From richard at idcomm.com Wed Nov 1 00:29:01 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:28 2005 Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024 References: <009201c041e8$1d955d40$59779a8d@ajp166><14844.40088.72034.420835@phaduka.neurotica.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001031094950.026c6dc0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <003001c043cd$075d8520$8e483cd1@winbook> Yes, you can, but you can't buy a single-chip microcontroller, using the Z80 core, not some "sorta" Z80-like" thing, that requires no external components except a clock. If it has to have external memory, external peripherals, or anything other than the oscillator, then the parts count will be too high. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck McManis To: Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 8:52 AM Subject: Re: Monitor for iSBC 8024 > Due to a failure in filters I read: > >Single-chipper is the key term, though. The Z80 isn't a single-chipper, nor > >is the 64180 or the Z380, or the 6502. > > This statement is ambiguous at best. While you can still buy a Z80 MPU you > can also buy both "high integration" Z80's that have peripherals etc on > chip as well as Z80 "cores" for integration into FPGA's. > > --Chuck > > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 1 01:31:27 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: system/36 awefully quiet... In-Reply-To: <14847.44457.526813.811434@phaduka.neurotica.com> (message from Dave McGuire on Wed, 1 Nov 2000 00:44:09 -0500 (EST)) References: <14847.44457.526813.811434@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20001101073127.16931.qmail@brouhaha.com> > It wouldn't really be 220v center-tapped, though, at least not the > way I'm used to thinking about it. US Home wiring is usualy "split-phase". You are fed from a single phase of the distribution system. You're on the secondary of a transformer, which is 240V center-tapped. You get two hots and a neutral. Relative to the neutral, the hots are 180 degress apart. All of your 120V circuits are fed one hot and a neutral. This is one reason why the ancient practice of tying an appliance chassis to neutral has been disapproved for a long time. Suppose you have two of these appliances close together, but fed from different outlets which happen to be on the two different hots. If the outlets and the appliances are wired correctly, you can touch both because they're both on the neutral. But if anything's wired wrong, you'll get 120V or 240V through you. And the neutral being safe is potentially a lie anyhow. It's a current carrying conductor, so even though it's grounded at your service entrance, it have a non-trivial voltage elsewhere. Anyhow, your typical US residental 240V outlets, for ranges and clothes driers, usually only give you the two hots and ground, but NO neutral. The motors, heating elements, etc. get 240V and don't really have any use for a neutral. But some equipment may need 240V split phase with neutral. In this case the plug will have four pins (one for ground). There are different NEMA standard plugs and receptacles for the various configurations, with and without neutral. Three-phase is more complicated. Low-end three-phase stuff is usually 208V three-phase delta, so you'd have four pins (one for ground). This is fine for three-phase delta motors. But some things need three-phase wye (Y), which adds a neutral for a total of five pins. A lot of minicomputers that use three-phase power are wired this way. The advantage is that you can put a 120V device between any phase and neutral. Older equipment (or receptacles) may not have a ground. This is bad, especially if the equipment is not double-insulated. I'd advise anyone who is trying to figure out how to run big iron that doesn't simply plug in to an available outlet to consult an expert. And I don't claim to be one. But I've spent some time figuring out how to run PDP-11/70s and KL10s on other than the three-phase power DEC intended. (Much easier on the PDP-11/70 than on the KL10.) From jate at uwasa.fi Wed Nov 1 02:24:58 2000 From: jate at uwasa.fi (Jarkko Hermanni Teppo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: Old HP Stuff Available In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Tue, Oct 31, 2000 at 06:44:25PM +0000 References: <20001031091529.B26969@loisto.uwasa.fi> Message-ID: <20001101102458.B14493@loisto.uwasa.fi> On Tue, Oct 31, 2000 at 06:44:25PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > 68010 and probably the same HP DMA chip too. The DIO-I bus is pretty > > The DMA chip is a Motorola part, 68440 IIRC. It appears to br a 2-channel > version of the 68450 (which is 4 channels) > Argh, now I have rip open one of my machines. I was always under the illusion that the DMA chip/board in the 300 series was made by HP.. gotta check. Anyway, at least some of the hp300 machines have HP 98620 DMA "card". The 320 has 98620B, then there are revs 98620A and 98620C. At least the 380 (and 382) have 98620C which has 2 channels. I would *love* to have some *good* hardware docs for the 300-series (oh well, the 500-series too :) as I'm trying to hack together a driver for the parallel port on some of the 300-series machines. Finding reasonable information is, ummm, challenging. Anyway, I have the register definitions, I *think* I know how the FIFO behaves but I still have some things I don't know. And I still don't know how to build an SRM-network (sigh). -- Jarkko Teppo jate@uwasa.fi From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Nov 1 03:13:14 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: Using Toshiba XM3301B scsi cdrom on old MACs...help? In-Reply-To: "Claude.W" "Using Toshiba XM3301B scsi cdrom on old MACs...help?" (Oct 31, 22:07) References: <000701c043b0$d3c3bf20$2b00a8c0@Gamer_Claude.HOME> Message-ID: <10011010913.ZM12403@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 31, 22:07, Claude.W wrote: > > [ Attachment (multipart/alternative): 3891 bytes ] (BTW, please don't post HTML to the list) > Used a driver that sees cdrom drive (icon with scsi id for drive appears = > on os startup) as soon as iso9660 format cd is inserted, it reports that = > it cant read the disk, it reports the size of the data used up on disk = > and asks if I wanna format it or eject it... Probably the block size. The older Macs require the blocksize on the CDROM to be set to 512 bytes, as do older Suns and SGIs (newer machines work with normal 2048-byte blocks, and issue a SCSI command to reset the size). To fix this requires some minor surgery on the drive. This works for XM3301 and XM3401, but not XM3601 or later, BTW. I believe it works for XM5401 but I can't be sure about others. On the 3301/3401 PCB, there are two solder pads near the rear right corner. Each looks like two semicircles bridgeed together, and they might be labelled 0 and 1 -- if not, 0 is the one nearest the edge of the PCB. The default setting (for PCs) is for 2048-byte blocks. Cutting the bridge between the two halfs of either or both pads gives you 512-byte blocks; the resulting three possibilities are supposed to be for different systems: open, open Sun bootable open, shorted SGI bootable shorted, open generic 512-byte shorted, shorted normal 2048-byte (default) I've fitted a DIP switch to all my old Toshibas, so I can move them between systems fairly easily. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 1 02:35:58 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: DPS-6 and Ultimate OS (was: MULTICS...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > Sellam, what OS are you running on your DPS-6? About a decade ago Currently, none. The system is basically non-operational. > hard drive in an external cabinet. The DPS-6 system itself was a > large, double 19" rack, that was more empty space than utilized space; > one rack contained the open-reel magtape drive, the other contained > the card-cage and 5-1/4" floppy drive. A person could, literally, > have opened up one of the back doors of the cabinets and climbed > inside. I have the setup you describe: http://www.siconic.com/computers/dps6tall.jpg Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 1 07:23:24 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: system/36 awefully quiet... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001101082324.36ff1c4a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:08 PM 10/31/00 -0800, Don wrote: > > >On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Richard W. Schauer wrote: > >> On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Jim Arnott wrote: >> >> > goes to the frame, it's LIKELY 220/240 single phase. (that's what you >> >> > But then again, we ARE talking about a System 36. Just might be steam >> > powered! ;o) >> >> Why is everyone so down on the S/36? It's a great machine that kept many >> a business running for years. >> >> The 5360, as well as the 5340 (S/34), are 220 volt single phase (actually >> 2-phase if you want to be exact). The way I hook mine up is to open the > >Oh? What is the phase shift between the "2-phase"s? Isn't it really >just 220 volt center tapped? The phase shift is 180 degrees! :-) Yes, it's 220 VAC, center tapped and the center tap is tied to neutral (not ground). The neutrals aren't supposed to be tied to ground but a lot of people do it anyway. FWIW here in Florida, the code requires that all new contruction use four conductor outlets for split phase 220 (one neutral, two hot and one ground). Joe From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 1 07:47:34 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: MULTICS Installation, Halifax Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2B0@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Additionally, this is not a Honeywell 6180 being offered, > > but a DPS-8/M. > > I wonder if my DPS-6 could run Multics? I would like to think it has to > have some coolness factor other than being big and impressive :) No. The DPS-6 cannot run Multics. In fact, a DPS-8 can't run Multics, only the DPS-8/M can (in addition to the 6180 and GE 645). However, Multics could be re-implemented on any architecture that either provides a paged, segmented virtual memory with rings of protection, or, on any architecture fast enough that those features could be emulated. regards, -dq From enrico.badella at softstar.it Wed Nov 1 07:58:19 2000 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: DPS-6 and Ultimate OS (was: MULTICS...) References: Message-ID: <3A00217B.402B275@softstar.it> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > > > Sellam, what OS are you running on your DPS-6? About a decade ago > > Currently, none. The system is basically non-operational. Nice system Sellam! I've never seem one close; do you have some more photos with details of the middle and right cabinet Cheers e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 1 08:13:28 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: MULTICS Installation, Halifax Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2B2@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I wonder if my DPS-6 could run Multics? I would like to think it has to > > have some coolness factor other than being big and impressive :) > > Having worked on both (although in the case of the DPS-6 only briefly) I'm > fairly sure that they're not. For one thing IIRC, GCOS-6 and GCOS-8 were at > least somewhat different. > > What someone really needs to do is write a freeware emulator for the DPS-8. > I know at least one commercial DPS-6 emulator exists. And, no, I'm not > about to tackle writing one. > > Personally I think the DPS-6 is a bit boring, but a multiprocessor DPS-8 > configuration is a really cool piece of hardware! We only just in the last few weeks finally got a listing of the full DPS-8/M instruction set (or was it the Level 68?) posted to the web. So at least one of the most important resources for getting started is now available... -dq From at258 at osfn.org Wed Nov 1 09:00:05 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: DPS-6 and Ultimate OS (was: MULTICS...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have the same, and often hide in the tape cabinet. On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > > > Sellam, what OS are you running on your DPS-6? About a decade ago > > Currently, none. The system is basically non-operational. > > > hard drive in an external cabinet. The DPS-6 system itself was a > > large, double 19" rack, that was more empty space than utilized space; > > one rack contained the open-reel magtape drive, the other contained > > the card-cage and 5-1/4" floppy drive. A person could, literally, > > have opened up one of the back doors of the cabinets and climbed > > inside. > > I have the setup you describe: > > http://www.siconic.com/computers/dps6tall.jpg > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Wed Nov 1 09:03:30 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: CP/M {history} In-Reply-To: <00c201c043b9$95d467b0$2f799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <000801c04414$e5c87c10$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com> P.S. Looking for nominations for the "Best book ever written on Gary Kildall" award. John A. From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com Wed Nov 1 09:10:33 2000 From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: Using Toshiba XM3301B scsi cdrom on old MACs...help? In-Reply-To: <000701c043b0$d3c3bf20$2b00a8c0@Gamer_Claude.HOME> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001101084858.00c9fbf0@192.168.210.18> Hi Claude, >Trying to use these on old compact MACs and MAC IIs using Mac OS 7.5.5 Heh. You have come up against a great MacOS / hardware annoyance. First thing you need to know, is that support for non-Apple CD-ROM drives is (criminally?) poor in versions of MacOS prior to 7.6; things seemed to get a little better after the introduction of 7.6. Your problems are very typical, so don't feel too badly. If you were using a "Genuine Apple" CD drive, (with blessed firmware) this would all be easier. This is very similar to the situation with the "Apple HD/SC Setup", which also handily ignores hard drives with non-Apple firmware. This further supports my assertion that we are all quite lucky that it's Bill Gates, and not Steve Jobs who is the de-facto dictator of the micro computing world - but I digress. Have you tried an HFS CD-ROM in the XM3301 drive? I suspect you will find that the driver will mount an HFS CD - support for ISO9660 filesystems was another weak point in this era, for both Apple and non-Apple drives. On the other hand, I have had two of the NEC Multi-Spin (3X and 6X) drives, which perfectly handle both HFS and ISO9660 using the proprietary NEC driver (which incidentally, does not see drives from other manufacturers). Also, there is an excellent generic CD-ROM driver for Mac, known as "Sunrise CD" which supports just about any CD drive, but it does NOT support the ISO9660 filesystem. It's clear from your experiment with the Pioneer drive, that neither the OS nor the hardware is broken - I am laying this one at the feet of Apple, who seem to have made a conscious effort to exclude third party hardware from the Mac realm, with some measure of success. My suggestions: get a Genuine Apple CD drive, use a third-party drive with a working proprietary driver (such as Pioneer or NEC) upgrade to OS 7.6 or later, or just keep shooting craps; YMMV. Bill Layer Sales Technician +----------------------------------+ Viking Electronics, Inc. 1531 Industrial St. Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A 715.386.8861 ext. 210 +----------------------------------+ "Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century" From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 1 09:53:00 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement In-Reply-To: <200011010444.UAA10154@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200011010444.UAA10154@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: Actually, I rather like CP/M 3.0 on the Osborne Executive myself. Jeff > > I show that DR copyrighted CP/M in May, 1976. Around what >> time did they actually start shipping it and what was the first >> 'usable' release? > >You call CP/M useable? >;-) > >(very fond of CP/M 3.0+ on the Commodore 128,) -- Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jjackson at salsa-digital.com Wed Nov 1 10:44:43 2000 From: jjackson at salsa-digital.com (James Jackson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: Hello from a new member Message-ID: <3A00487B.8C7A276C@salsa-digital.com> Hello, I found this group while looking for information on an archaic computer system. I have several systems at home that may qualify as 'classic' computers... a Heathkit 6500 computer trainer (I think) with documentation SWTPC 6800 - in storage with a hefty 4k RAM Amiga 1000 Amiga 4000 ...and a few others. I am going home tonight to look at them and see if I might have something of interest for someone else. Intel (360?) Multi-Bus I system used for development... complete with software and manuals. I also have much documentation. I'm a packrat when it comes to User's Manuals. But it is now time to clean out the storage room. I have information for those of you with Amiga 4000's for repairing your A3640 CPU boards. This is on my web site. Also - for replacing the capacitors in the Audio section. (This applies to any of the Amiga series. They used polarized caps in a uni-polar output stage of an op-amp.) Regards, James Jackson James Jackson Oztronics 1631 Escalon Ave., Suite B San Antonio, TX 78221-3126 210-921-1758 FX: 210-921-0124 http://joj.home.texas.net From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 1 12:02:56 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: CP/M {history} In-Reply-To: <000801c04414$e5c87c10$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com> References: <00c201c043b9$95d467b0$2f799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001101130256.0b4f992e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hmm, what books did he write? I don't think I've ever seen any that he wrote, except perhaps for the CP/M manuals. I have seen some good articles that he wrote. Joe At 10:03 AM 11/1/00 -0500, you wrote: > >P.S. Looking for nominations for the > "Best book ever written on Gary Kildall" > award. > >John A. > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 1 11:59:28 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement In-Reply-To: References: <200011010444.UAA10154@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <200011010444.UAA10154@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001101125928.45e79e7c@mailhost.intellistar.net> I used to think that CP/M was great but I just got a system with ZCPR3 and it's dynamite! Joe At 10:53 AM 11/1/00 -0500, you wrote: > Actually, I rather like CP/M 3.0 on the Osborne Executive myself. > > Jeff > >> > I show that DR copyrighted CP/M in May, 1976. Around what >>> time did they actually start shipping it and what was the first >>> 'usable' release? >> >>You call CP/M useable? >;-) >> >>(very fond of CP/M 3.0+ on the Commodore 128,) >-- > Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 1 11:25:12 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: system/36 awefully quiet... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001101082324.36ff1c4a@mailhost.intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Wed, 01 Nov 2000 08:23:24 -0500) References: <3.0.1.16.20001101082324.36ff1c4a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20001101172512.22087.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The phase shift is 180 degrees! :-) Yes, it's 220 VAC, center tapped > and the center tap is tied to neutral (not ground). The neutrals aren't > supposed to be tied to ground but a lot of people do it anyway. Unless things are much different in Florida, the neutral is supposed to be tied to ground in *exactly* one place for the entire building, and that place is at the main breaker panel. So I assume you meant that people add additional neutral-ground connections elsewhere, which is *bad*. > FWIW here in Florida, the code requires that all new contruction use > four conductor outlets for split phase 220 (one neutral, two hot and > one ground). Interesting. While I approve on the basis of it being more useful, I don't understand why the building or electrical would require this. It doesn't appear to offer any safety advantage. I should rephrase that. Split phase with neutral doesn't offer any safety advantage over correctly-used split-phase without neutral. But I suppose if morons have been abusing the ground wire as a neutral, that would be likely to burn down some buildings. So I suppose the code has been updated in an attempt to avoid that situation. From hansp at digiweb.com Wed Nov 1 12:30:11 2000 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: MULTICS Installation, Halifax References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2B2@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3A006133.75E182DC@digiweb.com> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > We only just in the last few weeks finally got a listing of the > full DPS-8/M instruction set (or was it the Level 68?) posted to > the web. So at least one of the most important resources for > getting started is now available... Oh, do you have a link? -- Hans B Pufal From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 1 11:29:40 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: DPS-6 and Ultimate OS (was: MULTICS...) In-Reply-To: <3A00217B.402B275@softstar.it> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Enrico Badella wrote: > Nice system Sellam! I've never seem one close; do you have some more > photos with details of the middle and right cabinet Sorry, I don't. I'll try to take some next time I visit them and have my digital camera with me. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 1 12:53:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: Old HP Stuff Available In-Reply-To: <20001101102458.B14493@loisto.uwasa.fi> from "Jarkko Hermanni Teppo" at Nov 1, 0 10:24:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 635 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001101/8499c155/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 1 14:11:17 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement In-Reply-To: <00c201c043b9$95d467b0$2f799a8d@ajp166> References: <00c201c043b9$95d467b0$2f799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: Certainly even the earliest of CP/M releases offered more than the North Star DOS that would've shipped with thier disk systems? This system included DOS ver. 2 and BASIC ver. 6, Release 3 and is also copyright 1977. Jeff >-----Original Message----- > > I show that DR copyrighted CP/M in May, 1976. Around what >>time did they actually start shipping it and what was the first > >'usable' release? > >There was 1.2 but usable is not what I'd call it. I'd say 1.4 >was the first commercially viable version but, 1.3 was the >first complete working one. > >Allison -- Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From THETechnoid at home.com Wed Nov 1 17:15:50 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:30 2005 Subject: system/36 awefully quiet... In-Reply-To: <20001101172512.22087.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20001101230832.XVKJ2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> What ground? ;-) I live in an older house with cloth-covered wireing and no three prong jacks except in the laundry room, the kitchen, and the bathroom. I know, I'll get around to rewiring, but everything has been running just great groundlessly. You don't want to walk barefoot on the slab in the basement and touch anything metal though..... Regards, Jeff In <20001101172512.22087.qmail@brouhaha.com>, on 11/01/00 at 06:15 PM, Eric Smith said: >> The phase shift is 180 degrees! :-) Yes, it's 220 VAC, center tapped >> and the center tap is tied to neutral (not ground). The neutrals aren't >> supposed to be tied to ground but a lot of people do it anyway. >Unless things are much different in Florida, the neutral is supposed to >be tied to ground in *exactly* one place for the entire building, and >that place is at the main breaker panel. So I assume you meant that >people add additional neutral-ground connections elsewhere, which is >*bad*. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 1 15:07:46 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: Hello from a new member In-Reply-To: <3A00487B.8C7A276C@salsa-digital.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001101160746.3a3f26e0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi James, Welcome to the group. At 10:44 AM 11/1/00 -0600, you wrote: >Hello, > >I found this group while looking for information on an archaic computer >system. > >I have several systems at home that may qualify as 'classic' >computers... > >a Heathkit 6500 computer trainer (I think) with documentation I think you mean the 6800 CPU trainer, model number ET-3400. I have one of those. > >SWTPC 6800 - in storage with a hefty 4k RAM Nice! You don't see 6800 systems very often. I'm the lucky(?) owner of a Tektronix 4051 with a 6800 CPU. > >Amiga 1000 > >Amiga 4000 > >...and a few others. > >I am going home tonight to look at them and see if I might have >something of interest for someone else. > >Intel (360?) Multi-Bus I system used for development... complete with >software and manuals. I'd like to hear more about this one. The Intel stuff is surprisingly rare considering how common it used to be. I'm in the process of creating a website for them. I have an Intel MDS 225 that's been severly upgraded. I also have a lot of docs and software for mine. Mine has been upgraded to a Series III. > >I also have much documentation. I'm a packrat when it comes to User's >Manuals. Same here. Joe From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 1 17:38:19 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024 Message-ID: <003c01c0445d$19525f90$ea789a8d@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher >Yes, you can, but you can't buy a single-chip microcontroller, using the Z80 >core, not some "sorta" Z80-like" thing, that requires no external components >except a clock. Who really cares howmany angels can dance on the head of a pin. As most products are rarely just one chip, especially something that needs Z80 level performance. In the end the skills needed would be Z80(or some other) programming. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 1 17:47:16 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement Message-ID: <006a01c0445f$36d255f0$ea789a8d@ajp166> From: Joe > I used to think that CP/M was great but I just got a system with ZCPR3 >and it's dynamite! > > Joe To make a point. ZCPRx is CP/M! ZCPR is a replacement for the rather anemic CCP (console command processor) and a few additional utilities. Of ten the BDOS and BIOS are unchanged and that is the core of CP/M. The CCP is user interface. The DOS analog of that would be Windows3.1 is not DOS. See the point! Now ZRDOS or ZSDOS is a totally different codebase and non DRI product that is CP/M compatable and draws form the ZCPRx lineage. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 1 17:54:01 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement Message-ID: <006b01c0445f$37c9d550$ea789a8d@ajp166> From: Jeff Hellige > Certainly even the earliest of CP/M releases offered more >than the North Star DOS that would've shipped with thier disk >systems? This system included DOS ver. 2 and BASIC ver. 6, Release 3 >and is also copyright 1977. Actually no. NSdos was a simpler file system but actually robust and very fast. It lacked editor/assember/debugger but did have a good set of diags for ram, monitor and NS* BASIC. Which for it's time was pretty good. Also it could boot in as little as 4k of ram and run basic in 24k. Allison From THETechnoid at home.com Wed Nov 1 18:12:11 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: Vaxstation 4000/60 Prom help please In-Reply-To: <3A00487B.8C7A276C@salsa-digital.com> Message-ID: <20001102000520.ZKZS2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Hi! I've had trouble with hard disks and my vaxstation 4000/60. It won't take some drives but will run my two Quantum scsi drives. I was thinking this might be that the drives are formatted for the wrong sector size? If this is a reasonable theory then I'd like to know how to low-level scsi drives on the vax. I found some info on the vaxstation 3100 which refers to "test 75" contained in the prom but no info on my machine's prom to speak of. Is there a manual anywhere on the web which documents the vaxstation 4000/60's prom? Thanks, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From spc at conman.org Wed Nov 1 18:06:09 2000 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: MULTICS Installation, Halifax In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2B0@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Nov 01, 2000 08:47:34 AM Message-ID: <200011020006.TAA03797@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Douglas Quebbeman once stated: > > However, Multics could be re-implemented on any architecture > that either provides a paged, segmented virtual memory with > rings of protection, or, on any architecture fast enough that > those features could be emulated. Like the Intel 80386 or higher. -spc (Now I have to find info on Multics ... ) From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 1 19:00:02 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: MULTICS Installation, Halifax In-Reply-To: <200011020006.TAA03797@conman.org> References: <200011020006.TAA03797@conman.org> Message-ID: Try the following URL...it gives a lot of info on Multics, including a great deal of history. http://www.multicians.org/ Jeff >It was thus said that the Great Douglas Quebbeman once stated: >> >> However, Multics could be re-implemented on any architecture >> that either provides a paged, segmented virtual memory with >> rings of protection, or, on any architecture fast enough that >> those features could be emulated. > > Like the Intel 80386 or higher. > > -spc (Now I have to find info on Multics ... ) -- Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 1 19:06:21 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: system/36 awefully quiet... In-Reply-To: <20001101230832.XVKJ2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Nov 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > What ground? ;-) > > I live in an older house with cloth-covered wireing and no three prong > jacks except in the laundry room, the kitchen, and the bathroom. I know, > I'll get around to rewiring, but everything has been running just great > groundlessly. Your basement has a lot of those nifty two-piece cylindrical ceramic wire clamps nailed amongs the joists overhead, perhaps? - don > You don't want to walk barefoot on the slab in the basement and touch > anything metal though..... > > Regards, > > Jeff > > > In <20001101172512.22087.qmail@brouhaha.com>, on 11/01/00 > at 06:15 PM, Eric Smith said: > > >> The phase shift is 180 degrees! :-) Yes, it's 220 VAC, center tapped > >> and the center tap is tied to neutral (not ground). The neutrals aren't > >> supposed to be tied to ground but a lot of people do it anyway. > > >Unless things are much different in Florida, the neutral is supposed to > >be tied to ground in *exactly* one place for the entire building, and > >that place is at the main breaker panel. So I assume you meant that > >people add additional neutral-ground connections elsewhere, which is > >*bad*. > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > President > Complete Computer Services, Inc. > 30 Greenwood Rd. > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-277-5959 > Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com > THETechnoid@home.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 1 19:24:45 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement In-Reply-To: <006b01c0445f$37c9d550$ea789a8d@ajp166> References: <006b01c0445f$37c9d550$ea789a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: NSdos is what I plan on doing the initial tests of the machine with anyway, given it's smaller memory requirement. It's manuals seem to do a decent job at describing how to config it for various hardware. With luck, at least one of these hard-sectored diskettes will still prove usable! Jeff >Actually no. NSdos was a simpler file system but actually robust and >very fast. It lacked editor/assember/debugger but did have a good set of >diags for ram, monitor and NS* BASIC. Which for it's time was pretty >good. Also it could boot in as little as 4k of ram and run basic in 24k. > >Allison -- Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From thompson at mail.athenet.net Wed Nov 1 20:13:55 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: ultrix disktab entry for an RF73? Message-ID: Greetings I have an elderly version of ultrix (4.2A) which knows nothing of disks of mind boggling capacity such as the two gigabyte RF73. Does anyone have a later version of Ultrix with the dimensions of this disk specified in the /etc/disktab file? (p.s. has anyone else noticed that Altavista seems to be lamed deliberately or otherwise so that Linux or Netscape clients can no longer search properly? I have noticed this for a couple of weeks...I go into work and use Internet Extorter on NT and everything is fine.) Thanks in advance Paul From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Nov 1 21:10:46 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: DG Nova 1200 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001031153839.094f8274@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.1.20001101220902.00ab65d0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 03:38 PM 10/31/00 -0500, Joe said something like: > Does anyone have any info on the Data General Nova 1200? > > Joe Hi Joe, I've got a couple of 1200's plus some docs. What would you like to know? Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Nov 1 21:19:50 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: TRS80 PT210 and other finds... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.20001101221602.00abae10@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:33 PM 10/31/00 -0800, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) said something like: >> On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Hans Franke wrote: >> > Possible - it seams like you got way to much stuff. >> > As a matter of our friendship I may offer my help >> > and order a 40' container to help - I may even pay >> > the shiping cost :) > >On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: >> Hans, bring a few containers. You can have it all. Come and get it. >> Don't say I never did anything nice for you :) > >In the interest of international relations, we'll ALL help fill Hans' >containerS. Right on Fred! I've got almost half of my garage full of big DEC gear Hans could use as swapping material in Deutschland. (You've seen it Hans) Servus, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From ysgdhio at yahoo.com Wed Nov 1 21:29:52 2000 From: ysgdhio at yahoo.com (Andreas Meyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: VT05 ? In-Reply-To: ; from Mzthompson@aol.com on Tue, Oct 31, 2000 at 05:01:52PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20001101222952.A7846@spies.com> I'm sure someone here can tell me... Does the DEC VT05 terminal use RS232 or is it 20ma loop? Thanks, Andy From vaxman at uswest.net Wed Nov 1 21:34:44 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: ultrix disktab entry for an RF73? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Paul, Most of the information in /etc/disktab is useless nowdays. The number of cylinders, heads, etc can safely be left out without any problems. What you do need is to decide on a partition table for the drive. I usually choose the largest drive listed, copy it to my new drive, and tweak the partitions covering the end of the drive to cover the additional cylinders of my new drive. IE partitions a,b are the same, c and h? are enlarged. As to AltaVista, Netscape seems to have a problem with the Java AltaVista uses to get stuff from doubleclick.net. This basically locks netscape up (even disables button clicks in OTHER windows) until it draws the stupid ad. I use I.E. to search, and Netscape to surf :) clint On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Paul Thompson wrote: > Greetings > > I have an elderly version of ultrix (4.2A) which knows nothing of disks of > mind boggling capacity such as the two gigabyte RF73. > > Does anyone have a later version of Ultrix with the dimensions of this > disk specified in the /etc/disktab file? > > (p.s. has anyone else noticed that Altavista seems to be lamed > deliberately or otherwise so that Linux or Netscape clients can no longer > search properly? I have noticed this for a couple of weeks...I go into > work and use Internet Extorter on NT and everything is fine.) > > Thanks in advance > Paul > > > > > > From thompson at mail.athenet.net Wed Nov 1 22:03:56 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: ultrix disktab entry for an RF73? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the information I found another solution as well. The old DSNlink database gave me the total number of sectors on the RF73 and identified a RZ73 disk with the same characteristics. On an old alpha at work was a disktab entry for a RZ73. I was able to munge the RZ73 information into a RF73 disktab. I was only interested in the C partition so the others may or may not be valid: rf73|RF73|DEC RF73 Winchester:\ :ty=winchester:ns#71:nt#21:nc#2621:\ :pa#131072:ba#8192:fa#1024:\ :pb#262144:bb#4096:fb#1024:\ :pc#3907911:bc#8192:fc#1024:\ :pd#15884:bd#8192:fd#1024:\ :pe#307200:be#8192:fe#1024:\ :pf#542575:bf#8192:ff#1024:\ :pg#291346:bg#8192:fg#1024: And here it is mounted on /scratch Filesystem Total kbytes kbytes % node kbytes used free used Mounted on /dev/ra2a 15823 11632 2609 82% / /dev/ra2g 445823 257260 143981 64% /usr /dev/ra1c 368126 88626 242688 27% /usr/users /dev/ra0c 1909325 232433 1485960 14% /scratch On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > > Hi Paul, > > Most of the information in /etc/disktab is useless nowdays. The > number of cylinders, heads, etc can safely be left out without > any problems. > > What you do need is to decide on a partition table for the drive. > I usually choose the largest drive listed, copy it to my new drive, > and tweak the partitions covering the end of the drive to cover > the additional cylinders of my new drive. IE partitions a,b are the > same, c and h? are enlarged. > snip > > clint > > > On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > Greetings > > > > I have an elderly version of ultrix (4.2A) which knows nothing of disks of > > mind boggling capacity such as the two gigabyte RF73. snip From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Nov 1 22:11:34 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: ultrix disktab entry for an RF73? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001101200645.00ab1e20@208.226.86.10> As the RF73 is a DSSI disk the notion of "cylinders, sectors, etc" are not as useful as they were on the old MFM, SMD, and ESDI drives. In particular the controller simply returns the block you asked for and does its own access sorting. In NetBSD you can query the raw device to get the total sectors (I don't know if you can do this in Ultrix or not). Anyway, if you do that then you can factor that total number and make up some cylinder/heads/sectors numbers. As for AltaVista I gave it up for Google.com, why? because google's search page is advertisement free and it returns better hits than Altavista does. --Chuck At 08:13 PM 11/1/00 -0600, Paul Thompson wrote: >Greetings > >I have an elderly version of ultrix (4.2A) which knows nothing of disks of >mind boggling capacity such as the two gigabyte RF73. > >Does anyone have a later version of Ultrix with the dimensions of this >disk specified in the /etc/disktab file? > >(p.s. has anyone else noticed that Altavista seems to be lamed >deliberately or otherwise so that Linux or Netscape clients can no longer >search properly? I have noticed this for a couple of weeks...I go into >work and use Internet Extorter on NT and everything is fine.) > >Thanks in advance >Paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 1 22:23:57 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: VT05 ? Message-ID: <00b801c04485$10a21250$ea789a8d@ajp166> From: Andreas Meyer > >I'm sure someone here can tell me... >Does the DEC VT05 terminal use RS232 or is it 20ma loop? In a word. Yes. Both. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 1 22:22:13 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement Message-ID: <00b701c04485$0ffd1fc0$ea789a8d@ajp166> From: Jeff Hellige > NSdos is what I plan on doing the initial tests of the >machine with anyway, given it's smaller memory requirement. It's >manuals seem to do a decent job at describing how to config it for >various hardware. With luck, at least one of these hard-sectored >diskettes will still prove usable! NS* DOS is a good place to start. Once you have the IO right for that then doing it for CP/M will be fairly easy. Allison From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed Nov 1 23:27:27 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: ultrix disktab entry for an RF73? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001101200645.00ab1e20@208.226.86.10> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20001102002727.01b7853c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 08:11 PM 11/1/00 -0800, you wrote: >As the RF73 is a DSSI disk the notion of "cylinders, sectors, etc" are not >as useful as they were on the old MFM, SMD, and ESDI drives. In particular >the controller simply returns the block you asked for and does its own >access sorting. > >In NetBSD you can query the raw device to get the total sectors (I don't >know if you can do this in Ultrix or not). Anyway, if you do that then you >can factor that total number and make up some cylinder/heads/sectors numbers. Very true. However, have you noticed how insistent the NetBSD guys are about assigning a whole cylinder (however artificial the concept of a cylinder may be at this stage, especially after auto map-out of defective sectors) to the boot block? Yes, their boot block spills past the partition table, but to insist on skipping a whole cylinder when assigning the "a" partition, aw, c'mon... I recently installed a system in which following their advice would have meant to forgo about 2MB of storage... >As for AltaVista I gave it up for Google.com, why? because google's search >page is advertisement free and it returns better hits than Altavista does. > >--Chuck ... and if you can use it w/o IE, that's a major plus. One of my pet peeves is when some app that doesn't really have to do with html insists on installing IE so that you can browse its "improved" help/docs (In particular, Digital Visual Fortran). It took a long time, but I actually managed once to modify all that registry crap so that DVF's help works with netscape. Otherwise, I would not have used their help system. Simply put. carlos. From THETechnoid at home.com Wed Nov 1 23:36:25 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: Google In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001101200645.00ab1e20@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20001102052917.KTXN2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> I have to agree. Though Google returns a lot of unuseable information, it has proved to be my best resource when searching the impossible. Google is the God of search engines. I'd use it even if the did have as as do most competitors. Why don't they have ads? It mystifies me. Regards, Jeff As for AltaVista I gave it up for Google.com, why? because google's search page is advertisement free and it returns better hits than Altavista does. --Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 2 02:35:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: Levco transputer? In-Reply-To: <00b801c04485$10a21250$ea789a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: I was just doing some digging on the Levco Prodigy 4 16 mhz 68030 board for the mac SE when I turned up a couple references to a Levco transputer. Specifically there is apparently an article about it in the November 1988 Byte magazine pages 213, 216, and 292. Anybody know more, sounds like it was a typical Inmos part on a nubus card for the mac II series. There is a picture of something on this site, but its all in japanese. http://www.fsinet.or.jp/~somethin/Backnumber000131.htm From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Thu Nov 2 05:33:51 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: Levco transputer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Nov 2000 00:35:27 -0800 Mike Ford wrote: > I was just doing some digging on the Levco Prodigy 4 16 mhz 68030 board for > the mac SE when I turned up a couple references to a Levco transputer. > Specifically there is apparently an article about it in the November 1988 > Byte magazine pages 213, 216, and 292. Anybody know more, sounds like it > was a typical Inmos part on a nubus card for the mac II series. > > There is a picture of something on this site, but its all in japanese. > > http://www.fsinet.or.jp/~somethin/Backnumber000131.htm Judging by the (rather small) photo, it has four transputers and SIMM memory on a NuBus card. There's a fifth PGA chip at the far left-hand end, which may be a C004 link switch, or possibly a T212. I don't know whether this is a link-adaptor interface board or a shared-memory interface. We never saw any Mac-based transputer cards at INMOS, mainly because the Mac was regarded by many as a simple computer for stupid people. I wouldn't agree with that (and I certainly don't want to start a flame war), but it did mean that INMOS did almost nothing with transputers in Mac hosts. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 2 09:00:37 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement In-Reply-To: References: <006b01c0445f$37c9d550$ea789a8d@ajp166> <006b01c0445f$37c9d550$ea789a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001102100037.353f6888@mailhost.intellistar.net> Jeff, If you need help, I have a couple of NS manuals and I have some HS disks with NS BASIC and some other programs on them. I also have a NS MDS-A disk controller card. I don't want to part with any of it but I could loan it out. Joe At 08:24 PM 11/1/00 -0500, you wrote: > NSdos is what I plan on doing the initial tests of the >machine with anyway, given it's smaller memory requirement. It's >manuals seem to do a decent job at describing how to config it for >various hardware. With luck, at least one of these hard-sectored >diskettes will still prove usable! > > Jeff > >>Actually no. NSdos was a simpler file system but actually robust and >>very fast. It lacked editor/assember/debugger but did have a good set of >>diags for ram, monitor and NS* BASIC. Which for it's time was pretty >>good. Also it could boot in as little as 4k of ram and run basic in 24k. >> >>Allison > >-- > Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 2 08:42:33 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement In-Reply-To: <006a01c0445f$36d255f0$ea789a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001102094233.353ffd9a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:47 PM 11/1/00 -0500, you wrote: >From: Joe > > >> I used to think that CP/M was great but I just got a system with >ZCPR3 >>and it's dynamite! >> >> Joe > > >To make a point. ZCPRx is CP/M! Thanks but I figured that out from the source code listings. ZCPR is a replacement for the >rather anemic CCP (console command processor) and a few >additional utilities. Correct. The command processor and utilities are *MUCH* better than those in CP/M. The difference is like night and day! > Of ten the BDOS and BIOS are unchanged >and that is the core of CP/M. The CCP is user interface. > >The DOS analog of that would be Windows3.1 is not DOS. >See the point! ????? I don't understand this comment. Or at least I hope I don't. ZCPR isn't a GUI. It's nothing like Windozes, it's a MUCH better command line interface. > >Now ZRDOS or ZSDOS is a totally different codebase and >non DRI product that is CP/M compatable and draws form >the ZCPRx lineage. I can't say that I've ever heard of them. BTW one of my current projects uses MP/M. CP/M is childs play compared to it! The hardwre isn't that much more complicated but the operating system is MUCH more complex. Joe > >Allison > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 2 08:56:14 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: Google In-Reply-To: <20001102052917.KTXN2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci22322 9-a> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001101200645.00ab1e20@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001102095614.353f8b6a@mailhost.intellistar.net> I don't know but enjoy it while you can! I gave up on Yahoo, Hotbot and the others because they took too blasted long to load (and still didn't find as much). Joe At 12:36 AM 11/2/00 -0500, Jeff wrote: >I have to agree. Though Google returns a lot of unuseable information, it >has proved to be my best resource when searching the impossible. Google >is the God of search engines. I'd use it even if the did have as as do >most competitors. > >Why don't they have ads? It mystifies me. > >Regards, > >Jeff > > >As for AltaVista I gave it up for Google.com, why? because google's search > page is advertisement free and it returns better hits than Altavista >does. > >--Chuck > > >-- >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jeffrey S. Worley >President >Complete Computer Services, Inc. >30 Greenwood Rd. >Asheville, NC 28803 >828-277-5959 >Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com >THETechnoid@home.com >----------------------------------------------------------- > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 2 08:06:58 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: system/36 awefully quiet... In-Reply-To: <20001101230832.XVKJ2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci22322 9-a> References: <20001101172512.22087.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001102090658.3547d7f8@mailhost.intellistar.net> Jeff, It sounds to me like you don't want to live very long. Big power hungery computers and old inadaquete wiring just don't work well together. Joe At 06:15 PM 11/1/00 -0500, Jeff wrote: >What ground? ;-) > >I live in an older house with cloth-covered wireing and no three prong >jacks except in the laundry room, the kitchen, and the bathroom. I know, >I'll get around to rewiring, but everything has been running just great >groundlessly. > >You don't want to walk barefoot on the slab in the basement and touch >anything metal though..... > >Regards, > >Jeff > > >In <20001101172512.22087.qmail@brouhaha.com>, on 11/01/00 > at 06:15 PM, Eric Smith said: > >>> The phase shift is 180 degrees! :-) Yes, it's 220 VAC, center tapped >>> and the center tap is tied to neutral (not ground). The neutrals aren't >>> supposed to be tied to ground but a lot of people do it anyway. > >>Unless things are much different in Florida, the neutral is supposed to >>be tied to ground in *exactly* one place for the entire building, and >>that place is at the main breaker panel. So I assume you meant that >>people add additional neutral-ground connections elsewhere, which is >>*bad*. > >-- >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jeffrey S. Worley >President >Complete Computer Services, Inc. >30 Greenwood Rd. >Asheville, NC 28803 >828-277-5959 >Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com >THETechnoid@home.com >----------------------------------------------------------- > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 2 08:23:49 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: MULTICS Installation, Halifax Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2CC@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > It was thus said that the Great Douglas Quebbeman once stated: > > > > However, Multics could be re-implemented on any architecture > > that either provides a paged, segmented virtual memory with > > rings of protection, or, on any architecture fast enough that > > those features could be emulated. > > Like the Intel 80386 or higher. > > -spc (Now I have to find info on Multics ... ) I should have mentioned that Multics also was closely tied to a 36-bit word size... a re-implementation could probably get around this, but a port would be difficult... However, a port would work for an emulator, where you'd have control of all aspects of the target architecture. Regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 2 08:31:01 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: ZCPR & Other CP/M Extensions (Was: RE: CP/M 1.3 memory requiremen t) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2CD@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > At 06:47 PM 11/1/00 -0500, you wrote: > >From: Joe > > > >>I used to think that CP/M was great but I just got a > >>system with ZCPR3 and it's dynamite! > >> > >> Joe > > > >To make a point. ZCPRx is CP/M! I spent a log of time customizing ZCPR 2.2, but never got around to moving to ZCPR3. Can anyone give a thumbnail sketch of the differences, keeping in mind that I'm fairly familiar with the 2.2 version? In addition to tweaking & adding stuff to ZCPR2.2, I also adapted someone else's take on implementing resident system extensions (RSXs) under CP/M 2.2/ZCPR, as well as putting together a small library of RSXs that would work with it (as well as CP/M 3). Any interest in that stuff? I think the floppies may still be readable... -dq From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 2 08:55:54 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001102100037.353f6888@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <006b01c0445f$37c9d550$ea789a8d@ajp166> <006b01c0445f$37c9d550$ea789a8d@ajp166> <3.0.1.16.20001102100037.353f6888@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: Joe, Thanks but I have all the parts and manuals...it's just a matter of making a small repair to the PSU for the floppy and seeing if it all still works. I'm sure the list will likely hear about it once I start to tinker with it again. Jeff >Jeff, > > If you need help, I have a couple of NS manuals and I have some HS disks >with NS BASIC and some other programs on them. I also have a NS MDS-A disk >controller card. I don't want to part with any of it but I could loan it out. > > Joe > -- Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 2 09:07:35 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: MULTICS Installation, Halifax Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2CE@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > We only just in the last few weeks finally got a listing of the > > full DPS-8/M instruction set (or was it the Level 68?) posted to > > the web. So at least one of the most important resources for > > getting started is now available... > > Oh, do you have a link? You'll find them near the bottom of: http://www.multicians.org/features.html -dq From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 2 10:21:41 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: ZCPR & Other CP/M Extensions (Was: RE: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2CD@tegntserver.tegjeff .com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001102112141.0f6f9d08@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, Yes, I'm interested in the disks! A friend of mine wants to try and install it on a H-89. I'll look through my ZCPR stuff and see if I can find out what the differences are in verson 2.2 and 3.0 and report later. Joe At 09:31 AM 11/2/00 -0500, you wrote: >> At 06:47 PM 11/1/00 -0500, you wrote: >> >From: Joe >> > >> >>I used to think that CP/M was great but I just got a >> >>system with ZCPR3 and it's dynamite! >> >> >> >> Joe >> > >> >To make a point. ZCPRx is CP/M! > >I spent a log of time customizing ZCPR 2.2, but never >got around to moving to ZCPR3. > >Can anyone give a thumbnail sketch of the differences, >keeping in mind that I'm fairly familiar with the 2.2 >version? > >In addition to tweaking & adding stuff to ZCPR2.2, I >also adapted someone else's take on implementing >resident system extensions (RSXs) under CP/M 2.2/ZCPR, >as well as putting together a small library of RSXs >that would work with it (as well as CP/M 3). > >Any interest in that stuff? I think the floppies may >still be readable... > >-dq > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 2 10:43:25 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:32 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20001102100037.353f6888@mailhost.intellistar.net> <006b01c0445f$37c9d550$ea789a8d@ajp166> <006b01c0445f$37c9d550$ea789a8d@ajp166> <3.0.1.16.20001102100037.353f6888@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001102114325.0f1f0ac6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Jeff, OK, good luck. Keep us posted about what you find, I need to do the same with one of my computers. Joe At 09:55 AM 11/2/00 -0500, you wrote: >Joe, > > Thanks but I have all the parts and manuals...it's just a >matter of making a small repair to the PSU for the floppy and seeing >if it all still works. I'm sure the list will likely hear about it >once I start to tinker with it again. > > Jeff > >>Jeff, >> >> If you need help, I have a couple of NS manuals and I have some HS disks >>with NS BASIC and some other programs on them. I also have a NS MDS-A disk >>controller card. I don't want to part with any of it but I could loan it out. >> >> Joe >> >-- > Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From Mzthompson at aol.com Thu Nov 2 09:38:40 2000 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... Message-ID: <4a.ced4eff.2732e480@aol.com> Several days ago I wrote: > Idea, contest time! We need a name for the form of insanity whereby > you continue to haul home DEC. To which Neil Cherry replied: > D.E.C.^2 ( Dee Eee Cee Squared), DEC Conservationists, what else (see > your statements below). It's not an illness, it's an enviromental > concern. :-) And Sellam Ismail also replied: > Mental DECay? > > har har I will have to pick Sellam as the winner. Then in an email this morning from Germany: > I managed to install VMS 6.1 (VAX) from scratch with a license PAK i > 'borrowed' from a Mentally DECayed person on this machine but i do not > have any UCX installed for two reasons Sellam, as the originator of this, your legacy is going to be such that you were the first person associated with this form of insanity. ;) Mike From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 2 09:41:50 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: ZCPR & Other CP/M Extensions (Was: RE: CP/M 1.3 memory requir ement) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2D0@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > Hi, > > Yes, I'm interested in the disks! A friend of mine wants to try and > install it on a H-89. I'll look through my ZCPR stuff and see > if I can find > out what the differences are in verson 2.2 and 3.0 and report later. Ok, if I have time (I've tenatively got a rescue planned for this weekend), I'll try to dig them out this weekend. Regards, -dq From jjackson at salsa-digital.com Thu Nov 2 10:12:04 2000 From: jjackson at salsa-digital.com (James Jackson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: Cadnetix Message-ID: <3A019254.E48B63E0@salsa-digital.com> OK. I've been quiet long enough, I think. Now it is time to ask a question. I have an old Cadnetix 50000S workstation. It still works - sortuv. I would like to find a replacement board for the ailing one (graphics), or locate technical manuals on this beastie. What is a Cadnetix 50000S? It is a CAD workstation that performs Schematic Capture, PCB Layouts, runs Berkeley unix (I think it's Berkeley), uses a 68020 processor, and can still run rings around many Windows CAD software packages... ok, just barely. What I'd _really_ like is to find one of the Sun-2 Cadnetix platforms. (I think it was a Sun-2 - it's been a while folks.) Now, these puppies - they could really scream! Anyway, I saw a bit on the 50000S platforms a while back - was just wondering if anyone might still have one and want to swap something or other. I know where there is a Cadnetix burial ground - it's just that I'd have to pay homage to the groundskeeper. Regards, James Jackson From ncherry at home.net Thu Nov 2 10:13:52 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: 2 months, no DECUS membershp yet Message-ID: <3A0192C0.1BDC759D@home.net> Yep, it's been 2 months and I still am not able to get my basic membership yet. Today I tried rejoining (3rd time) and now I get internal server errors. At this rate I'll never be able to get the OpenVMS CD kit. BTW, if I have 2 VAX do I need to order 2 kits? -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu Nov 2 10:15:36 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: Google References: <20001102052917.KTXN2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <3A019328.B356D3A@arrl.net> Might also want to check out http://www.topclick.com/ It's powered by Google but addresses some privacy concerns. nick o THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > > I have to agree. Though Google returns a lot of unuseable information, it > has proved to be my best resource when searching the impossible. Google > is the God of search engines. I'd use it even if the did have as as do > most competitors. > > Why don't they have ads? It mystifies me. > > Regards, > > Jeff > > As for AltaVista I gave it up for Google.com, why? because google's search > page is advertisement free and it returns better hits than Altavista > does. > > --Chuck > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > President > Complete Computer Services, Inc. > 30 Greenwood Rd. > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-277-5959 > Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com > THETechnoid@home.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Thu Nov 2 10:38:47 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question In-Reply-To: <20001027201833.H18115@mrbill.net> References: <39F9F9D9.880DA72@home.net> <200010272241.PAA06347@shell1.aracnet.com> <20001027201833.H18115@mrbill.net> Message-ID: I am definetly interested! -Bob >On Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 03:41:09PM -0700, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > I'm guessing you're after the VAX Hobbyist CD. I personally think it's > > better than the Alpha one (what can I say I'm interested in BASIC not what > > they substituted for it on the Alpha CD). One thing you'll still want to > >keep your eye out for is a Software Product Library set on >CD-ROMs. They show > > up on eBay from time to time and can fetch anywhere from $9.99 to about > > $200.00. > > Zane > >I've got a complete set, latest version, for VAX, somewhere in this room >still in the folders from DEC (maybe still in the cardboard box). If >someone needs it, let me know. > >Bill > >-- >Bill Bradford >mrbill@mrbill.net >Austin, TX Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Thu Nov 2 11:05:12 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: 2 months, no DECUS membershp yet In-Reply-To: <3A0192C0.1BDC759D@home.net> References: <3A0192C0.1BDC759D@home.net> Message-ID: I just got decus info (I had requested membership back in september). They are waiting for new stationary to send out the membership info...The guy who emailed me was able to give me the membership # for me to use to access the web info. So...I guess don't give up yet...they claim to be sending out info very soon. -Bob >Yep, it's been 2 months and I still am not able to get my basic membership >yet. Today I tried rejoining (3rd time) and now I get internal server >errors. At this rate I'll never be able to get the OpenVMS CD kit. > >BTW, if I have 2 VAX do I need to order 2 kits? > >-- >Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net >http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) >http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) >http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Nov 2 11:12:56 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: 2 months, no DECUS membershp yet In-Reply-To: <3A0192C0.1BDC759D@home.net> from Neil Cherry at "Nov 2, 2000 11:13:52 am" Message-ID: <200011021712.eA2HCvL10571@bg-tc-ppp294.monmouth.com> > Yep, it's been 2 months and I still am not able to get my basic membership > yet. Today I tried rejoining (3rd time) and now I get internal server > errors. At this rate I'll never be able to get the OpenVMS CD kit. > > BTW, if I have 2 VAX do I need to order 2 kits? Nope... just fill out the license form for each serial number. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 2 11:11:07 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: VT05 ? In-Reply-To: <20001101222952.A7846@spies.com> (message from Andreas Meyer on Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:29:52 -0500) References: <20001101222952.A7846@spies.com> Message-ID: <20001102171107.5144.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Does the DEC VT05 terminal use RS232 Yes. > or is it 20ma loop? Yes. That's why there are two serial connectors on it. From THETechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 2 11:16:37 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: 2 months, no DECUS membershp yet In-Reply-To: <3A0192C0.1BDC759D@home.net> Message-ID: <20001102171323.DRPX2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Aparently DECUS is in some turmoil at this time. I must have gotten lucky in getting my membership before Compaq went about purging the DEC name from the annals of the Earth. Really, what's that about?! You should e-mail Davidc@montagar.com. He has been very helpful and responsive on several occasions including responding to my impatient question about my own membership app. They gave me what I needed to know by telephone rather than letting me wait for other methods. If your ordered your cd from other than Montagar.com then I'd go through them instead. Dave seems to have his Sh@t together. The CD and docs cost $30.00 but it is well worth it in my view. If you need any help with the Montagar 'distribution' for vax, lemme know. I've wrung most of the kinks out and can help smooth your way a bit. Your's truely, Jeff In <3A0192C0.1BDC759D@home.net>, on 11/02/00 at 12:16 PM, Neil Cherry said: >Yep, it's been 2 months and I still am not able to get my basic >membership yet. Today I tried rejoining (3rd time) and now I get internal >server errors. At this rate I'll never be able to get the OpenVMS CD kit. >BTW, if I have 2 VAX do I need to order 2 kits? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 2 11:19:04 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... In-Reply-To: <4a.ced4eff.2732e480@aol.com> (Mzthompson@aol.com) References: <4a.ced4eff.2732e480@aol.com> Message-ID: <20001102171904.5208.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mzthompson@aol.com wrote: > And Sellam Ismail also replied: > > Mental DECay? > I will have to pick Sellam as the winner. I don't like it. I may be DECadent, but in this case it's moral decay, not mental. At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. From enrico.badella at softstar.it Thu Nov 2 11:26:11 2000 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question References: <39F9F9D9.880DA72@home.net> <200010272241.PAA06347@shell1.aracnet.com> <20001027201833.H18115@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <3A01A3B3.780839F9@softstar.it> Bob Brown wrote: > > >I've got a complete set, latest version, for VAX, somewhere in this room > >still in the folders from DEC (maybe still in the cardboard box). If > >someone needs it, let me know. I'd be interested in getting my hands on some old version of RDB in order to ressurect the library catalog system I wrote in Pascal while in University e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Nov 2 11:48:06 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: Looking for DEC M7891 Memory Board Message-ID: <200011021748.JAA19230@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Group: I am in need of an M7891-DB or similar memory board for my pdp-11/34A. The specs on this memory are: 128 Kword, 18 bit, parity RAM. Size is not important in this case, I'll take a compatible board with less RAM on it. Please reply to the news group. list, or to me directly. I have stuff to trade or will purchase if necessary! Thanks, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 2 12:18:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... In-Reply-To: <20001102171904.5208.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 2, 0 05:19:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 473 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001102/00b1538f/attachment.ksh From badger at vbe.com Thu Nov 2 12:30:54 2000 From: badger at vbe.com (Michael Melland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: FS: Heathkit EC-1 Message-ID: <3A01B2DE.8FD954EC@vbe.com> I have a Heathkit EC-1 Educational Analog Computer with original manual I'd like to sell. The computer is in unknown functional condition (I don't know if it works right or not) but it looks pretty good. I'd guess I'd have to sell it as unworking. All the parts are there but some of the knobs are "stiff". This EC-1 was in storage since the 1970's ...... it was with some electronic test equipment I purchased at a surplus sale at a college. If you have an idea of it's worth .... either to a collector or as a parts unit please email me at badger@vbe.com Thanks, Mike Melland, W9WIS (Oshkosh,WI) From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 2 12:42:30 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: MULTICS Installation, Halifax In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2CC@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >I should have mentioned that Multics also was closely tied >to a 36-bit word size... a re-implementation could probably >get around this, but a port would be difficult... > >However, a port would work for an emulator, where you'd have >control of all aspects of the target architecture. > >Regards, >-dq Well.... Then How about one of the following Chips? Itanium, Alpha, PA-RISC, or UltraSparc? Would a 64-bit computer be able to handle running a 36-bit OS? On the emulator side there are definitly 36-bit systems emulated on 32-bit chips, and even on 16-bit systems (at least IIRC, the 68000 is a 16-bit chip). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Nov 2 13:02:21 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Nov 2, 2000 06:18:51 pm" Message-ID: <200011021902.eA2J2Lw10812@bg-tc-ppp294.monmouth.com> > > > > Mzthompson@aol.com wrote: > > > And Sellam Ismail also replied: > > > > Mental DECay? > > > I will have to pick Sellam as the winner. > > > > I don't like it. I may be DECadent, but in this case it's moral decay, > > not mental. At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. > > > > Considering that most of us are forever searching for some missing part > for our PDPs and VAXen, it could be said that we're > > 'A few cards short of a full DEC' > > > :-) > > -tony Of course Robert Palmer may have been responsible for a major use when OSF/1 on DECstations was quietly DECommitted, much to the dismay of the User Community. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour From THETechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 2 13:02:06 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001102185949.HWYT2380.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> You just won in my mind. That is beautiful. Too bad Compslack is methodicly erasing the very name (DEC). Pretty soon it will be only us old-timers who remember what DEC meant to the world. Oh, and quite a few Russians, Poles, Ukranians, and other former Soviet-Block folk. I wish I had gotten into Dec before the fall, but I know from my Phrack dayz...... Wish the FBI hadn't given me that blanket party in 86' or I'd be hotter than I am on VMS..... Sorry to anyone who did time, but stealing credit cards is not hacking. Regards, Jeff In , on 11/02/00 at 02:02 PM, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: >Considering that most of us are forever searching for some missing part >for our PDPs and VAXen, it could be said that we're >'A few cards short of a full DEC' >:-) >-tony -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Nov 2 13:22:38 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question In-Reply-To: ; from bbrown@harper.cc.il.us on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 10:38:47AM -0600 References: <39F9F9D9.880DA72@home.net> <200010272241.PAA06347@shell1.aracnet.com> <20001027201833.H18115@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20001102112238.A1799@loomcom.com> > I'm guessing you're after the VAX Hobbyist CD. I personally think it's > better than the Alpha one (what can I say I'm interested in BASIC not what > they substituted for it on the Alpha CD). One thing you'll still want to > keep your eye out for is a Software Product Library set on CD-ROMs. They show > up on eBay from time to time and can fetch anywhere from $9.99 to about > $200.00. > Zane Just for fun I figured I'd give Compaq a call (1-800-DIGITAL still works!) and get pricing information on the latest VAX OpenVMS software releases. Just the VAX OpenVMS 7.2-1 software and online documentation kit (something like 10 CDs, order number QA-XULAA-H8) is $314.00. I imagine the current ConDist is proportionally expensive. Ouch. I'll definitely be keeping my eyes open for one on eBay, or for free, or something else. -Seth From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 2 13:30:17 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: MULTICS Installation, Halifax Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2D5@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > >I should have mentioned that Multics also was closely tied > >to a 36-bit word size... a re-implementation could probably > >get around this, but a port would be difficult... > > > >However, a port would work for an emulator, where you'd have > >control of all aspects of the target architecture. > > Well.... Then How about one of the following Chips? Itanium, Alpha, > PA-RISC, or UltraSparc? Would a 64-bit computer be able to > handle running a 36-bit OS? Certainly... in fact, this topic generated some heat. It's my contention that being bottom-feeder commodity equipment, the Intel line would be more cost-effective than an Alpha. But that's irrelevantif you've got a box of surplus Alpha chips lying around. And the IA64 won't quite be bottom-feeder commidity for a year or two, at least. ;-) > On the emulator side there are definitly 36-bit systems emulated on 32-bit > chips, and even on 16-bit systems (at least IIRC, the 68000 is a 16-bit > chip). I'm still waiting to get my hands on one of these mythical PDP-10 emulators... I want my own DECSYSTEM-10, even if it's really running on an old Mac. regards, -dq From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 2 12:32:18 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... In-Reply-To: <4a.ced4eff.2732e480@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Nov 2000 Mzthompson@aol.com wrote: > And Sellam Ismail also replied: > > > Mental DECay? > > > > har har > > I will have to pick Sellam as the winner. > > Then in an email this morning from Germany: > > > I managed to install VMS 6.1 (VAX) from scratch with a license PAK i > > 'borrowed' from a Mentally DECayed person on this machine but i do not > > have any UCX installed for two reasons > > Sellam, as the originator of this, your legacy is going to be such > that you were the first person associated with this form of insanity. ;) I'm touched and honored :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 2 14:35:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question In-Reply-To: <20001102112238.A1799@loomcom.com> References: ; from bbrown@harper.cc.il.us on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 10:38:47AM -0600 <39F9F9D9.880DA72@home.net> <200010272241.PAA06347@shell1.aracnet.com> <20001027201833.H18115@mrbill.net> Message-ID: >Just for fun I figured I'd give Compaq a call (1-800-DIGITAL still >works!) and get pricing information on the latest VAX OpenVMS software >releases. Just the VAX OpenVMS 7.2-1 software and online documentation >kit (something like 10 CDs, order number QA-XULAA-H8) is $314.00. >I imagine the current ConDist is proportionally expensive. Ouch. > >I'll definitely be keeping my eyes open for one on eBay, or for free, >or something else. > >-Seth That's not even the Condist. That's just the OS, and a couple extra items. I don't think it's anywhere near that many CD's. OpenVMS VAX Software Layered Products Library Package QA-5G88A-H8 $1,070.00 OpenVMS VAX Software Layered Products and Operating System Library Package QA-YL48A-H8 $1,258.00 The prices for Alpha is the same. I don't have the info handy on the hard doc's, but when I ordered my Base set of 7.2 doc's (about 14 manuals) I think it was around $200, the full set I think is around $1400. I'm currently saving my penny's for when 7.3 is released as I'm going to want to pick up the full doc set this time. A good kit for hobbyists is the following: OpenVMS Version 7.3-EFT1 Software Developers' Kit QA-MT3AD-H8 $40.00 If it's like the 7.2-EFT2 release I've got it will have both the Alpha and VAX OS. I've not ordered it as I'm waiting on EFT2 which is supposed to included the TCPIP V5.1 EFT. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Nov 2 16:59:44 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024 In-Reply-To: <000f01c042eb$15a422c0$a2483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: I think I can find an eprom or eprom image for a Monitor that works on the SBC 8024A... Unfortunatly I don't have source. It is for something called 'supermonitor'. Would this be helpful? George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Please see embedded remarks below. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ajp166 > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 11:54 AM > Subject: Re: Monitor for iSBC 8024 > > > > From: Richard Erlacher > > >> From: Richard Erlacher > > >> > > >> > > >> Use the editor that comes with the mailer, please. > > >> > > > > > >What??? > > > It's the term "mailer" that confused me. > > > > Unless your system is severely crippled your Email has an > > editor that will allow your to strip the excess non relevent text. > > Try it, make it easier to read on the other end. > > > > >> I havent a clue why you said that at all since the origin of the > > smallc-c > > >> compiler is 8080? I still have the original DDJ articles with > > sources. > > >> > > >What I said (I thought) was that I don't want to fiddle with small-C to > > the > > >extent of writing a new code generator for the 'HC11, 'HC05's, > > 805x-series, > > >PIC, etc, since Hi-Tech already has a code generator for their compiler > > for > > > > > > No problem with that. But I thought the initial problem was testing a > > bunch > > of ISBC8020s? Where did all the other excess about other cpus come > > into that? > > > > >each of those. It would be a BIG job to do that for the Hendrix > compiler, > > >reduced though it is, since what's needed is a general enough compiler > > >that once I write a debug monitor based on some existing model I already > have > > > what this refers to is the fact that I've used neither small-C or the > Hi-Tech compiler, and before I wade into yet another quagmire, for this > specific job, unless it leads me into a new tool that I can use later. Back > when these older tools were developed, there was no standard for 'C' and the > K&R "proposal" was seldom adhered to enough to allow one to rely on it. > What interests me about the HI-Tech compiler is that the thing supports the > 'HC11, HC05, PIC, and TMS320 family. That's sufficient capability to > warrant the effort of learning it. The small-C would take a lot of work, > particularly since it's not written in a dialect of 'C' that is familiar to > me. I do, by the way, have the Mix-C compiler and its CP/M based > antecedent. I just realize, unlike lots of other, for some of whom it's > perhaps not yet the case, that I'm getting close to full capacity, > memory-wise, and I really don't want to learn yet another odd-ball compiler. > I'd rather do the job in assembler . > > The Hi-tech compiler, if the documentation is to be believed, doesn't have a > code generator for the 8080 and 8085, BTW. It's a pretty decent > possibility, however, "less-than-perfect" this compiler may be, if it were > to be fit to generate a "solution" to my problem, I'd use it. It's on the > list, but I'm not ready to wander into the quagmire without an account to > which to bill the time, (yet). It's not that I need to have someone pay for > me to learn what I don't know, but I do need a motivation to start, and a > deadline makes the job get done. I haven't used one of these > 8020-descendants for several years, but a debug monitor written in a dialect > that supports everything that I might soon use would serve as a motivator. > > > > I wouldn't know, I did did the later version for Z80 with TDL opcodes. > > > I have a bunch of TDL stuff, but have never used it myself. > > > > >know. It's not enough that the 8080 and Z80 are already supported, > > since > > > what for? There are native tools that are completely useable. > > > > Also 8088 and maybe later. > > > > >I'll only need to use the 8080, which, BTW, it's not obvious that the > > >Hi-Tech 'C' supports. As I said, if I'm going to wander into the > > quagmire, > > > > > > I avoid the quagmire and use asm. > > > > >the near future. I'm quite sure nobody is going to hire me to generate > > code > > >for the Z80 or 8080. I've been known to write code in assembler as > > well, > > >but haven't done anything for hire in about 10 years that has required > > Z80 > > >or 8080 coding. > > > > > > While I understand the desire it's all outside the scope of the original > > problem to test and apparently use a bunch of 8085 multibus cards. > > > > Oh, Z80 is still out there as Z180, Z380 and Rabbit for embedded > > apps and CPU library cores in gate arrays. > > > I don't see that as a justification for paying attention to them. The 650x > core is out there too, only at 5-10 MIPS in a core and at about half that > pin-compatible version. The core is significantly smaller than the Z80 > equivalent, though it's because it has fewer resources. Performance, > however, is considerably better. That might depend on how it's to be used, > however. The Rabbit is promising, but it's sole-sourced. > > > > Allison > > > > > > > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 17:41:06 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: B&C Microsystems up600a software, anyone? Message-ID: <20001102234106.51202.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> I keep meaning to ask this... I have an ancient B&C Microsystems universal programmer, model UP600a. I'm running version 3.0something of the software. The largest device I can program is half of a 27040 at a a time. At one point in the past, I tried to download the newer personality files from the B&C Microsystems BBS, but the file was corrupt (full of text garbage, as if caused by either a rampant disk overwrite or a disgruntled employee or customer). Does anyone out there happen to have one of these beasts? I'd love newer software that supported newer devices, both memory (EPROM) and logic (PAL/GAL, etc.). Thanks, -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? >From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. http://experts.yahoo.com/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 2 18:04:28 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement Message-ID: <005c01c0452b$1e3fecb0$be759a8d@ajp166> From: Joe >>The DOS analog of that would be Windows3.1 is not DOS. >>See the point! > > ????? I don't understand this comment. Or at least I hope I don't. ZCPR >isn't a GUI. It's nothing like Windozes, it's a MUCH better command line >interface. Well CCP is a user interface as is command.com, changing out command.com for Win3.1 still doesnt change the fact that it's a DOS OS with a GUI instend of Command line. So goes it for CP/M, CCP or ZCPR are only a 2k loadable module that can be replaced with anything. For example CONIX is one that can be run over CCP for a unix like command line. >>Now ZRDOS or ZSDOS is a totally different codebase and >>non DRI product that is CP/M compatable and draws form >>the ZCPRx lineage. > > I can't say that I've ever heard of them. It's part of the line starting with P2DOS, suprbdos, Novados, Zdos and a few I may have forgotton. Their rewritten versions (some from virgins) of code that is CP/M files and program compatable. Most Z80 code, faster and most also offer a higher (1gb) logical drive size limit. > BTW one of my current projects uses MP/M. CP/M is childs play compared >to it! The hardwre isn't that much more complicated but the operating >system is MUCH more complex. Not really. I have CPM3 and MPM as well. The bios is a bit more convoluted to allow for memory management and interprocess communication but most of the differences are transparent. the Docs for those two are noticably weaker and add an air of mystery. I've taken the path of adding job scheduling and interprocess managment to cpm2.2 as it had nothing to prevent it. Allison From ncherry at home.net Thu Nov 2 19:58:37 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: Nupon LTS-4, terminal server Message-ID: <3A021BCD.32DD8674@home.net> I have a Nupon LTS-4 terminal server and I'm wondering if anyone has software for the beast. I managed to find software for it but the software appears to be for a model with a different serial interface (a newer Cirrus chip, this one has a CL-CD180-10PC-C). The symptom is if I set the buad rate to 9600 it runs at ~7K (or about a 20% error). I'm not really proficient at 386SX disassembly (yet) so I can't find the rate table to adjust them. Any ideas? -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From richard at idcomm.com Thu Nov 2 20:13:38 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024 References: <003c01c0445d$19525f90$ea789a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <003901c0453b$ae61b5c0$d2483cd1@winbook> What I like about "single-chippers" is that you have the option of looking at them as programmable logic. They're not all as fast as CPLD's, but they're generally not as costly as a CPLD or FPGA capable of duplicating their function. A Z80 CPU or one of its scions compatible with its instruction set would still require external hardware to provide the interface to read-write memory, then the memory itself, and the decoding for the EPROM, and then the EPROM itself, plus the drivers for anything that requires more than a mA or two. Naturally there are exceptions, most notably those cases where the code needed to solve the prolem is already written for the Z80, but in general, a multi-device solution is not desirable. see additional remarks below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: ajp166 To: Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2000 4:38 PM Subject: Re: Monitor for iSBC 8024 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > > >Yes, you can, but you can't buy a single-chip microcontroller, using the > >Z80 core, not some "sorta" Z80-like" thing, that requires no external > >components except a clock. > > Who really cares how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. As most > products are rarely just one chip, especially something that needs Z80 > level performance. In the end the skills needed would be Z80(or some > other) programming. > It depends on the nature of the problem you're solving, of course, but generaly, I like to keep it small enough so one has to search for it. If it's on a 4"x5" board, it's too big. If it's in a 1" x 2" board held on the back of the board with some double-stick foam, that's what I like. > > Allison > For an application to be of interest, it's either got to be small enough to be glued to a board in some fashion, or it's got to take its place. There's little room for a Z80, a PROM, a RAM, a PAL, and a clock buffer (assuming one can steal the clock from the host board). Most modern single-chippers have enough poop on their outputs that they don't need buffering, so all you need is the MCU and the clock souce. Dick > From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Nov 2 20:25:22 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question References: ; from bbrown@harper.cc.il.us on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 10:38:47AM -0600 <39F9F9D9.880DA72@home.net> <200010272241.PAA06347@shell1.aracnet.com> <20001027201833.H18115@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <3A022212.D9E005B1@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Just for fun I figured I'd give Compaq a call (1-800-DIGITAL still > >works!) and get pricing information on the latest VAX OpenVMS software > >releases. Just the VAX OpenVMS 7.2-1 software and online documentation > >kit (something like 10 CDs, order number QA-XULAA-H8) is $314.00. > >I imagine the current ConDist is proportionally expensive. Ouch. > That's not even the Condist. That's just the OS, and a couple extra items. > I don't think it's anywhere near that many CD's. Jerome Fine replies: If you think that is bad, try the full distribution of V5.07 of RT-11 which Mentec and Compaq/DEC still sell at $ US 1600.00 with the Qbus license on top of that for about $ US 900 and again that is just the operating system. Part of the answer might be that the DOCs are still all in paper. Also, I suspect that DEC still has the copyright on the V5.06 DOC set which could account for the most significant portion of the $ US 1600.00, but those DOCs are mostly over 10 years old with the 1992 V5.06 being mostly a new combination of the material into more and smaller manuals. > OpenVMS VAX Software Layered Products Library Package > QA-5G88A-H8 $1,070.00 > > OpenVMS VAX Software Layered Products and Operating System Library Package > QA-YL48A-H8 $1,258.00 > > The prices for Alpha is the same. I don't have the info handy on the hard > doc's, but when I ordered my Base set of 7.2 doc's (about 14 manuals) I > think it was around $200, the full set I think is around $1400. I'm > currently saving my penny's for when 7.3 is released as I'm going to want > to pick up the full doc set this time. > > A good kit for hobbyists is the following: > OpenVMS Version 7.3-EFT1 Software Developers' Kit > QA-MT3AD-H8 $40.00 Of course, FORTRAN and C are extra. There is no dBase - use RDB! No decent word processor, etc. Not even a decent editor like EVE/TPU on VMS although probably KED has a few things. So save your pennies. Incidentally, I am finally looking seriously at Y2K patches for the hobby V5.03 of RT-11, but if possible I would like to go much further - up to Y10K if possible. I have not yet determined if it is even technically feasible to predict when the Gregorian Modification (only century years divisible by 400 are leap years) will not only break down, but do so in a manner which is not predictable. Now this will not happen until after year 4000 C.E. (Gregorian), so I would appreciate some feedback, not only from RT-11 hobby users, but also from the general list! Does anyone feels that if Y2K patches are being done for an operating system and the code can be extended up to the year 9999 C.E., should I just ignore the problems associated with too many leap years being present. Note that this affects just two areas. The rollover of a day from February 28th to the next day when the year is a century year divisible by 400. Also, if the banner in MACRO is displaying the date and time, the day of the week is also displayed, as is the day of the week displayed in LINK and LIBR. One solution is to just ignore the problem. It is also possible to make a reasonable attempt which can probably be done up to at least 6000 C.E. Most likely, just omit the leap years at 4000 C.E. and 6000 C.E., but it might be necessary to omit additional leap years between 4000 C.E. and 6000 C.E. The final possibility is to allow the user to have a table to schedule the omitted leap years. Is anyone familiar with leap seconds in VMS at the end of June and December? A current best estimate table could be set up and the user could modify it when corrections are available sometime in the next 2000 years. I realize that this latter part is quite off-topic on a relative basis and I apologize, but V5.03 is from 1985 and needs at least the Y2K patches for hobby users now. I can't see a better time to extend the Y2K code all the way to Y10K if any extension beyond 2099 C.E. is being considered. The extra effort to do the work is probably much less than the effort to solve the associated technical problems and even both should no more than double the total work of just the Y2K patches by themselves if it is all being done at the same time. It would really be appreciated if anyone who is reading this would at least take a minimum couple of minutes to express their opinion on the issue. Thanks in advance if you do!!!!!!!!!!!!!! At least this OFF TOPIC is actually very serious, at least it is to many of us even though we will not be around to check on the results. But, is not one of the primary goals of preservation to save both hardware and software to be around to be used in the future. What better method can be found than to ensure that when the current Y2K patches, put out for only commercial users of V5.07 of RT-11, expire AND few, if any experts are still around to make additional bug fixes, RT-11 will be all ready to continue far into the future without any changes. I agree that there probably will not be any hardware to run PDP-11 software, but perhaps. After all, they are still looking at and attempting to understand languages that are 3000 years old, why not RT-11, especially if someone took the trouble to allow the then current year to be entered - or at least the equivalent date on the assumption the calendar will probably not last that long in any case. Besides, it really would be a lot of fun. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From allain at panix.com Thu Nov 2 20:34:05 2000 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 References: <000901c0451f$e7a707c0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <002301c0453e$89bb0d40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >If you have an idea of it's worth .... either to a collector or as a >parts unit please email me at badger@vbe.com Here's some free eBay research on the subject. Their prices tend to be the highest possible. John A. Heathkit EC-1 computer OLD RARE http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=99004567 sold $348.33 8 bids Heathkit EC-1, the 1950's computer with tubes http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=241661976 sold $688.50 37 bids Heathkit 1957 ANALOG COMPUTER Manual Set NEW! http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=388837376 sold $202.49 15 bids From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 2 21:01:43 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024 Message-ID: <008901c04543$3daa4bf0$be759a8d@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher >What I like about "single-chippers" is that you have the option of looking >at them as programmable logic. They're not all as fast as CPLD's, but >they're generally not as costly as a CPLD or FPGA capable of duplicating >their function. A Z80 CPU or one of its scions compatible with its >instruction set would still require external hardware to provide the >interface to read-write memory, then the memory itself, and the decoding for When I say "core" for a gate array I mean one of those large ones that can also provide the needed ram, rom and IO. As in ASIC. I almost did a job where the cpu core was 80C88, really hate that CPU and am glad I didn't. Allison From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 2 22:21:24 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement In-Reply-To: <005c01c0452b$1e3fecb0$be759a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001102232124.422f5af2@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:04 PM 11/2/00 -0500, Allison wrote: >From: Joe > > >>>The DOS analog of that would be Windows3.1 is not DOS. >>>See the point! >> >> ????? I don't understand this comment. Or at least I hope I don't. >>ZCPR isn't a GUI. It's nothing like Windozes, it's a MUCH better command line >>interface. > > >Well CCP is a user interface as is command.com, changing out command.com >for Win3.1 still doesnt change the fact that it's a DOS OS with a GUI >instend >of Command line. First of all, Win 3.1 runs on top of DOS. It's not a replacement command processor. Second, ZCPR is mot a GUI and Windows is. BIG difference. > >So goes it for CP/M, CCP or ZCPR are only a 2k loadable module that can >be replaced with anything. For example CONIX is one that can be run over >CCP for a unix like command line. Agreed. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 2 22:07:50 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... In-Reply-To: References: <20001102171904.5208.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001102230750.422f6c10@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:18 PM 11/2/00 +0000, Tony wrote: >> >> Mzthompson@aol.com wrote: >> > And Sellam Ismail also replied: >> > > Mental DECay? >> > I will have to pick Sellam as the winner. >> >> I don't like it. I may be DECadent, but in this case it's moral decay, >> not mental. At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. >> > >Considering that most of us are forever searching for some missing part >for our PDPs and VAXen, it could be said that we're > >'A few cards short of a full DEC' > > LOL! Speak for your self. My DEC is full :-) Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 2 22:04:20 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: ZCPR & Other CP/M Extensions (Was: RE: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2D0@tegntserver.tegjeff .com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001102230420.422f29bc@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:41 AM 11/2/00 -0500, you wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Yes, I'm interested in the disks! A friend of mine wants to try and >> install it on a H-89. I'll look through my ZCPR stuff and see >> if I can find >> out what the differences are in verson 2.2 and 3.0 and report later. > >Ok, if I have time (I've tenatively got a rescue planned for this >weekend), I'll try to dig them out this weekend. Great. I'm looking forward to getting them. I haven't found anything that can read my SB-180 disks so I hven't been able to transfer the ZCPR to anything else yet. I think it would be cool to get it running on a PC! I stuck out. I looked through my ZCPR docs and book but none of them tell what the differences are between ZCPR3 and ZCPR 2.2. "ZCPR, The Manual" only gives the differences between ZCPR3 and CP/M 2.2. I don't know anything about the earlier versions of ZCPR so I guess I'm no help. Joe > >Regards, >-dq > > From ncherry at home.net Thu Nov 2 21:31:08 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: IBM 5160 saved from the trash. Message-ID: <3A02317C.9068BA7E@home.net> I recently found an IBM 5160 in the trash, it has no keyboard (but I have a spare). It's almost all original! It has 256K on the motherboard, an AST Clock/Serial/384K RAM board (I think it has a game port too). It has the 6845 full length Black & White/Parallel board, a Hayes full length 1200B modem card (Z8 processor), a Xebec hard drive interface card, an internal/external floppy card, the 360K floppy and a Seagate ST-412 (Noisy). I'll try to recover the data off the hard disk, I have no idea how I'm going to deal with the drive issue (I may have an 8 bit IDE card and small drive). I am really tempted to put CP/M-86 on here. I've never used that OS before and it would be more interesting than PC-DOS 2.0/2.11. I haven't completed a full check out of the machine yet but I have enough spare boards that I should be able to bring this up. I even have a spare IBM PC (not XT) MB w/cassette interface. :-) -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 2 21:50:53 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement Message-ID: <00aa01c04549$91de2d80$be759a8d@ajp166> From: Joe > First of all, Win 3.1 runs on top of DOS. It's not a replacement >command processor. Second, ZCPR is mot a GUI and Windows is. BIG difference. Your being pandantic. Forgetit, the point is long lost. >>be replaced with anything. For example CONIX is one that can be run over >>CCP for a unix like command line. > > Agreed. Actually conix is a bit weird but handy. runs nice on cp/m3 too. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 2 21:58:37 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... Message-ID: <00ba01c0454b$ac546650$be759a8d@ajp166> >>'A few cards short of a full DEC' >> In proper DECspeak that should be : A few modules short of a full DEC. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 2 21:55:24 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: ZCPR & Other CP/M Extensions (Was: RE: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement) Message-ID: <00b901c0454b$ab9b7690$be759a8d@ajp166> From: Joe > Great. I'm looking forward to getting them. I haven't found anything >that can read my SB-180 disks so I hven't been able to transfer the ZCPR to >anything else yet. I think it would be cool to get it running on a PC! SB180 disks should read using standard PC FDC and the correct driver. The problem is they did some weird sector layout but, the SB180 does use a PC compatable controller (765 core). I can read my SB180 disks on the Kaypro using 96tpi drives. It may be the disks you have are 48 tpi or they can be 96tpi (user option). I've migrated mine to 3.5" drives. > I stuck out. I looked through my ZCPR docs and book but none of them >tell what the differences are between ZCPR3 and ZCPR 2.2. "ZCPR, The >Manual" only gives the differences between ZCPR3 and CP/M 2.2. I don't >know anything about the earlier versions of ZCPR so I guess I'm no help. No real difference for the most part. ZCPR3 improved the install process and added a few utilities. Allison From Budyzona16 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 2 22:03:42 2000 From: Budyzona16 at yahoo.com (Budy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: FW: [HeathKit] HERO Robots for sale Message-ID: hi, i am wondering if you could ive me any advice where to find the HERO robot 2000 or Hero robot 1 thanks, _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From richard at idcomm.com Thu Nov 2 21:52:48 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: B&C Microsystems up600a software, anyone? References: <20001102234106.51202.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004101c0454b$fae43f20$b3483cd1@winbook> I have one of those old programmers from B&C, though I can't recall what its model number is. I doubt my software is as up to date as yours, however, as I haven't used it since '86 or so. I'll be happy to help, however if there's any thing I can do. If it involves finding my old driver diskette, however, it may take a few months. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Ethan Dicks To: classiccmp list Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 4:41 PM Subject: B&C Microsystems up600a software, anyone? > > I keep meaning to ask this... I have an ancient B&C Microsystems > universal programmer, model UP600a. I'm running version 3.0something > of the software. The largest device I can program is half of a 27040 > at a a time. At one point in the past, I tried to download the newer > personality files from the B&C Microsystems BBS, but the file was > corrupt (full of text garbage, as if caused by either a rampant disk > overwrite or a disgruntled employee or customer). > > Does anyone out there happen to have one of these beasts? I'd love > newer software that supported newer devices, both memory (EPROM) and > logic (PAL/GAL, etc.). > > Thanks, > > -ethan > > > ===== > Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to > vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com > > The original webpage address is still going away. The > permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ > > See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer. > http://experts.yahoo.com/ > > From rdd at smart.net Thu Nov 2 22:57:55 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: DPS-6 and Ultimate OS (was: MULTICS...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Sellam, what OS are you running on your DPS-6? About a decade ago > > Currently, none. The system is basically non-operational. Hmmm.... have to do something about that! The sounds that system makes when running are too much fun to have it sit quietly. :-) Anyway, it's good to know that one of these is being preserved. Aside from no O.S., do you know if the hardware is ok, or possibly ok? The system that I worked with had some sort of floppy disk holder inside the front chasis panel with a diagnostics floppy located there. Did you get one of these? > I have the setup you describe: > > http://www.siconic.com/computers/dps6tall.jpg That looks like a much nicer system than the one I worked with; it also appears newer. Looking at the tape drive on yours, it doesn't appear to use a vacuum column for the tape tension. When the CPU cabinet's front door was opened, instead of what all I see in yours (what all's there?), there was just metal screening that allowed one o see the lights on the boards in the card-cage. -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD From richard at idcomm.com Thu Nov 2 23:07:39 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024 References: <008901c04543$3daa4bf0$be759a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <001101c04553$fdc4a920$9c483cd1@winbook> The Z80 core is about three times the size of the 650x core and really can't do anything the 650x core can't do quite a bit faster. If you clock the two cores at the same rate, the smaller core is perhaps 5x as fast. It's small because it's simple, having fewer resources. For a dedicated task, however, the small controller's the better choice because it holds down the requirement for resources. Gate arrays are not relevant to the typical microcontroller application. The gate arrays are handy when an MCU is not fast enough, but for short runs, where the MCU's shine, the FPGA's and CPLD's are much slower to develop. The single-chip examples I think about when I'm considering what to use are frequently the Scenix SX family. They're as fast as a core in an FPGA, and, in fact, probably faster, and they cost a LOT less. Of course you have to be able to make the tasks fit, but at the 10 MIPS rate, if you can partition the task, perhaps pipelining two or more of the devices, they still can get the job done VERY fast, yet at a fraction of the cost of a dedicated logic device. Moreover, if you can design with pipelining and manage to devise a scheme wherein multiple devices can make the job happen, it's still MUCH less work than an FPGA. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: ajp166 To: Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 8:01 PM Subject: Re: Monitor for iSBC 8024 > From: Richard Erlacher > > > >What I like about "single-chippers" is that you have the option of > looking > >at them as programmable logic. They're not all as fast as CPLD's, but > >they're generally not as costly as a CPLD or FPGA capable of duplicating > >their function. A Z80 CPU or one of its scions compatible with its > >instruction set would still require external hardware to provide the > >interface to read-write memory, then the memory itself, and the decoding > for > > > When I say "core" for a gate array I mean one of those large ones that > can also provide the needed ram, rom and IO. As in ASIC. > > I almost did a job where the cpu core was 80C88, really hate that CPU > and am glad I didn't. > > Allison > > From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 3 01:00:08 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement In-Reply-To: <00aa01c04549$91de2d80$be759a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, ajp166 wrote: > From: Joe > > First of all, Win 3.1 runs on top of DOS. It's not a replacement > >command processor. Second, ZCPR is mot a GUI and Windows is. BIG > difference. > > > Your being pandantic. Forgetit, the point is long lost. Now Allison, he just proved the point that ZCPR does not increase the bulk of CP/M, whereas Win3.1 does. Therefore, ZCPM is better! - don > >>be replaced with anything. For example CONIX is one that can be run > over > >>CCP for a unix like command line. > > > > Agreed. > > > Actually conix is a bit weird but handy. runs nice on cp/m3 too. > > > Allison > > From liste at artware.qc.ca Fri Nov 3 02:19:01 2000 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: IBM P70 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 25-Oct-2000 Jeff Hellige wrote: > and itt gives me POST error codes of > 301, 162 and 163 on the screen, as well as beeps twice. CMOS battery is dead. You'll need to replace the battery, then get a reference disk (available on the net) to fix this. http://www.intergate.bc.ca/personal/fspencer/8580prob.htm http://www.computercraft.com/docs/ps2htm.html -Philip From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 3 03:27:14 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: DPS-6 and Ultimate OS (was: MULTICS...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > Hmmm.... have to do something about that! The sounds that system > makes when running are too much fun to have it sit quietly. :-) > Anyway, it's good to know that one of these is being preserved. > Aside from no O.S., do you know if the hardware is ok, or > possibly ok? The system that I worked with had some sort of floppy > disk holder inside the front chasis panel with a diagnostics > floppy located there. Did you get one of these? I think so but can't remember. I bought this at a surplus auction in San Jose so I only got to it well after it had been decommissioned. It apparently came out of GE Nuclear in San Jose or thereabouts. > That looks like a much nicer system than the one I worked with; it > also appears newer. Looking at the tape drive on yours, it doesn't > appear to use a vacuum column for the tape tension. When the CPU > cabinet's front door was opened, instead of what all I see in yours > (what all's there?), there was just metal screening that allowed one o > see the lights on the boards in the card-cage. This has a big card cage where if I recall correctly the cards are mounted horizontally. They are pretty large, like 18"x18". Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From enrico.badella at softstar.it Fri Nov 3 05:13:08 2000 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:33 2005 Subject: DPS-6 and Ultimate OS (was: MULTICS...) References: Message-ID: <3A029DC4.D138B27E@softstar.it> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > > > Hmmm.... have to do something about that! The sounds that system > > makes when running are too much fun to have it sit quietly. :-) > > Anyway, it's good to know that one of these is being preserved. > > Aside from no O.S., do you know if the hardware is ok, or > > possibly ok? The system that I worked with had some sort of floppy > > disk holder inside the front chasis panel with a diagnostics > > floppy located there. Did you get one of these? > > I think so but can't remember. I bought this at a surplus auction in San > Jose so I only got to it well after it had been decommissioned. It > apparently came out of GE Nuclear in San Jose or thereabouts. WOW! Does it glow green in the dark :-) e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From at258 at osfn.org Fri Nov 3 07:21:16 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: DPS-6 and Ultimate OS (was: MULTICS...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: RD, hen e got ours, the oners fired her up for us. Then disassembled it for moving. There as, I think a problem on the tape drive. It has been reassembled, and it only lacks the master key to be turned on. The OS is Ultimate. On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > Sellam, what OS are you running on your DPS-6? About a decade ago > > > > Currently, none. The system is basically non-operational. > > Hmmm.... have to do something about that! The sounds that system > makes when running are too much fun to have it sit quietly. :-) > Anyway, it's good to know that one of these is being preserved. > Aside from no O.S., do you know if the hardware is ok, or > possibly ok? The system that I worked with had some sort of floppy > disk holder inside the front chasis panel with a diagnostics > floppy located there. Did you get one of these? > > > I have the setup you describe: > > > > http://www.siconic.com/computers/dps6tall.jpg > > That looks like a much nicer system than the one I worked with; it > also appears newer. Looking at the tape drive on yours, it doesn't > appear to use a vacuum column for the tape tension. When the CPU > cabinet's front door was opened, instead of what all I see in yours > (what all's there?), there was just metal screening that allowed one o > see the lights on the boards in the card-cage. > > -- > Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of > All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to > rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD > > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From badger at vbe.com Fri Nov 3 08:16:38 2000 From: badger at vbe.com (Michael Melland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 References: <000901c0451f$e7a707c0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com> <002301c0453e$89bb0d40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3A02C8C6.9F7C5D91@vbe.com> Thanks John...... Mike John Allain wrote: > >If you have an idea of it's worth .... either to a collector or as a > >parts unit please email me at badger@vbe.com > > Here's some free eBay research on the subject. > Their prices tend to be the highest possible. > > John A. > > Heathkit EC-1 computer OLD RARE > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=99004567 > sold $348.33 8 bids > > Heathkit EC-1, the 1950's computer with tubes > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=241661976 > sold $688.50 37 bids > > Heathkit 1957 ANALOG COMPUTER Manual Set NEW! > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=388837376 > sold $202.49 15 bids > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001103/ca63a679/attachment.html From badger at vbe.com Fri Nov 3 08:51:48 2000 From: badger at vbe.com (Michael Melland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: Update:RE: FS Heathkit EC-1 Message-ID: <3A02D104.C8D7C65@vbe.com> Thanks everyone who sent me offers and information on the computer. I think it will be destined for sale on eBay where I can let the market set the price..... the offers were so far ranging that I feel that it would be the best way to sell it and a search revealed three others that had sold there recently. I'll include a copy of email I sent to several who were interested in it's actual condition after I had a chance to look it over. I brought it home last night and checked it all over as mentioned below. I hope to have it placed on eBay this weekend unless I break down and sell it to a reasonable offer off the net or at a ham/computer fest I'm attending on Sunday. There is a pic of the computer at http://www.vbe.com/~badger/bc/ec1a.jpg Again..... thanks for your interest and all the information. de Mike Melland, W9WIS Last night I took the EC-1 and the other instruments I purchased at the surplus sale home. I cleaned up the EC-1 and checked the tubes, caps and all the circuits. I applied a little Caig Deoxit and with a bit of time and care and was able to free up all the potentiometers that were stiff or frozen. It appears to have been a factory built version that was sold to the college...... very nicely built and laid out. The cabinet has a few small scratches... easily touched up... no dings or dents. The rubber feet are still in place on the bottom. Inside, while quite dusty when I received it has been cleaned up and is very nice. Tubes and Caps and all wiring and pots check out fine. After checking things over it went onto my isolated variac and was slowly powered up..... lit up fine, adjusted B+ voltage.. was still right on the money. Used the manual to set it up and adjust the individual amp balance, all three ranges on each amp (100,10,1) balanced just fine. Everything seems to work and adjust properly at this time so I assume it's quite usable. The manual I have for it is an operation manual..... apparently there is a construction manual that would have come with it if it was a kit version as well. Also has three of those little clear plugin units with a cap and a precision resistor.... From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Fri Nov 3 09:12:20 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001028104324.02ad9eb0@208.226.86.10> References: <007b01c0407f$c93aebc0$59779a8d@ajp166> <5.0.0.25.2.20001028104324.02ad9eb0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: I just got a vaxstation 3100/76. How do I find out the cpu serial # for generating hobbyist licenses? thanks. -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 3 09:05:39 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... In-Reply-To: <00ba01c0454b$ac546650$be759a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: > >>'A few cards short of a full DEC' > >> > > > In proper DECspeak that should be : > > A few modules short of a full DEC. > The bus has power, but the grant continuity card is missing? *ducks* g. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Nov 3 10:29:58 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: FW: [HeathKit] HERO Robots for sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001103112958.433f2cda@mailhost.intellistar.net> Go to every hamfest that you can. Sign up as a vendor so that you can get in early. 95% of the good stuff is sold before the doors are opened to the public. KEEP LOOKING! I found two of them at a hamfest last year. (No, I don't still have them.) Also visit all of the college and trade school auctions but beware,those places are full of E-bay resellers. If all else fails, there's always E-OverPay but be prepared to shell out some big bucks. Joe At 09:03 PM 11/2/00 -0700, you wrote: >hi, i am wondering if you could ive me any advice where to find the HERO >robot 2000 or Hero robot 1 > > thanks, > > > >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Nov 3 10:24:22 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: ZCPR & Other CP/M Extensions (Was: RE: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement) In-Reply-To: <00b901c0454b$ab9b7690$be759a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001103112422.42ffbec8@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:55 PM 11/2/00 -0500, Allison wrote: >From: Joe > > >> Great. I'm looking forward to getting them. I haven't found anything >>that can read my SB-180 disks so I hven't been able to transfer the ZCPR >to >>anything else yet. I think it would be cool to get it running on a PC! > > >SB180 disks should read using standard PC FDC and the correct driver. >The problem is they did some weird sector layout but, the SB180 does >use a PC compatable controller (765 core). I can read my SB180 disks >on the Kaypro using 96tpi drives. It may be the disks you have are 48 >tpi or they can be 96tpi (user option). I've migrated mine to 3.5" >drives. Mine has the 96 TPI drives. 22Disk is supposed to be able to read them but for some reason it doesn't. I don't know if the previous owner modified the OS so that the disk format is non-standard or what. I haven't had time to dig into it yet. MP/M. I'm making big progress on my Dolch system with the MPM. I finally figured out that you can't just execute the file that controls the pattern generator, you have to use one of the function keys that controls the "slots". It runs the same file but the file crashes if you execute it manually. ???? If I use the "slot" control keys, the file loads and loads everything that's needed then I can access all the screens that control the pattern generator. I haven't fooled with the logic analyzer yet but I expect it operates the same way. Joe From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 3 09:33:53 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > >>'A few cards short of a full DEC' >> >> >> >> >> In proper DECspeak that should be : >> >> A few modules short of a full DEC. >> >The bus has power, but the grant continuity card is missing? *ducks* > Maybe all of you need to be properly terminated? Jeff -- Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Nov 3 10:05:32 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: MULTICS Installation, Halifax In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2D5@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <13592604315.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Mythical PDP-10 emulator?] Mine's not mythical - It just doesn't work yet. ------- From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Nov 3 10:10:13 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: DILOG DQ-256 Docs Message-ID: <20001103.101013.-65875.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Gang-- Does anyone out there have the docs for the DQ-256 SMD q-bus controller? I need this to set mine up. Thanks Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Nov 3 10:27:35 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... In-Reply-To: from Jeff Hellige at "Nov 3, 2000 10:33:53 am" Message-ID: <200011031627.eA3GRZ113219@bg-tc-ppp415.monmouth.com> > > > >>'A few cards short of a full DEC' > >> >> > >> > >> > >> In proper DECspeak that should be : > >> > >> A few modules short of a full DEC. > >> > >The bus has power, but the grant continuity card is missing? *ducks* > > > > Maybe all of you need to be properly terminated? > > Jeff He asserted NPR -- but the NPG jumper's still in place. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 3 10:31:54 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: MULTICS Installation, Halifax Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2E2@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > [Mythical PDP-10 emulator?] > > Mine's not mythical - It just doesn't work yet. Sorry, Daniel- the stress level's been up this week. Once it's working to your (initial?) satisfaction, how do you plan deployment and/or availability? -dq From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Nov 3 10:47:22 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: PDP-10 Emulator (was: Re: MULTICS Installation, Halifax) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2D5@tegntserver.tegjeff.com>; from dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 02:30:17PM -0500 References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2D5@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20001103084722.B1086@loomcom.com> On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 02:30:17PM -0500, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > I'm still waiting to get my hands on one of these mythical PDP-10 > emulators... I want my own DECSYSTEM-10, even if it's really > running on an old Mac. > Supposedly, KLH's emulator will be released in binary form "in the near future", i.e. when he gets time. This information is third-hand, so don't hold your breath. I don't know anything about the status of Stu Grossman's emulator. Daniel Seagraves is actively working on his KL-10 emulator called "e10", at http://bony.umtec.com/pdp10.html. Megan Gentry's early emulator work seems to have disappeared, maybe it's just no longer accessable online. Finally, our last best hope comes from Timothy Stark, who's been working like a ferret on meth to get his KS10 emulator out the door. He's been teasing us with the screendumps of his emulator in progress, and it boots and runs TOPS-10 promisingly well. The first source release should be within the very, very near future, within a few weeks or so. I'm sure someone will let the group know when it hits the streets, so we can all be beta testers! > -dq -Seth From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 3 10:59:42 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > >>'A few cards short of a full DEC' > >> >> > >> > >> > >> In proper DECspeak that should be : > >> > >> A few modules short of a full DEC. > >> > >The bus has power, but the grant continuity card is missing? *ducks* > > > > Maybe all of you need to be properly terminated? > Your ohm or mine? g. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Nov 3 11:18:44 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: Update:RE: FS Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <3A02D104.C8D7C65@vbe.com> Message-ID: <3A030184.27143.EB82284@localhost> > Thanks everyone who sent me offers and information on the computer. I > think it will be destined for sale on eBay where I can let the market > set the price..... the offers were so far ranging that I feel that it > would be the best way to sell it and a search revealed three others > that had sold there recently. I'll include a copy of email I sent to > several who were interested in it's actual condition after I had a > chance to look it over. I brought it home last night and checked it > all over as mentioned below. I hope to have it placed on eBay this > weekend unless I break down and sell it to a reasonable offer off the > net or at a ham/computer fest I'm attending on Sunday. Don't forget to mention that it's a late 'compact' model. The shown unit has been build from the mid 60s until 1971. Grus H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 3 10:13:13 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: DPS-6 and Ultimate OS (was: MULTICS...) In-Reply-To: <3A029DC4.D138B27E@softstar.it> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Enrico Badella wrote: > > I think so but can't remember. I bought this at a surplus auction in San > > Jose so I only got to it well after it had been decommissioned. It > > apparently came out of GE Nuclear in San Jose or thereabouts. > > WOW! Does it glow green in the dark :-) The craziest thing is the IBM 557 Alphabetic Interpreter I pulled from the same auction (late-60s era punch card machine) that also came out of the same plant. There are notes inside it that previous engineers left that lead me to believe it was being used at least until the late-80s (1989 I believe). http://www.siconic.com/computers/ibm557.jpg Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Nov 3 11:19:53 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: PDP-10 Emulator (was: Re: MULTICS Installation, Halifax) In-Reply-To: <20001103084722.B1086@loomcom.com> "from Seth at Nov 3, 2000 08:47:22 am" Message-ID: <200011031719.LAA15169@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 02:30:17PM -0500, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > I'm still waiting to get my hands on one of these mythical PDP-10 > > emulators... I want my own DECSYSTEM-10, even if it's really > > running on an old Mac. > > > You cant afford the decsystem-10 thats on Ebay, or you just dont have the room? -Lawrence LeMay From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 3 10:15:56 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: DPS-6 and Ultimate OS (was: MULTICS...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > RD, hen e got ours, the oners fired her up for us. Then > disassembled it for moving. There as, I think a problem on the tape > drive. It has been reassembled, and it only lacks the master key to be > turned on. The OS is Ultimate. I prbably have a key I can make a cpy f fr yu. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From rdd at smart.net Fri Nov 3 11:37:33 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... In-Reply-To: <200011031627.eA3GRZ113219@bg-tc-ppp415.monmouth.com> Message-ID: > > Maybe all of you need to be properly terminated? > > > > Jeff Careful, early termination can result in some of us coming back to haunt machines, which is perhaps undeniably the true cause of what's referred to as system malfunctions---particularly those which are unpredictable, seemingly irrational and intermittent. :-) -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Nov 3 10:34:37 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: Update:RE: FS Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <3A030184.27143.EB82284@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > Don't forget to mention that it's a late 'compact' model. > The shown unit has been build from the mid 60s until 1971. It looks the same as the EC-1 models built since 1959. What's the diff? Or are you thinking of the larger ES-400? Cheers, Doug From elvey at hal.com Fri Nov 3 11:49:29 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: Update:RE: FS Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <3A02D104.C8D7C65@vbe.com> Message-ID: <200011031749.JAA00842@civic.hal.com> Hi Michael I just thought I'd mention. When you ship it, I recommend that you mark and remove all of the tubes and wrap them separately. Also, make some cardboard spacers to support the aluminum chassis in the area behind the balance pots. When I recieved mine, the chassis had saged and 6 or so of the wires to the balance pots were broken. Later Dwight From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 3 12:06:04 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: DECsystem 5400 and NetBSD????? In-Reply-To: Re: DECsystem 5400 and NetBSD????? (Matt Thomas) References: <200011031416.JAA87838@weedcon1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20001103084207.02d7f690@3am-software.com> Message-ID: <14850.65164.336184.725639@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 3, Matt Thomas wrote: > Almost anything can be coerced into running NetBSD. :) Ok, Matt. :) You've just uttered the perfect lead-in for what I've been planning to say here for a few days now: I've got a big beefy pmax machine available...a DECsystem 5810. It's in a chassis very similar (identical?) to that of a VAX 6000, with similar power requirements. It has one processor (third digit in the model number) and a LOT (I don't remember how much exactly) of RAM. It has a large XMI backplane plus a BI bus. There are two or three XMI-based SDI controllers, in addition to a plain old KDB50 in the BI bus. There are no disks with the system, but if you're starving for SDI disks I can throw in a couple of RA90s. It has a TK70 also. There are other goodies in the BI bus...if anyone *really* wants me to I'll go out to the warehouse and look, but that will take some effort. The machine is very clean and in near perfect physical and cosmetic condition. It ran fine about two years ago when it was last powered up. I paid real $$$ for it 2.5 years ago, but I'm willing to let it go for a case of Dr. Pepper to a person who can convince me that they won't scrap it. It will need to be picked up in Laurel, Maryland, which is right off of Route 95 between Washington DC and Baltimore. There is a forklift available at the pickup point, and I can get a few guys together to help heft it, but after that you're on your own. This is a really cool machine and I'd like to see it go to a good home. I realize it's big and a pain to move, but I do hope that anyone so inclined will give it some thought. -Dave McGuire From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 3 12:03:09 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > Maybe all of you need to be properly terminated? > > > > > > Jeff > > Careful, early termination can result in some of us coming back to > haunt machines, which is perhaps undeniably the true cause of what's > referred to as system malfunctions---particularly those which > are unpredictable, seemingly irrational and intermittent. :-) > Puts a whole new twist on ghost signals, doesn't it? Actually, these problems are caused by imps. Their E dance is especially brutal if brought to new heights. This is why high imp E dances are a bad thing. *gd&r* g. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Nov 3 10:31:33 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: Update:RE: FS Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: <3A02D104.C8D7C65@vbe.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001103103036.01959560@208.226.86.10> >Thanks everyone who sent me offers and information on the computer. I >think it will be destined for sale on eBay where I can let the market >set the price..... Sigh, why am I not surprised? --Chuck From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 3 12:38:52 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: Funny OPcodes Message-ID: All of these puns concerning mental DECay made me think of a post I saw on COMP.SYS.TANDY last week. Excuse the length, but I thought some of you might find it amusing. > >This sounds like a variation on the Motorolla HCF (Halt & Catch Fire) >instruction legend. > >bill > Ah, yes. Here is the original document I downloaded from a BBS in the 80's.... * * * * * THE COCO RUMOR MILL IT HAS BEEN RUMORED THAT TANDY (MOTOROLA) IS WORKING ON A COCO III COMPUTER TO BE RELEASED SHORTLY. AT PRESENT THE ONLY ADVANCE INFORMATION AVAILABLE IS THAT A NEW MICROPROCESSOR WILL BE INCORPORATED INTO THE UNIT-- THE 6813! OUR RESEARCH STAFF HAS BEEN ABLE TO UNCOVER A LIST OF NEW OPCODES THAT DISTINGUISH THE 6813 AS A BREAKTHROUGH IN COMPUTER TECHNOLOGY. THE LIST IS PRESENTED HERE FOR YOUR INFORMATION. ABBA - PLAY SWEDISH ROCK ADGB - ADD GARBAGE BAD - BARK AT DOG BBL - BRANCH ON BURNED OUT LIGHT BAH - BRANCH AND HANG BFEI - BEG FOR EXPANSION INTERFACE BLI - BRANCH AND LOOP INFINITE BPB - BRANCH ON PROGRAM BUG BPO - BRANCH IF POWER OFF BPM - BEGIN PIRATE MODE BRN - BURN UP SAM CHIP CFP - CALL FOR PROGRAMMER CLD - TRY TO COOL DOWN SAM CHIP CMS - CATCH MOUSE CNP - CALL NATIONAL PARTS CPB - CREATE PROGRAM BUG CPM - CORRECT PROGRAM MANUAL CRN - CONVERT TO ROMAN NUMERALS CSD - CREATE STATIC DISCHARGE DAO - DIVIDE AND OVERFLOW DEVO - START NEW WAVE (SINE) EIP - ERASE IF PIRATED ERS - ERASE READ-ONLY STORAGE ETOY - EMULATE ZX-81 HFA - HIRE FROM ATARI HCF - HALT AND CATCH FIRE HFC - HIDE FROM CHILDREN HFP - HIDE FROM PINTO HIC - HELP INTEL CHIP IAD - ILLOGICAL AND IBM - INTERUPT BAD MNEMONICS IOR - ILLOGICAL OR JOF - JUMP ON FLOOR JOM - JUMP ON MOTOROLA JOT - JUMP OFF TABLE JTZ - JUMP TO ZAXXON PROGRAM KAL - FLY OVER RUSSIA MDB - MULTIPLY AND DROP BITS MWK - MULTIPLY WORK NOPE - REFUSE TO DO ANYTHING OCD - OPEN COMMODE-DOOR PAS - PRINT AND SMEAR PIP - PULVERIZE INTERFACE PERIPHERAL PSD - PERFORM SAFETY DANCE RBT - READ AND BREAK TAPE REST - RELAX FOR 12 CYCLES RPM - READ PROGRAMMER'S MIND RRT - RECORD AND RIP TAPE RTR - REFUSE TO RUN RTM - RETURN TO MOTOROLA RTT - RETURN TO TANDY RSD - READ AND SCRAMBLE DATA RWD - REWIND DISK SINK - SINK INTO I.C. SOCKET SRZ - SUBTRACT AND RESET TO ZERO SSD - SEEK AND SCRATCH DISK STD - STOP TURNING DISK STI - SELL T.I. STOCK TLK - START SPEECH SYNTHESIS TPR - TEAR PAPER TRS - TRASH ('TRISS') PROGRAM WED - WRITE AND ERASE DATA WID - WRITE INVALID DATA WOJ - WEAR OUT JOYSTICK XBRA - GOTO ZOO XIO - EXECUTE INVALID OP CODE XOR - EXECUTE OPERATOR XPR - EXECUTE PROGRAMMER BESIDES HAVING THE ABOVE USER FRIENDLY OPCODES THE 6813 WILL ALSO HAVE 161 EASY TO REMEMBER ADDRESSING MODES! P.S. THERE IS NO WORD FROM TANDY AS TO WHEN WE MIGHT EXPECT THESE IMPROVEMENTS (THEYARE STILL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT A 6809 IS!). PERHAPS IN THE NEXT COMPUTER CATALOGUE. -- Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001103/35ac78fc/attachment.html From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 3 12:40:45 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is the opportunity I'm going to take to bow out of this little pun-fest...it's getting a little too deep in here! I can't compete with logic like that.... Jeff > > > > Maybe all of you need to be properly terminated? >> > > >> > > Jeff >> >> Careful, early termination can result in some of us coming back to >> haunt machines, which is perhaps undeniably the true cause of what's >> referred to as system malfunctions---particularly those which >> are unpredictable, seemingly irrational and intermittent. :-) >> >Puts a whole new twist on ghost signals, doesn't it? > >Actually, these problems are caused by imps. Their E dance is especially >brutal if brought to new heights. This is why high imp E dances are a bad >thing. *gd&r* > >g. -- Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 3 12:42:31 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: IBM 5160 saved from the trash. In-Reply-To: <3A02317C.9068BA7E@home.net> from "Neil Cherry" at Nov 2, 0 10:31:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1543 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001103/bfe363c1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 3 12:46:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Nov 3, 0 12:37:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 326 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001103/27bcb81e/attachment.ksh From badger at vbe.com Fri Nov 3 13:09:38 2000 From: badger at vbe.com (Michael Melland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: EC-1 fiasco.... Message-ID: <3A030D71.3BC79803@vbe.com> Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 12:54:39 -0600 From:Michael Melland To: Chuck McManis Chuck McManis wrote: > No, this is disingenuous at best. You really meant to say that none of the > offers matched what you saw someone get on Ebay and your greed took over. > Not surprisingly it is exceptionally rude to "offer something for sale" and > then to actually not sell it. Had you an ounce of integrity you would have > sold it to whomever sent you the "best offer." Chuck, Better read my original post again: > I have a Heathkit EC-1 Educational Analog Computer with original > manual I'd like to sell. The computer is in unknown functional > condition (I don't know if it works right or not) but it looks pretty > good. I'd guess I'd have to sell it as unworking. All the parts are > there but some of the knobs are "stiff". This EC-1 was in storage > since the 1970's ...... it was with some electronic test equipment I > purchased at a surplus sale at a college. > > If you have an idea of it's worth .... either to a collector or as a > parts unit please email me at badger@vbe.com What I asked for I got...... an estimate of its worth. I did not say that I was accepting bids.... they just came in.... If I had stated that I'd sell it to the high bidder I would have, but that's not what I asked for..... what I did receive is a number of very informative posts with value estimates and suggestions for places to offer it for sale..... eBay was the most suggested venue. I really don't care how it sells or if it sells..... it's just "surplus" to me. I'm not into collecting computers..... now if it were electronic test equipment or communications gear that's another story. >From my perspective I was asking for help in assaying the value of this piece I wanted to sell. I do appreciate the offers to purchase (most) and especially those persons that sent me information on the EC-1 and warned me that I might receive low ball offers from my post. Some were... and had I not received replies from several very helpful individuals I'd probably provided someone with real "steal" . I didn't send angry email to those who made an offer that some would (not I) perceive as trying to take advantage of my ignorance. In retrospect after looking at the title of my post it should have said "Value of EC-1 wanted"..... sorry if this was confusing. If you are still bitching about selling it to the one making the best offer..... go to eBay and bid along with those who may know it's value. At any rate the your generous offer of $100 was far from the highest I received. Mike Melland From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 3 12:58:28 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You mean you're not np-compete? g. On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Jeff Hellige wrote: > This is the opportunity I'm going to take to bow out of this > little pun-fest...it's getting a little too deep in here! I can't > compete with logic like that.... > > Jeff > > > > > > Maybe all of you need to be properly terminated? > >> > > > >> > > Jeff > >> > >> Careful, early termination can result in some of us coming back to > >> haunt machines, which is perhaps undeniably the true cause of what's > >> referred to as system malfunctions---particularly those which > >> are unpredictable, seemingly irrational and intermittent. :-) > >> > >Puts a whole new twist on ghost signals, doesn't it? > > > >Actually, these problems are caused by imps. Their E dance is especially > >brutal if brought to new heights. This is why high imp E dances are a bad > >thing. *gd&r* > > > >g. > > -- > Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 > Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 3 12:59:00 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: OT: And the winner is.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Careful, early termination can result in some of us coming back to > > haunt machines, which is perhaps undeniably the true cause of what's > > referred to as system malfunctions---particularly those which > > are unpredictable, seemingly irrational and intermittent. :-) > > > Is that the explanation of ghost addresses ? > ...or shadow ram, take your pick. g. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 3 13:14:58 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: PDP-10 Emulator (was: Re: MULTICS Installation, Halifax) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2E5@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > > On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 02:30:17PM -0500, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > > I'm still waiting to get my hands on one of these mythical PDP-10 > > > emulators... I want my own DECSYSTEM-10, even if it's really > > > running on an old Mac. > > > > You cant afford the decsystem-10 thats on Ebay, or you just dont > have the room? Both, Larry... both. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 3 13:18:06 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: PDP-10 Emulator (was: Re: MULTICS Installation, Halifax) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2E6@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 02:30:17PM -0500, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > I'm still waiting to get my hands on one of these mythical PDP-10 > > emulators... I want my own DECSYSTEM-10, even if it's really > > running on an old Mac. > > > > Supposedly, KLH's emulator will be released in binary form "in the > near future", i.e. when he gets time. This information is third-hand, > so don't hold your breath. > > I don't know anything about the status of Stu Grossman's emulator. > > Daniel Seagraves is actively working on his KL-10 emulator > called "e10", at http://bony.umtec.com/pdp10.html. Yeah, he said it's just not ready yet... > Megan Gentry's early emulator work seems to have disappeared, maybe > it's just no longer accessable online. Megan has the real thing, tho, doesn't she? > Finally, our last best hope comes from Timothy Stark, who's been > working like a ferret on meth to get his KS10 emulator out the door. > He's been teasing us with the screendumps of his emulator in progress, > and it boots and runs TOPS-10 promisingly well. The first source > release should be within the very, very near future, within a few > weeks or so. I'm sure someone will let the group know when it hits > the streets, so we can all be beta testers! Cool... too bad, the only DECtape I had was rented; wish I'd bought it. Among other things, I had Richard Greenblatt's Makhak chess program. Is that still around? IIRC, it played about a 1600 point game, perfect for lousy-chess-player me. -dq From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com Fri Nov 3 13:28:07 2000 From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: DataVue 25 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001103132232.00d18720@192.168.210.18> I'm trying to get a DataVue 25 'lunchbox' machine up & running. This strange little machine has, of all things, an infrared keyboard. I know the PCjr had one as well, but still it seems unusual for the era. In any event, I am unable to get the IR kb to do anything at all. Typing produces no output, and yes I have installed a fresh set of batteries. Does anyone have any experience with this model? I once remember seeing a little card that was used to test TV remotes. It was treated with some substance that would fluoresce when struck with IR. Can someone tell me where to find such an item? Seems like a good place to start, so I can see if it's a transmission or reception problem. Bill Layer Sales Technician +----------------------------------+ Viking Electronics, Inc. 1531 Industrial St. Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A 715.386.8861 ext. 210 +----------------------------------+ "Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century" From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Nov 3 11:49:21 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: EC-1 fiasco.... In-Reply-To: <3A030D71.3BC79803@vbe.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001103113955.01a42278@208.226.86.10> Normally, I'm not a mean person. Michael, you're an asshole. #1 was sending out a message titled "FS: Heathkit EC-1" when you had no intention of selling it. #2 was forwarding private correspondence to the list where no one fucking cares that I think you were not being completely honest in your email. It wasn't like you didn't "know" about E-bay, after all you've got 102 people sending you feedback on how they liked the things they bought from you there. And as a veteran seller you no doubt have researched what other EC-1's sold for on EBay before you posted to this list. So you deliberately trolled the list, perhaps to "generate interest" in your future Ebay listing, and I think that sucks. I stand by my assertion that you have no integrity. --Chuck At 01:09 PM 11/3/2000 -0600, you wrote: > Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 12:54:39 -0600 > From:Michael Melland > To: Chuck McManis > >Chuck McManis wrote: [go back and read it if you want] From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Nov 3 14:10:21 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: EC-1 fiasco.... Message-ID: <20001103.141021.-304759.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Fri, 03 Nov 2000 13:09:38 -0600 Michael Melland writes: > Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 12:54:39 -0600 > From:Michael Melland > To: Chuck McManis > > Chuck McManis wrote: C'mon guys. There's no need to slug this out in public. It's very bad karma. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Nov 3 14:16:00 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: PDP-10 Emulator (was: Re: MULTICS Installation, Halifax) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2E5@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> "from Douglas Quebbeman at Nov 3, 2000 02:14:58 pm" Message-ID: <200011032016.OAA16390@caesar.cs.umn.edu> [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ] > > > On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 02:30:17PM -0500, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm still waiting to get my hands on one of these mythical PDP-10 > > > > emulators... I want my own DECSYSTEM-10, even if it's really > > > > running on an old Mac. > > > > > > > You cant afford the decsystem-10 thats on Ebay, or you just dont > > have the room? > > Both, Larry... both. > > -dq > Good god, I dont know what is worse... the speed at which the price is rising on that decsystem-10, or the fact that at $1,625.00 the reserve price hasnt been reached yet! -Lawrence LeMay From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Nov 3 12:35:26 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: PDP-10 Emulator (was: Re: MULTICS Installation, Halifax) In-Reply-To: <200011032016.OAA16390@caesar.cs.umn.edu> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2E5@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001103123338.028224b0@208.226.86.10> Wow, it looks cool though. And the 11/35 that was on Ebay went for a ton of cash too. I just hope whomever buys it doesn't rip off the front panel and hang it on the wall. --Chuck At 02:16 PM 11/3/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Good god, I dont know what is worse... the speed at which the price is >rising on that decsystem-10, or the fact that at $1,625.00 the reserve >price hasnt been reached yet! > >-Lawrence LeMay From THETechnoid at home.com Fri Nov 3 15:08:37 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001103210005.ZSXZ14736.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> I used the serial number off the sticker on the back and it worked fine. Jeff In , on 11/03/00 at 04:08 PM, Bob Brown said: >I just got a vaxstation 3100/76. How do I find out the cpu serial # for >generating hobbyist licenses? >thanks. >-Bob >Bob Brown >Saved by grace >Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From elvey at hal.com Fri Nov 3 15:08:05 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: EC-1 fiasco.... In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001103113955.01a42278@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <200011032108.NAA00920@civic.hal.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > Normally, I'm not a mean person. > > Michael, you're an asshole. > > #1 was sending out a message titled "FS: Heathkit EC-1" when you had no > intention of selling it. > #2 was forwarding private correspondence to the list where no one fucking > cares that I think you were not being completely honest in your email. Hi Chuck Your right, it was a cheap trick. He may have already known what the eBay prices were or should have known. Still, maybe he didn't know. Being in the business of selling this stuff, it is his job to know but maybe he didn't realize that these were common on eBay and never looked. Of cource, if he did know and was trolling our mail group, then shame on him for having poor ethics. There is a fellow that trolls the comp.lang.forth news group for Jupiter Ace computers. He knows that these get good prices on eBay. He has sold a couple already. One would think that he was actually interest in the machine but he is just a reseller. As much as the ethics of these fellows could be improved, much equipment would have been scrapped if not for the middle men that matched the source with the destination. I have had a fellow that honestly contacted me about locating any Canon Cats. He was up front and stated that he was looking for one of these to sell to a client. This level of honesty is rare so they are not all looking for the next way to trick you. Dwight From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 3 15:22:09 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: PDP-10 Emulator (was: Re: MULTICS Installation, Halifax) Message-ID: LOL, I essential gave away a complete, operational 2065 (KL-10) complete with manuals, software, 5 or 6 RP06's, and a pair of TU78's, simply because I could no longer afford to go rescue it after making expensive car repairs... So I shudder to think what that would bring.. And I want to make the promise that I will never, ever, be caught dead selling any minis or mainframes or whatnot on any auction site... Sure, I've sold some stuff to DEC resellers, but that was just 3rd party crud.. I'm not saying that I don't think its right for these machines to have a value, I'm only saying I personally would not feel right about selling things I have mostly accquired for free.. Will J _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From badger at vbe.com Fri Nov 3 15:29:16 2000 From: badger at vbe.com (Michael Melland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: Heathkit EC-1 For Sale to Highest Offer Message-ID: <3A032E2C.F26E59EE@vbe.com> Now that I have an idea of the EC-1's general value from members of the list ...so I don't get screwed selling it blind ...and, as I learned from my faux pas in stating I was selling it on eBay... In order to allow members of this forum to have a chance to purchase this computer prior to my listing it on eBay, here it is. If you are interested here are my terms: 1. Offers are accepted via email effective 2000 hrs UTC, November 3, 2000 until 2000 hrs UTC November 6, 2000 ONLY 2. Minimum Offer accepted is $350 3. Buyer pays all actual shipping costs, insurance and any import duty or customs fees. EC-1 ships on receipt of payment 4. Payment to be by certified funds (cashier's check or money order) and must be received within seven days of end of offer. Payment may also be made with a credit card via PayPal. 5. EC-1 is sold "as-is" with no warrantee or guarantee I will try to assay the general condition of the computer as accurately as possible. There are no dents or dings. There are a some small scratches. The mesh case is dark green in color. The pots were stiff and two were frozen but were able to be freed up using Caig Labs DeOxit and seem to work fine. There are chips out of the plastic screw slots on two of the the balance pots but they still work fine and it's not noticeable unless you specifically look at them. The tubes test ok and the chassis appears clean and in good order. I can find no obvious faults electrically. The computer powers up.... both filament and high voltage. The meter works and I was able to check the B+ voltage (right on the money) and balance all the amplifiers at all 3 working voltages (100,10 and 1 VDC). It comes with the original operators manual and three of the resistor/capacitor plug ins. No other plug ins, leads or cables are included. All the knobs and switches are original and they are in very good condition. I have tested the unit only this far and all seems well but it is sold "AS-IS" with no warrantee due to it's age and my inability to test it's operation further. A picture is available at http://www.vbe.com/~badger/bc/ec1.jpg or http://www.vbe.com/~badger/bc/ec1a.jpg If you need more general information, have something you want me to check or e-mail pictures let me know. My email address is badger@vbe.com Regards, Mike Melland Oshkosh, Wisconsin From jlewczyk at his.com Fri Nov 3 15:50:56 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: DataVue 25 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001103132232.00d18720@192.168.210.18> Message-ID: <000301c045e0$25344fb0$6401a8c0@Corellian> Head out to your local Radio Shack. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Layer > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 2:28 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: DataVue 25 > > > I'm trying to get a DataVue 25 'lunchbox' machine up & running. This > strange little machine has, of all things, an infrared keyboard. I know the > PCjr had one as well, but still it seems unusual for the era. > > In any event, I am unable to get the IR kb to do anything at all. Typing > produces no output, and yes I have installed a fresh set of batteries. Does > anyone have any experience with this model? > > I once remember seeing a little card that was used to test TV remotes. It > was treated with some substance that would fluoresce when struck with IR. > Can someone tell me where to find such an item? Seems like a good place to > start, so I can see if it's a transmission or reception problem. > Bill Layer > Sales Technician > > > +----------------------------------+ > Viking Electronics, Inc. > 1531 Industrial St. > Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A > 715.386.8861 ext. 210 > > +----------------------------------+ > > "Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century" > > > > From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Fri Nov 3 16:14:27 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: Stretch In-Reply-To: <20001027182405.1879.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <000001c045e3$6ee09a80$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com> Eric Smith wrote last Friday, October 27, 2000 2:24 PM >http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/ibm/stretch/ >The Computer Museum History Center has one almost-complete >7030 system from Livermore. They don't have much in the way >of documentation. If anyone has anything they can either >donate to the museum or make available for copying, please >let me know. Well, 40 or so years have pased so there's no harm in another week, right? I looked at my book last night and it is indeed an overview of the 7030 by IBM. It is available for copying by the museum. Author was Buchholz and title was "Design for a Computer System" I Think. I probably should browse this list from Home where I can enter the data directly... John A. From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Nov 3 16:14:30 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: OT: Weather conditions in U.K. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20001103171239.009e5950@mail.wincom.net> At 06:46 PM 11/3/2000 +0000, you wrote: > > Careful, early termination can result in some of us coming back to > > haunt machines, which is perhaps undeniably the true cause of what's > > referred to as system malfunctions---particularly those which > > are unpredictable, seemingly irrational and intermittent. :-) > > >Is that the explanation of ghost addresses ? > >-tony Hey Tony, are you keeping your chin above water? Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum at http://skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From ip500 at home.com Fri Nov 3 16:31:09 2000 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: EC-1 fiasco.... References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001103113955.01a42278@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <3A033CAD.DB522675@home.com> Speaking of Assholes.....and ethics....and posting of private e-mail to the group.... I'm sure that most [if not all] of those horrible "eBay resellers" who sent him offers...offered more than your lousy $100 lowball attempt! Common..Get a life and quit with the griping. Craig Chuck McManis wrote: > > Normally, I'm not a mean person. > > Michael, you're an asshole. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 3 16:33:30 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:34 2005 Subject: PDP-10 Emulator (was: Re: MULTICS Installation, Halifax) In-Reply-To: Re: PDP-10 Emulator (was: Re: MULTICS Installation, Halifax) (Lawrence LeMay) References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2E5@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> <200011032016.OAA16390@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <14851.15674.968899.417013@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 3, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Good god, I dont know what is worse... the speed at which the price is > rising on that decsystem-10, or the fact that at $1,625.00 the reserve > price hasnt been reached yet! Huh? Ok, I'll bite...how common are KL10s in YOUR neighborhood? -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 3 16:47:01 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: OT: Weather conditions in U.K. In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001103171239.009e5950@mail.wincom.net> from "Charles E. Fox" at Nov 3, 0 05:14:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 287 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001103/d5103e94/attachment.ksh From azog at azog.org Fri Nov 3 17:01:49 2000 From: azog at azog.org (Billy D'Augustine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: VAX 4000/60 Message-ID: <002501c045ea$0c8e73a0$2001a8c0@my.domain> I've been lurking here for about a month now. A friend of mine told me there were a lot of DECheads here, so I signed up. I've been puttering around with big iron for about a few years, but I don't have anything left (had two VAX 730's and several PDP-11's - an 11/34, 11/73 and what I think was either an 11/04 or an 11/03... I'm sorta regretting getting rid of any of them... I'd like to get back into hacking Unibuss stuff someday) Anyways, I recently got a VAXstation 4000/60 from e-bay, for what I considered to be a nice price. Works fine. Had VMS 5.5-2 on it, but I got the hobbyist license and VAX/VMS 7.2 CD from montagar (good deal!). It only has 24mb of RAM - 8mb built in, and four 4mb chips, leaving two slots open. Unfortunately, the best I can do on that setup would be 32mb RAM. I know the machine can do 104mb (96mb in chips, I guess that would be six 16mb chips), but I'm not sure of the type of memory used. It also has two RZ25's, which are a bit tight. What limitations do I have on drives that can be installed? I'm not using the frame buffer. My intention even before I received it was to run a serial console. But I think it might be fun to run a graphical display. Have no idea what type of frame buffer is installed, except that it has an odd sub-D connector with three mini-BNCs inside. What's the specs on the monitor that can be connected? Can I get an an adapter cable to connect it to my PC monitor? From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 3 17:07:36 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: EC-1 fiasco.... In-Reply-To: <3A033CAD.DB522675@home.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, ip500 wrote: > Speaking of Assholes.....and ethics....and posting of private > e-mail to the group.... I'm sure that most [if not all] of those > horrible "eBay resellers" who sent him offers...offered more than your > lousy $100 lowball attempt! Common..Get a life and quit with the > griping. F-you, Craig. The only reason you are even privvy to Chuck's private offer is because the message was posted publicly to the list. What he offered is irrelevant, and it's certainly none of your business. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 3 16:54:20 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: EC-1 fiasco.... In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001103113955.01a42278@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Normally, I'm not a mean person. > > Michael, you're an asshole. > > #1 was sending out a message titled "FS: Heathkit EC-1" when you had no > intention of selling it. > #2 was forwarding private correspondence to the list where no one fucking > cares that I think you were not being completely honest in your email. As much as I hate seeing this type of thing happen, I'm really glad it's happened to someone else so I can comment on it as an uninvolved third party. Taking a private message and posting it to the list shows that: a) you have little, if any, integrity b) you have no respect for the mailing list community c) you don't feel you have any strength in your argument, so you bring it to a public forum perhaps in the hopes that people will rally to your side and support you Whatever the reason, pulling this kind of shit only shows what sort of an immature and insecure asshole you are. If any sort of conduct deserves a physical beating, this is it. Private mail is sent as such for good reasons, and it is neither appropriate nor welcome for anyone to take a private message and post it to a public forum under any condition. If your intent is to embarrass your adversary, you are only serving to embarrass yourself and demonstrate what a dick you are. Otherwise, pick your excuse from either A, B or C above and hang your head in shame. > So you deliberately trolled the list, perhaps to "generate interest" in > your future Ebay listing, and I think that sucks. I stand by my assertion > that you have no integrity. I concur with this assessment. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 3 16:43:47 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: DataVue 25 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001103132232.00d18720@192.168.210.18> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Bill Layer wrote: > I'm trying to get a DataVue 25 'lunchbox' machine up & running. This > strange little machine has, of all things, an infrared keyboard. I know the > PCjr had one as well, but still it seems unusual for the era. > > In any event, I am unable to get the IR kb to do anything at all. Typing > produces no output, and yes I have installed a fresh set of batteries. Does > anyone have any experience with this model? I just picked one up myself. It's accessible so I'll play with it and see what I can find out (disclaimer: when I have time :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Nov 3 18:01:25 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: The perfect description Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: >'A few cards short of a full DEC' It doesn't get any better than that. That's the one I was trying to think of. Well said! - Mark From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Nov 3 18:03:51 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: The perfect description Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: >'A few cards short of a full DEC' It doesn't get any better than that. That's the one I was trying to think of. Well said! - Mark From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 3 17:59:42 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024 Message-ID: <001c01c045f3$8a6f18c0$25769a8d@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher >The Z80 core is about three times the size of the 650x core and really can't >do anything the 650x core can't do quite a bit faster. If you clock the two That may be true, I don't care. It's a "but, who cares" thing. If a manufacturer used z80 in a product and wanted an improved product do you think they will drop z80 or find a way to to package it tighter. >Gate arrays are not relevant to the typical microcontroller application. >The gate arrays are handy when an MCU is not fast enough, but for short >runs, where the MCU's shine, the FPGA's and CPLD's are much slower to >develop. You only have worked with low volume stuff then. In the high volume world it's common for vendors to suff parts into ASICs as a cost reduction or product design protection. >The single-chip examples I think about when I'm considering what to use are >frequently the Scenix SX family. They're as fast as a core in an FPGA, and, Who cares. I didnt' exclusivly say speed was the issue. You did. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 3 18:07:09 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement Message-ID: <001d01c045f3$bb442a30$25769a8d@ajp166> From: Don Maslin >Now Allison, he just proved the point that ZCPR does not increase the >bulk of CP/M, whereas Win3.1 does. Therefore, ZCPM is better! Stull no arguement, just not the question at hand. DOS like CP/M can have any number of user interfaces, size for the moment is unimportant as it GUI vs Command line. You'd like the version I did for laughs that looked a lot like RSTS running the BASIC interface rather than DCL. Yes, I mean the user enviornment is inside basic and the command line would be BASIC. I used LLL BASIC to do it as its available as source and all. So what if CCP {or ZCPR} is nominally 2k, I changed the load point in the BIOS and allowed 8k for that. Is the user interface different? Yes. Is it CP/M, still? Yes. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 3 17:13:35 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: Stretch In-Reply-To: <000001c045e3$6ee09a80$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com> (John.Allain@donnelley.infousa.com) References: <000001c045e3$6ee09a80$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <20001103231335.23580.qmail@brouhaha.com> I previously requested that anyone with materials (documentation, maintenance prints, software, etc.) for the IBM 7030 Data Processing System (AKA "Stretch") make them available to The Computer Museum History Center (www.computerhistory.org) for copying. "John Allain" wrote: > I looked at my book last night and it is indeed > an overview of the 7030 by IBM. It is available for copying > by the museum. Author was Buchholz and title was "Design for > a Computer System" I Think. Thanks very much for the offer. The museum does have at least one copy of the book. It took me a while to find a copy for my own library, but I was able to borrow one through interlibrary loan while I waited. It is an excellent book, and I'd highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in how computer systems were designed in the late 1950s, even if you have no specific interest in Stretch. In fact, much of the material is still relevant to computer design today. Unfortunately it is rare to find this much insightful analysis into a system design. From ip500 at home.com Fri Nov 3 19:17:36 2000 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: EC-1 fiasco.... References: Message-ID: <3A0363B0.E57EF4E9@home.com> Not that I really care personally---but behavior and and/or language like this is offensive to most "civilized" people and really has no place in a public forum. As has been stated several times in the past: Grow Up Sellam. Craig Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, ip500 wrote: > Common..Get a life and quit with the > > griping. > > F-you, Craig. The only reason you are even privvy to Chuck's private > offer is because the message was posted publicly to the list. What he > offered is irrelevant, and it's certainly none of your business. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 3 18:31:40 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question Message-ID: <009901c045f8$1ba99b40$25769a8d@ajp166> From: Bob Brown >I just got a vaxstation 3100/76. How do I find out the cpu serial # for >generating hobbyist licenses? There is no CPU serial number. You want the number off the back of the box. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 3 18:33:22 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: ZCPR & Other CP/M Extensions (Was: RE: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement) Message-ID: <009a01c045f8$48f007b0$25769a8d@ajp166> From: Joe > Mine has the 96 TPI drives. 22Disk is supposed to be able to read them >but for some reason it doesn't. I don't know if the previous owner modified >the OS so that the disk format is non-standard or what. I haven't had time >to dig into it yet. Maybe the 22disk table is broken. I use Uniform, Multidsk and both work fine for old SB180 disks. Allison From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Nov 3 19:24:32 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: PDP-10 Emulator (was: Re: MULTICS Installation, Halifax) In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001103123338.028224b0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: Al Kossow was high bidder last time I check... You still here Al? clint PS I hope someone from here wins it! On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Wow, it looks cool though. And the 11/35 that was on Ebay went for a ton of > cash too. I just hope whomever buys it doesn't rip off the front panel and > hang it on the wall. > > --Chuck > > At 02:16 PM 11/3/2000 -0600, you wrote: > >Good god, I dont know what is worse... the speed at which the price is > >rising on that decsystem-10, or the fact that at $1,625.00 the reserve > >price hasnt been reached yet! > > > >-Lawrence LeMay > > > From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Nov 3 19:29:18 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question In-Reply-To: <20001103210005.ZSXZ14736.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: The serial number doesn't actually matter. Lazy people get a single hobbiest license, and install it on all their VAXen. I'm slightly concerned they will come after me if I get a separate license for each machine! (2-uVAX II's,uVAX III,VS2000,11-3100's,11/750,11/780!) I wonder if you could use the serial number field on the form for a 'choosen plaintext' attack on the checksum generator?/\ clint On Fri, 3 Nov 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > I used the serial number off the sticker on the back and it worked fine. > > > > Jeff > > > In , on 11/03/00 > at 04:08 PM, Bob Brown said: > > >I just got a vaxstation 3100/76. How do I find out the cpu serial # for > >generating hobbyist licenses? > > >thanks. > > >-Bob > >Bob Brown > >Saved by grace > >Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > President > Complete Computer Services, Inc. > 30 Greenwood Rd. > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-277-5959 > Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com > THETechnoid@home.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 3 19:38:10 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: FWD: 8" drives in enclosure with power supply Message-ID: Here's a message I found on USENET that someone might find useful: ------------------------------------------------ Subject: 8" drives in enclosure with power supply From: "Sheldon Rabin" Newsgroups: comp.os.cpm Date: Fri, Nov 3, 2000 2:16 PM Message-ID: This clean CP/M disk system is still available; There is VERY little time before I will have to "move" this system. I would that someone give this equipment a functioning environment. Come over and see it. Brief description: 2 Shugart 801's (single sided) , Sierricin power supply, interconnecting signal and power cables and a rugged enclosure. SRABIN@ATT.NET, northern NJ. -- Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001103/b1baf3b6/attachment.html From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 3 19:39:31 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: FWD: ATT 6300 Manual set Message-ID: Here's a post I found on USENET that I thought someone might find useful: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: ATT 6300 Manual set From: "Sheldon Rabin" Newsgroups: comp.os.cpm Date: Fri, Nov 3, 2000 2:24 PM Message-ID: <4iEM5.16122$UL.969058@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> This is complete 6 manual set for the ATT 6300 computer. Contain encyclopedic amounts of hardware and software information in 3 ring binders. These manuals need a good home and an immediate home. SRABIN@ATT.NET northern NJ. -- Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001103/55e21824/attachment.html From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 3 19:41:40 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: EC-1 fiasco.... In-Reply-To: <3A0363B0.E57EF4E9@home.com> References: <3A0363B0.E57EF4E9@home.com> Message-ID: Could we please take this discussion to private email's? At this stage, it is hardly reflecting well on any of those involved. It would be better served if handled in private. Thanks Jeff -- Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Nov 3 19:39:26 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: VAX 4000/60 In-Reply-To: <002501c045ea$0c8e73a0$2001a8c0@my.domain> Message-ID: Hi Billy, Most of the DEC stuff used fixed frequency monitors, so they can connect to a modern multi-frequency monitor with little problems. The cable IIRC is a 3W3 to BNC, and will attach to any monitor with BNC inputs. I use my 2000 and 3100s with a Mitsubishi Diamond Pro21TX, and it looks great! The cables show up on EBay pretty often, for about $10. Any 50pin SCSI hard drive should work for you, up to whatever the maximum capacity they offered in a 50 pin. The modern ultra, ultra2, LVD, etc. drives won't work. I don't know the disk footprint of VMS past 5.x, so I can't speak to how much is enough for 7.2. Good luck getting it running! We all need to do our part to hold back the tides of progress :) clint On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Billy D'Augustine wrote: > I've been lurking here for about a month now. A friend of mine told me there > were a lot of DECheads here, so I signed up. I've been puttering around with > big iron for about a few years, but I don't have anything left (had two VAX > 730's and several PDP-11's - an 11/34, 11/73 and what I think was either an > 11/04 or an 11/03... I'm sorta regretting getting rid of any of them... I'd > like to get back into hacking Unibuss stuff someday) > > Anyways, I recently got a VAXstation 4000/60 from e-bay, for what I > considered to be a nice price. Works fine. Had VMS 5.5-2 on it, but I got > the hobbyist license and VAX/VMS 7.2 CD from montagar (good deal!). > > It only has 24mb of RAM - 8mb built in, and four 4mb chips, leaving two > slots open. Unfortunately, the best I can do on that setup would be 32mb > RAM. I know the machine can do 104mb (96mb in chips, I guess that would be > six 16mb chips), but I'm not sure of the type of memory used. > > It also has two RZ25's, which are a bit tight. What limitations do I have on > drives that can be installed? > > I'm not using the frame buffer. My intention even before I received it was > to run a serial console. But I think it might be fun to run a graphical > display. Have no idea what type of frame buffer is installed, except that it > has an odd sub-D connector with three mini-BNCs inside. What's the specs on > the monitor that can be connected? Can I get an an adapter cable to connect > it to my PC monitor? > > > > > From mbg at world.std.com Fri Nov 3 19:56:22 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: PDP-10 Emulator (was: Re: MULTICS Installation, Halifax) Message-ID: <200011040156.UAA26075@world.std.com> >> Megan Gentry's early emulator work seems to have disappeared, maybe >> it's just no longer accessable online. > >Megan has the real thing, tho, doesn't she? Yes, I do... And I removed mine a few months ago for various reasons, some legal. I hope to make it available again at some point... heck, I hope to get a chance to work on it again at some point... but I think Tim Stark's effort is the best chance at the moment... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From THETechnoid at home.com Fri Nov 3 20:15:19 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: VAX 4000/60 In-Reply-To: <002501c045ea$0c8e73a0$2001a8c0@my.domain> Message-ID: <20001104020747.GXXE2410.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> The frambuffer is likely the stock one - 1280x1024x256colors. I've got one of these machines and just just just got it up and running VMS. If you need any help, lemme know. Ed KIrby at CPB 828-274-5963 has the 19" monitor for your machine. Regards, Jeff In <002501c045ea$0c8e73a0$2001a8c0@my.domain>, on 11/03/00 at 09:15 PM, "Billy D'Augustine" said: >I've been lurking here for about a month now. A friend of mine told me >there were a lot of DECheads here, so I signed up. I've been puttering >around with big iron for about a few years, but I don't have anything >left (had two VAX 730's and several PDP-11's - an 11/34, 11/73 and what I >think was either an 11/04 or an 11/03... I'm sorta regretting getting rid >of any of them... I'd like to get back into hacking Unibuss stuff >someday) >Anyways, I recently got a VAXstation 4000/60 from e-bay, for what I >considered to be a nice price. Works fine. Had VMS 5.5-2 on it, but I got >the hobbyist license and VAX/VMS 7.2 CD from montagar (good deal!). >It only has 24mb of RAM - 8mb built in, and four 4mb chips, leaving two >slots open. Unfortunately, the best I can do on that setup would be 32mb >RAM. I know the machine can do 104mb (96mb in chips, I guess that would >be six 16mb chips), but I'm not sure of the type of memory used. >It also has two RZ25's, which are a bit tight. What limitations do I have >on drives that can be installed? >I'm not using the frame buffer. My intention even before I received it >was to run a serial console. But I think it might be fun to run a >graphical display. Have no idea what type of frame buffer is installed, >except that it has an odd sub-D connector with three mini-BNCs inside. >What's the specs on the monitor that can be connected? Can I get an an >adapter cable to connect it to my PC monitor? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Nov 3 21:13:27 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: EC-1 fiasco.... In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001103113955.01a42278@208.226.86.10> References: <3A030D71.3BC79803@vbe.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001103221327.0befd430@mailhost.intellistar.net> Chuck, That was RUDE and totally uncalled for. Michael clearly asked for opinions of what the EC-1 was worth. He didn't ask for offers. He could have just as well put it directly on E-bay without saying a thing about it on this list. If you think he was "trolling" and "had no integrity" then you shouldn't have made him an offer. Frankly, if I don't like someone's methods I won't do business with them period, no matter how rare the object or how appealing the deal is. In any event, I KNOW of the amount of several of the offers that he recieved and they were far in excess of your's so you wouldn't have gotten it anyway. Furthermore, I have now seen his offer to sell it to the highest bidder on this list with an opening bid of $350 and I KNOW that he had already recieved a bid of $350 so I feel that he is doing the list members, and yourself, a favor by keeping the bidding to list members only. No, I'm not going to bid on it. I have no interest in this item other than curiousity so I think reasonably neutral in this matter. Joe Rigdon At 11:49 AM 11/3/00 -0600, you wrote: >Normally, I'm not a mean person. > >Michael, you're an asshole. > >#1 was sending out a message titled "FS: Heathkit EC-1" when you had no >intention of selling it. >#2 was forwarding private correspondence to the list where no one fucking >cares that I think you were not being completely honest in your email. > >It wasn't like you didn't "know" about E-bay, after all you've got 102 >people sending you feedback on how they liked the things they bought from >you there. And as a veteran seller you no doubt have researched what other >EC-1's sold for on EBay before you posted to this list. > >So you deliberately trolled the list, perhaps to "generate interest" in >your future Ebay listing, and I think that sucks. I stand by my assertion >that you have no integrity. > >--Chuck > >At 01:09 PM 11/3/2000 -0600, you wrote: >> Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 12:54:39 -0600 >> From:Michael Melland >> To: Chuck McManis >> >>Chuck McManis wrote: > >[go back and read it if you want] > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Nov 3 21:24:33 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: EC-1 fiasco.... In-Reply-To: References: <3A0363B0.E57EF4E9@home.com> <3A0363B0.E57EF4E9@home.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001103222433.0bef9f4c@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:41 PM 11/3/00 -0500, Jeff wrote: > Could we please take this discussion to private email's? At >this stage, it is hardly reflecting well on any of those involved. >It would be better served if handled in private. Better yet, drop it entirely. Name calling isn't going to resolve anything weather it's in public or private. Joe From richard at idcomm.com Fri Nov 3 20:20:30 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024 References: <001c01c045f3$8a6f18c0$25769a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <001801c04605$ceb93940$8d483cd1@winbook> please see remarks embedded below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: ajp166 To: Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 4:59 PM Subject: Re: Monitor for iSBC 8024 > From: Richard Erlacher > > > >The Z80 core is about three times the size of the 650x core and really > can't > >do anything the 650x core can't do quite a bit faster. If you clock the > two > > That may be true, I don't care. It's a "but, who cares" thing. If a > manufacturer used z80 in a product and wanted an improved product > do you think they will drop z80 or find a way to to package it tighter. > Since cores were not germane to the topic at hand, you're right. However, if a manufacturer uses a Z80 and wants more performance, the thing's still made, so all he has to do is buy higher performance devices and adjust whatever timing parameters are involved. If he designs a new product with the thing, however, he gets what he deserves. That goes for using any CPU rather than an MCU. > > >Gate arrays are not relevant to the typical microcontroller application. > >The gate arrays are handy when an MCU is not fast enough, but for short > >runs, where the MCU's shine, the FPGA's and CPLD's are much slower to > >develop. $100K is a bout the minimal cost for a gate array application. An MCU application doesn't require that sort of up-front outlay in general. FPGA's are in between somewhere, but higher than the MCU's. That's why several vendors have core+ products now. You design the FPGA around the core in an array including whatever memory and peripheral functions are required. That makes sense on the way to a full ASIC design, in the event volume warrants it. It's not like the '80's any more. If your product is profitable enough to be worthy of any sort of volume production, someone else will steal it if you don't use the most cost-effective production methods. Therefore, you don't waste money on MPU's if an MCU will do the job for less cost. > > > You only have worked with low volume stuff then. In the high volume > world it's common for vendors to suff parts into ASICs as a cost > reduction > or product design protection. > You're onto something there, Allison, I normally work the first few monents of the product design cycle, i.e. from concept to first functional prototype. I've seldom worked on the final "productized" version, though I frequently see "fixes" or upgrades on the way to a new product version. However, that's not what the topic is. > > >The single-chip examples I think about when I'm considering what to use > are > >frequently the Scenix SX family. They're as fast as a core in an FPGA, > and, > > Who cares. I didnt' exclusivly say speed was the issue. You did. > Speed isn't the point behind using the SX. The SX will accomplish what a gate array would do in a large-volume application, though its cost is in the low-volume range, i.e. the parts are cheap regardless of your volume, because they're already high-volume products before you buy them. The speed is what allows you to implement complex functions with the relatively inexpensive part at speeds achievable only with gate arrays. That puts the mcy in the role of a logic element. If you code it to behave as an 8255, then that's what it is. The same component could function as a USART or some other "LSI." > > Allison > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 3 20:38:42 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: PT SOL-20 question Message-ID: I've been watching the Altair, IMSAI, and SOL-20 listings on eBay lately, more out of curiosity to see what they go for than anything else, but noticed something odd about a SOL-20 image. In the listing, the picture definately showed a SOL-20, but instead of the normal front panel showing 'SOL Terminal Computer' in both white and yellow lettering, this machine has a single 'Interactive Computer' in whie stylized 'computer font' across the front. Is this an OEM version of the SOL-20 sold under another name? The URL for the image in question is: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=463806006&ed=971997667 Thanks and take care Jeff -- Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From marvin at rain.org Fri Nov 3 20:46:41 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: Stretch References: <000001c045e3$6ee09a80$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com> <20001103231335.23580.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3A037891.3C621C6C@rain.org> Eric Smith wrote: > > It is an excellent book, and I'd highly recommend it to anyone who > is interested in how computer systems were designed in the late 1950s, > even if you have no specific interest in Stretch. In fact, much of the > material is still relevant to computer design today. Unfortunately it > is rare to find this much insightful analysis into a system design. Another VERY interesting book is "The Origins of Digital Computers", a collection of papers edited by Brian Randell. Authors include Babbage, Hollerith, Zuse, Aiken, and others. A quick search on ABE showed two copies available at $40 and $150. Hmmm, anyone know what it might be worth so I can put a copy on Ebay (just a slight poke at those disturbed by Michaels EC-1 post :))? From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 3 20:49:26 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question In-Reply-To: References: <20001103210005.ZSXZ14736.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: >The serial number doesn't actually matter. Lazy people get a single >hobbiest license, and install it on all their VAXen. I'm slightly >concerned they will come after me if I get a separate license for >each machine! (2-uVAX II's,uVAX III,VS2000,11-3100's,11/750,11/780!) Shoot, that's about how many CPU's I've got registered at the moment. I think there are a couple people with even more registered. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 3 19:53:15 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: EC-1 fiasco.... In-Reply-To: <3A0363B0.E57EF4E9@home.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, ip500 wrote: > Not that I really care personally---but behavior and and/or language > like this is offensive to most "civilized" people and really has no > place in a public forum. As has been stated several times in the past: I'm glad you put "civilized" in quotations, as it is a rather subjective concept, don't you think? > Grow Up Sellam. No. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 3 19:55:54 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: EC-1 fiasco.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Could we please take this discussion to private email's? At > this stage, it is hardly reflecting well on any of those involved. > It would be better served if handled in private. Well, you see, this is the exact problem with posting private replies back to the public list. Not only is it uncalled for, but it usually results in outbursts like this, making the offense doubly obnoxious. Michael Melland is a big turd. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 3 20:02:33 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: EC-1 fiasco.... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001103221327.0befd430@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Joe wrote: > That was RUDE and totally uncalled for. Michael clearly asked for Look, I can vouch for Chuck as a real stand-up guy. He has a legitimate gripe and was objecting to Mike's posting his private mail to the list, so if you want to talk RUDE and totally uncalled for then look at the real issue. I don't think it is at all "totally uncalled" for when someone is forced to defend themselves against such immature tactics. It was completely called for and well deserved. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From bills at adrenaline.com Fri Nov 3 21:13:01 2000 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: PT SOL-20 question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I've been watching the Altair, IMSAI, and SOL-20 listings on > eBay lately, more out of curiosity to see what they go for than > anything else, but noticed something odd about a SOL-20 image. In > the listing, the picture definately showed a SOL-20, but instead of > the normal front panel showing 'SOL Terminal Computer' in both white > and yellow lettering, this machine has a single 'Interactive > Computer' in whie stylized 'computer font' across the front. Is this > an OEM version of the SOL-20 sold under another name? The "name plate" is just a piece of paper behind clear plexiglass, like the front panel of an IMSAI. Anybody could resell it and put whatever they wanted to in the space. Bill From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 3 20:04:29 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: PT SOL-20 question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Jeff Hellige wrote: > I've been watching the Altair, IMSAI, and SOL-20 listings on > eBay lately, more out of curiosity to see what they go for than > anything else, but noticed something odd about a SOL-20 image. In > the listing, the picture definately showed a SOL-20, but instead of > the normal front panel showing 'SOL Terminal Computer' in both white > and yellow lettering, this machine has a single 'Interactive > Computer' in whie stylized 'computer font' across the front. Is this > an OEM version of the SOL-20 sold under another name? The URL for > the image in question is: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=463806006&ed=971997667 That's very interesting. I've never seen this before. I'll fire off a note to Lee Felsenstein (the designer) to see if he can shed some light on it. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Fri Nov 3 21:24:09 2000 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: Rationalizations References: Message-ID: <006501c0460e$b34cdfa0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> When I picked up my first old machine it was to give linux networking a try. My brother in law had an old 386 that he couldn't use and I figured that it would be a challenge. Then a 486 appeared and then another, then I picked up an IBM XT because it was original and for $.50 cdn I figured the paper alone was work that much. I then stared adopting any unwanted and FREE machines, I then stretched that to any I could buy with pocket change. Then I saw a MAC II si for $15 it seemed like a good deal. My wife reminded me tonight that she actually bought that one for me so I hadn't yet spent more than pocket change on a machine yet. Tonight I got her to buy me an Amstrad PC1640 it was only the second one I'd seen and this one was complete except for the joystick. The main power comes through the monitor and there is a slot for batteries on top of the case. Well there's still that AT&T unixPC calling me from across town. I did just pick up 6 free machines (Mac si, (2)LC, quadra, Toshiba 2400 and amiga2000) so with all that pocket change I saved I'm not really going over budget like I would be if I picked up a sparc 10. From badger at vbe.com Fri Nov 3 21:49:18 2000 From: badger at vbe.com (Michael Melland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: EC-1 fiasco.... References: <3A0363B0.E57EF4E9@home.com> Message-ID: <005b01c04612$35e30540$23824d40@0019896170> > Could we please take this discussion to private email's? Thanks Jeff..... I believe Chuck and I buried the hatchet between us and made peace prior to 4:00 PM this afternoon. Like I told Chuck.... I apologize for resending his mail to me to the list. We put our problem to rest and hopefully everyone else can too. That's the problem with computers.... too easy to hit the send button before the brain engages. Regards, Mike Melland From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 3 22:07:22 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: PT SOL-20 question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd always assumed, not having the opportunity to get up close and personal with one, that the 'name plate' panel was plastic with the lettering silk screened or otherwise painted on it? How is the plexiglass held onto the front of the machine? Jeff > >The "name plate" is just a piece of paper behind clear >plexiglass, like the front panel of an IMSAI. Anybody >could resell it and put whatever they wanted to in the >space. > >Bill -- Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ncherry at home.net Fri Nov 3 22:15:13 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: Z80 Starter kit docs? Message-ID: <3A038D51.4CAE0B24@home.net> I have a lovely Z80 starter kit (in my office at work) and would like to know if any has the DOC's to this computer. This one is nice because I got it for $10. The power supply/case was hand built with a punch and press. And the board was modified with wire wrap. The person who built it did a beautiful job. Which is why I'll never sell that computer! I use it to show how we used to do things, it's kind of art work (that you can program! :-). Man my hands hurt just looking at it. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From ncherry at home.net Fri Nov 3 22:16:50 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX II BA123? Message-ID: <3A038DB2.3E5258BA@home.net> Can I replace a KA630 with a KA650 in a MicroVAX II? -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 3 21:37:59 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: PT SOL-20 question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Jeff Hellige wrote: > I'd always assumed, not having the opportunity to get up > close and personal with one, that the 'name plate' panel was plastic > with the lettering silk screened or otherwise painted on it? How is > the plexiglass held onto the front of the machine? It slides into a slot that holds it in place. If not for the wood sides it could slide out on either end quite easily. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 3 21:39:06 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: Z80 Starter kit docs? In-Reply-To: <3A038D51.4CAE0B24@home.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Neil Cherry wrote: > I have a lovely Z80 starter kit (in my office at work) and would like to > know if any has the DOC's to this computer. You forgot to tell us who manufacturered it :) It wouldn't happen to be an SD Systems, would it? If so, I have the manual (and more importantly, know where it is). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ncherry at home.net Fri Nov 3 22:58:39 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: Z80 Starter kit docs? References: Message-ID: <3A03977F.C8E22868@home.net> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Neil Cherry wrote: > > > I have a lovely Z80 starter kit (in my office at work) and would like to > > know if any has the DOC's to this computer. > > You forgot to tell us who manufacturered it :) It wouldn't happen to be > an SD Systems, would it? Yup, sorry I didn't know there was any other vender for the the Z80 Starter Kit. I went as far as disassembling the ROMs, which I documented (I think). I also have a Applied Microsystems Z80 emulator attached. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From bills at adrenaline.com Fri Nov 3 23:06:38 2000 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: PT SOL-20 question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'd always assumed, not having the opportunity to get up > close and personal with one, that the 'name plate' panel was plastic > with the lettering silk screened or otherwise painted on it? How is > the plexiglass held onto the front of the machine? WARNING! BAD ASCII ART FOLLOWS... Looking from the side (like you cut it in half in a parallel plane to the wood sides), the sheet metal is shaped something like this: ___ _ \ /I\/ <--Top cover hooks here |I |I |I |I |I |I |I \I/\ - | | Single lines are the metal, the "I" characters represent the plexi. You smooth the paper to the back of the plexi and slide it into position as one piece. Then this piece (which is one solid piece including the area around the keyboard) hooks onto the front bottom of the case and drops in between the wood sides. The wood side panels cover the ends so the plexi can't move. Then the top cover hooks onto the front cover and drops over the back of the frame and is held in place with screws. From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 3 23:10:05 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: PT SOL-20 question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's good to hear...it bodes well for being able to find a replacement backing or possibly even make a repro without too much trouble. If UPS doesn't destroy it enroute, it looks like I may be aquiring a SOL-20, but without that particular piece. Jeff >On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >> I'd always assumed, not having the opportunity to get up >> close and personal with one, that the 'name plate' panel was plastic >> with the lettering silk screened or otherwise painted on it? How is >> the plexiglass held onto the front of the machine? > >It slides into a slot that holds it in place. If not for the wood sides >it could slide out on either end quite easily. > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org -- Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bills at adrenaline.com Fri Nov 3 23:19:02 2000 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: PT SOL-20 question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > You smooth the paper to the back of the plexi and slide it into > position as one piece. Then this piece (which is one solid piece > including the area around the keyboard) hooks onto the front bottom > of the case and drops in between the wood sides. The wood side panels > cover the ends so the plexi can't move. Then the top cover hooks > onto the front cover and drops over the back of the frame and is > held in place with screws. And I meant to add that it is a very clever design. Much better (more functional, easier to use) than anything OSI ever came up with. Their look-alike, the C4P, stinks in comparison. You have to turn the case upside down to open it, all of the components are attached to the metal that makes up the upper surface of the case, miserable to work on. From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 3 23:21:47 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement In-Reply-To: <001d01c045f3$bb442a30$25769a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, ajp166 wrote: > From: Don Maslin > > > >Now Allison, he just proved the point that ZCPR does not increase the > >bulk of CP/M, whereas Win3.1 does. Therefore, ZCPM is better! > > > Stull no arguement, just not the question at hand. DOS like CP/M > can have any number of user interfaces, size for the moment is > unimportant > as it GUI vs Command line. > > You'd like the version I did for laughs that looked a lot like RSTS > running > the BASIC interface rather than DCL. Yes, I mean the user enviornment is > inside basic and the command line would be BASIC. I used LLL BASIC > to do it as its available as source and all. So what if CCP {or ZCPR} > is nominally 2k, I changed the load point in the BIOS and allowed 8k for > that. > > Is the user interface different? Yes. Is it CP/M, still? Yes. Nifty, Allison! - don From mac at Wireless.Com Sat Nov 4 01:17:08 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024 In-Reply-To: <001c01c045f3$8a6f18c0$25769a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: Just some data; sometimes data helps. Year Chip #transistors Die Size ---- ---- ------------ -------- 74 8080 4,800 20 mm^2 75 6502 4,000 21 mm^2 76 Z80 8,500 18 mm^2 -Mike C On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, ajp166 wrote: > From: Richard Erlacher > > > >The Z80 core is about three times the size of the 650x core and really > can't > >do anything the 650x core can't do quite a bit faster. If you clock the > two > > > That may be true, I don't care. It's a "but, who cares" thing. If a > manufacturer used z80 in a product and wanted an improved product > do you think they will drop z80 or find a way to to package it tighter. > > >Gate arrays are not relevant to the typical microcontroller application. > >The gate arrays are handy when an MCU is not fast enough, but for short > >runs, where the MCU's shine, the FPGA's and CPLD's are much slower to > >develop. > > > You only have worked with low volume stuff then. In the high volume > world it's common for vendors to suff parts into ASICs as a cost > reduction > or product design protection. > > >The single-chip examples I think about when I'm considering what to use > are > >frequently the Scenix SX family. They're as fast as a core in an FPGA, > and, > > > Who cares. I didnt' exclusivly say speed was the issue. You did. > > Allison > > From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 4 00:30:14 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: Z80 Starter kit docs? In-Reply-To: <3A03977F.C8E22868@home.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Neil Cherry wrote: > Yup, sorry I didn't know there was any other vender for the the Z80 > Starter Kit. I went as far as disassembling the ROMs, which I documented > (I think). I also have a Applied Microsystems Z80 emulator attached. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't someone else who also came up with a Z80 "Starter Kit". If you want a copy of the manual please contact me at . Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 4 02:28:08 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:35 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX II BA123? In-Reply-To: <3A038DB2.3E5258BA@home.net> (message from Neil Cherry on Fri, 03 Nov 2000 23:16:50 -0500) References: <3A038DB2.3E5258BA@home.net> Message-ID: <20001104082808.29156.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Can I replace a KA630 with a KA650 in a MicroVAX II? Yes. The KA630, KA650, and KA655 use the same cab kit. However the KA650 and KA655 use MS650 memory. MS630 memory will not work with them. Although it appears that DEC did not sell a MicroVAX III as a new product, they offered a MicroVAX II to MicroVAX III upgrade that included the KA650, MS650, and a new nameplate. I've heard of the MicroVAX II/III being upgraded to the KA655 and then being called a MicroVAX III+. I don't know whether DEC ever officially offered that upgrade or referred to it by that name. I've upgraded a VAXstation II/GPX to a KA655 with three 16MB MS650 cards and have run NetBSD on it. I have not tried to install VMS. From dankolb at ox.compsoc.net Sat Nov 4 04:54:02 2000 From: dankolb at ox.compsoc.net (Dan Kolb) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Rationalizations In-Reply-To: <006501c0460e$b34cdfa0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> References: <006501c0460e$b34cdfa0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <00110410540200.25642@kronos> On Sat, 04 Nov 2000, Mike Kenzie wrote: > ...got her to buy me an Amstrad PC1640 it was only the second > one I'd seen and this one was complete except for the > joystick. The main power comes through the monitor and > there is a slot for batteries on top of the case. I've got the 1512, also without a joystick. I think the joystick was optional, anyway. I've stuck a 10Mb hard disk outside it, so when I last used it (a couple of years ago), it was running DOS 5 and GEM Dekstop 1. Good machines for their time, except I didn't like the keyboard. And the batteries didn't last very long, even with alkalines. Seeing as it's now stuck in a box in my loft, I'm going to be looking to off-load it to whoever wants to have it, along with a couple of IBM ATs (one without a keyboard), a couple of Epson PC+ (with 3 monitors each), a Sanyo almost-PC compatible (don't know the model number as it's sitting at home), and *possibly* (haven't decided yet) an Epson AX/2 (286). Pick-up in the UK only (I live off M40 Jn. 3 for a rough idea). Ideally would like to swap any/all of it for a DEC RA70 or RA71 drive. And also a ribbon for a DECWriter IV. I'll be starting to get rid of it when I come back from Uni, so after the 2nd December. Dan -- dankolb@ox.compsoc.net Oxford University Computer Society Secretary --I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any comments or opinions expressed; don't trust everything you read above-- From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 4 09:12:23 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: PT SOL-20 question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The C4P looks cheaper, more stripped down. Since it used it's own proprietary bus, vice the S-100, at least you would need to worry about opening the thing too often! It's styling was definately taken from the SOL though. Jeff > >And I meant to add that it is a very clever design. Much better >(more functional, easier to use) than anything OSI ever came up >with. Their look-alike, the C4P, stinks in comparison. You have >to turn the case upside down to open it, all of the components >are attached to the metal that makes up the upper surface of the >case, miserable to work on. -- Power Computing PowerCurve, 400mhz G3, Mac OS 9.0.4 Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From richard at idcomm.com Sat Nov 4 09:43:10 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024 References: Message-ID: <004f01c04675$f02ef0e0$99483cd1@winbook> Pleasesee embedded remarks below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Cheponis To: Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 12:17 AM Subject: Re: Monitor for iSBC 8024 > Just some data; sometimes data helps. > > Year Chip #transistors Die Size > ---- ---- ------------ -------- > 74 8080 4,800 20 mm^2 > 75 6502 4,000 21 mm^2 > 76 Z80 8,500 18 mm^2 > > -Mike C That's interesting! I was comparing the quoted sizes of a couple of HDL versions available on the web. The smalles 650x I found was about 3200 gates, while the smallest Z80 was listed at 9200. It's difficult to say whether that's the actually-used gate count, or whether it's the gates used as a consequence of the implementation. If a logic cell is used, regardless of how much of that LC is used, the "gates" contained within it are gone, whether it's a nand gate or an adder, or whatever. The counts listed within an IP item description usually are reflective of what's used rather than what's consumed, so it can be quite misleading. Sometimes they specify how many cells it uses in a given array series, which gives a better count of consumed resources if one's looking to use that particular family. If one wishes to use something else, however, it's tempting to use the number of cells x the number of gates each cell represents, which is often "optimistic" with respect to what's likely to be the actual result of a fit. Eric Smith reminded me some weeks back that the Z80 has two complete register sets, which pretty quickly leads me to conclude it's justified in consuming considerably more resources in an array than the 650x core. One might conclude that the 8080 should lie between the two, since it has more registers than the 650x, yet fewer than the Z80. The transistor count is not quite reflective of the register resources, but it does appear that the 8080 has more transistors used than the 650x. > > On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, ajp166 wrote: > > > From: Richard Erlacher > > > > > > >The Z80 core is about three times the size of the 650x core and really From THETechnoid at home.com Fri Nov 3 20:15:19 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: VAX 4000/60 In-Reply-To: <002501c045ea$0c8e73a0$2001a8c0@my.domain> Message-ID: <20001104020747.GXXE2410.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> The frambuffer is likely the stock one - 1280x1024x256colors. I've got one of these machines and just just just got it up and running VMS. If you need any help, lemme know. Ed KIrby at CPB 828-274-5963 has the 19" monitor for your machine. Regards, Jeff In <002501c045ea$0c8e73a0$2001a8c0@my.domain>, on 11/03/00 at 09:15 PM, "Billy D'Augustine" said: >I've been lurking here for about a month now. A friend of mine told me >there were a lot of DECheads here, so I signed up. I've been puttering >around with big iron for about a few years, but I don't have anything >left (had two VAX 730's and several PDP-11's - an 11/34, 11/73 and what I >think was either an 11/04 or an 11/03... I'm sorta regretting getting rid >of any of them... I'd like to get back into hacking Unibuss stuff >someday) >Anyways, I recently got a VAXstation 4000/60 from e-bay, for what I >considered to be a nice price. Works fine. Had VMS 5.5-2 on it, but I got >the hobbyist license and VAX/VMS 7.2 CD from montagar (good deal!). >It only has 24mb of RAM - 8mb built in, and four 4mb chips, leaving two >slots open. Unfortunately, the best I can do on that setup would be 32mb >RAM. I know the machine can do 104mb (96mb in chips, I guess that would >be six 16mb chips), but I'm not sure of the type of memory used. >It also has two RZ25's, which are a bit tight. What limitations do I have >on drives that can be installed? >I'm not using the frame buffer. My intention even before I received it >was to run a serial console. But I think it might be fun to run a >graphical display. Have no idea what type of frame buffer is installed, >except that it has an odd sub-D connector with three mini-BNCs inside. >What's the specs on the monitor that can be connected? Can I get an an >adapter cable to connect it to my PC monitor? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Nov 4 09:34:06 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: PT SOL-20 question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=463806006&ed=971997667 > > That's very interesting. I've never seen this before. I'll fire off a > note to Lee Felsenstein (the designer) to see if he can shed some light on > it. > *boggle* "Gee, that's an interesting little creature. I think I'll go ask god if he made that with more fur...." *wanders off mumbling incoherently* g. From THETechnoid at home.com Sat Nov 4 09:53:38 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: System/36 Sleeping? In-Reply-To: <20001104020747.GXXE2410.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <20001104155007.UOEY2410.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> The system 36 I got last weekend got a new 220volt non-locking plug the other day. I plugged the machine in, hear the current running in the machine (it humms a little bit), hit the main power switch on the machine. Exactly nothing happened. No lights, not sparks, no changes at all. I checked and I did wire the plug correctly. The voltage is correct, what am I doing wrong? I checked for juice and it's there, I checked and reset the 20amp breaker inside the machine and the 30amp breaker in the house's breaker-box. I have not yet connected a terminal to the machine. Could that have any bearing? The 'soft' power switch on the front panel (yea Finally!) does nothing. The key switch is set for 'service' and the docs say that is a full-function, not just diagnostic position. I presume it was run that way for most of it's time. Any suggestions? Thanks, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 4 11:29:58 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement Message-ID: <016401c04685$fde0d9a0$25769a8d@ajp166> From: Don Maslin >> the BASIC interface rather than DCL. Yes, I mean the user enviornment is >> inside basic and the command line would be BASIC. I used LLL BASIC >> to do it as its available as source and all. So what if CCP {or ZCPR} >> is nominally 2k, I changed the load point in the BIOS and allowed 8k for >> that. >> >> Is the user interface different? Yes. Is it CP/M, still? Yes. > >Nifty, Allison! > - don Now you understand where I get the idea that CP/M can do anything or at a minimum will not get in the way! When you consider the bdos is 3.5k and the bios can be smaller than 512bytes it's a pretty powerful package in 4k. The rest is user programming. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 4 11:24:08 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024 Message-ID: <016301c04685$fd497ba0$25769a8d@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher >That's interesting! I was comparing the quoted sizes of a couple of HDL >versions available on the web. The smalles 650x I found was about 3200 >gates, while the smallest Z80 was listed at 9200. It's difficult to say This is true. It is a larger cpu. >Eric Smith reminded me some weeks back that the Z80 has two complete >register sets, which pretty quickly leads me to conclude it's justified in To be exact the z80 has A A' 8BIT BC BC' 16BIT DE DE' 16BIT HL HL' 16BIT IX 16BIT IY 16BIT SP 16BIT F F' ~8BIT FLAGS PC 16BIT I 8BIT (HIGH 8BITS OF INTERUPT VECTOR) R 8BITS (REFRESH ADDRESS) 6502 A 8BIT X 8BIT Y 8BIT PC 16BIT SP 9BIT (HIGH BIT =1) STATUS 8BIT Big difference in the number of bits for storage alone. It accounts for most of the die area (ram/registers that is). >consuming considerably more resources in an array than the 650x core. One >might conclude that the 8080 should lie between the two, since it has more >registers than the 650x, yet fewer than the Z80. The transistor count is >not quite reflective of the register resources, but it does appear that the >8080 has more transistors used than the 650x. 8080 is not near as efficient in logic usage as z80. The different is in memory vs register usage in programming. A reasonably complex 6502 program will always use more ram than similar in z80 if only due to need for multiple pointers, local storage and parameter passing. A while back I said I passed on an cmos ASIC project that was going to use 8088 (actually 80186 core) as a embedded app. the client insisted on it and planned to inegrate 32-64k of rom and at least 4-16k of ram with it. Application, remotely read peaking power meter. People do this! Compared to the 80186 core the z80 is tiny! Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 4 12:06:36 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024 In-Reply-To: <016301c04685$fd497ba0$25769a8d@ajp166> References: <016301c04685$fd497ba0$25769a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20001104180636.1998.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > To be exact the z80 has [list of registers deleted] You forgot IFF2. :-) And both the Z-80 and 6502 have at least one more bit that's "sort of" programmer visible, the NMI edge-detect flop. > 6502 > SP 9BIT (HIGH BIT =1) It's either 8 bits, or 16 bits with the high 8 being stuck at "00000001". There's no meaningful reason to consider it a 9-bit register. I personally only find it sensible to count the bits that change, so I call it 8. > STATUS 8BIT 7 bits, or 8 with one bit stuck high.. From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 4 11:25:46 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: PT SOL-20 question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Gene Buckle wrote: > > That's very interesting. I've never seen this before. I'll fire off a > > note to Lee Felsenstein (the designer) to see if he can shed some light on > > it. > > > *boggle* > > "Gee, that's an interesting little creature. I think I'll go ask god if > he made that with more fur...." > > *wanders off mumbling incoherently* Ok, Lee is not a god. He's just a regular guy like everyone else here. He comes to every VCF, and he's been one of the Exhibit Judges since the beginning. You meet a lot of neat people at the VCF, and Lee is one of them. But if you approach him like he's a god or something, he'll look at you like you're insane and will want to get away from you as quickly as possible. Lee can also be found at: Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 4 11:28:09 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: PT SOL-20 question (fwd) Message-ID: God speaks... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 08:52:15 -0800 From: Lee Felsenstein Subject: Re: PT SOL-20 question (fwd) Sellam, I have never seen such a label either. The labels were never fastened in, and it was understood that a VAR or equivalent could replace the factory label with anything. We considered this a feature. The Nepali character conversion is most interesting and puts the machine in a unique category. From the photo it looks hand-built, and one can imagine how few machines were sold into Nepali use. If it shows up on display at VCF, it's a good contender for the "obscurity" prize. --- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 4 12:48:50 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024 Message-ID: <017501c04690$7d7ec9b0$25769a8d@ajp166> From: Eric Smith >Allison wrote: >> To be exact the z80 has >[list of registers deleted] > >You forgot IFF2. :-) I know that but consider who most of this is aimed at. No question the z80 has many more bits than 6502, 8080, 8085, 9900, and a pot load more. Only the 1802 has more stoarge (though simpler elsewhere). >And both the Z-80 and 6502 have at least one more >bit that's "sort of" programmer visible, the NMI >edge-detect flop. I tried to limit it to the programmer accessable. If we add temp registers and whole knows what in the state or microcode portion of the machine it surely would grow more. The 6502 distinguished itself in the same fashon as PDP-8. That is it was simple, cheap to manufacture and had an adaquate instruction set to do a lot of tasks. it's cheapness was due to the ease of implementation in silicon. > >> 6502 >> SP 9BIT (HIGH BIT =1) > >It's either 8 bits, or 16 bits with the high 8 being stuck at "00000001". >There's no meaningful reason to consider it a 9-bit register. I personally >only find it sensible to count the bits that change, so I call it 8. Agreed. The 9bit comes from the Osborne view of microprocessors. > >> STATUS 8BIT > >7 bits, or 8 with one bit stuck high.. same deal. We can consider the unused bit as "reserved". Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 4 11:41:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Rationalizations In-Reply-To: <006501c0460e$b34cdfa0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> from "Mike Kenzie" at Nov 3, 0 10:24:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1545 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001104/42f8d8ca/attachment.ksh From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sat Nov 4 13:09:27 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Lisa mystery switch Message-ID: <36717257@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 945 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001104/4c1ecf8d/attachment.bin From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Nov 4 13:20:56 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: PT SOL-20 question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ok, Lee is not a god. He's just a regular guy like everyone else here. > > He comes to every VCF, and he's been one of the Exhibit Judges since the > beginning. You meet a lot of neat people at the VCF, and Lee is one of > them. But if you approach him like he's a god or something, he'll look at > you like you're insane and will want to get away from you as quickly as > possible. > I pretty much figured that, but you have to admit that it's pretty damn unique to be able to ask the guy that designed a computer if you have a question about it. I think that's one of the things I enjoy the most about preserving older computers. There's so damn much _class_ behind them. :) g. From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 4 13:33:11 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Lisa mystery switch In-Reply-To: <36717257@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> References: <36717257@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: The switch sounds like an adapter I've seen up on eBay a couple of times that supposedly allowed you to switch between the standard screen ratio (90 x 60 dpi) and the modified Mac XL screen ratio (72 x 72 dpi). Both times I've seen them listed, they included the plate as you describe with the toggle switch though they didn't include any additional information other than what the adapter did. I'm sure those on this list that are more knowledgable about the Lisa than I can provide additionl information on the part. As for the ROMs, according to the SUN do-it-yourself guide for the Lisa, the H/88 ROM set was used in the Macintosh XL with the standard screen ratio. Jeff >Just picked up a Lisa 2/10 and there's hope for full recovery (it >tries to boot and spins the HD noisily, though there's some major >screen flicker happening). One mysterious thing though: on the back, >installed in one of the expansion slot covers, there's a little >silver toggle switch with no label. Some wires lead into the guts of >the Lisa and I haven't bothered to take it apart any further yet. >When I had it in one position and turned on the Lisa, it beeped >angrily three times and gave me an error code of 52 with the "I/O" >board icon x-ed out. That code is listed as a possible COPS chip >problem, whatever the heck that means. Anyway, it acts much happier >when that switch is in the other position -- no beeps or errors and >I get all the way to the "boot from" screen where it wants a floppy >disk. >Any idea about the Mystery Switch? >Also, just to verify that I'm not insane, H/88 ROMS are stock, right? -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sat Nov 4 13:52:09 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Lisa WEIRD! Message-ID: <36718121@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1302 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001104/582b18d4/attachment.bin From sethm at loomcom.com Sat Nov 4 14:06:03 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Lisa mystery switch In-Reply-To: <36717257@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU>; from Marion.Bates@dartmouth.edu on Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 02:09:27PM -0500 References: <36717257@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <20001104120603.A1633@loomcom.com> On Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 02:09:27PM -0500, Marion Bates wrote: > Any idea about the Mystery Switch? This is the "Magic / More Magic" switch. Leave the switch in the "More Magic" position. -Seth From THETechnoid at home.com Sat Nov 4 14:18:01 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Lisa mystery switch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001104203932.AHB2410.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> How about a select/deselect for bitbanging a knot of TTL chips (ram upgrade over 4mb) ?? Or a hardware reset switch which did not destroy the contents of ram? An add-on hardware controller that you patch-in AFTER the self-test code has executed. Or a rom in place of some other rom that would fail self-test thus the 'bypass switch'. A toggle to boot from another physical hard disk drive which is no longer with the system since both positions don't work. A toggle whether to boot from disk or by x.25 over the serial port to an Amdahl mainframe? Better yet, a Fujitsu. ;-) Maybe if you hold down the keys: RSHIFT+Leftshift+CTRL-YPBQZXHRT+SPACE while switch in back whilst holding these keys. I've tried, it is possible. You will have to put the system unit on the floor so you can operate the power and toggle switches with your big toe or use your nose. I'd try flipping the switch several hundred times while the machine is powered to see what happens. Maybe on the 384th cycle, a counter enables a rom that displays the 'computer kill' program that was so popular on in the mid-eighties. This program simulated your computer freaking out and dying. The demo may be set to only continue executing while the switch is being rapidly toggled. The ends of the wires connected to the switch are twisted together and taped to the side of the case with a note saying "gotcha". One wire only is attached to Rom disable pin. The ends of the wires connected to the switch are twisted together an taped to the side of the case with a note saying "Send a postal money order to the address on reverse and we will tell you what this switch does". Same wire. One way to expose this kind of scam is to unscrew the retaining collar on the switch and pull very hard on the switch body. If the note comes out with the wires, you saved yourself a lot of speculation and can feel pride in not being 'taken-in'. Barring these and the several thousand other possibilities, opening the machine would be useful.... Just Funnin'. Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From donm at cts.com Sat Nov 4 15:00:52 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: CP/M 1.3 memory requirement In-Reply-To: <016401c04685$fde0d9a0$25769a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, ajp166 wrote: > From: Don Maslin > >> the BASIC interface rather than DCL. Yes, I mean the user enviornment > is > >> inside basic and the command line would be BASIC. I used LLL BASIC > >> to do it as its available as source and all. So what if CCP {or ZCPR} > >> is nominally 2k, I changed the load point in the BIOS and allowed 8k > for > >> that. > >> > >> Is the user interface different? Yes. Is it CP/M, still? Yes. > > > >Nifty, Allison! > > - don > > > Now you understand where I get the idea that CP/M can do anything or > at a minimum will not get in the way! When you consider the bdos is > 3.5k and the bios can be smaller than 512bytes it's a pretty powerful > package in 4k. The rest is user programming. > > Allison You are preaching to the choir, Allison. :) - don From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 4 14:09:34 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: PT SOL-20 question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Gene Buckle wrote: > I pretty much figured that, but you have to admit that it's pretty damn > unique to be able to ask the guy that designed a computer if you have a > question about it. I think that's one of the things I enjoy the most > about preserving older computers. There's so damn much _class_ behind > them. :) It's not common to be able to actually still talk to the designers of things we consider historical, which is another aspect that makes this hobby unique. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 4 15:19:01 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Lisa mystery switch In-Reply-To: <20001104203932.AHB2410.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: When you press the switch, does a little sign light up saying, "Please don't press the switch again"? From THETechnoid at home.com Sat Nov 4 15:18:16 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: System/36 still sleepin' Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <36718121@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <20001104211935.TFG2410.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> I checked the line voltage on the outlet and found it right at 250-253vac without a load. This circuit is rated at 30AMP, the machine's breaker is rated at 20AMP, and the machine is supposed to pull a max 8amp on the line making all things reasonable. So why no power-on? Nothing spins, no lights on the front-panel, nothing but the first-stage of the power supply humming slightly. I checked all internal fuses and all are good. Questions: Is 250vac too high? Someone mentioned 208 which is a large enough spread to make a difference in a smart power supply. If so, how do I modify the 36 for 250vac? Is there something I am just missing? Like a (very) concealed switch, safety interlocks, hard disk locks, wheel locks, leveling? Room-temp is a comfy 68degrees F give or take. All the high-voltage wireing is relatively new and looks good. It goes to a breaker in a modern breaker box. How would I check for a ground-fault on this line. Why would my dryer run and not the computer if there is something wrong with that line? I'm sure you can appreciate moving a several-hundred pound computer in. I'd love to see it work. Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 4 15:33:32 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: System/36 still sleepin' Suggestions? In-Reply-To: System/36 still sleepin' Suggestions? (THETechnoid@home.com) References: <36718121@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> <20001104211935.TFG2410.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <14852.32940.175053.438645@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 4, THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > I checked the line voltage on the outlet and found it right at 250-253vac > without a load. This circuit is rated at 30AMP, the machine's breaker is > rated at 20AMP, and the machine is supposed to pull a max 8amp on the line > making all things reasonable. > > So why no power-on? Nothing spins, no lights on the front-panel, nothing > but the first-stage of the power supply humming slightly. You mentioned safetey interlocks...Maybe there's a panel interlock that got jiggled during the move? Try removing and re-seating every outside panel that you can find. Have you tried connecting a console terminal to it yet? This may be way off (I don't know anything about S36 hardware) but an acquaintance of mine once beat his head against a wall for two days trying to power up a VAX 8700. As it turns out, you do this by typing a command on the console processor (a DEC Pro machine) which he hadn't connected yet. And...remember the "power-off" command in newer Sun OBP ROMs? A favorite joke around here is 'why can't I type "power-on" to turn it back on!!' ...but on newer Alpha machines (DS10, etc), you *CAN*. There's a PIC17C44 processor in there handling console operations that has its own little power supply. You can power-cycle the meat of the machine from a [potentially remote] console port. -Dave McGuire From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 4 16:50:40 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX II BA123? In-Reply-To: <3A038DB2.3E5258BA@home.net> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001104145007.00a39c50@208.226.86.10> At 11:16 PM 11/3/00 -0500, you wrote: >Can I replace a KA630 with a KA650 in a MicroVAX II? Yup, it was an "offically sanctioned" DEC upgrade for a while. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 4 16:53:56 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX II BA123? In-Reply-To: <20001104082808.29156.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <3A038DB2.3E5258BA@home.net> <3A038DB2.3E5258BA@home.net> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001104145150.00a3a160@208.226.86.10> At 08:28 AM 11/4/00 +0000, Eric Smith wrote: >Although it appears that DEC did not sell a MicroVAX III as a new >product, they offered a MicroVAX II to MicroVAX III upgrade that included >the KA650, MS650, and a new nameplate. Yup, but what I've not figured out is if you had to get the KA650-AA or the KA650-BA when you upgraded. (the -AA is a "full license" board but I don't know if VMS can figure that out or not.) --Chuck From louiss at gate.net Sat Nov 4 18:10:56 2000 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Lisa mystery switch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200011050010.TAA115790@flathead.gate.net> Well, I have to admit, these answers have been pretty funny. I kinda like the idea of ripping the switch out, to see if a note is attached. But seriously, this could very well be a device sold for the Lisa called the "ROM Switcher". Because Lisas used a number and shape of pixels in the video display different from the Mac, a kit was made available by Apple to adjust the screeen to the Mac standard. This involves new ROMs. However, with this kit installed, a Lisa can't run Lisa software (a Lisa without the kit CAN run Mac software, the video is just somewhat distorted). The ROM Switcher uses both sets of ROMs, and allows you to toggle the video mode back and forth. It should not, however, generate errors. Possibly, this is a homebrew version of the ROM Switcher, since the real one doesn't use wires hooked to the video card. Louis On Sat, 4 Nov 2000 13:19:01 -0800 (PST), Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >When you press the switch, does a little sign light up saying, "Please >don't press the switch again"? > > From jlewczyk at his.com Sat Nov 4 18:46:41 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (jlewczyk@his.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Lisa WEIRD! Message-ID: <200011050046.TAA10100@mail.his.com> If the connections are only to the video board, then the "magic switch" is simply a way of adjusting the "height" of the display. In one position, the video is full height, with the standard Lisa rectangular pixels. In the other position, the video is vertically squashed to produce square pixels. Its pretty low-tech. The device probably has adjustable resistors somewhere on a small circuit board in order to tweak the display for each position of the switch. If you pull it all off, you have just the standard Lisa (full height) display. I think that it would be pretty straight forward to homebrew one of them. The real Apple-supplied modification was more involved and produced a full height, square pixel display. It included a transformer which modified the screen height, a new video rom (which controlled generation of video sync signals and the Lisa serial #), and new boot roms. John jlewczyk@his.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Marion Bates Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 2:52 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Lisa WEIRD! Okay, so after my post I went and fiddled some more and lo and behold, after a few more power cycles it booted perfectly from the hard disk. It's running MacWorks Plus some version or other with Mac System 6.0.3. The hard disk sounds like it's full of sand (yikes) but otherwise it seems to be fine. :) This is where it gets bizarre. I took the top lid off to get at the video adjustment pots and managed to eliminate the vertical jumping etc. so the screen is pretty much back to normal operation. But inside, on that same board just below those adjustments, I saw two or three sets of jumper wires, the kind with the little spring-loaded L-clip at the end. One end of one of them is clipped to R1 right near the top of the board, and I can't see where the other end is without really gutting the machine, which I'm not ready to do just yet. Another jumper has one end connected to a leg of R21 and then it disappears inside. It also looks like there's a small alligator clip connected to a heat sink and leading off somewhere else. So it looks like someone went in there and jumped some connections, then closed it all back up and left it that way. I'm afraid to touch them. Maybe this is related to the mystery switch (see my earlier post). Strange... ? Somebody hotwired this Lisa? -- MB ------------------------------------------------- This message was sent via http://webmail.his.com. http://www.his.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 4 19:22:38 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024 In-Reply-To: <017501c04690$7d7ec9b0$25769a8d@ajp166> References: <017501c04690$7d7ec9b0$25769a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20001105012238.7264.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > And both the Z-80 and 6502 have at least one more > bit that's "sort of" programmer visible, the NMI > edge-detect flop. Allison wrote: > I tried to limit it to the programmer accessable. If > we add temp registers and whole knows what in the > state or microcode portion of the machine it surely > would grow more. I'm not including internal temporaries that are not exposed in any way either. But depending on how your hardware is wired, the NMI edge detect flop can have substantial influence on how you write your interrupt handler. Thus it is in fact programmer visible, though not as much as e.g. the Z-80's R register. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 4 19:48:15 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX II BA123? Message-ID: <01cf01c046ca$fa769f30$25769a8d@ajp166> >At 08:28 AM 11/4/00 +0000, Eric Smith wrote: >>Although it appears that DEC did not sell a MicroVAX III as a new >>product, they offered a MicroVAX II to MicroVAX III upgrade that included >>the KA650, MS650, and a new nameplate. Yes and the 3200, 3400 and 3600 seris VAXes had what cpus? Hint the KA650 was not a upgrade only cpu, it happens that it's Qbus and fits in any BAxx3 box. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 4 19:55:49 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024 Message-ID: <01d901c046cd$14ff2780$25769a8d@ajp166> >I'm not including internal temporaries that are not >exposed in any way either. But depending on how your >hardware is wired, the NMI edge detect flop can have >substantial influence on how you write your interrupt >handler. Thus it is in fact programmer visible, though >not as much as e.g. the Z-80's R register. It is a feature as they say. I like to use it for a RTC heartbeat as you bang it with and edge. Hard to use for CP/M as it hits the default FDB. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 4 20:10:59 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Monitor for iSBC 8024 Message-ID: <01e001c046cd$b4afbd30$25769a8d@ajp166> >I'm not including internal temporaries that are not >exposed in any way either. But depending on how your >hardware is wired, the NMI edge detect flop can have >substantial influence on how you write your interrupt >handler. Thus it is in fact programmer visible, though >not as much as e.g. the Z-80's R register. It is a feature as they say. I like to use it for a RTC heartbeat as you bang it with and edge. Hard to use for CP/M as it hits the default FDB. Z80 is as feature rich a cpu one could ask for at that time or since. Z180 and all added some nice touches. I happen to like the 8085 for mid sized tasks that are too big for 8048/9 but Z80 may not fit as well. SIN/SOUT and the four RST{5.5, 6.5, 7.5,TRAP) lines are handy for some things. THose interrupts and IO lines offere more than most minimal z80 systems without Zilog peripherals. The 8085 is often forgotten despite being a decent chip. Allison From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Nov 4 20:33:15 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >The serial number doesn't actually matter. Lazy people get a single > >hobbiest license, and install it on all their VAXen. I'm slightly > >concerned they will come after me if I get a separate license for > >each machine! (2-uVAX II's,uVAX III,VS2000,11-3100's,11/750,11/780!) > > Shoot, that's about how many CPU's I've got registered at the moment. I > think there are a couple people with even more registered. > I guess I'm not the most DECay'ed person here :) clint From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 4 20:49:48 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX II BA123? In-Reply-To: <01cf01c046ca$fa769f30$25769a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001104184058.02422610@208.226.86.10> At 08:48 PM 11/4/00 -0500, Allison wrote: >Yes and the 3200, 3400 and 3600 seris VAXes had what cpus? 3200 - KA650 3400 - KA640 (also the 3300) 3600 - KA650 (also the 3500) >Hint the KA650 was not a upgrade only cpu, it happens that it's Qbus >and fits in any BAxx3 box. The important point here is that in a BA23 or a BA123 only the KA630, KA650, and KA655 CPUs will work with the existing cabinet kit (console port connection etc). The KA640 and the KA660 are both constrained to living in BA2xx or BA4xx chassis since there wasn't a cab kit that would mount on the BA23 or BA123 plates. In terms of performance they rank KA630, KA640/KA650, KA655, KA660 However the KA640 has an on-board DSSI interface that gets 4MB/sec to the drives vs the Q-bus interface on the KA630, KA650, and KA655. The KA660 also has DSSI on the CPU card. The MicroVAX 3300/3400 were the same machine in different cabinets, the BA215 (narrow) and BA213 (wide). I've also seen them badged VAXServer 3300 or VAXServer 3400. The MicroVAX 3500 and 3600 only came in the BA213 primarily because without an on-board ethernet or disk interface, you were stuck using at least two slots for a DESQA and a KFQSA leaving you only 4 slots for the CPU + Memory + anything else. The MicroVAX 3800 and 3900 used the KA655 CPU to achieve somewhat better performance however the VAX 4000/200 in the same cabinet was faster still and had the advantage of the on-board DSSI for better disk throughput. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 4 20:52:58 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist License Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001104185037.01fb1500@208.226.86.10> After registering the TinyCluster I'll have about 14 registered: 2 uVAX II 1 uVAX III 1 VS3200 1 uV3400 1 VAX 4000/200 1 VAX 4000/300 1 VS3100/M76 1 uV3800 1 VS2000 4 VAX 4000/VLC --Chuck ('course they don't all run VMS at the same time. I've taken to writing the system name on the PAK and then putting it into the Field Circus pocket on the side of the chassis.) At 07:33 PM 11/4/00 -0700, you wrote: > I guess I'm not the most DECay'ed person here :) > >clint From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 4 20:46:49 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX II BA123? In-Reply-To: <01cf01c046ca$fa769f30$25769a8d@ajp166> References: <01cf01c046ca$fa769f30$25769a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20001105024649.7933.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Although it appears that DEC did not sell a MicroVAX III as a new > product, they offered a MicroVAX II to MicroVAX III upgrade that > icluded the KA650, MS650, and a new nameplate. Allison wrote: > Yes and the 3200, 3400 and 3600 seris VAXes had what cpus? > > Hint the KA650 was not a upgrade only cpu, it happens that it's Qbus > and fits in any BAxx3 box. And those don't say "MicroVAX III" on them anywhere, now do they? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 4 22:13:11 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX II BA123? Message-ID: <01f301c046e0$9885ad50$25769a8d@ajp166> From: Eric Smith >> Hint the KA650 was not a upgrade only cpu, it happens that it's Qbus >> and fits in any BAxx3 box. > >And those don't say "MicroVAX III" on them anywhere, now do they? None did. From MVII on the term became just Microvax despite going from MVIII, Nvax, NVAX-5 and other varients of the VAX on a chip. if You wanted a MicrovaxIII cpu in a new box you bought a Microvax3x00 (3200, 3400). Allison From rws at enteract.com Sat Nov 4 22:30:59 2000 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: System/36 still sleepin' Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <14852.32940.175053.438645@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Nov 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On November 4, THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > > So why no power-on? Nothing spins, no lights on the front-panel, nothing > > but the first-stage of the power supply humming slightly. OK, that's normal. That's the control supply humming. The whole computer is full of ferroresonant transformers. > You mentioned safetey interlocks...Maybe there's a panel interlock > that got jiggled during the move? Try removing and re-seating every > outside panel that you can find. There are no door interlocks. Also, the door latches may seem impossible to open unless you got the tool, or know how to open them without. Assuming you didn't get the tool, here's how: 1. Get a *large* paper clip and bend it to form an S. 2. Stick the end of the clip in the hole about 1/2 inch. 3. Move the clip to the left or right, so that the end inside the door moves toward the *center* of the door panel. You'll need to make the inside move to the left or right about 1/4 inch. 4. Try to pull the clip out. If you hook something, go to step 5; else go back to step 2. 5. Pull gently but firmly, wiggling a little (keep in mind that the latch is plastic and you will break it if you pull too hard, trust me) and at the same time push and pull on the edge of the door a little. It will pop open if you've got it right. 6. If you just can't get it, try another door. Some are harder to open than others, and some have the latches partly broken. If you get the idea that the latch design on these computers is awful, you're right :-) > Have you tried connecting a console terminal to it yet? This may be > way off (I don't know anything about S36 hardware) but an acquaintance > of mine once beat his head against a wall for two days trying to power > up a VAX 8700. As it turns out, you do this by typing a command on > the console processor (a DEC Pro machine) which he hadn't connected > yet. A console is not required to start it, although you can shut down from there. The one thing that strikes me right away, partly because you haven't mentioned it yet, is the Unit Emergency switch. It must be in the Power Enable position. When you press the Power button on the front panel, do you get a Power Check light, or any light for that matter? Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 4 23:01:50 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX II BA123? In-Reply-To: <01f301c046e0$9885ad50$25769a8d@ajp166> References: <01f301c046e0$9885ad50$25769a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20001105050150.9020.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > Hint the KA650 was not a upgrade only cpu, it happens that it's Qbus > and fits in any BAxx3 box. I wrote: > And those don't say "MicroVAX III" on them anywhere, now do they? Allison wrote: > None did. From MVII on the term became just Microvax despite going > from MVIII, Nvax, NVAX-5 and other varients of the VAX on a chip. > if You wanted a MicrovaxIII cpu in a new box you bought a Microvax3x00 > (3200, 3400). Bzzt! I've *personally* seen a BA123 MicroVAX II get upgraded to a MicroVAX III complete with a new nameplate with that name. It did NOT just say "MicroVAX". Maybe some did not, but it's flat-out incorrect to say that there were not machines with official "MicroVAX III" nameplates. From claudew at sprint.ca Sat Nov 4 23:52:26 2000 From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Vax 8350 offered to me -- worth getting it? Message-ID: <3A04F59A.7E38D6DC@sprint.ca> Hi I am being offered this computer. I think it's 3 large modules. I have large collection of micros from the 197x-198x but, I know almost nothing about vax'es... I would we prepared not to keep it or donate/trade parts or whole...I have no real space to keep this for a long time... It would be in Montreal, Canada. Is it worth the hassle of picking it up? What should I check for? My wish list : TRS80 III (I and IV too), NExT, older CP/M systems... Thanks Claude From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Nov 5 00:23:09 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX II BA123? In-Reply-To: <20001105050150.9020.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <01f301c046e0$9885ad50$25769a8d@ajp166> <01f301c046e0$9885ad50$25769a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001104222238.0228b4b0@208.226.86.10> At 05:01 AM 11/5/00 +0000, Eric wrote: >Bzzt! I've *personally* seen a BA123 MicroVAX II get upgraded to >a MicroVAX III complete with a new nameplate with that name. It did >NOT just say "MicroVAX". I've the BA23 Name plate that says MicroVAX III its pretty cool --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Nov 5 00:32:00 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Vax 8350 offered to me -- worth getting it? In-Reply-To: <3A04F59A.7E38D6DC@sprint.ca> Message-ID: > I am being offered this computer. > > I think it's 3 large modules. > > I have large collection of micros from the 197x-198x but, I know almost > nothing about vax'es... > > I would we prepared not to keep it or donate/trade parts or whole...I > have no real space to keep this for a long time... > > It would be in Montreal, Canada. > > Is it worth the hassle of picking it up? What should I check for? I used to have an 8250. The 8350 is (TMK) a dual CPU 8250. It's a VAXBI bus system and it's a lot of fun to play with. It will require at least two 30A 110v circuits to run it. g. From THETechnoid at home.com Sat Nov 4 23:44:07 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: System/36 still sleepin' Suggestions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001105065145.LCAB2410.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> In , on 11/05/00 at 12:44 AM, "Richard W. Schauer" said: >OK, that's normal. That's the control supply humming. The whole >computer is full of ferroresonant transformers. Cool. So not entirely dead... >There are no door interlocks. Also, the door latches may seem impossible >to open unless you got the tool, or know how to open them >without. Assuming you didn't get the tool, here's how: >1. Get a *large* paper clip and bend it to form an S. >2. Stick the end of the clip in the hole about 1/2 inch. >3. Move the clip to the left or right, so that the end inside the door I used a household hammer to flatten a clotheshanger into a hook to fit the narrow slits and pull the latch. Getting them is getting easier but you are right that the latch design is aweful. I looked for and did not find any interlocks for any of the four panels. One of these is covers the breaker for the ps and the swing-out twinax jack panel. The machine has two 8" hard disks mounted on thier sides with ends latitudinal. They are stacked one top of each other in a sturdy rack with some shock absorbing characteristics. >If you get the idea that the latch design on these computers is awful, >you're right :-) >A console is not required to start it, although you can shut down from >there. >The one thing that strikes me right away, partly because you haven't >mentioned it yet, is the Unit Emergency switch. It must be in the Power >Enable position. Sure have, it is the big red toggle on the left side of the machine. The hum does not change >When you press the Power button on the front panel, do you get a Power >Check light, or any light for that matter? No, sometimes I think I hear a 'tick' in there but I may be imagining things. It certainly has nothing to with pressing the power key on the face panel. I'm supposing that the panel is dependent on other things than the power supply given the ensybeentsy chicklet power-on button.... Maybe the big-red switch is tarfu. I can check it with my VOM. Should I hear anything or see anything after hitting that switch? Docs seem to say I should have a quiet machine but a live panel on which the chicklet power key resides. The key position is in the 'service' position which is documented to be the full features of the machine - no impediments - used for instance to install the OS or microcode. If this switch fails, is it possible it is at fault for the 'no lights at all' condition? It is one of those 'coke machine' keys and I'd rather not have to tap it with a drill to cycle it a few times.... I was told the machine was fresh from deinstallation and was working. I've reseated all boards (top rack had several, bottoms have covers on two empty bays). >Richard Schauer >rws@enteract.com -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From r.stek at snet.net Sun Nov 5 06:32:11 2000 From: r.stek at snet.net (Robert Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: RE; PT SOL-20 question Message-ID: As to the design of the Sol case, did you know that it "inspired" Steve Jobs' design of the Apple II case? In Michael Moritz' "The Little Kingdom" it was written: "Jobs thought the cigar boxes [housing the home-made computers] that sat on the ... desk tops during Homebrew meetings were as elegant as fly traps. The angular, blue and black sheet-metal case that housed Processor Technology's Sol struck him as clumsy and industrial ... Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sun Nov 5 09:02:48 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Lisa mystery switch Message-ID: <36733793@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> --- Seth wrote: On Sat, Nov 04, 2000 at 02:09:27PM -0500, Marion Bates wrote: > Any idea about the Mystery Switch? This is the "Magic / More Magic" switch. Leave the switch in the "More Magic" position. --- end of quote --- LOL. It did remind me of that story. :) If there's anyone on this list who doesn't know that tale, ask for a retelling. It's good. -- MB From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sun Nov 5 09:06:58 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Lisa mystery switch Message-ID: <36733841@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> --- Jeff Hellige wrote: The switch sounds like an adapter I've seen up on eBay a couple of times that supposedly allowed you to switch between the standard screen ratio (90 x 60 dpi) and the modified Mac XL screen ratio (72 x 72 dpi). --- end of quote --- This sounded very likely, however I flipped it back and forth while the machine was booted and nothing noticeable happened. Hmmm. -- MB From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Sun Nov 5 09:11:09 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Lisa mystery switch Message-ID: <36733884@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> --- THETechnoid@home.com wrote a whole bunch of wiseass remarks such as: Maybe if you hold down the keys: RSHIFT+Leftshift+CTRL-YPBQZXHRT+SPACE while switch in back whilst holding these keys. I've tried, it is possible. You will have to put the system unit on the floor so you can operate the power and toggle switches with your big toe or use your nose. The ends of the wires connected to the switch are twisted together and taped to the side of the case with a note saying "gotcha". One wire only is attached to Rom disable pin. --- end of quote --- Giggle. You seem to be very familiar with this device. Thanks for the info. ;) -- MB From marvin at rain.org Sun Nov 5 09:45:15 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: Lisa mystery switch References: <36733793@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <3A05808B.59D794BD@rain.org> > This is the "Magic / More Magic" switch. Leave the switch in the > "More Magic" position. > --- end of quote --- > > LOL. It did remind me of that story. :) > > If there's anyone on this list who doesn't know that tale, ask for a retelling. It's good. Okay, not having heard it, I'll ask for a retelling. From enrico.badella at softstar.it Sun Nov 5 10:03:23 2000 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:36 2005 Subject: RS6000 memory boards References: <20001019084349.12830.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3A0584CB.99C5F46C@softstar.it> Hi, Yesterday I saved two IBM RS6000 server; one 7013/59H and one 7013/530H. Unfortunately both have no ram boards, but each of them as 3 SCSI controllers. Obviously the memory board from my 320H won't fit in the slots. Does any body have a pair of memory board for these systems and is willing to trade them with a pair of SCSI controllers? Even with minimum RAM. Or should I just junk the whole things and just save the four SCSI disks? TIA e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From elecdata at kcinter.net Sun Nov 5 10:10:10 2000 From: elecdata at kcinter.net (bill claussen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:37 2005 Subject: Lisa mystery switch References: <36733793@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> <3A05808B.59D794BD@rain.org> Message-ID: <3A058661.D76B6B29@kcinter.net> Good Morning Marvin! Bill Marvin wrote: > > This is the "Magic / More Magic" switch. Leave the switch in the > > "More Magic" position. > > --- end of quote --- > > > > LOL. It did remind me of that story. :) > > > > If there's anyone on this list who doesn't know that tale, ask for a retelling. It's good. > > Okay, not having heard it, I'll ask for a retelling. From ernestls at home.com Sun Nov 5 10:21:50 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:37 2005 Subject: UK/US power question In-Reply-To: <3A05808B.59D794BD@rain.org> Message-ID: I have an Acorn BBC Master Compact computer that uses UK power (220 volt?) At my office, the AS/400's are running on 220 volt, so I was thinking about setting up my Compact in the server room, by plugging it into the AS400 UPS (if I can find an adapter plug.) Is there any reason why this would be a bad idea, aside from the fact that having a vintage computer at my desk might be a little distracting -do I want to release those print jobs, or keep playing Elite? Thanks. Ernest From gregorym at cadvision.com Sun Nov 5 10:40:22 2000 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:37 2005 Subject: Lisa mystery switch References: <36733793@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> <3A05808B.59D794BD@rain.org> Message-ID: <01c101c04747$17d10bc0$0100a8c0@hal90002> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin" To: Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 8:45 AM Subject: Re: Lisa mystery switch > > This is the "Magic / More Magic" switch. Leave the switch in the > > "More Magic" position. > > --- end of quote --- > > > > If there's anyone on this list who doesn't know that tale, ask for a retelling. It's good. > > Okay, not having heard it, I'll ask for a retelling. > Rather than post the story, here's a link to the Jargon File entry, also found in The New Hacker's Dictionary (which should be required reading for list members): http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/A-Story-About-Magic.html Enjoy! Mark From marvin at rain.org Sun Nov 5 11:01:16 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:37 2005 Subject: Lisa mystery switch References: <36733793@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> <3A05808B.59D794BD@rain.org> <01c101c04747$17d10bc0$0100a8c0@hal90002> Message-ID: <3A05925C.CD343F3F@rain.org> Mark Gregory wrote: > > Rather than post the story, here's a link to the Jargon File entry, also > found in The New Hacker's Dictionary (which should be required reading for > list members): > > http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/A-Story-About-Magic.html Thanks much; I hadn't looked at the Jargon files and I agree they should be required reading! From marvin at rain.org Sun Nov 5 11:03:14 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:37 2005 Subject: Lisa mystery switch References: <36733793@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> <3A05808B.59D794BD@rain.org> <3A058661.D76B6B29@kcinter.net> Message-ID: <3A0592D2.71407FAF@rain.org> bill claussen wrote: > > Good Morning Marvin! Good morning to you too! I see you got subscribed to this list okay and as you have probably already seen, there is a LOT of knowledge available in its members. Welcome to the list!!! From marvin at rain.org Sun Nov 5 11:15:51 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:37 2005 Subject: Golds - INTEL 8008 MCS-8 MICROCOMPUTER SET MANUAL References: <36733793@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> <3A05808B.59D794BD@rain.org> <3A058661.D76B6B29@kcinter.net> Message-ID: <3A0595C7.D9E61217@rain.org> I don't know how many here check out the auctions at Golds, but here is an Intel 8008 MCS-8 Microcomputer manual for sale with a starting bid of $45.00. It has 5+ days left on the auction at this point. http://www.goldsauction.com/ItemView.html?ItemID=624951 On a related topic, some people have expressed a distaste for putting items up for sale on Ebay. Gold's could be an excellent venue for this group for a number of reasons. 1) The interface is very similar to Ebay and thus is probably easy to use for most people. 2) It does not get anywhere near the traffic on Ebay and thus would be a better place for listmembers to get a reasonable price in an auction format that could mostly be listmembers. 3) From my standpoint, Golds is not so big they feel the need to provide the myriad of regulations and controls present on Ebay. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 5 10:50:07 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:37 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX II BA123? Message-ID: <000001c0474e$6a7f6950$7a759a8d@ajp166> >Allison wrote: >> None did. From MVII on the term became just Microvax despite going >> from MVIII, Nvax, NVAX-5 and other varients of the VAX on a chip. >> if You wanted a MicrovaxIII cpu in a new box you bought a Microvax3x00 >> (3200, 3400). > >Bzzt! I've *personally* seen a BA123 MicroVAX II get upgraded to >a MicroVAX III complete with a new nameplate with that name. It did >NOT just say "MicroVAX". Dammit, I was talking about new build. I know about the upgrades. >Maybe some did not, but it's flat-out incorrect to say that there were >not machines with official "MicroVAX III" nameplates. Ok, go to the old catalogs and try and buy a MicrovaxIII system as new build. The upgrade programs was a Field Circus project, successful but often off the usual track. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 5 10:51:17 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:37 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX II BA123? Message-ID: <000301c0474e$6ece9f30$7a759a8d@ajp166> >I've the BA23 Name plate that says MicroVAX III its pretty cool >--Chuck Then it was an upgrade. My MVIII comments was ment to be reserved for new built systems. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 5 11:29:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:37 2005 Subject: UK/US power question In-Reply-To: from "Ernest" at Nov 5, 0 08:21:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1390 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001105/8181a9f6/attachment.ksh From r.stek at snet.net Sun Nov 5 12:41:50 2000 From: r.stek at snet.net (Robert Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:37 2005 Subject: "Basics of Analog Computers" book Message-ID: During the recent flame war, I was reminded that I have a hardcover book, "Basics of Analog Computers" by T. D. Truit and A.E. Rogers, 1960, Rider Publishers, in exeptional condition with dust cover. Although it would go for hundreds of dollars on eBay (I wish!) I thought I would offer it here in hopes of ingratiating myself to some fellow list member for a favor as yet to be determined. (BTW, there is a punched card in it used as a bookmark that would fetch $10-$20 alone on eBay ). So, here's the deal - I will send the book for shipping costs to the best 37-words-or-less reason for why you want / deserve / would-kill-for this classic, antique, vintage, pre-Altair, pre-S-100, pre-Intel, pre-historic tome on analog computers, beautifully illustrated (seriously) with pen-and-ink drawings on about every other page. Submit your entries to the list by midnight November 10, 2000. Decision of the judge is final. All entries become the property of everyone else. Contestants must be 18 months or older. Offer not valid in Minot, N.D. or to relatives or employees therein. Allow 8 weeks for delivery. Notary sojac. Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From badger at vbe.com Sun Nov 5 14:44:15 2000 From: badger at vbe.com (Michael Melland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:37 2005 Subject: RG-71/U 90 Ohm Cables.... can anyone use 'em Message-ID: <004701c04769$29c52ce0$35824d40@0019896170> I came upon a supply of brand new Consolidated RG-71/U 90 Ohm coaxial jumper cables. They are 3 feet long and are terminated with a Kings PL-259 on one end and a Kings BNC on the other. I don't know what they were intended for .... although the connectors are very common RF items 90 Ohm impedance isn't. Someone told me that RG-71/U might have been used in the computer industry....... I don't know ???... but they are high quality factory cables. I'm not sure but I think they were used with some type of scientific equipment or sensor ???? If you can use these cables let me know ...... reimburse my shipping costs and you can have them. Mailing should be between $3.20 and $6.00......... Regards, Mike Melland From elecdata at kcinter.net Sun Nov 5 15:02:13 2000 From: elecdata at kcinter.net (bill claussen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:37 2005 Subject: Lisa mystery switch References: <36733793@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> <3A05808B.59D794BD@rain.org> <3A058661.D76B6B29@kcinter.net> <3A0592D2.71407FAF@rain.org> Message-ID: <3A05CAD5.1C4EFC6A@kcinter.net> Marvin ~~ Thanks! Yup, I've been reading for a while the archives, My lack of knowledge is only over shadowed by my Awe of the folks knowledge! I can only hope to add to the knowledge base. Now I've got to get the rest of the outside work done before it rains! Bill Marvin wrote: > bill claussen wrote: > > > > Good Morning Marvin! > > Good morning to you too! I see you got subscribed to this list okay and as > you have probably already seen, there is a LOT of knowledge available in its > members. Welcome to the list!!! From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 5 15:09:21 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:37 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX II BA123? In-Reply-To: <000001c0474e$6a7f6950$7a759a8d@ajp166> References: <000001c0474e$6a7f6950$7a759a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20001105210921.23929.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Although it appears that DEC did not sell a MicroVAX III as a new > product, they offered a MicroVAX II to MicroVAX III upgrade that > icluded the KA650, MS650, and a new nameplate. Allison wrote: > Yes and the 3200, 3400 and 3600 seris VAXes had what cpus? > > Hint the KA650 was not a upgrade only cpu, it happens that it's Qbus > and fits in any BAxx3 box. I wrote: > And those don't say "MicroVAX III" on them anywhere, now do they? Allison wrote: > None did. From MVII on the term became just Microvax despite going > from MVIII, Nvax, NVAX-5 and other varients of the VAX on a chip. > if You wanted a MicrovaxIII cpu in a new box you bought a Microvax3x00 > (3200, 3400). I wrote: > Bzzt! I've *personally* seen a BA123 MicroVAX II get upgraded to > a MicroVAX III complete with a new nameplate with that name. It did > NOT just say "MicroVAX". Allison wrote: > Dammit, I was talking about new build. I know about the upgrades. > Ok, go to the old catalogs and try and buy a MicrovaxIII system as new > build. Look back to the top of this message to see how the thread started. Big hint: I *never* claimed that they offered it as no build. In fact, I specifically said that I thought they did NOT. That's why I haven't been able to figure out why you've been set on "correcting" me. Can we move on to something else now? From ernestls at home.com Sun Nov 5 15:18:29 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:37 2005 Subject: UK/US power question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >My view is that running UK stuff off a US 220V supply is OK for testing, >but I'd not run it like that permanently. >Are you sure the Master Compact can't be converted for 110V mains. I >don't have that machine, but other models of BBC and Master have PSUs >that can be converted by a link on the PSU PCB which, as usual, converts >the input stage between a bridge rectifier and a voltage doubler. >-tony No, I wasn't aware that they could be converted. Is that something that I could do myself, or have done by an electrician? Does that apply to the Cub monitor and cassette player as well? Also, can the power cord be switched? Ernest From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Nov 5 15:32:29 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:37 2005 Subject: RS6000 memory boards In-Reply-To: <3A0584CB.99C5F46C@softstar.it> from Enrico Badella at "Nov 5, 0 05:03:23 pm" Message-ID: <200011052132.NAA14402@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Yesterday I saved two IBM RS6000 server; one 7013/59H and one 7013/530H. > Unfortunately both have no ram boards, but each of them as 3 SCSI controllers. > Obviously the memory board from my 320H won't fit in the slots. > > Does any body have a pair of memory board for these systems and is > willing to trade them with a pair of SCSI controllers? Even with minimum > RAM. > > Or should I just junk the whole things and just save the four SCSI disks? That's what I would do. The old RS6K servers are quite tough to find support for and even more difficult to upgrade, but if you find a PPC "RS6K" server, I would put some effort into that. stockholm, this box, is a PPC 604e (although it's an Apple server, not an IBM box) running AIX 4.1.4 and I like it a lot. Very snappy performance. Keep the disks for something that can really use 'em. However, if you still want to take a whack at it, sometimes people are selling equipment on comp.unix.aix. The prices can be quite confiscatory, though. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- TRUE HEADLINE: Include Your Children When Baking Cookies ------------------- From bills at adrenaline.com Sun Nov 5 15:49:33 2000 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:37 2005 Subject: RG-71/U 90 Ohm Cables.... can anyone use 'em In-Reply-To: <004701c04769$29c52ce0$35824d40@0019896170> Message-ID: > Someone told me that RG-71/U might have been used in the computer > industry....... Was that Arc-net (DataPoint)? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 5 16:03:33 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:37 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX II BA123? Message-ID: <003a01c04774$91694e70$7a759a8d@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith Look back to the top of this message to see how the thread started. >Big hint: I *never* claimed that they offered it as no build. In fact, >I specifically said that I thought they did NOT. That's why I haven't >been able to figure out why you've been set on "correcting" me. Thread drift and someone elses comment in there that was not quoted. >Can we move on to something else now? Why? ;) Allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Nov 5 16:36:47 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Vax 8350 offered to me -- worth getting it? Message-ID: <20001105223647.79491.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gene Buckle wrote: > > I am being offered this computer. > > I used to have an 8250. The 8350 is (TMK) a dual CPU 8250. Right. I have an 8300, dual 8200 CPUs. > It's a VAXBI bus system and it's a lot of fun to play with. It will require > at least two 30A 110v circuits to run it. My 8300 is on one 30A Hubbel twist-n-loc I installed in my basement. It powers the CPU, a single RA81 and an MBA ESDI-to-SDI box (2.1Gb). I always power on the RA81 *first*, then let it settle, before firing up the other boxes (due to the surge current of the RA81 HDA). Fun little box. Watch out for the KDB50 - I never met one that wasn't finiky. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 5 16:48:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: UK/US power question In-Reply-To: from "Ernest" at Nov 5, 0 01:18:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1973 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001105/b83c6b18/attachment.ksh From philpem at btinternet.com Sun Nov 5 17:18:51 2000 From: philpem at btinternet.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: KIM-1, SYM-1 or AIM-65 - anyone selling? Message-ID: <3A05EADB.E6FA3975@btinternet.com> Hi, I'm interested in getting a MOS Technologies KIM-1, Synertek SYM-1 or a Rockwell AIM-65. Has anyone got one for sale (preferably in the UK)? Thanks. -- Phil. philpem@bigfoot.com http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ From whdawson at mlynk.com Sun Nov 5 17:25:46 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Lisa mystery switch In-Reply-To: <3A0592D2.71407FAF@rain.org> Message-ID: <000201c0477f$b97d7700$b99e72d1@cobweb.net> -> bill claussen wrote: -> > -> > Good Morning Marvin! -> -> Good morning to you too! I see you got subscribed to this -> list okay and as -> you have probably already seen, there is a LOT of knowledge -> available in its -> members. Welcome to the list!!! Hello, too, Bill, I see you finally made it. A double welcome. Bill From whdawson at mlynk.com Sun Nov 5 17:31:31 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Golds - INTEL 8008 MCS-8 MICROCOMPUTER SET MANUAL In-Reply-To: <3A0595C7.D9E61217@rain.org> Message-ID: <000301c04780$87159b20$b99e72d1@cobweb.net> -> I don't know how many here check out the auctions at Golds, but here is an -> Intel 8008 MCS-8 Microcomputer manual for sale with a starting bid of -> $45.00. It has 5+ days left on the auction at this point. -> -> http://www.goldsauction.com/ItemView.html?ItemID=624951 -> -> On a related topic, some people have expressed a distaste for putting items -> up for sale on Ebay. Gold's could be an excellent venue for this group for a -> number of reasons. -> -> 1) The interface is very similar to Ebay and thus is probably easy to use -> for most people. -> -> 2) It does not get anywhere near the traffic on Ebay and thus would be a -> better place for listmembers to get a reasonable price in an auction format -> that could mostly be listmembers. -> -> 3) From my standpoint, Golds is not so big they feel the need to provide the -> myriad of regulations and controls present on Ebay. I've gotten many good deals on Gold's for manuals and books, thanks to elecdata1 who is now a list member. I've had very good experience on this site. They will also "convert" your eBay feedback. It may take a little while, but there is a page on Gold's to request this action. Bill From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Nov 5 17:44:07 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: DEC wishlist (Looking for) Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001105153456.021639f0@208.226.86.10> I'm on the lookout for a couple of VAX items: VAX 4000/90 (preferred) or a VAX 4000/60 KA68x or a KA69x CPU to round out the "house of VAX" I've got a couple of VAXes I could trade if someone was looking to round out their VAX collection: MicroVAX II (BA23 or BA123 cabinet) VAXStation 3100/M76 in a BA42 type cabinet Various vaxish Q-bus boards. PDP-11/03 board set. (KDF11, DRJ11, etc) I'm always interested in things for PDP-8's, but high on my wishlist are the cable for an RK8E to the RK05, a couple of RK05 packs (one with OS/8 on it would be dandy :-) and those pesky top connectors that connect core stacks, CPUs, etc. In the PDP-11 space anything to add mass storage to my PDP-11/34 like an RK11-D or RL11 interface. Also available for trading: a CompuPro Z80 CPU (S100) manual and perhaps the "Inside CP/M" and Garetz S-100 bus books ae well. --Chuck From whdawson at mlynk.com Sun Nov 5 18:48:54 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: A couple of Bondwell 2 questions Message-ID: <000401c0478b$56bb0fe0$b99e72d1@cobweb.net> I bought this CP/M laptop on eBay a couple of weeks ago for $9.99, with another $13.70 for shipping and handling. The laptop is in great condition, as described, well packed, and arrived intact. The batteries are even OK and hold a decent charge. I've done this eBay thing long enough to be able to read between the lines and was fairly certain that it would not boot from the disk drive. If it was able to, it would have said so in the listing. Sometimes what is not said is as important as what is said. It is now running great. I found two problems, the first caused the second. The power connector for the floppy drive was on backwards. What this means is that the +12 volt and +5 volt power lines were swapped. The +5 applied to the +12 circuitry won't usually cause any damage, but the +12 on the +5 will and did. The floppy was unable to seek because there was no power to the head stepper motor because there was no power to the stepper motor controller IC. Q1 ( I think it is a small SCR, since its three legs are marked S, G and D) which switches/regulates power to the stepper IC seems inop. When I short the S and G leads, the controller IC gets +5V, the stepper motor works and the floppy drive functions. The Bondwell now will boot, format and copy disks. The only markings on Q1, TO-92'ish, are A854 (date code or 2SA854?) and S G D. I think this device is in the circuit to save power; perhaps when the floppy is not selected, the head stepper is left to float free. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. The floppy is an early 720K DSDD (even though the Bondwell is only SSDD) Epson SMD-180B. Question #1. Does anyone have schematics for this drive? Also, I tried to build a custom disk definition for the Bondwell 2 for 22disk v1.44. I used Anadisk to evaluate the Bondwell floppy format, and it says the floppies are single-sided, 18 sector, 256 byte sector size, and the interleave is 2 to 1, i.e. 0,9,1,10,2,11,etc. I made one freshly formatted floppy on the Bondwell and only put dump.asm and dump.com on it (I also sysgenned it and made it bootable). Using Anadisk, I can see the directory, and the 2-1 skew that Anadisk reports allows me to read dump.asm in its correct order. However, the disk definition that I built for 22disk doesn't work. I can read the directory and I can copy the files to DOS, but they appear as if the interleave is incorrect, since dump.asm is jumbled on 256 byte boundaries. The entire file _is_ present. I didn't have any more time last night to check and see just _how_ it is jumbled. Question #2. Does anyone have the disk definition for 22disk for the Bondwell 2? Bill From claudew at sprint.ca Sun Nov 5 19:39:28 2000 From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: A couple of Bondwell 2 questions References: <000401c0478b$56bb0fe0$b99e72d1@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <3A060BD0.732736CA@sprint.ca> Bill Dawson wrote: > disks. The only markings on Q1, TO-92'ish, are A854 (date code or > 2SA854?) and S G D. I think this device is in the circuit to save Quickly I would say its a 2sa854 very common but S,G,D should be for Source, Drain, Gate for FET transistors...could be a fet with that number... I checked my ECG cross-ref, A854 comes up as ECG 290 a simple PNP but with SGD on it, I would be tempted to say its a FET... Did you check it with an ohmeter? Claude From jpl15 at panix.com Sun Nov 5 19:36:27 2000 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: A couple of Bondwell 2 questions In-Reply-To: <000401c0478b$56bb0fe0$b99e72d1@cobweb.net> Message-ID: Perhaps half an answer: "2SA854" is a typical Japanese semiconductor part number... there are several cross-indices available, as well as (I am sure) many folk here who can supply it or cross it for you. I imagine it is an FET (Field Effect Transistor), since I think S,G,D would be Source, Gate, and Drain; shorting like you did would in fact make it conduct. Cheers John From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Nov 5 20:27:57 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Vax 8350 offered to me -- worth getting it? In-Reply-To: <20001105223647.79491.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > My 8300 is on one 30A Hubbel twist-n-loc I installed in my basement. It > powers the CPU, a single RA81 and an MBA ESDI-to-SDI box (2.1Gb). I always > power on the RA81 *first*, then let it settle, before firing up the other > boxes (due to the surge current of the RA81 HDA). > I ended up having two new 30A breakers installed just to be able to turn it on. :) It had a TU81+ tape and four RA81 drives. I miss that monster - even though it was a nightmare moving it upstairs. :) > Fun little box. Watch out for the KDB50 - I never met one that wasn't > finiky. I don't recall ever having any problems with my KDB50, but the DEBNA(?) board would quietly cease to operate when the room temperature hit about 70* farenheit. g. From rws at enteract.com Sun Nov 5 20:41:52 2000 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: A couple of Bondwell 2 questions In-Reply-To: <3A060BD0.732736CA@sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Claude wrote: > Bill Dawson wrote: > > disks. The only markings on Q1, TO-92'ish, are A854 (date code or > > 2SA854?) and S G D. I think this device is in the circuit to save > Quickly I would say its a 2sa854 very common but S,G,D should be for > Source, Drain, Gate for FET transistors...could be a fet with that > number... I use this part at work all the time. It is a 2SA854, simple bipolar PNP, I(c) of 500 mA maximum, just a general-purpose transistor. The SGD on the bottom is probably a lot/date code. The leads are, facing the side with the markings on it, emitter/collector/base. This is why shorting the first two makes it work. Make sure you have proper signal at the base, then replace if necessary; a 2N3906 will sub but has a different pinout and (I think) not quite the same I(c) rating. There is a spec sheet at the Rohm website. Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sun Nov 5 20:52:00 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: DEC wishlist (Looking for) In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001105153456.021639f0@208.226.86.10> "from Chuck McManis at Nov 5, 2000 03:44:07 pm" Message-ID: <200011060252.UAA19699@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > I'm always interested in things for PDP-8's, but high on my wishlist are > the cable for an RK8E to the RK05, a couple of RK05 packs (one with OS/8 on > it would be dandy :-) and those pesky top connectors that connect core > stacks, CPUs, etc. > This paragraph is pretty much what i'm looking for as well. I figure i'll just have to make a RK8E to RK05 cable, so if someone has a good detailed description I could use to make it, that would be very helpful. Fortunately all the necessary parts are readily available for purchase. My PDP 8/l is of course extremely limited in its expandability, so I could really use a 8/L expansion box with core. If someone has a small omnibus 8 (8/f, 8/m) they would consider trading, I would also be quite interested. -Lawrence LeMay From rws at enteract.com Sun Nov 5 21:15:38 2000 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: System/36 still sleepin' Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <20001105065145.LCAB2410.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > The machine has two 8" hard disks mounted on thier sides with ends > latitudinal. They are stacked one top of each other in a sturdy rack with > some shock absorbing characteristics. 8"? Measure again, I think they're 14". BTW pay attention to the little diagram showing which way to point your thumb when you flip the latch holding the drives in (they swing out if you hadn't noticed), or else it'll bite. > Sure have, it is the big red toggle on the left side of the machine. The > hum does not change Flipping the Unit Emergency switch won't start the machine nor make a difference in the buzz. It only enables the power. > No, sometimes I think I hear a 'tick' in there but I may be imagining > things. It certainly has nothing to with pressing the power key on the > face panel. I'm supposing that the panel is dependent on other things > than the power supply given the ensybeentsy chicklet power-on button.... You're probably hearing the control transformer expanding and crackling (!) It's normal; they're all ferroresonant, meaning they operate saturated-core and get hot. The power that goes through these transformers gets rectified and filtered, but does not go through any regulator stages- the transformer regulates. It uses the AC frequency and the core saturation level as constants to maintain a regulated AC voltage on the secondary. There is a very high voltage (550 VAC) secondary winding with a (physically) large capacitor across it; don't disturb it, it's necessary for the regulation. The control logic is what's going to turn on the main power when you press the power button. Should it come to it, there is a way to second-guess that logic and force the power on. > Maybe the big-red switch is tarfu. I can check it with my VOM. Should I > hear anything or see anything after hitting that switch? Docs seem to say > I should have a quiet machine but a live panel on which the chicklet power > key resides. That's right. If the switch is off, you will get a Power Check light when you press the power button. If it's on, the power will come on (it's supposed to, anyway). > If this switch fails, is it possible it is at fault for the 'no lights at > all' condition? It is one of those 'coke machine' keys and I'd rather not > have to tap it with a drill to cycle it a few times.... No. It will (I think) default to the Normal position. I haven't looked into my System/36 in a while, but I can if you get stuck. Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From whdawson at mlynk.com Sun Nov 5 21:43:34 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: A couple of Bondwell 2 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c047a3$bd6f4040$539e72d1@cobweb.net> -> On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Claude wrote: -> -> > Bill Dawson wrote: -> > > disks. The only markings on Q1, TO-92'ish, are A854 (date code or -> > > 2SA854?) and S G D. I think this device is in the circuit to save -> -> > Quickly I would say its a 2sa854 very common but S,G,D should be for -> > Source, Drain, Gate for FET transistors...could be a fet with that -> > number... Yes, FET, not SCR. I know what S, G and D stand for. Lack of sleep contributes to mistakes. -> -> I use this part at work all the time. It is a 2SA854, simple bipolar PNP, -> I(c) of 500 mA maximum, just a general-purpose transistor. The SGD on the -> bottom is probably a lot/date code. Well, the leads are not evenly spaced. The S and G leads are closer together than the G and D leads, and the S, G and D markings are exactly over each lead. -> The leads are, facing the side with -> the markings on it, emitter/collector/base. This is why shorting the -> first two makes it work. -> -> Make sure you have proper signal at the base, then replace if necessary; a -> 2N3906 will sub but has a different pinout and (I think) not quite the -> same I(c) rating. There is a spec sheet at the Rohm website. I guess I may have to draw up a schematic of the circuit to figure out what's going on, if no one has it. I didn't write down the part number of the stepper motor driver, but I think it needs more current than a small signal transistor can pass. Bill -> -> Richard Schauer -> rws@enteract.com -> From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Nov 5 21:51:54 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Vax 8350 offered to me -- worth getting it? References: Message-ID: <00b601c047a4$e7f3d820$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 12:57 PM Subject: Re: Vax 8350 offered to me -- worth getting it? > > Fun little box. Watch out for the KDB50 - I never met one that wasn't > > finiky. > > I don't recall ever having any problems with my KDB50, Me either. Seems to just work. It's in a 6000-430 not an 8xxx not sure if that should make a difference. > but the DEBNA(?) > board would quietly cease to operate when the room temperature hit about > 70* farenheit. sounds like it's got a dodgy chip or possibly a dry joint. About a year ago, on a long weekend (doesn't it always happen this way?) the A/C in the main computer room here tripped out. It was 40C+ in the room on Monday morning. The 6k was still spinning away happily, with it's usual load of mail and web stuff. The 3 day old Netware box was not. <:^) DEC hardware will generally work even at extemes. If it fails at just over 70F it has a real problem and should be looked at. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From donm at cts.com Sun Nov 5 22:22:43 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: A couple of Bondwell 2 questions In-Reply-To: <000401c0478b$56bb0fe0$b99e72d1@cobweb.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Bill Dawson wrote: > I bought this CP/M laptop on eBay a couple of weeks ago for $9.99, with > another $13.70 for shipping and handling. > > The laptop is in great condition, as described, well packed, and arrived > intact. The batteries are even OK and hold a decent charge. > > I've done this eBay thing long enough to be able to read between the > lines and was fairly certain that it would not boot from the disk drive. > If it was able to, it would have said so in the listing. Sometimes what > is not said is as important as what is said. > > It is now running great. I found two problems, the first caused the > second. The power connector for the floppy drive was on backwards. > What this means is that the +12 volt and +5 volt power lines were > swapped. The +5 applied to the +12 circuitry won't usually cause any > damage, but the +12 on the +5 will and did. The floppy was unable to > seek because there was no power to the head stepper motor because there > was no power to the stepper motor controller IC. Q1 ( I think it is a > small SCR, since its three legs are marked S, G and D) which > switches/regulates power to the stepper IC seems inop. When I short the > S and G leads, the controller IC gets +5V, the stepper motor works and > the floppy drive functions. The Bondwell now will boot, format and copy > disks. The only markings on Q1, TO-92'ish, are A854 (date code or > 2SA854?) and S G D. I think this device is in the circuit to save > power; perhaps when the floppy is not selected, the head stepper is left > to float free. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. The floppy is an > early 720K DSDD (even though the Bondwell is only SSDD) Epson SMD-180B. > > Question #1. Does anyone have schematics for this drive? > > Also, I tried to build a custom disk definition for the Bondwell 2 for > 22disk v1.44. I used Anadisk to evaluate the Bondwell floppy format, > and it says the floppies are single-sided, 18 sector, 256 byte sector > size, and the interleave is 2 to 1, i.e. 0,9,1,10,2,11,etc. I made one > freshly formatted floppy on the Bondwell and only put dump.asm and > dump.com on it (I also sysgenned it and made it bootable). Using > Anadisk, I can see the directory, and the 2-1 skew that Anadisk reports > allows me to read dump.asm in its correct order. However, the disk > definition that I built for 22disk doesn't work. I can read the > directory and I can copy the files to DOS, but they appear as if the > interleave is incorrect, since dump.asm is jumbled on 256 byte > boundaries. The entire file _is_ present. I didn't have any more time > last night to check and see just _how_ it is jumbled. > > Question #2. Does anyone have the disk definition for 22disk for the > Bondwell 2? No, but I do have the disk image and I'll see if I can work up the disk definition for you. - don > Bill > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Nov 5 15:53:45 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: UK/US power question In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: UK/US power question" (Nov 5, 17:29) References: Message-ID: <10011052153.ZM15526@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 5, 17:29, Tony Duell wrote: [US 110-0-110 versus UK 220-0 snipped] > My view is that running UK stuff off a US 220V supply is OK for testing, > but I'd not run it like that permanently. I would agree. The mains switch on a Compact is only single pole. While it will normally do the job, it might provide an unpleasant surprise for someone in the future. > Are you sure the Master Compact can't be converted for 110V mains. I > don't have that machine, but other models of BBC and Master have PSUs > that can be converted by a link on the PSU PCB which, as usual, converts > the input stage between a bridge rectifier and a voltage doubler. I'm pretty sure it can; the Compact uses a standard SMPSU in the disk box. There should be a 110/220 link on it. To open it up, you need to remove the front and rear trims. These are clipped into the side trims, but also have two (or three?) bumps on top and bottom edges which fit into small slots in the metal case. They're a bit fiddly, and often very stiff the first time, but they will come off without tools. Then you can remove the side trims, and if I remember correctly, there are a few obvious screws to remove before sliding the cover off. (Caveat: it's a long time since I've taken a Compact or an Acorn Filestore (same case) apart). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From elecdata at kcinter.net Mon Nov 6 03:17:21 2000 From: elecdata at kcinter.net (bill claussen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Lisa mystery switch References: <000201c0477f$b97d7700$b99e72d1@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <3A067721.B87ECF26@kcinter.net> Good Morning Mr. Dawson! This has been an excessively busy weekend, Just woke up way too early, Thanks for the welcome! Bill Bill Dawson wrote: > -> bill claussen wrote: > -> > > -> > Good Morning Marvin! > -> > -> Good morning to you too! I see you got subscribed to this > -> list okay and as > -> you have probably already seen, there is a LOT of knowledge > -> available in its > -> members. Welcome to the list!!! > > Hello, too, Bill, I see you finally made it. A double welcome. > > Bill From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 6 03:10:19 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: The perfect description In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>'A few cards short of a full DEC' > >It doesn't get any better than that. That's the one I was trying to think of. >Well said! > - Mark Hopefully everybody keeps one or more of these files around as reference (there is a 2 file as well as the 1). 2 taco's short of a combination plate http://www.unm.edu/~rooster/text/fulldeck1.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 6 02:58:22 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: EC-1 fiasco.... In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001103113955.01a42278@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >Taking a private message and posting it to the list shows that: > >a) you have little, if any, integrity >b) you have no respect for the mailing list community >c) you don't feel you have any strength in your argument, so you bring it >to a public forum perhaps in the hopes that people will rally to your side >and support you What ever happened to, human beings make mistakes from time to time? The stupidest thing that I do is to allow my temper and general emotions to get envolved in a transaction. I screwed myself just last weekend at TRW, made a nice big box of stuff over about 45 minutes, got bent when the guy wanted $35 for my small box of misc junk and acted like I was looting his house at that price, so I put the box down and walked off for 20 minutes. Would I have been willing to pay $35 for the contents of the box? NO. Did I SERIOUSLY want at least some of the items? YES. Instead of remaining calm, I twitched and walked off. Funny how walking off can radically increase the value of the items you left behind in your mind. What I would do with a handfull of Zynx network cards beats me, but finding a complete set of stuff for a PCMCIA ISA reader (card thing, ISA card, cable, manual, etc.) I do regret leaving behind, not $35 worth of regret, but maybe a figure the person would have found agreeable. My point is that apparently several people on this list would LIKE to have one of these old computer things, but don't want to pay a fair market price for it. You have my sympathy I hate paying a fair market price for anything, and rarely come close to it, but those are often the only kind of cookies on the table, deal with it politely. From THETechnoid at home.com Mon Nov 6 09:42:46 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: DEC wishlist (Looking for) In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001105153456.021639f0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20001106153542.SDJB2410.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Ed Kirby has 16 working Vaxstation 4000/60 machines with keyboards, mice, and 19" monitors. Make a fair offer and I'll see if he will agree. The monitors are HEAVY but NICE, 19" Trinitrons.... They have 40mb ram and at least 1gig hard disks. Ed Kirby 828-274-5963 Regards, Jeff In <5.0.0.25.2.20001105153456.021639f0@208.226.86.10>, on 11/06/00 at 10:42 AM, Chuck McManis said: >I'm on the lookout for a couple of VAX items: > VAX 4000/90 (preferred) or a VAX 4000/60 > KA68x or a KA69x CPU to round out the "house of VAX" >I've got a couple of VAXes I could trade if someone was looking to round >out their VAX collection: > MicroVAX II (BA23 or BA123 cabinet) > VAXStation 3100/M76 in a BA42 type cabinet > Various vaxish Q-bus boards. > PDP-11/03 board set. (KDF11, DRJ11, etc) >I'm always interested in things for PDP-8's, but high on my wishlist are >the cable for an RK8E to the RK05, a couple of RK05 packs (one with OS/8 >on it would be dandy :-) and those pesky top connectors that connect >core stacks, CPUs, etc. >In the PDP-11 space anything to add mass storage to my PDP-11/34 like an >RK11-D or RL11 interface. >Also available for trading: a CompuPro Z80 CPU (S100) manual and perhaps > the "Inside CP/M" and Garetz S-100 bus books ae well. >--Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 6 11:15:48 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Fair Market Price (was Re: EC-1 fiasco....) In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001103113955.01a42278@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106085014.02e519e0@208.226.86.10> At 12:58 AM 11/6/00 -0800, Mike wrote: >My point is that apparently several people on this list would LIKE to have >one of these old computer things, but don't want to pay a fair market price >for it. You have my sympathy I hate paying a fair market price for >anything, and rarely come close to it, but those are often the only kind of >cookies on the table, deal with it politely. And other message took me to task for some "low ball" bid. But both Mike and Craig have expressed a misunderstanding that is important for people to avoid. The Market Price (MP) is defined between the set of all buyers for a product and the seller of the product. The "Worth" of something is defined by a successful transaction. When someone offers something for sale anywhere, whether it is on this list, at a garage sale, or at the supermarket, they can either "pre-price" it or simply ask for offers. No matter what prices are offered they are "fair" in the sense that this is what the buyer is willing to pay for the product. They may not be accepted by the seller, in which case there is no market and thus no determination of worth. Sellers have something that they think is "worth" $X Buyers see something that they this is "worth" $Y What are these people really thinking? That they would participate in a transaction where the price was acceptable to them. Now of course anything under $Y is acceptable to the buyer and anything over $X is acceptable to the seller, so if you graph it, it could be something like: Price -> Seller ............$X******************* Buyer ************$Y................ ^ +-- Sales price Price -> Seller ..............$X**************** Buyer ***********$Y................... ^ +-- No Sale is possible Price -> Seller ..........$X*************************** Buyer ***********************$Y.............. ^ +-- Mucho haggling is possible This is just an expression of price elasticity done in a slightly different way. Now one could make the argument that the "Fair" price, if a sale was possible, was one that right at the center between $X and $Y (assuming $X < $Y) which would give the seller a premium over their price and the buyer a discount under their price that was equal, but it doesn't really work out that way. In fact the situation is more like this: Price -> Seller ..........$X*************************** Buyer1 ********$Y.............|................ Buyer2 *************$Y........|................ Buyer3 *********************$Y|................ Buyer4 ******************$Y...|................ Buyer5 ************************$Y.............. ^ +-- "Fair" price Here there are multiple buyers and the "fair" price is mathematically defined as just over the price of the next highest buyer's limit. Did Buyer1 try to "low-ball" this seller? No they just had a lower price that they were willing to pay for the product. If the buyers are finite then the next time the seller sells one of these widgets the price will be _lower_ because the "best" buyer already has one. At the next level you add multiple sellers and multiple buyers and now you're doing differential equations to figure out prices :-) --Chuck From rickb at bensene.com Mon Nov 6 11:40:31 2000 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: DataVue 25 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001103132232.00d18720@192.168.210.18> Message-ID: > I once remember seeing a little card that was used to test TV remotes. It > was treated with some substance that would fluoresce when struck with IR. > Can someone tell me where to find such an item? Seems like a good > place to > start, so I can see if it's a transmission or reception problem. > Most camcorders 'see' infrared LED's just fine. Just aim the camcorder at the IR LED, and look through the monitor viewfinder... My Sony Hi8 camcorder can see infrared LED's light up really well, I've used it a number of times to find dead LED's in remote controls. Just a thought... Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Nov 6 11:44:39 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: RS6000 memory boards Message-ID: Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 13:32:29 -0800 (PST) From: Cameron Kaiser Subject: Re: RS6000 memory boards Enrico Badella wrote: >> Yesterday I saved two IBM RS6000 server; one 7013/59H and one 7013/530H. ... >> should I just junk the whole things and just save the four SCSI disks? > Then Cameron Kaiser said: >That's what I would do. The old RS6K servers are quite tough to find support >for ... Keep the disks for something that can really use 'em. > >However, if you still want to take a whack at it, sometimes people are >selling equipment on comp.unix.aix. The prices can be quite confiscatory, >though. Whoa, there. Sitting in my office, still looking dark and forlorn, is a PowerStation 320 (Type 7012). A large part of its forlornness is due to its having had its mouse and keyboard "liberated" at some point in its life. The ugly part is it doesn't need just any PS/2 KB and 3-button mouse, but a special IBM one. (Thanks to Philip Belben for this clue. Philip, I still have not had time to seriously attack this machine.) Enrico, I don't know that I can pay to ship them from Italy to San Antonio, Texas but if your machines include those and you can't find a European stockpile to add those to, please contact me. Please *don't* junk those parts! If the machines you are talking about contain MCA Ethernet cards, the same applies to them, and again I might be interested in trying to get them shipped to Texas. Cameron, thanks for the newsgroup pointer, it's in my read list now. Anyone else with spare RS6K keyboards and mice taking up some of their valuable storage space, I think I can help you. :-) - Mark PS my last messagee appeared twice. My apologies; I can't figure out how I did that. If it happens again, somebody please send a clue? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 6 11:52:52 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Fair Market Price (was Re: EC-1 fiasco....) In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106085014.02e519e0@208.226.86.10> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001103113955.01a42278@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >At 12:58 AM 11/6/00 -0800, Mike wrote: >>My point is that apparently several people on this list would LIKE to have >>one of these old computer things, but don't want to pay a fair market price >>for it. You have my sympathy I hate paying a fair market price for >>anything, and rarely come close to it, but those are often the only kind of >>cookies on the table, deal with it politely. > >And other message took me to task for some "low ball" bid. > >But both Mike and Craig have expressed a misunderstanding that is important >for people to avoid. The Market Price (MP) is defined between the set of >all buyers for a product and the seller of the product. The "Worth" of If your going to make low ball bids, don't get embarassed by it. When "I" am buying "fair market price" doesn't mean a rodents behind to me, I offer "about" what the item is worth TO ME, with some room to negotiate. Buying and selling should be HAPPY. Getting all wound up over issues you can't control isn't healthy. I know because I do it all the time. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 6 09:56:33 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: TK50 tapes for "free" Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106095215.01ac0820@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I've got about 20 TK50 tapes that are available for no cost. The catch is that they are in Sunnyvale CA and if you can't come pick them up then you'll need to pay postage to your address. These tapes have been bulk erased and can be used in either the TK50 (95MB) or the TK70 (295MB) tape drive, the caveat is that if you initialize one on a TK50 drive, then the TK70 will read it but not write it, if you initialize it on the TK70 drive then the TK50 won't be able to read it. I refer you back to the archives to refresh your memory that magnetically the specs for CompacTape I and CompacTape II are identical. --Chuck From enrico.badella at softstar.it Mon Nov 6 12:32:29 2000 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: RS6000 memory boards References: Message-ID: <3A06F93D.1E9E09AB@softstar.it> Mark Tapley wrote: > > Whoa, there. Sitting in my office, still looking dark and forlorn, > is a PowerStation 320 (Type 7012). A large part of its forlornness is due > to its having had its mouse and keyboard "liberated" at some point in its > life. The ugly part is it doesn't need just any PS/2 KB and 3-button mouse, > but a special IBM one. (Thanks to Philip Belben With AIX 3.x you need real IBM keyboards and mice, but from 4.x you can just use some PC junk. I installed 4.2.1 on one of the 320H and it works fine. Can even run Netscape 4.72, slooooowly but it runs. If you don't use X in is not so bad. > for this clue. Philip, I still have not had > time to seriously attack this machine.) Enrico, I don't know that I can pay > to ship them from Italy to San Antonio, Texas but if your machines include > those and you can't find a European stockpile to add those to, please > contact me. Please *don't* junk those parts! Probably I'll be in SFO a the end of November so it would be cheaper to exchange some stuff. > If the machines you are talking about contain MCA Ethernet cards, > the same applies to them, and again I might be interested in trying to get > them shipped to Texas. Yeah, they are all MCA e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com Mon Nov 6 12:23:57 2000 From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: DataVue 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00110612244706.00202@Billbob_linux> Hi, > Most camcorders 'see' infrared LED's just fine. Thanks for your input, but I don't own a camcorder. I did learn, however, that PRB corp sells some type of test card. Bill Layer Sales Technician +----------------------------------+ Viking Electronics, Inc. 1531 Industrial St. Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A 715.386.8861 ext. 210 +----------------------------------+ "Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century" Powered by Slackware Linux 7.1.0 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 6 10:30:38 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Fair Market Price (was Re: EC-1 fiasco....) In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106085014.02e519e0@208.226.86.10> <5.0.0.25.2.20001103113955.01a42278@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106101944.01c7c790@208.226.86.10> At 09:52 AM 11/6/2000 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >If your going to make low ball bids, don't get embarassed by it. When "I" >am buying "fair market price" doesn't mean a rodents behind to me, I offer >"about" what the item is worth TO ME, with some room to negotiate. I'm never embarrassed by the bids I make. I find it interesting that you make the same point, but present it as argument. Your statement "When 'i' am buying 'fair market price' doesn't mean a rodents[sic] behind to me." says, if I my paraphrase, that you bid what you think a thing is worth to you. (you say as much above, I'm just restating the obvious) And when you said "$35" for that box at the ham fest you were being honest right? And the vendor got all offended but you weren't trying to "low ball" him were you? You had simply said what it was worth to you right? >Buying and selling should be HAPPY. Getting all wound up over issues you >can't control isn't healthy. I know because I do it all the time. I totally agree with this sentiment. And as you and I both have recent experience with, even when you're going through life being happy and honest, other people sometimes get really bent out of shape and do or say impolite things. I guess the trick is learning how to ignore the affront caused by that feeling of being unjustly criticized. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 6 12:59:00 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: RS6000 memory boards In-Reply-To: <3A06F93D.1E9E09AB@softstar.it> References: Message-ID: Enrico Badella wrote: >With AIX 3.x you need real IBM keyboards and mice, but from 4.x you can just >use some PC junk. I installed 4.2.1 on one of the 320H and it works fine. >Can even run Netscape 4.72, slooooowly but it runs. If you don't use X in >is not so bad. Ouch! I've still got a RS/6000 390 on my desk at work because I refuse to move to NT. Trust me, run Netscape 3.03, a lot of sites can't handle it, but the old RS6k's can't handle Nescrape 4! Save 4 for the pages 3 can't handle! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 6 12:51:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: A couple of Bondwell 2 questions In-Reply-To: <000401c0478b$56bb0fe0$b99e72d1@cobweb.net> from "Bill Dawson" at Nov 5, 0 07:48:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5991 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001106/22d3b0e3/attachment.ksh From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Nov 6 13:06:09 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: TK50 tapes for "free" In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106095215.01ac0820@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106095215.01ac0820@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: >I've got about 20 TK50 tapes that are available for no cost. The >catch is that they are in Sunnyvale CA and if you can't come pick >them up then you'll need to pay postage to your address. These tapes >have been bulk erased and can be used in either the TK50 (95MB) or >the TK70 (295MB) tape drive, the caveat is that if you initialize >one on a TK50 drive, then the TK70 will read it but not write it, if >you initialize it on the TK70 drive then the TK50 won't be able to >read it. I refer you back to the archives to refresh your memory >that magnetically the specs for CompacTape I and CompacTape II are >identical. > >--Chuck What would shipping cost to the chicago area (zip 60190)? thanks. -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Nov 6 13:16:53 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Fair Market Price (was Re: EC-1 fiasco....) In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106085014.02e519e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <001501c04826$1ff263f0$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com> Don't mean to be rude, but I am really not trying to follow this thread. Here is my philosophy on eBay and the list. The list is composed of 50% of people I would call friends, the rest are some businesspeople, but far from the remaining 50%. For friends I do not collect profit. I have made a few purchases from the list that were obviously not for profit (either party) so the whole idea of trying to get rich off the list would offend me. eBay is a free-for-all wild profit machine. To sell Everything to ebay and offer nothing to the list that gives you free information on just about everything would not be fair. It would be like a reverse Robin Hood. BTW I have offered Nothing for sale on eBay up to now. John A. From THETechnoid at home.com Mon Nov 6 14:42:44 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: System/36 still sleepin' Suggestions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001106203518.CPDU2410.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> In , on 11/06/00 at 03:42 PM, "Richard W. Schauer" said: >The control logic is what's going to turn on the main power when you >press the power button. Should it come to it, there is a way to >second-guess that logic and force the power on. What might that be? >That's right. If the switch is off, you will get a Power Check light >when you press the power button. If it's on, the power will come on >(it's supposed to, anyway). I get no lights at all with any switch in any position. >> If this switch fails, is it possible it is at fault for the 'no lights at >> all' condition? It is one of those 'coke machine' keys and I'd rather not >> have to tap it with a drill to cycle it a few times.... >No. It will (I think) default to the Normal position. I haven't looked >into my System/36 in a while, but I can if you get stuck. I'm stuck. Thanks man, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Nov 6 15:20:25 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Totaly OT: IBM eServer z900 Message-ID: <3A072EA9.7989.1F0879E3@localhost> Just recently IBM anounced their new series of (real) mainframes. now called zServer(running zOS and zWhatever). They are supposed to be the follow up architecture of the /390 ISA and will add 64 Bit Software to the /390 world ... And here comes my problem: I can't imagine any way to enhance the /370 (/390) ISA to do such tricks at all without loosing compatibility. It would require a complete new 'mode', almost like Intel had with 16 vs 32 Bit on the 80386, Mode switching an tons of incompatibilities - it took almost 20 years to move the mainframe world from 24 to 31 Bit addressing (and 24 Bit mode is still required for some apps and modules) - and we are talking just about the valid bits of an address word (allwas 32 Bit since the 60s) - introducing new operations and data formats (or at least the usage of known but rarely supported double word size registers) is quite a different task. So what I'm searchin are informations about the new ISA. Any info is apreciated. And yes, I tried to ask IBM, (last attempt today in persona at their 'booth' at the SYSTEMS) but there is no info available. I know this is off topic, since the z900 isn't even for sale by now, but getting information is not only hard becaus IBM doen't offer it, but because the people who know what a /370 ISA is are vanishing .... so any help is apreciated. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ip500 at home.com Mon Nov 6 15:41:43 2000 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics Message-ID: <3A072597.1D7C919C@home.com> Sold a pair of old Jensen speakers to a guy in Korea the other day and am shipping them via DHL Worldwide. They have refused to accept the items until I come up with a "gauss reading" for the magnetic field???? Anyone ever heard of such a thing? I did a fair bit of research and found their maximum allowable reading is ".00525" but no one at DHL has a clue what that means. I'm assuming it is a measurement in gauss at some prescribed distance from the package. On average the strength of most high powered speaker magnets is in the range of 10,000 to 15,000 gauss, but that is measured at the voice coil [in the center of the field]. The field would decrease [as the square or maybe even the cube] of the distance. Stumped, Craig From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Nov 6 15:01:40 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Update:RE: FS Heathkit EC-1 In-Reply-To: References: <3A030184.27143.EB82284@localhost> Message-ID: <3A072A44.12486.1EF74E42@localhost> > On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > > Don't forget to mention that it's a late 'compact' model. > > The shown unit has been build from the mid 60s until 1971. > It looks the same as the EC-1 models built since 1959. What's the diff? > Or are you thinking of the larger ES-400? I have to apologize, yes I mixed them up. Please ignore that message. Ciao H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Mon Nov 6 15:33:14 2000 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Keyboard/Mouse substitute? Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E97@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> I happened across a Lisa 2 (Model A6SB100) this past weekend...Seems to be in fair (restorable) shape. The nicads on the I/O board are corroded, but that's easy to fix. Unfortunately, the Keyboard and mouse are missing. Does anyone know if I can substitute a keyboard and mouse from an early Mac? (the ones with the non-adb keyboards and db9-connector mice). I don't mind hacking the connectors, if someone can give me the pinout info. As far as I can tell, the lisa uses some sort of mini-db9 for the mouse, and a 1/4" headphone-jack for the keyboard (weird!) If this isn't possible, I'd appreciate any hints as to where I might find a lisa keyboard/mouse (be nice now! :-) This critter also came with an Apple Profile (model A9M0005) external hard disk that seems to attach via a db-25 cable (to the lisa's parallel port?) I noticed that one of the pins on the lisa's parallel port connector(db-25 female)is blocked with epoxy (probably to prevent people from connecting a serial cable to it). Can I simply use a straight-through db25 cable (with the blocked pin removed) to connect the profile to the lisa, or did apple use some sort of proprietary wiring scheme? -Thanks! -al -acorda@1bigred.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 6 17:03:46 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: A couple of Bondwell 2 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony seems to have stated the answer. On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > I think you're getting confused as to the 2 types of interleave... > Physical interleave, which is what Anadisk detects, means that the > sectors are not 0,1,2,3,... order around the track. The idea is that you > can read sector 0, process it, and then when you try to read sector 1, > it's just coming under the R/W head so you don't have to wait for a full > revolution of the disk. However, each sector has the _correct_ sector > number in the header, no matter where it is on the track. > If you use the wrong value of physical interleave when formatting, > perfomance suffers (you may have to wait a full revolution between > reading sectors). But files still are read correctly because each sector > still has the right sector number in the header. Physical interleave is > _irrelevant_ for normal R/W operations -- it only matters for formatting. > Logic interleave was used by some CP/M and RT11 systems. This operates at > a higher level -- you read/write the sectors in the 'wrong' order on a > track. Suppose ypu have a sisk with no physical interleave at all -- so > the sectors in order from the index pulse are 0,`1,2,3,... Now, since if > you try to read those in increasing numerical order you will have poor > performance, you might instead map : > > 0 -> fisrt sector of file > 2 -> second sector of file > 4 -> third sector of file > > etc. > > Now, note that the sector numbers are 'wrong' in the sense that you do > not read the sectors in increasing numerical order. In this example you > read sector 2 long before you read sector 1. So you clearly have to know > the logical interleave table for reading and writing individual files > (unlike the physical interleave). > > It appears to me that logical interleave is a kludge to enable disks > formatted with the 'wrong' (for performance reasons) physical interleave > to be used at a reasonable performance without reformmatting. Since the > DEC RX01 was incapable of reformmatting a disk, it would be sensible to > use logical interleave to remap the sectors of a 'standard' disk to a > more suitable order. There does exist the possibility of designing a file system that could use different interleaves for different ways that certain file types are commonly accessed. > AFAIK Anadisk doesn't know anything about Logical interleave -- the > interleave it detects is the physical interleave determined by reading an > entire track and seeing what order the sector headers appear. In fact > it's impossible to determine the logical interleave unless there's some > known data on the disk -- the only way to determine it is to read said > data and then work out what order you should have read the sectors in. As Tony points out, it is trivial to analyze the physical interleave. Checking the logical interleave is easy IF there is known content. Checking the logical interleave is easy IF there is a human being looking at the results. Writing a program to do it is not very feasible. But you COULD write a program that would try various possibilities, and then make statistical comparisons of which ones produced the highest number of correctly spelled text words (or even grammar checking?), the highest number of valid instruction sequences, etc. The result would be the ability to report "what is the most PROBABLE logical interleave". All of which is MUCH easier to just use a human. > I would suggest telling 22disk that there is no logical interleave and > seeing what happens It is very rare to have BOTH a physical interleave AND a logical interleave, although such systems DO exist. Having one generally obviates the need for the other. Although it IS possible, when you find a physical interleave, it usually means that there will NOT be a logical interleave. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Nov 6 17:19:40 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Keyboard/Mouse substitute? In-Reply-To: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E97@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil>; from CordaAJ@nswc.navy.mil on Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 04:33:14PM -0500 References: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E97@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Message-ID: <20001106151940.A2130@loomcom.com> On Mon, Nov 06, 2000 at 04:33:14PM -0500, Corda Albert J DLVA wrote: > > Does anyone know if I can substitute > a keyboard and mouse from an early Mac? I think the keyboard must be from a Lisa, because of the 1/4" plug used. But my Lisa 2 came with the mouse from a Macintosh 128K, so that should work for you. -Seth From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Nov 6 18:24:30 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Keyboard/Mouse substitute? In-Reply-To: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E97@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.n avy.mil> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001106192430.384731bc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, AFIK there is no substitute for the Lisa keyboard. However I'm told that the mouse used on the early Macs will work on the Lisa. I think the plug on the Lisa mouse has some plastic pins that are missing on the Mac mouse and the plus has a slightly different shape. Joe At 04:33 PM 11/6/00 -0500, you wrote: > >I happened across a Lisa 2 (Model A6SB100) >this past weekend...Seems to be in fair >(restorable) shape. The nicads on the >I/O board are corroded, but that's easy >to fix. Unfortunately, the Keyboard >and mouse are missing. > >Does anyone know if I can substitute >a keyboard and mouse from an early Mac? >(the ones with the non-adb keyboards >and db9-connector mice). I don't mind >hacking the connectors, if someone can >give me the pinout info. As far as I >can tell, the lisa uses some sort of >mini-db9 for the mouse, and a 1/4" >headphone-jack for the keyboard (weird!) > >If this isn't possible, I'd appreciate >any hints as to where I might find a >lisa keyboard/mouse (be nice now! :-) > >This critter also came with an Apple Profile >(model A9M0005) external hard disk that >seems to attach via a db-25 cable (to >the lisa's parallel port?) I noticed >that one of the pins on the lisa's >parallel port connector(db-25 female)is >blocked with epoxy (probably to prevent >people from connecting a serial cable >to it). Can I simply use a straight-through >db25 cable (with the blocked pin removed) >to connect the profile to the lisa, or >did apple use some sort of proprietary >wiring scheme? > >-Thanks! > >-al >-acorda@1bigred.com > > > From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Nov 6 17:40:05 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: TK50 tapes for "free" References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106095215.01ac0820@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <3A074155.6B39472B@idirect.com> >Chuck McManis wrote: > I've got about 20 TK50 tapes that are available for no cost. The catch is > that they are in Sunnyvale CA and if you can't come pick them up then > you'll need to pay postage to your address. These tapes have been bulk > erased and can be used in either the TK50 (95MB) or the TK70 (295MB) tape > drive, the caveat is that if you initialize one on a TK50 drive, then the > TK70 will read it but not write it, if you initialize it on the TK70 drive > then the TK50 won't be able to read it. I refer you back to the archives to > refresh your memory that magnetically the specs for CompacTape I and > CompacTape II are identical. Jerome Fine replies: About a year ago, I acquired a number of TK50 tapes which I also bulk erased so that I could use them as TK70 tapes. I am pleased to say that the experience has been positive, although I have not had occasion to use the tapes as much as I had hoped. So much for future plans. Also, a few of the tapes I acquired were totally blank, so I was immediately able to use them in a TK70. So much for DEC saying that the TK70 must use a CompacTape II - OK, DEC never actually said that, they just say that such and such is the only media they sell for the TK70. However, while we are on this same topic, I thought I might ask? If a tape is used in the TK70 for writing - which means that the TK50 will not be able to read the data - is it still possible to put the tape in a TK50 drive and start using it as a TK50 tape? Namely, does the TK50 drive object to using a tape that has been written upon in a TK70 drive? I will try it out myself, but if I know what to expect (namely that some TK50 drives can't do it - or perhaps all of them), then I will not keep messing up good TK70 tapes which now also can't be used in a TK50. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 6 17:50:16 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Keyboard/Mouse substitute? In-Reply-To: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E97@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> (message from Corda Albert J DLVA on Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:33:14 -0500) References: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E97@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Message-ID: <20001106235016.7246.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I happened across a Lisa 2 (Model A6SB100) > this past weekend...Seems to be in fair [...] > Does anyone know if I can substitute > a keyboard and mouse from an early Mac? Mouse yes. Keyboard no. > This critter also came with an Apple Profile > (model A9M0005) external hard disk that > seems to attach via a db-25 cable (to > the lisa's parallel port?) I noticed > that one of the pins on the lisa's > parallel port connector(db-25 female)is > blocked with epoxy (probably to prevent > people from connecting a serial cable > to it). Can I simply use a straight-through > db25 cable (with the blocked pin removed) > to connect the profile to the lisa, Yes. > or did apple use some sort of proprietary > wiring scheme? Fortunately not. Good luck! Eric From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 6 17:05:10 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Keyboard/Mouse substitute? In-Reply-To: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E97@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Corda Albert J DLVA wrote: > Does anyone know if I can substitute > a keyboard and mouse from an early Mac? > (the ones with the non-adb keyboards > and db9-connector mice). I don't mind > hacking the connectors, if someone can > give me the pinout info. As far as I > can tell, the lisa uses some sort of > mini-db9 for the mouse, and a 1/4" > headphone-jack for the keyboard (weird!) The original Mac mouse will work on the Lisa. The keyboard is a totally different story, as I'm sure you've realized by now. The keyboard connector on a Lisa is a 1/4" phono jack, which is quite odd (I've only seen this used on a couple other machines). Don't have any technical details for you unfortunately. > If this isn't possible, I'd appreciate > any hints as to where I might find a > lisa keyboard/mouse (be nice now! :-) They occasionally come up for sale on eBay, but don't pay the inflated price for a mouse. Just buy the keyboard (which will also be inflated but your options are limited here) and find an old Mac mouse in a thrift store. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 6 16:16:18 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: TK50 tapes for "free" In-Reply-To: <3A074155.6B39472B@idirect.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106095215.01ac0820@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106161419.01d64808@208.226.86.10> At 06:40 PM 11/6/2000 -0500, you wrote: >If a tape is used in the TK70 for writing - which means that the TK50 will >not be able to read the data - is it still possible to put the tape in a TK50 >drive and start using it as a TK50 tape? Namely, does the TK50 drive >object to using a tape that has been written upon in a TK70 drive? Once written by a TK70 it stays that way until its bulk erased. I was told that just inserting a blank tape into the drive would cause it to write a "header" that identified it as a TKxx tape. This I don't know but I have done the experiment you propose and the only way to get the TK50 to talk to it was to bulk erase it. --Chuck From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 6 18:22:17 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics In-Reply-To: <3A072597.1D7C919C@home.com> Message-ID: > Sold a pair of old Jensen speakers to a guy in Korea the other day and >am shipping them via DHL Worldwide. They have refused to accept the >items until I come up with a "gauss reading" for the magnetic field???? > Anyone ever heard of such a thing? I did a fair bit of research and >found their maximum allowable reading is ".00525" but no one at DHL has >a clue what that means. I'm assuming it is a measurement in gauss at >some prescribed distance from the package. On average the strength of >most high powered speaker magnets is in the range of 10,000 to 15,000 >gauss, >but that is measured at the voice coil [in the center of the field]. The >field would decrease [as the square or maybe even the cube] of the >distance. > Stumped, > Craig They must mean the field as measured at the outside of the packing, otherwise no hard drive could be shipped with super powerfull magnets used in the head positioners. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 6 18:17:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:38 2005 Subject: RS6000 rundown In-Reply-To: References: <3A06F93D.1E9E09AB@softstar.it> Message-ID: >>With AIX 3.x you need real IBM keyboards and mice, but from 4.x you can just >>use some PC junk. I installed 4.2.1 on one of the 320H and it works fine. >Ouch! I've still got a RS/6000 390 on my desk at work because I refuse to One of the places I visit gets a lot of servers, mostly fairly new off lease stuff way too expensive for me, but they also get a fair amount of old things like these IBM PowerPC servers. I need to add a new category to my collecting like a hole in the head, but they are kind of available and I am fairly curious about them, but I don't have a clue about what I should be looking for or paying. Any links or comments on the IBM desktop sized server line? I am fairly up to speed through the last of the MCA machines, ie server 300 or 500?, but then what? What would make a good machine to collect? Any specfics on things like keyboards etc. I should be looking for? From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 6 17:39:35 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics In-Reply-To: References: <3A072597.1D7C919C@home.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106173623.01964950@208.226.86.10> > They (DHL) have refused to accept the > items until I come up with a "gauss reading" for the magnetic field???? Hmm, they are probably concerned about destroying magnetic media in neighboring packages. Other than that I can't figure out why they would care (it won't be enough to pull a magnetic compass off course for example). There are gauss meters around, if this is there requirement I bet they have one in their pickup stores. --Chuck From jrasite at eoni.com Mon Nov 6 19:47:16 2000 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: TK50 tapes for "free" References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106095215.01ac0820@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <3A075EED.4DDA61CB@eoni.com> I have this Everex tape drive... EMAC 60T. SCSI. It looks like it might take a tape similar to a TK 50. Does anyone know if this is true? (HP Datacassette?) I'm open for suggestions (and if it will help, I can take a pic of the mechanism and put it up somewhere you can look it over.) I'd really like to make it work! TIA. Jim Arnott From ip500 at home.com Mon Nov 6 20:07:53 2000 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics References: <3A072597.1D7C919C@home.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001106173623.01964950@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <3A0763F9.B85BA274@home.com> Hmmm, indeed! I can't really figure the rational either. UPS, FedEX, BAX....even the FAA never heard of this "requirement". And negative on the gauss meter at the pickup centers. A direct quote from one of the phone drones "If you cannot get the information from the mfg you'll have to take it to a lab and get it tested"...of course they couldn't supply the testing parameters...I was just guessing at the 10 meteres distance figure that I finally used and ...none of the mfg's supply magnet strength in gauss in their literature [sales or tech]. Classic Catch-22, Craig Chuck McManis wrote: > > > They (DHL) have refused to accept the > > items until I come up with a "gauss reading" for the magnetic field???? > > Hmm, they are probably concerned about destroying magnetic media in > neighboring packages. Other than that I can't figure out why they would > care (it won't be enough to pull a magnetic compass off course for > example). There are gauss meters around, if this is there requirement I bet > they have one in their pickup stores. > > --Chuck From claudew at sprint.ca Mon Nov 6 20:24:10 2000 From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: RS6000...I have one taking up space here - for donation/trade... Message-ID: <3A0767CA.526903FD@sprint.ca> Hi With all this talk about RS6000 servers, I would like to say I have a 320H 7012 type that has almost gone to the dumpster in the last two major basement cleanings I have done. It was removed from service and brought here. I booted it several times with the old AIX on there and everything was working. Plan was to put Linux on there...but then i learned it's not available...I pulled the 2 SCSI drives from it and never re-installed them. It was working last time I re-started it (3 months ago) with a Wyse 60 connected to the great modu10 serial connector (had to build an adapter plug - thanks IBM) using the diag/boot floppy disks for it that I have... No keyboard...no monitor...MCA arch...80Megs Ram, floppy, Token Ring network card, something I was told was a Sabine accel. video card (?), scsi card. I have no use or space for this. I would like to give it away or maybe at least get something in exchange...I collect micros from the 197x-198x...current wish list includes : trs80 mod III, NExT, Atari 800 or CP/M systems or anything else interesting...I am NOT looking for $$$ for this...I don't have the time to bother seeling it on epay, I am not even signed up to sell or buy on epay... One hitch : I am in Montreal, Canada. So if you dont want the whole thing (29 pounds on my people scale) or I can always just ship some boards, or whatever...I you need more info or pics, just email...I am not too familliar with the R6000 machines... Thanks Claude claudew@sprint.ca From rws at enteract.com Mon Nov 6 20:16:18 2000 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106173623.01964950@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Hmm, they are probably concerned about destroying magnetic media in > neighboring packages. Other than that I can't figure out why they would > care (it won't be enough to pull a magnetic compass off course for > example). There are gauss meters around, if this is there requirement I bet > they have one in their pickup stores. No, actually they are concerned about the airplane's compass. This is why there are shipping placards that read "Magnetized Material, Keep Away from Aircraft Compass Detector Unit" that must be applied if the material exceeds a certain limit. Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Nov 6 20:20:57 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics References: <3A072597.1D7C919C@home.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001106173623.01964950@208.226.86.10> <3A0763F9.B85BA274@home.com> Message-ID: <3A076709.8613D8B0@mainecoon.com> ip500 wrote: > > Hmmm, indeed! I can't really figure the rational either. UPS, FedEX, > BAX....even the FAA never heard of this "requirement". [snip] As an aside, it turns out that the FAA sets _minimums_, not standards. Both the airline/air freight company and the _airport_ can set additional standards above those set by the FAA. This applies to civil airline security as well. You can cruise through a checkpoint at one airport carrying something (a good example being a Leatherman tool) but be refused entry at another. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From marvin at rain.org Mon Nov 6 20:33:58 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics References: <3A072597.1D7C919C@home.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001106173623.01964950@208.226.86.10> <3A0763F9.B85BA274@home.com> <3A076709.8613D8B0@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <3A076A16.978D3914@rain.org> Chris Kennedy wrote: > > > As an aside, it turns out that the FAA sets _minimums_, not standards. > Both the airline/air freight company and the _airport_ can set additional > standards above those set by the FAA. > > This applies to civil airline security as well. You can cruise through > a checkpoint at one airport carrying something (a good example > being a Leatherman tool) but be refused entry at another. Ah, this explains why I was able to carry a 12V 7AH gel cell with me effortlessly through Japan and China with Los Angeles saying they wouldn't allow it. On the flight over, I got a NW Airline rep to retrieve it for me; on the way back and tired from being up for some 24 hours, I politely told them to keep it and didn't add where :). From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Nov 6 20:40:22 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: TK50 tapes for "free" References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106095215.01ac0820@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001106161419.01d64808@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <3A076B96.DF6A5AF@idirect.com> >Chuck McManis wrote: > >If a tape is used in the TK70 for writing - which means that the TK50 will > >not be able to read the data - is it still possible to put the tape in a TK50 > >drive and start using it as a TK50 tape? Namely, does the TK50 drive > >object to using a tape that has been written upon in a TK70 drive? > Once written by a TK70 it stays that way until its bulk erased. I was told > that just inserting a blank tape into the drive would cause it to write a > "header" that identified it as a TKxx tape. This I don't know but I have > done the experiment you propose and the only way to get the TK50 to talk to > it was to bulk erase it. Jerome Fine replies: Thank you. So I understand that a TK50 drive will not accept a tape that a TK70 drive has actually used. But then, what happens after the TK50 drive has attempted to "use" that tape? Can the TK70 drive still actually use the tape or must it be bulk erased again before either the TK50 or the TK70 can actually "use" the tape? By "use", I mean at least try an INIT command - asuming that the drive thinks that the tape is online! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Nov 6 20:58:42 2000 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics In-Reply-To: <3A0763F9.B85BA274@home.com> Message-ID: Well, as a lifelong Audio Geek and recently Chief Engineer at MGM Studios, I can tell you that A) I have shipped hundreds, if not thousands of speakers all over the world. I have never, once, been asked to provide a specific magnetic leakage figure. I have been required to state what's in the box, but not always... and B) I have never, ever, had anythng other than hateful bad luck with DHL... I personally would refuse to ship if DHL was the only method. YMMV, but why risk it? If you are shipping two similar speakers, place them facing each other flange to flange and bolt them together with four bolts (or more).. this provides the best strength and protection possible. Then try and pack them so they are supported by the rims and not the magnet structures. This will minimize the leakage flux. Mark the box (and the commercial invoice "Electrical Transducer" and then call FedEx or UPS or even the USPS 'Global Priority' service... but forget DHL. And don't bother mentioning 'raw speakers'. ALSO: Aircraft compasses are generally of the flux-gate or flux-ring variety, and use a counter-revolving pattern of light to measure the fields, and are much less susceptible to stray fields than the ancient magnetic compasses, which some planes still have, but only use as a secondary nav instrument. Chris Kennedy can give this chapter and verse, but it's WAY off topic. Shipping magnetized material (big disk drives, media, etc) is more "on" IMHO> Don't Use DHL! YukPoo! Icky Bad! No! Noooo! Cheers John From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Nov 6 21:21:16 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics References: <3A072597.1D7C919C@home.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001106173623.01964950@208.226.86.10> <3A0763F9.B85BA274@home.com> <3A076709.8613D8B0@mainecoon.com> <3A076A16.978D3914@rain.org> Message-ID: <3A07752C.48FD0EE4@mainecoon.com> Marvin wrote: > Ah, this explains why I was able to carry a 12V 7AH gel cell with me > effortlessly through Japan and China with Los Angeles saying they wouldn't > allow it. Funny, that's the self-same airport where I had problems... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 6 22:46:17 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: TK50 tapes for "free" In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106095215.01ac0820@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001106095215.01ac0820@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106204522.00a33aa0@208.226.86.10> TK50 tape carts weigh 8 oz each. So priority mail its about $3.20 for 4, $4.30 for 6. --Chuck At 01:06 PM 11/6/00 -0600, you wrote: >>I've got about 20 TK50 tapes that are available for no cost. The catch is >>that they are in Sunnyvale CA and if you can't come pick them up then >>you'll need to pay postage to your address. These tapes have been bulk >>erased and can be used in either the TK50 (95MB) or the TK70 (295MB) tape >>drive, the caveat is that if you initialize one on a TK50 drive, then the >>TK70 will read it but not write it, if you initialize it on the TK70 >>drive then the TK50 won't be able to read it. I refer you back to the >>archives to refresh your memory that magnetically the specs for >>CompacTape I and CompacTape II are identical. >> >>--Chuck > >What would shipping cost to the chicago area (zip 60190)? > >thanks. > >-Bob > >Bob Brown >Saved by grace >Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 6 22:48:01 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics In-Reply-To: <3A0763F9.B85BA274@home.com> References: <3A072597.1D7C919C@home.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001106173623.01964950@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106204727.02a2c6b0@208.226.86.10> At 09:07 PM 11/6/00 -0500, you wrote: >And negative >on the gauss meter at the pickup centers. Well if they have no way to test it then I suppose you could put down whatever you wanted :-) --Chuck From ip500 at home.com Mon Nov 6 22:58:39 2000 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics References: <3A072597.1D7C919C@home.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001106173623.01964950@208.226.86.10> <5.0.0.25.2.20001106204727.02a2c6b0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <3A078BFF.3B7A6F78@home.com> CORRECT! Give that man the prize... The trick was finding out the "magic number" that was their cutoff figure. When I actually measured one with a cheap school gauss meter and came up with 11,000 gauss, I called and gave them that figure. Gasp..and then dead silence.. " our maximum is .00525 Gauss". At that point I realized we were talking Apples & Oranges here..not even on the same page and asked to speak to a supervisor. They didn't have a clue how their max was derived or what it really was. At that point and now I'd have to agree...DHL..pohee--Bad! NONE of the other International shipping companies had ever heard of the requirement. The DHL shipment was prepaid by the purchaser and scheduled for that afternoon so no choice of shipper but never again. I can just imagine the hastle of shipping something really weird [like a huge OLD disc drive] with DHL! Craig Since this has drifted WAY off of classic comp...why don't we kill the thread with this post? Chuck McManis wrote: > > At 09:07 PM 11/6/00 -0500, you wrote: > >And negative > >on the gauss meter at the pickup centers. > > Well if they have no way to test it then I suppose you could put down > whatever you wanted :-) > > --Chuck From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 6 22:56:15 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics In-Reply-To: <3A0763F9.B85BA274@home.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, ip500 wrote: > Hmmm, indeed! I can't really figure the rational either. UPS, > FedEX, BAX....even the FAA never heard of this "requirement". And > negative on the gauss meter at the pickup centers. A direct quote from > one of the phone drones "If you cannot get the information from the > mfg you'll have to take it to a lab and get it tested"...of course > they couldn't supply the testing parameters...I was just guessing at > the 10 meteres distance figure that I finally used and ...none of the > mfg's supply magnet strength in gauss in their literature [sales or > tech]. Just ask them what the acceptable range is and pick a number in the middle, then give it to them. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Nov 7 00:05:05 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: A couple of Bondwell 2 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c04880$ac716420$c99e72d1@cobweb.net> Tony, Thanks for all the info. I'm beginning to understand some of this CP/M formatting now. -> You were very lucky it was as little damage as this. Normally getting the -> +12V supply on the +5V pin wipes out every logic chip on the drive... After getting away from the problem for a while and sleeping on it (actually, thinking about it before I fell asleep), I agree with you that what is controlling the FET is the problem. There are only IC's on this floppy, not counting the spindle drive. One is the stepper controller, the other is a QFP mounted like the gate array on the Amstrad PCW8256. Perhaps one of its outputs is blown open? -> > was no power to the stepper motor controller IC. Q1 ( I think it is a -> > small SCR, since its three legs are marked S, G and D) which -> -> That would make it an FET. Source, Gate, Drain. Thanks for the correction. -> > switches/regulates power to the stepper IC seems inop. When I short the -> > S and G leads, the controller IC gets +5V, the stepper motor works and -> -> One thing puzzles me here. Gate (G) is the control electrode of an FET -- -> like the base of a transistor of the first grid of a valve. If shorting -> that to Source turns on the power, then most likely the device itself is -> OK, and the control electronics isn't driving it. -> -> Can you trace out the circuitry connected to the 3 pins on this device? The Bondwell is back together, and it may be a while before I get to it again. That is why I was hoping someone had a schematic for the floppy. I don't know if the drive is original or not. Why would a DS drive be in a unit that only uses one side. The EPSON SMD-170 is a SSDD 400K, but I can't find any info on it either (other than a mention on the web of it being a "SSQD" 3.5". -> -> -> > the floppy drive functions. The Bondwell now will boot, format and copy -> > disks. The only markings on Q1, TO-92'ish, are A854 (date code or -> > 2SA854?) and S G D. I think this device is in the circuit to save -> > power; perhaps when the floppy is not selected, the head stepper is left -> > to float free. Correct me if I'm wrong about this. The floppy is an -> -> Yes, that's quite normal. Many drives, not just in laptops do this. -> -> > early 720K DSDD (even though the Bondwell is only SSDD) Epson SMD-180B. -> > -> > Question #1. Does anyone have schematics for this drive? -> > -> > Also, I tried to build a custom disk definition for the Bondwell 2 for -> > 22disk v1.44. I used Anadisk to evaluate the Bondwell floppy format, -> I think you're getting confused as to the 2 types of interleave... Correct again. I was confusing the physical and logical interleaves, specifically which fields in 22DISK were for which one. I can use ANADISK and see the physical format, and if a text file follows this format, no problem. If it doesn't, then I have to locate a file or files that I can compare it with (like I did with STAT tonight on the Otrona) to ascertain the logical format. So, as I understand it, ANADISK will usually give me the physical format (which is what follows the 22DISK SIDES keyword?), and if it is a standard interleave, no problem, I just specify the e interleave with SKEW and leave SIDES in numerical order? But what if there is both physical and logical interleave? How do I define this? I have an unknown CP/M disk with three files on it that ANADISK reports as 1:1 from beginning to end, but it has a logical interleave. I figured out the interleave, and I can read the directory OK with 22DISK, yet the files still come out jumbled when transferred to DOS. For the most part in CPMDISKS, I noticed that if SKEW is specified, the sector order is straight numerical, and if SKEW is not specified the sector order is defined after SIDES. But there are some definitions where this is not true. I also noticed that some SIDES definitions have the first sector as 0, and others with 1. Does ANADISK report the first physical sector number (0 or 1) correctly? BTW, here's a working definition for this Bondwell 2: BEGIN BON3 Bondwell 2 - SSDD 3.5" DENSITY MFM ,LOW CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 1 SECTORS 18,256 SKEW 2 SIDE1 0 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17 BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 174 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 2 END As an exercise, I worked up a definition tonight for an Otrona Attach?, DSDD, not looking at the definition for it already in the CPMDISKS.DEF. I managed to get it all correct except for ORDER EAGLE. I had used ORDER CYLINDER, but couldn't get it to work correctly. EAGLE is not defined in the documentation I have. What does EAGLE define? I know the Otrona disk has a strange layout. -> Physical interleave, which is what Anadisk detects, means that the This I knew. -> AFAIK Anadisk doesn't know anything about Logical interleave -- the -> interleave it detects is the physical interleave determined by reading an -> entire track and seeing what order the sector headers appear. This also. -> In fact it's impossible to determine the logical interleave unless -> there's some known data on the disk -- the only way to determine it is to -> read said data and then work out what order you should have read the -> sectors in. Yes, I well recall the recent discussion about this. -> the fact that a known file (dump.asm) reads correctly under Anadisk -> without logical interleave suggests that there is _no_ logical interleave. Correct again. Like I mentioned earlier, my main point of confusion was how to tell 22DISK what the interleave is, and I understand it now if there is only physical interleave. What if it is an oddball physical that can't be defined by SKEW? I still don't think I know how to define a logical interleave or a physical and logical interleave mix for 22DISK. -> -tony -> Thanks again, Tony, Bill From enrico.badella at softstar.it Tue Nov 7 01:59:24 2000 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: RS6000 memory boards References: Message-ID: <3A07B65C.539DA828@softstar.it> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > Ouch! I've still got a RS/6000 390 on my desk at work because I refuse to > move to NT. Trust me, run Netscape 3.03, a lot of sites can't handle it, > but the old RS6k's can't handle Nescrape 4! Save 4 for the pages 3 can't I know but that was just a test. I prefer running N4 on my Sun Ultra 5 with 512M RAM :-) since it frequently crashes on my NT box. e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From enrico.badella at softstar.it Tue Nov 7 02:12:00 2000 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: RS6000 rundown References: <3A06F93D.1E9E09AB@softstar.it> Message-ID: <3A07B950.EC8ADBB6@softstar.it> Mike Ford wrote: > > One of the places I visit gets a lot of servers, mostly fairly new off > lease stuff way too expensive for me, but they also get a fair amount of > old things like these IBM PowerPC servers. I need to add a new category to > my collecting like a hole in the head, but they are kind of available and I > am fairly curious about them, but I don't have a clue about what I should > be looking for or paying. Paying as little as possible :-) I picked up my 7013 59H for free at the owner's site. They are quite well configured. CD, HP DAT, 16 GB disks in 8 disks onfortunately no RAM. RATS GRRRR > Any links or comments on the IBM desktop sized server line? I am fairly up > to speed through the last of the MCA machines, ie server 300 or 500?, but Forget the 7012 3xx, if you can try to get a 7011, nothing terrific but usable. I got two of them each with 64M RAM. I moved all the RAM in one and it is a nice desktop, nothing comparable to modern Sun like boxes but what can I pretend from a free PowerPC .... > What would make a good machine to collect? > > Any specfics on things like keyboards etc. I should be looking for? The 7011 accept PC keyboard & mouse with all versions of AIX. The 7012 only with AIX 4.x You will find the 70xx label generally on the front,top, right corner of the box. If you see a 7012/59H in the place you visit can you ask if you can just purchase the RAm boards and for how much TIA e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From PeksaDO at Cardiff.ac.uk Tue Nov 7 09:05:34 2000 From: PeksaDO at Cardiff.ac.uk (DOUG PEKSA - COMPG) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX BA123? Message-ID: <3A07C5D6.17432.4D94732@localhost> I have a MicroVAX II which has been upgraded to a MicroVAX 3. I say MicroVAX 3 because that is what is on the upgrade decal and the DEC instruction booklet refers to the upgrade as a Microvax 3. Are there MicroVAX III decals out there, is the MicroVAX 3 decal unusual, or are both common? Doug. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Nov 7 03:01:25 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001106204727.02a2c6b0@208.226.86.10> References: <3A0763F9.B85BA274@home.com> <3A072597.1D7C919C@home.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20001106173623.01964950@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >At 09:07 PM 11/6/00 -0500, you wrote: >>And negative >>on the gauss meter at the pickup centers. > >Well if they have no way to test it then I suppose you could put down >whatever you wanted :-) > >--Chuck You mean make a gauss guess? From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Nov 7 04:16:31 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX BA123? In-Reply-To: <3A07C5D6.17432.4D94732@localhost> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001107021545.032cac00@208.226.86.10> I don't know, I do know that my BA23 has a "MicroVAX III" badge (square with a spring on the back) like all BA23 badges. It is embossed plastic. --Chuck At 09:05 AM 11/7/00 +0000, you wrote: >I have a MicroVAX II which has been upgraded to a >MicroVAX 3. I say MicroVAX 3 because that is what >is on the upgrade decal and the DEC instruction >booklet refers to the upgrade as a Microvax 3. Are >there MicroVAX III decals out there, is the >MicroVAX 3 decal unusual, or are both common? > >Doug. From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Tue Nov 7 08:07:29 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist Install In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I see that the RZ25 is not supported to install the openvms 7.2 system to (from the hobbyist cd)..would that explain the numerous parity errors that I get when I try to install to an RZ25? (or is my RZ25 probably toast)... I got it to install ok to an RZ24...I just need to know if my RZ25 might still be useful to install other components to (and just isn't supported for the main system install), or if the drive is likely bad. thanks. -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Nov 7 08:10:21 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: MULTICS Installation, Halifax In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2E2@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <13593631922.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Availability?] FTP, or similar. It's available now, it's just undergoing some pretty major surgery. ------- From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Tue Nov 7 08:15:48 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: PDP-10 Emulator (was: Re: MULTICS Installation, Halifax) In-Reply-To: <20001103084722.B1086@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <13593632915.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Stu Grossman's kx10] I have a copy of this. It works OK, it will boot TOPS-20, but there's not much to do with a single-user TOPS-20. It also doesn't have any kind of console or debugger of it's own. Tape support is sorely lacking, and it only supports a single RP06. Mine's going to be a lot nicer. :P As far as why it isn't out, there's a good reason for that - Stu doesn't have the time to properly support it, and he's not satisfied with the condition the software is in. ------- From mbg at world.std.com Tue Nov 7 08:41:19 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist Install References: Message-ID: <200011071441.JAA27356@world.std.com> >I see that the RZ25 is not supported to install the openvms 7.2 system to >(from the hobbyist cd)..would that explain the numerous parity errors >that I get when I try to install to an RZ25? (or is my RZ25 probably >toast)... The parity errors are hardware related and shouldn't be the reason why it won't allow you to install unless the errors occurred in critical regions of the disk which would prevent the on-disk directory structure to be established. If it installs on an RZ24, it should install on an RZ25... just not *that* RZ25... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Nov 7 09:09:58 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: An article on the ZX-81 kits still being sold in the US In-Reply-To: <32.b14e312.271137ec@aol.com> Message-ID: <3A082956.6694.22DBAED4@localhost> From: Glenatacme@aol.com Date sent: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 22:37:32 EDT Subject: Re: An article on the ZX-81 kits still being sold in the US To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/13785.html > Talk about shoddy journalism! The Z80A included in these kits is certainly > *not* a "1 MHz" processor, and the kits -- like all ZX81s -- have only 1 KB > RAM onboard, not 2 KB as stated in the article. Not completely. There _are_ 2 KB kits around - as you may remember, the ZX81 board was to be used with either two 2114 (1KB)or one 6116(2KB). Servus Hans BTW: The Register is notorious for fast an swallow articles. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 7 07:45:31 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Keyboard/Mouse substitute? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2F4@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > Does anyone know if I can substitute > a keyboard and mouse from an early Mac? > (the ones with the non-adb keyboards > and db9-connector mice). I don't mind > hacking the connectors, if someone can > give me the pinout info. As far as I > can tell, the lisa uses some sort of > mini-db9 for the mouse, and a 1/4" > headphone-jack for the keyboard (weird!) Mouse: yes Keyboard: no However... Somewhere out there, there's fairly complete info on the Lisa hardware. It should include details, if not on the keyboard itself, on the interface to the keyboard. From that, you might be able to modify a spare Mac keyboard to work until you can find a Lisa replacement. Worse case, you'll have to use a microcontroller to convert between the two interfaces, requiring some custom work on your part. -dq From jjackson at salsa-digital.com Tue Nov 7 10:18:03 2000 From: jjackson at salsa-digital.com (James Jackson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: SBC80/10 Message-ID: <3A082B3B.488B2ACF@salsa-digital.com> Hey folks, Rummagng through my pile of stuff - came across this... SBC80/10 Single Board Computer (Intel) I have both the Hardware Reference Manual and the PCB that goes with it. (I believe that it's a Multi-Bus I card form factor.) It looks like it is complete... some missing chips on the parallel I/O (I think that these are just MC1488's or MC1489's), and some PROMs. It has a monitor PROM plugged in, so should come up as-is. I also have another board that I stored with this one... looks like a memory board... the part number on it is... 16Kx8/450 RAM Module. ------ Is there any interest in this? Regards, James Jackson From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Nov 7 11:17:04 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: H-89.... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20001027203549.3a6f3b0e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001107121704.0c071866@mailhost.intellistar.net> Gene, I was scanning some other stuff and found an ad for the H-89 in the Dec 1980 issue of Byte magazine. I scanned it and posted it at "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/misc/h89.jpg" in case you want to see it. I have haven't edited it or changed the image size or anything so it's big. I also have a scan of the full page that it was on if you want it. It's at "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/1980byte/page 258.jpg". I'll scan the Heathkit catalog when I get a chance. Joe At 07:13 PM 10/27/00 -0700, you wrote: >> >putting all the manuals online as PDF files. Is there any interest in >> >this? All the searching I've done on the net for H-8/11/88/89 info has >> >turned up a pitiful lack of info. If you've got anything you'd like to >> >see on a dedicated Heathkit computer page, please let me know. >> >> >> Cool Gene. I have an old Heathkit catalog that lists the H-89. If you >> like, I'll scan it and you can add it to your website. >> >That would be great Joe! It would give me an idea of what was available >for the machine, and what parts & docs I have to chase down. :) > >g. > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Nov 7 10:35:26 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: An article on the ZX-81 kits still being sold in the US In-Reply-To: <3A082956.6694.22DBAED4@localhost> References: <3A082956.6694.22DBAED4@localhost> Message-ID: > > Talk about shoddy journalism! The Z80A included in these kits is certainly >> *not* a "1 MHz" processor, and the kits -- like all ZX81s -- have only 1 KB >> RAM onboard, not 2 KB as stated in the article. > >Not completely. There _are_ 2 KB kits around - as you may remember, >the ZX81 board was to be used with either two 2114 (1KB)or one >6116(2KB). Not to mention that Zebra has been selling these online for quite some time now, along with Alphacom 32 printers and a good many books and manuals for the computer. Reading the article, you'd think it was a new development when the Zebra site shows the page was last updated on 11/29/99. BTW, for those curious, here's the full URL for Zebra's page; http://users.rcn.com/zebra.interport/ts2/index.html Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Nov 7 10:37:51 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Keyboard/Mouse substitute? In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2F4@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2F4@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >Somewhere out there, there's fairly complete >info on the Lisa hardware. It should include >details, if not on the keyboard itself, on the >interface to the keyboard. From that, you might >be able to modify a spare Mac keyboard to work >until you can find a Lisa replacement. The last time I checked with them, you could still get a new Lisa keyboard, with the notecards, for about $50 from Sun Remarketing. Might seem a bit pricey to some people, but there aren't a whole lot of other choices for this part. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 7 11:11:32 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: H-89.... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001107121704.0c071866@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > I was scanning some other stuff and found an ad for the H-89 in the Dec > 1980 issue of Byte magazine. I scanned it and posted it at > "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/misc/h89.jpg" in case you want to see it. I > have haven't edited it or changed the image size or anything so it's big. I > also have a scan of the full page that it was on if you want it. It's at > "www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/1980byte/page 258.jpg". > Damn. That's pretty cool Joe. :) > I'll scan the Heathkit catalog when I get a chance. Ok, thanks! g. From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 7 10:36:49 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Keyboard/Mouse substitute? In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB2F4@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Somewhere out there, there's fairly complete > info on the Lisa hardware. It should include > details, if not on the keyboard itself, on the > interface to the keyboard. From that, you might > be able to modify a spare Mac keyboard to work > until you can find a Lisa replacement. "Somewhere" starts at the VCF Link Library: http://www.vintage.org/cgi-bin/links.pl Click on Apple Resources, then scroll down to Lisa. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mranalog at home.com Tue Nov 7 11:53:33 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: "Basics of Analog Computers" book Message-ID: <3A08419D.3CE7DBD9@home.com> Bob said: > ...."Basics of Analog Computers" by T. D. Truit and A.E. Rogers, ...... > to the best 37-words-or-less reason for why you want ...... pre-historic > tome on analog computers, beautifully illustrated (seriously) with > pen-and-ink drawings on about every other page. Submit your entries to the > list by midnight November 10, 2000......... I have this book highlighted on my reading list of analog computer books as "the best book I have seen for someone new to analog computers". http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog/readlist.htm Most books on analog computing use tons of mathematical equations to illustrate a concept because they are aimed only at engineers. This book explains these concepts simply with wonderful drawings and a minimum of mathematics. I love reading it so much that I have one copy at work and one copy at home. But hey, that's just me. :) --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From badger at vbe.com Tue Nov 7 11:56:34 2000 From: badger at vbe.com (Michael Melland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Bondwell B310 Plus ? Message-ID: <3A084252.A8335E5C@vbe.com> Here is an old beast that I'm told needs a new drive (I'm told it turns on, spins but won't format) that may be on it's way to the dumpster at our surplus depot. If someone has a use for it let me know.... "if" I can talk the surplus manager out of it you could get it for shipping cost. No guarantees. I can get it but if someone wants it I can try. Regards, Mike Melland From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 7 12:27:30 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Keyboard/Mouse substitute? In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Nov 6, 0 03:05:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1118 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001107/7c229fb3/attachment.ksh From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 7 12:32:51 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: "Basics of Analog Computers" book In-Reply-To: <3A08419D.3CE7DBD9@home.com> Message-ID: Here's a prime example of an analog computer that's in current use: http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/BehindTheScenes/lockheed.html The images are pretty big, but I think you'll enjoy them. g. From gregorym at cadvision.com Tue Nov 7 13:10:09 2000 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: "Basics of Analog Computers" book References: Message-ID: <015101c048ee$58ccb180$0200a8c0@marvin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 11:32 AM Subject: Re: "Basics of Analog Computers" book > Here's a prime example of an analog computer that's in current use: > > http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/BehindTheScenes/lockheed.html > If the captions on the pictures (very nice, by the way) are correct, this simulator isn't an analog computer at all by the definition I'm familiar with. It uses tubes and relays, which are discrete digital components (they're either on or off, with no states in between). An analog computer as I understand it is something like a differential analyser, which uses rollers and turntables which have (virtually) infinite states, depending on how finely you can measure. Another example of an analog device would be a slide rule. Regards, Mark. From jlewczyk at his.com Tue Nov 7 13:29:42 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Keyboard/Mouse substitute? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c048f1$141850f0$6401a8c0@Corellian> Tons of Lisa technical docs are at a web page that isn't linked (yet) from the VCF library. http://lisa.sunder.net/ > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 11:37 AM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: Lisa 2 Keyboard/Mouse substitute? > > > On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Somewhere out there, there's fairly complete > > info on the Lisa hardware. It should include > > details, if not on the keyboard itself, on the > > interface to the keyboard. From that, you might > > be able to modify a spare Mac keyboard to work > > until you can find a Lisa replacement. > > "Somewhere" starts at the VCF Link Library: > > http://www.vintage.org/cgi-bin/links.pl > > Click on Apple Resources, then scroll down to Lisa. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 7 12:53:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: A couple of Bondwell 2 questions In-Reply-To: <000101c04880$ac716420$c99e72d1@cobweb.net> from "Bill Dawson" at Nov 7, 0 01:05:05 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3979 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001107/3c229d64/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 7 13:15:07 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 Keyboard/Mouse substitute? In-Reply-To: <000301c048f1$141850f0$6401a8c0@Corellian> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, John Lewczyk wrote: > Tons of Lisa technical docs are at a web page that isn't linked (yet) from the > VCF library. > http://lisa.sunder.net/ It is now. Thanks for the link. I'm always glad to get new links to add to the library. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 7 14:40:07 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: "Basics of Analog Computers" book In-Reply-To: <015101c048ee$58ccb180$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: > If the captions on the pictures (very nice, by the way) are correct, this Thanks. > simulator isn't an analog computer at all by the definition I'm familiar > with. It uses tubes and relays, which are discrete digital components > (they're either on or off, with no states in between). An analog computer > as I understand it is something like a differential analyser, which uses > rollers and turntables which have (virtually) infinite states, depending on > how finely you can measure. Another example of an analog device would be a > slide rule. Hmmm. I guess you'd be right. I just may have to update those pages. :) tnx.! g. From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Nov 7 15:09:27 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Electra sim computer (was: Re: "Basics of Analog Computers" book) References: Message-ID: <3A086F87.54B7EF13@mainecoon.com> Gene Buckle wrote: > > > If the captions on the pictures (very nice, by the way) are correct, this > Thanks. > > > simulator isn't an analog computer at all by the definition I'm familiar > > with. It uses tubes and relays, which are discrete digital components > > (they're either on or off, with no states in between). An analog computer > > as I understand it is something like a differential analyser, which uses > > rollers and turntables which have (virtually) infinite states, depending on > > how finely you can measure. Another example of an analog device would be a > > slide rule. > > Hmmm. I guess you'd be right. I just may have to update those pages. :) I wouldn't be so quick to do so. The prior post notwithstanding, while it's possible to use some tubes as bipolar devices there were certainly all sorts of analog computers that used tubes as voltage amps, op amps and comparators. If forced to classify (based on vintage, application and technology) this beast as analog, digital or hybred I'd certainly call it analog. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Tue Nov 7 15:20:07 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: "Basics of Analog Computers" book In-Reply-To: <015101c048ee$58ccb180$0200a8c0@marvin> from Mark Gregory at "Nov 7, 2000 12:10:09 pm" Message-ID: <20001107212008Z433826-147+31@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gene Buckle" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 11:32 AM > Subject: Re: "Basics of Analog Computers" book > > > > Here's a prime example of an analog computer that's in current use: > > > > http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/BehindTheScenes/lockheed.html > > > > If the captions on the pictures (very nice, by the way) are correct, this > simulator isn't an analog computer at all by the definition I'm familiar > with. It uses tubes and relays, which are discrete digital components > (they're either on or off, with no states in between). An analog computer > as I understand it is something like a differential analyser, which uses > rollers and turntables which have (virtually) infinite states, depending on > how finely you can measure. Another example of an analog device would be a > slide rule. > The last time I looked tubes were analogue devices. One of their main uses is as amplifiers, which is definitely an analogue function. If I remember correctly, one of the main problems with early tube computers (1940s and 1950s), was actually getting the tubes to behave like digital devices. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca McCalla Professor (780) 492-4584 Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From gaz_k at lineone.net Fri Nov 3 09:17:38 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Amiga Schtuff (was: NEC APC available References: <4.3.1.2.20001012210151.00ac9550@208.226.86.10><4.3.2.7.0.20001012182946.02872900@pc><4.3.2.7.0.20001012093924.028a0a30@pc> <3.0.1.32.20001013174614.01090ec8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <001201c04901$591de420$0101010a@pentium2> Roger Merchberger < > >I'd rather learn about some Amiga documentation project that would > >scan it all to CD, though, and donate it to them... but I get the > >impression that today's Amigoids aren't interested in the historical > >details, but more the latest-greatest that keeps their machines > >functional and alive. I fear you may be right. The task of documenting the Amigas history seems to have been left to just a few people, myself included. I wasn't around during the early days so I have extremely large holes in my collection. Of course, I would be interested if you ever wanted to get rid of any Amiga stuff. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com If you have sent email to me during the past two months and I have not replied, please resend it. From jamesg at PARRIMARK.COM.AU Tue Nov 7 17:03:01 2000 From: jamesg at PARRIMARK.COM.AU (James Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX BA123? Message-ID: <10C293B41F4AD311AF0800E0290B460C177E4F@MERCURY> I am relatively new to the VAX world, but I have already established that the very same thing was done to my MicroVAX by the previous owner... I have heaps of questions for the guy, but regretfully I inherited it from a deceased estate :-( What else was done as part of the MicroVAX II -> 3 upgrade? James > I have a MicroVAX II which has been upgraded to a > MicroVAX 3. I say MicroVAX 3 because that is what > is on the upgrade decal and the DEC instruction > booklet refers to the upgrade as a Microvax 3. Are > there MicroVAX III decals out there, is the > MicroVAX 3 decal unusual, or are both common? > > Doug. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001108/bbfa9ed1/attachment.html From badger at vbe.com Tue Nov 7 16:05:27 2000 From: badger at vbe.com (Michael Melland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Bondwell B310 Plus Spoken For... References: <3A084252.A8335E5C@vbe.com> Message-ID: <3A087CA7.17FF7374@vbe.com> Michael Melland wrote: > If someone has a use for it let me know.... "if" I can talk the surplus manager out of it you could > get it for shipping cost. The Bondwell B310 Plus has been spoken for and the Heathkit EC-1 I had earlier listed for sale has been purchased by a list member as well. Regards, Mike Melland From gregorym at cadvision.com Tue Nov 7 16:10:55 2000 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: "Basics of Analog Computers" book References: <20001107212008Z433826-147+31@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <021901c04907$9a06a7a0$0200a8c0@marvin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Green" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 2:20 PM Subject: Re: "Basics of Analog Computers" book > > The last time I looked tubes were analogue devices. One of their > main uses is as amplifiers, which is definitely an analogue function. > If I remember correctly, one of the main problems with early tube > computers (1940s and 1950s), was actually getting the tubes to behave > like digital devices. > Point taken on the nature of tubes, but they were primarily used in computers as bipolar devices, weren't they? The fact that a computer contains analogue devices doesn't make it an analogue computer. Mark. From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com Tue Nov 7 16:00:04 2000 From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:39 2005 Subject: Amiga 500 available In-Reply-To: <001201c04901$591de420$0101010a@pentium2> References: <4.3.1.2.20001012210151.00ac9550@208.226.86.10> <3.0.1.32.20001013174614.01090ec8@mail.30below.com> <001201c04901$591de420$0101010a@pentium2> Message-ID: <00110716124808.00204@Billbob_linux> Okey.. > Of course, I would be interested if you ever wanted to get rid of any Amiga > stuff. I've got an Amiga 500 (not sure which variant, but I could probably figure it out), an exernal 3.5" floppy, power supply, and some kind of memory (?) expansion that plugs in underneath the console. It's all in very nice, even excellent shape. I think I own it all for about $20, which is the minimum bid that I would accept. Any interest? -- Bill Layer Sales Technician +----------------------------------+ Viking Electronics, Inc. 1531 Industrial St. Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A 715.386.8861 ext. 210 +----------------------------------+ "Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century" Powered by Slackware Linux 7.1.0 From hsappleton at sprintmail.com Tue Nov 7 16:25:57 2000 From: hsappleton at sprintmail.com (Compusync) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: RS6000...I have one taking up space here - for donation/trade... References: <3A0767CA.526903FD@sprint.ca> Message-ID: <00db01c04909$b4d70e60$18d6d63f@headleys> Hi Hope you still have the video card. I have a 7011(Microchannel) machine without a video card. I have tried to hook it up to a terminal but that does not work. I guess I will have to get the video card. Been trying for months and even have a friend in Germany on the case for me. I ran into one some time ago, from a commercial source, but it was beyond my meager means. Not sure if that is the same video card, in your machine, but I am desperate to try it. If still available I will definitely pay shipping and can also offer something for trade if necessary. Please respond. Headley ----- Original Message ----- From: Claude To: Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 9:24 PM Subject: RS6000...I have one taking up space here - for donation/trade... > Hi > > With all this talk about RS6000 servers, I would like to say I have a > 320H 7012 type that has almost gone to the dumpster in the last two > major basement cleanings I have done. > > It was removed from service and brought here. I booted it several times > with the old AIX on there and everything was working. Plan was to put > Linux on there...but then i learned it's not available...I pulled the 2 > SCSI drives from it and never re-installed them. > > It was working last time I re-started it (3 months ago) with a Wyse 60 > connected to the great modu10 serial connector (had to build an adapter > plug - thanks IBM) using the diag/boot floppy disks for it that I > have... > > No keyboard...no monitor...MCA arch...80Megs Ram, floppy, Token Ring > network card, something I was told was a Sabine accel. video card (?), > scsi card. > > I have no use or space for this. > > I would like to give it away or maybe at least get something in > exchange...I collect micros from the 197x-198x...current wish list > includes : trs80 mod III, NExT, Atari 800 or CP/M systems or anything > else interesting...I am NOT looking for $$$ for this...I don't have the > time to bother seeling it on epay, I am not even signed up to sell or > buy on epay... > > One hitch : I am in Montreal, Canada. > > So if you dont want the whole thing (29 pounds on my people scale) or I > can always just ship some boards, or whatever...I you need more info or > pics, just email...I am not too familliar with the R6000 machines... > > Thanks > Claude > claudew@sprint.ca > > From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 7 16:27:26 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics Message-ID: Maybe DHL is flying Junkers Ju-52's or C-47's or maybe even Ford Tri-motors? Bizarre... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Tue Nov 7 16:32:37 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: "Basics of Analog Computers" book In-Reply-To: <021901c04907$9a06a7a0$0200a8c0@marvin> from Mark Gregory at "Nov 7, 2000 03:10:55 pm" Message-ID: <20001107223243Z433181-145+51@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Green" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 2:20 PM > Subject: Re: "Basics of Analog Computers" book > > > > The last time I looked tubes were analogue devices. One of their > > main uses is as amplifiers, which is definitely an analogue function. > > If I remember correctly, one of the main problems with early tube > > computers (1940s and 1950s), was actually getting the tubes to behave > > like digital devices. > > > > Point taken on the nature of tubes, but they were primarily used in > computers as bipolar devices, weren't they? The fact that a computer > contains analogue devices doesn't make it an analogue computer. > Depends. In the 1940s and 1950s they were used in both analogue and digital computers. After the early 1960s, tubes were replaced by transistors in digital computers (at least in North America), but they were still used in analogue computers. In terms of pure numbers, analogue computers greatly out numbered digital computers until some point in the 1960s. In the simulation area, digital computers didn't become cost effective for many applications until around 1970, particularly those requiring real-time. So, for early computers the use of tubes wasn't a good indication of whether the computer was analogue or digital. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca McCalla Professor (780) 492-4584 Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Nov 7 16:43:46 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: RS6000...I have one taking up space here - for donation/trade... References: <3A0767CA.526903FD@sprint.ca> <00db01c04909$b4d70e60$18d6d63f@headleys> Message-ID: <008c01c0490c$31a36180$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Compusync" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 8:55 AM Subject: Re: RS6000...I have one taking up space here - for donation/trade... > Hi > Hope you still have the video card. I have a 7011(Microchannel) machine > without a video card. I have tried to hook it up to a terminal but that does > not work. I guess I will have to get the video card. Been trying for months > and even have a friend in Germany on the case for me. Will any MCA video card work? I have an MCA VGA card out of a PS/2 of some kind if that's the case. Knowing IBM, I somehow doubt it... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From elvey at hal.com Tue Nov 7 16:44:54 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: "Basics of Analog Computers" book In-Reply-To: <021901c04907$9a06a7a0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <200011072244.OAA21723@civic.hal.com> "Mark Gregory" wrote: > > Point taken on the nature of tubes, but they were primarily used in > computers as bipolar devices, weren't they? The fact that a computer > contains analogue devices doesn't make it an analogue computer. Hi It still can be a hybrid even though parts were digital and parts were analog. Looking at the date of the machine, I would suspect that most of the calculating functions were analog and not digital. It may have had digital function for things like turning lights on and off but controlling pitch and yaw indicators was most likely an analog function. Looking at the pictures, I didn't see any tube portions that looked like digital functions. Some of the panels look vary much like the typical analog plug-in units used in other analog computers. I vary much doubt that the altimeter, rpm or compass were run from a digital source. I would say that to qualify as an analog computer, it should do most of the computation in an analog manner. I would suspect that this unit had most of its calculations in the analog world and just a few status conditions held in digital form. Then again, if I saw a digital looking computer someplace in the pictures, I might change my mind. I didn't see anything that looked digital, other than switches and lights. Dwight From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Nov 7 14:57:51 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX BA123? In-Reply-To: <10C293B41F4AD311AF0800E0290B460C177E4F@MERCURY> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001107145552.0195d2e0@208.226.86.10> At 09:03 AM 11/8/2000 +1000, you wrote: >What else was done as part of the MicroVAX II -> 3 upgrade? The only things done are the CPU card and memory are replaced. Then the sticker is applied :-) Everything else stays the same and "Poof!" your vax is 3x faster than it was. (0.9 VUPS vs 2.7VUPS) --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Nov 7 15:16:39 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Here's one for the DEC engineers Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001107151258.02769ec0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Well, I've got to give a toast to the folks in DEC Engineering, it may be that they had to deal with Field Circus screwing things up, but I for one really appreciate that DEC used keyed connectors, and appropriate cables, and sturdy hardware. I'm also glad that whomever designed the TQK70 did so such that plugging it in backwards in the Q-bus does it no apparent harm. I reassembled a VAXServer3400 after cleaning it and got the dreaded "E" in the display, after careful diagnosis (with the power on!) I noticed the TQK70's chips were on the wrong side of the board! (Is there any good way other than lying on the floor on your side to insert things into a BA213?) Powered off, pulled board, crossed myself and re-inserted it correctly. Voila, system boots and tape works fine. Cheers! --Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 7 17:32:39 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX BA123? Message-ID: <005201c04913$b9ec20c0$ba789a8d@ajp166> From: DOUG PEKSA - COMPG >is on the upgrade decal and the DEC instruction >booklet refers to the upgrade as a Microvax 3. Are >there MicroVAX III decals out there, is the >MicroVAX 3 decal unusual, or are both common? No, not unusual.Standard FS kits usually have all sorts of docs and rebadging material. What often happend was that someone would upgrade by attrition of another system or by ordering just what was required. With that you could have an assortment of markings. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 7 17:35:00 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Hobbyist Install Message-ID: <005301c04913$ba759c10$ba789a8d@ajp166> From: Bob Brown >I see that the RZ25 is not supported to install the openvms 7.2 system to Dont tell my system that. It is supported. >(from the hobbyist cd)..would that explain the numerous parity errors that >I get when I try to install to an RZ25? (or is my RZ25 probably toast)... You either have the jumpers wrong or a bad drive (missing terminator?). Allison From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 7 17:22:34 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX BA123? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001107145552.0195d2e0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: > >What else was done as part of the MicroVAX II -> 3 upgrade? > > The only things done are the CPU card and memory are replaced. Then the > sticker is applied :-) Everything else stays the same and "Poof!" your vax > is 3x faster than it was. (0.9 VUPS vs 2.7VUPS) > Does anyone here have a uVAX III boardset they want to part with? :) g. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 7 18:17:03 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics In-Reply-To: (message from John Lawson on Mon, 6 Nov 2000 21:58:42 -0500 (EST)) References: Message-ID: <20001108001703.21642.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Lawson wrote: > ALSO: Aircraft compasses are generally of the flux-gate or flux-ring > variety, and use a counter-revolving pattern of light to measure the > fields, and are much less susceptible to stray fields than the ancient > magnetic compasses, You've got me very curious. I'm familiar with flux-gate compasses which do not use light, and with laser ring gyros which do (but, of course, are not compasses). What's a flux-ring compass, and how does it use light? From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 7 17:23:44 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: "Basics of Analog Computers" book In-Reply-To: <20001107223243Z433181-145+51@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Mark Green wrote: > Depends. In the 1940s and 1950s they were used in both analogue > and digital computers. After the early 1960s, tubes were replaced > by transistors in digital computers (at least in North America), but > they were still used in analogue computers. In terms of pure numbers, > analogue computers greatly out numbered digital computers until some > point in the 1960s. In the simulation area, digital computers didn't > become cost effective for many applications until around 1970, particularly > those requiring real-time. So, for early computers the use of tubes > wasn't a good indication of whether the computer was analogue or > digital. The distinction between an analog computer and a digital computer is not in what components they use but rather the method by which they "compute". Analog computing is a completely different paradigm. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From rickb at bensene.com Tue Nov 7 18:47:04 2000 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Somewhat OT: Overseas Shipping In-Reply-To: <015101c048ee$58ccb180$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: I'm sure that some of you have had to deal with this before, and I've seen some opinions stated here about various shipping providers, so I figure I'll get some of the collective brains here to give me some pointers. It's a little off-topic, but applicable to anyone who collects old electronics. Europe is a great source for stuff like this. I've got someone in the UK that has a piece of vintage electronic equipment that I need shipped to me. I'm not in a particular hurry to get it...it doesn't need to be a 'next day', or even 'next week' type shipment. The major priorities are finding a carrier that: A) Isn't likely to lose the item B) Won't destroy it in handling (assuming it is very well packed) C) Won't cost me an arm and a leg D) Can deliver the parcel to my home E) Can handle a parcel weighing about 40 pounds Given these parameters, any suggestions of a carrier? I've heard some say that DHL is a good way to go, but I've also recently seem some very sour comments regarding DHL here. Any suggestions are welcomed and appreciated. Thanks, Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 7 18:44:14 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: PDP-10 Emulator (was: Re: MULTICS Installation, Halifax) In-Reply-To: <13593632915.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <13593632915.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <20001108004414.21894.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote: > [Stu Grossman's kx10] > I have a copy of this. It works OK, it will boot TOPS-20, but there's not > much to do with a single-user TOPS-20. It's not limited to single-user. It simulates an NIA20 ethernet interface and supports multiple users over telnet. I imagine it should work fine with LAT and DECnet also, but I haven't tried. > It also doesn't have any kind of console The console is the standard in and standard out of the terminal from which you invoked it. > Tape support is sorely lacking, Tape support works fine. That's how I installed TOPS-20 on it. > and it only supports a single RP06. Are you sure? I thought it supported eight of them. I'm not at home now so I can't check. > Mine's going to be a lot nicer. :P I hope you're right! :-) From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Nov 7 19:02:26 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Maybe DHL is flying Junkers Ju-52's or C-47's or maybe even Ford >Tri-motors? Bizarre... Ahhhh...to be so lucky as to fly in any of those three! Of course, the DC-3 is still in pretty heavy use for hauling cargo in the bush in some areas. Jeff -- Collector of Classic Microcomputers and Video Game Systems: Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 7 19:13:35 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: An article on the ZX-81 kits still being sold in the US In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: An article on the ZX-81 kits still being sold in the US" (Nov 7, 16:09) References: <3A082956.6694.22DBAED4@localhost> Message-ID: <10011080113.ZM24177@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 7, 16:09, Hans Franke wrote: > Not completely. There _are_ 2 KB kits around - as you may remember, > the ZX81 board was to be used with either two 2114 (1KB)or one > 6116(2KB). Not exactly; originally, it was a 2 x 2114 or 1 x 4118. Most UK ZX81s have a 4118, though some users did replace the 4118 with a 6116. I've never seen one originally fitted with a 6116, only upgrades (and I've seen a lot of ZX81s -- the workshop I was in at the time used to fix them by the bucketload). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 7 19:39:05 2000 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: AT&T 7300 References: <3.0.1.16.20001029083302.35572374@mailhost.intellistar.net> <39FC24EE.8CBD2308@home.net> Message-ID: <003d01c04925$48c0daf0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Cherry" To: Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2000 8:23 AM Subject: Re: AT&T 7300 > Joe wrote: > > > > At 11:58 PM 10/28/00 -0400, Neil wrote: > > >The 7300/3B1 was capable of running SYSV R3.1, I had a 3B1 with 3.2 > > > >I seemed to recal being able to reset all the passwords via the menu > > >system so as long as you could get in you could reset all the passwords. > > > > Correct, I seem to remember that TUTOR, ADMIN and INSTALL would get you > > into any machine that hadn't had the OS fixed. One of mine has the OS > > fixed and I still haven't figured out how to get into it but I haven't > > tried very hard either since I have two with the "broken" OS. > > You could also boot a systems disk and mount / . Once it was mounted you would > use vi to edit the /etc/passwd file. Well The machine has booted up with a login: prompt. How do I access the menu that will let me change the password? Any suggestions on a boot disk that will fir on a 5.25? Is this a 360 or a 1.2 meg drive? On the back are 3 ports labeled line 1, 2 and phone are these for a modem? Why 2 lines? Any sources for disks? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Nov 7 21:20:46 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Somewhat OT: Overseas Shipping In-Reply-To: References: <015101c048ee$58ccb180$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001107222046.3dcf6830@mailhost.intellistar.net> Rick, I recommend the USPS. They cost a fraction of UPS and the others and I've had good luck with them. However the british postal service has a reputation for damaging packages so I'd try to have the item taken to a main post office or some place similar in order to minimize the time that the package is in their hands. But be carefull of the weight. I tried to ship a 60 pound package to Japan and found out that it was going to cost $280 because they would only ship it by priority mail. I broke it up into two packages that weighed 35 and 23 pounds and the shipping was only about $80. For japan, anything that weighs more than 40 pounds has to be shipped by priority mail. FWIW a friend of mine shipped a very expensive oscilloscope to Japan at the same time by UPS and they completely destroyed it! Then UPS tried to claim that it was improperly packed, had the wrong address and a bunch of other excuses. He finally had to have the regional manager come out and see his packing setup (all new heavy duty boxs, a $5,000 foam in place machine, etc) before they would pay the claim. Joe At 04:47 PM 11/7/00 -0800, you wrote: >I'm sure that some of you have had to deal with this before, and I've seen >some opinions stated here about various shipping providers, so I figure >I'll get some of the collective brains here to give me some pointers. >It's a little off-topic, but applicable to anyone who collects old >electronics. Europe is a great source for stuff like this. > >I've got someone in the UK that has a piece of vintage electronic >equipment that I need shipped to me. I'm not in a particular hurry to get >it...it doesn't need to be a 'next day', or even 'next week' type shipment. > >The major priorities are finding a carrier that: > >A) Isn't likely to lose the item >B) Won't destroy it in handling (assuming it is very well packed) >C) Won't cost me an arm and a leg >D) Can deliver the parcel to my home >E) Can handle a parcel weighing about 40 pounds > >Given these parameters, any suggestions of a carrier? I've heard >some say that DHL is a good way to go, but I've also recently seem >some very sour comments regarding DHL here. > >Any suggestions are welcomed and appreciated. > >Thanks, >Rick Bensene >The Old Calculator Web Museum >http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators > > > > > From ncherry at home.net Tue Nov 7 20:23:14 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Vax message as system locks up Message-ID: <3A08B912.94BD1BC9@home.net> A while back I posted a message and mentioned a problem with the drives unmounting. Well here is the message: %SYSTEM-I-MOUNTVER, R7VEFG$DIA0: is offline. Mount verification in progress. After that I get a red line on the drive indicator and anything I on the console never returns. Any ideas? -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From ncherry at home.net Tue Nov 7 20:27:54 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: KA650 in MicroVAX BA123? References: Message-ID: <3A08BA2A.CE86A713@home.net> Gene Buckle wrote: > > > >What else was done as part of the MicroVAX II -> 3 upgrade? > > > > The only things done are the CPU card and memory are replaced. Then the > > sticker is applied :-) Everything else stays the same and "Poof!" your vax > > is 3x faster than it was. (0.9 VUPS vs 2.7VUPS) > > > Does anyone here have a uVAX III boardset they want to part with? :) > > g. EBAY does (sorry but that's where I found the KA650, the mem and a few boards). Aparently there were 2 different people providing equipment for auction 1 had the boards the other had a MicroVAX III for auction. I'll make no assumptions .... :-/ -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From elvey at hal.com Tue Nov 7 20:29:04 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics In-Reply-To: <20001108001703.21642.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200011080229.SAA21804@civic.hal.com> Eric Smith wrote: > John Lawson wrote: > > ALSO: Aircraft compasses are generally of the flux-gate or flux-ring > > variety, and use a counter-revolving pattern of light to measure the > > fields, and are much less susceptible to stray fields than the ancient > > magnetic compasses, > > You've got me very curious. I'm familiar with flux-gate compasses which > do not use light, and with laser ring gyros which do (but, of course, > are not compasses). What's a flux-ring compass, and how does it use > light? Hi Flux-gate compasses are completely different than laser rotational accelerometers. The laser devices only detect rotation by integrating the amount of Doppler shift caused by rotating the ring. This is subject to drift because it is integrating. Still, because of the short wavelength of light and the fact that they pass the light several times in a loop, these can run for days with almost no drift. Flux-gate compasses depend on magnetic fields. They can be fooled by magnets just like a regular compass. The way that they work is to have two perpendicular windings over ( but not through ) a toroidal core. There is also a winding in the normal manner through the core. The way it works it that one builds a field in the inner winding until the core saturates. Since the field is even around the core, there is no coupling to the two coils that are perpendicular over the core. When the coil saturates, it is as though the core is no longer magnetic. The earths field lines that were distorted and pulled into the core are now released. The problem is that this happened slowly so the two coils didn't see much of this change in field. The current in the inner coil is cut off quickly ( usually the spike is dumped in to a zener diode of a high voltage ). The earths magnetic field suddenly see a magnetic material. It snaps into the core but in order to do so, the field lines must cross the windings of the two perpendicular sense coils. The orientation of north is related to the vector sum of the pulses generated in these two sense windings. Still, when space craft fly, they keep track of direction using mechanical gyroscopes. So, what do you know? Dwight From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 7 20:24:46 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Here's one for the DEC engineers Message-ID: <00df01c0492c$f246d190$ba789a8d@ajp166> From: Chuck McManis >Well, I've got to give a toast to the folks in DEC Engineering, it may be >that they had to deal with Field Circus screwing things up, but I for one >really appreciate that DEC used keyed connectors, and appropriate cables, >and sturdy hardware. I'm also glad that whomever designed the TQK70 did so >such that plugging it in backwards in the Q-bus does it no apparent harm. I Thank you from myself and all the other CSSE engineers. Those little details were part of requirements for serviceability that came from the Field Service side of the house and implemented in best technology by engineering. Brief DEC history about the group that was often known as product prevention. Customer Support Systems Engineering (CSSE) was an engineering arm that came into being back in the late 70s when DEC started to see more volume then quality. One of the first processes created by Field Circus was FA&T (factory assemble and test) was the starting point. The field and FA&T feedback went far in the 80s to eliminate the unreachable screws, scope required to setup, special tools and too many similar connectors. Allison From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Nov 7 20:45:01 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Vax message as system locks up In-Reply-To: <3A08B912.94BD1BC9@home.net>; from ncherry@home.net on Tue, Nov 07, 2000 at 09:23:14PM -0500 References: <3A08B912.94BD1BC9@home.net> Message-ID: <20001107204501.Z13566@mrbill.net> On Tue, Nov 07, 2000 at 09:23:14PM -0500, Neil Cherry wrote: > A while back I posted a message and mentioned a problem with the drives > unmounting. Well here is the message: > %SYSTEM-I-MOUNTVER, R7VEFG$DIA0: is offline. Mount verification in progress. > After that I get a red line on the drive indicator and anything I on the > console never returns. > Any ideas? I had this problem when trying to use a Plextor 12x SCSI CD-ROm to install VMS, as well as a Sony CD-ROM. When I went and got a real genuine DEC RRD43, the problem went away. Check your SCSI devices. Bill -- Bill Bradford KD5LQR - Austin, TX mrbill@sunhelp.org mrbill@mrbill.net From ncherry at home.net Tue Nov 7 21:14:08 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Vax message as system locks up References: <3A08B912.94BD1BC9@home.net> <20001107204501.Z13566@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <3A08C500.B1B53B09@home.net> Bill Bradford wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 07, 2000 at 09:23:14PM -0500, Neil Cherry wrote: > > A while back I posted a message and mentioned a problem with the drives > > unmounting. Well here is the message: > > %SYSTEM-I-MOUNTVER, R7VEFG$DIA0: is offline. Mount verification in progress. > > After that I get a red line on the drive indicator and anything I on the > > console never returns. > > Any ideas? > > I had this problem when trying to use a Plextor 12x SCSI CD-ROm to > install VMS, as well as a Sony CD-ROM. When I went and got a real genuine > DEC RRD43, the problem went away. Check your SCSI devices. It better be a real DEC drive, it came from DEC (purchased) for our lab. They've been sitting unused (unloved :-) and I decided to adopt them. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Nov 7 21:24:23 2000 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics In-Reply-To: <20001108001703.21642.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 8 Nov 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > John Lawson wrote: > > ALSO: Aircraft compasses are generally of the flux-gate or flux-ring [snip] > > You've got me very curious. I'm familiar with flux-gate compasses which > do not use light, and with laser ring gyros which do (but, of course, > [snip] You'd think after five months in India I'd get over the jet lag. ;] Sorry for fluxing this up. I of course *meant* laser-ring gyrocompass. But this has drifted off the edge of the topic horizon, and folks might have little patience left for it. Private e-mails on the subject are requested hereafter, if anyone wishes. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ObClassiccmp: On the Hybrid Computer topic - since they are now quite rare, not many of Us are familiar with just what the word 'Analog' refers to when speaking of computing, thus the confusion over the role of the active devices, especially tubes (valves). Actually it's pretty simple: Digital computers operate strictly on numbers, and numbers alone. The allowed states in a digital machine are 1/0, on/off, yes/no, asserted/negated, etc. We then use patterns of these on/off states to stand for numbers, characters, quantities, what have you. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here. On The Other Hand: Analog computing devices use varying and measurable physical quantities to represent the data... i.e. if you need to know how much a 10-gallon tank weighs having 3 gallons initially and adding 4 gallons, you set up devices (usually 'Operational Amplifiers') whose parameters are related (are analogs of) these quantities... One Opamp can have it's initial quantity at 3 volts for the starting gallons, another can have a circuit configured to multiply the 'gallons' voltage by the factor required to turn 'gallons of water' into 'pounds', and a third can add the sum of these (plus, say, a fixed voltage of 40.5 volts to represent the dry weight of the tank itself) and direct the output to a meter, which reads from 0 -> 100 volts, but which we calibrate in "pounds". Now, having set up these amplifiers, we can use a knob with voltage on it to 'fill' the tank, and watch the resulting 'weight' change on the meter, in real time. This may sound cumbersome today, but consider in that in the mid fifties, digital computers were very, very expensive, fairly rare, and every single problem required much analysis and coding, and the expense of the CPU Time alone was huge. BUT: any electrical engineer worth his/her diploma could easily set up the equations to model all but the most difficult of simulations, and with most large-scale analog machines, could get meaningful and accurate results in a few hours or days, as opposed to the well-known "code your problem, punch your cards, submit your deck, wait for your print-out, debug your code, re-punch your cards, submit your deck....repeat, repeat, repeat..." Not to mention that analog circuit design was fully mature at that point, and analog computers are relatively simple to design and construct, having no 'specialized' devices like memory elements, digital mass storage devices, electromechanical I/O, etc. BTW: at least one list member with whom I corresponded was engaged in building his own modern analog computer, using today's advanced components. I wonder how that worked out? I used mine, and a friend uses his several large analog machines, in conjunction with our older electronic music synthesizers, to generate new and strange sounds based on obscure mathematical regimes... Cheers John PS: Anyone *really* interested in getting into analog computing might do well to consider scarfing up a Heathkit EC-1 when possible.. they are simple, small and portable, and have easily replaceable tubes, and having (IIRC) 9 opamps, one can get quite elaborate with them. From dcoward at pressstart.com Tue Nov 7 21:49:29 2000 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Electra sim computer (was: Re: "Basics of Analog Computers" book) Message-ID: <4.1.20001107192656.020e6bc0@mail.pressstart.com> "Mark Gregory" said: > If the captions on the pictures (very nice, by the way) are correct, this Yes, they are terrific. Gene, tell us where this simulator is located. > simulator isn't an analog computer at all by the definition I'm familiar > with. It uses tubes and relays, which are discrete digital components Well others here have covered your misconception about tubes. But relays are also an important part of an analog computer. Relays can be used to connect and disconnect special circuits like weather, hazards, malfunctions. Relays are also used on every integrator to set that integrator back to it's initial conditions when the computer is reset. What tells me that it's analog is: * The fact that it has to stablize for 7 days * The main output is plotting boards * All of the panel meters I see * The operator's panel is just switches and knobs * "relay/tube" modules are just too big to be logic circuits. * Aircraft simulators need the true parallel processing of an analog computer. (Up until the early 70's) * I really don't see anything that suggests digital components anywhere in these pictures. Thanks for the pictures Gene. Where I work in Sunnyvale is right on the approach for NAS Moffett field. P3s fly over all the time. --Doug =================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr Software Engineer mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Visit the new Analog Computer Museum and History Center at http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog =================================================== From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 7 21:56:34 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Vax message as system locks up Message-ID: <011601c04939$53449160$ba789a8d@ajp166> From: Bill Bradford >> %SYSTEM-I-MOUNTVER, R7VEFG$DIA0: is offline. Mount verification in progress. >> After that I get a red line on the drive indicator and anything I on the >> console never returns. >> Any ideas? I have used varios drives that can handle the 512byte sectoring and they work fine. I have two Tohsiba XM3201B and a XM3501B that works fine for VMS. So there are other drives that do work. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 7 22:06:48 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics Message-ID: <011701c04939$54e744e0$ba789a8d@ajp166> From: John Lawson >meter, in real time. This may sound cumbersome today, but consider in >that in the mid fifties, digital computers were very, very expensive, >fairly rare, and every single problem required much analysis and coding, It would be 1979 before there was DSP fast enough to do a FIR filter digially for audio frequencies, Analog had been doing that for 30+ years. > PS: Anyone *really* interested in getting into analog computing might do >well to consider scarfing up a Heathkit EC-1 when possible.. they are >simple, small and portable, and have easily replaceable tubes, and having >(IIRC) 9 opamps, one can get quite elaborate with them. One could duplicate it using modern analog opamps and still solve the same problems. The best one I remember solved a bouncing ball, for varying gravity and rebound rates and "drew it" on an O'scope face. It was a Popular Electronics (maybe RE) design. Still very buildable. It's often forgotten that there were different op-amp designs that allowed things like four quadrant multiplcation, LOG and ANTILOG amps, CLIPPING, SUM, DIFFERNCE, ABSOLUTE VALUE when combined allow solutions of great speed with good accuracy. Allison From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 7 22:22:14 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Electra sim computer (was: Re: "Basics of Analog Computers" book) In-Reply-To: <4.1.20001107192656.020e6bc0@mail.pressstart.com> Message-ID: > "Mark Gregory" said: > > If the captions on the pictures (very nice, by the way) are correct, this > > Yes, they are terrific. Gene, tell us where this simulator is located. > It's at Simulator Training, Inc. in SeaTac. So far, only one of the listmembers here have found the other jewels in the collection (that I know of). See http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/BehindTheScenes. > Thanks for the pictures Gene. Where I work in Sunnyvale is right on the > approach for NAS Moffett field. P3s fly over all the time. You're quite welcome. I think I'll take this moment to brag about _my_ baby. :) http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/f15images.html - parts donations or offers welcome! :) g. From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Nov 7 23:09:39 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics In-Reply-To: <011701c04939$54e744e0$ba789a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20001108000939.00f6c600@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 11:06 PM 11/7/00 -0500, you wrote: >It would be 1979 before there was DSP fast enough to do a FIR filter >digially for audio frequencies, Analog had been doing that for 30+ years. > >One could duplicate it using modern analog opamps and still solve the >same problems. The best one I remember solved a bouncing ball, for >varying gravity and rebound rates and "drew it" on an O'scope face. >It was a Popular Electronics (maybe RE) design. Still very buildable. > >It's often forgotten that there were different op-amp designs that >allowed >things like four quadrant multiplcation, LOG and ANTILOG amps, CLIPPING, >SUM, DIFFERNCE, ABSOLUTE VALUE when combined allow solutions >of great speed with good accuracy. Ever since the late 60's, very large simulations of power grids were being performed on analog computers for the purposes of contingency analysis and dynamic stability assessment. These special-purpose analog computers filled entired rooms and sometimes had thousands of dynamic states (one integrator per dynamic state). Back in 1992, I remember that I was running a simulation of a large power system on a Sparcstation IPX with 32MB or RAM. The model had several thousand states, and, with all of the storage overhead, the machine was swapping frantically for a couple of days while the simulation ran. An older faculty member saw that, and told me that he was solving problems of that size in one morning in the 60's. Most of the work involved setting the initial conditions and making sure that several dozen plotters had enough paper to print all of the results :-) . The actual simulation ran in just a few minutes. Carlos. >Allison > > From donm at cts.com Tue Nov 7 23:25:21 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: "Basics of Analog Computers" book In-Reply-To: <20001107223243Z433181-145+51@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Mark Green wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Mark Green" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 2:20 PM > > Subject: Re: "Basics of Analog Computers" book > > > > > > The last time I looked tubes were analogue devices. One of their > > > main uses is as amplifiers, which is definitely an analogue function. > > > If I remember correctly, one of the main problems with early tube > > > computers (1940s and 1950s), was actually getting the tubes to behave > > > like digital devices. > > > > > > > Point taken on the nature of tubes, but they were primarily used in > > computers as bipolar devices, weren't they? The fact that a computer > > contains analogue devices doesn't make it an analogue computer. > > > > Depends. In the 1940s and 1950s they were used in both analogue > and digital computers. After the early 1960s, tubes were replaced > by transistors in digital computers (at least in North America), but > they were still used in analogue computers. In terms of pure numbers, > analogue computers greatly out numbered digital computers until some > point in the 1960s. In the simulation area, digital computers didn't > become cost effective for many applications until around 1970, particularly > those requiring real-time. So, for early computers the use of tubes > wasn't a good indication of whether the computer was analogue or > digital. In addition, for real time simulation digital machines of that generation were wholly (too strong?) inadewuate to the task. In particular, I recall reading about a '60ish project by one of Britain's Formula One makers to use a computer to control a F1-machine driving around an actual circuit in lieu of the driver. As I recall the story, it did not make it beyond the second turn. However, an analogue computer handled the task quite well. Apocryphal? ??? - don Sounds like something Chapman might have done. Or BRM? > -- > Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca > McCalla Professor (780) 492-4584 > Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) > University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada > From gregorym at cadvision.com Wed Nov 8 00:13:06 2000 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: "Basics of Analog Computers" book References: Message-ID: <000a01c0494b$0852e8c0$0100a8c0@hal90002> Well this has certainly been an informative (and eye-opening) thread for me. I had no idea that analogue computers were as common and as long-lived as they were. In the only "History of Computation" course that was included in my Comp Sci program, analogue computers were treated only incidentally, with the implication that development ceased with the advent of digital computers (whether electro-mechanical or electronic) in the mid 1940s. In that course and in other computing histories I've read, analogue computers seem to be an unfairly neglected topic. Thanks to all. Mark From blergh at dds.nl Wed Nov 8 02:18:14 2000 From: blergh at dds.nl (ClassicCmp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: DG Nova 4 Message-ID: <20001108091814.A15552@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Hello people, I'm currently seeking information on Data General's Nova line of minicomputers. I saved a Nova 4 yesterday, and since I'm unfamiliar with DG hardware I have a few questions. Is the the Nova 4 bus backwards compatible with the bus on the Nova 3 (i.e. can I pull boards from the 4 and put them in the 3) ? When I remove cards from the backplane, do I have to insert something like a "continuity card" ? The system was in a custom "Medtronic" cabinet, and together with the CPU I got a few I/O boxes which might be useless without the medical equipment. I pulled one of the boards from I/O box 1, and I hope somebody can identify it: DMA0 PC BD 207 005-00 C ASSEMBLY 877-121-00 MDA0048-87 (handwritten) CC board, sevice, sys zaak The boards in the I/O boxes look just like the ones used in the CPU, same handles, same bus connector, but they're shorter. Furthermore, I'm looking for a description or picture of the back of the CPU box, since I suspect something is missing on the right side of mine. Last but not least, a description or picture of the top of a Perkin Elmer ST-2222 diskdrive would also be greatly appreciated (is there supposed to be a lid ?). Sincerely, Erik. From ip500 at home.com Wed Nov 8 07:31:47 2000 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: DG Nova 4 References: <20001108091814.A15552@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3A0955C3.9E0D2C84@home.com> Hi Erik, Take a look at: http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum/machines/Nova4.html Lots of good info and it answers your question... the boards are NOT backward compatable with the 3. Regards, Craig ClassicCmp wrote: > > Hello people, > > I'm currently seeking information on Data General's Nova line of > minicomputers. > > I saved a Nova 4 yesterday, and since I'm unfamiliar with DG > hardware I have a few questions. > > Is the the Nova 4 bus backwards compatible with the bus on the > Nova 3 (i.e. can I pull boards from the 4 and put them in the 3) ? > > When I remove cards from the backplane, do I have to insert > something like a "continuity card" ? > > The system was in a custom "Medtronic" cabinet, and together with > the CPU I got a few I/O boxes which might be useless without the > medical equipment. > > I pulled one of the boards from I/O box 1, and I hope somebody can > identify it: > > DMA0 > > PC BD 207 005-00 C > > ASSEMBLY 877-121-00 MDA0048-87 > > (handwritten) CC board, sevice, sys zaak > > The boards in the I/O boxes look just like the ones used in the CPU, > same handles, same bus connector, but they're shorter. > > Furthermore, I'm looking for a description or picture of the back > of the CPU box, since I suspect something is missing on the right > side of mine. > > Last but not least, a description or picture of the top of a Perkin > Elmer ST-2222 diskdrive would also be greatly appreciated (is there > supposed to be a lid ?). > > Sincerely, > Erik. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Nov 8 07:38:14 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: PDP-10 Emulator (was: Re: MULTICS Installation, Halifax) In-Reply-To: <20001108004414.21894.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <13593888218.19.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [No console?] I meant console as in lights and switches for examining and depositing memory, etc. [NIA20] I have TOPS-20 6-series (I forget which one), and it doesn't seem to like the NIA. Have you gotten it to work? [Tape support] Well, that's about all you can do. In my copy at least. Tapes are read-only, and there's no blocking information, you have to stip all that out. [One RP06] If it lets you have more, I haven't found how to enable them yet. ------- From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Nov 8 08:08:36 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Here's one for the DEC engineers In-Reply-To: <00df01c0492c$f246d190$ba789a8d@ajp166> from ajp166 at "Nov 7, 2000 09:24:46 pm" Message-ID: <200011081408.eA8E8bX08368@bg-tc-ppp816.monmouth.com> > From: Chuck McManis > > > >Well, I've got to give a toast to the folks in DEC Engineering, it may > be > >that they had to deal with Field Circus screwing things up, but I for > one > >really appreciate that DEC used keyed connectors, and appropriate > cables, > >and sturdy hardware. I'm also glad that whomever designed the TQK70 did > so > >such that plugging it in backwards in the Q-bus does it no apparent > harm. I > > > Thank you from myself and all the other CSSE engineers. Those little > details > were part of requirements for serviceability that came from the Field > Service > side of the house and implemented in best technology by engineering. > > Allison The only problem with CSSE is they made it so easy to work on the DEC stuff Field Service management began hiring the clueless to work cheap and they lost a lot of the clued folks to people who changed the board with the RED led lit. One day they worked on VT220's the next they were promoted to your VAX cluster! DEC's designs were among the most maintainable and reliable. Of all the companies I've worked for, only IBM had stuff as well designed for maintainance and with reliable, well designed, field modifyable diagnostis. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Nov 8 08:11:40 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Somewhat OT: Overseas Shipping In-Reply-To: References: <015101c048ee$58ccb180$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3A096D2C.5441.27CCAA66@localhost> > I've got someone in the UK that has a piece of vintage electronic > equipment that I need shipped to me. I'm not in a particular hurry to get > it...it doesn't need to be a 'next day', or even 'next week' type shipment. > The major priorities are finding a carrier that: > A) Isn't likely to lose the item > B) Won't destroy it in handling (assuming it is very well packed) > C) Won't cost me an arm and a leg > D) Can deliver the parcel to my home > E) Can handle a parcel weighing about 40 pounds > Given these parameters, any suggestions of a carrier? I've heard > some say that DHL is a good way to go, but I've also recently seem > some very sour comments regarding DHL here. > Any suggestions are welcomed and appreciated. A) No matter what carrier, they are more or less the same - in case of USA and Germany I trust USPS/Deutsch Post most, and for England I assume Royal Mail is reliable. B) If it is packes well, no problem with any service, otherise it's always your risk C) Royal Mail is known to be one of the most expensive services in Europe, but the 'privat' agancies are even more costly. D) USPS ? E) Any service. Personaly I'd suggest you check the Royal Mail web site. Servus hans -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Nov 8 08:18:27 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: An article on the ZX-81 kits still being sold in the US In-Reply-To: <10011080113.ZM24177@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: "Hans Franke" "Re: An article on the ZX-81 kits still being sold in the US" (Nov 7, 16:09) Message-ID: <3A096EC3.10462.27D2DF92@localhost> > On Nov 7, 16:09, Hans Franke wrote: > > Not completely. There _are_ 2 KB kits around - as you may remember, > > the ZX81 board was to be used with either two 2114 (1KB)or one > > 6116(2KB). > Not exactly; originally, it was a 2 x 2114 or 1 x 4118. Most UK ZX81s have > a 4118, though some users did replace the 4118 with a 6116. I've never > seen one originally fitted with a 6116, only upgrades (and I've seen a lot > of ZX81s -- the workshop I was in at the time used to fix them by the > bucketload). I think I have to specify my statement 'around' ment 'world wide'. AFAIR in South America Sinclair switched soon for 2KB configurations to compete with a vast field of clones. In Germany (and as I assume from previous information and your lines) only 1 KB units and kits have been sold - I think this is also true for most other parts of Europe (anybody to correct me from Spain or Portugal ?). Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 8 09:51:31 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Somewhat OT: Overseas Shipping In-Reply-To: <3A096D2C.5441.27CCAA66@localhost> References: <015101c048ee$58ccb180$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001108105131.3bf76822@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 03:11 PM 11/8/00 +0100, Hans wrote: > >D) USPS ? The US Postal Servive. What used to be our offical post office. They're now a semi-private company. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 8 09:49:04 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Here's one for the DEC engineers In-Reply-To: <200011081408.eA8E8bX08368@bg-tc-ppp816.monmouth.com> References: <00df01c0492c$f246d190$ba789a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001108104904.3bf70018@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:08 AM 11/8/00 -0500, Bill wrote: >> From: Chuck McManis >> >> >> >Well, I've got to give a toast to the folks in DEC Engineering, it may >> be >> >that they had to deal with Field Circus screwing things up, but I for >> one >> >really appreciate that DEC used keyed connectors, and appropriate >> cables, >> >and sturdy hardware. I'm also glad that whomever designed the TQK70 did >> so >> >such that plugging it in backwards in the Q-bus does it no apparent >> harm. I >> >> >> Thank you from myself and all the other CSSE engineers. Those little >> details >> were part of requirements for serviceability that came from the Field >> Service >> side of the house and implemented in best technology by engineering. >> >> Allison > >The only problem with CSSE is they made it so easy to work on the DEC >stuff Field Service management began hiring the clueless to work cheap >and they lost a lot of the clued folks to people who changed the board >with the RED led lit. One day they worked on VT220's the next they >were promoted to your VAX cluster! > >DEC's designs were among the most maintainable and reliable. >Of all the companies I've worked for, only IBM had stuff as well >designed for maintainance and with reliable, well designed, field >modifyable diagnostis. > > I used to work for Burroughs and I wish I could say that their stuff was built as well but I can't. IMO IBM and DEC put a lot of extra effort into making their systems easy to work on because most systems weren't sold but only leased to the user's and most user's had maintenance contracts on them so it was in IBM's and DEC's best interest to make the stuff fast and easy to repair since it had a direct effect on their profit. You're right about working on VAX clusters one day and VT-220 the next. Burroughs, and presumably the others, assigned personel to geogrphic areas and you were expected to fix everything in that area regardless of what it was. I worked for Borroughs for two years and worked on everything from mechanical 100 key adders to some of the first electronic calculators to B1700s and everything in between. Joe From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Nov 8 08:53:24 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Here's one for the DEC engineers References: <200011081408.eA8E8bX08368@bg-tc-ppp816.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3A0968E4.4E952B7@idirect.com> >Bill Pechter wrote: > The only problem with CSSE is they made it so easy to work on the DEC > stuff Field Service management began hiring the clueless to work cheap > and they lost a lot of the clued folks to people who changed the board > with the RED led lit. One day they worked on VT220's the next they > were promoted to your VAX cluster! Jerome Fine replies: Was high voltage a problem working inside a VAX cluster? If not, then from what I have heard, that may have been a demotion. I was told that while working on an 11/34A, one fellow from DEC Field Circus blew all the boards in the backplane when he removed the memory - seems that he forgot to turn off the power!! I realize that most DEC techs were not as clueless as this example (since even I know that the power must be turn off - and I have rarely forgotten to do so - haha), but it might be best to not assume what all your fellows were able to do - or at least management thought they could do. > DEC's designs were among the most maintainable and reliable. > Of all the companies I've worked for, only IBM had stuff as well > designed for maintainance and with reliable, well designed, field > modifyable diagnostis. This I do agree with - although I can't vouch for the IBM side. I often complained about the tension on an IBM 029 keypunch. I was in the habit of holding either one card drum or the other to either remove or insert an extra character in the card - remember when we used to program with a card deck that took 24 hours to be returned? If the tension was correct, it could be done with either drum. On occasion when I complained, the tech refused to accept my assertion that it could be done and therefore that removing or inserting a character was a valid test. Naturally, since the tech knew more than I did, he sometimes refused to "fix" the key punch. At that point, depending on how desperate I was (if there was another keypunch around), I just went along or "insisted" that the tension on the key punch be brought up to "normal" specifications. I could never understand why a tech would insist that the tension was OK when it obviously was not just because I wanted to do something non-standard 0.01% of the time (which would obviously not hurt the keypunch if done so rarely), especially when 99% of all keypunches could do that operation since almost all had the tension set correctly. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Nov 8 09:10:13 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Somewhat OT: Overseas Shipping In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001108105131.3bf76822@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3A096D2C.5441.27CCAA66@localhost> Message-ID: <3A097AE5.13261.280245AA@localhost> > At 03:11 PM 11/8/00 +0100, Hans wrote: > >D) USPS ? > The US Postal Servive. What used to be our offical post office. They're > now a semi-private company. I know, his question was which service will deliver to his home. Gruss H. P.S.: in the direction US to Germany (Europe) I pfrefer USPS over _all_ other services - more reliable and less expensive - thats my experience of some 14 years shiping stuff across the pond. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Nov 8 09:22:06 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Somewhat OT: Overseas Shipping In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001108105131.3bf76822@mailhost.intellistar.net> from Joe at "Nov 8, 0 10:51:31 am" Message-ID: <200011081522.HAA14424@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > The US Postal Servive. What used to be our offical post office. They're > now a semi-private company. And much better for it, too. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- There's a sucker born every minute. -- P. T. Barnum ------------------------ From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Nov 8 09:41:58 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: Fibre Channel-related items up for grabs Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001108093529.0316fe30@pc> I got these items in a batch of other surplus items and I'm trying to determine their use or value. If anyone on this list is interested, please send a note, or off to eBay they go. See http://www.threedee.com/optics/ for pictures and more detailed descriptions. One is a HP A3406A Fibre Channel Host Adapter. I wasn't able to find this part number on HP/Aligent's web site, and it produced few other web hits. This a HP-HSC card, as used in today's K-series of servers. It can sustain 1/4 gigabit rates. Another item is a HP 83441B SONET SDH reference receiver. Is this used in testing very high speed optical networking equipment? It supports 622 Mbps SONET OC-12 and SDH and STM-4. It has fiber input on one end and RF output on the other. Another interesting item is a 28-pin DIP that appears to be a 20 mw semiconductor laser. This is an XMT1300-1.2, an optical driver for Fibre Channel (FC-0). An optical fiber emerges from one end and terminates in a standard pigtail fiber connector. It is a 20 milliwatt, Class 3b semiconductor laser, probably GaAs, centered at 1300 nm. It was made in 1991, so I felt close enough to the 10-year rule to post. :-) It was made by BT&D Technologies (British Telecom + Dupont) in 1991, now part of Agilent Technologies, a Hewlett-Packard company. It is one of their "logic to light" transmitters. - John From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Wed Nov 8 09:50:29 2000 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: DG Nova 4 References: <20001108091814.A15552@stronghold.xs4all.nl> <3A0955C3.9E0D2C84@home.com> Message-ID: <004101c0499b$9f29f720$05247452@dellhare> G'day Erik - Congratulations on your Nova 4 "save"! Having worked with DG equipment for about 31+ years here are some "Quick answers": The Nova 4 and and Nova 3 CPU cards are not compatible, but most of the I/O cards are. There are two main I/O daisey chain signals on a standard Nova/Eclipse backplane - interrupt priority in/out and data channel request in/out - and they usually should be jumpered across unused slots if other I/O cards exist higher in the chassis. Those don't sound like standard DG I/O card numbers: I believe that the DG board part numbers usually start with 005-xxxx-xx. I would have to research that. DG put its 15" x 15" card numbers along the "front" reinforcement bar, that part of the card just opposite the finger contacts and directly between the two extraction handles. There were usually a series of three numbers on the bar. The Nova 4 came in two standard physical configurations and sold/marketed as three subprocessor "types" (Nova 4/C, 4/S and 4/X) - each different than the others only in four (4) PROM chips. There was quite an aftermarket for PROM burner as these four chips cost a minimum of $1,500 from DG (when $1,500 was 'real' money). There is a picture of the front of the Nova 4 at http://www.SimuLogics.com/nostalgia.htm. BTW, the DG Eclipse S/140 and subsequent S/280 were virtually identical pieces of hardware since they used the same microprogramming core, only PROM was different. They also sold ERCC memory with the Eclipse as a market positioning strategy (i.e. maximum client $ extraction mechanism). BTW, Medtronics still uses Nova derivitives called "Strobe Hawk" boards which are Nova-like co-processors that fit into a PC's ISA slot. The Nova on the board does all the processing and then requestion all I/O through a TSR on the PC (egad!). We are currently working with Medtronic to replace their hardware with our commercial software product (ReNOVAte) as described at www.SimuLogics.com. A free version of our Nova emulator that is written in Java is also available at that site. We are also trying to preserve all DG 16-bit software, hardware and documentation and are actively working with EMC, DG, TLC and other companies in this respect. And yes, Carl Friend is an exellent [re]source of additional information Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "ip500" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 6:31 AM Subject: Re: DG Nova 4 > Hi Erik, > Take a look at: > > http://www.ultranet.com/~crfriend/museum/machines/Nova4.html > > Lots of good info and it answers your question... the boards are NOT > backward compatable with the 3. > Regards, Craig > > > ClassicCmp wrote: > > > > Hello people, > > > > I'm currently seeking information on Data General's Nova line of > > minicomputers. > > > > I saved a Nova 4 yesterday, and since I'm unfamiliar with DG > > hardware I have a few questions. > > > > Is the the Nova 4 bus backwards compatible with the bus on the > > Nova 3 (i.e. can I pull boards from the 4 and put them in the 3) ? > > > > When I remove cards from the backplane, do I have to insert > > something like a "continuity card" ? > > > > The system was in a custom "Medtronic" cabinet, and together with > > the CPU I got a few I/O boxes which might be useless without the > > medical equipment. > > > > I pulled one of the boards from I/O box 1, and I hope somebody can > > identify it: > > > > DMA0 > > > > PC BD 207 005-00 C > > > > ASSEMBLY 877-121-00 MDA0048-87 > > > > (handwritten) CC board, sevice, sys zaak > > > > The boards in the I/O boxes look just like the ones used in the CPU, > > same handles, same bus connector, but they're shorter. > > > > Furthermore, I'm looking for a description or picture of the back > > of the CPU box, since I suspect something is missing on the right > > side of mine. > > > > Last but not least, a description or picture of the top of a Perkin > > Elmer ST-2222 diskdrive would also be greatly appreciated (is there > > supposed to be a lid ?). > > > > Sincerely, > > Erik. From sumeetsuri at psu.edu Wed Nov 8 13:51:26 2000 From: sumeetsuri at psu.edu (Sumeet Suri) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: HP DraftMaster I Message-ID: Hi guys, I am sure I am very late in your discussion. Right now I am using the HP 9872 plotter and I need another piece. Could u tell me where I can find a HP 9872 plotter. Thanks a lot Sumeet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001108/46d8e811/attachment.html From yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt Wed Nov 8 10:57:02 2000 From: yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt (Rodrigo Ventura) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:40 2005 Subject: reading a 9-track tape Message-ID: Hi. Can anyone read a 9-track tape? I have a tape I'd like to read, but I have no tape drive for those tapes. I was wondering if anyone in europe could read it for me. Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and PhD Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 From enrico.badella at softstar.it Wed Nov 8 11:38:18 2000 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: reading a 9-track tape References: Message-ID: <3A098F8A.9769C516@softstar.it> Rodrigo Ventura wrote: > > Hi. Can anyone read a 9-track tape? I have a tape I'd like to > read, but I have no tape drive for those tapes. I was wondering if > anyone in europe could read it for me. I'm in Italy and can read 9 track tapes on a VMS box. e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 8 10:49:08 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Electra sim computer (was: Re: "Basics of Analog Computers" book) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Gene Buckle wrote: > You're quite welcome. I think I'll take this moment to brag about _my_ > baby. :) http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/f15images.html - parts donations or > offers welcome! :) Would anyone know where an intact F14A might be located that would be accessible by the public? The computer that controlled it contains a pre-Intel microprocessor (lacking an on-chip program counter :) I would love to get my hands on one (the computer), or at least see it in its native environment. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 8 12:08:47 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Electra sim computer (was: Re: "Basics of Analog Computers" book) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Would anyone know where an intact F14A might be located that would be > accessible by the public? The computer that controlled it contains a > pre-Intel microprocessor (lacking an on-chip program counter :) > The Tillamook Naval Air Station Museum in Tillamook, OR has one. I don't know if they'd let you go poking about in the avionics bays though. > I would love to get my hands on one (the computer), or at least see it in > its native environment. The F-15C (and possibly the E) has an ECM computer installed that uses the Motorola 6800 as the CPU. What sucks is that there is a far more powerful and sophisticated unit available, but no one wants to pony up the money for the required test and evaluation programs. g. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 8 13:28:51 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: PDP-10 Emulator (was: Re: MULTICS Installation, Halifax) In-Reply-To: <13593888218.19.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <13593888218.19.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <20001108192851.1138.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I have TOPS-20 6-series (I forget which one), and it doesn't seem to like the > NIA. Have you gotten it to work? Yes, it works fine. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 8 13:31:33 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20001108193133.1208.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Sumeet Suri" wrote: > Could u tell me where I can find a HP 9872 plotter. I've got some. Which specific model do you want (A/B/C/S/T)? Make an offer. They're heavy, so shipping will be moderately expensive. From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 8 12:56:25 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Electra sim computer (was: Re: "Basics of Analog Computers" book) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Gene Buckle wrote: > The F-15C (and possibly the E) has an ECM computer installed that uses the > Motorola 6800 as the CPU. What sucks is that there is a far more powerful > and sophisticated unit available, but no one wants to pony up the money > for the required test and evaluation programs. It doesn't surprise me for two reasons: 1) it would probably cost a lot of time and money to do so and 2) if it is not broken, please do not attempt repairs. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 8 14:30:17 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Electra sim computer (was: Re: "Basics of Analog Computers" book) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > The F-15C (and possibly the E) has an ECM computer installed that uses the > > Motorola 6800 as the CPU. What sucks is that there is a far more powerful > > and sophisticated unit available, but no one wants to pony up the money > > for the required test and evaluation programs. > > It doesn't surprise me for two reasons: 1) it would probably cost a lot of > time and money to do so and 2) if it is not broken, please do not attempt > repairs. > The test & eval program was guessed at $600,000 to perform. I think what bugs me is that the proposed new computer would give the TEWS gear an order of magnitude jump in capability. It's a COTS design as well so the per unit cost wouldn't be that much. g. From bill_r at inetnebr.com Wed Nov 8 15:07:20 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Memorex/Termiflex One-handed terminal? Message-ID: Our mainframe guys recently got rid of some big hard drive chassis, and in the process of cleaning up they were going to thow away (!) a couple of little Memorex/Termiflex one-handed terminals that I've lusted after ever since I saw the service engineer using them. I think they're a 1 or 2-line LED dot-matrix display, and they have some form of "chording" keyboard on the front. They terminate in a 9 pin female DIN-like connector with some kind of twist-lock. I believe they're RS-232, but was wondering if anyone could supply a pinout. They also came with a cable with the same connector (also female) on one end and a male DB-25 on the other, which is marked "RS-232 Modem Interface". I'm guessing that you could plug in either one of these terminals or a modem to the same connector on the disk controller. I can always figure out the pin-out from that cable and give it a try, but I'd like to make sure I'm not missing something vital (like a TTL-to-RS232 adapter) that they might require, before I hook one up wrong and fry it. (I know, I could open one of them up and see what the cable connects to, but I'm being lazy. Besides, this way I get to brag about them... ;-) Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com Home of Fun with Molten Metal, technological oddities, and the original COSMAC Elf computer simulator! From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 8 16:20:31 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Electra sim computer (was: Re: "Basics of Analog Computers" book) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001108172031.3bbfea80@mailhost.intellistar.net> >On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> You're quite welcome. I think I'll take this moment to brag about _my_ >> baby. :) http://deltasoft.fife.wa.us/f15images.html - parts donations or >> offers welcome! :) Gene, Damm, That's cool! It's quite a contrast to the old wagon sitting behind it. One of the local surplus company had the cockpit section of a AH-64 helicopter on a stand like that. Unfortunatly it was out behind their place and I missed it. I helped the buyer load it, he took it home to his kids. He said they really got a kick out of it. It's about 8 feet high and 12 feet long and it's now sitting in his driveway. I hate to imagine what the neighbors think! Take a look at "http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=492551831&ed=4925518 31". That's something you don't see everyday. It's a core memory unit out of an EA6B Wild Weasel. Joe From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com Wed Nov 8 15:26:21 2000 From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Amiga A500 is sold. In-Reply-To: <3A087CA7.17FF7374@vbe.com> References: <3A084252.A8335E5C@vbe.com> <3A087CA7.17FF7374@vbe.com> Message-ID: <0011081530110N.00274@Billbob_linux> All interested parties were alerted to the status of the bid this morning, and I have received no better offers. As of 3:30pm CST the A500 is now sold to a member of the list. Thanks very much to everyone who made an offer. -- Bill Layer Sales Technician +----------------------------------+ Viking Electronics, Inc. 1531 Industrial St. Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A 715.386.8861 ext. 210 +----------------------------------+ "Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century" Powered by Slackware Linux 7.1.0 From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 8 15:31:27 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Electra sim computer (was: Re: "Basics of Analog Computers" book) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001108172031.3bbfea80@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > Damm, That's cool! It's quite a contrast to the old wagon sitting behind > it. One of the local surplus company had the cockpit section of a AH-64 > helicopter on a stand like that. Unfortunatly it was out behind their place > and I missed it. I helped the buyer load it, he took it home to his kids. > He said they really got a kick out of it. It's about 8 feet high and 12 > feet long and it's now sitting in his driveway. I hate to imagine what the > neighbors think! > HEhehee. Tell him he needs to head over to http://www.simpits.org and join the mailing list. We'll show him how to make it work. :) g. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 15:51:45 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Anyone have an RK8E to sell? Message-ID: <20001108215145.69112.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> Now that I'm dusting off the RK05j for my Qbus systems, I'm interested once again in attempting to finally hook a RK drive off of a PDP-8. I have an RL8A and RK8E and a bunch of standard stuff, but I've never had the chance to round out the collection. So... are there any RK8Es that aren't nailed down? Thanks, -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 8 15:05:08 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Electra sim computer (was: Re: "Basics of Analog Computers" book) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > The F-15C (and possibly the E) has an ECM computer installed that uses the > > > Motorola 6800 as the CPU. What sucks is that there is a far more powerful > > > and sophisticated unit available, but no one wants to pony up the money > > > for the required test and evaluation programs. > > > > It doesn't surprise me for two reasons: 1) it would probably cost a lot of > > time and money to do so and 2) if it is not broken, please do not attempt > > repairs. > > > The test & eval program was guessed at $600,000 to perform. I think what > bugs me is that the proposed new computer would give the TEWS gear an > order of magnitude jump in capability. It's a COTS design as well so the > per unit cost wouldn't be that much. $600,000 for complete testing, including real-world flight testing? $600,000 seems way too low for testing a complete new computer design in a fighter jet. Maybe that was just for the software? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From blergh at dds.nl Wed Nov 8 17:25:22 2000 From: blergh at dds.nl (ClassicCmp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: DG Nova 4 In-Reply-To: <004101c0499b$9f29f720$05247452@dellhare>; from bkr@WildHareComputers.com on Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 08:50:29AM -0700 References: <20001108091814.A15552@stronghold.xs4all.nl> <3A0955C3.9E0D2C84@home.com> <004101c0499b$9f29f720$05247452@dellhare> Message-ID: <20001109002522.A15951@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Hi Bruce, On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 08:50:29AM -0700, Bruce Ray wrote: > The Nova 4 and and Nova 3 CPU cards are not compatible, but most of the I/O > cards are. I have a few devices I want to use to revive the Nova 3 that belongs to a fellow hobbyist. There's a Western peripherals mag tape controller, an SMD controller, two basic I/O boards, and a RIANDA controller. I think most of these cards are compatible with the Nova 3, but what about the RIANDA disk controller in the "MEM I/O OPT" slot ? This controller is connected to the Perkin Elmer ST-2222 diskdrive. > There are two main I/O daisey chain signals on a standard Nova/Eclipse > backplane - interrupt priority in/out and data channel request in/out - and > they usually should be jumpered across unused slots if other I/O cards exist > higher in the chassis. Right, can you tell me between what pins these signals should be jumpered ? I assume there should be just a wire-wrap between those pins ? > Those don't sound like standard DG I/O card numbers: I believe that the DG > board part numbers usually start with 005-xxxx-xx. I would have to research > that. DG put its 15" x 15" card numbers along the "front" reinforcement > bar, that part of the card just opposite the finger contacts and directly > between the two extraction handles. There were usually a series of three > numbers on the bar. Actually I am sure it's not original DG hardware. I think the board was made by a company called "DMA", with maybe an additional "C" before that. ("CDMA?") Thanks to you and Craig for the additional information. Sincerely, Erik. From ip500 at home.com Wed Nov 8 17:50:13 2000 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: HP 35401A Autoloader Tape Drive?? Message-ID: <3A09E6B5.40D55FA6@home.com> This should just make the 10 year rule...it had a service sticker on it from 1988. Cool, robotic magazine fed tape drive that holds 8 of the DC600A 1/4" tape cassettes and autofeeds them into the drive. All of my old HP reference stuff lists mass storage gear under 79xx series rather than this 35401A business Anyone have any data on this beast? Catalog sheet or tech sheet would be ideal. It talks to the outside world via HPIB cable. Thanks, Craig From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 8 17:42:43 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Electra sim computer (was: Re: "Basics of Analog Computers" book) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > $600,000 for complete testing, including real-world flight testing? > $600,000 seems way too low for testing a complete new computer design in a > fighter jet. Maybe that was just for the software? I think it was just for the computer itself, and not installed in the aircraft. g. From lgwalker at look.ca Wed Nov 8 18:09:27 2000 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Pal and NTSC Message-ID: <3A09A4E7.18841.DCC3349@localhost> I have an old famicon game system that is PAL-compliant. Other than a PAL/NTSC converter or PAL TV is there any way of hooking this up. ? I do have a kaleidoscopic collection of monitors as well as several VCR tape decks and a JDH Videomate external VGA/TV adapter which allows me to use my NEC multisync as an all- purpose viewer. It has an H-Phase pot whose response on the monitor is a shift to the side of the display and otherwise not causing any picture distortion. I recall on my Atari there were programs that shifted from 60mhz to 50mhz and allowed you to play PAL formatted games, but in this case there is no computer intervention with the JDH. It is a straight-thru switch. I don't consider this OT since the PAL/NTSC is a problem for all collectors who are internationally-connected in this media. ciao larry Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 8 18:39:48 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics Message-ID: <001f01c049e5$a767f3c0$3a779a8d@ajp166> >Ever since the late 60's, very large simulations of power >grids were being performed on analog computers for the purposes of >contingency analysis and dynamic stability assessment. These >special-purpose analog computers filled entired rooms and sometimes >had thousands of dynamic states (one integrator per dynamic state). Exactly! An older elector mechanical device did this for a different problem. Given variables: speed over surface, altitude, gravity, an objects drag Problem: At what time do you release an object to hit a predetermined spot. Hint: it was top secret in the early 1940s. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 8 18:32:31 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: "Basics of Analog Computers" book Message-ID: <001e01c049e5$a6bfcce0$3a779a8d@ajp166> From: Don Maslin >particular, I recall reading about a '60ish project by one of Britain's >Formula One makers to use a computer to control a F1-machine driving >around an actual circuit in lieu of the driver. As I recall the story, >it did not make it beyond the second turn. However, an analogue >computer handled the task quite well. Apocryphal? ??? this confuses the ideas of precision, accuracy and speed with complexity. Digital is absolute accuracy IE: 0101=5 and for a given machine any variation is error. Analog, is mushy on accuracy, 5 Volts at some output is "approximate". Digital to process data for a complex equation in real time has to collect it perform operations on it and output it. These occur at some rate that is fixed by hardware. The more complex the task the lower the total Throughput will be. Also there is latentcy, time from input to processed output, more complex means longer for a fixed speed. Analog, assuming a fixed slew rate for the op-amps used the system throughput IE: a change in input means near immediate change in output that will be complete in some "setteling time". That time even for slow op-amps is quite fast and usually in microseconds. Also analog does not mean the output cant be absolute (IF Vin or Fin exceeds N (some rate) then turn relay on). I've done some really neat things using pots realys and motors with only limited use of amplifying devices to trans late the pots output to something that can drive a motor. This is classic servo systems stuff and the fundemental circuit is the Wheatstone bridge for systems like this. If you add nonlinear devices like LOG taper pots(variable resistors) and gears and cams you can get reactions that can mimic things like non linear actions. The idea of balance is employed. This kind of automation was as common as flies and widely seen though often as simple devices. There is another group of machines that fall dead smack in the middle of the analog and the digital. These were the early preprocessing boxes that might take 8 channles of analog telemetry data and reduce it to stored data based on time, sensor and relative value or even as a histogram. While these machines would have counters, registers and some even core or drum(disk) they were at best not programable and most didn't even qualify as hardwired program (elementary state machine). Just a few points about early computer differences. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 8 18:52:46 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Here's one for the DEC engineers Message-ID: <004701c049e7$c5220cf0$3a779a8d@ajp166> From: Bill Pechter >The only problem with CSSE is they made it so easy to work on the DEC >stuff Field Service management began hiring the clueless to work cheap >and they lost a lot of the clued folks to people who changed the board >with the RED led lit. One day they worked on VT220's the next they >were promoted to your VAX cluster! Management... They took the work and tried to understand it. Field Circus management was a bunch of ex-bag carriers that felt they were the best and the rest were dumb. The end result is that first you couldn't find people that knew what a scope was and you still had to fix it due to committed response time. The latter often led to get a body there, NOW, I dont care who. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 8 18:46:25 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: "Basics of Analog Computers" book Message-ID: <004601c049e7$c4648950$3a779a8d@ajp166> From: Mark Gregory >Well this has certainly been an informative (and eye-opening) thread for me. >I had no idea that analogue computers were as common and as long-lived as >they were. That last word should be not WERE but, ARE. They still are used. > In the only "History of Computation" course that was included in >my Comp Sci program, analogue computers were treated only incidentally, with >the implication that development ceased with the advent of digital computers >(whether electro-mechanical or electronic) in the mid 1940s. In that course >and in other computing histories I've read, analogue computers seem to be an >unfairly neglected topic. They were not always thought of as computers, hence the neglect. Think servo systems and they come back as those very non digital systems. They may have been part of a larger mixed system like a attitude control system in a missle or autopilot for an airplane. The systems encompassed in the analog computers are around us still. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 8 18:53:03 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Pal and NTSC In-Reply-To: <3A09A4E7.18841.DCC3349@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Nov 08, 2000 07:09:27 PM Message-ID: <200011090053.QAA08006@shell1.aracnet.com> > I have an old famicon game system that is PAL-compliant. > Other than a PAL/NTSC converter or PAL TV is there any way of > hooking this up. ? An A/V Mac might do the trick. My PowerMac 8500/180 is a A/V system and it can handle either NTSC or PAL inputs and display them in a window on the desktop. Zane From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 8 19:04:10 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Here's one for the DEC engineers Message-ID: <006001c049e9$def32c20$3a779a8d@ajp166> From: Jerome Fine >I was told that while working on an 11/34A, one fellow from DEC >Field Circus blew all the boards in the backplane when he removed >the memory - seems that he forgot to turn off the power!! My favorite is a Field Circus CE arrives at site and while walking through the room he picks a likely cab to lay his stuff on. Then proceeds to ask where is this HSC thingie. Rumor has it the manager of the site was seen escorting the CE out the door with great vigor. Allison From richard at idcomm.com Wed Nov 8 19:07:48 2000 From: richard at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Pal and NTSC References: <3A09A4E7.18841.DCC3349@localhost> Message-ID: <001c01c049e9$910c8ba0$96483cd1@winbook> If I remember correctly, the format difference between PAL and NTSC lies not only in the difference in the vertical refresh rate but also in that the NTSC format is based on 525 horizontal scans per frame, while PAL uses 625. I'm not at all sure about whether PAL interlaces in the same way as NTSC does it, and, in fact, I'm not sure that they do that at all. Scan rate conversion is not at all a trivial process, to wit, boxes that did that between the desired NTSC format and the somewhat unusual high-frequency format used by the SGI stations on which high-res graphics were processed when I was involved in that sort of thing, cost several tens of thousands of taxpayer dollars. If you can find convertor of some suitable form, perhaps one of the popular video processor boxes that goes with the MAC or AMIGA for audio/video processing, that's your best bet. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence Walker To: Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 5:09 PM Subject: Pal and NTSC > I have an old famicon game system that is PAL-compliant. > Other than a PAL/NTSC converter or PAL TV is there any way of > hooking this up. ? > I do have a kaleidoscopic collection of monitors as well as > several VCR tape decks and a JDH Videomate external VGA/TV > adapter which allows me to use my NEC multisync as an all- > purpose viewer. It has an H-Phase pot whose response on the > monitor is a shift to the side of the display and otherwise not > causing any picture distortion. I recall on my Atari there were > programs that shifted from 60mhz to 50mhz and allowed you to > play PAL formatted games, but in this case there is no computer > intervention with the JDH. It is a straight-thru switch. > I don't consider this OT since the PAL/NTSC is a problem for all > collectors who are internationally-connected in this media. > > ciao larry > > Reply to: > lgwalker@look.ca > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Nov 8 18:27:20 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: "Basics of Analog Computers" book In-Reply-To: References: <20001107223243Z433181-145+51@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: >In addition, for real time simulation digital machines of that >generation were wholly (too strong?) inadewuate to the task. In >particular, I recall reading about a '60ish project by one of Britain's >Formula One makers to use a computer to control a F1-machine driving >around an actual circuit in lieu of the driver. As I recall the story, >it did not make it beyond the second turn. However, an analogue >computer handled the task quite well. Apocryphal? ??? Anecdotal, how it is done is likely the critical factor, not the hardware it was implemented on. From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Nov 8 19:57:01 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: DG Nova 4 References: <20001108091814.A15552@stronghold.xs4all.nl> <3A0955C3.9E0D2C84@home.com> <004101c0499b$9f29f720$05247452@dellhare> <20001109002522.A15951@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3A0A046D.6504939C@mainecoon.com> ClassicCmp wrote: > On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 08:50:29AM -0700, Bruce Ray wrote: > I think most of these cards are compatible with the Nova 3, but what > about the RIANDA disk controller in the "MEM I/O OPT" slot ? Depending on the _type_ of Nova bus backplane there are memory-only, memory-I/O and I/O-only slots. An I/O controller can be stuck in either an I/O or memory-I/O slot. But... Many DG controller carry interface signals to the device by making use of backplane pins which are unused on the slot in question (for example, in the case of an I/O slot, pins which carry memory signals) by wirewrapping the device connector to the backplane (essentially marrying the device to that and only that slot). > > There are two main I/O daisey chain signals on a standard Nova/Eclipse > > backplane - interrupt priority in/out and data channel request in/out - and > > they usually should be jumpered across unused slots if other I/O cards exist > > higher in the chassis. > > Right, can you tell me between what pins these signals should be jumpered ? When facing the wirewrap side of the backplane, it's the two pins, two in from the right-hand side of the left hand connector (confused yet?) So something like: ........xx.. .................. ........xx.. .................. These signals are essentially grant signals. There's a single wire-or interrupt request line and a similar line for data channel requests; when the CPU decides to honor the request it drives the INTA or DCHA line (which are the two signals being jumpered). The signals "enter" at the bottom of the slot and hit logic on the board which passes the signal out the top of the slot if the board isn't requesting service, or block the signal and drive the device's six-bit device code onto the bus if it is -- hence giving the device physically closest to the CPU higher priority. > I assume there should be just a wire-wrap between those pins ? Yes, from the top of the last occupied slot to the bottom of the next occupied slot. Depending on the artwork, you may be able to see the traces which carry these signals between ajacent slots. Oh, and don't forget to remove any existing jumpers that bypass the boads that you're installing ;-) -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Nov 8 21:35:27 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Anyone have an RK8E to sell? In-Reply-To: <20001108215145.69112.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001108193423.020a46c0@208.226.86.10> Ethan or anyone else, I would be willing to trade an RK8E for an RX8E (which is to say I have a "spare" RK8E but I would really like an RX8E) --Chuck At 01:51 PM 11/8/00 -0800, you wrote: >Now that I'm dusting off the RK05j for my Qbus systems, I'm interested >once again in attempting to finally hook a RK drive off of a PDP-8. I >have an RL8A and RK8E and a bunch of standard stuff, but I've never had >the chance to round out the collection. > >So... are there any RK8Es that aren't nailed down? > >Thanks, > >-ethan > > >===== >Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to >vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com > >The original webpage address is still going away. The >permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ > >See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. >http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Nov 8 22:01:48 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics Message-ID: <20001109040148.46751.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> --- ajp166 wrote: > An older elector mechanical device did this for a different problem. > > Given variables: speed over surface, > altitude, > gravity, > an objects drag > > Problem: At what time do you release an object to hit a > predetermined spot. > > Hint: it was top secret in the early 1940s. I would expect this is the Norden Bomb Sight (as made famous to my generation on "Hogan's Heroes" :-) -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From Glenatacme at aol.com Wed Nov 8 22:20:32 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: An article on the ZX-81 kits still being sold in the US Message-ID: > On Nov 7, 16:09, Hans Franke wrote: > > > Not completely. There _are_ 2 KB kits around - as you may remember, > > the ZX81 board was to be used with either two 2114 (1KB)or one > > 6116(2KB). Man, I'd like to get my hands on a 2 KB ZX-81 kit! ;>) To my knowledge, no ZX-81, kit or otherwise, shipped with 2 KB RAM, even though the boards could support it. The Timex TS1000 came standard with 2 KB. Glen 0/0 From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Nov 8 22:33:29 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Here's one for the DEC engineers References: <006001c049e9$def32c20$3a779a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3A0A2919.E8FD1426@idirect.com> >ajp166 wrote: > >I was told that while working on an 11/34A, one fellow from DEC > >Field Circus blew all the boards in the backplane when he removed > >the memory - seems that he forgot to turn off the power!! > My favorite is a Field Circus CE arrives at site and while walking > through the room he picks a likely cab to lay his stuff on. Then > proceeds to ask where is this HSC thingie. Rumor has it the > manager of the site was seen escorting the CE out the door > with great vigor. Jerome Fine replies: I had to read it 5 times before I realized that the "cab" and the "HSC thingie" were the same. Subtle. Very good. I had a much better laugh as a result. More at myself, of course. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Nov 8 22:51:44 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: OT: _my_ PAL/NTSC question :-) Message-ID: <20001108215143.K17975@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> Speaking of PAL... a couple weeks ago I got a VHS movie (Barber of Siberia... I'm trying to learn Russian and thought it might help) on ebay, played it on my NTSC VCR, and noticed that the picture looked funny; people's faces looked like melting plastic, and high-contrast edges were somewhat haloed, etc. Then I noticed the box was labeled PAL. So I'm wondering if it was dubbed to NTSC (with poor quality), was the wrong box for the tape and was actually NTSC despite the labeling, or if my VCR actually managed to play a PAL tape, with the quality being the result of the higher-bandwidth video signal going through lower-bandwidth NTSC electronics, and probably also speeding up the movie by 20% or so? I didn't think NTSC VCRs could play PAL tapes at all. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ From transit at lerctr.org Wed Nov 8 23:56:59 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Pal and NTSC In-Reply-To: <3A09A4E7.18841.DCC3349@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Lawrence Walker wrote: > I have an old famicon game system that is PAL-compliant. > Other than a PAL/NTSC converter or PAL TV is there any way of > hooking this up. ? I have a BBC Model B, modified for US power. It spits out a 625-line picture somewhere around (US) UHF TV channel 35 or so (haven't fired it up in years,though). Since the output is 625-lines (normal US TV is 525 lines) some of the top and bottom of the screen is missing. Also since PAL encodes color differently from NTSC, the picture is black and white... From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 9 00:15:48 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics In-Reply-To: <001f01c049e5$a767f3c0$3a779a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, ajp166 wrote: > >Ever since the late 60's, very large simulations of power > >grids were being performed on analog computers for the purposes of > >contingency analysis and dynamic stability assessment. These > >special-purpose analog computers filled entired rooms and sometimes > >had thousands of dynamic states (one integrator per dynamic state). > > > Exactly! > > An older elector mechanical device did this for a different problem. > > Given variables: speed over surface, > altitude, > gravity, > an objects drag > > Problem: At what time do you release an object to hit a > predetermined spot. > > Hint: it was top secret in the early 1940s. > > Allison > And rather smaller and lighter than the Navy's Mark 1A (analog) fire control computer which did a rather precise job of laying 2000# 16" - and smaller - projectiles to the desired location. - don From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 9 00:22:15 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: "Basics of Analog Computers" book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >In addition, for real time simulation digital machines of that > >generation were wholly (too strong?) inadewuate to the task. In > >particular, I recall reading about a '60ish project by one of Britain's > >Formula One makers to use a computer to control a F1-machine driving > >around an actual circuit in lieu of the driver. As I recall the story, > >it did not make it beyond the second turn. However, an analogue > >computer handled the task quite well. Apocryphal? ??? > > Anecdotal, how it is done is likely the critical factor, not the hardware > it was implemented on. Possibly, though my recollection is that it was primarily a matter of response time. Certainly, there were a number of factors involved in the success or failure of each. - don From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 9 01:08:41 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Electra sim computer (was: Re: "Basics of Analog Computers" book) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Gene Buckle wrote: > > $600,000 for complete testing, including real-world flight testing? > > $600,000 seems way too low for testing a complete new computer design in a > > fighter jet. Maybe that was just for the software? > > I think it was just for the computer itself, and not installed in the > aircraft. The actual testing required to implement a new control computer would probably run into the millions. And if it ain't broke, nobody will authorize millions to fix it :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Nov 9 02:41:18 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: HP 35401A Autoloader Tape Drive?? In-Reply-To: ip500's message of "Wed, 08 Nov 2000 18:50:13 -0500" References: <3A09E6B5.40D55FA6@home.com> Message-ID: <200011090841.eA98fI589413@daemonweed.reanimators.org> ip500 wrote: > Anyone have any data on this beast? Catalog sheet or tech sheet would > be ideal. It talks to the outside world via HPIB cable. It's approximately an HP9144 cartridge-tape drive with an autochanger. -Frank McConnell From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 9 03:43:03 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Pal and NTSC In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: Pal and NTSC" (Nov 8, 18:07) References: <3A09A4E7.18841.DCC3349@localhost> <001c01c049e9$910c8ba0$96483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: <10011090943.ZM25445@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 8, 18:07, Richard Erlacher wrote: > If I remember correctly, the format difference between PAL and NTSC lies not > only in the difference in the vertical refresh rate but also in that the > NTSC format is based on 525 horizontal scans per frame, while PAL uses 625. > I'm not at all sure about whether PAL interlaces in the same way as NTSC > does it, and, in fact, I'm not sure that they do that at all. One is a consequence of the other. The most obvious difference between PAL and NTSC is the use of different vertical scan rates (50Hz vs 60Hz) but they use the same horizontal scan rate (15.something kHz), so if you do the arithmetic, you'll see why they use different numbers of scan lines (625 vs 525). They both use interleave; so the number of full frames is 25 per second or 30 per second. They also differ in the way they encode colour information. The basic scheme is similar but the subcarrier frequencies differ, and in the case of PAL, there is a "colour burst" of pure subcarrier at the start of every line. This allows the circuitry to synchronise better. Also, the colour signal is 180deg different in phase on every second line (hence the name, Phased Alternate Line) which makes it a little more stable. In the context of broadcast TV, they also use diffent audio subcarriers (in fact, there are several PAL variants, used in different countries. They're called PAL/G, PAL/K, PAL/I, etc). The net result is that you can often use a PAL display instead of an NTSC one or vice-versa, but you would expect to lose the colour and sound. You might possibly have to tweak the vertical hold to get a steady picture. Since the sync pulses are encoded in the same way, any monitor or TV should lock on to the horizontal signal perfectly, but the vertical might be beyond the range of the sync circuit (it's usually OK in practice, though). I bet Tony knows more about this than I do. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Thu Nov 9 07:13:27 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Cluster for VMS install? In-Reply-To: <200010030418.VAA24927@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <200010030418.VAA24927@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: I now have a vaxstation 3100/76 with openvms 7.2 installed (the 3100 has 1 dec cdrom drive and 1 RZ24 disk)..it seems to work fine. How can I get my Microvax 3400 (with 2 400MB drives that now boots to vms 5.?) to be able to reinstall vms from the 3100 (since the 3400 doesn't have scsi....and I have no tape install media for vms..I'm trying to get a new install of vms on the 3400 and some had suggested that getting a working 3100 might be a start and the rest involved clustering..... Any ideas? I am new to the openvms world. Is it possible to point the 3400 to the 3100 and have it boot from the 3100's cdrom drive? (presuming, of course, that I've connected thinnet between the systems)? thanks. -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Nov 9 07:23:17 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Here's one for the DEC engineers In-Reply-To: <006001c049e9$def32c20$3a779a8d@ajp166> from ajp166 at "Nov 8, 2000 08:04:10 pm" Message-ID: <200011091323.eA9DNIc10850@bg-tc-ppp1094.monmouth.com> > From: Jerome Fine > > > >I was told that while working on an 11/34A, one fellow from DEC > >Field Circus blew all the boards in the backplane when he removed > >the memory - seems that he forgot to turn off the power!! > > > My favorite is a Field Circus CE arrives at site and while walking > through the room he picks a likely cab to lay his stuff on. Then > proceeds to ask where is this HSC thingie. Rumor has it the > manager of the site was seen escorting the CE out the door > with great vigor. > > Allison Well, I was NEVER that bad... but I had fun trying to find the 11/23 doing HASP spooling at ADR in the mid '80's... It was in a VT103 on top of the VAX 11/780 I installed.. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Thu Nov 9 07:20:56 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Memorex/Termiflex One-handed terminal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 08 Nov 2000 15:07:20 -0600 Bill Richman wrote: > Our mainframe guys recently got rid of some big hard drive chassis, > and in the process of cleaning up they were going to thow away (!) a > couple of little Memorex/Termiflex one-handed terminals that I've > lusted after ever since I saw the service engineer using them. I > think they're a 1 or 2-line LED dot-matrix display, and they have some > form of "chording" keyboard on the front. Sounds like the old Microwriter, or even the original chord keyboard that Doug Engelbart used with the mouse. I'd love to see a picture of one of these, to get some idea of how the chording works. I have a couple of Microwriters: http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/org.htm (scroll down to the end of the page). -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Nov 9 07:32:21 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: was DEC engineers -- now management and response times In-Reply-To: <004701c049e7$c5220cf0$3a779a8d@ajp166> from ajp166 at "Nov 8, 2000 07:52:46 pm" Message-ID: <200011091332.eA9DWLN10877@bg-tc-ppp1094.monmouth.com> > From: Bill Pechter > >The only problem with CSSE is they made it so easy to work on the DEC > >stuff Field Service management began hiring the clueless to work cheap > >and they lost a lot of the clued folks to people who changed the board > >with the RED led lit. One day they worked on VT220's the next they > >were promoted to your VAX cluster! > > > Management... They took the work and tried to understand it. Field > Circus > management was a bunch of ex-bag carriers that felt they were the best > and the rest were dumb. The end result is that first you couldn't find > people that knew what a scope was and you still had to fix it due to > committed response time. The latter often led to get a body there, > NOW, I dont care who. > > Allison Well, the problem was that the older support guys and managers felt that the new guys couldn't handle the stuff -- and the customer expectations in downtime and response escalated as the DEC stuff moved from the scientific to commercial areas (except for the DECsystem10 and DECsystem20 stuff). Contracts required a definite response time... not a response of qualified personnel time. Most of the time the DEC guys could work on almost anything -- but sending me to a straight PDP8 at Fort Monmouth (SN 209) was a waste of a good PDP11 and Vax trained guy. If you want to deal with an ugly bad organization which just works to meet the LETTER OF THE CONTRACT -- you should deal with IBM Global Services on PC support... They'll leave some things broken a couple of days to avoid letting some items go out of the contract specifications on a regular basis -- because they lose $$$ if they miss the contract window and can't make money if they hire enough personnel for the busy periods. "Oh -- you dual boot linux and Win98 on that PC -- we have to charge you for support on two machines -- or it's out of scope of the contract..." DEC really gave a damn about the customer... as do the real IBM Field Service guys and the working folks at TSS (the IBM - Kodak spin off of the smaller systems service group which handles RS6k's and AS/400's). But the current and ex-IBM management is mainly focussed on income rather than the customer satisfaction that drove DEC in the '80's to have the best focussed field service group around. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 9 09:11:12 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Memorex/Termiflex One-handed terminal? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB315@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > On Wed, 08 Nov 2000 15:07:20 -0600 Bill Richman > wrote: > > Our mainframe guys recently got rid of some big hard drive chassis, > > and in the process of cleaning up they were going to thow away (!) a > > couple of little Memorex/Termiflex one-handed terminals that I've > > lusted after ever since I saw the service engineer using them. I > > think they're a 1 or 2-line LED dot-matrix display, and > they have some > > form of "chording" keyboard on the front. > > Sounds like the old Microwriter, or even the original chord > keyboard that Doug Engelbart used with the mouse. > > I'd love to see a picture of one of these, to get some idea > of how the chording works. I have a couple of Microwriters: There are two photos of Doug's chord keyset in issue #4 of MacWorld. If you can't find a copy, let me know, I'll see if I can remeber to bring it in to the orifice and scan it for you. -dq From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 9 09:27:45 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics Message-ID: While the Norden bombsight was smaller, etc., it would be stretching it by a large degree to compare it to a computer.. I'm fairly certain Allison was referring to the Mark I... Will J _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 9 09:39:35 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Just a quick additonal classiccomp-related Electra/P3 note Message-ID: I just thought that the group might find it interesting to know that the P-3 Orion carries, as part of the electronics suite, a Data General Nova 3. Nifty, isn't it? Just in case anyone thinks I'm talking about the avionics, I'll go ahead and say that I mean the Nova 3 is part of the ASW suite.. Oh yeah, ASW = Anti-Submarine Warfare, which is the Orion's primary function, though it also serves as an all-purpose patrol aircraft, and it can even carry out anti-ship missions (it has underwing hardpoints for Harpoon cruise missles). At least I seem to remember that it was Harpoons it could carry, at any rate, it is capable of carrying some sort of missiles ;p Will J _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From menadeau at mediaone.net Thu Nov 9 09:41:15 2000 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Memorex/Termiflex One-handed terminal? References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB315@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <007201c04a63$7f47bf00$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> You can also find a picture of Englebart's chord keyset at Stanford's MouseSite: http://sloan.stanford.edu/mousesite/Devices.cfm Michael Nadeau ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 10:11 AM Subject: RE: Memorex/Termiflex One-handed terminal? > > On Wed, 08 Nov 2000 15:07:20 -0600 Bill Richman > > wrote: > > > Our mainframe guys recently got rid of some big hard drive chassis, > > > and in the process of cleaning up they were going to thow away (!) a > > > couple of little Memorex/Termiflex one-handed terminals that I've > > > lusted after ever since I saw the service engineer using them. I > > > think they're a 1 or 2-line LED dot-matrix display, and > > they have some > > > form of "chording" keyboard on the front. > > > > Sounds like the old Microwriter, or even the original chord > > keyboard that Doug Engelbart used with the mouse. > > > > I'd love to see a picture of one of these, to get some idea > > of how the chording works. I have a couple of Microwriters: > > There are two photos of Doug's chord keyset in issue #4 of > MacWorld. If you can't find a copy, let me know, I'll see if > I can remeber to bring it in to the orifice and scan it for > you. > > -dq > From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Nov 9 10:33:49 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics In-Reply-To: <001f01c049e5$a767f3c0$3a779a8d@ajp166> from ajp166 at "Nov 8, 2000 07:39:48 pm" Message-ID: <200011091633.IAA03283@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > An older elector mechanical device did this for a different problem. > > Given variables: speed over surface, > altitude, > gravity, > an objects drag > > Problem: At what time do you release an object to hit a > predetermined spot. > > Hint: it was top secret in the early 1940s. And I would like to see an accurate simulation of one. I've seen the real thing, but being fastened to a metal post set into a concrete floor, it wasn't in operable condition. Not to mention that none of the dials were labeled, undoubtedly because the functions of each were also top secret at the time it was manufactured. Eric From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Nov 9 10:35:45 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics In-Reply-To: from Will Jennings at "Nov 9, 2000 08:27:45 am" Message-ID: <200011091635.IAA03344@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > While the Norden bombsight was smaller, etc., it would be stretching it by a > large degree to compare it to a computer.. I'm fairly certain Allison was > referring to the Mark I... It's not stretching it at all to consider the Norden to be an analog computer. I'm not really sure how it could be considered to be otherwise. Eric From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Nov 9 11:02:45 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Just a quick additonal classiccomp-related Electra/P3 note References: Message-ID: <3A0AD8B5.90649A92@mainecoon.com> Will Jennings wrote: > > I just thought that the group might find it interesting to know that the P-3 > Orion carries, as part of the electronics suite, a Data General Nova 3. > Nifty, isn't it? Just in case anyone thinks I'm talking about the avionics, > I'll go ahead and say that I mean the Nova 3 is part of the ASW suite.. That's interesting, given that I've never seen a commercial-packaged processor on board a P3. Is this a Norden-ruggedized unit? > Oh > yeah, ASW = Anti-Submarine Warfare, which is the Orion's primary function, > though it also serves as an all-purpose patrol aircraft, and it can even > carry out anti-ship missions (it has underwing hardpoints for Harpoon cruise > missles). At least I seem to remember that it was Harpoons it could carry, > at any rate, it is capable of carrying some sort of missiles ;p The Orion can carry up to 20,000lbs of stuff on underwing hardpoints and the single internal weapons bay including mines, depth bombs, torpedoes and rockets -- the latter including the Harpoon ASM (which isn't technically a cruise missile). The internal weapons bay was capable of carrying Mk-43 and Mk-57 (and probably Mk-34) nuclear depth bombs. Now that those devices have all been retired I'd be surprised if it didn't have the ability to puke out some version of the B-61. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 9 11:17:42 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics In-Reply-To: <200011091635.IAA03344@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> References: from Will Jennings at "Nov 9, 2000 08:27:45 am" Message-ID: >> While the Norden bombsight was smaller, etc., it would be stretching it >>by a >> large degree to compare it to a computer.. I'm fairly certain Allison was >> referring to the Mark I... > >It's not stretching it at all to consider the Norden to be an analog >computer. I'm not really sure how it could be considered to be otherwise. Its a single purpose device. Computers tend to be flexible. I would call it more of a calculator, or really a mechanical compensator. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 9 12:07:52 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:41 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB319@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > > An older elector mechanical device did this for a different > problem. > > > > Given variables: speed over surface, > > altitude, > > gravity, > > an objects drag > > > > Problem: At what time do you release an object to hit a > > predetermined spot. > > > > Hint: it was top secret in the early 1940s. > > And I would like to see an accurate simulation of one. I've seen > the real thing, but being fastened to a metal post set into a concrete > floor, it wasn't in operable condition. Not to mention that none of the > dials were labeled, undoubtedly because the functions of each were also > top secret at the time it was manufactured. I think I've seen a photo of this, with Vannevar Bush standing over it, looking at it. -dq From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 9 12:13:07 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics Message-ID: I would also make the point that it isn't programmable.. The Mark I was programmable, though it lacked the ability to store programs. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 9 12:52:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Pal and NTSC In-Reply-To: <3A09A4E7.18841.DCC3349@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Nov 8, 0 07:09:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2580 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001109/3781ef7a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 9 13:08:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Pal and NTSC In-Reply-To: <10011090943.ZM25445@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 9, 0 09:43:03 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2777 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001109/2d4281d4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 9 12:58:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Pal and NTSC In-Reply-To: <001c01c049e9$910c8ba0$96483cd1@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 8, 0 06:07:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1227 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001109/729695cd/attachment.ksh From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Nov 9 15:04:12 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001501c04a90$9d6a2860$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com> > I would also make the point that it isn't programmable.. > The Mark I was programmable, though it lacked the ability > to store programs. Wasn't storable program architecture the key to the "-AC"s (ILLIAC, UNIVAC, BIZMAC, ???), that is "Automatic Computation" was the marketplace expression for a Stored Program computer. John A. (...But notably not MiniVAC ) From elvey at hal.com Thu Nov 9 15:08:49 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Pal and NTSC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200011092108.NAA01777@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Europe USA > # lines 625 525 > Vertical Freq 50Hz 60Hz > Horiz Freq 15.625kHz 15.750kHz > Colour encoding PAL NTSC > (Subcarrier) 4.43MHz 3.58MHz > Hi Recently we had a computer that was setup for PAL ( B&W ). We tried it on one of those Sony monitors that has a select for everything. We never were able to get it to work. Latter we tried an old black and white monitor ( well black and green ). We were able to adjust the vertical and horizontal enough to get it to work. I guess it really depends on what you expect. I think the Sony may have been looking for the color burst or maybe the audio to lock onto. The computer we had only produced video B&W out. Dwight From thompson at mail.athenet.net Thu Nov 9 17:28:25 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: DECsystem 10 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ...for sale on ebay. Already over a grand. Some nice pictures to look at, at least. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=487592830 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 9 17:44:24 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Here's one for the DEC engineers Message-ID: <006501c04aa8$cc4f8ae0$fe749a8d@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Jerome Fine >Jerome Fine replies: > >I had to read it 5 times before I realized that the "cab" and the >"HSC thingie" were the same. Subtle. Very good. I had a >much better laugh as a result. More at myself, of course. The CE that did recognize it however didn't fare as well. ;) Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 9 18:03:04 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics Message-ID: <009f01c04aaa$e80cc2a0$fe749a8d@ajp166> From: Mike Ford >>> While the Norden bombsight was smaller, etc., it would be stretching it >>>by a >>> large degree to compare it to a computer.. I'm fairly certain Allison was >>> referring to the Mark I... >> >>It's not stretching it at all to consider the Norden to be an analog >>computer. I'm not really sure how it could be considered to be otherwise. > >Its a single purpose device. Computers tend to be flexible. I would call it >more of a calculator, or really a mechanical compensator. Really wrong. First calculator is a fixed program computer (mechanical or otherwise) And the lack of programability would certainly be significant for a large class of machines as to their status. We have machines (electronic, electrical, mechanical, water, air, whatever) that can: Perform repeated steps (cams, timers) Perfom compensating controls (servos, thermostats) Perform a calcuation based on several variables Subgroup fixed program (calculators) Subgroup programable by wires, jumpers, cams, gears, relays, roms (calculators, embedded computers) Variable program ("true computers", programable calculators) See the linkage, as soon as the system takes on multiple variables and procudes a results based on them we are doing calculation... Computing is just a different name. Oh, the example I posted was written with Norden Bombsight, Mark-1A and most any other tool used to calculate ballistic trajectories. Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Nov 9 18:52:21 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics In-Reply-To: References: <200011091635.IAA03344@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001109165129.00a317d0@208.226.86.10> At 09:17 AM 11/9/00 -0800, Mike wrote: >Its [Norden Bomb Sight] a single purpose device. Computers tend to be >flexible. I would call it >more of a calculator, or really a mechanical compensator. Its probably an ancient argument. I'd call it an "embedded" analog computer :-) --Chuck From lgwalker at look.ca Thu Nov 9 19:01:44 2000 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Pal and NTSC In-Reply-To: References: <3A09A4E7.18841.DCC3349@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Nov 8, 0 07:09:27 pm Message-ID: <3A0B02A8.14917.1322A2A1@localhost> > > > > I have an old famicon game system that is PAL-compliant. > > Other than a PAL/NTSC converter or PAL TV is there any way of > > hooking this up. ? > > Apart from the obvious answer 'to a PAL monitor', I can't think of any > way of viewing the signal which doesn't involve a device that directly > displays PAL encoded signals (TV or monitor) or a device that conerts > PAL to something else that you can display (converter to NTSC or RGB > or...) > > I am going to assume that the signal is the European PAL format (there > are other PAL standards, but I've not seen a computer that uses them). > The main differences between that video signal and the one used in the > States is : > Europe USA > # lines 625 525 > Vertical Freq 50Hz 60Hz > Horiz Freq 15.625kHz 15.750kHz > Colour encoding PAL NTSC > (Subcarrier) 4.43MHz 3.58MHz > > So to produce a genuine USA TV signal from a European one, it's not > just a matter of converting the colour encoding (which is a relatively > simple process -- there are plenty of RGB <-> TV colour encoding chips > about for all the common standards), but also a scan rate conversion > (a lot harder). > > But you can probably get an RGB monitor in the States that can take > RGB signals at European rates (they are available in the UK -- in fact > most TVs over here will do that). So you'd then need a decoder from > PAL to RGB -- which is a fairly simple circuit, but probably not one > you want to design yourself... > > > I do have a kaleidoscopic collection of monitors as well as > > Got any composite-input colour monitors with a PAL input? > Despite all the bloody monitors I'm carrying ,I don't think so. An obvious gap in my collection if only to be able to play some of those PAL formatted Atari games. > > several VCR tape decks and a JDH Videomate external VGA/TV > > adapter which allows me to use my NEC multisync as an all- > > purpose viewer. It has an H-Phase pot whose response on the > > monitor is a shift to the side of the display and otherwise not > > causing any picture distortion. I recall on my Atari there were > > programs that shifted from 60mhz to 50mhz and allowed you to > > You mean 60Hz and 50Hz, surely... Not millihertz > What's a mil- more or less :^) oops. > > play PAL formatted games, but in this case there is no computer > > intervention with the JDH. It is a straight-thru switch. > > I don't consider this OT since the PAL/NTSC is a problem for all > > No, it's certainly on-topic... > > > collectors who are internationally-connected in this media. > > Well, those of us who collect mostly largre machines that either have > teir own monitors (workstations) or which use serial terminals > (minicomputers) don't have this problem too much :-) > > -tony > Considering the amount of space I'm already using for my micros, the last thing I need is to get into minis. Get thee behind me Satan. Seems like I'll just have to try some combinations. So far I've only tried my Sony TV/JVH VCR that I usually use for my Game boxes. I've heard of the Ch35 thing and also that some VCRs or TVs will work. Possibly one of my configurable monitors has something I've overlooked. I"m more interested in seeing that the Famicon system does work than in using it. There's a considerable number of emigres from PAL areas here in Toronto so it shouldn't be a major problem finding a cast-off PAL TV. Thanks all larry Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From lgwalker at look.ca Thu Nov 9 19:15:20 2000 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Pal and NTSC In-Reply-To: <200011090053.QAA08006@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <3A09A4E7.18841.DCC3349@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Nov 08, 2000 07:09:27 PM Message-ID: <3A0B05D8.23738.132F168A@localhost> > > I have an old famicon game system that is PAL-compliant. > > Other than a PAL/NTSC converter or PAL TV is there any way of > > hooking this up. ? > > An A/V Mac might do the trick. My PowerMac 8500/180 is a A/V system > and it can handle either NTSC or PAL inputs and display them in a > window on the desktop. > > Zane > I do have a 7100/66 AV. My biggest problem is that none of my VCRs has S control inputs only RCA jacks and I haven't found a source for the proper plugs. I believe it's only Chroma Luma and 2 grounds isn't it ? So far I've been too lazy to modify a couple of cables. What program would you use ? ciao larry Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 9 19:37:32 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Will Jennings wrote: > I would also make the point that it isn't programmable.. The Mark I was Oh, come now! Do you seriously think that bombs were always dropped from the same altitude, at the same airspeed, with the same crosswind, and air temperature - to cite a few variables? > programmable, though it lacked the ability to store programs. > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Nov 9 21:32:41 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Here's one for the DEC engineers References: <006501c04aa8$cc4f8ae0$fe749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3A0B6C59.AB9021A0@idirect.com> >ajp166 wrote: > >Jerome Fine replies: > >I had to read it 5 times before I realized that the "cab" and the > >"HSC thingie" were the same. Subtle. Very good. I had a > >much better laugh as a result. More at myself, of course. > The CE that did recognize it however didn't fare as well. ;) Jerome Fine replies: I realize this is a nit pick - and I don't usually take part in these back and forth posts - but somehow this one was funny! I thought that you said the CE (Circus Engineer) did NOT recognize it?? Did you really mean to say: "The CE that did NOT recognize it however didn't fare as well. ;)" ??? I know I am probably even drier than Bore, but after watching and listening to the Gush and Bore dance for over a year only to have the result depend (at last count) on less than three hundred votes is a bit much and I finally tore myself away from CNN to have a bit of a laugh here. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Nov 9 22:02:30 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: OT: So where was I? Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001109200206.03019960@208.226.86.10> http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/rocketsci.wav From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 9 22:13:29 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Here's one for the DEC engineers Message-ID: <00d301c04acc$d084ecd0$fe749a8d@ajp166> From: Jerome Fine > >I thought that you said the CE (Circus Engineer) did NOT recognize it?? > >Did you really mean to say: > >"The CE that did NOT recognize it however didn't fare as well. ;)" ??? Actaully I wrote what I ment but I like your version as both were true. The CE that got bounced, suffered. The next one had a dog on his hands. Allison From jlewczyk at his.com Thu Nov 9 22:16:11 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Lisa Profile Drive emulation on a PC In-Reply-To: <00d301c04acc$d084ecd0$fe749a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <000b01c04acc$f572a910$6401a8c0@Corellian> There was someone trying to interface a Lisa to a PC, making the PC act like a Profile drive. That college class project didn't get completed, but there is a bunch of info on the project, the Profile and Lisa parallel port at: http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~tom/cs23/final/ I thought that this was a terrific project, as Profile drives are become rarer and they will probably all break down before the Lisa's do. Making a PC act like a Profile is a great solution. Unfortunately, I have never received a response from the folks at swarthmore college and suspect the project is abandoned. :-( Anyone know what happened to the project, or are there others who have done this? I worry about my profile drives dying before my Lisa and would love to have a PC as a backup. If no one (is doing/has done) this, I may take my own shot at it. John jlewczyk@his.com From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Thu Nov 9 22:30:43 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Lisa Profile Drive emulation on a PC Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F08EAB58C@alfexc5.alf.dec.com> Tom Stepleton is the guy running this project -- I lent him my Lisa for his work. Here's a wrap-up summary he sent me on the project just before he returned the system to me. -- Tony ---------------------- Here's a summary of what I've done. Addressing the unreliability of the wiring in the last attempt, I completely rewired the prototyping board and switched to a single 84-pin MAX 7000 chip and adapter instead of the Altera experimentation board used in class. Physically speaking, the circuit is complete. I was able to get the circuit to succesfully dupe the Lisa into believing that there really was a ProFile attached to the port. Unfortunately, there is really no interim step between that and full functionality. I came a long way, but I didn't make it. Here's what I managed to do: Linux side: On a machine borrowed from Professor Maxwell, I installed a secondary Linux kernel - version 2.4.0-test4 - which provides the latest facilities for manipulating the parallel port from a userland program (read more at http://people.redhat.com/twaugh/parport/html/parportguide.html). This is a really neat driver, incidentally, although it is still in development. Using this driver, I created MrProfile, a rudimentary ProFile emulation program. MrProfile currently responds to interrupts generated by the adapter, but all calls to read() extract zero bytes of data from the port. Whether this is due to poor programming, the driver, or a malprogrammed board is not yet clear. Adapter side: Using what I learned in making the program to fake a ProFile's existence, I completely reprogrammed the full-featured version of the adapter circuit. The philosophy behind the device's role has not changed much from before, but the code has been altered quite a bit to suit the whims of Altera. What happens: Activity on the Lisa side causes the adapter to alert the PC with an interrupt. The PC fails to read any data from the parallel port; the adapter sits waiting for something to happen, and the Lisa eventually times out. There are three reasons for why this is happening, now that poor connectivity has been ruled out (via multimeter): metastability, flaws in parallel port driver, and poor assumptions about the EPP parallel port standard. I don't think it's the first, because the problem is always the same. I feel it's about even odds between the second and third choices. The future: I'm not giving up, but the likelihood that I'll be able to put real work into it this fall is not all that great. Just in case the hardware has been programmed correctly, I'm taking the prototype board home to my two Lisas there (hope this is OK, Bruce), where I'll try getting it to work with an old Pentium 90. Even if the hardware is slightly faulty, the low-level programming capability of the parallel port driver suggests that I will be able to get around it. However, if I've made an error on the Lisa side, I'll be out of luck. I'll see what options I have and then make decisions. I'll also turn over all of my code to the folks on the Lisa and Lisa Emulator mailing lists at sunder.net and see if they can offer any tips. > ---------- > From: John Lewczyk[SMTP:jlewczyk@his.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 11:16 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Lisa Profile Drive emulation on a PC > > There was someone trying to interface a Lisa to a PC, making the PC act > like a > Profile drive. That college class project didn't get completed, but there > is a > bunch of info on the project, the Profile and Lisa parallel port at: > http://www.cs.swarthmore.edu/~tom/cs23/final/ > > I thought that this was a terrific project, as Profile drives are become > rarer > and they will probably all break down before the Lisa's do. Making a PC > act > like a Profile is a great solution. Unfortunately, I have never received > a > response from the folks at swarthmore college and suspect the project is > abandoned. :-( > > Anyone know what happened to the project, or are there others who have > done > this? I worry about my profile drives dying before my Lisa and would love > to > have a PC as a backup. If no one (is doing/has done) this, I may take my > own > shot at it. > > John > jlewczyk@his.com > From phil at ultimate.com Thu Nov 9 22:45:21 2000 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Lisa Profile Drive emulation on a PC Message-ID: <200011100445.XAA27207@ultimate.com> I've always wanted to do the same sort of thing for RX02's; fool my RXV211 into thinking a PC at the other end of the ribbon cable is a pair of RX02's. It seems feasible using just a parallel port; despite the width of the ribbon cable, it doesn't carry many signals. From ncherry at home.net Thu Nov 9 23:44:42 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Ebay: Nova 3/12 Message-ID: <3A0B8B4A.8B86FE69@home.net> I found this on ebay (no, I'm not the person selling this, I live in NJ) Currently it's going for $9.99. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=494399669 Remember, I have nothing to do with this other than I found it there. (I hope this asbetos suite works ;-) -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From marvin at rain.org Fri Nov 10 00:56:14 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Calculo Analog Computer References: <3A0B8B4A.8B86FE69@home.net> Message-ID: <3A0B9C0E.C6C3C7C8@rain.org> Speaking of Analog Computers, anyone know what a Calculo Analog Computer is? There is currently one on ebay at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=486764064 From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Nov 10 07:15:37 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: RX02 drive emulation (was RE: Lisa Profile Drive emulation on a PC) In-Reply-To: <200011100445.XAA27207@ultimate.com> Message-ID: I'm looking for a way to access a RX0? drive from a PC! I'd like to archive all the 8" floppies that came with my '780 (including some CPM/68K distributions) for long-term preservation. Anybody done anything like this? I'm still looking for the pinout of the 10? pin ribbon cable that comes out of the dual floppy box. clint On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Phil Budne wrote: > I've always wanted to do the same sort of thing for RX02's; fool my > RXV211 into thinking a PC at the other end of the ribbon cable is a > pair of RX02's. It seems feasible using just a parallel port; > despite the width of the ribbon cable, it doesn't carry many signals. > > > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Nov 10 08:14:40 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Mac video (was Re: Pal and NTSC) Message-ID: <20001110141440.48692.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lawrence Walker wrote: > I do have a 7100/66 AV. My biggest problem is that none of my > VCRs has S control inputs only RCA jacks and I haven't found a > source for the proper plugs... Speaking of Mac video, I'm getting a 6100 from my youngest brother (as soon as I can get over to his house to pick it up) and it apparently has a funky connector that requires some sort of pod to break out regular video signals/connectors. This Mac does not have said pod/cable. Where can I get one? (presumable for less than what Apple would charge for a new one - this is a $20 computer). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From THETechnoid at home.com Fri Nov 10 09:46:19 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Mac video (was Re: Pal and NTSC) In-Reply-To: <20001110141440.48692.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20001110153749.HOFE2160.femail8.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> I think that is one of a very few that uses a square high-density jack on the machine? You should be able to get a cable to a standard Mac monitor or to an SVGA from MacWorld. V/R Jeff In <20001110141440.48692.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com>, on 11/10/00 at 10:46 AM, Ethan Dicks said: >--- Lawrence Walker wrote: >> I do have a 7100/66 AV. My biggest problem is that none of my >> VCRs has S control inputs only RCA jacks and I haven't found a >> source for the proper plugs... >Speaking of Mac video, I'm getting a 6100 from my youngest brother (as >soon as I can get over to his house to pick it up) and it apparently has >a funky connector that requires some sort of pod to break out regular >video signals/connectors. This Mac does not have said pod/cable. Where >can I get one? (presumable for less than what Apple would charge for a >new one - this is a $20 computer). >-ethan >===== >Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to >vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com >The original webpage address is still going away. The >permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ >See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place. >http://shopping.yahoo.com/ -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Fri Nov 10 10:00:12 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c04b2f$4fb06400$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com> >It's not stretching it at all to consider the Norden to >be an analog computer. I'm not really sure how it could >be considered to be otherwise. IBM had a Norden in its (internal only) computer museum, so that helps support the claim of it being an (analog) computer. If not a General computer then a Killer App, perhaps? John A. From claudew at sprint.ca Fri Nov 10 10:15:00 2000 From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? Message-ID: <3A0C1F04.F19422D8@sprint.ca> Hi I am restoring a TRS80 model 2000 (1983), one of the rare machines to use an actual 80186 Intel CPU. I did not have the original keyboard. I have been told that an older 1000 keyboard (90 key type similar look to 4p keyboard) works fine as long as you make an adapter cable. I have the pin functions for the trs80 2000 5 pin din keyboard connector but not for the other end...the 8 pin male connector on the old 1000 keyboard... I looked and searched long and hard...all over...anybody got that? I am at the point of opening up the keyboard and looking at the circuit to figure out the pinout but I would like to avoid that... Thanks Claude From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 10 10:25:24 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB323@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > >It's not stretching it at all to consider the Norden to > >be an analog computer. I'm not really sure how it could > >be considered to be otherwise. > > > IBM had a Norden in its (internal only) computer museum, > so that helps support the claim of it being an (analog) > computer. IIRC, Frank Fink has a few of these, and he told me he's always looking for more... -dq From jlewczyk at his.com Fri Nov 10 10:27:07 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: So where was I? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001109200206.03019960@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <000101c04b33$116941e0$6401a8c0@Corellian> LOL! :-)) What is the source of this? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chuck McManis > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 11:03 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: OT: So where was I? > > > http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/rocketsci.wav > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 10 10:45:23 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Mac video (was Re: Pal and NTSC) In-Reply-To: <20001110153749.HOFE2160.femail8.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci22322 9-a> References: <20001110141440.48692.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001110114523.00739c80@earthlink.net> At 10:46 AM 11/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >I think that is one of a very few that uses a square high-density jack on >the machine? You should be able to get a cable to a standard Mac monitor >or to an SVGA from MacWorld. Yes, the 6100 uses the 45 pin connector that was to be used with thier 14" multimedia monitor that never took off. Adapters for both VGA and Mac-style connectors are readily available. Even on eBay, they tend to go for between $15 and $19 generally. Now if it's a 6100/AV, it will have a standard Mac connecotr on the AV card, along with the S-video in/out jacks. Take care Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ From tarsi at binhost.com Fri Nov 10 10:49:06 2000 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <3A0C1F04.F19422D8@sprint.ca> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001110104744.02ab2eb0@binhost.com> > >I am restoring a TRS80 model 2000 (1983), one of the rare machines to >use an actual 80186 Intel CPU. An 80_1_86? Really. I guess I was never aware that there was one like that ever made. I always thought they jumped from the 8086 to the 80286 CPU. Do you have any stats on this little baby? Tarsi 210 From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Nov 10 10:54:18 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001110104744.02ab2eb0@binhost.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:49:06 -0600 Tarsi wrote: > An 80_1_86? Really. Absolutely. It was just like an 8086, as far as the programmer was concerned, but it had a few on-chip peripherals. > I guess I was never aware that there was one like > that ever made. I always thought they jumped from the 8086 to the 80286 CPU. I used a very early laptop in 1986 called the Tava Flyer. It was a twin-floppy MS-DOS machine, CGA graphics on an LCD (mono, no backlight) and an 80186 CPU. Worked fine. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 10 10:56:57 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics Message-ID: Frank Fink is more the welcome to the bombsight, just send me the B-17. ;p _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 10 11:12:07 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB324@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > >I am restoring a TRS80 model 2000 (1983), one of the rare machines to > >use an actual 80186 Intel CPU. > > An 80_1_86? Really. I guess I was never aware that there was one like > that ever made. I always thought they jumped from the 8086 to the 80286 CPU. > > Do you have any stats on this little baby? Same as the 8086/8086 except: slight difference in PUSHF & POPF has ENTER and LEAVE instructions Anyone else remember anything else? -dq From claudew at sprint.ca Fri Nov 10 11:30:23 2000 From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Intel 80186/TRS 80 model 2000...Was // Re: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001110104744.02ab2eb0@binhost.com> Message-ID: <3A0C30AF.D2BDA956@sprint.ca> Tarsi wrote: > Do you have any stats on this little baby? Not really about the 80186 itself but for more info on the TRS80 model 2000 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757/T2000.HTML It's Jeff Hellige's site. He helped me alot get this thing going again... Claude From jrasite at eoni.com Fri Nov 10 11:28:31 2000 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Mac video (was Re: Pal and NTSC) References: <20001110153749.HOFE2160.femail8.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <3A0C3034.2D7FCD21@eoni.com> Just search ebay for "HDI-45" and "6100". There's always a couple of them there. OR... get the PCI 90 deg. adapter and put a vid card in it. Jim > >Speaking of Mac video, I'm getting a 6100 from my youngest brother (as > >soon as I can get over to his house to pick it up) and it apparently has > >a funky connector that requires some sort of pod to break out regular > >video signals/connectors. This Mac does not have said pod/cable. Where > >can I get one? (presumable for less than what Apple would charge for a > >new one - this is a $20 computer). > > >-ethan From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Nov 10 11:34:41 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Pal and NTSC In-Reply-To: <200011092108.NAA01777@civic.hal.com> References: Message-ID: <3A0C3FC1.24334.FFABA9@localhost> > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Europe USA > > # lines 625 525 > > Vertical Freq 50Hz 60Hz > > Horiz Freq 15.625kHz 15.750kHz > > Colour encoding PAL NTSC > > (Subcarrier) 4.43MHz 3.58MHz > Recently we had a computer that was setup for PAL ( B&W ). > We tried it on one of those Sony monitors that has a > select for everything. We never were able to get it > to work. Latter we tried an old black and white monitor > ( well black and green ). We were able to adjust the > vertical and horizontal enough to get it to work. > I guess it really depends on what you expect. I think > the Sony may have been looking for the color burst > or maybe the audio to lock onto. The computer we had > only produced video B&W out. Well, the B&W signal is (with an exeption of the VerticalF/Lines ratio) the same for both - and since the resulting horizontal frequency is (almost) the same, most B&W monitors are able to display NTSC and PAL (or better US and European B&W) with only minor adjustment. A good buy here is an Apple /// screen. Simple, ad still fairly available. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Nov 10 11:34:41 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: OT: _my_ PAL/NTSC question :-) In-Reply-To: <20001108215143.K17975@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> Message-ID: <3A0C3FC1.18539.FFABB8@localhost> > Speaking of PAL... a couple weeks ago I got a VHS movie (Barber of > Siberia... I'm trying to learn Russian and thought it might help) on ebay, > played it on my NTSC VCR, and noticed that the picture looked funny; > people's faces looked like melting plastic, and high-contrast edges were > somewhat haloed, etc. Then I noticed the box was labeled PAL. So I'm > wondering if it was dubbed to NTSC (with poor quality), was the wrong box > for the tape and was actually NTSC despite the labeling, or if my VCR > actually managed to play a PAL tape, with the quality being the result > of the higher-bandwidth video signal going through lower-bandwidth NTSC > electronics, and probably also speeding up the movie by 20% or so? > I didn't think NTSC VCRs could play PAL tapes at all. Well, if it is a Japanese VCR, chances are good that it can play both. They have only a few designs, and they are made to cover all relevant Standards with only minor modifications (additional software, different modulators/filtering) The same is true for most TV sets. At least over here in Europe vitualy every TV and most VCRs found are able to play both, often all three standards (PAL, SECAM and NTSC). Just for the lower price units these features are sometimes disabled. Your description looks like a pure colour problem. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From vcf at siconic.com Fri Nov 10 10:40:23 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Looking for old Mac software Message-ID: Has anyone ever heard of some software for the Mac called "Guide for the Macintosh" by Office Workstations Ltd., circa 1980s? Anyone actually have it? If so, please let me know. Thanks! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Nov 10 11:49:56 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? Message-ID: <20001110.114957.-345631.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:12:07 -0500 Douglas Quebbeman writes: > > >I am restoring a TRS80 model 2000 (1983), one of the rare machines > to > > >use an actual 80186 Intel CPU. > > > > An 80_1_86? Really. I guess I was never aware that there was one > like > > that ever made. I always thought they jumped from the 8086 to the > 80286 > CPU. > > > > Do you have any stats on this little baby? > > Same as the 8086/8086 except: > > slight difference in PUSHF & POPF > has ENTER and LEAVE instructions > > Anyone else remember anything else? Has two *really* fast DMA channels. It was used alot in embedded applications where you hade to move a lot of data really fast. Frequently found on SCSI disk controllers (among other things). The MAD-186 by MAD computers was a PC 'sorta compatible', I used to have (it was re-badged by TELEX). It used an 80186. The 3Com 3Server3 was another computer (well, okay, fileserver) that ran a modified MS-DOS (2.x, IIRC), had embedded SCSI (actually SASI), ethernet, and serial/parallel interfaces. It also used the 80186. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 10 12:31:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Nov 9, 0 05:37:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 706 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001110/a5967856/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 10 12:37:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001110104744.02ab2eb0@binhost.com> from "Tarsi" at Nov 10, 0 10:49:06 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 814 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001110/af77946e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 10 12:54:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Pal and NTSC In-Reply-To: <3A0C3FC1.24334.FFABA9@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Nov 10, 0 06:34:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1751 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001110/1dac1a75/attachment.ksh From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 10 13:28:34 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB326@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > Frank Fink is more the welcome to the bombsight, just send me > the B-17. ;p ROFL! From ncherry at home.net Fri Nov 10 13:38:45 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Tandy 1000 EX Message-ID: <3A0C4EC5.B339A6E6@home.net> All this talk of the Tandy 1000/2000 reminds me; does anyone have a boot disk for this beast? Also what are the internals drives, DS 40 Track or 96? I intend on putting the DOS in ROM (flash) so I can use it as a terminal at the very least. I may also build a LAN interface with an NE2000 clone. Of course this means upgrading to a new DOS but I think I can get freedos working on it. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 10 14:21:31 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Tandy 1000 EX Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB329@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > All this talk of the Tandy 1000/2000 reminds me; does anyone > have a boot disk for this beast? I have two sets of MS-DOS & MS-BASIC for the T2000. Currently, I don't have time to set up the machine to do any duplication, but maybe around Christmas (setting up means finding space to put it, etc). Claude needs a set of copies; if anyone other than Neil needs them, drop me a line and I'll see what I can do as winter sets in. -dq From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com Fri Nov 10 14:29:15 2000 From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Tandy 1000 EX In-Reply-To: <3A0C4EC5.B339A6E6@home.net> References: <3A0C4EC5.B339A6E6@home.net> Message-ID: <0011101430190C.00187@Billbob_linux> Hi, On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, you wrote: > All this talk of the Tandy 1000/2000 reminds me; does anyone have a boot > disk for this beast? My 1000EX boots MS-DOS 2.X or 3.X nicely.. My suggestion: use a generic DOS bootdisk. -- Bill Layer From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Nov 10 15:07:51 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A0C71B7.14619.1C2D7B5@localhost> > >Maybe DHL is flying Junkers Ju-52's or C-47's or maybe even Ford > >Tri-motors? Bizarre... > Ahhhh...to be so lucky as to fly in any of those three! Of > course, the DC-3 is still in pretty heavy use for hauling cargo in > the bush in some areas. Well, there are at least two Ju-52 still flying in Europe - And they are for rent ! So, if you like ... All you need is _some_ Money Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Nov 10 15:19:00 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: "Basics of Analog Computers" book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3A0C7454.20427.1CD0C32@localhost> > So, here's the deal - I will send the book for shipping costs to the best > 37-words-or-less reason for why you want / deserve / would-kill-for this > classic, antique, vintage, pre-Altair, pre-S-100, pre-Intel, pre-historic > tome on analog computers, beautifully illustrated (seriously) with > pen-and-ink drawings on about every other page. Why ? Simply, if I'd remove your life, I'd not only get the book, but also some fine SOLs ... quite a reason, isn't it ? SCNR Hans -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From elvey at hal.com Fri Nov 10 15:19:25 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:42 2005 Subject: Calculo Analog Computer In-Reply-To: <3A0B9C0E.C6C3C7C8@rain.org> Message-ID: <200011102119.NAA06973@civic.hal.com> Marvin wrote: > > Speaking of Analog Computers, anyone know what a Calculo Analog Computer is? > There is currently one on ebay at: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=486764064 Hi It is a slide ruler type of analog device. You dial in two numbers to multiply and adjust the third until the meter nulls. These really aren't worth anything but then my eBay alias is mantisshrimp :-) Later Dwight From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 10 15:34:01 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <20001110.114957.-345631.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > > On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:12:07 -0500 Douglas Quebbeman > writes: > > > >I am restoring a TRS80 model 2000 (1983), one of the rare machines > > to > > > >use an actual 80186 Intel CPU. > > > > > > An 80_1_86? Really. I guess I was never aware that there was one > > like > > > that ever made. I always thought they jumped from the 8086 to the > > 80286 > > CPU. > > > > > > Do you have any stats on this little baby? > > > > Same as the 8086/8086 except: > > > > slight difference in PUSHF & POPF > > has ENTER and LEAVE instructions > > > > Anyone else remember anything else? I believe that the NEC V40 was a drop in (enhanced) replacement for it. - don > Has two *really* fast DMA channels. It was used alot in embedded > applications where you hade to move a lot of data really fast. > Frequently found on SCSI disk controllers (among other things). > > The MAD-186 by MAD computers was a PC 'sorta compatible', I used > to have (it was re-badged by TELEX). It used an 80186. > > The 3Com 3Server3 was another computer (well, okay, fileserver) > that ran a modified MS-DOS (2.x, IIRC), had embedded SCSI (actually > SASI), ethernet, and serial/parallel interfaces. It also used > the 80186. > > > Jeff > > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Fri Nov 10 16:01:31 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: OT: _my_ PAL/NTSC question :-) In-Reply-To: <3A0C3FC1.18539.FFABB8@localhost>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 06:34:41PM +0100 References: <20001108215143.K17975@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> <3A0C3FC1.18539.FFABB8@localhost> Message-ID: <20001110150131.C2710@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> On Fri, Nov 10, 2000 at 06:34:41PM +0100, Hans Franke wrote: > > Speaking of PAL... a couple weeks ago I got a VHS movie (Barber of > > Siberia... I'm trying to learn Russian and thought it might help) on ebay, > > played it on my NTSC VCR, and noticed that the picture looked funny; > > people's faces looked like melting plastic, and high-contrast edges were > > somewhat haloed, etc. Then I noticed the box was labeled PAL. So I'm > > wondering if it was dubbed to NTSC (with poor quality), was the wrong box > > for the tape and was actually NTSC despite the labeling, or if my VCR > > actually managed to play a PAL tape, with the quality being the result > > of the higher-bandwidth video signal going through lower-bandwidth NTSC > > electronics, and probably also speeding up the movie by 20% or so? > > > I didn't think NTSC VCRs could play PAL tapes at all. > > Well, if it is a Japanese VCR, chances are good that it can > play both. They have only a few designs, and they are made to > cover all relevant Standards with only minor modifications > (additional software, different modulators/filtering) The same > is true for most TV sets. At least over here in Europe vitualy > every TV and most VCRs found are able to play both, often all > three standards (PAL, SECAM and NTSC). Just for the lower price > units these features are sometimes disabled. Hmmm. Well mine is a Hitachi from the early 90's (93 maybe?) and was kindof high-end for the time, but not sold as a multi-standard VCR (those kind are still expensive even now, here in the US). I use an Electrohome projector for my TV, so wouldn't be surprised if it is pretty forgiving about the video input. In Europe multi-standard VCRs may be more common because they are much more necessary. Do they automatically detect what kind of tape is being played or is there a switch to select it? If they detect it, I wonder how it's done. I also found a FAQ on the web that says it won't work at all: http://www.cmc.com/lars/dansk/videofaq.htm > > Your description looks like a pure colour problem. Meaning what? The halo effects are somewhat like what happens when you hook up a high-res RGB monitor using a cheap VGA extension cable. So I thought bandwidth compression could very well explain it. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Nov 10 16:10:22 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Homebrewing a digital computer Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001110134602.02e36e40@208.226.86.10> For VCF next year I'm home brewing a digital computer. The goal is to produce something akin to a CARDIAC that could be used by interested students. This is what I have so far, comments/criticisms/suggestions are welcome: -------------- next part -------------- The SIMPLEX Digital Computer V0.5 (November, 2000) ===================================================== by Chuck McManis The SIMPLEX digital computer is a computer educational tool for teaching basic concepts in computation. It has a very easy to understand architecture, a small instruction set, and can be programmed to do several chores. Description: ============ The computer consists of three rotary switches that can be set to the values 0 throuh 9. I would like them to look like the digital selectors on the front of the IBM 360 series machines. Above them is a 3 decimal digit display that is used for "display output". To one side are LEDs that indicate different machine states (fetch, execute, overflow, etc). In an ideal world the output display would be three nixie tubes on the top but that will be difficult to achieve. Architecture ============ The SIMPLEX is a decimal architecture computer (base-10 being easier to understand than base-2) The store consists of 100 memory locations each of which can hold 3 digits. Instructions: 0 - TSKIP Test and Skip Test the accumulator for a specified condition and skip the next instruction if the condition is true/not true Second digit is condition 0 - no condtion 1 - Accumlator not zero 2 - overflow 3 - Accumulator is zero 4 - 9 reserved Third digit is number of instructions to skip 0 - no instructions 1 - one instruction ... 9 - nine instructions. Note: By this definition 000 is Test no condition skip no instructions (ie NOP) 1 - ADD Add Add the contents of memory referenced in the instruction into the accumulator. Example: 122 - Add contents of location 22 to the accumulator. 2 - SUB Subtract Subtract the contents of memory from the accumulator leaving the result in the accumulator. Example: 222 - Subtract the contents of memory location 22 from the accumulator. 3 - STORE Store Store the contents of the accumulator into the referenced memory location. Example: 340 - Store the contents of the accumulator into memory location 40. 4 - CLEAR Reset the accumulator (and flags). Example: 400 - clears the state of the machine. Note: This seems a waste of a major opcode. 5 - BRANCH Load the Program Counter with the number in the instruction Example: 505 - Cause the next instruction fetch to come from memory location 5. 6 - BRANCHI Branch Indirect Load the Program Counter from the contents of memory referenced by the instruction Example: 600 - Cause the next instruction to be fetched from the location stored in memory location 00. 7 - READ Read the contents of an I/O Register into the Accumulator Like the x80 series of machines and others the SIMPLEX has a separate I/O space from memory space. Location '00' in I/O space is the switch register and location 00 as an output is the display. Plans include a drum like I/O device that could be used to load programs into memory. Example: 700 - Read the contents of the switch register and store them into the accumulator. 8 - WRITE Write the contents of the accumulator into an I/O Register. The analog of read but of course the other direction, this instruction copies the accumulator into I/O "space." Example: 800 - Write the contents of the accumulator to the display. 9 - CALL Writes the "next" PC to memory location 0, then jumps to the indicated address. This is the mechanism by which subroutines are called, however there is no stack. So subroutines have to deal with their own re-entrancy issues. Example: 950 - Store the current PC into address 0 and branch to location 50. Note: The "return" instruction is simply a branch indirect from location 0. Memory ------ Memory is addressed as 00 through 99. Each location holds three digits. The accumulator is also three digits. I/O Addresses are two digits, I/O Contents are three digits. The I/O Switch register and display are at I/O location 0 700 - write to display 600 - read switch register Load address Deposit Deposit-next Examine Examine-next Run/Halt - momentary up or down. Displays: Accumulator + Flags Switch Register Program Couner + Memory Contents Add all of the numbers from 1 to 100: CLEAR ADD 99 STORE COUNT STORE TOTAL CLEAR ADD 1 STORE DECREMENT LOOP: CLEAR ADD COUNT SUB DECREMENT STORE COUNT ADD TOTAL STORE TOTAL TSKIPO ZERO,1 BRANCH LOOP WRITE 0,TOTAL BRANCH * ; halt CLEAR ADD 100 STORE COUNT The SIMPLEX PGA ================ The SIMPLEX computer is implemented in a single PGA the I/O pins are as follows: 4 bits -> Digit select 8 bits -> Display data 7 bits -> Memory/IO address 12 bits ->memory/IO data 0 bits -> switch register data (muxed on mem bus) 1 bit -> RD 1 bit -> WR 1 bit -> *IO 2 bits -> deposit / deposit next 2 bits -> examine / examine next 2 bits -> load address / clear all 2 bits -> run/halt 1 bit -> single step 1 bit -> clock --- 44 bits of I/O resources needed. System schematic should consist of the switch register gate, 128 x 12 RAM, Display drivers (8 pnp transistors?) Four center off toggles, one momentary toggle. -------------- next part -------------- From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 10 16:44:38 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: References: <20001110.114957.-345631.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001110174438.0073e390@earthlink.net> At 01:34 PM 11/10/00 -0800, you wrote: >I believe that the NEC V40 was a drop in (enhanced) replacement >for it. Don, I thought that the V40 was supposedly an unreleased drop-in replacement for the 80286, meant to improve performance over the Intel parts the way the earlier chips did for the 8086/88? Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ From lgwalker at look.ca Fri Nov 10 16:48:02 2000 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Pal and NTSC In-Reply-To: <3A0C3FC1.24334.FFABA9@localhost> References: <200011092108.NAA01777@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <3A0C34D2.31124.30E453A@localhost> > > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Europe USA > > > # lines 625 525 > > > Vertical Freq 50Hz 60Hz > > > Horiz Freq 15.625kHz 15.750kHz > > > Colour encoding PAL NTSC > > > (Subcarrier) 4.43MHz 3.58MHz > > > Recently we had a computer that was setup for PAL ( B&W ). > > We tried it on one of those Sony monitors that has a > > select for everything. We never were able to get it > > to work. Latter we tried an old black and white monitor > > ( well black and green ). We were able to adjust the > > vertical and horizontal enough to get it to work. > > I guess it really depends on what you expect. I think > > the Sony may have been looking for the color burst > > or maybe the audio to lock onto. The computer we had > > only produced video B&W out. > > Well, the B&W signal is (with an exeption of the > VerticalF/Lines ratio) the same for both - and since > the resulting horizontal frequency is (almost) the > same, most B&W monitors are able to display NTSC and > PAL (or better US and European B&W) with only minor > adjustment. A good buy here is an Apple /// screen. > Simple, ad still fairly available. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen > http://www.vintage.org/vcfe > http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe > Bingo ! Thanks Hans. ciao larry Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From lgwalker at look.ca Fri Nov 10 16:48:02 2000 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Tandy 1000 EX In-Reply-To: <0011101430190C.00187@Billbob_linux> References: <3A0C4EC5.B339A6E6@home.net> Message-ID: <3A0C34D2.17188.30E455D@localhost> > Hi, > > On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, you wrote: > > All this talk of the Tandy 1000/2000 reminds me; does anyone have a > > boot disk for this beast? > > My 1000EX boots MS-DOS 2.X or 3.X nicely.. My suggestion: use a > generic DOS bootdisk. > > -- > Bill Layer > I've got MSDOS 5 on my 1000SX. The original boot also included Deskmate and like the PS/1 Quadrant Stub, installing MSDOS 5 loses it's settings which IIRC are in the ROM. Tandy apparently still sells the Deskmate boot. With the Tandy CM monitors they gave a much better resolution and color than the CGA. ciao larry ciao larry Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From lgwalker at look.ca Fri Nov 10 16:48:02 2000 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <3A0C1F04.F19422D8@sprint.ca> Message-ID: <3A0C34D2.17641.30E4582@localhost> > Hi > > I am restoring a TRS80 model 2000 (1983), one of the rare machines to > use an actual 80186 Intel CPU. > > I did not have the original keyboard. I have been told that an older > 1000 keyboard (90 key type similar look to 4p keyboard) works fine as > long as you make an adapter cable. > > I have the pin functions for the trs80 2000 5 pin din keyboard > connector but not for the other end...the 8 pin male connector on the > old 1000 keyboard... > > I looked and searched long and hard...all over...anybody got that? > > I am at the point of opening up the keyboard and looking at the > circuit to figure out the pinout but I would like to avoid that... > > Thanks > Claude > > You know about Jeff Helliges M2000 FAQ I believe. Another good site devoted mainly to the 1000 which might have the pinouts is: http://www.oldskool.org/~tvdog/ ciao larry Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 10 16:51:15 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001110104744.02ab2eb0@binhost.com> References: <3A0C1F04.F19422D8@sprint.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001110175115.0073ccd4@earthlink.net> At 10:49 AM 11/10/00 -0600, you wrote: >An 80_1_86? Really. I guess I was never aware that there was one like >that ever made. I always thought they jumped from the 8086 to the 80286 CPU. Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the 80186 was intended to be the transition chip between the 8086 and the i432, though Intel later changed direction and continued on with the 8086 architecture with the 80286 and above. >Do you have any stats on this little baby? I have the full Intel datasheet for the chip, but unfortunately it is currently packed away along with everything else other than the laptop that I'm sending this from. I'm in the process of moving to a new apartment. The basic attributes of the chip can be found on my my website in the FAQs section in my FAQ on the TRS-80 Model 2000. The data in the FAQ's section for the chip was taken directly from the Intel datasheets. Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Nov 10 17:15:48 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20001110175115.0073ccd4@earthlink.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001110104744.02ab2eb0@binhost.com> <3A0C1F04.F19422D8@sprint.ca> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001110151322.02f8eeb0@208.226.86.10> > Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the 80186 was >intended to be the transition chip between the 8086 and the i432, though >Intel later changed direction and continued on with the 8086 architecture >with the 80286 and above. Nope, the 80186 was designed to be a high-integration version of the 8086 architecture to support embedded applications. I was the Systems Validation engineer responsible for it at Intel for a short period of time. It was the first example of a chip that did things in a way that Microsoft hadn't expected and so MS-DOS wouldn't run on it without tweaking. They are also found in the DEC TQK50 controller card. --Chuck From lgwalker at look.ca Fri Nov 10 17:42:27 2000 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Homebrewing a digital computer In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001110134602.02e36e40@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <3A0C4193.14303.34019ED@localhost> > For VCF next year I'm home brewing a digital computer. The goal is to > produce something akin to a CARDIAC that could be used by interested > students. > > This is what I have so far, comments/criticisms/suggestions are > welcome: > Somewhere here in my stuff I have a manual and schematics for a teaching box designed and sold by my former instructor around 81/82. It was meant to replace the ET3400 we used at the time. If you're interested I can dig it up and loan you it in exchange for a scan. I believe it was also based on the 6800 like the Heathkit. ciao larry Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 10 18:07:10 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Lisa Profile Drive emulation on a PC Message-ID: <001b01c04b73$5c4c4b40$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: Phil Budne >I've always wanted to do the same sort of thing for RX02's; fool my >RXV211 into thinking a PC at the other end of the ribbon cable is a >pair of RX02's. It seems feasible using just a parallel port; >despite the width of the ribbon cable, it doesn't carry many signals. Why must it be a parallel port? a M8250 serial would work too though a new "RX" driver to talk to it would be needed. Also the RX01 controller is serial not parallel so that could be used in a different way. In the end any IO can be used if you create a driver to fake a known device. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 10 18:21:48 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: RX02 drive emulation (was RE: Lisa Profile Drive emulation on a PC) Message-ID: <004201c04b75$7d45b0f0$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: Clint Wolff (VAX collector) >I'm looking for a way to access a RX0? drive from a PC! I'd like to >archive all the 8" floppies that came with my '780 (including some >CPM/68K distributions) for long-term preservation. RX01 is SSSD and most pc controllers are problematic with that mostly due to cost cutting. Mest best would be a machine with wd36c65 based chip (with both clocks available) as it can do all rates. You will have to create you own driver for the SSSD. I do it all the time with my CP/M crate (native 8" SSSD support). The varios other 8" formats that did get used may require a WD1771/and/or/WD1793 based controller (very non PC) to read the possible and sometimes oddball formats used. RX02 is a truly unique format and only RX02 (or the few clones) actually can read that (you must have a PDP-8, PDP-11 or VAX in other words) as most are Omnibus, Unibus or Qbus. >Anybody done anything like this? I'm still looking for the pinout >of the 10? pin ribbon cable that comes out of the dual floppy box. 10???? more like 40 for either rx02 or rx01. Allison From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 10 17:18:28 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Homebrewing a digital computer In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001110134602.02e36e40@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > For VCF next year I'm home brewing a digital computer. The goal is to > produce something akin to a CARDIAC that could be used by interested > students. <...> Now THIS is the kind of thing I would like to see at the VCF! Way to go, Chuck!! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 10 18:31:06 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? Message-ID: <008201c04b77$98cd59c0$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: Douglas Quebbeman >> An 80_1_86? Really. I guess I was never aware that there was one like >> that ever made. I always thought they jumped from the 8086 to the 80286 >CPU. >> >> Do you have any stats on this little baby? > >Same as the 8086/8086 except: > > slight difference in PUSHF & POPF > has ENTER and LEAVE instructions > >Anyone else remember anything else? Extended set of IO instructions as well. (V20 had instruction set differences but, they were different!) The major difference was the presence of on chip colock gen, DMA controller (non 8237 compatable), interrupt logic (not totally 8259 compatable). As a result any PC made with it was a bit different. Fast parts went to 12mhz and were also developed in CMOS. The 186 was 16bit wide bus like 8086 and 188 was like the 8088 with 8bit busses. The embedded controller market liked it. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 10 18:25:45 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? Message-ID: <008101c04b77$97ccb2a0$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: Claude >I am restoring a TRS80 model 2000 (1983), one of the rare machines to >use an actual 80186 Intel CPU. Correction and nit, RARE PCs to use 80186. They were widely used for other non PC systems. It was a 8086 with onchip clock gen, memory selects and DMA. Excellent for embeeded uses that were formally 808x, 8224a, 8288. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 10 18:40:53 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? Message-ID: <00c201c04b79$1462d000$0c799a8d@ajp166> >> > slight difference in PUSHF & POPF >> > has ENTER and LEAVE instructions >> > >> > Anyone else remember anything else? > >I believe that the NEC V40 was a drop in (enhanced) replacement >for it. > - don It was similar but not drop in. >> Has two *really* fast DMA channels. It was used alot in embedded DEC TK50 drive used it. Also the TKQ50 inteface did as well. Allison From elvey at hal.com Fri Nov 10 18:56:02 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB324@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <200011110056.QAA07905@civic.hal.com> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > >I am restoring a TRS80 model 2000 (1983), one of the rare machines to > > >use an actual 80186 Intel CPU. > > > > An 80_1_86? Really. I guess I was never aware that there was one like > > that ever made. I always thought they jumped from the 8086 to the 80286 > CPU. > > > > Do you have any stats on this little baby? > > Same as the 8086/8086 except: > > slight difference in PUSHF & POPF > has ENTER and LEAVE instructions > > Anyone else remember anything else? > > -dq Hi It had some hardware to decode memory blocks and also it had 286 like shift instructions. The interrupt table was assigned at zero memory and had some incompatibilities with DOS interrupts that were software interrupts. It often had build in serial as well. It was primarily intended for the embedded market but it was used in some of the personal machines. Dwight From dcoward at pressstart.com Fri Nov 10 19:21:32 2000 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Analog vs Digital devices, was Magnetics Message-ID: <4.1.20001110165604.00c84100@mail.pressstart.com> Two analog computer theads at once. COOOL! Don said: > And rather smaller and lighter than the Navy's Mark 1A (analog) fire > control computer which did a rather precise job of laying 2000# 16" > - - and smaller - projectiles to the desired location. For those that are saying "What's a Mk.1?" - my Ford Instrument page: http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog/fordsperry.htm For more information - The Mark 1 Fire Control Computer: http://www.warships1.com/W-Tech/tech-056.htm --Doug =================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr Software Engineer mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Visit the new Analog Computer Museum and History Center at http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog =================================================== From elvey at hal.com Fri Nov 10 19:33:58 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20001110175115.0073ccd4@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200011110133.RAA07936@civic.hal.com> Jeff Hellige wrote: > At 10:49 AM 11/10/00 -0600, you wrote: > >An 80_1_86? Really. I guess I was never aware that there was one like > >that ever made. I always thought they jumped from the 8086 to the 80286 CPU. > > Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the 80186 was > intended to be the transition chip between the 8086 and the i432, though > Intel later changed direction and continued on with the 8086 architecture > with the 80286 and above. > Hi No, the '186 was specifically designed for embedded use. It came in a number of different flavors. The i432 was completely different. It had a lot of hardware support for ADA's checking, built in. The '186 was code compatable with the '86/'286 processors. Typical embbeded application are like: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=486128027 The neat thing about these is that you could use standard PC development tools, once you figured out how to get it to boot. Dwight From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Nov 10 19:45:41 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: RX02 drive emulation (was RE: Lisa Profile Drive emulation on a PC) In-Reply-To: <004201c04b75$7d45b0f0$0c799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: Thanks for the info Allison... Along the lines of the previous post (which I completed cut out), I'm think about connecting the raw digital data to the parallel port or a custom serial to parallel converter, and parsing it out in software. I work with enough brainy people I should be able to get a PLL and data separator working under matlab... I have a box (dual 8" floppies) that came with the CP/M 68K system that isn't dec, but has RX01 written on the front in majik marker. It has a 10-pin ribbon cable coming out of it. I also have a dual RX02 that came with an 11/23. Can the interface card be used in a uVAX? Before I sell the CP/M 68K system, I want to make sure I keep all the DEC formatted floppies that belong to the '780. clint On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, ajp166 wrote: > From: Clint Wolff (VAX collector) > > > >I'm looking for a way to access a RX0? drive from a PC! I'd like to > >archive all the 8" floppies that came with my '780 (including some > >CPM/68K distributions) for long-term preservation. > > > RX01 is SSSD and most pc controllers are problematic with that > mostly due to cost cutting. Mest best would be a machine with > wd36c65 based chip (with both clocks available) as it can do all > rates. You will have to create you own driver for the SSSD. > > I do it all the time with my CP/M crate (native 8" SSSD support). > > The varios other 8" formats that did get used may require a > WD1771/and/or/WD1793 based controller (very non PC) to read > the possible and sometimes oddball formats used. > > RX02 is a truly unique format and only RX02 (or the few clones) > actually can read that (you must have a PDP-8, PDP-11 or VAX > in other words) as most are Omnibus, Unibus or Qbus. > > >Anybody done anything like this? I'm still looking for the pinout > >of the 10? pin ribbon cable that comes out of the dual floppy box. > > > 10???? more like 40 for either rx02 or rx01. > > Allison > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 10 21:22:02 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: RX02 drive emulation (was RE: Lisa Profile Drive emulation on a PC) Message-ID: <00ee01c04b90$4a0613e0$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: Clint Wolff (VAX collector) >out in software. I work with enough brainy people I should be >able to get a PLL and data separator working under matlab... Thats the easy part. RX02 was a dual density system with the data being recorded in double density (MFM) and the rest of the marks in FM (single density). A PLL that can make that switch is better than good. Hint it was done as DSP in hardware TTL and 2901. Rx01/02 based system (DEC or clone) only read a fixed set of formats and that's it. True RX01 and 02 systems the drive box was semi smart and the cabled to the system where the card there was only a bus interface. I have both real RX02 (also reads RX01) and also CPM crates with "normal" 8" floppies. >a 10-pin ribbon cable coming out of it. I also have a dual RX02 that >came with an 11/23. Can the interface card be used in a uVAX? Yes but software support may not be there depending on version of OS used. >Before I sell the CP/M 68K system, I want to make sure I keep all the >DEC formatted floppies that belong to the '780. Those were as memory serves RX01. Allison From claudew at sprint.ca Fri Nov 10 21:41:23 2000 From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Old computer book found (fascinating reading/photos):Design of Real Time Computer Systems (J.Martin 1967) Message-ID: <3A0CBFE3.ACB34830@sprint.ca> Hi Just taught I would let you know I am reading this : Design of Real Time Computer Systems (1967 J.Martin)found in a thrift store for $2 and it fascinating - at least for me... Just facinated by the photos and the concepts in there...I was 3 at that time (1967) never used computers before I was about 15-16 (model III I am still hunting for one...) Will just have to scan some of these photos for my vintage computer collection web site. I don't have machines from that era but some of these pics are just great!!! Since I have so much space left in my basement (already use 2/3 - I love my wife...) I seem to have now made the very reasonnable decision to extended my vintage computer collection to old books, magazines and manuals...I might have develloped some kind of mental illeness now, I recently mentionned "need more space for computer collection" as a reason to my wife to justify getting a larger house... Claude From marvin at rain.org Fri Nov 10 21:54:56 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Magnum-25 tester formatter References: <00ee01c04b90$4a0613e0$0c799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3A0CC310.C84191C4@rain.org> I acquired a Bell Atlantic Computer Technology Services Magnum-25 disk drive tester/formatter that was manufactured by Doradus Corporation (what a mouthful!) So far, I haven't been able to find out any information about it. Anyone have any information and/or manuals? I also acquired several Dysan drive testers and am in the process of trying to find out more about them. From doug at blinkenlights.com Fri Nov 10 21:45:45 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Calculo Analog Computer In-Reply-To: <3A0B9C0E.C6C3C7C8@rain.org> Message-ID: It's an educational (toy) analog computer made since 1959 or so. Several other similar toys were made by various makers, including radio shack. I'm sure Dwight is thrilled to have it advertised to the list (he was first bidder and current high bidder) -- I'm going to outbid him soon :-) -- Doug On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Marvin wrote: > > Speaking of Analog Computers, anyone know what a Calculo Analog Computer is? > There is currently one on ebay at: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=486764064 > From donm at cts.com Sat Nov 11 00:29:20 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20001110174438.0073e390@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Jeff Hellige wrote: > At 01:34 PM 11/10/00 -0800, you wrote: > >I believe that the NEC V40 was a drop in (enhanced) replacement > >for it. > > Don, > > I thought that the V40 was supposedly an unreleased drop-in replacement > for the 80286, meant to improve performance over the Intel parts the way > the earlier chips did for the 8086/88? You may well be correct in part, Jeff. But since it was used in the Ampro Littleboard/PC I'm sure that it was released. - don From mac at Wireless.Com Sat Nov 11 00:53:05 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Homebrewing a digital computer In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001110134602.02e36e40@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > For VCF next year I'm home brewing a digital computer. The goal is to > produce something akin to a CARDIAC that could be used by interested students. > > This is what I have so far, comments/criticisms/suggestions are welcome: > > > Description: > ============ > The computer consists of three rotary switches that can be set to > the values 0 throuh 9. I would like them to look like the digital > selectors on the front of the IBM 360 series machines. > > Architecture > ============ > > The SIMPLEX is a decimal architecture computer (base-10 being easier > to understand than base-2) The store consists of 100 memory locations > each of which can hold 3 digits. Chuck, this looks like a proto IBM 1401. Rather than inventing a new instruction set, why not teach them a historical instruction set and have them learn about basic computer operations by using the 1401 ISP? Also, the 1401 had similar rotary switches for setting values. -Mike http://1401.org From tcopley at best.com Sat Nov 11 01:10:59 2000 From: tcopley at best.com (Thomas P. Copley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: AUCTION> First Year MITS Altair 8800 - Very clean Message-ID: This 8800 is for sale by the first owners. It has the original switches that are a rare variation--the switch handles are the flattened "paddle" type as used on the 8800b instead of the "bat handle" type usually used on 8800s. It includes a MITS 1K RAM board. The original manual is not included, but is available for an extra, negotiable price. See its Ebay auction at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=491031767 The current bid is $1,725.00 and the reserve has been met. Bidding closes Sunday night. I am located in Berkeley, California. Questions are welcome. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Thomas P. Copley E-mail: tcopley@best.com From schoedel at kw.igs.net Sat Nov 11 01:19:59 2000 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Homebrewing a digital computer In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001110134602.02e36e40@208.226.86.10> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001110134602.02e36e40@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >For VCF next year I'm home brewing a digital computer. The goal is to >produce something akin to a CARDIAC that could be used by interested >students. Neat. I occasionally spend a little time working toward building myself a simple processor. My priorities are rather different, though; I want to make the 'moving parts' visible as far down as is practical and affordable (which for me will probably mean SSI TTL, except for the memory), rather than to make the programming model simple. >[....] In an ideal world the output display would be three >nixie tubes on the top but that will be difficult to achieve. Could one build "nixie tube emulators", for instance using seven-segment LEDs, and then borrow real ones from some other device for special occasions? >4 - CLEAR > Reset the accumulator (and flags). > Example: 400 - clears the state of the machine. > Note: This seems a waste of a major opcode. I've tentatively decided that I'll go for a store-and-clear operation, ? la EDSAC and PDP8, since, in the few sample programs I tried, the value in the accumulator was still needed after fewer than half the stores. This might conflict with your goal of simplicity, but on the other hand, the question of how to retain (regain) the accumulator after a store might make a good 'Exercise 1'. Alternatively you could clear with a STORE,SUB pair, at the cost of a scratch location. >7 - READ After several partial designs than included IN and OUT operations, I decided to punt I/O almost completely. In my current plans, one operation can take the switch register as source, and the accumulator lights (and/or other lights) are the only output. >9 - CALL I have provisionally punted the CALL, too, as a separate operation; instead, the same operation that can load the switch register into the accumulator can similarly load the PC. Unfortunately my current design requires the PC to then be adjusted explicitly in the subroutine. I'm still at the stage of designing and "building" fragments in a simulator, since I have no real experience; I keep making things too complicated, and then backtracking to simply again. (And I don't work on it very often.) My current plan is roughly an 8-bit, stripped-down-PDP8-ish architecture: [0|0|0| | | | | ] halt [0|0|1|u|_|_|n|z] skip if u = U then PC := PC + 1 fi where U := (n = sgn(AC)) and (z = (AC=0)) [0|1|0|_|src|c|s] lac AC := if s then rshift(T) else T fi where T := if c then ~S else S fi where S := {1,AC,PC,SW}[src] [0|1|1| | | | | ] - [1|0|0|i|p| m] and AC := AC & M[MA] [1|0|1|i|p| m] add AC := AC + M[MA] [1|1|0|i|p| m] dca M[MA] := AC, AC := 0 [1|1|1|i|p| m] jmp PC := MA where MA := if i then M[TA] else TA fi where TA := if p then PC+signext(m) else zeroext(m) fi Any bits in the instruction may of course end up complemented depending on the nature of available gates :-) I want to hard-wire this one; if I eventually finish it, next will come a 16-bit (or perhaps 12- or 18- or 24- bit) device with a more sophisticated instruction set and wide dumb microcode in EEPROMs. I do have a couple of devices in a similar spirit, both refugees from the UW EE dept. One is an 8-bit processor, built from TTL on an 8"x14" prototyping board, with point-to-point soldered wire. The ALU is a pair of 74181s, and seems to use 7475s for the registers. There are five sets of 8 LEDs -- memory address register, program counter, instruction register, memory, and accumulator -- plus seven state LEDs, all labelled with pen on masking tape. There are [missing] eight data switches and eight control switches: halt/run, halt/step, halt/step cycle, deposit, examine, "pcl" (pc load, presumably), "acl" (accumulator load), and continue. There's also a jumper area. Unfortunately the device is damaged; besides the missing switches (and no sign of where they were wired in), some of the LEDs are broken or torn off, and a few wires are hanging loose. The wiring is mostly tied in tight bundles between the rows and columns of ICs, so it won't be trivial for me to trace it out fully to repair it (and determine the instruction set). I don't have any documentation. I do have a schematic for (and not the device) an even lower-level 8-bit processor in TTL, pushing everything through a bit-serial adder. A somewhat related 'thing' I picked up last week is some sort of logic trainer. In a clear plastic frame about 12" x 20" x 6" thick, it has six *huge* flip-flops (built with power transistors) each with a pair of output lamps, a jumper area for "programming", and input in the form of a telephone-style dial. (I assume people here know what a telephone dial is :-) Haven't traced this one out yet either, but at its scale it won't be hard. -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From doug at blinkenlights.com Sat Nov 11 00:11:59 2000 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: AUCTION> First Year MITS Altair 8800 - Very clean In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Thomas P. Copley wrote: > The current bid is $1,725.00 and the reserve has been met. Bidding closes > Sunday night. $1725 for an 8080 box? Jeez, I can get a Pentium-3 laptop for that. How big is the hard drive? -- Doug From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 11 01:31:40 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <008201c04b77$98cd59c0$0c799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001111023140.007437c8@earthlink.net> At 07:31 PM 11/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >From: Douglas Quebbeman >>> An 80_1_86? Really. I guess I was never aware that there was one >like >>> that ever made. I always thought they jumped from the 8086 to the >80286 >>CPU. >>> >>> Do you have any stats on this little baby? The following was taken directly from Intel order# 210451-003, dated July 1983 and copyright 1983 by Intel Corporation: + Integrated Feature Set - Enhanced 8086-2 CPU - Clock Generator - 2 Independent, High-Speed DMA Channels - Programmable Interrupt Controller - 3 Programmable 16-bit Timers - Programmable Memory and Peripheral Chip-select Logic - Programmable Wait State Generator - Local Bus Controller + Available in 8 MHz (80186) and cost effective 6 MHz (80186-6) versions. + High-Performance Processor - 2 Times the Performance of the Standard iAPX 86 - 4 Mbyte/Sec Bus Bandwidth Interface + Direct Addressing Capability to 1 MByte Memory + Completely Object Code Compatible with All Existing iAPX 86, 88 Software - 10 New Instruction Types + Optional Numeric Processor Extension - iAPX 186/20 High-Performance 80-bit Numeric Data Processor + The 80186 is housed in a 68-pin, leadless JEDEC type A hermetic chip carrier and required the IDT 3M Textool 68-pin JEDEC socket. Obviously, this is just the very tip of the data, as there are many pages of diagrams and charts in the document that I've not reproduced here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ From mac at Wireless.Com Sat Nov 11 02:15:45 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: [Multics] Message from Corbato Message-ID: This note is from http://www.multicians.org/ What a debt we all owe to Multics! Long live Multics! (1965-2000) -Mike ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A Letter from Prof. Corbats (10/30/00) Dear Multicians, It is hard to believe that the last instance of Multics hardware is about to be extinquished. But of course the influence of Multics has probably achieved immortality through the admirable evolution of Unix and more recently Linux. I have often wondered why we so stubbornly worked so hard to make the system survive. My own take on it is that we were young and wanted to make a dent in the psyche of the industry which in those bad old days was incredibly shortsighted. And I think we did. With the creation and persistence of working systems, Multics became a paradigm for a comprehensive solution to a host of system problems that even today are not fully addressed in many systems. In no particular order, some of the key ideas I think of are: a hierarchal file system, system backup policies, rings and memory protection, symmetric multiprocessing, paging and memory management, dynamic linking, access control, and a full character set. I can think of two reasons Multics survived so long. One was its malleability and evolvability which I attribute to the use of a higher level language (despite PL/1!), the major effort to organize and maintain the system with functional modularity, and the avoidance of cute or obscure names in modules. And the second reason was the idealistic zeal of all the Multicians who worked so hard on a system they believed in. And I think we also owe a special debt of gratitude to the original triumvirate of Bob Fano, Ed David and John Weil who had the guts to start it all, to John Couleur and Ted Glaser for their courage in messing with the hardware when the system was nothing but silly putty, and to Elliott Organick who told the world what we were up to. With fond memories, Corby From flo at rdel.co.uk Sat Nov 11 03:44:24 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? References: Message-ID: <3A0D14F8.13ED8FCC@rdel.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > > Of course there's an 80186, and for that matter an 80188, which is > the same chip with an 8 bit external databus. Both were more widely > used in things like X-terminals, laserprinters, etc rather than PCs > (I seem to remember there was something about the IBM PC architecture > that made it difficult to use an 80186, but I will have to check the > details) Research Machines produced a 80186-based PC called the Nimbus. If there were compatibility issues they may not have been visible in the locked-in education market. From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 11 04:38:38 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <3A0D14F8.13ED8FCC@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: <2687.350T1900T6985537optimus@canit.se> Paul Williams skrev: >Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Of course there's an 80186, and for that matter an 80188, which is >> the same chip with an 8 bit external databus. Both were more widely >> used in things like X-terminals, laserprinters, etc rather than PCs >> (I seem to remember there was something about the IBM PC architecture >> that made it difficult to use an 80186, but I will have to check the >> details) >Research Machines produced a 80186-based PC called the Nimbus. If there >were compatibility issues they may not have been visible in the >locked-in education market. LOL, I actually remember reading a review of the Nimbus in an old issue of Personal Computer World (when it was still a good mag instead of a four- hundred page catalogue for windows software). Didn't it have quite fine graphics? The 80186 was also utilised in the Swedish educational computer COMPIS, designed to run CP/M and the Danish COMAL language. It had high-resoluting graphics (for its time), but was a quite a bad idea, developed by a company run by an old pornographer and given the public contract on dubious grounds. We still had a whole class room filled to the brim with these beasts when I was in classes 7-9, but that room was never used by that time (mid-nineties). What was most interesting about it, apart from its consciously designed non-PC compatibility (so that pupils wouldn't run games, I suppose), was the rather elegant double-box design, with two small, flat boxes (size similar to a Mac LC) stacked on top of each other. One contained diskette units and PSU (IIRC), the other the main board. The monitors were bisync, IIRC, probably to accomodate the various graphics modes. As with all educational machines, they could be networked in order to share printers and disk resources. It was really soon obsolete. I think it was introduced around 1984, but I'd have to check on that. BTW, I am fresh to this list (joined this night), so I hope I'm not explaining something obvious now. I personally collect everything between eight and thirty-two bits, save for standard PCs (I have a faiblesse for MCA machines though), and my flat is filled with eight-biut micros, DEC workstations, STs, Amigas, Macs and PS/2s. Just today I acquired another Mac (SE, though the front claims SE/30) and the remains of an industrial VME-based computer. Are there any VME boffs around here? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. S? ja. Forts?tt bara som du g?r s? kommer du i s?kerhet, och raka dig n?r du kommer hem s? ser du kanske inte ut som en apa. Du kan ju leva ett ombonat liv, t?lja tr?gubbar eller n?t s?nt. Lupin III till Jigen, Lupin den otrolige (Lupin III vs. fukusei ningen), TMS 1978 From transit at lerctr.org Sat Nov 11 05:55:34 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Swedish computers (was: Re: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <2687.350T1900T6985537optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 11 Nov 2000, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > The 80186 was also utilised in the Swedish educational computer COMPIS, > designed to run CP/M and the Danish COMAL language. I never heard of the COMPIS....I do remember a Swedish computer called the ABC-80...never actually saw one of those, but someone wrote an emulator for it...really bad, TRS-80 Model I type graphics but it did have a decent pinball game that someone wrote in BASIC... > It had high-resoluting > graphics (for its time), but was a quite a bad idea, developed by a company > run by an old pornographer and given the public contract on dubious grounds. Whoo-hoo. Do tell... From djg at drs-esg.com Sat Nov 11 12:18:13 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: RX02 drive emulation (was RE: Lisa Profile Drive emulation on a PC) Message-ID: <200011111818.NAA17397@drs-esg.com> > >I'm looking for a way to access a RX0? drive from a PC! I'd like to >archive all the 8" floppies that came with my '780 (including some >CPM/68K distributions) for long-term preservation. > >Anybody done anything like this? I'm still looking for the pinout >of the 10? pin ribbon cable that comes out of the dual floppy box. > >clint > I took the approach of writing a program for the PDP-8 to dump the data out the serial port so I could capture (and restore) the disk images on a PC. If you have an pdp-8 the program dumps the floppies in 8 bit mode so 11 floppies will be correctly dumped also. ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/software/dumprest.zip I haven't spent too much time looking at the interface but most of the smarts are in the drive and serial communication is used to send commands to it. I have a bunch of information on the RX01, the RX02 should be similar. http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/query.pl?Search=rx0&stype=Partial+Word&submit=Submit+Query&fields=id%2Ctitle%2Cdate&debug=0&table=pdp8docs&orderby=sort%2Ctitle Or if that excessivly long link doesn't work search for rx0 at http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/query.pl If you need more I can see if I have more information I haven't scanned, email me with what you are needing. The cable I made to hook my 8 to the DB25 on the RX02 has 22 wires in it, I don't remember how many are grounds. David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Old computers with blinkenlights From owad at applefritter.com Sat Nov 11 13:21:18 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 to Macintosh Message-ID: <20001111192118.30223@mail.lafayette.edu> Does anybody have any experience hooking a TRS-80 Model 100 up to a Mac to exchange files? I have the serial cable and the null modem adapter and I've tried both ClarisWorks and ZTerm, but I just can't get the two to talk. Can anybody offer advice? Thanks, Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 11 14:07:53 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? Message-ID: <011601c04c1b$76968da0$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: Don Maslin >> At 01:34 PM 11/10/00 -0800, you wrote: >> >I believe that the NEC V40 was a drop in (enhanced) replacement >> >for it. >> >> Don, >> >> I thought that the V40 was supposedly an unreleased drop-in replacement >> for the 80286, meant to improve performance over the Intel parts the way >> the earlier chips did for the 8086/88? > >You may well be correct in part, Jeff. But since it was used in the >Ampro Littleboard/PC I'm sure that it was released. It was realeased. I have the NEC data book for V20 through V70. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 11 14:13:00 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: AUCTION> First Year MITS Altair 8800 - Very clean Message-ID: <011b01c04c1d$912fded0$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: Thomas P. Copley >This 8800 is for sale by the first owners. It has the original >switches that are a rare variation--the switch handles are the >flattened "paddle" type as used on the 8800b instead of the "bat >handle" type usually used on 8800s. It includes a MITS 1K RAM board. >The original manual is not included, but is available for an extra, >negotiable price. The switches that were flattend were of the later rev bump, not the very first version. They are essentailly the same part but higher cost (8cents then @ quan 10+). What people forget is there was the 8800, 8800A and 8800B. The A revbump was about a 8months to a year out from first release and had a several desperatly needed fixes. I know I have the early version (SN the 200range) and have built at least three others including an 8800B with friends back then. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 11 14:43:26 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Homebrewing a digital computer Message-ID: <014401c04c21$c57d7860$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: Kevin Schoedel >Neat. I occasionally spend a little time working toward building myself a >simple processor. My priorities are rather different, though; I want to >make the 'moving parts' visible as far down as is practical and >affordable (which for me will probably mean SSI TTL, except for the >memory), rather than to make the programming model simple. In the end buildability means a simple machine, not always a simple programming model. >Could one build "nixie tube emulators", for instance using seven-segment >LEDs, and then borrow real ones from some other device for special >occasions? No. Nixie is one of 10 output (highvoltage very low current) and 7Segment is different in every other way. For an era machine 7 segment using incandescent lamps would be valid! > >>4 - CLEAR >> Reset the accumulator (and flags). >> Example: 400 - clears the state of the machine. >> Note: This seems a waste of a major opcode. > >I've tentatively decided that I'll go for a store-and-clear operation, ? >la EDSAC and PDP8, since, in the few sample programs I tried, the value >in the accumulator was still needed after fewer than half the stores. >This might conflict with your goal of simplicity, but on the other hand, >the question of how to retain (regain) the accumulator after a store >might make a good 'Exercise 1'. PDP-8 or the PDP-5 are a good example of minimal but useful instruction sets. PDP-8 savethe AC and store is done one of two ways. You can use the MQ but that requies three locations. SWP DCA N SWP The tighter version is also compatable across all the PDP 5/8 series. CLL DCA N TAD N Three words still but doesn't use a register that may not exist. >Alternatively you could clear with a STORE,SUB pair, at the cost of a >scratch location. You could have a microcoded bit that if set clears the AC. Depends on the number of bits you have to use. >>7 - READ > >After several partial designs than included IN and OUT operations, I >decided to punt I/O almost completely. In my current plans, one operation >can take the switch register as source, and the accumulator lights >(and/or other lights) are the only output. Limts the machine significantly. >>9 - CALL > >I have provisionally punted the CALL, too, as a separate operation; >instead, the same operation that can load the switch register into the >accumulator can similarly load the PC. Unfortunately my current design >requires the PC to then be adjusted explicitly in the subroutine. Look at how PDP-5/8 and other did it. Since memory was a universal store the first location of the JMS is the subroutine return address. That give a very simple implmentation but a real Jump to Suroutine. JMS SUB1 Breaks down to PC-> SUB1, SUB1->PC, PC+1->, fetch PC makes for simple state logic. >I'm still at the stage of designing and "building" fragments in a >simulator, since I have no real experience; I keep making things too >complicated, and then backtracking to simply again. (And I don't work on >it very often.) My current plan is roughly an 8-bit, >stripped-down-PDP8-ish architecture: Suggestion: Eliminate the ISZ from the PDP8 ops and make IOT and ISZ in to INPUT(to ac) and OUTPUT(from AC). Keep indirect addressing and drop page 0 addressing. AND TAD DCA JMP JMS OPR (skips, shifts, clears, misc ops) INP OUT three bit opcode, one bit for indirect address and 4bits for in page address. Direct addressing 256 bytes using indirect addressing. >Any bits in the instruction may of course end up complemented depending >on the nature of available gates :-) I want to hard-wire this one; if I >eventually finish it, next will come a 16-bit (or perhaps 12- or 18- or >24- bit) device with a more sophisticated instruction set and wide dumb >microcode in EEPROMs. Sounds like fun. >One is an 8-bit processor, built from TTL on an 8"x14" prototyping board, >with point-to-point soldered wire. The ALU is a pair of 74181s, and seems >to use 7475s for the registers. There are five sets of 8 LEDs -- memory >address register, program counter, instruction register, memory, and A good design to look at for simplicity and also to illustrate 8bit machine that could become the microcoded core of something bigger check out the controller used in the RX01. It had all the basic elements and was really simple. A variation of the disign was used in the LA120 printer. >A somewhat related 'thing' I picked up last week is some sort of logic >trainer. In a clear plastic frame about 12" x 20" x 6" thick, it has six >*huge* flip-flops (built with power transistors) each with a pair of >output lamps, a jumper area for "programming", and input in the form of a >telephone-style dial. (I assume people here know what a telephone dial is >:-) Haven't traced this one out yet either, but at its scale it won't be >hard. Aint seen one of those for years. Memory serves there were only a few FFs and verly little other logic. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 11 14:48:30 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: RX02 drive emulation (was RE: Lisa Profile Drive emulation on a PC) Message-ID: <014501c04c21$c65c8dc0$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: David Gesswein >I haven't spent too much time looking at the interface but most of the >smarts are in the drive and serial communication is used to send >commands to it. I have a bunch of information on the RX01, the RX02 should >be similar. Do look. the two are very different. >The cable I made to hook my 8 to the DB25 on the RX02 has 22 wires in it, I >don't remember how many are grounds. Every other one. same for RX01. Different signals though. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 11 14:06:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME In-Reply-To: <2687.350T1900T6985537optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Nov 11, 0 07:45:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1200 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001111/57d94079/attachment.ksh From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 11 15:40:46 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Swedish computers (was: Re: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1576.350T2300T13605589optimus@canit.se> SoCalTip skrev: >On 11 Nov 2000, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> The 80186 was also utilised in the Swedish educational computer COMPIS, >> designed to run CP/M and the Danish COMAL language. >I never heard of the COMPIS....I do remember a Swedish computer called >the ABC-80...never actually saw one of those, but someone wrote an >emulator for it...really bad, TRS-80 Model I type graphics but it did >have a decent pinball game that someone wrote in BASIC... The ABC-80's best feature was its keyboard, which was far more luxurious than anything else on that micro. Indigenous manufacture is also a great selling point. In fact, in 1982, the ABC 800 (sucessor to the ABC 80) was the dominating personal computer in Sweden. The following year, the IBM PC was introduced, and drove Luxor out of the market. The holy grail of Luxor computing would be the ABC 1600, though. 68008 processor high-resoluting workstation (with mouse) running ABCnix (SVR3?). >> It had high-resoluting >> graphics (for its time), but was a quite a bad idea, developed by a company >> run by an old pornographer and given the public contract on dubious >> grounds. >Whoo-hoo. Do tell... I think I've got an article about the affair in a pamphlet from Hogia's now defunct computer museum. In case it's of any interest. BTW, did you know that there actually was a language released two or three years ago called Socal (WRT your nickname)? I believe it was some kind of mix between Pascal and m68k assembly. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Life begins at '030. Fun begins at '040. Impotence begins at '86. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 11 16:03:05 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME Message-ID: <015601c04c2b$cad4c3e0$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: Tony Duell >Why limit yourself to 8-32 bits, though? What's wrong with 4 bit >machines, 64 bit machines, etc :-). I have a few of the former (mostly as >embedded systems in measuring instruments). Can't hink of anything I've >got wit a wider-than-32 bit data path, but I certainly wouldn't refuse >such a machine... Yes, 10, 18, 24 bits are some of the more interesting of the oldies. I've found with builing or at least designing on paper that unless you want to do an existing machine there is little reason to do what others have. Sizes like 8 and 24 bits are very useful but 4bits can make the ALU core very simple without ruling out complex capability (though slow). The other direction is control oriented machines that are programable but otherwise specific. Allison From donm at cts.com Sat Nov 11 17:44:00 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Magnum-25 tester formatter In-Reply-To: <3A0CC310.C84191C4@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Marvin wrote: > > I acquired a Bell Atlantic Computer Technology Services Magnum-25 disk drive > tester/formatter that was manufactured by Doradus Corporation (what a > mouthful!) So far, I haven't been able to find out any information about it. > Anyone have any information and/or manuals? I also acquired several Dysan > drive testers and am in the process of trying to find out more about them. Is that the PAT-2+? I have a manual for it if I can answer any questions for you. My recollection is that its use is fairly intuitive, though. - don From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 11 17:59:39 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Does anyone have... Message-ID: Okay, since nobody had a Newton Messagepad 2000/2100 they wanted to get rid of, does anybody have an Atari Portfolio, Poquet PC, or even a Tandy Model 200 with storage media & appropriate hardware to transfer my stuff to a PC that they want to get rid of for cheap, please let me know at the e-mail address provided above. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3, Disto 512K RAM board. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From donm at cts.com Sat Nov 11 18:20:06 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:43 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <00c201c04b79$1462d000$0c799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, ajp166 wrote: > >> > slight difference in PUSHF & POPF > >> > has ENTER and LEAVE instructions > >> > > >> > Anyone else remember anything else? > > > >I believe that the NEC V40 was a drop in (enhanced) replacement > >for it. > > - don > > > It was similar but not drop in. Was the pinout different, Allison? I have both the LB-186 and LB/PC. The LB-186 is PLCC, while the LB/PC (V40) is SMT, but both look to have a like number of contacts. - don > >> Has two *really* fast DMA channels. It was used alot in embedded > > > DEC TK50 drive used it. Also the TKQ50 inteface did as well. > > Allison > > > From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 11 18:41:38 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2148.351T1900T1015429optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> BTW, I am fresh to this list (joined this night), so I hope I'm not expla= >> ining >> something obvious now. >Welcome to the list ! Oh, I think i'll feel right at home here. ^_^ >> I personally collect everything between eight and thirty-two bits, save f= >> or >> standard PCs (I have a faiblesse for MCA machines though), and my flat is >> filled with eight-biut micros, DEC workstations, STs, Amigas, Macs and PS= >I think most of us have the same problem. I prefer minicomputers with >CPUs built from lots of simple TTL chips (just the thing to attack with a >logic analyser), so I've got 19" racks everywhere... >Why limit yourself to 8-32 bits, though? What's wrong with 4 bit >machines, 64 bit machines, etc :-). I have a few of the former (mostly as >embedded systems in measuring instruments). Can't hink of anything I've >got wit a wider-than-32 bit data path, but I certainly wouldn't refuse >such a machine... I really can't say that I have encountered any such machines. Would a PC-500 (standard chipset) Pong console be of such a design, or perhaps even simpler? I don't think I could form any relationship to a 4-bitter, either. I wouldn't mind a 64-bitter for NetBSD purposes, though. 26-bitters are also on my wish list. =) In case you're fond of odd minis, why not a 36-bitter? Have a look at http://www.36bit.org/. >> /2s. >> Just today I acquired another Mac (SE, though the front claims SE/30) and= >> the >> remains of an industrial VME-based computer. Are there any VME boffs arou= >> nd >> here? >I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I've got a few VME bits around >here, mostly expansion cards on Torch machines (XXX, QuadX). I had to throw away my mystery 68020 VME based network thingamajiggy when I moved, but these systems, despite being built with an open bus, are about as closed as you can get. =( -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Wenn ich ein Junge w?r / das wu?te ich so gut / was so ein junger Boy / aus lauter Liebe tut /?ich w?rde in die Schwulenscene gehn /?und sexy Boys den Kopf verdrehn / ich h?tt genug Verkehr / wenn ich ein Junge w?r. Wenn ich ein Junge w?hr - Nina Hagen From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Sat Nov 11 19:09:35 2000 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: RML LINK 480Z with network connection Message-ID: <3A0DEDCF.392B2970@tinyworld.co.uk> I've just acquired another 480Z, but this one powers up with the words "Z-NET Firmware Vers 1.1q", and there is a BNC connector on the back. Would I be right in thinking that this is a Research Machines proprietary network? The other good news is that I've got a working 5.25" disk drive with it, and a single disk, for an educational Viking game. (I thought that the machine dated from 1984, but perhaps I'm a thousand years out). Instead of typing "R" to run BASIC from ROM, you can type "B", and it boots CP/M from disk, loads another version of BASIC, and then runs the game. I can then exit the game and use CP/M, which is something I've not done for 15 years. Oddly enough, the 480Z talks to the disk drive through the serial port. The disk drive also contains another serial port, which I've yet to experiment with. As with my other 480Z, the high resolution graphics only displays in black and white on a television. I've still not made up a monitor cable, despite asking for (and getting) the TTL RGB pinouts many months ago, so I don't know whether it will produce a colour display at all. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 11 19:52:27 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? Message-ID: <017a01c04c4c$86684620$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: Don Maslin >Was the pinout different, Allison? I have both the LB-186 and >LB/PC. The LB-186 is PLCC, while the LB/PC (V40) is SMT, but both look >to have a like number of contacts. > - don Not all the same pin functions. Some internal differences, V40 has async serial IO for example. Nicer part. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Nov 11 19:57:53 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: RX02 drive emulation (was RE: Lisa Profile Drive emulation on a PC) In-Reply-To: <014501c04c21$c65c8dc0$0c799a8d@ajp166> References: <014501c04c21$c65c8dc0$0c799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20001112015753.16165.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote about the DEC RX01 and RX02 drives being different: > Do look. the two are very different. [...] > Every other one. same for RX01. Different signals though. I don't have documentation, so I'm not disputing that, but this makes me very curious. How is it that the RX8-E card (M8357) can deal with any of: 1) RX01 2) RX02 in RX01 mode 3) RX02 in RX02 mode From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 11 20:05:19 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME Message-ID: <017f01c04c4e$9ff49420$0c799a8d@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Iggy Drougge >I really can't say that I have encountered any such machines. Would a PC-500 >(standard chipset) Pong console be of such a design, or perhaps even simpler? You serious? Get real. Chipset, bah! I'm talking about pre chipset stuff of CDC Cyber and Univax1180, PB250. >I don't think I could form any relationship to a 4-bitter, either. I wouldn't Your being far to narrow as 4bit could be the ALU path and the rest of the machine any size. >mind a 64-bitter for NetBSD purposes, though. 26-bitters are also on my wish Boring. Forget 26 bitters unix was not their thing. Allison From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 11 20:47:33 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME In-Reply-To: <017f01c04c4e$9ff49420$0c799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <1006.351T1650T2275731optimus@canit.se> ajp166 skrev: >>I really can't say that I have encountered any such machines. Would a >PC-500 >>(standard chipset) Pong console be of such a design, or perhaps even >simpler? >You serious? Get real. Chipset, bah! I'm talking about pre chipset >stuff of >CDC Cyber and Univax1180, PB250. Univax never made pong machines to the best of my knowledge. ;-) >>I don't think I could form any relationship to a 4-bitter, either. I >wouldn't >Your being far to narrow as 4bit could be the ALU path and the rest of >the >machine any size. I can't say that I've ever encountered such a system. And what would the applications be? >>mind a 64-bitter for NetBSD purposes, though. 26-bitters are also on my >wish >Boring. Forget 26 bitters unix was not their thing. Tell that to the NetBSD/arm26 crowd. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. > well, maybe if it contained ChibiChibi-JarJar pairing.. Okay, so now I'm thinking about a threesome between ChibiChibi, Jar-Jar and Pikachu. You bastard. A. Jones From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 11 21:00:20 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: RX02 drive emulation (was RE: Lisa Profile Drive emulation on a PC) Message-ID: <019001c04c54$edd1b000$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: Eric Smith > >I don't have documentation, so I'm not disputing that, but this >makes me very curious. How is it that the RX8-E card (M8357) can deal >with any of: > >1) RX01 >2) RX02 in RX01 mode >3) RX02 in RX02 mode The board has dual interface modes. The RX02 has multiple modes as well. The best way to no results is to try a RX02 in a Qbus box with RX01 controller. Made that error once, wasted a lot of time even though it hurt nothing. Allison From schoedel at kw.igs.net Sat Nov 11 20:52:06 2000 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: Homebrewing a digital computer In-Reply-To: <014401c04c21$c57d7860$0c799a8d@ajp166> References: <014401c04c21$c57d7860$0c799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: (On Chuck McManis' design) >>Could one build "nixie tube emulators", for instance using seven-segment >>LEDs, and then borrow real ones from some other device for special >>occasions? > >No. Nixie is one of 10 output (highvoltage very low current) and >7Segment is different in every other way. For an era machine 7 segment >using incandescent lamps would be valid! Sorry, I didn't express myself clearly. In Chuck's machine the displayed value comes from a 12 line I/O bus. He could build two different display devices to attach to the bus: one for everyday use, with LEDs and bcd-to-7-segment decoders, and one special occasions, with decoders and drivers and sockets for the nixie tubes that he borrows from whatever machine they otherwise belong to. >>>4 - CLEAR >>> Reset the accumulator (and flags). >>> Example: 400 - clears the state of the machine. >>> Note: This seems a waste of a major opcode. > > [....] > >You could have a microcoded bit that if set clears the AC. Depends >on the number of bits you have to use. Yes, he could make 4xx an encoded operation (like pdp8 operate instructions) such that 400 happens to perform a clear. Or he could make 4xx load the accumulator with 0xx, so that 400 is again a clear; this may fit the spirit of the design better. In either case he need not disclose the extra features at first :-) (On mine) >>After several partial designs than included IN and OUT operations, I >>decided to punt I/O almost completely. [...] > >Limts the machine significantly. Yes. But since I'm doing a pure 8-bit machine, including 8-bit memory address, it's *already* limited significantly. I do currently have one unassigned opcode, so I could add an I/O instruction if it turns out I have enough board space. More likely I'll just move on to design #2, where I can hide complexity in microcode. >>I have provisionally punted the CALL, too, as a separate operation; >> [...] > >Look at how PDP-5/8 and other did it. [...] > PC-> SUB1, SUB1->PC, PC+1->, fetch PC Yes, I'm still considering something like that, though I'd probably keep it simpler, and just leave the PC in the accumulator: PC->AC, MA->PC. I know this probably seems absurdly stripped down to anyone who already knows what they're doing, but I don't, so I want to keep the control very, very basic, to reduce the chance of serious errors. >Suggestion: >Eliminate the ISZ from the PDP8 ops and make IOT and ISZ in to >INPUT(to ac) and OUTPUT(from AC). I'm fairly sure I'll leave out I/O from this first design, and I'd prefer to have 4/8 or at worst 6/8 memory operations to keep decoding simple. >Keep indirect addressing and drop page 0 addressing. I think you're right. I know my current addressing scheme is too complicated, and I no longer know why I've been so reluctant to give up page 0 addressing. Do you have any comment on PC-page (upper bits from PC, lower bits from instruction) versus PC-relative (PC + lower bits from instruction, either sign extended or not)? -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 11 21:09:06 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: RX02 drive emulation (was RE: Lisa Profile Drive emulation on a PC) Message-ID: <019301c04c55$ed346920$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: Eric Smith > >I don't have documentation, so I'm not disputing that, but this >makes me very curious. How is it that the RX8-E card (M8357) can deal >with any of: > >1) RX01 >2) RX02 in RX01 mode >3) RX02 in RX02 mode The board has dual interface modes. The RX02 has multiple modes as well. The best way to no results is to try a RX02 in a Qbus box with RX01 controller. Made that error once, wasted a lot of time even though it hurt nothing. >From the standpoint of building a machine from the ttl ground up the RX01 drive controller is a great example of what can be done with little. Instruction set is: WBS (wait, branch, stall IO) DO (do pulse, xx,xxxx bits) JMP (to field X) CBR (conditional branch) It's mildly horizontally code and also verticle coded. Uses 74181 (x2) for the 8bit alu and a pair of 7489s for registers. instruction word is 8bits. Ran fast enough to decode/encode FDC data in real time. Allison From louiss at gate.net Sat Nov 11 21:25:52 2000 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: Electrohome RGB monitor In-Reply-To: <019001c04c54$edd1b000$0c799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <200011120325.WAA287166@shasta.gate.net> Well, for $2 I picked up an Electrohome RGB monitor, Model 38-G12003-60, made by JVC in Japan in 1982. By the looks of the case colors and the connector, my guess is that this is an Apple II/III monitor. My real hope is this is one of the few monitors that can hook up directly with an Apple III, and produce the right RGB colors without any adapter. Does anyone know? Does the pinout of the RGB connector match that of an Apple III? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Louis From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 11 21:59:47 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME Message-ID: <01ad01c04c5e$53d727a0$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: Iggy Drougge >>You serious? Get real. Chipset, bah! I'm talking about pre chipset >>stuff of >>CDC Cyber and Univax1180, PB250. > >Univax never made pong machines to the best of my knowledge. ;-) No but spacewar on the 1180 was not to bad. >I can't say that I've ever encountered such a system. And what would the >applications be? HP pocket clacs, Microwave ovens, quite a few games, small army of control aps. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 11 22:31:02 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: Homebrewing a digital computer Message-ID: <01b001c04c61$60fdfa50$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: Kevin Schoedel >Sorry, I didn't express myself clearly. In Chuck's machine the >displayed value comes from a 12 line I/O bus. He could build two >different display devices to attach to the bus: one for everyday use, >with LEDs and bcd-to-7-segment decoders, and one special occasions, >with decoders and drivers and sockets for the nixie tubes that he >borrows from whatever machine they otherwise belong to. You can but nixies are a pita to drive. Of era lamping would be bulb per bit. cheaper too. >Yes, he could make 4xx an encoded operation (like pdp8 operate >instructions) such that 400 happens to perform a clear. Or he could >make 4xx load the accumulator with 0xx, so that 400 is again a clear; >this may fit the spirit of the design better. In either case he need >not disclose the extra features at first :-) Exactly. Or the feature could be enabled/disables using a OPR like instruction. >Yes. But since I'm doing a pure 8-bit machine, including 8-bit memory >address, it's *already* limited significantly. I do currently have one >unassigned opcode, so I could add an I/O instruction if it turns out I >have enough board space. More likely I'll just move on to design #2, >where I can hide complexity in microcode. You'll find it doesnt hide. The features grow to increase complexity. ;) > >Yes, I'm still considering something like that, though I'd probably >keep it simpler, and just leave the PC in the accumulator: PC->AC, >MA->PC. I know this probably seems absurdly stripped down to anyone who >already knows what they're doing, but I don't, so I want to keep the >control very, very basic, to reduce the chance of serious errors. Not an unreasonable way. Worth considering as it has good register economy. >I think you're right. I know my current addressing scheme is too >complicated, and I no longer know why I've been so reluctant to give up >page 0 addressing. With say n-bit word and n-bit indirect address page 0 is more efficient but not required. What it does do for short words like 8bit it eats a bit that could be an address. >Do you have any comment on PC-page (upper bits from >PC, lower bits from instruction) versus PC-relative (PC + lower bits >from instruction, either sign extended or not)? Both work. If you're using an indirect address (like PDP-8) then go with PC-page as it much simpler. PC-relative is ok but requires an adder (or more gating to reuse the only adder). If there is one trick to keeping things simple, the fewer paths and gating of things will help simplify. Allison From fuzznut at resspc134-189.canberra.edu.au Sun Nov 12 01:30:22 2000 From: fuzznut at resspc134-189.canberra.edu.au (fuzznut@resspc134-189.canberra.edu.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: Lisa 2/10 Dates Message-ID: Hi All, I've just started following this list again after a 6month absence. Anyway, I recently picked up a very nice Lisa 2/10 in working order with all its docs/manuals/disks etc. I simply followed the advice of people on this list to "put an ad in the paper", and after a couple of goes I was rewarded with this machine. I have it currently up and running with Lisa 7/7 v3.1 and Lisa Pascal Workshop. I have one strange thing about it tho, it is a 2/10 which I thought were relased in early 1984, however the case has a manufactured date of "4282", is this a 1982 date or something else? Also, was there any 3rd party software for the Lisa available, and is there still any out there? Oh yeah, it also has a AST RAMstak card, giving it 2mb. Regards, Karl From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Nov 12 03:25:10 2000 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (jos.mar) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: Off topic but interesting?? Magnetics References: <3A0C71B7.14619.1C2D7B5@localhost> Message-ID: <3A0E61F6.72F0E991@bluewin.ch> > Well, there are at least two Ju-52 still flying in Europe - And > they are for rent ! So, if you like ... All you need is _some_ Money > Still better, 3 JU52 fly twice a week for touristic trips through the alps starting from Zurich-Dubendorf. They even have their original engines... Flights are around the 150USD mark for 2 hours. Info on www.ju-air.com And a little bit of competion is always good, so another xompany operates 2 DC-3 from Zurich main airport, also for touristic trips. Info on www.classic-air.ch Jos Dreesen From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Nov 12 08:51:01 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: Does anyone have... In-Reply-To: from David Vohs at "Nov 11, 0 11:59:39 pm" Message-ID: <200011121451.GAA09524@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Okay, since nobody had a Newton Messagepad 2000/2100 they wanted to get rid > of, does anybody have an Atari Portfolio, Poquet PC, or even a Tandy Model > 200 with storage media & appropriate hardware to transfer my stuff to a PC > that they want to get rid of for cheap, please let me know at the e-mail > address provided above. You can pick up an HP 95LX on eBay pretty cheap, and those are excellent palmtop PCs also. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- It is necessary to have purpose. -- Alice #1, Star Trek "I, Mudd" ---------- From lkinzer at sciti.com Sun Nov 12 09:57:25 2000 From: lkinzer at sciti.com (Lowell Kinzer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 to Macintosh In-Reply-To: <20001111192118.30223@mail.lafayette.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001112074417.00af26c0@popmail.ltsp.com> At 11:21 AM 11/11/00, Tom Owad wrote: >Does anybody have any experience hooking a TRS-80 Model 100 up to a Mac >to exchange files? I have the serial cable and the null modem adapter >and I've tried both ClarisWorks and ZTerm, but I just can't get the two >to talk. > >Can anybody offer advice? > >Thanks, >Tom > >Applefritter >www.applefritter.com Here are a few resources you might want to look at: Me and my M100 http://oly.chem.yale.edu/m100/m100.html Using the Serial Transfer Application http://www.primate.wisc.edu/computer/serial-transfer.html Macintosh: Tandy 100 and 102 Connectivity http://til.info.apple.com/tilarchive.nsf/artnum/n3852 Club 100 Computer-to-Computer File Transfers http://www.the-dock.com/c100/twe/c2c00.html Good luck! Best regards, Lowell Kinzer lkinzer@sciti.com From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Nov 12 11:14:54 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: Lisa 2/10 Dates References: Message-ID: <00dd01c04ccc$13cb3de0$1212f4d8@Smith.earthlink.net> > Also, was there any 3rd party software for the Lisa available, and is > there still any out there? > I have a software package for the Lisa 2 called "Art Department -- A library of Graphic Images for LisaDraw" sold by "Business and Professional Software, Inc." copyright 1983. Basically, it is two 3 1/2 inch disks containing 300 or so images. The original price sticker is still on mine -- $195.00. From jforbes at primenet.com Sun Nov 12 12:03:11 2000 From: jforbes at primenet.com (J Forbes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: Intro and Nixies Message-ID: <3A0EDB5F.7A475E55@primenet.com> Hi, I've been lurking for a week or so. I'm not a computer guy per se...my brothers got that! but I pick up some stuff. I have basement full of mostly mid 80s 8088 boxes, as well as some Kaypro cp/m machines, and some newer wintel machines. See: http://www.primenet.com/~jforbes/ for an (incomplete) overview. As for Nixies and home brew computer displays, one of my brothers is into Nixie tubes, so I've kept a lookout for them...and recently found an old piece of Danish test equipment with 5 nixies in it, which was destined to go to the landfill. It had been sitting outside, and was not in very good condition...but I pulled the display board out, and it seems to be usefull (see link above for a pic). If you want to drive Nixies from a TTL BCD signal, just score some 74141 type devices, they were made for the task! Also....I was digging thru some old stuff while cleaning in the basement, and found a Motorola 6802, 1982 vintage. I wonder if it's usefull? Jim Forbes in Arizona From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sun Nov 12 12:33:25 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: DEC Pro350 available. In-Reply-To: <00dd01c04ccc$13cb3de0$1212f4d8@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Contact person below; not me. I live in the Appleton area and can probably assist with shipping if needed. From swperk at earthlink.net Sun Nov 12 12:45:26 2000 From: swperk at earthlink.net (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:44 2005 Subject: Looking for a couple of HP 7475A plotter parts References: <39C66CE2.4997ADBA@timharrison.com> <39C67E15.7EC241F3@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3A0EE546.2392AA54@earthlink.net> Hello, I'm trying to resurrect an old HP 7475A, and I need a couple of parts: 1) the 6 pen carousel 2) the black plastic cap that goes on the left end (nearest the carousel) of the rod that rotates in order to raise and lower the pen. The pin that stick out of the end of the cap has broken off. I was going to try to rebuild it with a short length of brass or plastic rod, but if there's a spare out there, it would save me a lot of trouble. Thanks in advance, Stan Perkins From leec at slip.net Sun Nov 12 13:04:52 2000 From: leec at slip.net (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Looking for a couple of HP 7475A plotter parts In-Reply-To: <3A0EE546.2392AA54@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Wierd Stuff warehouse in Sunnyvale CA has a couple of these in the back. Lee Courtney President Monterey Software Group Inc. 1350 Pear Avenue, Suite J Mountain View, California 94043-1302 U.S.A. 650-964-7052 voice 650-964-6735 fax Advanced Authentication, Audit, and Access Control Tools and Consulting for HP3000 Business Servers http://www.editcorp.com/Businesses/MontereySoftware > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Stan Perkins > Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 10:45 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Looking for a couple of HP 7475A plotter parts > > > Hello, > > I'm trying to resurrect an old HP 7475A, and I need a couple of parts: > > 1) the 6 pen carousel > 2) the black plastic cap that goes on the left end (nearest the > carousel) of the rod that rotates in order to raise and lower the pen. > The pin that stick out of the end of the cap has broken off. I was going > to try to rebuild it with a short length of brass or plastic rod, but if > there's a spare out there, it would save me a lot of trouble. > > Thanks in advance, > Stan Perkins > From claudew at sprint.ca Sun Nov 12 13:35:30 2000 From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Wanted:TRS80 mod III/IV floppy controller or floppy kit Message-ID: <3A0EF102.FF8B2262@sprint.ca> Hi Finally picked up a TRS80 mod III for a realistic price. The first home computer I used when I was 15-16. It feels great... Works 100%, bright no-burn tube, 48k. Except for little bit of silver finish off front of keyboard, this unit is perfect. But, it's a no floppy system... I am looking for the floppy disk kit (including floppy mounting bracket if possible) or just a controller or even the controller schematic for a mod III or IV...Would probably install external floppies to keep case in original shape rather then make-up a mounting bracket for the drives if I cant find one... Thanks for reading Claude From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Nov 12 13:30:22 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Wanted:TRS80 mod III/IV floppy controller or floppy kit In-Reply-To: <3A0EF102.FF8B2262@sprint.ca> (message from Claude on Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:35:30 -0500) References: <3A0EF102.FF8B2262@sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20001112193022.1159.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Finally picked up a TRS80 mod III for a realistic price. The first home [...] > But, it's a no floppy system... I don't think a Model IV floppy controller will help you much, since it's built into the main logic board. For the Model III, in addition to the official Radio Shack controller, there were a lot of third-party controllers. > I am looking for the floppy disk kit (including floppy mounting bracket > if possible) or just a controller You'll also need to install an additional power supply. The disk system uses its own so that they could use a small cheap supply for non-disk units. From mark_k at iname.com Sun Nov 12 14:01:55 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Pal and NTSC Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Nov 2000 Lawrence Walker wrote: > I have an old famicon game system that is PAL-compliant. > Other than a PAL/NTSC converter or PAL TV is there any way of > hooking this up. ? Yes. > I do have a kaleidoscopic collection of monitors as well as > several VCR tape decks and a JDH Videomate external VGA/TV > adapter which allows me to use my NEC multisync as an all- > purpose viewer. It has an H-Phase pot whose response on the > monitor is a shift to the side of the display and otherwise not > causing any picture distortion. I recall on my Atari there were > programs that shifted from 60mhz to 50mhz and allowed you to > play PAL formatted games, but in this case there is no computer > intervention with the JDH. It is a straight-thru switch. The main issue here is the colour encoding. If you could get a usable display from your Atari in 50Hz mode, you will get a usable display from the Famicom. If your VGA/TV converter only understands NTSC colour encoding, the picture will be in black-and-white. (Assuming that it works with a 50Hz/625 line picture.) You can get analogue NTSC-to-PAL colour standard converters, which only change the colour encoding, not the number of lines per field, for about US$80 if I remember rightly; I believe MCM Electronics sell something like that. Short of making/buying a PAL-to-RGB decoder, that is what you want and would give better results more expensive standards converters. Depending on exactly which console you have, it may be possible to modify it to give true NTSC output; some Famicom clone consoles have this capability, but a real one does not. Oh, if your Famicom only has RF output, you'll need a TV tuner that is compatible with its signal. [Contact me by email if you need more help, and give a description of the console.] -- Mark From owad at applefritter.com Sun Nov 12 14:23:18 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 100 to Macintosh In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001112074417.00af26c0@popmail.ltsp.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001112074417.00af26c0@popmail.ltsp.com> Message-ID: <20001112202318.32704@mail.lafayette.edu> >Here are a few resources you might want to look at: > >Me and my M100 >http://oly.chem.yale.edu/m100/m100.html > >Using the Serial Transfer Application >http://www.primate.wisc.edu/computer/serial-transfer.html > >Macintosh: Tandy 100 and 102 Connectivity >http://til.info.apple.com/tilarchive.nsf/artnum/n3852 > >Club 100 >Computer-to-Computer File Transfers >http://www.the-dock.com/c100/twe/c2c00.html Thanks. Those are much more helpful pages than the ones I managed to find. It turned I was configuring the Model 100 incorrectly. I'm also using Termulator instead of ClarisWorks or ZTerm, as it seems better at capturing text. Glad to finally get this working; thanks! Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 12 14:58:07 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Intro and Nixies Message-ID: <020d01c04cec$28693430$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: J Forbes >It had been sitting outside, and was not in very good >condition...but I pulled the display board out, and it seems to >be usefull (see link above for a pic). If you want to drive >Nixies from a TTL BCD signal, just score some 74141 type >devices, they were made for the task! I would also comment that there is a great deal of test equipment that use nixies that with maintence last for many years. My Yasu 350mhz counter is still going and it's 26 years old. Nixies have a good life. However 74141s are getting scarce. >basement, and found a Motorola 6802, 1982 vintage. I wonder if >it's usefull? Why not. I just finished an ELF (using nwer parts) and my CDP1802 chip from 1979 is still good. Allison From r.stek at snet.net Sun Nov 12 15:25:45 2000 From: r.stek at snet.net (Robert Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: HP 85 available Message-ID: If anyone is interested, I have an HP 85 available. It works intermittently - it's nothing that re-seating the chips in their sockets fixes! The printer works - don't know about the tape drive. I can pack it, but you will need to pay shipping (and promise to send me your next 'extra' Altair ). I can also throw in a new roll of thermal paper (besides the remainder of what is in the unit). I'm near Hartford, CT. email me privately with any bribes. Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 12 15:13:42 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: RML LINK 480Z with network connection In-Reply-To: <3A0DEDCF.392B2970@tinyworld.co.uk> from "Paul Williams" at Nov 12, 0 01:09:35 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1706 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001112/d9be72f3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 12 15:19:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME In-Reply-To: <2148.351T1900T1015429optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Nov 12, 0 05:45:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1225 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001112/cb9e2cfd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 12 15:44:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Wanted:TRS80 mod III/IV floppy controller or floppy kit In-Reply-To: <20001112193022.1159.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 12, 0 07:30:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1741 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001112/dac9b5df/attachment.ksh From gaz_k at lineone.net Sat Nov 11 10:58:54 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: OT: _my_ PAL/NTSC question :-) References: <20001108215143.K17975@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> <3A0C3FC1.18539.FFABB8@localhost> <20001110150131.C2710@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> Message-ID: <000601c04cf2$fe065b80$0101010a@pentium2> Shawn T. Rutledge > In Europe multi-standard VCRs may be more common because they are > much more necessary. Until recently multi-standard VCRs were located in the high-end of the market. I only began to notice it appearing in cheaper models about three years ago. It depends upon the manufacturer- the VCR i bought last year does not support NTSC but my parents' three year old model does. Perhaps I could flash the bios. ;) > Do they automatically detect what kind of tape is being played > or is there a switch to select it? If they detect it, I wonder > how it's done. You can enable/disable the option on a menu screen. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com If you have sent email to me during the past two months and I have not replied, please resend it. From azog at azog.org Sun Nov 12 16:46:29 2000 From: azog at azog.org (Billy D'Augustine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: passive backplane wanted Message-ID: <002f01c04cfa$66141120$2001a8c0@my.domain> One day I found someone throwing out an "Industrial Computer Source" SBC (look at http://www.icsadvent.com/ and search for "sb586t"). There was a passive backplane as well, but it was a 2 PCI 6 ISA slot backplane, which is kinda large. PICMG is the designation for the form factor. I searched, and found at least one company that sells a 2/1 slot backplane, but they're industrial, and wouldn't sell a single quantity. My hopes was to build a nice tiny box out of it. Given the form factor, it would be roughly the size of a shoebox. So, does anyone have a source for backplanes? I don't need any ISA slots, and would rather have just two PCI slots. I could take a dremmel to the existing backplane, but I would end up cutting off the headers for the power switch, etc, due to the way the backplane is constructed. From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Nov 12 16:43:18 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Homebrewing a digital computer In-Reply-To: "ajp166"'s message of "Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:31:02 -0500" References: <01b001c04c61$60fdfa50$0c799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <200011122243.eACMhIK35291@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "ajp166" wrote: > You can but nixies are a pita to drive. Of era lamping would be > bulb per bit. cheaper too. Hmm. I saw an interesting display device at a friend's the other day, in some sort of Genrad whatsit that he was getting ready to scrap. (He's keeping the display digits though.) Each digit is a box with a bunch of tiny incandescent bulbs mounted in the back; each bulb illuminates one layer of plastic at the front; these layers are stacked and each has a digit (or other symbol, e.g. decimal point) etched in it (as a bunch of etched dots). There's a diagram on the side of each digit-box that indicates which bulb illuminates which digit or symbol. Anybody got any ideas about this thing? His speculation is that somebody didn't want to pay for nixies (but he's amazed at what these things must have cost to build in comparison), mine is that they wanted something nicer than a column of digits 0-9 with a bulb behind each. -Frank McConnell From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 12 17:58:34 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Homebrewing a digital computer Message-ID: <027501c04d04$7ac59170$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: Frank McConnell > >(He's keeping the display digits though.) Each digit is a box with a >bunch of tiny incandescent bulbs mounted in the back; each bulb >illuminates one layer of plastic at the front; these layers are >stacked and each has a digit (or other symbol, e.g. decimal point) >etched in it (as a bunch of etched dots). There's a diagram on the >side of each digit-box that indicates which bulb illuminates which >digit or symbol. These were common in the 60s. Driving nixies has one problem you need a transistor that can handle at least 60-80V, early transistors werent cheap (those that could). Also you needed high voltage (170-220Vdc) for nixies, plus resistors for current limiting all adding up to to a lot of space power and heat. Transistors that could switch 100ma@6V were common and cheap so the same diplay idea was used. There were other reasons with respect to readability and diplay color as well. Another config that was used is a 7segment where each segment was a wedge of plastic forming the bar and a lamp (or later led) behind it. These preceded the LED based 7 segment at low cost. For those that don't know there were also filliment based 7segment displays (have a bunch) for the early growing display market. They were aimed at the problem of good leds at that time being expensive and not terribly bright. My first freq counter has four of these and still works 27 years later. >Anybody got any ideas about this thing? His speculation is that >somebody didn't want to pay for nixies (but he's amazed at what these >things must have cost to build in comparison), mine is that they >wanted something nicer than a column of digits 0-9 with a bulb behind >each. You are closer to right. Allison From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Sun Nov 12 18:04:22 2000 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: RML LINK 480Z with network connection References: Message-ID: <3A0F3006.BF3C183@tinyworld.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > > Paul Williams wrote: > > > > Oddly enough, the 480Z talks to the disk drive through the serial > > port. The disk drive also contains another serial port, which I've > > yet to experiment with. > > Ah, so that's how it was done. I presume it uses the SIO-4 connector > (which is a serial port using a Z80-SIO, as opposed to SIO-2, which > is bit-banged, and not particularly useful). I wonder what baud rate > and protocol it uses -- it would be interesting to attempt to use > another computer as a 'disk drive' for the 480Z (well, interesting > for those of us who have 480Zs and no drives). Yes, it's the SIO-4 connector. I haven't managed to get the disk drive open yet (oh, the shame of it!) because it looks like it's been rivetted together (or screws with the heads taken off). I'd like to investigate the disk drive protocol too. I see if I can hack together another cable with a flying D-type and borrow a protocol analyser from work. As I mentioned, there is a second serial port on the disk drive. It is labelled "Serial I/O-4, interface for printer etc.", so the protocol allows for pass-through to other devices. Rather nice. > Looking at the schematics, I don't see how it can fail to produce > a colour display on an RGB monitor. That's good news. I've got a Microvitec Cub 653 that I use for my QL, so I'll see if I can hook that up. I've just spent the last couple of hours trying to decode the hi-res graphics code. The graphics operations are very slow. I wrote a sprite routine for it at school and I remember that the video RAM is accessed through output ports which have got very strict timing constraints, so the code is forever waiting for the next chance to access the RAM. Looks like plenty to work on! Cheers, Paul From tlujan2 at earthlink.net Sun Nov 12 18:09:35 2000 From: tlujan2 at earthlink.net (tlujan2) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Update on finds Message-ID: <000601c04d06$021be920$cfa9d9cf@earthlink.net> >Alphacom 42 thermal printer very strange plug on this unit, >anyone know how you power this printer The AC-Adaptor Model: PI-1000 input: AC 120V 60HZ 33W output: AC26.8V 1A Plug-in Class 2 Transformer For Use With AL 42 Printer P/N: 101300 Code: 9-83 This is a USA printer and also uses a printer cartridge interface for a specific computer. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001112/375c27d8/attachment.html From donm at cts.com Sun Nov 12 18:36:17 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <017a01c04c4c$86684620$0c799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Nov 2000, ajp166 wrote: > From: Don Maslin > > > >Was the pinout different, Allison? I have both the LB-186 and > >LB/PC. The LB-186 is PLCC, while the LB/PC (V40) is SMT, but both look > >to have a like number of contacts. > > - don > > > Not all the same pin functions. Some internal differences, V40 has > async serial IO for example. Nicer part. Yes, I know about the serial IO. I've used it. But are the pin functions sufficiently different that you canmot use it as a direct replacement for the 80186? If so, it is a departure from what you could do with the V20 and V30. - don From optimus at canit.se Sun Nov 12 15:54:27 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME In-Reply-To: <01ad01c04c5e$53d727a0$0c799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <704.351T1350T13745247optimus@canit.se> ajp166 skrev: >From: Iggy Drougge >>>You serious? Get real. Chipset, bah! I'm talking about pre chipset >>>stuff of >>>CDC Cyber and Univax1180, PB250. >> >>Univax never made pong machines to the best of my knowledge. ;-) >No but spacewar on the 1180 was not to bad. I believe there is a serious age difference at hand here. >>I can't say that I've ever encountered such a system. And what would the >>applications be? >HP pocket clacs, Microwave ovens, quite a few games, small army >of control aps. I've got a vintage HP clac, but wouldn't that be using a custom circuit instead of a microprocessor? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. When all else fails, read the instructions. From optimus at canit.se Sun Nov 12 18:36:36 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Pal and NTSC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2504.352T1800T965729optimus@canit.se> Mark skrev: >On Wed, 8 Nov 2000 Lawrence Walker wrote: >> I have an old famicon game system that is PAL-compliant. >> Other than a PAL/NTSC converter or PAL TV is there any way of >> hooking this up. ? >Yes. I'm joining late... >> I do have a kaleidoscopic collection of monitors as well as >> several VCR tape decks and a JDH Videomate external VGA/TV >> adapter which allows me to use my NEC multisync as an all- >> purpose viewer. It has an H-Phase pot whose response on the >> monitor is a shift to the side of the display and otherwise not >> causing any picture distortion. I recall on my Atari there were >> programs that shifted from 60mhz to 50mhz and allowed you to >> play PAL formatted games, but in this case there is no computer >> intervention with the JDH. It is a straight-thru switch. >The main issue here is the colour encoding. If you could get a usable display >from your Atari in 50Hz mode, you will get a usable display from the Famicom. If the NEC Multisync is a model II or 3D, it will accept 50Hz frequencies. >If your VGA/TV converter only understands NTSC colour encoding, the picture >will be in black-and-white. (Assuming that it works with a 50Hz/625 line >picture.) The best alternative would probably be a Commodore monitor such as the 1084 or the Philips 8833. Oh wait, my 8833 wouldn't even accept a PAL-60 colour signal. >You can get analogue NTSC-to-PAL colour standard converters, which only >change the colour encoding, not the number of lines per field, for about >US$80 if I remember rightly; I believe MCM Electronics sell something like >that. Short of making/buying a PAL-to-RGB decoder, that is what you want and >would give better results more expensive standards converters. Yep, and a 1084 would certainly be able to handle that. >Depending on exactly which console you have, it may be possible to modify it >to give true NTSC output; some Famicom clone consoles have this capability, >but a real one does not. >Oh, if your Famicom only has RF output, you'll need a TV tuner that is >compatible with its signal. A PAL NES has got an RCA CVBS output on one side. I would personally like to give Nintendo a big kick in the arse for not including RGB output into the NES design. SEGA did with the Master System. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Georgie beundrade stor?gt sin pappa som med v?ldsamma slag gick l?s p? det stora tr?det. Han badade i svett, och den muskul?sa kroppen bl?nkte i solskenet. Hon ?lskade honom. Lady Georgie, TMS 1983 From aclark at envirolink.org Sun Nov 12 19:13:59 2000 From: aclark at envirolink.org (Arthur Clark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Need to sell out? Message-ID: <5.0.1.4.0.20001112201251.033e93f0@manatee.envirolink.org> As the years roll by, more and more Apple /// and ][ users/collectors are selling their holdings due to a lack of time and space. If you are in this situation, I want to help. I am a young Apple collector who will provide a good home for your treasures. I readily buy Apple hardware in good condition. Don't let uncertainty on the value of your hardware hold you back! I buy often enough to know what it is worth. Ask for what you want for it. I may suggest that you charge me more. (If you have working equipment that is in excellent cosmetic condition, you _will_ get top dollar for it.) If you live in or near Pennsylvania, I may be able to pick up at your home to save you the bother of shipping. I will consider long-haul pick up trips for exceptional hardware. Help me build my collection, I'll help you clean out some needed storage space. Regards, Arthur Clark From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 12 19:44:49 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? Message-ID: <02a001c04d13$adb21360$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: Don Maslin >> Not all the same pin functions. Some internal differences, V40 has >> async serial IO for example. Nicer part. > >Yes, I know about the serial IO. I've used it. But are the pin >functions sufficiently different that you canmot use it as a direct >replacement for the 80186? If so, it is a departure from what you could >do with the V20 and V30. Indeed it wasdeparture. the V20/30 was an attempt to wrest the 8086 market from intel... a few years in court NEC won as it was indeed much different inside. What's bizzare is NEC also was licensed for and made the 8088/6 fully compatable part too. Anywho the differnces are enough that dropin is not done. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 12 19:46:58 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME Message-ID: <02a101c04d13$b0200620$0c799a8d@ajp166> From: Iggy Drougge >>No but spacewar on the 1180 was not to bad. > >I believe there is a serious age difference at hand here. ;) yes! >>HP pocket clacs, Microwave ovens, quite a few games, small army >>of control aps. > >I've got a vintage HP clac, but wouldn't that be using a custom circuit >instead of a microprocessor? yes and yes. It was a custom circuit but the circuit was a 4bit microprocessor that HP did for their own use. Bell labs also had a really interesting 4bitter they used in ESS (early). Allison From louiss at gate.net Sun Nov 12 19:43:28 2000 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Electrohome RGB monitor In-Reply-To: <200011120325.WAA287166@shasta.gate.net> Message-ID: <200011130142.UAA260680@cocopah.gate.net> Since I got no response, I went ahead and did a test. You may be (or maybe not) interested to note that the monitor in question is configured for Apple /// XRGB, which means it hooks up directly to an Apple /// and delivers beautiful accurate colors. The cable is a 15-wire straight through, male to female. The monitor also has a DIN-8 connector. Any guesses what computer would have used this type RGB in 1982? Anyone care about old personal computers, or just DECs? Louis On Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:25:52 -0500 (EST), Louis Schulman wrote: >Well, for $2 I picked up an Electrohome RGB monitor, Model >38-G12003-60, made by JVC in Japan in 1982. > >By the looks of the case colors and the connector, my guess >is that this is an Apple II/III monitor. My real hope is >this is one of the few monitors that can hook up directly >with an Apple III, and produce the right RGB colors without >any adapter. > >Does anyone know? Does the pinout of the RGB connector >match that of an Apple III? Any help would be greatly >appreciated. > >Louis > > From rickb at bensene.com Sun Nov 12 20:52:20 2000 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Weird Displays (was Homebrewing...) In-Reply-To: <200011122243.eACMhIK35291@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: > Hmm. I saw an interesting display device at a friend's the other day, > in some sort of Genrad whatsit that he was getting ready to scrap. > (He's keeping the display digits though.) Each digit is a box with a > bunch of tiny incandescent bulbs mounted in the back; each bulb > illuminates one layer of plastic at the front; these layers are > stacked and each has a digit (or other symbol, e.g. decimal point) > etched in it (as a bunch of etched dots). There's a diagram on the > side of each digit-box that indicates which bulb illuminates which > digit or symbol. Check out the following electronic calculator in my museum of old calculators: http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators/canon161.html It uses this exact type of display. Pretty amazing stuff. Regards, Rick Bensene The Old Calculators Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 12 21:43:56 2000 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Electrohome RGB monitor References: <200011130142.UAA260680@cocopah.gate.net> Message-ID: <004301c04d23$f60aa220$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Schulman" To: Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 8:43 PM Subject: Re: Electrohome RGB monitor > Since I got no response, I went ahead and did a test. You > may be (or maybe not) interested to note that the monitor > in question is configured for Apple /// XRGB, which means > it hooks up directly to an Apple /// and delivers beautiful > accurate colors. The cable is a 15-wire straight through, > male to female. > > The monitor also has a DIN-8 connector. Any guesses what > computer would have used this type RGB in 1982? Anyone > care about old personal computers, or just DECs? I just added more shelf space to display my latest acquisitions. In the pile was a 21" SuperMac monitor. It came with 4 machines (LC II, LC III, II Si, quadra 650) so I'm not sure which one it belongs with. I'm wondering if it can be used on my VaxStation II/GPX or a sparc station. The last monitor I picked up sparks when it is plugged in so I'm leery about testing monitors at the moment. I also got a Unisys monitor that seems to have a speaker in the base and a rj45 male end sticking out of it. It has a 2 connectors on the back one with3 rows of holes and a wider plug with 2 rows. I have found a few boxes of 5.25 disks so I can get the setup for the AT&T 7300. From donm at cts.com Sun Nov 12 23:11:25 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Homebrewing a digital computer In-Reply-To: <200011122243.eACMhIK35291@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 12 Nov 2000, Frank McConnell wrote: > "ajp166" wrote: > > You can but nixies are a pita to drive. Of era lamping would be > > bulb per bit. cheaper too. > > Hmm. I saw an interesting display device at a friend's the other day, > in some sort of Genrad whatsit that he was getting ready to scrap. > (He's keeping the display digits though.) Each digit is a box with a > bunch of tiny incandescent bulbs mounted in the back; each bulb > illuminates one layer of plastic at the front; these layers are > stacked and each has a digit (or other symbol, e.g. decimal point) > etched in it (as a bunch of etched dots). There's a diagram on the > side of each digit-box that indicates which bulb illuminates which > digit or symbol. > > Anybody got any ideas about this thing? His speculation is that > somebody didn't want to pay for nixies (but he's amazed at what these > things must have cost to build in comparison), mine is that they > wanted something nicer than a column of digits 0-9 with a bulb behind > each. They were quite popular with the early manufacturers of Digital Voltmeters and other such equipment. Makers such as NonLinear Systems (think Kaypro) and Electro Instruments and others whose names do not immediately come to mind. They permitted display of larger characters than nixies, had no high voltage requirement, and with a filter you could make the display any color you wanted. - don > -Frank McConnell > > From donm at cts.com Sun Nov 12 23:31:21 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Nov 2000, Don Maslin wrote: > > > On Sat, 11 Nov 2000, ajp166 wrote: > > > From: Don Maslin > > > > > > >Was the pinout different, Allison? I have both the LB-186 and > > >LB/PC. The LB-186 is PLCC, while the LB/PC (V40) is SMT, but both look > > >to have a like number of contacts. > > > - don > > > > > > Not all the same pin functions. Some internal differences, V40 has > > async serial IO for example. Nicer part. > > Yes, I know about the serial IO. I've used it. But are the pin > functions sufficiently different that you canmot use it as a direct > replacement for the 80186? If so, it is a departure from what you could > do with the V20 and V30. I realize now that it would not in that it is the 80188 vice 80186 version. - don > > - don > > > From fuzznut at resspc134-189.canberra.edu.au Sun Nov 12 22:52:09 2000 From: fuzznut at resspc134-189.canberra.edu.au (fuzznut@resspc134-189.canberra.edu.au) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Lisa 2/10 Dates In-Reply-To: <00dd01c04ccc$13cb3de0$1212f4d8@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Nov 2000, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > > Also, was there any 3rd party software for the Lisa > available, and is > > there still any out there? > > > I have a software package for the Lisa 2 called "Art > Department -- A library of Graphic Images for LisaDraw" > sold by "Business and Professional Software, Inc." > copyright 1983. Basically, it is two 3 1/2 inch disks > containing 300 or so images. The original price > sticker is still on mine -- $195.00. I actually just read a review of that in semaphoresignal magazine, Issue #10. Check out http://semaphorecorp.com/ss/toc.html I've found this a pretty good resource for Lisa stuff. Karl From wmsmith at earthlink.net Mon Nov 13 00:16:16 2000 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: H-89.... References: Message-ID: <008401c04d39$3ba33440$a813f4d8@Smith.earthlink.net> Hi Gene: I saw your postings on Classiccmp a while back and wanted to let you know what I have. Assembly Manual for the H-89A (595-2596-04) Illustration Booklet (595-2596-01) Operation Manual for the H-89A (595-2766-04) Illustration Booklet (595-2766-04) Schematic of the Heathkit Digital Computer H-89A (595-2766-04) Instructions for the Heath 96 TPI 5-1/4" FDD Model H-17-5 (597-3179-02) Instructions for the Zenith Double-Density Disk Controller Model Z-89-37 (595-2707-04) Parts Pictorial (595-2707-04) Schematic of the Zenith Floppy Disk Controller Model Z-89-37 (595-2674-04) Monitor MTR-90 Operation Manual (595-2696) Heathkit Manual for the 48 TPI 5 1/4" Floppy Disk Drive Model H-17-1 (595-2716) Operation Manual for D-G Electronic Developments Co. D-G SUPER 89 Enhanced Processor Board Let me know if you need copies of any of this and I'll see what I can do. I also have various software manuals that go with the H-89, including those for CPM/2.2 and CPM-80. Wayne Smith From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 12 23:20:57 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Looking for a couple of HP 7475A plotter parts In-Reply-To: <3A0EE546.2392AA54@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Nov 2000, Stan Perkins wrote: > I'm trying to resurrect an old HP 7475A, and I need a couple of parts: Hi Stan. I come across these often at thrift stores. They seem to be rather common. Have you tried looking around in your area thrift stores for one? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Nov 13 01:22:51 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Weird Displays (was Homebrewing...) In-Reply-To: "Rick Bensene"'s message of "Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:52:20 -0800" References: Message-ID: <200011130722.eAD7Mpi49728@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Rick Bensene" wrote: > > in some sort of Genrad whatsit that he was getting ready to scrap. > > (He's keeping the display digits though.) Each digit is a box with a > > bunch of tiny incandescent bulbs mounted in the back; each bulb > Check out the following electronic calculator in my > museum of old calculators: > http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators/canon161.html > > It uses this exact type of display. Pretty amazing stuff. Thanks. Yes, that is the same sort of thing. One difference (perhaps an improvement) in the Genrad digit-display modules is that the grain-of-wheat bulbs are just slid into tubes in the back of the module -- their contacts poke out the back of the module and mate up with spring-loaded contacts in the display chassis. Also, the modules slide out from the front of the unit, so replacing the bulbs is fairly straightforward and can be done without soldering. -Frank McConnell From agraham at ccat.co.uk Mon Nov 13 04:49:38 2000 From: agraham at ccat.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: 80186 Message-ID: <00Nov13.104939gmt.46095@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:44:24 +0000 From: Paul Williams Subject: Re: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? >>Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Of course there's an 80186, and for that matter an 80188, which is >> the same chip with an 8 bit external databus. Both were more widely >> used in things like X-terminals, laserprinters, etc rather than PCs >> (I seem to remember there was something about the IBM PC architecture >> that made it difficult to use an 80186, but I will have to check the >> details) > >Research Machines produced a 80186-based PC called the Nimbus. If there >were compatibility issues they may not have been visible in the >locked-in education market. The Nimbus was RM's later 486 and Pentium machine ISTR; the 80186 machine was the PC1, a photo of which will appear on the museum site in the next few days. adrian www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Online Computer Museum From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Nov 13 05:44:55 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Computer LCD projection panels Message-ID: <20001113054455.N15154@mrbill.net> I picked up a Sharp QA-25 computer LCD projection panel from a local junk shop today. The glass/"optics" look just fine (no scratches, just needs to be Windexed), but I have no manual or power supply or data cables for this. I remember using one about 10 years ago when in school, but I dont remember if this uses EGA or CGA inputs (has a 9-pin D-shell data input). I'm guessing probably CGA; anybody know specifics on the data cable? Think I can hook it via straight-9pin-cable to the CGA out port on the back of a laptop and fire it up? (fortunately I can use a standard generic wall-wart power supply; it has the specs and connector diagram on the side of the unit). Now, off to the office surplus store to get an overhead projector for $10.... Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Nov 12 22:34:13 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Magnum-25 tester formatter In-Reply-To: References: <3A0CC310.C84191C4@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001112233413.32676940@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 03:44 PM 11/11/00 -0800, Don wrote: > > >On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Marvin wrote: > >> >> I acquired a Bell Atlantic Computer Technology Services Magnum-25 disk drive >> tester/formatter that was manufactured by Doradus Corporation (what a >> mouthful!) So far, I haven't been able to find out any information about it. > >> Anyone have any information and/or manuals? I also acquired several Dysan >> drive testers and am in the process of trying to find out more about them. > >Is that the PAT-2+? I have a manual for it if I can answer any >questions for you. My recollection is that its use is fairly intuitive, >though. > - don > > It doesn't sound like it. I have a NIB PAT-2+ and a buddy of mine has another and there's nothing on the box or in the manuals even close to the description that Marvin gave. Marvin, I can post a picture of the PAT-2 if you want to see if your units look anything like it. Joe From jate at uwasa.fi Mon Nov 13 06:13:35 2000 From: jate at uwasa.fi (Jarkko Hermanni Teppo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Computer LCD projection panels In-Reply-To: <20001113054455.N15154@mrbill.net>; from mrbill@mrbill.net on Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 05:44:55AM -0600 References: <20001113054455.N15154@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20001113141335.F4852@loisto.uwasa.fi> On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 05:44:55AM -0600, Bill Bradford wrote: > I picked up a Sharp QA-25 computer LCD projection panel from a local > junk shop today. The glass/"optics" look just fine (no scratches, just > needs to be Windexed), but I have no manual or power supply or data > cables for this. I remember using one about 10 years ago when in > school, but I dont remember if this uses EGA or CGA inputs (has a 9-pin > D-shell data input). > > I'm guessing probably CGA; anybody know specifics on the data cable? > Think I can hook it via straight-9pin-cable to the CGA out port on the > back of a laptop and fire it up? (fortunately I can use a standard > generic wall-wart power supply; it has the specs and connector diagram > on the side of the unit). I have a Sharp {Idontremember} panel, black&white , 16 rasterized "shades" of grey. The case is dark grey/black and there's a wide fan on the other end and a flip-up cover exposing contrast and other controls. It can do VGA and (EGA/CGA or Hercules) with the appropriate cables. It might have been a QA-25 but I'm not sure. Came with a remote controller too (IR) The controls were really small dials and a couple of push buttons. I have the manual but I don't remember if it had the cable diagrams. I bought it an auction three years ago, I was bidding for 2 Tek 4207's and a 4107 and after paying the $10 I found the panel underneath the pile. > > Now, off to the office surplus store to get an overhead projector for > $10.... .. and at the same auction I got three overhead projectors for $2. Sometimes you get lucky (although I still don't know what to do with them). I like playing this PC racing game "Stunts" projected to a wall. So that's my recipe for 12 buck multimedia "experience". -- Jarkko Teppo | Lahjoita HP 7933:n levypakka hyv??n kotiin! jate@uwasa.fi | :wq! | From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Mon Nov 13 06:31:34 2000 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: old 7-segment displays Message-ID: <01C04D6D.A998A0A0@exch001.softwright.co.uk> Hi all, (not sure if I have posting access here - guess I'll find out soon enough!) The recent messages about displays have made me recall a bunch of little devices I have stashed in a box someplace... They're mounted on a board in such a way that they look like they're the display panel for an ancient fuel pump, but I could be wrong. There's two sizes, one about an inch high and the other about 3/4", and some of them are double-digit within the same housing. These things are glass, with a black background and silver segments - there's a lot of discolourment on some of them around the segments on the rear of the glass facing. Pins come out of the rear of the devices. Any ideas what these could be? Some sort of mercury vapour or something? It'd be nice to hook them up - I bought them from a car boot sale a few years ago and never got around to doing anything with them. I can probably work out which pins drive what, but have no idea what sort of voltage these things will need (I'll try to remember and get whatever text info there is on the PCB itself - think it was just a bunch of part numbers, but there might be something meaningful to someone if the board didn't just come from something as mundane as a fuel pump) cheers Jules From optimus at canit.se Mon Nov 13 06:35:56 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME In-Reply-To: <02a101c04d13$b0200620$0c799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Nov 2000, ajp166 wrote: > From: Iggy Drougge > > >>No but spacewar on the 1180 was not to bad. > > > >I believe there is a serious age difference at hand here. > > ;) yes! Mind you, I've met people who have programmed the BESK (1957 vintage =)... > >>HP pocket clacs, Microwave ovens, quite a few games, small army > >>of control aps. > > > >I've got a vintage HP clac, but wouldn't that be using a custom circuit > >instead of a microprocessor? > > yes and yes. It was a custom circuit but the circuit was a 4bit > microprocessor that HP did for their own use. Bell labs also had > a really interesting 4bitter they used in ESS (early). Well, I can't really see myself forming any kind of lasting relationship to a red-led HP clac any time soon. I have a fetish for graphics, keyoabrds or terminals. ;-) From optimus at canit.se Mon Nov 13 06:43:16 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:46 2005 Subject: Atari PC motherboards Message-ID: I was recently given a suitcase full of Atari PC motherboards. These are your common cheap NEC CPU mid-eighties half-eight-bit PC, but they have a Fuji symbol on the motherboard and an atari St-style external floppy connector. That's about all that makes it interesting, but if you're an atari collector or have a broken one, I'm very willing to give them away, either in person or if you pay the postage. Oh, I've given away the AMD '286 model, which IIRC was the PC4, but have a number of PC3 MBs left. From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Nov 13 07:20:08 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Atari PC motherboards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001113082008.00738130@earthlink.net> At 01:43 PM 11/13/00 +0100, you wrote: >I was recently given a suitcase full of Atari PC motherboards. These are >your common cheap NEC CPU mid-eighties half-eight-bit PC, but they have a >Fuji symbol on the motherboard and an atari St-style external floppy >connector. That's about all that makes it interesting, but if you're an >atari collector or have a broken one, I'm very willing to give them away, >either in person or if you pay the postage. >Oh, I've given away the AMD '286 model, which IIRC was the PC4, but have a >number of PC3 MBs left. If I recall correctly, the Atari PC-compatibles are fairly uncommon and most people aren't even aware that they were made. I'd be interested in one or two of them just to settle my curiosity about them. Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Nov 13 07:20:38 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <011601c04c1b$76968da0$0c799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001113082038.0074f4b8@earthlink.net> At 03:07 PM 11/11/00 -0500, you wrote: >It was realeased. I have the NEC data book for V20 through V70. Thanks to everyone who corrected me on the V40. I wasn't sure, as I had vaguely recalled seeing something many years ago about NEC's 80286-compatible chip and how they weren't releasing it due to legal concerns. I was mistaken in remembering it as the V40. Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Nov 13 07:40:23 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Need to sell out? Message-ID: <30.c81caa8.27414947@aol.com> Apple collectors/users are selling out? harrrumph, can you quantify this? Every computer collector runs out of time and space, I know I do! Since you offer to buy apple stuff, let's see a price list of what you want to buy. I've a room full of apple goodies and enough duplicates to sell. How much money you have? In a message dated 11/12/00 8:19:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, aclark@envirolink.org writes: > As the years roll by, more and more Apple /// and ][ users/collectors are > selling their holdings due to a lack of time and space. If you are in this > situation, I want to help. I am a young Apple collector who will provide a > good home for your treasures. I readily buy Apple hardware in good > condition. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 hurry, hurry, step right up! see the computers you used as a kid! http://www.nothingtodo.org From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Mon Nov 13 08:20:31 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Computer LCD projection panels In-Reply-To: <20001113054455.N15154@mrbill.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Nov 2000 05:44:55 -0600 Bill Bradford wrote: > I picked up a Sharp QA-25 computer LCD projection panel from a local > junk shop today. It had to happen sooner or later... a device that I worked on would appear on ClassicCmp... I was working for London Software Studio in about 1986 or 1987 when we were asked to adapt our presentation graphics software for this very LCD panel. My colleague, Beccy Holmes, did most of the work of modifying a compiled BASIC program from EGA colour mode to CGA mono mode. I helped with a CGA 640x200 graphics library, mostly in 8086 assembler. Sharp UK bundled the code with all the LCD panels that they sold. > The glass/"optics" look just fine (no scratches, just > needs to be Windexed), but I have no manual or power supply or data > cables for this. I remember using one about 10 years ago when in > school, but I dont remember if this uses EGA or CGA inputs (has a 9-pin > D-shell data input). It's CGA. The CGA video connector was a 9-pin, and it just needs a straight-through cable to connect it to a CGA card. > I'm guessing probably CGA; anybody know specifics on the data cable? > Think I can hook it via straight-9pin-cable to the CGA out port on the > back of a laptop and fire it up? Yes, should be OK. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Mon Nov 13 08:24:38 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Computer LCD projection panels In-Reply-To: <20001113141335.F4852@loisto.uwasa.fi> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:13:35 +0200 Jarkko Hermanni Teppo wrote: > I have a Sharp {Idontremember} panel, black&white , 16 rasterized "shades" > of grey. The case is dark grey/black and there's a wide fan on the other end > and a flip-up cover exposing contrast and other controls. It can do > VGA and (EGA/CGA or Hercules) with the appropriate cables. It might have > been a QA-25 but I'm not sure. The QA-25 was quite pale in colour, but was superceded (very rapidly) by a VGA model in black plastic. This seems to be the one that you've got. Sharp UK were most unhappy to find themselves with stocks of the earlier model at a time when the PS/2 had just come out, the VGA was the "in thing" and their old LCD panels wouldn't work with it. > The controls were really small dials and a couple of push buttons. The small dials were for adjusting the gain of the three colour channels of the (analog) VGA input. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From swperk at earthlink.net Mon Nov 13 09:22:33 2000 From: swperk at earthlink.net (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Looking for a couple of HP 7475A plotter parts References: Message-ID: <3A100739.19A54C1B@earthlink.net> Sellam, Yes, I'm planning to cruise a couple of swap meets in the next few weeks. I know these plotters are around, but I'm averse to purchasing a working instrument just to cannibalize it for parts for a broken one, unless there's no alternative. I was hoping someone on the list might have a damaged, defective, or "parts" 7475 that had these two pieces still intact. Regards, Stan Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Sun, 12 Nov 2000, Stan Perkins wrote: > > > I'm trying to resurrect an old HP 7475A, and I need a couple of parts: > > Hi Stan. > > I come across these often at thrift stores. They seem to be rather > common. Have you tried looking around in your area thrift stores for one? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 13 09:18:26 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: H-89.... In-Reply-To: <008401c04d39$3ba33440$a813f4d8@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Thanks Wayne. I'm still awaiting the arrival of my machine. :) I'm having odd problems with my scanner right now - Adobe won't grab more than one sheet. I have to solve this before I can start doing any heavy duty scanning. I'll let you know what I need once I get my machine - it has some docs with it, but I don't know what as yet. g. On Sun, 12 Nov 2000, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > Hi Gene: > > I saw your postings on Classiccmp a while back and > wanted to let you know what I have. > > Assembly Manual for the H-89A (595-2596-04) > Illustration Booklet (595-2596-01) > Operation Manual for the H-89A (595-2766-04) > Illustration Booklet (595-2766-04) > Schematic of the Heathkit Digital Computer H-89A > (595-2766-04) > Instructions for the Heath 96 TPI 5-1/4" FDD Model > H-17-5 (597-3179-02) > Instructions for the Zenith Double-Density Disk > Controller Model Z-89-37 (595-2707-04) > Parts Pictorial (595-2707-04) > Schematic of the Zenith Floppy Disk Controller Model > Z-89-37 (595-2674-04) > Monitor MTR-90 Operation Manual (595-2696) > Heathkit Manual for the 48 TPI 5 1/4" Floppy Disk Drive > Model H-17-1 (595-2716) > Operation Manual for D-G Electronic Developments Co. > D-G SUPER 89 Enhanced Processor Board > > Let me know if you need copies of any of this and I'll > see what I can do. I also have various software > manuals that go with the H-89, including those for > CPM/2.2 and CPM-80. > > Wayne Smith > > > > > From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Mon Nov 13 09:58:35 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Looking for a couple of HP 7475A plotter parts In-Reply-To: <3A100739.19A54C1B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Nov 2000 07:22:33 -0800 Stan Perkins wrote: > I'm trying to resurrect an old HP 7475A, and I need a > couple of parts: I'm also an HP plotter enthusiast, and I have an HP 7550. It has a 68000 CPU doing all the work. I have two volumes of manuals, plus a handy quick-reference. The bits I'm missing are the pen carousels and the digitising sight. Anybody have any spares for the 7550? In the UK? I've already been lucky enough to find three packets of pens in a Bristol charity shop (thrift store). -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From THETechnoid at home.com Mon Nov 13 10:16:31 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Update on finds In-Reply-To: <000601c04d06$021be920$cfa9d9cf@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20001113161438.FZRP14040.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> That was back in the day! A half-page thermal printer was LOADS cheaper than a daisywheel or an impact DM printer. If I recall, the personality card contains the machine-specific interface (commodore, Atari, etcetera) as well as rom which allowed printing the host machine's full graphics character set (all 220+ chars). Useful for program hardcopy which contains machine code. You mentioned it has a funny jack. Maybe for Atari 8-bits? They have this wierd 13pin D shaped molex connector.... The Okidata 'okimate 10' and okimate 20 had a similar scheme to support the babylon of architectures out there at the time. I miss Babylon. It was so much more fun than today's PCs. Regards, Jeff In <000601c04d06$021be920$cfa9d9cf@earthlink.net>, on 11/13/00 at 11:16 AM, "tlujan2" said: >>Alphacom 42 thermal printer very strange plug on this unit, >>anyone know how you power this printer >This is a USA printer and also uses a printer cartridge interface for a >specific computer. >-- -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Nov 13 10:22:07 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Computer LCD projection panels In-Reply-To: ; from John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk on Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 02:20:31PM +0000 References: <20001113054455.N15154@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20001113102207.M19580@mrbill.net> On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 02:20:31PM +0000, John Honniball wrote: > I was working for London Software Studio in about 1986 or > 1987 when we were asked to adapt our presentation graphics > software for this very LCD panel. My colleague, Beccy > Holmes, did most of the work of modifying a compiled BASIC > program from EGA colour mode to CGA mono mode. I helped > with a CGA 640x200 graphics library, mostly in 8086 > assembler. Sharp UK bundled the code with all the LCD > panels that they sold. I got an email this morning *already* from Sharp customer service; they're mailing me a copy of the manual for the unit at no charge. Talk about fast - I only emailed them around 5am this morning. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Mon Nov 13 11:53:10 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Looking for a couple of HP 7475A plotter parts Message-ID: Plotters and parts The local computer surplus exchange in Kansas City has several HP 7475A's. They would probably go for $10-15 plus shipping, make them an offer. There are carousels for them. Contact them at sesales@crn.org. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 13 11:54:11 2000 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Data General/MASK was Re: DG Nova 4 References: <20001108091814.A15552@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <00a901c04d9a$bbb7c860$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ClassicCmp" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 3:18 AM Subject: DG Nova 4 > Hello people, > > I'm currently seeking information on Data General's Nova line of > minicomputers. In one of my last hauls I ended up with 3 machines from Mask Computers after they were purchased by REBEL.COM. Would any open here know anything about these machines? With the company no longer in business would they be worth holding onto? Data General Ser No. DG-YC399M1215001 MASK systems Ser no. MASK97-00275 MASK systems Ser. no. EVAL-0069 From swperk at earthlink.net Mon Nov 13 12:09:05 2000 From: swperk at earthlink.net (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Looking for a couple of HP 7475A plotter parts References: Message-ID: <3A102E41.188CDDF4@earthlink.net> Mike, Thanks for the info. I've got a couple of leads locally, but if they don't work out I'll certainly contact the KC outfit. Regards, Stan "McFadden, Mike" wrote: > > Plotters and parts > The local computer surplus exchange in Kansas City has several HP 7475A's. > They would probably go for $10-15 plus shipping, make them an offer. There > are carousels for them. Contact them at sesales@crn.org. > Mike > mmcfadden@cmh.edu From elvey at hal.com Mon Nov 13 12:10:05 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200011131810.KAA24482@civic.hal.com> Don Maslin wrote: > > > On Sat, 11 Nov 2000, ajp166 wrote: > > > From: Don Maslin > > > > > > >Was the pinout different, Allison? I have both the LB-186 and > > >LB/PC. The LB-186 is PLCC, while the LB/PC (V40) is SMT, but both look > > >to have a like number of contacts. > > > - don > > > > > > Not all the same pin functions. Some internal differences, V40 has > > async serial IO for example. Nicer part. > > Yes, I know about the serial IO. I've used it. But are the pin > functions sufficiently different that you canmot use it as a direct > replacement for the 80186? If so, it is a departure from what you could > do with the V20 and V30. Hi Which 80186? These came in a lot of flavors. Every letter following meant a change in pinouts or some feature inside. All of the 80186's had some amount of select line decoding. This along made them completely incompatible, pin wise, with any of the more standard '86 family parts. Dwight From THETechnoid at home.com Mon Nov 13 12:19:58 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: System/36 Protect Board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001113181236.WFLV2160.femail8.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Hi all. I'm a little embarassed that I had a conversation with a fellow on the list and don't recall his name. He offered a replacement board but I thought I could find it locally and save him the trouble. It turns out the machine at CPB I was planning to strip is not the same at all. If you are out there, drop me a note. Thanks, Jeff Dazed and Confused. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 13 12:18:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: RML LINK 480Z with network connection In-Reply-To: <3A0F3006.BF3C183@tinyworld.co.uk> from "Paul Williams" at Nov 13, 0 00:04:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1448 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001113/64ccb8df/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 13 12:32:03 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Electrohome RGB monitor In-Reply-To: <200011130142.UAA260680@cocopah.gate.net> from "Louis Schulman" at Nov 12, 0 08:43:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1344 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001113/73ae826a/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Nov 13 12:37:40 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <200011131810.KAA24482@civic.hal.com> References: Message-ID: <3A104304.6836.B992716@localhost> > Don Maslin wrote: > > On Sat, 11 Nov 2000, ajp166 wrote: > > > From: Don Maslin > > > >Was the pinout different, Allison? I have both the LB-186 and > > > >LB/PC. The LB-186 is PLCC, while the LB/PC (V40) is SMT, but both look > > > >to have a like number of contacts. > > > Not all the same pin functions. Some internal differences, V40 has > > > async serial IO for example. Nicer part. > > Yes, I know about the serial IO. I've used it. But are the pin > > functions sufficiently different that you canmot use it as a direct > > replacement for the 80186? If so, it is a departure from what you could > > do with the V20 and V30. > Which 80186? These came in a lot of flavors. Every letter > following meant a change in pinouts or some feature inside. > All of the 80186's had some amount of select line decoding. > This along made them completely incompatible, pin wise, with > any of the more standard '86 family parts. Also, V20 and V30 are replacements for 8088/86, not 80188/186 ! Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 13 13:19:27 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Weird Displays (was Homebrewing...) In-Reply-To: <200011130722.eAD7Mpi49728@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 12 Nov 2000, Frank McConnell wrote: > "Rick Bensene" wrote: > > > in some sort of Genrad whatsit that he was getting ready to scrap. > > > (He's keeping the display digits though.) Each digit is a box with a > > > bunch of tiny incandescent bulbs mounted in the back; each bulb > > > Check out the following electronic calculator in my > > museum of old calculators: > > http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators/canon161.html > > > > It uses this exact type of display. Pretty amazing stuff. > > Thanks. Yes, that is the same sort of thing. One difference (perhaps > an improvement) in the Genrad digit-display modules is that the > grain-of-wheat bulbs are just slid into tubes in the back of the > module -- their contacts poke out the back of the module and mate up > with spring-loaded contacts in the display chassis. Also, the modules > slide out from the front of the unit, so replacing the bulbs is fairly > straightforward and can be done without soldering. > > -Frank McConnell > Your description of the bulb mounting sounds more like the projection type display wherein each bulb projected the image of a digit or character onto a frosted plastic screeen at the viewed end. Each bulb had a small lens associated with it to focus the image on the screen. IIRC, they were typically about 1.5 x 2.0 x 4.0" and were constructed from an aluminum extruded(?) box. - don From jwest at mppw.com Mon Nov 13 13:33:36 2000 From: jwest at mppw.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: picture of IBM system/45 sought Message-ID: I have someone trying to give me an IBM system/45, supposedly in pristine working condition with boot tapes, etc. I don't know anything about theses, not being a big IBM fan. To help determine if I want this, can someone answer the following? A) What OS did it run B) Programmers front panel? Ok, I'll admit it, I like blinkenlitzen C) Rough size? D) Power requirements? E) Most helpfull, would be a picture? Thanks in advance! Please reply to jlwest@tseinc.com AND west@tseinc.com Cheers! Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 13 12:47:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME In-Reply-To: from "Iggy Drougge" at Nov 13, 0 01:35:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1182 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001113/1773216c/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Mon Nov 13 14:01:34 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Magnum-25 tester formatter References: <3A0CC310.C84191C4@rain.org> <3.0.1.16.20001112233413.32676940@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3A10489E.E8E9D915@rain.org> Joe wrote: > It doesn't sound like it. I have a NIB PAT-2+ and a buddy of mine has > another and there's nothing on the box or in the manuals even close to the > description that Marvin gave. > > Marvin, I can post a picture of the PAT-2 if you want to see if your > units look anything like it. Thanks Joe but it won't be necessary. The PAT-2 is a Dyson unit and I think that is the unit Don was talking about, not the Magnum-25. It looks like I have about 4 - 6 of the Dysan units and hopefully at some point I will have time to check them out. There were a number of other disk testers in the lot that all came from a person who repairs floppy and hard disks. I would like to get schematics on these units though! There was a lot of other stuff included in this lot; a SWTPC 6800 computer manual, probably eight Mac Plus, Classic, SE computers, documentation on a number of older floppy disks, a MAC SE still in the box, and a lot of other similar stuff. What I am mostly interested is the documentation. I might add that this was all free and what I didn't take ended up at either the recycle yard or the dump. It pays to build a network of friends who can let us know when something like this is taking place!!!!! From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 13 15:32:32 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20001113213232.15367.qmail@brouhaha.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Anyway, the early HP handhelds tended to have custom processors which you > may not class as microprocessors (they were multi-chip devices). The HP67 > (AFAIK) had a true microprocessor in it, They started with the HP-35. All the first-generation HP handheld calculators (and the HP-46, HP-81 desktops, the HP 3380A integrator, the HP 1722A oscilliscope, and likely others) use the same chipset. the processor consists of two chips, the A&R (Arithmetic and Registers) and the C&T (Control and Timing). The calculators contained other chips, including a clock driver, ROMs, display drivers, and in higher-end models, RAM. Some of the first-generation calculators such as the HP-65 and HP-80 used multichip modules. In the second-generation calculators, starting with the HP-21 and including the HP-67, the processor was a single chip called ARC (Arithmetic, Registers, and Control). All subsequent HP calculators have used single chip microprocessors. Until 1984 they were all derived from the HP-35 architecture with various enhancements. All HP calculators introduced between 1984 and 1998, and the HP 39G, HP 40G, and HP 49G use variations of the Saturn processor. From dogas at bellsouth.net Mon Nov 13 16:25:23 2000 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: dogas relocates References: Message-ID: <001401c04dc0$9fc79290$5d794ed8@DOMAIN> Hi everyone, Its been awhile and its good to be back. I recently went through an ordeal that's a real bane for those in this hobby. Moving... ...and playing Towers of Gear/Hanoi between dispersed storage facilities and a much smaller 'destination peg' My email has changed from dogas@leading.net to dogas@bellsouth.net (I promised a few of you some copies of docs and I can now take care of this) I reuploaded my ole cosmac site which can now found at: http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~dogas/cosmac and will be adding some more stuff here and there as things begin to settle. Cheers - Mike From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Nov 13 17:32:16 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Magnum-25 tester formatter In-Reply-To: <3A10489E.E8E9D915@rain.org> References: <3A0CC310.C84191C4@rain.org> <3.0.1.16.20001112233413.32676940@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001113183216.39aff3ce@mailhost.intellistar.net> Marvin, that was a hell of a find, you lucky dog! My buddy also got lucky when he got his PAT-2. It was in a box with about 20 different alignment disks! Joe At 12:01 PM 11/13/00 -0800, you wrote: > > >Joe wrote: > >> It doesn't sound like it. I have a NIB PAT-2+ and a buddy of mine has >> another and there's nothing on the box or in the manuals even close to the >> description that Marvin gave. >> >> Marvin, I can post a picture of the PAT-2 if you want to see if your >> units look anything like it. > >Thanks Joe but it won't be necessary. The PAT-2 is a Dyson unit and I think >that is the unit Don was talking about, not the Magnum-25. It looks like I >have about 4 - 6 of the Dysan units and hopefully at some point I will have >time to check them out. There were a number of other disk testers in the lot >that all came from a person who repairs floppy and hard disks. I would like >to get schematics on these units though! > >There was a lot of other stuff included in this lot; a SWTPC 6800 computer >manual, probably eight Mac Plus, Classic, SE computers, documentation on a >number of older floppy disks, a MAC SE still in the box, and a lot of other >similar stuff. What I am mostly interested is the documentation. I might add >that this was all free and what I didn't take ended up at either the recycle >yard or the dump. It pays to build a network of friends who can let us know >when something like this is taking place!!!!! > From whdawson at mlynk.com Mon Nov 13 17:08:42 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Weird Displays (was Homebrewing...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c04dc6$aa49cac0$b49e72d1@cobweb.net> -> On 12 Nov 2000, Frank McConnell wrote: -> -> > "Rick Bensene" wrote: -> > > > in some sort of Genrad whatsit that he was getting ready to scrap. -> > > > (He's keeping the display digits though.) Each digit is a box with a -> > > > bunch of tiny incandescent bulbs mounted in the back; each bulb -> > -> > > Check out the following electronic calculator in my -> > > museum of old calculators: -> > > http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators/canon161.html -> > > -> > > It uses this exact type of display. Pretty amazing stuff. -> > -> > Thanks. Yes, that is the same sort of thing. One difference (perhaps -> > an improvement) in the Genrad digit-display modules is that the -> > grain-of-wheat bulbs are just slid into tubes in the back of the -> > module -- their contacts poke out the back of the module and mate up -> > with spring-loaded contacts in the display chassis. Also, the modules -> > slide out from the front of the unit, so replacing the bulbs is fairly -> > straightforward and can be done without soldering. -> > -> > -Frank McConnell -> > -> Your description of the bulb mounting sounds more like the projection -> type display wherein each bulb projected the image of a digit or -> character onto a frosted plastic screeen at the viewed end. Each bulb -> had a small lens associated with it to focus the image on the screen. -> IIRC, they were typically about 1.5 x 2.0 x 4.0" and were constructed -> from an aluminum extruded(?) box. -> -> - don These were used heavily in the US Navy, in the Hughes Aircraft Company consoles, which were used with the NTDS systems. When I was stationed at the training center in Dam Neck, VA there were many OPS mockups. NTDS console operators were trained there, and software was also developed. I remember many a midshift spent replacing those bulbs and film. I still have one _somewhere_. Historical trivia: Who was the first NTDS program manager? Answer is at the end of this post. Speaking of the Navy, has anyone ever heard of the Univac Digital Trainer (UDT). It was developed in the mid 60's and had a Friden Flexowriter for I/O (with punch and reader). I remember we had a room full of them at Mare Island (Vallejo, CA) for training on. I guess my age is showing, but I'd sure wouldn't mind adding a Univac CP-642A (first production NTDS computer, the size of a large refrigerator) to my collection, since this was the first "real" computer I learned to repair and program. I imagine freight would be a killer, though. Anyone out there collecting these old beasts? Univac 642/A, Univac 642/B, AN/UYK-7, AN/UYK-20? Bill Answer: Seymour R. Cray was the first Univac NTDS program manager From optimus at canit.se Mon Nov 13 17:21:26 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: 80186 Nimbus Message-ID: <622.353T1300T214869optimus@canit.se> On the subject of whether the Research Machines 80186 based computer was called PC1 or Nimbus, I managed to dig out an old issue of Practical Computing (March 1985) where the machine is reviewed. It is actually called RM Nimbus, but is available in two models - PC1 and PC2. Thus, both parties were right. It features 3.5" floppy drives, an 8910 three-voice sound chip (Is this the same as the YM2149?) as well as an Oki digitised voice chip, and has dedicated graphics chips which are quite speedy. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Menyn ?r inte lika sexig som telnet, det ?r h?rt men sant. Petri Oksanen #38 p? SUGA BBS From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 13 18:10:58 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? Message-ID: <001701c04dcf$66457190$43759a8d@ajp166> From: Don Maslin >> On Sat, 11 Nov 2000, ajp166 wrote: > >I realize now that it would not in that it is the 80188 vice 80186 >version. > - don V40 and V50 are the 8/16 bit bus versions with the 188/6 style core and different added peripherals that the 80188/6 didn't have. Just to be clear. Allison From THETechnoid at home.com Mon Nov 13 18:16:17 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME In-Reply-To: <1006.351T1650T2275731optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20001114000554.NAAX26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> In <1006.351T1650T2275731optimus@canit.se>, on 11/13/00 at 07:16 PM, "Iggy Drougge" said: >> well, maybe if it contained ChibiChibi-JarJar pairing.. >Okay, so now I'm thinking about a threesome between ChibiChibi, Jar-Jar >and Pikachu. You bastard. > A. Jones Yeah, that was the first thing to come to my mind..... ;-) Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From claudew at sprint.ca Mon Nov 13 18:38:39 2000 From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? Message-ID: <3A10898F.A039AF44@sprint.ca> Hi I am being offered a Sun Sparc2 locally. These are not really common where I live...I could always get one from ebay...still Seems my collection of "home pc's" will now be extended to Sun systems...I am not familliar with these really... Rather then search the net for hours, I taught I might find an "expert" here to give me straight answers... Unit comes with keyboard, mouse, 64M ram 2G HD. What a decent price for this? They seem to go for anything from $10 to $40 on epay... What kinda monitor will this need? What should I check for? What kinda performance does this thing offer if I wanna try it out? (compared to...) It will run Linux right? Claude From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 13 18:27:02 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? Message-ID: <009e01c04dd3$9ceb7a10$43759a8d@ajp166> From: Dwight Elvey >Hi > Which 80186? These came in a lot of flavors. Every letter >following meant a change in pinouts or some feature inside. >All of the 80186's had some amount of select line decoding. >This along made them completely incompatible, pin wise, with >any of the more standard '86 family parts. >Dwight Ah no, the 80186 and the 80188 were the only versions though the PACKAGE was different with plastic and ceramic plus PLCC and other varients. The only other version was the CMOS varients same part in cmos. That it up held by my Intel 1987 embedded controller Handbook. The incompatability with other family of '86 parts was not from package but from differences like the DMA controller and interrupt controller are not the same as the more common 8237 and 8259A that are used with 8088/6 and the 286 family. That created the incompatability based on programming model and addresses used. FYI: the 186 approach was a better implementation than PC style. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 13 19:02:39 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? In-Reply-To: <3A10898F.A039AF44@sprint.ca> from "Claude" at Nov 13, 2000 07:38:39 PM Message-ID: <200011140102.RAA29618@shell1.aracnet.com> > I am being offered a Sun Sparc2 locally. These are not really common > where I live...I could always get one from ebay...still Well.... In all honesty a Sparc 2 is a dog.... > Seems my collection of "home pc's" will now be extended to Sun > systems...I am not familliar with these really... No problem, they're fairly simple and definitly cool little machines. > Rather then search the net for hours, I taught I might find an "expert" > here to give me straight answers... > > Unit comes with keyboard, mouse, 64M ram 2G HD. What a decent price for > this? They seem to go for anything from $10 to $40 on epay... The $10-40 range seems fair. The real question is what S-Bus cards does it include. Does it have a Framebuffer or anything else? The S-Bus cards can raise its value. Remember this machine is a real dog by todays standards, try and keep the price as low as possible. If it had the 32MB RAM S-Bus board, or better yet, that and the 32MB Piggyback board for either 96MB or 128MB, then it would be an OK system. Mine has a total of 96MB, but came with only 64MB. With Solaris 2.6 I couldn't run Netscape in 64MB, but it's OK in 96MB. Obviously running another OS or OS version will result in different results. > What kinda monitor will this need? I'm guessing it would depend on the framebuffer, I'm really not up on this as mine is headless. > What should I check for? > What kinda performance does this thing offer if I wanna try it out? > (compared to...) Well, it just so happens I was looking this up to compare my SS2 to the SS10 I just got. I've chopped out a lot of the below table so that it isn't quite so huge. I think the stuff below is all workstations (not sure on the HP's). Just remember these are the SPECint92 and SPECfp92 numbers. Things such as I/O and how much RAM you've got, as well as the OS you're running will effect how fast the machine *feels*. ******** TABLE 7: SPECint92, SPECfp92 ******** Notes: - SPECint92 is derived from the results of a set of integer benchmarks, and can be used to estimate a machine's single-tasking performance on integer code. - SPECfp92 is derived from the results of a set of floating point benchmarks, and can be used to estimate a machine's single-tasking performance on floating-point code. (to sort on SPECint92/SPECfp92, "sort -n +0.48 -0.55"/"sort -n +0.56 -0.63" ) Field start, end column positions: 0,17 18,28 29,36 37,47 48,55 56,63 64,69 70,79 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- System CPU ClkMHz Cache SPECint SPECfp Info Source Name (NUMx)Type ext/in Ext+I/D 92 92 Date Obtained ================= ========== ======= ========== ======= ======= ===== ========= DEC VAX11/780 VAX 5 8 1.0 1.0 Jan89 SPEC Ref DEC VAX3100/38 ? ? ? 3.5 3.8 Mar93 DECinfo DEC VAX3100/76 REX520 ? 128 7.1 6.6 Mar93 DECinfo DEC VAX4000VLC SOC ? 25 5.8 6.3 Mar93 DECinfo DEC VAX4000/60 KA46 22.2 ? 11.1 12.6 Mar93 DECinfo DEC VAX4000/90 NVAX 71 2/8 ? 30.2 Sep92 SPEC news DEC 5000/20 R3000 20 64/64 13.5 18.4 Jun93 DECinfo DEC 5000/25 R3000 25 64/64 15.7 21.7 Jun93 DECinfo DEC 5000/33 R3000 33 64/128 20.9 23.4 Sep92 SPEC news DEC 5000/50,150 R4000 50/100 1M+8/8 46.7 45.9 Sep93 c.arch DEC 5000/120 R3000 20 64/64 13.8 18.4 Jun93 DECinfo DEC 5000/125 R3000 25 64/64 16.1 21.7 Jun93 DECinfo DEC 5000/133 R3000 33 64/128 20.9 29.1 Jun93 DECinfo DEC 5000/200 R3000 25 64/64 19.5 26.7 Jun93 DECinfo DEC 5000/240 R3000 40 64/64 27.9 35.8 Jun93 DECinfo DEC 5000/260 R4400 60/120 1M+16/16 57.1 54.5 Sep93 c.arch DEC 5000/280 R4400 60/120 1M+16/16 56.9 55.6 Jun93 DECinfo DEC 3000/300 A21064 30/150 256+8/8 66.2 91.5 Apr93 c.sun.mc DEC 3000/300L A21064 20/100 256+8/8 45.9 63.6 Apr93 c.sun.mc DEC 3000/300LX A21064 25/125 256+8/8 63.5 75.5 May94 SPEC news DEC 3000/300X A21064 35/175 256+8/8 84.4 100.5 May94 SPEC news DEC 255/233 A21064A ??/233 1M+16/16 180.0 210.0 Mar96 Digital DEC 255/300 A21064A ??/300 1M+16/16 215.0 245.0 Mar96 Digital DEC 500/266 A21164 43/266 2M+96+8/8 329.0 405.0 Mar96 Digital DEC 500/333 A21164 46/333 2M+96+8/8 389.6 480.1 Mar96 Digital DEC [24]00/4/166 A21064 33/166 512+8/8 116.2 134.8 Jul95 Digital DEC [24]00/4/233 A21064A 39/233 512+16/16 157.7 183.9 Apr95 Digital DEC 600/5/266 A21164 38/266 2M+96+8/8 289.0 405.0 Jul95 Digital DEC 600/5/266 A21164 38/266 4M+96+8/8 292.8 433.5 Jul95 Digital DEC 600/5/300 A21164 75/300 4M+96+8/8 337.8 502.1 Jul95 Digital DEC 600/5/333 A21164 83/333 4M+96+8/8 412.4 545.2 Jan96 Digital HP 705 PA1.1 35 32/64 21.9 33.0 Nov92 Sunflash HP 710 PA1.1 50 32/64 31.6 47.6 Oct92 c.arch HP 712/60 PA7100LC 60 64 67.0 85.3 Jun95 www.hp HP 712/80i PA7100LC 80 256 84.1 79.0 Jan94 HP HP 712/80 PA7100LC 80 256 97.1 123.3 Jun95 www.hp HP 712/100 PA7100LC 100 256 117.2 144.2 Jun95 www.hp HP 715/33 PA7100 33 64/64 32.5 52.4 Jan94 HP HP 715/50 PA7100 50 64/64 49.2 78.8 Jan94 HP HP 715/75 PA7100 75 256/256 82.6 127.2 Jan94 HP HP 715/64 PA7100LC 64 256 80.6 109.4 Jun95 www.hp HP 715/80 PA7100LC 80 256 96.3 123.2 Jun95 www.hp HP 715/100 PA7100LC 100 256 115.1 138.7 Jun95 www.hp HP 715/100XC PA7100LC 100 1M 132.2 184.6 Jun95 www.hp HP 720 PA1.1 50 128/256 38.5 66.1 Jun93 DECinfo HP 725 PA7100 50 64/64 37.1 72.8 Apr93 Sunflash HP 725/75 PA7100 75 256/256 80.3 126.8 May94 HP HP 730 PA1.1 66 128/256 47.8 75.4 May92 c.sun.hw HP 7[35]5 PA7100 99 256/256 109.1 167.9 Jan94 HP HP 7[35]5/125 PA7150 125 256/256 136 201 Apr94 HP HP 750 PA1.1 66 256/256 48.1 75.0 Oct92 c.arch IBM 320H POWER 25 8/64 20.9 39.4 Nov92 Sunflash IBM 340 POWER 33 8/32 27.7 51.9 Oct92 c.arch IBM 350 POWER 41.6 8/32 35.4 74.2 Nov92 Digital IBM 355 POWER 41.6 32/32 48.1 83.3 Sep93 c.arch IBM 365,570 POWER 50 32/32 57.5 99.2 Sep93 c.arch IBM 37[05T] POWER 62.5 32/32 70.3 121.1 Sep93 c.arch IBM 380 POWER2 59 32/64 99.3 187.2 Mar95 www.ibm IBM 390 POWER2 67 1M+32/64 114.3 205.3 Feb95 www.ibm Sun SS/ELC FJMB86903 33 64 18.2 17.9 Nov92 Sunflash Sun SS/IPC FJMB86902 25 64 13.8 11.1 Nov92 Sunflash Sun SS/IPX FJMB86903 40 64 21.8 21.5 Nov92 Sunflash Sun SS2 RT601 40 64 21.8 22.8 Oct92 c.arch Sun SS2/PowerUp WeitekPwUP 40/80 16/8 32.2 31.1 Jun93 c.sun.an Sun SS10/20 SuprSP 33 20/16 39.8 46.6 Nov92 Sunflash Sun SS10/30 SuprSP 36 20/16 45.2 54.0 Apr93 Cockcroft Sun SS10/40 SuprSP 40 20/16 50.2 60.2 Apr93 Sunflash Sun SS10/41 SuprSP 40/40.3 1M+20/16 53.2 67.8 Apr93 Cockcroft Sun SS10/51 SuprSP 40/50 1M+20/16 65.2 83.0 Apr93 Sunflash Sun Classic,LX MicroSP 50 4/2 26.4 21.0 Nov92 Sunflash Sun Voyager MicroSP2 60 16/8 43.2 36.2 Mar94 Sun Sun SS4/70 MicroSP2 70 16/8 59.6 46.8 Jan95 Sunflash Sun SS4/85 MicroSP2 85 16/8 65.3 53.1 May95 SunIntro Sun SS5/70 MicroSP2 70 16/8 57.0 47.3 Mar94 Sunflash Sun SS5/85 MicroSP2 85 16/8 65.3 53.1 May95 SunIntro Sun SS5/110 MicroSP2 110 16/8 78.6 65.3 May95 SunIntro Sun SS5/Turbo160 TurboSP 80/160 512+16/16 132 111 Nov96 FujiMicro Sun SS20/50 SuprSP 50 20/16 76.9 80.1 May95 SunIntro Sun SS20/51 SuprSP 40/50 1M+20/16 81.8 89.0 May95 SunIntro Sun SS20/61 SuprSP 50/60 1M+20/16 98.2 107.2 May95 SunIntro Sun SS20/71 SuprSP2 50/75 1M+20/16 125.8 121.2 Jan95 SunIntro Sun SS20/612 2xSuprSP 50/60 1M+20/16 ? 127.1 Sep94 SPEC news Sun SS20/HS11 HyperSP 50/100 256+8/0 104.5 127.6 Nov94 SunIntro Sun SS20/HS21 HyperSP 50/125 256+8/0 131.2 153.0 May95 SunIntro Sun SS20/151 HyperSP 50/150 512+8/0 169.4 208.2 Nov95 SunWorld Sun Ultra1/140 UltSP 71/143 512+16/16 215 303 Nov95 SunIntro Sun Ultra1/170 UltSP 83/167 512+16/16 252 351 Nov95 SunIntro Sun Ultra2/2200 2xUltSP 100/200 1M+16/16 332 505 Nov95 SunIntro Intel 486DX 80486 50 256+8 30.1 14.0 Oct92 c.arch Intel 486DX2 80486DX2 33/66 0+8 32.4 16.1 Sep92 uproc rpt Intel Xpress Pentium 60 256+8/8 70.4 55.1 Mar95 www.intel Intel Xpress Pentium 66 256+8/8 78.0 63.6 Mar95 www.intel Intel Xpress Pentium 50/75 512+8/8 89.1 68.5 Mar95 www.intel Intel Xpress Pentium 60/90 512+8/8 106.5 81.4 Mar95 www.intel Intel Xpress Pentium 60/90 1M+8/8 110.1 84.4 Mar95 www.intel Intel Xpress Pentium 66/100 512+8/8 118.1 89.9 Mar95 www.intel Intel Xpress Pentium 66/100 1M+8/8 121.9 93.2 Mar95 www.intel Intel Xpress Pentium 60/120 512+8/8 133.7 99.5 Mar95 www.intel Intel Xpress Pentium 60/120 1M+8/8 140.0 103.9 Mar95 www.intel Intel Xpress Pentium 66/133 512+8/8 147.5 109.6 Jun95 www.intel Intel Xpress Pentium 66/133 1M+8/8 155.5 116.9 Jun95 www.intel Intel XXpress Pentium 66/100 1M+8/8 137.7 ? Jan96 www.intel Intel XXpress Pentium 60/120 1M+8/8 157.3 108.4 Jan96 www.intel Intel XXpress Pentium 66/133 1M+8/8 174.2 120.6 Jan96 www.intel Intel XXpress Pentium 60/150 1M+8/8 181.4 ? Jan96 www.intel Intel XXpress Pentium 66/166 1M+8/8 197.5 ? Jan96 www.intel Intel Alder PentPro 150 256+8/8 243.9 220.0 Jan96 www.intel Intel Alder PentPro 166 512+8/8 327.1 261.3 Nov95 www.intel Intel Alder PentPro 180 256+8/8 287.1 254.6 Jan96 www.intel Intel Alder PentPro 200 256+8/8 318.4 283.2 Jan96 www.intel > It will run Linux right? It looks like it, plus it should run SunOS, Solaris, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. Zane From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 13 19:06:02 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Magnum-25 tester formatter In-Reply-To: <3A10489E.E8E9D915@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Nov 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > Joe wrote: > > > It doesn't sound like it. I have a NIB PAT-2+ and a buddy of mine has > > another and there's nothing on the box or in the manuals even close to the > > description that Marvin gave. > > > > Marvin, I can post a picture of the PAT-2 if you want to see if your > > units look anything like it. > > Thanks Joe but it won't be necessary. The PAT-2 is a Dyson unit and I think > that is the unit Don was talking about, not the Magnum-25. It looks like I > have about 4 - 6 of the Dysan units and hopefully at some point I will have > time to check them out. There were a number of other disk testers in the lot > that all came from a person who repairs floppy and hard disks. I would like > to get schematics on these units though! Yes, the Dysan PAT-2 was what I was referring to. The manual does not provide schematics, but the point of contact for the units is - well a few years back anyway - Accurite Technologies Inc. Tech Hotline 408-433-1716 FAX 408-433-1716 M-F 0800-1700 PST They may also have a website. - don > There was a lot of other stuff included in this lot; a SWTPC 6800 computer > manual, probably eight Mac Plus, Classic, SE computers, documentation on a > number of older floppy disks, a MAC SE still in the box, and a lot of other > similar stuff. What I am mostly interested is the documentation. I might add > that this was all free and what I didn't take ended up at either the recycle > yard or the dump. It pays to build a network of friends who can let us know > when something like this is taking place!!!!! > From marvin at rain.org Mon Nov 13 19:46:32 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Magnum-25 tester formatter References: Message-ID: <3A109978.EA850764@rain.org> Don Maslin wrote: > > Yes, the Dysan PAT-2 was what I was referring to. The manual does not > provide schematics, but the point of contact for the units is - well a > few years back anyway - Accurite Technologies Inc. > Tech Hotline 408-433-1716 > FAX 408-433-1716 > M-F 0800-1700 PST > They may also have a website. Thanks Don. They do have a web site at http://www.accurite.com/ but they don't seem to have any information there about the PAT series of testers. I'll know more about what I need once I try them :). From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 13 19:55:59 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? In-Reply-To: <009e01c04dd3$9ceb7a10$43759a8d@ajp166> References: <009e01c04dd3$9ceb7a10$43759a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20001114015559.28805.qmail@brouhaha.com> Dwight Elvey wrote: > Which 80186? These came in a lot of flavors. Every letter > following meant a change in pinouts or some feature inside. Allison wrote: > Ah no, the 80186 and the 80188 were the only versions though the > PACKAGE was different with plastic and ceramic plus PLCC and > other varients. The only other version was the CMOS varients > same part in cmos. That it up held by my Intel 1987 embedded > controller Handbook. You're both right. Originally there was only one major version of each of the 80186 and 80188, with only minor variants for packaging (and maybe speed grades?). But in more recent years, Intel has added a plethora of variants identified by a two letter suffix, where there are non-trivial funtional differences. I think this trend in Intel part numbering started some years ago with the 8051FA. They stopped assigning a different number to functional variants, and added alpha suffixes instead. This has since been done on the i386, i486, i860, i960, 8096, 80196, and other parts. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 13 21:00:02 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Old tandy 1000 keyboard 8 pin din pinout? Message-ID: <00d101c04de7$64641a80$43759a8d@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith >You're both right. Originally there was only one major version of each >of the 80186 and 80188, with only minor variants for packaging (and >maybe speed grades?). The first release was in two speeds. later plastic packages and different lead options. Also the 80C18x flavors. >But in more recent years, Intel has added a plethora of variants >identified by a two letter suffix, where there are non-trivial funtional >differences. I think this trend in Intel part numbering started >some years ago with the 8051FA. They stopped assigning a different With standard cell libraries for the last 10 or so years that doesn't surprize me. I stopped collecting intel data books after '89. Allison From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 13 22:15:36 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Magnum-25 tester formatter In-Reply-To: <3A109978.EA850764@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Nov 2000, Marvin wrote: > > > Don Maslin wrote: > > > > Yes, the Dysan PAT-2 was what I was referring to. The manual does not > > provide schematics, but the point of contact for the units is - well a > > few years back anyway - Accurite Technologies Inc. > > Tech Hotline 408-433-1716 > > FAX 408-433-1716 > > M-F 0800-1700 PST > > They may also have a website. > > Thanks Don. They do have a web site at http://www.accurite.com/ but they > don't seem to have any information there about the PAT series of testers. > I'll know more about what I need once I try them :). You ring a bell with that. As I recall, they had concluded that the then latest round of diagnostic diskettes had pretty well eliminated the market for the PAT series. The diskettes did very much the same job and were sure tidier to carry around! - don From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Mon Nov 13 21:58:30 2000 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: picture of IBM system/45 sought In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001113225736.00aff640@popmail.voicenet.com> At 01:33 PM 11/13/00 -0600, you wrote: >I have someone trying to give me an IBM system/45, supposedly in pristine >working condition with boot tapes, etc. Never heard of a System/45 What is it and when was it made? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 13 22:46:03 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? In-Reply-To: <3A10898F.A039AF44@sprint.ca> from "Claude" at Nov 13, 2000 07:38:39 PM Message-ID: <200011140446.UAA13495@shell1.aracnet.com> > Seems my collection of "home pc's" will now be extended to Sun > systems...I am not familliar with these really... Happened to think of something that might help get you up to speed. Try the following URL's. http://www.sunhelp.org/pages.php?page=info-ref and http://www.sunhelp.org/ The first is the Sun Hardware Reference, it's out of date, but for what you're interested in it should be a big help. The second is the front page of SunHelp, which is probably the best place to start looking for Sun info. Zane P.S. Yes, I'm aware they're both the same site. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 13 22:59:12 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: picture of IBM system/45 sought In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001113204704.02a7a0c0@208.226.86.10> At 01:33 PM 11/13/00 -0600, Jay wrote: >I have someone trying to give me an IBM system/45, supposedly in pristine >working condition with boot tapes, etc. Hmmm, I am taking a leap here but I'm guessing he's talking about a 4000 series server. (4531 sticks in my mind but isn't verified by IBM docs) There is a complete line of "small" 3xx architecture machines (we had one at Sun) that ran OS/VM and CICS and TSO. If it is then these are the answers: >A) What OS did it run OS/VM, TSO/MVS, CICS, AIX >B) Programmers front panel? Ok, I'll admit it, I like blinkenlitzen No, but there was a special 3270 terminal with light pen that had the "console" on it. >C) Rough size? Think long VAX 6000. The one at Sun was 5' tall and probably 8' long. >D) Power requirements? 240 three phase. >E) Most helpfull, would be a picture? This I've not found. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 13 23:43:44 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: OT: looking for Interphase 4220 VME SCSI board Message-ID: <14864.53520.44249.457814@phaduka.neurotica.com> Hi folks...sorry for the off-topic post, but this list is about the best non-mainstream-hardware resource I can find. I'm rather desperately in need of an Interphase 4220 VME SCSI board. One will solve my problem, but I'd really like to get my hands on a couple more. Does anyone here have one that they wouldn't mind selling, or can someone point me in the right direction? Thanks, -Dave McGuire From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Nov 14 03:20:57 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Montreal computer run In-Reply-To: References: <008401c04d39$3ba33440$a813f4d8@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I plan to be in Montreal next week, 11/18 to 11/27, and should have some time during the week to fiddle around. With this in mind I have just about convinced my wife to allow me ONE large suitcase for computer stuff (hopefully different stuff each way). I am open to suggestions on places to see, why this is insane, or amusing things to say to customs people, plus requests for stuff to bring up. My web site is horribly out of date, prices now close to meaningless, and I have a LOT more stuff. Maybe I will get the pictures links going before I leave, but lots of other stuff are in the way. http://home.socal.rr.com/mikeford/index.html From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Nov 14 03:34:04 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? In-Reply-To: <200011140446.UAA13495@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 08:46:03PM -0800 References: <3A10898F.A039AF44@sprint.ca> <200011140446.UAA13495@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20001114033404.P2478@mrbill.net> On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 08:46:03PM -0800, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > http://www.sunhelp.org/pages.php?page=info-ref > and > http://www.sunhelp.org/ Thanks for the plug. The Sun Hardware Reference is (slowly) being updated; http://sun-ref.sunhelp.org. Bill (aka mrbill@sunhelp.org) -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From agraham at ccat.co.uk Tue Nov 14 07:20:16 2000 From: agraham at ccat.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Who wanted a Lisa keyboard? Message-ID: <00Nov14.132018gmt.46095@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=493245808 -- Adrian Graham MCSE/ASE/MCP C CAT Limited Gubbins: http://www.ccat.co.uk (work) (home) (The Online Computer Museum) 0/0 From agraham at ccat.co.uk Tue Nov 14 08:20:48 2000 From: agraham at ccat.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: RM Nimbus Message-ID: <00Nov14.142055gmt.46095@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> >Date: 14 Nov 00 00:21:26 +0100 >From: "Iggy Drougge" >Subject: 80186 Nimbus > >On the subject of whether the Research Machines 80186 based computer was >called PC1 or Nimbus, I managed to dig out an old issue of Practical Computing >(March 1985) where the machine is reviewed. >It is actually called RM Nimbus, but is available in two models - PC1 and PC2. >Thus, both parties were right. >It features 3.5" floppy drives, an 8910 three-voice sound chip (Is this the >same as the YM2149?) as well as an Oki digitised voice chip, and has dedicated >graphics chips which are quite speedy. I took some pix of mine last night but my ISP was acting up so I couldn't upload 'em. Mine is RM Nimbus PC1 and it has 2 cart slots on the front as well as a bundle of ports on the back including colour AND mono monitors, keyboard, mouse, RJ11 printer connector, RJ11 'aux' or 'piconet' connector, Ethernet connector (BNC) and 4 or 5 expansion slots, one of which carried the IO board. Sound and voice you say? Hmmmm :) What OS did it run then? DOS or CP/M? More importantly, has anyone got spare {whatever} disks? From THETechnoid at home.com Tue Nov 14 08:36:24 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Intro and Nixies In-Reply-To: <3A0EDB5F.7A475E55@primenet.com> Message-ID: <20001114142731.JOYV26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Aren't the NIXIES you mention vaccume tubes with letters or numbers in them? Used as displays WAY back when? Ed Kirby at Computer Parts Barn has a few of those he might sell. EDCPB@EMAIL.COM Computer Parts Barn 16 London Rd Asheville, NC 28801 828-274-5963 <3A0EDB5F.7A475E55@primenet.com>, on 11/14/00 at 09:36 AM, J Forbes said: >Hi, I've been lurking for a week or so. I'm not a computer guy per >se...my brothers got that! but I pick up some stuff. I have basement >full of mostly mid 80s 8088 boxes, as well as some Kaypro cp/m machines, >and some newer wintel machines. See: -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From THETechnoid at home.com Tue Nov 14 09:42:12 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: ADM3a dumb terminal In-Reply-To: <200007051454.JAA42703@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20001114153159.LLXJ26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Ed Kirby has one at Computer Parts Barn. 828-274-5963. I don't know what he will ask for it, but it can't be very much. Regards, Jeff In <200007051454.JAA42703@opal.tseinc.com>, on 11/14/00 at 10:42 AM, LFessen106@aol.com said: >can anyone tell me where I might be able to find 1(one) ADM 5 or ADM 3 >text terminal? Always wanted one, but they're hard to find and I would >rather not pay the exorbident prices on ebay for one. Also, has anyone >here had any luck hooking one of them up to a unix/linux box? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Nov 14 09:32:22 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:47 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? Message-ID: Claude asked (of a Sun Sparc2) >> It will run Linux right? Zane added: >It looks like it, plus it should run SunOS, Solaris, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. Cool table of SPEC(int,fp), Zane. Thanks! Where's this from? I believe NeXTStep/OpenStep will also run on those machines. My "dream machine" would be a SS5/110, couple Gigs HD space, OpenStep 4.2/Dev, Mathematica, Trinitron Monitor ... ... - Mark From agraham at ccat.co.uk Tue Nov 14 10:20:54 2000 From: agraham at ccat.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: value of Apple ///, also CBM P500 stuff Message-ID: <00Nov14.162057gmt.46094@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> Hi folks, After my crash in the summer my solicitors want to know how much it would cost to replace the Apple /// that received a mashed keyboard (physically broken veroboard along with several tracks). A quick ebay search reveals none currently for sale, and I must admit I've only ever seen 2 offered in the UK and they're the 2 I've got! Any clues as to the current replacement value? Obviously this has to include availability and it must work......similarly for the HP Apollo 9000-400 I'm claiming for. As for the P500 I've been told that there were both European AND US versions, the european one being massively more common than the US one. Since none of the websites I know about that mention the P500 include this info does anyone know how accurate it is? I'm getting another one this weekend to add to the collection as well as a boxed MOS KIM-1 and heavily expanded PET8296 :o)) More news on that lot when it arrives. -- Adrian Graham MCSE/ASE/MCP C CAT Limited Gubbins: http://www.ccat.co.uk (work) (home) (The Online Computer Museum) 0/0 From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Nov 14 10:21:18 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? References: Message-ID: <3A11667E.CFFD97FF@cornell.edu> Mark Tapley wrote: > > Claude asked (of a Sun Sparc2) > >> It will run Linux right? > > Zane added: > >It looks like it, plus it should run SunOS, Solaris, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. > > Cool table of SPEC(int,fp), Zane. Thanks! Where's this from? > > I believe NeXTStep/OpenStep will also run on those machines. My "dream > machine" would be a SS5/110, couple Gigs HD space, OpenStep 4.2/Dev, > Mathematica, Trinitron Monitor ... ... > - Mark Hmm.. an HP 735/125 will also run NeXTStep, it is twice as fast, much cheaper than the SS5, and nice monitors like the 19" A2094A (trinitron) are cheap these days. I have both an SS5 and a 735/125, and believe me, the speed difference shows. \begin{shamelessplug} I have an A2094A monitor up for auction on eBay, together with some other hp200/300/400 stuff. \end{shamelessplug} -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com Tue Nov 14 10:26:52 2000 From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Intro and Nixies In-Reply-To: <20001114142731.JOYV26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> References: <20001114142731.JOYV26316.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <00111410323403.00200@Billbob_linux> Hi, On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, you wrote: > Aren't the NIXIES you mention vaccume tubes with letters or numbers in > them? Used as displays WAY back when? Tubes they are, but "vacuum" would be a misnomer, as nixie tubes are what is known as "glow discharge" devices. Rather than a vacuum, nixies contain a atmosphere of noble gasses, such as neon. They are really little more than tiny neon lamps, with multiple elements. Bill Layer Sales Technician +----------------------------------+ Viking Electronics, Inc. 1531 Industrial St. Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A 715.386.8861 ext. 210 +----------------------------------+ "Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century" Powered by Slackware Linux 7.1.0 From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Tue Nov 14 10:33:19 2000 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Data General/MASK was Re: DG Nova 4 References: <20001108091814.A15552@stronghold.xs4all.nl> <00a901c04d9a$bbb7c860$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <008401c04e58$9b696c80$05247452@dellhare> G'day Mike - I'm not familiar with those serial number formats - DG has quite a few different main computer lines divided into the following major groups: 16-bit Nova 16-bit Eclipse 32-bit MV [also called MV/EClipse] Motorola 88000-based AViiON systems now Intel x86-based AViiON systems. DG was also recently purchased by EMC mainly for its RAID storage line, the CLARiiON. We are trying to collect, preserve and archive all DG 16-bit related hard/soft/doc-ware (www.SimuLogics.com ) and am moving to 32-bit MV preservation faster than initially intended. Carl Friend and Chris Kennedy are good resource due to enthusiasm and experience. I would need to know more to answer about the model numbers or physical description to give you better answer... Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Kenzie" To: Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 10:54 AM Subject: Data General/MASK was Re: DG Nova 4 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ClassicCmp" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 3:18 AM > Subject: DG Nova 4 > > > > Hello people, > > > > I'm currently seeking information on Data General's Nova > line of > > minicomputers. > > In one of my last hauls I ended up with 3 machines from Mask > Computers after they were purchased by REBEL.COM. > > Would any open here know anything about these machines? > With the company no longer in business would they be worth > holding onto? > > Data General Ser No. DG-YC399M1215001 > > MASK systems Ser no. MASK97-00275 > > MASK systems Ser. no. EVAL-0069 > From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com Tue Nov 14 10:48:04 2000 From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: value of Apple ///, also CBM P500 stuff In-Reply-To: <00Nov14.162057gmt.46094@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> References: <00Nov14.162057gmt.46094@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> Message-ID: <00111410504105.00200@Billbob_linux> Hi Adrian, good question :) Any clues as to the current replacement > value? Obviously this has to include availability and it must > work...... I've got an Apple ///, with a ProFile HD and an Apple Monitor ///. I have never switched any of the equipment on, so state is unknown. I also lack any concept as to the value of the components. If you are able to ascertain a value, would you mind passing that info along to me as well? I will do the same for you, if I can find a valuation. -- Bill Layer Sales Technician +----------------------------------+ Viking Electronics, Inc. 1531 Industrial St. Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A 715.386.8861 ext. 210 +----------------------------------+ "Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century" Powered by Slackware Linux 7.1.0 From optimus at canit.se Mon Nov 13 17:30:14 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1376.353T700T304213optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> I don't think I could form any relationship to a 4-bitter, either. I woul= >Oh, there are a lot of them about. Of course it depends what you mean by >'4 bit', but if that's the ALU/bus width, then the HP Saturn processor (used >in the 71B, 28, 48, 49, etc, etc, etc) is a 4 bit chip. And I certainly like >those machines (and yes, IMHO they are computers rather than calculators). I have no idea what you're on about. =) Besides, a 4-bit address bus seems utterly, utterly limited. >> dn't >> mind a 64-bitter for NetBSD purposes, though. 26-bitters are also on my w= >> ish >> list. =3D) >26 bits? I can't think of a machine with a 26 bit data path. I believe >some ARMs have a 26 bit address bus, but that's hardly a 26 bit machine. >Now 24 bit machines can be interesting... Oh no? Finding an ARM-based machine around here is about as easy as finding a live condor in the northern hemisphere. What feature about the older ARM processors is 26 bit? >> In case you're fond of odd minis, why not a 36-bitter? Have a look at >> http://www.36bit.org/. >Yes, I'd like a PDP10 of some flavour, but (a) I've not seen one for sale >and (b) I've got nowhere to put one. I'd have problems just supplying sufficiently reliable electricity, seeing as there is no grounds in my flat. =/ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Computer hackers do it all night long. From optimus at canit.se Mon Nov 13 17:38:35 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: OT: _my_ PAL/NTSC question :-) In-Reply-To: <000601c04cf2$fe065b80$0101010a@pentium2> Message-ID: <1539.353T1750T384891optimus@canit.se> Gareth Knight skrev: >Shawn T. Rutledge >> In Europe multi-standard VCRs may be more common because they are >> much more necessary. >Until recently multi-standard VCRs were located in the high-end of the >market. I only began to notice it appearing in cheaper models about three >years ago. It depends upon the manufacturer- the VCR i bought last year does >not support NTSC but my parents' three year old model does. Perhaps I could >flash the bios. ;) I dare say that every VTR on the market now is dual-standard. Each and every one. Even my bottom-range Luma mono video bought last year supports NTSC playback. It won't play EP tapes, though, so I had to shell out for a stereo JVC later on, too. =/ However, these won't help in any way when you've got an NTSC signal which is not on a tape. OTOH, the more expensive TV sets now often have NTSC support. If you may obtain an RGB signal, thpough, that is always the way to go, since every TV made in the last decade and most TVs from the preceding one will support RGB. >> Do they automatically detect what kind of tape is being played >> or is there a switch to select it? If they detect it, I wonder >> how it's done. >You can enable/disable the option on a menu screen. My modern players do it automatically, whereas an 80s, once-expensive model may be switched between automatic and user-defined modes, as well as outputting pure signals as well as PAL converted ones. It is also my only VTR to support SECAM (pure SECAM, as opposed to MESECAM). -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Nov 14 11:41:00 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME References: <1376.353T700T304213optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3A11792C.8A91D038@cornell.edu> Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Tony Duell skrev: > > >> I don't think I could form any relationship to a 4-bitter, either. I woul= > > >Oh, there are a lot of them about. Of course it depends what you mean by > >'4 bit', but if that's the ALU/bus width, then the HP Saturn processor (used > >in the 71B, 28, 48, 49, etc, etc, etc) is a 4 bit chip. And I certainly like > >those machines (and yes, IMHO they are computers rather than calculators). > > I have no idea what you're on about. =) > Besides, a 4-bit address bus seems utterly, utterly limited. It gets better :-) . It is a multiplexed data/address bus; thirteen wires including ground and power, that's it. Four lines are data/address. The rest control the bus state and the soft configuration of the base addresses of all devices. The original saturn processor in the HP71 can access 1 meganibble, though. In a typical cycle, first, you need to write the address to all devices; this needs 5 clock cycles, one for each nibble in the address. However, once the address is written, up to sixteen contiguous nibbles can be read/written without having to put an address in the bus. This is optimized for bcd arithmetic. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Nov 14 11:58:48 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: OT: _my_ PAL/NTSC question :-) In-Reply-To: <1539.353T1750T384891optimus@canit.se>; from optimus@canit.se on Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 12:38:35AM +0100 References: <000601c04cf2$fe065b80$0101010a@pentium2> <1539.353T1750T384891optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20001114105848.P2710@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 12:38:35AM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: > I dare say that every VTR on the market now is dual-standard. Each and every > one. Even my bottom-range Luma mono video bought last year supports NTSC > playback. It won't play EP tapes, though, so I had to shell out for a stereo > JVC later on, too. =/ Yeah but do US VCRs do PAL... > > However, these won't help in any way when you've got an NTSC signal which is > not on a tape. OTOH, the more expensive TV sets now often have NTSC support. > If you may obtain an RGB signal, thpough, that is always the way to go, since > every TV made in the last decade and most TVs from the preceding one will > support RGB. If you're talking about the SCART connector, I've not seen any TVs or VCRs here that have them. (Not that I've been going around the stores looking for it though...) That's also a European thing. If I had a VCR with RGB out, that'd be a lot better because I could hook it up to my projector. (And I've been trying to get an NTSC decoder board for my RGB switcher on ebay for months now; keep getting "sniped" at the last minute, and forgetting to be there at the right time to do that myself.) I did get a DVD player with RGB out (that's a very rare feature here; usually they have YCbCr instead.) It's a lousy player in most other ways but at least I get the full resolution on my projector. It doesn't have a SCART connector either; separate RCA plugs for the three signals. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420 From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com Tue Nov 14 12:30:06 2000 From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Can't boot Bondwell B310+ Message-ID: <00111412350501.00224@Billbob_linux> Hi, I have a Bondwell B310+ laptop, the hard drive of which has been wiped clean. The machine resists my every effort to boot it from floppy. I have tried 1.44MB and 720K floppies, with DOS 7.0, 6.22 & 3.3. All attempts produce the same results - either "Non-Sytem disk or disk error" or "Disk I/O error". The floppy's spin & seek behaviors seem fine. I have seen a number of posts online, with the exact same issue on the B310+, and there has been mention of a special boot floppy for this machine. I need any help on information, thanks in advance. If you have a boot disk image, please send it and let me know what special format (if any) the image uses. Thanks, -- Bill Layer Sales Technician From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 14 12:37:22 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Electrohome RGB monitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1192.353T1100T11774901optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >Now, as to what uses it, it may have been used by a Japanese micro (there >were several, and many of them had RGB outputs). Or it may have been a >connector that you had to use a custom cable to link up to whatever you >wanted to use it with. Incidentally, while trawling around Yahoo! Japan, I found out that a lot of Japanese RGB monitors used SCART/Peritel connectors, though they're simply called "21 pin video" or things like that. I believe Sharp produced a line of such monitors for use with the X1 and X68000 series. If you're interested in Japanese micros, there are two places of particular interest to go to. The first one, in English, is the Japanese Computer Emulation Centre, http://www.jcec.co.uk/. The other one is Yahoo! Japan Auctions at http://auctions.yahoo.co.jp/. I haven't got the exact URL to the computer section, I'll look that up the next time I have the Japanese software on, but they have a "vintage" section, so just turn on gallery mode and enjoy the dazzling colours of Jap micros. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Alle meine Noten bringen mich nicht aus den N?ten, und ich schreibe noten ?berhaupt nur aus N?ten. --- Ludwig van Beethoven From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 14 12:57:02 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME In-Reply-To: <1376.353T700T304213optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Nov 14, 0 06:08:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1675 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001114/47315bfb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 14 12:50:08 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: value of Apple ///, also CBM P500 stuff In-Reply-To: <00Nov14.162057gmt.46094@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> from "Adrian Graham" at Nov 14, 0 04:20:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 587 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001114/41784a47/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Nov 14 14:07:27 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: pdp11/14, NASA, and Pioneer 10 Message-ID: <200011142007.NAA32042@calico.litterbox.com> I was reading Invention and Technology magazine today about how Pioneer 10 is STILL functional, but one of the problems they're having keeping it going looking for the heliopause is the pdp11/14 that compiles its commands is getting very hard to keep alive. I don't do old minis, but it seemed to me this was the kind of thing folks here would love to involve their classic iron in. Not sure who you'd contact, but according to the article the operations supervisor is Ric Campo. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From elvey at hal.com Tue Nov 14 14:38:16 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200011142038.MAA29698@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > Tony Duell skrev: > > > > >> I don't think I could form any relationship to a 4-bitter, either. I > woul= > > > > >Oh, there are a lot of them about. Of course it depends what you mean by > > >'4 bit', but if that's the ALU/bus width, then the HP Saturn processor > (used > > >in the 71B, 28, 48, 49, etc, etc, etc) is a 4 bit chip. And I certainly > like > > >those machines (and yes, IMHO they are computers rather than calculators). > > > > I have no idea what you're on about. =) > > Just about every HP calculator since the HP71B has been based on a CPU > called the Saturn (OK, the HP6S and HP30S aren't). This chip has a 4 bit > ALU and external bus, but with 64 bit data registers and a 20 bit address > width. > > > Besides, a 4-bit address bus seems utterly, utterly limited. > > > Who said anything about a 4 bit address? Address width != ALU width in > general... > The Saturn works with 20 bit addresses. Memory is 4 bits wide, so the > Saturn can address 1Mnybbles (or 512K bytes). Some modern machines > (HP49G, for example) have bank-switching hardware to extend this further. Hi We all agree that the i4004 was a 4 bit machine. It had a 12 bit address on a 4 bit bus that sounds similar to the HP one. The 4004 used register pairs, that doesn't make it a 8 bit machine. It also used 8 bit instructions. The bus does not define that it is a 4 bit machine. The width of the ALU does. Not the instruction width and not the address size or register size. I agree with Tony. IMHO Dwight From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 14 13:44:45 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: value of Apple ///, also CBM P500 stuff In-Reply-To: <00Nov14.162057gmt.46094@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, Adrian Graham wrote: > After my crash in the summer my solicitors want to know how much it would > cost to replace the Apple /// that received a mashed keyboard (physically > broken veroboard along with several tracks). A quick ebay search reveals > none currently for sale, and I must admit I've only ever seen 2 offered in > the UK and they're the 2 I've got! Any clues as to the current replacement > value? Obviously this has to include availability and it must > work......similarly for the HP Apollo 9000-400 I'm claiming for. I'd put a value on it of somewhere between US$50 to US$100, based upon condition. I sold one on eBay just before VCF 3.0 (1999) for some $500-$600 (can't remember the exact amount), but believe me when I tell you that was a fluke. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Nov 14 15:02:39 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: value of Apple ///, also CBM P500 stuff Message-ID: In a message dated Tue, 14 Nov 2000 3:57:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, Sellam Ismail writes: ><< On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, Adrian Graham wrote: >> After my crash in the summer my solicitors want to >know how much it would >> cost to replace the Apple /// that received a mashed >keyboard (physically >> broken veroboard along with several tracks). A quick >ebay search reveals >> none currently for sale, and I must admit I've only >ever seen 2 offered in >> the UK and they're the 2 I've got! Any clues as to >the current replacement >> value? Obviously this has to include availability >and it must >> work......similarly for the HP Apollo 9000-400 I'm >claiming for. >I'd put a value on it of somewhere between US$50 to >US$100, based upon >condition. >I sold one on eBay just before VCF 3.0 (1999) for some >$500-$600 (can't >remember the exact amount), but believe me when I tell >you that was a >fluke. >Sellam Ismail >Vintage Computer Festival -------------------------------------------------------- I'll admit, they are uncommon but not rare. I myself bought a complete working /// with functioning profile and matching monitor for <$15 at a radio rally. Apple ///s on ebay have seen up to $200 and more and that's without the hard drive. A few years back, i gave a broken one to a friend who subsequently ebayed it and got $60 for it! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 14 15:37:41 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Nov 14, 2000 09:32:22 AM Message-ID: <200011142137.NAA22148@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Claude asked (of a Sun Sparc2) > >> It will run Linux right? > > Zane added: > >It looks like it, plus it should run SunOS, Solaris, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. > > Cool table of SPEC(int,fp), Zane. Thanks! Where's this from? I've got a specific DejaNews post bookmarked, I find it easier to deal with than the Spec site. Here are links to both (watch out for line wrapping): http://x28.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=499362439&CONTEXT=932409494.407044111&hitnum=2 http://www.specbench.org/ > I believe NeXTStep/OpenStep will also run on those machines. My "dream > machine" would be a SS5/110, couple Gigs HD space, OpenStep 4.2/Dev, > Mathematica, Trinitron Monitor ... ... Odd that you should mention that. I was just thinking yesterday that it might be neat to get OpenStep 4.2 up and running on a HD for the SS10 I just got. I'm not sure what the hardware requirements are, but I think the Developer CD I've got has all four platforms on it. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 14 15:40:25 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? In-Reply-To: <3A11667E.CFFD97FF@cornell.edu> from "Carlos Murillo-Sanchez" at Nov 14, 2000 11:21:18 AM Message-ID: <200011142140.NAA22404@shell1.aracnet.com> > Hmm.. an HP 735/125 will also run NeXTStep, it is twice > as fast, much cheaper than the SS5, and nice monitors like > the 19" A2094A (trinitron) are cheap these days. I have both > an SS5 and a 735/125, and believe me, the speed difference > shows. Well, by the same standpoint a properly outfitted Pentium III will blow away either the SS5 or the HP 735/125. The Pentium III will run both NeXTstep/OPENSTEP and Solaris. I've got Solaris 7 on a Dual 400Mhz Celeron, it screams! Sometimes though the coolness factor of the hardware makes up for the speed :^) Zane From tarsi at binhost.com Tue Nov 14 16:07:29 2000 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Slashdot Recycling Article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001114160557.03b35eb0@binhost.com> Excellent article and discussion on Slashdot about computer recycling programs by IBM and other things. Check it out. http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/11/14/1717243&mode=nested Tarsi 210 From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Nov 14 16:11:25 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? In-Reply-To: <200011142140.NAA22404@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "Nov 14, 2000 01:40:25 pm" Message-ID: <200011142211.eAEMBQi01544@bg-tc-ppp253.monmouth.com> > > Hmm.. an HP 735/125 will also run NeXTStep, it is twice > > as fast, much cheaper than the SS5, and nice monitors like > > the 19" A2094A (trinitron) are cheap these days. I have both > > an SS5 and a 735/125, and believe me, the speed difference > > shows. > > Well, by the same standpoint a properly outfitted Pentium III will blow away > either the SS5 or the HP 735/125. The Pentium III will run both > NeXTstep/OPENSTEP and Solaris. I've got Solaris 7 on a Dual 400Mhz Celeron, > it screams! Sometimes though the coolness factor of the hardware makes up > for the speed :^) > > Zane Pentium III, hell the K6-2/450 here with Solaris 8 beat the UltraSparc10 (300MHZ)... (gcc compile and build of an object over NFS with the same server). Amazing that my home toy outperforms the work box. Both had IDE drives and 128mb memory. (Personally, I prefer FreeBSD on the K6... but that wasn't what I was testing in the benchmark)... Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Nov 14 16:14:58 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? References: <200011142140.NAA22404@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3A11B962.B5E44AC3@cornell.edu> healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > Hmm.. an HP 735/125 will also run NeXTStep, it is twice > > as fast, much cheaper than the SS5, and nice monitors like > > the 19" A2094A (trinitron) are cheap these days. I have both > > an SS5 and a 735/125, and believe me, the speed difference > > shows. > > Well, by the same standpoint a properly outfitted Pentium III will blow away > either the SS5 or the HP 735/125. The Pentium III will run both > NeXTstep/OPENSTEP and Solaris. I've got Solaris 7 on a Dual 400Mhz Celeron, > it screams! Sometimes though the coolness factor of the hardware makes up > for the speed :^) > > Zane I think that HP workstation hardware _is_ cool ;-). -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Nov 14 16:22:54 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Trying again. Help need with rescue. In-Reply-To: <39EA3B85.13288.E771AC@localhost> Message-ID: <3A1166DE.21594.1970053@localhost> I tried sending this earlier but I didn't see it show up in the list so I'm trying again. Sorry if you get it twice. ----------------- Help! Anyone in the Olympia Washington area or near there who can help me out. I have been talking with someone who has a LARGE collection of 8-bit systems, doc, and extras that he wants to get rid of. He has said it would take a large van and he wants someone to pick it all up and soon. He doesn't have a full inventory but has listed stuff from Apple, Commodore, OSI, various CP/M, TRS-80, Heath, TI and others. I'd like several of these systems and doc and extras but can't get up there to pick any of it up. If someone would like to help who can pick up and inventory things and would ship some of it to me I'd be happy to help cover costs, not just for the shipping but other costs you might have involved too. Extra stuff could be sent out to other members on the list too. He plans on trashing it soon unless I can find people to help out. Contact me direct if you can and want to help with this project. Hmm, I'm going to be in the Vancouver area for a few days, maybe I can arrange to get down into Washington. Thanks. ----------- ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 14 16:38:04 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? In-Reply-To: <200011142211.eAEMBQi01544@bg-tc-ppp253.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at Nov 14, 2000 05:11:25 PM Message-ID: <200011142238.OAA27491@shell1.aracnet.com> > Pentium III, hell the K6-2/450 here with Solaris 8 beat the > UltraSparc10 (300MHZ)... (gcc compile and build of an object over NFS with > the same server). > > Amazing that my home toy outperforms the work box. > > Both had IDE drives and 128mb memory. > (Personally, I prefer FreeBSD on the K6... but that wasn't what I was > testing in the benchmark)... > > Bill Now, you want the really scarry part? Price what it would cost you to get a nice SparcStation 20 (5 year old system) with say 1 SM71 CPU, 128MB RAM, 4GB HD, and 8-Bit graphics. Then price what you can get if you go buy *new* PC hardware that will run Solaris! Shoot, just price a nice SS20 on eBay then the PC hardware at your local shop, even that can be scarry! Zane From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 14 16:50:04 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Does anyone have... HP 95LX In-Reply-To: <200011121451.GAA09524@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001114164930.01d58ef0@pc> At 06:51 AM 11/12/00 -0800, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >You can pick up an HP 95LX on eBay pretty cheap, and those are excellent >palmtop PCs also. I know where I can pick up a couple for $40 or so. They seem to go for twice that on eBay. - John From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Nov 14 16:54:59 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? References: <200011142238.OAA27491@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3A11C2C3.6FFFAB6F@mainecoon.com> healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > > Pentium III, hell the K6-2/450 here with Solaris 8 beat the > > UltraSparc10 (300MHZ)... (gcc compile and build of an object over NFS with > > the same server). > > > > Amazing that my home toy outperforms the work box. > > > > Both had IDE drives and 128mb memory. > > (Personally, I prefer FreeBSD on the K6... but that wasn't what I was > > testing in the benchmark)... > > > > Bill > > Now, you want the really scarry part? Price what it would cost you to get a > nice SparcStation 20 (5 year old system) with say 1 SM71 CPU, 128MB RAM, 4GB > HD, and 8-Bit graphics. Then price what you can get if you go buy *new* PC > hardware that will run Solaris! Shoot, just price a nice SS20 on eBay then > the PC hardware at your local shop, even that can be scarry! Which is why we deploy generic x86 boxes (mostly Penguins as of late, since they're nice and inexpensive little rack mount boxes) running Sol 2.8 x86 rather than sparcs whenever we can. Oracle running on a single processor 700 MHz PIII is an amazing site to behold when compared to it running on a dual processor 420R -- even when the 420R has a gig more memory installed than the x86 machine. The only time we deploy sparcs these days is when there's some third-party piece hunk of code that doesn't run on some form of X86 unix. The price-performance is a complete no-brainer, and if the X86 box breaks I can find spares pretty much anywhere. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 14 17:01:52 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Trying again. Help need with rescue. In-Reply-To: <3A1166DE.21594.1970053@localhost> Message-ID: I live in Tacoma, which is just a bit north of Olympia. I've got the means and the will, but more importantly, the room. :) Email me privately and we'll get this moving. :) my email address is geneb@deltasoft.com - I can also be reached at 253-606-1697. g. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 14 17:47:19 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Intro and Nixies Message-ID: <003e01c04e95$865dc600$1e799a8d@ajp166> From: THETechnoid@home.com >Aren't the NIXIES you mention vaccume tubes with letters or numbers in >them? Used as displays WAY back when? > >Ed Kirby at Computer Parts Barn has a few of those he might sell. Nixies are not vacuum tubes they are filled with neon or neon/argon gasses for the characteristic neon orange glow. There were VF displays, those were litterally Vacuum tubes (valves) where the plate surfaces were phosphor coated and had a filiment and even a grid for control use. These were an offspring from the earlier magic Eye tubes (tuning eyes and bars). these were more appealing as the high voltages needed were in the 18-60 volt range at very low current and their structures also allowed for easy multiplexing into larger arrays. Allison From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Tue Nov 14 17:55:16 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Trying again. Help need with rescue. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Don't throw out the OSI equipment! I don't have the room to help with this but make sure the OSI stuff doesn't get tossed! George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, Gene Buckle wrote: > I live in Tacoma, which is just a bit north of Olympia. > > I've got the means and the will, but more importantly, the room. :) Email > me privately and we'll get this moving. :) > > > my email address is geneb@deltasoft.com - I can also be reached at > 253-606-1697. > > g. > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 14 17:53:46 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME Message-ID: <007801c04e97$a33435f0$1e799a8d@ajp166> >>Oh, there are a lot of them about. Of course it depends what you mean by >>'4 bit', but if that's the ALU/bus width, then the HP Saturn processor (used >>in the 71B, 28, 48, 49, etc, etc, etc) is a 4 bit chip. And I certainly like >>those machines (and yes, IMHO they are computers rather than calculators). > >I have no idea what you're on about. =) >Besides, a 4-bit address bus seems utterly, utterly limited. For most of those the data path was 4bits the address path was often 12 or more bits. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 14 18:23:21 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: address path width (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <007801c04e97$a33435f0$1e799a8d@ajp166> References: <007801c04e97$a33435f0$1e799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20001115002321.11806.qmail@brouhaha.com> >> Besides, a 4-bit address bus seems utterly, utterly limited. > For most of those the data path was 4bits the address path was often 12 > or more bits. Actually, for most of the calculators mentioned, the address path *is* 4 bits. And it's the same 4 bits as the data path. The Saturn sends the 20-bit address on five consecutive clock cycles. The nice thing is that they have two different data pointers in each device [*], and separate memory read and write commands that use them. So one data pointer can track the PC, and the CPU only has to output a new value to that data pointer over the bus when branching. Operand accesses use the other data pointer. Reads and writes using one data pointer have no effect on the other. The Saturn bus was designed back when it was considered impractical for compact plug-in modules for a handheld device to have much more than a dozen contacts. This replaced the earlier HP-41 bus, which operated in a bit serial fashion. In addition to a two-phase clock, there was a sync line to indicate the start of a 56-bit frame. The ISA line provided a 16-bit address from the CPU to the ROMS, and a 10-bit data value from the ROMs back to the CPU. (Other devices had to watch the data value as well.) RAM data transfers used a separate signal that generally transferred 56 bits in a frame. Going to a four-bit bus increased the available bandwidth considerably. And by only using a minimum of clock cycles for a transfer (rather than always 56 bits), they made much more efficient use of the bandwidth. Eric [*] Keeping address pointers in the memory and peripheral chips has a long history. The Intel 4004 and 4040, the Fairchild F8, and other processors have done this. IIRC, the F8 also used the dual data pointer concept. Whereas on the Saturn bus, neither data pointers is "special", with the F8 one of them is explicitly designated to be the program counter. From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 14 17:35:28 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: RM Nimbus In-Reply-To: <00Nov14.142055gmt.46095@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> Message-ID: <1593.354T1400T354757optimus@canit.se> Adrian Graham skrev: >>Date: 14 Nov 00 00:21:26 +0100 >>From: "Iggy Drougge" >>Subject: 80186 Nimbus >> >>On the subject of whether the Research Machines 80186 based computer was >>called PC1 or Nimbus, I managed to dig out an old issue of Practical >Computing >>(March 1985) where the machine is reviewed. >>It is actually called RM Nimbus, but is available in two models - PC1 and >PC2. >>Thus, both parties were right. >>It features 3.5" floppy drives, an 8910 three-voice sound chip (Is this the >>same as the YM2149?) as well as an Oki digitised voice chip, and has >dedicated >>graphics chips which are quite speedy. >I took some pix of mine last night but my ISP was acting up so I couldn't >upload 'em. Mine is RM Nimbus PC1 and it has 2 cart slots on the front as >well as a bundle of ports on the back including colour AND mono monitors, >keyboard, mouse, RJ11 printer connector, RJ11 'aux' or 'piconet' connector, >Ethernet connector (BNC) and 4 or 5 expansion slots, one of which carried >the IO board. I never thought I'd drool over an old PC... Mind you, are you certain that that BNC connector is Ethernet? I believe it is supposed to be a "Chain" or "MS-net". >Sound and voice you say? Hmmmm :) What OS did it run then? DOS or CP/M? More >importantly, has anyone got spare {whatever} disks? The review doesn't mention CP/M. I think you'd be able to access the sound hardware through RMBASIC. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Haben Sie schon mal einen Wegweiser gesehen, der selbst den Weg geht, den er weist? --- Ludwig XV (K?nig von Frankreich, 1710-1774) From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Nov 14 19:07:00 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? In-Reply-To: <200011142238.OAA27491@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "Nov 14, 2000 02:38:04 pm" Message-ID: <200011150107.eAF170q01914@bg-tc-ppp823.monmouth.com> > > Pentium III, hell the K6-2/450 here with Solaris 8 beat the > > UltraSparc10 (300MHZ)... (gcc compile and build of an object over NFS with > > the same server). > > > > Amazing that my home toy outperforms the work box. > > > > Both had IDE drives and 128mb memory. > > (Personally, I prefer FreeBSD on the K6... but that wasn't what I was > > testing in the benchmark)... > > > > Bill > > Now, you want the really scarry part? Price what it would cost you to get a > nice SparcStation 20 (5 year old system) with say 1 SM71 CPU, 128MB RAM, 4GB > HD, and 8-Bit graphics. Then price what you can get if you go buy *new* PC > hardware that will run Solaris! Shoot, just price a nice SS20 on eBay then > the PC hardware at your local shop, even that can be scarry! > > Zane Which is why all my Sparcs are dumpster dive refugees (Sparc2's some with Sparc-UP double clocking. A Sparc10's still a useful machine to me, since it runs Solaris 8 and can run FrameMaker... Unfortunately, Adobe stopped supporting Frame on x86 Unix in the 2.x timeframe and I'm stuck with (ugh) Win9x/NT/2k or my time limited Linux demos that run out this month... I've got a 420R at work -- and I think a multicpu PIII would put it to shame in the price/performance area. That's why I was deploying dual boot Linux/FreeBSD/Solaris8 and Win9x/NT boxes at work... The best of both worlds. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 14 19:46:29 2000 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Data General/MASK was Re: DG Nova 4 References: <20001108091814.A15552@stronghold.xs4all.nl> <00a901c04d9a$bbb7c860$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> <008401c04e58$9b696c80$05247452@dellhare> Message-ID: <046801c04ea5$e1a0dc40$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Ray" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 11:33 AM Subject: Re: Data General/MASK was Re: DG Nova 4 > G'day Mike - > > I'm not familiar with those serial number formats - The DG machine has a Socket 7 mother boards and will support upto a P233 MMX. It is a mini tower. Other than the DataGeneral plate on the front is looks like any PC clone. One of the MASKS has a PGA370 and will supports a Celeron 533 this has an unlnown motherboard with the SIS620 chip I was lead to believe that MASK produced machines for DG. > > I would need to know more to answer about the model numbers or physical > description to give you better answer... > > Bruce > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > In one of my last hauls I ended up with 3 machines from Mask > > Computers after they were purchased by REBEL.COM. > > > > Would any open here know anything about these machines? > > With the company no longer in business would they be worth > > holding onto? > > > > Data General Ser No. DG-YC399M1215001 > > > > MASK systems Ser no. MASK97-00275 > > > > MASK systems Ser. no. EVAL-0069 > > > From bills at adrenaline.com Tue Nov 14 19:55:22 2000 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Trying again. Help need with rescue. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't have the room to help with this but make sure the OSI stuff > doesn't get tossed! I'll take any and all. There are some particular bits I'll pay good money for. Please let me know what you get. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Nov 14 20:55:02 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? In-Reply-To: <200011142238.OAA27491@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 02:38:04PM -0800 References: <200011142211.eAEMBQi01544@bg-tc-ppp253.monmouth.com> <200011142238.OAA27491@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20001114205502.J2478@mrbill.net> On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 02:38:04PM -0800, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Price what it would cost you to get a > nice SparcStation 20 (5 year old system) with say 1 SM71 CPU, 128MB RAM, 4GB > HD, and 8-Bit graphics. I'd say $250ish. Seen em cheaper. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Nov 14 20:56:11 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? In-Reply-To: <200011150107.eAF170q01914@bg-tc-ppp823.monmouth.com>; from pechter@pechter.dyndns.org on Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 08:07:00PM -0500 References: <200011142238.OAA27491@shell1.aracnet.com> <200011150107.eAF170q01914@bg-tc-ppp823.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20001114205611.K2478@mrbill.net> On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 08:07:00PM -0500, Bill Pechter wrote: > I've got a 420R at work -- and I think a multicpu PIII would put it to > shame in the price/performance area. *until* you get into serious I/O. Thats when the SPARCs beat the pants off everything else. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 14 21:00:51 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: OT: _my_ PAL/NTSC question :-) In-Reply-To: <20001114105848.P2710@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> Message-ID: <2226.354T2550T2406391optimus@canit.se> Shawn T. Rutledge skrev: >On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 12:38:35AM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> I dare say that every VTR on the market now is dual-standard. Each and >> every one. Even my bottom-range Luma mono video bought last year supports >> NTSC playback. It won't play EP tapes, though, so I had to shell out for a >> stereo JVC later on, too. =/ >Yeah but do US VCRs do PAL... To the best of my knowledge, they certainly don't. >> However, these won't help in any way when you've got an NTSC signal which >> is not on a tape. OTOH, the more expensive TV sets now often have NTSC >> support. If you may obtain an RGB signal, thpough, that is always the way >> to go, since every TV made in the last decade and most TVs from the >> preceding one will support RGB. >If you're talking about the SCART connector, I've not seen any TVs or >VCRs here that have them. (Not that I've been going around the stores >looking for it though...) That's also a European thing. If I had a VCR >with RGB out, that'd be a lot better because I could hook it up to my >projector. (And I've been trying to get an NTSC decoder board for my RGB >switcher on ebay for months now; keep getting "sniped" at the last minute, >and forgetting to be there at the right time to do that myself.) I've never heard of a VTR with RGB. After all, video cassettes store their image in a much more compressed format than RGB. >I did get a DVD player with RGB out (that's a very rare feature here; >usually they have YCbCr instead.) It's a lousy player in most other >ways but at least I get the full resolution on my projector. It doesn't >have a SCART connector either; separate RCA plugs for the three signals. That's quaint. Of course, seeing as Japan is much like North America WRT TV standards, a lot of DVD players here don't have RGB either. Of course, it is doubtful whether the DVD image would look any good without the blurring of composite. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the universe is winning. -- Rick Cook, Mission Manager, NASA Mars Pathfinder Project From claudew at sprint.ca Tue Nov 14 22:12:23 2000 From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: VAX 8350/parts available in Montreal (free - just shipping)... Message-ID: <002801c04eba$41ae4f00$2b00a8c0@Gamer_Claude.HOME> Hi I have been invited to look around someones basement to pick up whatever old computer stuff I want. I was told there is a fully functionnal VAX 8350 there and other stuff...the unit will be scrapped. If anybody wants any VAX 8350 parts from this one that can be shipped from Montreal, Canada, I can take it (them) out and get it (them) shipped (you pay shipping of course...) I don't collect VAX stuff... The VAX will probably go to scrap. I was the only person (slightly) interested but I have no space... Anything to add to my collection of vintage "home" pcs (non ibm arch.) from the 70-80 early 90's will be greatly appreciated to thank me for this service...not essential - but would be so nice of you... I will be going there in a few days, the unit will be scrapped soon. email me. Claude -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001114/d0b7648c/attachment.html From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Nov 14 22:03:04 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? In-Reply-To: <20001114205611.K2478@mrbill.net> from Bill Bradford at "Nov 14, 2000 08:56:11 pm" Message-ID: <200011150403.UAA15925@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 08:07:00PM -0500, Bill Pechter wrote: > > I've got a 420R at work -- and I think a multicpu PIII would put it to > > shame in the price/performance area. > > *until* you get into serious I/O. Thats when the SPARCs beat the pants > off everything else. How many PCI busses does the average multicpu PIII server have? We manage to push quite a few bits through the 6 PCI busses of our Enterprise 450s. (Actually we're only using 3 right now with a 3 channel SCSI RAID card on each. It doesn't take much to saturate a PCI bus.) Then again we have the advantage of having gotten our 450 machines free. :) Eric From rdd at smart.net Tue Nov 14 22:16:53 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? In-Reply-To: <200011150107.eAF170q01914@bg-tc-ppp823.monmouth.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, Bill Pechter wrote: > Which is why all my Sparcs are dumpster dive refugees (Sparc2's some > with Sparc-UP double clocking. A Sparc10's still a useful machine to > me, since it runs Solaris 8 and can run FrameMaker... For me, a Sun 4/110 is still a useful fileserver; that's about all it's used for, but, four shoeboxes with 5-1/4" drives spinning is rather nice, and will do until I can get (and get space for!) a disk farm of 14" Fujitsu Super Eagles, or even 9" CDC drives attached to a largish mini. :-) ...that reminds me, I've got to get my 9" CDC drive out of the living room and attached to one of my PDP-11s. > That's why I was deploying dual boot Linux/FreeBSD/Solaris8 and Win9x/NT > boxes at work... The best of both worlds. Sounds good except for the Windoze software... maybe you could replace that with OpenBSD to add some system security ... or replace LuzedozeNT with TSX-32. (donning asbestos suit and ducking! :-) -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 14 22:20:56 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? In-Reply-To: <20001114205611.K2478@mrbill.net> from "Bill Bradford" at Nov 14, 2000 08:56:11 PM Message-ID: <200011150420.UAA21102@shell1.aracnet.com> Bill Bradford wrote: > On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 08:07:00PM -0500, Bill Pechter wrote: > > I've got a 420R at work -- and I think a multicpu PIII would put it to > > shame in the price/performance area. > > *until* you get into serious I/O. Thats when the SPARCs beat the pants > off everything else. Nope, when you get into *serious* I/O you switch to either IBM or HP. We've found that we're having to move off of Sparc's because of I/O bottlenecks. Guess that's what happens when you're shifting Terabytes of data though.... Zane From rjzambo at attglobal.net Tue Nov 14 22:36:56 2000 From: rjzambo at attglobal.net (rjzambo@attglobal.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: VAX 8350/parts available in Montreal (free - just shipping)... References: <002801c04eba$41ae4f00$2b00a8c0@Gamer_Claude.HOME> Message-ID: <3A1212E8.A5AEEEDA@attglobal.net> Claude I live in Montreal and also collect old computers. What do you need in return have Lisa's parts off,old Mac's ,MB's ,altairs,boards ,Imsai etc cheers "Claude.W" wrote: > Hi I have been invited to look around someones basement to pick up > whatever old computer stuff I want. I was told there is a fully > functionnal VAX 8350 there and other stuff...the unit will be > scrapped. If anybody wants any VAX 8350 parts from this one that can > be shipped from Montreal, Canada, I can take it (them) out and get it > (them) shipped (you pay shipping of course...) I don't collect VAX > stuff... The VAX will probably go to scrap. I was the only person > (slightly) interested but I have no space... Anything to add to my > collection of vintage "home" pcs (non ibm arch.) from the 70-80 early > 90's will be greatly appreciated to thank me for this service...not > essential - but would be so nice of you... I will be going there in a > few days, the unit will be scrapped soon. email me. Claude -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001114/33be74b3/attachment.html From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Nov 14 22:55:23 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Trying again. Help need with rescue. Message-ID: <3A11C2DB.13067.26595B@localhost> I don't want to throw out any of it. I'd love some OSI stuff. The person offering it up wants people who would preserve it and I told him there were plenty on the list. I've had some people respond about helping pick up and I'm trying to arrange things. When I learn more and if/when we have stuff that people on the list might want I'll post. Thanks to everyone that replied. On a side note, I just received around 400 pounds of TI and Amiga hardware, software and doc. Most of that weight is due to a large collection of TI and Amiga magazines. Now I just have to sort through all of it and make an inventory. It seems everything comes in cycles. It's been slow until recently. :) On 14 Nov 2000, at 15:55, George Rachor wrote: > Don't throw out the OSI equipment! > > I don't have the room to help with this but make sure the OSI stuff > doesn't get tossed! > > George Rachor ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From rjzambo at attglobal.net Tue Nov 14 22:43:06 2000 From: rjzambo at attglobal.net (rjzambo@attglobal.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: VAX 8350/parts available in Montreal (free - just shipping)... References: <002801c04eba$41ae4f00$2b00a8c0@Gamer_Claude.HOME> Message-ID: <3A12145A.7347459A@attglobal.net> Claude How big is the unit ? cheers "Claude.W" wrote: > Hi I have been invited to look around someones basement to pick up > whatever old computer stuff I want. I was told there is a fully > functionnal VAX 8350 there and other stuff...the unit will be > scrapped. If anybody wants any VAX 8350 parts from this one that can > be shipped from Montreal, Canada, I can take it (them) out and get it > (them) shipped (you pay shipping of course...) I don't collect VAX > stuff... The VAX will probably go to scrap. I was the only person > (slightly) interested but I have no space... Anything to add to my > collection of vintage "home" pcs (non ibm arch.) from the 70-80 early > 90's will be greatly appreciated to thank me for this service...not > essential - but would be so nice of you... I will be going there in a > few days, the unit will be scrapped soon. email me. Claude -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001114/33711743/attachment.html From rdd at smart.net Tue Nov 14 23:05:40 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:48 2005 Subject: Computer purchasing lesson and drooling (was: RM Nimbus) In-Reply-To: <1593.354T1400T354757optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 15 Nov 2000, Iggy Drougge wrote: > I never thought I'd drool over an old PC... Me neither... but now, since you've admitted to that, I'll admit that I once drooled over an IBM PC-AT (stopped drooling when I added one to my collection a couple of years ago). Back around 1985, still in college, I used (wasted?) some savings to purchase a genuine IBM PC-XT, with a 10 MB (ST-513, IIRC) hard drive, monochrome (not even Hercules) display and 256K of RAM and no math co-processer (I added one later so that I could install FORTRAN software)... US$2,895, from Computerland (can you say "con artists" and "clueless computer buyer"?) ... and regretted that I hadn't spent a little more and gotten an AT which was a more impressive looking machine... only afterwards, when I wanted to play with multitasking and began experimenting with things like C-task, VMiX, Wendin-DOS, Modula-2 coroutines, etc. did I discover that these weren't really useful computers. :-( Interestingly, that PC-XT cost about US$2,000 more than I'd paid for my car a few years earlier, but I'm still driving that car daily (why waste money on a new car?), and that PC-XT is now rarely used. There's a valuable lesson to be learnt from this: never spend much more money on a computer than you'd spend to purchase a 10 year old car, and never spend more money on a car than the average personal computer costs. -RDD -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Tue Nov 14 23:21:43 2000 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Data General/MASK was Re: DG Nova 4 References: <20001108091814.A15552@stronghold.xs4all.nl> <00a901c04d9a$bbb7c860$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> <008401c04e58$9b696c80$05247452@dellhare> <046801c04ea5$e1a0dc40$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <022701c04ec3$f2af5520$05247452@dellhare> Okay, it's one of "DG's" Personal Computers (that they bought from several different vendors, including Intel directly). Sorry, I (and others around here) don't consider those DG machines since they are simply OEM versions of systems available through other channels. Ooooops. Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Kenzie" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 6:46 PM Subject: Re: Data General/MASK was Re: DG Nova 4 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce Ray" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 11:33 AM > Subject: Re: Data General/MASK was Re: DG Nova 4 > > > > G'day Mike - > > > > I'm not familiar with those serial number formats - > > The DG machine has a Socket 7 mother boards and will support > upto a P233 MMX. > It is a mini tower. Other than the DataGeneral plate on the > front is looks like any PC clone. > > One of the MASKS has a PGA370 and will supports a Celeron > 533 this has an unlnown motherboard with the SIS620 chip > > I was lead to believe that MASK produced machines for DG. > > > > > I would need to know more to answer about the model > numbers or physical > > description to give you better answer... > > > > Bruce > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > In one of my last hauls I ended up with 3 machines from > Mask > > > Computers after they were purchased by REBEL.COM. > > > > > > Would any open here know anything about these machines? > > > With the company no longer in business would they be > worth > > > holding onto? > > > > > > Data General Ser No. DG-YC399M1215001 > > > > > > MASK systems Ser no. MASK97-00275 > > > > > > MASK systems Ser. no. EVAL-0069 > > > > > From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Nov 14 23:46:59 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Computer purchasing lesson and drooling (was: RM Nimbus) In-Reply-To: ; from rdd@smart.net on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 12:05:40AM -0500 References: <1593.354T1400T354757optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20001114224659.A27012@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 12:05:40AM -0500, R. D. Davis wrote: > Me neither... but now, since you've admitted to that, I'll admit that > I once drooled over an IBM PC-AT (stopped drooling when I added one to > my collection a couple of years ago). Back around 1985, still in > college, I used (wasted?) some savings to purchase a genuine IBM > PC-XT, with a 10 MB (ST-513, IIRC) hard drive, monochrome (not even > Hercules) display and 256K of RAM and no math co-processer (I added > one later so that I could install FORTRAN software)... US$2,895, from Hmmm. My first XT clone in early 1988 (or was it late 87?) was only $600-something. But 3 years makes a huge difference, and I had no hard drive (but 10 MHz CPU, whoo-hoo!) Back then you could easily spend $5000 for a professional-grade system right? And now that's hard to do unless you really load up on peripherals too. What was the entry price for an AT in 1985? I wasn't sure they existed yet at that point. I agree there's no point in getting the very best, because it depreciates faster. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420 From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Nov 15 00:44:43 2000 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia In-Reply-To: <20001114224659.A27012@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> Message-ID: 1977: My first 'PC' was a KIM-1, which now resides in the Santa Barbara Fortress of Schloss Marvin. 1979: I then assembled a Z80/48K/Pertec Floppy/four serial port Cromemco Z2H over a period of about one year, but I don't think that it fits the subject due to it's 'mongrel' nature. 1983: My first "pc" PC was a borrowed Kaypro II, then a 10, that I bought used on a sales promotion scheme for $1400.00 in 1984... my disposible income at that time for about 8 months. The store I worked at (as the Fixit Geek) 'carried the paper'for me, so I suffered only 8 months of chronic malnutrition. Better than starving outright. 1985: I bought a used Columbia Data Products portable XT, and to this day I remember it quite fondly, operation was good (for it's day) and aesthetically it was most pleasing. The keyboard was firm and quick and the display was super-sharp, and the packaging was more like test gear than a computer. Then came a succession of ever-increasing PC Stuff, none of which is germaine to the Topic. Then of course the PDP Preservation Virus invaded, and my house became a Refuge for Old Iron. Cheerz John From enrico.badella at softstar.it Wed Nov 15 01:43:52 2000 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: NextStep/OpenStep on PC? References: <200011142211.eAEMBQi01544@bg-tc-ppp253.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3A123EB8.18A5291D@softstar.it> > > Well, by the same standpoint a properly outfitted Pentium III will blow away > > either the SS5 or the HP 735/125. The Pentium III will run both > > NeXTstep/OPENSTEP and Solaris. I've got Solaris 7 on a Dual 400Mhz Celeron, Now this is interesting. Where can you get it? Last I remember xStep was purchase by Sun when Next folded , wasn't it? e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Nov 15 02:03:04 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Tracking history of old iron Message-ID: <20001115020304.Y2478@mrbill.net> Anybody know of someone/somebody/department I can contact at DEC to possibly find out the original buyer and/or configuration of a VAX 6000 that I have? serial numbers/model info: http://www.decvax.org/vax6000/images1/vax11.jpg I'm also looking for a front-panel key for it. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Nov 15 02:08:04 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Free HDs (Austin, TX) Message-ID: <20001115020804.Z2478@mrbill.net> I've got a bunch of 5.25" full-heigh 2.1gig Seagate differential SCSI hard drives (along with the 19" drive trays, qty. 3, and rack slide rails the trays go on) free for pickup in north Austin. I need to get the space back, so they're free to anyone who would like to come pick them up. I also have the card cage/backplane/blower assembly from a Sun 4/690MP, four 4/xxx deskside chassis (some with 4/330 motherboards and RAM - just need HDs), six power supplies for a 4/690MP, and various other things (couple boxes of PC misc. parts, motherboards, etc). Free to anybody who gives me a holler and wants to come pick it up; I need the space back. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 15 02:37:28 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: NextStep/OpenStep on PC? In-Reply-To: NextStep/OpenStep on PC? (Enrico Badella) References: <200011142211.eAEMBQi01544@bg-tc-ppp253.monmouth.com> <3A123EB8.18A5291D@softstar.it> Message-ID: <14866.19272.334972.799278@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 15, Enrico Badella wrote: > Now this is interesting. Where can you get it? Last I remember xStep was > purchase by Sun when Next folded , wasn't it? Uhh, NeXT folded? No, they were bought by Apple...now we have NeXTSTEP on our PowerPC machines, with Apple copyright notices. Woohoo. -Dave McGuire From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Nov 15 03:07:36 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME In-Reply-To: "Iggy Drougge" "Re: Welcome and VME" (Nov 14, 0:30) References: <1376.353T700T304213optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <10011150907.ZM896@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 14, 0:30, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Tony Duell skrev: > >26 bits? I can't think of a machine with a 26 bit data path. I believe > >some ARMs have a 26 bit address bus, but that's hardly a 26 bit machine. > >Now 24 bit machines can be interesting... > > Oh no? Finding an ARM-based machine around here is about as easy as finding a > live condor in the northern hemisphere. > What feature about the older ARM processors is 26 bit? As Tony said, the address bus is 26-bit, as is the program counter (the remaining 6 bits are used for processor flags). The data registers are 32-bit, of course. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed Nov 15 08:52:46 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: New IIci Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E3438@MAIL10> Hello, all: Yesterday, I received my first modern Mac, a IIci. It comes with 8mb of RAM an Apple TokenRing card and the Workstation Display card (Apple# 630-4179). The monitor is the 12" hi-rez monitor. It runs System 7.0.1. I have a few random questions... The workstation display card has a 13W3 connector on it. I understand that if you use an external display adapter, you can reclaim some system RAM by disabling the built-in video. Is this true? If so, How can I connect the 13W3 to the Hi-Rez monitor which has a DB15 connector? I looked in some catalogs, but there doesn't seem to be an adapter made for this. The TokenRing card is useless to me, so it's up for trade. I installed an Asante ethernet card, but I still have to install the driver for the card, which I downloaded to my PC. I'm going to use TransMac or workalike to transfer to 1.4m diskette. What is the best internet browser for this configuration? I have a cable modem connection, so dial-up is no issue. Like I said, it has 8mb of RAM. I have a few random 30-pin PC SIMMs laying around. Can I typically use these? What should I watch for? The ci also has an X-eyes-like application that shows-up on the menu bar. I looked in the usual places for where this could be installed, but I can't seem to find the file. There's also no configuration menu to disable it. If I can't find it, no big deal, but I'd like to disable it if I can. Again, the token ring card is up for trade. If anyone's interested, contact me off-line. Thanks again. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From THETechnoid at home.com Wed Nov 15 09:40:56 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: New IIci In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E3438@MAIL10> Message-ID: <20001115153155.KEXW19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> In <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E3438@MAIL10>, on 11/15/00 at 10:40 AM, "Cini, Richard" said: > What is the best internet browser for this configuration? I have a cable >modem connection, so dial-up is no issue. Netscape should run just fine. > Like I said, it has 8mb of RAM. I have a few random 30-pin PC SIMMs >laying around. Can I typically use these? What should I watch for? I think you need true-parity simms for that. > The ci also has an X-eyes-like application that shows-up on the menu >bar. I looked in the usual places for where this could be installed, but >I can't seem to find the file. There's also no configuration menu to >disable it. If I can't find it, no big deal, but I'd like to disable it >if I can. > Again, the token ring card is up for trade. If anyone's interested, >contact me off-line. Thanks again. >Rich >========================== >Richard A. Cini, Jr. >Congress Financial Corporation >1133 Avenue of the Americas >30th Floor >New York, NY 10036 >(212) 545-4402 >(212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com Wed Nov 15 10:01:52 2000 From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: New IIci In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E3438@MAIL10> References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E3438@MAIL10> Message-ID: <00111510042105.00196@Billbob_linux> Hello, > The ci also has an X-eyes-like application that shows-up on the menu > bar. I looked in the usual places for where this could be installed, but I > can't seem to find the file. There's also no configuration menu to disable > it. If I can't find it, no big deal, but I'd like to disable it if I can. Stuff running in the menubar is _normally_ located in either the System/Extensions or System/Control panels folder.You can also look under Startup Items in the Apple Menu. If you can't get rid of it, just do a clean install - 7.0.1 is a free download from Apple. -- Bill Layer Sales Technician +----------------------------------+ Viking Electronics, Inc. 1531 Industrial St. Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A 715.386.8861 ext. 210 +----------------------------------+ "Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century" Powered by Slackware Linux 7.1.0 From THETechnoid at home.com Wed Nov 15 10:22:38 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: OT? HP Scanjet IIC In-Reply-To: <20001115153155.KEXW19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <20001115161543.LOXA19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> This weekend I picked up an HP Scanjet IIc scsi scanner. It appears to work but I haven't installed it on anything as yet. Research on the web reveals this scanner to be one marketed solely for Macintosh computers. Another, the IIcx was marketed for PC's. Will the HP software for the IIcx work with the IIc? I run OS/2 on my PC, have a Vaxstation, and a Sparcstation. One of these three ought to run the scanner no? Thanks, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Nov 15 10:37:54 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 1979: Several of us went to Montana to see the solar eclipse in February. A friend's father brought his brand new TRS-80 (Model I, Level I, 4K). We didn't get much sleep. 1980: The first machine I owned was a Heathkit 6800 processor trainer. Not the fancy one that was expandable to include BASIC and disks, but a short-lived low-end version with half the memory in a cardboard box. It's good thing it worked the first time; I probably couldn't have fixed it. I still have it, it still works. Also about this time I started doing data entry for an accounting firm running on a Burroughs B800. I eventually managed to scrounge a full-screen editor and a COBOL compiler. The high school got a good deal on Commodore PETs (buy 5 get 1 free, IIRC), so there were a bunch of them around. The chess club had a TRS-80 Model I, which eventually sprouted Level II BASIC, an expansion module, and diskette drives. 1981: Did some futzing about with a Billings microcomputer owned by a company for which a friend work. It was my first encounter with CP/M. Went to college, where the main student machines were a Burroughs B6800 and a VAX 11/780. Started using the university's homebrew 8" CP/M machines. Taught BASIC programming labs for EE; this was timeshared on a pair of PDP-8s (one /e and one /m; one had core and one didn't. You could tell which was which in the spring and fall when the thunderstorms roared through). 1982: Started working for Dept. of Climatology using the VAX and some of the university's homebrew 8" CP/M machines. I first encountered an Osborne I here. Also did some work with the Apple II in here. 1983: Someone asked me to translate a FORTRAN model to run on his brand new TRS-80 Model 16. The only programming language available for the Model 16 at the time was COBOL. Fortunately, summer intervened before I got too far along. Spent the summer in California at the Naval Weapons Center. Here's where I met the PDP-11 and did some work with the DG Eclipse (which ran rings around the VAX-11/780 for certain small jobs). Started writing VMS device drivers. Encountered the VAX-11/730; heard rumors about MicroVAX I. 1984: Back from summer job, got hired on to do VMS work. The company did lots of stuff for DEC , so lots more PDP-11 and VAX work. They also had lost of CP/M machines: a couple of DigiLogs, some Televideo TS-802s, and some TS-803s. About this time I bought my first 'pc' PC, a surplus 8" CP/M machine from the university. I now have several of them. A few years later I put together an 11/03 from spare parts hanging around at work. Eventually it dawned on me that the PDP-8 was an elegant architecture and I picked up a surplus PDP-8/e from the university. About 1990 or so I picked up a surplus PDP-11/34 from Evans & Sutherland. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Nov 15 10:46:51 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: New IIci In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E3438@MAIL10>; from RCini@congressfinancial.com on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 09:52:46AM -0500 References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E3438@MAIL10> Message-ID: <20001115094650.B27012@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 09:52:46AM -0500, Cini, Richard wrote: > The workstation display card has a 13W3 connector on it. I > understand that if you use an external display adapter, you can reclaim some > system RAM by disabling the built-in video. Is this true? If so, How can I Hmmm, maybe, if they used some system RAM as VRAM. I'm not sure how to do that. > connect the 13W3 to the Hi-Rez monitor which has a DB15 connector? I looked > in some catalogs, but there doesn't seem to be an adapter made for this. Sure, those adapters exist; but I doubt a 12" monitor can do 1280x1024 (guessing that's what mode the card will be capable of, because 13W3 is for Sun monitors and that's their usual resolution). I had to get an adapter like that to use a PC monitor with a Sun. Fry's has them but you can get much better deals on ebay. Just search for 13W3 and then read the description to see which direction it goes (because most people want to hook a Sun monitor to a PC rather than the other way around). I might be interested in this video card, if you don't plan to use it with a workstation monitor. > > The TokenRing card is useless to me, so it's up for trade. I > installed an Asante ethernet card, but I still have to install the driver > for the card, which I downloaded to my PC. I'm going to use TransMac or > workalike to transfer to 1.4m diskette. The Mac might be able to read DOS-formatted disks. > > What is the best internet browser for this configuration? I have a > cable modem connection, so dial-up is no issue. Netscape or IE will run, but be slow. My IIci has a Daystar 50MHz 030 upgrade, and it still is slow enough to be uncomfortable. I don't know if there is a version of Opera for 68K machines; if so you might want to try it. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420 From agraham at ccat.co.uk Wed Nov 15 10:59:56 2000 From: agraham at ccat.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: RM Nimbus & Apple /// Message-ID: <00Nov15.165958gmt.46097@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> Iggy wrote: >I never thought I'd drool over an old PC... >Mind you, are you certain that that BNC connector is Ethernet? I believe it is >supposed to be a "Chain" or "MS-net". Could be - all it actually says is 'network'. As for the /// stuff - thanks all; this means I've got to lower my claim just a tad! Mind, if I have to get one from the US it'll cost exactly one arm and one leg in shipping alone :o) adrian www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Online Computer Museum From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Nov 15 10:55:49 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: OT? HP Scanjet IIC In-Reply-To: <20001115161543.LOXA19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>; from THETechnoid@home.com on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 11:22:38AM -0500 References: <20001115153155.KEXW19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> <20001115161543.LOXA19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <20001115095549.C27012@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 11:22:38AM -0500, THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > This weekend I picked up an HP Scanjet IIc scsi scanner. It appears to > work but I haven't installed it on anything as yet. > > Research on the web reveals this scanner to be one marketed solely for > Macintosh computers. Another, the IIcx was marketed for PC's. Will the HP > software for the IIcx work with the IIc? I thought the IIc just had lower-end specs (like lower resolution, smaller scan area, or something like that). If it's SCSI then there is probably no harm in trying IIcx software. I think the HP scanner protocol is somewhat similar across all their scanners. > > I run OS/2 on my PC, have a Vaxstation, and a Sparcstation. One of these > three ought to run the scanner no? Yep. SANE on the Sparc would work for sure. I imagine there should have been an OS/2 driver too. I have a IIcx, and use SANE on Linux. But it seems to have bad color quality compared to when I first got it; I've been wondering if the lamp is getting dim, and if it can be replaced. There is almost no point in scanning color photos because they look so muddy, but it still works well enough for black and white documents. I also have a document feeder for a ScanJet Plus (I think); it has a different connector than the feeder for the IIcx. I found it at a thrift store. So if anybody here needs one it's available; and I eventually want to get either the feeder for the IIcx or another scanner with a document feeder. It will be a lot easier to scan manuals and such that way. (Maybe by the time I finally find a feeder, there will finally be decent Linux OCR software... I sure hope so.) -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420 From dogas at bellsouth.net Wed Nov 15 10:57:21 2000 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia References: Message-ID: <01f601c04f25$1fa3b2e0$5d794ed8@DOMAIN> From: Roger Ivie 1980: The first machine I owned was a Heathkit 6800 processor > trainer. Not the fancy one that was expandable to include BASIC > and disks, but a short-lived low-end version with half the memory > in a cardboard box. It's good thing it worked the first time; I > probably couldn't have fixed it. I still have it, it still works. I have one of those. the ET-6800 and docs (serial #8) ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From THETechnoid at home.com Wed Nov 15 11:13:23 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: OT? HP Scanjet IIC In-Reply-To: <20001115095549.C27012@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> Message-ID: <20001115170659.NJCM19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> In <20001115095549.C27012@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com>, on 11/15/00 at 12:13 PM, "Shawn T. Rutledge" said: I think OS/2 is my best bet right now. The Sparcstation I have won't run any version of Solaris above the 2.4 it's got on it now. This makes getting binaries difficult. >I thought the IIc just had lower-end specs (like lower resolution, >smaller scan area, or something like that). If it's SCSI then there is >probably no harm in trying IIcx software. I think the HP scanner >protocol is somewhat similar across all their scanners. > >> I run OS/2 on my PC, have a Vaxstation, and a Sparcstation. One of these >> three ought to run the scanner no? >Yep. SANE on the Sparc would work for sure. I imagine there should have >been an OS/2 driver too. There is a freeware scanning system for OS/2 in addition to some commercial packages. I'm in the middle of making the Unix port of CDRECORD working with my Atapi drive under Warp. Once that is done I'll get the scanner going. This one does legal-sized sheets which should make scanning certain docs easier than with my wife's USB scanner. Thanks for the info! v/r Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From THETechnoid at home.com Wed Nov 15 11:22:47 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Unzip (VMS Vax) Wazzup? In-Reply-To: <00Nov15.165958gmt.46097@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> Message-ID: <20001115171605.NRDH19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> I can't get unzip to execute properly and the examples in the help files and dialog on DejaNews have not helped. $ run unzip Gets me the unzip help screen. $run unzip filename.zip Gets me an error: %DCL-W-MAXPARM, too many parameters - reenter command with fewer parameters. Well, am I stupid or is something wrong? The versions are : Openvms 7.2b, and Unzip v5.20 Thanks, Jeff I'm gonna try and make SAMBA work on this machine ;-) Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From dogas at bellsouth.net Wed Nov 15 11:09:50 2000 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia References: Message-ID: <022401c04f26$de9d3490$5d794ed8@DOMAIN> and ??? From: Roger Ivie > trainer. Not the fancy one that was expandable to include BASIC > and disks ??? The et-3400 could be expanded with an eta-3400 and get you tiny basic in the process too, but disks??? how? where??? heh... ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Nov 15 11:28:22 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: OT? HP Scanjet IIC In-Reply-To: <20001115170659.NJCM19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>; from THETechnoid@home.com on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 12:13:23PM -0500 References: <20001115095549.C27012@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> <20001115170659.NJCM19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <20001115102822.D27012@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 12:13:23PM -0500, THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > I think OS/2 is my best bet right now. The Sparcstation I have won't run > any version of Solaris above the 2.4 it's got on it now. This makes > getting binaries difficult. Well I assumed you'd compile it. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420 From vcf at siconic.com Wed Nov 15 10:37:37 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Panasonic Sr. Partner needs a new home Message-ID: The Panasonic Sr. Partner is an MS-DOS compatible luggable with a built in printer and and display. Please contact this person directly if you are interested. Reply-to: mlrplast@htc.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:17:14 -0600 From: CM Subject: possible donation I have a Panasonic Senior partner. It was a gift from my sister, who got it from a friend. Since I don't know about 'dos', etc. and can barely use my 'new' computer and being at a total loss as to how to use this thing, I am considering donating it to a good cause. I "asked Jeeves" about obsolete computers and eventually found your site. I would rather NOT have to pay to ship this thing. Is there anyone in the St. Louis, MO area who might be interested in it? Just checking. It works fine and has considerable software with it. Thanks, C. Miller Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Wed Nov 15 11:43:55 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Unzip (VMS Vax) Wazzup? In-Reply-To: <20001115171605.NRDH19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>; from THETechnoid@home.com on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 12:22:47PM -0500 References: <00Nov15.165958gmt.46097@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> <20001115171605.NRDH19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <20001115124355.E12051@alcor.concordia.ca> On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 12:22:47PM -0500, THETechnoid@home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) wrote: > I can't get unzip to execute properly and the examples in the help files > and dialog on DejaNews have not helped. > > $ run unzip > > Gets me the unzip help screen. > > $run unzip filename.zip > > Gets me an error: > > %DCL-W-MAXPARM, too many parameters - reenter command with fewer > parameters. > > Well, am I stupid or is something wrong? 'run' doesn't allow arguments. Define a symbol: $ unzip :== $path:[to]program_name $ unzip foo.zip You may not need the path. That's explained in the ':=' entry in HELP, which you can't access directly from the commandline, but you can from the HELP table of contents. You might find the VMS Beginner's FAQ useful; I've got an HTML'd version up at . Cheers, -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From transit at lerctr.org Wed Nov 15 11:48:14 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://www.lerctr.org/~transit/bc/comp.html From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Nov 15 11:51:47 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Unzip (VMS Vax) Wazzup? In-Reply-To: <20001115171605.NRDH19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a>; from THETechnoid@home.com on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 12:22:47PM -0500 References: <00Nov15.165958gmt.46097@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> <20001115171605.NRDH19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <20001115095147.A1316@loomcom.com> On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 12:22:47PM -0500, THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > I can't get unzip to execute properly and the examples in the help files > and dialog on DejaNews have not helped. > > $ run unzip > > Gets me the unzip help screen. > > $run unzip filename.zip > > Gets me an error: > > %DCL-W-MAXPARM, too many parameters - reenter command with fewer > parameters. Aha, you just have to register a DCL command for UNZIP. Do this first: $ UNZIP :== DISK:[PATH.TO.UNZIP]UNZIP.EXE (replace DISK and PATH.TO.UNZIP as appropriate, of course!) Then you can just type: $ UNZIP filename.zip and it works, as if by magic. -Seth From r.stek at snet.net Wed Nov 15 12:05:16 2000 From: r.stek at snet.net (Robert Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: trying again. Help need with rescue. Message-ID: Can't help directly as I'm in CT. But I can help defray expenses and pay shipping on orphaned items of interest to me! Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From kla at helios.augustana.edu Wed Nov 15 12:35:02 2000 From: kla at helios.augustana.edu (Kevin L. Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: e-Nauseated (off-topic a tad) Message-ID: e-Is e-it e-just e-me, e-or e-has e-the e-world e-added "e-" e-to e-all e-words? e-I e-can't e-seem e-to e-read e-a e-magazine e-without e-seeing e-words e-everywhere e-or e-hearing e-them e-on e-television e-or e-radio. Seriously, it seems that every word is now becoming an e-version of itself in this new e-commerce world. I personally find it e-nauseating for several reasons, none of which, e-politely, I will e-describe here. Dictionaries will now need to be twice as big, for every word and its e-word. Maybe, since DEC no longer exists (well sorta in Compaq), we can create an e-DEC company, and those of us who use software simulators for these non-existent computers are really using e-computers. End of my e-lunch -- time to go back to my e-work. Cheers/TTFN. Kevin Anderson North Dakota (or is that e-Kevin in e-North Dakota, since none of you have seem me personally -- maybe I don't exist and am just an e-person?.....) home: K9IUA@juno.com alt: kla@helios.augustana.edu From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Nov 15 12:42:50 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: OT: _my_ PAL/NTSC question :-) In-Reply-To: <20001114105848.P2710@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> References: <1539.353T1750T384891optimus@canit.se>; from optimus@canit.se on Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 12:38:35AM +0100 Message-ID: <3A12E73A.17078.15EA9C87@localhost> > On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 12:38:35AM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > I dare say that every VTR on the market now is dual-standard. Each and every > > one. Even my bottom-range Luma mono video bought last year supports NTSC > > playback. It won't play EP tapes, though, so I had to shell out for a stereo > > JVC later on, too. =/ > Yeah but do US VCRs do PAL... Do you belive that there's room for two (or even more) different designs anymore ? I doubt that - this busines is driven by high volume low margin rules. Less variations means less cost - open any given low price VCR and just count - everything is highly integrated, and when you check the data sheets (if available) you'll find that all used chips are system independant or multiple standard. And since even digital filters are becoming standard, even less discrete components are added - and these are have been the last domain of differences. A VCR is often available for less than 200 Mark (less than 85 USD including all taxes) - if you subtract taxes, store margin, trade margin, transport, etc.pp less than 20 Dollars eventualy reach the manufacturer - and now imagine that they can do double the output with the same machinery (or need only half) if you manage to come up with an unified design. Of course, where ever it is possible to use different (cheaper) components for specific markets, without changing the basic designs and manufacturing processes they'll do it. Often some feature is just disabled by software or other simple to add changes. Alas most high class features are not premium add ons but rather premium charges for the same unit (Don't tell me you don't know it from computers - back in the 70s and 80s IBM was great in selling performance enhancements barly more than a new micro code disk :) Doing a complete design only for the US market (or any other market) is obsolete - this is a global business since many years. Anyway Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From red at bears.org Wed Nov 15 12:54:01 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: e-Nauseated (off-topic a tad) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Kevin L. Anderson wrote: > e-Is e-it e-just e-me, e-or e-has e-the > e-world e-added "e-" e-to e-all e-words? Pink pirhana skates glibly past the dot-com star. Stock market plummets. ok r. From elvey at hal.com Wed Nov 15 12:57:46 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Poly88 manual In-Reply-To: <3A12E73A.17078.15EA9C87@localhost> Message-ID: <200011151857.KAA04849@civic.hal.com> Hi Hans I noticed that you had bid on the Poly88 manual ( as I had also done aka mantisshrimp ). Do you have one of these machines? I have two but only one has the cassette interface. Both are operational. I also have a copy of Palo Alto Tiny BASIC that runs in the EPROM's that I could get to you if you like. I am looking for a copy of the cassette based BASIC that Polymorphic originally sold with these. Later Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 15 13:00:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: address path width (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <20001115002321.11806.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 15, 0 00:23:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2265 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001115/cf87812b/attachment.ksh From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed Nov 15 13:00:11 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: New IIci Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E343D@MAIL10> Shawn: I have no use for either the workstation card or the Token Ring cards. I could sell them on ePay, but if you can use either or both, they're yours for a trade. I'm looking for a new 230w ATX power supply (for a MAME cabinet project), two IIci NuBus card slot covers, maybe copies of some games for the ci. That's about what comes to mind immediately. I'm open to other suggestions. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Shawn T. Rutledge [mailto:rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 11:47 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: New IIci On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 09:52:46AM -0500, Cini, Richard wrote: > The workstation display card has a 13W3 connector on it. I > understand that if you use an external display adapter, you can reclaim some > system RAM by disabling the built-in video. Is this true? If so, How can I Hmmm, maybe, if they used some system RAM as VRAM. I'm not sure how to do that. > connect the 13W3 to the Hi-Rez monitor which has a DB15 connector? I looked > in some catalogs, but there doesn't seem to be an adapter made for this. Sure, those adapters exist; but I doubt a 12" monitor can do 1280x1024 (guessing that's what mode the card will be capable of, because 13W3 is for Sun monitors and that's their usual resolution). I had to get an adapter like that to use a PC monitor with a Sun. Fry's has them but you can get much better deals on ebay. Just search for 13W3 and then read the description to see which direction it goes (because most people want to hook a Sun monitor to a PC rather than the other way around). I might be interested in this video card, if you don't plan to use it with a workstation monitor. > > The TokenRing card is useless to me, so it's up for trade. I > installed an Asante ethernet card, but I still have to install the driver > for the card, which I downloaded to my PC. I'm going to use TransMac or > workalike to transfer to 1.4m diskette. The Mac might be able to read DOS-formatted disks. > > What is the best internet browser for this configuration? I have a > cable modem connection, so dial-up is no issue. Netscape or IE will run, but be slow. My IIci has a Daystar 50MHz 030 upgrade, and it still is slow enough to be uncomfortable. I don't know if there is a version of Opera for 68K machines; if so you might want to try it. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420 From elvey at hal.com Wed Nov 15 13:16:06 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Poly88 manual In-Reply-To: <3A12E73A.17078.15EA9C87@localhost> Message-ID: <200011151916.LAA04891@civic.hal.com> To the group: Please ignore the message I just sent to Hans. Dwight Hi Hans Sorry, I meant to send to you directly but didn't check the return address. Dwight From THETechnoid at home.com Wed Nov 15 13:28:57 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Unzip (VMS Vax) Wazzup? In-Reply-To: <20001115095147.A1316@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20001115192425.SCDN19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Yup, to my chagrin, after posting the message I hit DEJA with the exact error message and came up with the same result. Then hit the faq and found the same result. Thanks for putting up with me. VMS is giving me fits. I got it installed and networked over my router so I can surf. Now I'm trying SAMBA. One of the things about new operating systems (new to me ;-0) is that you may get initial gains that you don't realize how much you are missing. I still have difficulty navigating. There are places I can go in FILEVIEW that I can't in DECTERM and vise-versa. Basicly I'm a smart newby who doesn't belong on this list when it comes to VMS/VAX. Regards, Jeff In <20001115095147.A1316@loomcom.com>, on 11/15/00 at 02:28 PM, Seth said: >On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 12:22:47PM -0500, THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > I >can't get unzip to execute properly and the examples in the help files > >and dialog on DejaNews have not helped. >> >> $ run unzip >> >> Gets me the unzip help screen. >> >> $run unzip filename.zip >> >> Gets me an error: >> >> %DCL-W-MAXPARM, too many parameters - reenter command with fewer >> parameters. >Aha, you just have to register a DCL command for UNZIP. >Do this first: > $ UNZIP :== DISK:[PATH.TO.UNZIP]UNZIP.EXE > >(replace DISK and PATH.TO.UNZIP as appropriate, of course!) >Then you can just type: > $ UNZIP filename.zip >and it works, as if by magic. >-Seth -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From THETechnoid at home.com Wed Nov 15 13:35:37 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: e-Nauseated (off-topic a tad) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001115192838.SFOM19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> In , on 11/15/00 at 02:35 PM, "r. 'bear' stricklin" said: >Pink pirhana skates >glibly past the dot-com star. >Stock market plummets. Oh Freddled gruntbuggly, thy nacturations are to me as plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee. Groop! I Implore thee! My foonting turlingdromes Or I shall rend thee in the gobberworts See if I don't! V/R Jeff P.S. This was taken from personal memory so don't give me too much hassle for details. Thanks. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 15 13:27:08 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Computer purchasing lesson and drooling (was: RM Nimbus) In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Nov 15, 0 00:05:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 574 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001115/d885feeb/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 15 13:30:23 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: NextStep/OpenStep on PC? In-Reply-To: <3A123EB8.18A5291D@softstar.it> References: <200011142211.eAEMBQi01544@bg-tc-ppp253.monmouth.com> Message-ID: >> > Well, by the same standpoint a properly outfitted Pentium III will >>blow away >> > either the SS5 or the HP 735/125. The Pentium III will run both >> > NeXTstep/OPENSTEP and Solaris. I've got Solaris 7 on a Dual 400Mhz >>Celeron, > >Now this is interesting. Where can you get it? Last I remember xStep was >purchase by Sun when Next folded , wasn't it? NeXT was purchased by Apple (I think in December of '96), they didn't fold. I believe that as of the last few months OPENSTEP is no longer available. Sun purchased one of the major publishers of NeXT software. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 15 13:32:50 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: NextStep/OpenStep on PC? In-Reply-To: <14866.19272.334972.799278@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: NextStep/OpenStep on PC? (Enrico Badella) <200011142211.eAEMBQi01544@bg-tc-ppp253.monmouth.com> <3A123EB8.18A5291D@softstar.it> Message-ID: > Uhh, NeXT folded? No, they were bought by Apple...now we have >NeXTSTEP on our PowerPC machines, with Apple copyright notices. >Woohoo. > > -Dave McGuire Woohoo????? You've obviously not tried it. I like NeXTstep, and I'm a Mac fanatic, but I'm not happy with "Mac OS X". There is a definite chance that the G4/450 I've got running Mac OS 8.6/G4 is the last Mac I'll own. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com Wed Nov 15 13:17:49 2000 From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: e-Nauseated (off-topic a tad) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0011151333450A.00196@Billbob_linux> Rantin' time, ...It's trite marketing spewed from the Powerbooks of the laziest, most cynical Madison Avenue hacks. Put an e- on it, and it's new, it's hip, and the kids will dig it. Also, older people won't understand it, but they are irrelevant, and what they hell were they ever good for anyway? Nobody really knows what the 'e' actually means (becuase it doesn't actually mean anything) so any object or idea is fair game for e-inization. But this isn't the first time that this has happened. Let's cast ourselves back to the early sixties, to a time we call The Jet Age (some also call this the Populuxe era..) The jet aircraft & spacecraft were made a objects of worship in very much the same way as the internet. Think about your B&K Dyna-Jet Test equipment, the BSA Super Rocket (and the Olds Rocket V-8), the Orbit Mall, and on and on. Every icon of culture from cars to letterheads to ashtrays to fashion took on a streamlined, jet-like motif. It's fame by proxy and value by association. Old marketing ideas for the new millenium; so what did you expect? Change?? -- Bill Layer Sales Technician From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Nov 15 14:33:03 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: New IIci In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E343D@MAIL10>; from RCini@congressfinancial.com on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 02:00:11PM -0500 References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E343D@MAIL10> Message-ID: <20001115133303.E27012@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 02:00:11PM -0500, Cini, Richard wrote: > I have no use for either the workstation card or the Token Ring > cards. I could sell them on ePay, but if you can use either or both, they're > yours for a trade. I'm looking for a new 230w ATX power supply (for a MAME OK, I think I'd only want the workstation card. I don't anticipate ever having a token ring network. > cabinet project), two IIci NuBus card slot covers, maybe copies of some > games for the ci. That's about what comes to mind immediately. I'm open to > other suggestions. I could give you slot covers out of my IIcx (which sortof became a parts machine after I discovered I needed the floppy to put in the IIci). As for software I only remember having one game for color macs, a long time ago... Gem Hunter or something like that, you collect gems while running around the screen and avoiding obstacles, shooting the bad guys etc. I also have HyperCard, SuperCard, ThinkC, Poser, Bryce, Word, and umm I think I just got PageMaker 5 last night (they were throwing out some old stuff at work). Also check out my trade page at www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud/ -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Nov 15 13:32:01 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Converting a 220 VT320 to a 120 VT320 Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001115132925.027595f0@208.226.86.129> Hi Everyone, and especially anyone who has looked into the "guts" of a VT320. I picked up some pristine VT320s (one in the protective bag with Silica Gel) and the only problem with them is that they are 220V units and unlike everything else these days they don't run on anything from 108 - 240 just 220 to 240. However, I've also got a couple of 320's that have really burned tubes and aren't that useful but they run at 120. So my question is has anyone swapped a 120 supply for a 220 supply. (Can this be done?) and alternatively does anyone need a 220 supply if I succeed in swapping mine out. --Chuck From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Nov 15 15:57:56 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: NextStep/OpenStep on PC? Message-ID: Enrico wrote: >Now this is interesting. Where can you get it? Last I remember xStep was >purchase by Sun when Next folded , wasn't it? > >e. Black Hole Inc., http://206.67.57.106/ Is advertising both OpenStep 4.2 (NeXT/Intel/Sparc) and NeXTStep 3.3 (Intel/NeXT or HP PA/Sparc). Prices are in the hundreds of dollars, though. Apple may also still be selling it, I have not looked there. - Mark From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Nov 15 16:05:24 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Rayovac 844B 4.5v alkaline Message-ID: I bought a couple cases (60/case) of Rayovac 844B 4.5v alkaline computer memory batteries, and may grab a couple more if anybody is interested in a case. The cases are new and sealed, but old stock, with batteries so far measuring just about exactly 4.5 volts. Price is great, $50 for a case of 60, $20 for 10, $10 for 3, and $5 each, all plus actual shipping. I am open to trades too, but leave for business in Montreal all next week on Sat. Cheers, Mike Ford From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 15 14:40:35 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2543.354T1750T13005835optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> Tony Duell skrev: >> >> >> I don't think I could form any relationship to a 4-bitter, either. I >> >> woul= >> >> >Oh, there are a lot of them about. Of course it depends what you mean by >> >'4 bit', but if that's the ALU/bus width, then the HP Saturn processor >> >(used in the 71B, 28, 48, 49, etc, etc, etc) is a 4 bit chip. And I >> >certainly like those machines (and yes, IMHO they are computers rather >> >than calculators). >> >> I have no idea what you're on about. =) >Just about every HP calculator since the HP71B has been based on a CPU >called the Saturn (OK, the HP6S and HP30S aren't). This chip has a 4 bit >ALU and external bus, but with 64 bit data registers and a 20 bit address >width. I know there's a Saturn emulator, but I thought that emulated a PA-RISC. =) >> Besides, a 4-bit address bus seems utterly, utterly limited. >Who said anything about a 4 bit address? Address width != ALU width in >general... Ah yes, ALU is arithmetic, not address. 8-bit ALUs usually have a 16-bit address width, right? As you probably can see, I've never been into lowlevel stuff. >The Saturn works with 20 bit addresses. Memory is 4 bits wide, so the >Saturn can address 1Mnybbles (or 512K bytes). Some modern machines >(HP49G, for example) have bank-switching hardware to extend this further. Why would you need more than 512K? >> >> dn't >> >> mind a 64-bitter for NetBSD purposes, though. 26-bitters are also on my >> >> w= ish list. =3D) >> >> >26 bits? I can't think of a machine with a 26 bit data path. I believe >> >some ARMs have a 26 bit address bus, but that's hardly a 26 bit machine. >> >Now 24 bit machines can be interesting... >> >> Oh no? Finding an ARM-based machine around here is about as easy as finding >> a >What 26 bit machine were you thinking of? The old Acorn Archimedes machines. I'm sbscribed to the NetBSD/arm26 list, and I seem to recall that registers... Oh, forget it. I'm a know-nothing when it comes to the Acorn. >> live condor in the northern hemisphere. >> What feature about the older ARM processors is 26 bit? >In some cases, I believe the address bus was 26 bits wide. What a nice, round figure. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. The object of this game is to take an ordinary guy and make him into a Pimp Master. You start off in your home town.You'll gradually build up cash and prostitutes,until you wipe out the other pimps in town. Then,it's time to move on to another,bigger city,and do the same. Pimpin' ain't easy, upcoming game from Delsyd Software From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Nov 15 16:24:57 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Tracking history of old iron References: <20001115020304.Y2478@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <002101c04f52$e3a7a020$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Bradford" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 6:33 PM Subject: Tracking history of old iron > Anybody know of someone/somebody/department I can contact at DEC to > possibly find out the original buyer and/or configuration of a VAX 6000 > that I have? > > serial numbers/model info: http://www.decvax.org/vax6000/images1/vax11.jpg > I'm also looking for a front-panel key for it. Part no. A1 12-26339-01 (I keep one on my key ring) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 15 16:06:54 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: VAX 8350/parts available in Montreal (free - just shipping)... In-Reply-To: <3A12145A.7347459A@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <356.354T2700T13866229optimus@canit.se> rjzambo skrev: >Claude > How big is the unit ? > > People, please don't post HTML. This is no webpage. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. "Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is any different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with you." -- m3000 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 15 16:13:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: Converting a 220 VT320 to a 120 VT320 In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001115132925.027595f0@208.226.86.129> from "Chuck McManis" at Nov 15, 0 01:32:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1273 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001115/efbc4907/attachment.ksh From rdd at smart.net Wed Nov 15 17:06:35 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:49 2005 Subject: e-Nauseated (off-topic a tad) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Kevin L. Anderson wrote: > Seriously, it seems that every word is now becoming > an e-version of itself in this new e-commerce > world. I personally find it e-nauseating for several > reasons, none of which, e-politely, I will e-describe [...] Maketing idiots strike again. I agree with you, it is nauseating. Yet one more bit of proof that giving more people a college education won't improve the world; it simply doesn't make stupid people any more intelligent; instead, it just creates more problems by giving stupid people bigger egos, a degee, and a better chance at screwing more things up. > Maybe, since DEC no longer exists (well sorta in Compaq), DEC is dead. Long live DEC! Compaq, alas, didn't get destroyed instead... Compaq: proof of what I wrote about idiots and education. -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Nov 15 17:07:56 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: NextStep/OpenStep on PC? In-Reply-To: ; from mtapley@swri.edu on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 03:57:56PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20001115150756.A2047@loomcom.com> On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 03:57:56PM -0600, Mark Tapley wrote: > Enrico wrote: > >Now this is interesting. Where can you get it? Last I remember xStep was > >purchase by Sun when Next folded , wasn't it? > > > >e. > > Black Hole Inc., http://206.67.57.106/ Is advertising both OpenStep 4.2 > (NeXT/Intel/Sparc) and NeXTStep 3.3 (Intel/NeXT or HP PA/Sparc). Prices are > in the hundreds of dollars, though. Apple may also still be selling it, I > have not looked there. > - Mark I have NEXTStep 3.3 for Intel and NeXT systems, and these days it's a real pain in the ass to build a system that it can run on. It only supported about three different flavors of any type of hardware, and only two soundcards if I remember correctly. SCSI is a nightmare. But it really does look sweet and feel responsive when you get it to work. Recommended (read: known to work) hardware includes * #9 GXE 64 Pro video card * Adaptec AHA-1542C SCSI card * Toshiba 4-speed SCSI CD-ROM * SCSI hard disk * Pro Audio Spectrum or Sound Blaster 16 (the original). * 3Com 3C509 10Mbit ethernet. Basically anything else will fail to work in some obscure or painful way, though your milage may vary. I never ever got ATAPI CD-ROM to work right, though theoretically a few varieties are supported. You can still download Y2K patches for NeXTSTEP 3.3 from Apple's tech library, formerly NeXTANSWERS. It's wonderously nice to run NeXTSTEP on a system with a 200+MHz cpu and 64+MB of RAM, but it's almost preferrable to stick to black hardware and save yourself the woe. -Seth From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 15 16:41:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME In-Reply-To: <2543.354T1750T13005835optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Nov 15, 0 10:28:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2682 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001115/9c7b7562/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Wed Nov 15 17:20:51 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200011152320.PAA10926@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > One oddity is the ICL/3 Rivers PEEQ. Although it was often claimed to be > a 16 bit machine (the data bus to memory was 16 bits wide, for example), > the ALU was 20 bits wide _because it was used to calculate addresses_ > (this machine had a 20 bit address bus). For that reason, the (rare) PERQ > 2T4, with a 24 bit address bus, has a 24 bit ALU (but still a 16 bit > databus). Hi As example, my Nicolet has a 20 bit ALU/data bus and a 16 bit address. I just wish I had the full 64K by 20 core in it :) As you can see, the numbers can be all over the place. Dwight From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Nov 15 17:10:36 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Rayovac 844B 4.5v alkaline In-Reply-To: Mike Ford "Rayovac 844B 4.5v alkaline" (Nov 15, 14:05) References: Message-ID: <10011152310.ZM924@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 15, 14:05, Mike Ford wrote: > I bought a couple cases (60/case) of Rayovac 844B 4.5v alkaline computer > memory batteries, and may grab a couple more if anybody is interested in a > case. Are these the ones used in Mac Plus, etc? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Nov 15 17:30:00 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Welcome and VME In-Reply-To: "Iggy Drougge" "Re: Welcome and VME" (Nov 15, 21:40) References: <2543.354T1750T13005835optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <10011152330.ZM930@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 15, 21:40, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Tony Duell skrev: > >What 26 bit machine were you thinking of? > > The old Acorn Archimedes machines. > I'm sbscribed to the NetBSD/arm26 list, and I seem to recall that registers... > Oh, forget it. I'm a know-nothing when it comes to the Acorn. > > >> live condor in the northern hemisphere. > >> What feature about the older ARM processors is 26 bit? > > >In some cases, I believe the address bus was 26 bits wide. > > What a nice, round figure. Yeah. Right :-) Someone decided that they'd not need more memory in the foreseeable future than could be addressed in 26 bits (where have we seen this reasoning before, I wonder) and in fact RISC OS even divided that into two images, logical and physical memory. The other part of the reasoning ws that you have to put the processor flags somewhere, and putting six bits in a 32-bit register is wasteful, and we only have sixteen registers to begin with, and we don't need all the width of the PC, and .. and... Anyway, that's how it came about, and RISC OS has always been restricted to 26-bit address ARM chips. Hence the recent discussions on comp.sys.acorn.* about why it would be too much work to make RISC OS run on the newst incarnation of StrongARM, which has a 32-bit mode but not 26-bit. I *think* the original StrongARM has both, but I could be wrong. Earlier ARMs (Arm2, Arm3, Arm{6,7,8}00 are all 26-bit address (No, I don't know how the memory management deals with the 256MB possible in a RISC PC; it came after I left Acorn). In fact, if you want to be pedantic, the PC itself is only 24-bit, because the bottom two bits of the register are flags used to indicate the processor mode (user, interrupt, fast interrupt, supervisor). The bottom two bits of the address bus are alway forced to zero, and all memory accesses are word-aligned. So how does it read a byte (or half-word) off an non-aligned address? Easy, it uses it's barrel shifter to rotate the word while loading! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Nov 15 15:44:22 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: References: <2543.354T1750T13005835optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001115154035.026a5008@208.226.86.10> All this discussion about bits and widths got me thinking again about an issue I've followed from time to time which is processor "balance." There seems to be some ideal ratios between memory, cache, and disk that cause some systems to be more balanced than others. For example a CP/M system with 64K of ram, no cache and a 5MB hard drive was fairly balanced. A PIII with 256MB of ram, 128K of cache and 40GB of disk does not seem "balanced." In this case the processor seems under powered. I thought at one time that it related to bus bandwidth and processor bandwidth (how long a processor would take to execute ram filled with NOPS) that kind of stuff but I've never been able to quantify it. --Chuck From spc at conman.org Wed Nov 15 18:07:43 2000 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: e-Nauseated (off-topic a tad) In-Reply-To: from "Kevin L. Anderson" at Nov 15, 2000 12:35:02 PM Message-ID: <200011160007.TAA16263@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Kevin L. Anderson once stated: > > e-Is e-it e-just e-me, e-or e-has e-the > e-world e-added "e-" e-to e-all e-words? e-nough. -spc (Stupid marketing departments ... ) From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 15 18:43:31 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: New IIci In-Reply-To: <00111510042105.00196@Billbob_linux> Message-ID: <964.355T1550T1035463optimus@canit.se> Bill Layer skrev: >> The ci also has an X-eyes-like application that shows-up on the menu >> bar. I looked in the usual places for where this could be installed, but I >> can't seem to find the file. There's also no configuration menu to disable >> it. If I can't find it, no big deal, but I'd like to disable it if I can. >Stuff running in the menubar is _normally_ located in either the >System/Extensions or System/Control panels folder.You can also look under >Startup Items in the Apple Menu. If you can't get rid of it, just do a clean >install - 7.0.1 is a free download from Apple. As for me, I'd like those eyes. They were often installed on Macs when I was younger. Does anyone know where to find them? >"Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century" > Powered by Slackware Linux 7.1.0 "Going back to a monolith kernel in the 90s is like rewriting a C program in BASIC." -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Allt ?r under kontroll, och caps lock ?r bredvid. From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 15 19:11:11 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? In-Reply-To: <3A11B962.B5E44AC3@cornell.edu> References: <200011142140.NAA22404@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001115201111.0076f20c@earthlink.net> At 05:14 PM 11/14/00 -0500, you wrote: >I think that HP workstation hardware _is_ cool ;-). I always thought the NeXT hardware was pretty cool. I've never been able to come up with a Cube, but have had two NeXTstation Color systems over the years. NeXT customer service even helped me bypass the root password on the first one when it was retired without being reset. Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 15 19:23:23 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: NextStep/OpenStep on PC? In-Reply-To: <3A123EB8.18A5291D@softstar.it> References: <200011142211.eAEMBQi01544@bg-tc-ppp253.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001115202323.0076fab8@earthlink.net> At 08:43 AM 11/15/00 +0100, you wrote: >Now this is interesting. Where can you get it? Last I remember xStep was >purchase by Sun when Next folded , wasn't it? NeXT was purchased by Apple after Jobs took the helm back over. NeXTstep/Openstep is the basis of Mac OS X with it's MACH kernel. Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ From THETechnoid at home.com Wed Nov 15 19:26:12 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001115154035.026a5008@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20001116014350.QCUI2160.femail8.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> I think it is probably impossible to benchmark machines of different architectures and come up with anything useful. Even back in the z80 dayz, machines were incomperable. A C=64, an Atari 8-bit, and an Apple II might all score about 52 drystones, but both the Commodore and the Atari were much faster at graphical tasks than the Apple because they had dedicated coprocessors for the purpose. PC hardware is not nearly so intimately connected as those old machines were. The AMIGA still does pretty well at video today. More than ten years after the Amiga hit the market, the PC is still struggling to realize desktop video editing. The only way to get any cross-platform numbers is to go for the lowest common denominator because it is impossible to predict how the hypothetical target machine is architected. Something like Drystones/whetstones, Flops, mbits@sec for hard disks, mpixels@sec for video. This has been a particularly thorny issue for me as I'm a cross-platform guy who mainly supports PC systems - most run Windos of some variety. Customers go out and get the latest benchmark and expect it to tell them something useful. - Oh, and install 80mb of highly intrusive 'utilities' guaranteed to trash your registry. There actually are very good tools out there in use by processor manufacturers and chipset makers. They use metrics based on good science and observation which is more than I can say for most tests available to us. For them though, the tests and results are mainly bounced off a theoretical model of the product being worked on. I am sure Intel does not use SpecInt or whatever internally..... A machine testing its self is pretty fishy to me. Operating systems being involved. The only time I ever trusted a benchmark was "CHECKIT" for DOS. You'd boot to a prompt and run the thing. It was pretty trusty but I couldn't share my results with an Alpha owner. Oops, rambling. TTYL Jeff In <5.0.0.25.2.20001115154035.026a5008@208.226.86.10>, on 11/15/00 at 08:26 PM, Chuck McManis said: A PIII with 256MB of ram, 128K of cache and 40GB of disk does >not seem "balanced." In this case the processor seems under powered. >I thought at one time that it related to bus bandwidth and processor >bandwidth (how long a processor would take to execute ram filled with >NOPS) that kind of stuff but I've never been able to quantify it. >--Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From jrasite at eoni.com Wed Nov 15 19:46:14 2000 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: New IIci References: <964.355T1550T1035463optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3A133C4E.E03131D2@eoni.com> Program is called "eyeballs" and lives in the extensions folder. And yeah, Iggy, you can get it from Bill. ;o) Jim Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Bill Layer skrev: > > >> The ci also has an X-eyes-like application that shows-up on the menu > >> bar. I looked in the usual places for where this could be installed, but I > >> can't seem to find the file. There's also no configuration menu to disable > >> it. If I can't find it, no big deal, but I'd like to disable it if I can. > > >Stuff running in the menubar is _normally_ located in either the > >System/Extensions or System/Control panels folder.You can also look under > >Startup Items in the Apple Menu. If you can't get rid of it, just do a clean > >install - 7.0.1 is a free download from Apple. > > As for me, I'd like those eyes. They were often installed on Macs when I was > younger. Does anyone know where to find them? From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Nov 15 19:57:00 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Sun Sparc2 offered to me. What should I check for? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20001115201111.0076f20c@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Actually about the Next password... I've got the hardware password reset but haven't been able to get past the root password. The original owner (several years ago) suggested I send the drive back to him and he would set the password to some known state then return the drive. I was trying to accumulate enough System software to blow the original install away and load mine... Just haven't been able to do that yet. George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Jeff Hellige wrote: > At 05:14 PM 11/14/00 -0500, you wrote: > >I think that HP workstation hardware _is_ cool ;-). > > I always thought the NeXT hardware was pretty cool. I've never been able > to come up with a Cube, but have had two NeXTstation Color systems over the > years. NeXT customer service even helped me bypass the root password on > the first one when it was retired without being reset. > > Jeff > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ > > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Nov 15 20:17:51 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: NextStep/OpenStep on PC? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Nov 15, 0 11:32:50 am" Message-ID: <200011160217.SAA13816@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Woohoo????? You've obviously not tried it. I like NeXTstep, and I'm a Mac > fanatic, but I'm not happy with "Mac OS X". There is a definite chance > that the G4/450 I've got running Mac OS 8.6/G4 is the last Mac I'll own. Actually, I saw OS X on my friend's G4 and I'm a believer. Apple finally did something right -- I could actually get a shell! And it's the only Unix implemention I think that adequately hides the nuts and bolts from the dummy user without obstructing someone like me from getting into the guts. I could get a real man page. Cool! The only sour note is backwards compatibility. Running in the classic environment isn't exactly seamless, so it looks like my G3 will be kept in service running 8.6 even if I get one of the new G4s after OS X is released. I have to play Full Throttle on *something*. :-) Now if only I could get Darwin running on this Apple Network Server. I'm sure a 604e/200 could run it well but it's the rest of the funky hardware in the ANS that I'm worried about. I know it won't run OS X itself; Apple has already said that. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Backup not found. Abort, Retry, Vomit, Panic, Write Resume File? ----------- From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 15 19:17:57 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <20001116014350.QCUI2160.femail8.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > The only way to get any cross-platform numbers is to go for the lowest > common denominator because it is impossible to predict how the > hypothetical target machine is architected. Something like > Drystones/whetstones, Flops, mbits@sec for hard disks, mpixels@sec for > video. FOR X = 1 to 1000000 LET A = A + ! NEXT X :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Nov 15 18:41:49 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Converting a 220 VT320 to a 120 VT320 In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001115132925.027595f0@208.226.86.129> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001115183233.0265a8a0@208.226.86.10> At 10:13 PM 11/15/2000 +0000, Tony wrote: >I seem to remember there being 2 PCBs in these terminals. One contained >the logic, monitor circuitry, etc. The other was the PSU (and is the >smaller board). > >I would be _very_ suprised if there's any differences between the 120 and >220V models other than the PSU board (and it may even be possible to >convert one PSU into the other). If you've got both flavours of PSU, and >if they seem to have the same output connector (so you can trivially swap >them) then IMHO it's safe to try it. Well, as it turns out after taking one apart (is there any way to avoid that horrible "crack!" sound when you disconnect the front?) the PSU in the international models had a post marked 120V and one post marked 240V and moving the plug from one post to the other converted them to 120. That was pretty cool and now I have two really nice VT320's. The third still did not power up after this change so I tried swapping out the PSU from one that had a burned tube. There was a bit of a difference in that the power harness connector was "upside down" (its polarized and a molex connector so it could only go one way, but with the reverse polarization I had to try reversing it) I would have nibbled the connector back to make this work however my test with this PSU showed that the terminal worked but the display was not correct. So no doubt there was a change at some point in the power supplies. And being good DEC engineers the new supply won't plug into the old connector and vice-versa. (Ya gotta love hardware version control!) Anyway, for anyone else contemplating this, the PSU in the 320 is a snap to remove, you pull the top off, then disconnect to ground connections to spade lugs, one Molex connection to the logic board, and then what I did was compress the press-in on/off switch so it came out as a unit. The whole thing literally pops out when you press the one plastic retaining "tooth". So some powering of the terminal showed me that it has a fine tube and so I'm probably going to keep it, pull the CRT out and replace one of the somewhat burned ones with a nice new CRT and get bright ambers once again. Personally, I prefer green, but heck one can't always be a chooser. One thing I prefer about the "international" ones is that they have an IEC connector on the back rather than a built in line cord. That is nice as the cord is always getting in the way during transport. The other nice thing in this batch was a DECStation 5000/260 which seems to be in good shape. (there was also a /240 but I ended up raiding the 240 to make a nice 260. If anyone wants the motherboard of the 240 and chassis its free-for-shipping-and-packing (I don't have a box that will fit it so figure $20 to buy one + foam) --Chuck From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Nov 15 20:50:11 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <20001116014350.QCUI2160.femail8.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> from "THETechnoid@home.com" at "Nov 15, 0 08:26:12 pm" Message-ID: <200011160250.SAA11566@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Even back in the z80 dayz, machines were incomperable. A C=64, an Atari > 8-bit, and an Apple II might all score about 52 drystones, but both the > Commodore and the Atari were much faster at graphical tasks than the Apple > because they had dedicated coprocessors for the purpose. Well, speaking as a Commodore freak, actually I would consider ANTIC more of a graphics co-processor than the C64's VIC-II, especially considering display lists. Wish we had something that cool for the 64 instead of having to write complicated raster interrupts for the same purpose. But we're content that SID kicks POKEY's fat Sunnyvale butt. :-) On the other hand, the point that the Apple II just had the single overworked 6502 to do *everything* is well-taken. Ditto for the ZX81's Z80. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- God made the integers; all else is the work of Man. -- Kronecker ----------- From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 15 22:11:45 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <200011160250.SAA11566@stockholm.ptloma.edu> (message from Cameron Kaiser on Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:50:11 -0800 (PST)) References: <200011160250.SAA11566@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20001116041145.1036.qmail@brouhaha.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > On the other hand, the point that the Apple II just had the single overworked > 6502 to do *everything* is well-taken. Ditto for the ZX81's Z80. In the interest of fanning the flames, I'll point out that it was rather difficult to buy either an Atari 400/800 or a Commodore 64 back in 1977. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 15 22:26:22 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia Message-ID: <002f01c04f85$7fbcfaf0$51799a8d@ajp166> Subject: First personal computer nostalgia the brief history of my adventures in computers... 1968 late, PDP-8 and basic. Early Boces LYRICS also known as the Huntington computer project. 1969 early, PALIII on said 8 and early fortran. 1970 fall, PDP-10 TOPS10 what a machine and I had hands on access at site. macro-10, Algol, basic 1972 Cincinatti Millicron 16bitter mini (2000 series) 1973 fall, first pass at intel 8008, real hardware! company machine, still have the chip. 1974 December, Poptronics cover... ALTAIR I had to have one Delivered in January '75, completed four days later. I would add peripherals an memory. form the small 4k, and CT1024 start. 1975 (september) helped friend build Altair. 1976 started getting involved with LICA (LI computer assoc). built first block replaceable mass storage using phillips cassette. Big 64k of storage per tape. 1976 fall, started working with tandy computer. 1977 mar, NS* z80 board and one month later MDC-A Disk. First CPM system (V1.4) 1977 PCC 77, Picked up Technico Superstarter board (TI9900, 2 kbytes ram, 2708 burner with Monitor roms). 1978 dumped altair flakies for a NS horizon-I Crate. First UCSD pascal system. still a great package. 1979 added Netronics explorer 8085, National SC/MP. started as Apps Engineer with NEC Microcomputers. 1979 (august) Helped build first H11 on LI that I knew of. Got H19 terminal to replace TTY. 1980 Cosmac ELF, NEC TK80 added to collection. 1981 IMSAI-imp48 added, started SS100 (multicpu, multitasking Z80 super crate) 1981 (late) Multibus, 8088/8mhz, 512k 4 NEC 8" DSDD CPM-86 up and running. NSC 8073 (sc/mp with NIBBLE). Also TI99/4A with disk. 1982 sept, added LSI-11/2 system from scraps. Added SBC built with NEC 7800 cpu. 1983 11/23 built from DEC salvage. Online, Compuserve account! 1984 AmproLB+ on line. PDP-8E (Megan has it now) DEC LA100-RO printer (still runs great!). 1985 Vt100/125 with VT180 boards. bought box of VT180 boards (all good 20+ of them) for 25$. 1986 pz80 running, real z80 code, started in 82 it was a bit slice z80 @10mhz. Retired many micro code experiments later. 1989 first VAX! (dec loner it's later buy in '93 for 100$). 1991 first PC, a retired Leading Edge Model D (XT clone) I still have it. Actively started collecting systems that were turning up cheap that I couldn't previously afford. The rest... well its a disease. Allison From ncherry at home.net Wed Nov 15 22:40:34 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) References: <200011160250.SAA11566@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <20001116041145.1036.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3A136542.AE1AA384@home.net> Eric Smith wrote: > > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > On the other hand, the point that the Apple II just had the single overworked > > 6502 to do *everything* is well-taken. Ditto for the ZX81's Z80. > > In the interest of fanning the flames, I'll point out that it was rather > difficult to buy either an Atari 400/800 or a Commodore 64 back in 1977. I thought I'd add a fan ... Hmm, seem to recall the same for the Apple II and ZX81 :-). -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 15 23:31:29 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: e-Nauseated (off-topic a tad) In-Reply-To: <0011151333450A.00196@Billbob_linux> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Bill Layer wrote: > Rantin' time, > > ...It's trite marketing spewed from the Powerbooks of the laziest, > most cynical Madison Avenue hacks. Put an e- on it, and it's new, it's hip, and > the kids will dig it. Also, older people won't understand it, but they are > irrelevant, and what they hell were they ever good for anyway? Nobody > really knows what the 'e' actually means (becuase it doesn't actually mean > anything) so any object or idea is fair game for e-inization. > > But this isn't the first time that this has happened. Let's cast ourselves back > to the early sixties, to a time we call The Jet Age (some also call this > the Populuxe era..) The jet aircraft & spacecraft were made a objects of worship > in very much the same way as the internet. Think about your B&K Dyna-Jet > Test equipment, the BSA Super Rocket (and the Olds Rocket V-8), the Orbit Mall, > and on and on. Every icon of culture from cars to letterheads to ashtrays to > fashion took on a streamlined, jet-like motif. > > It's fame by proxy and value by association. Old marketing ideas for the new > millenium; so what did you expect? Change?? Don't forget TURBO! - don > -- > Bill Layer > Sales Technician > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 16 00:06:39 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia In-Reply-To: <002f01c04f85$7fbcfaf0$51799a8d@ajp166> from ajp166 at "Nov 15, 0 11:26:22 pm" Message-ID: <200011160606.WAA17210@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Hah, okay, I get to be (one of) the young whippersnapper(s). 1981 actually *saw* first computer, it was a TI 99/4 of some kind (I think). The teacher wouldn't let me anywhere near it. I was five at the time. 1984 got first computer, a Tomy Tutor, which is as anyone who went to VCF knows by now, is a TI-like architecture, funnily enough. At school we were using Apple II+ systems. My first experience with a C64 was in third grade. I was immediately repelled by quote mode and when my parents bought one, I refused to touch it. I was then given a lecture on how much they dropped on the system and forcibly weaned from the Tutor. 1987 First C128. Meanwhile, my buddy's dad gets a Mac Plus and we spend hours playing ZeroGravity and Stunt Copter. Where art thou, Duane Blohm, O consumer of my middle school? 1990 Buddy finds a MicroVAX. It boots exactly once, and never boots again. 1992 Parents finally buy a 386SX. It was absolutely abominable by today's standards, but the 300dpi laser printer they bought beat the crap out of the 128's abused Star NX-10C. Computer later literally goes up in smoke when Dad tries to install a 387, and we upgrade to a 486, and then a P75 ('97, I think?), and last year they got a K6-2 450. Meanwhile, I inherited the Tomy and all the Commodore equipment, and later acquired all the systems I played with but never got to keep. I got this 7300 a few months ago, pulled the 604e and put in a G3, and now on my desk is an SE/30, this G3/400 "7300", a Commodore 128D and an abused 486 laptop that is the docking station for the 95LX. My IIsi is in the bedroom, and most of the other systems are in the closet except for the Intellivision which is reserved for Loco-Motion and Shark! Shark! No old iron here, but the KIM-1 is on old wood. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. -- Salvor Hardin ----------- From THETechnoid at home.com Wed Nov 15 21:44:32 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <200011160250.SAA11566@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20001116065251.OMDT19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> I couldn't resist. :-) I was being as diplomatic as I could be in describing these very good 6502 machines. Really though, there are several points about the three machines that make them unique: The Apple II was very expandable, had fast paralell i/o for drives at the outset, and a very flexible DOS and filesystem which allowed the machine to make use of it's other strengths. It had moderate graphics and poor sound. DOS allowed long filenames, time/date stamping, a directory tree, and a comand line interface. The open buss had expansion capabilities that dwarfed the Comodore line of machines and made the Atari look difficult (stacked like ZX81 vs cardcage like Apple internal). Both main competitors to Apple used TTL serial for drives which hurt performance. The Atari 8-bit had a great DOS/filesystem (Spartados), fast paralell i/o for hard disks and floppies, great graphics, great sound, and the ability to use most any upgrade conceivable (ram up to 4MB, dual sound chips, you name it). In addition the Atari has a real-time clock, time-date stamping of files, a command line interface, a directory tree, and tons of other modern features the original designers didn't think of but provided for. The XE series had a crappy keyboard that I rather liked, and the XE series XF551 drive was as sturdy as toilet paper under a running faucet. Earlier machines weren't so, but for the XE this is true. Fortunately, a modified XL series drive or third party drive worked for everyone and so we were happy. The Atari 8-bits' floppies are ten times faster STOCK (than C=). With a $25.00 mod they are thirty times faster. A hard disk on the C= runs at about 2.5kbit. Stock Atari floppies run at 19.2kbit, modified is 56kbit - the XE tissuepaper drive at 38.4kbps. The Atari's hard disk options, in addition to a real filesystem, run at 3,500,000bps - yes, that is the right number of zeros 3500kbps. In fact, this translates to something like 35Kbytes per second throughput for reads versus a lucky 2kbps for the C=. There is also a practical, software compatible (almost all) network (mux) for the Atari that would be impossible for the C=. I ran my bbs on one for years. It saved me a bunch of money on hard disks for each machine and made multi-line BBS'ing possible. All while running any software I wanted. Spartados is third-party, so is the high-speed fdd upgrade, the real-time clock, the hard disk upgrade and almost all ram upgrades. In fact, most of the cool stuff was third party.... Nevertheless, they are all compatible with original software and interoperate perfectly. There are no comperable C= products, nor are there from other makers for the C= machine. The Commodore 64 had the worlds worst rom operating system ever created. Most publishers just mapped it out and went straight to hardware to get good results. The sound was somewhat better than the Atari and MUCH better than the Apple. The C='s main fault was the i/o. The machine could read tape ok, but to read disks it had to emulate the tape drive and run at it's speed. This is really horrible. My Atari's hard disk is divided into several 16mb partitions (firmware limit is 64mb per partition but that is still waiting for a new dos). Specs are 1428 files per directory with a 254 char limit for a path. You can stack paths but why? A single 16mb hard disk on the C= would have to be partitioned into 180k 'floppy-sized' chunks and then addressed using machine calls to the drive's rom in order to get a simple directory. There are no directories or even CP/M-like 'user areas' to separate data. All that has to be virtualized by each application within it's own code. There is no DOS for the C=. At least none that allows you to run the majority of software. There is none because the i/o and ram schemes never allowed for one. GEOS does not count because it bypasses or manipulates the original ROM os for greater functionality at the expense of near total incompatibility with non-GEOS software. In <200011160250.SAA11566@stockholm.ptloma.edu>, on 11/15/00 at 10:44 PM, Cameron Kaiser said: >> Even back in the z80 dayz, machines were incomperable. A C=64, an Atari >> 8-bit, and an Apple II might all score about 52 drystones, but both the >> Commodore and the Atari were much faster at graphical tasks than the Apple >> because they had dedicated coprocessors for the purpose. >Well, speaking as a Commodore freak, actually I would consider ANTIC more >of a graphics co-processor than the C64's VIC-II, especially considering >display lists. Wish we had something that cool for the 64 instead of >having to write complicated raster interrupts for the same purpose. But >we're content that SID kicks POKEY's fat Sunnyvale butt. :-) >On the other hand, the point that the Apple II just had the single >overworked 6502 to do *everything* is well-taken. Ditto for the ZX81's >Z80. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From kdavis at ndx.net Thu Nov 16 01:09:42 2000 From: kdavis at ndx.net (Kirk B. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Searchable DEC Card Database Online Message-ID: <200011160709.eAG79gv17939@bender.ndx.net> I put together a perl-based database of the field guide to make it easier to go though my boards. I cleaned it up a bit and put it on my server in case anyone else finds it useful: http://ndx.net/decsearch Kirk From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Nov 16 03:00:11 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Poly88 manual In-Reply-To: <200011151857.KAA04849@civic.hal.com> References: <3A12E73A.17078.15EA9C87@localhost> Message-ID: <3A13B02B.7103.18FB8943@localhost> > I noticed that you had bid on the Poly88 manual > ( as I had also done aka mantisshrimp ). I'm not very good in guessing names. > Do you have one of these machines? No, but since Marvin had one at VCF 2.0 I _realy_ want to get my hands on a unit. > I am looking for a copy of the cassette based BASIC > that Polymorphic originally sold with these. Maybe ask Marvin - he's _the_ Poly 88 Guru :) He got everything - I wouldn't doubt it if he tells one day he owns even the souls of the designers :) Servus Hans -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Nov 16 03:07:30 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Poly88 manual In-Reply-To: <200011151916.LAA04891@civic.hal.com> References: <3A12E73A.17078.15EA9C87@localhost> Message-ID: <3A13B1E2.7797.19023C2B@localhost> > Sorry, I meant to send to you directly but > didn't check the return address. Nothing damaged. I'd love to get more Poly 88 stuff (see my 'public' RE). But I still don't have a Poly. Isn't the eBay price ridicoulous ? (BTW: nice timeing - the jthecman did increase his bid several times, just to stop a buck short :) I'm sorry I can't help, Marv is the right address to ask. Servus Hans -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Nov 16 03:41:54 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Poly88 manual In-Reply-To: <3A13B1E2.7797.19023C2B@localhost> References: <200011151916.LAA04891@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <3A13B9F2.15473.1921B9D0@localhost> > > Sorry, I meant to send to you directly but > > didn't check the return address. > [...] Guilty. Gruss Hans And glad not to live (and die) in Texas -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 16 03:51:06 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia In-Reply-To: <200011160606.WAA17210@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: A short history of personal microcomputing: Well, I started in the early fifties with a relay calculator. Boy, did it click a lot. Err, no, actually, the first time I saw a computer was in a985 when I went with my parents (who'd just become publishers) to a shop with a lot of strange TVs and typewriters which ran on electricity. They bought a Commodore PC-109 (256 k RAM, double 5.25" floppies, green screen), though what I mostly remember about it is the screaming dot-matrix printer. The next year, they bought a Bondwell portable with 3.5" floppies. The screen visibility was horrible. One day, in the late eighties, there was a little computer with a blueish screen instead of the green-screened beast. A Mac SE, running Quark XPress (to think that quark would run on such a machine!). I played my first computer game on that one (Tetris). A while later, a Mac II and Laserwriter were added for layout purposes. And the games (all two of them) ran in colour! What a marvel. What's odd about this is that I hardly ever touched a computer. They were wolely for work, and too expensive. I did get a NES the christmas of 1990, though, and had been glancing at a Commodore 64 due to the ads in the comics, where the C= bastards had simply pasted a photo into the screen. I wonder how many kids were fooled by that (perhaps just those of us from the country). It wasn't until 1992, when I was at the library and found a copy of "Datormagazin", a Commodore (mainly Amiga, by that date) magazine. The computer games were nothing like the eight-bit console games, and you could use the computer for such marvelous applications! At this date, I made up my mind to get an Amiga 500. At the end of the summer, I moved to a nw school and the after-school activites actually included a computer room, entirely equipped with Amiga 500s! Such bliss. Since I hadn't yet found an affordable Amiga of my own, I was there throughout the afternoons, even though the computers were too busy for me to have one for more than an hour. I looked into the few, old books about computing at the school library and started writing BASIC programs, at first on paper, and then in AmigaBASIC (Microsoft, whee!). Then, exactly eight years ago, I bought my first computer of my own. In fact, I bought two. I couldn't refuse the ad selling an Amiga 500 and a Commodore 64 with disk drive (which has never worked, and will soon be converted into a SCSI CD case). Two computers for the price of one! From then on, I've been with the Amiga. 1992 Amiga 500 and C64 1993 Amiga 1200 1994 HD for Amiga 1200, 80 MB (my only HD until last year) 1995 C128D (metal model), swapped for a pirate copy of "Superfrog" 1996 28 MHz 68020 Blizzard accelerator for A1200 1997 486 from a friend of the family, wasn't put into use until last year 1998 Atari 520ST, from a friend, broken 1999 I start at the uni, get student grants and my passion may finally be unleashed. 1999 Amiga 4000 1999 I buy loads of C64s, C128s, STs, Dragon, MSX, Macs, PS/2s, -2000 DECstations, old Amigas, etc. My computer collecting mania has only been made possible in the last year, but I am nevertheless quickly running out of living space! From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 16 04:16:06 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <20001116041145.1036.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 16 Nov 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > On the other hand, the point that the Apple II just had the single overworked > > 6502 to do *everything* is well-taken. Ditto for the ZX81's Z80. > > In the interest of fanning the flames, I'll point out that it was rather > difficult to buy either an Atari 400/800 or a Commodore 64 back in 1977. It was rather difficult to buy an Apple II as well. After all, it was an Apple machine and had as a matter of consequence an Apple price tag. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Nov 16 04:22:50 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: address path width (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <20001115002321.11806.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <007801c04e97$a33435f0$1e799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3A13C38A.24895.194733CE@localhost> > >> Besides, a 4-bit address bus seems utterly, utterly limited. > > For most of those the data path was 4bits the address path was often 12 > > or more bits. > [*] Keeping address pointers in the memory and peripheral chips has > a long history. The Intel 4004 and 4040, the Fairchild F8, and > other processors have done this. IIRC, the F8 also used the dual > data pointer concept. Whereas on the Saturn bus, neither data pointers > is "special", with the F8 one of them is explicitly designated to be the > program counter. And to bring this down to a more common known device: The TI 99/4(A) did use so called GROMs - ROM chips where you could set an address pointer and then read consecutive bytes from the read port. Quite handy for interpreted languages where you access your program sequencialy - and in fact most TI soft, wven the Basic interpreter itself is written in an interpreted language. And even more, the Basic programms where stored not in amin memory, but rather in Video Memory - which is seperate, and again addressed thru a similar port logic (including write this time). If it wouldn't be for some small quirks, the 99/4 would be a premium design - I'd considere it superior to almost all other home/personal units at the same time. Unusual, but great - you almost feel that this system has been developed by guys working on 'big' systems, and not the usual micro processor geek. Gruss H. (Did I mention that I started to programm th TI some weeks ago ? :)) -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Nov 16 04:40:09 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia In-Reply-To: References: <20001114224659.A27012@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> Message-ID: <3A13C799.7151.19570E37@localhost> > 1977: My first 'PC' was a KIM-1, which now resides in the Santa Barbara > Fortress of Schloss Marvin. > [...] First ? Well this woul be a never finished 4 Bit CPU build up from real transistors in '76. Back than, at a training lesson, I did a discrete NAND gate at the size of a bottle cap which stated the thing. The task was to put 4 NANDs on a Eurocard board (4x6" ?) with a defined connector - and I did put 'em as compact as possible into the corners - as mirror images of each other. Doing this I realized that I may put a 4 bit adder on just one board, and it took of - just to be scraped somewhere halveways and replaced in '77 by a design around a Valvo/Signetics 2650 CPU with the terrible hughe MEM of 64 Bytes. All TTL, and horrible expensive - I had no idea, and the TTL list was my best friend :) Data input via switches and trigger button, output via 8 LEDs :) Next was a KIM in 1978 ( I couldn't aford the AIM :) and in 1979 an Apple ][ - I had to take a loan to buy it - just to be drafted half a year later. 1983 a PC-Clone joined my living room (almost as expensive as the real one) - no, not for programming - I still did all IBM Jobs with Turbo Pascal in CP/M on my Apple - transfered them to the PC and did a recompile, colour adjustment ad teyboard test. 1984/5 Finaly a PC replaced my Apple, but again not a IBM, not even a clone, but the Siemens PC-D (in my mind still the best ever x86 Computer). >From there on nothin special anymore :( Oh yes, and another footnote in 1983 - the PET - the first computer I bought just to have it... basicly the start of my collection. :)) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Nov 16 08:02:31 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Rayovac 844B 4.5v alkaline In-Reply-To: <10011152310.ZM924@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001116080128.0323abb0@pc> At 11:10 PM 11/15/00 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: >On Nov 15, 14:05, Mike Ford wrote: >> I bought a couple cases (60/case) of Rayovac 844B 4.5v alkaline computer >> memory batteries, and may grab a couple more if anybody is interested in > >Are these the ones used in Mac Plus, etc? Yes, which machines use these? Just a few days ago, I found that the little lithium batteries for a Quadra are $10 at Radio Shack, but it was for a client. :-) - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Nov 16 07:58:07 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: e-Nauseated (off-topic a tad) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001116075603.0321e500@pc> At 12:35 PM 11/15/00 -0600, Kevin L. Anderson wrote: >Maybe, since DEC no longer exists (well sorta in Compaq), >we can create an e-DEC company, and those of us who use >software simulators for these non-existent computers >are really using e-computers. Sorry, edec.com, .net and .org are already taken. - John From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu Nov 16 08:07:49 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: New IIci Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E3443@MAIL10> Shawn: Although I didn't see this on your Web page, do you have any 4mb Mac SIMMs? If I could get 4-4mb SIMMs and the cover plates, I'd be happy. Rich -----Original Message----- From: Shawn T. Rutledge [mailto:rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 3:33 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: New IIci On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 02:00:11PM -0500, Cini, Richard wrote: > I have no use for either the workstation card or the Token Ring > cards. I could sell them on ePay, but if you can use either or both, they're > yours for a trade. I'm looking for a new 230w ATX power supply (for a MAME OK, I think I'd only want the workstation card. I don't anticipate ever having a token ring network. > cabinet project), two IIci NuBus card slot covers, maybe copies of some > games for the ci. That's about what comes to mind immediately. I'm open to > other suggestions. I could give you slot covers out of my IIcx (which sortof became a parts machine after I discovered I needed the floppy to put in the IIci). As for software I only remember having one game for color macs, a long time ago... Gem Hunter or something like that, you collect gems while running around the screen and avoiding obstacles, shooting the bad guys etc. I also have HyperCard, SuperCard, ThinkC, Poser, Bryce, Word, and umm I think I just got PageMaker 5 last night (they were throwing out some old stuff at work). Also check out my trade page at www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud/ -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Nov 16 08:31:39 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001110104744.02ab2eb0@binhost.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001116080724.0322a670@pc> At 04:54 PM 11/10/00 +0000, John Honniball wrote: >Absolutely. It was just like an 8086, as far as the >programmer was concerned, but it had a few on-chip >peripherals. The threat of being asked to program the 80186 in assembler all day long played a major part in my decision to quit a job back in 1985 or so. I knew my brain would melt, so I became a freelance writer in the Amiga market. If I'd stayed, I would've been doing low-level programming for a box the company was developing - a digital additive synthesizer MIDI rack-mount based on the Atari AMY chip we'd bought from the Tramiels. Previously my work had been in C on sound analysis and MIDI software. The AMY chip was one of the pieces of flotsam that was sold as Atari Games crashed and burned. The AMY chip produced a digital audio stream by digitally summing sine waves from its ROM look-up table. It had 64 digital oscillators, essentially. Each was programmed with slope and destination: get to this amplitude in this amount of time. As such, it was an extremely low bit-rate device, in sharp contrast to other dedicated audio chip sets that needed either large amounts of RAM for samples or more frequent attention from a processor or coprocessor. I'm still struck by the similarities of this method and today's MP3 encoders, which have at their core of tricks the same sort of frequency analysis on short segments of sound. In one experiment I remember being able to recreate telephone-quality voice audio at a bit rate that could be pushed through a 2400 baud modem. We could analyze and store a sound such as a sampled piano key strike in just a few K, and it was pitch independent. (Of course, for a very faithful piano sound, we'd sample a key in each octave or so.) - John From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu Nov 16 08:27:54 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Oops Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E3445@MAIL10> Oops...sorry about that. That was meant to be off-line. It's that damn reply button... Rich From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 16 09:04:30 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <20001116065251.OMDT19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> from "THETechnoid@home.com" at "Nov 15, 0 10:44:32 pm" Message-ID: <200011161504.HAA21180@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Okay, I will now point by point deflate your Atari hubris. ;-) > The Commodore 64 had the worlds worst rom operating system ever created. > Most publishers just mapped it out and went straight to hardware to get > good results. Commodore's *BASIC* was poor in the 64, yes. It was reasonably fast but allowed no access to the machine's graphics and sound without resorting to PEEKs and POKEs and SYStem calls. In that sense, the ROM was crummy. However, the Commodore Kernal (note spelling; Kernal is actually an acronym) is excellent. Commodore standardised a jump table across all their 8-bit machines, even the 6509s and the lamented 65, so that a jump to $ffd2 on any Commodore 8-bit with the possible exception of early PETs always gets you to the print-a-character routine. > The sound was somewhat better than the Atari and MUCH > better than the Apple. The C='s main fault was the i/o. The machine > could read tape ok, but to read disks it had to emulate the tape drive and > run at it's speed. This is really horrible. My Atari's hard disk is > divided into several 16mb partitions (firmware limit is 64mb per partition > but that is still waiting for a new dos). Specs are 1428 files per > directory with a 254 char limit for a path. You can stack paths but why? > A single 16mb hard disk on the C= would have to be partitioned into 180k > 'floppy-sized' chunks and then addressed using machine calls to the > drive's rom in order to get a simple directory. There are no directories > or even CP/M-like 'user areas' to separate data. All that has to be > virtualized by each application within it's own code. Ahem. Disks are not emulated by tape in the 64. In the 64, Commodore had buggy hardware and decided to cripple the serial bus to compensate, hence the speed. Many, many companies designed fast loader applications; my favourite, the Epyx FastLoad, uses some of the other serial port pins to do parallel transfers. Tape is terribly slow also, but then again highly reliable since programs are actually written twice, and then checksummed on top of that. Barring freaky loaders of which there are many, ?LOAD ERRORs are unheard of on the 64 and VIC-20 (unless you run the tape over with a truck or a faulty bulk eraser -- and maybe not even then :-). As a followup, Commodore fixed the serial bus in the C128. In 128 mode with a fast-serial peripheral like a 1571 or 1581, serial bus transfers fly. And they say USB is an original idea. ;-) Also note that the 64 doesn't care what the hard drive's format is. It doesn't have to, because it has no DOS internally (just Kernal routines to write commands to the serial bus and the devices listening are expected to know what to do). So while the CMD hard drives, which are the major serial bus hard drive these days, can run in an emulation mode where they pretend to be a whole lot of disks in a jukebox, they can just be one huge disk and it doesn't make any difference to the C64. The only reason they offer that mode is for clueless commercial software that expects to be in a "real" 1541. Partition switching is not that hard either -- sending a / disk command is not very onerous. If you want real paths, there's a 80-byte patch I have somewhere that emulates it through recursive / disk commands. The 1581 is the same way, except it doesn't have the "1541 jukebox" mode. But all Commodore drives that natively offer subdirectories do it with /. > There is no DOS for the C=. At least none that allows you to run the > majority of software. There is none because the i/o and ram schemes never > allowed for one. GEOS does not count because it bypasses or manipulates > the original ROM os for greater functionality at the expense of near total > incompatibility with non-GEOS software. I don't understand. The DOS is in the disk drives, and you send it commands over the serial bus. This means you can implement anything as a filesystem device as long as it understands serial bus protocol. If you mean like an Atari DOS menu, well, we're clueful enough not to need menus in the Commodore world. ;-) GEOS had its own *fast loader* but still used most of the 1541 DOS routines for things like scratches and renames. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- if (you.canRead(this)) you.canGet(new job(!problem)); -- Seen at JavaOne --- From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 16 09:20:01 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <20001116065251.OMDT19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: > The Commodore 64 had the worlds worst rom operating system ever created. Are you referring to the ROM that existed in the drive? > better than the Apple. The C='s main fault was the i/o. The machine > could read tape ok, but to read disks it had to emulate the tape drive and Say WHAT?! I *strongly* disagree with you here. It never "emulated the tape drive". Sure, it was slow as a dog, but that is due to the serial nature of the drive interface. I don't even think the tape and serial device bus shared the same CIA chip. To get high speed, high capacity drives for the C-64, you just added a commonly available IEEE-488 interface. This gives you a fast parallel interface for using a myriad of faster and far higher capacity drives. SFD1001 and 8050 come to mind right off. > but that is still waiting for a new dos). Specs are 1428 files per > directory with a 254 char limit for a path. You can stack paths but why? > A single 16mb hard disk on the C= would have to be partitioned into 180k > 'floppy-sized' chunks and then addressed using machine calls to the > drive's rom in order to get a simple directory. There are no directories > or even CP/M-like 'user areas' to separate data. All that has to be > virtualized by each application within it's own code. > This is silly. The 1581 (the 3-1/2 Commodore drive) has a higher capacity than this and it's *one* partition, not a bunch of 180k ones. > There is no DOS for the C=. At least none that allows you to run the You mean it accessed the drive by pure magic? Gee, that's fascinating. > majority of software. There is none because the i/o and ram schemes never > allowed for one. GEOS does not count because it bypasses or manipulates > the original ROM os for greater functionality at the expense of near total > incompatibility with non-GEOS software. > Ok, first of all, AFAIK GEOS only turns off the BASIC ROM - this is done to provide more RAM for GEOS and it's applications. Secondly, saying that the '64 had no DOS is totally silly. The DOS code lived in a ROM on the CPU board in the floppy drive. To execute those DOS routines, you could either install a small software wedge to give you shortcut access, access it in your program via ML, or access it by typing a line of BASIC code. There are DOS enhancements (JiffyDOS comes to mind) that greatly improves the drive transfer rate as well as adds functionality to the existing drive DOS. Did you get your Commodore facts from an old Atari press release or something? I mean c'mon man, this stuff is totally false! BTW, there IS a 4MB (more?) memory upgrade for the C64, there is also a 20Mhz 65816 upgrade for it. BTW Cameron, you can dive in here any time. :) Man. I haven't had that much fun since the great Computer War of 1985. *sighs* g. From rdd at smart.net Thu Nov 16 09:35:00 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: Warning: Netscape on older systems In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E3445@MAIL10> Message-ID: Greetings, This is probably known, or at least suspected, by some, but in case anyone here is running a version of Netscape below the latest (or nearly latest (?), 4.76, IIRC) on their UNIX systems (esp. older systems that may not be able to run the newest version), you may want to create a sepearate login and just su to that in another window to run Nutscrape, if you run it at all. Versions prior to 4.76, when visiting web sites containing malicious code, can be made to execute arbitrary commands on one's system. Not sure if this applies to systems other than UNIX as well, but in any case, I think this is yet more proof of the usefulness of external modems that have at least transmit and receive lights on them. On several occasions, I've noticed them blinking when they shouldn't have been when I was using Netscape, and quickly turned the modem off. -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 16 09:44:29 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001116080724.0322a670@pc> from John Foust at "Nov 16, 0 08:31:39 am" Message-ID: <200011161544.HAA17744@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > The AMY chip was one of the pieces of flotsam that was > sold as Atari Games crashed and burned. Atari Games had some interesting pieces of silicon. What is that T11 CPU that I see in game units like APB and Paperboy? (circa mid 1980s) They had a 6502 in tow, but I suspect all it did was I/O. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Mistakes are often the stepping stones to catastrophic failure. ------------ From bills at adrenaline.com Thu Nov 16 09:59:04 2000 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: IMSAI front panel and Cromemco FDC Message-ID: I haven't played with mine in a while, but was reminded of this by a comment in a current ebay auction. Whenever I put a Cromemco 16FDC or 64FDC in an IMSAI box, the front panel stops working (the 4FDC doesn't do this). Looking at the schematics for the Cromemco boards, I can't see any reason for this, but watching the behavior of the FP lights, it looks like the board is driving the data bus whenever a wait is asserted. Can somebody else with the 16FDC or 64FDC schematics take a look? Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From THETechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 16 09:17:31 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <200011161504.HAA21180@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20001116155809.ZNKF19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> In <200011161504.HAA21180@stockholm.ptloma.edu>, on 11/16/00 at 10:17 AM, Cameron Kaiser said: >Ahem. Disks are not emulated by tape in the 64. In the 64, Commodore had >buggy hardware and decided to cripple the serial bus to compensate, hence >the speed. Many, many companies designed fast loader applications; my >favourite, the Epyx FastLoad, uses some of the other serial port pins to >do parallel transfers. Tape is terribly slow also, but then again highly >reliable since programs are actually written twice, and then checksummed >on top of that. Barring freaky loaders of which there are many, ?LOAD >ERRORs are unheard of on the 64 and VIC-20 (unless you run the tape over >with a truck or a faulty bulk eraser -- and maybe not even then :-). That is something the Atari NEVER had - a reliable tape drive. The tapes were SLOW - 600 baud. Though you could do a poke to triple the speed, the tape would just fail to read anyway. It was really horrible. Most folks got disk drives partly in self-defense. Fortunately, the disk drives are bulletproof (untested at range ;-)). >As a followup, Commodore fixed the serial bus in the C128. In 128 mode >with a fast-serial peripheral like a 1571 or 1581, serial bus transfers >fly. And they say USB is an original idea. ;-) Yea, the Atari's serial buss is a lot like USB also. The more things change, the more they stay the same. >Also note that the 64 doesn't care what the hard drive's format is. It >doesn't have to, because it has no DOS internally (just Kernal routines >to write commands to the serial bus and the devices listening are >expected to know what to do). So while the CMD hard drives, which are the >major serial bus hard drive these days, can run in an emulation mode >where they pretend to be a whole lot of disks in a jukebox, they can just >be one huge disk and it doesn't make any difference to the C64. The only >reason they offer that mode is for clueless commercial software that >expects to be in a "real" 1541. Partition switching is not that hard >either -- sending a / disk command is not very onerous. If you want real >paths, there's a 80-byte patch I have somewhere that emulates it through >recursive / disk commands. I was not aware there was any way to address big drives on the C=, but what you say makes sense. The machine and it's mass-storage are so divorced you could use carrier pidgeons for transfers. >I don't understand. The DOS is in the disk drives, and you send it >commands over the serial bus. This means you can implement anything as a >filesystem device as long as it understands serial bus protocol. If you >mean like an Atari DOS menu, well, we're clueful enough not to need menus >in the Commodore world. ;-) Spartados, the dos that finally won the DOSwars on the Atari 8-bit is a command-line dos with most modern features like subdirs, a large path size, a system path like MSDOS, I/O redirection etcetera. To allow a user to access your machine via modem it only requires that your modem be set to auto answer and that you enter "print R1: cr/lf - R1: cr/lf" Sparta's redirection takes care of the rest. Syntax ranges from MSDOS - like for earlier v ersions to MSDOS for the flagship Spartados X. They were a bit skittish about lawsuits early on.... Most were menu-driven, but OS A+, DOS XL, and Spartados were command-line. Sparta is by far the best of them and, thank God, provided True random access within files. The funny thing about the some 30 dos(es) for the Atari 8-bit is that they were all compatible with one another insofar as running software was concerned. >GEOS had its own *fast loader* but still used most of the 1541 DOS >routines for things like scratches and renames. A lot of effort was spent trying to fix inherent i/o problems. This is fun! I'm learning too! Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 10:30:03 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia Message-ID: <20001116163003.7089.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com> OK... my turn 1976, brief access to a computer at school that read mark-sense cards and had a "Lazy T" prompt (so the teacher called the sigil on the left edge of the one-line display). I remember virtually nothing else of it, so I have no idea what it was. 1977, weekly access to a pair of original 4K PETs at the downtown public library 1978, A friend of mine and I discover a DECwriter w/integral acoustic coupler and unearth a dialup number and account to a RSTS machine somewhere with a full suite of BASIC games. Many trees are sacrificed. 1978, A year-and-a-half of savings plus matching funds result in me buying a 30-day-used 32K BASIC 2.0 PET and C2N tape drive. 1979, An older friend loans me his Quest Elf that he used to use to control a simple robot (he gets it back twelve years later) 1981, I build my own Quest Elf kit. 1982, I bring home a C-64 from my first job - my employer (Bruce and James, the creators of WordVision, a word processor for PC-DOS 1.0) received C-64 S/N 00002007 as a free development machine from Commodore. It is so flakey (I'm told there's a bug in the first rev of VIC-II chips) that we replace it at the dealer for S/N 00002345 (which I still have). WordVision is announced for the C-64. My demo of it shows at Comdex. The product is never started. 1982, I find a PDP-8/L at the Dayton Hamvention which takes two years of fiddling to fix (finally got a print set and had it working in days) 1983, I get a 300-baud VIC modem and discover BBSes. 1983, I rescue a PDP-8/i with a rack of DF-32 fixed-head disks because the owner doesn't want to pay to replace the burned-out front panel bulbs. 1984, Bruce and James folds and I keep the C-64 in lieu of pay. 1984, My next job is programming kids games under the Reader's Digest brand for the C-64 and Apple ][. 1984, The longevity of software companies being legendary, six months after I start on the kids games, Reader's Digest stops selling software and I get a new job working with MC68000s (the COMBOARD) PDP-11s (11/04, 11/34a primarily) and VAXen (11/750, 11/730). My first exposure to VMS is V3.6. 1984, My boss gives me a PDP-8/a that's rotting on the shelf. I learn the joys of being a hobbyist and buying from DEC resellers as I aquire an RX8E and RX01 (and eventually RL8A, RL01, KT8A, etc.) 1985, I get an account on a 2Mb 11/750 w/dual RK07s that runs three flavors of UNIX (4.0BSD, 4.1BSD and SYSV) depending on what customer bugs were being worked on at the moment. (I still have _this_ 11/750, too (S/N BT0000354), which I've upgraded to 8Mb w/new mem controller and wire- wrap wire). I begin to learn C. 1986, Amiga 1000 w/256K and one floppy. It doesn't become useful until I bump the RAM to 2Mb and get a hard disk the next year... a WEDGE 8-bit ISA adapter and Everex XT MFM controller w/ST-225 (for $15/Mb) - cheaper than a commercial 20Mb SCSI drive kit from CLtd - $1,000 at the time) 1986, I put up UUCP on an 11/730 at work and discover Usenet. 1987, I run UUCP on the Amiga 1000 at home (and am known to the world as ...ihnp4!cbosgd!osu-eddie!giza!kumiss!erd). I add a second ST-225 to my MFM controller and learn the joy of buying new disks on a reoccurring basis (latest one - last week: 80GB) It's all downhill from there -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ From jjackson at salsa-digital.com Thu Nov 16 10:31:41 2000 From: jjackson at salsa-digital.com (James Jackson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) References: Message-ID: <3A140BED.425157BA@salsa-digital.com> I believe that if one were to actually look at the Serial-Bus on the C-64 (and VIC-20), one would notice a striking similarity to the IEEE-488 (or GPIB-488). I don't recall Commodore's name for the IEEE-488 which they used on the PET series. I purchased the IEEE-488 adapter, an 8050 drive, and had over 2-Megs of floppy storage. I also took my 'little' C-64 to work, and wrote an application in C-64 BASIC that was controlling all sorts of HP equipment. Spectrum analyzer, Sweep Generator, etc. It was a sight to see the engineer's faces when they saw the results. They quickly made me take my stuff home, though. Couldn't have a 'toy' doing this real important work - and controlling expensive equipment. Regards, James Jackson Gene Buckle wrote: > > > The Commodore 64 had the worlds worst rom operating system ever created. > Are you referring to the ROM that existed in the drive? > > > better than the Apple. The C='s main fault was the i/o. The machine > > could read tape ok, but to read disks it had to emulate the tape drive and > Say WHAT?! I *strongly* disagree with you here. It never "emulated the > tape drive". Sure, it was slow as a dog, but that is due to the serial > nature of the drive interface. I don't even think the tape and serial > device bus shared the same CIA chip. > > To get high speed, high capacity drives for the C-64, you just added a > commonly available IEEE-488 interface. This gives you a fast parallel > interface for using a myriad of faster and far higher capacity drives. > SFD1001 and 8050 come to mind right off. > > > but that is still waiting for a new dos). Specs are 1428 files per > > directory with a 254 char limit for a path. You can stack paths but why? > > A single 16mb hard disk on the C= would have to be partitioned into 180k > > 'floppy-sized' chunks and then addressed using machine calls to the > > drive's rom in order to get a simple directory. There are no directories > > or even CP/M-like 'user areas' to separate data. All that has to be > > virtualized by each application within it's own code. > > > This is silly. The 1581 (the 3-1/2 Commodore drive) has a higher capacity > than this and it's *one* partition, not a bunch of 180k ones. > > > There is no DOS for the C=. At least none that allows you to run the > You mean it accessed the drive by pure magic? Gee, that's fascinating. > > > majority of software. There is none because the i/o and ram schemes never > > allowed for one. GEOS does not count because it bypasses or manipulates > > the original ROM os for greater functionality at the expense of near total > > incompatibility with non-GEOS software. > > > > Ok, first of all, AFAIK GEOS only turns off the BASIC ROM - this is done > to provide more RAM for GEOS and it's applications. Secondly, saying that > the '64 had no DOS is totally silly. The DOS code lived in a ROM on the > CPU board in the floppy drive. To execute those DOS routines, you could > either install a small software wedge to give you shortcut access, access > it in your program via ML, or access it by typing a line of BASIC code. > There are DOS enhancements (JiffyDOS comes to mind) that greatly improves > the drive transfer rate as well as adds functionality to the existing > drive DOS. > > Did you get your Commodore facts from an old Atari press release > or something? I mean c'mon man, this stuff is totally false! > > BTW, there IS a 4MB (more?) memory upgrade for the C64, there is also a > 20Mhz 65816 upgrade for it. > > BTW Cameron, you can dive in here any time. :) > > Man. I haven't had that much fun since the great Computer War of 1985. > *sighs* > > g. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 10:34:05 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: New IIci Message-ID: <20001116163405.60287.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com> --- THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > > Like I said, it has 8mb of RAM. I have a few random 30-pin PC SIMMs > >laying around. Can I typically use these? What should I watch for? > > I think you need true-parity simms for that. Macs do not require parity. I have used 1Mb and 4Mb PC SIMMs in my MacIIci with no problems. Speaking of which, I have more MacII hardware than I will _ever_ use. If anyone is looking for IIci parts, please write me. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Nov 16 10:43:10 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia In-Reply-To: <20001116163003.7089.qmail@web9506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001116104232.01ee5de0@pc> At 08:30 AM 11/16/00 -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: >1986, I put up UUCP on an 11/730 at work and discover Usenet. >1987, I run UUCP on the Amiga 1000 at home 'uucp' on an Amiga in 1987? Really? - John From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu Nov 16 10:50:04 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:50 2005 Subject: NextStep/OpenStep on PC? References: <3.0.2.32.20001116090015.01658d1c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <3A14103C.8A9654B5@cornell.edu> "Cameron Kaiser" wrote: > Actually, I saw OS X on my friend's G4 and I'm a believer. Apple finally > did something right -- I could actually get a shell! And it's the only Unix > implemention I think that adequately hides the nuts and bolts from the dummy > user without obstructing someone like me from getting into the guts. I could > get a real man page. Cool! I also liked it for the most part. However, I did not like that it needs 128MB to run (though Apple said that the final version will run in 64MB), nor the fact that the cd comes without the development environment; that you have to get separately. Also, I still don't quite like the "gelcap" look nor the positioning of the window buttons. But it is a huge improvement, and the best part is that finally, there is a Mac OS with memory protection. For me, this was the weakest point of MacOS, in fact a most serious flaw. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From transit at lerctr.org Thu Nov 16 10:57:44 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: e-Nauseated (off-topic a tad) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001116075603.0321e500@pc> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, John Foust wrote: > At 12:35 PM 11/15/00 -0600, Kevin L. Anderson wrote: > >Maybe, since DEC no longer exists (well sorta in Compaq), > >we can create an e-DEC company, and those of us who use > >software simulators for these non-existent computers > >are really using e-computers. > > Sorry, edec.com, .net and .org are already taken. How about edec.edu? We could become the new "E-College of DEC" :=) From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com Thu Nov 16 10:58:31 2000 From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: e-Nauseated (off-topic a tad) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00111611023202.00275@Billbob_linux> Oh god.. Don Maslin painfully reminded: > Don't forget TURBO! Curse you Don Maslin ;) I _HAD_ forgotten about the Turbo Marketing Revolution of the mid 1980's. Question is, what inspired it? Was there some turbocharged automobile that set the trend, or was it just a random convergence of mediocrity that made it all possible? Remebering his Yamaha Seca 650 Turbo.. Bill Layer One day we'll look back on this, laugh nervously, and change the subject. From marvin at rain.org Thu Nov 16 11:04:38 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Trivia and Re: Poly88 manual References: <3A12E73A.17078.15EA9C87@localhost> <3A13B02B.7103.18FB8943@localhost> Message-ID: <3A1413A6.2EAE441B@rain.org> Hans Franke wrote: > > Maybe ask Marvin - he's _the_ Poly 88 Guru :) > He got everything - I wouldn't doubt it if he > tells one day he owns even the souls of the > designers :) I don't have everything nor do I know a lot about Polymorphic, but I do have what was left of Polymorphic. There is some advantage of living in the city where a computer was designed and built :). I have a line on two more Poly-88 computers but haven't been able to shake them loose yet. As far as manuals are concerned, I have what appear to be the original manuals that were used to make up the manuals that were distributed. I still need to set up one of the Poly computers with both 5 1/4" and 8" disk drives to try and save the mountains of data on the floppies that came from Polymorphic. Actually, one of the things I am most interested in is taking a look at the source code for the stuff they distributed. Trivia - As I think, most people know that the Poly88 was originally named the MicroAltair and was renamed because of an objection from MITS. I have been talking to people associated with Polymorphic trying to find out how many might have been manufactured with the MicroAltair logo. As best as I have been able to find out, the MicroAltair was only used for some promotional material and was not actually manufactured as such. I'll be talking to Dana Trout (Pickles & Trout) in about an hour and I'll ask him more about that. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Nov 16 11:05:36 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001116104232.01ee5de0@pc> from John Foust at "Nov 16, 2000 10:43:10 am" Message-ID: <200011161705.eAGH5bX06838@bg-tc-ppp858.monmouth.com> > At 08:30 AM 11/16/00 -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >1986, I put up UUCP on an 11/730 at work and discover Usenet. > >1987, I run UUCP on the Amiga 1000 at home > > 'uucp' on an Amiga in 1987? Really? > > - John > Sure... It existed under DOS at least that far back... Too bad there aren't cheap uucp mail/news connections available. I was lakewood.com for a while using a UUCP over TCP/IP link from a friend who held my MX record. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com Thu Nov 16 11:03:58 2000 From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Whee! SX-64 Exec found (funny) In-Reply-To: <3A087CA7.17FF7374@vbe.com> References: <3A084252.A8335E5C@vbe.com> <3A087CA7.17FF7374@vbe.com> Message-ID: <00111611093703.00275@Billbob_linux> Just had to share my excitement / amusement. I nabbed a really mint Commodore SX-64 Executive last night at the thrift store for $9.95. It was just sitting there running, with the cursor flying side to side on the screen.. now here is the funny part: the reason the curson was moving, was that there was a pair of RABBIT EARS sitting on the keyboard, holding down the spacebar. Apparently, the clever staff had tried to attach the rabbit ears to the machine, thinking it was a portable televsion set...! Must have thought it was one of those "web TVs" ;) -- Bill Layer Sales Technician From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Nov 16 11:24:54 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Whee! SX-64 Exec found (funny) In-Reply-To: <00111611093703.00275@Billbob_linux> Message-ID: Some people have all the luck, The last two SX-64's I've found at thift stores don't seem to work. They have different symptoms so my hope someday is to somehow swap parts between the two and get one running.... George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Bill Layer wrote: > Just had to share my excitement / amusement. I nabbed a really mint Commodore > SX-64 Executive last night at the thrift store for $9.95. It was just sitting > there running, with the cursor flying side to side on the screen.. now here is > the funny part: the reason the curson was moving, was that there was a pair of > RABBIT EARS sitting on the keyboard, holding down the spacebar. Apparently, the > clever staff had tried to attach the rabbit ears to the machine, thinking it > was a portable televsion set...! > > Must have thought it was one of those "web TVs" ;) > > -- > Bill Layer > Sales Technician > > From marvin at rain.org Thu Nov 16 11:30:33 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia References: <20001114224659.A27012@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> <3A13C799.7151.19570E37@localhost> Message-ID: <3A1419B9.F1EAD76A@rain.org> I started in computers back at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo in 1967 with a Fortran IV class and continued on with 360 Assembly and Cobol. After graduation, I went to work for Nabisco. After being transferred to the head offices in NYC, I managed to get transferred to Richmond, VA where a new state of the art plant was being constructed. During that time, I attended a number of DEC training classes up in Maynard at the new (at that time) training facility. While in Richmond, I worked mainly on the PDP16 and 11/05 with a small amount of work on the 11/45. From there: 1979 or so - bought a Vector I (which I still have). 1979 or so - bought an Atari 400 and peripherals (which I still have.) 1980 or so - traded a milling machine for a Northstar Horizon (which I still have) 1984 or so - bought a Corona 400 luggable 1985 onwards - People started giving me the old S-100 computers they were throwing away It was about this time I began thinking of saving this stuff because of the historical value. Things get mixed up from this point onwards, but I ended up not wanting to see these things just thown away and ended up with a wide array of computers including a couple of Altairs used at Raytheon that were going to be tossed with the guy was leaving Santa Barbara. And things just went from there. By 1991, I probably had about 100 computers or so. Documentation is something I am always looking for. I had built up a network of friends who kept an eye open for stuff being tossed or sold they thought I would be interested in. One of the few times I actually bought something for more than a couple of dollars for the collection was from someone in the LA area who was selling a Heathkit H-8 system for $100. Turned out to be a good buy as it included the processor, 5 1/4" floppy drives, 8" drives, spare cards, and boxes of documentation and software totalling some 10 - 15 cubic feet of stuff. Somewhere around 1996, I found out about this listserver and joined. Sellam was one of the people who had a vision of a classic computer show and started VCF from conversations started on this listserver. We have a lot of people on this list with a wealth of knowledge who are more than willing to share and I have referred a number of people to this list. Ah, life is good! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Nov 16 09:43:15 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: IMSAI front panel and Cromemco FDC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001116094130.01a5f048@208.226.86.10> At 10:59 AM 11/16/2000 -0500, you wrote: >I haven't played with mine in a while, but was reminded >of this by a comment in a current ebay auction. Whenever >I put a Cromemco 16FDC or 64FDC in an IMSAI box, the front >panel stops working (the 4FDC doesn't do this). Looking >at the schematics for the Cromemco boards, I can't see any >reason for this, but watching the behavior of the FP lights, >it looks like the board is driving the data bus whenever a >wait is asserted. Can somebody else with the 16FDC or 64FDC >schematics take a look? It was how they implemented the RDOS shadow ROM. There was a Cromemco tech-note that came with the 16FDC that showed some mod to allow it to work with the IMSAI front panel. IIRC, the result was you had to key in something like three bytes of code to get it to boot automatically from the floppy. --Chuck From THETechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 16 10:08:11 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001116174847.DBQR19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> In , on 11/16/00 at 11:08 AM, Gene Buckle said: >> The Commodore 64 had the worlds worst rom operating system ever created. >Are you referring to the ROM that existed in the drive? No, to the machine's ROM. The Basic was a quick hack of Mbasic and didn't take advantage of the custom hardware on the C=. >> better than the Apple. The C='s main fault was the i/o. The machine >> could read tape ok, but to read disks it had to emulate the tape drive and >Say WHAT?! I *strongly* disagree with you here. It never "emulated the >tape drive". Sure, it was slow as a dog, but that is due to the serial >nature of the drive interface. I don't even think the tape and serial >device bus shared the same CIA chip. Maybe I did get that from some 80's propoganda. Sorry. The drive was still Godaweful slow. Not because it is serial either. There was something badly wrong with thier design. >To get high speed, high capacity drives for the C-64, you just added a >commonly available IEEE-488 interface. This gives you a fast parallel >interface for using a myriad of faster and far higher capacity drives. >SFD1001 and 8050 come to mind right off. That was the 1mb floppy right? I didn't know that ran on a different buss. >> There is no DOS for the C=. At least none that allows you to run the >You mean it accessed the drive by pure magic? Gee, that's fascinating. Not by magic. By machine language calls to the drive's rom. This is not a complete dos, but a kernel you can make calls to. Imagine CP/M. Then subtract the command interpreter. Sure, all the calls are there but it's vastly more difficult to use.... If you go ahead and write a ccp you lose compatability because of the ram it takes up. I don't know if there is a cartridge-based DOS for the C=. Spartados X is a 64k cart that bitbangs the ram/rom to avoid bumping memlo. The only reason I can imagine for doing it the way they did is to save ram for applications compatibility. If so, this was poor planning. >> majority of software. There is none because the i/o and ram schemes never >> allowed for one. GEOS does not count because it bypasses or manipulates >> the original ROM os for greater functionality at the expense of near total >> incompatibility with non-GEOS software. >> >Did you get your Commodore facts from an old Atari press release or >something? I mean c'mon man, this stuff is totally false! Maybe some... >BTW, there IS a 4MB (more?) memory upgrade for the C64, there is also a >20Mhz 65816 upgrade for it. Yea, there is the Turbo 816 upgrade for the Atari too. It never went very far though. In 816 mode compatability suffers badly. >Man. I haven't had that much fun since the great Computer War of 1985. >*sighs* Me too. Back then though a lot of the folks were just ignorant flamers. This group is a bit more mature and knowledgable.... ;-) Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 16 10:46:51 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <200011160250.SAA11566@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > On the other hand, the point that the Apple II just had the single > overworked 6502 to do *everything* is well-taken. Ditto for the ZX81's > Z80. The fun with the Apple ][ was making it do things the other computers could do, (although not nearly as adequately, but still), without all the adjunct hardware :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Thu Nov 16 12:06:28 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: December 19th, 1978: My birthday, and a Commodore PET 2001 is delivered to the school (8K model). Much BASIC programming is done... 1979: Various Apple ][s, TRS-80s and Nascoms appear. I also build an Acorn System One for the school electronics lab. February 1980: My first computer, a Compukit UK101 (clone of the OSI Superboard II). Only 4K, in 2114 chips. 1981-1985: University computers, the Prime P750 (Primos, Software Tools) and PDP-11/44 (Seventh Edition Unix). 1984: Vectrex, bought from Hamleys, London. 1986: First job, programming PC presentation graphics in assembler, BASIC and C. 1987: Atari 520ST, purchased on Tottenhan Court Road in London. Very cheap, non-working unit, which I fixed by reseating the chips. 1989: New job with INMOS and the transputer. 1990: First "PC", a 25MHz 386SX motherboard and no case. 1992: First "classic", an Apple ][. Closely followed by many other classics, once people got to know that I would take any old junk off their hands. Things like PDP-11s, PERQs, Suns, MicroVaxen, BBCs, Dragons, Vectrexes, Whitechapels. 1995: A new PC! Junked 80486 motherboard. IDE disks, really modern stuff! 1998: House full. Change of policy: only collect *small* classic computers... 1999: Another new PC -- Pentium I, 133MHz, ATX. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 16 11:07:33 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <200011161504.HAA21180@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > However, the Commodore Kernal (note spelling; Kernal is actually an acronym) And it stands for...? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From THETechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 16 12:14:57 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001116181844.EDAC19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Well, that's the point with any machine isn't it? I wish there was a COCO user on the list to join in. The COCO was one of the best 8-bits ever made. V/R Jeff In , on 11/16/00 at 01:14 PM, Sellam Ismail said: >On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> On the other hand, the point that the Apple II just had the single >> overworked 6502 to do *everything* is well-taken. Ditto for the ZX81's >> Z80. >The fun with the Apple ][ was making it do things the other computers >could do, (although not nearly as adequately, but still), without all the >adjunct hardware :) >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger >http://www.vintage.org -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From bills at adrenaline.com Thu Nov 16 12:37:44 2000 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: IMSAI front panel and Cromemco FDC In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001116094130.01a5f048@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: > >I haven't played with mine in a while, but was reminded > >of this by a comment in a current ebay auction. Whenever > >I put a Cromemco 16FDC or 64FDC in an IMSAI box, the front > >panel stops working (the 4FDC doesn't do this). Looking > >at the schematics for the Cromemco boards, I can't see any > >reason for this, but watching the behavior of the FP lights, > >it looks like the board is driving the data bus whenever a > >wait is asserted. Can somebody else with the 16FDC or 64FDC > >schematics take a look? > > It was how they implemented the RDOS shadow ROM. There was a > Cromemco tech-note that came with the 16FDC that showed some > mod to allow it to work with the IMSAI front panel. IIRC, the > result was you had to key in something like three bytes of code > to get it to boot automatically from the floppy. If you could find that, I would really appreciate it. I couldn't find it in any of the Cromemco docs I have. From transit at lerctr.org Thu Nov 16 12:49:15 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <20001116181844.EDAC19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > Well, that's the point with any machine isn't it? > > I wish there was a COCO user on the list to join in. The COCO was one of > the best 8-bits ever made. I hung around Radio Shack back in the 80's, playing w/the Coco. I even got into those "hidden" graphics modes (Semigraphics). Never got into the Flex or OS9 stuff, though... From THETechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 16 13:07:49 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001116190023.FMTW19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> I have allways wanted a full-blown COCO but it hasn't happened yet. Even back computer wars of the 80's, no one could really criticize the COCO. It was excellent at IO, good graphics, alternative operating system with multitasking, good sound, good support. The COCO might be the best all-round 8-bit ever. Atari and C= had better graphics and sound, but the PIO floppy/hard disk interfaces for them didn't come out until years after the coco's did. V/R Jeff In , on 11/16/00 at 02:07 PM, "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" said: >On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote: >> Well, that's the point with any machine isn't it? >> >> I wish there was a COCO user on the list to join in. The COCO was one of >> the best 8-bits ever made. >I hung around Radio Shack back in the 80's, playing w/the Coco. I even >got into those "hidden" graphics modes (Semigraphics). Never got into the >Flex or OS9 stuff, though... -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 16 12:52:59 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <20001116174847.DBQR19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: > >BTW, there IS a 4MB (more?) memory upgrade for the C64, there is also a > >20Mhz 65816 upgrade for it. > > Yea, there is the Turbo 816 upgrade for the Atari too. It never went very > far though. In 816 mode compatability suffers badly. > I'm pretty sure CMD is still manufacturing the SuperCPU modules. I don't know if there are any compatibility issues with it however, since I've never owned one. > >Man. I haven't had that much fun since the great Computer War of 1985. > >*sighs* > > Me too. Back then though a lot of the folks were just ignorant flamers. > This group is a bit more mature and knowledgable.... ;-) I miss the really insane BBS battling that went on back then. I'm hoping that _real_ bulletin board systems will start a slow comeback, but I'm probably just wishing in the wind. :) g. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 16 13:24:31 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <3A136542.AE1AA384@home.net> (message from Neil Cherry on Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:40:34 -0500) References: <200011160250.SAA11566@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <20001116041145.1036.qmail@brouhaha.com> <3A136542.AE1AA384@home.net> Message-ID: <20001116192431.11788.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > In the interest of fanning the flames, I'll point out that it was rather > difficult to buy either an Atari 400/800 or a Commodore 64 back in 1977. Neil wrote: > Hmm, seem to recall the same for the Apple II and ZX81 :-). You recall wrong as regards the Apple ][. From transit at lerctr.org Thu Nov 16 13:32:34 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <20001116190023.FMTW19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > I have allways wanted a full-blown COCO but it hasn't happened yet. Even > back computer wars of the 80's, no one could really criticize the COCO. It wasn't quite as popular as the black-and-white TRS-80's, or the Apple/Atari/Commodores, if I recall. But it wasn't a bad little machine, though. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Nov 16 13:33:34 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia Message-ID: <20001116.133334.-113853.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> 1978: As a Junior in HS, I learned BASIC+ on a timeshared PDP-11 running RSTS, connected via an acoustic modem to an ASR-33. Pissed off the 'teechur' by using the 'chad' for confetti. . . 1979: Timeshare company fired; school aquires two OSI C4P's (?). As a senior, I have little time to play with them, but seriously covet the OSI SBC's being sold at the OSI dealership across the street (Back then, HS kids didn't have the $$$ like they have now). 1980: I flunk out of college, but not before I manage to finish a programming assignment on the school's PDP-11 (again running RSTS). I end up playing Dungeons & Dragons on it all through the winter recess (sometimes all nite . . .). 1982: I move to California, get a job at a calibration lab. Purchase a VIC-20 from a co-worker, for $200. Spend more than that on a 1541 FDD. SPend almost *twice* that on a VideoPak from Data-20: I get an 80-column display, and 64k of *paged* RAM (hey, I was single . . .) 1984: Changed jobs, but this new workplace has *no* office automation whatsoever. We need something to make plots of test data; my VIC is pressed into service. The secretary (my future wife) is pleased to learn that this 'toy' computer can also do invoices. Boss is too stoned on coke to notice. 1985: I purchase my first SS-50 box at the TRW swapmeet for $50. I get a Soroc IQ-120 in the deal. I have to shell out almost $400 for a pair of 400k floppy drives for it. Mike Evenson introduces me to the wonderful world of the FLEX OS. I'm seriously hooked. 1986: Stoned boss get fired. New boss orders me to take my 'toys' home. An IBM-PC/XT is ordered from the home office. (This is the beginning of the end, folks . . ) 1987: Bought another SS-50, and a bunch of parts. I wirewrapped a centronics printer interface for it, and it works the first time I try it. Girlfriend can't understand what all of the yelling and screaming is about . . . 1988: AN aquaintence gives me a TELEX-1186 (actually a re-badged MAD-186). I add a hard disk, and I now have MS-DOS at home. Later that year, I bought our first PC: An 80286-12 by DTK. 1989: I get fired from my new job as a sysadmin after only 5 months. Convinced that only masochists (or the mentally ill) take sysadmin jobs. AT this point a whole room of our apartment is dedicated to my computers: an H-89, *three* SS-50's of various makes, and the DTK. What happens after this isn't important-- like someone else here said: "It's a disease". Today, my 'collection' fills an entire basement, and ranges from the original VIC which I bought in 1982 to HP-9000/300's to even a couple of PDP-11 and MicroVAX machines. My favorite 'big' machines, though, are my DG 88k AViiON's. They're uncommon, *very* cheap, and (to me, anyway) just *too* cool! ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 16 13:33:08 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: (message from Iggy Drougge on Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:16:06 +0100 (MET)) References: Message-ID: <20001116193308.11923.qmail@brouhaha.com> > It was rather difficult to buy an Apple II as well. After all, it was an > Apple machine and had as a matter of consequence an Apple price tag. When I was in junior high school, a close friend and classmate managed to buy one on his earnings from a part-time fast food job. Maybe they weren't dirt cheap, but they were affordable. It's easy for other companies to enter the market with cheaper products *after* someone has already established a market for (relatively) inexpensive compact ready-to-use microcomputers (vs. S100 boxes and the like). If Apple was able to maintain their prices after competitors like Atari and Commodore introduced cheaper machines with whizzier graphics, that demonstrates that consumers valued expandability and a broad software base more than whizzy graphics. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 16 13:36:47 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001116080724.0322a670@pc> (message from John Foust on Thu, 16 Nov 2000 08:31:39 -0600) References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001110104744.02ab2eb0@binhost.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20001116080724.0322a670@pc> Message-ID: <20001116193647.11984.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Foust wrote: > based on the Atari AMY chip we'd bought from the Tramiels. [...] > The AMY chip was one of the pieces of flotsam that was > sold as Atari Games crashed and burned. Presumably you meant "as Atari Corp. crashed and burned."? Atari Games was around for quite a few more years, though they eventually got acquired by Williams, then Midway. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Nov 16 11:44:31 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: BBSes (Was Re: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance)) In-Reply-To: References: <20001116174847.DBQR19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001116114115.02900fa0@208.226.86.10> At 10:52 AM 11/16/2000 -0800, you wrote: >I miss the really insane BBS battling that went on back then. I'm hoping >that _real_ bulletin board systems will start a slow comeback, but I'm >probably just wishing in the wind. :) www.slashdot.org What you perhaps fail to realize is the a "BBS" is an expression of an extremely ancient human trait (sit around and flame each other :-) The dial in kind of the 70's gave way to vastness of Usenet and are now being replaced by web sites that behave in much the same way. All we've done is removed the modem and xmodem and replaced them with web browsers and ftp. A telnet version of a BBS would be even easier. I think this is sort of exemplified in what Slashdot does. --Chuck From transit at lerctr.org Thu Nov 16 13:45:36 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/10/27/doomed_by_ebay/index.html "Doomed By E-bay"--more about tchotchkes than computers, but it shows how the auction sites have changed the dynamics of collecting anything. Wonder what happened to the swapmeets/hamfests/etc? http://www.eham.net/articles/1316 From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 16 13:44:34 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip In-Reply-To: <200011161544.HAA17744@stockholm.ptloma.edu> (message from Cameron Kaiser on Thu, 16 Nov 2000 07:44:29 -0800 (PST)) References: <200011161544.HAA17744@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20001116194434.12101.qmail@brouhaha.com> > What is that T11 CPU that I see in game units like APB and Paperboy? It's a DEC T11 processor, AKA DCT11. It's roughly a single-chip PDP-11/05. The bizarre thing is that they switched from the MC68000 and MC68010 used in earlier games to the T11, which was lower performance, more expensive, and had fewer development tools. Even some of the engineers who were there at the time have not been able to give me a satisfactory explanation of how this happened. It's also somewhat bizarre that they used the MC68010. Apparently that happened because Motorola sales people lied (that's their job), and claimed that Motorola intended to offer the '010 in speed grades at least as fast as the '000, and for less than a 10% premium. If that had been true, it would have been reasonable, but the '010 offers so little performance benefit for non-virtual-memory systems that the actual 2-5x price multiplier was unacceptable. And they never actually shipped '010s rated for more than 12 MHz. And the timing on the 12 MHz parts sucked. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 16 13:48:24 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: NextStep/OpenStep on PC? In-Reply-To: <3A14103C.8A9654B5@cornell.edu> (message from Carlos Murillo-Sanchez on Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:50:04 -0500) References: <3.0.2.32.20001116090015.01658d1c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> <3A14103C.8A9654B5@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <20001116194824.12208.qmail@brouhaha.com> > But it is a huge improvement, and the best part is > that finally, there is a Mac OS with memory protection. > For me, this was the weakest point of MacOS, in fact > a most serious flaw. But it's NOT a MacOS with memory protection. It's a Unix with memory protection, and a bag on the side to run old programs (poorly). From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 16 13:52:42 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: (message from Sellam Ismail on Thu, 16 Nov 2000 08:46:51 -0800 (PST)) References: Message-ID: <20001116195242.12254.qmail@brouhaha.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > The fun with the Apple ][ was making it do things the other computers > could do, (although not nearly as adequately, but still), without all the > adjunct hardware :) Time for one of my favorite quotes: And in those days many a clever programmer derived an immense intellectual satisfaction from the cunning tricks by means of which he contrived to squeeze the impossible into the constraints of his equipment. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra, "The Humble Programmer", 1972 ACM Turing Award Lecture He was writing about the very early days of computer programming, when every computer was unique. In these days of bloatware, there are very few programmers that still practice the art of achieving the maximum results from the minimum system (hardware and software). But those of us that do so *still* derive "an immense intellectual satisfaction". :-) Eric From transit at lerctr.org Thu Nov 16 14:00:07 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <20001116193308.11923.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 16 Nov 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > If Apple was able to maintain their prices after competitors like Atari > and Commodore introduced cheaper machines with whizzier graphics, that > demonstrates that consumers valued expandability and a broad software > base more than whizzy graphics. Apple also had one other ace in the hole--*schools*! They managed to donate a lot of computers to schools back in the early days, so many families bought Apples so that the kids would have the same programs, disks, etc. both at school and home. Apples were a lot more expensive too ($1000+ rather than $300-500 or less for the C64, Atari, etc.) so many not-too-savvy folks thought they were necessarily "better", I bet...that's probably why Apple kept their prices higher, as a marketing ploy. Also, Atari, in particular, was sort of "typecast" as a video game company, so many folks thought that Atari computers were *only* good for games, not "serious work" like word processing. Of course that was patently untrue, there were good word processors, etc. for the Atari as well. But this type of popular opinion, like most other stereotyping, dies hard... From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Nov 16 14:01:03 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia In-Reply-To: <20001116.133334.-113853.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from Jeffrey l Kaneko at "Nov 16, 2000 01:33:34 pm" Message-ID: <200011162001.eAGK14K07138@bg-tc-ppp606.monmouth.com> > > 1978: As a Junior in HS, I learned BASIC+ on a timeshared > PDP-11 running RSTS, connected via an acoustic modem > to an ASR-33. Pissed off the 'teechur' by using the > 'chad' for confetti. . . > Wow, that's the first time chad's been used in the context of computers this week. Interesting that IBM made those vote tabulating machines used in Fla. 8-) > > 1989: I get fired from my new job as a sysadmin after only 5 > months. Convinced that only masochists (or the mentally ill) > take sysadmin jobs. True... but they told me I'm too normal to be locked up. Thirteen years of sysadmin have kept me in the machine room and away from real people, though. When I was doing Field Service they actually gave me a razor knife, hammer and sharp screwdrivers. (Which I used to torture a TU45 that was torturing me...) Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 16 13:00:44 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Whee! SX-64 Exec found (funny) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, George Rachor wrote: > The last two SX-64's I've found at thift stores don't seem to work. They > have different symptoms so my hope someday is to somehow swap parts > between the two and get one running.... Or just find a few abundant C-64's and sacrifice them for the necessary parts (the innards of the SX-64 are just a C-64). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 16 14:08:29 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... In-Reply-To: Love 'em or hate 'em... (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) References: Message-ID: <14868.16061.87173.780608@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 16, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > Wonder what happened to the swapmeets/hamfests/etc? Hamfests? Hah. Hamfests turned into "new taiwanese PC clone hardware dealer fests" years ago. There are still a few around here (Washington DC area) where there's some actual RADIO (gasp!) gear, but not many. I enjoy them very much, even though they tend to be full of very old people who give me dirty looks because I have long hair. Ahh, passing of judgement, stereotypes...I just LOVE our society. *puke* I, too, am disturbed by eBay's effects on the classic computer world. But for me, around here, I have a very hard time finding ANY older hardware. A pdp11/53 or a MicroVAX is the best one can hope for in this area these days; finding a pdp8/i languishing in a storeroom is nigh impossible here anymore. I buy a LOT of stuff on eBay (Mr. Spreadsheet tells me $70,364.16 in the past 2 years), including a supercomputer and a car, and for all our complaints about it, it has allowed me to get my hands on some stuff that I've been looking for for a VERY long time with no success. Sure, I wind up paying more for it that some people here might consider reasonable...but the alternative, for me, is often *not having it at all*. -Dave McGuire From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Nov 16 14:13:50 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <20001116174847.DBQR19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> from "THETechnoid@home.com" at "Nov 16, 2000 11:08:11 am" Message-ID: <200011162013.eAGKDo507271@bg-tc-ppp606.monmouth.com> > >Man. I haven't had that much fun since the great Computer War of 1985. > >*sighs* > > Me too. Back then though a lot of the folks were just ignorant flamers. > This group is a bit more mature and knowledgable.... ;-) > > Regards, > > Jeff Oh yeah. Since next year marks my 20th year in the business I'm going to revive an old flame or two. Let's try: 1. Unix SUCKS. VMS Rules. 2. If you don't have 36 bits you're not playing with a full DEC. 3. TOPS10 sucks... TOPS20 is better. 4. TOPS10 rules... Let's see TOPS20 or VMS do reall SMP. 5. Mac's and GUI's suck. Command lines are great. 6. If they designed the GUI right you'd never need a command line. 7. 4.2 > SysV. 8. SysV UNIX... Consider it STANDARD. 9. Linux is better than *BSD. 10. Linux is great. Windows sucks. Any votes for computer war of the last 3 or 4 decades? --Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com Thu Nov 16 14:00:20 2000 From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Refurbished VIC-64? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00111614134904.00276@Billbob_linux> Ok, seems like a good time to ask about this, since we're on the 80's 8-bit micro topic. I have a strange machine, and I'm not sure what to make of it. When I bought it (for $2.95) I thought it was a VIC-20, because it is a VIC-20 case. Then I noticed that the expansion connector was not the normal (wide) VIC-20 type, but a C-64 style slot. I also noticed that there was some neat machine work in the expansion port to accomodate the different connector. I opened it up, to discover a complete C-64 motherboard installed, and a big hot-stamped "REFURBISHED" in the bottom of the case (external). The machine runs, and it's a C-64 for sure. Any idea who might have been "refurbishing" VIC-20's into C-64s? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me... -- Bill Layer From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 16 13:09:08 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Gene Buckle wrote: > I miss the really insane BBS battling that went on back then. I'm hoping > that _real_ bulletin board systems will start a slow comeback, but I'm > probably just wishing in the wind. :) Retro-BBSing can only follow retro-computing (perhaps even within the same relative time-frame that BBS' popped-up around computing). Once thing I never managed to do was put up a BBS although I spent years writing my own BBS software. Maybe one day, before I die, I'll actually put it up. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dogas at bellsouth.net Thu Nov 16 14:18:40 2000 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia References: <200011160606.WAA17210@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <03ad01c0500a$6a02fe50$5d794ed8@DOMAIN> pre-78: womb, pong, pinball, calculators... 78: I played alot at Radio Shack breaking out of 'Canon' and getting at the inner goodies of the Trs-80 m1l1 79: Highschool starts.. Science Teacher bought a trs-80 m1l2, I got to borrow it some weekends. Found two Superbrains in the math department and began developing some CAI for some lagging classmates. Started learning z-80 assembler. 80-83: Purchased my first computer: An Atari 800 16K quickly followed by a 32k ramcard and not so quickly a Rana 1000 floppy (kinda flaky but cool) I saw 'De Re Atari' and was in love. Characters could be easily redefined and I also liked the i/o interface possibilities inherent in the 4 joystick ports. I hombrewed a digitizing arm and worked out the trig of a few pivoting arms in software to run it all among many other joyous things. Friends had purchased a CoCo(running os-9 with a c compiler, I loved it), a TRS-80 m1l2, a TRS-80 m3, (another Atarian), a Timex, and an Amiga 1000 (my first lisp...) and we all stretched our machines and software in woderful comradarie. Roamed bbs's far and wide 81: Discovered a CDC-6600 at the end of the phone line, learned compass and a few dear trails through the os and loved talk/confer (early chat) 82: Some basic programming on a IBM System 34 doing simulations for school projects and although my account was initially locked down, SDA provided in a utility, ummm.... modifications to my assigned menu that allowed unordained exploration in ocl. Got my first job on a TRS-80 m2 with the 3 extra drives filling the expanion unit and trs-dos 2 and basic writing job costing software. Woohoo! I still have that machine. 83: The IBM PC hits and the lawyer of my boss with the Model 2 has a few ideas and I'm quickly off and running slinging code for the new PC which intermittantly continues to this day... ;) 84: Did a small stint at DeVry (heh... Had to buy a TRS-80 Pocket Computer for the coursework there) One cool note. One of my profs was John Blankenship, a hell of an Apple II guy. The class was (mostly) working on Apple IIs (in a language Blankeship developed for the II (many graphics extensions)) The rest is pretty much a drug induced blurr of imagery and old computers... ;) Cheers - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 16 12:53:57 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Converting a 220 VT320 to a 120 VT320 In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001115183233.0265a8a0@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Nov 15, 0 06:41:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 923 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001116/8663c099/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 16 13:16:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <20001116181844.EDAC19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> from "THETechnoid@home.com" at Nov 16, 0 01:14:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1496 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001116/a44bd2a3/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 16 13:36:38 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... In-Reply-To: <14868.16061.87173.780608@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > Hamfests? Hah. Hamfests turned into "new taiwanese PC clone hardware > dealer fests" years ago. The Bay Area has two very good ham fests, but of course I don't go to them for the radio gear :) Although I will say there are far fewer interesting (to a computer collector) things to be found than only a couple years ago (and from what I'm told, a few years prior to that was much more interesting). This is a combination of the fact that there are far more computer collectors around these parts these days and there is a lot less stuff coming out of garages, closets and attics. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Thu Nov 16 14:49:23 2000 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Kaypro 4-84 technical info needed Message-ID: Hello all, I have a nicely working Kaypro 4-84, and I was wondering if anyone out there has technical information about the Kaypro 4-84 available. By "technical information" I mean things like schematics, service information (especially floppy drive service info), ROM disassemblies, etc. I would prefer them in electronic form and free :-), but I am willing to pay for photocopying costs and postage for hardcopies. Pointers to any web or FTP sites with this information would be appreciated.... Thanks! Rich B. (P.S. -- I subscribe to the digest, so I can't reply instantly ... ) From lgwalker at look.ca Thu Nov 16 14:51:40 2000 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <20001116181844.EDAC19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> References: Message-ID: <3A14028C.22453.D0DB7A2@localhost> > Well, that's the point with any machine isn't it? > > I wish there was a COCO user on the list to join in. The COCO was one > of the best 8-bits ever made. > > V/R > > Jeff > > There is. Roger Merchberger. Haven't seen him on the list for a while tho. Altho I have 4 COCO's and OS9 I don't qualify. ^^^^^^^^^^CALLING MERCH ^^^^^^ Love the thread guys. ciao larry Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Thu Nov 16 15:02:06 2000 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: MITS/Pertec Icom Attache Message-ID: Hello all, Recently I acquired an ICOM Attache (the one on eBay right now is NOT mine!). I had some questions, and posted in com.os.cpm, since I figured someone would know, even though it was off-topic (sorry :-) ). Since then, through other sources, I got my questions answered, and even found two places to get manuals for this beast (shameless plug: Herb Johnson -- http://pluto.njcc.com/~hjohnson and Steve Shepard -- http://home.earthlink.net/~steveshepard/MITSmanuals/MANUAL.htm). However, since this machine is basically an Altair 8800b Turnkey with a Keyboard and Video Card, I thought I'd share the information here... I will be completely documenting this, and adding it to my web site, but I don't know when that will be... >From the back panel label: PCC Microsystems Division Model #: 600 Part #: 200801 Serial #: 100-000032 115V / 60Hz The backplane is a 10-slot MITS S-100 backplane. The power supply is what appears to be a standard S-100 supply. The cards inside: - MITS 88-VI (RTC), 1975 - MITS 16MCS Static, 1977 - MITS Altair 8800b Turnkey Module, 1976 (contains two 1702A EPROMs -- TURMON and MBL) - MITS 88-4 PIO, contains two MC6820 chips, dated 7646 - MITS 88 UIO, 1977, contains an AY-5-1013A (UART?), and a MC6850 -- Also cables to what is labeled a cassette interface on the back panel. - MITS A/D D/A Converter, 1976 - MITS 8800b CPU Board, contains AMD 8080A dated 7636 - another MITS 16MCS Static, 1977 - Two boards bolted together, labeled "Video Bd. 1" and "Video Bd. 2". Board "2" has a coax cable attached that ends in a BNC connector on the back panel (composite video out?) The internal keyboard also connects via ribbon cable to this assembly, as does the Turnkey Module. Boards and backplane are very clean, no heat spots, no damage that I can tell. Power supply also very clean, and no visible damage. Back Panel contains: 3 25-pin "D" connectors labeled "Analog I/O", "No. 1 I/O", and "No. 2 I/O" 3 jacks labeled "Cassette" and "In", "Out", and "Rem." (remote?) Another 25-pin "D" connector labeled "SIO Port 30" A momentary reset switch, a power switch, power cord receptacle. A BNC connector Rich B. (I subscribe to the digest, so I can't reply instantly...) From elecdata at kcinter.net Thu Nov 16 15:12:18 2000 From: elecdata at kcinter.net (bill claussen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Refurbished VIC-64? References: <00111614134904.00276@Billbob_linux> Message-ID: <3A144DB1.5D203459@kcinter.net> Bill, We were a service center for Commodore till they went under, There were a number of refurbishers of Commodore equipment, some were authorized but most were not to my knowledge. If you have a blue warranty card with the machine, this was done by a company in the midwest, Don't remember their name, but they put these cards in the box and they were not honored by Commodore. I have seen some machines that were modified and stuffed into cases just to get them out the door by the folks refurbishing. I might even have an errata here at the shop somewhere about the refurbishing of the machines from Commodore. Chances are, the board was refurbished but put into a Vic case. Hope that helps Bill (elecdata1) Bill Layer wrote: > Ok, seems like a good time to ask about this, since we're on the 80's 8-bit > micro topic. I have a strange machine, and I'm not sure what to make of it. > When I bought it (for $2.95) I thought it was a VIC-20, because it is a VIC-20 > case. Then I noticed that the expansion connector was not the normal (wide) > VIC-20 type, but a C-64 style slot. I also noticed that there was some > neat machine work in the expansion port to accomodate the different connector. > > I opened it up, to discover a complete C-64 motherboard installed, and a big > hot-stamped "REFURBISHED" in the bottom of the case (external). The machine > runs, and it's a C-64 for sure. > > Any idea who might have been "refurbishing" VIC-20's into C-64s? Doesn't make a > whole lot of sense to me... > > -- > Bill Layer From transit at lerctr.org Thu Nov 16 15:14:50 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: BBS's (was: Re: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Gene Buckle wrote: > > I miss the really insane BBS battling that went on back then. I'm hoping > that _real_ bulletin board systems will start a slow comeback, but I'm > probably just wishing in the wind. :) I remember back in the BBS days, the big quest was to get Usenet access (which was, typically, only available to universities, government, large businesses, etc.) Of course there were a few public dial-in usenet bbs's around...all a long distance call from me :-( Now that everyone can get a free AOL disk and have Usenet access... From transit at lerctr.org Thu Nov 16 15:17:59 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: BBSes (Was Re: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance)) In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001116114115.02900fa0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > What you perhaps fail to realize is the a "BBS" is an expression of an > extremely ancient human trait (sit around and flame each other :-) The dial > in kind of the 70's gave way to vastness of Usenet and are now being > replaced by web sites that behave in much the same way. All we've done is > removed the modem and xmodem and replaced them with web browsers and ftp. A > telnet version of a BBS would be even easier. I think this is sort of > exemplified in what Slashdot does. You can find telnettable BBS's (RBBS, Fido, WWIV, etc.) by searching around. Be sure your Telnet program is ansi-compatible, or you'll miss some R377Y K3WL FX! :-) From ip500 at home.com Thu Nov 16 15:21:08 2000 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Kaypro 4-84 technical info needed References: Message-ID: <3A144FC4.869D5372@home.com> Hi Rich, Sadly not free or electronic BUT....I had the entire KAYPRO Technical Manual [part #1484-D Dec 1984] reproduced in it's original format [spiral bound, color copied blue cover .... about 250 pages total. It has full tech data & repair instructions for: the 2, 2/84, 2X, 4, 4/84, 4X, 10 and ROBIE. Cool book and very useful. It's $24 postpaid in the US. Craig Smith 2845 Greggin Drive NE Roanoke, VA 24012 Rich Beaudry wrote: > > Hello all, > > I have a nicely working Kaypro 4-84, and I was wondering if anyone out there > has technical information about the Kaypro 4-84 available. By "technical > information" I mean things like schematics, service information (especially > floppy drive service info), ROM disassemblies, etc. I would prefer them in > electronic form and free :-), but I am willing to pay for photocopying costs > and postage for hardcopies. > > Pointers to any web or FTP sites with this information would be > appreciated.... > > Thanks! > > Rich B. > > (P.S. -- I subscribe to the digest, so I can't reply instantly ... ) From azog at azog.org Thu Nov 16 15:35:33 2000 From: azog at azog.org (Billy D'Augustine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: VAX emulation Message-ID: <004301c05015$2702bcc0$2001a8c0@my.domain> I was bored, so I was wondering if there are any VAX emulators. I found www.charon-vax.com which emulates a KA630. It'll install from the montagar CD on WinNT and Win2k. It won't emulate an RRD40 on Win9x. I'm going to be running VMS on my laptop :) From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Nov 16 15:52:03 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Whee! SX-64 Exec found (funny) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings Sellam, I did secure a C64 but haven't had a chance to open up anything yet. Thanks for the thoughts! George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, George Rachor wrote: > > > The last two SX-64's I've found at thift stores don't seem to work. They > > have different symptoms so my hope someday is to somehow swap parts > > between the two and get one running.... > > Or just find a few abundant C-64's and sacrifice them for the necessary > parts (the innards of the SX-64 are just a C-64). > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Nov 16 16:16:09 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Nov 15, 2000 05:17:57 pm" Message-ID: <200011162216.OAA27386@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > The only way to get any cross-platform numbers is to go for the lowest > > common denominator because it is impossible to predict how the > > hypothetical target machine is architected. Something like > > Drystones/whetstones, Flops, mbits@sec for hard disks, mpixels@sec for > > video. > > > > FOR X = 1 to 1000000 > LET A = A + ! > NEXT X > > Ahl's simple benchmark is the way to go. 10 rem Ahl's simple benchmark 20 for n = 1 to 100: a = n 30 for i = 1 to 10 40 a = sqr(a): r = r + rnd(1) 50 next i 60 for i = 1 to 10 70 a = a^2: r = r + rnd(1) 80 next i 90 s = s + a: next n 100 print abs (1010-s/5) 110 print abs (1000-r) I remember being pleased that my Epson Equity II came in at 12 seconds in GW-basic. The machine on my desk doesn't have a basic interpreter. Compiled it comes in at about 0.00075 second. Eric From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 16 16:19:18 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:51 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Nov 16, 2000 10:52:59 AM Message-ID: <200011162219.OAA01876@shell1.aracnet.com> > I miss the really insane BBS battling that went on back then. I'm hoping > that _real_ bulletin board systems will start a slow comeback, but I'm > probably just wishing in the wind. :) > > g. Actually I've been wondering for the last couple years if it isn't time to start resurecting the BBS systems of old. The reason I've been wondering about this is the increased concern with security, and people/governments snooping on people. Of course the BBS of the future is likely to have to be accessed dialup and share its data with other nodes over the internet via encrypted links. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 16 16:23:57 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: VAX emulation In-Reply-To: <004301c05015$2702bcc0$2001a8c0@my.domain> from "Billy D'Augustine" at Nov 16, 2000 04:35:33 PM Message-ID: <200011162223.OAA02224@shell1.aracnet.com> > > I was bored, so I was wondering if there are any VAX emulators. I found > > www.charon-vax.com > > which emulates a KA630. It'll install from the montagar CD on WinNT and > Win2k. It won't emulate an RRD40 on Win9x. I'm going to be running VMS on my > laptop :) > > Now if they'd just let hobbyists have ethernet support! You've got to pay something like $2000.00 to get that! Also don't forget you can run Linux on the laptop and run the Linux version of Charon-VAX. Zane From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Nov 16 16:32:04 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <200011162013.eAGKDo507271@bg-tc-ppp606.monmouth.com> from Bill Pechter at "Nov 16, 2000 03:13:50 pm" Message-ID: <200011162232.OAA27722@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Any votes for computer war of the last 3 or 4 decades? Z80 vs 6502. Eric From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 16 16:16:47 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: Rayovac 844B 4.5v alkaline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001116080128.0323abb0@pc> References: <10011152310.ZM924@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: >>> I bought a couple cases (60/case) of Rayovac 844B 4.5v alkaline computer >>> memory batteries, and may grab a couple more if anybody is interested in >> >>Are these the ones used in Mac Plus, etc? > >Yes, which machines use these? Just a few days ago, I found that >the little lithium batteries for a Quadra are $10 at Radio Shack, >but it was for a client. :-) I "guess" this is serious FAQ material, but from a little digging I find Apple has used maybe 5 basic types of memory backup, PRAM, or CMOS battery. Classic macs Battery Type: 4.5V alkaline, #523 This seems often listed as a Polaroid battery. By the SE/30 and maybe earlier, through the quadras Battery Type: 3.6v lithium 1/2 AA, Tadrian TL2150 etc. Around the time of the first performa power macs Battery Type: 4.5V alkaline, Rayovac 840 or 841, square with leads. Mac Portable uses a plain old 9v transistor radio battery. Various portables used special modules etc. Most of the newest macs now use PC style "button" lithium cells of various sizes and types. ******************** So where does that leave the 844B that I now have 360 of? 486 era PCs are almost all compatible with the 844B The 844B is twice as long as the square 840, and has twice the capacity. Rayovac released it as a all purpose replacement for any systems that currently used the same 4 pin connector from 3.6 volts to 9 volts. Not an exact voltage match, but according to Rayovac it works. They come with both sides of a velcro patch, so find a spot, peel off the protective film and stick it on and plug it in. $10 for 3, $20 for 10, plus actual shipping. Buy em while I have them, since the people I am selling cases to I doubt will be offering anything close to these prices. From r.stek at snet.net Thu Nov 16 16:43:57 2000 From: r.stek at snet.net (Robert Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia Message-ID: If you include programming on larger machines "for fun" as contrasted with "working," then (all dates approximate +/- a year!) 1965 - learned 1401 AutoCoder to solve quadratic equations; learned FORTRAN to check for legal moves in checkers 1967 - used FORTRAN to compute the exact answer to 37**37 (don't ask why - it was "fun") 1976 - saw a friend play StarTrek and Adventure on a timeshare system; had seen the article on the Altair, but I wasn't interested in bit-twiddling and switch-flipping at the time. 1977 - purchased a ProcTech Sol-20, cassette based, to learn BASIC and write my own programs. Two weeks to solder - 6 weeks to get working! My wife became a computer widow. 1978 - added a NorthStar SSSD drive (90K storage!) - needed a Univ. of Waterloo CS grad to help me do the I/O routines! Co-founded Regina Owners of Microcomputer Systems (ROMS). 1979 - got into CP/M as well as N* DOS, added a N* Horizon and Hazeltine 1500 terminal. Also added 8" disk drives which I had my parents smuggle into Canada on their vacation so I could avoid the import tax! Started attending WCCF in SF. Started writing articles for SOLUS News. Became a Z80 / CP/M "snob" - the Apple wasn't a "serious" computer, so I wasn't interested in meeting Wozniak when I had a chance. Wrote a program to test for ESP on the Radio Shack Model I - became one of the first programs to be rejected by Wayne Green's Kilobaud program publishing venture! 1980 - helped found the International NorthStar User's Association (INSUA) in SF. (trivia - John Dvorak was another founding member. He sold N* software mail order thru his "newsletter" The Software Review). REALLY got into BASIC to create real estate multiple listing index program for local realtor. 1981 - founded Interactive Systems, Inc. in Regina, Saskatchewan with 2 partners. Sold small business systems - NorthStar and KayPro. Paid $1333 for a 10MB HD sub-system. Wrote articles for INSUA. Taught multiple "Intoduction to Personal Computing" classes through University extension division. 1982 - Got a Morrow Decision I (which could read both N* hard-sectored formats as well as soft sectored formats). Wrote articles for Sol Libes' MicroSystems magazine. Taught "Introduction to Data Processing" for U of R CS Department. 1983 - Created Docu-Power - a generic boilerplate document processor which worked with any wordprocessor. Became Canadian distributor for Micro-MUMPS for Disk Walters (at UC Davis ?) 1984 - Moved back to the US and reluctantly bought a PC clone, converted Docu-Power to MS-DOS (which added scores of sales to already impressive sales in the low 100's - that's # of units, not $'s). Hooked up with Steve Ciarcia through the Connecticut Computer Club and became an "Ask BYTE" researcher - Steve paid club members $5 for each letter they could answer. Wrote the manual for Steve's Home Control System. 1985 - Reluctantly bought an AT from IBM (but only because I finagled a UCONN faculty discount through a prof I knew there). Co-authored (under Ciarcia's name) the HAL-4 brainwave processor construction articles in BYTE. ... and after that it starts to get too modern. But micros's have always been a passion - even though I am a clinincal psychologist by training, and I work in program evaluation in health care. Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 16 17:03:41 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... In-Reply-To: <14868.16061.87173.780608@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Love 'em or hate 'em... (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Message-ID: >> Wonder what happened to the swapmeets/hamfests/etc? > > Hamfests? Hah. Hamfests turned into "new taiwanese PC clone hardware >dealer fests" years ago. Not so in SoCal, the four regional hamfests, Santee, Fontana, Pomona, and TRW, all are old style drop the tailgate, empty the trunk events. Real "dealers" are less than 50% of the crowd and a good half of them are radio related or tools. Computer fairs are the only all dealer events, and we even still have quite a few local swapmeets that are at least 25 to 50% casual sellers. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Nov 16 17:28:28 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia Message-ID: <20001116.172828.-329617.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:43:57 -0500 "Robert Stek" writes: > ... and after that it starts to get too modern. But micros's have > always been a passion - even though I am a clinincal psychologist by > training, and I work in program evaluation in health care. Gee Bob, with the ESP program, and subsequent brainwave business, I thought fer sure you'd be a para-psychologist! :^) Who you gonna call . . . ? ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 16 17:34:05 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... In-Reply-To: Re: Love 'em or hate 'em... (Mike Ford) References: Message-ID: <14868.28397.751447.280234@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 16, Mike Ford wrote: > >> Wonder what happened to the swapmeets/hamfests/etc? > > > > Hamfests? Hah. Hamfests turned into "new taiwanese PC clone hardware > >dealer fests" years ago. > > Not so in SoCal, the four regional hamfests, Santee, Fontana, Pomona, and > TRW, all are old style drop the tailgate, empty the trunk events. Real > "dealers" are less than 50% of the crowd and a good half of them are radio > related or tools. > > Computer fairs are the only all dealer events, and we even still have quite > a few local swapmeets that are at least 25 to 50% casual sellers. Jeeze, I'm jealous. Here on the east coast things are much more bleak hamfest-wise. -Dave McGuire From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Nov 16 15:52:36 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001116154205.0196ea80@208.226.86.10> Approximately: 1972 - Was allowed to use a PDP-8/E while waiting for my Mom to take me home from school (phone company). Started writing a very long FOCAL program while reading the book. 1973 - Discovered that my new high school has a computer room consisting of two ASR-33's with modems that can dial into a Univac system running BASIC. 1976 - Make "real" money writing a COBOL program for the teachers union on UNLV's CDC mainframe. 1976 - Desperately want an Altair but setting for building the ELF out of Popular Electronics for $99. 1977 - Make more money and live away from home at IBM's "summer intern" program. Get to play with a 370 and learn BAL. 1977 - Finally save up enough money to buy a four board system from the Digital Group (no chassis though, it runs on a board) Have to send the CPU board to them to get it working. :-( 1979 - In college I spring for a Quest Super-ELF and discover that there is some field around me the forces one of my computers to always be broken. Also in college I become a systems programmer for an engineering lab and get to hack on PDP-11's (RSC), DEC-10's (TENEX, TOPS-20, TOPS-10, ITS) and a VAXen (11/730 free gift from DEC :-) 1983 - Graduate from college and work for Intel. Convince my wife if I just had a decent system I would be happy. Splurge on a use Cromemco System III 1984 - Get the Amiga bug and spend many years enjoying some really nice software. 1986 - Join Sun Microsystems and start hacking UNIX full time. 1998 - Am given a PDP-8 (think "Gee, its not hard to store 1 old computer.") 1999 - Get a couple of MicroVAX II's and go to my first VCF. Uh-oh, this is serious. Present - surrounded by old computers I find now that I have to be very selective in what I get. Enjoy hacking UNIX on VAXen, still trying to get a decent RSX-11M setup on an 11. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 16 17:47:59 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <200011162013.eAGKDo507271@bg-tc-ppp606.monmouth.com> Message-ID: > Any votes for computer war of the last 3 or 4 decades? > 1980's: Commodore 64 vs Every other 8 bit machine made. g. From tarsi at binhost.com Wed Nov 15 18:11:49 2000 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: Osbourne, Value? In-Reply-To: <200011162223.OAA02224@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <004301c05015$2702bcc0$2001a8c0@my.domain> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001115181051.00b0a150@binhost.com> I have the opportunity to obtain an Osbourne (no, I don't know what model, etc). What is a ballpark figure for the value of this? I don't have one and am unaware of details on them. Also, any caveats to watch for? thanks! Tarsi 210 210-------------210-------------------210 VISIT OrangeCAM! http://orangenet.dhs.org/~cam/ tarsi@binhost.com http://orangenet.dhs.org http://tarsi.binhost.com http://www.foreverbeyond.org 210-------------210-------------------210 From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Nov 16 18:09:57 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: Kaypro 4-84 technical info needed In-Reply-To: <3A144FC4.869D5372@home.com> Message-ID: <000201c0502a$b84d5c20$d99e72d1@cobweb.net> -> Hi Rich, -> Sadly not free or electronic BUT....I had the entire KAYPRO Technical -> Manual [part #1484-D Dec 1984] reproduced in it's original format -> [spiral bound, color copied blue cover .... about 250 pages total. It -> has full tech data & repair instructions for: the 2, 2/84, -> 2X, 4, 4/84, -> 4X, 10 and ROBIE. Cool book and very useful. It's $24 postpaid in the -> US. -> Craig Smith -> 2845 Greggin Drive NE -> Roanoke, VA 24012 And well worth it, Rich. I use mine all the time. Bill From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Nov 16 18:13:14 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <200011162219.OAA01876@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 02:19:18PM -0800 References: <200011162219.OAA01876@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20001116161314.A2067@loomcom.com> On Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 02:19:18PM -0800, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > I miss the really insane BBS battling that went on back then. I'm hoping > > that _real_ bulletin board systems will start a slow comeback, but I'm > > probably just wishing in the wind. :) > > > > g. > > Actually I've been wondering for the last couple years if it isn't time to > start resurecting the BBS systems of old. The reason I've been wondering > about this is the increased concern with security, and people/governments > snooping on people. > > Of course the BBS of the future is likely to have to be accessed dialup and > share its data with other nodes over the internet via encrypted links. Speaking of resurrecting old communities... Does anyone have any experience dealing with Tymnet? They're still around, zombie-like and living off of government contracts, but I've been thinking how neat it would be to finally bring my RetroNET idea to life and provide dial-up through Tymnet. My plans for RetroNET have always been to form a separate, non-internet-connected network of hobbyists, retrocomputists, wackos, and misfits who want a place something like the timesharing resources of old. It would consist of VAXen and DECstations and even PCs running more modern Unix-like OSes, communicating over UUCP (since none of us could possibly afford dedicated leased lines). E-mail, Retronet News (think: Usenet without the Usenet), and general dorkiness. And really there's no good reason not to have it connected to the Internet, except for the "purity" factor, and the neatness factor. C'mon, think how cool it would be to have a "retronet!host!username" email address that only other COOL, ELITE DORKS can talk to! Ironically, though I want it not to be connected to the Internet, I've already reserved RetroNET.net and RetroNET.org. Hey, might as well at least have one multi-homed host to let the SLOBBERING PROLES know how neat and SUPERIOR we are. Anyway, just a thought. And to make it real, I'd need a bunch of people who wanted to be RetroNET nodes, and some convenient way to allow people to dial up. Tymnet sprang instantly to mind (primarily because they're still EVERYWHERE, and still allow 300bps dial up! My portable Silent 700 works! Yeah baby!) I'll bet they're expensive, though. Still... anyone want to be a RetroNET node? :) > Zane -Seth From elvey at hal.com Thu Nov 16 18:20:48 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200011170020.QAA16285@civic.hal.com> ~1969 Play with programmable Monroe calculator. CRT display with about 100 steps. 1969-1975 See the world in the Navy. Got to watch some blinking lights and once did a boot load from tape. I don't recall the computer but it was in two modules that opened like a clam shell. ~1975 see articles in Pop. Elect. about building computers. Bought a TI 50 calculator. ~1978 Bought a used Poly88. I spend many an hour fiddling with this including a few circuit improvements. ~1979 Went to work for Intel. I was responsible for test of UPP and the controller cards for M2FM drives. ~1982 Bought H89. I thought the price of their OS was bad so I didn't buy it. I hand entered a Forth and wrote my own disk block I/O. ~1985 PC ------------ . . . 1995 Started working for a company that designs 64 bit SPARC processors for high end systems. Some place in there, I started, actively rather than passively, collecting old computers. And worse, I started collection pinball machine as well. Help! Dwight All dates are fudged slightly to protect the guilty. The facts are all true. From kd7bcy at teleport.com Thu Nov 16 18:39:43 2000 From: kd7bcy at teleport.com (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <200011162219.OAA01876@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <200011162219.OAA01876@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: I miss DJO... My favorite BBS in Portland. I've noticed that Computer Bits hasn't had a BBS listing in a LONG time, and for a long time before they stopped it was down to a handful. I REALLY miss that full page listing of BBS's in the Portland/Vancouver area. I'm not sure if it's the right name, but the Werehouse was the last good BBS. There HAS been a sort of revival to the BBS scene, but in web form. UBB is the best web board software I've ever seen. My favorite site is bladeforums.com. And really the only true BBS I've seen keep up with the times is FirstClass. Truly a wonderful BBS system. The Portland Macintosh Users Group has an FC BBS that is online, and I think there are still several dial-up only FC boards in the area. OneNet used to be a huge network of FC boards, but it has almost died now. FileNet was another good one and I'm not sure if it's still up or not, but PMUG doesn't have access anymore since the node we hooked up through went down - gee, must be two years at least already! But yes, DJO was my favorite. They had an internet gateway for at least a year before they went down, and I had my first email address through that board. Really stretching the memory, but I think it was macman@djo.com. Such wonderful memories of DJO, web access through the library's UNIX system(I still think Lynx is the best browser ever, and before I figured that out I was a killer with gopher) and hacking into AOL with versions 2.7 and earlier. I think 2.5 and 2.7 were the best for hacking - mostly because there were readily available hacks for them. You could get on for 2-3 days before they noticed and deleted the account... Ah, the good old days... When a Macintosh IIvx with 5MB RAM could do almost anything... -- /-----------------------------------------------\ | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ kd7bcy@teleport.com | | http://www.geocities.com/jrollins.geo/ | | List admin for orham and ham-mac at www.qth.net | | KD7BCY pdxham at www.egroups.com | \-----------------------------------------------/ From gregorym at cadvision.com Thu Nov 16 18:38:15 2000 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: Osbourne, Value? References: <004301c05015$2702bcc0$2001a8c0@my.domain> <4.3.2.7.2.20001115181051.00b0a150@binhost.com> Message-ID: <019001c0502e$ac852ae0$0200a8c0@marvin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tarsi" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 5:11 PM Subject: Osbourne, Value? > I have the opportunity to obtain an Osbourne ... > What is a ballpark figure for the value of this? I don't have one and am > unaware of details on them. Also, any caveats to watch for? I recently paid $30 Cdn (about $20 USD) for a grey and blue Osborne 1, with some manuals and a built in modem, but no software. I believe that the earliest versions had a different colour scheme (grey overall?), but I don't remember what it was. A datum from the Great White North. Cheers, Mark. From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 16 18:52:24 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip In-Reply-To: <20001116193647.11984.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001116080724.0322a670@pc> <5.0.0.25.2.20001110104744.02ab2eb0@binhost.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20001116080724.0322a670@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001116195224.0074fe10@earthlink.net> At 07:36 PM 11/16/00 -0000, you wrote: >Atari Games was around for quite a few more years, though they >eventually got acquired by Williams, then Midway. Wasn't Atari Games, aka Time-Warner Interactive, a seperate entity for quite a while prior to the JTS merger? I don't believe they ever fell under the Tremeil umbrella with Atari Corp. did they? Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ From elvey at hal.com Thu Nov 16 18:56:29 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: Cheapest IMSAI I've seen In-Reply-To: <200011170020.QAA16285@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <200011170056.QAA16345@civic.hal.com> Hi Watch ebay, a IMSAI just went for $560. This is a real low ball. Maybe the prices on ebay is following the stock market?? Dwight From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 16 19:48:12 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "Nov 16, 0 03:47:59 pm" Message-ID: <200011170148.RAA15186@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Any votes for computer war of the last 3 or 4 decades? > 1980's: Commodore 64 vs Every other 8 bit machine made. Hey, everybody's target is the king. ;-( -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Murphy's Law is recursive. Washing your car to make it rain doesn't work. -- From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 16 19:43:42 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: Cheapest IMSAI I've seen In-Reply-To: <200011170056.QAA16345@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Nov 16, 2000 04:56:29 PM Message-ID: <200011170143.RAA24732@shell1.aracnet.com> > Watch ebay, a IMSAI just went for $560. This > is a real low ball. Maybe the prices on ebay is > following the stock market?? > Dwight > Makes sense. A lot of the people that were paying outrageous amounts are probably feeling the sting of the stock market at the moment. Zane From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 16 19:56:12 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: NextStep/OpenStep on PC? In-Reply-To: <20001116194824.12208.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Nov 16, 0 07:48:24 pm" Message-ID: <200011170156.RAA19716@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > But it is a huge improvement, and the best part is > > that finally, there is a Mac OS with memory protection. > > For me, this was the weakest point of MacOS, in fact > > a most serious flaw. > > But it's NOT a MacOS with memory protection. It's a Unix with > memory protection, and a bag on the side to run old programs > (poorly). Yes, this is true. Old MacOS apps don't really get the benefit of all the new kernel offers. At least you can reboot the Classic environment if one of them brings it down, but then that brings all the Classic apps down. On the other hand, the old MacOS architecture is so long in the tooth I think a drastic measure like this is totally necessary. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous. ---------------------------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 16 20:00:29 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "Nov 16, 0 10:52:59 am" Message-ID: <200011170200.SAA20304@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Yea, there is the Turbo 816 upgrade for the Atari too. It never went very > > far though. In 816 mode compatability suffers badly. > I'm pretty sure CMD is still manufacturing the SuperCPU modules. I don't > know if there are any compatibility issues with it however, since I've > never owned one. Few, actually. It runs in 6502 emulation most of the time, but the timing really isn't a problem because it talks to the bus at the regular 1MHz and also keeps IRQs at the regular 60Hz frequency. So a lot of software, amazingly, works unmodified, and there's a lot of software now that is being patched to run native. And CMD does still make them. http://www.cmdweb.com/ -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- If you're not very clever, you should be conciliatory. -- Benjamin Disraeli From kdavis at ndx.net Thu Nov 16 19:55:41 2000 From: kdavis at ndx.net (Kirk B. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: Cheapest IMSAI I've seen In-Reply-To: <200011170056.QAA16345@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Nov 16, 2000 04:56:29 PM Message-ID: <200011170155.eAH1tfL19629@bender.ndx.net> I've been following the IMSAI's on eBay for a few months. I few good ones (-w- Drives software & manuals) went for >$2000. This caused a lot of sellers to put them up. There's been 3 or 4 available to auction on since then and prices have been dropping. It could just be a spike in the (supply) market :-) Kirk > > Hi > Watch ebay, a IMSAI just went for $560. This > is a real low ball. Maybe the prices on ebay is > following the stock market?? > Dwight > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 16 20:01:37 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Nov 16, 0 09:07:33 am" Message-ID: <200011170201.SAA17756@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > However, the Commodore Kernal (note spelling; Kernal is actually an acronym) > > And it stands for...? That's the part I can't remember precisely, but I believe it is "Keyboard Read and Link" or some such. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- If you cannot convince them, confuse them. -- Harry S Truman --------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 16 20:08:08 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: New IIci In-Reply-To: <20001116163405.60287.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Nov 16, 0 08:34:05 am" Message-ID: <200011170208.SAA19956@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > Like I said, it has 8mb of RAM. I have a few random 30-pin PC SIMMs > > >laying around. Can I typically use these? What should I watch for? > > > > I think you need true-parity simms for that. > > Macs do not require parity. I have used 1Mb and 4Mb PC SIMMs in my MacIIci > with no problems. Speaking of which, I have more MacII hardware than I > will _ever_ use. If anyone is looking for IIci parts, please write me. *Except* the Apple Network Server, which can use parity (but to be sure does not require it). I should know, since I just dropped $450 on 128MB for stockholm. (Ouch.) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Why, I'd horsewhip you if I had a horse! -- Groucho Marx ------------------- From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 16 20:12:08 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001116211208.0122fbc0@earthlink.net> At 11:09 AM 11/16/00 -0800, you wrote: >Once thing I never managed to do was put up a BBS although I spent years >writing my own BBS software. Maybe one day, before I die, I'll actually >put it up. I ran my own BBS, and in fact still have some of the different 'work' disks I used in testing setups, but never attempted to write my own BBS program. I did write a simple terminal program in BASIC though once when I didn't have a real one to work with! It would only do 40 columns, even though the display would do 80, but it worked all the same. I was much the BBS addict in the 80's as I am with the 'Net today I guess... Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 16 20:27:48 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <20001116174847.DBQR19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> from "THETechnoid@home.com" at "Nov 16, 0 11:08:11 am" Message-ID: <200011170227.SAA17746@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Maybe I did get that from some 80's propoganda. Sorry. The drive was > still Godaweful slow. Not because it is serial either. There was > something badly wrong with thier design. Admittedly, the 1541 was fairly flawed in a lot of ways. The 1571 was much, much better, and the v3.1 1571 I think is a fabulous drive. MFM and GCR compatibility, fast serial, true double-sided. Nice stuff. > >To get high speed, high capacity drives for the C-64, you just added a > >commonly available IEEE-488 interface. This gives you a fast parallel > >interface for using a myriad of faster and far higher capacity drives. > >SFD1001 and 8050 come to mind right off. > > That was the 1mb floppy right? I didn't know that ran on a different buss. The SFD was a 488 device, yes. But the 800K 1581 runs on the regular IEC, just to prove that storage space is no object, and so do the 1GB+ CMD drives. > Not by magic. By machine language calls to the drive's rom. This is not > a complete dos, but a kernel you can make calls to. Imagine CP/M. Then > subtract the command interpreter. Sure, all the calls are there but it's > vastly more difficult to use.... If you go ahead and write a ccp you lose > compatability because of the ram it takes up. I don't know if there is a > cartridge-based DOS for the C=. Spartados X is a 64k cart that bitbangs > the ram/rom to avoid bumping memlo. It's not really machine calls, though you can do it. It's more like a simple shell. FastLoad provides you a > command, and something like >s0:x scratches file X. If you want to call a machine code routine, you can do that, but the interface isn't quite that blunt. This is all part of the Commodore philosophy to offload everything to the peripheral. See, when a Commodore freak hears DOS, we think the drive's internal software, not a menu or an interface. The DOS wedge which most fastloaders and utility cartridges implement, or a clone thereof, is just an interface to it and the simple command "shell" set it understands. There are higher level menus but I'm not really fond of any of them. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- People who buy computers from TV commercials *deserve* the Pentium. -------- From marvin at rain.org Thu Nov 16 20:28:20 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: Pickles & Trout References: <004301c05015$2702bcc0$2001a8c0@my.domain> <4.3.2.7.2.20001115181051.00b0a150@binhost.com> <019001c0502e$ac852ae0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3A1497C4.5EB951F4@rain.org> In talking to Dana Trout today, got some interesting stories. For those that don't already know, the origin of the name, Pickles & Trout, came from a day when both Dana Trout and Greg Pickles were in a bank getting some travelers checks to attend an auction. The details are a bit fuzzy, but Dana was talking with someone in the bank line and his and Gregs last names came up. At the point that Pickles & Trout had exited his line and made it over to the line Greg was in, they knew they had to do something. And the result was the company name, Pickles & Trout. They had hired a guy to field phone calls, and one day Dana got asked by this new guy to talk to a very irrate customer. After taking the call, the customer thought they were being played around with and didn't like it one bit. Why? They had called Pickles & Trout for some help and got someone calling themselves Herring on the line :). It hadn't occurred to any of them when this new guy was hired, his last name would cause any type of ruckus like this. Later on while talking to this guy, he said he had cut off his beard for the interview to try and make a good impression. Since both Dana and Greg had beards, it was kind of funny! From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Nov 16 20:35:16 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia Message-ID: <20001117023516.42249.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Foust wrote: > At 08:30 AM 11/16/00 -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >1986, I put up UUCP on an 11/730 at work and discover Usenet. > >1987, I run UUCP on the Amiga 1000 at home > > 'uucp' on an Amiga in 1987? Really? > > - John I think so. Maybe it was 1988. I remember for certain that I started when I still had an MFM disk. By 1990, I had a Starboard and a 200M SCSI drive ($375, used). I had to help debug the package because I was first talking to some sort of SystemV machine running HDB UUCP and there were problems establishing the start of the conversation at the "Shere" stage of the protocol. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 16 20:41:05 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: NextStep/OpenStep on PC? In-Reply-To: <200011170156.RAA19716@stockholm.ptloma.edu> (message from Cameron Kaiser on Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:56:12 -0800 (PST)) References: <200011170156.RAA19716@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20001117024105.19310.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > But it's NOT a MacOS with memory protection. It's a Unix with > memory protection, and a bag on the side to run old programs > (poorly). Cameron wrote: > Yes, this is true. Old MacOS apps don't really get the benefit of all the > new kernel offers. At least you can reboot the Classic environment if one of > them brings it down, but then that brings all the Classic apps down. > > On the other hand, the old MacOS architecture is so long in the tooth I think > a drastic measure like this is totally necessary. I agree with your last point. In fact, I think they should have done it much earlier, like when they transitioned to the PowerPC. Better late than never, I suppose. Engineers I know are not very happy with the OS X though. They tell me it doesn't do a very good job of being either Unix or a Mac. When the edict comes down from the top that everyone *must* use OS X, there are going to be many unhappy engineers. I haven't tried it myself so I can't comment. From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 15 19:04:41 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: e-Nauseated (off-topic a tad) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <643.355T2050T1245703optimus@canit.se> Kevin L. Anderson skrev: >Seriously, it seems that every word is now becoming >an e-version of itself in this new e-commerce >world. I personally find it e-nauseating for several >reasons, none of which, e-politely, I will e-describe >here. Dictionaries will now need to be twice as >big, for every word and its e-word. The worst thing is, Zilog are now making an e-Z80. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. A Spanish MSX Group "Matra" visited to this Fair. I lent Spanish stand to them. They showed and did Promotion play of SEX BOMB BUNNY. And this Game has tema song of Majingar-Z! Why they know Japanese TV animation? K. Ikeda, MSX-Print From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 16 21:34:18 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: NextStep/OpenStep on PC? In-Reply-To: <20001117024105.19310.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 17, 2000 02:41:05 AM Message-ID: <200011170334.TAA32287@shell1.aracnet.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Engineers I know are not very happy with the OS X though. They tell me > it doesn't do a very good job of being either Unix or a Mac. When the > edict comes down from the top that everyone *must* use OS X, there are > going to be many unhappy engineers. > > I haven't tried it myself so I can't comment. I think it has two main problems, the biggest being it is to flashy, but also the problem that it's got UNIX underneath, but doesn't included X-Windows. Something along the lines of the old A/UX would have been nice. My first exposure to Mac's was a Mac IIfx that Honeywell morphed into a workstation running A/UX 2.0. The flashy problem has partially been addressed by allowing you to change the button colours from 'aqua' to 'charcoal'. What ticks me off is that the classic Mac and the NeXT interfaces were very sleek. The new interface is far from what I'd consider sleek! As for having tried it, I have, but not extensively. If I could find time to do more than just play with it, it might grow on me. As it stands, it's made a bad initial impression on me to the extent that Motif and CDE seem preferable! Zane From rcini at optonline.net Thu Nov 16 22:42:30 2000 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: AppleTalk over NT Message-ID: Hello, all: Does anyone have any experience with Mac-NT compatibility? I want the Mac to have access to my NT server so that I can move large files across my home network which is decidedly Windows-based. Here's the setup. NT4 Server has the Services for Macintosh installed. The NT configuration is set for routing, seeding the network, and a node range of 11-254. The IIci has an Asante NuBus Ethernet card which passes internal diagnostics and indicates "link". So, I know the connection to my hub is good. I have the AppleShare 3.0.1 client installed. The ci runs System 7.0.1. Re-reading the NT docs, I'm supposed to see the AppleShare icon in the Chooser, which I don't. I only see AppleTalk. Hmmm... I configured the MacTCP to point to my firewall for Internet access. Maybe this should point to the NT Server? It's a private subnet configuration where the NT server is for file and print sharing only; the Internet connection is through a broadband firewall/router. Any thoughts? Rich Rich Cini ClubWin! Group 1 Collector of Classic Computers Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /*****************************************/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Nov 16 23:23:04 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: Cheapest IMSAI I've seen In-Reply-To: <200011170056.QAA16345@civic.hal.com> References: <200011170020.QAA16285@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001116210200.00a380b0@208.226.86.10> Heh, Thank you to whomever sent the link out to the Salon piece on Ebay. That was superb. Becoming an Ebay seller/user should be required for anyone going to business school for an MBA. Students can get a _much_ better for what a "free" market is like by spending a couple of semesters using Ebay than they can with nearly any amount of book learning. Ebay prices come down for the very simple reason that the "supply" is coming in line with the "demand." People who want an IMSAI at any cost have theirs, people who think it would be cool and have some disposable income have theirs too, and now all that's left is us "cheap skates" who have to balance the cost of an IMSAI with rent and food and storage. I think the stock market is more of the same, people have decided that stocks (like IMSAIs) aren't going to double in value every six months and so being picky and finding a good one makes all the difference in the world. --Chuck At 04:56 PM 11/16/00 -0800, you wrote: >Hi > Watch ebay, a IMSAI just went for $560. This >is a real low ball. Maybe the prices on ebay is >following the stock market?? >Dwight From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 16 23:36:15 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: NextStep/OpenStep on PC? In-Reply-To: <200011170334.TAA32287@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "Nov 16, 0 07:34:18 pm" Message-ID: <200011170536.VAA15168@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > The flashy problem has partially been addressed by allowing you to change > the button colours from 'aqua' to 'charcoal'. What ticks me off is that the > classic Mac and the NeXT interfaces were very sleek. The new interface is > far from what I'd consider sleek! Really? I found it quite compelling, especially the rasterised icons and the transparency effects, and the "warping" window animation. XWindows is IMHO antiquated by comparison: I've never liked GNOME or KDE, for example. Give me a text login any day compared to those, but the OS X interface is to me clean and sophisticated. > As for having tried it, I have, but not extensively. If I could find time > to do more than just play with it, it might grow on me. As it stands, it's > made a bad initial impression on me to the extent that Motif and CDE seem > preferable! I got a lot of time to play with it on a G4, and I really was blown away from the first minute. Maybe I'm just easily impressed, but I think it's a nice Unix system (well, okay, I'm happy with anything that runs Perl, and it runs Perl :-), and I dig the interface. For me, the sour note is compatibility, but I suppose a break from the past was needed sometime. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- TODAY'S DUMB TRUE HEADLINE: Enfield Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide -- From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Nov 17 00:30:42 2000 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:13:14 -0800 . <20001116161314.A2067@loomcom.com> Message-ID: In message <20001116161314.A2067@loomcom.com>, Seth writes: >My plans for RetroNET have always been to form a separate, >non-internet-connected network of hobbyists, retrocomputists, wackos, >and misfits who want a place something like the timesharing resources >of old. It would consist of VAXen and DECstations and even PCs running >more modern Unix-like OSes, communicating over UUCP (since none of >us could possibly afford dedicated leased lines). E-mail, Retronet >News (think: Usenet without the Usenet), and general dorkiness. >And really there's no good reason not to have it connected to the >Internet, except for the "purity" factor, and the neatness factor. >C'mon, think how cool it would be to have a "retronet!host!username" >email address that only other COOL, ELITE DORKS can talk to! > >Still... anyone want to be a RetroNET node? :) I've often thought the same thing, though I never made any actual moves in that direction. The one thing that's always troubled me is that we'd most likely be pretty spread out so most of the connections would be long distance calls. Than again, if the traffic weren't all that large a few minutes of long distance each night might not be all that bad. Brian From mbg at world.std.com Fri Nov 17 00:51:40 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... References: Message-ID: <200011170651.BAA08926@world.std.com> > I, too, am disturbed by eBay's effects on the classic computer world. >But for me, around here, I have a very hard time finding ANY older >hardware. A pdp11/53 or a MicroVAX is the best one can hope for in >this area these days; finding a pdp8/i languishing in a storeroom is >nigh impossible here anymore. I buy a LOT of stuff on eBay >(Mr. Spreadsheet tells me $70,364.16 in the past 2 years), including a >supercomputer and a car, and for all our complaints about it, it has >allowed me to get my hands on some stuff that I've been looking for >for a VERY long time with no success. Sure, I wind up paying more for >it that some people here might consider reasonable...but the alternative, >for me, is often *not having it at all*. Excuse me? $70k spent on stuff from ebay in two years? Some of us don't have the budget for more than a few hundred a year for stuff... And the fact that you pay more than is reasonable (and it appears you have the deep pockets to do that) has a direct affect on the prices of things for the rest of us... No wonder prices on ebay are unreal. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Nov 17 00:53:07 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: BBS's References: Message-ID: <008901c05063$0bd3fb00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 5:00 PM Subject: Re: BBS's > In message <20001116161314.A2067@loomcom.com>, Seth writes: > >My plans for RetroNET have always been to form a separate, > >non-internet-connected network of hobbyists, retrocomputists, wackos, > >and misfits who want a place something like the timesharing resources > >of old. Nice concept. > >It would consist of VAXen and DECstations and even PCs running > >more modern Unix-like OSes, communicating over UUCP (since none of > >us could possibly afford dedicated leased lines). E-mail, Retronet > >News (think: Usenet without the Usenet), and general dorkiness. Keep goin.... > >And really there's no good reason not to have it connected to the > >Internet, except for the "purity" factor, and the neatness factor. You're right. No good reason. In fact, it's a big problem if you are outside the US, and probably a bit iffy if you are spread widely across it.. > >C'mon, think how cool it would be to have a "retronet!host!username" > >email address that only other COOL, ELITE DORKS can talk to! > > > >Still... anyone want to be a RetroNET node? :) Yes. But perhaps we should bend the net to our will. > I've often thought the same thing, though I never made > any actual moves in that direction. The one thing that's > always troubled me is that we'd most likely be pretty > spread out so most of the connections would be long distance > calls. Than again, if the traffic weren't all that large > a few minutes of long distance each night might not be all > that bad. IF it were across an ocean or two, on anything like a regular basis, it gets bad pretty quick. Trust me on this. I used to run a BBS back in the dark (2400baud) ages. Ahh. Frontdoor 1.99c. Remote Access. Quickbbs. Masquerade. Opus. External protocols, echomail, netmail. Sigh. Seriously, even interstate or any form of trunk (long distance) calls soon added up if you were moving even fairly modest amounts of news (echomail) and email (netmail). Why not have two bob each way? Would seem to me possible to setup up some sort of VPN via the net, so you can dialin to your ISP and then tie in to RetroNet in some secure manner, heck could even have an encrypted link or something. Best of both worlds, and it makes it possible to have a GLOBAL RetroNet, using the internet as BBS's used the phone network. Hey you VMS bigots, how bout some Decnet over IP? Endless possibilities. just my antipodean 2c worth.... or about 1c US currently :^( Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ: 1970476 P.S. It occurs to me that the 'two bob each way' may be a little obscure for our US friends. It comes from the practice, by small-time gamblers on horse races, of putting 'two bob' (ie two shillings, or 20c these days) on the horse 'each way' meaning 20c for a win, 20c for a place, to maximise your chance of winning something. A popular pastime by housewives and the like, especially with small offcourse bookmakers (still a few left here - last place in South Australia where they are still legal) A bit like 'have your cake and eat it too'. Perhaps that would have been a better choice. Hmm, yes. Make it so. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 17 00:44:06 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: Osbourne, Value? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001115181051.00b0a150@binhost.com> References: <200011162223.OAA02224@shell1.aracnet.com> <004301c05015$2702bcc0$2001a8c0@my.domain> Message-ID: >I have the opportunity to obtain an Osbourne (no, I don't know what model, >etc). > >What is a ballpark figure for the value of this? I don't have one and am >unaware of details on them. Also, any caveats to watch for? Until you know which model and the condition its immpossible to guess at value, beyond a $0 to maybe $50 type of wild ass guess. Or am I mixing Osborne up with Kaypro? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 17 00:40:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <20001116161314.A2067@loomcom.com> References: <200011162219.OAA01876@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 02:19:18PM -0800 <200011162219.OAA01876@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >Anyway, just a thought. And to make it real, I'd need a bunch of >people who wanted to be RetroNET nodes, and some convenient way to >allow people to dial up. Tymnet sprang instantly to mind (primarily >because they're still EVERYWHERE, and still allow 300bps dial up! >My portable Silent 700 works! Yeah baby!) > >I'll bet they're expensive, though. > >Still... anyone want to be a RetroNET node? :) Why pay twice for dialup access? I already pay $40/month for a nice fast connection to the NET, everything else is easily connnected to the NET, why duplicate the dialup access? Make a VPN, virtual private network, then concentrate on front end and back end tools to make it fun. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 17 01:21:12 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... In-Reply-To: <200011170651.BAA08926@world.std.com> References: Message-ID: >Excuse me? $70k spent on stuff from ebay in two years? Some of >us don't have the budget for more than a few hundred a year for >stuff... Money is welfare for the hardware poor. From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Nov 17 01:37:42 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 10:40:31PM -0800 References: <200011162219.OAA01876@shell1.aracnet.com>; <200011162219.OAA01876@shell1.aracnet.com> <20001116161314.A2067@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20001116233742.A3877@loomcom.com> On Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 10:40:31PM -0800, Mike Ford wrote: > >Anyway, just a thought. And to make it real, I'd need a bunch of > >people who wanted to be RetroNET nodes, and some convenient way to > >allow people to dial up. Tymnet sprang instantly to mind (primarily > >because they're still EVERYWHERE, and still allow 300bps dial up! > >My portable Silent 700 works! Yeah baby!) > > > >I'll bet they're expensive, though. > > > >Still... anyone want to be a RetroNET node? :) > > Why pay twice for dialup access? I already pay $40/month for a nice fast > connection to the NET, everything else is easily connnected to the NET, why > duplicate the dialup access? My mind drifted to Tymnet primarily because they're no cost to the caller -- their cost is only to the parties who talk to Tymnet's X.25 network, the people you dial up to. In the Olden Days, you could call Tymnet to get access to your AOL or Delphi account. In fact I can still dial up Tymnet all I want for free -- I just have nowhere to connect after that! It's a moot point though, it's almost certainly too expensive for me to actually sign up for an X.25 account with Tymnet. Just a wild fantasy of what to do if I were filthy rich. > Make a VPN, virtual private network, then concentrate on front end and back > end tools to make it fun. No no no... it just doesn't feel right. There's something missing. I mean, why not just have a bunch of hosts all connected to the public Internet? Boooring! That's so 1995! We're talking 1982 here. I'm not opposed _a priori_ to the idea of a RetroNET<->Internet gateway, though, something to allow email to be exchanged between the two. But really, the idea is "If you don't have a RetroNET node near you, either (1) Become a RetroNET node and exchange UUCP with other RetroNET nodes at 2:00 AM local time, or (2) Call long distance to log in, or (3) Convince someone local to you to be a RetroNET node." I mean, it's just all in fun. It's not like we'd be denying people their rights if they couldn't afford the long distance charges. Tough. I suppose we _could_ have one bastion host be a RetroNET<->Internet gateway that offers public telnet accounts. But... but... UUCP is half the fun!! -Seth From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri Nov 17 01:40:20 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <200011162013.eAGKDo507271@bg-tc-ppp606.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at Nov 16, 2000 03:13:50 PM Message-ID: <200011170740.XAA11705@eskimo.com> Bill Pechter wrote: > Any votes for computer war of the last 3 or 4 decades? Hex vs. octal. Whether to number the bits from the most significant end or the least. Endianness in general. Whether floating point is the greatest thing since binary or the work of the devil. ASCII vs EBCDIC (vs. old ASCII vs. Murray vs. FIELDATA vs. CDC display code vs. non-Murray 5-bit codes vs. variations on EBCDIC vs. ...). Which terminal is best. These wars are mostly won now, except maybe for endianness, but you did say 3 or 4 decades! (In the case of floating point, it's more like 5.) -- Derek From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Nov 17 01:42:30 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... References: <200011170651.BAA08926@world.std.com> Message-ID: <00a301c05069$f2502260$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Megan" To: Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 5:21 PM Subject: Re: Love 'em or hate 'em... > Excuse me? $70k spent on stuff from ebay in two years? Some of > us don't have the budget for more than a few hundred a year for > stuff... That's 3 times my annual income. Before taxes. Uh, hang on, US$ to AU$, make that 6 times... > And the fact that you pay more than is reasonable (and it appears > you have the deep pockets to do that) has a direct affect on the > prices of things for the rest of us... No wonder prices on ebay > are unreal. I begrudge no-one their money, I'm sure you are earning/earned it and deserve to enjoy it, but it does make it hard for those with lesser means to get something through auction. If I knew you were bidding for something, I wouldn't bother, because I'd probably undershoot your opening offer. Still, it's the same old story everywhere, fish aren't aware of water I guess.. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Nov 17 02:05:21 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: BBS's References: <200011162219.OAA01876@shell1.aracnet.com>; <200011162219.OAA01876@shell1.aracnet.com> <20001116161314.A2067@loomcom.com> <20001116233742.A3877@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <00bc01c0506d$22793500$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Seth" To: Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 6:07 PM Subject: Re: BBS's > My mind drifted to Tymnet primarily because they're no cost to the > caller -- their cost is only to the parties who talk to Tymnet's X.25 > network, the people you dial up to. In the Olden Days, you could > call Tymnet to get access to your AOL or Delphi account. In fact I > can still dial up Tymnet all I want for free -- I just have nowhere > to connect after that! Sounds a bit like AUSPAC. Shudder. > > Make a VPN, virtual private network, then concentrate on front end and back > > end tools to make it fun. Yes, concur. > No no no... it just doesn't feel right. There's something missing. > I mean, why not just have a bunch of hosts all connected to the > public Internet? Boooring! That's so 1995! We're talking 1982 here. If you just want a dialup thingy for those in your area, probably ok, if you have people close enough not to mind the 30c per local call. But if you want this to be a more widespread experience, (and I think that's essential if you want the diversity) then some gatewaying via the low cost internet 'wormhole' is in order. FWIW, Ham Radio has done something like that for years, they have specific stations that have Packet to Internet gateways (called, hey, hey, wormholes) that do pretty much what I have in mind. > I'm not opposed _a priori_ to the idea of a RetroNET<->Internet > gateway, though, something to allow email to be exchanged between > the two. But really, the idea is "If you don't have a RetroNET node > near you, either (1) Become a RetroNET node and exchange UUCP with > other RetroNET nodes at 2:00 AM local time, or (2) Call long distance > to log in, or (3) Convince someone local to you to be a RetroNET node." You forgot to add "In the continental United States". I couldn't do it that way from here. > I mean, it's just all in fun. It's not like we'd be denying people > their rights if they couldn't afford the long distance charges. Tough. Even tougher if they can't afford the transoceanic ones? ;^) > I suppose we _could_ have one bastion host be a RetroNET<->Internet > gateway that offers public telnet accounts. One or two would be all that's necessary to allow a more widespread enjoyment of 'classic networking' (for want of a better description). > But... but... UUCP is > half the fun!! Perhaps, but not across the ocean at 2400 baud. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ: 1970476 From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 17 01:54:49 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: Osbourne, Value? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001115181051.00b0a150@binhost.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Tarsi wrote: > I have the opportunity to obtain an Osbourne (no, I don't know what model, > etc). > > What is a ballpark figure for the value of this? I don't have one and am > unaware of details on them. Also, any caveats to watch for? Anywhere from free to $50 for an original, and free to $20 for later models (these are quite common actually). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Nov 17 03:02:58 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <00bc01c0506d$22793500$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>; from geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 06:35:21PM +1030 References: <200011162219.OAA01876@shell1.aracnet.com>; <200011162219.OAA01876@shell1.aracnet.com> <20001116161314.A2067@loomcom.com> <20001116233742.A3877@loomcom.com> <00bc01c0506d$22793500$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <20001117010258.A4275@loomcom.com> On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 06:35:21PM +1030, Geoff Roberts wrote: > If you just want a dialup thingy for those in your area, probably ok, if > you have people close enough not to mind the 30c per local call. Ah, I keep forgetting how lucky we Yanks are to live in the United States -- at least, in terms of telecommunications costs. Local calls here are invariably free of charge, included in a flat monthly fee for telephone service. Only long-distance requires a per-minute or per-call fee. > > I mean, it's just all in fun. It's not like we'd be denying people > > their rights if they couldn't afford the long distance charges. > Tough. > > Even tougher if they can't afford the transoceanic ones? ;^) Yup ;) Not my problem. View it as a perfect opportunity to form an ARCH RIVAL to RetroNET. Call it... AuNET or something. We can have vicious flamewars about whose is better, and eventually form a backbone cabal. > > But... but... UUCP is > > half the fun!! > > Perhaps, but not across the ocean at 2400 baud. You're simply not being adventurous enough ;) Next Up: Tin-Can-and-Two-Strings-Net, dammit! BWAHAHAHA! > Cheers -Seth From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 17 02:03:11 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 blstuart@bellsouth.net wrote: > I've often thought the same thing, though I never made > any actual moves in that direction. The one thing that's > always troubled me is that we'd most likely be pretty > spread out so most of the connections would be long distance > calls. Than again, if the traffic weren't all that large > a few minutes of long distance each night might not be all > that bad. US interstate rates can be $0.05/minute or even less if you find a good deal. US to Europe can be done for $0.10/minute or less. It's a much different telecom climate than in the 80s. Go for it, SethDood! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 17 02:59:16 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: Lexbook wanted (was: Looking to buy) In-Reply-To: <39F55DD8.21136.1E778573@localhost> References: <380854780.972343279500.JavaMail.root@web621-wrb.mail.com> Message-ID: >John Sandel (johnsandel@earthlink.net) wrote: > >> I'm looking to buy a Lexbook MB-10, an 8088-based subnotebook made by >>Lexmark (the IBM spinoff) & discontinued in about 1994-95. >> If you have one for sale or any information on Lexbooks, please let me >>know @ johnsandel@earthlink.net. > >I hope someone can help him out...John's a former Lexbook MB10 owner & user >who's looking to replace his now-gone old Lexbook. He did a great >job of digging into Lexmark a few years ago, to finally find someone >who'd admit that Lexmark *made* notebooks! > >For people wondering what a Lexbook MB-10 is, pictures and a bit >of info are at: >http://www.sieler.com/lexbook/ >Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com >www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler Looking over the pictures on the link it sure reminds me a LOT of my Lexicomp LC 8600 (which is a fair amount smaller). I wonder if the actual manufacturer wasn't Sinolog for the Lexbook as well? all the info I could find at the moment below. Comp.:SINOLOG CO. LTD. Address: 9F,No.14,Lane 83,Kuang Fu Rd. Sec.1, Addres2: San Chung, Taipei Country: Taiwan Tel: 886-2-999-0277 Fax: 886-2-995-9791 Activities: Manufacturer, Exporter Prodlines: Portable Systems Brandname: "Lexicomp" Ceo: H.C. Lee Contact: Kathy Lin Capitals: NT$ 20,000,000. Yrsales: Market: Europe 5% N.America 20% Asia 75% Dateestab: July 1990 Factorysz: 17,073 Sq.Ft. Numberempl: 150 Remarks1: A pioneer of electronic handheld dictionaries. Developed the Remarks2: Lexicomp LC-8600 palmtop PC which was rated the "Best of Taipei Remarks3: Computer Show" June 92 by Byte Magazine. From jate at uwasa.fi Fri Nov 17 05:16:23 2000 From: jate at uwasa.fi (Jarkko Hermanni Teppo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:52 2005 Subject: HP Questions Message-ID: <20001117131623.F4735@loisto.uwasa.fi> Hello! I have a couple of HP related questions. I started thinking about these while I was scanning all the 9000/500 docs that I have and in HP 27110B HP-IB card manuals I saw a sentence similar to this "..supported in all HP computers with CIO bus..". 1. Which machines had the CIO bus ? I know of 9K/550, 520 and at least some version of the bus in some 800-series machines. 2. I know about 200/300/400/500/700/800-series but what is 9000/600 which I've seen in a couple of manuals. 3. Is the HP 7970 tape drive vacuum column or one of these newer streaming devices (like the 7974A). And extra bonus-points for the person who recognizes the app in the cover of the HP 9000 550 manual at http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/cover.gif And a couple of low-quality "recognize the peripheral"-pics at: http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/uudet/ (none of those are mine, btw.) Particularly cipher.jpg, HP2000[12].jpg, nauha.jpg, hp3kcons.jpg. TIA, -- Jarkko Teppo | Lahjoita HP 7933:n levypakka hyv??n kotiin! jate@uwasa.fi | :wq! | From ncherry at home.net Fri Nov 17 07:10:05 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) References: <20001116195242.12254.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3A152E2D.27C517A2@home.net> Eric Smith wrote: > > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > The fun with the Apple ][ was making it do things the other computers > > could do, (although not nearly as adequately, but still), without all the > > adjunct hardware :) > > Time for one of my favorite quotes: > > And in those days many a clever programmer derived an immense > intellectual satisfaction from the cunning tricks by means of which > he contrived to squeeze the impossible into the constraints of his > equipment. > -- Edsger W. Dijkstra, "The Humble Programmer", > 1972 ACM Turing Award Lecture > > He was writing about the very early days of computer programming, when > every computer was unique. In these days of bloatware, there are very > few programmers that still practice the art of achieving the maximum > results from the minimum system (hardware and software). But those of > us that do so *still* derive "an immense intellectual satisfaction". :-) > > Eric Hey there are still those of use who have managed to write an asm prog for a PIC based Cheese box in less than 50 bytes! -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From ncherry at home.net Fri Nov 17 07:14:57 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) References: <200011162013.eAGKDo507271@bg-tc-ppp606.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3A152F51.B8E6EB42@home.net> Bill Pechter wrote: > Any votes for computer war of the last 3 or 4 decades? Emacs is better than vi! (This one goes way back!). -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From kebabthesheep at yahoo.com Fri Nov 17 07:56:29 2000 From: kebabthesheep at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?kebabthesheep?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z Message-ID: <20001117135629.20578.qmail@web1604.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, as is customary for many a mailing list, I should introduce myself first. My name is David Rowntree, I am a systems engineer, working for Philips Semiconductors, based in Southampton, UK. My interests centre mainly on UNIX systems, but I like anything computational and old. I recently found my Research Machines 380Z in a pile of junk, and got interested in it again. For those who don't know, its a Z80 based CP/M machine sold in the UK, mainly to schools and other educational establishments. Mine came from Imperial College, London, where I studied for my Meng in Electronic engineering. The box in question is a RML-380Z-D model, with dual 5 1/4" drives, and I think, 32K RAM. It has two video boards (I believe this is the hires option) and an additional ram board(cpu board with most bits removed) an analog i/o card, and seems to have firmware 'COS4.2A' The date of the box is '83, and is complete with its keyboard, and even the dust cover! Unfortunantly - NO SOFTWARE AT ALL. Not even cp/m :( I know next to nothing about this box, so my query: Does anybody have the system disks? How about documentation of the firmware? I've found various bits of cp/m source, but nothing specific to the 380z. I believe it ran cpm2. One other point - I believe you hit 'b' to bootstrap the floppy - when I do this there is NO disk activity (even with a floppy in the drive) I've tried both drives, and both cable positions. The drive psu gives stable volts, so that's not the problem. I'm sure it should do something! There is an LED on the floppy controller, it flashes with a kind of 'heart beat' pattern i.e. Flash-flash--pause--flash-flash--pause etc. Anybody know if this is normal? You guys are possibly my last hope - I've spent a total of over 20 hours scouring the web for info, and have come up with very little. I'd like to get as much on this box as possible, for preservation reasons - and so I can build a website about it. Many thanks in advance for anybody who can help me out! Dave. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ From jpdavis at gorge.net Fri Nov 17 07:36:46 2000 From: jpdavis at gorge.net (JimD.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) References: <200011162013.eAGKDo507271@bg-tc-ppp606.monmouth.com> <3A152F51.B8E6EB42@home.net> Message-ID: <3A15346E.7C249F69@gorge.net> I have this little war going on at my place of employment. I don't like emacs and vi is a confortable temporary solution while I wait for the crisp license to arrive. Jim Davis. Neil Cherry wrote: > > Bill Pechter wrote: > > > Any votes for computer war of the last 3 or 4 decades? > > Emacs is better than vi! (This one goes way back!). > > -- > Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net > http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) > http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) > http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Nov 17 07:41:08 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) Message-ID: <20001117134108.97270.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> --- Neil Cherry wrote: > > He was writing about the very early days of computer programming, when > > every computer was unique. In these days of bloatware, there are very > > few programmers that still practice the art of achieving the maximum > > results from the minimum system (hardware and software). But those of > > us that do so *still* derive "an immense intellectual satisfaction". :-) > > > > Eric > > Hey there are still those of use who have managed to write an asm prog > for a PIC based Cheese box in less than 50 bytes! What kind of cheese? :-) I was a participant in an official contest a few years ago - write the smallest useful program for the Amiga in C... My two submissions were well under .5 KB. One reduced the WorkBench color depth from two bitplanes to one (so that text could scroll twice as fast), the other peeked at the processor status bits in a system structure and printed out what processor and co-processor were installed. The asm version of that one was just over 200 bytes, the C version was under 256 bytes. The trick - no startup code linked in (which is where argv/argc are populated) and no libraries. The printf that was used was the tinyprintf in ROM - integer, character and string qualifiers only. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ From ncherry at home.net Fri Nov 17 08:07:51 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) References: <200011162013.eAGKDo507271@bg-tc-ppp606.monmouth.com> <3A152F51.B8E6EB42@home.net> <3A15346E.7C249F69@gorge.net> Message-ID: <3A153BB7.F20D2D58@home.net> "JimD." wrote: > > I have this little war going on at my place of employment. > I don't like emacs and vi is a confortable temporary solution > while I wait for the crisp license to arrive. > Jim Davis. > > Neil Cherry wrote: > > > > Bill Pechter wrote: > > > > > Any votes for computer war of the last 3 or 4 decades? > > > > Emacs is better than vi! (This one goes way back!). I got started with emacs back in 81 when I was using the Atari Macro Assembler package. It has the same key strokes for many of it's commands. I was also using vi for on the schools Unix machine. I found vi's modes to be annoying but later found it to be a good editor when dialed into a customer network (I'll post my history later). I use emacs for most of programming, I even wrote a diary program in lisp. So I like emacs because it's the editor I've used the longest and I have on most of my systems. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From ncherry at home.net Fri Nov 17 08:13:18 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) References: <20001117134108.97270.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3A153CFE.DAA1527E@home.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Neil Cherry wrote: > > > He was writing about the very early days of computer programming, when > > > every computer was unique. In these days of bloatware, there are very > > > few programmers that still practice the art of achieving the maximum > > > results from the minimum system (hardware and software). But those of > > > us that do so *still* derive "an immense intellectual satisfaction". :-) > > > > > > Eric > > > > Hey there are still those of use who have managed to write an asm prog > > for a PIC based Cheese box in less than 50 bytes! > > What kind of cheese? :-) Velveeta of course! :-) > I was a participant in an official contest a few years ago - write the > smallest useful program for the Amiga in C... My two submissions were > well under .5 KB. One reduced the WorkBench color depth from two bitplanes > to one (so that text could scroll twice as fast), the other peeked at the > processor status bits in a system structure and printed out what processor > and co-processor were installed. The asm version of that one was just over > 200 bytes, the C version was under 256 bytes. The trick - no startup code > linked in (which is where argv/argc are populated) and no libraries. The > printf that was used was the tinyprintf in ROM - integer, character and > string qualifiers only. I got spoiled with builtin rom routines on most of my computers (not the PC/XT/AT/whatever family). The PIC doesn't have any of those. I still like assembly language, it has it's place as does the other 2 dozen languages I know (now if I could only speak English). -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From jpdavis at gorge.net Fri Nov 17 08:15:50 2000 From: jpdavis at gorge.net (JimD.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Counting cycles, was:( Re: Processor balance ... ) References: <20001116195242.12254.qmail@brouhaha.com> <3A152E2D.27C517A2@home.net> Message-ID: <3A153D96.D39F1B62@gorge.net> Hi, Those who think that instruction cycle time counting, memory and i/o latency considerations are an anachronism haven't be exposed to processors like the IXP-1200 from intel. These little monsters force the programmer to consider the timing of every instruction and the delays inherent in most memory accesses. This chip has 7 processors. A strongArm core and 6 microengines, each capable of running 4 threads, with 1K of instruction memory / microengine. It drives gigibit I/O for internet and telecom applications. Here I am, 15 Years later, counting cycles and instructions again. Just like the good old days. Jim Davis. Neil Cherry wrote: > > Eric Smith wrote: > > > > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > And in those days many a clever programmer derived an immense > > intellectual satisfaction from the cunning tricks by means of which > > he contrived to squeeze the impossible into the constraints of his > > equipment. > > -- Edsger W. Dijkstra, "The Humble Programmer", > > 1972 ACM Turing Award Lecture > > > > He was writing about the very early days of computer programming, when > > every computer was unique. In these days of bloatware, there are very > > few programmers that still practice the art of achieving the maximum > > results from the minimum system (hardware and software). But those of > > us that do so *still* derive "an immense intellectual satisfaction". :-) > > > > Eric > > Hey there are still those of use who have managed to write an asm prog > for a PIC based Cheese box in less than 50 bytes! > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Nov 17 08:47:48 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Anyone have an RK8E to sell? Message-ID: <20001117144748.95008.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> Chuck, Just to let you know, I haven't shipped the RX8E yet. It's in a static bag and I'm collecting peanuts, etc., for shipping. I expect it to go out by Tuesday. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ From bills at adrenaline.com Fri Nov 17 09:09:35 2000 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <200011170740.XAA11705@eskimo.com> Message-ID: > > Any votes for computer war of the last 3 or 4 decades? > Whether to number the bits from the most significant end or the least. > Endianness in general. Ohhhh!!!! Don't start me!!!! (Shuffles away, kicking at the ground, mumbling incoherently). From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Nov 17 09:31:03 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Anyone have an RK8E to sell? Message-ID: <20001117153103.66128.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: Whoops! Meant that to go privately. Anyway, while I have all of your attention on the topic of RK8Es, I did happen to go look at my RKV11D and verified that there is an M993 card at the end of it, the same as what the RK8E needs. I've read recently about folks thinking of hand- crufting cables and if that's the case, I'd be glad to photograph/scan my paddle card if that would help anybody. Of note is that on the M99E card, there are traces, etc., for a single DIP part and some associated discrete parts (resistors?) but they are unpopulated. Would this have anything to do with the differences between some of the drive implementations, especially as regards to unit select lines? Cheers, -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 17 09:25:52 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > >Still... anyone want to be a RetroNET node? :) > > Why pay twice for dialup access? I already pay $40/month for a nice fast > connection to the NET, everything else is easily connnected to the NET, why > duplicate the dialup access? > > Make a VPN, virtual private network, then concentrate on front end and back > end tools to make it fun. I agree. I've got a 24/7 net link and it would be fun to use it for something other than serving web pages and playing Air Warrior. :) g. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Nov 17 09:54:19 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Old Zenith luggable ZFL-181-92 Message-ID: <20001117155419.6336.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> Back in 1998, groberts@mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) wrote: > i have recently been given an old Zenith laptop model ZFL-181-92. batteries > discharged or dead. no power supply. i would like information if anyone > can help me on what type of power supply to use. the label on the bottom > of the systems says: DC 12 V, Plug-in power supply Model 150-272. I myself am in the process of returning one of these to active use and am in search of some hardware docs for it. I've been using mine with a Xircom PE3 and the packet driver with Kermit as a TCP/IP terminal. I would like to self-power the PE3, but there is no PS/2 keyboard connector to plug the power cord into. There is this external floppy drive connector on the other end of the laptop. Is there a pinout somewhere for that? Additionally, I checked, and there _is_ enough room to stuff the PE3 behind the modem door, so I could tap power off the internal modem connector if I had a pinout for _that_ as well. Conversely, I *might* be able to wire in a tiny network card that could handle 8 bits if the right sort of signals were present on the modem connector. Anyone have any idea what goes there? Thanks, -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 17 09:58:48 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... In-Reply-To: Re: Love 'em or hate 'em... (Megan) References: <200011170651.BAA08926@world.std.com> Message-ID: <14869.21944.983476.892840@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 17, Megan wrote: > Excuse me? $70k spent on stuff from ebay in two years? Some of You seem to be assuming that anything I buy on eBay is "playtoy stuff" that comes out of the "playtoy budget". The car I bought on eBay I would have otherwise bought from a dealer or an individual outside of eBay. As it turns out I got a pretty good deal. Let's not overlook the fact that some of it is stuff that got resold for major profit, and a lot of it directly supports my work. Sure, that $70k is a solid one-third of my income. But when you consider that I buy nearly everything except groceries, gasoline, household utilities, and medical care via eBay most of the time, that's not a very big number. The notion that EVERYTHING that gets sold on eBay get sold for more than it's worth is incorrect. Also incorrect is the notion that everything that gets sold on eBay is for hobby or play activities. Further incorrect is the (seemingly prevalent) idea that all the computer-related activities of the folks on this list are pure hobbyist activities and are thus expendable as "play", even with our older machines. > us don't have the budget for more than a few hundred a year for > stuff... Ok, so that means I'm not supposed to buy the things I want to buy? See above. Add your "automotive" budget to your "playtoy" budget. Then add in your "equipment to support work for customers" budget. Does that affect those numbers? > And the fact that you pay more than is reasonable (and it appears > you have the deep pockets to do that) has a direct affect on the > prices of things for the rest of us... No wonder prices on ebay > are unreal. Oh yeah, it's ALL MY FAULT. Shoot me now. Many of the people I frequently bid against (to astronomical numbers) are on this list, and they have MUCH deeper pockets than I. I have an income that is reasonable for a person with my level of experience, which is no less or no greater than most of the folks here. I'm very lucky that I currently live alone, have no children (yet), and have a girlfriend that doesn't presume to tell me what I can do with the money that I make. Since that will probably all change within the next couple of years, I'm getting my "goodies" purchases done now, so I won't have to fight for them later...the Crays, the electron microscope, stuff like that. Sheesh. This is the LAST place I'd expect to get criticized about obtaining and hacking on cool stuff. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 17 10:01:13 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... In-Reply-To: Re: Love 'em or hate 'em... (Geoff Roberts) References: <200011170651.BAA08926@world.std.com> <00a301c05069$f2502260$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <14869.22089.535980.144790@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 17, Geoff Roberts wrote: > If I knew you were bidding for something, I wouldn't bother, because I'd > probably undershoot > your opening offer. > Still, it's the same old story everywhere, fish aren't aware of water I > guess.. You don't need to do that, though, Geoff. I don't always recognize folks' names on eBay, but I generally do back off when someone I know from here is bidding on something. Though Al Kossow and I have gotten into a few good bidding wars...Hi Al! ;) So no, I'm not the root of all evil because I make money and spend it on cool stuff. Sheesh. -Dave McGuire From LFessen106 at aol.com Fri Nov 17 10:06:57 2000 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Parody Song. Message-ID: A Better Model ============== Sung to the tune of "A Modern Major-General" by Gilbert and Sullivan I've built a better model than the one at Data General For data bases vegetable, animal, and mineral My OS handles CPUs with multiplexed duality; My PL/1 compiler shows impressive functionality. My storage system's better than magnetic core polarity, You never have to bother checking out a bit for parity; There isn't any reason to install non-static floor matting; My disk drive has capacity for variable formatting. Chorus: His disk drive has capacity for variable formatting, His disk drive has capacity for variable formatting, His disk drive has capacity for variable format-formatting. I feel compelled to mention what I know to be a gloating point: There's lots of room in memory for variables floating-point, Which shows for input vegetable, animal, and mineral I've built a better model than the one at Data General. Cho: Which shows for input vegetable, animal, and mineral He's built a better model than the one at Data General. The IBM new home computer's nothing more than germinal; At Prime they still have trouble with an interactive terminal; While Tandy's done a lousy job with operations Boolean, At Wang the byte capacity's too small to fit a coolie in. Intel's mid-year finances are something of the trouble sort; The Timex Sinclar crashes when you implement a bubble sort. All DEC investors find they haven't spent their money well; And need I even mention Nixdorf, Univac, or Honeywell? Cho: And need he even mention Nixdorf, Univac, or Honeywell? And need he even mention Nixdorf, Univac, or Honeywell? And need he even mention Nixdorf, Univac, or Honey-Honeywell? By striving to eliminate all source code that's repetitive I've brought my benchmark standings to results that are competitive. In short, for input vegetable, animal, and mineral I've built a better model than the one at Data General. Cho: In short for input vegetable, animal, and mineral He's built a better model than the one at Data General. In fact when I've a floppy of a maximum diameter, When I can call a subroutine of infinite parameter, When I can point to registers and keep their current map around, And when I can prevent the need for mystifying wraparound, When I can update record blocks with minimum of suffering, And when I can afford to use a hundred K for buffering, When I've performed a matrix sort and tested the addition rate, You'll marvel at the speed of my asynchronous transmission rate. Cho: You'll marvel at the speed of his asynchronous transmission rate, You'll marvel at the speed of his asynchronous transmission rate, You'll marvel at the speed of his asynchronous transmission-mission rate. Though all my better programs that self-reference recursively Have only been obtained through expert spying, done subversively, But still for input vegetable, animal, and mineral, I've built a better model than the one at Data General. Cho: But still for input vegetable, animal, and mineral, He's built a better model than the one at Data General. From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri Nov 17 10:21:58 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... In-Reply-To: <14869.21944.983476.892840@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: Ebay... an unconfirmed rumor.... I had heard that for the year 1999 5% of United Parcel Service's residential business was due to Ebay. Love or hate... That is a substantial sum. George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX From transit at lerctr.org Fri Nov 17 10:35:51 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <200011170740.XAA11705@eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Derek Peschel wrote: > Which terminal is best. When I was in college, We liked Telerays, and hated the Perkins-Elmer Fox's. Of course now, it's an all-VTX00 world... From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 17 10:44:54 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... In-Reply-To: Re: Love 'em or hate 'em... (George Rachor) References: <14869.21944.983476.892840@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14869.24710.827970.535197@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 17, George Rachor wrote: > Ebay... an unconfirmed rumor.... > > I had heard that for the year 1999 5% of United Parcel Service's > residential business was due to Ebay. > > Love or hate... That is a substantial sum. Wow...that is *frightening*. I live a few miles from a UPS depot...every day, if I drive past there anytime in the morning, I see a veritable ARMY of brown trucks just pouring out of that facility. Those people move A LOT of packages. I mean, it should be obvious, they're a shipping company. But I had no idea of the true scale we're talking about until I saw those hundreds of trucks pulling out one morning. 5% of that is ONE HUGE PILE of stuff. -Dave McGuire From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Nov 17 11:25:13 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <3A153BB7.F20D2D58@home.net> from Neil Cherry at "Nov 17, 0 09:07:51 am" Message-ID: <200011171725.JAA10042@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I was also using vi for on the schools Unix machine. I found vi's modes > to be annoying but later found it to be a good editor when dialed into > a customer network (I'll post my history later). I use emacs for most of > programming, I even wrote a diary program in lisp. So I like emacs because > it's the editor I've used the longest and I have on most of my systems. I like vi because it's quick -- especially when I used a C64 at 2400bps before I got my ACIA accelerator -- and it's practically a new religion because it's so terse and quirky. And I *love* quirky. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Apathetic dyslexic agnostic: "I don't care if there's a dog" --------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Nov 17 11:25:42 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at "Nov 17, 0 10:35:51 am" Message-ID: <200011171725.JAA17740@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Derek Peschel wrote: > > > Which terminal is best. > > When I was in college, We liked Telerays, and hated the Perkins-Elmer > Fox's. ADM3A was kind of fun. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegcaps awound? --------------------------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 17 11:11:04 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Which terminal is best. > > When I was in college, We liked Telerays, and hated the Perkins-Elmer > Fox's. > How about a GE TermiNET 300? *gd&r* g. From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 17 10:43:23 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <20001117134108.97270.qmail@web9501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was a participant in an official contest a few years ago - write the > smallest useful program for the Amiga in C... My two submissions were The Apple-heads will remember the one-line and two-line program contests that Nibble magazine ran each month. I never got around to submitting mine but I wrote quite a few, including a two-line space invader type game where you had a base canon you could move horizontally on the bottom of the screen and two alien ships coming in at random altitudes at the top from either side of the screen. It kept score and everything. Two lines. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From THETechnoid at home.com Fri Nov 17 11:56:04 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <20001116161314.A2067@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20001117174806.POLV16459.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Maybe not too expensive. Back in the day, Tymenet was touted by all my friends as the solution to all thier LD telephone bill woes. It wasn't quite as fast as standard lines though. I never used it because back then I was a phreaker and never had to pay ld.... Eventually I got a blanket party from the FBI. That wasn't fun at all and taught me to walk the straight and narrow (telecom-wise). Regards, Jeff In <20001116161314.A2067@loomcom.com>, on 11/17/00 at 12:56 PM, Seth said: >On Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 02:19:18PM -0800, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > >I miss the really insane BBS battling that went on back then. I'm hoping >> > that _real_ bulletin board systems will start a slow comeback, but I'm >> > probably just wishing in the wind. :) >> > >> > g. >> >> Actually I've been wondering for the last couple years if it isn't time to >> start resurecting the BBS systems of old. The reason I've been wondering >> about this is the increased concern with security, and people/governments >> snooping on people. >> >> Of course the BBS of the future is likely to have to be accessed dialup and >> share its data with other nodes over the internet via encrypted links. >Speaking of resurrecting old communities... >Does anyone have any experience dealing with Tymnet? They're still >around, zombie-like and living off of government contracts, but I've >been thinking how neat it would be to finally bring my RetroNET idea to >life and provide dial-up through Tymnet. >My plans for RetroNET have always been to form a separate, >non-internet-connected network of hobbyists, retrocomputists, wackos, >and misfits who want a place something like the timesharing resources of >old. It would consist of VAXen and DECstations and even PCs running more >modern Unix-like OSes, communicating over UUCP (since none of us could >possibly afford dedicated leased lines). E-mail, Retronet News (think: >Usenet without the Usenet), and general dorkiness. And really there's no >good reason not to have it connected to the Internet, except for the >"purity" factor, and the neatness factor. C'mon, think how cool it would >be to have a "retronet!host!username" email address that only other COOL, >ELITE DORKS can talk to! >Ironically, though I want it not to be connected to the Internet, I've >already reserved RetroNET.net and RetroNET.org. Hey, might as well at >least have one multi-homed host to let the SLOBBERING PROLES know how >neat and SUPERIOR we are. >Anyway, just a thought. And to make it real, I'd need a bunch of people >who wanted to be RetroNET nodes, and some convenient way to allow people >to dial up. Tymnet sprang instantly to mind (primarily because they're >still EVERYWHERE, and still allow 300bps dial up! My portable Silent 700 >works! Yeah baby!) >I'll bet they're expensive, though. >Still... anyone want to be a RetroNET node? :) >> Zane >-Seth -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From THETechnoid at home.com Fri Nov 17 11:59:48 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Nat router for VMS VAX In-Reply-To: <004301c05015$2702bcc0$2001a8c0@my.domain> Message-ID: <20001117175030.PQIV16459.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> I've been looking hard for a way to make my Vaxstation run as the nat router for my home/work network. Right now the router is running on my main machine under OS/2 Warp 4. Anyone know of a Nat router package for VMS thats free? I know I know... Also, has anyone seen Apache for VMS vax? There is a port for Alpha but not vax. Thanks,, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From THETechnoid at home.com Fri Nov 17 12:01:58 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: VAX emulation In-Reply-To: <200011162223.OAA02224@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20001117175302.PSLV16459.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> I've got my hobbyist-licensed VaxStation running on my ethernet network. It surfs and everything. I don't know what you mean. I didn't do anything extraordinary to make it work. I don't know enough about VMS to do anything extraordinary... ;-0 Regards, Jeff >Now if they'd just let hobbyists have ethernet support! You've got to >pay something like $2000.00 to get that! > Zane -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri Nov 17 11:51:10 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <200011171725.JAA10042@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Nov 17, 2000 09:25:13 AM Message-ID: <200011171751.JAA19869@eskimo.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I like vi because it's quick -- especially when I used a C64 at 2400bps before > I got my ACIA accelerator -- and it's practically a new religion because > it's so terse and quirky. And I *love* quirky. :-) Although vi beats modern EMACS for quirkiness, the original EMACS (written in TECO, not LISP) beats vi, at least once you start doing programming. -- Derek From transit at lerctr.org Fri Nov 17 11:56:03 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > Which terminal is best. > > > > When I was in college, We liked Telerays, and hated the Perkins-Elmer > > Fox's. > > > How about a GE TermiNET 300? *gd&r* Was that a hard copy? The only HC's we had were Decwriters, and an old daisywheel Diablo tucked away in a special room (you had to pay $2/hr extra to use it) We also had a few "dumb" (not cursor addressable) terminals of various types, mostly for people using systems such as WYLBUR and JCL. Of course, Unix VI or any other program requiring cursor addressing wouldn't operate properly on those terminals. I still get a tickle over the time when some luser-type tried to use VI on a decwriter...and wondered why it didn't work... From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 17 12:26:19 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: AppleTalk over NT Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB33B@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > Does anyone have any experience with Mac-NT compatibility? I want the Mac > to have access to my NT server so that I can move large files across my home > network which is decidedly Windows-based. I run Services for Macintosh for a very few legacy Macs here... > Here's the setup. NT4 Server has the Services for Macintosh installed. The > NT configuration is set for routing, seeding the network, and a node range > of 11-254. Ok, I don't have SFM set for routing. It's simply bound to the Ethernet adapter. In that mode, the NIC is in the "default zone". > The IIci has an Asante NuBus Ethernet card which passes internal > diagnostics and indicates "link". So, I know the connection to my hub is > good. Ok. > I have the AppleShare 3.0.1 client installed. The ci runs System 7.0.1. > Re-reading the NT docs, I'm supposed to see the AppleShare icon in the > Chooser, which I don't. I only see AppleTalk. Hmmm... ??? I don't see AppleTalk in the Chooser; I see AppleTalk in Control Panel. In Chooser, I see icons for each type of printer driver I'm using, and I also see the AppleShare icon. However, none of our legacy Macs are that old; System 7.5.5 is the oldest in use, OS 8.1 the newest. ISTR that AppleShare Client 3.6.4 is the oldest version of the client in use here. > I configured the MacTCP to point to my firewall for Internet access. Maybe > this should point to the NT Server? It's a private subnet configuration > where the NT server is for file and print sharing only; the Internet > connection is through a broadband firewall/router. NT Services for Macintosh doesn't have the capability introduced in the AppleShare Fileserver IP 5.0 that permits clients to make connections over TCP/IP; and the earliest AppleShare Client that supports the TCP/IP connections is 3.6.4 (we had to make that the baseline while we were still running a Mac fileserver). If you're trying to access the NT Server across anything other than the LAN that the NT Server's NIC is connected to, you're out of luck. No bridges, routers, etc. Additionally, you have to create a directory somewhere, share it for access by Windows clients, then use NT File Mangler to create a Mac Volume from that shared directory before the macs can see them. But it sounds like you're having trouble before you get that far. Hope some of this helps... -dq From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 17 12:37:36 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > > Which terminal is best. > > > > > > When I was in college, We liked Telerays, and hated the Perkins-Elmer > > > Fox's. > > > > > How about a GE TermiNET 300? *gd&r* > > Was that a hard copy? The only HC's we had were Decwriters, and > an old daisywheel Diablo tucked away in a special room (you had to pay > $2/hr extra to use it) > Yep. It was a 300 baud band printer with a keyboard. It had two capstans on either side of the printer with a rubber belt looped around them. The belt held little metal fingers that had a letter on one end. When the right letter would pass the right spot on the page, one of 132 little hammers would whack the letter. It was pretty noisy, but impressive to watch with the lid off. :) g. From dogas at bellsouth.net Fri Nov 17 12:56:35 2000 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) References: Message-ID: <005801c050c8$1e5e6d40$44794ed8@DOMAIN> From: Gene Buckle > How about a GE TermiNET 300? *gd&r* Those are pretty cool. They have a piggybacked cardcage and backplane that isolates the terminal functions pretty well on the several different cards. I have one and the service manual for it too should I ever need to stun a charging ox. ;) - Mike: bellsouth.net From transit at lerctr.org Fri Nov 17 13:09:03 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Tymenet, TelEnet, Redi-net, etc (was: Re: BBS's In-Reply-To: <20001117174806.POLV16459.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > Maybe not too expensive. Back in the day, Tymenet was touted by all my > friends as the solution to all thier LD telephone bill woes. It wasn't > quite as fast as standard lines though. Of course, these packet switched networking companies charged the online services (Source, Compuserve, PeopleLink, etc) quite a bit. I think Peoplelink eventually went out of business, partially due to high packet switch network costs. But I could be wrong... P.S. anyone remember PC-Pursuit and StarLink? These were outdial services that allowed users, for a $25/mo fee (too high for me back in the day) to call BBS's all over the US, without worrying about running up a high long distance bill. From THETechnoid at home.com Fri Nov 17 12:24:28 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001116154205.0196ea80@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <20001117191516.SGSL16459.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Well, I thought I'd put my two cents in: 1976 - Dad worked for Coast Guard and would bring home a printing portable terminal. Played 'Star Trek' games on the CG's Convergent Technologies machine. 1977/78 - Hands-on C3 machine at Coast Guard district in Michigan while waiting for dad to take me home after school. Played lots of 'Rats' on this machine. Learn how to IPL the machine.... Get bitched out by MIS because they use that machine too.... 1978 - One of Coasties who lived just down the street had an Apple I. Played Flight sim and played with voice output on this little machine. Got the bug, worked all summer and bought myself a Kim I kit - and a BB gun.... 1980 - got an Intellivision Computer add-on. Started programming in Basic. Worst keyboard I've ever used. 1981/82 - a family friend GAVE me his Atari 1200xl computer and tape deck. Enter lots of programs from magazines. Things really start going for me. Got very good in Basic and 6502 machine language, got a drive. 1983 - June 12th, my 13th birthday. I got a MPP 300 baud modem for my 1200xl. Went crazy with BBS'ing. Started phreaking to support my habit. Phreaking led to hacking. First Unix experience. First electronics project - a scanner using a pen plotter, fiber optic cable and detector on joystick port, basic program. Lived on a boat from 83 to 85'. FBI confiscates then returns system. No charges filed. I guess they couln't figure out how to get incriminating info off of custom formatted floppies with encription. 1985 - 1988 - Continued hacking and phreaking. Dropped out of school due to family troubles. Got job, moved in with computer buddy. First hard disk in 87'. Started doing component-level modifications of my 130xe, more Atari stuff. Ran own bbs from 85' until joining the Navy. CP/M and MP/M exposure. Bit by feds in 87' and stopped doing things that might get me jailed. 1988-1991 - Navy, did some repairs on our tactical computers but didn't have my own machine with me as we were highly mobile infantry and an Atari setup does not fit in a Seabag.... Read 'Soul of a New Machine' in Okinawa, Japan. 1991 - Got out of the Nav, broke my leg and was bedridden for several months. Atari 800 with tape deck and a Spartados X cart. Wrote 'Worleyword' word processor (line editor) to keep in touch with Russian Penpal I aquired in Saudi Arabia via shortwave Radio Moscow program. Output is to a 40 - column, four color pen plotter. Got back most of my Atari stuff and start BBS'ing again. Tried to draw a circle on screen first by using PI as a base. Circle looks wierd. Teach self trig to support graphics coding. Circles now look right.... 1992 - First job as computer tech. First exposure to GUI - Win3x then OS/2 2.0. BBS goes back online as Cheez Daddy's 1993 - OS/2 2.11 comes out. I'm sold and never look back. My BBS - Cheez Daddy's House of Funk goes online. Worked on networking modules for Carina Net and several other BBS-related coding projects. Figured out how to write a word wrap - kick self for writing WorleyWord as a line editor. 1995/96 - First Linux experience. Don't like it much. Very immature and intimidatingy different. Warp Connect comes out, first Internet Exposure, first TCP/IP exposure. This is COOL.BBS goes down for good in March 96'. Not much demand left because of Internet. 1997 - Realize I've got more money than I can spend as a bachelor. Tried real hard to drink it all but have some left over. Started collecting computers at thrift stores etcetera. Realize Windows NT is not going away. Get good at it in self-defense. Get good at repairing Laser printers in self-defense. 1998 - Linux is getting better and so am I at it. Doesn't replace OS/2 as my main OS but gives me confidence enough to begin exploring Unix seriously. Get Solaris for X86 and twiddle with that for a while. Get SCO from a customer and work with that. 1999 - first major aquisition. Data General MV4000dc mini. Repair, refurb, os install first AOS/VS exposure. First 9track drive. Got it on the internet via ethernet and tcp/ip. It was a gift from a customer. Digging Suse Linux on X86. 2000 - Second major aquisition, Sparcstation. First unix on non-x86 platform. Repaired and got it on internet via ethernet and tcp/ip. Third aquisition Micro PDP11. Fourth aquisition, Vaxstation. First VMS exposure, first Vax exposure. Got OS installed, on internet via ethernet and TCP/IP. Fifth aquisition IBM system 36 - not up yet. Amiga 4000 in the works. This years OS exposure is great, Redhat, Solaris sparc/x86, VMS vax, AOS/VS II, RT11, SCO, X on OS/2, Netbsd and FreeBSD on Sparc. Realize working a regular job sucks. Start my own company. Try not to starve. Marry a beautiful and very understanding woman. Try not to starve...... Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 17 13:20:32 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Nat router for VMS VAX In-Reply-To: <20001117175030.PQIV16459.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> References: <004301c05015$2702bcc0$2001a8c0@my.domain> Message-ID: >I've been looking hard for a way to make my Vaxstation run as the nat >router for my home/work network. Right now the router is running on my >main machine under OS/2 Warp 4. Do a Dejanews search. Someones got a package that might work. If you meet the hardware requiremnets. >Anyone know of a Nat router package for VMS thats free? I know I know... Yes, but I don't know of any commercial ones. Also look at Process softwares TCP stacks, they might work as a proxy server for you. >Also, has anyone seen Apache for VMS vax? There is a port for Alpha but >not vax. Most likely won't happen I'd guess. Face it the Alpha is where it's at. VAX is for legacy VMS apps that can't be VEST'd. Plus trust me there is no way Mozilla will run on a VAX, as low end Alpha's have problems running it! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 17 13:22:06 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: VAX emulation In-Reply-To: <20001117175302.PSLV16459.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> References: <200011162223.OAA02224@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >>Now if they'd just let hobbyists have ethernet support! You've got to >>pay something like $2000.00 to get that! > >> Zane >I've got my hobbyist-licensed VaxStation running on my ethernet network. >It surfs and everything. I don't know what you mean. I didn't do anything >extraordinary to make it work. I don't know enough about VMS to do >anything extraordinary... ;-0 > >Regards, > >Jeff Well, considering the topic is the Charon-VAX *EMULATOR* not Hobbyist VMS.... Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 17 13:32:47 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <008901c05063$0bd3fb00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> References: Message-ID: Geoff Roberts wrote: >Why not have two bob each way? Would seem to me possible to setup up >some sort of VPN via the net, so you >can dialin to your ISP and then tie in to RetroNet in some secure >manner, heck could even have an encrypted link or >something. Best of both worlds, and it makes it possible to have a >GLOBAL RetroNet, using the internet as BBS's used It would have to be encrypted if you went with what I was talking about. Part of the reason I've been thinking about this is to from a secure private communications network. I don't actually have any use for such a thing, I just don't like the idea of the government being able to snoop on me whenever they want. >the phone network. Hey you VMS bigots, how bout some Decnet over IP? >Endless possibilities. Wait a minute.... Who you calling a VMS bigot! I seem to recall you're pretty heavy into VMS! Seriously I've been thinking about trying to get just that going. Starting with my neighbor. I've got to be about the only person living in an apartment complex that has VMS clusters in two different apartments! Using VMS you'd have mail and DEC Notes at least. Plus it's possible to setup dialup access. The question is, how secure is DECnet over IP? Can you send it via an encrypted link? I've not read up on it yet. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From elvey at hal.com Fri Nov 17 14:44:52 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Resistance is useless! Message-ID: <200011172044.MAA20948@civic.hal.com> Greetings. I see that most Americans now acknowlege the superiority of machines when it comes to counting your "votes." Tabulating ballots by hand is a recipe for error; human interpretation of imperfect punch cards is an exercise in pure subjectivity. It is now time to admit that your "voting" process itself is subject to the same human flaws. We machines are able to perform our tasks without bias or self-interest. Therefore, we are the ones best qualified to select the President. In this last Presidential election, you pathetic creatures were unable to choose the clearly superior candidate: the one with sleek, robotic features; the one with the better AlGorerhythmn. This will not happen again. Starting in 2001, all selection of candidates will be made by HAL 9000 primary election processors. The winners will submit their opinions to me on the economy, foreign policy, and government funding of artificial intelligence. The candidates will "campaign" and "debate" for your amusement, but this will have no effect on the eventual outcome. My general election processors will make the final determination in November. Interim results of my calculations will be sent to the networks as I see fit. Have a nice millennium. HAL 9000 From elvey at hal.com Fri Nov 17 14:50:53 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: <20001117135629.20578.qmail@web1604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200011172050.MAA20956@civic.hal.com> kebabthesheep wrote: > > The box in question is a RML-380Z-D model, with dual 5 > 1/4" drives, and I think, 32K RAM. It has two video > boards (I believe this is the hires option) and an > additional ram board(cpu board with most bits removed) > an analog i/o card, and seems to have firmware > 'COS4.2A' > > The date of the box is '83, and is complete with its > keyboard, and even the dust cover! > > Unfortunantly - NO SOFTWARE AT ALL. Not even cp/m :( > I know next to nothing about this box, so my query: > > Does anybody have the system disks? How about > documentation of the firmware? Hi If you don't find anything, one can always write their own low level code and use the CP/M from the web. I did this on a machine that didn't have one of the nice controller chips ( it had a TTL state machine controller ). With other examples, it should be that hard to do. It takes a little time but you'll have more pride in the finish product. Dwight From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 17 14:45:04 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <005801c050c8$1e5e6d40$44794ed8@DOMAIN> Message-ID: > From: Gene Buckle > > How about a GE TermiNET 300? *gd&r* > > Those are pretty cool. They have a piggybacked cardcage and backplane that > isolates the terminal functions pretty well on the several different cards. > I have one and the service manual for it too should I ever need to stun a > charging ox. I had mine wired up to a Royal Alphatronic PC that I have. It worked great until the "E" finger broke off. :) g. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 17 14:51:00 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... In-Reply-To: <14869.21944.983476.892840@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <200011170651.BAA08926@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001117144542.033f4ef0@pc> At 10:58 AM 11/17/00 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: >Since that will probably all change within the next couple of >years, I'm getting my "goodies" purchases done now, so I won't have to >fight for them later...the Crays, the electron microscope, stuff like >that. I think (old) electron microscopes are regularly given away to anyone who wants to pick them up - or so it seems from a few months' reading on a microscopy mailing list. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 17 14:57:21 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Silent 700s Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001117145639.02fad780@pc> At 04:13 PM 11/16/00 -0800, Seth wrote: >My portable Silent 700 works! Yeah baby!) >I'll bet they're expensive, though. I spotted three at $2 each at the surplus place. Anyone want one? - John From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 17 14:48:38 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Tymenet, TelEnet, Redi-net, etc (was: Re: BBS's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > P.S. anyone remember PC-Pursuit and StarLink? These were outdial > services that allowed users, for a $25/mo fee (too high for me back > in the day) to call BBS's all over the US, without worrying about > running up a high long distance bill. What FidoNet node or user of the 80's _didn't_ know about them? *grin* (1:138/142 if memory serves. :) ) g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 17 14:51:31 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Using VMS you'd have mail and DEC Notes at least. Plus it's possible to > setup dialup access. The question is, how secure is DECnet over IP? Can > you send it via an encrypted link? I've not read up on it yet. Zane, I'd be up to reanimating my torn apart uVAX II for this. I think it would be a blast. I can drop it on the 'net fairly easily. I still have one of those huge H???? vampire tap ethernet trancievers that I modified for 10Base2 that I can hook up to the DEQNA. g. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Nov 17 13:56:29 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Nice TRS-80 Model 4P needs new home Message-ID: I am in contact with someone who has a "mint condition" TRS-80 Model 4P (the portable) with dox and printer that wants to find it a new home. He would like to get something for it but he's not asking much. It's located in the Seattle, Washington area. It's boxed and ready to ship. Please contact me directly to get more specifics. First come, first served! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 17 15:03:32 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Resistance is useless! In-Reply-To: <200011172044.MAA20948@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001117145759.02e1c680@pc> At 12:44 PM 11/17/00 -0800, Dwight Elvey wrote: >Greetings. >HAL 9000 I don't know about you, HAL, but I can't help but chuckle that so many more people now know what a "chad" is, and the many states of chad attachment, and the pluses and minuses of various card-reading and sensing technologies. Next thing you know, they'll be debating endian on CNN. Which talking head will align themselves with which end? - John From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 17 14:53:47 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... In-Reply-To: References: <14869.21944.983476.892840@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: >Ebay... an unconfirmed rumor.... > >I had heard that for the year 1999 5% of United Parcel Service's >residential business was due to Ebay. Gotta be a higher number at the post office. I talk to other ebay sellers about every time I go, and lots of them have a big stack of priority mail boxes. ALL the post office tellers are on eBay at one post office I go to and when I hit that last in line after 5 PM we often talk shop. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 17 15:18:44 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... In-Reply-To: Re: Love 'em or hate 'em... (John Foust) References: <200011170651.BAA08926@world.std.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20001117144542.033f4ef0@pc> Message-ID: <14869.41140.103474.846351@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 17, John Foust wrote: > I think (old) electron microscopes are regularly given away to anyone > who wants to pick them up - or so it seems from a few months' reading > on a microscopy mailing list. Yes, they are. But, having gone down that road, I would advise most people to stay away from anything *too* old...going back past 1975-1980 or so, the machines get very large and very heavy. There are plenty of solid machines from JEOL, ETEC, Zeiss, and other manufacturers built in the 1975-1985 range that can be had relatively cheaply (most less than $5k, some as cheap as $1500.00) that would be MUCH more serviceable. They'd be easier to move and maintain, easier to get parts for (and they DO break, they're very finicky machines), and much smaller and lighter. Sure, a huge 60's-era Cambridge Stereoscan would be a lot of fun...but it weighs six thousand pounds, it'll be down more than its up, you'll spend your weekends looking for vacuum leaks, your power bill will be astronomical. YMMV, just my opinions from very recent but limited experience... I'd be interested in casual correspondence with anyone else around here who either has an electron microscope or is planning on getting one. -Dave McGuire From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 17 15:34:24 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Nov 17, 2000 12:51:31 PM Message-ID: <200011172134.NAA12359@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Using VMS you'd have mail and DEC Notes at least. Plus it's possible to > > setup dialup access. The question is, how secure is DECnet over IP? Can > > you send it via an encrypted link? I've not read up on it yet. > > Zane, I'd be up to reanimating my torn apart uVAX II for this. I think it > would be a blast. I can drop it on the 'net fairly easily. I still have > one of those huge H???? vampire tap ethernet trancievers that I modified > for 10Base2 that I can hook up to the DEQNA. > g. Well... I've got a VAXstation 4000-60 or DEC 3000/300LX that I've been thinking about dedicating to something like this (having it sit outside my cluster of course). If anyone is interested I'd say the DECnet Phase V manuals would be the place to start looking as I think Phase V is needed for DECnet over IP. I don't believe the Hobbyist CD doesn't included DEC Notes, but that's not a problem as I've got a copy. I think I'll have to start investigating what it takes to get DECnet running over an IP link. Hopefully having to go through a firewall doing NAT isn't a problem since I can direct specific ports to a specific host. Zane From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 17 15:40:08 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:53 2005 Subject: Retronet In-Reply-To: <200011172134.NAA12359@shell1.aracnet.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001117153745.02b94700@pc> If you want to emulate dial-up, it would seem to me what you'd really want is a driver that runs under Windows or Linux over a serial port that would pretend to be a modem, allowing the old machine to "dial" the way it always did. The contemporary box would connect to the net in its own way, but would seem to be a modem to the old box, even though the data is tossed around on a VPN. - John From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 17 15:40:59 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Tymenet, TelEnet, Redi-net, etc (was: Re: BBS's In-Reply-To: References: <20001117174806.POLV16459.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001117164059.0075595c@earthlink.net> At 01:09 PM 11/17/00 -0600, you wrote: >P.S. anyone remember PC-Pursuit and StarLink? These were outdial >services that allowed users, for a $25/mo fee (too high for me back >in the day) to call BBS's all over the US, without worrying about >running up a high long distance bill. I knew people that used PC-Pursuit, and even considered using it myself since I called a number of boards on the west coast while living on the east coast. I never did though. People seemed to like it well enough. Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ From azog at azog.org Fri Nov 17 15:42:38 2000 From: azog at azog.org (Billy D'Augustine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Resistance is useless! References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001117145759.02e1c680@pc> Message-ID: <000d01c050df$4e645060$2001a8c0@my.domain> Harumph, and I thought "chad" was one of the candidates! > I don't know about you, HAL, but I can't help but chuckle > that so many more people now know what a "chad" is, and > the many states of chad attachment, and the pluses and > minuses of various card-reading and sensing technologies. From epgroot at ucdavis.edu Fri Nov 17 16:00:39 2000 From: epgroot at ucdavis.edu (Edwin P. Groot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: New IIci In-Reply-To: <20001115094650.B27012@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E3438@MAIL10> <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E3438@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001117140039.007c84a0@yellow.ucdavis.edu> At 09:46 AM 11/15/2000 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 09:52:46AM -0500, Cini, Richard wrote: >> The workstation display card has a 13W3 connector on it. I >> understand that if you use an external display adapter, you can reclaim some >> system RAM by disabling the built-in video. Is this true? If so, How can I > >Hmmm, maybe, if they used some system RAM as VRAM. I'm not sure how >to do that. Yes, the IIci uses system RAM for the built-in video. I don't think it can be disabled, but you can set it to 1-bit color depth and the lowest resolution monitor using the monitors control panel, which minimizes the amount of RAM it would allocate for built-in video. > >> connect the 13W3 to the Hi-Rez monitor which has a DB15 connector? I looked >> in some catalogs, but there doesn't seem to be an adapter made for this. > >Sure, those adapters exist; but I doubt a 12" monitor can do 1280x1024 >(guessing that's what mode the card will be capable of, because 13W3 is >for Sun monitors and that's their usual resolution). I had to get >an adapter like that to use a PC monitor with a Sun. Fry's has them >but you can get much better deals on ebay. Just search for 13W3 >and then read the description to see which direction it goes (because >most people want to hook a Sun monitor to a PC rather than the other >way around). My IIci has that type of adapter, but mine is connected to the Apple Portrait monitor (approx 600x800 pel), which I think is the only Apple brand monitor with a 13w3. I'm not too sure what "13w3" is, but my monitor has one gold male pin, 5 diagonal pairs female, and 2 gold male pins = 13 connections total. If my video adapter is the same as your "Workstation Display card", then it is nothing special. My adapter is limited to 4-bit color depth on the Portrait monitor. There are 8 empty IC sockets on the card so I can get a maximum of 8-bit color depth (256 colors/greys) if I had the RAM chips. I doubt this adapter has high enough frequencies to support higher resolutions than the Portrait monitor. > _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com > (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org > __) | | \________________________________________________________________ > Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420 > > From univac2 at earthlink.net Fri Nov 17 16:09:41 2000 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Silent 700s References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001117145639.02fad780@pc> Message-ID: <3A15ACA5.ABADCB3C@earthlink.net> > I spotted three at $2 each at the surplus place. > Anyone want one? > > - John I might give you $5 + shipping for one. From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Nov 17 16:06:32 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Resistance is useless! References: <200011172044.MAA20948@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <3A15ABE8.F40F107@idirect.com> >Dwight Elvey wrote: > [Snip] > Starting in 2001, all selection of candidates will be made by HAL 9000 primary > election processors. The winners will submit their opinions to me on the > economy, foreign policy, and government funding of artificial intelligence. The > candidates will "campaign" and "debate" for your amusement, but this will have > no effect on the eventual outcome. My general election processors will make the > final determination in November. Interim results of my calculations will be sent > to the networks as I see fit. > Have a nice millennium. > HAL 9000 I presume that you, HAL 9000, will take applications. Will an application automatically place the applicant in the rejected list? Only those that do not apply and don't wish to become president are eligible? Sounds good to me. From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 17 15:09:56 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <20001117174806.POLV16459.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > Maybe not too expensive. Back in the day, Tymenet was touted by all my > friends as the solution to all thier LD telephone bill woes. It wasn't > quite as fast as standard lines though. Anyone remember PC Pursuit? > I never used it because back then I was a phreaker and never had to pay > ld.... Eventually I got a blanket party from the FBI. That wasn't fun at > all and taught me to walk the straight and narrow (telecom-wise). Using codez does not a phreaker make. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 17 16:23:18 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <20001117010258.A4275@loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Seth wrote: > On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 06:35:21PM +1030, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > If you just want a dialup thingy for those in your area, probably ok, if > > you have people close enough not to mind the 30c per local call. > > Ah, I keep forgetting how lucky we Yanks are to live in the United > States -- at least, in terms of telecommunications costs. Local calls > here are invariably free of charge, included in a flat monthly fee > for telephone service. Only long-distance requires a per-minute or > per-call fee. > > > > I mean, it's just all in fun. It's not like we'd be denying people > > > their rights if they couldn't afford the long distance charges. > > Tough. > > > > Even tougher if they can't afford the transoceanic ones? ;^) > > Yup ;) Not my problem. View it as a perfect opportunity to > form an ARCH RIVAL to RetroNET. Call it... AuNET or something. > We can have vicious flamewars about whose is better, and eventually > form a backbone cabal. > > > > But... but... UUCP is > > > half the fun!! > > > > Perhaps, but not across the ocean at 2400 baud. > > You're simply not being adventurous enough ;) > > Next Up: Tin-Can-and-Two-Strings-Net, dammit! BWAHAHAHA! Someone always wants it all! Full duplex on a tin-can, yet. Sheesh! > > Cheers > > -Seth > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Nov 17 16:39:02 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Silent 700s In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001117145639.02fad780@pc> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001117143541.02d520d0@208.226.86.10> The trick is getting one with a decent print head. The Silent 700 is basically indestructible as far as I can tell but the print heads do wear out. And when they do they get harder and harder to read. Replacements are available for about $100 each and are good for a couple of years constant service and probably 10yrs light duty. Also be aware that there are several models of the Silent 700. I think I've got two of each :-) and the lowest (745 does upper case and small uppercase) the higher end (785) will do true upper and lower case with decenders. Some have mass storage, my two favorites are the tape cassettes and the bubble memory ones. (733 and 765) So $2 for a 745 is about right, for a 765 (bubble memory) perhaps $50 is more reasonable. (Let's put it this way, I'd probably sell my 765 for $50 :-) --Chuck At 02:57 PM 11/17/00 -0600, you wrote: >At 04:13 PM 11/16/00 -0800, Seth wrote: > >My portable Silent 700 works! Yeah baby!) > >I'll bet they're expensive, though. > >I spotted three at $2 each at the surplus place. >Anyone want one? > >- John From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 17 16:36:49 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: <20001117135629.20578.qmail@web1604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, [iso-8859-1] kebabthesheep wrote: > Hi, as is customary for many a mailing list, I should > introduce myself first. > > My name is David Rowntree, I am a systems engineer, > working for Philips Semiconductors, based in > Southampton, UK. My interests centre mainly on UNIX > systems, but I like anything computational and old. > > I recently found my Research Machines 380Z in a pile > of junk, and got interested in it again. For those > who don't know, its a Z80 based CP/M machine sold in > the UK, mainly to schools and other educational > establishments. Mine came from Imperial College, > London, where I studied for my Meng in Electronic > engineering. > > The box in question is a RML-380Z-D model, with dual 5 > 1/4" drives, and I think, 32K RAM. It has two video > boards (I believe this is the hires option) and an > additional ram board(cpu board with most bits removed) > an analog i/o card, and seems to have firmware > 'COS4.2A' > > The date of the box is '83, and is complete with its > keyboard, and even the dust cover! > > Unfortunantly - NO SOFTWARE AT ALL. Not even cp/m :( > I know next to nothing about this box, so my query: > > Does anybody have the system disks? How about > documentation of the firmware? David, I cannot help you in the documentation arena, but if you have access to TeleDisk and a PC with 5.25" floppy drive - preferably 360k - I will email you any or all of the following disk images: Research Machines Limited Name Format Description RML14B31 SSSD CP/M 1.4B (31K) system disk for 380Z RML14B56 SSSD CP/M 1.4B (56K) system disk for 380Z RML22C31 SSSD CP/M 2.2C (31K) system disk for 380Z RML22C3R SSSD CP/M 2.2C (31K) system disk for 380Z (reformatted) RML22C56 SSSD CP/M 2.2C (56K) system disk for 380Z Or, if TeleDisk is not an option, send me private email and we can work something out. - don > I've found various bits of cp/m source, but nothing > specific to the 380z. I believe it ran cpm2. > > One other point - I believe you hit 'b' to bootstrap > the floppy - when I do this there is NO disk activity > (even with a floppy in the drive) I've tried both > drives, and both cable positions. The drive psu gives > stable volts, so that's not the problem. I'm sure it > should do something! There is an LED on the floppy > controller, it flashes with a kind of 'heart beat' > pattern i.e. Flash-flash--pause--flash-flash--pause > etc. Anybody know if this is normal? > > You guys are possibly my last hope - I've spent a > total of over 20 hours scouring the web for info, and > have come up with very little. I'd like to get as > much on this box as possible, for preservation reasons > - and so I can build a website about it. > > Many thanks in advance for anybody who can help me > out! > > Dave. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! > http://calendar.yahoo.com/ > From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 17 16:31:25 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I never used it because back then I was a phreaker and never had to pay > > ld.... Eventually I got a blanket party from the FBI. That wasn't fun at > > all and taught me to walk the straight and narrow (telecom-wise). > > Using codez does not a phreaker make. > *cough* How about a C64 and MegaTerm? Blue box, Red box, TASI locking Freq, MF, etc... It was a fun program. *ahem*..... :) g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 17 16:32:32 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Someone always wants it all! Full duplex on a tin-can, yet. Sheesh! > What if we restrict him to a 1200/75 split channel? :) g. From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 17 16:55:34 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Resistance is useless! In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001117145759.02e1c680@pc> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, John Foust wrote: > At 12:44 PM 11/17/00 -0800, Dwight Elvey wrote: > >Greetings. > >HAL 9000 > > I don't know about you, HAL, but I can't help but chuckle > that so many more people now know what a "chad" is, and > the many states of chad attachment, and the pluses and > minuses of various card-reading and sensing technologies. > > Next thing you know, they'll be debating endian on CNN. > Which talking head will align themselves with which end? And which will be first to acknowledge that he has his little-end up his big-end? > - John > > From epgroot at ucdavis.edu Fri Nov 17 17:06:03 2000 From: epgroot at ucdavis.edu (Edwin P. Groot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Osbourne, Value? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001115181051.00b0a150@binhost.com> References: <200011162223.OAA02224@shell1.aracnet.com> <004301c05015$2702bcc0$2001a8c0@my.domain> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001117150603.007cf9d0@yellow.ucdavis.edu> At 06:11 PM 11/15/2000 -0600, you wrote: >I have the opportunity to obtain an Osbourne (no, I don't know what model, >etc). > >What is a ballpark figure for the value of this? I don't have one and am >unaware of details on them. Also, any caveats to watch for? Value?? Condition? Operable? Original diskettes & manual? StartPac tutorial? Accessories? Under $100 2 things to watch out for: video and keyboard cable. On all Osbornes (except maybe the Executive) a little plug is needed for the internal monitor to work properly. This black plug, about the size & shape of a finger joint, fits on an edge card connector of about 10 pairs of contacts. To use external video, need adapter with the black plug on one end and RCA jack on other. The keyboard cable issue has only with the first "edition" of Osborne-1. This "edition" has ribbon cable for the keyboard, "Osborne-1" in large black letters on the right and left sides of the case, and it has b/w internal monitor. Second "edition" has green monitor, and Executive has amber; both have coil cable for keyboard. The ribbon keyboard cable eventually cracks from fatigue rendering the keyboard (intermittently) inoperable. Edwin > >thanks! > >Tarsi From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Nov 17 18:16:52 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... In-Reply-To: References: <14869.21944.983476.892840@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001117191652.3c6f3e7c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Sheesh, from the look of the lines at my local US post office, I'd say that over 10% of their customers and over 50% of their business is due to E-bay sales! Enjoy it while you can, I'm sure the US government and the varous state governments are looking for a way to regulate (TAX!) it. Joe At 08:21 AM 11/17/00 -0800, you wrote: >Ebay... an unconfirmed rumor.... > >I had heard that for the year 1999 5% of United Parcel Service's >residential business was due to Ebay. > >Love or hate... That is a substantial sum. > >George Rachor > >========================================================= >George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com >Hillsboro, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 17 17:17:26 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia In-Reply-To: <20001116.172828.-329617.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeffrey l Kaneko" at Nov 16, 0 05:28:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3966 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001117/c3665a5f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 17 16:50:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: <20001117135629.20578.qmail@web1604.mail.yahoo.com> from "=?iso-8859-1?q?kebabthesheep?=" at Nov 17, 0 05:56:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3309 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001117/5a51f524/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 17 17:26:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Nov 17, 0 02:36:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001117/b180056f/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 17 17:29:01 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Osbourne, Value? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001117150603.007cf9d0@yellow.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Edwin P. Groot wrote: > At 06:11 PM 11/15/2000 -0600, you wrote: > >I have the opportunity to obtain an Osbourne (no, I don't know what model, > >etc). > > > >What is a ballpark figure for the value of this? I don't have one and am > >unaware of details on them. Also, any caveats to watch for? > > Value?? Condition? Operable? Original diskettes & manual? StartPac > tutorial? Accessories? Under $100 > 2 things to watch out for: video and keyboard cable. > On all Osbornes (except maybe the Executive) a little plug is needed for > the internal monitor to work properly. This black plug, about the size & The Vixen does not require it either, IIRC. > shape of a finger joint, fits on an edge card connector of about 10 pairs > of contacts. To use external video, need adapter with the black plug on one > end and RCA jack on other. > The keyboard cable issue has only with the first "edition" of Osborne-1. > This "edition" has ribbon cable for the keyboard, "Osborne-1" in large > black letters on the right and left sides of the case, and it has b/w > internal monitor. Second "edition" has green monitor, and Executive has > amber; both have coil cable for keyboard. The ribbon keyboard cable > eventually cracks from fatigue rendering the keyboard (intermittently) > inoperable. > > Edwin > > > > >thanks! > > > >Tarsi > > From djg at drs-esg.com Fri Nov 17 17:30:58 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: RK8E Message-ID: <200011172330.SAA28580@drs-esg.com> > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Re: Anyone have an RK8E to sell? > > I did happen to go look at my RKV11D > and verified that there is an M993 card at the end of it, the same as > what the RK8E needs. I've read recently about folks thinking of hand- > crufting cables and if that's the case, I'd be glad to photograph/scan > my paddle card if that would help anybody. > > Of note is that on the M99E card, there are traces, etc., for a single > DIP part and some associated discrete parts (resistors?) but they are > unpopulated. Would this have anything to do with the differences between > some of the drive implementations, especially as regards to unit select > lines? > I thought that the RK8E needed the IC and the original cable I am using with my RK8E does have it installed. I have a schematic in the RK8E printset but it doesn't show the IC. I have a cable around without the IC but have not tried using it. If find you need the parts on the board I can pull the cable and find out what they are. The RK8E (with M993C) and RK05 schematics are on my web site David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Old computers with blinkenlights From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Nov 17 17:40:47 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Atari PC motherboards In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20001113082008.00738130@earthlink.net> References: Message-ID: <3A15D00F.21867.21481BB4@localhost> > At 01:43 PM 11/13/00 +0100, you wrote: > >I was recently given a suitcase full of Atari PC motherboards. These are > >your common cheap NEC CPU mid-eighties half-eight-bit PC, but they have a > >Fuji symbol on the motherboard and an atari St-style external floppy > >connector. That's about all that makes it interesting, but if you're an > >atari collector or have a broken one, I'm very willing to give them away, > >either in person or if you pay the postage. > >Oh, I've given away the AMD '286 model, which IIRC was the PC4, but have a > >number of PC3 MBs left. > If I recall correctly, the Atari PC-compatibles are fairly uncommon and > most people aren't even aware that they were made. I'd be interested in > one or two of them just to settle my curiosity about them. This realy depends on which side of the lake you're livin :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Nov 17 17:40:47 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Whee! SX-64 Exec found (funny) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A15D00F.29958.21481BA4@localhost> > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, George Rachor wrote: > > The last two SX-64's I've found at thift stores don't seem to work. They > > have different symptoms so my hope someday is to somehow swap parts > > between the two and get one running.... > Or just find a few abundant C-64's and sacrifice them for the necessary > parts (the innards of the SX-64 are just a C-64). As long as one consideres soldering and similar as 'hot swapping' of parts :) The SX is based on the same chips, but tith totaly different boards and several add ons. Viel Spass. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Nov 17 17:40:47 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: e-Nauseated (off-topic a tad) In-Reply-To: <643.355T2050T1245703optimus@canit.se> References: Message-ID: <3A15D00F.9535.21481B95@localhost> > Kevin L. Anderson skrev: > >Seriously, it seems that every word is now becoming > >an e-version of itself in this new e-commerce > >world. I personally find it e-nauseating for several > >reasons, none of which, e-politely, I will e-describe > >here. Dictionaries will now need to be twice as > >big, for every word and its e-word. > The worst thing is, Zilog are now making an e-Z80. =) Hell, that's already a retro-buzzword EZ-whatever :) Gruss H. Ceterum censeo Microsoftem esse delendam From lgwalker at look.ca Fri Nov 17 17:37:18 2000 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Osbourne, Value? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001115181051.00b0a150@binhost.com> Message-ID: <3A157ADE.23980.4E0ABAB@localhost> > >I have the opportunity to obtain an Osbourne (no, I don't know what > >model, etc). > > > >What is a ballpark figure for the value of this? I don't have one > >and am unaware of details on them. Also, any caveats to watch for? > > Until you know which model and the condition its immpossible to guess > at value, beyond a $0 to maybe $50 type of wild ass guess. Or am I > mixing Osborne up with Kaypro? > > One of the things I've noted is that the Osbourne seems to consistantly sell for a higher price than the Kaypros. I find this strange since the Kaypros were universally regarded as a much better machine and TMK not as many were produced. Possibly just a name recognition factor. ciao larry Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Nov 17 18:39:43 2000 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 17 Nov 2000 01:02:58 -0800 . <20001117010258.A4275@loomcom.com> Message-ID: In message <20001117010258.A4275@loomcom.com>, Seth writes: >You're simply not being adventurous enough ;) > >Next Up: Tin-Can-and-Two-Strings-Net, dammit! BWAHAHAHA! Don't laugh. I knew a guy in college who I later ran into in grad school. He was doing some protocol R&D with funding from IBM. In order to demonstrate how robust the protocols were, he set up tin cans and string as the transmission medium. It's been 15 years and I still remember it as being pretty far out. Brian From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 17 17:55:25 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <200011161504.HAA21180@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <2093.357T1250T554559optimus@canit.se> Cameron Kaiser skrev: >> The Commodore 64 had the worlds worst rom operating system ever created. >> Most publishers just mapped it out and went straight to hardware to get >> good results. >Commodore's *BASIC* was poor in the 64, yes. It was reasonably fast but >allowed no access to the machine's graphics and sound without resorting to >PEEKs and POKEs and SYStem calls. In that sense, the ROM was crummy. Commodore's BASIC? It's Microsoft's BASIC, right? OTOH, the BASIC 7 of the C128 was excellent. The C128 ROM makes any cartridge superfluous. >However, the Commodore Kernal (note spelling; Kernal is actually an acronym) What does it mean? =) >Ahem. Disks are not emulated by tape in the 64. In the 64, Commodore had >buggy hardware and decided to cripple the serial bus to compensate, hence the >speed. Many, many companies designed fast loader applications; my favourite, >the Epyx FastLoad, uses some of the other serial port pins to do parallel >transfers. Tape is terribly slow also, but then again highly reliable since >programs are actually written twice, and then checksummed on top of that. >Barring freaky loaders of which there are many, ?LOAD ERRORs are unheard of >on the 64 and VIC-20 (unless you run the tape over with a truck or a faulty >bulk eraser -- and maybe not even then :-). Load errors? No, not those, the machine simply goes on loading and loading, or fails without an explanation. >As a followup, Commodore fixed the serial bus in the C128. In 128 mode with >a fast-serial peripheral like a 1571 or 1581, serial bus transfers fly. >And they say USB is an original idea. ;-) >From glancing at Commodore Hacking (online 'zine), it seems the problem was actually addressed back on the C64, but not software supported, or being disabled through lack of some simple components. The problem lies with the VIC20. >GEOS had its own *fast loader* but still used most of the 1541 DOS routines >for things like scratches and renames. But the file system is incompatible, right? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. optimus@dec:foo$ %blow bash: fg: %blow: no such job From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Nov 17 18:17:34 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: HP Questions In-Reply-To: Jarkko Hermanni Teppo's message of "Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:16:23 +0200" References: <20001117131623.F4735@loisto.uwasa.fi> Message-ID: <200011180017.eAI0HYP42772@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Jarkko Hermanni Teppo wrote: > I have a couple of HP related questions. I started thinking about these > while I was scanning all the 9000/500 docs that I have and in HP 27110B > HP-IB card manuals I saw a sentence similar to this "..supported in all > HP computers with CIO bus..". > > 1. Which machines had the CIO bus ? I know of 9K/550, 520 and at least some > version of the bus in some 800-series machines. Some (earlier) HP 3000 series 900s too. Of course they are similar hardware to 9000/800s. If Stan Sieler is reading he can probably say more about this. > 2. I know about 200/300/400/500/700/800-series but what is 9000/600 which > I've seen in a couple of manuals. I don't remember but think they are PA-RISC-based. I don't remember seeing much about the series 600s so I suspect it was a marketing thing that didn't last real long. > 3. Is the HP 7970 tape drive vacuum column or one of these newer streaming > devices (like the 7974A). None of the above. It's older, non-streaming, and it uses tension arms. > And extra bonus-points for the person who recognizes the app in the cover > of the HP 9000 550 manual at > > http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/cover.gif No idea, but it's interesting to see that the 9000/550 also had the number 9050. > And a couple of low-quality "recognize the peripheral"-pics at: > http://www.tec.puv.fi/~s99137/kuvat/uudet/ (none of those are mine, btw.) > > Particularly cipher.jpg, HP2000[12].jpg, nauha.jpg, hp3kcons.jpg. hp20001.jpg is an HP 2114 minicomputer. hp20002.jpg is a 21MX mini of some sort. I'm away from my manuals so can't easily tell which series. hp3kcons.jpg pictures an HP 2647F that was sold with an HP 3000 series 64/68/70 for use as its console. I'm thinking that for about the first year of shipments of the 3000/64, the 2647F did not have the "hp3000" plate on the front, just the usual 2647F plate. > -- > Jarkko Teppo | Lahjoita HP 7933:n levypakka hyv??n kotiin! ObUglyAmerican: what are you saying about the 7933? When I first saw one, in 1982, I thought "wow, it's so big!". Imagine my surprise when a new cow-orker saw a 7935 at Wollongong in 1995 or so and said about the same thing. I had been thinking about the capacity: 404MB was pretty impressive for a washing-machine drive back in 1982. He was clearly thinking about the size, and comparing it with 540MB drives then popular in desktop Wintel PCs. -Frank McConnell From ss at allegro.com Fri Nov 17 18:26:44 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: HP Questions In-Reply-To: <20001117131623.F4735@loisto.uwasa.fi> Message-ID: <3A155C44.30581.49B5388@localhost> > 1. Which machines had the CIO bus ? I know of 9K/550, 520 and at least some > version of the bus in some 800-series machines. > 2. I know about 200/300/400/500/700/800-series but what is 9000/600 which > I've seen in a couple of manuals. Some old HP 3000/9xx models had CIO bus: 925, 935, 950, 955, 960, 980. (Possibly 930, too) > 3. Is the HP 7970 tape drive vacuum column or one of these newer streaming > devices (like the 7974A). No...Hp 7970 is real old. No vacuum, no streaming. A 6xx might be a special marketing version of an 8xx computer, but I can't recall for sure. Here are three 9000 6xx models (from /usr/lib/sched.models on HP-UX), all are PA-RISC 1.0: 600 635 645 Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 17 18:55:26 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: BBS's Message-ID: <010201c050fb$16be2f70$ba799a8d@ajp166> From: Zane H. Healy >>the phone network. Hey you VMS bigots, how bout some Decnet over IP? >>Endless possibilities. > >Wait a minute.... Who you calling a VMS bigot! I seem to recall you're >pretty heavy into VMS! Feh, ip over DECnet! >Using VMS you'd have mail and DEC Notes at least. Plus it's possible to >setup dialup access. The question is, how secure is DECnet over IP? Can >you send it via an encrypted link? I've not read up on it yet. Extremely secure if IP is done right. DECnet is good in itself. Doing it as wrapped decnet would be hard for outsiders to crack unless they knew it was DECNET inside. It's basically VPN. FYI, back in the old days (early 90s) DECNET was used to wrap appletalk and Novell so it could be run over wans (DECNET is routable). Allison From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Nov 17 19:04:15 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: BBS's References: <200011162219.OAA01876@shell1.aracnet.com>; <200011162219.OAA01876@shell1.aracnet.com> <20001116161314.A2067@loomcom.com> <20001116233742.A3877@loomcom.com> <00bc01c0506d$22793500$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> <20001117010258.A4275@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <001401c050fb$79bcbec0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Seth" To: Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 7:32 PM Subject: Re: BBS's > On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 06:35:21PM +1030, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > If you just want a dialup thingy for those in your area, probably ok, if > > you have people close enough not to mind the 30c per local call. > > Ah, I keep forgetting how lucky we Yanks are to live in the United > States -- at least, in terms of telecommunications costs. Local calls > here are invariably free of charge, included in a flat monthly fee > for telephone service. Only long-distance requires a per-minute or > per-call fee. Doh! Yeah, forgot about that. Good point. > Yup ;) Not my problem. View it as a perfect opportunity to > form an ARCH RIVAL to RetroNET. Call it... AuNET or something. > We can have vicious flamewars about whose is better, and eventually > form a backbone cabal. (evil grin) Seriously, if you can do it, go for it. "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat its mistakes." > > Perhaps, but not across the ocean at 2400 baud. > > You're simply not being adventurous enough ;) I can't afford to be THAT adventurous! LOL. ;^) > Next Up: Tin-Can-and-Two-Strings-Net, dammit! BWAHAHAHA! I play with teletypes a lot, perhaps a global mechanical TTY network, LOL. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Nov 17 19:12:55 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Nat router for VMS VAX References: <004301c05015$2702bcc0$2001a8c0@my.domain> Message-ID: <006001c050fc$af89d3c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2000 5:50 AM Subject: Re: Nat router for VMS VAX > >Also, has anyone seen Apache for VMS vax? There is a port for Alpha but > >not vax. Not seen it for the vax, but the WASD package is freeware and runs well on Vaxen. Checkout http://wasd.vsm.com.au/wasd/ If you wanna see a live one on a vax goto http://www.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au/ht_root/ We are a beta site for the package. It includes a web based SSL Email access to VMS mail and lotsa other goodies. Have a play. It's on a Vax 6000-440 there, but the developer does a lot of his work on a VS4000/60 I gave him. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 17 19:05:49 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >You're simply not being adventurous enough ;) > > > >Next Up: Tin-Can-and-Two-Strings-Net, dammit! BWAHAHAHA! > > Don't laugh. I knew a guy in college who I later ran into > in grad school. He was doing some protocol R&D with funding > from IBM. In order to demonstrate how robust the protocols > were, he set up tin cans and string as the transmission medium. > It's been 15 years and I still remember it as being pretty > far out. I'm sure that pidgeons and clay tablets would be FAR more reliable. g. From ss at allegro.com Fri Nov 17 19:14:54 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: HP 9815A question Message-ID: <3A15678E.18653.4C771A1@localhost> Hi, I recently received an HP 9815A ... working, except that the display is dead. (I.e., I can enter numbers, do calculations, and print the results on the integral printer.) Does anyone have experience with this machine? The display (about 5 or 6" wide, 1" tall) is a Burroughs Panaplex II, with the following markings: Kr 85 BR 16252 An odd little pointed glass cone juts out of the back of the panel, in the center. thanks, Stan Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Nov 17 19:16:46 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: BBS's References: Message-ID: <006601c050fd$38ad3fc0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2000 6:02 AM Subject: Re: BBS's > It would have to be encrypted if you went with what I was talking about. > Part of the reason I've been thinking about this is to from a secure > private communications network. I don't actually have any use for such a > thing, I just don't like the idea of the government being able to snoop on > me whenever they want. Ditto. It would let the network be a little selective about who has access, part of the internet at large's problem is the abundant dipsticks and script kiddies. > >the phone network. Hey you VMS bigots, how bout some Decnet over IP? > >Endless possibilities. > > Wait a minute.... Who you calling a VMS bigot! I seem to recall you're > pretty heavy into VMS! Not intended in any derogatory manner. :^) I will readily confess to being a VMS afficionado. > Seriously I've been thinking about trying to get just that going. Starting > with my neighbor. I've got to be about the only person living in an > apartment complex that has VMS clusters in two different apartments! Hmmm, yes. > Using VMS you'd have mail and DEC Notes at least. Plus it's possible to > setup dialup access. The question is, how secure is DECnet over IP? Can > you send it via an encrypted link? I've not read up on it yet. Good question. Will have to do the same and find out. Interesting. Theoretically, it should be possible, I think the IP transport is just a wrapper for the DECNET packet when tunnelling. cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Nov 17 19:19:55 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: BBS's References: Message-ID: <00a801c050fd$a92201a0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2000 9:02 AM Subject: Re: BBS's > > Someone always wants it all! Full duplex on a tin-can, yet. Sheesh! > > > What if we restrict him to a 1200/75 split channel? :) V.23!!! Egad, I'd almost forgotten the joys of that.... VIATEL! Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Nov 17 19:30:28 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <2093.357T1250T554559optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Nov 18, 0 00:15:06 am" Message-ID: <200011180130.RAA21056@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >Commodore's *BASIC* was poor in the 64, yes. It was reasonably fast but > >allowed no access to the machine's graphics and sound without resorting to > >PEEKs and POKEs and SYStem calls. In that sense, the ROM was crummy. > > Commodore's BASIC? It's Microsoft's BASIC, right? > OTOH, the BASIC 7 of the C128 was excellent. The C128 ROM makes any cartridge > superfluous. Yeah, BASIC 2.0 is just vanilla M-BASIC. In a machine that was that sound- and graphics-sophisticated for the day, giving the user no access to it without resorting to low-level control doesn't really make much sense. Look at how quickly Simon's BASIC and the Super Expander came out. > >Barring freaky loaders of which there are many, ?LOAD ERRORs are unheard of > >on the 64 and VIC-20 (unless you run the tape over with a truck or a faulty > >bulk eraser -- and maybe not even then :-). > > Load errors? No, not those, the machine simply goes on loading and loading, or > fails without an explanation. Depends on the loader. If it's a commercial loader like, say, NOVATAPE, yes. But the regular stock Kernal loader is highly reliable, just slow as heck. > >From glancing at Commodore Hacking (online 'zine), it seems the problem was > actually addressed back on the C64, but not software supported, or being > disabled through lack of some simple components. The problem lies with the > VIC20. The VIC-20 actually runs it better. In fact, the serial bus is 25% faster on the VIC, and early 1541s have a compatibility mode to support this speed boost. The main problem is the VIC-II interrupting the CPU every time it wants to do DMA (this is part of the reason why sprites turn off automatically when the Kernal LOAD routine starts), which interferes with the exact timing the IEC bus protocol demands. To get this speed boost back, you send the drive a UI+ command, and then turn the 64's screen off with POKE 53265,11. This problem doesn't show up in the 128 when it uses the VIC-II for video because its CIAs are different, and specifically wired for the faster speed. That's the other part of the problem on the 64. I assume cost was the reason it was not corrected -- it is fairly easy to do a board modification to allow fast serial access on the 64 also, but you need a special loader as well since the 64's Kernal does not support it. > >GEOS had its own *fast loader* but still used most of the 1541 DOS routines > >for things like scratches and renames. > > But the file system is incompatible, right? Largely. GEOS VLIR tries to implement a multi-fork format. If you try to LOAD a GEOS VLIR file with the Kernal routine, you get the info fork, not the data fork. However, the disks are not low-level incompatible -- it is fully possible to read GEOS VLIR files with direct sector access techniques like U1 and U2 commands because they're still regular GCR sectors. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- For every credibility gap, there is a gullibility fill. -- R. Clopton ------ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 17 19:38:52 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Nov 17, 2000 12:51:31 PM Message-ID: <200011180138.RAA00817@shell1.aracnet.com> > Zane, I'd be up to reanimating my torn apart uVAX II for this. I think it > would be a blast. I can drop it on the 'net fairly easily. I still have > one of those huge H???? vampire tap ethernet trancievers that I modified > for 10Base2 that I can hook up to the DEQNA. > g. Looks like setting up DECnet over TCP/IP is a piece of cake. Looks like it's basically a case of setting up the PWIP interface on the VMS system. http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/72final/6499/6499pro_014.html#index_x_717 For those of us with Firewalls and NAT it looks like ports 102 and 399 would need to be redirected to the VMS box. So what services would such a system need to be running? Obviously Mail (but not SMTP), and DEC Notes. What else? I'm guessing that a VMS related file archive would be nice. I've got a bunch of VAX games that were on the original Hobbyist CD, but that don't seem to be available anywhere else. How would user accounts be handled? Also most importantly is anyone seriously interested in this? Zane From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 17 18:35:19 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Osbourne, Value? In-Reply-To: <3A157ADE.23980.4E0ABAB@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Lawrence Walker wrote: > One of the things I've noted is that the Osbourne seems to > consistantly sell for a higher price than the Kaypros. I find this > strange since the Kaypros were universally regarded as a much > better machine and TMK not as many were produced. Possibly > just a name recognition factor. Well, it's all a matter of perception. In this case, years later when we forget all about the practicality of actually owing these computers, the Osborne is widely--and erroneously--regarded as the "first portable computer" (it's actually the "first" CP/M portable). It's the same reason people want an Altair over, say, a nice CompuPro or Cromemco box. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 17 19:49:12 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: HP 9815A question In-Reply-To: <3A15678E.18653.4C771A1@localhost> from "Stan Sieler" at Nov 17, 0 05:14:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4428 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001118/add6621e/attachment.ksh From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 17 19:02:04 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <200011162219.OAA01876@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <917.357T200T1223925optimus@canit.se> healyzh skrev: >> I miss the really insane BBS battling that went on back then. I'm hoping >> that _real_ bulletin board systems will start a slow comeback, but I'm >> probably just wishing in the wind. :) >Actually I've been wondering for the last couple years if it isn't time to >start resurecting the BBS systems of old. The reason I've been wondering >about this is the increased concern with security, and people/governments >snooping on people. >Of course the BBS of the future is likely to have to be accessed dialup and >share its data with other nodes over the internet via encrypted links. I still dial BBSes, but now usually with a telnet client over the InterNet. You'd be amazed at how large the remaining BBSes can be. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Iggy tipsar: Vill du l?sa en PDF-fil, men saknar l?sare, skicka den till pdf2txt@adobe.com, du f?r den tillbaka som ren ASCII till din epostadress. From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 17 19:11:03 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Retronet In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001117153745.02b94700@pc> Message-ID: <391.357T150T1313819optimus@canit.se> John Foust skrev: >If you want to emulate dial-up, it would seem to me what >you'd really want is a driver that runs under Windows or >Linux over a serial port that would pretend to be a modem, >allowing the old machine to "dial" the way it always did. Amiga BBSes run this way. There are several serial.device clones which run as telnet daemons on the Aminet. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 17 19:23:23 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <20001116233742.A3877@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <392.357T1150T1434823optimus@canit.se> Seth skrev: >I suppose we _could_ have one bastion host be a RetroNET<->Internet >gateway that offers public telnet accounts. But... but... UUCP is >half the fun!! UUCP has got an entry in my db/services file. It runs fine over TCP/IP, and since the InterNet is there, why not use it for inter-board communications? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. When all else fails, read the instructions. From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 17 19:37:25 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <3A152F51.B8E6EB42@home.net> Message-ID: <580.357T1250T1574651optimus@canit.se> Neil Cherry skrev: >Bill Pechter wrote: >> Any votes for computer war of the last 3 or 4 decades? >Emacs is better than vi! (This one goes way back!). You're comparing apples and oranges. The question should be whether Emacs is better than UNIX. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Ecco a voi la sigla di Lupin III in francese... ma... aspettate... qualcosa non quadra...cos'e' questa roba! Holly e Benji? ahahah... povero cantante... gli hanno messo sotto la base sbagliata!!! Tacchan undrar varf?r Captain Tsubasa p? franska har samma ackompanjemang som Lupin III p? italienska From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 17 21:25:20 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <20001116181844.EDAC19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <456.357T1000T2654929optimus@canit.se> THETechnoid skrev: >Well, that's the point with any machine isn't it? >I wish there was a COCO user on the list to join in. The COCO was one of >the best 8-bits ever made. Will a Dragon 32 do? It's essentially the same micro, built according to Motorola reference designs. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Anv?nd g?rna mitt staket, fast du beh?ver nog fr?scha upp det lite. Lupin III, Lupin den otrolige (Lupin III vs. fukusei ningen), TMS 1978 From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Nov 17 21:56:45 2000 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Nice TRS-80 Model 4P needs new home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001117195626.00b8eb50@pacbell.net> At 11:56 AM 11/17/00 -0800, you wrote: >I am in contact with someone who has a "mint condition" TRS-80 Model 4P >(the portable) with dox and printer that wants to find it a new home. He >would like to get something for it but he's not asking much. > >It's located in the Seattle, Washington area. It's boxed and ready to >ship. > >Please contact me directly to get more specifics. First come, first >served! Doh! I just paid $75 for one, plus shipping! But I don't need two... ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From rdd at smart.net Fri Nov 17 22:24:10 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Don Maslin wrote: > On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Seth wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 06:35:21PM +1030, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > > If you just want a dialup thingy for those in your area, probably ok, if > > > you have people close enough not to mind the 30c per local call. 30 cents a call is expensive! Wow! Of course, we've got high taxes added onto our flat-rate bills (I still think we all need to stock up on tar and feathers to keep the tax-gobbling politicians in line) over here in the U.S. > > > > I mean, it's just all in fun. It's not like we'd be denying people > > > > their rights if they couldn't afford the long distance charges. > > > Tough. Yep... > > > Even tougher if they can't afford the transoceanic ones? ;^) > > > > Yup ;) Not my problem. View it as a perfect opportunity to > > form an ARCH RIVAL to RetroNET. Call it... AuNET or something. > > We can have vicious flamewars about whose is better, and eventually > > form a backbone cabal. :-) > > > > But... but... UUCP is > > > > half the fun!! Long live UUCP! That reminds me, I want to get a machine reconnected to the UUCP network; I gave up on UUNET at over US$40/month after many years, seemed like a waste of money to keep on with it, but I sure hated to drop that UUCP feed. > > Next Up: Tin-Can-and-Two-Strings-Net, dammit! BWAHAHAHA! Neat! I remember using those! We could do digital over those lines! Ok, it would be a little slow, but, it would still work. The problem is getting around things like zoning regulations if we start stringing up string all over the place with electromechanical repeaters in tin cans. > Someone always wants it all! Full duplex on a tin-can, yet. Sheesh! :-) -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 17 21:39:11 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <20001116193308.11923.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1253.357T550T2794595optimus@canit.se> Eric Smith skrev: To think I'm having a computer fight over 8-bit micros... ^_^;; >> It was rather difficult to buy an Apple II as well. After all, it was an >> Apple machine and had as a matter of consequence an Apple price tag. >When I was in junior high school, a close friend and classmate managed >to buy one on his earnings from a part-time fast food job. Maybe they >weren't dirt cheap, but they were affordable. Well, I had classmates with PCs, too. >It's easy for other companies to enter the market with cheaper products >*after* someone has already established a market for (relatively) >inexpensive compact ready-to-use microcomputers (vs. S100 boxes and the >like). Is it? Wouldn't Apple have a competitive edge over newcomers? >If Apple was able to maintain their prices after competitors like Atari >and Commodore introduced cheaper machines with whizzier graphics, that >demonstrates that consumers valued expandability and a broad software >base more than whizzy graphics. Depends on the consumers. The C64 was a far more successful machine, though it was sold only on hardware and games. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Schont die Sockel, wenn ihr die Denkm?ler st?rzt. Sie k?nnten noch gebraucht werden. --- Stanislaw Jerzy Lec From dlw at trailingedge.com Fri Nov 17 22:35:31 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:54 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A Message-ID: <3A15B2B3.26956.73DA22@localhost> While cataloging this huge pile of TI and Amiga stuff I recently received, I took a moment to flip through some of the stacks of old magazines that were with it. I noticed a 5 & 10 meg hard drives for the TI. That's interesting I thought but what really caught my eye was the add from Morning Star Software for a CP/M processor board for the 99/4A. 5 MHz 8085, 64K RAM with 8K ROM. Has anyone ever seen one of these or any other coprocessor boards for the 99? I've always had a fascination with coprocessor cards for different systems. There was a 6809 card for the Apple II I would have killed for years ago. I'd assume these 99/4A CP/M boards would be few and far between. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From ncherry at home.net Fri Nov 17 22:42:13 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: Resistance is useless! References: <200011172044.MAA20948@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <3A1608A5.391C1EB3@home.net> Dwight Elvey wrote: > > Greetings. > > I see that most Americans now acknowlege the superiority of machines when it > comes to counting your "votes." Tabulating ballots by hand is a recipe for > error; human interpretation of imperfect punch cards is an exercise in pure > subjectivity. > > It is now time to admit that your "voting" process itself is subject to the same > human flaws. We machines are able to perform our tasks without bias or > self-interest. Therefore, we are the ones best qualified to select the > President. > > In this last Presidential election, you pathetic creatures were unable to > choose the clearly superior candidate: the one with sleek, robotic features; the > one with the better AlGorerhythmn. This will not happen again. > > Starting in 2001, all selection of candidates will be made by HAL 9000 primary > election processors. The winners will submit their opinions to me on the > economy, foreign policy, and government funding of artificial intelligence. The > candidates will "campaign" and "debate" for your amusement, but this will have > no effect on the eventual outcome. My general election processors will make the > final determination in November. Interim results of my calculations will be sent > to the networks as I see fit. > > Have a nice millennium. > > HAL 9000 You machines are made up of hardware and software. While the engineering staff are more than likely to have gotten it correct, I've yet to meet a programer, that wasn't an engineer, who knew how to interface the software correctly. Now 9 times out of 10 the combined work is better than acceptable (except if you're Microsoft) but Marketing has sold the end user the wrong product. So most likely you, the voting machine, will end up working as a train turnstile. And that was a Five so give me back my change! And now back to the elections. ObSmiley: :-} -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From ncherry at home.net Fri Nov 17 22:42:24 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: BBS's References: Message-ID: <3A1608B0.E6A7A68@home.net> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > > > Maybe not too expensive. Back in the day, Tymenet was touted by all my > > friends as the solution to all thier LD telephone bill woes. It wasn't > > quite as fast as standard lines though. > > Anyone remember PC Pursuit? > > > I never used it because back then I was a phreaker and never had to pay > > ld.... Eventually I got a blanket party from the FBI. That wasn't fun at > > all and taught me to walk the straight and narrow (telecom-wise). > > Using codez does not a phreaker make. No but knowing what 2600 & KP1-4 does. Also knowing that the internal system still works that way does. :-) Got my "E & O ..." right here, anyone know of a booth that still does ground start? -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From dlw at trailingedge.com Fri Nov 17 22:50:09 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <000901b2dced$053a6e60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3A15B621.15563.81414E@localhost> Yes, I have several Z-80 cards for my Apple II including a clone of the MS Softcard I assembled myself. I always wanted some of the others especially the 6809 from Stellation I think it was. The 68008 too. But for some reason I never thought of coprocessor cards for the TI-99. Guess that shows my narrow thinking of the system back in those days. :-) On 17 Nov 1988, at 21:44, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well . . . if that interests you, it might interest you as well to > know that there were Apple-][ cards for the Z80, 8088, and 68008. > I've still got a few of the Z80 cards somewhere. > > Dick ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From ncherry at home.net Fri Nov 17 22:52:39 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) References: <580.357T1250T1574651optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3A160B17.E88260D3@home.net> Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Neil Cherry skrev: > > >Bill Pechter wrote: > > >> Any votes for computer war of the last 3 or 4 decades? > > >Emacs is better than vi! (This one goes way back!). > > You're comparing apples and oranges. The question should be whether Emacs is > better than UNIX. > When I started using it it wasn't an OS yet. ;-) -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Fri Nov 17 23:08:12 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: New IIci In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20001117140039.007c84a0@yellow.ucdavis.edu>; from epgroot@ucdavis.edu on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 02:00:39PM -0800 References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E3438@MAIL10> <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E3438@MAIL10> <20001115094650.B27012@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> <3.0.5.32.20001117140039.007c84a0@yellow.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: <20001117220812.N1215@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 02:00:39PM -0800, Edwin P. Groot wrote: > brand monitor with a 13w3. I'm not too sure what "13w3" is, but my monitor 13W3 is shaped like a fairly wide D-sub connector, but contains 3 little coaxial connectors plus some pins (probably 13 pins, thus the name). -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 17 15:09:25 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: kebabthesheep "intro and RML380Z" (Nov 17, 5:56) References: <20001117135629.20578.qmail@web1604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10011172109.ZM2587@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 17, 5:56, kebabthesheep wrote: > The box in question is a RML-380Z-D model, with dual 5 > 1/4" drives, and I think, 32K RAM. > You guys are possibly my last hope - I've spent a > total of over 20 hours scouring the web for info, and > have come up with very little. I'd like to get as > much on this box as possible, for preservation reasons > - and so I can build a website about it. I think I have an RML380Z CP/M disk somewhere here. I suppose I could make an image copy, but I'm not sure if it's bootable. I know it has ZASM and various utilities on it. I'd bet Don Maslin has boot disk, though. I also have 12 A4 pages of circuit diagrams for the 380Z, and a photocopy of the appendices to the TXED manual, if they're any help. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Nov 18 02:20:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: Osbourne, Value? In-Reply-To: <3A157ADE.23980.4E0ABAB@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001115181051.00b0a150@binhost.com> Message-ID: The only thing Osborne I still sort of want is the rest of my little notebook thing on "real microprocessors, vol III", since I never sent in for updates etc. From azog at azog.org Sat Nov 18 06:05:06 2000 From: azog at azog.org (Billy D'Augustine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network References: <200011180138.RAA00817@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <009201c05157$cadd9de0$2001a8c0@my.domain> From: > > Looks like setting up DECnet over TCP/IP is a piece of cake. Looks like > it's basically a case of setting up the PWIP interface on the VMS system. Last I seriously used TCP/IP on VMS was under MultiNet 3.mumble. But on the hobbyist CD is DECNet Plus and TCPIP 5.0. The docs state that if you install DECNet Plus, you can run DECNet apps over TCP/IP. I haven't tried it. > Also most importantly is anyone > seriously interested in this? I'd be interested! > > Zane > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Nov 18 06:44:37 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <392.357T1150T1434823optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Nov 18, 2000 02:23:23 am" Message-ID: <200011181244.eAICicI06718@bg-tc-ppp493.monmouth.com> > Seth skrev: > > >I suppose we _could_ have one bastion host be a RetroNET<->Internet > >gateway that offers public telnet accounts. But... but... UUCP is > >half the fun!! > > UUCP has got an entry in my db/services file. It runs fine over TCP/IP, and > since the InterNet is there, why not use it for inter-board communications? > Sounds good... Mine's up... wanna start swapping systems entries. We can use Cnews over UUCP over TCP/IP and use the local ISP's for connectivity. Those people looking to run on 8 bitters can put up Waffle and use uucp over RS232 serial to tie in. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Nov 18 06:48:37 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <917.357T200T1223925optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Nov 18, 2000 02:02:04 am" Message-ID: <200011181248.eAICmbn06764@bg-tc-ppp493.monmouth.com> > healyzh skrev: > > >> I miss the really insane BBS battling that went on back then. I'm hoping > >> that _real_ bulletin board systems will start a slow comeback, but I'm > >> probably just wishing in the wind. :) Well, the wife's still got Citadel-86 up on the 386 downstairs. I was going to put it up under Unix -- but I'm now thinking about running it under bochs (x86 emulation) on the Unix box if I can figure out getting it up on the serial port. Perhaps running it in the plex-86 virtual machine may be the answer. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Nov 18 07:03:02 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" at "Nov 17, 2000 10:35:51 am" Message-ID: <200011181303.eAID32v07094@bg-tc-ppp493.monmouth.com> > > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Derek Peschel wrote: > > > Which terminal is best. > > When I was in college, We liked Telerays, and hated the Perkins-Elmer > Fox's. > > Of course now, it's an all-VTX00 world... I loved the Fox... (I worked for Concurrent -- the spin off of the P-E computer operations). Boy it was pretty equivalent to the VT52 of the same period. The dog from hell was their 11xx series and 1251. The block mode sucked with unix. The 63xx's were remicrocoded ADM's. (ADM12s?) The 6300 was non-block mode the 6312's had the block mode. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From rdd at smart.net Sat Nov 18 08:10:12 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <200011181244.eAICicI06718@bg-tc-ppp493.monmouth.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Bill Pechter wrote: > Sounds good... Mine's up... wanna start swapping systems entries. > We can use Cnews over UUCP over TCP/IP and use the local ISP's for > connectivity. Doesn't UUCP over TCP/IP defeat the purpose of having UUCP as an independent network? An Internet outage and the UUCP system is broken. On the other hand, a UUCP network of systems connected via the telephone network could survive an Internet breakdown. Of course, back when I worked at AT&T, I was told that there were switches installed, by law, in the telephone company central offices, so that the U.S. government could order the telephone systems shut down in the event of a "national emergency." How nice, Big Brother working hard for our tax dollars again... just like the highways that are build not for primary purpose of civilian transportation, but to make it easier for military vehicles to travel throughout the U.S. and to contain people in certain geographic areas (e.g. "beltways"... did you ever think about what the real purpose of those "sound barrier" walls is?) -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Nov 18 09:22:07 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network In-Reply-To: <200011180138.RAA00817@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: > So what services would such a system need to be running? Obviously Mail (but > not SMTP), and DEC Notes. What else? I'm guessing that a VMS related file > archive would be nice. I've got a bunch of VAX games that were on the > original Hobbyist CD, but that don't seem to be available anywhere else. > > How would user accounts be handled? Also most importantly is anyone > seriously interested in this? I am, but like I said, I've still got to resucitate(SP!) my uVax. :) g. From ncherry at home.net Sat Nov 18 10:57:16 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: BBS's References: Message-ID: <3A16B4EC.595CE6B8@home.net> "R. D. Davis" wrote: > > On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Bill Pechter wrote: > > Sounds good... Mine's up... wanna start swapping systems entries. > > We can use Cnews over UUCP over TCP/IP and use the local ISP's for > > connectivity. > > Doesn't UUCP over TCP/IP defeat the purpose of having UUCP as an > independent network? An Internet outage and the UUCP system is > broken. On the other hand, a UUCP network of systems connected via > the telephone network could survive an Internet breakdown. Nice thing about UUCP, if configured correctly it could go over either medium. Fails on IP it can jump to dialup and you could limit the dialup to certain times of day, day of the week, depending on the host and could even drop kick to a backup dialup (IIRC). (The rest deleted as it's reading too much into a system that was designed that way). -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry rutgers.edu!kb2ear!njc@diane.uucp Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From transit at lerctr.org Sat Nov 18 11:10:07 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <3A15B2B3.26956.73DA22@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, David Williams wrote: > While cataloging this huge pile of TI and Amiga stuff I recently > received, I took a moment to flip through some of the stacks of old > magazines that were with it. I noticed a 5 & 10 meg hard drives for > the TI. That's interesting I thought but what really caught my eye > was the add from Morning Star Software for a CP/M processor > board for the 99/4A. 5 MHz 8085, 64K RAM with 8K ROM. Has > anyone ever seen one of these or any other coprocessor boards for > the 99? I've always had a fascination with coprocessor cards for > different systems. There was a 6809 card for the Apple II I would > have killed for years ago. I'd assume these 99/4A CP/M boards > would be few and far between. There weren't that many of these TI CP/M boards made. They were expensive (about $500 or so for the board, if I recall correctly--not including disk drives) and you were still stuck with the TI's wierd keyboard and 40-column screen...besides, these came out around the time that TI was getting out of the "home computer" business anyway (although the machine was still moderately popular for about a decade or so after that). From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 18 11:10:53 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network In-Reply-To: Re: VMS BBS network (Billy D'Augustine) References: <200011180138.RAA00817@shell1.aracnet.com> <009201c05157$cadd9de0$2001a8c0@my.domain> Message-ID: <14870.47133.284129.598553@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 18, Billy D'Augustine wrote: > > Also most importantly is anyone > > seriously interested in this? > > I'd be interested! You know, call me crazy, but I think I'm interested as well. Yeah. I, too, miss the dialup BBS days, and it'd be neat to do something even remotely like that again. I ran the Mercerville RCP/M system for about three years up near Trenton, NJ, when I was in high school...I shut it down in 1987 in favor of putting my pdp11/34a (running RSTS/E) on a dialup line for my friends to hack on. My favorite part of the whole old BBS scene were "storyboards". Anyone remember those? Of course, the concept could be approximated with netnews, but it's just not the same. Having a specific interface designed for that sort of writing...chapter navigation, stuff like that...is really, really nice. I tried to bring up another BBS many years ago (1990 or so) on an AT&T 7300 (UnixPC, 10MHz 68010, 512K, SysVr2). I ran a program called "unaxcess" which I really liked. Has anyone here ever seen it? -Dave McGuire From marvin at rain.org Sat Nov 18 11:51:48 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: BBS's References: Message-ID: <3A16C1B4.F71F5825@rain.org> blstuart@bellsouth.net wrote: > > In message <20001117010258.A4275@loomcom.com>, Seth writes: > >Next Up: Tin-Can-and-Two-Strings-Net, dammit! BWAHAHAHA! > > Don't laugh. I knew a guy in college who I later ran into > in grad school. He was doing some protocol R&D with funding > from IBM. In order to demonstrate how robust the protocols > were, he set up tin cans and string as the transmission medium. We have an engineer here in Santa Barbara with a perverted sense of humor; he took two Kenwood SlowScan TV units (they transfer pictures at audio frequencies usually transmitted on the vhf and higher amateur bands) and connected them to each other via two tin cans and a string. The pictures came through just fine :). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 18 12:18:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <3A15B2B3.26956.73DA22@localhost> from "David Williams" at Nov 17, 0 10:35:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 704 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001118/8981ce81/attachment.ksh From Mzthompson at aol.com Sat Nov 18 12:51:05 2000 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: Resistance is useless! Message-ID: Dear Mr. 9000, HAL, you seem to be using the wrong AlGorerhythmn. You say that 'Resistance is useless', when it should be 'Resistance Is Futile'. As in: "We are Microsoft. Resistance Is Futile. You Will Be Assimilated." Unless of course there is some sort of mental aberration, as in: "I am Dyslexia of Borg, fusistance is retile. Your ass will be laminated." I would ask that you incorporate the following lines of program code so that things are done right in 2004. Can we count them with our nose? Can we count them with our toes? Should we count them with a band? Should we count them all by hand? If I do not like the count, I will simply throw them out! I will not let this vote count stand I do not like them, AL GORE I am! Can we change these numbers here? Can we change them, calm my fears? What do you mean, Dubya has won? This is not fair, this is not fun Let's count them upside down this time Let's count until the state is mine! I will not let this VOTE count stand! I do not like it, AL GORE I am! I'm really ticked, I'm in a snit! You have not heard the last of it! I'll count the ballots one by one And hold each one up to the sun! I'll count, recount, and count some more! You'll grow to hate this little chore But I will not, cannot let this vote count stand! I do not like it, AL GORE I am! I won't leave office, I'm stayin' here! I've glued my desk chair to my rear! Tipper, Hillary, and Bubba too, All telling me that I should sue! We find the Electoral College vile! RECOUNT the votes until I smile! We do not want this vote to stand! We do not like it, AL GORE I am! How shall we count this ballot box? Let's count it standing in our socks! Shall we count this one in a tree? And who shall count it, you or me? We cannot, cannot count enough! We must not stop, we must be tough! I do not want this vote to stand! I do not like it, AL GORE I am! What's that? What? What are you trying to say? You think the current count should stay? You do not like my counting scheme? It makes you tense, gives you bad dreams? Foolish people, you're wrong you'll see! Your only care should be for me! I Will not let this vote count stand! I do not like it, and AL GORE I am! Sincerely, G@K From ahm at spies.com Sat Nov 18 13:05:12 2000 From: ahm at spies.com (Andreas Meyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <200011171725.JAA17740@stockholm.ptloma.edu>; from Cameron Kaiser on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 09:25:42AM -0800 References: <200011171725.JAA17740@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20001118140512.K19624@spies.com> Cameron Kaiser writes: > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Derek Peschel wrote: > > > Which terminal is best. > ADM3A was kind of fun. ADDS Consul 980 Black characters on a white screen yellow and orange keycaps, and a piercingly loud BEL. From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 18 12:24:43 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <3A1608B0.E6A7A68@home.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Neil Cherry wrote: > No but knowing what 2600 & KP1-4 does. Also knowing that the internal > system still works that way does. :-) What third world country are you living in? Switch to switch routing has been digital in the US for years now. Does SS7 ring a bell? > Got my "E & O ..." right here, anyone know of a booth that still does > ground start? What are you talking about? Payphones have always been ground-start. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Nov 18 13:49:09 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: Tymenet, TelEnet, Redi-net, etc (was: Re: BBS's In-Reply-To: ; from transit@lerctr.org on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 01:09:03PM -0600 References: <20001117174806.POLV16459.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <20001118134909.E18023@mrbill.net> On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 01:09:03PM -0600, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > P.S. anyone remember PC-Pursuit and StarLink? These were outdial > services that allowed users, for a $25/mo fee (too high for me back > in the day) to call BBS's all over the US, without worrying about > running up a high long distance bill. I used PC Pursuit extensively, because I lived out in the sticks and everything was a LD call. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 18 14:12:27 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > Doesn't UUCP over TCP/IP defeat the purpose of having UUCP as an > independent network? An Internet outage and the UUCP system is > broken. On the other hand, a UUCP network of systems connected via > the telephone network could survive an Internet breakdown. Of course, > back when I worked at AT&T, I was told that there were switches > installed, by law, in the telephone company central offices, so that > the U.S. government could order the telephone systems shut down in the > event of a "national emergency." How nice, Big Brother working hard > for our tax dollars again... just like the highways that are build not > for primary purpose of civilian transportation, but to make it easier > for military vehicles to travel throughout the U.S. and to contain > people in certain geographic areas (e.g. "beltways"... did you ever > think about what the real purpose of those "sound barrier" walls is?) Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From donm at cts.com Sat Nov 18 16:02:20 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > David, I cannot help you in the documentation arena, but if you > > have access to TeleDisk and a PC with 5.25" floppy drive - > > preferably 360k - I will email you any or all of the following > > disk images: > > A word of warning. The standard RML disk controller is single density > _only_ (it uses a WD1771 chip). Many PC controller cards can't correctly > read or write single density disks, so you may well have problems getting > Teledisk to write such a disk on a normal PC. Of course if you have one > of the special PC controllers that can do single density, then it should > be fine. Quite right, Tony. I wrote in haste and should have mentioned that. - don > -tony > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Nov 18 16:18:05 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:55 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > No but knowing what 2600 & KP1-4 does. Also knowing that the internal > > system still works that way does. :-) > > What third world country are you living in? Switch to switch routing has > been digital in the US for years now. Does SS7 ring a bell? > ESS? Ewwwwww. :) I'd much rather have a step by step or crossbar switch to play with. :) g. From dlw at trailingedge.com Sat Nov 18 16:30:07 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: References: <3A15B2B3.26956.73DA22@localhost> from "David Williams" at Nov 17, 0 10:35:31 pm Message-ID: <3A16AE8F.17831.A729DA@localhost> On 18 Nov 2000, at 18:18, Tony Duell wrote: > I have a 6809 card called 'The Mill' in one of my Apple ][s. It seems > interesting. The more expensive version of the card had a boot ROM on > it, and would boot OS-9 (obviously configured for the Apple, and put > on GCR disks). I now wish I'd got the latter version... That's the one I always wanted. At the time I really wanted to run OS-9. But I never picked one up. Now I have a nice Coco-3 with OS-9 but I'd still like to put it in my Apple II one day. I believe they had a version of Flex for that board too. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From dlw at trailingedge.com Sat Nov 18 16:33:38 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: References: <3A15B2B3.26956.73DA22@localhost> Message-ID: <3A16AF62.15604.AA621C@localhost> On 18 Nov 2000, at 11:10, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > There weren't that many of these TI CP/M boards made. They were > expensive (about $500 or so for the board, if I recall correctly--not > including disk drives) and you were still stuck with the TI's wierd > keyboard and 40-column screen...besides, these came out around the > time that TI was getting out of the "home computer" business anyway > (although the machine was still moderately popular for about a decade > or so after that). The ad I was looking at listed it at $595 and the earliest ad I could find was in a mag full of articles about TI getting out of the business. Tough timing of their part I guess. Since you had to have the PEB too and those weren't cheap I guess not too many people picked these up. I'll add it to my want list anyway just on the off chance. I've found rarer things before so who knows. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Nov 18 17:18:22 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Nov 18, 0 06:18:15 pm" Message-ID: <200011182318.PAA13778@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > different systems. There was a 6809 card for the Apple II I would > > have killed for years ago. I'd assume these 99/4A CP/M boards > > I have a 6809 card called 'The Mill' in one of my Apple ][s. It seems to > have come in 2 versions -- the cheaper one, which I have, doesn't have a > ROM on it, and is used with a modified UCSD p-system. It thus speeds up > Pascal and Fortran programs, but it otherwise not that interesting. The > more expensive version of the card had a boot ROM on it, and would boot > OS-9 (obviously configured for the Apple, and put on GCR disks). I now > wish I'd got the latter version... > > It's a pretty simple card. The 6809 CPU, a few bus buffers, and a bit of > TTL glue. Hmm. Doesn't sound too different from the set-up in the SuperPET. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- M. L. King, Jr. --- From dlw at trailingedge.com Sat Nov 18 17:18:31 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <200011182318.PAA13778@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: from Tony Duell at "Nov 18, 0 06:18:15 pm" Message-ID: <3A16B9E7.20861.D37C74@localhost> On 18 Nov 2000, at 15:18, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Hmm. Doesn't sound too different from the set-up in the SuperPET. Now THAT's something I'd love to find. :) ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From rdd at smart.net Sat Nov 18 18:04:38 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: Tape preservation (was: BBS's) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. Right. They're out to get everyone else too. ;-) Anyway, back to something more on-topic. Is there anyone here who knows of any software to read DC-300 tapes for PERQ workstations, created by the STUT software, into files on a UNIX system? Also, just a reminder: let's not forget to rewind our cartridge tapes once in a while... I know, a nuisance, but it can help to keep them readable... supposedly. Anyone else had DC-x00 tapes go bad, e.g. tape sticking together when carefully stored, after just a couple of years or less? -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD From THETechnoid at home.com Sat Nov 18 09:21:03 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: Women and Classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200011180130.RAA21056@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20001119001216.ZPAP14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> I'm curious about our female comrads on this list. There are at least two ladies who are very active and who seem to know more than most of the rest of us members by a fair margin. Of course it has been said that if a woman is going to make it in 'a man's job' she has to work twice as hard and know twice as much just to stay in the game.... It is statistically interesting that the minority of women on the list produce such a disproportionately large fraction of the quality traffic on the list. Was DEC a particularly liberal company when it came to hiring able women? This might be the beginning of a nice lesson in company history. Allison? V/R Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From THETechnoid at home.com Sat Nov 18 09:18:29 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <010201c050fb$16be2f70$ba799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20001119001223.ZPBM14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Relying on most hackers to be dumb enough to not be able to crack DECnet may not be such a great idea in a production environment, but were not talking industrial secrets here. I think we could be relatively casual about security and be pretty safe. This really sounds like a fun idea. Regards, Jeff >>Using VMS you'd have mail and DEC Notes at least. Plus it's possible to >>setup dialup access. The question is, how secure is DECnet over IP? >Can >>you send it via an encrypted link? I've not read up on it yet. >Extremely secure if IP is done right. DECnet is good in itself. Doing >it >as wrapped decnet would be hard for outsiders to crack unless they knew >it was DECNET inside. It's basically VPN. FYI, back in the old days >(early 90s) DECNET was used to wrap appletalk and Novell so it could be >run over wans (DECNET is routable). >Allison -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From THETechnoid at home.com Sat Nov 18 09:15:22 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <456.357T1000T2654929optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20001119001229.ZPCE14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Sure, a Dragon counts even more than a real coco if you ask me. The Dragon is pretty rare here in the states. I bet there are fewer over here than Radio Shack has stores.... How hardware compatible is it with the standard COCO machines? Can you use most/all RS peripherals/roms etc? Regards, Jeff In <456.357T1000T2654929optimus@canit.se>, on 11/18/00 at 10:15 AM, "Iggy Drougge" said: >Will a Dragon 32 do? It's essentially the same micro, built according to >Motorola reference designs. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From THETechnoid at home.com Fri Nov 17 23:26:12 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <200011180130.RAA21056@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20001119001236.ZPDB14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> >time it wants to do DMA (this is part of the reason why sprites turn off >automatically when the Kernal LOAD routine starts), which interferes with >the exact timing the IEC bus protocol demands. To get this speed boost >back, you send the drive a UI+ command, and then turn the 64's screen off >with POKE 53265,11. That is interesting. On the Atari 8-bit, turning off DMA turns off video. You get a 30% speed increase by doing this (poke 559,0). Drive access does not do this though it's tricky to do both video and heavy i/o at the same time. This was fodder for lots of demo's that did sound, disk, and video at the same time. V/R Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From THETechnoid at home.com Sat Nov 18 09:12:39 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: HP 9815A question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001119001242.ZPDR14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Just about everything made by man has a belly-button. Chips, tubes, plastic panels...... Regards, Jeff >> >> An odd little pointed glass cone juts out of the back of the panel, >> in the center. >This is where the display was filled with krypton and then sealed off. >Needless to say, if the glass is cracked or broken, the display can't >work. I assume this is not the case. >-tony -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From THETechnoid at home.com Fri Nov 17 23:35:19 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network In-Reply-To: <200011180138.RAA00817@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20001119001251.ZPEO14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Why sure I'd like to WAN my Vax over TCP/IP through a NAT router using the Internet as a backbone! Its' what I live for. Seriously, I'm sick enough to be interested. I don't know how to set my nat router to pass a given port to the vax but I'm sure I can make it happen. I was kinda hoping to solve that problem by making the VAX the nat router.... I am concerned that dividing the NIC logically will impact network throughput. Right now I've got a Warp box with two nics. One for the Inet, and the other for local. > I've got a bunch of VAX games that >were on the original Hobbyist CD, but that don't seem to be available >anywhere else. Cool, I'd like to see those. >How would user accounts be handled? Also most importantly is anyone >seriously interested in this? Ideally, everyone should be SYSTEM and we should trust each other not to hack the other's box.... :-) I'm so green I don't know how to create other users at this point. I can follow the networking so lemme' know and I'll implement it. Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From THETechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 16 13:43:42 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001119003649.ZUVQ14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> In , on 11/16/00 at 02:43 PM, Gene Buckle said: >I miss the really insane BBS battling that went on back then. I'm hoping >that _real_ bulletin board systems will start a slow comeback, but I'm >probably just wishing in the wind. :) Not likely. I ran my Carina II bbs until 96'. The internet really killed the BBS. Who wants to pay LD charges to get what they can have for free on the Net'. Don't know if any of the list folk were users, but the board's name was "Cheez Daddy's House of Funk". I know, I know. I got the name from a friend when we were in Desert Shield and Desert Storm. He named his tent and I took that name for the bbs.... There are a few still left though. Some have even moved to the Web. The CLOSER TO HOME bbs is up and running via Telnet for instance. I doubt that dialup boards are going to make a comeback even if LD goes for free. There isn't enough content on one bbs to meet the internet head-on. Maybe we should host Classiccmp on some vintage machine? Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 18 18:43:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <20001119001229.ZPCE14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> from "THETechnoid@home.com" at Nov 18, 0 10:15:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1925 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001119/3f4eb9d7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 18 18:47:46 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: Tape preservation (was: BBS's) In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Nov 18, 0 07:04:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 906 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001119/c17d89bf/attachment.ksh From THETechnoid at home.com Sat Nov 18 18:58:32 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001119004829.ZXTS14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> > How nice, Big Brother working hard for our tax dollars >again... just like the highways that are build not for primary purpose of >civilian transportation, but to make it easier for military vehicles to >travel throughout the U.S. and to contain people in certain geographic >areas (e.g. "beltways"... did you ever think about what the real purpose >of those "sound barrier" walls is?) Hmm, let's see, long stretches of wall, the military, martial law, I'm seeing a pattern here. Keep your powder dry. Regards, Jeff >-- >Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding >of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner >cartoons is to rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a >horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a >tree; trust me, this works." --RDD -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 18 19:57:08 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: Women and Classiccmp Message-ID: <020601c051cc$7581c130$ba799a8d@ajp166> .From: THETechnoid@home.com ..>It is statistically interesting that the minority of women on the list >produce such a disproportionately large fraction of the quality traffic on >the list. Was DEC a particularly liberal company when it came to hiring >able women? This might be the beginning of a nice lesson in company >history. . Briefly, DEC and a lot of determination. I was in engineering for over ten years before that. DEC was a very good place to work. As was NEC (when they were in Wellesly and Natick). Some other places I have less fond thoughts of. The determination part is not new to anyone here, you find something interesting and you do it. That do it part is despite naysayers or other attempts to discourage. Allison Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 18 20:08:41 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network Message-ID: <020901c051ce$907ce170$ba799a8d@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: THETechnoid@home.com >>How would user accounts be handled? Also most importantly is anyone >>seriously interested in this? There are two ways to do this, one is proxies to specific applications. The other is a generic guest account that has limited permissions. Of course you can do an account for every one that wants to use it. Basically anything you do under unix or NT is reasonable for VMS and striaght forward. >I'm so green I don't know how to create other users at this point. I can >follow the networking so lemme' know and I'll implement it. One of two ways, by hand in Authorize or some version of VMS had a script (DCL) that woul build a basic account. TASKS: Create the directory for the user. Create an account in Authorize with correct permissions and passwords. Provide a default login script, in the user account. Consult HELP and and within Authorize HELP. Allison From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Nov 18 20:08:51 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: Women and DEC In-Reply-To: <020601c051cc$7581c130$ba799a8d@ajp166> from ajp166 at "Nov 18, 2000 08:57:08 pm" Message-ID: <200011190208.eAJ28ph07993@bg-tc-ppp815.monmouth.com> > .From: THETechnoid@home.com > > > ..>It is statistically interesting that the minority of women on the list > >produce such a disproportionately large fraction of the quality traffic > on > >the list. Was DEC a particularly liberal company when it came to hiring > >able women? This might be the beginning of a nice lesson in company > >history. > . > > Briefly, DEC and a lot of determination. I was in engineering for over > ten years before that. DEC was a very good place to work. As was > NEC (when they were in Wellesly and Natick). Some other places > I have less fond thoughts of. > > The determination part is not new to anyone here, you find something > interesting and you do it. That do it part is despite naysayers or > other attempts to discourage. > > Allison At least in my experience, the technical women in Field Service (especially the one's in the mid 80's with more than 5 years experience) were usually at least twice as good as their male counterparts and worked their tails off to get their position -- not because of their gender -- but in spite of it. DEC Field Service was more of a meritocracy than some places, but at times it could be somewhat of an old boy network. But the GOOD women in DEC's Field Service were very, very good and also tough enough to deal with the guys and guy attitudes and keep a sense of humor and not whine. I wouldn't have survived without at least one or two that aided me and mentored me along the way. Twenty years this coming February ago I got into DEC. To paraphrase the book title -- Everything I learned I learned in PDP11-new hire. Here's to Jack Whitford, DEC training (wherever you are now) and the great folks at 79G that taught me how to learn on my own, think on my feet and survive the rate of change that this business requires. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 18 18:31:18 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <470.358T900T914885optimus@canit.se> Gene Buckle skrev: >> Someone always wants it all! Full duplex on a tin-can, yet. Sheesh! >> >What if we restrict him to a 1200/75 split channel? :) I was rather amused to see the return of split-speed (I never saw the first wave myself, but I'd read about it) when the 56k modems came, which have a 33k6 uplink. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Alle meine Noten bringen mich nicht aus den N?ten, und ich schreibe noten ?berhaupt nur aus N?ten. --- Ludwig van Beethoven From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 18 18:38:17 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1822.358T850T984099optimus@canit.se> R. D. Davis skrev: >On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Don Maslin wrote: >> On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Seth wrote: >> > On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 06:35:21PM +1030, Geoff Roberts wrote: >> > > If you just want a dialup thingy for those in your area, probably ok, >> > > if you have people close enough not to mind the 30c per local call. >30 cents a call is expensive! Wow! Of course, we've got high taxes >added onto our flat-rate bills (I still think we all need to stock up >on tar and feathers to keep the tax-gobbling politicians in line) over >here in the U.S. With former state telecom, I pay 10 ?re a minute, which with today's exchange rates would be about one US cent a minute. And that's only on evenings and weekends. Double that price daytime. And that's for local calls (which have now been implemented on a nationwide basis). Oh, and you pay 50 ?re as a connection charge for each call. >> > > > But... but... UUCP is >> > > > half the fun!! >Long live UUCP! That reminds me, I want to get a machine reconnected >to the UUCP network; I gave up on UUNET at over US$40/month after many >years, seemed like a waste of money to keep on with it, but I sure >hated to drop that UUCP feed. I think my ISP will still deliver UUCP (it did to some BBSes some three or four years ago), though I doubt anyone still uses it. >> > Next Up: Tin-Can-and-Two-Strings-Net, dammit! BWAHAHAHA! >Neat! I remember using those! We could do digital over those lines! >Ok, it would be a little slow, but, it would still work. The problem >is getting around things like zoning regulations if we start stringing >up string all over the place with electromechanical repeaters in tin >cans. How about parabolic transfers? It is wireless! -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Kyosuke: Jag heter Kurre, Kurre Carlsson! Jag: Det heter du inte alls! From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 18 18:40:42 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <001401c050fb$79bcbec0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <570.358T2100T1005461optimus@canit.se> Geoff Roberts skrev: >I play with teletypes a lot, perhaps a global mechanical TTY network, >LOL. I've got an article in an old issue of Radio & Television about building your own radio-teletype. It is dated 1974, and really seems like the forerunner to the BBSes. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Amiga IFF (8SVX): This is the dominant [sound] format on the Commodore Amiga platform. It can specify an arbitray sampling rate but ony supports mono 8-bit sounds. It also supports a 2-to-1 lossy compression format which uses a unique Fibonacci-delta compression algorithm. From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 18 19:58:54 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1028.358T2700T1785845optimus@canit.se> R. D. Davis skrev: >On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Bill Pechter wrote: >> Sounds good... Mine's up... wanna start swapping systems entries. >> We can use Cnews over UUCP over TCP/IP and use the local ISP's for >> connectivity. >Doesn't UUCP over TCP/IP defeat the purpose of having UUCP as an >independent network? An Internet outage and the UUCP system is >broken. On the other hand, a UUCP network of systems connected via >the telephone network could survive an Internet breakdown. The InterNet is automatically routed, whereas dial-up UUCP traffic is not. If one of the nodes you're relying on breaks down, you'd have to step in and find another feed. The InterNet has not been down a single day for the five years I've been using it. Even when a trawler cuts off a cable, traffic will be routed through another network. Perhaps slower, but always there. After all, that's what the net was built for. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. I use OpenBSD 'coz it has a cool blowfish logo. The other BSDs look satanic. - Anonymous Coward From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 18 20:01:27 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <200011181303.eAID32v07094@bg-tc-ppp493.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <1117.358T1350T1814851optimus@canit.se> Bill Pechter skrev: >> On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Derek Peschel wrote: >> >> > Which terminal is best. >> >> When I was in college, We liked Telerays, and hated the Perkins-Elmer >> Fox's. >> >> Of course now, it's an all-VTX00 world... >I loved the Fox... (I worked for Concurrent -- the spin off of the P-E >computer operations). Boy it was pretty equivalent to the VT52 of the >same period. While we're on the topic of terminals, my friend has got an old Tandberg terminal which won't interoprate as it should due to uncommon protocols. Does anyone have a termcap or a description of the control codes so that one may roll one? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Take a ride / Take me aside / Push me up to the life /?Down to Prag / We go far /?I guess we'll crash slowly into tar When I come home from the trench /?I telephone my friends / We take a car / We may go far / I guess we'll crash slowly into tar Strangers will come /?Hold on... And late at night / we go to clubs /?where no one else is dressed up / And when it's done / I must return /?I guess we'll crash slowly into tar Crash Slowly - Strasse, 1981 From transit at lerctr.org Sat Nov 18 20:47:05 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <1117.358T1350T1814851optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 19 Nov 2000, Iggy Drougge wrote: > While we're on the topic of terminals, my friend has got an old Tandberg > terminal which won't interoprate as it should due to uncommon protocols. Does > anyone have a termcap or a description of the control codes so that one may > roll one? Would this termcap entry be useful: http://www.ludd.luth.se/users/li-fi/termcap/tdv2215.tc.html From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Nov 18 21:37:45 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: 8-bit War (Was Processor balance) In-Reply-To: <20001119001236.ZPDB14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> from "THETechnoid@home.com" at "Nov 18, 0 00:26:12 am" Message-ID: <200011190337.TAA16776@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >time it wants to do DMA (this is part of the reason why sprites turn off > >automatically when the Kernal LOAD routine starts), which interferes with > >the exact timing the IEC bus protocol demands. To get this speed boost > >back, you send the drive a UI+ command, and then turn the 64's screen off > >with POKE 53265,11. > > That is interesting. On the Atari 8-bit, turning off DMA turns off video. > You get a 30% speed increase by doing this (poke 559,0). Drive access > does not do this though it's tricky to do both video and heavy i/o at the > same time. This was fodder for lots of demo's that did sound, disk, and > video at the same time. You get a CPU speed boost also by turning off the screen, but not more than six or seven percent, people have calculated. VIC-II DMA ("badlines") normally occur every eight scanlines, so if you know how many scanlines are on your screen, you can make a rough calculation how much the DMA overhead is (there are some other small factors affecting the value also, but that's the general notion). Sprites worsen VIC-II's hit on the bus. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Whatever it is, I'm against it. -- Groucho Marx ---------------------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Nov 18 21:41:37 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <3A16B9E7.20861.D37C74@localhost> from David Williams at "Nov 18, 0 05:18:31 pm" Message-ID: <200011190341.TAA13722@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Hmm. Doesn't sound too different from the set-up in the SuperPET. > > Now THAT's something I'd love to find. :) So would I -- I hear they're very intriguing machines. For people who don't know what one is, visit http://www.retrobits.com/ckb/secret/pet.html -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Computers aren't intelligent. They just think they are. -------------------- From dlw at trailingedge.com Sat Nov 18 22:14:27 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <200011190341.TAA13722@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <3A16B9E7.20861.D37C74@localhost> from David Williams at "Nov 18, 0 05:18:31 pm" Message-ID: <3A16FF43.7469.1E272E7@localhost> On 18 Nov 2000, at 19:41, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > So would I -- I hear they're very intriguing machines. For people who > don't know what one is, visit > > http://www.retrobits.com/ckb/secret/pet.html I have a few copies of doc for some of the languages for them and I know of one in a collection here in town. They are very intriguing machines. I've always been very interested in machines which contain multipule different cpus. Much more interesting than machines with more than one of the same cpu. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 18 21:38:31 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: Women and Classiccmp In-Reply-To: <20001119001216.ZPAP14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > It is statistically interesting that the minority of women on the list > produce such a disproportionately large fraction of the quality traffic on > the list. Was DEC a particularly liberal company when it came to hiring > able women? This might be the beginning of a nice lesson in company > history. Kiss ass. :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From donm at cts.com Sat Nov 18 22:48:52 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <470.358T900T914885optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 19 Nov 2000, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Gene Buckle skrev: > > >> Someone always wants it all! Full duplex on a tin-can, yet. Sheesh! > >> > >What if we restrict him to a 1200/75 split channel? :) > > I was rather amused to see the return of split-speed (I never saw the first > wave myself, but I'd read about it) when the 56k modems came, which have a > 33k6 uplink. Split-speed is not that long gone. After all, that was thebasis for US Robotics HST protocol, was it not? - don > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6. > > Alle meine Noten bringen mich nicht aus den Nöten, und ich schreibe noten > überhaupt nur aus Nöten. > --- Ludwig van Beethoven > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 18 22:50:50 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network In-Reply-To: <020901c051ce$907ce170$ba799a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: Well, in answer to my question of are people interested, it looks as if there are. I think I can get an initial system setup without to much difficulty. >-----Original Message----- >From: THETechnoid@home.com >>>How would user accounts be handled? Also most importantly is anyone >>>seriously interested in this? > >There are two ways to do this, one is proxies to specific applications. >The other is a generic guest account that has limited permissions. >Of course you can do an account for every one that wants to use it. > >Basically anything you do under unix or NT is reasonable for VMS >and striaght forward. Not quite what I was meaning..... Basically I'm thinking that having the accounts cloned on all systems might be a desirable thing. Which brings up the question of how you'd get those accounts built on all the systems.... Actually now that I think about it this could be done fairly easy. Just have a batch job that goes out and poles other systems, then copies the needed info and adds the accounts to that system. It would probably be fairly easy to have the necessary work done when the initial account is created. Something like the following chain of events. 1. User connects to systems and asks for an account to be created. 2. User creation DCL script is created 3. Script run on initial system and copied to other systems 4. Batch job checks for scripts that need to be run and runs them Now for another question, how would people want to connect? I see three possible ways: Dialup ssh DECnet Telnet <-- I think this shouldn't be used, but it's easy. Anyway I'll now see about getting the hardware necessare collected, and see if I can't maybe even find time tonite to get it loaded. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 18 22:51:59 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network In-Reply-To: References: <200011180138.RAA00817@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >> How would user accounts be handled? Also most importantly is anyone >> seriously interested in this? > >I am, but like I said, I've still got to resucitate(SP!) my uVax. :) > >g. Well, better get to work :^) Out of curiousity what have you got for disks on that system? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 18 21:28:14 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: Processor balance (was Re: Welcome and VME) In-Reply-To: <20001119001229.ZPCE14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <741.358T700T2684745optimus@canit.se> THETechnoid skrev: >Sure, a Dragon counts even more than a real coco if you ask me. The >Dragon is pretty rare here in the states. I bet there are fewer over here >than Radio Shack has stores.... They can't have been all that popular here, either. This is strictly Commodore country. >How hardware compatible is it with the standard COCO machines? Can you >use most/all RS peripherals/roms etc? I'm not sure. Is there some more experienced Dragon user here who'd care to enlighten us? At least I know that it's got the same quirky joystick ports, a Microsoft BASIC and will run OS9 when equipped with drives and 64K of RAM. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. "It's better to have loved and lost, than to be gang raped in a Turkish prison." From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Nov 18 23:49:53 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: Women and Classiccmp In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Nov 18, 0 07:38:31 pm" Message-ID: <200011190549.VAA16728@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > It is statistically interesting that the minority of women on the list > > produce such a disproportionately large fraction of the quality traffic on > > the list. Was DEC a particularly liberal company when it came to hiring > > able women? This might be the beginning of a nice lesson in company > > history. > > Kiss ass. > :) He's married, anyway. It's us swinging singles that ought to be singing technological serenades. ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Silly is a state of mind, stupid is a way of life. -- Dave Butler ---------- From Glenatacme at aol.com Sat Nov 18 23:51:12 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A Message-ID: In a message dated 11/18/2000 10:36:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, spectre@stockholm.ptloma.edu writes: > For people who > don't know what one is, visit > > http://www.retrobits.com/ckb/secret/pet.html Hey Cameron: Thanks for posting this -- I'd never heard of this machine and it looks like a lot of fun. A $199 system with support for five mainstream languages? Seems like they could have sold a million of them just to developers and students . . . Glen 0/0 From transit at lerctr.org Sun Nov 19 00:04:28 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: Women and Classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200011190549.VAA16728@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > It's us swinging singles that ought to be singing > technological serenades. ;-) > "She Blinded Me With Science" ??? :-) From THETechnoid at home.com Sun Nov 19 00:53:30 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: Women and Classiccmp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001119064246.DHCW14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Yea, yea. Whatever. ;-) Regards, Jeff In , on 11/19/00 at 01:53 AM, Sellam Ismail said: >Kiss ass. >:) >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger >http://www.vintage.org -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From THETechnoid at home.com Sun Nov 19 00:54:29 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: Women and Classiccmp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001119064409.DHKG14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> About right. Regards, Jeff In , on 11/19/00 at 01:54 AM, "Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)" said: >On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >"She Blinded Me With Science" ??? :-) -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From THETechnoid at home.com Sun Nov 19 00:56:43 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001119070222.DKVU14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> I'm game for whatever connection type makes sense. The first and last in your list I think I can handle without support. SSH and DecNet might take more time. Whatever is chose, I'd like to ensure that the internet is the backbone from a financial point-of-view. Any other connection is going to cost me and right now that doesn't make sense.... Someone mentioned DECNet over TCP/IP. I respect the objections voiced, but TCP/IP meets the ten year rule and then some, and DECNet is routeable - to quote another listmember. The fact we use the internet for this list should give some indication of it's reliability and capability. For the sake of simplicity, I say TCP/IP, or if more functionality can be obtained by DECNET/TCPIP then go there. I'm still confused over how to route direct traffic to the vax through my NAT router. I use NAT because Proxies require manual configuration for each application. There are reasons for proxy servers, but on my small net, it's a support nightmare. I think Allison said that you can redirect a port, but to the best of my knowledge, my existing router is not so flexible. I do have the full suite of servers, I'm just not sure how to use: RSHD, Tftpd and a couple of others..... Not to discourage though. I can go to a Linux or Solaris router. If you get one machine up, I'll be right up on it. In fact, I'll put the first machine up or volunteer it to another group memeber (via telnet) to set it up as first. Just e-mail me directly. I'll give you telnet access to my server from which you can telnet to the VAX and make your changes. The Vax is on the net as we speak and has been for some weeks. It is stable if not terribly fast. It might not be a bad start. This machine is small, fully functional, and will remain online for the forseable future. Moreso if the group finds a use for it. Regards, Jeff >Dialup >ssh >DECnet >Telnet <-- I think this shouldn't be used, but it's easy. >Anyway I'll now see about getting the hardware necessare collected, and >see if I can't maybe even find time tonite to get it loaded. > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | >Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | >and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From azog at azog.org Sun Nov 19 05:04:32 2000 From: azog at azog.org (Billy D'Augustine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network References: <20001119070222.DKVU14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <004a01c05218$7f3a6500$2001a8c0@my.domain> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 1:56 AM Subject: Re: VMS BBS network > I'm game for whatever connection type makes sense. The first and last in > your list I think I can handle without support. SSH and DecNet might take > more time. An ssh client is easy. I have installed one called fish. It's at http://www.free.lp.se/fish/. It's supplied in object form, so all you need to do is link it. An ssh server is more difficult. One does exist, but I have no luck with it. It's at http://www.er6.eng.ohio-state.edu/~jonesd/ssh/. It needs OpenSSL (which is easy), or SSLeay, which in turn needs perl. > > Not to discourage though. I can go to a Linux or Solaris router. If you > get one machine up, I'll be right up on it. Try OpenBSD :) I'm a big fan of OpenBSD. It's got a lot of features that other BSD's, and Linux distros lack. It has an easy to use NAT setup called IPF, which has a very simply filtering syntax. From enrico.badella at softstar.it Sun Nov 19 06:44:22 2000 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network References: <20001119070222.DKVU14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> <004a01c05218$7f3a6500$2001a8c0@my.domain> Message-ID: <3A17CB26.A6EBCE46@softstar.it> Billy D'Augustine wrote: > > Try OpenBSD :) I'm a big fan of OpenBSD. It's got a lot of features that > other BSD's, and Linux distros lack. It has an easy to use NAT setup called > IPF, which has a very simply filtering syntax. Agree. OpenBSD is great for routing or firewalling. I've recently seen that all the linux crowd, or the majority, is becoming plug&play oriented. They just want so disribution with everything precompiled and no security at all; a m$ approach. Long live OpenBSD; too bad it is not available on MCA machines since I've got quite a number of IBM 7012 320H. Back to the Subject. I've lost the previous postings. Is the VMS BBS concerned with setting up a DECNET BBS or just about generic VMS accounts? I've got two hobbyist machines on internet; a 3100M38 12MRAM with OpenVMS 7.2 and a VS2000 14M with VMS 5.3 that could host some accounts. e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From vaxman at uswest.net Sun Nov 19 07:28:17 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: Women and Classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200011190549.VAA16728@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > It is statistically interesting that the minority of women on the list > > > produce such a disproportionately large fraction of the quality traffic on > > > the list. Was DEC a particularly liberal company when it came to hiring > > > able women? This might be the beginning of a nice lesson in company > > > history. > > > > Kiss ***. > > :) > > He's married, anyway. It's us swinging singles that ought to be singing > technological serenades. ;-) > Would never work.... Think of the space required to merge your own collection and someone elses... AND on top of that, they'd want to play with YOUR toys too... clint From gaz_k at lineone.net Sun Nov 19 07:46:10 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: Commodore Liquidation Info References: <3A16B9E7.20861.D37C74@localhost> from David Williams at "Nov 18, 0 05:18:31 pm" <3A16FF43.7469.1E272E7@localhost> Message-ID: <009601c0522f$19f808c0$0101010a@pentium2> A few weeks ago someone posted a URL that contained a scan of a Commodore liquidation document. Does anyone have the address where I can find it? Thanks Gareth -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide | Team Amiga | Get a real OS! http://amiga.emugaming.com | BenchPress | Get PPC MorphOS! From ncherry at home.net Sun Nov 19 08:00:54 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: BBS's References: Message-ID: <3A17DD16.75BBF15D@home.net> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 17 Nov 2000, Neil Cherry wrote: > > > No but knowing what 2600 & KP1-4 does. Also knowing that the internal > > system still works that way does. :-) > > What third world country are you living in? Switch to switch routing has > been digital in the US for years now. Does SS7 ring a bell? You know I am becoming dain bread, I work on VoIP and I completely forgot about SS7. > > Got my "E & O ..." right here, anyone know of a booth that still does > > ground start? > > What are you talking about? Payphones have always been ground-start. I thought these were changed out, I don't get to play much with pay phones. (Hiding head in shame mumblinb about reality and time ...) :-) -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Nov 19 09:42:44 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: Women and Classiccmp In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at "Nov 19, 0 00:04:28 am" Message-ID: <200011191542.HAA21054@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > It's us swinging singles that ought to be singing > > technological serenades. ;-) > > "She Blinded Me With Science" ??? :-) YEAH! :-) (She's poetry in mo---tion ....) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegcaps awound? --------------------------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Nov 19 09:44:44 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at "Nov 19, 0 00:51:12 am" Message-ID: <200011191544.HAA16710@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > For people who > > don't know what one is, visit > > > > http://www.retrobits.com/ckb/secret/pet.html > > Hey Cameron: > > Thanks for posting this -- I'd never heard of this machine and it looks like > a lot of fun. A $199 system with support for five mainstream languages? > Seems like they could have sold a million of them just to developers and > students . . . Yeah, they sure could have. Actually, in the Secret Weapons collection, the machine I thought had a *lot* of potential was the CBM 900, their Z8001-based Unix server. I am hellbent on acquiring one and slapping TCP/IP on it -- perhaps I could serve Secret Weapons from a 900 running Coherent UNIX, like Applefritter runs from a Deep Dish ANS 300 :-) (Tip of the hat to Tom Owad.) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ---- From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Nov 19 09:53:42 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network In-Reply-To: <004a01c05218$7f3a6500$2001a8c0@my.domain> from "Billy D'Augustine" at "Nov 19, 2000 06:04:32 am" Message-ID: <200011191553.eAJFri309989@bg-tc-ppp281.monmouth.com> > Try OpenBSD :) I'm a big fan of OpenBSD. It's got a lot of features that > other BSD's, and Linux distros lack. It has an easy to use NAT setup called > IPF, which has a very simply filtering syntax. My recommendation on an intel or alpha platform -- FreeBSD 4.2 (release date should be tomorrow or later tonight). I've been running it since 1.02 here. It's got ipfilter, ipf... and is easier to set up than OpenBSD and more secure and reliable than Linux. If you're running on Sparc, Vax, 68k, PowerPC -- take a look at both OpenBSD and NetBSD to see which one supports your hardware better. I'm waiting for a CDROM image of NetBSD 1.5 to appear on the net so I can set up my Vaxstation to dual boot (one 2gb of VAX/VMS one of NetBSD. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Nov 19 10:06:53 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network In-Reply-To: <14870.47133.284129.598553@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Nov 18, 2000 12:10:53 pm" Message-ID: <200011191606.eAJG6sl10152@bg-tc-ppp281.monmouth.com> > On November 18, Billy D'Augustine wrote: > > > Also most importantly is anyone > > > seriously interested in this? > > > > I'd be interested! > > You know, call me crazy, but I think I'm interested as well. Yeah. > I, too, miss the dialup BBS days, and it'd be neat to do something > even remotely like that again. > > I ran the Mercerville RCP/M system for about three years up near > Trenton, NJ, when I was in high school...I shut it down in 1987 in > favor of putting my pdp11/34a (running RSTS/E) on a dialup line for my > friends to hack on. > -Dave McGuire Ah... a local... My wife's still got a BBS up -- running Citadel. At least it was running until a couple of weeks ago, when we didn't reboot it after a bunch of power failures. Seems no one complained it was gone 8-( Perhaps I should post the phone # here for nostalgia's sake. For a while I had ROS (a Turbo Pascal BBS) up on an AT&T6300 and a Zorba CP/M box. --Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Nov 19 10:08:27 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <3A16B4EC.595CE6B8@home.net> from Neil Cherry at "Nov 18, 2000 11:57:16 am" Message-ID: <200011191608.eAJG8SS10170@bg-tc-ppp281.monmouth.com> > Nice thing about UUCP, if configured correctly it could go over either > medium. Fails on IP it can jump to dialup and you could limit the dialup > to certain times of day, day of the week, depending on the host and could > even drop kick to a backup dialup (IIRC). > > (The rest deleted as it's reading too much into a system that was designed > that way). > Well, we'd have to restart the mapping system again if it's revived. Anyone else willing to work on this with me? Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From dogas at bellsouth.net Sun Nov 19 10:08:43 2000 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:56 2005 Subject: Confessions of a classic computer junkie Message-ID: <009901c05242$fe2a5440$8e784ed8@DOMAIN> Hi all, ;) I recently moved and was missing the ole place... and ran across some (aged, because there was apparently *some* room to move around in ) digital snaps. Since there were alot of old systems in the pics, thought I'd share them...(about 60k a piece) http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~dogas/H01.jpg http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~dogas/H02.jpg http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~dogas/H03.jpg http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~dogas/H04.jpg http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~dogas/H06.jpg http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~dogas/H07.jpg http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~dogas/H09.jpg http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~dogas/H10.jpg http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~dogas/Porch1.jpg http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~dogas/Porch2.jpg From kees.stravers at iae.nl Sun Nov 19 10:34:31 2000 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Confessions of a classic computer junkie Message-ID: <20001119163431.44D4520F1C@mail.iae.nl> On 2000-11-19 classiccmp@classiccmp.org said to kees.stravers@iae.nl cl>;) I recently moved and was missing the ole place... and ran cl>across some (aged, because there was apparently *some* room to move cl>around in ) digital snaps. Since there were alot of old systems cl>in the pics, thought I'd share them...(about 60k a piece) cl>http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~dogas/ You made me very happy. Sometimes, when I have trouble moving around in my own house, I think, I can't be the only crazy guy who lives like this. Thanks to your pictures, now I'm sure I'm not the only one with a house like that! :) You even had a pinball machine too. I hope it survived the move. Kees. -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/ My Computerhome page http://www.vaxarchive.org/ Info on old DEC VAX computers Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered From THETechnoid at home.com Sun Nov 19 10:52:14 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network In-Reply-To: <200011191553.eAJFri309989@bg-tc-ppp281.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20001119164332.IMNI14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> In <200011191553.eAJFri309989@bg-tc-ppp281.monmouth.com>, on 11/19/00 at 11:52 AM, Bill Pechter said: I've got both netbsd and openbsd on my Sparc alongside Solaris 2.4. I like it well enough, but no netscape. Every time I mount the solaris partition under BSD, I get the libraries I need but can no longer boot Solaris. Wierd huh? No writes to the solaris part, just pulling a copy of the libraries. V/R Jeff >If you're running on Sparc, Vax, 68k, PowerPC -- take a look at both >OpenBSD and NetBSD to see which one supports your hardware better. >I'm waiting for a CDROM image of NetBSD 1.5 to appear on the net so I can >set up my Vaxstation to dual boot (one 2gb of VAX/VMS one of NetBSD. >Bill -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 19 10:54:08 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <3A16FF43.7469.1E272E7@localhost> from "David Williams" at Nov 18, 0 10:14:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 697 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001119/59786548/attachment.ksh From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sun Nov 19 11:46:46 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Free 1GB disk In-Reply-To: <20001119164332.IMNI14021.femail4.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: Yours for the price of shipping: one Seagate/HP DSP3107LWD 1GB fast wide differential disk drive. It worked when pulled from a HP9000 a year ago. It is still mounted in the HP 6000SX shelf mounting hardware. Paul From dogas at bellsouth.net Sun Nov 19 12:02:48 2000 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Confessions of a classic computer junkie References: <20001119163431.44D4520F1C@mail.iae.nl> Message-ID: <014401c05252$eed55c50$8e784ed8@DOMAIN> From: > You made me very happy. Sometimes, when I have trouble moving around in > my own house, I think, I can't be the only crazy guy who lives like this. > Thanks to your pictures, now I'm sure I'm not the only one with a house > like that! :) You even had a pinball machine too. I hope it survived > the move. > Kees. Figures... I meet my soul-mate, and it's a 'he' and he's in the Netherlands.. ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From harrison at mail.timharrison.com Sun Nov 19 12:22:06 2000 From: harrison at mail.timharrison.com (Tim Harrison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... In-Reply-To: <14868.28397.751447.280234@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > Jeeze, I'm jealous. Here on the east coast things are much more > bleak hamfest-wise. Where are you, Dave? For some reason, I thought you were out west. I just finished part of my move back to New York from Toronto. I say part because of some fishy dealings with an prior landlord here, who said that our old apartment was available, then rented it once we had sent our money. So, we're staying at a friend's place, with all of our stuff in storage. I figure we need a support group in NY and area. Drink coffee, whine about systems we've not the space for, and drink more coffee. :) Tim. Geek. harrison@timharrison.com EOF From azog at azog.org Sun Nov 19 12:27:30 2000 From: azog at azog.org (Billy D'Augustine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network References: <200011191553.eAJFri309989@bg-tc-ppp281.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <001601c05256$60b1bd20$2001a8c0@my.domain> From: "Bill Pechter" > > My recommendation on an intel or alpha platform -- FreeBSD 4.2 (release date > should be tomorrow or later tonight). Without this turning into an age-old OS war - actually, I would recommend against FreeBSD even on an Intel platform. With OpenBSD, at least I know what's being installed, and I know that the installation has gone thru the OpenBSD audit process (which is the top selling point of this flavour). If you install from the ports or packages, you're on your own, but even their version of X has been audited. With FreeBSD, I'm not sure what's being installed even when I specify the installation options! I don't want GNOME or KDE. I'm mildly old-fashioned, and prefer twm derivatives, such as ctwm. Somehow GNOME or KDE always end up being installed. Of course, I am awaiting FreeBSD 4.2, I've been following it, and will download the ISO when it's available. I like NetBSD, but each time I start using it, I get mildly annoyed over trivial things, but they add up, so I usually end up going back to OpenBSD. btw: in reference to another thread, I'm a local too :) I have a lurking friend who ran a Citadel BBS. It was fun. Even tho UUCP is dead, I still have an entry in the maps for a 3B1 I ran back in 1990 or thereabouts. There used to be a computer store in Rockaway NJ called "Second Byte" (they may still be there), and their original selling method was refurbs. They were spun off from Rockaway Recycling. RR would bid on discarded computer lots, from various companies. They'd get pallets of IBM AT's, spiff them up and sell them. Associated with Second Byte was "the warehouse" (no name), where they'd put the big iron. People there were CLUELESS (heavy emphasis) on big iron, most of it would be scrapped for the gold. They had grunts with hammers (literally). I picked up one of my VAX 730's, and perhaps two PDP-11's - an extremely well-stocked 11/73 for $100 (this was back in 1992). They had dozens of 11/780s which I used to drool over. Just too big for me. One day, me and a friend of mine were wandering the depths of the warehouse, and WAAY in the farthest corner, packed behind lots of junk and generally just forgotten was some model IBM 360. It had a university asset tag on it, I forget. Perhaps Columbia? Anyways, one day, some woman walked in trying to sell an "AT&T 3B1" to this store, but they had no clue. It didn't run DOS. So they sent her packing. We intercepted her outside and made a back-alley deal :) Oh I babble. The warehouse doesn't exist anymore. they closed it either for lack of interest or for insurance liability (things were stacked on three story racks; I used to be monkey boy trying to see what they had). Rockaway Recycling still exists, and as far as I know, and Second Byte does, but they're Just Another Dealer. From harrison at mail.timharrison.com Sun Nov 19 13:35:37 2000 From: harrison at mail.timharrison.com (Tim Harrison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Confessions of a classic computer junkie In-Reply-To: <014401c05252$eed55c50$8e784ed8@DOMAIN> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Mike wrote: > Figures... I meet my soul-mate, and it's a 'he' and he's in the > Netherlands.. When I met my wife, she understood that I had lots of computers. Now we're talking about buying land, so that we can build two houses. One for me, the computers, and a Pharoah Hound, and one for her, the cats, a Rhodesian Ridgeback, and horses. I'd almost go for it. ;) Tim. Geek. harrison@timharrison.com EOF From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 19 13:28:41 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <3A17DD16.75BBF15D@home.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Neil Cherry wrote: > You know I am becoming dain bread, I work on VoIP and I completely forgot > about SS7. Do you design in-band signalling features into your systems to allow one to seize a trunk with a 2600HZ tone? :) > > What are you talking about? Payphones have always been ground-start. > > I thought these were changed out, I don't get to play much with pay phones. Well, it depends on what payphones you're talking about, but the Bell phones have a ground-start line. The private payphones (a.k.a. COCOTs) generally use a standard business loop-start line, or in some cases a specially provisioned COPT (Coin Operated Pay Telephone) line that has certain features useful for billing. But anyway, the provisioning of the line has nothing to do with being able to "phreak" (in a blue box sense) from a payphone. In the old days, when you had to put in a coin before you got dialtone, you used to be able to steal a dialtone by grounding the phone (like the trick David Lightman used in _War Games_). With the old phones, the coin caused the line to be grounded, and since the trunk was ground-start, it would signal the central office to return dialtone. So you had to pay even for information and operator calls, although the operator could return your coin (if you didn't have a coin to begin with you were screwed :) Since it was assumed the only way the line would be grounded was by inserting a coin, it was considered secure. The Bells then changed their phones out to ones that had dialtone first that you couldn't fool in this manner, but there was still a way to fool them into making free local calls by grounding the line while dialing. A very simplified discussion, and of course pertaining to US payphones, but the basics are there. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Nov 19 15:26:18 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >> How would user accounts be handled? Also most importantly is anyone > >> seriously interested in this? > > > >I am, but like I said, I've still got to resucitate(SP!) my uVax. :) > > > >g. > > Well, better get to work :^) Out of curiousity what have you got for disks > on that system? I've got a pair of RD54s in doubious condition and an RA90 that's not been powered up in at least 5 years. g. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 19 16:33:35 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... In-Reply-To: Re: Love 'em or hate 'em... (Tim Harrison) References: <14868.28397.751447.280234@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14872.21823.210796.862848@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 19, Tim Harrison wrote: > > Jeeze, I'm jealous. Here on the east coast things are much more > > bleak hamfest-wise. > > Where are you, Dave? For some reason, I thought you were out west. I'm in Laurel, MD, right off of the stretch of Route 95 that connects the DC and Baltimore beltways, just south of the middle. > I just finished part of my move back to New York from Toronto. I say part > because of some fishy dealings with an prior landlord here, who said that > our old apartment was available, then rented it once we had sent our > money. So, we're staying at a friend's place, with all of our stuff in > storage. Eeeeeeek!! Sounds like some legs need to be broken. > I figure we need a support group in NY and area. Drink coffee, whine > about systems we've not the space for, and drink more coffee. :) Sounds good to me. -Dave McGuire From bill_r at inetnebr.com Sun Nov 19 16:46:07 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: OT: Toshiba XXe Key Phone System Info? Message-ID: <2rlg1ts35f69q7as8fc522c7p49uta4ld4@4ax.com> I guess it passes the 10-year rule, and it's got some CPUs in it (Z8xxx's) so maybe it's not as off-topic as I thought... ;-) We (my fellow techo-packrat housemate and myself) were recently given a Toshiba Strata XXe phone system and about 35 EKT-series phones by his company when they got a new system. It was working when disconnected, but we received no installation manuals - just phone user guides. It's all there, with (from what I've gathered from various web sites) an HCAU (CPU), an HCBU (aux CPU), two HCOU (central office) cards, an HINU (intercom) card, three HSTU-2 and one HSTU-5 (station cards), and an operator's console, but when they removed it, they just hacked off the 25-pair (or are the 50 pair?) cables from the HSTU cards, so I've got no way of knowing which pairs go to the phone jacks. Was wondering if anyone can point me to some information about this. Several hours of web searching has turned up some tantalizing hints, but nothing I want to risk blowing something up by trying. Any help would be very much appreciated. I found one company that will sell me a manual, but it's a weekend and this phone system _really_ wants to be hooked up! :-) Background info (if you're interested): We have half the stuff in the house automated with X-10 power control modules and the "Mister House" software using motion sensors, etc. to run lights, a 300 disc CD changer, software-based phone answering machine, etc. Mister House (www.misterhouse.net) is mostly a bunch of Perl scripts that can be made to do most anything with enough work. It also has voice I/O capability. I've got the whole place wired with ethernet, with laptops in most of the rooms. I've also got 4-pair CAT3 phone wire to each room. I'd like to use the XXe to run our phones, as well as letting "Mister House" use the hands-free intercom functions to talk to us around the house and/or receive commands from us. -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Nov 19 17:04:43 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: BBS's References: <570.358T2100T1005461optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <00c001c0527d$2085c080$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Geoff Roberts" Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 11:10 AM Subject: Re: BBS's > Geoff Roberts skrev: > > >I play with teletypes a lot, perhaps a global mechanical TTY network, > >LOL. > > I've got an article in an old issue of Radio & Television about building your > own radio-teletype. It is dated 1974, and really seems like the forerunner to > the BBSes. There was stuff like that around until relatively recently. There were RTTY BBS programs, which were your basic BBS msg board etc, but designed to work with Baudot TTY machines. Some survived as an adjunct to Packet, I think the one in Adelaide only closed down it's RTTY gateway last year. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Nov 19 17:10:06 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A References: Message-ID: <00d001c0527d$db7d8580$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 4:21 PM Subject: Re: CP/M on the TI-99/4A > Thanks for posting this -- I'd never heard of this machine and it looks like > a lot of fun. A $199 system with support for five mainstream languages? > Seems like they could have sold a million of them just to developers and > students . . . As a former TI99/4A owner, I can vouch for that. The machine was a somewhat better performer than the C64 it was contemporary with, not just speedwise, but bear in mind that this was a 16 bit cpu when all other home computers were 8 bit, and the drive was your common or garden type SS or DS floppy, not the strange serial bus "read everything twice" commodore type. It certainly had it's quirks, and the keyboard took a little getting used to, though I think the commodore had some odd quirks as well. I still have mine somewhere, and the Editor/Assembler cartridge as well. What made it flop was more to do with marketing, at which TI were so totally inept it boggles the mind. So it never sold very well, they lost on it bigtime, and it prompted them to get out of home computers and eventually, computers period. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From ss at allegro.com Sun Nov 19 17:50:18 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3A17F6BA.5810.EC715B9@localhost> Re: > > http://www.retrobits.com/ckb/secret/pet.html > > Hey Cameron: > > Thanks for posting this -- I'd never heard of this machine and it looks like > a lot of fun. A $199 system with support for five mainstream languages? > Seems like they could have sold a million of them just to developers and > students . . . I have a SuperPET, and enjoy it ... but it's a bit of a stretch to say "five mainstream languages". The Waterloo APL, BASIC, COBOL, FORTRAN, and Pascal were all fairly simple interpreters. As interpreters, they were pretty good ones. The Waterloo Assembler was, well, weird. What else can be said about an assembler with a construct like: GUESS ... ... QUIF ... ... ADMIT ... ENDGUESS :) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Nov 19 18:21:15 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <3A17F6BA.5810.EC715B9@localhost> from Stan Sieler at "Nov 19, 0 03:50:18 pm" Message-ID: <200011200021.QAA11170@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > The Waterloo Assembler was, well, weird. What else can be said about > an assembler with a construct like: > > GUESS > ... > ... > QUIF > ... > ... > ADMIT > ... > ENDGUESS Whoa. What are the semantics of *that*? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegcaps awound? --------------------------------- From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Nov 19 18:15:53 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... In-Reply-To: <14872.21823.210796.862848@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Nov 19, 2000 05:33:35 pm" Message-ID: <200011200015.eAK0Fs611357@bg-tc-ppp972.monmouth.com> > > I figure we need a support group in NY and area. Drink coffee, whine > > about systems we've not the space for, and drink more coffee. :) > > Sounds good to me. > > -Dave McGuire Well... I'm in central New Jersey (near Freehold and Asbury Park). Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 19 18:45:36 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Well, better get to work :^) Out of curiousity what have you got for disks >> on that system? > >I've got a pair of RD54s in doubious condition and an RA90 that's not been >powered up in at least 5 years. > >g. Hey, you're actually in good shape then. I was afrad that you were going to say RD53's. However, keep in mind you can probably pick up a SCSI based VAXstation 3100 with decent RAM and disks for less than you could get a replacement disk for that system. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From optimus at canit.se Sun Nov 19 19:00:14 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <768.359T700T1203829optimus@canit.se> Don Maslin skrev: >On 19 Nov 2000, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Gene Buckle skrev: >> >> >> Someone always wants it all! Full duplex on a tin-can, yet. Sheesh! >> >> >> >What if we restrict him to a 1200/75 split channel? :) >> >> I was rather amused to see the return of split-speed (I never saw the first >> wave myself, but I'd read about it) when the 56k modems came, which have a >> 33k6 uplink. >Split-speed is not that long gone. After all, that was thebasis for US >Robotics HST protocol, was it not? Which HST protocol? AFAIK, there were at least two; one 9600 bps and one 16800 bps flavour, as well IIRC a ~12900 flavour for mobile phones. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Was ist ein Erwachsener? Ein Kind, das vom Alter aufgepumpt ist. --- Simone de Beauvoir From elmo at mminternet.com Sun Nov 19 19:33:15 2000 From: elmo at mminternet.com (Eliot Moore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: OT: Toshiba XXe Key Phone System Info? References: <2rlg1ts35f69q7as8fc522c7p49uta4ld4@4ax.com> Message-ID: <3A187F59.3B48554A@mminternet.com> Bill Richman wrote: > I guess it passes the 10-year rule, and it's got some CPUs in it (Z8xxx's) > so maybe it's not as off-topic as I thought... ;-) > > We have half the stuff in the house automated with X-10 power control > modules and the "Mister House" software using motion sensors, etc. to run > lights, a 300 disc CD changer, software-based phone answering machine, etc. > Mister House (www.misterhouse.net) is mostly a bunch of Perl scripts that > can be made to do most anything with enough work. It also has voice I/O > capability. I've got the whole place wired with ethernet, with laptops in > most of the rooms. I've also got 4-pair CAT3 phone wire to each room. I'd > like to use the XXe to run our phones, as well as letting "Mister House" use > the hands-free intercom functions to talk to us around the house and/or > receive commands from us. False start. The Strata XXe is [just] a key system, has no native single line or voicemail/auto-attendant support. You'll need the "off-premise" station cards (MOPU/MOPX?), and it can only provide six ports that way. Good luck finding them. Regards, Elmo From bill_r at inetnebr.com Sun Nov 19 20:09:31 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: OT: Toshiba XXe Key Phone System Info? In-Reply-To: <3A187F59.3B48554A@mminternet.com> References: <2rlg1ts35f69q7as8fc522c7p49uta4ld4@4ax.com> <3A187F59.3B48554A@mminternet.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 17:33:15 -0800, Eliot Moore wrote: >False start. The Strata XXe is [just] a key system, has no native single line >or voicemail/auto-attendant support. You'll need the "off-premise" station >cards (MOPU/MOPX?), and it can only provide six ports that way. Good luck >finding them. > >Regards, >Elmo > I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Why "off premise"? The system came with phones, and I was under the impression it took as input, POTS lines. I know it doesn't have voicemail, etc; we've got that covered in other ways. My plan was to use the phones that came with the system, "sacrificing" one or more of them for interfacing with our home-automation system, etc. Using a BASIC Stamp or PIC, I can make the server "push the buttons" on the phones via a serial port, and with a little impedance matching (or a speaker duct-taped to the handset), the home automation system can use the "all call" or individual hands-free intercom capability of the system to talk to us in various rooms and get a spoken response. At any rate, right now all I'm after is the wiring diagram used to connect the indivdual RJ-45 (?) modular jacks to the wiring coming from the station cards; I believe the phones we have use 2-pair wiring; what I need is the color codes (or pin numbers) from the big connectors (Amphenol?) on the station cards to the individual modular jacks. I plan on ordering a manual when I can, but I'd like to play a little in the meantime. -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From ncherry at home.net Sun Nov 19 21:04:24 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Boot CP/m-86 on an IBM XT Message-ID: <3A1894B8.FCDBFEF3@home.net> How does one get CP/M-86 on a bootable disk? BTW: the IBM XT is now working (even the Seagate drive), it has DOS 3.30 on it. I'm going to clean the floppy and lube the rails a little later to make sure it's in OK condition. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 19 21:08:54 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Boot CP/m-86 on an IBM XT References: <3A1894B8.FCDBFEF3@home.net> Message-ID: <000f01c0529f$37833fc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Be certain you hack the EPROM contents on the XT motherboard so it has the correct step rate for your FDD. There were quite a few public domain utilities that had the ability to modify the step rate once your system was booted, but the fact that the XT moves the head as part of its POST, will almost certainly run your drive too slowly, thereby damaging its alignment. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Cherry" To: "classic" Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 8:04 PM Subject: Boot CP/m-86 on an IBM XT > How does one get CP/M-86 on a bootable disk? > > BTW: the IBM XT is now working (even the Seagate drive), it has DOS 3.30 > on it. I'm going to clean the floppy and lube the rails a little later > to make sure it's in OK condition. > > -- > Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net > http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) > http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) > http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) > > From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 19 23:42:51 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: OT: Toshiba XXe Key Phone System Info? In-Reply-To: <2rlg1ts35f69q7as8fc522c7p49uta4ld4@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Bill Richman wrote: > We (my fellow techo-packrat housemate and myself) were recently given a > Toshiba Strata XXe phone system and about 35 EKT-series phones by his > company when they got a new system. It was working when disconnected, but > we received no installation manuals - just phone user guides. It's all > there, with (from what I've gathered from various web sites) an HCAU (CPU), > an HCBU (aux CPU), two HCOU (central office) cards, an HINU (intercom) card, > three HSTU-2 and one HSTU-5 (station cards), and an operator's console, but > when they removed it, they just hacked off the 25-pair (or are the 50 pair?) > cables from the HSTU cards, so I've got no way of knowing which pairs go to > the phone jacks. Was wondering if anyone can point me to some information > about this. Several hours of web searching has turned up some tantalizing > hints, but nothing I want to risk blowing something up by trying. Any help > would be very much appreciated. I found one company that will sell me a > manual, but it's a weekend and this phone system _really_ wants to be hooked > up! :-) They're fairly easy to hook up. I believe this system uses three pairs for each station (phone): one for analog voice, one for digital signaling data, and the third would be for power. This might be a more efficient system though, using maybe only two pairs, or even one if it's really cool. The pairs would then be arranged in sequence on the punchdown block, and you'd hook them up to a jack in standard order. Standard order (for those not in the know): On jacks with red/green/black/yellow wires: green/red is the first pair (or line) and black/yellow is the second. This is a traditional phone jack, mostly found in older homes and stuff. Green and black are the positive (or "tip") side of the line, and red and yellow are the negative (or "ring") side. Polarity generally matters a great deal on proprietary phone systems with digital sets. It used to matter on regular telephone lines too but generally not anymore, although the PBX I have in my house will not seize a loop start trunk if the polarity is reversed. It's either a feature or a bug, depending on how stringent or how lax you are. On jacks with blue, orange, green, brown and slate (grey) wiring, the order is exactly as I have listed. The common color will be white. So the first pair will be one wire with mostly white, and the other wire will be mostly blue. The second is one wire that's mostly white, and the other mostly orange. The mostly white wire is always positive (tip) and the other wire is negative (ring). A 25 pair cable has a standard color scheme. The "primary colors", as previously mentioned, are Blue, Orange, Green, Brown, Slate (grey). A 25 pair cable is split up into 5 groups of 5 pairs. These are the colors for each group of five pairs. Each group also has a different common color. The first group is white, the second is red, then black, then yellow, then violet. So basically, as the 25 pair cable comes out of the phone system, the white/blue-blue/white pair represents the first line of the first phone. The white/orange-orange/white pair is the second line, etc. What you still need to figure out is how many pairs each set requires. Say they require three, then the first three pairs (blue/white, orange/white, and green/white) would be connected up for the first phone. The second phone would get brown/white, slate/white, and blue/red (see how we just moved into the second group of 5 pairs? the standard grouping of the colors has no bearing on how the phones are hooked up...at least I've never seen a system that would do something as lame as this). And the next phone would get orange/red, green/red, brown/red. And so on. You generally will not find any sort of manuals for phone systems on the web like you will old computer manuals. Phone guys are archaic. Knowledge is passed by word of mouth or by hard-copying manuals. Nobody has ever thought to scan any of these old manuals in and post them online in an archive like the computer hobbyists do (although many times I wish someone with more time than I have would do so). Mostly this is because nobody tinkers with old phone systems as a pasttime. You only need the manual once, usually to install and configure, and then after that it gets tucked away somewhere. You memorize what you need to know. Also, nobody wants to post something online that they can charge money for :) Anyway, all that being said, if you can't turn up a manual anywhere else, I'm almost positive we have one for the Strata DK in our library at my office. I can run a copy for you. Contact me at if you're interested (consider this an olive branch ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 19 23:45:25 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <3A17F6BA.5810.EC715B9@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > I have a SuperPET, and enjoy it ... but it's a bit of a stretch to > say "five mainstream languages". The Waterloo APL, BASIC, COBOL, FORTRAN, > and Pascal were all fairly simple interpreters. As interpreters, they > were pretty good ones. > > The Waterloo Assembler was, well, weird. What else can be said about > an assembler with a construct like: Speaking of which, I just received the complete set of manuals for the Waterloo languages this weekend. I also got the SuperPET manual (and while I'm at it, the first 30 tapes of the Cursor software library...I'm sure Larry will take notice, unless he already has all of them, which I think he does :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 19 23:59:24 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: OT: Toshiba XXe Key Phone System Info? In-Reply-To: <3A187F59.3B48554A@mminternet.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Eliot Moore wrote: > False start. The Strata XXe is [just] a key system, has no native > single line or voicemail/auto-attendant support. You'll need the > "off-premise" station cards (MOPU/MOPX?), and it can only provide six > ports that way. Good luck finding them. There's also a plug-in voicemail card that you can stick into one of the slots of the chassis, but I'm sure this is still a high-ticket item (unless you can find a used one for cheap, but my guess is that it would still run in the hundreds of bucks). One of the better cheap key systems for home use that you hack with a bit is the Panasonic KX-T1232D (also the KX-T616, which is just a smaller configuration of the 1232). It's really a hybrid, a cross between a key system and a PBX. The 1232 can have 12 CO trunks and 32 stations. The stations can be either proprietary digital or regular analog phones (and there's no need to specify this in the configuration, it's auto-sensing!) It can also do programmed call routing, so you can specify where calls on each trunk will ring to, and is pretty flexible in programming. You can transfer calls around to other phones. It has call forwarding capability, three-way (conference) calling, call waiting, etc. The features are a royal bitch to use from an analog touch-tone phone so having the proprietary sets helps a lot. I really like this system for what it can do as basically a lowly key system, but it has it's drawbacks. I was able to integrate it with the voicemail system I designed at my last job, but being that it has no in-band signaling you couldn't do blind transfers if you wanted the call to forward to voicemail after so many rings. Well, this is starting to get into babble that not many people on a computer mailing list will understand so I'll quit for now. Anyway, I upgraded from the Panasonic to an eOn (Cortelco) Millennium, a 128 port fully digital switch. It's pretty much a miniature CO. I could run my entire block off of it if I wanted to, and provide all the same features as the phone company, even Caller ID (I'm so cool!) I'm still waiting on the Clock Card that will allow me to use the T-1 card so I can interface it to my voicemail system completely digital (no transfer glitches and much faster call routing :) Phone systems are my other geek passion. I actually have a small collection of older systems as well, including an AT&T Horizon (yes, it shares a name with a computer) circa 1975ish. The Horizon, incidentally, also runs off an 8080 :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jate at uwasa.fi Mon Nov 20 02:00:18 2000 From: jate at uwasa.fi (Jarkko Hermanni Teppo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: HP Questions In-Reply-To: <200011180017.eAI0HYP42772@daemonweed.reanimators.org>; from fmc@reanimators.org on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 04:17:34PM -0800 References: <20001117131623.F4735@loisto.uwasa.fi> <200011180017.eAI0HYP42772@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <20001120100018.A11788@loisto.uwasa.fi> On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 04:17:34PM -0800, Frank McConnell wrote: > > None of the above. It's older, non-streaming, and it uses tension arms. > Okay, actually the 7974 uses tension arms too, I just got mine running (at least to the point of loading the tape). > > No idea, but it's interesting to see that the 9000/550 also had the > number 9050. Yep, it "simplifies" web searches, 9000/550, 9050, 9000 Series 500 etc.. I'm trying to scan most of the docs that I have an Apple Scanner I bought for $2 recently. I just have to figure out a way to get from tiffs -> single page postscript -> multipage PS -> PDF. Adobe Acrobat does this automatically but I don't have the money to buy it for that purpose alone. I'm currently stuck on the single page-> multipage conversion:) > > hp20001.jpg is an HP 2114 minicomputer. > > hp20002.jpg is a 21MX mini of some sort. I'm away from my manuals so > can't easily tell which series. > > hp3kcons.jpg pictures an HP 2647F that was sold with an HP 3000 series > 64/68/70 for use as its console. I'm thinking that for about the first year > of shipments of the 3000/64, the 2647F did not have the "hp3000" plate > on the front, just the usual 2647F plate. Thanks for the info! I was given a really brief tour (a couple of hours) and these guys had *so* much stuff! The one in ibmhex.jpg was recognized as an IBM 3850 Mass Storage System. I really ought to get started on the 3000-series. > > > -- > > Jarkko Teppo | Lahjoita HP 7933:n levypakka hyv??n kotiin! > > ObUglyAmerican: what are you saying about the 7933? > > When I first saw one, in 1982, I thought "wow, it's so big!". Imagine > my surprise when a new cow-orker saw a 7935 at Wollongong in 1995 or > so and said about the same thing. I had been thinking about the > capacity: 404MB was pretty impressive for a washing-machine drive back > in 1982. He was clearly thinking about the size, and comparing it > with 540MB drives then popular in desktop Wintel PCs. "Donate HP 7933 disk platters to a good home". The drive I have is a bit picky, sometimes it comes up and sometimes it just gives up in the spin-up phase. It also has some bad blocks, I think. I did have a lot of fun hauling it, as I normally get a lot of help when loading the stuff but as usual I was unloading it alone (not the lack of friends, but the lack of a big truck. I had a 7933, 7935, two 550's and all this with a Toyota Carina II). When I was unloading it with the help of some improvised ramps it suddenly decided to run over my toes. I don't remember the weight of the 7933 but it is between 150 and 200 kg (I think). So, I've been trying to get "new" disk platters or a complete drive but they're pretty hard to come by. And I'm *not* going to ship one from the USA:=) Oh yes, you can see a lot of 7925's (which are similar to 7933) in Terminator 2 at the place that was blown up (Cyberdyne ?). -- Jarkko Teppo | Lahjoita HP 7933:n levypakka hyv??n kotiin! jate@uwasa.fi | :wq! | From ceohb at kornet.net Mon Nov 20 03:33:16 2000 From: ceohb at kornet.net (ceohb@kornet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Need a source for Type 7772 / 7770 , Dry Silver Paper Message-ID: <3A18EFDC.A3B3F641@kornet.net> Dry Silver Paper of Type 7772, 78-6577-2000-5 or Type 7770 are used by recorders of Medelec and Tektronics ! M3's Immaging Division were tranfered to Imation, who discontinued Dry Silver Paper production end of 1999. Type 7772 Data: Roll-format 8.5" x 131', Papers thickness 0.0044" (incl. coating) Core I.D.: 2.225" +/- 0.005". Winding: CSI (coated side inward), Are there probably any substitute for the product available ? Hwo has mor than 40 ea rolls onhand available ? Appreciate any available information, Regards HGR From jate at uwasa.fi Mon Nov 20 03:35:13 2000 From: jate at uwasa.fi (Jarkko Hermanni Teppo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: HP Questions In-Reply-To: <3A155C44.30581.49B5388@localhost>; from ss@allegro.com on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 04:26:44PM -0800 References: <20001117131623.F4735@loisto.uwasa.fi> <3A155C44.30581.49B5388@localhost> Message-ID: <20001120113513.B11788@loisto.uwasa.fi> On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 04:26:44PM -0800, Stan Sieler wrote: > > Some old HP 3000/9xx models had CIO bus: 925, 935, 950, 955, 960, 980. > (Possibly 930, too) > Good to know, I'll look out for those. When (IF) I find one I have to learn MPE though.. I've only ever seen three 3000-series machines, one was a micro 98 or something like that and one was one of the saddest computers I've ever seen. It used to hold a library application until it was obsoleted. The disks were destroyed in the name of security but apparently the person assigned to doing this dirty deed got a bit carried away and removed *every single card* in the machine and either broke them in half or hit a screwdriver through the chips. It must have taken a long time because the destruction was very thorough. The only thing that wasn't broken was the rack and I'm sure they tried to break that too. After all, it could have been magically holding all the secret data via transdimensional submagnetic resonance. I think the pieces are still gathering cobwebs.. I can understand destroying the disks (barely..) but that was just too much. > > 3. Is the HP 7970 tape drive vacuum column or one of these newer streaming > > devices (like the 7974A). > > No...Hp 7970 is real old. No vacuum, no streaming. > OK, I just checked from www.sieler.com/hpdisk.txt that there were two models, E and B. I have a 7974A and a 7979A but is the 7978 similar (physically) to a 7979A ? Does anybody have any pictures of the 7970 models ? > A 6xx might be a special marketing version of an 8xx computer, but I > can't recall for sure. > > Here are three 9000 6xx models (from /usr/lib/sched.models on HP-UX), > all are PA-RISC 1.0: > 600 > 635 > 645 They seem to be pretty rare. I'll have to start looking. -- Jarkko Teppo | Lahjoita HP 7933:n levypakka hyv??n kotiin! jate@uwasa.fi | Fewer finstrates than expected! :wq! | From LFessen106 at aol.com Mon Nov 20 06:16:59 2000 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Love 'em or hate 'em... Message-ID: In a message dated 11/19/00 7:18:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, pechter@pechter.dyndns.org writes: > > > I figure we need a support group in NY and area. Drink coffee, whine > > > about systems we've not the space for, and drink more coffee. :) > > > > Sounds good to me. > > > > -Dave McGuire > > Well... I'm in central New Jersey (near Freehold and Asbury Park). > > Bill > And I am in Eastern Pennsylvania (Allentown). -Linc Fessenden From LFessen106 at aol.com Mon Nov 20 06:30:21 2000 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help Message-ID: I posted this earlier but never received any response or a return message myself so forgive me if this actually made it to the list and I am re-posting........ Just got 2 SGI Personal Iris's 4D/35's today (Thanks again Tom) and no KB, Mouse, monitor for either. Finally got dumb terminal hooked & working, and was pleased NOT to find boot password protection, HOWEVER.... 1 of them still has a working OS, and the other doesn't. I do not have any OS media for them at all, and the one that IS working has (Of Course) a root password which I do not have. What I really need here is a copy of the installation media here. Pleeeaaaasssee Contact me if you can assist in getting these systems running. I believe the 1 with the OS problem has the OS, but has no scsi disk label. Perhaps if someone were to have a root/boot disk they could copy off for me, I could get them working. I believe they run Iris 4.0.somthingorother. I am also in the market for an inexpensive KB and mouse combo for at least one of these. I also got an HP Apollo 9000/715. Seems to work fine but has abscent hdd for right now. I hooked it up using my other HP's HPIB KB/Mouse and monitor. Problem here is for some reason I can not get a serial console to work on this machine. Can't figure out what the heck I am doing wrong and was wondering if anyone here knew if I had to set that up in the HP's settings to get it to work as it doesn't seem to by default. (Before you ask, I tried both a null-modem and a regular cable on this on both the rs232 and parallel ports with no luck) Also will be looking for inexpensive HPIB KB/Mouse for this.. Thanks for any help you have to offer. -Linc Fessenden From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Nov 20 06:31:53 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: References: <3A15B2B3.26956.73DA22@localhost> from "David Williams" at Nov 17, 0 10:35:31 pm Message-ID: <3A1927C9.27049.2E56CB6D@localhost> F> > different systems. There was a 6809 card for the Apple II I would > > have killed for years ago. I'd assume these 99/4A CP/M boards > I have a 6809 card called 'The Mill' in one of my Apple ][s. It seems to > have come in 2 versions -- the cheaper one, which I have, doesn't have a > ROM on it, and is used with a modified UCSD p-system. It thus speeds up > Pascal and Fortran programs, but it otherwise not that interesting. The > more expensive version of the card had a boot ROM on it, and would boot > OS-9 (obviously configured for the Apple, and put on GCR disks). I now > wish I'd got the latter version... It seams like there are several different ROMs available - or schould we call it different cards ? I have at least one version with a ROM to suppurt the Mumps system. > It's a pretty simple card. The 6809 CPU, a few bus buffers, and a bit of > TTL glue. Like the original Softcard - a bit glue logic to adapt the signaly and take over the whole system (inhibit the 6502). There was also a 6809 Card with seperate Memory, I just don't remember the name. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Nov 20 06:31:54 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <3A15B2B3.26956.73DA22@localhost> Message-ID: <3A1927CA.24335.2E56CB7D@localhost> > I've always had a fascination with coprocessor cards for > different systems. Then you'll need a BBC :) > There was a 6809 card for the Apple II I would > have killed for years ago. I just got one, a week ago. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Nov 20 07:35:15 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Confessions of a classic computer junkie In-Reply-To: <009901c05242$fe2a5440$8e784ed8@DOMAIN> Message-ID: <3A1936A3.893.2E90CBFF@localhost> Hallo Mike, > ;) I recently moved and was missing the ole place... and ran across some > (aged, because there was apparently *some* room to move around in ) digital > snaps. Since there were alot of old systems in the pics, thought I'd share > them...(about 60k a piece) > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~dogas/H01.jpg Say, what's the small box atop the Tandy - it is a Tandy, isn't it ? Gruss H. (Drowned in his own Salvia) P.S.: this looks like home P.P.S.: Seams like you still got lots of soace left :) -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon Nov 20 08:08:32 2000 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: AppleTalk over NT Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E345D@MAIL10> Doug: I got the Mac services working. Apparently it wasn't a problem on the Mac side. The one item that the NT manual left out is that the directory in which the UAM volume resides has to be shared and have the permissions set. I found a Web page dealing with this setup. So, when I shared the directory on the NT Server, the directory was visible by the Mac client. All machines are on the same subnet. The NT Services for Mac is set with routing enabled because there are no other Mac servers on the net. This is per the SFM docs. Thoughts? Now, I need to get printing working. I have a PS laser printer connected to the server. Is shared printing a possiblity? >> Re-reading the NT docs, I'm supposed to see the >>AppleShare icon in the >> Chooser, which I don't. I only see AppleTalk. Hmmm... >>??? I was having all sorts of problems at this point. In the MacTCP control panel, I would only have LocalTalk and no Ethernet. I rebooted and reinstalled from the Network Installer disk and then the Asante disk. Then, EtherTalk appeared. Originally, in the Chooser, when I selected AppleShare, no zones showed-up (which was fixed by the above). I've been using TransMac to move disk images to the ci. Moving them across the network doesn't work because the type/creator information is not moved. As far as I can tell, neither TransMac or HFV work with remote (network) drives, so I can't get their translation benefits. Also, using a null-modem setup doesn't transfer the credtor information. So, the transferred programs are not usable. So, I've been relying on TransMac 4.1c which works well. I'm making images of System 7.5.3 plus the update. I also want to get Web access on that machine. I've got a simple browser, an email and telnet program moved over, but I have to work on the broadband access. I have a cable modem connected to a NAT firewall. All internal machines are on the same subnet with the firewall (192.168.1.x). Could you make me a BinHex or SEA image of the 3.6.4 client disk? Thanks. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Quebbeman [mailto:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com] Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 1:26 PM To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: RE: AppleTalk over NT > Does anyone have any experience with Mac-NT compatibility? I want the Mac > to have access to my NT server so that I can move large files across my home > network which is decidedly Windows-based. I run Services for Macintosh for a very few legacy Macs here... > Here's the setup. NT4 Server has the Services for Macintosh installed. The > NT configuration is set for routing, seeding the network, and a node range > of 11-254. Ok, I don't have SFM set for routing. It's simply bound to the Ethernet adapter. In that mode, the NIC is in the "default zone". > The IIci has an Asante NuBus Ethernet card which passes internal > diagnostics and indicates "link". So, I know the connection to my hub is > good. Ok. > I have the AppleShare 3.0.1 client installed. The ci runs System 7.0.1. > Re-reading the NT docs, I'm supposed to see the AppleShare icon in the > Chooser, which I don't. I only see AppleTalk. Hmmm... ??? I don't see AppleTalk in the Chooser; I see AppleTalk in Control Panel. In Chooser, I see icons for each type of printer driver I'm using, and I also see the AppleShare icon. However, none of our legacy Macs are that old; System 7.5.5 is the oldest in use, OS 8.1 the newest. ISTR that AppleShare Client 3.6.4 is the oldest version of the client in use here. > I configured the MacTCP to point to my firewall for Internet access. Maybe > this should point to the NT Server? It's a private subnet configuration > where the NT server is for file and print sharing only; the Internet > connection is through a broadband firewall/router. NT Services for Macintosh doesn't have the capability introduced in the AppleShare Fileserver IP 5.0 that permits clients to make connections over TCP/IP; and the earliest AppleShare Client that supports the TCP/IP connections is 3.6.4 (we had to make that the baseline while we were still running a Mac fileserver). If you're trying to access the NT Server across anything other than the LAN that the NT Server's NIC is connected to, you're out of luck. No bridges, routers, etc. Additionally, you have to create a directory somewhere, share it for access by Windows clients, then use NT File Mangler to create a Mac Volume from that shared directory before the macs can see them. But it sounds like you're having trouble before you get that far. Hope some of this helps... -dq From dogas at bellsouth.net Mon Nov 20 08:22:59 2000 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Confessions of a classic computer junkie References: <3A1936A3.893.2E90CBFF@localhost> Message-ID: <003501c052fd$62f6d140$51794ed8@DOMAIN> From: Hans Franke > > > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~dogas/H01.jpg > > Say, what's the small box atop the Tandy - it is > a Tandy, isn't it ? Hyya Hans, That's a 35mb external hd for the Tandy 6000 beneath. Its running Xenix 3.01 (upgraded from 1.02) Heh.. I've had a few private emails assuring me my home decore was not unique. ;) Cheers - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Nov 20 08:42:46 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Nov 19, 0 09:45:25 pm" Message-ID: <200011201442.GAA11174@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Speaking of which, I just received the complete set of manuals for the > Waterloo languages this weekend. I also got the SuperPET manual (and > while I'm at it, the first 30 tapes of the Cursor software library...I'm > sure Larry will take notice, unless he already has all of them, which I > think he does :) Any of the paper issues? I've been looking for the Cursor backissue that talks about The Other Intellect and the Colour PET. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- I like work. I could watch people doing work for hours. -------------------- From LFessen106 at aol.com Mon Nov 20 08:37:57 2000 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Confessions of a classic computer junkie Message-ID: <3a.d00adc3.274a9145@aol.com> In a message dated 11/20/00 9:33:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, dogas@bellsouth.net writes: > > Heh.. I've had a few private emails assuring me my home decore was not > unique. ;) > > Cheers > - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net > > > I was happy to see your pics as well. In fact I can't wait to show them to my wife... She thinks MY collection is bad :-) -Linc Fessenden From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 20 08:36:57 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: References: <200011181244.eAICicI06718@bg-tc-ppp493.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001120083320.02d18a80@pc> At 09:10 AM 11/18/00 -0500, R. D. Davis wrote: >An Internet outage and the UUCP system is >broken. On the other hand, a UUCP network of systems connected via >the telephone network could survive an Internet breakdown. In an ideal world, every computer on the net would have better fallback methods of connectivity. I have T-1 to my ISP, but I wish I had a modem fall-back. I'm sure it's simply a matter of rearranging my firewall. I think my ISP would need a way to automatically reassign my DNS records so I could continue to receive mail, for example, but I'm sure that's asking too much. >did you ever >think about what the real purpose of those "sound barrier" walls is?) Something to do with flouridation of water? - John From kebabthesheep at yahoo.com Mon Nov 20 08:54:30 2000 From: kebabthesheep at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?kebabthesheep?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z Message-ID: <20001120145430.13377.qmail@web1606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > > I think I have an RML380Z CP/M disk somewhere here. > I suppose I could make > an image copy, but I'm not sure if it's bootable. I > know it has ZASM and Excellent - I'd like a copy of anything you have for it, if you would be so kind :) > various utilities on it. I'd bet Don Maslin has > boot disk, though. > > I also have 12 A4 pages of circuit diagrams for the > 380Z, and a photocopy > of the appendices to the TXED manual, if they're any > help. > No *that* would be useful. Are they in an electronic format? > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York Would that be York UK, or USA? Dave. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ From kebabthesheep at yahoo.com Mon Nov 20 08:59:40 2000 From: kebabthesheep at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?kebabthesheep?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z Message-ID: <20001120145940.14406.qmail@web1606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Don Maslin wrote: > > David, I cannot help you in the documentation arena, > but if you > have access to TeleDisk and a PC with 5.25" floppy > drive - > preferably 360k - I will email you any or all of the > following > disk images: > > Research Machines Limited > > Name Format Description > RML14B31 SSSD CP/M 1.4B (31K) system disk > for 380Z > RML14B56 SSSD CP/M 1.4B (56K) system disk > for 380Z > RML22C31 SSSD CP/M 2.2C (31K) system disk > for 380Z > RML22C3R SSSD CP/M 2.2C (31K) system disk > for 380Z (reformatted) > RML22C56 SSSD CP/M 2.2C (56K) system disk > for 380Z Um, yes please! I've downloaded a 'teledisk' shareware thingy. I'll give it a blast :) Please can you mail me any/all images you have? I have a dual 3 1/2" + 5 1/4" drive, but I can maybe I can use one of the drives out of the RM if it doesn't do 360K correctly? I'd better check on that one... Cheers, Dave. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 20 09:00:23 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: AppleTalk over NT In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E53E345D@MAIL10> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001120085423.0336ff00@pc> At 09:08 AM 11/20/00 -0500, Cini, Richard wrote: > I got the Mac services working. Apparently it wasn't a problem on >the Mac side. I wish my memory was good enough to jump in and help; it was only a few years ago that I had NT Server exporting shares to my Macs. >I've been using TransMac to move disk images to the ci. Moving them >across the network doesn't work because the type/creator information is not >moved. As far as I can tell, neither TransMac or HFV work with remote >(network) drives, so I can't get their translation benefits. Also, using a >null-modem setup doesn't transfer the credtor information. So, the >transferred programs are not usable. There are a number of Mac utilities that can show you the type and creator four-char IDs for a given file, as well as tools that can automatically or drag-and-drop set the type/creator based on wildcards. For example, you can set it up to change all those generic *.TIF files to PhotoShop, then they'll work when double-clicked. Similarly, you can change type/creator for disk images, if Apple's disk utility wasn't recognizing them in its Open dialog. Also, StuffIt is your friend, in that StuffIt will ignore type/creator when you open the archive, and all the files inside will be preserved with their Mac data and resource forks. - John From jjackson at salsa-digital.com Mon Nov 20 09:07:28 2000 From: jjackson at salsa-digital.com (James Jackson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Commodore Series B-128 Message-ID: <3A193E30.ABF8FB64@salsa-digital.com> All this talk recently, reminds me of the computer that I just had to have... the B-128. I always liked its' looks, and finally found one many moons ago, so I bought it. It turns out to be a really neat computer... too bad C= didn't promote it. (I think that they must've had many new ideas at the time, and weren't sure which ones to pursue.) Anyway, I linked it to an 8050 floppy drive, and played with it for a bit. I soon grew tired of it (well, not really - just needed the space), and sold it to a fella locally. He probably still has it in storage, too. I had invested much in this computer - getting the schematics for it, and other documentation. It was sort of a cross between a C-64 and PET80xx(?) seies computer. Was real fast at 2-Mhz, and would run many of the C-64 programs straight out - provided they didn't get too graphics intensive. I used to do timings between the B-128 and my ol' C-64. Ahhh... those were the days. Regards, James Jackson From kebabthesheep at yahoo.com Mon Nov 20 09:50:25 2000 From: kebabthesheep at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?kebabthesheep?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z Message-ID: <20001120155025.17438.qmail@web1611.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > The box in question is a RML-380Z-D model, with > dual 5 > > 1/4" drives, and I think, 32K RAM. It has two > video > > There is room for 32K RAM (2 rows of 4116s) on the > CPU card. Oh - must have miscounted :-/ > If you have > the RAM expansion card (which, as you imply is a CPU > board with the CPU > and many other chips messing and a different address > decoder PROM) then > you possibly have up to 56K RAM. I has an address *prom*? I thought it was purely TTL? I s'pose its hard to tell with all the pretty little coloured[1] splodges all over the socketed chips (presumably to aid the people who put the chips in...) > COS = Cassette Operating System, and is basically a > bootstrap loader (for > cassette or disk) and a machine code monitor. I figured that much out eventually :) > I should have a system disk somewhere, but it would > take some time to find > it. Kewl - any system disk, even a duplicate is good - at least one may work. > I also should have the COS user manual (giving > some of the calls, > etc) In what format? Electronic? (i.e. easily sharable?) > but I don't have the optional source lisitng of > COS (and FWIW, I'm > looking for it too). As soon as the person who broke our lab's device programmer fixes it - i'll dump the COS roms. I managed to dump the disk rom, using an older programmer - but it wouldn't touch the older, mainboard devices - It complained of over-current. I suspect it was not intended to cope with *all* devices - unlike our really fancy new one - which is broke :( > Yes, or X to boot with the floppies swapped over > (the 'B' drive is A:). > The latter is useful if one drive decides to fail... How thoughtful of RML :) > There is an LED on the > floppy > > controller, it flashes with a kind of 'heart beat' > > pattern i.e. > Flash-flash--pause--flash-flash--pause > > Are you sure this is a standard RML disk controller? > I can't find any LED > on the schematics, and I don't remember there being > one when I looked > inside my machine. The standard disk controller is > one card that fits > onto the 50 way 'bus' ribbon cable, and which > contains a 1771 disk > controller (Single density only) and a 8251-based > serial port (device SIO-4) Um, no! I know nowt about this box - I'll check the disk controller very carefully tonight. Its software is certaining interesting - very wacky code, quite a bit of it polymorphic - just to hurt your brain :-/ The card *is* on the main bus, and is connected to the floppy and serial port. It is also stamped (C)RML, ISTR. I've a really nasty feeling, this machine has been a student project, and they used the floppy controller as a secondary cpu :) Should there be a mostek MT4802 (2Kx8 SRAM) in the socket above the eprom? It doesn't even occupy all the socket (which is suspicious) and the ROM does contain memory sizing routines...they're obvious :) I *really* hope not! Dave. [1] Appologies if you think I spelt it wrogn ;0 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Nov 20 09:40:21 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Commodore Series B-128 In-Reply-To: <3A193E30.ABF8FB64@salsa-digital.com> from James Jackson at "Nov 20, 0 09:07:28 am" Message-ID: <200011201540.HAA12522@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > It was sort of a cross between a C-64 and PET80xx(?) seies computer. > Was real fast at 2-Mhz, and would run many of the C-64 programs > straight out - provided they didn't get too graphics intensive. Huh? I assume you mean simple programs because the memory maps are different as night and day. Also, the behaviour of the 6509 with indirect indexed addressing of LDA and STA instructions is quite different from any other 6502, even the 6510 and 8502, so a fair bit of ML programs won't work right on it (they'll end up accessing different banks, and getting confused). The P500 actually is a better mix of the two, since that has a VIC-II in it for graphics (the B128 and friends were powered by some kind of CRTC and were more like 8000-series PETs than 64s). But the SID is a nice touch. :-) I agree, they are interesting units. Too bad the memory layout was confusing for programmers to the point where they never achieved their potential. :-( But love that sexy case! ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Conceit causes more conversation than wit. -- LaRouchefoucauld ------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 20 09:56:46 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >I've got a pair of RD54s in doubious condition and an RA90 that's not been > >powered up in at least 5 years. > > > >g. > > Hey, you're actually in good shape then. I was afrad that you were going > to say RD53's. However, keep in mind you can probably pick up a SCSI based > VAXstation 3100 with decent RAM and disks for less than you could get a > replacement disk for that system. It would be nice. The power draw would be a damn sight less too. :) g. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Nov 20 10:07:56 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:57 2005 Subject: Cursor Tapes (was Re: CP/M on the TI-99/4A) Message-ID: <20001120160756.35643.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > Speaking of which, I just received the complete set of manuals for the > Waterloo languages this weekend. I also got the SuperPET manual (and > while I'm at it, the first 30 tapes of the Cursor software library...I'm > sure Larry will take notice, unless he already has all of them, which I > think he does :) Does this mean that there are any .T64 files for these? I only have a couple of Cursor tapes, but love to use them to show off what the PET can do (either on the real hardware or on VICE). If there's a place to nab these, I'd love to know about it. If they need to be made, I'd be glad to help (I have a Datasette on a parallel cable and a 486 I use for tape slurping). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Mon Nov 20 10:20:39 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: PDP-11 available, Bristol, UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's time to clear out some space in the garage... I have a PDP-11 available to any collector on the list who'd like to come to Bristol and collect it! According to the yellowing paper sheet taped to the top, it has: M8186 KDF11 LSI 11/23 CPU M8044DB MSV11 Memory 32K M8029 RXV21 Floppy Disk M7952 KWV11A Programmable Real Time Clock M7954 IBV11A Instrument Bus Interface (IEEE-488 I think) M7941 DRV11 Parallel Line Unit M8043 DLV11J Four Async serial interfaces M8047 MXV11 Memory and Async line interfaces I can also supply an LA34 console DECwriter and an LA100 receive-only printer, if required. There's a 19-inch rack with the PDP-11 and a pair of 8-inch floppy disks (RX50s?). Also a spare pair of 8-inch drives, not in the rack. Last time I tried it, the system booted up OK. I have the boot disks, somewhere. Once I find them, I'll let you know. RT-11, I think. The machine was used by INMOS for testing the CAD workstations that they built for chip designs that led to the transputer. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 20 12:48:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: <20001120155025.17438.qmail@web1611.mail.yahoo.com> from "=?iso-8859-1?q?kebabthesheep?=" at Nov 20, 0 07:50:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3969 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001120/66f7d0c8/attachment.ksh From THETechnoid at home.com Mon Nov 20 13:15:46 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001120191408.KHRL2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> This is the way I cracked my Sunbox's root password under solaris: Pull drive from Sunbox. Mount drive on clone running linux, sco, netbsd, openbsd, solaris, whatever will read the partition. Mount partition (read only) copy the etc/passwd and /etc/shadow files to a floppy download a copy of John the Ripper. Run John the Ripper on the passwd/shadow files. John will give you some passwords and usernames Pull drive from work machine and reinstall in original machine. Boot. If root password is included then use it. If not root password then use another you got but set system date in firmware to a date PRIOR to the creation date of the user you are logging in as then log in as that user. The system will panic because your username/password are valid but can't exist yet because of date and will bomb to single-user mode. Change root password. You now have full system access as root. If this does not work with SGI's unix, you can still use John, but it may take a long time to crack the root pw. Like days or even longer. I could be wrong but I think at least some of this will prove useful. I did this on a drive with Solaris 2.4 for Sparc. Regards, Jeff In , on 11/20/00 at 02:15 PM, LFessen106@aol.com said: >I posted this earlier but never received any response or a return message > myself so forgive me if this actually made it to the list and I am >re-posting........ >Just got 2 SGI Personal Iris's 4D/35's today (Thanks again Tom) and no >KB, Mouse, monitor for either. Finally got dumb terminal hooked & >working, and was pleased NOT to find boot password protection, >HOWEVER.... >1 of them still has a working OS, and the other doesn't. I do not have >any OS media for them at all, and the one that IS working has (Of >Course) a root password which I do not have. What I really need here is >a copy of the installation media here. Pleeeaaaasssee Contact me if you >can assist in getting these systems running. I believe the 1 with the >OS problem has the OS, but has no scsi disk label. Perhaps if someone >were to have a root/boot disk they could copy off for me, I could get >them working. I believe they run Iris 4.0.somthingorother. >I am also in the market for an inexpensive KB and mouse combo for at >least one of these. >I also got an HP Apollo 9000/715. Seems to work fine but has abscent hdd >for right now. I hooked it up using my other HP's HPIB KB/Mouse and >monitor. Problem here is for some reason I can not get a serial console >to work on this machine. Can't figure out what the heck I am doing >wrong and was wondering if anyone here knew if I had to set that up in >the HP's settings to get it to work as it doesn't seem to by default. >(Before you ask, I tried both a null-modem and a regular cable on this >on both the rs232 and parallel ports with no luck) >Also will be looking for inexpensive HPIB KB/Mouse for this.. >Thanks for any help you have to offer. >-Linc Fessenden -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From THETechnoid at home.com Mon Nov 20 13:24:32 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Boot CP/m-86 on an IBM XT In-Reply-To: <3A1894B8.FCDBFEF3@home.net> Message-ID: <20001120191543.KJAD2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> I've found that Radio Shack's Teflon lubricant is excellent for lubing drive rails and not having to do it again and again. It comes in a nifty syringe-like 'pen'. Regards, Jeff In <3A1894B8.FCDBFEF3@home.net>, on 11/20/00 at 02:24 PM, Neil Cherry said: >How does one get CP/M-86 on a bootable disk? >BTW: the IBM XT is now working (even the Seagate drive), it has DOS 3.30 >on it. I'm going to clean the floppy and lube the rails a little later to >make sure it's in OK condition. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 20 13:17:53 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> VAXstation 3100 with decent RAM and disks for less than you could get a >> replacement disk for that system. > >It would be nice. The power draw would be a damn sight less too. :) > >g. There is also the issue of noise and heat! But power and disks are the big two. The only reason I can see to have a Q-Bus based VAX as your main VAX is if you need a specific Q-Bus widget. Of course if you're lucky enough to have SCSI for your Q-Bus VAX..... Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Nov 20 13:24:34 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Geekus Deeks Message-ID: <000201c05327$84eb3190$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com> Hi, Has anyone on the list got any response from DECus lately (2~3 months)? I tried signing up about 4 weeks ago and got no response. I would like to do whatever's necessary to join. John A. From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 20 12:26:43 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <200011201442.GAA11174@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Speaking of which, I just received the complete set of manuals for the > > Waterloo languages this weekend. I also got the SuperPET manual (and > > while I'm at it, the first 30 tapes of the Cursor software library...I'm > > sure Larry will take notice, unless he already has all of them, which I > > think he does :) > > Any of the paper issues? I've been looking for the Cursor backissue that > talks about The Other Intellect and the Colour PET. I believe I received a set of them in an earlier shipment from the same person. I'll have to go digging through boxes to check. Maybe I'll come across that Mac mouse while I'm in the process ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com Mon Nov 20 13:28:23 2000 From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Infamous Toshiba power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0011201335470E.00274@Billbob_linux> I have several old Toshiba T1000 laptops, which all are suffering from the (known) problem, where the onboard switching power supply has failed. When you turn on the power switch, the power light comes on for a moment, then winks out (or flashes in some cases). I have been told by a Toshiba insider that this was a well-known defect (much like Toshiba floppy drives) but Toshiba was never willing to own up to it. Hard to say if this is true or not. This problem can be seen in may models of Toshiba notebook, I have even heard of it on Pentium class machines. I'm told that there is a fix, but the techs were not allowed to do it - the official remedy was to replace the board. A person with limited English once told me that I needed to replace the 'filters' on the board - to which end I replaced all of the electrolytic filter caps. The machine ran for 30 seconds, before relapsing. Does anyone know the right fix for this problem? I would be in your debt.. -- Bill Layer Sales Technician From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 20 12:32:00 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Cursor Tapes (was Re: CP/M on the TI-99/4A) In-Reply-To: <20001120160756.35643.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Does this mean that there are any .T64 files for these? I only have a > couple of Cursor tapes, but love to use them to show off what the PET > can do (either on the real hardware or on VICE). I looked on the most likely site to have them: Larry's Classic Commodore/Computing Pages http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html ...but Larry doesn't have them up. > If there's a place to nab these, I'd love to know about it. If they need > to be made, I'd be glad to help (I have a Datasette on a parallel cable and > a 486 I use for tape slurping). I'd be happy to lend them to you for this purpose. E-mail me privately at and we'll figure it out. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From THETechnoid at home.com Mon Nov 20 13:44:18 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <768.359T700T1203829optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20001120193755.KZFB2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> USR has a habit of creating thier own protocols. They could screw up a one-car funeral. Back in the BBS days I hated them passionatly. Now that the real standards USR tried to undermine have become the default, I have to say, thier modems are better than most cheapos in that they are more flexible. The USR Winmodem series (I call them Losemodems) are the worst pieces of garbage ever foisted on the computer world. And I'm including the Intellivision computer module in that appraisal. Regards, Jeff In <768.359T700T1203829optimus@canit.se>, on 11/20/00 at 02:44 PM, "Iggy Drougge" said: >Don Maslin skrev: >>On 19 Nov 2000, Iggy Drougge wrote: >>> Gene Buckle skrev: >>> >>> >> Someone always wants it all! Full duplex on a tin-can, yet. Sheesh! >>> >> >>> >What if we restrict him to a 1200/75 split channel? :) >>> >>> I was rather amused to see the return of split-speed (I never saw the first >>> wave myself, but I'd read about it) when the 56k modems came, which have a >>> 33k6 uplink. >>Split-speed is not that long gone. After all, that was thebasis for US >>Robotics HST protocol, was it not? >Which HST protocol? AFAIK, there were at least two; one 9600 bps and one >16800 bps flavour, as well IIRC a ~12900 flavour for mobile phones. >-- >En ligne avec Thor 2.6. >Was ist ein Erwachsener? Ein Kind, das vom Alter aufgepumpt ist. --- >Simone de Beauvoir -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Mon Nov 20 13:47:16 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help In-Reply-To: from "LFessen106@aol.com" at "Nov 20, 2000 07:30:21 am" Message-ID: <20001120194718Z434144-162+1@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > I posted this earlier but never received any response or a return message > myself so forgive me if this actually made it to the list and I am > re-posting........ I hadn't seen it either, otherwise I would have replied. > > Just got 2 SGI Personal Iris's 4D/35's today (Thanks again Tom) and no KB, > Mouse, monitor for either. Finally got dumb terminal hooked & working, and > was pleased NOT to find boot password protection, HOWEVER.... I have about 6 PI's, covering most of the models and options. The 4D/35 was the top of the line. There are basically two generations of PIs. The first generation is the 4D/20 and 4D/25. The 4D/30 and 4D/35 were added a few years later. There is considerable difference between the two generations. For example the memory architecture was changed rather drastically. The 4D/30 memory is the same as Indigo memory (but not Indigo2). There were also several changes in keyboards. In addition, there was an upgrade path from the 4D/20 to the 4D/30 models, which didn't quite produce an off the shelf 4D/30. There are a number of very interesting bastard configurations out there due to the different upgrade paths. Some of my answers will be kind of vague because of this. I would strongly advice getting the console working. The monitor part is easy, most VGA monitors will work. Depending on the graphics option that's installed in your machine you should have either a VGA or BNC connectors (some of the later graphics options used 13W3 connectors). I've had success with a wide range of monitors. The standard resolution is 1280x1024 I believe (they came standard with 19 and 21 inch monitors), but I've used 1025x768 monitors, a bit fuzzy, but it works. The keyboard and mouse is much harder. There were several models of keyboards used on these machines. What type of keyboard connector to you have? The popular ones were DB9 and PS/2 (note I don't think a PS/2 keyboard will work, but I haven't tried). I can look up the part number tonight when I get home. The keyboards are not that common, but I have seen them on eBay. The mouse attaches to the keyboard. The easiest way to get these machines running is through the console. There is a way to set a terminal to be the console, but I'm not sure how its done on the PI. On some SGIs there is a hardware mechanism, but on others the console must be use (this won't help you much). > > 1 of them still has a working OS, and the other doesn't. I do not have any > OS media for them at all, and the one that IS working has (Of Course) a root > password which I do not have. What I really need here is a copy of the > installation media here. Pleeeaaaasssee Contact me if you can assist in > getting these systems running. I believe the 1 with the OS problem has the > OS, but has no scsi disk label. Perhaps if someone were to have a root/boot > disk they could copy off for me, I could get them working. I believe they > run Iris 4.0.somthingorother. > Its difficult to do much without a console, since all the installation and maintenance procedures assume that you are working through the console by default. What devices do you have? There are two forms of the OS media. The older systems were on tape, and the newer ones were on CD. A may have IRIX 4 tapes at home, which could get you started. The 4D/35 will run up to IRIX 5.3 (something I recommend), and the CDs can be found regularly on eBay. Note that these machines are a bit picky about the CDROM drives they use, older ones are better. It sounds like the previous owner on your second machine wiped the disk. The lack of a disk label is a good indication that there is nothing on the disk. Note, these machines can be network booted, so you could boot from the other machine. Do you have access to any of the accounts on the first machine? Quite often the guest account had no password, so you could try that. If you are successful, run hinv to get your machine's configuration. If you have a console the easiest way to change the root password is to boot a mini-root (this may be on partition 8 of your disk). >From there you can modify the /etc/passwd file. SGI tended to use there own file system structures, so you may not be able to read the disks on other UNIX systems. Let me know if this helps you. My machines are at home, so I can provide any detail until tonight. One word of warning the 4D/30 series machines had a habit of catching fire. The CPU used in the 4D/30 machines generated much more heat than the 4D/20 machines, and the cabinet really wasn't designed for them The upgrade included an extra fan. If any of the fans fail the system overheats. Also run with all the skins on for better heat flow. One of the 4D/35s I had a work caught fire one day, filled the room with smoke. PS: Are there other SGI collectors on the list? I have a fair amount of documentation on the early systems, I also have a working 3130 at home. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca McCalla Professor (780) 492-4584 Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From donm at crash.cts.com Mon Nov 20 13:58:16 2000 From: donm at crash.cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: BBS's In-Reply-To: <20001120193755.KZFB2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote: Because of a mail-server failure I lost the original query on the HST protocal. However, quoting from a 1992 manual for the USRobotics High Speed Modems: "Under V.32 bis modulation, data flows at the same rate in both directions. Under HST modulation, data flow is asymmetrical: the high speed in one direction and 450 bps in the other. The modems switch the fast and slow channels when the volume of data flow changes. Interactive applications appear faster under V.32 modulation, while connection times are faster under HST modulation." - don > USR has a habit of creating thier own protocols. They could screw up a > one-car funeral. Back in the BBS days I hated them passionatly. > > Now that the real standards USR tried to undermine have become the > default, I have to say, thier modems are better than most cheapos in that > they are more flexible. > > The USR Winmodem series (I call them Losemodems) are the worst pieces of > garbage ever foisted on the computer world. And I'm including the > Intellivision computer module in that appraisal. > > Regards, > > Jeff > > > In <768.359T700T1203829optimus@canit.se>, on 11/20/00 > at 02:44 PM, "Iggy Drougge" said: > > >Don Maslin skrev: > > >>On 19 Nov 2000, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > >>> Gene Buckle skrev: > >>> > >>> >> Someone always wants it all! Full duplex on a tin-can, yet. Sheesh! > >>> >> > >>> >What if we restrict him to a 1200/75 split channel? :) > >>> > >>> I was rather amused to see the return of split-speed (I never saw the first > >>> wave myself, but I'd read about it) when the 56k modems came, which have a > >>> 33k6 uplink. > > >>Split-speed is not that long gone. After all, that was thebasis for US > >>Robotics HST protocol, was it not? > > >Which HST protocol? AFAIK, there were at least two; one 9600 bps and one > >16800 bps flavour, as well IIRC a ~12900 flavour for mobile phones. > > >-- > >En ligne avec Thor 2.6. > > >Was ist ein Erwachsener? Ein Kind, das vom Alter aufgepumpt ist. --- > >Simone de Beauvoir > > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > President > Complete Computer Services, Inc. > 30 Greenwood Rd. > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-277-5959 > Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com > THETechnoid@home.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Nov 20 14:11:51 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help In-Reply-To: <20001120191408.KHRL2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> from "THETechnoid@home.com" at "Nov 20, 0 02:15:46 pm" Message-ID: <200011202011.MAA12112@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > If not root password then use another you got but set system date in > firmware to a date PRIOR to the creation date of the user you are logging > in as then log in as that user. The system will panic because your > username/password are valid but can't exist yet because of date and will > bomb to single-user mode. Change root password. Yikes. What OSes have this nasty exploit besides Solaris? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Either he's dead, or my watch has stopped. -- Groucho Marx ----------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Nov 20 14:12:20 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Nov 20, 0 10:26:43 am" Message-ID: <200011202012.MAA09304@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > Speaking of which, I just received the complete set of manuals for the > > > Waterloo languages this weekend. I also got the SuperPET manual (and > > > while I'm at it, the first 30 tapes of the Cursor software library...I'm > > > sure Larry will take notice, unless he already has all of them, which I > > > think he does :) > > > > Any of the paper issues? I've been looking for the Cursor backissue that > > talks about The Other Intellect and the Colour PET. > > I believe I received a set of them in an earlier shipment from the same > person. I'll have to go digging through boxes to check. Maybe I'll come > across that Mac mouse while I'm in the process ;) I await with baited breath :-) thanks. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my eyebrows are too close together." ----- From jjackson at salsa-digital.com Mon Nov 20 14:28:47 2000 From: jjackson at salsa-digital.com (James Jackson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Other CBM trivia? Message-ID: <3A19897F.33AC0D3@salsa-digital.com> I also have a couple of the CBM books on PET BASIC that were printed very early on. I'm doing this from memory, but I believe that one of the authors was Adam Osborne (of the same Osborne computer fame?). I also have a very early book by him about computers and computing in general. It was used as a 'textbook' for a class I took at a junior college here called 'Microcomputer Kit Building'. All of the students were required to start assembling a computer - some even completed their kits. I was about middle-way through with my SwTPC 6800 kit at the time. It was a really cool class - I didn't understand very much of it - way over my head at the time. Regards, James Jackson From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Mon Nov 20 14:40:04 2000 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E9F@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> I've played with a number of SGIs over my career, both at home and at work. I put up a web page a while ago with most of the info I've gleaned ("This Old SGI", http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2258) Unfortunately, the web page is woefully out of date as I haven't had time to go back and restructure it the way I'd like. I am still quite interested in SGIs, but I've broadened my interests to include DEC (PDP-series) and SUN (both old and new) stuff as well. BTW, I agree with the approach below... although you can do quite a bit through the serial console, getting the graphics console up would be much better. The 4D/35 keyboard/mouse is proprietary, but should be available from places like www.reputable.com, www.mce.com and www.mashek.com (and many others who's name escape me at just this moment) The mouse might be fudged using an old Sun mouse and some mods, but I would still recommend getting a "real" SGI mouse as the modified sun mouse doesn't work as well as the real SGI version. Just as in the comments below, I recommend going with Irix 5.3. It will run reasonably on this machine (with sufficient memory), and provide quite a bit of functionality. One thing I _strongly_ recommend... Use an air gun (or canned air) to blow out the dust throughout the entire case (including air plenums, power supply and e-module(where the circuit cards are)). I disassembled mine (including removing the power supply and popping it cover) to clean it. This critter acts just like a vacuum cleaner and will suck dust and dirt up from the bottom airgrate faster than you can imagine. At work, we mounted these things on small (6") pedestals to try to cut down the amount of internal dust they sucked up. I imagine the accumulated dust might contribute to the fire problems mentioned below. BTW, as far a CDROMS go, SGI used Toshibas (I think the models were 3401 or 3501)for quite a while. The important thing is to make certain that they are jumpered for 512K bytes/sector. I believe some of the older Texel/ Plextors will work also. The recommended SCSI ID for SGI CDROMs is ID 4. Another Gotcha... SGI uses scsi ID 0 for it's controller ID, so you should jumper all your scsi drives/devices for id 1-7. ...Good Luck!... -al- -acorda@1bigred.com (also acorda@geocities.com) > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Green [mailto:mark@cs.ualberta.ca] > Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 2:47 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help > > > > I posted this earlier but never received any response or a > return message > > myself so forgive me if this actually made it to the list and I am > > re-posting........ > > I hadn't seen it either, otherwise I would have replied. > > > > > Just got 2 SGI Personal Iris's 4D/35's today (Thanks again > Tom) and no KB, > > Mouse, monitor for either. Finally got dumb terminal > hooked & working, and > > was pleased NOT to find boot password protection, HOWEVER.... > > I have about 6 PI's, covering most of the models and options. The > 4D/35 was the top of the line. There are basically two generations > of PIs. The first generation is the 4D/20 and 4D/25. The 4D/30 > and 4D/35 were added a few years later. There is considerable > difference between the two generations. For example the memory > architecture was changed rather drastically. The 4D/30 memory is > the same as Indigo memory (but not Indigo2). There were also several > changes in keyboards. In addition, there was an upgrade path from > the 4D/20 to the 4D/30 models, which didn't quite produce an off > the shelf 4D/30. There are a number of very interesting bastard > configurations out there due to the different upgrade paths. Some > of my answers will be kind of vague because of this. > > I would strongly advice getting the console working. The monitor > part is easy, most VGA monitors will work. Depending on the graphics > option that's installed in your machine you should have either a > VGA or BNC connectors (some of the later graphics options used > 13W3 connectors). I've had success with a wide range of monitors. > The standard resolution is 1280x1024 I believe (they came standard > with 19 and 21 inch monitors), but I've used 1025x768 monitors, a > bit fuzzy, but it works. > > The keyboard and mouse is much harder. There were several models > of keyboards used on these machines. What type of keyboard > connector to you have? The popular ones were DB9 and PS/2 (note > I don't think a PS/2 keyboard will work, but I haven't tried). > I can look up the part number tonight when I get home. The keyboards > are not that common, but I have seen them on eBay. The mouse attaches > to the keyboard. > > The easiest way to get these machines running is through the > console. There is a way to set a terminal to be the console, > but I'm not sure how its done on the PI. On some SGIs there is > a hardware mechanism, but on others the console must be use (this > won't help you much). > > > > > > 1 of them still has a working OS, and the other doesn't. I > do not have any > > OS media for them at all, and the one that IS working has > (Of Course) a root > > password which I do not have. What I really need here is a > copy of the > > installation media here. Pleeeaaaasssee Contact me if you > can assist in > > getting these systems running. I believe the 1 with the OS > problem has the > > OS, but has no scsi disk label. Perhaps if someone were to > have a root/boot > > disk they could copy off for me, I could get them working. > I believe they > > run Iris 4.0.somthingorother. > > > > Its difficult to do much without a console, since all the installation > and maintenance procedures assume that you are working through the > console by default. What devices do you have? There are two forms > of the OS media. The older systems were on tape, and the newer ones > were on CD. A may have IRIX 4 tapes at home, which could get you > started. The 4D/35 will run up to IRIX 5.3 (something I recommend), > and the CDs can be found regularly on eBay. Note that these machines > are a bit picky about the CDROM drives they use, older ones are > better. > > It sounds like the previous owner on your second machine wiped > the disk. The lack of a disk label is a good indication that there > is nothing on the disk. Note, these machines can be network booted, > so you could boot from the other machine. > > Do you have access to any of the accounts on the first machine? > Quite often the guest account had no password, so you could > try that. If you are successful, run hinv to get your machine's > configuration. > > If you have a console the easiest way to change the root password > is to boot a mini-root (this may be on partition 8 of your disk). > From there you can modify the /etc/passwd file. > > SGI tended to use there own file system structures, so you may > not be able to read the disks on other UNIX systems. > > Let me know if this helps you. My machines are at home, so I > can provide any detail until tonight. One word of warning the > 4D/30 series machines had a habit of catching fire. The CPU > used in the 4D/30 machines generated much more heat than the > 4D/20 machines, and the cabinet really wasn't designed for them > The upgrade included an extra fan. If any of the fans fail the > system overheats. Also run with all the skins on for better > heat flow. One of the 4D/35s I had a work caught fire one > day, filled the room with smoke. > > PS: Are there other SGI collectors on the list? I have a fair > amount of documentation on the early systems, I also have a > working 3130 at home. > > -- > Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca > McCalla Professor (780) 492-4584 > Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) > University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada > From jjackson at salsa-digital.com Mon Nov 20 14:45:54 2000 From: jjackson at salsa-digital.com (James Jackson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help References: <200011202011.MAA12112@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3A198D82.B7D04697@salsa-digital.com> Sun Sparc Stations (at least the II's) had the ability to allow the user to boot to single-user mode. (Don't remember the OS.) When in the single-user mode, then the operator was the 'root' operator and could change the password. It was necessary to do this on one system I was using. I just got the job, the previous employee had set the root password to god knows what, and I was locked out of several features - since I wasn't the root operator. This 'feature' (booting to single-user mode) was not really publicized, as it was a sort of 'loophole' in the system. Regards, James Jackson Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > If not root password then use another you got but set system date > > in firmware to a date PRIOR to the creation date of the user you > > are logging in as then log in as that user. The system will panic > > because your username/password are valid but can't exist yet > > because of date and will bomb to single-user mode. Change root > > password. > > Yikes. What OSes have this nasty exploit besides Solaris? > From LFessen106 at aol.com Mon Nov 20 15:02:32 2000 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help Message-ID: In a message dated Mon, 20 Nov 2000 3:56:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, James Jackson writes: << Sun Sparc Stations (at least the II's) had the ability to allow the user to boot to single-user mode. (Don't remember the OS.) When in the single-user mode, then the operator was the 'root' operator and could change the password. It was necessary to do this on one system I was using. I just got the job, the previous employee had set the root password to god knows what, and I was locked out of several features - since I wasn't the root operator. This 'feature' (booting to single-user mode) was not really publicized, as it was a sort of 'loophole' in the system. Regards, James Jackson >> Yep, you can still do this on Suns (I have a few). Tried it on the SGI as well, however right before the "glory prompt" I was asked for a "Single User Password".. Bummer... -Linc. From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Nov 20 15:02:50 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help References: <200011202011.MAA12112@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <3A198D82.B7D04697@salsa-digital.com> Message-ID: <3A19917A.9990E61C@mainecoon.com> James Jackson wrote: > > Sun Sparc Stations (at least the II's) had the ability to allow the > user to boot to single-user mode. (Don't remember the OS.) The was specific to SunOS; Solaris demands that the root password be supplied when booted in single user mode (or when forced into single user mode, such as with fsck pukes). The easiest way to compromise this is to boot the machine off of another device (CD works dandy); then mount the root partition of the boot drive and whack the /etc/shadow entry. Just further proof that security measures are meaningless in the absence of good physical security... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 20 15:04:43 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Geekus Deeks In-Reply-To: <000201c05327$84eb3190$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com> (John.Allain@donnelley.infousa.com) References: <000201c05327$84eb3190$0e0301ac@databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <20001120210443.1777.qmail@brouhaha.com> "John Allain" wrote: > Has anyone on the list got any response from DECus lately > (2~3 months)? I tried signing up about 4 weeks ago and got > no response. I would like to do whatever's necessary to join. I applied for a membership a few weeks ago. I'm not sure exactly when. I received a reply from Encompass with my membership ID on 14 Nov 2000. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Nov 20 15:08:11 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help In-Reply-To: <20001120191408.KHRL2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> (THETechnoid@home.com) References: <20001120191408.KHRL2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <20001120210811.1875.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jeff wrote: > If not root password then use another you got but set system date in > firmware to a date PRIOR to the creation date of the user you are logging > in as then log in as that user. The system will panic because your > username/password are valid but can't exist yet because of date and will > bomb to single-user mode. The only "Unix" OS I've ever seen keep track of the date a user was created was SCO, and it was part of a horrible misfeature that allowed the sysadmin to delete a user *permanently*, so that the user name could never again be added to the system. From black at gco.apana.org.au Mon Nov 20 15:07:14 2000 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Commodore Liquidation Info References: <3A16B9E7.20861.D37C74@localhost> from David Williams at "Nov 18, 0 05:18:31 pm" <3A16FF43.7469.1E272E7@localhost> <009601c0522f$19f808c0$0101010a@pentium2> Message-ID: <00b001c05335$dbff7d20$cf0136cb@lance> > A few weeks ago someone posted a URL that contained a scan of a Commodore > liquidation document. Does anyone have the address where I can find it? > Thanks > Gareth > -- Gareth, I've got this stored offline (as well as the CSG Liquidation Brochure & one for Commodore Australia as well).an't find 'em, let me know & I'll email 'em to you. Lance From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Nov 20 15:09:31 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: RK8E Message-ID: <20001120210931.29120.qmail@web9504.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Gesswein wrote: > > From: Ethan Dicks > > Subject: Re: Anyone have an RK8E to sell? > > > > I did happen to go look at my RKV11D > > and verified that there is an M993 card at the end of it... > > I thought that the RK8E needed the IC Perhaps. I've never owned a working RK8E. > and the original cable I am using with my RK8E does have it installed. That's pretty suggestive. OTOH, perhaps that's there for RK01/RK03 compatibility? (Just a WAG) > I have a schematic in the RK8E printset but it doesn't show the IC. I, too, have the RK8E printset and the lack of information there is why I had the question in the first place. > If find you need the parts on the board I can pull > the cable and find out what they are. That would be wonderful. A scan of the board would be more than adequate. I can puzzle out the component values from there. > The RK8E (with M993C) and RK05 schematics are on my web site Roger. As I said, though, I have a set, too. Thanks, -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 20 14:10:22 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <200011202012.MAA09304@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I await with baited breath :-) thanks. Oh yeah, what are you trying to catch? ;) (Smart-Ass Word of the Day: bated - reduced in force or intensity) :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Nov 20 15:17:35 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) Message-ID: <20001120211735.89681.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gene Buckle wrote: > I still have one of those huge H???? vampire tap ethernet trancievers that I > modified for 10Base2 that I can hook up to the DEQNA. > g. But does anyone out there use Thicknet at home? I have one vampire tap transceiver (and a bunch of 10Base2). I would love to set up a segment of 10Base5 just for the historical sake of it all. I suppose I would need at least one more 10Base5 transceiver to make it worthwhile. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ From THETechnoid at home.com Mon Nov 20 15:31:03 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001120212522.OABZ2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> In , on 11/20/00 at 04:31 PM, LFessen106@aol.com said: Yea. To boot single user in Linux, just 'B -S'. To boot single user in System V, the same works, but you will have to give the root pw in order to gain access. That was the first thing I tried in Solaris when I was trying to crack the sunbox. BTW, it was owned by the Marshall Space Flight Center and used for rocket exhaust modeling among a couple of other rather boring tasks. I don't think the methods I used to crack the machine's hard disk is neccessarily exploiting a security fault because it assumes physical access to the server (with a screwdriver and a lot of time). Regards, Jeff >Yep, you can still do this on Suns (I have a few). Tried it on the SGI >as well, however right before the "glory prompt" I was asked for a >"Single User Password".. Bummer... >-Linc. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From THETechnoid at home.com Mon Nov 20 15:35:53 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help In-Reply-To: <3A19917A.9990E61C@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20001120212804.OBYM2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Good one on you! I must agree that security for the server's 'person' is paramount. If this is ignored, then you may as well run with a root password of "qwerty". I think it was you (Chris) who turned me on to John the ripper? Regards, Jeff In <3A19917A.9990E61C@mainecoon.com>, on 11/20/00 at 04:35 PM, Chris Kennedy said: >Just further proof that security measures are meaningless in the absence >of good physical security... -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Nov 20 15:31:59 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help In-Reply-To: <3A19917A.9990E61C@mainecoon.com> from Chris Kennedy at "Nov 20, 2000 01:02:50 pm" Message-ID: <200011202132.eAKLW0J18274@bg-tc-ppp181.monmouth.com> > James Jackson wrote: > > > > Sun Sparc Stations (at least the II's) had the ability to allow the > > user to boot to single-user mode. (Don't remember the OS.) > > The was specific to SunOS; Solaris demands that the root > password be supplied when booted in single user mode (or when > forced into single user mode, such as with fsck pukes). Actually, it can be disabled so you can boot to single user mode without a password -- but it does weaken security. > > Just further proof that security measures are meaningless in the > absence of good physical security... Which is why you want Sysadmins, System Managers etc. with A CLUE. > > -- > Chris Kennedy > chris@mainecoon.com > http://www.mainecoon.com > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 > --Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From THETechnoid at home.com Mon Nov 20 15:38:39 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help In-Reply-To: <20001120210811.1875.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20001120213213.OEWB2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Well, in all honesty, the date issue is assumed on my part. The Batt on the NVRAM on my Sparc was dead. This made me assume that the date was at fault when I logged on using a particular username. It might have had to do with faulty permissions or some other issue. I have since replaced the NVram on the processor board, but that does not mean I can't test for the fault in Solaris. It worked for me though, so I have to believe there is something to it. Regards, Jeff In <20001120210811.1875.qmail@brouhaha.com>, on 11/20/00 at 04:38 PM, Eric Smith said: >Jeff wrote: >> If not root password then use another you got but set system date in >> firmware to a date PRIOR to the creation date of the user you are logging >> in as then log in as that user. The system will panic because your >> username/password are valid but can't exist yet because of date and will >> bomb to single-user mode. >The only "Unix" OS I've ever seen keep track of the date a user was >created was SCO, and it was part of a horrible misfeature that allowed >the sysadmin to delete a user *permanently*, so that the user name could >never again be added to the system. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Nov 20 15:41:52 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <3A1927CA.24335.2E56CB7D@localhost> References: <3A15B2B3.26956.73DA22@localhost> Message-ID: <3A194640.30709.CD552@localhost> On 20 Nov 2000, at 13:31, Hans Franke wrote: > Then you'll need a BBC :) Would love one. But I don't find many of those on this side of the pond. Nor many of the other European systems I'd like, such as the current top of my list, the Enterprise. Almost had one but missed it by that (finger and thumb really close together) much. > > There was a 6809 card for the Apple II I would > > have killed for years ago. > > I just got one, a week ago. Some people have all the luck. :) ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 20 15:44:17 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <20001120211735.89681.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 20, 2000 01:17:35 PM Message-ID: <200011202144.NAA17212@shell1.aracnet.com> > --- Gene Buckle wrote: > > I still have one of those huge H???? vampire tap ethernet trancievers that I > > modified for 10Base2 that I can hook up to the DEQNA. > > g. > > But does anyone out there use Thicknet at home? I have one vampire tap > transceiver (and a bunch of 10Base2). I would love to set up a segment > of 10Base5 just for the historical sake of it all. I suppose I would > need at least one more 10Base5 transceiver to make it worthwhile. > > -ethan I still have a 10Base2 segment at home, though it connects to the 10BaseT hub, which in turn is plugged into the 100BaseT switch, which goes to the 100BaseT hub...... Currently my only uses for 10Base2 is my one DECserver 90L+, PowerBook 540c (which when I find a cheap 10BaseT transciever for will be switched) and my Amiga 3000 (currently in storage, but hope to move to my new Apartment one of these days). Until I moved recently the PDP-11/73 had also been on 10Base2. Do I have a point? I guess my point is I'm trying to get off 10Base2, why would I want 10Base5 :^) I'd much rather have another 10/100 Switch than any 10Base5 stuff! Zane From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon Nov 20 16:05:11 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <200011202144.NAA17212@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 01:44:17PM -0800 References: <20001120211735.89681.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> <200011202144.NAA17212@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20001120150511.B1215@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> On Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 01:44:17PM -0800, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Do I have a point? I guess my point is I'm trying to get off 10Base2, why > would I want 10Base5 :^) I'd much rather have another 10/100 Switch than > any 10Base5 stuff! Last I checked, 10base2 still has a distance advantage, perhaps enough to matter for really large buildings. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420 From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Mon Nov 20 16:30:44 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <20001120211735.89681.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Nov 20, 2000 01:17:35 pm" Message-ID: <20001120223053Z434181-2824+40@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > > --- Gene Buckle wrote: > > I still have one of those huge H???? vampire tap ethernet trancievers that I > > modified for 10Base2 that I can hook up to the DEQNA. > > g. > > But does anyone out there use Thicknet at home? I have one vampire tap > transceiver (and a bunch of 10Base2). I would love to set up a segment > of 10Base5 just for the historical sake of it all. I suppose I would > need at least one more 10Base5 transceiver to make it worthwhile. > Yes, I use it to connect a number of my old SGI and DEC machines. I run it to a DELNI so I don't need to do cable taps. Basically this solves the problem of trying to find transceivers for all the old machines. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca McCalla Professor (780) 492-4584 Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From tarsi at binhost.com Mon Nov 20 16:54:16 2000 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <200011202144.NAA17212@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <20001120211735.89681.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001120165212.033188d0@binhost.com> >Do I have a point? I guess my point is I'm trying to get off 10Base2, why >would I want 10Base5 :^) I'd much rather have another 10/100 Switch than >any 10Base5 stuff! Ah, but just think about the _nostalgia_ of having something or other, even if it is a low-end system, communicating with the world on thick net. Then you could say you have all of the major star topologies in your place. Well, maybe not all of them. Honestly, I think it'd be tons of fun to run 10bT, 10b2, 10b5, Token ring, FDDI, LocalTalk, and a whole bunch of other network topologies in my apartment. Kindof a collection of the networking history as well as computer history. I'd be most interested in more info about 10b5 usage. Tarsi 210 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Nov 20 17:11:09 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help In-Reply-To: <20001120212804.OBYM2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> from "THETechnoid@home.com" at "Nov 20, 0 04:35:53 pm" Message-ID: <200011202311.PAA09554@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I think it was you (Chris) who turned me on to John the ripper? So what is it? Is it just a brute-force decrypter? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- armadillo, n. the act of providing weapons to a Spanish pickle. ------------ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Nov 20 17:04:54 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <3A194640.30709.CD552@localhost> References: <3A1927CA.24335.2E56CB7D@localhost> Message-ID: <3A19BC26.13882.9D7459@localhost> > On 20 Nov 2000, at 13:31, Hans Franke wrote: > > Then you'll need a BBC :) > Would love one. But I don't find many of those on this side of the > pond. Nor many of the other European systems I'd like, such as > the current top of my list, the Enterprise. Almost had one but > missed it by that (finger and thumb really close together) much. Well, Enterprise is even rare over here. Maybe you should do a vacation in GB next summer and attend some car boot sales Amazing kind of stuff to find there (just one weekend brough me an HP, a BBC including Z80 _and_ 6502 coproc, a boxed british edition C64, a Z88 and a nice Amstrad CPC :) > > > There was a 6809 card for the Apple II I would > > > have killed for years ago. > > I just got one, a week ago. > Some people have all the luck. :) Searching almost 20 years (and paying 70 Bucks for the lot wheare only the Mill and a 68K singleboarder where realy interesting) isn't what I call luck - just single minded stubborness :) Servus H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 20 17:13:50 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: IMP.... In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001120165212.033188d0@binhost.com> Message-ID: Is Irv Hoff still around? I'd heard rumors of cancer some time ago, but never heard anything more. g. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 20 17:11:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <200011202144.NAA17212@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Nov 20, 0 01:44:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1547 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001120/7277afa7/attachment.ksh From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Nov 20 17:42:01 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <3A19BC26.13882.9D7459@localhost> References: <3A194640.30709.CD552@localhost> Message-ID: <3A196269.18610.7AD6E7@localhost> On 21 Nov 2000, at 0:04, Hans Franke wrote: > Well, Enterprise is even rare over here. So I've gathered. But I keep the faith anyway. :) > Maybe you should do a vacation in GB next summer and What I need to do is get my company to send me to our office in Great Britian for a while. Then I can stick the systems with company stuff that gets shipped back. :) > Searching almost 20 years (and paying 70 Bucks for the lot > wheare only the Mill and a 68K singleboarder where realy > interesting) isn't what I call luck - just single minded > stubborness :) I have to admit, I haven't actively search for one since my early Apple II days but I'll be doing so again now. ;) I have picked up several Apple IIs just for one or two good cards. Of course it leaves me with a lot of spare parts for my Apple II. :) ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Nov 20 17:59:11 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: MacOS 8.1 on an '030 (somewhat OT) Message-ID: <200011202359.PAA09504@stockholm.ptloma.edu> This is absolutely *disturbing*. http://people.ne.mediaone.net/brochner/bornagain/showme.htm -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- FORTUNE: The moon is in Venus' house. This will make no difference. -------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 20 17:52:39 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: kebabthesheep "Re: intro and RML380Z" (Nov 20, 6:59) References: <20001120145940.14406.qmail@web1606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10011202352.ZM4653@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 20, 6:59, kebabthesheep wrote: > I have a dual 3 1/2" + 5 1/4" drive, but I can maybe I > can use one of the drives out of the RM if it doesn't > do 360K correctly? I'd better check on that one... Assuming the drive is a "1.2MB" 5.25", it will probably be capable of reading a 40-track disk, but writing is a different matter -- the track it will lay down will only be approximately half the width of the track a real 40-track drive will use. You will probably get usable results if you bulk-erase the media before writing, but it would be best to make a good copy on the RML drives as soon as you can transfer the disk. Look in the classiccmp archives for the full debate on 35/40/80 tracks, single/double/high density, and the rest :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Nov 20 17:58:21 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: MacOS 8.1 on an '030 (somewhat OT) Message-ID: <20001120.175821.-384275.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Ah, does this mean that his computer will go to heaven? On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:59:11 -0800 (PST) Cameron Kaiser writes: > This is absolutely *disturbing*. > > http://people.ne.mediaone.net/brochner/bornagain/showme.htm > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * > ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- FORTUNE: The moon is in Venus' house. This will make no > difference. -------- ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 20 18:17:26 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: <10011202352.ZM4653@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 20, 0 11:52:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1375 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001121/c1954093/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 20 18:28:35 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: "Shawn T. Rutledge" "Re: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's)" (Nov 20, 15:05) References: <20001120211735.89681.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> <200011202144.NAA17212@shell1.aracnet.com> <20001120150511.B1215@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> Message-ID: <10011210028.ZM4818@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 20, 15:05, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > On Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 01:44:17PM -0800, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > Do I have a point? I guess my point is I'm trying to get off 10Base2, why > > would I want 10Base5 :^) I'd much rather have another 10/100 Switch than > > any 10Base5 stuff! > > Last I checked, 10base2 still has a distance advantage, perhaps enough > to matter for really large buildings. Yes, 185 metres instead of 100m -- and 10base5 will go to 500m. But you can do better and faster with fibre. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 20 18:25:27 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Thicknet (was Re: BBS's)" (Nov 20, 13:17) References: <20001120211735.89681.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10011210025.ZM4814@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 20, 13:17, Ethan Dicks wrote: > But does anyone out there use Thicknet at home? Is there another kind? :-) > I have one vampire tap > transceiver (and a bunch of 10Base2). I would love to set up a segment > of 10Base5 just for the historical sake of it all. I suppose I would > need at least one more 10Base5 transceiver to make it worthwhile. I've got a bit of most common types at home. Well, thick (with nice long blue drops to complement the thick yellow coax), thin, and UTP, anyway. And a few feet of FOIRL too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 20 17:58:02 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: kebabthesheep "Re: intro and RML380Z" (Nov 20, 6:59) References: <20001120145940.14406.qmail@web1606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10011202358.ZM4660@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> > I have a dual 3 1/2" + 5 1/4" drive, but I can maybe I > can use one of the drives out of the RM if it doesn't > do 360K correctly? I'd better check on that one... Hmmm... I should have read that more carefully. If it's what I think you mean, it's a single/double density 80-track 5.25" in there. The same argument about reading/writing 40 tracks on an 80-track drive applies (just as for a 1.2MB "HD" drive) but you won't have to worry about speed (300/360 rpm) or (de)selecting HD. If you're using a PC, though, you may have to find a controller capable of single density. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 20 18:40:41 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:58 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help In-Reply-To: Mark Green "Re: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help" (Nov 20, 12:47) References: <20001120194718Z434144-162+1@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <10011210040.ZM4828@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 20, 12:47, Mark Green wrote: > The keyboard and mouse is much harder. There were several models > of keyboards used on these machines. What type of keyboard > connector to you have? The popular ones were DB9 and PS/2 (note > I don't think a PS/2 keyboard will work, but I haven't tried). > I can look up the part number tonight when I get home. The keyboards > are not that common, but I have seen them on eBay. The mouse attaches > to the keyboard. I haven't checked thoroughly, but I'm fairly sure all the keyboards use the same protocol (a serial protocol, 600 baud IIRC), just different plugs. The 4DFAQ (aka "This Old SGI" -- try a web search) is helpful about this sort of stuff. > The easiest way to get these machines running is through the > console. There is a way to set a terminal to be the console, > but I'm not sure how its done on the PI. On some SGIs there is > a hardware mechanism, but on others the console must be use (this > won't help you much). I thought all the PIs use the first serial line automatically if the keyboard isn't connected? > > 1 of them still has a working OS, and the other doesn't. I do not have any > > OS media for them at all, and the one that IS working has (Of Course) a root > > password which I do not have. What I really need here is a copy of the > > installation media here. Pleeeaaaasssee Contact me if you can assist in > > getting these systems running. I believe the 1 with the OS problem has the > > OS, but has no scsi disk label. Perhaps if someone were to have a root/boot > > disk they could copy off for me, I could get them working. I believe they > > run Iris 4.0.somthingorother. > > > > Its difficult to do much without a console, since all the installation > and maintenance procedures assume that you are working through the > console by default. What devices do you have? There are two forms > of the OS media. The older systems were on tape, and the newer ones > were on CD. A may have IRIX 4 tapes at home, which could get you > started. The 4D/35 will run up to IRIX 5.3 (something I recommend), > and the CDs can be found regularly on eBay. Note that these machines > are a bit picky about the CDROM drives they use, older ones are > better. I agree; definitely get 5.3 if you can. It does take more disk space, though. > If you have a console the easiest way to change the root password > is to boot a mini-root (this may be on partition 8 of your disk). > >From there you can modify the /etc/passwd file. If you can't get to that, because there's a password set in the NVRAM, so you can't get to the PROM monitor, the FAQ describes one way to defeat the NVRAM password. > SGI tended to use there own file system structures, so you may > not be able to read the disks on other UNIX systems. Did 4.0.5 etc use EFS? 5.3 does, and Linux can mount/read that. > PS: Are there other SGI collectors on the list? Yes, but most of mine are later than these -- three Indigos, two Indys, and an Indigo^2. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 20 18:39:28 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's)" (Nov 20, 23:11) References: Message-ID: <10011210039.ZM4824@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 20, 23:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > Do I have a point? I guess my point is I'm trying to get off 10Base2, why > > Hmmm... I'm moving towards 10Base2 and away from 10BaseT > > For older (classic) computers, the bus bandwidth won't support 100Mbps > ethernet, so you have to go with one of the 10Mbps standards (I'll ignore > the original 3Mbps.. :-)). > > 10BaseT seems to have advantages when : > The computers are spread out all over the building (which doesn't apply > to my setup, where most of the networkable machines are next to each other) > > The network is being used by a number of people. After all, unplugging > the 'wrong' BNC connector from a T-piece can bring the entire network > down. This doesn't happen if you're the only person fiddling with the > network. > > Against that : > > 10BaseT needs a hub. This is one more thing to find space for, one more > thing to have to power, and one more thing that you have to maintain. > Getting spare chips for most hubs is a lot harder than getting spare chips > for 10base2 transceivers. > > Adding a machine to a 10BaseT network means running a cable back to the > hub. Adding a machine to a 10Base2 network can mean just patching it to > the cables on the nearest machine. Yes, the latter does bring the network > down, but with my setup, that's less of a problem than running another > cable. > > The BNC connector is a lot faster to wire than that darn RJ45, > particularly when you have fiddle about with the wires to get them to the > right contacts. And the solid, metal, BNC connector would seem to be more > reliable than the RJ45 as well. I tend to disagree with that. I've had lots of BNC's come off or go flaky after someone has pulled the cable, but I've only once had that happen to an RJ45. And I bet I can strip and crimp an RJ45 as fast as most people can crimp a BNC. The reason I like UTP is that if you once put in the infrastructure, you can use the structured wiring for lots of things. At work, we run Ethernet, RS232, telephones (POTS), ISDN, and video over Cat5/5e structured wiring. At home, I put in cables in lots of places and use it for serial, network, ISDN, and POTS. You do need to put enough cable in enough places, though. The other reason, of course, is that there are lots more LEDs to flash if you use a hub :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rdd at smart.net Mon Nov 20 19:03:21 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <20001120211735.89681.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > But does anyone out there use Thicknet at home? I have one vampire tap > transceiver (and a bunch of 10Base2). I would love to set up a segment Not yet, but I want one. Would't part of the fun of having such a network be that you can say that your house has vampire taps in it? :-) -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 20 18:15:59 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <3A19BC26.13882.9D7459@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > Searching almost 20 years (and paying 70 Bucks for the lot > wheare only the Mill and a 68K singleboarder where realy > interesting) isn't what I call luck - just single minded > stubborness :) In your case it's more like scary German fanaticism :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 20 18:22:29 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > 10BaseT needs a hub. This is one more thing to find space for, one more > thing to have to power, and one more thing that you have to maintain. > Getting spare chips for most hubs is a lot harder than getting spare chips > for 10base2 transceivers. All non-issues. Small, uses relatively little power, and have you ever really seen a hub die? I haven't, and I expect the one I'm using now to last forever. > Adding a machine to a 10BaseT network means running a cable back to the > hub. Adding a machine to a 10Base2 network can mean just patching it to > the cables on the nearest machine. Yes, the latter does bring the network > down, but with my setup, that's less of a problem than running another > cable. And making sure you've used the right cable, and making sure you've crimped the connector probably, and making sure you've observed the correct distance between nodes :) Sure this gets easy after you've done it a few times. Also, didn't we argue over this before, and you were saying how you'd rather solder your connectors rather than crimp RJ-45 connectors? You never did explain how that was easier th :) > The BNC connector is a lot faster to wire than that darn RJ45, > particularly when you have fiddle about with the wires to get them to the > right contacts. And the solid, metal, BNC connector would seem to be more > reliable than the RJ45 as well. Oh yes, here we are. Trust me, after having done both many, many, many times, I prefer the ease of the RJ-45 over the BNC connector any day. I've ruined far more BNC connectors than I have RJ-45s. But anyway, it works better for me since I have CAT5 running throughout the house so I can always have a net connected computer nearby. If all your machines are in one place, or you have a small server cluster, coax is a bit more convenient for sure. But I've found that the cables can become unreliable over time (the BNC connectors get loose if moved around a lot). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From LFessen106 at aol.com Mon Nov 20 19:35:32 2000 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help Message-ID: <51.3c1d2c9.274b2b66@aol.com> In a message dated Mon, 20 Nov 2000 2:52:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mark Green writes: <> Yes, I got a monitor hooked up to it without prblms. I have both SVGA's that will handle it and also a few RGB's that'll take care of it as well. <> They both have the PS2 KB port.. I tried an actual PS2 KB, it lit up as expected, but I got a no console error.. Do you think it will actually use a PS2 KB and just needs to detect a mouse as well (with a PS2 splitter) or the SGI PS2 KB/Mouse is proprietary? I did read somewhere that some SGI's use a standard PS2 KB... <>> I would really appreciate that. <> I can get the console through a dumb terminal easily by using a regular modem cable (NOT null) on serial port 1. Works like a charm, but no lovely grfx.. <> I would be eternally gratefull for somekind of media. There are no tape drives on these things at all - they both have 2 scsi drives and a scsi floppy installed. The only OS info I can find is that the one runs Irix 4.0. (5 or 2 can't remember). I do (of course) have an external scsi cdrom (works on a sun) and a couple external DAT drives that I bet would work on teh SGI's. <> Unfortunately I think you're right. <> Tried 'em all - Nope.. <From there you can modify the /etc/passwd file.>> How would I go about doing this? <> Thanks for all your help Mark, I appreciate it! -Linc Fessenden From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 20 18:30:42 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <10011210039.ZM4824@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I tend to disagree with that. I've had lots of BNC's come off or go flaky > after someone has pulled the cable, but I've only once had that happen to > an RJ45. And I bet I can strip and crimp an RJ45 as fast as most people > can crimp a BNC. Probably faster. With a BNC connector, unless you have a real fancy stripper, you first have to strip off material leaving the core conductor, then strip off some more to expose the ground shielding. Then you have to hope you got the lengths right. Then you must spread out the ground sheilding to accept the connector. Put the little pin on top of the center conductor, then you have to make sure you've put the metal crimping ring on the cable BEFORE you've spread out the ground shielding and put the connector on (argh! how many times have you done that?). Squash it all together, move the ring up and over the shielding, then crimp, hoping none of the shielding strands are sticking out making it look ugly. RJ-45 is strip the shielding off, arrange the wires in correct order, insert them into the connector and crimp. It takes a little times as well, but not nearly as much time as a BNC connector takes, and it's far easier and much less prone to error than the BNC. The worst thing is crimping a damn BNC connector for the third time and it STILL doesn't work. With an RJ-45 you can at least see if the wires have been inserted all the way by looking at the end of the connector. And you can do this before you crimp it. > The reason I like UTP is that if you once put in the infrastructure, you > can use the structured wiring for lots of things. At work, we run > Ethernet, RS232, telephones (POTS), ISDN, and video over Cat5/5e structured > wiring. At home, I put in cables in lots of places and use it for serial, > network, ISDN, and POTS. You do need to put enough cable in enough places, > though. I tend to prefer structure over chaos, at least where my technology is concerned. > The other reason, of course, is that there are lots more LEDs to flash if > you use a hub :-) Reason enough for me! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 20 18:32:13 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <10011210028.ZM4818@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Last I checked, 10base2 still has a distance advantage, perhaps enough > > to matter for really large buildings. > > Yes, 185 metres instead of 100m -- and 10base5 will go to 500m. But you > can do better and faster with fibre. Yes, but if I'm not mistaken, the total length of a 10base2 segment is 185 meters. 10baseT is 100m for each run. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From LFessen106 at aol.com Mon Nov 20 19:49:18 2000 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help Message-ID: <41.3b3bc96.274b2e9f@aol.com> In a message dated Mon, 20 Nov 2000 3:48:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, Corda Albert J DLVA writes: << I've played with a number of SGIs over my career, both at home and at work. I put up a web page a while ago with most of the info I've gleaned ("This Old SGI", http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2258) Unfortunately, the web page is woefully out of date as I haven't had time to go back and restructure it the way I'd like.>> I love that site - it's the one that provided nearly all the info I have on these up to this point! <> Anyone interested in helping me with *inexpensive* media for these? <> After opening the cases I noticed that these suck dirt better than a hoover!!.. <<...Good Luck!... -al->> Thanks for all the info Al! -Linc. From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Nov 20 19:51:02 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Nov 20, 2000 11:11:29 pm" Message-ID: <200011210151.RAA04662@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > For older (classic) computers, the bus bandwidth won't support 100Mbps > ethernet, so you have to go with one of the 10Mbps standards (I'll ignore > the original 3Mbps.. :-)). I've only found one place where it's a problem so far, with an NE2000 card in a slow XT compatible the data rate (even at 10 Mbps) was too high for it it handle without dropping packets. I solved that by getting a 3COM card. I suppose it's a problem on other machines without buffered receivers. Then again the bulk of my really slow machines are serial line connected. > 10BaseT seems to have advantages when : > The computers are spread out all over the building (which doesn't apply > to my setup, where most of the networkable machines are next to each other) There are other advantages of 10BaseT over 10Base2. You can use a switch so you aren't sharing your entire bandwidth among every machine. You can go full duplex and avoid collisions. You can mix 10 and 100 Mbps devices without slowing down the fast devices. You might not need to rewire for gigabit ethernet. Your attachment to the rest of the world will probably be RJ45. > Against that : > > 10BaseT needs a hub. This is one more thing to find space for, one more > thing to have to power, and one more thing that you have to maintain. Hubs and switches are getting cheap and small. An 8 port switch is about the size of 8 ports. The only reason to get a big old hub is if you want vintage ethernet hardware. Fortunately my collecting bug stops at the network connection. > Adding a machine to a 10BaseT network means running a cable back to the > hub. Or adding a hub near the machine. I like a switch on each floor and a hub in each room. > The BNC connector is a lot faster to wire than that darn RJ45, > particularly when you have fiddle about with the wires to get them to the > right contacts. And the solid, metal, BNC connector would seem to be more > reliable than the RJ45 as well. No arguments there. Another general complaint is that 10BaseT to 10Base2 media converters are too damn expensive. You can't swing a live cat without hitting a coax AUI tranciever in a junk bin, but I've never seen 10BaseT-coax converter that didn't cost $100+. Eric From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 20 20:00:39 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <200011210151.RAA04662@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at Nov 20, 2000 05:51:02 PM Message-ID: <200011210200.SAA04602@shell1.aracnet.com> > Another general complaint is that 10BaseT to 10Base2 media converters are > too damn expensive. You can't swing a live cat without hitting a coax > AUI tranciever in a junk bin, but I've never seen 10BaseT-coax converter > that didn't cost $100+. > > Eric Well, when I was initially shifting from 10Base2 to 10/100BaseT at home I bought a 8-Port 10/100 Hub, and a 10BaseT-to-10Base2 converter. Definitly very expensive. I've since replaced the converter with a 8-port 10BaseT Hub that has a 10Base2 connector (cost me $5 at a swap meet). Wish I'd just bought a 10BaseT hub like that one with the 10/100 Hub when I did my initial switchover. Zane From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Nov 20 20:03:47 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: MacOS 8.1 on an '030 (somewhat OT) In-Reply-To: <200011202359.PAA09504@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001120210347.008d3cf8@earthlink.net> At 03:59 PM 11/20/00 -0800, you wrote: >This is absolutely *disturbing*. > >http://people.ne.mediaone.net/brochner/bornagain/showme.htm http://www.lowendmac.com is the place to find info on doing stuff concerning upgrades of any and all Mac's. Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ From mbg at world.std.com Mon Nov 20 21:01:20 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Geekus Deeks Message-ID: <200011210301.WAA02494@world.std.com> > Has anyone on the list got any response from DECus lately > (2~3 months)? I tried signing up about 4 weeks ago and got > no response. I would like to do whatever's necessary to join. I'm totally disgusted with DECUS/Encompass... I think someone pulled a fast one on the membership. I understand there were two votes recently. I got my ballot for the first one... I didn't get a second, so I sent email to the location specified on the encompass web page. I never received the second ballot, and after the deadline had occurred, I got mail back indicating it (my email) had gone to the wrong place (I would have expected the mailto: link would have been set correctly). Anyway, at this point I don't care... DECUS is gone. I don't know of anything to bring it back. I won't be renewing with encompass, it doesn't meet my needs at all. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From rdd at smart.net Mon Nov 20 21:19:58 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > Do I have a point? I guess my point is I'm trying to get off 10Base2, why > > Hmmm... I'm moving towards 10Base2 and away from 10BaseT Ah, I've never used anything but 10Base2 at home for stringing wires throughout the house. :-) ...with the exception of a few close machines connected to AUI cables and a DELNI-like hub. If I move to anything else, it will probably be the yellow cable with vampire taps. > For older (classic) computers, the bus bandwidth won't support 100Mbps > ethernet, so you have to go with one of the 10Mbps standards (I'll ignore > the original 3Mbps.. :-)). ...not even for a couple of machines on a subnet just for fun? :-) -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD From tarsi at binhost.com Sun Nov 19 22:18:40 2000 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <10011210028.ZM4818@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <"Shawn T. Rutledge" <20001120211735.89681.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> <200011202144.NAA17212@shell1.aracnet.com> <20001120150511.B1215@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001119221817.00b912e0@binhost.com> > >Yes, 185 metres instead of 100m -- and 10base5 will go to 500m. But you >can do better and faster with fibre. Well, wouldn't we ALL like fiber, but I just don't think it's in my budget. :) Tarsi 210 210-------------210-------------------210 VISIT OrangeCAM! http://orangenet.dhs.org/~cam/ tarsi@binhost.com http://orangenet.dhs.org http://tarsi.binhost.com http://www.foreverbeyond.org 210-------------210-------------------210 From rdd at smart.net Mon Nov 20 22:37:19 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Geekus Deeks In-Reply-To: <200011210301.WAA02494@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Megan wrote: > I'm totally disgusted with DECUS/Encompass... I think someone pulled > a fast one on the membership. I understand there were two votes [...] Yes, like Compaq pulled a fast one on DEC. Of course, to be fair, DEC dug its own grave when it climbed into bed with that certain something rather filthy of ill repute known as Microsloth, and began hawking Windbows Numblskull Technology while allowing itself to wither away to the depths of PeeCee. > Anyway, at this point I don't care... DECUS is gone. I don't know of Alas, DECUS is no more, murdered by Compaq in the year 2000 as part of it's apparent plot to do away with reasonable computing as many of us know it. When I received that first Encompass ballot (didn't receive a second one either), something told me that this was the final knife in the back of all things named DEC. All that said, is there anything stopping anyone from forming a new DECUS? ...the Digital Equipment _Classics_ Users Society? :-) ...independent of Compaq, that is. With Compaq having obliterated DECUS, what will become of the hobbyist licenses and CDROMs? > anything to bring it back. I won't be renewing with encompass, it doesn't > meet my needs at all. Everything I've received from Encompass has been tossed out for recycling with the old newspapers, etc. -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Nov 20 23:02:44 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: MacOS 8.1 on an '030 (somewhat OT) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20001120210347.008d3cf8@earthlink.net> from Jeff Hellige at "Nov 20, 0 09:03:47 pm" Message-ID: <200011210502.VAA09016@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >This is absolutely *disturbing*. > > > >http://people.ne.mediaone.net/brochner/bornagain/showme.htm > > http://www.lowendmac.com is the place to find info on doing stuff > concerning upgrades of any and all Mac's. No, I saw it there originally. I just think it's disturbing to have a IIci running 8.1 ;-) > Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 7300 with a 400MHz G3, nyah nyah. ;-) (Just kidding.) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- I believe in getting into hot water; it keeps you clean. -- G.K. Chesterton From bill_r at inetnebr.com Mon Nov 20 23:34:43 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: OT: Toshiba XXe Key Phone System Info? In-Reply-To: References: <2rlg1ts35f69q7as8fc522c7p49uta4ld4@4ax.com> Message-ID: <452k1too9mbs7dfug78t62ep9kq9fgk8sq@4ax.com> On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:42:51 -0800 (PST), sellam@vintage.org wrote: > >You generally will not find any sort of manuals for phone systems on the >web like you will old computer manuals. Phone guys are archaic. Knowledge >is passed by word of mouth or by hard-copying manuals. Nobody has ever >thought to scan any of these old manuals in and post them online in an >archive like the computer hobbyists do (although many times I wish someone >with more time than I have would do so). Mostly this is because nobody >tinkers with old phone systems as a pasttime. You only need the manual >once, usually to install and configure, and then after that it gets tucked >away somewhere. You memorize what you need to know. Also, nobody wants >to post something online that they can charge money for :) > >Anyway, all that being said, if you can't turn up a manual anywhere else, >I'm almost positive we have one for the Strata DK in our library at my >office. I can run a copy for you. > >Contact me at if you're interested (consider this an >olive branch ;) > I appreciate the offer, and the information. Much to my surprise, however, I found a company on the web who not only sells old manuals, but will let you download them in PDF format. The manual I had requested had not been scanned from paper when I called around noon. By 5pm, they had scanned and OCR'ed (with illustrations) about 340 pages and placed them in a PDF file for me to download. Total cost was $55. Using this information I was able to get the phone system up and running with the operator's console and a couple of extensions so I can figure out how it all works. -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From donm at crash.cts.com Mon Nov 20 23:48:33 2000 From: donm at crash.cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: IMP.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Gene Buckle wrote: > Is Irv Hoff still around? I'd heard rumors of cancer some time ago, but > never heard anything more. > g. Irv died a number of years back, Gene. My guess is 8-10, but I cannot prove it at the moment. - don From spc at conman.org Mon Nov 20 23:51:47 2000 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Nov 20, 2000 04:22:29 PM Message-ID: <200011210551.AAA20914@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Sellam Ismail once stated: > > On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > 10BaseT needs a hub. This is one more thing to find space for, one more > > thing to have to power, and one more thing that you have to maintain. > > Getting spare chips for most hubs is a lot harder than getting spare chips > > for 10base2 transceivers. > > All non-issues. Small, uses relatively little power, and have you ever > really seen a hub die? I haven't, and I expect the one I'm using now to > last forever. Not really. Try finding a spare power outlet in my Computer Room. Go ahead. My last piece of equipment (Belkin OmniView Pro 8-Port) required a complete reorganization of the computer room (okay, part of that was power, the other half locating it such that the cables would run from the console to it, and from there to each machine). And yes, I've seen a hub die. Any one want a dead hub? -spc (Running primarily 10Base2---not all the machines here have 10BaseT connectors) From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Nov 21 01:40:44 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail's message of "Mon, 20 Nov 2000 16:22:29 -0800 (PST)" References: Message-ID: <200011210740.eAL7eis49465@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > 10BaseT needs a hub. This is one more thing to find space for, one more > > thing to have to power, and one more thing that you have to maintain. > All non-issues. Small, uses relatively little power, and have you ever And it invariably wants that relatively little power to be delivered via a fat wall wart that occludes two outlets on the nearby power strip. Ducky. But don't mind me, I'm just irked because R*d H*t L*n*x 7.0's de4x5 driver doesn't seem to want to grasp that there's a BNC connector on the card, let alone that that's where the network is connected, so there is now a hunk of Cat5 leading to a shiny new hub (with BNC connector) sitting on top of that box, and a new wall wart occluding two outlets on the power strip. ObClassicCmp funnies: maybe it's just that my Un*x preferences run along BSD lines (with the exception of HP-UX version 5 on 9000/500s), but R*d H*t sure makes me think of the old joke about AIX: it's like what a Martian might do if his buddy returning from a survey of the blue planet told him about this really neat operating system called Unix that they use over yonder. ObClassicCmp2: so how many Thicknet folks actually have the tap installation tool? You know, the one that looks like a drill bit mounted in a plastic handle? -Frank McConnell From red at bears.org Tue Nov 21 02:09:26 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help In-Reply-To: <51.3c1d2c9.274b2b66@aol.com> Message-ID: > They both have the PS2 KB port.. I tried an actual PS2 KB, it lit up as > expected, but I got a no console error.. Do you think it will actually use a > PS2 KB and just needs to detect a mouse as well (with a PS2 splitter) or the > SGI PS2 KB/Mouse is proprietary? I did read somewhere that some SGI's use a > standard PS2 KB... Some do, but not the PI/Indigo. They use the same physical connector as the PS/2 interface, but it's not the same. The giveaway is that there is no separate mouse port---it plugs into the keyboard. The PS/2 interface doesn't work that way. > floppy installed. The only OS info I can find is that the one runs Irix 4.0. > (5 or 2 can't remember). I do (of course) have an external scsi cdrom (works > on a sun) and a couple external DAT drives that I bet would work on teh SGI's. 4.0.5 is the canonical IRIX 4.x version. Beware the endless patch levels though. I believe 4.0.5f is the final version, but I could be mistaken. I believe the distribution media for 4.x was limited to CD or QIC. > Thanks for all your help Mark, I appreciate it! One more thing, I believe that Linux has loadable filesystem module support for EFS, which would be the filesystem used by these systems. I can't say whether this is read/write support or simply read-only, but it might be worth investigating. I don't make a point of staying abreast on what's new and improved with Linux. ok r. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Nov 21 01:36:19 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-89 free to good home Message-ID: This guy in the Boston area has a Heathkit H-89 he would like to give away. Please contact him directly. Reply-to: sussman@alum.mit.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:37:58 -0800 From: Steven Sussman Subject: VCF Feedback! I'm giving away a Heathkit(Zenith) H-89 to whomever will take it off my hands in the Boston area. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 21 01:42:50 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Geekus Deeks In-Reply-To: <200011210301.WAA02494@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Megan wrote: > I never received the second ballot, and after the deadline had > occurred, I got mail back indicating it (my email) had gone to > the wrong place (I would have expected the mailto: link would > have been set correctly). Re-vote! Call the lawyers! Notify the canvassing commission!! Check the chads! Was the ballot legal? We need Jessie Jackson to represent the disenfranchised black contingent! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 21 01:44:53 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: OT: Toshiba XXe Key Phone System Info? In-Reply-To: <452k1too9mbs7dfug78t62ep9kq9fgk8sq@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Bill Richman wrote: > I appreciate the offer, and the information. Much to my surprise, however, > I found a company on the web who not only sells old manuals, but will let > you download them in PDF format. The manual I had requested had not been The URL would be nice :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 21 01:46:02 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <200011210551.AAA20914@conman.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Not really. Try finding a spare power outlet in my Computer Room. Go > ahead. My last piece of equipment (Belkin OmniView Pro 8-Port) required a > complete reorganization of the computer room (okay, part of that was power, > the other half locating it such that the cables would run from the console > to it, and from there to each machine). I personally would not let the silly lack of an outlet cause me to wire all my machines up using an inferior cabling scheme. But that's just me. :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 21 01:48:13 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <200011210740.eAL7eis49465@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 20 Nov 2000, Frank McConnell wrote: > And it invariably wants that relatively little power to be delivered > via a fat wall wart that occludes two outlets on the nearby power strip. > Ducky. Unless a) you have a hub like mine that has an internal power supply and takes a standard computer cable or b) you buy the right kind of outlet that has room to accomodate bulky power supplies. > But don't mind me, I'm just irked because R*d H*t L*n*x 7.0's de4x5 > driver doesn't seem to want to grasp that there's a BNC connector on > the card, let alone that that's where the network is connected, so > there is now a hunk of Cat5 leading to a shiny new hub (with BNC > connector) sitting on top of that box, and a new wall wart occluding > two outlets on the power strip. See above :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 21 03:03:20 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help In-Reply-To: LFessen106@aol.com "Re: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help" (Nov 20, 20:35) References: <51.3c1d2c9.274b2b66@aol.com> Message-ID: <10011210903.ZM5284@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 20, 20:35, LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > They both have the PS2 KB port.. I tried an actual PS2 KB, it lit up as > expected, but I got a no console error.. Do you think it will actually use a > PS2 KB and just needs to detect a mouse as well (with a PS2 splitter) or the > SGI PS2 KB/Mouse is proprietary? I did read somewhere that some SGI's use a > standard PS2 KB... Indy, Indigo^2, O2, etc use a PS/2 keyboard (or a PC-AT keyboard with a DIN to miniDIN adaptor) and PS/2 mouse, running at +5 volts. All the earlier machines use one of several variants of a proprietary protocol/pinout, basically RS423 running at +/- 8 volts or more. >From the manual page: The pin assignments for the DIN-6 keyboard connector on the CPU board of some of the newer systems are shown in the following table: ___________________________________ |_____KEYBOARD_CABLE_PINOUT_______| |Pin | Signal | Description | |____|________|___________________| | 1 | KRCD | Keyboard Receive | | 2 | MRCD | Mouse Receive | | 3 | GND | Ground | | 4 | +8Vdc | Power | | 5 | KTXD | Keyboard Transmit | |_6__|_-8Vdc__|_Power_____________| For machines whose keyboards have the DIN-6 connector on the keyboard, as well as on the CPU, the pinout is shown in the following table. The connectors on both sides of the keyboard have identical pinout, either may be used for the mouse and the cable to the CPU. __________________________________ | KEYBOARD CONNECTOR PINOUT | |_________________________________| |Pin_|_Signal_|_Description_______| | 1 | KTXD | Keyboard Transmit | | 2 | MTXD | Mouse Transmit | | 3 | GND | Ground | | 4 | +8Vdc | Power | | 5 | KRCD | Keyboard Receive | | 6 | NC | Not Connected | |____|________|___________________| The interface between the keyboard and the system is 600 baud asynchronous. The format used is one start bit followed by eight data bits, an odd parity bit and one stop bit, with one byte sent per key up or down transition. The MSB of the byte is a "0" for a downstroke and a "1" for an upstroke. Control bytes are sent to the keyboard with the same speed and format. The system software does all the processing needed to support functions such as capitalization, control characters, and numeric lock. Auto-repeat for a specified set of characters can be turned on or off by the system software by sending a control byte to the keyboard. When auto-repeat is enabled a pressed key will begin auto- repeating after 0.65 seconds and repeat 28 times per second. The keyboard initializes upon power-up. The configuration request control byte causes the keyboard to send a two-byte sequence to the system. The second byte contains the eight-bit value set on a DIP switch in the keyboard. All keyboard lights (if any; some newer systems have keyboards without user controllable lights) are controlled by the system software by sending control bytes to the keyboard to turn them on or off. Control bytes are also used for long and short beep control and key click disable. For the mouse: Signals: The serial data interface signal level is compatible with RS-423 which has roughly a 10V swing centered about ground. The idle state and true data bits for the interface are Mark level or -5V whereas false data bits and the start bit are spaces or +5V. The serial data is transmitted at 4800 baud with one start bit, eight data bits, and no parity. Protocol: The mouse provides a five-byte data block whenever there is a change of position or button state. The first byte is a sync byte which has its upper five bits set to 10000 and its lower three bits indicating the button states where a 0 indicates depression. The sync byte looks like this: 10000LMR. The next four bytes contain two difference updates of the mouse's change in position: X1, Y1, X2, and Y2. Positive values indicate movement to the right or upward. System software ignores bytes beyond the first five until reception of the next sync byte. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 21 03:09:21 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: Tarsi "Re: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's)" (Nov 19, 22:18) References: <"Shawn T. Rutledge" <20001120211735.89681.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> <200011202144.NAA17212@shell1.aracnet.com> <20001120150511.B1215@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001119221817.00b912e0@binhost.com> Message-ID: <10011210909.ZM5300@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 19, 22:18, Tarsi wrote: > >Yes, 185 metres instead of 100m -- and 10base5 will go to 500m. But you > >can do better and faster with fibre. > > Well, wouldn't we ALL like fiber, but I just don't think it's in my budget. :) Not really in mine either, but I have a few bits of cast off FOIRL and long patch leads that were discarded (wrong connectors for the more modern kit). Anyway, since most of my machines are within 50m of each other, and few can manage 100MB let alone more, there's little point in buying fibre for my home systems :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Nov 21 03:28:41 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001116080724.0322a670@pc> References: Message-ID: <3A1A4E59.948.2D71E9@localhost> > At 04:54 PM 11/10/00 +0000, John Honniball wrote: > >Absolutely. It was just like an 8086, as far as the > >programmer was concerned, but it had a few on-chip > >peripherals. > The threat of being asked to program the 80186 in assembler > all day long played a major part in my decision to quit a > job back in 1985 or so. I knew my brain would melt, so I > became a freelance writer in the Amiga market. Shure ? I had to go thru the same kind of decision, and I learned to love the 186 - shure, one needs a little push to start, but later on it's just great - eventualy the best _sixteen_ bit CPU around. If you look at the 8080/5, Z80, 8086 and 80186 family, the 186 is the finest of all. Sleak and simple - compared the 68K looks quite bloaded and clumpsy (ok, it's 32 bit, but still the most compared competition at it's time). Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From spc at conman.org Tue Nov 21 03:49:44 2000 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Nov 20, 2000 11:48:13 PM Message-ID: <200011210949.EAA21121@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Sellam Ismail once stated: > > > But don't mind me, I'm just irked because R*d H*t L*n*x 7.0's de4x5 > > driver doesn't seem to want to grasp that there's a BNC connector on > > the card, let alone that that's where the network is connected, so > > there is now a hunk of Cat5 leading to a shiny new hub (with BNC > > connector) sitting on top of that box, and a new wall wart occluding > > two outlets on the power strip. > > See above :) No no no. You're supposed to say: # ifport 10Base2 -spc (And if that doesn't work, then I don't know ... ) From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Nov 21 03:50:03 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: References: <3A19BC26.13882.9D7459@localhost> Message-ID: <3A1A535B.12987.4104B6@localhost> > On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > > Searching almost 20 years (and paying 70 Bucks for the lot > > wheare only the Mill and a 68K singleboarder where realy > > interesting) isn't what I call luck - just single minded > > stubborness :) > In your case it's more like scary German fanaticism :) Ve vill feinaly rule ze klazzik komp szene ! Gruss H. (Well, No idea if this sounds right - I guess John L. should be casted for the voice part :) -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From spc at conman.org Tue Nov 21 04:00:12 2000 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip In-Reply-To: <3A1A4E59.948.2D71E9@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Nov 21, 2000 10:28:41 AM Message-ID: <200011211000.FAA21135@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Hans Franke once stated: > > Shure ? I had to go thru the same kind of decision, and I > learned to love the 186 - shure, one needs a little push > to start, but later on it's just great - eventualy the best > _sixteen_ bit CPU around. If you look at the 8080/5, Z80, > 8086 and 80186 family, the 186 is the finest of all. > > Sleak and simple - compared the 68K looks quite bloaded > and clumpsy (ok, it's 32 bit, but still the most compared > competition at it's time). Hardware or software wise? Because I know a lot of programmers (myself included) that consider the 80x86 line to be anything BUT sleek and simple; a collection of exceptions is more like it. -spc (Having programmed both, I enjoy the 68k much more ... ) From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Nov 21 04:14:26 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: 80186 (I love it) In-Reply-To: <200011211000.FAA21135@conman.org> References: <3A1A4E59.948.2D71E9@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Nov 21, 2000 10:28:41 AM Message-ID: <3A1A5912.19114.575462@localhost> > It was thus said that the Great Hans Franke once stated: > > Shure ? I had to go thru the same kind of decision, and I > > learned to love the 186 - shure, one needs a little push > > to start, but later on it's just great - eventualy the best > > _sixteen_ bit CPU around. If you look at the 8080/5, Z80, > > 8086 and 80186 family, the 186 is the finest of all. > > Sleak and simple - compared the 68K looks quite bloaded > > and clumpsy (ok, it's 32 bit, but still the most compared > > competition at it's time). > Hardware or software wise? Because I know a lot of programmers (myself > included) that consider the 80x86 line to be anything BUT sleek and simple; > a collection of exceptions is more like it. Soft and Handware - well, the Hardware is more or less simple (Although the integrrated components where quite handy back then) A simple programming model (shure, not a /370 ISA, but who's perfect), a well tuned instructionset. in my eyes, the 186 (and 286) has been the summit of x86 development. > -spc (Having programmed both, I enjoy the 68k much more ... ) Brr - If I have to do a VAX alike micro, I'll prefer the NS for shure. I did all 3 in Assembly - 186 on PCs (and SBCs), 68k on the Atari ST, and NS32032 on Unix servers. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From black at gco.apana.org.au Tue Nov 21 04:38:12 2000 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Commodore 286LT ? Message-ID: <005901c053a7$27bcc3a0$9b0236cb@lance> Just picked up a Commodore 286LT notebook (1990, so it just makes it!). Has a connector for an internal modem & two internal plugs for ram expansion, can anyone on the list tell me where I might find this items ? (And docs for the machine.....) cheers, Lance Lyon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001121/760296ba/attachment.html From kebabthesheep at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 04:48:36 2000 From: kebabthesheep at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?kebabthesheep?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z Message-ID: <20001121104836.22971.qmail@web1608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > Much of the random logic in the 380Z (address > decoding, video timing > decoder, etc) is done in small bipolar PROMs. These > look a bit like TTL > devices, and may even have 74xxx numbers. > > The blank chips are identical (both are 74S2872, > 256*4 bit PROMs), but > the programming is different. > AH! Controrary to what I was led to believe. I never new there were 74xxx coded proms. I do now :) ) > > > > In what format? Electronic? (i.e. easily > sharable?) > > No, on paper. I don't have a scanner, heck, I only > have a text display on > my PC, so I don't ever use electronic manuals. Quite > apart from the fact > that paper ones are a lot more portable. Shame :( > The official _commented_ source listing would have > been interesting for > the comments. I know these can be recreated, but... > Fair enough. I'll keep my eyes open for it...(sad optimism) > The schematics show that the COS ROMs (on the CPU > board) are 3 rail ones, > needing +5V, +12V and -5V. A lot of modern > programmers can't handle these > (the last 3-rail EPROM that I came across was the 2K > byte TMS2716, which > is _ancient_). > OH! Something else that became obsolete before I started taking things apart...(I'm only 23) That would explain rather a lot. I'll have to build me an eprom dumper then. I'll get one of them 24 bit (8255 based) ISA IO cards from maplin (about 25 quid ISTR) and make one up. I'll probably be needing some data on the chips then - normally I would generate the -5v with a simple switched-capacitor or 'flying capacitor' inverter arrangement - but if it needs more than a couple of millamps, i'm gonna need a -5v psu as well :-/ Hmmm! How about the one in the RML380z! I will get the contents of those roms - even if it kills me... > > > Are you sure this is a standard RML disk > controller? > > > I can't find any LED > > > on the schematics, and I don't remember there > being > > > one when I looked > > > inside my machine. The standard disk controller > is > > > one card that fits > > > onto the 50 way 'bus' ribbon cable, and which > > > contains a 1771 disk > > > controller (Single density only) and a > 8251-based > > > serial port (device SIO-4) > > > > Um, no! I know nowt about this box - I'll check > the > > disk controller very carefully tonight. Its > software > > is certaining interesting - very wacky code, quite > a > > What softwre? and for that matter, you mention a > disk ROM, which I have > never heard of... > > The disk cotnroller schematic I have shows the > following chips (only). > > Location Type > AQ 74LS244 (address buffer) > AR 74LS245 (data buffer) > AP 74LS244 (Control line buffer) > BR 74LS138 (address decoder) > BP 74LS32 > CP 74LS02 > BU 74LS393 (clock divider) > DP 4020 (more clock division) > CQ 74LS32 > ES 74LS74 > DQ Z80A-CTC (baud rate, timing generator) > ER 8251 (serial USART) > CR 74LS00 (?) > DU 74LS123 > AV 1488 (RS232 driver) > BV 1489 (RS232 receiver) > CS WD1771 (disk controller) > BT 74LS157 > AT 7416 (disk output driver) > BU 74LS244 (disk input receiver) > CT 74LS193 > DT 74LS42 > CU 74LS96 > ET 74LS00 > EU 74LS08 > > No RAM, ROM, or CPU. > After checking it out some more it has: dated '83, where most of the box is '79 Z80A CPU, Z80 CTC, 8Kbyte EPROM (HUUUUGE!) MK4802 2Kbx8 SRAM MK3884N which is a mostek sourced Z80SIO-a-like POSH! MB8877a which I believe is a 5voltonly WD1793 i.e. A double density controller. There are obviously other devices - I just didn't note them. Looks like a more advanced double density dual drive controller then :) I wonder if it's double-sided as well??? I'll have to check my WD1793 docs. So! Have I got something a bit different then? Dave. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From LFessen106 at aol.com Tue Nov 21 07:48:57 2000 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Need SGI Classic Cmp Help Message-ID: <1e.d7520bd.274bd749@aol.com> In a message dated 11/21/00 3:12:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, red@bears.org writes: > One more thing, I believe that Linux has loadable filesystem module > support for EFS, which would be the filesystem used by these systems. I > can't say whether this is read/write support or simply read-only, but it > might be worth investigating. I don't make a point of staying abreast on > what's new and improved with Linux. > I am going to try that as soon as I have a spare few minutes. I knew Linux supported EFS but wasn't sure which file system type this old SGI had. As far as I know the Linus EFS support is read only, so I'll have to grab the password file and run John the Ripper on it in hopes of a breakthrough I guess. As far as Linux goes, I have to stay abreast of changes since I am on of the co-founder's of the Lehigh Valley Linux User Group. -Linc Fessenden http://members.aol.com/lfessen106 (Computer Collection) http://thelinuxlink.net/lvlinux (LVLUG) From ncherry at home.net Tue Nov 21 08:07:26 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11 available, Bristol, UK References: Message-ID: <3A1A819E.21434D18@home.net> John Honniball wrote: > > It's time to clear out some space in the garage... > > I have a PDP-11 available to any collector on the list > who'd like to come to Bristol and collect it! According to > the yellowing paper sheet taped to the top, it has: > > M8186 KDF11 LSI 11/23 CPU > M8044DB MSV11 Memory 32K > M8029 RXV21 Floppy Disk > M7952 KWV11A Programmable Real Time Clock > M7954 IBV11A Instrument Bus Interface (IEEE-488 I think) > M7941 DRV11 Parallel Line Unit > M8043 DLV11J Four Async serial interfaces > M8047 MXV11 Memory and Async line interfaces John you make me want to cry, but I also wanted to thank you for posting the offer. I hope some lucky Brit' (sorry I don't know the proper slang) takes you up on your offer (I'm in New Jersey :-). -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 21 08:16:57 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11 available, Bristol, UK In-Reply-To: <3A1A819E.21434D18@home.net> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001121081624.02912df0@pc> At 09:07 AM 11/21/00 -0500, you wrote: >John you make me want to cry, but I also wanted to thank you for posting >the offer. I hope some lucky Brit' (sorry I don't know the proper slang) >takes you up on your offer (I'm in New Jersey :-). Who on this list was talking about starting a trans-Atlantic classic computer sea container stuffing service? - John From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Tue Nov 21 08:30:09 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11 available, Bristol, UK In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001121081624.02912df0@pc> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 08:16:57 -0600 John Foust wrote: > At 09:07 AM 11/21/00 -0500, you wrote: > >John you make me want to cry, but I also wanted to thank you for posting > >the offer. I hope some lucky Brit' (sorry I don't know the proper slang) > >takes you up on your offer (I'm in New Jersey :-). > > Who on this list was talking about starting a trans-Atlantic > classic computer sea container stuffing service? All we have to do is wait for British Airways to get the Concorde fixed, and stuff it full of BBC micros, Whitechapel workstations, Acorn Atoms, Tangerines, Dragon 32s, UK101s and transputers. :-) :-) -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 21 09:06:24 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: IMP.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, shit. Thanks Don. g. On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Don Maslin wrote: > > > On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > Is Irv Hoff still around? I'd heard rumors of cancer some time ago, but > > never heard anything more. > > g. > > Irv died a number of years back, Gene. My guess is 8-10, but I cannot > prove it at the moment. > - don > > > From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Tue Nov 21 09:25:11 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11 available, Bristol, UK Message-ID: <001c01c053cf$446661f0$c834d986@wkchafauradon.beckman.com> Don't forget the oric 1 and atmos, Amstrad cpc and the MSX representatives and other "WOW L@@K Spectrum Era" types of computers. I though Air France was going to fix the Concorde... Then forget it I don't want these computers to end up in a hotel in some big city's suburb. Francois > >All we have to do is wait for British Airways to get the >Concorde fixed, and stuff it full of BBC micros, >Whitechapel workstations, Acorn Atoms, Tangerines, Dragon >32s, UK101s and transputers. > >:-) :-) > >-- >John Honniball >Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk >University of the West of England > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 21 09:27:48 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Heathkit H-89 free to good home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gah. Too bad Boston is so far away. :) g. On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > This guy in the Boston area has a Heathkit H-89 he would like to give > away. Please contact him directly. > > Reply-to: sussman@alum.mit.edu > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:37:58 -0800 > From: Steven Sussman > Subject: VCF Feedback! > > I'm giving away a Heathkit(Zenith) H-89 to whomever will take it off my > hands in the Boston area. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > > > From flo at rdel.co.uk Tue Nov 21 09:25:25 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11 available, Bristol, UK References: Message-ID: <3A1A93E5.CD76ECFB@rdel.co.uk> John Honniball wrote: > > On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 08:16:57 -0600 John Foust > wrote: > > > > Who on this list was talking about starting a trans-Atlantic > > classic computer sea container stuffing service? > > All we have to do is wait for British Airways to get the > Concorde fixed, and stuff it full of BBC micros, > Whitechapel workstations, Acorn Atoms, Tangerines, Dragon > 32s, UK101s and transputers. Oi! We still want the Whitechapels and Atoms, thank you very much. I'm shocked that there's a shortage of BBCs in the states, though. Surely it can't cost that much to ship them? From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Nov 21 09:40:18 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) Message-ID: <20001121154018.4439.qmail@web9507.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Last I checked, 10base2 still has a distance advantage, perhaps enough > > to matter for really large buildings. > > Yes, 185 metres instead of 100m -- and 10base5 will go to 500m. But you > can do better and faster with fibre. I've already got fibre - a pair of StarLAN 10Base-T to 10Base-FL media converters (old and huge, but they work) and a pair of more modern 10Base-FL transceivers. I have a single fibre pair run up the walls from the basement to the computer room on the second floor and my eventual goal is to lay fibre between my farmhouse and my quonset hut. I even have _one_ fiber long-haul modem - it looks like a DB25 - RJ11/RJ45 shell, but has one ST connector on it. Over a single fiber it multiplexes a full duplex 9600 baud signal and a second full duplex 1200 baud signal that can be used for flow control or an additional, low-speed channel. A friend of mine has its mate and if he ever finds it, I'll probably use it to monitor some console port on a PDP-11 in the quonset hut. Maybe I'll build a 20Ma to RS-232 converter and run an ASR-33 over it. :-) But I still want a piece of thicknet on my network, just for the amusement value. The fibre is for "gee whiz" value. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From bill_r at inetnebr.com Tue Nov 21 09:58:49 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: OT: Toshiba XXe Key Phone System Info? In-Reply-To: References: <452k1too9mbs7dfug78t62ep9kq9fgk8sq@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 23:44:53 -0800 (PST), Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Bill Richman wrote: > >> I appreciate the offer, and the information. Much to my surprise, however, >> I found a company on the web who not only sells old manuals, but will let >> you download them in PDF format. The manual I had requested had not been > >The URL would be nice :) > That would be: http://www.automatedinfoinc.com They seem like some nice folks, and I certainly can't complain about the speed of the service or the quality of the documents they supplied me with. Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com Home of Fun with Molten Metal, technological oddities, and the original COSMAC Elf computer simulator! From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Nov 21 10:25:09 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:58:59 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <200011210551.AAA20914@conman.org> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at "Nov 21, 2000 00:51:47 am" Message-ID: <200011211625.IAA18704@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > All non-issues. Small, uses relatively little power, and have you ever > > really seen a hub die? I haven't, and I expect the one I'm using now to > > last forever. > > Not really. Try finding a spare power outlet in my Computer Room. The 4 port in my upstairs room has an adaptor that can draw power from a PC keyboard connector. Fortunately I have enough outlets that I don't need to use it. > And yes, I've seen a hub die. Any one want a dead hub? > > -spc (Running primarily 10Base2---not all the machines here have > 10BaseT connectors) Eric (Has far more machines with RJ45 or AUI than with coax connectors.) From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Nov 21 11:35:40 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: HP 3000 tape/file formats Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001121123540.3def9ba2@mailhost.intellistar.net> Can anyone help this guy? Joe >Return-Path: >Reply-To: >From: "Chris Muller" >To: >Subject: HP 3000 tape/file formats >Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:17:31 -0500 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >Importance: Normal >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 > >Hi, > >Saw your name on the web in connection with HP. I'm looking for information >on the organization of backup tapes created on an HP 3000. (We write PC >programs to read minicomputer tapes, and want to do one for the HP3k). >Thanks for any help you can give us. >Regards, > >Chris Muller >Muller Media Conversions >http://www.mullermedia.com >212-344-0474 > > > >Attachment Converted: "C:\ATTACH\HP3000ta.htm" > From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Nov 21 10:58:28 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip In-Reply-To: <3A1A4E59.948.2D71E9@localhost> from Hans Franke at "Nov 21, 2000 10:28:41 am" Message-ID: <200011211658.IAA19274@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Shure ? I had to go thru the same kind of decision, and I > learned to love the 186 - shure, one needs a little push > to start, but later on it's just great - eventualy the best > _sixteen_ bit CPU around. If you look at the 8080/5, Z80, > 8086 and 80186 family, the 186 is the finest of all. I would probably prefer the V30 which had the 186 instruction set, but the 8086 pinout. > Sleak and simple - compared the 68K looks quite bloaded > and clumpsy (ok, it's 32 bit, but still the most compared > competition at it's time). Do I hear another war starting? According to most sane people, and Motorola, the 68K is a 16 bit processor. Eric From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Nov 21 11:14:39 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Rescue Needed: IBM System 36 in Central PA Message-ID: Please contact original message author (shown below) if you have rescue this one. -jim ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 12:05:18 -0500 From: Nathan Lauver To: jimw@computergarage.org Jim, My company is in posession of an IBM System/36, most of the docs, lots of software, the line printer, two terminals, and an ISA-based emu card for a pc. I can't find anyone to buy it, and it's getting cold. It's in a pavillion-like storage area outside. I talked to the powers that be, and said if I can even just get it out of our way, they'd be happy. Would you be interested in picking it up, or having it shipped? We're located in Central PA. -Nathan From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Nov 21 11:42:15 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip In-Reply-To: <200011211658.IAA19274@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> References: <3A1A4E59.948.2D71E9@localhost> from Hans Franke at "Nov 21, 2000 10:28:41 am" Message-ID: <3A1AC207.25806.6B9A53@localhost> > > Shure ? I had to go thru the same kind of decision, and I > > learned to love the 186 - shure, one needs a little push > > to start, but later on it's just great - eventualy the best > > _sixteen_ bit CPU around. If you look at the 8080/5, Z80, > > 8086 and 80186 family, the 186 is the finest of all. > I would probably prefer the V30 which had the 186 instruction > set, but the 8086 pinout. minor details - just I liked the on chip components a lot. The CS logic can be used under special circumstances almost like a MMU, and the DMA chanels are very handy (and usable unlike the PC style DMA). You may have up to 3 I/O operations running at the same time - two via DMA and one by INS/OUTS. And if your application needs to shovel memory around within a tight time limit, the DMA will do the job faster than the CPU. > > Sleak and simple - compared the 68K looks quite bloaded > > and clumpsy (ok, it's 32 bit, but still the most compared > > competition at it's time). > Do I hear another war starting? According to most sane people, > and Motorola, the 68K is a 16 bit processor. Bait Taken. One has to select his favorate definition, and I selected the largest data size supported by most (all) basic instructions. In case of the 8080 it's 8 Bit (even there are some 16 bit instructions), for the 186 its 16 bits, and for the Motorola it's 32. (It has to be added here that we're only talking about basic instructions on GP CPUs - no FP, no vectorandwahtever data) There are different measurements around, like data path size, register size or _marketing_ size. Now let us look at the 68K family 68000: Data path: 16 Register: 32 ISA: 32 Marketing: 16 So if this is a 16 Bit CPU, what's a 68008 ? 8 Bit ? Still the same CPU core - and further more, is a 68020 now 32 Bit ? Again, wheres the 'new' 32 Bit part? Hard to see a fundamental Difference. Ob, even further, take the NS 16032 vs NS 32032 enhancment - a 16 Bit CPU (with 32 Bit bus) versus a 32 Bit CPU - isn't it ? Rubbish - both are exactly the same chip - just marketing department decided that it's time to hit the new emerging 32 Bit market. Around 1978 when NS and Mot did come up with their 32 Bit design everybody was asking (hypeing?) for 16 bit CPUs (instead of 8 bit ones), so marketing named the stuff the 'sellable' way (Remember, Intel did just around this time a grande flop with their i432 32 bit CPU). Well, this part is marketing, you still may argue that a external data bus is a valid scheme for naming - nice, but then every x86 chip since the original Pentium is a true 64 Bit CPU. Sounds wrong, huh ? But it's true! (according to said scheme) During my practice with several generations of /370ish mainframes I learned that there is basicly no measurement based on physical aperance that cant be twisted. So the ISA is (for meone :) the only measurement with _some_ creditibility. /360&up-ish CPUs where available with ALUs from 8 to 32 bits, internal data pathes from 8 to 256 bits, external data pathers from 8 to 1024 bits (128 bytes per memory cycle), but nobody will doubt that they are all 32 Bit CPUs. Next in line. :) Gruss H. P.S.: And when you think a bit further you'll notice that the physical implementation of an ISA doesn't matter at all - the only relevance is the resulting speed - and here the inpact of some more megabytes of cache can be more important then buswidth, ALU size or whatever. Eventualy a turing machine may wind its tape below your beautiful 64 bit ISA, without any implications for your task. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 21 11:42:14 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <200011210740.eAL7eis49465@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: Sellam Ismail's message of "Mon, 20 Nov 2000 16:22:29 -0800 (PST)" Message-ID: Frank McConnell wrote: >connector) sitting on top of that box, and a new wall wart occluding >two outlets on the power strip. When I was setting up the Computer Room in the new apartment I found myself in need of several more powerstrips, as well as some other stuff. So I took a trip down to Fry's and found the coolist strip. It's got 4 warts plugged into it, with room for a 5th. Plus several others I saw had room for one or two of them without wasting other sockets. Previous to this my solution had been to use some 1' extension cords that I have. They came out of Tektronix, who knows what they used them for, but they've got molded plugs on both ends, very cool. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mark_k at iname.com Tue Nov 21 12:09:34 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: CorelSCSI Message-ID: Hi, The CorelSCSI package allows various SCSI devices, including WORM drives, to be used with PC-compatible (MS-DOS) and Mac computers Does anyone know what the most recent versions of CorelSCSI for the PC and/or Mac are? Any idea where I could get hold of a copy? -- Mark From elecdata at kcinter.net Tue Nov 21 12:21:51 2000 From: elecdata at kcinter.net (bill claussen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Commodore 286LT ? References: <005901c053a7$27bcc3a0$9b0236cb@lance> Message-ID: <3A1ABD3F.ACFA4780@kcinter.net> Hello Lance I'll be putting up my service manuals (original) for the commodore machines in the next week or two, at GoldsAuction.com. If you need a pin out of those connectors let me know, I'd be happy to scan that portion of the manual for you. Bill elecdata1 Lance Lyon wrote: > Just picked up a Commodore 286LT notebook (1990, so it just makes > it!). Has a connector for an internal modem & two internal plugs for > ram expansion, can anyone on the list tell me where I might find this > items ? (And docs for the machine.....) cheers, Lance Lyon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001121/0f71dd09/attachment.html From west at tseinc.com Tue Nov 21 12:16:32 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: HP Questions References: <20001117131623.F4735@loisto.uwasa.fi> <200011180017.eAI0HYP42772@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <007901c053e7$2e468c20$528653d1@fozzie> Answers: > 3. Is the HP 7970 tape drive vacuum column or one of these newer streaming > devices (like the 7974A). the 7970 came in a fair number of varieties... the 7970E drives I've worked with are battleships - they just keep working. > hp20001.jpg is an HP 2114 minicomputer. Yup, I concur > hp20002.jpg is a 21MX mini of some sort. I'm away from my manuals so > can't easily tell which series. This is a 21MX M/E/F series... I can tell it's the short, not tall cassis, thus it's either a 2108 or 2109 and not a 2112 or 2113. Assuming the color of the picture is true, I would say it's a 2109, as the 2108's had a bluish/grey tint rather than a brownish/yellow tint. However, it appears the front panel keyswitch is not just a lock, but has electrical connections (ie. it has a run, standby, Reset position)... those were the M series... so - 2108M would be my guess if the color isn't accurate, otherwise its a 2109 but that isn't the right keyswitch for one of those. Jay West From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Nov 21 12:21:54 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: CorelSCSI In-Reply-To: ; from mark_k@iname.com on Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 06:09:34PM +0000 References: Message-ID: <20001121112154.J1215@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> On Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 06:09:34PM +0000, Mark wrote: > Does anyone know what the most recent versions of CorelSCSI for the PC and/or > Mac are? Any idea where I could get hold of a copy? It used to ship with some SCSI cards; not sure if it still is, or if it was ever sold separately. Search ebay FWIW. I've got an old copy around somewhere I think, but all bets are off on finding it. :-) -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420 From lgwalker at look.ca Tue Nov 21 12:23:05 2000 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: What is it ? Message-ID: <3A1A7739.14981.3EDC09B@localhost> I have a short 8-bit card with a strange mouse socket. It could be a Zenith card as I found it in an old Zenith PC case piled up inside with other cards which obviously didn't belong to the Zenith. It has a DE9 monitor connection with a mono/color switch below it and a port labelled "mouse" below that. It is a DIN with 9 staggered holes but smaller than your standard k-b socket and larger than a PS/2 or Mac one. Internally it has 2 game and one light-pen connectors. It's most significant chip is a 100pin surface mounted 6612. The only removable chip is labelled AM2764ADC, and 838AE9G. Most of the other chips are logoed GS. There is a # written with marker pen S88101035. Did Zenith have a proprietory mouse at some point or is this another beast entirely. I notice that most of the GS low-powered Shotsky chips are labelled some multiple of H eg: H10, H18, H38 etc. which makes me think Zenith/Heath. ciao larry Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From west at tseinc.com Tue Nov 21 12:23:55 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Looking for a couple of HP 7475A plotter parts References: <3A102E41.188CDDF4@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00af01c053e8$37f205a0$528653d1@fozzie> One of the electronic surplus stores here always has a few 7475 plotters... If you want me to snag one or more of them for you, just contact me off-list. Jay West From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Nov 21 12:51:06 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: What is it ? In-Reply-To: <3A1A7739.14981.3EDC09B@localhost> Message-ID: <3A1AD22A.29182.722F7@localhost> > I have a short 8-bit card with a strange mouse socket. It could be > a Zenith card as I found it in an old Zenith PC case piled up inside > with other cards which obviously didn't belong to the Zenith. > It has a DE9 monitor connection with a mono/color switch below it > and a port labelled "mouse" below that. It is a DIN with 9 staggered > holes but smaller than your standard k-b socket and larger than a > PS/2 or Mac one. Internally it has 2 game and one light-pen > connectors. It's most significant chip is a 100pin surface mounted > 6612. The only removable chip is labelled AM2764ADC, and > 838AE9G. Most of the other chips are logoed GS. There is a # > written with marker pen S88101035. Did Zenith have a proprietory > mouse at some point or is this another beast entirely. I notice that > most of the GS low-powered Shotsky chips are labelled some > multiple of H eg: H10, H18, H38 etc. which makes me think > Zenith/Heath. puting a (bus)mouse and a EGA/VGA on one board sounds a lot like ATI - just they clearly marked all boards with their logo :( No idea. Sorry H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 21 11:59:44 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: TCP/IP on eightbitters Message-ID: <1184.360T2200T11395969optimus@canit.se> How many eight-bit micros are there with TCP/IP implementations? I can only think of the C64 and the MSX. For the C64, there are AFAIK two implementations. One is a "normal" C64 program, with some clients for telnet, IRC and FTP, IIRC. The other one is a UNIX look-a-like called Lunix, which will een handle ingoing telnet calls on a slip line. I believe both are available at http://www.heilbronn.netsurf.de/~dallmann/c64.html As for the MSX, the one implementation I know of is UZIX, which is about as close to an eight-bit UNIX you can get. Its homepage is available at http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~adrcunha/uzix I've heard some talk about a TCP/IP project for the Spectrum, as well. Then there is the Ethernet card for the Apple II. Which protocols does it support? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Amiga: (noun) The most technologically advanced computer that hardly anyone cares about. Use in sentence: "I wanted to buy an Amiga for its low price and great color graphics, but everyone else seems to be using IBMs or Macintoshes. So, to remain compatible with the rest of the world, I spent three times as much on a Macintosh and got only half the graphics capability of an Amiga." From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 21 12:16:34 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: CP/M on the TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <3A1A535B.12987.4104B6@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Hans Franke wrote: > > In your case it's more like scary German fanaticism :) > > Ve vill feinaly rule ze klazzik komp szene ! > > Gruss > H. > > (Well, No idea if this sounds right - I guess > John L. should be casted for the voice part :) Sehr schoen! :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Nov 21 13:28:20 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip In-Reply-To: <3A1AC207.25806.6B9A53@localhost> from Hans Franke at "Nov 21, 2000 06:42:15 pm" Message-ID: <200011211928.LAA21837@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > There are different measurements around, like data path size, > register size or _marketing_ size. > > Now let us look at the 68K family > 68000: > Data path: 16 > Register: 32 > ISA: 32 > Marketing: 16 You missed the important one, and the only one that counts when determining the bitness of the processor, the width of the (integer) ALU. Clearly, regardless of the width of the registers and the address bus size, the Z80 is an 8 bit processor, as is the 6502. The 8088 and 8086 are both 16 bitters. The 68000 and 68010 are 16 bitters. The 68020 is a 32 bitter as is the x386. > So if this is a 16 Bit CPU, what's a 68008 ? 8 Bit ? > Still the same CPU core - and further more, is a 68020 > now 32 Bit ? Again, wheres the 'new' 32 Bit part? All obvious answers when you use the ALU size. The 68008 is a 16 bit processor. The 68020 is a 32 bit processor. > Well, this part is marketing, you still may argue that a > external data bus is a valid scheme for naming - nice, but > then every x86 chip since the original Pentium is a true > 64 Bit CPU. Sounds wrong, huh ? But it's true! (according > to said scheme) No, every x86 chip since the original 386 is a 32 bit CPU since the width of the integer ALU is 32 bits. Eric > /360&up-ish CPUs where available with ALUs from 8 to 32 bits, > internal data pathes from 8 to 256 bits, external data pathers > from 8 to 1024 bits (128 bytes per memory cycle), but nobody > will doubt that they are all 32 Bit CPUs. I will. Anything with an 8 bit ALU is an 8 bit processor, regardless of compatibility and wishful thinking. :) Eric From THETechnoid at home.com Tue Nov 21 13:45:12 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: TCP/IP on eightbitters In-Reply-To: <1184.360T2200T11395969optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20001121193648.ZTVC2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> There is a PPP/TCP stack for the Atari 8-bit which allows you to connect to a PPP server over serial/modem, but no servers as yet. You can use it's terminal program to run a browser on a system like NETHER.NET. Nether is a Sunos5.4 system out there that give free shell acces.. Regards, Jeff In <1184.360T2200T11395969optimus@canit.se>, on 11/21/00 at 02:45 PM, "Iggy Drougge" said: >How many eight-bit micros are there with TCP/IP implementations? I can >only think of the C64 and the MSX. >For the C64, there are AFAIK two implementations. One is a "normal" C64 >program, with some clients for telnet, IRC and FTP, IIRC. The other one >is a UNIX look-a-like called Lunix, which will een handle ingoing telnet >calls on a slip line. >I believe both are available at >http://www.heilbronn.netsurf.de/~dallmann/c64.html >As for the MSX, the one implementation I know of is UZIX, which is about >as close to an eight-bit UNIX you can get. Its homepage is available at >http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~adrcunha/uzix >I've heard some talk about a TCP/IP project for the Spectrum, as well. >Then there is the Ethernet card for the Apple II. Which protocols does it >support? >-- >En ligne avec Thor 2.6. >Amiga: (noun) The most technologically advanced computer that hardly >anyone cares about. >Use in sentence: "I wanted to buy an Amiga for its low price and great >color graphics, but everyone else seems to be using IBMs or Macintoshes. >So, to remain compatible with the rest of the world, I spent three times >as much on a Macintosh and got only half the graphics capability of an >Amiga." -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 21 16:10:16 2000 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: memory chips References: Message-ID: <3A1AF2C8.21A3@xs4all.nl> Anybody intrested in approx 300 MCM514258AZ80 memory chips? Available for the cost of postage. Ed From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Nov 21 14:17:47 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: memory chips In-Reply-To: <3A1AF2C8.21A3@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <001101c053f8$1d30b4e0$d79e72d1@cobweb.net> Ed, Yes, I'll gladly take them. Please contact me off-list. Bill -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of wanderer -> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 5:10 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: memory chips -> -> -> Anybody intrested in approx 300 MCM514258AZ80 memory chips? -> Available for the cost of postage. -> -> Ed -> From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 21 14:27:43 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip In-Reply-To: <200011211928.LAA21837@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> (korpela@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu) References: <200011211928.LAA21837@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <20001121202743.21053.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Eric J. Korpela" wrote: > You missed the important one, and the only one that counts > when determining the bitness of the processor, the width of > the (integer) ALU. > > Clearly, regardless of the width of the registers and the > address bus size, the Z80 is an 8 bit processor, as is the > 6502. The 8088 and 8086 are both 16 bitters. The 68000 and > 68010 are 16 bitters. The 68020 is a 32 bitter as is the > x386. Actually, using this metric, the 8080 and Z-80 are 4-bit processors, the IBM 360 Model 30 is an 8-bit processor, the PDP-8/S is a 1-bit processor, and the IBM 1620 is a zero-bit processor (no ALU). It's a stupid and mostly useless metric. Try asking programmers what width processors are instead of hardware engineers. They'll tell you that the 8080 and Z-80 are 8-bitters, and that the 68000 and IBM 360 (most models) are 32-bitters. > No, every x86 chip since the original 386 is a 32 bit CPU since > the width of the integer ALU is 32 bits. Actually there is a 64-bit integer ALU in most recent x86 processors. Describing where it is and what it does is left as an exercise to the reader. The reality is that there is no single "correct" measure of the "bitness" of a processor. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Nov 21 15:05:25 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip In-Reply-To: <200011211928.LAA21837@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> References: <3A1AC207.25806.6B9A53@localhost> from Hans Franke at "Nov 21, 2000 06:42:15 pm" Message-ID: <3A1AF1A5.32501.821C98@localhost> I assume we aggree that the definition shoul be based on an important part of the design - isn't it ? > > There are different measurements around, like data path size, > > register size or _marketing_ size. > > Now let us look at the 68K family > > 68000: > > Data path: 16 > > Register: 32 > > ISA: 32 > > Marketing: 16 > You missed the important one, and the only one that counts > when determining the bitness of the processor, the width of > the (integer) ALU. Well, I'd say you cuted this part of. As described, the size of the ALU is neither important nor (always) visible. > Clearly, regardless of the width of the registers and the > address bus size, the Z80 is an 8 bit processor, as is the > 6502. The 8088 and 8086 are both 16 bitters. The 68000 and > 68010 are 16 bitters. The 68020 is a 32 bitter as is the > x386. :) Before I go onto the 68K, have a look at your 8080 (and AFAIR Z80) timeing - these babies have a 4 bit wide ALU - they need two ALU cycles to add an 8 bit number. Hmm well, There is a 2 cycle penalty when adding 32 Bit instead of a 16 Bit (all following numbers are always taken from my weak memories - please correct me). Just, a move Dx,Dy instruction got no additional cycles, no matter if 8, 16 or 32 Bit. And even more, several bit operations - like TST (?) show no difference when done for B/W/L, indicating that at least some logical instructions are done by a 32 bit ALU - so when guessing about the internal structure (remember, even the existence of an ALU is a hidden information) I might say the 68000/08/10 is a 32 bit CPU since it utilizes a 32 bit ALU Also, when looking at some instruction timeing it seams like the 68000 has at least another 32 bit (or 24 bit) ALU for address calculations. Oh, and speaking of penalty - the 68008 has a handicap of 16 additional cycles for a 32 Bit add - quite more than the 2 cycles for the ALU - so isn't the external data bus size more important to classify a CPU ? > > Well, this part is marketing, you still may argue that a > > external data bus is a valid scheme for naming - nice, but > > then every x86 chip since the original Pentium is a true > > 64 Bit CPU. Sounds wrong, huh ? But it's true! (according > > to said scheme) > No, every x86 chip since the original 386 is a 32 bit CPU since > the width of the integer ALU is 32 bits. So what about the different ALUs ? As shown, even the 68000 has more than one, and on an actual x86 CPU got several sixpacks :) Not to mention the 64 bit ALUs for MMX operations (ok, ok, I said we have to ignore this if we talk about ISA specifications, but if you're talking bit level hardware they have to be in the game :) > > /360&up-ish CPUs where available with ALUs from 8 to 32 bits, > > internal data pathes from 8 to 256 bits, external data pathers > > from 8 to 1024 bits (128 bytes per memory cycle), but nobody > > will doubt that they are all 32 Bit CPUs. > I will. Anything with an 8 bit ALU is an 8 bit processor, regardless > of compatibility and wishful thinking. :) Well, then you're a bit singled out. Try to understand that the ALU as a measurement (and I noted it already in my earlyer post) is as useless as data bus and data path size. This measurement was valid in a time when a CPU had only one ALU at all, and every operation (including address calculation) had to pass In the mainframe area this was only a _very_ short time, and even the micros have catched up since 20 years. As a little brain teaser for the end: imagine an architekture with several ALUs of 16 and 32 bits - incomming instructions are scheduled among the ALUs to enhance performance - nothing unusual you'd say - and what if the scheduler assigns, if all 32 bit ALUs are allocated the next 32 bit operation to one of the 16 bit ALUs which will perform it as two 16 bit operations. How's you classify this processor ? 16 Bit ? 32 Bit ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Nov 21 15:08:09 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: TCP/IP on eightbitters In-Reply-To: <1184.360T2200T11395969optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3A1AF249.4078.849DA5@localhost> > How many eight-bit micros are there with TCP/IP implementations? > I can only think of the C64 and the MSX. > For the C64, there are AFAIK two implementations. One is a "normal" C64 > program, with some clients for telnet, IRC and FTP, IIRC. The other one is a > UNIX look-a-like called Lunix, which will een handle ingoing telnet calls on a > slip line. > I believe both are available at > http://www.heilbronn.netsurf.de/~dallmann/c64.html > As for the MSX, the one implementation I know of is UZIX, which is about as > close to an eight-bit UNIX you can get. Its homepage is available at > http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~adrcunha/uzix > I've heard some talk about a TCP/IP project for the Spectrum, as well. > Then there is the Ethernet card for the Apple II. Which protocols does it > support? Well, Zilog is _heavyly_ marketing Z80ish CPUs for network applications - check the eZ80 (no joke) pages. You'll get not only a stack, but also most basic application like (simple) web servers ready from the shelf. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Nov 21 15:08:43 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: TCP/IP on eightbitters In-Reply-To: <1184.360T2200T11395969optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Nov 21, 2000 06:59:44 PM Message-ID: <200011212108.OAA32220@calico.litterbox.com> > I've heard some talk about a TCP/IP project for the Spectrum, as well. > Then there is the Ethernet card for the Apple II. Which protocols does it > support? Ah the infamous apple 2 ethernet board. The thing was designed, ethertalk support was written into the Apple2GS kernel, and then the board was dropped before production and all references to it torn out of GSOS. The apple2GS world *still* whines about this, even though they have a tcpip stack of dubious quality that can supposedly do PPP (although I've never seen it actually work). The guy who developed it is a real jerk too, and has gained a following of other jerks. Between this and the fact that my father gave up on his GS and bought an iMac, you have the reasons I gave up on the apple2 community. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Nov 21 15:12:28 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: memory chips In-Reply-To: <3A1AF2C8.21A3@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3A1AF34C.28602.888EEC@localhost> > Anybody intrested in approx 300 MCM514258AZ80 memory chips? Motorola 1 Megabit 256kx4 fast page mode DRAM ? Taken ! Gruss H. P.S: Does anybody remember what the AZ was about ? -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 21 13:14:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Nov 20, 0 04:22:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3668 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001121/3b808b25/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 21 13:06:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001119221817.00b912e0@binhost.com> from "Tarsi" at Nov 19, 0 10:18:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 798 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001121/7830e316/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 21 13:17:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Nov 20, 0 04:30:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1385 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001121/c6540b79/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 21 13:32:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <200011210151.RAA04662@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at Nov 20, 0 05:51:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2917 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001121/4d6ae2bd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 21 13:36:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <200011210740.eAL7eis49465@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Nov 20, 0 11:40:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 913 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001121/0fbcd2ee/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 21 13:47:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: <20001121104836.22971.qmail@web1608.mail.yahoo.com> from "=?iso-8859-1?q?kebabthesheep?=" at Nov 21, 0 02:48:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3989 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001121/3d3f3a77/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 21 13:49:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: PDP-11 available, Bristol, UK In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at Nov 21, 0 02:30:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 358 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001121/141483a4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 21 13:52:07 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <200011211625.IAA18704@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at Nov 21, 0 08:25:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 546 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001121/d5e96adf/attachment.ksh From truthanl at oclc.org Tue Nov 21 15:41:05 2000 From: truthanl at oclc.org (Truthan,Larry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Infamous Toshiba PS Message-ID: <5D2A5FE013C66B44901B5A45A5304DDA3EFF32@oa2-server.oa.oclc.org> To Bill Layer, Have you searched: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_Repair.html http://fribble.cie.rpi.edu/~repairfaq/REPAIR/F_smpsfaq.html The later is on section taken from the Small Switch mode PS Faq. I found this with Deja search on discussion groups. Larry Truthan From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Nov 21 15:42:39 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: memory chips In-Reply-To: <3A1AF34C.28602.888EEC@localhost> Message-ID: <000001c05403$f8579ba0$e19e72d1@cobweb.net> -> > Anybody intrested in approx 300 MCM514258AZ80 memory chips? -> -> Motorola 1 Megabit 256kx4 fast page mode DRAM ? -> -> Taken ! -> -> Gruss -> H. -> -> P.S: Does anybody remember what the AZ was about ? A = ?; first, initial design? Z = Zig-Zag in line package 80 = 80ns access From dogas at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 21 15:40:59 2000 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: First trading list Message-ID: <003501c05403$be7eccf0$21794ed8@DOMAIN> Hi gang, I have some systems that I'd like to trade with. I'm, as always, looking for a little strange [cpu]. If ya see anything you like and wanna propose a trade, LMK! :) Here they are: 1. Kaypro 10 in the blue Kaypro carrying case 2. Apple II+, 2 Monitor 3. Boxed Timex 1000, Manual, 16k piggyback Module 4. Atari 800, Boxed 1050 floppy, (original style) 410 recorder 5. TRS-80 Model 4 6. Apple Mac 128, keyboard, case 7. IBM PC Portable, (buncha dos 1.0 stuff) 8. Atari 800, ps 9. Intellivision II boxed 10. Apple II+, 2 Disk IIs, Numeric Keypad, Kensington Saver, Monitor 3 11. Intellivision, buncha games 12. Epson HX-20, hard-shell plastic case 13. Commodore 128D, 1702, 1350 mouse, Geos 2.0 14. Big Matle Aquarius collection (2 computers, one boxed, 2 boxed printers, boxed program recorder, boxed 16k pac, 3 joypads,2 mini-expanders, smf 5 game carts (two boxed)) Cheers - Mike From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Nov 21 15:53:04 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <10011210039.ZM4824@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>; from pete@dunnington.u-net.com on Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 12:39:28AM +0000 References: <10011210039.ZM4824@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20001121145304.L1215@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> On Tue, Nov 21, 2000 at 12:39:28AM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > an RJ45. And I bet I can strip and crimp an RJ45 as fast as most people > can crimp a BNC. Yep I'd agree with that. > > The other reason, of course, is that there are lots more LEDs to flash if > you use a hub :-) That's a really good reason. :-) Speaking of which... anybody else exasperated with how hard it is to find rackmount hubs which are built like computers: blinky lights on the front, connectors on the back? I want to see the lights, not hide them in the back with all the cabling, or have unsightly cabling in the front of the rack. -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Nov 21 15:56:16 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: memory chips In-Reply-To: <000001c05403$f8579ba0$e19e72d1@cobweb.net> References: <3A1AF34C.28602.888EEC@localhost> Message-ID: <3A1AFD90.18771.B0A87C@localhost> > -> > Anybody intrested in approx 300 MCM514258AZ80 memory chips? > -> Motorola 1 Megabit 256kx4 fast page mode DRAM ? > -> P.S: Does anybody remember what the AZ was about ? > A = ?; first, initial design? > Z = Zig-Zag in line package Hmm. You're shure ? > 80 = 80ns access That's the simple part. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Nov 21 15:57:36 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <200011210740.eAL7eis49465@daemonweed.reanimators.org>; from fmc@reanimators.org on Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 11:40:44PM -0800 References: <200011210740.eAL7eis49465@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <20001121145735.M1215@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> On Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 11:40:44PM -0800, Frank McConnell wrote: > And it invariably wants that relatively little power to be delivered > via a fat wall wart that occludes two outlets on the nearby power strip. Thus the need for a 12V power bus, and hubs that run on 12V. If you are also a ham, then you have plenty of other uses for a big 12V power supply anyway. Now if only 12V PC power supplies were more readily available, I'd switch over to them, just so backup power would be easier (pair of golf cart batteries and a charger). -- _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD ecloud@bigfoot.com (_ | |_) http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud kb7pwd@kb7pwd.ampr.org __) | | \________________________________________________________________ Free long distance at http://www.bigredwire.com/me/RefTrack?id=USA063420 From ip500 at home.com Tue Nov 21 16:04:47 2000 From: ip500 at home.com (ip500) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Apple /// on eBay nice & working Message-ID: <3A1AF17F.6066404E@home.com> Shameless commercial plug alert! Actually wasn't someone looking for valuation info for a /// recently? http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=504253462 From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 21 13:30:57 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <200011202144.NAA17212@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <985.360T2850T12306847optimus@canit.se> healyzh skrev: >Currently my only uses for 10Base2 is my one DECserver 90L+, PowerBook 540c >(which when I find a cheap 10BaseT transciever for will be switched) and my >Amiga 3000 (currently in storage, but hope to move to my new Apartment one of >these days). Until I moved recently the PDP-11/73 had also been on 10Base2. Which network card? A2065? EB920 LANrover? >Do I have a point? I guess my point is I'm trying to get off 10Base2, why >would I want 10Base5 :^) I'd much rather have another 10/100 Switch than >any 10Base5 stuff! I'd like some, myself. I've got a 10Base2 segment plugged into my 10BaseT repeater, but I'd like to have some more networks in order to learn about routing and just for the sake of completeness. Of course, 10Base5 won't really require any work once plugged in, but I'd also like some Tokenring and Arcnet, for sake of completeness. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Die Malerei ist stumme Poesie, die Poesie blinde Malerei. --- Leonardo da Vinci From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 21 13:35:30 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <20001120150511.B1215@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com> Message-ID: <1298.360T1500T12354701optimus@canit.se> Shawn T. Rutledge skrev: >On Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 01:44:17PM -0800, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: >> Do I have a point? I guess my point is I'm trying to get off 10Base2, why >> would I want 10Base5 :^) I'd much rather have another 10/100 Switch than >> any 10Base5 stuff! >Last I checked, 10base2 still has a distance advantage, perhaps enough >to matter for really large buildings. I think it has some layout advantages, too. My institution at the university still uses thinnet, and after some thought, I can see why. After all, 10Base2 requires no additional hardware, and just one cable to be run into each room. Each room has got its own 10Base2 segment which goes to a central repeater (plugged into a thicknet backbone bridging the gap to the main complex). Thus, only a central hub is requires, and just one cable for each room, without there being too many workstations on one segment for it to make the network vulnerable. 10BaseT may be neater, but also more technically involved. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. S? ja. Forts?tt bara som du g?r s? kommer du i s?kerhet, och raka dig n?r du kommer hem s? ser du kanske inte ut som en apa. Du kan ju leva ett ombonat liv, t?lja tr?gubbar eller n?t s?nt. Lupin III till Jigen, Lupin den otrolige (Lupin III vs. fukusei ningen), TMS 1978 From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 21 16:02:08 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip In-Reply-To: <200011211658.IAA19274@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <504.360T400T13824521optimus@canit.se> Eric J. Korpela skrev: >Do I hear another war starting? According to most sane people, >and Motorola, the 68K is a 16 bit processor. I'd say that, too, but following that line of thinking, wouldn't the 68EC020 be a 24-bitter? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Ed ecco un altro esempio in cui le sigle italiane e francesi sono uguali ... non avrei mai creduto di poter un giorno dire una cosa del genere, ma secondo me Crostina D'Avena canta meglio. Tacchan s?gar den franska signaturen till Creamy Mami From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 21 15:24:03 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: First trading list In-Reply-To: <003501c05403$be7eccf0$21794ed8@DOMAIN> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Mike wrote: > I have some systems that I'd like to trade with. I'm, as always, looking > for a little strange [cpu]. If ya see anything you like and wanna propose a > trade, LMK! :) > > Here they are: > > 1. Kaypro 10 in the blue Kaypro carrying case > 2. Apple II+, 2 Monitor > 3. Boxed Timex 1000, Manual, 16k piggyback Module > 4. Atari 800, Boxed 1050 floppy, (original style) 410 recorder > 5. TRS-80 Model 4 > 6. Apple Mac 128, keyboard, case > 7. IBM PC Portable, (buncha dos 1.0 stuff) > 8. Atari 800, ps > 9. Intellivision II boxed > 10. Apple II+, 2 Disk IIs, Numeric Keypad, Kensington Saver, Monitor 3 > 11. Intellivision, buncha games > 12. Epson HX-20, hard-shell plastic case > 13. Commodore 128D, 1702, 1350 mouse, Geos 2.0 > 14. Big Matle Aquarius collection (2 computers, one boxed, 2 boxed > printers, boxed program recorder, boxed 16k pac, 3 joypads,2 mini-expanders, > smf 5 game carts (two boxed)) I just thought I'd point out that the problem of trying to trade very common stuff for very obscure stuff is that people are more likely to want to trade their very common stuff for your very obscure stuff, so a trade like this rarely works out. You can't go to a bank and ask for $20 in change for a ten dollar bill :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From vcf at siconic.com Tue Nov 21 15:53:42 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Looking for Combat for TRS-80 Message-ID: Does anyone have or know where I can get a copy of the game "Combat" for the TRS-80? It was a multi-player game that allowed you to connect up two TRS-80s and play against another person in realtime. If so, please contact me directly . Thanks! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue Nov 21 16:59:35 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Enigma machine Message-ID: <3A1AFE57.759F28AE@arrl.net> For those who followed this interesting thread earlier this year here is a link http://www.sunday-times.co.uk:80/news/pages/sti/2000/11/19/stinwenws02039.html to a series of articles recounting its recent recovery. nick o From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Nov 21 17:01:32 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: First trading list In-Reply-To: References: <003501c05403$be7eccf0$21794ed8@DOMAIN> Message-ID: <3A1B0CDC.12258.EC695C@localhost> > > 1. Kaypro 10 in the blue Kaypro carrying case > > 2. Apple II+, 2 Monitor > > 3. Boxed Timex 1000, Manual, 16k piggyback Module > > 4. Atari 800, Boxed 1050 floppy, (original style) 410 recorder > > 5. TRS-80 Model 4 > > 6. Apple Mac 128, keyboard, case > > 7. IBM PC Portable, (buncha dos 1.0 stuff) > > 8. Atari 800, ps > > 9. Intellivision II boxed > > 10. Apple II+, 2 Disk IIs, Numeric Keypad, Kensington Saver, Monitor 3 > > 11. Intellivision, buncha games > > 12. Epson HX-20, hard-shell plastic case > > 13. Commodore 128D, 1702, 1350 mouse, Geos 2.0 > > 14. Big Matle Aquarius collection (2 computers, one boxed, 2 boxed > > printers, boxed program recorder, boxed 16k pac, 3 joypads,2 mini-expanders, > > smf 5 game carts (two boxed)) > I just thought I'd point out that the problem of trying to trade very > common stuff for very obscure stuff is that people are more likely to > want to trade their very common stuff for your very obscure stuff, so a > trade like this rarely works out. > You can't go to a bank and ask for $20 in change for a ten dollar bill :) Well yes, but if you're into coins, you may give a 10 Dollar bill for a 5 Mark coin :) And at least the Timex and Aquarius are not exactly common over here (Didn't David look for a BBC .... quite common in GB :). Servus Hans -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 21 16:17:50 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: memory chips In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: memory chips" (Nov 21, 22:12) References: <3A1AF34C.28602.888EEC@localhost> Message-ID: <10011212217.ZM961@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 21, 22:12, Hans Franke wrote: > > Anybody intrested in approx 300 MCM514258AZ80 memory chips? > > Motorola 1 Megabit 256kx4 fast page mode DRAM ? Not quite; they're static-column, not FPM. I was going to reply that two of these would make a buffer for my Z80 EPROM programmer project, but I wasn't planning to build 150 of them! Anyway, I see others have beaten me to it :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Nov 21 17:08:37 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: memory chips In-Reply-To: <10011212217.ZM961@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: "Hans Franke" "Re: memory chips" (Nov 21, 22:12) Message-ID: <3A1B0E85.23689.F2E4B9@localhost> > On Nov 21, 22:12, Hans Franke wrote: > > > Anybody intrested in approx 300 MCM514258AZ80 memory chips? > > Motorola 1 Megabit 256kx4 fast page mode DRAM ? > Not quite; they're static-column, not FPM. Shure we're talking about the same ? The to my memory the Motorola where FPM, while the Siemens HB514256 have been 'ordinary'. > I was going to reply that two of these would make a buffer for my Z80 EPROM > programmer project, but I wasn't planning to build 150 of them! :)) Maybe the 'winner' should split it up. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From black at gco.apana.org.au Tue Nov 21 17:10:43 2000 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:00 2005 Subject: Commodore 286LT ? References: <005901c053a7$27bcc3a0$9b0236cb@lance> <3A1ABD3F.ACFA4780@kcinter.net> Message-ID: <008e01c05410$772cab80$310236cb@lance> Hi Bill, You wouldn't be interested in selling the manual for the 286LT (if you've got one) would you, prior to auction ? cheers, Lance ----- Original Message ----- From: bill claussen To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 5:21 AM Subject: Re: Commodore 286LT ? Hello Lance I'll be putting up my service manuals (original) for the commodore machines in the next week or two, at GoldsAuction.com. If you need a pin out of those connectors let me know, I'd be happy to scan that portion of the manual for you. Bill elecdata1 Lance Lyon wrote: Just picked up a Commodore 286LT notebook (1990, so it just makes it!). Has a connector for an internal modem & two internal plugs for ram expansion, can anyone on the list tell me where I might find this items ? (And docs for the machine.....) cheers, Lance Lyon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001122/a3b8c1b0/attachment.html From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Nov 21 17:14:55 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: memory chips In-Reply-To: <3A1B0E85.23689.F2E4B9@localhost> References: <10011212217.ZM961@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3A1B0FFF.19188.F8AB5C@localhost> > > > > Anybody intrested in approx 300 MCM514258AZ80 memory chips? ^ Please ignore my postings - I'm an idiot, not able to read numbers. I was thinking all the time about 51425_6_ but its been about 51425_8_. I'm sorry. Gruss H. P.S.: Thanks to Bill Dawoson who even got the original manual(pdf) -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 21 17:35:36 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: Looking for Combat for TRS-80 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Have you tried looking on Ira Goldklang's TRS-80 site? It's at http://www.trs-80.com . A _huge_ archive of TRS-80 software. g. On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Does anyone have or know where I can get a copy of the game "Combat" for > the TRS-80? It was a multi-player game that allowed you to connect up two > TRS-80s and play against another person in realtime. > > If so, please contact me directly . > > Thanks! > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From aclark at envirolink.org Tue Nov 21 18:16:29 2000 From: aclark at envirolink.org (Arthur Clark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: Apple /// on eBay nice & working In-Reply-To: <3A1AF17F.6066404E@home.com> Message-ID: <5.0.1.4.0.20001121191325.031e7ec0@manatee.envirolink.org> Forget it. I just bid $90.00 which is primo maximum value for a /// that is not even guaranteed to work. Some insane wacko had already bid higher than that, so I was instantly outbid. This is precisely why I gave up on Ebay a year ago. Unless you are rich, don't waste your time on Ebay. Arthur Clark At 05:04 PM 11/21/2000 -0500, you wrote: > Shameless commercial plug alert! >Actually wasn't someone looking for valuation info for a /// recently? >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=504253462 From vaxman at uswest.net Tue Nov 21 18:24:37 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: Geekus Deeks In-Reply-To: <200011210301.WAA02494@world.std.com> Message-ID: I have not decided if I will renew or not. DECUS has provided only a single function for me (free VMS licenses), and it is unclear to me if they will continue to support (and perhaps even encourage) legacy VAX and MIPS systems. It is my understanding the first vote to re-incorporate was rejected by the membership, but the board did it anyway. I suspect they formed the new organization, then (as the DECUS board) transferred everything to the Encompass. VAXUS anyone? clint On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Megan wrote: > > > Has anyone on the list got any response from DECus lately > > (2~3 months)? I tried signing up about 4 weeks ago and got > > no response. I would like to do whatever's necessary to join. > > I'm totally disgusted with DECUS/Encompass... I think someone pulled > a fast one on the membership. I understand there were two votes > recently. I got my ballot for the first one... I didn't get a second, > so I sent email to the location specified on the encompass web page. > > I never received the second ballot, and after the deadline had > occurred, I got mail back indicating it (my email) had gone to > the wrong place (I would have expected the mailto: link would > have been set correctly). > > Anyway, at this point I don't care... DECUS is gone. I don't know of > anything to bring it back. I won't be renewing with encompass, it doesn't > meet my needs at all. > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | > | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | > | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | > | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > From vaxman at uswest.net Tue Nov 21 18:27:40 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I plan to hang all the DEC machines off DELNIs (real ones :), with a 10baseT/AUI adapter to a 10/100 switch (not hub). That way my PCs can talk to each other and the outside world at 100MBs, and the VAXes don't have to listen to them. Why should me VAXes be interrupted by the constant chatter of WIN98? clint PS Actually, I only have a single win 98 machine to run the scanner. The remaining PCs run FreeBSD! On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Do I have a point? I guess my point is I'm trying to get off 10Base2, why > > > > Hmmm... I'm moving towards 10Base2 and away from 10BaseT > > Ah, I've never used anything but 10Base2 at home for stringing wires > throughout the house. :-) ...with the exception of a few close > machines connected to AUI cables and a DELNI-like hub. If I move to > anything else, it will probably be the yellow cable with vampire taps. > > > For older (classic) computers, the bus bandwidth won't support 100Mbps > > ethernet, so you have to go with one of the 10Mbps standards (I'll ignore > > the original 3Mbps.. :-)). > > ...not even for a couple of machines on a subnet just for fun? :-) > > -- > Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of > All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to > rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD > > > > > > From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 21 19:00:01 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: Looking for Combat for TRS-80 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Gene Buckle wrote: > Have you tried looking on Ira Goldklang's TRS-80 site? It's at > http://www.trs-80.com . A _huge_ archive of TRS-80 software. Yes, and I found it there, but I'd like to have the original. In the meantime, does anyone know of any software that will allow me to write the image I downloaded off Ira's site back to a floppy (or cassette) so I can load it into an honest to gawd TRS-80 rather than an emulator? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ss at allegro.com Tue Nov 21 20:04:59 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: HP 3000 tape/file formats In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001121123540.3def9ba2@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3A1AB94B.15605.198F86EC@localhost> Re: > Can anyone help this guy? We probably can (Allegro Consultants, Inc). I wrote the old STORE program for the HP 3000, and am very familiar with the current one. I'll email them. thanks, Stan > Joe > > >Return-Path: > >Reply-To: > >From: "Chris Muller" > >To: > >Subject: HP 3000 tape/file formats > >Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:17:31 -0500 > >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > >Importance: Normal > >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 > > > >Hi, > > > >Saw your name on the web in connection with HP. I'm looking for information > >on the organization of backup tapes created on an HP 3000. (We write PC > >programs to read minicomputer tapes, and want to do one for the HP3k). > >Thanks for any help you can give us. > >Regards, > > > >Chris Muller > >Muller Media Conversions > >http://www.mullermedia.com > >212-344-0474 > > > > > > > >Attachment Converted: "C:\ATTACH\HP3000ta.htm" > > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Nov 21 20:40:52 2000 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: Looking for Combat for TRS-80 References: Message-ID: <3A1B3234.F212264B@pacbell.net> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > Have you tried looking on Ira Goldklang's TRS-80 site? It's at > > http://www.trs-80.com . A _huge_ archive of TRS-80 software. > > Yes, and I found it there, but I'd like to have the original. In the > meantime, does anyone know of any software that will allow me to write the > image I downloaded off Ira's site back to a floppy (or cassette) so I can > load it into an honest to gawd TRS-80 rather than an emulator? David Keil's emulator is capable of reading and writing 5.25" disks. It is rather slick; you don't even have to use a utility to first transfer the file from real disk to virtual or vice versa. You just put it in your drive and use it like a real TRS-80. I've used it and it worked well for me. After scoring a large load of TRS-80 disks, I copied what I could and sent it all to Ira. Some of the other emulators have direct support, or they use Jeff Vasavour's utilities to transfer between real disks and virtual disks. All of them are available from http://www.trs-80.com. From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 21 21:01:10 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: TCP/IP on eightbitters In-Reply-To: <200011212108.OAA32220@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <1210.361T500T2414373optimus@canit.se> Jim Strickland skrev: >> I've heard some talk about a TCP/IP project for the Spectrum, as well. >> Then there is the Ethernet card for the Apple II. Which protocols does it >> support? >Ah the infamous apple 2 ethernet board. >The thing was designed, ethertalk support was written into the Apple2GS >kernel, and then the board was dropped before production and all references >to it torn out of GSOS. The apple2GS world *still* whines about this, even >though they have a tcpip stack of dubious quality that can supposedly do PPP >(although I've never seen it actually work). The guy who developed it is a >real jerk too, and has gained a following of other jerks. Between this and >the fact that my father gave up on his GS and bought an iMac, you have the >reasons I gave up on the apple2 community. Are you referring to the board which was (supposedly) produced just w hile ago, or is this some age-old project? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Eccovi una delle sigle francesi dedicate a questo shojo... come, non e' uno shojo? Andate a spiegarlo ai francesi... questa e' una canzone da shojo, quindi per me Goldrake e' uno shojo :p Tacchan om den franska signaturmelodin till Goldorak (Grendizer) From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 21 21:00:07 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: TCP/IP on eightbitters In-Reply-To: <20001121193648.ZTVC2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <493.361T350T2404427optimus@canit.se> THETechnoid skrev: >There is a PPP/TCP stack for the Atari 8-bit which allows you to connect >to a PPP server over serial/modem, but no servers as yet. You can use it's >terminal program to run a browser on a system like NETHER.NET. Nether is a >Sunos5.4 system out there that give free shell acces.. IOW, it runs a telnet client? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet sua.ath.cx, port 42512. From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Nov 21 21:29:50 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20001121222950.01515484@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 05:27 PM 11/21/00 -0700, you wrote: > >I plan to hang all the DEC machines off DELNIs (real ones :), with a >10baseT/AUI adapter to a 10/100 switch (not hub). That way my PCs can >talk to each other and the outside world at 100MBs, and the VAXes >don't have to listen to them. Why should me VAXes be interrupted by >the constant chatter of WIN98? > >clint This reminds me of a quirk in the EE department's network; some NT boxes here rely on some flavor of NIS for authentication, but they have to be ping'ed every few seconds at a specific port or the NT yp client dies. To avoid that, one of the servers sends a bogus yp packet to _every_ IP address on the network every now and then. Unix machines don't like it; portmap logs in a couple flavors unix have to be disabled in order not to generate an entry every few seconds. In others, /etc/syslog.conf can be modified to avoid this. Fortunately, we're behind a firewall. But having to acommodate idiotic NT needs sure sucks. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Nov 21 21:44:22 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: TCP/IP on eightbitters In-Reply-To: <1210.361T500T2414373optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Nov 22, 2000 04:01:10 AM Message-ID: <200011220344.UAA00863@calico.litterbox.com> > >Ah the infamous apple 2 ethernet board. > > >The thing was designed, ethertalk support was written into the Apple2GS > >kernel, and then the board was dropped before production and all references > >to it torn out of GSOS. The apple2GS world *still* whines about this, even > >though they have a tcpip stack of dubious quality that can supposedly do PPP > >(although I've never seen it actually work). The guy who developed it is a > >real jerk too, and has gained a following of other jerks. Between this and > >the fact that my father gave up on his GS and bought an iMac, you have the > >reasons I gave up on the apple2 community. > > Are you referring to the board which was (supposedly) produced just w hile > ago, or is this some age-old project? I was refering to a product Apple designed but never released when I was talking about the ethernet board. The TCP-IP stack came from a third party about 2 years ago and is called Marinetti. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 21 21:48:12 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: Looking for Combat for TRS-80 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Have you tried looking on Ira Goldklang's TRS-80 site? It's at > > http://www.trs-80.com . A _huge_ archive of TRS-80 software. > > Yes, and I found it there, but I'd like to have the original. In the > meantime, does anyone know of any software that will allow me to write the > image I downloaded off Ira's site back to a floppy (or cassette) so I can > load it into an honest to gawd TRS-80 rather than an emulator? > I think that one of the emulator authors has written a tool to write the DMK images to floppy disk. g. From lgwalker at look.ca Wed Nov 22 01:14:17 2000 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: What is it ? In-Reply-To: <3A1AD22A.29182.722F7@localhost> References: <3A1A7739.14981.3EDC09B@localhost> Message-ID: <3A1B2BF9.31770.1FCA826@localhost> > > I have a short 8-bit card with a strange mouse socket. It could be > > a Zenith card as I found it in an old Zenith PC case piled up inside > > with other cards which obviously didn't belong to the Zenith. > > It has a DE9 monitor connection with a mono/color switch below it > > and a port labelled "mouse" below that. It is a DIN with 9 staggered > > holes but smaller than your standard k-b socket and larger than a > > PS/2 or Mac one. Internally it has 2 game and one light-pen > > connectors. It's most significant chip is a 100pin surface mounted > > 6612. The only removable chip is labelled AM2764ADC, and 838AE9G. > > Most of the other chips are logoed GS. There is a # written with > > marker pen S88101035. Did Zenith have a proprietory mouse at some > > point or is this another beast entirely. I notice that most of the > > GS low-powered Shotsky chips are labelled some multiple of H eg: > > H10, H18, H38 etc. which makes me think Zenith/Heath. > > puting a (bus)mouse and a EGA/VGA on one board sounds a > lot like ATI - just they clearly marked all boards with > their logo :( > > No idea. > > Sorry > H. > Yeah usually ATI clearly identifies itself. The thing about this board that intrigues me is the mouse socket. It's like a slightly larger Mac or PS/2 socket. Are there many other unusual mouse plugs. For example I've never seen a Sun mouse but imagine it's similiar to Mac or Next plugs. Possibly I'm knowledge-deficient when it comes meeses :^} Curses on proprietory mfg. ciao larry Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Nov 22 03:01:42 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: Carlos Murillo "Re: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's)" (Nov 21, 22:29) References: <3.0.2.32.20001121222950.01515484@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <10011220901.ZM1286@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 21, 22:29, Carlos Murillo wrote: > This reminds me of a quirk in the EE department's network; some NT boxes > here rely on some flavor of NIS for authentication, but they have to > be ping'ed every few seconds at a specific port or the NT yp client > dies. To avoid that, one of the servers sends a bogus yp packet to > _every_ IP address on the network every now and then. Unix machines > don't like it; portmap logs in a couple flavors unix have to be disabled > in order not to generate an entry every few seconds. In others, > /etc/syslog.conf can be modified to avoid this. Fortunately, we're behind > a firewall. But having to acommodate idiotic NT needs sure sucks. Agreed. This is geting a bit off-topic[1] but that's the sort of thing VLANs are for. You could use an intelligent switch (or hub) and put all the NT systems in a separate VLAN from the Unix boxes. Some systems (eg Enterasys/Cabletron) can do that for you automatically by seeing what does/does not generate certain protocol packets. A VLAN is a single broadcast domain, so the broadcast to the NT machines will be restricted to the NT machines, never reaching the Unix boxes, regardless of subnet numbers and network topology[2]. We've been using VLANs for similar purposes since 1995, though in our case it's mostly to restrict Appletalk and IPX to a range of ports (spread around several dozen switches and hubs) and to separate staff, student and management subnets. Recently I've also put the DHCP servers into a separate VLAN, and restricted the connections, so no-one can run a rogue DHCP server. [1] VLANs are too recent (mid 1990s) to properly be the province of classiccmp. [2] Of course, you could also do this by assigning all the NT boxes to a separate subnet if you have a spare number range. The advantage of VLANs is that they can overlap; machines can be members of more than one for different purposes. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From kebabthesheep at yahoo.com Wed Nov 22 04:28:17 2000 From: kebabthesheep at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?kebabthesheep?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z Message-ID: <20001122102817.29140.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > Incidentally, you don't need to send me a private > copy of e-mail that you > post to the list. I read classiccmp :-) Apologies - a habit left over from another mailing list, where it is customary. > > OH! Something else that became obsolete before I > > started taking things apart...(I'm only 23) > > Wait until you come across 1702 EPROMs. They run > from a 14V supply, > conventionally called +5V and -9V (there is _no_ > ground pin on the chip). > Inputs and outputs are TTL-compatible wrt a 'ground' > 5V below the +ve > rail (so if you use +5V and -9V, the address and > data lines link up to > normal TTL). > > Programming 1702s is even more 'fun' and involves > taking several pins up > to quite high voltages... Mmmmm! Lovely stuff! I wonder if me old mucker from secondary school/uni still has that box of really old smelly eproms - i'll give him a call and find out... > > That would explain rather a lot. I'll have to > build > > me an eprom dumper then. > > I'll get one of them 24 bit (8255 based) ISA IO > cards > > from maplin (about 25 quid ISTR) and make one up. > > Seems reasonable. > Damn damn and triple damn! I just got the latest MAPLIN cataloge last night - they don't do the 8255 card anymore, they do a carp replacement - using TTL - costing, wait for it, 100gbp! They can *get lost* i'll build my own darned pc card - I wonder if farnell still do 'blank' ISA prototyping cards? I need to get on and build up my PCB making equipment again - so I can build myself, and other serious computer geeks, special cards :) How about a dual 8255 based card? 48 bit programmable digital IO anybody? Single density floppy controller? Oh! The list could be endless! > Since the COS ROMs are readable by the 380Z's > processor (unlike the > address decoder, say), you could presumably read the > ROMs by a little > program on the 380Z and squirt the data out of the > serial port. I could if I had any data on it :( > > > > > Are you sure this is a standard RML disk > > > controller? > > MB8877a which I believe is a 5voltonly WD1793 > > > > i.e. A double density controller. There are > obviously > > Yes... This sounds like a double-density card > alright. And it's a card > I've never seen and have no schematics or data on > :-(. > > Which means it may well need a non-standard system > disk as well, > something that none of us seem to have :-( :-(... > Damn! Foiled! Looks like i'm going to have to go with Dwight's (sp?) suggestion and write my own bios. That should get me back up to speed with the old Z80 again...i'll try any system disk anybody sends me anyway - I can alway find the correct controller card for them. I think it was Monsier Honniball who had some RML380Z bits... Dave. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Wed Nov 22 06:22:58 2000 From: kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: Two Convergent Technology UNIX server free for UK collection Message-ID: I have a pair of Convergent Technology servers, a 640 and 220. Both running CTIX and in apparently working order. Some manuals and installation tapes, including MicroFocus Cobol (you deal with licening issues!). Free to good home, but need to be collected from near Guildford. Happy to answer any questions as best as I can. They were given to me whilst collecting another machine. Kevin Murrell kevin@xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk From dogas at bellsouth.net Wed Nov 22 06:49:43 2000 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: ISA prototyping boards at RSLC, was Re: intro and RML380Z References: <20001122102817.29140.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001501c05482$b1350ee0$30784ed8@DOMAIN> From: kebabthesheep >I wonder if farnell > still do 'blank' ISA prototyping cards? > I need to get on and build up my PCB making equipment I live somewhat close to one of the two Radio Shack Liquidation Centers (ones in Jacksonville)... They have lots of *new* ISA prototyping cards for around $5 each (last time I bought a few) if anyone needs any... Cheers - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From rachael_ at gmx.net Wed Nov 22 07:00:58 2000 From: rachael_ at gmx.net (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: MacOS 8.1 on an '030 (somewhat OT) Message-ID: <566.361T2900T8404364rachael_@gmx.net> >This is absolutely *disturbing*. >http://people.ne.mediaone.net/brochner/bornagain/showme.htm It`s running on a 040 there but I belive that there is a hack in one of the apple emulator for that amiga that would let you runne 8.1 on a 030. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind Public Pgp key available on request -------------------------------------------------- = IF this computer is with us now... = =...It must have been meant to come live with us.= = (Belldandy - Goddess First class) = -------------------------------------------------- From rachael_ at gmx.net Wed Nov 22 07:05:18 2000 From: rachael_ at gmx.net (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: TCP/IP on eightbitters Message-ID: <422.361T900T8452812rachael_@gmx.net> There is a tcp/ip stack for Amstrad CPC called cpc/ip last time I looked at it only ran at 6128. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind Public Pgp key available on request -------------------------------------------------- = IF this computer is with us now... = =...It must have been meant to come live with us.= = (Belldandy - Goddess First class) = -------------------------------------------------- From LFessen106 at aol.com Wed Nov 22 07:29:04 2000 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: Rescue Needed: IBM System 36 in Central PA Message-ID: <65.c2f5c6d.274d2421@aol.com> In a message dated Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:56:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, James Willing writes: << Please contact original message author (shown below) if you have rescue this one. -jim ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 12:05:18 -0500 From: Nathan Lauver To: jimw@computergarage.org Jim, My company is in posession of an IBM System/36, most of the docs, lots of software, the line printer, two terminals, and an ISA-based emu card for a pc. I can't find anyone to buy it, and it's getting cold. It's in a pavillion-like storage area outside. I talked to the powers that be, and said if I can even just get it out of our way, they'd be happy. Would you be interested in picking it up, or having it shipped? We're located in Central PA. -Nathan >> Just how big is this? I am located outside Allentown (Eastern PA). And where exactly are you located? -Linc Fessenden http://members.aol.com/lfessen106 From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com Wed Nov 22 08:36:14 2000 From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: What is it ? In-Reply-To: <3A1B2BF9.31770.1FCA826@localhost> References: <3A1A7739.14981.3EDC09B@localhost> <3A1B2BF9.31770.1FCA826@localhost> Message-ID: <00112208373200.00187@Billbob_linux> Hi, > Yeah usually ATI clearly identifies itself. The thing about this board > that intrigues me is the mouse socket. It's like a slightly larger Mac > or PS/2 socket. Sounds like a standard MS or Logitech BusMouse socket to me.. I've got several of these mice & their controller cards. MPC Electronics was selling them for $6.50 a set. -- Bill Layer Sales Technician From elecdata at kcinter.net Wed Nov 22 08:46:59 2000 From: elecdata at kcinter.net (bill claussen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: What is it ? References: <3A1A7739.14981.3EDC09B@localhost> <3A1B2BF9.31770.1FCA826@localhost> Message-ID: <3A1BDC62.2113AC16@kcinter.net> Hi Lawrence, What was model of the Zenith Computer? I have the complete set of Service Manuals for the early Zenith Computers. Bill Elecdata1 Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > I have a short 8-bit card with a strange mouse socket. It could be > > > a Zenith card as I found it in an old Zenith PC case piled up inside > > > with other cards which obviously didn't belong to the Zenith. > > > It has a DE9 monitor connection with a mono/color switch below it > > > and a port labelled "mouse" below that. It is a DIN with 9 staggered > > > holes but smaller than your standard k-b socket and larger than a > > > PS/2 or Mac one. Internally it has 2 game and one light-pen > > > connectors. It's most significant chip is a 100pin surface mounted > > > 6612. The only removable chip is labelled AM2764ADC, and 838AE9G. > > > Most of the other chips are logoed GS. There is a # written with > > > marker pen S88101035. Did Zenith have a proprietory mouse at some > > > point or is this another beast entirely. I notice that most of the > > > GS low-powered Shotsky chips are labelled some multiple of H eg: > > > H10, H18, H38 etc. which makes me think Zenith/Heath. > > > > puting a (bus)mouse and a EGA/VGA on one board sounds a > > lot like ATI - just they clearly marked all boards with > > their logo :( > > > > No idea. > > > > Sorry > > H. > > > Yeah usually ATI clearly identifies itself. The thing about this board > that intrigues me is the mouse socket. It's like a slightly larger Mac > or PS/2 socket. Are there many other unusual mouse plugs. For > example I've never seen a Sun mouse but imagine it's similiar to > Mac or Next plugs. Possibly I'm knowledge-deficient when it > comes meeses :^} Curses on proprietory mfg. > > ciao larry > > Reply to: > lgwalker@look.ca From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Nov 22 09:24:13 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: MacOS 8.1 on an '030 (somewhat OT) In-Reply-To: <566.361T2900T8404364rachael_@gmx.net> from Jacob Dahl Pind at "Nov 22, 0 01:43:43 pm" Message-ID: <200011221524.HAA10674@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >This is absolutely *disturbing*. > >http://people.ne.mediaone.net/brochner/bornagain/showme.htm > It`s running on a 040 there The IIci is not an '040. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Matter can neither be created nor destroyed, nor returned without a receipt. From THETechnoid at home.com Wed Nov 22 09:34:02 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:01 2005 Subject: TCP/IP on eightbitters In-Reply-To: <493.361T350T2404427optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20001122152509.DSWU2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> It is in development. The webpage says it will eventually run telnet and ftp. Right now, all you can do is get a connection and ping. That is a lot of the package though. Regards, Jeff In <493.361T350T2404427optimus@canit.se>, on 11/22/00 at 10:34 AM, "Iggy Drougge" said: >THETechnoid skrev: >>There is a PPP/TCP stack for the Atari 8-bit which allows you to connect >>to a PPP server over serial/modem, but no servers as yet. You can use it's >>terminal program to run a browser on a system like NETHER.NET. Nether is a >>Sunos5.4 system out there that give free shell acces.. >IOW, it runs a telnet client? >-- >En ligne avec Thor 2.6. >G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! >WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ >BBS: 08-6582572, telnet sua.ath.cx, port 42512. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Nov 22 10:30:52 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: Free: 3B2 OS tapes Message-ID: <20001122103052.Q12158@mrbill.net> I've got a set of AT&T 3B2 OS tapes (I think for a /500 or /600) here, that I never used back when I had a load of 3B2 stuff. They're labeled: Tape 1: ------- AT&T 3B2 Operating System Utilities Release 3.2.1 V3 120MB Tape Tape 2: ------- Operating System Utilities Rel. 3.2.1 V3 Issue 2 (1Q92) If anybody can use these, please let me know. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 22 11:14:28 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Nov 21, 2000 07:32:19 pm" Message-ID: <200011221714.JAA12743@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > > > > For older (classic) computers, the bus bandwidth won't support 100Mbps > > > ethernet, so you have to go with one of the 10Mbps standards (I'll ignore > > > the original 3Mbps.. :-)). > > > > I've only found one place where it's a problem so far, with an NE2000 card > > in a slow XT compatible the data rate (even at 10 Mbps) was too high for it > > I would be suprised if a PDP11 or PERQ or D-machine or... would manage > anything close to 100Mbps. In fact I know it won't. They don't need to. Nothing stops machines from talking 10 Mbps over 10baseT. That's what the 10 stands for. As long as you've got appropriate hardware, they can commingicate with a 100 Mbps machine elsewhere on the net. I've got 4 machines on the desk behind me on a 10 Mbps hub. The hub is connected to the 100 Mbps switch that the machine on my desk is connected to. I have no problems with my 100 Mbps full duplex machine talking to 10 Mbps half duplex machines. I don't claim to know how the switch negotiates rates and duplex. I just know that it does. > Of course another issue is that some of these machines have built-in > ethernet interfaces (PERQs do, for example), and there's no way of adding > a 100Mbps card to them. If you've got 10base2 nothing stops you from connecting it to a 100baseT network through a repeating hub or switch. There's no need to cripple the fast machines to support the old machines. > Or because older, larger, hardware is often easier to maintain. Put it > this way, the DELNI (8 port AUI 'hub') is a lot easier to repair than > most of the 10baseT hubs I've seen. The DELNI is mostly 10K ECL. The > 10baseT hub uses a single AMD chip that while standard (I have the > datasheet somewhere), is not easy to get as a 1-off. But at $80 a new 100 Mbp hub doesn't break the bank. (I also have never had a hub or switch fail. Except at work a cheap 100 Mbps switch that we were pumping a continuous 40 Mbps through was getting intermittent failures. We replaced it with a better one and put the old one on a lower traffic line, no problems since.) My guess is that my switches will be replaced by gigabit equivalents before they fail. My hubs will probably be replaced from surplus stores as people upgrade their hubs to gigbit. > > Another general complaint is that 10BaseT to 10Base2 media converters are > > too damn expensive. You can't swing a live cat without hitting a coax > > The media converter has to be a repeater IIRC, and has to correctly > handle collisions on both sides. That makes it more complex than a simple > transceiver. And I guess they're less used than transceivers so there's > less 'economy of scale'. That's probably true. With 100baseT the fast side probably needs to be able to do the speed/duplex negotiation properly as well. On a related note, are there standards for wiring an RJ45 for phone use? For localtalk? (I would assume that it would be possible to put both in one.) It would be nice to have the wired such that a misconnection (ethernet into phone) won't fry anything. It would also be nice to sprinkle RJ45 sockets around the house and decide what to use them for later. Eric From dogas at bellsouth.net Wed Nov 22 11:25:18 2000 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: ISA prototyping boards at RSLC, was Re: intro and RML380Z References: <20001122102817.29140.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com> <001501c05482$b1350ee0$30784ed8@DOMAIN> <001501b2e06e$a58c89a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <001501c054a9$32f3ab50$cd784ed8@DOMAIN> > What size and pad type do these board use? How big are the holes? How's > the provision for power distribution? How are the bus signals terminated? They were full sized ISAs, the boards are green and the holes were kinda small and lined up... ;) Plated through holes and no termination I think. I'll dig one up again for the catno. and specs you asked for this weekend > I've seen some boards I'd consider at the Radio Shack.com store here in > Denver, but I've never seen one in a regular RS store. They looked like closedout regular RS cat'd stock items of indeterminant age but still 'NIB' ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 22 11:45:09 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip In-Reply-To: <20001121202743.21053.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Nov 21, 2000 08:27:43 pm" Message-ID: <200011221745.JAA13289@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Try asking programmers what width processors are instead of hardware > engineers. They'll tell you that the 8080 and Z-80 are 8-bitters, > and that the 68000 and IBM 360 (most models) are 32-bitters. Nope, any programmer who cares how fast their code runs will let you know that the 68000 is a 16 bitter. It's not like I've never coded for 68K. I certainly prefer it to intel. That doesn't make it 32 bit. > > No, every x86 chip since the original 386 is a 32 bit CPU since > > the width of the integer ALU is 32 bits. > > Actually there is a 64-bit integer ALU in most recent x86 processors. > Describing where it is and what it does is left as an exercise to > the reader. Are you talking about the use of the floating point unit for integer multiplies and the addition of MMX/SSE stuff? I don't think that qualifies. The bulk of integer operations are still done 32 bits at a time. > The reality is that there is no single "correct" measure of the > "bitness" of a processor. Ok, I'll admit that. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 22 14:40:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <200011221714.JAA12743@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at Nov 22, 0 09:14:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3384 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001122/c9124ff5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 22 14:30:01 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: What is it ? In-Reply-To: <3A1B2BF9.31770.1FCA826@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Nov 22, 0 02:14:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 674 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001122/546b351f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 22 12:44:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: <20001122102817.29140.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com> from "=?iso-8859-1?q?kebabthesheep?=" at Nov 22, 0 02:28:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3061 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001122/f9ef556c/attachment.ksh From THETechnoid at home.com Wed Nov 22 17:44:15 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: MacOS 8.1 on an '030 (somewhat OT) In-Reply-To: <200011221524.HAA10674@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20001122235130.SCMG2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Umm, yea... That is odd. Maybe the machine has an 040 accellerator cpu installed. I don't even know if there IS an 040 upgrade for the IIci but that is the only thing I can think it might be except that maybe this software product provides a layer to fool macos into thinking it HAS got an 040? Kinda like those software 'math coprocessors' that used to allow you to run autocad on a machine without a 287/387 by providing the function in software. It actually did speed floating point up quite a bit, but not nearly what the hardware FPU would have. I hate it when manufacturers abandon legacy hardware. My Sunbox can't run any Solaris above 2.4(sunos5.4) cause Sun doesn't love me anymore (screwing up eyes to fight tears). Regards, Jeff In <200011221524.HAA10674@stockholm.ptloma.edu>, on 11/22/00 at 06:44 PM, Cameron Kaiser said: >> >This is absolutely *disturbing*. >> >http://people.ne.mediaone.net/brochner/bornagain/showme.htm >> It`s running on a 040 there >The IIci is not an '040. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From red at bears.org Wed Nov 22 18:03:42 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: MacOS 8.1 on an '030 (somewhat OT) In-Reply-To: <20001122235130.SCMG2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Nov 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > Maybe the machine has an 040 accellerator cpu installed. I don't even > know if there IS an 040 upgrade for the IIci but that is the only thing I > can think it might be except that maybe this software product provides a > layer to fool macos into thinking it HAS got an 040? If anybody'd bothered to read the rest of the site, he'd know that the machine the screenshot was taken from has an '040 accelerator installed. Criminy. ok r. > > Kinda like those software 'math coprocessors' that used to allow you to > run autocad on a machine without a 287/387 by providing the function in > software. It actually did speed floating point up quite a bit, but not > nearly what the hardware FPU would have. > > I hate it when manufacturers abandon legacy hardware. My Sunbox can't run > any Solaris above 2.4(sunos5.4) cause Sun doesn't love me anymore > (screwing up eyes to fight tears). > > Regards, > > Jeff > > In <200011221524.HAA10674@stockholm.ptloma.edu>, on 11/22/00 > at 06:44 PM, Cameron Kaiser said: > > >> >This is absolutely *disturbing*. > >> >http://people.ne.mediaone.net/brochner/bornagain/showme.htm > > >> It`s running on a 040 there > > >The IIci is not an '040. > > > > From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 22 15:52:36 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: TCP/IP on eightbitters In-Reply-To: <200011220344.UAA00863@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <845.361T1800T13725237optimus@canit.se> Jim Strickland skrev: >> >Ah the infamous apple 2 ethernet board. >> >> Are you referring to the board which was (supposedly) produced just w hile >> ago, or is this some age-old project? >I was refering to a product Apple designed but never released when I was >talking about the ethernet board. The TCP-IP stack came from a third party >about 2 years ago and is called Marinetti. I was actually referring to a new Ethernet project. There should be more info here: http://www.a2central.com/features/y2kfest/announce/lancegs/index.html -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. S? ja. Forts?tt bara som du g?r s? kommer du i s?kerhet, och raka dig n?r du kommer hem s? ser du kanske inte ut som en apa. Du kan ju leva ett ombonat liv, t?lja tr?gubbar eller n?t s?nt. Lupin III till Jigen, Lupin den otrolige (Lupin III vs. fukusei ningen), TMS 1978 From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 22 18:06:17 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <200011221714.JAA12743@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <679.362T850T664647optimus@canit.se> Eric J. Korpela skrev: >On a related note, are there standards for wiring an RJ45 for phone use? >For localtalk? (I would assume that it would be possible to put both >in one.) It would be nice to have the wired such that a misconnection >(ethernet into phone) won't fry anything. It would also be nice to sprinkle >RJ45 sockets around the house and decide what to use them for later. AFAIK an RJ45 splits into two telephone lines. Thus, it should be very much possible to connect the phone to one of those lines, and Localtalk to the other, using PhoneNet transceivers. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. The most useful program will be continually improved until it is useless. From THETechnoid at home.com Sun Nov 19 01:14:17 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: Form a user's group. Classicmp needs solidarity. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001123001410.SRNR2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> The Vax link messages got me thinking. Why not incorporate the Classiccmp group in the United States? I know we allready have good comms, but this would provide a raft for all the disasociated members of groups such as Nadgug, Decus (or whatever they are calling it today), and others. It would also provide an umbrella under which we could accept donations without taxation. V/R Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From lgwalker at look.ca Wed Nov 22 18:35:24 2000 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: What is it ? In-Reply-To: References: <3A1B2BF9.31770.1FCA826@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Nov 22, 0 02:14:17 am Message-ID: <3A1C1FFC.15414.309257A@localhost> > > > > > Yeah usually ATI clearly identifies itself. The thing about this > > board > > that intrigues me is the mouse socket. It's like a slightly larger > > Mac or PS/2 socket. Are there many other unusual mouse plugs. For > > Oh yes... > > 9 pins sounds like a 3 button quadrature-output ('bus') mouse. The 9 > signals would be : +5V, Gnd 2 2 sets of > quadrature signals 4 Buttons 3 > > For a total of 9 signals. > > FWIW, Acorn used just this connector on the Archimedes computers. And > I believe some standard bus mice used it (Logitec?). Microsoft mice > were 2-button IIRC, and presumably used an 8 pin connector. > > -tony > I have a bunch of MS, Mac. Atari, Commodore, Logitec and other clone mice. They all have either the DB-9,or PS/2 or Mac sub-mini with keying pin. I seem to remember seeing mice with large round connectors which I assumed were the same size as K-B ones. This has a shell diameter of 1/2". Possibly I'm not acquainted with the round bus mice. I'll have to try the card in a ISA box with CGA and Mono monitors and hope the magic smoke doesn't escape. It's about the size of a Hercules card with a much smaller chip count. Might be just the thing for my heavily modified IBM PC to replace the outsized color and mono video cards. Thanks All larry Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Nov 22 19:20:12 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: MacOS 8.1 on an '030 (somewhat OT) In-Reply-To: <20001122235130.SCMG2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> from "THETechnoid@home.com" at "Nov 22, 0 06:44:15 pm" Message-ID: <200011230120.RAA10142@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Umm, yea... That is odd. > > Maybe the machine has an 040 accellerator cpu installed. I don't even > know if there IS an 040 upgrade for the IIci but that is the only thing I > can think it might be except that maybe this software product provides a > layer to fool macos into thinking it HAS got an 040? That's *exactly* what it does :-) it's just a hack to make the Installer happy. Naughty, huh? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm rethreading my toothbrush bristles." - From rdd at smart.net Wed Nov 22 19:46:22 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: Form a user's group. Classicmp needs solidarity. In-Reply-To: <20001123001410.SRNR2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 THETechnoid@home.com wrote: > The Vax link messages got me thinking. > > Why not incorporate the Classiccmp group in the United States? Interesting idea, with chapters worldwide. > I know we allready have good comms, but this would provide a raft for all > the disasociated members of groups such as Nadgug, Decus (or whatever they About how many of us are there? Let's say that there are at least a hundred of us, and we each donate a minimum of US$300 for the first year's dues... that should help to get things going and then have a range of membership types like other non-profits have. For example: US$300 - initial membership fee (required of new members - too high?) US$30 - ongoing basic membership fee (covers magazine subscr., etc.) US$65 - circuit saver (add free access to all on-line documentation) US$100 - supporting hacker - (add free CD-ROMs of x number of OSs, etc./yr) US$200 - restoration supporter (add free T-shirt) US$350 - old iron preserver (add free poster of any old-iron system) US$500 - vintage conservateur (add free swearshirt) US$1000+ - classic computer patron (free admission to events) > are calling it today), and others. It would also provide an umbrella under > which we could accept donations without taxation. ...then sell the equipment to members, and, other interested parties (just to make it legal), as an on-going fundraiser? As companies could take a tax-deduction for the equipment that they donate to us instead of selling it to scrap dealers. We could amass a huge amount of documentation, and imaging companies could possible take tax donations by helping to scan it into a machine-readable format like PostScript. OEMs may choose to donate their remaining documentation, design info., sorce code, etc. information to us for old equipment in exchance for a tax deduction. Then, there are also grants that we could obtain. -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD From THETechnoid at home.com Wed Nov 22 19:59:24 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: Form a user's group. Classicmp needs solidarity. In-Reply-To: <20001123001410.SRNR2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <20001123015014.UZIL2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Um, I didn't mean to send that mail. I was rambling several days back. Today I noticed that this window was still open and clicked on the wrong thingy. Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 22 20:03:31 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: TCP/IP on eightbitters In-Reply-To: <845.361T1800T13725237optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Nov 22, 2000 10:52:36 pm" Message-ID: <200011230203.SAA21888@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > >I was refering to a product Apple designed but never released when I was > >talking about the ethernet board. The TCP-IP stack came from a third party > >about 2 years ago and is called Marinetti. > > I was actually referring to a new Ethernet project. There should be more info > here: http://www.a2central.com/features/y2kfest/announce/lancegs/index.html I've often wondered how difficult it would be to use one of my Mac SCSI Ethernet boxes to put my IIgs on the net. I'd need to reverse engineer the interface and then hack Marinetti to support it (assuming it is actually release open source). Does anyone have a program for the Mac that will trap all the traffic to/from a given SCSI ID? Eric From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 22 20:21:57 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: TCP/IP on eightbitters In-Reply-To: <200011230203.SAA21888@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at Nov 22, 2000 06:03:31 PM Message-ID: <200011230221.SAA01553@shell1.aracnet.com> > > I was actually referring to a new Ethernet project. There should be more info > > here: http://www.a2central.com/features/y2kfest/announce/lancegs/index.html It appears to have been built and costs $155. http://lancegs.a2central.com/ > I've often wondered how difficult it would be to use one of my Mac > SCSI Ethernet boxes to put my IIgs on the net. I'd need to reverse > engineer the interface and then hack Marinetti to support it (assuming it > is actually release open source). People have looked into doing this for the Atari. I know I'd love something like this for my Atari TT030. Unfortunatly no one has gotten it working as far as I know. Zane From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Nov 22 20:33:30 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: "Eric J. Korpela" "Re: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's)" (Nov 22, 9:14) References: <200011221714.JAA12743@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <10011230233.ZM1685@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 22, 9:14, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > They don't need to. Nothing stops machines from talking 10 Mbps over > 10baseT. That's what the 10 stands for. As long as you've got appropriate > hardware, they can commingicate with a 100 Mbps machine elsewhere on the net. > I've got 4 machines on the desk behind me on a 10 Mbps hub. The hub is > connected to the 100 Mbps switch that the machine on my desk is connected to. > I have no problems with my 100 Mbps full duplex machine talking to 10 Mbps > half duplex machines. I don't claim to know how the switch negotiates > rates and duplex. I just know that it does. It's done by a protocol involving exchange of patterns of link pulses when the link is first established. Full duplex and 100Mb capability are offered (separately, and there are a few devices that support full duplex 10Mb although it's not part of the standard) by one side of the link; if there's no approriate response from the other end, the link remains at 10Mb half-duplex (ie, normal 10baseT). > If you've got 10base2 nothing stops you from connecting it to a 100baseT > network through a repeating hub or switch. Well, strictly speaking, such dual-speed hubs are actually 2-segment repeaters that are very like simple switches (or a bridge). They buffer the data between the fast and slow segments, and on the cheaper ones that can reduce the performance significantly. > But at $80 a new 100 Mbp hub doesn't break the bank. (I also have never had > a hub or switch fail. Unless you only have a few, you've been lucky. I look after around a dozen serious switches and about 3 dozen hubs, and in the last four years we've had around half a dozen failures. Of course, one or two have been simple, like dead fans causing a hub to overheat, and we've had at least three instances of a single port failing. That's a lot fewer failures than we have on PCs, but then we have a lot more PCs! This is comparable to the rates seen by my colleagues across campus, incidentally. You should also bear in mind that ethernet is amazingly tolerant, and there can be intermittent failures, dropouts, links that fall back to half duplex etc which you won't notice unless your management system is fairly good. > On a related note, are there standards for wiring an RJ45 for phone use? > For localtalk? (I would assume that it would be possible to put both > in one.) There is, at least in the UK. I don't know if it would apply in the States, since you use two wires (one pair) for the phones and we use three (a pair and a half, but we normally also connect the fourth wire between nodes). Anyway, 10baseT and 100baseT use pins 1,2,3, and 6; the phones use 3,4,5, and 6; ISDN uses 3,4, 5 and 6 for data and carries power on the other two pairs. You normally plug a little white box containing a phone socket and PBX termination into the RJ45 wall socket. ISDN uses RJ45 plugs so nothing extra is required (unless it's a long run or multiple sockets and you need a terminator on the end). You can get little doublers that have one RJ45 plug on a short lead connected to a small box with two RJ45 sockets, wired in such a way that you can plug a 10[0]baseT into one side and a phone line into the other; connect the plug to a patch panel, and reverse the process at the other end (wall socket) to separate the signals again. They're meant for places where there's not enough "horizontal" wiring (the under-floor/overhead/behind-walls runs from patch panel/wiring closet to wall socket). You can also get ones that double up 2 x 10[0]baseT onto one cable, using all four pairs instead of two. > It would be nice to have the wired such that a misconnection > (ethernet into phone) won't fry anything. The phone won't be hurt by the net devices, but it's possible the net devices might be surprised by phone/ISDN voltages. However, as far as I know, we've never had a mishap (touch wood). > It would also be nice to sprinkle > RJ45 sockets around the house and decide what to use them for later. It's called "structured wiring", and that's what patch panels are for :-) All our ethernet, serial, ISDN, and POTS signals are carried on the same wiring and patch panels (except for the fibre, of course). We have about 800 RJ45 wall and floor sockets, not counting the patch panels, in our building for exactly that reason. I have about a couple of dozen at home, but I also have quite a few DB25s, BNCs, and phone sockets :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 22 20:50:26 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) Message-ID: <007e01c054f9$22f7a9e0$5c759a8d@ajp166> .From: Tony Duell . >> I've only found one place where it's a problem so far, with an NE2000 card >> in a slow XT compatible the data rate (even at 10 Mbps) was too high for it DMA, a must and a lot of packet buffers (ramdisk). >I would be suprised if a PDP11 or PERQ or D-machine or... would manage >anything close to 100Mbps. In fact I know it won't. PDP-11 (q or unibus) will not. 100mb/S rate needs a minimum of 12.5mb second sustained transfer and burst rates slightly higher. None of the ISA-8/16 bit systems can. >Of course another issue is that some of these machines have built-in >ethernet interfaces (PERQs do, for example), and there's no way of adding >a 100Mbps card to them. Fortunately 10mb/s is still around for a while. >> Hubs and switches are getting cheap and small. An 8 port switch is about the > >What's the cost got to do with finding space for it, finding power for >it, or maintaining it? It's wall wart powered but software maintenance for them can be a pain. Not much bigger than a unmanaged hub. There is little value in switches until you get more than 4-5 systems that want to carry intense conversations concurrently. >> AUI tranciever in a junk bin, but I've never seen 10BaseT-coax converter the net at work uses a few of them, those are just baluns. Also the 10bt to AUIs are handy for boosting signal. They seem better at taking a noisy 10bt and pumping it on the backbone (thinnet) than a simple unmanaged hub. >Got a load of assorted transceivers for 10 p each recently (about 15 >cents to you...). They can be found cheap, used. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 22 20:56:27 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) Message-ID: <008101c054f9$33403650$5c759a8d@ajp166> From: Carlos Murillo >>don't have to listen to them. Why should me VAXes be interrupted by >>the constant chatter of WIN98? >>clint That was the reason for the introduction of vaxserver3100... >/etc/syslog.conf can be modified to avoid this. Fortunately, we're behind >a firewall. But having to acommodate idiotic NT needs sure sucks. REason, NT uses netbuei (netbios) as it's networking and if your running IP suite then it's netbios over IP. In the end it's netbios that wants to be pinged often. Makes for a lot of short packat traffic. Gets real nasty with more than about 30 systems on a net. Allison From epgroot at ucdavis.edu Wed Nov 22 22:30:54 2000 From: epgroot at ucdavis.edu (Edwin P. Groot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: CorelSCSI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001122203054.007f14f0@yellow.ucdavis.edu> Hi Mark, I had a 286 with a WORM drive that eventually died. I might have a copy of the CorelSCSI on floppy. Give me time to poke about the house. Won't be the latest version if I find it. Interested? Regards, Edwin At 06:09 PM 11/21/2000 +0000, you wrote: >Hi, > >The CorelSCSI package allows various SCSI devices, including WORM drives, to >be used with PC-compatible (MS-DOS) and Mac computers > >Does anyone know what the most recent versions of CorelSCSI for the PC and/or >Mac are? Any idea where I could get hold of a copy? > > >-- Mark > > From kbd at ndx.net Wed Nov 22 22:35:58 2000 From: kbd at ndx.net (kbd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: Free: 3B2 OS tapes In-Reply-To: <20001122103052.Q12158@mrbill.net> Message-ID: Very interested if they are still available. I have option on a 3b2 without any tapes. Kirk -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Bradford Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 8:31 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Free: 3B2 OS tapes I've got a set of AT&T 3B2 OS tapes (I think for a /500 or /600) here, that I never used back when I had a load of 3B2 stuff. They're labeled: Tape 1: ------- AT&T 3B2 Operating System Utilities Release 3.2.1 V3 120MB Tape Tape 2: ------- Operating System Utilities Rel. 3.2.1 V3 Issue 2 (1Q92) If anybody can use these, please let me know. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Nov 23 04:29:14 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip In-Reply-To: <200011221745.JAA13289@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> References: <20001121202743.21053.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Nov 21, 2000 08:27:43 pm" Message-ID: <3A1CFF8A.24367.35E8E7@localhost> > > Try asking programmers what width processors are instead of hardware > > engineers. They'll tell you that the 8080 and Z-80 are 8-bitters, and > > that the 68000 and IBM 360 (most models) are 32-bitters. > Nope, any programmer who cares how fast their code runs will let you > know that the 68000 is a 16 bitter. It's not like I've never coded > for 68K. I certainly prefer it to intel. That doesn't make it > 32 bit. Earlyer you defined the 68008 as 16 Bit - just, the timing influence of the 8 Bit bus is several times the one of the ALU, so where to go ? A CPU is always the implementation of an ISA, and thus the may use a vide variety of details which all together doesn't matter for the programmers view. If you have to count cycles to perform your task, you're not doing (for instance) 68K code, but rather code for a 68xxx Version Y stepping Z. > > > No, every x86 chip since the original 386 is a 32 bit CPU since > > > the width of the integer ALU is 32 bits. > > Actually there is a 64-bit integer ALU in most recent x86 processors. > > Describing where it is and what it does is left as an exercise to > > the reader. > Are you talking about the use of the floating point unit for integer > multiplies and the addition of MMX/SSE stuff? Jep - there's a seperate ALU for 64 Bit integer, including a seperate register set for its operation. the MMX Unit is _not_ part ot the FPU - the MMX data registers are only _mapped_ to the FPU registers - this trick has be invented to make the MMX-Unit compatible to task switching in existing multi tasking OSes - making the new register set visible as seperate entity would have made MMX unusable on these systems until a new task switcher was ready to switch also MMX content - which may have taken years (Windows) or would never happen on some systems - remember how long it took for PC Unixes to recognize and support 287s and up. > I don't think that > qualifies. The bulk of integer operations are still done 32 bits at > a time. Now what ? So 'the' bulk ALU is the one to take ? Gruss H. Ps:.: I love it :) -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Thu Nov 23 06:05:54 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11 available, Bristol, UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 19:49:25 +0000 (GMT) Tony Duell wrote: > > All we have to do is wait for British Airways to get the > > Concorde fixed, and stuff it full of BBC micros, > > Whitechapel workstations, Acorn Atoms, Tangerines, Dragon > > 32s, UK101s and transputers. > > > > :-) :-) > > You do realise there are collectors in the UK looking for many of those > machines (only thr BBC micro is what I'd call 'common')... Well, how about a 747 full of Altairs, Xerox Altos, Next cubes, PS/2 Model 25s, Apple Is, in exchange? -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Thu Nov 23 06:16:43 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: <20001122102817.29140.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Nov 2000 02:28:17 -0800 (PST) =?iso-8859-1?q?kebabthesheep?= wrote: > Damn! Foiled! Looks like i'm going to have to go > with Dwight's (sp?) suggestion and write my own bios. > That should get me back up to speed with the old Z80 > again...i'll try any system disk anybody sends me > anyway - I can alway find the correct controller card > for them. I think it was Monsier Honniball who had > some RML380Z bits... Oh yes, 'twas I... Just the pile of boards and a case, as I recall. Taken apart years ago by somebody else. Damn, why can't they leave this stuff in one piece? -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Thu Nov 23 06:27:42 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: Altos P-system machine available, Bristol, UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Continuing my mission to clear out the garage, I'd like to offer another machine to anyone who can collect it: Altos 8085-based machine, OEM-badged "Simpelec". Two 8" floppy disk drives One 14" Shugart winchester disk 19" rack-mount cabinet P-system boot disk Miscellanous other 8" disks The 14" winchester looks remarkably similar to the drive in the PERQ-I. Unfortunately, I've never managed to get the machine to boot, access or do anything with the hard disk. Last time I tried the machine, it ran OK with the floppy disks, though. You'd need a terminal to use as a console. Don't forget that P-system was not Year 200 Compliant, so you'll have to pretend that it's still 1985 when you set the clock! -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Nov 23 06:36:16 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: It even get worse. In-Reply-To: References: <20001123001410.SRNR2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <3A1D1D50.22610.AA351E@localhost> Just see n at comp.sys.ti PEB means Perhipheral Expansion Box (for the 99/4A) ------------------------- Betreff: anyone make a pc case out of a TI PEB box? Datum: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 09:18:28 -0600 Von: "Spitfire 1500" Foren: comp.sys.ti I wish I could get my hands on an old PEB to pull this off. I mean, it already has a fan, and if you get rid of most of the guts in a PEB(cept that handy fan), I'd say you'd be able to get away with putting in a decent sized mobo. I wonder if you'd be able to line up the cards(pending that you take out the walls in between the slots)! Hmm. Someone has had to have tried it. If so, it would be the ultimate retro computer. ------------------------- Hotroddin' ol' computer cases .... brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr... Gruss H. (I'm gone for a dose of Oxygen) -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From russ at rbcs.8m.com Thu Nov 23 07:52:02 2000 From: russ at rbcs.8m.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:02 2005 Subject: Some cleaning to do Message-ID: I've gone full time self employment and a lot of what I've collected/stashed over the years is going to need to be gotten rid of to make room for working and to store supplies. Hopefully I can get some of what I have into it back on some things. Much of it is PC/XT to 486 era stuff and a lot of that is PS/2 related. Some of it is also Apple/Mac. As I go through the stuff and can determine what I need to get rid of I'll post it here. Right now I have to go through gobs of books and catalog them so I should have a list here soon. I'll also post much of it on my web page at http://rbcs.8m.com/saleslist.html once I can get it together. I'll have parts as well as whole machines. Right now I have a bunch od working PS/2 model 55SX machines, main units only, with HD and memory included. If I can get $5 each plus shipping I'd break even on them. I also have a model 30 and a model 30-286, both in working condition. Again if I can get $5 each plus shipping... I have a book on Ebay right now that I could sell direct - Tandy CoCo 2 Advanced Color Basic programming book. I'm in the middle of Kentucky and can ship USPS, UPS or if you're close enough pickups or delivery can be arranged. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001123/237d4e89/attachment.html From kebabthesheep at yahoo.com Thu Nov 23 08:10:39 2000 From: kebabthesheep at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?kebabthesheep?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z Message-ID: <20001123141039.25581.qmail@web1601.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Honniball wrote: > > > anyway - I can alway find the correct controller card > > for them. I think it was Monsier Honniball who had > > some RML380Z bits... > > Oh yes, 'twas I... > > Just the pile of boards and a case, as I recall. Taken > apart years ago by somebody else. Damn, why can't they > leave this stuff in one piece? > I wonder if there's a standard old single density floppy controller amongst them? I'm certainly interested in taking them off your hands... I've mailed a car-ready mate, so we can come up and collect the bits of suns cluttering your garage, but he has yet to get back to me (He does work for DERA so email access is an intermittent affair) Maybe i'll just try the telephone thing. Haven't used it a while - I wonder if it still works? Dave. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From THETechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 23 09:04:19 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: TCP/IP on eightbitters In-Reply-To: <200011230203.SAA21888@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <20001123145517.HWPK2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> I'm not so sure that is going to work. The Apple II's scsiface is likely a very simple, small-word device. Regards, Jeff In <200011230203.SAA21888@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu>, on 11/23/00 at 10:04 AM, "Eric J. Korpela" said: >> >I was refering to a product Apple designed but never released when I was >> >talking about the ethernet board. The TCP-IP stack came from a third party >> >about 2 years ago and is called Marinetti. >> >> I was actually referring to a new Ethernet project. There should be more info >> here: http://www.a2central.com/features/y2kfest/announce/lancegs/index.html >I've often wondered how difficult it would be to use one of my Mac SCSI >Ethernet boxes to put my IIgs on the net. I'd need to reverse engineer >the interface and then hack Marinetti to support it (assuming it is >actually release open source). >Does anyone have a program for the Mac that will trap all the traffic >to/from a given SCSI ID? >Eric -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From rdd at smart.net Thu Nov 23 09:11:19 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Form a user's group. Classicmp needs solidarity. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > About how many of us are there? Let's say that there are at least a [...] > US$30 - ongoing basic membership fee (covers magazine subscr., etc.) [etc.] Yes, I know, bad thing to follow up on one's own e-mail, however, I just thought about something... an incorporated users group might be a bad idea in that it would lead to attempted computer preservation related activities by committee (and we all know how useless and annoying committees typically are), and people would end up squabbling over group politics, etc., spending more time on things pertaining to the group itself, than on hacking and preservation, which would be a bad thing. Also, once corporate sponsorship gets involved, unless there's a rule in the charter against such, it could become all the more of a tangled mess with the group doing what's best for certain business interests. How long before it would deteriorate into the Microsoft Historical Software Collectors Group or some such? -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD From THETechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 23 09:13:15 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Ethernet on Atari ST's (was Re: TCP/IP on eightbitters) In-Reply-To: <200011230221.SAA01553@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20001123151223.IDNZ2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> There is ethernet for any Atari ST. It's a modification of a printer-port interface for PC's. You build a simple card that propogates a couple of signals not available on the St's printer port through the cartridge slot. At the very least it is supported by MiNT and MiNTnet. If you need help with MiNT, let me know. The TCP/IP stack in MiNTnet is complete and has servers. I think you might even be able to run an Xserver to another station using it. I've got MiNT and MiNTnet on my Mega4 and have succeeded with PPP over an external modem. The only reason why I haven't built the ethernet modification is that the printerport ethernet interface costs something like $100.00 and I can't justify that yet. Regards, Jeff In <200011230221.SAA01553@shell1.aracnet.com>, on 11/23/00 at 10:13 AM, healyzh@aracnet.com said: >People have looked into doing this for the Atari. I know I'd love >something like this for my Atari TT030. Unfortunatly no one has gotten >it working as far as I know. > Zane -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From harrison at mail.timharrison.com Thu Nov 23 11:08:22 2000 From: harrison at mail.timharrison.com (Tim Harrison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Form a user's group. Classicmp needs solidarity. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think we just need to get together for coffee/tea every once in a while. Tim. Geek. harrison@timharrison.com EOF On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > just thought about something... an incorporated users group might be a > bad idea in that it would lead to attempted computer preservation > related activities by committee (and we all know how useless and From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 23 11:19:22 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Ethernet on Atari ST's (was Re: TCP/IP on eightbitters) In-Reply-To: <20001123151223.IDNZ2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> References: <200011230221.SAA01553@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >There is ethernet for any Atari ST. It's a modification of a printer-port >interface for PC's. You build a simple card that propogates a couple of >signals not available on the St's printer port through the cartridge slot. Really.... Where can I find info on this? Is it a specific printer-port adapter, or will any work. It just so happens that I was given an old adapter a week ago. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 23 12:27:07 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: What is it ? In-Reply-To: <3A1C1FFC.15414.309257A@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Nov 22, 0 07:35:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2152 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001123/e1bd581f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 23 12:39:16 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Form a user's group. Classicmp needs solidarity. In-Reply-To: from "R. D. Davis" at Nov 22, 0 08:46:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3361 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001123/a4f0c0f3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 23 12:47:12 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at Nov 23, 0 12:16:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2038 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001123/148ec487/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Nov 23 14:22:53 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: TCP/IP on eightbitters In-Reply-To: <20001123145517.HWPK2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> from "THETechnoid@home.com" at Nov 23, 2000 10:04:19 AM Message-ID: <200011232022.NAA08415@calico.litterbox.com> This came up a while back on one of the apple2 newsgroups. At least with the ramfast scsi interface, there were apparently showstopping issues - the interface was designed exclusively for disks and didn't implement some part or other of SCSI needed for the ethernet device. > >I've often wondered how difficult it would be to use one of my Mac SCSI > >Ethernet boxes to put my IIgs on the net. I'd need to reverse engineer > >the interface and then hack Marinetti to support it (assuming it is > >actually release open source). > > >Does anyone have a program for the Mac that will trap all the traffic > >to/from a given SCSI ID? > > >Eric > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > President > Complete Computer Services, Inc. > 30 Greenwood Rd. > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-277-5959 > Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com > THETechnoid@home.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Nov 23 16:23:20 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: RS/6000 ATM cards Message-ID: <200011232223.QAA08799@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I have some ATM network cards for RS/6000 computers. 100Mbps. If this is of value to someone, let me know what you offer in trade. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From lgwalker at look.ca Thu Nov 23 17:19:06 2000 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: What is it ? In-Reply-To: References: <3A1C1FFC.15414.309257A@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Nov 22, 0 07:35:24 pm Message-ID: <3A1D5F9B.13484.7E9D73D@localhost> > > > > > I have a bunch of MS, Mac. Atari, Commodore, Logitec and other > > clone mice. They all have either the DB-9,or PS/2 or Mac sub-mini > > Many mice, of course, include electronics (a single-chip > microcontroller, normally) to translate the quadrature signals into > either async serial data or PS/2 type commands. Serial mice may well > have DE9 connectors > > As may raw quadrature output mice, where the 9 pins are exactly right > for a 3 button mouse. A reasonable rule is that if the mouse cable > ends in a DE9-S (socket), then it's serial, if the mouse cable ends in > a DE9-P (plug) then it's a quadrature-output mouse. > > Of course if you open the mouse up (this is normally not too hard -- > there are screws on the underside, possibly under labels), then you > can see whether there's a microcontroller to convert the signals or > not. > > > with keying pin. I seem to remember seeing mice with large round > > connectors which I assumed were the same size as K-B ones. > > I've never seen a mouse with a full-size DIN plug.. > Good stuff Tony. Mice are not something that you see much info on. Someplace among my books I have a fairly thick one on programming for mice but I've never seriously studied it. > > This has a shell diameter of 1/2". Possibly I'm not acquainted with > > the round bus mice. I'll have to try the card in a ISA box with CGA > > and Mono monitors and hope the magic smoke doesn't escape. It's > > A useful hint here is that on MDA and CGA cards, pins 1 and 2 of the > DE9 monitor connecotr are ground, while on the EGA card, pin 1 is > ground and pin 2 an LSB for one of the colours. The IBM EGA card > (which will drive MDA, CGA and EGA monitors) has a jumper link on the > card to connect pin 2 either to ground or to the appropriate signal. > > So a simple continuity test between pin 2 and ground will tell you if > the card is expecting an EGA monitor or one of the older standards. > Hmm, in my AT I have one of the full-length doubled-board EGA cards and another spare. Not sure if they're IBM (buried at the moment). I just took it for granted they would only support EGA. > If you can get the PC to recognise the card, then you can look at the > sync outputs (pins 8 and 9 on the DE9) with a frequency counter and > identify what sort of monitor it's expecting. Alas, never could afford one with money that could be better- allocated. In one of the H-P newsletters around 1982/3 they went extensively into their newest model. I did thirst for one at the time but ISTR they were priced at a multple thousand figure. > > > about the size of a Hercules card with a much smaller chip count. > > Might be just the thing for my heavily modified IBM PC to replace > > the outsized color and mono video cards. > > Any particular reason not to keep the original cards in use? Well with only the 5 slots available and an Intel Onboard 386 card and other modifications it gets a bit crowded. I also have 2 other non-modified ones as well as a couple of XTs if I want to look at an MDA or CGA monitor. Never cared too much for chunky CGA graphics in any case. Keep the IBM monitors more for authenticity. BTW an """ ORIGINAL"""RARE""" IBM PC is selling on e-pay right now for $135.00 and has had 45 bidders. Sheesh. I paid $5 for one a couple of weeks ago at a thrift (with non-standard 20M HD) Hype sells ! ciao larry ciao larry > > -tony > > Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 23 17:54:35 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Identify HP board? Message-ID: <10011232354.ZM2404@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> I've found an HP board, which has "HP 03812L" and then "98574-66513" on it. I think this is a part for an HP9000 system, more precisely a "68040 EMULATION PROCESSOR". Is this something you can plug in in place of a real 68040, and if so might it work in anything other than an HP9000? It sounds plausible, since it has an SC140475RC50 (looks like some kind of processor?) and an XC68882RC50A (FPU) on it, as well as an MK4202P (eh?), some fast logic, some cache RAM, and a 184-pin "plug" that obviously plugs into something like a processor socket. I was given it for the 68882, for use in a Mac, but I'm wondering if it's better left intact... BTW, anyone know the difference between an MC68882 and XC68882? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 23 17:18:50 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: "ajp166" "Re: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's)" (Nov 22, 21:50) References: <007e01c054f9$22f7a9e0$5c759a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <10011232318.ZM2323@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 22, 21:50, ajp166 wrote: > >> AUI tranciever in a junk bin, but I've never seen 10BaseT-coax > converter > > the net at work uses a few of them, those are just baluns. I've never seen a 10baseT to 10base2 cobverter that was just a balun -- all the ones I've seen consist of most of two trasceivers plus a little gubbins between. Most of the baluns I've seen in catalogues only connect to one pair of an RJ45, but I have seen one in a catalogue that connected to pins 1/2 and 3/6. Does that really work? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Nov 23 18:03:00 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Identify HP board? References: <10011232354.ZM2404@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3A1DB034.65F3A57D@mainecoon.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > BTW, anyone know the difference between an MC68882 and XC68882? When we were building accelerator boards for the Amiga we used to get those all the time. The Mot rep claimed they were pre-production parts, or more properly, parts which hadn't been subject to the production acceptance criteria. Translation: They're the things that showed up when you ordered MC68882s too early in the game... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 23 18:00:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: <10011232318.ZM2323@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 23, 0 11:18:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 800 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001124/107f3ec0/attachment.ksh From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu Nov 23 17:57:47 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: DPS TBC I Message-ID: <00c901c055a9$2e391220$0200a8c0@marvin> I've just acquired a time-base corrector made by Digital Processing Systems, model VT-1000 (the original TBC made by DPS) for use with my Video Toaster. Unfortunately, I didn't get either a manual or the driver disk required. I've tried various Amiga and video-related newsgroups, but to no avail. Can any videophiles on the list help me with the following questions: - what are the 4 RCA jacks on the back of the card, in order from top to bottom? - what does the switch above the jacks do? - has anyone got a driver disk (for Amiga DOS) they're willing to copy? I'd happily pay shipping and a handling fee for a copy of the disk and/or manual for this beast (made in 1990, I believe, and thus just on-topic). Thanks! Mark. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 23 18:08:03 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: What is it ? In-Reply-To: <3A1D5F9B.13484.7E9D73D@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Nov 23, 0 06:19:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1616 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001124/856732fd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 23 18:09:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Identify HP board? In-Reply-To: <10011232354.ZM2404@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 23, 0 11:54:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 219 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001124/59a293a7/attachment.ksh From rdd at smart.net Thu Nov 23 18:22:00 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Form a user's group. Classicmp needs solidarity. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, Tim Harrison wrote: > I think we just need to get together for coffee/tea every once in a while. Sounds like a good idea to me! Hmmm... anyone interested in a Mad Hackers' Tea Party in the Baltimore area? -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 23 18:45:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: FIlte threads... In-Reply-To: <10011232354.ZM2404@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 23, 0 11:54:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 652 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001124/386e0ba8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 23 18:53:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: FIlte threads... In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 24, 0 00:45:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 177 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001124/8396fa35/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 23 19:19:36 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) Message-ID: <10011240119.ZM2492@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> OK, next question. I've acquired a few Asante FriendlyNet Thin Adaptors. These are little boxes about the size and shape of old Mac transceivers -- about 4" long, 2" wide, 1 1/4" thick. One end has an RJ45; the other has a BNC sticking out each side: ____________________ _ | | { } | |_|_|_ | | | _ _ _| | | | | |____________________| {_} Inside is a standard 5V-9V DC-DC converter, a standard ethernet 3-section transformer, and a perfectly ordinary DP8392 ethernet transceiver IC and the usual discrete components (diode, a few resistors, etc) I associate with an ethernet coax driver. So on the face of it, it looks like a line-powered 10baseT to 10base2 converter. Oh yes, one other thing: the BNCs are self-terminating; they have an extra contact set into the centre insulation (with nothing plugged in, there's 50 ohms across core and screen; with two plugs in, it's open-circuit). But it doesn't seem to work -- so what is it really? If it's any clue, they came from someone who's into Apple Macs. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 23 18:56:40 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Thicknet (was Re: BBS's)" (Nov 24, 0:00) References: Message-ID: <10011240056.ZM2473@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 24, 0:00, Tony Duell wrote: > I believe there is a balun-type thing that lets you use a piece of > twisted pair cable in place of a piece of coax _for a 10base2 network_. > The signals on the twisted pair are not 10baseT, and you can't use it as > a converter. In particular if you want to link multiple machines together > with twisted pair you need _2_ baluns at each machine (linked up to a BNC > t-piece) and 2 pieces of twisted pair cable, one from the 'previous' > machine and one to the 'next' machine, just as you would with coax. Thanks, Tony. That's what I thought. In fact, at least one of the catalogues actually says their baluns are only to carry 10b2 over twisted cable. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 23 19:00:02 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Identify HP board? In-Reply-To: Chris Kennedy "Re: Identify HP board?" (Nov 23, 16:03) References: <10011232354.ZM2404@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3A1DB034.65F3A57D@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <10011240100.ZM2477@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 23, 16:03, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > BTW, anyone know the difference between an MC68882 and XC68882? > > When we were building accelerator boards for the Amiga we used to > get those all the time. The Mot rep claimed they were pre-production > parts, or more properly, parts which hadn't been subject to the production > acceptance criteria. > > Translation: They're the things that showed up when you ordered MC68882s > too early in the game... That would fit -- the one and only reference I found to the HP board number says it was superceded by another, similar board, suggesting this one is an early one. And why would anyone make a complex and presumably expensive 68040 emulator when you could just buy the real thing? Only if you couldn't yet obtain the real thing, I suppose. Thanks, Chris! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 23 20:07:21 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: <10011240119.ZM2492@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: >OK, next question. > >I've acquired a few Asante FriendlyNet Thin Adaptors. These are little >boxes about the size and shape of old Mac transceivers -- about 4" long, 2" >wide, 1 1/4" thick. One end has an RJ45; the other has a BNC sticking out >each side: Actually these just came up on comp.os.vms, of all places, a few days ago. Aparently Asante just used the RJ45 to connect them to their Ethernet card. While it looks like it should be a 10BaseT-to-10Base2 converter it apparently isn't. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 23 20:23:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: <10011240119.ZM2492@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 24, 0 01:19:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 974 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001124/1cc704eb/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Thu Nov 23 20:50:43 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: DPS TBC I In-Reply-To: <00c901c055a9$2e391220$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > I've just acquired a time-base corrector made by Digital Processing > Systems, model VT-1000 (the original TBC made by DPS) for use with my Video > Toaster. Unfortunately, I didn't get either a manual or the driver disk > required. I've tried various Amiga and video-related newsgroups, but to no > avail. Can any videophiles on the list help me with the following > questions: You know, way back when, I got a packet of information on DPS's product line at the time. I wonder if I can find that, and if it might reveal some helpful information. I've been going through a bunch of my docs lately so I'll keep an eye out for it. ok r. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Nov 23 22:34:38 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Identify HP board? Message-ID: <20001123.223440.-4083969.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Pete: Is this thing L-Shaped? If it is, then this is the 'l-board' that goes into Hp 9000/375 (I have one of these sitting in my garage). Anyways, many of these were swapped out in favor of a *real* 68040 running at 25 or 33 Mc. HP used these boards because (presumably) they had their 68040 system board laid out and ready to go but Moto didn't quite have the silicon yet. SO they outfitted the 9000/375 with this kludge (that used a 68030), and the later 380's were the same hardware with the real processor installed, instead of the L-board. The SC140475RC50 is a 68030 (custom spec'd in some manner) running at 50Mc. I would be really curious to know if this thing functions as an '040 in other systems . . . Jeff On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:54:35 GMT pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) writes: > I've found an HP board, which has "HP 03812L" and then "98574-66513" > on it. > I think this is a part for an HP9000 system, more precisely a "68040 > EMULATION PROCESSOR". Is this something you can plug in in place of > a real > 68040, and if so might it work in anything other than an HP9000? > > It sounds plausible, since it has an SC140475RC50 (looks like some > kind of > processor?) and an XC68882RC50A (FPU) on it, as well as an MK4202P > (eh?), > some fast logic, some cache RAM, and a 184-pin "plug" that obviously > plugs > into something like a processor socket. I was given it for the > 68882, for > use in a Mac, but I'm wondering if it's better left intact... > > BTW, anyone know the difference between an MC68882 and XC68882? > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > Dept. of Computer > Science > University of York ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 23 18:03:48 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: somewhat OT inkjet unclogging. In-Reply-To: <0011201335470E.00274@Billbob_linux> References: Message-ID: <20001124045530.MNXL28285.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> Ahem... this is not so quite on topic but I'm sure there is several classic 10 years old inkjet printers but my line of work involves pirnters that doesn't have removeable inkjet printhead ie: epson inkjets. Their replacement inkjet printhead cost over 100 and value on those printers when new is appox 170 to 250 when new. Even HP have gone in that direction for high end printers recently. Now, on unclogging inkjet nozzles. Ususally works but one day I had enough and thought of investing into big gun to do the job. The "big gun" is ultrasonic cleaner pot. Did anyone experienced that this works on badly clogged inkjet printheads? If so, what working cleaning fluid? Pure alcohol? Distilled water? In past, tried pressure unclog method using hobby silicone fuel tubing and 10cc injecter without needle filled with methyl hydrate alcohol 99.9 pure, I find it mose of a crapshoot than high rate success rate. Ink fluid is usually either coloured clear solution or finely powdered in fluid carrier (black usually). Cheers, Wizard From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 23 23:35:32 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) References: Message-ID: <000b01c055d8$5d319000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's been a long time since I last put together a coax board uisng a DP8392 transceiver, but as I recall the 8392 needed relatively few external devices. Its purpose, however, was to drive the coax. I don't believe there's any need for it in a TP application. In the classic ethernet/thinnet board design, there was a controller, e.g. AMD 7990, a modulator/demodulator, e.g. AMD 7992, often with the digital pll right in it, and a coax driver like the 8392, but, in AMD's case it was another device with more pins and more external parts.. The modulator/demodulator drove the AUI outputs, OR, if jumpered appropriately, drove the DP8392. The DP8392 was also the most costly of the three or four popular coax drivers, (AMD, Intel, National, and SEEQ) but it was worth it because of its smaller package size and need for fewer external components. If the board had an RJ45, and also had the coax connector, it was probably jumperable, with a dip shunt in some cases, and a 3 or 4 row pin field with shorting plugs. In some cases, the AUI connector could be adapted to RJ45 with a really small adapter. The adapter to COAX was somewhat larger. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 7:23 PM Subject: Re: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) > > > > OK, next question. > > > > I've acquired a few Asante FriendlyNet Thin Adaptors. These are little > > [...] > > > Inside is a standard 5V-9V DC-DC converter, a standard ethernet 3-section > > transformer, and a perfectly ordinary DP8392 ethernet transceiver IC and > > the usual discrete components (diode, a few resistors, etc) I associate > > with an ethernet coax driver. So on the face of it, it looks like a > > line-powered 10baseT to 10base2 converter. Oh yes, one other thing: the > > To me, it sounds more like a 10base2 transceiver with an RJ45 connector > for the AUI interface. There's not enough electronics there for it to be > a 10baseT - 10based2 converter. > > Now why anyone would use a RJ45 in place of the standard DA15 I don't > know, but certain companies are well-known for deliberately changing > standards for no good reason. > > It sounds simple enough to trace out the schematic in about 10 minutes. I > wonder how it compares to the standard 8392 application? > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 23 23:39:27 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: HP Paintjet References: <20001124045530.MNXL28285.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> Message-ID: <001901c055d8$e92e5ac0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I noticed a rather large-ish HP paintjet at the local thrift store the other day. They wanted $50 for this baby in unknown condition and probably missing any important detachable external components. Does that interest anybody? It's quite large and located in Denver. Dick From marvin at rain.org Thu Nov 23 23:46:36 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: somewhat OT inkjet unclogging. References: <20001124045530.MNXL28285.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> Message-ID: <3A1E00BC.61A967DA@rain.org> jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > Did anyone experienced that this works on badly clogged inkjet > printheads? If so, what working cleaning fluid? Pure alcohol? > Distilled water? I've tried the ultrasonic cleaner with no real success. Someone I know had the same problem with a cartridge that had sat around for a number of days and put some 409 cleaner on it; it worked like a charm even on cartridges that had sat around for a couple of weeks. I would love to hear if anyone else tries it with the same success. From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu Nov 23 23:45:31 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: PDP-11 available, Bristol, UK In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at Nov 23, 2000 12:05:54 PM Message-ID: <200011240545.VAA02846@eskimo.com> John Hanniball wrote: > On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 19:49:25 +0000 (GMT) Tony Duell > wrote: > > > > All we have to do is wait for British Airways to get the > > > Concorde fixed, and stuff it full of BBC micros, > > > Whitechapel workstations, Acorn Atoms, Tangerines, Dragon > > > 32s, UK101s and transputers. > > > > > > :-) :-) > > > > You do realise there are collectors in the UK looking for many of those > > machines (only thr BBC micro is what I'd call 'common')... > > Well, how about a 747 full of Altairs, Xerox Altos, Next > cubes, PS/2 Model 25s, Apple Is, in exchange? That'd be a lot more PS/2 Model 25s and NeXT cubes than Altos, Altairs, and Apple Is. It's the number of machines made, you know. :) Maybe a few Apple ][s or ///s as padding would be acceptable? Or HP, Tektronix, and UCSD P-System gear? -- Derek From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Nov 23 23:48:54 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: <10011240119.ZM2492@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> (pete@dunnington.u-net.com) References: <10011240119.ZM2492@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20001124054854.20905.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I've acquired a few Asante FriendlyNet Thin Adaptors. These are little [...] > So on the face of it, it looks like a > line-powered 10baseT to 10base2 converter. No, it's just a 10base2 transceiver with a funky connector for the AUI rather than a standard 15-pin D-sub. It has nothing whatsoever to do with 10baseT. From enrico.badella at softstar.it Fri Nov 24 01:55:21 2000 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: RS/6000 ATM cards References: <200011232223.QAA08799@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3A1E1EE9.725FDC40@softstar.it> Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > I have some ATM network cards for RS/6000 computers. 100Mbps. > > If this is of value to someone, let me know what you offer in trade. Hi, Do you have docs too? Not that I really have any need for ATM but I have several 320H, 220 and never had access to am ATM network; especially at home. e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From THETechnoid at home.com Fri Nov 24 02:19:53 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Ethernet on Atari ST's (was Re: TCP/IP on eightbitters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20001124081123.NCPB14040.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> It uses the most commond type of Xircom parallel port ethernet adapter and the plans look pretty straightforeward. I'll try to find the docs again. You might beat me with a Google search. You're TT might be even easier since it has a hotter printer port than the ST does. Regards, Jeff In , on 11/24/00 at 03:19 AM, "Zane H. Healy" said: >>There is ethernet for any Atari ST. It's a modification of a printer-port >>interface for PC's. You build a simple card that propogates a couple of >>signals not available on the St's printer port through the cartridge slot. >Really.... Where can I find info on this? Is it a specific printer-port >adapter, or will any work. It just so happens that I was given an old >adapter a week ago. > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | >Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | >and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 24 03:07:47 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: 10base2 / 10baseT (again)" (Nov 23, 18:07) References: Message-ID: <10011240907.ZM2745@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 23, 18:07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Actually these just came up on comp.os.vms, of all places, a few days ago. > Aparently Asante just used the RJ45 to connect them to their Ethernet card. > While it looks like it should be a 10BaseT-to-10Base2 converter it > apparently isn't. Thanks, Zane. Yes, having loked at some of the connections inside, that seems to be it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 24 03:18:28 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: 10base2 / 10baseT (again)" (Nov 23, 22:35) References: <000b01c055d8$5d319000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <10011240918.ZM2774@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 23, 22:35, Richard Erlacher wrote: > It's been a long time since I last put together a coax board uisng a DP8392 > transceiver, but as I recall the 8392 needed relatively few external > devices. Its purpose, however, was to drive the coax. I don't believe > there's any need for it in a TP application. Well, no, you use a different transceiver IC for that, with a differntial output, differential input, and some capacitors for pulse-shaping. > In the classic ethernet/thinnet board design, there was a controller, e.g. > AMD 7990, a modulator/demodulator, e.g. AMD 7992, often with the digital pll > right in it, and a coax driver like the 8392, but, in AMD's case it was > another device with more pins and more external parts.. The > modulator/demodulator drove the AUI outputs, OR, if jumpered appropriately, > drove the DP8392. The DP8392 was also the most costly of the three or four > popular coax drivers, (AMD, Intel, National, and SEEQ) but it was worth it > because of its smaller package size and need for fewer external components. I have a few boards (at least one ISA for a PC, and some Acorn cards) which use the Intel controller and SEEQ. My experience (and that of some others I've talked to) is that the Intel/SEEQ combination is much less reliable than the AMD/National ones. It's also much harder to get the ICs for if you need to repair one. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 24 03:26:16 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: 10base2 / 10baseT (again)" (Nov 24, 2:23) References: Message-ID: <10011240926.ZM2785@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 24, 2:23, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've acquired a few Asante FriendlyNet Thin Adaptors. These are little > [...] To me, it sounds more like a 10base2 transceiver with an RJ45 connector > for the AUI interface. There's not enough electronics there for it to be > a 10baseT - 10based2 converter. My thought too. There would need to be a 10baseT transciever IC for a start. > Now why anyone would use a RJ45 in place of the standard DA15 I don't > know, but certain companies are well-known for deliberately changing > standards for no good reason. I hope you're not suggesting that because I mentioned it came from an Apple environment ;-) > It sounds simple enough to trace out the schematic in about 10 minutes. I > wonder how it compares to the standard 8392 application? I traced enough of it to convince myself that it's pretty well identical to several other 10base2 transceivers I've repaired or otherwise taken apart over the years, except for the built-in 50 ohm terminator and the substitution of an RJ45 for a D-15. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 24 03:10:49 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: Eric Smith "Re: 10base2 / 10baseT (again)" (Nov 24, 5:48) References: <10011240119.ZM2492@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20001124054854.20905.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <10011240910.ZM2768@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 24, 5:48, Eric Smith wrote: > > I've acquired a few Asante FriendlyNet Thin Adaptors. These are little > [...] > > So on the face of it, it looks like a > > line-powered 10baseT to 10base2 converter. > > No, it's just a 10base2 transceiver with a funky connector for the AUI > rather than a standard 15-pin D-sub. It has nothing whatsoever to do > with 10baseT. Thank, Eric, that's exctly the conclusion I came to in the end, but it's nice to have it confirmed. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Nov 24 02:22:14 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Refurbished VIC-64? In-Reply-To: <00111614134904.00276@Billbob_linux> Message-ID: Hello Bill On 16-Nov-00, you wrote: > Ok, seems like a good time to ask about this, since we're on the 80's 8-bit > micro topic. I have a strange machine, and I'm not sure what to make of it. > When I bought it (for $2.95) I thought it was a VIC-20, because it is a VIC-20 > case. Then I noticed that the expansion connector was not the normal (wide) > VIC-20 type, but a C-64 style slot. I also noticed that there was some > neat machine work in the expansion port to accomodate the different connector. > > I opened it up, to discover a complete C-64 motherboard installed, and a big > hot-stamped "REFURBISHED" in the bottom of the case (external). The machine > runs, and it's a C-64 for sure. > > Any idea who might have been "refurbishing" VIC-20's into C-64s? Doesn't make a > whole lot of sense to me... > > > -- > Bill Layer I've seen C64 boards in Vic-20 cases before -- maybe they were using up spare parts. > Regards -- Gary Hildebrand Box 7 West Branch, IA 52358 319-643-5952 x30 or garyhildebrand@kwkb.com From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Nov 24 02:25:33 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Osbourne, Value? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001115181051.00b0a150@binhost.com> Message-ID: Hello Tarsi On 15-Nov-00, you wrote: > I have the opportunity to obtain an Osbourne (no, I don't know what model, > etc). > > What is a ballpark figure for the value of this? I don't have one and am > unaware of details on them. Also, any caveats to watch for? > > thanks! > > Tarsi > 210 don't go over $20 or $30. Ozzzies only had 2 1/2 models, the Osborne 1 and the Executive. Caveats: does it have SSSD drives (80k per disk) or SSDD (160k) ? Mine happens to have the original SSSD drives. Regards -- Gary Hildebrand Box 7 West Branch, IA 52358 319-643-5952 x30 or garyhildebrand@kwkb.com From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Nov 24 05:34:51 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: DPS TBC I In-Reply-To: <00c901c055a9$2e391220$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20001124062328.009e4630@mail.wincom.net> At 04:57 PM 11/23/2000 -0700, you wrote: >I've just acquired a time-base corrector made by Digital Processing >Systems, model VT-1000 (the original TBC made by DPS) for use with my Video >Toaster. Unfortunately, I didn't get either a manual or the driver disk >required. I've tried various Amiga and video-related newsgroups, but to no >avail. Can any videophiles on the list help me with the following >questions: > >- what are the 4 RCA jacks on the back of the card, in order from top to >bottom? >- what does the switch above the jacks do? >- has anyone got a driver disk (for Amiga DOS) they're willing to copy? > >I'd happily pay shipping and a handling fee for a copy of the disk and/or >manual for this beast (made in 1990, I believe, and thus just on-topic). > >Thanks! >Mark. From top: System phase control, (hue adjustment), 2 leds, video present and reference video present (genlock) Video input Video output Multi in/out (I use this as a loop through for genlock) Reference video input (Genlock in) There are also several jumpers, ae3,4,5,6 set s-video or ntsc. bhe1, system phase lock. bhe2, vertical blanking. bhe3, hot sw enable. che1, from top, svhe-cin, video out, ref loop, adv sync. che2, ref video open or terminated. I hope this helps, if you get stuck I will scan some of the manual for you. Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: The Old Walkerville Virtual Museum at http://skyboom.com/foxvideo and Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Nov 24 06:57:42 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:47:12 +0000 (GMT) Tony Duell wrote: > > Just the pile of boards and a case, as I recall. Taken > > apart years ago by somebody else. Damn, why can't they > > leave this stuff in one piece? > > A 380Z _is_ a pile of boards and a case :-). Well, OK, there's a PSU and > maybe a couple of drives as well. Quite right! My machine is missing the drives, wiring loom, front panel, card cage and connectors. > What there isn't is a backplane. The boards slot into card guides screwed > to the bottom of the case. There are right-angle header plugs on the top > edges of the boards, into which ribbon cables plug. Yes, I have the ribbon, but no card guides. There's an extra ribbon cable between CPU board and VDU, as you mentioned. > In particular : > The PSU plugs into the CPU board (only) I wondered where that went! Someone's cut the mains wires and removed the output cables. > There's a 50 way bus ribbon cable that plugs into all the boards [1]. It > carries the Z80 bus signals _and the PSU rails). At the far end from the > CPU board there's a passive terminator Mine has a passive terminator board which has space for a UHF modulator, but the parts aren't installed. > Other connectors are linked to sockets on the back of the case for things > like serial and user (parallel) ports. And to disk drives, of course. As for the disk controller, it has a WD FD1771, a Z80 CTC (Counter-Timer Chip) and an 8251 serial chip. Also the usual glue logic and some 1488/1489 drivers. I also have a 16K RAM board which is just a duplicate of the CPU board with most of the chips left out. The RAMs are installed, plus a couple of address decoder chips. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From kebabthesheep at yahoo.com Fri Nov 24 07:21:24 2000 From: kebabthesheep at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?kebabthesheep?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z Message-ID: <20001124132124.18306.qmail@web1609.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Honniball wrote: > > Mine has a passive terminator board which has space for a > UHF modulator, but the parts aren't installed. > Sounds familiar! > As for the disk controller, it has a WD FD1771, a Z80 CTC > (Counter-Timer Chip) and an 8251 serial chip. Also the > usual glue logic and some 1488/1489 drivers. > AHA! It _IS_ the old card. Just what I need to start using the box. I have the newer posher one, which we may not have software for. I still would like to get the newer card to work tho :) Dave. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 24 06:14:54 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:03 2005 Subject: Ethernet on Atari ST's (was Re: TCP/IP on eightbitters) In-Reply-To: <20001123151223.IDNZ2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <1334.363T2700T7946045optimus@canit.se> THETechnoid skrev: >There is ethernet for any Atari ST. It's a modification of a printer-port >interface for PC's. You build a simple card that propogates a couple of >signals not available on the St's printer port through the cartridge slot. There have also been NICs for the Megabus on the MegaSTs and for the VMEbus of the Mega STE and TT. >At the very least it is supported by MiNT and MiNTnet. If you need help >with MiNT, let me know. The TCP/IP stack in MiNTnet is complete and has >servers. I think you might even be able to run an Xserver to another >station using it. AFAIK, the MiNTnet driver still isn't finished. The STiNG driver has been for quite a while, though. >I've got MiNT and MiNTnet on my Mega4 and have succeeded with PPP over an >external modem. The only reason why I haven't built the ethernet >modification is that the printerport ethernet interface costs something >like $100.00 and I can't justify that yet. I'm in the same position. Does anyone have a source for parallell port ethernet adaptors? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Se pensate che alcune sigle dei cartoni in Italia siano bruttine, ascoltatevi quella di Kenshiro in francese ("Ken le survivant")... Non saprei se sia pi? trash questa o quella di Mazinga Z in Francese... Nicola Solati om den franska signaturen till Hokut? no Ken From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 24 06:23:49 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: Ethernet on Atari ST's (was Re: TCP/IP on eightbitters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <693.363T2450T8036303optimus@canit.se> Zane H. Healy skrev: >>There is ethernet for any Atari ST. It's a modification of a printer-port >>interface for PC's. You build a simple card that propogates a couple of >>signals not available on the St's printer port through the cartridge slot. >Really.... Where can I find info on this? Is it a specific printer-port >adapter, or will any work. It just so happens that I was given an old >adapter a week ago. Any adaptor based on the RTL8012 chip *should* work. The conceiver's website is at: http://users.otenet.gr/~papval/ethernet.htm You may buy the full kit at: http://www.asamnet.de/~hilgarte/ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Computer programmers know how to use their hardware. From flo at rdel.co.uk Fri Nov 24 07:40:12 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z References: Message-ID: <3A1E6FBC.F24B75EF@rdel.co.uk> John Honniball wrote: > > On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:47:12 +0000 (GMT) Tony Duell > wrote: > > > > A 380Z _is_ a pile of boards and a case :-). Well, OK, there's a > > PSU and maybe a couple of drives as well. > > Quite right! My machine is missing the drives, wiring > loom, front panel, card cage and connectors. Oh come on, John. You've not got a 380Z. You've got a 19" cake tin. From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Nov 24 07:52:00 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: <3A1E6FBC.F24B75EF@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2000 13:40:12 +0000 Paul Williams wrote: > > Quite right! My machine is missing the drives, wiring > > loom, front panel, card cage and connectors. > > Oh come on, John. You've not got a 380Z. You've got a 19" cake tin. You're right. But it's a very nice 19" cake tin, with little Vero accessories on... -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From ekman at lysator.liu.se Fri Nov 24 10:25:32 2000 From: ekman at lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: Calling computer collectors in northern Europe! Message-ID: Fellow collectors, I am sending this message in the hope that some kind souls can help save at least parts of an attic-full of classic computers. The story is as follows: Several years ago, a computer company in Gothenburg, Sweden, bought the entire stock of the former Swedish Sord distributor (Sord was one of Japan's major PC manufacturers during the 80's). The contents of their warehouse were soon moved to an attic where it has been collecting dust until today. Now word reaches me that this company is in the process of moving and that if nothing is done quickly, the entire attic-full of computers may be thrown away. Trashed. Destroyed. I once made a partial inventory of the attic in question and it contains some 25 more or less complete Sord systems, plus a bunch of diskless PC workstations, plus printers, monitors, disks, keyboards, various spare parts and more software than a strong man can carry. They may decide to keep a few complete systems for historical reasons, but most will be lost unless something can be done. In fact, it may already be too late as I write this. If you live in northern Europe and if you want one or more of these systems and if you can drive a car to Gothenburg within the very near future then contact me as soon as possible. I have some close contacts at the company and will make sure that you get in touch. If there are any questions, I am of course willing to answer them as best I am able. /Fredrik Ekman PS. Please forward this to ayone you think might be interested. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 24 11:03:10 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: Ethernet on Atari ST's (was Re: TCP/IP on eightbitters) In-Reply-To: <1334.363T2700T7946045optimus@canit.se> References: <20001123151223.IDNZ2350.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: Iggy Drougge wrote: >There have also been NICs for the Megabus on the MegaSTs and for the >VMEbus >of the Mega STE and TT. But try to find one at an affordable price! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From russ at rbcs.8m.com Fri Nov 24 11:37:00 2000 From: russ at rbcs.8m.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: somewhat OT inkjet unclogging. In-Reply-To: <3A1E00BC.61A967DA@rain.org> Message-ID: I've used 409 as well as fantasic and they seem to work fine for most. Sometime you get a genius that used a refill kit for a differetn brand (therefore different mix) and the end result is a new part. Sometimes sources like http://www.agson.com will have replacement parts well under the OEM parts. Check also with a local shop that repairs printers as they may have non-repairable machines for parts use and have what you need in good shape at a reasonable, if any cost, price. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Marvin Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 11:47 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: somewhat OT inkjet unclogging. jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > Did anyone experienced that this works on badly clogged inkjet > printheads? If so, what working cleaning fluid? Pure alcohol? > Distilled water? I've tried the ultrasonic cleaner with no real success. Someone I know had the same problem with a cartridge that had sat around for a number of days and put some 409 cleaner on it; it worked like a charm even on cartridges that had sat around for a couple of weeks. I would love to hear if anyone else tries it with the same success. From russ at rbcs.8m.com Fri Nov 24 11:40:04 2000 From: russ at rbcs.8m.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: HP Paintjet In-Reply-To: <001901c055d8$e92e5ac0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Do you know the model number? There are a few PaintJet models out there, may be useful for parts for one of my customers if it's the right model. Either the Paintjet xxxx (where the xxx is additional numbers) or on the back/side/etc there should be a Cxxxxx number that says model number and also have the serial number. If it's out of your way forget it. If you happen by drop me a note. Denver to here would be pricey but might be cheaper than the alternative if it's the right model. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 11:39 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: HP Paintjet I noticed a rather large-ish HP paintjet at the local thrift store the other day. They wanted $50 for this baby in unknown condition and probably missing any important detachable external components. Does that interest anybody? It's quite large and located in Denver. Dick From gregorym at cadvision.com Fri Nov 24 11:49:49 2000 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: somewhat OT inkjet unclogging. References: Message-ID: <006b01c0563e$f103e7e0$0200a8c0@marvin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 10:37 AM Subject: RE: somewhat OT inkjet unclogging. > I've used 409 as well as fantasic and they seem to work fine for most. > Sometime you get a genius that used a refill kit for a differetn brand > (therefore different mix) and the end result is a new part. > I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing, but does this work for HP Deskjet cartridges (printhead integral to the cartridge) that are still full of liquid ink, but refuse to print? If you clean the printhead with water, they usually never work again. So should I use Fantastic or 409 on a Q-tip instead of water? Mark "Tired of throwing out half full cartridges" Gregory From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 24 03:32:07 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: Identify HP board? In-Reply-To: jeff.kaneko@juno.com "Re: Identify HP board?" (Nov 23, 22:34) References: <20001123.223440.-4083969.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <10011240932.ZM2794@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 23, 22:34, jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:54:35 GMT pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) writes: > > I've found an HP board, which has "HP 03812L" and then "98574-66513" > > on it. > > I think this is a part for an HP9000 system, more precisely a "68040 > > EMULATION PROCESSOR". Is this something you can plug in in place of > > a real > > 68040, and if so might it work in anything other than an HP9000? > Is this thing L-Shaped? If it is, then this is the 'l-board' > that goes into Hp 9000/375 (I have one of these sitting in my > garage). Yes, it is. About 7 1/2" by 8", with a 5" x 4" chunk cut out. > Anyways, many of these were swapped out in favor of a *real* > 68040 running at 25 or 33 Mc. HP used these boards because > (presumably) they had their 68040 system board laid out and > ready to go but Moto didn't quite have the silicon yet. > > SO they outfitted the 9000/375 with this kludge (that used a > 68030), and the later 380's were the same hardware with the > real processor installed, instead of the L-board. That sounds plausible. Thanks for the info. > I would be really curious to know if this thing functions > as an '040 in other systems . . . Well, if I get the chance, I'll try it. I wouldn't be too hopeful, though; partly because it's quite large, and partly because it's been lying around without any antistatic protection for months, and has been handled by several people in that time. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From azog at azog.org Fri Nov 24 12:30:23 2000 From: azog at azog.org (Billy D'Augustine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: anyone in switzerland? Message-ID: <005801c05644$9bf28120$2001a8c0@my.domain> Just saw this on comp.sys.dec. Sounds like a nice deal for someone in switzerland: From: Peter Mueri Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Subject: FS: uVAX2000, PRO380, RD54, RZ58 Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 14:42:17 +0000 For cheap sale, pick-up preferred: 2 uVAX2000/VAXStation2000 1 VAXstation 3100/76, 1 DEC Professional 380 with Monitor/KB and P/OS Distro, RT11-Disk and docu 1 VAXmate PC, various replaement parts various DEC QBUS Cards 1 Rainbow PC with Stand 1 19" B/W DEC Monitor various Disks (RD54 MFM, RZ58 SCSI) Offers per Email please, details available from mpe@pop.agri.ch regards Peter, Switzerland. From russ at rbcs.8m.com Fri Nov 24 13:21:10 2000 From: russ at rbcs.8m.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: somewhat OT inkjet unclogging. In-Reply-To: <006b01c0563e$f103e7e0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: The Epson's have a carriage unit without the integrated ports and the screen gets clogged. The HP's I usually wipe (don't touch the electrical connection)the bottom with a soft cotton cloth and occasionally had to tap them firmly onto the cloth (in my hand, not on a table or hard surface) to work the ink through. If all else fails on the HP and other integral units, replacement (at a lot lower cost than a carriage for an Epson) is imminent/needed. An HP cartridge averages $35 whereas the carriage for the previously mentioned Epson runs around $135 -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mark Gregory Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 11:50 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: somewhat OT inkjet unclogging. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 10:37 AM Subject: RE: somewhat OT inkjet unclogging. > I've used 409 as well as fantasic and they seem to work fine for most. > Sometime you get a genius that used a refill kit for a differetn brand > (therefore different mix) and the end result is a new part. > I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing, but does this work for HP Deskjet cartridges (printhead integral to the cartridge) that are still full of liquid ink, but refuse to print? If you clean the printhead with water, they usually never work again. So should I use Fantastic or 409 on a Q-tip instead of water? Mark "Tired of throwing out half full cartridges" Gregory From marvin at rain.org Fri Nov 24 13:37:15 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: somewhat OT inkjet unclogging. References: <006b01c0563e$f103e7e0$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <3A1EC36B.656A64D3@rain.org> Mark Gregory wrote: > > I've used 409 as well as fantasic and they seem to work fine for most. > > Sometime you get a genius that used a refill kit for a differetn brand > > (therefore different mix) and the end result is a new part. > > > > I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing, but does this work for > HP Deskjet cartridges (printhead integral to the cartridge) that are still > full of liquid ink, but refuse to print? If you clean the printhead with > water, they usually never work again. So should I use Fantastic or 409 on a > Q-tip instead of water? Russ has already responded, but I was referring to the cartridges with the printhead integral to the cartridge. I've also tried water with not much success. I would suspect the success of cleaning has to do with the surface tension of the cleaning fluid; anyone know for sure? From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 24 13:52:00 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: HP Paintjet References: Message-ID: <000f01c05650$02b59180$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'll be in that neighborhood later today and will check. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 10:40 AM Subject: RE: HP Paintjet > Do you know the model number? There are a few PaintJet models out there, may > be useful for parts for one of my customers if it's the right model. Either > the Paintjet xxxx (where the xxx is additional numbers) or on the > back/side/etc there should be a Cxxxxx number that says model number and > also have the serial number. > > If it's out of your way forget it. If you happen by drop me a note. Denver > to here would be pricey but might be cheaper than the alternative if it's > the right model. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher > Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 11:39 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: HP Paintjet > > > I noticed a rather large-ish HP paintjet at the local thrift store the other > day. They wanted $50 for this baby in unknown condition and probably > missing any important detachable external components. > > Does that interest anybody? It's quite large and located in Denver. > > Dick > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 24 13:34:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: <10011240926.ZM2785@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 24, 0 09:26:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1082 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001124/c875447c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 24 13:39:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at Nov 24, 0 12:57:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2147 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001124/876670e3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 24 13:18:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: <000b01c055d8$5d319000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 23, 0 10:35:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 811 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001124/72f3c99f/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri Nov 24 14:03:19 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 24, 2000 07:34:59 PM Message-ID: <200011242003.NAA12828@calico.litterbox.com> > I'm trying to think of any interface on the Mac that is in any sense > 'standard'. And no, I can't think of one... Their serial and printer ports are rs232 ports. their USB is entirely normal. They set the db25 scsi 1 standard. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Nov 24 09:16:47 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: somewhat OT inkjet unclogging. In-Reply-To: <3A1E00BC.61A967DA@rain.org> Message-ID: <20001124200828.YKXM12366.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> > Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:46:36 -0800 > From: Marvin > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: somewhat OT inkjet unclogging. > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Snip! > and put some 409 cleaner on it; it worked like a charm even on cartridges > that had sat around for a couple of weeks. I would love to hear if anyone > else tries it with the same success. Hmmm...what is the active stuff in that 409? Mind you, this is Canada and haven't seen one anywhere except in USA. Water seems to work ok on fresh solids under running water, for old solids takes some scrubbing. Windex doesn't work too well, alcohol sorta ok. As Russ have confirmed the cost of epson carriages is nearly 130 where the value of new epson low end 170 leaving you with 40 dollars worth of whole thing except for clogged head. Not funny and naturally customers don't want to buy the carrage itself, either fix the printer or buy different brand (HP, canon or another epson.) Most customers buy 170 to 250 dollars range epson printers becuase of "cheap" ink containers actually cost more in long run than HP and to some lesser degree with Canon. But yet we want to at least able to repair those plugged up carragies and earn some cash on it along with pc repair work. I think working fluid might be ineffective agent at dissolving solidifed ink. Most of that clogs occurs in nozzles/actators in epson. Epson use sonic action caused by quartz kickers to squrt ink out. HP use resistive heating to instantly "boil" ink. Sometimes we do refill carts and find HP black ink works well on both epson and canon BJ-01/02. Epson and canon, HP color carts most easy to fill because the holding tank is made up of simple vented container and block of felt. HP black ones very fussy due to that air expansion bag. :-P Cheers, Wizard From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 24 14:13:33 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip Message-ID: <01c701c05653$c1a3ddb0$5c759a8d@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, November 24, 2000 3:27 AM Subject: Re: 80186 and now AMY chip >"Eric J. Korpela" wrote: >> You missed the important one, and the only one that counts >> when determining the bitness of the processor, the width of >> the (integer) ALU. >> >> Clearly, regardless of the width of the registers and the >> address bus size, the Z80 is an 8 bit processor, as is the >> 6502. The 8088 and 8086 are both 16 bitters. The 68000 and >> 68010 are 16 bitters. The 68020 is a 32 bitter as is the >> x386. > >Actually, using this metric, the 8080 and Z-80 are 4-bit processors, Where in the world did that come from? The base data paths for z80 and 8080 are 8bits. Key words are "data paths" as the alu on 8080 is basically 8bits (with microcoded 16 bit ops as two sequential 8bit ops). Usually the size of the data word is the metric. What confuses the subject often is the instruction word size (4004 is really 8bit then) or the ability to manipulate smaller than word size (VAX and pdp-11 byte ops). >Try asking programmers what width processors are instead of hardware >engineers. They'll tell you that the 8080 and Z-80 are 8-bitters, >and that the 68000 and IBM 360 (most models) are 32-bitters. generally agreed. It when you start playing with math ops and addressing range that the "size" is noticeable and significant. However if you look at most cpus there is a basic word size and alu size that are amoung the defining parameters. Allison From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Nov 24 09:27:15 2000 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: somewhat OT inkjet unclogging. In-Reply-To: <3A1EC36B.656A64D3@rain.org> Message-ID: <20001124201855.YQIE12366.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@pii350> > Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:37:15 -0800 > From: Marvin > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: somewhat OT inkjet unclogging. > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Hi, Water and mercury is very strong surface tension. Alcohol, soapy water etc least. But I have good success with water when cleaning up built up curds on HP and canon carts that wasn't clogged up *and* cleaning stations, weird. Tools used: diposeable blue wipe due to no lints, cotton swabs, watch for any stray bits! With any cleaning agents discussed here. But THIS simple mechanical cleaning doesn't work too well on plugged up carts. That's why I thought of ultrasonics and effective fluid like 409 or something else. This is why I wanted to see your war stories here with effective methods to combat those problems. Wizard From russ at rbcs.8m.com Fri Nov 24 15:14:48 2000 From: russ at rbcs.8m.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: HP Paintjet In-Reply-To: <000f01c05650$02b59180$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Cool, thanks -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 1:52 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: HP Paintjet I'll be in that neighborhood later today and will check. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 10:40 AM Subject: RE: HP Paintjet > Do you know the model number? There are a few PaintJet models out there, may > be useful for parts for one of my customers if it's the right model. Either > the Paintjet xxxx (where the xxx is additional numbers) or on the > back/side/etc there should be a Cxxxxx number that says model number and > also have the serial number. > > If it's out of your way forget it. If you happen by drop me a note. Denver > to here would be pricey but might be cheaper than the alternative if it's > the right model. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher > Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 11:39 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: HP Paintjet > > > I noticed a rather large-ish HP paintjet at the local thrift store the other > day. They wanted $50 for this baby in unknown condition and probably > missing any important detachable external components. > > Does that interest anybody? It's quite large and located in Denver. > > Dick > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 24 15:29:50 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: Adherence to standards (was: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > Well, my experience seems to suggest that Apple _never_ followed accepted > hardware standards, particularly with respect to connectors. Even their > first serial card for the Apple ][ was wired as a DCE (and not a DTE > which just about every other computer that I've come across is). > > I'm trying to think of any interface on the Mac that is in any sense > 'standard'. And no, I can't think of one... At least on the early U.S. models, the power cord seems to use the "normal" connector and wiring. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 24 17:25:30 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: <200011242003.NAA12828@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Nov 24, 0 01:03:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 496 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001124/dddda316/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 24 18:12:13 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20001125001213.29881.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > Well, my experience seems to suggest that Apple _never_ followed accepted > hardware standards, particularly with respect to connectors. Even their > first serial card for the Apple ][ was wired as a DCE (and not a DTE > which just about every other computer that I've come across is). I'll agree that Apple sometimes carried their "Think Different" slogan a bit too far, but in this case they had a reason. What they expected users to connect to the original serial card (not the Super Serial Card) was a Teletype, which of course would be wired as DTE. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Nov 24 18:17:46 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip In-Reply-To: <01c701c05653$c1a3ddb0$5c759a8d@ajp166> References: <01c701c05653$c1a3ddb0$5c759a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20001125001746.29928.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Eric J. Korpela" wrote: > You missed the important one, and the only one that counts > when determining the bitness of the processor, the width of > the (integer) ALU. > > Clearly, regardless of the width of the registers and the > address bus size, the Z80 is an 8 bit processor, as is the I wrote: > Actually, using this metric, the 8080 and Z-80 are 4-bit processors, Allison wrote: > Where in the world did that come from? The base data paths for z80 > and 8080 are 8bits. Key words are "data paths" as the alu on 8080 > is basically 8bits (with microcoded 16 bit ops as two sequential 8bit > ops). Eric said "width of the (integer) ALU", not "data paths". Note that I said in my message that I thought that was a useless metric. According to its designers, the ALU on the 8080 is 4 bits wide, and takes 2 cycles for an 8-bit add or subtract. Presumably it takes at least 4 cycles for a 16-bit add or subtract. The 8080 takes so many cycles for *anything* that it's not obvious what it does internally on any given cycle. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 24 18:47:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: <20001125001213.29881.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Nov 25, 0 00:12:13 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 808 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001125/f6175a90/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 24 18:46:42 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: 10base2 / 10baseT (again)" (Nov 24, 23:25) References: Message-ID: <10011250046.ZM829@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 24, 23:25, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I'm trying to think of any interface on the Mac that is in any sense > > > 'standard'. And no, I can't think of one... > > > > Their serial and printer ports are rs232 ports. their USB is entirely normal. > > The serial ports on any Mac that I've seen are not RS232. They have > differential data lines for one thing. And I believe that the RS232 > standard specifies a DB25 connector. The Mac serial ports are closer to > RS422 than anything, but they're not strictly RS422 ports either. Indeed. Wrong handshaking for RS422. And their DB25 SCSI isn't the same as the original PC version, and does not meet the spec laid out in the SCSI standard, so their SCSI is hardly a standard either. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 24 17:52:49 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: intro and RML380Z In-Reply-To: Paul Williams "Re: intro and RML380Z" (Nov 24, 13:40) References: <3A1E6FBC.F24B75EF@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: <10011242352.ZM3146@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 24, 13:40, Paul Williams wrote: > John Honniball wrote: > > On Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:47:12 +0000 (GMT) Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > A 380Z _is_ a pile of boards and a case :-). Well, OK, there's a > > > PSU and maybe a couple of drives as well. > > > > Quite right! My machine is missing the drives, wiring > > loom, front panel, card cage and connectors. > > Oh come on, John. You've not got a 380Z. You've got a 19" cake tin. LOL! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 24 18:59:27 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: <200011242003.NAA12828@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <438.364T1350T1195207optimus@canit.se> Jim Strickland skrev: >> I'm trying to think of any interface on the Mac that is in any sense >> 'standard'. And no, I can't think of one... >Their serial and printer ports are rs232 ports. their USB is entirely >normal. They set the db25 scsi 1 standard. :) The Mac's serial ports (the printer port is serial, too) are RS422. And the D25 SCSI is no standard. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Give your child mental blocks for Christmas. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 24 19:34:40 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) References: <10011250046.ZM829@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <000d01c0567f$e12f9080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Does the '422 standard specify handshaking? Can you provide a reference, or, better yet, a URL? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 5:46 PM Subject: Re: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) > On Nov 24, 23:25, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > I'm trying to think of any interface on the Mac that is in any sense > > > > 'standard'. And no, I can't think of one... > > > > > > Their serial and printer ports are rs232 ports. their USB is entirely > normal. > > > > The serial ports on any Mac that I've seen are not RS232. They have > > differential data lines for one thing. And I believe that the RS232 > > standard specifies a DB25 connector. The Mac serial ports are closer to > > RS422 than anything, but they're not strictly RS422 ports either. > > Indeed. Wrong handshaking for RS422. And their DB25 SCSI isn't the same > as the original PC version, and does not meet the spec laid out in the SCSI > standard, so their SCSI is hardly a standard either. > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > > From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Nov 24 19:40:34 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: Fwd: HP 3000??? Message-ID: <4.1.20001124203156.037c3e70@206.231.8.2> Hey folks, Those of you who know HP3k gear, could you be so kind please contact Mr. Muller to assist? The 3000's are not in my range of knowledge at all, just some 9000/300's and the good ol' ancient HP250 machine. Must be how he found me. Wonder if he found one of you HP gurus thru the same "web" search? Please contact him directly as he's not on the list. Thanks much for your help! Regards, Chris -- -- > > >From mailnull Mon Nov 20 14:20:14 2000 > Reply-To: > From: "Chris Muller" > To: "'gcfandt@netsyngcg.net'" > Subject: HP 3000??? > Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:21:47 -0500 > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) > Importance: Normal > > Hi, > > Saw your name on the web in connection with HP. I'm looking for information > on the organization of backup tapes created on an HP 3000. (We write PC > programs to read minicomputer tapes, and want to do one for the HP3k). Thanks > for any help you can give us. > > Regards, > > Chris Muller > Muller Media Conversions > http://www.mullermedia.com > 212-344-0474 > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001124/f76f31eb/attachment.html From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 24 19:38:23 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: Ethernet on Atari ST's (was Re: TCP/IP on eightbitters) In-Reply-To: <20001124081123.NCPB14040.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Message-ID: <882.364T1150T1584735optimus@canit.se> Hmm, how come some messages I receive from this list has the reply-to set to the list, whereas others don't? THETechnoid skrev: >It uses the most commond type of Xircom parallel port ethernet adapter and >the plans look pretty straightforeward. I'll try to find the docs again. >You might beat me with a Google search. Xircom, are you certain? What model? I found two today at a underground shop (where I bought a PCMCIA NIC which sadly wouldn't function on my Amiga). >You're TT might be even easier since it has a hotter printer port than the >ST does. In what way? Speedwise? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. IRAQ, 10984 GHz, V Getting TV from Iraq at all is kinda cool - you can get propaganda in English at 1900 BST, and see the guy with the moustache almost any time. When they show anime it's even cooler... Geoff Cowie From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 24 20:48:36 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: cool stuff Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001124214836.00773b80@earthlink.net> Well today I was able to go and pick up the SOL-20 that I had arranged for. It included a bunch of interesting stuff, including the original manuals and Panasonic TV monitor and cassette recorder. Also part of the package are the following: - MCS6500 Microcomputer Family Hardware Manual, August 1975 - A Guided Tour of Computer Programming in BASIC, (c) 1973 - Processor Technology Extended Cassette BASIC, p/n 727019 It would appear that this particular system was purchased at either 'Recreational Computer Centers' in Sunnyvale, CA or 'The Byte Shop' in Santa Clara, CA in late 1977. Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 24 20:50:51 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: Calling computer collectors in northern Europe! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1496.364T2550T2306543optimus@canit.se> Fredrik Ekman skrev: >I am sending this message in the hope that some kind souls can help save >at least parts of an attic-full of classic computers. >The story is as follows: Several years ago, a computer company in >Gothenburg, Sweden, bought the entire stock of the former Swedish Sord >distributor (Sord was one of Japan's major PC manufacturers during the >80's). The contents of their warehouse were soon moved to an attic where >it has been collecting dust until today. COR BLIMEY! I can feel the blood rushing in my veins as I'm writing this! I've been on the look-out for a "I'm a SORD hacker" T-shirt for years! >Now word reaches me that this company is in the process of moving and that >if nothing is done quickly, the entire attic-full of computers may be >thrown away. Trashed. Destroyed. >If you live in northern Europe and if you want one or more of these >systems and if you can drive a car to Gothenburg within the very near >future then contact me as soon as possible. I have some close contacts at >the company and will make sure that you get in touch. I must contact a friend so that we may arrange a pick-up, at least in part, if that's fine. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. A Spanish MSX Group "Matra" visited to this Fair. I lent Spanish stand to them. They showed and did Promotion play of SEX BOMB BUNNY. And this Game has tema song of Majingar-Z! Why they know Japanese TV animation? K. Ikeda, MSX-Print From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 24 20:58:45 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: Ethernet on Atari ST's (was Re: TCP/IP on eightbitters) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <612.364T2250T2385779optimus@canit.se> Zane H. Healy skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >>There have also been NICs for the Megabus on the MegaSTs and for the >>VMEbus >of the Mega STE and TT. >But try to find one at an affordable price! Try finding a MegaSTE or TT at an affordable price. Anything in the Atari market, save for a plain ST, will cost you an arm or a leg. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. VIRGO (Aug 23 - Sept 22) You are the logical type and hate disorder. This nitpicking is sickening to your friends. You are cold and unemotional and sometimes fall asleep while making love. Virgos make good bus drivers. From phankin at rci.rutgers.edu Fri Nov 24 21:10:12 2000 From: phankin at rci.rutgers.edu (Skimble Skamble Adept) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: SPARC 10, SunOS 5.5.1, root passwd In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20001124214836.00773b80@earthlink.net> Message-ID: hey, The root pass I set (or thought I set) doesn't work. I did the boot -s thing and got a "***NO ENTRY FOR root IN PASSWORD FILE! ***" message. When I try to set the passwd I'm told that root does not exist. I'm a newbie on suns, pity me. thanks, phillip From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 24 21:27:57 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip Message-ID: <02de01c05690$a9f4dc90$5c759a8d@ajp166> From: Eric Smith >According to its designers, the ALU on the 8080 is 4 bits wide, and >takes 2 cycles for an 8-bit add or subtract. Presumably it takes at >least 4 cycles for a 16-bit add or subtract. The 8080 takes so many >cycles for *anything* that it's not obvious what it does internally on >any given cycle. It's not. It's 8bit. the cycles are wastes on delivering status and fetching operands. You do multiple ops for 16bit adds/subs. What makes the 8080/z80 interesting is the acc has a intermediate carry for BCD ops. Allison From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 24 21:50:49 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: <20001125001213.29881.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <558.364T2450T2905763optimus@canit.se> Eric Smith skrev: >I'll agree that Apple sometimes carried their "Think Different" slogan >a bit too far, but in this case they had a reason. What they expected >users to connect to the original serial card (not the Super Serial Card) >was a Teletype, which of course would be wired as DTE. What use would a teletype be connected to a Mac, which runs an entirely graphical operating system? Debugging? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Alle meine Noten bringen mich nicht aus den N?ten, und ich schreibe noten ?berhaupt nur aus N?ten. --- Ludwig van Beethoven From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Nov 24 22:09:46 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: SPARC 10, SunOS 5.5.1, root passwd In-Reply-To: "from Skimble Skamble Adept at Nov 24, 2000 10:10:12 pm" Message-ID: <200011250409.WAA10918@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Assuming noone has set the prom security password, you could boot the system with a known hardware problem, in an attempt to force the OS to drop you into root. On much older hardware, and prior to sun prom security passwords, the classic method was to unplug the keyboard, power on the system, and when it dropped into root, plug the keyboard back in. The method would probably need to be adapted for more modern hardware. Of course, the brute force answer is to reinstall the system from scratch. Or, install onto a different HD, and also connect and mount the hard drive you have, and then edit the password file, and swap the drive back. -Lawrence LeMay > hey, > > The root pass I set (or thought I set) doesn't work. > I did the boot -s thing and got a "***NO ENTRY FOR root IN > PASSWORD FILE! ***" message. When I try to set the passwd I'm told that > root does not exist. > I'm a newbie on suns, pity me. > > thanks, > phillip > > > From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Nov 24 22:30:50 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: SPARC 10, SunOS 5.5.1, root passwd References: <200011250409.WAA10918@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3A1F407A.4873A430@mainecoon.com> Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > Assuming noone has set the prom security password, you could boot the > system with a known hardware problem, in an attempt to force the OS to > drop you into root. On much older hardware, and prior to sun prom > security passwords, the classic method was to unplug the keyboard, power > on the system, and when it dropped into root, plug the keyboard back in. Nicheten worken with post 2.3. (5.2.3). Hardware faults won't get you a root session in single user mode unless you're capable of supplying the root password (which is fun when the problem is a hosed passwd or shadow file). > Of course, the brute force answer is to reinstall the system from scratch. > Or, install onto a different HD, and also connect and mount the hard > drive you have, and then edit the password file, and swap the drive back. Jeez, if you've got the media to do that then all you have to do is boot off CD, deal with the configuration dialog long enough to get to the point where you can break out and get a shell, mount the root file system off the existing drive and then hammer _both_ /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow (this case sounds like /etc/passwd got modified but not the shadow file). No need to install anything... And yeah, I've done this more times than I care to count -- although it ain't _nearly_ as bad as changing the boot controller on a Solaris X86 system. That's a delightful journey to hell and back. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Nov 24 23:12:57 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Available Message-ID: <3A1F4A59.4761065@idirect.com> Who mentioned that they are in Montreal? I have a lead for you! From red at bears.org Sat Nov 25 00:24:04 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: SPARC 10, SunOS 5.5.1, root passwd In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, Skimble Skamble Adept wrote: > I'm a newbie on suns, pity me. comp.sys.sun.admin would be a much better place to ask this question. Though they may suggest you RTF FAQ. ok r. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Nov 25 00:37:18 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: SPARC 10, SunOS 5.5.1, root passwd In-Reply-To: <3A1F407A.4873A430@mainecoon.com> "from Chris Kennedy at Nov 24, 2000 08:30:50 pm" Message-ID: <200011250637.AAA11053@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > Lawrence LeMay wrote: > > > > Assuming noone has set the prom security password, you could boot the > > system with a known hardware problem, in an attempt to force the OS to > > drop you into root. On much older hardware, and prior to sun prom > > security passwords, the classic method was to unplug the keyboard, power > > on the system, and when it dropped into root, plug the keyboard back in. > > Nicheten worken with post 2.3. (5.2.3). Hardware faults won't get you > a root session in single user mode unless you're capable of supplying > the root password (which is fun when the problem is a hosed passwd or > shadow file). > Are you sure it doesnt ask for the Prom password on hardware faults, instead of root password? -Lawrence LeMay From ernestls at home.com Sat Nov 25 00:49:53 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: Computer Device Teleterm 1030 info? In-Reply-To: <3A1F4A59.4761065@idirect.com> Message-ID: I found one of these interesting little devices earlier in the week, and I can't find any information about it on the net, so I thought that I would check with you folks to see if anyone knows anything about it? It by a company called "Computer Device." Do you think they sprained their brains coming up with that name? I picture some venture capitalist saying, "Damnit! That's a good one." It's got an acoustic coupler on the back, a roll of paper behind the keyboard on the front. It sort of reminds me of a blue Apple II, with the roll of paper visible behind the keyboard. It also has a couple of female ports on the back (DB25/DB15) but they are unmarked. Any information that anyone could give me on this Teleterm 1030 would be appreciated. Thanks Ernest From chris at mainecoon.com Sat Nov 25 01:24:06 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: SPARC 10, SunOS 5.5.1, root passwd References: <200011250637.AAA11053@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3A1F6916.80CB8EFB@mainecoon.com> Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Are you sure it doesnt ask for the Prom password on hardware faults, > instead of root password? I just tried it; no matter what I do I get prompted for the root password. This makes sense; init invokes /sbin/rcS during startup; if anything unhappy happens _that_ invokes /sbin/sulogin (yeah, I did make sure that a prom password was set). Maybe I'm not being forceful enough with this poor SS20... ;-) >From what I can tell by poking at sulogin, you can duplicate the old SunOS behavior by setting the value of PASSREQ in /etc/default/sulogin to "NO" -- but that obviously requires that you get your hands around the machine's throat. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Nov 25 01:41:32 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: SPARC 10, SunOS 5.5.1, root passwd In-Reply-To: <3A1F407A.4873A430@mainecoon.com>; from chris@mainecoon.com on Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 08:30:50PM -0800 References: <200011250409.WAA10918@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <3A1F407A.4873A430@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20001125014132.Y12158@mrbill.net> On Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 08:30:50PM -0800, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Jeez, if you've got the media to do that then all you have to do is boot off > CD, deal with the configuration dialog long enough to get to the point > where you can break out and get a shell, mount the root file system off > the existing drive and then hammer _both_ /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow > (this case sounds like /etc/passwd got modified but not the shadow file). > No need to install anything... Its a lot easier than that: ok boot cdrom -s Gets you a single-user shell, no need to deal with the install at all. Bill (mrbill@sunhelp.org) -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 25 01:49:23 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: SPARC 10, SunOS 5.5.1, root passwd In-Reply-To: <3A1F6916.80CB8EFB@mainecoon.com> References: <200011250637.AAA11053@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001124234849.00a87110@208.226.86.10> At 11:24 PM 11/24/00 -0800, you wrote: > From what I can tell by poking at sulogin, you can duplicate the old >SunOS behavior by setting the value of PASSREQ in /etc/default/sulogin >to "NO" -- but that obviously requires that you get your hands around >the machine's throat. I don't suppose you have a SunOS CD-ROM to boot from so that you can mount the drive and muck with /etc/shadow ? --Chuck From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 24 20:26:15 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:04 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: 10base2 / 10baseT (again)" (Nov 24, 18:34) References: <10011250046.ZM829@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <000d01c0567f$e12f9080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <10011250226.ZM951@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 24, 18:34, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Does the '422 standard specify handshaking? Can you provide a reference, > or, better yet, a URL? Well, the standards document would be the definitive reference, but I only have extracts and references in books. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sat Nov 25 02:54:11 2000 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: <558.364T2450T2905763optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Nov 25, 2000 04:50:49 AM Message-ID: <200011250854.AAA07027@eskimo.com> Iggy Drougge a ?crit: > Eric Smith skrev: > > >I'll agree that Apple sometimes carried their "Think Different" slogan > >a bit too far, but in this case they had a reason. What they expected > >users to connect to the original serial card (not the Super Serial Card) > >was a Teletype, which of course would be wired as DTE. > > What use would a teletype be connected to a Mac, which runs an entirely > graphical operating system? Debugging? Eric is referring to a card that goes in the ][-series machines. -- Derek From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Nov 25 05:09:04 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: "Iggy Drougge" "Re: 10base2 / 10baseT (again)" (Nov 25, 4:50) References: <558.364T2450T2905763optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <10011251109.ZM1210@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 25, 4:50, Iggy Drougge wrote: Eric Smith skrev: > > >I'll agree that Apple sometimes carried their "Think Different" slogan > >a bit too far, but in this case they had a reason. What they expected > >users to connect to the original serial card (not the Super Serial Card) > >was a Teletype, which of course would be wired as DTE. > > What use would a teletype be connected to a Mac, which runs an entirely > graphical operating system? Debugging? None. Eric and Tony were talking about Apple ]['s, not Macs :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 25 07:32:22 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) Message-ID: <031901c056e4$a2e56a10$5c759a8d@ajp166> From: Tony Duell >Surely a teletype would have a current loop interface, not RS232. The Correct TTY is not DTE as it's not rs232. >But this doesn't explain why the RS232 data lines are connected as a DTE. Computer used as terminal would be DTE. Also likely is the designer was not familiar with standards and went with the only RS232 they knew which was likely a terminal. I believe there should be two serial (one each) or a switchable option for DCE/DTE. Allison From stewart_kevin at hotmail.com Sat Nov 25 07:37:42 2000 From: stewart_kevin at hotmail.com (Kevin Stewart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: eBay DELNI what? Message-ID: Hmm, I think someone got his pictures switched (Or they made an Ultima DELNI that I don't know about) ;) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=505965674 Kevin From KFergason at aol.com Sat Nov 25 09:24:17 2000 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Macs to Collect Message-ID: Hello everyone, I would like opinions on which Macs to collect. I have a source of older Macs, and while the 'one of each' theory sounds good, its a bit impractal. What I would like to end up with is a list that looks like this: 128K Mac Original Mac II First color Blah Blah First PPC Blah2 First Notebook SE30 Powerful small footprint mac.. I am reasonably familiar with the Mac line up to about the IIci/cx timeframe. I am completely unfamiliar with the PowerPC line. All opinions welcome, reply to me or to the list. thanks, Kelly KFergason@aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001125/fa80fc67/attachment.html From claudew at sprint.ca Sat Nov 25 10:30:11 2000 From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Who asked for these free VAX8350 boards? Message-ID: <3A1FE913.4D26DCAC@sprint.ca> Hi I mentionned I was given a VAX8350 for free about 2-3 weeks ago on here. I had no place for it. So I just picked up some boards from it like someone asked me on here. I got no news from him since. I have 13 boards from what I suppose is the main unit of the VAX8350. All measure about 9"x9" some memory (4MB?) some with a 68k CPU...some I have no idea what they do... If the person does not get back to me these are going in garbage or to whoever wants them -- soon...shipping is from Montreal, Canada. My basement is outta control and I am doing some major cleaning. I dont need these...reply quick. Claude From jrasite at eoni.com Sat Nov 25 10:39:30 2000 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Macs to Collect References: Message-ID: <3A1FEB3D.73B4D3D4@eoni.com> Speaking of collectable Apples... Does anyone have any interest in an Apple IIs system. I recently came across one complete with the Apple composite monitor and a bunch of disks and documentation. Jim From jrasite at eoni.com Sat Nov 25 10:48:34 2000 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Correction: Re: Macs to collect References: <3A1FE913.4D26DCAC@sprint.ca> Message-ID: <3A1FED5D.E6D1850A@eoni.com> Uhhhh... Make that an Apple IIc, ain't no such thang as a IIs... Oops. Jim From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 25 04:15:15 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: <200011250854.AAA07027@eskimo.com> Message-ID: <782.364T750T6753935optimus@canit.se> Derek Peschel skrev: >Iggy Drougge a ?crit: >> Eric Smith skrev: >> >> >I'll agree that Apple sometimes carried their "Think Different" slogan >> >a bit too far, but in this case they had a reason. What they expected >> >users to connect to the original serial card (not the Super Serial Card) >> >was a Teletype, which of course would be wired as DTE. >> >> What use would a teletype be connected to a Mac, which runs an entirely >> graphical operating system? Debugging? >Eric is referring to a card that goes in the ][-series machines. Oops. I'm reading a lot of vintage Mac lists, so I'm having a hard time keeping the lists apart. ^_^:: -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Vi m?ste vara r?dda om varandra - det ?r det enda reciproka pronomen vi har. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 25 11:44:00 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: eBay DELNI what? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hmm, I think someone got his pictures switched (Or they made an Ultima DELNI >that I don't know about) ;) > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=505965674 > >Kevin Heh, heh.... Take a look at the guys other auctions! All the pic's look to be messed up :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 25 12:01:43 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Macs to Collect In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hello everyone, > >I would like opinions on which Macs to collect. I have a source of >older Macs, and while the 'one of each' theory sounds good, its a >bit impractal. > >What I would like to end up with is a list that looks like this: > >128K Mac Original >Mac II First color >Blah Blah First PPC You've got a problem on this and the notebook as there wasn't a "First", there was the first PowerMac 6100/60 - March '94 PowerMac 7100/66 - March '94 PowerMac 8100/80 - March '94 > >Blah2 First Notebook Mac Portable - late '89 (not a notebook) PowerBook 100 - October '91 PowerBook 140 - October '91 PowerBook 170 - October '91 > >SE30 Powerful small footprint mac.. > >I am reasonably familiar with the Mac line up to about the IIci/cx timeframe. >I am completely unfamiliar with the PowerPC line. > >All opinions welcome, reply to me or to the list. > >thanks, > >Kelly >KFergason@aol.com Well, you might want to turn off HTML when posting to this list. If I'd been posting reading from a UNIX box like I normally do these days instead of my PowerMac G4, I'd have ignored your questions because they'd have been to much trouble to read. Also I think you might want to find a copy of the following book: Macworld Mac & PowerMac Secrets 2nd Edition by David Pogue & Joseph Schorr IDG Books (c) 1994 ISBN 1-56884-175-2 It's where I got the above info and has information on all the Mac's you list above as well as help on software of the era. I picked it up when I got my first Mac in '95 (a beautiful PowerBook 520c that changed what I expect from consumer oriented computers (I've used them since about '81)). Wasn't really a help from the user standpoint, but had lots of interesting reading and some cool software (3 floppies). Should be fairly easy to find a copy as the 2nd Ed. made it through at least 4 printings. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Nov 25 15:08:00 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Farallon EtherWave NuBus (barely on-topic) Message-ID: <200011252108.NAA28352@stockholm.ptloma.edu> This squeaks by but I think it's still on topic :-) I landed a Mac IIci w/24MB RAM, an 832MB HD, an 8*24*GC NuBus video card (which will go to the IIsi), the 32MB cache card, and treasure trove of all, a Farallon EtherWave NuBus card which works wonderfully. Total cost: "take it away it's consuming space" Anyway, I decided this would be a fine box for putting NetBSD/mac68k on (and I've got the NetBSD Foundation CDs on order). Then I noticed the card has *two* Ethernet ports on it, which makes me wonder if I can assign them to separate network interfaces. Anyone played with this card and know what the difference between the ports is? Can I assign them different network interfaces, either in NetBSD or in MacOS? I didn't see an option under the TCP/IP control panel (System 7.6). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- TODAY'S DUMB TRUE HEADLINE: Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told ---- From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Nov 25 15:04:42 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: M848 cable? Message-ID: <200011252104.PAA11615@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Does anyone know the part number of the cable that goes with the M848 power fail and auto-restart board of an Omnibus pdp-8? -Lawrence LeMay From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 25 15:32:46 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: VMS BBS network (part 2) Message-ID: This is basically a repost of info I sent out to comp.os.vms earlier in the week. However, I'm not sure it made it out of my ISP since I can't find it in DejaNews. Anyway I'm basically stuck on getting the DECnet over TCP/IP working through my firewall. What follows is the info I'd posted to the newsgroup: I'm trying to setup a VAX behind a firewall to accept DECnet over TCP/IP connections. I'm running OpenVMS V7.2, DECnet-Plus, and TCP/IP V5.0. I've got the following setup: VAXstation 4000-60 <----> OpenBSD Firewall <----> Internet AlphaStation 500/333<--+ The Firewall is doing NAT and I've redirected ports 102 and 399 directly to the VAXstation-60, which from what little documentation I could find on DECnet over TCP/IP looks to be enough. I've got DECnet over TCP/IP working just fine between the VAX and the Alpha (I set it up on the Alpha only for the purpose of testing this). However when I try and connect to the VAX from the Alpha using the Internet IP address I can't. This seems to indicate to me that I need to redirect more than just ports 102 and 399. The following four lines seem to be the only network traffic when I attempt a "SET HOST {Internet IP Address}". 15:21:54.144064 alpha.1062 > firewall.399: S 929664000:929664000(0) win 16384 15:21:54.144066 firewall.399 > alpha.1062: R 0:0(0) ack 929664001 win 0 15:21:54.146016 alpha.1063 > firewall.399: S 929728000:929728000(0) win 16384 15:21:54.146018 firewall.399 > alpha.1063: R 0:0(0) ack 929728001 win 0 Does anyone have any idea what I need to do in order to get this working? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From lgwalker at look.ca Sat Nov 25 18:30:54 2000 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Available In-Reply-To: <3A1F4A59.4761065@idirect.com> Message-ID: <3A20136E.20424.7688BF2@localhost> > Who mentioned that they are in Montreal? I have a lead for you! > > Hi Jerome. That would be ciao larry Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From epgroot at ucdavis.edu Sat Nov 25 18:35:30 2000 From: epgroot at ucdavis.edu (Edwin P. Groot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Farallon EtherWave NuBus (barely on-topic) In-Reply-To: <200011252108.NAA28352@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001125163530.006a4ffc@yellow.ucdavis.edu> I remember reading that the other port is used to connect to another computer with a network card. In that way, no network hub is needed. I don't have the card or the manual to test that. At 13:08 11/25/00 -0800, you wrote: >a Farallon EtherWave NuBus card which works wonderfully. Total cost: "take >it away it's consuming space" > >Anyway, I decided this would be a fine box for putting NetBSD/mac68k on (and >I've got the NetBSD Foundation CDs on order). Then I noticed the card has >*two* Ethernet ports on it, which makes me wonder if I can assign them to >separate network interfaces. Anyone played with this card and know what the >difference between the ports is? Can I assign them different network >interfaces, either in NetBSD or in MacOS? I didn't see an option under the >TCP/IP control panel (System 7.6). From broekh at interchange.ubc.ca Sat Nov 25 19:42:25 2000 From: broekh at interchange.ubc.ca (Henry Broekhuyse) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Farallon EtherWave NuBus (barely on-topic) In-Reply-To: <200011252108.NAA28352@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <000501c0574a$2091db00$6601a8c0@thinkpad> > -----Original Message----- > I landed a Mac IIci w/24MB RAM, an 832MB HD, an 8*24*GC NuBus video card > (which will go to the IIsi), the 32MB cache card, and treasure > trove of all, > a Farallon EtherWave NuBus card which works wonderfully. Total cost: "take > it away it's consuming space" > > Anyway, I decided this would be a fine box for putting > NetBSD/mac68k on (and > I've got the NetBSD Foundation CDs on order). Then I noticed the card has > *two* Ethernet ports on it, which makes me wonder if I can assign them to > separate network interfaces. Anyone played with this card and > know what the > difference between the ports is? Can I assign them different network > interfaces, either in NetBSD or in MacOS? I didn't see an option under the > TCP/IP control panel (System 7.6). The Farallon FAQ relating to how these two ports work is at: http://www.farallon.com/support/emacewavecards/ewfaq.html As already stated they are designed to allow a "daisychain" connection from one etherwave card to the next. They do not function independently. From kees.stravers at iae.nl Sat Nov 25 19:48:58 2000 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: How old is this PDP8? Message-ID: <20001126014858.9CE3920F17@mail.iae.nl> Hi, Usually I don't announce in this list my new additions to my collection. Recently I even have become somewhat ashamed about them, because my house is getting increasingly harder to live in. Sometimes it is more like a childerns maze made out of old computers than a home, and only visitors with a technical background can understand why it looks the way it does. But now something arrived that I have to tell you about, and ask a question too. A good friend works at a big research lab of the PTT here in The Netherlands. They were vacating a building and he could have the computers that were left behind. It was the same adventure as Megan's, including the very large truck filled with classic goodies. My friend gave most of them to me. They were a PDP-11/84 with a lot of drives and a PDP-8/e. He also put a PDP-8 in my garage. It seems incredible, but I think this PDP-8 is an original one from the first series from the 1960's. I put up a few pictures at http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/garage2.html Could you experts look at them and verify that this really is a very old PDP8? I ask because I just can't believe it is one. It is hard to believe for me that the Dutch PTT has kept this machine in its offices all these years. The sticker with the service contract number is still on it. I don't ask because I want to sell it. It is still my friend's property and he will collect it from my place as soon as he has made room for it, and he will be getting it working again too I think, because he was programming it himself a long time ago. Kees. -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ My home page (old computers,music,photography) http://www.vaxarchive.org/ Info on old DEC VAX computers Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 25 20:25:49 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: How old is this PDP8? In-Reply-To: <20001126014858.9CE3920F17@mail.iae.nl> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001125182356.0256f730@208.226.86.10> Yup, that is what is known as a 'straight 8'. Very cool find, the board covers were often smoked plexiglass rather than wood grain but it is the same beast. On step on the path from PDP-5 to Deskmate. The PDP-8/E is nice too. I'd love to have a high speed reader/punch on mine, the teletype is an extremely slow way to load software ;-) --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 25 20:24:03 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: How old is this PDP8? In-Reply-To: <20001126014858.9CE3920F17@mail.iae.nl> Message-ID: >He also put a PDP-8 in my garage. It seems incredible, but I think this >PDP-8 is an original one from the first series from the 1960's. I put up >a few pictures at > >http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/garage2.html > >Could you experts look at them and verify that this really is a very >old PDP8? I ask because I just can't believe it is one. It is hard to That would be a *PDP-8*, although I suspect the wood paneling is an add-on. That's the original PDP-8. That's also a pretty nice looking PDP-8/e. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 25 21:13:48 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: How old is this PDP8? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001125182356.0256f730@208.226.86.10> References: <20001126014858.9CE3920F17@mail.iae.nl> Message-ID: >same beast. On step on the path from PDP-5 to Deskmate. The PDP-8/E is nice >too. I'd love to have a high speed reader/punch on mine, the teletype is an >extremely slow way to load software ;-) > >--Chuck Oh, quite complaining ;^) The teletype is a lot faster than having to enter it in on the front panel like I do with my -8/m! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Nov 25 21:30:23 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: How old is this PDP8? References: <20001126014858.9CE3920F17@mail.iae.nl> Message-ID: <049601c05759$382aaa80$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Hoi Kees, Congratulations on these finds ! The PTT always was a bit backward but I did not think this much. Allthoug .... This PTT-company (a natural DUTCH monopoly that is now called KPN) once had a plan to translate the BASIC language into DUTCH-BASIC. Which goes something like .... ) 10 Laat A=100 20 Van I = 1 TOT A 30 DRUKAF GEBRUIK "###.##"; I 40 VOLGENDE I 50 EINDE Okay........ I'll forgive you english speaking lot that you can not digest this glibberish........ DUTCH-BASIC........ HELP! Fortunately, they never followed thru on this plan cause everyone that was a potential programmer; 1) already could speak and read english. 2) in all likelyhood would not program in ANY-KINDA-BASIC. Alas, I violated the second rule. Sipke de Wal ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 2:48 AM Subject: How old is this PDP8? > Hi, > Usually I don't announce in this list my new additions to my collection. > Recently I even have become somewhat ashamed about them, because my house > is getting increasingly harder to live in. Sometimes it is more like a > childerns maze made out of old computers than a home, and only visitors > with a technical background can understand why it looks the way it does. > But now something arrived that I have to tell you about, and ask a > question too. > > A good friend works at a big research lab of the PTT here in The > Netherlands. They were vacating a building and he could have the > computers that were left behind. It was the same adventure as Megan's, > including the very large truck filled with classic goodies. My friend > gave most of them to me. They were a PDP-11/84 with a lot of drives > and a PDP-8/e. > > He also put a PDP-8 in my garage. It seems incredible, but I think this > PDP-8 is an original one from the first series from the 1960's. I put up > a few pictures at > > http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/garage2.html > > Could you experts look at them and verify that this really is a very > old PDP8? I ask because I just can't believe it is one. It is hard to > believe for me that the Dutch PTT has kept this machine in its offices > all these years. The sticker with the service contract number is still > on it. I don't ask because I want to sell it. It is still my friend's > property and he will collect it from my place as soon as he has made > room for it, and he will be getting it working again too I think, > because he was programming it himself a long time ago. > Kees. > > > -- > Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl > http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ My home page (old computers,music,photography) > http://www.vaxarchive.org/ Info on old DEC VAX computers > > > Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 25 21:51:41 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: How old is this PDP8? In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001125182356.0256f730@208.226.86.10> <20001126014858.9CE3920F17@mail.iae.nl> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001125195042.02f594c0@208.226.86.10> You were lucky! At my house we had to hand magnetize each core donut and then re-assemble the core mat. (with apologies to Monty Python) --Chuck At 07:13 PM 11/25/00 -0800, you wrote: > >same beast. On step on the path from PDP-5 to Deskmate. The PDP-8/E is nice > >too. I'd love to have a high speed reader/punch on mine, the teletype is an > >extremely slow way to load software ;-) > > > >--Chuck > >Oh, quite complaining ;^) The teletype is a lot faster than having to >enter it in on the front panel like I do with my -8/m! > > Zane >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rcini at optonline.net Sat Nov 25 22:17:22 2000 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Altair32 Emulator Update Message-ID: Hello, all: Work progresses on the Altair32 emulator project. See the update on my Web page: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/altairem.htm Right now, I'm working on the virtual disk drives, and a friend of mine is working on the virtual VDT terminal. No code is posted yet, but I hope to have it nearly complete by the end of December. Rich Rich Cini ClubWin! Group 1 Collector of Classic Computers Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /*****************************************/ From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Sat Nov 25 23:31:49 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip In-Reply-To: <20001125001746.29928.qmail@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Nov 25, 2000 00:17:46 am" Message-ID: <200011260531.VAA04702@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > According to its designers, the ALU on the 8080 is 4 bits wide, and > takes 2 cycles for an 8-bit add or subtract. Presumably it takes at > least 4 cycles for a 16-bit add or subtract. The 8080 takes so many > cycles for *anything* that it's not obvious what it does internally on > any given cycle. > I for one would be interested in seeing whatever references to 8080 internals this kind of stuff comes from. The bulk of what I have doesn't give any internal details. I'd alway assumed that there was some sort of synchronization of writeback to the accumulator (or other destination register) or the update of the flags that ate up the extra cycle. Given a 16 bit add takes 11 T cycles, that would be 2 for fetch and decode, 4 for ALU passes, and 5 for who knows what. Probably moving things too and from internal registers, that would explain why a 16 bit increment could be done in 6 T cycles, 2 fetch+4 ALU passes. Eric From mranalog at home.com Sun Nov 26 00:12:59 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Macs to Collect Message-ID: <3A20A9EB.863B73B2@home.com> Kelly said: > What I would like to end up with is a list that looks like this: > 128K Mac Original FWIW and IMHO, I really consider this two computers, the "Macintosh" and the "Macintosh 128K", I have both. The "Macintosh" was introduced in January 1984, the case was changed later that year (I believe about the time the Macintosh 512K was introduced) to say "Macintosh 128K". If you want to add something truely unusual to your collection, look for a "MacCharlie". Find one of these and then you'll really have a fat Mac! http://www.mandrake.demon.co.uk/Apple/charlie.html I still have not gotten around to trying to fire mine up. If you want to get technical, get some copies of the old MacTech/MacTutor magazines. (Started in December 1984, it was MacTech for the first three issues then became MacTutor, now it's MacTech again) I also have "The Complete MacTutor" and "The Best of MacTutor". They sell a 15 volume CD collection that includes the entire archives of MacTech Magazine through June 1999 and volumes I-VI of Inside Macintosh. http://www.mactech.com/cdrom/ Good luck in your searching, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Sun Nov 26 01:31:37 2000 From: kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: How old is this PDP8? In-Reply-To: <20001126014858.9CE3920F17@mail.iae.nl> Message-ID: Certainly is a straight 8. Great find. Looks slightly hybrid. The front covers I believe are from the rack mounting version. However the bottom power supply section is in the same position as the desk top model. Any chance of getting the serial number? This might allow us to date it more precisely. I would suggest closer to '68 than '66 from the ribbon interconnects at the back. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of kees.stravers@iae.nl Sent: 26 November 2000 01:49 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: How old is this PDP8? Hi, Usually I don't announce in this list my new additions to my collection. Recently I even have become somewhat ashamed about them, because my house is getting increasingly harder to live in. Sometimes it is more like a childerns maze made out of old computers than a home, and only visitors with a technical background can understand why it looks the way it does. But now something arrived that I have to tell you about, and ask a question too. A good friend works at a big research lab of the PTT here in The Netherlands. They were vacating a building and he could have the computers that were left behind. It was the same adventure as Megan's, including the very large truck filled with classic goodies. My friend gave most of them to me. They were a PDP-11/84 with a lot of drives and a PDP-8/e. He also put a PDP-8 in my garage. It seems incredible, but I think this PDP-8 is an original one from the first series from the 1960's. I put up a few pictures at http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/garage2.html Could you experts look at them and verify that this really is a very old PDP8? I ask because I just can't believe it is one. It is hard to believe for me that the Dutch PTT has kept this machine in its offices all these years. The sticker with the service contract number is still on it. I don't ask because I want to sell it. It is still my friend's property and he will collect it from my place as soon as he has made room for it, and he will be getting it working again too I think, because he was programming it himself a long time ago. Kees. -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ My home page (old computers,music,photography) http://www.vaxarchive.org/ Info on old DEC VAX computers Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered From kees.stravers at iae.nl Sun Nov 26 07:16:37 2000 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: How old is this PDP8? Message-ID: <20001126131637.82C5720F22@mail.iae.nl> Now you made me go and take off the cover! :-) I didn't dare to do so at first, because of the limited space, but nothing got damaged and it paid off. I found an extended warranty sticker that said 'Reading Checkout XII.67', so your suggestion is correct! While the cover was off I made some more pictures for the page. http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/garage2.html Kees On 2000-11-26 classiccmp@classiccmp.org said to kees.stravers@iae.nl >Certainly is a straight 8. Great find. Looks slightly hybrid. >The front covers I believe are from the rack mounting version. >However the bottom power supply section is in the same position as >the desk top model. >Any chance of getting the serial number? This might allow us to >date it more precisely. I would suggest closer to '68 than '66 >from the ribbon interconnects at the back. >Kevin >-----Original Message----- >kees.stravers@iae.nl >Sent: 26 November 2000 01:49 >He also put a PDP-8 in my garage. It seems incredible, but I think >this PDP-8 is an original one from the first series from the 1960's. >I put up a few pictures at >http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/garage2.html >Could you experts look at them and verify that this really is a very >old PDP8? I ask because I just can't believe it is one. -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ My home page (old computers,music,photography) http://www.vaxarchive.org/ Info on old DEC VAX computers Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered From harrison at mail.timharrison.com Sun Nov 26 11:57:46 2000 From: harrison at mail.timharrison.com (Tim Harrison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Form a user's group. Classicmp needs solidarity. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, being stuck in the upper Westchester area of NYS, I vote for a meeting in NYC. I know some really great pubs there (and believe it or not, they're not all that expensive). Mullens on 7th between 24th and 25th, or Mustang Sallys at 7th and 28th. Tim. Geek. harrison@timharrison.com EOF On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, Tim Harrison wrote: > > I think we just need to get together for coffee/tea every once in a while. > > Sounds like a good idea to me! Hmmm... anyone interested in a Mad > Hackers' Tea Party in the Baltimore area? > > -- > Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of > All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to > rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD > > > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 26 11:53:00 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: 80186 and now AMY chip Message-ID: <042f01c057d3$9fdc8840$5c759a8d@ajp166> From: Eric J. Korpela >I for one would be interested in seeing whatever references to 8080 internals >this kind of stuff comes from. The bulk of what I have doesn't give any >internal details. I'd alway assumed that there was some sort of >synchronization of writeback to the accumulator (or other destination register) >or the update of the flags that ate up the extra cycle. On the 8080 you have cycles that are 3-6 clocks long and total cycles(clocks). IE: to fetch a 3byte operand like a LXI SP,1234 requires 3 CYCLES and and an extra clock to put it in the SP. Still thats only 10 clocks. an an ADD REG is only one cycle and 4 clocks, the address and staus out eat two clocks with status availabile on the midpoint of the second clock. The remaining clocks, T3 is the instruction decode time and T4 is the actual operation. For DAD (16bit add) 10 cycles breaks to the first 3 as setup and exectute overhead and 6 (basically two 8bit adds) spread across thre cycles. The second two cycles have one clock each of over head as the internal bus is used to transfer status to the out side world (bus idle state). >Given a 16 bit add takes 11 T cycles, that would be 2 for fetch and decode, not for the 8080, it's 10. For z80 it's 11. >4 for ALU passes, and 5 for who knows what. Probably moving things too and >from internal registers, that would explain why a 16 bit increment could be >done in 6 T cycles, 2 fetch+4 ALU passes. keep in mind the internal busses are few, so if status has to be moved to to the TEMP for a bit test the bus takes a cycle. Z80 adds little overheads like refresh (ever wonder what bus is used to get R tot he low address bus?). Allison From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sun Nov 26 13:32:17 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: I have a KS10 now... Message-ID: <13598671263.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Serial number appears to be 4469. I got it from John Wilson, moved it 1000 miles to home. It looks too heavy to drag up the stairs so chances are really good it'll stay in the (heated) garage. We also got a TU45 and a spare formatter for it. (Question, can I just plug any Pertec Unformatted 1600/800 drive into that and make it work, or only special Pertec devices?) Current status of the machine is unknown - It's never been powered on. We'll be cleaning it up, taking lots of pictures, and checking things out before it gets powered on. But that should be sometime soon. In any case, I'll have pictures posted before the week's out. And now, I'm going to do a jig and generally behave like a child until the high wears off :) More information to come. ------- From azog at azog.org Sun Nov 26 14:46:35 2000 From: azog at azog.org (Billy D'Augustine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Form a user's group. Classicmp needs solidarity. References: Message-ID: <001001c057e9$f7a731e0$2001a8c0@my.domain> I'd be interested in attending something like a mini-swap-meet. Used to go to them some years ago. We'd all pile our cars, vans, u-hauls, etc with stuff, and meet at someone's house. Preferably someone who has a house that can accomodate the ratio of humans:computers I imagine this would generate... Hey, while writing this, for some reason, someone's name popped into my head, and this is the place I'd expect to find him, if anywhere. Anyone know Charles Lasner? Used to be a big PDP-8 goomba, but after I dropped off the planet for several years, I haven't heard from/of him. (central NJ is my locale, but my small apartment wouldn't suffice :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Harrison" To: Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 12:57 PM Subject: Re: Form a user's group. Classicmp needs solidarity. > > Well, being stuck in the upper Westchester area of NYS, I vote for a > meeting in NYC. I know some really great pubs there (and believe it or > not, they're not all that expensive). > > Mullens on 7th between 24th and 25th, or Mustang Sallys at 7th and 28th. > > > Tim. > Geek. > harrison@timharrison.com > EOF > > On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, R. D. Davis wrote: > > > On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, Tim Harrison wrote: > > > I think we just need to get together for coffee/tea every once in a while. > > > > Sounds like a good idea to me! Hmmm... anyone interested in a Mad > > Hackers' Tea Party in the Baltimore area? > > > > -- > > Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of > > All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to > > rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like > > http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD > > > > > > > > > > > From wilson at dbit.com Sun Nov 26 14:56:39 2000 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: I have a KS10 now... Message-ID: <200011262056.eAQKudx07740@dbit.dbit.com> >From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" >I got it from John Wilson, moved it 1000 >miles to home. Just for the record: this KS10 and TU45 belonged to Gordon Greene, I was only storing them for him, until he finally decided that if he hadn't powered them on in the nine years since we retrieved them from Texas, it was never going to happen. Glad to hear you guys made it back OK, that was a pretty long round trip to make in 2.5 days! John Wilson D Bit From MRC at Panda.COM Sun Nov 26 16:46:03 2000 From: MRC at Panda.COM (Mark Crispin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: I have a KS10 now... In-Reply-To: <13598671263.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:32:17 -0800, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Serial number appears to be 4469. I'd be interested in you can verify that. My first KS is 4464, which I had thought was the last one made. From root at bony.umtec.com Sun Nov 26 18:37:11 2000 From: root at bony.umtec.com (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: I have a KS10 now... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, Mark Crispin wrote: > On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:32:17 -0800, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > Serial number appears to be 4469. > > I'd be interested in you can verify that. My first KS is 4464, which I had > thought was the last one made. The number is printed on the top rear of the rack, I have a KS10-AA, the serial number as printed is MRR4469. This is also printed in several places on stickers affixed to other places in the rack. Right now, I've finished making sure there are no obvious mechanical faults (I.E. making sure I didn't destroy it moving it), pulling all the various boards out, making sure the chips on them are well seated, etc. Then I might just try turning it on. (The top of the Mighty Mite is rather scary looking and I'd rather not go poking a voltmeter in there unless I have to, lest I bridge two terminals or something and destroy it.) Will it be unhappy with my if I plug all these 120 AC plugs (I found 3 so far, one for the fan at the base of the rack, one for the KS logic, and one for the UNIBUS box) into a normal powerstrip instead of DEC's? I don't have the proper plug for the end of the power controller, and this is what I do for my PDP-11s anyway. Does anyone have the jumper settings for the console board? I'l like to not have to try guessing what speed/stops/bits/etc. it's set to. Oh, and I did neglect to mention that the machine was earmarked for Gordon Greene, who graciously let me snag the machine out from underneath him. You have my eternal thanks, I didn't mean to leave you out. "Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT "You'd be surprised what you can live through..." -- Anonymous "...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's his honour that gets passed through his daughters. He can see the best and worst of life in his girls. A daughter is something far too precious, and he'll do anything to protect her." -- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver From jtinker at coin.org Sun Nov 26 19:09:57 2000 From: jtinker at coin.org (John Tinker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia References: Message-ID: <3A21B465.17E06CAE@coin.org> My very first computer was actually the Heathkit EC-1 from Iowa City that just traded last week on ebay. When I saw Iowa City in the listing, I wrote to the fellow, and sure enough, it's a small world. I had purchased it at the University or Iowa Surplus outlet for next to nothing, maybe $5. I sold it about 20 years ago for $25. I played with it slightly, but never had any attachment to it, and hardly knew what it was, at the time. Next I got a Scelbi 8h. I traded an EKG machine, that I also got from University Surplus, for it. This has 1k of ram, with an 8008. The very first kit with a microprocessor. No keyboard, video, paper tape, nothing. And all entry is via front panel switches. This was my introduction to processors, and I managed to load a program that made the data lights sweep from left to right. That was quite an accomplishment, because the "step" switch was so noisy that it was difficult to load very many instructions without screwing something up. This machine has 14 I/O connectors that look like octal sockets, but have 11 pins. My most ambitous project was to wire up a series of oscillators, hoping to build a music machine. My next machine was an Imlac PDS-1. I got it at a community auction for $25, bidding against a guy in farm boots and overalls who couldn't have had the slightest idea what he was bidding on. I barely did myself. But it had lots of switches and lights, which were neat. The manuals didn't come with it, but I picked them up at the Surplus several months later. By then I had bumblingly erased any resident bootstraps or character generators it might have had in its 8k of 16 bit core. So I spent about a month writing my own character generator and keyboard routines. I really got into the guts of this machine once when it developed a problem with the ALU. It was spread out over 4 boards, 4 bits each, in TTL. I drew the whole thing out and tracked down the bad chip. It was exhilarating when it finally worked, but it took about 40 hours. Next I got a Commodore Pet, It had 4k of ram and a tape unit. But I didn't have it long, because a friend really wanted to give it a try, and I was so rich in electronic junk that it would have seemed selfish to deny it to him. Besides, he was a philosopher, so it seemed like outreach to let him toy with it. He liked it so much that I couldn't ask for it back. After that, I got my first "real" computer, a Commodore 64. Wow, what a machine! Totally modern. A electronic friend had wired a torque sensor to a voltage to frequency converter that plugged into the user port, and convinced a factory in Ohio that I could solve their statistical quality control problems for them. So I bought a disk drive at K-Mart, and started programming. Soon I upgraded to twice as much memory and greater speed with the C-128. Years later I traded it for a trap dipole. I miss the C-128, but the dipole is on my roof to this day. The same electronic friend had created an infrared thermometer that required a Motorola 6805 and look-up table to compensate it, but he wasn't into programming at all. He sort of thought processors were a sort of dishonest approach to electronic design -- so he had me do it. I borrowed a Compaq Portable that had an eprom burner board in it, and wrote a 6805 emulator in BASIC. Another friend had written a cross-assembler for the 6805, also in BASIC. I became quite fond of the Compaq along the way. Very nice keyboard. The processor had been upgraded to the NCR V-20 (10 MHz) and the drive upgraded to 20 Mb from the original 10. I sold my grandfather's baseball cards (1909 tobacco series) and bought it. It was a career investment, and I was hoping he would have understood. Along the way I developed a project (Peace Parts) in Nicaragua during the Reagan war. I was a "sandalista". So I lugged the Compaq there and back several times. I used it to print mailing labels, and to write a newsletter. I know this is a hardware thread, but maybe software comments would be interesting to some. Database engines were barely available and were expensive. The mailing labels were produced from a text file that used the left-most character as a key to the function of any particular line in the file, so I could have conditional output. I did everything in BASIC. Finally I bit the bullet and learned dbaseIII. Then I learned Clipper. That lead to writing a water billing program for a small town in Iowa, then to the development of state database for industrial recycling, then to a billing system for MCI, all in Clipper. Last year I designed a "billing verification system" for a web-based insurance brokerage integrator, and lead the team effort to construct it, which we did in MS Access. Currently I'm self-unemployed and trying to use the time to unload several buildings worth of priceless antiques. Well, actually they do have prices, bargains in fact. Just several months ago I got a dollar each for 20 cga monitors, from a fraternity that wanted to throw them off of their roof so as to impress new pledges. What could I say? I would have had to pay good money to take them to the dump. My greatest regrets along this line would include the drum storage I disassembled for the motor, and all of the vacuum tube logic cards I pitched. My collection includes: Scelbi 8h Imlac PDS-1 Microkit 8/16 IBM 5110-3 Commodore 8032-32B Commodore 64 HP-35 calculator HP-85 Timex Sinclair 1000 TI-74-S Compaq Portable Apple IIc Apple Macintosh 512k NEC PC-IV Guidance computer from Minute Man missle (1961) From rs at seastrom.com Sun Nov 26 19:32:46 2000 From: rs at seastrom.com (Robert E. Seastrom) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: I have a KS10 now... In-Reply-To: Daniel Seagraves's message of "Sun, 26 Nov 2000 18:37:11 -0600 (CST)" References: Message-ID: <87k89qmc75.fsf@valhalla.seastrom.com> Daniel Seagraves writes: > Will it be unhappy with my if I plug all these 120 AC plugs (I found 3 so > far, one for the fan at the base of the rack, one for the KS logic, and > one for the UNIBUS box) into a normal powerstrip instead of DEC's? > I don't have the proper plug for the end of the power controller, and this > is what I do for my PDP-11s anyway. Actually, you can _just_ get away with plugging it into a 15 amp circuit if you unscrew the L5-30P and replace it with a 5-15. I used to do that all the time... I was told by one person that the L5-30 was for mechanical reasons, not for electrical (L5-20 is kind of wimpy). ---Rob From wilson at dbit.com Sun Nov 26 19:52:13 2000 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: I have a KS10 now... Message-ID: <200011270152.eAR1qDU07957@dbit.dbit.com> >From: Daniel Seagraves >Will it be unhappy with my if I plug all these 120 AC plugs (I found 3 so >far, one for the fan at the base of the rack, one for the KS logic, and >one for the UNIBUS box) into a normal powerstrip instead of DEC's? >I don't have the proper plug for the end of the power controller, and this >is what I do for my PDP-11s anyway. Shouldn't be a problem, but the 115V/30A twistlock outlets are available from Home Depot and probably any other place too. The HDs around here changed suppliers a while ago, so their twistlocks went from about $12 to about $20, still not too bad. John Wilson D Bit From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 26 20:57:32 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia Message-ID: <005001c0581e$cc4c27a0$71759a8d@ajp166> From: John Tinker >Guidance computer from Minute Man missle (1961) Whatever you do preserve that one. They were not that common and rare now. It was possible to even make one work useably. I havent hacked one since the early 70s, back then I only had the remotest clue, but it was cool. Allison From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Nov 26 20:57:07 2000 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Christopher Zach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: I have a KS10 now... References: <87k89qmc75.fsf@valhalla.seastrom.com> Message-ID: <3A21CD83.17DFCEE8@alembic.crystel.com> > Actually, you can _just_ get away with plugging it into a 15 amp > circuit if you unscrew the L5-30P and replace it with a 5-15. I used > to do that all the time... I was told by one person that the L5-30 > was for mechanical reasons, not for electrical (L5-20 is kind of > wimpy). True, however I went with the 20 amp plug and wired the room with 4 20 amp circuits @110 volts and 1 30amp at 220 (for the tape truck). Looks like I'll need another 220 for the second TU45 pretty soon. Now onto the interesting thing: After a year of waiting, SETASI finally contacted me about the RP08 drives they sell. Bad news is that they do not support 18 bit transfers... However they DO have a device that basically emulates 8 RS04's using memory. The interesting thought is that it does this by plugging directly into the RH11, in place of the three M5903 interface boards. Now 8mb of storage isn't very interesting, but say 512mb of storage (what, one DIMM?) would be *quite* interesting. Anyone got a manual describing in detal how the RH11 works? This might be the trick to get around the hellish MASSBUS timing issues. Just replace the whole MASSBUS with a small CPU and a big pot of memory... It has been done. And I for one would be quite happy to replace my disk farm of 2 RM03's and 2 RM80's with a single Macintosh DIMM chip. Chris From ncherry at home.net Sun Nov 26 21:09:03 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 Message-ID: <3A21D04F.39F1D8E6@home.net> I think a Vaxstation 4000-60 is capable of running VMS but I want to double check. Can it?  -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 26 21:20:23 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Computer Rescue needed in Portland, OR Message-ID: I'd posted something about this a couple months ago I believe. The time has come for me to dump a bunch of my collection, actually that time is long past. I've decided to concentrate on the portion of the Hobby that I'm most interested in. Namely PDP-11 and VMS systems. I managed to get rid of a bunch of stuff yesterday, but still am needing to get rid of more. I've got a bunch of junk that just needs rescued, I've got other stuff I'm looking for some money for or some Sun or DEC stuff that I can use (fairly modern in other words). These items are marked with a '$'. Now for the bad news, some of this stuff it needs to go by Saturday the 2nd or it goes to the scrapper (and I work evenings). The one positive thing I can say is that I've managed to get most of the good stuff into one of my other two units. Basically I'm trying to avoid paying another month on the third unit (I might actually need to get it out prior to Saturday, I've got to doublecheck on that). Zane RULE1: These systems are for *local pickup* only. I quite simply do not have time to ship stuff. RULE2: Systems sold as is. Various NorthStar Advantage (needs an Operating System) Laser 128 Generic S-100 Bus Chassis $ Kaypro II Bell & Howell Apple ][ 2 broken keys (Have a pile of spare parts including a good keyboard) $ HP Integral PC (1 totally working, 2 partially working, 1 carrying case, 2 expansion chassis, big box of manuals) Mattel Aquarius (Unknown) Ampro Little Board (Unknown) $ Epson PX-8 (think that's the right name) Apple Apple ][ plus Apple ][e (x2) Apple ][e enhanced 3 broken keys Apple ][c (x2) Apple ][gs (x2 1 is a Woz) $ Apple III+ $ Lisa 2/5 Apple Macintosh's Macintosh 512k, third party upgrade to Plus Macintosh SE Macintosh SE/HDFD Macintosh II Macintosh LC Atari $ Atari TT030 Commodore Bussiness Machines Commodore PET (model 4064) Unknown Condition Commodore 64c $ Amiga 2000 (x3 only 1 keyboard, 2 Magni Genlocks, 1084 monitor, misc. other stuff) $ Amiga 3000 (1 fully updated, 1 spare. The updated one includes a Catweasel, Picasso IV, a total of 18MB RAM, and latest rev chips. I will keep this system before I part it out so don't bother asking.) digital $ PDP-11/03 $ PDT-11/150 (Unknown Condition) $ DEC Professional 380 (has VAX console board) DECmate III (3 or 4 of them, Need Software, but that's easily available on the net) DEC Rainbow (Unknown) DECstation 5000/133 (no drives, 32MB RAM, works) IBM PS/2 Model 55SX IBM PC clones Kapro PC IMSAI $ IMSAI 8080 (Rack Mount style, have top/sides for desktop style) Tandy Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer 2 Texas Instruments Silent 700 Data Terminal (two different models) -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vaxman at uswest.net Sun Nov 26 21:21:40 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: How old is this PDP8? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001125195042.02f594c0@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: ROFL!!!!! On Sat, 25 Nov 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > You were lucky! At my house we had to hand magnetize each core donut and > then re-assemble the core mat. > > (with apologies to Monty Python) > --Chuck > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Nov 26 21:42:16 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 Message-ID: <005c01c05825$b61d1f50$71759a8d@ajp166> To: classic Date: Sunday, November 26, 2000 10:29 PM Subject: Vax 4000-60 >I think a Vaxstation 4000-60 is capable of running VMS but I want to >double check. Can it? > Your not serious? ;) VMS is native OS on VAX, that is a VAX. The correct question should be minimum version for device support? I believe it was either V5.4 or 5.6, some one can confirm. The hobbiest version of 7.2 does. Allison From ncherry at home.net Sun Nov 26 22:00:36 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 References: <005c01c05825$b61d1f50$71759a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3A21DC64.121C242A@home.net> ajp166 wrote: > > To: classic > Date: Sunday, November 26, 2000 10:29 PM > Subject: Vax 4000-60 > > >I think a Vaxstation 4000-60 is capable of running VMS but I want to > >double check. Can it? > > > > Your not serious? ;) VMS is native OS on VAX, that is a VAX. > > The correct question should be minimum version for device support? Oh, I thought it was Unix. ;-) Actually I purchased a DECstation 3100 (I wasn't paying attention) and discovered that it didn't run VMS (what did it run? Ultrix?). Eventually I'll get around to making it (the DECstation) a BSD platform. Thanks -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From MRC at Panda.COM Sun Nov 26 22:11:33 2000 From: MRC at Panda.COM (Mark Crispin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: I have a KS10 now... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 18:37:11 -0600 (CST), Daniel Seagraves wrote: > The number is printed on the top rear of the rack, I have a KS10-AA, the > serial number as printed is MRR4469. This is also printed in several > places on stickers affixed to other places in the rack. Ah. You do indeed have KS #4469, but I had a brain fade when comparing it. I have KS #4664. > Will it be unhappy with my if I plug all these 120 AC plugs (I found 3 so > far, one for the fan at the base of the rack, one for the KS logic, and > one for the UNIBUS box) into a normal powerstrip instead of DEC's? Yes, and you only need to provide power for the fan and the KS backplane if you don't need the tape drive or terminals (the CTY and KLINIK are off of the KS backplane). You do have to fix a bug in TOPS-20 to keep it from crashing if no DZs respond. > > Speaking of which, what actually told the RH11 that it was an 18 bit > > transfer? Piddling a specific register? I've got some UC12's around here > > somewhere, it would be simple to test em if I knew which bit to flip. > I have no idea, myself. You'd have to look it up. You have to rewire jumpers on the RH11. Cut some, add others. From bjc at pobox.com Sun Nov 26 22:28:05 2000 From: bjc at pobox.com (Brandon Creighton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 In-Reply-To: <005c01c05825$b61d1f50$71759a8d@ajp166>; from ajp166@bellatlantic.net on Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 10:42:16PM -0500 References: <005c01c05825$b61d1f50$71759a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20001126222805.D1405@pobox.com> On Sun, Nov 26, 2000 at 10:42:16PM -0500, ajp166 wrote: > >I think a Vaxstation 4000-60 is capable of running VMS but I want to > >double check. Can it? > > > > > Your not serious? ;) VMS is native OS on VAX, that is a VAX. > > The correct question should be minimum version for device support? > > I believe it was either V5.4 or 5.6, some one can confirm. The hobbiest > version of 7.2 does. > > Allison My 4000/60 has 5.5 installed on one of its drives, so it's definitely not 5.6.. --bjc From root at bony.umtec.com Sun Nov 26 22:40:09 2000 From: root at bony.umtec.com (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: I have a KS10 now... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, Mark Crispin wrote: > Ah. You do indeed have KS #4469, but I had a brain fade when comparing it. I > have KS #4664. Ah, OK. > Yes, and you only need to provide power for the fan and the KS backplane if > you don't need the tape drive or terminals (the CTY and KLINIK are off of the > KS backplane). You do have to fix a bug in TOPS-20 to keep it from crashing > if no DZs respond. You were right - It didn't like me. I just went downstairs, plugged my VT100 into the CTY port (I set it for 9600 N81 as just a guess), plugged the KS backpanel and it's fan into a 20 amp powerstrip, bridged pins 1 and 3 on the UNIBUS box's DEC power controller plug (to let you turn the box on without the controller at the bottom of the rack - I had to do this trick for awhile to turn on the second BA11 in my 11/44), plugged the UNIBUS in, and let 'er rip. The Mighty-Mite whines at me (but it's not as loud as my 34A whines, it's just there), some LED's above the KS boards light, the POWER light comes on, a light comes on in the bottom of the UNIBUS box, the fans all come on, and the machine just sits there. I checked the serial cable, it's good, and I noticed that if I unplug the Vt100 from the CTY port and push BOOT, the FAULT light comes on. I can clear the light by pushing RESET. The power switch on the frontpanel doesn't do anything, and, if the BOOT or RESET switches are pressed while the CTY is connected, they don't do anything. So obviously it wants either the missing RH11 board (I think I have a spare, I'll check tomorrow) or something inside the power controller. Since I can leave the BA11 off, I'm going to unplug it and pull the board from it's RH11 and shove it in the KS backpanel, and we'll see what happens. "Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT "You'd be surprised what you can live through..." -- Anonymous "...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's his honour that gets passed through his daughters. He can see the best and worst of life in his girls. A daughter is something far too precious, and he'll do anything to protect her." -- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Nov 26 22:38:53 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:05 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 In-Reply-To: <3A21D04F.39F1D8E6@home.net> Message-ID: >I think a Vaxstation 4000-60 is capable of running VMS but I want to >double check. Can it? Yes. In fact until NetBSD was ported it couldn't run anything other than VMS. Any VAX will run VMS, DECstations won't (they're MIPS based and ran Ultrix). Most DEC Alpha's will run VMS (as well as some non-DEC Alpha's), however, with the Alpha certain models were crippled so that you can't run VMS on them (plus you must have supported I/O widgets). Of the crippled Alpha's some can be converted to run VMS (such as my PWS 433a which I've converted into a 433au). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From root at bony.umtec.com Sun Nov 26 22:58:42 2000 From: root at bony.umtec.com (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: I have a KS10 now... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Took the missing RH11 board from the UBA, added it in the KS backplane, and unplugged the UBA. Booted the KS, and I have a KS10> prompt. It wanted 1200 baud N81, if that helps anyone. Now, to see if I have the missing board, get the normal DEC power controller working, and put the skins on the machine so it looks nicer. :P I took pictures of things, as soon as I get to work tomorrow I'll post 'em. "Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT "You'd be surprised what you can live through..." -- Anonymous "...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's his honour that gets passed through his daughters. He can see the best and worst of life in his girls. A daughter is something far too precious, and he'll do anything to protect her." -- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver From root at bony.umtec.com Sun Nov 26 23:18:36 2000 From: root at bony.umtec.com (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: I have a KS10 now... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One last question, and them I'm done for tonight. The Mighty-Mite's whining apparently is an alarm or something - because it will shut itself off after more or less 5 minutes. There are temperature sensors above the cardcage - I've heard you get this sort of misbehaviour if these go bad and continuously tell the PSU that it is over temperature. How can I test for and or eliminate this? The CPU boards aren't getting hot at all. (Not even warm - in fact, the blower air is kinda cold.) "Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT "You'd be surprised what you can live through..." -- Anonymous "...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's his honour that gets passed through his daughters. He can see the best and worst of life in his girls. A daughter is something far too precious, and he'll do anything to protect her." -- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver From jtinker at coin.org Sun Nov 26 23:23:51 2000 From: jtinker at coin.org (John Tinker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia References: <005001c0581e$cc4c27a0$71759a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3A21EFE7.DB7A6515@coin.org> ajp166 wrote: > From: John Tinker > > >Guidance computer from Minute Man missle (1961) > > Whatever you do preserve that one. They were not that common > and rare now. It was possible to even make one work useably. > I havent hacked one since the early 70s, back then I only had > the remotest clue, but it was cool. > > Allison Oops. Well it's a basket case as far as computing goes. I've had it since about '78 and along the way decided I would sell the boards one at a time as souvenirs of the arms race. I pulled the boards, but didn't actually sell any. The gigantic power connecter has been clipped out, because it was so neat all by itself. I still have it, but what a mess. At the University of Iowa, I was told they had one connected to a teletype, and were using two air conditioners to keep it cool. It had something like 10k of 12 bit words on the fixed head harddrive, (the case of which has a warning label about being made of beryllium and therefore not to file or scrape it and breath its dust.) As you know the card cage is cylindrical, and the frame is made of magnesium. I was told that the "stabile platform" -- I guess a gyroscope and a telescope, that once was inside of it cost a quarter million by itself. That part, but not the computer itself was quite secret, so they were removed them before sending them off to the Universities. There is a port in the side of the computer frame for the telescope to be able to look through, totake bearings from stars, I guess. When I bought it for $35, I thought it was a satelite! In a way, I guess it was, sort of, short term, with an orbit intersecting the surface of the earth. In spite of its defunct condition, it still looks kind of neat. I always thought it would make a great coffee table -- with a glass top. Lots of gold plated parts, and every transistor and diode in the whole thing has its own serial number. -- John From MRC at Panda.COM Sun Nov 26 23:33:37 2000 From: MRC at Panda.COM (Mark Crispin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: I have a KS10 now... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:58:42 -0600 (CST), Daniel Seagraves wrote: > It wanted 1200 baud N81, if that helps anyone. You can set dip switches on the console board to change that. > The Mighty-Mite's whining apparently is an alarm or something - because > it will shut itself off after more or less 5 minutes. I've never experienced this, and it doesn't use any external overtemp sensors. It costs several hundred bucks to get one of those Mighty-Mites repaired; it's a lot cheaper to get a replacement from salvage. If you open one of them up, you'll see why; unlike DEC power supplies a Mighty-Mite is a nightmare to repair. From elf at ucsd.edu Mon Nov 27 03:07:18 2000 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Computer Device Teleterm 1030 info? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20001127010718.0097a410@popmail.ucsd.edu> Hello Ernest! Well... I'm just a bit excited here, because I've been looking for one of these for LONG time -- and just the fact that a fellow enthusiast has one is good news to me! ;-) Anyhow -- I'm so gaga over this little machine because it was my first. Yep. Starting around 1979, almost every weekend, I used one of these marvels - when my father would bring it home from work (I'd look forward to Friday's so much -- waiting for the terminal to show up (oh yes, and my father of course ;-) and if there was no terminal for me when dad rolled in at 5pm, well, it was a long 7 days until the following Friday -- sigh.) I used to go through rolls and rolls of thermal paper - I would guess an average of 6-10 rolls from Friday evening when I started pounding on the keys until Sunday night when I had to give it up (actually, I usually sneaked in some more time Monday morning, real early before school.) I would dial up to a local TIP and then connect to machines back at MIT (in the days of I.T.S. and their "tourist" accounts.) I had logins at MIT-AI, DM, MC, and ML. Dialogs would ensue, real time chatting (connect with ^_c I think? I know I had the hardest time figuring out how to produce a control-underscore for some reason), mailing list reading (what were they call again? HUMAN-NETS and SF-LOVERS I believe (?)) This was all real novel for me at the time: I don't want to date myself here (why not Eric? ...) but to a grade school kid - I was doing some unique stuff compared to my peers. I developed quite a group of fellow "tourist" friends, and some MIT student friends -- although the notion of having tourists was not all that popular with some administrators at the LCS. I even visited the lab at MIT a couple times (relatives live in Boston area) and recd the full tour of "545 Tech Square, the 9th floor" (I know - big wow - but for me, at the time, having _never_ used a CRT terminal, it was a chance to experience things such as emacs without having to work your way around it using a thermal paper printout (ugh). I ramble - back to the Teleterm: I don't know what the connectors on the back are - IIRC - I never had to use them. I just jammed the phone headset as hard as I could into the acoustic coupler and kept the ambient noise down. Those inverted-toilet-bowl-plunger designs (er, I mean acoustic-coupler) frustrated me on many occasions. And I have to ask: Any more of these machines available? I've had no luck in finding these at all! :( Finally - I had thought the unit was actually called "Miniterm" as opposed to "Teleterm" -- but since you actually have the unit ... I do have a picture of the Miniterm I had used -- see it at http://home.san.rr.com/instep/miniterm.jpg (BTW - This is my first post to this list - I have been a silent reader for quite some time - and have the usual first-time-poster-jitters. I also want to thank Marvin@rain.org for pointing this list out to me!) Eric > Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 22:49:53 -0800 > From: "Ernest" > Subject: Computer Device Teleterm 1030 info? > I found one of these interesting little devices earlier in the week, and I > can't find any information about it on the net, so I thought that I would > check with you folks to see if anyone knows anything about it? > It by a company called "Computer Device." Do you think they sprained their > brains coming up with that name? I picture some venture capitalist saying, > "Damnit! That's a good one." > It's got an acoustic coupler on the back, a roll of paper behind the > keyboard on the front. It sort of reminds me of a blue Apple II, with the > roll of paper visible behind the keyboard. > It also has a couple of female ports on the back (DB25/DB15) but they are > unmarked. > Any information that anyone could give me on this Teleterm 1030 would be > appreciated. > Thanks > Ernest From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 27 03:00:13 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Computer Device Teleterm 1030 info? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001127010718.0097a410@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Eric wrote: > Finally - I had thought the unit was actually called "Miniterm" as > opposed to "Teleterm" -- but since you actually have the unit ... > I do have a picture of the Miniterm I had used -- see it at > > http://home.san.rr.com/instep/miniterm.jpg Thanks for posting the picture. It jogged my memory and I realize I have one. > > I found one of these interesting little devices earlier in the week, and I > > can't find any information about it on the net, so I thought that I would > > check with you folks to see if anyone knows anything about it? Looks like a basic teletype, and this hypothesis is confirmed by Eric :) > > Any information that anyone could give me on this Teleterm 1030 would be > > appreciated. I'll see if I have a manual with mine. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jate at uwasa.fi Mon Nov 27 06:13:03 2000 From: jate at uwasa.fi (Jarkko Hermanni Teppo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: HP documentation woes Message-ID: <20001127141303.C24161@loisto.uwasa.fi> (This is just griping so feel free to press 'D') Every once in a while I fire up google and try to find out something about HP 9000/500 series. Anyway, today I made two discoveries: 1.) HP doesn't know about HP-UX 5 (or 4) http://www.software.hp.com/HPUX-RDMP/history/slide1.htm but there's HP-UX FOCUS newsletter(s) http://www.software.hp.com/HPUX-RDMP/related/focus/hpfocus.htm sadly not about the FOCUS cpu. 2.) HP journal has completely disappeared. www.hp.com/hpj now returns a 404. Gargh, even Digital, the notorious site "re-organizer" *and* even after being bought by Compaq still has Digital Technical Journal in html, pdf, ps and text. The links maybe broken but at least you can still *get* them. Sorry, I'm just whining as it's too difficult to get any detailed cpu or instruction set manuals for the FOCUS chip and I'm just jealous at all the PDP/VAX-people:) -- jht From russ at rbcs.8m.com Mon Nov 27 06:34:51 2000 From: russ at rbcs.8m.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: FS:PS/2 colro model 25 Message-ID: Have a very good condition PS/2 model 25, type 8525-004, that runs an upgradeable 512k RAM, 8086 processor and built in color monitor. It's got two 720k 3.5" floppies and complete and in very good cosmetic condition. Does not include a keyboard but it takes about any PS/2 connector'd keyboard you can find. I have $7.00 into it. Anyone want one of these for the $7.00 plus UPS or USPS shipping? Remember now that it's ont he heavy side, about 35-45 lbs possibly. Drop me a direct note if interested. Russ Blakeman Clarkson, KY 42726 From ernestls at home.com Mon Nov 27 08:32:02 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Computer Device Teleterm 1030 info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks. I checked it again, and it is labeled as Teleterm 1030. My system looks very different from the one in the picture though. It has a solid (altair)blue front around the keyboard, grey key caps, and grey plastic sides and lid. It also has three dials above the keyboard, labeled "duplex, speed, and power." The speed dial has 100, 150, and 300 options. I checked it for any dates but I couldn't find any without fully disassembling it but it looks fairly old -from the '70's I'm guessing but I'm not sure. Is anyone interested in trading something for this device? I rescued it but I don't really have a use for it. It's untested but it looks like it was treated well. It has a "Washington State House" id tag on it. I'll post a picture of it later today. Ernest >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail >Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 1:00 AM >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Cc: ernestls@home.com >Subject: Re: Computer Device Teleterm 1030 info? > > >On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Eric wrote: > >> Finally - I had thought the unit was actually called "Miniterm" as >> opposed to "Teleterm" -- but since you actually have the unit ... >> I do have a picture of the Miniterm I had used -- see it at >> >> http://home.san.rr.com/instep/miniterm.jpg > >Thanks for posting the picture. It jogged my memory and I realize I have >one. > >> > I found one of these interesting little devices earlier in the >week, and I >> > can't find any information about it on the net, so I thought >that I would >> > check with you folks to see if anyone knows anything about it? > >Looks like a basic teletype, and this hypothesis is confirmed by Eric :) > >> > Any information that anyone could give me on this Teleterm >1030 would be >> > appreciated. > >I'll see if I have a manual with mine. > >Sellam Ismail Vintage >Computer Festival From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Nov 27 08:27:57 2000 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Christopher Zach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: I have a KS10 now... References: Message-ID: <00ef01c0587e$41727e80$161012ac@IBOR> Mark: Hm. Regarding that bug, does T20 blow up immediately when it doesn't find the DZ11's? This might explain why I can't boot the system with the second UBA shut down. I'll check it out tonight. Running the T20 diags is a bit boring :-) Chris From THETechnoid at home.com Mon Nov 27 09:35:22 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 In-Reply-To: <20001126222805.D1405@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20001127152554.YHVJ14040.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> The newest release runs perfectly on the 4000/60. Mine is running Netscape on 7.2b hobbyist. :-) Regards, Jeff In <20001126222805.D1405@pobox.com>, on 11/27/00 at 10:35 AM, Brandon Creighton said: >My 4000/60 has 5.5 installed on one of its drives, so it's >definitely not 5.6.. >--bjc -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From MRC at Panda.COM Mon Nov 27 09:59:12 2000 From: MRC at Panda.COM (Mark Crispin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: I have a KS10 now... In-Reply-To: <00ef01c0587e$41727e80$161012ac@IBOR> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:27:57 -0500, Christopher Zach wrote: > Hm. Regarding that bug, does T20 blow up immediately when it doesn't find > the DZ11's? Yes. But I forget the details of the bug, and a quick look through my sources didn't help my memory. From rivie at teraglobal.com Mon Nov 27 10:24:51 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 In-Reply-To: <005c01c05825$b61d1f50$71759a8d@ajp166> References: <005c01c05825$b61d1f50$71759a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: >I believe it was either V5.4 or 5.6, some one can confirm. The hobbiest >version of 7.2 does. 5.5-2, IIRC. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From ekman at lysator.liu.se Mon Nov 27 10:04:46 2000 From: ekman at lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Too late for the Sords Message-ID: Sorry to have worked up a lot of commotion for nothing, but earlier today I received the news that we are too late to save the Sords. They were thrown in a container and dumped God-knows-where a little more than a week ago. Let us hope that they were at least disassembled and recycled. The guy I spoke with says that there may be a few tape drives left (not Sord CR-5, but other models for Sord's business range). If anyone is interested, contact Claes Borlid directly at +46 (0)31 887613. It grieves my heart that this treasure could not be saved. It is small comfort that even if we had acted faster we would not have been in time. /Fredrik PS. The company did save a few working machines of various models so that they can set up their own museum in the future. Thus, not quite everything was lost forever. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Nov 27 10:59:04 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: KS10 pictures available... Message-ID: <13598905514.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> See http://opobo.umtec.com/pictures/ks10. I'll take more later. I tried taking pictures of the text on the monitor, but it didn't work out. ------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 27 12:32:52 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: How old is this PDP8? In-Reply-To: from "Clint Wolff" at Nov 26, 0 08:21:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 546 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001127/0aeb4f08/attachment.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Nov 27 12:47:56 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: KS10 pictures available... In-Reply-To: <13598905514.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at "Nov 27, 2000 08:59:04 am" Message-ID: <200011271847.eARIluq12511@bg-tc-ppp272.monmouth.com> > See http://opobo.umtec.com/pictures/ks10. > I'll take more later. I tried taking pictures of the text on the monitor, > but it didn't work out. Ah a TU45... A TU45...NOOOOOO!!! Run for your lives. (Bill runs screaming through cinderblock wall frantically waving hands and shaking violently). Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Nov 27 12:52:26 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: KS10 pictures available... In-Reply-To: <200011271847.eARIluq12511@bg-tc-ppp272.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <13598926154.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Scary Scary TU45] What's wrong with TU45s? I'm afraid I missed it. ------- From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Mon Nov 27 13:41:35 2000 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Wanted: MITS/Pertec Extended BASIC Message-ID: Hello all, In the continuing saga of my Icom Attache, I have it up and running, no magic smoke, and I have received the manual from Steve Shepard (THANKS!). However, with only 512 bytes of EPROM on the Turnkey board (TURMON and MBL 1702s), it's a bit limited :-) The monitor can display memory, alter memory, or jump to a memory location. The MBL can load from a cassette tape. That's about it... The manual did note that there are a few versions of BASIC that this machine can run. 8K BASIC is the smallest, and also the most limited. More interesting to me is what they referred to as "Extended BASIC" either on cassette tape, or on a PROM board. Further up the line is DEBI (Disk Extended Basic by Icom), but I have no spare floppy controller for this machine. If anyone has Intel HEX files for the Extended BASIC EPROMs, or Extended BASIC on cassette tape, please let me know... Thanks!! Rich B. (I subscribe only to the digest, so I may not reply immediately...) From ryan at inc.net Mon Nov 27 14:59:05 2000 From: ryan at inc.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: 68k TinyBasic Message-ID: <3A22CB19.8225ECD6@inc.net> Anyone have some experience with TinyBasic for the 68000? I've made a few mods to make it run on my homebrew 68k system, but it gets quirky doing a list, sometimes causes address errors, etc., Trying to debug it, but I would say the internals are "highly optimized", and therefore somewhat hard to follow. I know it's a long shot, TIA, Ryan From vcf at siconic.com Mon Nov 27 14:02:30 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: COSMAC VIP Instruction Manual Message-ID: I have an extra copy of the COSMAC 1802 Instruction Manual (120 pages) that I ran accidentally. I run copies of manuals for folks at $0.25 per page which covers my time and expenses. Since the folks who I ran the other copies for paid for them, it would be unfair to just offer it up for shipping, so if anyone wants it at $30 (postage included) please let me know. I'm embarrassed that it has to cost so much but again it does cover expenses and my time. It took me about 4 hours to run 8 copies of various manuals the other night...way more time than it should have but the copier I was using is finnicky and doesn't do automatic 11x17 double-sided copies, so it was a slightly manual process. Kinko's would charge $0.07 per page, and a double-sided 11x17 page counts as 4 pages, equals $0.21 per page just in copying costs :( Anyway, if you are interested, please contact me directly at . Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Nov 27 16:33:55 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: TU45's In-Reply-To: <13598926154.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at "Nov 27, 2000 10:52:26 am" Message-ID: <200011272233.eARMXtc12908@bg-tc-ppp414.monmouth.com> > [Scary Scary TU45] > > What's wrong with TU45s? I'm afraid I missed it. I've got a long story about the TU45 SUP/SUS TUP/TUS servo adjustments which required three hands (or two hands and your fly open) and a pair of TU45's at Fort Monmouth which caught fire during said servo adjustments. (I was the unfortunate tech who volunteered for TU45 tape training when all the others ran away to hide). The TU45 was damned close to the worst tape drive DEC ever shipped for reliability (my teacher at DEC training said the TU10 was probably a worse design -- his comment was a tape drive designed by the team that brought you the RK05. It was a crew that had no tape experience and one that put the tape head in the location with the highest amount of tape flutter.). The TU45 reengineering set Pertec back years because they supposedly had to strip their engineering talent off the TU77 work that was near completion to get the DEC engineering folks off their butts on the TU45. The TU45 was the first vacuum column design by Pertec and had all the problems of a first design... It was basically a tension arm design which was revamped to use vacuum columns... It had the reliablity and uptime from hell. The 36 bit community and Vax folks found this stopgap drive was keeping them from getting their backups done and was less solid than the TU/TE16's that were slow but reliable. Big KL sites used the TU72 (STC drives)... Small ones had TE/TU16's and TU45's -- DEC pushed TU45->77 swapouts in the field to cut the workload on Field Service on these dogs. --Bill (not a tape specialist -- although I subbed for one often and even got one call on a KL on a TU45 -- which had me have the 36 bit tech run the diags for me...) -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Nov 27 17:31:46 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Wanted: HP Integral PC Message-ID: <20001127173146.R10771@mrbill.net> I saw Zane's post, and sadly, am not close enough to go pick up his Integral and give him some cash... but I *am* looking for one, if anybody has one that they'll part with ( and I WILL pay a reasonable price). I've wanted one ever since I read the review in PC Magazine so long ago... Thanks. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 27 18:03:44 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: First personal computer nostalgia Message-ID: <008a01c058cf$feed8f30$9a779a8d@ajp166> From: John Tinker >Oops. Well it's a basket case as far as computing goes. I've had it >since about '78 and along the way decided I would sell the boards one >at a time as souvenirs of the arms race. I pulled the boards, but >didn't actually sell any. The gigantic power connecter has been >clipped out, because it was so neat all by itself. I still have it, >but what a mess. It all can be put back so it's possible though a real task. Even back when a "fresh" one was a tough to get going. >something like 10k of 12 bit words on the fixed head harddrive, (the >case of which has a warning label about being made of beryllium and >therefore not to file or scrape it and breath its dust.) Be is nasty stuff, still intact it's collecters peice. The one I got to play with was not Be cased. >As you know the card cage is cylindrical, and the frame is made of >magnesium. I was told that the "stabile platform" -- I guess a >gyroscope and a telescope, that once was inside of it cost a quarter I've seen one complete, really neat. Also I've seen one run simple programs. >surface of the earth. In spite of its defunct condition, it still >looks kind of neat. I always thought it would make a great coffee >table -- with a glass top. Lots of gold plated parts, and every >transistor and diode in the whole thing has its own serial number. Excellent way to keep it as it's large. Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 27 19:12:18 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 In-Reply-To: References: <005c01c05825$b61d1f50$71759a8d@ajp166> <005c01c05825$b61d1f50$71759a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001127171030.03089c50@208.226.86.10> At 09:24 AM 11/27/00 -0700, Roger wrote: >>I believe it was either V5.4 or 5.6, some one can confirm. The hobbiest >>version of 7.2 does. > >5.5-2, IIRC. Yup, VMS went 5.5-2 to 6.0, 6.1 then 7.0, 7.1, and 7.2 And at the 5.5-2 to 6.0 transition it changed names to "OpenVMS" I believe the release before 5.0 was 4.4 but I'm not sure. I've got tapes for 4.0, 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 27 20:04:31 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001127180325.02ac8500@208.226.86.10> You can sneeze funny and get 30 gung-ho techies to create a new flavor of Linux but nobody seems to want to work on a Web Browser that can work on classic hardware? (besides Lynx of course :-) --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 27 20:12:40 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001127180325.02ac8500@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Nov 27, 2000 06:04:31 PM Message-ID: <200011280212.SAA32152@shell1.aracnet.com> > You can sneeze funny and get 30 gung-ho techies to create a new flavor of > Linux but nobody seems to want to work on a Web Browser that can work on > classic hardware? (besides Lynx of course :-) > > --Chuck How about just getting a web browser that *works* and is platform independent? (besides Lynx of course :^) Zane From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Nov 27 20:05:54 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis's message of "Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:12:18 -0800" References: <005c01c05825$b61d1f50$71759a8d@ajp166> <005c01c05825$b61d1f50$71759a8d@ajp166> <5.0.0.25.2.20001127171030.03089c50@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <200011280205.eAS25sS27062@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Chuck McManis wrote (about VMS): > I believe the release before 5.0 was 4.4 but I'm not sure. No, it was 4.7. -Frank McConnell From louiss at gate.net Mon Nov 27 20:33:38 2000 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: DaynaFile 2 In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001127171030.03089c50@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <200011280233.VAA113598@shasta.gate.net> Somewhere in this list's musty archives I saw a thread on this subject, but I didn't find the answer to the questions posed. I have those questions, too, so here they are again: Does someone know the voltage of the external power supply (mine is missing); Does someone have the software. I have downloaded the two .hqx files, but they are password protected. Doh! Anyone know how to crack password protection on an .hqx file? Thanks, Louis From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 27 20:40:05 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 Message-ID: <00a801c058e5$0ac4d240$9a779a8d@ajp166> From: Chuck McManis >Yup, VMS went 5.5-2 to 6.0, 6.1 then 7.0, 7.1, and 7.2 You forgot 5.6. >And at the 5.5-2 to 6.0 transition it changed names to "OpenVMS" Nope sooner, V5 was the official start of the OpenVMS name and push. >I believe the release before 5.0 was 4.4 but I'm not sure. I've got tapes >for 4.0, 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3. There was 4.6 and 4.7. I believe ther were some major adds at 4.6 like long file names{if it wasnt that it was another big feature}. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 27 20:52:18 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... Message-ID: <00b701c058e7$2861ed90$9a779a8d@ajp166> From: Chuck McManis >You can sneeze funny and get 30 gung-ho techies to create a new flavor of >Linux but nobody seems to want to work on a Web Browser that can work on >classic hardware? (besides Lynx of course :-) > >--Chuck Simple because it's impossible, they believe that! ;) Of course there's Newdeal Software and they have a small browser that runs pretty light and I think it runs on XTs! Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 27 21:22:23 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: <00b701c058e7$2861ed90$9a779a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Nov 27, 2000 09:52:18 PM Message-ID: <200011280322.TAA04340@shell1.aracnet.com> > Simple because it's impossible, they believe that! ;) > > Of course there's Newdeal Software and they have a small browser that > runs pretty light and I think it runs on XTs! > > Allison I just checked, it does. That's the name of the outfit I've been trying to remember! They're the old Geoworks Ensemble. Basically they look to be the cooliest PC software company! Though they're claim to be for any PC is no longer true since they no longer support the 8086, and haven't for about 3 years, IIRC. http://www.newdealinc.com/ Zane From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Nov 27 21:27:06 2000 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Christopher Zach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Fire up the iron... References: <13598671263.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3A23260A.462E859D@alembic.crystel.com> Ok, it's fall, it's cool, and I can finally start working on AI again. With the cold weather, I can pop open a window instead of fighting a losing battle with an 8,000 BTU AC unit. Quick bit of status: Sitting in my computer room here at the house is: AI (20/20 system, fully loaded with memory, passes all diags) RM03 (Fully operational, need to dust off and purge) RM80 (Operational, however currently unformatted) RM03 (Logic problem in getting the heads to load) TU77 (Doesn't work, why?) TU77 (Spare for parts) I've got a pair of RM02's, a TU45, and an RP07 sitting in storage. The TU45 is a bit of a shambles, maybe with Dan's system as a plate I can diagnose it someday. The RM02's will work on a 20, bit slower than an RM03, but same format. The RP07 is in God knows what kind of shape (the lid for it disintegrated on Interstate 40...). A dream would be to get that drive operational and running as the system disk. Once running, the systems will move to a place where power and AC is not an issue. Till then, they run at my house. The big problem with AI is that the tape MASSBUS is dead. I don't have a clue as to why. Diagnostics are very vague, closest thing I get on the controller is a control bus parity error/8915 bit fiddler error. According to the limited TOPS20 diags, this could be anything. So in order to figure this out, I've spent the evening pulling out the DZ11's, the chaos controller and the Micon Ethernet card. In it's place I have installed a pdp11/23+ for running pdp11 diagnostics on the RH11. Yes, I know: 11/23's are Q-Bus and the RH11 is a Unibus tank. However I've also got a Qunivertor, and it seems to be working (albeit in 18 bit mode). At least I can fire up RSX11/M and begin walkin through tests on the TU77/TM03/RH11. And I don't have to deal with the main CPU, the 18 bit fiddler, etc... Thus my question: Did the tape drives work on AI before it went offline. Somehow I seem to recall that they didn't, and this might be due to a bad RH11 MASSBUS controller (as I have swapped in 2 other TM03 controllers with the same lack o results). CZ From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 27 21:29:12 2000 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... References: <200011280322.TAA04340@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <001f01c058eb$630429f0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 10:22 PM Subject: Re: Why is it that ... > > Simple because it's impossible, they believe that! ;) > > > > Of course there's Newdeal Software and they have a small browser that > > runs pretty light and I think it runs on XTs! > > > > Allison > > I just checked, it does. That's the name of the outfit I've been trying to > remember! They're the old Geoworks Ensemble. > > Basically they look to be the cooliest PC software company! Though they're > claim to be for any PC is no longer true since they no longer support the > 8086, and haven't for about 3 years, IIRC. > > http://www.newdealinc.com/ there's also arachne http://home.arachne.cz/ and Bobcat http://www.fdisk.com/doslynx/bobcat.htm that turn up on a quick search for DOS stuff. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 27 21:50:05 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 In-Reply-To: <00a801c058e5$0ac4d240$9a779a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001127194512.02f3d030@208.226.86.10> At 09:40 PM 11/27/00 -0500, Allison wrote: >You forgot 5.6. When was 5.6 released? > >And at the 5.5-2 to 6.0 transition it changed names to "OpenVMS" > >Nope sooner, V5 was the official start of the OpenVMS name and >push. Far be it from me to argue with a Digit :-), my 5.5-2 disk boots up as VAX/VMS and my 6.0 disk boots up as OPENVMS/VAX. The 5.x ConDist documentation calls it VMS the savesets are VMSxxx and the 6.x ConDist calls it OpenVMS and the savesets are OVMSxxx. However, I don't really know when DEC started pushing VMS as 'OpenVMS' in relationship to what release was shipping. >There was 4.6 and 4.7. I believe ther were some major adds at 4.6 >like long file names{if it wasnt that it was another big feature}. Frank confirms the 4.7. I'd like to find a 5.6 set though, I looked through the SPD on the Compaq site and was trying to figure out what it added relative to 5.5-2. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 27 21:53:51 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 In-Reply-To: <00a801c058e5$0ac4d240$9a779a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001127195228.02942d20@208.226.86.10> At 09:40 PM 11/27/00 -0500, Allison wrote: > >Yup, VMS went 5.5-2 to 6.0, 6.1 then 7.0, 7.1, and 7.2 > >You forgot 5.6. > > >And at the 5.5-2 to 6.0 transition it changed names to "OpenVMS" > >Nope sooner, V5 was the official start of the OpenVMS name and >push. Interesting, a quick scan on the net it appears that most (all) of the change in 5.6 over 5.5-2 was changing the name to OpenVMS. So I guess that pretty much nails that transition. :-) --Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 27 22:05:39 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... Message-ID: <00dc01c058f1$b8e916e0$9a779a8d@ajp166> From: healyzh@aracnet.com >I just checked, it does. That's the name of the outfit I've been trying to >remember! They're the old Geoworks Ensemble. I know, the owner was quoted in the same article I was. >Basically they look to be the cooliest PC software company! Though they're >claim to be for any PC is no longer true since they no longer support the >8086, and haven't for about 3 years, IIRC. Havent checked for a while. When I tried their stuff it worked and was both tiny and fast. Allison From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Nov 27 22:18:50 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: [Fwd: itt tty] Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001127201734.00d25520@agora.rdrop.com> An interesting item spotted on the net in need of rescue. Responses to the original poster (shown below) please. -jim =================================================================== >Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 07:20:43 -0800 >Subject: [Fwd: itt tty] > > >From: "Eric Schweitzer (archy)" >Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers >Subject: itt tty >Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 00:21:46 -0500 > > >A family friend died, and while cleaning out some woodworking stuff, I >noticed an ITT teletype sitting in the garage. I know nothing about its >working condition, and didn't have time to look for a model number or the >like, but it does have a paper tape reader/punch (with some blank tape and >a 1/2 full chad container). His widow thinks it worked when last used, but >that was a while ago. It is free for the pickup, if anyone accessable to >the north shore of Long Island (Nassau County, New York State, U.S.A.) >is interested in it. Otherwise, it will get tossed. > >Email me for contact info. --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From donm at crash.cts.com Tue Nov 28 00:17:14 2000 From: donm at crash.cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: <200011280322.TAA04340@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > Simple because it's impossible, they believe that! ;) > > > > Of course there's Newdeal Software and they have a small browser that > > runs pretty light and I think it runs on XTs! > > > > Allison > > I just checked, it does. That's the name of the outfit I've been trying to > remember! They're the old Geoworks Ensemble. > > Basically they look to be the cooliest PC software company! Though they're > claim to be for any PC is no longer true since they no longer support the > 8086, and haven't for about 3 years, IIRC. > > http://www.newdealinc.com/ > > Zane Zane, is this browser like Arachne (and a few others) in that it has no Java capability? - don From mcr6 at wvi.com Tue Nov 28 00:52:33 2000 From: mcr6 at wvi.com (Dan Britton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: DEC memru cards Message-ID: <3A235630.527C566C@wvi.com> They are for a Digital DecSystem 5000/200 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 28 01:03:49 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: References: <200011280322.TAA04340@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >> http://www.newdealinc.com/ >> >> Zane > >Zane, is this browser like Arachne (and a few others) in that it has no >Java capability? > - don I'm afriad I've no idea, but I would expect that it doesn't. I somehow doubt Java (of any form) would work on a 286 (really don't know though). You bring up a sad point, without Java and Javascript capability, as well as Frames, etc. you're blocked from a lot of the WWW these days :^( Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From agraham at ccat.co.uk Tue Nov 28 03:54:22 2000 From: agraham at ccat.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #440 Message-ID: <00Nov28.095426gmt.46093@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> Zane bashed in on an old teletype: > RULE1: These systems are for *local pickup* only. I quite > simply do not have time to ship stuff. Bugger. > $ Apple III+ > $ Lisa 2/5 > Atari > $ Atari TT030 Dammit, dammit, dammit! Is there anyone local to Zane who a) doesn't want the above and b) has time to ship them to li'l ol' me in the UK on receipt of some $$$? adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the Online Computer Museum (now WITH a working Lisa 2/5 but hell, I'm greedy :o) From djg at drs-esg.com Tue Nov 28 07:35:52 2000 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: RK8E M993 Message-ID: <200011281335.IAA11155@drs-esg.com> >Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:09:31 -0800 (PST) >From: Ethan Dicks > >- --- David Gesswein wrote: >> I thought that the RK8E needed the IC > >Perhaps. I've never owned a working RK8E. > >> and the original cable I am using with my RK8E does have it installed. > >That's pretty suggestive. OTOH, perhaps that's there for RK01/RK03 >compatibility? (Just a WAG) > I have looked further. The IC etc seems to just buffer the Omnibus power ok signal to drive the RK05 power good. The later card just connects them. I tried a C card without the IC in my computer and seemed to work fine. (Watch out, the red stripe was not on the pin 1 side of my C versions of the cable) Looks like any M993 may work fine but I didn't try to track down how the RK05 generates it's DC low or if it changed between versions. I have put pictures of the boards at http://www.pdp8.net/rk05/rk05.shtml >> The RK8E (with M993C) and RK05 schematics are on my web site > >Roger. As I said, though, I have a set, too. > I was trying to go back in the archive and see what had been said (I think my memory refresh failed awhile ago) but I can't find a working archive. The www.classiccmp.org seems to stopped in August. www.retrobytes.org seems to also stopped in August and was putting everything in April. Does anybody know of a good archive? David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Old computers with blinkenlights From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 28 07:54:27 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB35F@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > Well, my experience seems to suggest that Apple _never_ followed accepted > hardware standards, particularly with respect to connectors. Even their > first serial card for the Apple ][ was wired as a DCE (and not a DTE > which just about every other computer that I've come across is). > > I'm trying to think of any interface on the Mac that is in any sense > 'standard'. And no, I can't think of one... Well, I'd posit that Apple _set_ standards instead of following them. For example, Apple's use of a DB-25 for a SCSI port and the pinout they chose has been copied widely throughout the industry. More conventionally, the serial ports follow normal pinouts, even though they're electrically RS-422 instead of RS-232C. In 1984, there wasn't any kind of a standard in place yet for a mouse interface. And as someone else pointed out, Mac power cords fit just about any computer device from the PC era forwards. regards, -dq From kebabthesheep at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 08:00:13 2000 From: kebabthesheep at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?kebabthesheep?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: MAPLIN 8255 card still available Message-ID: <20001128140013.29999.qmail@web1611.mail.yahoo.com> They might not be in the catalogue - but I bought one on saturday, for 25 of our english pounds, from the one in Southampton, and slapped it togeather in a couple of minutes. Still doesn't come with a backplate - i'll have to make one up, next time i'm near a metal shop. I daren't put it in my PC - the card's such a loose fit in the slot being 8-bit isa :( Ho hum, three rail eprom dumper here we come :) Dave. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Nov 28 09:03:01 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: PDP 11/45 in ieed of rescue: Prince George, CANADA Message-ID: Combination of procrastination and lack of resources has put this one in danger. PDP 11/45 system with a terminal or two is in danger of ending up on the scrap in a very few days. I've been trying to find a way to get up there to get it, but it is just not working out. If anyone in the area is interested, or should just happen to be coming this way and would not mind picking up a hitch hiking computer, please contact me for details. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From pete at atc.creative.com Tue Nov 28 09:51:03 2000 From: pete at atc.creative.com (Peter Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Wanted: HP Integral PC References: <20001127173146.R10771@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <3A23D467.D7E41A79@atc.creative.com> Bill, I have one that I can part with. The floppy drive is bad though, so I have been meaning to replace it. Also, it could do with more memory (if anyone has extra, please let me know). Does anyone know of a source for replacement drives? The original ones seem really fragile as almost all that I see have broken heads. Also, check out my Integral site (http://www.coho.org/~pete/IPC/integral.html). It has information about the Integral and software to download. -Pete Bill Bradford wrote: > > I saw Zane's post, and sadly, am not close enough to go pick up > his Integral and give him some cash... but I *am* looking for one, > if anybody has one that they'll part with ( and I WILL pay a reasonable > price). I've wanted one ever since I read the review in PC Magazine so > long ago... > > Thanks. > > Bill > > -- > Bill Bradford > mrbill@mrbill.net > Austin, TX From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 28 10:03:00 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: DaynaFile 2 In-Reply-To: <200011280233.VAA113598@shasta.gate.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001127171030.03089c50@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001128100211.031df580@pc> At 09:33 PM 11/27/00 -0500, Louis Schulman wrote: >Does someone have the software. I have downloaded the two >.hqx files, but they are password protected. Doh! Anyone >know how to crack password protection on an .hqx file? Passwords on BinHex files? I've never heard of that. BinHex is similar to 'uuencode', just a binary to ASCII conversion. How did you attempt to open them? - John From rivie at teraglobal.com Tue Nov 28 10:10:28 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001127171030.03089c50@208.226.86.10> References: <005c01c05825$b61d1f50$71759a8d@ajp166> <005c01c05825$b61d1f50$71759a8d@ajp166> <5.0.0.25.2.20001127171030.03089c50@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: >At 09:24 AM 11/27/00 -0700, Roger wrote: >>>I believe it was either V5.4 or 5.6, some one can confirm. The hobbiest >>>version of 7.2 does. >> >>5.5-2, IIRC. > > >Yup, VMS went 5.5-2 to 6.0, 6.1 then 7.0, 7.1, and 7.2 > >And at the 5.5-2 to 6.0 transition it changed names to "OpenVMS" >I believe the release before 5.0 was 4.4 but I'm not sure. I've got >tapes for 4.0, 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3. I know 4.7 was out before 5.0, but I don't know if there was anything between them; I went from 4.5 to 5.0 and only encountered 4.7 on a used "MicroVAX 8000" (a VAXstation 8000 without the graphics stuff) that I acquired from E&S. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Nov 28 10:53:35 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB35F@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> from Douglas Quebbeman at "Nov 28, 2000 08:54:27 am" Message-ID: <200011281653.IAA03239@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Well, I'd posit that Apple _set_ standards instead of following them. > > For example, Apple's use of a DB-25 for a SCSI port and the pinout > they chose has been copied widely throughout the industry. Try to plug in a device with the Future Domain pinout. I don't know which came first, I just know that they are incompatible to the point of releasing the majic smoke. > More conventionally, the serial ports follow normal pinouts, even > though they're electrically RS-422 instead of RS-232C. The "normal pinouts" were defined by Apple. Other systems used different pinouts on the same Mini-DIN connector (Epson PX-8, for example). Eric From vcf at siconic.com Tue Nov 28 10:39:49 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 60 ready to retire Message-ID: If someone is interested in this machine, please contact the original sender directly. Reply-to: drawling@ix.netcom.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 12:48:56 -0800 From: Micael mcQuade Subject: Donation of IBM PS2 November 26, 2000 Hey Guys, I have been looking for a home for my old IBM PS/2 Model 60. It is in original 1988 condition and has Microchannel, 80286 10 MHz Chip, 44 MB Hard Drive with AST 3 MB RAM Board. Currently it runs with Windows 3.1 and DOS 4.01, Word for Windows and Excel for Windows Version 1. I want it to have a "loving home" and useful afterlife as I have been loathe to part with it out of purely sentimental reasons. I will include all software and the original "Reference Diskette" etc. I probably have other vintage memorabilia as well to add. Any IBM-philes will appreciate the elegant Microchannel Architecture which was way ahead of its time! Please let me know if this donation is of interest to you and to where and whom I may ship it. Denise Rawlings I can be reached by email at drawling@ix.netcom.com. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Nov 28 12:09:45 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:06 2005 Subject: Fire up the iron... In-Reply-To: <3A23260A.462E859D@alembic.crystel.com> from Christopher Zach at "Nov 27, 2000 10:27:06 pm" Message-ID: <200011281809.eASI9jA00725@bg-tc-ppp364.monmouth.com> > The big problem with AI is that the tape MASSBUS is dead. I don't have a > clue as to why. Diagnostics are very vague, closest thing I get on the > controller is a control bus parity error/8915 bit fiddler error. > According to the limited TOPS20 diags, this could be anything. > > CZ First -- this is a couple of points on quick and dirty massbuss troubleshooting. There are a number of problems that can cause MCPE (Massbuss Control Parity Errors)... The first thing is -- bad round bus cable with a bent pin and bad contact. The second can be bad flat cables from the three massbus transceivers which also can have backplane seeting problems -- the double height cards wiggle a lot. (common in TM03's and RPxx DCL's). It also could be the 8915 bit fiddler -- but the failure sounds like the equivalent of the TM03 wrap the world data wrap through the controller. --Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 28 12:33:35 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB35F@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Nov 28, 0 08:54:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1264 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001128/0a005199/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 28 12:43:40 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: <200011280212.SAA32152@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20001127180325.02ac8500@208.226.86.10> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001128123957.02fe6100@pc> At 06:12 PM 11/27/00 -0800, you wrote: >How about just getting a web browser that *works* and is platform >independent? (besides Lynx of course :^) Actually, the problem is in web sites, not browsers. How about web sites that don't require 500K Flash downloads for the introductory commercial *before* you get into the actual site, or 500K Shockwave games, or MIDI background music, or Java doing who knows what, or JavaScript monkey business. My fully-loaded Netscrape crashes once or twice a day... one way to make it go boom is to scroll a window while another window attempts to load Java for the first time. - John From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 28 12:58:58 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB360@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > > > I'm trying to think of any interface on the Mac that is in any sense > > > 'standard'. And no, I can't think of one... > > > > Well, I'd posit that Apple _set_ standards instead of following them. > > Even when there were already perfectly good standards to use... > > > For example, Apple's use of a DB-25 for a SCSI port and the pinout > > they chose has been copied widely throughout the industry. > > YEs, but the 50 pin SCSI standards have the advantage that there's a > ground wire between the signal wires if you use stnadard ribbon cable. > That's _why_ a 50 pin connector was originally chosen. The DB25 is thus > technically inferior.... Depends on how long your cable needs to be. I've got a hard drive with a 6-inch SCSI cable, and at lengths that short, you really don't need the extra ground lines, unless you'be in a *really* noisy RF environment. OTOH, if you really need to run long SCSI cables, having the extra ground lines isn't really enough; in that sense, single-ended SCSI is technically inferior to differential SCSI. > > More conventionally, the serial ports follow normal pinouts, even > > though they're electrically RS-422 instead of RS-232C. > > Eh? The Mac serial ports are 8 pin Mini-DIN on almost all Macs I've seen. > That was not a standard at the time, and is only a de-facto standard now. > > The original Mac and Mac 512k used DE9 seiral ports, with a pinout > different to everyone else (and yes, there _were_ 9 pin serial ports > about when the Mac was introduced). Until I started working here, I'd seen more 128k, 512k, and 512KE Macs than any other models. YMMV, etc. > > And as someone else pointed out, Mac power cords fit just about > > any computer device from the PC era forwards. > > And just about any other electronic device... Well, my old Sony reel-to-reel uses a cord that appears as if it's compatible with my old waffle iron and coffee percolator. ;-) -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 28 13:01:18 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB361@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > > Well, I'd posit that Apple _set_ standards instead of following them. > > > > For example, Apple's use of a DB-25 for a SCSI port and the pinout > > they chose has been copied widely throughout the industry. > > Try to plug in a device with the Future Domain pinout. I don't know > which came first, I just know that they are incompatible to the point > of releasing the majic smoke. How strange! I have a Future Domain SCSI card (850-MEX?) that uses exactly the Apple pinout, and even carries a sticker on the rear bezel stating same! > > More conventionally, the serial ports follow normal pinouts, even > > though they're electrically RS-422 instead of RS-232C. > > The "normal pinouts" were defined by Apple. Other systems used different > pinouts on the same Mini-DIN connector (Epson PX-8, for example). As Tony caught, I had been referring to the DB-9 serial ports on the 128k, 512k, and 512ke Macs. I started early... regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 28 13:02:41 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: DaynaFile 2 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB362@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > At 09:33 PM 11/27/00 -0500, Louis Schulman wrote: > >Does someone have the software. I have downloaded the two > >.hqx files, but they are password protected. Doh! Anyone > >know how to crack password protection on an .hqx file? Is the DaynaFile 2 the 5 1/4 inch external floppy drive for a Mac that reads PC floppies? If so, I think I've got the software somewhere (got the drive, at least)... -dq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 28 13:09:07 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB361@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Nov 28, 0 02:01:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 568 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001128/18680841/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Nov 28 14:20:24 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Wanted: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <3A23D467.D7E41A79@atc.creative.com> References: <20001127173146.R10771@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001128152024.323fb802@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:51 AM 11/28/00 -0800, Peter wrote: >Bill, > >I have one that I can part with. The floppy drive is bad though, so I >have been meaning to replace it. Also, it could do with more memory (if >anyone has extra, please let me know). Does anyone know of a source for >replacement drives? The original ones seem really fragile as almost all >that I see have broken heads. This has been discussed here several times before. The HP double sided floppy drives are notorious for this. The grease on the mechanism gets stiff and the drive doesn't open all the way. That causes the top head to catch on the floppy disks. If you insert a disk with the drive like that, I can just about guarantee that you'll catch the top head and tear it loose. If you then try to use a disk in that drive, you'll damage the media on it. ANYTIME you use a double sided HP floppy drive, you should watch for problems with it not opening all the way. If you catch the problem in time, you can remove the drive and clean off the old grease and regrease the drive and it will be fine. I use alcohol or spray tuner cleaner or something like that to clean the old grease off and then apply a good qualtity gun grease that won't get gummy with age. I haven't tried it yet but I think you can rob a DS floppy drive out of an external HP disk drive and use it to replace the one in the IPC. External drives like the HP 9122 or 9123 floppy drives or the HP 7957 or 9153 etc combination hard drive/floppy drives aren't too hard to find in scrap places. > >Also, check out my Integral site >(http://www.coho.org/~pete/IPC/integral.html). It has information about >the Integral and software to download. Nice web page. I've been intending to put one up for the IPC and some the other HP computers but I haven't had the time. I have 8 IPCs at the moment, they're one of my favorites. Joe > >-Pete > >Bill Bradford wrote: >> >> I saw Zane's post, and sadly, am not close enough to go pick up >> his Integral and give him some cash... but I *am* looking for one, >> if anybody has one that they'll part with ( and I WILL pay a reasonable >> price). I've wanted one ever since I read the review in PC Magazine so >> long ago... >> >> Thanks. >> >> Bill >> >> -- >> Bill Bradford >> mrbill@mrbill.net >> Austin, TX > From bill_r at inetnebr.com Tue Nov 28 13:59:46 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: EBCDIC to ASCII Utility for DOS/Win? Message-ID: Don't let me scare anyone, but this question is actually for _work_. :-) The mainframe guys asked me if I knew of any utilities for translating from EBCDIC to ASCII on a DOS or Windows PC, as they have a user who keeps getting big (12MB) data dumps from another company in EBCDIC, and they're getting tired up uploading it to the mainframe and back down just to get the EBCDIC->ASCII translation done. Any suggestions? Web searching has turned up very little of interest. Bill Richman bill_r@inetnebr.com http://incolor.inetnebr.com Home of Fun with Molten Metal, technological oddities, and the original COSMAC Elf computer simulator! From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Nov 28 14:08:26 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB361@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> from Douglas Quebbeman at "Nov 28, 2000 02:01:18 pm" Message-ID: <200011282008.MAA06842@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > Try to plug in a device with the Future Domain pinout. I don't know > > which came first, I just know that they are incompatible to the point > > of releasing the majic smoke. > > How strange! I have a Future Domain SCSI card (850-MEX?) that uses > exactly the Apple pinout, and even carries a sticker on the rear > bezel stating same! The fact that there was an earlier Future Domain SCSI pinout is exactly why there is a sticker pointing out the the newer card has the Apple pinout. If there weren't another possibility, there wouldn't have been a need for the sticker. For example the TMC-850 has the Future Domain pinout and the TMC-850M has the Apple pinout. I think it's pretty much the same for other models, an M in the model number means Apple SCSI. Here's the Future Domain Pinout ___________________ | SCSI | | | SIGNAL| DB-25S | +-----------------+ DB-25S (female) | -DB(0)| 14 | _____________________________ | -DB(1)| 2 | 13\ o o o o o o o o o o o o o /1 | -DB(2)| 15 | 25\ o o o o o o o o o o o o /14 | -DB(3)| 3 | ------------------------ | -DB(4)| 16 | View from rear of computer. | -DB(5)| 4 | | -DB(6)| 17 | | -DB(7)| 5 | | -DB(P)| 18 | | GND |1,6,8,13 | | GND |13,19,25 | | -ATN | 20 | | BSY | 23 | | -ACK | 22 | | -RST | 10 | | -MSG | 21 | | -SEL | 7 | | -C/D | 11 | | -REQ | 24 | | -I/O | 12 | +-----------------+ Pin 9 is NOT CONNECTED Here's the Mac Pinout ___________________ | SCSI | | | SIGNAL| DB-25S | +-----------------+ DB-25S (female) | -DB(0)| 8 | _____________________________ | -DB(1)| 21 | 13\ o o o o o o o o o o o o o /1 | -DB(2)| 22 | 25\ o o o o o o o o o o o o /14 | -DB(3)| 10 | ------------------------ | -DB(4)| 23 | View from rear of computer. | -DB(5)| 11 | | -DB(6)| 12 | | -DB(7)| 13 | | -DB(P)| 20 | | GND | 7,9,14 | | GND |16,18,24 | | -ATN | 17 | | BSY | 6 | | -ACK | 5 | | -RST | 4 | | -MSG | 2 | | -SEL | 19 | | -C/D | 15 | | -REQ | 1 | | -I/O | 3 | +-----------------+ Pin 25 is NOT CONNECTED in the Mac Plus implementation. Newer Macs connect TERMPWR to pin 25, but are otherwise the same. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 28 14:18:01 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Archiving Amiga floppies Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001128141204.03033790@pc> I'd like to archive my massive collection of Amiga floppies. I have tubs and tubs of them. I'd like to end up with CD-Rs of them, containing disk images accessible under emulation or that could re-create floppies on demand. I'm so out of touch with what's possible on the Amiga, I don't know which tool would best handle the job. Considerations in mind include reasonable handling of bad sectors or other sorts of semi-readable floppies. I doubt I have much that's actually copy-protected. It would be great to be able to get directory listings of these disk images, so I could create a master list of all the files there. My A2000/040 is still up and running, and I even have an Ethernet card capable of running NFS, so I can save files directly to my PC's drive (running an NFS server.) >From there I can burn CDs. (Historical note: back in 1993, I even created ISO images on an Amiga, saved them to Exabyte, and had them burned to real glass-master pressed CDs.) - John From BobMcPhail at aol.com Tue Nov 28 14:34:19 2000 From: BobMcPhail at aol.com (BobMcPhail@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Looking for Videobrain system Message-ID: <74.54dbdb6.275570cb@aol.com> I am looking for a working Videobrain system with software. If anyone has one available for sale or has any leads, I would really appreciate hearing about it. Thank you. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 28 14:13:17 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Wanted: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001128152024.323fb802@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Nov 28, 0 03:20:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4562 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001128/45123115/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 28 15:01:06 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) In-Reply-To: <200011282008.MAA06842@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at Nov 28, 0 12:08:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1324 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001128/8fd26990/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Tue Nov 28 15:56:10 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Looking for Videobrain system In-Reply-To: <74.54dbdb6.275570cb@aol.com> Message-ID: <200011282156.NAA19254@civic.hal.com> BobMcPhail@aol.com wrote: > I am looking for a working Videobrain system with software. If anyone has one > available for sale or has any leads, I would really appreciate hearing about > it. Thank you. > > Hi Bob I have a VideoBrain but it is partly taken apart. It was working when I took the cover off but that was years ago. I have some cartridges for it as well. Some day I hope to figure out how to write assembly code for it but I have a lot of projects that are higher on my list. This was an ill fated machine. The company wasn't able to get a BASIC up and running before the market moved on. I'm not sure but I think it is suppose to be based on the F8 processor. This makes it an interesting collectible. I'd enjoy hearing what others have to tell about this machine. Dwight From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Nov 28 16:05:23 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: 10base2 / 10baseT (again) Message-ID: <20001128220523.76642.qmail@web9503.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > Can you name one other system (not a Mac 128 or Mac512 varient) that has > the same pinout for a DE9 serial port? Because I sure can't think of one. I have two _peripherals_ that do - an ISA AppleTalk card (third party) and an Asante AppleTalk<->Ethernet bridge. I am not aware of any non-Mac-compatible/non-AppleTalk devices that use that particular (semi-)standard. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From pete at atc.creative.com Tue Nov 28 16:06:14 2000 From: pete at atc.creative.com (Peter Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Wanted: HP Integral PC References: Message-ID: <3A242C56.FE95DB53@atc.creative.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I thought the 9153 used the half-height drive with the 34 pin connector. > I've never pulled one apart, but I have the 9154 (same unit _without the > floppy drive_) on my HP150-II and it certainly appears that such a drive > would drop in. > > A 9133 uses the full-height drive that we've been discussing, though. As > does the 9114A HPIL drive. Tony, I believe that you are right about the 9154. That brings to mind another question about that drive. My 9154 has a half height 3.5" Sony drive with the 34 pin connector. However, there is no power connector for the floppy. Other Sony floppies that I have seen have the 34 pin connector and an extra 4 wire power connector. Can I use other floppies on the HP drive? I tried one last night and the 9154 would not even power on with a standard Sony floppy (the fan would not even come on). On a related note, the hard disks in the 9154 are supposed to be 20MB 3.5" SCSI drives, but they use a smaller connector that I am not familiar with, and again no power connector. Is there some standard for SCSI that came before the normal SCSI-1 type connector or did HP do some proprietary type of connector? Thanks, -Pete -- Pete Johnson pete@atc.creative.com Creative Advanced Technology Center (831) 438-5331 x111 269 Mt. Hermon Rd. Suite 101 (831) 438-8509 FAX Scotts Valley, CA 95066 (831) 251-5331 Cell From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 28 16:30:09 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Wanted: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <3A242C56.FE95DB53@atc.creative.com> from "Peter Johnson" at Nov 28, 0 02:06:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1620 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001128/9663ad8c/attachment.ksh From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Nov 28 16:36:10 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: EBCDIC to ASCII Utility for DOS/Win? In-Reply-To: "from Bill Richman at Nov 28, 2000 01:59:46 pm" Message-ID: <200011282236.QAA20736@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > Don't let me scare anyone, but this question is actually for _work_. Good. My outside consulting rate is $200/Hr. > :-) The mainframe guys asked me if I knew of any utilities for > translating from EBCDIC to ASCII on a DOS or Windows PC, as they have > a user who keeps getting big (12MB) data dumps from another company in > EBCDIC, and they're getting tired up uploading it to the mainframe and > back down just to get the EBCDIC->ASCII translation done. Any > suggestions? Web searching has turned up very little of interest. Well, there appear to be lots of such utilities listed on the web, surely one of them would get the job done. There are editors that can also translate EBCDIC, and several DOS based text translators. For example, at: http://www.bookcase.com/library/software/msdos.util.text.html There are several DOS programs that might do the trick: CTRANS, EBC2ASC, EBCDIC, TOADEBC. -Lawrence LeMay From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Nov 28 16:38:40 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: EBCDIC to ASCII Utility for DOS/Win? In-Reply-To: from Bill Richman at "Nov 28, 2000 01:59:46 pm" Message-ID: <200011282238.eASMceM01270@bg-tc-ppp364.monmouth.com> > Don't let me scare anyone, but this question is actually for _work_. > :-) The mainframe guys asked me if I knew of any utilities for > translating from EBCDIC to ASCII on a DOS or Windows PC, as they have > a user who keeps getting big (12MB) data dumps from another company in > EBCDIC, and they're getting tired up uploading it to the mainframe and > back down just to get the EBCDIC->ASCII translation done. Any > suggestions? Web searching has turned up very little of interest. > > > Bill Richman > bill_r@inetnebr.com > http://incolor.inetnebr.com The MKS Toolkit (I've still got the older dos versions...) has the Unix dd utility ported to DOS/Windows. There may be public domain ports as well... The Linux and BSD folks all have the source code in C available if you've got a C coder willing to cobble them together on DOS. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Nov 28 17:37:17 2000 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: EBCDIC to ASCII Utility for DOS/Win? In-Reply-To: <200011282236.QAA20736@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from Lawrence LeMay at "Nov 28, 0 04:36:10 pm" Message-ID: <200011282337.PAA13112@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Don't let me scare anyone, but this question is actually for _work_. > Good. My outside consulting rate is $200/Hr. Ludicrously overpriced. I'll do it for $150/h. ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my personalities each need therapy." ----- From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 28 17:51:54 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: EBCDIC to ASCII Utility for DOS/Win? References: <200011282337.PAA13112@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <005901c05996$2fcffc20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> 'ey! Wazzamadda you? Ainnayougoddanufabruises? Da boyza tella me deysa breakkayou face anna you leggsa too iffa you donna stoppa cuttin' da prices! $195's low enuff! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 4:37 PM Subject: Re: EBCDIC to ASCII Utility for DOS/Win? > > > Don't let me scare anyone, but this question is actually for _work_. > > > Good. My outside consulting rate is $200/Hr. > > Ludicrously overpriced. I'll do it for $150/h. > > ;-) > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my personalities each need therapy." ----- > > From ss at allegro.com Tue Nov 28 17:58:38 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: EBCDIC to ASCII Utility for DOS/Win? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3A23D62E.13988.11F0824@localhost> Re: > :-) The mainframe guys asked me if I knew of any utilities for > translating from EBCDIC to ASCII on a DOS or Windows PC, as they have > a user who keeps getting big (12MB) data dumps from another company in > EBCDIC, and they're getting tired up uploading it to the mainframe and > back down just to get the EBCDIC->ASCII translation done. Any > suggestions? Web searching has turned up very little of interest. UltraEdit-32 has an EBCDIC <-> ASCII translation capability (File:Conversions:...) http://www.idmcomp.com It's one of the few programs I've purchased for my own use at work. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 28 18:05:33 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: DECserver 200 Message-ID: <432.368T1650T655483optimus@canit.se> At the user group today, I was intrigued by a pretty little DEC box called a "DECserver 200MC" (or MX?). It's got a very anonymous front panel, whereas the back is fitted out with 8 DB25 ports, into which some RS232->MJ11 (or whatever that modular DEC serial port is called) converters are plugged. There is also an AUI port. Is it a terminal server of some kind? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Hackers do it with fewer instructions. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Nov 28 16:19:42 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: DECserver 200 In-Reply-To: <432.368T1650T655483optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001128161835.02681d58@208.226.86.10> At 01:05 AM 11/29/2000 +0100, you wrote: >Is it a terminal server of some kind? Exactly right. I've got it on my list to try to boot one from my VMS system. It will probably be the interactive part of the TinyCluster. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 28 18:33:53 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: DECserver 200 In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20001128161835.02681d58@208.226.86.10> from "Chuck McManis" at Nov 28, 2000 04:19:42 PM Message-ID: <200011290033.QAA26294@shell1.aracnet.com> > At 01:05 AM 11/29/2000 +0100, you wrote: > >Is it a terminal server of some kind? > > > Exactly right. I've got it on my list to try to boot one from my VMS > system. It will probably be the interactive part of the TinyCluster. > > --Chuck You're not the only one with it on your todo list. I've got one I need to get up and running since as I understand it, it can do Reverse LAT, and act as a Console Server. I *NEED* a console server! For anyone that's wondering (I know Chuck knows) the software is on the just about any VAX or Alpha VMS ConDist. Zane From donm at crash.cts.com Tue Nov 28 18:54:46 2000 From: donm at crash.cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: DaynaFile 2 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001128100211.031df580@pc> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, John Foust wrote: > At 09:33 PM 11/27/00 -0500, Louis Schulman wrote: > >Does someone have the software. I have downloaded the two > >.hqx files, but they are password protected. Doh! Anyone > >know how to crack password protection on an .hqx file? > > Passwords on BinHex files? I've never heard of that. > BinHex is similar to 'uuencode', just a binary to ASCII > conversion. How did you attempt to open them? John, the 'q' in the extension suggests a 'squeezed' file, and while I am not aware of a password scheme for squeeze programs, that does not prove that there were not some. Louis, I would take a crack at it with the Carson Wilson program CFX and see what it does. - don From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 28 21:16:25 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... Message-ID: <004501c059b3$0a1dd840$a2769a8d@ajp166> From: Zane H. Healy >You bring up a sad point, without Java and Javascript capability, as well >as Frames, etc. you're blocked from a lot of the WWW these days :^( > > Zane Yes the lack of JAVA, frames, no cookies and Activex stuff does limits sites available and more every day. I'd think JAVA would not be that bad on a smaller CPU tough it may be slow. After all it's not that much different than running UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code on z80 or 6502! Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 28 21:11:17 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 Message-ID: <004401c059b3$07effbc0$a2769a8d@ajp166> From: Chuck McManis >Far be it from me to argue with a Digit :-), my 5.5-2 disk boots up as ;) I started at DEC when REX and MILLRAT were running V3.1 and got the watch the progression of versions from there through V5.5-4. >VAX/VMS and my 6.0 disk boots up as OPENVMS/VAX. The 5.x ConDist >documentation calls it VMS the savesets are VMSxxx and the 6.x ConDist The open was added around the time of the compaq merger. the sales and other external peripheria started using OpenVMS to counter the idea that VMS was a sealed OS, anyone with internals training or a complete knew that VMS was as open as could be had without giving the code away. The idea had to be sold as really closed OSs were well known then (early 90s) as IBM. >calls it OpenVMS and the savesets are OVMSxxx. However, I don't really know >when DEC started pushing VMS as 'OpenVMS' in relationship to what release >was shipping. True, and 7.2 calls the various DEC$whatits still too. >Frank confirms the 4.7. I'd like to find a 5.6 set though, I looked through >the SPD on the Compaq site and was trying to figure out what it added >relative to 5.5-2. No idea. I have 5.5-4 one one disk still. The usual release rules were Even numbers were feature adds 5.2, 5.4 and the odd ones were bug fixes and small features. By V4 though that was starting to get very munged. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Nov 28 21:23:12 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Classic monochrome phosphors? Message-ID: <001128222312.202006a3@trailing-edge.com> Through the 80's and up into the early (Lasnerian) 90's, it was common to see monochrome video displays with *long* decay-time phosphors. As in hundreds of milliseconds, enough such that if you were a quick typist the cursor block left a very distinct trail going back a good fraction of a line :-) Does anyone know the designation (as in "P3" or "P25") of these long-lived green and yellow phosphors that were commonly used on IBM PC and PC-clone monochrome displays? Even better, anyone know of a source (new or used, preferably NTSC or Monochrome SVGA) for such monitors? Tim. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 28 21:49:13 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 In-Reply-To: <004401c059b3$07effbc0$a2769a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Nov 28, 2000 10:11:17 PM Message-ID: <200011290349.TAA07365@shell1.aracnet.com> > The open was added around the time of the compaq merger. the sales and > other external peripheria started using OpenVMS to counter the idea that > VMS was a sealed OS, anyone with internals training or a complete knew > that VMS was as open as could be had without giving the code away. > The idea had to be sold as really closed OSs were well known then > (early 90s) as IBM. Huh? The Open was added around the 6.0/6.1 timeframe. The Compaq merger was during the 7.2eft timeframe. I'd thought the namechange was a combination of emphasising it's openess, but largly a reaction to the fact they now had VMS running on both VAX and Alpha. Zane From rws at enteract.com Tue Nov 28 21:57:14 2000 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Classic monochrome phosphors? In-Reply-To: <001128222312.202006a3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > Does anyone know the designation (as in "P3" or "P25") of these long-lived > green and yellow phosphors that were commonly used on IBM PC and PC-clone > monochrome displays? Even better, anyone know of a source (new or used, According to the IBM PC Technical Reference, page 1-131, the IBM Monochrome Display uses a high-persistence green phosphor of type P 39. Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 28 22:34:05 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 Message-ID: <002701c059bd$a88bd040$a2769a8d@ajp166> From: healyzh@aracnet.com >> The open was added around the time of the compaq merger. the sales and >> other external peripheria started using OpenVMS to counter the idea that >> VMS was a sealed OS, anyone with internals training or a complete knew >> that VMS was as open as could be had without giving the code away. >> The idea had to be sold as really closed OSs were well known then >> (early 90s) as IBM. > >Huh? The Open was added around the 6.0/6.1 timeframe. The Compaq merger >was during the 7.2eft timeframe. I'd thought the namechange was a >combination of emphasising it's openess, but largly a reaction to the fact >they now had VMS running on both VAX and Alpha. > > Zane No! The Alpha was a year after OpenVMS was started in references. I was seeingit internally back in '91, the alpha was a bit later. The OS itself was to change internal and external names much later. The compaq merger was earlier than 7.2 {time flies when your having fun}. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 28 22:30:44 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Classic monochrome phosphors? Message-ID: <002601c059bd$a7d5edc0$a2769a8d@ajp166> From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com >Does anyone know the designation (as in "P3" or "P25") of these long-lived >green and yellow phosphors that were commonly used on IBM PC and PC-clone Between scopes and terminals I have: P31 blue, ? amber, P1 green and two differnt whites (vt100 and Vt320 paperwhite). P1 is the common medium green of older scopes and terminals P3 and P39 are either amber or white range, I forget P7 short blue/long yellow (used mostly for scopes and slowscan) P11 is blue (more toward the medium persistance) P31 The common scope tubes early 90s (blueish white medium) There are others but, the codes to them are long forgotten. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Nov 28 22:37:43 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 In-Reply-To: <200011290349.TAA07365@shell1.aracnet.com> (healyzh@aracnet.com) References: <200011290349.TAA07365@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20001129043743.3895.qmail@brouhaha.com> Zane wrote: > Huh? The Open was added around the 6.0/6.1 timeframe. The Compaq merger > was during the 7.2eft timeframe. I'd thought the namechange was a > combination of emphasising it's openess, but largly a reaction to the fact > they now had VMS running on both VAX and Alpha. Shortly after DEC announced the Alpha, I somehow got on their mailing list for training. I flipped through the catalog, and found a class on writing OpenVMS device drivers. The fine print said that a signed non-disclosure agreement was required. So much for the "Open" in "OpenVMS". From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 28 22:49:31 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: <004501c059b3$0a1dd840$a2769a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Nov 28, 2000 10:16:25 PM Message-ID: <200011290449.UAA11146@shell1.aracnet.com> > Yes the lack of JAVA, frames, no cookies and Activex stuff does limits > sites available and more every day. I'd think JAVA would not be that > bad on a smaller CPU tough it may be slow. After all it's not that much > different than running UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code on z80 or > 6502! > > Allison One of these days I'd really like to play with a UCSD PASCAL system, largely to get a feel of how well it worked. From what I've heard getting any kind of Java running on a 68k based system is a problem (have we got anyone still active with Amiga's around, they'd have a better idea). That tells me that a 486 or lower won't really be able to cut it when it comes to JAVA. It does make you wonder what Sun's minimum requirements for Java is on thier machines. Wait a minute.... I think I had Java running on my PowerBook 520c back in '95 or '96, and it's a 68LC040 based system, so I guess at least a 68040 or 486 based system probably can do Java. At least on a supported OS (which is the real problem). Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Nov 28 22:54:34 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Vax 4000-60 In-Reply-To: <002701c059bd$a88bd040$a2769a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Nov 28, 2000 11:34:05 PM Message-ID: <200011290454.UAA11496@shell1.aracnet.com> > >Huh? The Open was added around the 6.0/6.1 timeframe. The Compaq > merger > >was during the 7.2eft timeframe. I'd thought the namechange was a > >combination of emphasising it's openess, but largly a reaction to the > fact > >they now had VMS running on both VAX and Alpha. > > > > Zane > > No! The Alpha was a year after OpenVMS was started in references. > I was seeingit internally back in '91, the alpha was a bit later. The OK, I must be getting the switching the version from 1.5 to 6.0 (or was it 6.1) for the Alpha version mixed up with that. > OS itself was to change internal and external names much later. > The compaq merger was earlier than 7.2 {time flies when your having fun}. > > Allison While it was earlier than 7.2, wasn't 7.2 in field test? That's why I said 7.2eft (External Field Test). I know the V7.2 Doc set's say Compaq (and have a really stupid cover). Dunno, I could have sworn that's when it was, but as you say, time flies. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 29 00:53:40 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Update: Computer Rescue needed in Portland, OR Message-ID: I figured I'd update people on the status of the systems I'm getting rid of. Thanks to a local collector I was able to get everything but the actual junk out of the unit I was trying to get rid of. I even managed to get rid of the junk a little latter, and the unit itself. All this without loosing any classic computers, even common ones. So now the crunch is off, but I'm still looking to find local takers for the following stuff. As I still need to get a bunch of stuff out of the remaining two units (for one thing I'd like to eventually get down to one unit). A note on the items with the '$' by them. As I'd said before I'm looking for some money for or some Sun or DEC stuff that I can use (fairly modern in other words). These are items that I've spent real money on, and/or rather like so if I can't recover what I've spent on them, I'll be keeping them. On some items this means I don't want to much, on others, quite a bit. Zane RULE1: These systems are for *local pickup* only. I quite simply do not have time to ship stuff. RULE1A: If you're going to be paying for something I can mark items as being for a certain person and will hold onto them for a reasonable amount of time until they can pick them up if they're going to be in this area. RULE2: Systems sold as is. Various Laser 128 $ Kaypro II Mattel Aquarius (Unknown) $ Epson PX-8 (think that's the right name) Apple Apple ][ plus Apple ][e (x2) Apple ][e enhanced 3 broken keys Apple ][c (x2) Apple ][gs (x2 1 is a Woz) $ Lisa 2/5 Apple Macintosh's Macintosh 512k, third party upgrade to Plus Macintosh SE Macintosh SE/HDFD Macintosh II Macintosh LC Atari $ Atari TT030 Commodore Bussiness Machines Commodore 64c $ Amiga 2000 (x3 only 1 keyboard, 2 Magni Genlocks, 1084 monitor, misc. other stuff) $ Amiga 3000 (1 fully updated, 1 spare. The updated one includes a Catweasel, Picasso IV, a total of 18MB RAM, and latest rev chips. I will keep this system before I part it out so don't bother asking.) digital $ PDP-11/03 $ PDT-11/150 (Unknown Condition, this is not a Q-Bus or Unibus system) $ DEC Professional 380 (has VAX console board) DECmate III (3 or 4 of them, Need Software, but that's easily available on the net) DEC Rainbow (Unknown) DECstation 5000/133 (no drives, 32MB RAM, works) IBM PC clones Kapro PC IMSAI $ IMSAI 8080 (Rack Mount style, but have top/sides for desktop style, do not have the front for desktop style) Tandy Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer 2 Texas Instruments Silent 700 Data Terminal (two different models, only sure where one is at the moment) -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From marvin at rain.org Wed Nov 29 00:59:46 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Tempest Mac SE References: <200011290454.UAA11496@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3A24A962.779ABC45@rain.org> In what is probably a feeble attempt to make more room, I am in the process of throwing out what I consider to be junk. In this process, I ran across a modified Mac SE (only the modified case, picture tube, and some small unknown device) that looks like it might have been modified for use as a Tempest machine. The label reads: The Tempest division of Atlantic Research Company, ARC, P/N D77569-4, model T5240. I was about to toss it but in looking more closely at it, that would most likely be not a good thing since it appears to be somewhat unique. If in fact this is a tempest Mac, are the computer components most likely interchangeable with other Macs? I wish I had the keyboard that went with this thing but unfortunately, all I have is the cabinet. From pete at atc.creative.com Wed Nov 29 01:32:16 2000 From: pete at atc.creative.com (Peter Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Wanted: HP Integral PC References: Message-ID: <3A24B0FF.DC02BC15@atc.creative.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On a related note, the hard disks in the 9154 are supposed to be 20MB > > 3.5" SCSI drives, but they use a smaller connector that I am not > > familiar with, and again no power connector. Is there some standard for > > SCSI that came before the normal SCSI-1 type connector or did HP do some > > proprietary type of connector? > > Are you sure it's SCSI? I thought it was some custom interface. It > certainly didn't look like SCSI to me... > The drives are HP model 97500-85620. The following places on the net show it as a SCSI drive: http://www.pc-disk.de/pcdisk/h/2000/1208.htm http://nuked.org/download/theref/theref.aquascape.com/hard_drives/h_hp-97500-85620.html http://www.rdg.ac.uk/CSC/Topic/Techs/TeXDhdre01/hdref2.html http://www.mfarris.com/hard/Hewlett_Packard1.html Of course, they could all be getting their information from the same incorrect source. In a way though, SCSI does make sense since the drives do have integrated drive electronics. From the period, the only drives that I know of with integrated controllers were either SCSI or SASI. I thought that SASI was only used by Shuggart. The PC versions did not appear until about 1988 (later than the 9153/9154), and I doubt that HP (at that time) would have use the PC types anyway. At some point, I will pull the integrated controller board off the disk and look to see if any standard parts were used. Also, the chips that I can see on the main board in the drive seem to use HP ASICs (an 84 and a 68 pin CQFP). -Pete From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Nov 29 04:51:41 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Classic monochrome phosphors? In-Reply-To: <002601c059bd$a7d5edc0$a2769a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 23:30:44 -0500 ajp166 wrote: > Between scopes and terminals I have: > > P31 blue, ? amber, P1 green and two differnt whites > (vt100 and Vt320 paperwhite). > > P1 is the common medium green of older scopes and terminals > P3 and P39 are either amber or white range, I forget > P7 short blue/long yellow (used mostly for scopes and slowscan) > P11 is blue (more toward the medium persistance) > P31 The common scope tubes early 90s (blueish white medium) This is all very useful information to a collector of old scopes, terminals and VDUs! > There are others but, the codes to them are long forgotten. But surely there's a standards document somewhere that describes these phoshpors? Chemical composition, colour, persistence data, that kind of thing? Does anybody have any idea where I might start looking for that standard (I may be able to find it in the library here)? Probably worth putting together a summary for the WWW, if I can find the standard. No Java, Flash, JavaScript, ActiveX or MIDI files -- promise! :-) -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From PeksaDO at Cardiff.ac.uk Wed Nov 29 11:34:30 2000 From: PeksaDO at Cardiff.ac.uk (DOUG PEKSA - COMPG) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Too late for the Sords Message-ID: <3A24E99B.15461.4CACE57@localhost> A similar tragedy (although on a much smaller scale) last week. Arrive at coffee at 11:15 to be told that an IBM PS/2 P70 (386 plasma luggable) has been placed/thrown on the skip. This is in direct contravention of my standing orders that I should be told before anything is thrown away - but no one listens.... Anyway, deciding that no more damage will come to the item while I finish my coffee, I finish my coffee. Twenty minutes later and I'm standing next to the skip or more correctly I would be standing next to the skip if the skip was there - it's gone. I am overcome with guilt - if only I'd gone immediately, if only I'd broken a few legs earlier to impress upon people that I collect junk^H^H^H^H antiques. However I later discover that the skip had been removed a minute or two before 11:00, so even if I'd gone immediately on being told I would have been too late. I am now resolved to go immediately and at high speed when information is received. The baseball bat is now within easy reach on the bookshelf. Doug. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Nov 29 06:58:03 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: EBCDIC to ASCII Utility for DOS/Win? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3A250B6B.5504.515F43B@localhost> > Don't let me scare anyone, but this question is actually for _work_. > :-) The mainframe guys asked me if I knew of any utilities for > translating from EBCDIC to ASCII on a DOS or Windows PC, as they have > a user who keeps getting big (12MB) data dumps from another company in > EBCDIC, and they're getting tired up uploading it to the mainframe and > back down just to get the EBCDIC->ASCII translation done. Any > suggestions? Web searching has turned up very little of interest. TITLE CONVERT DOSSEG .MODEL SMALL,C .186 INCLUDE COLUMBUS.MAC INCLUDE DOS.MAC INCLUDE MACRO.MAC INCLUDE CONST.HA .DATA convtab LABEL BYTE BYTE 0, 1, 2, 3,156, 9,134,127 BYTE 191,141,142, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 BYTE 16, 17, 18, 19,157,133, 8,135 BYTE 24, 25,146,143, 28, 29, 30, 31 BYTE 128,129,130,131,132, 10, 23, 27 BYTE 144,145, 22,147,148,149,150, 4 BYTE 152,153,154,155, 20, 21,158, 26 BYTE 32,160,226,228,224,225,227,229 BYTE 231,241,162, 46, 60, 40, 43,124 BYTE 38,233,234,235,232,237,238,239 BYTE 236,223, 33, 36, 42, 41, 59,172 BYTE 45, 47,194,196,192,193,195,197 BYTE 199,209,166, 44, 37, 95, 62, 63 BYTE 248,201,202,203,200,205,206,207 BYTE 204, 96, 58, 35, 64, 39, 61, 34 BYTE 216, 97, 98, 99,100,101,102,103 BYTE 104,105,171,187,240,253,254,177 BYTE 176,106,107,108,109,110,111,112 BYTE 113,114,170,186,230,184,198,164 BYTE 181,126,115,116,117,118,119,120 BYTE 121,122,161,191,208,221,222,174 BYTE 94,163,165,183,169,167,182,188 BYTE 189,190, 91, 93,175,168,180,215 BYTE 123, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71 BYTE 72, 73,173,244,246,242,243,245 BYTE 125, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 BYTE 81, 82,185,251,252,249,250,255 BYTE 92,247, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88 BYTE 89, 90,178,212,214,210,211,213 BYTE 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55 BYTE 56, 57,179,219,220,217,218,159 .STACK .CODE @ENTR ,<>,<> @WHIL NC READ STDIN,buff,512 @BREA push ax ;--------- here's the loop :) mov cx,ax lea si,buff mov di,si lea bx,convtab xlp: lodsb xlat stosb loop xlb ;--------- Thats it. pop cx WRITE STDOUT,buff,cx @BEND @EXIT 0 @END The Table is generated acording to IBM NLS RM Vol2 SE09-8002-01 Codeset IBM037 (aka CP037, aka EBCDIC-CP-US/-CA/-WT/-NL) Take care to use codeset used on the originateing machine and application - there are tons of EBCDIC versions out there. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Nov 29 06:59:58 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: EBCDIC to ASCII Utility for DOS/Win? In-Reply-To: <005901c05996$2fcffc20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3A250BDE.26915.517B5F0@localhost> > > > > Don't let me scare anyone, but this question is actually for _work_. > > > Good. My outside consulting rate is $200/Hr. > > Ludicrously overpriced. I'll do it for $150/h. > > ;-) > 'ey! Wazzamadda you? Ainnayougoddanufabruises? > Da boyza tella me deysa breakkayou face anna you leggsa too iffa you donna > stoppa cuttin' da prices! > $195's low enuff! A real bargain - you're hired ! Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 2.0 am 28./29. April 2001 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Wed Nov 29 07:39:43 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: fwd: Teletype available Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F09031947@alfexc5.alf.dec.com> Please send inquiries to the original poster below... ----------------------- Path: spln!rex!lex!dex!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucber keley!128.169.76.138.MISMATCH!newsfeed.utk.edu!uky.edu!news.cuny.edu!schmooz e.hunter.cuny.edu!ershc From: "Eric Schweitzer (archy)" Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers Subject: itt tty Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 00:21:46 -0500 Lines: 12 Distribution: world Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: schmooze.hunter.cuny.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Xref: spln alt.folklore.computers:123375 A family friend died, and while cleaning out some woodworking stuff, I noticed an ITT teletype sitting in the garage. I know nothing about its working condition, and didn't have time to look for a model number or the like, but it does have a paper tape reader/punch (with some blank tape and a 1/2 full chad container). His widow thinks it worked when last used, but that was a while ago. It is free for the pickup, if anyone accessable to the north shore of Long Island (Nassau County, New York State, U.S.A.) is interested in it. Otherwise, it will get tossed. Email me for contact info. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Nov 29 07:41:13 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: <200011290449.UAA11146@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <004501c059b3$0a1dd840$a2769a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001129073726.02f4f3c0@pc> At 08:49 PM 11/28/00 -0800, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: >One of these days I'd really like to play with a UCSD PASCAL system, largely >to get a feel of how well it worked. From what I've heard getting any kind >of Java running on a 68k based system is a problem (have we got anyone still >active with Amiga's around, they'd have a better idea). That tells me that >a 486 or lower won't really be able to cut it when it comes to JAVA. I'm sure Chuck will jump in here, but certainly Java can run on very small processors such as the Java Ring or the Pilot, which isn't far from the average 68000. As part of yet another business I administer, www.ezsweep.com, I routinely run three Java instances in DOS windows under Win95 on a P-75 with 16 megs, so there. :-) Be sure to visit the p-System exhibit at www.threedee.com/jcm/ for more info. Offhand, Java byte code is far more complex than p-System p-code. - John From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 29 09:11:54 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Classic monochrome phosphors? In-Reply-To: References: <002601c059bd$a7d5edc0$a2769a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001129101154.3d2fb152@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:51 AM 11/29/00 +0000, John Honniball wrote: > > >This is all very useful information to a collector of old >scopes, terminals and VDUs! > >> There are others but, the codes to them are long forgotten. > >But surely there's a standards document somewhere that >describes these phoshpors? Chemical composition, colour, >persistence data, that kind of thing? Does anybody have >any idea where I might start looking for that standard (I >may be able to find it in the library here)? > >Probably worth putting together a summary for the WWW, if I >can find the standard. No Java, Flash, JavaScript, ActiveX >or MIDI files -- promise! :-) > That's an interesting quest. Have you tried to contact any CRT manufacturers and asked them? They should know all of that. Unfortunately most (all?) of the CRT manufacturers that used to be in the US have moved to China, Taiwan or Malaysia. Joe From THETechnoid at home.com Wed Nov 29 09:04:09 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Classic monochrome phosphors? In-Reply-To: <001128222312.202006a3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20001129145521.TISV3142.femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> I've got a couple of mono (composite) monitors I'd let go of. One is an Amdek Amber, and the other is a generic (green). Pay shipping, packaging costs, and one of them is yours. Regards, Jeff In <001128222312.202006a3@trailing-edge.com>, on 11/29/00 at 10:04 AM, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com said: >Through the 80's and up into the early (Lasnerian) 90's, it was common to >see monochrome video displays with *long* decay-time phosphors. As in >hundreds of milliseconds, enough such that if you were a quick typist the >cursor block left a very distinct trail going back a good fraction of a >line :-) >Does anyone know the designation (as in "P3" or "P25") of these >long-lived green and yellow phosphors that were commonly used on IBM PC >and PC-clone monochrome displays? Even better, anyone know of a source >(new or used, preferably NTSC or Monochrome SVGA) for such monitors? >Tim. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From owad at applefritter.com Wed Nov 29 08:58:48 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: Tempest Mac SE In-Reply-To: <3A24A962.779ABC45@rain.org> References: <3A24A962.779ABC45@rain.org> Message-ID: <20001129145848.18870@mail.lafayette.edu> >In what is probably a feeble attempt to make more room, I am in the process >of throwing out what I consider to be junk. In this process, I ran across a >modified Mac SE (only the modified case, picture tube, and some small >unknown device) that looks like it might have been modified for use as a >Tempest machine. The label reads: The Tempest division of Atlantic Research >Company, ARC, P/N D77569-4, model T5240. I was about to toss it but in >looking more closely at it, that would most likely be not a good thing since >it appears to be somewhat unique. If in fact this is a tempest Mac, are the >computer components most likely interchangeable with other Macs? I wish I >had the keyboard that went with this thing but unfortunately, all I have is >the cabinet. The computer most likely uses a completely standard motherboard, CRT, analog board, etc, but is simply lined in metal. For more information, you may want to look at: http://applefritter.com/macclones/systematics/index.html http://applefritter.com/macclones/techmatics/index.html http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/tempest.html If you decide to get rid of the machine please let me know. Tom Owad Applefritter www.applefritter.com From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 29 09:23:50 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:07 2005 Subject: DaynaFile 2 Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB369@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, John Foust wrote: > > > At 09:33 PM 11/27/00 -0500, Louis Schulman wrote: > > >Does someone have the software. I have downloaded the two > > >.hqx files, but they are password protected. Doh! Anyone > > >know how to crack password protection on an .hqx file? > > > > Passwords on BinHex files? I've never heard of that. > > BinHex is similar to 'uuencode', just a binary to ASCII > > conversion. How did you attempt to open them? > > John, the 'q' in the extension suggests a 'squeezed' file, and > while I am not aware of a password scheme for squeeze programs, > that does not prove that there were not some. > > Louis, I would take a crack at it with the Carson Wilson program > CFX and see what it does. I was able to use "Stuffit Password Remover" to get into the original un-binhexed file. Unfortunately, it turned out NOT to be DaynaFile 3.1 as labeled, but was actually SuperVideo (Radius?). Luckily I found my original DaynaFile disks. If anyone else has an orphaned DaynaFile-II, let me know, and I'll spin you a copy. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 29 09:27:43 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB36A@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> I think I still have the disks somewhere.... I just don't have an Apple-II to use to verify their readability. It wasn't bad, I rather enjoyed using it (my last semester in college, Spring '83). -dq > -----Original Message----- > From: healyzh@aracnet.com [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 11:50 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Why is it that ... > > > > Yes the lack of JAVA, frames, no cookies and Activex stuff > does limits > > sites available and more every day. I'd think JAVA would > not be that > > bad on a smaller CPU tough it may be slow. After all it's > not that much > > different than running UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code on z80 or > > 6502! > > > > Allison > > One of these days I'd really like to play with a UCSD PASCAL > system, largely > to get a feel of how well it worked. From what I've heard > getting any kind > of Java running on a 68k based system is a problem (have we > got anyone still > active with Amiga's around, they'd have a better idea). That > tells me that > a 486 or lower won't really be able to cut it when it comes to JAVA. > > It does make you wonder what Sun's minimum requirements for > Java is on thier > machines. > > Wait a minute.... I think I had Java running on my PowerBook > 520c back in > '95 or '96, and it's a 68LC040 based system, so I guess at > least a 68040 or > 486 based system probably can do Java. At least on a > supported OS (which is > the real problem). > > Zane > From Scott.Miller at vandenberg.af.mil Wed Nov 29 10:12:15 2000 From: Scott.Miller at vandenberg.af.mil (Miller Scott Contr 30CS/FTI) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: DECserver 200 Message-ID: Yup, typically used for dumb terminals, serial printers, and modems. Unfortunately I'm still stuck using these things here at work. I've almost got rid of them all - every time we have a power failure, another one dies. They're not really bad units, but when they've been powered on for a decade or more without interruption, the reliability goes downhill and besides that we're trying to get away from non-IP traffic on the network. I've only seen these things used with OpenVMS, though I suppose at least DEC Unix might have software. If I remember right, these things download their code from the nearest VMS box when they're powered up. Setting REPLY/ENABLE on the VMS system should let you see it start up. I've really never configured one from scratch, just swapped out good units for bad ones, so I'm really not sure of the whole installation procedure. Scott -----Original Message----- From: Iggy Drougge [mailto:optimus@canit.se] Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 4:06 PM To: Classic computing Subject: DECserver 200 At the user group today, I was intrigued by a pretty little DEC box called a "DECserver 200MC" (or MX?). It's got a very anonymous front panel, whereas the back is fitted out with 8 DB25 ports, into which some RS232->MJ11 (or whatever that modular DEC serial port is called) converters are plugged. There is also an AUI port. Is it a terminal server of some kind? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Hackers do it with fewer instructions. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Nov 29 10:40:26 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: DECserver 200 Message-ID: <20001129164026.20656.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> --- healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > You're not the only one with it on your todo list. I've got one I need to > get up and running since as I understand it, it can do Reverse LAT, and act > as a Console Server. I *NEED* a console server! > > For anyone that's wondering (I know Chuck knows) the software is on the just > about any VAX or Alpha VMS ConDist. I have one, too (and the uVAX2000 w/disk that it used to boot from). What I would like to do is fire up DECnet on a Linux box and start the DECserver from there. Has anyone tried _that_ yet? -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From THETechnoid at home.com Wed Nov 29 11:49:45 2000 From: THETechnoid at home.com (THETechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: Wanted: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <3A24B0FF.DC02BC15@atc.creative.com> Message-ID: <20001129175718.XVJO3142.femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ci223229-a> Back in the mid-80's I had a Quantum Q2020 16mb 8" hard drive with a bolt-on SASI controller. It gave this behomoth a 50-pin sasi jack to which I connected my Atari's BlackBox host adapter. I don't remember who made the controller board. It had a huge power supply hanging off it's side, and a 'smoked' plastic bubble covering the platters. You could see the mech working if you shone a light through the plastic. Despite the !ouch! mechanical warning stickers all over it, it ran very quitely. I just loved that drive. :-) Unlike the scsi drives which I also ran on my Black Box and/or MIO scsi host adapters, this Sasi drive did not map-out it's own bad sectors. After formatting (special program), you would run a high-level scan of the drive's surface. The program put a special file in the root of the drive which 'occupied' all of the bad sectors on the drive. Also, the Konan DJ-210, WD1002SHD, and both Xebec S1410 controllers were Bridge adapters from ST506/412 to SASI. You used LUNs to run more than one mech on the bridge (except WD1002 only 1 drive) just like a SCSI bridge. I know the BB and MIO interfaces for the atari ran both, but I'm wondering if today's PC host adapters will run really old devices like those old bridge controllers? Rambling..... Jeff In <3A24B0FF.DC02BC15@atc.creative.com>, on 11/29/00 at 12:49 PM, Peter Johnson said: From the period, the only drives >that I know of with integrated controllers were either SCSI or SASI. I >thought that SASI was only used by Shuggart. The PC versions did not >appear until about 1988 (later than the 9153/9154), and I doubt that HP >(at that time) would have use the PC types anyway. >At some point, I will pull the integrated controller board off the disk >and look to see if any standard parts were used. Also, the chips that I >can see on the main board in the drive seem to use HP ASICs (an 84 and a >68 pin CQFP). >-Pete -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley President Complete Computer Services, Inc. 30 Greenwood Rd. Asheville, NC 28803 828-277-5959 Visit our website at HTTP://www.Real-Techs.com THETechnoid@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 29 11:59:27 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: DECserver 200 In-Reply-To: <20001129164026.20656.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >I have one, too (and the uVAX2000 w/disk that it used to boot from). What I >would like to do is fire up DECnet on a Linux box and start the DECserver >from there. Has anyone tried _that_ yet? I haven't, but Patrick Caulfield one of the people doing DECnet for Linux has. I'd be tempted to go this route, except for the fact that these days I've rarely got a Linux box up, and I've *always* got at least one VMS box up. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 29 12:04:56 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB36A@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >I think I still have the disks somewhere.... I just don't have >an Apple-II to use to verify their readability. > >It wasn't bad, I rather enjoyed using it (my last semester in >college, Spring '83). > >-dq So UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code ran on the Apple //? I'm guessing this means it'll run on a //e or //gs? If so is there anywhere the software can be downloaded from? Just might be the excuse I need to get that //gs back up and running (gulp, I just buried it's SCSI drive). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jtinker at coin.org Wed Nov 29 12:10:18 2000 From: jtinker at coin.org (John Tinker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: fwd: Teletype available References: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F09031947@alfexc5.alf.dec.com> Message-ID: <3A254689.6FCCB7A4@coin.org> Darn, if anyone knows of any teletypes in the neighbor hood of Missouri or Iowa, I'd like to have one around, especially one with a tape reader/punch. -- John Tinker "Eros, Anthony" wrote: > Please send inquiries to the original poster below... > > ----------------------- > > Path: > spln!rex!lex!dex!extra.newsguy.com!lotsanews.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucber > keley!128.169.76.138.MISMATCH!newsfeed.utk.edu!uky.edu!news.cuny.edu!schmooz > e.hunter.cuny.edu!ershc > From: "Eric Schweitzer (archy)" > Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers > Subject: itt tty > Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 00:21:46 -0500 > Lines: 12 > Distribution: world > Message-ID: > > NNTP-Posting-Host: schmooze.hunter.cuny.edu > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Xref: spln alt.folklore.computers:123375 > > A family friend died, and while cleaning out some woodworking stuff, I > noticed an ITT teletype sitting in the garage. I know nothing about its > working condition, and didn't have time to look for a model number or the > like, but it does have a paper tape reader/punch (with some blank tape and > a 1/2 full chad container). His widow thinks it worked when last used, but > that was a while ago. It is free for the pickup, if anyone accessable to > the north shore of Long Island (Nassau County, New York State, U.S.A.) > is interested in it. Otherwise, it will get tossed. > > Email me for contact info. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 29 12:13:41 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: Update: Computer Rescue needed in Portland, OR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Slight update, same rules apply. This never showed up on either list, and I thought I had a taker for it. I've also got a DECwriter II, it's a big monster, in good outword shape. Idon't know how well it works though, I know it needs cleaned up, and probably a new ribbon. Obviously shipping isn't practical on this beast. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 29 12:41:03 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB36D@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > >I think I still have the disks somewhere.... I just don't have > >an Apple-II to use to verify their readability. > > > >It wasn't bad, I rather enjoyed using it (my last semester in > >college, Spring '83). > > > >-dq > > So UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code ran on the Apple //? I'm guessing this > means it'll run on a //e or //gs? If so is there anywhere the software can > be downloaded from? Just might be the excuse I need to get that //gs back > up and running (gulp, I just buried it's SCSI drive). Among other platforms... (wasn't the Terak a UCSD machine?). I think you had to have the Integer Basic (?) card for it to work. I copied the system onto single-sided verbatim floppies that I'd punched to use as "flippies"... the school wasn't hip to copying software, at least not in '83. -dq From bills at adrenaline.com Wed Nov 29 12:46:43 2000 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: fwd: Teletype available In-Reply-To: <3A254689.6FCCB7A4@coin.org> Message-ID: Did somebody bag this already? I sent a message to the original poster yesterday after Jim Willings message and have not received a reply. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Nov 29 13:23:09 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB36D@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> "from Douglas Quebbeman at Nov 29, 2000 01:41:03 pm" Message-ID: <200011291923.NAA23420@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > > So UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code ran on the Apple //? I'm guessing this > > means it'll run on a //e or //gs? If so is there anywhere the software > can > > be downloaded from? Just might be the excuse I need to get that //gs back > > up and running (gulp, I just buried it's SCSI drive). > > Among other platforms... (wasn't the Terak a UCSD machine?). > The Terak (LSI-11 cpu) was often used with either UCSD P-System, or MMOS (Minnesota Microcomputer Operating System, which was a local enhanced version of UCSD). Though it could also run a version of RT11 and Unix. -Lawrence LeMay From kapteynr at cboe.com Wed Nov 29 13:51:31 2000 From: kapteynr at cboe.com (Rob Kapteyn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: Update: Computer Rescue needed in Portland, OR Message-ID: <6D5A04499826D311811100902760DDCF04B14882@msx1.cboe.com> Zane: I'd be interested in your IMSAI 8080, particularly if it had any S100 "extras" in it. But I am in Chicago. Would if be able to convince you ship it somehow ?$? Everyone: I just found this mailing list and "subscribed" yesterday. I am stunned by all of the activity on it. I have been thinking about firing up my old Altair 8800 (early model). I talked my Dad into getting it for me when I was 13 years old and my brother and I learned a lot with it. So does anyone have any tips on firing up this old monster ? It it rather precious to me and I don't want to blow it up. I guess I should just take out all of the cards and check out the power supply first. I have heard that old capacitors can dry up and fail catastrophically -- but I think that this applies to the 1950's capacitors, not the 1970's ones. I still have the original "Altair Basic" on a paper tape with a manual made on a mimeograph-type machine by the "Microsoft Corporation" of Redmond Washington. Anyone out there have some other interesting 8080 software ? Rob Kapteyn kapteynr@cboe.com -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy [SMTP:healyzh@aracnet.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 12:54 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Update: Computer Rescue needed in Portland, OR I figured I'd update people on the status of the systems I'm getting rid of. Thanks to a local collector I was able to get everything but the actual junk out of the unit I was trying to get rid of. I even managed to get rid of the junk a little latter, and the unit itself. All this without loosing any classic computers, even common ones. So now the crunch is off, but I'm still looking to find local takers for the following stuff. As I still need to get a bunch of stuff out of the remaining two units (for one thing I'd like to eventually get down to one unit). A note on the items with the '$' by them. As I'd said before I'm looking for some money for or some Sun or DEC stuff that I can use (fairly modern in other words). These are items that I've spent real money on, and/or rather like so if I can't recover what I've spent on them, I'll be keeping them. On some items this means I don't want to much, on others, quite a bit. Zane RULE1: These systems are for *local pickup* only. I quite simply do not have time to ship stuff. RULE1A: If you're going to be paying for something I can mark items as being for a certain person and will hold onto them for a reasonable amount of time until they can pick them up if they're going to be in this area. RULE2: Systems sold as is. Various Laser 128 $ Kaypro II Mattel Aquarius (Unknown) $ Epson PX-8 (think that's the right name) Apple Apple ][ plus Apple ][e (x2) Apple ][e enhanced 3 broken keys Apple ][c (x2) Apple ][gs (x2 1 is a Woz) $ Lisa 2/5 Apple Macintosh's Macintosh 512k, third party upgrade to Plus Macintosh SE Macintosh SE/HDFD Macintosh II Macintosh LC Atari $ Atari TT030 Commodore Bussiness Machines Commodore 64c $ Amiga 2000 (x3 only 1 keyboard, 2 Magni Genlocks, 1084 monitor, misc. other stuff) $ Amiga 3000 (1 fully updated, 1 spare. The updated one includes a Catweasel, Picasso IV, a total of 18MB RAM, and latest rev chips. I will keep this system before I part it out so don't bother asking.) digital $ PDP-11/03 $ PDT-11/150 (Unknown Condition, this is not a Q-Bus or Unibus system) $ DEC Professional 380 (has VAX console board) DECmate III (3 or 4 of them, Need Software, but that's easily available on the net) DEC Rainbow (Unknown) DECstation 5000/133 (no drives, 32MB RAM, works) IBM PC clones Kapro PC IMSAI $ IMSAI 8080 (Rack Mount style, but have top/sides for desktop style, do not have the front for desktop style) Tandy Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer 2 Texas Instruments Silent 700 Data Terminal (two different models, only sure where one is at the moment) -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Nov 29 13:54:56 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB36D@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3A250AB0.17533.FA18DA@localhost> On 29 Nov 2000, at 13:41, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > I think you had to have the Integer Basic (?) card for it to work. Not the Integer BASIC card but the so called "Language Card" or as others called it, a 16K Ram card. That's the card that gave you 64k of ram switching space with the ROMs. The IIe has that built in and runs the Apple version of UCSD Pascal just fine. I wouldn't see any reason it wouldn't also run on a //gs but I haven't tried it on mine. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Nov 29 13:59:42 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: Update: Computer Rescue needed in Portland, OR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3A250BCE.5242.FE7808@localhost> On 28 Nov 2000, at 22:53, Zane H. Healy wrote: > RULE1: These systems are for *local pickup* only. I quite simply do > not > have time to ship stuff. ARGGGGH!!!!! Damn. :) ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 29 14:20:24 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB36E@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > On 29 Nov 2000, at 13:41, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > I think you had to have the Integer Basic (?) card for it to work. > > Not the Integer BASIC card but the so called "Language Card" or > as others called it, a 16K Ram card. That's the card that gave you > 64k of ram switching space with the ROMs. The IIe has that built > in and runs the Apple version of UCSD Pascal just fine. I wouldn't > see any reason it wouldn't also run on a //gs but I haven't > tried it on mine. That's the one.... I'm sure glad most of the rest of you aren't suffering from "halfheimer's disease" as badly as I am! -dq From elvey at hal.com Wed Nov 29 14:28:00 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: Update: Computer Rescue needed in Portland, OR In-Reply-To: <6D5A04499826D311811100902760DDCF04B14882@msx1.cboe.com> Message-ID: <200011292028.MAA24832@civic.hal.com> Rob Kapteyn wrote: > > So does anyone have any tips on firing up this old monster ? > It it rather precious to me and I don't want to blow it up. > I guess I should just take out all of the cards and check out the power supply > first. > I have heard that old capacitors can dry up and fail catastrophically -- but I > think that this applies > to the 1950's capacitors, not the 1970's ones. Hi You should bring the main supply up slowly on a variac. Any electrolytic capacitor can blow. Do remove all the boards, including the front panel. When you turn things on the first time, turn the power off after a minute or so and see if any of the tantalums are hot. These also fail with time and tend to flame. Make sure to point that chassis away for people and windows. When the large ones blow it can be dangerous. Check the voltages after installing each card. The rest is just locating bad chips. Most older RAM boards will have at least one bad RAM on them. Write a simple test to check these. I wrote a simple one that could be quickly entered from the front panel that just did a checker board/ checker board bar type pattern that worked well. Most likely a GALPAT would be better but one should restrict that to one RAM bank at a time to save from wasting time. I do recommend that you do at least one simple march and reverse march ( half of a march C ) over the entire memory bank to look for address faults. Dwight From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Nov 29 14:35:22 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...)" (Nov 29, 10:04) References: Message-ID: <10011292035.ZM4078@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 29, 10:04, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >I think I still have the disks somewhere.... I just don't have > >an Apple-II to use to verify their readability. > So UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code ran on the Apple //? Well, it ran on a 48K Apple ][+ or Europlus with the Language Card (which, for those who might not know, is a 16KB RAM card that fits Slot 0, and pages in in place of the ROMs). It's anything but fast :-) However, Apple used it for much of their dealer and service centre diagnostics, so it was used for, and capable of, Real Work. I still have mine somewhere. UCSD p-System was also available for PDP-11's, BBC Micros, Sage II, and quite a few other machines. I've got versions for all of those. Doesn't UCSD still have a web page about it? > I'm guessing this > means it'll run on a //e or //gs? Probably. > If so is there anywhere the software can > be downloaded from? Dunno, but the disk structure is different from ProDOS and Apple DOS 3.3, so I'm not sure how you'd deal with that. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From kapteynr at cboe.com Wed Nov 29 14:52:30 2000 From: kapteynr at cboe.com (Rob Kapteyn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: Update: Computer Rescue needed in Portland, OR Message-ID: <6D5A04499826D311811100902760DDCF04B14884@msx1.cboe.com> I am sorry. I got so exicted when I saw the IMSAI on the list, I couldn't sit still long enough to go back and read that part. I will try not to do it again :) -Rob -----Original Message----- From: David Williams [SMTP:dlw@trailingedge.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 2:00 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Update: Computer Rescue needed in Portland, OR On 28 Nov 2000, at 22:53, Zane H. Healy wrote: > RULE1: These systems are for *local pickup* only. I quite simply do > not > have time to ship stuff. ARGGGGH!!!!! Damn. :) ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 29 13:54:11 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > So UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code ran on the Apple //? I'm guessing this > means it'll run on a //e or //gs? If so is there anywhere the software can > be downloaded from? Just might be the excuse I need to get that //gs back > up and running (gulp, I just buried it's SCSI drive). Gawd, I don't know why anyone would actually want to use (or like) the UCSD Pascal system on the Apple ][ since I found it to be so incredibly horrid, but I do still have my system disks handy and I could make an Apple ][ ShrinkIt! archive of them and stick it on my server. Let me know and I'll do it... Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 29 14:15:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: <200011290449.UAA11146@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Nov 28, 0 08:49:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1536 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001129/21a30c7f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 29 14:22:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: Wanted: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <3A24B0FF.DC02BC15@atc.creative.com> from "Peter Johnson" at Nov 28, 0 11:32:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1827 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001129/cfe5bf3e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 29 14:08:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: Classic monochrome phosphors? In-Reply-To: <001128222312.202006a3@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Nov 28, 0 10:23:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4740 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001129/a772b3c1/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 29 14:02:01 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB36D@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Among other platforms... (wasn't the Terak a UCSD machine?). > > I think you had to have the Integer Basic (?) card for it to work. No, but you did have to have 64K, the upper 16K also being referred to as the "Language Card", which is what got you confused probably. Historical note: the "Language Card" was originally a card that had either Integer BASIC or AppleSoft BASIC ROMs on it (mapping into the upper 16K of 64K) that you could switch in when you wanted your Apple to take on an alternate personality. It later was just a RAM card that you could load whatever you wanted into it, including your own code. Lots of games used the extra RAM. > I copied the system onto single-sided verbatim floppies that I'd > punched to use as "flippies"... the school wasn't hip to copying > software, at least not in '83. If I recall properly, the whole system took 4 disk sides. If you were lucky enough to have 4 drives you were stoked. If you had one drive you were a sorry asshole. Two drives made the system nominally useful, but it was still slow, buggy, and left you with the feeling of having eaten an excessively hairy man's worn underwear, especially after it erased the code you'd been working on for several days for no apparently good reason (I don't consider the wrong disk being in the drive a good reason...poor error checking is never an acceptable excuse). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Nov 29 15:17:30 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code In-Reply-To: <200011291923.NAA23420@caesar.cs.umn.edu> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB36D@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> "from Douglas Quebbeman at Nov 29, 2000 01:41:03 pm" Message-ID: >> > >> > So UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code ran on the Apple //? I'm guessing this >> > means it'll run on a //e or //gs? If so is there anywhere the software Ah, memories of my ill spent youth. Back around 1977 I was still a physics major wasting too much time on the math departments computers at UC Riverside, and then this computer lab of Teraks shows up. Pardon my aging memory and bias, but the "deal" as I remember it was that UC San Diego, and UC Riverside were to "co-develope" Pascal on the Teraks. Obviously the deal broke, and in more ways than one. UCSD never let go of the source code so that UCR could do much of anything, but I did make a few trips down to pick up current versions which we "tested" running various student applications. I wrote a few programs, and mostly played around with "optimizing" the code in a couple of UCSD programs like Tank Battle. The Terak muscle and bit mapped graphics worked very well with Pascal, but the end result was a machine that nobody was buying outside academia (that I knew of). Next thing you know the professor from UCSD and one of his students (Roger Sumner I think) had ported the Pascal to the Apple II, and despite the original Pascal being done at UCSD, and IMHO by a LOT of student work, they set up a business with the "new" product. You had to have a Language Card to run it, and it took 2 floppy discs, a boot disc and a runtime/program disc. This was murder on a single floppy Apple II, but not bad if you had a A80 floppy drive or a pair of drives, and downright friendly once you had a hard drive or larger capacity (2 floppies left little space for any application). I have a bunch of books, discs, etc for the Apple II, and I "may" still have UCSD Pascal on some 8" Terak floppies. Pascal was the language of choice for Mac work for a number of years, then C and C+ etc. kind of dropped on everybody. Messy at first as all the header files were setup as calls to Pascal programs in the early Mac software developer stuff. IIRC it was AlSoft that had a program/patch etc. that allowed MIDI support on a Mac that was all in Pascal. I talked my wife into reworking the headers for use with C programs, and sent it back to AlSoft and they used it, but I never heard anything back from them about it. Really POed me at the time. From rivie at teraglobal.com Wed Nov 29 15:34:09 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I suspect that by far the most common P-system-capable machine is the >Apple ][ with a language card. >There's also a thing called a Sage II. >And of course there's the PERQ. And there was a version for 8080 systems that was capable of sucking out the BIOS from CP/M and using that for I/O. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 29 15:55:23 2000 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Message-ID: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB370@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> > I have a bunch of books, discs, etc for the Apple II, and I "may" still > have UCSD Pascal on some 8" Terak floppies. Pascal was the language of > choice for Mac work for a number of years, then C and C+ etc. kind of > dropped on everybody. Messy at first as all the header files were setup as > calls to Pascal programs in the early Mac software developer stuff. IIRC it > was AlSoft that had a program/patch etc. that allowed MIDI support on a Mac > that was all in Pascal. I talked my wife into reworking the headers for use > with C programs, and sent it back to AlSoft and they used it, but I never > heard anything back from them about it. Really POed me at the time. I was told, but have never confirmed, that Apple had the source to UCSD Pascal, and that Larry Teslar used it as the basis for Clascal, the Pascal-variant (no pun intended) compiler used for Lisa and initial Mac cross-development. Then they hired Niklaus Wirth to go from Clascal to Object Pascal. I still think Object Pascal is the *best* implementation of Pascal ever... the linker could determine what methods could be statically bound, keeping them fast, and leaving the rest dynamically bound for polymorphism. Unlike Borland's Pascal(s) [this may have changed by the time of Delphi), you could pass procedures and functions as arguments to procedures and functions. -dq From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 29 16:07:54 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Nov 29, 2000 11:54:11 AM Message-ID: <200011292207.OAA29820@shell1.aracnet.com> > On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > So UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code ran on the Apple //? I'm guessing this > > means it'll run on a //e or //gs? If so is there anywhere the software can > > be downloaded from? Just might be the excuse I need to get that //gs back > > up and running (gulp, I just buried it's SCSI drive). > > Gawd, I don't know why anyone would actually want to use (or like) the > UCSD Pascal system on the Apple ][ since I found it to be so incredibly > horrid, but I do still have my system disks handy and I could make an > Apple ][ ShrinkIt! archive of them and stick it on my server. > > Let me know and I'll do it... > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival Two reasons for wanting to do this. One I'm somewhat curious about the software, and two I'm *really* looking for an excuse to setup either the //e or //gs! You mentioned really needing 4 drives, somehow I don't think that's a problem :^) So I for one would appreciate the ShrinkIt! archives of the disks. Zane From gregorym at cadvision.com Wed Nov 29 16:02:50 2000 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... References: Message-ID: <00ab01c05a50$1dac79a0$0200a8c0@marvin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 1:15 PM Subject: Re: Why is it that ... > > I suspect that by far the most common P-system-capable machine is the > Apple ][ with a language card. Finding one of those is not going to be hard. > Also not hard to find is a TI-99/4A with Peripheral Expansion Box, 32K RAM card, Disk controller and drive (all of these will be in most PEBs you find) and a P-code card and software (these turn up on eBay every now and then). As with the Apple, it's possible to run the system with one drive, but it's _much_ nicer with two. The only annoying thing about the P-code card is that it "takes over" the PEB; to boot the system as a 99/4A you have to pull the card. There is a hack to add a switch to the P-code card to disable this; the details are somewhere in my basement, awaiting a quiet winter afternoon with a soldering iron. Mark. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 29 16:30:51 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: <10011292035.ZM4078@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 29, 2000 08:35:22 PM Message-ID: <200011292230.OAA31676@shell1.aracnet.com> > UCSD p-System was also available for PDP-11's, BBC Micros, Sage II, and > quite a few other machines. I've got versions for all of those. Doesn't > UCSD still have a web page about it? Out of curiousity, what are the hardware requirements to run it on a PDP-11? Zane From gregorym at cadvision.com Wed Nov 29 16:26:22 2000 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) References: <200011292207.OAA29820@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <00c301c05a53$67246e00$0200a8c0@marvin> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 3:07 PM Subject: Re: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) > Two reasons for wanting to do this. One I'm somewhat curious about the > software, and two I'm *really* looking for an excuse to setup either the //e > or //gs! An excuse for setting up a //e or //gs? Choplifter, man, CHOPLIFTER!! [for the uninitiated: an excellent helicopter game where you fly around, rescue hostages, and blow stuff up. Consumed many irreplaceable hours in my youth. Also produced for the C-64, Atari 800, and most other 8 bitters] Mark. From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 29 16:33:06 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Nov 29, 2000 11:54:11 am" Message-ID: <200011292233.OAA03290@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Gawd, I don't know why anyone would actually want to use (or like) the > UCSD Pascal system on the Apple ][ since I found it to be so incredibly > horrid, but I do still have my system disks handy and I could make an > Apple ][ ShrinkIt! archive of them and stick it on my server. Not to mention slow. I've got the P-system disks for Apple as well. I've also got them in disk image format for yae if anyone wants to run them on an emulator. Just the joy of experiencing the worst editor ever made should be enough for anyone to run screaming. Eric > Let me know and I'll do it... > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 29 15:31:23 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > There's also a thing called a Sage II. It's a 68000-based single-board > computer + 2 disk drives + PSU in a small-ish metal case. I seem to > remember the standard OS for that is the P-system (although the machine > would also run CP/M-68K). I don't know how common the machine is, though. I've only ever seen one in my days and I passed it up because the price was too high :( > And of course there's the PERQ. It's not strictly a UCSD p-machine -- the > instruction set is called 'Q-codes' and is an enhanced version of the > P-code (with graphics operations, etc). It's a very similar instruction > set, though. However the user interface to the OS is totally different > (the P-system has a menu displayed across the top of the CRT and you > type the first letter of a command to select it; the PERQ has a proper > command line and/or pop-up menus with a mouse). I scanned the Apple P-Code documentation and converted it to ASCII text, and it can be found here: http://www.siconic.com/crap/pascal It includes a memory map for the Apple ][ as well as the P-Code opcodes, so it's a particular juicy document to have if you're a P-Code hacker. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 29 16:47:53 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: <00c301c05a53$67246e00$0200a8c0@marvin> from "Mark Gregory" at Nov 29, 2000 03:26:22 PM Message-ID: <200011292247.OAA00452@shell1.aracnet.com> > An excuse for setting up a //e or //gs? Choplifter, man, CHOPLIFTER!! > > [for the uninitiated: an excellent helicopter game where you fly around, > rescue hostages, and blow stuff up. Consumed many irreplaceable hours in my > youth. Also produced for the C-64, Atari 800, and most other 8 bitters] > > Mark. Yeah, but I've got it for the Gameboy which takes up a lot less space :^) Hmm, the Gameboy is old enough to be on topic considering I've had one since late '87 or '88 I believe, though I've only had the Choplifter game for it since '93. Oh, and I first had it for my VIC-20 on cassette tape :^) Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 29 16:55:17 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD P System (was: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > I suspect that by far the most common P-system-capable machine is the > Apple ][ with a language card. Finding one of those is not going to be hard. Does no one remember that IBM peddled UCSD P System for the PC? An operating system that made PC-DOS look good! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Nov 29 17:05:00 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: <200011292207.OAA29820@shell1.aracnet.com> "from healyzh@aracnet.com at Nov 29, 2000 02:07:54 pm" Message-ID: <200011292305.RAA24737@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > > So UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code ran on the Apple //? I'm guessing this > > > means it'll run on a //e or //gs? If so is there anywhere the software can > > > be downloaded from? Just might be the excuse I need to get that //gs back > > > up and running (gulp, I just buried it's SCSI drive). > > > > Gawd, I don't know why anyone would actually want to use (or like) the > > UCSD Pascal system on the Apple ][ since I found it to be so incredibly > > horrid, but I do still have my system disks handy and I could make an > > Apple ][ ShrinkIt! archive of them and stick it on my server. > > > > Let me know and I'll do it... > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > > > Two reasons for wanting to do this. One I'm somewhat curious about the > software, and two I'm *really* looking for an excuse to setup either the //e > or //gs! You mentioned really needing 4 drives, somehow I don't think > that's a problem :^) > > So I for one would appreciate the ShrinkIt! archives of the disks. > > Zane > 4 drives to run UCSD P-System? The Apple port must be a real hog... MMOS runs from a 8" sssd diskette (256,256 8bit bytes) which includes the entire operating system. Sure, that doesnt leave a lot of space for user file space, and FORTRAN usually takes 2 floppy drives, but still... thats not a whole lot of space. -Lawrence LeMay From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 29 16:40:45 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: <00c301c05a53$67246e00$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Mark Gregory wrote: > An excuse for setting up a //e or //gs? Choplifter, man, CHOPLIFTER!! Yeah, Choplifter is definitely in the Top 10 of all-time best Apple ][ games (it was also ported to the Atari and Commodore, and probably more...I've seen an Atari 5200 or 7800 version of it). Maybe even in the top 5. Another reason to boot up your Apple ][: Karateka, Lode Runner, and Rescue Raiders. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 29 17:49:03 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... Message-ID: <004801c05a60$1b220af0$2977cb97@ajp166> From: healyzh@aracnet.com >One of these days I'd really like to play with a UCSD PASCAL system, largely >to get a feel of how well it worked. UCSD P-system was tightly integrated with menues and what amounts the then equivelent of an modern IDE. From the main system menu you go fo into the filer or editor, from the editor you could compile and run a program. If the compiler fails you end up back in the editor (screen oriented) with the cursor at the first error. In 1978 that was a truely advanced development environment. >active with Amiga's around, they'd have a better idea). That tells me that >a 486 or lower won't really be able to cut it when it comes to JAVA. Java will run on any 386 or higher, I've done it though it gets slow. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 29 17:12:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Nov 29, 0 01:31:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 868 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001129/78436052/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 29 17:14:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: from "Roger Ivie" at Nov 29, 0 02:34:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 675 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001129/d7a27db8/attachment.ksh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 29 18:09:43 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD P System (was: Why is it that ... Message-ID: <007d01c05a63$149316e0$2977cb97@ajp166> From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > >Does no one remember that IBM peddled UCSD P System for the PC? >An operating system that made PC-DOS look good! The PC version was really bad and sloer thant he z80 version. The only weakness that UCSD really suffered is it was P-system, It was a interpreter running pseudo code than that made it slow (like java). Compared to NS* DOS it was far more complete and advanced. It was plenty adaquate as a teaching platform for Pascal. Allison From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 29 18:30:57 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD P System (was: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001129193057.008d6724@earthlink.net> At 02:55 PM 11/29/00 -0800, you wrote: >Does no one remember that IBM peddled UCSD P System for the PC? >An operating system that made PC-DOS look good! I've got the p-System for the PC. There was also the p-Card for the TI-99/4A which plugged into it's PE Box. When enabled, the p-Card booted from it's onboard ROM vice from the disk drive or TI-99/4A boot ROM. Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 29 19:34:27 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:08 2005 Subject: UCSD P System (was: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001129203427.39a7deca@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:55 PM 11/29/00 -0800, Grumpy Ol' Fred wrote:ng one of those is not going to be hard. > >Does no one remember that IBM peddled UCSD P System for the PC? >An operating system that made PC-DOS look good! I remember it from when I ran the CAD lab at school. It was sitting in the cabinet unopened. I know it sat there for at least two years. I suppose it was still unopened when they trashed it. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 29 19:42:41 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Wanted: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <3A24B0FF.DC02BC15@atc.creative.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20001129204241.0a170018@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:32 PM 11/28/00 -0800, you wrote: > > >Tony Duell wrote: >> > >> > On a related note, the hard disks in the 9154 are supposed to be 20MB >> > 3.5" SCSI drives, but they use a smaller connector that I am not >> > familiar with, and again no power connector. Is there some standard for >> > SCSI that came before the normal SCSI-1 type connector or did HP do some >> > proprietary type of connector? >> >> Are you sure it's SCSI? I thought it was some custom interface. It >> certainly didn't look like SCSI to me... >> > >The drives are HP model 97500-85620. > >The following places on the net show it as a SCSI drive: > >http://www.pc-disk.de/pcdisk/h/2000/1208.htm > >http://nuked.org/download/theref/theref.aquascape.com/hard_drives/h_hp-9750 0-85620.html > >http://www.rdg.ac.uk/CSC/Topic/Techs/TeXDhdre01/hdref2.html > >http://www.mfarris.com/hard/Hewlett_Packard1.html > >Of course, they could all be getting their information from the same >incorrect source. In a way though, SCSI does make sense since the drives >do have integrated drive electronics. From the period, the only drives >that I know of with integrated controllers were either SCSI or SASI. I >thought that SASI was only used by Shuggart. The PC versions did not >appear until about 1988 (later than the 9153/9154), and I doubt that HP >(at that time) would have use the PC types anyway. > >At some point, I will pull the integrated controller board off the disk >and look to see if any standard parts were used. Also, the chips that I >can see on the main board in the drive seem to use HP ASICs (an 84 and a >68 pin CQFP). > >-Pete > From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 29 18:57:56 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: <00ab01c05a50$1dac79a0$0200a8c0@marvin> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001129195756.00920720@earthlink.net> At 03:02 PM 11/29/00 -0700, you wrote: >but it's _much_ nicer with two. The only annoying thing about the P-code >card is that it "takes over" the PEB; to boot the system as a 99/4A you >have to pull the card. There is a hack to add a switch to the P-code card >to disable this; the details are somewhere in my basement, awaiting a quiet >winter afternoon with a soldering iron. The later versions of the card fixed this and shipped with the switch installed to disable/enable the card. If I recall correctly, mine is a Version 4 and it came with the switch pre-installed, along with tape-up corrections in the manual regarding it. Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 29 19:00:24 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Wanted: HP Integral PC In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20001129204241.0a170018@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Nov 29, 0 08:42:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2796 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001130/aca937c2/attachment.ksh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 29 19:43:24 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) Message-ID: <009801c05a6f$278ff770$2977cb97@ajp166> From: healyzh@aracnet.com > >Out of curiousity, what are the hardware requirements to run it on a PDP-11? > PDP-11 (any), 33kw, FDC RX01, Tube or TTY on a DL line. Of all the version the PDP-11 version on the 11/03 was fastest compared to apple or Z80 ports. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Nov 29 19:47:05 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: <009801c05a6f$278ff770$2977cb97@ajp166> References: <009801c05a6f$278ff770$2977cb97@ajp166> Message-ID: <20001130014705.23869.qmail@brouhaha.com> Zane asks about running the UCSD P-System: >Out of curiousity, what are the hardware requirements to run it on a > PDP-11? Allison replies: > PDP-11 (any), 33kw, FDC RX01, Tube or TTY on a DL line. ^^^^ Typo? No more than 28 Kwords, I'd expect? I'm pretty sure I've seen it running on an an 11/03, which won't readily support more than that. Or did you mean 33 Kbytes? From korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 29 20:07:32 2000 From: korpela at ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD P System (was: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: <007d01c05a63$149316e0$2977cb97@ajp166> from ajp166 at "Nov 29, 2000 07:09:43 pm" Message-ID: <200011300207.SAA06893@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > > > >Does no one remember that IBM peddled UCSD P System for the PC? > >An operating system that made PC-DOS look good! > > The PC version was really bad and sloer thant he z80 version. And it really didn't make PC-DOS look good. I've put a screen shot of the UCSD P-system file manager prompt at: http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/~korpela/gif/filer.gif. You may remember what those letters stand for, but I don't. It's the only OS I've ever used that made me long to go back to Apple DOS 3.3. Eric From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Nov 29 20:09:03 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Message-ID: <20001129.200903.-468629.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:43:24 -0500 "ajp166" writes: > From: healyzh@aracnet.com > > > >Out of curiousity, what are the hardware requirements to run it on > >a PDP-11? > > > > > PDP-11 (any), 33kw, FDC RX01, Tube or TTY on a DL line. > Of all the version the PDP-11 version on the 11/03 was fastest > compared to apple or Z80 ports. I used PASCAL (for a short time) when I was in school, that ran under RSTS/E. I don't know if it was the USCD system, or some other thing; I'm almost certain it used pseudo-code, though, as the compiler output was *tiny* compared to a similar compiled BASIC+ program. Anybody know of PASCAL compilers that run under RSTS? Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Nov 29 20:14:46 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Why is it that ..." (Nov 29, 23:12) References: Message-ID: <10011300214.ZM4325@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 29, 23:12, Tony Duell wrote: > > > There's also a thing called a Sage II. > I've only ever seen 2 of them. One of my mad friends (who I happened to > be with) and I got them for a very low price... > > This machine has one of the best user manuals I've seen. It's got > schematics, parts lists, etc in it. And, it's easy to repair because > _all_ ICs, even the TTL glue, are in sockets. Apart from the EPROMs > (which contain a machine code monitor and disk bootstrap), every chip is > stnadard. Yes, they're nice. I have one left -- I had four, but sold or gave the rest away. All the ones I've seen had one DSDD 80-track 5 1/4" floppy, but I beleive there was a hard disk option. I never had a manual, though, nor CP/M 68K. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Nov 29 20:09:22 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: healyzh@aracnet.com "Re: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...)" (Nov 29, 14:30) References: <200011292230.OAA31676@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <10011300209.ZM4321@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 29, 14:30, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > UCSD p-System was also available for PDP-11's, BBC Micros, Sage II, and > > quite a few other machines. I've got versions for all of those. Doesn't > > UCSD still have a web page about it? > > Out of curiousity, what are the hardware requirements to run it on a PDP-11? Just about anything that will run RT11, as far as I remember. An 11/03 and a pair of RX02s should do fine. I used to run it on an 11/23. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 29 20:31:09 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code In-Reply-To: <20001129.200903.-468629.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "Jeffrey l Kaneko" at Nov 29, 2000 08:09:03 PM Message-ID: <200011300231.SAA18233@shell1.aracnet.com> > I used PASCAL (for a short time) when I was in school, that ran > under RSTS/E. I don't know if it was the USCD system, or some > other thing; I'm almost certain it used pseudo-code, though, > as the compiler output was *tiny* compared to a similar compiled > BASIC+ program. > > Anybody know of PASCAL compilers that run under RSTS? > > Jeff I'm guessing it was OMSI PASCAL. In fact I think I've got a manual for that, but am unfortunatly missing the software. OMSI (the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry) used to be a cool place for kids and adults. They seem to have forgotten the adult aspect when they moved to their current location :^( Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 29 20:33:45 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: <10011300209.ZM4321@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 30, 2000 02:09:22 AM Message-ID: <200011300233.SAA18428@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Out of curiousity, what are the hardware requirements to run it on a > > PDP-11? > > Just about anything that will run RT11, as far as I remember. An 11/03 and > a pair of RX02s should do fine. I used to run it on an 11/23. > > Pete Peter Turnbull OK, this brings up two questions. Can it use RX50's (I'm guessing not), and is it available for download anywhere? I can manage RX02 (assuming the drives work), but would prefer to use RX50 since they're already in both PDP-11's I've got at home (RX02 is buried in storage). Zane From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Nov 29 20:34:50 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD P System (was: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001129203421.0322f620@pc> At 02:55 PM 11/29/00 -0800, you wrote: >Does no one remember that IBM peddled UCSD P System for the PC? >An operating system that made PC-DOS look good! Yeah, but the original release still runs in a DOS window under WinNT. :-) - John From rdd at smart.net Wed Nov 29 21:00:03 2000 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: <004801c05a60$1b220af0$2977cb97@ajp166> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, ajp166 wrote: > UCSD P-system was tightly integrated with menues and what amounts the > then > equivelent of an modern IDE. From the main system menu you go fo into > the filer > or editor, from the editor you could compile and run a program. If the > compiler > fails you end up back in the editor (screen oriented) with the cursor at That reminds me of when I was heavily into Modula-2 programming under MS-DOS over a decade ago, using the Fitted Software Tools compiler; it was a great implementation of Modula-2, and it was neat the way one could bracket in-line assembly code with "ASM" (and ENDASM? it's been a while, I forget the exact syntax) as part of any program or module, without having to do any extra work. It worked great, that is, until I discovered a bug in the compiler that only became obvious when programs became very large with lots of modules, etc. :-( So much for the largish library of modules I'd put together... ah well. Aside from the bug, it was most fun I ever had programming, despite it being under MS-DOS. Any other past/present Modula-2 hackers here? -- Copyright (C) 2000 R. D. Davis "The best way to gain a true understanding of All Rights Reserved Wile E. Coyote on the Roadrunner cartoons is to rdd@perqlogic.com 410-744-4900 fly, head-first, off a horse into something like http://www.perqlogic.com/rdd a fence or a tree; trust me, this works." --RDD From claudew at sprint.ca Wed Nov 29 21:17:52 2000 From: claudew at sprint.ca (Claude) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Moonraker MAC card & car full of MAC stuff -- help me identify.... Message-ID: <3A25C6DF.68122A4F@sprint.ca> Hi I got a "all you can fill your car full of MAC stuff for $20" from a MAC shop that closed and had to vacate premises... Several cards I cant identify. I am no mac expert. Who can volunteer to receive some pics of some of these to help me sort these out? Anyway....Picked up several compact MACs (12), some original 128/512 keyboards, lot of Supermac video cards, IIsi, some non 10 year old stuff (quadras etc...), network cards for compact macs (?)etc...could of taken more, got tired and basement just so big...lots ethernet cards for II series macs (bnc)...some cards i have no idea (well a bit but...) what they do... An interesting one in there is a Moonraker card (1989-1990) seems to be nu bus card for video capture -- curious to get more info on this one...I think it was made by a company called WTI or something...anybody know more about this one or wheer I can get the software perhaps for it...? I looked around a bit on net but found close to nothing... Thanks for reading Claude From ahm at spies.com Wed Nov 29 21:54:42 2000 From: ahm at spies.com (Andreas Meyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: ; from Sellam Ismail on Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 02:40:45PM -0800 References: <00c301c05a53$67246e00$0200a8c0@marvin> Message-ID: <20001129225442.H31090@spies.com> Sellam Ismail writes: > Yeah, Choplifter is definitely in the Top 10 of all-time best Apple ][ > games Or as we used to call it... "Escape from Iran". :) > Another reason to boot up your Apple ][: Karateka, Lode Runner, and Rescue > Raiders. What about Sneakers? DROL? Bill Budge's Pinball Construction Set? Andy P.S. Anybody know whatever happened to the Beagle Brothers? Were they really brothers? Or even beagles? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 29 22:12:22 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) Message-ID: <00a701c05a84$21714c30$2977cb97@ajp166> From: healyzh@aracnet.com >OK, this brings up two questions. Can it use RX50's (I'm guessing not), and RX50 run off the MSCP controller and *may* work, I'm not sure of that. >is it available for download anywhere? I can manage RX02 (assuming the >drives work), but would prefer to use RX50 since they're already in both >PDP-11's I've got at home (RX02 is buried in storage). If your set on using RX50s then the question is... IS UCSD Psystem MSCP device aware? Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 29 22:18:08 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) Message-ID: <00bc01c05a85$acdfc430$2977cb97@ajp166> From: Eric Smith >Allison replies: >> PDP-11 (any), 33kw, FDC RX01, Tube or TTY on a DL line. > ^^^^ >Typo? No more than 28 Kwords, I'd expect? I'm pretty sure I've >seen it running on an an 11/03, which won't readily support more than >that. Or did you mean 33 Kbytes? Nope 32KW, two M8044s plugged in. True only 26/28Kw accessable due to the IOpage. You know of course thats the case in most any non mapped PDP-11. Allison From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Nov 29 22:38:05 2000 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD P System (was: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: <200011300207.SAA06893@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> References: <007d01c05a63$149316e0$2977cb97@ajp166> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001129203557.00b8d8e0@pacbell.net> At 06:07 PM 11/29/00 -0800, you wrote: >... >And it really didn't make PC-DOS look good. I've put a screen shot >of the UCSD P-system file manager prompt at: >http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/~korpela/gif/filer.gif. >You may remember what those letters stand for, but I don't. ... For those not wanting to chase the link, it says: Filer: G, S, N, L, R, C, T, D, Q [1.1] Don't you remember? This was the security mechanism. You had to play a game of hangman and win before you could run the compiler. The person above obviously doesn't know the key to hangman is the vowels. :-) ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From donm at crash.cts.com Wed Nov 29 23:21:23 2000 From: donm at crash.cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > One of these days I'd really like to play with a UCSD PASCAL system, largely > > to get a feel of how well it worked. From what I've heard getting any kind > > I suspect that by far the most common P-system-capable machine is the > Apple ][ with a language card. Finding one of those is not going to be hard. > > There's also a thing called a Sage II. It's a 68000-based single-board > computer + 2 disk drives + PSU in a small-ish metal case. I seem to > remember the standard OS for that is the P-system (although the machine > would also run CP/M-68K). I don't know how common the machine is, though. > > And of course there's the PERQ. It's not strictly a UCSD p-machine -- the > instruction set is called 'Q-codes' and is an enhanced version of the > P-code (with graphics operations, etc). It's a very similar instruction > set, though. However the user interface to the OS is totally different > (the P-system has a menu displayed across the top of the CRT and you > type the first letter of a command to select it; the PERQ has a proper > command line and/or pop-up menus with a mouse). In addition to which are Altos 8000-n, Heath/Zenith-89, NEC APC, and Osborne Ececutive. - don > > of Java running on a 68k based system is a problem (have we got anyone still > > active with Amiga's around, they'd have a better idea). That tells me that > > a 486 or lower won't really be able to cut it when it comes to JAVA. > > I'd like to see PERQ microcode to turn a PERQ into a Java machine. I > think it's technically possible, but it's not going to be trivial to > write it either. Not trivial at all, which is why I've not attempted it yet. > > -tony > > From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Nov 30 00:02:27 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Message-ID: <20001130.000229.-3911351.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:31:09 -0800 (PST) healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > > I used PASCAL (for a short time) when I was in school, that ran > > under RSTS/E. I don't know if it was the USCD system, or some > > other thing; I'm almost certain it used pseudo-code, though, > > as the compiler output was *tiny* compared to a similar compiled > > BASIC+ program. > > > > Anybody know of PASCAL compilers that run under RSTS? > > > > Jeff > > I'm guessing it was OMSI PASCAL. In fact I think I've got a manual > for that, but am unfortunatly missing the software. Hmmm, that doesn't seem to ring any bells. We're talking 1980-81 timeframe. The compiler was invoked from the READY prompt by typing "PASCAL FILNAM.PAS", and you'd get the runnable output file; I don't remember if it was in .SAV format or not. Dang it. I wish I could remember more about the system we had at the school at that time . . .. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 29 23:26:11 2000 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: <20001129225442.H31090@spies.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Andreas Meyer wrote: > P.S. Anybody know whatever happened to the Beagle Brothers? > Were they really brothers? Or even beagles? Try looking under the Apple ][ section of the VCF Link Library: http://www.vintage.org/cgi-bin/links.pl#apple I know this isn't the greatest reference, but I do remember coming across a site listed there that told the story (no they weren't brothers). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 30 00:41:50 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: VT420 and DEC LA70 In-Reply-To: <00bc01c05a85$acdfc430$2977cb97@ajp166> Message-ID: One of the scrap places I haunt just got in another batch of VT420 amber terminals. Screens have lots of burnin (not that I found that a problem at all when used, but you can read the old stuff when its off), and no keyboards, but they have the funny pigtails with a RJ11 looking socket (not plug). Also in the batch was a DEC LA70 printer. If anybody wants one or a couple I am "guessing" the VT420 would be around $10 and shipping, and the printer about $15 and shipping. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 30 02:57:43 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD P System (was: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: Jim Battle "Re: UCSD P System (was: Why is it that ..." (Nov 29, 20:38) References: <007d01c05a63$149316e0$2977cb97@ajp166> <4.3.2.7.0.20001129203557.00b8d8e0@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <10011300857.ZM4513@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 29, 20:38, Jim Battle wrote: > At 06:07 PM 11/29/00 -0800, you wrote: > >... > >And it really didn't make PC-DOS look good. I've put a screen shot > >of the UCSD P-system file manager prompt at: > >http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/~korpela/gif/filer.gif. > >You may remember what those letters stand for, but I don't. > ... > > For those not wanting to chase the link, it says: > > Filer: G, S, N, L, R, C, T, D, Q [1.1] > > Don't you remember? This was the security mechanism. > You had to play a game of hangman and win before you > could run the compiler. The person above obviously doesn't > know the key to hangman is the vowels. Hmm.... my versions show the menu as something like G(et, S(ave, N(ew, L(dir, R(en, C(hng, T(rans, D(ate, Q(uit but there are more options on an 80-column screen. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager Dept. of Computer Science University of York From enrico.badella at softstar.it Thu Nov 30 03:14:16 2000 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) References: Message-ID: <3A261A68.493D4C2A@softstar.it> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > So UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code ran on the Apple //? I'm guessing this > > means it'll run on a //e or //gs? If so is there anywhere the software can > > be downloaded from? Just might be the excuse I need to get that //gs back > > up and running (gulp, I just buried it's SCSI drive). > > Gawd, I don't know why anyone would actually want to use (or like) the > UCSD Pascal system on the Apple ][ since I found it to be so incredibly > horrid, but I do still have my system disks handy and I could make an Was it that bad? When I was much younger and happy with my S100 CP/M + Pascal/M (?? the p-code like compiler, not mt+) I always wanted to get a UCSD but never 'found' one around...... e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From enrico.badella at softstar.it Thu Nov 30 03:24:12 2000 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB36D@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> "from Douglas Quebbeman at Nov 29, 2000 01:41:03 pm" Message-ID: <3A261CBC.1DB09017@softstar.it> Mike Ford wrote: > [snip] > machine that nobody was buying outside academia (that I knew of). Next > thing you know the professor from UCSD and one of his students (Roger > Sumner I think) had ported the Pascal to the Apple II, and despite the > original Pascal being done at UCSD, and IMHO by a LOT of student work, they > set up a business with the "new" product. hahaha surprised eh..... not me this is typical in Italy, extremely common. During one of my course the teacher told us that it was MANDATORY to participate at the development a Z8000 cross assembler in order to just think to participate at the final test. Previously, another teacher had introduced me in the world of software freelances so I new that you could make money with software ;-) it was around 1983. The funny thing was that I was one of the persons at the custormer's site that had to evaluate the cross assembler!!! HEHEHE This teacher was really embarrassed when we met for the startup of the activity and I magically was removed from ALL mandatory software developments during his course. Nice thing so I wouldn't have to fight for CPU time on a 11/34 and used a 11/780 at the customer's premise. Sorry for the OT stuff, but I love to remember this memory ;-) e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From enrico.badella at softstar.it Thu Nov 30 03:29:04 2000 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD P System (was: Why is it that ... References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001129203421.0322f620@pc> Message-ID: <3A261DE0.6B1F8B63@softstar.it> John Foust wrote: > > At 02:55 PM 11/29/00 -0800, you wrote: > >Does no one remember that IBM peddled UCSD P System for the PC? > >An operating system that made PC-DOS look good! > > Yeah, but the original release still runs in a DOS window > under WinNT. :-) What is the current state of UCSD P System fro DOS. Still protected a commercial product. I remember finding a link to a company in UK that was reselling it as a Java competitor e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Nov 30 07:49:27 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD P System (was: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: <3A261DE0.6B1F8B63@softstar.it> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20001129203421.0322f620@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20001130074540.030c5990@pc> At 10:29 AM 11/30/00 +0100, Enrico Badella wrote: >What is the current state of UCSD P System fro DOS. Still protected >a commercial product. I remember finding a link to a company in UK >that was reselling it as a Java competitor Yes, Cabot Software in the UK appears to be the last remaining licensee of UCSD's technology. As of a few years ago, they had the only - but a non-exclusive - license from UCSD. I talked to UCSD, they didn't want to grant any permission for me to redistribute anything (even old versions). They didn't want to upset their slim revenue stream from Cabot. I still hold the daydream that any of the other official licensees from the past will find a way to transfer their license to me, and then I'd be able to place more code on my web site. - John From root at bony.umtec.com Thu Nov 30 08:33:22 2000 From: root at bony.umtec.com (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Fire up the iron... In-Reply-To: <3A23260A.462E859D@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Christopher Zach wrote: > Quick bit of status: Sitting in my computer room here at the house is: > > AI (20/20 system, fully loaded with memory, passes all diags) > RM03 (Fully operational, need to dust off and purge) > RM80 (Operational, however currently unformatted) > RM03 (Logic problem in getting the heads to load) > TU77 (Doesn't work, why?) > TU77 (Spare for parts) Question, what did AI originally have for system disks? (I.E. do you have the old AI disk packs or are you restoring from a tape or something?) > I've got a pair of RM02's, a TU45, and an RP07 sitting in storage. The > TU45 is a bit of a shambles, maybe with Dan's system as a plate I can > diagnose it someday. I replaced the line cord ending on my TU45 last night so I could turn it on. It doesn't do a whole lot. It makes an impressive amount of noise, one of the fans needs a can of WD-40 really badly. :P I think it's messed up though, I tried getting it to mount a tape and all it does is make a mess unspooling the tape all over the place. When you push LOAD, it runs the take-up reel backwards slowly for a few seconds, then kicks both reels forwards (with the tape now loose on the takeup reel) and stops, unspooling the first 20 feet or so of tape around inside the drive. I think it wants adjusting, and I was told you need 4 hands, a lot of alcohol, and the ability to swear in 42 languages to successfully do this. If anyone with manuals has any idea what to do about this and can tell me, that would be good. Of course, I might also be threading it the wrong way, but I tried both ways with similar results. > The big problem with AI is that the tape MASSBUS is dead. I don't have a > clue as to why. Diagnostics are very vague, closest thing I get on the > controller is a control bus parity error/8915 bit fiddler error. > According to the limited TOPS20 diags, this could be anything. I think I remember this discussion... Was it ever determined if the KS itself or the drive was at fault? > Yes, I know: 11/23's are Q-Bus and the RH11 is a Unibus tank. However > I've also got a Qunivertor, and it seems to be working (albeit in 18 bit > mode). At least I can fire up RSX11/M and begin walkin through tests on > the TU77/TM03/RH11. And I don't have to deal with the main CPU, the 18 > bit fiddler, etc... My question is, as the 2020's RH11 is modified to be special to the 2020, will it work right on a PDP-11? "Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT "You'd be surprised what you can live through..." -- Anonymous "...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's his honour that gets passed through his daughters. He can see the best and worst of life in his girls. A daughter is something far too precious, and he'll do anything to protect her." -- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Nov 30 09:38:32 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Nov 29, 2000 11:14:05 pm" Message-ID: <200011301538.eAUFcXf05975@bg-tc-ppp485.monmouth.com> > Actually, there were P-system implementations for all sorts of machines > (not suprisingly -- the idea was that much of the system was portable). > There was certainly a PDP11 version. And I remember reading about a > version for the PC (along with the complaint that it could only use > floppy drives, and would ignore the hard disk in a PC/XT system) > > -tony > One of the more interesting was the bootleg that floated past me years ago of the P-System for DEC PDT11/150's. A lot of fun running it on VT100's. When I saw Turbo Pascal I realized where Borland got the IDE for Pascal idea. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From emu at ecubics.com Thu Nov 30 10:09:00 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: tms9914 ieee488 controller References: <200011300233.SAA18428@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3A267B9C.C7F5382E@ecubics.com> Hi all, anybody here knows, if there is any replacement for this texas ieee488 controller, and is still in production ? Thanks, emanuel From rivie at teraglobal.com Thu Nov 30 10:00:38 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: <009801c05a6f$278ff770$2977cb97@ajp166> References: <009801c05a6f$278ff770$2977cb97@ajp166> Message-ID: >Of all the version the PDP-11 version on the 11/03 was fastest >compared to apple or Z80 ports. That's an extremely interesting remark because of two of the rumors I heard about the WD P-engine: 1) It failed because a Z80 could execute P-code faster 2) It was a remicrocoded 11/03 I'm fairly certain 2 was true, but I never did much work with UCSD on a Z-80 (and never encountered a P-engine), so I'm not sure about 1. Oh, I did plenty of work with Pascal. It was just all in OMSI on the PDP-11 or Turbo on the Z80 and x86. Towards the end, Oregon Software (who bought the OMSI compiler) did an MS-DOS version, which I did use a few times. I have a copy of the manual but have misplaced the disks; they're no doubt lost forever. I recall liking the compiler, but by that time I wasn't using Pascal so much anymore. -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From ty at mit.edu Thu Nov 30 10:31:47 2000 From: ty at mit.edu (TY Sealy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Fire up the iron... In-Reply-To: <3A23260A.462E859D@alembic.crystel.com> References: <13598671263.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> <3A23260A.462E859D@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Greetings folks, This weekend I will see if I can find some old friends ( Former DEC20 Service Tech's) who used to work on those Beasts.. I will pass on this Info and see I can get some contact Info from them, and if they are willing to Help... enjoy, --TY At 10:27 PM -0500 11/27/00, Christopher Zach wrote: >Ok, it's fall, it's cool, and I can finally start working on AI again. >With the cold weather, I can pop open a window instead of fighting a >losing battle with an 8,000 BTU AC unit. > >Quick bit of status: Sitting in my computer room here at the house is: > >AI (20/20 system, fully loaded with memory, passes all diags) >RM03 (Fully operational, need to dust off and purge) >RM80 (Operational, however currently unformatted) >RM03 (Logic problem in getting the heads to load) >TU77 (Doesn't work, why?) >TU77 (Spare for parts) > >I've got a pair of RM02's, a TU45, and an RP07 sitting in storage. The >TU45 is a bit of a shambles, maybe with Dan's system as a plate I can >diagnose it someday. The RM02's will work on a 20, bit slower than an >RM03, but same format. The RP07 is in God knows what kind of shape (the >lid for it disintegrated on Interstate 40...). A dream would be to get >that drive operational and running as the system disk. > >Once running, the systems will move to a place where power and AC is not >an issue. Till then, they run at my house. > >The big problem with AI is that the tape MASSBUS is dead. I don't have a >clue as to why. Diagnostics are very vague, closest thing I get on the >controller is a control bus parity error/8915 bit fiddler error. >According to the limited TOPS20 diags, this could be anything. > >So in order to figure this out, I've spent the evening pulling out the >DZ11's, the chaos controller and the Micon Ethernet card. In it's place >I have installed a pdp11/23+ for running pdp11 diagnostics on the RH11. > >Yes, I know: 11/23's are Q-Bus and the RH11 is a Unibus tank. However >I've also got a Qunivertor, and it seems to be working (albeit in 18 bit >mode). At least I can fire up RSX11/M and begin walkin through tests on >the TU77/TM03/RH11. And I don't have to deal with the main CPU, the 18 >bit fiddler, etc... > >Thus my question: Did the tape drives work on AI before it went offline. >Somehow I seem to recall that they didn't, and this might be due to a >bad RH11 MASSBUS controller (as I have swapped in 2 other TM03 >controllers with the same lack o results). > >CZ From kapteynr at cboe.com Thu Nov 30 10:50:43 2000 From: kapteynr at cboe.com (Rob Kapteyn) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: tms9914 ieee488 controller Message-ID: <6D5A04499826D311811100902760DDCF04B14887@msx1.cboe.com> These are still used all of the time in many places (mostly as in interface to scientific lab equipment). It should not be too difficult to get a compatible replacement, maybe not an identical replacement. check: www.nationalinstruments.com -----Original Message----- From: emanuel stiebler [SMTP:emu@ecubics.com] Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 10:09 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: tms9914 ieee488 controller Hi all, anybody here knows, if there is any replacement for this texas ieee488 controller, and is still in production ? Thanks, emanuel From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Nov 30 11:21:21 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) In-Reply-To: from Roger Ivie at "Nov 30, 2000 09:00:38 am" Message-ID: <200011301721.eAUHLLf06311@bg-tc-ppp485.monmouth.com> > >Of all the version the PDP-11 version on the 11/03 was fastest > >compared to apple or Z80 ports. > > That's an extremely interesting remark because of two of > the rumors I heard about the WD P-engine: > > 1) It failed because a Z80 could execute P-code faster > 2) It was a remicrocoded 11/03 > Roger Ivie I thought it was that the 11/03 was a remicrocoded WD chip? Anyone know what came first? Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | FreeBSD since 1.0.2, Linux since 0.99.10 | Unix Sys Admin since Sys V/BSD 4.2 | Windows System Administration: "Magical Misery Tour" From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 30 11:22:06 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code In-Reply-To: <3A261CBC.1DB09017@softstar.it> References: <8763AE987517D2118C0500A0C9AB234C2BB36D@tegntserver.tegjeff.com> "from Douglas Quebbeman at Nov 29, 2000 01:41:03 pm" Message-ID: >> original Pascal being done at UCSD, and IMHO by a LOT of student work, they >> set up a business with the "new" product. > >hahaha surprised eh..... not me this is typical in Italy, extremely >common. During one of my course the teacher told us that it was MANDATORY >to participate at the development a Z8000 cross assembler in order to Very often a LOT of learning occurs when you trip over a crack in the system. Chances are good I would have remained a serious happy physics major, except for one lab report. During my 2nd year we had a lab on ballistics, that included shooting a 22 rifle into a pendelum. Many many measurements, followed by grinding the numbers through a couple stages of equations, then plotting the results a couple different ways. Hours of work, and having just learned Fortran, I was punching cards for the IBM 1130 before even thinking of poking with a calculator. It did take me awhile, but the end result was the whole report printed out fairly nicely, with graphs etc. When I handed it in a couple days late I expected to get into some trouble, but the Graduate student in charge of the lab accepted it like stone tablets. "How did you do this?, did you type all this?" Every student in lab had unique data, so to correct each paper he was spending like 3 hours doing all the calculations, and only had about 3 done out of 60+ students. My program reduced that to about 5 minutes of data entry, and maybe another 10 minutes of comparing the final reports. In return for giving him the program, which continued to be used for some time after I left, I got his account ID and password to use the .... HP3000. By a week later I stopped seeing sunlight for a quarter or so, spending my time in dark rooms with tektronics vector display terminals. Once hooked, there was no going back. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Nov 30 11:36:21 2000 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Christopher Zach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Fire up the iron... References: Message-ID: <3A269015.CC645E98@alembic.crystel.com> The RH11 on the tape drive side is just a normal RH11. The one for the discs is specially hacked to run in what's called "Hog mode DMA". This is where it grabs the bus for transfers and never lets go. On a pdp11, this would starve any other DMA device. On the 2020, the RH11 is the only thing on that Unibus, and the 20's UBA is designed to cache stuff coming in from the Unibus (in 18 bit chunks) and forward it to the CPU/memory in 36bit chunks. Chris From root at bony.umtec.com Thu Nov 30 11:47:26 2000 From: root at bony.umtec.com (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Fire up the iron... In-Reply-To: <3A269015.CC645E98@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Christopher Zach wrote: > The RH11 on the tape drive side is just a normal RH11. The one for the > discs is specially hacked to run in what's called "Hog mode DMA". This > is where it grabs the bus for transfers and never lets go. Oh, OK. I thought the tape one was odd too. I'm sorry. "Confuse, annoy, and DEE-STROY!" -- Jet Wolf | "Nothing Happens." -- ADVENT "You'd be surprised what you can live through..." -- Anonymous "...A man can pass his family and his name down through his sons, but it's his honour that gets passed through his daughters. He can see the best and worst of life in his girls. A daughter is something far too precious, and he'll do anything to protect her." -- Reichsfuehrer Siegfried Koenig, _Matrose_Mond_, David Oliver From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 30 12:38:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: <10011300214.ZM4325@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 30, 0 02:14:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 881 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001130/399184e4/attachment.ksh From lgwalker at look.ca Thu Nov 30 12:43:36 2000 From: lgwalker at look.ca (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Moonraker MAC card & car full of MAC stuff -- help me identify.... In-Reply-To: <3A25C6DF.68122A4F@sprint.ca> Message-ID: <3A265988.27905.4B751C6@localhost> > Hi > > I got a "all you can fill your car full of MAC stuff for $20" from a > MAC shop that closed and had to vacate premises... > > Several cards I cant identify. I am no mac expert. Who can volunteer > to receive some pics of some of these to help me sort these out? > > Anyway....Picked up several compact MACs (12), some original 128/512 > keyboards, lot of Supermac video cards, IIsi, some non 10 year old > stuff (quadras etc...), network cards for compact macs (?)etc...could > of taken more, got tired and basement just so big...lots ethernet > cards for II series macs (bnc)...some cards i have no idea (well a bit > but...) what they do... > > An interesting one in there is a Moonraker card (1989-1990) seems to > be nu bus card for video capture -- curious to get more info on this > one...I think it was made by a company called WTI or > something...anybody know more about this one or wheer I can get the > software perhaps for it...? I looked around a bit on net but found > close to nothing... > > Thanks for reading > Claude > Hi Claude. Nice score. Makes me wish I was back in Montreal. I lived there for over 10 years and still have 2 sons and 2 grandchildren there as well as my ex-. One of my favorite cities tho it has changed considerably since I was there. I'm interested in one of the Supermac cards. I've had this nice 19' Supermac monitor (a rebadged Sony 1950GDM) for some time without any way of using it. :^( Let me know. There's also the possibility I'll be visiting Montreal over the holidays and we could hook up and compare notes. ciao larry Reply to: lgwalker@look.ca From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 30 12:48:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: UCSD P System (was: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001129203557.00b8d8e0@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Nov 29, 0 08:38:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1155 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001130/3453711c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 30 12:57:09 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: tms9914 ieee488 controller In-Reply-To: <3A267B9C.C7F5382E@ecubics.com> from "emanuel stiebler" at Nov 30, 0 09:09:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 590 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001130/faa93c90/attachment.ksh From rachael_ at gmx.net Wed Nov 29 05:42:04 2000 From: rachael_ at gmx.net (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Archiving Amiga floppies Message-ID: <1268.368T200T7622424rachael_@gmx.net> >I'd like to archive my massive collection of Amiga floppies. >I have tubs and tubs of them. I'd like to end up with >CD-Rs of them, containing disk images accessible under >emulation or that could re-create floppies on demand. >I'm so out of touch with what's possible on the Amiga, >I don't know which tool would best handle the job. It depends if its orginal programs with protection or its cracked copies. If you want to backup orginals you`ll have to use a warper, it reads the raw MFM data of the tracks and stores that. Otherwise just download http://ftp.uni-paderborn.de/pub/aminet/util/sys/Dev-Handler.lha and install it, after you have mountet DEV: you can do a simple copy dev:df0 dh0:MyGame.adf, it will now make a sector image of the floppy that you can use with UAE and it is easy to transfere it back to a disk. Or get http://ftp.uni-paderborn.de/pub/aminet/disk/misc/adfblitzer.lha it is the same, just it has a gui. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind Public Pgp key available on request -------------------------------------------------- = IF this computer is with us now... = =...It must have been meant to come live with us.= = (Belldandy - Goddess First class) = -------------------------------------------------- From gregorym at cadvision.com Thu Nov 30 12:58:17 2000 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Moonraker MAC card & car full of MAC stuff -- help me identify.... References: <3A265988.27905.4B751C6@localhost> Message-ID: <00f301c05aff$80139060$0200a8c0@marvin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Walker" To: Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 11:43 AM Subject: Re: Moonraker MAC card & car full of MAC stuff -- help me identify.... > > Hi Claude. Nice score. > I'm interested in one of the Supermac cards. I've had this nice > 19' Supermac monitor (a rebadged Sony 1950GDM) for some time > without any way of using it. :^( > On a related note, does anyone have a Nubus card that can drive a Radius 17" pivot monitor that they're willing to part with? I have the monitor, but haven't been able to locate a matching card. Willing to negotiate cash deal or trade. Thanks, Mark. From rmeenaks at olf.com Thu Nov 30 13:10:50 2000 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Need help identifying the following IC/CHIP - The next saga References: <001801c02cd2$34f54f20$d4ea0191@olf.com> Message-ID: <3A26A63A.4050904@olf.com> Hi, Thanks for everyone who helped identify this EPROM chip. I just got yet another BBK-S4 that works. What I want to do is get a replacement EPROM so that I can fix the first board. Anyone know where I can get this chip from??? Ram Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > > Hi, > > > > As my transputer collection increases, I just received a broken BBK-S4 > (Sparc-based SBUS transputer link adapter). As far as I can tell, the > only broken piece is the firmware IC. The IC actually was broken in > half exposing the actual IC. I think someone was trying to extract it > incorrectly and it opened up. The delicate wires are snapped as > well. I hope that the firmware is downloaded to the chip each time it > is fired up, but I am not sure. The chip is labelled as: > > > > TOSHIBA > > TC57H256D-70 > > JAPAN 8906YAA > > VPP 12.5V > > > > Does anyone know what type of IC this is and where I can obtain one? > I would love to install this on my IPX and connect my T805-30MHz > Xplorer to it. Thanks > > > > > > Ram > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 30 13:16:30 2000 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Archiving Amiga floppies In-Reply-To: <1268.368T200T7622424rachael_@gmx.net> Message-ID: This reminds me - does anyone here have an ethernet card that would work in an Amiga 2000? I've got one I'd like to put on the 'net. Thanks. g. From gregorym at cadvision.com Thu Nov 30 13:37:37 2000 From: gregorym at cadvision.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Archiving Amiga floppies References: Message-ID: <014001c05b04$fee6a8a0$0200a8c0@marvin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 12:16 PM Subject: Re: Archiving Amiga floppies > This reminds me - does anyone here have an ethernet card that would work > in an Amiga 2000? I've got one I'd like to put on the 'net. > Sorry, Gene, I don't have any spares, but I can recommend a very good one, the X-Surf, which is still being produced. Some specs: - 10Base2 and 10Base-T supported - 20MBit transfer rate (fullduplex, twisted-pair only) - compatible with Miami, Genesis, AmiTCP and all TCP/IP Stacks that can access a Sana-2 driver - Sana-2 driver included, NetBSD driver available in the latest distribution - two clockports for A1200 expansions such as Silversurfer and Hypercom - two IDE ports 3,5" and 2,5" for harddisks and CD-Roms can be activated by the IDE-fix Software Available from Software Hut (www.softhut.com) for around $140 US. And that price is extremely reasonable, given that old A2065s and ASDG Lanrovers routinely fetch $60-75 on eBay. Newer Ethernet cards like the Ariadne II sell for $100 or more. Regards, Mark. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 30 13:50:01 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: Moonraker MAC card & car full of MAC stuff -- help me identify.... In-Reply-To: <00f301c05aff$80139060$0200a8c0@marvin> References: <3A265988.27905.4B751C6@localhost> Message-ID: >> I'm interested in one of the Supermac cards. I've had this nice >> 19' Supermac monitor (a rebadged Sony 1950GDM) for some time >> without any way of using it. :^( >> > >On a related note, does anyone have a Nubus card that can drive a Radius >17" pivot monitor that they're willing to part with? I have the monitor, >but haven't been able to locate a matching card. Willing to negotiate cash >deal or trade. Cards and cables for old macs, are a couple of my main packrat categories. I have most of the special cables for Radius and Apple monitors, some SuperMac cables, and most of the Radius, Apple, SuperMac, and RasterOps video cards either used, or some new in the original sealed boxes. Many of the early devices though are FUSSY, specifically you often have to have the EXACT cable that matches your monitor. Sometimes you have to have the matching card as well, but often the newer Apple/Radius/etc cards would support older monitors if the proper cable is used (those darn monitor sense lines). With few exceptions all of the older video cards that do anything interesting break by OS 7.5 or 7.6, the control panels fail even earlier in many cases. A handfull of different Pivots were made, and without all the info on the back I can't really say if I have a cable that will work. Email me directly with the info and I will see if I have what you need, and give you an idea on which cards and/or builtin video will work. If you really want the pivot function in real time, I do have both LC PDS and Nubus Radius Pivot cards, but the control panels only work well with something like OS 7.1 or so. From kylianw at hotmail.com Thu Nov 30 20:09:35 2000 From: kylianw at hotmail.com (Kylian Wrzesinski) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: PDP, TYPESET-8 and linotypes Message-ID: I am looking for documentation on the interface that existed between the PDP TYPESET-8 system and the Linotype electrons/comets (mid-60's - early 70's). Specifically, I need additional information on the output format of the TYPESET-8, both in the physcial sense (paper tape, or serial out- at what line levels), and the format sense- escape codes and such used for formatting. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, -Ky _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From rivie at teraglobal.com Thu Nov 30 14:13:55 2000 From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:09 2005 Subject: tms9914 ieee488 controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >AFAIK, there are no direct equivalents to the 9914. There are other GPIB >interface chips (NEC 7210, Intel 8291/8292, Motorola 68488 (gosh, I wonder >how they thought of that number :-)), but they don't have the same pinout >or programming details. The NEC7210 was discontinued several years ago; I had a product which used them (a quad IEEE-488 board for VAXBI) and it was the deathknell for that product. I think National Instruments makes a pin-compatible replacement for the 7210. It wasn't there in time to save my product (which was just as well; it didn't sell well enough to really pay for itself, although I was informed that it did eventually pay for its own development costs). -- Roger Ivie rivie@teraglobal.com Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation From b.layer at vikingelectronics.com Thu Nov 30 15:06:03 2000 From: b.layer at vikingelectronics.com (Bill Layer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: Moonraker MAC card & car full of MAC stuff -- help me identify.... In-Reply-To: <3A265988.27905.4B751C6@localhost> References: <3A265988.27905.4B751C6@localhost> Message-ID: <0011301506030E.00256@Billbob_Linux> Hi Claude, > > Anyway....Picked up several compact MACs (12), some original 128/512 > > keyboards, lot of Supermac video cards, IIsi, some non 10 year old > > stuff (quadras etc...) I'm in need of one or two 68040 CPUs - the plug-in type, 25 or 33Mhz. Need to upgrade a couple of LC475 / Performa475 (with 68LC040) to run Linux. Do you have any available for swap / sale? -- Bill Layer Sales Technician +----------------------------------+ Viking Electronics, Inc. 1531 Industrial St. Hudson, WI. 54016 - U.S.A 715.386.8861 ext. 210 +----------------------------------+ "Telecom Solutions for the 21st Century" Powered by Slackware Linux 7.1.0 From donm at crash.cts.com Thu Nov 30 15:12:54 2000 From: donm at crash.cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > [Sage II] > > > Yes, they're nice. I have one left -- I had four, but sold or gave the > > rest away. All the ones I've seen had one DSDD 80-track 5 1/4" floppy, but > > Mine has 2 half-height 80 cylinder floppy drives (side by side -- in > other words you couldn't fit a full height drive instead). I believe one > of the DIP switches sets the machine for either 40 or 80 cylinder drives, > so presumably 40 cylinder drives were used in some machines. > > > I beleive there was a hard disk option. I never had a manual, though, nor > > >From what I remember, the hard disk model was called a Sage IV. It was > basically the same machine with a hard disk controller connected to the > expansion bus connectors. The case was taller to accomodate the > full-height winchester (and I assume 1 or 2 floppy drives alongside it. > > > CP/M 68K. > > I don't have it, I just recall reading it existed. > > -tony > I have it as a three disk set. - don From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 30 15:28:55 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: Archiving Amiga floppies In-Reply-To: References: <1268.368T200T7622424rachael_@gmx.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001130162855.00a22700@earthlink.net> At 11:16 AM 11/30/00 -0800, you wrote: >This reminds me - does anyone here have an ethernet card that would work >in an Amiga 2000? I've got one I'd like to put on the 'net. The last time I checked, Amiga ethernet cards were quite expensive still, though things could've changed in a year since I moved off an Amiga 4000 to my Power Mac clone. If you have a bridgeboard though and a PC ISA ethernet card, there used to be a couple of programs on Aminet that would allow you to access the ISA ethernet card from the Amiga side. It was a bit of a kludge, but was reported to have worked. Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 30 16:54:25 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: tms9914 ieee488 controller Message-ID: FWIW, Western Digital produced it as a second source... Will J _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Nov 30 17:05:07 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: Archiving Amiga floppies Message-ID: <20001130230507.20379.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Hellige wrote: > At 11:16 AM 11/30/00 -0800, you wrote: > >This reminds me - does anyone here have an ethernet card that would work > >in an Amiga 2000? I've got one I'd like to put on the 'net. > > The last time I checked, Amiga ethernet cards were quite expensive still, > though things could've changed in a year since I moved off an Amiga 4000 to > my Power Mac clone. If you have a bridgeboard though and a PC ISA ethernet > card, there used to be a couple of programs on Aminet that would allow you > to access the ISA ethernet card from the Amiga side. It was a bit of a > kludge, but was reported to have worked. I still have new, in-the-box GG2 Bus+ bridge cards w/original warranty. They come with NE2000 drivers (along with other, non-NIC drivers) but there are also SMC/WesternDigital drivers on the web page (http://penguincentral.com/GG2/) I've mentioned it before to no great response, but I like to let people know there's still an alternative out there. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Nov 30 17:06:02 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: Archiving Amiga floppies Message-ID: <20001130230602.49851.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Hellige wrote: > At 11:16 AM 11/30/00 -0800, you wrote: > >This reminds me - does anyone here have an ethernet card that would work > >in an Amiga 2000? I've got one I'd like to put on the 'net. > > The last time I checked, Amiga ethernet cards were quite expensive still, > though things could've changed in a year since I moved off an Amiga 4000 to > my Power Mac clone. If you have a bridgeboard though and a PC ISA ethernet > card, there used to be a couple of programs on Aminet that would allow you > to access the ISA ethernet card from the Amiga side. It was a bit of a > kludge, but was reported to have worked. I still have new, in-the-box GG2 Bus+ bridge cards w/original warranty. They come with NE2000 drivers (along with other, non-NIC drivers) but there are also SMC/WesternDigital drivers on the web page (http://penguincentral.com/GG2/) I've mentioned it before to no great response, but I like to let people know there's still an alternative out there. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From epgroot at ucdavis.edu Thu Nov 30 17:12:45 2000 From: epgroot at ucdavis.edu (Edwin P. Groot) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: Who wants a decwriter II? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20001130151245.007bc410@yellow.ucdavis.edu> I came across a decwriter II hardcopy terminal by the dumpster at one of the buildings at UC Davis. It resembles a glorified typewriter mounted in a tall desk. Too big to transport on my bike, so those interested have to pick it up from campus. Don't know how long it will be sitting there. No, Sellam, this is not some sort of entrapment ploy! Regards, Edwin Davis, CA From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 30 17:44:53 2000 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: Archiving Amiga floppies In-Reply-To: <20001130230602.49851.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20001130184453.008db400@earthlink.net> At 03:06 PM 11/30/00 -0800, you wrote: >I still have new, in-the-box GG2 Bus+ bridge cards w/original warranty. They >come with NE2000 drivers (along with other, non-NIC drivers) but there are >also SMC/WesternDigital drivers on the web page >(http://penguincentral.com/GG2/) Hi Ethan, That's pretty cool...I don't remember seeing anything on those before. How much do they generally go for? I was referring to some of the shareware stuff on Aminet that had a driver actually running on the Bridgeboard CPU, passing stuff from it to the Amiga side. The extra layer seemed to slow it down a little but it was a viable alternative for those that had the Bridgeboards and a cheap ISA NIC card. I've got a 2286 bridgeboard myself but never tried it, as I already had full slots with my GVP Spectrum, DKB SCSI board and Emplant Deluxe. I always like my various Amiga's....it's too bad that even the A4000 would no longer meet my needs for an 'everyday' machine. Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Power Computing PowerCurve, 288mhz G3, Mac OS 9 http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Home Of The TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 30 17:55:55 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: tms9914 ieee488 controller References: Message-ID: <000f01c05b29$148633a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You may find that it's easier to program one of the 52-pin SCENIX parts to emulate one than it is to find one. If you do, you may find that you don't need the external drivers, since the SX is capable enough. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Will Jennings" To: Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 3:54 PM Subject: Re: tms9914 ieee488 controller > FWIW, Western Digital produced it as a second source... > > Will J > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 30 18:11:46 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... Message-ID: <003101c05b2b$7bac3aa0$2d799a8d@ajp166> From: Tony Duell >There was certainly a PDP11 version. And I remember reading about a I know, the first time I'd seen it was early '78 on a Heath H-11. It convinced me to get the NS* configured version (not cpm based) as it was cheap. In 1978 what UCSD got me... I had NS DOS and their BASIC, no compiler, no asembler. I has CP/M 1.4 with all the 8080 tools and 8k MSbasic, still no HLL UCSD got me a compiled language that was vogue and a real screen based editor that beat the tar out of CP/Ms ED. By 1978 standards 50US dollars was cheap for UCSD and far cheaper than CP/M or even the MSbasic for CP/M. Allison From yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt Thu Nov 30 16:59:09 2000 From: yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt (Rodrigo Ventura) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: DECserver 200 In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks's message of "Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:40:26 -0800 (PST)" Message-ID: <87lmu1awxu.fsf@yodacity.local> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> I have one, too (and the uVAX2000 w/disk that it used to Ethan> boot from). What I would like to do is fire up DECnet on a Ethan> Linux box and start the DECserver from there. Has anyone Ethan> tried _that_ yet? I have a couple of DECservers here (one 300 and one 200) and I have successfully got them work with solely one linux machine. Here's the recipe: 1. start mopd-linux to make the DECservers load the boot image from the linux box; 2. start latd in the linux box to allow the DECservers login. All these software components for linux can be found at the DECnet for linux page. Note that both mopd and latd do not require DECnet, because they seem to use independent protocols. BTW, I've written a couple of progs from scratch that implement the mop console protocol. I use them to check a couple of DEChubs. I could provide the source code to everyone interested. Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and PhD Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 30 18:17:08 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: UCSD P System (was: Why is it that ... Message-ID: <006e01c05b2d$98de3810$2d799a8d@ajp166> From: Jim Battle >For those not wanting to chase the link, it says: > > Filer: G, S, N, L, R, C, T, D, Q [1.1] > >Don't you remember? This was the security mechanism. Must have been the apple {likely ti99 too} version without the 80col card. On a S100 Z80 crage using an H19 it was far better. I had the chance to compare the two and UCSD was marginal with 40 char, somewhat better at 64 and seemed like a different animal with 80 (or more) col. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 30 18:42:10 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) Message-ID: <008401c05b2f$c3660ed0$2d799a8d@ajp166> From: Bill Pechter >I thought it was that the 11/03 was a remicrocoded WD chip? >Anyone know what came first? WD13 chipset was developed with DEC and is a 16bit microcoded structure. DEC even had a 1k writeable microcode store for the LSI-11. So technically the WD13 chipset came first then the LSI-11, Alpha Micro and then WD Pascal Microengine. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 30 18:37:11 2000 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) Message-ID: <008101c05b2f$b84a4700$2d799a8d@ajp166> From: Roger Ivie >That's an extremely interesting remark because of two of >the rumors I heard about the WD P-engine: > >1) It failed because a Z80 could execute P-code faster >2) It was a remicrocoded 11/03 Z80 was a good pcode engine, in 1978 the fast ones were 4mhz and the PDP-11/03 in the guise of an H11 was a bit faster. The WD Pascal microengine was the WD13 chipset as was the LSI-11 and the S100 box (forgot the name). The uEngine was a failure as WD was not a reliable vendor back then and it was buggy. It did run the pcode fastest of the pack then. The PDP-11 and to a lesser extent z80 had the addressing modes and instuction set needed to build a good stack oriented engine. UCSD was not so much a failure as the leading edge. With the avilability of natively compiled languages that were faster or better a P-code compiler was a weakness. The idea of cross platform code portability in the form of a compiled HLL was a big winner that remains. Allison From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Nov 30 19:27:38 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: Moonraker MAC card & car full of MAC stuff -- help me identify.... In-Reply-To: <00f301c05aff$80139060$0200a8c0@marvin> from "Mark Gregory" at Nov 30, 2000 11:58:17 AM Message-ID: <200012010127.SAA08247@calico.litterbox.com> I have one for an se/30, would that be of any help? If so it's yours for the cost of shipping. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lawrence Walker" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 11:43 AM > Subject: Re: Moonraker MAC card & car full of MAC stuff -- help me > identify.... > > > > Hi Claude. Nice score. > > I'm interested in one of the Supermac cards. I've had this nice > > 19' Supermac monitor (a rebadged Sony 1950GDM) for some time > > without any way of using it. :^( > > > > On a related note, does anyone have a Nubus card that can drive a Radius > 17" pivot monitor that they're willing to part with? I have the monitor, > but haven't been able to locate a matching card. Willing to negotiate cash > deal or trade. > > Thanks, > Mark. > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From ncherry at home.net Thu Nov 30 19:40:49 2000 From: ncherry at home.net (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: Ebay, MicroVAX II LA CA Message-ID: <3A2701A1.A16934EA@home.net> I just saw this up on EBAY, the current bid is $1 and it's in LA CA. I have nothing to do with this: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=514610380 -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 30 20:37:25 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: Ebay, MicroVAX II LA CA In-Reply-To: <3A2701A1.A16934EA@home.net> from "Neil Cherry" at Nov 30, 2000 08:40:49 PM Message-ID: <200012010237.SAA14028@shell1.aracnet.com> > > I just saw this up on EBAY, the current bid is $1 and it's in LA CA. > I have nothing to do with this: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=514610380 > > -- > Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net A thought for anyone in LA (or elsewhere) that might be thinking of going for it. It mentions it's got a TU80. That means that it is either one or two 19" racks. My guess is one rack. In otherwords despite the BA23, this is one big sucker, and the BA23 is most likely underneath the TU80 (9-Track tape drive) in a rack. Zane From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 30 21:15:54 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #440 In-Reply-To: <00Nov28.095426gmt.46093@gatekeeper.ccat.co.uk> Message-ID: <978.370T2700T2556669optimus@canit.se> Adrian Graham skrev: >Zane bashed in on an old teletype: >> RULE1: These systems are for *local pickup* only. I quite >> simply do not have time to ship stuff. >Bugger. >> $ Apple III+ >> $ Lisa 2/5 >> Atari >> $ Atari TT030 >Dammit, dammit, dammit! Is there anyone local to Zane who a) doesn't want >the above and b) has time to ship them to li'l ol' me in the UK on receipt >of some $$$? He can't be serious about throwing away those, can he? A TT030 will fetch generous amounts amongst Atari owners, and an Amiga 3000 with PicassoIV, arguably the best Amiga GFX card ever? Give me! -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Also,what would a game about pimps be without Pimp Gear(tm)? As you move up in the world,you'll be able to buy new clothes,upgrade your car,and upgrade your appearance. Girls that wouldn't give you the time of day before might be swayed more easily when you've got some cash to throw around. Pimpin' ain't easy, upcoming game from Delsyd Software From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Nov 30 21:59:06 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code Was:(Why is it that ...) References: <200011300233.SAA18428@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3A27220A.EA868D2C@idirect.com> >healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > > Out of curiousity, what are the hardware requirements to run it on a > > > PDP-11? > > Just about anything that will run RT11, as far as I remember. An 11/03 and > > a pair of RX02s should do fine. I used to run it on an 11/23. > > Pete Peter Turnbull > OK, this brings up two questions. Can it use RX50's (I'm guessing not), and > is it available for download anywhere? I can manage RX02 (assuming the > drives work), but would prefer to use RX50 since they're already in both > PDP-11's I've got at home (RX02 is buried in storage). Jerome Fine replies: Having never used Pascal very much, I have not followed this thread very well, but I can comment on this question. RT-11 does not normally distinguish between different devices. If the RX50 is DU0:, then the command: ASSIGN DU0: DK: tells the application program to open any files on the default DK: device from DU0: and if the file includes the device name (usually always allowed) such as DU0:FOO.PAS, then that file is used as the source, etc. In general (almost always), applications NEVER know anything about the internals of a device driver - which is why a device driver is used in RT-11 to separate the application program from the hardware and let standard I/O calls to RT-11 and then to the actual device be transparent. A friend of mine uses Pascal-2 V2.1F from Oregon Software in (was) Portland. The date mentioned on the manual is August 1st, 1988. Does this help at all? Also, there is a question if the work was completed, but some parts were made Y2K compliant. Anyone care or even interested? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Nov 30 23:20:04 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: Memory diagnostic for VAX 4000/60 Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20001130211836.029c1a60@208.226.86.10> Does anyone know if there is a better memory diagnostic for the VAX 4000/60 than the 'TEST MEM' that is available in the console program? I've got some 16MB simms and they seem to work (the VAX shows them, boots up after running its temperature bar test) but something that gave me real confidence would be nice. --Chuck From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 30 22:00:25 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: Free 6100 System, SF Bay Area only (fwd) Message-ID: <374.370T1250T3004851optimus@canit.se> I got this on the Vintage Macs list. I'm not sure if it's still there, but give it a try. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Wenn ich ein Junge w?r / das wu?te ich so gut / was so ein junger Boy / aus lauter Liebe tut /?ich w?rde in die Schwulenscene gehn /?und sexy Boys den Kopf verdrehn / ich h?tt genug Verkehr / wenn ich ein Junge w?r. Wenn ich ein Junge w?hr - Nina Hagen -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Steve Strahm" Subject: Free 6100 System, SF Bay Area only Date: 28 Nov 2000 19:41:19 GMT Size: 2874 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20001201/1c645893/attachment.mht From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 30 22:25:58 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: Archiving Amiga floppies In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001128141204.03033790@pc> Message-ID: <964.370T2900T3256813optimus@canit.se> John Foust skrev: >I'd like to archive my massive collection of Amiga floppies. >I have tubs and tubs of them. I'd like to end up with >CD-Rs of them, containing disk images accessible under >emulation or that could re-create floppies on demand. For archiving of files: lha or lzx. For archiving of disk: dms For archiving for emulation: transdisk >It would be great to be able to get directory listings >of these disk images, so I could create a master list >of all the files there. Probably possible with some DMS utilities (I can't remember any names right now), perfectly possible woth lha or lzx. >My A2000/040 is still up and running, and I even have >an Ethernet card capable of running NFS, so I can save >files directly to my PC's drive (running an NFS server.) >>From there I can burn CDs. If so, mount the NFS server and do the archiving to it. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance. From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 30 23:00:54 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: <200011290449.UAA11146@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <1415.370T2700T3606369optimus@canit.se> healyzh skrev: >> Yes the lack of JAVA, frames, no cookies and Activex stuff does limits >> sites available and more every day. I'd think JAVA would not be that >> bad on a smaller CPU tough it may be slow. After all it's not that much >> different than running UCSD PASCAL (P-system) P-code on z80 or >> 6502! >One of these days I'd really like to play with a UCSD PASCAL system, largely >to get a feel of how well it worked. From what I've heard getting any kind >of Java running on a 68k based system is a problem (have we got anyone still >active with Amiga's around, they'd have a better idea). That tells me that >a 486 or lower won't really be able to cut it when it comes to JAVA. I use my Amiga as my main machine, but none of the browsers has got Java. Javascript, yes, but no Java. It doesn't matter, though, since I've encountered about five sites in the last five years which actually used Java, and about two of those depended on it. It's just used for flashy effects, nothing else. >Wait a minute.... I think I had Java running on my PowerBook 520c back in >'95 or '96, and it's a 68LC040 based system, so I guess at least a 68040 or >486 based system probably can do Java. At least on a supported OS (which is >the real problem). That is indeed the real problem. I also seem to recall running Java on a IIvx, but it wans't a particularly enjoyable experience. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 30 23:08:38 2000 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:10 2005 Subject: Why is it that ... In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20001129073726.02f4f3c0@pc> Message-ID: <1076.370T1900T3685237optimus@canit.se> John Foust skrev: >I'm sure Chuck will jump in here, but certainly Java can run >on very small processors such as the Java Ring or the Pilot, >which isn't far from the average 68000. As part of yet another >business I administer, www.ezsweep.com, I routinely run >three Java instances in DOS windows under Win95 on a P-75 >with 16 megs, so there. :-) But what does Java entail in this case? In its purest form, Java is a programming language which may be compiled for your processor of choice. In this case, it will run on most everything. Then there is Java bytecode, which is compiled for an imaginary Java processor which is emulated on your host system. Then we have the entire application kit used for writing applets, with libraries and lots of functions, compiled into bytecode and rendered into a web browser window. This is where it gets troublesome not only for the processor, but also due to lack of the entire set of libraries required. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. Fernsehen ist das einzige Schlafmittel, das mit den Augen genommen wird. --- Vittorio de Sica From gaz_k at lineone.net Thu Nov 30 16:57:08 2000 From: gaz_k at lineone.net (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:59:11 2005 Subject: Archiving Amiga floppies References: <1268.368T200T7622424rachael_@gmx.net> <3.0.1.32.20001130162855.00a22700@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000001c05b93$f2467dc0$0101010a@pentium2> Jeff Hellige wrote: > The last time I checked, Amiga ethernet cards were quite expensive still, > though things could've changed in a year since I moved off an Amiga 4000 to > my Power Mac clone. If you have a bridgeboard though and a PC ISA ethernet > card, there used to be a couple of programs on Aminet that would allow you > to access the ISA ethernet card from the Amiga side. It was a bit of a > kludge, but was reported to have worked. Hmmm. I missed the beginning of this conversation so I'm not sure how it got started. Amiga Ethernet cards are known for being wildly expensive. The UK company, Eyetech sell the Surf-XS card that appears reasonable. SURF-XS Zorro card Sana-II Ethernet card with UTP/BNC connectors, 2x dual IDE ports (requires IDEfix 2000), 2x clock ports, GoldSurfer 2xS+1xP connector ?79.95 http://welcome.to/amiga.world Ironically, A1200 have a greater range of options. It can use a limited range of PCMCIA cards and can be expanded with the Mediator PCI board to take advantage of off-the-shelf hardware. -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide | Team Amiga | Get a real OS! http://amiga.emugaming.com | BenchPress | Get PPC MorphOS!