From red at bears.org Wed Mar 1 00:05:19 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: Symbolics photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As promised: Complete system- http://www.lycanthrope.org/~red/behind/machines/symbolics/symbolics.jpeg The system cabinet next to an SGI Indigo2 for comparison- http://www.lycanthrope.org/~red/behind/machines/symbolics/cabinet.jpeg How it all fits together inside- http://www.lycanthrope.org/~red/behind/machines/symbolics/innards.jpeg The 8" 760 MB SMD disk, with a 3.5" 2 GB SCSI disk for comparison- http://www.lycanthrope.org/~red/behind/machines/symbolics/disks.jpeg One of the 1 MW memory boards, with a pair of 32 MB SIMMs for comparison- http://www.lycanthrope.org/~red/behind/machines/symbolics/memories.jpeg The processor board, with an SGI IP22 processor for comparison- http://www.lycanthrope.org/~red/behind/machines/symbolics/processors.jpeg A billiard ball is depicted in the last two images for further context. For reference, an SGI Indigo2 is approximately the size of an IBM 5150 PC, but a bit more compact. I powered it up for the first time this afternoon, or rather, I attempted to. It blew the breaker. So I pushed it across the house to a less busy circuit and plugged it in there. It works, but the monitor needs to be adjusted, and it has some software problems which I'm not sure yet how to fix. I'm pretty sure at this point I can find the information I need in TFM so I won't bug the list about it yet. Judging by the response to the intial message, though, there aren't too many Symbolics gurus on the list anyway. (: There you have it. ok r. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Mar 1 01:06:49 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:57 2005 Subject: List archives available? Message-ID: In searching for various things, I keep running into Kevan Heydon's now defunct archive. Has someone else made the archive available online? From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Mar 1 01:07:10 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Symbolics photos In-Reply-To: ; from r. 'bear' stricklin on Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 01:05:19AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000301000710.A32451@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 01:05:19AM -0500, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > As promised: Excellent. Much enjoyment was had viewing these. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed processing. http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From kheydon at Solidworks.com Wed Mar 1 03:29:08 2000 From: kheydon at Solidworks.com (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: List archives available? Message-ID: <5936ED1A3F41D311BDC60090278874660C7701@MSX102> It is still work in progress. I have a new location for it and I am in the process rebuilding it on this new server. It won't be much longer now. -- Kevan 'Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.' - Henry Spencer > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron Christopher Finney [mailto:af-list@wfi-inc.com] > Sent: 01 March 2000 07:07 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: List archives available? > > > > In searching for various things, I keep running into Kevan > Heydon's now > defunct archive. Has someone else made the archive available online? > > > > From wrm at ccii.co.za Wed Mar 1 04:16:03 2000 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: INTERSIL ICL7601CPD info needed Message-ID: <200003011109.NAA25455@ccii.co.za> >I just obtained a box of goodies, and these Intersil ICL7601CPD 14 pin >ceramic dips were in the lot. I can't seem to locate any information on >them. Can anyone give me a clue? ICL 7600/7601 Commutating Auto-Zero (CAZ) Operational Amplifier Now you know as much as I do :-) Apparently its two op-amps and a bunch of switches, and you switch between the two amps, the inactive one being auto-zeroed while the active one is working. Or something. Beats me :-) Wouter From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 1 07:58:20 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: HP 2100 documentation request In-Reply-To: <002f01bf830d$d829e120$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000301085820.25875af6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Jay, A while back I found some HP diagnostics. I've had it laying around and I've been meaning to do something with it. I think I have several of them but the only one that I see at the moment is "General Purpose Register Diagnostic for the HP 12551B/12554A/12655B/12597A HP 12602B/122849A/12875B Interfaces for the hp 2100 series computers". It's still in the plactic bag with a roll of paper tape in a box and Reference Manual dated Aug 1975. It's marked "Paper Tape 24391-16001". Is this anything usefull? Joe At 05:36 PM 2/29/00 -0600, you wrote: >Greetings again! > >I'm in need of some printed documentation with regards to the HP2100 or >HP21MX diagnostics. While each of the diagnostics are available separately, >a large chunk of diagnostics are put on a single set of 3 paper tapes. I do >have the tapes, but not the manual that goes with it. The manual is >24396-14001. That's the one I need as this "manual" actually is a manual on >each diagnostic included in the three tapes above. Can any of the 2100 or >21MX folks check and see if they have this manual laying around? > >In the event no one has 24396-14001, I would also be able to just get along >with the manuals on a few of the diagnostics. Those critical ones would be: > >02100-90219 Core memory (2100/16/15/14) >24395-90001 Semiconductor memory (21MX) >02100-90221 Memory Parity Check >02100-90216 Power fail auto restart >24391-90001 General purpose register >24322-90002 Direct Memory Access (2100/21MX) > >Thanks for checking! > >Jay West > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Mar 1 08:42:37 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <20000301004352.A30048@dbit.dbit.com> References: <000229224135.25602547@trailing-edge.com> <000229224135.25602547@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000301081416.0187c100@pc> At 12:43 AM 3/1/00 -0500, John Wilson wrote: >Funny how this stuff seems to be dying out these >days, but then again, if C is really bad at something, it's considered to >be that something's fault, no big surprise I guess. It's a really great >tool for cases where you're willing to lose a little speed to save a lot of >space. I remember at least one interpreted C for DOS on a PC in the mid 80s. We used it to more quickly compile/debug a project that otherwise took 10-20 minutes to recompile and relink with Microsoft C. It had its own IDE, so you wouldn't even need to drop down to a DOS prompt. I can't remember the name of it, though. Sadly, as we all know, the size of executables or memory footprints don't seem to matter much to today's developers. Does it matter that it takes 30 megs or 70 megs to store Windows on a hard drive? A lot of "old" techniques are present deep inside new technologies. Java, for instance. As for the Byte book, I bought mine in 1983 for $22.95, it's "Threaded Interpreted Languages" by R.G. Loeliger, ISBN 0-07-038360-X, Byte Books, 1981. I was all fired up to give a URL with my Amazon affiliate ID embedded in it, but it's not found there. I don't see R.G. on the net, either. I used this book to attempt to write a TIL for the Commodore 64. The book gives examples in Z-80 code. My attempt ended when the 1541 disk drive scrogged my only relevant copy of the source code. I learned a lesson about the importance of backups. In hindsight, I certainly haven't forgotten the value and appeal of TILs. I also think life is too short to force people to write their own editors, or to drop them in block-structured editors. TILs belong under the hood of big apps, or on the bare metal of embedded computers. - John From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed Mar 1 09:56:44 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics References: <000229224135.25602547@trailing-edge.com> <000229224135.25602547@trailing-edge.com> <4.3.0.20000301081416.0187c100@pc> Message-ID: <38BD3DBC.1CC9E7F8@cornell.edu> John Foust wrote: > > I remember at least one interpreted C for DOS on a PC in the mid 80s. > We used it to more quickly compile/debug a project that otherwise > took 10-20 minutes to recompile and relink with Microsoft C. It had > its own IDE, so you wouldn't even need to drop down to a DOS prompt. > I can't remember the name of it, though. You can still get Interactive C for the 68HC11; it was originally designed for the MIT Lego robot design competition course, the famed 6.270. Fun stuff, albeit slow. And limited. http://lcs.www.media.mit.edu/people/fredm/projects/6270/ -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 1 12:10:22 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <38BD3DBC.1CC9E7F8@cornell.edu> References: <000229224135.25602547@trailing-edge.com> <000229224135.25602547@trailing-edge.com> <4.3.0.20000301081416.0187c100@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000301131022.273f97a2@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:56 AM 3/1/00 -0500, you wrote: >John Foust wrote: >> >> I remember at least one interpreted C for DOS on a PC in the mid 80s. >> We used it to more quickly compile/debug a project that otherwise >> took 10-20 minutes to recompile and relink with Microsoft C. It had >> its own IDE, so you wouldn't even need to drop down to a DOS prompt. >> I can't remember the name of it, though. C-Terp was the one that I used. I should still have a copy of it here somewhere. Joe From elvey at hal.com Wed Mar 1 11:57:53 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <20000301004352.A30048@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <200003011757.JAA12887@civic.hal.com> John Wilson wrote: > > I've never understood this. Evidently most/all of the FIG FORTHs produced > threaded code, but I haven't found a single peep about it in the FIST > standards > that say it's an inherent part of the language. I've written FORTHs that did > it both ways, very simple-minded in each case but I think it would be pretty > easy to write a FORTH that at least pruned out most of the superfluous stack > use (stuff that gets pushed and then popped right off) and could produce > semi-decent machine code. Hi I think that most of the FIG Forths were done that way to keep the implementation across various platforms consistant. It surely wasn't the fastest. I've done a call threaded Forth on Analog Devices' ADSP2100. On a 2181 running at 33MHz it can sort 1000 integers in 6.8 milliseconds and that is code written in high level Forth. I did a lot of peep-hole optimizing to keep the top elements of the stack in registers when I could. It also overlaped many words when compiled. Still, it wasn't the fastest compiler. Analog Devices 'C' compiler took the same basic source code and ran the sort a about 4 millisec. Of course, the Forth code fit into less then 200 words of code while the 'C' code took over 1K words. They spent a lot more time and money on their optimizer than I did. If anyone out there doesn't think sorting 1000 signed integers in 6.8 millisecs isn't fast, code it up on your PC and see how fast it is. Dwight From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Mar 1 12:01:37 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Vax 11/785 in N. California In-Reply-To: <200002290408.WAA97722@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: All, I suspect you've seen this, but if not, here it is. I can't get the machine from San Bruno, but for anybody that can, looks pretty neat. - Mark ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Tuesday, February 29, 2000 Thanks for your inquiry about the VAX 11/785 we have available. We are located in San Bruno, California, about 15 miles south of San Francisco. Here are the specs: DEC VAX 11/785 2MB memory CPU (4) 622MB fixed disk drives/qbus ([3] SI RA90's, [1] DEC RA82 system disk) UDA50 controller Exabyte 8200 8mb cartridge tape drive CIPHER streaming tape drive BASIC license VMS 5.3 license Topaz line conditioner (220 volt line) We also have quite a few Dec manuals and books related to VMS 5.3 and you're welcome to them as well if you are interested. Last time I checked, everything worked, but if you take it, it is as-is condition. We are retiring this big boy and want to move it out of our server room. We will take the highest bidder under the following conditions: 1) Bidder must arrange and pay for all shipping and freight costs. 2) All equipment must be off our premises by March 17, 2000. 3) Payment must be cash or certified check. We're not looking for a lot of money, just moving this guy off our premises soon as possible! Let me know if you're interested ASAP at the email address below. Joyce Wright MIS Manager Joyce_Wright@sclay.com vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Mar 1 12:51:22 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Bogosort (was: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics) Message-ID: <000301135122.25602ab4@trailing-edge.com> > If anyone out there doesn't think sorting 1000 signed integers >in 6.8 millisecs isn't fast, code it up on your PC and >see how fast it is. It depends a lot on the algorithm you use in the sort, of course :-). I believe it's in _Numerical Recipes_ that possibly the worst sort algorithm of all is disucssued: "Bogosort": 1. Take the list of numbers you want to sort. 2. Randomly reorganize them. 3. Check to see if they're sorted. If not, go back to step 2. This is a Order(n*factorial(n)) algorithm. I've tried, but I've been unable to come up with anything worse. For your example of 1000 numbers, it'd take (assuming that each operation takes a microsecond) about 10^2554 years to complete. I think the only reason they discuss Bogosort is to emphasize that just because Bubble Sort is the example used in lots of introductory classes, that doesn't mean that you should ever actually use it for anything :-). (Pre-RT-11 5.7 DIR/SORT notwithstanding, of course!) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From elvey at hal.com Wed Mar 1 13:21:35 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Bogosort (was: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics) In-Reply-To: <000301135122.25602ab4@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200003011921.LAA13953@civic.hal.com> CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > If anyone out there doesn't think sorting 1000 signed integers > >in 6.8 millisecs isn't fast, code it up on your PC and > >see how fast it is. > > It depends a lot on the algorithm you use in the sort, of course :-). > Hi Sorry, it was just a tease. I was hoping that many would take out their QuickSort and find that there 500 MHz pentium couldn't compete with a 33 MHz DSP. Actually, the algorithm I used is a kn+c unlike QuickSort's k(n*logn) ( c is a constant time overhead ). BubbleSort is really just an example of how to use J and K in nested loops. BogoSort sounds like the worst sort I've ever heard but I like it. Dwight From whdawson at mlynk.com Wed Mar 1 13:35:17 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <023001bf8328$ecb245e0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <000501bf83b5$45fb9ca0$85e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Jay West wrote: -> The first OS type design project I was ever offered was to write -> a run time -> forth interpreter and complete OS environment for it on Microdata Reality -> computers (subsequently McDonnell Douglas Computer Systems). As I recall -> they had some type of medical oriented accounting or business package -> written in forth and they wanted to make it run (without another -> underlying -> OS) on the Reality platform (which they owned). As an ex-Microdata (then MDCS) senior field engineer I can say that would have been quite a feat, since the Reality microcode (2901s again) was optimized for the PICK OS. The real problem would have been getting any information out of Microdata on the microcode, which was considered proprietary information. Writing a Data Basic application would have been easy, since this was encouraged (the more vertical markets, the better the sales), but the underlying OS code was closely guarded, along with the microcode. This applied to all the I/O code also, since the company wanted you to buy *everything* from them. The only place there was any OS source code was at the Irvine HQ. Even the ROM board that contained the microcode was separate from the CPU board set and was never sold to the customer, it was leased to them and remained the property of Microdata. Upon re-sale (almost never) or decommissioning (most likely) of a system, the ROM board was to be pulled and returned to Microdata/MDCS immediately. This is why you'll hardly ever find an older Reality system in operating condition, although there were times when the return of the ROM board was overlooked d8^) For a nice picture of the REALITY logo, visit http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/Pics/reality.jpg When MDCS closed down the local sales branch, I obtained this sign. I always liked this logo with its "optical illusion". I think it was a play on the old "What is reality" saying. Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Mar 1 13:43:49 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Bogosort (was: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics) In-Reply-To: <200003011921.LAA13953@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: One of my early CS classes had us graph results of sorts and plot the order of magnitude...quicksort and mergesort were fairly even, depending on the "randomness" of the data, and were very close to n*logn on the graph. There were a couple of other variants of recursive sorts as well, but I've never really used anything but the basic quicksort in a real live application... On Wed, 1 Mar 2000, Dwight Elvey wrote: > CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > > If anyone out there doesn't think sorting 1000 signed integers > > >in 6.8 millisecs isn't fast, code it up on your PC and > > >see how fast it is. > > > > It depends a lot on the algorithm you use in the sort, of course :-). > > > > Hi > Sorry, it was just a tease. I was hoping that many > would take out their QuickSort and find that there > 500 MHz pentium couldn't compete with a 33 MHz DSP. > Actually, the algorithm I used is a kn+c unlike > QuickSort's k(n*logn) ( c is a constant time overhead ). > BubbleSort is really just an example of how to > use J and K in nested loops. BogoSort sounds like > the worst sort I've ever heard but I like it. > Dwight > From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Mar 1 14:34:13 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Bogosort (was: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics) In-Reply-To: ; from Aaron Christopher Finney on Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:43:49AM -0800 References: <200003011921.LAA13953@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <20000301133413.B10005@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:43:49AM -0800, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > One of my early CS classes had us graph results of sorts and plot the > order of magnitude...quicksort and mergesort were fairly even, depending > on the "randomness" of the data, and were very close to n*logn on the > graph. There were a couple of other variants of recursive sorts as well, > but I've never really used anything but the basic quicksort in a real live > application... There's a nice graphical demo of 3 different sort algorithms at http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/essential/threads/index.html -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed processing. http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From elvey at hal.com Wed Mar 1 14:46:52 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Bogosort (was: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200003012046.MAA15024@civic.hal.com> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > One of my early CS classes had us graph results of sorts and plot the > order of magnitude...quicksort and mergesort were fairly even, depending > on the "randomness" of the data, and were very close to n*logn on the > graph. There were a couple of other variants of recursive sorts as well, > but I've never really used anything but the basic quicksort in a real live > application... > Hi I always wonder why they don't teach kn+c type sorts. QuickSort and MergeSort are good for things in the 50 to 500 count someplace but even for large data fields, the kn+c will win over a k(n*logn), even if the k and the c are somewhat large. The two sorts that I've always liked for large data sets are either a radixed basket sort or a radixed distribution sort. The radixed basket sort is one of the oldest ( ever watch a card sorter? ). With the larger memories of machines today, even large data fields can be recursively sorted faster than QuickSort could do. This is because, n*n > n*logn > n for large n's. Both, basket and distribution, are of the form kn+c. The c can be large so small numbers of items are not practical. In the code I wrote, about 1 millisecond was the c ( the fixed over head), so you can see that for something in the 100 integer range, QuickSort would, most likely, have been faster. Dwight From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Mar 1 15:32:10 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Bogosort (was: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics) In-Reply-To: <000301135122.25602ab4@trailing-edge.com>; from CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com on Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 01:51:22PM -0500 References: <000301135122.25602ab4@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000301163210.A32245@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 01:51:22PM -0500, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > I think the only reason they discuss Bogosort is to emphasize that > just because Bubble Sort is the example used in lots of introductory > classes, that doesn't mean that you should ever actually use it for > anything :-). (Pre-RT-11 5.7 DIR/SORT notwithstanding, of course!) I remember one of Jerry Pournelle's more lucid rants in Byte, ages ago, where he questions the whole point of the Bubble Sort to begin with. Not only is it an absolutely horrible algorithm, it's not even immediately obvious how it works! Kinda defeats the purpose of using it as a first example for beginning programmers. Insertion sort or brute force or whatever, would make a whole lot more sense... John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Mar 1 15:32:41 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Bogosort (was: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics) In-Reply-To: <200003011921.LAA13953@civic.hal.com>; from elvey@hal.com on Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:21:35AM -0800 References: <000301135122.25602ab4@trailing-edge.com> <200003011921.LAA13953@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <20000301163241.B32245@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:21:35AM -0800, Dwight Elvey wrote: > Actually, the algorithm I used is a kn+c unlike > QuickSort's k(n*logn) ( c is a constant time overhead ). OK, I'll bite -- Radix Sort? John Wilson D Bit From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 1 15:13:35 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Bogosort (was: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics) In-Reply-To: <20000301163210.A32245@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Wed, 1 Mar 2000 16:32:10 -0500) References: <000301135122.25602ab4@trailing-edge.com> <20000301163210.A32245@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000301211335.18129.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > I remember one of Jerry Pournelle's more lucid rants in Byte, ages ago, where > he questions the whole point of the Bubble Sort to begin with. Not only > is it an absolutely horrible algorithm, it's not even immediately obvious > how it works! I'd have to disagree with him about the obviousness. It seems perfectly obvious to me that if you keep swapping out-of-order elements long enough, eventually a list will be sorted. It also seems obvious that if you do this systematically by scanning the list from one end to the other repeatedly, that it can take no more than n-1 passes, the time it would take an element to move from one end of the list to the other. The only other in-place sort that seems more obvious to me is: for (i = 0; i < (n-1); i++) for (j = (i+1); j < n; j++) if (a [j] < a [i]) swap (& a [j], & a [i]); which has the disadvantage over bubble sort of doing more swaps. A Shell-Metzner (sp?) sort is substantially more efficient but also much less obvious. From elvey at hal.com Wed Mar 1 16:23:16 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Bogosort (was: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics) In-Reply-To: <20000301163241.B32245@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <200003012223.OAA16245@civic.hal.com> John Wilson wrote: > On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 11:21:35AM -0800, Dwight Elvey wrote: > > Actually, the algorithm I used is a kn+c unlike > > QuickSort's k(n*logn) ( c is a constant time overhead ). > > OK, I'll bite -- Radix Sort? > > John Wilson > D Bit Hi John Radixed sorts are just normal sorts that you break the problem into a number of smaller task. Normally if you break the original problem into something like the square root or some other root of the problem, it is more efficient. In the example of 16 bit integers, breaking the problem into two sorts of the 8 bit fields is quite fast. In this case it would be called a 256 Radixed sort. Not all sorts gain speed up by using radixing. You need a sort that doesn't destroy the partial order created by the first pass sort. The trick with both the basket and the distribution sort is that you don't make any comparisons, you just put the items into the correct location. You don't need to compare to any other items ( all 5's go in the 5's slot, regardless of how many 4's or other 5's or 6's ). The basket sort on a computer usually requires creating a number of linked list to build the results in. The distribution sort requires one to build a tally of the number of each item type in each basket location. This has the advantage that you know ahead of time where to put the item being sorted. It does have the overhead that you need to make a pass through the data to find the tallies. Both of these methods require building data structures that are used for book keeping by the sort algorithm. This is where the over head comes in. Creating these separate data structures takes time and uses a reasonable amount of space. This was a problem when computers were considered large with 16K words of memory. Now days, I have a machine infront of me with 1GByte and I only use a small fraction of it. Still, this part in time is usually constant and the time cost for each item is small. Since both of these types of sorts have nothing that does anything different ( no conditional flow ), they take a fixed amount of time to handle each data item. This is even better on the newer piped machines because they hate conditional branches. This means that for large enough data sets, k1*n+c will be smaller than k2*n*log(n), when n is big enough that k1+c/n < k2*log(n). As you can see, for large n, c/n gets quite small. So we can say k1 < k2*log(n) is a rough guide for how large a data set will be best sorted. If enough request, I can post code showing both types of sorts. Dwight From aknight at mindspring.com Wed Mar 1 16:55:58 2000 From: aknight at mindspring.com (Alex Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: FSOT: original DEC RT-11 V5 manual set In-Reply-To: <200002292341.PAA08087@opus.allegro.com> References: <4.2.2.20000229144649.00d2f660@buffy.ao.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000301175558.00818b80@pop.mindspring.com> Hi, I have a set of original DEC manuals for the RT-11 operating system (version 5) that I would like to sell or trade for some interesting calculator stuff. The set consists of eleven large 3-ring and one mini-type orange DEC binders with the manuals inside. The manuals are in good shape, and some are still in shrink wrap. If you're interested, please see a complete listing of the contents at my web site: http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/rt11v5.html I'd prefer a trade for some really cool old boatanchor calculator stuff, but am also willing to sell the set outright. I haven't got a fixed price in mind for sale, a well-thought-out reasonable offer will get the stuff. I also have many more classic computer items available, if you're interested please check out the bottom section of my "trade" page (most computer items are available for sale though) at: http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/trade.htm The list of items I'm looking for on trades is at: http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/wanted.htm Thanks, Alex Knight Calculator History & Technology Museum Web Page http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 1 17:00:19 2000 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: VMS backup question Message-ID: I have a MicroVAX 3100 on which I intend to install NetBSD and a 2000 with a trashed VMS installation. Is there a way I can create a backup of the VMS installation on the 3100 which I can restore to the 2000, bearing in mind that it probably has a much smaller hard disk? -- Regards Pete From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Mar 1 17:04:12 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! In-Reply-To: <200002290405.XAA29053@world.std.com> Message-ID: >In the meantime I have RCN ringing the doorbell every week for cable, >broadband and phone... I hold little interest in cable modem as I can >see that loading up and getting bogged down. I think that issue is obvious, so obvious that it isn't a problem. I know dozens of people on various cable systems, some for more than a couple years, and it just hasn't happened to any of them ever. Plenty of other things are a bit of a PITA, but 200k bytes per second both ways is hard to walk away from at $39.95 a month. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 1 17:28:31 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics Message-ID: <200003012328.SAA13652@world.std.com> >Anyone remember these? Are there copies? < Howdy; Last night I discovered with no small amount of chagrin that the rubber capstan in the Symbolics' QIC drive had turned to proverbial goo. Fortunately the Genera distribution tape I used to discover this is only superficially damaged, since it's my only copy. That'll teach me. (: Anyway, I hoped to take the capstan out of a newer Archive QIC and just replace the whole assembly, but they are mechanically dissimilar just enough so this won't work. Enough of the original rubber is gone that I have no indication of what the original diameter of the capstan is. The drive is an Archive 5945L-2. What is the significance of this; how similar is it to other, older Archive QIC units, what interface did they use (it and a similar Archive QIC unit in one of my Convergent NGEN machines both use the same, 50-ish conductor IDC edge-connectors), and how likely is it that this is a common drive? I need to find out what the thickness of rubber in the capstan (and/or its full outside diameter) is so I can begin considering how to repair this. Thoughts, comments, musings? Tony, I think this might be just up your alley. (: ok r. From stevemas at persys.com Wed Mar 1 18:32:25 2000 From: stevemas at persys.com (Steve Mastrianni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! In-Reply-To: References: <200002290405.XAA29053@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000301192548.00b5e5f0@persys.com> I got cable before the dirt was dry over the trench. Its been a mixed bag, TCI is the provider, but they use AT&T for content and Sprint for the backbone. When I first got it, it was like having my own T1 for $40 per month. As they added more and more people, they began throttling the rates to fit more slots, and now limit uploads to 128K. Their first line support sucks, and follows a script which takes an average of 45 minutes to go through. (Run WINIPCFG, check you IP, check you modem, are the lights on, etc). Its still a lot better than dialup, but not what it should be. You can't put a server on the line, several have tried and they've been kicked off. They also forbid you to tunnel, although I occasionally do. Instead of tunneling through the $40 cable, they want you to buy @work, which is much, much more per month. They continue to add customers on the line until it become a crisis, only then after repeated threats do they seem to acquire more bandwidth. YMMV, of course. At 03:04 PM 3/1/00 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: > >In the meantime I have RCN ringing the doorbell every week for cable, > >broadband and phone... I hold little interest in cable modem as I can > >see that loading up and getting bogged down. > >I think that issue is obvious, so obvious that it isn't a problem. I know >dozens of people on various cable systems, some for more than a couple >years, and it just hasn't happened to any of them ever. Plenty of other >things are a bit of a PITA, but 200k bytes per second both ways is hard to >walk away from at $39.95 a month. > --Steve Mastrianni From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 1 18:41:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: decayed capstan in Archive QIC In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at Mar 1, 0 06:55:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1682 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000302/b1d6d6f4/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Wed Mar 1 18:44:39 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: decayed capstan in Archive QIC In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at Mar 01, 2000 06:55:26 PM Message-ID: <200003020044.TAA31946@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great r. 'bear' stricklin once stated: > > Last night I discovered with no small amount of chagrin that the rubber > capstan in the Symbolics' QIC drive had turned to proverbial goo. > Fortunately the Genera distribution tape I used to discover this is only > superficially damaged, since it's my only copy. That'll teach me. (: > > Thoughts, comments, musings? Tony, I think this might be just up your > alley. (: ``Always mount a scratch monkey.'' -spc (Based upon a true story no less ... ) From jpero at cgocable.net Wed Mar 1 14:46:25 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000301192548.00b5e5f0@persys.com> References: Message-ID: <200003020144.e221i6H06287@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 19:32:25 -0500 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > From: Steve Mastrianni > Subject: Re: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Hi! > I got cable before the dirt was dry over the trench. Its been a mixed bag, > TCI is > the provider, but they use AT&T for content and Sprint for the backbone. When > I first got it, it was like having my own T1 for $40 per month. As they added > more and more people, they began throttling the rates to fit more slots, and > now limit uploads to 128K. Ditto, In early days early "97, I got cable. Wave, then Cogeco, then now @Home. My ISP is in process of converting older users from wave and cogeco to @Home. Reliablity is IFFY! Count on outrages in everything from minor to major and performance is all over the map with unpredictable results. Which one considered best back then is Wave. Tech support is bliss and got good frequent tech updates and get excellent clueful replies from clueful tech people and community meetings. Now, silence besides rare "trivial" ok all the way to silly, full of errors newsinfos. Calling their support by phone is now *hideooooous*, ranks same as compaq's tech support to get the idea. > Their first line support sucks, and follows a script which takes an average of > 45 minutes to go through. (Run WINIPCFG, check you IP, check you modem, Being deaf, I have to remember to warn my relay operators to drill through and get live support when calling automated tech support types. Can't keep up with TDDs speed while typing and listening and say "go!" because of bandot speed limitations on TDDs (ahem TTYism). > until it become a crisis, only then after repeated threats do they seem to > acquire more bandwidth. YMMV, of course. Ditto! 1. Newsgroups and email server sometimes go AWOL or go insane at times. Even the surfing the 'net while email or newsgroups server or both are hung out to dry or acting cranky. 2. Connections quality varies from turtle's speed, no better than 2.88Kps all the way to sonic speeds, norm speed is 56K speeds ranges. I have about 8 outrages in a year usually over a day or more. I'm on the LANCity cable modem grey, 4 green LEDs with big 10 fins heatsink case with seperate laptop style sized 40W power brick that runs HOT. The newer ones are white, no heatsink on top. My former old modem cable was Zenith one, what a treat, loved the reset button, 6 informative red LEDs in a row and internal PSU. > --Steve Mastrianni Wizard From rcini at msn.com Wed Mar 1 19:07:08 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: IBM TP730T and Win95 Message-ID: <009101bf83e9$212bcb00$6464a8c0@office1> Hello, all: I got one of these a few weeks ago, and I'm desperately trying to get the pen working with Windows 95. I want to use it for an Ethernet- tethered data sheet display terminal. I can call-up PDF-based data sheets at my work bench, in stead of trying to locate my paper files. Anyway, I have Windows 95 running; acceptably, too. But no matter what I do, I can't get Windows to recognize the TP digitizer. I've downloaded various files from http://www.penwin.com/ but it's still a no-go. Has anyone done this before? I also understand that there are two sister IBM ThinkPads, the 360C/CS/P/PE and the 750/755C/755CS. What I need is a working machine to compare my installation to. So close, but yet, so far... Thanks. Rich [ Rich Cini [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed Mar 1 19:48:13 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Bogosort (was: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics) In-Reply-To: <000301135122.25602ab4@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000301204813.00ed18c4@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 01:51 PM 03/01/2000 -0500, you wrote: > >1. Take the list of numbers you want to sort. >2. Randomly reorganize them. >3. Check to see if they're sorted. If not, go back to step 2. > >This is a Order(n*factorial(n)) algorithm. I've tried, but I've been >unable to come up with anything worse. > >For your example of 1000 numbers, it'd take (assuming that each operation >takes a microsecond) about 10^2554 years to complete. Provided that you have a well-behaved rand() . Most implementations aren't and a perfect sort might not be reachable :-) Carlos. From Technoid at cheta.net Wed Mar 1 19:59:44 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: decayed capstan in Archive QIC In-Reply-To: <200003020044.TAA31946@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <200003020204.VAA23200@lexington.ioa.net> I fixed my qic tape drive this way: Open the drive and scrape away the goo that used to be what I called the drive bogy from the shaft it is on. Find a roller from a printer. I used an output roller from my Epson Actionprinter 3250. The inside diameter is MUCH smaller than the drive's driveshaft. Don't worry. Cut the length of the replacement roller to the correct length or it will cause the drive to bind and that is not good. Take a ballpoint pen of the kind you can remove the business end from. I used a cheap, non retractable bic. I streached the roller over the body of the pen using the nose of the pen as a starter beacuse the diameter of the roller is so tiny. Once you get the roller past the removable end and it is fully on the body of the pen, remove the nose from the pen. Clean the drive's driveshaft with alcohol or fingernail polish remover to remove any traces of the old gooey roller. Fingernail polish remover is great stuff for dissolving the rubber goo but remember that they put stuff in it to make it 'good for you' like vitamin E. Clean the shaft thoroughly with alcohol after useing the remover or if you are more organized than I am, you will have some ACETONE around which is the same thing without the gook added. Place the now blunt end of the pen against the face of the driveshaft and slide the streached roller onto the shaft. Once it is on, check to make sure it is of the correct width so as not to contact the case of the tape or the tape its'self. it should only contact the drive bogey on the tape when the tape is inserted in the drive. You are done and the roller will last at least months as mine has if not for years. Good luck. This took me about two hours to conceive of and accomplish and my Data General 6311 tape drive has had many many happy hours of shoeshining tapes without fail since. My drive is a bit larger than most of the little qic (DC2000 type) drives but I was scoping those drives for a replacement roller and noticed that the bogeys are about the same size on all of them. Technoid Mutant at your service -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 1 20:10:20 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Bogosort (was: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics) In-Reply-To: <20000301211335.18129.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Lately I keep running into people who are using "SORT" programs when that isn't even what is called for. 1) Large sorted data file. Additional records are appended to the file. Then the file is "SORTED" again. All of the "good" sorts being mentioned take the same amount of time to sort the file regardless of whether the content is random, or almost in order. For this particular example, therefore, they take significantly LONGER than a properly written Bubble sort (needs to be written to make each pass going down) for (j=n-1; j>0; j--) . . . 2) Partial display. A search engine finds a LARGE N of results. It then proceeds to SORT it using some "sophisticated" SORT program. After all of the records are sorted, it then shows the first screenful (maybe a dozen records) N does NOT have to be very large for the SORT of the entire set to take longer than would a Bubble sort (again with each pass going down), since 12 passes of the Bubble sort will produce those first 12 records, and the remainder of the sort can continue while the reader is dealing with those first 12. For truly random data, the Bubble sort is indeed normally the wrong choice by a significant margin. But the data is not always random, and the display requirements do not always call for completion of the entire sort as the relevant point to time. Q: For data that is partially in order, but not necessarily appended new records (for example resorting a file that has had excessive manual insertions, etc.) does anyone know of an algorithm that is more efficient at taking advantage of existing order than a Shaker sort (Bubble sort with alternating direction for each pass)? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com On 1 Mar 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > John Wilson wrote: > > I remember one of Jerry Pournelle's more lucid rants in Byte, ages ago, where > > he questions the whole point of the Bubble Sort to begin with. Not only > > is it an absolutely horrible algorithm, it's not even immediately obvious > > how it works! > > I'd have to disagree with him about the obviousness. It seems perfectly > obvious to me that if you keep swapping out-of-order elements long enough, > eventually a list will be sorted. It also seems obvious that if you do > this systematically by scanning the list from one end to the other > repeatedly, that it can take no more than n-1 passes, the time it would take > an element to move from one end of the list to the other. > > The only other in-place sort that seems more obvious to me is: > > for (i = 0; i < (n-1); i++) > for (j = (i+1); j < n; j++) > if (a [j] < a [i]) > swap (& a [j], & a [i]); > > which has the disadvantage over bubble sort of doing more swaps. > > A Shell-Metzner (sp?) sort is substantially more efficient but also much > less obvious. From elvey at hal.com Wed Mar 1 20:28:38 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Bogosort (was: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200003020228.SAA19363@civic.hal.com> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > Lately I keep running into people who are using "SORT" programs when that > isn't even what is called for. > > 1) Large sorted data file. Additional records are appended to the file. > Then the file is "SORTED" again. All of the "good" sorts being mentioned > take the same amount of time to sort the file regardless of whether the > content is random, or almost in order. For this particular example, > therefore, they take significantly LONGER than a properly written Bubble > sort (needs to be written to make each pass going down) > for (j=n-1; j>0; j--) . . . Hi Usually I first sort the new data and do a merge, which is essentially a single pass bubble sort. Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 1 20:40:24 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! Message-ID: <200003020240.VAA21142@world.std.com> Message-ID: <002101bf83ef$1b4b3800$0101a8c0@jay> You wrote.... > Provided that you have a well-behaved rand() . Most implementations > aren't and a perfect sort might not be reachable :-) When I first fell in love with probability and statistics (high school), the first thing I would do on any new computer I came into contact with was run a chi squared distribution program on it so I could find the bias of the random number generator in the system. Then anytime I used the rand() or RND() or whatever that system called it I would apply the correction to ensure a better "random" distribution. I would love to find a copy of the program I wrote to do it. I decided to make it interesting to watch too - it painted an ascii pyramid on the screen and dropped "balls" from the top center and randomly hit each "pin" on the way down much like a pachino machine. You'd get your distribution at the bottom via a count on each final chute! Jay West From west at tseinc.com Wed Mar 1 20:33:08 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Bogosort (was: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics) References: <200003020228.SAA19363@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <002b01bf83ef$a6dbac60$0101a8c0@jay> Someone wrote... > Usually I first sort the new data and do a merge, which > is essentially a single pass bubble sort. > Dwight I always favored the "n-way polyphase sort/merge". Others who were much more mathematically inclined always told me it was prety much the best sorting algorithm for truely random data of more than trivial size. I later discovered that the Pick operating system (and the look-alikes like Prime Information, UniVerse, UniData, Mentor, Ultimate, etc.) used the same algorithm for their data SELECT statement. Well documented in several places, but the best explanation was "Data Structures" by Reingold and Hansen. Jay From mbg at world.std.com Wed Mar 1 21:01:59 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: VAX 6000 in Brazil... Message-ID: <200003020301.WAA08196@world.std.com> In case there is anyone interested in such a machine, I just got mail from someone who told me that he has seen a VAX6000 which is otherwise going to be dismantled and discarded... but it is in Brazil. If anyone wants it, can afford to ship it, or lives closer to where it is... contact the I&T people at 55212776000 (that's all I have). I've asked the person who send me the info to send me anything further info he can find out... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From oliv555 at arrl.net Wed Mar 1 21:01:45 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: decayed capstan in Archive QIC References: Message-ID: <38BDD999.723245AD@arrl.net> "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > Howdy; > > Last night I discovered with no small amount of chagrin that the rubber > capstan in the Symbolics' QIC drive had turned to proverbial goo. I've got four of these QIC drives, Archive and Wangteks, parked in the closet because of the same problem, melted capstan. Havent found any parts or data for them. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Mar 1 21:06:46 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: decayed capstan in Archive QIC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000301190646.009496a0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 18:55 01-03-2000 -0500, Bear Stricklin wrote: >The drive is an Archive 5945L-2. What is the significance of this; how >similar is it to other, older Archive QIC units, what interface did they >use (it and a similar Archive QIC unit in one of my Convergent NGEN The 5945L series is, if I recall, QIC-02 interface. The local used PC place near me has a couple of the old 'L' series with intact rollers. If you'd like, I can see if I can snarf them (probably). They'd be yours for shipping, pretty much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From edick at idcomm.com Wed Mar 1 21:13:54 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: decayed capstan in Archive QIC Message-ID: <002501bf83f5$57d890a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Tough it can require some disassembly, another trick might be to apply 'SILASTIC' to the metal post which supports the roller and to which it's fastened. It takes a bit more patience, but less force, and, once cured, the 'SILASTIC' can be worked with a DREMEL tool to reduce its diameter or to shape it as needed. I made a couple of these in a lathe and ground them true and flat with a toolpost grinder. You can even make a capstan that way, since the stuff is really quite hard when cured, yet more forgiving than other materials often used in these drives. Silastic is not particularly prone to creep or abrade and it's quite inert, chemically. If the temperature varies much, there will be a bit of dimensional change, so try to measure it when it's at nominally room temperature. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Technoid@cheta.net To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 7:15 PM Subject: Re: decayed capstan in Archive QIC >I fixed my qic tape drive this way: > >Open the drive and scrape away the goo that used to be what I called the >drive bogy from the shaft it is on. > >Find a roller from a printer. I used an output roller from my Epson >Actionprinter 3250. The inside diameter is MUCH smaller than the drive's >driveshaft. Don't worry. Cut the length of the replacement roller to the >correct length or it will cause the drive to bind and that is not good. > >Take a ballpoint pen of the kind you can remove the business end from. I >used a cheap, non retractable bic. I streached the roller over the body >of the pen using the nose of the pen as a starter beacuse the diameter of >the roller is so tiny. Once you get the roller past the removable end and >it is fully on the body of the pen, remove the nose from the pen. > >Clean the drive's driveshaft with alcohol or fingernail polish remover to >remove any traces of the old gooey roller. Fingernail polish remover is >great stuff for dissolving the rubber goo but remember that they put stuff >in it to make it 'good for you' like vitamin E. Clean the shaft >thoroughly with alcohol after useing the remover or if you are more >organized than I am, you will have some ACETONE around which is the same >thing without the gook added. > >Place the now blunt end of the pen against the face of the driveshaft and >slide the streached roller onto the shaft. Once it is on, check to make >sure it is of the correct width so as not to contact the case of the tape >or the tape its'self. it should only contact the drive bogey on the tape >when the tape is inserted in the drive. > >You are done and the roller will last at least months as mine has if not >for years. > >Good luck. This took me about two hours to conceive of and accomplish and >my Data General 6311 tape drive has had many many happy hours of >shoeshining tapes without fail since. My drive is a bit larger than most >of the little qic (DC2000 type) drives but I was scoping those drives for >a replacement roller and noticed that the bogeys are about the same size >on all of them. > >Technoid Mutant at your service > >-- >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jeffrey S. Worley >Technical Services >Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. >1979B Hendersonville Road >Asheville, NC 28803 >828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days >828-687-9284 - 24hr fax >Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? >Technoid@Cheta.net >----------------------------------------------------------- > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Mar 1 23:04:24 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <200003012328.SAA13652@world.std.com>; from allisonp@world.std.com on Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 06:28:31PM -0500 References: <200003012328.SAA13652@world.std.com> Message-ID: <20000302000424.A621@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 06:28:31PM -0500, Allison J Parent wrote: > Though DEC T-11 would make > a good forth engine. Sure would ... I had my FORTH-79 running four users at once on my PDT-11/150, it wasn't pretty but it sure was fun! Naturally I used the two LEDs for the NULJOB display. John Wilson D Bit From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Mar 2 00:04:58 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Bogosort (was: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics) In-Reply-To: <20000301211335.18129.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > The only other in-place sort that seems more obvious to me is: Which is the sort that probably 90% of CS101 students come up with before they know what a sort is... > which has the disadvantage over bubble sort of doing more swaps. > > A Shell-Metzner (sp?) sort is substantially more efficient but also much > less obvious. Ah, and no one has mentioned a heap sort yet (aka sift sort, or Williams sort), which has the advantage of predictability (always NlogN) and no such thing as a worst-case scenario, where as quicksort and shell sort both have the capability of being N*N. Aaron From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Mar 2 00:06:37 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Bogosort (was: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000301204813.00ed18c4@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Mar 2000, Carlos Murillo wrote: > Provided that you have a well-behaved rand() . Most implementations > aren't and a perfect sort might not be reachable :-) Just invest in NSA-approved random generator hardware... From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Mar 2 03:41:08 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Still need IBM/Lexmark 4033-001 Token RIng docs Message-ID: <38BE3733.23611F20@bigfoot.com> Still in need of a copy of the docs for an IBM/Lexmark 4033-001 token ring printer server box. I have 5 units to add to a non-profit group's network son and without them I'll likely be stabbing in the dark. Each unit has it's own unique address on the label but I still need either text, xerox, pdf, or something to go on. Any help is appreciated. Russ Blakeman IT Techie Clarkson, KY From macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl Thu Mar 2 03:44:19 2000 From: macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl (Maciej S Szymanski) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: VMS backup question References: Message-ID: <38BE37F3.33DA1A04@pzl-okecie.com.pl> Is your VMS license hardware procected ? If yes you will need new PAKs If not you should trailor down instalation on 3100 to fit into 2000's disk, then make standalone backup. There would be probably another problem - your 2000 disk arangemant may be different, so logicals pointing to those disks (especialy system disk) will fail. I think the best way is restoring that backup on 3100 with 2000's disk hooked to it and then editing all config files. Next put that disk back into 2000 and ATOGEN. But first check up PAKs Maciek Peter Joules wrote: > > I have a MicroVAX 3100 on which I intend to install NetBSD and a 2000 > with a trashed VMS installation. > > Is there a way I can create a backup of the VMS installation on the 3100 > which I can restore to the 2000, bearing in mind that it probably has a > much smaller hard disk? > -- > Regards > Pete From stevemas at persys.com Thu Mar 2 05:14:45 2000 From: stevemas at persys.com (Steve Mastrianni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Still need IBM/Lexmark 4033-001 Token RIng docs In-Reply-To: <38BE3733.23611F20@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000302060952.00b608f0@persys.com> The only thing I could find listed was the 16 page hardware and maintenance manual for 4033 LAN printers. It will take a few days to get here. The last update to this doc was in '92, so I hope it will help. I will send you a private email with my phone number, I'm afraid posting here would be unwise.... --Steve At 03:41 AM 3/2/00 -0600, you wrote: >Still in need of a copy of the docs for an IBM/Lexmark 4033-001 token >ring printer server box. I have 5 units to add to a non-profit group's >network son and without them I'll likely be stabbing in the dark. Each >unit has it's own unique address on the label but I still need either >text, xerox, pdf, or something to go on. Any help is appreciated. > >Russ Blakeman >IT Techie >Clarkson, KY --Steve Mastrianni From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Mar 2 05:00:12 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Announcing the San Gabriel Valley Classic Computer Enthusiasts Group! Message-ID: Hello listers, I am very proud to announce that I have fulfilled one of my goals for the new year, which was the creation of a local enthusiasts group dedicated to restoring and preserving classic technology. Presenting... The San Gabriel Valley Classic Computer Enthusiasts! Please visit us at: http://www.retrobytes.org Since this is mostly my effort at this time, much of the immediate content is directly copied from my personal site (pinout collection, hacks, repair tips, scans of documentation). But I, and our few charter members, are looking forward to being able to provide both a valuable online resource to the classic computer collecting community and a base of contact and fellowship for our local (southern california) collectors/enthusiasts. I just wanted to also say thank you to the members of this list for helping me develop a hobby that has been not only educational, but extremely rewarding and fun to boot. I owe much to you all and deeply appreciate the willingness to freely share knowledge and advice that defines this group. Cheers, Aaron From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Mar 2 05:08:13 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Cipher F880 docs online! (most of them...) Message-ID: Hi, After having so many people interested in the Cypher F880 op/maintenance manual, I spent a couple of hours scanning it tonight (er...last night), and put it online: http://www.retrobytes.org/docs/cipher/ I indicated "most of them" in the subject because I haven't found a satisfactory way to scan the engineering diagrams, which include schematics and detailed breakdowns, yet. They are 11" x 17" and are very finely detailed. My Ricoh IS430 will only scan that large at a max 400dpi, which is still too coarse to show the details legibly (esp. the schematics) and I think my solution is going to be to scan them in 2 letter-size pieces at 600dpi. Also, in scanning the illustrated parts breakdown figures, many of which are also 11" x 17", I scanned them as 2 8.5" 11" pages and included them inline in the proper section. I have, however, also provided them seperately in their original 11" x 17" form as well, you can't miss 'em. I'll try to get the engineering figures up tomorrow; in the meantime, hope this stuff helps someone! Cheers, Aaron From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Mar 2 05:57:13 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:58 2005 Subject: Announcing the San Gabriel Valley Classic Computer Enthusiasts Group! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hello listers, > >I am very proud to announce that I have fulfilled one of my goals for the >new year, which was the creation of a local enthusiasts group dedicated >to restoring and preserving classic technology. Presenting... > >The San Gabriel Valley Classic Computer Enthusiasts! Please visit us at: > >http://www.retrobytes.org Great job, I especially like the text friendly nature of it. I have a few links to send to you when I get them together. How about trying to setup some kind of meeting coincident with either Cal Poly Pomona or TRW hamfests? From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 2 08:33:03 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <20000302000424.A621@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > > Though DEC T-11 would make > > a good forth engine. > > Sure would ... I had my FORTH-79 running four users at once on my PDT-11/150, > it wasn't pretty but it sure was fun! Naturally I used the two LEDs for the > NULJOB display. This has appeal as I have info on the T-11 and would love to build a system around it but not have to be locked to DEC IO configs as that complicates the design. Doing a 28kw system with boot Eprom with that chips is trivial, the io gets to be a pain if you want to run DEC software. However, running non-DEC has some appeal to the but there are few things that source level stuff (other than unix) is available for. Allison From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Mar 2 12:00:15 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Announcing the San Gabriel Valley Classic Computer Enthusiasts Group! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Mike. I'd really appreciate any kind of contributions at all, send 'em my way! Depending on interest, it'd be great to be able set up a meeting to trade/brag/eat...though I think that's already been working just fine without any help. One thing I'd really like to do is have a space at CalPoly every month so that people could just bring one or two things to trade/sell without having to worry about the hassle of getting their own spot. Any ideas on cost/restriction? I seem to recall that it's open to anyone, for something like $10-$15 a spot? I wouldn't mind having an occasional "classic computing barbecue" though; maybe I'd actually get to use that pool table in the garage. To tell you the truth, what I'm really hoping to have come out of "legitimization" is to create a name presence in the area associated with restoring and collecting old computers; i.e., an entity that's willing to pick up and find good homes for equipment that's getting thrown away. I found an XT in a dumpster (I saw the monitor cable hanging out first, honest) right on Alosta Ave this past weekend, with a dented case and broken CRT. Ok, it's an XT, granted, but I'd like to have even 1 in 100 people in that situation say, "You know, there was this group of guys at the CalPoly swapmeet that might want this stuff." My other immediate plan, in the works right now, is to make up a "Computer Rescue Alert" flyer and mail it out to all these industrial/engineering places throughout Irwindale/Industry/etc, offering to haul away and clean up after any ancient hardware they might be decomissioning. Last, but not least, I'm going to create an adoption registry for anyone interested, where a mail list is notified when a system comes into our posession and needs a home. Aaron On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > > Great job, I especially like the text friendly nature of it. I have a few > links to send to you when I get them together. > > How about trying to setup some kind of meeting coincident with either Cal > Poly Pomona or TRW hamfests? > > From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Mar 2 12:23:05 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Announcing the San Gabriel Valley Classic Computer Enthusiasts Group! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201bf8474$5aa1f720$aae3dfd0@cobweb.net> Aaron, Is the pun intentional or just one of those times where the brain chose the most appropriate phrase? Nevertheless, it's a good one. Bill Aaron wrote: I just wanted to also say thank you to the members of this list for helping me develop a hobby that has been not only educational, but extremely rewarding and fun to boot. I owe much to you all and deeply appreciate the willingness to freely share knowledge and advice that defines this group. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Mar 2 12:27:18 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Oops...that "reply to" thing... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, I did mean for that last message to go to Mike directly... From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Mar 2 12:50:18 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Announcing the San Gabriel Valley Classic Computer Enthusiasts Group! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.20000302104923.048722d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> > ... extremely rewarding and fun to boot. ROTFL! I don't know if the pun was intended but I love it! --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 2 12:58:52 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: While trying to dig up some info on some Mac hardware, I ran across the following web page of early mac clones (over 10 years old). Some interesting stuff there. http://lowendmac.net/firstclones.shtml Unitron Mac512, circa 1985 McMobile, 1986-89 Outbound Laptop, Portable, 1989-91 Atari ST & Magic Sac Colby WalkMac, circa 1989 Dynamac, 1988-89 Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Mar 2 13:15:03 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Announcing the San Gabriel Valley Classic Computer Enthusiasts Group! In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000302104923.048722d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: Thanks, guys...now I have a Kraftwerk song stuck in my head... (it was actually completely unintentional, but kind of funny reading it again...) On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > ... extremely rewarding and fun to boot. > > ROTFL! I don't know if the pun was intended but I love it! > --Chuck > > From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Mar 2 13:19:36 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Am2901 sbc, WAS: A classic classiccmp day... References: Message-ID: <006201bf847c$4b35ee60$1224fea9@dymesip> For those not faint at heart ...................... I've got 4 * AMD2903 + 1*AMD2910+1*TRW1010 (Muliplier-CHIP) And a few fancy Motorola synchronic "uart's" (MC2652L2) For the price of $0,00 + Postage & handling (from the Netherlands) + Pictures of the brewing results Sipke de Wal chances are very slim I'll ever get to them myself...... ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 10:38 PM Subject: Re: Am2901 sbc, WAS: A classic classiccmp day... > > > > > From: Tony Duell > > <> >Any other AM29xx chips on it, like a 2909 or 2910 sequencer? Or is this > > <> >just a demo board for a 4-bit ALU chip? > > <> > > > <> >It sounds like a really interesting find, though. The 29xx series chips > > <> >were interesting devices that have been used in all sorts of machines. > > <> > > <> > > <> Yep, there is a 2909 on board too.... > > < > > > > > > > How small depends on the microcode. It could easily be PDP8 or Nova > > He said _a_ 2909. That implies a 4 bit microcode address, which limits it > to 16 locations. 16 micorocode words and a 4 bit ALU is a small processor > IMHO. And being an AMD design they won't have simply concatenated an > 'instruction' from external memory (which this board probably doesn't > have anyway) with those 4 bits. > > For people who've not come across the AMD sequencer chips, they're quite > nice, and even have things like a return stack (about 4 levels IIRC) to > allow for subroutines in the microcode. > > The 2909 and 2911 are very similar. They provide a 4 bit 'slice' of the > microcode address logic -- program counter, subroutine stack, etc. You > can cascade them to make as wide an address as you like. The difference > between these 2 chips is minor -- IIRC, one of them has separate pins for > inputs that are combined on the other one, and also has inputs that are > ORed with the address output. > > The 2910 is essentially 3 2909s together with some glue logic in a single > chip. If you only need 4K of control store it's a nice chip _but it can't > be extended to give more bits without kludging_. Three rivers made that > mistake on the PERQ -- the first PERQ had 4K of control store and used a > 2910, all later models had 16K and used a 2910 and a '2 bit kludge' (pun > intended!). > > -tony > From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu Mar 2 14:05:18 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <022c01bf8482$a2328ce0$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> One notable emulator/clone they missed was the Amax by ReadySoft for the Amiga. It was a slim grey box that contained sockets for the Mac 512K ROMs (not included) and connected to the Amiga's parallel port (IIRC). It also had a Mac floppy drive connector on the box, so you could attach Mac drives. The early versions were very finicky about the Mac drives that were used. Early 400K drives didn't work, and non-Apple 800K drives didn't work either. When running, it could use all of the Amiga drives and common peripherals (printers, modems, etc.) I believe it was fairly successful - it went through at least 4 hardware versions that I'm aware of, ending with the Amax IV. I was an early purchaser, and I always enjoyed showing off my Amiga with DeluxePaint II open in one window, WordPerfect for DOS in another window (I had an XT bridgeboard), and the Mac desktop in a third window. The best of all worlds, almost. Cheers, Mark. -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, March 02, 2000 12:45 PM Subject: Early Mac Clones >While trying to dig up some info on some Mac hardware, I ran across the >following web page of early mac clones (over 10 years old). Some >interesting stuff there. > >http://lowendmac.net/firstclones.shtml >Unitron Mac512, circa 1985 >McMobile, 1986-89 >Outbound Laptop, Portable, 1989-91 >Atari ST & Magic Sac >Colby WalkMac, circa 1989 >Dynamac, 1988-89 > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Mar 2 14:07:11 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics References: <200003010010.TAA09514@world.std.com> Message-ID: <00e801bf8482$e56b69a0$1224fea9@dymesip> There is a ByteBook on the subject by R. G. Loeliger "Threaded Interpretive Languages" ISBN 0-07-038360-X This is for the 8080 / Z80 platform but the principles applie universaly Sipke de Wal. ----- Original Message ----- From: Allison J Parent To: Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 1:10 AM Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics > To drag this in a different direction since the LISP discussion brought > a few memory frags to the surface... > > Forth, LISP, PostScript and a few others I'll leave others to name > were all similar in that they were stack oriented languages. I never > worked with them much save for Postscript (it's core is Forth to me). > > Now, I vaguely remember a series of articles in Kilobaud, Dr Dobbs or > maybe Byte on constructing your own forth like language in the early 80s. > Anyone remember these? Are there copies? > > > Allison > > From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Mar 2 14:16:47 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: INTERSIL ICL7601CPD info needed References: <200003011109.NAA25455@ccii.co.za> Message-ID: <012801bf8484$3ca59fa0$1224fea9@dymesip> Sounds like a kinda chopper-amp. This is way using a DC-AMP in pulse fashion to avoid thermal drift of the amplifier. It was mainly used getting stable data in instrumentation using thermopcouplers. Sipke de Wal ----- Original Message ----- From: Wouter de Waal To: Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 11:16 AM Subject: Re: INTERSIL ICL7601CPD info needed > >I just obtained a box of goodies, and these Intersil ICL7601CPD 14 pin > >ceramic dips were in the lot. I can't seem to locate any information on > >them. Can anyone give me a clue? > > ICL 7600/7601 > Commutating Auto-Zero (CAZ) Operational Amplifier > > Now you know as much as I do :-) > > Apparently its two op-amps and a bunch of switches, and you > switch between the two amps, the inactive one being auto-zeroed > while the active one is working. Or something. Beats me :-) > > Wouter > > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Mar 2 14:47:53 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Need RS6K help In-Reply-To: <015001bf832b$1afbb880$9fe993c3@proteus> from Peter Pachla at "Mar 1, 2000 02:54:06 am" Message-ID: <200003022047.PAA28250@bg-tc-ppp805.monmouth.com> > Hi, I've just gotten hold of an RS/6000 which appears to be a model 520 > (7013?). > > Since the thing appears to be a server (POWERserver?), and thus has no > display adapter, I need to get hold of at least one of the 10-pin to 25-pin > serial port converter cables. > > Can anyone, preferably in the UK, help please? > > Also, does anyone know where I can track down a set of AIX 3.1.0 manuals - > printed or electronic form? > > > TTFN - Pete. > > -- > Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. > Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > > peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk Are you sure there's no video cable. The 7013's (5x0 models -- 520/530/550/580/590) often had a video card for IBM fixed frequency monitors--at least the one's I had did.) The serial ports weren't 10 pin on anythin IBM had that I saw. They used 9 and 25 pin ports. Bill From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Mar 2 15:19:43 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Reverse-engineering for the computer collector Message-ID: <000302161943.25602c02@trailing-edge.com> I've recently put some effort into reverse engineering several PAL's and other (slightly) more complex programmable logic devices that have had their security fuse blown. Would folks here be interested in a general summary of the methods, pointers to tools and hardware, etc? This *isn't* rocket science, and it isn't putting the device in the output end of a particle accelerator either :-). What I've done here so far involves simple scanning circuits constructed from common-as-dirt parts, and software to process the results of the scans. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Mar 2 15:21:10 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Announcing the San Gabriel Valley Classic Computer Enthusiasts Group! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >To tell you the truth, what I'm really hoping to have come out of >"legitimization" is to create a name presence in the area associated with >restoring and collecting old computers; i.e., an entity that's willing to >pick up and find good homes for equipment that's getting thrown away. I You are about to pull a kitties tail, and I bet the cat has black and orange stripes and weighs 700 pounds. Truck, preferably with a liftgate and some serious storage space are the items I would put near the top of your list, saving the topmost for what exactly is to be done with what you get? For example that ASR33 we left last time, but in general most of the hamfest guys have items they would be glad to find good homes for. Once word gets out that you will be at the hamfest each time, stuff will start piling up at your space (maybe not til 11:30, but piling up none the less). From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 2 15:53:13 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Reverse-engineering for the computer collector Message-ID: <002501bf8491$b7ec3c20$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, I'd certainly be interested in seeing what you've done. I've put some effort into this sort of thing as well, though I've done it with the printer port on an ad-hoc basis alone. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: CLASSICCMP@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, March 02, 2000 2:31 PM Subject: Reverse-engineering for the computer collector >I've recently put some effort into reverse engineering several >PAL's and other (slightly) more complex programmable logic devices >that have had their security fuse blown. Would folks here be >interested in a general summary of the methods, pointers to >tools and hardware, etc? > >This *isn't* rocket science, and it isn't putting the device in the >output end of a particle accelerator either :-). What I've done >here so far involves simple scanning circuits constructed from >common-as-dirt parts, and software to process the results of the scans. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 2 15:17:17 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: teletype photos wanted Message-ID: <20000302211717.25681.qmail@brouhaha.com> Someone recently emailed asking me for help identifying a teletype, but unfortunately didn't supply any useful information. I thought maybe I could find some photos online, but ask.com and google didn't turn up anything. Has anyone seen an online collection of photos? I'm sure there are some good ASR-33 photos somewhere, but ideally it would be nice to find photos of other models as well. Thanks! Eric From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Mar 2 16:13:42 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Reverse-engineering for the computer collector In-Reply-To: <000302161943.25602c02@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >I've recently put some effort into reverse engineering several >PAL's and other (slightly) more complex programmable logic devices >that have had their security fuse blown. Would folks here be >interested in a general summary of the methods, pointers to >tools and hardware, etc? Sure, don't be a tease, tell all. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 2 15:33:33 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: teletype photos wanted In-Reply-To: <20000302211717.25681.qmail@brouhaha.com> (message from Eric Smith on 2 Mar 2000 21:17:17 -0000) References: <20000302211717.25681.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000302213333.25788.qmail@brouhaha.com> Earlier this afternoon I wrote: > Someone recently emailed asking me for help identifying a teletype, > but unfortunately didn't supply any useful information. He's now determined that it's a model 28. But it would still be nice to find a collection of photos of teletypes. And for that matter, Flexowriters, Creeds, DECwriters, etc. I'm still hoping to find an LA30 DECwriter someday (as opposed to the much more common LA36 DECwriter II or LA120 DECwriter III). Cheers, Eric From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Mar 2 16:30:53 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: teletype photos wanted Message-ID: <000302173053.25602c02@trailing-edge.com> >But it would still be nice to find a collection of photos of teletypes. >And for that matter, Flexowriters, Creeds, DECwriters, etc. The ARRL used to have a book that dealt with RTTY equipment. I believe the title was something along the lines of "Special Communications Techniques for the Radio Amateur". The 1960's and 1970's editions of this book had good info on the various Teletype and Creed machines, specifically on the Baudot models, and also some information on the ASCII models (realize that hams weren't allowed to use ASCII over the air until sometime in the 1980's). The pictures weren't top-notch (they were generally pretty poor halftones) but there were some. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Mar 2 16:39:00 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: teletype photos wanted Message-ID: <000302173900.25602c02@trailing-edge.com> >ASCII models (realize that hams weren't allowed to use ASCII over the >air until sometime in the 1980's). Before anyone corrects me, I now realize that I should've said "US hams" :-) Tim. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Mar 2 17:14:12 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: teletype photos wanted In-Reply-To: <20000302211717.25681.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 2 Mar 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > Someone recently emailed asking me for help identifying a teletype, > but unfortunately didn't supply any useful information. I thought maybe > I could find some photos online, but ask.com and google didn't turn up > anything. Has anyone seen an online collection of photos? I'm sure there > are some good ASR-33 photos somewhere, but ideally it would be nice to > find photos of other models as well. Well... there are three or four models on the 'I/O Devices' page on my site... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 2 17:10:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Reverse-engineering for the computer collector In-Reply-To: <000302161943.25602c02@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Mar 2, 0 04:19:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 362 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000302/aa55167b/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 2 18:17:03 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Reverse-engineering for the computer collector In-Reply-To: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com "Reverse-engineering for the computer collector" (Mar 2, 16:19) References: <000302161943.25602c02@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <10003030017.ZM2572@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 2, 16:19, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I've recently put some effort into reverse engineering several > PAL's and other (slightly) more complex programmable logic devices > that have had their security fuse blown. Would folks here be > interested in a general summary of the methods, pointers to > tools and hardware, etc? I certainly would -- I have a couple of small PALs to make backups of, and whilst I could design some gubbins to read them, this would save me some time and effort. And of course give me the incentive to get off my butt and do something about them :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Mar 2 19:36:04 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: All Cipher F880 Docs online Message-ID: Ok, I got the rest of these done today (schematics and engineering drawings). I experimented with many combos of resolution/bit-depth, and the best quality with a managable size ended up being 300dpi/8-bit greyscale/PDF format/JPEG compression. I think they average around 3megs each for 11" x 17" pages. This was the only format that would pick up things like component numbers on schematics/etc. Everything is available at www.retrobytes.org. BTW, if anyone has any suggestions on a better format for these, I'd be happy to try something else! But until then, the quality looks great to me... Cheers, Aaron From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Mar 2 21:46:46 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: decayed capstan in Archive QIC In-Reply-To: <002501bf83f5$57d890a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: Who was it that posted originally about needing the capstan? I've got a broken drive that you could use for parts, the capstan seems fine. Aaron From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Mar 2 23:41:36 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200003030541.XAA24772@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:58:52 -0800 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Early Mac Clones Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > While trying to dig up some info on some Mac hardware, I ran across the > following web page of early mac clones (over 10 years old). Some > interesting stuff there. > Outbound Laptop, Portable, 1989-91 One interesting thing about the Outbound, IIRC, was that not only was it introduced before the Portable came out, but it was way better than the Portable. So much better that Apple, who apparently hadn't quite agreed to license the rom's, gave them a choice: either you give us your computer, or we sue the pants off of you and we'll get it anyway. The Outbound then became the PowerBook. Might as well let someone else do your R&D for you..... > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | Paul Braun Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Mar 3 08:23:01 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <20000303142301.27588.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mark Gregory wrote: > One notable emulator/clone they missed was the Amax by ReadySoft for the > Amiga. It was a slim grey box that contained sockets for the Mac 512K ROMs And available later as an internal board with the same ROM sockets, a pair of 34-pin connectors and external mini-DIN connectors. The 34-pin connectors were there to place the A-Max-II+ board between the floppy drive and the motherboard, allowing the Amiga's internal floppy to read/write 800K Mac disks. The mini-DIN connectors were for LocalTalk. I still use my A-3000 bought in 1990 to run M$ Word under A-Max and then print via LocalTalk to my HP LJ/4ML. It works great as a turbo B&W Mac. > I believe it was fairly successful - it went through at least 4 hardware > versions that I'm aware of, ending with the Amax IV. I only have the "A-Max II+". The IV had an upgraded PAL (security bit blown, unfortunately; I checked) and new software. > I was an early purchaser, and I always enjoyed showing off my Amiga with > DeluxePaint II open in one window, WordPerfect for DOS in another window (I > had an XT bridgeboard), and the Mac desktop in a third window. > The best of all worlds, almost. I had one way back, too. I used to use Mac System 3.5 with it. There's another Amiga-based Mac implementation: Shapeshifter. It is software only. I sent the author a Zilog data book so he could support the A-MaxII+ card (Z8530, just like the Mac and old Suns, a *great* serial chip if you knew about its register access time limitations). My favorite demonstration with Shapeshifter was to fire off System 7 on the Mac side, connect up to a nearby Mac server and mount a share, switch back to the Amiga side, open up AMosaic and browse the web while copying files on the Mac. For an added touch, since there is no Netscape browser for AmigaDOS, shut down the TCP/IP stack on the Amiga side, then launch Netscape for the Mac. Those who saw the demo were usually stunned. This was all on a 25Mhz 68030 w/18Mb RAM (16Mb "FAST", 2Mb "CHIP" (kinda like video RAM but more versatile)) Most recently, I took a CD of several hundred Apple QuickTake 150 pictures that I shot over several months in Antarctica. My extensive research showed that there was no way with UNIX or Windows to convert these files to any other format. They are "Quicktime Compressed PICTs". The PBM utilities can parse them, but they get to the meat of the picture and declare that there is an unknown tag and skip the picture data. Anyway, I needed a Mac running the QuickTake 150 extensions to interpret these 1200 pictures. My fastest real Mac was a Mac SE/30. Running Picture Convert, it was 20-30 seconds to load an image and save it as a compressed TIFF; fortunately, there's a batch mode. Some of the pictures had developed bit rot, 10 in all. I couldn't just fire it off and go to bed; I had to supervise the batch. I loaded the stuff all up on to a 4Gb SCSI disk, hung it off my A4000 (25Mhz 68040) and ran ShapeShifter. It was now more like 5 seconds per picture, thus, my fastest Mac was really an Amiga. Last month when I picked up the MacIIci for $5, I passed on a Quadra 605 for $25 because it had no Ethernet and was only a 25Mhz 68040. I figured I already had that much and there was no reason to clutter up with one more box. I think, eventually, when the University surpluses something faster, I'll upgrade, but for now, the Amiga reigns supreme amongst my Mac collection. For me, it wasn't just being able to run Mac programs that was great; it was running them in a networked environment that was really awesome. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain goes away on 15 March. See http://www.infinet.com/ for details. Please update your address lists to reflect my new address: erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From oliv555 at arrl.net Fri Mar 3 09:06:19 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: PDP-11/55s avail Message-ID: <38BFD4EB.32E6729F@arrl.net> Got a message at work about four 11/55s available due to an upgrade. These are not freebies, in fact they are asking some big $$$ and come with the expensive Fastbus bipolar memory. I did not get permission to repost so if your site has need for these contact me off-list and I will provide the contact info. Nick From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Mar 3 09:27:57 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <20000303142301.27588.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Last month when I picked up the MacIIci for $5, I passed on a Quadra 605 > for $25 because it had no Ethernet and was only a 25Mhz 68040. I figured I > already had that much and there was no reason to clutter up with one more > box. I think, eventually, when the University surpluses something faster, > I'll upgrade, but for now, the Amiga reigns supreme amongst my Mac collection. There's a guy at TRW sometimes with MacII's for $5...as-is, obviously. I'd be happy to pick one up for you, if you're interested at all. I grabbed one a few months ago that had an 8*24GC card and an Asante NIC in it. All said and done, $20 landed me a IIfx (40mhz/68030) that does 1280x1024 in 16bit mode. I got mine to play with A/UX, but I did load system 7.5.5 on it and it's really a very useable machine. Great anecdote, by the way. You should forward your last email to the maintainer of the mac clone site... Cheers, Aaron From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Mar 3 10:58:26 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: How to Reverse Engineer a Non-Stated Programmable Logic Device Using Stone Knives and Bear Skins Message-ID: <000303115826.25602ca8@trailing-edge.com> Here's part A of my promised document on reverse engineering programmable logic devices. I suspect that it's too technically complex for about 49% of the audience, too technically simplistic for 50% of the audience, and right on target for only about 1% of the audience. Well, that's how the dice fall! I'm sure that my circuit-design techniques will be viciously attacked here too. My emphasis was on using commonly available parts, and even though I happened to use my time-tested favorites, I'm sure some folks will despise me because I happened to stoop as low as using a 555 in a circuit. Please take into account that I know that the hardware I'm using here is primitive (thus the "stone knives and bear skins" in the title) and that I'm very much aiming at circuits that others will learn from and adapt for their own uses. Soon I'll publish part B, computer-assisted scanning, after I get that written up. That will be followed by part C, determining logic equations, and part D, reconstructing an equivalent fuse map. These documents, as they're revised, will be available over the web at http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/reverse-engineer/ -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 How to Reverse Engineer a Non-Stated Programmable Logic Device Using Nothing but Stone Knives and Bear Skins. Revision 0.1 / 3-Mar-2000 Tim Shoppa, shoppa@trailing-edge.com INTRODUCTION Computer collectors often come across programmable logic devices (bipolar PROMs, PALs, GALs, etc.) in their hardware. They may want knowledge of the device to improve, customize, or modify it, they may want to know what it is doing purely out of curiosity, or they might want to simply be able to replace device in the future in case of hardware failure. As the original manufacturer of the equipment has almost always disavowed all support and knowledge of the programmed devices, here I tell how you can determine the function of the device, even if it has had (for example) a security fuse blown. ASSUMPTIONS Here I assume the following: 1. The reader of this document has at least a little bit of familiarity with electronics - enough to wire up simple logic circuits on solderless breadboards, and use a logic probe or multimeter, and find pin 1 on an IC. Those who aren't familiar with electronics should start elsewhere for the very basics - I strongly recommend Don Lancaster's _TTL Cookbook_ and Horowitz and Hill's _The Art of Electronics_. 2. The device to be reverse-engineered is easily removed from its circuit for testing. Very often, bipolar PROM's and many PAL's are already socketed for easy removal. While it is undoubtedly possible to apply the techniques I describe here to in-circuit testing, there are complications of in-circuit testing that I'm not ready to discuss in general. 3. The device to be reverse-engineered doesn't have any internal "state". Again, the principles discussed here can also be used with, for example, registered PAL's, but interpreting the results and ensuring that all internal states are exercised is not discussed here. 4. Here I also assume that device being reverse-engineered doesn't have any tri-stated outputs. The techniques discussed here *do* allow for devices which have pins that are fuse-programmable for input only or output only. STEP 1: DETERMININING DEVICE POWER CONNECTIONS For many programmable devices (especially PALs and GALs, and many bipolar PROMs) the Vcc and Ground power connections follow the "standard" TTL conventions - i.e. for a 14 pin device, Vcc is at pin 14, ground is at pin 7. For a 20 pin device, Vcc is at pin 20, ground is at pin 10. usw. Not all programmable devices follow these conventions. Usually some simple testing with an ohmmeter, checking for connection to +5V and Ground at some known IC or connector on the circuit board, will reveal the actual connections. It's vitally important that you are sure about the Vcc and ground connections. IC's don't like having power applied backwards across them. Seeing as how you've already decided that the part in question is worth reverse engineering - probably because it's irreplacable - it's wise to be very careful about this phase. OK, now that we know which pins are Vcc and ground, put the device on your favorite solderless breadboard and apply power. Be sure to bypass Vcc to ground near the device with an appropriate bypass capacitor (say, 0.001 to 0.01 uF). STEP 2: DETERMINING INS AND OUTS If you've got a good logic probe - one that can distinguish a high from a low from an open circuit - this stage is easy. Just use the logic probe to test each unknown pin - if it's definitely high or low, then it's an output. If it's open circuit or high impedance, it's probably an input. My logic probe is a $7.99 device I bought at a local electronics store many years ago. It detects high, low, and open circuits, and also has a pulse stretcher for making very brief output pulses visible. I recommend that anyone doing anything even remotely related to digital electronics have such a tool. But for those who don't have such a tool, you can use a milliameter to do the equivalent thing. Attach one end of a milliameter to Vcc through a 1K resistor, and scan through all the unknown pins on the device with the other end of the milliameter. If you see a current of 3-5 mA, you've found an output which is low. Now attach one end of the milliameter to ground with a 1K resistor, and scan through the remaining unknown pins with the other end of the milliameter. If you see a current of 2-5 mA on any pin, you've found an output which is high. Any remaining pins that didn't show appreciable current flow through either pass with the milliameter is now known to be an input. STEP 3: SCAN THROUGH ALL THE INPUTS OK, now we fall back on one of my favorite methods of all: Brute Force. Say we started out with a 24-pin device, and found two of the pins to be Vcc and Ground, and found three other pins which tested to be outputs. That leaves 19 pins as inputs. There are 2^19, or about half a million, possible input patterns to this device. That might sound like a lot, but it really isn't - by using our friend, the 74LS93, to scan through the inputs we can scan through this in under a second if we want. The 74LS93 is a 4-bit binary counter. We're going to chain as many as necessary together (in the example above, 5 74LS93's gives us a 20-bit counter, enough to scan through 2^20 or a million input states) to scan our device under test. I bought 5 74LS93's at a local electronic store in a 5-unit "Jim-Pak" for under $3.00. Each 74LS93 stage is wired together according to the following schematic: Qa Qd Clk Qc Qd Out Out Out Out Out ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ | | | | | | | | | | /----------------* *----/ | | | | | | | | Clk | | | | | in | | Gnd | | | ^ | | ^ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | --------------------------------------- | | 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ) 74LS93 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 | | --------------------------------------- | | | | | | | | | | \------/ \----* v | Vcc v RESET IN Note that the 74LS93 doesn't follow the TTL convention of putting ground in the lower right and Vcc on the upper left! Again, we're dealing with clocked logic here, so to prevent output changes from making power supply glitches that feed into nearby stages it's good practice to bypass Vcc to ground near each IC with a bypass capacitor. To chain the above counters together, run clock out from the first 74LS93 to clock in on the second 74LS93, clock out from the second 74LS93 to clock in on the third 74LS93, etc. The "RESET IN" connection to each counting stage should be tied low for normal counting, and momentarily tied high to reset all the counters. I tied all the reset ins together on my solderless breadboard and hooked them to ground for normal operation. To reset the counters, I move the wire to Vcc briefly and back. STEP 4: NON-COMPUTER ASSISTED SCANNING OK, now we tie Qa-Qd from each counting stage to "input" pins on the device to be scanned. I also like to watch the most significant counting bit cycle, so I hook it (through a 1K or so resistor) to a LED whose anode is hooked to +5V. And we also need a clock to step the counters through all the possible patterns. I used a 555 (again, a part that ought to be available everywhere) to make a simple oscillator: Gnd ^ | | C1 Vcc _____ ^ _____ | | *-- /-- *-----------------\ | \ | \ | Gnd | | /R | /R | ^ | | \1 | \2 | | C2 | | / | / | _____ | | ---* ---* _____ | | | | | | | | | | | /-----------------------------\ | | 8 7 6 5 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ) 555 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1 2 3 4 | | \-----------------------------/ | | | | | | | | | | | v | | v | Gnd | v Vcc | | Clk | | Out | | | \-----------------------/ C2 is a 0.01 uF capacitor to bypass the threshold divider to ground. It's non-critical, and the circuit will probably work without it. The resistor and capacitor values are noncritical; I happened to use R1=R2=220 ohms, and C1=0.047 uF, to get a clock rate of somewhere around 30 kHz for initial testing. Making C ten times smaller will up the clock rate by a factor of ten; making it ten times larger will slow down the clock rate by a factor of ten. The clock rate you choose will depend on how large of a space you have to scan. OK, now feed Clk Out from the 555 to Clk In on the first 74LS93 stage. With a logic probe, you'll see high-frequency pulses coming out of the first stages of the counter, and on the last stages you'll see the pulse rate divided down by however many stages of divide-by-2 you have wired in. If you've wired a LED to the most significant bit, you'll see it cycle on-off-on as you go through all the possible binary output patterns. Now move the logic probe to an output of the programmable device. With any luck, you'll see output pulses here flashing in a repeating cycle that coincides with the MSB LED hooked to the last counter stage. STEP 5: DETERMINING WHICH INPUTS GIVE INTERESTING OUTPUTS OK, now suppose that our logic probe has told us that the output from our PAL under test is "high" almost all the time, but goes low only a few times per input cycle. If the PAL was used as an address decoder - as many of the ones I deal with are used - then this is a very likely case. So to find the input that causes the output to go low, we gate the clock signal from the 555 with the PAL output through a NAND gate. When the PAL output goes low, the clock pulses will no longer be applied to the counter, and the counters will stop at the input which caused the PAL output to go low. (1/4 of a 74LS00 NAND) |------- Clk out from 555 ---------------| ) | )O------- Clk in to first 74LS93 Out from PAL ---------------| ) |------- When the counters stop, just use a logic probe to read off the logic states that produce the interesting "input" state. To continue scanning, momentarily lift the "out from PAL" signal from the 74LS00. This input will float high, and the counters will start scanning again. If you suspect that there might be other "PAL output low" combinations, it may be worthwhile to slow down or stop the 555 clock signal while you momentarily lift the "out from PAL" signal. For this purpose, I keep a largish electrolytic around to plug in parallel across the the capacitor that sets the 555 time constant. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Mar 3 11:05:30 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Stone Knives and Bear Skins Message-ID: <000303120530.25602ca8@trailing-edge.com> If anyone has a .GIF or .JPG of Spock in _The City on the Edge of Forever_ constructing a "primitive mnemonic memory device" from what he terms as "stone knives and bear skins", I'd love to have that to put on my reverse-engineering web page. None of my reverse-engineering aids yet involve a Jacob's ladder or a 3-foot-long breadboard (back when they were really wood!) filled with glowing tubes, but the idea is so appealing that I might try :-). I suspect that for many of us who grew up watching Star Trek, *nothing* is as cool as Spock or Scotty working on a circuit that's throwing sparks. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 3 11:55:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Stone Knives and Bear Skins In-Reply-To: <000303120530.25602ca8@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > None of my reverse-engineering aids yet involve a Jacob's ladder or > a 3-foot-long breadboard (back when they were really wood!) filled with > glowing tubes, but the idea is so appealing that I might try :-). You laugh. Thanks to another member here on classiccmp I received a handfull of T3 sized vacuum tubes. Now there is only one thing to do with that... build a radio! I may elect to build it in the form that likely when those tubes were originally used with lots of metal. Anyone have specs on 5899 or 5639 (they happen to be sylvainia)? None of my books list them, as they are all RCA. If not step one will be bread board and curve them some to see whats their characteristics are. Allison From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Mar 3 11:54:59 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Contact info for Paxton? Message-ID: <38BFFC73.2C243DB2@mainecoon.com> [Sorry for blasting the list with this, but I've got a logistical nightmare that I'm trying to solve in the next few hours] If anyone knows how to contact Paxton in an expedient fashion (i.e., on the phone) I'd appreciate it if they could do so and tell him to check his mail -- I've just received a call from the trucking company that's supposed to be collecting the 3880 and 3350 that he dug up; their some four hours away and looking for information on where they're supposed to collect the stuff. Again, my apologies for broadcasting this, but I'm kinda desperate just now... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Mar 3 16:51:14 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones In-Reply-To: <20000303142301.27588.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello Ethan On 03-Mar-00, you wrote: > --- Mark Gregory wrote: >> One notable emulator/clone they missed was the Amax by ReadySoft for the >> Amiga. It was a slim grey box that contained sockets for the Mac 512K ROMs > > And available later as an internal board with the same ROM sockets, a pair > of 34-pin connectors and external mini-DIN connectors. The 34-pin connectors > were there to place the A-Max-II+ board between the floppy drive and the > motherboard, allowing the Amiga's internal floppy to read/write 800K Mac > disks. The mini-DIN connectors were for LocalTalk. > > I still use my A-3000 bought in 1990 to run M$ Word under A-Max and then > print via LocalTalk to my HP LJ/4ML. It works great as a turbo B&W Mac. > >> I believe it was fairly successful - it went through at least 4 hardware >> versions that I'm aware of, ending with the Amax IV. > > I only have the "A-Max II+". The IV had an upgraded PAL (security bit > blown, unfortunately; I checked) and new software. > >> I was an early purchaser, and I always enjoyed showing off my Amiga with >> DeluxePaint II open in one window, WordPerfect for DOS in another window (I >> had an XT bridgeboard), and the Mac desktop in a third window. >> The best of all worlds, almost. > > I had one way back, too. I used to use Mac System 3.5 with it. > > There's another Amiga-based Mac implementation: Shapeshifter. It is software > only. I sent the author a Zilog data book so he could support the A-MaxII+ > card (Z8530, just like the Mac and old Suns, a *great* serial chip if you > knew about its register access time limitations). My favorite demonstration > with Shapeshifter was to fire off System 7 on the Mac side, connect up to a > nearby Mac server and mount a share, switch back to the Amiga side, open up > AMosaic and browse the web while copying files on the Mac. For an added > touch, since there is no Netscape browser for AmigaDOS, shut down the TCP/IP > stack on the Amiga side, then launch Netscape for the Mac. Those who saw > the demo were usually stunned. This was all on a 25Mhz 68030 w/18Mb RAM > (16Mb "FAST", 2Mb "CHIP" (kinda like video RAM but more versatile)) > > Most recently, I took a CD of several hundred Apple QuickTake 150 pictures > that I shot over several months in Antarctica. My extensive research showed > that there was no way with UNIX or Windows to convert these files to any other > format. They are "Quicktime Compressed PICTs". The PBM utilities can parse > them, but they get to the meat of the picture and declare that there is an > unknown tag and skip the picture data. Anyway, I needed a Mac running the > QuickTake 150 extensions to interpret these 1200 pictures. My fastest real > Mac was a Mac SE/30. Running Picture Convert, it was 20-30 seconds to load > an image and save it as a compressed TIFF; fortunately, there's a batch mode. > Some of the pictures had developed bit rot, 10 in all. I couldn't just > fire it off and go to bed; I had to supervise the batch. I loaded the stuff > all up on to a 4Gb SCSI disk, hung it off my A4000 (25Mhz 68040) and ran > ShapeShifter. It was now more like 5 seconds per picture, thus, my fastest > Mac was really an Amiga. > > Last month when I picked up the MacIIci for $5, I passed on a Quadra 605 > for $25 because it had no Ethernet and was only a 25Mhz 68040. I figured I > already had that much and there was no reason to clutter up with one more > box. I think, eventually, when the University surpluses something faster, > I'll upgrade, but for now, the Amiga reigns supreme amongst my Mac collection. > > For me, it wasn't just being able to run Mac programs that was great; it was > running them in a networked environment that was really awesome. > > -ethan > > > > ===== > Infinet has been sold. The domain goes away on 15 March. > See http://www.infinet.com/ for details. > > Please update your address lists to reflect my new address: > > erd@iname.com > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com Yes, another satisfied Amiga user/owner. How many of us can do what he did on a PeeCee? Gary Hildebrand Amigaphile forever Regards From wanderer at bos.nl Fri Mar 3 13:14:00 2000 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Stone Knives and Bear Skins References: Message-ID: <38C00EF8.E3E@bos.nl> > Anyone have specs on 5899 or 5639 (they happen to be sylvainia)? None of > my books list them, as they are all RCA. If not step one will be Allison, 5899 (Generic class A amplifier tube) Semi Remote Cutoff RF Pentode. 6.3V/0.15 filament voltage/amp, 165V maximum plate voltage, 155 maximum screen voltage, 4,2 microfarad capacitance on input, 3.4 microfarads on output, 0.015 microfarads on gridplate (max). 5639 (Used in old TV's) Video Pentode 6.3V/0.45 filament voltage/amp, 150 max. plate voltage 2.2 microfarads on input, 3.0 on output, 1.7 on gridplate (max). If you need more information, I can fax you a copy of both pages describing the tubes. Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: zakken- http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | vullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95/98 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R / '97 TL1000S | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 3 12:51:54 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: How to Reverse Engineer a Non-Stated Programmable Logic Device Using Stone Knives and Bear Skins Message-ID: <003301bf8541$8c0e9e80$0400c0a8@winbook> This looks like it could be quite helpful in demysifying a decoder. However, not all devices have negative-going enables and it leaves a gap there. In a PAL it would be just as easy to use to create a decoder that uses positive enables, e.g. as found on 6821's and the like. This isn't common but I've run into it just in the last couple of weeks. On most of the "old" bipolar PALs, pin 11 was used as the global output enable, since most of the 16 and 20 input 20 and 24-pin PALs were capable of generating tristate outputs on every macrocell. The easy way to test for these is to use a weak pullup, driven by a single driver, together with an equally weak pull-down resistor array. This can be the same one if your resistor is on the order of 20K. When your device-under-test is disabled, it should follow the signal driving the resistors. Monitoring this requires you use no TTL in the monitoring circuit, since its inputs source current and will drive up an output. One other thing that could stand to be circumvented is that the 'LS93 is a ripple counter which, with PAL speeds as high as they are, could generate internal glitches long enough set or clear a latch (normally implemented as a combinatorial loop in an 'L8 or the like). That might warrant the use of a synchronous counter at least in newly built devices. For a synchronous counter I like the 'LS590 because it's an 8-bit counter and has an extra internal register to which the count can be transferred in parallel, thereby eliminating risk of all but the shortest output glitches. If you concatenate, say, three of these, their output registers can be clocked from the complement of the counter clock. That way they are out of phase with the count clock, hence will not generate internal races which could result in incorrectly latched data. Also, for newly built devices, it's about as easy as anything to use a CMOS Schmidt trigger, e.g. 74HC132 as an oscillator. You need merely put about a 1 MEG pot in feedback across the device, with inputs tied together to form an inverter, and hang a capacitor, say, 0.01 or 0.1, or whatever else is handy, and then tweak he pot to set the frequency. That way you don't have to admit you have used a 555. These measures should result in less wiring effort for the cases where a new gadget is being built. Just my $.02's worth . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: CLASSICCMP@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, March 03, 2000 10:12 AM Subject: How to Reverse Engineer a Non-Stated Programmable Logic Device Using Stone Knives and Bear Skins >Here's part A of my promised document on reverse engineering programmable >logic devices. I suspect that it's too technically complex for about 49% >of the audience, too technically simplistic for 50% of the audience, and >right on target for only about 1% of the audience. Well, that's how >the dice fall! > >I'm sure that my circuit-design techniques will be viciously attacked here >too. My emphasis was on using commonly available parts, and even >though I happened to use my time-tested favorites, I'm sure some folks will >despise me because I happened to stoop as low as using a 555 in a circuit. >Please take into account that I know that the hardware I'm using here >is primitive (thus the "stone knives and bear skins" in the title) and >that I'm very much aiming at circuits that others will learn from and >adapt for their own uses. > >Soon I'll publish part B, computer-assisted scanning, after I get that >written up. That will be followed by part C, determining logic equations, >and part D, reconstructing an equivalent fuse map. These documents, >as they're revised, will be available over the web at > > http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/reverse-engineer/ > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > > >How to Reverse Engineer a Non-Stated Programmable Logic Device Using >Nothing but Stone Knives and Bear Skins. > >Revision 0.1 / 3-Mar-2000 >Tim Shoppa, shoppa@trailing-edge.com > > INTRODUCTION > >Computer collectors often come across programmable logic devices >(bipolar PROMs, PALs, GALs, etc.) in their hardware. They may want >knowledge of the device to improve, customize, or modify it, they may >want to know what it is doing purely out of curiosity, or they might >want to simply be able to replace device in the future in case of >hardware failure. As the original manufacturer of the equipment has >almost always disavowed all support and knowledge of the programmed >devices, here I tell how you can determine the function of the device, >even if it has had (for example) a security fuse blown. > > ASSUMPTIONS > >Here I assume the following: > >1. The reader of this document has at least a little bit of >familiarity with electronics - enough to wire up simple logic circuits >on solderless breadboards, and use a logic probe or multimeter, and >find pin 1 on an IC. Those who aren't familiar with electronics should >start elsewhere for the very basics - I strongly recommend Don Lancaster's >_TTL Cookbook_ and Horowitz and Hill's _The Art of Electronics_. > >2. The device to be reverse-engineered is easily removed from its >circuit for testing. Very often, bipolar PROM's and many PAL's >are already socketed for easy removal. While it is undoubtedly possible >to apply the techniques I describe here to in-circuit testing, >there are complications of in-circuit testing that I'm not ready to >discuss in general. > >3. The device to be reverse-engineered doesn't have any internal "state". >Again, the principles discussed here can also be used with, for example, >registered PAL's, but interpreting the results and ensuring that all internal >states are exercised is not discussed here. > >4. Here I also assume that device being reverse-engineered doesn't have >any tri-stated outputs. The techniques discussed here *do* allow for devices >which have pins that are fuse-programmable for input only or output only. > > STEP 1: DETERMININING DEVICE POWER CONNECTIONS > >For many programmable devices (especially PALs and GALs, and many >bipolar PROMs) the Vcc and Ground power connections follow the >"standard" TTL conventions - i.e. for a 14 pin device, Vcc is at >pin 14, ground is at pin 7. For a 20 pin device, Vcc is at pin 20, >ground is at pin 10. usw. > >Not all programmable devices follow these conventions. Usually some >simple testing with an ohmmeter, checking for connection to +5V and >Ground at some known IC or connector on the circuit board, will reveal the >actual connections. > >It's vitally important that you are sure about the Vcc and ground connections. >IC's don't like having power applied backwards across them. Seeing as >how you've already decided that the part in question is worth reverse >engineering - probably because it's irreplacable - it's wise to be very >careful about this phase. > >OK, now that we know which pins are Vcc and ground, put the device on >your favorite solderless breadboard and apply power. Be sure to bypass >Vcc to ground near the device with an appropriate bypass capacitor >(say, 0.001 to 0.01 uF). > > STEP 2: DETERMINING INS AND OUTS > >If you've got a good logic probe - one that can distinguish a high >from a low from an open circuit - this stage is easy. Just use the >logic probe to test each unknown pin - if it's definitely high or low, >then it's an output. If it's open circuit or high impedance, it's probably >an input. > >My logic probe is a $7.99 device I bought at a local electronics store >many years ago. It detects high, low, and open circuits, and also has >a pulse stretcher for making very brief output pulses visible. >I recommend that anyone doing anything even remotely >related to digital electronics have such a tool. But for those who don't >have such a tool, you can use a milliameter to do the equivalent thing. >Attach one end of a milliameter to Vcc through a 1K resistor, and scan >through all the unknown pins on the device with the other end of the >milliameter. If you see a current of 3-5 mA, you've found an output >which is low. Now attach one end of the milliameter to ground with >a 1K resistor, and scan through the remaining unknown pins with the other >end of the milliameter. If you see a current of 2-5 mA on any pin, you've >found an output which is high. Any remaining pins that didn't show >appreciable current flow through either pass with the milliameter is >now known to be an input. > > STEP 3: SCAN THROUGH ALL THE INPUTS > >OK, now we fall back on one of my favorite methods of all: Brute Force. >Say we started out with a 24-pin device, and found two of the pins to be >Vcc and Ground, and found three other pins which tested to be outputs. >That leaves 19 pins as inputs. There are 2^19, or about half a million, >possible input patterns to this device. That might sound like a lot, but >it really isn't - by using our friend, the 74LS93, to scan through the >inputs we can scan through this in under a second if we want. > >The 74LS93 is a 4-bit binary counter. We're going to chain as many >as necessary together (in the example above, 5 74LS93's gives us a >20-bit counter, enough to scan through 2^20 or a million input states) >to scan our device under test. I bought 5 74LS93's at a local electronic >store in a 5-unit "Jim-Pak" for under $3.00. > >Each 74LS93 stage is wired together according to the following >schematic: > Qa Qd Clk Qc Qd > Out Out Out Out Out > ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ > | | | | | > | | | | | > /----------------* *----/ | | > | | | | | > | Clk | | | | > | in | | Gnd | | > | ^ | | ^ | | > | | | | | | | > | | | | | | | > | --------------------------------------- > | | 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | ) 74LS93 | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 | > | --------------------------------------- > | | | | | > | | | | | > \------/ \----* v > | Vcc > v > RESET > IN > >Note that the 74LS93 doesn't follow the TTL convention of putting >ground in the lower right and Vcc on the upper left! Again, we're >dealing with clocked logic here, so to prevent output changes from making >power supply glitches that feed into nearby stages it's good practice >to bypass Vcc to ground near each IC with a bypass capacitor. > >To chain the above counters together, run clock out from the first >74LS93 to clock in on the second 74LS93, clock out from the second >74LS93 to clock in on the third 74LS93, etc. > >The "RESET IN" connection to each counting stage should be tied low >for normal counting, and momentarily tied high to reset all the counters. >I tied all the reset ins together on my solderless breadboard and >hooked them to ground for normal operation. To reset the counters, >I move the wire to Vcc briefly and back. > > STEP 4: NON-COMPUTER ASSISTED SCANNING > >OK, now we tie Qa-Qd from each counting stage to "input" pins on the >device to be scanned. I also like to watch the most significant counting >bit cycle, so I hook it (through a 1K or so resistor) to a LED whose >anode is hooked to +5V. And we also need a clock to step the counters >through all the possible patterns. I used a 555 (again, a part that >ought to be available everywhere) to make a simple oscillator: > > Gnd > ^ > | > | C1 > Vcc _____ > ^ _____ > | | > *-- /-- *-----------------\ > | \ | \ | Gnd | > | /R | /R | ^ | > | \1 | \2 | | C2 | > | / | / | _____ | > | ---* ---* _____ | > | | | | | > | | | | | > /-----------------------------\ | > | 8 7 6 5 | | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | | | > ) 555 | | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | | | > | 1 2 3 4 | | > \-----------------------------/ | > | | | | | > | | | | | > v | | v | > Gnd | v Vcc | > | Clk | > | Out | > | | > \-----------------------/ > > >C2 is a 0.01 uF capacitor to bypass the threshold divider to ground. >It's non-critical, and the circuit will probably work without it. > >The resistor and capacitor values are noncritical; I happened to >use R1=R2=220 ohms, and C1=0.047 uF, to get a clock rate of somewhere >around 30 kHz for initial testing. Making C ten times smaller will up >the clock rate by a factor of ten; making it ten times larger will slow down >the clock rate by a factor of ten. The clock rate you choose will depend >on how large of a space you have to scan. > >OK, now feed Clk Out from the 555 to Clk In on the first 74LS93 stage. >With a logic probe, you'll see high-frequency pulses coming out of the >first stages of the counter, and on the last stages you'll see the pulse >rate divided down by however many stages of divide-by-2 you have wired in. >If you've wired a LED to the most significant bit, you'll see it cycle >on-off-on as you go through all the possible binary output patterns. > >Now move the logic probe to an output of the programmable device. With >any luck, you'll see output pulses here flashing in a repeating cycle >that coincides with the MSB LED hooked to the last counter stage. > > STEP 5: DETERMINING WHICH INPUTS GIVE > INTERESTING OUTPUTS > >OK, now suppose that our logic probe has told us that the output from our >PAL under test is "high" almost all the time, but goes low only a few times >per input cycle. If the PAL was used as an address decoder - as many of >the ones I deal with are used - then this is a very likely case. > >So to find the input that causes the output to go low, we gate the >clock signal from the 555 with the PAL output through a NAND gate. >When the PAL output goes low, the clock pulses will no longer be applied >to the counter, and the counters will stop at the input which caused >the PAL output to go low. > > (1/4 of a 74LS00 NAND) > > |------- > Clk out from 555 ---------------| ) > | )O------- Clk in to first 74LS93 > Out from PAL ---------------| ) > |------- > >When the counters stop, just use a logic probe to read off the logic >states that produce the interesting "input" state. > >To continue scanning, momentarily lift the "out from PAL" signal from the >74LS00. This input will float high, and the counters will start scanning again. >If you suspect that there might be other "PAL output low" combinations, >it may be worthwhile to slow down or stop the 555 clock signal while >you momentarily lift the "out from PAL" signal. For this purpose, >I keep a largish electrolytic around to plug in parallel across the the >capacitor that sets the 555 time constant. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Mar 3 13:00:07 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <20000303190007.22760.qmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Last month when I picked up the MacIIci for $5... > > There's a guy at TRW sometimes with MacII's for $5...as-is, obviously. > I'd be happy to pick one up for you, if you're interested at all. I > grabbed one a few months ago that had an 8*24GC card and an Asante NIC in > it. All said and done, $20 landed me a IIfx (40mhz/68030) that does > 1280x1024 in 16bit mode. Thanks, but no need. My $5 IIci was similarly equipped. Even though it's a tad slower than a IIfx, I prefer the IIci because it uses ordinary 30-pin SIMMs (I pulled out the 8Mb and dropped in 32Mb for playing with my pictures in their native enviroment in preparation for cutting some Mac HFS CD-ROMs for long-term backup). Another bit of fun is that I'm using a Linux box as an Appleshare File Server. It even mounts and shares HFS CD-ROMs. No magic - just the netatalk package, follow the directions and share away! -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain goes away on 15 March. See http://www.infinet.com/ for details. Please update your address lists to reflect my new address: erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Mar 3 12:56:08 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: RE Paxton - Anything heavy need to go to CA today from PDX Message-ID: <38.2e24c58.25f164c8@aol.com> Hi; I made connections. We arranging a rescue of a good IBM 3880 & 3350. They are going to CA today by truck. Does anyone in the PDX area have anything heavy that needs to go to CA. There is room on the truck. It is in Seattle at the moment. Thanks. Paxton From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 3 13:24:42 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: teletype photos wanted In-Reply-To: <20000302211717.25681.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000303131852.01ac6ef0@pc> At 09:17 PM 3/2/00 +0000, Eric Smith wrote: >Someone recently emailed asking me for help identifying a teletype, >but unfortunately didn't supply any useful information. I thought maybe >I could find some photos online, but ask.com and google didn't turn up >anything. Has anyone seen an online collection of photos? I'm sure there >are some good ASR-33 photos somewhere, but ideally it would be nice to >find photos of other models as well. How's http://204.117.207.9/hcs/museum/asr33.jpg ? The Greenkeys mailing list (of RTTY ham radio types) is very good at identifying old equipment, if you have a picture online... At 09:33 PM 3/2/00 +0000, Eric Smith wrote: >Earlier this afternoon I wrote: >> Someone recently emailed asking me for help identifying a teletype, >> but unfortunately didn't supply any useful information. >He's now determined that it's a model 28. >But it would still be nice to find a collection of photos of teletypes. >And for that matter, Flexowriters, Creeds, DECwriters, etc. Check out http://www.rtty.com/ and associated links. - John From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Mar 3 13:44:45 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: RE Paxton - Anything heavy need to go to CA today from PDX In-Reply-To: <38.2e24c58.25f164c8@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000303114333.01861470@mcmanis.com> Bruce has a BA123 he owes me... (destination Sunnyvale CA) --Chuck At 01:56 PM 3/3/00 -0500, Innfogra@aol.com wrote: >Hi; > >I made connections. We arranging a rescue of a good IBM 3880 & 3350. They are >going to CA today by truck. Does anyone in the PDX area have anything heavy >that needs to go to CA. There is room on the truck. It is in Seattle at the >moment. > >Thanks. >Paxton From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Mar 3 14:38:40 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: wanted; DECwriter Message-ID: <20000303143840.G13234@mrbill.net> Anybody know where I can pick up a DECwriter? (central Texas area preferred...) -- +---------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | +-------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------+-----------------------------------+ | Version: 3.12 | | GCS d- s:++ a- C++++ US++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ N++ o K+++ w--- O- M-- V- | | PS PE+ Y+ PGP t+ 5 X- R-- tv+++ b++++ DI++++ D++ G++ e++ h r++ y+ | +-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----------------------------------------------+ From bill_r at inetnebr.com Fri Mar 3 14:51:48 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Stone Knives and Bear Skins Message-ID: <200003032050.OAA08095@falcon.inetnebr.com> Psssst... http://kcohn.simplenet.com/alidarjarok/originalseries/thecityontheedgeoffore ver/index2.html >If anyone has a .GIF or .JPG of Spock in _The City on the Edge of >Forever_ constructing a "primitive mnemonic memory device" from what >he terms as "stone knives and bear skins", I'd love to have that >to put on my reverse-engineering web page. > >None of my reverse-engineering aids yet involve a Jacob's ladder or >a 3-foot-long breadboard (back when they were really wood!) filled with >glowing tubes, but the idea is so appealing that I might try :-). > >I suspect that for many of us who grew up watching Star Trek, *nothing* >is as cool as Spock or Scotty working on a circuit that's throwing >sparks. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > > Bill Richman http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Mar 3 14:52:15 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Update to Cipher Docs Message-ID: Due to a few requests, I've posted PDF (Adobe Acrobat) files along side the TIFF files for the Cipher F880 docs. Enjoy! Aaron From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Mar 3 15:33:16 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: How to Reverse Engineer a Non-Stated Programmable Logic Device Using Stone Knives and Bear Skins Message-ID: <000303163316.25602cda@trailing-edge.com> >This looks like it could be quite helpful in demysifying a decoder. >However, not all devices have negative-going enables and it leaves a gap >there. In a PAL it would be just as easy to use to create a decoder that >uses positive enables, e.g. as found on 6821's and the like. This isn't >common but I've run into it just in the last couple of weeks. Thanks, the next edition of "part A" will note that if the PAL output is the other polarity, you want to invert it before using it to gate the oscillator. >On most of the "old" bipolar PALs, pin 11 was used as the global output >enable, since most of the 16 and 20 input 20 and 24-pin PALs were capable of >generating tristate outputs on every macrocell. The easy way to test for >these is to use a weak pullup, driven by a single driver, together with an >equally weak pull-down resistor array. This can be the same one if your >resistor is on the order of 20K. When your device-under-test is disabled, >it should follow the signal driving the resistors. Monitoring this requires >you use no TTL in the monitoring circuit, since its inputs source current >and will drive up an output. Tri-stated outputs will be covered in an addendum at some point. I think I've been pretty plain that *my* first priority was reverse-engineering some address decoder PAL's, so I didn't have to worry about this the first time around. >One other thing that could stand to be circumvented is that the 'LS93 is a >ripple counter which, with PAL speeds as high as they are, could generate >internal glitches long enough set or clear a latch (normally implemented as >a combinatorial loop in an 'L8 or the like). True. I've noticed no such ripple glitches in my breadboarded circuits with 5 LS93's, but I'm certain you're right and that at the nanosecond level that they're there. >That might warrant the use of a synchronous counter at least in newly built >devices. For a synchronous counter I like the 'LS590 because it's an 8-bit >counter and has an extra internal register to which the count can be Good recommendation, but the LS590 isn't quite as available as the 74LS93. Ready availability of parts is vital to the "stone knives and bearskins" mindset I'm adopting here. >Also, for newly built devices, it's about as easy as anything to use a CMOS >Schmidt trigger, e.g. 74HC132 as an oscillator. You need merely put about a >1 MEG pot in feedback across the device, with inputs tied together to form >an inverter, and hang a capacitor, say, 0.01 or 0.1, or whatever else is >handy, and then tweak he pot to set the frequency. That way you don't have >to admit you have used a 555. Again in my neck of the woods 555's are more available, certainly there are lots of other ways to make clock pulses too. Many of the deglitching concerns of yours will be addressed with Part B, which discusses a simple computer interface for scanning. The computer simply waits a few hundred nanoseconds while between sending a clock pulse and looking at the PAL output. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From owad at applefritter.com Fri Mar 3 15:38:55 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:59 2005 Subject: Early Mac Clones Message-ID: <200003032141.NAA04374@harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >One interesting thing about the Outbound, IIRC, was that not only >was it introduced before the Portable came out, but it was way >better than the Portable. So much better that Apple, who >apparently hadn't quite agreed to license the rom's, gave them a >choice: either you give us your computer, or we sue the pants off of >you and we'll get it anyway. > >The Outbound then became the PowerBook. Might as well let >someone else do your R&D for you..... That story is new to me, and rather contradicts what I've heard. The Outbounds were completely legal, and I don't believe Apple ever attempted to sue them. Outbound was still around when the Powerbooks came out, and from what I've read, its the _competition_ that drove them out of business. With Apple making cost-effective laptops, it was no longer economical to buy a clone and Mac ROMs. The Outbound Notebook uses IDE hard drives and camcorder batteries and really doesn't come across at all like the Powerbook 1xx. You can find additional pictures and information at: http://www.applefritter.com/macclones/outbound/laptop/ http://www.applefritter.com/macclones/outbound/notebook/ And information on Mac clones in general at: http://www.applefritter.com/macclones/ Tom Owad ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 3 15:51:36 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: Stone Knives and Bear Skins In-Reply-To: <38C00EF8.E3E@bos.nl> Message-ID: Thanks, Actually the plate disapation and Ip numbers would help but no fax. I'm surprized they were used in commercial TV, I'd never seen them in anything other than military stuff. These do show in your book as T3 size wire leads? Allison On Fri, 3 Mar 2000, wanderer wrote: > 5899 (Generic class A amplifier tube) > Semi Remote Cutoff RF Pentode. > 6.3V/0.15 filament voltage/amp, 165V maximum plate voltage, > 155 maximum screen voltage, 4,2 microfarad capacitance on input, > 3.4 microfarads on output, 0.015 microfarads on gridplate (max). > > 5639 (Used in old TV's) > Video Pentode > 6.3V/0.45 filament voltage/amp, 150 max. plate voltage > 2.2 microfarads on input, 3.0 on output, 1.7 on gridplate (max). From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Mar 3 16:18:13 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: wanted; DECwriter In-Reply-To: <20000303143840.G13234@mrbill.net> (message from Bill Bradford on Fri, 3 Mar 2000 14:38:40 -0600) References: <20000303143840.G13234@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20000303221813.5551.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody know where I can pick up a DECwriter? (central Texas area > preferred...) I've got some in Milpitas, CA. I doubt that you'd want to pay shipping. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Mar 3 16:11:49 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: Mott in New Jersey? In-Reply-To: References: <20000303142301.27588.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In a conversation at a surplus joint yesterday someone told me about a guy in New Jersey called "Mott" that is a big dealer in PDP11 type stuff. Anybody know more? (just curious really) From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Fri Mar 3 18:06:44 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: Mott in New Jersey? Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F06BE6B8D@ALFEXC5> No, but I'm right next door in Delaware, so I'd sure like to meet him! -- Tony > ---------- > From: Mike Ford[SMTP:mikeford@socal.rr.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 5:11 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Mott in New Jersey? > > In a conversation at a surplus joint yesterday someone told me about a guy > in New Jersey called "Mott" that is a big dealer in PDP11 type stuff. > Anybody know more? (just curious really) > > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Mar 4 10:42:31 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: FS: NEC PC-8201A 'Personal Application' kit Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000304084231.0094c670@mail.bluefeathertech.com> This one made me chuckle when I rescued it. It's a "Personal Application Kit" for the NEC PC-8201A handheld computer. It consists of a single data cassette (yes, a cassette -- looks just like an audio cassette, too) that's still in unbroken shrink-wrap and a user's manual. It's vintage 1983, based on the copyright, and contains the following apps. Memory Calculator Text Formatter Investment Portfolio Linear Forecaster Loan Evaluation Schedule Keeper Character Definer Bank Backup Bank Transfer Bank Accessor (these latter three seem to have something to do with internal memory). Terminal Mode Selector Bar Code Reader Music Programs Tank Game Snake Game First person to offer me $8.20 ($5.00 + Priority Mail shipping) takes it. First-come, first-served, based on E-mail time/date stamp. Thanks much! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Mar 4 12:57:13 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: wanted; DECwriter References: <20000303143840.G13234@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <38C15C89.D3538F0@idirect.com> >Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody know where I can pick up a DECwriter? (central Texas area > preferred...) Jerome Fine replies: Have you found one as yet? I have one available. But it is not in central Texas!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Mar 4 14:57:14 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: Need help with big DEC haul in Oakland Message-ID: Here's the deal; I've been offered some PDP stuff in Oakland (details in forwarded message below) and am trying to negotiate pickup. I'd originally contacted the company searching for documentation on an obsolete product, and got much, much more... I'm in LA and the trip would be exceedingly difficult to arrange for myself. Anyone in the Bay Area who is interested in anything he's got and can give me a hand let me know; if worse comes to worse, I'll fly up and ship it back. Cheers, Aaron ---------------Original Forwarded Message Below--------------------- Hi, We have a fair amount of info on that board - I will see what I can dig up and let you know. Do you or your group have any interest in more LSI-11 related documents, boards (CPUs, serial boards, disk controllers, etc) ST506 drives (36-200 MB) etc? Also, a bunch of DEC blocks and PCBs (I think we still have those) for building backplanes. We have quite a bit of this stuff lying around and I haven't been abe to bring myself to throw it all away. New, of course, it was worth a lot, but now it isn't worth anything except to the knowledgeable. It would be a regular treasure trove. It's too bad - I have already gotten rid of the BA11 boxes and things like that, but there are lots of boards, drives, misc h/w, s/w, etc. Also, a really nice HP plotter, a Pacific Page plotter, and a few goodies like that. A bunch of 300w power supplies that are good for building machines up. Any - lots of surplus stuff that would be appreciated by a group that needs such things. If you want it, and would give it a good home (whatever that means), I would be delighted to give it to you. Maybe somebody could drive a pickup up here sometime and we can load it up. If you don't, but know someone who is a real DEC '11 freak, please pass this mail on. I hate the idea of giving it to the garbage man, but I need the space for other things. At 09:20 PM 3/3/00 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, > >I spoke with someone several months ago about possibly obtaining any >information I possibly could on one of your obsolete products, the VRG-Q11 >q-bus display card for the PDP-11. The card has a 10-pin berg header on >the top edge, to which was attached a single bnc-type connector. > >I'd be really interested in being able to do *something* with this card, >and any information you could find on it at all would be very much >appreciated, even if it was just a clue as to an appropriate display to >use with it. > >Representing the San Gabriel Valley Classic Computer Enthusiasts group, I >must say the the particular machine that this card is in is one of our >most interesting pieces, and one of our biggest mysteries. It is a Plessey >clone that is made up of entirely (cpu excluded) non-DEC modules. Imagine >the fun we've had trying to dig up printsets for these cards! > >Either way, whether there's info available on it on some dusty shelf or >not, I'd really appreciate hearing from you. > >Regards, > >Aaron Finney > > >{=------------------------------------+------------------------------=} >| Aaron Finney | Voice: 626-857-5599 x314 | >| Manager, Information Systems | Fax: 626-857-0455 | >| Western Field Investigations, Inc | Email: A_Finney@wfi-inc.com | >{=------------------------------------+------------------------------=} > > > Victor Gold Peritek Corp 5550 Redwood Road Oakland, CA 94619 (510) 531-6500 FAX (510) 530-8563 email: victor@peritek.com From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Sat Mar 4 16:30:30 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: PDP emulation Message-ID: This may be old news to most. I have never been exposed to the PDP-11 series, but I know a lot of you are big fans. I accidently came across another RPI alum who offers his PDP emulator free for non-commercial use, so I though Id post some info about it: D Bit Developer of Ersatz-11, a software PDP-11 emulator for MS-DOS PCs giving emulation speed far faster than the PDP-11/93. The free demo version may be used for 30-day commercial evaluation, or unlimited personal/hobby use. Information about commercial versions is available here. Take a live RSX11M+ V4.5 system for a test drive here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- PDP-11 Emulation System Try out a live RSX11M+ V4.5 demo system Ersatz-11 emulates an entire PDP-11 system in software while running on low-cost PC hardware. It outperforms all of the hardware PDP-11 replacements on the market, outstripping them by a particularly wide margin in disk-intensive applications. Hardware PDP-11 replacements that use a Q-bus, Unibus, or ISA bus for I/O can't come close to Ersatz-11's disk performance because they are limited to the speed of the I/O bus for all disk transfers, regardless of actual disk (or disk cache) speed. Ersatz-11 avoids this bottleneck since it uses the PC's main memory and takes advantage of the tight disk-to-memory coupling in modern PCs. Ersatz-11 is by far the least expensive PDP-11 replacement product on the market. It quickly pays for itself in reduced maintenance, power, and climate control costs. Since its CPU is powered by the PC's processor and not a special-purpose processor card, there's no expensive custom hardware to maintain, and future upgrades to the PC's processor will make its PDP-11 emulation even faster. Orders for Ersatz-11 are usually shipped out the same day. Ersatz-11 features (Note: not all are available in Demo version) Processor emulation: PDP-11/23, PDP-11/24, PDP-11/34a, PDP-11/40, PDP-11/44, PDP-11/45, PDP-11/53, PDP-11/70, PDP-11/73, PDP-11/83, PDP-11/84, PDP-11/93, or PDP-11/94 CPU with individually selectable CPU features FP11/FPF11/FPJ11 floating point processor 4 MB main memory (248-400 KB in Demo and Lite versions) KW11L line clock (50/60 Hz, settable) Display register (using special hardware) Disk devices: UDA50,RQDX3/RAxx,RDxx,RXxx MSCP disks; number limited by available memory (not present in Demo version) RK11D/RK02,RK05 disk drives; up to 8 per controller RL11,RLV11,RLV12/RL01-02 disk drives; up to 4 per controller RK611/RK06-07 disk drives; up to 8 per controller RP11C/RP02,RP03 pack drives; up to 8 per controller RX211/RX02, RX11/RX01, or RXT11/RX01 dual 8" floppies RH11,RH70/RM02/03/05/80/RP04/05/06 removable pack disk drives; up to 8 per Massbus (full version only) RH11,RH70/RS03-04 fixed-head disk drives; up to 8 per Massbus RF11/RS11 fixed-head disk drives; up to 8 per controller RC11/RS64 fixed-head disk drives; up to 4 per controller Tape devices: KLESI,TQK50,TQK70/TU81,TKxx TMSCP tapes; number limited by available memory (not present in Demo version) RH11,RH70/TM03/TE16,TU45,TU77 magtape drives; up to 64 per Massbus TM11/TU10 magtape drives; up to 8 per controller TS11,TSU05,TSV05,M7454,TQK25/TS04,TS05,TU80,TK25 magtape drives; up to 8 per controller (most configurations use just one) TA11/TU60 dual cassette tape drive TC11/TU56 DECtape drives; up to 8 per controller PC11 paper tape reader/punch Communications devices: DL11 terminal ports; console and up to 31 others (16 total in Demo and Lite versions) DHQ11,DHU11,DHV11 serial multiplexers (full version only) DZ11,DZV11 serial multiplexers (full version only) LP11 printer ports; up to 4 DELUA Ethernet ports; up to 4 DEQNA Ethernet ports; up to 2 (not in Demo version) Other features: Versatile command language for controlling and monitoring emulation Configuration may be modified without halting or rebooting emulator Extensive logging facilities for capturing controller commands, terminal and line printer output, and Ethernet traffic Automatic configuration of floating CSR/vector addresses Automatic selection of controller types based on emulated CPU type (for devices such as the RL11/RLV12 whose Q-bus and Unibus versions have programming differences) PC hardware support Block devices: Disk images contained in DOS files Raw SCSI disk drives (full version only) Raw floppy drives (directly compatible with many types of DEC media) 8" drives may be attached using the D Bit FDADAP floppy disk adapter board. RAM disks in DPMI memory (full version only) Tape devices: Tape images contained in DOS files Raw SCSI tape drives (full version only) RAM tapes in DPMI memory (full version only) Character devices: (see comparison of multi-serial boards) Emulated VT100 on SVGA -- can flip between up to 12 virtual screens, VESA and Trident 132-column modes are supported; keyboard is fully customizable using scripts for each key, default keyscripts emulate VT100 keyboard including keypad COM ports (FIFOs supported if available, including 16C650A etc.) LPT ports Comtrol RocketPort/PCI multi-serial boards (full version only) Chase Research PCI-FAST multi-serial boards (full version only) Boca multi-serial boards (full version only) Digi AccelePort Xe (and older PC/Xe) multi-serial boards (full version only) Sound Blaster MIDI port Network devices: Any Ethernet interface with a packet driver NE2000 clones, ISA or PCI (built-in driver) Bus adapters:(note PCI vendor change) H & L Associates model UPG3600-PIO ISA/Unibus bridge (full version only, limited support now, full support in a future update) The Logical Company model BCI-2103 PCI/Q22 bridge (full version only) The Logical Company model BCI-2003 PCI/Unibus bridge (full version only) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- For more information contact info@dbit.com D Bit 11 Bank Street Troy, NY 12180 Voice: +1 (518) 271-6824 FAX: +1 (518) 272-3853 I have no idea if this is new - no idea if the product is good, bad or indifferent. Just thought somebody might be interested. Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs bobstek@ix.netcom.com From mark_k at iname.com Sat Mar 4 16:37:09 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: Disk-2-Disk for Amiga Message-ID: Hi, Disk-2-Disk is an old commercial program for the Amiga by Central Coast Software. There is a demo of it on Aminet (misc/emu/D2D_Demo.lha). D2D can be used to read data from C64 disks in an unmodified Amiga 5.25" floppy drive. According to the documentation in the demo archive, reading from tracks 1-17 is really slow because the program must do some tricks to account for real 1541 drives having variable speed. (There is a program on Aminet, misc/emu/1541.lha, which can read 1541 disks but this requires that the Amiga drive's speed be reduced.) Does anyone have an original copy of Disk-2-Disk that they would be willing to sell? If you do, please contact me. Regards, -- Mark From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 4 17:22:23 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: info hunt on some S100 boards... Message-ID: <200003042322.SAA10960@world.std.com> I just aquired and IMS inc multiuser S100 system the suize of a coffe table. To restore it I need docs/info. It appears to be a complete system. It has 4 Commercial Dynamics Z80 slaves {SCPU MK4cr ISS 1} 1 IMS cpu card {A644} 1 IMS 64k dynamic ram card with parity. {c00464} 1 floppy card 8" 765/8257 based, S8000 floppy control {c00401} 1 WD controller for 8" wini (IMS) {A821 2562-1} 1 IMS I/O board, 2 serial using 8250, parallel using 8255 {A631} Anyone with docs for any of the boards I'd like to talk to them. Allison From willik at bellatlantic.net Sat Mar 4 18:50:38 2000 From: willik at bellatlantic.net (Willi Kusche) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: Disk-2-Disk for Amiga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi! On 04-Mar-00, Mark wrote: >Does anyone have an original copy of Disk-2-Disk that they would be willing >to sell? If you do, please contact me. I seem to remember bidding on a copy of Disk-2-Disk on eBay quite some time ago. But the information on who won the item probably disappeared off eBay a long time ago. Willi From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 4 19:49:08 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: PDP emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >This may be old news to most. I have never been exposed to the PDP-11 >series, but I know a lot of you are big fans. I accidently came across >another RPI alum who offers his PDP emulator free for non-commercial use, so >I though Id post some info about it: John has also been a list member for a few months :^) Downside of his is you have to *OWN* a copy of the OS to use it legally. You can't use the Hobbyist Emulator license. That only applies to Bob Supniks emulator. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 4 19:54:03 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: Disk-2-Disk for Amiga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Disk-2-Disk is an old commercial program for the Amiga by Central Coast >Software. There is a demo of it on Aminet (misc/emu/D2D_Demo.lha). > >D2D can be used to read data from C64 disks in an unmodified Amiga 5.25" >floppy drive. According to the documentation in the demo archive, reading from >tracks 1-17 is really slow because the program must do some tricks to account >for real 1541 drives having variable speed. (There is a program on Aminet, >misc/emu/1541.lha, which can read 1541 disks but this requires that the Amiga >drive's speed be reduced.) > >Does anyone have an original copy of Disk-2-Disk that they would be willing >to sell? If you do, please contact me. If you've got a need to read a lot of C64 disks on an Amiga, and you've got Zorro 2 slots you might consider looking into a Catweasel board. Note, what formats they 'support' and what they *supply* software for reading is two different things, however, it works fine for reading C64 disks. I refuse to actually recommend this board to anyone because of the state fo the software support for it (actually there might be better software though, than when I got my board a couple years ago). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From willik at bellatlantic.net Sat Mar 4 09:54:27 2000 From: willik at bellatlantic.net (Willi Kusche) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: Disk-2-Disk for Amiga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi! Hmmm, looks as if I was up to no good almost exactly two years ago. It seems I disassembled Disk-2-Disk then modified it to convert the "read check" function into a "make disk image" function. I just tried it with an unmodified A1020 and it worked, but very slowly. Willi From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Mar 4 21:56:22 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: PDP emulation In-Reply-To: ; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 05:49:08PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20000304225622.A10784@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 05:49:08PM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Downside of his is > you have to *OWN* a copy of the OS to use it legally. You can't use the > Hobbyist Emulator license. That only applies to Bob Supniks emulator. There's always the SCO antique Unix license. It's not free, but at least it's affordable. But what I'd really like to do is write a set of free replacement RT-11 utilities to be used with Fuzzball etc. I started on DIR.SAV a while back but haven't had time to finish it (it does do a nice Y2K compatible dir listing including the TSX+ time stamp, but doesn't support all those innumerable switches yet), PIP.SAV and DUP.SAV would be some work but not impossible at all, and also I've always meant to flesh my puny FORTH mini-OS into something real. Cause what I'd really like to see is something you can legally run on a real PDP-11 w/o any "hobbyist" restrictions, since you never know when you might actually make some money by accident with these old machines. Media conversion, consulting, whatever. For a lot of us it's a really fine line between job and hobby! John Wilson D Bit From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 4 23:06:31 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: PDP emulation Message-ID: <200003050506.AAA19986@world.std.com> Message-ID: > >You can use it to run some of the unix binaries available fromthe PUPS >archive. Though for $100 you can get a source license too. > >Allison Come on now, everyone on the list should know by now that I wouldn't even think of the possibilty of running UNIX on a PDP-11 or a VAX :^) Seriously, I totally spaced that, probably because I don't normally consider such things. Note, amazingly I'm not opposed to running UNIX on a PDP-11 like I am to running it on VAXen. I just don't have the hardware to run the versions I'd be most interested in running (and don't have the room for it anyway). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From generic3 at home.com Sun Mar 5 06:57:49 2000 From: generic3 at home.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: Thinkpad 500 Battery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000305074852.0097eb10@popmail.voicenet.com> Does anybody know where I might acquire a battery for a Thinkpad 500? ------------------------------------------------------ On-Line Computer & Video Game Garage Sale http://www.voicenet.com/~generic gene@ehrich.com generic3@home.com Gene Ehrich From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Mar 5 07:51:20 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: New additions Message-ID: <001d01bf86a9$e4516dc0$1c721fd1@default> Had a pretty good Saturday got the following items: 1. Mac Powerbook 170 with adapter needs a little work but was 29 dollars. 2. Sear Tele-Games Super Video Arcade game with 12 cartridges and 2 paddles. 3. 22- Atari 2600 cartridges, two were new to me. Gateway to Apshai and Haunted House. 4. A Grid 286 and 386 notebooks. 5. About 25 books and manuals for the collection. 6. New in the numeric keypad for the Apple II by The Keyboard Company. 7. Several new mouse pads for that part of the collection. 8. About 10 new cups to add to that part of my collection also. All in all it was a good day since I also picked up several other items that are 10 years old yet but were too good to pass up. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000305/f2a37411/attachment.html From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Sun Mar 5 09:48:00 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: PDP emulation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>This may be old news to most. I have never been exposed to the PDP-11 >>series, but I know a lot of you are big fans. I accidently came across >>another RPI alum who offers his PDP emulator free for non-commercial use, so >>I though Id post some info about it: > >John has also been a list member for a few months :^) Downside of his is >you have to *OWN* a copy of the OS to use it legally. You can't use the >Hobbyist Emulator license. That only applies to Bob Supniks emulator. Ooops! I guess that this just proves that I don't pay much attention to the PDP items - and when I sort my mail by sender, I see that John has been a lot more active than I. So not only am I old and fat, but my attention wanders and my memory is ..... (can't think of the word right now). Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs bobstek@ix.netcom.com | From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 5 09:59:26 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: PDP emulation Message-ID: <200003051559.KAA22056@world.std.com> Y2K compatible dir listing including the TSX+ time stamp, but doesn't Come on now, everyone on the list should know by now that I wouldn't even While moving and sorting through the last of the books and magazines from our old house, I found my long-lost copy of "Finite State Fantasies", a semi-educational computer cartoon book that I bought in a Byte Shoppe about 25 years ago. It's kind of cool and funny, and I would like to scan it and put it up on my web site for others to enjoy, but I don't want to whiz in anyone's Cheerios in terms of copyrights. I have done some web searching, but couldn't find any current contact information for Richard Didday (is he still around?), Matrix Publications (whose name appears on the copyright statement), or Dilithium Press (who, based on my searches, seems to either have been the precursor or the successor of Matrix). Does anyone have any information on any of these folks, so I can try to get their permission to scan and share this strange book? -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Mar 5 11:24:30 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: FW: S/36 help needed Message-ID: <38C2984E.2EC2FFDE@bigfoot.com> Please contact this person direct, not me. If he's just starting to get into classics he me join the list, else he may be interested int rading the stuff out or selling it.... ------------------------------------------- Rich shinebarger wellsville, ny usa - Sunday, March 05, 2000 at 09:27:33 i need info on an old ibm system/34 it is operational and i have terminals for it but they wont connect to it. also i need to know how i can hook a DOS computer to a win95/98 network and i have an old iomega disk drive that takes 20meg 8 1/2 inch cassettes i need drivers or info on how to set it up From earl at evansweb.com Sun Mar 5 11:49:13 2000 From: earl at evansweb.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: PDP emulation References: Message-ID: <38C29E19.FBA1E581@evansweb.com> Hi everybody, A person can learn some really interesting things on this mailing list :-) As a result of this thread, I discovered PDP-11 emulation. Many years ago (and then some), I cut my teeth on a PDP-11 at the local college. Was only in junior high at the time - had to sneak into the computer lab to get some time on the terminals. I was used to FORTRAN batch jobs with a 2-day turnaround. Real-time interaction was a whole new ball game. This is when programming really became fun (except when the school's sysadmin would see me :-/ and gently remind me that the lab was for college students only). BTW, Bob Supnik's emulator is the one I downloaded, and it includes the hobbyist license for certain versions of OSes. Too cool, flying RSTS again! Thanks for the tip, and helping me relive a memory. - Earl From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Mar 5 11:59:13 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: Richard Didday/Matrix Publishers/Dilithium Press? References: Message-ID: <38C2A071.E3757E3E@bigfoot.com> Doesn't the copyright thing have a length of time before becoming public domain like patents do? If that's the case it may be alright to use it in the way you want. Bill Richman wrote: > While moving and sorting through the last of the books and magazines from > our old house, I found my long-lost copy of "Finite State Fantasies", a > semi-educational computer cartoon book that I bought in a Byte Shoppe about > 25 years ago. It's kind of cool and funny, and I would like to scan it and > put it up on my web site for others to enjoy, but I don't want to whiz in > anyone's Cheerios in terms of copyrights. I have done some web searching, > but couldn't find any current contact information for Richard Didday (is he > still around?), Matrix Publications (whose name appears on the copyright > statement), or Dilithium Press (who, based on my searches, seems to either > have been the precursor or the successor of Matrix). Does anyone have any > information on any of these folks, so I can try to get their permission to > scan and share this strange book? > > -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) > Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r > Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with > Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From acierno at mindspring.com Sun Mar 5 12:07:21 2000 From: acierno at mindspring.com (mark acierno) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: KIM-1 Message-ID: I just got a kim-1 (with KIMEX expansion board) was wondering if anyone still had a copy of tiny basic ( for KIM) arround in any format (text, tape, ect.) or knew where there was a copy on the web. I know this is a long shot! mark ------- ICQ 40439199 http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2 From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 5 12:28:34 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: KIM-1 Message-ID: <000601bf86d0$a681b0a0$0400c0a8@winbook> There's no telling what you'll find, but why not take a look at and see if there isn't a pointer you can use. Dick -----Original Message----- From: mark acierno To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, March 05, 2000 11:28 AM Subject: KIM-1 >I just got a kim-1 (with KIMEX expansion board) was wondering if anyone >still had a copy of tiny basic ( for KIM) arround in any format (text, >tape, ect.) or knew where there was a copy on the web. > >I know this is a long shot! > > >mark > >------- > >ICQ 40439199 >http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2 > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 5 12:56:47 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: PDP emulation In-Reply-To: <200003051559.KAA23989@world.std.com> Message-ID: > >Unix is not my favorite but for PDP-11s, it's historical. ;) That's the *only* real reason I'm interested in running it on a PDP-11. I like my UNIX *fast* and with a little glitz! > >V7 runs nice on E-11. Runs nice on my 11/73 too. > >Allison. REALLY?!?! What are the hardware requirements for V7? I thought they were a lot more restrictive than that. I'm assuming that it does not support MSCP disks. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From acierno at mindspring.com Sun Mar 5 12:59:19 2000 From: acierno at mindspring.com (mark acierno) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: KIM-1 OOOPS Message-ID: I forgot to ask if anyone know of a good assembler or cross-assembler for the KIM-1? mark ------- ICQ 40439199 http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 5 12:52:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:00 2005 Subject: SWC0166 transistor (HP9100B ROM assy) Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 653 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000305/e177e28d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 5 12:54:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: HP3421A temperature measurements Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 412 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000305/842db2ab/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 5 13:58:04 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: Richard Didday/Matrix Publishers/Dilithium Press? In-Reply-To: <38C2A071.E3757E3E@bigfoot.com> References: Message-ID: >Doesn't the copyright thing have a length of time before becoming public >domain >like patents do? If that's the case it may be alright to use it in the way >you >want. Dream on. It's currently around 95 years (I think it varies depeding on who produced it) and Di$ney and Gang are trying to get it extended even farther than they already have (they got it extended by 20 years a couple years ago). If they have there way a lot of stuff in Project Gutenberg is very likely to go *back* under copywrite. You might want to check the following link http://www.public.asu.edu/~dkarjala/ Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 5 14:06:11 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: KIM-1 OOOPS Message-ID: <002001bf86de$4194dd80$0400c0a8@winbook> You haven't visited www.6502.org yet, have you? Dick -----Original Message----- From: mark acierno To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, March 05, 2000 12:18 PM Subject: KIM-1 OOOPS >I forgot to ask if anyone know of a good assembler or cross-assembler for >the KIM-1? > > >mark > >------- > >ICQ 40439199 >http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2 > > From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun Mar 5 14:30:38 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: HP3421A temperature measurements In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony: The TEM command is setup to give deg C readings from T thermocouples. Carlos. On Sun, 5 Mar 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > I need to log the temperature of something over time, and I recall that > the HP3421A data acquisition unit has a TEMperature function, so I > thought I'd use that. > > Does anyone know what sort of thermocouple I should be using with it. I > asusme I just connect said thermocouple to one of the inputs on the > scanner assembly (which seems to do cold-junction compensation). > > Thanks in advance for any help > > -tony > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Mar 5 14:58:18 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: PDP emulation In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: PDP emulation" (Mar 5, 10:56) References: Message-ID: <10003052058.ZM5824@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 5, 10:56, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >V7 runs nice on E-11. Runs nice on my 11/73 too. > > > >Allison. > > REALLY?!?! What are the hardware requirements for V7? I thought they were > a lot more restrictive than that. I'm assuming that it does not support > MSCP disks. No, it doesn't, but it does run on any Q-bus machine with an MMU and suitable disks. I've had it running on an 11/23 for the best part of ten years, and it was installed on the same machine almost as long before I got it. Present setup is 11/23, 256KW, 2 x DLV11J, RLV11 + 2 x RL02, RXV11 workalike, IBV11, BDV11. Allison, can you remind me what you did to make it work on an 11/73? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 5 15:35:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: HP3421A temperature measurements In-Reply-To: from "cem14@cornell.edu" at Mar 5, 0 03:30:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 237 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000305/8ca52f1f/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 5 15:48:45 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: PDP emulation In-Reply-To: <10003052058.ZM5824@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: PDP emulation" (Mar 5, 10:56) Message-ID: Peter Turnbull wrote: >> REALLY?!?! What are the hardware requirements for V7? I thought they >were >> a lot more restrictive than that. I'm assuming that it does not support >> MSCP disks. > >No, it doesn't, but it does run on any Q-bus machine with an MMU and >suitable disks. I've had it running on an 11/23 for the best part of ten >years, and it was installed on the same machine almost as long before I got >it. Present setup is 11/23, 256KW, 2 x DLV11J, RLV11 + 2 x RL02, RXV11 >workalike, IBV11, BDV11. > >Allison, can you remind me what you did to make it work on an 11/73? Cool! I've got an 11/23 that is very close to that config (swap the RXV11 for a pair of LPV11's and you have my config), I think I might have to see about getting it into a state where it will boot something and then see about getting the SCO license. It would be nice to finally have a use for the system besides a rack shelf :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Mar 5 16:21:14 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: KIM-1 OOOPS In-Reply-To: from mark acierno at "Mar 5, 0 12:59:19 pm" Message-ID: <200003052221.OAA27110@oa.ptloma.edu> ::I forgot to ask if anyone know of a good assembler or cross-assembler for ::the KIM-1? Try http://stockholm.ptloma.edu/cbm/xa/ -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Since we're all here, we must not be all there. -- Bob "Mountain" Beck ----- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Mar 5 17:26:26 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: PDP emulation In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: PDP emulation" (Mar 5, 13:48) References: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: PDP emulation" (Mar 5 10:56) Message-ID: <10003052326.ZM5911@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 5, 13:48, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Peter Turnbull wrote: > >it. Present setup is 11/23, 256KW, 2 x DLV11J, RLV11 + 2 x RL02, RXV11 > >workalike, IBV11, BDV11. > > > >Allison, can you remind me what you did to make it work on an 11/73? > > Cool! I've got an 11/23 that is very close to that config (swap the RXV11 > for a pair of LPV11's and you have my config), I think I might have to see > about getting it into a state where it will boot something and then see > about getting the SCO license. I'm pretty sure one of the binary images at PUPS is suitable for an 11/23 with RL02s. Warren has some notes on how to download an image and copy it to a real drive. > It would be nice to finally have a use for the system besides a rack shelf :^) that's exactly what one of my 11/73s was being used for when I first saw it :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 5 17:11:55 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: PDP emulation Message-ID: <200003052311.SAA11052@world.std.com> <> >V7 runs nice on E-11. Runs nice on my 11/73 too. <> > <> >Allison. <> <> REALLY?!?! What are the hardware requirements for V7? I thought they <>were a lot more restrictive than that. I'm assuming that it does not <>support MSCP disks. No MSCP, RL02. ;) I'd need to run 2.11 to get MSCP. Message-ID: > >LPV11s??? driving a LN01 or LP2x? ;) You need a RLV11 or RLV21 for a RL02 >as that is what the V7 binary image is for. > >Allison No, soaking up electricity if I ever turn the thing on. :^) I didn't get the printers that were available with the system, except for the DECwriter II. I just have never bothered to get the system up and running, so I've never pulled them. The system has a RLV11 in it, which is why it's the one I'd use, I don't have a spare RLV12 and the one I have is in my MicroVAX III. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Mar 5 19:06:02 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: Copyright extension rant (was Re: Richard Didday/Matrix Publishers/Dilithium Press?) In-Reply-To: <38C2A071.E3757E3E@bigfoot.com> (message from Russ Blakeman on Sun, 05 Mar 2000 11:59:13 -0600) References: <38C2A071.E3757E3E@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <20000306010602.24093.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Doesn't the copyright thing have a length of time before becoming public > domain like patents do? If that's the case it may be alright to use it in > the way you want. Yes, and Congress in their wisdom has recently extended it to 95 years. On average, over the last fourty years they've done a year-per-year increase. It appears that they intend to keep this up forever, despite the fact that Article I Section 8 Clause 8 of the US Constitution only grants the Congress the power "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for LIMITED TIMES to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries" (emphasis added). The intent of the system was that by granting a monopoly for a limited time, it would encourage the creation of works which would eventually pass into the public domain, for the benefit of all. But Congress is intent on making sure that works never become public domain so long as there may be money to be made from them. Apparently we will never again expand the body of literature or music that is public domain. Once the works are no longer making a profit, they will go out of print, because only the publisher has the rights to them. Unlike the works of Beethoven and Dickens, which may well be accessible to the public for thousands of years, the works of today's great composers and authors will likely disappear forever. And then consider software. By the time software goes out of copyright, even if binaries still exist, the source code probably won't. Maybe people 95 years from now won't actually want to use today's software for business purposes, but they won't even be able to look at it for historical reasons. One good thing about the patent system is that the inventor or assignee has to make maintenance payments or the patent will lapse prematurely. I strongly believe that the same thing should be done with copyrights. Once it is no longer worthwhile for the owner to pay to keep the copyright up to date, the work should enter the public domain. I also believe that copyrights on unpublished works should be disallowed, as they do not "promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts". These sort of copyrights are used for software source code. In my opinion, any work for which Copyright protection is desired (published or not) should be required to be registered, and a copy (in entirety) be filed with the Copyright office, such that it is available for public inspection, and that upon expiration of the copyright it is guaranteed to be available to those that want it. Currently copyright registration is optional, although without registration there are fewer legal remedies for infringement. This does not seem to "promote the Progress" in any obvious way. Well, enough of my ranting. For more information on copyright term extension, please see the web page: http://www.public.asu.edu/~dkarjala/ Which discusses and has links to infomration on several current legal battles related to copyright term. Eric From kbd at ndx.net Sun Mar 5 21:00:44 2000 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: Boards available for Trade In-Reply-To: <20000306010602.24093.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Had some free cycles this weekend and inventoried some of my extra stuff. Here's a list in case anyone is looking for stuff: http://www.ndx.net/trade.html Kirk (kbd@ndx.net) From cem14 at cornell.edu Sun Mar 5 22:02:17 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: HP3421A temperature measurements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000305230217.00e5894c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> I should have added in my first message: it is possible to use a different kind of thermocouple by tracing back the original voltage, and do cold junction compensation in software for the actual kind of thermocouple that you have. I believe there is even a small program in BASIC, as well as the coefficients for conversion using polynomials, in the original 3421 manual. I can dig it up if you want; let me know which type of thermocouple you will be using. Carlos. At 09:35 PM 03/05/2000 +0000, you wrote: >> >> Tony: > >[HP3421 temperature measurements] > >> >> The TEM command is setup to give deg C readings from T thermocouples. > >Thanks for the information. I think I can find type T thermocouples in >the catalogues with no problem.. > >-tony > > From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Mar 5 22:15:37 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: Copyright extension rant (was Re: Richard Didday/Matrix Publishers/Dilithium Press?) In-Reply-To: <20000306010602.24093.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 06, 2000 01:06:02 AM Message-ID: <200003060415.VAA23880@calico.litterbox.com> > Apparently we will never again expand the body of literature or music > that is public domain. Once the works are no longer making a profit, they > will go out of print, because only the publisher has the rights to them. > Unlike the works of Beethoven and Dickens, which may well be accessible > to the public for thousands of years, the works of today's great composers > and authors will likely disappear forever. I find it hard to picture this as a huge loss. > > And then consider software. By the time software goes out of copyright, > even if binaries still exist, the source code probably won't. Maybe > people 95 years from now won't actually want to use today's software > for business purposes, but they won't even be able to look at it for > historical reasons. I think alot of the best stuff is already open source. Sure, Microsoft Office will lapse into obscurity, but again, I find it hard to construe this as a huge loss. I agree with your hypothesis that the extended copyrights are abusive, especially if they allow work to be held unpublished, and I like the solution you suggest of requiring payments to a copyright office to maintain copyright. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 6 01:58:44 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: PDP emulation In-Reply-To: Allison J Parent "Re: PDP emulation" (Mar 5, 18:11) References: <200003052311.SAA10152@world.std.com> Message-ID: <10003060758.ZM6182@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 5, 18:11, Allison J Parent wrote: > I forget if V7 needed I&D space or 2.11 meaning the 11/23 was not enough. > The 11/73 has the added I&D bits where 11/23 only has user registers and > MMU. BSD2.11 does need separate I&D, but V7 doesn't. If you don't have separate I&D, ISTR you need to build it for "small machine", and it runs a bit slower. > Got it onto a RL02 pack. It's the supnick emulator V7 binary image for > RL02 and it will run from RL02 IF the pack is a RL02k-DC (no defects). > The reason for that is the image is for a theoretical perfect disk and > it's bad block map is zero defects. > > The hardware is 11/73(KA11J-A), 2MB ram, DLV11-F, DLV11J, RLV21/RL02, > RXV12/RX02, RQDX3/RD52(x2)/RX33, TQK50. It's a very stuffed BA11N box > with a CD/CD (18 slots) backplane. I tried swapping my M8186 (11/23) for M8192 (11/73) but it doesn't run. Maybe I need to rebuild the kernel (I've got an original distribution, not one of the images from PUPS), but perhaps it would work with more memory or by swapping RLV11 for RLV12. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 6 08:17:25 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: info hunt on some S100 boards... In-Reply-To: <200003042322.SAA10960@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000306091725.3f97709a@mailhost.intellistar.net> I've already send Allison a message about this but here's a bit more for anyone else on the list that's interested. Allison, IMS is Industrial Micro Systems. They're still in business selling heavy duty rack mount PCs. Also you may be in luck. I just heard from a guy that has an IMS computer that runs CPM and that is probably S-100. He doesn't know much about it but he mentioned that he has a pile of docs. Here's a portion of his message. >> > >> >I'll take another look at the "beast". It belonged to an accountant >> >that worked from her home. She needed some software on it modified >> >modified and I did a good job for her. Later when she "upgraded" to a >> >PC she gave me the system. I put it in my basement and never fired it >> >up again. Now it is out at my airplane hangar/vintage computer musuem. >> >I don't think I want to part with it yet but I'll try to find more info. >> >The "beast" is a Industrial Micro Systems (IMS) Model 8X-00/60, SN: >8325-W662-2316, with built in dual 8" floppies. It has an external IMS >three bay box populated with two more 8" floppies. Another external >unit holds the HD (Didn't get the model number or size). The keyboard >says "Visual 50". The computer is kinda boring. The front pannel just >has power and reset switches, no toggles like the IMSAI 8080. Would >like to find more info on it. Have some manuals and CP/M disks. It was >working 10 years ago when dismantled but has been moved three times >since then and not stored very well. I have no idea if the HD was >parked correctly before power down, or if parking was automatic yet by >then. I've almost got that corner of my hangar workshop cleared out >enough to reassemble that machine. At 06:22 PM 3/4/00 -0500, you wrote: >I just aquired and IMS inc multiuser S100 system the suize of a coffe >table. To restore it I need docs/info. It appears to be a complete >system. > >It has 4 Commercial Dynamics Z80 slaves {SCPU MK4cr ISS 1} >1 IMS cpu card {A644} >1 IMS 64k dynamic ram card with parity. {c00464} >1 floppy card 8" 765/8257 based, S8000 floppy control {c00401} >1 WD controller for 8" wini (IMS) {A821 2562-1} >1 IMS I/O board, 2 serial using 8250, parallel using 8255 {A631} > >Anyone with docs for any of the boards I'd like to talk to them. > > >Allison > > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 6 07:41:53 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: PDP emulation In-Reply-To: <10003060758.ZM6182@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > > I forget if V7 needed I&D space or 2.11 meaning the 11/23 was not enough. > > The 11/73 has the added I&D bits where 11/23 only has user registers and > > MMU. > > BSD2.11 does need separate I&D, but V7 doesn't. If you don't have separate > I&D, ISTR you need to build it for "small machine", and it runs a bit > slower. I knew it was something like that. > I tried swapping my M8186 (11/23) for M8192 (11/73) but it doesn't run. > Maybe I need to rebuild the kernel (I've got an original distribution, not > one of the images from PUPS), but perhaps it would work with more memory or > by swapping RLV11 for RLV12. Cpu doesn't run or doesn't run V7? The image I have only wants some 256k of ram out of all teh installed ram. I get the impression it was configured for an 11/34 or similar and that is mostly a 11/23 save for the 11/23 mmu can go to 22 bits. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 6 07:58:45 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: info hunt on some S100 boards... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000306091725.3f97709a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: Brief description of this one I have. I've yet to hunt for model numbers on it. It's a rack mounted s100 backplane (IMS) mounted in the back of a short 30" high rack and the other side has slots for multiple 8" drives. As I got it it had 4 HH 8" floppies and a 8" hard disk. It's not your average s100 crate and is definately coffee table size and largely full of air. It definatly comes in as the largest s100 crate I've seen to date. The backplane fillings suggest a 4-6 user system based on the slave cpus and serial cards. The OS is used is unknown but suspected it is CPM, I'll know more once I bring it up and assuming the HD is good. I am looking for data on the slave boards still, they are marked as Austrailian. Commercial dynamics is the company. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Mar 6 08:01:26 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: PDP emulation Message-ID: <000306090126.25602e34@trailing-edge.com> >> I tried swapping my M8186 (11/23) for M8192 (11/73) but it doesn't run. >> Maybe I need to rebuild the kernel (I've got an original distribution, not >> one of the images from PUPS), but perhaps it would work with more memory or >> by swapping RLV11 for RLV12. >Cpu doesn't run or doesn't run V7? The image I have only wants some 256k >of ram out of all teh installed ram. I get the impression it was >configured for an 11/34 or similar and that is mostly a 11/23 save for the >11/23 mmu can go to 22 bits. The V6 and V7 images currently available have device drivers that were built for Unibus systems. They expect a Unibus Map to be present for accessing memory above 256Kbytes (many of the drivers were built to always expect a Unibus map). The "safe" thing to do on a Q-bus system (or an emulated Q-bus system, like Supnik's emulator) is to run with 256Kbytes or less. (Even that isn't perfectly safe, some of the tape drivers simply refuse to work with a Unibus map no matter how much/little memory is there.) (And yes, I know there are Q-bus systems with Unibus maps, but I'm ignoring those right now.) Tim. From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Mon Mar 6 08:03:04 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: info hunt on some S100 boards... In-Reply-To: <200003042322.SAA10960@world.std.com> Message-ID: Herb Johnson has the following docs at http://pluto.njcc.com/~hjohnson/d_ims.html: Industrial Micro Systems (IMS) International IMS-C00232 8K memory board, 2 pgs IMS-c00231 8K memory board, 4 pgs Model 400. 430 floppy disk controller, 10 pgs Model 440 I/O board, 32 pgs Model 464 Dynamic RAM Board, 10 pgs Model 480 4 line asynch Comm. controller, 16 pgs Model 491? - hard disk controller? 60 & 26 pin connectors. 11 pgs Model 451 Z80 processor board, 11 pgs Model 631 I/O controller board, 14 pgs Model 664 Z80 processor board, 20 pgs Model 740 I/O processor board, 17 pgs Model 930 floppy disk controller, general description, 8 pgs Model 5000 power supply, 2 pgs Model 8000 power supply, 2 pgs Disk Storage Subsystem - 8" Winchester drives, 10 pgs Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs bobstek@ix.netcom.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Allison J Parent Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2000 6:22 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: info hunt on some S100 boards... I just aquired and IMS inc multiuser S100 system the suize of a coffe table. To restore it I need docs/info. It appears to be a complete system. It has 4 Commercial Dynamics Z80 slaves {SCPU MK4cr ISS 1} 1 IMS cpu card {A644} 1 IMS 64k dynamic ram card with parity. {c00464} 1 floppy card 8" 765/8257 based, S8000 floppy control {c00401} 1 WD controller for 8" wini (IMS) {A821 2562-1} 1 IMS I/O board, 2 serial using 8250, parallel using 8255 {A631} Anyone with docs for any of the boards I'd like to talk to them. Allison From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Mon Mar 6 08:24:11 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: Informer terminal Message-ID: I came across two terminals that look like they are portable. Labeled Informer model 207, the keyboard is in the cover of the display and clips to it with two metal clips. There is a fold down handle on the back and it is covered by a canvas dust cover. There are connectors for a phone connection and external keyboard on the back. It looks like some sort of troubleshooting terminal. I have searched the Web and only found 1 reference. Most of the incorrect references are to French terminals. Does anybody know anything more about them? Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From adavie at taswegian.com Mon Mar 6 08:38:07 2000 From: adavie at taswegian.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: FS: Datanumerics, well a whole lot, really Message-ID: <011501bf8779$9c375dd0$77f438cb@SLIPSTICK> Hi to everyone. I'm no longer a member of the list, but some of you will remember me :)) For personal reasons, I'm currenlty offering my entire collection of collections for sale. I have some quite interesting vintage computers - including the beautiful Datanumerics DL-8A (a front-panel switch 8080 beast) and a homebrew S100 system with a Signetics 2650 processor emulating 8080. Also, rare home computers such as the Hanimex Pencil II. I am also selling my entire collection of Soviet Calculators (some 100 units), but only as a whole collection. I will be delighted to do photographs for any interested purchasers. Thanks for your interest - the URL is in my signature, below. Cheers A -- Andrew Davie adavie@taswegian.com or adavie@mad.scientist.com I'm selling my vintage computers, calculators, and video games... list at http://www.taswegian.com/TwoHeaded/forsale.html see my award-winning Museum of Soviet Calculators http://www.taswegian.com/MOSCOW/soviet.html From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 6 10:28:56 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: Informer terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000306112856.26974b12@mailhost.intellistar.net> Mike, I don't know anything about them but I did see a couple in a scrap place about a year ago. FWIW, Joe At 08:24 AM 3/6/00 -0600, you wrote: >I came across two terminals that look like they are portable. Labeled >Informer model 207, the keyboard is in the cover of the display and clips >to it with two metal clips. There is a fold down handle on the back and it >is covered by a canvas dust cover. There are connectors for a phone >connection and external keyboard on the back. It looks like some sort of >troubleshooting terminal. I have searched the Web and only found 1 >reference. Most of the incorrect references are to French terminals. Does >anybody know anything more about them? >Mike >mmcfadden@cmh.edu > > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Mar 6 10:07:39 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: HUGE additions this last week! Message-ID: <000801bf8786$187a5120$aa2ad1d8@default> Outside of the DEC warehouse stuff onroute I brought my uncle and aunt down with a 24' truck to the US to a prior DEC FE home and here is what was loaded up: DEC PDP -------------- 3 boxes of Straight PDP-8 manuals: maintenance, user, software and hardware, engineering, etc. a few "System Modules Books" Boxes of DECsystem 10 manuals many boxes of DEC manuals, prints, and paper tape software (really cool) Tri-data "File Cart" for the PDP-8 with 50 carts, boards, software , etc... TU56 tape drive parts and Astrotype DECtape units 60 trays of PDP-8, PDP-11 paper tape software 2 large boxes filled with DECTapes from PDP-8 and PDP-8 PDP-11 M8049 - many of them!!!!! :-) :-) :-) DRV-11J approx. 20 of them , probably more. TU45s PDP-11/05s PDP-11/03s PDP-11/35s PDP-11/40s RK07s TE16s Core memory systems (ME11, MM11, etc) RX02s AT least a hundred boxes of manuals Table top TU58 6 Decwriters S-100 --------- Altair 8800 , serial #80, all original MITS boards (15 boards), mostly rev 0, 6 4K RAM boards, 1 CPU, dual floppy controller (2 boards), PROM board, display board? serial/rs232 board, and others I can't identify yet. It came with 3 boxes of Manals, many early newsletters, engineering drawings, etc... and software from MITS. Dual Floppy 8" disk system. Amazingly, the 8800 is in mint condition, unmarked. I never really got into the 8800 hardware back then so I have no idea what some of the boards are... Cromemco? (sp) S-100 system with manuals and software - 4 floppy drives. I know nothing about this unit other than it's heavy. Victor/Vector? Graphics S-100 computer with dual external 5 1/4" floppies, books, etc.. I can't remember the manufacturer name but this board was used with an extender on an S100 system and has all the flip switches and lights to control the micro like an Altair 8800. It came with manuals, etc... HP ---- HP 1000 engineering, user, etc.. manuals HP 21MX system with papertape, mag tape, manuals, drawings, etc... Varian : (Al?) ------------------- Varian 620 user manuals and some others (about 7). Special thanks to Kevin Stumpf for finding emergency storage space. This load took up 400 FT^2. over 300 boxes of manuals, software and *many* PDP-11 unibus boards and 9 cabinets. There is still a few hundred boxes of manuals for old IBM, Burroughs prototype material left there for future pick up. A lot of hidden stuff in the load yet as we had *no* time to browse! This load was *very* difficult as it was located in a 2 story house with basement and garage :-( john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Mon Mar 6 12:39:43 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: HUGE additions this last week! In-Reply-To: <000801bf8786$187a5120$aa2ad1d8@default> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John B Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 11:08 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: HUGE additions this last week! Congratulations! You made a great find. Never knew the PDP line, but here is some info on the S-100: >S-100 >--------- >Altair 8800 , serial #80, all original MITS boards (15 boards), mostly rev >0, 6 4K RAM boards, 1 CPU, dual floppy controller (2 boards), PROM board, >display board? serial/rs232 board, and others I can't identify yet. It came >with 3 boxes of Manals, many early newsletters, engineering drawings, etc... >and software from MITS. >Dual Floppy 8" disk system. >Amazingly, the 8800 is in mint condition, unmarked. >I never really got into the 8800 hardware back then so I have no idea what >some of the boards are... Obviously any Altair is a find ... (drool, drool) >Cromemco? (sp) S-100 system with manuals and software - 4 floppy drives. I >know nothing about this unit other than it's heavy. Cromemco (from Crother Memorial Hall - the founders' dormitory at Stanford) started off making S-100 boards. Their 8k EPROM-burner Bytesaver was popular with Altair and IMSAI owners, as was their TV-Dazzler (128x128 color graphics). They then designed a 2/4 MHz switchable Z-80 CPU card which upgraded a lot of IMSAI's. Now that the company was cooking, they started manufacturing systems - notably the Z-2 which (as you note) is built like a tank. Their version of CP/M was CDOS, but they were ahead of their time in providing multi-tasking, multi-user Cromix - an 8-bit version of unix. They went defunct around 1986 - another casualty of the PC. They were considered the Cadillac of S-100 systems. >Victor/Vector? Graphics S-100 computer with dual external 5 1/4" floppies, >books, etc.. Vector Graphics started off selling 8k static memory boards and then started selling S-100 systems. It was notable at the time (1976) for being owned and operated by a woman, Laurie Harp, in a very male-dominated industry (apologies to, and for, Ampl' Annie - Trivia Question: Who did Ampl' Annie hawk wares for?). I believe Laurie's husband designed the memory board. >I can't remember the manufacturer name but this board was used with an >extender on an S100 system and has all the flip switches and lights to >control the micro like an Altair 8800. It came with manuals, etc... I don't recall this one. If I have time to peruse some old Kilobauds, I will research it. Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs bobstek@ix.netcom.com From dastar at siconic.com Mon Mar 6 13:07:12 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update Message-ID: <200003061910.LAA28609@siconic.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1944 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000306/e4449e6f/attachment.bin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 6 12:27:18 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: SWC0166 transistor (HP9100B ROM assy) In-Reply-To: <200003052311.SAA09268@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 5, 0 06:11:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1949 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000306/d4d53160/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 6 12:32:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: HP3421A temperature measurements In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000305230217.00e5894c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> from "Carlos Murillo" at Mar 5, 0 11:02:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1066 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000306/1b23a6dc/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Mar 6 14:26:36 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: Informer terminal Message-ID: <20000306202636.11834.qmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- "McFadden, Mike" wrote: > I came across two terminals that look like they are portable. Labeled > Informer model 207, I have an Informer portable terminal. I can't verify the model number because mine is in storage, but what _I_ have, emulates an IBM 3274 w/attached 3270. You can also daisy-chain several of these terminals together and only the first one acts as a terminal controller - the rest are dumb terminals. I got mine at the Dayton Hamvention about ten years ago when lots of them appeared at several booths simultaneously. It is _not_ an ASYNC ASCII terminal. It is _not_ VT100 compatible. It is a genuine IBM SNA PU Type 2. We used to compare its behavior on an HP Line Analyzer to our own SNA product. It helped us find a couple of bugs on our end during the BIND. Theoretically, you could aquire the Linux SNA package and attempt to use it there, but I know I'd have to have one compelling reason to try. If you happen to need to dial up a 4331 or 4381 Mainframe, *this* is the tool. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain goes away on 15 March. See http://www.infinet.com/ for details. Please update your address lists to reflect my new address: erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 6 15:15:52 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: SWC0166 transistor (HP9100B ROM assy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My first try would be 2n2219, 2n3638 or even the standard roach (2n3904 or 2n2222). Allison From wanderer at bos.nl Mon Mar 6 16:50:08 2000 From: wanderer at bos.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update References: <200003061910.LAA28609@siconic.com> Message-ID: <38C43620.3B08@bos.nl> Sellam Ismail wrote: > The pages in Deutsch, English, Francais and Dutch (what is that called 'Nederlands' > > I hope to see my European counterparts there. I am also planning to > visit the UK and Amsterdam for a couple days so if anyone from those When do you plan to be in Amsterdam? > places would like to meet then please get in touch with me. My e-mail > address is . > Edward -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer@bos.nl | Europarlementariers: zakken- http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | vullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95/98 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R / '97 TL1000S | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates! From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 6 16:43:03 2000 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update In-Reply-To: <200003061910.LAA28609@siconic.com> References: <200003061910.LAA28609@siconic.com> Message-ID: In article <200003061910.LAA28609@siconic.com>, Sellam Ismail writes > VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany What is it likely to cost to get in? Does anyone know of any cheap campsites near Munich? -- Regards Pete From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Mar 6 17:39:56 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: HUGE additions this last week! In-Reply-To: References: <000801bf8786$187a5120$aa2ad1d8@default> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000306183956.272fe4fa@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:39 PM 3/6/00 -0500, Bob wrote: >>I can't remember the manufacturer name but this board was used with an >>extender on an S100 system and has all the flip switches and lights to >>control the micro like an Altair 8800. It came with manuals, etc... > >I don't recall this one. If I have time to peruse some old Kilobauds, I >will research it. Is that the extender board made by Bob Mullen? It has his name on the top RH corner and the model number TB-2. There's a single 7 segment display on the top LH side. If that's what you have then I have docs for it. Joe From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 6 15:01:15 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: PDP emulation In-Reply-To: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com "Re: PDP emulation" (Mar 6, 9:01) References: <000306090126.25602e34@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <10003062101.ZM6564@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 6, 9:01, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >> I tried swapping my M8186 (11/23) for M8192 (11/73) but it doesn't run. > >> Maybe I need to rebuild the kernel (I've got an original distribution, not > >> one of the images from PUPS), but perhaps it would work with more memory or > >> by swapping RLV11 for RLV12. > > >Cpu doesn't run or doesn't run V7? The image I have only wants some 256k > >of ram out of all teh installed ram. I get the impression it was > >configured for an 11/34 or similar and that is mostly a 11/23 save for the > >11/23 mmu can go to 22 bits. V7 doesn't run. More precisely, it boots and starts the kernel but it immediately panics. I can't remember what the message was; it's a long time since I tried it. > The V6 and V7 images currently available have device drivers that > were built for Unibus systems. They expect a Unibus Map to be present > for accessing memory above 256Kbytes (many of the drivers were built to > always expect a Unibus map). The "safe" thing to do on a Q-bus system > (or an emulated Q-bus system, like Supnik's emulator) is to run with 256Kbytes > or less. It probably isn't memory, then. It's probably down to something (maybe a driver) that checks for something like the presence of a register, finds it on my 11/73, and makes an erroneous assumption. V7 predates the 11/73 by quite a way, so that wouldn't be too surprising. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From donm at cts.com Mon Mar 6 17:51:14 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: HUGE additions this last week! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000306183956.272fe4fa@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Joe wrote: > > > At 01:39 PM 3/6/00 -0500, Bob wrote: > > >>I can't remember the manufacturer name but this board was used with an > >>extender on an S100 system and has all the flip switches and lights to > >>control the micro like an Altair 8800. It came with manuals, etc... > > > >I don't recall this one. If I have time to peruse some old Kilobauds, I > >will research it. > > Is that the extender board made by Bob Mullen? It has his name on the > top RH corner and the model number TB-2. There's a single 7 segment > display on the top LH side. If that's what you have then I have docs for it. > > Joe Jade made a thing called The Bus Probe which contained several rows of LEDs. But not corresponding switches, so that cannot be it. Besides, the way the thing is labled, there would be no confusion as to whose product and what it was for :) - don From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 6 18:26:10 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: Cromemco S-100 system. (Was: HUGE additions this last week!) Message-ID: <20000307002610.89739.qmail@hotmail.com> >Cromemco? (sp) S-100 system with manuals and software - 4 floppy >drives. I >know nothing about this unit other than it's heavy. It sounds like the system you have acquired is a Cromemco System 3. This (if I'm right) was the high-end model of Cromemco's original S-100 systems. It can run either the CP/M or C-DOS OS.This machine, as you've already found out, is quite heavy because the outer casing is 1/8" (!) thick! This thing could withstand a nuclear blast. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vcf at siconic.com Mon Mar 6 18:38:32 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: old, old, old computer (fwd) Message-ID: Here's what sounds like a Wang PC up for grabs. Please reply to the original sender. Reply-to: Wizzalbif@aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:05:14 EST From: Wizzalbif@aol.com To: donate@vintage.org Subject: old, old, old computer I have an old computer at home that was probably made in the early 80's. It was made by Wang, and has 64K memory. I have a CPU, a monitor, and a dot matrix printer. Unfortunately, I am in Birmingham, Alabama with no plans to visit California anytime soon. If you do not want my computer, can you hook me up with anyone around here that might? All information is appreciated. Thanks. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From kbd at ndx.net Mon Mar 6 18:43:34 2000 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: PDP emulation & V7 In-Reply-To: <10003062101.ZM6564@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > V7 doesn't run. More precisely, it boots and starts the kernel but it > immediately panics. I can't remember what the message was; it's a long > time since I tried it. > I've seen this too but I got it going (late) last night. I think it was with the E11 simulator and I set the CPU to "70" (or maybe 45). It boots to the "#" prompt. If you exit it starts timesharing. The root password is "root". Kirk From robinm at rpi.edu Mon Mar 6 19:42:30 2000 From: robinm at rpi.edu (Michael Robinson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/45 Board Issues Message-ID: <1000306204230.ZM35760@vccsw15.rcs.rpi.edu> Hello all, My electronics club recently became the proud owner of a PDP-11/45. Unfortunately, it's not in the best of condition. One of the boards, an M8108 (apparently a memory-managment module) is damaged. Well, actually, it is split in two along the card fingers. After some careful inspection, I have determined that it's probably not possible to repair. Anyone know what will happen if I fire up the machine without this board? We have no peripherals, so we're basically interested in toggling in code and will be satisfied without an OS. If we exclude this card, do we need to toss a NPG card into that spot? Before anyone asks, no, we don't have the printsets. I think this machine is second-second hand, so the previous owner (RPI) didn't have the prints either. Much of what we know of this machine has been determined with a continuity checker... Michael Robinson robinm@rpi.edu RPI Electronics Club From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 6 19:58:56 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: PDP emulation Message-ID: <200003070158.UAA28700@world.std.com> In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) "Re: V7 startup" (Mar 16, 20:44) References: <199803170144.AA16350@world.std.com> Reply-To: pete@dunnington.u-net.com X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Subject: Re: V7 startup Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Status: R Hi, Allison. > >>>>>< @unix <<<<<<< > > THAT'S what I was trying to remember! > > Allison If you're running V7 on real hardware, could you do me a favour once you get it running, please? The normal boot sequence for V7 is to hardware boot the drive, which get the @ prompt, then type 'boot' which runs the 'boot' program, which has a ':' prompt, then specify the drive, partition, and kernel file: @boot boot :rl(0,0)unix Most systems then come up single-user, and you need to type CTRL-Z or CTRL-D to continue multi-user. That might involve also typing in the date/time, and often it's all in uppercase until the right tty driver is running. Lots of systems also do an icheck on the disks before actually starting -- this takes a while. In case you didn't know, to stop it you do # kill -1 1 which kills init and returns to single-user level; then you type # sync a couple of times to flush the disk buffers from memory to disk, and then you can halt it safely. What I want to know is, does that version respond to 'boot' and does it do the disk checks? ------------------------- Ok, it's doesn't boot from the pack so I need a RT-11 to act as primary boot to acess the device at some higher level. My 11/73 does know DL boot though. If I try to boot directly it says non-bootable. Invalid boot block I'd guess. Once I'm at the boot @ (looks just like odt!) either @unix or @boot boot :rl(0,0)unix Also works. I also have the advantage that I have RT-11 for my systems and if that runs it's a good head start as you know the hardware works. from "Michael Robinson" at Mar 6, 0 08:42:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2190 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000307/0afa3525/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Mar 6 20:33:12 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: FW: DEC EQUIPMENT FOR SALE In-Reply-To: <8a104j$neb$1@news.ao.net> References: <8a104j$neb$1@news.ao.net> Message-ID: I guess some people have problems adjusting to the idea that computers have no problems whatsoever with lower case these days. ;-) Found on Usenet. Reply directly to him if interested. -=-=- -=-=- On Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:24:19 -0500, in vmsnet.decus.lugs you wrote: >>From: "Chris Bracken" >>Newsgroups: vmsnet.decus.lugs >>Subject: DEC EQUIPMENT FOR SALE >>Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 13:24:19 -0500 >>Organization: Access Orlando (407) 895-1200 >>Lines: 8 >>Message-ID: <8a104j$neb$1@news.ao.net> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: dyn41.max4.ao.net >>X-Trace: news.ao.net 952370132 24011 208.243.146.107 (6 Mar 2000 19:15:32 GMT) >>X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.ao.net >>NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 Mar 2000 19:15:32 GMT >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 >>Path: news.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!sdd.hp.com!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!europa.netcrusader.net!206.228.179.2!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!news-in-west1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.ao.net!not-for-mail >>Xref: news.jps.net vmsnet.decus.lugs:19 >> >>I HAVE FOR SALE A EXTENSIVE LIST OF DEC MAINFRAME,NETWORKING AND PRINTER >>EQUIPMENT THAT WAS RECENTLY DIENSTALLED FROM A WORKING ENVIROMENT AND IS IN >>VERY GOOD COSMETIC CONDITION. THE EQUIPMENT IS LOCATED IN ORLANDO,FLORIDA IF >>YOU WOULD LIKE TO RECEIVE A EQUIPMENT LIST PLEASE PROVIDE ME WITH YUR FAX #. >>THE COMPANY NAME IS SOUTHEASTERN DATA INC. LOCATED IN ORLANDO, FL. 32804 >>PHONE#-407-522-5075/FAX-407-522-5074----LET ME KNOW, THANKYOU. CHRIS >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From schoedel at kw.igs.net Mon Mar 6 21:05:38 2000 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: PDP-11/45 Board Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: >It is possible to run an 11/45 without the MMU, but in that case you need >a System Address Jumper (M8116 IIRC) that goes in place of one of the 2 >MMU modules, the other MMU slot being empty. Mine has a printed label across the top of the box labelling the slots, which says, on the slot containing the M8107, "If KT11C option [i.e. the MMU] not present, use M8116 S J B in this slot." Michael Robinson wrote: >Before anyone asks, no, we don't have the printsets. I think this machine >is second-second hand, so the previous owner (RPI) didn't have the prints >either. Much of what we know of this machine has been determined with a >continuity checker... I have CPU and MMU prints only (no manuals or FPU prints) which I am very slowly scanning. Among the few fragments I have done so far is the M8108, so it would be easy for me to provide that to you if you think it might help. -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 6 21:20:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:01 2005 Subject: PDP emulation & V7 Message-ID: <200003070320.WAA21409@world.std.com> <> V7 doesn't run. More precisely, it boots and starts the kernel but it <> immediately panics. I can't remember what the message was; it's a long <> time since I tried it. <> < Hi all, Per requests, and to satisfy my own curiosity, I've posted PDF files of the RT-11 system reference manual alongside the tiff images. These contain the images with the text underneath (i.e. you actually view scans of the original manual but it's fully searchable). A little bigger than the straigt tiff images, but it's nice to be able to execute a find... I tried to do an OCR only version of it, which *looked* very nice. The problem was that processing an old manual, on yellowing paper, well, it wasn't too accurate when dealing with punctuation. Which kind of blew any chance of a hands-free OCR, since it was turning colons into t's and so on. After a few hours of hand-correcting through chapter 3, I gave up. Any other suggestions are welcome, thanks to all the good feedback so far... Cheers, Aaron Oh yeah, it's available at www.retrobytes.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 6 23:00:03 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: PDP emulation & V7 In-Reply-To: <200003070320.WAA21409@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 06, 2000 10:20:27 PM Message-ID: <200003070500.VAA15443@shell1.aracnet.com> > Just booted mine on real hardware (11/73 system). > > Allison > Out of curiousity does anyone know if it will run on a PDP-11/44 w/1MB RAM? Since that is actually the system with the RL02's that would be even easier than getting the /23 in an operational state. Zane From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 7 02:40:51 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: PDP emulation & V7 In-Reply-To: "Kirk Davis" "RE: PDP emulation & V7" (Mar 6, 16:43) References: Message-ID: <10003070840.ZM6897@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 6, 16:43, Kirk Davis wrote: > > > V7 doesn't run. More precisely, it boots and starts the kernel but it > > immediately panics. I can't remember what the message was; it's a long > > time since I tried it. > > I've seen this too but I got it going (late) last night. > I think it was with the E11 simulator and I set the > CPU to "70" (or maybe 45). It boots to the "#" prompt. > If you exit it starts timesharing. Thanks, Kirk -- I'll try that. As soon as I can get roud the back of the 11, anyway :-) Meanwhile I'll just keep it running on the 11/23. > The root password is "root". Mine's not one of the images from PUPS, so it's not the same :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 7 07:26:40 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: PDP emulation & V7 In-Reply-To: <200003070500.VAA15443@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: > Out of curiousity does anyone know if it will run on a PDP-11/44 w/1MB RAM? > Since that is actually the system with the RL02's that would be even easier > than getting the /23 in an operational state. I'd bet yes, but the image I have only uses 256k of it. I was looking at it last night and 11/34, 11/23 should run it as well (V7 rl02 image). Allison From robinm at rpi.edu Tue Mar 7 10:33:01 2000 From: robinm at rpi.edu (Michael Robinson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/45 Board Issues In-Reply-To: Kevin Schoedel "Re: PDP-11/45 Board Issues" (Mar 6, 10:05pm) References: Message-ID: <1000307113301.ZM81326@cii3116-06.rcs.rpi.edu> OK, The M8108 is in *really* bad shape. As I said, it's split along the card fingers, which means that just about every line going to the bus is broken. It also has a few chips that have been shattered, both along the break and elsewhere on the board. I, for one, don't have the skill to fix it. > >It is possible to run an 11/45 without the MMU, but in that case you need > >a System Address Jumper (M8116 IIRC) that goes in place of one of the 2 > >MMU modules, the other MMU slot being empty. > > Mine has a printed label across the top of the box labelling the slots, > which says, on the slot containing the M8107, "If KT11C option [i.e. the > MMU] not present, use M8116 S J B in this slot." Is the M8116 a simple jumper (a la grant continuity card)? I think that's probably the best move to kludge one of those together, if it's simple enough. Memory management is not all that important to me. > I have CPU and MMU prints only (no manuals or FPU prints) which I am very > slowly scanning. Among the few fragments I have done so far is the M8108, > so it would be easy for me to provide that to you if you think it might > help. Kevin, I'd be interested to see the M8108 fragments. If you have it, I'd also be interested (probably moreso) in the M8116. Thanks, Michael From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Mar 6 11:37:38 2000 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: Need RS6K help Message-ID: <8025689A.0060B485.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Bill Pechter, quoting Peter Pachla: >> Hi, I've just gotten hold of an RS/6000 which appears to be a model 520 >> (7013?). >> >> Since the thing appears to be a server (POWERserver?), and thus has no >> display adapter, I need to get hold of at least one of the 10-pin to 25-pin >> serial port converter cables. >> >> Can anyone, preferably in the UK, help please? >> >> Also, does anyone know where I can track down a set of AIX 3.1.0 manuals - >> printed or electronic form? > Are you sure there's no video cable. The 7013's (5x0 models -- > 520/530/550/580/590) often had a video card for IBM fixed frequency > monitors--at least the one's I had did.) > > The serial ports weren't 10 pin on anythin IBM had that I saw. > They used 9 and 25 pin ports. I will say at the start that I have no experience with the 5XX (7013) - all this is based on the 320 and 375 machines (7012) we have at work. The serial ports on the 320s (can't remember about the 375) are indeed 10 pin. Physically it is the same as on the IBM 6150 but I haven't got around to testing the adaptor on my 6150 yet. If you want to try the expensive route, the part number printed on the adaptor I just pulled out of the draw is 00G0943, and you can try IBM. If you want a cheaper route, with luck we will be decommissioning and selling off the RS/6000 stuff within the next few months (only one piece of software left to be ported and that is almost finished) and I'll see what I can obtain for you. Video IIRC is a DA shell with three miniature coaxen in it, so I imagine Peter would have spotted it if it was there! The monitor is the IBM 6019. (My plan is: build one working 320 out of the two dead ones, and sell: a working 375, with monitor; a working 320, with monitor; a dead 320; a spare monitor. I have no idea how much the dead 320 will cost to repair, but if IBM are involved it is likely to be prohibitive, so perhaps I might get you the video card from the 320) BTW in case you wondered the keyboard is _not_ PS/2 compatible, but the mouse is and all the windows drivers think it's a Logitech (it's on my PC at the moment). HTH Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Mar 7 11:42:20 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update In-Reply-To: References: <200003061910.LAA28609@siconic.com> Message-ID: <200003071643.RAA16056@mail2.siemens.de> > > VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany > What is it likely to cost to get in? DM 10 per day and person DM 15 for both days And 2 days for one if you preregister :) > Does anyone know of any cheap campsites near Munich? I'll check that and post the result on the Pages. Servus Hans -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Mar 7 11:49:00 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update In-Reply-To: <200003061910.LAA28609@siconic.com> Message-ID: <200003071650.RAA17846@mail2.siemens.de> > The planning for VCF 1.0e is going well. Hans is working his big > German butt off in preparation for the event. You bet, I need a lot of good american coke to refill the calories. > The pages in Deutsch, English, Francais and Dutch (what is that called > in the Netherlands? :) are available, although the only complete page > is the one in Deutsch. The other pages are not completely translated > but have enough of the pertinent information to help you get there. If > you can help Hans translate some of these pages then we'd both be very > appreciative. The more languagesthe more visitors (I hope :) > Dates: April 29 (10a - 6:30p) & April 30 (10:15a - 5:00p) > Where: Mehrzweckhalle des ESV München Ost > Baumkirchner Straße 57 > 81541 Munich > (I don't know what this all means but it's supposed to help you find > the place :) Just: Multi purpose hall of the ESV Muenchen Ost (a club) Baumkirchner Street number 57 Munich - ZIP:81541 :)) > If you would like to witness my attempt to deliver a 45 minute talk in > German then you will not want to miss this event! ;) Sallam, now it's up to you - I didn't tell anybody about your promise - now you have to deliver ! :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 7 12:23:31 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/45 Board Issues In-Reply-To: from "Kevin Schoedel" at Mar 6, 0 10:05:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 997 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000307/3af8d1f8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 7 12:29:12 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/45 Board Issues In-Reply-To: <1000307113301.ZM81326@cii3116-06.rcs.rpi.edu> from "Michael Robinson" at Mar 7, 0 11:33:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1503 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000307/700cc229/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Mar 7 14:43:06 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update In-Reply-To: References: <200003061910.LAA28609@siconic.com> Message-ID: <200003071944.UAA23168@mail2.siemens.de> > > VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany > What is it likely to cost to get in? BTW: I you're an exhibitor, entrance is completely and absolut _FREE_ isn't that great ? > Does anyone know of any cheap campsites near Munich? Information about camp grounds and youth hostels has been added. Sallam will put them up ASAP. Check at http://www.vintage.org/vcfe/E/Unterkunft.html http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe/E/Unterkunft.html Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 7 14:37:50 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: Otrona Attache available Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000307143350.019d9b40@pc> Tom Jennings has an Otrona Attache, "not 8:16, plain CP/M, in great shape with one small exception, with manuals and lots of software." He's got it on eBay now but there's no action so far, so if it doesn't find a bidder he'll release it for shipping and handling from Tucson, AZ. Contact him at . - John From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Tue Mar 7 19:17:56 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: AMD 1820-1701 Message-ID: <38C5AA44.3887A933@roanoke.infi.net> Newbie question----got a bunch of boards from HP terminals [2640 and 2645A's] that I thought had either 8008 or 8080A chips----boards are marked "processor" and the socketed processor chip is brown or white ceramic with a gold "lid"---only markings are 1820-1701 on one line and I assume a serial # on the next [7629P, 7707P, 78126GP, etc]--also has what looks to be the AMD logo---up to the right slanting "arrow" shape. Some of the identical looking boards do have 8008 or 8080A installed---What do I have here?? Thanks, Craig From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 7 19:05:43 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: AMD 1820-1701 In-Reply-To: <38C5AA44.3887A933@roanoke.infi.net> (message from Craig Smith on Tue, 07 Mar 2000 20:17:56 -0500) References: <38C5AA44.3887A933@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: <20000308010543.31451.qmail@brouhaha.com> Craig Smith wrote: > Some of the identical looking boards do have 8008 or 8080A > installed---What do I have here?? Which? 8008 and 8080A chips don't really look similar. Anyhow, it sounds like a house-marked AMD 9080. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Mar 7 19:57:53 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: AMD 1820-1701 Message-ID: <000e01bf88a1$b84e13a0$0400c0a8@winbook> I can't tell you much about this but I've had countless HP boards with part numbers of 1820-something. I went to the trouble of getting a cross-reference for IBM part numbers when I was working on their stuff, (their numbers were 237-xxxx) but I've never had enough HP stuff to warrant the effort. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Craig Smith To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 6:39 PM Subject: AMD 1820-1701 >Newbie question----got a bunch of boards from HP terminals [2640 and >2645A's] >that I thought had either 8008 or 8080A chips----boards are marked >"processor" and the socketed processor chip is brown or white ceramic >with a gold "lid"---only markings are 1820-1701 on one line and I assume >a serial # on the next [7629P, 7707P, 78126GP, etc]--also has what looks >to be the AMD logo---up to the right slanting "arrow" shape. > Some of the identical looking boards do have 8008 or 8080A >installed---What do I have here?? > Thanks, Craig From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Tue Mar 7 20:47:06 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: AMD 1820-1701 References: <38C5AA44.3887A933@roanoke.infi.net> <20000308010543.31451.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <38C5BF2A.12806AC1@roanoke.infi.net> Duh!---Sorry, you're correct. These are 40 pin 2" X 3/4" ceramic bodied chips with the gold lid and legs. Thanks, Craig Eric Smith wrote: > > Craig Smith wrote: > > Some of the identical looking boards do have 8008 or 8080A > > installed---What do I have here?? > > Which? 8008 and 8080A chips don't really look similar. > > Anyhow, it sounds like a house-marked AMD 9080. From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Mar 7 20:52:09 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update In-Reply-To: <200003071643.RAA16056@mail2.siemens.de> References: <200003061910.LAA28609@siconic.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000307212402.0141a100@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 05:43 PM 3/7/00 +0001, Hans Franke said something like: > >> > VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany > > >> What is it likely to cost to get in? > >DM 10 per day and person >DM 15 for both days >And 2 days for one if you preregister :) FYI who's interested: one of the several good currency converters is at this URL: http://www.oanda.com/converter/classic At this time DM1.00 is equivalent to approximately US$0.490 and 0.311 British Pound. VCF Europa: A good deal at any price! :-) > >> Does anyone know of any cheap campsites near Munich? > >I'll check that and post the result on the Pages. Also show the nearest towns to the campsites. Then a map URL would be excellent to refer to such as http://maps.excite.com/ and other better ones. Tell the visitors to make extra time available for a trip down towards Berchtesgaden or Garmisch-Partenkirchen or at least to Chiemsee after VCF Europa. If they've never before been to Bavaria this will make them have even better memories of the trip in addition to attending the Fest and seeing beautiful M?nchen! :-) Innsbruck, Austria is three or four hours drive south of M?nchen too. Salzburg is really interesting too. Dammit Hans, this is making me "homesick" to visit Bayern once again even though it's never been home. Good luck and have fun Hans! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Mar 7 21:04:58 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update In-Reply-To: <200003071650.RAA17846@mail2.siemens.de> References: <200003061910.LAA28609@siconic.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000307215337.014209a0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 05:50 PM 3/7/00 +0001, Hans Franke said something like: >> The planning for VCF 1.0e is going well. Hans is working his big >> German butt off in preparation for the event. > >You bet, I need a lot of good american coke to refill the calories. > >> The pages in Deutsch, English, Francais and Dutch (what is that called >> in the Netherlands? :) are available, although the only complete page >> is the one in Deutsch. The other pages are not completely translated >> but have enough of the pertinent information to help you get there. If >> you can help Hans translate some of these pages then we'd both be very >> appreciative. > >The more languagesthe more visitors (I hope :) > >> Dates: April 29 (10a - 6:30p) & April 30 (10:15a - 5:00p) >> Where: Mehrzweckhalle des ESV M?nchen Ost >> Baumkirchner Stra?e 57 >> 81541 Munich >> (I don't know what this all means but it's supposed to help you find >> the place :) > >Just: >Multi purpose hall of the ESV Muenchen Ost (a club) >Baumkirchner Street number 57 >Munich - ZIP:81541 > >:)) > >> If you would like to witness my attempt to deliver a 45 minute talk in >> German then you will not want to miss this event! ;) > >Sallam, now it's up to you - I didn't tell anybody about >your promise - now you have to deliver ! Servus Hans, I warned Sellam about this but he said he's willing to go ahead with it! ;-) The cat's out of the bag now! I know well what it's like to try to learn German and after about eight years of periodic, unofficial, random self-teaching I can just about speak short simple sentences. If German was still taught in the schools around here I would have attempted to get tutoring would be much better I think. If he does in fact come to understand spoken High German he'll get confused hearing the Bavarian tongue though. I know! ;-) Heh heh heh . . . Bis sp?ter, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 7 21:10:36 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: AMD 1820-1701 Message-ID: <200003080310.WAA03436@world.std.com> Message-ID: Christian, It hasn't helped me. I took 5 years of college German and speak less than the average German 2 year old. Honestly, it's humiliating, because I'm still in the habit of telling people that I know some German...only to stumble on the most basic words and sentence structure. I think it would come back pretty quick, but I don't have the time (or energy) to study it on my own, and very little opportunity to use it in a practical setting (despite Hans' brave attempt to try to understand my gibberish). I still have a large bookshelf full of German classics; someday, someday. Aaron > Servus Hans, > > I warned Sellam about this but he said he's willing to go ahead with it! > ;-) The cat's out of the bag now! I know well what it's like to try to > learn German and after about eight years of periodic, unofficial, random > self-teaching I can just about speak short simple sentences. If German was > still taught in the schools around here I would have attempted to get > tutoring would be much better I think. If he does in fact come to > understand spoken High German he'll get confused hearing the Bavarian > tongue though. I know! ;-) Heh heh heh . . . > > Bis später, Chris > -- -- > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian > Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ > From robinm at rpi.edu Tue Mar 7 22:03:42 2000 From: robinm at rpi.edu (Michael Robinson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/45 Board Issues In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: PDP-11/45 Board Issues" (Mar 7, 6:29pm) References: Message-ID: <1000307230342.ZM202138@vcmr-19.rcs.rpi.edu> OK, I think I've pretty much decided that it's best to give a shot at rebuilding the M8108. For one thing, it's going to be a lot cheaper. To this end, could someone email me the prints for this board (or otherwise direct me to a URL where they can be found)? > > > Mine has a printed label across the top of the box labelling the slots, > > > which says, on the slot containing the M8107, "If KT11C option [i.e. the > > > MMU] not present, use M8116 S J B in this slot." > > > > Is the M8116 a simple jumper (a la grant continuity card)? I think that's > > probably the best move to kludge one of those together, if it's simple > > enough. > > No, it's a hex height card with address buffer chips on it. The schematic > is not that complex, but the board is not just connections. OK, unless it's really simple, I guess that's out. > > Memory management is not all that important to me. > > It will be if you get any peripherals and want to run an OS. Granted, but I think that's a long way off.. :-( Thanks, Michael From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue Mar 7 21:09:25 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/45 Board Issues Message-ID: <00c701bf88ab$b5f3c460$7a2ed1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Michael Robinson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 11:07 PM Subject: Re: PDP-11/45 Board Issues >OK, I think I've pretty much decided that it's best to give a shot at >rebuilding the M8108. For one thing, it's going to be a lot cheaper. To >this end, could someone email me the prints for this board (or otherwise >direct me to a URL where they can be found)? I haven't been following this list lately but.... I just set aside a set of 11/45 boards for Kevin McQuiggin here... if you can wait a couple of days, there is a strong chance I can come up with a set (or at least replace the bad boards) for you. Please contact me off the list. I have a PDP-11/45 with FPU running (just got the fast memory!).. nice mini to play on. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From schoedel at kw.igs.net Tue Mar 7 22:24:59 2000 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/45 Board Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: >Yes, that's correct. I must admit that when I posted the last message >last night, I was somewhat tired and didn't feel like either pulling the >CPU out of the rack or getting the printset. >So I couldn't remember where the M8116 actually goes... Mine is easy to get at... I don't have nearly enough computers :-( >>From this, I think it's fair to assume that the M8107 is the address path >(relocation adders, etc) and the M8108 is the control logic. It might be >possible to kludge up a replacement for the M8108 that effectively >disables the MMU and turns the M8107 into just a SJB board, but it's not >going to be trivial. Possibly... (bearing in mind that I don't know what I'm doing). There is a single bit in the status register SR0 (which is on the M8108) that enables memory management. Once I send Michael the M8108 print, it might be practical for him to completely trace its consequences. In particular there is a mux on the M8107 to select the physical address from either the MMU-modified address or the raw address based on this bit. (Michael, this is the four 74157s beside the B finger.) Another uses this bit to select the two high address bits, but as I don't have a signal index it's not immediately obvious to me from where. And of course other parts of the M8107 may need to be driven appropriately so as not to cause faults or other problems. -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Mar 7 23:48:29 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: AMD 1820-1701 In-Reply-To: Craig Smith's message of "Tue, 07 Mar 2000 20:17:56 -0500" References: <38C5AA44.3887A933@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: <200003080548.VAA05415@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Craig Smith wrote: > Newbie question----got a bunch of boards from HP terminals [2640 and > 2645A's] > that I thought had either 8008 or 8080A chips----boards are marked > "processor" and the socketed processor chip is brown or white ceramic 2640 (and maybe 2644, I can't remember) terminals have 8008s, 2641/2645/2648 terminals have 8080s (on different processor boards of course). An 8080 would likely be in a 40-pin DIP (Dual In-line Package, meaning two rows of pins). An 8008 would be in a smaller DIP but I can't remember how small off the top of my head. > with a gold "lid"---only markings are 1820-1701 on one line and I assume > a serial # on the next [7629P, 7707P, 78126GP, etc]--also has what looks 18xx-xxxx is an HP component part number (if you buy enough chips, you can get the manufacturer to stamp them with your part number too), and the 7xxx is probably a date code (two digits of year and two digits of week-within-year). > to be the AMD logo---up to the right slanting "arrow" shape. > Some of the identical looking boards do have 8008 or 8080A > installed---What do I have here?? Some boards made with HP house-marked AMD parts, some boards made with Intel parts? -Frank McConnell From edick at idcomm.com Wed Mar 8 00:01:28 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update Message-ID: <000401bf88c3$beea7560$0400c0a8@winbook> Don't feel bad about your inability to speak German after only a few years' formal education. Nowadays, American students aren't even taught enough about their own language, a version of English, that they can read a few paragraphs and understand what it was about, nor can they write more than a paragraph about a single subject, before the "stream of consciousnes" takes over and all purpose is lost. I have two boys in their first few years of "higher" education and, having met some of the people now entrusted with passing along an "education" to them and others, I find them sadly lacking. They speak badly, read little and fail miserably to express themselves succinctly and coherently in writing. Current generation textbooks are showing the decline of the spoken language here. Sadly, the average German 15-year old not only speaks better German than our average 35-year-old speaks english, but he speaks better English than that same 35-year-old. Fifteen years ago, the average American had sufficient command of English that he routinely used on the order of a hundred words to express himself. Today's average is closer to 35 words. No wonder nobody knows what's being said! If you're making an honest effort in Europe, people will put up with your deificiencies. If you expect them to speak your language, you're in for a hard time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 9:00 PM Subject: Re: VCF Europa Update Christian, It hasn't helped me. I took 5 years of college German and speak less than the average German 2 year old. Honestly, it's humiliating, because I'm still in the habit of telling people that I know some German...only to stumble on the most basic words and sentence structure. I think it would come back pretty quick, but I don't have the time (or energy) to study it on my own, and very little opportunity to use it in a practical setting (despite Hans' brave attempt to try to understand my gibberish). I still have a large bookshelf full of German classics; someday, someday. Aaron > Servus Hans, > > I warned Sellam about this but he said he's willing to go ahead with it! > ;-) The cat's out of the bag now! I know well what it's like to try to > learn German and after about eight years of periodic, unofficial, random > self-teaching I can just about speak short simple sentences. If German was > still taught in the schools around here I would have attempted to get > tutoring would be much better I think. If he does in fact come to > understand spoken High German he'll get confused hearing the Bavarian > tongue though. I know! ;-) Heh heh heh . . . > > Bis sp?ter, Chris > -- -- > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian > Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Mar 8 00:21:00 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: AMD 1820-1701 In-Reply-To: Re: AMD 1820-1701 (Frank McConnell) References: <38C5AA44.3887A933@roanoke.infi.net> <200003080548.VAA05415@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <14533.61772.250954.771913@phaduka.neurotica.com> On March 7, Frank McConnell wrote: > 2640 (and maybe 2644, I can't remember) terminals have 8008s, > 2641/2645/2648 terminals have 8080s (on different processor boards of > course). An 8080 would likely be in a 40-pin DIP (Dual In-line > Package, meaning two rows of pins). An 8008 would be in a smaller > DIP but I can't remember how small off the top of my head. It's an 18-pinner if I recall correctly. -Dave McGuire From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Mar 8 03:40:18 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: RRD40 caddy? In-Reply-To: <38C5AA44.3887A933@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: I have a RRD40, but apparently no caddy. What do they look like (url with a pic anybody?)? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Mar 8 06:17:05 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200003081118.MAA18659@mail2.siemens.de> > It hasn't helped me. I took 5 years of college German and speak less than > the average German 2 year old. Honestly, it's humiliating, because I'm > still in the habit of telling people that I know some German...only to > stumble on the most basic words and sentence structure. I think it would > come back pretty quick, but I don't have the time (or energy) to study it > on my own, and very little opportunity to use it in a practical setting > (despite Hans' brave attempt to try to understand my gibberish). That's part of the deal - if you pretend to understand my English, I'll do the same about your German... :)) No, serious, German isn't that hard to learn, millions of kids over here are proof that it's easy enough to be done even at toddlers age :)) Well, Now realy serious: All you missing is some practice so come over for VCFe and help Sallam in his speech. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Mar 8 06:17:06 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000307212402.0141a100@206.231.8.2> References: <200003071643.RAA16056@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <200003081118.MAA18650@mail2.siemens.de> > >> > VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany > >> What is it likely to cost to get in? > >DM 10 per day and person > >DM 15 for both days > >And 2 days for one if you preregister :) > http://www.oanda.com/converter/classic > At this time DM1.00 is equivalent to approximately US$0.490 and 0.311 > British Pound. At the moment (S*** F****** Euro) it's like 1:2 on the Dollar and 1:3 on the Pound (plus a small bonus). Compared to a year ago, it's like a 20% off on all stuff over here. > >> Does anyone know of any cheap campsites near Munich? > >I'll check that and post the result on the Pages. > Also show the nearest towns to the campsites. Then a map URL would be > excellent to refer to such as http://maps.excite.com/ and other better ones. Forgett Excite - they put the center of Munich in the middle of nowhere - Well, maybe not, there Mark is quite close to a building at a US site, which is known to house some CIA departments - so maybe that's their source - this would also explane that there are lots of spelling errors in street names, wrong names and even streets drawn at wrong locations. http://maps.excite.com/zoom/?lat=481371&lon=115757&label=VCFe%2C+Munich%2C+BAVARIA&orig_lat=481328&orig_lon=116318&level=6 is the closest you may get on there for VCFe location. The Map is centered on the real city centre, the Mark is on the VCFe site. It looks like as if their coordinates are somewhat out of orgin. I did gather the VCFe location per GPS (7 satelites used), and when using them (48o 7' 51" N, 11o 36' 56" E), Excite shows a map location about 150 meters (500 ft) of the real location. I did check the GPS measurement with two different recivers (a Garmin GPS 38, and the navigation system of my car). > Tell the visitors to make extra time available for a trip down towards > Berchtesgaden or Garmisch-Partenkirchen or at least to Chiemsee after VCF > Europa. If they've never before been to Bavaria this will make them have > even better memories of the trip in addition to attending the Fest and > seeing beautiful München! :-) Innsbruck, Austria is three or four hours > drive south of München too. Salzburg is really interesting too. You're right - just, where to start - you are in fafour of the Oberland - but there's more in Bavaria (not to speak about the occupied terretories - free Bavaria!). > Dammit Hans, this is making me "homesick" to visit Bayern once again even > though it's never been home. That's the back side of beeing forced to work for the money ... The job takes away valuable time you could otherwise use for coming to VCFe - Just tell you boss you prefer VCFe over slavery :)) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 8 07:19:34 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: AMD 1820-1701 In-Reply-To: <200003080548.VAA05415@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: > 2641/2645/2648 terminals have 8080s (on different processor boards of > course). An 8080 would likely be in a 40-pin DIP (Dual In-line > Package, meaning two rows of pins). An 8008 would be in a smaller > DIP but I can't remember how small off the top of my head. 8008 is a 18 pin dip. Allison From macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl Wed Mar 8 07:04:24 2000 From: macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl (Maciej S Szymanski) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: RRD40 caddy? References: Message-ID: <38C64FD8.B1368866@pzl-okecie.com.pl> It's quite wired. It has two parts - the translucent box and CD holder. You put it into the unit and holder remains inside while you takes the box out. To remove CD you have to put box again into RRD40 and holder with CD click back with the box, and you can remove all (it's CD+holder+box). If you want I can send you a photo of caddy from my RRD40. Maciek Mike Ford wrote: > > I have a RRD40, but apparently no caddy. What do they look like (url with a > pic anybody?)? From KB9VU at aol.com Wed Mar 8 08:23:11 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: Heathkit/Zenith H-110 (Z-100) Message-ID: <88.15b0d5d.25f7bc4f@aol.com> I have an operational H/Z-110 low profile computer with the Zenith Color monitor. Unit has dual hard drives and a floppy installed internally. MB is the last revision produced and has 768K loaded. The optional Gemini card to run PCDOS (IBM) native programs is also installed. Outboard Zenith 8" floppy drive in the factory enclosure. Original User Manuals, Technical Manuals and Service Manual set with all service bulletins included. ZDOS, MSDOS version 2, CP/M-80, CP/M-86 operating systems. Several applications software items including Wordstar, Multiplan, Condor, and others (15 original 3 ring binder documentation sets) and other user software totalling over 200 5.25" disks. $150 for the whole lot. Pick up in the St. Louis area. I need to get this system out of the way and into a new home for someone to use. Help! Thanks Mike Stover, Florissant, MO From edick at idcomm.com Wed Mar 8 09:08:49 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update Message-ID: <001701bf8910$35d692c0$0400c0a8@winbook> You're quite right, Hans, people try to "get by" whenever they can. English as used in the U.S. is a special case, however. For the convenience of the ever-lower-educated personalities in the media, the functional vocabulary the part people routinely use ) has shrunk from about 100 words to somewhere near 35. That leads to contextual definition of those words, which, in turn, gives rise to comments such as "... it depends on what your definition of 'is' is ... " as used by our slippery chief executive. People still have all the same things to say. They just use fewer words with which to say them. This leads to a really poor communication process, and it's VERY pervasive, i.e. it shows up in all phases of life. Of course, it's wonderful for lawyers, since they get to collect money for arguing out what we meant when we entered into an agreement. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 4:47 AM Subject: Re: VCF Europa Update >> It hasn't helped me. I took 5 years of college German and speak less than >> the average German 2 year old. Honestly, it's humiliating, because I'm >> still in the habit of telling people that I know some German...only to >> stumble on the most basic words and sentence structure. I think it would >> come back pretty quick, but I don't have the time (or energy) to study it >> on my own, and very little opportunity to use it in a practical setting >> (despite Hans' brave attempt to try to understand my gibberish). > >That's part of the deal - if you pretend to understand >my English, I'll do the same about your German... :)) > >No, serious, German isn't that hard to learn, millions >of kids over here are proof that it's easy enough to >be done even at toddlers age :)) > >Well, Now realy serious: All you missing is some practice >so come over for VCFe and help Sallam in his speech. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen >http://www.vintage.org/vcfe >http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Mar 8 12:18:52 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update In-Reply-To: <200003081118.MAA18659@mail2.siemens.de>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 12:18:05PM +0000 References: <200003081118.MAA18659@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <20000308131852.A22683@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 12:18:05PM +0000, Hans Franke wrote: > No, serious, German isn't that hard to learn, millions > of kids over here are proof that it's easy enough to > be done even at toddlers age :)) Toddlers can learn *anything*, it doesn't help the rest of us!!! When I tried (very unsuccessfully) to learn German it was just dizzying... All those word endings which the teachers said were nice because it meant you could understand what a word meant independently of the word order, but don't get the idea that that means you can be sloppy with the word order because German is super strict about that too! All that stuff with time/manner/place, and moving infinitives to the end of the sentence, and the fact that some prepositions take accusative case and some take dative (???) just based on a memorized list (aus, ausser, bei, ...), it's just so much work! And every detail seems to be different from English. You have to be thinking furiously just to cough up semi-correct childlike sentences in real time. And of course your slang is just as confusing as ours must be... Kids have it easy since their brains are a lot more receptive to just picking up patterns w/o basing them on rules. So when they learn a language, they just get a feel for what "sounds right" and that's it, the rules of grammar can come as a total shock to them years later but they were obeying most of them all along anyway. Kind of like Morse code -- you can get up to around 5-7 WPM by just using a lookup table in your head and concentrating really hard, but by the time you get to 20 WPM you'd better "just know" which letter is which. Well unless you're a genius or something... John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 8 12:45:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/45 Board Issues In-Reply-To: <1000307230342.ZM202138@vcmr-19.rcs.rpi.edu> from "Michael Robinson" at Mar 7, 0 11:03:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 961 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000308/e2a8ab15/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 8 12:39:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: PDP-11/45 Board Issues In-Reply-To: <00c701bf88ab$b5f3c460$7a2ed1d8@default> from "John B" at Mar 7, 0 10:09:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1194 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000308/e371c4db/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 8 12:31:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: AMD 1820-1701 In-Reply-To: <38C5AA44.3887A933@roanoke.infi.net> from "Craig Smith" at Mar 7, 0 08:17:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1628 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000308/300c7f3a/attachment.ksh From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Mar 8 13:14:48 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update In-Reply-To: <20000308131852.A22683@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: Well, like when I asked a friend of mine to help me with my German (20-year native speaker)...every specific question was met with, "I don't *know* vy, ve just say it zat vay..." On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, John Wilson wrote: > Kids have it easy since their brains are a lot more receptive to just picking > up patterns w/o basing them on rules. So when they learn a language, they > just get a feel for what "sounds right" and that's it, the rules of grammar > can come as a total shock to them years later but they were obeying most > of them all along anyway. From elvey at hal.com Wed Mar 8 14:26:24 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: EC-1 owners In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200003082026.MAA17871@civic.hal.com> Hi I'm looking for EC-1 HeathKit analog computer owners. I'm looking to make a group purchase of a bunch of double miniature banana plugs. These are the ones that will fit into the crystal jacks between the bigger banana jacks. These will allow one to put their resistors, diodes and capacitors on perminent mounts so the wires are not easily broken when re-programming. This is the way the pros do it. These are not cheap I've seen them in the Allied catalog at $4.20 each. I'm hoping I can get a better price with a group purchase. One would typically want to have about 25 of these to have the normal combinations of resistors and capacitors needed for most general simulation and examples from the manual. Anyway, please let me know in the next few days if you are interested so we can make a good deal. Dwight From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Mar 8 14:35:54 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update In-Reply-To: References: <20000308131852.A22683@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >Well, like when I asked a friend of mine to help me with my German >(20-year native speaker)...every specific question was met with, "I don't >*know* vy, ve just say it zat vay..." If you really want to get up to speed on speaking, visit one of the German American friendship clubs that are in many cities. Watching cartoons in German can help as well. Here in SoCal there is a huge german population, with many social clubs etc. like Alpine Village (near 110/405). From marvin at rain.org Wed Mar 8 17:19:16 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: EC-1 owners References: <200003082026.MAA17871@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <38C6DFF4.C06F51C0@rain.org> Dwight Elvey wrote: > > Hi > I'm looking for EC-1 HeathKit analog computer > owners. I'm looking to make a group purchase of > a bunch of double miniature banana plugs. Just a thought, have you checked the surplus market? In the past, I have seen these for sale at about $1.00 ea. or less at places like the TRW swap meet and some of the surplus houses. From elvey at hal.com Wed Mar 8 18:32:20 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: EC-1 owners In-Reply-To: <38C6DFF4.C06F51C0@rain.org> Message-ID: <200003090032.QAA20960@civic.hal.com> Marvin wrote: > > Dwight Elvey wrote: > > > > Hi > > I'm looking for EC-1 HeathKit analog computer > > owners. I'm looking to make a group purchase of > > a bunch of double miniature banana plugs. > > Just a thought, have you checked the surplus market? In the past, I have > seen these for sale at about $1.00 ea. or less at places like the TRW swap > meet and some of the surplus houses. Hi I think you are talking about the 3/4 inch spaced standard banana plugs. The EC-1 needs the smaller 1/2 inch spaced ones. I don't think I'd ever seen these at any of the local surplus in the south bay area. Still, the quantity needed per machine is about 25 or so. I would be glad if anyone finds the Pomona type 2244- doubles at a surplus store that they let me know where they are. Dwight From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Mar 8 18:42:50 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update References: <200003081118.MAA18659@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <001e01bf8960$66261220$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans Franke" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 9:48 PM Subject: Re: VCF Europa Update > No, serious, German isn't that hard to learn, millions > of kids over here are proof that it's easy enough to > be done even at toddlers age :)) Sadly, it's easier for a toddler to learn (any language) than it is for an adult. My brother also studied German at University here, and probably speaks it as well as any non native. (Hard to tell, hardly anyone here speaks anything but english. I have picked up a few words here and there just through reading and foreign language films, but that's it) AFAIK, there is only 1 native German in the whole town. I have no idea how the grammar works. My brother mentioned something about gender and case, which don't exist in English in any form that is comparable. (Only gender I can think of apart from living males/females is that a ship or an aircraft is "she") Case??? The point is that no adult ever learns a foreign language as easily or as well as a young child. The inability of adult native Japanese speakers to pronounce certain English phonemes is due to the fact that they do not have the ability to pronounce them. It has to be learnt (IIRC) before age 5 or 6. The RR as in 'sorry' for instance. (It tends to come out more like a LL.) They aren't brain damaged, they just can't form the sound, they didn't learn how. > Well, Now really serious: All you are missing is some practice. > so come over for VCFe and help Sallam with his speech. I hope it all goes well. I wish I could join you, but my car doesn't swim very well. (I envy people who can visit another country just by driving there.) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Mar 8 18:51:49 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update References: <200003081118.MAA18659@mail2.siemens.de> <20000308131852.A22683@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <004c01bf8961$ca81cb00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Wilson" To: Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2000 4:48 AM Subject: Re: VCF Europa Update > Kind of like Morse code -- you can get up to around 5-7 WPM by just using > a lookup table in your head and concentrating really hard, but by the > time you get to 20 WPM you'd better "just know" which letter is which. > Well unless you're a genius or something... An Ex Naval instructor in Morse once told me that it was much better to learn morse *as a language* than as a coded form of english. Interestingly, although he was a full call ham, he was a vigourous opponent of morse being compulsory at speeds > 5wpm, as he said, based on his experience, that some people simply CANNOT learn it much beyond that level, no matter how hard they try. I can believe that, I tried for YEARS to get up to 10wpm for my Full license, but can't seem to quite get there. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From mbg at world.std.com Wed Mar 8 20:54:17 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update References: <200003081118.MAA18659@mail2.siemens.de> <20000308131852.A22683@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <200003090254.VAA19796@world.std.com> >An Ex Naval instructor in Morse once told me that it was much better to >learn morse *as a language* than as a coded form of english. >Interestingly, although he was a full call ham, he was a vigourous >opponent of morse being compulsory at speeds > 5wpm, as he said, based on >his experience, that some people simply CANNOT learn it much beyond that >level, no matter how hard they try. I can believe that, I tried for YEARS >to get up to 10wpm for my Full license, but can't seem to quite get >there. years ago, I wanted to go for my ham license, and worked diligently on the code... I got real good at sending... as much as about 25wpm at the time... it just came naturally, I could almost see the letters as I was keying them. *BUT* when it came to receiving, I couldn't even make 5wpm... I just never got that 'lookup table' working in reverse, so have never been able to go for a license... Maybe with the changes they've made recently, I'll be able to get my foot in the door... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Wed Mar 8 21:21:00 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: AMD 1820-1701 References: <200003080310.WAA03436@world.std.com> Message-ID: <38C7189C.B5DA6FF5@roanoke.infi.net> Thanks to all for the answer to my question---correct on all counts. I found one dual stamped [INTEL 8080A & 1820-1701]. "House numbered" parts always seemed like odd thing to do--duplicated a lot of effort---did they think they were hiding propriatiary information by obscuring the actual #'s on chips, transistors, etc? Thanks again, Craig Allison J Parent wrote: > > <2645A's] > > The same thing with a HP "house number". The older cpus were often > ceramic/gold until later and better plastics or cheaper grey or brown > ceramic started to appear. > > Allison From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Mar 8 21:20:26 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update In-Reply-To: <200003081118.MAA18659@mail2.siemens.de> References: Message-ID: <4.1.20000308220936.01415220@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:18 PM 3/8/00 +0001, Hans Franke said something like: >> It hasn't helped me. I took 5 years of college German and speak less than >> the average German 2 year old. Honestly, it's humiliating, because I'm >> still in the habit of telling people that I know some German...only to >> stumble on the most basic words and sentence structure. I think it would >> come back pretty quick, but I don't have the time (or energy) to study it >> on my own, and very little opportunity to use it in a practical setting >> (despite Hans' brave attempt to try to understand my gibberish). > >That's part of the deal - if you pretend to understand >my English, I'll do the same about your German... :)) > >No, serious, German isn't that hard to learn, millions >of kids over here are proof that it's easy enough to >be done even at toddlers age :)) > >Well, Now realy serious: All you missing is some practice >so come over for VCFe and help Sallam in his speech. Yes, yes! Practice by being there! I improved myself so very much each time I visited by being _within_ the language than just by reading, writing, listening to some tapes, etc. You others who have traveled to lands which speak a language you've learned would probably agree. I picked up a lot of the Bavarian language (which is not really formally taught I understand nor are there more than the one book I found on it) by being over there. Don't ask me to write some of the words I recall as I haven't ever seen them in _print_! That previous message mentioning how English skills by young Americans are terrible is somewhat embarassing to me I think. But it's true dang it. If Bev and I can get my 7-yr-old stepson to be better than what seems to be the average around here, I'll be very happy. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Mar 8 21:55:16 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update In-Reply-To: <004c01bf8961$ca81cb00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>; from geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au on Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 11:21:49AM +1030 References: <200003081118.MAA18659@mail2.siemens.de> <20000308131852.A22683@dbit.dbit.com> <004c01bf8961$ca81cb00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <20000308225516.A24126@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 11:21:49AM +1030, Geoff Roberts wrote: > Interestingly, although he was a full call ham, he was a vigourous > opponent of morse being compulsory at speeds > 5wpm, as he said, based > on his experience, that some people simply > CANNOT learn it much beyond that level, no matter how hard they try. I > can believe that, I tried for YEARS to get up to 10wpm for my Full > license, but can't seem to quite get there. I've certainly heard people say that there's a real barrier between about 7 WPM and about 10 WPM. Sure fits my experience. As I said, at the lower speeds it just felt like a table lookup -- sometimes I found myself even picturing the actual piece of paper that I'd written my chart on. But after an infinite amount of practice it gets easier above that speed, the letters gradually pop into your head when you hear the Morse. Not to say that it isn't still really hard to get your speed up further, I sure failed the 20 WPM test the first 3 or 4 times, it got pretty depressing. I think foreign languages are the same. When you start out it's really hard work trying to formulate sentences, and trying to decode the ones you hear before you get a receiver overrun (how do translators on TV do it?!). But after a really ridiculous amount of practice it sort of changes, the "vague" part of your brain gets involved and you find yourself coughing up entire sentence fragments at a time, and on input you get a general feeling for what a sentence means before you've even gotten it to resolve into individual words in your mind. Not like I would know of course, I've forgotten most of what I ever learned. John Wilson D Bit From elvey at hal.com Wed Mar 8 21:59:39 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:02 2005 Subject: AMD 1820-1701 In-Reply-To: <38C7189C.B5DA6FF5@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: <200003090359.TAA23682@civic.hal.com> Craig Smith wrote: > Thanks to all for the answer to my question---correct on all counts. I > found one dual stamped [INTEL 8080A & 1820-1701]. "House numbered" parts > always seemed like odd thing to do--duplicated a lot of effort---did > they think they were hiding propriatiary information by obscuring the > actual #'s on chips, transistors, etc? Hi Craig The fact that you had a dual marked unit should tell you that they were no trying to hide it. It is just an inventory problem and also they can varify that warrenty repairs are only done to factory original parts. Inventory systems like this are often done in larger operations since they usually require the manufacture to mark the parts. It is such a small additional cost that the manufacture does it to sell the volume that HP usually buys. When parts come in, the warehouse guys know what and where it should go. It is really a pain though. I think someone on the net has a cross reference for HP numbers but I didn't keep the pointer. Dwight From elvey at hal.com Wed Mar 8 22:12:20 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update In-Reply-To: <004c01bf8961$ca81cb00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <200003090412.UAA23879@civic.hal.com> "Geoff Roberts" wrote: > > An Ex Naval instructor in Morse once told me that it was much better to > learn morse *as a language* than as a coded form of english. > Interestingly, although he was a full call ham, he was a vigourous > opponent of morse being compulsory at speeds > 5wpm, as he said, based > on his experience, that some people simply > CANNOT learn it much beyond that level, no matter how hard they try. I > can believe that, I tried for YEARS to get up to 10wpm for my Full > license, but can't seem to quite get there. Hi I once took a touch typing course. At the end of the first 2 weeks I was at 20 words a minute. At the end of the semester, I was at 20 words a minute. I'm just as fast with two fingers as with all 10. I type this message with just two and the right thumb. Dwight Just to stay on topic, there must be someone out there that has an EC-1 that wants to make patch modules for their machine? From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Mar 9 03:10:42 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages Message-ID: Interesting dialog on languages . . . . I myself have barely mastered English, american style. Somewhere along the way I took three years of French in High School, the result being that my English grades shot through the roof. Seems learning a foreign language helps one master English grammar. Maybe the problem is that one can't speak correct English in the first place. As for the Morse code, I've talked to many people who's answer was "I don't think I can learn the code." It isn't a matter of skill -- five year old kids have learned Morse code. I call it a case of 'wanna'. If you wanna you can learn anything. But since the FCC deregulated the Amateur licencing structure, getting 5 wpm is fairly easy, if you wanna. Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP From edick at idcomm.com Wed Mar 8 23:01:49 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages Message-ID: <001c01bf8984$94a9af20$0400c0a8@winbook> English is my second language, though I've been using it as my primary language since I was 6. Because I learned it as my second language, I've developed into one who's somewhat stilted in his usage of the language, and also one who's very much aware of the application of grammar, syntax, and orthography. I am, therefore, thoroughly convinced that American English, if it follows the current trend, will degenerate into a sequence of monosyllabic grunts and whines by the time another couple or three generations have passed. Just look at the more recent additions to the Webster International Lexicon of the English language: words like "duuhh" ... Dick -----Original Message----- From: Gary Hildebrand To: classiccmp Date: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 9:37 PM Subject: languages >Interesting dialog on languages . . . . > >I myself have barely mastered English, american style. Somewhere along the >way I took three years of French in High School, the result being that my >English grades shot through the roof. Seems learning a foreign language >helps one master English grammar. Maybe the problem is that one can't >speak correct English in the first place. > >As for the Morse code, I've talked to many people who's answer was "I don't >think I can learn the code." It isn't a matter of skill -- five year old >kids have learned Morse code. I call it a case of 'wanna'. If you wanna >you can learn anything. But since the FCC deregulated the Amateur licencing >structure, getting 5 wpm is fairly easy, if you wanna. > >Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Mar 8 23:02:33 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: touch typing In-Reply-To: <200003090412.UAA23879@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Dwight Elvey wrote: > Hi > I once took a touch typing course. At the end of the > first 2 weeks I was at 20 words a minute. At the > end of the semester, I was at 20 words a minute. > I'm just as fast with two fingers as with all 10. > I type this message with just two and the right > thumb. I did too, and abandoned touch-typing for years. When I finally stuck with it for more than 12 months, I went from 15 wpm looking at the keyboard to 70wpm without looking. Like anything else, practice, practice, practice. I touch type for 6-8 hours of my day, with several keymaps (depending on development environment), so I certainly don't think that 70wpm is exceptional. On the contrary; if I wasn't so lazy, I'd probably be a lot faster... Aaron From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Mar 9 01:37:39 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: touch typing In-Reply-To: References: <200003090412.UAA23879@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: >I did too, and abandoned touch-typing for years. When I finally stuck with >it for more than 12 months, I went from 15 wpm looking at the keyboard to >70wpm without looking. Like anything else, practice, practice, practice. I I touch type pretty fast, unfortunately in both directions. What got me over the hump of looking at the keyboard was an old Borland typing game, My Type I think. A little man would race another computer man down the screen based on your typing speed, stumbling each time your fingers did. Drove me nuts as it didn't want me to delete back to my mistake, just to keep typing. Email is what put the final edge on my typing speed. I am even learning to spell as I grow older thanks to internet usage. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Mar 9 01:23:30 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update In-Reply-To: <20000308225516.A24126@dbit.dbit.com> References: <004c01bf8961$ca81cb00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au>; from geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au on Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 11:21:49AM +1030 <200003081118.MAA18659@mail2.siemens.de> <20000308131852.A22683@dbit.dbit.com> <004c01bf8961$ca81cb00$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: >I've certainly heard people say that there's a real barrier between about >7 WPM and about 10 WPM. Sure fits my experience. As I said, at the I was willing to learn to touchtype, scared the heck out of my first employer to find out his new highly paid software guy was hunting and pecking with two fingers, but I refuse to become a human uart. Ten minutes after the first KIM-1 was available morse code lost its charm for me, and I have been scratching my head ever since wondering at people who haven't seen the light. ;) From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Mar 9 02:25:52 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update References: <200003090412.UAA23879@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <003d01bf89a1$155cb380$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight Elvey" To: Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2000 2:42 PM Subject: Re[2]: VCF Europa Update > I once took a touch typing course. At the end of the > first 2 weeks I was at 20 words a minute. At the > end of the semester, I was at 20 words a minute. > I'm just as fast with two fingers as with all 10. > I type this message with just two and the right > thumb. Maybe it's a consolation prize, I learnt to type 45wpm in 3 months on a Siemens Teleprinter. (And I got paid for it!) It has been very useful ever since.... I'd rather be good at morse though. Sigh. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 9 07:36:01 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: AMD 1820-1701 In-Reply-To: <38C7189C.B5DA6FF5@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: > found one dual stamped [INTEL 8080A & 1820-1701]. "House numbered" parts > always seemed like odd thing to do--duplicated a lot of effort---did > they think they were hiding propriatiary information by obscuring the > actual #'s on chips, transistors, etc? That and also it made their inventory easier as 1820-xxxx was their number and they didn't have to cross it to a drawing with their number. Allison From at258 at osfn.org Thu Mar 9 07:38:29 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <001c01bf8984$94a9af20$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: I think that trend to continue as long as social activists try to promote gibberish as language, as the ebonics debacle. I have always done well with English, and that is my field, where I earned two degrees, and always regretted not getting another. I do recall, though, that studying Latin did make things seem much easier to me, if only because the language forced organised thought. I think German might function that way also. I do regret that I never put sufficient effort into my studies to become really fluent in another language. I studied French, apparently had a gift for the language, and was on the verge of being able to speak it. What I really lacked was practise. I never really cared for the language, though, and never pursued it. On the other hand, the language I truly loved, Latin, is no longer a truly spoken one, and I learned the Church Latin pronunciation, which annoys everyone else, to my gratification. For my MA, I utilised my, by then very rusty Latin skills and also picked up enough Spanish to read St. John of the Cross. I do wish I could speak those languages readily, now, as well as German, which i think is beautiful. And along the way, I dabbled in Italian, Erse, Greek, Russian, and I have had a reading knowledge of Middle English pounded into my head. The key is simply time and practise, and I fully agree contemporary standards have fallen, which I attribute to the lack of Classics training in the schools. Also, it seems to be insane to image that one can write well, without reading quality texts. The writer that most impresses me these days is Dick Francis, he sets an impressive standard. On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > English is my second language, though I've been using it as my primary > language since I was 6. Because I learned it as my second language, I've > developed into one who's somewhat stilted in his usage of the language, and > also one who's very much aware of the application of grammar, syntax, and > orthography. I am, therefore, thoroughly convinced that American English, > if it follows the current trend, will degenerate into a sequence of > monosyllabic grunts and whines by the time another couple or three > generations have passed. Just look at the more recent additions to the > Webster International Lexicon of the English language: words like "duuhh" > ... > > Dick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary Hildebrand > To: classiccmp > Date: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 9:37 PM > Subject: languages > > > >Interesting dialog on languages . . . . > > > >I myself have barely mastered English, american style. Somewhere along the > >way I took three years of French in High School, the result being that my > >English grades shot through the roof. Seems learning a foreign language > >helps one master English grammar. Maybe the problem is that one can't > >speak correct English in the first place. > > > >As for the Morse code, I've talked to many people who's answer was "I don't > >think I can learn the code." It isn't a matter of skill -- five year old > >kids have learned Morse code. I call it a case of 'wanna'. If you wanna > >you can learn anything. But since the FCC deregulated the Amateur > licencing > >structure, getting 5 wpm is fairly easy, if you wanna. > > > >Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Mar 9 08:31:44 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: AMD 1820-1701 In-Reply-To: <200003090359.TAA23682@civic.hal.com> References: <38C7189C.B5DA6FF5@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000309093144.4e4f1704@mailhost.intellistar.net> There is a on line HP part number cross reference. It's at "http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/". It's not very complete though. I've been sending him more cross references but he hasn't been posting them. Joe At 07:59 PM 3/8/00 -0800, you wrote: >Craig Smith wrote: >> Thanks to all for the answer to my question---correct on all counts. I >> found one dual stamped [INTEL 8080A & 1820-1701]. "House numbered" parts >> always seemed like odd thing to do--duplicated a lot of effort---did >> they think they were hiding propriatiary information by obscuring the >> actual #'s on chips, transistors, etc? > >Hi Craig > The fact that you had a dual marked unit should tell you that >they were no trying to hide it. It is just an inventory >problem and also they can varify that warrenty repairs >are only done to factory original parts. Inventory systems >like this are often done in larger operations since they >usually require the manufacture to mark the parts. It >is such a small additional cost that the manufacture >does it to sell the volume that HP usually buys. >When parts come in, the warehouse guys know what and >where it should go. > It is really a pain though. I think someone on the net >has a cross reference for HP numbers but I didn't keep >the pointer. >Dwight > > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 9 07:47:26 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update In-Reply-To: <20000308225516.A24126@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > I've certainly heard people say that there's a real barrier between about > 7 WPM and about 10 WPM. Sure fits my experience. As I said, at the > lower speeds it just felt like a table lookup -- sometimes I found myself I've persued morse once aqnd found this, there is a transition point where you go from lookup to knowing the sounds like in speech. Thsi varies for some people as for transmitting it requires a manual skill and receiving and auditory skill So there is some asymetry in the learning process. At lest a few people advise learning the morse letters at fairly high speeds with long pauses between each letter to allow getting used to the sound at say 13wpm. I'm looking forward to the restructuring for the nocode as I can do the tech portion of the test easily and the rules are not to bad. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 9 07:56:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <001c01bf8984$94a9af20$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > English is my second language, though I've been using it as my primary > language since I was 6. Because I learned it as my second language, I've > developed into one who's somewhat stilted in his usage of the language, and > also one who's very much aware of the application of grammar, syntax, and > orthography. I am, therefore, thoroughly convinced that American English, > if it follows the current trend, will degenerate into a sequence of > monosyllabic grunts and whines by the time another couple or three > generations have passed. Just look at the more recent additions to the > Webster International Lexicon of the English language: words like "duuhh" Like totally Duh. Whatever! To be totally consistant with the bad language trend of this country. Depressing, is it not? Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 9 08:08:37 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > I think that trend to continue as long as social activists try to promote > gibberish as language, as the ebonics debacle. I'd be one to agree with that. > I have always done well with English, and that is my field, where I earned > two degrees, and always regretted not getting another. I do recall, > though, that studying Latin did make things seem much easier to me, if > only because the language forced organised thought. I think German might > function that way also. Some may laugh but it was learning Pascal after years of assembler, focal and Basics that helped improve my english as it was the first time I got to see structure at work. Up to that point verbs and nouns were more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools. Allison From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Mar 9 09:12:35 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: References: <001c01bf8984$94a9af20$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200003091413.PAA19112@mail2.siemens.de> > > English is my second language, though I've been using it as my primary > > language since I was 6. Because I learned it as my second language, I've > > developed into one who's somewhat stilted in his usage of the language, and > > also one who's very much aware of the application of grammar, syntax, and > > orthography. I am, therefore, thoroughly convinced that American English, > > if it follows the current trend, will degenerate into a sequence of > > monosyllabic grunts and whines by the time another couple or three > > generations have passed. Just look at the more recent additions to the > > Webster International Lexicon of the English language: words like "duuhh" > Like totally Duh. Whatever! > To be totally consistant with the bad language trend of this country. > Depressing, is it not? Somewhat - and to increase your depression, it's the same over here. To 'create' a somewhat simplified and specialized slang is still a basic element and a right of the youth - it's done in every generation. Just, nowadays these words are no longer 'your' language but adopted by public media - pop culture business - creating two trends: a) using this words in publications and even news 'shows' degrades the language, and b) the next generation has to find new words to be different. And that's where the real degrading starts by creating a faster and faster cycle of new hot words. I assume everybody remembers when he/she was about 13 to 18 and created/discovered their private language with lots of special (and bad) words (and later on learned to drop this behaviour again) - just, at least in my case, I realized (again later) a lot of these 'new' stuff was the same youth language my father did know and even my grand father. What a difference it is now, where realy new slang comes up every few years (I did follow this thru my girls, now 24 and 20). I put this unhealthy cycle (partly) on the modern pop media - if they 'steal' the 'secret' youth language by publishing and using it without any restriction they dig a hole without an end. Anyway - It's a bit like all the Basic dialects during the 80s, when every computer has to use some stuff different, even when bothe used a MS product. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Mar 9 10:04:09 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages Message-ID: <20000309160409.11995.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > I do recall, though, that studying Latin did make things seem much > easier to me, if only because the language forced organised thought. Ditto on the Latin - 4 years in High School. I think in my case, since I had no decent formal training in English (my native language), learning Latin grammar produced an understanding of English grammar. I do know that learning Latin made it easier to learn Greek. I had an idea of what sorts of phrases and subordinate clauses exist, and so knew to ask how these concepts translated to Greek ("cum clauses", for example, or the many uses of infinitives) > ...I learned the Church Latin pronunciation, which annoys everyone else, to > my gratification... Ack! Heretic! :-) My Latin teacher told us a story of when _he_ went to out High School in the 1960's - they learned Church Latin and it was a supreme effort of will not to laugh when conjugating the present tense of the verb "scio", to know. For the confused reader at home, it goes... "scio, scis, scit, scimus, scistis, sciunt" and in Classical Latin C's are hard, giving us "skeeo, skiss, skit...". Church Latin uses a soft C here, resulting in "sheeo, shiss...". Try *that* in a room full of sophmores. -ethan P.S. - if I've messed up the full conjugation, my apologies; it's off the top of my head, 18 years later. The nugget of the story, however, is accurate. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 9 11:06:37 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages Message-ID: <000c01bf89e9$d507b2a0$0400c0a8@winbook> I tried hard to understand the socio-psychological dynamic that led up to the development of this pseudo-language, Ebonyx, in the minds of the west-coast (that's code for "californicated") education community's leaders. The place I arrived was at the conclusion that since the west-coast community was unable to teach the young Blacks to stay in their chairs on the few occasions on which they did attend class, they certainly couldn't teach them to read, speak, and write properly, so they were forced to classify what they, the young Blacks, did instead was another language. This was seriously muddled in the debate over whether the educators on the west coast should also be required to read, write, and speak properly. The notion of Ebonyx was their way to "throw-in-the-towel" (for those unfamiliar with U.S. boxing industry practice, this is a signal of surrender.) so they wouldn't themselves have to learn what they had shown they couldn't teach. If you ever spend any time in today's U.S. public schools, you'll be appalled at the low quality of speech which has become the norm among today's educators. When I was a pupil in the public schools, I always found my teachers able to speak better-than-average English. Today, that's no longer the case. They've become so wrapped up in being "friends" with the pupils, they've forgotten they need to set an example. I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the tools that should have been taught with English, e.g. organization and structure in sentences, to underscore basic grammar, and organization in writing, which certainly appears to be a dying art, are lacking, so there's no point of reference. Try asking a recent high school graduate what a gerund or an infinitive is. Then ask what the different between a present participle and a gerund is. Don't even bother to discuss sentence diagrams, since the teacher themselves don't know how to apply such tools. Foreign languages all have their own sentence structure and grammar. If a teacher can't make reference to a model their pupils must know, there's nowhere for them to go in order to teach those same characteristics in another language. It's a sad situation. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 7:44 AM Subject: Re: languages > > >On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > >> >> I think that trend to continue as long as social activists try to promote >> gibberish as language, as the ebonics debacle. > >I'd be one to agree with that. > >> I have always done well with English, and that is my field, where I earned >> two degrees, and always regretted not getting another. I do recall, >> though, that studying Latin did make things seem much easier to me, if >> only because the language forced organised thought. I think German might >> function that way also. > >Some may laugh but it was learning Pascal after years of assembler, >focal and Basics that helped improve my english as it was the first time >I got to see structure at work. Up to that point verbs and nouns were >more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools. > >Allison > > > From stevemas at persys.com Thu Mar 9 11:54:41 2000 From: stevemas at persys.com (Steve Mastrianni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: testing Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000309125356.00b6bea0@persys.com> testing 1, 2, 3 --Steve Mastrianni From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Mar 9 10:39:19 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: PDP-11/05 with RX02 :-( Message-ID: <008201bf89e6$04b94f80$b228d1d8@default> I can't find my book on the M8256 (RX211) so I don't know if the switches are set right. I have a PDP-11/05 here that works fine and boots up RT11 or XXDP on an RX01 with an RX11. When I replace the RX01 system with an RX211 and an RX02 and try and boot RT11 the CPU hangs up at: 173546 , run light on. Requires a full reset to clear. I have tried other RX211s, RX02s, and cables and the same problem occurs. The disk is being accessed for a little while (4 or 5 "clicks") and dies.... If anyone here has a quick "config" fix I would appreciate it otherwise I guess I will dive into the boxes of manuals/fiche later today. Current 11/05 config: Main CPU M9312 w DY rom RX211 with RX02 8K core ODT and passes diagnostics. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 9 11:55:08 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <000c01bf89e9$d507b2a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: An aside... I find this discussion interesting and agree with the demise of modern language but, this is a great stretch from discussing classic computers. Of course if we drift into the structured language debate of the late 70s we will all require asbestos/kevlar/ceramic britches. ;) Allison From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Mar 9 11:57:22 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages References: <000c01bf89e9$d507b2a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <38C7E602.1D9D4688@mainecoon.com> Richard Erlacher wrote: [Stuff deleted] > I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the tools > that should have been taught with English, [more stuff deleted] I recently had the sad task of judging science fair projects from three local high schools. It was pathetic. Since this thread is about language skills I'll ignore for the moment the more or less complete lack of understanding of the scientific method and the extensive use of crayons in constructing the presentations and focus on the stellar language skills that were almost uniformly present across all of the entries. The short form summary is that if I'd written in the fashion of these high school students when I was in second grade I'd have been taken out and shot. Certainly there were large collections of words, some of them polysyllabic, but in general they were not arranged into anything that was parsable as an english sentence. Written materials depended on spelling correctors to eliminate spelling errors, sometimes with frightening yet amusing consequences ("...our science fairy teacher..."). There were a few entries which were clever, well constructed, well executed and innovative. Talking with the instructors I learned that these were from the bright but bored students who twiddle their thumbs while their neanderthal classmates struggled with basic coursework (in California the instructional system is geared to address the needs of the lowest common denominator; resources are generally not available for exceptional students). The entry judged Best of Show was constructed by one such student in a few hours on the day immediately preceding the judging. > It's a sad situation. It's beyond sad. It's criminal. FWIW, California is now going to start imposing financial penalties upon high schools whose students do not perform at some minimal level. The problem, of course, is that the students are already lacking fundamental skills that they should have received at the elementary level, thus penalizing the high schools is not going to fix the problem. Rather, it will cause even more resources to be diverted to already unsalvageable students while penalizing those who actually have a chance to do something useful with their lives. *Grumble*, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Mar 9 12:01:22 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <000c01bf89e9$d507b2a0$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 09, 2000 10:06:37 AM Message-ID: <200003091801.LAA07380@calico.litterbox.com> *snip* > I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the tools > that should have been taught with English, e.g. organization and structure > in sentences, to underscore basic grammar, and organization in writing, > which certainly appears to be a dying art, are lacking, so there's no point > of reference. Try asking a recent high school graduate what a gerund or an > infinitive is. Then ask what the different between a present participle and > a gerund is. Don't even bother to discuss sentence diagrams, since the > teacher themselves don't know how to apply such tools. Foreign languages > all have their own sentence structure and grammar. If a teacher can't make > reference to a model their pupils must know, there's nowhere for them to go > in order to teach those same characteristics in another language. > > It's a sad situation. > > Dick I agree with the fundamental premise of this post, but I have to disagree with the example of grammar. See, classical grammer, what most of us DID learn in high school, was actually lifted from latin grammar. It never fit English very well. In the last 20 years or so there have arisen new systems of grammar which understand a word order language like English far better than latin grammar, which was designed for a word-ending language where word order is irrelivant, ever could. Of course, THESE grammars are not well taught either, but the fact that a modern high school student doesn't know gerunds and present participles may well be because that whole system of grammar is no longer taught. It never was that useful to begin with. Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 9 12:20:25 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages Message-ID: <001d01bf89f4$2446aba0$0400c0a8@winbook> You're right, of course, Allison, but I love to bitch about the way the nation's schools are destroying our language and our future. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 11:07 AM Subject: Re: languages >An aside... > >I find this discussion interesting and agree with the demise of modern >language but, this is a great stretch from discussing classic computers. > >Of course if we drift into the structured language debate of the late 70s >we will all require asbestos/kevlar/ceramic britches. ;) > >Allison > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Mar 9 13:22:15 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <000c01bf89e9$d507b2a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200003091823.TAA28162@mail2.siemens.de> > The notion of Ebonyx was their way to "throw-in-the-towel" (for those > unfamiliar with U.S. boxing industry practice, this is a signal of > surrender.) Well, throw-in-the-towel is known (at least the acording phrase is in wide use in Germany - just most don't know the orgin), but what is Ebonyx ? And, Jim, for the Grammer ting, don't forget that English is a bastard based on (at least) 5 languages from 3 different language families (No Offense Ment). And for the Computer part: I remember people during the 70's dreaming of real world computer languages, where a computer language may evolve not only into a tool for programming, but also able to be used as (somewhat simple) human language. And now we have C - isn't C a bit like the stuff we are talking about - the lowest common denominator of programming languages at all ? Serious, ain't we are going exactly the same way with programming languages as with real ones ? Just instead of centuries, it took only some dozend years to go from Machine code (grunting sounds) to ADA (Goethes Poems) and only less than 10 years to fall back to C ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 9 12:26:33 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages Message-ID: <002201bf89f4$ff8699a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Actually, I've observed the same thing here in Colorado, though the financial penalty for sub-par students hasn't caught on yet. I've tried to figure out whether there isn't a cultural bias among our seemingly increasing Hispanic population, comprising 43% of our student population. Hispanics are culturally biased not exactly against education, but perhaps against getting an education when you can be getting money instead. There's some hint of that, but it's certainly not going to be studied in these days of political-correctness, so it probably won't be fixed if it is a causal influence. Perhaps that's a factor in California as well. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Chris Kennedy To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 11:14 AM Subject: Re: languages >Richard Erlacher wrote: > >[Stuff deleted] > >> I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the tools >> that should have been taught with English, > >[more stuff deleted] > >I recently had the sad task of judging science fair projects from three local >high schools. It was pathetic. Since this thread is about language skills >I'll ignore for the moment the more or less complete lack of understanding >of the scientific method and the extensive use of crayons in constructing >the presentations and focus on the stellar language skills that were almost >uniformly present across all of the entries. > >The short form summary is that if I'd written in the fashion of these high >school students when I was in second grade I'd have been taken out and shot. >Certainly there were large collections of words, some of them polysyllabic, >but in general they were not arranged into anything that was parsable as >an english sentence. Written materials depended on spelling correctors >to eliminate spelling errors, sometimes with frightening yet amusing >consequences ("...our science fairy teacher..."). > >There were a few entries which were clever, well constructed, well executed >and innovative. Talking with the instructors I learned that these were >from the bright but bored students who twiddle their thumbs while their >neanderthal classmates struggled with basic coursework (in California the >instructional system is geared to address the needs of the lowest common >denominator; resources are generally not available for exceptional >students). The entry judged Best of Show was constructed by one such >student in a few hours on the day immediately preceding the judging. > >> It's a sad situation. > >It's beyond sad. It's criminal. > >FWIW, California is now going to start imposing financial penalties upon >high schools whose students do not perform at some minimal level. The >problem, of course, is that the students are already lacking fundamental >skills that they should have received at the elementary level, thus >penalizing the high schools is not going to fix the problem. Rather, it >will cause even more resources to be diverted to already unsalvageable >students while penalizing those who actually have a chance to do something >useful with their lives. > >*Grumble*, >Chris >-- >Chris Kennedy >chris@mainecoon.com >http://www.mainecoon.com >PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 9 12:37:08 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages Message-ID: <002b01bf89f6$7a0b8a40$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 11:18 AM Subject: Re: languages >*snip* > >> I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the tools >> that should have been taught with English, e.g. organization and structure >> in sentences, to underscore basic grammar, and organization in writing, >> which certainly appears to be a dying art, are lacking, so there's no point >> of reference. Try asking a recent high school graduate what a gerund or an >> infinitive is. Then ask what the different between a present participle and >> a gerund is. Don't even bother to discuss sentence diagrams, since the >> teacher themselves don't know how to apply such tools. Foreign languages >> all have their own sentence structure and grammar. If a teacher can't make >> reference to a model their pupils must know, there's nowhere for them to go >> in order to teach those same characteristics in another language. >> >> It's a sad situation. >> >> Dick > >I agree with the fundamental premise of this post, but I have to disagree with >the example of grammar. See, classical grammer, what most of us DID learn in >high school, was actually lifted from latin grammar. It never fit English very >well. In the last 20 years or so there have arisen new systems of grammar >which understand a word order language like English far better than Latin >grammar, which was designed for a word-ending language where word order is >irrelevant, ever could. Of course, THESE grammars are not well taught either, >but the fact that a modern high school student doesn't know gerunds and present >participles may well be because that whole system of grammar is no longer >taught. It never was that useful to begin with. > First of all, you must consider that, unlike French and Spanish, English is not a Latin-derived language, but rather a Germaic language. It's true that English is a language that has developed over the centuries into one which does allow word order to effect sentence meaning, unlike most other modern languages. However, having seen MANY sentences written by college graduates to be lacking in subject or verb, or grossly misusing predicate nominatives or adjectives, I have to say that the BASIC STRUCTURE that was taught by simple tools like sentence diagrams (remember them?) tended to teach people who were taught that structure to write complete sentences. Along the way, it was taught that one shouldn't split infinitives, end sentences with prepositions, and so on. The lack of that basic structure is "out there" in the newspapers, magazines and, even worse, in the common speech observable in radio and television programs every day. I have to disagree with the notion that it's not important to know whether a word is a gerund or a participle. Knowing that they exist means knowing that there's a difference, hence, serves as an aid in using them correctly. > >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! >----------------------------------------------------------------------- From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Thu Mar 9 12:37:47 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <200003091823.TAA28162@mail2.siemens.de> from Hans Franke at "Mar 9, 2000 07:23:15 pm" Message-ID: <20000309183805Z433728-8459+299@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > And for the Computer part: I remember people during the > 70's dreaming of real world computer languages, where > a computer language may evolve not only into a tool for > programming, but also able to be used as (somewhat simple) > human language. And now we have C - isn't C a bit like the > stuff we are talking about - the lowest common denominator > of programming languages at all ? > > Serious, ain't we are going exactly the same way with > programming languages as with real ones ? Just instead > of centuries, it took only some dozend years to go from > Machine code (grunting sounds) to ADA (Goethes Poems) > and only less than 10 years to fall back to C ? > I think the most obvious example of this is Java, and the comments its developers made about C++. To paraphrase, all the hard parts of C++ were removed to get Java. Programmers had trouble with certain C++ features, so they were removed. Same logic as with natural language. Unfortunately, the parts of C++ removed are very important, particularly for large systems. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 9 12:00:33 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: AMD 1820-1701 In-Reply-To: <38C7189C.B5DA6FF5@roanoke.infi.net> (message from Craig Smith on Wed, 08 Mar 2000 22:21:00 -0500) References: <200003080310.WAA03436@world.std.com> <38C7189C.B5DA6FF5@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: <20000309180033.12688.qmail@brouhaha.com> > found one dual stamped [INTEL 8080A & 1820-1701]. "House numbered" parts > always seemed like odd thing to do--duplicated a lot of effort---did > they think they were hiding propriatiary information by obscuring the > actual #'s on chips, transistors, etc? Maybe sometimes that's part of the point, but probably not in this case. Usually the point is more a matter of making the equipment manufacturer's inventory management and production flow simpler. There may be a bunch of parts from varioius vendors that are qualified to be used, but if they're all stamped "1820-1701", that makes things easier. In cases where the chip manufacturer's standard part number is not also marked, this may simply be because it's harder for the vendor to put more markings on the chip; if the customer only cares about the house marking, it doesn't really matter whether the standard part number is present or not. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 9 12:01:48 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <001c01bf8984$94a9af20$0400c0a8@winbook> (edick@idcomm.com) References: <001c01bf8984$94a9af20$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000309180148.12710.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > I am, therefore, thoroughly convinced that American English, > if it follows the current trend, will degenerate into a sequence of > monosyllabic grunts and whines by the time another couple or three > generations have passed. Huh? :-) You mean it hasn't already? D'oh! From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Mar 9 12:03:14 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: (allisonp@world.std.com) References: Message-ID: <20000309180314.12737.qmail@brouhaha.com> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > Up to that point verbs and nouns were > more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools. This sentence no verb! :-) From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Mar 9 12:55:38 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages (Ebonics) In-Reply-To: ; from at258@osfn.org on Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 08:38:29AM -0500 References: <001c01bf8984$94a9af20$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000309105538.A2135@loomcom.com> > I think that trend to continue as long as social activists try to promote > gibberish as language, as the ebonics debacle. I hate to be pedantic, but "Ebonics" really is called Black English Vernacular (BEV) by linguists, and has been a recognized form of spoken english by linguists for at least 30 years. It was made most famous in Linguistics circles by William Lebov's paper "Language in the inner city: studies in the Black English Vernacular" in 1972. BEV follows strict rules of grammar and word use, and has syntactic roots in several major west African languages like Ewe, Iwo, and Yoruba. It really is not gibberish at all, no matter how "wrong" it sounds to a native Standard American English speaker (me included). In some ways, it actually allows much finer grained shades of meaning than SAE does. In some ways, less. That's how different languages work. But the fact that it follows a definable complex grammar can't be debated, it's been studied to death by linguists everywhere. How the Oakland School Board was using BEV for its own purposes is an entirely different matter which I won't even begin to touch on. That's politics, not language. For a real thrill, try finding information on the dialect of English spoken on Ocracoke Island in North Carolina. Although it's dying out now, there still remain a few native inhabitants of the island who can speak it. They were mainly descended from Scottish immigrants who were more or less entirely cut off from the mainland when shipping lanes changed in the 18th century, and left to develop their own dialect and speech rules over the course of the next two hundred years. (Yes, I was a linguistics major. No, I haven't done anything useful with it. That's why I'm a programmer now.) -Seth From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Mar 9 14:20:57 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <38C7E602.1D9D4688@mainecoon.com> References: <000c01bf89e9$d507b2a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000309152057.31bf2bba@mailhost.intellistar.net> Chris, Good explanation, you cleared identified a part of the problem but it's not all the student's fault. An even worse problem is that the students are taught by teachers that aren't any better educated than the students they're teaching. We can thanks years of preferential college admissions and hiring practices for that. Furthermore the quality of teachers as declined steadily with the rise in power of the NEA and other teacher's unions since most teacher's are more concerned about their income than in teaching. Other factors such as the decision to teach in "native languages" haven't helped either. Every part of the educational system is lowering it's standards to accomodate the worst (insert your choice here; student, teacher, school system, income, etc etc). And every part of the system is failing to support the other parts. The whole educational system is in chaos. I wonder if the US is the only country that is having these kinds of problems in it's "educational" system? Joe At 09:57 AM 3/9/00 -0800, Chris wrote: >Richard Erlacher wrote: > >[Stuff deleted] > >> I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the tools >> that should have been taught with English, > >[more stuff deleted] > >I recently had the sad task of judging science fair projects from three local >high schools. It was pathetic. Since this thread is about language skills >I'll ignore for the moment the more or less complete lack of understanding >of the scientific method and the extensive use of crayons in constructing >the presentations and focus on the stellar language skills that were almost >uniformly present across all of the entries. > >The short form summary is that if I'd written in the fashion of these high >school students when I was in second grade I'd have been taken out and shot. >Certainly there were large collections of words, some of them polysyllabic, >but in general they were not arranged into anything that was parsable as >an english sentence. Written materials depended on spelling correctors >to eliminate spelling errors, sometimes with frightening yet amusing >consequences ("...our science fairy teacher..."). > >There were a few entries which were clever, well constructed, well executed >and innovative. Talking with the instructors I learned that these were >from the bright but bored students who twiddle their thumbs while their >neanderthal classmates struggled with basic coursework (in California the >instructional system is geared to address the needs of the lowest common >denominator; resources are generally not available for exceptional >students). The entry judged Best of Show was constructed by one such >student in a few hours on the day immediately preceding the judging. > >> It's a sad situation. > >It's beyond sad. It's criminal. > >FWIW, California is now going to start imposing financial penalties upon >high schools whose students do not perform at some minimal level. The >problem, of course, is that the students are already lacking fundamental >skills that they should have received at the elementary level, thus >penalizing the high schools is not going to fix the problem. Rather, it >will cause even more resources to be diverted to already unsalvageable >students while penalizing those who actually have a chance to do something >useful with their lives. > >*Grumble*, >Chris >-- >Chris Kennedy >chris@mainecoon.com >http://www.mainecoon.com >PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 > From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Mar 9 13:20:47 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <200003091823.TAA28162@mail2.siemens.de> from "Hans Franke" at Mar 09, 2000 07:23:15 PM Message-ID: <200003091920.MAA07790@calico.litterbox.com> > Well, throw-in-the-towel is known (at least the acording > phrase is in wide use in Germany - just most don't know > the orgin), but what is Ebonyx ? Ebonyx was the attempt by some boards of education in California to establish the slang associated with Black culture as a language so they could get funding to teach english as a second language. It was always a brazen attempt to get funding, nothing more. > > And, Jim, for the Grammer ting, don't forget that English > is a bastard based on (at least) 5 languages from 3 different > language families (No Offense Ment). None taken. You're absolutely correct. English took much of its structure from Norweigan, and much of its vocabulary from Norman French, and simplified both. It picks up vocabulary from everywhere, and when that fails words are simply made up. I'm thinking here of Scuba and Radar, wich both started out as acronyms and are now ordinary nouns. *snip* > Serious, ain't we are going exactly the same way with > programming languages as with real ones ? Just instead > of centuries, it took only some dozend years to go from > Machine code (grunting sounds) to ADA (Goethes Poems) *laugh* I'm not sure I'd compare any computer language to Goethe, but it's a good analogy... > and only less than 10 years to fall back to C ? > > Gruss > H. I think Hans is making a bit of a joke here, but he's not far from the mark. A living language is not a static thing. It grows. It evolves. Parts are added and other parts dropped as the society that speaks it changes. Until recently (ie the last 20 years or so) English was taught in a very prescriptive way - x is the correct way to speak, where x is whatever dictionary and/or grammar system you embrace. However in the late 60s (things take time to filter into the education system) some language experts - notably Webster's Dictionary among them - began to realise that language *changes* over time. Websters dictionary embraced a descriptive philosophy - we're not in the business of telling you how you SHOULD speak, only how you DO speak. One of the results of this was the formation of the American Heritage dictionary, which clung to the prescriptive philosophy. Ultimately I think the descriptive folks are correct. While I agree with Dick and others that as the English language is simplified it looses alot of its elegance and beauty, I'd rather see that than the total stagnation that results with rigid prescriptiveism. A great example of what happens to a language when it is artificially prevented from changing is French. With the establishment of the French Acadamy and the legislation against borrowings from other languages, in a few hundred years French went from the language of diplomacy to a linguistic backwater, populated with grotesque and awkward words created to describe things where a borrowing had been previously used. None of this changes the fact that today's schools are doing a lousy job teaching people to communicate. (In the US). One need only look at the web to see this - US domains which are so cluttered and badly designed and where the text is so obtuse and irrellivant that the entire page is useless abound. (Yes, in this graphical age, I think page layout should be taught alongside some understanding of grammar and spelling). Schools are instead focusing on self esteem building, instead of teaching and letting students develop self esteem when they *succeed*. Obviously grinding a student's ego into the floor every time they mess up is the wrong way to go about teaching anything, but so is pushing self esteem above education. *sigh* If I had children, I would definately feel ripped off by todays schools. Anyway, I've gone on much longer in this message than intended, but in addition to hitting a nerve this thread also hit stuff I studied in college, so... :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Mar 9 13:30:25 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <20000309180314.12737.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 09, 2000 06:03:14 PM Message-ID: <200003091930.MAA07892@calico.litterbox.com> > > allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Up to that point verbs and nouns were > > more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools. > > This sentence no verb! :-) Erm. Hmm. You can construe that sentance to have a verb, but it doesn't make any sense if you do. :) Verb, the word, has become a verb of late. To verb another word, you make it into a verb. So if you verb verb (ugh) you're saying your sentance doesn't verb. (double ugh). :) Now you've done it. You've got me playing word games. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Mar 9 14:45:29 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <200003091920.MAA07790@calico.litterbox.com> References: <200003091823.TAA28162@mail2.siemens.de> from "Hans Franke" at Mar 09, 2000 07:23:15 PM Message-ID: <200003091946.UAA23327@mail2.siemens.de> > > Well, throw-in-the-towel is known (at least the acording > > phrase is in wide use in Germany - just most don't know > > the orgin), but what is Ebonyx ? > Ebonyx was the attempt by some boards of education in California to establish > the slang associated with Black culture as a language so they could get funding > to teach english as a second language. It was always a brazen attempt to get > funding, nothing more. :)) > > Serious, ain't we are going exactly the same way with > > programming languages as with real ones ? Just instead > > of centuries, it took only some dozend years to go from > > Machine code (grunting sounds) to ADA (Goethes Poems) > *laugh* I'm not sure I'd compare any computer language to Goethe, but it's > a good analogy... :) > > and only less than 10 years to fall back to C ? > I think Hans is making a bit of a joke here, but he's not far from the mark. > A living language is not a static thing. It grows. It evolves. Parts are > added and other parts dropped as the society that speaks it changes. Until > recently (ie the last 20 years or so) English was taught in a very prescriptive > way - x is the correct way to speak, where x is whatever dictionary and/or > grammar system you embrace. No, I'm bloody serious (beside some humorous thing). In my opinion C (and C++) is way down the ladder and as more as I think about I find it more and more similar to the 'real' language thing discussed in here. I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the sense of degeneration. I often think about what happened - why are all other languages out classed ? Some beauty(and use)full are almost forgotten. What happened to Pascal, Modula or Smalltalk (not to talk about ADA which I still consider the best design ever) ? There's only C (no, I don't recognize C++ or Java on their own). And interestingly a still existing COBOL population. > However in the late 60s (things take time to > filter into the education system) some language experts - notably Webster's > Dictionary among them - began to realise that language *changes* over time. > Websters dictionary embraced a descriptive philosophy - we're not in the > business of telling you how you SHOULD speak, only how you DO speak. > One of the results of this was the formation of the American Heritage > dictionary, which clung to the prescriptive philosophy. Well, to late over here - Standard German has equalized most German languages and dialects. More than 100 years of Education did succeede. Anyway H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Mar 9 13:55:52 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages (Ebonics) In-Reply-To: <20000309105538.A2135@loomcom.com>; from sethm@loomcom.com on Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 10:55:38AM -0800 References: <001c01bf8984$94a9af20$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000309105538.A2135@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <20000309145552.A26512@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 10:55:38AM -0800, sjm wrote: > BEV follows strict rules of grammar and word use, and has syntactic > roots in several major west African languages like Ewe, Iwo, > and Yoruba. It really is not gibberish at all, no matter how > "wrong" it sounds to a native Standard American English speaker > (me included). In some ways, it actually allows much finer grained > shades of meaning than SAE does. I'd love to see an example of this! What really catches my attention is when someone begins a sentence with "know what I'm saying?", there's a lot of stuff like that that's really annoyingly meaningless. Also I'm not sure how much can really be traced to Africa, since a lot of this stuff really seems to have only cropped up in the past few generations. Ahhhh, what ever happened to Jive? Now *that* was fun to listen to! Ehh, I mean, that was a thing to which it was fun to listen. Never mind... John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 9 13:14:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: AMD 1820-1701 In-Reply-To: <38C7189C.B5DA6FF5@roanoke.infi.net> from "Craig Smith" at Mar 8, 0 10:21:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1358 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000309/a8b272ab/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 9 13:17:09 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: VCF Europa Update In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Mar 8, 0 11:23:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 738 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000309/4dcac728/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 9 13:24:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: PDP-11/05 with RX02 :-( In-Reply-To: <008201bf89e6$04b94f80$b228d1d8@default> from "John B" at Mar 9, 0 11:39:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1274 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000309/d9d718f9/attachment.ksh From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Mar 9 14:13:14 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <200003091823.TAA28162@mail2.siemens.de>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 07:23:15PM +0000 References: <000c01bf89e9$d507b2a0$0400c0a8@winbook> <200003091823.TAA28162@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <20000309151314.B26512@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 07:23:15PM +0000, Hans Franke wrote: > but what is Ebonyx ? "Ebonics" is the latest euphenism for the seemingly grammarless slang used by a lot of people these days, especially the uneducated. The name is just silly though, why name a language after a tree, or maybe they meant the magazine? I guess that's just more PCness, no one ever wants to specifically say what race they're talking about (even when it's obvious to everyone), especially in this case where the so-called "language" is something from which you have to distance yourself if you want to be taken seriously. > And, Jim, for the Grammer ting, don't forget that English > is a bastard based on (at least) 5 languages from 3 different > language families (No Offense Ment). And *none* of those families wants to admit English is their child! Well it's evolved quite a bit on its own so it's silly to try to draw too close a parallel to anything. John Wilson D Bit From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Mar 9 14:09:50 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: PDP-11/05 with RX02 :-( Message-ID: <000309150950.25603037@trailing-edge.com> > >I have a PDP-11/05 here that works fine and boots up RT11 or XXDP on an RX01 >with an RX11. When I replace the RX01 system with an RX211 and an RX02 and >try and boot RT11 the CPU hangs up at: > >173546 , run light on. Requires a full reset to clear. > >I have tried other RX211s, RX02s, and cables and the same problem occurs. To get to *real* basics: The RX11 is a programmed I/O device. The RX211 is (as usually used) a DMA device. You'll probably have to remove the NPR continuity wire across the slot when you put the RX211 in it, and ensure that this signal is continuous up to that far too. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Mar 9 14:05:15 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <200003091825.MAA42779@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: ....So that's why we home-school, which pretty much sums up *my* opinion. Hmm... what's the ideal home-schooling computer? I want the kids to own the computer, be able to learn languages (Pascal, C++, Forth, open to suggestions, as well as Japanese, Russian, etc.), be able to do science projects with it, be able to word-process but not necessarily spell-check, be able to run good educational software. I'm already biased towards a Mac Plus (and own one), but certainly ready for suggestions. NeXT? MicroVax 3100? Cost, hardware and software, is a factor, of course. I'm *hoping* this is an on-topic question, in as much as classic computers are cheaper and simpler but demand more of the user to make work properly and therefore make better learning tools than current machines; if the answer is a new wintel box or a new iBook, I'd still like to hear it but I'd like to hear it off-list. TIA, - Mark From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Mar 9 14:50:50 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <200003091946.UAA23327@mail2.siemens.de> from "Hans Franke" at Mar 09, 2000 08:46:29 PM Message-ID: <200003092050.NAA08204@calico.litterbox.com> *snip* > > Well, to late over here - Standard German has equalized most German > languages and dialects. More than 100 years of Education did succeede. > > Anyway > H. I thought book mal (which I KNOW is spelled wrong, what little German spelling I knew in undergrad school I've long since forgotten) was the standard for education, but I didn't think there were laws requiring it. Are there? -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 9 15:03:50 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <001d01bf89f4$2446aba0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > You're right, of course, Allison, but I love to bitch about the way the > nation's schools are destroying our language and our future. So do I but, I digress... ;) Allison From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Mar 9 15:07:04 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Mar 09, 2000 02:05:15 PM Message-ID: <200003092107.OAA08276@calico.litterbox.com> > > ....So that's why we home-school, which pretty much sums up *my* opinion. > Hmm... what's the ideal home-schooling computer? I want the kids to > own the computer, be able to learn languages (Pascal, C++, Forth, open to > suggestions, as well as Japanese, Russian, etc.), be able to do science > projects with it, be able to word-process but not necessarily spell-check, > be able to run good educational software. I'm already biased towards a Mac > Plus (and own one), but certainly ready for suggestions. NeXT? MicroVax > 3100? Cost, hardware and software, is a factor, of course. > I'm *hoping* this is an on-topic question, in as much as classic > computers are cheaper and simpler but demand more of the user to make work > properly and therefore make better learning tools than current machines; if > the answer is a new wintel box or a new iBook, I'd still like to hear it > but I'd like to hear it off-list. TIA, > - Mark > Well, I learned 90% of my computer science on a vax, so I tend to be biased toward VMS and vax pascal, but realistically I think I'd build a linux box and get the manuals for the various languages. I'd go with Pascal, C, and Lisp for languages, I think. Maybe BASIC if the children were pre-teens. It's easier for beginners to follow program flow when they have line numbers, IMHO. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 9 15:08:42 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <200003091823.TAA28162@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: > the orgin), but what is Ebonyx ? Name applied to stylized english spoken by some segments. > (No Offense Ment). In Ebonyx might translate to "no dissin yo" > of centuries, it took only some dozend years to go from > Machine code (grunting sounds) to ADA (Goethes Poems) > and only less than 10 years to fall back to C ? But you can write excellent Hiku in C. ;) Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 9 15:15:45 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <20000309180314.12737.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 9 Mar 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Up to that point verbs and nouns were > > more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools. > > This sentence no verb! :-) I spent five years working for a Japanese firm, NEC. Now I speak english well. I couldn't resist the temptation. Allison From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu Mar 9 15:20:31 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:03 2005 Subject: languages References: <000c01bf89e9$d507b2a0$0400c0a8@winbook> <3.0.1.16.20000309152057.31bf2bba@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <38C8159F.4C5F241C@cornell.edu> Joe wrote: > > Chris, > > Good explanation, you cleared identified a part of the problem but it's > not all the student's fault. An even worse problem is that the students are > taught by teachers that aren't any better educated than the students > they're teaching. We can thanks years of preferential college admissions > and hiring practices for that. Furthermore the quality of teachers as > declined steadily with the rise in power of the NEA and other teacher's > unions since most teacher's are more concerned about their income than in > teaching. Other factors such as the decision to teach in "native languages" > haven't helped either. Every part of the educational system is lowering > it's standards to accomodate the worst (insert your choice here; student, > teacher, school system, income, etc etc). And every part of the system is > failing to support the other parts. The whole educational system is in chaos. > > I wonder if the US is the only country that is having these kinds of > problems in it's "educational" system? Joe: to be fair, you also have to blame society at large here. You get what you pay for. Society has decided that teaching is a profession that requires one to be a college graduate, but that does not deserve a corresponding salary. As a result, only two kinds of people are attracted to it: Those who could not find a job in any other kind of occupation, and those that love teaching so much that they can take the low pay and all the crap that society lashes at them. So yes, some of them are pretty bad teachers. Others have the stature of heros in my mind. How did this state of affairs come to be? It really is the work of everyone. We know about teacher unions. We know about the general disdain for learning in youth today, partly induced by the media, but also by the attitudes of parents. What is missing is the lack of commitment of society to try to fix this. We cannot have better teachers unless we make it economically attractive to be one. What other profession is there with an entry salary of about $28K, and a top salary (after 20+ years) of less than $70K ? We cannot make teaching economically attractive and at the same time have tax cuts, no matter how hard our local politician tries to make us believe it. We, as voters, still show our naivete routinely when we choose to believe a politician who tells us that: (1) Teachers are at fault and should therefore be tested, but it is not necessary to raise their salary by 30% or more in order to make it comparable to that earned in other professions. (2) Students should be tested and failed if necessary, but the budget of the school should not be increased even if testing and repeating grades would cause student populations to soar, (3) We are not to blame; it is somebody else's fault. How can we possibly believe a guy like that? Isn't it obvious that he's using us for his own personal purposes? These guys are the norm rather than the exception, especially at a certain level and above. The greatest example of this bunch gathers at Capitol Hill. If we, as members of society, were deeply comitted to fixing the educational system, we would have to start by regarding education as a high value and showing it. We would bite the bullet and fund the (expensive) required programs to (1) bring back the status quo of the teaching profession, attracting better young people and improving the competency of teachers; (2) attain smaller class size; (3) There is no way around it. These simple and effective solutions are also the more costly. But they are the only ones that will work. However, I am a pessimist on this issue. I just do not see how society will accept the blame and get the implementations of the really constructive solutions started. Society is not mature enough at this point to do that. And the _big_ problem is, with worsening education, the society of the future will be less, not more, mature. -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Mar 9 15:33:41 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <200003091920.MAA07790@calico.litterbox.com> References: <200003091823.TAA28162@mail2.siemens.de> from "Hans Franke" at Mar 09, 2000 07:23:15 PM Message-ID: >> Well, throw-in-the-towel is known (at least the acording >> phrase is in wide use in Germany - just most don't know >> the orgin), but what is Ebonyx ? > >Ebonyx was the attempt by some boards of education in California to establish >the slang associated with Black culture as a language so they could get >funding >to teach english as a second language. It was always a brazen attempt to get >funding, nothing more. A good part was politics as well. It was NOT throwing in the towel, just the opposite they are seeking recognition of ebonics as a language so that teachers would not be allowed to "correct" students who used it in class. The idea was that it is better to allow a student through school speaking nothing but local slang than to damage their self esteem and racial pride by forcing them to learn english and use it. A telling point was the general refusal of the proponents to offer examples of ebonics as it would be used in a class setting. My guess is that it was an effort to eliminate all teachers without native ebonic speaking abilities. California has made the correct choice in dropping the whole english as a second language program in favor of english immersion. The sooner you learn english and become proficient, the better students do in general. This isn't to say that ebonics or any other cultural language doesn't have merit, but points out the peril of "too much" local control in a polical setting. This is like offering "creation" as an alternative to "Darwin", the problem being once you declare "God created the heavens and earth" you have branched off from the next 10 years of scientific education to a path that leads to what? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Mar 9 14:49:47 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Some may laugh but it was learning Pascal after years of assembler, >focal and Basics that helped improve my english as it was the first time >I got to see structure at work. Up to that point verbs and nouns were >more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools. PL1 helped me to speak Canadian, just replace the ";" at the end of each sentence with "eh". Unfortunately my skills proved insufficient to correctly order breakfast, but I was never formally arrested while in Canada. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Mar 9 15:38:30 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: PDP-11/05 with RX02 :-( Message-ID: <20000309213830.5324.qmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: John B. writes: > >I have a PDP-11/05... replace the RX01 system with an RX211 and an RX02... > To get to *real* basics: > > The RX11 is a programmed I/O device. The RX211 is (as usually used) a > DMA device. You'll probably have to remove the NPR continuity wire across > the slot when you put the RX211 in it, and ensure that this signal is > continuous up to that far too. I doubt you are short of double-height grant cards, but I have a wad of non-DEC ones because SRC used to ship our own with every Unibus COMBOARD. Let me know if you're interested. When I get my flatbed scanner back from loan, I'll add both of our designs to the "field guide". -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 9 15:26:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Mar 9, 0 02:05:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3968 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000309/d651ea90/attachment.ksh From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Mar 9 16:17:56 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > California has made the correct choice in dropping the whole english as a > second language program in favor of english immersion. The sooner you learn > english and become proficient, the better students do in general. This > isn't to say that ebonics or any other cultural language doesn't have > merit, but points out the peril of "too much" local control in a polical > setting. This is like offering "creation" as an alternative to "Darwin", > the problem being once you declare "God created the heavens and earth" you > have branched off from the next 10 years of scientific education to a path > that leads to what? I don't know...Canada (ok, I'm biased a little being Canadian) allows for official provincial languages outside of the national official languages, French and English. It's a neat system, which I think provides a lot of flexibility for subcultures to preserve their language/history. I'm definitely not one of the "Speak English or Get Out" crowd. As far as evolution/creation (oh boy, here we go), I think the problem with their original idea of teaching both disciplines fell short right at the place where they had to rectify the problem you mentioned, which simplifies to the question of where a "safe" re-entry point was in the continuum of Science for those who went apostate and chose Creationism over Darwinian Evolution... From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Mar 9 16:17:56 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: Kids computers In-Reply-To: References: <20000309180314.12737.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: For up to about 8 years old an Apple II is great. Lots of software free to download, and almost indistructible. Any older PC or mac for ages 7 to 10, or for the first year of computers at any age. Once they are through the basics though, figure on a fairly new system with a good graphics board. Run all the older software in emulation, plus surf the web and play games with decent speed. Any house without at least 5 networked computers and two printers is fairly deprived, my goal is about a dozen of different era's all talking etc. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Mar 9 16:32:09 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <38C8159F.4C5F241C@cornell.edu> References: <000c01bf89e9$d507b2a0$0400c0a8@winbook> <3.0.1.16.20000309152057.31bf2bba@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: >as a high value and showing it. We would bite the bullet and >fund the (expensive) required programs to Just hand me a voucher and let me pick the school my child goes to, and watch how fast schools "find a way" to improve and EARN my money. Increase their funding and watch it flow into the morass without even a ripple on the surface. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Mar 9 16:53:24 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: Kids computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just a quick note on this... I have a P200mmx set up for my kids, who are (the one's who are computing, anyway) almost 5 and 4 1/2 years old. I continually preview and install modern educational software for them (Reader Rabbit, Magic Schoolbus, etc) to keep them interested in it. I have to tell you that I almost feel guilty when I see them interacting with kids from their school who don't have computers at home; it really is such an unfair advantage. My kids, and their computing friends, spell, add, subtract, and do well with thinking games and puzzles...and the other kids, well...totally unfair. I think the whole thing (cobbled together from extra pieces) cost me a total of $500 with monitor, 32x cdrom, 4 meg Matrox card, 64megs ram, 2 gig HD, Soundblaster. For the results, I think it'd be worth 10 times that. My dime, Aaron On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > For up to about 8 years old an Apple II is great. Lots of software free to > download, and almost indistructible. > > Any older PC or mac for ages 7 to 10, or for the first year of computers at > any age. > > Once they are through the basics though, figure on a fairly new system with > a good graphics board. Run all the older software in emulation, plus surf > the web and play games with decent speed. > > Any house without at least 5 networked computers and two printers is fairly > deprived, my goal is about a dozen of different era's all talking etc. > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Mar 9 18:12:15 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: References: from "Mark Tapley" at Mar 9, 0 02:05:15 pm Message-ID: <200003092313.AAA17166@mail2.siemens.de> > 1) The Acorn BBC micro. Reasons : It's got an excellent structured BASIC > (which is easy to learn and get to do _something_ but also it's easy to > learn good programming habits in). It's got a lot of standard interfaces > (ADC, User port, RS423 (~=RS232), Centronics, 6502 Bus) to link to those > science ezperiments you mentioned. _Excellent_ manuals as well. > Actually, I think the BBC micro may well be the top educational computer > of all time, for all I encountered it after I'd learnt a considerable > amount about computing. > The downside (at least in the States) is that they're not easy to find > over there (UK ones, with PAL/625 line video outputs are very common over > here). I don't think there was ever a US machine with the above features, > though. The Apple ][ comes closest, probably, but the BASIC is not as > good, and you have to find/build plug-in cards for the interfaces. I have to support Tonys recomendation, well, within the US the A][ may be a better solution due the imense amount of available books and software, but it never reached the _constant_ quality of the BBCs documentation. PAL and 220V shouldn't be a real problem. if your using a RGB or Composite CRT, it will synchronise well - and if you realy want to use a TV set, any somewhat actual unit will switch automaticly - and the quality may be as good as an average Computer-CRT. I still belive the best learning documentation ever was done for the east German machines - designed to give you every skill and knowledge needed around computers - maybe not very fancy and not realy colorfull, but understandable, detailed and without any doubt the most complete. Well, just you need also a German course before reading - so I vote for the BBC or Apple. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Mar 9 18:12:16 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <200003092050.NAA08204@calico.litterbox.com> References: <200003091946.UAA23327@mail2.siemens.de> from "Hans Franke" at Mar 09, 2000 08:46:29 PM Message-ID: <200003092313.AAA17173@mail2.siemens.de> > *snip* > > Well, to late over here - Standard German has equalized most German > > languages and dialects. More than 100 years of Education did succeede. > I thought book mal (which I KNOW is spelled wrong, what little German spelling > I knew in undergrad school I've long since forgotten) was the standard for > education, but I didn't think there were laws requiring it. Are there? Maybe you're confusing the name with booksmal, the 'official' norwegian spelling/language ? Anyway, Standard German (Hochdeutsch) is defined as the language to be used in official (state) documents. The spepelling of this language is defined to be the standard spelling to be uese in any official corospodence (Not for the citicen, but to be used by the officer). All school education is using this language in all classes. TV and Radio programs are made in Standard German ... so society is converting - Well, the reasons are maybe logical and understandable, just I dislike them at all. As some of you may know, Germany had several mor or less succesfull confrontations with France, just, do you know what language the German Officers had to use for conferences and to clear orders ? German ? Wrong, even in the successfull 1870/71 war the language of the German commanders was french - otherwise a Leutnant from lets say Bavaria and one from Hanover would had a hard time to understand each other. Althrough all part of the German language family, close members, the difference is way deeper than lets say between American, Australien or English English. Maybe a bit like the Ebony thing. Or to use known languages, in the worst case (Bavarian vs. Platt) like between todays English and Dutch. Anyway, going back to your question: it's a soft force of standardisation rather a brute force today - it has been different in the past. Gruss H. BTW: Just curious - almost nobody is going on my remarks about C :) -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Mar 9 16:07:42 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: was :-( , now :-) Re: PDP-11/05 with RX02 :-( Message-ID: <001801bf8a13$e427f9a0$b228d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 2:54 PM Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 with RX02 :-( >> >> I can't find my book on the M8256 (RX211) so I don't know if the switches >> are set right. >> >> I have a PDP-11/05 here that works fine and boots up RT11 or XXDP on an RX01 >> with an RX11. When I replace the RX01 system with an RX211 and an RX02 and >> try and boot RT11 the CPU hangs up at: >> >> 173546 , run light on. Requires a full reset to clear. >> >> I have tried other RX211s, RX02s, and cables and the same problem occurs. >> >> The disk is being accessed for a little while (4 or 5 "clicks") and dies.... > >A few quick things to check : > >1) You are trying to boot an RX02 version of RT11, not an RX01. While the >RX02 can read/write RX01 disks, the RX211 and RX11 need rather different >software to drive them, so an RX02 can't _boot_ a bootable RX01 disk. > I know. I was trying RX02 RT11v4. BL >2) You've got the DIP switch in the RX02 (on the upper, controller, >board) set correctly. I'm pretty sure that how to set this is on the web >somewhere, but if you can't find anything (and nobody else beats me to >it), I'll try to find the fine manual. > I guess so. The RX02s are from LSI systems. >3) The RX211 is a DMA (NPR) device. You just said the magic words! I have never been blessed with a RX211 before (always big drives or RX01s). Many thanks for saving me hours of going through boxes to find out it was a NPR device. Thanks again. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com >You need to cut the jumper between >pins CA1 and CB1 on the backplane of the slot where the RX211 is >installed. That's the most likely problem if you've just pulled an RX11 >and replaced it by an RX211. > >-tony > > From spc at armigeron.com Thu Mar 9 17:42:43 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <200003092313.AAA17173@mail2.siemens.de> from "Hans Franke" at Mar 10, 2000 12:13:16 AM Message-ID: <200003092342.SAA12235@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Hans Franke once stated: > > BTW: Just curious - almost nobody is going on my remarks about C :) About it being a low level barely marginal language? No real argument there, other than I find it better than C++. -spc (And the less said about Perl, the better ... ) From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 9 17:57:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages Message-ID: <200003092357.SAA15541@world.std.com> <> projects with it, be able to word-process but not necessarily spell-check <> be able to run good educational software. I'm already biased towards a Ma <> Plus (and own one), but certainly ready for suggestions. NeXT? MicroVax <> 3100? Cost, hardware and software, is a factor, of course. Why only one box? Why not several each with it's attributes would induce a greater range of thinking. Also applying similar skills to different boxes teaches troubleshooting and similarity of use. The latter is funny as I had someone (an adult) today tell me their system had to have Word to write a memo as they didn't know how to use Write... Write is stripped down Word! Lazy! With the common classics like Apples, CPM crates and all you can get a lot of different things to investigate. If you can teach anything, teach them how to find out when the answer is not obvious or in the standard books. Learn how to use information sources, printed and electronic. Being able to figure it out is believe it or not a very valuable skill in this cookie cutter world. Allison From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Mar 9 18:10:04 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: Kids computers In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 02:17:56PM -0800 References: <20000309180314.12737.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000309191004.A27292@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 02:17:56PM -0800, Mike Ford wrote: > Once they are through the basics though, figure on a fairly new system with > a good graphics board. Run all the older software in emulation, plus surf > the web and play games with decent speed. Hmm, I think a *vital* factor for a machine which is truly intended to educate kids, is that it must be absolutely no use at playing video games. I'm not kidding, make 'em talk to it through an ASR33 if you have to, because once you lose them to video games they'll never be more than just users. I don't know who's going to be writing software in the future because I don't see the slightest inkling of the right kind of curiousity in any of the kids I know. Also, I know this is flame bait, but: I don't think it's *ever* too early to expose kids to assembly language. It's really frightening the way we have people these days who pass themselves off as "computer" programmers, but they don't actually know the first thing about computers. All they know is the foggy world that you get when you slather a veneer of C over everything. The kids in the C and Pascal courses I took in school had a really hard time grasping the concepts of pointers and structures, but everybody got it immediately when the same things were covered in assembly language class. I'm really glad I took that one first, the teacher was a maniac! Not that I hadn't done assembly language before, but he had us write a mini-editor and a mini-assembler and most of a Lisp interpreter and all kinds of other stuff, all in an 8-week summer session, it was wonderful... And all the HLL stuff was easy after that. John Wilson D Bit From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Mar 9 18:41:21 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: Kids computers In-Reply-To: <20000309191004.A27292@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 02:17:56PM -0800, Mike Ford wrote: > > Once they are through the basics though, figure on a fairly new system with > > a good graphics board. Run all the older software in emulation, plus surf > > the web and play games with decent speed. > > Hmm, I think a *vital* factor for a machine which is truly intended to > educate kids, is that it must be absolutely no use at playing video games. > I'm not kidding, make 'em talk to it through an ASR33 if you have to, because > once you lose them to video games they'll never be more than just users. I grew up on Asteroids, Pac Man, Kangaroo, Popeye, Tron, Zaxxon, Tempest...I mowed lawns so I'd have enough money to go the arcade with my friends. Somewhere in there was Pong, Oddysey, Intellivision, and Atari 2600. More than just a user, Aaron From at258 at osfn.org Thu Mar 9 19:11:37 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Now Allison, since, as you know, computers are simply enhanced word processors, the discussion is right on topic.... :) On Thu, 9 Mar 2000 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > An aside... > > I find this discussion interesting and agree with the demise of modern > language but, this is a great stretch from discussing classic computers. > > Of course if we drift into the structured language debate of the late 70s > we will all require asbestos/kevlar/ceramic britches. ;) > > Allison > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 9 19:12:12 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: Kids computers In-Reply-To: <20000309191004.A27292@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Mar 9, 0 07:10:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1869 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000310/d8d3eb37/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 9 19:19:57 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <200003092313.AAA17166@mail2.siemens.de> from "Hans Franke" at Mar 10, 0 00:13:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2506 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000310/7b1b2d3d/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 9 19:43:39 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages Message-ID: <001601bf8a32$0fcaa580$0400c0a8@winbook> Not so! The subject is compound, i.eVERBS and NOUNS (the conjuction AND makes it compound) the verb is WERE, and MORE is a predicate nominative, i.e. a substantive (any word functioning as a NOUN) with a role of modifying the subject. The preposition OF points to ABSTRACTION which modifies the predicate nominative. The past participle NEEDED modifies the term ABSTRACTION in its role as a modifier of MORE, which modifies the subjects. THAN compounds the modification by the preposition by providing a second object of the preposition OF, which further modifies the term ABSTRACTION by limiting it. Now, that's more detail than one normally needs to understand the lines in the daily paper's comics, but there are sentences, more likely to appear on the editorial page than in the sports section, which often deserve and too often require careful analysis prior to concluding one knows what's being said. You may disagree with that analysis, but it certainly does underscore that the quoted sentence is complete. It also serves as an example of the numerous devices about which current high-school graduates know nothing. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 12:14 PM Subject: Re: languages >allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >> Up to that point verbs and nouns were >> more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools. > >This sentence no verb! :-) From at258 at osfn.org Thu Mar 9 19:58:17 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <20000309160409.11995.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ah yes, I remember we used to look at each other and say "he knows" with a knowing smirk. We also used to mutter "volve" as a pejorative. On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > --- "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > > I do recall, though, that studying Latin did make things seem much > > easier to me, if only because the language forced organised thought. > > Ditto on the Latin - 4 years in High School. I think in my case, since > I had no decent formal training in English (my native language), learning > Latin grammar produced an understanding of English grammar. I do know > that learning Latin made it easier to learn Greek. I had an idea of > what sorts of phrases and subordinate clauses exist, and so knew to ask > how these concepts translated to Greek ("cum clauses", for example, or > the many uses of infinitives) > > > ...I learned the Church Latin pronunciation, which annoys everyone else, to > > my gratification... > > Ack! Heretic! :-) My Latin teacher told us a story of when _he_ went > to out High School in the 1960's - they learned Church Latin and it was > a supreme effort of will not to laugh when conjugating the present tense > of the verb "scio", to know. > > For the confused reader at home, it goes... "scio, scis, scit, scimus, > scistis, sciunt" and in Classical Latin C's are hard, giving us "skeeo, > skiss, skit...". Church Latin uses a soft C here, resulting in "sheeo, > shiss...". Try *that* in a room full of sophmores. > > -ethan > > P.S. - if I've messed up the full conjugation, my apologies; it's off the > top of my head, 18 years later. The nugget of the story, however, is accurate. > > > -ethan > > > ===== > Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to > vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com > > The original webpage address is still going away. The > permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ > > See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 9 20:02:38 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages Message-ID: <002101bf8a34$b6b7e220$0400c0a8@winbook> That assessment is quite correct! What's not so obvious, is that the fact that we have a special class of student, commonly known as "speakers of other languages" hence the term ESOL for Education for Speakers of Other Languages, is a federal-court-mandated effort to provide this somewhat nebulous group of pupils with an additional opprotunity to secure the education to which the constitution apparently entitles them. However, what's not so widely recognized is that this program has priority over mainstream classes. Consequently, as more kids' parents find a way to get their children so-classified, local school admistrators (most the principals) are forced to provide limited-size classes for the ESOL program. Since the mandate is not accompanied by any additional funding, the administrator has to take teachers from the mainstream classes and assign them to the ESOL program where class size is limited to 22 pupils per teacher rather than the more common 30-35 seen in mainstream classes. That's why so many people were so PI**ED about the "EBONYX" (as it was spelled in our local papers, though that doesn't make it correct, by any means) thing. This would have mandated that all users of that particular pseudo-language were entitled to smaller classes, i.e. more personal attention, than the mainstream. While I don't doubt for a moment that there might be potential for great benefit to those students qualifying for the smaller class-sizes, it's taking those resources from the already overstressed mainstream education program. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 12:38 PM Subject: Re: languages >> Well, throw-in-the-towel is known (at least the acording >> phrase is in wide use in Germany - just most don't know >> the orgin), but what is Ebonyx ? > >Ebonyx was the attempt by some boards of education in California to establish >the slang associated with Black culture as a language so they could get funding >to teach english as a second language. It was always a brazen attempt to get >funding, nothing more. > > >> >> And, Jim, for the Grammer ting, don't forget that English >> is a bastard based on (at least) 5 languages from 3 different >> language families (No Offense Ment). > >None taken. You're absolutely correct. English took much of its structure >from Norweigan, and much of its vocabulary from Norman French, and simplified >both. It picks up vocabulary from everywhere, and when that fails words are >simply made up. I'm thinking here of Scuba and Radar, wich both started out >as acronyms and are now ordinary nouns. > >*snip* > >> Serious, ain't we are going exactly the same way with >> programming languages as with real ones ? Just instead >> of centuries, it took only some dozend years to go from >> Machine code (grunting sounds) to ADA (Goethes Poems) > >*laugh* I'm not sure I'd compare any computer language to Goethe, but it's >a good analogy... > > >> and only less than 10 years to fall back to C ? >> >> Gruss >> H. > >I think Hans is making a bit of a joke here, but he's not far from the mark. >A living language is not a static thing. It grows. It evolves. Parts are >added and other parts dropped as the society that speaks it changes. Until >recently (ie the last 20 years or so) English was taught in a very prescriptive >way - x is the correct way to speak, where x is whatever dictionary and/or >grammar system you embrace. > >However in the late 60s (things take time to >filter into the education system) some language experts - notably Webster's >Dictionary among them - began to realise that language *changes* over time. >Websters dictionary embraced a descriptive philosophy - we're not in the >business of telling you how you SHOULD speak, only how you DO speak. > >One of the results of this was the formation of the American Heritage >dictionary, which clung to the prescriptive philosophy. > >Ultimately I think the descriptive folks are correct. While I agree with Dick >and others that as the English language is simplified it looses alot of its >elegance and beauty, I'd rather see that than the total stagnation that results >with rigid prescriptiveism. A great example of what happens to a language when >it is artificially prevented from changing is French. With the establishment >of the French Acadamy and the legislation against borrowings from other >languages, in a few hundred years French went from the language of diplomacy >to a linguistic backwater, populated with grotesque and awkward words created >to describe things where a borrowing had been previously used. > >None of this changes the fact that today's schools are doing a lousy job >teaching people to communicate. (In the US). One need only look at the web >to see this - US domains which are so cluttered and badly designed and where >the text is so obtuse and irrellivant that the entire page is useless abound. > >(Yes, in this graphical age, I think page layout should be taught alongside >some understanding of grammar and spelling). Schools are instead focusing on >self esteem building, instead of teaching and letting students develop self >esteem when they *succeed*. Obviously grinding a student's ego into the floor >every time they mess up is the wrong way to go about teaching anything, but >so is pushing self esteem above education. *sigh* If I had children, I would >definately feel ripped off by todays schools. > >Anyway, I've gone on much longer in this message than intended, but in addition >to hitting a nerve this thread also hit stuff I studied in college, so... :) > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! >----------------------------------------------------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 9 20:03:37 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages Message-ID: <002601bf8a34$d9626520$0400c0a8@winbook> That's not what is going on here! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 12:57 PM Subject: Re: languages >> >> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >> > Up to that point verbs and nouns were >> > more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools. >> >> This sentence no verb! :-) > >Erm. Hmm. You can construe that sentance to have a verb, but it doesn't >make any sense if you do. :) Verb, the word, has become a verb of late. >To verb another word, you make it into a verb. So if you verb verb (ugh) >you're saying your sentance doesn't verb. (double ugh). :) > >Now you've done it. You've got me playing word games. :) > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! >----------------------------------------------------------------------- From at258 at osfn.org Thu Mar 9 20:05:30 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages (Ebonics) In-Reply-To: <20000309105538.A2135@loomcom.com> Message-ID: It's still dialectical, however, like Gullah, and inappropriate as a basis for standard English. Further, use of the dialect effectively condemns the user to a lower socio-economic status, which seems very unfair. Upward mobility is usually preceded by change in language to that of the upper group. It almost seemed like the Ebonics movement was determined to keep the poor in their place. On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, sjm wrote: > > > I think that trend to continue as long as social activists try to promote > > gibberish as language, as the ebonics debacle. > > I hate to be pedantic, but "Ebonics" really is called Black English > Vernacular (BEV) by linguists, and has been a recognized form of > spoken english by linguists for at least 30 years. It was made most > famous in Linguistics circles by William Lebov's paper "Language > in the inner city: studies in the Black English Vernacular" in 1972. > > BEV follows strict rules of grammar and word use, and has syntactic > roots in several major west African languages like Ewe, Iwo, > and Yoruba. It really is not gibberish at all, no matter how > "wrong" it sounds to a native Standard American English speaker > (me included). In some ways, it actually allows much finer grained > shades of meaning than SAE does. In some ways, less. That's how > different languages work. But the fact that it follows a definable > complex grammar can't be debated, it's been studied to death by > linguists everywhere. > > How the Oakland School Board was using BEV for its own purposes is > an entirely different matter which I won't even begin to touch on. > That's politics, not language. > > For a real thrill, try finding information on the dialect of English > spoken on Ocracoke Island in North Carolina. Although it's dying out > now, there still remain a few native inhabitants of the island who > can speak it. They were mainly descended from Scottish immigrants > who were more or less entirely cut off from the mainland when > shipping lanes changed in the 18th century, and left to develop > their own dialect and speech rules over the course of the next two > hundred years. > > (Yes, I was a linguistics major. No, I haven't done anything useful > with it. That's why I'm a programmer now.) > > -Seth > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 9 20:15:26 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages Message-ID: <002b01bf8a36$80660560$0400c0a8@winbook> There's a reason for the old saw, "Those who can, do, while those who can't, teach." The typical teacher candidate graduated in the bottom third of his/her high school class, went to a clearly second-or-third-rate college and did poorly there. Because of the emphasis on "diversity" there has been a preference for minority candidates who relied on waivers of the customary standards to get into and through the usual educational programs, then relied on minority preferences to get past the hiring standards, and lastly, now rely on the system's unwillingness to take negative action agains a member of an ethnic minority to keep them on until they attain tenure, after which they'll do what they like, regardless. In my years on school committees I saw plenty of hoops being jumped-through by administration to meet their requirements without violating the various restrictions imposed on them by the various ethnic and cultural programs imposed from without. Unfortunately, as more of these administrators come from minority cultures, other problems begin to surface. In the middle school attended by both my boys, there was a principal who used federal money as a justification to bring "troubled" (meaning criminal) youngsters from other districts in with the "hope" of giving them another chance. Several of us on the steering committees tried to put an end to this, as it seemed to result in disproportionately high incident rates involving ethinically charged circumstances. I surely hope this is just evidence that the pendulum's swung too far in one direction. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 12:38 PM Subject: Re: languages >Chris, > >Good explanation, you cleared identified a part of the problem but it's >not all the student's fault. An even worse problem is that the students are >taught by teachers that aren't any better educated than the students >they're teaching. We can thanks years of preferential college admissions >and hiring practices for that. Furthermore the quality of teachers as >declined steadily with the rise in power of the NEA and other teacher's >unions since most teacher's are more concerned about their income than in >teaching. Other factors such as the decision to teach in "native languages" >haven't helped either. Every part of the educational system is lowering >it's standards to accomodate the worst (insert your choice here; student, >teacher, school system, income, etc etc). And every part of the system is >failing to support the other parts. The whole educational system is in chaos. > > I wonder if the US is the only country that is having these kinds of >problems in it's "educational" system? > > Joe > >At 09:57 AM 3/9/00 -0800, Chris wrote: >>Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >>[Stuff deleted] >> >>> I think the reason our kids don't learn languages well is because the tools >>> that should have been taught with English, >> >>[more stuff deleted] >> >>I recently had the sad task of judging science fair projects from three local >>high schools. It was pathetic. Since this thread is about language skills >>I'll ignore for the moment the more or less complete lack of understanding >>of the scientific method and the extensive use of crayons in constructing >>the presentations and focus on the stellar language skills that were almost >>uniformly present across all of the entries. >> >>The short form summary is that if I'd written in the fashion of these high >>school students when I was in second grade I'd have been taken out and shot. >>Certainly there were large collections of words, some of them polysyllabic, >>but in general they were not arranged into anything that was parsable as >>an english sentence. Written materials depended on spelling correctors >>to eliminate spelling errors, sometimes with frightening yet amusing >>consequences ("...our science fairy teacher..."). >> >>There were a few entries which were clever, well constructed, well executed >>and innovative. Talking with the instructors I learned that these were >>from the bright but bored students who twiddle their thumbs while their >>neanderthal classmates struggled with basic coursework (in California the >>instructional system is geared to address the needs of the lowest common >>denominator; resources are generally not available for exceptional >>students). The entry judged Best of Show was constructed by one such >>student in a few hours on the day immediately preceding the judging. >> >>> It's a sad situation. >> >>It's beyond sad. It's criminal. >> >>FWIW, California is now going to start imposing financial penalties upon >>high schools whose students do not perform at some minimal level. The >>problem, of course, is that the students are already lacking fundamental >>skills that they should have received at the elementary level, thus >>penalizing the high schools is not going to fix the problem. Rather, it >>will cause even more resources to be diverted to already unsalvageable >>students while penalizing those who actually have a chance to do something >>useful with their lives. >> >>*Grumble*, >>Chris >>-- >>Chris Kennedy >>chris@mainecoon.com >>http://www.mainecoon.com >>PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 >> > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 9 20:21:38 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages (Ebonics) Message-ID: <003601bf8a37$5e223e00$0400c0a8@winbook> There are a few characteristics, not necessarily ones of which the Black community is proud, which certainly are traceable to one-time African tribal culture. A few moments with a stack of police blotters will show that there's a really noticeable tendency among Hispanics to "burgle" outside their own community, while it appears quite common that a Black man will steal his neighbor's TV-set, only to invite the victim and his family to come over to watch the game at his house. I've read/heard that this is traceable to ancient and still-practiced custom in various west African cultures. However, I'd not recommend doing that in THIS society. That tendency to ignore the realities of life within the present culture, both legal and ethnic, is purported to have arisen as a defense against burglary charges on more than one occasion. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Wilson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 1:13 PM Subject: Re: languages (Ebonics) >On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 10:55:38AM -0800, sjm wrote: >> BEV follows strict rules of grammar and word use, and has syntactic >> roots in several major west African languages like Ewe, Iwo, >> and Yoruba. It really is not gibberish at all, no matter how >> "wrong" it sounds to a native Standard American English speaker >> (me included). In some ways, it actually allows much finer grained >> shades of meaning than SAE does. > >I'd love to see an example of this! What really catches my attention is >when someone begins a sentence with "know what I'm saying?", there's a lot >of stuff like that that's really annoyingly meaningless. Also I'm not >sure how much can really be traced to Africa, since a lot of this stuff >really seems to have only cropped up in the past few generations. Ahhhh, >what ever happened to Jive? Now *that* was fun to listen to! Ehh, I mean, >that was a thing to which it was fun to listen. Never mind... > >John Wilson >D Bit From a2k at one.net Thu Mar 9 20:29:03 2000 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: Display phone? Re: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000210135933.48efda7e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: I know it's an old post, but I'm just now getting a chance to read my mail. I have one of these nifty little things but it seems fried... No longer the chirp when you plug it in, no display... any ideas? Kevin On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Joe wrote: > > Bill, That sounds like a Northern Telcom Display phone. I've got two of > them, they're pretty neat. > > Joe > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 9 20:33:17 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages Message-ID: <004101bf8a38$feeb5320$0400c0a8@winbook> You're right in that the dictionary has the task of letting everyone know how the language IS spoken. It's also the schools' job to teach the kids in school how people DO speak, so they can do so well enough to hold their own, rather than having to be supported by the government. I believe this last part has been largely forgotten. Studies have shown that average graduates from high schools throughout the U.S. are quite incapable of reading a descriptive article and concluding even the basics about what was written. Unfortunately, it is not fair to expect these same graduates to write better than they can read and comprehend. There's why our system is failing. I can't hand a young college graduate a data book and expect him to figure out what a given device does and how it does it. Consequently, I can't use current graduates at all. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 1:22 PM Subject: Re: languages >> > Well, throw-in-the-towel is known (at least the acording >> > phrase is in wide use in Germany - just most don't know >> > the orgin), but what is Ebonyx ? > >> Ebonyx was the attempt by some boards of education in California to establish >> the slang associated with Black culture as a language so they could get funding >> to teach english as a second language. It was always a brazen attempt to get >> funding, nothing more. > >:)) > >> > Serious, ain't we are going exactly the same way with >> > programming languages as with real ones ? Just instead >> > of centuries, it took only some dozend years to go from >> > Machine code (grunting sounds) to ADA (Goethes Poems) >> *laugh* I'm not sure I'd compare any computer language to Goethe, but it's >> a good analogy... >:) > >> > and only less than 10 years to fall back to C ? > >> I think Hans is making a bit of a joke here, but he's not far from the mark. >> A living language is not a static thing. It grows. It evolves. Parts are >> added and other parts dropped as the society that speaks it changes. Until >> recently (ie the last 20 years or so) English was taught in a very prescriptive >> way - x is the correct way to speak, where x is whatever dictionary and/or >> grammar system you embrace. > >No, I'm bloody serious (beside some humorous thing). In my opinion >C (and C++) is way down the ladder and as more as I think about I >find it more and more similar to the 'real' language thing discussed >in here. > >I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the >sense of degeneration. > >I often think about what happened - why are all other languages >out classed ? Some beauty(and use)full are almost forgotten. >What happened to Pascal, Modula or Smalltalk (not to talk about >ADA which I still consider the best design ever) ? > >There's only C (no, I don't recognize C++ or Java on their own). >And interestingly a still existing COBOL population. > >> However in the late 60s (things take time to >> filter into the education system) some language experts - notably Webster's >> Dictionary among them - began to realise that language *changes* over time. >> Websters dictionary embraced a descriptive philosophy - we're not in the >> business of telling you how you SHOULD speak, only how you DO speak. > >> One of the results of this was the formation of the American Heritage >> dictionary, which clung to the prescriptive philosophy. > >Well, to late over here - Standard German has equalized most German >languages and dialects. More than 100 years of Education did succeede. > >Anyway >H. > >-- >VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen >http://www.vintage.org/vcfe >http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Mar 9 20:37:13 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: Kids computers In-Reply-To: ; from af-list@wfi-inc.com on Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 04:41:21PM -0800 References: <20000309191004.A27292@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000309213713.A27616@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 04:41:21PM -0800, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > I grew up on Asteroids, Pac Man, Kangaroo, Popeye, Tron, Zaxxon, > Tempest...I mowed lawns so I'd have enough money to go the arcade with my > friends. Somewhere in there was Pong, Oddysey, Intellivision, and Atari > 2600. OK me too (only a little earlier I guess), but I think real arcade games are a little different, since they don't distract you from the other uses the machine could have -- they're the *only* use for that machine. My point is, if you give an average kid a choice between using their home computer for boring nerd projects or using it to shoot bad guys, forget it! It's as bad as drugs or cigarettes, if you try to stop them they'll sneak down at night to play with the thing behind your back. Playing games at an arcade but not at home might actually be a *positive* thing, since it gives the kid some motivation to try to learn how to program the home computer to do the same fun stuff as the arcade games, w/o costing the kid so much money. Which is a good way to get them going, unless they've been spoiled to the point that they don't appreciate the value of money and they're perfectly happy blowing their huge allowances at the arcade. John Wilson D Bit From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Mar 9 20:44:29 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages (Ebonics) In-Reply-To: <20000309145552.A26512@dbit.dbit.com>; from wilson@dbit.dbit.com on Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 02:55:52PM -0500 References: <001c01bf8984$94a9af20$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000309105538.A2135@loomcom.com> <20000309145552.A26512@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000309184429.A4535@loomcom.com> On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 02:55:52PM -0500, John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 10:55:38AM -0800, sjm wrote: > > BEV follows strict rules of grammar and word use, and has syntactic > > roots in several major west African languages like Ewe, Iwo, > > and Yoruba. It really is not gibberish at all, no matter how > > "wrong" it sounds to a native Standard American English speaker > > (me included). In some ways, it actually allows much finer grained > > shades of meaning than SAE does. > > I'd love to see an example of this! Sure thing. I'll cheaply cop-out and quote directly from Steven Pinker's excellent work for the layman "The Language Instinct" (Pinker, 1994, pp. 29-31) [Please note that there's some potentially offensive language below. Any typos are mine alone]: Here is an example, from an interview conducted by the linguist William Labov on a stoop in Harlem. The interviewee is Larry, the roughest member of a teenage gang called the Jets. (Labov observed in his scholarly article that "for most readers of this paper, first contact with Larry would produce some fairly negative reactions on both sides.") You know, like some people say if you're good an' shit, your spirit goin' t'heaven ... 'n' if you bad, your spirit goin' to hell. Well, bullshit! Your spirit goin' to hell anyway, good or bad. [Why?] Why? I'll tell you why. 'Cause, you see, doesn' nobody really know that it's a God, y'know, 'cause I mean I have seen black gods, white gods, all color gods, and don't knobody know it's really a God. An' when they be sayin' if you good, you goin' t'heaven, tha's bullshit, 'cause you ain't goin' to no heaven, 'cause it ain't no heaven for you to go to. [...jus' suppose that there is a God, would he be white or black?] He'd be white, man. [Why?] Why? I'll tell you why. 'Cause the average whitey out here got everything, you dig? And the nigger ain't got shit, y'know? Y'understan'? So -- um -- for -- in order for *that* to happen, you know it ain't no black God that's doin' that bullshit. First contact with Larry's grammar may produce negative reactions as well, but to a linguist it punctiliously conforms to the rules of the dialect called Black English Vernacular (BEV). The most linguistically interesting thing about the dialect is how linguistically uninteresting it is: if Labov did not have to call attention to it to debunk the claim that ghetto children lack true linguistic competence, it would have been filed away as just another language. Where Standard American English (SAE) uses "there" as a meaningless dummy subject for the copula, BEV uses "it" as a meaningless dummy subject for the copula (compare SAE's "There's really a God" with Larry's "It's really a God"). Larry's negative concord ("You ain't goin' to no heaven") is seen in many languages, such as French ("ne ... pas"). Like speakers of SAE, Larry inverts subjects and auxiliaries in nondeclarative sentences, but the exact set of the sentence types allowing inversion differs slightly. Larry and other BEV speakers invert subjects and auxiliaries in negative main clauses like "Don't nobody know"; SAE speakers invert them only in questions like "Doesn't anybody know?" and a few other sentence types. BEV allows its speakers the option of deleting copulas ("If you bad"); this is not random laziness but a systematic rule that is virtually identical to the contraction rule in SAE that reduces "He is" to "He's", "You are" to "You're", and "I am" to "I'm". In both dialects, "be" can erode only in certain kinds of sentences. No SAE speaker would try the following contractions: Yes he is! --> Yes he's! I don't care what you are. --> I don't care what you're. Who is it? --> Who's it? For the same reasons, no BEV speaker would try the following deletions: Yes he is! --> Yes he! I don't care what you are. --> I don't care what you. Who is it? --> Who it? Note, too, that BEV speakers are not just more prone to eroding words. BEV speakers use the full forms of certain auxiliaries ("I have seen"), whereas SAE speakers usually contract them ("I've seen"). And as we would expect from comparisons between languages, there are areas in which BEV is more precise than standard English. "He be working" means that he generally works, perhaps that he has a regular job; "He working" means only that he is working at the moment that the sentence is uttered. In SAE, "He is working" fails to make that distinction. [...] Another project of Labov's involved tabulating the percentage of grammatical sentences in tape recordings of speech in a variety of social classes and social settings. "Grammatical," for these purposes, means "well-formed according to consistent rules in the dialect of the speakers." For example, if a speaker asked the question "Where are you going?", the respondent would not be penalized for answering "To the store", even though it is in some sense not a complete sentence. Such ellipses are obviously part of the grammer of conversational English; the alternative, "I am going to the store", sounds stilted and is almost never used. "Ungrammatical" sentences, by this definition, include randomly broken-off sentence fragments, tongue-tied hemming and hawing, slips of the tongue, and other forms of word salad. The results of Labov's tabulation are enlightening. The great majority of sentences were grammatical, especially in casual speech, with higher percentages of grammatical sentences in working-class speech than in middle-class speech. The highest percentage of ungrammatical sentences was found in the proceedings of learned academic conferences. For those on the list who are at all interested in linguistics, this is a fabulous book. It's still in print and fairly easy to find. Steven Pinker is quite highly regarded among linguists for being able to explain linguistic concepts in regular ol' speech. -Seth -- "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Mar 9 21:00:44 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages (Ebonics) In-Reply-To: from "Merle K. Peirce" at "Mar 9, 0 09:05:30 pm" Message-ID: <200003100300.TAA16978@oa.ptloma.edu> ::It's still dialectical, however, like Gullah, and inappropriate as a ::basis for standard English. Further, use of the dialect effectively ::condemns the user to a lower socio-economic status, which seems very unfair. ::Upward mobility is usually preceded by change in language to that of the ::upper group. It almost seemed like the Ebonics movement was determined ::to keep the poor in their place. Since my degree actually happens to be linguistics ... BEV/Ebonics is considered a valid dialect, and the rules of it are documented. Where linguistics makes no comment is the appropriateness or social applicability, or even correctness. If people say it and other people understand it, then it's grammatical. Anyone who says otherwise is William F. Buckley, Jr. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- It's not enough to be Hungarian. You must have talent too. -- Alex Korda --- From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Mar 9 21:38:51 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <200003092313.AAA17173@mail2.siemens.de> from "Hans Franke" at Mar 10, 2000 12:13:16 AM Message-ID: <200003100338.UAA09611@calico.litterbox.com> > > > *snip* > > > Well, to late over here - Standard German has equalized most German > > > languages and dialects. More than 100 years of Education did succeede. > > > I thought book mal (which I KNOW is spelled wrong, what little German spelling > > I knew in undergrad school I've long since forgotten) was the standard for > > education, but I didn't think there were laws requiring it. Are there? > > Maybe you're confusing the name with booksmal, the > 'official' norwegian spelling/language ? Anyway, Yeek. I think that's exactly what I did. I took Norsk the semester after I took German and now, 10+ years down the road, they're all mushed together, since I never spoke either one beyond the most rudamentry level. > Standard German (Hochdeutsch) is defined as the > language to be used in official (state) documents. > The spepelling of this language is defined to be the > standard spelling to be uese in any official corospodence > (Not for the citicen, but to be used by the officer). > All school education is using this language in all > classes. TV and Radio programs are made in Standard > German ... so society is converting - Well, the reasons > are maybe logical and understandable, just I dislike > them at all. As some of you may know, Germany had > several mor or less succesfull confrontations with > France, just, do you know what language the German > Officers had to use for conferences and to clear > orders ? German ? Wrong, even in the successfull > 1870/71 war the language of the German commanders > was french - otherwise a Leutnant from lets say > Bavaria and one from Hanover would had a hard time > to understand each other. Althrough all part of the > German language family, close members, the difference > is way deeper than lets say between American, Australien > or English English. Maybe a bit like the Ebony thing. > Or to use known languages, in the worst case (Bavarian > vs. Platt) like between todays English and Dutch. > > Anyway, going back to your question: it's a soft > force of standardisation rather a brute force today - > it has been different in the past. > > Gruss > H. > > BTW: Just curious - almost nobody is going on my remarks about C :) > > -- > VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen > http://www.vintage.org/vcfe > http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From a2k at one.net Thu Mar 9 21:39:21 2000 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. Hey, come on, dumpster diving is fun! Most of the time I find nothing, but the few times that I do, it's all worth it. AFA hazards, I'm exposed to much more hazardous things daily. Chemical hazards: In the darkroom: Hydroquinone (fatal at 1 tsp), acetic acid, sulphuric acid. When I'm mixing the stop, it's 28% acetic acid. (Same stuff as vinegar, but what you buy for food is normally about 5%). Cyanide. Bleach. 6 molar HCl in Chemistry all the time. Other: Possible interactions and side effects with medications I take daily. An unexpected athsma attack. Staticmasters (Negative cleaning brush with radioactive strip embedded in the bottom.) Asbestos fire curtains and pipe insulations all over my school. Yes, it is cracked and dust falls off all the time. Why? Because Milford is trash. No one cares. Not to mention driving, falling down the stairs, choking on the caffinated peppermints I eat as soon as I wake up... so climbing into a dumpster is really the least of my worries. The neatest things I've found (but was unable to take because of size): Centrifuge (the size of a washing machine) Non-functioning SEM (!!) [Yes, really a scanning electron microscope] Associated non-functioning control computers and frame grabber Kept: An entire garbage bag full of 3.5" floppies (I'm still going off of that.. about 3 years ago) Silent 700 Tons of misc. stuff And so on. But it's really exciting to see what you might find in your local inconspicuous dumpster! Kevin From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 9 22:10:50 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages Message-ID: <002001bf8a46$9f880aa0$0400c0a8@winbook> The concept of immersion makes sense to me. I came to the U.S. in '52 with nary a word of English under my belt. I was admitted to the local school system in first grade, regular classes, with no interpreter anywhere in the building. That was PS49 in the New York school system. I was later moved to PS20 where even fewer folks spoke German fluently. Within 6 weeks my performance was improving to such extent that my language skills were to a state in which they were not perceived by the teachers to be an impediment. It didn't hurt that there were lots of Yiddish-speaking merchants in the neighborhoods through which I walked to and from school. Yiddish is quite similar to German and certainly makes conversation easier. Note that I said it took 6 weeks to "catch on" and not the seven or eight years it typically takes here with the ESL/ESOL programs. If a person has no reasonable alternative, particularly if that person's young and flexible, and not fet a bunch of SH*T from the community and from the government, he/she can learn enough to get by in school, which is more than what's needed to "get by" in life. I think it's the motivation, not the age, though. If an adult is motivated to communicate effectively, the road isn't long, though it may be harder than for a kid. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, March 09, 2000 3:52 PM Subject: Re: languages > > >On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >> California has made the correct choice in dropping the whole english as a >> second language program in favor of english immersion. The sooner you learn >> english and become proficient, the better students do in general. This >> isn't to say that ebonics or any other cultural language doesn't have >> merit, but points out the peril of "too much" local control in a polical >> setting. This is like offering "creation" as an alternative to "Darwin", >> the problem being once you declare "God created the heavens and earth" you >> have branched off from the next 10 years of scientific education to a path >> that leads to what? > >I don't know...Canada (ok, I'm biased a little being Canadian) allows for >official provincial languages outside of the national official languages, >French and English. It's a neat system, which I think provides a lot of >flexibility for subcultures to preserve their language/history. I'm >definitely not one of the "Speak English or Get Out" crowd. > >As far as evolution/creation (oh boy, here we go), I think the problem >with their original idea of teaching both disciplines fell short right at >the place where they had to rectify the problem you mentioned, which >simplifies to the question of where a "safe" re-entry point was in the >continuum of Science for those who went apostate and chose Creationism >over Darwinian Evolution... > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 9 22:32:25 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: from "LordTyran" at Mar 09, 2000 10:39:21 PM Message-ID: <200003100432.UAA13000@shell1.aracnet.com> Hmmm, thought this thread long dead. > Non-functioning SEM (!!) [Yes, really a scanning electron microscope] You know I've actually got pieces of one of these. Well, not the electron microscope, as that's still at the College I got the stuff from, but the computer that used to control it. In fact my PDP-11/73 is named after it. That's right it was controlled by a PDP-11. Can't imagine *anyone* throwing an electron microscope in the dumpster though. Zane From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 9 21:35:00 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages Message-ID: <200003100335.WAA26454@world.std.com> > Up to that point verbs and nouns were >> more of an abstraction needed to pass tests than working tools. > >This sentence no verb! :-) I only wrote the first one. Allison From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Mar 9 23:21:19 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: The C programming language Message-ID: <64.e78897.25f9e04f@aol.com> In a message dated 03/09/2000 3:19:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de writes: > I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the > sense of degeneration. Hey, Hans, I don't get this. C is the most versatile, flexible, and portable language ever devised. It permits complete control of hardware while at the same time allowing elegance in program design and structure. Can ADA match that? Glen Goodwin 0/0 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Mar 10 02:07:50 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: The C programming language References: <64.e78897.25f9e04f@aol.com> Message-ID: <009e01bf8a67$c7cc9000$fd81a7ca@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 3:51 PM Subject: Re: The C programming language > In a message dated 03/09/2000 3:19:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de writes: > > > I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the > > sense of degeneration. > > Hey, Hans, I don't get this. C is the most versatile, flexible, and portable > language ever devised. It permits complete control of hardware while at the > same time allowing elegance in program design and structure. You forgot to add "and is perfectly comprehensible to anyone with long experience in assembly language or machine code." That's it's big problem. I can look at something in Turbo Pascal and make sense of it. It even made some sense to me before I read the manuals. I was able (and still do occasionally) write useful stuff in it. I'm still trying to figure out C, it seems nearly impossible to learn without someone knowledgeable to teach you. It may be powerful, but if that's the only consideration, assembler is even more powerful. I don't have any Uni level CS under my belt, and that seems to be what's needed to comprehend it. Cheers Geoff Roberts Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From mranalog at home.com Fri Mar 10 04:08:25 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: Looking for an old journal article Message-ID: <38C8C999.A0007648@home.com> Hi, I've been using the used book search engines for the last year, searching for an old journal article. Afraid that I may never find the article, I decided to ask for help. I'm hoping that one of you living in the U.K. might have access to a library that has a good collection of back issues of "Memoirs and Proceedings of the Manchester Literary and Philosophical Society". The article is "The Construction of a Model Differential Analyser" by D.R. Hartree and A. Porter in the July 1935 issue. If you think you can help me obtain a copy, contact me and let's work out a trade. FOR THE TRULY AMBITIOUS COLLECTORS: I just thought I would mention this since some people on this list are interested in missle guidance computers. While searching for information on the 1911 Bristol Boxkite, I came across the web page for the Bristol Aero Collection, Cirencester, England. On their "Items available for disposal" page: http://www.chew46.freeserve.co.uk/aeroswap.html they list: "GAF Ikara anti-submarine missile: A number of complete missiles is available, without launcher." The page also states "The Bristol Aero Collection conforms to the rules of the UK Museum's Council and can dispose of historic items only to "Good Homes" such as Museums operating under comparable rules." In a separate search, I found this description of a Ikara: Australian ship-launched anti-submarine missile with a 12.5 nm range that employs a two-stage solid fuel motor and navigates via command guidance and an autopilot. The Aerospace Technologies of Australia, Pty., Ltd.-built Ikara is 11 ft long with a wingspan of 5 ft and weighs 980 lbs at takeoff. Happy Hunting, --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Mar 10 04:39:09 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: The C programming language In-Reply-To: <64.e78897.25f9e04f@aol.com> Message-ID: >In a message dated 03/09/2000 3:19:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, >Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de writes: > >> I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the >> sense of degeneration. > >Hey, Hans, I don't get this. C is the most versatile, flexible, and portable >language ever devised. It permits complete control of hardware while at the >same time allowing elegance in program design and structure. The key word here is "allowing" not requiring. The obfuscated C code contest kind of invented itself. From at258 at osfn.org Fri Mar 10 07:19:04 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages (Ebonics) In-Reply-To: <20000309184429.A4535@loomcom.com> Message-ID: I really liked that citation, Seth. The point on academic language is well taken, too. It seems most anthropoly text writers have more in common with BEV than Standard English and I've seen some truly terrible texts on cinema, too. On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, sjm wrote: > On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 02:55:52PM -0500, John Wilson wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 09, 2000 at 10:55:38AM -0800, sjm wrote: > > > BEV follows strict rules of grammar and word use, and has syntactic > > > roots in several major west African languages like Ewe, Iwo, > > > and Yoruba. It really is not gibberish at all, no matter how > > > "wrong" it sounds to a native Standard American English speaker > > > (me included). In some ways, it actually allows much finer grained > > > shades of meaning than SAE does. > > > > I'd love to see an example of this! > > Sure thing. I'll cheaply cop-out and quote directly from Steven > Pinker's excellent work for the layman "The Language Instinct" (Pinker, > 1994, pp. 29-31) [Please note that there's some potentially offensive > language below. Any typos are mine alone]: > > Here is an example, from an interview conducted by the > linguist William Labov on a stoop in Harlem. The interviewee > is Larry, the roughest member of a teenage gang called > the Jets. (Labov observed in his scholarly article that > "for most readers of this paper, first contact with Larry > would produce some fairly negative reactions on both sides.") > > You know, like some people say if you're good an' > shit, your spirit goin' t'heaven ... 'n' if you > bad, your spirit goin' to hell. Well, bullshit! > Your spirit goin' to hell anyway, good or bad. > > [Why?] > > Why? I'll tell you why. 'Cause, you see, doesn' > nobody really know that it's a God, y'know, 'cause > I mean I have seen black gods, white gods, all color > gods, and don't knobody know it's really a God. An' > when they be sayin' if you good, you goin' t'heaven, > tha's bullshit, 'cause you ain't goin' to no heaven, > 'cause it ain't no heaven for you to go to. > > [...jus' suppose that there is a God, would he be > white or black?] > > He'd be white, man. > > [Why?] > > Why? I'll tell you why. 'Cause the average whitey > out here got everything, you dig? And the nigger > ain't got shit, y'know? Y'understan'? So -- um -- > for -- in order for *that* to happen, you know it > ain't no black God that's doin' that bullshit. > > First contact with Larry's grammar may produce negative > reactions as well, but to a linguist it punctiliously > conforms to the rules of the dialect called Black English > Vernacular (BEV). The most linguistically interesting thing > about the dialect is how linguistically uninteresting it is: > if Labov did not have to call attention to it to debunk the > claim that ghetto children lack true linguistic competence, > it would have been filed away as just another language. > Where Standard American English (SAE) uses "there" as a > meaningless dummy subject for the copula, BEV uses "it" as > a meaningless dummy subject for the copula (compare SAE's > "There's really a God" with Larry's "It's really a God"). > Larry's negative concord ("You ain't goin' to no heaven") is > seen in many languages, such as French ("ne ... pas"). Like > speakers of SAE, Larry inverts subjects and auxiliaries in > nondeclarative sentences, but the exact set of the sentence > types allowing inversion differs slightly. Larry and other > BEV speakers invert subjects and auxiliaries in negative main > clauses like "Don't nobody know"; SAE speakers invert them > only in questions like "Doesn't anybody know?" and a few > other sentence types. BEV allows its speakers the option > of deleting copulas ("If you bad"); this is not random > laziness but a systematic rule that is virtually identical > to the contraction rule in SAE that reduces "He is" to > "He's", "You are" to "You're", and "I am" to "I'm". In both > dialects, "be" can erode only in certain kinds of sentences. > No SAE speaker would try the following contractions: > > Yes he is! --> Yes he's! > I don't care what you are. --> I don't care what you're. > Who is it? --> Who's it? > > For the same reasons, no BEV speaker would try the following > deletions: > > Yes he is! --> Yes he! > I don't care what you are. --> I don't care what you. > Who is it? --> Who it? > > Note, too, that BEV speakers are not just more prone to > eroding words. BEV speakers use the full forms of certain > auxiliaries ("I have seen"), whereas SAE speakers usually > contract them ("I've seen"). And as we would expect from > comparisons between languages, there are areas in which BEV > is more precise than standard English. "He be working" means > that he generally works, perhaps that he has a regular job; > "He working" means only that he is working at the moment > that the sentence is uttered. In SAE, "He is working" > fails to make that distinction. > > [...] > > Another project of Labov's involved tabulating the > percentage of grammatical sentences in tape recordings of > speech in a variety of social classes and social settings. > "Grammatical," for these purposes, means "well-formed > according to consistent rules in the dialect of the > speakers." For example, if a speaker asked the question > "Where are you going?", the respondent would not be penalized > for answering "To the store", even though it is in some sense > not a complete sentence. Such ellipses are obviously part > of the grammer of conversational English; the alternative, > "I am going to the store", sounds stilted and is almost never > used. "Ungrammatical" sentences, by this definition, include > randomly broken-off sentence fragments, tongue-tied hemming > and hawing, slips of the tongue, and other forms of word > salad. The results of Labov's tabulation are enlightening. > The great majority of sentences were grammatical, especially > in casual speech, with higher percentages of grammatical > sentences in working-class speech than in middle-class > speech. The highest percentage of ungrammatical sentences > was found in the proceedings of learned academic conferences. > > > For those on the list who are at all interested in linguistics, this is > a fabulous book. It's still in print and fairly easy to find. Steven Pinker > is quite highly regarded among linguists for being able to explain linguistic > concepts in regular ol' speech. > > -Seth > -- > "As a general rule, the man in the habit of murdering | Seth Morabito > bookbinders, though he performs a distinct service | sethm@loomcom.com > to society, only wastes his own time and takes no | > personal advantage." -- Kenneth Grahame (1898) | Perth ==> * > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 10 07:21:24 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages (Ebonics) In-Reply-To: <20000309184429.A4535@loomcom.com> Message-ID: > > > BEV follows strict rules of grammar and word use, and has syntactic > > > roots in several major west African languages like Ewe, Iwo, > > > and Yoruba. It really is not gibberish at all, no matter how >>>>great snippage... I lived in the Pocanos. They be in Pennsilvania parts. There they speak a mix of German, Dutch and English that give the Amish and also the old locals a interesting dialect. Never could master it, that lack of mastery would peg me as outsider even though I was also a local. It goes far deeper than accent. The other side of that was better english in some of the locals minds made me "better educated" even though some had more paper than I. Allison From at258 at osfn.org Fri Mar 10 07:43:45 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:04 2005 Subject: languages (Ebonics) In-Reply-To: <200003100300.TAA16978@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: Quite true, but ultimately irrevalent. Were, examples aside, your linguistics courses taught in BEV or Standard English? Standard is generally a more effective means of data interchange. Linguists can be compared to the people who check the plumbing, writers are the ones that flush. We're looking at things from a number of different perspectives here. The linguist has a purely mechanical interpretation, others a sociological bias, or an artistic one. We have to be careful we don't miss each others' points, because we all have very differing backgrounds. I don't have a problem with dialect, it is as surely interesting as it is non-standar - and standardisation is what makes things run. I use dialect in some of my writing, but there are certainly purposes and occasions where it is inappropriate. In those, I would use standard English. Here in New England we speak differently, although the dialect is not as extreme as BEV, an is mostly pronunciational. Notice how media insists on a standard pronunciation, that's why all our local tv new readers sound like foreigners. It's really amusing to hear them try to say Quonnochontaug for the first time. On Thu, 9 Mar 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::It's still dialectical, however, like Gullah, and inappropriate as a > ::basis for standard English. Further, use of the dialect effectively > ::condemns the user to a lower socio-economic status, which seems very unfair. > ::Upward mobility is usually preceded by change in language to that of the > ::upper group. It almost seemed like the Ebonics movement was determined > ::to keep the poor in their place. > > Since my degree actually happens to be linguistics ... > > BEV/Ebonics is considered a valid dialect, and the rules of it are > documented. Where linguistics makes no comment is the appropriateness > or social applicability, or even correctness. If people say it and > other people understand it, then it's grammatical. Anyone who says > otherwise is William F. Buckley, Jr. :-) > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu > -- It's not enough to be Hungarian. You must have talent too. -- Alex Korda --- > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Mar 10 08:03:44 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: Looking for an old journal article Message-ID: <20000310140344.5313.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Doug Coward wrote: > FOR THE TRULY AMBITIOUS COLLECTORS: > "Items available for disposal" page: > http://www.chew46.freeserve.co.uk/aeroswap.html >..."GAF Ikara anti-submarine missile: I've heard of these. It's the source of the name J.M.S. used in the B5 episode "Infection" (http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/004.html). From the Lurker's Guide: Ikarra may be an Australian Aboriginal word. The Australian DSTO (Defence Sciences and Technology Organisation) developed the anti-submarine weapon "Ikara" in the 1950's. It is no longer in use in the Australian Navy, having been fired for the last time in 1990. The Brazilian Navy may still use a variation of it. Since the DSTO has a tradition of naming its products after warlike Aboriginal animals, it's plausible that the word refers to an animal. Not only "missile guidance computers", but pre-integrated-circuit missile guidance computers, depending on the exact vintage of what's in the Bristol Aero Collection. > The page also states "The Bristol Aero Collection conforms to > the rules of the UK Museum's Council and can dispose of historic > items only to "Good Homes" such as Museums operating under comparable > rules." I'd better get back to work on my incorporation papers. > In a separate search, I found this description of a Ikara: > Australian ship-launched anti-submarine missile with a > 12.5 nm range that employs a two-stage solid fuel motor > and navigates via command guidance and an autopilot. > The Aerospace Technologies of Australia, Pty., Ltd.-built > Ikara is 11 ft long with a wingspan of 5 ft and weighs 980 > lbs at takeoff. I wonder how much of that is fuel and payload? 60%? 80%? How does U.S. Airways feel about a missile in checked baggage? :-) -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Mar 10 08:49:13 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: Display phone? Re: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000210135933.48efda7e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000310094913.276f9da6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Kevin, Do you know if the power supply is good? I've had several people ask me for one so they seem to be failure prone. Joe At 09:29 PM 3/9/00 -0500, you wrote: >I know it's an old post, but I'm just now getting a chance to read my >mail. > >I have one of these nifty little things but it seems fried... No longer >the chirp when you plug it in, no display... any ideas? > >Kevin > >On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Joe wrote: >> >> Bill, That sounds like a Northern Telcom Display phone. I've got two of >> them, they're pretty neat. >> >> Joe >> > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Mar 10 08:24:08 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: The C programming language Message-ID: <20000310142409.28320.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Geoff Roberts wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 3:51 PM > Subject: Re: The C programming language > > > > In a message dated 03/09/2000 3:19:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de writes: > > > > > I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the > > > sense of degeneration. > > > > Hey, Hans, I don't get this. C is the most versatile, flexible, and > > portable language ever devised. It permits complete control of > > hardware while at the same time allowing elegance in program design > > and structure. Allowing is the keyword here. I've seen some stuff that just took my breath away and I've also seen stuff that made me retch. > You forgot to add "and is perfectly comprehensible to anyone with long > experience in assembly language or machine code." It's been said that C has all the power of assembler with all the legibility of assembler. If you've ever taken C and compiled it on a PDP-11 and looked at the output, you'll quickly notice that many of the "features" of the language translate to very few instructions - it's assembler shorthand, essentially. This, to me, is a benfit, not a detriment, but I _like_ assembler, especially PDP-11 MACRO (and it's relatives like the MC68K) > I don't have any Uni level CS under my belt, and that seems > to be what's needed to comprehend it. Rubbish. My first language was BASIC (like so many kids in the late 1970s), followed quickly by 1802 and 6502 machine language (no compiler - stuff entered in hex), then, about six years after I started programming, C. Working at SRC in 1984, I saw that we had a UNIX machine nestled amongst the VAXen running VMS. It was a VAX-11/750 w/2Mb RAM and two RK07 drives. I don't have the drives (they were discarded in 1992), but I do have _that_ 11/750 (s/n BT000354) now upgraded to 8Mb w/SI9900, Fuji Eagle, etc. We swapped out different sets of RK07 packs to run various Unices to conform to the customer's configuration - 4.0BSD, 4.1BSD and SYSIII, IIRC. I still have the VAX SYSIII tapes somewhere, but who knows if they are still legible after all this time. Anyway, way back then, I'd heard about UNIX and decided I wanted a piece of it. I got an account, borrowed a copy of the K&R book and used it as a reference to write my first C program. It was an abomination as far as style goes, but it did work - it converted a text table of board handle numbers into a formatted picture of the contents of all of our PDP-11 and VAXen, a job I'd do today in perl and probably HTML. What I've found from personal experience is that to really _learn_ a programming language, I need a project to keep me going past the learning cliff. With 6502 assembler, it was hand-compiling Scott Adams' adventure engine from BASIC (a story I've been happily able to share with him many years later); with Java, it's my program to calculate sunset/sunrise charts for my Antarctic web page; with Inform it was translating Zork from MDL. It can be a monster project or a few dozen K of source, but the important part is having a motivational goal to complete. I never learned a programming language in school, only by rolling up my sleeves, going into larval mode once again and banging out a fun project. Just for the record, I am very fond of C. Yes, atrocities have been committed in it, but it's right up there with perl and assembler as my favorite tools to get the job done. Just be sure that you use the right tool for the right job. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 10 08:31:51 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: OT: Re: languages In-Reply-To: <38C8159F.4C5F241C@cornell.edu> References: <000c01bf89e9$d507b2a0$0400c0a8@winbook> <3.0.1.16.20000309152057.31bf2bba@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000310083057.01b40580@pc> At 04:20 PM 3/9/00 -0500, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: >What other profession is there with an entry salary of >about $28K, and a top salary (after 20+ years) of less than $70K ? Actually, there are lots of jobs like that. Also, have you forgotten the nice long summer vacation? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 10 08:49:36 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: The C programming language In-Reply-To: <009e01bf8a67$c7cc9000$fd81a7ca@helpdesk> References: <64.e78897.25f9e04f@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000310083711.01997960@pc> At 06:37 PM 3/10/00 +1030, Geoff Roberts wrote: >You forgot to add "and is perfectly comprehensible to anyone with long >experience in assembly language or machine code." That's it's big >problem. I can look at something in Turbo Pascal and make sense of it. >It even made some sense to me before I read the manuals. I was in college in an unfortunate time in the early 80s when you were expected to be able to program in C to produce course work, yet there were no courses that taught C. They "taught" C via volunteers outside of class time out of sheer necessity. It was useless. I agree completely - after having my brain warped by years of BASIC and a smattering of Pascal, thinking of C as a fancy macro assembler was the fastest way to learn, read and program in C. You might enjoy reading my copy of "Why Pascal is Not My Favorite Programming Language" by Brian Kernighan, one of the creators of C, at http://www.threedee.com/jcm/psystem/whypascal.html . These religious wars tend to forget about the talents of the programmer. I've ported programs from language to language, and there are some people who can't write their way out of a paper bag. Well-written Pascal code can port quite quickly to C or Java, and vice-versa. In most languages, you're free to write memory leaks, spaghetti control structures, incomprehensible data structures, undocumented file formats, bizarre and obtuse methods of twiddling bits or operating system records, etc. - John Jefferson Computer Museum http://www.threedee.com/jcm/ From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Mar 10 09:08:41 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: The C programming language In-Reply-To: <20000310142409.28320.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Mar 10, 2000 06:24:08 am" Message-ID: <200003101508.KAA04885@bg-tc-ppp729.monmouth.com> Ethan wrote: > > Rubbish. My first language was BASIC (like so many kids in the late 1970s), > followed quickly by 1802 and 6502 machine language (no compiler - stuff > entered in hex), then, about six years after I started programming, C. > Working at SRC in 1984, I saw that we had a UNIX machine nestled > amongst the VAXen running VMS. It was a VAX-11/750 w/2Mb RAM and two > RK07 drives. I don't have the drives (they were discarded in 1992), > but I do have _that_ 11/750 > (s/n BT000354) now upgraded to 8Mb w/SI9900, Fuji Eagle, etc. We swapped out > different sets of RK07 packs to run various Unices to conform to the > customer's configuration - 4.0BSD, 4.1BSD and SYSIII, IIRC. I still have the > VAX SYSIII tapes somewhere, but who knows if they are still legible after > all this time. Anyway, way back then, I'd heard about UNIX and decided I > wanted a piece of it. I got an account, borrowed a copy of the K&R book > and used it as a reference to write my first C program. It was an > abomination as far as style goes, but it did work - it converted a text table > of board handle numbers into a formatted picture of the contents of all of > our PDP-11 and VAXen, a job I'd do today in perl and probably HTML. > > What I've found from personal experience is that to really _learn_ a > programming language, I need a project to keep me going past the learning > cliff. The advantage of assembly language is it's closeness to machine language. As an old hardware guy I can visualize those bits and bytes in the 11/34 going from the A mux through the ALU...etc. C's abstraction begins to bore me and it seems a write only language. Bill bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Mar 10 09:10:48 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages (Ebonics) In-Reply-To: from "Merle K. Peirce" at "Mar 10, 2000 08:43:45 am" Message-ID: <200003101510.KAA04900@bg-tc-ppp729.monmouth.com> > Quite true, but ultimately irrevalent. Were, examples aside, your > linguistics courses taught in BEV or Standard English? Standard is > generally a more effective means of data interchange. Linguists can be > compared to the people who check the plumbing, writers are the ones that > flush. We're looking at things from a number of different perspectives here. > The linguist has a purely mechanical interpretation, others a sociological > bias, or an artistic one. We have to be careful we don't miss each > others' points, because we all have very differing backgrounds. I don't > have a problem with dialect, it is as surely interesting as it is > non-standar - and standardisation is what makes things run. > > I use dialect in some of my writing, but there are certainly purposes and > occasions where it is inappropriate. In those, I would use standard > English. Here in New England we speak differently, although the > dialect is not as extreme as BEV, an is mostly pronunciational. Notice > how media insists on a standard pronunciation, that's why all our local > tv new readers sound like foreigners. It's really amusing to hear them > try to say Quonnochontaug for the first time. > In New Jersey watch 'em with Manalapan or Piscataway or Parsippany... or Ho-Ho-Kus... Those good old Indian names screw up those migrant newsreaders real quick. Bill ex-Print and Radio News person turned computer geek From bill at chipware.com Fri Mar 10 09:15:50 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: The C programming language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01bf8aa3$84dd2110$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > > It permits complete control of hardware while at the > > same time allowing elegance in program design and structure. > The key word here is "allowing" not requiring. Hmpf! A bad programmer can make an awful mess in _ANY_ language, including ADA. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 10 09:51:17 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: The C programming language Message-ID: <001401bf8aa8$7e4bd120$0400c0a8@winbook> While I'd definitely have to weigh in on the side of the 'C' programmers, there are a few things that have disappointed me over the years, more with the compilers than with the general notion of 'C' as a language. As I've often said, however, "Where you sit determines what you see." I live in the microcontroller world, and the compilers vary widely in terms of functionality and quality. There's a range of compilers reaching from doing WAY too much to doing virtually nothing helpful at all. 'C' allows me to write code for these small computers/controllers that runs pretty quickly in terms of development time/effort, yet still enables me to focus my efforts on the task specifics. The compiler (hopefully) deals with the common logica constructs, e.g. iteration, comparison, etc. though it can't be relied on to produce the most compact code nor can it be expected to produce the shortest run times. Most of these compilers produce assembly language output. That means that I can take their output and whittle on at as I need to. I've seen very few of the more popular languages available for microcontrollers. There's no CC++ for the PIC, nor is there an ADA for the 68HC705. WHile there are PASCAL compilers for the more popular microcontrollers, they're not that common, and support for the various flavors of the common, e.g. 8x51-core-based varieties, of which there are literally dozens, is often left to the user. If it weren't for 'C', there'd only be assembler for most of my programming, and, frankly, if it weren't for 'C', there'd probably be few assemblers, since they're almost all written in 'C'. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 4:02 AM Subject: Re: The C programming language >>In a message dated 03/09/2000 3:19:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de writes: >> >>> I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the >>> sense of degeneration. >> >>Hey, Hans, I don't get this. C is the most versatile, flexible, and portable >>language ever devised. It permits complete control of hardware while at the >>same time allowing elegance in program design and structure. > >The key word here is "allowing" not requiring. The obfuscated C code >contest kind of invented itself. > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 10 09:58:43 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages Message-ID: <002101bf8aa9$83511b20$0400c0a8@winbook> Another thing to keep in mind about these jobs is that not only is the summer vacation long, but there are plenty of days without kids in the building, when most teachers go skiing or golfing, or hot-tubbing, and the workday for most of them is less than 6 hours. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Foust To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 8:13 AM Subject: OT: Re: languages >At 04:20 PM 3/9/00 -0500, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: >>What other profession is there with an entry salary of >>about $28K, and a top salary (after 20+ years) of less than $70K ? > >Actually, there are lots of jobs like that. Also, have you >forgotten the nice long summer vacation? > >- John > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Mar 10 11:09:08 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: The C programming language In-Reply-To: <20000310142409.28320.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com>; from ethan_dicks@yahoo.com on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 06:24:08AM -0800 References: <20000310142409.28320.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000310120908.A29381@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 06:24:08AM -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It's been said that C has all the power of assembler with all the legibility > of assembler. And I wish people would stop saying it!!! C has *some* of the power of assembly but it's a lot *less* legible. And for some reason most C code is 99% uncommented to boot... John Wilson D Bit From elvey at hal.com Fri Mar 10 11:50:15 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: The C programming language In-Reply-To: <000b01bf8aa3$84dd2110$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <200003101750.JAA29120@civic.hal.com> "Bill Sudbrink" wrote: > Hmpf! A bad programmer can make an awful mess in _ANY_ > language, including ADA. Hi The only advantage I've see to ADA is that it keeps you doing the right thing, once you realize what the right thing is. If you started doing the wrong thing, it keeps you doing the wrong thing. The biggest problem I've see with most programming languages is that they often try to make programming look like natural languages. Most natural languages are vary poor for describing process. This usually carries into the programming language. Dwight From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Mar 10 12:38:01 2000 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sjm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages (Teachers) In-Reply-To: <002101bf8aa9$83511b20$0400c0a8@winbook>; from edick@idcomm.com on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 08:58:43AM -0700 References: <002101bf8aa9$83511b20$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000310103801.A1767@loomcom.com> On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 08:58:43AM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Another thing to keep in mind about these jobs is that not only is the > summer vacation long, but there are plenty of days without kids in the > building, when most teachers go skiing or golfing, or hot-tubbing, and the > workday for most of them is less than 6 hours. > > Dick I think it's extremely unfair to label all teachers like this. You make them sound lazy. I know only one highschool teacher today, but I do know he works his ass off. He does NOT take the summer off, he takes summer teaching contracts to make ends meet. After teaching his classes he has, further courses of his own to attend, papers to grade, lesson plans to work out, staff meetings, conference meetings, parent-teacher meetings, and inbetween tons of shit none of us would want to deal with dumped on him. Sometimes he doesn't get home until 11:00 -- and neither do I, but at least I get paid for it. I attended public school between 1979 and 1992, in both California and Connecticut. We moved around frequently, and I was in 8 different schools during that time. That's a lot of different school systems, and a lot of different teachers. Yes, I had some that were merely doing their job, not going the extra mile. And I think I can probably put my finger on exactly one who I would honestly call lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us work together, they made us look forward to their classes every day. They had a passion for what they did, and God bless them for it. I can't think of a more honorable profession. -Seth From cureau at pcstarnet.com Fri Mar 10 13:18:08 2000 From: cureau at pcstarnet.com (Chris Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages References: <002101bf8aa9$83511b20$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <38C94A70.A27B2CDF@pcstarnet.com> Not to be contrary, but... My father is a teacher at a high school in my home town. The school says they don't have the funding to buy textbooks for the classes they are asking him to teach -- he's got to make it up on his own lessons. He hasn't had his own classroom in three years. All his class preparation, test development and grading, lesson plans and the like get done at home because he's got no other place to do them and no time while at school. For a while he was also teaching microbiology at the community college to make ends meet. It's not all hot tubs and golf... :-) Cheers, Chris Richard Erlacher wrote: > Another thing to keep in mind about these jobs is that not only is the > summer vacation long, but there are plenty of days without kids in the > building, when most teachers go skiing or golfing, or hot-tubbing, and the > workday for most of them is less than 6 hours. > > Dick From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Fri Mar 10 13:24:52 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages (Teachers) In-Reply-To: <20000310103801.A1767@loomcom.com> Message-ID: >>> On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, sjm wrote: >>>> lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who >>>> stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what >>>> they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized >>>> us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us Yup... Most are not in it for the money. George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Mar 10 13:23:18 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages (Teachers) In-Reply-To: <20000310103801.A1767@loomcom.com> Message-ID: I agree. My neighbor is a HS teacher, History/Political Science and JV Basketball. He has a PhD, works 10 hours a day, and doesn't take summers off. Many of the days when kids have the day off, he's in school. If that weren't enough, he's involved in a home-schooling program for families in poor areas who want a better education for their children than the under-funded public schools provide, visiting 4 families once a week each. In my experience, he's not much of an exception, but rather just above average. With a few exceptions, the teachers I had from kindergarten through two years in community college were dedicated, caring, intelligent professionals. Heroes for many children who's lives they've changed. I've held my tongue thus far about these blanket statements which have been thrown out haphazardly with no specific factual references to qualify them, but this is ridiculous. I don't know what the economic situation is in your part of the country, but "most teachers" that I know can't afford ski-trips, country club memberships, or hot tubs. Certainly not at the rate that similarly-educated persons in other professions seem to be able to. Please think before you make inflammatory statements like this, or at least bring some kind of solid evidence to the table with you. Aaron On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, sjm wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 08:58:43AM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Another thing to keep in mind about these jobs is that not only is the > > summer vacation long, but there are plenty of days without kids in the > > building, when most teachers go skiing or golfing, or hot-tubbing, and the > > workday for most of them is less than 6 hours. > > > > Dick > > I think it's extremely unfair to label all teachers like this. > You make them sound lazy. I know only one highschool teacher today, > but I do know he works his ass off. He does NOT take the summer off, > he takes summer teaching contracts to make ends meet. After teaching > his classes he has, further courses of his own to attend, papers to > grade, lesson plans to work out, staff meetings, conference meetings, > parent-teacher meetings, and inbetween tons of shit none of us > would want to deal with dumped on him. Sometimes he doesn't get > home until 11:00 -- and neither do I, but at least I get paid for it. > > I attended public school between 1979 and 1992, in both California > and Connecticut. We moved around frequently, and I was in 8 > different schools during that time. That's a lot of different school > systems, and a lot of different teachers. Yes, I had some that were > merely doing their job, not going the extra mile. And I think I > can probably put my finger on exactly one who I would honestly call > lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who > stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what > they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized > us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us > work together, they made us look forward to their classes every day. > They had a passion for what they did, and God bless them for it. > > I can't think of a more honorable profession. > > -Seth > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 10 13:41:18 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages (Teachers) Message-ID: <000801bf8ac8$a3fb2220$0400c0a8@winbook> I've got little sympathy for the teachers in in our school system. Many of them may be honest and hard-working, but during the six years during which I spent on the order of 12-15 hours a week in the school building, observing the goings-on and attending various meetings, I saw what I feel is a better-than-average sample of what the teachers themselves, school system issues aside, are all about. First of all, during my second year in this close-up of the system, I had occasion to visit one gym teacher. He had a 5-bedroom, 2-story house with a 3-car attached garage, and a car parked in the driveway because the garage was full of cars. That particular teacher was always complaining about the low pay. He and I met in the context of an accusation made by a number of the gym students, that he spent his time reading the newspaper, while he should have been supervising the locker room in order to help prevent the thefts and violence that had been brought to the steering committee's attention. When he told me what he earned, which I already knew, I pointed out to him that I had paid more than that in state taxes that year. He simply lived beyond his means. I, on the other hand, lived in a 3-bedroom ranch-style house with merely a carport. There were no extra vehicles in my driveway, either. One 6th-grade math teacher openly declared that he didn't have time to look outside while the children were leaving the school premises to help prevent violent incidents and harrassment as had been brought to the steering committee's attention. I observed that he was always one of the last teacher to arrive in the morning, though he was always out of the parking lot before the first 10% of the student body was leaving the building. On one occasion, I protested the frivolous activity that was being pursued in the social studies classes, which was clearly an art project. After the social studies department spent 10 weeks of the semester on this activity, I was accused, perhaps justifiably, of throwing my weight around. The entire social studies department made an appearance at a committee meeting, to register their complaint, and I challenged them to indicate even a hint of how this artsy-project had tied into the curriculum, first by asking what the cultural significance of the item being mimicked was to the Native-Americans of whose history these were a component, and second, by challenging them to (a) show some connection to the curriculum that was worth over half a semester and (b) to show how they had taught the significance of this item to the current cultural environment. They could answer neither question between them. I asked them a few other social-studies-related questions along the way, only to demonstrate the depth of knowledge of our social studies department. This matter had risen not from my concern over the quality of teaching, since I already knew where that was, but over my concern that all 7th grade students were required to carry, among other things, a pair of scissors, which were, by school district policy included among contraband items. The Social Studies department could not justify this breach of policy. The following fall, 4 of the 7 teacher were assigned to different schools and the one's contract was not renewed. I was as disappointed as anyone could be after my public school experience. When I was in these schools (the same ones, by the way) teachers lived in the neighborhood, and I walked to school with a couple of them every morning. The teacher not only knew their respective subjects, but the English teachers could help with questions about math or science, and the principal spoke very elegant Engish. Even the gym teachers were up to date on world events and could tell you what city was the capitol of Burma. Dick -----Original Message----- From: sjm To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 11:58 AM Subject: Re: Re: languages (Teachers) > >On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 08:58:43AM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> Another thing to keep in mind about these jobs is that not only is the >> summer vacation long, but there are plenty of days without kids in the >> building, when most teachers go skiing or golfing, or hot-tubbing, and the >> workday for most of them is less than 6 hours. >> >> Dick > >I think it's extremely unfair to label all teachers like this. >You make them sound lazy. I know only one highschool teacher today, >but I do know he works his ass off. He does NOT take the summer off, >he takes summer teaching contracts to make ends meet. After teaching >his classes he has, further courses of his own to attend, papers to >grade, lesson plans to work out, staff meetings, conference meetings, >parent-teacher meetings, and inbetween tons of shit none of us >would want to deal with dumped on him. Sometimes he doesn't get >home until 11:00 -- and neither do I, but at least I get paid for it. > >I attended public school between 1979 and 1992, in both California >and Connecticut. We moved around frequently, and I was in 8 >different schools during that time. That's a lot of different school >systems, and a lot of different teachers. Yes, I had some that were >merely doing their job, not going the extra mile. And I think I >can probably put my finger on exactly one who I would honestly call >lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who >stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what >they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized >us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us >work together, they made us look forward to their classes every day. >They had a passion for what they did, and God bless them for it. > >I can't think of a more honorable profession. > >-Seth From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Mar 10 18:59:25 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages (Ebonics) In-Reply-To: <200003101510.KAA04900@bg-tc-ppp729.monmouth.com> Message-ID: Hello Bill On 10-Mar-00, you wrote: >> Quite true, but ultimately irrevalent. Were, examples aside, your >> linguistics courses taught in BEV or Standard English? Standard is >> generally a more effective means of data interchange. Linguists can be >> compared to the people who check the plumbing, writers are the ones that >> flush. We're looking at things from a number of different perspectives here. >> The linguist has a purely mechanical interpretation, others a sociological >> bias, or an artistic one. We have to be careful we don't miss each >> others' points, because we all have very differing backgrounds. I don't >> have a problem with dialect, it is as surely interesting as it is >> non-standar - and standardisation is what makes things run. >> >> I use dialect in some of my writing, but there are certainly purposes and >> occasions where it is inappropriate. In those, I would use standard >> English. Here in New England we speak differently, although the >> dialect is not as extreme as BEV, an is mostly pronunciational. Notice >> how media insists on a standard pronunciation, that's why all our local >> tv new readers sound like foreigners. It's really amusing to hear them >> try to say Quonnochontaug for the first time. >> > > In New Jersey watch 'em with Manalapan or Piscataway or Parsippany... > or Ho-Ho-Kus... > Those good old Indian names screw up those migrant newsreaders real > quick. > > > Bill > ex-Print and Radio News person turned computer geek I'm an ex-broadcaster from the hinterlands of Montana, where we have our oddities too. Wilbaux (wee-bo) is named after a French rancher, Rapelje (Rap-el-jay) was where my mother went to high school, and White Sulphur Springs is the county seat of Meagher (Mahr) county. The county was named for an Irishman, Thomas Francis Meagher, whose statue sits in front ot the state Capitol building in Helena (Hell-n-ah). I've even heard Havre (have-ur) prounounced as Harvey. Even Butte gets messed up . . . There's exceptions everywhere you go I guess. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, Missouri (Miz-ur-e, not Miz-ur-ah) From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 10 14:10:03 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages (Teachers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, George Rachor wrote: > >>> On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, sjm wrote: > >>>> lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who > >>>> stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what > >>>> they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized > >>>> us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us True. My father was a construction contractor and used to have several teachers that worked for him during the busy summer months so they could make what my mother did as a LPN (2years college). When I left DEC I looked at teaching, I needed a masters in teaching over any technical degrees and could expect to make 10-20thousand less a year. It's pretty sad that that the average teacher has 4-6 years of college education and makes less than the average person with that kind of time in a technical degreee. Allison From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Fri Mar 10 14:14:24 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages (Teachers) References: <002101bf8aa9$83511b20$0400c0a8@winbook> <20000310103801.A1767@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <38C957A0.C7B58AB6@roanoke.infi.net> Bravo Seth, Dick's comment just went too far. my neighbor is an Art teacher in a local High School and believe me---if she's not at work, she's either grading papers, planning next weeks work or staying after class to work with other kids. SOME are really dedicated to the profession! sjm wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 08:58:43AM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Another thing to keep in mind about these jobs is that not only is the > > summer vacation long, but there are plenty of days without kids in the > > building, when most teachers go skiing or golfing, or hot-tubbing, and the > > workday for most of them is less than 6 hours. > > > > Dick > > I think it's extremely unfair to label all teachers like this. > You make them sound lazy. I know only one highschool teacher today, > but I do know he works his ass off. He does NOT take the summer off, > he takes summer teaching contracts to make ends meet. After teaching > his classes he has, further courses of his own to attend, papers to > grade, lesson plans to work out, staff meetings, conference meetings, > parent-teacher meetings, and inbetween tons of shit none of us > would want to deal with dumped on him. Sometimes he doesn't get > home until 11:00 -- and neither do I, but at least I get paid for it. > > I attended public school between 1979 and 1992, in both California > and Connecticut. We moved around frequently, and I was in 8 > different schools during that time. That's a lot of different school > systems, and a lot of different teachers. Yes, I had some that were > merely doing their job, not going the extra mile. And I think I > can probably put my finger on exactly one who I would honestly call > lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who > stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what > they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized > us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us > work together, they made us look forward to their classes every day. > They had a passion for what they did, and God bless them for it. > > I can't think of a more honorable profession. > > -Seth From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Mar 10 14:22:16 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: The C programming language In-Reply-To: <20000310120908.A29381@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "Mar 10, 0 12:09:08 pm" Message-ID: <200003102022.MAA09382@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> It's been said that C has all the power of assembler with all the legibility ::> of assembler. :: ::And I wish people would stop saying it!!! C has *some* of the power of ::assembly but it's a lot *less* legible. And for some reason most C code is ::99% uncommented to boot... Yeah, isn't it interesting how assembler source is typically well documented? Except mine. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- I like work. I could watch people doing work for hours. -------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 10 12:32:40 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <200003100432.UAA13000@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Mar 9, 0 08:32:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1055 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000310/c3da2932/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 10 12:47:11 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: The C programming language In-Reply-To: <20000310142409.28320.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 10, 0 06:24:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2611 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000310/39b990c4/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Fri Mar 10 14:49:44 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages References: <002101bf8aa9$83511b20$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <38C95FE8.39179900@rain.org> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Another thing to keep in mind about these jobs is that not only is the > summer vacation long, but there are plenty of days without kids in the > building, when most teachers go skiing or golfing, or hot-tubbing, and the > workday for most of them is less than 6 hours. Another thing about those jobs are the hours spent at home designing lesson plans, quizes, exams, and grading same. The ratio I was told and found to be true was about 3:1; 3 hours outside the classroom per 1 hour classroom time. Also as in ANY profession, there are those who work for a paycheck and those who work to accomplish something. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 10 14:50:34 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages (Teachers) Message-ID: <001701bf8ad2$48666aa0$0400c0a8@winbook> Allison, I believe you've been sold a bill of goods. First of all, look at what a teacher has to do for his/her education and later for his/her salary as compared, say, to an engineering student. From what I've observed myself, and even more so from what I hear from my boys, both in college, the workload in a typical week for an engineering student adds up to about what an education major does in a semester. Secondly, he doesn't have to look forward to those 7 20-hour-day work-weeks for the next ten years, and he knows that he needn't worry about being fired, laid off, or much of anything else that would rock the boat. Sure, he gets about $45K after ten years, rather than the 60-75K the engineer will get, but he only has to work a 6-hour day, and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get full salary and, ultimately a generous pension. Secondly, look at the quality of those individuals. These are people who didn't do so well in high school, mainly due to lack of ambition and diligence, didn't want to work too hard in college, and, of course, couldn't get into a good college. Fortunately, a good college isn't required. On top of that, he's chosen a niche in which he only has to work a 6-hour day, and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get full salary and, ultimately a generous pension. Of course he's not into it for the money. He doesn't want to work hard enough to earn a lot of money. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 1:38 PM Subject: Re: Re: languages (Teachers) >On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, George Rachor wrote: > >> >>> On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, sjm wrote: >> >>>> lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who >> >>>> stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what >> >>>> they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized >> >>>> us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us > >True. > >My father was a construction contractor and used to have several teachers >that worked for him during the busy summer months so they could make >what my mother did as a LPN (2years college). > >When I left DEC I looked at teaching, I needed a masters in teaching over >any technical degrees and could expect to make 10-20thousand less a year. >It's pretty sad that that the average teacher has 4-6 years of college >education and makes less than the average person with that kind of time in >a technical degreee. > >Allison > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 10 14:59:50 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages (Teachers) Message-ID: <002801bf8ad3$93d7f700$0400c0a8@winbook> I didn't see Seth's remarks. I'm sure he makes a good point, and the remarks I've put forth certainly don't apply to every teacher. However, I've had ample oppurtunity to sample what's out there, and it's a dreadful shame that there's so much evidence of what I've said. The extreme cases are the ones that catch the most attention, and that applies to my attention as well as anyone else's. I'm as sorry as anyone that this is what we see when we take a long look, though. I certainly had hoped, when I ventured into this territory, that I'd find something different. It has not encouraged me to be optimistic. My elder son, by the way, has gotten the message that this is an easy and fun profession. He's dropped out of Harvard and attends a state teachers' college, having declared that he didn't really want to work so hard and didn't want to spend as much time working as he observed that I did. I'm not proud of that, but it certainly fits, both with my observations and my conclusions about them. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Craig Smith To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 1:45 PM Subject: Re: languages (Teachers) >Bravo Seth, >Dick's comment just went too far. my neighbor is an Art teacher in a >local High School and believe me---if she's not at work, she's either >grading papers, planning next weeks work or staying after class to work >with other kids. SOME are really dedicated to the profession! > >sjm wrote: >> >> On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 08:58:43AM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> > Another thing to keep in mind about these jobs is that not only is the >> > summer vacation long, but there are plenty of days without kids in the >> > building, when most teachers go skiing or golfing, or hot-tubbing, and the >> > workday for most of them is less than 6 hours. >> > >> > Dick >> >> I think it's extremely unfair to label all teachers like this. >> You make them sound lazy. I know only one highschool teacher today, >> but I do know he works his ass off. He does NOT take the summer off, >> he takes summer teaching contracts to make ends meet. After teaching >> his classes he has, further courses of his own to attend, papers to >> grade, lesson plans to work out, staff meetings, conference meetings, >> parent-teacher meetings, and inbetween tons of shit none of us >> would want to deal with dumped on him. Sometimes he doesn't get >> home until 11:00 -- and neither do I, but at least I get paid for it. >> >> I attended public school between 1979 and 1992, in both California >> and Connecticut. We moved around frequently, and I was in 8 >> different schools during that time. That's a lot of different school >> systems, and a lot of different teachers. Yes, I had some that were >> merely doing their job, not going the extra mile. And I think I >> can probably put my finger on exactly one who I would honestly call >> lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who >> stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what >> they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized >> us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us >> work together, they made us look forward to their classes every day. >> They had a passion for what they did, and God bless them for it. >> >> I can't think of a more honorable profession. >> >> -Seth From mac at Wireless.Com Fri Mar 10 15:01:21 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages (Teachers) In-Reply-To: <38C957A0.C7B58AB6@roanoke.infi.net> Message-ID: My wife's a teacher, and she, too, is waaaaay overworked and wayyyy underpaid. Actually, Dick seems to be describing the life of a Silicon Valley engineer these days.... ;-) -Mike On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Craig Smith wrote: > Bravo Seth, > Dick's comment just went too far. my neighbor is an Art teacher in a > local High School and believe me---if she's not at work, she's either > grading papers, planning next weeks work or staying after class to work > with other kids. SOME are really dedicated to the profession! > > sjm wrote: > > > > On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 08:58:43AM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Another thing to keep in mind about these jobs is that not only is the > > > summer vacation long, but there are plenty of days without kids in the > > > building, when most teachers go skiing or golfing, or hot-tubbing, and the > > > workday for most of them is less than 6 hours. > > > > > > Dick > > > > I think it's extremely unfair to label all teachers like this. > > You make them sound lazy. I know only one highschool teacher today, > > but I do know he works his ass off. He does NOT take the summer off, > > he takes summer teaching contracts to make ends meet. After teaching > > his classes he has, further courses of his own to attend, papers to > > grade, lesson plans to work out, staff meetings, conference meetings, > > parent-teacher meetings, and inbetween tons of shit none of us > > would want to deal with dumped on him. Sometimes he doesn't get > > home until 11:00 -- and neither do I, but at least I get paid for it. > > > > I attended public school between 1979 and 1992, in both California > > and Connecticut. We moved around frequently, and I was in 8 > > different schools during that time. That's a lot of different school > > systems, and a lot of different teachers. Yes, I had some that were > > merely doing their job, not going the extra mile. And I think I > > can probably put my finger on exactly one who I would honestly call > > lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who > > stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what > > they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized > > us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us > > work together, they made us look forward to their classes every day. > > They had a passion for what they did, and God bless them for it. > > > > I can't think of a more honorable profession. > > > > -Seth > From elvey at hal.com Fri Mar 10 15:06:31 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages (Teachers) In-Reply-To: <20000310103801.A1767@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <200003102106.NAA01650@civic.hal.com> sjm wrote: > lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who > stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what > they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized > us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us > work together, they made us look forward to their classes every day. > They had a passion for what they did, and God bless them for it. > > I can't think of a more honorable profession. > > -Seth Hi While it is true that they would have to love the kids to work for such low pay and many work vary hard at what they do, I have myself seen some things that I have to question. I was once asked by a friend to help with some math homework. After looking over the questions, I found that I couldn't answer any of them. It wasn't that they were too hard, it was that they were too ambiguous. After some more talking with the student, I found that these were some of the "don't make the student feel bad by having the wrong answer" type questions. They were designed so that almost any answer could be considered correct. The problem of getting more pay has to be balance with the quality ( not the effort or the desire ) of the product supplied. I would hate to be a really good teacher in todays school system. Any effort I made to actually teach things to the students would be immediately scorned by the rest of my peers. IMHO Dwight From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Mar 10 16:02:42 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: The C programming language In-Reply-To: <20000310120908.A29381@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20000310142409.28320.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> <20000310142409.28320.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000310135517.00bbae50@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 12:09 PM 3/10/00 -0500, John Wilson wrote: >And I wish people would stop saying it!!! C has *some* of the power of >assembly but it's a lot *less* legible. And for some reason most C code is >99% uncommented to boot... I suppose it depends on the assembly language. I can write PDP-11 assembler in C (knowing nearly exactly how the code generator works), but I can't write VAX assembler in C since there are VAX instructions that don't represent well. SPARC code is also easy to write C code with as there are few instructions. The place where this really comes home is in one of my other hobbies where I write embedded robotics code in C for microprocessors like the 68HC11. --Chuck From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Mar 10 17:55:46 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages (Teachers) In-Reply-To: <001701bf8ad2$48666aa0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000310185546.270784fc@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:50 PM 3/10/00 -0700, Dick wrote: >Allison, I believe you've been sold a bill of goods. > >First of all, look at what a teacher has to do for his/her education and >later for his/her salary as compared, say, to an engineering student. I agree. I've found teachers and engineers get comparable salaries but teachers put in about 40% less time. From >what I've observed myself, and even more so from what I hear from my boys, >both in college, the workload in a typical week for an engineering student >adds up to about what an education major does in a semester. Correct. My wife has an educational degree and I have an engineering degree. We both went to the same school and she spent a LOT less time with school work than I did. For example, she never had one computer programming assignment until she was working on her Masters degree. I had countless ones for a BS degree. Her one programming assignment was so simple that I did it in less than one evening. Many of her hamework assignements were to make posters and the like. Secondly, he >doesn't have to look forward to those 7 20-hour-day work-weeks for the next >ten years, and he knows that he needn't worry about being fired, laid off, >or much of anything else that would rock the boat. Sure, he gets about $45K >after ten years, rather than the 60-75K the engineer will get, I worked at THE largest aerospace engineering company in the world for 8 years and I was earning less than $45,000 when I left. And I know for a fact that I was making more than most of the engineers that I worked with. I have two BS degrees and was designated as one of three MUST HAVE employees on the program that I was on. but he only >has to work a 6-hour day, and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get >full salary and, ultimately a generous pension. > >Secondly, look at the quality of those individuals. These are people who >didn't do so well in high school, mainly due to lack of ambition and >diligence, didn't want to work too hard in college, and, of course, couldn't >get into a good college. Fortunately, a good college isn't required. On >top of that, he's chosen a niche in which he only has to work a 6-hour day, >and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get full salary and, >ultimately a generous pension. > >Of course he's not into it for the money. He doesn't want to work hard >enough to earn a lot of money. Of course there are exceptions to this but it certainly fits the majority! My sister is a teacher and yes she doesn't make much money but she has no ambition what so ever, she was a mediocre high school student, never took any college courses and hasn't bothered to learn anything new in over twenty years! FWIW not all teachers have a lot of education. Here in Florida they LIKE for the teachers to have at least one level higher degree than the courses that they're teaching but if they're short handed they'll even wave that. My wife was teaching sophomore level Business Law classes before she earned her BA degree. Personally, I've found the best teachers don't have a lot of formal education but they do have a lot of practicle experience. Joe From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Mar 10 16:57:40 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: Classic computing on NPR Message-ID: <2b.2e0ab19.25fad7e4@aol.com> OK, here's something that's (much) more on topic that talking about spoken language... Anyone listen to NPR's all things considered today? (friday) They had a short story about a commodore 64 user group in oregon. It basically profiled a group of mostly older people who still use and enjoy them for what they can still do. It also mentioned their scarcity and having to scrouge secondhand stores to find parts. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm --You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think-- From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Mar 10 17:02:05 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages (Teachers) In-Reply-To: <001701bf8ad2$48666aa0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: This is total bullshit. Total. A very good, long-time friend of mine did 5 years at University to come out with a dual EE/Music Comp. degree and walked into a $60k per year job with a cutting-edge tech company. He works 8 hours a day, maybe 2 hours extra at home to straighten out paperwork. Maybe. In addition to his base salary, he receives stock options that just about double his yearly salary. He is 27 and owns a house in Huntington Beach, less than three blocks from the shore. He just returned from a three-week vacation in Italy, after being with the company for 4 years. Anyone who kills themselves in school to walk out into a $45k per year job that requires *140* hours per week is not intelligent. A person who does this today is either a moron or a massochist. If this is what you want for your children, that's up to you. This is my last post on the subject. I do wonder what really soured you on teachers, besides your claim to have studied them so closely in the work environment. To demean the entire teaching profession as it exists today in gross generalizations shows a lack of objectivity and portrays you as nothing but a bitter, old crank. To that end, I'm not sure what rubs me so raw about this...usually I can keep my big mouth shut. But listening to someone bash a group of people who are generally dedicated to their profession, and who put up with poor materials and low salaries, makes me sick. Aaron On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Allison, I believe you've been sold a bill of goods. > > First of all, look at what a teacher has to do for his/her education and > later for his/her salary as compared, say, to an engineering student. From > what I've observed myself, and even more so from what I hear from my boys, > both in college, the workload in a typical week for an engineering student > adds up to about what an education major does in a semester. Secondly, he > doesn't have to look forward to those 7 20-hour-day work-weeks for the next > ten years, and he knows that he needn't worry about being fired, laid off, > or much of anything else that would rock the boat. Sure, he gets about $45K > after ten years, rather than the 60-75K the engineer will get, but he only > has to work a 6-hour day, and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get > full salary and, ultimately a generous pension. > > Secondly, look at the quality of those individuals. These are people who > didn't do so well in high school, mainly due to lack of ambition and > diligence, didn't want to work too hard in college, and, of course, couldn't > get into a good college. Fortunately, a good college isn't required. On > top of that, he's chosen a niche in which he only has to work a 6-hour day, > and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get full salary and, > ultimately a generous pension. > > Of course he's not into it for the money. He doesn't want to work hard > enough to earn a lot of money. > > Dick > -----Original Message----- > From: allisonp@world.std.com > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 1:38 PM > Subject: Re: Re: languages (Teachers) > > > >On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, George Rachor wrote: > > > >> >>> On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, sjm wrote: > >> >>>> lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who > >> >>>> stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what > >> >>>> they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized > >> >>>> us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us > > > >True. > > > >My father was a construction contractor and used to have several teachers > >that worked for him during the busy summer months so they could make > >what my mother did as a LPN (2years college). > > > >When I left DEC I looked at teaching, I needed a masters in teaching over > >any technical degrees and could expect to make 10-20thousand less a year. > >It's pretty sad that that the average teacher has 4-6 years of college > >education and makes less than the average person with that kind of time in > >a technical degreee. > > > >Allison > > > > > From cem14 at cornell.edu Fri Mar 10 16:58:59 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: The C programming language In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000310135517.00bbae50@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <20000310120908.A29381@dbit.dbit.com> <20000310142409.28320.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> <20000310142409.28320.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000310175859.00ed3ac4@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Chuck: which C do you use for this? I'm still using the free version of ICC11; I modified Fred Martin's version of crt.s to fit my needs and have been happily using it for years. Carlos. At 02:02 PM 03/10/2000 -0800, you wrote: >I suppose it depends on the assembly language. I can write PDP-11 assembler >in C (knowing nearly exactly how the code generator works), but I can't >write VAX assembler in C since there are VAX instructions that don't >represent well. SPARC code is also easy to write C code with as there are >few instructions. > >The place where this really comes home is in one of my other hobbies where >I write embedded robotics code in C for microprocessors like the 68HC11. > >--Chuck From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Mar 10 17:13:38 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: Classic computing on NPR In-Reply-To: <2b.2e0ab19.25fad7e4@aol.com> Message-ID: Yes! I was just about to post about this! I was stuck in traffic for a couple of hours and caught it. There was also a little blurb the other day about the collectibility of antique technology, both from historic and nostalgic perspectives. Aaron On Fri, 10 Mar 2000 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > OK, here's something that's (much) more on topic that talking about spoken > language... > > Anyone listen to NPR's all things considered today? (friday) They had a short > story about a commodore 64 user group in oregon. It basically profiled a > group of mostly older people who still use and enjoy them for what they can > still do. It also mentioned their scarcity and having to scrouge secondhand > stores to find parts. > > DB Young ICQ: 29427634 > view the computers of yesteryear at > http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm > > --You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think-- > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Mar 10 17:18:44 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: Kids computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.20000310151510.045425b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 02:53 PM 3/9/00 -0800, you wrote: >Just a quick note on this... > >I have a P200mmx set up for my kids, who are (the one's who are computing, >anyway) almost 5 and 4 1/2 years old. I continually preview and install I did the same thing, although I added a twist, I installed one of these new (and dirt cheap) removable drive caddy things that you mount an IDE drive inside of. I install software on a "master" disk, which has a bulk copy program on it. Then I copy the entire drive over to a built in drive on the same IDE cable. I have a switch on the outside of the case that makes the internal drive a "master" or slave (dpdt toggle that is wired with wire wrap wire to the four pins constituting the jumper positions on the drive. Switch the internal drive back to "master" status and reboot. Makes fixing things when my 4.5 yr old drags the entire desktop into the recycle bin and flushes it a lot easier! --Chuck From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Mar 10 17:21:32 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: FW: Free TU81, etc., NW CT. Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000310152132.00956920@mail.bluefeathertech.com> For our list members on the northeastern coast, I present this as received from the NetBSD port-VAX mailing list... -=-=-=-=- -=-=-=-=- X-From_: port-vax-owner-kyrrin=bluefeathertech.com@netbsd.org Fri Mar 10 11:50:49 2000 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:49:25 -0500 From: "Matt Dobush" To: port-vax@netbsd.org Subject: Free TU81 Plus 9 track tape drive ! Sender: port-vax-owner@netbsd.org Delivered-To: port-vax@netbsd.org I have a TU-81 tape drive that worked the last time I used it a few years ago. It is free to a good home. Actually, free to anybody willing to come to my work and pick it up ! No strings attached. I really don't want to get into shipping this sucker, so you have to come to Northwestern Connecticut to pick it up. I can meet after hours or on a weekend if needed. Please E-Mail me directly with any questions or offers since I'm not a regular subscriber to your list. -Matt Dobush Systems Administrator dobusm@torrington.com -=-=-=-=-=-=- If interested, please contact Matt directly. Thanks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Mar 10 17:27:59 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: Swap Meet Update & Reminder Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000310152759.0095b270@mail.bluefeathertech.com> In reverse order: This is a final reminder that the annual Mike & Key ARC Electronics/Ham Radio/Computer swap meet takes place TOMORROW (Saturday the 11th) at the Western Washington Fairgrounds from 09:00 - 16:00 (most sellers pack up and go shortly before or after 15:00). Buyer admission is USD $6.00. Kids 12 or under are free with parent/guardian/similar adult guidance figure. Parking is free. If you get lost, just ask any local for directions to the 'Puyallup Fairgrounds.' Pronunciation, BTW, is "Pew-All-Up" for the WA-state impaired. ;-) Now, the update: As I usually do, I will be selling this year. However, the list of stuff I posted that I was bringing earlier has changed as follows. BOTH Exabyte 8500 drives have been sold to early interest. I still have THREE EXB-8200 drives available. Also, the DSD's and other chassis I mentioned have been spoken for (Eric Smith contacted me last week to confirm his visit), and will not be showing up. Still, I've got plenty of other bits and pieces, including a VT220 and KB (works), a small UPS (600VA or so), and more bits and pieces than I care to think about at the moment (no Q-bus boards, sorry). I'll hope to see at least a couple of you there! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 10 18:12:45 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: Kids computers Message-ID: <20000311001246.71501.qmail@hotmail.com> >I did the same thing, although I added a twist, I installed one of >these >new (and dirt cheap) removable drive caddy things that you >mount an IDE >drive inside of. I install software on a "master" disk, >which has a bulk >copy program on it. Then I copy the entire drive >over to a built in drive >on the same IDE cable. I have a switch on >the outside of the case that >makes the internal drive a "master" or >slave (dpdt toggle that is wired >with wire wrap wire to the four >pins constituting the jumper positions on >the drive. > >Switch the internal drive back to "master" status and reboot. Makes >fixing >things when my 4.5 yr old drags the entire desktop into the >recycle bin >and flushes it a lot easier! > >--Chuck Old Pentium class computers make excellent kids computers. But if you're *really* on budget, an old Mac Plus or, if they don't like the Mac Plus' lack of color graphics, a Mac LC would be perfect. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 10 18:23:16 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: languages (Teachers) Message-ID: <200003110023.TAA13600@world.std.com> >>>snipped/ I know far to many doing the real thing... Like someone else said but I'll say differently: Like cream that rises to the top, so does the scum. We see the exceptional asses and heros, the average teacher is more in the world of trying not to be disenchanted with to many rules, too few resources and an overabundance of students. Hello port-vax, So I've been looking for some way to contribute to the VAX port of NetBSD without interfering with anyone else (and without incurring too much stress as this is still just a hobby as yet). I decided I would try my hand at adding support for the on-board DSSI interface on the VAX 4000/300 and the MicroVAX/VAXServer 3400. To further this end I have acquired the technical manuals on both CPUs (KA640 and KA670) but while they describe the hardware for DSSI in great detail (its very similar to SCSI btw) they both reference, but don't include, the list of valid DSSI opcodes and their parameters! Needless to say that makes it a bit difficult to implement. :-) I'm looking for any documentation on the DSSI opcodes, or a reference to a DEC EK-xxx document that documents same if you know of one. Can anyone help out here? On a related note, I was musing that as I attached disk and tape units I'd call them 'dd0, dd1, ..., dt0, dt1 ...' (as in DSSI Disk 0, DSSI Tape 0, etc) My /dev directory doesn't seem to have any devices by that name so they would appear to be free for use, but you never know ... --Chuck From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 10 18:34:08 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: Kids computers Message-ID: <200003110034.TAA19024@world.std.com> I have just been given a Radio Shack TRS-80 pocket computer. It is in 'as new' condition, complete with manual and cassette interface. I haven't had a chance to play with it yet, but am about to take it to bed and have a look at it (Fiona will _love_ that!). Are there many of these on the list? From a brief glance at the manual it looks as if it is quite powerful for its size and era. -- Regards Pete From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Mar 10 18:43:47 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:05 2005 Subject: Kids computers In-Reply-To: <20000311001246.71501.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, David Vohs wrote: > Old Pentium class computers make excellent kids computers. But if you're > *really* on budget, an old Mac Plus or, if they don't like the Mac Plus' > lack of color graphics, a Mac LC would be perfect. I used an LCII (I've seen them for $10 with color monitors) for a while when my older son was under 3 years old. I wrote a program that would display the key that was pressed in large, alternating-colored fonts, and played a sample of me saying the letter in a normal speaking voice. He loved it at the time (and amazed me with how quickly he learned the positions of the keys). Aaron From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Mar 10 18:51:31 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Kids computers In-Reply-To: <200003110034.TAA19024@world.std.com> Message-ID: It's just that most kids don't want to play with a print server! ;) Seriously, the unfortunate fact of the matter is that the current crop of educational materials available for kids (which are, IMO, vastly superior to their predecessors) *do* require a pentium. I think the requirements for the last Reader Rabbit CD I bought was a P75 with 16 megs of ram. I was a little shocked at how much these games require, and have been building/distributing lower pentium-class machines to other kids in the area for a year or so now. I get the parts cheap/free, and it has the potential to make a drastic difference in a child's (and the entire family's) life. Aaron On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Allison J Parent wrote: > > Whats wrong with an old 386 or 486 box? I have a 386sx/16 running W95 > and despite what you might believe it's a decent quick and dirty > printserver to a HP4L. Another 286sx/25 has a ISA based logic probe > and analog card in it. I have two 486DX2/66 one running NT4/SP4 on 4.3gb > and the other running Linux (RH5.2) on 500mb, both are a kick to use and > perform surprizingly well. Both support SVGA 1mb, have networking and > CDrom. Don't put down those older and often free to cheap 386/486 boxen. > > When did pentium become the required cpu? > > Allison > > > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Mar 10 19:59:41 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Kids computers In-Reply-To: <200003110034.TAA19024@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000310175348.00a0a6d0@mcmanis.com> At 07:34 PM 3/10/00 -0500, Allison wrote: >When did pentium become the required cpu? At about 1995 or so. When my kids were younger an old P90 (Intel Mobo) sufficed running Win3.1 for all their edutainment needs, but as they got older and their tastes more refined it became less and less satisfactory. In about 1995 I picked up a game/utility that was just too much for that processor given the inefficiencies of Windows. Since I had upgraded my "multi-session terminal" (aka my Win95 desktop) to a newer processor, my old one replaced the "lab" computer (which runs all the vendor supplied CAD tools [its more a piece of test equipment than a PC]) and the lab computer became the new kids computer. Interestingly enough (and to bring this message back on topic), my 9 yr old is now learning about programming on the VAX. Why the VAX? Well I can put a VT320 in her room and not worry about her surfing the net (when she figures out how to do that I'll consider her "graduated'!) and there is very little "clutter" between the computer and her education. (She still plays games on the PC in the living room though.) --Chuck From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sat Mar 11 00:57:19 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Kids computers In-Reply-To: <200003110034.TAA19024@world.std.com> Message-ID: Hello Allison On 10-Mar-00, you wrote: > > Whats wrong with an old 386 or 486 box? I have a 386sx/16 running W95 > and despite what you might believe it's a decent quick and dirty > printserver to a HP4L. Another 286sx/25 has a ISA based logic probe > and analog card in it. I have two 486DX2/66 one running NT4/SP4 on 4.3gb > and the other running Linux (RH5.2) on 500mb, both are a kick to use and > perform surprizingly well. Both support SVGA 1mb, have networking and > CDrom. Don't put down those older and often free to cheap 386/486 boxen. > > When did pentium become the required cpu? > > Allison > It happened when Intel and William Gates speaketh and the world followed obediently. I soldier on with my 68030 @ 25mHz in a 10 yr old design. Like the VW Beetle (original one) that was designed in the 30's and was built in the 70's and beyond. Gary Hildebrand From mbg at world.std.com Fri Mar 10 20:43:13 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: The C programming language Message-ID: <200003110243.VAA02981@world.std.com> >C's abstraction begins to bore me and it seems a write only language. Unfortunately, it appears that those who advocate and write in C and other such structured languages appear to have lost the ability to comment their code (at least it seems that way from all the code I look at at work -- I would say a mere 5% is really commented). They appear to assume that C code is itself sufficient commenting... It doesn't work. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Fri Mar 10 20:46:50 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: The C programming language Message-ID: <200003110246.VAA05138@world.std.com> >Hmpf! A bad programmer can make an awful mess in _ANY_ >language, including ADA. Absolutely... it is possible to write well in any language (including BASIC, contrary to many people's opinions) and it is possible to write poorly in any language. It depends more on the skill of the programmer... ...but I think I better stop here before entirely rekindling the language wars... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Mar 10 20:50:20 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: The C programming language References: <20000310142409.28320.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003701bf8b04$8c8acd20$9e81a7ca@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2000 12:54 AM Subject: Re: The C programming language > > I don't have any Uni level CS under my belt, and that seems > > to be what's needed to comprehend it. > > Rubbish. My first language was BASIC (like so many kids in the late 1970s), Me too. On a TI99/4A (Which I've still got somewhere) Though it was early 80's, and I wasn't a kid. > followed quickly by 1802 and 6502 machine language (no compiler - stuff > entered in hex), Never owned a machine that had one of those. > then, about six years after I started programming, C. Working > at SRC in 1984, My first exposure to C was a couple of years ago. > I saw that we had a UNIX machine nestled amongst the VAXen > running VMS. It was a VAX-11/750 w/2Mb RAM and two RK07 drives. I don't have > the drives (they were discarded in 1992), but I do have _that_ 11/750 > (s/n BT000354) now upgraded to 8Mb w/SI9900, Fuji Eagle, etc. You are fortunate in having had access to such systems early in the piece. My only exposure to computers in a work environment was a tired Z80 based something or other that we did a little word processing on. I did some work related stuff on a TI59C programmable calculator, then similar in TIBASIC. But C wasn't around for the TI and the UCSD Pascal card/compiler was very expensive. The only 'real' computer I encountered (obliquely) was the Ferranti mainframe in the Message Switching Centre downstairs. IIRC, it was a 24 bit system that was used to handle teleprinter message traffic on the AFTN (Aeronautical Fixed Telecommunications Network). I have no idea what O/S it ran, it's secrets were jealously guarded by the Aeronautical Telecommunications Officers, (Operators in other words). It ran an in house written software suite to read message headers and route them to their destinations, with correct priorities, sequencing of msgs so that 'missed' tfc could be detected etc etc. Most of the stuff interfaced to it were Siemens Model S100 baudot teleprinters running at 50, 75, 100 baud. The 100baud ones were not designed to run at that speed, but the techs cranked them up by tinkering with the motors. In spite of that, they were quite reliable, and only failed about 3 times in the 5 years I was in the Sydney FSC. > What I've found from personal experience is that to really _learn_ a > programming language, I need a project to keep me going past the learning > cliff. I'd agree with that. I certainly wouldn't have gotten into TP without a particular project in mind. > I never learned a programming language in school, only by rolling up my sleeves, > going into larval mode once again and banging out a fun project. Interesting. I got the impression that the knowledgeable C programmers around either a) Worked in a professional computing environment and 'worked their way up' or b) Went to university and studied CS there. or c) Both. C doesn't strike me as a language that could be 'self taught' without prior knowledge of a lot of things that you don't see outside that kind of environment. All the books I ever saw on C seemed to expect that you already have a working knowledge of data structures architecture of the machine etc etc etc. I don't. TP was perhaps just better documented for ignorant newbies than C is. That you have 'self taught' on it regardless indicates otherwise, so I will revise my opinion. However I must agree that it does seem to (me at least, and I saw a another response to my original post that agreed) to be a "write only" language unless it is very well commented. > Just for the record, I am very fond of C. No? Really? ;^) > Yes, atrocities have been > committed in it, but it's right up there with perl and assembler as > my favorite tools to get the job done. It obviously works for you. > Just be sure that you use the > right tool for the right job. Always good advice. Er, I should point out that I don't/didn't intend to start a holy war here, I'm merely relating my experiences. We all seem to have our favourites, I guess I like TP because it was the first 'real' language (something compiled, not interpreted) I was able to get hold of. Cheers Geoff Roberts Saint Mark's College. From jpero at cgocable.net Fri Mar 10 16:06:12 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Kids computers In-Reply-To: References: <200003110034.TAA19024@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200003110303.e2B33TL23605@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:51:31 -0800 (PST) > From: Aaron Christopher Finney > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Kids computers > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Seriously, the unfortunate fact of the matter is that the current crop of > educational materials available for kids (which are, IMO, vastly superior > to their predecessors) *do* require a pentium. I think the requirements > for the last Reader Rabbit CD I bought was a P75 with 16 megs of ram. Actually, former machine was Am5x86-133 which is hidous than P5-75 and no cache, too small ram 20MB also. The proper kids machine is more of P5 100 w/ L2 cache minimum but best is 133 or 166, 40~64MB, 2GB minimum, 6 ed programs do push the capacity of hd. Older 16 bit sound card, 8X minimum cdrom. I just finished working on like this. Correct these current ed. kids programs demands that much in hardware area that Aaron noted. Last thing for kids is problems; ie too small HD and slow, and cpu & tiny ram lousy performance, ie: long pauses than some software's built in does. > Aaron > > Whats wrong with an old 386 or 486 box? I have a 386sx/16 running W95 These chips do fine with matching older software from that time. DX2 66 w/ 16MB is pushing the limits on 95. > > When did pentium become the required cpu? Bloat and more fancy graphics in latest software in general. 95/98 generally are more reliable at least 40 to 64MB. I'm running 64MB and that is what 9x needs except for ram hungry software like graphics work ie: photoshop. > > Allison PS: Win 2K is expressly designed for slot 1 and A, socketed cpus above 500MHz and mid to high end HD. Be it IDE or SCSI, either 5400rpm and 7200rpm, 8GB+, 128MB or more, proper video card not ATi, Trident and half-assed video chipsets. Wizard From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 10 22:30:38 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: languages (Teachers) Message-ID: <001c01bf8b12$8e231800$0400c0a8@winbook> This comment (not specifically, but as it aligns with several others) serves to show how easy it is to get out of touch with what's happening in the institutions within which most of us spent 10-12 years of our lives. It's true that some (few, however) teachers are present before the majority of students are in the school. It's also true that some teachers remain present after the students are dismissed at the end of the school day. However, I'd add a couple of things to the already foul mix. First of all, if my skills as an observer are not totally off, and I made records of most of this, by the way, the ones who are present when the kids show up are generally the same ones who are present after they've left. In the three schools I observed, the faculty ranged in size between 105 and 198. In the cases where I made long-term records, the ones who were present early were, with a couple of specific exceptions, the same ones as were present late in the day, numbering typically 5 in the smallest school to 8 in the largest. In one high school, one of the teachers who stayed late was married to a middle school teacher and she was early for the same reason that he was late. They took one car and she dropped him off at the high school just in time, but then arrived early. He stayed late because she didn't get off until somewhat after he did, so he stayed late about the same amount as she arrived early. For a goodly period of time, I was in one school or another almost every day, between my boys' fights and the various committee meetings, and trying to teach teachers to do something beyond cute little calendars, etc, with their computers. I had the advantage that I had no social bond to any of the teachers, hence didn't have to let the fact that I liked one or another and perhaps disliked yet another influence my assessment of their behavior and performance. If you ask anyone who was present, I was equally harsh with everyone, pounding on the administrators to be more efficient at the same time that I urged the teachers not to be so self-serving in their attitudes and, above all, in their negotiations. I admired the teachers who taught me along the way, and certainly harbor no acrimony toward those who didn't. All in all, they were a tolerant and longsuffering lot as well as being sufficiently devoted to turn many rough-hewn youngsters into decent scholars. I remember many of my own teachers fondly and greatly appreciate what they did to make it possible for me to realize my current circumstances, Those were not the teachers of today, however. It's true they now have neither the respect nor the authority that was afforded their predecessors, but they haven't the determination and self-respect that was common to the teachers I remember. You needn't wander any further than the teachers' lounge to learn that they regard their peers and sometimes even themselves as relatively lazy and lacking in ambition. I didn't invent this view of our current crop, either, by the way, as it is reflected in the news almost daily. In general it appears the Republicans see them as may become if their course isn't altered, while the Democrats see them as the democrats wish they would become. I personally would support an effort to limit the length of time a teacher can teach to five years at a stretch. After this time is up, I'd require they go out into the world and do something else for five years, at the end of which I'd see they were paid as much as they got for doing whatever they were doing, so long as it wasn't teaching. After five years, do it again . . . Each year, I'd also dismiss the bottom 10% based on performance, but without prejudice, allowing them to take 5 years to do something else, and replace them with new graduates. After five years they could reapply with the assumption that they had learned something valuable in the interim. I've heard stories about fellows like your EE/Music double major. I've never seen one up close though. It's probably a California-ism. That place is like another planet. I like to visit, but I wouldn't like to live there. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 4:28 PM Subject: Re: Re: languages (Teachers) >This is total bullshit. Total. A very good, long-time friend of mine did 5 >years at University to come out with a dual EE/Music Comp. degree and >walked into a $60k per year job with a cutting-edge tech company. He works >8 hours a day, maybe 2 hours extra at home to straighten out paperwork. >Maybe. In addition to his base salary, he receives stock options that just >about double his yearly salary. He is 27 and owns a house in Huntington >Beach, less than three blocks from the shore. He just returned from a >three-week vacation in Italy, after being with the company for 4 years. > >Anyone who kills themselves in school to walk out into a $45k per year job >that requires *140* hours per week is not intelligent. A person who does >this today is either a moron or a massochist. If this is what you want for >your children, that's up to you. > >This is my last post on the subject. I do wonder what really soured you on >teachers, besides your claim to have studied them so closely in the work >environment. To demean the entire teaching profession as it exists today >in gross generalizations shows a lack of objectivity and portrays you as >nothing but a bitter, old crank. > >To that end, I'm not sure what rubs me so raw about this...usually I can >keep my big mouth shut. But listening to someone bash a group of people >who are generally dedicated to their profession, and who put up with poor >materials and low salaries, makes me sick. > >Aaron > >On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Allison, I believe you've been sold a bill of goods. >> >> First of all, look at what a teacher has to do for his/her education and >> later for his/her salary as compared, say, to an engineering student. >From >> what I've observed myself, and even more so from what I hear from my boys, >> both in college, the workload in a typical week for an engineering student >> adds up to about what an education major does in a semester. Secondly, he >> doesn't have to look forward to those 7 20-hour-day work-weeks for the next >> ten years, and he knows that he needn't worry about being fired, laid off, >> or much of anything else that would rock the boat. Sure, he gets about $45K >> after ten years, rather than the 60-75K the engineer will get, but he only >> has to work a 6-hour day, and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get >> full salary and, ultimately a generous pension. >> >> Secondly, look at the quality of those individuals. These are people who >> didn't do so well in high school, mainly due to lack of ambition and >> diligence, didn't want to work too hard in college, and, of course, couldn't >> get into a good college. Fortunately, a good college isn't required. On >> top of that, he's chosen a niche in which he only has to work a 6-hour day, >> and he only has to do that 183 days a year to get full salary and, >> ultimately a generous pension. >> >> Of course he's not into it for the money. He doesn't want to work hard >> enough to earn a lot of money. >> >> Dick >> -----Original Message----- >> From: allisonp@world.std.com >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 1:38 PM >> Subject: Re: Re: languages (Teachers) >> >> >> >On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, George Rachor wrote: >> > >> >> >>> On Fri, 10 Mar 2000, sjm wrote: >> >> >>>> lazy (everybody has a teacher horror story to tell). But those who >> >> >>>> stand out in my mind were the genuine heros. They were IN to what >> >> >>>> they did. They LOVED the kids. They latched on to us and energized >> >> >>>> us and really taught us. They made us solve problems, they made us >> > >> >True. >> > >> >My father was a construction contractor and used to have several teachers >> >that worked for him during the busy summer months so they could make >> >what my mother did as a LPN (2years college). >> > >> >When I left DEC I looked at teaching, I needed a masters in teaching over >> >any technical degrees and could expect to make 10-20thousand less a year. >> >It's pretty sad that that the average teacher has 4-6 years of college >> >education and makes less than the average person with that kind of time in >> >a technical degreee. >> > >> >Allison >> > >> > >> > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 10 22:36:38 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: languages (Teachers) Message-ID: <002b01bf8b13$6488f540$0400c0a8@winbook> You're right about what rises to the top, Allison, and I'd add that the fact that teachers are, in general, represented by a "union" which emphasizes the normal distribution just as the environment in which they work does, by their nature desiring neither accolade nor criticism. Being good doesn't reap the rewards it should in an environment where being good is good, but being average is better. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, March 10, 2000 5:56 PM Subject: Re: Re: languages (Teachers) > >Looked for myself in my locale. > >>>>>snipped/ > >I know far to many doing the real thing... > >Like someone else said but I'll say differently: Like cream that rises to >the top, so does the scum. We see the exceptional asses and heros, the >average teacher is more in the world of trying not to be disenchanted with >to many rules, too few resources and an overabundance of students. > > >Well your experience is different. You wish to see the scum and you do, >those that do the job are missed and those that exceed the mark are >ignored. > >I don't for one second believe that our educational system is up to stuff. >If anything I'd be glad to post my parting address to my HS class, it >wasn't complmetary to skills taught in 1971. The briefest words I'd still >say is I knew Algebra, trig and could write a term paper that would knock >your socks off but... income tax preparation and employment paperwork >(W4, resume, applications) were a mystery. I was trained to go to college. >Thankfully I persued both academic and vocational path in parallel. > > >Allison > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Mar 10 23:05:56 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: The C programming language In-Reply-To: <200003110243.VAA02981@world.std.com>; from mbg@world.std.com on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 09:43:13PM -0500 References: <200003110243.VAA02981@world.std.com> Message-ID: <20000311000556.A31196@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 09:43:13PM -0500, Megan wrote: > Unfortunately, it appears that those who advocate and write in C > and other such structured languages appear to have lost the ability > to comment their code (at least it seems that way from all the code > I look at at work -- I would say a mere 5% is really commented). I've been noticing the same thing when going source diving in the Linux kernel and lots of other places. I think 5% would be a pretty generous guess there (unless you count all the copyright crap and credits), most of the time there isn't a single comment anywhere on the screen I'm looking at. I think that a big part of the cause is indentation. C code wanders all over the screen, while assembly code generally stays put in the left half. So the right half of the screen is always available for comments -- the code looks naked without them! If you can lay your hands on unstripped sources to DEC PDP-11 OSes, they're really nice examples of well-commented assembly language (no I'm not kissing ass, I haven't seen the full RT sources so I wouldn't even know, but RSX and particularly RSTS are really wonderful to read). I can usually find the answer to my question very easily there, meanwhile with Linux I sometimes have to dig through the sources for hours just to find the place that interests me, and even then half the time I just have to fill it with printfs and recompile to see what it actually does, since I can't figure out what it's *supposed* to do. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Mar 10 23:07:06 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: The C programming language In-Reply-To: <200003110246.VAA05138@world.std.com>; from mbg@world.std.com on Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 09:46:50PM -0500 References: <200003110246.VAA05138@world.std.com> Message-ID: <20000311000706.B31196@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 09:46:50PM -0500, Megan wrote: > Absolutely... it is possible to write well in any language > (including BASIC, contrary to many people's opinions) and it > is possible to write poorly in any language. "A Real Programmer can write FORTRAN programs in any language." John Wilson D Bit From fluke at mcs.net Sat Mar 11 00:31:03 2000 From: fluke at mcs.net (Greg Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Copying directory trees under VMS. Message-ID: I have recently found the time to start playing with my VAXen again, and have been struck by a bit of a confusing dilemma: Why is it that when I attempt to copy a large tree from any place to another under VMS 7.2, it always copies as follows: This command: backup dub3:[000000...]*.*;* dub2: causes vms to copy a directory structure that looks like this: [000000.000TOOLS.AXP]file1...file2...etc [000000.000TOOLS.VAX]file3...file4...etc to this: [000000.000TOOLS] (empty) [000000.AXP]file1...file2...etc [000000.VAX]file3...file4...etc How do I get it to copy the whole *tree* in a directory or on a disk to a whole other part of the system? I tried reading the help available on copy and backup, but I haven't been able to figure out how to copy a whole tree from one place to another. Thanks for your help! Greg Linder fluke@mcs.net From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Mar 11 02:05:42 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: The C programming language Message-ID: <20000311080542.2029.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Geoff Roberts wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > > I don't have any Uni level CS under my belt, and that seems > > > to be what's needed to comprehend it. > > > > Rubbish. > > I saw that we had a UNIX machine nestled amongst the VAXen... > You are fortunate in having had access to such systems early in the piece. That is true. I was also fortunate enough to sieze the opportunity. Of the handful of college barely-over-minimum-wage backup operators that paraded through SRC, only two of us are making a living in IT. Most of the operators mounted the tapes, printed the labels and read trashy novels while the TU-78 did its stuff for 6 hours. The other geek and I wrote programs on one of the other systems while the main system was being backed up. We both ended up as full-time programmers for the company's VMS and UNIX products. Several people had access to the programming resources. Most did nothing with the opportunity. > > I never learned a programming language in school, only by rolling up my > > sleeves, going into larval mode once again and banging out a fun project. > > Interesting. I got the impression that the knowledgeable C programmers > around either > a) Worked in a professional computing environment and 'worked their way up' > or > b) Went to university and studied CS there. > or > c) Both. I got my first job writing 6502 assembler for the C-64 in 1982 before I was old enough to drive. My mother had to drop me off and work and sign my contracts. I realize this is atypical, but there it is. I did start off at University with a double CS and EE major. I took one "FORTRAN for Engineers" class and after two years in the program switched my major and earned a BA in History (while learning to program in C on the side at work). So given your above model of the anticipated career paths of C programmers, I would most closely fall into A). I learned C at work, doing a project to automate one of my assigned job tasks after having been a professional assembler programmer for two to three years. I did it by asking the "real" programmers at work, exploring source code and reading K&R cover to cover several times. I still tell people to start with that book, BTW. It's a goldmine of information. > C doesn't strike me as a language that could be 'self taught' without prior > knowledge of a lot of things that you don't see outside that kind of > environment. I'm not sure I agree here. > All the books I ever saw on C seemed to expect that you already have a > working knowledge of data structures architecture of the machine etc. Have you read K&R? It assumes a PDP-11/VAXish machine architecture, but it covers the basic data structures, linked lists, multi-dimensional arrays, strings, pointers to arrays of pointers. More than enough stuff to get you into buckets of trouble. > TP was perhaps just better documented for ignorant newbies than C is. I did work with TP at one job. The programmer there would certainly be described as a newbie. He was a business major, not a geek. I have no idea how he ever produced that much working code except by pure force of will. It was extremely inelegant. > That you have 'self taught' on it regardless indicates otherwise, so I will > revise my opinion. However I must agree that it does seem to (me at least, > and I saw a another response to my original post that agreed) to be a "write > only" language unless it is very well commented. Again, that depends. I've seen some stuff that was absolutely unintellegible without comments (and not very understandable even _with_ comments) and other things that are so idiomatic and commonly used that adding comments disturbs the flow to the point of hiding what's happening. There are other languages that are _more_ "write only" (APL comes to mind immediately), but I do agree that zero comments makes C extremely difficult to understand. > Er, I should point out that I don't/didn't intend to start a holy war here... It tends to happen when anyone makes somewhat broad and somewhat firm statements about anything in this biz, editors, OSes _and_ languages, to name a few. > I'm merely relating my experiences. We all seem to have our favourites, I > guess I like TP because it was the first 'real' language (something compiled, _That_ is typical in my experience. ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Mar 11 04:01:41 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: languages (Teachers) In-Reply-To: References: <001701bf8ad2$48666aa0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: >walked into a $60k per year job with a cutting-edge tech company. He works >8 hours a day, maybe 2 hours extra at home to straighten out paperwork. >Maybe. In addition to his base salary, he receives stock options that just >about double his yearly salary. He is 27 and owns a house in Huntington >keep my big mouth shut. But listening to someone bash a group of people >who are generally dedicated to their profession, and who put up with poor >materials and low salaries, makes me sick. The world is NOT fair, pay rates are not fair or based much on merit. Generally my experience is that getting a high salary is not an engineering skill. Might be a talent you are either born with or not, I sure don't know. I know very good engineers that happily work for peanuts, and decidedly mediocre engineers who haul down money like lawyers. My last comment, in this thread anyway, on teachers is just wait til your kids have a few years of school, then tell us what a swell underpaid bunch they are. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Mar 11 04:17:41 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Kids computers In-Reply-To: <200003110034.TAA19024@world.std.com> Message-ID: >When did pentium become the required cpu? Read the side of some current boxes of software. Besides its a sad day when one of us scroungers can't dig up a pentium 166mmx class machine for $100 or less. I think a nice 17" monitor is pretty essential as well. Unless its "interesting" I don't bother taking home anything below a 486/66, 68040/25, etc. I strip the parts where I find them and leave the hulks behind. It isn't because they have so little value, and they do have little value, its a question of my time and storage space. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Sat Mar 11 06:54:08 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Manuals (was: languages) In-Reply-To: References: <200003092313.AAA17166@mail2.siemens.de> from "Hans Franke" at Mar 10, 0 00:13:15 am Message-ID: <200003111155.MAA18222@mail2.siemens.de> > > I still belive the best learning documentation ever was done for > > the east German machines - designed to give you every skill and > > knowledge needed around computers - maybe not very fancy and not > > realy colorfull, but understandable, detailed and without any > Top of my list for this would be the user manual for the Sharp MZ700. It > starts off with a simple introduction to computers, and follows it with > the standard 'introduction to BASIC' with little cartoons, etc. Then > comes how to hook up your MZ700. > And then, totally unexpectedly, we get the full schematics of the MZ700 > (including PSU, tape drive, printer, PSU, etc), the machine code monitor > commands, and a list/description of the Z80 opcodes. In the appendix > there's a commented source listing of the bootstrap/monitor ROM. Sounds like the average East German Manual. > I am still trying to figure out who that manual is aimed at... Made by tech guys for tech guys ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Sat Mar 11 07:14:32 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: languages In-Reply-To: <002001bf8a46$9f880aa0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200003111215.NAA20000@mail2.siemens.de> > It didn't hurt that there were lots of Yiddish-speaking merchants in the > neighborhoods through which I walked to and from school. Yiddish is quite > similar to German and certainly makes conversation easier. Let's get this straight, Yiddish _is_ a German language. To be more exact it's in most parts a preserved German as spoken during the 14th centurie along the middle Rhine. > Note that I said it took 6 weeks to "catch on" and not the seven or eight > years it typically takes here with the ESL/ESOL programs. Same effekt over here - whe I went to school, we didn't had seperate classes for Turkish children - and they performed as average as Germans - just two hours a week they had a seperate class. In other states (than Bavaria) they introduced seperate classes for foreign workers children - result: 18 year old pupil bearly able to order a meal. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Mar 11 08:55:43 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Copying directory trees under VMS. Message-ID: <000311095543.2560326f@trailing-edge.com> > How do I get it to copy the whole *tree* in a directory or on a >disk to a whole other part of the system? COPY DISK$IN:[INDIRECTORY...]*.*;* DISK$OUT:[OUTDIRECTORY...] For doing whole disks, I prefer to use BACKUP. Tim. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Sat Mar 11 10:32:29 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Kids computers In-Reply-To: References: <200003110034.TAA19024@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200003111533.QAA04899@mail2.siemens.de> Date sent: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:51:31 -0800 (PST) From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Kids computers Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > It's just that most kids don't want to play with a print server! ;) :) > Seriously, the unfortunate fact of the matter is that the current crop of > educational materials available for kids (which are, IMO, vastly superior > to their predecessors) *do* require a pentium. I think the requirements > for the last Reader Rabbit CD I bought was a P75 with 16 megs of ram. So where is the deal ? A 486DX2/66 is already the same class than a low end Pentium. Private rule of thump: 486/66 (2x33) ~= P40 (Well, ok, there was never a P40 :) 486/100 (3x33) ~= P50 486/100 (2x50) ~= P60 486/133 (4x33) ~= P75 486/160 (4x40) ~= P90 in some situations a late 486 system will even perform better when comparing real world applications - for example will a 486/120 on a well designed VLB board with an aprobiate VLB VGA outperform most P100 designs (of the same time) with PCI cards (when comparing hardware of the same age - of course will a PCI GeForce boost both systems). and for the '*do* require a Pentium' part, I doubt thet this software is checking for a Pentium ID - so if you use a decent 486, you'll get what you payed for (see equivalence chart above). Also often the amount of memory and your graphics card will have more influence - 32MB on a 486/133 will outperform any 16 MB P133 (using Windows). Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Sat Mar 11 10:32:29 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Kids computers In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000310175348.00a0a6d0@mcmanis.com> References: <200003110034.TAA19024@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200003111533.QAA04896@mail2.siemens.de> Date sent: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 17:59:41 -0800 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org From: Chuck McManis Subject: Re: Kids computers Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > At 07:34 PM 3/10/00 -0500, Allison wrote: > >When did pentium become the required cpu? > > At about 1995 or so. When my kids were younger an old P90 (Intel Mobo) > sufficed running Win3.1 for all their edutainment needs, but as they got > older and their tastes more refined it became less and less satisfactory. > In about 1995 I picked up a game/utility that was just too much for that > processor given the inefficiencies of Windows. > [...] my 9 yr old [...] Well, wait some more years - my 20 year old is still ok with her K5-100. :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Sat Mar 11 12:01:28 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: languages (Ebonics) Message-ID: <200003111702.SAA11599@mail2.siemens.de> > I use dialect in some of my writing, but there are certainly purposes and > occasions where it is inappropriate. In those, I would use standard > English. Here in New England we speak differently, although the > dialect is not as extreme as BEV, an is mostly pronunciational. Notice > how media insists on a standard pronunciation, that's why all our local > tv new readers sound like foreigners. It's really amusing to hear them > try to say Quonnochontaug for the first time. Same her in Germany, but considering the practice in (German) Swiss TV, where interviews are DOUBBED or SUBTITELED in Standard German, we are still on the good side. They realy sub title them ... it's always a strange thing - hearing a person speaking German (Well, Schwitzerduetsch) and tead German subtitles ... Belive it or not, they are not just adding them when guy's from the behind the forest are interviewed, but always. That's Strange! H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 11 11:32:53 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: The C programming language Message-ID: <200003111732.MAA11724@world.std.com> Hi, A few more things added. I put up the rest of the RT-11 System Reference Manual (Appendix), the RT-11 System Message Manual, and jpeg color scans of the 1960 Electronics Illustrated article "Build An Electronic Computer" in the "Miscellaneous" document section. I have a few more things to OCR, including the RT-11 Software Support Manual, Fortran Notes, etc. In the next few days... www.retrobytes.org Cheers, Aaron From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Sat Mar 11 13:38:31 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: The C programming language In-Reply-To: <64.e78897.25f9e04f@aol.com> Message-ID: <200003111839.TAA18197@mail2.siemens.de> I started it, so now a big answer... > > I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the > > sense of degeneration. > Hey, Hans, I don't get this. C is the most versatile, flexible, and portable > language ever devised. It permits complete control of hardware while at the > same time allowing elegance in program design and structure. Please ? Thats a lot of stuff for that small thing. Most versatile, flexible and portable ? Lets see: Define most versitale - is that usable for any task ? Basicly all programming languages are usable for anything (well, at least the general purpose ones). And flexible ? Isn't that redundant ? In fact, if you compare C to PASCAL you may notice that there is almost no difference in the basic elements. Almost anything writen in PASCAL can be ported straight to C and the other way. Now, portable - I assume you talk about the portability of the compiler and not the programms (I did spend more than just a few hours to convert C programms between different platforms and compilers). Well you're right, the compiler is fast to port and you need a very low time until it will produce code, and a bit more until it runs native (most time spend on building a minimal OS-like runtime). Just, where is the gain if the produced code is way inaprobiate for the CPU ? No, don't tell me that's just optimisation. It isn't. C unlike almost all other HLLs implies a specific CPU Model. If the CPU is not build acording to this model all code will suffer - even if the CPU offers all stuff needed to do the task. Lets take (the often used - but realy simple) example of string handling. Let's assume you want to move a 10 byte string. C strings are by definition byte orientated and terminated by a byte containing the NIL code (x'00'). If you look at the PDP style CPUs thats a real nifty thing, since you have no problem to move and check the contend at once and do the incrementation. The resulting code is fast and even in assembly a lot of people would write the same code. Now lets port our compiler to a /370ish machine where you have two kinds of block move operation (MVC and MVCL) but no CC is modified by the bytes moved ... instead of using a single operation (or a single serias of operations) this definition of a string forces the compiler to generate a series of 5 instructions MVC, CLI, LA, LA, BC (plus two preceeding load instructions). Instead of a single MVC to move the 10 bytes, these 5 instructions have to be executed 10 times - resulting in 50 instructions instead of one - do you consider this as a good portable ? Even a UCSD P-Code machine can do better (and is an example of a even faster way to port a language). (I skip the 'ever' part, I know you Americanos trend to over emphasis with constructs like this :)) Controll of hardware ? My memory may be fading, just I can not see any reference to hardware controll in my K&R copy. All hardware dependant stuff is proprietary to the compiler you are using. And that's the same way as for example in PASCAL Elegance in design and structure ? Maybe, because it's hard for me to recognice elegance if 66% of all code is needed to overcome limitations of the language or to rebuild basic stuff all the time. In my opinion C is the 'best' possible blend of all drawbacks of assembler with all drawbacks of non-assembly high level languages (I consider Asembly in contrast to Machine Language as high level). Things like messing up the whole programm by one wrong ; or } (something impossible on Assembly) or easyly produce memory leaks (hard to do on other HLL). > Can ADA match that? Well, of course. With ADA you may code anything As Ethan already described, C is tight bound to the PDP CPU model. While ADA is (like PASCAL) without a CPU Model. Unlike PASCAL, ADA offers a lot of ways to describe your data and your intention on the data so the compiler is enabled to choose for every target processor a complete different implementation, since he has more hints what you are about to do. Also ADA offers tools to define way more complex things with simple statements. Using parallel processing within your code ? Just tell the compiler, and if you're running on a machine capable to do SIMD, your programm will get an additional kick. Need Semaphors or other tools of IPC ? Tell the compiler about it, and no matter what operating system, you'll get what you want ... etc. pp. I could go on for hours. Shure, you have to write a bit more text than in C to build the 'Hello World' thing - but if Hello World is your goal you should go for Basic or dBase. In real applications ADA programms will be often more compact than C - in terms of bytes ! SMALL is for example a simple Text adventure engine to fit in just 42KB of Sourcetext - where more than 50% is comments (Hard to create this in C and keep all advantages of a real HLL). Of course ADA is objectorientated. ADA has a lot inherited from PASCAL/MODULA (and a little bit from COBOL :), so PASCAL guys may feel like home. Maybe take a look at http://lglwww.epfl.ch/Ada/ The EPFL has put up some real usefull pages. www.adahome.com is also a good start. And yes, Bill S., A bad programmer can screw up any code. Just in ADA it needs more effort to produce bad code than C. I apreciate programming languages in two conected things: First a language should help me writing a program - thats I 'just' have to make my idea clear and the compiler has to generate code - best possible code of course. To reach this goal I need rather sophisticated construct and not only the most basic ones - this also goes with the good code - if a language like C offers onla the most basic operations it is (almost) impossible for the compiler to guess what I'm about to do and optimize the code accordingly. With usable higher elements I may give more hints on my intention and the compiler may generate better machine code - example: C doesn't include any operation to move data other than the very basic elements (Byte, Int , Float). So if I order the programm to move a structure I use a loop to copy byte by byte - hard for a compiler to optimize this into a block move operation (if available. Other languages may compile this different - they may for example generate a single block move, or a series of unrolled moves or even more processor specific tricks (load multiple registers/store multiple register - a real nifty trick on 68K processors to save cycles). And writing A:=B is way more easy than memcopy(...) - less work for me and better optimisation (Yes, I know that some C compilers optimize memcopy() - just thats a bad trick. And second: A programming trick is like Laws or Locks - it is about keeping honest people honest. If the effort to do it the bad / wrong way is bigger than to do it right, the number of 'faults' will be way reduced. Dick, you say you use C to generate the basic stuff. Thats fine, just I can't see what an Assembler can't do. Let's first agree that Assembler equals to Macro Assembler - and than it's just a bit of _one_time_ work to make any C compimer senseless. Alison: >> I suppose it depends on the assembly language. I can write PDP-11 assemble >> in C (knowing nearly exactly how the code generator works), but I can't >> write VAX assembler in C since there are VAX instructions that don't >> represent well. > An interesting contardiction as VAX is a extreme superset of PDP-11. Exactly the problem described above - The CPU modell upon which C is designed is the PDP-11 and C is made to force the programmer to code everything thats not within this basic set by himself - and lateron the compiler is unable to interprete the intention to generete more sophisticated code for more sophisticated CPUs. Pascal on the other hand has no implied CPU model and can't force this model onto the programmer. Gruss H. Oh, a last thing: Yes, I'm doing C when forced to - And that is not the rare case. And No, I'm not doing a lot in ADA - 95% of all my programming is Asembly. And Another thing, I wasn't in for a Language War, but rather realy wondering what happened to the language world. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 11 12:18:41 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Kids computers In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Sat, 11 Mar 2000 02:17:41 -0800) References: Message-ID: <20000311181841.25756.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mike Ford wrote: > Unless its "interesting" I don't bother taking home anything below a > 486/66, 68040/25, etc. Well, since the ONLY "interesting" computers predate those... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 11 13:35:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Manuals (was: languages) In-Reply-To: <200003111155.MAA18222@mail2.siemens.de> from "Hans Franke" at Mar 11, 0 12:55:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 310 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000311/74cb3192/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Sat Mar 11 14:46:26 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Manuals (was: languages) In-Reply-To: References: <200003111155.MAA18222@mail2.siemens.de> from "Hans Franke" at Mar 11, 0 12:55:08 pm Message-ID: <200003111947.UAA22582@mail2.siemens.de> > [MZ700 manual, which has an introduction to BASIC and ROM > listings/schematics in the same book] > > > I am still trying to figure out who that manual is aimed at... > > Made by tech guys for tech guys ? > Yeah, but do said 'tech guys' need an introduction to BASIC, complete > with little pictures? Hey, even Japaneese techies know that new techies don't grow on trees. :)) Serious, don't you think that you may have more questions after the pictures ? Servus Hans -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From donm at cts.com Sat Mar 11 13:53:57 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: languages (Teachers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >walked into a $60k per year job with a cutting-edge tech company. He works > >8 hours a day, maybe 2 hours extra at home to straighten out paperwork. > >Maybe. In addition to his base salary, he receives stock options that just > >about double his yearly salary. He is 27 and owns a house in Huntington > > >keep my big mouth shut. But listening to someone bash a group of people > >who are generally dedicated to their profession, and who put up with poor > >materials and low salaries, makes me sick. > > The world is NOT fair, pay rates are not fair or based much on merit. Probably the classic illustration of that statement is the rates paid to entertainers - and I take a fairly generic definition here - including such as baseball, football, and basketball players in addition to the more usual categories. - don > Generally my experience is that getting a high salary is not an engineering > skill. Might be a talent you are either born with or not, I sure don't > know. I know very good engineers that happily work for peanuts, and > decidedly mediocre engineers who haul down money like lawyers. > > My last comment, in this thread anyway, on teachers is just wait til your > kids have a few years of school, then tell us what a swell underpaid bunch > they are. > > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Mar 11 14:37:21 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Cute computers (was) Kids computers In-Reply-To: <20000311181841.25756.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: (message from Mike Ford on Sat, 11 Mar 2000 02:17:41 -0800) Message-ID: >> Unless its "interesting" I don't bother taking home anything below a >> 486/66, 68040/25, etc. > >Well, since the ONLY "interesting" computers predate those... I kind of like cute computers, really small ones, items with odd features. Unisys made a series of computers used in banks that I like, very cute. An XT or AT is not cute or interesting. A blinken light computer is interesting, not cute, but valuable, so I would take that so I could offer it to other list members for 1.2* postage. (in your dreams) From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Sat Mar 11 15:46:31 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Cute computers (was) Kids computers In-Reply-To: References: <20000311181841.25756.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200003112047.VAA26211@mail2.siemens.de> > >> Unless its "interesting" I don't bother taking home anything below a > >> 486/66, 68040/25, etc. > >Well, since the ONLY "interesting" computers predate those... > I kind of like cute computers, really small ones, items with odd features. > Unisys made a series of computers used in banks that I like, very cute. > A blinken light computer is interesting, not cute, but valuable, so I would > take that so I could offer it to other list members for 1.2* postage. (in > your dreams) Now, that's a cute offer... H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From spc at armigeron.com Sat Mar 11 15:14:35 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: The C programming language In-Reply-To: <200003111839.TAA18197@mail2.siemens.de> from "Hans Franke" at Mar 11, 2000 07:39:31 PM Message-ID: <200003112114.QAA11869@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Hans Franke once stated: > > I started it, so now a big answer... > > > > I wouldn't consider C as anything 'grown'. maybe evolved in the > > > sense of degeneration. > > > Hey, Hans, I don't get this. C is the most versatile, flexible, and portable > > language ever devised. It permits complete control of hardware while at the > > same time allowing elegance in program design and structure. > > Now, portable - I assume you talk about the portability of > the compiler and not the programms (I did spend more than > just a few hours to convert C programms between different > platforms and compilers). I do have to wonder what other programmers mean by ``portability.'' C is portable, in both the compiler and programs, but it comes at some cost. Portability of programs is possible but most programmers don't have the skill or knowledge to do it right. Mainly, it comes down to knowing the language; what is allowed, and what isn't. For reference, I developed a metasearch engine in C under Unix (Linux and IRIX initially). I paid careful attention towards portability. As a result, the port to Windows only required one line of code to be changed. But I've been programming under multiple platforms in C for 10 years now. I've learned a thing or two about writing portable code. It's surprising how little effort it actually takes to write portable code, but it does take a different mind set that most programmers (in my experience) don't have. > No, don't tell me that's just optimisation. It isn't. C unlike > almost all other HLLs implies a specific CPU Model. Quite true. And there are optimizations that can't be performed because of the language specification. > If the CPU > is not build acording to this model all code will suffer - even > if the CPU offers all stuff needed to do the task. Lets take > (the often used - but realy simple) example of string handling. > Let's assume you want to move a 10 byte string. C strings are > by definition byte orientated and terminated by a byte containing > the NIL code (x'00'). Careful, strings in C are *character* based (what's this ``byte'' you keep talking about? 8-) This is one area where programmers don't quite grasp portability issues. While it's true that characters in C must be at least 8 bits in size, that doesn't mean they *must* be 8 bits in size; an implementation of C that uses Unicode natively could set the size of a character to 16 bits (and there is also the issue of whether the character is signed or unsigned---a plain char declaration is unspecified---it's implementation dependant whether a char is signed or unsigned). > Instead of > a single MVC to move the 10 bytes, these 5 instructions have > to be executed 10 times - resulting in 50 instructions instead > of one - do you consider this as a good portable ? Even > a UCSD P-Code machine can do better (and is an example of > a even faster way to port a language). That's because Pascal uses counted strings---the first character of a string is the count. Problem there is that strings are limited in size to UCHAR_MAX. Another problem is getting that count to a usuable format. The Intel 386 class takes a penalty if you execute 16-bit instructions in a 32-bit segment (or vice-versa). So, to move a counted string, you have: ; assume ESI and EDI point to src and dest respectively lodsb ; $AC cbw ; $66 98 cwde ; $98 mov ecx,eax ; $89 C8 rep movsb ; $F2 A4 Well, there is: movzx ecx,byte ptr [esi] rep movsb But that MOVZX isn't cheap---speed or sizewise. And besides, you want the copy to take place as fast as possible, which means word based moves if possible, which means more instructions to determine if the source is word aligned, destination is word aligned, how many words to move, move any remainder, etc etc (in fact, on the Pentiums, it appears to be faster to use floating point loads/stores to move memory than register loads/stores---64 bit word transfers vs. 32 bit transfers). The ANSI C spec states that the Standard C functions can be understood by the compiler and treated specially. At least in the 386 line, most str*() and mem*() functions compile to inline code and avoid the function call overhead (a friend of mine actually triggered a bug in GCC using nested strcpy() calls). > Controll of hardware ? My memory may be fading, just I can not > see any reference to hardware controll in my K&R copy. All > hardware dependant stuff is proprietary to the compiler you > are using. And that's the same way as for example in PASCAL True---but it depends upon how the hardware is hooked up to the CPU---is it memory mapped I/O or I/O mapped I/O? If the former, you just declare a pointer to the memory location (mapped to the appropriate size) and go. If it's I/O mapped I/O there is probably a wrapper function that the compiler knows about and can inline. But C (the actual language) never defined built-in IO functions, leaving I/O to subroutines (or functions). WRITELN is a language element of Pascal, but printf() is just a function. Depending upon your view, that is either a good thing or a bad thing (I think the lack of I/O statements in C is an elegant solution myself). > Things like messing up the whole programm by one wrong ; or } > (something impossible on Assembly) or easyly produce memory > leaks (hard to do on other HLL). Depends upon what you're used to. Pascal uses those pesky semicolons as well, along with those annoying BEGIN and END statements. Assembly on the other hand, is fairly structured and tend to avoid the cascade of errors prone to compilers (although Microsoft's MASM is also prone to cascade errors). > First a language should help me writing a program - thats > I 'just' have to make my idea clear and the compiler has to > generate code - best possible code of course. To reach this > goal I need rather sophisticated construct and not only the > most basic ones - this also goes with the good code - if a > language like C offers onla the most basic operations it is > (almost) impossible for the compiler to guess what I'm about > to do and optimize the code accordingly. It also depends upon the library of code you call. Over the past few years I've been working on C code that allows me to do the following: MLLexer htmldoc; /* `ML' stands for Markup Language */ MLToken token; htmldoc = DocumentOpen("http://www.conman.org/people/spc/"); while(MLLexerNext(htmldoc,token) != EOF) { if ((MLTokenType(token) == T_TAG) && StringE(MLTokenValue(token),"A")) { /* get link info ... blah blah blah ... */ } } DocumentClose(htmldoc); C code. Lot of work to get to this point though. > With usable higher > elements I may give more hints on my intention and the compiler > may generate better machine code - example: C doesn't include > any operation to move data other than the very basic elements > (Byte, Int , Float). So if I order the programm to move a > structure I use a loop to copy byte by byte - hard for a > compiler to optimize this into a block move operation You're not using C then. While it's possible to do: char *pd = destpointer; char *ps = srcpointer; for (i = 0 ; i < sizeof(somestruct) ; i++) *pd++ = *ps++; That's going about things the hard way. Why not: memcpy(destpointer,srcpointer,sizeof(somestruct)); Or even: *destpointer = *srcpointer; Yes, ANSI C allows the assignment of structures, and even allows functions to return whole structures and not just pointers to them. > And second: A programming trick is like Laws or Locks - it > is about keeping honest people honest. If the effort to do > it the bad / wrong way is bigger than to do it right, the > number of 'faults' will be way reduced. I can see why you like Ada then 8-) Python is also good with respect to Bondange and Discipline languages---it enforces good indentation. > Dick, you say you use C to generate the basic stuff. Thats > fine, just I can't see what an Assembler can't do. Let's > first agree that Assembler equals to Macro Assembler - and > than it's just a bit of _one_time_ work to make any C > compimer senseless. One thing---I can't write Assembly on linus.slab.conman.org (an AMD 586) and have it run on tweedledum.slab.conman.org (68040). C at least lets me write code that will run on both machines. Not that I think C is the Be-All-End-All of languages. It's not and there are limitations I hit all the time, but I've yet to come across a lanaugage that is everything I want in a langauge. -spc (Pretty much convinced that programmers can't 8-) From jlewczyk at his.com Sat Mar 11 16:47:34 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Looking for the "SCELBI-8H USER'S MANUAL" In-Reply-To: <200003112114.QAA11869@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <000201bf8bab$cad6da90$013da8c0@Corellian> I been gathering information about this vintage 8008 computer lately, and seen references to a "SCELBI-8H USER'S MANUAL", which one could get for about $7 back in 1974(?). Does anybody have this document? I'm looking for a photocopy, scan, or original. There is a nice scan of the company's product brochure for the machine posted on the web (http://www.techline.com/~cmlove/scelbi/scelbi.htm) but that isn't what I'm looking for. Thanks! From elmo at mminternet.com Sat Mar 11 16:53:23 2000 From: elmo at mminternet.com (Eliot Moore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's, PDP 11/73 for trade Message-ID: <38CACE62.66A0C24B@mminternet.com> I have a few too many CBM 8032's (12" green screen, full size non-graphics keyboard, 32K memory) sitting in my closet. Please contact me if you're nearby, and interested in one. Will trade for non-vintage Intel stuff. I also have a Trimm- or Sigma- pedestal style 11/73 system with TK50, RQDX3/RD53, RX50's. Its a beautiful piece, but I need something much more compact, like a desktop BA23ish enclosure or VT103. I only have 700' of living space to play with, and the aesthetics corps is frowning. Elmo From retro at retrobits.com Sat Mar 11 18:45:28 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Survey: Vintage Computer Collecting Message-ID: <38CAE8A8.3B72B767@retrobits.com> Hello everybody, I'm a reasonably new member of the list. I've been collecting vintage computers for about a year now, and have decided to put up a web site dedicated to vintage computing. The website is located at: http://www.retrobits.com I'd like to ask for your help in completing a survey. Here are the details: I'm going to launch the first edition of retrobits.com on March 15th. In that edition, I'd like to include an article about collecting vintage computers. It would be helpful to include a wide variety of people's experiences with collecting - therefore, I'm inviting you to fill out a brief survey about vintage computer collecting. If you have the time and can participate, you'd really help me out, as well as helping out other folks who are interested in collecting (or just getting started). If you would like to respond, please send the responses directly to me to avoid cluttering the list (unless you believe others in the list would be interested in your responses, in which case, go for it!). My e-mail address is: retro@retrobits.com Note: I will NOT give out your e-mail addresses to anybody, period, end of discussion. If you'd like to be credited by name for your participation in the survey, let me know and I'll be happy to do it. Here are the questions: 1: Why do you collect vintage computers? For instance: nostalgia, programming, historical interest, gaming 2: Where do you collect vintage computers? For instance: thrift shops, garage sales, eBay, other auction sites 3: What advice would you give someone just starting out collecting? For instance: what to avoid, how to restore dirty/broken systems Extra credit: I'd be really interested to hear what computers people collect (e.g., micros or minis, brands, age range) Thanks in advance for your participation! Look for the first results on March 15th. As more responses come in over time, I'll upgrade the collecting area on the site with the additional details! Earl Evans From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Mar 11 19:03:18 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's, PDP 11/73 for trade References: <38CACE62.66A0C24B@mminternet.com> Message-ID: <38CAECD6.85D0D6AA@idirect.com> >Eliot Moore wrote: > I also have a Trimm- or Sigma- pedestal style 11/73 system with TK50, > RQDX3/RD53, RX50's. Its a beautiful piece, but I need something much > more compact, like a desktop BA23ish enclosure or VT103. Jerome Fine replies: Be careful if you are considering a VT103. The original DEC backplane was only 18 bits (only 256 KByte of memory) although if you are handy with a soldering iron, the extra wires can be added to make it 22 bits. ALSO, the unit is VERY under powered. The DEC specs say only 16 amps on the 5 volts which also includes the video interface and the AVO option if you want a full screen 132 character display. I suggest that if you use a Quad 11/73 with the RQDX3, you are probably OK. But not much else. Put any hard drives on an external PC power supply. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From nerdware at laidbak.com Sat Mar 11 20:29:24 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Need info on GRiD, Please Message-ID: <200003120229.UAA19486@garcon.laidbak.com> Thursday was a good day. Picked up a minty fresh Apple IIe with the 80-column vid card, and three different GRiDs. I know something about GRiD, but would like to do a little more research. Any pointers? One is a Gridcase 1550 (the tank with the little roller bar instead of the trackball) which has a bad screen, unfortunately; a GRiD 386 (similarly-built tank that has a good screen and is happy to boot); and a 486 convertible with a good copy of Windows for Pen and a working pen. Very, VERY well- built little(!) units. Any help is appreciated. Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 11 20:29:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: The C programming language Message-ID: <200003120229.VAA14519@world.std.com> < But I've been programming under multiple platforms in C for 10 years now. Controll of hardware ? My memory may be fading, just I can not <> see any reference to hardware controll in my K&R copy. All <> hardware dependant stuff is proprietary to the compiler you <> are using. And that's the same way as for example in PASCAL < < True---but it depends upon how the hardware is hooked up to the CPU---is Things like messing up the whole programm by one wrong ; or } <> (something impossible on Assembly) or easyly produce memory <> leaks (hard to do on other HLL). Thats simple syntax and rules checking. C allows the naster conversion of datatypes. I've been burned by longints and ints in pointers to whatever. < Depends upon what you're used to. Pascal uses those pesky semicolons as smaller language--> ASM, like Pascal, C and then ASM. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 11 20:29:49 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's, PDP 11/73 for trade Message-ID: <200003120229.VAA14715@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 11, 2000 09:29:25 PM Message-ID: <200003120328.WAA20815@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Allison J Parent once stated: > > < But I've been programming under multiple platforms in C for 10 years now. > > For the last 15-20 years I've been trying to resolve portability. Pascal > and C were clear winners over BASIC always. Keep in mind the platforms > I was trying to hit, CPM{z80}, RT-11 and VAX/VMS and for that carefull use > of C (pay attention to what char, byte, long, double and float were) it was > portable to the limit fo doing direct IO which is never portable. Pascal > never failed to be portable as all objects were the same. With ANSI C (which is what I use, K&R being way to blecherous to even consider), keep in mind that a character is 8 bits minimum, a short is 16 bits miminum, a long is 32 bits minimum (I don't recall the limits on floats and doubles but I can look that up) and that an integer will be at least a short in size, but never longer than a long, and a short is always shorter than a long. There is no bitsize given for pointers, and you cannot mix pointers except to/from void pointers (on certain PDPs I think a char pointer has more information than a basic integer pointer). So, as long as you keep all that in mind, and realize that things WILL CHANGE, you can write portable code. Remember, we're in a new transitional phase right now to 64 bit systems (16 bit shorts, 32 bit ints, 64 bit longs). > This comes out of the tradidtion of C and unix and for that char is > typically 7-9bits and is really an unsigned BYTE. The 8/16/32 world > really forced a byte to conform to 8bits. But the C standard never talks about bytes, only characters and it's implementation dependant on signage (is that even a word?). > <32-bit segment (or vice-versa). So, to move a counted string, you have: > > Gee and HLLs were supposed to hide this... ;) C isn't exactly that HLL 8-) > < You're not using C then. While it's possible to do: > < > < char *pd = destpointer; > < char *ps = srcpointer; > < > < for (i = 0 ; i < sizeof(somestruct) ; i++) > < *pd++ = *ps++; > > On some system this produses different code (usually bigger) > on say z80 this will produce discrete code that is a monster. > > < That's going about things the hard way. Why not: > < > < memcpy(destpointer,srcpointer,sizeof(somestruct)); > > Than this. Z80 library has enough smarts to use the LDIR/LDDR instruction > that is fast and efficient. > > < Or even: > < > < *destpointer = *srcpointer; > > Unpredictable how the compiler will do it even if it works. > This can be horrendus! That is not unpredictable (at least in ANSI C, K&R I won't guarentee). The following is legal ANSI C: #include #include int main(void) { struct tm one_tm; struct tm two_tm; struct tm *pone_tm; struct tm *ptwo_tm; pone_tm = &one_tm; /* assign address of one_tm to pone_tm */ ptwo_tm = &two_tm; one_tm = two_tm; /* copy structure two_tm to one_tm */ *pone_tm = two_tm; /* ditto */ *pone_tm = *ptwo_tm; one_tm = *ptwo_tm; return(EXIT_SUCCESS); } The * operator in this case dereferences a pointer, so the last four assignment statements do all the same thing, basically, copy the contents in the structure two_tm to the structure one_tm. Granted, the whole C pointer thing could have been done better ... > < One thing---I can't write Assembly on linus.slab.conman.org (an AMD 586) > > As would pascal, ADA, basic{maybe}, fortran and heaven help me COBOL. Would that be FORTRAN, FORTRAN-II, FORTRAN-III, FORTRAN77 or FORTRAN90? -spc (Remembers programming in FORTRAN77 ... ) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Mar 11 22:00:44 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Need info on GRiD, Please In-Reply-To: <200003120229.UAA19486@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: >I know something about GRiD, but would like to do a little more >research. Any pointers? One is a Gridcase 1550 (the tank with the I also like the Grid portables, they look really solid, very classy for a PC product. My understanding is that they disappeared into Tandy, or at least had some common models. I just added a 1750 or 1755 to my collection last weekend, as is often the case without a power supply. If a Hell does exist I am sure I will be spending a lot of time digging in boxes and trying to read the worn off characters from the backs of AC adapters. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 11 22:48:07 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's, PDP 11/73 for trade In-Reply-To: <200003120229.VAA14715@world.std.com> Message-ID: > >BA23 is not much smaller and you will not get all of that in a BA23. >The VT103 is ok, but power will severely limit the system you can build >and there is no preovision for mass storage inside. I forget the Vt103. >Also there is the BA123 {stylish end table} and that has room and power. Hey Allison, that's my line :^) BA123's are the ulitimate end tables! Of course a pair of BA23's and a large board to go on top would work in a pinch. Seriously, if anyone complains about the size of the computer, just sell them on the idea it's a table :^) Hmmm, this is probably why I've got problems whenever, I want to use my PDP-11/44, I'm always using the racks as a work surface.... Major effort to clean it off always :^( >You'd need a Terminal for that as the VIDEO console if installed wants >a 19" tube that is huge. Um, that would be on the VAX though wouldn't it, or is there one for the PDP-11? I'm aware of video cards for PDP-11's, but am not aware of them having been any more than a rarity. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jlewczyk at his.com Sat Mar 11 23:01:11 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: Need info on GRiD, Please In-Reply-To: <200003120229.UAA19486@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <000001bf8bdf$fc20d040$013da8c0@Corellian> There is a quite a bit of support for Grid on the web. Rob's Gridboard (bbs) http://www.pd.com/gbmain.html GRid Rugged/Tempest Laptops http://www.netmagic.net/~clare/GRiD.html Support for Grid computers still exists: http://www.grid.com/ Hope this helps. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Paul Braun > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2000 9:29 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Need info on GRiD, Please > > > Thursday was a good day. Picked up a minty fresh Apple IIe with > the 80-column vid card, and three different GRiDs. > > I know something about GRiD, but would like to do a little more > research. Any pointers? One is a Gridcase 1550 (the tank with the > little roller bar instead of the trackball) which has a bad screen, > unfortunately; a GRiD 386 (similarly-built tank that has a good > screen and is happy to boot); and a 486 convertible with a good > copy of Windows for Pen and a working pen. Very, VERY well- > built little(!) units. > > Any help is appreciated. > > Thanks. > > > > Paul Braun > NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. > nerdware@laidbak.com > www.laidbak.com/nerdware > From vcf at siconic.com Sat Mar 11 23:00:46 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: C-64 (fwd) Message-ID: Here is someone with a C64 up for grabs. Please reply to the original sender. Reply-to: 3web@netscape.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 02:29:29 -0700 From: pop <3web@netscape.net> Subject: C-64 Hi, I have a C-64 with 1541 floppy drive, NX-1000C color printer, lots of disks and magazines I am getting rid of. I hate to just throw it all away, but have no further use and need to get rid of it all. Can you help? Walt 3web@netscape.net Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From blergh at dds.nl Sun Mar 12 00:35:14 2000 From: blergh at dds.nl (Erik Brens) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:06 2005 Subject: 3rd party board identification Message-ID: <20000312073514.A18058@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Hello fellow-subscribers, I have some 3rd party boards around that I would love to have identified, these are probably all pulled from PDP11 systems. Versatec Controller 122, full metal handle, one 3M connector marked "differential" (HEX) Dataram 40871 handwritten: Assy: 65123 S/N: 107, two white handles, one 3M connector (QUAD) ACT 10198-0 or 10197-0, (c) 1983, two white handles, two 3M connectors, one Z80A (QUAD, most likely UNIBUS) Thanks in advance, Erik. From elmo at mminternet.com Sun Mar 12 02:03:39 2000 From: elmo at mminternet.com (Eliot Moore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Compact QBus Systems (Was re: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's...) References: <38CACE62.66A0C24B@mminternet.com> <38CAECD6.85D0D6AA@idirect.com> Message-ID: <38CB4F5B.A079B746@mminternet.com> Jerome Fine wrote: > Jerome Fine replies: > > Be careful if you are considering a VT103. The original DEC backplane > was only 18 bits (only 256 KByte of memory) although if you are handy > with a soldering iron, the extra wires can be added to make it 22 bits. > > ALSO, the unit is VERY under powered. The DEC specs say only 16 amps > on the 5 volts which also includes the video interface and the AVO option > if you want a full screen 132 character display. I suggest that if you use > a Quad 11/73 with the RQDX3, you are probably OK. But not much else. I no longer need 132 columns to be fulfilled, so the AVO can be omitted. I'd be attempting a dual 11/73, NS 256Kb, Sigma DLV11, and CMD 220 TM SCSI. If that doesn't work, I'll try taking out the DL and memory and using an MXV11, though I recall those only have 32Kb or 128kb, which would make it pretty difficult to run RSTS/E. > Put any hard drives on an external PC power supply. Good advice for _any_ qbus system. I learned that the hard way, running 4-5 SCSI devices (2 sets mirrored) in a BA23 chassis, and wondering about the mysterious lockups. External drive chassis eliminated those, though cable lengths became very critical. What I'm really hoping for is what was I think called a BA23-SE or BA11-SE, 'twas a desktop 4-slot enclosure, maybe even 4x2? Regards, Eliot From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 12 02:06:19 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: 3rd party board identification In-Reply-To: <20000312073514.A18058@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: >Versatec Controller 122, full metal handle, one 3M connector marked >>"differential" (HEX) Bit of a WAG, but being from Versatec, I'd guess this is a plotter interface. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Mar 12 03:52:17 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Need info on GRiD, Please References: <200003120229.UAA19486@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <38CB68D1.2A7282C4@bigfoot.com> Tandy made a bunch of the GRiD machines and they should still have info and software on their http://support.tandy.com/ site. Paul Braun wrote: > Thursday was a good day. Picked up a minty fresh Apple IIe with > the 80-column vid card, and three different GRiDs. > > I know something about GRiD, but would like to do a little more > research. Any pointers? One is a Gridcase 1550 (the tank with the > little roller bar instead of the trackball) which has a bad screen, > unfortunately; a GRiD 386 (similarly-built tank that has a good > screen and is happy to boot); and a 486 convertible with a good > copy of Windows for Pen and a working pen. Very, VERY well- > built little(!) units. > > Any help is appreciated. > > Thanks. > > Paul Braun > NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. > nerdware@laidbak.com > www.laidbak.com/nerdware From dburrows at netpath.net Sun Mar 12 07:14:19 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Compact QBus Systems (Was re: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's...) Message-ID: <0f5501bf8c2e$5437cab0$a652e780@L166> >I'd be attempting a dual 11/73, NS 256Kb, Sigma DLV11, and CMD 220 TM SCSI. If >that doesn't work, I'll try taking out the DL and memory and using an MXV11, >though I recall those only have 32Kb or 128kb, which would make it pretty >difficult to run RSTS/E. The MXV11 has 8K for the -AA and 32K for the -AC. >What I'm really hoping for is what was I think called a BA23-SE or BA11-SE, >'twas a desktop 4-slot enclosure, maybe even 4x2? I think what you are looking for is the BA11-MA. Desktop 4 slot Qbus the same approx. size as a dual TU58. Dan From west at tseinc.com Sun Mar 12 09:47:06 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: HP 2000 TSB question Message-ID: <003301bf8c3a$39bc5960$0101a8c0@jay> I finally finished testing out all the memory boards in my two HP2100's. I was getting misleading results for a long time due to my lack of understanding of the way the memory subsystem operates - it has to be tested in a very specific non-intuitive (and undocumented) way. Turns out I have four bad boards; three 8K SSA core stacks and one 16K ID board. These two systems ran HP2000 Access TSB, and had 32K each. My question is (before I spend time hunting down replacement boards) does anyone know what the memory requirements for the main and IOP cpu's in 2000Access is? If I can get by with less than 32K in each cpu I can forgo getting replacement boards for the time being and perhaps run with 24/16. Any ideas? Jay West From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sun Mar 12 09:10:51 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Can someone here telnet to my 11/35 Message-ID: <000601bf8c35$27fb5000$7b2fd1d8@default> I have set up my terminal server and put a PDP-11/35 with RX02s running RT11v3.0B on the Internet. Please visit this page: http://www.pdp8.com/telnet.htm and click on the link. If someone is already there then you will probably get a connection error. (soon there will be 7 available ports - only 1 now) I will be putting online a PDP-8/S and a PDP-11/20 in the next couple of days so I need to make sure everything is okay. Please e-mail me: dylanb@sympatico.ca after you try. Some useful reminders: Hit ^C (Control-C) when you connect so you can abort any program running. type BASIC to run basic... it has some games online. type "BYE" to leave basic. Thanks again! john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com -----Original Message----- From: Jay West To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, March 12, 2000 11:04 AM Subject: HP 2000 TSB question >I finally finished testing out all the memory boards in my two HP2100's. I >was getting misleading results for a long time due to my lack of >understanding of the way the memory subsystem operates - it has to be tested >in a very specific non-intuitive (and undocumented) way. Turns out I have >four bad boards; three 8K SSA core stacks and one 16K ID board. > >These two systems ran HP2000 Access TSB, and had 32K each. My question is >(before I spend time hunting down replacement boards) does anyone know what >the memory requirements for the main and IOP cpu's in 2000Access is? If I >can get by with less than 32K in each cpu I can forgo getting replacement >boards for the time being and perhaps run with 24/16. > >Any ideas? > >Jay West > > From ryan at inc.net Sun Mar 12 11:06:53 2000 From: ryan at inc.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Can someone here telnet to my 11/35 References: <000601bf8c35$27fb5000$7b2fd1d8@default> Message-ID: <38CBCEAD.1F45A255@inc.net> Pretty cool! }^C . . .? ? ?KMON-F-Illegal command . .help HELP ?KMON-F-File not found . .? ? ?KMON-F-Illegal command . .dir DIR SWAP .SYS 24 24-Mar-78 DYMNSJ.SYS 60 DYMNFB.SYS 71 TT .SYS 2 LP .SYS 2 RK .SYS 2 DT .SYS 2 PC .SYS 2 DM .SYS 4 DX .SYS 2 DY .SYS 3 NL .SYS 2 MM .SYS 9 MT .SYS 8 24-Mar-78 FORMAT.SAV 6 24-Mar-78 PIP .SAV 16 24-Mar-78 DUP .SAV 21 24-Mar-78 DIR .SAV 17 24-Mar-78 RESORC.SAV 12 24-Mar-78 FILEX .SAV 11 24-Mar-78 EDIT .SAV 21 24-Mar-78 MACRO .SAV 45 24-Mar-78 LINK .SAV 29 24-Mar-78 SYSMAC.MAC 36 24-Mar-78 MBOOT .BOT 1 24-Mar-78 MSBOOT.BOT 3 24-Mar-78 INTRST.BAS 2 LIFE2 .BAS 5 LUNAR .BAS 7 ACEYDU.BAS 5 AWARI .BAS 6 MAGIC .BAS 6 MAZE .BAS 8 MARKET.BAS 16 BASIC .SAV 56 SUCNFG.DAT 7 SUCNF1.BAS 7 SUCNF5.BAS 5 SUCNF3.BAS 4 SUCNF4.BAS 4 SUCNF7.BAS 5 SUCNF2.BAS 4 SUCNF6.BAS 5 SUCNFG.BAS 3 SUCVT .BAS 6 SUCVT1.BAS 14 KING .BAS 19 HURKLE.BAS 3 BIOLOT.BAS 0 BIOPLT.BAS 7 KED .SAV 60 05-Nov-80 TESTKD.TXT 1 MMSYG1.COM 10 14-Oct-89 DXSYGN.COM 1 14-Oct-89 MMSYG5.COM 9 14-Oct-89 MMRKSY.COM 2 14-Oct-89 ADVENT.SAV 92 11-Nov-77 ADVTXT.TXT 125 11-Nov-77 58 Files, 915 Blocks 59 Free blocks . .basic BASIC list LIST BASIC-11/RT-11 V02-03 OPTIONAL FUNCTIONS (ALL, NONE, OR INDIVIDUAL)? all ALL he lpADY HELP NONAME 00:46:03 READY READY lo ?SYNTAadX ERROR READY READY l ?SYNTAoX ERROR READY READY John B wrote: > I have set up my terminal server and put a PDP-11/35 with RX02s running > RT11v3.0B on the Internet. > > Please visit this page: http://www.pdp8.com/telnet.htm and click on the > link. > > If someone is already there then you will probably get a connection error. > (soon there will be 7 available ports - only 1 now) > > I will be putting online a PDP-8/S and a PDP-11/20 in the next couple of > days so I need to make sure everything is okay. > > Please e-mail me: dylanb@sympatico.ca after you try. > > Some useful reminders: > Hit ^C (Control-C) when you connect so you can abort any program running. > type BASIC to run basic... it has some games online. > type "BYE" to leave basic. > > Thanks again! > > john > > PDP-8 and other rare mini computers > > http://www.pdp8.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay West > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Sunday, March 12, 2000 11:04 AM > Subject: HP 2000 TSB question > > >I finally finished testing out all the memory boards in my two HP2100's. I > >was getting misleading results for a long time due to my lack of > >understanding of the way the memory subsystem operates - it has to be > tested > >in a very specific non-intuitive (and undocumented) way. Turns out I have > >four bad boards; three 8K SSA core stacks and one 16K ID board. > > > >These two systems ran HP2000 Access TSB, and had 32K each. My question is > >(before I spend time hunting down replacement boards) does anyone know what > >the memory requirements for the main and IOP cpu's in 2000Access is? If I > >can get by with less than 32K in each cpu I can forgo getting replacement > >boards for the time being and perhaps run with 24/16. > > > >Any ideas? > > > >Jay West > > > > -- ------------------------------------------------------- Ryan K. Brooks V: 414-908-9000 ryan@inc.net F: 707-885-4944 Time Warner Telecom / Internet and Data Division From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Mar 12 11:31:42 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Can someone here telnet to my 11/35 References: <000601bf8c35$27fb5000$7b2fd1d8@default> Message-ID: <38CBD47E.7895EED4@idirect.com> >John B wrote: > I have set up my terminal server and put a PDP-11/35 with RX02s running > RT11v3.0B on the Internet. > > Please visit this page: http://www.pdp8.com/telnet.htm and click on the > link. > > If someone is already there then you will probably get a connection error. > (soon there will be 7 available ports - only 1 now) > > I will be putting online a PDP-8/S and a PDP-11/20 in the next couple of > days so I need to make sure everything is okay. > > Please e-mail me: dylanb@sympatico.ca after you try. > > Some useful reminders: > Hit ^C (Control-C) when you connect so you can abort any program running. > type BASIC to run basic... it has some games online. > type "BYE" to leave basic. > > Thanks again! > > john > > PDP-8 and other rare mini computers > > http://www.pdp8.com Jerome Fine replies: Seems to work well, John, within the limitations of what is available in V3.0B, of course. Thanks very much. I tried to run EDIT.SAV without much success. I would also like to do a SYSGEN, but all the MAC files are missing. But, what you have there is amazing in itself. GREAT!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Mar 12 11:50:42 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Compact QBus Systems (Was re: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's...) In-Reply-To: <0f5501bf8c2e$5437cab0$a652e780@L166>; from dburrows@netpath.net on Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 08:14:19AM -0500 References: <0f5501bf8c2e$5437cab0$a652e780@L166> Message-ID: <20000312125042.A2970@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 08:14:19AM -0500, Daniel T. Burrows wrote: > >What I'm really hoping for is what was I think called a BA23-SE or BA11-SE, > >'twas a desktop 4-slot enclosure, maybe even 4x2? > > > I think what you are looking for is the BA11-MA. Desktop 4 slot Qbus the > same approx. size as a dual TU58. I thought that was the BA11-VA? That's what mine say on them anyway, and yeah they look very much like a TU58, but with a 4x2 18-bit backplane. Easily wire-wrapped to 22 bits, and I hung a piece of perf board with a PIC CPU off of the BEVNT line on one of mine to count a 32 kHz watch xtal down to 60 Hz (since the PSU doesn't drive BEVNT in this box), so that it could boot RSX and RSTS from a Zip drive. All because I couldn't remember what the old chip was that could divide a colorburst xtal down to 60 Hz, Allison has since told me it was the NS5363. *Very* practical box for a PDP-11, it's smaller than a PC even... John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 12 11:52:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: 3rd party board identification In-Reply-To: <20000312073514.A18058@stronghold.xs4all.nl> from "Erik Brens" at Mar 12, 0 07:35:14 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 432 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000312/1031a17b/attachment.ksh From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sun Mar 12 12:07:15 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Icom Attache: What is it? Message-ID: <20000312180715.24472.qmail@hotmail.com> I was doing a little snooping a while back & I came across a computer called the Icom Attache. It sounded like an intresting computer, unfortunately, I can't find anything about it! What is it? Is it an OEM-ed Otrona Attache, a regular PC-Compatible laptop, or is it something completely different? ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 12 12:05:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Compact QBus Systems (Was re: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's...) In-Reply-To: <20000312125042.A2970@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Mar 12, 0 12:50:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1366 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000312/eea9c61d/attachment.ksh From Technoid at cheta.net Sun Mar 12 12:26:04 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Why etc. In-Reply-To: <38CBD47E.7895EED4@idirect.com> Message-ID: <200003121827.NAA00569@lexington.ioa.net> >1: Why do you collect vintage computers? I have been at computing for quite a few years and so nostalgia plays a role. In those early times I was young, had no money, and the gear I collect now would have cost tens of thousands to purchase. So I get to play with the 'Impossible Toy' a little later than I would have liked. These machines come cheap nowadays and in my computing heart-of-hearts the machine is brand new and it is still 1983 or whatever year is appropriate. Challenge is a big thing for me. I don't collect simple machines or ones I know I can't repair as they won't scratch the itch of actually tinkering with and learning a system. I particularly like finding ways to network disparate systems together. It is the first thing I go for once I have a stable system built. Full system backups are another thing I go for right off. The goal for backup is a full bootable, restorable backup which will have everything you need to bring the machine back up after a hard disk swap or a low-level format. >2: Where do you collect vintage computers? Just about everywhere. Computer Parts Barn for all kinds of minicomputer stuff and just about everything else. Often the machines are 'donated' by people who have a glimmer of appreciation for them and so for why I collect, restore, and USE them. I think they get a kick out of knowing thier arcane computer gear is still alive and thriving in my basement, living room, bathroom, bedroom, dining room.... I scope the thrift stores at irregular intervals and keep an eye out for discarded/neglected computer gear. I like 80's micros quite a bit and would like a full-blown COCO system very much so I have my eyes peeled for one. Trading is something I have allways done but its hard when we are all so geographically scattered. I envy the folks in California one thing and that is community. They have a dense enough population to be organized at retro/vintage computing. The same goes for those wierdos in Rhode Island ;-) >3: What advice would you give someone just starting out collecting? 1) Think twice if it does not function. Fixing it is gonna be a bitch. It also may be part of the fun! 2) You can never have enough paper towels, windex, ScotchBrite, screws, shunts, ajax, Iso Alcohol, sponges, paper for notes, space, light, outlets, patience, powerbars, wire, pens, media, test equipment, smarts. 3) Allways note the power requirements for a big system. You might save yourself a ton of effort moving it if you discover you can't provide power for it. 4) Examine unlabeled media before re-using it. It may have something COOL on it you want. 5) Red pencil erasors are excellent for cleaning card edge connectors. 6) Make full-system backups continuously and religiously whenever there is significant change. Preferably on more than one media type. 7) Realize that even if the machine was a gift it may cost you to get it running or to provide a function you want. Even retro computing costs money. Sometimes lots. 8) You do not need a scanning electron microscope, a side scan infrared camera, a missile guidence computer, or any other boondoggle. Especially if you are married and value your privalege of taking up every spare nook with your hobby. Sun4 yes, standing room only no. 9) You don't need a clean-room to fix an old hard drive, just a Clean Room. Don't smoke while you are inside it and monitor it like a hawk if you intend to use it for any extended period after repairs. 10) Is documentation available? It may also cost you and you may not be going anywhere without it. 11) Can you get boot media and IPL media for it? If not it will just sit there and look pretty to others but you will KNOW it is dead every time you look at it. Some collectors don't mind but I can't stand a dead machine. >Extra credit: I'd be really interested to hear what computers people >collect (e.g., micros or minis, brands, age range) I collect 70's and 80's micros and 80's/90's minicomputers, workstations, mainframes if feasable. Atari 8-bits: 130xe 1200xl 800xl 600xl 800 400 several duplicates related peripherals and software several duplicates Atari 16/32 bits: 1040st (1mb ram) (two of them) Mega ST4 (4mb running MiNT with 2gb scsi hard disk) related peripherals and software (slim) CP/M 8bits: Kaypro II SWP ATR8000 SWP ATR8500 (serial # 5 !!!) Bet no one has hear about this machine. Any takers on that bet? Data General: MV4000DC Minicomputer, 8mb, 120mb+70mb, 16 line terminal controller, tape drives etc. Networked via ethernet and tcp/ip. Operating systems experience, and (maybe) documentation: All the many mutually compatible DOSes for the Atari 8-bit including Spartados and Spartados X, MyDOS, TopDos, DOS XL, DOS 4, DOS 3, DOS XE. TOS, MiNT, SUSE Linux, RedHat Linux, Yggdrasil Linux, Slackware Linux, Mandrake Linux, Caldera Linux, SCO Unix 5, AOS/VS, AOS/VS II, OS/2, Solaris, Novell Netware, Windows 3.x, Windows 9x, Windows NT, MSDOS, various MSDOS clones, CP/M v2.2, MPM, CP/M86, Pick, Prodos, Concurrent CP/M, Concurrent DOS, OS/9, Minix, SUNOS, OS/2 Warp Server, GEM, CP/M68k, Nova/MV ADES/ADEX ( a tape-based diagnostic OS ), MTOS ( a multitasking OS on Mostek 6502 ), a little MACOS, a little AmigaDOS and Workbench 'sticktime', various other BSD-derived Unices, Windows CE (not much to it). Probably a couple more I missed. Your mileage may vary from OS to OS as to skill level but I can install all of the installable ones and network all the networkable ones and do normal system chores on all of them. Hear me roar. Operating systems I would like to know or know better: All of them but particularly; SUNOS and Solaris on Sparc (my sticktime is on x86 platform), Windows NT on Alpha, OS400, MacOSX, MiNT (would like to have FPU, MMU, and virtual memory), Linux on 68k, DG/UX on my MV machine or an Aviion, MPM (MultiUser CP/M) - I don't have a multi-cp/m machine - my sticktime was on a friend's machine, MV ADEX v12 and up (anyone know the algorithm used to calculate the key?), AIX, OS/2 for Power PC, Ultrix. I would also like a Coleco ADAM. Thanks for asking. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From Technoid at cheta.net Sun Mar 12 12:29:49 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Collecting Data General FAQ In-Reply-To: <38CBD47E.7895EED4@idirect.com> Message-ID: <200003121855.NAA06604@lexington.ioa.net> So ya wanna get that DG machine running? Here are some quick pointers. I will follow with more. The MV4000 series machines have a babylon of disks, tapes etc. They all come together but you need to know a few things. A multifunction controller is a micro-eclipse machine which means you have to have microcode for it to work. This is provided in the form of an IPL program on floppy or tape. This is called the IOCB Emulator and is required to use io devices. It is loaded from the hard disk or from the default boot device as indicated to the controller via a dip switch setting on the controller itself and is an octal device code such as 24,62,22 etc. The IOCB emulator can be run from the boot media or from an installed copy on the hard disk in an area which is very special and cannot be accessed in any other way by the operating system or otherwise. Restart from power off Now you have a DG Nova 1200 16bit mini and a prompt which allows you to examine memory etc. Insert your second IPL disk or tape marked "Microcode". This is another program run by booting from the device it is in. Lets assume 9track tape at device code 62. Mount the microcode media and Enter "62L" case sensitive. The machine will load the microcode installer program and give you a menu. You can install the microcode to the hard disk if it has been high-level formatted. The traditional place is called 1001 and is a 'user area' inside but not accessible to the filesystem. It will also copy a filesystem legal version to the root dir of your hard disk and will appear as MV4000.MCF or other for other CPU. If you hard disk is not formatted for an operating system then just load the microcode. We will write it to disk later. Now you have an eclipse 32 bit machine and a slightly better but very similar command line called the SCP-CLI which allows you to boot from devices, examine and change memory etc. Now mount your OS install tape and enter "B 62" or substitute whatever device code your media is mounted on. The install will load and you will be on your way to the Disk Jockey program for AOS/VS (II) where you can prep your disk. The buss type for hard drives and such is tough to describe. Basicly if you have an Eclipse (MV series) machine your bus type is ECL. Now that you have prepped your hard disk you can chose another option in DJ that loads LOAD_II and reads from your install media. You can also use the Microcode installer to copy your microcode from whatever media to the 1001 user area. If all else fails, exit to the SCP-CLI via the Control-Esc key sequence and boot from the microcode install media and use it's installer to get the microcode on the hard disk. If you cannot get the IOCB emulator installed then you may need to low-level the drive. For this you need something called NOVA/MV ADES or MV ADEX. These are the diagnostic media and contain an operating system, microcode and everything else needed to diagnose the machine but possibly the microcode and certainly the IOCB emulator microcode. You may need to load these into memory first to run diags. Depends on the version and build of the diags. If it is DG and a big tape it is likely there is SCP but not IOCB microcode on the tape. If it is a small (short) tape, it is likely tailored for a given system and so may not be terribly useful. Ask me and I will help. There is no one program for it. You have to know the model number of the drive and which program to load to format it. ADES/ADEX is a bitch. Reel tapes are not formatted so just mount and go. Cart tapes vary but if it is dc300 or dc6150 they are not so mount and go. Floppys are formatted and so you are out of luck as my drive reads fine but formatting is kicking my ass. This is a problem because my IPL stuff is on floppy..... -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sun Mar 12 13:05:48 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Why etc. In-Reply-To: <200003121827.NAA00569@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Mar 2000 Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > 2) You can never have enough paper towels, windex, ScotchBrite, screws, > shunts, ajax, Iso Alcohol, sponges, paper for notes, space, light, > outlets, patience, powerbars, wire, pens, media, test equipment, smarts. ...band-aids, poison-control number, tetanus shot... From red at bears.org Sun Mar 12 13:47:05 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Why etc. In-Reply-To: <200003121827.NAA00569@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Mar 2000 Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > 5) Red pencil erasors are excellent for cleaning card edge connectors. I was told that red pencil erasers should never be used as they sulfur compounds, and to use instead a natural gum rubber or white plastic eraser. ok r. From dburrows at netpath.net Sun Mar 12 14:38:17 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Compact QBus Systems (Was re: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's...) Message-ID: <003f01bf8c63$0d672e20$a652e780@L166> >> > I think what you are looking for is the BA11-MA. Desktop 4 slot Qbus the >> > same approx. size as a dual TU58. >> >> I thought that was the BA11-VA? That's what mine say on them anyway, > >Yes, I thought it was the BA11-V as well. > >> and yeah they look very much like a TU58, but with a 4x2 18-bit backplane. OK you got my curiosity up as I was going by my memory. I just looked both the BA11-V and the BA11-MA up in the microfiche as I sold the last BA11-MA I had 6 to 9 months ago. The -MA is a quad wide, 4 slot card cage (H9270A backplane with the H780A power supply) -MA is 115v and -MB is 230v The other variants are -ME 115v, -MF 230v, -MH 115v w/ no logo, -MJ 230v w/ no logo. The BA11-V is dual wide 4 slot card cage with the H9281BA backplane. I have not had one of these but I have had several of the -MA's. The BA11-MA's supply looks to have a smaller footprint than the BA11-V. As best as I can tell from the fiche. I do know the -MA's are physically close to a dual TU58EX. At most a couple inches larger. Dan From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 12 14:47:01 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Why etc. In-Reply-To: <200003121827.NAA00569@lexington.ioa.net> References: <38CBD47E.7895EED4@idirect.com> Message-ID: Jeffrey S. Worley >Operating systems I would like to know or know better: > >the algorithm used to calculate the key?), AIX, OS/2 for Power PC, Ultrix. FYI, OS/2 on PPC was never publicly released. IBM had a whole warehouse full of machines ready for it , don't know what happened to the machines. BTW, the coolist setup I ever saw along those lines was one of the first ThinkPads at FOSE trade show in DC, probably in mid '93. It was running AIX and OS/2 on top a Microkernel. There was some talk about this in magazines such as Byte, but sadly it was scrapped. The plan was to have it so that you could run basically any OS on top of the microkernel. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From go at ao.com Sun Mar 12 14:46:23 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Some old documentation available. Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000312114614.01a60d10@buffy.ao.com> A friend was cleaning out his garage this weekend and came up with a few boxes of manuals (no software, alas) that may be of some interest here. The manuals are free (you pay postage) but I would like to entertain trades for other documentation, where possible. Of course, I'll simply accept "karma points" for later use if you don't have anything tasty right now (but I do have a good memory...) Contact me off-list to make arrangements. First-come first served. Decision of the judges is final. No refunds. Some segments may be missing. The list can be found at: http://www.ao.com/~go/doclist.txt Briefly the list includes a set of RT-11 V5 orange binders, some VT100 docs, some Emulex docs, some TSX-11 manuals and some miscellany. (Miscellany includes a "service manual" for an Osborne computer - I *think* Osborne 1.) As I said, there is ONLY documentation - no software (I guess I was too late in asking...) But at least these got saved. If you have trouble accessing this site, let me know and I'll email a copy of the two lists. I've also posted my "want list" under http://www.ao.com/~go/wantlist.txt -Gary From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Sun Mar 12 15:38:36 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Why etc. In-Reply-To: ; from Zane H. Healy on Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 12:47:01PM -0800 References: <38CBD47E.7895EED4@idirect.com> <200003121827.NAA00569@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <20000312143835.I13488@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 12:47:01PM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > FYI, OS/2 on PPC was never publicly released. IBM had a whole warehouse Yeah I remember it being demo'd at Comdex in 1995 though. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 12 13:15:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Why etc. In-Reply-To: <200003121827.NAA00569@lexington.ioa.net> from "Technoid@cheta.net" at Mar 12, 0 01:26:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 7023 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000312/e98068d8/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Sun Mar 12 16:02:17 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Icom Attache: What is it? In-Reply-To: <20000312180715.24472.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, David Vohs wrote: Can you give us a description, David? - don > I was doing a little snooping a while back & I came across a computer called > the Icom Attache. It sounded like an intresting computer, unfortunately, I > can't find anything about it! What is it? Is it an OEM-ed Otrona Attache, a > regular PC-Compatible laptop, or is it something completely different? > ____________________________________________________________ > David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. > > Computer Collection: > > "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. > "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. > "Delorean": TI-99/4A. > "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. > "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. > ____________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 12 16:10:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Compact QBus Systems (Was re: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's...) Message-ID: <200003122210.RAA03733@world.std.com> ALSO, the unit is VERY under powered. The DEC specs say only 16 amps <> on the 5 volts which also includes the video interface and the AVO optio <> if you want a full screen 132 character display. I suggest that if you u <> a Quad 11/73 with the RQDX3, you are probably OK. But not much else. < I am looking for detailed information on the TMS-7000 microcontroller from Texas Instruments. On the web information on this processor is very scarce. Among the many things I do is maintaining a web site for a Dutch Amateur Radio museum. This museum sometimes receives old rigs from the national PTT, so they can sell them to licenced radio amateurs. This way the PTT does not have to scrap them, and the homebrewers get quality rigs cheap, and the museum gets some well needed money. This time the rigs are somewhat modern, they are controlled by the TMS-7000. Rewriting the firmware of this rig should be enough to get it to work on amateur frequencies. The museum already has a pledge from someone willing to undertake this task, but he needs documentation on the processor. There is already documentation about the rig, but this only covers the radio part of the set, not the computer part. Does anyone have detailed info on the TMS-7000, like instruction set, appnotes, etc? This would be a great help. Thanks in advance. Kees. -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ My home page (old computers,music,photography) http://www.vaxarchive.org/ Info on old DEC VAX computers Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 12 18:06:37 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:08 2005 Subject: Why etc. Message-ID: <200003130006.TAA04540@world.std.com> <> 5) Red pencil erasors are excellent for cleaning card edge connectors. < Hi, Well for what it's worth, IBM still offers a bunch of random ancient manuals through the POS (publication ordering system), at http://www.elink.ibmlink.ibm.com/public/applications/publications/cgibin/pbi.cgi? That's one nasty address, isn't it? ;p Anyway, I was searching around in there, and among other things, I ordered "IBM 360 model 67 functional characteristics" (GA27-2719). I'm going to call other vendors when I have time, I wanna see if I can get some 470 manuals from Amdahl, for instance. Unfortunately, I can't find the rest of the docs I need for my 8100's or for DPPX/SP, odd that I can't get manuals less than 20 years old but can get 360 manuals... Also, I know this will interest some of the list; assorted card punch manuals are available too. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From stevemas at persys.com Sun Mar 12 16:27:01 2000 From: stevemas at persys.com (Steve Mastrianni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:08 2005 Subject: Why etc. In-Reply-To: References: <200003121827.NAA00569@lexington.ioa.net> <38CBD47E.7895EED4@idirect.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000312172258.00bde160@persys.com> The PPC machines were thrown in the large dumpster just outside the loading dock in Boca. The uK was one of those ideas that looked great on paper, but practically never made sense. There were dozens of major issues which made OS24PPC still born. --Steve At 12:47 PM 3/12/00 -0800, you wrote: >Jeffrey S. Worley > >Operating systems I would like to know or know better: > > > >the algorithm used to calculate the key?), AIX, OS/2 for Power PC, Ultrix. > >FYI, OS/2 on PPC was never publicly released. IBM had a whole warehouse >full of machines ready for it , don't know what happened to the >machines. > >BTW, the coolist setup I ever saw along those lines was one of the first >ThinkPads at FOSE trade show in DC, probably in mid '93. It was running >AIX and OS/2 on top a Microkernel. There was some talk about this in >magazines such as Byte, but sadly it was scrapped. The plan was to have it >so that you could run basically any OS on top of the microkernel. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | - Steve Mastrianni From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Mar 12 20:19:35 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:08 2005 Subject: Made the Paper Message-ID: <00b301bf8c92$94e03a20$48711fd1@default> The local Saint Paul Pioneer Press is running a story about my computer collection in this Monday's Tech Section of the paper. I spent two parts of two days with the reporter and another day getting my picture taken with a few items from the collection. I will try and scan it in and put it on my web site as soon as I get it up. Had a very good weekend and will writing up my finds on Monday. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000312/76726f6d/attachment.html From dburrows at netpath.net Sun Mar 12 20:22:38 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:08 2005 Subject: Compact QBus Systems (Was re: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's...) Message-ID: <00e901bf8c94$5797d540$a652e780@L166> > >The footprint of the MA has to be larger or its taller. The quad backplane >is the size of the BA11VA! If you have the quad wide backplane then the >power supply will cube out the BA11-VA case. I'm looking at the VA as I >write. and the dual wide backplane fills half the case and the PS is the >other half. The H780 supply is about 3 inches wide IIRC and mounts beside the card cage. That would make it a couple inches wider than the TU58EX. Dan From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Mar 12 20:41:42 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Dayton Computerfest finds Message-ID: <20000313024142.25537.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> At the Hara Arena in Dayton, there are three events per year that relate to this list: the Hamfest in May and the Computerfest in March and August. I only went Sunday this year as opposed to my traditional Saturday. Since I didn't go for modern PC parts, I found the selection to be sparser than ever. Scattered throughout the back rooms there were the piles of $3 to $5 boards of various vintages. I did manage to get a pair of DEC-Tulip-chipset 10/100 cards for $3 each and a wad of Microchannel boards (Ethernet and SCSI) for someone else in a $15 "all you can stuff bag". Besides a few cards, the only interesting thing I picked up was an Apple QuickTake 150 digital camera with external battery pack and PSU for $35. One drawback: it came with a PC cable (DIN-8 to DE-9) and I only have the Mac software. The Mac cable is typically grey with an icon molded into both ends of a pair of arrows pointing opposite directions and a stretched "S" line between them indicating that it's a crossover cable. I do have the pinouts for the camera, but if I were to make a cable, I'm not sure what all the matchups are for RS-422. The Apple Technote pages show how to make a PC cable, but that's the one I already have. So... does anyone out there have a Mac "null-modem" cable they'd like to get rid of? Alternately, does anyone have the PC software? It's for Win3.1, but at least I'd be able to dump the camera. Thanks, -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sun Mar 12 21:09:15 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Dayton Computerfest finds In-Reply-To: <20000313024142.25537.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No extra cable...but I do have the RS422 standard pinout handy, this is the one I used to make my null-modem cable: Pin Function ------------------ 1 handshake out (DTR?) 2 handshake in (RTS?) 3 TD- 4 GND 5 RD- 6 TD+ 7 GPinput (carrier detect) 8 RD+ On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > So... does anyone out there have a Mac "null-modem" cable they'd like to get > rid of? Alternately, does anyone have the PC software? It's for Win3.1, but > at least I'd be able to dump the camera. From Glenatacme at aol.com Sun Mar 12 21:53:31 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: The C programming language Message-ID: Megan wrote: > Unfortunately, it appears that those who advocate and write in C > and other such structured languages appear to have lost the ability > to comment their code (at least it seems that way from all the code > I look at at work -- I would say a mere 5% is really commented). > > They appear to assume that C code is itself sufficient commenting... > > It doesn't work. This may well be true, but C programmers are not the only offenders. The worst period of my career was converting COBOL gorilla-code to C. The unstructured, uncommented COBOL code was in some cases so indecipherable that I simply dug out the original spec and threw the COBOL away. Unfortunately, this wasn't always possible . . . I myself heavily comment my C code, since I have to maintain it and can't always rely on my failing memory ;>) Glen Goodwin 0/0 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Mar 12 22:04:01 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Dayton Computerfest finds Message-ID: <20000313040401.3029.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > No extra cable...but I do have the RS422 standard pinout handy... I've got the pinout of the camera from the Apple tech support web site. What I was confused about is what signals get wired to what signals for RS-422. I've been making RS-232 cables for 10 years, but without a cable diagram, I've never made a Mac cable. > > On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > So... does anyone out there have a Mac "null-modem" cable they'd like to > > get rid of? I've also found out that this *exact* cable (down to the icon) is used to connect a Newton to a Mac. Any Newt users out there (in the States, Hans ;-) that have a source for cables? ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 12 22:04:38 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Compact QBus Systems (Was re: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's...) Message-ID: <200003130404.XAA08884@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200003130505.AAA13485@lexington.ioa.net> You know as well as I do what hell some of these machines lived in an how robust they really are. A red erasor is not going to do anything negative to a 'finger' on a board. I have my 130xe for 15 years and have used an erasor at least 30 times on various boards. No impact other than to solve spurious flaky problems. The reason why I like the red ones is for thier mild abrasive quality. The softer ones don't take off the oxide. In , on 03/13/00 at 12:03 AM, "r. 'bear' stricklin" said: >On Sun, 12 Mar 2000 Technoid@cheta.net wrote: >> 5) Red pencil erasors are excellent for cleaning card edge connectors. >I was told that red pencil erasers should never be used as they sulfur >compounds, and to use instead a natural gum rubber or white plastic >eraser. >ok >r. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From Technoid at cheta.net Sun Mar 12 23:57:26 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Computer Parts Barn In-Reply-To: <001801bf8302$d7e2c700$9926d1d8@default> Message-ID: <200003130604.BAA23184@lexington.ioa.net> You can get just about anything from: Computer Parts Barn 16 London Rd Asheville, NC 28803 828-274-5963 Ed Kirby - the owner has tons of replacement parts for all kinds of machines. If he does not have the part he will aquire it somehow. It will cost you some to get whatever it is. Expect that but call. He has several 8-bitmicros you all would kill for and minicomputers and peripherals galore for the rest. Can anyone say Imsai 8080, Pet, Aim 65, Sol 20? IBM DEC Data General Commodore Plexus Lots of others. If you need a board, give Ed a call. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From Technoid at cheta.net Mon Mar 13 00:23:16 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Run my Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <20000313040401.3029.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200003130639.BAA27696@lexington.ioa.net> Unfortunately I have a dynamic Ip address. I will publish this address frequently over the next two weeks. Depending on the traffic I receive I will contiune, expand or wipe the program. You can telnet to my proxy machine which has a dynamic IP. Right now it is 205.138.39.207 Your Password is xcart you can then telnet to 192.168.0.25 which is my Data General MV4000DC minicomputer. hit enter to get a login prompt OP is your login name CHRISSY is your password you should issue a SUPERUSER ON command if your terminal looks funky issue an CHAR/XLT command you can view BIG help by issueing an TYPE :phrackaos.txt or Type :phrackaosvs1.txt both these files will make you expert at AOS thanks to god knows who. play with the computer. For short, : is the delimeter between files dir is equivalent to cd under msdos FILESTATUS is equivalent to DIR in msdos and can be truncated to F. Example: Filestatus returns a dir of all files in the default dir as does: F returns the same thing TELNET, FTP, and SMTP work to most requirments though SMTP is still scetchy. the format is the same as unix or any other command line unix utility. dir : will get you to the root dir of the runtime drive Thanks to Carl Friend for his testing the system last week. To all, he an his wife are great and knowlegeable people. The Ip Adress will change fairly often. I will publish those changes when the machines are online with the subject header MUTANT01 IP = xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx Have a great night. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Mar 13 00:48:21 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Icom Attache: What is it? In-Reply-To: <20000312180715.24472.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000312224821.03ffc220@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:07 PM 3/12/00 GMT, you wrote: >I was doing a little snooping a while back & I came across a computer called >the Icom Attache. It sounded like an intresting computer, unfortunately, I >can't find anything about it! What is it? Is it an OEM-ed Otrona Attache, a >regular PC-Compatible laptop, or is it something completely different? >____________________________________________________________ >David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Well... if it is the unit I am thinking of, (and I have an Otrona Attache and they are nothing alike) this should be a unit about the size of an electric typewriter, vaguely resembling one with a tan (I think) humpback case, and a keyboard on the (lowered) front. On the rear various connectors for power, video, probably a serial port or two... Close? Ok. For the internals, you will find an S-100 backplane usually populated with MITS cards and an ICOM disk controller. This was one of the last gasp attempts to 'civilize' (or should that be 'sanitize'?) the S-100 buss based system for the masses. Soon after Pertec has acquired (enveloped?) both ICOM and MITS, they released this beast in an attempt to compete for the market targeted by Processor Technology with the SOL. Initially (IIRC) released under the MITS brand, it was also released with an ICOM brand hoping to trade on the ICOM name. Neither attempt seemed to work very well... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From vcf at siconic.com Mon Mar 13 00:49:04 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: More stuff for the cost of shipping Message-ID: More stuff from this guy is available. Please reply directly to the sender. Reply-to: 3web@netscape.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 12 Mar 00 19:57:28 MST From: Walter Brown <3web@netscape.net> Subject: Re: [Re: C-64] Hi, Sellam, Thanks, loads. I have received 4 replies and can probably find a home for my c-64 stuff. I also have a Radio Shack 286 (Tandy 1000 TL/3) with internal hard drive, 3-1/4 and 5-1/2 floppy drives, monitor, Deskmate O/S with disks, DOS disks, manuals, magazines (many issues of DOS Resource Guide) and (I thought) a printer, altho I don't see the printer at this moment. Will donate to anyone paying the postage. If you wouldn't mind posting this also, I would appreciate it very much. Is there anything I can do for you? I am located in Denver, Co. Thanks again for your help. Walt Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From Technoid at cheta.net Mon Mar 13 00:47:14 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Religious Experience at Computer Parts Barn In-Reply-To: <200003130604.BAA23184@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <200003130652.BAA28906@lexington.ioa.net> The other day I was just pokeing in one of the warehouses. I picked up this translucent board which looked like core ram initially. I showed it to Ed who indicated that it was a memory 'board' but that I should look at it more closely on it's axis. Rotating the board to allow the light to shine through it along it's flat axis revealed a Forest of RUBY RODS wired somewhat like ferric core. I was impressed. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 13 01:00:28 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question Message-ID: Anyone know if it's possible to fit DOS, a PDP-11 emulator and an RL02 image in 16MB? Here is why I'm asking: http://www.linux-hacker.net/iopener/ Am I the only person crazy enough to want to turn one of these into a modern PDP-11 :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kevinm at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Mon Mar 13 01:17:03 2000 From: kevinm at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question References: Message-ID: <001701bf8cbc$21e8d2f0$8700a8c0@xpuppy> Is this device still available? The page refers to $$99 from circuit city. (If so I will be taking one home after my US visit next week!!) Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: Zane H. Healy To: Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 7:00 AM Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question > Anyone know if it's possible to fit DOS, a PDP-11 emulator and an RL02 > image in 16MB? Here is why I'm asking: > http://www.linux-hacker.net/iopener/ > > Am I the only person crazy enough to want to turn one of these into a > modern PDP-11 :^) > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 13 01:39:41 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Dayton Computerfest finds In-Reply-To: Aaron Christopher Finney "Re: Dayton Computerfest finds" (Mar 12, 19:09) References: Message-ID: <10003130739.ZM2267@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 12, 19:09, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > No extra cable...but I do have the RS422 standard pinout handy, this is > the one I used to make my null-modem cable: > > Pin Function > ------------------ > 1 handshake out (DTR?) > 2 handshake in (RTS?) > 3 TD- > 4 GND > 5 RD- > 6 TD+ > 7 GPinput (carrier detect) > 8 RD+ Almost right -- pin 2 is CTS not RTS: Pin Function ------------------ 1 HSKo (DTR) 2 HSKi (CTS) 3 TxD- 4 GND 5 RxD- 6 TxD+ 7 GPi (DCD) 8 RxD+ For a Mac-to-Newton cable, the interconnections are: Ground (4) -> Ground (4) (also connect to connectors' shrouds) Transmit+ (6) -> Receive+ (8) Transmit- (3) -> Receive- (5) Receive+ (8) -> Transmit+ (6) Receive- (5) -> Transmit- (3) Data Term Ready (1) -> Clear To Send (2) Clear To Send (2) -> Data Term Ready (1) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Mar 13 02:09:05 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: ; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 11:00:28PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20000313030905.A4654@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 11:00:28PM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Anyone know if it's possible to fit DOS, a PDP-11 emulator and an RL02 > image in 16MB? Definitely! With several MB to spare. > Here is why I'm asking: > http://www.linux-hacker.net/iopener/ Is the $99 for real? Looks like a pretty sweet machine, even if they soldered the IDE connector on the wrong side of the PCB! > Am I the only person crazy enough to want to turn one of these into a > modern PDP-11 :^) Nope, it would be cool! Geez that reminds me, for *eons* I've been meaning to set up a little Am386 SBC a friend traded me, to run E11 off the flash disk, the whole thing including the case is about the size of a floppy drive. Too many projects, no time... John Wilson D Bit From marvin at rain.org Mon Mar 13 02:21:58 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Why etc. References: <200003130006.TAA04540@world.std.com> Message-ID: <38CCA526.D9FB98C0@rain.org> Allison J Parent wrote: > > None should be used unless extreme measures are required. The gold > plating is only 100u and can be rubbed right off. If you wear through 100 microinches is pretty thick gold and was perhaps more likely to be used on older boards. From the time I got involved with the printed circuit industry (1977), the standard has been more like 30 - 50 microinches. From marvin at rain.org Mon Mar 13 02:31:02 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Red Erasors References: <200003130505.AAA13485@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <38CCA746.8E043DF9@rain.org> Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > > You know as well as I do what hell some of these machines lived in an how > robust they really are. A red erasor is not going to do anything negative > to a 'finger' on a board. I have my 130xe for 15 years and have used an > erasor at least 30 times on various boards. No impact other than to solve > spurious flaky problems. The reason why I like the red ones is for thier > mild abrasive quality. The softer ones don't take off the oxide. Gosh, I didn't realize gold oxidized :). Second, while I also use erasors to clean gold fingers, I would fully expect any abrasive material to remove some of the gold. How much? Darned if I know. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Mar 13 03:06:20 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Red Erasors In-Reply-To: <38CCA746.8E043DF9@rain.org>; from marvin@rain.org on Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 12:31:02AM -0800 References: <200003130505.AAA13485@lexington.ioa.net> <38CCA746.8E043DF9@rain.org> Message-ID: <20000313040620.A4849@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 12:31:02AM -0800, Marvin wrote: > Gosh, I didn't realize gold oxidized :). Second, while I also use erasors to > clean gold fingers, I would fully expect any abrasive material to remove > some of the gold. How much? Darned if I know. Somewhere in the old DEC maintenance fiche there's a discussion about this. They claimed the amount taken off by an eraser was pretty significant (something like 1/10 of the plating each time you rub it down with the eraser, but maybe they were a tad enthusiastic in their tests) and so it was a really bad idea, they had some vile chemical that they wanted the FS folks to use instead. John Wilson D Bit From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Mar 13 02:02:23 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Why etc. In-Reply-To: References: <200003121827.NAA00569@lexington.ioa.net> from "Technoid@cheta.net" at Mar 12, 0 01:26:04 pm Message-ID: >> 2) You can never have enough paper towels, windex, ScotchBrite, screws, >> shunts, ajax, Iso Alcohol, sponges, paper for notes, space, light, >> outlets, patience, powerbars, wire, pens, media, test equipment, smarts. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Related to that : Never forget that the best piece of test gear that you own >is your brain. A good brain (== knowing what you're doing) beats any Unfortunately most of the time I don't have a brain available to use, so a big box of spares comes in handy. I was working on a bunch of dirty old systems this weekend and gave wearing a pair of latex gloves a try. Seems like I got poked less, and no question hands were clean at the end. Real test is later this week when I do a batch of cleaning with solvents. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 13 07:17:47 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well RL02 is 10mb so that leaves 6mb for the rest. When you say dos I'll assume PCdos (biggest dos I know) and that likely wants 256-640k the rest is your rooms for emulator. My guess, if done right, yep. Allison On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Anyone know if it's possible to fit DOS, a PDP-11 emulator and an RL02 > image in 16MB? Here is why I'm asking: > http://www.linux-hacker.net/iopener/ > > Am I the only person crazy enough to want to turn one of these into a > modern PDP-11 :^) > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Mar 13 08:33:24 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Dayton Computerfest finds In-Reply-To: <20000313040401.3029.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200003131334.OAA28954@mail2.siemens.de> > > > So... does anyone out there have a Mac "null-modem" cable they'd like to > > > get rid of? > I've also found out that this *exact* cable (down to the icon) is used to > connect a Newton to a Mac. Any Newt users out there (in the States, Hans ;-) > that have a source for cables? You're right, thats exactly the cable you need (I use one of my Newt cables to connect a Mac via SLIP to a unix box to jump via LAN into a second linux box acting as ISDN router :). Since these cables are scary rare, I'd apreciate any reasonable priced source - so, Ethan, if you go for an order, I'd like to participate. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Mar 13 08:32:03 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Dayton Computerfest finds Message-ID: <20000313143203.11228.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > For a Mac-to-Newton cable, the interconnections are: > > Ground (4) -> Ground (4) (also connect to connectors' shrouds) > Transmit+ (6) -> Receive+ (8) > Transmit- (3) -> Receive- (5) > Receive+ (8) -> Transmit+ (6) > Receive- (5) -> Transmit- (3) > Data Term Ready (1) -> Clear To Send (2) > Clear To Send (2) -> Data Term Ready (1) Bingo! Thanks. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Mar 13 08:55:11 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pretty cool, huh? I meant to post this to the list as a postscript note to the Children's Computers thread of a couple days ago. 99 bucks for a P180 that can be *easily* modified to hold a 2 1/2" HD and can run Linux out of the box? Perfect... Aaron On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Anyone know if it's possible to fit DOS, a PDP-11 emulator and an RL02 > image in 16MB? Here is why I'm asking: > http://www.linux-hacker.net/iopener/ > > Am I the only person crazy enough to want to turn one of these into a > modern PDP-11 :^) > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Mar 13 08:57:14 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Red Erasors References: <200003130505.AAA13485@lexington.ioa.net> <38CCA746.8E043DF9@rain.org> Message-ID: <38CD01C9.EACCC529@bigfoot.com> If you dip a eraser in regular rubbing alcohol (or denatured) it will act much like polishing compound, cleaning oxides, airborne dirt and particles (ie tar/nicotine) off copper, gold, etc contacts and traces without any weardown of the area. I've rebuilt Decision Data/HP video data terminal keyboards after spills and general filthy use and a white/gray eraser dipped in alcohol cleaned it and left even the mylar unscratched whereas a dry one shows wear scratches in the mylar and will eventually take the printed traces off the mylar. It works equally well on relay contacts where you can open them enough to get the tip of the eraser in between. The obvious thing is that the circuit has to be off and any capacitive buildup removed or it will light you up.... Marvin wrote: > Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > > > > You know as well as I do what hell some of these machines lived in an how > > robust they really are. A red erasor is not going to do anything negative > > to a 'finger' on a board. I have my 130xe for 15 years and have used an > > erasor at least 30 times on various boards. No impact other than to solve > > spurious flaky problems. The reason why I like the red ones is for thier > > mild abrasive quality. The softer ones don't take off the oxide. > > Gosh, I didn't realize gold oxidized :). Second, while I also use erasors to > clean gold fingers, I would fully expect any abrasive material to remove > some of the gold. How much? Darned if I know. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 13 08:46:02 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: The C programming language In-Reply-To: <200003111839.TAA18197@mail2.siemens.de> References: <64.e78897.25f9e04f@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000313083943.022bf100@pc> At 07:39 PM 3/11/00 +0001, Hans Franke wrote: >Lets take >(the often used - but realy simple) example of string handling. >Let's assume you want to move a 10 byte string. C strings are >by definition byte orientated and terminated by a byte containing >the NIL code (x'00'). Well, that's the way the string.h functions define strings of text characters. You can define your own string functions quite easily of course, and nothing forces you to use string.h. In fact, for any project of moderate size especially if you desire portability, I'd recommend at least wrappering the string.h functions as well as any other standard C libraries. In other words, don't use strcmp(), use your own myStrCmp() or whatever. Then you're free to replace the underlying code function. I'd barely call C strings "strings". They're buffers of chars. To me, a string will always be more BASIC-like, where strings are managed by the functions that operate on them, allowing you to concatenate them without regard to buffer overflow. - John From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Mar 13 09:05:03 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Computer Parts Barn References: <200003130604.BAA23184@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <38CD039F.7A224758@bigfoot.com> Does this guy happen to have an online site possibly (or email addy) we can contact him by? While I've been to Asheville before, it's not necessarily a routine thing for me to go there. You luck out in the fact you live there....I suppose a phone call works too but email is so much more convenient for both parties, and already paid for. Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > You can get just about anything from: > Computer Parts Barn > 16 London Rd > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-274-5963 From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 13 09:13:41 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000313090643.02275d20@pc> At 06:55 AM 3/13/00 -0800, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: >Pretty cool, huh? I meant to post this to the list as a postscript note to >the Children's Computers thread of a couple days ago. 99 bucks for a P180 >that can be *easily* modified to hold a 2 1/2" HD and can run Linux out of >the box? Perfect... It's not clear if you can decline to order the monthly ISP-like Internet dial-up service, at least $21.95/month for the first month, if you buy via their web site. If you can get one for $100 from Circuit City without sign-up for the service, away you go. But it may be that the $100 price is only possible if you pick up a minimum service contract. - John >On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Anyone know if it's possible to fit DOS, a PDP-11 emulator and an RL02 > > image in 16MB? Here is why I'm asking: > > http://www.linux-hacker.net/iopener/ From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Mar 13 09:37:36 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000313090643.02275d20@pc> Message-ID: I'm not sure, but I was under the impression that because it *is* a closed system (to non-hardware types) and only runs their QNX client, it would only be useful to someone using their service. I don't think there's a contract requirement now, but if everyone starts buying these like crazy right now to run linux on them, there will be soon! This was on slashdot.org a couple of days ago...I'm sure this was discussed on there. If I get a chance I'll check it out... On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, John Foust wrote: > At 06:55 AM 3/13/00 -0800, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > >Pretty cool, huh? I meant to post this to the list as a postscript note to > >the Children's Computers thread of a couple days ago. 99 bucks for a P180 > >that can be *easily* modified to hold a 2 1/2" HD and can run Linux out of > >the box? Perfect... > > It's not clear if you can decline to order the monthly ISP-like > Internet dial-up service, at least $21.95/month for the first month, > if you buy via their web site. If you can get one for $100 > from Circuit City without sign-up for the service, away you > go. But it may be that the $100 price is only possible if you > pick up a minimum service contract. > > - John > > > >On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > > Anyone know if it's possible to fit DOS, a PDP-11 emulator and an RL02 > > > image in 16MB? Here is why I'm asking: > > > http://www.linux-hacker.net/iopener/ > > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 13 11:01:48 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The chip in that thing is a Pentium180? Tell me more about this, is the LCD part of it?? Allison On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Pretty cool, huh? I meant to post this to the list as a postscript note to > the Children's Computers thread of a couple days ago. 99 bucks for a P180 > that can be *easily* modified to hold a 2 1/2" HD and can run Linux out of > the box? Perfect... > > Aaron > > On Sun, 12 Mar 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > Anyone know if it's possible to fit DOS, a PDP-11 emulator and an RL02 > > image in 16MB? Here is why I'm asking: > > http://www.linux-hacker.net/iopener/ > > > > Am I the only person crazy enough to want to turn one of these into a > > modern PDP-11 :^) > > > > Zane > > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 13 11:22:40 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Red Erasors Message-ID: <002701bf8d10$bce85880$0400c0a8@winbook> The eraser I always saw recommended was a "pink pearl" which was in commonly available supply at any office supply store. I never bought into the notion that the substance I was removing was "corrosion" for the simple reason that the backplane connectors and the PCB's were gold-plated. Since the eraser always left a clean gold plated edge connector, I quickly concluded it was dirt and not corrosion that was accumulating at the interface between PCB and backplane. I found much less of this occurring in clean environments where dust didn't accumulate in the equipment cabinets, so I did what I thought necessary to exclude dust from all the cabinetry, and, guess what! ... There was much less "corrosion" in the cleaner boxes than in the dirty ones. Dust doesn't cause corrosion, does it? It could cause abrasion, but I doubt that's at the root of these problems. My question would have to be, "How do you clean the backplane connectors? Dick > -----Original Message----- From: John Wilson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, March 13, 2000 2:13 AM Subject: Re: Red Erasors >On Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 12:31:02AM -0800, Marvin wrote: >> Gosh, I didn't realize gold oxidized :). Second, while I also use erasors to >> clean gold fingers, I would fully expect any abrasive material to remove >> some of the gold. How much? Darned if I know. > >Somewhere in the old DEC maintenance fiche there's a discussion about this. >They claimed the amount taken off by an eraser was pretty significant >(something like 1/10 of the plating each time you rub it down with the >eraser, but maybe they were a tad enthusiastic in their tests) and so it >was a really bad idea, they had some vile chemical that they wanted the FS >folks to use instead. > >John Wilson >D Bit From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Mar 13 11:50:36 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question Message-ID: <20000313175036.11208.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > The chip in that thing is a Pentium180? A "WinChip 180" - kinda like a P-180 with extra stuff onboard to implement video on the CPU and use main memory as video memory (kinda like what the Amiga does, but not exactly). It's its own thing designed to reduce part count and manufacturing cost. > Tell me more about this, is the LCD part of it?? Yes. The idea is that you buy their box for cheap and give them $250+ per year in ISP fees, subsidizing the hardware. I'm going to go look at one at CC at lunch and see if you buy the unit over the counter and _then_ sign up when you bring the box home. I expect that they charge $199 at CC and you get $100 off your usage time. Even so, $200 for an integrated box that is reconfigurable isn't bad. I bought a proprietary flat-panel 486 with PCMCIA and one ISA slot for about that (16Mb RAM, 500Mb disk, no floppy but an external floppy connector). This is _much_ more powereful except for the lack of expandability and the lack of a built-in network jack. All I need right now is a source of used DE-620 pocket Ethernet adapters to charge on ahead. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 13 11:57:49 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Red Erasors In-Reply-To: <002701bf8d10$bce85880$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > PCB's were gold-plated. Since the eraser always left a clean gold plated > edge connector, I quickly concluded it was dirt and not corrosion that was > accumulating at the interface between PCB and backplane. I found much less > of this occurring in clean environments where dust didn't accumulate in the Actually it can be corrosion. Good gold plated fingers are gold over nickel over copper and have excellent resistance to wear, corrosion and metal migration. Many however cheap out and do gold over copper, very bad. This gold over copper tends to have problems with the copper ions migrating to the gold surface and turning a bluish-green. Attacking that with abrasives or solvents are temprorary solutions at best ans the copper ions will continue to migrate. This is why the layer of nickel is needed to keep the gold clean. This also depends on the connector being gold/nickle/copper as well or the metal migration happens from the otherside (connector). Adding to that boards with tin(solder) plated connectors and you can effectively posion the connector system. My altair and later replacement WAMCO backplanes suffered this fate from the mixed plated connectors and boards. It showed up after about two years in the slightly salty humid LongIsland air, symptoms were boards must be pulled and plugged back in before the system would run if powered off for more than a few days. I would have to use goldwipes and M50 solvent every few weeks to make it only somewhat stable. Even a film of silicone oil only helped somewhat. Oh, add oil vapor (machine shops), tobacco smoke or other pollutants and the reliability and surface accumulations can be far worse. Allison From elvey at hal.com Mon Mar 13 12:05:03 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Why etc. In-Reply-To: <200003121827.NAA00569@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <200003131805.KAA05246@civic.hal.com> Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > > 10) Is documentation available? It may also cost you and you may not be > going anywhere without it. > > 11) Can you get boot media and IPL media for it? If not it will just sit > there and look pretty to others but you will KNOW it is dead every time > you look at it. Some collectors don't mind but I can't stand a dead > machine. Hi I brought a IMSAI with a strange TTL state machine disk controller back to life without any boot media. I was able to locate schematics for it and then read the PROMs. I made my own mnemonics for it so I could understand what it wanted me to send to is, both port and memory data. It used DMA and may have been one of the earlier DMAs used for disk interfaces on the s100. Still, I wrote some code to format disk and transfer information from memory to and from the disk. I wrote a BIOS for CP/M and created a bootable disk. I now have a working CP/M system. I could have taken a newer disk board and replaced the 8080 with a Z80 board but I wanted it to work as much like the original as I could. I'd rather have had original copies of the code that came with it but one does with what they can get. Dwight From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Mar 13 12:18:02 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Red Erasors In-Reply-To: <002701bf8d10$bce85880$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > My question would have to be, "How do you clean the backplane connectors? I think it was Tony who brought up a punch card soaked in alcohol to clean the backplane connectors. Mildly abrasive, doesn't leave anything behind. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 13 12:35:44 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Red Erasors Message-ID: <002001bf8d1a$f182a3c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, March 13, 2000 11:12 AM Subject: Re: Red Erasors >> PCB's were gold-plated. Since the eraser always left a clean gold plated >> edge connector, I quickly concluded it was dirt and not corrosion that was >> accumulating at the interface between PCB and backplane. I found much less >> of this occurring in clean environments where dust didn't accumulate in the > >Actually it can be corrosion. Good gold plated fingers are gold over >nickel over copper and have excellent resistance to wear, corrosion and >metal migration. Many however cheap out and do gold over copper, very >bad. This gold over copper tends to have problems with the copper ions >migrating to the gold surface and turning a bluish-green. Being "chromatically challenged" (can't tell either blue or green from grey or pink) to such extent that the corrosion or dirt was just a dark smudge, I never considered that it might result form low quality boards. Thanks for explaining this. >Attacking that >with abrasives or solvents are temprorary solutions at best ans the >copper ions will continue to migrate. This is why the layer of nickel is >needed to keep the gold clean. This also depends on the connector being >gold/nickle/copper as well or the metal migration happens from the >otherside (connector). Adding to that boards with tin(solder) plated >connectors and you can effectively posion the connector system. My altair >and later replacement WAMCO backplanes suffered this fate from the mixed >plated connectors and boards. It showed up after about two years in the >slightly salty humid LongIsland air, symptoms were boards must be pulled >and plugged back in before the system would run if powered off for more >than a few days. I would have to use goldwipes and M50 solvent every >few weeks to make it only somewhat stable. Even a film of silicone oil >only helped somewhat. > >Oh, add oil vapor (machine shops), tobacco smoke or other pollutants and >the reliability and surface accumulations can be far worse. > > >Allison > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 13 12:38:09 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: <001701bf8cbc$21e8d2f0$8700a8c0@xpuppy> References: Message-ID: >Is this device still available? The page refers to $$99 from circuit city. >(If so I will be taking one home after my US visit next week!!) > >Kevin According to Slashdot reports they're currently out of stock just about everywhere. The page on adding a disk mentions it's got a 180MHz processor, yet I believe the companies page mentions 200MHz. >It's not clear if you can decline to order the monthly ISP-like >Internet dial-up service, at least $21.95/month for the first month, >if you buy via their web site. If you can get one for $100 >from Circuit City without sign-up for the service, away you >go. But it may be that the $100 price is only possible if you >pick up a minimum service contract. > >- John It looks like if you buy direct you're sucked into a service agreement, of at least a month. However, according to what was said on Slashdot if you get it from Circuit City you don't have to deal with that, and can get it for $99. However, people were mentioning having to put down a $20 downpayment because it wasn't in stock, and I gather the $99 is a time limited deal and it will go up to either $199 or $299. >The chip in that thing is a Pentium180? > >Tell me more about this, is the LCD part of it?? > >Allison Well, it's not a Pentium 180, it's a WinChip 180 (I've no idea how that compares). The LCD is a 800x600 passive colour display apparently. It also has 32MB RAM, that looks like the same RAM used in the iMac. The company making them is Netpliance http://www.netpliance.com/ and I think I saw an add for them on the Discovery Channel last night, a couple hours before I saw the site on hacking a disk into them http://www.linux-hacker.net/iopener/ Of course the ulitmate would be to use one as both a PDP-11 emulator and the System console for my PDP-11/44 :^) I hate both clone chips and Circuit City, but I'm *really* tempted to run over to Circuit City before work today! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Mar 13 12:43:55 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: <20000313175036.11208.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I just took a look at the netpliance website for some details... If you buy an i-opener online, you have a choice of monthly or fixed-term service. If you go through the purchase procedure for monthly service, it's $99 plus $39.95 shipping, with no mention of a minimum required service length. I'd assume that it's the same at CC; you probably buy the box there for $99 + tax without the internet service. Aaron (BTW - the web site that Zane posted has the info on how to wire the IDE cable and gives a good view of the interior layout. In addition to what's been posted, it contains a "real" 56K modem - not winmodem - sound, 16-bit graphics, usb, and ps/2 kbd/mouse.) On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > The chip in that thing is a Pentium180? > > A "WinChip 180" - kinda like a P-180 with extra stuff onboard to implement > video on the CPU and use main memory as video memory (kinda like what the > Amiga does, but not exactly). It's its own thing designed to reduce part > count and manufacturing cost. > > > Tell me more about this, is the LCD part of it?? > > Yes. The idea is that you buy their box for cheap and give them $250+ > per year in ISP fees, subsidizing the hardware. I'm going to go look > at one at CC at lunch and see if you buy the unit over the counter and > _then_ sign up when you bring the box home. I expect that they charge > $199 at CC and you get $100 off your usage time. Even so, $200 for an > integrated box that is reconfigurable isn't bad. I bought a proprietary > flat-panel 486 with PCMCIA and one ISA slot for about that (16Mb RAM, 500Mb > disk, no floppy but an external floppy connector). This is _much_ more > powereful except for the lack of expandability and the lack of a built-in > network jack. All I need right now is a source of used DE-620 pocket > Ethernet adapters to charge on ahead. > > -ethan > > > ===== > Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to > vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com > > The original webpage address is still going away. The > permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ > > See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 13 12:55:41 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Red Erasors Message-ID: <000a01bf8d1d$bb7f18a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, leave it to Tony to suggest a practical way to handle an awkward job . . . This one's GOT to work! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, March 13, 2000 11:32 AM Subject: Re: Red Erasors > > >On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> My question would have to be, "How do you clean the backplane connectors? > >I think it was Tony who brought up a punch card soaked in alcohol to >clean the backplane connectors. Mildly abrasive, doesn't leave anything >behind. > From elvey at hal.com Mon Mar 13 12:59:49 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Red Erasors In-Reply-To: <002001bf8d1a$f182a3c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200003131859.KAA05961@civic.hal.com> Hi I thought I should mention that gold does corrode. Not as much as copper or iron but the deposits of gold ore wouldn't be there if it didn't form gold salts. Most mining operations, of gold, depend on the fact that gold forms salts. They usually make a salt of arsenic but it is still a salt. Gold doesn't oxidize much but it is effected by chemicals. Dwight From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Mar 13 13:05:59 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: ?OT: HP DMM In-Reply-To: <002001bf8d1a$f182a3c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <000101bf8d1f$2bc1b180$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Hello everyone, This may be somewhat off topic, but here goes. I few years ago I won an HP 971a (I think) DMM as a a seminar door prize. It got about a year of good use then I: a) Left it behind something heavy in my garage or b) had it stolen while in my desk drawer at work. I'm just about giving up on finding it. I've since resorted to buying some el cheapo meters but they're just not quite the same. I'd like to replace it. Thing is, HP seems to not like to sell direct. Can somebody give a good www. or 1-800- reference for a decent HP sales house? John A. From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Mon Mar 13 13:13:51 2000 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (FBA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question Message-ID: <002d01bf8d20$45674950$3c37d986@fauradon.beckman.com> What about the USB port? It seems like they are not using it in the iopener configuration but is it available to other OS's? If it is then eveything and more can be hooked up: scanner, CD Writer, floppy, mices, printers, joysticks etc... lokk pretty good for the bucks. I'm making a stop on the way home tonight. Now what is a good source of 2.5" HD's. How about the SanDisk is that a port or is it soldered on board? From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Mar 13 13:45:49 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question Message-ID: <20000313194549.29260.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> --- Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > I just took a look at the netpliance website for some details... > > If you buy an i-opener online, you have a choice of monthly or fixed-term > service. If you go through the purchase procedure for monthly service, > it's $99 plus $39.95 shipping, with no mention of a minimum required > service length. I'd assume that it's the same at CC; you probably buy the > box there for $99 + tax without the internet service. OK... here's the scoop... my local CC is backordered over a dozen units. I put down a $20 deposit on one and it is supposed to arrive in two weeks. The way the billing works is you pay $99 + tax for the unit and as soon as you connect it to a phone line and give it the go-ahead, the unit connects with the central office somewhere and you enter in credit card info and pick yout billing plan. If you never connect it to a phone line with the default QNX software, you never have to worry about signing up. I expect this policy to change when they see hundreds if not thousands of units sold with no service started on them. Until then, I've (almost) got mine. Now all I need is a DE-620. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 13 13:08:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Red Erasors In-Reply-To: <002701bf8d10$bce85880$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 13, 0 10:22:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 337 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000313/54e4b78b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 13 13:14:04 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Why etc. In-Reply-To: <200003131805.KAA05246@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Mar 13, 0 10:05:03 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2147 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000313/f4fac054/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 13 12:39:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: Red Erasors In-Reply-To: <200003130505.AAA13485@lexington.ioa.net> from "Technoid@cheta.net" at Mar 13, 0 00:03:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1022 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000313/5fd5daaa/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 13 12:36:38 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: TMS-7000 info needed In-Reply-To: <20000313000007.3704120F06@mail.iae.nl> from "kees.stravers@iae.nl" at Mar 13, 0 01:00:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1765 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000313/32c25d7f/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Mar 13 14:09:37 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:09 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question Message-ID: <20000313200937.4757.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> --- FBA wrote: > What about the USB port? It seems like they are not using it in the iopener > configuration but is it available to other OS's? Possibly, but Linux USB support isn't all it could be. It's probably OK under '98. > Now what is a good source of 2.5" HD's. I've been getting mine used from people that have been upgrading laptops to bigger disks. I have several in the <2Gb range (no... don't ask for one... three of them have Linux/Solaris/WinBlows for my regular laptop). > How about the SanDisk is that a port or is it soldered on board? The picture shows two 64Mb Flash chips soldered down - 128Mb/16MB total. There's a page from the guy who hacked his that shows the output of Linux "dmesg" shows the disks thusly... ide0: BM-DMA at 0xe000-0xe007, BIOS settings: hda:DMA, hdb:DMA hda: TOSHIBA MK2103MAV, ATA DISK drive hdb: SunDisk SDTB-128, ATA DISK drive ide0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6 on irq 14 hda: TOSHIBA MK2103MAV, 2067MB w/128kB Cache, CHS=525/128/63 hdb: SunDisk SDTB-128, 15MB w/1kB Cache, CHS=490/2/32 -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From elvey at hal.com Mon Mar 13 14:15:06 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Why etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200003132015.MAA06947@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: --snip-- > > > Oh, I don't doubt it's _possible_ to get a machine like that working, but > it's also a lot of work (which can, of course, be fun). I also doubt that > everybody here can do it.... True but learning how to do this sort of think is what I consider the fun part about these machines. Having a box that works without understand what is going on inside would drive me batty. I'm really frustrated when I can't find a schematic for some of the things I have. I have been known to trace schematic myself but this is really time consuming and I'd prefer to get copies of originals. I don't have a piece of electronic gear that I haven't at least taken the cover off of and looked inside. > > > There are people who can take a totally undocumented computer (no > manuals, no boot disks), and produce a memory map, I/O map, schematics, > ROM routines list, etc. And then write/modify an OS for it. Such people > are generally called 'hackers[1]' or more ;-) > > [1] In the true, original, sense, of course... > > Others prefer not to have to do all the work themselves.... > > Me? Well, I don't mind sorting out hardware, no matter how complex, but I > don't want to have to write an OS. I might manage a machine code monitor > on a good day :-) > > So IMHO it's worth _considering_ what software/manuals are available for > a classic computer. It may well not make any difference to you, but it's > one thing to think about. I tried to locate original software and also posted to this group but the darn thing was a rare one. Finally a local friend found some schematics and a little information. I still had to do a lot of experimentation because the controller needed the right information in the RAM that it was reading or writing to. I guess I am just a hacker at heart. I think that all collectors should take on such a project at some point on some machine. The knowledge gained is valuable for all kinds of things. I will have some hardware to play with on my death bed. Dwight From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 13 15:08:19 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: <20000313194549.29260.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >OK... here's the scoop... my local CC is backordered over a dozen units. I >put down a $20 deposit on one and it is supposed to arrive in two weeks. The >way the billing works is you pay $99 + tax for the unit and as soon as you >connect it to a phone line and give it the go-ahead, the unit connects with >the central office somewhere and you enter in credit card info and pick yout >billing plan. If you never connect it to a phone line with the default QNX >software, you never have to worry about signing up. > >I expect this policy to change when they see hundreds if not thousands of >units sold with no service started on them. Until then, I've (almost) got >mine. Now all I need is a DE-620. > >-ethan I just got done running to CC myself, they had 8 units backordered. I put down the $20 deposit on one, however, the sales people wouldn't even hazard a guess as to when they'll be getting them. Oh, and mine will be exactly $99, no sales tax in Oregon :^) Now the question is, does anyone know how to wipe QNX off of them, and put what you want on them? I've no idea what a SanDisk is. I'm assuming it's something that's got to be done with a Windows PC. I basically just want DOS, a PDP-11 emulator and an RL02 image with RT-11 on it. However, I'm wondering if there is a way to also use it as a Serial terminal. If so I'd have to squeeze TELIX on there as well. Do USB drivers for DOS exist? Actually in the long run I'm probably best off putting a HD in it so I can have several emulator images on the thing for different OS's. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 13 14:52:19 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Why etc. In-Reply-To: <200003132015.MAA06947@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Mar 13, 0 12:15:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4010 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000313/7f74e865/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Mar 13 15:45:15 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question Message-ID: <20000313214515.18763.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Now the question is, does anyone know how to wipe QNX off of them, and put > what you want on them? I've no idea what a SanDisk is. I'm assuming it's > something that's got to be done with a Windows PC. Nope... it's hardware - an ATA-interface wad of Flash ROM. The BIOS on this particular box seems to see it as the slave device on the IDE interface if there is a real IDE drive installed on the 44-pin connector. The problem with this box is that there is no way to import software since the SanDisk is soldered on, not plugged in, like some embedded designs. What appears to be necessary is to install an alternate OS on a laptop drive that is installed in a _real_ machine, then stick the drive on this closed box. > However, I'm wondering if there is a way to also use it as a Serial > terminal. There does not appear to be an RS-232 port, but I have two options - one quick-n-dirty, the other only theoretically possible. First, I have a box that simulates a CO. I can stick a modem on the other side of this thing and use its internal modem at 33.6 (maximum speed without a digitally- enhanced ISP on the other end) or down to 9600, say, and simulate a dial-up connection with whatever software is handy - I'm fond of Kermit myself. Alternately, it may be possible to remove the modem and add a MAX-232-based level converter and run a cable outside the case for "real" serial devices. I plan to inspect the innards and hang a scope off of whatever interconnects there are. Worst case, the UART is embedded in the modem and I'll have to be more creative by probably installing a 16550 on a daughter card in place of the modem. I don't know if I'll go to that extreme. > Do USB drivers for DOS exist? I sincerely doubt it. > Actually in the long run I'm probably best off putting a HD in it so I can > have several emulator images on the thing for different OS's. Agreed, but I may stick a Linux Router Project kernel on the internal SanDisk and mount stuff via NFS - slow over the parallel port, but it should work once I get an adapter. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From elvey at hal.com Mon Mar 13 15:56:37 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Why etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200003132156.NAA08249@civic.hal.com> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > I certainly don't want people being put off from becoming computer > collectors because they're worried you have to be able to read a > schematic in 5 seconds flat, and then write an OS before breakfast :-) > > -tony Yes, all agreed. It is just that most put the concept of doing things like writing a disassembler or even a simple OS for some old machine is out of the question and for the elite, only. After you do your first one, you realize that it isn't as much as people like Bill Gate would like you to believe. You attack it a piece at a time. Fiddle with some part and then another. Eventually you have the entire thing done. This is usually faster than you thought. Remember, you are not being forced to do it for a job, it is just for the satisfaction. There are lots of examples to look at. Steal a piece here or an idea there. It will all make sense eventually. Take Care Dwight From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 13 16:00:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: References: <20000313194549.29260.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >>I expect this policy to change when they see hundreds if not thousands of >>units sold with no service started on them. Until then, I've (almost) got >>mine. Now all I need is a DE-620. >> >>-ethan Looking into this some, and I expect to see the purchase policy and if they can afford to the hardware design change. There are people ordering 10 or more of these suckers to convert them! Here is some more web sites with info: http://snoopy.net/mailman/listinfo/iopener <- mail list and archives http://iopener.scizzors.net/ <- info, more pics, ideas for more uses http://www.higuchi-clark.com/iopener/ <- links to more sites BTW, I forgot to add on my last post that CC currently has *none* in their warehouses. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 13 16:23:49 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: References: <20000313194549.29260.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000313162110.020b7b70@pc> At 02:00 PM 3/13/00 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: >Looking into this some, and I expect to see the purchase policy and if they >can afford to the hardware design change. There are people ordering 10 or >more of these suckers to convert them! Yes, it's clear their business model expected revenues from the long-term monthly charge, and once their hardware has been "slashdotted" they'll change their policies. For that matter, until you have the unit in your hot little hands, they could still change their policy and simply refund your deposit. Meanwhile, this discussion is no more relevant than if you were discussing squeezing a PDP emulator into the RAM or HD of a $50 486 laptop: the PDP part is on-topic, the laptop isn't. :-) - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 13 16:41:15 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: <20000313214515.18763.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >There does not appear to be an RS-232 port, but I have two options - one A possible third option, it sounds like there might be a second Com Port on the MB. If this is the case, it might be possible to solder a connector to it. >Agreed, but I may stick a Linux Router Project kernel on the internal SanDisk >and mount stuff via NFS - slow over the parallel port, but it should work >once I get an adapter. > >-ethan One of the links I posted earlier mentions that there are two related Linux distro's in the works. One will fit on a 500MB HD, the other will fit on the SanDisk. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dburrows at netpath.net Mon Mar 13 16:34:56 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Compact QBus Systems (Was re: Los Angeles: Commodore PET 8032's...) Message-ID: <036d01bf8d3c$83004390$a652e780@L166> > >More like 5" when you add casing. I have a 780+backplane. > >The Rackmount BA11-M is 3.5h x 19w x 18.5d (the depth is possibly >inaccurate) The destop version is a little larger for prettyness. > >The BA11-VA 3.5h x 13w x 13.5d > >the H780 ps alone 5.5"W3.3hx14.625L > >The BA11M however will take a lot more cards though but is very noisy. I was going my memory of the ones I have had. The last one was 6 to 9 months ago. I will have to keep my eyes open for more. They a handy size. Dan From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Mar 13 16:56:49 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Article web site Message-ID: <012101bf8d3f$6b4c93e0$92711fd1@default> the article on collecting is at www.pioneerpress.com/tech -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000313/0f0a6734/attachment.html From Technoid at cheta.net Mon Mar 13 17:02:42 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Computer Parts Barn In-Reply-To: <38CD039F.7A224758@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <200003132301.SAA15573@lexington.ioa.net> Unfortunately Ed doesn't really DO e-mail. He has web access but just doesn't use mail. Don't know why. There is no web page at the moment but I am encouraging him towards one. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From Technoid at cheta.net Mon Mar 13 17:11:03 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: IP Address for Data General Acess In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200003132314.SAA20608@lexington.ioa.net> My IP address has changed yet again and will continue to do so. Access will be hit or miss depending on whether my server is online etc. The present address is 205.138.39.202 Password is xcart then telnet to 192.168.0.25 which is the Data General Machine your login is OP password is CHRISSY Have fun and BE NICE I have full backups but that is no excuse to trash the machine. Also, if you feel like it, see if you can get SENDMAIL working out to the internet.... Just wishing. I will eventually solve it. It is a name resolution issue. There are two FAQs on AOS/VS in the root of the drive. Type DIR : to get to the root then use the type command to display the files. Please send a message to the main console when you log on to the machine or an e-mail to me. You can SENDMAIL OP or you can use "SEND @con0 message text here" without the quotes to 'instant message' the main console. Thanks and let me know what you think and how I can improve things. You must issue a SUPERUSER ON command or some things may not be visible to you. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 13 16:26:30 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: HP 2000 TSB question In-Reply-To: <003301bf8c3a$39bc5960$0101a8c0@jay> (west@tseinc.com) References: <003301bf8c3a$39bc5960$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <20000313222630.5887.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Jay West" wrote: > These two systems ran HP2000 Access TSB, and had 32K each. My question is > (before I spend time hunting down replacement boards) does anyone know what > the memory requirements for the main and IOP cpu's in 2000Access is? If I > can get by with less than 32K in each cpu I can forgo getting replacement > boards for the time being and perhaps run with 24/16. Based on study of the source code, I'm fairly sure that 2000 C' requires 32K for each procesor; on the IOP it's mostly used for buffering. It's hard to believe that 2000Access would need less. With source, it should be possible to generate IOP code that supports fewer ports and needs less memory. Without source, forget it. From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Mon Mar 13 17:48:30 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Icom Attache: What is it? Message-ID: <20000313234830.3367.qmail@hotmail.com> >Can you give us a description, David? > > - don If I had a description, I wouldn't have posted my info request here, would I? That's why I posted the aforementioned message here: to figure out what the heck this computer is. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From Technoid at cheta.net Mon Mar 13 17:55:07 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Dynamic Ip address In-Reply-To: <200003132314.SAA20608@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <200003132355.SAA03071@lexington.ioa.net> Before I attempt a REX script on my Warp 3 proxy server I thought I would ask the group. I would like my proxy server to post it's IP address to the group via mail or to my homepage so that folks can allways get in if the machine is up. The platform is OS/2 Warp, RedHat Linux sometimes, and AOS/VS II on the Eclipse mini. I won't put a Windows machine on the net just to do this and am not sure it would work anyway since the spoofing router is running on a Warp machine. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon Mar 13 18:25:07 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Dynamic Ip address In-Reply-To: <200003132355.SAA03071@lexington.ioa.net>; from Technoid@cheta.net on Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 06:55:07PM -0500 References: <200003132314.SAA20608@lexington.ioa.net> <200003132355.SAA03071@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <20000313172507.B8929@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 06:55:07PM -0500, Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > Before I attempt a REX script on my Warp 3 proxy server I thought I would > ask the group. > > I would like my proxy server to post it's IP address to the group via mail > or to my homepage so that folks can allways get in if the machine is up. Shouldn't be too hard. Alternatively you could try to get a domain registered with one of the services that can handle dynamic IP's, like dhs.org maybe. I'm not sure how they do it but yourname.dhs.org ends up always pointing to the right IP address. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From donm at cts.com Mon Mar 13 18:36:26 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Why etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >> 2) You can never have enough paper towels, windex, ScotchBrite, screws, > >> shunts, ajax, Iso Alcohol, sponges, paper for notes, space, light, > >> outlets, patience, powerbars, wire, pens, media, test equipment, smarts. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Related to that : Never forget that the best piece of test gear that you own > >is your brain. A good brain (== knowing what you're doing) beats any > > Unfortunately most of the time I don't have a brain available to use, so a > big box of spares comes in handy. I was working on a bunch of dirty old > systems this weekend and gave wearing a pair of latex gloves a try. Seems > like I got poked less, and no question hands were clean at the end. Real > test is later this week when I do a batch of cleaning with solvents. I notice that even auto mechanics are wearing them now. - don From west at tseinc.com Mon Mar 13 18:29:03 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: HP 2000 TSB question - additional info References: <003301bf8c3a$39bc5960$0101a8c0@jay> <20000313222630.5887.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <002901bf8d4c$4e415a80$0101a8c0@jay> Eric wrote... > Based on study of the source code, I'm fairly sure that 2000 C' requires 32K > for each procesor; on the IOP it's mostly used for buffering. It's hard to > believe that 2000Access would need less. > > With source, it should be possible to generate IOP code that supports fewer > ports and needs less memory. Without source, forget it. I was just digging through the dusty recesses of my basement documentation corner, and came across a handwritten note from some kind soul way in the past (actually scribbled on the back corner of another document) alluding that the main processor does in fact need 32K. However, the same note appears to say that the IOP can have anywhere from 16 to 32K. Of course, a hand written note isn't the same as an HP configuration manual :). So it sounds like IOP memory requirements at least are still somewhat up in the air. On a related note, the IOP needs special firmware for the 2000 Access configuration. The only way you can put those roms into the IOP is on the A2 card, which would mean you have to take the floating point option out. So does anyone have a reading on which processors need FPP and FP options for 2000 Access, or if either of those options are needed at all? Thanks in advance! Jay West From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 13 20:38:58 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question Message-ID: <200003140238.VAA22009@world.std.com> Well first off I've ordered one as it's interesting. Do USB drivers for DOS exist? < <"slashdotted" they'll change their policies. For that matter, <>The BA11M however will take a lot more cards though but is very noisy. < from "Technoid@cheta.net" at "Mar 13, 2000 06:55:07 pm" Message-ID: <200003140308.WAA03255@bg-tc-ppp214.monmouth.com> > Before I attempt a REX script on my Warp 3 proxy server I thought I would > ask the group. > > I would like my proxy server to post it's IP address to the group via mail > or to my homepage so that folks can allways get in if the machine is up. > > The platform is OS/2 Warp, RedHat Linux sometimes, and AOS/VS II on the > Eclipse mini. I won't put a Windows machine on the net just to do this > and am not sure it would work anyway since the spoofing router is running > on a Warp machine. take a look at www.dyndns.org. Works for me and it's doable with just about any scripting language... Rexx or perl under OS/2 should work if there's no client for Warp. Bill From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Mar 13 21:18:16 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: <200003140239.VAA22244@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 13, 2000 09:39:22 PM Message-ID: <200003140318.UAA05930@calico.litterbox.com> Even QNX seems pretty cool - I've tried the demo. If I can get my hands on one of these nifty things and just drop the generic QNX dialup stuff from the demo disk in place of their hardwired one, I'm hoping I can run QNX with the ISP of my choice. If not, I'll probably put BeOS on it. > > > Gee, I hate to tell you this but, I just installed RH5.2 on a 500mb drive > no problem. So I put Openlinux2.3 on it to see the difference. It's very > doable. I've got an old copy of FreeBSD 2.2.6 that would runs just fine > on a st3660(500mb). Also I've been running NT4.0/sp4 worktstation on > 486dx2/66 in 500mb (310mb free). NT for that box may be problematic due > to drivers for video and all. > > Another OS that is a good candidate is MINIX2.02 as the whole can fits on > 40mb with sources. I've run it on 10mb disk and 4mb ram. There is MinixVM > also. > > I think there are plenty of possible OSs for that toy. Most all of them > run some emulator we'd like to use. > > > Allison > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From Technoid at cheta.net Mon Mar 13 21:50:59 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: New Ip Address 205.138.39.173 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200003140349.WAA14333@lexington.ioa.net> mutant01's server's ip address is now 205.138.39.173 -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Mar 13 15:49:07 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question References: <20000313175036.11208.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012301bf8d68$fdb86aa0$19e893c3@proteus> Hi, > A "WinChip 180" - kinda like a P-180 with extra stuff >onboard to implement video on the CPU.... Oh, my, god....it was only a matter of time.... Can anyone say "Sinclair ZX-80"...? :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Mar 13 21:53:03 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Dayton Computerfest finds References: <20000313040401.3029.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012901bf8d69$04117a40$19e893c3@proteus> Hi, > I've also found out that this *exact* cable (down to the icon) >is used to connect a Newton to a Mac.... Which begs the question....now that I know how to wire up the cable, does anyone know where I can find the software to make my Newton MP100 talk to either my Mac or my PC? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Mar 13 21:49:11 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Need RS6K help References: <200003022047.PAA28250@bg-tc-ppp805.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <012801bf8d69$03513780$19e893c3@proteus> Hi Bill, > Are you sure there's no video cable.... Yep, there's no video card in there at all - annoying since the 24-bit 3D Graphics Processor option sounds very interesting.... >....The 7013's (5x0 models -- 520/530/550/580/590) often >had a video card for IBM fixed frequency monitors.... The manuals refer to the "7013 POWERstation" and the "7013 POWERserver". I'm assuming (for lack of evidence to the contrary) that my machine is a "POWERserver" and thus has no video adapter, and the "POWERstation" comes with a graphics card (and probably less RAM/hard disc). > The serial ports weren't 10 pin on anythin IBM had that I >saw. They used 9 and 25 pin ports. These are definitely 10-pin connectors, little square things. IBM actually supply a pair of adapter leads with the machine which convert them to conventional 25-pin "D" type connectors. I've actually managed to get a part number for these connectors, I think they're made by "Amphenol". Just a case of tracking down a distributor (and probably the pinout). TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 13 21:59:47 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question Message-ID: <200003140359.WAA17086@world.std.com> I've gotten several requests for the Hayes Stack Chronograph Owner's Manual. I finally got around to scanning it and putting it up on my web site. It's available at: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/archive_of_esoteric_documents.htm Hope this helps some of you who have been trying to figure out how to run the things! :-) -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) Web Page: http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Mar 13 22:31:11 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Article web site In-Reply-To: <012101bf8d3f$6b4c93e0$92711fd1@default> Message-ID: Congratulations, John! This is a really nice article, much different than some of the recent sensationalist pieces about us being a bunch of wacko retro-zealots. Aaron On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > the article on collecting is at www.pioneerpress.com/tech > From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon Mar 13 22:38:14 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: <200003140359.WAA17086@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Mar 13, 2000 10:59:47 PM Message-ID: <200003140438.VAA06199@calico.litterbox.com> QNX is the OS that coems on the iOpener. Its a small modular graphical OS that you can boot from a 1.44 meg floppy. BeOS is a somewhat larger OS - it's very unix like with an integrated GUI and a modern C++ API. QNX is designed mostly for the embedded market. BeOS is more a desktop OS, although there is a light version of it that is designed to compete in the Internet Applience market. for QNX info, hit www.qnx.com for BeOS info, hit www.be.com > > > I havent looked into QNX or BeOS so I can't comment. What are they and > what do they cost? > > Allison > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Mar 13 22:44:03 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: <200003140359.WAA17086@world.std.com> Message-ID: BeOS 4.5 is a commercial product, $69.95 I believe. BeOS 5.0 will be freely downloadable, supposedly by the end of the month. You can get some more info at www.be.com. QNX is a commercial product (products) which is a microkernel posix-compliant system. It's really designed for embedded devices; the only pricing I've seen shows that the development kits run in the $4K range for Photon and around $2K for QNX4. They offer a freely-downloadable system on their website that fits on a floppy; a full windowed interface, tcp, web-browser - and downloadable module additions on their website. Pretty cool... Aaron On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Allison J Parent wrote: > > I havent looked into QNX or BeOS so I can't comment. What are they and > what do they cost? > > Allison > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Mar 13 22:52:36 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: <012301bf8d68$fdb86aa0$19e893c3@proteus>; from peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk on Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 09:49:07PM -0000 References: <20000313175036.11208.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> <012301bf8d68$fdb86aa0$19e893c3@proteus> Message-ID: <20000313235236.A7879@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 09:49:07PM -0000, Peter Pachla wrote: > > A "WinChip 180" - kinda like a P-180 with extra stuff > >onboard to implement video on the CPU.... > > Oh, my, god....it was only a matter of time.... > > Can anyone say "Sinclair ZX-80"...? :-( Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but when I read that I assumed it was just the usual WinChip CPU -- i.e. the IDT/Centaur/C6 thing, a Pentium clone which was briefly interesting because it runs on a single voltage so it can be used to upgrade pre-MMX motherboards. Unfortunately I don't think they're cranking out new ones, but in any case I think it's a normal socket 7 CPU, not some horrible thing that does video on the fly on top of normal work. John Wilson D Bit From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Mar 13 22:44:50 2000 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: TMS-7000 info needed In-Reply-To: <20000313000007.3704120F06@mail.iae.nl> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000313204104.00aecd50@pacbell.net> At 01:00 AM 3/13/00 +0100, kees.stravers@iae.nl wrote: >I am looking for detailed information on the TMS-7000 microcontroller >from Texas Instruments. On the web information on this processor is >very scarce. >... >Does anyone have detailed info on the TMS-7000, like instruction set, >appnotes, etc? This would be a great help. I just went to http://www.ti.com and entered "TMS7000" in the search box and found some links. http://www.ti.com/sc/docs/micro/products/7000_pts.htm http://www.ti.com/sc/docs/micro/devspt/7000_tls.htm http://www.ti.com/sc/docs/micro/techdoc/7000_lit.htm There isn't a pile of .pdf's there or anything, but it appears that they would be willing to send you some old manuals. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Mar 13 23:31:40 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Article web site In-Reply-To: <012101bf8d3f$6b4c93e0$92711fd1@default> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000313213140.00951720@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 16:56 13-03-2000 -0600, you wrote: >>>> the article on collecting is at www.pioneerpress.com/tech <<<< I get an error that says the server is down. Is Pioneer Press having system or data line problems? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Mar 13 23:38:11 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Article web site In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000313213140.00951720@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: I just tried again and it worked...the direct URL to the article is http://www.pioneerpress.com/tech/docs/tech1.htm On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Bruce Lane wrote: > At 16:56 13-03-2000 -0600, you wrote: > > >>>> > the article on collecting is at > www.pioneerpress.com/tech > <<<< > > I get an error that says the server is down. Is Pioneer Press having > system or data line problems? > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 13 23:45:23 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: <20000313235236.A7879@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Mar 13, 2000 11:52:36 PM Message-ID: <200003140545.VAA24308@shell1.aracnet.com> > On Mon, Mar 13, 2000 at 09:49:07PM -0000, Peter Pachla wrote: > > > A "WinChip 180" - kinda like a P-180 with extra stuff > > >onboard to implement video on the CPU.... > > > > Oh, my, god....it was only a matter of time.... > > > > Can anyone say "Sinclair ZX-80"...? :-( > > Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but when I read that I assumed it was just > the usual WinChip CPU -- i.e. the IDT/Centaur/C6 thing, a Pentium clone > which was briefly interesting because it runs on a single voltage so it > can be used to upgrade pre-MMX motherboards. Unfortunately I don't think > they're cranking out new ones, but in any case I think it's a normal > socket 7 CPU, not some horrible thing that does video on the fly on top > of normal work. > > John Wilson > D Bit The pictures on the first link I posted show a video chip. So I don't think it's one of the integrated beasties. Wasn't that Cyrix? Zane From nerdware at laidbak.com Mon Mar 13 23:52:12 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Dayton Computerfest finds In-Reply-To: <012901bf8d69$04117a40$19e893c3@proteus> Message-ID: <200003140552.XAA21584@garcon.laidbak.com> From: "Peter Pachla" To: Subject: Re: Dayton Computerfest finds Date sent: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 03:53:03 -0000 Organization: WinterMute Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Hi, > > > I've also found out that this *exact* cable (down to the icon) > >is used to connect a Newton to a Mac.... > > Which begs the question....now that I know how to wire up the cable, does > anyone know where I can find the software to make my Newton MP100 talk to > either my Mac or my PC? > > > TTFN - Pete. > Your best bet is from ebay. That's where I got mine. You need the Newton Connection Kit for Mac (or PC). Two different products. Don't get Newton Connection Utilities -- that's for Newt OS 2.0 or later. Works very well (at least the Mac version does.) Lets you backup your Newt, and also lets you edit entries and make changes with a real, honest-to-goodness keyboard and mouse, and then dump it back down to the Newt. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Mar 14 00:44:10 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question Message-ID: <20000314064410.25341.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> --- Allison J Parent wrote: > This is one way, Ugly and prone to problems. Easier to hack the parallel > port and do a parallel to serial converter. I consider the parallel port > a resource. So do I. I want the parallel port for PLIP or for network or to possibly control an LCD module (if I can't control it from a serial port). > I happen to be lucky and have a few Xircom Pocket eithernet adaptors so > those will fill the parallel port. At the moment, I have no Xircom adapters (I'm casually looking for a bargain on a couple of PE-3s) and even if I had any, AFAIK, they only work under DOS and DOS derivatives, not any flavor of UNIX. There are pocket adapters that work, but I have never seen a working one for sale (there was this busted one at the hamfest...) As it turns out, one of the many pages on the iOpener that has sprung up claims that the modem interfaces to the motherboard with RS-232. I don't know if that means +/-12V or TTL, but it's a start. It appears to connect via a .1" spacing DIP header of 2x5 or perhaps 2x6 pins. Easy enough to squirt some data out the serial port and see what lights up with either an oscilloscope or even just a traffic light. > If linux supports USB there are all sorts of USB to whatever converters > including Eithernet, modems, printers... Depending on the USB chipset, yes. As I said earlier, USB support is imperfect under Linux at the moment. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Mar 14 00:49:49 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question Message-ID: <20000314064949.18771.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > Agreed, but I may stick a Linux Router Project kernel on the internal > > SanDisk and mount stuff via NFS > One of the links I posted earlier mentions that there are two related Linux > distro's in the works. One will fit on a 500MB HD, the other will fit on > the SanDisk. I'm not worried about stuff not fitting at all - I have been playing with entire functional distributions that act as dedicated web cams or routers and the like that fit on a single 1.44Mb floppy. For something requiring non-local space, it might be nice to mount over a network adapter, slow or not. I do have a spare 500Mb disk to throw to the effort. It's in that 486/DX4100 flatpanel box I've also got. As for fitting Linux on a small disk, I used to use a dedicated Linux router not based on a reduced kernel. It was on a 125Mb disk. No C compiler, no X, nothing but the kernel and basic networking. I had room left over. ISTR it was Slackware, vintage 2.0.30 kernel, whatever that works out to be. -ethan ObOnTopic - I'm interested in putting up Doug Jones' emulator and running an emulated PDP-8 on mine.I think it'd be cool to have the blinkenlights simulated under X and cut to an OS/8 window, all on something that is very portable. RadioShack sells a generic laptop adapter that some poster some- where claimed works with the iOpener, but it's $80! ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Mar 14 00:51:27 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question Message-ID: <20000314065127.18858.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- Peter Pachla wrote: > > A "WinChip 180" - kinda like a P-180 with extra stuff > >onboard to implement video on the CPU.... I retract my assertion that a WinChip does some kind of integrated video. Somewhere along the line of <$400 machines, I because misinformed/confused. There is some form of recognized video chip on the iOpener, but it _does_ use main memory as video RAM. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 14 01:18:30 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: <20000314064410.25341.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 13, 2000 10:44:10 PM Message-ID: <200003140718.XAA02503@shell1.aracnet.com> > --- Allison J Parent wrote: > > I happen to be lucky and have a few Xircom Pocket eithernet adaptors so > > those will fill the parallel port. > > At the moment, I have no Xircom adapters (I'm casually looking for a bargain > on a couple of PE-3s) and even if I had any, AFAIK, they only work under DOS > and DOS derivatives, not any flavor of UNIX. There are pocket adapters that > work, but I have never seen a working one for sale (there was this busted one > at the hamfest...) Actually it's looking like NetBSD might be a good option for this system. Someone has booted NetBSD on one without cracking the case, and is using a USB-to-Ethernet adapter. http://www.higuchi-clark.com/iopener/ So, how small can you make a NetBSD distro? Zane From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Mar 14 02:52:12 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: <20000314064410.25341.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001bf8d92$9786d1c0$47e3dfd0@cobweb.net> No need to hack anything to get another serial port. There are two serial ports on board, one for the modem, the other one is next to the dip switch. Here's a real good FAQ page http://fastolfe.net/misc/i-opener-faq.html , and there are lots of other very informative Hack/FAQ pages on the web for the I-Opener. Bill -> --- Allison J Parent wrote: -> > -> > This is one way, Ugly and prone to problems. Easier to hack -> the parallel -> > port and do a parallel to serial converter. I consider the -> parallel port -> > a resource. -> -> So do I. I want the parallel port for PLIP or for network or to possibly -> control an LCD module (if I can't control it from a serial port). -> -> > I happen to be lucky and have a few Xircom Pocket eithernet -> adaptors so -> > those will fill the parallel port. -> -> At the moment, I have no Xircom adapters (I'm casually looking -> for a bargain -> on a couple of PE-3s) and even if I had any, AFAIK, they only -> work under DOS -> and DOS derivatives, not any flavor of UNIX. There are pocket -> adapters that -> work, but I have never seen a working one for sale (there was -> this busted one -> at the hamfest...) -> -> As it turns out, one of the many pages on the iOpener that has sprung up -> claims that the modem interfaces to the motherboard with RS-232. I don't -> know if that means +/-12V or TTL, but it's a start. It appears -> to connect -> via a .1" spacing DIP header of 2x5 or perhaps 2x6 pins. Easy enough to -> squirt some data out the serial port and see what lights up with -> either an -> oscilloscope or even just a traffic light. -> -> > If linux supports USB there are all sorts of USB to whatever -> converters -> > including Eithernet, modems, printers... -> -> Depending on the USB chipset, yes. As I said earlier, USB -> support is imperfect -> under Linux at the moment. -> -> -ethan -> -> -> ===== -> Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to -> vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com -> -> The original webpage address is still going away. The -> permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ -> -> See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. -> __________________________________________________ -> Do You Yahoo!? -> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. -> http://im.yahoo.com -> From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Mar 14 07:25:01 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Dayton Computerfest finds In-Reply-To: <012901bf8d69$04117a40$19e893c3@proteus> Message-ID: <200003141226.NAA07647@mail2.siemens.de> > > I've also found out that this *exact* cable (down to the icon) > >is used to connect a Newton to a Mac.... > Which begs the question....now that I know how to wire up the cable, does > anyone know where I can find the software to make my Newton MP100 talk to > either my Mac or my PC? Well, just take the NCK (Netwton Connection Kit), At the time of the OMP...MP130 this was an additional package. You need a version acording to your NOS version. Some of the stuff is available for download at Apples ftp sites. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From pat at transarc.ibm.com Tue Mar 14 09:38:49 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: i-Opener Message-ID: I just tried to order one from Circuit City Online. They bounced my order - their web site will not let you backorder "out of stock" items. Bleah. --Pat. From dastar at siconic.com Tue Mar 14 12:10:13 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Need NEC PC-8886 Message-ID: <200003141822.KAA02309@siconic.com> Does anyone have a working NEC PC-8886? I think this is the model number. It may very well be an NEC APC. At any rate, it would be a model with 8" drives. I have some 8" disks (I believe they are single-sided but the box they came in says "2D" on it; they are 256 byte sectors) containing some valuable geological data for the country of Guatemala that I am trying to recover for a geophysicist working on a project in conjunction with the UN. They contain graphical maps and textual data that would be very useful for Guatemala. If anyone can loan me a working NEC computer that can possibly read these diskettes I'll be sure you share in any praise heaped upon us by Guatemala, and I promise to share any villager women they bestow upon me for my efforts. In the very least shipping costs will be reimbursed. I have an NEC PC that would probably be able to run whatever is on these things (providing they are still viable) but it doesn't work. In the meantime I'm going to go retrieve it from my warehouse and see if I can fiddle with it and coax it to be reborn. Please reply directly to me as I am not subscribed to ClassicCmp. sellam@vintage.org Thanks for any help!!! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Mar 14 03:24:34 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:10 2005 Subject: Why etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Unfortunately most of the time I don't have a brain available to use, so a >> big box of spares comes in handy. I was working on a bunch of dirty old >> systems this weekend and gave wearing a pair of latex gloves a try. Seems >> like I got poked less, and no question hands were clean at the end. Real >> test is later this week when I do a batch of cleaning with solvents. > >I notice that even auto mechanics are wearing them now. At this point I am sold on using them. 5 bucks for a box of a 100 (50 pair) at a cheapo place nearby (Harbor Freight tools). My hands stay clean. I don't get poked, or cut very easily (zero so far). Solvents that are nasty to my skin, now are harmless. BTW I just realized, no brain and a box of spares, hey I'm in field service. ;) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Mar 14 02:38:39 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Dayton Computerfest finds In-Reply-To: <200003131334.OAA28954@mail2.siemens.de> References: <20000313040401.3029.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >> > > So... does anyone out there have a Mac "null-modem" cable they'd like to >> > > get rid of? > >> I've also found out that this *exact* cable (down to the icon) is used to >> connect a Newton to a Mac. Any Newt users out there (in the States, >>Hans ;-) >> that have a source for cables? > >You're right, thats exactly the cable you need (I use one of my >Newt cables to connect a Mac via SLIP to a unix box to jump via >LAN into a second linux box acting as ISDN router :). > >Since these cables are scary rare, I'd apreciate any reasonable >priced source - so, Ethan, if you go for an order, I'd like >to participate. How is this cable different from a Imagewriter II cable ? I have a couple cases of brand new I2 cables, plus maybe 500 total apple and mac cables. Can't say that I know what all of them are or do though. ;( From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Mar 14 14:06:59 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Dayton Computerfest finds Message-ID: <20000314200659.8588.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Ford wrote: > >> > > So... does anyone out there have a Mac "null-modem" cable... > > How is this cable different fromAAAIcAAACIAAAAiQAA > AIoAAACLAAAAjAAAAI0AAACOAAAAjwAAAJAAAACRAAAAkgAAAJMAAACUAAAA > lQAAAJYAAACXAAAAmAAAAJkAAACaAAAAmwAAAJwAAACdAAAAngAAAJ8AAACg > AAAAoQAAAKIAAACjAAAApAAAAKUAAACmAAAAp Say what?!? -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 14 13:45:50 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question In-Reply-To: <012301bf8d68$fdb86aa0$19e893c3@proteus> (peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk) References: <20000313175036.11208.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> <012301bf8d68$fdb86aa0$19e893c3@proteus> Message-ID: <20000314194550.11694.qmail@brouhaha.com> >> A "WinChip 180" - kinda like a P-180 with extra stuff >>onboard to implement video on the CPU.... > Oh, my, god....it was only a matter of time.... > Can anyone say "Sinclair ZX-80"...? :-( Not the same sort of thing at all. The video is done by "real" video hardware that happens to be integrated onto the same chip. The CPU is not involved in producing the video. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Mar 14 15:46:59 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Dayton Computerfest finds In-Reply-To: <20000314200659.8588.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >--- Mike Ford wrote: >> >> > > So... does anyone out there have a Mac "null-modem" cable... >> >> How is this cable different fromAAAIcAAACIAAAAiQAA >> AIoAAACLAAAAjAAAAI0AAACOAAAAjwAAAJAAAACRAAAAkgAAAJMAAACUAAAA >> lQAAAJYAAACXAAAAmAAAAJkAAACaAAAAmwAAAJwAAACdAAAAngAAAJ8AAACg >> AAAAoQAAAKIAAACjAAAApAAAAKUAAACmAAAAp > >Say what?!? I think something sneezed on your end, it came through in my email as How is this cable different from a Imagewriter II cable ? I have a couple cases of brand new I2 cables, plus maybe 500 total apple and mac cables. Can't say that I know what all of them are or do though. ;( From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Mar 14 16:08:46 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Power supply for TS2068? Message-ID: <200003142208.OAA13990@oa.ptloma.edu> Does anyone have a power supply pinout or info for the TS2068? I didn't get a good look at the unit (it appeared in good physical shape), but it has no power supply and I'm unwilling to buy it merely for collectable value (all my classic computers do WORK, darn it!). Well, okay, the KIM-1 doesn't. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Justice is incidental to law and order. -- J. Edgar Hoover ----------------- From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Mar 14 16:10:45 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Why etc. In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Tue, Mar 14, 2000 at 01:24:34AM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20000314171045.A10693@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Mar 14, 2000 at 01:24:34AM -0800, Mike Ford wrote: > At this point I am sold on using them. 5 bucks for a box of a 100 (50 pair) > at a cheapo place nearby (Harbor Freight tools). Must be nice to be close enough to visit Harbor Freight in person, they aren't so reliable by mail order, or at least they didn't used to be. It took *months* to get them to ship an order... I find the latex exam gloves are nice for desoldering too, not that they're actually *made* to insulate you from heat, but they do buy you several extra seconds of holding onto parts before you get burned. John Wilson D Bit From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 14 16:29:24 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Intel 8257 DMA controller specs Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000314162809.0217d100@pc> In response to a request from a guy in Poland, I recently scanned my circa 1979 Intel data sheet for the 8257 DMA controller. Did I duplicate effort in that this doc was already online? If not, where should I put the resulting 17 TIFF files? - John From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Mar 14 12:35:01 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Why etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200003142332.e2ENW8v12953@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 01:24:34 -0800 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > From: Mike Ford > Subject: Re: Why etc. > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Hi, > >I notice that even auto mechanics are wearing them now. > > At this point I am sold on using them. 5 bucks for a box of a 100 (50 pair) > at a cheapo place nearby (Harbor Freight tools). Vinyl gloves better, latex too flimsy but both doesn't block most nasty chemicals and latex fall apart. Vinyl tad better with mild chemicals, oils, grease, inks and alcohol stuff. I think the ones is teal/bluish color (nitile sp?) is what good for this. I see these used for epoxy, some nasty chemicals and biohazard jobs. This are ones I'm looking for to buy, where? Cheers, Wizard From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Mar 14 18:25:42 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: FW: Help: Setting up a MVAX3 GPS system... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm forwarding this to both CLASSICCMP and the port-VAX lists. Attached is a message found on Usenet from a fellow who could use (a), some help setting up a QDSS graphics subsystem on his MicroVAX 3, and (b), a "hockey-puck" mouse and a reference for the appropriate cable to use it, the monitor, and the keyboard. His current cable, a BCC-06 series, lacks the mouse connector. Please reply to him directly at dan@dna.rockefeller.edu. Thanks much! Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:35:46 GMT, in alt.sys.pdp11 you wrote: >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp11 >>From: dan@tsolab.org (Daniel Tso) >>Reply-To: dan@tsolab.org >>Subject: Help: Setting up a MVAX3 GPS system... >>Organization: tsolab >>X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 >>Lines: 22 >>Message-ID: >>Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:35:46 GMT >>NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.85.40.126 >>X-Trace: rockyd.rockefeller.edu 953066021 129.85.40.126 (Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:33:41 EST) >>NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:33:41 EST >>Path: news.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!sdd.hp.com!enews.sgi.com!news-feed.fnsi.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.nyu.edu!rockyd.rockefeller.edu!dnd >>Xref: news.jps.net comp.sys.dec:1652 alt.sys.pdp11:393 >> >> I have been running Ultrix on a MVAX 3 and want now to >>use the parts for the GPS (QDSS? QVSS?) graphics subsystem I have >>lying around. >> I have the boards required, I think: M7169 and two M7168, >>with a 20pin ribbon cable bus on the left and I presume it needs a >>50pin ribbin cable bus on the right. >> I have the panel mount which as a DB15 on it, and I have a >>BCC03-06 cable which has the DB15 on one end and a header box with >>RGB BNC's on the other, along with a RJ-11. >> >> What I can't figure out is how the mouse (as well as what >>kind of mouse) is supposed to be used with this setup. I presume >>the RJ-11 is for the standard DEC keyboard. So how does the >>mouse interface ? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >>Cheers, >>Dan Ts'o, 212-327-7671, FAX: 212-327-7671 >>The Rockefeller University, 1230 York Ave. Box 138 >>New York, NY 10021 >>dantso@cris.com, dan@dna.rockefeller.edu -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Mar 14 18:55:08 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Article web site References: <3.0.5.32.20000313213140.00951720@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <004601bf8e19$1d6a5e20$f2731fd1@default> I just tried it and had no problem getting in. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Lane To: Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 11:31 PM Subject: Re: Article web site > At 16:56 13-03-2000 -0600, you wrote: > > >>>> > the article on collecting is at > www.pioneerpress.com/tech > <<<< > > I get an error that says the server is down. Is Pioneer Press having > system or data line problems? > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Mar 14 19:18:58 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Fw: my old NEC Message-ID: <00d601bf8e1c$70e5cc80$f2731fd1@default> I have received several emails about machines from people since the article about came out in the paper Monday. If anyone has any interest please this person. Thanks John ----- Original Message ----- From: bill57 To: Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 6:56 PM Subject: my old NEC > This link is dated Oct. 1, 97, but I thought I might try you > anyway. I saw the article in the paper today and I am > guessing your the man in that article. I picked up just > yesterday an old NEC APCIII with monitor and printer. It is > a NEC Pinwriter P7. I was wondering if you have any interest > in it. If not, where can I get some info on it. Your help > will be greatly appreciated. > > Bill Jungbauer > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Mar 14 19:19:43 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Fw: Old Computer Message-ID: <00de01bf8e1c$8bf9dde0$f2731fd1@default> I have received several emails about machines from people since the article about came out in the paper Monday. If anyone has any interest please this person. Thanks John ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 11:47 AM Subject: Old Computer > Hi John, > > Just wondering if my "old computer" has any historical significance. It was > given to me a few years ago by a guy who apparently got it in the > mid-eighties. The name is "Leading Edge" (?) > > Thanks for any info, > > Kevin Clark > St. Paul, MN > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Mar 14 19:20:43 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Fw: Old computers Message-ID: <00e601bf8e1c$aff41260$f2731fd1@default> I have received several emails about machines from people since the article about came out in the paper Monday. If anyone has any interest please this person. Thanks John ----- Original Message ----- From: Lee Kaplan To: Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 1:57 PM Subject: Old computers > Dear Mr. Keys, > > I saw today's article in the Pioneer Press about your collection of "orphan" > computers. Thank God, someone is taking care of those lost souls! > > I am the proud(?) owner of an Osborne-1, that powerful (64K RAM), portable > (31 pounds), with advanced technology (300 baud modem and dual, 5.25 > floppies/no hard drive). I've been keeping it in my basement, and > periodically, I pull it out just to see if it's still working. (Kind of like > the old accordian player who tries to see if he still remembers "Lady of > Spain.") Would you be interested in buying it from me at a sum SIGNIFICANTLY > reduced from its original $1,895 price tag? Right now I'm thinking $75, but > I'll listen to an offer. I'll even throw in my supply of 5.25 floppy disks. > And I may (but I'm not sure) also have a 12 inch external monitor I bought > when I almost went blind trying to read the Osborne screen. > > Let me know if this interests you or if you know anyone who's just dying to > have an Osborne. I'm located in Arden Hills and I can meet you anywhere that > is convenient to show it to you. Thanks... and good luck with your > collection. > > Lee Kaplan > ________________ > Superior Associates > http://www.superiorassociates.com > Websites that communicate > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Mar 14 19:21:06 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Fw: Old Computers Message-ID: <00ec01bf8e1c$bdc50f20$f2731fd1@default> I have received several emails about machines from people since the article about came out in the paper Monday. If anyone has any interest please this person. Thanks John ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Tente To: Sent: Monday, March 13, 2000 11:20 AM Subject: Old Computers > Dear John, > > Hello from Shoreview. I read an article in the St. Paul Pioneer Press that > mentioned you as a collector of old computers. I've been at it (computing) > a while, so > I still have some oldies. In the attic is my old Model III/4. It's been a > while, I don't remember if it's got the Model III gray case or if it's the > Model 4 in the white case. I think I've still got the "monster" 5 Meg Hard > drive I last upgraded to, too. I gave my sister my old Model 4P some time > ago and I'm checking with her to see if she's still got it. > > Let me know if you or anyone else you know might be interested in acquiring > these units. > > Best regards, > > -Mark Tente > =TenTech= > mark@tentech.com > Phone: 651-481-0274 > FAX: 651-484-0003 > Cell: 612-720-3715 > > TenTech Internet Web Site: http://www.tentech.com > > > > From Technoid at cheta.net Tue Mar 14 19:30:00 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Run my minicomputer 205.138.39.180 In-Reply-To: <200003132355.SAA03071@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <200003150128.UAA06278@lexington.ioa.net> Unfortunately I have a dynamic Ip address. I will publish this address frequently over the next two weeks. Depending on the traffic I receive I will contiune, expand or wipe the program. You can telnet to my proxy machine which has a dynamic IP. Right now it is 205.138.39.180 Your Password is xcart you can then telnet to 192.168.0.25 which is my Data General MV4000DC minicomputer. hit enter to get a login prompt OP is your login name CHRISSY is your password you should issue a SUPERUSER ON command if your terminal looks funky issue an CHAR/XLT command you can view BIG help by issueing an TYPE :phrackaos.txt or Type :phrackaosvs1.txt both these files will make you expert at AOS thanks to god knows who. play with the computer. For short, : is the delimeter between files dir is equivalent to cd under msdos FILESTATUS is equivalent to DIR in msdos and can be truncated to F. Example: Filestatus returns a dir of all files in the default dir as does: F returns the same thing TELNET, FTP, and SMTP work to most requirments though SMTP is still scetchy. the format is the same as unix or any other command line unix utility. dir : will get you to the root dir of the runtime drive Thanks to Carl Friend for his testing the system last week. To all, he an his wife are great and knowlegeable people. The Ip Adress will change fairly often. I will publish those changes when the machines are online with the subject header MUTANT01 IP = xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx Have a great night. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From Technoid at cheta.net Tue Mar 14 19:35:00 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Mutant01 IP = 205.138.39.180 In-Reply-To: <200003140438.VAA06199@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <200003150133.UAA07713@lexington.ioa.net> -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 14 19:48:28 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Fw: Old Computer In-Reply-To: <00de01bf8e1c$8bf9dde0$f2731fd1@default> from "John R. Keys Jr." at Mar 14, 2000 07:19:43 PM Message-ID: <200003150148.RAA24408@shell1.aracnet.com> > > I have received several emails about machines from people since the article > about came out in the paper Monday. If anyone has any interest please this > person. Thanks John > Regreting that article yet :^) Might need to double your storage space soon! Zane From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Mar 14 20:16:10 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Another list of items Message-ID: <015801bf8e24$6ec60020$f2731fd1@default> JOM8644@aol.com Here's what he has good luck. Subject: Apple II GS Computer John, This is what I have: Apple II GS Computer Model # A2S6000 Applecolor RGB Monitor Model # A2M6014 Apple Desktop Bus Mouse Family # G5431 Apple Desktop Keyboard Model # A9M0330 Apple 5.25 Drive Writing Model # A9M0107 Apple 3.25 Drive Model # A9M0106 Apple 3.25 Drive Model # A9M0106 Manuals Getting Started With Your Apple II GS Apple II GS Owners Reference AppleWorks GS Users Guide AppleWorks GS Reference Apple ImageWriter II Owners Guide Apple 5.25 Drive Owners Guide Apple 3.5 Drive Owners Guide AppleWorks GS Quick Reference AppleWorks GS Getting Started AppleWorks GS 1.1 Update Apple II A Touch of AppleSoft BASIC Program Manuals Clip Art Gallery The Childrens Writing & Publixhing Center Users guide APYX Art & Film Director Instruction Manual BankStreet Writer Plus Word Processor for the Apple 128K IIe/IIc/IIgs Paintworks Plus Games WINGS of Fury Jet Dream Zone Where in the USA is Carmen SanDeigo? Space Quest King's Quewt IV Prince of Persia Lode Runner Zorro Shadowgate EPYX Impossible Mission-II GBA championship Basketball Grand Prix Circut EPYX California Games EPYX Summer Games II TechnO COP Manhunters EPYX Sub Battle Tetris The Duel Test Drive II Battletech-IThe ChessMaster 2000 There are several 5.25 floppys, a 5.25 organizer which is full and many, many 3.25 floppys which looks like are mostly the games etc. You can reach me at Email jom8644@aol.com Fone 952-469-3235 Fax 952-469-3235 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000314/87c11fc1/attachment.html From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Tue Mar 14 20:20:35 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: HP computer stuff Message-ID: <38CEF373.49634CDD@roanoke.infi.net> A recent haul of HP computer stuff netted some HP3000 Series III racks, card cages and power supplies. Didn't I see someone on the list who is still supporting and/or using a 3000? There is also the cadaver of a HP3000 model 30 [actually looks complete but some one has pulled all the cards out]. If anyone is interested there are some pix posted at http://mh106.infi.net/~ip500/HPcomputers/ Not pictured but also available are a bunch of 2635B terminals, a couple of huge 2608 line printers, several of the 7920,20A or 25 disc drives and a wealth of tapes, manuals, etc... It's all [or mostly] for sale--I'm pretty reasonable--make that real reasonable--and price corelates inversely with weight! Pick up only in Roanoke, VA---only about 5 miles off of I-81. I'd be really interested in any trade proposals involving a HP2100---or earlier HP mini. Thanks, Craig From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 14 20:35:08 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Why etc. Message-ID: <200003150235.VAA15768@world.std.com> Just got in a couple of RF35s off of eBay for use in my MV3800 project. What has me intrigued is that they are labeled "RF35 / RZ35". I thought RZ was a SCSI designation. My DEC docs are dated, anybody can shed light on this ? Thanks ............ Nick From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Mar 14 21:14:33 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Glove love In-Reply-To: <200003142332.e2ENW8v12953@admin.cgocable.net> References: Message-ID: >> At this point I am sold on using them. 5 bucks for a box of a 100 (50 pair) >> at a cheapo place nearby (Harbor Freight tools). > >Vinyl gloves better, latex too flimsy but both doesn't block most >nasty chemicals and latex fall apart. Vinyl tad better with mild >chemicals, oils, grease, inks and alcohol stuff. > >I think the ones is teal/bluish color (nitile sp?) is what good for >this. I see these used for epoxy, some nasty chemicals and biohazard >jobs. This are ones I'm looking for to buy, where? Nitrile is the one for nasty nasty, but latex is MUCH easier to work in. My heavy nitrile gloves I bought at a janitors supply, but they have disposables right next to the boxes of latext gloves for about 50% more and half as many per box. Real latex is EXTREMELY elastic, mine lasted two days and I think only failed then because I was scrubbing with Goof Off (smells like lighter fluid, actually worse, takes off anything), and then it was just the end of one finger tearing. With latex you tend to get used to them and leave them on. With vinyl or worse nitrile you put them on, do the task, and take them off. From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Tue Mar 14 21:30:41 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Mutant01 IP = 205.138.39.180 In-Reply-To: <200003150133.UAA07713@lexington.ioa.net>; from Technoid@cheta.net on Tue, Mar 14, 2000 at 08:35:00PM -0500 References: <200003140438.VAA06199@calico.litterbox.com> <200003150133.UAA07713@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <20000314223041.A370@alcor.concordia.ca> On Tue, Mar 14, 2000 at 08:35:00PM -0500, Technoid@cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) wrote: > [nothing] While the effort is noble, I suspect the repeated "my IP address changed" messages will grow old quickly. Perhaps the changes could be posted somewhere such that interested parties can obtain the information over the web, or with finger? -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From mbg at world.std.com Tue Mar 14 21:48:37 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: DEC drives Message-ID: <200003150348.WAA05636@world.std.com> >Just got in a couple of RF35s off of eBay for use >in my MV3800 project. What has me intrigued is >that they are labeled "RF35 / RZ35". > >I thought RZ was a SCSI designation. My DEC docs >are dated, anybody can shed light on this ? I have a number of these as well.. I believe that the HDA can be used with either an RZ (SCSI) or RF(DSSI) board... Make sure that you know for sure which board it has on it... both types will say 'rz35/rf35'... Easy way to know... the power connector will be 4-pin for SCSI and 5-pin for DSSI (at least all the ones I have are like that). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Tue Mar 14 21:53:11 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Mutant01 IP = 205.138.39.180 References: <200003140438.VAA06199@calico.litterbox.com> <200003150133.UAA07713@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <200003150353.WAA08475@world.std.com> >While the effort is noble, I suspect the repeated "my IP address >changed" messages will grow old quickly. Perhaps the changes could be >posted somewhere such that interested parties can obtain the >information over the web, or with finger? I agree... the updates *have* grown old already... they are a waste of bandwidth... I tried one of them and got to an OS/2 system... I'm not sure if it counts yet as classic... it surely is not as interesting as an RT/RSTS/RSX/TOPS10/ITS system might be... The DG hardware may be more interesting... but I'm not famliar enough with them to know what to do with it... Either way, I agree that it would probably be more useful to put the info up on a web page somewhere, send us all one (1) pointer to it... and those who are interested will bookmark it to check what the address is... Just my $.02 Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Mar 14 22:08:11 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Free IBM 5140 ac adaptor Message-ID: <12.253731c.260066ab@aol.com> anyone need it? it has a dodgy power connector, but if you hold the wires just right, it works. just pay for shipping. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 ACVM antique computer virtual museum http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm --You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think-- From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Mar 14 22:10:23 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: DEC drives In-Reply-To: DEC drives (Nick Oliviero) References: <38CF00F2.1891538D@arrl.net> Message-ID: <14543.3375.808124.213239@phaduka.neurotica.com> On March 14, Nick Oliviero wrote: > Just got in a couple of RF35s off of eBay for use > in my MV3800 project. What has me intrigued is > that they are labeled "RF35 / RZ35". > > I thought RZ was a SCSI designation. My DEC docs > are dated, anybody can shed light on this ? RZ is a scsi designation. I believe the RF35 and the RZ35 share a common HDA; only the logic board is different. -Dave McGuire From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 14 22:23:44 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Compaq keyboard trivia. Message-ID: <20000315042344.50133.qmail@hotmail.com> As all most of us "Old-timers" know, when you read a prompt that reads "To continue, press any key", pressing any key on the keyboard will take you to whatever is next. I read recently that on a few Compaq keyboards there actually was a key labelled the "Any" key! Now *that's* what I call idiot-proofing! (iSore, eat your processor out!) ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dburrows at netpath.net Tue Mar 14 22:16:36 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: DEC drives Message-ID: <01d201bf8e38$92a590a0$a652e780@L166> They are the same HDA. Different board. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Nick Oliviero To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 10:50 PM Subject: DEC drives >Just got in a couple of RF35s off of eBay for use >in my MV3800 project. What has me intrigued is >that they are labeled "RF35 / RZ35". > >I thought RZ was a SCSI designation. My DEC docs >are dated, anybody can shed light on this ? > >Thanks ............ Nick From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue Mar 14 21:48:25 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Mutant01 IP = 205.138.39.180 Message-ID: <002001bf8e31$51c0e140$3f25d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 10:57 PM Subject: Re: Mutant01 IP = 205.138.39.180 > >>While the effort is noble, I suspect the repeated "my IP address >>changed" messages will grow old quickly. Perhaps the changes could be >>posted somewhere such that interested parties can obtain the >>information over the web, or with finger? > >I agree... the updates *have* grown old already... they are >a waste of bandwidth... I tried one of them and got to an >OS/2 system... I'm not sure if it counts yet as classic... it >surely is not as interesting as an RT/RSTS/RSX/TOPS10/ITS system >might be... > >The DG hardware may be more interesting... but I'm not famliar >enough with them to know what to do with it... > >Either way, I agree that it would probably be more useful to put >the info up on a web page somewhere, send us all one (1) pointer >to it... and those who are interested will bookmark it to check >what the address is... > >Just my $.02 I agree. I recommend putting up a link on a webpage like mine and then updating it with an IP poster. My IP numbers change *very* rarely but it is a good idea to still use a link on a webpage that is updated by an IP poster. I still recommend using a Windows box for the job, a cheap 75Mhz Pentium with Windows 95 will easily handle 7 TELNET connections at 9600 baud. I am moving mine over to a new Celeron box tomorrow morning for dedicated 24/7 connections to my PDP-8/11s http://www.pdp8.com/1135.htm Anyone here have any vintage software to run on a PDP-11 as a front end connection server? Waterloo University used a PDP-11/45 back in the '70s in front of their *huge* cluster of some 3-500 DEC minicomputers. I've got heaps of DZ,DL,etc.. from the warehouse so serial ports are not a problem. Expect the first version of DOS/BATCH-11 next week. No electricity costs here ;-) john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Mar 14 23:02:57 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Swap Meet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000314210257.0095f470@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 20:39 12-03-2000 -0800, John Lawson dared me to... > So... where's the detailed Swap Meet Report???? > > We're waiting... >PS: Post to The List if you dare... :) Ok, I dare. ;-) The Puyallup swap this year was quite crowded compared with last year. I managed to sell a bunch of stuff that I didn't think I would, and some stuff that I thought would sell (almost) didn't. For the record, I sold all the Exabyte drives (the 8500's are holding here for checks from the purchasers -- thanks, guys!) and the small UPS I had. I don't think any of the buyers (with three exceptions) were classiccmp'ers, but all business was appreciated. There were equal amounts of joy and irritation with this year's event. On the 'joy' side was, certainly, good sales. Add to that my finding of not one, but TWO Amp 'Butterfly' tools (if you don't know what one is, you'll have trouble appreciating it), plus some spare batteries for the pair of radios I use for SwapComm and a nice mid-80's vintage Amprobe clamp-on AC meter, and I think I did pretty well. On the irritation side. One fellow showed up with a beautiful mil-spec HF receiver. Those of you familiar with the radio side of things will likely recognize the designation of R-2174(P)/URR, a.k.a. the Racal 6790. It was in great shape, came with its manual and power cord, and had a sticker price of $1,275. Those of you who know this receiver will know immediately that this is a bit exorbitant. In prime shape, they're worth about a grand, and that's what I offered the fellow for it (knowing full well that I'd be going into debt for six months to pay it off!). He insisted on waiting until the end of the day. However, at day's end, I came back to find him wrapping it up. Upon asking what was up, he told me (rather brusquely) that someone had paid him $2,000 in CASH for it. Initially, I was stunned. Not only was that over twice what the unit was worth, but it astounded me that ANYone would be (a) walking around with two grand in cash in their pocket, and (b) would use it to buy a mid-80's HF receiver, however nice. I walked away from that one fuming. In retrospect, and after talking to a friend of mine, it is now my firm belief that the owner was lying through his teeth in an effort to cover the fact that no one had been willing to pay his outrageous sticker price. Here's why I think this. 1). He was wrapping the receiver up as if to ship it. If someone was crazy enough to pay $2K for that unit, said buyer would have taken it with them ON THE SPOT. 2). The seller's attitude throughout the day was loud, obnoxious, and forceful on trying to sell things. Too forceful, in fact. He wouldn't dicker beyond a certain point, and he seemed borderline arrogant in every dealing he had with those around him. From what I could tell, he sold very little that day. 3). His body language, as he was wrapping up the receiver, was most definitely NOT that of someone who'd just closed a two-grand sale. It was more along the lines of "I'm taking my ball and going HOME! To blazes with this whole mess!!" Anyway, that's about it. I deposited more back into the bank than I took out to cover my purchases, so I think I did pretty well. Eric Smith came by on Sunday to pick up the DSD-880's I had for him, plus some other goodies, and it was he who bought my last Exabyte drive. Eric, if you're reading this, thanks again and enjoy! Guess I'll just have to do it again next year. Heck, I might rent a table just to get in early. Let's hope that, if someone has a similar receiver next year, they'll be more serious about selling it at a reasonable price. Caveat (burp) Emperor! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Mar 14 23:10:09 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Power supply for TS2068? Message-ID: <18.1a0d78f.26007531@aol.com> Cameron wrote: In a message dated 03/14/2000 5:10:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, ckaiser@oa.ptloma.edu writes: > Does anyone have a power supply pinout or info for the TS2068? I didn't > get a good look at the unit (it appeared in good physical shape), but it has > no > power supply and I'm unwilling to buy it merely for collectable value (all > my classic computers do WORK, darn it!). Well, okay, the KIM-1 doesn't. :-) What you need is a 15-24 VDC supply which can put out one amp, center negative. The 2068 is a very nice machine, but was abandoned when Timex ceased production. Very little software was produced for it, but with a Spectrum emulator cartridge you will have access to over 10,000 programs which are posted on the 'net. Disk drive interfaces are still available -- brand new -- as well as centronics i/fs and even EPROM burners, if you want to take it that far. I also have a speech synth and tape drives attached to mine. If you can get the machine for under $100, and it works, and you don't mind spending a little more time and $$ chasing down some extra hardware for it, you can put together a pretty cool 8 bit system with one of these. I use mine every day. If you need some more help let me know off list Glen Goodwin 0/0 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Mar 14 23:19:05 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: IBM Channel attach (for DEC) Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000314211718.00b372b0@mcmanis.com> Hello all, I picked up a nice DEC cabinet and nestled inside of it was a DEC Channel server which is apparently a MicroVAX II, 8MB of RAM, and a four or five board set that connects to an IBM "channel". Does anyone have any interest in the channel interface and the cab kit? (I've got designs on the BA23 and the rack which is what I wanted in the first place. --Chuck From liste at artware.qc.ca Tue Mar 14 23:19:35 2000 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: So I poked my nose into the local Salvation Army, on the off chance they have one of those 60s style stereo "furniture" things. The kind with a radio, turntable, red velvet booze drawer and obligatory lounge hits LP, all disguised as a small sideboard. They didn't, but they did have a C-64. Now I'm young enough that the first PC I got to play on was an IBM PCjr. So I know very little about C-64s. However, 10 dollars canadian got me : C-64 Personal Computer 2 x 1541 floppy drives (one w/ lever, one w/ "door") MPS 1200 dot matrix printer w/ tractor feed Joystick (wico) power supply, some cables, manual for C-64 (not PC) and monitor All the above is dirty, though no scratches nor dents. Conspicously missing : Monitor Software I've tested the C-64 by plugging in a floppy drive in, turning everything on, and blind-typing load "foo",8. Red LED on the drive came on, noises were made, red LED started a blinken. When I turn the printer on, the LEDs come on, the out of paper LED flashes. FF causes the (imaginary) paper to feed. LF works also. This printer reminds a lot of my old Epson LX-80. So now the call for help. What sites would you recomend to learn about hacking these things? Is there software available? Can one get floppy images and write them w/ a 5.25" drive on modern PCs? When I get a TV or monitor rigged up, I'd like to learn 6502 assembler (I already know z80 and 8086 assembler). There is a port marked "serial" on back. I'm guessing that all the periferals plug into this. Floppy drives and printer. (Hmm... if the MPS-1200 is a serial printer, could one get a converter and plug it into a wyse 85 or vt220?) The other thing I would like to do is hook it up to my main computer (prolly as a serial terminal) and then get on the net. I aim to recreate the authentic B1FF experience. :) The manual leads me to believe the serial port on a C-64 isn't compatible w/ RS-232, however. :( -Philip From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Mar 14 23:52:19 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC In-Reply-To: from "liste@artware.qc.ca" at Mar 15, 2000 12:19:35 AM Message-ID: <200003150552.WAA11074@calico.litterbox.com> > > So I poked my nose into the local Salvation Army, on the off chance they > have one of those 60s style stereo "furniture" things. The kind with a > radio, turntable, red velvet booze drawer and obligatory lounge hits LP, > all disguised as a small sideboard. > > They didn't, but they did have a C-64. Now I'm young enough that the > first PC I got to play on was an IBM PCjr. So I know very little > about C-64s. However, 10 dollars canadian got me : > > C-64 Personal Computer > 2 x 1541 floppy drives (one w/ lever, one w/ "door") > MPS 1200 dot matrix printer w/ tractor feed > Joystick (wico) > power supply, some cables, manual for C-64 (not PC) and monitor > > All the above is dirty, though no scratches nor dents. > > Conspicously missing : > Monitor > Software > > I've tested the C-64 by plugging in a floppy drive in, turning everything > on, and blind-typing load "foo",8. Red LED on the drive came on, noises > were made, red LED started a blinken. > > When I turn the printer on, the LEDs come on, the out of paper LED > flashes. FF causes the (imaginary) paper to feed. LF works also. This > printer reminds a lot of my old Epson LX-80. > > So now the call for help. What sites would you recomend to learn about > hacking these things? Is there software available? Can one get floppy > images and write them w/ a 5.25" drive on modern PCs? When I get a TV or > monitor rigged up, I'd like to learn 6502 assembler (I already know z80 > and 8086 assembler). > > There is a port marked "serial" on back. I'm guessing that all the > periferals plug into this. Floppy drives and printer. (Hmm... if the > MPS-1200 is a serial printer, could one get a converter and plug it into a > wyse 85 or vt220?) > > The other thing I would like to do is hook it up to my main computer > (prolly as a serial terminal) and then get on the net. I aim to recreate > the authentic B1FF experience. :) The manual leads me to believe the > serial port on a C-64 isn't compatible w/ RS-232, however. :( The serial port on the c64 IS RS232 compatible, but it uses ttl level signals instead of the normal ones. The adapters just (if memory serves) raise the signal levels to rs232 standards. It only goes up to 2400 baud with the existing bios, although the chip goes (I think) to 9600 if you reprogram it. For this reason plugging the serial printer into any standard RS232 device is probably not a good idea. I believe there is an OS that was written for the 64 that has an IP stack, although I don't remember where you'd look for it. It was someone's college project. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Mar 15 00:23:10 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have a pinout of the RS232 port (and some details) at: http://www.retrobytes.org/pinouts/serial/c64_user-port_as_rs-232_serial.txt I don't believe you can reliably write C64 disks with a PC floppy drive, however there is a cable/software available to connect the commodore floppy drive directly to your PC. As far as sites, a quick web search will probably turn up more sites than you can read in a month...it's a thriving community. Cheers, Aaron On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 liste@artware.qc.ca wrote: > So I poked my nose into the local Salvation Army, on the off chance they > have one of those 60s style stereo "furniture" things. The kind with a > radio, turntable, red velvet booze drawer and obligatory lounge hits LP, > all disguised as a small sideboard. > > They didn't, but they did have a C-64. Now I'm young enough that the > first PC I got to play on was an IBM PCjr. So I know very little > about C-64s. However, 10 dollars canadian got me : > > C-64 Personal Computer > 2 x 1541 floppy drives (one w/ lever, one w/ "door") > MPS 1200 dot matrix printer w/ tractor feed > Joystick (wico) > power supply, some cables, manual for C-64 (not PC) and monitor > > All the above is dirty, though no scratches nor dents. > > Conspicously missing : > Monitor > Software > > I've tested the C-64 by plugging in a floppy drive in, turning everything > on, and blind-typing load "foo",8. Red LED on the drive came on, noises > were made, red LED started a blinken. > > When I turn the printer on, the LEDs come on, the out of paper LED > flashes. FF causes the (imaginary) paper to feed. LF works also. This > printer reminds a lot of my old Epson LX-80. > > So now the call for help. What sites would you recomend to learn about > hacking these things? Is there software available? Can one get floppy > images and write them w/ a 5.25" drive on modern PCs? When I get a TV or > monitor rigged up, I'd like to learn 6502 assembler (I already know z80 > and 8086 assembler). > > There is a port marked "serial" on back. I'm guessing that all the > periferals plug into this. Floppy drives and printer. (Hmm... if the > MPS-1200 is a serial printer, could one get a converter and plug it into a > wyse 85 or vt220?) > > The other thing I would like to do is hook it up to my main computer > (prolly as a serial terminal) and then get on the net. I aim to recreate > the authentic B1FF experience. :) The manual leads me to believe the > serial port on a C-64 isn't compatible w/ RS-232, however. :( > > -Philip > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 15 00:27:05 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC In-Reply-To: <200003150552.WAA11074@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Mar 14, 2000 10:52:19 PM Message-ID: <200003150627.WAA19779@shell1.aracnet.com> > I believe there is an OS that was written for the 64 that has an IP stack, > although I don't remember where you'd look for it. It was someone's college > project. > -- > Jim Strickland I had thought so also, and was looking for it a few months ago but couldn't find it. If anyone knows anything about this, I'd love to hear about it. Actually what I was really looking for IIRC, was info on a Web browser for the C64, which ISTR existing. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 15 00:58:06 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Mar 14, 2000 10:23:10 PM Message-ID: <200003150658.WAA22542@shell1.aracnet.com> > I don't believe you can reliably write C64 disks with a PC floppy drive, > however there is a cable/software available to connect the commodore > floppy drive directly to your PC. As far as sites, a quick web search will > probably turn up more sites than you can read in a month...it's a thriving > community. > > Cheers, > > Aaron Actually you can write C64 disks with a PC floppy drive *BUT* you need a controller that costs about $100. An X1542 cable on the other hand works great if you don't wire it in reverse (at which point you would have to take it apart and rewire it :^) All this talk of the C64 makes me want to find someplace to set one of mine back up, preferably with the monitor. Of course I've got zero room for that :^( Zane From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Wed Mar 15 02:51:16 2000 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC In-Reply-To: <200003150627.WAA19779@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On 15-Mar-2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: >> I believe there is an OS that was written for the 64 that has an IP >> stack, although I don't remember where you'd look for it. It was >> someone's college project. >> -- >> Jim Strickland > > I had thought so also, and was looking for it a few months ago but > couldn't find it. If anyone knows anything about this, I'd love to > hear about it. Little Unix, Next Generation ttp://www.heilbronn.netsurf.de/%7Edallmann/lunix/lng.html Someone has to much Copious Spare Time. OK, now I *have* to get this working! > Actually what I was really looking for IIRC, was info on a Web browser > for the C64, which ISTR existing. I haven't found this yet. And I don't know why I was supprised when I first read your post. Browsers are up there with IRC clients and MUAs in the "a new one every day" catagory. Browsing the web from a C-64 would be in the same class as browsing the web from a vt220 (which I've done often :). Hmm.... I wonder if TTY doom would work... -Philip From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Wed Mar 15 02:55:00 2000 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC In-Reply-To: <200003150627.WAA19779@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On 15-Mar-2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > I had thought so also, and was looking for it a few months ago but > couldn't find it. If anyone knows anything about this, I'd love to > hear about it. Actually what I was really looking for IIRC, was info > on a Web browser for the C64, which ISTR existing. > > Zane http://hem.passagen.se/harlekin/html.htm ... It's more an HTML viewer, but still. -Philip From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Mar 15 05:14:42 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC In-Reply-To: References: <200003150627.WAA19779@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <200003151015.LAA12968@mail2.siemens.de> > > I had thought so also, and was looking for it a few months ago but > > couldn't find it. If anyone knows anything about this, I'd love to > > hear about it. Actually what I was really looking for IIRC, was info > > on a Web browser for the C64, which ISTR existing. > http://hem.passagen.se/harlekin/html.htm ... It's more an HTML viewer, but > still. It just works on disk files, and it isn't maintained since more than a year. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Mar 15 08:00:11 2000 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC Message-ID: <802568A3.004CCE02.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Jim Strickland wrote: > The serial port on the c64 IS RS232 compatible, but it uses ttl level signals > instead of the normal ones. The adapters just (if memory serves) raise the > signal levels to rs232 standards. It only goes up to 2400 baud with the > existing bios, although the chip goes (I think) to 9600 if you reprogram it. > > For this reason plugging the serial printer into any standard RS232 device is > probably not a good idea. For the uninitiated, I think I must at this point issue a warning: THERE ARE TWO SERIAL PORTS ON THE COMMODORE 64. One is a (can't remember how many. 5+/-1)-pin DIN connector. This is Commodore's serial version of GPIB, and is where disk drives and things go. The other is the RS232. I can't remember whether that's a separate connector, or simply pins on the user port. I would guess the printer goes in the same port as the disk drive, if it is one of Commodore's own-badged Epson things. IIRC you daisy chain them - one cable 64 - Disk drive, next cable disk drive - printer, etc. Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Mar 15 08:24:08 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: Swap Meet In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000314210257.0095f470@mail.bluefeathertech.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000315082338.0211d730@pc> At 09:02 PM 3/14/00 -0800, Bruce Lane wrote: > For the record, I sold all the Exabyte drives (the 8500's are holding here >for checks from the purchasers -- thanks, guys!) and the small UPS I had. I >don't think any of the buyers (with three exceptions) were classiccmp'ers, >but all business was appreciated. My check will be sent out today, sorry about the delay... - John From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Mar 15 08:56:24 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: HP 3000/37 Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D60C7AA7@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Hi gang, Went with Joe Rigdon last weekend and picked up a HP 3000/37 that he had spotted. The unit was mounted in a short cabinet with several 670H drives. It had been sitting partially covered in a scrap dealers yard in the Orlando area. Thankfully, it's not the rainy season so, it was still in pretty good shape. When I got it home and opened the computer up, it really wasn't that dirty inside. I just dusted the boards off, checked the connectors for corrosion, and reassembled it. The switch on the front panel was gummed-up and stuck in the off position. I broke it trying to work it loose and had to do some microsurgery to get it working again. I opened up each of the 670H drive cabinets, dusted them out, and reassembled. When plugged in, everyone of them gives a green light. A couple of them sounded a little funky during their first spin-up but, they all seem to be working now. Obviously, they had been sitting for a long time and were reluctant about going back to work. I can relate to that :-) All in all, I got (8) 670H, (6) 7963B, and a 7936 (I think that's correct) drive. The 7963B can support multiple drives in the same cabinet but, these only had one drive each. The 7936 is a big sucker. Similar to the 7937 "Eagle" drives. I've previously had trouble with Eagle drives so, I haven't even tried to power that one up, yet. These are 8" belt-driven monsters that are sensitive to shock and inactivity. The belts get all gooey and are a pain in the butt to clean. Last time I tackled one of these, I strained my back trying to put it back in the cabinet. That particular drive crashed within a week and really pissed me off. I mounted 3 of the 670H drives in the cabinet with the 3000, connected my tape drive, and powered everything up. After much dinking, I was finally able to install the OS from the MPE FOS tapes. I'm still a rooky at MPE but, after threee days of tinkering, I got it to work... YIPEE!!! Let me tell ya, over the last few days, I have learned a LOT about installing that OS. Still having trouble configuring the system with a line printer. Not sure if the problem is with the printer, the configuration, or me (naw couldn't be). When I connect my HPIB printer, the system has trouble finding other devices on that chain. That printer was working with my /42 but, it was on a port all by itsself. The /37 doesn't have as many I/O ports as the /42 so, my options are considerably more limited. Anyway, I finally have a "Classic 3000" that doesn't double as a space heater. Both me and my air-conditioner are happy. Many thanks to Joe for turning me on to this *great* find. See Ya, Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000315/6d775006/attachment.html From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Mar 15 10:12:54 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: HP 3000/37 In-Reply-To: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D60C7AA7@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Message-ID: This is great, Steve! Congrats! One typo, though...I think you left the "r" out of "drinking"...;) On Wed, 15 Mar 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: > tape drive, and powered everything up. After much dinking, I was finally > able to install the OS from the MPE FOS tapes. I'm still a rooky at MPE but, From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Mar 15 10:31:03 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: HP 3000/37 In-Reply-To: Steve Robertson's message of "Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:56:24 -0500" References: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D60C7AA7@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <200003151631.IAA01753@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Steve Robertson wrote: > Still having trouble configuring the system with a line printer. Not sure if > the problem is with the printer, the configuration, or me (naw couldn't be). > When I connect my HPIB printer, the system has trouble finding other devices > on that chain. That printer was working with my /42 but, it was on a port > all by itsself. The /37 doesn't have as many I/O ports as the /42 so, my > options are considerably more limited. Mixing high- and low-speed devices on the same HP-IB channel is not recommended. And adding I/O to the /37 is hard -- there are five slots, and between CPU, memory, ATP/M (serial I/O), and GIC (HP-IB) you're already using at least four. The fifth slot is often occupied by more memory or something else (e.g. an INP or LANIC). I think there's a way to add a second card cage to a /37 but I'm not sure I've ever seen that done. So if you really want a printer, you might want to think about a serial printer plugged into one of the ATP ports. I used to run a 2563A that way in the mid-1980s; 9600 bps did OK at keeping up with a 300 LPM printer that was used to print COBOL listings. > Anyway, I finally have a "Classic 3000" that doesn't double as a space > heater. Both me and my air-conditioner are happy. Many thanks to Joe for > turning me on to this *great* find. I'm glad someone got it. Joe told me about it too but I couldn't see shipping it all the way to California -- already got two /37s and don't have anywhere to put a 7937-sized disc right now. -Frank McConnell From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Mar 15 11:17:26 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:11 2005 Subject: HP 3000/37 In-Reply-To: <200003151631.IAA01753@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 15 Mar 2000, Frank McConnell wrote: > And adding I/O to the /37 is hard -- there are five slots, and between > CPU, memory, ATP/M (serial I/O), and GIC (HP-IB) you're already using > at least four. The fifth slot is often occupied by more memory or > something else (e.g. an INP or LANIC). I think there's a way to add a > second card cage to a /37 but I'm not sure I've ever seen that done. My /37 is actually a Micro3000XE; two 3000 cages wired together (internally at the backplane). From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Mar 15 11:40:57 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC In-Reply-To: <802568A3.004CCE02.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at "Mar 15, 0 02:00:11 pm" Message-ID: <200003151741.JAA08070@oa.ptloma.edu> ::For the uninitiated, I think I must at this point issue a warning: :: ::THERE ARE TWO SERIAL PORTS ON THE COMMODORE 64. :: ::One is a (can't remember how many. 5+/-1)-pin DIN connector. This is ::Commodore's serial version of GPIB, and is where disk drives and things go. :: ::The other is the RS232. I can't remember whether that's a separate ::connector, ::or simply pins on the user port. It's the port, but it needs conversion. The 64 does not have a "serial port" in the PC sense per se. I hook up a PeeCee modem to mine through the user port using a converter that fixes the voltage differences and maps the pins correctly. You can also buy accelerators that connect the RS232 lines right into the system bus, which is much faster (CMD T232s, SwiftLinks, DataPumps) but needs clued software to drive them which fortunately is readily available. When you say serial port to a Commodore nut, we think the IEC serial bus, which is where disk drives and Commodore-compatible printers go. Printer interfaces connect there too. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. -- Jack Paar ---------------- From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Mar 15 11:49:09 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC In-Reply-To: <200003150627.WAA19779@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "Mar 14, 0 10:27:05 pm" Message-ID: <200003151749.JAA09364@oa.ptloma.edu> ::I had thought so also, and was looking for it a few months ago but couldn't ::find it. If anyone knows anything about this, I'd love to hear about it. ::Actually what I was really looking for IIRC, was info on a Web browser for ::the C64, which ISTR existing. There are actually two in development. "The Wave" http://people.delphi.com/arca93/ is the first. It requires mucho hardware (you need a SuperCPU with minimum 1MB RAM plus the Wheels OS) but supports true PPP and includes a full stack and standard Internet services with all the trimmings. It has been finished and is being disseminated to testers. The second I know considerably better because *I'm* the author. http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/hl/web.html HyperLink 2.5 supports most of HTML 1.0 and displays black-and-white .jpgs and .gifs (I believe The Wave does this in colour, but you need a tricked-out 128 in VDC mode to do it). It doesn't need CPU acceleration; you run a Perl proxy on a shell account (hence a shell dialup is mandatory) which handles the image and HTML translation, spitting out directives to the HL2.5 markup engine. This means it will run on any Commodore, and can go as low as 1200bps (I think the low end for The Wave is 9.6k but I don't know). I expect to get it in a releaseable form by early summer this year. The bottom line is that HL2.5 is intended for Commodore users who can't or won't upgrade, and The Wave for the big league systems. Maurice Randall, the author of The Wave, has already stated he will not release a stock system version; as for my part, I don't have an SCPU, so I won't be writing a *non*-stock app myself. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- If a seagull flies over the sea, what flies over the bay? ------------------ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Mar 15 11:42:00 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Apollo 735 is ALIVE In-Reply-To: <200003151015.LAA12968@mail2.siemens.de> References: <200003150627.WAA19779@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: Finally I just got to play with one of my Apollo workstations. Good news, it boots up, well sort of, and my 1097C monitor works fine. The sort of boots up is where I am stuck, looks like maybe the second SCSI drive is flakey (it didn't spin up until I pressed the TOC button on the front of the console and a boot device search started), or HP-UX is missing or damaged. It tries to run something called 9000/700 and fails. Info on the system is 80 MB ram, 2 SCSI drives (size unknown?), and from running the ODE a little it tells me I have a 203H processor. Its an Apollo 735, and the prompt is IPL>. I have four more to play with, but if anybody has some quick hints on how to procede, show drive sizes, run drive diagnostics etc. email me. Begging everyones pardon with this 1992 system. From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Wed Mar 15 12:11:28 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: HP 3000/37 References: Message-ID: <38CFD250.A666B1FA@roanoke.infi.net> I'm pretty sure I've got a couple of spare 3000 cardcages [rack mount units--6+ ?? cards high] if you need one. Craig Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > On 15 Mar 2000, Frank McConnell wrote: > > > And adding I/O to the /37 is hard -- there are five slots, and between > > CPU, memory, ATP/M (serial I/O), and GIC (HP-IB) you're already using > > at least four. The fifth slot is often occupied by more memory or > > something else (e.g. an INP or LANIC). I think there's a way to add a > > second card cage to a /37 but I'm not sure I've ever seen that done. > > My /37 is actually a Micro3000XE; two 3000 cages wired together > (internally at the backplane). From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 15 12:43:46 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC In-Reply-To: References: <200003150627.WAA19779@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >Little Unix, Next Generation >http://www.heilbronn.netsurf.de/%7Edallmann/lunix/lng.html >Someone has to much Copious Spare Time. OK, now I *have* to get this >working! I've actually had an earlier version of this up and running. It was semi-cool at that point, looks most interesting now :^) Though from the looks of it maybe I should break out the C128 instead of a C64! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 15 12:35:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Mutant01 IP = 205.138.39.180 In-Reply-To: <002001bf8e31$51c0e140$3f25d1d8@default> from "John B" at Mar 14, 0 10:48:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1047 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000315/0d656398/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 15 12:51:35 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC In-Reply-To: from "liste@artware.qc.ca" at Mar 15, 0 00:19:35 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4950 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000315/db4d0648/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 15 13:09:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC In-Reply-To: <802568A3.004CCE02.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Mar 15, 0 02:00:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 589 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000315/7adce975/attachment.ksh From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Mar 15 15:02:47 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Mutant01 IP = 205.138.39.180 In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 06:35:58PM +0000 References: <002001bf8e31$51c0e140$3f25d1d8@default> Message-ID: <20000315160247.A14726@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 06:35:58PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > Anyone here have any vintage software to run on a PDP-11 as a front end > > connection server? Waterloo University used a PDP-11/45 back in the '70s in > > front of their *huge* cluster of some 3-500 DEC minicomputers. I've got > > heaps of DZ,DL,etc.. from the warehouse so serial ports are not a problem. > > Cambridge Universtiy (UK) did something similar as a frontend to their > IBM 3084 mainframe. RPI did the same kind of thing on their mainframes (3033, 3081D, 3090, ES/9000). The first system (since I was there) used PDP-11/34(s) and was called simply the FEP (front end processor), it was dependent on the host system for help with scrollback buffers etc., so if the mainframe went down so did the FEP. Then later they switched to a bunch of 11/73s called NIMs (network interface machine), running software developed at UBC (in the PLUS programming language, for which a PDP-11 cross-compiler existed on the mainframe). They had lots of their own memory and were independent from the mainframe, essentially they were big fat terminal servers. IIRC they spoke X.25 to the mainframe (with the "VTP" virtual terminal protocol running on top of that, or optionally X.29 (??)), but they also could do TCP/IP for talking to everyone else. But I don't understand what the goal is here. Just a reverse terminal server to hook up to a bunch of non-TCP/IP-aware PDPs using serial lines? I don't know of anything like that, although it shouldn't be *that* hard to write. I've never played with the MINITS system but AFAIK it's just some kind of TAC system, maybe it could be turned around backwards and adapted for this? Anyway last time I put a non-TCP/IP-aware PDP-11 compatible system on the net I just used a Linux box with a version of telnetd hacked to use serial ports instead of PTYs, it's cheating but it was very fast and at least it spoke "modern" TCP/IP. John Wilson D Bit From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Wed Mar 15 14:04:38 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC References: Message-ID: <000401bf8ec5$e49477e0$3eeb93c3@proteus> Hi, > There is a port marked "serial" on back. I'm guessing >that all the periferals plug into this. Floppy drives >and printer.... That's correct. Almost all peripherals attach to the "serial" connector, you simply daisychain one peripheral off of the previous one. There are a very few peripherals that connect to the cartridge port and still fewer that connect to the user port - about the only thing I recall that used the user port was a printer interface and CBM's own RS-232 "cartridge". >....(Hmm... if the MPS-1200 is a serial printer, could one >get a converter and plug it into a wyse 85 or vt220?) Not if it attaches to the "serial" connector. The "serial" bus is actually a bastardised implementation of the IEEE-488 bus, which CBM had used on the PET series. Data is transferred serially (at 300 baud) instead of in parallel, other than that I believe it's pretty much IEEE. >....The manual leads me to believe the serial port on a C-64 >isn't compatible w/ RS-232, however. :( That's correct, however, the "user port" is able to emulate an RS-232 port in software....BUT you need some external circuitry to buffer the signals and convert them to RS-232 levels. As I mentioned above, CBM used to produce such a unit and I'm sure many other companies did too. I built my own buffer, all you need is a MAX-232 chip and a handful of resistors and capacitors. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Wed Mar 15 14:52:01 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question References: <20000313175036.11208.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> <012301bf8d68$fdb86aa0$19e893c3@proteus> <20000314194550.11694.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <000601bf8ec5$e682da60$3eeb93c3@proteus> Hi, >> Can anyone say "Sinclair ZX-80"...? :-( > > Not the same sort of thing at all.... I know....I was being facetious.... :-) >....The video is done by "real" video hardware that happens >to be integrated onto the same chip.... That could be a real boon for embedded applications, laptops etc. I take it this is the market they're aiming the chip at? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Wed Mar 15 14:48:31 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question References: <20000313175036.11208.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> <012301bf8d68$fdb86aa0$19e893c3@proteus> <20000313235236.A7879@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <000501bf8ec5$e5c297a0$3eeb93c3@proteus> Hi John, >> Can anyone say "Sinclair ZX-80"...? :-( > > Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but when I read that I assumed >it was just the usual WinChip CPU.... I must admit, I haven't come across those - but then again I make a point of NOT following developments in the x86, Pentium etc world.... >....but in any case I think it's a normal socket 7 CPU, not >some horrible thing that does video on the fly on top of >normal work. I was having visions of PCs which blank the screen while running a program....shudder.... ;-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Wed Mar 15 14:54:37 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: PDP-11 Emulator Question References: <20000314065127.18858.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701bf8ec5$e7431d20$3eeb93c3@proteus> Hi, > There is some form of recognized video chip on the iOpener, >but it _does_ use main memory as video RAM. Yes, I've seen a fair few recent motherboards with on-board AGP video which do that. I've often wondered what sort of performance hit you take, if any, for doing things that way? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Wed Mar 15 15:23:19 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Dayton Computerfest finds References: <200003140552.XAA21584@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <000901bf8ec5$eac454a0$3eeb93c3@proteus> Hi Paul, >....You need the Newton Connection Kit for Mac (or PC). Two >different products. Don't get Newton Connection Utilities.... Thanks, I knew there were two different programs but I didn't know which one I needed. I think mine is running 1.11.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Mar 15 15:35:43 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: HP 3000/37 Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D60C7BAE@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> My /37 has all five slots filled. The CPU, 2 HP-IB cards, memory, and the serial card with 6 ports. When I had the case open, I noticed a bus connector just behind the front panel. There is a cutout in the chassis above the connector where a ribbon cable could be passed to another backplane. I guess you could stack another chassis on top of this one. Steve Robertson > -----Original Message----- > From: Craig Smith [mailto:ip500@roanoke.infi.net] > Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 1:11 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: HP 3000/37 > > > I'm pretty sure I've got a couple of spare 3000 cardcages [rack mount > units--6+ ?? cards high] if you need one. > Craig > > Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > > On 15 Mar 2000, Frank McConnell wrote: > > > > > And adding I/O to the /37 is hard -- there are five > slots, and between > > > CPU, memory, ATP/M (serial I/O), and GIC (HP-IB) you're > already using > > > at least four. The fifth slot is often occupied by more memory or > > > something else (e.g. an INP or LANIC). I think there's a > way to add a > > > second card cage to a /37 but I'm not sure I've ever seen > that done. > > > > My /37 is actually a Micro3000XE; two 3000 cages wired together > > (internally at the backplane). > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000315/4be1fb32/attachment.html From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Mar 15 15:57:37 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Initial tests -- good! Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000315135737.00922e90@mail.bluefeathertech.com> DSL is in and functional, at least at a basic level. I can't -believe- the speed increase! With basic router configuration dealt with, I'm going to (over the course of the next couple of weeks) get the servers and DNS authority taken care of. I'll post a note when I have my domain entirely under my control. Honestly, I'm surprised the router configuration was as easy as it was. Definitely something to be said for Livingston boxes... Gotta run back to work for a while. See you lot later! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed Mar 15 16:04:41 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Apollo 735 is ALIVE References: <200003150627.WAA19779@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <38D008F9.866ABE75@cornell.edu> Hi Mike; please see my replies below: Mike Ford wrote: > > Finally I just got to play with one of my Apollo workstations. Good news, > it boots up, well sort of, and my 1097C monitor works fine. The sort of > boots up is where I am stuck, looks like maybe the second SCSI drive is > flakey (it didn't spin up until I pressed the TOC button on the front of > the console and a boot device search started), or HP-UX is missing or > damaged. It could be that there is no primary or alternate boot path defined. It won't spin up a drive unless it needs to. > It tries to run something called 9000/700 and fails. Yes, it looks like hpux is busted. > Info on the system is > > 80 MB ram, 2 SCSI drives (size unknown?), and from running the ODE a little > it tells me I have a 203H processor. Its an Apollo 735, and the prompt is > IPL>. > > I have four more to play with, but if anybody has some quick hints on how > to procede, show drive sizes, run drive diagnostics etc. email me. What are the model numbers on the drives? If you type the ESC key while it is searching for a bootable device, it will present you several options; choose the boot administration mode (option "a"). Once there, type "help" to get a list of available commands. Among other things, you can ask/set the fastboot flag, and the primary/alternate boot devices. Typing "info" you give you a summary of harware info. When you get it up and running, the following will be useful links: All sorts of precompiled software for HPUX http://hpux.cae.wisc.edu/ HPUX manuals http://docs.hp.com/hpux/index.html Where to get info on Y2K patches: http://www.hp.com/visualize/programs/y2k/y2k_menu/y2k_upgr/oskit.html http://www.software.hp.com/products/Y2K/index.html and over here, you can actually order CD's with the latest Y2K patches over the web, no cost. They used to distribute the core OS installer for HPUX 10.20 too , but now the kit only comes with the patches. http://www.software.hp.com/products/Y2K/cd_info.html Hardware compatibility guides at http://puffin.external.hp.com/docs/980723.pdf (9MB) and http://puffin.external.hp.com/docs/980723ng.pdf (1.1MB) -- Carlos Murillo-Sanchez email: cem14@cornell.edu 428 Phillips Hall, Electrical Engineering Department Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853 From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Wed Mar 15 17:04:20 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: HP Apollo/9000s Message-ID: <017f01bf8ed2$f4c830e0$3eeb93c3@proteus> Hi Does anyone know of a FAQ or other document which describes the HP Apollo (700 series?) and/or the HP-9000 series of PA-RISC machines (9000/7xx?). I've had a look around but can't find anything, even on the HP site (just details of the latest machines). TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From oliv555 at arrl.net Wed Mar 15 17:03:54 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: DEC drives References: <200003150348.WAA05636@world.std.com> Message-ID: <38D016DA.7043DC26@arrl.net> Megan wrote: > Easy way to know... the power connector will be 4-pin for SCSI > and 5-pin for DSSI (at least all the ones I have are like that). Thanks for the tip. Hadn't even taken note of that, it is a 5-pin. Though I would not have been disappointed if they were SCSI's. My m76 and model60 could use a 852Mb boost over the dinky little RZ's they came with. Thanks ....... Nick From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Mar 15 17:48:34 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: what is a commodore B128 ? Message-ID: saw one when doing my thrift store runs. opened but still in box. looks like it might be a refurb unit. looks like just a bigger 64. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm --You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think-- From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed Mar 15 17:49:39 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Compaq keyboard trivia. In-Reply-To: <20000315042344.50133.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000315184939.00fd8ecc@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 04:23 AM 03/15/2000 GMT, you wrote: >As all most of us "Old-timers" know, when you read a prompt that reads "To >continue, press any key", pressing any key on the keyboard will take you to >whatever is next. I read recently that on a few Compaq keyboards there >actually was a key labelled the "Any" key! Now *that's* what I call >idiot-proofing! (iSore, eat your processor out!) The keyboard in my HP 9000-200 also has an "any" key :-) . Carlos. From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed Mar 15 18:22:51 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: HP Apollo/9000s In-Reply-To: <017f01bf8ed2$f4c830e0$3eeb93c3@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000315192251.00fdb8f0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Hi Peter. Try http://hpux.cae.wisc.edu/hppd/FAQ/ At 11:04 PM 03/15/2000 -0000, you wrote: >Hi Does anyone know of a FAQ or other document which describes the HP Apollo >(700 series?) and/or the HP-9000 series of PA-RISC machines (9000/7xx?). From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 15 18:52:37 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Mutant01 IP = 205.138.39.180 In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Mutant01 IP = 205.138.39.180" (Mar 15, 18:35) References: Message-ID: <10003160052.ZM4687@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 15, 18:35, Tony Duell wrote: > > Anyone here have any vintage software to run on a PDP-11 as a front end > > connection server? Nope, I don't have the software, but one of my 11/23's was originally a TCP (see below) at Edinburgh University. > > Waterloo University used a PDP-11/45 back in the '70s in > > front of their *huge* cluster of some 3-500 DEC minicomputers. I've got > > heaps of DZ,DL,etc.. from the warehouse so serial ports are not a problem. > > Cambridge Universtiy (UK) did something similar as a frontend to their > IBM 3084 mainframe. > > As I understand it, the system consisted of units called JNT-PADs (which > were basically Async -> X25 PADs) which took incoming connections from > terminals and then sent them (as X25 packets) to DUP11s. There were other > DUP11s handling external connections to/from JANET (UK academic network). > Some local terminal connections came in on DJ11 lines. These were on the > Unibus of a number of PDP11s (11/45s, later 11/34s) which communicated via > DMC11s and DMR11s. There were a couple of DX11s that linked the PDP's to > an IBM channel. Edinburgh Regional Computing Centre (part of Edinburgh University) used to do something similar. According to the chart I still have (dated 1985), ERCC had eleven 11/10s, eight 11/23s, three 11/40s, and a few 11/34s and 11/03s connected as Terminal Control Processors (TCPs, basically front end processors for fixed or dialup terminal lines). I'm not sure what the interfaces were, but my 11/23 had a pair of DLV11-Js when I got it, and originally a synchronous line as well (which I think went to a GEC packet switch). ERCC also had an 11/34 and an 11/40 connected to the central processors to handle "slow devices", and fourteen CAMTEC PADs, as well as several VAXen, other PDP-11s running RSX, a few Systimes, a few Pr1mes, a couple of DEC 10s, an Amdahl 470, a few big ICL 2900 mainframes, a few GECs, and at least one Data General machine. Altogether, Ednet supported 33 local host systems, 100 synchronous and 1521 async connections. Leeds University also did something similar, up to about 1992. They had three 11/34s with (AFAIR) 32 serial lines each (mostly Emulex devices) feeding a pair of DX11s into a big Amdahl. The 11/34s ran some homegrown software, booted from an RX02. There was also a couple of 11/73s, one of which was in a proprietary unit that incorporated a DX11-alike on two (or maybe three) Q-bus boards. That one also had some wierd CAMTEC ethernet interface in it. I've got one of the 11/34s, and one of the 11/73s; one of my friends has one of the DX11s. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Mar 15 18:59:42 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Microvax 3100 questions Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000315164939.01c7ea60@mcmanis.com> I've adopted a couple of MV3100/M76's in my quest for different VAX hardware :-) Having been using Q-bus VAXen for some time these have some mysteries that I would like to explore. First boot sequence, I know there is a list of boot errors somewhere, I remember reading it but it isn't in any of my VAX book marks. I get these two: ? C 0080 0000.4001 ? 6 80A1 0000.4001 The next mystery is the SCSI connector on the back. It isn't SCSI-2, what is it? I also got an expansion box (big fat SCSI I connector so no connection there) with an TZ30 in it, can I move that into the M3100 for now? Is that a supported config? --Chuck From paulrsm at ameritech.net Wed Mar 15 18:42:58 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: HP Apollo/9000s Message-ID: <20000316010308.FXAU4547.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Try http://www.zepa.net/apollo/Apollo-FAQ.html ---------- > From: Peter Pachla > To: Classic Computer > Subject: HP Apollo/9000s > Date: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 06:04 PM > > Hi Does anyone know of a FAQ or other document which describes the HP Apollo > (700 series?) and/or the HP-9000 series of PA-RISC machines (9000/7xx?). From oliv555 at arrl.net Wed Mar 15 19:57:15 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Microvax 3100 questions References: <4.2.0.58.20000315164939.01c7ea60@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <38D03F7B.1E5F4CEC@arrl.net> Heres a link to the m76 owners guide which should provide answers to those error codes http://www.whiteice.com/~williamwebb/intro/DOC-I.HTML Took me a while to find that SCSI cable. Its a BC56H with SCSI-I on one end and that oddball DEC connector on the other. Nick Chuck McManis wrote: > I've adopted a couple of MV3100/M76's in my quest for different VAX > hardware :-) From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Mar 15 20:27:43 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: what is a commodore B128 ? In-Reply-To: from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at "Mar 15, 0 06:48:34 pm" Message-ID: <200003160227.SAA06952@oa.ptloma.edu> ::saw one when doing my thrift store runs. opened but still in box. looks like ::it might be a refurb unit. looks like just a bigger 64. Very, very different. A failed attempt by Commodore to recapture the business marke. http://www.retrobits.com/ckb/secret/b128.html -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- TRUE HEADLINE: Teacher Strikes Idle Kids ----------------------------------- From Technoid at cheta.net Wed Mar 15 20:23:52 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Mutant01 IP = 205.138.39.180 In-Reply-To: <20000315160247.A14726@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <200003160245.VAA14863@lexington.ioa.net> >Anyway last time I put a non-TCP/IP-aware PDP-11 compatible system on the >net I just used a Linux box with a version of telnetd hacked to use serial >ports instead of PTYs, it's cheating but it was very fast and at least it >spoke "modern" TCP/IP. That is how I have been browsing the web from the Dasher 214 terminal upstairs is by Telneting into my warp or linux boxand running Lynx from there. There is also a cool Sun box on the internet you can telnet to and have a full shell account. That is useful as hell and eliminates the linux or warp 'lynx proxy' job from my intranet. You can even run stuff like slurp and they don't mind as long as you don't leave such processes running while you are not logged on. It just Feels a little closer to running the client locally ;-) As for 'modern' tcp/ip, I am running into troubles with DNS and Sendmail. I can Ping a hostname on my intranet via :etc:hosts but Nslookup says 'host unknown'. Someone said it had to do with the IQUERY setting in DNS. Do I really have to run my own DNS for sendmail and such to work when the Data General can already ping, telnet, and ftp by hostname through the router? BTW, the version of Sendmail I am working with is the one provided in Data General TCP/IP v1.40 and it's version is v1.00. Yea. I am looking for a C compiler and libraries.... Are you guys just cracking on me by keeping my former IP address as the topic of this thread or what? I do intend to create a link but have not gotten around to it. As it is, that address has a lot of press on this system even if it isn't valid anymore. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Mar 15 21:29:44 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Mutant01 IP = 205.138.39.180 In-Reply-To: <200003160245.VAA14863@lexington.ioa.net> from "Technoid@cheta.net" at "Mar 15, 0 09:23:52 pm" Message-ID: <200003160329.TAA11778@oa.ptloma.edu> ::That is how I have been browsing the web from the Dasher 214 terminal ::upstairs is by Telneting into my warp or linux boxand running Lynx from ::there. There is also a cool Sun box on the internet you can telnet to and ::have a full shell account. That is useful as hell and eliminates the ::linux or warp 'lynx proxy' job from my intranet. You can even run stuff ::like slurp and they don't mind as long as you don't leave such processes ::running while you are not logged on. It just Feels a little closer to ::running the client locally ;-) Where is this shell system? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- I'm in Pittsburgh. Why am I here? -- Harold Urey, Nobel laureate ----------- From Technoid at cheta.net Wed Mar 15 22:23:42 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Shell System In-Reply-To: <200003160329.TAA11778@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <200003160423.XAA15809@lexington.ioa.net> Telnet to NETHER.NET. I can't believe I omitted it from my message. Geez. You will go through some tutorial stuff for newbies then create an account. You can then log in as yourself and get a shell of your choice. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Mar 15 22:44:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Apollo 735 is ALIVE In-Reply-To: <38D008F9.866ABE75@cornell.edu> References: <200003150627.WAA19779@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >please see my replies below: Thanks, I will be playing for hours. ;) I just finished my first pass through running each of the four systems. Apollo 735 80 MB ram, 203H processor, fails to find file HP-UX Mentor Graphics series 700 / 720 32 MB ram, gets stuck when trying to boot (bad drive?) Mentor Graphics 715t/50 56 MB ram, boots into hp-ux, then immediately gripes about something missing, gives a return code of 256 and dumps memory to the hard drive (will repeat endlessly too). HP 400t Aaaack, this poor old baby almost seems to boot, but the A1416A graphics board isn't syncing with my HP 1097C monitor (anybody know the dip switch settings for 72 hz?) or will it just not work with a 1097C? BTW I am not really asking for help yet, just making conversation prior to reading those two FAQs recently posted to the list. Before putting them away on a shelf for a bit I will run through them all once more and take notes of the specific responses etc. They look like fun toys, but I know I will only keep one or two, so if anybody yearns for one email me and beat the rush to eBay. From retro at retrobits.com Wed Mar 15 22:49:04 2000 From: retro at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Launch of www.retrobits.com Message-ID: <38D067C0.1EAFB005@retrobits.com> Hi everybody, Just wanted to let you know that the retrocomputing web site I've been working on, http://www.retrobits.com went live, as scheduled, yesterday evening! Thanks to those of you who helped out with the collecting survey. And for those who haven't filled it out but are still interested in doing so, there is still time. There was so much material, I broke the article into three parts to do it justice. Parts II and III are yet to be written, and if any new points emerge on Part I, I'll update that section also. The site's premiere contents include: - Vintage Computer Collecting, Part I - An Interview with Cameron Kaiser - Book Review: "Apple - The Inside Story of Intrigue, Egomania, and Business Blunders" and of course, Cameron's world-famous Commodore and Tomy web sites! Please visit the site and let me know what you think. And bear in mind, it's my goal to make the site increasingly interactive over time. I want nothing more than to make this a useful, community-driven retrocomputing resource. If you've got ideas for information, articles, and other resources you'd like to see, please pass them along. And if you've got any questions or concerns, please don't hesitate to contact me. Thanks, Earl Evans retro@retrobits.com From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed Mar 15 23:35:36 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Apollo 735 is ALIVE In-Reply-To: References: <38D008F9.866ABE75@cornell.edu> <200003150627.WAA19779@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000316003536.00e6f5e0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 08:44 PM 03/15/2000 -0800, you wrote: >I just finished my first pass through running each of the four systems. > >Apollo 735 >80 MB ram, 203H processor, fails to find file HP-UX This sounds like a nice system to set up and put to good use. >Mentor Graphics series 700 / 720 >32 MB ram, gets stuck when trying to boot (bad drive?) >Mentor Graphics 715t/50 >56 MB ram, boots into hp-ux, then immediately gripes about something >missing, gives a return code of 256 and dumps memory to the hard drive >(will repeat endlessly too). Oh, yes, Mentor Graphics did these with the early hp 700's; better to reinstall the OS. I had the boot- hpux - panic - shutdown - reboot problem too... this can happen in a system that was networked, w/o enough local space for a kernel core dump and which finds itself suddenly off the network. > >HP 400t >Aaaack, this poor old baby almost seems to boot, but the A1416A graphics >board isn't syncing with my HP 1097C monitor (anybody know the dip switch >settings for 72 hz?) or will it just not work with a 1097C? Now, this is an entirely different beast. This is probably a 68040-based machine. Nice, but slower. Some of these even had a GPIB interface, as HP was still transitioning from high speed GPIB storage to SCSI. Don't wipe out any libraries off such a machine! As for the monitor, 1097's are for later, 700-series machines. Whatever card you have in the 400t is probably 60Hz. Look at the following; there may be some info. http://fatmac.ee.cornell.edu/hp300/ Carlos. From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Mar 16 00:06:34 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: HP 3000/37 Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D60C7C16@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Steve Robertson > > So if you really want a printer, you might want to think about a > serial printer plugged into one of the ATP ports. I used to run a > 2563A that way in the mid-1980s; 9600 bps did OK at keeping up with > a 300 LPM printer that was used to print COBOL listings. > I hooked up a serial thinkjet to one of the ports but didn't get the configuration just right. Originally, I tried to configure the serial port as an "LP" device but, the system balked. It said that I couldn't mix device types on the same ATP controller. In other words: If I have a TERM attached, I couldn't have a LP attached at the same time. So, I set up the printer up as a terminal (don't recall type and sub-type) and it sorta worked. I think some of the control sequences are not quite right. I'll have to tinker with it until I get the right combo. Is it possible to set it up this way and still have the print jobs spooled? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000316/4e238c7b/attachment.html From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Mar 16 00:51:16 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Mar 15, 2000 06:51:35 PM Message-ID: <200003160651.XAA15705@calico.litterbox.com> > > The other thing I would like to do is hook it up to my main computer > > (prolly as a serial terminal) and then get on the net. I aim to recreate > > the authentic B1FF experience. :) The manual leads me to believe the > > serial port on a C-64 isn't compatible w/ RS-232, however. :( > > There's a second 'serial port' hidden on some of the pins of the user > port. This one is also at TTL levels, but at least it's a conventional > asynchronous one. Add a level shifter (a couple of chips) and you have an > RS232 port. > > It's not a particularly good one, from what I remember, and it tends to > drop characters. But it may let you use the machine as a terminal. > I remember now that the *modem* port (as opposed to the DIN periperhal port) is the one that you can get an RS232 adapter for. I believe CMD computers is STILL selling one you plug into the cartrige port that goes much faster. As to the modem port dropping characters, I used to run mine at 1200 baud while using terminal software (vt100 emulation, even) without too many problems. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl Thu Mar 16 00:35:25 2000 From: macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl (Maciej S Szymanski) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: VAXStation and TCP/IP Message-ID: <38D080AD.9022BB8E@pzl-okecie.com.pl> For dome timre I'm trying to connecyt my VAXStation 3100 to PC runing Linux via TCP/IP and thin wire ethernet. I got TCP/IP services (origanal Digital's tcp/ip for OpenVMS 7.2) running and passing all internal test. However I can't get connection. I suppose the problem is in network interface. Interface passes boot time test and i can get it's hardware addres, so it is OK I hope. The swith on the back of unit is set properly - the green LED is lit on side of BNC connector. Using '$ SHOW DEV' command I can see one network interface 'ESA0:' which is online and labelaed as 'template devece' (whatever it means...). After starting up TCP/IP I get two other interfaces 'ESA3:' and 'ESA5:' owned by processes related to TCP/IP services. Does anybody know what I've to do to get my network up ? Maciek From macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl Thu Mar 16 00:36:53 2000 From: macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl (Maciej S Szymanski) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete Message-ID: <38D08105.3A9D9653@pzl-okecie.com.pl> Hi Another question. I'm trying to put back in service PDP-11/05 used to controll aircraft structural test sytem. I's equiped with DECcassete drive (it looks like normal audio cassete). Is there any replacement for them ? I mean using good audio casset or so. MAciek From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Mar 16 01:23:16 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: HP 3000/37 In-Reply-To: Steve Robertson's message of "Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:06:34 -0500" References: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D60C7C16@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <200003160723.XAA25997@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Steve Robertson wrote: > I hooked up a serial thinkjet to one of the ports but didn't get the > configuration just right. Originally, I tried to configure the serial port > as an "LP" device but, the system balked. It said that I couldn't mix device > types on the same ATP controller. In other words: If I have a TERM attached, > I couldn't have a LP attached at the same time. Right. Device classes have access types, and you can't put device classes with different access types on the same device. > So, I set up the printer up as a terminal (don't recall type and sub-type) > and it sorta worked. I think some of the control sequences are not quite > right. I'll have to tinker with it until I get the right combo. Is it > possible to set it up this way and still have the print jobs spooled? Yes. You want to set the logical device up like something like this: TYPE? 32 SUBTYPE? 14 for direct connect, 15 for modem connect ENTER [TERM TYPE#], [DESCRIPTOR FILENAME]? 18 or maybe 20, not sure SPEED IN CHARACTERS PER SECOND? depends, use bps/10 RECORD WIDTH? (chars per line)/2 OUTPUT DEVICE? 0 ACCEPT JOB/SESSION? no ACCEPT DATA? no INTERACTIVE? no DUPLICATIVE? no INITIALLY SPOOLED? can be yes, can be no INPUT OR OUTPUT? out DRIVER NAME? HIOASLP0 DEVICE CLASSES? probably LP Regarding "initially spooled": if you say yes, I'd set a high OUTFENCE (probably OUTFENCE 13) in SYSSTART.PUB.SYS so that the spooler won't try to start printing spooled output right away on boot (which might lose output if the printer is switched off or disconnected). The alternative is to make the device not initially spooled and start spooling manually with a STARTSPOOL command. I think I like initially spooled with high outfence better. -Frank McConnell From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Mar 16 01:52:49 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete In-Reply-To: <38D08105.3A9D9653@pzl-okecie.com.pl>; from macieks@pzl-okecie.com.pl on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 07:36:53AM +0100 References: <38D08105.3A9D9653@pzl-okecie.com.pl> Message-ID: <20000316025249.A16704@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 07:36:53AM +0100, Maciej S Szymanski wrote: > I'm trying to put back in service PDP-11/05 used to controll aircraft > structural test sytem. I's equiped with DECcassete drive (it looks like > normal audio cassete). > Is there any replacement for them ? I mean using good audio casset or > so. Replacement for which, the media, or the whole drive? DEC claimed that you couldn't use regular audio cassettes with the TU60 because they couldn't handle the high tension used by the drive. Sounds like it could be hype but you never know. I mean, what's the point of building a peripheral that uses regular audio cassettes, except that it *doesn't* use regular audio cassettes? Worst of both worlds. As for drives, I don't know of any aftermarket TU60 hardware clone. However, if you're willing to replace the entire system with a software emulator, Ersatz-11 includes TU60 emulation, using tape image files for media (the "full" version of E11 can also use SCSI tapes as the physical medium for the TU60 but that seems like overkill, I mean how many GB of data do you really need to store on one emulated ~90 KB cassette? :-) Information is on www.dbit.com, and the command you use to create a TU60 drive is "MOUNT CT0: file.tap". John Wilson D Bit From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Mar 16 05:40:44 2000 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC Message-ID: <802568A4.00400C09.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Not sure what happened last time I sent this. I'll try again... > The "serial" bus is actually a bastardised implementation of the IEEE-488 > bus, which CBM had used on the PET series. Data is transferred serially (at > 300 baud) instead of in parallel, other than that I believe it's pretty much > IEEE. Are you _sure_ it's 300 baud? I thought it was 2400. We had a 20K byte load module that took about a minute to load - this corresponds to a little over 300 _bytes_ per second. Same load module from tape took SEVEN minutes! No wonder speed loaders and things were popular! (Typical disk speed loader used 2 of the wires in the serial bus for data, doubling the throughput. May have used higher baud rate as well - I never had problems with 4800 baud in software on a PET.) Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Mar 16 06:54:52 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete References: <38D08105.3A9D9653@pzl-okecie.com.pl> Message-ID: <002501bf8f46$d29499e0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I've got a Tulip SCSI tapestreamer that uses "Certified Data Cassettes and those were identical to the type I got once with a Boroughs B80 system They've got a -notch-cut-out- on their back just off the middle. Type I've got here = Verbatim ST-600 or Maxxell CS-600 They can still be found, albeit with a little trouble Sipke de Wal snip > I'm trying to put back in service PDP-11/05 used to controll aircraft > structural test sytem. I's equiped with DECcassete drive (it looks like > normal audio cassete). > Is there any replacement for them ? I mean using good audio casset or > so. snip From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 16 07:55:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete In-Reply-To: <20000316025249.A16704@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > > structural test sytem. I's equiped with DECcassete drive (it looks like > > normal audio cassete). > > Is there any replacement for them ? I mean using good audio casset or > > so. > > Replacement for which, the media, or the whole drive? > > DEC claimed that you couldn't use regular audio cassettes with the TU60 > because they couldn't handle the high tension used by the drive. Sounds like > it could be hype but you never know. I mean, what's the point of building a > peripheral that uses regular audio cassettes, except that it *doesn't* use > regular audio cassettes? Worst of both worlds. First the recording is not audio it's Phase encoded saturation. Second the media is very different from audion and used a coated binder. Audio tape may work but not nearly as well. The file system if used is block structured. > As for drives, I don't know of any aftermarket TU60 hardware clone. However, > if you're willing to replace the entire system with a software emulator, > Ersatz-11 includes TU60 emulation, using tape image files for media (the "full" > version of E11 can also use SCSI tapes as the physical medium for the TU60 > but that seems like overkill, I mean how many GB of data do you really need > to store on one emulated ~90 KB cassette? :-) Information is on www.dbit.com, > and the command you use to create a TU60 drive is "MOUNT CT0: file.tap". Tu58s are findable and would make a suitable substitute at 256k a cart. But the OS support may be TU60 specific. Allison From sms at antinode.org Thu Mar 16 08:58:18 2000 From: sms at antinode.org (sms@antinode.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: VAXStation and TCP/IP Message-ID: <00031608581825@antinode.org> Mr. Szymanski: > Does anybody know what I've to do to get my network up ? Did you do "@ SYS$MANAGER:TCPIP$CONFIG.COM"? What are everyone's IP addresses? What failed? How? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda (+1) 651-699-9818 (voice, home) 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 763-781-0308 (voice, work) Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 (+1) 763-781-0309 (facsimile, work) sms@antinode.org sms@provis.com (work) From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Mar 16 10:14:54 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: HP Apollo/9000s In-Reply-To: <017f01bf8ed2$f4c830e0$3eeb93c3@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000316111454.4527071a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Pete, I don't know of one but if you find one let me know. I have a 715t sitting around that I need to do something with. Joe At 11:04 PM 3/15/00 -0000, you wrote: >Hi Does anyone know of a FAQ or other document which describes the HP Apollo >(700 series?) and/or the HP-9000 series of PA-RISC machines (9000/7xx?). > >I've had a look around but can't find anything, even on the HP site (just >details of the latest machines). > > > TTFN - Pete. > >-- >Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. >Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > >peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk >-- > > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Mar 16 09:16:54 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: C-64 "IEC" bus (was Re: Brand new used C-64 PC) Message-ID: <20000316151654.7221.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > The "serial" bus is actually a bastardised implementation of the IEEE-488 > > bus, which CBM had used on the PET series. Caused, IIRC, by Tramiel who demanded of the engineers that the next computer not use the same connectors because of a supplier shortage at some point in the PET's past (dunno if it was the edge-connector end or the IEEE-488 end that was hard to come by, but that's the story that's been circulating for twenty years). > > Data is transferred serially (at 300 baud) instead of in parallel, other > > than that I believe it's pretty much IEEE. It is, effectively, the same character protocol, but the serial bus is lacking in some of the handshaking lines that characterized the true IEEE-488. There's a great book on the PET and its implementation of the IEEE-488 bus by Osborne Press. If you ever see a copy of it at a bookstore or flea market and have even considered programming for the PET, grab it. > Are you _sure_ it's 300 baud? I thought it was 2400. We had a 20K byte load > module that took about a minute to load - this corresponds to a little over > 300 _bytes_ per second. Same load module from tape took SEVEN minutes! No > wonder speed loaders and things were popular! (Typical disk speed loader > used 2 of the wires in the serial bus for data, doubling the throughput. May > have used higher baud rate as well It was because of this slowness that at one company, Software Productions, we compressed the menu and splash screens for our C-64 version of "Micro Mother Goose" (sold under the Reader's Digest label). It was a simple RLE compression, but it cut the pictures down about 70% (lots of black space around the menu items) and decreased the load times significantly even accounting for the extra code to decompress the images. We had plenty of RAM and loads of disk space, it was squished purely to speed up the load. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Mar 16 09:22:09 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete Message-ID: <20000316152209.9704.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 07:36:53AM +0100, Maciej S Szymanski wrote: > > I'm trying to put back in service PDP-11/05 used to controll aircraft > > structural test sytem. I's equiped with DECcassete drive (it looks like > > normal audio cassete). > > Is there any replacement for them ? I mean using good audio casset or > > so. > > Replacement for which, the media, or the whole drive? > > DEC claimed that you couldn't use regular audio cassettes with the TU60 > because they couldn't handle the high tension used by the drive. Sounds like > it could be hype but you never know. I mean, what's the point of building a > peripheral that uses regular audio cassettes, except that it *doesn't* use > regular audio cassettes? Worst of both worlds. AFAIK, it is _not_ a regular cassette but the drive mechanism is based on regular cassette transport hardware. The media is coated for low friction to extend media life and reduce head wear, among other things. One minor feature of the cassettes themselves is a plastic flippy write-protect tab. Not essential but a nice touch. As has already been pointed out, the cassettes have a notch in the middle of the top and there's a finger or a block or something at the corresponding location on the drive preventing you from mounting an audio tape. I used to use tapes by the crate on my PET way back when. A regular speed tape drive mixed with cheap Rat-Shack tapes was a dangerous combination. I wouldn't want to use consumer grade tapes with a high-performance mechanism. It makes me think of the nickname of the TS-11 - the "Tape Stretcher 11", maybe a "Tape Annihilator 60"? :-) -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From flo at rdel.co.uk Thu Mar 16 09:23:45 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:12 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z Message-ID: <38D0FC81.CCDD2DF6@rdel.co.uk> I've just obtained an RML 480Z. This machine was commonly in use in schools in the UK during the 80s, as an alternative to BBCs or Spectrums under a government initiative to keep our computer industry alive. Unfortunately, there are no cables or documentation with it. It has a large array of DIN sockets at the back for cassette, two monitor connections, and two serial ports. Does anyone have the pinouts for these sockets? I'll email Research Machines as well to see if I can obtain any documentation, but the only reference to 480Z on their web site is on the Y2K page, where it says that they don't have a real-time clock. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Mar 16 10:21:29 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete In-Reply-To: <38D08105.3A9D9653@pzl-okecie.com.pl> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000316082129.009e86b0@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:36 AM 3/16/00 +0100, you wrote: >Hi > >Another question. >I'm trying to put back in service PDP-11/05 used to controll aircraft >structural test sytem. I's equiped with DECcassete drive (it looks like >normal audio cassete). >Is there any replacement for them ? I mean using good audio casset or >so. Actually... I've got a couple of cases of this media rattling around the 'Garage' (along with my TU-60's). If anyone needs a couple for restoration purposes let me know. Probably for the cost of shipping unless you really need more than a couple. Which reminds me... what is the interface board for a TU-60? And anyone got a spare??? -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Mar 16 10:50:43 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete Message-ID: <20000316165043.411.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> --- James Willing wrote: > Actually... I've got a couple of cases of this media rattling around the > 'Garage' (along with my TU-60's). If anyone needs a couple for restoration > purposes let me know. Probably for the cost of shipping unless you really > need more than a couple. I'm interested in a couple. I have the same arrangement - 11/05 w/TU-60 and one whole tape! > Which reminds me... what is the interface board for a TU-60? And anyone > got a spare??? I'd have to check. I know I have the one Unibus controller. The next time I get to my secondary storage location (friend's basement ;-), I'll check if there's a second card in my Unibus pile. I've always been curious how a TU-60 performs on a PDP-8. Anyone ever use one? -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Mar 16 11:06:35 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000316082129.009e86b0@agora.rdrop.com>; from jimw@agora.rdrop.com on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 08:21:29AM -0800 References: <38D08105.3A9D9653@pzl-okecie.com.pl> <3.0.3.32.20000316082129.009e86b0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <20000316120635.A18205@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 08:21:29AM -0800, James Willing wrote: > Actually... I've got a couple of cases of this media rattling around the > 'Garage' (along with my TU-60's). If anyone needs a couple for restoration > purposes let me know. Probably for the cost of shipping unless you really > need more than a couple. I'd like to buy one or two please -- my TU60 has languished unrestored for way too long, and I sure don't want to overwrite any tapes that have anything on them. > Which reminds me... what is the interface board for a TU-60? And anyone > got a spare??? TA11, M7892. Or TA8E for Omnibus (dunno the M number). Sorry, don't have a spare. FWIW I do have a couple of spare tape mechanisms (thanks Allison!), i.e. the bare transports that fit into the TU60, which I'd be happy to give away to anyone who's fixing their TU60 before I get to mine. The M7892 is the kind of thing Bell Atlantic/CTS (or is it /ESS ?) would have had a few years ago, for super high prices though... I don't know what ever became of them, I sure hope we didn't all miss a really amazing auction or anything. FWIW the TA11 is a pretty simple interface, all the brains are in the drive, so I don't think building a fresh one (for any computer) would be such a hard project. IIRC it's parallel, not high-speed serial like the RX02, so it might even be doable through an LPT port hack of some kind. John Wilson D Bit From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Mar 16 11:26:21 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: HP Apollo/9000s In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000316111454.4527071a@mailhost.intellistar.net>; from rigdonj@intellistar.net on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 11:14:54AM -0500 References: <017f01bf8ed2$f4c830e0$3eeb93c3@proteus> <3.0.1.16.20000316111454.4527071a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000316112621.Q2727@mrbill.net> Try http://parisc.workstations.org or http://www.workstations.org (I know the workstations.org page is ugly, I'm working on it...) BIll On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 11:14:54AM -0500, Joe wrote: > Pete, > > I don't know of one but if you find one let me know. I have a 715t > sitting around that I need to do something with. > > Joe > > At 11:04 PM 3/15/00 -0000, you wrote: > >Hi Does anyone know of a FAQ or other document which describes the HP Apollo > >(700 series?) and/or the HP-9000 series of PA-RISC machines (9000/7xx?). > > > >I've had a look around but can't find anything, even on the HP site (just > >details of the latest machines). > > > > > > TTFN - Pete. > > > >-- > >Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. > >Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > > > >peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk > >-- > > > > > > -- +---------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | +-------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------+-----------------------------------------+ | Version: 3.12 GCS d- s:++ a- C++++ US++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ N++ o K+++ w--- | | O- M-- V- PS PE+ Y+ PGP t+ 5 X- R-- tv+++ b++++ DI++++ D++ G++ e++ h r++ y+ | +--------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------------------------------------------+ From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Thu Mar 16 11:31:40 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: HP Apollo/9000s References: <20000316010308.FXAU4547.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: <002201bf8f6e$723650c0$09e793c3@proteus> Hi Paul, > Try http://www.zepa.net/apollo/Apollo-FAQ.html Actually, that was the first place I looked....barely a mention of the "4xx" series and nothing at all about the "7xx" machines. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but there just doesn't seem to be much in the way of FAQs detailing the HP-9000 family in general (or HP-3000) - or am I looking in the wrong places? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Thu Mar 16 11:28:00 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: HP Apollo/9000s References: <3.0.2.32.20000315192251.00fdb8f0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <002101bf8f6e$71748760$09e793c3@proteus> Hi, > Try > > http://hpux.cae.wisc.edu/hppd/FAQ/ Thanks, I'll take a peek. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From donm at cts.com Thu Mar 16 13:35:44 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete In-Reply-To: <002501bf8f46$d29499e0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Sipke de Wal wrote: > I've got a Tulip SCSI tapestreamer that uses "Certified Data Cassettes > and those were identical to the type I got once with a Boroughs B80 system > They've got a -notch-cut-out- on their back just off the middle. > > Type I've got here = Verbatim ST-600 or Maxxell CS-600 > > They can still be found, albeit with a little trouble > > Sipke de Wal > Fact is, I have a box of ten of the Maxell tapes that are unused. If anyone is interested, contact me off list. - don From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 16 12:39:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete In-Reply-To: <38D08105.3A9D9653@pzl-okecie.com.pl> from "Maciej S Szymanski" at Mar 16, 0 07:36:53 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 817 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000316/684c4865/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 16 13:37:40 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <38D0FC81.CCDD2DF6@rdel.co.uk> from "Paul Williams" at Mar 16, 0 03:23:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3247 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000316/e0f83433/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 16 12:43:57 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete In-Reply-To: <20000316025249.A16704@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Mar 16, 0 02:52:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1004 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000316/31c1a837/attachment.ksh From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Mar 11 00:40:20 2000 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete References: Message-ID: <38C9EA54.52A9A310@bluewin.ch> Tony Duell wrote: > There's a similar cassette drive mentioned in the P850 user manual of all > places. Tony, should you be interested : I have just such a cassette drive for the P850 up for grabs. Sadly no software / drivers to go with it and it does not fit my P856.. Jos Dreesen From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Mar 16 15:22:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: HP Apollo/9000s In-Reply-To: <002201bf8f6e$723650c0$09e793c3@proteus> References: <20000316010308.FXAU4547.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: >Hi Paul, > > > Try http://www.zepa.net/apollo/Apollo-FAQ.html > >Actually, that was the first place I looked....barely a mention of the "4xx" >series and nothing at all about the "7xx" machines. > >Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but there just doesn't seem to be >much in the way of FAQs detailing the HP-9000 family in general (or >HP-3000) - or am I looking in the wrong places? Actually I was impressed it looks like a LOT of activity is going on just from chasing the 3 or 4 posts to this list with links. I found mailing lists, newsgroups, and half a dozen or more web sites. Now "some" of the links were pretty quiet, but many "looked" active. HP is doing a ONE TIME free update to older 9000 series computers (they say 9000/800, but I don't know) to current 10.20 software. This offer ends on April 30th 2000, so don't drag your feet if interested. The blurb claims they want to "welcome" people back to HP support, but I didn't see any strings. Could be they see offering this as a blanket get out of liability on any y2k issues. From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Thu Mar 16 14:32:33 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC References: <802568A4.00400C09.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <000c01bf8f91$0cc30300$5ee893c3@proteus> Hi Philip, >....Are you _sure_ it's 300 baud? I thought it was 2400.... Well, it has been a few years since I had much to do with the C64 so my memory could be faulty. I definitely remember a figure of 300 baud quoted somewhere in relation to storage though....perhaps that's the rate that the cassette system runs at? I know very little about CBMs cassette system, all my programming was related to the disc and cartridge systems. >....Same load module from tape took SEVEN minutes! No wonder >speed loaders and things were popular! No kidding. I remember when systems like "NovaLoad" came along allowing games to load from tape faster than they did from disc. And then the floodgates opened.... >....doubling the throughput. May have used higher baud rate as >well - I never had problems with 4800 baud in software on a PET. Hmm, memory is hazy now, but I think cartridges like Epyx' "FastLoad" did use a higher than normal baud rate when running in fast mode (bear in mind that it's probably 11 years since I last used my FastLoad cart). I only heard of this trick of using two lines on the serial bus to double the data transfer rate quite recently. AFAIR the serial bus already uses two data lines, one for data out of the C64 and a second for data in? Would I be right in assuming that this trick involves using both lines as inputs or outputs simultaneously? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Thu Mar 16 15:04:55 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: C-64 "IEC" bus (was Re: Brand new used C-64 PC) References: <20000316151654.7221.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000e01bf8f91$192a5da0$5ee893c3@proteus> Hi, >>>...."serial" bus is actually a bastardised implementation >>>>of the IEEE-488 bus, which CBM had used on the PET series. > > Caused, IIRC, by Tramiel who demanded of the engineers that >the next computer not use the same connectors because of a >supplier shortage.... Interesting, I always wondered why they had moved away from the IEEE bus. I'd always assumed they'd done it in an attempt to reduce costs (those IEEE cables weren't cheap) and to try and lock users into using CBM peripherals. > There's a great book on the PET and its implementation of the >IEEE-488 bus by Osborne Press. If you ever see a copy of it at >a bookstore or flea market and have even considered programming >for the PET, grab it. I *THINK* I've got that book (came with one of my PETs). I can't remember the title now ("PET IEEE Interfacing"?), but it goes into a lot of detail on how the bus works and includes several practical examples. Hang on....goes off to have a rummage....dammit, can't get at it right now. :-( > It was because of this slowness that at one company, Software >Productions, we compressed the menu and splash screens for our >C-64 version of "Micro Mother Goose" (sold under the Reader's >Digest label). It was a simple RLE compression, but it cut the >pictures down about 70%.... Yes, I did some work for a local company called "Novagen" back in '85 which was pretty similar. In this case we were putting the Atari 8-bit version of "Mercenary" onto cassette and wanted to display a logo screen while the game was loading. I wrote a very simple RLE compression program to allow us to load the screen in a reasonable amount of time....there was an awful lot of green in my logo so it compressed VERY well. :-)) That was the first time I made any money from programming. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Mar 16 16:42:23 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: Apollo 735 is ALIVE In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000316003536.00e6f5e0@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <200003162245.RAA06347@lexington.ioa.net> >56 MB ram, boots into hp-ux, then immediately gripes about something >missing, gives a return code of 256 and dumps memory to the hard drive >(will repeat endlessly too). I have never had a hand on HP-UX but when I first got my MV4000 it very much the same thing as your UX box. The fix was the run a filesystem fixer. While I was at disk stuff I ran the high-level formatter, scanned for bad sectors etc. Came right up. It tortured me for like two weeks before I figured out it needed this and how to run the checker when I could not boot the machine. There was a mechanism to execute a single file from the filesystem without mounting it so as not to lock the disk against the checker. Else you could get a maintainance build of HP-UX on floppy and check it that way. Maybe Linux FSCK can handle your disk format? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Mar 16 17:12:36 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: C-64 "IEC" bus (was Re: Brand new used C-64 PC) In-Reply-To: <000e01bf8f91$192a5da0$5ee893c3@proteus> from Peter Pachla at "Mar 16, 0 09:04:55 pm" Message-ID: <200003162312.PAA07740@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Yes, I did some work for a local company called "Novagen" back in '85 which ::was pretty similar. Ha, Novagen! Did you ever hear of Novaload while you were there? That and Turbo Tape were mucho popular tape loaders. I have a Commodore-branded sound synthesiser program that has a Novagen loader. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Not sun-worshippers: Son-worshippers! -- Uhura, Star Trek "Bread & Circuses" From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Mar 16 17:17:50 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC In-Reply-To: <000c01bf8f91$0cc30300$5ee893c3@proteus> from Peter Pachla at "Mar 16, 0 08:32:33 pm" Message-ID: <200003162317.PAA08940@oa.ptloma.edu> :: >....Are you _sure_ it's 300 baud? I thought it was 2400.... :: ::Well, it has been a few years since I had much to do with the C64 so my ::memory could be faulty. I definitely remember a figure of 300 baud quoted ::somewhere in relation to storage though....perhaps that's the rate that the ::cassette system runs at? Yup yup yup. I must have missed the original message. The IEC bus is much faster than that, and of course fast serial devices like the 128 (in 128 mode) coupled with burst-capable devices like 1571s and 1581s are faster still. A quick hardware mod will let you use high speed transfers on the 64 too (with software to drive it, the Kernal doesn't know how). ::No kidding. I remember when systems like "NovaLoad" came along allowing ::games to load from tape faster than they did from disc. And then the ::floodgates opened.... So you *do* know about Novaload! (Ignore previous message.) Who wrote it? Do you remember? ::Hmm, memory is hazy now, but I think cartridges like Epyx' "FastLoad" did ::use a higher than normal baud rate when running in fast mode (bear in mind ::that it's probably 11 years since I last used my FastLoad cart). :: ::I only heard of this trick of using two lines on the serial bus to double ::the data transfer rate quite recently. AFAIR the serial bus already uses two ::data lines, one for data out of the C64 and a second for data in? :: ::Would I be right in assuming that this trick involves using both lines as ::inputs or outputs simultaneously? I don't remember the details of how it works, but yes, FastLoad steals another IEC serial bus line and uses it for an extra bit of transfer. On every load it shuffles a small ML subroutine into drive RAM and executes that so the disk drive knows how to do the transfer. It achieves ~5x increase that way, and is *highly* compatible. What I suspect it uses is the ATN line. Don't ask me how, it just rings a bell for some reason. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- If ignorance is bliss, shouldn't I be happier? ----------------------------- From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Thu Mar 16 18:16:06 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete References: Message-ID: <38D17946.83262AE2@roanoke.infi.net> You rang a bell with the comment about other units using the same standard, a TI "Silent 700 ASR" data capture terminal is sitting in my storage shed somewhere----neat panel up above the keyboard with lots of lights and switches and 2 very fancy looking cassette transports. must use those same cassettes. Craig Tony Duell wrote: > > > DEC claimed that you couldn't use regular audio cassettes with the TU60 > > because they couldn't handle the high tension used by the drive. Sounds like > > it could be hype but you never know. I mean, what's the point of building a > > peripheral that uses regular audio cassettes, except that it *doesn't* use > > regular audio cassettes? Worst of both worlds. > > Ah, but it was a 'standard' at the time. I believe ECMA34 is a standard > for recording data on such drives, but I have no idea if the TU60 > followed it. I suspect it was at least similar. > > There's a similar cassette drive mentioned in the P850 user manual of all > places. And I've seen stand-alone RS232-interfaced drives which could be > used for data entry or data capture (Facit certainly made these, as did > dozens of other manufacturers). And I have somewhere a 'Racal Digideck' > which seems to be an drive module for such tapes. > > In other words, DEC were making a peripheral that accepted tapes used by > a lot of other systems. > > -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 16 18:43:45 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete In-Reply-To: <38D17946.83262AE2@roanoke.infi.net> from "Craig Smith" at Mar 16, 2000 07:16:06 PM Message-ID: <200003170043.QAA05195@shell1.aracnet.com> > You rang a bell with the comment about other units using the same > standard, a TI "Silent 700 ASR" data capture terminal is sitting in my > storage shed somewhere----neat panel up above the keyboard with lots of > lights and switches and 2 very fancy looking cassette transports. must > use those same cassettes. > Craig Has anyone ever come up with a list of the various TI Silent 700 terminals? Some how I get the feeling a person could have a large collection of nothing but different models of them! I know I've got two different models myself, neither have any kind of storage though, that sounds like a cool version. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 16 18:51:24 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: Apollo 735 is ALIVE In-Reply-To: <200003162245.RAA06347@lexington.ioa.net> from "Technoid@cheta.net" at Mar 16, 2000 05:42:23 PM Message-ID: <200003170051.QAA06495@shell1.aracnet.com> > >56 MB ram, boots into hp-ux, then immediately gripes about something > >missing, gives a return code of 256 and dumps memory to the hard drive > >(will repeat endlessly too). If you know the magic incantations you might be able to get into single user mode. Have you tried this? It's fairly easy to do this on a Sun box, but as I recall it's a royal pain to do this on an HP. Unfortunatly I've no idea where my notes on this might have ended up. > I have never had a hand on HP-UX but when I first got my MV4000 it very > much the same thing as your UX box. The fix was the run a filesystem > fixer. While I was at disk stuff I ran the high-level formatter, scanned > for bad sectors etc. Came right up. It tortured me for like two weeks > before I figured out it needed this and how to run the checker when I > could not boot the machine. There was a mechanism to execute a single > file from the filesystem without mounting it so as not to lock the disk > against the checker. > > Else you could get a maintainance build of HP-UX on floppy and check it > that way. Maybe Linux FSCK can handle your disk format? GOOD GRIEF NO!!! I would guess the Linux 'fsck' would refuse to do anything, but if it doesn't all it could do is make things worse! *DO NOT* run versions of 'fsck' against filesystems other than what they're intended to be run against!!! Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 16 18:47:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete In-Reply-To: <200003170043.QAA05195@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Mar 16, 0 04:43:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1644 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000317/b1cc2809/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Mar 16 19:39:44 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: Article has given me great finds Message-ID: <010201bf8fb1$acaf0d80$43721fd1@default> After since the newspaper article about my collecting was printed in the paper I have been getting calls and emails everyday with someone wanting to give me something. Here's a short list of some of the items I have picked up: 1. Lisa II complete and working with manuals and tons of software. 2. complete Mac IIcx in the box with Apple monitor also in it's box. 3. Prototype scsi tape unit for Apple done by 3M with tapes loaded software. The guy wrote the firmware for these drives that gave a box full of Apple stuff. 4. Complete Mac Plus system 5. Lots of books and manuals. One really nice one is a special Promotional Edition of Inside Macintosh dated 15 March 1985. The pages are made of thin tissue paper and were given to programmers at this guy's shop which purchased a large number of Lisa from Apple early. 6. Several IBM PS/2 systems not yet 10 years old. 7. Several printers, ink jets and dot's. I still have about 6 more systems and other items to pick up from various people that have called. Now if someone would just give me another warehouse to store this stuff in. Keep computing John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000316/d451e215/attachment.html From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Mar 16 19:51:40 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: HP Apollo/9000s In-Reply-To: References: <002201bf8f6e$723650c0$09e793c3@proteus> <20000316010308.FXAU4547.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: <4.1.20000316204513.00a70250@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:22 PM 3/16/00 -0800, Mike Ford said something like: >>Hi Paul, >> >> > Try http://www.zepa.net/apollo/Apollo-FAQ.html >> >>Actually, that was the first place I looked....barely a mention of the "4xx" >>series and nothing at all about the "7xx" machines. >> >>Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but there just doesn't seem to be >>much in the way of FAQs detailing the HP-9000 family in general (or >>HP-3000) - or am I looking in the wrong places? > >Actually I was impressed it looks like a LOT of activity is going on just >from chasing the 3 or 4 posts to this list with links. I found mailing >lists, newsgroups, and half a dozen or more web sites. Now "some" of the >links were pretty quiet, but many "looked" active. > >HP is doing a ONE TIME free update to older 9000 series computers (they say >9000/800, but I don't know) to current 10.20 software. This offer ends on >April 30th 2000, so don't drag your feet if interested. The blurb claims >they want to "welcome" people back to HP support, but I didn't see any >strings. Could be they see offering this as a blanket get out of liability >on any y2k issues. > What was the highest HP-UX version that the 300-series could handle? Was it around 7.0 or 8.0? I've got a 9000/375 with 7.(mumble) and am curious. The 9000/332's at my old job seem to handle the Y2K thing okay according to my wife who still works with them there. Their application is a fixed machine control/data crunching job running under Workstation Pascal 3.2 (not HP-UX) so dates are somewhat a non-issue anyway. BTW, anybody got a WS Pascal 3.2 distribution and manuals available? Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Mar 16 20:26:44 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete Message-ID: <200003170226.VAA21683@world.std.com> >Which reminds me... what is the interface board for a TU-60? And anyone >got a spare??? TA11 Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu Mar 16 20:48:15 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: HP Apollo/9000s In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000316204513.00a70250@206.231.8.2> References: <002201bf8f6e$723650c0$09e793c3@proteus> <20000316010308.FXAU4547.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000316214815.00e72294@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Hi Chris; HPUX 9.1, released in 1995, replaced 9.03 and was the last release to support the 68K-based architecture in the 300 and 400 series. As far as I know, HP did not release Y2K patches for 9.1 . However, the 300 and 400 series are supported under netBSD. Best regards, Carlos. At 08:51 PM 03/16/2000 -0500, you wrote: >What was the highest HP-UX version that the 300-series could handle? Was it >around 7.0 or 8.0? I've got a 9000/375 with 7.(mumble) and am curious. > >The 9000/332's at my old job seem to handle the Y2K thing okay according to >my wife who still works with them there. Their application is a fixed >machine control/data crunching job running under Workstation Pascal 3.2 >(not HP-UX) so dates are somewhat a non-issue anyway. > >BTW, anybody got a WS Pascal 3.2 distribution and manuals available? > >Regards, Chris From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu Mar 16 20:50:49 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: HP Apollo/9000s Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000316215049.00e76770@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> I wrote:; >HPUX 9.1, released in 1995, replaced 9.03 and was the last release >to support the 68K-based architecture in the 300 and 400 series. I should have written: HPUX 9.10 (official name ;-) ) Best regards, Carlos. At 08:51 PM 03/16/2000 -0500, you wrote: >What was the highest HP-UX version that the 300-series could handle? Was it >around 7.0 or 8.0? I've got a 9000/375 with 7.(mumble) and am curious. > >The 9000/332's at my old job seem to handle the Y2K thing okay according to >my wife who still works with them there. Their application is a fixed >machine control/data crunching job running under Workstation Pascal 3.2 >(not HP-UX) so dates are somewhat a non-issue anyway. > >BTW, anybody got a WS Pascal 3.2 distribution and manuals available? > >Regards, Chris From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 16 21:13:44 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete Message-ID: <200003170313.WAA20517@world.std.com> > DEC claimed that you couldn't use regular audio cassettes with the TU6 <> > because they couldn't handle the high tension used by the drive. Sound <> > it could be hype but you never know. I mean, what's the point of build <> > peripheral that uses regular audio cassettes, except that it *doesn't* <> > regular audio cassettes? Worst of both worlds. True, while they would work for a while eventually they stretch though some audio tapes were thicker. Also most audiotapes had huge dropout zones where the recorded level would drop significantly. Also the saturation recording was nothing like audio recording in how the head was driven or the read back signal. The closest thing we have now to the recording technique used is floppies. Allison From sring at uslink.net Thu Mar 16 21:48:19 2000 From: sring at uslink.net (Stephanie Ring) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: Floppy rehab Message-ID: <006701bf8fc3$a6d16a40$c257ddcc@uslink.net> From: "Stephanie Ring" sring@uslink.net I would like to know what material can be substituted for the black slide on 3.5 floppies when these are missing, on the right hand top corner. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Mar 16 22:27:29 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 06:39:49PM +0000 References: <38D08105.3A9D9653@pzl-okecie.com.pl> Message-ID: <20000316232729.A20680@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Mar 16, 2000 at 06:39:49PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > AFAIK, it may _look_ like a normal compact cassette, but it certainly > isn't one. The tape is different for one thing (I believe it's a much > higher coercivity than normal audio tape). And the cassette shell has an > extra notch on the back edge, slightly off-centre. Some drives use this > to detect which side of the tape is in use, some use it to reject normal > audio tapes. The TU60 doesn't use the notch though, does it? I'm pretty sure I've popped regular audio cassettes in there and they fit fine. Could be a false memory though... John Wilson D Bit From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Mar 16 22:56:01 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: Floppy rehab In-Reply-To: <006701bf8fc3$a6d16a40$c257ddcc@uslink.net> Message-ID: <200003170456.XAA26026@lexington.ioa.net> Superglue a plastic jumper over the hole to allow writes if it is the write protect your are talking about. They fit there rather nicely. I have done this to make use of OEM distribution disks which came sans switch. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Mar 16 22:58:57 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: Floppy rehab In-Reply-To: <006701bf8fc3$a6d16a40$c257ddcc@uslink.net> Message-ID: <200003170458.XAA26338@lexington.ioa.net> The jumper is a more permanant solution for a write-protect but a length of tape wrapped over the outside of the disk over the write protect hole is fine too. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From donm at cts.com Thu Mar 16 23:22:02 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: Floppy rehab In-Reply-To: <006701bf8fc3$a6d16a40$c257ddcc@uslink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Stephanie Ring wrote: > > From: "Stephanie Ring" > sring@uslink.net > > > I would like to know what material can > be substituted for the black slide on > 3.5 floppies when these are missing, > on the right hand top corner. A Berg jumper seems about the right size, and could be held in with tape or glue. Of course, it wouldn't slide any more. - don From macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl Thu Mar 16 23:35:00 2000 From: macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl (Maciej S Szymanski) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete References: <38D08105.3A9D9653@pzl-okecie.com.pl> <002501bf8f46$d29499e0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <38D1C404.93C8A174@pzl-okecie.com.pl> Sipke de Wal wrote: > > I've got a Tulip SCSI tapestreamer that uses "Certified Data Cassettes > and those were identical to the type I got once with a Boroughs B80 system > They've got a -notch-cut-out- on their back just off the middle. > > Type I've got here = Verbatim ST-600 or Maxxell CS-600 > > They can still be found, albeit with a little trouble Thtat may be it. I think I've seen something like this, so must thry to get it. I've also to chech all the stuff that comes with system, maybe there are some spare casstes. Any way thank yof for info. Maciek From whdawson at mlynk.com Fri Mar 17 00:09:29 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11's DECcasete In-Reply-To: <20000316152209.9704.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000d01bf8fd7$5ab4c440$86e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> AFAIK, it is _not_ a regular cassette but the drive mechanism is based on -> regular cassette transport hardware. The media is coated for -> low friction -> to extend media life and reduce head wear, among other things. One minor -> feature of the cassettes themselves is a plastic flippy -> write-protect tab. -> Not essential but a nice touch. -> -> As has already been pointed out, the cassettes have a notch in the middle -> of the top and there's a finger or a block or something at the -> corresponding -> location on the drive preventing you from mounting an audio tape. Well, now I know what all these "computer grade" cassettes I've had laying around for almost 20 years went to. Being somewhat of a packrat by nature, when they were offered to me by someone who "upgraded" to a Microdata Reality system, I took them, peeled off the original labels, put generic Radio Shack cassette labels on them, and just overwrote whatever was on some of them. I'd totally forgotten that they were DEC. So now I don't have a clue what is on the ones that I didn't reuse since I replaced the labels shortly after I got them d8^( I do know which ones I didn't reuse. The new labels aren't written on. I always thought the little write protect tab was a nice feature. If Maciej S Szymanski will contact me off list, I'm sure we can work something out, as I don't have much use for the ones I didn't use for SWTPC program storage. I imagine DEC stuff must still be on them. Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 17 00:45:28 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: Floppy rehab Message-ID: <000a01bf8fdc$6273da40$39483cd1@winbook> Since floppy drives no longer use optical sensors, using a mechanical feeler instead, you may find that the write-lock tabs that you once used on 5-1/4" drives work fine, so long as you apply them so they're tight. That way the feeler will encounter resistance when it tries to feel the hole. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Stephanie Ring To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, March 16, 2000 9:00 PM Subject: Floppy rehab > >From: "Stephanie Ring" >sring@uslink.net > > >I would like to know what material can >be substituted for the black slide on >3.5 floppies when these are missing, >on the right hand top corner. > > > From flo at rdel.co.uk Fri Mar 17 02:18:18 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: Message-ID: <38D1EA4A.5326DDD6@rdel.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > > You're in luck!. I have the 'Information File' for the 480Z (and a > similar manual for the 380Z) alongside me. This is essentially a > technical reference manual and includes schematics, etc... > > Anyway, as to the pinouts of the 480Z... > > Firstly what all the connectors are, from the left : Fantastic! Thanks, Tony. My first priority is to hook it up to a monitor because 80-column mode on a TV isn't very pleasant. I've had the top off and photographed the innards. The next job will probably be to upload the EPROMs that contain the ROS (Resident Operating System?) and BASIC so I can disassemble them. I've already dumped the keywords for BASIC. I've not worked out what all the commands in the Front Panel program are yet, but I can see that it uses some bank-switching mechanism for the ROMS. That wasn't entirely unexpected, because I've often wondered how CP/M can put programs in low memory where you'd need a ROM because the Z80 starts execution at location 0. (This isn't a CP/M machine, but it is one generation on from the 380Z, which I also used at school). My machine doesn't have the IEEE-488 or network connectors, although it does have the network DIP switches. From mranalog at home.com Fri Mar 17 02:30:36 2000 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC Message-ID: <38D1ED2C.250655F3@home.com> The C64 Serial _PORT_ The C64 Kernal does have routines that implement a serial port using certain pins on the C64 User Port. But if you don't mind writing your own driver then theoretically speaking all you need to implement a bidirectional serial port is two bits on a port with the capability of defining one as input and the other as output (the input bit should be capable of generating an interrupt), and a ground reference. And if you want RS-232C signal levels (many computers and other serial devices are just fine with TTL level signals) you need to add a RS-232 driver and receiver to the interface. Back then that meant the 1488 and 1489. Today you have the ADM202,MAX202 and the LT1181. There is a problem with the C64 RS-232 Kernal routines. It turns out that the time they take to process one bit plus the timer value for one 1200 baud bit time was slightly more than one 1200 baud bit time. By the 8th bit, the timer interrupt is happening more than 1/2 bit time late, missing a bit. This is why in the early days (before 1985) people had to set the serial port speed to 1210 baud in order to receive reliably at 1200 baud. And of course you really needed two stop bit time to to prepare for the next byte. I really believe that our group wrote the first serial driver to allow the C64 to run full speed at 1200 baud. If you don't need interrupt driven serial routines, we use to do our software development on the Stratus and then download to the C64s in our offices using a serial cable that plugged into one of the joystick ports. Software in the C64 would bit-bang the joystick port at 9600 baud (with the screen blanked). The C64 Serial _BUS_ All fast serial disk software for the C64 can actually be traced back to those clever C64 users in Germany, they did it first. I reverse engineered the Epyx cartridge about 1985. Yes, bits were transfered two at a time with another line used to to signal "ready to receive a byte". I do remember that the intrabyte transfer time for two bits was 10 clock cycles. That doesn't include any of the byte setup time. We were loading just over 50K in less than 15 seconds. The real trick to fast disk routines without blanking the screen was knowing not ask for a byte to be transfered from the disk when the video chip was drawing every 8th scan line. In the C64, the video chip causes a DMA at the end of every 8th scan line to access video ram and get the information for the next 8 lines. This tristates the 6510 for 40 clock cycles and no instructions can be executed. Just my $.02 --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 17 02:55:17 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: IBM S/370 & ESA/390 Emulation Message-ID: <200003170855.AAA06033@shell1.aracnet.com> In the 'Are you as crazy as me' catagory, I just found something that looks really, really cool. Anyone for running OS/360 on your Linux box? If so meet Hercules! http://www.snipix.freeserve.co.uk/hercules.htm http://jmaynard.home.texas.net/hercos360/ Something tells me I just found a use for that Dual 400Mhz Celeron I've got, as this looks to require some *SERIOUS* horsepower to run! OH, Wow!!! :^) Zane PS now if I wasn't *still* stuck at work with problems! :^( From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Fri Mar 17 11:53:36 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: How do you get data about PS/2 disks Message-ID: <20000317093853.2362036B1A@pandora.worldonline.nl> Friends, I got an IBM disk (from a PS/2 55SX) I would like to use. It is presumable an SCSI one with the following flood of numbers on it. P/N 6128256 FRu P/n 6128272 MLC C13052 Model WD-387T Is there somewhere a site with data of such a disk, with the pinnout or can anyone send me the data? Thanks in advance Wim Hofman From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Mar 17 05:05:31 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: what is a commodore B128 ? In-Reply-To: <200003160227.SAA06952@oa.ptloma.edu> References: from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at "Mar 15, 0 06:48:34 pm" Message-ID: <200003171006.LAA23325@mail2.siemens.de> > ::saw one when doing my thrift store runs. opened but still in box. looks like > ::it might be a refurb unit. looks like just a bigger 64. > Very, very different. A failed attempt by Commodore to recapture the business > marke. Right, maybe add a different touch: failed because Commo didn't finish the machine at all, and droped the busines market in favour of the zero investment 1000% earnings C64 home market. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl Fri Mar 17 03:58:15 2000 From: macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl (Maciej S Szymanski) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: VAXStation and TCP/IP Message-ID: <38D201B7.F0D36F81@pzl-okecie.com.pl> > Did you do "@ SYS$MANAGER:TCPIP$CONFIG.COM"? What are everyone's IP > addresses? What failed? How? Yes, ofcourse and IPs are OK also. Bou I've double-checked my PC networking and I've fount that it works fine on twisted pair, howewer there are problems wiht thin wire. I,ve to try another network card. Maciek From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Mar 17 07:31:34 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: How do you get data about PS/2 disks References: <20000317093853.2362036B1A@pandora.worldonline.nl> Message-ID: <38D233B6.2C790937@bigfoot.com> The SCSI drives all have the standard 50 pin (25x2 rows) connector and are useable as standard SCSI. The WD-387T is an MFM or ESDI and has a card edge connector if I'm not mistaken. It should also not have a power connector, whereas the SCSI drives that IBM uses are stock as well with the standard 4 pin Molex for power. The PS/2 Hardware Maint Manual is online for the PS/2 line at http://www3.pc.ibm.com/cgi-bin/bookmgr/BOOKS/s52g9971/CCONTENTS "W.B.(Wim) Hofman" wrote: > Friends, > > I got an IBM disk (from a PS/2 55SX) I would like to use. It is presumable > an SCSI one with the following flood of numbers on it. > P/N 6128256 FRu P/n 6128272 MLC C13052 Model WD-387T > Is there somewhere a site with data of such a disk, with the pinnout or can > anyone send me the data? > Thanks in advance > > Wim Hofman From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Mar 17 07:50:25 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: IBM S/370 & ESA/390 Emulation In-Reply-To: <200003170855.AAA06033@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <13532024452.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Hercules?] I'm playing with that right now. :P Have been for awhile. It's pretty funny, having OS/360 and TSO on a PC... :P ------- From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Mar 17 08:32:34 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: Floppy rehab Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D6124D08@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> I've always used a strip of black electrical tape. It'll work with either mechanical or optical sensors. Steve Robertson > > From: "Stephanie Ring" > > sring@uslink.net > > > > > > I would like to know what material can > > be substituted for the black slide on > > 3.5 floppies when these are missing, > > on the right hand top corner. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000317/56b1da01/attachment.html From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Fri Mar 17 08:50:04 2000 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: IBM S/370 & ESA/390 Emulation In-Reply-To: <13532024452.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <13532024452.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: >[Hercules?] > >I'm playing with that right now. :P Have been for awhile. >It's pretty funny, having OS/360 and TSO on a PC... :P > >------- I tried to hit the hercules web page and it appears to be down. (Doing mainframe stuff on a pc has long been a dream of mine (I used to do sysadmin on a 4381). -Bob Bob Brown Saved by grace Intranet Sysadmin Page: http://info1.harper.cc.il.us/~bbrown From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Mar 17 08:51:50 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: IBM S/370 & ESA/390 Emulation In-Reply-To: <200003170855.AAA06033@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 12:55:17AM -0800 References: <200003170855.AAA06033@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000317095150.C15955@alcor.concordia.ca> On Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 12:55:17AM -0800, healyzh@aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) wrote: > In the 'Are you as crazy as me' catagory, I just found something that looks > really, really cool. Anyone for running OS/360 on your Linux box? If so > meet Hercules! > > http://www.snipix.freeserve.co.uk/hercules.htm > http://jmaynard.home.texas.net/hercos360/ > > Something tells me I just found a use for that Dual 400Mhz Celeron I've got, > as this looks to require some *SERIOUS* horsepower to run! An acquaintance of mine is running Linux as a guest OS on his S/390, and Hercules running 0S/390 in that, and Linux in that. He's currently working on level four. :-) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Mar 17 11:03:14 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: Floppy rehab In-Reply-To: References: <006701bf8fc3$a6d16a40$c257ddcc@uslink.net> Message-ID: >> I would like to know what material can >> be substituted for the black slide on >> 3.5 floppies when these are missing, >> on the right hand top corner. Plastic parts on floppies are horribly standard, so I just pop the button out of another floppy and put it in. That or a bit of tape. From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Mar 17 11:45:13 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:13 2005 Subject: PDP-11's Deccasete Message-ID: We used PDP 11/04's with a cassette drive to collect microbiology data. There is nothing more frustrating than coming in in the morning and finding the cassette tape drive trying to write to the cassette and rocking back and forth on the same spot until the oxide is worn off. We didn't have enough memory to store all of the data in the PDP-11 and there were no disk drives in the system. The entire program was loaded into a PROM and booted the machine. It was one large program that monitored the incubator, moved the test kit carousel, removed the cards, read the optical transmittance, and did the data analysis. The console was a VT-52 with the hard copy option. Even earlier incarnations had PDP 11/05's with core memory. I seem to remember that we were excited when the RX01's came out, we purchased DSD versions and wrote the data to 8" floppies. We wrote data to the correct sector and when we were done the data was in a RSX usable file. What memories. Mike michaelmcfadden@sprintmail.com From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Mar 17 12:10:35 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: 3com 3server3 Message-ID: I just came across a wierd computer box. It is labeled 3com 3server3 and has a dc-300 cartridge tape drive it it. I haven't opened the box yet. I looked on the 3com website and it says that it is a PC server from 1984. Does anyone know anything more? TIA Mike michaelmcfadden@sprintmail.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Mar 17 13:17:26 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: 3com 3server3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I just came across a wierd computer box. It is labeled 3com 3server3 and >has a dc-300 cartridge tape drive it it. I haven't opened the box yet. I >looked on the 3com website and it says that it is a PC server from 1984. >Does anyone know anything more? I think it is some sort of wan thing, wan to wan. I have a newer version with a floppy, likely worthless by now, but sold on ebay last year for about $20. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Mar 17 13:29:05 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: 3com 3server3 In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike" at "Mar 17, 2000 12:10:35 pm" Message-ID: <200003171929.OAA03086@bg-tc-ppp868.monmouth.com> > I just came across a wierd computer box. It is labeled 3com 3server3 and > has a dc-300 cartridge tape drive it it. I haven't opened the box yet. I > looked on the 3com website and it says that it is a PC server from 1984. > Does anyone know anything more? > TIA > Mike > michaelmcfadden@sprintmail.com It's 3com's answer to Netware from the early days of PC networks... I think 3com finally went to Lan Manager and got out of this area of the business... Bill From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Mar 17 13:35:35 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: IBM S/370 & ESA/390 Emulation In-Reply-To: <20000317095150.C15955@alcor.concordia.ca>; from rich@alcor.concordia.ca on Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 09:51:50AM -0500 References: <200003170855.AAA06033@shell1.aracnet.com> <20000317095150.C15955@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <20000317143535.A23556@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 09:51:50AM -0500, Rich Lafferty wrote: > An acquaintance of mine is running Linux as a guest OS on his S/390, > and Hercules running 0S/390 in that, and Linux in that. He's currently > working on level four. :-) OK, this guy is in desparate need of a noogie!!! But anyway, is Hercules really that good? I'd actually been recently thinking that I might try to justify having D Bit cough up the $7,500 to get Open/370 (only FunSoft's web site is a lot more confusing now so I don't know if it's even *that* simple), but if there's a really complete 370 emulator for free that would be great! Having to buy it a fast Athlon to live on is small potatoes compared to the cost of Open/370. And it's *all* nothing compared to what a year's electricity must cost for even a smallish ES/9000. If you told me 15 years ago that some day I'd feel nostalgic about MTS, I would have laughed at you... Well at least I'm not to the point that I'd want to see an emulation of that nasty Memorex half duplex terminal/plotter/clock concentrator! John Wilson D Bit From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Fri Mar 17 13:58:07 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Brand new used C-64 PC References: <200003162317.PAA08940@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <003e01bf904b$44b4a6a0$ac9793c3@proteus> Hi Cameron, > Yup yup yup. I must have missed the original message. The >IEC bus is much faster than that.... I've had a rummage but I can't find my copy of the C-64 progref at the moment. However, according to "The Anatomy of the 1541 Disc Drive" the standard transfer rate across the serial bus is around 400 bytes per second. Assuming no stop/start/parity bits and 8-bit characters, that's 3200 baud. Same book also quotes 1.8K per second for the PETs IEEE/GPIB bus. >....and of course fast serial devices like the 128 (in 128 >mode) coupled with burst-capable devices.... I had a 128D in '87, transfer rates were excellent when running the system in 128 mode (almost comparable with the Atari serial bus), but like most people I ran the system mostly in C-64 mode....I'd actually gotten it to run CP/M, but that's another story. > So you *do* know about Novaload! (Ignore previous message.) Who >wrote it? Do you remember? Yep, that was Paul Woakes....he WAS Novagen (and still lives about 25 minutes walk away from me). Paul wrote the vast majority of the software Novagen released himself. For example, "Mercenary" was released on just about every 8-bit format around in 1985/6. The only versions Paul didn't write himself were the Z-80 ports for Amstrad and Spectrum. In fact, Novagen only released two games which weren't entirely Paul Woakes productions. "Backlash" which was my idea and I did most of the original work on, and a scrolling shoot-em-up (the name of which I forget) which a friend of mine wrote. > I don't remember the details of how it works, but yes, FastLoad >steals another IEC serial bus line.... >....I suspect it uses is the ATN line. Don't ask me how, it just >rings a bell for some reason. As I said, I can't find my progref manual so I can't check the schematics. However, I'd suspect it uses another line since ATN is used as an output from the machine to tell devices on the bus that a command is about to be issued. I'd suspect it probably uses "SRQ IN", I believe this line is normally unused? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 17 12:30:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Floppy rehab In-Reply-To: <006701bf8fc3$a6d16a40$c257ddcc@uslink.net> from "Stephanie Ring" at Mar 16, 0 09:48:19 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1082 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000317/50609c87/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 17 12:44:57 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <38D1EA4A.5326DDD6@rdel.co.uk> from "Paul Williams" at Mar 17, 0 08:18:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2151 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000317/26d3b9b7/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Mar 17 15:22:56 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: SCSI drives in VS3100/M76 Message-ID: <4.1.20000317131930.04151ab0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Hello ClassicCmp and Port-vax, I am trying to track down the compatibility of the VS3100/MS SCSI bus with "modern" SCSI drives. The case in point is that I'm trying to connect a SeaGate Barracuda (ST32550N) drive (2.54GB SCSI) to the internal bus, replacing a 426MB Seagate drive. When the drive is installed the system gets indigestion. I'm currently attempting to disable parity on the drive in case that is an issue. Has anyone done something similar? Is there some caveat I've missed? Obviously the DEC manual isn't much help :-) --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 17 15:35:35 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: IBM S/370 & ESA/390 Emulation In-Reply-To: <13532024452.15.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> References: <200003170855.AAA06033@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >[Hercules?] > >I'm playing with that right now. :P Have been for awhile. >It's pretty funny, having OS/360 and TSO on a PC... :P > >------- So, I've found the places to get OS/360 from, but from reading the doc's it looks like you've got to build a system. Is there anywhere that has a prebuilt system available for download? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Mar 17 16:20:13 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: SCSI drives in VS3100/M76 In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000317131930.04151ab0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from Chuck McManis at "Mar 17, 2000 01:22:56 pm" Message-ID: <200003172220.RAA03324@bg-tc-ppp868.monmouth.com> > Hello ClassicCmp and Port-vax, > > I am trying to track down the compatibility of the VS3100/MS SCSI bus with > "modern" SCSI drives. The case in point is that I'm trying to connect a > SeaGate Barracuda (ST32550N) drive (2.54GB SCSI) to the internal bus, > replacing a 426MB Seagate drive. When the drive is installed the system > gets indigestion. I'm currently attempting to disable parity on the drive > in case that is an issue. > > Has anyone done something similar? Is there some caveat I've missed? > Obviously the DEC manual isn't much help :-) > > --Chuck > > > One obvious thing to mention... System drive maximum 1.3 gig or less I believe. Bill From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Mar 17 16:27:37 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: color graphics on VS3100/M76 (SCSI ok!) Message-ID: <4.1.20000317142230.041447b0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> While debugging SCSI I noticed that there was another board sitting "over" the mainboard on my VS3100. When I run 'Test 50' is shows up as '? SPGFX xxx.xxx' which, I'm guessing, is a color graphics board and there is something wrong with it. (the '?') Does this mean that there is simply no monitor attached? Is this frame buffer compatible with the QDSS? Was there ever a "skunk box" version of the QDSS? (I found some "right angle" QDSS cables that would work in a BA213 but I didn't think there was ever an S-box cab kit for the QDSS. --Chuck On the SCSI drive, disabling parity made it work. Without parity disabled I would get a machine check ?21 CORRUPTN. Weird, DEC usually leans in favor of error detecting/correcting protocols. From oliv555 at arrl.net Fri Mar 17 16:24:57 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: SCSI drives in VS3100/M76 References: <4.1.20000317131930.04151ab0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <38D2B0B8.BDE8006E@arrl.net> I can tell you of some that won't work. I've got several DEC DSPs, Seagate STxx's, and others which are just fine on other systems but NG in my m76. There was some reference recently, either here or on usenet as to the reasons why. Maybe someone else can recall these. I finally relented and bid on an RZ26 on eBay. Should be here Any Day Now. Seems that the RZ series work just fine with the Vaxstations. ............. Nick Chuck McManis wrote: > Hello ClassicCmp and Port-vax, > > I am trying to track down the compatibility of the VS3100/MS SCSI bus with > "modern" SCSI drives. The case in point is that I'm trying to connect a > SeaGate Barracuda (ST32550N) drive (2.54GB SCSI) to the internal bus, > replacing a 426MB Seagate drive. When the drive is installed the system > gets indigestion. I'm currently attempting to disable parity on the drive > in case that is an issue. > > Has anyone done something similar? Is there some caveat I've missed? > Obviously the DEC manual isn't much help :-) > > --Chuck From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri Mar 17 17:33:39 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: SCSI drives in VS3100/M76 In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000317131930.04151ab0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: Hello Chuck Check for 524 byte sectors. Esp if drives might have been used on AS/400's or other similar transplanted martian technology. There is VMS RZDISK.EXE which can correct 524 byte sector problems, not sure for the BSD's. Paul On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Hello ClassicCmp and Port-vax, > > I am trying to track down the compatibility of the VS3100/MS SCSI bus with > "modern" SCSI drives. The case in point is that I'm trying to connect a > SeaGate Barracuda (ST32550N) drive (2.54GB SCSI) to the internal bus, > replacing a 426MB Seagate drive. When the drive is installed the system > gets indigestion. I'm currently attempting to disable parity on the drive > in case that is an issue. > > Has anyone done something similar? Is there some caveat I've missed? > Obviously the DEC manual isn't much help :-) > > --Chuck > From mbg at world.std.com Fri Mar 17 17:34:12 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: color graphics on VS3100/M76 (SCSI ok!) Message-ID: <200003172334.SAA07973@world.std.com> >While debugging SCSI I noticed that there was another board sitting >"over" the mainboard on my VS3100. When I run 'Test 50' is shows up as >'? SPGFX xxx.xxx' which, I'm guessing, is a color graphics board and >there is something wrong with it. (the '?') I believe so... either 4- or 8-plane color >Does this mean that there is simply no monitor attached? > >Is this frame buffer compatible with the QDSS? Can't answer >Was there ever a "skunk box" version of the QDSS? (I found some "right >angle" QDSS cables that would work in a BA213 but I didn't think there >was ever an S-box cab kit for the QDSS. There was no skunk box version of the board (meaning it has the S-box handles)... but there is a skunk-box version of the break-out panel so that one can be used... I have one such unit on my uVaxIII at home... works just fine... And yes, the cable with the right-angle connector is required, otherwise the cabinet front won't close... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 17 17:46:09 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Sharp PC-7000 Message-ID: <20000317234609.68876.qmail@hotmail.com> I just today acquired a Sharp PC-7000 "lunchbox" style luggable, I thought it was a boombox until I opened it up. I know that it is an MS-DOS (XT or AT class?) machine, but now I need software for it. Can someone direct me to a good software archive for this machine? Also, what is the purpose of the metal-covered (screwed shut) connector on the underside of the machine? Is it for an external hard drive? ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From donm at cts.com Fri Mar 17 18:04:17 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Old Kaypro's Home? (fwd) Message-ID: Received this and a later request to post here. As normal, please contact Mr. Hamilton directly. - don ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 12:20:58 -0700 From: DJ Hamilton To: donm@cts.com Subject: Old Kaypro's Home? Can't bear to throw my old Kaypro II and manuals in the dumpster. Does anybody out there want it or the Okidata 92 that goes with it? Would any foolish old sentimental collectors want parts for their museum? The sound the Kaypro would make as it crashes into the bottom of the dumpster would be more than I can take. Any suggestions? DJ Hamilton Denver (303) 355-2833 From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Mar 17 17:57:00 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: 3com 3server3 Message-ID: <20000317.180350.-117231.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> This is an integrated file server that runs a hacked up version of MS-dos, along with 3+Share, which was 3Com's Networking software. It came standard with a 70Mb hard disk, 60MB tape (Wangtek 5099EN24) and 800k memory. It differs memory-map wise from the PC in that, of course, there is no ISA bus nor video adaptor, hence they could allocate more memory to MS-DOS. You could get a Cache card for it, which allowed LIM 3.0 expanded memory operation for disk caching. The 3Server3 uses an 80168 cpu at 8Mc (IIRC). I used to make a fairly decent living maintaining these; then Novell took over, and we all know what happened after that. Jeff On Fri, 17 Mar 2000 12:10:35 -0600 "McFadden, Mike" writes: > I just came across a wierd computer box. It is labeled 3com 3server3 > and > has a dc-300 cartridge tape drive it it. I haven't opened the box > yet. I > looked on the 3com website and it says that it is a PC server from > 1984. > Does anyone know anything more? > TIA > Mike > michaelmcfadden@sprintmail.com > > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Mar 17 19:47:20 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Article web site In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000313213140.00951720@mail.bluefeathertech.com> References: <012101bf8d3f$6b4c93e0$92711fd1@default> Message-ID: <200003180048.BAA29436@mail2.siemens.de> Date sent: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 21:31:40 -0800 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >>>> > the article on collecting is at > www.pioneerpress.com/tech > <<<< > I get an error that says the server is down. Is Pioneer Press having > system or data line problems? I've the same problem from over here. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Technoid at cheta.net Fri Mar 17 18:57:42 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: SCSI drives in VS3100/M76 In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000317131930.04151ab0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <200003180058.TAA20027@lexington.ioa.net> If the host adapter does not 'know' parity, the drive will most likely not appear to exist at all to it. I would think small-word-scsi. A lot of old scsi host adapters and disk controllers don't know how to handle the parity bit and just fart. In <4.1.20000317131930.04151ab0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>, on 03/17/00 at 07:57 PM, Chuck McManis said: >Hello ClassicCmp and Port-vax, >I am trying to track down the compatibility of the VS3100/MS SCSI bus >with "modern" SCSI drives. The case in point is that I'm trying to >connect a SeaGate Barracuda (ST32550N) drive (2.54GB SCSI) to the >internal bus, replacing a 426MB Seagate drive. When the drive is >installed the system gets indigestion. I'm currently attempting to >disable parity on the drive in case that is an issue. >Has anyone done something similar? Is there some caveat I've missed? >Obviously the DEC manual isn't much help :-) >--Chuck -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From broth at heathers.stdio.com Fri Mar 17 19:53:40 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Pooped but!!! Message-ID: <38D2E1A4.21E51D51@heathers.stdio.com> 40 hrs with only a 20min catnap but I have a rental truck full of goodies from a midnight run. Latest stuff: PDP04,34,05, many expansion bus's including a brand new RP11, box's of RT11 on RX floppies, Box's of microfiche, paper tapes, engineering drawings, half dozen MVAX II's, I's with VR260's etc. Small handbooks blah blah. Time for bed... Brian. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Mar 17 20:01:35 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: SCSI drives in VS3100/M76 In-Reply-To: <200003180058.TAA20027@lexington.ioa.net> References: <4.1.20000317131930.04151ab0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000317175926.028356d0@mcmanis.com> Interesting, I tried the internal format (Test 75) and got a couple of errors so on a whim I swapped it out with another one (who wants a SCSI disk with bad blocks anyway?) and the replacement works fine. No errors, nice and quiet. I returned the first drive to the guy who sold it to me and got a replacement. The best clue seems to be that the "bad" drive wouldn't show its size in SHOW DEV but the good drive does. I've written off the drive as bad and am off making more progress. --Chuck From cem14 at cornell.edu Fri Mar 17 20:04:05 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: SCSI drives in VS3100/M76 In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000317131930.04151ab0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000317210405.00f34f4c@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Chuck: Today I retired a Seagate ST31200N from a 2100; it lived inside the cpu box for quite a few years. I remember that the jumper marked "PE" was installed. At 01:22 PM 03/17/2000 -0800, you wrote: >Hello ClassicCmp and Port-vax, > >I am trying to track down the compatibility of the VS3100/MS SCSI bus with >"modern" SCSI drives. The case in point is that I'm trying to connect a >SeaGate Barracuda (ST32550N) drive (2.54GB SCSI) to the internal bus, >replacing a 426MB Seagate drive. When the drive is installed the system >gets indigestion. I'm currently attempting to disable parity on the drive >in case that is an issue. >--Chuck From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Mar 18 00:08:28 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Boxes of C64/128 software. In-Reply-To: <003e01bf904b$44b4a6a0$ac9793c3@proteus> References: <200003162317.PAA08940@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: I bought two large boxes of C64/128 software today. Most of it looks pretty new in the box, but I couldn't fit all of it into the two moving boxes I had, so really bulky items like TimeWorks got the packaging tossed. If somebody is looking for something, email me before it lands on eBay. From liste at artware.qc.ca Sat Mar 18 04:34:40 2000 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Sharp PC-7000 In-Reply-To: <20000317234609.68876.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On 17-Mar-2000 David Vohs wrote: > I just today acquired a Sharp PC-7000 "lunchbox" style luggable, I > thought it was a boombox until I opened it up. I know that it is an > MS-DOS (XT or AT class?) machine, but now I need software for it. Can > someone direct me to a good software archive for this machine? Also, > what is the purpose of the metal-covered (screwed shut) connector on > the underside of the machine? Is it for an external hard drive? www.simtel.com for a large collection of software. Also, if you have at least 4 megs of ram, you should be able to run various flavours of Linux or BSD. Look for picoBSD. Minix would also probably run on it. -Philip From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Mar 18 08:58:21 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Article web site References: <012101bf8d3f$6b4c93e0$92711fd1@default> <200003180048.BAA29436@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <004201bf90ea$68504020$5e711fd1@default> I'm not sure why you guys are having a problem I just clicked on the web address 30 seconds ago and it worked fine. ----- Original Message ----- From: Hans Franke To: Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 6:48 PM Subject: Re: Article web site > Date sent: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 21:31:40 -0800 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > >>>> > > the article on collecting is at > > www.pioneerpress.com/tech > > <<<< > > > I get an error that says the server is down. Is Pioneer Press having > > system or data line problems? > > I've the same problem from over here. > > Gruss > H. > > -- > VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen > http://www.vintage.org/vcfe > http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe > From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Fri Mar 17 15:18:30 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: <38D1EA4A.5326DDD6@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: <000101bf90ef$01952bc0$42e993c3@proteus> Hi, >....This isn't a CP/M machine, but it is one generation >on from the 380Z, which I also used at school. Yep, that was the first micro I really got to know. We had a 380Z at school too. We got it around 1977/78 and it was a cassette based system running an early version of COS (Cassette Operating System) - the floppy disc and CP/M options weren't quite available then. Hours of fun programming in BASIC and CECIL....best of all was the front panel, we had no assembler until the CP/M systems (finally) arrived in 1981 so it was the only way we had of playing with machine code (amazing how quickly you learn those hex codes when you have to). I'm sure I still have a set of 380Z manuals somewhere (BASIC, COS, HiRes Graphics Option etc) but my CP/M discs I suspect are long gone. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Mar 18 10:15:29 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Assistance, etc. Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000318081529.00924c00@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Hi, folks, Well, I've run into a snag. Turns out my oh-so-slick Livingston router won't do ARP proxying along with NAT (both of which are needed to deal with my DSL hookup for adding servers). So, I'm going to build a router that does out of an old PC box, a couple of Ethernet cards, and either Linux or OpenBSD. My first question: Has anyone on the list done ARP proxying with a home-brew router and one of the above OS's? Also, at the risk of venturing slightly outside of the "classic" realm (not by much -- two years or so if I'm not mistaken), I'm looking for the 100Base-T media module for the Compaq NetFlex-3 NIC. Anyone? Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 18 10:56:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <000101bf90ef$01952bc0$42e993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Mar 17, 0 09:18:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1925 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000318/42d0f0d9/attachment.ksh From djenner at halcyon.com Sat Mar 18 11:12:53 2000 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Assistance, etc. References: <3.0.5.32.20000318081529.00924c00@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <38D3B915.3E86153F@halcyon.com> Bruce, Try ShareTheNet (http://www.sharethenet.com). It's Linux based and does just about everything you want to do out of the box. (Except handle multiple static IPs, which I recall you are using. You could use one or more ShareTheNet routers, or just leave your Web, FTP, Mail server(s) out naked rather than behind the ShareTheNet firewall.) It's shareware, so you can try it (for 30 minutes at a time) to see if it suits you. I've run ShareTheNet for over 1.5 years now on my DSL line without any problems. I run it on an old 386 with 8MB RAM, two NICs, a floppy, and no hard drive, keyboard, or monitor. (Your BIOS may require a video adapter; I just put in an old MGA card that was gathering dust.) My system is in a really small chassis (from RE-PC) and just sits on the shelf under my Cisco 675. About the only things I haven't been able to do, and it's probably because I'm often behind a firewall at the outside end, is PPTP in to a machine on my network or use VNC in to a machine on my network. And it IS classic computing--the 386 is over 10 years old! Dave Bruce Lane wrote: > > Hi, folks, > > Well, I've run into a snag. Turns out my oh-so-slick Livingston router > won't do ARP proxying along with NAT (both of which are needed to deal with > my DSL hookup for adding servers). > > So, I'm going to build a router that does out of an old PC box, a couple > of Ethernet cards, and either Linux or OpenBSD. My first question: Has > anyone on the list done ARP proxying with a home-brew router and one of the > above OS's? > > Also, at the risk of venturing slightly outside of the "classic" realm > (not by much -- two years or so if I'm not mistaken), I'm looking for the > 100Base-T media module for the Compaq NetFlex-3 NIC. Anyone? > > Thanks in advance. > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Mar 18 11:44:14 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Assistance, etc. In-Reply-To: <38D3B915.3E86153F@halcyon.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20000318081529.00924c00@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000318094414.0092cdb0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 09:12 18-03-2000 -0800, you wrote: >Bruce, > >Try ShareTheNet (http://www.sharethenet.com). > >It's Linux based and does just about everything >you want to do out of the box. (Except handle >multiple static IPs, which I recall you are using. ...and that, unfortunately, is EXACTLY what I would need it to do. I'll look at it, but I doubt it'll help me much. >You could use one or more ShareTheNet routers, or You mean multiple machines, each one being a router? Yukk... I cringe at the very thought of the cabling that would entail... >just leave your Web, FTP, Mail server(s) out naked >rather than behind the ShareTheNet firewall.) No way! Security around here is going to be TIGHT, and that means everything behind a firewall and NATted. I'm already investigating Linux and *BSD solutions. >It's shareware, so you can try it (for 30 minutes >at a time) to see if it suits you. If it can't deal with multiple static IPs, then it is pretty much useless to me. Thanks for the reply in any case. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Mar 17 15:39:26 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: How do you get data about PS/2 disks In-Reply-To: "W.B.(Wim) Hofman" "How do you get data about PS/2 disks" (Mar 17, 9:53) References: <20000317093853.2362036B1A@pandora.worldonline.nl> Message-ID: <10003172139.ZM6227@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 17, 9:53, W.B.(Wim) Hofman wrote: > I got an IBM disk (from a PS/2 55SX) I would like to use. It is presumable > an SCSI one with the following flood of numbers on it. > P/N 6128256 FRu P/n 6128272 MLC C13052 Model WD-387T > Is there somewhere a site with data of such a disk, with the pinnout or can > anyone send me the data? I don't have any figures for geometry or access times, but I do know that it's a 60MB ESDI drive, not SCSI. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 18 11:49:36 2000 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Assistance, etc. In-Reply-To: <38D3B915.3E86153F@halcyon.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20000318081529.00924c00@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <38D3B915.3E86153F@halcyon.com> Message-ID: In article <38D3B915.3E86153F@halcyon.com>, David C. Jenner writes >And it IS classic computing--the 386 is over 10 >years old! I have a 486SX25 with a copyright date of 1989 so, I suppose, even that is technically on topic now. -- Regards Pete From root at nutopia.org Sat Mar 18 13:01:34 2000 From: root at nutopia.org (Nathaniel Grady) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Assistance, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000318094414.0092cdb0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: Try the linux router project - fits on a floppy or whatever, very similar to sharethenet (which if I remember correctly was a deriverative of LRP) at www.linuxrouter.org. It's free and there are packages for everything! --Nate Grady nate@logicprobe.org On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Bruce Lane wrote: > At 09:12 18-03-2000 -0800, you wrote: > > >Bruce, > > > >Try ShareTheNet (http://www.sharethenet.com). > > > >It's Linux based and does just about everything > >you want to do out of the box. (Except handle > >multiple static IPs, which I recall you are using. > > ...and that, unfortunately, is EXACTLY what I would need it to do. I'll > look at it, but I doubt it'll help me much. > > >You could use one or more ShareTheNet routers, or > > You mean multiple machines, each one being a router? Yukk... I cringe at > the very thought of the cabling that would entail... > > >just leave your Web, FTP, Mail server(s) out naked > >rather than behind the ShareTheNet firewall.) > > No way! Security around here is going to be TIGHT, and that means > everything behind a firewall and NATted. I'm already investigating Linux > and *BSD solutions. > > >It's shareware, so you can try it (for 30 minutes > >at a time) to see if it suits you. > > If it can't deal with multiple static IPs, then it is pretty much useless > to me. > > Thanks for the reply in any case. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Mar 18 13:49:37 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Assistance, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20000318094414.0092cdb0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000318114937.00909430@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 14:01 18-03-2000 -0500, you wrote: >Try the linux router project - fits on a floppy or whatever, very similar >to sharethenet (which if I remember correctly was a deriverative of >LRP) at www.linuxrouter.org. It's free and there are packages for >everything! I've looked at it, yes. However, the configuration instructions are not that clear to me. There doesn't seem to be a "HowTo" where setting it up is concerned, only to add packages. Thanks, though. I'm still working this... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sat Mar 18 14:12:08 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Atari XE GS Message-ID: <200003182012.MAA04220@oa.ptloma.edu> In today's thrift store trek, I came up with a Wico trackball for my C128 and one of those cute little Apple //c mini monochrome composite monitors which in the ultimate irony will go to the 121-colour Commodore Plus/4, which has been sharing a Commodore 1902 with two 128s. The other thing I found was an Atari XE GS with no power supply or peripherals. Since it was only $2, I picked it up. Aside from being dusty, it looks to be in good shape, so I'm going to try to clean it up. Can anyone tell me about them? How unusual are they? What is the pinout on the power supply (it's an 8-pin DIN)? >From the looks of it, it seems to be a 65XE in a case with no keyboard and just the regular Atari function keys (OPTION, etc.). I've heard of them but never actually seen one, and I don't know too much about the Atari 8-bits to start with. I assume it takes 5200 and regular Atari 400/800/1200/etc. cartridges and the usual Atari/Commodore joysticks. I'm also interested to know how uncommon they are. Thanks for any help! -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- In memory of Bruce Geller -------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 18 14:21:12 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Assistance, etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000318081529.00924c00@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: >of Ethernet cards, and either Linux or OpenBSD. My first question: Has >anyone on the list done ARP proxying with a home-brew router and one of the >above OS's? Go with OpenBSD. That's what I'm using an mine. Simple test, set up two boxes side by side. One running Linux, the other running OpenBSD. Then run Saint on both of them, after that you're likely to never want to run Linux on a Server again, at least not one connected to the net. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Mar 18 14:28:33 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Atari XE GS In-Reply-To: <200003182012.MAA04220@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > The other thing I found was an Atari XE GS with no power supply or > peripherals. Since it was only $2, I picked it up. Aside from being > dusty, it looks to be in good shape, so I'm going to try to clean it > up. Can anyone tell me about them? How unusual are they? What is the > pinout on the power supply (it's an 8-pin DIN)? 7pin DIN, same as the 800XL ps: 7 6 3 1 5 4 2 1 +5V 2 Shield 3 Ground 4 +5V 5 Ground 6 +5V 7 Ground From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Mar 18 14:35:12 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Assistance, etc. Message-ID: <20000318203512.2525.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bruce Lane wrote: > At 14:01 18-03-2000 -0500, you wrote: > > >Try the linux router project - fits on a floppy or whatever, very similar > >to sharethenet ... It's free and there are packages for everything! That's all true. I've been using it for a while and have even put together packages to turn a crufty old 486SLC into a web cam (it snaps pictures with a Connectix QuickCam and ftps them to my web page). > I've looked at it, yes. However, the configuration instructions are not > that clear to me. There doesn't seem to be a "HowTo" where setting it up is > concerned, only to add packages. There are a couple of versions out there. I know the older one, 2.9.3. Write to me off the list if you want. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 18 15:27:08 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Atari XE GS In-Reply-To: <200003182012.MAA04220@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >The other thing I found was an Atari XE GS with no power supply or >peripherals. Since it was only $2, I picked it up. Aside from being >dusty, it looks to be in good shape, so I'm going to try to clean it >up. Can anyone tell me about them? How unusual are they? What is the >pinout on the power supply (it's an 8-pin DIN)? The only thing I can tell you about 8-bit Atari's is that seem to *never* have the PowerSupply. Well, that and at least around here they're rare as hens teeth. Just what is it about Atari's and their PS's? Did the PS's suck royally and normally get tossed (and usually the computer get tossed at the same time) or what? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Mar 18 15:56:24 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Atari XE GS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Just what is it about Atari's and their PS's? Did the PS's suck royally > and normally get tossed (and usually the computer get tossed at the same > time) or what? PS's are like socks in the dryer; there is some kind of unexplained phenomena that seperates them from their computers... Some of the XL PS's (noc specifics, sorry) were under-rated and burned up, but I never had one die, even with 512k ram upgrade installed in my 130XE. From paulrsm at ameritech.net Sat Mar 18 19:37:40 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Boxes of C64/128 software. Message-ID: <20000319014257.JJC4547.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> > From: Mike Ford > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Boxes of C64/128 software. > Date: Saturday, March 18, 2000 01:08 AM > > I bought two large boxes of C64/128 software today. Most of it looks pretty > new in the box, but I couldn't fit all of it into the two moving boxes I > had, so really bulky items like TimeWorks got the packaging tossed. If > somebody is looking for something, email me before it lands on eBay. Got BallBlazer? Any cartridge (not floppy disk) games? Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Mar 18 20:31:33 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: BDV11? Message-ID: Does anyone have one of these to sell/trade away? Thanks, Aaron From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Mar 18 21:01:22 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: BDV11? References: Message-ID: <38D44302.D047F993@idirect.com> >Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Does anyone have one of these to sell/trade away? Jerome Fine replies: Is this the board used to terminate a BA11 backplane that usually includes an 11/23? Also boot ROMs for the RL02 and RX02? A quad board that is placed last in the backplane? Do you have a board number? If so, yes - actually probably several. From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sat Mar 18 21:19:39 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: Message-ID: <00a101bf9154$2db54cc0$42e493c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > Ah, the fun of TEXED (Text Editor, which had TECO-like >commands, although I didn't realise it at the time).... Ah yes, "TEXED" I really liked that one too; especially since when I started using WordStar many of the commands were the same. :-) >....ZASM (Z80 Assembler), BASIC, tiny Pascal, MDOC >(Minidisk Doctor -- a sector editor) etc. We never had the tiny Pascal or MDOC packages. ZASM was neat, probably the first assembler I ever used in fact! > When the teachers weren't watching, there was always the >user port :-) Yeah, we had fun with that too. Strangely enough the original cassette based 380Z belonged to the maths department (along with the Teletype linked to a mainframe many miles away....I don't know what it was, but I do recall it printed out "TTFN" when you logged off (hence the "TTFN" at the bottom of my messages) and the word "MAXIMOP" appeared somewhere in the log in banner). The four disc based machines, when they appeared went to the physics department though. They got a Beeb about the same time too. > I don't think I ever used a 380Z without disks.... It's strange, I've only ever seen two non-disc based 380Zs. The one at school and the one I saw reviewed in some computer magazine of the day. I've also seen two different types of disc based machine, one with the drives mounted horizontally (the most common IME) and one type with them mounted vertically. > A few years ago, I spotted one at a radio rally for a very >low price.... Yes, I saw one at the Drayton Rally a few years back. I'd have bought it but I'd just cleaned myself out buying an Apollo DN3500 (a "FULLY OPERATIONAL" system which I found was devoid of RAM when I got it home). Of course, I've not seen one since. :-( > The only one I'm lacking is the COS source listing. Yes, it >was available as an optional extra, but I've never seen it. I'm going to be doing battle with the room in which these manuals are stored in a day or two. I'll have a look and see exactly what I have....I do recall seeing a COS source listing at school, but I don't think I have a copy myself (worth checking though). TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sat Mar 18 20:58:54 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Atari XE GS References: <200003182012.MAA04220@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <00a001bf9154$2cd37840$42e493c3@proteus> Hi, >....found was an Atari XE GS with no power supply or >peripherals.... >....Can anyone tell me about them? How unusual are they? >What is the pinout on the power supply (it's an 8-pin >DIN)? The GS is, as you guessed, merely a 65XE in a different case. They're not particularly common here in the UK, but at the same time they're not exactly rare either. I've seen about the same number of GS' at rallies as I have XL/XE machines. The power supply pinout is, AFAIK, exactly the same as that of the regular XL & XE series machines. >....I assume it takes 5200 and regular Atari 400/800/1200/etc. >cartridges and the usual Atari/Commodore joysticks. The only console which takes 5200 carts is a 5200 (anyone in the UK got a 5200 they don't mind losing?). The XE-GS plays all regular Atari 8-bit carts - well the ones which work on XL/XE machines anyway (which is the vast majority). And, yes it uses standard Atari compatible joysticks. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Mar 18 22:28:46 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: BDV11? In-Reply-To: <38D44302.D047F993@idirect.com> Message-ID: Hi Jerome, It should be an m8012. It is ideed the quad 11/23 terminator/boot rom board... On Sat, 18 Mar 2000, Jerome Fine wrote: > >Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > Does anyone have one of these to sell/trade away? > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Is this the board used to terminate a BA11 backplane > that usually includes an 11/23? Also boot ROMs > for the RL02 and RX02? A quad board that is placed > last in the backplane? Do you have a board number? > > If so, yes - actually probably several. > From donm at cts.com Sat Mar 18 22:42:09 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <000101bf90ef$01952bc0$42e993c3@proteus> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Mar 2000, Peter Pachla wrote: > Hi, > > >....This isn't a CP/M machine, but it is one generation > >on from the 380Z, which I also used at school. > > Yep, that was the first micro I really got to know. > > We had a 380Z at school too. We got it around 1977/78 and it was a cassette > based system running an early version of COS (Cassette Operating System) - > the floppy disc and CP/M options weren't quite available then. > > Hours of fun programming in BASIC and CECIL....best of all was the front > panel, we had no assembler until the CP/M systems (finally) arrived in 1981 > so it was the only way we had of playing with machine code (amazing how > quickly you learn those hex codes when you have to). > > > I'm sure I still have a set of 380Z manuals somewhere (BASIC, COS, HiRes > Graphics Option etc) but my CP/M discs I suspect are long gone. I have CP/M system disks for the RML380Z. E-mail me if interested. - don From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 18 22:46:43 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:14 2005 Subject: BDV11? Message-ID: <200003190446.XAA29079@world.std.com> <38D1EA4A.5326DDD6@rdel.co.uk> <000101bf90ef$01952bc0$42e993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <38D4AD6B.39F162C@rdel.co.uk> Peter Pachla wrote: > > We had a 380Z at school too. We got it around 1977/78 and it was a > cassette based system running an early version of COS (Cassette > Operating System) - the floppy disc and CP/M options weren't quite > available then. I don't believe my school was that early, though COS rings a bell, so presumably that entire bootrom including Front Panel was called COS, even though we actually justed booted 31K (and later, 56K!) builds of CP/M. Our machines had twin disks. Later on, we bought two 480Zs (in black, to match) and a Memotech MTX512. At first, two maths teachers were conscripted into teaching 'O' level Computer Studies, which involved talking about core memory and learning BASIC. I first saw some core memory about three weeks ago when a colleague pulled some out of a cupboard, 20 years after I first heard about it. Perhaps it's time for another trip to the Science Museum. My school only taught Computer Studies for four years, because teaching about computers was quickly displaced by learning about computers in other subjects. Oddly enough, they were most enthusiastically employed by the History department, because one of the teachers was involved in the development of an archaeology program called DIG. > Hours of fun programming in BASIC and CECIL CESIL, Computer Education in Schools Instructional Language. CESIL was hilarious. We had an interpreter for it, written in BASIC so that it ran many times more slowly than BASIC, despite looking like assembler, with instructions like JIZERO. I was straight back to BASIC or machine code (entered in the Front Panel) at lunchtimes. > ....best of all was the front > panel, we had no assembler until the CP/M systems (finally) arrived > in 1981 so it was the only way we had of playing with machine code > (amazing how quickly you learn those hex codes when you have to). Absolutely. Our assembler only took 8080 mnemonics, so I continued using the Front Panel and DATA statements in BASIC. From flo at rdel.co.uk Sun Mar 19 04:49:43 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: Message-ID: <38D4B0C7.B11284D4@rdel.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > > From what I remember, this machine is painful to take apart, with > dozens of screws. Unlike the 380Z which involves taking out 2 screws > and pulling the top of the case. Six on the bottom, four for the keyboard and another four for the Mini Station Options board, which is largely unpopulated. I can see from the mismatched screws on the bottom that it has been taken apart many times before! > The video RAM, at least the text mode RAM, seems to be mapped into > the I/O space, but I've not really looked at that. Poking all the RAM locations from Front Panel gave me that impression, along with a few crashes, but hey, Reset and straight back into Front Panel! I think that the high res graphics are also I/O mapped, which is why they are so slow. I wrote a sprite routine for the 480Z, but it was only flicker-free for sprites with a width of 20 pixels or fewer, because I had to output to one port to give me a time window to the RAM, and then pump bytes containing four pixels through another port. I wish I'd kept all those listings now. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Mar 19 07:32:03 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Small router In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000318094414.0092cdb0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from Bruce Lane at "Mar 18, 2000 09:44:14 am" Message-ID: <200003191332.IAA02420@bg-tc-ppp323.monmouth.com> Take a look at picobsd based on FreeBSD. Bill > At 09:12 18-03-2000 -0800, you wrote: > > >Bruce, > > > >Try ShareTheNet (http://www.sharethenet.com). > > > >It's Linux based and does just about everything > >you want to do out of the box. (Except handle > >multiple static IPs, which I recall you are using. > > ...and that, unfortunately, is EXACTLY what I would need it to do. I'll > look at it, but I doubt it'll help me much. > > >You could use one or more ShareTheNet routers, or > > You mean multiple machines, each one being a router? Yukk... I cringe at > the very thought of the cabling that would entail... > > >just leave your Web, FTP, Mail server(s) out naked > >rather than behind the ShareTheNet firewall.) > > No way! Security around here is going to be TIGHT, and that means > everything behind a firewall and NATted. I'm already investigating Linux > and *BSD solutions. > > >It's shareware, so you can try it (for 30 minutes > >at a time) to see if it suits you. > > If it can't deal with multiple static IPs, then it is pretty much useless > to me. > > Thanks for the reply in any case. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > > From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sun Mar 19 09:11:22 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Pagemanker 4 book available Message-ID: <38D4EE1A.5F5028B5@bigfoot.com> First book in my way after starting to go through things - Using Pagemaker 4 for the PC by Matthews & Matthews. Paperback in like new condition. Need $5 plus book rate postage for it if anyone is interested. Drop me a direct email if interested or more info. Russ Blakeman Clarkson, KY USA From rcini at msn.com Sun Mar 19 12:15:52 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Hacking Netpliance?? Message-ID: <000b01bf91cf$54248300$6464a8c0@office1> Anyone see the NYTimes article on the Netpliance i-Opener Internet access ap pliance? There's mention about hacking one to get it to use *any* internet a ccess, not just the one which you are supposed to purchase with it. Sounds like a neat hacking project. There's a USB port on the back, so a USB -to-Ethernet converter would work there. I also read that one could lash a h ard drive to it. Anyone done this yet? Rich [ Rich Cini [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun Mar 19 12:59:12 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Hacking Netpliance?? In-Reply-To: <000b01bf91cf$54248300$6464a8c0@office1>; from rcini@msn.com on Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 01:15:52PM -0500 References: <000b01bf91cf$54248300$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: <20000319125912.E24934@mrbill.net> On Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 01:15:52PM -0500, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > Anyone see the NYTimes article on the Netpliance i-Opener Internet access ap > pliance? There's mention about hacking one to get it to use *any* internet a > ccess, not just the one which you are supposed to purchase with it. > Sounds like a neat hacking project. There's a USB port on the back, so a USB > -to-Ethernet converter would work there. I also read that one could lash a h > ard drive to it. > Anyone done this yet? > Rich Look in the archives on slashdot; there was an article about this going into detail about a week or so ago. basically you install onto a laptop 2.5" HD using another system, then install that into the NetPliance, and use a splitter cable to put a normal PS/2 keyboard and mouse on. Bill -- +---------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | +-------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------+-----------------------------------------+ | Version: 3.12 GCS d- s:++ a- C++++ US++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ N++ o K+++ w--- | | O- M-- V- PS PE+ Y+ PGP t+ 5 X- R-- tv+++ b++++ DI++++ D++ G++ e++ h r++ y+ | +--------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------------------------------------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 19 13:19:01 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Hacking Netpliance?? Message-ID: <200003191919.OAA13516@world.std.com> --- "Richard A. Cini, Jr." wrote: > Anyone see the NYTimes article on the Netpliance i-Opener Internet access ap > pliance? Yep... they are at least a week behind the curve on reporting it. > Sounds like a neat hacking project. There's a USB port on the back, so a USB > -to-Ethernet converter would work there. I also read that one could lash a h > ard drive to it. > > Anyone done this yet? Not yet... they are out of stock nationally (due to the ./ effect). Mine is on order and won't arrive for at least a week or two. I've heard that Netpliance is evaluating how to reword their ads/sales agreements/etc. to make the idea of hacking one less attractive because they are currently subsidizing a $300-$400 machine to sell their ISP service. If you order one direct from the company, they "include" the first month's service on the sale, but you can cancel after that. I'm wondering if they will go to a rebate sales model - buy the unit at $300-$350 and get the first year on the 'net "free". In any case, I'll be getting mine eventually. One of the nicknames for the box amongst the hacker community is the "iOpenedIt". -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 19 14:18:17 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Hacking Netpliance?? In-Reply-To: <000b01bf91cf$54248300$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: >Anyone done this yet? > >Rich Well, there are about four of us on the list waiting to get ours :^) I'm undecided on what OS, though am leaning towards NetBSD as it has the best USB support of the Unix varients. I basically bought it to be a PDP-11 emulator. I plan on giving the serial port hack a try also as I would kind of like to be able to use it as a System Console for my PDP-11/44! One interesting hack, that I'd like to do, but won't be trying as I shake to much for that kind of soldering is to put an actual Pentium processor in it. That's supposed to significantly speed the system up. Downside is *no one* has them back in stock as far as I know. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sun Mar 19 14:36:08 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: TCP/IP for RT-11 help Message-ID: Hi, Can someone point me at any documentation for installing/configuring the tcp/ip package for RT-11? I got the pkg file and have looked at the contents, but a little bit of doc would go a long way at this point... Thanks, Aaron From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 19 13:01:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <00a101bf9154$2db54cc0$42e493c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Mar 19, 0 03:19:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1815 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000319/9dc7a663/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 19 13:18:37 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <38D4B0C7.B11284D4@rdel.co.uk> from "Paul Williams" at Mar 19, 0 10:49:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1474 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000319/43d6c688/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 19 13:13:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <38D4AD6B.39F162C@rdel.co.uk> from "Paul Williams" at Mar 19, 0 10:35:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1934 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000319/c33d9495/attachment.ksh From sipke at wxs.nl Sun Mar 19 14:56:02 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Small router References: <200003191332.IAA02420@bg-tc-ppp323.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <001101bf91e5$8bbcae80$030101ac@boll.casema.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Pechter To: Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2000 2:32 PM Subject: Small router > Take a look at picobsd based on FreeBSD. > > Bill > > Where can I find a llink to picobsd ? Sipke From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sun Mar 19 15:06:46 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: TCP/IP for RT-11 help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oops, Just answered my own question while digging through all the disk images...mounted docdsk.dsk and it's all there, doh! Cheers, Aaron On Sun, 19 Mar 2000, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Hi, > > Can someone point me at any documentation for installing/configuring the > tcp/ip package for RT-11? I got the pkg file and have looked at the > contents, but a little bit of doc would go a long way at this point... > > Thanks, > > Aaron > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Mar 19 15:28:09 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Mos Technology RAM wanted Message-ID: <10003192128.ZM8369@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> I went to use my PET 2001-8K today, and found it claimed to only have 3071 bytes free :-( One of the MCS6550 RAMs has gone west. Does anyone have a spare, or an equivalent, for sale? It's a 22-pin 1024 x 4 200ns static RAM. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From Technoid at cheta.net Sun Mar 19 15:24:38 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Atari XE GS In-Reply-To: <200003182012.MAA04220@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <200003192128.QAA16782@lexington.ioa.net> The XEGS is a 64k Atari-XE machine with Built-in Missile Command, Basic, and another game I think. The main differences are the Detachable keyboard (First and last for Atari 8 bits), and the absence of any expansion buss though I am sure you could graft one on. The only thing missing is the connector. It would be a hairy job to add it. I did to my 1200xl after grafting 800xl roms and internal basic into it. It is now a true 800xl but the PBI mod did not work. Never was sure why. You would think after nearly 100 solder connections and about 58 wires that SOMETHING would happen when I plugged the Black Box into it, but nothing did either positive or negative. Don't recall which supply it used but I believe it is a 7pin din connector. If so then it takes straight 5volt dc and I can give you the pinout. If it is one of those 'barrel +bayonet' style connectors it probably used one of those ubiquitous 9vac adapters nearly every thing Atari made ran on. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Mar 19 15:34:04 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Small router Message-ID: <20000319.153404.-252337.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> try: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/picobsd.html On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:56:02 +0100 "Sipke de Wal" writes: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Pechter > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2000 2:32 PM > Subject: Small router > > > > Take a look at picobsd based on FreeBSD. > > > > Bill > > > > > > Where can I find a llink to picobsd ? > > Sipke > > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 19 15:34:58 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Hacking Netpliance?? Message-ID: <200003192134.QAA17673@world.std.com> Message-ID: > >It's been done and it is socket-7, solder? > >Allison I gather you've got to change a couple of the surface mount resistors. This URL gives the details: http://www.linux-hacker.net/iopener/cpu-up.html Hmm, actually I just might be able to pull this hack off.... Not sure I want to risk the thing to my soldering abilities though. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jpero at cgocable.net Sun Mar 19 11:26:57 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Hacking Netpliance?? In-Reply-To: <200003192134.QAA17673@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200003192223.e2JMNpn09550@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 16:34:58 -0500 (EST) > From: Allison J Parent > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Hacking Netpliance?? > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > It's been done and it is socket-7, solder? Winchip are totally no-solder straight swap for P54C single voltage boards. Drop a pentium 200 or 180 in (not mmx ones) in place of winchip. But the clock rate is still at 60mhz gives 180, you'll have to find a way to get it going for 66mhz FSB. > Allison Wizard From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 19 18:19:28 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Hacking Netpliance?? Message-ID: <200003200019.TAA14281@world.std.com> <>It's been done and it is socket-7, solder? <> <>Allison < ; from ethan_dicks@yahoo.com on Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 12:16:09PM -0800 References: <20000319201609.13699.qmail@web615.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000319194019.A108@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Mar 19, 2000 at 12:16:09PM -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Not yet... they are out of stock nationally (due to the ./ effect). Really? The guy I talked to when I ordered mine (at 1-800-IOPENER) said they had plenty of them, in both colors. Well I doubt the order takers get much feedback. John Wilson D Bit From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Sun Mar 19 18:42:47 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Mos Technology RAM wanted Message-ID: <20000320004247.89074.qmail@hotmail.com> Pete, Umm is that the same as a Motorola 6665BP20, which I know is 200ns... If so I can help you. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 19 19:09:02 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Hacking Netpliance?? In-Reply-To: <200003200019.TAA14281@world.std.com> Message-ID: >I have that url bookmarked. Depends on the cpu, the polder P200 non split >parts are drop in. The next generation MMX needs three voltages of some >such and that board doesn't have that wired. Cool, guess I'll have to keep my eyes open for one once I get the system. For what I want a little extra horsepower would be nice. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Sun Mar 19 19:25:22 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Atari XE GS In-Reply-To: <200003192128.QAA16782@lexington.ioa.net> from "Technoid@cheta.net" at "Mar 19, 0 04:24:38 pm" Message-ID: <200003200125.RAA10816@oa.ptloma.edu> ::The XEGS is a 64k Atari-XE machine with Built-in Missile Command, Basic, ::and another game I think. The main differences are the Detachable keyboard ::(First and last for Atari 8 bits), and the absence of any expansion buss ::though I am sure you could graft one on. The only thing missing is the ::connector. Built-in games? How do you access them, assuming I get it running? ::Don't recall which supply it used but I believe it is a 7pin din ::connector. If so then it takes straight 5volt dc and I can give you the ::pinout. Yes, it's seven (too used to Commodore 8-pin DIN monitor cables and miscounted :-). Aaron Christopher gave me the pinout. I haven't looked, but does R**** S**** sell them? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Military justice is to justice what military music is to music. -- G. Marx - From Technoid at cheta.net Sun Mar 19 19:53:57 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Atari XE GS In-Reply-To: <200003200125.RAA10816@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <200003200201.VAA16606@lexington.ioa.net> On the Atari 8-bit you have several standard startup keystrokes you can use to customize your environment. The most known of these is holding down OPTION while powering the machine. This disables internal BASIC on all atari XL/XE machines but yours. On the XEGS it ENABLES internal BASIC which is a welcome change for most 8-bitters. Another is holding the START key while powering which causes the machine to BEEP indicating that you should cue the cassette drive for a boot from cassette. START and OPTION can be combined to produce a binary bootstrap without internal basic except with your XEGS which would produce a binary boot with BASIC enabled.... The other three keys are unused in this way and thus were used to select the additional game roms built in to the XEGS which was a full Atari 8-bit billed as a game machine in 88'? The three function keys are not regular keys and are controlled by a different IC. They can be compined to produce 16 combinations of codes. I think the other game beside Missile Command was Asteroids but I can't be sure not having an XEGS (got almost all the others though ;-). If you want any support or software for your new machine, contact me via e-mail and I will help you get going. I have MEGS and MEGS of software and games, languages, terminal software, you name it, I got it. Too bad you didn't get the keyboard with it though. You can get one from B&C Computervisions in San Jose CA or from San Jose Computers in the same town. It is a surprisingly solid, full-stroke XE keyboard that is as useable as any xe keyboard. The Xe machines' keyboards had a rep for a 'spongy' feel but I have used one for 15 years and call it 'light touch'. Very little pressure is required to produce a character. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From Technoid at cheta.net Sun Mar 19 20:05:24 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Atari XE GS In-Reply-To: <200003200125.RAA10816@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <200003200204.VAA17266@lexington.ioa.net> Ooops. You can infer what to do from my last message but try holding SELECT while powering on. I think START+SELECT got you the other game. Good luck and remember if you need any help to drop me a note. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sun Mar 19 20:41:47 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Atari XE GS In-Reply-To: <200003200125.RAA10816@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > Yes, it's seven (too used to Commodore 8-pin DIN monitor cables and > miscounted :-). Aaron Christopher gave me the pinout. I haven't looked, > but does R**** S**** sell them? B & C Computer (San Jose) has them, and I believe Best Electronics has them cheap too...but let me look in my garage tonight, I may have an extra. Aaron From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 19 20:45:49 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Hacking Netpliance?? Message-ID: <200003200245.VAA13211@world.std.com> Not yet... they are out of stock nationally (due to the ./ effect). < Message-ID: <200003200325.WAA05661@lexington.ioa.net> The pinout for the connector is: Looking at the connector (female) on the computer: 7 6 3 1 5 4 2 Sorry I am not practiced at making 'round' ascii... This is the pin sequence. 1. +5vdc 2. Shield 3. GRND (earth) 4. +5vdc 5. GRND 6. +5vdc 7. GRND Ignore the shields, wire the grounds to a ground wire on a clone power supply and wire the 5 volt from the clone supply to the three 5volt inputs. The computer may or may not power on but if not it is easily fixable. A lot of clone supplies require a fair load before they will actually power on and deliver any significant current - the 130xe alone, even mine with 576k and three os roms does not pull enough. The solution is then to run your hard disks on the clone supply you are trying to power the computer from. This is very convenient! I have been running my XL/XE machines on clone supplies for so many years the supplies are rusty and look ugly. Another cool thing is that the power requirements of a killer Atari 8-bit machine are generally very low compared to the potential output of a clone switching power supply. This means you can use supplies which have failed due to FAN Failure. In other words, just use the good supply with the bad fan. Demand is low so the heat dissipates by convection and there is no need for the fan. The above diagram came from the Atari 130xe's Owner's manual. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From whdawson at mlynk.com Mon Mar 20 02:00:38 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs, almost free Message-ID: <000001bf9242$6180efc0$b0e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Hello group, These were given to me recently by another member of this list who also has no use for them (thanks, Pat). They can be yours for 1.5 times shipping cost. All are in great condition and I have no reason to believe they shouldn't work. Specifically, what I have are: Quantity 3 Allied Telesis / CentreCom model AT-280 (2-port transceiver fan-out) Quantity 3 Allied Telesis / CentreCom model AT-480 (4-port transceiver fan-out) Quantity 3 Canary Communications model F 4000 Rev.B (4-port transceiver fan-out) All are DTE powered and "can be installed with any existing standards-based transceiver used in thicknet (10BASE5), thinnet (10BASE2), fiber optic (FOIRL) and twisted pair (10BASE-T) installations". Summary information on the Allied Telesis units can be found at http://www.lantech.nl/products/ati/fanout.html and technical information and manuals in pdf format can be found at http://www.alliancedatacom.com/allied-telesyn-products.htm by using the site's "Search Site" button and entering either AT-280 or AT-480. Information on the Canary transceivers can be found at http://www.canarycom.com by searching for F-4000 and using the first link in the returned list. Information in pdf format for the F-4000 can be found by using the eighth link in the returned list, under Transceiver Products. Please contact me off list if interested in one or some for your own use. Please don't ask if your intention is resale. I realize these aren't vintage yet, but I know some of you can and will use these in networking vintage equipment d8^) I'll post to the list when all have been spoken for. Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From Bob.Yates at amana.com Mon Mar 20 02:09:50 2000 From: Bob.Yates at amana.com (Bob Yates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Info on Sharp PC-7000 and Wang WLTC Wanted Message-ID: <37fed381.200200@amcn-smtp.amana.com> Saw the recent request for info on the Sharp and want to add my name to the list for info. also looking for info on the Wang WLTC. Picked up one with no power supply! From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Mon Mar 20 07:23:09 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: Mos Technology RAM wanted In-Reply-To: <10003192128.ZM8369@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:28:09 GMT Pete Turnbull wrote: > I went to use my PET 2001-8K today, and found it claimed to only have 3071 > bytes free :-( > > One of the MCS6550 RAMs has gone west. Does anyone have a spare, or an > equivalent, for sale? It's a 22-pin 1024 x 4 200ns static RAM. I'll have to check the RAMs in the spare PET that I keep in the garage. Can't remember whether they're SRAMs or DRAMs in the bigger PETs. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Mar 20 09:40:03 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: iOpener Message-ID: <200003201540.KAA02761@dbit.dbit.com> Mine just arrived this morning, I had ordered it from Netpliance's own 800 # so evidently at least *they* still have stock even if CC doesn't (suits me, the nearest CC is 1.5 hours away from me anyway). In keeping with nerd tradition I've got the thing all in pieces before even powering it on for the first time -- boy they sure didn't skimp on screws! But the 44-pin connector is right there as promised. I'm thinking of maybe doing a tiny PCB rather than soldering 44 individual wires on, I wonder if there's a +12V source in hear anywhere so that standard 40-pin IDE drives could be used too and not just laptop drives? The case is *really* cramped though. John Wilson D Bit From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 20 10:05:52 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <200003201540.KAA02761@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > In keeping with nerd tradition I've got the thing all in pieces before even > powering it on for the first time -- boy they sure didn't skimp on screws! > But the 44-pin connector is right there as promised. I'm thinking of maybe > doing a tiny PCB rather than soldering 44 individual wires on, I wonder if > there's a +12V source in hear anywhere so that standard 40-pin IDE drives could > be used too and not just laptop drives? The case is *really* cramped though. Probe around for the 12v, likely it can't push much power though. I plan to build an external IDE as the PS for that it trivial and then I can use a 3.5" . NOTE: all reports say 17mm thick drives or thinner. The alternate plan is a booter in flash and use that to get to a Parallel port box (3.2gb 3.5" disk inside) I've done that using floppy on other machines. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 20 10:18:51 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <200003201540.KAA02761@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Mar 20, 2000 10:40:03 AM Message-ID: <200003201618.IAA26796@shell1.aracnet.com> > Mine just arrived this morning, I had ordered it from Netpliance's own > 800 # so evidently at least *they* still have stock even if CC doesn't > (suits me, the nearest CC is 1.5 hours away from me anyway). You lucky ^$&#**@ !!!! Who knows when CC will get mine in. > In keeping with nerd tradition I've got the thing all in pieces before even > powering it on for the first time -- boy they sure didn't skimp on screws! > But the 44-pin connector is right there as promised. I'm thinking of maybe > doing a tiny PCB rather than soldering 44 individual wires on, I wonder if > there's a +12V source in hear anywhere so that standard 40-pin IDE drives could > be used too and not just laptop drives? The case is *really* cramped though. > > John Wilson > D Bit > I think it's possible to pull +12V out of it somehow, but am not sure the powersupply can handle a standard drive. BTW, apparently two laptop cables and one 44-pin connector are an easy way to get the HD in. Just plug the cables into the connector so the red lines are on opposite sides. Of course this means you have to come up wiht 2 cables and 1 44-pin connector. So is it going to be running Ersatz-11 :^) Zane From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Mar 20 11:13:56 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: iOpener Message-ID: <20000320171356.2173.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Wilson wrote: > Mine just arrived this morning, I had ordered it from Netpliance's own > 800 # so evidently at least *they* still have stock even if CC doesn't > (suits me, the nearest CC is 1.5 hours away from me anyway). Good for you. I didn't want to pay the shipping and I can afford to wait a week or two. > In keeping with nerd tradition I've got the thing all in pieces before even > powering it on for the first time -- Way to go. > But the 44-pin connector is right there as promised. I'm thinking of maybe > doing a tiny PCB rather than soldering 44 individual wires on... There's great hack running around where you take a regular 44-pin cable that's long enough and attach a second connector immediately adjacent to the connector on one end. You use the inner pins of the end connector and the outer pins on the new connector to attach to the motherboard. ------------------- || |||| ^^ (use these "pins") drive end motherboard end Since one way to view the problem is that the motherboard connector is on the "wrong side" of the PCB (causing pin 1 to map to pin 2, etc), couldn't you do make a cable like this... || -------------------- || Wouldn't that simulate having a connector on the wrong side and reverse the effect of the motherboard wiring? > I wonder if there's a +12V source in here anywhere so that standard 40-pin > IDE drives could be used too and not just laptop drives? AFAIK, there is no ready source of 12V. Also, consider the power draw. A laptop drive pulls 500-700mA (2,5-3.5W), a desktop drive draws closer to 9W-15W. It's even a consideration when choosing a different CPU (ISTR the WinChip180 is rated at ~9W, most Pentia suck around 13-17W). -ethan ObClassic: there's plenty of space on the flash disk to stick a small OS and a variety of apps including Kermit. If you hacked the flash and disabled the hard disk (or had a way to specify the boot order), you could bring it up by default into a terminal program and use it as a console if it weren't running some other app. Yes, a dumb terminal is cheaper and probably more VT100 compliant (double-high characters spring to mind immediately), but a real DEC terminal is not as portable. ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 20 11:37:33 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: disk drives for iOpener Message-ID: <004401bf9292$f9f49720$7c483cd1@winbook> I recently ran onto a few 2-1/2" drives of 250 MB capacity and using only 5 volts. These are Quantum drives in case it makes a difference, and claim to use a maximum of 0.5 Amps. Are these big enough to interest you guys? I haven't been following this particular thread, hence haven't a clue. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 10:31 AM Subject: Re: iOpener > > >--- John Wilson wrote: >> Mine just arrived this morning, I had ordered it from Netpliance's own >> 800 # so evidently at least *they* still have stock even if CC doesn't >> (suits me, the nearest CC is 1.5 hours away from me anyway). > >Good for you. I didn't want to pay the shipping and I can afford to wait >a week or two. > >> In keeping with nerd tradition I've got the thing all in pieces before even >> powering it on for the first time -- > >Way to go. > >> But the 44-pin connector is right there as promised. I'm thinking of maybe >> doing a tiny PCB rather than soldering 44 individual wires on... > >There's great hack running around where you take a regular 44-pin cable >that's long enough and attach a second connector immediately adjacent to >the connector on one end. You use the inner pins of the end connector >and the outer pins on the new connector to attach to the motherboard. > > ------------------- > || |||| > ^^ (use these "pins") > drive end motherboard end > >Since one way to view the problem is that the motherboard connector is >on the "wrong side" of the PCB (causing pin 1 to map to pin 2, etc), >couldn't you do make a cable like this... > > || > -------------------- > || > >Wouldn't that simulate having a connector on the wrong side and reverse >the effect of the motherboard wiring? > >> I wonder if there's a +12V source in here anywhere so that standard 40-pin >> IDE drives could be used too and not just laptop drives? > >AFAIK, there is no ready source of 12V. Also, consider the power draw. A >laptop drive pulls 500-700mA (2,5-3.5W), a desktop drive draws closer to >9W-15W. It's even a consideration when choosing a different >CPU (ISTR the WinChip180 is rated at ~9W, most Pentia suck around 13-17W). > >-ethan > >ObClassic: there's plenty of space on the flash disk to stick a small OS >and a variety of apps including Kermit. If you hacked the flash and disabled >the hard disk (or had a way to specify the boot order), you could bring it >up by default into a terminal program and use it as a console if it weren't >running some other app. Yes, a dumb terminal is cheaper and probably more >VT100 compliant (double-high characters spring to mind immediately), but a >real DEC terminal is not as portable. > > > > >===== >Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to >vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com > >The original webpage address is still going away. The >permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ > >See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Mar 20 13:08:43 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <20000320171356.2173.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com>; from ethan_dicks@yahoo.com on Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 09:13:56AM -0800 References: <20000320171356.2173.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000320140843.A3324@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 09:13:56AM -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: > There's great hack running around where you take a regular 44-pin cable > that's long enough and attach a second connector immediately adjacent to > the connector on one end. You use the inner pins of the end connector > and the outer pins on the new connector to attach to the motherboard. > > ------------------- > || |||| > ^^ (use these "pins") > drive end motherboard end Cute! Well that sure beats slicing the cable up into 22 pairs and trying to get them stay down in the "twisted" position while you put on a connector. > || > -------------------- > || > > Wouldn't that simulate having a connector on the wrong side and reverse > the effect of the motherboard wiring? Unfortunately not, IDC connectors don't work that way. You'll just tap the same wires in different places, it's as if you took a regular cable and just folded one end over, nothing has changed. I remember confusing the hell out of myself with this the first time I tried to get a DZ11A cab kit working... > AFAIK, there is no ready source of 12V. Also, consider the power draw. A > laptop drive pulls 500-700mA (2,5-3.5W), a desktop drive draws closer to > 9W-15W. It's even a consideration when choosing a different > CPU (ISTR the WinChip180 is rated at ~9W, most Pentia suck around 13-17W). Yeah actually I was wondering if the laptop drive is already pushing things. The power supply is really tiny (integrated on the main board) and it's powered by a puny wall wart transformer, the label says 81VA but even that's hard to imagine given how light it is. > ObClassic: there's plenty of space on the flash disk to stick a small OS > and a variety of apps including Kermit. I was thinking, making a PCMCIA flash card adapter for the 44-pin cable wouldn't be hard at all, that might be another easy way to get stuff in and out. > If you hacked the flash and disabled > the hard disk (or had a way to specify the boot order), you could bring it > up by default into a terminal program and use it as a console if it weren't > running some other app. Yes, a dumb terminal is cheaper and probably more > VT100 compliant (double-high characters spring to mind immediately), but a > real DEC terminal is not as portable. Yeah I *wish* someone was making ASCII terminals like this box, it's perfect for one, at least part time. But the box has too much potential to actually *dedicate* your only one as being just a small/light VT100 replacement, which is sort of a shame. But I figure, even if the Netpliance folks close the loophole (which seems inevitable given all the press it's gotten) and we can't buy these boxes for $99.95 for much longer, the regular users will get tired of them eventually and there will be piles of them on eBay in a year or two, probably for even less than the $99.95. *That* will be the perfect time to put one on every flat surface in the whole house! Meanwhile, gotta get an order out to Digikey. John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 20 12:32:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <20000320171356.2173.qmail@web618.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 20, 0 09:13:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1042 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000320/f8987174/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 20 14:00:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <20000320140843.A3324@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Mar 20, 0 02:08:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1128 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000320/5bb924bf/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Mar 20 14:10:16 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: New drives in the M3100/M76 Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000320114507.026b31b0@mcmanis.com> Conclusions for the archives... It is entirely possible to put non-DEC third party drives in the VAXStation 3100/M76. I have recently installed two 2.1 GB "Barracuda" drives in them and they are working flawlessly. The steps are: Install the drive, select an ID that isn't being used on the SCSI bus. Run the PROM based formatter on the drive using "TEST 75" to the monitor. Install your software on the drive. On the M76 there is no requirement that the boot disk be smaller than 1GB (apparently this is true on earlier models). This looks like it will turn out to be a good NetBSD development machine as it is reasonably fast (7+ VUPs), and reasonably compact as VAXen go. --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 20 14:13:45 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: iOpener Message-ID: <000c01bf92a8$cbdecac0$4d483cd1@winbook> Do any of you fellows know of a ready/reasonable source of the 44-conductor connectors and cables used with notebook drives? I believe the spacing of the connector pins is 2mm. I need a limited about of this stuff and a few of the IDC connectors to be used at each end of the cable. The adapter I have for this drive type has a typical HD power connector on it along with an inline pc-mount connector that would also be of interest. Any suggestions? Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Wilson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 12:19 PM Subject: Re: iOpener >On Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 09:13:56AM -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> There's great hack running around where you take a regular 44-pin cable >> that's long enough and attach a second connector immediately adjacent to >> the connector on one end. You use the inner pins of the end connector >> and the outer pins on the new connector to attach to the motherboard. >> >> ------------------- >> || |||| >> ^^ (use these "pins") >> drive end motherboard end > >Cute! Well that sure beats slicing the cable up into 22 pairs and trying to >get them stay down in the "twisted" position while you put on a connector. > >> || >> -------------------- >> || >> >> Wouldn't that simulate having a connector on the wrong side and reverse >> the effect of the motherboard wiring? > >Unfortunately not, IDC connectors don't work that way. You'll just tap the >same wires in different places, it's as if you took a regular cable and just >folded one end over, nothing has changed. I remember confusing the hell out >of myself with this the first time I tried to get a DZ11A cab kit working... > >> AFAIK, there is no ready source of 12V. Also, consider the power draw. A >> laptop drive pulls 500-700mA (2,5-3.5W), a desktop drive draws closer to >> 9W-15W. It's even a consideration when choosing a different >> CPU (ISTR the WinChip180 is rated at ~9W, most Pentia suck around 13-17W). > >Yeah actually I was wondering if the laptop drive is already pushing things. >The power supply is really tiny (integrated on the main board) and it's >powered by a puny wall wart transformer, the label says 81VA but even that's >hard to imagine given how light it is. > >> ObClassic: there's plenty of space on the flash disk to stick a small OS >> and a variety of apps including Kermit. > >I was thinking, making a PCMCIA flash card adapter for the 44-pin cable >wouldn't be hard at all, that might be another easy way to get stuff in >and out. > >> If you hacked the flash and disabled >> the hard disk (or had a way to specify the boot order), you could bring it >> up by default into a terminal program and use it as a console if it weren't >> running some other app. Yes, a dumb terminal is cheaper and probably more >> VT100 compliant (double-high characters spring to mind immediately), but a >> real DEC terminal is not as portable. > >Yeah I *wish* someone was making ASCII terminals like this box, it's perfect >for one, at least part time. But the box has too much potential to actually >*dedicate* your only one as being just a small/light VT100 replacement, which >is sort of a shame. > >But I figure, even if the Netpliance folks close the loophole (which seems >inevitable given all the press it's gotten) and we can't buy these boxes for >$99.95 for much longer, the regular users will get tired of them eventually >and there will be piles of them on eBay in a year or two, probably for even >less than the $99.95. *That* will be the perfect time to put one on every >flat surface in the whole house! Meanwhile, gotta get an order out to Digikey. > >John Wilson >D Bit From andy.sporner at networkengines.com Mon Mar 20 14:15:32 2000 From: andy.sporner at networkengines.com (Andy Sporner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: New drives in the M3100/M76 Message-ID: <8D18C4F9CBA1D311900F00A0C990C97F06B15C@neiterm.networkengines.com> > It is entirely possible to put non-DEC third party drives in > the VAXStation 3100/M76. Maybe somebody can clarify something for me. I had an 3100/M38 a few years ago and had to buy a disk for it. At the time I bought a Quantum 210 MB drive. In order to use it with VMS I had to get a special utility that I ran from my PC with the drive and had to turn off the "Write-Preallocation" feature off on the drive. Is this strictly a VMS thing? From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Mar 20 14:21:18 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: iOpener Message-ID: <000320152118.2080074b@trailing-edge.com> >Oh, and don't get me started on RA60/RA80 cables. Those darn things work >by magic. What makes them even more magic is that the white ones are different than the black ones! Tim. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Mar 20 20:20:46 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: disk drives for iOpener In-Reply-To: <004401bf9292$f9f49720$7c483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: Hello Richard On 20-Mar-00, you wrote: > I recently ran onto a few 2-1/2" drives of 250 MB capacity and using only 5 > volts. These are Quantum drives in case it makes a difference, and claim to > use a maximum of 0.5 Amps. Are these big enough to interest you guys? I > haven't been following this particular thread, hence haven't a clue. > > Dick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 10:31 AM > Subject: Re: iOpener > > >> >> >> --- John Wilson wrote: >>> Mine just arrived this morning, I had ordered it from Netpliance's own >>> 800 # so evidently at least *they* still have stock even if CC doesn't >>> (suits me, the nearest CC is 1.5 hours away from me anyway). >> >> Good for you. I didn't want to pay the shipping and I can afford to wait >> a week or two. >> >>> In keeping with nerd tradition I've got the thing all in pieces before > even >>> powering it on for the first time -- >> >> Way to go. >> >>> But the 44-pin connector is right there as promised. I'm thinking of > maybe >>> doing a tiny PCB rather than soldering 44 individual wires on... >> >> There's great hack running around where you take a regular 44-pin cable >> that's long enough and attach a second connector immediately adjacent to >> the connector on one end. You use the inner pins of the end connector >> and the outer pins on the new connector to attach to the motherboard. >> >> ------------------- >> || |||| >> ^^ (use these "pins") >> drive end motherboard end >> >> Since one way to view the problem is that the motherboard connector is >> on the "wrong side" of the PCB (causing pin 1 to map to pin 2, etc), >> couldn't you do make a cable like this... >> >> || >> -------------------- >> || >> >> Wouldn't that simulate having a connector on the wrong side and reverse >> the effect of the motherboard wiring? >> >>> I wonder if there's a +12V source in here anywhere so that standard > 40-pin >>> IDE drives could be used too and not just laptop drives? >> >> AFAIK, there is no ready source of 12V. Also, consider the power draw. A >> laptop drive pulls 500-700mA (2,5-3.5W), a desktop drive draws closer to >> 9W-15W. It's even a consideration when choosing a different >> CPU (ISTR the WinChip180 is rated at ~9W, most Pentia suck around 13-17W). >> >> -ethan >> >> ObClassic: there's plenty of space on the flash disk to stick a small OS >> and a variety of apps including Kermit. If you hacked the flash and > disabled >> the hard disk (or had a way to specify the boot order), you could bring it >> up by default into a terminal program and use it as a console if it weren't >> running some other app. Yes, a dumb terminal is cheaper and probably more >> VT100 compliant (double-high characters spring to mind immediately), but a >> real DEC terminal is not as portable. >> >> >> >> >> ===== >> Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to >> vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com >> >> The original webpage address is still going away. The >> permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ >> >> See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >> http://im.yahoo.com > These drives are ideal for those of us who have Amiga 600/1200. Email me as I am going to St Louis for an Amiga convention and can sell them PDQ. Gary Hildebrand From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 20 15:42:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:15 2005 Subject: New drives in the M3100/M76 In-Reply-To: <8D18C4F9CBA1D311900F00A0C990C97F06B15C@neiterm.networkengines.com> Message-ID: I tried a quantum SCSI I had (120mb) for laughs and it works fine after test-75, same for a bunch of other brands, some only needed to be "init" from VMS to be useable. I have no clue as to the fuss. I have: 1 3100/m76 3 3100/m10e None seems to have much problem with anything I have floating around for disks save for the 1gb limit on the /m10s for bootable system disks. Allison On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, Andy Sporner wrote: > > > It is entirely possible to put non-DEC third party drives in > > the VAXStation 3100/M76. > > Maybe somebody can clarify something for me. I had an 3100/M38 > a few years ago and had to buy a disk for it. At the time I > bought a Quantum 210 MB drive. In order to use it with VMS > I had to get a special utility that I ran from my PC with the > drive and had to turn off the "Write-Preallocation" feature > off on the drive. > > Is this strictly a VMS thing? > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Mar 20 15:43:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <000c01bf92a8$cbdecac0$4d483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: Hit the web pages, there are vendors listed there. I believe Digikey was one of them. Allison On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Do any of you fellows know of a ready/reasonable source of the 44-conductor > connectors and cables used with notebook drives? I believe the spacing of > the connector pins is 2mm. I need a limited about of this stuff and a few > of the IDC connectors to be used at each end of the cable. The adapter I > have for this drive type has a typical HD power connector on it along with > an inline pc-mount connector that would also be of interest. > > Any suggestions? > > Dick > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Wilson > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 12:19 PM > Subject: Re: iOpener > > > >On Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 09:13:56AM -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> There's great hack running around where you take a regular 44-pin cable > >> that's long enough and attach a second connector immediately adjacent to > >> the connector on one end. You use the inner pins of the end connector > >> and the outer pins on the new connector to attach to the motherboard. > >> > >> ------------------- > >> || |||| > >> ^^ (use these "pins") > >> drive end motherboard end > > > >Cute! Well that sure beats slicing the cable up into 22 pairs and trying > to > >get them stay down in the "twisted" position while you put on a connector. > > > >> || > >> -------------------- > >> || > >> > >> Wouldn't that simulate having a connector on the wrong side and reverse > >> the effect of the motherboard wiring? > > > >Unfortunately not, IDC connectors don't work that way. You'll just tap the > >same wires in different places, it's as if you took a regular cable and > just > >folded one end over, nothing has changed. I remember confusing the hell > out > >of myself with this the first time I tried to get a DZ11A cab kit > working... > > > >> AFAIK, there is no ready source of 12V. Also, consider the power draw. > A > >> laptop drive pulls 500-700mA (2,5-3.5W), a desktop drive draws closer to > >> 9W-15W. It's even a consideration when choosing a different > >> CPU (ISTR the WinChip180 is rated at ~9W, most Pentia suck around > 13-17W). > > > >Yeah actually I was wondering if the laptop drive is already pushing > things. > >The power supply is really tiny (integrated on the main board) and it's > >powered by a puny wall wart transformer, the label says 81VA but even > that's > >hard to imagine given how light it is. > > > >> ObClassic: there's plenty of space on the flash disk to stick a small OS > >> and a variety of apps including Kermit. > > > >I was thinking, making a PCMCIA flash card adapter for the 44-pin cable > >wouldn't be hard at all, that might be another easy way to get stuff in > >and out. > > > >> If you hacked the flash and disabled > >> the hard disk (or had a way to specify the boot order), you could bring > it > >> up by default into a terminal program and use it as a console if it > weren't > >> running some other app. Yes, a dumb terminal is cheaper and probably > more > >> VT100 compliant (double-high characters spring to mind immediately), but > a > >> real DEC terminal is not as portable. > > > >Yeah I *wish* someone was making ASCII terminals like this box, it's > perfect > >for one, at least part time. But the box has too much potential to > actually > >*dedicate* your only one as being just a small/light VT100 replacement, > which > >is sort of a shame. > > > >But I figure, even if the Netpliance folks close the loophole (which seems > >inevitable given all the press it's gotten) and we can't buy these boxes > for > >$99.95 for much longer, the regular users will get tired of them eventually > >and there will be piles of them on eBay in a year or two, probably for even > >less than the $99.95. *That* will be the perfect time to put one on every > >flat surface in the whole house! Meanwhile, gotta get an order out to > Digikey. > > > >John Wilson > >D Bit > From andy.sporner at networkengines.com Mon Mar 20 15:46:29 2000 From: andy.sporner at networkengines.com (Andy Sporner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: New drives in the M3100/M76 Message-ID: <8D18C4F9CBA1D311900F00A0C990C97F06B15E@neiterm.networkengines.com> Thanks Allison, It has been a while since this--and I don't even have the machine anymore, but I guess I can consider this debunked. At the time it was VMS-5.5.4. I was using the machine as an X-terminal for want of it running real-X. (http://www.sporner.com/personal/andy_01.jpg sitting on it's side next to my big Sequent server). Thanks again! Andy > -----Original Message----- > From: allisonp@world.std.com [mailto:allisonp@world.std.com] > Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 4:42 PM > To: Andy Sporner > Cc: 'Chuck McManis'; port-vax@netbsd.org; classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: New drives in the M3100/M76 > > > I tried a quantum SCSI I had (120mb) for laughs and it works > fine after > test-75, same for a bunch of other brands, some only needed > to be "init" > from VMS to be useable. I have no clue as to the fuss. I have: > > 1 3100/m76 > 3 3100/m10e > > None seems to have much problem with anything I have floating > around for > disks save for the 1gb limit on the /m10s for bootable system disks. > > Allison > > > > > On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, Andy Sporner wrote: > > > > > > It is entirely possible to put non-DEC third party drives in > > > the VAXStation 3100/M76. > > > > Maybe somebody can clarify something for me. I had an 3100/M38 > > a few years ago and had to buy a disk for it. At the time I > > bought a Quantum 210 MB drive. In order to use it with VMS > > I had to get a special utility that I ran from my PC with the > > drive and had to turn off the "Write-Preallocation" feature > > off on the drive. > > > > Is this strictly a VMS thing? > > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Mar 20 16:18:01 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: ram chip crossreference? In-Reply-To: <200003201540.KAA02761@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: For years I have been squinting at the numbers on ram chips trying to devine the capacity of Simms dredged from boxes of scrap, and I do "ok", but I was thinking somebody must have a nice complete crossreference of all the chip numbers. I do well enough in weeding out the worthless 256k SIMMs, but stumble often enough with 1 MB vs 4 MB. What I could really use is a list of all the part numbers for chips used to make the 4 MB simms (if its not a 4 MB, most likely its a 1 MB and can just be tossed in a bin.). Any tips? BTW I have sorted a few hundred simms, so I do know the "basics" of chip ID. Some parts guide must have a good crossreference though. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 20 15:32:37 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: DEC RAxx drive In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <20000320213237.18261.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Oh, and don't get me started on RA60/RA80 cables. Those darn things work > by magic. What's magic about them? I just got some RA drives (along with a VAX-11/785 containing a UDA50), and don't know anything about the cabling. I have both DEC RA drives and some System Industries clones. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 20 16:44:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: DEC RAxx drive In-Reply-To: <20000320213237.18261.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Mar 20, 0 09:32:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 576 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000320/3a450b2a/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Mon Mar 20 17:41:34 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: NIC-80 In-Reply-To: <200003141822.KAA02309@siconic.com> Message-ID: <200003202341.PAA23813@civic.hal.com> Hi Sam I was wondering if I could come up to your house some evening this week to get the NIC-80 stuff you have to copy. I've been playing with the NIC-80 I have but I've run out of experiments to do ( Not really but a 20 bit words has a lot of combinations ). I've found all 12K of RAM. One 4K block starts at address 0 and the rest starts at 32K. I don't think I can wait until Stan gets around to getting another meeting going and I don't what to disturb you too much while you are learning your Deutsch lessons. Dwight From elvey at hal.com Mon Mar 20 17:52:46 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: NIC-80 In-Reply-To: <200003202341.PAA23813@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <200003202352.PAA23949@civic.hal.com> Oops Sent to the wrong address Dwight Dwight Elvey wrote: > Hi Sam > I was wondering if I could come up to your house From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Mar 20 17:54:21 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: ram chip crossreference? In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Mar 20, 2000 02:18:01 pm" Message-ID: <200003202354.RAA14630@caesar.cs.umn.edu> www.thechipmerchant.com used to have a web page with all this information on it, it was extremely useful. But I havent been able to find that page for about a year now. They had the chips listed in tables by manufacturer and chip number, and then listed the number of bits of ram in that chip, for example 1Mx4 If someone still has this information, please pass it along. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu > For years I have been squinting at the numbers on ram chips trying to > devine the capacity of Simms dredged from boxes of scrap, and I do "ok", > but I was thinking somebody must have a nice complete crossreference of all > the chip numbers. > > I do well enough in weeding out the worthless 256k SIMMs, but stumble often > enough with 1 MB vs 4 MB. What I could really use is a list of all the part > numbers for chips used to make the 4 MB simms (if its not a 4 MB, most > likely its a 1 MB and can just be tossed in a bin.). Any tips? > > BTW I have sorted a few hundred simms, so I do know the "basics" of chip > ID. Some parts guide must have a good crossreference though. > > From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Mon Mar 20 18:24:28 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: iOpener Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F06F6FF72@ALFEXC5> I just brought one home -- it was an "open box" buy from Circuit City -- $79.95! I haven't plugged it in yet, but I will later this evening... -- Tony > ---------- > From: John Wilson[SMTP:wilson@dbit.dbit.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 10:40 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: iOpener > > Mine just arrived this morning, I had ordered it from Netpliance's own > 800 # so evidently at least *they* still have stock even if CC doesn't > (suits me, the nearest CC is 1.5 hours away from me anyway). > > In keeping with nerd tradition I've got the thing all in pieces before > even > powering it on for the first time -- boy they sure didn't skimp on screws! > But the 44-pin connector is right there as promised. I'm thinking of > maybe > doing a tiny PCB rather than soldering 44 individual wires on, I wonder if > there's a +12V source in hear anywhere so that standard 40-pin IDE drives > could > be used too and not just laptop drives? The case is *really* cramped > though. > > John Wilson > D Bit > From thompson at mail.athenet.net Mon Mar 20 18:26:06 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: New drives in the M3100/M76 Message-ID: I also had problems with a IBM 0661 disk. I was unable to get it to 512 byte sectors from 524/sector using either RZDISK (VMS) or TEST 75 on my 3100-M76. I was able to format it on my RS/6000-220 using the diag program's service aids/disk media service aid/format disk option in AIX. Although there were no command parameters and no information from AIX on what is was doing, when it was done the disk was reformatted to 512 bytes and I was able to use the disk on the VAX and later make a spare bootable unix system disk on my DEC mips machine. Perhaps the IBM format also turned off the "target initiated sync negotiation" for AIX in the saved config code page in the drive. Paul On Mon, 20 Mar 2000 jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > Run the PROM based formatter on the drive using "TEST 75" to the > monitor. I never did this and had no problems connecting various disks > from Fujitsu, Seagate, Quantum, IBM (including a 1,8GB 0664), ... to a > VS3100m76. The only problematic disk I found is the IBM 0661. This > disk is knowen to be problematic due to the SCSI implementation of the > firmeware of the disk. (e.g. target initiated sync negotiation) -- From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Mar 20 18:38:30 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: DEC RAxx drive References: Message-ID: <003c01bf92cd$c894a900$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 9:14 AM Subject: Re: DEC RAxx drive > OK, as I understand it... > > Black cables do a mirror flip between the 2 ends. White cables don't. > > Bulkhead adapters (obviously) do a mirror flip. > Now what I can't remember is whether you need a mirror flip between the > controller and the drive (-> an odd number total of bulkheads and black > cables) or not. What I can remember is that whatever combination you have > doesn't work :-), and it's necessary to swap cable types until it does. I've never actually had a problem with this. My cabinets come out to ports on the bulkhead of the cabinet. (RA7x and RA9x drives, - same for RA82's when I was still running them. They are, (rummage, rummage) uh, ok, the connectors for the SA70 enclosures that hold the RA7x drives are a white cable with a 37 pin d connector that fans out to 4 SDI bulkhead connectors. I put a black cable from there to either a KDB50 or the HSC70 and they work. The RA8x drive cabinet cables are black, and go to a bulkhead connector. Black from there to the HSC or KDB50 works. I have another RA9x cabinet at home but I *think* it has white cables in it, I'll take a look later. Black cable from there to the HSC or KDB50. ISTR that I have also gone direct from an RA90 with a black cable to a KDB50, and that worked too. Are you not holding your mouth at the correct angle? ;^) I've tried to make sense of the cable part no's, but there seems to be several (length is a factor obviously) different numbers and it's hard to tell what's what. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 20 19:50:23 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: OT: Re: iOpener In-Reply-To: <000c01bf92a8$cbdecac0$4d483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: How about joining two cables using a 2-by-22 header? __________________II II || ___________________II II Plugging the two cables into opposite sides of the 2-by header connects pin one of one cable to pin 2 of the other and vice-versa, etc., providing the undo needed for the reversed connector. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Mar 20 20:22:55 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 08:00:39PM +0000 References: <20000320140843.A3324@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000320212255.A4969@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 08:00:39PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: [re DZ11A] > That last > cable has one connector that connects to the wires in a different order > to do a second 'mirror flip'. Yeah, that's the bastard!! I went back and forth a bunch of times to Heffron's (where I bought the DZ) trying to sort this out, they started talking about a "mirror image" cable but I forget whether they ever actually produced one, or maybe I just bypassed the noise supressor brick. That was after I removed the IDC connector and recrimped it on the other side, thinking it would help, but of course nothing changed. The whole thing was a huge pain, especially considering I paid $675 for the DZ11A! In 1985 that is, it cost me most of a summer's work to get a board which is free these days. My 11/34a had an EIA DZ in it when I bid on it but the weasels pulled it out and sold it right before I picked the machine up, none of this should have ever happened! John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Mar 20 20:25:53 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <000c01bf92a8$cbdecac0$4d483cd1@winbook>; from edick@idcomm.com on Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 01:13:45PM -0700 References: <000c01bf92a8$cbdecac0$4d483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: <20000320212553.B4969@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 01:13:45PM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Do any of you fellows know of a ready/reasonable source of the 44-conductor > connectors and cables used with notebook drives? I believe the spacing of > the connector pins is 2mm. Digikey sells it, but it seems they're backordered on the AMP brand for about a week, all they have is the 3M equivalent which costs 5x as much. I just changed my order to the 3M stuff and now I'm kicking myself because I forgot to ask whether they had the AMP version in 50 conductors, I'd be happy to unzip the last 6 conductors and save myself $30!!! Geez. John Wilson D Bit From sms at antinode.org Mon Mar 20 19:57:43 2000 From: sms at antinode.org (sms@antinode.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: New drives in the M3100/M76 Message-ID: <00032019574354@antinode.org> From: Chuck McManis > Conclusions for the archives... > [...] VAXStation 3100/M76 [...] > On the M76 there is no requirement that the boot disk be smaller than 1GB > (apparently this is true on earlier models). It depends on what you mean by required. According to the VMS FAQ ("ftp://ftp.digital.com/pub/Digital/dec-faq/OpenVMS.txt", topic VAX5, "What system disk size limit on the MicroVAX and VAXstation 3100?"): [...] Systems that are affected by this limit: o VAXstation 3100 series, all members. No PROM upgrade is available. =========== [...] Generally, as I understand it, the corruption results from the firmware writing to a too-large disk, as when a crash dump file is written. As the firmware on these machines mentions both ULTRIX and VMS, I assume that it is comparably adept at wrapping around at the 1.07GB limit and corrupting a disk with either style file system. Disks larger than this limit are fine as data disks. (I have a 4GB disk in my model 38, for example.) They also work fine as system/boot disks, until something goes wrong, and the corruption occurs. (I boot my model 38 from a smaller, safer disk.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda (+1) 651-699-9818 (voice, home) 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 763-781-0308 (voice, work) Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 (+1) 763-781-0309 (facsimile, work) sms@antinode.org sms@provis.com (work) From paulrsm at ameritech.net Mon Mar 20 21:07:59 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Motorola software for IBM 370 Message-ID: <20000321031326.MLLT4547.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> I am still trying to track down the Motorola structured assembler for 68000. I found another lead in a 1983 Motorola software catalog. Motorola had the assembler, linker, and Pascal compiler available as "Pascal source code for the IBM 370 with Pascal VS2 on 9 track tape" (but the requirements said "any operating system with FORTRAN"). Do any big iron folks have this? Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net From paulrsm at ameritech.net Mon Mar 20 20:58:07 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: disk drives for iOpener/Amiga Message-ID: <20000321031320.MLLI4547.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> I have a few similar drives, but I am also considering getting an Amiga 1200 just to run Deluxe Paint. Is it an easy install into a hard-disk-less Amiga 1200? ---------- > From: Gary Hildebrand > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org; Dave Libby > Subject: Re: disk drives for iOpener > Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 09:20 PM > These drives are ideal for those of us who have Amiga 600/1200. Email me as > I am going to St Louis for an Amiga convention and can sell them PDQ. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 20 22:32:14 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: iOpener Message-ID: <000a01bf92ee$6f2aa240$5c483cd1@winbook> I'm not certain I know which of the items on my list you're referring to , but I've learned that I have only five drives to deal with, so I'm not worrying about making a board at this juncture. I've got to adapt from two fairly standard connectors, i.e. 40-pin IDE and +12, 2x GND, +5, of which the +12 isn't needed, to that 44-pin connector on the notebook drives. The best arrangement I've seen is is a dual-row by 22 with short soldertails sticking strainght out from the connector in such a way as to facilitate soldering to a 2-sided PCB. That, at this point would work for me. I have an adapter between the two connector types but that's just a mite too large for my application, particularly since it restricts my ability to mount the drive such that it's centered on the PCB, half protruding through the top of the board and half through the bottom so as to avoid interference with the adjacent cards. So, John, did you find they were back-ordered on the ribbon cable? Since I'm in no hurry, perhaps it doesn't make much difference. You're right about the suitability of 50-conductor ribbon, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Wilson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, March 20, 2000 7:34 PM Subject: Re: iOpener >On Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 01:13:45PM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> Do any of you fellows know of a ready/reasonable source of the 44-conductor >> connectors and cables used with notebook drives? I believe the spacing of >> the connector pins is 2mm. > >Digikey sells it, but it seems they're backordered on the AMP brand for >about a week, all they have is the 3M equivalent which costs 5x as much. >I just changed my order to the 3M stuff and now I'm kicking myself because >I forgot to ask whether they had the AMP version in 50 conductors, I'd be >happy to unzip the last 6 conductors and save myself $30!!! Geez. > >John Wilson >D Bit From donm at cts.com Mon Mar 20 23:08:00 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Renex TMS-three Communications Controller Message-ID: Is anyone interested in acquiring this rack mount communications controller in new condition with manual and disks. A very casual reading of the manual suggests that it is intended to provide access to IBM and compatible machines including Systems 360/370/3 as well as 4300, 8100, system 36 and AS/400. Communications protocols include Synchronous, SDLC, SNA, BISYNC, X.25, and 3270 Emulation. I would like to get at least $20 plus 1.2 x shipping for it, else I will strip it and send the metal off for recycling. In any event, it is gone by the end of March! -don From Bob.Yates at amana.com Mon Mar 20 23:55:36 2000 From: Bob.Yates at amana.com (Bob Yates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: iOpener Message-ID: <37fed7bc.200200@amcn-smtp.amana.com> Available at Circuit City in Little Rock, as of Friday! From jsowden at americansentry.net Mon Mar 20 23:55:09 2000 From: jsowden at americansentry.net (John Sowden) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Mac to Bernoulli Cable Message-ID: <002e01bf92fa$046e9ae0$c62115d1@president> I am looking for a cable to attach a Mac SE (DB25?) to an 8" Bernoulli Drive (Amphenol?) John Sowden American Sentry Systems, Inc. 1221 Andersen Drive San Rafael, CA 94901 (415) 457-2622 Voice (415) 457-2624 FAX "Serving the San Francisco Bay Area" jsowden@americansentry.net http://www.americansentry.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000320/48a9b586/attachment.html From macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl Mon Mar 20 23:48:09 2000 From: macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl (Maciej S Szymanski) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: New drives in the M3100/M76 References: Message-ID: <38D70D19.25959C61@pzl-okecie.com.pl> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > None seems to have much problem with anything I have floating around for > disks save for the 1gb limit on the /m10s for bootable system disks. I've 540Meg Fujitsu boot disk in my 3100 M48 there was no problem with instalation and booting (as with two other 3rd party drives - 340Meg and 170Meg Quantums). I've tried with VMS 5.4.2 (installed from SA backup) and now with OpenVMS 7.2 installed from original CD. Maciek From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Mar 21 00:37:01 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: GRiD 2270s Message-ID: <20000321003701.B15257@mrbill.net> Anybody know where I can get info on these? I picked up 3 of them today, complete with batteries, but no power supplies or pens (they can be used as a "flat pad" mode, with a pen, or the screen flips up to reveal the keyboard). Any info would be appreciated. Bill -- +---------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | +-------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------+-----------------------------------------+ | Version: 3.12 GCS d- s:++ a- C++++ US++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ N++ o K+++ w--- | | O- M-- V- PS PE+ Y+ PGP t+ 5 X- R-- tv+++ b++++ DI++++ D++ G++ e++ h r++ y+ | +--------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------------------------------------------+ From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Mar 21 00:49:50 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <000a01bf92ee$6f2aa240$5c483cd1@winbook>; from edick@idcomm.com on Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 09:32:14PM -0700 References: <000a01bf92ee$6f2aa240$5c483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: <20000321014950.A5807@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 09:32:14PM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > So, John, did you find they were back-ordered on the ribbon cable? Since > I'm in no hurry, perhaps it doesn't make much difference. You're right > about the suitability of 50-conductor ribbon, though. Guh! I'm sorry, yes the ribbon cable was what I meant. Digikey is out of the AM44G-x-ND cable (which was 10' for $5.68), but they do have the MC44L-x-ND (which is 5m for $34.58!!! definitely worth waiting the week if you can stand it). The AMP 50-conductor cable would be AM50G-x-ND (where x is length in feet, 5/10/25/50/100/500), but when I called back to try to change, my order had already gone out, so I didn't press them to find out whether it's in stock. Since it requires a human to cut it to order, the web site automatically lists it as back-ordered whether it's in stock or not. They have the 44-pin IDC connectors too. The AMP is ASA44K-ND for $3.54, the 3M is MSA44A-ND for $4.47. Hard to tell from the sketches, but the 3Ms look to be smaller, which would be a good thing since the iOpener is so cramped inside. I deleted an earlier post before its Deep Inner Beauty sunk in, who was it that suggested switching the conductors by simply using two separate ribbon cables with a straight-through header between them? I like it! (Trying to figure out whether it would work makes my head hurt, but I think you're right.) Looks like a regular through-hole PCB header might even work, the solder tail end is only 0.85 mm shorter than the business end, according to the sketches in the Digikey catalog. Really stupid question: there's no BIOS support yet to make USB devices bootable, is there? Using a USB Zip as the system disk would sure save some trouble here, if only they weren't such a pain to program... John Wilson D Bit From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Mar 21 01:14:10 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: GRiD 2270s In-Reply-To: <20000321003701.B15257@mrbill.net>; from Bill Bradford on Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 12:37:01AM -0600 References: <20000321003701.B15257@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20000321001410.A24030@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 12:37:01AM -0600, Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody know where I can get info on these? I picked up 3 of them today, > complete with batteries, but no power supplies or pens (they can be used as > a "flat pad" mode, with a pen, or the screen flips up to reveal the keyboard). If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's a 386, and I think the pen is an RF type, not sure if it's the kind that requires batteries. The one like this that I saw with the flip-up screen was labeled AST, but that's because they bought GRiD. I think they still support them, so if all else fails maybe you can get pens from them. I'm not sure if it's compatible with other powered pens like the Dauphin one. I might be interested in buying or trading for one of them. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Mar 21 01:19:36 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: GRiD 2270s In-Reply-To: <20000321003701.B15257@mrbill.net>; from Bill Bradford on Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 12:37:01AM -0600 References: <20000321003701.B15257@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20000321001936.B24030@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> See also www.pd.com/GRiD.html (but I can't get there right now, looks like the site is down). On Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 12:37:01AM -0600, Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody know where I can get info on these? I picked up 3 of them today, > complete with batteries, but no power supplies or pens (they can be used as > a "flat pad" mode, with a pen, or the screen flips up to reveal the keyboard). > > Any info would be appreciated. > > Bill > > -- > +---------------+-------------------+ > | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | > +-------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------+-----------------------------------------+ > | Version: 3.12 GCS d- s:++ a- C++++ US++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ N++ o K+++ w--- | > | O- M-- V- PS PE+ Y+ PGP t+ 5 X- R-- tv+++ b++++ DI++++ D++ G++ e++ h r++ y+ | > +--------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------------------------------------------+ -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Mar 21 03:13:14 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: GRiD stuff Message-ID: <20000321031314.L15257@mrbill.net> I've got a GRIDcase 1530 here, with no power supply. I tried using one of the cheap 9.95 "multi-voltage, multi-attachment" generic power supplies I have here (use it to charge my mavica battery). Power supply's max is 12V. The GRiD says 16V, but someone told me they'll run off of 12V (automotive voltage) too. When I plug it in and hit the switch, the status lights above the keyboard flash on and off rapidly (continuously) in conjunction with a "ticking" noise. My guess is, the power supply isnt up to snuff with what the laptop wants. Anybody got a power supply (and/or an entire system WITH power supply) for a 1530 for sale? In fact, I'd be interested in ANY GRiD hardware that anybody on this list has for sale. Bill -- +---------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | +-------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------+-----------------------------------------+ | Version: 3.12 GCS d- s:++ a- C++++ US++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ N++ o K+++ w--- | | O- M-- V- PS PE+ Y+ PGP t+ 5 X- R-- tv+++ b++++ DI++++ D++ G++ e++ h r++ y+ | +--------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------------------------------------------+ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 20 17:11:06 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Mos Technology RAM wanted In-Reply-To: John Honniball "Re: Mos Technology RAM wanted" (Mar 20, 13:23) References: Message-ID: <10003202311.ZM9500@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 20, 13:23, John Honniball wrote: > > On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:28:09 GMT Pete Turnbull wrote: > > One of the MCS6550 RAMs has gone west. Does anyone have a spare, or an > > equivalent, for sale? It's a 22-pin 1024 x 4 200ns static RAM. > > I'll have to check the RAMs in the spare PET that I > keep in the garage. Can't remember whether they're SRAMs > or DRAMs in the bigger PETs. Only the oldest 2001-x PETs use those SRAMs. I guess it's time to build that upgrade board (a PAL, a pair of EPROMS, and some 6264s, a 62256, or some cast-off PC cache). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 20 07:24:25 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Mos Technology RAM wanted In-Reply-To: "Will Jennings" "Re: Mos Technology RAM wanted" (Mar 19, 17:42) References: <20000320004247.89074.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <10003201324.ZM9124@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 19, 17:42, Will Jennings wrote: > Pete, > Umm is that the same as a Motorola 6665BP20, which I know is 200ns... > If so I can help you. No, unfortunately they're about as different as you could get, for that era. MCS6550 is 22-pin 0.4" wide static 1k x 4; MCM6665 is 16-pin 0.3" wide dynamic 64k x 1. Thanks for the offer, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Mar 21 04:06:49 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Mac to Bernoulli Cable In-Reply-To: <002e01bf92fa$046e9ae0$c62115d1@president> Message-ID: > I am looking for a cable to attach a Mac SE (DB25?) to an 8" >Bernoulli Drive (Amphenol?) John Sowden Chances are I have it, but I don't know what it is. The SE SCSI port is DB25F (so the cable is DB25M), explain the other connector in more detail. The three common ends are; DB25M, most older mac SCSI devices. Centrontics50M, most SCSI devices. HD (high density) C50M, compaq and some sony. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Mar 21 10:38:47 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Mac to Bernoulli Cable In-Reply-To: <002e01bf92fa$046e9ae0$c62115d1@president> Message-ID: Hello John On 20-Mar-00, you wrote: > I am looking for a cable to attach a Mac SE (DB25?) to an 8" Bernoulli Drive (Amphenol?) > > John Sowden > American Sentry Systems, Inc. > 1221 Andersen Drive > San Rafael, CA 94901 > (415) 457-2622 Voice > (415) 457-2624 FAX > "Serving the San Francisco Bay Area" > jsowden@americansentry.net > http://www.americansentry.net > is this the standard SCSI 50 pin Centronics style (Ampehnol Blue Ribbon)? Should be readily available -- Mac to SCSI-1 cable. Gary Hildebrand From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Mar 21 08:35:58 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Mac to Bernoulli Cable In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Mar 21, 2000 02:06:49 am" Message-ID: <200003211436.JAA07376@bg-tc-ppp814.monmouth.com> > > I am looking for a cable to attach a Mac SE (DB25?) to an 8" > >Bernoulli Drive (Amphenol?) John Sowden > > Chances are I have it, but I don't know what it is. The SE SCSI port is > DB25F (so the cable is DB25M), explain the other connector in more detail. > The three common ends are; > > DB25M, most older mac SCSI devices. > Centrontics50M, most SCSI devices. > HD (high density) C50M, compaq and some sony. > Anyone know anything about Centronics to DB50 pin typecables having problems with termination or termpower on Suns... Was there multiple versions of the 50 pin pinout in the early days. Symptoms -- hung scsi bus on Sparcstations... inability to probe SCSI when used. Bill From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Mar 21 09:41:29 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Mac to Bernoulli Cable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If it is a db25m-->centronics50m (scsi I), I've got an extra 6' cable I could send you. Aaron On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > > I am looking for a cable to attach a Mac SE (DB25?) to an 8" > >Bernoulli Drive (Amphenol?) John Sowden > > Chances are I have it, but I don't know what it is. The SE SCSI port is > DB25F (so the cable is DB25M), explain the other connector in more detail. > The three common ends are; > > DB25M, most older mac SCSI devices. > Centrontics50M, most SCSI devices. > HD (high density) C50M, compaq and some sony. > > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Mar 21 09:45:30 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Mac to Bernoulli Cable In-Reply-To: <200003211436.JAA07376@bg-tc-ppp814.monmouth.com> Message-ID: Bill, This is a HD50 to SCSI I cable? I've got one that I could test on a Sparc here and send out to you to test your systems with. If you suspect a HW problem, I also have a dead Sparc 1+ that you could use for parts... Aaron On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > I am looking for a cable to attach a Mac SE (DB25?) to an 8" > > >Bernoulli Drive (Amphenol?) John Sowden > > > > Chances are I have it, but I don't know what it is. The SE SCSI port is > > DB25F (so the cable is DB25M), explain the other connector in more detail. > > The three common ends are; > > > > DB25M, most older mac SCSI devices. > > Centrontics50M, most SCSI devices. > > HD (high density) C50M, compaq and some sony. > > > > Anyone know anything about Centronics to DB50 pin typecables having problems > with termination or termpower on Suns... > > Was there multiple versions of the 50 pin pinout in the early days. > > Symptoms -- hung scsi bus on Sparcstations... inability to probe SCSI > when used. > > Bill > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Mar 21 09:51:28 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Mos Technology RAM wanted Message-ID: <001f01bf934d$56ab6060$6d483cd1@winbook> I think the basic number you're looking for is "2101" from the same 1K series as the famous "2102" which is a 16-pin 1kx1 with separate in and out. The 2101's I have are not fast enough to meet the 200ns spec. However, not much of anything that was readily available at the time the PET model 2001 came out was that fast. Either it was quite a bit faster, e.g. 2147, 2115, etc, or it was slower, e.g. 2114, 21L02, TMS4044 etc, which were typically 450 ns at that point in time. Those 450 ns parts worked handsomely with the 1 MHz 6502. Perhaps you'd be able to use a 2101. Let me know if you think that might work for you. I've had my small supply (maybe 4 pieces) since back in '76-'77 when I got my original 6501, though I've never used them for anything. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 2:39 AM Subject: Re: Mos Technology RAM wanted >On Mar 20, 13:23, John Honniball wrote: >> >> On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:28:09 GMT Pete Turnbull > wrote: > >> > One of the MCS6550 RAMs has gone west. Does anyone have a spare, or an >> > equivalent, for sale? It's a 22-pin 1024 x 4 200ns static RAM. >> >> I'll have to check the RAMs in the spare PET that I >> keep in the garage. Can't remember whether they're SRAMs >> or DRAMs in the bigger PETs. > >Only the oldest 2001-x PETs use those SRAMs. I guess it's time to build >that upgrade board (a PAL, a pair of EPROMS, and some 6264s, a 62256, or >some cast-off PC cache). > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Mar 21 10:02:23 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <20000321014950.A5807@dbit.dbit.com>; from wilson@dbit.dbit.com on Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 01:49:50AM -0500 References: <000a01bf92ee$6f2aa240$5c483cd1@winbook> <20000321014950.A5807@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000321110223.A7801@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 01:49:50AM -0500, I wrote: > I deleted an earlier post before its Deep Inner Beauty sunk in, who was > it that suggested switching the conductors by simply using two separate > ribbon cables with a straight-through header between them? I like it! It was Fred Cisin -- good thinking Fred!!! This is *much* simpler than what I was going to do, and it sure beats doing individual wires. I accidentally swapped layers on an ISA PCB once, and tried to get it running anyway by hanging a huge hank of wire wrap wire off of an extender board and soldering it to the edge fingers on the bad PCB, it took forever and evidently I messed up at least a wire or two because I never did get the darn thing working, had to get a fresh PCB made instead in a hurry at great expense (fortunately my boss was a good sport about it). This is almost as many conductors... John Wilson D Bit From edick at idcomm.com Tue Mar 21 10:06:29 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Mac to Bernoulli Cable Message-ID: <000601bf934f$6bad9260$6d483cd1@winbook> The Bernoulli drives I have are all more or less the same, irrespective of their generation. The PC interface card.cable uses a 37-pin (DC37) sub-D connector and that's essentially a SCSI cable with the unused conductors omitted. This makes for fewer conductors in the cable, but, if you look inside the drive, the attachment to the controller is via a 50-conductor ribbon cable, an adapter to which is attached to the bulkead at the rear of the box. The interconnections between the drives are 50-conductor ribbon, and, depending on the generation of the hardware, but for most of the 10 MB 8" drives, the controller is generally a separate card to which the drives attached. It is more or less standard SCSI, though it doesn't work well with other adapters or with ASPI drivers under DOS. I doubt the MAC uses different internal hardware or cabling, though the BERNOULLI drives hung on for a longer time in the MAC environment because of the MAC's smaller size requirement. I have an old Xebec drive which uses precisely the same cabling arrangement as the various BERNOULLI systems I have, and it also is terminated at the drive/controller end in a 50-pin cable from its external 37-pin version. One of the BERNOULLI arrangements I have came with an adapter to the more or less standard Amphenol (looks like a big Centronics) 50-conductor "Blue-Ribbon" connectors. This works because the controller board on the Bernoulli's controller has soldered-in terminations. I'd speculate that if you open a box and attach a typical SCSI-1 device-attachment cable not necesarily with both of the female connectors attached, it will work with standard SCSI cabling. You'll have to make/buy whatever the necesssary adapter from your MAC to the "SCSI-1" cable happens to be, however. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 7:45 AM Subject: Re: Mac to Bernoulli Cable >> > I am looking for a cable to attach a Mac SE (DB25?) to an 8" >> >Bernoulli Drive (Amphenol?) John Sowden >> >> Chances are I have it, but I don't know what it is. The SE SCSI port is >> DB25F (so the cable is DB25M), explain the other connector in more detail. >> The three common ends are; >> >> DB25M, most older mac SCSI devices. >> Centrontics50M, most SCSI devices. >> HD (high density) C50M, compaq and some sony. >> > >Anyone know anything about Centronics to DB50 pin typecables having problems >with termination or termpower on Suns... > >Was there multiple versions of the 50 pin pinout in the early days. > >Symptoms -- hung scsi bus on Sparcstations... inability to probe SCSI >when used. > >Bill From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Mar 21 10:42:49 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs Message-ID: <000801bf9354$7e8a6c00$40e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Hello again, Well, due to the overwhelming response for these 2-port and 4-port Ehernet fanouts (actually, none) I'm posting this one more time. Since each of these weigh less than a pound packaged for shipping, your total cost for one to three is only $4.80, delivered in the US I will send these internationally, but the cost will be higher. The current list price on the two port units is $80.00+, and the 4 port units go for $200.00+. If there is no interest by tomorrow morning, I'll be listing them on eBay. Perhaps someone can tell me, on list, why no one on this list has any interest in these. Maybe everyone is saving their money for iOpeners d8^) ??? Thanks, Bill whdawson@mlynk.com -> Hello group, -> -> These were given to me recently by another member of this list -> who also has -> no use for them (thanks, Pat). They can be yours for 1.5 times shipping -> cost. All are in great condition and I have no reason to believe they -> shouldn't work. Specifically, what I have are: -> -> Quantity 3 Allied Telesis / CentreCom model AT-280 (2-port transceiver -> fan-out) -> -> Quantity 3 Allied Telesis / CentreCom model AT-480 (4-port transceiver -> fan-out) -> -> Quantity 3 Canary Communications model F 4000 Rev.B (4-port transceiver -> fan-out) -> -> All are DTE powered and "can be installed with any existing -> standards-based -> transceiver used in thicknet (10BASE5), thinnet (10BASE2), fiber optic -> (FOIRL) and twisted pair (10BASE-T) installations". -> -> Summary information on the Allied Telesis units can be found at -> http://www.lantech.nl/products/ati/fanout.html and technical -> information and -> manuals in pdf format can be found at -> http://www.alliancedatacom.com/allied-telesyn-products.htm by using the -> site's "Search Site" button and entering either AT-280 or AT-480. -> -> Information on the Canary transceivers can be found at -> http://www.canarycom.com by searching for F-4000 and using the -> first link in -> the returned list. Information in pdf format for the F-4000 can -> be found by -> using the eighth link in the returned list, under Transceiver Products. -> -> Please contact me off list if interested in one or some for your own use. -> Please don't ask if your intention is resale. -> -> I realize these aren't vintage yet, but I know some of you can -> and will use -> these in networking vintage equipment d8^) -> -> I'll post to the list when all have been spoken for. -> -> Bill -> -> whdawson@mlynk.com -> From jlewczyk at his.com Tue Mar 21 11:15:40 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: GRiD 2270s In-Reply-To: <20000321003701.B15257@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <000001bf9359$1502a310$013da8c0@Corellian> There is a quite a bit of support for Grid on the web. Rob's Gridboard (bbs) http://www.pd.com/gbmain.html GRid Rugged/Tempest Laptops http://www.netmagic.net/~clare/GRiD.html Support for Grid computers still exists: http://www.grid.com/ Hope this helps. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Bradford > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 1:37 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: GRiD 2270s > > > Anybody know where I can get info on these? I picked up 3 of them today, > complete with batteries, but no power supplies or pens (they can > be used as > a "flat pad" mode, with a pen, or the screen flips up to reveal > the keyboard). > > Any info would be appreciated. > > Bill > > -- > +---------------+-------------------+ > | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | > +-------BEGIN GEEK CODE > BLOCK-------+-----------------------------------------+ > | Version: 3.12 GCS d- s:++ a- C++++ US++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ N++ o > K+++ w--- | > | O- M-- V- PS PE+ Y+ PGP t+ 5 X- R-- tv+++ b++++ DI++++ D++ G++ > e++ h r++ y+ | > +--------END GEEK CODE > BLOCK--------------------------------------------------+ > From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Mar 21 11:13:02 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <200003201540.KAA02761@dbit.dbit.com>; from wilson@dbit.dbit.com on Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 10:40:03AM -0500 References: <200003201540.KAA02761@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000321111302.R15257@mrbill.net> On Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 10:40:03AM -0500, John Wilson wrote: > Mine just arrived this morning, I had ordered it from Netpliance's own > 800 # so evidently at least *they* still have stock even if CC doesn't > (suits me, the nearest CC is 1.5 hours away from me anyway). I just got off the phone after ordering mine too; they said only Circuit City was backordered. Bill -- +---------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | +-------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------+-----------------------------------------+ | Version: 3.12 GCS d- s:++ a- C++++ US++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ N++ o K+++ w--- | | O- M-- V- PS PE+ Y+ PGP t+ 5 X- R-- tv+++ b++++ DI++++ D++ G++ e++ h r++ y+ | +--------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------------------------------------------+ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 21 11:16:46 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Mac to Bernoulli Cable In-Reply-To: <200003211436.JAA07376@bg-tc-ppp814.monmouth.com> Message-ID: > Anyone know anything about Centronics to DB50 pin typecables having problems > with termination or termpower on Suns... > Was there multiple versions of the 50 pin pinout in the early days. Yes. With , and without, termpower connected. Was mentioned in the Trantor Mini-SCSI documentation. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 21 11:20:09 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Mac to Bernoulli Cable In-Reply-To: <200003211436.JAA07376@bg-tc-ppp814.monmouth.com> Message-ID: Not all system send termpower and the local device must do it or the termpower jumper (usually, sometimes removeble fuse) has not present/failed. Allison On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > I am looking for a cable to attach a Mac SE (DB25?) to an 8" > > >Bernoulli Drive (Amphenol?) John Sowden > > > > Chances are I have it, but I don't know what it is. The SE SCSI port is > > DB25F (so the cable is DB25M), explain the other connector in more detail. > > The three common ends are; > > > > DB25M, most older mac SCSI devices. > > Centrontics50M, most SCSI devices. > > HD (high density) C50M, compaq and some sony. > > > > Anyone know anything about Centronics to DB50 pin typecables having problems > with termination or termpower on Suns... > > Was there multiple versions of the 50 pin pinout in the early days. > > Symptoms -- hung scsi bus on Sparcstations... inability to probe SCSI > when used. > > Bill > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 21 11:22:35 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Mos Technology RAM wanted In-Reply-To: <001f01bf934d$56ab6060$6d483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: 2101 was 1kbits but by 4. 256x4 22pins. For that time it may have been 2112 or other cousins. Allison On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I think the basic number you're looking for is "2101" from the same 1K > series as the famous "2102" which is a 16-pin 1kx1 with separate in and out. > The 2101's I have are not fast enough to meet the 200ns spec. However, not > much of anything that was readily available at the time the PET model 2001 > came out was that fast. Either it was quite a bit faster, e.g. 2147, 2115, > etc, or it was slower, e.g. 2114, 21L02, TMS4044 etc, which were typically > 450 ns at that point in time. Those 450 ns parts worked handsomely with the > 1 MHz 6502. Perhaps you'd be able to use a 2101. > > Let me know if you think that might work for you. I've had my small supply > (maybe 4 pieces) since back in '76-'77 when I got my original 6501, though > I've never used them for anything. > > Dick > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Turnbull > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 2:39 AM > Subject: Re: Mos Technology RAM wanted > > > >On Mar 20, 13:23, John Honniball wrote: > >> > >> On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:28:09 GMT Pete Turnbull > > wrote: > > > >> > One of the MCS6550 RAMs has gone west. Does anyone have a spare, or an > >> > equivalent, for sale? It's a 22-pin 1024 x 4 200ns static RAM. > >> > >> I'll have to check the RAMs in the spare PET that I > >> keep in the garage. Can't remember whether they're SRAMs > >> or DRAMs in the bigger PETs. > > > >Only the oldest 2001-x PETs use those SRAMs. I guess it's time to build > >that upgrade board (a PAL, a pair of EPROMS, and some 6264s, a 62256, or > >some cast-off PC cache). > > > >-- > > > >Pete Peter Turnbull > > Dept. of Computer Science > > University of York > From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Mar 21 11:30:16 2000 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) Message-ID: <802568A9.0060016B.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > I think the basic number you're looking for is "2101" from the same 1K > series as the famous "2102" which is a 16-pin 1kx1 with separate in and out. > The 2101's I have are not fast enough to meet the 200ns spec. However, not > much of anything that was readily available at the time the PET model 2001 > came out was that fast. Either it was quite a bit faster, e.g. 2147, 2115, > etc, or it was slower, e.g. 2114, 21L02, TMS4044 etc, which were typically > 450 ns at that point in time. Those 450 ns parts worked handsomely with the > 1 MHz 6502. Perhaps you'd be able to use a 2101. I would have thought a 2101 was far too small. These are 4kbit chips. I agree 200ns probably isn't essential - my PET of that date uses 450ns 2114s. On the 1MHz 6502 you have 500ns between the two clock edges that govern RAM timing - one guaranteeing a valid address, the second latching in the data. (FWIW there were FOUR motherboard designs for the early PETs, based on all permutations of 2114 or 6550 RAM and 2316 or 6540 ROM. Mine is late for an old style PET, and has 2114 and 6540) >>> > One of the MCS6550 RAMs has gone west. Does anyone have a spare, or an >>> > equivalent, for sale? It's a 22-pin 1024 x 4 200ns static RAM. >>> >>> I'll have to check the RAMs in the spare PET that I >>> keep in the garage. Can't remember whether they're SRAMs >>> or DRAMs in the bigger PETs. >> >>Only the oldest 2001-x PETs use those SRAMs. I guess it's time to build >>that upgrade board (a PAL, a pair of EPROMS, and some 6264s, a 62256, or >>some cast-off PC cache). That's right. When they revised the ROM code, they revised the motherboard so that all ROMs were 2332s (and the sockets would take 2732s) and all RAM was dynamic. The thing that bothers me is that it says 3071 bytes free. This is EXACTLY the number of bytes free you get on a 4K PET. My advice - Identify the suspect pair of chips (remember these are 4-bit wide parts) - I have the circuit diagrams if you want - and swap them with the corresponding pair for the top 1k of RAM. You should then get the message "6143 BYTES FREE" when you power up. (Or try swapping them with the video RAM - you'll soon see if the chip is dead!) I suspect, however, you will still get 3071 BYTES FREE. Let me explain. On these early PETS the top four address lines come from the processor and go straight into a 74154 decoder, AND NOWHERE ELSE. This outputs sixteen block select lines - one for each 4k of memory. Your PET is failing memory test at exactly the point where it passes into the second 4k block from the first. In short, I think a failure at the block boundary is too much of a coincidence. I'd trace out what this line is doing from the 74154 (there is only one, and it's 24 pin, so you can't miss it!) to the RAM. Failing this, I'd suspect something else in the chip select logic. (It could, of course be a failure that affects a whole chip, but I'd try the other things after you've swapped RAM chips if the BYTES FREE doesn't change) As I said, I can lend you my copy of the circuit diagrams if you haven't already got one. Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From elvey at hal.com Tue Mar 21 11:51:08 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <20000321014950.A5807@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <200003211751.JAA11630@civic.hal.com> John Wilson wrote: > > I deleted an earlier post before its Deep Inner Beauty sunk in, who was > it that suggested switching the conductors by simply using two separate > ribbon cables with a straight-through header between them? I like it! > (Trying to figure out whether it would work makes my head hurt, but I think > you're right.) Looks like a regular through-hole PCB header might even work, > the solder tail end is only 0.85 mm shorter than the business end, according > to the sketches in the Digikey catalog. Hi I thought I might add that the simple pin headers that come on the black strips can be used. Even though these come with unbalanced pin hights, one can simply push the pin through the plastic until they are balanced. The pins are straight through. I once made several foot extention this way. I found the line flipping and realized that I needed three pieces ( or any odd number ) to keep the signals straight. On a seperate subject, these iopeners, when you buy them, is there some kind of isp obligation or do you just get the machine for $99 with no strings? Dwight From edick at idcomm.com Tue Mar 21 12:02:08 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Mos Technology RAM wanted Message-ID: <000f01bf935f$93e1fae0$75483cd1@winbook> I'm not at all sure what you've said here, Allison. Aren't we in agreement? The 2101 was a 1k-bit sram organized as 256x4 with separate inputs and outputs. The 2102 was a 1k-bit sram organized as 1kx1 with separate in and out. The 2112 was a 1 k-bit sram organized as 256x4 with common ins and outs. They're all different, but whoever wrote the message to which I attached mine already knew that it was a 256x4 in a 22 pin package 0.400" wide. Additionally, there was a 2115 which was a high-speed (25 ns) 1kx1 sram with open drain outputs. I saw few applications for that one, however. It had a cousin, the 2125, which had the same pinout and architecture, but had tristate outputs. Things got muddled when the iNTEL folks started using unused numbers in the 1K-bit family, e.g. 2114, for memories larger than 1k-bits. The 2114, however, was just a microcomputer-compatible (slow) version of the already widely used 2148/49, which was a fast (35-70ns) equivalent to the 2114. They also made the 2147 which had the same bit count as the 2148/49 but with a 4kx1 organization with separate input and output and pinout compatible with the much slower TMS4044. The PET 2001 was pretty early among the production microcomputers, hence may have come along too early to capitalize on the high-volume production of the 4K-bit srams. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 10:40 AM Subject: Re: Mos Technology RAM wanted > >2101 was 1kbits but by 4. 256x4 22pins. > >For that time it may have been 2112 or other cousins. > >Allison > >On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> I think the basic number you're looking for is "2101" from the same 1K >> series as the famous "2102" which is a 16-pin 1kx1 with separate in and out. >> The 2101's I have are not fast enough to meet the 200ns spec. However, not >> much of anything that was readily available at the time the PET model 2001 >> came out was that fast. Either it was quite a bit faster, e.g. 2147, 2115, >> etc, or it was slower, e.g. 2114, 21L02, TMS4044 etc, which were typically >> 450 ns at that point in time. Those 450 ns parts worked handsomely with the >> 1 MHz 6502. Perhaps you'd be able to use a 2101. >> >> Let me know if you think that might work for you. I've had my small supply >> (maybe 4 pieces) since back in '76-'77 when I got my original 6501, though >> I've never used them for anything. >> >> Dick >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Turnbull >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 2:39 AM >> Subject: Re: Mos Technology RAM wanted >> >> >> >On Mar 20, 13:23, John Honniball wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:28:09 GMT Pete Turnbull >> > wrote: >> > >> >> > One of the MCS6550 RAMs has gone west. Does anyone have a spare, or an >> >> > equivalent, for sale? It's a 22-pin 1024 x 4 200ns static RAM. >> >> >> >> I'll have to check the RAMs in the spare PET that I >> >> keep in the garage. Can't remember whether they're SRAMs >> >> or DRAMs in the bigger PETs. >> > >> >Only the oldest 2001-x PETs use those SRAMs. I guess it's time to build >> >that upgrade board (a PAL, a pair of EPROMS, and some 6264s, a 62256, or >> >some cast-off PC cache). >> > >> >-- >> > >> >Pete Peter Turnbull >> > Dept. of Computer Science >> > University of York >> > From technoid at cheta.net Tue Mar 21 11:40:37 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:16 2005 Subject: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs In-Reply-To: <000801bf9354$7e8a6c00$40e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <200003211809.NAA14184@lexington.ioa.net> I have an interest as I have a Data General Mini and a Sun machine which use AUI for thier network connection. The boxes you have are a bit more advanced than I require so I felt I should let others get 'first dibs' on them. Especially since I have Computer Parts Barn to draw on for parts. Ed has none of those boxes though. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Tue Mar 21 12:16:57 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) Message-ID: <001801bf9361$a528f9a0$75483cd1@winbook> OOPS! I misread the previous post . . . it does say 1k x 4 bits. The only 22-pin 4K-bit sram I remember from those days is one from EMM-SEMI, but the number escapes me. Nevertheless, the only SRAM I remember in a 22-pin package other than the EMM-SEMI parts, was the 256x4 2101. There were plenty of non-multiplexed DRAMs in that package, but few SRAMs. If you have 22-pin parts and the memory diagnostic is failing on a 4K-byte boundary, it's likely the parts are something wierd. The conclusion that Philip has reached here is quite plausible. I'd explore his proposed solution before going any further. MOS Technology did build a few oddball parts, but I don't remember seeing any of their parts as being THAT odd. My MOS data books don't include any memory parts, though they did build some ROMs at that time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 10:51 AM Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) > >> I think the basic number you're looking for is "2101" from the same 1K >> series as the famous "2102" which is a 16-pin 1kx1 with separate in and out. >> The 2101's I have are not fast enough to meet the 200ns spec. However, not >> much of anything that was readily available at the time the PET model 2001 >> came out was that fast. Either it was quite a bit faster, e.g. 2147, 2115, >> etc, or it was slower, e.g. 2114, 21L02, TMS4044 etc, which were typically >> 450 ns at that point in time. Those 450 ns parts worked handsomely with the >> 1 MHz 6502. Perhaps you'd be able to use a 2101. > >I would have thought a 2101 was far too small. These are 4kbit chips. > >I agree 200ns probably isn't essential - my PET of that date uses 450ns 2114s. >On the 1MHz 6502 you have 500ns between the two clock edges that govern RAM >timing - one guaranteeing a valid address, the second latching in the data. > >(FWIW there were FOUR motherboard designs for the early PETs, based on all >permutations of 2114 or 6550 RAM and 2316 or 6540 ROM. Mine is late for an old >style PET, and has 2114 and 6540) > >>>> > One of the MCS6550 RAMs has gone west. Does anyone have a spare, or an >>>> > equivalent, for sale? It's a 22-pin 1024 x 4 200ns static RAM. >>>> >>>> I'll have to check the RAMs in the spare PET that I >>>> keep in the garage. Can't remember whether they're SRAMs >>>> or DRAMs in the bigger PETs. >>> >>>Only the oldest 2001-x PETs use those SRAMs. I guess it's time to build >>>that upgrade board (a PAL, a pair of EPROMS, and some 6264s, a 62256, or >>>some cast-off PC cache). > >That's right. When they revised the ROM code, they revised the motherboard so >that all ROMs were 2332s (and the sockets would take 2732s) and all RAM was >dynamic. > >The thing that bothers me is that it says 3071 bytes free. This is EXACTLY the >number of bytes free you get on a 4K PET. > >My advice - Identify the suspect pair of chips (remember these are 4-bit wide >parts) - I have the circuit diagrams if you want - and swap them with the >corresponding pair for the top 1k of RAM. You should then get the message "6143 >BYTES FREE" when you power up. (Or try swapping them with the video RAM - >you'll soon see if the chip is dead!) > >I suspect, however, you will still get 3071 BYTES FREE. > >Let me explain. On these early PETS the top four address lines come from the >processor and go straight into a 74154 decoder, AND NOWHERE ELSE. This outputs >sixteen block select lines - one for each 4k of memory. Your PET is failing >memory test at exactly the point where it passes into the second 4k block from >the first. > >In short, I think a failure at the block boundary is too much of a coincidence. >I'd trace out what this line is doing from the 74154 (there is only one, and >it's 24 pin, so you can't miss it!) to the RAM. Failing this, I'd suspect >something else in the chip select logic. (It could, of course be a failure that >affects a whole chip, but I'd try the other things after you've swapped RAM >chips if the BYTES FREE doesn't change) > >As I said, I can lend you my copy of the circuit diagrams if you haven't already >got one. > >Philip. > > > > >********************************************************************** >This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and >intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they >are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify >the system manager. > >This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept >for the presence of computer viruses. > >Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, >Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK >Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 >http://www.powertech.co.uk >********************************************************************** From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 21 12:35:08 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Mac to Bernoulli Cable In-Reply-To: <200003211436.JAA07376@bg-tc-ppp814.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at Mar 21, 0 09:35:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1134 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000321/cdec5ae0/attachment.ksh From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Mar 21 12:53:58 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: GRiD stuff In-Reply-To: <20000321031314.L15257@mrbill.net>; from Bill Bradford on Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 03:13:14AM -0600 References: <20000321031314.L15257@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20000321115357.B26092@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 03:13:14AM -0600, Bill Bradford wrote: > I've got a GRIDcase 1530 here, with no power supply. I tried using one > of the cheap 9.95 "multi-voltage, multi-attachment" generic power supplies > I have here (use it to charge my mavica battery). > > Power supply's max is 12V. The GRiD says 16V, but someone told me they'll > run off of 12V (automotive voltage) too. > > When I plug it in and hit the switch, the status lights above the keyboard > flash on and off rapidly (continuously) in conjunction with a "ticking" noise. > > My guess is, the power supply isnt up to snuff with what the laptop wants. > > Anybody got a power supply (and/or an entire system WITH power supply) for > a 1530 for sale? In fact, I'd be interested in ANY GRiD hardware that > anybody on this list has for sale. I've got a couple of those (if memory serves, at any rate it's the 286 model) and one of them works, and the other power supply does the same thing you're talking about. Not sure why. Maybe it can't supply enough current. I don't remember whether I tried using a big 12V power supply yet, but I would probably try that. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Mar 21 13:09:58 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps... Message-ID: Does anyone have any practical advice concerning this, something that might save me a little time/frustration? I'm playing around with some parts to try to learn more about how the system works, and here's what I've got: 22bit qbus backplane 11/73 cpu 1 meg ram various device interface cards (Dilog SQ706A, RQDX3, Emulex TC03, RXV21 clone) I'd like to be able to set up the simplest system possible and try to toggle in a bootstrap. I've played with the ones on metalab (RX01, MSCP) without much real success so far. Trying to boot from the RX01's using the bootstrap code on metalab results in the drive access light coming on, but nothing else happening. Sending a break stops at 1044 every time, the contents of that register is 1776. Trying to boot from the Dilog scsi device #0 (should be DU0, right?) just hangs (again using the MSCP bootstrap on metalab). The MSCP bootstrap is well-commented, so I can see what's going on there...a little hint or push may be all I need to be able to modify it to work for me. The RX01 bootstrap is not commented at all, unfortunately. I know the RXV21 clone is working OK, since I can boot from it with the bootstrap roms on my multifunction card... Thanks, Aaron From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Mar 21 13:20:36 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > Does anyone have any practical advice concerning this, something that > might save me a little time/frustration? I'm playing around with some > parts to try to learn more about how the system works, and here's what > I've got: > > 22bit qbus backplane > 11/73 cpu > 1 meg ram > various device interface cards (Dilog SQ706A, RQDX3, Emulex TC03, RXV21 > clone) Sorry, should have also mentioned a DLVJ1 as the SLU on port 3. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Mar 21 13:48:52 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: OT: DSL and Apple Network Servers Message-ID: <200003211948.LAA11104@oa.ptloma.edu> This is probably OT, so flames to my address. I finally tracked down a source of upgrades for my Apple Network Server 500. It will shortly be upgraded to 80MB RAM, and I'm mulling over buying a new processor card for it ($200! cough). MacWorks has some stuff in stock. So, with this buff discontinued box, I'm thinking of getting it a DSL line to boot. But I can't find a straight answer if all DSL services give you a static IP address or not. Do they? And should most of them work with AIX 4.1.4? I would think so, since it's just a DSL router and the ANS500 plugs into that like any other network. Thanks, sorry for the off-topic. (But hey, we've been discussing iOpeners all week, right? ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- FORTUNE: You will feel gypped by this fortune. ----------------------------- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Mar 21 12:08:39 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: New drives in the M3100/M76 References: Message-ID: <00b901bf9370$d6600360$68e893c3@proteus> Hi Paul, > I also had problems with a IBM 0661 disk. I was unable to >get it to 512 byte sectors from 524/sector using either >RZDISK (VMS) or TEST 75 on my 3100-M76. I've also had trouble with these drives. I have a pair in my PS/2-9595 which work fine in that machine, but won't work reliably in my Celeron based machine (they work for a while, then suddenly become inaccessible for no apparent reason). I'd love to know why this is. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Mar 21 11:58:20 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: ram chip crossreference? References: Message-ID: <00b801bf9370$d517f300$68e893c3@proteus> Hi Mike, > I do well enough in weeding out the worthless 256k SIMMs, >but stumble often enough with 1 MB vs 4 MB.... >....likely its a 1 MB and can just be tossed in a bin.). If you find any more "worthless" 256K or 1Mb SIMMs toss them my way, I can use 'em. :-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 21 13:22:16 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Mos Technology RAM wanted In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: Mos Technology RAM wanted" (Mar 21, 8:51) References: <001f01bf934d$56ab6060$6d483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: <10003211922.ZM10287@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 21, 8:51, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I think the basic number you're looking for is "2101" from the same 1K > series as the famous "2102" which is a 16-pin 1kx1 with separate in and out. No. The earliest PETS almost all used the MCS6550 SRAMs I mentioned; a few used 2114s (different and fairly rare PCB). The later ones all used 4116s. None of them ever used 2101s or 2102s. I'm looking for a MCS6550; nothing else will do :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Mar 21 14:09:22 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs In-Reply-To: <000801bf9354$7e8a6c00$40e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: >Perhaps someone can tell me, on list, why no one on this list has any >interest in these. Maybe everyone is saving their money for iOpeners d8^) I don't have a clue what they are used for. Something else to keep in mind is that while many topics get almost immediate response, MANY of the people on this list lead normal lives and only read it a few times a week, and they don't respond for a few days. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Mar 21 14:22:47 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: OT: DSL and Apple Network Servers In-Reply-To: <200003211948.LAA11104@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >I finally tracked down a source of upgrades for my Apple Network Server 500. >It will shortly be upgraded to 80MB RAM, and I'm mulling over buying a new >processor card for it ($200! cough). MacWorks has some stuff in stock. So, >with this buff discontinued box, I'm thinking of getting it a DSL line to >boot. >But I can't find a straight answer if all DSL services give you a static IP >address or not. Do they? And should most of them work with AIX 4.1.4? I would >think so, since it's just a DSL router and the ANS500 plugs into that like >any other network. No to both, some give static, most want to give you dynamic, but it depends entirely on who the provider is. Some have software that only runs on fairly recent OS releases, so you would have to setup and run admin type stuff on a newer machine. What "is" a network server 500, and what is the upgrade (very unlikely to be worth $200)? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 21 14:27:24 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) In-Reply-To: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk "Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted)" (Mar 21, 17:30) References: <802568A9.0060016B.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <10003212027.ZM10310@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 21, 17:30, Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > I would have thought a 2101 was far too small. These are 4kbit chips. Correct :-) > I agree 200ns probably isn't essential - my PET of that date uses 450ns 2114s. Yes, I'm sure that's true. The 2114 PETs are rarer, but I can't see any reason to use 200ns devices, except that's what MOS Technology (who were largely owned by Commodore) were making. > (FWIW there were FOUR motherboard designs for the early PETs, based on all > permutations of 2114 or 6550 RAM and 2316 or 6540 ROM. I've got the schematics for all 4 types. They're almost identical except for slight differences in the memory decoding. > The thing that bothers me is that it says 3071 bytes free. This is EXACTLY the > number of bytes free you get on a 4K PET. > > My advice - Identify the suspect pair of chips (remember these are 4-bit wide > parts) Oh, I did that to check that it was definitely the RAM and not anything else, long before I posted my request. I could fix about anything else on the PET, but I draw the line at grinding the top off to poke at individual flip-flops in an IC :-) FWIW, the first job I had in computers/IT/whateveryoucallit was looking after (and repairing at component level) PETs and other micros, in 1981. The PET determines the RAM size by reading and writing a byte in every block and assumes it has found the top of RAM when it gets an error. It was just coincidence that one of the 5th pair was the one to go. So I now have a 7K PET, because I put the faulty IC in the top pair. It reports 6143 bytes free. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 21 14:48:38 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps... In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Mar 21, 2000 11:09:58 AM Message-ID: <200003212048.MAA26388@shell1.aracnet.com> > might save me a little time/frustration? I'm playing around with some > parts to try to learn more about how the system works, and here's what > I've got: > > 22bit qbus backplane > 11/73 cpu > 1 meg ram > various device interface cards (Dilog SQ706A, RQDX3, Emulex TC03, RXV21 > clone) > > I'd like to be able to set up the simplest system possible and try to > toggle in a bootstrap. I've played with the ones on metalab (RX01, MSCP) It sounds like you've got about as messed up a setup there as I've got. I'm guessing you have the dual height, and not the quad height /73 CPU board. You mention problems with booting a SCSI disk off the Dilog controller. Have you verified tha the you don't have boards sitting at the same CSR? For that matter why do you have the RQDX3 in the system (in my case I use it for the RX50's). Do you have any 3rd party disk controllers with a bootstrap built in? That's how I boot my system. Just to give you an idea of how messed up my system is, I've got a Viking SCSI, WQESD/04, and a RQDX3. The Viking has my disks and tape, the RQDX3 the floppy, and alll the WQESD/04 is currently doing is booting the system! In fact by default the WQESD boots DU0: on the Viking board. A good goal for you would be to get everything working under RT-11. That's a great way to learn. BTW, if you don't have a bootable 3rd party controller, or the DEC board with the boot ROMs, I hope you've figured out how to send the bootstrap over a serial line from a PC (I never did). Zane From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Mar 21 14:49:33 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: ram chip crossreference? In-Reply-To: <00b801bf9370$d517f300$68e893c3@proteus> References: Message-ID: >Hi Mike, > > > I do well enough in weeding out the worthless 256k SIMMs, > >but stumble often enough with 1 MB vs 4 MB.... > >....likely its a 1 MB and can just be tossed in a bin.). > >If you find any more "worthless" 256K or 1Mb SIMMs toss them my way, I can >use 'em. :-) I'll make a general offer to the whole list, 256k Simms for 1.2 * shipping (shipping is actual postage plus $1 for a box or padded envelope if the shipping method doesn't include it like priority mail does) (please ask for just what you need) 1 MB simms 4 matched/$3, 8 matched/$5 plus shipping. No applications research available at these prices, but I will check for speeds. BTW I'm guessing the list has some people besides myself pulling parts. Recently I have started pulling chips off boards and dumping them in a box. Mostly memory stuff I hope to use on underpopulated cards of my own, but I suspect that if people make requests to the list, parts may be found. Related to the chips, AAAArg, bought some cards a couple weeks ago and the scrapper had cut the fingers off half a dozen nice cards, Corvus workstation cards, Z80 cards, etc. OTOH I have a few Z80A chips in my parts box now. From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Mar 21 15:23:00 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: OT: DSL and Apple Network Servers In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Mar 21, 0 12:22:47 pm" Message-ID: <200003212123.NAA07220@oa.ptloma.edu> ::No to both, some give static, most want to give you dynamic, but it depends ::entirely on who the provider is. Some have software that only runs on ::fairly recent OS releases, so you would have to setup and run admin type ::stuff on a newer machine. Pac Bell is the local provider for me. Does anyone have experience with their DSL service? A friend of mine got his with static IP and connected his Linux network to it without comment from them but OTOH he has the maxxed-out-all-bells-and-whistles-beaucoup-bucks commercial setup. GTE is also in this area but I know nothing of their service at all. I tried looking at Covad this morning but their database server is on the blink and won't let me get information on local providers. ::What "is" a network server 500, and what is the upgrade (very unlikely to ::be worth $200)? A Network Server 500 is one of Apple's two ill-fated Unix server models. The 500 is a 132MHz 604e and the 700 is a 150MHz. They both run AIX 4.1.4.0 but people have been working on LinuxPPC for them. Mine runs AIX since I remain leery of Linux on the ANS because of the incompatibilities in earlier versions. My unit also has 32MB RAM (soon to be 80), 4x CD, DDS-2 tape backup and a 2GB HD that I may or may not upgrade (it's just me using it and I don't store much on the system). Apple dropped the line like a hot potato. A shame, since I love this thing, and everyone else I know with an ANS loves theirs too. The processor board upgrade is a 604e/200 (not the CPU itself but the entire board and supporting hardware). I don't think it's worth $200 either but that's what they're selling it for and I can't find one anywhere else. I'm not sure if I can just rip the 604e/132 off the board and put in a /200, though. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Neckties strangle clear thinking. -- Lin Yutang ---------------------------- From brian.roth at firstniagarabank.com Tue Mar 21 15:39:38 2000 From: brian.roth at firstniagarabank.com (brian roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps Message-ID: A good goal for you would be to get everything working under RT-11. That's a great way to learn. BTW, if you don't have a bootable 3rd party controller, or the DEC board with the boot ROMs, I hope you've figured out how to send the bootstrap over a serial line from a PC (I never did). Zane I did. I used to boot my 11/34 from RL02's with a 386 PC running Procomm. I believe I put the code in just a basic ASCII text file one line at a time with a carriage return after each and then uploaded the file as text over the same serial console line. Worked like a champ, and it sure saved the fingers from pressing those little chicklet keys on the programmers console... From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 21 15:45:54 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) In-Reply-To: <802568A9.0060016B.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: > I would have thought a 2101 was far too small. These are 4kbit chips. Are these single voltage or multiple? 4k? 22pin? sounds like the semi-4600 and NEC D410 parts, a 4k pseudostatic 200ns cycle and access under 120ns. I've got a rat load of upd410s. The moto part number doesn't compute though. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 21 15:50:59 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) In-Reply-To: <001801bf9361$a528f9a0$75483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: > OOPS! I misread the previous post . . . it does say 1k x 4 bits. > > The only 22-pin 4K-bit sram I remember from those days is one from EMM-SEMI, > but the number escapes me. Nevertheless, the only SRAM I remember in a > 22-pin package other than the EMM-SEMI parts, was the 256x4 2101. There > were plenty of non-multiplexed DRAMs in that package, but few SRAMs. semi-4600 Nec did one both dynamic (upd411, ti4060, intel 2107) and the NEC pseudostaic (cell is static logic is dynamic on CS/) called the 410 and that is like the semi part. There were other oddballs. Allison From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 21 15:46:18 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs In-Reply-To: Mike Ford "Re: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs" (Mar 21, 12:09) References: Message-ID: <10003212146.ZM10423@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 21, 12:09, Mike Ford wrote: > >Perhaps someone can tell me, on list, why no one on this list has any > >interest in these. Maybe everyone is saving their money for iOpeners d8^) > > I don't have a clue what they are used for. I don't know either, but I might hazard a guess that they originated in the days of thick ethernet, when taps were expensive, and had to be fitted at specific intervals on the thick coax. Then perhaps it might make sense to connect two devices to one tap/transceiver. I'm just guessing, though. Now if they'd been the other "gender", so to speak -- ie, if they could be used to connect one device to two transceivers -- it would be tantamount to a bridge. Then I could probably use one as a media converter by adding both a 10base2 and a 10baseT transceiver, and link the 10base2 part of my home network to the 10baseT part without leaving a power-hungry repeater running all the time. I don't think they'll do that though. I once tried it with two transceivers back to back, and just got millions of collisions. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 21 15:57:49 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps... In-Reply-To: Aaron Christopher Finney "Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps..." (Mar 21, 11:09) References: Message-ID: <10003212157.ZM10428@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 21, 11:09, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > Does anyone have any practical advice concerning this, something that > might save me a little time/frustration? At least to start with, I'd ignore the MSCP stuff and play with the 11/73 and RXV21. It's easier to see what's going on, since you can single-step and look at the RXV21 registers; MSCP is a relatively complex protocol which uses command buffers in memory, and the registers won't tell you much. > I'd like to be able to set up the simplest system possible and try to > toggle in a bootstrap. I've played with the ones on metalab (RX01, MSCP) > without much real success so far. Trying to boot from the RX01's using the > bootstrap code on metalab results in the drive access light coming on, but > nothing else happening. Sending a break stops at 1044 every time, the > contents of that register is 1776. Trying to boot from the Dilog scsi > device #0 (should be DU0, right?) just hangs (again using the MSCP > bootstrap on metalab). The MSCP bootstrap is well-commented, so I can see > what's going on there...a little hint or push may be all I need to be able > to modify it to work for me. The RX01 bootstrap is not commented at all, > unfortunately. An RXV21 (RX02) bootstrap is different from an RXV11 (RX01). Below is one for an RXV21. I also have quite a few little routines to do things like echo to the console, test/size RAM, dump memory, find CSRs, do serial port loopback tests, etc; all small enough to enter using ODT. Mail me if you want any... 1 000000 ; RXV21_boot From Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook 1983-84, page 484 2 000000 ; Use ODT to enter, then set RS=340, R6=1000, R7=1000, then P 3 000000 ; 4 000000 ORG O1000 5 001000 ; 6 001000 012700 MOV #O100240,R0 6 001002 100240 7 001004 012701 MOV #O177170,R1 ; RXCSR 7 001006 177170 8 001010 005002 CLR R2 9 001012 012705 MOV #O200,R5 9 001014 000200 10 001016 012704 MOV #O401,R4 ; track 1, sector 1 10 001020 000401 11 001022 012703 MOV #O177172,R3 ; RXDBR 11 001024 177172 12 001026 030011 BIT R0,(R1) 13 001030 001776 BEQ $-4 ; wait for TransferReq or Done 14 001032 100437 BMI O1132 ; branch if ERR set 15 001034 012711 MOV #O407,(R1) ; set DDens, Read, Go 15 001036 000407 16 001040 030011 BIT R0,(R1) ; wait for TR 17 001042 001776 BEQ $-4 18 001044 100432 BMI O1132 ; branch if ERR set 19 001046 110413 MOVB R4,(R3) ; give sector number 20 001050 000304 SWAB R4 ; swap track and sector 21 001052 030011 BIT R0,(R1) ; wait for TR 22 001054 001776 BEQ $-4 23 001056 110413 MOVB R4,(R3) ; give track number 24 001060 000304 SWAB R4 ; swap sector and track 25 001062 030011 BIT R0,(R1) ; wait for TR 26 001064 001776 BEQ $-4 27 001066 100421 BMI O1132 28 001070 012711 MOV #O403,(R1) ; EmptyBuffer (DDens) command 28 001072 000403 29 001074 030011 BIT R0,(R1) ; wait for TR 30 001076 001776 BEQ $-4 31 001100 010414 MOV R4,(R4) ; save sector number 32 001102 010513 MOV R5,(R3) ; set word count=256 33 001104 030011 BIT R0,(R1) 34 001106 001776 BEQ $-4 ; wait for done 35 001110 100410 BMI O1132 36 001112 010213 MOV R2,(R3) ; set address=0 37 001114 060502 ADD R5,R2 ; increment... 38 001116 060502 ADD R5,R2 ; ...address 39 001120 122424 CMPB (R4)+,(R4)+ ; bump R4 by 2 and clear all flags 40 001122 120427 CMPB R4,#3 ; sectors 1 and 3 get done 40 001124 000003 41 001126 003735 BLE O1022 ; loop if not finished 42 001130 012700 MOV #0,R0 42 001132 000000 43 001134 005007 CLR PC ; go to address zero 44 001136 120427 CMPB R4,#0 ; dummy operation, pipelined but not executed 44 001140 000000 -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 21 15:48:17 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) In-Reply-To: <10003212027.ZM10310@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Mar 21, 0 08:27:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 250 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000321/c7c28105/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Mar 21 16:24:36 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs In-Reply-To: <10003212146.ZM10423@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Mar 21, 2000 09:46:18 PM Message-ID: <200003212224.PAA26211@calico.litterbox.com> > I don't know either, but I might hazard a guess that they originated in the > days of thick ethernet, when taps were expensive, and had to be fitted at > specific intervals on the thick coax. Then perhaps it might make sense to > connect two devices to one tap/transceiver. I'm just guessing, though. > > Now if they'd been the other "gender", so to speak -- ie, if they could be > used to connect one device to two transceivers -- it would be tantamount to > a bridge. Then I could probably use one as a media converter by adding > both a 10base2 and a 10baseT transceiver, and link the 10base2 part of my > home network to the 10baseT part without leaving a power-hungry repeater > running all the time. I don't think they'll do that though. I once tried > it with two transceivers back to back, and just got millions of collisions. Couldn't they be used to divide a termination domain? IE the multiport transceiver sits between two branches of a thin-net network, protecting against loss of termination on either branch? Obviously they'd still be in the same collision domain... -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Mar 21 16:27:16 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps... In-Reply-To: <200003212048.MAA26388@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: I should have been a little more specific with my description. I have the peripheral boards sitting around me and am just playing with one at a time for fun. I do have a bootable system already, but I'm just playing with them for the fun/experience... I double checked to make sure that they had unique CSR assignments...besides the SLU, will the system expect any of the peripherals to have standard addresses/vectors? I'll try to push the bootstrap via serial tonight, though I'm using a WYSE 60 and it's pretty easy to type it out. Side note: does anyone know how to send a plain LF with a WYSE 60, without changing the personality to a different terminal? My setup cycles through like this for assigning the Enter key: CR...CRLF...CR...TAB...I got around it last night by switching personalities to one of the DG modes. Thanks, Aaron On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > might save me a little time/frustration? I'm playing around with some > > parts to try to learn more about how the system works, and here's what > > I've got: > > > > 22bit qbus backplane > > 11/73 cpu > > 1 meg ram > > various device interface cards (Dilog SQ706A, RQDX3, Emulex TC03, RXV21 > > clone) > > > > I'd like to be able to set up the simplest system possible and try to > > toggle in a bootstrap. I've played with the ones on metalab (RX01, MSCP) > > It sounds like you've got about as messed up a setup there as I've got. I'm > guessing you have the dual height, and not the quad height /73 CPU board. > > You mention problems with booting a SCSI disk off the Dilog controller. > Have you verified tha the you don't have boards sitting at the same CSR? > For that matter why do you have the RQDX3 in the system (in my case I use it > for the RX50's). > > Do you have any 3rd party disk controllers with a bootstrap built in? > That's how I boot my system. > > Just to give you an idea of how messed up my system is, I've got a Viking > SCSI, WQESD/04, and a RQDX3. The Viking has my disks and tape, the RQDX3 > the floppy, and alll the WQESD/04 is currently doing is booting the system! > In fact by default the WQESD boots DU0: on the Viking board. > > A good goal for you would be to get everything working under RT-11. That's > a great way to learn. > > BTW, if you don't have a bootable 3rd party controller, or the DEC board > with the boot ROMs, I hope you've figured out how to send the bootstrap > over a serial line from a PC (I never did). > > Zane > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Mar 21 16:33:11 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps... In-Reply-To: <10003212157.ZM10428@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: Thanks Pete, I'll give this a try when I get home tonight. And thanks for putting the comments in as well! It's nice to see what's going on, that's kind of what I'm after by playing around with this stuff this way. Cheers, Aaron On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Mar 21, 11:09, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > > Does anyone have any practical advice concerning this, something that > > might save me a little time/frustration? > > At least to start with, I'd ignore the MSCP stuff and play with the 11/73 > and RXV21. It's easier to see what's going on, since you can single-step > and look at the RXV21 registers; MSCP is a relatively complex protocol > which uses command buffers in memory, and the registers won't tell you > much. > > > I'd like to be able to set up the simplest system possible and try to > > toggle in a bootstrap. I've played with the ones on metalab (RX01, MSCP) > > without much real success so far. Trying to boot from the RX01's using > the > > bootstrap code on metalab results in the drive access light coming on, > but > > nothing else happening. Sending a break stops at 1044 every time, the > > contents of that register is 1776. Trying to boot from the Dilog scsi > > device #0 (should be DU0, right?) just hangs (again using the MSCP > > bootstrap on metalab). The MSCP bootstrap is well-commented, so I can see > > what's going on there...a little hint or push may be all I need to be > able > > to modify it to work for me. The RX01 bootstrap is not commented at all, > > unfortunately. > > An RXV21 (RX02) bootstrap is different from an RXV11 (RX01). Below is one > for an RXV21. I also have quite a few little routines to do things like > echo to the console, test/size RAM, dump memory, find CSRs, do serial port > loopback tests, etc; all small enough to enter using ODT. Mail me if you > want any... > > 1 000000 ; RXV21_boot From Microcomputer Interfaces > Handbook 1983-84, page 484 > 2 000000 ; Use ODT to enter, then set RS=340, > R6=1000, R7=1000, then P > 3 000000 ; > 4 000000 ORG O1000 > 5 001000 ; > 6 001000 012700 MOV #O100240,R0 > 6 001002 100240 > 7 001004 012701 MOV #O177170,R1 ; RXCSR > 7 001006 177170 > 8 001010 005002 CLR R2 > 9 001012 012705 MOV #O200,R5 > 9 001014 000200 > 10 001016 012704 MOV #O401,R4 ; track 1, > sector 1 > 10 001020 000401 > 11 001022 012703 MOV #O177172,R3 ; RXDBR > 11 001024 177172 > 12 001026 030011 BIT R0,(R1) > 13 001030 001776 BEQ $-4 ; wait for > TransferReq or Done > 14 001032 100437 BMI O1132 ; branch if > ERR set > 15 001034 012711 MOV #O407,(R1) ; set DDens, > Read, Go > 15 001036 000407 > 16 001040 030011 BIT R0,(R1) ; wait for TR > 17 001042 001776 BEQ $-4 > 18 001044 100432 BMI O1132 ; branch if > ERR set > 19 001046 110413 MOVB R4,(R3) ; give sector > number > 20 001050 000304 SWAB R4 ; swap track > and sector > 21 001052 030011 BIT R0,(R1) ; wait for TR > 22 001054 001776 BEQ $-4 > 23 001056 110413 MOVB R4,(R3) ; give track > number > 24 001060 000304 SWAB R4 ; swap sector > and track > 25 001062 030011 BIT R0,(R1) ; wait for TR > 26 001064 001776 BEQ $-4 > 27 001066 100421 BMI O1132 > 28 001070 012711 MOV #O403,(R1) ; EmptyBuffer > (DDens) command > 28 001072 000403 > 29 001074 030011 BIT R0,(R1) ; wait for TR > 30 001076 001776 BEQ $-4 > 31 001100 010414 MOV R4,(R4) ; save sector > number > 32 001102 010513 MOV R5,(R3) ; set word > count=256 > 33 001104 030011 BIT R0,(R1) > 34 001106 001776 BEQ $-4 ; wait for > done > 35 001110 100410 BMI O1132 > 36 001112 010213 MOV R2,(R3) ; set > address=0 > 37 001114 060502 ADD R5,R2 ; > increment... > 38 001116 060502 ADD R5,R2 ; ...address > 39 001120 122424 CMPB (R4)+,(R4)+ ; bump R4 by > 2 and clear all flags > 40 001122 120427 CMPB R4,#3 ; sectors 1 > and 3 get done > 40 001124 000003 > 41 001126 003735 BLE O1022 ; loop if not > finished > 42 001130 012700 MOV #0,R0 > 42 001132 000000 > 43 001134 005007 CLR PC ; go to > address zero > 44 001136 120427 CMPB R4,#0 ; dummy > operation, pipelined but not executed > 44 001140 000000 > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > From owad at applefritter.com Tue Mar 21 16:40:21 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Apple Network Servers Message-ID: <200003212243.OAA09547@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >::What "is" a network server 500, and what is the upgrade (very unlikely to >::be worth $200)? > >A Network Server 500 is one of Apple's two ill-fated Unix server models. Not to mention thge _very_ ill-fated Apple Networ Server 300, which never made it past the prototype stage. My web site, Applefritter, is hosted on one of these machines. "The ANS 300 had the same architecture as the 500 & 700, but was intended to be an easily rack-mounted unit intended for Internet/FTP/Mail/Web serving, departmental and small database servers, etc, and consequently less expansion. It has two removable drive bays and one fixed drive (behind the LCD). Much of the serviceability & security was abandoned for the sake of size. For instance, there is no obvious way to secure the drive bays, or the motherboard tray from being removed. The power supply is fixed and would be slow to field repair. The fixed hard drive mounted behind the LCD is very hard to reach, etc. The key lock on the front controls only the "on, lock, service" options, unlike the multiple key lock controlling those functions plus doors and security on the full size 500/700 units. These issues eventually ceased to be important, however, as the ANS 300 never shipped. "Code named Deep Dish, the ANS 300 is essentially an Apple Network Server without the large drive array. As a consequence, the computer is only four rack-units high. The logic board is in the bottom of the unit on a slide-out tray. There are two standard ANS removable trays on the right side of the unit's front. The Deep Dish also has one fixed internal drive, and the floppy drive is fixed, as well. Apple also had plans to produce an external drive array for the machine, reason for the ultrawide SCSI port above the PCI slots." If anybody wants more information, see . Tom ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Mar 21 16:54:12 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs Message-ID: <20000321225412.8332.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bill Dawson wrote: > Hello again, > > Well, due to the overwhelming response for these 2-port and 4-port Ehernet > fanouts (actually, none) I'm posting this one more time. Interesting devices if you need one, and quite inexpensive. > Perhaps someone can tell me, on list, why no one on this list has any > interest in these. Maybe everyone is saving their money for iOpeners d8^) I have plenty of vintage networking equipment, but I also have plenty of 10BaseT and 10Base2 transceivers to bring them onto my network. Eventually, I'd like to have a single segment of 10Base5 cable, but just for the antiquity factor. I only have one vampire tap at the moment (on a transceiver that has interchangable media connectors - I have two bases and one actual tap). It's not critical, so as I spot really ancient Ethernet stuff I grab it, but items that are _that_ old don't float by as often as they used to. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Mar 21 12:04:21 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: New drives in the M3100/M76 In-Reply-To: <00b901bf9370$d6600360$68e893c3@proteus> Message-ID: <200003212301.e2LN1Bj20651@admin.cgocable.net> > From: "Peter Pachla" > To: > Subject: Re: New drives in the M3100/M76 > Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 18:08:39 -0000 > Organization: WinterMute > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Hi Paul, > > > I also had problems with a IBM 0661 disk. I was unable to > >get it to 512 byte sectors from 524/sector using either > >RZDISK (VMS) or TEST 75 on my 3100-M76. > > I've also had trouble with these drives. I have a pair in my PS/2-9595 which > work fine in that machine, but won't work reliably in my Celeron based > machine (they work for a while, then suddenly become inaccessible for no > apparent reason). > > I'd love to know why this is. 1. This is early first MR drives and will not work (marble dropping noise) if the too long screws grounds out the disc pack casing. That is reason because of so much insulation tapes wrapped up disc pack itself. 2. They run hot, cool them. Don't take them apart ever. There is few parts that is used once and can't be used again on reassembly. IBM does sells the rebuild kit with new circuit boards and few parts required but cost as much as a new drive itself when new. But this is only temporary solution and somewhat chancy and is last resort to get data off. If anyone happens to have these dead 0661 and 0662's, I'm interested in them for tear-down analysis. IBM does have jumper info on their website for these. :-) Needs to use LLF on any peecee controller or use a desktop or tower IBM ps/2 to convert them to standard 512 per sector type. I have done that once in a while successfully. Cheers! Wizard > TTFN - Pete. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Mar 21 17:18:06 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps... In-Reply-To: ; from af-list@wfi-inc.com on Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 02:27:16PM -0800 References: <200003212048.MAA26388@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20000321181806.A9823@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 02:27:16PM -0800, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Side note: does anyone know how to send a plain LF with a WYSE 60, without > changing the personality to a different terminal? My setup cycles through > like this for assigning the Enter key: CR...CRLF...CR...TAB...I got around > it last night by switching personalities to one of the DG modes. TAB?! Well, maybe this is too obvious, but you've tried CTRL/J right? John Wilson D Bit From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Mar 21 17:33:28 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Apple Network Servers In-Reply-To: <200003212243.OAA09547@goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from Tom Owad at "Mar 21, 0 05:40:21 pm" Message-ID: <200003212333.PAA15864@oa.ptloma.edu> ::If anybody wants more information, see ::. Quite interesting. It looks like the ANS300 got its 604/200 from an ANS700. Can I just rip the chip out of another unit and substitute it, or do I still need the complete 200MHz board? I'm also particulary impressed with the Spartan page on your site (for those in the dark, this was a hardware add-on for the Commodore 64 that turned it into an Apple II): I thought it was just a hardware emulator, but its feature set was really greater than the sum of its parts. Fascinating! -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- SOFTWARE -- formal evening attire for female computer analysts. ------------ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 21 17:08:20 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted)" (Mar 21, 21:48) References: Message-ID: <10003212308.ZM10530@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 21, 21:48, Tony Duell wrote: > > else, long before I posted my request. I could fix about anything else on > > the PET, but I draw the line at grinding the top off to poke at individual > > flip-flops in an IC :-) FWIW, the first job I had in > > Really, kids these days..... Well, I once ripped the metal lids off a few ceramic DRAMs to use them as optical image sensors (ISTR an article in BYTE, I think it was, years ago about that), and there's a story about how Ferranti designers determined that a particular ULA design worked perfectly if only you could get at the gates with a microprobe to add a pullup in a certain place, but these SRAMs are plastic and I've run out of fuming nitric acid :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 21 17:33:09 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps... In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Mar 21, 2000 02:27:16 PM Message-ID: <200003212333.PAA16386@shell1.aracnet.com> > I should have been a little more specific with my description. I have the > peripheral boards sitting around me and am just playing with one at a time > for fun. I do have a bootable system already, but I'm just playing with > them for the fun/experience... OK, I'm still a little confused. Do you have Boot ROMs in the system, or even when it's put together in the 'bootable order', do you still have to type in the bootstrap? > I double checked to make sure that they had unique CSR > assignments...besides the SLU, will the system expect any of the > peripherals to have standard addresses/vectors? The bootstrap expects to be seeing the controller at a specific address. I believe a MSCP disk should be at 1772150 for the first controller (I'm not at home, so this is from memory, and my memory stinks). > I'll try to push the bootstrap via serial tonight, though I'm using a WYSE > 60 and it's pretty easy to type it out. I've typed the TMSCP bootstrap a few to many times for my taste. Though now I have a board in the system that included TMSCP support. This is the only reason I'd use a PC as a console. > Side note: does anyone know how to send a plain LF with a WYSE 60, without > changing the personality to a different terminal? My setup cycles through > like this for assigning the Enter key: CR...CRLF...CR...TAB...I got around > it last night by switching personalities to one of the DG modes. I'm afraid I don't. My personal recommendation is get a DEC terminal, but then I've got anywhere from a dislike to downright hatred for non-DEC terminals. Zane From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Tue Mar 21 18:02:40 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Spartan emulator Message-ID: <027001bf9391$f11cca00$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> I don't know how they got there, but I remember seeing a large pile of these Spartans at Active Surplus, on Queen Street in Toronto (well-known to any Hogtown hackers) in late '88 or '89. Given Active's inventory policy ("If you don't buy it, we'll leave it lying around") they may still be there. Cheers, Mark. -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 4:48 PM Subject: Re: Apple Network Servers > >I'm also particulary impressed with the Spartan page on your site (for those >in the dark, this was a hardware add-on for the Commodore 64 that turned it >into an Apple II): I thought it was just a hardware emulator, but its feature >set was really greater than the sum of its parts. Fascinating! > >-- >----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu >-- SOFTWARE -- formal evening attire for female computer analysts. ------------ > From donm at cts.com Tue Mar 21 18:05:49 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Televideo TS-802H available Message-ID: A friend of mine has a Televideo TS-802H that he is looking to part with. I was familiar with the machine a few years back, and I'm sure that it is still in good shape. If you are interested, contact Dick Hubbard at 619-229-0955. He will be pleased to hear from anyone who might like the machine. - don From blergh at dds.nl Tue Mar 21 18:10:50 2000 From: blergh at dds.nl (Erik Brens) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps... In-Reply-To: ; from af-list@wfi-inc.com on Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 11:09:58AM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20000322011050.A25579@stronghold.xs4all.nl> On Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 11:09:58AM -0800, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > I'd like to be able to set up the simplest system possible and try to > toggle in a bootstrap. I've played with the ones on metalab (RX01, MSCP) While we're at it, does anybody know how to bootstrap an 11/44 with a RL01 drive attached to it ? I'm trying to boot and install RSX11-M 4.5 from RL01 pack. Sincerely, Erik. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 21 18:09:49 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) In-Reply-To: allisonp@world.std.com "Re: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted)" (Mar 21, 16:45) References: Message-ID: <10003220009.ZM10589@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 21, 16:45, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > I would have thought a 2101 was far too small. These are 4kbit chips. > > Are these single voltage or multiple? 4k? 22pin? sounds like the > semi-4600 and NEC D410 parts, a 4k pseudostatic 200ns cycle and access > under 120ns. I've got a rat load of upd410s. The moto part number > doesn't compute though. uPD410 is 18-pin 0.3" width, 4k x 1, with one ~CE line (the MOS Technology MCS6550 has 2 ~CS and 2 CS lines and it's 0.4" wide). I can't find any data on a 4600 but I assume it's similar. If you're asking about the 6550 I'm looking for, yes it is single 5V rail, but it's 1k x 4 and it's not Motorola. In fact, I'm fairly sure no-one but MOS Technology made them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 21 17:44:56 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps... In-Reply-To: Aaron Christopher Finney "Re: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps..." (Mar 21, 14:33) References: Message-ID: <10003212344.ZM10568@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 21, 14:33, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Thanks Pete, I'll give this a try when I get home tonight. And thanks for > putting the comments in as well! It's nice to see what's going on, that's > kind of what I'm after by playing around with this stuff this way. I've stuffed a few other things on my web site at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/ODT/ A few of the files are bootstraps taken from handbooks or manuals, but several of them are little bits of nonsense I wrote when I first encountered an 11/23, with no OS. Remember I was a beginner and try not to laugh out loud :-) If you think the syntax is a little non-standard, it's because I had to write my own cross-assembler and I hadn't used MACRO-11 much then. No, don't ask me for the source. It was so awful I threw it away :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 21 17:52:19 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs In-Reply-To: Jim Strickland "Re: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs" (Mar 21, 15:24) References: <200003212224.PAA26211@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <10003212352.ZM10574@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 21, 15:24, Jim Strickland wrote: > Couldn't they be used to divide a termination domain? IE the multiport > transceiver sits between two branches of a thin-net network, protecting against > loss of termination on either branch? Obviously they'd still be in the same > collision domain... I don't really see how the fanout units on offer (or my unsuccessful back-to-back device) could do that -- the termination isn't in the transceiver or fanout unit, it's a resistor on the end of the cable. Anyway, it would still only be one termination domain. Or maybe I've misunderstood what you mean? If you mean my back-to-back transceiver idea, yes, if it had worked, you could use it to split a termination domain into two, just like a two-port repeater, or a very simple bridge (except a bridge usually separates collision domains too). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Mar 21 18:18:16 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: Message-ID: <003401bf9394$cfc68500$4b9693c3@proteus> Hi Tony, >>>....TEXED (Text Editor, which had TECO-like commands.... >> Ah yes, "TEXED" I really liked that one.... > I remember writing macros to delete unnecessary spaces and >REM statements from my (over-long) BASIC program.... Yep, it was one of the nicest text editors I've ever used. I'd never spotted the similarity to TECO until you mentioned it....I've only ever run TECO some four or five times, but it felt familiar IYKWIM? > MDOC came as standard with Research Machines CP/M... It was >rather useful, especially for repairing disks with read errors >on them.... Rings a bell, but I can't say I remember the program. > We had a mix of the 2 types. The 'horizontal drive' unit had a >pair of SA400s (IIRC), full height 5.25" drives. The 'vertical >drive' machines had a pair of 2/3rds height Canon drives.... Would I be right in assuming that the machines with SA400s had double sided drives and the ones with Canon drives were single sided? Our "horizontal" machines were all double sided (the top drive was "A:" & "C:" and the bottom was "B:" & "D:") and I'm sure I remember reading that machines with single sided drives were available too. >....The one I found at the rally was the latter type.... I wonder if that's the same machine I spotted? The chap who had it for sale ended up taking it home with him at the end of the day, I'm sure he was someone who used to do the rounds of the rallies. > There were also 'Full Disk' systems (as opposed to 'Mini Disk >Systems') that had an external box with 2 8" drives in them.... Never seen one of those, though I vageuly recall reading something about them in one of the manuals. > I've never actually seen an 8" RML380Z, though. It would be fun >to get one... I'll be keeping my eyes open for a 380Z of any description this rally season....hmm, wonder when Drayton is? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Mar 21 17:44:42 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: Message-ID: <003301bf9394$cf064240$4b9693c3@proteus> Hi Don, > I have CP/M system disks for the RML380Z.... Thanks, I don't have a 380Z at the moment. I'll keep you in mind if I ever track one down. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Mar 21 18:21:43 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: 3com 3server3 References: Message-ID: <003501bf9394$d0991740$4b9693c3@proteus> Hi Mike, > I just came across a wierd computer box. It is labeled >3com 3server3 and has a dc-300 cartridge tape.... I've got a pair of "3Stations" here you can have for the cost of postage if you want, I believe they should boot from the "3Server". TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Mar 21 17:43:24 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: <38D1EA4A.5326DDD6@rdel.co.uk> <000101bf90ef$01952bc0$42e993c3@proteus> <38D4AD6B.39F162C@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: <003201bf9394$cde8eb60$4b9693c3@proteus> Hi, >....though COS rings a bell, so presumably that entire bootrom >including Front Panel was called COS.... I'm not sure....it's been a while. I do recall though that at one point we had a pair of cassette recorders running on the machine, COS had PET like support for them. >....even though we actually justed booted 31K (and later, 56K!) >builds of CP/M.... Our original cassette based system I think had just 16K of RAM. All the CP/M based machines were 32K machines....apart from one which had been mistakenly shipped with 64K. :-) >....Later on, we bought two 480Zs (in black, to match) and a >Memotech MTX512. Never seen the 480Z (except for photos). Those Memotechs were nifty machines. I used to have a pair of 512s and a 500 with the SDX disc upgrade. I wish I'd kept that one now, I've only ever seen the FDX mentioned in the Memotech literature - never the SDX. It was a unit that attached the the "cartridge" port on the left of the machine (same shape as the machine, about 3" wide) and had a BBC like drive attached via a ribbon cable. > At first, two maths teachers were conscripted into teaching >'O' level Computer Studies.... Same at our school. >....which involved talking about core memory and learning BASIC.... Luckily ours were a bit more knowledgable....that said the emphasis was still on stuff like core memory etc since that's what was on the exam paper. > My school only taught Computer Studies for four years, because >teaching about computers was quickly displaced by learning about >computers in other subjects.... I think at my old school the computer science stuff was taken over by the science department after I left. Then later on they created a "computing" department. > CESIL, Computer Education in Schools Instructional Language. >CESIL was hilarious. We had an interpreter for it, written in >BASIC so that it ran many times more slowly than BASIC.... The one we had was a stand alone interpreter, it booted from cassette just like BASIC did. >....despite looking like assembler, with instructions like JIZERO.... I kind of liked it. Although it was too simple to be of any real long term use it was interesting.... But then I'm biased, I know a bunch of high level languages, but I've always been an assembly language programmer by choice. > Absolutely. Our assembler only took 8080 mnemonics, so I continued >using the Front Panel and DATA statements in BASIC. That'll have been the standard CP/M assembler, we had ZASM too which accepted Z80 mnemonics (thank goodness, I've never liked Intel's assembly language syntax). TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 21 18:36:22 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps... In-Reply-To: <20000322011050.A25579@stronghold.xs4all.nl> from "Erik Brens" at Mar 22, 2000 01:10:50 AM Message-ID: <200003220036.QAA25062@shell1.aracnet.com> > While we're at it, does anybody know how to bootstrap an 11/44 with a RL01 drive attached to it ? > > I'm trying to boot and install RSX11-M 4.5 from RL01 pack. > > Sincerely, > Erik. > It should use the same bootstrap as a RL02 drive I believe. Do you have any boot ROMs in the /44? I thought that the RL02 ROMs were pretty much standard. I suspect you can find a copy of a RL02 bootstrap at the Metalab (Sunsite) PDP-11 archive. Zane From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Mar 21 18:51:09 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Spartan emulator Message-ID: <20000322005109.13811.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mark Gregory wrote: > I don't know how they got there, but I remember seeing a large pile of > these Spartans at Active Surplus, on Queen Street in Toronto (well-known to > any Hogtown hackers) in late '88 or '89. Given Active's inventory policy > ("If you don't buy it, we'll leave it lying around") they may still be > there. If anyone researches this, please let me know. > From: Cameron Kaiser > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 4:48 PM > Subject: Re: Apple Network Servers > > > > I'm also particulary impressed with the Spartan page on your site (for > > those in the dark, this was a hardware add-on for the Commodore 64 that > > turned it into an Apple II): I was a beta tester for the Spartan in 1985. Somewhere I've still got my contract with them (all I could find on a casual search of my bookshelves is a copy of the docs). I have the case for one in the basement; I forget what happened to the mainboard. I think it died, or else I wouldn't have stripped the supply for another project. During my testing, I remember running Enchanter on the Apple CPU and Sorcerer on the C-64 CPU, typing a command on one, switching to the other and typing a command there to multi-task the games (since the disks were so slow). Interesting concept, but about 50% the cost of a real Apple. If they ever sold any, it would have been to some serious die-hards. Mostly back then, Apple guys and Commodore guys didn't mix much. Kinda like Atari guys and everybody else. :-) -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Mar 21 18:53:51 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) Message-ID: <20000322005351.14245.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Mar 21, 21:48, Tony Duell wrote: > > > else, long before I posted my request. I could fix about anything > else on > > > the PET, but I draw the line at grinding the top off to poke at > individual > > > flip-flops in an IC :-) FWIW, the first job I had in > > > > Really, kids these days..... > > Well, I once ripped the metal lids off a few ceramic DRAMs to use them as > optical image sensors (ISTR an article in BYTE, I think it was, years ago > about that) Yes! I just repacked my lidless 4116 chips. I only ever got as far as cementing slide-mount covers on one and sticking it in an Apple II at the top of RAM and demonstrating the effect by clearing video RAM then lifting the lid. Many bits sparkled in when light shone on the chip. Now that I have a digital camera, I'll have to take pictures (as soon as I buy/find/make a Mac crossover cable to connect a QuickTake 150 to my Mac). -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Mar 21 18:55:08 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Large qty of GRiD external floppy drives available Message-ID: <20000321185508.B27030@mrbill.net> Going by the goodwill today, they've got a LARGE quantity of external floppy drives (probably 15-20 at least) for the 2260 and 2270 models for $2.95 each. If anybody needs one for their GRiD, let me know, and I'll pick one up for you (already got one for each of my 2270s). They look BRAND NEW - no scratches/wear, and the connectors that plug into the laptop have a little blue plastic bag still over them.... Now, if I could just find a power supply and/or a pen. Bill -- +---------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | +-------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------+-----------------------------------------+ | Version: 3.12 GCS d- s:++ a- C++++ US++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ N++ o K+++ w--- | | O- M-- V- PS PE+ Y+ PGP t+ 5 X- R-- tv+++ b++++ DI++++ D++ G++ e++ h r++ y+ | +--------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------------------------------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Mar 21 19:11:00 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs In-Reply-To: <10003212352.ZM10574@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200003212224.PAA26211@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000321171024.04088870@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I'm confused, aren't these "fan out" units just hubs? --Chuck From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Mar 21 19:20:09 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:17 2005 Subject: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps... In-Reply-To: <200003212333.PAA16386@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > I should have been a little more specific with my description. I have the > > peripheral boards sitting around me and am just playing with one at a time > > for fun. I do have a bootable system already, but I'm just playing with > > them for the fun/experience... > > OK, I'm still a little confused. Do you have Boot ROMs in the system, > or even when it's put together in the 'bootable order', do you still > have to type in the bootstrap? > I double checked to make sure that > they had unique CSR > assignments...besides the SLU, will the system > expect any of the > peripherals to have standard addresses/vectors? No, with the bootroms installed I can boot from the * prompt (ex: * DY [enter]. I was just playing with it with cpu/mem/slu/peripheral cards only. > > The bootstrap expects to be seeing the controller at a specific address. > I believe a MSCP disk should be at 1772150 for the first controller (I'm not > at home, so this is from memory, and my memory stinks). > > > > I'll try to push the bootstrap via serial tonight, though I'm using a WYSE > > 60 and it's pretty easy to type it out. > > I've typed the TMSCP bootstrap a few to many times for my taste. Though now > I have a board in the system that included TMSCP support. This is the only > reason I'd use a PC as a console. I'll check at home; I think I have the adress for the first MSCP controller somewhere myself...let me check that one when I get home. > > Side note: does anyone know how to send a plain LF with a WYSE 60, without > > changing the personality to a different terminal? My setup cycles through > > like this for assigning the Enter key: CR...CRLF...CR...TAB...I got around > > it last night by switching personalities to one of the DG modes. > > I'm afraid I don't. My personal recommendation is get a DEC terminal, but > then I've got anywhere from a dislike to downright hatred for non-DEC > terminals. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Mar 21 19:24:16 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000321171024.04088870@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: These simply provide multiple ports on a single tap. I indicated my interest in them for the thick ethernet segment in my garage, as I only have 3 transceivers tapped into it at the moment. Physically, they just connect to the tapped transciever. On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > I'm confused, aren't these "fan out" units just hubs? > --Chuck > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 21 19:06:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) In-Reply-To: <10003212308.ZM10530@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Mar 21, 0 11:08:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 358 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000322/c1f033be/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 21 19:08:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps... In-Reply-To: <20000321181806.A9823@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Mar 21, 0 06:18:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 295 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000322/a8744894/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 21 19:17:09 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <003201bf9394$cde8eb60$4b9693c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Mar 21, 0 11:43:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2072 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000322/58e16fb7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 21 19:22:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <003401bf9394$cfc68500$4b9693c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Mar 22, 0 00:18:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1590 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000322/c372321a/attachment.ksh From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Mar 21 19:40:47 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! In-Reply-To: <200003220036.QAA25062@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <20000322011050.A25579@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000321204047.00b2b100@mail.30below.com> Howdy All!!! The list disappeared on me on 15 Jan 00, so I had no idea when the list switched over (according to the archives, on 27 Jan 00) and since I've been busier than a one-legged man at a butt-kicking contest, I've not had a chance to research how to get back on the list until now... Anywho, I had mentioned that I might be getting a VAX... Well, I didn't get 1, or even 2, but 5! That's right, 5! Got 'em just a few days ago, but haven't had much of a chance to check 'em out... but I do have 2 VAXSstation 3100 M38's... or... at least enough to make 1 working one out of 'em. There was also a VAXServer (either 3100 or 4000 - at work right now) and 3 -- get this 3 - of the 8-plane grafix boards & enough memory boards to give one machine a full 32Meg! And... I just happen to have a multisync "sync-on-green" Mac-ish monitor that my pal says should work - and he gave me a cable for them, too! I just have to hack in a CDRrom and I'll be able to install VMS, because he gave me all of the media for VMS *and* Ultrix, because the DECServer 5000 (I think... again, I'm at work) is a MIPS box and won't run VMS.... :-) :-) Lotsa Toyz to have fun with... :-) :-) Take care and Glad to see y'all again, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 21 18:51:48 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs In-Reply-To: (message from Aaron Christopher Finney on Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:24:16 -0800 (PST)) References: Message-ID: <20000322005148.27184.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chuck McManis asked: > I'm confused, aren't these "fan out" units just hubs? Aaron Christopher Finney replied: > These simply provide multiple ports on a single tap. I indicated my > interest in them for the thick ethernet segment in my garage, as I only > have 3 transceivers tapped into it at the moment. Physically, they just > connect to the tapped transciever. Which, as Chuck suggests, is a effectively a description of a hub, albeit one that has AUI interfaces rather than 10-base-T. Ethernet hubs are technically multiport repeaters, and are subject to all of the topology and distance limits of repeaters. From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Mar 21 19:47:28 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs Message-ID: <000201bf93a0$943adfc0$8ce3dfd0@cobweb.net> Thanks for the responses. It looks like all are spoken for. If I end up with any left, I'll repost them. Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Mar 21 20:07:45 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000321171024.04088870@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from Chuck McManis at "Mar 21, 2000 05:11:00 pm" Message-ID: <200003220207.UAA18237@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > I'm confused, aren't these "fan out" units just hubs? > --Chuck > Looks like hubs, BUT with AUI ports. So, unless you are networking old workstations that only have aui ports, via drop cables, they probably arent too useful. Plus you would need a bunch of aui drop cables. -Larry LeMay From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 21 20:16:40 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps... In-Reply-To: References: <200003212333.PAA16386@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >No, with the bootroms installed I can boot from the * prompt (ex: * DY >[enter]. I was just playing with it with cpu/mem/slu/peripheral cards >only. Ah, I understand now. Well, except for why you were running without the bootroms installed, but whatever makes you happy... :^) >I'll check at home; I think I have the adress for the first MSCP >controller somewhere myself...let me check that one when I get home. Here, I've got the info handy. The following is from a WQESD Controller manual. The board that the manual came with doesn't support MU:, but newer revisions of the board do. Device Address ------------------- Console 17777560 DU: 17772150 DUB: 17760334 DUC: 17760354 DUD: 17760374 DUE: 17760414 DUF: 17760434 MS: 17772520 MSB: 17772524 MSC: 17772530 MSD: 17772534 DL: 17774400 DY: 17777170 Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 21 20:24:03 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000321204047.00b2b100@mail.30below.com> References: <200003220036.QAA25062@shell1.aracnet.com> <20000322011050.A25579@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: >Howdy All!!! > >The list disappeared on me on 15 Jan 00, so I had no idea when the list >switched over (according to the archives, on 27 Jan 00) and since I've been >busier than a one-legged man at a butt-kicking contest, I've not had a >chance to research how to get back on the list until now... Welcome back! >now) and 3 -- get this 3 - of the 8-plane grafix boards & enough memory >boards to give one machine a full 32Meg! A VAX with more than 16MB, I'm green! Actually I should finally be getting one with more than 16MB one of these days soon. >I just have to hack in a CDRrom and I'll be able to install VMS, because he >gave me all of the media for VMS *and* Ultrix, because the DECServer 5000 >(I think... again, I'm at work) is a MIPS box and won't run VMS.... :-) :-) Most cool. BTW, you just need a CD-ROM that has 512-byte blocks. I've got an external CD-ROM that I got for my Mac Laptop in '95 that works good. I've also simply connected an internal to an internal SCSI cable and power on a VS3100/30m long enough to install VMS. I've a feeling OpenVMS 7.2 will rock on the system with 32MB, as it does pretty good on a 16MB system when you leave out DECwindows. On the DECserver, I'm actually inclined to recommend NetBSD as it's doubtful you've got the Y2k version of Ultrix. Beware a standard install of NetBSD seems to want well over 500MB of HD space. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From owad at applefritter.com Tue Mar 21 20:40:42 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Apple Network Servers Message-ID: <200003220243.SAA11029@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >::If anybody wants more information, see >::. > >Quite interesting. It looks like the ANS300 got its 604/200 from an ANS700. >Can I just rip the chip out of another unit and substitute it, or do I still >need the complete 200MHz board? I really couldn't tell you, but I'll forward you message along to Chuck Goolsbee, the owner, who might be able to help. >I'm also particulary impressed with the Spartan page on your site (for those >in the dark, this was a hardware add-on for the Commodore 64 that turned it >into an Apple II): I thought it was just a hardware emulator, but its feature >set was really greater than the sum of its parts. Fascinating! Thanks! Tom Owad ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Mar 21 21:01:57 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just tried ctrl-J...perfect. Thanks guys... On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > TAB?! > > > > Well, maybe this is too obvious, but you've tried CTRL/J right? > > Unless this is a _very_ strange terminal, ctrl-J is linefeed. Tab would > be ctrl-I. > > Most terminals will send Esc if you type ctrl-[, which is useful on some > VT series units without a real escape key... > > > -tony > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Mar 21 21:53:50 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! References: <200003220036.QAA25062@shell1.aracnet.com> <20000322011050.A25579@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <011001bf93b2$3c022ae0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 12:54 PM Subject: Re: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! > A VAX with more than 16MB, I'm green! Actually I should finally be getting > one with more than 16MB one of these days soon. Should I mention that my Vax 6000-430 has 256Mb? :^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Mar 21 21:56:08 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000321204047.00b2b100@mail.30below.com> <200003220036.QAA25062@shell1.aracnet.com> <20000322011050.A25579@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000321225608.0093e8c0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: >Welcome back! Thanks! >A VAX with more than 16MB, I'm green! Actually I should finally be getting >one with more than 16MB one of these days soon. I *think* I've got enough other boards to populate the others with 16Meg, but I'm not quite sure... My tough parts are hard drives... I've only got 2, an RZ24L & an RZ25. Are there utilities to make a non-DEC hard drive work in a VAX? I need to put in an order for a couple of SCSI drives anyway... and I could get a couple 1 or 2 gig drives at the same time. >Most cool. BTW, you just need a CD-ROM that has 512-byte blocks. I've got >an external CD-ROM that I got for my Mac Laptop in '95 that works good. >I've also simply connected an internal to an internal SCSI cable and power >on a VS3100/30m long enough to install VMS. I've a feeling OpenVMS 7.2 >will rock on the system with 32MB, as it does pretty good on a 16MB system >when you leave out DECwindows. Yea, the CDRom has the "Sector" jumper, so I should be GTG there. I contemplated hooking the CDRom internal, but I wasn't sure how the VMS install was going to like that once I remove the rom and reinstall the RZ24 (as the secondary), so I have a 12" or so internal-type cable that will just reach to the CDROM so I can use the external power supply. (I also have a few AT supplies I could use to power it as well...) I do want to see what the box will do with DECwindows... are there any good spreadsheet/presentation apps for that? Erm... this might be a stretch, but isn't there a Netscape or Mosaic for that too? (I'm not too interested in turning the box into a 'net appliance, but mainly just to show people -- "Look! I got Nutscrape to run on this!" I co-own an ISP, and I'd bet that none of the other ISP's could get that working, so it might make a strange but helpful bragging point - "We support VAXen!") >On the DECserver, I'm actually inclined to recommend NetBSD as it's >doubtful you've got the Y2k version of Ultrix. Beware a standard install >of NetBSD seems to want well over 500MB of HD space. I'll be lucky if I have any time before 2001 to tinker with the server... I have a house to build this year, and what (very) little leisure time I'll have will prolly be spent puttering with VMS. I'll post more when I know more - I'm at work (will be for another hour or so) and all the stuff's at home. Well, gotta go or I'll *never* get outta here... Roger "Merch" Merhcberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 21 22:04:39 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) Message-ID: <200003220404.XAA24732@world.std.com> <> Are these single voltage or multiple? 4k? 22pin? sounds like the <> semi-4600 and NEC D410 parts, a 4k pseudostatic 200ns cycle and access <> under 120ns. I've got a rat load of upd410s. The moto part number <> doesn't compute though. < Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Geoff Roberts wrote: > From: "Zane H. Healy" > > A VAX with more than 16MB, I'm green! Actually I should finally be > getting > > one with more than 16MB one of these days soon. > > Should I mention that my Vax 6000-430 has 256Mb? Yeah, well my VAX 6000-530 has twice that- 512 MB! Top that! :-) Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From nerdware at laidbak.com Tue Mar 21 22:45:50 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: GRiD 2270s In-Reply-To: <20000321001410.A24030@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> References: <20000321003701.B15257@mrbill.net>; from Bill Bradford on Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 12:37:01AM -0600 Message-ID: <200003220446.WAA11887@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 00:14:10 -0700 From: "Shawn T. Rutledge" To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: GRiD 2270s Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 12:37:01AM -0600, Bill Bradford wrote: > > Anybody know where I can get info on these? I picked up 3 of them > > today, complete with batteries, but no power supplies or pens (they can > > be used as a "flat pad" mode, with a pen, or the screen flips up to > > reveal the keyboard). > > If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's a 386, and I think the pen is an RF > type, not sure if it's the kind that requires batteries. The one like > this that I saw with the flip-up screen was labeled AST, but that's > because they bought GRiD. I think they still support them, so if all else > fails maybe you can get pens from them. I'm not sure if it's compatible > with other powered pens like the Dauphin one. > > I might be interested in buying or trading for one of them. > > -- The pens do use batteries, but from reading some posts on a GRiD users' page, it seems that any standard Wacom pen will work. Paul Braun Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Mar 21 23:53:55 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps... In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 01:08:48AM +0000 References: <20000321181806.A9823@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000322005355.A11032@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 01:08:48AM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > TAB?! > > > > Well, maybe this is too obvious, but you've tried CTRL/J right? > > Unless this is a _very_ strange terminal, ctrl-J is linefeed. Tab would > be ctrl-I. Sure, I wasn't saying TAB is ^J, I was expressing disbelief that the Wyse terminal has a setting to make the RETURN key generate TAB. That's twisted! > Most terminals will send Esc if you type ctrl-[, which is useful on some > VT series units without a real escape key... Yeah, ^[ comes in handy, since on current PC keyboards the real Esc key is a long way from the home keys. I wish there were a similar easy way to get the \ character, since it seems no two keyboards have that in the same place. John Wilson D Bit From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Mar 22 00:12:16 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! References: Message-ID: <016501bf93c5$938d13c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard W. Schauer" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 3:05 PM Subject: Re: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! > On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > From: "Zane H. Healy" > > > A VAX with more than 16MB, I'm green! Actually I should finally be > > getting > > > one with more than 16MB one of these days soon. > > > > Should I mention that my Vax 6000-430 has 256Mb? > > Yeah, well my VAX 6000-530 has twice that- 512 MB! Top that! :-) ROFL. I thought I was the only one that kept a pet one of these. Good on ya! Where'd you score that one & what's the rest of the setup? Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Mar 22 00:14:49 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: GRiD 2270s In-Reply-To: <200003220446.WAA11887@garcon.laidbak.com>; from Paul Braun on Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 10:45:50PM -0600 References: <20000321003701.B15257@mrbill.net>; <20000321001410.A24030@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <200003220446.WAA11887@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <20000321231448.C24030@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 10:45:50PM -0600, Paul Braun wrote: > Date sent: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 00:14:10 -0700 > From: "Shawn T. Rutledge" > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: GRiD 2270s > Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > On Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 12:37:01AM -0600, Bill Bradford wrote: > > > Anybody know where I can get info on these? I picked up 3 of them > > > today, complete with batteries, but no power supplies or pens (they can > > > be used as a "flat pad" mode, with a pen, or the screen flips up to > > > reveal the keyboard). > > > > If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's a 386, and I think the pen is an RF > > type, not sure if it's the kind that requires batteries. The one like > > this that I saw with the flip-up screen was labeled AST, but that's > > because they bought GRiD. I think they still support them, so if all else > > fails maybe you can get pens from them. I'm not sure if it's compatible > > with other powered pens like the Dauphin one. > > > > I might be interested in buying or trading for one of them. > > > > -- > > The pens do use batteries, but from reading some posts on a GRiD > users' page, it seems that any standard Wacom pen will work. Excellent. This implies the dig. tablet is made by Wacom, and maybe the XFree86 driver will work with it. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Get money for spare CPU cycles at http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 22 00:16:17 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000321225608.0093e8c0@mail.30below.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20000321204047.00b2b100@mail.30below.com> <200003220036.QAA25062@shell1.aracnet.com> <20000322011050.A25579@stronghold.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: >I *think* I've got enough other boards to populate the others with 16Meg, >but I'm not quite sure... My tough parts are hard drives... I've only got >2, an RZ24L & an RZ25. Are there utilities to make a non-DEC hard drive >work in a VAX? I need to put in an order for a couple of SCSI drives >anyway... and I could get a couple 1 or 2 gig drives at the same time. OpenVMS V7.2 is a lot more forgiving about that than say V5.5, however, there is no guarentee until you try it. If your best system is a VAXstation 3100 M38 you're probably limited to 1GB on the *BOOT* disk. I'm sure this isn't a Truism, but I've *never* had problems with plugging a SCSI drive from a Mac into a piece of DEC gear. >I do want to see what the box will do with DECwindows... are there any good >spreadsheet/presentation apps for that? Erm... this might be a stretch, but There is at least one spreadsheet'ish app available, though I've no idea how good it is. No idea on the Presentation apps. For Word Processing there is DECwrite. >isn't there a Netscape or Mosaic for that too? (I'm not too interested in >turning the box into a 'net appliance, but mainly just to show people -- >"Look! I got Nutscrape to run on this!" I co-own an ISP, and I'd bet that >none of the other ISP's could get that working, so it might make a strange >but helpful bragging point - "We support VAXen!") OK, both run, BUT the current version of Netscape is V3.01 :^( I'm not about to count Mozilla (besides I don't believe it supports VAX), as I've tried it on my AlphaStation 500/333 and it had major problems (of course a friend at work showed me it on Linux and it had major problems). Another problem with Mozilla is it seems to require more than 8-bit colour. I've no idea how Netscape or Mosaic run on a VAX though, as none of my VAXen are running DECwindows, and only one is running TCP/IP. For that matter I think only one of the Alpha's (the AlphaStation 500/333) is currently running DECwindows. >>On the DECserver, I'm actually inclined to recommend NetBSD as it's >>doubtful you've got the Y2k version of Ultrix. Beware a standard install >>of NetBSD seems to want well over 500MB of HD space. > >I'll be lucky if I have any time before 2001 to tinker with the server... I >have a house to build this year, and what (very) little leisure time I'll >have will prolly be spent puttering with VMS. Not as exciting of piece of hardware as a VAX that's for sure. I've had my pair of 5000/133's for about four months now, and haven't gotten beyond booting NetBSD on one, and Ultrix on the other (I'll be combining them into one system running NetBSD). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 20 17:11:06 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Mos Technology RAM wanted In-Reply-To: John Honniball "Re: Mos Technology RAM wanted" (Mar 20, 13:23) References: Message-ID: <10003202311.ZM9500@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 20, 13:23, John Honniball wrote: > > On Sun, 19 Mar 2000 21:28:09 GMT Pete Turnbull wrote: > > One of the MCS6550 RAMs has gone west. Does anyone have a spare, or an > > equivalent, for sale? It's a 22-pin 1024 x 4 200ns static RAM. > > I'll have to check the RAMs in the spare PET that I > keep in the garage. Can't remember whether they're SRAMs > or DRAMs in the bigger PETs. Only the oldest 2001-x PETs use those SRAMs. I guess it's time to build that upgrade board (a PAL, a pair of EPROMS, and some 6264s, a 62256, or some cast-off PC cache). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 22 00:28:10 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Terminal Keyboards (was Re: Toggling in PDP-11 Bootstraps...) In-Reply-To: <20000322005355.A11032@dbit.dbit.com> References: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 01:08:48AM +0000 <20000321181806.A9823@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >On Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 01:08:48AM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >> > TAB?! >> > >> > Well, maybe this is too obvious, but you've tried CTRL/J right? >> >> Unless this is a _very_ strange terminal, ctrl-J is linefeed. Tab would >> be ctrl-I. > >Sure, I wasn't saying TAB is ^J, I was expressing disbelief that the Wyse >terminal has a setting to make the RETURN key generate TAB. That's >twisted! Wyse terminals are twisted!!! >> Most terminals will send Esc if you type ctrl-[, which is useful on some >> VT series units without a real escape key... > >Yeah, ^[ comes in handy, since on current PC keyboards the real Esc key is >a long way from the home keys. I wish there were a similar easy way to get >the \ character, since it seems no two keyboards have that in the same >place. That's not my problem, though mine's associated. My problem is the | (pipe) character! Depending on which Auspex and which site, I might be using a DEC, HP, Wyse, NCR or Esprit terminal at work, or telneting in from RS/6k, Sun, HP, or PC. At home it's a little easier as all the terminals are DEC (normally VT420's). All told I think I regularly use 6-10 significantly different keyboards. Don't even get me started on 'xterm-like' apps and Telnet/rsh sessions! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 22 00:52:30 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! In-Reply-To: References: <011001bf93b2$3c022ae0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: >On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Geoff Roberts wrote: >> From: "Zane H. Healy" >> > A VAX with more than 16MB, I'm green! Actually I should finally be >> getting >> > one with more than 16MB one of these days soon. >> >> Should I mention that my Vax 6000-430 has 256Mb? > >Yeah, well my VAX 6000-530 has twice that- 512 MB! Top that! :-) > >Richard Schauer >rws@enteract.com Good Grief! The most any Alpha on my home cluster has is 112MB and my best Alpha only has 96MB because the RAM is so blasted expensive! I've found that a Alpha with 80MB is about the same as a VAX with 16MB, and don't even consider DECwindows in less than 80MB (and you won't see good performance till 112MB). The 96MB machine is a 21164/333 feels about like the 21064/225 with 112MB under general workstation use (though running a processor intensive app would be faster). Now if I could just get another 128MB, a 24-bit graphics card, and 100Mbit Ethernet that 21164 would scream, BUT it would basically be cheaper to just get a newer/better system :^( I've not gone after any of the big VAXen I've had a shot at because they'd take space away from my PDP's :^) Besides I suspect that much RAM is overkill for a home VAX :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 22 02:26:44 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) In-Reply-To: Allison J Parent "Re: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted)" (Mar 21, 23:04) References: <200003220404.XAA24732@world.std.com> Message-ID: <10003220826.ZM11158@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 21, 23:04, Allison J Parent wrote: > <> Are these single voltage or multiple? 4k? 22pin? sounds like the > <> semi-4600 and NEC D410 parts, a 4k pseudostatic 200ns cycle and access > <> under 120ns. I've got a rat load of upd410s. The moto part number > <> doesn't compute though. > < > uPD410 .4" 22pin three voltage 4Kx1, seperate din and dout, CE and CS/ three > voltage pseudostatic. replaces Semi-4200 and 4402, fastest version to 80ns > access. (it was a screamer for 1978). Oops, I misread the data book -- you're right of course, uPD410 is .4" -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 22 02:34:48 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs In-Reply-To: Eric Smith "Re: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs" (Mar 22, 0:51) References: <20000322005148.27184.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <10003220834.ZM11164@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 22, 0:51, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck McManis asked: > > I'm confused, aren't these "fan out" units just hubs? > > Aaron Christopher Finney replied: > > These simply provide multiple ports on a single tap. I indicated my > > interest in them for the thick ethernet segment in my garage, as I only > > have 3 transceivers tapped into it at the moment. Physically, they just > > connect to the tapped transciever. > > Which, as Chuck suggests, is a effectively a description of a hub, albeit one > that has AUI interfaces rather than 10-base-T. Ethernet hubs are technically > multiport repeaters, and are subject to all of the topology and distance > limits of repeaters. I'm not sure these are repeaters, though. So a signal that's sent from a station on one of the AUI interfaces would go onto the wire, but I'm not sure that it would get back (directly) to the other AUI interface(s). Anyone know? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 22 02:41:53 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs In-Reply-To: Allison J Parent "Re: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs" (Mar 21, 23:05) References: <200003220405.XAA25032@world.std.com> Message-ID: <10003220841.ZM11174@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 21, 23:05, Allison J Parent wrote: > > < Anyway, it would still only be one termination domain. Or maybe I've > > Anyone ever heard of a DELNI? Ok, it was an 8 port AUI to AUI with a 9th > for AUI to h4000 fat eithernet cable. Popular use was for cobbing 4-7 > system together locally if you didn't have the BIG backbone. Logial > equivilent of a 8 port hub used for 10bt. Yes, never knowingly used one, but I've seen them. 3Com made an 8-port(? or 6?) AUI repeater -- one of my friends used one as his hub for a while, I believe. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl Wed Mar 22 02:28:49 2000 From: macieks at pzl-okecie.com.pl (Maciej S Szymanski) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! References: <3.0.1.32.20000321204047.00b2b100@mail.30below.com> <200003220036.QAA25062@shell1.aracnet.com> <20000322011050.A25579@stronghold.xs4all.nl> <3.0.1.32.20000321225608.0093e8c0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <38D88441.C13C8526@pzl-okecie.com.pl> > I do want to see what the box will do with DECwindows... are there any good > spreadsheet/presentation apps for that? Erm... this might be a stretch, but > isn't there a Netscape or Mosaic for that too? (I'm not too interested in > turning the box into a 'net appliance, but mainly just to show people -- > "Look! I got Nutscrape to run on this!" I co-own an ISP, and I'd bet that > none of the other ISP's could get that working, so it might make a strange > but helpful bragging point - "We support VAXen!") > Netscape 3.x is shipped with OpenVMS 7.2 as standard browser (earlier was Mosaic) so both should work. > I do want to see what the box will do with DECwindows... are there any > good spreadsheet/presentation apps for that? I suppose there should be VMS version of Xess... About memeory - I've 24Meg of ram and 7.2 with DECWindows works fine as for me. Maciek From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Mar 22 02:28:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs In-Reply-To: <20000321225412.8332.qmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >I'd like to have a single segment of 10Base5 cable, but just for the antiquity >factor. I only have one vampire tap at the moment (on a transceiver that has >interchangable media connectors - I have two bases and one actual tap). It's >not critical, so as I spot really ancient Ethernet stuff I grab it, but items >that are _that_ old don't float by as often as they used to. I have I think a couple vampire taps new in the box. Comes from making offers for the whole box/pallet/etc, something I both regret doing and not doing. Maybe I will list a few odd bits once I get that kind of stuff sorted out a bit more. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 22 03:31:01 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) In-Reply-To: Allison J Parent "Re: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted)" (Mar 21, 23:04) References: <200003220404.XAA24732@world.std.com> Message-ID: <10003220931.ZM11214@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 21, 23:04, Allison J Parent wrote: > If I knew pinout I could find an industry part that would work save for > pinout or package. No offence, but if I can't get a drop-in replacement, I'd rather leave the original as-is, and build my little expansion board. The idea was to disable internal RAM (and perhaps ROM) and put a decoder on the expansion connector (the old PETs have an internal expansion connector). The expansion would carry up to 32K RAM, and one or more EPROMs holding different versions of BASIC (the original doesn't work properly with IEEE-488 disks and some other devices). Anyway, here's the pinout: MCS6550 1024 x 4 SRAM A0 1 22 Vss (0V) A1 2 21 CS1 A2 3 20 CS2 A3 4 19 ~CS3 A4 5 18 ~CS4 A5 6 17 Vdd (+5V) phi2 7 16 D3 A6 8 15 D2 A7 9 14 D1 A8 10 13 D0 A9 11 12 R/~W -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Mar 22 03:31:51 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? In-Reply-To: <10003220841.ZM11174@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: Allison J Parent "Re: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs" (Mar 21, 23:05) <200003220405.XAA25032@world.std.com> Message-ID: I now have a few IBM 5150 Personal Computers, latching on to the nicest ones today along with I think the correct original keyboards. I have to wonder if I am not perhaps getting a little dotty in my old age. What the heck am I going to do with them? Anybody else have some? What can they do? How about a 5100 (sounded like something I might want to hoard if I see one)? From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Mar 22 06:11:37 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) In-Reply-To: <10003212308.ZM10530@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:08:20 GMT Pete Turnbull wrote: > Well, I once ripped the metal lids off a few ceramic DRAMs to use them as > optical image sensors (ISTR an article in BYTE, I think it was, years ago > about that), and there's a story about how Ferranti designers determined > that a particular ULA design worked perfectly if only you could get at the > gates with a microprobe to add a pullup in a certain place, but these SRAMs > are plastic and I've run out of fuming nitric acid :-( Then there's the transputer prototype that only worked when under strong illumination (like in a probe/microscope setup) and didn't work in the dark (like with the lid on). Solution: omit the lid, and supply a car headlamp bulb to provide enough light. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Mar 22 06:54:31 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? Message-ID: <50.3015f6c.260a1c87@aol.com> In a message dated 3/22/00 4:40:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, mikeford@socal.rr.com writes: > I now have a few IBM 5150 Personal Computers, latching on to the nicest > ones today along with I think the correct original keyboards. I have to > wonder if I am not perhaps getting a little dotty in my old age. What the > heck am I going to do with them? > > Anybody else have some? What can they do? > > How about a 5100 (sounded like something I might want to hoard if I see one)? > ive had a 5150 apparently unused in its box for about 2 years now. perfect condition and even has the cardboard shipping disks in its drives! didnt get the documentation though. just recently i found a 5160 in its box as well. its a later model with half height floppy drive. it does have a few cards installed, but machine is extremely clean and no dusty insides. i assume it was purchased as a spare and seldom used, if it ever was. i also have that original pc keyboard with its crappy layout still in its box. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm --You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think-- From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 22 07:33:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >I *think* I've got enough other boards to populate the others with 16Meg, > >but I'm not quite sure... My tough parts are hard drives... I've only got > >2, an RZ24L & an RZ25. Are there utilities to make a non-DEC hard drive That would make a fine VAX, and that enough disk to run fair amount of stuff under VMS. > >work in a VAX? I need to put in an order for a couple of SCSI drives > >anyway... and I could get a couple 1 or 2 gig drives at the same time. > > OpenVMS V7.2 is a lot more forgiving about that than say V5.5, however, > there is no guarentee until you try it. If your best system is a > VAXstation 3100 M38 you're probably limited to 1GB on the *BOOT* disk. For that series stay under 1.07gb for the bootable media as the dumper uses the boot roms if VMS crashes. the boot roms are the limiter. Any other disk can be larger than 1gb. A good small vax config is a 1gb for the OS and core software and anything you have for a user disk. Though I'd point out that 1gb and VMS7.2 full install is still going to leave 600+mb unused! > >I do want to see what the box will do with DECwindows... are there any good > >spreadsheet/presentation apps for that? Erm... this might be a stretch, but > > There is at least one spreadsheet'ish app available, though I've no idea > how good it is. No idea on the Presentation apps. For Word Processing > there is DECwrite. Look at TPU for word processing, it's very configureable. LSE is even better. For Spreadsheet there are a few DECcalc being one. There is a fair amount of DECUS and other free software for VMS out there. > >isn't there a Netscape or Mosaic for that too? (I'm not too interested in > >turning the box into a 'net appliance, but mainly just to show people -- > >"Look! I got Nutscrape to run on this!" I co-own an ISP, and I'd bet that > >none of the other ISP's could get that working, so it might make a strange > >but helpful bragging point - "We support VAXen!") There are several browsers, newreaders and also server software out there for VMS. I believe Apache too. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 22 07:36:35 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Good Grief! The most any Alpha on my home cluster has is 112MB and my best > Alpha only has 96MB because the RAM is so blasted expensive! I've found > that a Alpha with 80MB is about the same as a VAX with 16MB, and don't even > consider DECwindows in less than 80MB (and you won't see good performance > till 112MB). The 96MB machine is a 21164/333 feels about like the For alpha maybe. I'm used to running decwin on MVII with 9meg! The largest vax I have (memory wise) is 24 and then 16mb and for VAX/VMS thats a decent amount of ram unless your doing large matrix math or big databases. Allison From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Wed Mar 22 07:50:54 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For all the pissing and moaning today about IBM and Microsoft, let's face it - the original IBM and then the XT are collectibles. They were an evolutionary step up from the 8-bit 8080's and Z-80's which dominated the days of "hobbyist" computing (with apologies to the 6502 and 6800 crowds). The 5150 was initially postioned as a hobby or home computer: cassette tape interface built in, numeric processor support optional (and expensive), and no floppy drives available when it first came out. IBM under-anticipated the demand (just like Radio Shack did) when people started using the 5150 for "business" purposes. When IBM began producing a personal computer, it legitimized them for corporate America. I even recall reading articles back in the late 70's about strategies for sneaking computer purchases past the eyes of the MIS department (who didn't "approve" of these "toy" computers coming in and not under their control). But when a computer had the IBM name on it (and cost as much as it did), MIS departments had to develop a way to deal with them. And we all know what happened after that! So IMHO, if you wish to have a computer collection, you should have a 5150 as an example of a significant milestone (millstone?)in small computer / data processing history. What can you do with them? Does the term "boat anchor" have any meaning for you? Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 4:32 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? I now have a few IBM 5150 Personal Computers, latching on to the nicest ones today along with I think the correct original keyboards. I have to wonder if I am not perhaps getting a little dotty in my old age. What the heck am I going to do with them? Anybody else have some? What can they do? How about a 5100 (sounded like something I might want to hoard if I see one)? From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Mar 22 08:00:25 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: AXP vs VAX (was Re: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!!) Message-ID: <20000322140025.6171.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Good Grief! The most any Alpha on my home cluster has is 112MB and my best > Alpha only has 96MB because the RAM is so blasted expensive! I've found > that a Alpha with 80MB is about the same as a VAX with 16MB, and don't even > consider DECwindows in less than 80MB (and you won't see good performance > till 112MB). Ow... that's scary. I am in the process of _finally_ building up this AXP133 "no-name" board I bought a few years ago. Currently, it has 64Mb because parity 16Mb SIMMs are stunningly expensive. I lucked out at the Dayton Computerfest a couple of weeks ago and cleaned a vendor out at $15 per stick. Now my Alpha has 64Mb, my LX will have 64Mb and even my main SPARC-IPX. It's been a memorable experience. ;-) The Alpha has on it an older version of NetBSD. I'm considering upping it to the latest rev or going to RedHat. At the moment, I can't seem to get the 3C509 working, but I'd rather use something a little more advanced like a Tulip-based 10/100 NIC or even a 3C905C (since we have them around the office). One other piece of fun with this "no-name" board was locating compatible cache RAM. I stripped several 486s before I found a set of chips that would let the Alpha come up. The manual mentions a list of preferred vendors. Believe it. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Mar 22 08:58:16 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? Message-ID: <20000322145816.4814.qmail@web614.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bob Stek wrote: > For all the pissing and moaning today about IBM and Microsoft, let's face > it - the original IBM and then the XT are collectibles... > What can you do with them? Does the term "boat anchor" have any meaning for > you? I have a 5150 that is serving in its original capacity as a user-interface for a Northwest Instruments bus analyzer box. The analyzer has a 68000 pod and captures the last 4096 bus accesses. I used it once to prove to our engineer that his 68010 design on our VAXBI COMBOARD(R) was screwing up byte accesses (he swapped UDS and LDS causing byte reads to pick up whatever happened to be the last upper or lower byte through the buffers - writes worked perfectly because the 680x0 writes the same data to D0-D7 as D8-D15 on a byte access). The 5150 itself came with an IBM-badged Epson something-X-80 printer, an original mono card (the monitor is long since dead) and some form of multi-expansion card (not an AST six-pack, but something like it). It also has some form of 10-20Mb hard disk in it. I realize this isn't how IBM shipped them, but it is how Northwest Instruments did. ISTR the price paid way back when was $5K for the PC and $20K for the analyzer, but the analyzer price _might_ have included the PC. We boxed the whole thing up at work in a gutted VAX-11/725 cabinet. At one point, we used 11/730s as production machines (linking binaries for our product under a non-primary version of VMS) and it was cheaper to buy 11/725s and harvest parts than it was to buy individual boards for the 11/730 (and a lot cheaper than DEC maintenance). I don't have my working 11/725 anymore, but it was a fun machine when I had it. With a bit of boot tape optimization, it came up almost as fast as our 11/750. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Mar 22 08:52:04 2000 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) Message-ID: <802568AA.005188A3.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > Yes, I'm sure that's true. The 2114 PETs are rarer, but I can't see any If you used to service the things, I have to take your word for it, but I've seen several with 2114s and I don't think I've seen any with 6550s. Oh well. [...] > Oh, I did that to check that it was definitely the RAM and not anything > else, long before I posted my request. I could fix about anything else on OK, so you are sure that it is the chip that's dead. I still think it's a fault that affects the whole chip... > The PET determines the RAM size by reading and writing a byte in every > block and assumes it has found the top of RAM when it gets an error. It > was just coincidence that one of the 5th pair was the one to go. So I now > have a 7K PET, because I put the faulty IC in the top pair. It reports > 6143 bytes free. I'm afraid I have a minor quibble here. To write a byte to every block would be pointless as a memory diagnostic, although it would indeed find the top of RAM. However, the PET actually writes two test patterns to EVERY BYTE. PETs I've seen with dodgy RAM come up with really strange numbers of bytes free, not just multiples of 256 minus 1. Early PETS like yours (and my first one) leave 36 in each location when they've finished. Goodness knows why. Later PETS seem to be using 01010101 and 10101010 as test patterns, since they leave 170 (decimal) in each location. (As an aside: vintage PET users, on old machines at least, will have come across the corrupted links in the program listing, which instead of pointing to the next line point somewhere silly. The most common crash then is a program listing that just prints $ signs and doesn't respond to the stop key... Can't remember what keyword 170 gives you on the newer machines, though. When I was involved in developing an adventure game for the BBC micro, we typed a lot of the text on an 8032 (can't remember why). 170 ended up as the token for "HA" when we compressed it. Result - a corrupted address made the machine laugh at us. No, this was not intentional!) ********** Expansion box. The old PETs don't AFAIK have the internal expansion connector - they have an edge connector sticking out at one side. Very useful for toggling RESET with a pair of tweezers! That aside, on this edge connector are brought out most of the block select lines from the 74154 I mentioned in my previous post. In particular, brought out are lines 1 to 7, 9, A and B. It takes only three four-input AND gates to re-encode any eight of these you choose into three upper address lines for a 62256. On my PET I used 2 to 7, 9 and A, and got 32K main memory (including the 8K it already had) plus 8K of RAM in ROM space, above the screen memory. My suggestion is: disable the select to the upper 4K of memory within your PET, and encode lines 1 to 7 and 9. This will give you 32K of main memory, several spare 6550s, and 4K of RAM above the screen. Essentially, you will have a 4K PET fully expanded. Power, as always, comes from the second cassette port... Note block select 0 is NOT present on the expansion connector, so you can't readily disable all the internal RAM. Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From acierno at mindspring.com Wed Mar 22 09:49:18 2000 From: acierno at mindspring.com (mark acierno) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: need help reading a paper tape.... Message-ID: Is there anyone out there who can help me. I have a paper tape (for the KIM-1) and I need it read. I dont care too much what format I get back - disk, paper print out, ect. would all be fine. I thought I had arranged to have it read by a commercial classic computer support person --- but they now tell me that it will be quite some time before they can get to my request. The tape has real historical value ( although not much real $$ value) and I would like to get it read as soon as possible. If you can help me or know of someone who can -- please e-mail me. thank you mark acierno ------- ICQ 40439199 http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Mar 22 09:52:54 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) Message-ID: <20000322155254.23227.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > > > > > Yes, I'm sure that's true. The 2114 PETs are rarer, but I can't see any > > If you used to service the things, I have to take your word for it, but I've > seen several with 2114s and I don't think I've seen any with 6550s. Oh well. I was never a service tech, but here in Ohio, the _only_ static PETs I've ever seen were 6550-based. I didn't know there were any with 2114s until I joined this list. It explains another Tramiel story. When the VIC-20 was being designed, Jack told his engineers that he didn't care how much memory the new computer used, but it had better take the 2114 chips that C= had a warehouse full of. > The old PETs don't AFAIK have the internal expansion connector - they have an > edge connector sticking out at one side. Very useful for toggling RESET with > a pair of tweezers! Don't miss! -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From marvin at rain.org Wed Mar 22 09:58:40 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? References: Allison J Parent "Re: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs" (Mar 21, 23:05) <200003220405.XAA25032@world.std.com> Message-ID: <38D8EDB0.1492684F@rain.org> Mike Ford wrote: > > I now have a few IBM 5150 Personal Computers, latching on to the nicest > ones today along with I think the correct original keyboards. I have to > wonder if I am not perhaps getting a little dotty in my old age. What the > heck am I going to do with them? > > Anybody else have some? What can they do? I started keeping a few 5150s a while ago and probably have 4 or 5. The one *I* like the best is one built in the UK that still has the box with it. Someone mentioned a number of years ago that the collectables will really be something with a brand name rather than no-name clones. I agree, and while I have a few clones, they are typically the first to go when I need space. > How about a 5100 (sounded like something I might want to hoard if I see one)? Nice machine that came in at least two flavors, APL/BASIC and BASIC. I don't know if there was a 5100 with APL only. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Mar 22 10:06:07 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 01:31:51AM -0800 References: <200003220405.XAA25032@world.std.com> <10003220841.ZM11174@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20000322110607.A12844@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Mar 22, 2000 at 01:31:51AM -0800, Mike Ford wrote: > I now have a few IBM 5150 Personal Computers, latching on to the nicest > ones today along with I think the correct original keyboards. I have to > wonder if I am not perhaps getting a little dotty in my old age. What the > heck am I going to do with them? > > Anybody else have some? What can they do? I still have mine from 1983. It doesn't do much any more (occasionally I fire it up because it has the only copy of something), but with the V20 CPU I put it in way back when, it can run the E11 Demo version and be the world's slowest PDP-11. And it's perfectly fine for editing and stuff. About 7 years ago I built a hand-wired multi-I/O card when my Quadboard died and anyway I was sick of having to use an expansion cab just so I could have two MFM disks and a floppy drive w/o burning up the 62.5W PSU. That was an IDE port, SCSI-1, 384 KB of SRAM, 4 COM ports, an FDC, and an EPROM with a bare-bones IDE BIOS, all on a full length prototype card, and I got a 170 MB IDE disk. I had to upgrade to PC-DOS V3.3 because the PC-DOS V2.0 I'd been using for ten years couldn't use disk partitions as multiple drives, and anyway it was FAT12 only so even on my ST-225 the clusters were huge. Anyway that freed up lots of slots so that the thing fit easily in one box, even with both an HGC+ and a CGA at once, plus a hardware EMS card and an NE1000. > How about a 5100 (sounded like something I might want to hoard if I see one)? I remember reading an article (in Byte?) about that thing ages ago, it sounds like a bigger version of HP's HP-85 only with APL instead of BASIC? Anything that strange has *got* to be worth grabbing! Speaking of which, has the HP-85 totally disappeared? My dad had one briefly when I was in high school, I remember using it to cheat on my calc homework and brought in adding machine tapes with the graphs I didn't feel like sketching by hand... And there was one in the computer showroom on the second floor of the Harvard Coop. But I haven't seen one since. IIRC, the BASIC "PRINT" statement *really* meant print, if you wanted the display to be on the tiny CRT you had to use something else, "TYPE" maybe? The way they stuck the BASIC keywords on single keys (like a ZX81, only you didn't have to use them) was crazy, they were scattered all over the place. But the combination of a cartridge tape drive, adding machine printer, and teeny tiny CRT was kind of neat, each part was low-end crap but if you put them all together it was a pretty usable system. John Wilson D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 22 10:15:08 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Mar 22, 2000 08:36:35 AM Message-ID: <200003221615.IAA22361@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Good Grief! The most any Alpha on my home cluster has is 112MB and my best > > Alpha only has 96MB because the RAM is so blasted expensive! I've found > > that a Alpha with 80MB is about the same as a VAX with 16MB, and don't even > > consider DECwindows in less than 80MB (and you won't see good performance > > till 112MB). The 96MB machine is a 21164/333 feels about like the > > For alpha maybe. I'm used to running decwin on MVII with 9meg! The > largest vax I have (memory wise) is 24 and then 16mb and for VAX/VMS thats > a decent amount of ram unless your doing large matrix math or big > databases. Allison, What version of VMS, and how much other stuff? My MV3 has 16MB with OpenVMS V7.2, DECnet Phase V, and TCPIP V5, and has plenty of free RAM. I've no idea how much space DECwindows takes in memory on a VAX. However, a Alpha with 80MB or 96MB running the same stuff I am on the MV3, and DECwindows is swapping, with 112MB it isn't normally swapping. What can I say, I like *all* my programs in RAM all the time. Zane From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Mar 22 10:15:13 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:18 2005 Subject: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? In-Reply-To: <38D8EDB0.1492684F@rain.org> Message-ID: > Mike Ford wrote: > > > > I now have a few IBM 5150 Personal Computers, latching on to the nicest > > ones today along with I think the correct original keyboards. I have to > > wonder if I am not perhaps getting a little dotty in my old age. What the > > heck am I going to do with them? > > > > Anybody else have some? What can they do? I have one here in Bristol with the Expansion Chassis as well as a genuine IBM EGA card (and monitor). The expansion unit is for the two hard disks that were fitted as an upgrade to an XT-class machine. Do? You want it to do something? :-) -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 22 10:22:32 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Mar 22, 2000 08:33:33 AM Message-ID: <200003221622.IAA22866@shell1.aracnet.com> > Look at TPU for word processing, it's very configureable. LSE is even > better. For Spreadsheet there are a few DECcalc being one. There is a > fair amount of DECUS and other free software for VMS out there. OK, now I'm curious. I can see TPU and LSE for text editing, but word processing? Or are you then sending the result through TeX, or something like TeX? Wasn't DECcalc a commercial offering along the lines of DECwrite? If so, as far as I know it's not available to hobbyists. I'd love to know about a good spreadsheet available to hobbyists myself! > There are several browsers, newreaders and also server software out there > for VMS. I believe Apache too. Good point, Apache is now available, although I gather one VMS there are better solutions still for a VMS based web server. There is a very nice newsreader for DECwindows who's name escapes me. Supposidly 'tin' will compile on VMS, but it looks like it's been *years* since anyone succeeded. I've gotten it to compile and link, but it won't do anything. If you're like me and prefer 'elm' for eMail, then give PTmail V4.1.2 a try. Zane From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Mar 22 10:42:06 2000 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) Message-ID: <802568AA.005B9B61.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > I was never a service tech, but here in Ohio, the _only_ static PETs I've > ever seen were 6550-based. I didn't know there were any with 2114s until > I joined this list. It explains another Tramiel story. When the VIC-20 > was being designed, Jack told his engineers that he didn't care how much > memory the new computer used, but it had better take the 2114 chips that > C= had a warehouse full of. Never heard that story before. PETs up to and including 8096 used a couple or more of 2114s for video RAM, though. >> The old PETs don't AFAIK have the internal expansion connector - they have an >> edge connector sticking out at one side. Very useful for toggling RESET with >> a pair of tweezers! > > Don't miss! If I've got to the point where I need to hit RESET, it doesn't matter. Occasionally I corrupted I/O registers and disabled the interrupts that serviced the keyboard. You'd better not miss when toggling IRQ with the tweezers! Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 22 10:46:57 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: AXP vs VAX (was Re: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!!) In-Reply-To: <20000322140025.6171.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 22, 2000 06:00:25 AM Message-ID: <200003221646.IAA24802@shell1.aracnet.com> > Ow... that's scary. I am in the process of _finally_ building up this AXP133 > "no-name" board I bought a few years ago. Currently, it has 64Mb because > parity > 16Mb SIMMs are stunningly expensive. I lucked out at the Dayton Computerfest > a couple of weeks ago and cleaned a vendor out at $15 per stick. Now my Alpha > has 64Mb, my LX will have 64Mb and even my main SPARC-IPX. It's been a > memorable experience. ;-) > > The Alpha has on it an older version of NetBSD. I'm considering upping it > to the latest rev or going to RedHat. At the moment, I can't seem to get > the 3C509 working, but I'd rather use something a little more advanced like > a Tulip-based 10/100 NIC or even a 3C905C (since we have them around the > office). It looks like you're in better shape than I am generally since I prefer running OpenVMS on them. However, I've got a AlphaStation 200 4/233 and a Multia running OpenBSD and I've had Tru64 and NetBSD on the AlphaStation 500/333. The AS200 I believe has 20MB of RAM, and functions quite happily for a firewall, NAT, web and FTP. The Multia I believe has 16MB, and is rather slow (well it's noted for being slow), and swaps a lot during compiles (the only thing I use it for). I've only barely tried Tru64 V5 (Hobbyist) and NetBSD 1.4.1 on the AS500. In 96MB RAM NetBSD seemed happy (again no X-Windows though as it doesn't support the video card), but I didn't feel 96MB was really enough for Tru64. Since you're running Sparc's with 64MB, to give you an idea of what I consider acceptable performance, I don't consider Solaris 2.6 acceptable in 64MB, but it's quite nice in 96MB on my Sparc 2. In the case of OpenBSD I was able to get a Tulip-based 10/100 NIC working with no problem in the AS200. I *can not* get one working under OpenVMS, it looks like I need a real DE500 to work under OpenVMS. On the RAM, I *always* check for used True Parity 72-pin SIMMS when I'm anywhere that has used RAM. I've never seen used 32MB SIMMS, but grab the 8MB and 16MB SIMMS that I find in pairs. I did buy one new pair of 32MB SIMMS, but that was before they got so expensive and hard to find. > One other piece of fun with this "no-name" board was locating compatible > cache RAM. I stripped several 486s before I found a set of chips that > would let the Alpha come up. The manual mentions a list of preferred > vendors. Believe it. > > -ethan You're lucky. The AS500 requires custom RAM, the only way I'm going to get it more memory is by spending about $500 :^( Zane From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Mar 22 11:21:29 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: AXP vs VAX (was Re: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!!) Message-ID: <20000322172129.29328.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > Ow... that's scary. I am in the process of _finally_ building up this > > AXP133 "no-name" board... > Since you're running Sparc's with 64MB, to give you an idea of what I > consider acceptable performance, I don't consider Solaris 2.6 acceptable in > 64MB, but it's quite nice in 96MB on my Sparc 2. I don't consider 64Mb acceptable if I'm running CDE. It's horrible. Things are sluggish but not painful under OpenWindows. I'd run 96Mb if I could, but I don't have the Sbus expansion card. I used to use a Sparc 5/110 as my primary desktop machine at Lucent, and with 256Mb of memory the only ongoing problem I had was with starting up Netscrape - it took much more than a minute. Once I was in, things were ducky. I could even run ViCE at 200% 6502-emulation speed with no problems. > In the case of OpenBSD I was able to get a Tulip-based 10/100 NIC working > with no problem in the AS200. I *can not* get one working under OpenVMS, it > looks like I need a real DE500 to work under OpenVMS. I bought a real DE500 once, just for this box (not that it runs OpenVMS due to other driver issues). It never left the show with me; I think I set down the bag and walked off. Not the first time, but usually I remember while I'm still in the same aisle. > On the RAM, I *always* check for used True Parity 72-pin SIMMS when I'm > anywhere that has used RAM. Me too. I'm up to five pair of 16Mb and one pair of 4Mb. :-( > You're lucky. The AS500 requires custom RAM, the only way I'm going to get > it more memory is by spending about $500 :^( Ow! Speaking of custom RAM, I notice that on diagnostics, the IPX detects 33bit vs 36bit parity SIMMs. Are there any performance differences? I only have three or four 33bit 16Mb SIMMs. I was just wondering if there were any benefit to take these to 36bit. I plan to use the IPX as our primary DNS server at work, so enhanced reliability is a benefit. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Mar 22 11:25:21 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Resetting C= machines with non-standard implements (was Re: Are you sure the 6550 is dead?) Message-ID: <20000322172521.7808.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > > > >> The old PETs don't AFAIK have the internal expansion connector - they have > >> an edge connector sticking out at one side. Very useful for toggling > >> RESET with a pair of tweezers! > > > > Don't miss! > > If I've got to the point where I need to hit RESET, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter to the software, but there's the risk of shorting things together that don't want to be shorted. > Occasionally I corrupted I/O registers and disabled the interrupts that > serviced the keyboard. You'd better not miss when toggling IRQ with the > tweezers! I used to reset my development C-64 with a paperclip that I bent into a hair-pin shape with a .3" or .4" spacing to fit the proper pins on the expansion connector. I even melted a drinking straw and wrapped it around the top of the loop for a "handle". It was my programmer's reset for years. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 22 12:22:01 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: IBM 5100 Re: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? In-Reply-To: <38D8EDB0.1492684F@rain.org> References: <200003220405.XAA25032@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000322132201.463fb638@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:58 AM 3/22/00 -0800, Marvin wrote: > > > >> How about a 5100 (sounded like something I might want to hoard if I see one)? > >Nice machine that came in at least two flavors, APL/BASIC and BASIC. I don't >know if there was a 5100 with APL only. I've never heard of one but it was listed by IBM as an option (BASIC only, APL only or BASIC & APL). I have the IBM sales data here somewhere. Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 22 12:32:37 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: HP 85 Re: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? In-Reply-To: <20000322110607.A12844@dbit.dbit.com> References: <200003220405.XAA25032@world.std.com> <10003220841.ZM11174@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000322133237.0ab7158e@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:06 AM 3/22/00 -0500, John wrote: > >> How about a 5100 (sounded like something I might want to hoard if I see one)? > >I remember reading an article (in Byte?) about that thing ages ago, it >sounds like a bigger version of HP's HP-85 only with APL instead of BASIC? >Anything that strange has *got* to be worth grabbing! A 5100 is definitely worth grabbing! > >Speaking of which, has the HP-85 totally disappeared? My dad had one >briefly when I was in high school, I remember using it to cheat on my calc >homework and brought in adding machine tapes with the graphs I didn't feel >like sketching by hand... And there was one in the computer showroom >on the second floor of the Harvard Coop. But I haven't seen one since. >IIRC, the BASIC "PRINT" statement *really* meant print, if you wanted the >display to be on the tiny CRT you had to use something else, "TYPE" maybe? >The way they stuck the BASIC keywords on single keys (like a ZX81, only you >didn't have to use them) was crazy, they were scattered all over the place. >But the combination of a cartridge tape drive, adding machine printer, and >teeny tiny CRT was kind of neat, each part was low-end crap but if you put >them all together it was a pretty usable system. Nope, there are still lots of HP 85s out there chugging away everyday. They're still widely used as test equipment controllers. I have about 10 of them here. The great thing about the 85 was that you got a usable display, keyboard, printer and a mass storage device in one compact unit. And you could add HP-IB, serial or parallel interfaces, special functions or more memory just by plugging them into the back. You didn't have to be a software engineer, hardware engineer or test equipment engineer to set one up and use it. Their math was also much more accurate than the run of the mill computer. Joe From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Mar 22 11:49:29 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Memory expansion In-Reply-To: <20000322172129.29328.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Mar 22, 2000 09:21:29 am" Message-ID: <200003221749.MAA10778@bg-tc-ppp540.monmouth.com> > > Since you're running Sparc's with 64MB, to give you an idea of what I > > consider acceptable performance, I don't consider Solaris 2.6 acceptable in I've got a couple of Spar2's (ELC, IPX, Sparcstion2 clone) that could use more memory. Anyone got a source of SBUS memory expansion for the latter two. The ELC max's out at 64. > > Speaking of custom RAM, I notice that on diagnostics, the IPX detects 33bit > vs 36bit parity SIMMs. Are there any performance differences? I only have > three or four 33bit 16Mb SIMMs. I was just wondering if there were any > benefit to take these to 36bit. I plan to use the IPX as our primary DNS > server at work, so enhanced reliability is a benefit. Interesting... I picked up 4 33 bit SIMMS at a show for $70 and put 'em in an ELC. Works (like a dog) when running CDE. I'd like to try KDE on it to see how that works with OpenBSD, NetBSD or Linux. (And I'd go to FreeBSD when they get a Sparc port released). > > -ethan Bill From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Mar 22 12:04:29 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Resetting C= machines with non-standard implements (was Re: Are you sure the 6550 is dead?) In-Reply-To: <20000322172521.7808.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Mar 22, 0 09:25:21 am" Message-ID: <200003221804.KAA07216@oa.ptloma.edu> ::I used to reset my development C-64 with a paperclip that I bent into a ::hair-pin shape with a .3" or .4" spacing to fit the proper pins on the ::expansion connector. I even melted a drinking straw and wrapped it around ::the top of the loop for a "handle". It was my programmer's reset for ::years. I've seen people burn out 64's that way too :-P -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- FORTUNE: Don't abandon hope: your Tom Mix decoder ring arrives tomorrow. --- From jmd at infinet.com Wed Mar 22 11:58:32 2000 From: jmd at infinet.com (jmd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: AXP vs VAX (was Re: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!!) References: <20000322140025.6171.qmail@web617.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38D909C8.809C910A@infinet.com> Ethan > > The Alpha has on it an older version of NetBSD. I'm considering upping it > to the latest rev or going to RedHat. At the moment, I can't seem to get > the 3C509 working, but I'd rather use something a little more advanced like > a Tulip-based 10/100 NIC or even a 3C905C (since we have them around the > office). I have 1 DEC 205 NIC if you are interested. ISA slot. jeff From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 22 12:28:54 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! In-Reply-To: <200003221615.IAA22361@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: > What version of VMS, and how much other stuff? My MV3 has 16MB with OpenVMS > V7.2, DECnet Phase V, and TCPIP V5, and has plenty of free RAM. I've no > idea how much space DECwindows takes in memory on a VAX. However, a Alpha > with 80MB or 96MB running the same stuff I am on the MV3, and DECwindows is > swapping, with 112MB it isn't normally swapping. What can I say, I like > *all* my programs in RAM all the time. When I first started running DW it was a MVII with 5mb running VMS4.7 (may old ba23!). During those years I could get later versions easily as as I was DEC internal. I eventually got as far as VMS5.5 and 5 users (run VS2000 as DWTs) all in 13mb of ram. Ran ok. The current one runs quite nicely on the M76 in 16mb using a VT1200. The smallest config I DW on memorywise was a 730 with 4mb, and one RA80. It was slow but then no amount of memory was going to help a great amount. There is no comparisn with Alpha memory sizes and Microvax. It has a lot to do with basic word size and how memory is used. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 22 12:34:26 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! In-Reply-To: <200003221622.IAA22866@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: > OK, now I'm curious. I can see TPU and LSE for text editing, but word > processing? Or are you then sending the result through TeX, or something You could use tex or RNO, I had a set of scripts that would do the desired operation. the script language was TECO with many added extensions. > like TeX? Wasn't DECcalc a commercial offering along the lines of DECwrite? > If so, as far as I know it's not available to hobbyists. I'd love to know > about a good spreadsheet available to hobbyists myself! Dunno, check decus, check simtel. > Good point, Apache is now available, although I gather one VMS there are > better solutions still for a VMS based web server. There is a very nice > newsreader for DECwindows who's name escapes me. Supposidly 'tin' will > compile on VMS, but it looks like it's been *years* since anyone succeeded. > I've gotten it to compile and link, but it won't do anything. If you're like > me and prefer 'elm' for eMail, then give PTmail V4.1.2 a try. Elm eww. I like Vaxmail, I'd rther use that. News reader isn't that FreeForte or some such? On the whole it's possible to port any unix app to VMS if the IO is well behaved. At most you need a shim inbetweeen. The first kermit I'd used was a unix port, pain to install but worked ok. Allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Mar 22 12:54:23 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: AXP vs VAX (was Re: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!!) Message-ID: <20000322185423.11862.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> --- jmd wrote: > Ethan > I have 1 DEC 205 NIC if you are interested. ISA slot. How much? -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From dogas at leading.net Wed Mar 22 13:44:33 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: OSI bliss... Message-ID: <000401bf9437$5b431ba0$ca646464@dogclient01> Wow. Hi everyone. A hot tip, a long drive, lots of digging, and a pocket full of kryptonite turned up an OSI C3C12 yesterday! It's a 4 component system including the CD2 8" floppys, a big CD23 Shugart SA4000 harddrive, and a Hazeltine terminal that's OSI branded (neat.) It sports a 17 slot backplane with a 525, 590, CSS cpu+ (that is cracked), and 3 522's now in it. I found another box of boards that had 2 510's (my favorite), a 555, 2 550's, 2 470's, and 3 520's, and a CA-18E ((on a 550 board)?) that hints at level III networking) Also got a bunch of software like os-65u v1.43 timeshare, ( w/mputil...) Looks like it can handle 3 users maybe. And there are boxes of disks I haven't even gone through yet. The documentation was a wonderful find too. Most of it is preliminary docs of things like the: Ohio Scientific Multiple User Computer System Manual C2-8p Users Manual C3 Setup and Operations Manual (with the C3 Utilities and Demo disks (!!!)) OS-DMS Shugart SA4000 servicing info OS-65u Ref Manual a *huge* binder of tech and sales newsletters and a real cool OSI Servicing Data book for *many* of the osi boards from 470-594 and cii and cIII systems Then the ghost of classiccmp-past infused and led me back to a dark dusty workbench where I scored 3 boxes of molex connectors that I needed desperately. Oh, I found a Motorola EXORmacs system in the same pile too. yipee! My home is smaller. One happy ccmper signing off... ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 22 13:47:36 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs In-Reply-To: <10003220834.ZM11164@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> (pete@dunnington.u-net.com) References: <20000322005148.27184.qmail@brouhaha.com> <10003220834.ZM11164@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20000322194736.3328.qmail@brouhaha.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > I'm not sure these are repeaters, though. So a signal that's sent from a > station on one of the AUI interfaces would go onto the wire, but I'm not > sure that it would get back (directly) to the other AUI interface(s). It had better, or you don't have a functional ethernet, because two of the nodes can't talk to each other. Also, the nodes have to be in the same collision domain, so there's not really anything to be saved by using some wacky scheme where the nodes can't talk to each other. The only "multiport transceiver" I've ever used was a DELNI, and it most certainly was in fact a multiport repeater. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 22 13:51:20 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:31:51 -0800) References: Allison J Parent "Re: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs" (Mar 21, 23:05) <200003220405.XAA25032@world.std.com> Message-ID: <20000322195120.3352.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mike Ford wrote: > How about a 5100 (sounded like something I might want to hoard if I see one)? I own one which I've never even seen. :-( They're fairly hard to come by, and tend to be expensive. Unless you can find one from someone who doesn't realize that they are "collectable". The 8K static RAM cards are apparently the same as those used in several IBM systems at that time, including the System/32. Unfortunately System/32 boxes are even harder to find than the 5100. From jmd at infinet.com Wed Mar 22 14:39:38 2000 From: jmd at infinet.com (jmd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: AXP vs VAX (was Re: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!!) References: <20000322185423.11862.qmail@web613.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38D92F8A.EC38CF7E@infinet.com> Ethan > > --- jmd wrote: > > Ethan > > I have 1 DEC 205 NIC if you are interested. ISA slot. > > How much? $5.00 jeff From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Mar 22 15:02:34 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: OSI bliss... In-Reply-To: <000401bf9437$5b431ba0$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: Very jealous... Have fun.... Still searching for an intact C8p or c8p-df... George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Mike wrote: > Wow. Hi everyone. > > A hot tip, a long drive, lots of digging, and a pocket full of kryptonite > turned up an OSI C3C12 yesterday! It's a 4 component system including the > CD2 8" floppys, a big CD23 Shugart SA4000 harddrive, and a Hazeltine > terminal > that's OSI branded (neat.) It sports a 17 slot backplane with a 525, 590, > CSS cpu+ (that is cracked), and 3 522's now in it. I found another box of > boards that had 2 510's (my favorite), a 555, 2 550's, 2 470's, and 3 520's, > and a CA-18E ((on a 550 board)?) that hints at level III networking) Also > got a bunch of software like os-65u v1.43 timeshare, ( w/mputil...) Looks > like it can handle 3 users maybe. And there are boxes of disks I haven't > even gone through yet. > > The documentation was a wonderful find too. Most of it is preliminary docs > of things like the: > Ohio Scientific Multiple User Computer System Manual > C2-8p Users Manual > C3 Setup and Operations Manual (with the C3 Utilities and Demo disks > (!!!)) > OS-DMS > Shugart SA4000 servicing info > OS-65u Ref Manual > a *huge* binder of tech and sales newsletters > and a real cool OSI Servicing Data book for *many* of the osi boards > from 470-594 and cii and cIII systems > > Then the ghost of classiccmp-past infused and led me back to a dark dusty > workbench where I scored 3 boxes of molex connectors that I needed > desperately. > > Oh, I found a Motorola EXORmacs system in the same pile too. yipee! > > My home is smaller. One happy ccmper signing off... > > ;) > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > > > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 22 14:52:49 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) In-Reply-To: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk "Re: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted)" (Mar 22, 14:52) References: <802568AA.005188A3.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <10003222052.ZM11661@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 22, 14:52, Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > Expansion box. > > The old PETs don't AFAIK have the internal expansion connector - they have an > edge connector sticking out at one side. Very useful for toggling RESET with a > pair of tweezers! Yes, I know :-) Mine has the edge connector, not the expansion block. > That aside, on this edge connector are brought out most of the block select > lines from the 74154 I mentioned in my previous post. In particular, brought > out are lines 1 to 7, 9, A and B. > > It takes only three four-input AND gates to re-encode any eight of these you > choose into three upper address lines for a 62256. Seems like the hard way to do it... > My suggestion is: disable the select to the upper 4K of memory within your PET, > and encode lines 1 to 7 and 9. This will give you 32K of main memory, several > spare 6550s, and 4K of RAM above the screen. Essentially, you will have a 4K > PET fully expanded. I was actually thinking of replacing the 74154 with a socket, to get access to all the signals I'd want -- I could enable (or not) all the RAM that way, and use the internal ROMs. It would only require one 22V10; and I would prefer to use several ROMs (probably 27256s) for the alternate BASICs. I'd take the data lines from the edge connector, probably. If you look at the PET circuit, you'll see the data lines to the edge connector are buffered, and the control to that buffer is hardwired (via AND gates and an inverter) to several of the SEL block selects from the 74154; similarly, the RAM buffers are hardwired to SEL0 and (via an OR, a NAND, and a link) SEL1. So you can't put replacement RAM on the expansion connector without doing something about that 74154... Plus, the SEL lines relevant to the ROMs aren't present on the edge connector, but they are on the 74154. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From bill at chipware.com Wed Mar 22 15:27:42 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: 2532 EPROM pin-out Message-ID: <001901bf9445$74cdec90$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Could some kind soul post the pin-out of a 2532 4Kx8 EPROM? Thanks, Bill From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 22 15:43:58 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: AXP vs VAX (was Re: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!!) In-Reply-To: <20000322172129.29328.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Mar 22, 2000 09:21:29 AM Message-ID: <200003222143.NAA29901@shell1.aracnet.com> > I don't consider 64Mb acceptable if I'm running CDE. It's horrible. Things > are sluggish but not painful under OpenWindows. I'd run 96Mb if I could, > but I don't have the Sbus expansion card. I used to use a Sparc 5/110 as > my primary desktop machine at Lucent, and with 256Mb of memory the only > ongoing problem I had was with starting up Netscrape - it took much more > than a minute. Once I was in, things were ducky. I could even run ViCE > at 200% 6502-emulation speed with no problems. I don't know, I found 64MB w/CDE running Solaris 2.6 Server to be to painful for words, yet with 96MB it's fine even running Netscape. Sure Netscape is slow, but so is the machine. On a related note, a Dual 400Mhz w/256MB RAM, and UDMA/33 HD running Solaris 7 and Netscape 4.7 is the absolute fastest I've seen Netscape run, period. I'd like a good Sparc, but then I look at what it would cost to get a better system than that dual Celeron and just shake my head. Zane From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 22 15:58:47 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: 2532 EPROM pin-out In-Reply-To: <001901bf9445$74cdec90$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Could some kind soul post the pin-out > of a 2532 4Kx8 EPROM? Which one TI or moto or ? Allison From bill at chipware.com Wed Mar 22 16:32:05 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: 2532 EPROM pin-out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001a01bf944e$73712ca0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > > Could some kind soul post the pin-out > > of a 2532 4Kx8 EPROM? > > Which one TI or moto or ? Egad! They have different pin-outs by manufacturer?!?! Uh... it has an 'S' on it that looks like two 'C's hooked together, one upsidedown. Is that Signetics? From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 22 16:52:57 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Mar 22, 2000 01:34:26 PM Message-ID: <200003222252.OAA03844@shell1.aracnet.com> > > like TeX? Wasn't DECcalc a commercial offering along the lines of DECwrite? > > If so, as far as I know it's not available to hobbyists. I'd love to know > > about a good spreadsheet available to hobbyists myself! > > Dunno, check decus, check simtel. Checking DECUS is painful at best, there doesn't seem to be any kind of an index, at least not that I've found. I think it was the Freeware CD that I found something at. Check simtel?!?!? I remember the old Simtel-20 DOS archive, but what are you refering to? > Elm eww. I like Vaxmail, I'd rther use that. News reader isn't that > FreeForte or some such? What can I say, elm is what I got started on. I think the Newsreader is MXRN, it came off the internet solutions for OpenVMS CD-ROM. Isn't FreeForte a Windows app? I'm still trying to find a decent text based newsreader for VMS that doesn't puke, I got one running that looked like it might be OK, but it pukes on the number of newsgroups my ISP carries, before it ever gets through the alt. hierarchy. It's wierd, when using VMS I prefer primarily text based apps, while under UNIX I prefer GUI apps (except 'elm' and 'tin'). Zane From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Mar 22 17:46:28 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! In-Reply-To: <200003222252.OAA03844@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "Mar 22, 0 02:52:57 pm" Message-ID: <200003222346.PAA12088@oa.ptloma.edu> ::What can I say, elm is what I got started on. I think the Newsreader is ::MXRN, it came off the internet solutions for OpenVMS CD-ROM. Isn't ::FreeForte a Windows app? I'm still trying to find a decent text based ::newsreader for VMS that doesn't puke, I got one running that looked like it ::might be OK, but it pukes on the number of newsgroups my ISP carries, before ::it ever gets through the alt. hierarchy. Tried nn? Its threading is a bit odd but it works wonderfully and it's very fast. I've endlessly patched mine to restrict the groups the newsreader asks about to certain hierarchies, for AUTHINFO-style NNTP authentication, and a few other things. nn-7 will support "proper" threading but I kinda like the threading the way it is. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my favourite commercial is on TV." ------- From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 22 17:42:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! In-Reply-To: <200003222252.OAA03844@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > > like TeX? Wasn't DECcalc a commercial offering along the lines of DECwrite? > > > If so, as far as I know it's not available to hobbyists. I'd love to know > > > about a good spreadsheet available to hobbyists myself! > > > > Dunno, check decus, check simtel. > Checking DECUS is painful at best, there doesn't seem to be any kind of an > index, at least not that I've found. I think it was the Freeware CD that I > found something at. I don't ahve their archice on my system so there is little I can do for you short of making the inquery for you. > Check simtel?!?!? I remember the old Simtel-20 DOS archive, but what are > you refering to? Try FTP://www.SIMTEL.NET > What can I say, elm is what I got started on. I think the Newsreader is > MXRN, it came off the internet solutions for OpenVMS CD-ROM. Isn't > FreeForte a Windows app? I'm still trying to find a decent text based it is but they had one similar for vax and decwin. > newsreader for VMS that doesn't puke, I got one running that looked like it > might be OK, but it pukes on the number of newsgroups my ISP carries, before > it ever gets through the alt. hierarchy. With the constant changes to the web and the need to use the latest browser plus have both Nyetscrap and Internetexploder anything for the vax is likely to puke. Look at the bright side using a PC to surf the web is ok. Why? Both do little with lots of flash and real work gets done elsewhere. ;) > It's wierd, when using VMS I prefer primarily text based apps, while under > UNIX I prefer GUI apps (except 'elm' and 'tin'). Same here. then again I prefer anything that hides unix as it's unlike everything else I am ultra comfortable with. Allison From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 22 17:58:33 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: IBM Corporate Songbook Message-ID: <20000322235833.47519.qmail@hotmail.com> Does anybody know if IBM still prints up copies of their famous (infamous?) corporate songbook? Furthermore, can anybody buy one. That is someting I want to do: Buy a IBM Corporate Songbook, & go to a *Macintosh Expo*, & bust out singing! (I know, I'm sadistic. Thank you. I've worked very hard to become so!) ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 22 17:56:52 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) In-Reply-To: <10003222052.ZM11661@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Mar 22, 0 08:52:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1001 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000322/3b8cbdb6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 22 17:58:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: 2532 EPROM pin-out In-Reply-To: <001901bf9445$74cdec90$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Mar 22, 0 04:27:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 247 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000322/0a331b26/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 22 18:08:53 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! In-Reply-To: <200003222346.PAA12088@oa.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Mar 22, 2000 03:46:28 PM Message-ID: <200003230008.QAA12569@shell1.aracnet.com> > ::What can I say, elm is what I got started on. I think the Newsreader is > ::MXRN, it came off the internet solutions for OpenVMS CD-ROM. Isn't > ::FreeForte a Windows app? I'm still trying to find a decent text based > ::newsreader for VMS that doesn't puke, I got one running that looked like it > ::might be OK, but it pukes on the number of newsgroups my ISP carries, before > ::it ever gets through the alt. hierarchy. > > Tried nn? Its threading is a bit odd but it works wonderfully and it's very > fast. I've endlessly patched mine to restrict the groups the newsreader > asks about to certain hierarchies, for AUTHINFO-style NNTP authentication, > and a few other things. nn-7 will support "proper" threading but I kinda > like the threading the way it is. Is it available on OpenVMS? If so I might have to give it a try, although I've tried it on UNIX and didn't like it. Zane From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Wed Mar 22 16:16:05 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Resetting C= machines with non-standard implements (was Re: Are you sure the 6550 is dead?) References: <200003221804.KAA07216@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <000501bf945e$8a80d980$4deb93c3@proteus> Hi, >> I used to reset my development C-64 with a paperclip that I >>bent into a hair-pin shape.... ....fit the proper pins on the >>expansion connector.... > > I've seen people burn out 64's that way too :-P Quite, I've got to say this is an EXTREMELY BAD way of resetting a C64 in my experience. At one software company I worked at in 1986 we made up reset switches for our C64s to save wear and tear on them - we were using the machines in pairs; one to assemble/edit code, the other to test the code (which needed frequent resetting). Some of these had the switch attached to the user port, the rest had it connected to the reset line on the serial port (we built little push switches into DIN plugs and just plugged them in). Within three months of these switches being fitted ALL of the machines with reset switches failed (with dead processors). Obvious why really....you don't EVER connect something which is capable of generating voltage spikes to a TTL line - this includes tweezers and paper clips.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Mar 22 18:45:05 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Aaaaahhhh... 'Tis Good to be Back!!! In-Reply-To: <200003230008.QAA12569@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at "Mar 22, 0 04:08:53 pm" Message-ID: <200003230045.QAA11502@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> Tried nn? Its threading is a bit odd but it works wonderfully and it's very ::> fast. I've endlessly patched mine to restrict the groups the newsreader ::> asks about to certain hierarchies, for AUTHINFO-style NNTP authentication, ::> and a few other things. nn-7 will support "proper" threading but I kinda ::> like the threading the way it is. :: ::Is it available on OpenVMS? If so I might have to give it a try, although ::I've tried it on UNIX and didn't like it. I'm not sure. I doubt that it would be too weird to not compile on it, though. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- The idea is to die young as late as possible. -- Ashley Montagu ------------ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 22 18:33:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Resetting C= machines with non-standard implements (was Re: Are you sure the 6550 is dead?) In-Reply-To: <000501bf945e$8a80d980$4deb93c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Mar 22, 0 10:16:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 724 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000323/174490a0/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 22 18:57:47 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: 2532 EPROM pin-out In-Reply-To: "Bill Sudbrink" "RE: 2532 EPROM pin-out" (Mar 22, 17:32) References: <001a01bf944e$73712ca0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <10003230057.ZM11899@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 22, 17:32, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > Could some kind soul post the pin-out > > > of a 2532 4Kx8 EPROM? > > > > Which one TI or moto or ? > > Egad! They have different pin-outs by manufacturer?!?! There's an "industry-standard" arrangement, and a JEDEC arrangement. TI, almost uniquely, chose the "unusual" one for 2532s. > Uh... it has an 'S' on it that looks like two 'C's > hooked together, one upsidedown. Is that Signetics? Sounds like it... here you go: Intel, Motorola, Signetics, Hitachi etc 2532/2732: A7 1 24 Vcc A6 2 23 A8 A5 3 22 A9 A4 4 21 A11 A3 5 20 ~OE/Vpp A2 6 19 A10 A1 7 18 ~CE A0 8 17 D7 D0 9 16 D6 D1 10 15 D5 D0 11 14 D4 GND 12 13 D3 Texas TMS2532, Hitachi HN462532 (JEDEC): A7 1 24 Vcc A6 2 23 A8 A5 3 22 A9 A4 4 21 Vpp A3 5 20 ~CE/~PGM A2 6 19 A10 A1 7 18 A11 A0 8 17 D7 D0 9 16 D6 D1 10 15 D5 D0 11 14 D4 GND 12 13 D3 -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 22 18:37:35 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs In-Reply-To: Eric Smith "Re: Almost free 2-port and 4-port fanouts, IEEE 802.3 compliant, Ethernet Version 1.0 and 2.0 compatible AUIs" (Mar 22, 19:47) References: <20000322005148.27184.qmail@brouhaha.com> <10003220834.ZM11164@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20000322194736.3328.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <10003230037.ZM11893@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 22, 19:47, Eric Smith wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > I'm not sure these are repeaters, though. So a signal that's sent from a > > station on one of the AUI interfaces would go onto the wire, but I'm not > > sure that it would get back (directly) to the other AUI interface(s). > > It had better, or you don't have a functional ethernet, because two of > the nodes can't talk to each other. Also, the nodes have to be in the > same collision domain, so there's not really anything to be saved by > using some wacky scheme where the nodes can't talk to each other. I have seen such schemes. The small objects sold as "passive" 2-port or 3-port 10baseT hubs work like that, and two adjacent nodes can't talk directly to each other. It rarely matters. Well, I guess that depends on your network setup, actually! If you've not seen them, they look like a little black (usually) box with two RJ45 sockets on one end (into which you connect, say, two workstations or PCs) and a short RJ45 cable at the other end (which you connect to a real hub, switch, or a server). They're intended to let you connect more clients than you have hub ports. It's not a question of using some wacky scheme; rather a question of simplicity: if you want the adjacent nodes to talk to each other, you need to have the Tx from each connected to the Rx of the other. That's easy to arrange with just two 10baseT ports (that's all a crossed cable does, after all), but with three (as in the so-called passive hubs) you would end up with *everything* connected together -- or you need some electronics to isolate and filter (as in a proper hub/repeater). The passive units don't have that, so the two RJ45 sockets can each talk/listen to the RJ45 cable, but not to each other. There's a similar problem connecting three or more AUI ports; it's further complicated by the collision detect, which is normally done in the transceiver. Now if it were a multiport repeater, I'd have expected all the AUI connectors to be the same gender (since they'd be functionally equivalent). But the fanout units have one of a different gender, so I suspect that either they use a similar scheme to the passive hub I described, or they actually have more electronics than a normal repeater (or at least arranged rather differently), in order to get the signals in the right arrangement to drive a transceiver instead of a drop cable to another AUI. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From paulrsm at ameritech.net Wed Mar 22 19:13:40 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: KIM/6502 code (was ClassicCmp paper tape) Message-ID: <20000323011457.CMQW4547.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> I've been trying to track down some historical KIM/6502 code for some time. Would you happen to have KIMATH, FOCAL, or Pittman's Tiny BASIC? ---------- > From: mark acierno > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: need help reading a paper tape.... > Date: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 10:49 AM > > Is there anyone out there who can help me. I have a paper tape (for the > KIM-1) and I need it read. I dont care too much what format I get back - > disk, paper print out, ect. would all be fine. I thought I had arranged to > have it read by a commercial classic computer support person --- but they > now tell me that it will be quite some time before they can get to my > request. The tape has real historical value ( although not much real $$ > value) and I would like to get it read as soon as possible. > > If you can help me or know of someone who can -- please e-mail me. > > thank you > > mark acierno > > ------- > > ICQ 40439199 > http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2 > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 22 19:04:48 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted)" (Mar 22, 23:56) References: Message-ID: <10003230104.ZM11960@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 22, 23:56, Tony Duell wrote: > You _honestly_ think that a 22V10 (or whatever) is simpler, cheaper, and > easier to use than a couple of 74LS20s? You know, a 22V10 has 24 pins, > and the 2 74LS20s have 28. That's only 4 more pins to solder. And there's > no requirement to program a chip if you use the '20s. No, but I can make more choices with the 22V10 -- I want to be able to switch ROM sets (between the original on the motherboard and possibly two on the expansion) and RAM sizes and that would need a little more effort with the TTL, because I want to *replace* the 74154, not add to it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 22 19:21:39 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: 2532 EPROM pin-out Message-ID: <10003230121.ZM11971@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> OOPS I just realised I listed the Motorola 2532 as the same pinout as the Intel 2732; it's actually the same as the Texas 2532. Sorry! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From thompson at mail.athenet.net Wed Mar 22 19:30:57 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Resetting C= machines with non-standard implements (was Re: Are you sure the 6550 is dead?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I had a C64 on which I installed a reset switch into my HES-MON assembler cartridge. I used it for several years that way. I eventually gave the 64 to my nephew and I believe the machine still works to this day, although I doubt the HES-MON got much use after I gave it away. I did manage to fry a couple of sound chips, probably by feeding too many nasty signals through the (band-pass?) filter input on the sound DIN. In college I picked up a discarded Televideo 950 terminal with a 6502 processor. It had a habit of hanging on invalid escape codes, so I soldered a momentary push button switch on its reset pin. It also continued to work up to being discarded. The capacitor probably would have been a good idea in either case. Paul On Thu, 23 Mar 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Quite, I've got to say this is an EXTREMELY BAD way of resetting a C64 in my > > experience. > > Yes, but I would have thought that the main problem is that you're > effectively shorting an output (namely the output of the chip that > normally generates the reset signal) to ground. This is not generally a > good idea. > > I am suprised it was the processor that failed, though. AFAIK, the > processor in a C64 never outputs anything to the reset line. > > There's a fairly easy modification IIRC that adds a reset switch in > parallel with a capacitor in the reset circuit. This is a safe way to do > it. It's fairly obvious how to do this given a C64 schematic. If anyone > is seriously interested, I'll see what I can find. > > -tony > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 22 18:44:13 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: 2532 EPROM pin-out In-Reply-To: <10003230121.ZM11971@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> (pete@dunnington.u-net.com) References: <10003230121.ZM11971@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20000323004413.5533.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I just realised I listed the Motorola 2532 as the same pinout as the Intel > 2732; it's actually the same as the Texas 2532. Sorry! I've never seen a 2532 from any vendor that did not match the TI 2532 pinout. The 2716, on the other hand, was more problematic. TI and Intel both independently developed 16K parts and introduced them at roughly the same time, both assigning the part number 2716. However, the Intel part was 5-volt-only (for read, not for programming), whereas the TI part used multiple supplies like the earlier 2704 and 2708. TI introduced a 2516 which was pin compatible with the Intel 2716. Presumably they were worried about the same thing happening at the 32K density, so they designated their part 2532 from the outset. Arguably they came up with a better pinout than Intel did with the 2732, but Intel was in a stronger position to set standards. From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Wed Mar 22 19:44:50 2000 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Resetting C= machines with non-standard implements (was Re: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 23-Mar-2000 Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Quite, I've got to say this is an EXTREMELY BAD way of resetting a C64 >> in my >> experience. > > Yes, but I would have thought that the main problem is that you're > effectively shorting an output (namely the output of the chip that > normally generates the reset signal) to ground. This is not generally a > good idea. > > I am suprised it was the processor that failed, though. AFAIK, the > processor in a C64 never outputs anything to the reset line. > > There's a fairly easy modification IIRC that adds a reset switch in > parallel with a capacitor in the reset circuit. This is a safe way to do > it. It's fairly obvious how to do this given a C64 schematic. If anyone > is seriously interested, I'll see what I can find. > > -tony http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/documents/projects/other/reset-for-64.txt claims it's pin 8 of U20, a 556 timer IC. I think adding a cap would be useful for debouncing. BTW, where would one find a connector for the user port on a C-64? -Philip From edick at idcomm.com Wed Mar 22 19:48:07 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: KIM/6502 code (was ClassicCmp paper tape) References: <20000323011457.CMQW4547.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: <001a01bf9469$d68858c0$5f483cd1@winbook> I don't know that anyone has machine-readables of the FOCAL interpreter that was cooked up in the Denver Area 6502 group, but I do believe I have a printed manual and a printed listing of the interpreter. I'm quite certain that I won't be able to find it until well into spring, however. Now that many of us have scanners, new life is breathed into software available only in the printed listings. Frankly, I hope someone has machine readable files of these items, but I'm not aware of them. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul R. Santa-Maria To: Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 6:13 PM Subject: KIM/6502 code (was ClassicCmp paper tape) > > I've been trying to track down some historical KIM/6502 code for some time. > Would you happen to have KIMATH, FOCAL, or Pittman's Tiny BASIC? > > ---------- > > From: mark acierno > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: need help reading a paper tape.... > > Date: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 10:49 AM > > > > Is there anyone out there who can help me. I have a paper tape (for the > > KIM-1) and I need it read. I dont care too much what format I get back - > > disk, paper print out, ect. would all be fine. I thought I had arranged > to > > have it read by a commercial classic computer support person --- but they > > now tell me that it will be quite some time before they can get to my > > request. The tape has real historical value ( although not much real $$ > > value) and I would like to get it read as soon as possible. > > > > If you can help me or know of someone who can -- please e-mail me. > > > > thank you > > > > mark acierno > > > > ------- > > > > ICQ 40439199 > > http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2 > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Mar 22 20:06:53 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) References: <10003230104.ZM11960@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <002b01bf946c$7606d000$5f483cd1@winbook> If one isn't averse to the inherent anachronism of putting a PAL or other modern component in an old PET or KIM, it certainly would make more sense to replace ALL the RAM with a single 64Kx8 device, and disable the 32-pin SRAM with a single gate, either in a PAL or simply a 74S133, which is a 13-input NAND gate. The latter would be a negative logic NOR, outputting a HIGH level each time one of its inputs, which, in this case, would be a select from another memory-mapped device. That way you'd always have RAM wherever you don't have something else, and, since everybody's got these 64KB SRAMs lying in the closet, masquerading as CACHE memory on an obsolete '486 board (that's where I get mine!) they're plenty fast enough (15 ns). OTOH, if you prefer to maintain technological compatibility with the state of the art at the time of the machine's design, the SSI solution is more appropriate. Either one should work. I'm not sure whether I am more inclined to one approach or the other, but I can see why one might prefer one or the other. In reality, I still haven't gotten to a solid position on what to call the computer with boards from one manufacturer, yet housed in sheet metal bearing another's name. Take for example the IMSAI box with North-Star boards inside. Is it a CRAY if it has that printed on the cabinet, even though the computer inside is an 1802 board? Is it not an IMSAI an IMSAI if all its boards are from IMSAI? Oh, well . . . Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 6:04 PM Subject: Re: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) > On Mar 22, 23:56, Tony Duell wrote: > > > You _honestly_ think that a 22V10 (or whatever) is simpler, cheaper, and > > easier to use than a couple of 74LS20s? You know, a 22V10 has 24 pins, > > and the 2 74LS20s have 28. That's only 4 more pins to solder. And there's > > no requirement to program a chip if you use the '20s. > > No, but I can make more choices with the 22V10 -- I want to be able to > switch ROM sets (between the original on the motherboard and possibly two > on the expansion) and RAM sizes and that would need a little more effort > with the TTL, because I want to *replace* the 74154, not add to it. > > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From mbg at world.std.com Wed Mar 22 20:05:59 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Question about a system Message-ID: <200003230205.VAA22101@world.std.com> Can anyone tell me a few things about a system: Consider the following machine: VAX6000/400 3 x HSC70 2 x TU79 11 x Exsys disk drives 6 x Microtech disk drives o How big is this machine? o How much might it originally have gone for? o What might it be worth now? I'm not looking for answers like, "Pay me and I'll cart it away." I know someone who has such a machine and is trying to sell it, but I suspect that he is expecting a LOT more for it than it may be worth nowadays... it is 10-12 years old and he recently had it at auction on eBay for a minimum bid of $10000... I gather it did not get any bids... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Wed Mar 22 20:13:53 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? References: <200003220405.XAA25032@world.std.com> <10003220841.ZM11174@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200003230213.VAA28036@world.std.com> >Speaking of which, has the HP-85 totally disappeared? My dad had one >briefly when I was in high school, I remember using it to cheat on my >calc homework and brought in adding machine tapes with the graphs I >didn't feel like sketching by hand... And there was one in the computer >showroom on the second floor of the Harvard Coop. But I haven't seen one >since. IIRC, the BASIC "PRINT" statement *really* meant print, if you >wanted the display to be on the tiny CRT you had to use something else, >"TYPE" maybe? The way they stuck the BASIC keywords on single keys (like >a ZX81, only you didn't have to use them) was crazy, they were scattered >all over the place. But the combination of a cartridge tape drive, >adding machine printer, and teeny tiny CRT was kind of neat, each part >was low-end crap but if you put them all together it was a pretty usable >system. They show up at flea markets from time to time... I've seen a number of them at the MIT flea... I have one. Yes, the command PRINT does so to the integral printer... DISPLAY outputs to the screen. The tape drive uses the same cartridges as the TU58, though I am not sure if the formatting is the same... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 22 20:09:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:19 2005 Subject: Resetting C= machines with non-standard implements (was Re: In-Reply-To: from "gwynp@artware.qc.ca" at Mar 22, 0 08:44:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1164 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000323/ae2bf22e/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Wed Mar 22 20:19:57 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) References: <10003230104.ZM11960@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <002b01bf946c$7606d000$5f483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: <003f01bf946e$494c16e0$5f483cd1@winbook> Well, I did it again . . . please replace "... negative logic NOR ..." with "...negative logic OR..." (have I spelled that stuff right ??) The point is that it drives the active low enable on the memory device high, disabling it, whenever one of its inputs is driven low. Therefore, given that there are fewer than 14 competing enables, which certainly is not guaranteed to be the case, though quite likely, the SRAM will occupy all the otherwise unoccupied memory. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 7:06 PM Subject: Re: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) > If one isn't averse to the inherent anachronism of putting a PAL or other > modern component in an old PET or KIM, it certainly would make more sense to > replace ALL the RAM with a single 64Kx8 device, and disable the 32-pin SRAM > with a single gate, either in a PAL or simply a 74S133, which is a 13-input > NAND gate. The latter would be a negative logic NOR, outputting a HIGH > level each time one of its inputs, which, in this case, would be a select > from another memory-mapped device. That way you'd always have RAM wherever > you don't have something else, and, since everybody's got these 64KB SRAMs > lying in the closet, masquerading as CACHE memory on an obsolete '486 board > (that's where I get mine!) they're plenty fast enough (15 ns). > > OTOH, if you prefer to maintain technological compatibility with the state > of the art at the time of the machine's design, the SSI solution is more > appropriate. Either one should work. > > I'm not sure whether I am more inclined to one approach or the other, but I > can see why one might prefer one or the other. > > In reality, I still haven't gotten to a solid position on what to call the > computer with boards from one manufacturer, yet housed in sheet metal > bearing another's name. Take for example the IMSAI box with North-Star > boards inside. Is it a CRAY if it has that printed on the cabinet, even > though the computer inside is an 1802 board? > Is it not an IMSAI an IMSAI if all its boards are from IMSAI? Oh, well . . > . > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Pete Turnbull > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 6:04 PM > Subject: Re: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) > > > > On Mar 22, 23:56, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > You _honestly_ think that a 22V10 (or whatever) is simpler, cheaper, and > > > easier to use than a couple of 74LS20s? You know, a 22V10 has 24 pins, > > > and the 2 74LS20s have 28. That's only 4 more pins to solder. And > there's > > > no requirement to program a chip if you use the '20s. > > > > No, but I can make more choices with the 22V10 -- I want to be able to > > switch ROM sets (between the original on the motherboard and possibly two > > on the expansion) and RAM sizes and that would need a little more effort > > with the TTL, because I want to *replace* the 74154, not add to it. > > > > > > -- > > > > Pete Peter Turnbull > > Dept. of Computer Science > > University of York > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 22 20:18:36 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: Are you sure the 6550 is dead? (was: Mos Technology RAM wanted) In-Reply-To: <002b01bf946c$7606d000$5f483cd1@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 22, 0 07:06:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1767 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000323/9ea10987/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Wed Mar 22 20:25:24 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: KIM/6502 code (was ClassicCmp paper tape) In-Reply-To: <20000323011457.CMQW4547.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: <200003230225.SAA11099@civic.hal.com> Hi All I've been resisting putting this out but I've run out of my resources. I have a real dilemma! I've been trying to get in touch with Tom Pittman but I've not had too much success. I have a copy of his Tiny Basic for 6502 with patches for the KIM. I have a copy of the documentation and the tiny compiler as well. I have the 6502 code in the hex format used by the KIM ( not Intel or S format but similar ). I can easily convert this to Intel Hex or Binary. I would vary much like to give this stuff out to the group but I can't even in my right judgment use it myself without Tom's permission. Please, someone out there get in touch with Tom. I'd gladly pay the small charge he wants for the rights to use it or if he publishes a release notice we can put it up on one of the web sites. I don't like sitting on it and I don't want to get myself or others into trouble. I respect Tom's efforts and feel that only he has the right to decide what to do. I was told that someone in the past had gotten permission to use the code but my attempts to contact that person have had no response. The fellow that claimed to have contacted him was "Bill Richman" . I have sent him mail but not gotten a reply. I hate being in this position. I know that there are a bunch out there that are looking for this code. I should point out that Tom's code is about 08C0H long for the 6502. This means that it won't fit into the 1K RAM. Also, this means that it is slightly larger than would fit into a 2716. One would need at least a 2732 to fit it into a single part or a bank of 3K RAM if they loaded from tape. In the Docs he says it can be run from ROM as well as RAM. Please don't flood me with email, I need you guys to find Tom and get back to me with how I can contact him. There must be someone that can make the connection. Thanks Dwight "Paul R. Santa-Maria" wrote: > > I've been trying to track down some historical KIM/6502 code for some time. > Would you happen to have KIMATH, FOCAL, or Pittman's Tiny BASIC? > > ---------- > > From: mark acierno > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: need help reading a paper tape.... > > Date: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 10:49 AM > > > > Is there anyone out there who can help me. I have a paper tape (for the > > KIM-1) and I need it read. I dont care too much what format I get back - > > disk, paper print out, ect. would all be fine. I thought I had arranged > to > > have it read by a commercial classic computer support person --- but they > > now tell me that it will be quite some time before they can get to my > > request. The tape has real historical value ( although not much real $$ > > value) and I would like to get it read as soon as possible. > > > > If you can help me or know of someone who can -- please e-mail me. > > > > thank you > > > > mark acierno > > > > ------- > > > > ICQ 40439199 > > http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2 > > From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Mar 22 20:36:25 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: Resetting C= machines with non-standard implements (was Re: In-Reply-To: from "gwynp@artware.qc.ca" at "Mar 22, 0 08:44:50 pm" Message-ID: <200003230236.SAA19438@oa.ptloma.edu> ::http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/documents/projects/other/reset-for-64.txt ::claims it's pin 8 of U20, a 556 timer IC. I think adding a cap would be ::useful for debouncing. :: ::BTW, where would one find a connector for the user port on a C-64? I either steal them from old modems, or look at http://www.retrobits.com/ckb/display.cgi?75 for the DigiKey part #. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible - From KB9VU at aol.com Wed Mar 22 20:50:22 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: FS: Heath/Zenith Computer system Message-ID: Anyone interested in a working H/Z-110 low profile dual processor computer system? CPU, Monitor, Software (CP/M-80, CP/M-86 and MS-DOS), Peripherals, Technical and Operating manuals. Located near St. Louis. Pick up only as it is a load of stuff to ship. Thanks Mike From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 22 22:12:09 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: HP 85 Re: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? In-Reply-To: <200003230213.VAA28036@world.std.com> References: <200003220405.XAA25032@world.std.com> <10003220841.ZM11174@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000322231209.260f82e2@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:13 PM 3/22/00 -0500, Megaan wrote: > >>Speaking of which, has the HP-85 totally disappeared? My dad had one >>briefly when I was in high school, I remember using it to cheat on my >>calc homework and brought in adding machine tapes with the graphs I >>didn't feel like sketching by hand... And there was one in the computer >>showroom on the second floor of the Harvard Coop. But I haven't seen one >>since. IIRC, the BASIC "PRINT" statement *really* meant print, if you >>wanted the display to be on the tiny CRT you had to use something else, >>"TYPE" maybe? The way they stuck the BASIC keywords on single keys (like >>a ZX81, only you didn't have to use them) was crazy, they were scattered >>all over the place. But the combination of a cartridge tape drive, >>adding machine printer, and teeny tiny CRT was kind of neat, each part >>was low-end crap but if you put them all together it was a pretty usable >>system. > >They show up at flea markets from time to time... I've seen a number >of them at the MIT flea... I have one. Yes, the command PRINT does >so to the integral printer... DISPLAY outputs to the screen. The >tape drive uses the same cartridges as the TU58, though I am not >sure if the formatting is the same... It's not but INITIALIZE takes care of that! But be aware that that the rubber feed wheels in most 85s have long since melted away. Joe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Mar 22 21:37:24 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: Question about a system In-Reply-To: <200003230205.VAA22101@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000322192908.00d3dd10@mailhost.hq.home.mcmanis.com> Well 6000's seem to be appearing in the scrap market here in the Bay Area and the most I've seen one go for so far was about $75/cabinet (1 6000/300 + 1 expansion cabinet for $150) At 09:05 PM 3/22/00 -0500, you wrote: >Consider the following machine: > VAX6000/400 > 3 x HSC70 > 2 x TU79 > 11 x Exsys disk drives > 6 x Microtech disk drives > > o How big is this machine? The CPU/Memory/I/O is refrigerator sized, probably one cabinet, may be two. Each HSC70 is probably 4' tall, 3' deep and 2' wide. Don't have a picture handy of the TU79 but is probably a rack sized unit. The Exsys disk drives I don't know. If they are in something like a storage works cabinet they will be a 6' rack with a channel controller and a bunch of disk trays. Figure you've got at least 6 racks worth of gear here. > o How much might it originally have gone for? Half a million? (Wild guess!) > o What might it be worth now? Depends of course. For immediate sale, probably between $200 and $1000 for the resellers, however be prepared for them to ask you to pull all the boards and ship those and push the rest into a deep lake somewhere. If someone had a "dead" 6000 with Mission Critical Apps on it, you could probably squeeze $10,000 out of them :-). Perhaps one of the DEC resellers on the list will pipe in with the current asking price in the DDA for replacement boards and/or systems. >I know someone who has such a machine and is trying to sell it, but >I suspect that he is expecting a LOT more for it than it may be >worth nowadays... it is 10-12 years old and he recently had it at >auction on eBay for a minimum bid of $10000... I gather it did not >get any bids... $10,000 is _waaaaaay_ optimistic. --Chuck From paulrsm at ameritech.net Wed Mar 22 21:37:38 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: FOCAL (was: KIM/6502 code) Message-ID: <20000323034645.DMPO4547.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Does anyone know if any FOCAL (DEC originals or otherwise) documentation is online? I am delighted to find someone with this software. I would have been satisfied with a printed hex dump, but if you have the manual and the source code, yee-haw! When you find it please contact me. I'll take photocopies, faxes, scans, .PDF, anything. As far as being "machine-readable", for the KIM that would be paper tape or cassette tape; neither are as useful as a "human-readable" version. I found the Denver Area 6502 Group on the web at www.6502group.com; so far they have not been able to help me with FOCAL. www.6502.org has no leads to it that I could find. I want to get this stuff to run on my Apple IIe. I am interested in any KIM/SYM/AIM/6502 software that folks might have, especially with source code. Anyone have issues of MICRO (the 6502 journal) they want to get rid of? I do have the Best of MICRO, vols 1-3 and a few separate issues (#73-76), plus the MICRO on the Apple vols 1-3. Paul R. Santa-Maria Ann Arbor, Michigan USA paulrsm@ameritech.net ---------- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: KIM/6502 code (was ClassicCmp paper tape) > Date: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 08:48 PM > > I don't know that anyone has machine-readables of the FOCAL interpreter that > was cooked up in the Denver Area 6502 group, but I do believe I have a > printed manual and a printed listing of the interpreter. I'm quite certain > that I won't be able to find it until well into spring, however. Now that > many of us have scanners, new life is breathed into software available only > in the printed listings. > > Frankly, I hope someone has machine readable files of these items, but I'm > not aware of them. > > Dick From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 22 21:56:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? Message-ID: <200003230356.WAA12421@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > Yeah, well my VAX 6000-530 has twice that- 512 MB! Top that! :-) > > ROFL. I thought I was the only one that kept a pet one of these. Good > on ya! > Where'd you score that one & what's the rest of the setup? I got it through someone from this list- it was the subject of the big VAX vs. 486 flamewar last year. It was at a hospital office. It was shut off late last year and officially retired in January. Unfortunately, the disks are still in use on its replacement, so all I picked up was the CPU (one cabinet, refrigerator-sized). I've been going over it examining it to see what makes it tick and learning about it (DEC stuff is for whatever reason sort-of rare around here; I'm not sure if it's all still in service or if it was unpopular in the first place.) Eventually I'll find disks for it- I'm a firm believer in the magnet principle. :-) Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From edick at idcomm.com Wed Mar 22 22:34:54 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: FOCAL (was: KIM/6502 code) References: <20000323034645.DMPO4547.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: <000901bf9481$24241620$61483cd1@winbook> The Denver 6502 Group's web site is very new and, even so, I would not hold out much hope for the appearance of this software in any form, as nobody has used it in just about 20 years. The way I remember it, FOCAL was the first interpreter, and in fact, the first high level language that the group had as a common resource. Nevertheless, after the day the Apple Basic was modified/adapted for general use, nobody even mentioned FOCAL again except perhaps in a historical reference. Though the group back then (1978) had a couple of JOLT users, nobody ever showed up with or talked about a KIM, with one exception, and he only did that once, as nobody seems to have shared his interest. In early '79, after the Apple users more or less split off in order to form a group of their own, a set of listings of what was then the current generation of the stuff various group members, mostly the same three or four guys, was printed for those of the group who wanted it. Some people preferred microfiche . . . In any case that was the last time a full set of listings of the group's output was generated. In fact, aside from revisions of the XPL0 compiler and the APEX OS software, nothing further was generated, as the hardware interest seems to have died off. I know I have the complete set of listings, but it may not surface for a while. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul R. Santa-Maria To: Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 8:37 PM Subject: FOCAL (was: KIM/6502 code) > Does anyone know if any FOCAL (DEC originals or otherwise) documentation is > online? > > I am delighted to find someone with this software. I would have been > satisfied with a printed hex dump, but if you have the manual and the > source code, yee-haw! When you find it please contact me. I'll take > photocopies, faxes, scans, .PDF, anything. As far as being > "machine-readable", for the KIM that would be paper tape or cassette tape; > neither are as useful as a "human-readable" version. I found the Denver > Area 6502 Group on the web at www.6502group.com; so far they have not been > able to help me with FOCAL. www.6502.org has no leads to it that I could > find. > > I want to get this stuff to run on my Apple IIe. I am interested in any > KIM/SYM/AIM/6502 software that folks might have, especially with source > code. Anyone have issues of MICRO (the 6502 journal) they want to get rid > of? I do have the Best of MICRO, vols 1-3 and a few separate issues > (#73-76), plus the MICRO on the Apple vols 1-3. > > Paul R. Santa-Maria > Ann Arbor, Michigan USA > paulrsm@ameritech.net > > ---------- > > From: Richard Erlacher > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: KIM/6502 code (was ClassicCmp paper tape) > > Date: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 08:48 PM > > > > I don't know that anyone has machine-readables of the FOCAL interpreter > that > > was cooked up in the Denver Area 6502 group, but I do believe I have a > > printed manual and a printed listing of the interpreter. I'm quite > certain > > that I won't be able to find it until well into spring, however. Now > that > > many of us have scanners, new life is breathed into software available > only > > in the printed listings. > > > > Frankly, I hope someone has machine readable files of these items, but > I'm > > not aware of them. > > > > Dick > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Mar 23 00:48:17 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: Question about a system References: <200003230205.VAA22101@world.std.com> Message-ID: <013801bf9493$c5fc1a80$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Megan" To: Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 12:35 PM Subject: Question about a system Hi Megan, > Consider the following machine: > VAX6000/400 Circa 1990 vintage. Ambiguous model no. These can have up to 6 cpus, ie a 410 would have one, a 420 2 etc. Ram could be anything from 64mb up to 512Mb. XMI and (usually) VAXBI card cages. I have a couple of these. A 6000-430 that's my own, and a 6000-440 at work that is our Web/FTP/Email/POP/Proxy server. Bomb proof. Very low maintainance. The TK70 tape is the least reliable component in it. Power consumption is surprisingly small. I run these easily from a standard domestic power point after modifying the 3 phase to single phase. Around 2-2.5A@240vac depending on card fit. Probably the most economical of 'BIG" vaxen to run as a hobbyist system, depending on the drive's you use. 7000's use a similar cabinet and layout. The fact it's talking to HSC's means it has a CI bus adapter, either XMI or BI based. So it probably doesn't have an onboard disk controller. Ethernet is standard. (AUI connector). 1 console port for a VT100 or similar. Everything else is optional. (SCSI, DSSI, SDI etc) Almost certainly running some version of VMS. Probably 6.something unless it was still on maintainance til recently. > 3 x HSC70 Waist high filing cabinet size. Weigh around 300lbs IIRC. SDI drive controller for Vax Clusters. Have their own O/S called CRONIC. (Colorado Rudimentary Operating Nucleus for Intelligent Controllers) Basically a PDP-11 dedicated to looking after disk drives. Boot from a 5&1/4" disk. Ver 8.3 is current/last version I think. Have a couple of these and a couple of HSC50s. (similar, but slower and boot off Tu58(?) tape.) Power consumption around 400-500w. (Roughly the same as the Vax) 70's are single phase disguised as 3 phase. > 2 x TU79 Very big, heavy, 9 track 1/2" tape drives. Run on lots of electricity and vaccuum. Have a huge internal air compressor. Consumption around 15A@240vac when the compressor is running. SDI/STI interface. Talk to HSC's or KDB50's etc. Fast as tape drives go. Autothreading (that's what the vaccuum system is for) Single phase here, (240v) but might be 3 phase in use config, not sure. Got a couple of these. > 11 x Exsys disk drives > 6 x Microtech disk drives Never heard of the particular drives. They would almost certainly be SDI, RA7x,8x, or 9x compatible in some way. The Exsys might be Exabytes, probably RA9x clones, around 25-30lbs each. Dunno about the Microtechs. > o How big is this machine? Big. Think large fridge for the system unit, weight around 500lbs. (384kg according to my specs) Tape drives around the same. Genuine DEC SDI hard disk drives for these vary from 5lb RA7x drives around the size of a house brick, to 68kg RA8x drives the size of two beer cartons. This seems to be a later system so I would think it more likely to have the somewhat smaller (physically) drives. > o How much might it originally have gone for? A full cluster setup like this would have cost on the close order of $800-900,000US I would think. FWIW, a 6000-310 (just the system unit!) with 64Mb of ram cost Pasminco Metals $375,000AU in 1989. YMMV. The HSC50 was around $85,000AU in 1987 IIRC. > o What might it be worth now? Not much. Around $300AU a tonne as scrap in most places in Oz. According to my (almost) local scrapper. Not much valuable metal in them. Gold mine to an electronics buff for the power supplies etc. We paid $200 for one and had a complete cluster *given* to us shortly after. > I'm not looking for answers like, "Pay me and I'll cart it away." The correct answer is that it has no significant *commercial* value. ie Whatever you can get above the scrap price. Or whatever a collector/hobbyist will pay for it, bearing in mind the cost of shifting it any sort of distance. > I know someone who has such a machine and is trying to sell it, but > I suspect that he is expecting a LOT more for it than it may be > worth nowadays... it is 10-12 years old Closer to 10. The 400 series came out in '90 IIRC. > and he recently had it at > auction on eBay for a minimum bid of $10000... I gather it did not > get any bids... ROFL! Not surprised. Reality - It's not worth significant real money, especially in view of the size/weight and associated transport hassles/costs. FWIW, six blokes and a ute (er, pickup in USspeak) are the minimum to load, transport and unload these beasties. Much easier if you have a forklift at one or both ends, but you CAN do it manually, if you are careful. Any other questions, feel free to ask. I like these particular machines. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@tell.net.au ICQ: 1970476 From liste at artware.qc.ca Thu Mar 23 00:57:14 2000 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: Resetting C= machines with non-standard implements (was Re: In-Reply-To: <200003230236.SAA19438@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On 23-Mar-2000 Cameron Kaiser wrote: >::http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/documents/projects/other/reset-for-64.txt >::claims it's pin 8 of U20, a 556 timer IC. I think adding a cap would >::be >::useful for debouncing. >:: >::BTW, where would one find a connector for the user port on a C-64? > > I either steal them from old modems, or look at > > http://www.retrobits.com/ckb/display.cgi?75 > > for the DigiKey part #. Very cool. Thank you. -Philip From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Mar 23 07:53:15 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: HP 85 tapes Re: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? In-Reply-To: <200003230356.WAA12421@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000323085315.260fe6f4@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:56 PM 3/22/00 -0500, you wrote: > >It's DC100 cart and that where it ends. I think tu58 carts may work if >bulk erased first. > >Allison > You don't even have to erase them first. INITIALIZE on the 85 will format over a tape that was used in a PC or on a DEC. I've done it to both of them. Joe > From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Mar 23 08:38:30 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: FOCAL (was: KIM/6502 code) In-Reply-To: <000901bf9481$24241620$61483cd1@winbook> from Richard Erlacher at "Mar 22, 0 09:34:54 pm" Message-ID: <200003231438.GAA18392@oa.ptloma.edu> ::I know I have the complete set of listings, but it may not surface for a ::while. If you do find the FOCAL listings, I wouldn't mind seeing them, either. Maybe they should be slapped up on a website somewhere. (Earl, I'll gladly start a KIM-1 page on retrobits. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- TODAY'S DUMB TRUE HEADLINE: Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told ---- From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Mar 23 08:34:02 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: HP 85 tapes / TU58 tapes Message-ID: <38DA2B5A.8EA7D40D@idirect.com> I have a friend who may be selling some of his TU58 / HP 85 tapes. Is there anyone who wishes to trade and PDP-11 Qbus hardware. I am also looking for a SONY SMO S501 or compatible magneto optical drive and cartridges (512 bytes per sector). From acierno at mindspring.com Thu Mar 23 08:58:57 2000 From: acierno at mindspring.com (mark acierno) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: teletype wanted..... Message-ID: Hi everyone.... I tried to post the message before but never saw it posted so excuse me if you see this twice. I'm trying to find a teletype to add to my KIM-1- if anyone has one that they are willing to part with ( for a reasonable price) or knows anyone who is selling one please let me know.I've checked the obvious places (e-bay-hell) and have not yet seen one. mark ------- ICQ 40439199 http://www2.msstate.edu/~mja2 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 23 08:59:09 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: Fwd: [GreenKeys] TTY Diagrams, Specs, BSPs FS Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000323085841.01b40f00@pc> There's some ASR-33 info in this offer from the Greenkeys list... - John >X-POP3-Rcpt: jfoust@threedee >From: Merz Donald S >To: TTY Friends >Subject: [GreenKeys] TTY Diagrams, Specs, BSPs FS >Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:44:59 -0500 >Sender: owner-greenkeys@qth.net >Reply-To: Merz Donald S > >FOR SALE: Teletype Documentation > >Each of these packages is a thick stack of Teletype docs from AT&TCo. There >are 20 >or more docs per set. There may be some duplicates. Condition ranges from >like new >to covered with Teletype oil. Mostly offered for the cost of postage and >aggravation. > >Package 1: Model 28 Bell System Practices. Starts with General Instructions >for installing >the Model 28 ASR and covers all manner of modification kits such as >horizontal and vertical >tabulation, multicopy roll paper, keyboard modifications, etc. This is just >a random set--no >attempt was made to organize these or make a complete set. As-is. $5 >postage-paid. > >Package 2: Model 28 Bell System Practices. Same as #1 except a few less docs >in this set. >$5 PPD > >ASR User Manual photocopy. Old copy of AT&T 1961 ASR user guide. Free with >any purchase. > >Bell System Practices Manual Set for Model 164C1, C2, C3 & C4 Telegraph >Transmission >Measuring Sets. 2 manuals: Description/Principles Of Operation and >Calibration and Test >Methods. Both original and like new. This looks like a nice instrument but I >have never seen >one of these. $8 PPD > >Bell System Practices Manual Set for Model 164C1, C2, C3 & C4 Telegraph >Transmission >Measuring Sets. As above but the "Calibration and Test Methods" manual is a >photocopy. >$6 PPD > >Package 3: Model 28 Wiring Diagrams: A 1" thick stack of un-sorted diagrams. >$5 PPD > >MWO 80-3: Mandatory Modification Work Order For M-28 ASR, KSR & KTR. This is >a >comb-bound set of wiring diagrams and modification instructions dated >August, 1971. I'm >not sure what this set was used for. $5 PPD > >Package 4: This is a polyglot of wiring diagrams for "Multi-voltage >Rectifiers," "High-Speed >TDs," "Selective Calling Systems," "CXB200 & MU43," and much more. A total >of about a >1-1/2" thick pile. $5 PPD > >Package 5: M33, 101C, "Four-Row TWX," wiring diagrams. About 1" thick. $4 >PPD > >Package 6: Dataspeed wiring diagrams, Data Systems Schematics, "Recognizer >Module" >diagrams. About 1" thick. $5 PPD > >Package 7: 48V rectifier, high speed receiving distributor, multi-voltage >rectifier, >isolation repeater and others. About 1" thick. $4 PPD > >Package 8: Model 35 wiring diagrams, specifications for various >modifications and a >couple M35 BSPs. About 1/2" thick. $5 PPD > >Package 9: A reasonably complete set of M33 wiring diagrams on 11x17 paper >plus a >package of various M33 diagrams still in unopened wrappers. About 1" thick. >$5 PPD > >Package 10: Everything you wanted to know about the Model 33 but were afraid >to ask. >This includes a complete set of M33 wiring diagrams and a mostly complete >set of >BSPs for the Model 33. This is really nice. About 2" thick. $24 PPD > >Package 11: BSPs and wiring diagrams for a lot of the early Bell data gear. >Covers 101C, >113A, 202C, 402D, 1001D and many more. Nice. About 1-1/2" thick. $7 PPD > >Contact Don at merz.ds@mellon.com > >---- >Submissions: greenkeys@qth.net From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 23 09:08:57 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: FOCAL (was: KIM/6502 code) In-Reply-To: <200003231438.GAA18392@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Mar 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::I know I have the complete set of listings, but it may not surface for a > ::while. > > If you do find the FOCAL listings, I wouldn't mind seeing them, either. > Maybe they should be slapped up on a website somewhere. (Earl, I'll > gladly start a KIM-1 page on retrobits. :-) I'd like to see this too. Because I have a kim-1 and also PDP-8 and 8080 systems that FOCAL is available for. I'd like to have a set. ;) Allison From edick at idcomm.com Thu Mar 23 10:27:03 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: FOCAL (was: KIM/6502 code) References: Message-ID: <001901bf94e4$a03a68a0$41483cd1@winbook> Please keepin mind that the printed source listing that I have is not a KIM version but rather one that Wayne Wall wrote, based on the DEC interpreter. It loads at either 0x200 or 0x800, depending on whether it's the old Digital-Group-audio-cassette version or the Apple][-running-APEX-compatible version. In either case, it's got to be public domain, as it was written by a public employee on public time, though it was for use of Colorado School of Mines personnel, among others. It may eventually ( if I can influence the responsible parties) appear on the 6502group.org web site. For that rason, I expect I'll scan and OCR the things into a pair of text files. We'll see how long it takes me to find it. Keep in mind I've got a pretty full plate and am not likely to go on an easter-egg hunt just for that. Things usually turn up when I'm looking for something else. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 8:08 AM Subject: Re: FOCAL (was: KIM/6502 code) > On Thu, 23 Mar 2000, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > ::I know I have the complete set of listings, but it may not surface for a > > ::while. > > > > If you do find the FOCAL listings, I wouldn't mind seeing them, either. > > Maybe they should be slapped up on a website somewhere. (Earl, I'll > > gladly start a KIM-1 page on retrobits. :-) > > I'd like to see this too. Because I have a kim-1 and also PDP-8 and 8080 > systems that FOCAL is available for. I'd like to have a set. ;) > > Allison > > From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Mar 23 10:47:52 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: KIM/6502 code (was ClassicCmp paper tape) Message-ID: <200003231646.KAA20397@falcon.inetnebr.com> >Hi All > I've been resisting putting this out but I've run out >of my resources. I have a real dilemma! > I've been trying to get in touch with Tom Pittman >but I've not had too much success. I have a copy >The fellow that claimed to have contacted him was >"Bill Richman" . I have sent him >mail but not gotten a reply. I hate being in this position. >I know that there are a bunch out there that are looking >for this code. Just for the record, I forwarded your information to Tom, as I don't feel comfortable handing out his e-mail address. He replied that he would get back to you shortly. I'll try to remind him tonight. Bill Richman http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 23 11:02:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: FOCAL (was: KIM/6502 code) In-Reply-To: <001901bf94e4$a03a68a0$41483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: > version. In either case, it's got to be public domain, as it was written by > a public employee on public time, though it was for use of Colorado School > of Mines personnel, among others. It may eventually ( if I can influence > the responsible parties) appear on the 6502group.org web site. For that > rason, I expect I'll scan and OCR the things into a pair of text files. The 8080 version was CSM, I know the author personally, it wasn't Wall. There was some credit grabbing back then. The binaries are a different matter. The 6502 version is related to this one or different author? > We'll see how long it takes me to find it. Keep in mind I've got a pretty > full plate and am not likely to go on an easter-egg hunt just for that. > Things usually turn up when I'm looking for something else. You are not alone. I'm patient too. I wated 20+ years for the Kim-1 I wanted a little longer, no problem. ;) Allison From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Mar 23 16:57:13 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: Resetting C= machines with non-standard implements (was Re: In-Reply-To: <200003230236.SAA19438@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: Hello Cameron On 22-Mar-00, you wrote: > ::http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/documents/projects/other/reset-for-64.txt > ::claims it's pin 8 of U20, a 556 timer IC. I think adding a cap would be > ::useful for debouncing. > :: > ::BTW, where would one find a connector for the user port on a C-64? > Try contacting Gateway electronics in St. Louis -- they have a lot of really obscure parts . . . . Gary Hildebrand From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Mar 23 11:27:54 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: FOCAL (was: KIM/6502 code) Message-ID: <000323122754.224003bb@trailing-edge.com> >Does anyone know if any FOCAL (DEC originals or otherwise) documentation is >online? The DECUS PDP-8 Focal sources (in PAL10) are available. FOCAL.PA begins with: /**** FOCAL 5/69 **** /E.A.TAFT - REVISION OF FOCALW 8/68 /EAT/ 25-JUL-72 /ASSEMBLY INSTRUCTIONS FOR DECUS VERSION: /INPUT FILES: / FOCAL.569 FOCAL LANGUAGE PROCESSOR / FLOAT.569 FLOATING POINT PACKAGE / EXTEND.569 EXTENDED FUNCTION PACKAGE / 2USER.569 2-USER OVERLAY What I have is in the "nickel" PDP-8 DECTAPE archive rescued by me from the University of Indiana several years ago. The Focal stuff, in particular, is on the web at: http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/focal/ If you were asking about FOCAL-10 (for a PDP-10), this is available on the web as well, from the home to all good software that's PDP-10 related: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0462/ If you want the PDP-11 (specifically, for RT-11) sources, you can find this at the Metalab.unc.edu PDP-11 archives as DECUS entry 11-0447. Go to http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ then go into the RT-11 archives, pick the "decus11" directory, and you'll see three 110477 directories (d1, d2, and d3), one for each original floppy. I also have much RSX and DOS-11 FOCAL stuff that's not indexed yet. I hope this helps. If none of these packages meets your needs, you might ask again for your specific platform(s). Enjoy! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Thu Mar 23 20:34:11 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: HP 85 tapes / TU58 tapes Message-ID: <20000323185227.BB33A37234@pandora.worldonline.nl> Hi, If you ask such questions, please state where you are located. As for the questions, sorry, not interested, but thanks anyway for asking. Wim Hofman ---------- > From: Jerome Fine > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: HP 85 tapes / TU58 tapes > Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 6:34 AM > > I have a friend who may be selling some of his TU58 / HP 85 > tapes. Is there anyone who wishes to trade and PDP-11 Qbus > hardware. I am also looking for a SONY SMO S501 or > compatible magneto optical drive and cartridges (512 bytes per > sector). > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 23 12:30:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? In-Reply-To: <200003230213.VAA28036@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Mar 22, 0 09:13:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 842 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000323/52606ab7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 23 12:33:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: HP 85 Re: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000322231209.260f82e2@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Mar 22, 0 11:12:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 380 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000323/fd3d2c83/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 23 14:02:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: HP 85 Re: IBM 5150, am I nuts or what? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > It's not but INITIALIZE takes care of that! But be aware that that the > > rubber feed wheels in most 85s have long since melted away. > > Presumably they can be rebuilt, though. I've got an HP9815 (uses the same > cartridges) tape drive in bits on the bench at the moment, and the > capstan looks/feels good as new. If it wasn't, it doesn't look impossible > to repair it. If they are anyway similar TU58 suffers the same problem and those are fairly easy to fix. Allison From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Mar 23 14:10:09 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: teletype wanted..... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I'm trying to find a teletype to add to my KIM-1- if anyone has one that >they are willing to part with ( for a reasonable price) or knows anyone who Whats a reasonable price? Shipping alone I suspect will be around $75 (guessing weight). Do you want a working unit, or a project? From marvin at rain.org Thu Mar 23 14:46:20 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: Lobo Drives References: Message-ID: <38DA829C.7796B57E@rain.org> In browsing my back email, I ran across one from a person who used to work at Lobo. Here is part of his reply (the Elephant Bar is a local restaurant and Lobo was Roger's pet wolf): "Roger may know most of the inside stories of the Max-80, but I worked pretty closely with the engineering department, being a technical guy. For example, the sillouette of Lobo was drawn by a Mr. Greg Hertzen (sp?) Greg wanted to use a red LED (indicating a bit of mysticisism to be associated with the machine), but they went with yellow (or was it green?) which was more in keeping with Max's color scheme. As I recall, Arleen Hertzen (sp?), who was Greg's wife worked mainly on the Preliminary Manual. The penciled revisions you mentioned may well be Arleen's. The guy who developed the Max-80, a brilliant man named Kirk Hobart, used to work as a consultant (I believe), out near The Elaphant Bar." From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Mar 23 15:40:21 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: teletype wanted..... In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Mar 23, 0 12:10:09 pm" Message-ID: <200003232140.NAA09964@oa.ptloma.edu> ::>I'm trying to find a teletype to add to my KIM-1- if anyone has one that ::>they are willing to part with ( for a reasonable price) or knows anyone who :: ::Whats a reasonable price? Shipping alone I suspect will be around $75 ::(guessing weight). Do you want a working unit, or a project? Speaking of teletypes, I ended up with a matching set of Philips TX-1000 Text Tells which are, I guess, meant for teletext transfer over phone lines. (The manual and the machines are Dutch.) Anyone ever dealt with these? Know the communication protocol, or are they just like any other traditional modem when they transmit/receive? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- I am Dyslexic of Brog. Fesistence is rutile. You will be asmilsilated. ----- From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 23 15:51:31 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: DEC ADV11-A A/D Converter In-Reply-To: <38DA829C.7796B57E@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Mar 23, 2000 12:46:20 PM Message-ID: <200003232151.NAA28557@shell1.aracnet.com> Out of curiosity is there anything I need to know before plugging the following board into a Q-Bus PDP-11? A012 ADV11-A Q 16-channel, 12-bit Analogue-to-Digital Converter A012 Caution: uses BC1 for purposes other than BDAL18 A012 Refs: EK-ADV11-OP, MP-00193, EB-20174-20, uNOTE O#108 My plan has been to plug it into my PDP-11/73 which resides in a BA123. Also is there any way to test one without having anything connected. Zane From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Mar 23 16:31:16 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: DEC ADV11-A A/D Converter In-Reply-To: <200003232151.NAA28557@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <38DA829C.7796B57E@rain.org> Message-ID: <4.1.20000323142827.04739950@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> You mean like "this board isn't compatible with a 22bit backplane" kinds of things. (which it isn't BTW, that's what the note is about BDAL18 is address line 18 which is called BC1 on 18 bit backplanes.) I'm not sure how you would use it in a system with a 22 bit backplane. Even if you pulled the address line off the back plane the board's CSR registers would show up in memory space and you would have bus contention. --chuck At 01:51 PM 3/23/00 -0800, you wrote: >Out of curiosity is there anything I need to know before plugging the >following board into a Q-Bus PDP-11? > >A012 ADV11-A Q 16-channel, 12-bit Analogue-to-Digital Converter >A012 Caution: uses BC1 for purposes other than BDAL18 >A012 Refs: EK-ADV11-OP, MP-00193, EB-20174-20, uNOTE O#108 > >My plan has been to plug it into my PDP-11/73 which resides in a BA123. > >Also is there any way to test one without having anything connected. > > Zane From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 23 16:51:37 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: teletype wanted..... In-Reply-To: Cameron Kaiser "Re: teletype wanted....." (Mar 23, 13:40) References: <200003232140.NAA09964@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <10003232251.ZM12881@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 23, 13:40, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Speaking of teletypes, I ended up with a matching set of Philips TX-1000 > Text Tells which are, I guess, meant for teletext transfer over phone lines. > (The manual and the machines are Dutch.) Anyone ever dealt with these? > Know the communication protocol, or are they just like any other traditional > modem when they transmit/receive? The type number looks familiar, but I can't be certain. What do they look like? I expect they'll be V23 Mode 2 (1200 baud FSK receive using 2100/1300Hz, 75 baud FSK transmit using 450/390Hz CCITT tones). If they're what I think they are, they can be programmed with a number to dial, a user ID and a (numeric) password which is sent on receipt of a ctrl-E (ENQ) from the remote end, but it should also be possible to use them manually. Ob.pedantry: it would be Viewdata (comms channels), not teletext (broadcast). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From earl_evans at yahoo.com Thu Mar 23 16:54:36 2000 From: earl_evans at yahoo.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: FOCAL (was: KIM/6502 code) Message-ID: <20000323225436.4981.qmail@web120.yahoomail.com> Hey Cameron, I'd be one of your first customers if you did :-) Just read a little about this device in the book "Fire In The Valley". (Book review coming...) Sounds like it was kind of groundbreaking, being among the first kits to provide a keypad for input, as opposed to toggle switches, etc. They have one on display at Powell's Technical Bookstore in Portland, OR. Wish I had one that I could light up. Maybe someday... EE --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: [snip] (Earl, I'll > gladly start a KIM-1 page on retrobits. :-) ===== Earl Evans retro@retrobits.com Enjoy Retrocomputing Today! Join us at http://www.retrobits.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 23 16:57:32 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: DEC ADV11-A A/D Converter In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000323142827.04739950@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Mar 23, 2000 02:31:16 PM Message-ID: <200003232257.OAA02588@shell1.aracnet.com> That's kind of what I thought it meant :^( Guess I really will have to get the PDP-11/23 up and running if I want to play with this board. Zane > You mean like "this board isn't compatible with a 22bit backplane" kinds of > things. (which it isn't BTW, that's what the note is about BDAL18 is > address line 18 which is called BC1 on 18 bit backplanes.) > > I'm not sure how you would use it in a system with a 22 bit backplane. Even > if you pulled the address line off the back plane the board's CSR registers > would show up in memory space and you would have bus contention. > > --chuck > > > At 01:51 PM 3/23/00 -0800, you wrote: > >Out of curiosity is there anything I need to know before plugging the > >following board into a Q-Bus PDP-11? > > > >A012 ADV11-A Q 16-channel, 12-bit Analogue-to-Digital Converter > >A012 Caution: uses BC1 for purposes other than BDAL18 > >A012 Refs: EK-ADV11-OP, MP-00193, EB-20174-20, uNOTE O#108 > > > >My plan has been to plug it into my PDP-11/73 which resides in a BA123. > > > >Also is there any way to test one without having anything connected. > > > > Zane > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 23 16:11:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: DEC ADV11-A A/D Converter In-Reply-To: <200003232151.NAA28557@shell1.aracnet.com> from "healyzh@aracnet.com" at Mar 23, 0 01:51:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 770 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000323/f136a970/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 23 16:57:10 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: DEC ADV11-A A/D Converter In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000323142827.04739950@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Mar 23, 0 02:31:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1415 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000323/fd6b5990/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 23 17:43:21 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: DEC ADV11-A A/D Converter In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis "Re: DEC ADV11-A A/D Converter" (Mar 23, 14:31) References: <38DA829C.7796B57E@rain.org> <4.1.20000323142827.04739950@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <10003232343.ZM12927@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 23, 14:31, Chuck McManis wrote: > You mean like "this board isn't compatible with a 22bit backplane" kinds of > things. (which it isn't BTW, that's what the note is about BDAL18 is > address line 18 which is called BC1 on 18 bit backplanes.) > > I'm not sure how you would use it in a system with a 22 bit backplane. Even > if you pulled the address line off the back plane the board's CSR registers > would show up in memory space and you would have bus contention. I don't believe that's true -- that board uses BBS7 to decode I/O space, so it should appear at the correct address. The only problem is BC1, which, like other "unused" contacts, is grounded (presumably to reduce noise). Just cut the track from the BC1 finger. The ADV11 is listed as "restricted compatibility", not "incompatible". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Mar 23 18:05:08 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: teletype wanted..... In-Reply-To: <10003232251.ZM12881@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Mar 23, 0 10:51:37 pm" Message-ID: <200003240005.QAA12904@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> Speaking of teletypes, I ended up with a matching set of Philips TX-1000 ::> Text Tells which are, I guess, meant for teletext transfer over phone ::lines. ::> (The manual and the machines are Dutch.) Anyone ever dealt with these? ::> Know the communication protocol, or are they just like any other ::traditional ::> modem when they transmit/receive? ::The type number looks familiar, but I can't be certain. What do they look ::like? I expect they'll be V23 Mode 2 (1200 baud FSK receive using ::2100/1300Hz, 75 baud FSK transmit using 450/390Hz CCITT tones). If they're ::what I think they are, they can be programmed with a number to dial, a user ::ID and a (numeric) password which is sent on receipt of a ctrl-E (ENQ) from ::the remote end, but it should also be possible to use them manually. They're black, about the size of (spit) a Windows CE box, I guess. It folds open to reveal a keyboard with red, orange and burgundy-ish keys, and then a single row 40?-character LCD with a "summary of commands" below that (in Dutch, not much good to me). Does this ring any bells? I'm particularly interested in figuring out how to talk to them *without* having one unit on one end, like, say, have my workhorse C128 talk to them, upload and download from them, etc. I'm confident the baud rate would be low enough for the Commodore to handle a transfer, but I'm not sure if a regular modem and the Text Tell could even communicate (using the same modulation, etc.) I'm afraid I don't know much about telecom standards, so the V.23 note went over my head. :-( ::Ob.pedantry: it would be Viewdata (comms channels), not teletext ::(broadcast). *blush* :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my personalities each need therapy." ----- From mbg at world.std.com Thu Mar 23 18:01:44 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: DEC ADV11-A A/D Converter Message-ID: <200003240001.TAA08126@world.std.com> >That's kind of what I thought it meant :^( Guess I really will have to >get the PDP-11/23 up and running if I want to play with this board. Make sure it is a 11/23, not 11/23+, and make sure it is a Rev.A board or it too will be looking at BDAL18... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 23 18:33:13 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: DEC ADV11-A A/D Converter In-Reply-To: <200003240001.TAA08126@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Mar 23, 2000 07:01:44 PM Message-ID: <200003240033.QAA11733@shell1.aracnet.com> > >That's kind of what I thought it meant :^( Guess I really will have to > >get the PDP-11/23 up and running if I want to play with this board. > > Make sure it is a 11/23, not 11/23+, and make sure it is a Rev.A board > or it too will be looking at BDAL18... Well, I know it's a /23, but I don't know the rev, knowing my luck it's not a Rev A. I'll have to check, thanks for the warning! I gather these things would work in a 16-bit backplane such as my /03's? Zane From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Mar 23 19:09:53 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: DEC ADV11-A A/D Converter In-Reply-To: <200003240001.TAA08126@world.std.com>; from mbg@world.std.com on Thu, Mar 23, 2000 at 07:01:44PM -0500 References: <200003240001.TAA08126@world.std.com> Message-ID: <20000323200953.A19892@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Mar 23, 2000 at 07:01:44PM -0500, Megan wrote: > >That's kind of what I thought it meant :^( Guess I really will have to > >get the PDP-11/23 up and running if I want to play with this board. > > Make sure it is a 11/23, not 11/23+, and make sure it is a Rev.A board > or it too will be looking at BDAL18... Or, wouldn't it work to just use a Q18 backplane which doesn't bus BDAL21:18? I would think that even the 11/73 CPU would be OK then, as long as you don't mind living with 248 KB memory... John Wilson D Bit From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 23 19:05:37 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: teletype wanted..... In-Reply-To: Cameron Kaiser "Re: teletype wanted....." (Mar 23, 16:05) References: <200003240005.QAA12904@oa.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <10003240105.ZM13203@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 23, 16:05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > They're black, about the size of (spit) a Windows CE box, I guess. It folds > open to reveal a keyboard with red, orange and burgundy-ish keys, and then a > single row 40?-character LCD with a "summary of commands" below that (in > Dutch, not much good to me). Does this ring any bells? Hmm... not really -- it's not quite what I thought. Teletext and Viewdata normally use colour, chunky graphics (each character cell is divided into a 2 x 3 mosaic grid), and a 40 x 25 character screen. So either this is some really simple device, or that's just a status display: is there any socket anywhere that could be a video or TV connector? Serial connector? Any others? What's marked on the keys? > I'm particularly interested in figuring out how to talk to them *without* > having one unit on one end, like, say, have my workhorse C128 talk to them, > upload and download from them, etc. > > I'm confident the baud rate would be low enough for the Commodore to handle > a transfer, but I'm not sure if a regular modem and the Text Tell could even > communicate (using the same modulation, etc.) I'm afraid I don't know much > about telecom standards, so the V.23 note went over my head. :-( If it's European, it will use CCITT tones rather than Bell tones (I'm assuming it's simple FSK modulation). The V23 standard is rather like Bell 202 (V23 uses 2100/1300Hz and 202 uses 2200/1200Hz); half-duplex except that it has a modulated 75 baud back-channel, while Bell 202 has a 5 baud CW back-channel, a 387Hz tone keyed on and off for signalling. The answer tones are slightly different too. However, there's a small chance it might be V21, which is 300 baud full duplex. Again, though, CCITT V21 uses different tones to Bell 103. As an aside, when viewdata was popular over here, there were low-cost adapters and software for lots of common machines, including Commodores. > ::Ob.pedantry: it would be Viewdata (comms channels), not teletext > ::(broadcast). > > *blush* :-) I'll let you off -- lots of people don't know the difference :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 23 19:07:54 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: DEC ADV11-A A/D Converter In-Reply-To: healyzh@aracnet.com "Re: DEC ADV11-A A/D Converter" (Mar 23, 16:33) References: <200003240033.QAA11733@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <10003240107.ZM13218@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 23, 16:33, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > Well, I know it's a /23, but I don't know the rev, knowing my luck it's not > a Rev A. I'll have to check, thanks for the warning! > > I gather these things would work in a 16-bit backplane such as my > /03's? Yup, that's what they were designed for. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mbg at world.std.com Thu Mar 23 19:17:49 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: DEC ADV11-A A/D Converter References: <200003240001.TAA08126@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200003240117.UAA08837@world.std.com> >Or, wouldn't it work to just use a Q18 backplane which doesn't bus >BDAL21:18? I would think that even the 11/73 CPU would be OK then, as >long as you don't mind living with 248 KB memory... Yep... that should work too... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Mar 23 19:31:38 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine In-Reply-To: <000601bf934f$6bad9260$6d483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: <200003240134.UAA21195@lexington.ioa.net> This evening I accidentally aquired a PDP-11/23 (model # 11E23-FE). It has RD-52A hard disk and dual floppies like the ones on a Rainbow. What can I do with it? It does boot and is running RT11 with 512k of ram. It appears to have a fault. It often runs for just a few minutes then drops to a @ prompt and starts spitting out strings of ? marks endlessly. Is this a failure anyone is familiar with? How can I tack more ram on it? The machine is is fairly good condition and appears complete. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 23 19:38:55 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:20 2005 Subject: DEC ADV11-A A/D Converter In-Reply-To: <20000323200953.A19892@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Mar 23, 0 08:09:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 500 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000324/fe8ef777/attachment.ksh From paulrsm at ameritech.net Thu Mar 23 20:14:03 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: FOCAL language reference manual? Message-ID: <20000324021411.LISY4547.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Thanks, Tim, I was actually hoping for a FOCAL language reference manual. I started learning computers with a KIM and machine code. I did a little work with FOCAL on the KIM but my memory is very hazy about the language itself. ---------- > From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: FOCAL (was: KIM/6502 code) > Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 12:27 PM > > I hope this helps. If none of these packages meets your needs, you > might ask again for your specific platform(s). Enjoy! From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Mar 23 20:31:19 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: teletype wanted..... In-Reply-To: <10003240105.ZM13203@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Mar 24, 0 01:05:37 am" Message-ID: <200003240231.SAA10620@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Hmm... not really -- it's not quite what I thought. Teletext and Viewdata ::normally use colour, chunky graphics (each character cell is divided into a ::2 x 3 mosaic grid), and a 40 x 25 character screen. So either this is some ::really simple device, or that's just a status display: is there any socket ::anywhere that could be a video or TV connector? Serial connector? Any ::others? What's marked on the keys? No, it definitely doesn't hook up a TV. On the bottom is an acoustic coupler that acts as both microphone and speaker. The keys say things like SEARCH, INSERT, RCVE, LIST/PRINT, ON/STOP and LOAD/DUMP. There is a 1/8" stereo jack on one side which the manual mentions might be connected to an RS232 port (hope someone can translate this! -- it's Dutch and my schoolboy German can't figure out enough words): ** import text ** 10.4 Andere printers Voor het aansluiten van een andere printer dan de PXP 40 kunt u gebruik maken van de meegeleverde kabel (zie afb. 4). De driepolige ronde steker past in de aansluiting aan de linkerkant van de PX 1000. De drie losse draden aan de andere kant van de kabel moeten worden verbonden met de printer, overeenkomstig de handleiding daarvan. De drie draden hebben de volgende functie: wit (A) uitgang naar printer rood (B) ingang voor PX 1000 en voeding afscherming (C) massa De toesten LIST/PRINT, ON/STOP en de regeltoets hebben bij gebruik van een andere printer dezelfde functies als bij de PXP 40. De meeste printers met een RS232-ofwel V24-aansluiting zijn uitgerust met de hier afgebeelde 25-polige connector, waarvan niet alle pennen zijn aangesloten. De meeste printers zullen goed werken als u ze op de hiernaast beschreven manier op de PX 1000 aansluit: [ figure, RS-232 ] [ figure, 1/8" three-connector jack ] wit (A) pen 3 rood (B) pen 20 afscherming (C) pen 7 Verbind de pennen 4, 5, 6 en 8 van de 25-polige connector met behulp van een draad met elkaar door. ** end import ** I can't seem to make out any sections on encoding or standards, but it does offer private-key cryptography. Munitions, anyone? :-) The funky thing is that the *box* is in English, not Dutch, and has a picture of the English keyboard. ** import text ** PX 1000 TEXT TELL (R) Press ON/STOP to switch unit on or to stop any operation. Press <__| to read text line by line or to create a blank line. < backspace |< line start > forward space >| end of line V next line V_ end of text ^ prior line ^ text start This unit will switch itself off (50 sec.) LIST to view first lines of all text in memory. TEXT to start a new text. MARGIN to set right margin (range 10-80). INSERT (TXT) to insert characters (or a full text) within existing text. To end "insert mode" press INSERT again. DELETE (TX) rubout of characters (or a full text). CLEAR ALL press twice to erace all text in memory (de/encoding KEY is preserved). CLR LINE to erase one line only (from cursor to end of line). CODE press twice to decode or encode text fully. KEY to change de/encoding KEY: enter characters & press again. To transmit text: see reverse side. ** end import ** Unfortunately there is no reverse side on the "box" picture, and the bottom of the unit is of course in Dutch. ::If it's European, it will use CCITT tones rather than Bell tones (I'm ::assuming it's simple FSK modulation). The V23 standard is rather like Bell ::202 (V23 uses 2100/1300Hz and 202 uses 2200/1200Hz); half-duplex except ::that it has a modulated 75 baud back-channel, while Bell 202 has a 5 baud ::CW back-channel, a 387Hz tone keyed on and off for signalling. The answer ::tones are slightly different too. However, there's a small chance it might ::be V21, which is 300 baud full duplex. Again, though, CCITT V21 uses ::different tones to Bell 103. What would a typical American modem use? If it helps, the box brags it can send 4 to 5 pages (since the memory is 7400 characters, which the box says is 4 to 5 pages, I assume this is 7400 bytes) within 60 seconds. This can't be a whopping transfer rate. This rotten thing is sounding more and more proprietary all the time. Stinking Philips Corp. :-P But the units look cool, come in a sweet case, and are very sturdy. You could give someone a nasty bruise if you whacked them on the head with one. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Room service? Send up a bigger room. -- Groucho Marx ----------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 23 20:27:46 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine Message-ID: <200003240227.VAA05797@world.std.com> <> Or, wouldn't it work to just use a Q18 backplane which doesn't bus BDAL21 <> I would think that even the 11/73 CPU would be OK then, as long as you do <> mind living with 248 KB memory... < Message-ID: <200003240251.VAA13988@lexington.ioa.net> I guess I must have just gotten lucky to get it to boot those two times. This is what the machine does of the time. KDF11B-BE ROM V0.9 512KB MEMORY 9 STEP MEMORY TEST STEP 1 2ERR RAP 173714 @ Does this mean that the ram card is bad at a given location? If so, there is no reason I can't replace the ram on the card with a desoldering iron. I would like to socketize the ram but I don't think there is enough room between cards to make that happen so I'll have to solder them directly to the board and pray I have no more failures. Is the above 6digit number the location of the failed bit/byte of memory? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 23 21:25:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine Message-ID: <200003240325.WAA20620@world.std.com> of the time. < References: <000601bf934f$6bad9260$6d483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: >This evening I accidentally aquired a PDP-11/23 (model # 11E23-FE). It >has RD-52A hard disk and dual floppies like the ones on a Rainbow. Sweet! >What can I do with it? It does boot and is running RT11 with 512k of ram. Well, I like to use mine for connecting to my ISP, for games, for a little programming, for tinkering, etc. >It appears to have a fault. It often runs for just a few minutes then >drops to a @ prompt and starts spitting out strings of ? marks endlessly. >Is this a failure anyone is familiar with? How can I tack more ram on it? > >The machine is is fairly good condition and appears complete. -- I don't recognize the problem I'm afriad, but 512k is a LOT of RAM! BTW, is that K or KW? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Mar 23 21:40:09 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine In-Reply-To: <200003240227.VAA05797@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200003240338.WAA26341@lexington.ioa.net> Hi there. It looks like the m7605 quarter-inch streaming tape controller has a bad PAL? and won't let the ram test continue. I removed it from the machine and will look for a replacement IC to get it running. I don't have the drive anyway. Thanks for your quick response Allison! The machine does run just fine it appears even without the controller in. RT11 Version 5 / CTS 300 Version 8 is the system rev that posts at startup. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 23 21:46:50 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: DEC ADV11-A A/D Converter In-Reply-To: <200003240227.VAA05936@world.std.com> Message-ID: ><> Or, wouldn't it work to just use a Q18 backplane which doesn't bus BDAL21 ><> I would think that even the 11/73 CPU would be OK then, as long as you do ><> mind living with 248 KB memory... >< > >You can but the collective system will be the least of the two and not >additive on items like address bus width. Likely that would have >wraparound if enough memory or a non BBS7 compatable IO. If a bord is >only Q16 or Q18 the options are mod it if possible for q22 or restrict >the bus useage to the level of the least board. I think all this is a mote point. It's safe to say that I'll either use them in a PDP-11/03 or a PDP-11/23 (of course I've never bothered to get any of either working). Unless someone wants to trade a Q-22 compatible one (any size as I don't need 16-channels) for a pair of them. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Mar 23 22:02:45 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine Message-ID: <200003240402.XAA15473@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200003240412.XAA04289@lexington.ioa.net> It is arrayed in several rows of 64kbit 16pin dips on the ram card and is definitely 512kbyte and is parity ram. Doesn't sound like a huge amount of ram to me as my Data General Mini has 8mb onboard. Now that is a BIG ram card! Does RT11 have: Virtual Memory? Networking? How do I run it? I can do dirs and type files etc but I really need some docs on the operating system to get anywhere with it. Thanks for the reply! -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 23 22:29:11 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine In-Reply-To: <200003240412.XAA04289@lexington.ioa.net> References: Message-ID: >It is arrayed in several rows of 64kbit 16pin dips on the ram card and is >definitely 512kbyte and is parity ram. OK, generally that would be listed as 256KW, so wasn't sure which it was. >Doesn't sound like a huge amount of ram to me as my Data General Mini has >8mb onboard. Now that is a BIG ram card! I had 4MB in my main one, which is where a PDP-11 maxes out, however, I downgraded to 2MB, as I didn't need that much and wanted to keep the other 2MB board as a spare. I'd have even less in the system, but I run a couple other OS's on it that can make better use of RAM (but even for them 2MB is an outrageous amount of RAM for a single user system). >Does RT11 have: > >Virtual Memory? >Networking? >How do I run it? I can do dirs and type files etc but I really need some >docs on the operating system to get anywhere with it. Thanks for the >reply! -- Try typing 'help'. No need for virtual memory that I'm aware of, and as far as I know it doesn't. Do you have an ethernet card for it? If so you can get TCP/IP for it for free (the only PDP-11 OS with free TCP/IP). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Mar 23 22:39:58 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: HP 85 tapes / TU58 tapes References: <20000323185227.BB33A37234@pandora.worldonline.nl> Message-ID: <38DAF19D.DA944489@idirect.com> >W.B.(Wim) Hofman wrote: > If you ask such questions, please state where you are located. As for the > questions, sorry, not interested, but thanks anyway for asking. Jerome Fine replies: You are correct. I am in Toronto - Canada! > > I have a friend who may be selling some of his TU58 / HP 85 > > tapes. Is there anyone who wishes to trade any PDP-11 Qbus > > hardware. I am also looking for a SONY SMO S501 or > > compatible magneto optical drive and cartridges (512 bytes per > > sector). TU58 tapes are small and don't weigh very much. The S501 drive is about 15 lbs. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Mar 23 22:43:46 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN In-Reply-To: <200003240402.XAA15473@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200003240448.XAA11854@lexington.ioa.net> After putting the skins back on the machine it is giving me a ERROR 13 - DU0 not ready error. DAMN! I knew it wouldn't be that easy. I have a couple of spare ST506-type drives to hang off it but don't know how picky the controller is or where to find install media for an operating system. The drive sounds fine (spins up and purges but no boot anymore) DAMN. What free operating systems are out there for this machine. I suppose I will get another drive up and running and then get the data off of this one if it is possible. DAMN. To be honest I think I didn't park the drive before powering off the last time and suspect a head crash wiped the boot sector or something like that. Now when I try to boot I hear the drive track but get this error. DAMN. How can I get boots to restore a system? Yes, I suspect it ran up to six terminals as there are two controlled from the cpu card and four controlled by a terminal controller card. 512KB MEMORY KDF11B-BE ROM V0.9 CLOCK ENABLED BOOT MENU Device Physical Valid Unit Name Device Numbers DU DSA 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 DL RL01/RL02 0 1 2 3 DX RX01 0 1 DY RX02 0 1 DD TU58 0 1 XH QNA 0 1 MS TQK25/TS05 0 TRYING UNIT DU0 ERROR UNIT DU0 ERR 13 DRIVE NOT READY WISH TO REBOOT [Y,(N)]? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Mar 23 22:53:33 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine In-Reply-To: <200003240227.VAA05797@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200003240451.XAA12399@lexington.ioa.net> In my defense, the machine was in parts when I got it and the person who did this could not get the machine to boot at all and suspected the drive had no operating system on it at all or that the drive was broken.... -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Mar 23 22:56:42 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine References: <200003240412.XAA04289@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <38DAF589.4300D2FF@idirect.com> >Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > It is arrayed in several rows of 64kbit 16pin dips on the ram card and is > definitely 512kbyte and is parity ram. Jerome Fine replies: If that is one board, it sounds like an M8067 board. If you have a BA23 box with 8 slots total and some are unused, than more M8067 memory is basically free if you can find some. > Doesn't sound like a huge amount of ram to me as my Data General Mini has > 8mb onboard. Now that is a BIG ram card! RT-11 does not need much memory. I don't have any experience with CTS300. > Does RT11 have: > Virtual Memory? > Networking? > How do I run it? I can do dirs and type files etc but I really need some > docs on the operating system to get anywhere with it. Thanks for the > reply! -- Virtual memory - yes! It grabs RAM if you have enough (which you do not) and the VM.SYS device driver makes VM: look like a disk drive. If you had 4 MBytes of memory and used 2 MBytes for VM:, that would give you a device of 4096 blocks. For networking, you can use TCPIP. Which version of RT-11? V5.0x will be displayed at boot. Or type the command "SHOW CONFIG" and that will do it after you boot. It may be off the screen - "CTRL/S" will stop the display ("CTRL/Q" restarts the display) or NOSCROLL if you have that on your keyboard will toggle that aspect for the display. DOCs are THREE feet of binders. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 23 23:33:43 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine In-Reply-To: <38DAF589.4300D2FF@idirect.com> References: <200003240412.XAA04289@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: >Virtual memory - yes! It grabs RAM if you have enough (which you do not) >and the VM.SYS device driver makes VM: look like a disk drive. If you had >4 MBytes of memory and used 2 MBytes for VM:, that would give you a device >of 4096 blocks. Jerome, I think he's talking about the opposite of what you mean. You mean using RAM as a disk, right? I believe he means using disk for RAM. Which is something I personally try to avoid like the plague! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mbg at world.std.com Thu Mar 23 23:39:44 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine Message-ID: <200003240539.AAA24024@world.std.com> >Doesn't sound like a huge amount of ram to me as my Data General Mini has >8mb onboard. Now that is a BIG ram card! Remember that the max physical memory on Qbus is 4mb... >Does RT11 have: > >Virtual Memory? Depends on which monitor you are running... the SJ(SB) and FB monitors only use 28kw (56kb)... that is all there is for the OS and user programs. Any additional memory *can* be used as a fast disk volume. Programs should not touch the memory mapping registers, though they can (RT allows one to shoot one's self in the foot) The XM monitor takes over the memory management of the machine and provides system services to allow programs access to all the rest of memory -- but programs have to be written specially to make use of it, otherwise they exist in a 32kw virtual address space. >Networking? Not integral... there was DECnet/RT, but that was only Phase III, and no Ethernet. It was because of this that I wrote a piece of networking software for RT machines specifically (check my web page). There is a package from DECUS which provides a TCP/IP stack... You can find it through www.trailing-edge.com (or is it metalab.unc.edu that has it). Anyway, I think it is decus package 110939 (but I might be wrong). >How do I run it? I can do dirs and type files etc but I really need some >docs on the operating system to get anywhere with it. Thanks for the >reply! -- Try HELP... it will give you the commands available. Unlike MS/DOS and Windows, which don't come with any program development tools, RT is an execution environment *and* a development environment... the tools you need to write your own programs come with the distribution -- an assembler (MACRO), a linker (LINK), a module librarian (LIBR) and several debuggers (ODT, VDT, DBG). Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Mar 23 23:51:48 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN Message-ID: <200003240551.AAA12694@world.std.com> >After putting the skins back on the machine it is giving me a ERROR 13 - >DU0 not ready error. If you have a BA23, make sure that the pushbuttons on the front panel are set correctly (one is for drive enable, one is for drive write protect). >I knew it wouldn't be that easy. I have a couple of spare ST506-type >drives to hang off it but don't know how picky the controller is or where >to find install media for an operating system. The drive sounds fine >(spins up and purges but no boot anymore) DAMN. Depending on which RQDX interface you have, you may or may not be able to put any ST506 disk on it that you want... early controllers were pre-programmed with the characteristics of the disks they would work with... anything else couldn't be used. I don't know if the RQDX3 allows more lattitude, but using RD52, RD53 or RD54 is the way to go, if you can find them... >What free operating systems are out there for this machine. I suppose I >will get another drive up and running and then get the data off of this >one if it is possible. DAMN. Precious little... If you want to run Unix, you could try to get Ultrix-11, but that was retired by DEC long before it was acquired by Compaq. All the pdp-11 operating systems from DEC are licensed. You could run *real* BSD Unix, but for an 11/23[+], you'll need 2.9BSD. A license will cost $100 (check with the PUPS web page). >To be honest I think I didn't park the drive before powering off the last >time and suspect a head crash wiped the boot sector or something like >that. Now when I try to boot I hear the drive track but get this error. >DAMN. Ouch... there was a problem with earlier controller boards when powering off the system box before the disk... the write signals would go active and the disk would have garbage randomly written on it... >How can I get boots to restore a system? Again... the DEC PDP-11 operating systems are licensed software, they can't simply be handed out... Yes, I suspect it ran up to six terminals as there are two controlled from the cpu card and four controlled by a terminal controller card. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 23 23:58:27 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: looking for Hazeltine terminals Message-ID: <14555.1027.140770.881751@phaduka.neurotica.com> Hi folks, I'm looking to acquire two models of terminals made by Hazeltine, the 1500 and the Esprit, in good operational and cosmetic condition. I used each of these for a long time many years ago and I'd like to keep one of each for sentimental reasons. Does anyone on the list have one that they'd be willing to part with? I'm willing to pay a reasonable sum. Please let me know. Thanks! -Dave McGuire From mbg at world.std.com Fri Mar 24 00:16:37 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine References: <200003240412.XAA04289@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <200003240616.BAA00775@world.std.com> >I think he's talking about the opposite of what you mean. You mean using >RAM as a disk, right? I believe he means using disk for RAM. Which is >something I personally try to avoid like the plague! Actually, it gets more confusing with RT-11, since the term 'virtual memory' refers to the address space a program can access... it has nothing to do with disk space... The way to think of it is -- physical memory is the memory the machine has while virtual memory is what a program can see at any one time. And with 16 bits worth of address space, that maximum is 32kw (64kb) at any one time... of course, you can remap portions of your address space to elsewhere in physical memory, but you are always limited to accessing 64kb at one time (128kb -- 64kb I-space and 64kb D-space if you have a processor with separated I and D spaces) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 24 01:09:40 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: Best PDP-8/e pics I've seen Message-ID: OK, this is a little wierd. Let me start by saying I have no clue as to who the person is selling the system, I just think the pictures are the best I've seen. Beware, they're big, and there is three of them. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=291428599 I thought the first two were especially nice. Really make my -8/m shots look horrible. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 24 01:14:41 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: Best PDP-8/e pics I've seen In-Reply-To: Best PDP-8/e pics I've seen (Zane H. Healy) References: Message-ID: <14555.5601.845390.262626@phaduka.neurotica.com> On March 23, Zane H. Healy wrote: > OK, this is a little wierd. Let me start by saying I have no clue as to > who the person is selling the system, I just think the pictures are the > best I've seen. Beware, they're big, and there is three of them. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=291428599 Yes they are nice pics. pdp8s sure are good looking machines. especially when they're running! :-) -Dave McGuire From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Mar 24 02:25:00 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: DEC ADV11-A A/D Converter In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: DEC ADV11-A A/D Converter" (Mar 24, 1:38) References: Message-ID: <10003240824.ZM13546@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 24, 1:38, Tony Duell wrote: > Or maybe you could put the CPU/RAM/DMA peripherals in a Q22 backplane and > then link that to a Q18 backplay with the ADV11 card in it. If you like, > you could connect BDAL18-BDAL21 between Qbus In and Qbus Out on that > backplane, so that you could have more Q22 backplanes 'dowstream' of it. Wouldn't it be much easier just to modify the ADV11-A? Since the print set shows it does use BBS7, and BC1 is simply grounded, it's apparently just a case of cutting one track to make it work in a Q22 system. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From wrm at ccii.co.za Fri Mar 24 04:41:37 2000 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: WinCE (was teletype wanted.....) Message-ID: <200003241041.MAA04594@ccii.co.za> >They're black, about the size of (spit) a Windows CE box, I guess. It folds WinCE boxen have one very neat use. Put Frotz on it and run old Infocom games. I recently inherited a Compaq C140 (Cassiopeia A11) and even though it's not 10 years old, it's more obsolete than many 10 year old systems :-) I'm looking for the WinCE 2 upgrade, I even have a part number (ZE20UK or ZE21UK) but... Anyway, so I downloaded dungeon (what zork was called before it was split in three to fit on a ~100K floppy) and I saw a familiar name - Thanks Ethan! Wouter From sipke at wxs.nl Fri Mar 24 05:17:14 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: Pretty Park Worm Virus Message-ID: <002201bf9582$f47bbba0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> English: I have become infected with the prettypark virus and as a concequence you may have gotten an e-mail with the prettypark trojan that distributes the virus. DO NOT OPEN OR EXECUTE THE PRETTYPARK PROGRAM (ON DESKTOP) !!!! If you have become infected connect with the McAfee site for info and advice I will also include a registryfix to disable the virus from the registry. execute it by double clikking on the extracted file. Subscequently use an updated virusscanner to clean any prettypark debris from your system Your e-mail contacts may also have become infected so it may be nessecary to forward this note Do so with the inclusion of the nopretty.reg registryfix. www.mcafee.com I apologize for the hassle. Dutch: Ik ben helaas besmet geraakt met het Prettypark virus. Dien tengevolge kunt u van mij een E-mail hebben ontvangen die de Prettypark trojaan bevat en het prettypark wormvirus op uw computer zet. OPEN DEZE ATTATCHMENT NIET EN VOER HEM NIET UIT (OP DE DESKTOP) !!! Mocht u dat wel gedaan hebben dan is de kans groot dat ook uw systeem besmet is. Neem dan contact op met de internet site van McAfee en raadpleeg daar de info aangaande het prettypark virus. Ik heb ook een register opschoner bijgevoegd die het virus kan deactiveren in uw systeemregister. Pak deze bijlage uit en dubbelklik erop zodat deze regfix uw systeemregister kan schonen van prettypark troep (dan is het virus nog niet verwijdert maar stopt de verdere werking voorlopig) Haal dan een verse update van uw virusscanner, installeer deze, herstart uw computer en voer een volledige virusscan op uw systeem uit. In dien u besmet geraakt bent kunnen uw E-mail contacten deze besmetting ook weer via u oplopen. In dat geval kan het handig zijn om dit bericht aan al uw contacten door te sturen (nadat u uw evt besmetting verholpen heeft) Voeg dan ook de nopretty.reg registerfix aan uw berich toe www.mcafee.com Mijn verontschuldigingen voor eventuele besmettingen. Sipke de Wal "Only frankness can defeat VD, and for hat I'm not ashamed" "Alleen openheid kan SOA bestrijden, en daarvoor schaam ik mij niet" -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: nopretty.reg Type: application/octet-stream Size: 154 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000324/48d1f56b/nopretty.obj From sipke at wxs.nl Fri Mar 24 05:22:09 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: Pretty Park = VIRUS !!!! Message-ID: <003601bf9583$346434e0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> English: I have become infected with the prettypark virus and as a concequence you may have gotten an e-mail with the prettypark trojan that distributes the virus. DO NOT OPEN OR EXECUTE THE PRETTYPARK PROGRAM (ON DESKTOP) !!!! If you have become infected connect with the McAfee site for info and advice I will also include a registryfix to disable the virus from the registry. execute it by double clikking on the extracted file. Subscequently use an updated virusscanner to clean any prettypark debris from your system Your e-mail contacts may also have become infected so it may be nessecary to forward this note Do so with the inclusion of the nopretty.reg registryfix. www.mcafee.com I apologize for the hassle. Dutch: Ik ben helaas besmet geraakt met het Prettypark virus. Dien tengevolge kunt u van mij een E-mail hebben ontvangen die de Prettypark trojaan bevat en het prettypark wormvirus op uw computer zet. OPEN DEZE ATTATCHMENT NIET EN VOER HEM NIET UIT (OP DE DESKTOP) !!! Mocht u dat wel gedaan hebben dan is de kans groot dat ook uw systeem besmet is. Neem dan contact op met de internet site van McAfee en raadpleeg daar de info aangaande het prettypark virus. Ik heb ook een register opschoner bijgevoegd die het virus kan deactiveren in uw systeemregister. Pak deze bijlage uit en dubbelklik erop zodat deze regfix uw systeemregister kan schonen van prettypark troep (dan is het virus nog niet verwijdert maar stopt de verdere werking voorlopig) Haal dan een verse update van uw virusscanner, installeer deze, herstart uw computer en voer een volledige virusscan op uw systeem uit. In dien u besmet geraakt bent kunnen uw E-mail contacten deze besmetting ook weer via u oplopen. In dat geval kan het handig zijn om dit bericht aan al uw contacten door te sturen (nadat u uw evt besmetting verholpen heeft) Voeg dan ook de nopretty.reg registerfix aan uw berich toe www.mcafee.com Mijn verontschuldigingen voor eventuele besmettingen. Sipke de Wal "Only frankness can defeat VD, and for hat I'm not ashamed" "Alleen openheid kan SOA bestrijden, en daarvoor schaam ik mij niet" -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: nopretty.reg Type: application/octet-stream Size: 154 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000324/b0739260/nopretty.obj From broth at heathers.stdio.com Fri Mar 24 06:33:30 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine References: <200003240412.XAA04289@lexington.ioa.net> <200003240616.BAA00775@world.std.com> Message-ID: <38DB609A.551D4FF7@heathers.stdio.com> While we on the subject of the 23, I just installed a RQDX2 controller in my 23+ and hooked up an RD-53 to it. My maint pack only has a RQDX exerciser and not the format program. I assume this was for the RQDX1. Does anyone have available on the web or know where I can find the XXDP format program. It should be ZRQB??.BIN. Brian. Megan wrote: > >I think he's talking about the opposite of what you mean. You mean using > >RAM as a disk, right? I believe he means using disk for RAM. Which is > >something I personally try to avoid like the plague! > > Actually, it gets more confusing with RT-11, since the term 'virtual > memory' refers to the address space a program can access... it has > nothing to do with disk space... > > The way to think of it is -- physical memory is the memory the machine > has while virtual memory is what a program can see at any one time. > And with 16 bits worth of address space, that maximum is 32kw (64kb) > at any one time... of course, you can remap portions of your address > space to elsewhere in physical memory, but you are always limited to > accessing 64kb at one time (128kb -- 64kb I-space and 64kb D-space if > you have a processor with separated I and D spaces) > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | > | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | > | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | > | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Mar 24 07:40:23 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: Zor (was Re: WinCE (was teletype wanted.....)) Message-ID: <20000324134023.17827.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- Wouter de Waal wrote: > WinCE boxen have one very neat use. Put Frotz on it and run old > Infocom games. I use my Palm for that. ;-) > Anyway, so I downloaded dungeon (what zork was called before it > was split in three to fit on a ~100K floppy) and I saw a familiar > name - Thanks Ethan! You're welcome. I know someone took the zdungeon image and split it onto two C= floppies, grabbed a Z5 interpreter and played it on their C-64. *That's* dedication. Me, I developed it on an old SPARCstation that's probably classic by now. http://penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/zdungeon/ (.z5 and .pdb format) -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Mar 24 07:48:16 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine Message-ID: <20000324134816.18765.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- Megan wrote: > > >I think he's talking about the opposite of what you mean. You mean using > >RAM as a disk, right? I believe he means using disk for RAM. Which is > >something I personally try to avoid like the plague! > > Actually, it gets more confusing with RT-11, since the term 'virtual > memory' refers to the address space a program can access... it has > nothing to do with disk space... I thought the physical/virtual memory distinction in this case was more of a PDP-11 processor concept than specifically RT-11. > The way to think of it is -- physical memory is the memory the machine > has while virtual memory is what a program can see at any one time. > And with 16 bits worth of address space, that maximum is 32kw (64kb) > at any one time... of course, you can remap portions of your address > space to elsewhere in physical memory, but you are always limited to > accessing 64kb at one time (128kb -- 64kb I-space and 64kb D-space if > you have a processor with separated I and D spaces) It used to bend my brain around backwards until I worked with RT-11 for a while. The problem is that the PDP-11 has mini-computer attributes, but is only 16-bit. Let's try a cross-platform comparison... Machine A: VAX running BSD. Machine B: PDP-11 running BSD. (Easy so far ;-) The PDP-11 has 2Mb of physical memory; the VAX has 2Mb of physical memory. Now comes the tricky part: the *virtual* address space for a program on the VAX is 4Gb, 32 bits. Since well-behaved PDP-11 programs don't twiddle memory management bits, the *virtual* address space for a program on the PDP-11 is 64K (or perhaps 128K if split I&D). Because of the physical nature of the beasts, the VAX has much more virtual address space than physical memory, but the PDP-11 is the other way around. It's just like Megan said, but I've added what might be a more familar model for comparison. It made me woozy at first, too. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 24 07:50:28 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine In-Reply-To: <200003240412.XAA04289@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: > Doesn't sound like a huge amount of ram to me as my Data General Mini has > 8mb onboard. Now that is a BIG ram card! I can't speak for that as it may be a 32bit machine. PdP-11s are limited to 4mb (22bit) and are 16bit machine with memory management to get that extended address. > Does RT11 have: > > Virtual Memory? Not really though there is a virtual disk VM: that is useable as ramdisk. I does swapping. > Networking? Yes depending on version. > How do I run it? I can do dirs and type files etc but I really need some > docs on the operating system to get anywhere with it. Thanks for the > reply! -- RT-11 is a 16 bit real time OS and falls in the small OS bracket. that doesn't mean it's simple or lacks capability on that if you need a mor sophisticated OS for timesharing and multipprogramming there are otehrs in the (THEN) DEC l;ine up including RSX-11 and RSTS-11. The minima for running RT-11 is some 16kB of ram and some media (tape, disk, rom) to boot from and the version running will often require a standard console port unless specifically built out. RT-11 has several standard versions: RT11-SJ A single job monitor and small RT11-B Batch monitor also quite small for batched jobs RT11-FB A version that runs jobs in both forground and background RT11-XM XM is an extended monitor for extended memory systems and multiterminal/job applications. Those were brief to the point of pain. Utilities are such that most people used to PC- DOS will find most familiar mostly. A bootable system could have a wide range of configurations tha smallest of which easily fits on a 256kb floppy. Allison From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Fri Mar 24 15:35:06 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN Message-ID: <20000324135130.E11BB379CA@rhea.worldonline.nl> I have formatted a number of MFM ST506 drives (e.g. ST-225) with an RQDX3 on my Qbus PDP-11's. Be careful to set the drives on address 3. I used the maintenance program ZRQCH0.BIC. This maintenace software is available on floppy disk. I boot a XXDP+ disk image from an emulated TU-58 on a PC running the emulator program from Sytze Zijlstra This emulator is also very useful to transport data between PC and PDP-11. Wim Hofman ---------- > From: Technoid@cheta.net > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN > Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 8:43 PM > ---------- > From: Technoid@cheta.net > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN > Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 8:43 PM > > After putting the skins back on the machine it is giving me a ERROR 13 - > DU0 not ready error. > > DAMN! > > I knew it wouldn't be that easy. I have a couple of spare ST506-type > drives to hang off it but don't know how picky the controller is or where > to find install media for an operating system. The drive sounds fine > (spins up and purges but no boot anymore) DAMN. > > What free operating systems are out there for this machine. I suppose I > will get another drive up and running and then get the data off of this > one if it is possible. DAMN. > > To be honest I think I didn't park the drive before powering off the last > time and suspect a head crash wiped the boot sector or something like > that. Now when I try to boot I hear the drive track but get this error. > DAMN. > > How can I get boots to restore a system? > > Yes, I suspect it ran up to six terminals as there are two controlled from > the cpu card and four controlled by a terminal controller card. > > > 512KB MEMORY KDF11B-BE ROM V0.9 CLOCK > ENABLED > > BOOT MENU > > Device Physical Valid Unit > Name Device Numbers > > DU DSA 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 > DL RL01/RL02 0 1 2 3 > DX RX01 0 1 > DY RX02 0 1 > DD TU58 0 1 > XH QNA 0 1 > MS TQK25/TS05 0 > > > TRYING UNIT DU0 > > ERROR UNIT DU0 > ERR 13 DRIVE NOT READY > WISH TO REBOOT [Y,(N)]? > > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Technical Services > Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. > 1979B Hendersonville Road > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days > 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- > From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Fri Mar 24 15:31:11 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:21 2005 Subject: teletype wanted..... Message-ID: <20000324135126.12D253795F@rhea.worldonline.nl> I tried to translate the dutch I wish you luck Wim Hofman ---------- > From: Cameron Kaiser > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: teletype wanted..... > Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 6:31 PM > > > No, it definitely doesn't hook up a TV. On the bottom is an acoustic coupler > that acts as both microphone and speaker. The keys say things like SEARCH, > INSERT, RCVE, LIST/PRINT, ON/STOP and LOAD/DUMP. There is a 1/8" stereo > jack on one side which the manual mentions might be connected to an RS232 > port (hope someone can translate this! -- it's Dutch and my schoolboy German > can't figure out enough words): > > ** import text ** To connect another printer than the PXP40 you can use the enclosed cable (see figure 4). The 3 pole round plug fits in the connection at the left hand side of the PX1000. The three loose wires at the other end of the cable should be connected to the printer according to the manual of it. The three wires have the following function: White (A) output to printer Red (B) input for PX1000 and power Screen (C) mass The buttons LIST/PRINT, ON/STOP and the linebutton have the same function as with the PXP40 when you use another printer. > 10.4 Andere printers > Voor het aansluiten van een andere printer dan de PXP 40 kunt u gebruik maken > van de meegeleverde kabel (zie afb. 4). De driepolige ronde steker past in de > aansluiting aan de linkerkant van de PX 1000. De drie losse draden aan de > andere kant van de kabel moeten worden verbonden met de printer, overeenkomstig > de handleiding daarvan. De drie draden hebben de volgende functie: > > wit (A) uitgang naar printer > rood (B) ingang voor PX 1000 en voeding > afscherming (C) massa > > De toesten LIST/PRINT, ON/STOP en de regeltoets hebben bij gebruik van een > andere printer dezelfde functies als bij de PXP 40. > Most printers with an RS232 or V24 are equipped with the here shown 25-pole connector. Not all pins are connected. Most printers will work when you connect them in the here shown manner. White (A) pin 3 Red (B) pin 20 Screen (C) pin 7 Connect pins 4,5,6 and 8 of the 25 pole connector with a wire. > De meeste printers met een RS232-ofwel V24-aansluiting zijn uitgerust met de > hier afgebeelde 25-polige connector, waarvan niet alle pennen zijn > aangesloten. De meeste printers zullen goed werken als u ze op de hiernaast > beschreven manier op de PX 1000 aansluit: > > [ figure, RS-232 ] > > [ figure, 1/8" three-connector jack ] > > wit (A) pen 3 > rood (B) pen 20 > afscherming (C) pen 7 > > Verbind de pennen 4, 5, 6 en 8 van de 25-polige connector met behulp van > een draad met elkaar door. > > ** end import ** > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 24 08:02:28 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN In-Reply-To: <200003240448.XAA11854@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > After putting the skins back on the machine it is giving me a ERROR 13 - > DU0 not ready error. > > DAMN! Lessee, dud you puch the offline(READY) or WRITELOCK buttons? All cables on and correctly positioned? I doubt it that the disk failed unless you outright dropped it. If memeory serves you said its a RD52 (quantum D540 31 MB) and those are known for being near indestructable. > I knew it wouldn't be that easy. I have a couple of spare ST506-type > drives to hang off it but don't know how picky the controller is or where The controller depending on which one you have is quit able to accept a large number of drives. BUT, they must be formetted for it and the average PC controller will not do it. > to find install media for an operating system. The drive sounds fine > (spins up and purges but no boot anymore) DAMN. Likely it's still there. Finding media is easy BUT, RT-11 is a licensed OS that is still actively sold and used (not cheap either). A free OS none I know of. You can get a license for unix (PUPS) for 100$ that entitles you to a whole raft of versions that run on PDP11 and sources as well. > To be honest I think I didn't park the drive before powering off the last > time and suspect a head crash wiped the boot sector or something like > that. Now when I try to boot I hear the drive track but get this error. If RD52 it's a voicecoil drive and it's automatic. It's possible to munge the disk on powerdown but less than likely. > How can I get boots to restore a system? ??boots??? List of BOOT roms in the machine for the purpose of booting a device. > > DU DSA 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 > DL RL01/RL02 0 1 2 3 > DX RX01 0 1 > DY RX02 0 1 > DD TU58 0 1 > XH QNA 0 1 > MS TQK25/TS05 0 FYI: QNA is network, PDP-11s did MOP boot. > ERROR UNIT DU0 > ERR 13 DRIVE NOT READY > WISH TO REBOOT [Y,(N)]? Cable, READY button, or other problem or wrong boot device selected (may not be DU0, could be DUn). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 24 08:06:03 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine In-Reply-To: <38DAF589.4300D2FF@idirect.com> Message-ID: > Virtual memory - yes! It grabs RAM if you have enough (which you do not) > and the VM.SYS device driver makes VM: look like a disk drive. If you had > 4 MBytes of memory and used 2 MBytes for VM:, that would give you a device > of 4096 blocks. VM: is not virtual memory, it is ramdisk. VM would be paging unused or old sections of code to disk to make the system ram look logiccally larger than the physical. RT-11 doesn't, it does swap jobs to a disk (or VM:). True virtual memory on PDP11 is implmented in unix and RSX OSs. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 24 08:14:10 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Jerome, > I think he's talking about the opposite of what you mean. You mean using > RAM as a disk, right? I believe he means using disk for RAM. Which is > something I personally try to avoid like the plague! Correct it's ramdisk. RT-11 however is pretty good using it. I happen to run RT-11-FB on a BA-11/VA box (Q22ized 4slots) using 11/23 and TU58. I copy core rt-11 and utilities to VM: (~190kb) and boot/run from there as its much faster than tape! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 24 08:17:47 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: looking for Hazeltine terminals In-Reply-To: <14555.1027.140770.881751@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > Hi folks, > I'm looking to acquire two models of terminals made by Hazeltine, > the 1500 and the Esprit, in good operational and cosmetic condition. > I used each of these for a long time many years ago and I'd like to > keep one of each for sentimental reasons. Does anyone on the list Your missing the 1000 (early glass tty): Also 1400, 1420 1500, 1510, 1520, 1552(vt52 clone). Allison From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Mar 24 08:42:30 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: Zor (was Re: WinCE (was teletype wanted.....)) In-Reply-To: <20000324134023.17827.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Mar 24, 0 05:40:23 am" Message-ID: <200003241442.GAA16284@oa.ptloma.edu> ::You're welcome. I know someone took the zdungeon image and split it ::onto two C= floppies, grabbed a Z5 interpreter and played it on their ::C-64. *That's* dedication. Me, I developed it on an old SPARCstation ::that's probably classic by now. *You* developed it? :-P For the record, I run all my Infocom games on the 64. The black screen interpreter is fast and can even preload the game into an REU, meaning it will play entirely from memory. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Make welfare as hard to get as building permits. --------------------------- From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Mar 24 08:55:17 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: teletype wanted..... In-Reply-To: <20000324135126.12D253795F@rhea.worldonline.nl> from "W.B." at "Mar 24, 0 01:31:11 pm" Message-ID: <200003241455.GAA12898@oa.ptloma.edu> ::I tried to translate the dutch ::I wish you luck I'll need it :-) Thanks for your help! -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- The best of all: God is with us. -- John Wesley ---------------------------- From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Mar 24 09:15:57 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: Zork (was Re: WinCE (was teletype wanted.....)) Message-ID: <20000324151557.230.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > ::You're welcome. I know someone took the zdungeon image and split it > ::onto two C= floppies, grabbed a Z5 interpreter and played it on their > ::C-64. *That's* dedication. Me, I developed it on an old SPARCstation > ::that's probably classic by now. > > *You* developed it? :-P Yes. I developed zdungeon. It's a port to Inform directly from the MDL Zork sources. I did not say in the above paragraph that I wrote Zork. Perhaps that's the source of your ":-P"? > For the record, I run all my Infocom games on the 64. The black screen > interpreter is fast and can even preload the game into an REU, meaning it > will play entirely from memory. I never that that opportunity. When I was playing Infocom games on my C-64, all I had was a 1541. :-( -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From technoid at cheta.net Fri Mar 24 09:23:30 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: Computer Parts Barn contact info In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200003241525.KAA20316@lexington.ioa.net> For those of you interested in older computer components: Ed Kirby of Computer Parts Barn is checking his e-mail at least daily. E-mail him your requests/queries at: EDCPB@EMAIL.COM -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Mar 24 09:26:14 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN In-Reply-To: <20000324135130.E11BB379CA@rhea.worldonline.nl> Message-ID: I did a search on Sytze Zijlstra and came up with nil - do you happen to have a link for this emulator? Thanks, Aaron On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, W.B.(Wim) Hofman wrote: > I have formatted a number of MFM ST506 drives (e.g. ST-225) with an RQDX3 > on my Qbus PDP-11's. Be careful to set the drives on address 3. I used the > maintenance program ZRQCH0.BIC. This maintenace software is available on > floppy disk. > I boot a XXDP+ disk image from an emulated TU-58 on a PC running the > emulator program from Sytze Zijlstra This emulator is also very useful to > transport data between PC and PDP-11. > > Wim Hofman > > ---------- > > From: Technoid@cheta.net > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN > > Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 8:43 PM > > > > > ---------- > > From: Technoid@cheta.net > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN > > Date: Thursday, March 23, 2000 8:43 PM > > > > After putting the skins back on the machine it is giving me a ERROR 13 - > > DU0 not ready error. > > > > DAMN! > > > > I knew it wouldn't be that easy. I have a couple of spare ST506-type > > drives to hang off it but don't know how picky the controller is or where > > to find install media for an operating system. The drive sounds fine > > (spins up and purges but no boot anymore) DAMN. > > > > What free operating systems are out there for this machine. I suppose I > > will get another drive up and running and then get the data off of this > > one if it is possible. DAMN. > > > > To be honest I think I didn't park the drive before powering off the last > > time and suspect a head crash wiped the boot sector or something like > > that. Now when I try to boot I hear the drive track but get this error. > > DAMN. > > > > How can I get boots to restore a system? > > > > Yes, I suspect it ran up to six terminals as there are two controlled > from > > the cpu card and four controlled by a terminal controller card. > > > > > > 512KB MEMORY KDF11B-BE ROM V0.9 CLOCK > > ENABLED > > > > BOOT MENU > > > > Device Physical Valid Unit > > Name Device Numbers > > > > DU DSA 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 > > DL RL01/RL02 0 1 2 3 > > DX RX01 0 1 > > DY RX02 0 1 > > DD TU58 0 1 > > XH QNA 0 1 > > MS TQK25/TS05 0 > > > > > > TRYING UNIT DU0 > > > > ERROR UNIT DU0 > > ERR 13 DRIVE NOT READY > > WISH TO REBOOT [Y,(N)]? > > > > > > -- > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jeffrey S. Worley > > Technical Services > > Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. > > 1979B Hendersonville Road > > Asheville, NC 28803 > > 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days > > 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax > > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > > Technoid@Cheta.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 24 09:54:57 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: Fwd: Line Printer Art Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000324095136.0200b7a0@pc> I received this piece of fan mail from someone who had visited my Ancient Alphabetic Art page at http://www.threedee.com/jcm/aaa/ . It sounds like he's making an interesting video. I'm sure he'd appreciate any insights from list members. I haven't checked my archives to see if I have this American Gothic image. If I don't, I might beg someone to help him recover the files from his tape... - John >Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:47:48 -0500 >From: Douglas Harms >Subject: Line Printer Art >To: jfoust@threedee.com > >John: > >Hi! I'm on the faculty at DePauw University in Greencastle Indiana. One >of the projects two of my students and I are currently working on is a >video of an old PDP-11/10 I have. In the video several people go back in >time to the 1970's to see the PDP-11 in action. (I know, it's pretty >corny, but what can I say?) I'd like to create a 1970's era computer >center environment for this portion of the video. One of the things I >remember from my college days (in the 70's) is line printer art; I came >upon your page at the Jefferson Computer Museum during my search and was >quite impressed with the number of images you have in your collection. > >I'd like to print some images on our line printer and was wondering if any >of your files are available for download. > >Any help or suggestions you could give me would be appreicated. > >Thanks! > >--Doug > >p.s. I actually have a mag tape I made 22 years ago on a PDP-11/45 running >RSTS that contains 10 overstrike pictures. Unfortunately, I don't seem to >be able to read this tape anymore :-( Most of these pictures are probably >duplicates of yours (playboy-type pictures, if I recall correctly), but one >is a large image of American Gothic, which I didn't see in your list. If I >am ever successful at reading these files I'd be happy to send them to you >if you'd like. >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Douglas Harms, Associate Professor of Computer Science >Department of Computer Science >DePauw University >Greencastle, IN 46135 --------------------------------------- > | Hofstadter's Law: >email: dharms@depauw.edu | Everything takes longer than >voice: 765.658.4727 | expected, even when Hofstadter's >fax: 765.658.4732 | Law is taken into account. >---------------------------------------------------------------------- From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Fri Mar 24 10:16:42 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: Zork (was Re: WinCE (was teletype wanted.....)) In-Reply-To: <20000324151557.230.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Mar 24, 0 07:15:57 am" Message-ID: <200003241616.IAA06904@oa.ptloma.edu> ::> *You* developed it? :-P :: ::Yes. I developed zdungeon. It's a port to Inform directly from the ::MDL Zork sources. I did not say in the above paragraph that I wrote Zork. ::Perhaps that's the source of your ":-P"? Heh, yeah, misunderstood. If so, I bet Marc Blank would be over to waggle a virtual finger at you in a hurry. >:-) Sorry! ::> For the record, I run all my Infocom games on the 64. The black screen ::> interpreter is fast and can even preload the game into an REU, meaning it ::> will play entirely from memory. :: ::I never that that opportunity. When I was playing Infocom games on my C-64, ::all I had was a 1541. :-( I got my geoRAM last night. While it's ostensibly for GEOS, it works just fine with other things. It's not an REU -- actually, I think it's better, since you can build a clone with off the shelf components (instead of that rotten REC chip) and it has a very low power draw (unlike the REU, which eats 64 power supplies for lunch). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- It's not enough to be Hungarian. You must have talent too. -- Alex Korda --- From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 24 10:23:58 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine In-Reply-To: <20000324134816.18765.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > memory management bits, the *virtual* address space for a program on the > PDP-11 is 64K (or perhaps 128K if split I&D). Because of the physical No the addressable space is 65k, the logical addressable space is 64k without virtualization and 4mb with(for q22). Virtual address space is something programs believes exists and is an artificail construct. VAXes that space is 4gb as a contigious space where pdp11s is only 64k as contigious space. however if done to the max there is no limit for the PDP-11 case save for physical disk. The real part is virtual space is not always fast and has high overhead to manage. The desireable aprt is even with a vax it's was rare back when to have 16 or 32 MB yet want to process a model whose matrix could easily be several hundres of megabytes. Virtualization allows the program to ignore physical boundries at the expense of speed. This is why systems like 11/70s (and big novas) were so hot in the late 70s. They could support the virtualization using software and MMU. It's' a cool concept and when applied to something like Z280 with 16mb address space it's quite powerful. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 24 10:27:48 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN In-Reply-To: <20000324135130.E11BB379CA@rhea.worldonline.nl> from "W.B.(Wim) Hofman" at Mar 24, 2000 01:35:06 PM Message-ID: <200003241627.IAA20043@shell1.aracnet.com> > I boot a XXDP+ disk image from an emulated TU-58 on a PC running the > emulator program from Sytze Zijlstra This emulator is also very useful to > transport data between PC and PDP-11. > > Wim Hofman What emulator program? I don't believe I've heard of this one. Zane From transit at lerctr.org Fri Mar 24 11:21:41 2000 From: transit at lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: Computer Parts Barn contact info In-Reply-To: <200003241525.KAA20316@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 technoid@cheta.net wrote: > For those of you interested in older computer components: > > Ed Kirby of Computer Parts Barn is checking his e-mail at least daily. > What kind of stuff does he have? Micros and their peripherals, or mostly mini/mainframe stuff? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Mar 24 11:54:32 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: looking for Hazeltine terminals In-Reply-To: Re: looking for Hazeltine terminals (allisonp@world.std.com) References: <14555.1027.140770.881751@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <14555.43992.428347.711408@phaduka.neurotica.com> On March 24, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > I'm looking to acquire two models of terminals made by Hazeltine, > > the 1500 and the Esprit, in good operational and cosmetic condition. > > I used each of these for a long time many years ago and I'd like to > > keep one of each for sentimental reasons. Does anyone on the list > > Your missing the 1000 (early glass tty): > > Also 1400, 1420 1500, 1510, 1520, 1552(vt52 clone). Oh yes, I'm familiar with most of the line...I'm only really interested in keeping the two models that I worked on the most. I had a 1500 on an IMSAI-8080 (with a CCS Z80 CPU board) CP/M machine, and the Esprit was the console on my pdp11/34a running RSTS/E. If I hadn't paid more attention to those machines than my high school teachers, I'd surely have been flipping burgers with the rest of my high school friends. And now, 13 years after graduation, some of them are actually *managers* at McD's! WOW! ;) -Dave McGuire From wrking at tsoft.com Fri Mar 24 12:16:26 2000 From: wrking at tsoft.com (William King) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: 11/34 programmers panel available Message-ID: <000501bf95bd$118d6560$c601a8c0@dadaboom.com> A couple of months ago someone posted a message to this list saying that they were looking for an 11/34 programmers panel. I have one available, please contact me. Bill King From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Fri Mar 24 13:08:40 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: 11/34 programmers panel available In-Reply-To: <000501bf95bd$118d6560$c601a8c0@dadaboom.com> Message-ID: <001101bf95c4$5e6d6720$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> I'll take it if No-One else will (c'mon people). I'm also loking for this is if anyone has it: Pinouts for 11/34 Console (IDC?) Headers. There are a quite a few of those connections to try to reverse engineer. John A. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of William King Sent: Friday, March 24, 2000 1:16 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: 11/34 programmers panel available A couple of months ago someone posted a message to this list saying that they were looking for an 11/34 programmers panel. I have one available, please contact me. Bill King From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Fri Mar 24 21:24:36 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN Message-ID: <20000324194350.419E837AAD@rhea.worldonline.nl> The program was distributed by the author (Sytze Zijlstra) at the PDP11 Sig Decus Holland. It is very easy to use and works well. Wim Hofman ---------- > From: healyzh@aracnet.com > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN > Date: Friday, March 24, 2000 8:27 AM > > > I boot a XXDP+ disk image from an emulated TU-58 on a PC running the > > emulator program from Sytze Zijlstra This emulator is also very useful to > > transport data between PC and PDP-11. > > > > Wim Hofman > > What emulator program? I don't believe I've heard of this one. > > Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 24 12:31:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine In-Reply-To: <200003240251.VAA13988@lexington.ioa.net> from "Technoid@cheta.net" at Mar 23, 0 09:51:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 930 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000324/df06fa0d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 24 12:36:08 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN In-Reply-To: <200003240448.XAA11854@lexington.ioa.net> from "Technoid@cheta.net" at Mar 23, 0 11:43:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 700 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000324/aaf0c576/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 24 12:42:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: teletype wanted..... In-Reply-To: <20000324135126.12D253795F@rhea.worldonline.nl> from "W.B." at Mar 24, 0 01:31:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 311 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000324/8e06d4d3/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 24 13:58:43 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: looking for Hazeltine terminals References: <14555.1027.140770.881751@phaduka.neurotica.com> <14555.43992.428347.711408@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <000701bf95cb$5c176500$5e483cd1@winbook> I've got one of the original ESPRIT terminals, purchased in '80. I'd be perfectly happy to continue using it, though. It shows some wear and tear but no burns and no missing keys. It's the GREEN phosphor model, by the way, as that was the only one available when they first came out. They were, IIRC, the first dumb terminal to drop below $999 on the retail (MSRP) market. I think mine cost $795 and was delivered within a month or two of their release. It still has the FIRST firmware release in it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave McGuire To: Sent: Friday, March 24, 2000 10:54 AM Subject: Re: looking for Hazeltine terminals > On March 24, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > I'm looking to acquire two models of terminals made by Hazeltine, > > > the 1500 and the Esprit, in good operational and cosmetic condition. > > > I used each of these for a long time many years ago and I'd like to > > > keep one of each for sentimental reasons. Does anyone on the list > > > > Your missing the 1000 (early glass tty): > > > > Also 1400, 1420 1500, 1510, 1520, 1552(vt52 clone). > > Oh yes, I'm familiar with most of the line...I'm only really > interested in keeping the two models that I worked on the most. > > I had a 1500 on an IMSAI-8080 (with a CCS Z80 CPU board) CP/M machine, > and the Esprit was the console on my pdp11/34a running RSTS/E. If I > hadn't paid more attention to those machines than my high school > teachers, I'd surely have been flipping burgers with the rest of my > high school friends. And now, 13 years after graduation, some of them > are actually *managers* at McD's! WOW! ;) > > -Dave McGuire From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 24 14:21:09 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN In-Reply-To: <20000324194350.419E837AAD@rhea.worldonline.nl> from "W.B.(Wim) Hofman" at Mar 24, 2000 07:24:36 PM Message-ID: <200003242021.MAA08571@shell1.aracnet.com> I just realized something. Is this a PDP-11 emulator, or are you using a PC to emulate a TU58 drive? I just realized you're probably talking about a TU58 emulator. Zane > The program was distributed by the author (Sytze Zijlstra) at the PDP11 Sig > Decus Holland. It is very easy to use and works well. > > Wim Hofman > > ---------- > > From: healyzh@aracnet.com > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN > > Date: Friday, March 24, 2000 8:27 AM > > > > > I boot a XXDP+ disk image from an emulated TU-58 on a PC running the > > > emulator program from Sytze Zijlstra This emulator is also very useful > to > > > transport data between PC and PDP-11. > > > > > > Wim Hofman > > > > What emulator program? I don't believe I've heard of this one. > > > > Zane > From mbg at world.std.com Fri Mar 24 14:25:31 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine Message-ID: <200003242025.PAA12721@world.std.com> >than the physical. RT-11 doesn't, it does swap jobs to a disk (or VM:). It only swaps to SY... if you're booted from the virtual disk (VM), then that is where it swaps... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Mar 24 14:43:47 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: iOpener Message-ID: <200003242043.PAA22852@dbit.dbit.com> OK, I got a 6.4 GB laptop drive hooked up and right now the iOpener is running DOS/BATCH V10-01A on an emulated PDP-11/40+RK05 system. I love it!!! It's going to take some real butchery to get the case closed, but I guess that's to be expected. The low-profile 3M connector barely fit under the CPU heat sink w/o needing it to be clearanced, that was nice. BTW the CPU seems to be 200 MHz, not 180 MHz. But it still gets only about 80 BogoMIPS, pretty slow. John Wilson D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 24 15:07:06 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <200003242043.PAA22852@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Mar 24, 2000 03:43:47 PM Message-ID: <200003242107.NAA12670@shell1.aracnet.com> > OK, I got a 6.4 GB laptop drive hooked up and right now the iOpener is running > DOS/BATCH V10-01A on an emulated PDP-11/40+RK05 system. I love it!!! Argghhhh! The indignity of it all! I still haven't heard from CC about the one I have on order. I just hope when I get it, it isn't one of the new "Hacker Proof" ones they've supposidly started manufacturing as of this last Monday :^( Zane From technoid at cheta.net Fri Mar 24 15:13:28 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: Computer Parts Barn contact info In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200003242115.QAA24246@lexington.ioa.net> He has a lot of everything under the sun. Quite a few micros and peripherals -PC's and Mac hardware in particular plus tons and tons of mini and mainframe stuff. Whatever it is you need, if he doesn't have it on hand he has contacts who probably do. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From technoid at cheta.net Fri Mar 24 15:15:35 2000 From: technoid at cheta.net (technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200003242118.QAA25093@lexington.ioa.net> In , on 03/24/00 at 04:15 PM, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: >> >> After putting the skins back on the machine it is giving me a ERROR 13 - >> DU0 not ready error. >> >> DAMN! >Ouch, indeed :-( >But are you _sure_ the drive is damaged? Most of the time something like >this is caused by : Not really. It sounds just fine. >Knocking a DIP switch (or one of those frontpanel drive control switches >on Qbus boxes) when refitting the case >Knocking a cable out of place >Traping (and damaging or shorting) a cable >Shorting the logic board on the drive to the case (I've had this one once > -- an RD53 would work upside-down on the bench but wouldn't work in the >machine. Turned out it was shorting to the mounting skid when it was the >right way up). This last thing is for sure not the case but the others are possible and when I get home I intend to hit each of them in turn. I hope it is a setting and not something worse. The thing is that I had the thing working, replaced the two metal hatches and slid it back into the plastic outer case. No boards or cables were involved so I have to think it is probably something worse than a setting or loose cable. All very good advice though. Thanks all. >I'd look for simple problems first... >-tony -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From mbg at world.std.com Fri Mar 24 15:55:25 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: iOpener Message-ID: <200003242155.QAA06831@world.std.com> >OK, I got a 6.4 GB laptop drive hooked up and right now the iOpener is >running DOS/BATCH V10-01A on an emulated PDP-11/40+RK05 system. I love >it!!! >It's going to take some real butchery to get the case closed, but I guess >that's to be expected. The low-profile 3M connector barely fit under the >CPU heat sink w/o needing it to be clearanced, that was nice. >BTW the CPU seems to be 200 MHz, not 180 MHz. But it still gets only >about 80 BogoMIPS, pretty slow. I heard last night that Netpliance is making modifications so that people can no longer do this... they are apparently losing a LOT of money selling the machines, having expected to recoup it in the service charges... Can someone confirm this... and maybe confirm the change that they have done (which I understand is simply removal of the cable connector for the drive). Oh, and supposedly back-ordered units will have the mod... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 24 16:04:16 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: Mac Disk Drive References: <200003242118.QAA25093@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <001601bf95dc$e67da180$45483cd1@winbook> I've got this MAC 80MB SCSI disk drive which seems to work quite well. What I wanted when I got the thing, was the box it lives in. On close examination, I can't find the way to open the thing. The thing is of little use so long as it is not useable as a SCSI box. It's the right size, etc, but I want to put something useful in it. Does anybody know how it opens up? Dick From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 24 16:50:43 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <200003242155.QAA06831@world.std.com> from "Megan" at Mar 24, 2000 04:55:25 PM Message-ID: <200003242250.OAA22330@shell1.aracnet.com> > I heard last night that Netpliance is making modifications so that people > can no longer do this... they are apparently losing a LOT of money selling > the machines, having expected to recoup it in the service charges... > > Can someone confirm this... and maybe confirm the change that they > have done (which I understand is simply removal of the cable connector > for the drive). > > Oh, and supposedly back-ordered units will have the mod... Well, the word from Netpliance is that they've locked out the ability to modify them. It looks like this is at least in part in the form of the following blurb, "Modification of the i-opener in any way is in violation of our terms and conditions". To which my answer is, sorry I don't buy that. No one knows for sure *what* the modification is, as no one has gotten one of the modified machines. My guess is they made one of two changes, either the OS is better locked down, they removed the Hard Drive connector, or both. Of course it's also been theorized they did something nasty to the BIOS, that seems unlikely to me, but unfortunatly is possible. Zane From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Mar 24 16:56:11 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: Mac Disk Drive Message-ID: <22.38ccae9.260d4c8b@aol.com> In a message dated 3/24/00 5:11:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, edick@idcomm.com writes: > I've got this MAC 80MB SCSI disk drive which seems to work quite well. What > I wanted when I got the thing, was the box it lives in. On close > examination, I can't find the way to open the thing. The thing is of little > use so long as it is not useable as a SCSI box. It's the right size, etc, > but I want to put something useful in it. > > Does anybody know how it opens up? you didnt give enough detail to say whether its an apple brand external scsi drive which fits perfectly under a plus or se. if it is, there are tiny slots in the sides that you have to push a screwdriver into to release some tabs. very tedious, but no easy way to do it. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm --You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think-- From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Mar 24 17:10:44 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <200003242155.QAA06831@world.std.com>; from mbg@world.std.com on Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 04:55:25PM -0500 References: <200003242155.QAA06831@world.std.com> Message-ID: <20000324181044.A23272@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 04:55:25PM -0500, Megan wrote: > I heard last night that Netpliance is making modifications so that people > can no longer do this... they are apparently losing a LOT of money selling > the machines, having expected to recoup it in the service charges... There's some mention of this on www.i-opener-linux.net, they seem to think it's an empty threat, since Netpliance has *also* set up a place-holder "developer's corner" page (at http://www.netpliance.com/devcorner) where they say how tickled they are by the whole open-source concept and they want to sell machines to hackers. John Wilson D Bit From owad at applefritter.com Fri Mar 24 17:03:31 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: Mac Disk Drive Message-ID: <200003242306.PAA12990@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >I've got this MAC 80MB SCSI disk drive which seems to work quite well. What >I wanted when I got the thing, was the box it lives in. On close >examination, I can't find the way to open the thing. The thing is of little >use so long as it is not useable as a SCSI box. It's the right size, etc, >but I want to put something useful in it. > >Does anybody know how it opens up? I think there are tabs in some of the vent holes on the side. (at least, I seem to recall that's how their tape drive was. Sneaky. Tom ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Mar 24 15:57:32 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (john b) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: PDP-1 and PDP-4 architecture???? Message-ID: <001401bf95db$f4dc06a0$fd62fea9@johnb> I am looking here for info about the differences between the PDP-1 and PDP-4 architecture. Can PDP-1 software run on a PDP-4? john From whdawson at mlynk.com Fri Mar 24 17:24:16 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <20000324181044.A23272@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <000b01bf95e8$1281a1e0$85e3dfd0@cobweb.net> I think that for every one iOpener sold to a hacker, at least 100 are sold to the general public for its intended use. Look at all the free publicity they are getting out of this. How many more are they going to sell because their product is now mentioned all over the media? I feel any "loss" suffered because a hacker buys one will be more than compensated for in increased sales. Just my $.02 worth. Bill whdawson@mlynk.com -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Wilson -> Sent: Friday, March 24, 2000 6:11 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: iOpener -> -> -> On Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 04:55:25PM -0500, Megan wrote: -> > I heard last night that Netpliance is making modifications so -> that people -> > can no longer do this... they are apparently losing a LOT of -> money selling -> > the machines, having expected to recoup it in the service charges... -> -> There's some mention of this on www.i-opener-linux.net, they -> seem to think -> it's an empty threat, since Netpliance has *also* set up a place-holder -> "developer's corner" page (at http://www.netpliance.com/devcorner) where -> they say how tickled they are by the whole open-source concept -> and they want -> to sell machines to hackers. -> -> John Wilson -> D Bit -> From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Fri Mar 24 14:13:28 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: Resetting C= machines with non-standard implements (was Re: Are you sure the 6550 is dead?) References: Message-ID: <000001bf95e9$c78a2020$0f9793c3@proteus> Hi, > Yes, but I would have thought that the main problem is that >you're effectively shorting an output.... Actually, I hadn't thought of that. It's a good point. > I am suprised it was the processor that failed, though. AFAIK, >the processor in a C64 never outputs anything to the reset line. Well, I didn't actually do the fault finding on these machines myself. But the chap who did repair them said he'd had to replace the 6510s. I assume that spikes from the unbuffered switches had fried the 6510s reset circuitry...? > There's a fairly easy modification IIRC that adds a reset switch >in parallel with a capacitor in the reset circuit.... As you say, that's the best way of doing it. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Fri Mar 24 16:53:22 2000 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: PDP-1 and PDP-4 architecture???? Message-ID: <01JNF1Y0H4QQAZT4BQ@cc.usu.edu> >I am looking here for info about the differences between the PDP-1 and PDP-4 >architecture. Bell & Newell's out of print book about computer architecture runs through both architectures (as well as many others). Unfortunately, I don't have a copy so I can't be more specific. I can't even find the photocopies I made of this and other information (I have a couple of large three-ring binders chock full o' architecture descriptions ranging from EDSAC to modern stuff; but my office has moved a couple of times since then, so I've misplaced them). > Can PDP-1 software run on a PDP-4? No. The PDP-4 was designed to be able to use PDP-1 memory and I/O devices (IIRC), but the instruction set is different. The instruction set of the PDP-4 is essentially that used by the PDP-7, PDP-9, and PDP-15; the Bell&Newell book (IIR the source C) claimed the primary difference between the PDP-4 and the PDP-7 was that the PDP-7 used ASCII I/O devices while the PDP-4 used a six bit code. The true mystery is, of course, the PDP-3. It was allegedly a 36-bit version of the PDP-1. I've seen one source that had a drawing of the word format for the PDP-3, but no other information (the source was an "encyclopedia of computers" circa 1960 that was composed of two-page descriptions of each machine which appeared to be taken from the marketing literature for the machine. The PDP-3 was listed, a word format was given, and a couple of trivial benchmarkish statistics; time to perform an add, IIRC. I have a copy of the blurb in the aforementioned three-ring binders which I can't find). Rumor has it that a DEC customer built a PDP-3, but DEC never did. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Sat Mar 25 01:57:25 2000 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN Message-ID: <20000325002016.866D137D40@pandora.worldonline.nl> TU58 emulator on a PC, connected to a serial line of a real PDP11 Wim Hofman ---------- > From: healyzh@aracnet.com > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN > Date: Friday, March 24, 2000 12:21 PM > > I just realized something. Is this a PDP-11 emulator, or are you using a PC > to emulate a TU58 drive? I just realized you're probably talking about a > TU58 emulator. > > Zane > > > > The program was distributed by the author (Sytze Zijlstra) at the PDP11 Sig > > Decus Holland. It is very easy to use and works well. > > > > Wim Hofman > > > > ---------- > > > From: healyzh@aracnet.com > > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > Subject: Re: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN > > > Date: Friday, March 24, 2000 8:27 AM > > > > > > > I boot a XXDP+ disk image from an emulated TU-58 on a PC running the > > > > emulator program from Sytze Zijlstra This emulator is also very useful > > to > > > > transport data between PC and PDP-11. > > > > > > > > Wim Hofman > > > > > > What emulator program? I don't believe I've heard of this one. > > > > > > Zane > > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Mar 24 18:20:51 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: Mac Disk Drive In-Reply-To: <001601bf95dc$e67da180$45483cd1@winbook> References: <200003242118.QAA25093@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: >I've got this MAC 80MB SCSI disk drive which seems to work quite well. What >I wanted when I got the thing, was the box it lives in. On close >examination, I can't find the way to open the thing. The thing is of little >use so long as it is not useable as a SCSI box. It's the right size, etc, >but I want to put something useful in it. > >Does anybody know how it opens up? You need to tell us who makes the enclosure, etc. Some are clearly not designed for the end user to be able to open, typically the real small enclosures. The larger boxes almost always are just some screws, sometimes under labels. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 24 18:32:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: iOpener Message-ID: <200003250032.TAA16766@world.std.com> <>BTW the CPU seems to be 200 MHz, not 180 MHz. But it still gets only <>about 80 BogoMIPS, pretty slow. The winchip is about slow as pents come. Pentium with MMX at 180 is much better. Message-ID: I've already asked John Wilson this, but has anyone compiled the one available on dBit's ftp site for Linux? Or know of another one for Linux/Windows that's available online? I'd like to try it out... Aaron On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, W.B.(Wim) Hofman wrote: > TU58 emulator on a PC, connected to a serial line of a real PDP11 > > Wim Hofman > > ---------- > > From: healyzh@aracnet.com > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN > > Date: Friday, March 24, 2000 12:21 PM > > > > I just realized something. Is this a PDP-11 emulator, or are you using a > PC > > to emulate a TU58 drive? I just realized you're probably talking about a > > TU58 emulator. > > > > Zane > > > > > > > The program was distributed by the author (Sytze Zijlstra) at the PDP11 > Sig > > > Decus Holland. It is very easy to use and works well. > > > > > > Wim Hofman > > > > > > ---------- > > > > From: healyzh@aracnet.com > > > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > > Subject: Re: PDP-11/23 deskside machine -DAMN > > > > Date: Friday, March 24, 2000 8:27 AM > > > > > > > > > I boot a XXDP+ disk image from an emulated TU-58 on a PC running > the > > > > > emulator program from Sytze Zijlstra This emulator is also very > useful > > > to > > > > > transport data between PC and PDP-11. > > > > > > > > > > Wim Hofman > > > > > > > > What emulator program? I don't believe I've heard of this one. > > > > > > > > Zane > > > > > > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Mar 24 19:35:06 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <200003250032.TAA16766@world.std.com>; from allisonp@world.std.com on Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 07:32:32PM -0500 References: <200003250032.TAA16766@world.std.com> Message-ID: <20000324203506.A23874@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 07:32:32PM -0500, Allison J Parent wrote: > Removing(not putting it in really) the connector is about all they could > do with a production stream like that otherwise the cost to manufacture > and all goes out the window. To me that does not constitute hacker > proofing as putting one in is trivial and I might get to put in in the > right side of the board even. Totally. I doubt they'll evey remove the connector though. At least in low qtys it's not cheap (almost $5 from Digikey) so they aren't just putting it there by accident, I think it's how they load the flash drive in the first place. And they're always going to need a way to do that, and a socket for the amazingly tiny SMT flash ROM itself would be pretty expensive... John Wilson D Bit From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Mar 24 20:08:22 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: teletype wanted..... In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: teletype wanted....." (Mar 24, 18:42) References: Message-ID: <10003250208.ZM14297@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 24, 18:42, Tony Duell wrote: > > White (A) output to printer > > Red (B) input for PX1000 and power > > Screen (C) mass > ^^^^ > Most likely to be 'ground', based on the fact that it's the screen, and > that I've seen words like 'Masse', 'Massa', etc in foreign manuals for > the ground/0V connection. Yes, it does mean "ground". I translated it with a little help from a colleague (thanks, Karsten!) but Wim beat me to it... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Fri Mar 24 20:33:12 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: Altos machines Message-ID: <000901bf9603$61af2600$92e893c3@proteus> Does anyone have any pointers to sites on the web which cover Altos machines? I've done a search on Yahoo and a couple of other places and turned up nothing. I'm particularly interested in information on the Unix systems they were making around 1990 - we had one at work, an i386 in a tower case. Not PC compatible IIRC, possibly called an "Altos III" or something similar. While I'm on the subject, would anyone in the UK have one of these they want rid of? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Fri Mar 24 18:40:28 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: New drives in the M3100/M76 References: <200003212301.e2LN1Bj20651@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <000801bf9603$60ed5ca0$92e893c3@proteus> Hi, >> I'd love to know why this is. > > 1. This is early first MR drives and will not work (marble >dropping noise) if the too long screws grounds out the disc >pack casing. Yes, I downloaded IBMs technical manual on these drives - it goes to great pains to warn you against grounding the drive chamber to the chassis with long screws.... > 2. They run hot, cool them. They were getting hot, but not THAT hot. Then again the drive bays they were sat in weren't exactly in the best position to get good cooling. > Needs to use LLF on any peecee controller or use a desktop or >tower IBM ps/2 to convert them to standard 512 per sector type. >I have done that once in a while successfully. Yep, they format fine on this AdvanSys SCSI controller I use in my PC (no IDE (spit) devices in sight). Just wish they'd keep working.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 24 21:10:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: TU58 Peripheral Emulation Message-ID: <200003250310.WAA25722@world.std.com> Message-ID: <38DC329A.96379606@heathers.stdio.com> Its possible that they could goo the area with epoxy which will make it very difficult but not impossible to add the drive. I have seen other manu's do this as a quick fix until a more permanant solution can be engineered.(remember Videocipher?) I still have one ordered hoping the mod will still be possible. Brian. Megan wrote: > >OK, I got a 6.4 GB laptop drive hooked up and right now the iOpener is > >running DOS/BATCH V10-01A on an emulated PDP-11/40+RK05 system. I love > >it!!! > > >It's going to take some real butchery to get the case closed, but I guess > >that's to be expected. The low-profile 3M connector barely fit under the > >CPU heat sink w/o needing it to be clearanced, that was nice. > > >BTW the CPU seems to be 200 MHz, not 180 MHz. But it still gets only > >about 80 BogoMIPS, pretty slow. > > I heard last night that Netpliance is making modifications so that people > can no longer do this... they are apparently losing a LOT of money selling > the machines, having expected to recoup it in the service charges... > > Can someone confirm this... and maybe confirm the change that they > have done (which I understand is simply removal of the cable connector > for the drive). > > Oh, and supposedly back-ordered units will have the mod... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | > | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | > | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | > | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From Technoid at cheta.net Fri Mar 24 21:15:29 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:22 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 machine boots fine In-Reply-To: <38DB609A.551D4FF7@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: <200003250316.WAA18156@lexington.ioa.net> I nearly said nothing but last night I was working late on this machine and DID in fact diagnose and reassemble the machine in working order. When I put the skins back on it I must have accidentally toggled the Fixed Disk Ready button on the faceplate. That is all the failure was and when I noticed it after work this evening I could have kicked myself. Anyway, the machine works. I would like to format some floppies and get a restorable backup of the drive. The two floppies respond to DIR/Bad, and Init/Bad as devices DU1 and DU2:. But I get 'bad sector in system area' when I try to init. How do I low-level floppies? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Mar 24 21:57:54 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 machine boots fine Message-ID: <000324225754.22400504@trailing-edge.com> >Anyway, the machine works. I would like to format some floppies and get a >restorable backup of the drive. The two floppies respond to DIR/Bad, and >Init/Bad as devices DU1 and DU2:. But I get 'bad sector in system area' >when I try to init. How do I low-level floppies? Are your floppy drives RX33's or RX50's? A RX50 is a two-drive-in-one unit, grey faceplate, two orange marks showing you how to insert the bottom floppy in upside down. You can't format a RX50 on your RQDX controller, you have to do it elsewhere. PUTR is a common choice on a PC, get it at ftp.dbit.com. A RX33 is a TEAC 5.25" HD disk drive. Put a 1.2Mbyte disk in, tell it "FORMAT DU1:", and you'll have it formatted as a RX33. A RX33 can also read/write RX50's, but it can't format them on a DEC RQDX controller. Note that there are third-party Q-bus controllers that let you format RX50's, and if you're running RT-11 5.7 you can use FORMAT/SINGLE on these controllers to make RX50's. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 25 00:15:15 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Mac Disk Drive References: <200003242118.QAA25093@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <000b01bf9621$7da95600$7e483cd1@winbook> It's an APPLE unit. They did this sort of thing all the time, since they didn't want anyone to know just how overpriced there stuff was. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Friday, March 24, 2000 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Mac Disk Drive > >I've got this MAC 80MB SCSI disk drive which seems to work quite well. What > >I wanted when I got the thing, was the box it lives in. On close > >examination, I can't find the way to open the thing. The thing is of little > >use so long as it is not useable as a SCSI box. It's the right size, etc, > >but I want to put something useful in it. > > > >Does anybody know how it opens up? > > You need to tell us who makes the enclosure, etc. Some are clearly not > designed for the end user to be able to open, typically the real small > enclosures. The larger boxes almost always are just some screws, sometimes > under labels. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 25 00:18:49 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Altos machines References: <000901bf9603$61af2600$92e893c3@proteus> Message-ID: <001101bf9621$fc630c20$7e483cd1@winbook> I have an ALTOS model 586, non-functioning with a DC600 or some similar size tape cartridge drive. Do you knonw anyting about that thing? It appears to be a multiuser/server unit of some sort, as it supports a number of serial ports. I bought this thing about a year ago because one of the folks on this list asked me to He later changed his mind and the thrift store where I got it wouldn't even take it back because it was not PC or MAC gear. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pachla To: Classic Computer Sent: Friday, March 24, 2000 7:33 PM Subject: Altos machines > Does anyone have any pointers to sites on the web which cover Altos > machines? I've done a search on Yahoo and a couple of other places and > turned up nothing. > > I'm particularly interested in information on the Unix systems they were > making around 1990 - we had one at work, an i386 in a tower case. Not PC > compatible IIRC, possibly called an "Altos III" or something similar. > > While I'm on the subject, would anyone in the UK have one of these they want > rid of? > > > TTFN - Pete. > > -- > Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. > Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > > peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk > -- > > From kbd at ndx.net Sat Mar 25 00:32:30 2000 From: kbd at ndx.net (Kirk Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: IBM Corporate Songbook In-Reply-To: <20000322235833.47519.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: I don't know if they still print it, but here's a link with some of my old favs: http://www.users.cloud9.net/~bradmcc/ibmsongbook.html > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David Vohs > Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 3:59 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: IBM Corporate Songbook > > > Does anybody know if IBM still prints up copies of their famous > (infamous?) > corporate songbook? Furthermore, can anybody buy one. That is someting I > want to do: Buy a IBM Corporate Songbook, & go to a *Macintosh > Expo*, & bust > out singing! (I know, I'm sadistic. Thank you. I've worked very hard to > become so!) > ____________________________________________________________ > David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. > > Computer Collection: > > "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. > "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. > "Delorean": TI-99/4A. > "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. > "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. > "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. > ____________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sat Mar 25 06:32:06 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: BA23 Power Supply Message-ID: <000901bf9656$227e0020$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> With all this talk of PDP11/23's I am looking at my BA23 with I think an 11/73 CPU inside it. I haven't powered it up because it is set for 110v and we have 230v here. There's a switch on the back but a big sticker on the PS itself says to refer to the operating manual . . . sort of like there must be other things to do also. Does anyone here know about these things? Thanks, Hans From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sat Mar 25 07:28:14 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: BA23 Power Supply Message-ID: <000801bf965d$f99241a0$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> I forgot to add that the sticker says it is set for 110v and 60hz. We have 50hz. Perhaps it is necessary to change something on that score. -----Original Message----- From: Olminkhof To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, 25 March 2000 21:54 Subject: BA23 Power Supply >With all this talk of PDP11/23's I am looking at my BA23 with I think an >11/73 CPU inside it. > >I haven't powered it up because it is set for 110v and we have 230v here. >There's a switch on the back but a big sticker on the PS itself says to >refer to the operating manual . . . sort of like there must be other things >to do also. > >Does anyone here know about these things? > >Thanks, >Hans > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Mar 25 06:33:44 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Altos machines Message-ID: <000325073344.22400504@trailing-edge.com> >Does anyone have any pointers to sites on the web which cover Altos >machines? I've done a search on Yahoo and a couple of other places and >turned up nothing. Yes, there is a surprising lack of information "on the web" on Altos machines. >I'm particularly interested in information on the Unix systems they were >making around 1990 - we had one at work, an i386 in a tower case. Not PC >compatible IIRC, possibly called an "Altos III" or something similar. If you can wait a day or two, a fellow classiccmper and I are going to be inventorying the Altos machines that we've (temporarily) taken custody of, as well as the documents. All the machines that we have are 19" wide by about 7.5" high tabletop units, often with 8" floppies in the front so they're almost certainly older than your machine, but there may be some documentation (we've several binders full of it) on your machine. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From at258 at osfn.org Sat Mar 25 07:34:33 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Altos machines In-Reply-To: <000325073344.22400504@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: We have an Altos 8600 and what looks like an older 580 or 680 plus a few terminals. We haven't done anything with them yet. the 8600 is rack mounted with an 8 inch drive. The other one seesm to have 5-1/4's if I remember correctly. On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Does anyone have any pointers to sites on the web which cover Altos > >machines? I've done a search on Yahoo and a couple of other places and > >turned up nothing. > > Yes, there is a surprising lack of information "on the web" on Altos > machines. > > >I'm particularly interested in information on the Unix systems they were > >making around 1990 - we had one at work, an i386 in a tower case. Not PC > >compatible IIRC, possibly called an "Altos III" or something similar. > > If you can wait a day or two, a fellow classiccmper and I are going to be > inventorying the Altos machines that we've (temporarily) taken custody > of, as well as the documents. All the machines that we have are > 19" wide by about 7.5" high tabletop units, often with 8" floppies in the > front so they're almost certainly older than your machine, but there may > be some documentation (we've several binders full of it) on your machine. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From Technoid at cheta.net Sat Mar 25 07:40:09 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: BA23 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <000901bf9656$227e0020$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <200003251338.IAA24864@lexington.ioa.net> In <000901bf9656$227e0020$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au>, on 03/25/00 at 08:40 AM, "Olminkhof" said: >With all this talk of PDP11/23's I am looking at my BA23 with I think an >11/73 CPU inside it. >I haven't powered it up because it is set for 110v and we have 230v here. >There's a switch on the back but a big sticker on the PS itself says to >refer to the operating manual . . . sort of like there must be other >things to do also. I would be very surprised if there was anything else to do but to toggle the power supply to 220 volt. The switch will also change for your 50hz cycle. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Mar 25 08:46:48 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: BA23 Power Supply Message-ID: <000325094648.22400544@trailing-edge.com> >>With all this talk of PDP11/23's I am looking at my BA23 with I think an >>11/73 CPU inside it. >>I haven't powered it up because it is set for 110v and we have 230v here. >>There's a switch on the back but a big sticker on the PS itself says to >>refer to the operating manual . . . sort of like there must be other >>things to do also. >I would be very surprised if there was anything else to do but to toggle >the power supply to 220 volt. The switch will also change for your 50hz >cycle. There isn't anything to change inside the power supply for 50Hz vs 60Hz. All your software should be built or set to expect a 50 Hz line clock, too, of course... (unless you like having your clock run at 5/6ths run at actual speed!) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 25 09:09:04 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Altos machines References: Message-ID: <001701bf966c$10bfc1a0$5d483cd1@winbook> Well, this model 586 has 5-1/4" drives in the main unit and the tape drive is in a separate enclosure. These are desktop-style boxes, though I doubt theyd be used on a desktop. The hard drive is a full-height nominally 40MB 5-1/4" drive. I've left this thing alone, though it's a source of Z-80 type system parts. The HDC is a 2900-based number not particularly similar to any other that I can recognize. The tape unit hasn't been opened yet. I may get to that some day, but I see the two boxes as a source of parts and little else. They're pretty heavy, so I don't anticipate shipping them anywhere. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Merle K. Peirce To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 6:34 AM Subject: RE: Altos machines > > We have an Altos 8600 and what looks like an older 580 or 680 plus a few > terminals. We haven't done anything with them yet. the 8600 is rack > mounted with an 8 inch drive. The other one seesm to have 5-1/4's if I > remember correctly. > > On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > > > >Does anyone have any pointers to sites on the web which cover Altos > > >machines? I've done a search on Yahoo and a couple of other places and > > >turned up nothing. > > > > Yes, there is a surprising lack of information "on the web" on Altos > > machines. > > > > >I'm particularly interested in information on the Unix systems they were > > >making around 1990 - we had one at work, an i386 in a tower case. Not PC > > >compatible IIRC, possibly called an "Altos III" or something similar. > > > > If you can wait a day or two, a fellow classiccmper and I are going to be > > inventorying the Altos machines that we've (temporarily) taken custody > > of, as well as the documents. All the machines that we have are > > 19" wide by about 7.5" high tabletop units, often with 8" floppies in the > > front so they're almost certainly older than your machine, but there may > > be some documentation (we've several binders full of it) on your machine. > > > > -- > > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Mar 25 09:35:18 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 machine boots fine References: <200003250316.WAA18156@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <38DCDCB6.748A3028@idirect.com> >Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > I nearly said nothing but last night I was working late on this machine > and DID in fact diagnose and reassemble the machine in working order. > When I put the skins back on it I must have accidentally toggled the Fixed > Disk Ready button on the faceplate. That is all the failure was and when > I noticed it after work this evening I could have kicked myself. Jerome Fine replies: It is probably not the first and will not be the last time. I am always just very thankful it was something that simple. > Anyway, the machine works. I would like to format some floppies and get a > restorable backup of the drive. The two floppies respond to DIR/Bad, and > Init/Bad as devices DU1 and DU2:. But I get 'bad sector in system area' > when I try to init. How do I low-level floppies? I sounds like an RX50 drive for the system you are using. By the time I send this, someone else will also have replied that using PUTR on a PC with a 5 1/4" HD PC floppy can be used to do a low level format on the RX50 media. DO NOT use 5 1/4" HD PC media since the magnetic strength of the media is too high - you may only use the normal DSDD 5 1/4" 360 KByte floppies. While you do end up using 80 tracks, the number of sectors per track is only 10 which is why the DSDD media must be used for an RX50 drive in a DEC system. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 25 10:39:35 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: BA23 Power Supply Message-ID: <200003251639.LAA01269@world.std.com> Yeah, I used to maintain one of these beasts in the mid-80's. It is a single 8086, with either 512 or 900-something k ram, and it runs the Xenix-86 OS. The thing used a couple of Q540 disk drives, and with four users on it, swapped it's brains out like you wouldn't believe. The version of Xenix that was running on it at the time couldn't decide if it was Edition 7 or System III-- fsck said it was a System III fs, the banner on start up mentioned something about Edition 7. Anyways, it's amazing what some careful programming can accomplish with <1MB ram, and an 8Mc 16 bit CPU. They ran a cellular billing office with this thing, and they would load subscriber data onto this thing from 7-track (or was it 8-track ?) tape that they got from the mainframe. I had to reload the Xenix OS once-- the default root password is SOTLA :^). Jeff On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:09:04 -0700 "Richard Erlacher" writes: > Well, this model 586 has 5-1/4" drives in the main unit and the tape > drive > is in a separate enclosure. These are desktop-style boxes, though I > doubt > theyd be used on a desktop. The hard drive is a full-height > nominally 40MB > 5-1/4" drive. I've left this thing alone, though it's a source of > Z-80 type > system parts. The HDC is a 2900-based number not particularly > similar to > any other that I can recognize. The tape unit hasn't been opened > yet. I > may get to that some day, but I see the two boxes as a source of > parts and > little else. They're pretty heavy, so I don't anticipate shipping > them > anywhere. > > Dick ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 25 11:36:32 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Mac Disk Drive In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Mar 24, 0 04:20:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 523 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000325/43288736/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Mar 25 11:55:26 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: FW: First come first served: VAX 11/750 (UK) In-Reply-To: <8bib4t$ve$1@tcnnt0.totalserve.net> References: <8bib4t$ve$1@tcnnt0.totalserve.net> Message-ID: <9avpdsour760dtj430holfitev7eifi2k4@4ax.com> So, would any of our UK members like a VAX 11/750? Possibly one that has a SCSI adapter? If so, please get in touch with the fellow who originated the message shown below. Thanks! Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 12:22:21 -0000, in comp.os.vms you wrote: >>From: "Jonathan Hunter" >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,uk.adverts.computer,misc.forsale.computers.other.misc,misc.forsale.computers.other.systems,vmsnet.misc,comp.os.vms >>Subject: First come first served: VAX 11/750 (UK) >>Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 12:22:21 -0000 >>Organization: Totalserve Internet >>Lines: 60 >>Message-ID: <8bib4t$ve$1@tcnnt0.totalserve.net> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: jmhpc.ninja.org.uk >>X-Trace: tcnnt0.totalserve.net 953987037 1006 195.226.56.170 (25 Mar 2000 12:23:57 GMT) >>X-Complaints-To: abuse@totalserve.net >>NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Mar 2000 12:23:57 GMT >>X-Priority: 3 >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 >>Path: news.uswest.net!news-out.uswest.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!freenix!oleane.net!oleane!news-raspail.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.xtml.co.uk!news.totalserve.net!not-for-mail >>Xref: news-out.uswest.net comp.sys.dec:9583 uk.adverts.computer:75561 misc.forsale.computers.other.misc:8472 misc.forsale.computers.other.systems:3702 vmsnet.misc:227 comp.os.vms:42164 >> >>Hi, >> >>I have a vaguely complete VAX 11/750 system that I would like to get rid of. >>The notes I have made describing the collection are as follows: >> >>Cabinet containing: >>RA80 - hard disk drive >>RA60 - disk drive unit - removeable >>MODEL RA80-CD >> >>DECserver 200/MC >>"Software Product Description" - April 1988, "The >>DECserver 200 Terminal Server is a network terminal >>switch for Enternet Local Area networks." >>Ports - 8 serial ports; Ethernet AUI port. >>Sticker with Ethernet address (08-00-2B-11-xx-xx) >>P/N DSRVB-AB >>C.S. REV B4 ECO C0006 >>MFG. Cloomel >>------------ >>Model: DSRVB-A >> >>RM80. Built differently to rest, i.e. no seperable sides >>etc. >>Unit at top of cabinet; start/stop switches etc. >>Controller unit underneath, slides out. Two massbus >>sockets - one unconnected; presumably for cable. Other >>has an empty connector in it. Rack full of cards, and >>ribbon cable going to drive unit above. >>MODEL RM80-AD >> >>Tape drive >>MODEL TU81-CA >> >>132-column Line Printer >>MODEL: LP25 >>VARIATION: BA >> >>VAX itself (11/750) >>MODEL SV-BXWAA-AD >> >>Plus miscellanous tapes etc. >> >>There is also what appears to be a SCSI controller for the VAX, made by >>SUMMUS Computer Systems. I understand that this is quite a rare item and >>might be worth something. >> >>If anybody has a need for any of the above, I'm based in Manchester and you >>are welcome to come and collect. >> >>If you don't want to make an offer for any of this, then I will allocate it >>on a "first come, first served" basis. However if you do email me with an >>offer (monetary, or offers of exchange for other interesting computer goods) >>then these offers will take precedence over people wanting bits for free. >> >>Let me know if any of this is of interest. >> >>Jonathan >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 25 11:49:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: BA23 Power Supply In-Reply-To: <000801bf965d$f99241a0$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> from "Olminkhof" at Mar 25, 0 11:28:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2235 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000325/55c441ae/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Sat Mar 25 12:42:53 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: BA23 Power Supply Message-ID: <200003251842.NAA22929@world.std.com> >One other thing remains. Most PDP11s have what's called a 'line time >clock' -- basically an interrupt every mains cycle. This is counted by >the real time clock program in most OSes, and used to keep real time, >etc. Of course if you move a machine from 60Hz to 50Hz power or vice >versa, the real time clock will run slow/fast until you re-SYSGEN the OS >for the appropriate frequency. This is not a big problem -- things still >work -- though. Actually, the KDJ11-B based machines allowed any of the following settings for the LTC interrupt rate: 1) Line time clock (tied to power supply) 2) 50 Hz 3) 60 Hz 4) 800 Hz Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Mar 25 13:28:26 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: BA23 Power Supply Message-ID: <000325142826.22400544@trailing-edge.com> >One other thing remains. Most PDP11s have what's called a 'line time >clock' -- basically an interrupt every mains cycle. This is counted by >the real time clock program in most OSes, and used to keep real time, >etc. Of course if you move a machine from 60Hz to 50Hz power or vice >versa, the real time clock will run slow/fast until you re-SYSGEN the OS >for the appropriate frequency. On many of the operating systems, you don't have to do a SYSGEN - just tweak a number in the configuration word and viola, it's now a 50Hz machine. For an RT-11 machine, in particular, you can tweak this on a running system if you wish: .type 50hz.mac .MCALL .PVAL, .EXIT ; RMON Fixed offsets CONFIG = 300 ;Configuration word 1 CLK50$ = 000040 ;50-cycle system clock HZ50: .PVAL #AREA,#CONFIG,#CLK50$,BIS ;Get configuration word .EXIT AREA: .BLKW 4 .END HZ50 .macro 50hz .link 50hz .show conf RT-11FB V05.07 Booted from DU1:RT11FB USR is set SWAP EXIT is set SWAP KMON is set NOIND MODE is set NOSJ TT is set NOQUIET ERROR is set ERROR SL is set OFF EDIT is set KED FORTRAN is set FORTRA KMON nesting depth is 3 CLI is set DCL, CCL, UCL, NO UCF PDP 11/84 Processor 2048KB of memory Floating Point Microcode Extended Instruction Set (EIS) Memory Management Unit ECC Memory Cache Memory PMI Memory 60 Hertz System Clock FPU support .run 50hz .show conf RT-11FB V05.07 Booted from DU1:RT11FB USR is set SWAP EXIT is set SWAP KMON is set NOIND MODE is set NOSJ TT is set NOQUIET ERROR is set ERROR SL is set OFF EDIT is set KED FORTRAN is set FORTRA KMON nesting depth is 3 CLI is set DCL, CCL, UCL, NO UCF PDP 11/84 Processor 2048KB of memory Floating Point Microcode Extended Instruction Set (EIS) Memory Management Unit ECC Memory Cache Memory PMI Memory 50 Hertz System Clock FPU support -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 25 14:09:21 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: BA23 Power Supply Message-ID: <200003252009.PAA27036@world.std.com> Does anyone know of any parallel port hard drives that will work with with my Sharp PC-7000? I only ask because, for some odd reason, whenever I copy a DOS program to a floppy (360K) in Windows, it does not want to work on the Sharp, but works flawlessly on the Windows box (in a DOS window, of course!). What could be happening? Is there something obvious that I'm not doing right? ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From elmo at mminternet.com Sat Mar 25 15:20:18 2000 From: elmo at mminternet.com (Eliot Moore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Free Oracle/Sun Docs; PETs for Trade Message-ID: <38DD2D91.C9AF78AE@mminternet.com> I have about 120 pounds of Solaris 2.3/4/5 and Oracle 7.0/1/2 documentation for whoever wants to pick it up in Santa Monica. Not quite classic, I know, but otherwise, they're going in the recycle bin, with my eight new unsolicited copies of the PacBell Yellow pages. I have left several Commodore PET 8032's for trade for those interested. Regards, Eliot . From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 25 15:22:45 2000 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: FW: First come first served: VAX 11/750 (UK) In-Reply-To: <9avpdsour760dtj430holfitev7eifi2k4@4ax.com> References: <8bib4t$ve$1@tcnnt0.totalserve.net> <9avpdsour760dtj430holfitev7eifi2k4@4ax.com> Message-ID: <7uPHJEAl4S34EwFw@joules0.demon.co.uk> In article <9avpdsour760dtj430holfitev7eifi2k4@4ax.com>, Bruce Lane writes > So, would any of our UK members like a VAX 11/750? Possibly one that >has a SCSI adapter? > I gather that these are quite big, how does it compare for size with my MicroVAX II with 5 RA81 drives (ie 2 19" rack units)? I would like to ask for it but if it is a roomful then SWMBO might throw me _and_ the VAX out of the house ;-) -- Regards Pete From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 25 15:56:20 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: FW: First come first served: VAX 11/750 (UK) Message-ID: <200003252156.QAA08910@world.std.com> <> So, would any of our UK members like a VAX 11/750? Possibly one tha <>has a SCSI adapter? <> < from "Peter Joules" at Mar 25, 2000 09:22:45 PM Message-ID: <200003252203.PAA13642@calico.litterbox.com> > > In article <9avpdsour760dtj430holfitev7eifi2k4@4ax.com>, Bruce Lane > writes > > So, would any of our UK members like a VAX 11/750? Possibly one that > >has a SCSI adapter? > > > > I gather that these are quite big, how does it compare for size with my > MicroVAX II with 5 RA81 drives (ie 2 19" rack units)? > > I would like to ask for it but if it is a roomful then SWMBO might throw > me _and_ the VAX out of the house ;-) It's the size of several 4 drawer file cabinets, more or less. We had one at my undergraduate school - I learned most of my CS on it. Not bad, having a .9 VUP machine serving ~ 75 terminals and 30-40 connected users at a time. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Sat Mar 25 16:14:09 2000 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: FW: First come first served: VAX 11/750 (UK) In-Reply-To: <200003252156.QAA08910@world.std.com> References: <200003252156.QAA08910@world.std.com> Message-ID: In article <200003252156.QAA08910@world.std.com>, Allison J Parent writes > >the basic 750 box is a 40" (memory test) wide by 40" high rack. So it's >smaller than your dual rack microvax. It can be powered off 110V at >reasonable current so in the 230v world it's not a huge problem there. That's what I like to hear, I think I can get away with that :). I have e-mailed the chap who advertised it and told him what I have on offer for exchange so I will just have to wait and see now. -- Regards Pete From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Mar 25 17:19:03 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: <20000325201444.26902.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >Does anyone know of any parallel port hard drives that will work with with >my Sharp PC-7000? I only ask because, for some odd reason, whenever I copy a >DOS program to a floppy (360K) in Windows, it does not want to work on the >Sharp, but works flawlessly on the Windows box (in a DOS window, of >course!). What could be happening? Is there something obvious that I'm not >doing right? What I bought was an Adaptec Parallel to SCSI adapter, slow but works pretty well. From Technoid at cheta.net Sat Mar 25 18:38:38 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Drives on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200003260050.TAA14753@lexington.ioa.net> I have a full backup of the drive via COPY. I would like to graft a different hard disk onto this machine. I have available in ST506-type is a fujitsu 40mb and a seagate st4096. How do connect the second drive? There are connections for a second drive but both are on the machine and not with the 34 pin connector daisy-chained to the first drive as is normal. Do I terminate each drive in this "Y" configuration? What drive number should it be? Drive 4 I suspect as the first and only hard disk is set at 3 and is terminated. How would I configure drive geometry to match the drive I am installing? The object of installing a second hard disk is to create a bootable clone of the first one. A bump in disk space is allways cool but I want a bootable clone as a backup at least. Does the ST506-type controller have enough Shugart SA400 about it that it is running the floppies as drive id's 1 and 2? It would explain a lot. How difficult is it to substitute a standard double-sided floppy mech for the wierd but nifty-looking floppy drives that are in it now? For those of you still wondering, it has an RX50-AA double-drive unit that cannot be formatted by the computer but can be read. Will I be able to format media on the machine if I DO replace the drives? Can I substitute a standared 40trk X DS X DD mechanism or an 1.2mb 5.25" mech to accomplish this? The connections look standard though I have not opened the base enclosure for the floppy mechanism for a look at it's cabling yet. Thanks all -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From nerdware at laidbak.com Sat Mar 25 19:03:05 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: Need IBM Penpoint install disks for ThinkPad 730t Message-ID: <200003260103.TAA03404@garcon.laidbak.com> Yes, I know it's not that old, but if anyone would have a copy of an oddball OS, it'd be you guys..... I have a couple of 730t's that work, complete with the cute little PCMCIA hard drives, and the suitcase docking station with the Kodak Diconix printer. Only problem is, the OS is password locked and there seems to be no way around it. A friend has one drive with a clean, unlocked OS, but there is something about the little drives that Ghost just doesn't like. The tech at IBM was clueless, so I need the original install disks so I can wipe my machine back into usefulness. Anyone able to help? Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 25 19:33:42 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Drives on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200003260050.TAA14753@lexington.ioa.net> References: Message-ID: >I have a full backup of the drive via COPY. I would like to graft a >different hard disk onto this machine. Did you simply do a COPY? Or a COPY/SYS? >I have available in ST506-type is a fujitsu 40mb and a seagate st4096. >How do connect the second drive? There are connections for a second Since you've got a RD52, which is a good drive your best bet is to try and find a 3rd party ESDI controller if you really want to add different Hard Drives. I'm not even sure that you can munge a non-DEC MFM disk into working with what you've got. Besides I try to avoid MFM HD's if at all possible. >How difficult is it to substitute a standard double-sided floppy mech for >the wierd but nifty-looking floppy drives that are in it now? For those >of you still wondering, it has an RX50-AA double-drive unit that cannot be >formatted by the computer but can be read. As I recall, you've got either a RQDX1 or RQDX2 drive controller, so you're pretty much out of luck there. With the correct revision of RQDX3 it is possible to convert certain Teac 1.2MB Floppy drives into RX33's. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 25 19:43:22 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? References: <20000325201444.26902.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <000d01bf96c4$ac27a920$3d483cd1@winbook> Perhaps you could consider one of those parallel port adapters to SCSI. I've got a couple of them and have never had cause to cuss them. Consider the Belkin version before you consider the Adaptec. I've had much better performance with the BELKIN. They are both outrageously overpriced, but you know how it is. . . Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: David Vohs To: Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 1:14 PM Subject: Parallel port hard drives? > Does anyone know of any parallel port hard drives that will work with with > my Sharp PC-7000? I only ask because, for some odd reason, whenever I copy a > DOS program to a floppy (360K) in Windows, it does not want to work on the > Sharp, but works flawlessly on the Windows box (in a DOS window, of > course!). What could be happening? Is there something obvious that I'm not > doing right? > ____________________________________________________________ > David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. > > Computer Collection: > > "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. > "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. > "Delorean": TI-99/4A. > "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. > "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. > "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. > ____________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 25 19:44:07 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Altos machines References: <20000325.105924.-4124761.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <001301bf96c4$c6d70540$3d483cd1@winbook> This one here isn't going to run that OS. It's based on a Z80B. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 9:59 AM Subject: Re: Altos machines > Yeah, I used to maintain one of these beasts in the mid-80's. > It is a single 8086, with either 512 or 900-something k ram, > and it runs the Xenix-86 OS. The thing used a couple of Q540 > disk drives, and with four users on it, swapped it's brains > out like you wouldn't believe. > > The version of Xenix that was running on it at the time > couldn't decide if it was Edition 7 or System III-- fsck > said it was a System III fs, the banner on start up mentioned > something about Edition 7. > > Anyways, it's amazing what some careful programming can > accomplish with <1MB ram, and an 8Mc 16 bit CPU. They > ran a cellular billing office with this thing, and they > would load subscriber data onto this thing from 7-track > (or was it 8-track ?) tape that they got from the mainframe. > > I had to reload the Xenix OS once-- the default root password > is SOTLA :^). > > > Jeff > > On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 08:09:04 -0700 "Richard Erlacher" > writes: > > Well, this model 586 has 5-1/4" drives in the main unit and the tape > > drive > > is in a separate enclosure. These are desktop-style boxes, though I > > doubt > > theyd be used on a desktop. The hard drive is a full-height > > nominally 40MB > > 5-1/4" drive. I've left this thing alone, though it's a source of > > Z-80 type > > system parts. The HDC is a 2900-based number not particularly > > similar to > > any other that I can recognize. The tape unit hasn't been opened > > yet. I > > may get to that some day, but I see the two boxes as a source of > > parts and > > little else. They're pretty heavy, so I don't anticipate shipping > > them > > anywhere. > > > > Dick > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 25 19:51:37 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Mac Disk Drive References: Message-ID: <001901bf96c5$d3312400$3d483cd1@winbook> I got 'im opened up. The problem I wanted to address was the fact that the external thumbwheel didn't seem to have any effect. Once I opened the box up, I was able to rectify the disconnect. 80MB is about the right size for CP/M-80. Now, if only I could find a BIOS implementation and maybe a couple of utilities for a WD33C93 of which I've got several. I'm sure it's been done, yet I haven't a clue where to snoop for it. I may actually have to . . . . . . write some code . . . Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 10:36 AM Subject: Re: Mac Disk Drive > > You need to tell us who makes the enclosure, etc. Some are clearly not > > designed for the end user to be able to open, typically the real small > > _Everything_ can be openned by _this_ end-user. And a lot of things go > back together again afterwards... > > > enclosures. The larger boxes almost always are just some screws, sometimes > > under labels. > > Another thing to look at is the feet. Sometimes there are screws hidden > under stick-on feet. Sometimes the screws that hold the feet on also hold > the box together. > > -tony > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 25 19:57:05 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? References: Message-ID: <001f01bf96c6$969b14a0$3d483cd1@winbook> It may be quite implementation sensitive, but I've got an older APA348 (the latest is the '358) and a Belkin adapter, (they only make one) and the BELKIN outperforms the ADAPTEC by quite a bit. I get about 960 KB/sec on a drive that does about that well on an ADAPTEC AHA1460 PC-Card adapter on this notebook. The Adaptec 348, by comparison, yields a max of about 220KB/sec, and the '358 seems to max out at about 160. This is on a cheapo WINBOOK XL with 32MB ram and the small (2GB) HDD. I have to believe they'd do better elsewhere, though I've not tested it. I've tried the '348 and found it capable of about 200 nearly anywhere so long as the attached device is that fast. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 4:19 PM Subject: Re: Parallel port hard drives? > >Does anyone know of any parallel port hard drives that will work with with > >my Sharp PC-7000? I only ask because, for some odd reason, whenever I copy a > >DOS program to a floppy (360K) in Windows, it does not want to work on the > >Sharp, but works flawlessly on the Windows box (in a DOS window, of > >course!). What could be happening? Is there something obvious that I'm not > >doing right? > > What I bought was an Adaptec Parallel to SCSI adapter, slow but works > pretty well. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Mar 25 20:10:05 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? References: Message-ID: <003101bf96c8$676410e0$3d483cd1@winbook> It just occurred to me that the Mac-drive I just cleaned up and resealed in its case would be a candidate for the sort of thing it seems you're wnating to do. I have about half a dozen externally packaged SCSI drives of various sizes which I use for that purpose. These range in size from the little 80-meg MAC drive to a 2GB Micropolis I have had for about 7 years. They've seldom given me cause to 'cuss 'em and tend to make installations of things you might be inclined to use a CD to install quite painless and easy to repeat. I started doing that the week I bought my AHA348 for $1.50 at the thrift store. This incredible bargain moved me to seek a practical application. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Ford To: Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 4:19 PM Subject: Re: Parallel port hard drives? > >Does anyone know of any parallel port hard drives that will work with with > >my Sharp PC-7000? I only ask because, for some odd reason, whenever I copy a > >DOS program to a floppy (360K) in Windows, it does not want to work on the > >Sharp, but works flawlessly on the Windows box (in a DOS window, of > >course!). What could be happening? Is there something obvious that I'm not > >doing right? > > What I bought was an Adaptec Parallel to SCSI adapter, slow but works > pretty well. > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Mar 25 21:00:34 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Drives on PDP-11 Message-ID: <000325220034.224003d3@trailing-edge.com> >I have a full backup of the drive via COPY. Onto....? Is your backup bootable? > I would like to graft a >different hard disk onto this machine. > >I have available in ST506-type is a fujitsu 40mb and a seagate st4096. >How do connect the second drive? The official way is with a 6-button front panel for your box... but you've got a bigger question to ask yourself first: is your disk controller a RQDX1 (M8639-YA), a RQDX2 (M8639-YB), or a RQDX3 (M7555)? The answer will determine what sort of drives you can hook up. >How would I configure drive geometry to match the drive I am installing? You have to format the "new" drive with the appropriate XXDP formatting program, ZRQB?? for a RQDX1/2, or ZRQC?? for a RQDX3. >How difficult is it to substitute a standard double-sided floppy mech for >the wierd but nifty-looking floppy drives that are in it now? You're asking a lot of really basic questions about this sort of stuff, enough to indicate to me that you haven't read the definitive FAQ about the small DEC drive systems of this era. I highly recommend that you read "third-party-disks.txt" available from ftp.spc.edu and other places, it will answer a *lot* of your questions like this. But, the short of it is, if you have a RQDX1 or 2 you can't put the same drives on it as if you had a RQDX3, and we can't make any specific recommendations until you tell us which you have. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Mar 25 21:14:22 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: <001f01bf96c6$969b14a0$3d483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: I use the 358 with an EPP parallel port and get over 500KB/s with an old quantum 160meg drive. I tried one of the Belkins and finally returned it since it had problems with most of my scsi devices. After spending hours on tech support over a couple of weeks and even buying a separate ps to provide termination power (their recommendation), I swapped it out with a new one. Same problems...they couldn't figure out the problem and finally RMA'd it. The Adaptec, while my least favorite scsi solution, at least worked with my old HP Scanjet IIP... On Sat, 25 Mar 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > It may be quite implementation sensitive, but I've got an older APA348 (the > latest is the '358) and a Belkin adapter, (they only make one) and the > BELKIN outperforms the ADAPTEC by quite a bit. I get about 960 KB/sec on a > drive that does about that well on an ADAPTEC AHA1460 PC-Card adapter on > this notebook. The Adaptec 348, by comparison, yields a max of about > 220KB/sec, and the '358 seems to max out at about 160. This is on a cheapo > WINBOOK XL with 32MB ram and the small (2GB) HDD. I have to believe they'd > do better elsewhere, though I've not tested it. I've tried the '348 and > found it capable of about 200 nearly anywhere so long as the attached device > is that fast. > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Ford > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2000 4:19 PM > Subject: Re: Parallel port hard drives? > > > > >Does anyone know of any parallel port hard drives that will work with > with > > >my Sharp PC-7000? I only ask because, for some odd reason, whenever I > copy a > > >DOS program to a floppy (360K) in Windows, it does not want to work on > the > > >Sharp, but works flawlessly on the Windows box (in a DOS window, of > > >course!). What could be happening? Is there something obvious that I'm > not > > >doing right? > > > > What I bought was an Adaptec Parallel to SCSI adapter, slow but works > > pretty well. > > > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Mar 25 21:19:39 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Drives on PDP-11 Message-ID: <200003260319.WAA23446@world.std.com> > Does anyone know of any parallel port hard drives that will work with with > my Sharp PC-7000? I only ask because, for some odd reason, whenever I copy a > DOS program to a floppy (360K) in Windows, it does not want to work on the > Sharp, but works flawlessly on the Windows box (in a DOS window, of > course!). What could be happening? Is there something obvious that I'm not > doing right? Are you using a 1.2MB floppy drive to write a 360K floppy disk? From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Mar 25 20:35:49 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <20000324203506.A23874@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:35:06 -0500) References: <200003250032.TAA16766@world.std.com> <20000324203506.A23874@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000326023549.28803.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote: > I think it's how they load the flash drive in the first > place. Which means that they can remove the connector and use a bed-of-nails sort of device instead. > and a socket for > the amazingly tiny SMT flash ROM itself would be pretty expensive... Actually, SSOP and TSOP production sockets can be had for under $1. From vaxman at uswest.net Sun Mar 26 00:19:23 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: TU58 Peripheral Emulation In-Reply-To: <200003250310.WAA25722@world.std.com> Message-ID: The main problem with the version on dBit's ftp site is it assumes VAX byte order. The command packets are loaded byte for byte into the data structure which messes up all the shorts. The same problem exists for the response packets. clint On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > I've looked at it and it's a bit old but should work. All a tu58 is > if you ignor the tape drive itself is a 256k block addressable memeory at > the end of a serial line talking a packet protocal. It only took 2048 > bytes (with selftest and autoboot) of 8085 code to do it so it's not > rocket science. > > Now to do that on a PC or whatever running most any OS is to beable to > create a datafile of 256k and address any 512bytes block within it. So if > you look at that code most of the work is working aound the OS! > > Allison > > > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Mar 26 00:54:18 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: Need IBM Penpoint install disks for ThinkPad 730t In-Reply-To: <200003260103.TAA03404@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: >I have a couple of 730t's that work, complete with the cute little >PCMCIA hard drives, and the suitcase docking station with the >Kodak Diconix printer. Only problem is, the OS is password locked Reccomp Group in Santa Ana CA sold those by the pallet, cheap for just that reason. If you find a solution I am curious too since they may still have some. From red at bears.org Sun Mar 26 01:42:10 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: laptop failure modes Message-ID: I have a laptop given to me by a former co-worker who claimed it was broken. It doesn't fall into the ten-year category, but I've heard people complaining of failures just like this one in many other laptops. The laptop won't run if the battery is in the unit. AC or DC. If the battery is pulled, it will run on the AC adapter just fine. The battery itself seems fine as does the charging circuit. I can discharge the battery, insert it into the machine and have it be charged later (according to the charge indicator on the battery; I haven't checked it out with a DMM or anything). What is likely to cause this sort of fault? ok r. From mew_jac at swbell.net Sun Mar 26 07:05:48 2000 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: TU58 Peripheral Emulation Message-ID: <0FS100CXJ5PNQJ@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> I believe Tim Shoppa has a TU58 emulator product. Maybe Tim can tell us the state and cost of the product? I also have some code gathered up over the last few years for DOS and Linux. If anyone is interested I can dig it out... Regards, At 11:19 PM 3/25/00 -0700, you wrote: > >The main problem with the version on dBit's ftp site is it assumes >VAX byte order. The command packets are loaded byte for byte into >the data structure which messes up all the shorts. The same problem >exists for the response packets. > >clint > > >On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Allison J Parent wrote: > >> >> > > > >> I've looked at it and it's a bit old but should work. All a tu58 is >> if you ignor the tape drive itself is a 256k block addressable memeory at >> the end of a serial line talking a packet protocal. It only took 2048 >> bytes (with selftest and autoboot) of 8085 code to do it so it's not >> rocket science. >> >> Now to do that on a PC or whatever running most any OS is to beable to >> create a datafile of 256k and address any 512bytes block within it. So if >> you look at that code most of the work is working aound the OS! >> >> Allison >> >> >> >> > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Mar 26 09:29:43 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: FOCAL (was: KIM/6502 code) References: <20000323225436.4981.qmail@web120.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <01da01bf9738$1db92960$b6711fd1@default> I ordered the new 2nd edition of the book with CD and it's great. John ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Evans To: Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 4:54 PM Subject: Re: FOCAL (was: KIM/6502 code) > > Hey Cameron, > > I'd be one of your first customers if you did :-) > > Just read a little about this device in the book "Fire > In The Valley". (Book review coming...) Sounds like > it was kind of groundbreaking, being among the first > kits to provide a keypad for input, as opposed to > toggle switches, etc. They have one on display at > Powell's Technical Bookstore in Portland, OR. Wish I > had one that I could light up. Maybe someday... > > EE > > --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > [snip] > > (Earl, I'll > > gladly start a KIM-1 page on retrobits. :-) > > > ===== > Earl Evans > retro@retrobits.com > > Enjoy Retrocomputing Today! > Join us at http://www.retrobits.com > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sun Mar 26 10:36:17 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:23 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? Message-ID: <20000326163617.4538.qmail@hotmail.com> >Are you using a 1.2MB floppy drive to write a 360K floppy disk? Yes, but I used the drive (1.2Mb) to format it to 360K. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Mar 26 10:50:32 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Altos stuff, *FREE*, DC Area Message-ID: <000326115032.224003d3@trailing-edge.com> Bill and I spent the morning sorting through the Altos stuff we had rescued, and this is what we think we have: Altos 5 Box, Z-80 CPU, bunch of serial ports, two 5.25" floppy drives. Also a binder full of Altos 5 documentation. Altos 8000 Boxes (2 of them), Z-80 CPU's, bunch of serial ports, 8" floppy drives, and a binder full of accompanying documentation. Altos 68000 Boxes (3 of them), 68000 CPU's, one of the boxes has an expansion board filled with RAM, two of the boxes have 8" hard drives, all of the boxes have an 8" floppy drive, one of the boxes is missing the panel on the back filled with serial ports. We also have lots of Altos 8" software distribution floppies. Condition is unknown. Some of the boxes have stickers from ten years ago indicating that they were (at least partly) functioning back then, but we haven't powered any of this stuff on. Anyone interested? We will consider shipping these to a good home, though we'd prefer to find local (Washington DC area) takers. You don't have to take them all, you can pick and choose if you wish. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 26 10:54:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? Message-ID: <200003261654.LAA03200@world.std.com> <>Are you using a 1.2MB floppy drive to write a 360K floppy disk? < from "David Vohs" at Mar 26, 0 04:36:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 258 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000326/f3b6cd0c/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Mar 26 11:17:51 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: GRiD 2270s References: <20000321003701.B15257@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <04b201bf9747$38083f40$b6711fd1@default> I use yahoo and found several good sites with info and setup software for this machine. Also the company that purchased Grid still has spec's and software for this machine on their website. I just searched using 'grid 2270' John ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Bradford To: Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 12:37 AM Subject: GRiD 2270s > Anybody know where I can get info on these? I picked up 3 of them today, > complete with batteries, but no power supplies or pens (they can be used as > a "flat pad" mode, with a pen, or the screen flips up to reveal the keyboard). > > Any info would be appreciated. > > Bill > > -- > +---------------+-------------------+ > | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | > +-------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------+-----------------------------------------+ > | Version: 3.12 GCS d- s:++ a- C++++ US++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ N++ o K+++ w--- | > | O- M-- V- PS PE+ Y+ PGP t+ 5 X- R-- tv+++ b++++ DI++++ D++ G++ e++ h r++ y+ | > +--------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------------------------------------------+ > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 26 11:33:41 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? References: Message-ID: <002301bf9749$6de38fa0$5d483cd1@winbook> It doesn't matter whether the diskette is a 1.2 MB one or a 360K type, but the drive which wrote it make a great deal of difference. 1.2 MB drives can read 360k diskettes just fine, but you can't expect a drive designed to operate on half the track width (twice the density) and even more bit density, to erase the writing of a 48 TPI 360K drive properly. It works OK the first time, and less well the second ... and so on until it fails because the residue left behind by the 48tpi drive generates too much noise for the 96 tpi drive to discriminate between noise and signal. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 10:08 AM Subject: Re: Parallel port hard drives? > > > > >Are you using a 1.2MB floppy drive to write a 360K floppy disk? > > > > Yes, but I used the drive (1.2Mb) to format it to 360K. > > Did you start with a bulk-erased (i.e. with a degausser) disk? And is it > a real 360K disk (and not a 1.2Mbyte one)? > > -tony > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Mar 26 11:41:37 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Large qty of GRiD external floppy drives available References: <20000321185508.B27030@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <06cf01bf974a$8a0ac940$b6711fd1@default> Just got back in town and read your offer, if they still have them I will take two. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Bradford To: Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 6:55 PM Subject: Large qty of GRiD external floppy drives available > Going by the goodwill today, they've got a LARGE quantity of external > floppy drives (probably 15-20 at least) for the 2260 and 2270 models > for $2.95 each. If anybody needs one for their GRiD, let me know, and > I'll pick one up for you (already got one for each of my 2270s). > > They look BRAND NEW - no scratches/wear, and the connectors that plug > into the laptop have a little blue plastic bag still over them.... > > Now, if I could just find a power supply and/or a pen. > > Bill > > -- > +---------------+-------------------+ > | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | > +-------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------+-----------------------------------------+ > | Version: 3.12 GCS d- s:++ a- C++++ US++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ N++ o K+++ w--- | > | O- M-- V- PS PE+ Y+ PGP t+ 5 X- R-- tv+++ b++++ DI++++ D++ G++ e++ h r++ y+ | > +--------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------------------------------------------+ > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Mar 26 11:54:10 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Fw: Mac Computer Message-ID: <07e201bf974c$4b35f800$b6711fd1@default> Here are some more items up for grabs. John ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin and Julie Grove To: Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 4:35 PM Subject: Mac Computer > Hi, > I saw the article in the Pioneer Press. I have a Macintosh SE/30 (~1989) > and an Apple ImageWriter II. Both are in excellent condition. Do you have > either of these in your collection yet? Let me know if you are interested > in either one or if you need more info about them. > > We also have a "Apple Multiple Scan 15 Display" monitor (~1995). The screen > has a blue cast to it. According to the Apple website, there is a way to > fix this problem, but I no longer have a use for the monitor. Let me know > if you are interested in this as well. > > We live in Western WI, but come to WBL on occasion, so we could drop it off. > > J.G. > From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sun Mar 26 13:31:29 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? Message-ID: <20000326193129.16648.qmail@hotmail.com> >Did you start with a bulk-erased (i.e. with a degausser) disk? And >is it a >real 360K disk (and not a 1.2Mbyte one)? > >-tony Yes, it was a real 360K disk, I just reformatted it in Windows (it will let you choose between 1.2Mb or 360 formats). ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Mar 26 13:55:00 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? Message-ID: <200003261955.OAA16804@world.std.com> Message-ID: > It doesn't matter whether the diskette is a 1.2 MB one or a 360K type, but Give us a break! YOU know better! YES, IT WILL MATTER! And it is NOT necessary for any idiot to say, "But I use the wrong type of diskettes all the time." 360K is 300 Oerstedt. 1.2M is 600 Oerstedt. My personal experience is that using a 600 Eorstedt diskette in a 300 Oerstedt application results in a significantly reduced lifetime for the data. Sometimes minutes! > the drive which wrote it make a great deal of difference. 1.2 MB drives can > read 360k diskettes just fine, but you can't expect a drive designed to > operate on half the track width (twice the density) and even more bit > density, to erase the writing of a 48 TPI 360K drive properly. It works OK > the first time, and less well the second ... and so on until it fails > because the residue left behind by the 48tpi drive generates too much noise > for the 96 tpi drive to discriminate between noise and signal. If you HAVE to use a 1.2M drive to write 360K diskettes, it is best to start with a virgin disk. And ALWAYS bulk erase it (preferably with a better bulk eraser than the one on your refrigerator door). THEN format it as 360K ("/4" in DOS). If the diskette is EVER written to by a 360K drive (even "ERASE"ing a file), then bulk erase and FORMAT in the 1.2M drive again. You have to take these steps if you want reliable writes to 360K in a 1.2M drive, even if you might sometimes get away with not doing it right. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From marvin at rain.org Sun Mar 26 15:39:15 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? References: Message-ID: <38DE8383.3B032EDB@rain.org> I remember a discussion on the Beginners/????? area on Prodigy many years ago when I had a discussion with an "expert" who argued it didn't make any difference. It really didn't matter to me, but the beginners who took that sad advice could well have problems and never know why. Hence I did argue the point, fruitlessly I might add, and of course, I knew this was one "expert" whose advice on anything was suspect. "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > It doesn't matter whether the diskette is a 1.2 MB one or a 360K type, but > > Give us a break! YOU know better! > YES, IT WILL MATTER! > And it is NOT necessary for any idiot to say, "But I use the wrong type of > diskettes all the time." > 360K is 300 Oerstedt. 1.2M is 600 Oerstedt. > My personal experience is that using a 600 Eorstedt diskette in a 300 > Oerstedt application results in a significantly reduced lifetime for the > data. Sometimes minutes! > > > the drive which wrote it make a great deal of difference. 1.2 MB drives can > > read 360k diskettes just fine, but you can't expect a drive designed to > > operate on half the track width (twice the density) and even more bit > > density, to erase the writing of a 48 TPI 360K drive properly. It works OK > > the first time, and less well the second ... and so on until it fails > > because the residue left behind by the 48tpi drive generates too much noise > > for the 96 tpi drive to discriminate between noise and signal. > > If you HAVE to use a 1.2M drive to write 360K diskettes, it is best to > start with a virgin disk. And ALWAYS bulk erase it (preferably with a > better bulk eraser than the one on your refrigerator door). THEN format > it as 360K ("/4" in DOS). If the diskette is EVER written to by a 360K > drive (even "ERASE"ing a file), then bulk erase and FORMAT in the 1.2M > drive again. > > You have to take these steps if you want reliable writes to 360K in a 1.2M > drive, even if you might sometimes get away with not doing it right. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Mar 26 16:49:49 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Next Password Message-ID: <008501bf9775$98853de0$a5731fd1@default> Picked up a next turbocolor station early this week and it powers up but is password protected, anyone know a quick way around this ? Thanks in advance John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000326/611aee4c/attachment.html From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Mar 26 15:57:16 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Altos machines References: <000901bf9603$61af2600$92e893c3@proteus> <001101bf9621$fc630c20$7e483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: <025f01bf9775$aabdda80$329893c3@proteus> Hi Dick, > I have an ALTOS model 586, non-functioning with a DC600 or >some similar size tape cartridge drive. Do you knonw anyting >about that thing? Sorry, but no. All I recall of Altos was that they made a fair few Z80 based machines in the early '80s and that i386 based Xenix box we had at work. >....It appears to be a multiuser/server unit of some sort, as >it supports a number of serial ports. I bought this thing >about a year ago because one of the folks on this list asked >me to He later changed his mind and the thrift store where I >got it wouldn't even take it back because it was not PC or MAC >gear. Sounds interesting, it's a shame you're the other side of the planet.... What does it look like? I've just recalled that I did once see an Altos box at a radio rally (my then girlfriend made me leave it) which was similar in size to a PC tower case. The thing was a HORRIBLE shade of brown, I think had both a floppy and a tape drive, and had seperate "busy" indicators for each of the internal hard drives. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Mar 26 16:48:20 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: Message-ID: <026001bf9775$aba8d6c0$329893c3@proteus> Hi Tony, >> I do recall though that at one point we had a pair of cassette >>recorders running on the machine.... > > Do you have any memories of the 'dual cassette controller'.... Hmmm, I'm racking my brains but I don't recall any external unit. For some reason I seem to recall both cassette recorders attaching to seperate DIN sockets on the back of the machine...? But then again my memory of this is very hazy....it was 1979.... >> All the CP/M based machines were 32K machines....apart from one >>which had been mistakenly shipped with 64K. :-) > > Hmmm... Unlikely... > > The 380Z used 4116 16K DRAMs.... > Are you saying that RML shipped machines with extra boards in >them??? Yep, that's exactly what happened....we obviously got a machine which was intended for someone else.... > Oh yes... The 380Z had no backplane. You slotted the boards into >card guides that were fixed to the bottom of the case. And then ran >a 50 wire ribbon cable that carried all signals.... Yes, we had the top off ours numerous times. I remember reading an article on the machine where they went into quite a bit of detail on the bus....including how to build your own boards. I *THINK* I recall them remarking how similar the bus was to the SS-50 bus, BICBW. > I have one -- somewhere... Believe me, I know the problem.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Mar 26 14:30:00 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: FW: First come first served: VAX 11/750 (UK) References: <200003252156.QAA08910@world.std.com> Message-ID: <025e01bf9775$a998e280$329893c3@proteus> Hi Pete, > That's what I like to hear, I think I can get away with that :). Pete, that's the machine I told you I'd had to turn down due to lack of space when we spoke on the 'phone recently. It's BIG, 4 or 5 40" cabinets (disc drives and tape drive) and a 60" cabinet (tape drive)....good luck. BTW The processor has a PSU fault. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 26 17:16:06 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? References: Message-ID: <000d01bf9779$5d07ea20$76483cd1@winbook> I'm not sure I am the one who should wake up here. I would repeat "It doesn't matter whether the diskette is a 1.2 MB one or a 360K type" but it does depend what sort of drive it is. The Coercivity of the media will effect signal level in both reads and writes, but won't make up for the fact that the heads designed for 48tpi will write a significantly wider swath on the diskette than the 96tpi drive can erase. Consequently, and I'll bet you've had this experience, you can format a bulk erased diskette to 48tpi with a 96 TPI drive and have it work for a while. The more the diskette is written, by the 48tpi drive, the harder it becomes for the 96tpi drive to erase its writing, and, of course, the 48TPI drive will have the most trouble because the signal not erased in the 96tpi drive is perceived by the 48tpi drive as noise, while the signal written by the 96tpi is written at a lower level to begin with, since the drive relies on the higher coercivity of the medium to generate a larger signal amplitude if that factor is to come into play at all. Under worst-case conditions the signal is written to the inner tracks by the 96tpi drive, which attenuates write current on the inner tracks, and it is read by the 48TPI drive. The diskette was a bulk erased diskette and was formatted in the 96 tpi drive. The region of the diskette that we're using was written by the 48tpi drive and subsequently the new data was written in the 96TPI drive. Clearly, there is a risk that the 48tpi drive won't be able to distinguish the narrow channel of cleanly written data from the 96tpi drive, among the straddling field of residual signal at nominally the same frequency but out of phase with the sync field, address mark, data, and CRC written by the 96tpi drive. Consequently there's a real risk that there will be a data CRC error if not an address mark misread. Remember, in order to get the drive to perform properly at 96TPI, the head gaps had to be made narrow enough to avoid interference between adjacent tracks. This was accomplished by a combination of changes in head design/manufacture, write current levels, and read amplifier gain. I submit that it's the heads that make the difference that we normal mortals perceive as "not working" when the 360K drive can't read the 96tpi's writing. The signal to noise ratio is MUCH to low. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 1:16 PM Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? > > It doesn't matter whether the diskette is a 1.2 MB one or a 360K type, but > > Give us a break! YOU know better! > YES, IT WILL MATTER! > And it is NOT necessary for any idiot to say, "But I use the wrong type of > diskettes all the time." > 360K is 300 Oerstedt. 1.2M is 600 Oerstedt. > My personal experience is that using a 600 Eorstedt diskette in a 300 > Oerstedt application results in a significantly reduced lifetime for the > data. Sometimes minutes! > > > the drive which wrote it make a great deal of difference. 1.2 MB drives can > > read 360k diskettes just fine, but you can't expect a drive designed to > > operate on half the track width (twice the density) and even more bit > > density, to erase the writing of a 48 TPI 360K drive properly. It works OK > > the first time, and less well the second ... and so on until it fails > > because the residue left behind by the 48tpi drive generates too much noise > > for the 96 tpi drive to discriminate between noise and signal. > > If you HAVE to use a 1.2M drive to write 360K diskettes, it is best to > start with a virgin disk. And ALWAYS bulk erase it (preferably with a > better bulk eraser than the one on your refrigerator door). THEN format > it as 360K ("/4" in DOS). If the diskette is EVER written to by a 360K > drive (even "ERASE"ing a file), then bulk erase and FORMAT in the 1.2M > drive again. > > You have to take these steps if you want reliable writes to 360K in a 1.2M > drive, even if you might sometimes get away with not doing it right. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 26 17:22:02 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Altos machines References: <000901bf9603$61af2600$92e893c3@proteus> <001101bf9621$fc630c20$7e483cd1@winbook> <025f01bf9775$aabdda80$329893c3@proteus> Message-ID: <001501bf977a$17e5be80$76483cd1@winbook> This pair of boxes is nominally the same size, somewhat narrower than "rack-width" and about 7" tall. They're plastic boxes with a beige (could be influenced by many years' cigarrette smoke) exterior and black (probably ... I haven't looked closely at them for some time.) front. They're quite weighty. By that I mean absolutely too heavy to ship across the planet. regards, Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pachla To: Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 2:57 PM Subject: Re: Altos machines > Hi Dick, > > > I have an ALTOS model 586, non-functioning with a DC600 or > >some similar size tape cartridge drive. Do you knonw anyting > >about that thing? > > Sorry, but no. > > All I recall of Altos was that they made a fair few Z80 based machines in > the early '80s and that i386 based Xenix box we had at work. > > >....It appears to be a multiuser/server unit of some sort, as > >it supports a number of serial ports. I bought this thing > >about a year ago because one of the folks on this list asked > >me to He later changed his mind and the thrift store where I > >got it wouldn't even take it back because it was not PC or MAC > >gear. > > Sounds interesting, it's a shame you're the other side of the planet.... > > What does it look like? I've just recalled that I did once see an Altos box > at a radio rally (my then girlfriend made me leave it) which was similar in > size to a PC tower case. The thing was a HORRIBLE shade of brown, I think > had both a floppy and a tape drive, and had seperate "busy" indicators for > each of the internal hard drives. > > > TTFN - Pete. > > -- > Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. > Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > > peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk > -- > > From sipke at wxs.nl Sun Mar 26 17:29:44 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? References: <20000326193129.16648.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <005201bf977b$2c34e9a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> If reformatting a 360Kb on a 1.2Mb drive that already has data formatted & written with a 360Kb drive the following situation will occur if that floppy is subsequently read with a 360Kb drive. the 48 tpi track will have an 96 track inside it the 48 tpi drivehard will read average data from both the 48 and the 96 bits inside it = ######01010001010000100010000010000010##### To: Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 9:31 PM Subject: Re: Parallel port hard drives? > >Did you start with a bulk-erased (i.e. with a degausser) disk? And >is it a > >real 360K disk (and not a 1.2Mbyte one)? > > > >-tony > > Yes, it was a real 360K disk, I just reformatted it in Windows (it will let > you choose between 1.2Mb or 360 formats). > ____________________________________________________________ > David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. > > Computer Collection: > > "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. > "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. > "Delorean": TI-99/4A. > "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. > "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. > "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. > ____________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Mar 26 17:33:10 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Altos machines Message-ID: <000326183310.22400652@trailing-edge.com> >This pair of boxes is nominally the same size, somewhat narrower than >"rack-width" and about 7" tall. They're plastic boxes with a beige (could >be influenced by many years' cigarrette smoke) exterior and black (probably >... I haven't looked closely at them for some time.) front. > >They're quite weighty. By that I mean absolutely too heavy to ship across >the planet. Huh? The boxes you're talking about must be different than the 6 Altos boxes I have that meet the same dimensions... they only weigh 55 or 60 pounds each. (OB disclaimer: my standard for "heavy enough that I don't want to lift it too often" is a DG 6045 drive or a DEC RA80 drive, about 140-150 pounds. I used to be a puny weakling until I started collecting old computers and drives...) Tim. From sipke at wxs.nl Sun Mar 26 17:36:57 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? References: Message-ID: <005c01bf977c$2da9b9e0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> This is only part of the story The 1.2 Mb floppies are written with a lower write current than the 360 Kb. Since the magnetic quality of the former type is stronger and the tracks are smaller and closer this will prevent crossover effects between the tracks. In certain situations it may be desirable to attempt a datatransfer between different drive systems. Then a repeated formatting of a bulkereased or brandnew unformatted 360Kb floppy written with a 1.2 Drive may do the trick. You will also have to write the data repeatedly. This may only work over hours or days rather than month or years. Sipke de Wal ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 10:16 PM Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? > > It doesn't matter whether the diskette is a 1.2 MB one or a 360K type, but > > Give us a break! YOU know better! > YES, IT WILL MATTER! > And it is NOT necessary for any idiot to say, "But I use the wrong type of > diskettes all the time." > 360K is 300 Oerstedt. 1.2M is 600 Oerstedt. > My personal experience is that using a 600 Eorstedt diskette in a 300 > Oerstedt application results in a significantly reduced lifetime for the > data. Sometimes minutes! > > > the drive which wrote it make a great deal of difference. 1.2 MB drives can > > read 360k diskettes just fine, but you can't expect a drive designed to > > operate on half the track width (twice the density) and even more bit > > density, to erase the writing of a 48 TPI 360K drive properly. It works OK > > the first time, and less well the second ... and so on until it fails > > because the residue left behind by the 48tpi drive generates too much noise > > for the 96 tpi drive to discriminate between noise and signal. > > If you HAVE to use a 1.2M drive to write 360K diskettes, it is best to > start with a virgin disk. And ALWAYS bulk erase it (preferably with a > better bulk eraser than the one on your refrigerator door). THEN format > it as 360K ("/4" in DOS). If the diskette is EVER written to by a 360K > drive (even "ERASE"ing a file), then bulk erase and FORMAT in the 1.2M > drive again. > > You have to take these steps if you want reliable writes to 360K in a 1.2M > drive, even if you might sometimes get away with not doing it right. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 26 17:30:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <026001bf9775$aba8d6c0$329893c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Mar 26, 0 11:48:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3050 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000327/4630d07d/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Mar 26 17:58:35 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: FW: Items still available (Cleaning house) In-Reply-To: <8bll1h$1d0_001@news.fast.net> References: <8bll1h$1d0_001@news.fast.net> Message-ID: I'm CC'ing this to both classiccmp and port-vax. Found on Usenet. Keith Huff, in Allentown, PA has a bunch of DEC'ish freebies up for grabs. Get 'em while you can! Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On Sun, 26 Mar 00 18:31:13 GMT, in comp.sys.dec you wrote: >> I still have some stuff I need to get rid of, otherwise it goes to the >>dumpster. Everything listed is best offer and shipping. Items located in >>Allentown, Pa 18103. >> >> >> (2) VR262 19" mono monitors >> >> (1) VR260 19" mono monitor >> >> (2) DECstation 3100 motherboards >> >> (18) DEC 2Mb 80-pin SIMMs >> >> (1) VFB01 mono framebuffer >> >> (10) used TK50 tapes >> >> (6) brand new TK50 tapes >> >> (1) bare TK50 drive >> >> (1) LK201 keyboard >> >> (1) VT320 terminal >> >> (1) VT1200 mono X-term base >> >> (1) Wyse WY-85 terminal & keyboard >> >> (8) CDROM caddies >> >> (1) DZ11 users guide >> >> (1) DZ11 maintenance manual >> >> (1) RL01/RL02 disk subsystem users manual >> >> (23) 6250 BPI 9-track tapes >> >>Keith Huff >> >>kshuff@fast.net -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From at258 at osfn.org Sun Mar 26 18:49:05 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Altos machines In-Reply-To: <025f01bf9775$aabdda80$329893c3@proteus> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Mar 2000, Peter Pachla wrote: > Hi Dick, > > > I have an ALTOS model 586, non-functioning with a DC600 or > >some similar size tape cartridge drive. Do you knonw anyting > What does it look like? I've just recalled that I did once see an Altos box > at a radio rally (my then girlfriend made me leave it) which was similar in > size to a PC tower case. The thing was a HORRIBLE shade of brown, I think > had both a floppy and a tape drive, and had seperate "busy" indicators for > each of the internal hard drives. It seems to me the one we have is a very dirty looking brown also, with strange angles on the case that give it a sort of Flash Gordon feeling. M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Mar 26 19:10:23 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives?" (Mar 26, 16:16) References: <000d01bf9779$5d07ea20$76483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: <10003270210.ZM16820@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 26, 16:16, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I'm not sure I am the one who should wake up here. I would repeat "It > doesn't matter whether the diskette is a 1.2 MB one or a 360K type" but it > does depend what sort of drive it is. No, Fred is right. There are plenty of drives designed to use single density or double density disks at 96 tpi, and disks cerified for such use, and they work perfectly reliably for 80 tracks, SD or DD. Historically, such drives predate 1.2M (HD) drives. Provided you use SD/DD media in a drive using the correct write current, and providing there isn't any other leftover rubbish for the wider heads in a 48 tpi drive, any reasonably well-aligned 48 tpi will handle those disks just fine. However, no 48 tpi drive I have ever heard of is designed to use HD 1.2M media, and if you try it, it will give trouble sooner or later. All the evidence indicates that the major factor is the magnetic coercivity of the media. > [...] the fact that the heads designed for 48tpi will write a > significantly wider swath on > the diskette than the 96tpi drive can erase. Consequently, and I'll bet > you've had this experience, you can format a bulk erased diskette to 48tpi > with a 96 TPI drive and have it work for a while. > > The more the diskette is written, by the 48tpi drive, the harder it becomes > for the 96tpi drive to erase its writing, Again, no. Providing you're only reading back the part overwritten by the 96 tpi drive, this is not true. It only matters if you both write with 48 tpi, overwrite with 96 tpi, and then try to read back with a 48 tpi drive -- which is not what was being discussed. And it doesn't make any difference whether the 48 tpi drive writes once or one thousand times, the magnetic field strength is the same! > and, of course, the 48TPI drive > will have the most trouble because the signal not erased in the 96tpi drive > is perceived by the 48tpi drive as noise, while the signal written by the > 96tpi is written at a lower level to begin with, since the drive relies on > the higher coercivity of the medium to generate a larger signal amplitude if > that factor is to come into play at all. No, it doesn't rely on the higher coercivity, not when it's writing single or double density. It only does that for High Density. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 26 19:13:44 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? References: <20000326193129.16648.qmail@hotmail.com> <005201bf977b$2c34e9a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <000701bf9789$b2bce1e0$6c483cd1@winbook> It looks to me as though you're addressing the flux reversal density issue rather than the track density issue. WHile they're related in terms of the coercivity of the media, we're discussing a situation wherein the bit rates with respect to the rotational speed are intentionally the same. It's the heads and related circuitry, and only that, that are different, aside from the mechanism used to generate twice the track density. The same problem exists with my LS120 drive formatting a disketted and subsequently expecting the normal 1.44 MB drive to resolve the data written with the high-resolution head. The manufacturer warns about this. The media are precisely the same, yet the problem of the "normal" head resolving data written on a much narrower path and muddled with lots of adjacent signal remaining behind because the high-resolution head can't erase more than the middle of it still remains. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. You must keep focused on the problem. The fcpi (flux changes per inch) remain the same, and the rotational rate remains the same. It's just the head gap size and the nominal signal-to-noise ratio that make the difference. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Sipke de Wal To: Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Parallel port hard drives? > If reformatting a 360Kb on a 1.2Mb drive that already has data formatted & > written with a > 360Kb drive the following situation will occur if that floppy is > subsequently read > with a 360Kb drive. > > the 48 tpi track will have an 96 track inside it > the 48 tpi drivehard will read average data from both the 48 and the 96 bits > inside it > > = > ######01010001010000100010000010000010##### track > ######00000000000000000000000000000000##### track > ######00000000000000000000000000000000##### track > ######01010001010000100010000010000010##### track > = > | > +-------- Head position cannot distinguish > between 0 or 1 > > Furthermore the adjecent 48 tpi tracks will interfere with the 96data cause > the encoded magnets will > will start to merge. (Big magnet domains will make inroads into smaller over > time) > > As Tony Duel stated: It may be important to know if the floppies were > brandnew or bulkereased (degaussed) > or if they were written with a 48tpi head before reformatting. If you > bulkerease them before reformatting > (reformat preferably several times) you may get away with it since you will > not get the interference from old > data. and the new format will be stronger. You may also have to write > identical data several times but only > with the 1.2 kb drive. Any writing of data with a 48tpi drivehead will put > you back to square one. > > I circomvented this situation with separate floppies. One to transfer data > from system A (1.2mb) to System B (360Kb) > and another (formatted on the 360kb drive) to bring data from B to A. > > For a more permanent solution I would look for an extra 360 Kb drive > > > Sipke de Wal > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David Vohs > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 9:31 PM > Subject: Re: Parallel port hard drives? > > > > >Did you start with a bulk-erased (i.e. with a degausser) disk? And >is it > a > > >real 360K disk (and not a 1.2Mbyte one)? > > > > > >-tony > > > > Yes, it was a real 360K disk, I just reformatted it in Windows (it will > let > > you choose between 1.2Mb or 360 formats). > > ____________________________________________________________ > > David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. > > > > Computer Collection: > > > > "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. > > "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. > > "Delorean": TI-99/4A. > > "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. > > "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. > > "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. > > ____________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 26 19:15:58 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Altos machines References: <000326183310.22400652@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <001101bf978a$02c047e0$6c483cd1@winbook> I agree, of course. I've got floppy drive enclosures which outweigh these Altos boxes, but I'd not want to lift them either. The incremental value of shipping these puppies is relatively low, however, and it was that aspect that serves as the basis of my remark. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 4:33 PM Subject: Re: Altos machines > >This pair of boxes is nominally the same size, somewhat narrower than > >"rack-width" and about 7" tall. They're plastic boxes with a beige (could > >be influenced by many years' cigarrette smoke) exterior and black (probably > >... I haven't looked closely at them for some time.) front. > > > >They're quite weighty. By that I mean absolutely too heavy to ship across > >the planet. > > Huh? The boxes you're talking about must be different than the 6 Altos > boxes I have that meet the same dimensions... they only weigh 55 or 60 > pounds each. > > (OB disclaimer: my standard for "heavy enough that I don't want to lift > it too often" is a DG 6045 drive or a DEC RA80 drive, about 140-150 pounds. > I used to be a puny weakling until I started collecting old computers and > drives...) > > Tim. From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Mar 26 19:15:01 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: FW: Items still available (Cleaning house) References: <8bll1h$1d0_001@news.fast.net> Message-ID: <38DEB615.A419D62A@idirect.com> >On Sun, 26 Mar 00 18:31:13 GMT, in comp.sys.dec you wrote: > I still have some stuff I need to get rid of, otherwise it goes to the > dumpster. Everything listed is best offer and shipping. Items located in > Allentown, Pa 18103. > (10) used TK50 tapes > (6) brand new TK50 tapes > (1) bare TK50 drive Jerome Fine replies: This is all for hobby use, so I will not be able to out bid any one who wants these for commercial use. If no one else wants the TK50 drive and tapes, I wish to have them. > (1) LK201 keyboard > (1) VT320 terminal I don't know how much it cost to ship a VT320. If not too much, I would appreciate this as well. Thank you for posting in any case. I am in Toronto, so shipping by ground should be quite sufficient. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 26 19:19:34 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Altos machines References: Message-ID: <001d01bf978a$834ff680$6c483cd1@winbook> These are a dark beige, somewhat darker than the typical PC-beige after ten years in a tobacco-smoke-rich environment. They're a yellowish beige too yellow to be considered brown. I would point out, however, that I've got a red-green color deficiency. I can read resistor code, but generally only in natural daylight. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Merle K. Peirce To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 5:49 PM Subject: Re: Altos machines > On Sun, 26 Mar 2000, Peter Pachla wrote: > > > Hi Dick, > > > > > I have an ALTOS model 586, non-functioning with a DC600 or > > >some similar size tape cartridge drive. Do you knonw anyting > > > What does it look like? I've just recalled that I did once see an Altos box > > at a radio rally (my then girlfriend made me leave it) which was similar in > > size to a PC tower case. The thing was a HORRIBLE shade of brown, I think > > had both a floppy and a tape drive, and had seperate "busy" indicators for > > each of the internal hard drives. > > It seems to me the one we have is a very dirty looking brown also, with > strange angles on the case that give it a sort of Flash Gordon feeling. > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > From Technoid at cheta.net Sun Mar 26 19:22:07 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Next Password In-Reply-To: <008501bf9775$98853de0$a5731fd1@default> Message-ID: <200003270121.UAA07241@lexington.ioa.net> If you have a scsi drive you might try hanging it on a clone and mounting the partion under linux. You could then edit the passwd file in etc and gain access by simply deleting the coded password for ROOT. I am thinking about the same problem with a SUN box and that is the most likely I think so far. Basicly you need to boot single-user which disables all security and destroy the root password. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Sun Mar 26 19:52:38 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? References: <000d01bf9779$5d07ea20$76483cd1@winbook> <10003270210.ZM16820@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <002301bf978f$21e904e0$6c483cd1@winbook> Clearly there's a lot of "folklore" muddying the water here. You're right, this is somewhat off topic for the original parallel-port hard drive question. While I was sleeping, someone drove the thread in the direction of solving rather than circumventing the original problem, and that was related to a problem engendered by writing 48TPI media for use on a Commodore machine, or some such, on a 1.2MB 5.25" floppy drive ... I THINK ... I'm a firm believer in transporting data on portable hard drives rather than floppies, since they're MUCH less error prone and MUCH faster and handier. Please see embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 6:10 PM Subject: Re: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? > On Mar 26, 16:16, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I'm not sure I am the one who should wake up here. I would repeat "It > > doesn't matter whether the diskette is a 1.2 MB one or a 360K type" but > it > > does depend what sort of drive it is. > > No, Fred is right. There are plenty of drives designed to use single > density or double density disks at 96 tpi, and disks cerified for such use, Those are different drives and have the same head gap size problems as the 1.2MB variety. The diskettes for those (720K 5-1/4" floppies) were also a class apart from the run of the mill. Nevertheless, the difference that was essential was the drive, read/write hardware. This included both the 1.2MB drives and the 720K drives in 5.25" size. The media had to be different to support the higher flux reversal density, and the heads had to be more sensitive to flux changes so that they could be driven at levels that wouldn't engender too much crosstalk. Unfortunately, the heads with which 48TPI drives were normally equipped were not capable of this sensitivity, given the original task for which they were designed. Later in the evolution of the technology, media were alleged to be more or less the same, and drives eventually became the same, in the spirit of economy, and one wasn't told whether the drives he was buying were capable of the higher flux-reversal or track density or not. Likewise, one wasn't guaranteed that the media weren't the high-coercivity type, since it didn't hurt the older style of drives to use it. All this has been stirred into the mix of confusion. I would caution against drawing any conclusions from evidence gathered from 48TPI drives after 1.2MB drives became available. The manufacturers were more interested in reducing their diversity than in making drives you couldn't use as "the other" sort. > and they work perfectly reliably for 80 tracks, SD or DD. Historically, > such drives predate 1.2M (HD) drives. Provided you use SD/DD media in a > drive using the correct write current, and providing there isn't any other > leftover rubbish for the wider heads in a 48 tpi drive, any reasonably > well-aligned 48 tpi will handle those disks just fine. However, no 48 tpi > drive I have ever heard of is designed to use HD 1.2M media, and if you try > it, it will give trouble sooner or later. All the evidence indicates that > the major factor is the magnetic coercivity of the media. > > > [...] the fact that the heads designed for 48tpi will write a > > significantly wider swath on > > the diskette than the 96tpi drive can erase. Consequently, and I'll bet > > you've had this experience, you can format a bulk erased diskette to > 48tpi > > with a 96 TPI drive and have it work for a while. > > > > The more the diskette is written, by the 48tpi drive, the harder it > becomes > > for the 96tpi drive to erase its writing, > > Again, no. Providing you're only reading back the part overwritten by the > 96 tpi drive, this is not true. It only matters if you both write with 48 > tpi, overwrite with 96 tpi, and then try to read back with a 48 tpi drive > -- which is not what was being discussed. And it doesn't make any > difference whether the 48 tpi drive writes once or one thousand times, the > magnetic field strength is the same! > > > and, of course, the 48TPI drive > > will have the most trouble because the signal not erased in the 96tpi > drive > > is perceived by the 48tpi drive as noise, while the signal written by the > > 96tpi is written at a lower level to begin with, since the drive relies > on > > the higher coercivity of the medium to generate a larger signal amplitude > if > > that factor is to come into play at all. > > No, it doesn't rely on the higher coercivity, not when it's writing single > or double density. It only does that for High Density. > First of all, it's NEVER writing or reading single density. Secondly, the "official" certified media for 96tpi use were always claimed to be of greater coercivity than the ones intended for 48tpi use. I've got boxes of them to prove that. .. cancelled checks, too ... The fact that so many people have "gotten away" (including me, by the way) with writing "ordinary" media at the higher track density only serves to confuse the casual observer. As manufacturers found that they could build all drives with the same heads and electronics at lower cost than building two or three different drives for a given applicaition, they started using the same heads in as large a portion of their drives as they could. It was just good business. The media makers began capitalizing on these same economic decisions, and started filling their orders with "better" emulsions, and selling the excess into their lower-grade market. The higher coercivity media were required because the signal sensed from the heads is a function of the head gap area versus the media area and the density of the magnetic field within that area, given that the velocity of the media at the head is a constant. Speeding up the heads increases the signal amplitude at the amplifier input. Now, if there is signal written at the same track width as the maximum the head allows, the signal will be as clean as it can be and maximal. If the signal track is WIDER than the head gap, it is still maximal and still clean, as any crossover effects will be synchronized with the signal, since the head is surrounded, ideally, on both sides, by signal similar to what it is supposed to read. When the head is wider than the signal track, the unerased signal from the wider head which previously wrote the track is still present at the margins of the track as seen by the narrower head gap. However, the head gap is fully loaded with signal bearing media surface and "sees" only what it is supposed to see. The wider head, however, when it "sees" the signal from the narrow head gap also sees the signal from a wide head gap that differs from the desired signal. This is NOISE (unwanted signal) and therefore interferes with the operation of the read/write system. > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Mar 26 20:18:06 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Next Password In-Reply-To: <200003270121.UAA07241@lexington.ioa.net> from "Technoid@cheta.net" at "Mar 26, 2000 08:22:07 pm" Message-ID: <200003270218.VAA06935@bg-tc-ppp860.monmouth.com> > If you have a scsi drive you might try hanging it on a clone and mounting > the partion under linux. You could then edit the passwd file in etc and > gain access by simply deleting the coded password for ROOT. > > I am thinking about the same problem with a SUN box and that is the most > likely I think so far. > > Basicly you need to boot single-user which disables all security and > destroy the root password. The Sun box is easy because you just need to run the install from CD on SunOS 4 or Solaris and mount the disk and edit the password/shadow file. Some machines are more difficult because they don't have something as easy to work from as the Sun miniroot... OpenBSD or NetBSD or FreeBSD often can be used for this as well. AIX is a bit trickier since they don't have the standard UFS/BSD filesystem structures. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From marvin at rain.org Sun Mar 26 20:13:27 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Next Password References: <008501bf9775$98853de0$a5731fd1@default> Message-ID: <38DEC3C7.A7EE80B6@rain.org> You didn't say if it was the hardware password or root password. Assuming the root password is lost, from the NeXT manual: 1) Power off and then back on w/ Power Key 2) During boot process, *immeadiately* after the "testing system" is replaced by the "Loading from Disk", hold down the right Command key and press the key w/ the tilda on it. At this point, you should be in the ROM monitor at the "NeXT>" prompt. If this is a hardware password problem, you will be unable to complete the rest of this procedure. 3) Start up the maching in single-user mode by typing one of the following at the ROM monitor prompt. bod -s (to boot from optical) bsd -s (to boot from the hd) ben -s (to boot from the network) At this point, the system will go through a series of messages ending at the # prompt. 4) At the single-user prompt, start up the system services by typing: sh /etc/rc & 5) To set the root password, type: passwd root You will be prompted twice for the new password. Once set DO NOT GO TO MULTIUSER MODE before step 6. 6) Power the system off and then on again. After the system boots, you can resume normal operation with the new root password. I don't see the procedure for recovery from the hardware process although it mentions that it is a complex process. Good luck. > "John R. Keys Jr." wrote: > > Picked up a next turbocolor station early this week and it powers up but > is password protected, anyone know a quick way around this ?  Thanks in > advance John From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Mar 26 20:42:59 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: VAX GKS Docs available Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000326184259.00938180@mail.bluefeathertech.com> CC'd to port-vax (NetBSD) and Classiccmp... Last call! I have a complete doc set for the VAX GKS software (whatever the heck it is) that's going in RECYCLE if someone doesn't speak up by Tuesday. These are still in their shrink wrap, and they can be yours for $1.00 plus the shipping cost (small box, not very nasty at all). Let me know. Thanks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Mar 26 21:02:50 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Altos machines Message-ID: <76.279951c.2610295a@aol.com> Altos machines came in several generations. 1st Generation Altos 5-ZZ where ZZ was the size of the HD. These were Z80 machines with 5 1/4 inch drives. These are small rectangular desktop boxes. Altos 8XXX-ZZ was a large heavy rectangular desktop box with Z80s or 68000 CPUs. These were generally multiuser machines. ZZ again refers to the size of the 8" HD(10=10 Meg, 12=20 Meg, 14=40 Meg HDs). They used a large custom single board computer the size of the case. The drive controller was a separate half card mounted on top of the SBC. The early 8000s had separate cases for the 8" FD & HD. In later models the drives and cards were integrated in the same case. I think the 68000 processor machines were labeled 68XX-ZZ but it has been too long to be sure. I also think the 68000 machines ran an early version of Xenix. You could get them in versions up to 9 users and a supervisor. 2nd Generation Altos 5XX & 6XX class machines. These looked like squashed hexagons, flat on the bottom and top with two angles on each side. These were medium sized desktop cases, usually beige but often came in custom colors. They carried on the two circuit card configuration. Large SBC with secondary drive controller card. Altos 580 was my favorite. Half height floppy and St 225 20 Meg HD with a Z80 and ran 4 terminals under MPM. They would also run CPM. These also came with FH 10 & 15 Meg HDs Altos 586 came with a 40 meg FHHD and the new 8086 processor and was a 6 user machine. These often ran Xenix and were password protected. While I never had one I think the 686 series machines had the 68000 processor and ran Xenix. These were all squashed Hexagonal shaped machines. I think this line went up to 9XX series numbers with greater amounts of users. 3rd Generation Then there were the Brown floor towers, Altos II & III. These were multiple card towers for large amounts of users. These had 80286 and 80386 processors. I believe there were machines that continued the 680xx processor line too. I only had a couple of these. The Altos II terminal is a rebadged Wyse 100 and the Altos III was a Wyse 50. I think the Altos IV was a Wyse 60 but I am not sure at the moment. Paxton From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 26 21:12:04 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: <005c01bf977c$2da9b9e0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: There are TWO problems. The disk matters. The drive matters. 360K is 300 Oerstedt. 1.2M is 600 Oerstedt. Using the wrong coercivity of diskette, you will NEVER get a good, reliable result. You MIGHT sometimes almost get away with using the worng diskette. SOME idiots will claim that they "always use the wrong diskette". WHY??? BTW, 720K and 1.4M are nominally 600 Oerstedt and 750 Oerstedt, which is close enough that "getting away with" is a MUCH more likely proposition. There are several problems with using the wrong drive. But some times there isn't an adequate alternative. Read/write currrent level: With the exception of some of the preproduction Mitsubishi 4854 and prototype Shugart 475s, all of the 1.2M drives have explicit provision for TWO read/write current levels, explicitly for the purpose of permitting reading, and even writing, 360K diskettes in the 1.2M drives. That is typically NOT where the problem arises. Motor speed: 8" is at 360RPM; 1.2M is at 360RPM 360K is at 300RPM To do 360K in a 1.2M drive typically requires that the controller compensate for the different motor speed by running the 360K data transfer rate at 300Kbps instead of the usual 250K bps. PC controllers can normally handle that. Hooking a 1.2M drive to a non-PC controller that expects an 8" drive will not provide for that, and therefore will not work right for trying to do 360K diskettes. Many current drives have dual spindle speeds (300, 360) Weltec once made a 180RPM drive that would permit a PC 360K controller to do 1.2M diskettes! (reliability was less than ideal) THAT is typically not where the problem lies. Track width: Track width is a problem. Not only with 1.2m drives and 360K diskettes, but also even with 720K/800K 5.25" drives (Shugart 465, Tandon TM100-4, etc.) with 360K disk formats. 360K is about 1/2 mm per track, and the actual track itself is about 1/3mm wide. 1.2M, 720K 5.25", etc. is about 1/4mm per track, and the actual track itself is about 1/6mm wide. When working with a virgin, bulk-erased 300 Oerstedt diskette, the 1.2m (or 720K 5.25") drive CAN produce a diskette using every other track, that is ALMOST acceptable. It will have tracks that are only 1/6mm wide, but properly spaced at 1/2mm increments. You normally CAN get away with that, unless/until: if you EVER write to THAT diskette with a 360K drive, even "just erasing a file", you will have replaced that 1/6mm wide sector with a 1/3mm wide sector. From that point on, the diskette should NOT ever be written to with the 1.2m drive, unless/until it has been bulk-erased and formatted again. A 96TPI drive can NOT do an acceptable job of REformatting or REwriting over a 1/3mm wide track! Some people, using SOME drives have found that it is ALMOST good enough, and can sometimes get away with it. But that's like trying to use MY car at 100 mph. It just isn't built to do it RIGHT. Therefore, it IS possible to do an emergency transfer diskette from 1.2M to 360K, using a 300 Oerstedt diskette. But repeated back and forth requires careful attention to detail to avoid ever trying to rewrite a 1/3mm wide track with the 1.2M drive. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Mar 26 21:58:59 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: HP Apollo/9000s References: <20000316010308.FXAU4547.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: <00e701bf97a3$96077dc0$5ae993c3@proteus> Hi Mike, > Actually I was impressed it looks like a LOT of activity is >going on.... Yes, I went and had another look at the FAQ site after seeing this message. Must've been a problem with my browser cache as this time I found a much updated FAQ.... >....I found mailing lists.... Could you let me have the details plese? > HP is doing a ONE TIME free update to older 9000 series >computers (they say 9000/800, but I don't know) to current >10.20 software.... I understand that some people with 400/700 series machines have been able to get the (or rather "an") upgrade too. >....This offer ends on April 30th 2000, so don't drag your >feet if interested.... Thanks, I wasn't aware there was a time limit associated with this offer. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Mar 26 20:28:57 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: FW: First come first served: VAX 11/750 (UK) References: <200003252156.QAA08910@world.std.com> <025e01bf9775$a998e280$329893c3@proteus> Message-ID: <00e401bf97a3$91e79540$5ae993c3@proteus> > Hi Pete.... Ooops, that was meant to be a private email.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Mar 26 22:04:03 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Altos machines References: <000325073344.22400504@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <00e801bf97a3$96c01f60$5ae993c3@proteus> Hi, > If you can wait a day or two, a fellow classiccmper and I are >going to be inventorying the Altos machines.... >....there may be some documentation (we've several binders full >of it) on your machine. Thanks, if you manage to find out ANYTHING do let me know. BTW That list of machines you have is interesting. If you weren't the other side of the planet to me I'd be after one of the 68K boxes.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Mar 26 22:08:26 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Altos machines References: Message-ID: <00e901bf97a3$97912b00$5ae993c3@proteus> Hi, > It seems to me the one we have is a very dirty looking brown >also, with strange angles on the case that give it a sort of >Flash Gordon feeling. I like it.... :-)) Yeah, that kind of describes the machine I saw....it might have been beige once upon a time.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Mar 26 21:53:36 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: Message-ID: <00e601bf97a3$939bfc00$5ae993c3@proteus> Hi Tony, >>....reason I seem to recall both cassette recorders attaching >>to seperate DIN sockets on the back of the machine...? > > Then your 380Z was modified... Quite possibly, one of the technicians from the science dept was always fiddling with it until they got their own machines. Either that or I'm remembering incorrectly (quite probable). > 2 Recorder 1 motor control (TTL level) > 7 Recorder 2 motor control (TTL level). Woah, back up there....TTL level??? Our machine *MUST* have been modified then (or been of an early design) since we used an unmodified cassette recorder with it....it was a silver Hitachi unit and was connected via a DIN connector rather than MIC/EAR (we had to plug a special plug into the EAR socket to mute the speaker). No external boxes in sight, motor control seemed to be via a relay inside the machine? >....Was one recorder always used for recording and the other >for playback? I *THINK* on our setup the "first" recorder could both record and playback data and the "second" was playback only. But as I said before, my memory is hazy. >....Makes a change from 'no user serviceable parts inside' ;-) It's not something you see much nowadays is it.... >> I *THINK* I recall them remarking how similar the bus was to >>the SS-50 bus, BICBW. > > It's called the Z50 bus in the manual. It doesn't look very >similar to SS50 to me... I'm probably confusing it with another article in the same magazine then - might've been a review of an "Explorer 85" or some such machine. > Hmmm... Look, I manage to lose large micros and even the odd >small mini here, OK :-) Fair enough, the biggest thing I've "lost" so far is my DECMate II....I know it's in a box around here somewhere.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Mar 26 21:06:20 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: Message-ID: <00e501bf97a3$92b0ffc0$5ae993c3@proteus> Hi Tony, >> Would I be right in assuming that the machines with SA400s >>had double sided drives and the ones with Canon drives were >>single sided? > > Not always. All the machines at my school (which were 2 of >each sort IIRC) had double sided drives.... Ah well, another otherwise fine theory shot down in flames.... :-) >> I wonder if that's the same machine I spotted? The chap who >>had it for sale ended up taking it home.... > > No idea, of course. > > It came with a keyboard.... >....Oh, and a few disks and a pile of manuals. No, the one I spotted had no keyboard, software or manuals. So that makes at least two "spotted in the wild".... > Inside it has 64K RAM (see my other message), the hires card, >minidisk controller and bus terminator. It has all the standard >interfaces you'd expect from those (user port, SIO-4) and the >colour output option as well. *NICE* setup. Only one of our machines had the hires card (funnily enough the one with the "free" RAM card) and it was darn useful.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Mar 26 22:12:46 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: Altos machines References: <000901bf9603$61af2600$92e893c3@proteus> <001101bf9621$fc630c20$7e483cd1@winbook> <025f01bf9775$aabdda80$329893c3@proteus> <001501bf977a$17e5be80$76483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: <00ea01bf97a3$99cbd8c0$5ae993c3@proteus> Hi, >....somewhat narrower than "rack-width" and about 7" tall. >They're plastic boxes with a beige.... No, this thing was designed as a deskside tower - looked DARN heavy too. I was going to snap it up, the guy only wanted 5 pounds for it. Then my girlfriend got involved.... > They're quite weighty. By that I mean absolutely too heavy >to ship across the planet. Of that I have no doubt! :-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 27 00:24:14 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:24 2005 Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? References: Message-ID: <000b01bf97b5$2c6d5260$39483cd1@winbook> I'm in agreement, pretty much with what's been said here. Please see embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2000 8:12 PM Subject: Re: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? > There are TWO problems. > > The disk matters. > The drive matters. > > 360K is 300 Oerstedt. 1.2M is 600 Oerstedt. Yes, but, given that the goal is to write a 48TPI 360K diskette, the coercivity will be the same, since the media are the same. It's worth considering that toward the "maturity" of the 5.25" technology, the media available throughtout the market were really pretty much the same, and the drives were pretty similar too, except for the differences essential to maintaining their functionality. After the "new" had worn off the 1.2MB technology, drive makers started migrating the new technology onto the "standard" line of products because they could sell more. Once production was in full swing it was a better practice to put the same electronics and heads onto all their drives instead of maintaining various technologies. Each step of the way created confusion in the market. Eventually the technology was abaondoned for the superior 3.5" drives. Nevertheless, the media need not be considered for purposes of THIS discussion because the target medium is the 300-Oerstedt 48TPI 5.25" diskette. The issue was that the old 48TPI disk drive had trouble reading the 48TPI diskette written on a 1.2MB 96TPI drive. The reason is not the media, it's the drive. Why? It's because the medium is the same physical diskette. It cancels out of the equation. > Using the wrong coercivity of diskette, you will NEVER get a good, > reliable result. You MIGHT sometimes almost get away with using the > worng diskette. SOME idiots will claim that they "always use the wrong > diskette". WHY??? There are folks who enjoy claiming that their risky way of doing things is better than paying the 10% extra for the correct product. > BTW, 720K and 1.4M are nominally 600 Oerstedt and 750 Oerstedt, which is > close enough that "getting away with" is a MUCH more likely proposition. > Let's try to keep the 3.5" diskettes out of the picture for now. The 720K diskettes I meant were the 80-track 5.25" drives of the pre-PC/AT days. These were quite popular in the late '70's-early '80's, and were occasionally used with PC's, though they required a special driver be loaded. I once made the hole in a few 720K diskettes because I needed the media and felt I could get by. It worked, but it wasn't long before the optical sensors in the early 3-1/2" drives gave way to the mechanical feelers, and the holes had to be square. That wasn't very convenient, and, by the way, > > There are several problems with using the wrong drive. But some times > there isn't an adequate alternative. > > Read/write currrent level: > With the exception of some of the preproduction Mitsubishi 4854 and > prototype Shugart 475s, all of the 1.2M drives have explicit provision for > TWO read/write current levels, explicitly for the purpose of permitting > reading, and even writing, 360K diskettes in the 1.2M drives. That is > typically NOT where the problem arises. > > Motor speed: > 8" is at 360RPM; 1.2M is at 360RPM 360K is at 300RPM > To do 360K in a 1.2M drive typically requires that the controller Some of the controllers switched the data rate and in other cases the drive switched speed. > compensate for the different motor speed by running the 360K data transfer > rate at 300Kbps instead of the usual 250K bps. PC controllers can > normally handle that. Hooking a 1.2M drive to a non-PC controller that > expects an 8" drive will not provide for that, and therefore will not work > right for trying to do 360K diskettes. > Many current drives have dual spindle speeds (300, 360) > Weltec once made a 180RPM drive that would permit a PC 360K controller to > do 1.2M diskettes! (reliability was less than ideal) > THAT is typically not where the problem lies. > > Track width: > Track width is a problem. Not only with 1.2m drives and 360K diskettes, > but also even with 720K/800K 5.25" drives (Shugart 465, Tandon TM100-4, > etc.) with 360K disk formats. > 360K is about 1/2 mm per track, and the actual track itself is about 1/3mm > wide. > 1.2M, 720K 5.25", etc. is about 1/4mm per track, and the actual track > itself is about 1/6mm wide. > > When working with a virgin, bulk-erased 300 Oerstedt diskette, the 1.2m > (or 720K 5.25") drive CAN produce a diskette using every other track, that > is ALMOST acceptable. It will have tracks that are only 1/6mm wide, but > properly spaced at 1/2mm increments. You normally CAN get away with that, > unless/until: > if you EVER write to THAT diskette with a 360K drive, even "just erasing a > file", you will have replaced that 1/6mm wide sector with a 1/3mm wide > sector. From that point on, the diskette should NOT ever be written to > with the 1.2m drive, unless/until it has been bulk-erased and formatted > again. > > A 96TPI drive can NOT do an acceptable job of REformatting or REwriting > over a 1/3mm wide track! Some people, using SOME drives have found that > it is ALMOST good enough, and can sometimes get away with it. But that's > like trying to use MY car at 100 mph. It just isn't built to do it RIGHT. > > Therefore, it IS possible to do an emergency transfer diskette from 1.2M > to 360K, using a 300 Oerstedt diskette. But repeated back and forth > requires careful attention to detail to avoid ever trying to rewrite a > 1/3mm wide track with the 1.2M drive. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 27 00:48:28 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Denver Area 6502-Group software References: <000b01bf97b5$2c6d5260$39483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: <002801bf97b8$75ee6e80$39483cd1@winbook> Wonder of wonders, I've found a printout of the manual and source code of the old 6502-group FOCAL interpreter, written by "Wayne Wall and friends" at the Colorado School of Mines. It will be a while before I'm prepared to scan the things, but if someone's in a hurry, I can send the printout if THEY will scan the things, the OCR them and reconstruct the manual as a real manual and the assembler listing as a text file with proper formatting. I'm pretty quick with the editor and not so ambitious with tedious jobs like scanning . . . Dick From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Mar 27 02:25:14 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: VAX GKS Docs available Message-ID: <200003270825.DAA32359@dbit.dbit.com> >I have a complete doc set for the VAX GKS software (whatever >the heck it is) Graphics Kernel System, maybe? Sounds dimly familiar from the Core graphics library for the Pro, unless I'm confusing it with something else. John Wilson D Bit From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Mar 27 02:59:42 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: HP Apollo/9000s In-Reply-To: <00e701bf97a3$96077dc0$5ae993c3@proteus> References: <20000316010308.FXAU4547.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: >Hi Mike, > > > Actually I was impressed it looks like a LOT of activity is > >going on.... > >Yes, I went and had another look at the FAQ site after seeing this message. >Must've been a problem with my browser cache as this time I found a much >updated FAQ.... > > >....I found mailing lists.... > >Could you let me have the details plese? I didn't keep the info, but if you don't mind waiting when I get interested in the Apollo stuff again I will pass on what I find. No time to think about it right now, so I didn't bookmark etc. Cheers, Mike Ford From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Mon Mar 27 08:23:00 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: PDP11/23 More dumb questions Message-ID: <016501bf97f7$f5494800$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> Thanks all for the advice on the BA23 110/230v power switching. I've done that now and powered it up. I have a VT220 terminal that is functional as far as I know and connected to a random serial connector on the PDP, one of 6. Unfortunately I know nothing at all about PDP's or VT's. Anyway, I start the VT220 before the PDP and it gives a message VT220 Ready. I power up the PDP and basically get nothing at all. The only sequence that gets any response is hitting the halt button. The terminal then says: 165262 @ When I hit the Restart button after that nothing happens for about 2 minutes. Then an "&" prompt appears. Nothing I type in gets any response after that. Typing "help" gets no response. The machine is in a BA23 case and was a PDP11/23 I think, but has a PDP11/73 CPU upgrade. There is a full height ST506 hard drive reputed to be 30Mb in size, which spins and makes all the right noises. It was last operational about 5 years ago and was part of a Cybermation laser cutting system. I have no idea what OS would have been installed. I have no docs or media. Any suggestions? Thanks, Hans From at258 at osfn.org Mon Mar 27 07:54:48 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Altos machines In-Reply-To: <00e901bf97a3$97912b00$5ae993c3@proteus> Message-ID: Yes, I think it may have been multiple shades of brown, at least one of which looked sort of ICL. On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Peter Pachla wrote: > Hi, > > > It seems to me the one we have is a very dirty looking brown > >also, with strange angles on the case that give it a sort of > >Flash Gordon feeling. > > I like it.... :-)) > > Yeah, that kind of describes the machine I saw....it might have been beige > once upon a time.... > > > TTFN - Pete. > > -- > Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. > Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > > peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk > -- > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Mar 27 08:22:04 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: PDP11/23 More dumb questions Message-ID: <000327092204.224006cc@trailing-edge.com> >Anyway, I start the VT220 before the PDP and it gives a message VT220 Ready. >I power up the PDP and basically get nothing at all. The only sequence that >gets any response is hitting the halt button. The terminal then says: >165262 >@ >When I hit the Restart button after that nothing happens for about 2 >minutes. >Then an "&" prompt appears. >Nothing I type in gets any response after that. Typing "help" gets no >response. The "165262 @" prompting is from ODT. ODT is a very simplistic monitor that lets you modify memory and registers and start or single-step through instructions in memory. 165000 is a common (but not the most common) address to put a ROM'ed bootstrap at. I'm guessing that when you halted it it was either doing the self-test or waiting for an external device to come ready. The "&" prompt I'm not so sure about. It's possible that this is a prompt from the bootstrap monitor (some Emulex bootstraps will say that) or maybe it's from the OS/embedded application. >The machine is in a BA23 case and was a PDP11/23 I think, but has a PDP11/73 >CPU upgrade. There is a full height ST506 hard drive reputed to be 30Mb in >size, which spins and makes all the right noises. >Any suggestions? What would help the most of all is an inventory of cards in the backplane. If they're DEC cards they'll have a "Mxxxx" number on the handle. Third party cards you'll probably have to pull to identify. Also tell us the exact position of each card in the backplane, and what cards are cabled to what drives. I suspect from the less-than-perfectly-standard bootstrap address of 165000 that you've got a third-party controller in there with on-board bootstrap, though of course there an infinite number of permutations that things could have been set up for! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Mar 27 08:23:07 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Altos machines Message-ID: <000327092307.224006cc@trailing-edge.com> > > If you can wait a day or two, a fellow classiccmper and I are > >going to be inventorying the Altos machines.... > >....there may be some documentation (we've several binders full > >of it) on your machine. >Thanks, if you manage to find out ANYTHING do let me know. Sorry, nothing about the machine that you had described, though we did find some Altos 5-series and 8000-series binders. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mbg at world.std.com Mon Mar 27 08:33:31 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: BA23 Power Supply Message-ID: <200003271433.JAA21322@world.std.com> >On many of the operating systems, you don't have to do a SYSGEN - just >tweak a number in the configuration word and viola, it's now a 50Hz >machine. > >For an RT-11 machine, in particular, you can tweak this on a running >system if you wish: [... 50hz.mac deleted ...] Tim - I'm surprised at you... simply setting this bit is *not* sufficient. The bit is set based on assembly parameters. Those parameters also set the values for ticks/day based on 50 and 60 hz. Those values are patched at boot time to reflect what the system thinks the clock is supposed to be (what it was genned for). Without the other counters set correctly, date rollover won't work at all correctly... since it will be waiting for sufficient clock ticks at the 60hz rate to have gone by before it bumps the clock. I seem to recall that there is another gotcha to this, but haven't yet found it in the sources... Bottom line is that the config bits are supposed to be read, not written, as they indicate what the system was built for or what it has determined (via probe) to be running on... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Mar 27 10:42:42 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <20000326023549.28803.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <20000324203506.A23874@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:35:06 -0500) Message-ID: <200003271443.e2REhgY23562@mail2.siemens.de> > John Wilson wrote: > > I think it's how they load the flash drive in the first > > place. > Which means that they can remove the connector and use a bed-of-nails sort > of device instead. > > and a socket for > > the amazingly tiny SMT flash ROM itself would be pretty expensive... > Actually, SSOP and TSOP production sockets can be had for under $1. Well, in a USD 99,- machine even 10 cents are a thing worth to be considered. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Mar 27 10:42:42 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <200003242043.PAA22852@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <200003271443.e2REhgY23567@mail2.siemens.de> Date sent: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:43:47 -0500 From: John Wilson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: iOpener Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > OK, I got a 6.4 GB laptop drive hooked up and right now the iOpener is running > DOS/BATCH V10-01A on an emulated PDP-11/40+RK05 system. I love it!!! > > BTW the CPU seems to be 200 MHz, not 180 MHz. But it still gets only about > 80 BogoMIPS, pretty slow. First of all, BogoMIPS are exactly what they are named: Bogus. Second, the is not realy related to the real world speed. The WinChip C6 is more or less like a P133-200 MMX, depending on the Task, while the WinChip2 acts more like a P200-266, especialy when applications are using the 3DNow! operations. I have a WinChip2 system running at 266 MHz and it performs well enough. I just replaced the old P133 by a WinChip2. With DirectX and the acording 3DNow! enabeled drivers even some new games do run at acceptable speed. The WinChip2 is for old Pentium systems what the AMD 5x86 is for 486 boxes - the last big push. BTW, if the CPU used is a C6, an upgrade to a WinChip2 is a real good ise - costs avbout 50 USD, and gives about 50% more performance - see http://www.heise.de/ct/98/23/030/s030b2.jpg Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 27 10:56:46 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Altos machines References: <000327092307.224006cc@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <001101bf980d$708f4ea0$4f483cd1@winbook> Gee! . . . real documents! . . . That's more than I ever expected to encounter. Please let me know if any of the docs you see relate to the model 586. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 7:23 AM Subject: Re: Altos machines > > > If you can wait a day or two, a fellow classiccmper and I are > > >going to be inventorying the Altos machines.... > > >....there may be some documentation (we've several binders full > > >of it) on your machine. > > >Thanks, if you manage to find out ANYTHING do let me know. > > Sorry, nothing about the machine that you had described, though we > did find some Altos 5-series and 8000-series binders. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 27 12:02:16 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: <000b01bf97b5$2c6d5260$39483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Mar 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I'm in agreement, pretty much with what's been said here. Please see > embedded comments below. > Yes, but, given that the goal is to write a 48TPI 360K diskette, the > coercivity will be the same, since the media are the same. It's worth Are you saying that a 300 Oerstedt diskette is the SAME as a 600 Oerstedt diskette?? Is TRI-X camera film the same as Pan-X, also? > target medium is the 300-Oerstedt 48TPI 5.25" diskette. The issue was that > the old 48TPI disk drive had trouble reading the 48TPI diskette written on a > 1.2MB 96TPI drive. The reason is not the media, it's the drive. Why? > It's because the medium is the same physical diskette. It cancels out of > the equation. The symptoms described (inability to read a diskette written in a 1.2M drive, supposedly as a 360K) match TWO possibilities: 1) failure to bulk-erase and format in the 1.2M, when the diskette had residual 1/3mm wide tracks. 2) use of a 600 Oerstedt diskette when trying to create a 360K. Either (OR BOTH!) of those mistakes would give the symptoms described. I fail to see how the media could be "cancels out of the equation". The magnetic coercivity of the diskette would not magically be altered into the correct one by any action of the drive. Setting the ASA dial on the camera to 400 does NOT convert Pan-X film into TRI-X. > There are folks who enjoy claiming that their risky way of doing things is > better than paying the 10% extra for the correct product. Agreed > Let's try to keep the 3.5" diskettes out of the picture for now. The 720K Mentioned simply because: the gap in coercivity of the different 5.25" diskettes is SIGNIFICANT. The gap in coercivity of the different 3.5" diskettes is much less. Therefore any success in using wrong diskettes in 3.5" should not be extrapolated to apply to 5.25" > Some of the controllers switched the data rate and in other cases the drive > switched speed. Because it is on topic for collectors: The original IBM AT switched data transfer rate. Many later went for dual spindle speed. Both methods seemed to work OK. The Weltec 250Kbps/180RPM 1.2M was trying to stretch things a little too far. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 27 12:04:14 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <00e501bf97a3$92b0ffc0$5ae993c3@proteus> Message-ID: > >> Would I be right in assuming that the machines with SA400s > >>had double sided drives and the ones with Canon drives were > >>single sided? I know NOTHING about the machine being described. But EVERY Shugart SA400 that I've ever seen or heard about was single sided. The double sided drives had different model numbers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Mon Mar 27 12:06:38 2000 From: dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: VAX GKS Docs available In-Reply-To: <200003270825.DAA32359@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Mar 27, 2000 03:25:14 AM Message-ID: <200003271806.NAA22607@bcr.uwaterloo.ca> John Wilson wrote: > > >I have a complete doc set for the VAX GKS software (whatever > >the heck it is) > > Graphics Kernel System, maybe? Perhaps. There was WATCOM GKS for DOS and QNX (the Cemcorp/Burroughs/Unisys version) and Waterloo PORT might have had it too--I can't remember. -- David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/ University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Mon Mar 27 12:14:48 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: VAX GKS Docs available In-Reply-To: <200003270825.DAA32359@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "Mar 27, 2000 03:25:14 am" Message-ID: <20000327181501Z433931-14456+134@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > >I have a complete doc set for the VAX GKS software (whatever > >the heck it is) > > Graphics Kernel System, maybe? Sounds dimly familiar from the Core > graphics library for the Pro, unless I'm confusing it with something else. > GKS is a 2D graphics package developed in the late 1970s. It is a vector based package, and based on display lists. It was later replaced by PHIGS, which is a 3D grapics package. PHIGS and Core have similar functionality, but are quite different in their internal details. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From elvey at hal.com Mon Mar 27 12:28:01 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Nicolet NIC-80 or NIC-1080 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200003271828.KAA25519@civic.hal.com> Hi I am looking for anyone with any info on either of these machines. Specifically, I am looking for some software called DEMON/F. If anyone has one of these rare mini's, I'd also like to get in touch with you, even if you don't have any software. Dwight From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Mar 27 13:39:13 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <200003271443.e2REhgY23567@mail2.siemens.de>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 04:43:42PM +0000 References: <200003242043.PAA22852@dbit.dbit.com> <200003271443.e2REhgY23567@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <20000327143913.A1683@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 04:43:42PM +0000, Hans Franke wrote: > > BTW the CPU seems to be 200 MHz, not 180 MHz. But it still gets only about > > 80 BogoMIPS, pretty slow. > > First of all, BogoMIPS are exactly what they are named: Bogus. > Second, the is not realy related to the real world speed. Well obviously, but just because the BogoMIPS numbers aren't proportional to the exact speed, doesn't mean they don't still mean *something* about the relationship. The K6 system I'm typing this on gets 600 BogoMIPs and is low-end by today's standards, and whether or not it's actually 2/15 the speed, the Winchip is a whole bunch slower. That's all I meant. But the cool thing about the machine is that it works at all, it's not supposed to be fast. Now that I've cut holes in the case and RFI shield so I can reassemble it with the disk hanging out the back (for easy swapping), the screen has developed a blue line up the middle, which is kind of a bummer. I hope I just pinched a cable or the HDD connector is flexing the mobo due to slight interference with the heat sink, it'll be a shame if the line is here to stay. The iOpener keyboard is kind of cute, the keys across the top have crazy decals but apparently they really are F1-F12 as usual. And the Tek 4105 style puck in the upper right corner seems to emulate a PS/2 mouse (the two rubber buttons on the left are the mouse buttons), so it works fine with Linux using the usual PS/2 driver. Even the autorepeat rate can be programmed as usual, it really seems like the whole machine is surprisingly PC-compatible, considering it's running custom software and the hardware could have been anything. Has anyone heard anything about how to program those two LEDs on the top of the screen (i.e., you've-got-mail and phone-line-in-use)? I'd love to use them for a NULJOB display... :-) John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Mar 27 13:43:43 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: ; from cisin@xenosoft.com on Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 10:02:16AM -0800 References: <000b01bf97b5$2c6d5260$39483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: <20000327144343.B1683@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 10:02:16AM -0800, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Sun, 26 Mar 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I'm in agreement, pretty much with what's been said here. Please see > > embedded comments below. > > Yes, but, given that the goal is to write a 48TPI 360K diskette, the > > coercivity will be the same, since the media are the same. It's worth > > Are you saying that a 300 Oerstedt diskette is the SAME as a 600 Oerstedt > diskette?? Is TRI-X camera film the same as Pan-X, also? I really think you guys are just miscommunicating. I too was surprised at Dick's comment that you can use 360 KB and 1.2 MB disks interchangeably, since I know it's not true. But I really don't think he meant it, especially since his posts since then have concentrated on track width problems rather than the bit rate within the track. John Wilson D Bit From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Mar 27 15:41:16 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <20000327143913.A1683@dbit.dbit.com> References: <200003271443.e2REhgY23567@mail2.siemens.de>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 04:43:42PM +0000 Message-ID: <200003271942.e2RJgHT17841@mail2.siemens.de> > On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 04:43:42PM +0000, Hans Franke wrote: > > > BTW the CPU seems to be 200 MHz, not 180 MHz. But it still gets only about > > > 80 BogoMIPS, pretty slow. > > First of all, BogoMIPS are exactly what they are named: Bogus. > > Second, the is not realy related to the real world speed. > Well obviously, but just because the BogoMIPS numbers aren't proportional > to the exact speed, doesn't mean they don't still mean *something* about > the relationship. The K6 system I'm typing this on gets 600 BogoMIPs and > is low-end by today's standards, and whether or not it's actually 2/15 the > speed, the Winchip is a whole bunch slower. That's all I meant. Well, lets face it, the BogoMIPS is like the infamous Norton SI. worthless when comparing speeds. Take a look at the sources, and you'll see that is doesn't do any good. BTW: can you please check if it's a C6 or a WinChip2 inside you machine ? > The iOpener keyboard is kind of cute, the keys across the top have crazy decals > but apparently they really are F1-F12 as usual. I hope someone is comeing up with replacement key caps (especialy for the German Umlauts :) Servus Hans -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 27 12:57:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: <000701bf9789$b2bce1e0$6c483cd1@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 26, 0 06:13:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 6440 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000327/a185747d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 27 13:17:27 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <00e501bf97a3$92b0ffc0$5ae993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Mar 27, 0 04:06:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1966 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000327/64e10e9d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 27 13:10:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: <002301bf978f$21e904e0$6c483cd1@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 26, 0 06:52:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5224 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000327/8b3c7879/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 27 13:24:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <00e601bf97a3$939bfc00$5ae993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Mar 27, 0 04:53:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2039 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000327/2527cd02/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 27 13:38:24 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: <000b01bf97b5$2c6d5260$39483cd1@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 26, 0 11:24:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4713 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000327/8eb29277/attachment.ksh From jlewczyk at his.com Mon Mar 27 14:15:19 2000 From: jlewczyk at his.com (John Lewczyk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Pdp-11 available in Baltimore, MD, USA area In-Reply-To: <200003271828.KAA25519@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <000001bf9829$2c6daed0$013da8c0@Corellian> The Baltimore Science Fiction Society was at the Hamfest in Timonium, MD this past weekend and they had a sign up description a working PDP-11/73 and VT220 terminal that they had available. I told them I'd pass the word on to interested parties. Interested? phone: 410-563-2737 email: bsfs@bsfs.org web: http://www.bsfs.org http://www.balticon.org John http://www.his.com/~jlewczyk/mark8.html - "Mark 8 Minicomputer" From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 27 13:20:52 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <200003271443.e2REhgY23562@mail2.siemens.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) References: <20000324203506.A23874@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:35:06 -0500) <200003271443.e2REhgY23562@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <20000327192052.5735.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Well, in a USD 99,- machine even 10 cents are a thing > worth to be considered. The point was that if it's needed for manufacturability, a sub-$.50 production TSOP socket may be cheaper than a sub-$1 IDE header. If they can eliminate both, that's even better. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Mar 27 13:23:57 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <20000327143913.A1683@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:39:13 -0500) References: <200003242043.PAA22852@dbit.dbit.com> <200003271443.e2REhgY23567@mail2.siemens.de> <20000327143913.A1683@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000327192357.5799.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Well obviously, but just because the BogoMIPS numbers aren't proportional > to the exact speed, doesn't mean they don't still mean *something* about > the relationship. The K6 system I'm typing this on gets 600 BogoMIPs and > is low-end by today's standards, and whether or not it's actually 2/15 the > speed, the Winchip is a whole bunch slower. That's all I meant. The problem with that reasoning is that BogoMIPS aren't an absolute scale of *anything*. There's a different "correction factor" that gets used to scale the number depending on what kind of processor the kernel thinks it's running on. Given only two BogoMIPS numbers from two systems, it's not even possible to infer which processor is faster to run the BogoMIPS loop. From at258 at osfn.org Mon Mar 27 14:25:04 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Altos In-Reply-To: <20000327181501Z433931-14456+134@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: I checked out our Altos, and the old one is a 580-10A, #43948. Apparently they made a lot of these little devils. M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 27 14:42:22 2000 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: FW: First come first served: VAX 11/750 (UK) In-Reply-To: <025e01bf9775$a998e280$329893c3@proteus> References: <200003252156.QAA08910@world.std.com> <025e01bf9775$a998e280$329893c3@proteus> Message-ID: In article <025e01bf9775$a998e280$329893c3@proteus>, Peter Pachla writes >Hi Pete, > > > That's what I like to hear, I think I can get away with that :). > >Pete, that's the machine I told you I'd had to turn down due to lack of >space when we spoke on the 'phone recently. > >It's BIG, 4 or 5 40" cabinets (disc drives and tape drive) and a 60" cabinet >(tape drive)....good luck. > > Ah, a little bigger than just the processor unit then? Never mind, I have got permission from Fiona to ask for it so if I get it I will find room somewhere. I'll just tell her it grew up ;-) >BTW The processor has a PSU fault. > I dare say I can persuade someone on the list to help with that if I get it. -- Regards Pete From andy.sporner at networkengines.com Mon Mar 27 14:52:04 2000 From: andy.sporner at networkengines.com (Andy Sporner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Altos Message-ID: <8D18C4F9CBA1D311900F00A0C990C97F67C77A@neiterm.networkengines.com> I had a 2086 and THAT was a cool machine (also a way to find an RD-54--because it was the same drive!). > > I checked out our Altos, and the old one is a 580-10A, > #43948. Apparently > they made a lot of these little devils. > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > From sipke at wxs.nl Mon Mar 27 14:53:50 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? References: Message-ID: <010001bf982e$8e871c00$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Head on ! Tony. I tried it but could'nt find the right words Thanx Sipke ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 8:57 PM Subject: Re: Parallel port hard drives? > > So, to sum up : > > HD disks formated for anything other than 1.2Mbytes (no matter what > drive) -> doesn't work properly. > > Bulk-erased DD disks formatted in a 96 tpi drive (including a 1.2M drive > set to use 'normal' disks), but with only 40 cylinders (every alternate > cylinder of such a drive) and then written in such a drive should be > readable in a 48 tpi drive (assuming a correctly set up drive and good > disks, since the read amplitude _is_ lower). They will also (obviously) > be readable in 96tpi drives. > > Such disks then written in the 48tpi drive should be readable on both 48 > tpi and 96 tpi drives. > > Such disks, written on 48 tpi drives (including being formatted on 48 tpi > drives) and then written on a 96 tpi drive (including being reformatted > on such a drive) will _not_ be read reliably on 48 tpi drives. > > The is one last point to add to the confusion. Towards the end of the > common use of 5.25" drives, some manufacturers were putting the same > (narrow) heads in both 360K and 1.2Mbyte drives. Such '360K' drives would > write narrow tracks, and would cause no end of problems for people who > took a 360K disk formatted on a 'real' 48tpi drive (wide head), wrote > some files to it with the 'narrow head drive) and then took it back to > a drive with the wider head. Don't ask how I found this out... > > -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 27 15:24:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Mar 27, 0 10:04:14 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1188 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000327/60575fbb/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 27 16:09:40 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? References: Message-ID: <000d01bf9839$26856f20$6e483cd1@winbook> Please see embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 12:38 PM Subject: Re: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? > > > There are TWO problems. > > > > > > The disk matters. > > > The drive matters. > > > > > > 360K is 300 Oerstedt. 1.2M is 600 Oerstedt. > > > > Yes, but, given that the goal is to write a 48TPI 360K diskette, the > > coercivity will be the same, since the media are the same. It's worth > > Are you trying to say that the coercivity of the disk (which is a > physical property of said disk) will somehow magically change when you > try to write a 360K format to it? If not, what are you saying? > > > considering that toward the "maturity" of the 5.25" technology, the media > > available throughtout the market were really pretty much the same, and the > > Right up until the end, reputable disk manuafacturers put different media > into 360K and 1.2M disks. Period. > > > drives were pretty similar too, except for the differences essential to > > maintaining their functionality. After the "new" had worn off the 1.2MB > > These 'differences' included things like the coercivity of the disks and > the head width in the drives. > > > Each step of the way created confusion in the market. Eventually the > > technology was abaondoned for the superior 3.5" drives. Nevertheless, the > > Actually, there's a nasty design defect in 3.5" disks. The side of the > shutter nearest the spindle is not clamped together in any way, and can > spring apart. This produces a disk that will slip into a drive OK but > which won't come out again (think of a standard locking barb). To get it > out involves dismantling the drive. I've had to sort this little mess out > a few times... > > > media need not be considered for purposes of THIS discussion because the > > target medium is the 300-Oerstedt 48TPI 5.25" diskette. The issue was that > > the old 48TPI disk drive had trouble reading the 48TPI diskette written on a > > 1.2MB 96TPI drive. The reason is not the media, it's the drive. Why? > > It's because the medium is the same physical diskette. It cancels out of > > the equation. > > Oh, OK. If you're using a genuine 360K disk, then there is, indeed, no > problem with the disk (because it's the right one to use). But somebody > was claiming you could format a '1.2M' disk in a 1.2Mdrive with a 360K > format and then expect it to be reliably read by a 360K drive. That, in > my experience, doesn't work. Most of the time it won't even format > properly (the 1.2Mbyte drive being set to use a lower write current as I > mentioned a couple of messages back). > That was my point. The way this thread got to this topic was that someone was trying to write a 360 KB diskette witha 1.2MB drive and expected an old Commodore (?) to read it. While it's quite possible, I doubt one would call it likely. > > > > > Using the wrong coercivity of diskette, you will NEVER get a good, > > > reliable result. You MIGHT sometimes almost get away with using the > > > worng diskette. SOME idiots will claim that they "always use the wrong > > > diskette". WHY??? > > > > There are folks who enjoy claiming that their risky way of doing things is > > better than paying the 10% extra for the correct product. > > Agreed! These people are fools. Period. > > My data is worth a lot more than the cost of _any_ floppy disk you care > to name. It is _always_ worth using the best disks available (which means > also using the _correct_ disk ). > > > > > > BTW, 720K and 1.4M are nominally 600 Oerstedt and 750 Oerstedt, which is > > > close enough that "getting away with" is a MUCH more likely proposition. > > > > > Let's try to keep the 3.5" diskettes out of the picture for now. The 720K > > diskettes I meant were the 80-track 5.25" drives of the pre-PC/AT days. > > These were quite popular in the late '70's-early '80's, and were > > occasionally used with PC's, though they required a special driver be > > Actually, it was the same software (be it part of the bios or a separate > driver) that was used with 720K 3.5" disks. > > > loaded. I once made the hole in a few 720K diskettes because I needed the > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Presumably you're now talking about 3.5" disks. > Yes. I was disappointed with the results, however. > > > media and felt I could get by. It worked, but it wasn't long before the > > optical sensors in the early 3-1/2" drives gave way to the mechanical > > feelers, and the holes had to be square. That wasn't very convenient, and, > > by the way, > > Every 3.5" drive I have ever worked on uses mechanical sensors for write > protect, high density detect, and disk inserted. I have never seen > optical sensors, not even on the old Sony units [1]. In any case the > mechanical sensor is nearly always a thin 'pin' that goes through the > middle of the hole. It certainly doesn't check that it's a square hole. > > [1] These being the full-height 600rpm units.... These drives did use > optical sensors -- slotted optoswitches on the spindle motor PCB. But > they were operated by spring-loaded plastic pieces that carried 'pins' > that went through the holes in the disk. So the actual interface between > the disk and the sensors was still a mechanical pin. > > -tony > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Mar 27 18:30:12 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Parallel port hard drives?" (Mar 27, 19:57) References: Message-ID: <10003280130.ZM18052@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 27, 19:57, Tony Duell wrote: > There is some wonderful confusion in this thread :-).... Yes :-) > The first is the standard density 48tpi drive. This is what PC owners > would call a '360K drive'. [...] > The second is the standard density 96tpi drive. [...] > The third is the high density drive, known to PC users as the 1.2Mbyte > drive. [...] > From this, it seems to me that a 1.2Mbyte drive will _not_ reliably > read/write a 360K format on HD disks. It will use the wrong (too low) > write current. HD disks should be used for 1.2Mbyte formats only. > > Of course when a 1.2Mbyte drive is set to use 'standard' disks, it in > fact behaves like the second type above -- a 98tpi (80 cylinder) drive > and not a 360K (40 cylinder) one. Tony has put this very well. It's exactly what I was getting at. Furthermore, the media used in 96 tpi standard density disks is, in my experience, the same as that used in 48 tpi standard density disks. It even says so in my CDC drive manuals. However, as we all (ought to) know, the media for HD disks is very different. > According to all the data I can find (which is not much), the centre lines > of the 48tpi tracks and the centre lines of alternate 96tpi tracks > coincide. This means (amongst other things) that you can use the same > alignment disk for both types of drive. It also means that a 96tpi drive > can reliably read a disk formatted and written on a 48tpi drive (only). > When the 96 tpi drive's head is on a suitable track it is reading along > the middle of the track. It's going to read good data. That's why there's > no problem reading disks that have been formatted/written in 360K drives > using 1.2Mbyte drives. > > Now lets consider going the other way. Tony and I are in very close agreement here as well. The only point I'd add, is this: Disks which have been written in 48 tpi drives, and not subsequently been bulk erased, may be read in a 96 tpi drive; and if then overwritten by a 96 tpi drive, they will still be readable perfectly reliably by the 96 tpi drive, but often not by the 48 tpi drive. Just as Tony (and others) have said (and as I've been telling people for nearly 20 years). However, there is a good reason that the process is sometimes observed to work to some extent, and that has to do with the way the tracks are written/erased. When the track is written, data is only written into the centre portion (about 50% of the nominal track width). Either side of that, the erase coils in the head write a narrow guard band, which occupies most of the remaining track width. It may happen that the guard bands written by a 96 tpi drive are wide enough to erase a large proportion of the signal written by a 48 tpi drive, and a 48 tpi drive might just manage to separate the new signal from the relatively low level of the residual old signal. I'm *not* advocating this as an excuse to write 40-track (or 35-track) disks in an 80-track drive without prior bulk erasure. But it explains why some people have found it works for them (even before manufacturers streamlined the range of heads they made), though probably only with limited permutations of drives, and limited (at best) reliability. I'm well aware of the problems in switching between 48 tpi and 96 tpi. In the early '80s, I made and sold a little addon for micros that might need to read 40-track disks in 80-track drives. Because I was well aware of the problem, I arranged it so that it could not only switch on double-step for one drive, but could separately switch one of the drive selects between the normal connector and an extra one. The device was normally used on BBC Micros with twin 80-track floppies, and the extra connector was to connect a third, genuine 48 tpi, drive. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Mar 27 15:33:55 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Altos machines References: <000327092307.224006cc@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <001101bf984d$a383f0a0$509793c3@proteus> Hi, > Sorry, nothing about the machine that you had described.... Ah well, thanks for looking anyway! TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Mar 27 15:35:09 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Altos machines References: <76.279951c.2610295a@aol.com> Message-ID: <001201bf984d$a43c9240$509793c3@proteus> Hi, > Altos machines came in several generations.... Thanks for the comprehensive description, that's exactly what I needed to know. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From Technoid at cheta.net Mon Mar 27 18:45:29 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: SUNOS Password In-Reply-To: <38DEC3C7.A7EE80B6@rain.org> Message-ID: <200003280046.TAA07819@lexington.ioa.net> Someone noted how to get into a sun box and fix a lost password. I just aquired a SUN Sparcstation 330 and would like access. I have Solaris for Sparq on CD and would like to know how to make the machine boot from CD instead of the hard disk so I can go single user and fix this. For those curious it has: 48mb ram. 16mb in a separate card in 1mb 30pin simms and 32 on the CPU card in 4mb 30 pin simms Micropolis 760mb hard disk (scsi) standard lan port (aui) standard serials (six?) SCSI cart tape unit (untested) Your help will be greatly appreciated. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From ernestls at home.com Mon Mar 27 08:11:24 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Sharp PC-7000 In-Reply-To: <20000317234609.68876.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <000901bf9852$a5470b20$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> I have a copy of the Sharp PC 7000 boot disk if you would like a disk image of it. Let me know and I can email a copy of it to you. Ernest -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David Vohs Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 3:46 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Sharp PC-7000 I just today acquired a Sharp PC-7000 "lunchbox" style luggable, I thought it was a boombox until I opened it up. I know that it is an MS-DOS (XT or AT class?) machine, but now I need software for it. Can someone direct me to a good software archive for this machine? Also, what is the purpose of the metal-covered (screwed shut) connector on the underside of the machine? Is it for an external hard drive? ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From donm at cts.com Mon Mar 27 19:23:57 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Altos machines In-Reply-To: <76.279951c.2610295a@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: There was also a 486 that came packaged in a neat tan desktop case that was smaller than a PC. It had a single half high floppy and a single half high hard drive and ran Concurrent CP/M-86. Supporting three users, IIRC. I also have a recall of it being 80186 based, but could be wrong on that one. - don > Altos machines came in several generations. > > 1st Generation > > Altos 5-ZZ where ZZ was the size of the HD. These were Z80 machines with 5 > 1/4 inch drives. These are small rectangular desktop boxes. > > Altos 8XXX-ZZ was a large heavy rectangular desktop box with Z80s or 68000 > CPUs. These were generally multiuser machines. ZZ again refers to the size of > the 8" HD(10=10 Meg, 12=20 Meg, 14=40 Meg HDs). They used a large custom > single board computer the size of the case. The drive controller was a > separate half card mounted on top of the SBC. The early 8000s had separate > cases for the 8" FD & HD. In later models the drives and cards were > integrated in the same case. I think the 68000 processor machines were > labeled 68XX-ZZ but it has been too long to be sure. I also think the 68000 > machines ran an early version of Xenix. You could get them in versions up to > 9 users and a supervisor. > > 2nd Generation > > Altos 5XX & 6XX class machines. These looked like squashed hexagons, flat on > the bottom and top with two angles on each side. These were medium sized > desktop cases, usually beige but often came in custom colors. They carried on > the two circuit card configuration. Large SBC with secondary drive controller > card. > > Altos 580 was my favorite. Half height floppy and St 225 20 Meg HD with a Z80 > and ran 4 terminals under MPM. They would also run CPM. These also came with > FH 10 & 15 Meg HDs > > Altos 586 came with a 40 meg FHHD and the new 8086 processor and was a 6 user > machine. These often ran Xenix and were password protected. > > While I never had one I think the 686 series machines had the 68000 processor > and ran Xenix. > > These were all squashed Hexagonal shaped machines. I think this line went up > to 9XX series numbers with greater amounts of users. > > 3rd Generation > > Then there were the Brown floor towers, Altos II & III. These were multiple > card towers for large amounts of users. These had 80286 and 80386 processors. > I believe there were machines that continued the 680xx processor line too. I > only had a couple of these. > > The Altos II terminal is a rebadged Wyse 100 and the Altos III was a Wyse 50. > I think the Altos IV was a Wyse 60 but I am not sure at the moment. > > Paxton > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 27 19:44:43 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? References: <10003280130.ZM18052@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <000901bf9857$31909980$7f483cd1@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 5:30 PM Subject: Re: Parallel port hard drives? > On Mar 27, 19:57, Tony Duell wrote: > > > There is some wonderful confusion in this thread :-).... > > Yes :-) > > > The first is the standard density 48tpi drive. This is what PC owners > > would call a '360K drive'. > [...] > > The second is the standard density 96tpi drive. > [...] > > The third is the high density drive, known to PC users as the 1.2Mbyte > > drive. > [...] > > From this, it seems to me that a 1.2Mbyte drive will _not_ reliably > > read/write a 360K format on HD disks. It will use the wrong (too low) > > write current. HD disks should be used for 1.2Mbyte formats only. > > > > Of course when a 1.2Mbyte drive is set to use 'standard' disks, it in > > fact behaves like the second type above -- a 98tpi (80 cylinder) drive > > and not a 360K (40 cylinder) one. > Surely you mean 96 tpi . . . right? I'm curious ... How do you "set" a 1.2MB drive to behave as a 720-K drive, i.e. use that type of medium? It seems to me that, at a minimum, the controller would have to be seriously involved as well. > > Tony has put this very well. It's exactly what I was getting at. > Furthermore, the media used in 96 tpi standard density disks is, in my > experience, the same as that used in 48 tpi standard density disks. It > even says so in my CDC drive manuals. However, as we all (ought to) know, > the media for HD disks is very different. > The fact remains that there are diskettes specifically designated as being 96TPI-certified, "QD" presumably for quad density, since you get twice as many tracks as with a double density diskette, which were, originally sold at a higher price than the "360K" > > > According to all the data I can find (which is not much), the centre > lines > > of the 48tpi tracks and the centre lines of alternate 96tpi tracks > > coincide. This means (amongst other things) that you can use the same > > alignment disk for both types of drive. > This would follow but for the technique used for writing radial alignment tracks. > > > It also means that a 96tpi drive > > can reliably read a disk formatted and written on a 48tpi drive (only). > > When the 96 tpi drive's head is on a suitable track it is reading along > > the middle of the track. It's going to read good data. That's why there's > > no problem reading disks that have been formatted/written in 360K drives > > using 1.2Mbyte drives. > No dispute here! > > > Now lets consider going the other way. > > Tony and I are in very close agreement here as well. The only point I'd > add, is this: > > Disks which have been written in 48 tpi drives, and not subsequently been > bulk erased, may be read in a 96 tpi drive; and if then overwritten by a 96 > tpi drive, they will still be readable perfectly reliably by the 96 tpi > drive, but often not by the 48 tpi drive. Just as Tony (and others) have > said (and as I've been telling people for nearly 20 years). However, there > is a good reason that the process is sometimes observed to work to some > extent, and that has to do with the way the tracks are written/erased. > When the track is written, data is only written into the centre portion > (about 50% of the nominal track width). > That's the typical straddle erase. The field of the erase coils nearly overlaps in the center of the track. It does not generally erase a path as wide as a 48 TPI drive's write path, however. Some 8" drives used tunnel erase heads instead. These had a single erase coil in front of the read/write head to erase the same region of the diskette that was being written. If you ever happen to switch boards between drives with different head types, things will behave quite mysteriously, as the timing is quite different owning to the fact the erase operation has to be timed in advance of the write, and stopped before the write head is turned off so there's no dead spot on the diskette. > > Either side of that, the erase > coils in the head write a narrow guard band, which occupies most of the > remaining track width. It may happen that the guard bands written by a 96 > tpi drive are wide enough to erase a large proportion of the signal written > by a 48 tpi drive, and a 48 tpi drive might just manage to separate the new > signal from the relatively low level of the residual old signal. > > I'm *not* advocating this as an excuse to write 40-track (or 35-track) > disks in an 80-track drive without prior bulk erasure. But it explains why > some people have found it works for them (even before manufacturers > streamlined the range of heads they made), though probably only with > limited permutations of drives, and limited (at best) reliability. > > I'm well aware of the problems in switching between 48 tpi and 96 tpi. In > the early '80s, I made and sold a little addon for micros that might need > to read 40-track disks in 80-track drives. Because I was well aware of the > problem, I arranged it so that it could not only switch on double-step for > one drive, but could separately switch one of the drive selects between the > normal connector and an extra one. The device was normally used on BBC > Micros with twin 80-track floppies, and the extra connector was to connect > a third, genuine 48 tpi, drive. > Quite a few early-'80's CP/M systems were shipped with a software-patchable dummy disk parameter block in their BIOS to permit a 96TPI drive to READ 48 TPI diskettes. Naturally, they didn't normally disable the write function on that same dummy drive, but most of them recommended against trying to swap the diskette types indiscriminately, though many people tried it. The results I had and observed in others' lack of success certainly support the belief that the media were not the same. I normally avoided this by using a 96TPI drive for general read/write use and the 48TPI mode for reading only. This worked very well, given that one had a hard disk. That way there was a place to which to save a 48TPI diskette's contents before transferring them to a 96TPI diskette. > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From edick at idcomm.com Mon Mar 27 19:49:06 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Altos machines References: Message-ID: <001b01bf9857$ce056520$7f483cd1@winbook> The ALTOS server box I have has no 808x that I've seen so far, not that it's been examined with any rigor. The second board is that 2900-based HDC I once described. The box is sort of squashed-hexagon-shaped, and the cigarette-stain-brown doesn't wash off, so I suspect it's there by design. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Maslin To: Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 6:23 PM Subject: Re: Altos machines > > > On Sun, 26 Mar 2000 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > > There was also a 486 that came packaged in a neat tan desktop case that > was smaller than a PC. It had a single half high floppy and a single > half high hard drive and ran Concurrent CP/M-86. Supporting three > users, IIRC. I also have a recall of it being 80186 based, but could be > wrong on that one. > - don > > > Altos machines came in several generations. > > > > 1st Generation > > > > Altos 5-ZZ where ZZ was the size of the HD. These were Z80 machines with 5 > > 1/4 inch drives. These are small rectangular desktop boxes. > > > > Altos 8XXX-ZZ was a large heavy rectangular desktop box with Z80s or 68000 > > CPUs. These were generally multiuser machines. ZZ again refers to the size of > > the 8" HD(10=10 Meg, 12=20 Meg, 14=40 Meg HDs). They used a large custom > > single board computer the size of the case. The drive controller was a > > separate half card mounted on top of the SBC. The early 8000s had separate > > cases for the 8" FD & HD. In later models the drives and cards were > > integrated in the same case. I think the 68000 processor machines were > > labeled 68XX-ZZ but it has been too long to be sure. I also think the 68000 > > machines ran an early version of Xenix. You could get them in versions up to > > 9 users and a supervisor. > > > > 2nd Generation > > > > Altos 5XX & 6XX class machines. These looked like squashed hexagons, flat on > > the bottom and top with two angles on each side. These were medium sized > > desktop cases, usually beige but often came in custom colors. They carried on > > the two circuit card configuration. Large SBC with secondary drive controller > > card. > > > > Altos 580 was my favorite. Half height floppy and St 225 20 Meg HD with a Z80 > > and ran 4 terminals under MPM. They would also run CPM. These also came with > > FH 10 & 15 Meg HDs > > > > Altos 586 came with a 40 meg FHHD and the new 8086 processor and was a 6 user > > machine. These often ran Xenix and were password protected. > > > > While I never had one I think the 686 series machines had the 68000 processor > > and ran Xenix. > > > > These were all squashed Hexagonal shaped machines. I think this line went up > > to 9XX series numbers with greater amounts of users. > > > > 3rd Generation > > > > Then there were the Brown floor towers, Altos II & III. These were multiple > > card towers for large amounts of users. These had 80286 and 80386 processors. > > I believe there were machines that continued the 680xx processor line too. I > > only had a couple of these. > > > > The Altos II terminal is a rebadged Wyse 100 and the Altos III was a Wyse 50. > > I think the Altos IV was a Wyse 60 but I am not sure at the moment. > > > > Paxton > > > From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Mar 27 20:45:10 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: Altos Message-ID: In a message dated 3/27/2000 12:35:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, at258@osfn.org writes: > I checked out our Altos, and the old one is a 580-10A, #43948. Apparently > they made a lot of these little devils. > I believe the 580 is a Z-80 machine, not an intel 8080 processor. Another PN used for the Z-80 is the MK3880P-xx where xx=speed & P=plastic case. The '-10' indicates a 10 Meg HD. They could come with several different brands of drives. CPM or MPM was usually the operating system. there is a separate supervisor terminal port to administer the system. I think there were three user ports and two serial ports, one for a modem and one for a printer. I had about 10 of these at one time. Sold the last during my warehouse sales. I have had several up and running. They are easy. Plug a terminal into console. Wyse 100 or 50 terminal emulation. usually 9600/8/N (Hmm I can't remember the stop bits) Put a current limiter on the power line when you power it up for the first time. Make sure it is warm (room temp) and not cold from storage. Paxton From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Mar 27 22:04:25 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: eBay iopeners In-Reply-To: <001101bf984d$a383f0a0$509793c3@proteus> References: <000327092307.224006cc@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: I was just hunting on eBay for some compact flash memory for my camera, and searching for "sandisk" turned up a bunch of hits for iopeners. They are going for close to $300! From Technoid at cheta.net Mon Mar 27 22:59:03 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: SUNOS 5.4 Root Password In-Reply-To: <001b01bf9857$ce056520$7f483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: <200003280500.AAA12926@lexington.ioa.net> The machine boots to a password prompt. If I boot single-user it still comes up with a maintainence prompt and asks for the root password. I can't seem to get a CDROM working on the machine. The entire scsi subsystem does not want to function. The CDROM is unterminated on it's own address with parity off. The hard disk which does boot, parity off, terminated at end of chain. Should I just mount this drive under linux and get root access that way? Should I install solaris for x86 to gain root? What filesystem is SUNOS 5.4 using so I can tell Linux what to use? Thanks -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Mar 28 05:13:11 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:25 2005 Subject: eBay iopeners In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello Mike On 27-Mar-00, you wrote: > I was just hunting on eBay for some compact flash memory for my camera, and > searching for "sandisk" turned up a bunch of hits for iopeners. They are > going for close to $300! yeah, I've seen stuff for the Amiga go for more than you could buy it new . . . Typical auction, or should we call it a feeding frenzy? Gary Hildebrand Amigaphile and purveyor of vacuum tube technology From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Mar 27 23:41:48 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: SUNOS 5.4 Root Password In-Reply-To: <200003280500.AAA12926@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > I can't seem to get a CDROM working on the machine. The entire scsi > subsystem does not want to function. The CDROM is unterminated on it's > own address with parity off. The hard disk which does boot, parity off, > terminated at end of chain. What kind of cdrom? Does it support 512k blocksize? Have you looked at the Sun HW faq? Sun machines have a strange system of assigning/referencing scsi id no's... > Should I just mount this drive under linux and get root access that way? > Should I install solaris for x86 to gain root? What filesystem is SUNOS > 5.4 using so I can tell Linux what to use? SunOS uses the UFS filesystem, you'll need linux kernel 2.1.112 or higher to try the experimental read-write UFS (earlier is read-only). Backup first... Basically, you need to boot from the install CD/floppy/net in order to hack it. Booting to single user mode here can help if you munge the root user line (like set shell to /bin/oops or something) but won't let you bypass the root password. You need to focus on getting the CD working. Aaron From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Mar 27 23:50:25 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: SUNOS 5.4 Root Password References: <200003280500.AAA12926@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <38E04821.4B8943AE@mainecoon.com> Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > The machine boots to a password prompt. If I boot single-user it still > comes up with a maintainence prompt and asks for the root password. That's correct. Unlike SunOS, a boot -s to Solaris will still demand the root password. The only way around this mess is, as you surmised, to boot from cdrom, run the installation script long enough to exit to a shell, mount the root disk partition under the /tmp file system (it's the only one writable when booting from CD) and then hammer the /etc/shadow entry for root to specify no password. > I can't seem to get a CDROM working on the machine. The entire scsi > subsystem does not want to function. The CDROM is unterminated on it's > own address with parity off. The hard disk which does boot, parity off, > terminated at end of chain. Well, it must be working if it's booting from the hard disk. I take it from your description that you believe you've inserted the CDROM into the chain between the controller and the hard drive. Is that correct? Beware the fact that some earlier deskside Sparcs had Bad Weirdness with their SCSI cabling, in that the internal controller spoke to internal drives using an external cable... Is this a Sun cdrom drive? Random SCSI cdrom drives are prone to not working unless they have a sun-specific hack to make the ID string they return something identifiable to the boot prom. Differing Suns have differing ways of refering to CDROM drives, and some insist that the CDROM drive show up as ID 6. Have you tried using the prom diagnostics to probe the bus to see who is home? > Should I just mount this drive under linux and get root access that way? > Should I install solaris for x86 to gain root? What filesystem is SUNOS > 5.4 using so I can tell Linux what to use? I think I'd sort out the hardware issues. Solaris 5.4 (2.4) is incredibly old, slow, buggy and unsupported. You can get a single machine license for Solaris 8 (nee 5.8 or 2.8, depending on which numbering scheme you chose to use -- it's all the same thing) for the cost of media and shipping; unlimited license is $75 as is the source license. You're better off sorting out the hardware so you can install a version of the OS that actually works, but failing that you could pry the drive out and mount it on an x86 Solaris machine. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From Technoid at cheta.net Tue Mar 28 00:26:50 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: SUNOS 5.4 Root Password In-Reply-To: <38E04821.4B8943AE@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <200003280631.BAA24566@lexington.ioa.net> In <38E04821.4B8943AE@mainecoon.com>, on 03/28/00 at 01:26 AM, Chris Kennedy said: >Well, it must be working if it's booting from the hard disk. I take it >from your description that you believe you've inserted the CDROM into the >chain between the controller and the hard drive. Is that correct? Beware >the fact that some earlier deskside Sparcs had Bad Weirdness with their >SCSI cabling, in that the internal controller spoke to internal drives >using an external cable... Yes, the cdrom is in the 'middle'. This IS one of those wierd machines that has an external cable running from the internal drive chain to the internal controller.... >Is this a Sun cdrom drive? Random SCSI cdrom drives are prone to not >working unless they have a sun-specific hack to make the ID string they >return something identifiable to the boot prom. Differing Suns have >differing ways of refering to CDROM drives, and some insist that the >CDROM drive show up as ID 6. Have you tried using the prom diagnostics >to probe the bus to see who is home? I figured the id6 thing out by inferring from other info I hit on the web which was pretty slim on specifics. The drive is 6 and is a Toshiba XM-3701b. >I think I'd sort out the hardware issues. Solaris 5.4 (2.4) is >incredibly old, slow, buggy and unsupported. You can get a single >machine license for Solaris 8 (nee 5.8 or 2.8, depending on which >numbering scheme you chose to use -- it's all the same thing) for the >cost of media and shipping; unlimited license is $75 as is the source >license. You're better off sorting out the hardware so you can install a >version of the OS that actually works, but failing that you could pry the >drive out and mount it on an x86 Solaris machine. I may well just do that (mount the drive on my clone for cracking). Another option I though of would be to install solaris X86 on my clone as a boot server and install over the lan. I have the correct tranceiver (on my Data General mv4000 right now). Maybe I need a single-speed cdrom? BTW there are issues with this machine I have not yet resolved such as a parity error on a simm and what I think might be a power problem. I have cleaned and reassembled it but don't have any 30pin 4mb simms handy this evening. I have both the X86 free solaris 7 and the sparq version of same on cdrom. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From Technoid at cheta.net Tue Mar 28 00:34:55 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: SUNOS 5.4 Root Password In-Reply-To: <38E04821.4B8943AE@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <200003280641.BAA25531@lexington.ioa.net> You mentioned PROM diags. The prom recognizes only: b sd(0,18,0) -- which is to boot the machine from the only hard drive which is on controller 0 at id 3!!! What the hell. I understand it needs to be set to three but WHY?! Whats the rule? Why is the second argument 18? How would I represent then: b sr(x,x,x) if the cdrom was on id6 on the same controller (0) to boot cdrom? Other docs I have seen mention an 'OK' prompt. I get a wedge and sometimes a "watchdog" halt to this prompt or I can get the prompt by Stop+A. My prompt is more primitive than the OK version I think. PROBE-SCSI-ALL does not return anything near what is expected. It gives me a memory dump to screen of a few locations. PRO does the same so I know it is executing a different command and ignoring or misprocessing other chars following the real command. How do I get a floppy on this box? It has a 150mb scsi tape drive as it's only removable io. I am not hurting at all for scsi drives so if I have to... I think you think this machine is running solaris 5.4. It is actually SUNOS and still asks for the root password for a maintainence prompt. I don't know enough to say they are not really the same product with different names though... THanks a lot for the discussion all. I really appreciate the input. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Mar 28 01:30:30 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: SUNOS 5.4 Root Password In-Reply-To: <200003280631.BAA24566@lexington.ioa.net> References: <38E04821.4B8943AE@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <4.3.1.2.20000327232312.02a00100@208.226.86.10> To boot a sun machine from the CDROM using the "old style" (gives you the > prompt) it is : >b sd(0,6,2) If it gives you the "ok" prompt (aka Open Boot Prom) you should be able to type: ok boot cdrom The syntax in the first case is: dev(logical unit, scsi target, partition) I don't know why sd(0,18,0) works unless it just does it mod 8 and and boots target 2. There was a bit of weirdness in that "scsi device 0" was actually target 3. To boot from tape by the way you type: >b st(0,0,0)foo If you're booting SunOS (prior to Solaris 2.x) then the full command is >b sd(0,0,0)vmunix [options] for Solaris >b sd(0,0,0)kernel/unix [options] Usually it gets it right if you leave the file name blank. --Chuck From red at bears.org Tue Mar 28 01:51:46 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: installing SGI SVR3 from tape Message-ID: Howdy; I've got an IRIS 3130 I recently rescued, along with a shocking pile of tapes. Among these are what appears to be complete OS install tapes for GL2-3.6 (SGI's UNIX didn't come to be called until the first 4D-series machines were released) and 3.5r1. For various reasons I am interested in performing a new system installation. Booting from tape is (obviously) in order, and a tape identifying itself as the "boot system" is present. If I 'boot sq0' the QIC spins briefly and complains that it can't find the default boot file. Supposedly there is a stand-alone utility called 'sifex' which can be booted from tape to initialize disks and the like, but if that's on this tape it's not letting on. 'boot sq0:sifex' returns with an error to the effect that 'sifex' can't be found on the tape. I'm missing something but I don't know what. Am I trying to boot the wrong tape, or is something else going on? I suppose it would be worth trying to read a few of the QIC tapes while the system is up, but if someone knows in the meanwhile what my problem is likely to be, it'd be helpful. ok r. From red at bears.org Tue Mar 28 02:00:21 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: installing SGI SVR3 from tape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > GL2-3.6 (SGI's UNIX didn't come to be called until the first 4D-series > machines were released) and 3.5r1. -cough- What I MEANT to type was, of course, "didn't come to be called IRIX until the first 4D-series machines were released". ok r. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Mar 28 01:41:19 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: eBay iopeners In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> searching for "sandisk" turned up a bunch of hits for iopeners. They are >> going for close to $300! > > >yeah, I've seen stuff for the Amiga go for more than you could buy it new . >. . > >Typical auction, or should we call it a feeding frenzy? Sure, one or two wacky items going for high bids, but it looks like dozens of iopeners are selling at $200+ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 28 02:36:21 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: Parallel port hard drives?" (Mar 27, 18:44) References: <10003280130.ZM18052@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <000901bf9857$31909980$7f483cd1@winbook> Message-ID: <10003280936.ZM18329@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 27, 18:44, Richard Erlacher wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Pete Turnbull > > On Mar 27, 19:57, Tony Duell wrote: > > > fact behaves like the second type above -- a 98tpi (80 cylinder) drive > Surely you mean 96 tpi . . . right? I'm sure that was just a typo on Tony's part :-) > I'm curious ... How do you "set" a > 1.2MB drive to behave as a 720-K drive, i.e. use that type of medium? It > seems to me that, at a minimum, the controller would have to be seriously > involved as well. Assuming the HD drive is correctly jumpered, you simply get the controller to put a low signal on pin 2 (density) of the interface. On most drives, that will also change the speed from 360 rpm to 300; on others, not. > > Furthermore, the media used in 96 tpi standard density disks is, in my > > experience, the same as that used in 48 tpi standard density disks. It > > even says so in my CDC drive manuals. However, as we all (ought to) know, > > the media for HD disks is very different. > > > The fact remains that there are diskettes specifically designated as being > 96TPI-certified, "QD" presumably for quad density, since you get twice as > many tracks as with a double density diskette, which were, originally sold > at a higher price than the "360K" Indeed, and I have lots like that, ie either "certified for 96 tpi" or in a few cases, "QD". However, the differential is partly marketing, and partly because manufacturers often tested 96 tpi disks more carefully for microscopic blemishes -- a tiny defect might cause a disk to be rejected for 96 tpi, but pass a test for 48 tpi. Many (most?) manufacturers used exactly the same media/emulsion for both types -- I know for a fact that Dysan and Verbatim did, although I also know that Dysan at one time made disks that looked slightly different, and presumably those did use a slighlty different coating. > > > According to all the data I can find (which is not much), the centre > > lines > > > of the 48tpi tracks and the centre lines of alternate 96tpi tracks > > > coincide. This means (amongst other things) that you can use the same > > > alignment disk for both types of drive. > > > This would follow but for the technique used for writing radial alignment > tracks. I don't follow -- the instructions for my Shugart and Dysan alignment disks clearly state that the disk is suitable for both 96 tpi and 48 tpi drives, and lists the apropriate track numbers for the various tests, such as the cats-eyes alignment test (and, yes, the track number for 96 tpi is simply double the number for 48 tpi in each case). > results I had and observed in others' lack of success certainly support the > belief that the media were not the same. Perhaps you've been unlucky. I too have found some old 48 tpi media are just not good enough, giving one or two errors, but most post 1980 are fine -- and I suspect that's just the result of better quality control. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 28 02:13:59 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: SUNOS 5.4 Root Password In-Reply-To: Technoid@cheta.net "Re: SUNOS 5.4 Root Password" (Mar 28, 1:26) References: <200003280631.BAA24566@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <10003280913.ZM18319@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 28, 1:26, Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > In <38E04821.4B8943AE@mainecoon.com>, on 03/28/00 > at 01:26 AM, Chris Kennedy said: > >Is this a Sun cdrom drive? Random SCSI cdrom drives are prone to not > >working unless they have a sun-specific hack to make the ID string they > >return something identifiable to the boot prom. Differing Suns have > >differing ways of refering to CDROM drives, and some insist that the > >CDROM drive show up as ID 6. Have you tried using the prom diagnostics > >to probe the bus to see who is home? > > I figured the id6 thing out by inferring from other info I hit on the web > which was pretty slim on specifics. The drive is 6 and is a Toshiba > XM-3701b. > Maybe I need a single-speed cdrom? Some older Sun boot PROMs won't recogise a CDROM unless set for 512-byte blocks. Although the 3601 and later Toshibas recognise the SCSI mode-select command to switch from normal CDROM 2048-byte operation to Sun/SGI 512-byte operation, older PROMs don't issue that command. I'm not sure about a Sparcstation 330, but you may need a drive that can be explicitly set (such as a Toshiba 3301 or 3401; some Sony and Hitachi drives also have a switch or jumper. You might also want to switch from the "old" boot mode (prompt ">") to the "new" one (prompt "ok ") by typing "n". PROBE-SCSI, HELP, and most other commands are only available from the "new" prompt. > BTW there are issues with this machine > I have not yet resolved such as a parity error on a simm and what I think > might be a power problem. I'd fix that first :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Tue Mar 28 04:15:56 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: PDP11/23 More dumb questions Message-ID: <000e01bf989e$9f2c5280$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> The cards are, from one end: M8192 M7195 M8067 M8045 M8059 There is an RX50 double floppy drive and an RD50 hard drive. It's difficult to work out what these are cabled to as they all plug into an interface behind the backplane. I've also found out that it ran Venix in it's first life. It was connected to a PDP8/A that I also have but can't do anything with because of it's state. I'm unclear about the switches and lights, but I have the run light on, the DC light on, the fixed disk write protect switch out and it's red light out, and the fixed disk ready switch out with it's green light on. There seem to be some (slight) behavioural differences depending on which serial port I plug the terminal into. Hans -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, 28 March 2000 0:49 Subject: RE: PDP11/23 More dumb questions >>Anyway, I start the VT220 before the PDP and it gives a message VT220 Ready. >>I power up the PDP and basically get nothing at all. The only sequence that >>gets any response is hitting the halt button. The terminal then says: >>165262 >>@ >>When I hit the Restart button after that nothing happens for about 2 >>minutes. >>Then an "&" prompt appears. >>Nothing I type in gets any response after that. Typing "help" gets no >>response. > >The "165262 @" prompting is from ODT. ODT is a very simplistic monitor >that lets you modify memory and registers and start or single-step >through instructions in memory. > >165000 is a common (but not the most common) address to put a ROM'ed >bootstrap at. I'm guessing that when you halted it it was either doing >the self-test or waiting for an external device to come ready. > >The "&" prompt I'm not so sure about. It's possible that this is a prompt >from the bootstrap monitor (some Emulex bootstraps will say that) or >maybe it's from the OS/embedded application. > >>The machine is in a BA23 case and was a PDP11/23 I think, but has a PDP11/73 >>CPU upgrade. There is a full height ST506 hard drive reputed to be 30Mb in >>size, which spins and makes all the right noises. >>Any suggestions? > >What would help the most of all is an inventory of cards in the backplane. >If they're DEC cards they'll have a "Mxxxx" number on the handle. Third >party cards you'll probably have to pull to identify. Also tell us >the exact position of each card in the backplane, and what cards are cabled >to what drives. > >I suspect from the less-than-perfectly-standard bootstrap address of >165000 that you've got a third-party controller in there with on-board >bootstrap, though of course there an infinite number of permutations that >things could have been set up for! > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From PeksaDO at Cardiff.ac.uk Tue Mar 28 10:23:06 2000 From: PeksaDO at Cardiff.ac.uk (DOUG PEKSA - COMPG) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z Message-ID: All this talk of RM380/480s has prompted me to admit that I own four: 2 x Link 480Z (with one 'beige' twin 5.25 drive) 1 x 380Z (twin 8" drives and winchester) 1 x 380Z (twin 5.25" drives) The 380Z with 8" drives is fairly well loaded: 1) IO 2) CPU/32K #1 3) 32K 4) Hi Res Graphics 5) Winchester #2 6) Analog I/O 7) Network #3 8) Terminator #1 Containing (roll on drums, wait for it tony) a daughter card containing the CPU and the IEEE gubbins (connected to the 'IEEE STD 488 PORT') #2 A 5Mbyte 5.25" unit - unfortunately expired before I acquired it #3 This card has more wire wrap on the 'back' than any other card I've seen that wasn't designed as such The serial number is 35/121003 and the etch dates are 1978 or 1979 with some cards have a cloth sticker of 1980. Doug. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Mar 28 07:37:39 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: eBay iopeners In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > I was just hunting on eBay for some compact flash memory for my camera, and > searching for "sandisk" turned up a bunch of hits for iopeners. They are > going for close to $300! Thats pretty stupid. List on them is $199 and sale price is $99. Looks like someone trying to make a killing on impatience. Then aagain all too often ebay is egreed. Allison From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Mar 28 08:21:31 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: eBay iopeners Message-ID: <20000328.083051.-167751.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 05:13:11 -0600 Gary Hildebrand writes: > yeah, I've seen stuff for the Amiga go for more than you could buy > it new . > . . > > Typical auction, or should we call it a feeding frenzy? > > Gary Hildebrand > Amigaphile and purveyor of vacuum tube technology Ain't that bizarre? Even more bizarre was when I picked up an extremely scarce WD-1009 ESDI controller for < $10! Contrary to popluar belief, there are bargains there. . . ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Mar 28 09:07:29 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? References: <10003280130.ZM18052@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <000901bf9857$31909980$7f483cd1@winbook> <10003280936.ZM18329@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <000b01bf98c7$563cc400$7f483cd1@winbook> Please see embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 1:36 AM Subject: Re: Parallel port hard drives? > On Mar 27, 18:44, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Pete Turnbull > > > On Mar 27, 19:57, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > fact behaves like the second type above -- a 98tpi (80 cylinder) > drive > > > Surely you mean 96 tpi . . . right? > > I'm sure that was just a typo on Tony's part :-) > > > I'm curious ... How do you "set" a > > 1.2MB drive to behave as a 720-K drive, i.e. use that type of medium? It > > seems to me that, at a minimum, the controller would have to be seriously > > involved as well. > > Assuming the HD drive is correctly jumpered, you simply get the controller > to put a low signal on pin 2 (density) of the interface. On most drives, > that will also change the speed from 360 rpm to 300; on others, not. > > > > Furthermore, the media used in 96 tpi standard density disks is, in my > > > experience, the same as that used in 48 tpi standard density disks. It > > > even says so in my CDC drive manuals. However, as we all (ought to) > know, > > > the media for HD disks is very different. > > > > > The fact remains that there are diskettes specifically designated as > being > > 96TPI-certified, "QD" presumably for quad density, since you get twice as > > many tracks as with a double density diskette, which were, originally > sold > > at a higher price than the "360K" > > Indeed, and I have lots like that, ie either "certified for 96 tpi" or in > a few cases, "QD". However, the differential is partly marketing, and > partly because manufacturers often tested 96 tpi disks more carefully for > microscopic blemishes -- a tiny defect might cause a disk to be rejected > for 96 tpi, but pass a test for 48 tpi. Many (most?) manufacturers used > exactly the same media/emulsion for both types -- I know for a fact that > Dysan and Verbatim did, although I also know that Dysan at one time made > disks that looked slightly different, and presumably those did use a > slighlty different coating. > > > > > According to all the data I can find (which is not much), the centre > > > lines > > > > of the 48tpi tracks and the centre lines of alternate 96tpi tracks > > > > coincide. This means (amongst other things) that you can use the same > > > > alignment disk for both types of drive. > > > > > This would follow but for the technique used for writing radial alignment > > tracks. > > I don't follow -- the instructions for my Shugart and Dysan alignment disks > clearly state that the disk is suitable for both 96 tpi and 48 tpi drives, > and lists the apropriate track numbers for the various tests, such as the > cats-eyes alignment test (and, yes, the track number for 96 tpi is simply > double the number for 48 tpi in each case). > I had the sense that the runout with which the alignment diskettes for 48TPI are written would exceed half the track width of a 96TPI diskette. Perhaps that;s not the case. I've never had occasion to do radial alignment checks on a 5-1'4" drive. The margin for 8" drives, however, seems to be quite substantial, hency my belief that the angualr displacement to provide a significant error would be more than half what's seen of a half-track drive. > > > results I had and observed in others' lack of success certainly support > the > > belief that the media were not the same. > > Perhaps you've been unlucky. I too have found some old 48 tpi media are > just not good enough, giving one or two errors, but most post 1980 are fine > -- and I suspect that's just the result of better quality control. > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Mar 28 10:51:11 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: PDP11/23 More dumb questions Message-ID: <000328115111.224007ca@trailing-edge.com> >The cards are, from one end: >M8192 OK, this is the CPU, a KDJ11-A. >M7195 128 kbyte RAM >M8067 Another 128 kbyte RAM >M8045 Depending on the letters that follow M8045, it's between 8 kbytes and 64 kbytes of RAM. I'm guessing it's a fully populated 64 kbytes. >M8059 Another 128 kbytes or 256 kbytes of RAM, depending on the letters that follow the M8059. >I've also found out that it ran Venix in it's first life. It was connected >to a PDP8/A that I also have but can't do anything with because of it's >state. >I'm unclear about the switches and lights, but I have the run light on, the >DC light on, the fixed disk write protect switch out and it's red light out, >and the fixed disk ready switch out with it's green light on. >There seem to be some (slight) behavioural differences depending on which >serial port I plug the terminal into. It's also particularly confusing, because you evidently have no serial line cards nor disk controllers in the backplane. I have no idea how you even got the ODT prompt out of the machine. Look at the serial ports on the back of the machine, and the ribbon cables coming from the inside of the cab kits. Which cards in the backplane do these connect to? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From marvin at rain.org Tue Mar 28 11:29:54 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: eBay iopeners References: Message-ID: <38E0EC12.5EB1744B@rain.org> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > > > I was just hunting on eBay for some compact flash memory for my camera, and > > searching for "sandisk" turned up a bunch of hits for iopeners. They are > > going for close to $300! > > Thats pretty stupid. List on them is $199 and sale price is $99. Looks > like someone trying to make a killing on impatience. Then aagain all too > often ebay is egreed. egreed? I don't think. A good argument could be made though for e-ignorance, e-impatience, e-"don't want to check around" and perhaps a few other similar items. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Mar 28 13:56:06 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: eBay iopeners In-Reply-To: <38E0EC12.5EB1744B@rain.org> Message-ID: <200003281757.e2SHv7310306@mail2.siemens.de> > > > I was just hunting on eBay for some compact flash memory for my camera, and > > > searching for "sandisk" turned up a bunch of hits for iopeners. They are > > > going for close to $300! > > Thats pretty stupid. List on them is $199 and sale price is $99. Looks > > like someone trying to make a killing on impatience. Then aagain all too > > often ebay is egreed. > egreed? I don't think. A good argument could be made though for e-ignorance, > e-impatience, e-"don't want to check around" and perhaps a few other similar > items. You mean e-tems :) SCNR H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/vcfe http://www.homecomputer.de/vcfe From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 28 12:43:40 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: eBay iopeners In-Reply-To: <38E0EC12.5EB1744B@rain.org> References: Message-ID: >> Thats pretty stupid. List on them is $199 and sale price is $99. Looks >> like someone trying to make a killing on impatience. Then aagain all too >> often ebay is egreed. > >egreed? I don't think. A good argument could be made though for >>e-ignorance, e-impatience, e-"don't want to check around" and perhaps a >few >other similar items. How about good old-fashioned cluelessness? As in people bidding on stuff when they haven't a clue as to what it's actually worth or where they could get it for a honest price? In the case of the iOpeners though, I suspect it's a case of speculators buying up a bunch when they could, and now dumping them, while the speculation is that any further ones sold will be "unhackable". Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From lsommo at hotmail.com Tue Mar 28 13:01:47 2000 From: lsommo at hotmail.com (Louis Sommo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: iOpener Message-ID: <20000328190147.28498.qmail@hotmail.com> This now appears when you begin a purchase transaction on the Netpliance web site. By purchasing the i-opener you are agreeing to use the i-opener Internet service. The fee is $21.95 a month and will be billed to your credit card approximately 2 days after the i-opener is shipped to you. i-opener Internet appliances shipped after March 20, 2000 can no longer be reconfigured in the manner described in recent reports. Modification of the i-opener in any way is in violation of our terms and conditions. >From: Brian Roth >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: iOpener >Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:29:30 -0500 > >Its possible that they could goo the area with epoxy which will make it >very >difficult but not impossible to add the drive. I have seen other manu's do >this as a quick fix until a more permanant solution can be >engineered.(remember Videocipher?) > >I still have one ordered hoping the mod will still be possible. > >Brian. > >Megan wrote: > > > >OK, I got a 6.4 GB laptop drive hooked up and right now the iOpener is > > >running DOS/BATCH V10-01A on an emulated PDP-11/40+RK05 system. I love > > >it!!! > > > > >It's going to take some real butchery to get the case closed, but I >guess > > >that's to be expected. The low-profile 3M connector barely fit under >the > > >CPU heat sink w/o needing it to be clearanced, that was nice. > > > > >BTW the CPU seems to be 200 MHz, not 180 MHz. But it still gets only > > >about 80 BogoMIPS, pretty slow. > > > > I heard last night that Netpliance is making modifications so that >people > > can no longer do this... they are apparently losing a LOT of money >selling > > the machines, having expected to recoup it in the service charges... > > > > Can someone confirm this... and maybe confirm the change that they > > have done (which I understand is simply removal of the cable connector > > for the drive). > > > > Oh, and supposedly back-ordered units will have the mod... > > > > Megan Gentry > > Former RT-11 Developer > > > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | > > | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | > > | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | > > | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > > | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > > | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Mar 28 13:21:47 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: iOpener Message-ID: <000328142147.224007e0@trailing-edge.com> >By purchasing the i-opener you are agreeing to use the i-opener Internet >service. The fee is $21.95 a month and will be billed to your credit card >approximately 2 days after the i-opener is shipped to you. And then $21.95 every month for the rest of your life? I seriously doubt that such an open-ended contract is enforceable anywhere. >i-opener Internet appliances shipped after March 20, 2000 can no longer be >reconfigured in the manner described in recent reports. Modification of the >i-opener in any way is in violation of our terms and conditions. What terms and conditions? If you aren't allowed to see them (I poked around a little bit and didn't find them) how can they be part of the sales contract? Wasn't it a Steve Martin movie that illustrated the "Substantial Penalty for Early Withdrawal" clause? IIRC the depositor was given a blindfold and shot... -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Mar 28 13:59:36 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: SUNOS 5.4 Root Password In-Reply-To: <200003280641.BAA25531@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: First, check out http://saturn.tlug.org/suncdfaq/index.html Regarding OS's, keep in mind that Sol 7 may not support this machine (didn't they drop VME support?). Also, Solaris *is* SunOS; SunOS 5.4 is Solaris 2.4. The CD does need to be scsi id#6, this is hardcoded into the kernel with Solaris v2.5 and older. As far as booting, what you enter at the monitor prompt depends on *where* on the CD the system for your architecture is. For the 4/330, you might try >b sd(,18,1) or >b sd(,30,1). Again, check to see that the version of Solaris that you're trying to boot supports your machine... Good luck, Aaron BTW, of course I did mean 512 bytes instead of 512K in my last post... On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > You mentioned PROM diags. > > The prom recognizes only: > > b sd(0,18,0) -- which is to boot the machine from the only hard drive > which is on controller 0 at id 3!!! What the hell. I understand it needs > to be set to three but WHY?! Whats the rule? Why is the second argument > 18? How would I represent then: > > b sr(x,x,x) if the cdrom was on id6 on the same controller (0) to boot > cdrom? > > Other docs I have seen mention an 'OK' prompt. I get a wedge and > sometimes a "watchdog" halt to this prompt or I can get the prompt by > Stop+A. My prompt is more primitive than the OK version I think. > PROBE-SCSI-ALL does not return anything near what is expected. It gives > me a memory dump to screen of a few locations. PRO does the same so I > know it is executing a different command and ignoring or misprocessing > other chars following the real command. > > How do I get a floppy on this box? It has a 150mb scsi tape drive as it's > only removable io. I am not hurting at all for scsi drives so if I have > to... > > I think you think this machine is running solaris 5.4. It is actually > SUNOS and still asks for the root password for a maintainence prompt. I > don't know enough to say they are not really the same product with > different names though... > > THanks a lot for the discussion all. I really appreciate the input. > > > > > > > > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Technical Services > Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. > 1979B Hendersonville Road > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days > 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 28 13:43:43 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: installing SGI SVR3 from tape In-Reply-To: "r. 'bear' stricklin" "Re: installing SGI SVR3 from tape" (Mar 28, 3:00) References: Message-ID: <10003282043.ZM18656@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 28, 3:00, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > > GL2-3.6 (SGI's UNIX didn't come to be called until the first 4D-series > > machines were released) and 3.5r1. > > -cough- > > What I MEANT to type was, of course, "didn't come to be called IRIX until > the first 4D-series machines were released". I knew that :-) What I don't know, unfortunately, is the first thing about GL. Not that sort, anyway. 'sifex' rings a bell, though. I'll ask amongst my friends. Have you tried any of the c.s.sgi.* newsgroups? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 28 14:07:16 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: PDP11/23 More dumb questions In-Reply-To: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com "Re: PDP11/23 More dumb questions" (Mar 28, 11:51) References: <000328115111.224007ca@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <10003282107.ZM18666@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 28, 11:51, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > On Mar 28, 20:15, Olminkhof wrote: > >The cards are, from one end: > >M7195 > > 128 kbyte RAM It's actually a MXV11-B Multifunction card, with 128KB RAM, and ... > >M8067 > > Another 128 kbyte RAM Or maybe 256K > It's also particularly confusing, because you evidently have no serial > line cards nor disk controllers in the backplane. I have no idea > how you even got the ODT prompt out of the machine. ... the MXV11-B has two SLUs, of the same type as a DLV11. It also has a bootstrap (usually) which is vaguely similar to some of the 11/23+ ad early 11/73 bootstraps, and an LTC. And a million jumper posts. I have a document listing their names/functions somewhere online, if you need it. > There seem to be some (slight) behavioural differences depending on which > serial port I plug the terminal into. Well, the one on the left of the card, looking into it from the back, is the console line, if that helps. > I'm unclear about the switches and lights, but I have the run light on, the > DC light on, the fixed disk write protect switch out and it's red light out, > and the fixed disk ready switch out with it's green light on. Well, that should be running. As Tim noted, there isn't a disk controller in your list, though. I'd expect an RQDX1 or maybe RQDX2 in that machine -- more likely an RQDX1 if the drive is an RD50. If there isn't, it won't do much. It might be worth trying to connect a terminal to the console SLU and seein what happens when you start it. You can break into the bootstrap routine using ctrl-C if necessary. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 28 12:27:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: <000901bf9857$31909980$7f483cd1@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Mar 27, 0 06:44:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3288 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000328/ea081afc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 28 12:14:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: <10003280130.ZM18052@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Mar 28, 0 00:30:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 6559 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000328/02c8609d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 28 12:51:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: <10003280936.ZM18329@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Mar 28, 0 08:36:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 974 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000328/319ce08a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 28 12:56:18 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: from "DOUG PEKSA - COMPG" at Mar 28, 0 10:23:06 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1264 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000328/54b21105/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 28 14:21:25 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <000328142147.224007e0@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >>i-opener Internet appliances shipped after March 20, 2000 can no longer be >>reconfigured in the manner described in recent reports. Modification of the >>i-opener in any way is in violation of our terms and conditions. > >What terms and conditions? If you aren't allowed to see them (I poked >around a little bit and didn't find them) how can they be part of the >sales contract? Not to mention that if I go to Circuit City and *buy* a piece of equipment it's *mine*. I'm not renting it. I can do whatever I want with it. If I want to toss it in the closet and forget about it, or take it out to the shooting range and fill it full of holes that's my business. It's not like the cable box I rent, that isn't mine, and I've no right to go messing with it. In this case I'm buying a service, and they rent me the hardware to use this service. Personally, when and if mine ever shows up at CC, then I'll be paying with *cash*. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Mar 28 14:25:20 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: PDP11/23 More dumb questions Message-ID: <000328152520.224007e0@trailing-edge.com> >> >M7195 >> >> 128 kbyte RAM >It's actually a MXV11-B Multifunction card, with 128KB RAM, and ... >> It's also particularly confusing, because you evidently have no serial >> line cards nor disk controllers in the backplane. I have no idea >> how you even got the ODT prompt out of the machine. >... the MXV11-B has two SLUs, of the same type as a DLV11. Yeah, that makes more sense. I still don't know how his machine is supposed to boot from disk without a disk controller, though! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From elvey at hal.com Tue Mar 28 14:38:04 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: SUNOS 5.4 Root Password In-Reply-To: <10003280913.ZM18319@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200003282038.MAA21488@civic.hal.com> pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) wrote: > > You might also want to switch from the "old" boot mode (prompt ">") to the > "new" one (prompt "ok ") by typing "n". PROBE-SCSI, HELP, and most other > commands are only available from the "new" prompt. Hi It is OK to call the 'ok' the open-boot prompt. You can even call it the Forth prompt, after all, that is what it is. >From the 'ok' prompt you have a fully functional Forth interpreter/compiler. It is even possible to write custom code and save it into the NVRAM to do special functions on boot, if you know what you are doing. I've done this kind of stuff in the past with a book in one hand to tell me the ins and outs of a unix machine. I don't need a book on Forth because I already know it. Forth is the hardware persons secret tool, don't tell software types, they won't understand. Dwight From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Mar 28 15:12:13 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: SUNOS 5.4 Root Password References: Message-ID: <38E1202D.3F6E608D@mainecoon.com> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Regarding OS's, keep in mind that Sol 7 may not support this machine > (didn't they drop VME support?). Urg. Yeah, that's right, except I believe 7 still supported the 600MP. That's been dropped by Sol 8, along with support for the 4c family (1/1+/2/IPC/IPX and the like). -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Mar 28 15:29:21 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: iOpener Message-ID: <20000328212921.5707.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Personally, when and if mine ever shows up at CC, then I'll be paying with > *cash*. Don't sweat it. NP has already said that only units ordered directly from them are subject to automatic account activation on the credit card that ordered it. Fair or not; legal or not; that is their policy. Units ordered through CC are not activated until plugged into the phone system and turned on. After all, they ship those whenever and they sit around at CC until they are bought (if they weren't 1000's of units backlogged ;-) There's no way to regulate that. The bad news is that NP is explictly shipping to direct customers in preference to CC customers. Mine is still on backorder through CC and likely will be for weeks. I'm number 10 out of 100 at my store alone. There are six stores within driving distance. They have received two units in two weeks. :-( The only good news is that units with a 21-Mar-2000 manufacture date appear to be unmodified. Who knows what the future may bring. For the $106 mine will cost (with tax), I'll take the risk that I have to remove epoxy or solder in a header. -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Mar 28 16:44:09 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: Message-ID: <00cc01bf990a$232df3c0$03e893c3@proteus> Hi Tony, >>> 2 Recorder 1 motor control (TTL level) >>> 7 Recorder 2 motor control (TTL level). >> >> Woah, back up there....TTL level??? > > Yes. Come straight from a 74LS273 chip (IC1 on the VDU card if >it matters). :-) > One thing that might matter here is that my 'Information File' >(Technical Manual) is for 'disk systems'. It's possible that >cassette-only machines have the relays inside the CPU box.... I've got a feeling that my set of manuals is also for the disc based systems. OK, I've gone and dug them out. I'm fairly certain that these are all that I have: 380Z Disc System Users Guide (CP/M 2.2 Users Guide) 380Z Disc System (Information File) Extended BASIC Version 5 For Disc Systems (Reference Manual) Extended BASIC Version 5 High Resolution Graphics Level 2 (Supplement) 380Z Disc BASIC Release Notes. ZASM Z80-Assembler (printed on a dot matrix printer) TXED REFERENCE CARD High Resolution Graphics Reference Manual COS 3.4 Reference Manual COS 4.0 Differences from COS 3.4 No real mention of cassette systems. It does state in the "Information File" that only 40-column display machines have the cassette interface, it being omitted from the 80-column display card. > The 'standard' recorder was a Hitachi TRQ-299R according to the >manual. Just as an aside, I *THINK* that's the same cassette recorder which appeared in early Atari advertising as the "410" (I have a b/w photo of one labelled thusly and sat next to an Atari 400). Needless to say the real 410s were nothing like these. > If you just have one of them, and don't need motor control, then >yes, all you need is a cable wit ha 7 pin DIN on one end.... I'm wondering, did the Hitachi recorder allow for motor control via the DIN socket? ISTR coming across the odd cassette recorder then which did allow for this. I ask as I'm certain we had computer control of the motor on ours, but I don't recall there being a lead which attached to the "remote" socket. >....As is reference to a 'dummy plug' to turn off the >internal speaker of the tape recorder. They also mention such a plug being used to turn off the recorder's internal condenser microphone. Now I am really confused....I only recall us using a single "dummy plug" in the recorder.... > But there's no mention of how the external cassette control unit >works. Pretty much the same in my copy I'm afraid. It mentions there being some sort of switch on the unit, and also mentions that the convention is to wire up the first recorder for playback only and the second for recording only. Other than details of how to make your own lead that's all there is in my manuals. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Mar 28 16:47:12 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: Message-ID: <00cd01bf990a$24547260$03e893c3@proteus> Hi Tony, >....Some (early?) machines were cassette-based and may have had >BASIC in ROM, or you might have had to load that from cassette. None of the machines we had at school had BASIC in ROM, the cassette based system certainly loaded it from cassette. ISTR We had a choice of a couple of different versions (not to mention "CESIL"). TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Mar 28 13:11:58 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: Message-ID: <00cb01bf990a$227e79e0$03e893c3@proteus> Hi Tony, >> So that makes at least two "spotted in the wild".... > > Indeed, well, unless the chap managed to find the cables, >disks, manuals, etc.... Possible I suppose, he was looking for manuals and discs. I did offer to give him my set of manuals but he never did ring me about them. > The Hires card is fun :-). It's not a high resolution by today's >standards, but it wasn't too bad for the time. The colour output >option plugs into the hires card.... Quite, it was the highest resolution display I'd used at the time - the only other machines I'd used to any great extent at the time were a PET, a Nascom II and my ZX-80.... We never had the colour option. :-( > We had one of these at school. I remember being asked (and >succeeding in doing) to modify a large/expensive Barco monitor to >take RGB inputs.... >....learnt the value of good service data and schematics (which >both RML and Barco provided). Yep, back in those days you pretty much ALWAYS got at least the schematics with such equipment. It's something I really miss....and I was more than a little miffed that my ZX-80 (pre-assembled) didn't come with such documentation when it finally arrived. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Mar 28 13:01:35 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: HP Apollo/9000s References: <20000316010308.FXAU4547.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> Message-ID: <00ca01bf990a$20f4cca0$03e893c3@proteus> Hi Mike, >>>....I found mailing lists.... >> >>Could you let me have the details plese? > > I didn't keep the info, but if you don't mind waiting when I >get interested in the Apollo stuff again I will pass on what >I find.... No worries, there's no great rush. I'm just trying to decide whether to keep the pair of DN3xx0 machines I have now, or go for something different. The PA-RISC and bit slice machines look interesting.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Mar 28 17:04:07 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: Prime 2455 Message-ID: <00ce01bf990a$26953aa0$03e893c3@proteus> Whilst digging out some 380Z manuals I found a "Prime 2455" I'd forgotten I had.... I'd like to have a bash at getting this going, but aside from needing OS tapes (anyone help PLEASE?) the tape drive and hard drive have been removed along with some sort of drive mounting tray. Can anyone tell me what types/capacities of hard drive I can fit to this machine, and what model of tape drive does it take (all I know is that the tape and hard drives are SCSI devices)? Also, I *NEED* the mounting tray/stage which fits inside the top of the machine to which the drives attach. Anyone in the UK in a position to help? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Tue Mar 28 17:14:52 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: Sharp PC-7000 Message-ID: <20000328231452.84946.qmail@hotmail.com> >I have a copy of the Sharp PC 7000 boot disk if you would like a >disk >image of it. Let me know and I can email a copy of it to you. > >Ernest I already have a boot disk for this thing, but thanks anyhow. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Mar 28 17:34:01 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: SUNOS 5.4 Root Password In-Reply-To: <38E1202D.3F6E608D@mainecoon.com> from Chris Kennedy at "Mar 28, 2000 01:12:13 pm" Message-ID: <200003282334.SAA01436@bg-tc-ppp479.monmouth.com> > Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > Regarding OS's, keep in mind that Sol 7 may not support this machine > > (didn't they drop VME support?). > > Urg. Yeah, that's right, except I believe 7 still supported the 600MP. > That's been dropped by Sol 8, along with support for the 4c family > (1/1+/2/IPC/IPX and the like). > > -- > Chris Kennedy > chris@mainecoon.com > http://www.mainecoon.com > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 > Solaris 8 dropped support for the 4c. Damn, wonder if I can return the order. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Mar 28 17:39:48 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 07:51:51PM +0100 References: <10003280936.ZM18329@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20000328183948.A7319@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 07:51:51PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, whether it changes the drive speed is often a > jumper-configurable option as well. And most PC drives are jumpered so > that the drive speed is NOT changed -- PC 1.2Mbyte drives run at 360rpm > even when used with DD disks (but the controller data rate is increased > from 250kbps to 300kbps to compensate). The nice thing about this feature is that once the jumpers are set, it's the FDC+FDD's business and software doesn't have to know which way it's set up. Writing 01h to 3F7h sets the drive for either 250kHz/300 RPM or 300kHz/360RPM, whichever is appropriate for this FDC+FDD combination. Either way you can access 360 KB disks, kinda, and RX50 disks, definitely. John Wilson D Bit From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Mar 28 16:57:07 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: SUNOS 5.4 Root Password In-Reply-To: (message from Aaron Christopher Finney on Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:41:48 -0800 (PST)) References: Message-ID: <20000328225707.15483.qmail@brouhaha.com> > What kind of cdrom? Does it support 512k blocksize? Have you looked at the You mean 512-byte block size. The "standard" size is 2048 bytes, but some Unix boxes require 512 bytes. Some SCSI CD-ROM drives (e.g., Plextor) have a jumper setting for this. Some (e.g., Toshiba) have an undocumented set of solder pads that can be bridged for this. From Technoid at cheta.net Tue Mar 28 17:50:46 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: Sparq fails EEprom check In-Reply-To: <00cc01bf990a$232df3c0$03e893c3@proteus> Message-ID: <200003282351.SAA00448@lexington.ioa.net> After work today I hung a DG Walkabout terminal off serial A of the SUN box. Self test reports that the EEPROM has failed. I will pull the board and hunt for the chip later this evening but what does this mean for me? Does it mean I simply replace the chip or is there info on the chip now that is not reconstructable? Answers a lot of questions. Incidentally, the chip almost invariably passes diags and allows a boot if you VERY quickly cycle power to the machine. I don't know why it is but it works even if it is a horrible thing to do to a computer. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Mar 28 17:52:48 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: Sun SCSI Information In-Reply-To: <200003280046.TAA07819@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: I did a quick peek to find the scsi address/target info for Sun hardware and found the following page, which had some interesting info that cleared up the "why" where I had just been concerned with the "what" on this stuff: http://wks.uts.ohio-state.edu/sysadm_course/html/sysadm-201.html Cheers, Aaron From thompson at mail.athenet.net Tue Mar 28 18:14:18 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:26 2005 Subject: Classic computing stops in Boston area In-Reply-To: <20000328190147.28498.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: I will be in Burlington MA next week on business, with a fair amount of off hours time off. I have heard rumors of electronics shop(s) in the vicinity of MIT having an interesting selection of old DEC or other classic computing hardware. Also isn't one of the computer museums in that area? Does anyone living in that area have any suggestions on good places to visit in the Boston area with the above in mind? I have sucessfully nagivated from my hotel to the Alewife subway station during a stay in 1998, and thus went under MIT on my way sightseeing downtown. Your suggestions welcome Thanks Paul From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Mar 28 18:25:55 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Sparq fails EEprom check In-Reply-To: <200003282351.SAA00448@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: What's the exact message? It sounds probably that you need to replace the NVRAM, around $20. Look for the NVRAM faq on the 'net for better info on it. On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > After work today I hung a DG Walkabout terminal off serial A of the SUN > box. Self test reports that the EEPROM has failed. I will pull the board > and hunt for the chip later this evening but what does this mean for me? > Does it mean I simply replace the chip or is there info on the chip now > that is not reconstructable? Answers a lot of questions. > > Incidentally, the chip almost invariably passes diags and allows a boot if > you VERY quickly cycle power to the machine. I don't know why it is but > it works even if it is a horrible thing to do to a computer. > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Technical Services > Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. > 1979B Hendersonville Road > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days > 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 28 18:05:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <00cb01bf990a$227e79e0$03e893c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Mar 28, 0 08:11:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1924 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000329/c01a4fe4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 28 18:16:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <00cc01bf990a$232df3c0$03e893c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Mar 28, 0 11:44:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3403 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000329/2dc561d9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 28 18:18:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <00cd01bf990a$24547260$03e893c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Mar 28, 0 11:47:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 360 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000329/1ff585f0/attachment.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Mar 28 18:36:17 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Sparq fails EEprom check In-Reply-To: <200003282351.SAA00448@lexington.ioa.net> from "Technoid@cheta.net" at "Mar 28, 2000 06:50:46 pm" Message-ID: <200003290036.TAA01596@bg-tc-ppp479.monmouth.com> > After work today I hung a DG Walkabout terminal off serial A of the SUN > box. Self test reports that the EEPROM has failed. I will pull the board > and hunt for the chip later this evening but what does this mean for me? > Does it mean I simply replace the chip or is there info on the chip now > that is not reconstructable? Answers a lot of questions. > > Incidentally, the chip almost invariably passes diags and allows a boot if > you VERY quickly cycle power to the machine. I don't know why it is but > it works even if it is a horrible thing to do to a computer. > Search out the sun eeprom faq and it'll have all the info on the SGS thompson chip, reprogramming it etc. Sounds like the battery on the chip is weak and is lasting through only short reboots. Bill From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Mar 28 18:28:51 2000 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Sparq fails EEprom check In-Reply-To: <200003282351.SAA00448@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <000401bf9915$c23242e0$0a02f2c7@neptune> > After work today I hung a DG Walkabout terminal off serial A > of the SUN > box. Self test reports that the EEPROM has failed. I will > pull the board > and hunt for the chip later this evening but what does this > mean for me? > Does it mean I simply replace the chip or is there info on > the chip now > that is not reconstructable? Answers a lot of questions. > Most likely the NVRAM has run out of juice. You need to replace it, but you lost the ethernet address, settings, etc. Check out the SUN NVRAM faq for more info http://www.sunhelp.org Ram From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Mar 28 18:30:57 2000 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: SUNOS 5.4 Root Password In-Reply-To: <20000328225707.15483.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <000501bf9916$0d3a0660$0a02f2c7@neptune> > > You mean 512-byte block size. The "standard" size is 2048 > bytes, but some > Unix boxes require 512 bytes. Some SCSI CD-ROM drives (e.g., > Plextor) have > a jumper setting for this. Some (e.g., Toshiba) have an > undocumented set > of solder pads that can be bridged for this. > Take a look at the SUN CDROM faq as it tells you how to overcome the 512-byte block size so that you can hook up one of the "Standard" SCSI CDROMs. I believe the faq is at http://www.sunhelp.org Ram From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Mar 28 18:40:03 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: VaxStation 1, Mac 0... In-Reply-To: <10003282107.ZM18666@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <000328115111.224007ca@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000328194003.009f9730@mail.30below.com> Well, of all the VAX parts I got, I pieced together a VaxStation 3100 M38 w/32M RAM, the 2M 8Plane Video Card, RZ25L primary & RZ24L secondary drives (anyone have extra of those little H.D. rubber-bumper footie things??? ;-) and my buddy ordered the external SCSI cable necessary to run the CD-Rom... so I hooked it all up over the weekend, including a 20" sync-on-green Mac-based Philips multisync monitor, turned everything on, heard the beautiful hum of 2 hard drives and ..................... watched the monitor go all wacky because it couldn't sync up correctly to the DEC. :-( I could tell that the DEC was going thru diagnostics, because (from what I could see thru that earthquake of a display) it looked like the one-liner B...A...9...8... type of line I've heard folks describe here (but have not yet seen in captivity myself... ;-) So, I was just about to ask the list about how to go about hooking up a PeeCee monitor to a DEC, when my friend sent me an email for this system: DEC Alpha 3000 Model 300, 2 each 2Gig H.D., 64Meg RAM, 19" Monitor, all for $250USD. Everything I've seen so far makes this sound like a good deal, but I am assuming that: 1) the DEC monitor should sync up fine to the VaxStation... 2) I could pull 1 2Gig out and put it in a VaxStation... Or do I still need to figure out what kind of doohickey will make the DEC sync up to a PeeCee monitor? This is gonna be sooooo kewl... ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From Technoid at cheta.net Tue Mar 28 19:01:30 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Sparq fails EEprom check In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200003290101.UAA18673@lexington.ioa.net> In , on 03/28/00 at 08:01 PM, Aaron Christopher Finney said: >What's the exact message? It sounds probably that you need to replace the >NVRAM, around $20. Look for the NVRAM faq on the 'net for better info on >it. That is my guess exactly after examining the board. The only non-volitile chip I saw on that board was a real time chip ala 'Dallas' except this one is another make. I will just cut the box off the chip and replace the batt with a great big clone bat (aa+aa) that will keep the chip for life. That is my plan anyway. I have done it to Dallas clocks without problems. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 28 20:03:46 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: VaxStation 1, Mac 0... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000328194003.009f9730@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Mar 28, 2000 07:40:03 PM Message-ID: <200003290203.SAA03558@shell1.aracnet.com> > DEC Alpha 3000 Model 300, 2 each 2Gig H.D., 64Meg RAM, 19" Monitor, all for > $250USD. Everything I've seen so far makes this sound like a good deal, but > I am assuming that: > > 1) the DEC monitor should sync up fine to the VaxStation... > 2) I could pull 1 2Gig out and put it in a VaxStation... Um, I've got a *Better* idea. Add some more RAM to the 3000/300, I believe it takes 72-pin True Parity RAM (at least the 3000/300LX does) and cluster it to the VS3100 (run it headless). The 3000/300 is dog slow, but is still faster than the VAX even with only 64MB. > Or do I still need to figure out what kind of doohickey will make the DEC > sync up to a PeeCee monitor? DEC made a cable just for this, I'm not sure where to get one though. > This is gonna be sooooo kewl... ;-) :^) Zane From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Mar 28 17:48:44 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Altos machines References: <76.279951c.2610295a@aol.com> Message-ID: <001901bf9925$d1ad52e0$b0e993c3@proteus> Hi, > 3rd Generation > > Then there were the Brown floor towers, Altos II & III.... The one we had at work (I'm pretty sure now it was a "III") was white, well a creamy white anyway. Any idea why this should be? >....I believe there were machines that continued the 680xx processor >line too.... Hmm, do you recall any model numbers (68K based systems are much more interesting to me than x86 based ones on the whole)? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From broth at heathers.stdio.com Tue Mar 28 20:39:46 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: iOpener References: <20000328212921.5707.qmail@web616.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38E16CE4.9339F5A0@heathers.stdio.com> Its interesting to note that CC is backlogged with orders for so long when I have my order in Comp USA and so far as of today there is only two orders against their next shipment of 42 and one of those is mine. Regardless, I hate both of those outlets... I'm sure I'll never see it. Brian. Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > Personally, when and if mine ever shows up at CC, then I'll be paying with > > *cash*. > > Don't sweat it. NP has already said that only units ordered directly > from them are subject to automatic account activation on the credit card > that ordered it. Fair or not; legal or not; that is their policy. Units > ordered through CC are not activated until plugged into the phone system > and turned on. After all, they ship those whenever and they sit around > at CC until they are bought (if they weren't 1000's of units backlogged ;-) > There's no way to regulate that. > > The bad news is that NP is explictly shipping to direct customers in > preference to CC customers. Mine is still on backorder through CC and > likely will be for weeks. I'm number 10 out of 100 at my store alone. > There are six stores within driving distance. They have received two > units in two weeks. :-( > > The only good news is that units with a 21-Mar-2000 manufacture date appear > to be unmodified. Who knows what the future may bring. For the $106 mine > will cost (with tax), I'll take the risk that I have to remove epoxy or > solder in a header. > > -ethan > > ===== > Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to > vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com > > The original webpage address is still going away. The > permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ > > See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Mar 28 15:46:21 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Sparq fails EEprom check In-Reply-To: <200003290036.TAA01596@bg-tc-ppp479.monmouth.com> References: <200003282351.SAA00448@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000328214621.0121d9ec@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 07:36 PM 3/28/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Sounds like the battery on the chip is weak and is lasting through only >short reboots. > >Bill ...and in that case, it is imperative that you try to recover the info on the chip before it dies completely. Type 'n' to enter the forth mode, and type ok .idprom Write down everything that is dumped to the screen; you'll need it. Note the spaces between the zeros; a string of zeroed bytes will be output as "0 0 0", not "00 00 00"; in other words, "0e fe 0 f" is "0e fe 00 0f", not "0e fe 0f". It is always good advice to save this info from any Sun machine before the NVRAM dies. Carlos. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 28 21:33:46 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <38E16CE4.9339F5A0@heathers.stdio.com> from "Brian Roth" at Mar 28, 2000 09:39:46 PM Message-ID: <200003290333.TAA10049@shell1.aracnet.com> > Its interesting to note that CC is backlogged with orders for so long when I > have my order in Comp USA and so far as of today there is only two orders > against their next shipment of 42 and one of those is mine. Regardless, I hate > both of those outlets... I'm sure I'll never see it. > > Brian. They're "selling" them at CompUSA? I thought CC was the only one to carry the iOpener. I was just looking at a web board on the iOpener, sounds like CC must have a truely frightening backlog of these things. Zane From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Mar 28 22:03:12 2000 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Altos machines References: <000901bf9603$61af2600$92e893c3@proteus> Message-ID: <38E18080.72AF1A11@dragonsweb.org> Peter Pachla wrote: > > Does anyone have any pointers to sites on the web which cover Altos > machines? I've done a search on Yahoo and a couple of other places and > turned up nothing. > > I'm particularly interested in information on the Unix systems they were > making around 1990 - we had one at work, an i386 in a tower case. Not PC > compatible IIRC, possibly called an "Altos III" or something similar. > > While I'm on the subject, would anyone in the UK have one of these they want > rid of? > > TTFN - Pete. > > -- > Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. > Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > > peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk > -- Try the sites listed at: http://www.acersupport.com/ess/html/a3000.html In particular, http://www.cpiinc.com/altos/altos.html has information on a lot of the machines discussed in this thread. jbdigriz From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Mar 28 23:29:26 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Classic computing stops in Boston area In-Reply-To: ; from thompson@mail.athenet.net on Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 06:14:18PM -0600 References: <20000328190147.28498.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <20000329002926.A8346@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 06:14:18PM -0600, Paul Thompson wrote: > I will be in Burlington MA next week on business, with a fair amount of > off hours time off. I have heard rumors of electronics shop(s) in the > vicinity of MIT having an interesting selection of old DEC or other > classic computing hardware. Also isn't one of the computer museums in that > area? It *used* to be that Eli Heffron & Sons (now renamed E.L.I. since Eli retired) had an awesome selection of DEC stuff. And it was a total mess too, so poking around looking for buried treasure was very satisfying. Last time I checked it out though, they'd switched over to workstation stuff so it was nowhere near as much fun. But it might be worth a try anyway, they still advertise VAXish stuff in the Processor. They're at 139 Hampshire St. in Cambridge, near Inman Square which unfortunately doesn't have a subway station (plenty of busses though). It would be kind of a long walk from the Kendall Square red line stop (or whatever they're calling it now, Cambridge Center or some such thing? the one between Central and Charles unless they've renamed those too). John J. Meshna in Lynn used to be a great junk shop too, that was just general electronics and not computers in particular. No idea if they're still in business. I used to go there by bicycle from Cambridge when I was a kid, talk about a long depressing ride, but it was a great shop. John Wilson D Bit From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 28 16:38:16 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: PDP11/23 More dumb questions In-Reply-To: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com "Re: PDP11/23 More dumb questions" (Mar 28, 15:25) References: <000328152520.224007e0@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <10003282338.ZM18812@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 28, 15:25, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >> >M7195 > >> > >> 128 kbyte RAM > > >It's actually a MXV11-B Multifunction card, with 128KB RAM, and ... > > >> It's also particularly confusing, because you evidently have no serial > >> line cards nor disk controllers in the backplane. I have no idea > >> how you even got the ODT prompt out of the machine. > > >... the MXV11-B has two SLUs, of the same type as a DLV11. > > Yeah, that makes more sense. I still don't know how his machine is > supposed to boot from disk without a disk controller, though! Ah, that's the magic part :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 28 16:46:55 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: SUNOS 5.4 Root Password In-Reply-To: Dwight Elvey "Re[2]: SUNOS 5.4 Root Password" (Mar 28, 12:38) References: <200003282038.MAA21488@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <10003282346.ZM18818@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 28, 12:38, Dwight Elvey wrote: > It is OK to call the 'ok' the open-boot prompt. I knew it had a proper name, but I didn't remember until later. Some of us still regularly call it "the new prompt" :-) > Forth is the hardware > persons secret tool, don't tell software types, they won't understand. Oh, I don't know. I've got software written in Forth, such as my PAL assembler. Though come to think of it, that's not really a software type's thing, is it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Mar 28 16:37:08 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Parallel port hard drives?" (Mar 28, 19:14) References: Message-ID: <10003282337.ZM18808@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 28, 19:14, Tony Duell wrote: > The other thing is that when 96 tpi drives were in common use, some (lesser) > manufactuerers fitted the narrow head to all drives (even 48 tpi ones!). > Or at least some system builders/OEMs did. I have heard rumours that a > well-known BBC micro supplier sold 40 track, 80 track, and 40/80 > switchable drives. They were actually all the same (80 track, 96 tpi) > mechanisms. The '40 track' ones had been modified to double-step, and the > switchable ones had this mod controlled by the switch. Canon mechanisms, by any chance? or Chinon? > Needless to say, these '40 track' drives can correctly read '40 track' > disks that have been overwritten by 96 tpi drives (since the head in such > a drive only 'sees' the narrower 96-tpi-like track anyway), but what they > can't do is overwrite disks formatted or written on real 48 tpi drives. > Don't ask how I got to sort this out! Yuk! I can imagine :-) > The other question, of course, is how reliable do you need it to be. > > For example, the last time I wrote a 40 track disk in an 80 track (96 > tpi) drive was when I wrote a TRS-80 Model 4 boot disk on this linux box > (which has a 1.2Mbyte 96 tpi drive). I did the following : yes, i do things like that quite often. But not for anything I want to keep (not the one written in the 80-track drive, anyway) because you never know if the drive you use next year will be the same... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From thomas.h.lindberg at se.abb.com Wed Mar 29 01:47:09 2000 From: thomas.h.lindberg at se.abb.com (thomas.h.lindberg@se.abb.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: remove Message-ID: remove From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Mar 29 01:05:33 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Aaack, I've been bitten again In-Reply-To: <001901bf9925$d1ad52e0$b0e993c3@proteus> References: <76.279951c.2610295a@aol.com> Message-ID: Digging around in junk bins has its hazards. I was poking away, sticking my hands where they didn't belong, and ZAP, I got bit. Nasty looking thing, in fact it appears to be some sort of horrible nest. One of the big ones is a C64, then a 1541 got me, even the bulky old printer managed to latch on. I figured my only hope for a antidote is to take the whole box home and analyze it. The swelling (my garage walls) hasn't gone down yet, but I have heard eBay is good for reducing it a bit, plus tomorrow is trash day,,,, ;) From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Wed Mar 29 02:55:04 2000 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z Message-ID: >> IIRC at least one of the RML winchester systems was a box about the size >> of a 380Z with a PSU, ST506-interfaced drive and a SASI-ST506 interface >> card. I assume the 380Z interface was a SASI host adapter or something. that sounds like what I maybe have.... never seen a 380Z so I don't know. I've got five or six 480Z machines though, three or four of them with network interfaces, and then two big black metal cabinets - one houses the hard drive, and from memory the other contains either controller logic or floppy drives (these things have been sitting in sotrage for the last 4 years, so it's been a while since I've seen them!) pretty nifty stuff though, I must dig them all out again some day... (they were given to me along with my Diamond wordprocessor, which was the main find, so I only ever powered up the 480's to check that they could talk to the disk unit before they got stored...) someday I will have the time and space to fire these things up again and have a serious play around with them... cheers Jules > From jmd at infinet.com Wed Mar 29 03:19:09 2000 From: jmd at infinet.com (jmd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Sparq fails EEprom check References: <200003290101.UAA18673@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <38E1CA8D.5C8176D1@infinet.com> Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > > In , on 03/28/00 > > at 08:01 PM, Aaron Christopher Finney said: > > >What's the exact message? It sounds probably that you need to replace the > >NVRAM, around $20. Look for the NVRAM faq on the 'net for better info on > >it. > > That is my guess exactly after examining the board. The only non-volitile > chip I saw on that board was a real time chip ala 'Dallas' except this one > is another make. I will just cut the box off the chip and replace the > batt with a great big clone bat (aa+aa) that will keep the chip for life. > > That is my plan anyway. I have done it to Dallas clocks without > problems. I bought mine from www.mouser.com. $20 a year ago. or sales@mouser.com hth jeff From broth at heathers.stdio.com Wed Mar 29 06:05:35 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: iOpener References: <200003290333.TAA10049@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <38E1F18F.62FFEC23@heathers.stdio.com> Yup. I stopped by the other day and confirmed that my order was still in their system. Brian. healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > Its interesting to note that CC is backlogged with orders for so long when I > > have my order in Comp USA and so far as of today there is only two orders > > against their next shipment of 42 and one of those is mine. Regardless, I hate > > both of those outlets... I'm sure I'll never see it. > > > > Brian. > > They're "selling" them at CompUSA? I thought CC was the only one to carry > the iOpener. > > I was just looking at a web board on the iOpener, sounds like CC must have a > truely frightening backlog of these things. > > Zane From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Mar 29 06:09:30 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Prime 2455 In-Reply-To: <00ce01bf990a$26953aa0$03e893c3@proteus> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:04:07 +0100 Peter Pachla wrote: > Whilst digging out some 380Z manuals I found a "Prime 2455" I'd forgotten I > had.... > Anyone in the UK in a position to help? I used a Prime P750 way back at Westfield College, London in the early 1980s. If you need any help with using PRIMOS, let me know. Anybody else on the list use Software Tools, from Georgia Tech, on a Prime? -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Wed Mar 29 08:17:02 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: PDP11/23 More dumb questions Message-ID: <001601bf9989$74e383e0$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> Well . . . after another few more hours of exploration : The M8059 YA card wasn't that at all. It is actually an M8639 YA. I need glasses . . and stronger light. Anyway, Control C doesn't work and I can no longer repeat getting to an @ prompt, instead getting a lot of backward ? characters at times. I'm now using the console port but have lost confidence in the terminal and serial cable completely. I discovered the baud setting control for the ports after I blew the dust out of the little window. Set the port to 4800 baud, the default setting on the VT220. All for no consistent result. Tried 110 baud on both with no result I switched to a straight though 25 wire serial cable and got absolutely no communication, . . added a null modem and got a little garbage . . changed from the default VT200 mode 7 bit controls to some of the others . . . all to no result. I think the PDP is booting OK judging by the sounds it makes but there is nothing on the terminal screen. The terminal seems to do everything OK when in local mode. I have another VT220 tucked away. Trying that is all I can think of at this point. I should see something on the screen even if the hard drive or OS have a problem shouldn't I? Is there a PDP11's for Dummies book? Hans -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, 29 March 2000 17:45 Subject: Re: PDP11/23 More dumb questions >On Mar 28, 15:25, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >> >> >M7195 >> >> >> >> 128 kbyte RAM >> >> >It's actually a MXV11-B Multifunction card, with 128KB RAM, and ... >> >> >> It's also particularly confusing, because you evidently have no serial >> >> line cards nor disk controllers in the backplane. I have no idea >> >> how you even got the ODT prompt out of the machine. >> >> >... the MXV11-B has two SLUs, of the same type as a DLV11. >> >> Yeah, that makes more sense. I still don't know how his machine is >> supposed to boot from disk without a disk controller, though! > >Ah, that's the magic part :-) > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Mar 29 07:48:12 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? References: Message-ID: <001b01bf9985$704603c0$0400c0a8@winbook> I think we're homing in on the target topic now . . . Please see embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 11:02 AM Subject: Re: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? > On Sun, 26 Mar 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I'm in agreement, pretty much with what's been said here. Please see > > embedded comments below. > > Yes, but, given that the goal is to write a 48TPI 360K diskette, the > > coercivity will be the same, since the media are the same. It's worth > > Are you saying that a 300 Oerstedt diskette is the SAME as a 600 Oerstedt > diskette?? Is TRI-X camera film the same as Pan-X, also? > No, I'm not. I'm saying that the original problem, (assuming that i ever grapsped it in the first place) was to write a 48TPI diskette. That means that the 96TPI diskettes are not part of either the problem or the solution. What's under study is the effect of writing a 48TPI diskette in a drive intended for 96TPI use. Since there are no 600 or 720 Oerstedt diskettes that are part of this problem, they need not be considered. Nevertheless, it's probably helpful to understand WHY the different drives and the media that go in them are important, in fact, definitive, to the discussion. > > > target medium is the 300-Oerstedt 48TPI 5.25" diskette. The issue was that > > the old 48TPI disk drive had trouble reading the 48TPI diskette written on a > > 1.2MB 96TPI drive. The reason is not the media, it's the drive. Why? > > It's because the medium is the same physical diskette. It cancels out of > > the equation. > > The symptoms described (inability to read a diskette written in a 1.2M > drive, supposedly as a 360K) match TWO possibilities: > 1) failure to bulk-erase and format in the 1.2M, when the diskette had > residual 1/3mm wide tracks. > 2) use of a 600 Oerstedt diskette when trying to create a 360K. > > Either (OR BOTH!) of those mistakes would give the symptoms described. > > I fail to see how the media could be "cancels out of the equation". The > magnetic coercivity of the diskette would not magically be altered into > the correct one by any action of the drive. Setting the ASA dial on the > camera to 400 does NOT convert Pan-X film into TRI-X. > It cancels out because one wishes to write 48TPI on 48TPI-specified- media but do so in a 96TPI HD drive. > > > There are folks who enjoy claiming that their risky way of doing things is > > better than paying the 10% extra for the correct product. > > Agreed > > > > Let's try to keep the 3.5" diskettes out of the picture for now. The 720K > > Mentioned simply because: > the gap in coercivity of the different 5.25" diskettes is SIGNIFICANT. > The gap in coercivity of the different 3.5" diskettes is much less. > Therefore any success in using wrong diskettes in 3.5" should not be > extrapolated to apply to 5.25" > I just wanted to keep them out of the discussion, since there are "720K" diskettes in the 5-1/4" IBM-world with which they could be confused. I don't believe that they actually format to a 720K capacity in applications outside the "IBM"-PC world. They would, I guess, if one formatted them with 9 sectors of 512 bytes per track. > > > Some of the controllers switched the data rate and in other cases the drive > > switched speed. > > Because it is on topic for collectors: The original IBM AT switched data > transfer rate. Many later went for dual spindle speed. Both methods > seemed to work OK. The Weltec 250Kbps/180RPM 1.2M was trying to stretch > things a little too far. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Mar 29 07:53:18 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? References: <000b01bf97b5$2c6d5260$39483cd1@winbook> <20000327144343.B1683@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <002501bf9986$2561d860$0400c0a8@winbook> Gawd! Did I really say that? It's not what I meant! plz see comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 12:43 PM Subject: Re: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? > On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 10:02:16AM -0800, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > On Sun, 26 Mar 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I'm in agreement, pretty much with what's been said here. Please see > > > embedded comments below. > > > Yes, but, given that the goal is to write a 48TPI 360K diskette, the > > > coercivity will be the same, since the media are the same. It's worth > > > > Are you saying that a 300 Oerstedt diskette is the SAME as a 600 Oerstedt > > diskette?? Is TRI-X camera film the same as Pan-X, also? > NO! What I mean is that the problem as stated was to write a 48TPI diskette intended for consumption by a C-64 in a drive intended for use with a 96TPI HD diskette. There's a lot of folklore about what works, and what's supposed to work, and how. Much of this is not only confusing, but also incorrect. > > I really think you guys are just miscommunicating. I too was surprised at > Dick's comment that you can use 360 KB and 1.2 MB disks interchangeably, > since I know it's not true. But I really don't think he meant it, especially > since his posts since then have concentrated on track width problems rather > than the bit rate within the track. > > John Wilson > D Bit From edick at idcomm.com Wed Mar 29 08:12:36 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? References: Message-ID: <003401bf9988$d7cb7360$0400c0a8@winbook> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Monday, March 27, 2000 12:10 PM Subject: Re: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? > > I'm a firm believer in transporting data on portable hard drives rather than > > floppies, since they're MUCH less error prone and MUCH faster and handier. > > Well, provided the system and the OS in use support such parallel port > drives, they can be a good idea. But a heck of a lot more machines > support floppy disks... > That's quite true, Tony, but for many files, it takes a heck of a lot more time and floppies than portable/parallel port drives. I have mentioned that my parallel port interface is a parallel<=>SCSI adapter, haven't I. Those are a mite more useful, methinks, than the parallel port-only drives, but that's just my opinion. I've seen some pretty well-done interfaces for parallel port drives, though. They're more practical for PC's for which drivers are readily avaliable than for, say, a PDP-5, for which the vendor probably doesn't provide a driver. > > [...] > > > Those are different drives and have the same head gap size problems as the > ^^^^^^^^ > Strictly 'head width'. The head gap determines the bit density along the > track that can be reliably read. > > > 1.2MB variety. The diskettes for those (720K 5-1/4" floppies) were also a > > class apart from the run of the mill. Nevertheless, the difference that was > > '720K 5.25" disks', meaning 96tpi (80 cylinder) standard double density > disks can be reliably used as 360K disks (either in real 360K drives or > with the conditions that I specified in my last message). The reverse is > not always true -- it appears that some '360K' disks generate too much > noise to be reliably read by the narrower head in a 96tpi drive (I have > seen this far too often). > > > essential was the drive, read/write hardware. This included both the 1.2MB > > drives and the 720K drives in 5.25" size. The media had to be different to > > support the higher flux reversal density, and the heads had to be more > > The '720K' disk is the same coercivity as the '360K disk'. > > > sensitive to flux changes so that they could be driven at levels that > > wouldn't engender too much crosstalk. Unfortunately, the heads with which > > 48TPI drives were normally equipped were not capable of this sensitivity, > > given the original task for which they were designed. > > > > Later in the evolution of the technology, media were alleged to be more or > > less the same, and drives eventually became the same, in the spirit of > > economy, and one wasn't told whether the drives he was buying were capable > > No reputable manufacturer of floppy disks ever used the same media for > normal ('DD') and 'HD' disks. Period. It plain wouldn't have worked. > > Reputable floppy drive manufactuers, like Teac (but there are many more) > put wider heads into 48tpi drives right up to the end. Some lesser > manufacters (I don't have any names, but I _know_ this occured) put the > narrow heads into everything. This caused all sorts of problems. > > > > of the higher flux-reversal or track density or not. Likewise, one wasn't > > guaranteed that the media weren't the high-coercivity type, since it didn't > > hurt the older style of drives to use it. All this has been stirred into > > the mix of confusion. I would caution against drawing any conclusions from > > evidence gathered from 48TPI drives after 1.2MB drives became available. > > The manufacturers were more interested in reducing their diversity than in > > making drives you couldn't use as "the other" sort. > > See above. And look at the service manuals for some floppy drives. You'll > find out which parts _are_ specified as different between 48 tpi nd 96 > tpi versions. Of course if you use no-name floppy drives then you > probably can't get the service manuals, but then you're asking for > trouble by doing this anyway... > > > > No, it doesn't rely on the higher coercivity, not when it's writing single > > > or double density. It only does that for High Density. > > > > > First of all, it's NEVER writing or reading single density. Secondly, the > > "official" certified media for 96tpi use were always claimed to be of > > greater coercivity than the ones intended for 48tpi use. I've got boxes of > > Can you quote a specification which confirms that, because I sure can't > find one. The '720K' disks (aka Quad Density, 80 track 5.25", etc) worked > very reliably as 40 track (360K, etc) disks in every machine I tried them > in. Going back to some quite early 5.25" drives. > > > them to prove that. .. cancelled checks, too ... The fact that so many > > I am not disputing they're different -- trying to use 48tpi disks in 96 > tpi drives (even at standard densities -- your '720K') is not reliable in > my experience. The reverse has never given me problems. Unlike using HD > disks for anything other than HD formats in HD drives, which never works > properly. > > > people have "gotten away" (including me, by the way) with writing "ordinary" > > media at the higher track density only serves to confuse the casual > > observer. > > > > As manufacturers found that they could build all drives with the same heads > > and electronics at lower cost than building two or three different drives > > Reputable manufactuers, who sold service manuals for their drives, did > not do this. > > > for a given applicaition, they started using the same heads in as large a > > portion of their drives as they could. It was just good business. The > > media makers began capitalizing on these same economic decisions, and > > started filling their orders with "better" emulsions, and selling the excess > > into their lower-grade market. > > Again, brand name 360K and 1,2M disks have different coercivities. This > applies to ever box of such disks that I've ever bought (including ones > I bought a year or so ago). No-name disks may well get this wrong, but my > data is too valuable to wast time with those... > > -tony > > From ernestls at home.com Wed Mar 29 08:12:26 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Swap Meet In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000315082338.0211d730@pc> Message-ID: <000401bf9988$d03fb020$59a40b18@C721564-A.sttln1.wa.home.com> I dragged my girlfriend to the swap meet also -no small feat for a Saturday morning, and I was amazed that there were so many people there. It was packed shoulder to shoulder with people, and I actually carried hopes that I might be able to casually chat with some of the vendors about which system they would recommend to a beginner but that was a dream. I was also hoping that there would be more vintage computer stuff but aside from a few Kaypro's, and a box of Commodore64 motherboards, there wasn't much old computer stuff. One nice man did give me a cool little 8" DATASAAB video monitor for free, and my girlfriend bought a cassette recorder but that was the extent of our purchases. I walked around looking at all of the old ham radios, and wished that I knew more about them. I think that if I could have found the right person to talk to, I would have bought a radio of some kind, even if I don't know how to use them yet. Some of these old radios looked like art pieces to me, in a mad scientist sort of way. We stayed at the meet for about an hour or so, and decided that we had had enough of the wall to wall people. I had fun but I doubt that I'll go again, unless I learn more about ham radio stuff. I'll hold out for a vintage computer fest instead. Ernest -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Foust Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 6:24 AM To: Bruce Lane Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Swap Meet At 09:02 PM 3/14/00 -0800, Bruce Lane wrote: > For the record, I sold all the Exabyte drives (the 8500's are holding here >for checks from the purchasers -- thanks, guys!) and the small UPS I had. I >don't think any of the buyers (with three exceptions) were classiccmp'ers, >but all business was appreciated. My check will be sent out today, sorry about the delay... - John From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Mar 29 08:39:28 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Aaack, I've been bitten again In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Mar 28, 0 11:05:33 pm" Message-ID: <200003291439.GAA13712@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Digging around in junk bins has its hazards. I was poking away, sticking my ::hands where they didn't belong, and ZAP, I got bit. Nasty looking thing, in ::fact it appears to be some sort of horrible nest. One of the big ones is a ::C64, then a 1541 got me, even the bulky old printer managed to latch on. I ::figured my only hope for a antidote is to take the whole box home and ::analyze it. The swelling (my garage walls) hasn't gone down yet, but I have ::heard eBay is good for reducing it a bit, plus tomorrow is trash day,,,, ;) And as a Commodore owner, I must warn you that Commodore bites can carry hobbyitis, demo inflammation and swelling of the game-playing and music lobes of the head. The only treatment is another Commodore, so I'm still recovering. ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- The fact that it works is immaterial. -- L. Ogborn ------------------------- From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Wed Mar 29 08:41:14 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Classic computing stops in Boston area In-Reply-To: <20000329002926.A8346@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "Mar 29, 0 00:29:26 am" Message-ID: <200003291441.GAA07682@oa.ptloma.edu> ::On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 06:14:18PM -0600, Paul Thompson wrote: ::> I will be in Burlington MA next week on business, with a fair amount of ::> off hours time off. I have heard rumors of electronics shop(s) in the ::> vicinity of MIT having an interesting selection of old DEC or other ::> classic computing hardware. Also isn't one of the computer museums in that ::> area? How about stuff like that in the Inland Empire, California? Anyone know any interesting places to hit? I'll even travel to L.A. (shiver) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- Xerox never comes up with anything original. ------------------------------- From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Mar 29 08:54:27 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: PDP11/23 More dumb questions In-Reply-To: <001601bf9989$74e383e0$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> from Olminkhof at "Mar 30, 2000 00:17:02 am" Message-ID: <200003291454.JAA03358@bg-tc-ppp122.monmouth.com> > Well . . . after another few more hours of exploration : > > The M8059 YA card wasn't that at all. It is actually an M8639 YA. > I need glasses . . and stronger light. > > Anyway, Control C doesn't work and I can no longer repeat getting to an @ > prompt, instead getting a lot of backward ? characters at times. > I'm now using the console port but have lost confidence in the terminal and > serial cable completely. I discovered the baud setting control for the ports > after I blew the dust out of the little window. Set the port to 4800 baud, > the default setting on the VT220. All for no consistent result. Tried 110 > baud on both with no result Try 9600 baud no parity 7 bit... Try 1200 baud no parity 7 bit. Bill From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Mar 29 09:48:48 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: PDP11/23 More dumb questions In-Reply-To: <001601bf9989$74e383e0$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: I've partially completed the scans of the MicroPDP/11 Technical Manual (no link page or Acrobat files yet) that you can find at: www.retrobytes.org/docs/dec/uPDPtm in TIFF format only. It probably has a lot of information that would be useful for you at this time... Cheers, Aaron On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Olminkhof wrote: > Well . . . after another few more hours of exploration : > > The M8059 YA card wasn't that at all. It is actually an M8639 YA. > I need glasses . . and stronger light. > > Anyway, Control C doesn't work and I can no longer repeat getting to an @ > prompt, instead getting a lot of backward ? characters at times. > I'm now using the console port but have lost confidence in the terminal and > serial cable completely. I discovered the baud setting control for the ports > after I blew the dust out of the little window. Set the port to 4800 baud, > the default setting on the VT220. All for no consistent result. Tried 110 > baud on both with no result > > I switched to a straight though 25 wire serial cable and got absolutely no > communication, . . added a null modem and got a little garbage . . changed > from the default VT200 mode 7 bit controls to some of the others . . . all > to no result. > > I think the PDP is booting OK judging by the sounds it makes but there is > nothing on the terminal screen. The terminal seems to do everything OK when > in local mode. > > I have another VT220 tucked away. Trying that is all I can think of at this > point. I should see something on the screen even if the hard drive or OS > have a problem shouldn't I? > > Is there a PDP11's for Dummies book? > > Hans > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Turnbull > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Wednesday, 29 March 2000 17:45 > Subject: Re: PDP11/23 More dumb questions > > > >On Mar 28, 15:25, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >> >> >M7195 > >> >> > >> >> 128 kbyte RAM > >> > >> >It's actually a MXV11-B Multifunction card, with 128KB RAM, and ... > >> > >> >> It's also particularly confusing, because you evidently have no serial > >> >> line cards nor disk controllers in the backplane. I have no idea > >> >> how you even got the ODT prompt out of the machine. > >> > >> >... the MXV11-B has two SLUs, of the same type as a DLV11. > >> > >> Yeah, that makes more sense. I still don't know how his machine is > >> supposed to boot from disk without a disk controller, though! > > > >Ah, that's the magic part :-) > > > >-- > > > >Pete Peter Turnbull > > Dept. of Computer Science > > University of York > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 29 10:11:36 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: PDP11/23 More dumb questions In-Reply-To: <10003282338.ZM18812@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > > Yeah, that makes more sense. I still don't know how his machine is > > supposed to boot from disk without a disk controller, though! > > Ah, that's the magic part :-) Only a PDP-11 would do this... Via a serial line! really, no joke. It was commonly done also the tu58 was serial. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Mar 29 11:24:35 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <38E16CE4.9339F5A0@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Brian Roth wrote: > Its interesting to note that CC is backlogged with orders for so long when I > have my order in Comp USA and so far as of today there is only two orders > against their next shipment of 42 and one of those is mine. Regardless, I hate > both of those outlets... I'm sure I'll never see it. My worry too. I still havent seen mine yet. Allison From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 29 12:03:06 2000 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Prime 2455 In-Reply-To: <00ce01bf990a$26953aa0$03e893c3@proteus> References: <00ce01bf990a$26953aa0$03e893c3@proteus> Message-ID: In article <00ce01bf990a$26953aa0$03e893c3@proteus>, Peter Pachla writes >Whilst digging out some 380Z manuals I found a "Prime 2455" I'd forgotten I >had.... > > >I'd like to have a bash at getting this going, but aside from needing OS >tapes (anyone help PLEASE?) the tape drive and hard drive have been removed >along with some sort of drive mounting tray. I have an external tape drive which I am told came from a Prime of some sort which you can have. I don't know what sort of tape it takes as I didn't get any with it. Perhaps someone else on the list could say whether it is any use to you. It has no external markings except for a sticker showing that it passed statutory testing in 1988. The drive itself is an Exabyte Model EXB 8200, does anyone recognise this? -- Regards Pete From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Mar 29 12:41:24 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Prime 2455 In-Reply-To: from Peter Joules at "Mar 29, 2000 07:03:06 pm" Message-ID: <200003291841.NAA03713@bg-tc-ppp748.monmouth.com> > In article <00ce01bf990a$26953aa0$03e893c3@proteus>, Peter Pachla > writes > >Whilst digging out some 380Z manuals I found a "Prime 2455" I'd forgotten I > >had.... > > > > > >I'd like to have a bash at getting this going, but aside from needing OS > >tapes (anyone help PLEASE?) the tape drive and hard drive have been removed > >along with some sort of drive mounting tray. > > I have an external tape drive which I am told came from a Prime of some > sort which you can have. I don't know what sort of tape it takes as I > didn't get any with it. Perhaps someone else on the list could say > whether it is any use to you. It has no external markings except for a > sticker showing that it passed statutory testing in 1988. The drive > itself is an Exabyte Model EXB 8200, does anyone recognise this? > -- > Regards > Pete > > It's an 8mm 112M Exabyte... www.exabyte.com. Works great with any SCSI single ended (usually) interface. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 29 11:58:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: <10003282337.ZM18808@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Mar 28, 0 10:37:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1376 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000329/58e9786b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 29 12:03:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: SUNOS 5.4 Root Password In-Reply-To: <10003282346.ZM18818@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Mar 28, 0 10:46:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1095 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000329/0e1e2d6d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 29 12:15:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: PDP11/23 More dumb questions In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Mar 29, 0 11:11:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 488 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000329/9e498652/attachment.ksh From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Mar 29 13:28:54 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: Swap Meet Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D63AA96D@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Went the the Hamfest at the Motorola Factory in Plantation (western Ft. Lauderdale) last weekend. From what I understand, it used to be a regular event but, now it's held infrequently. There were quite a few sellers there but, not too much computer stuff. I found a micro-based controller for $10. Looks like it was used for some kinda automated inspection or manufacturing system. The system consisted of 4 large wire-wrapped boards and 4 fairly large power supplies. There was some damage to the innards so, I bought it strictly for the parts. Got a ton of TTL devices and other goodies out of it. Also found a "NIDA" Counter / Timer. It's an educational tool used to teach digital logic. It's in great condition considering it came from the school board. In my experience, most of the stuff from the schools is pretty beat up. Anyway, it's very cool and only cost me $5. I had other comittments so only stayed until 8:00 AM. At that time, sellers and buyers were still filing in. Probably missed some good stuff but, oh well... Later, Steve Robertson > > We stayed at the meet for about an hour or so, and decided > that we had had > enough of the wall to wall people. I had fun but I doubt that > I'll go again, > unless I learn more about ham radio stuff. I'll hold out for a vintage > computer fest instead. > > Ernest -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000329/049b47eb/attachment.html From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Mar 29 19:37:27 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:27 2005 Subject: backup tapes Message-ID: Hello, fellow scroungers, After having formatted my system drive in error, I am putting back in my tape backup unit. I have gobs of 150 meg and 250 meg tapes, but am in need of 525 meg tapes ----------- DC6525 --------- for less that retail price (which at last report was $20-30 a pop). I would appreciate any leads . . . . Gary Hildebrand From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 29 14:10:54 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: PDP11/23 More dumb questions In-Reply-To: "Olminkhof" "Re: PDP11/23 More dumb questions" (Mar 30, 0:17) References: <001601bf9989$74e383e0$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <10003292110.ZM19615@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 30, 0:17, Olminkhof wrote: > Anyway, Control C doesn't work and I can no longer repeat getting to an @ > prompt, instead getting a lot of backward ? characters at times. > I'm now using the console port but have lost confidence in the terminal and > serial cable completely. I discovered the baud setting control for the ports > after I blew the dust out of the little window. Set the port to 4800 baud, > the default setting on the VT220. All for no consistent result. Tried 110 > baud on both with no result If the system is using the SLUs on the MXV11-B, the little window is meaningless, as the baud rate etc on the MXV11 has to be set by rejumpering several links, often with wire wrap. There's no handy way of connecting a selector switch. > I switched to a straight though 25 wire serial cable and got absolutely no > communication, . . added a null modem and got a little garbage . . changed > from the default VT200 mode 7 bit controls to some of the others . . . all > to no result. Try connecting directly to the 10-pin connector on the left side of the MXV11, start it up, and hit the HALT button. You should get an address and an ODT prompt. You should get another prompt every time you press RUN, if HALT is still pressed in. Assuming the panel is connected to the backplane correctly. The MXV11-B only supports 300/1200/9600/38400 baud. J9,J10,J11 control the setting for SLU0, J7,J8,J9 control SLU1 (the console port). 9600 is J9 to J10, and J8 to J9. J61 to J62 forces SLU1 to be the console. It's also possible that you have some kind of custom bootstrap in it. MXV11-Bs were sometimes sold without boot ROMs (the standrd ROM set is known as the B2 ROM set, and marked as such), and use the same software arrangement as the MRV11-D ROM board, so people were able to roll their own using information in the MRV11-D manual. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Mar 29 13:54:46 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Prime 2455 In-Reply-To: Bill Pechter "Re: Prime 2455" (Mar 29, 13:41) References: <200003291841.NAA03713@bg-tc-ppp748.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <10003292054.ZM19599@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 29, 13:41, Bill Pechter wrote: > > In article <00ce01bf990a$26953aa0$03e893c3@proteus>, Peter Pachla > > writes > > I have an external tape drive which I am told came from a Prime of some > > sort which you can have. I don't know what sort of tape it takes as I > > didn't get any with it. Perhaps someone else on the list could say > > whether it is any use to you. It has no external markings except for a > > sticker showing that it passed statutory testing in 1988. The drive > > itself is an Exabyte Model EXB 8200, does anyone recognise this? > It's an 8mm 112M Exabyte... www.exabyte.com. Works great with any > SCSI single ended (usually) interface. I have two here, one sold originally as a PDP-11/83 add-on, and one from a Pr1me. I upgraded the firmware in the older one using code from www.exabyte.com, and both work very nicely on my Unix machines and an Acorn Archimedes. They don't do compression and the standard 8200 doesn't have the high-speed search that the 8200S has, but they handle a reasonable data rate and hold around 2.2GB per tape. Lots of people use 8mm video tape; I prefer to use proper data cartridges, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Mar 29 14:56:49 2000 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: 360K in a 1.2M drive (was: Parallel port hard drives? In-Reply-To: <001b01bf9985$704603c0$0400c0a8@winbook> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000329155649.0098de40@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: >I just wanted to keep them out of the discussion, since there are "720K" >diskettes in the 5-1/4" IBM-world with which they could be confused. I >don't believe that they actually format to a 720K capacity in applications >outside the "IBM"-PC world. They would, I guess, if one formatted them with >9 sectors of 512 bytes per track. Or how about 18 sectors of 256 bytes per track.... like on my CoCos (1 360K 5.25 & 2 720K 3.5" drives made for a *lot* of storage 10 years ago... :-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From klager at execpc.com Wed Mar 29 15:42:03 2000 From: klager at execpc.com (James Klager) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Zax ICD 378 for Z80 Message-ID: <38E278AA.6BC64861@execpc.com> I have been using a Zax in-circuit debugger and it has recently stopped working. As best as I can tell, the Zax corporation is no longer in existence. I'd like to either have my unit repaired or find a replacement. Any help out there? klager@execpc.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Mar 29 16:40:48 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: backup tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000329174048.34d7be4a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Gary, I just gave away a whole bag full. I had them sitting around for years and never used any of them. I'll see if the guy that I gave them to wants to part with any of them. Joe At 07:37 PM 3/29/00 -0600, you wrote: >Hello, fellow scroungers, > >After having formatted my system drive in error, I am putting back in my >tape backup unit. > >I have gobs of 150 meg and 250 meg tapes, but am in need of 525 meg tapes > >----------- DC6525 --------- > >for less that retail price (which at last report was $20-30 a pop). > >I would appreciate any leads . . . . > >Gary Hildebrand > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Mar 29 15:35:03 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Zax ICD 378 for Z80 In-Reply-To: <38E278AA.6BC64861@execpc.com> (message from James Klager on Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:42:03 -0600) References: <38E278AA.6BC64861@execpc.com> Message-ID: <20000329213503.22692.qmail@brouhaha.com> > As best as I can tell, the Zax corporation is no longer in existence. Not that it's of any consolation to you, but at least this shows that the free market works. I was forced to use Zax emulators for the Mitsubishi M37700 microcontrollers, and they were absolutely terrible. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 29 16:30:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Zax ICD 378 for Z80 In-Reply-To: <38E278AA.6BC64861@execpc.com> from "James Klager" at Mar 29, 0 03:42:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 770 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000329/be0fa6ce/attachment.ksh From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Mar 29 16:57:38 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: PDP11/23 More dumb questions References: <001601bf9989$74e383e0$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <38E28A62.BB9F4E8F@idirect.com> >Olminkhof wrote: > Well . . . after another few more hours of exploration : > > The M8059 YA card wasn't that at all. It is actually an M8639 YA. > I need glasses . . and stronger light. Jerome Fine replies: This makes a LOT more sense. Not only that, but the board is in the last one in the backplane which is where an RQDX1 must be - since there is no bus grant on the board to pass interrupts up the line. Not also that the M8639-YA is an upgraded RQDX1 (or at least that is what I have been told that the board should be called) and can handle both an RD51 and an RD52 hard disk drive. The RD51 is usually an ST506 drive which is 10 MBytes and is usually easy to spot because of the actuator arm on the port side of the drive (left hand side of the drive if you are behind the drive and the edge connectors are at the back and the front of the drive is facing forward) right at the front. Incidentally, I have been told to NEVER touch the actuator arm for any reason at all. The RD52 is usually (the are 2 other models which were not as popular) a Quantum 540. If either of these two drives are connected via some sort of cable arrangement to the M8639-YA, then that is correct. > Anyway, Control C doesn't work and I can no longer repeat getting to an @ > prompt, instead getting a lot of backward ? characters at times. > I'm now using the console port but have lost confidence in the terminal and > serial cable completely. I discovered the baud setting control for the ports > after I blew the dust out of the little window. Set the port to 4800 baud, > the default setting on the VT220. All for no consistent result. Tried 110 > baud on both with no result Since you had the @ character being displayed for some reason, that STRONGLY indicates that the VT220 was set correctly for the serial port that it was hooked to. The characters on the VT220 screen do not become displayed if the baud rate is extremely different from the correct setting - although they often are displayed if the baud rate is close. I would suggest the you try 9600 baud rather than 110 baud. > I switched to a straight though 25 wire serial cable and got absolutely no > communication, . . added a null modem and got a little garbage . . changed > from the default VT200 mode 7 bit controls to some of the others . . . all > to no result. If you are getting some characters with the null modem cable and NONE with the straight through cable, that is normal and to be expected. A null modem cable IS the standard to be used. If you seem to get a little bit of garbage, that may be an actual hardware problem OR more likely the wrong baud rate setting on the VT220. As stated above, garbage is often the result of an incorrect baud rate which is close. Rarely do you get any garbage at all if the baud rates between the serial port and the terminal are off by a large difference. As suggested above, try 9600 baud. > I think the PDP is booting OK judging by the sounds it makes but there is > nothing on the terminal screen. The terminal seems to do everything OK when > in local mode. Well, that seems to indicate that the VT220 is OK, but naturally you MUST put the terminal into ONLINE mode if the PDP-11 and the VT220 are going to communicate. > I have another VT220 tucked away. Trying that is all I can think of at this > point. I should see something on the screen even if the hard drive or OS > have a problem shouldn't I? Not necessarily. With some boot ROMs, the first thing to be displayed is the PDP-11 saying which OS has been booted. > Is there a PDP11's for Dummies book? YES! It is all blank pages. Sorry! If a PDP-11 is working, it is usually not too difficult (especially with RT-11) to type in HELP and see what commands can be executed. But if there is any trivial problem (like maybe you do not have a hard disk drive), it is extremely difficult to get going in the first place. See how setting the baud rate to 9600 for the VT220 works. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jpero at cgocable.net Wed Mar 29 12:18:27 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Swap Meet In-Reply-To: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D63AA96D@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <200003292314.e2TNEtj12349@admin.cgocable.net> > From: Steve Robertson > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Swap Meet > Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:28:54 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Also found a "NIDA" Counter / Timer. It's an educational tool used to teach > digital logic. It's in great condition considering it came from the school > board. In my experience, most of the stuff from the schools is pretty beat > up. Anyway, it's very cool and only cost me $5. My local schools still use NIDA software stuff. > Later, > Steve Robertson Wizard From Technoid at cheta.net Wed Mar 29 19:46:04 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: "New" prompt on Sun box In-Reply-To: <10003282346.ZM18818@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200003300144.UAA00333@lexington.ioa.net> I have tried the 'n' command and it says it is not a command. If I enter "new" it responds "cpu cache enabled" which is not what I wanted at all. Is it possible this Sparcstation 330 (sparc 4/300) does not have the 'new' prompt at all? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Wed Mar 29 16:40:56 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Altos machines References: <000901bf9603$61af2600$92e893c3@proteus> <38E18080.72AF1A11@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <02de01bf99f6$66935780$a9e993c3@proteus> Hi, > Try the sites listed at:.... Thanks, I'll go check them out. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Wed Mar 29 17:07:04 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: Message-ID: <02e001bf99f6$689282e0$a9e993c3@proteus> Hi, > I also have a real TXED manual.... Yes, we had one at school....just the one so I don't have it. >....And an original ZASM manual (an A5 size booklet). And >something on a 'Local viewdata system' which I've never >seen the software for. Never seen a ZASM manual. What's this "Local Viewdata System", I've never heard of that? >....other hand is does include support for a beeper in the keyboard >casing, which the 40 cloumn one does not. We were going to have a bash at wiring that up at school, but we never got around to it. > Most _audio_ machines kept the remote control on a different >connector from the audio I/O. Remember that normally plugging >something into the remote control socket opens an internal >switch, stopping the recorder.... >....'audio' connector, you'd need to have a special audio cable >with those pins shorted for normal audio recording/playback. ISTR the machine I was thinking of (I think it was a "Waltham") had a spring loaded plastic peg in the socket, which was pushed aside by the DIN plugs metal shroud when inserted. This operated a small switch inside the machine. However, the more I think about it the more I wonder whether that arrangement muted the internal loudspeaker rather than allowed for remote motor control. >....Of course the Acorn data recorder did have all connections on a >7 pin DIN socket (so you could use a straight-through cable to link >it to a BBC micro IIRC). But that was a rather specialised machine. Is that the same recorder which was designed to match the case shape of the "Electron" or another one? I got one of the "Electron" shaped ones with my "Interak", I've never tried using it. > There is mention of 'switching it to 'single'' if you only have >one recorder. Maybe that's the switch in question. It also mentions >that the remote control is handled by a separate jack plug. Yes, that's what my copy states too. It's got to be my memory, but I just don't remember that "remote" lead. > Ditto... No mention of how to add motor control either... Mine just says that you have to use an external relay....sigh.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Wed Mar 29 16:42:57 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Dayton Computerfest finds References: <200003141226.NAA07647@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <02df01bf99f6$67db67e0$a9e993c3@proteus> Hi, > Well, just take the NCK (Netwton Connection Kit).... >....Some of the stuff is available for download at Apples >ftp sites. Thanks, I'll go have another look....there wasn't too much there last time I looked (about 4 years ago). TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From marvin at rain.org Wed Mar 29 21:19:30 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: HP 98032A 16-bit Interface Manual References: <200003300144.UAA00333@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <38E2C7C2.804A6723@rain.org> I am starting to do serious damage to the piles of stuff around here and have already gotten rid of at least a couple of cubic inches of stuff. Adding to that pile is a copy of the HP 98032A 16-Bit Interface Installation and Service Manual that also includes the schematic. Anyone interested? I tend to use Priority Mail almost exclusively (they provide the box) so make it $4.00 first come, first serve. It will hit the recycle bin as soon as the urge becomes overcoming :). I should also say I do have the original manual so it is not quite as bad as it seems. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Mar 29 21:30:35 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Scanned Docs Update Message-ID: Hi, Just a quick note to let everyone know that I (somehow) managed to add a few more docs to my page at http://www.retrobytes.org. Since my last announcement, I've added an HP section (sparse yet), some more RT-11 docs, some MicroPDP docs, an SWP section, etc... Cheers, Aaron From PeksaDO at Cardiff.ac.uk Thu Mar 30 10:08:52 2000 From: PeksaDO at Cardiff.ac.uk (DOUG PEKSA - COMPG) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z Message-ID: > realise there was an analogue I/O card for the 380Z. I've got no > info on the winchester and network cards, but I guessed they must > have existed. IIRC at least one of the RML winchester systems was a > box about the size of a 380Z with a PSU, ST506-interfaced drive and > a SASI-ST506 interface card. I assume the 380Z interface was a SASI > host adapter or something. The 3rd. party winchester disk unit measures 16" x 16" x 4.5" and the cover (top and sides) is a beige type plastic with rounded corners (radius about 1") on the top of the sides; sitting on a metal base/ font/back. It has the wiring for two 5.25" FH disk drives but contains only one Rodime RO 100 (4 platters/8 heads/192 cylinders). The interface card in the disk unit is a 'Konan David Jr. II'. As I mentioned this has never worked. The instructions for running up the hard disk (given verbally to me) was to insert the floppy containing the executable x and to type x - Found the floppy, typed the command - nothing, although the disk does whirr quite happily, it doesn't seek. > I'd always assumed that the IEEE-488 card was a card that connected > to the bus cable. Are you saying that it's a daughterboard that > fits under the Z80 or something? The 3.5" square (exactly) daughter board plugs directly into and only into where the Z80 CPU normally resides. The board contains: Z80 CPU, AM25LS252IPC, 2 x SN74LS245N, SN74LS00N, 74F32PC chips with assorted resistors etc. There is a 26 way berg connector to take the cable to the IEEE-488 port. Also there is a 8-way link box with 5 unbroken links, 2 broken links and 1 remade link. > Do you happen to have schematics other than the ones that appear in > the normal Information File. Sorry, no schematics Doug. From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Thu Mar 30 06:30:09 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: PDP11/23 More dumb questions Message-ID: <002001bf9a43$b054d860$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> Thanks to all for the advice so far. I now have the terminal connection working again at least. > >Try connecting directly to the 10-pin connector on the left side of the >MXV11, start it up, and hit the HALT button. You should get an address and >an ODT prompt. You should get another prompt every time you press RUN, if >HALT is still pressed in. Assuming the panel is connected to the backplane >correctly. > I do this and get: 147470 @ Further iterations all result in: 173000 @ If I hit restart at any time after that there is a some disk activity and eventually and "&" prompt appears. The keyboard doesn't respond and nothing seems to happen in a reasonable time after that. I consulted the original owner who reports that it definitely went through a self test routine on the screen and did this before the linked PDP8 was started, so there's a hardware problem somewhere. Anyway I'm streets ahead with the info from Aaron Finneys scans which I will now study. I plan to reseat all the roms and cards and check all the jumper settings. Thanks all, Hans From broth at heathers.stdio.com Thu Mar 30 05:59:45 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: iOpener References: Message-ID: <38E341B1.8E5F2113@heathers.stdio.com> I stopped by again(I don't trust them) to see if they came in. I asked THREE people on the floor about it and none of them even knew what it was. They actually had to look it up in the computer to find it. I think the prerequisite to work there is to know absolutely nothing about technology. Amazing! allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Brian Roth wrote: > > > Its interesting to note that CC is backlogged with orders for so long when I > > have my order in Comp USA and so far as of today there is only two orders > > against their next shipment of 42 and one of those is mine. Regardless, I hate > > both of those outlets... I'm sure I'll never see it. > > My worry too. I still havent seen mine yet. > > Allison From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Mar 30 07:33:16 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: iOpener References: <38E341B1.8E5F2113@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: <002701bf9a4c$836b42e0$5181a7ca@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Roth" To: Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 9:29 PM Subject: Re: iOpener > I stopped by again(I don't trust them) to see if they came in. I asked THREE people > on the floor about it and none of them even knew what it was. They actually had to > look it up in the computer to find it. I think the prerequisite to work there is to > know absolutely nothing about technology. Amazing! Sounds like K-mart...... In 1989, before I knew any better, I looked at a Commodore Colt (truly AWFUL PC/XT semi-incompatible) with 2 x 5.25" DD drives and no hard disk in the local K-Mart. I asked the assistant what he could tell me about it. He opened a book, looked, and with a perfectly straight face told me the price. I waited.... He knew it was a computer and how much it was. That was it. I didn't buy it. (Fortunately). A friend enlightened me and I went and bought my first IBM compatible PC. (I'd had a TI/994a for some time - still have it somewhere) A Clone 286/12 with 1MB ram and a 40mb HDD and a 256k VGA card/Multisync monitor. Cost AU$4k cash. (Which was a good price for a VGA system in 89!) (The monitor was around $900 on it's own IIRC). Still have portions of it here and there in other machines. The Colt was still there a year and a half later. Some poor sucker bought it when it was reduced to clear for about a third of the original price (ie about twice what it was worth) some time after that. Poor bastard. They stopped selling computers completely not long after. Cheers Geoff Roberts From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Mar 30 08:18:55 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: RP04 geometry? Message-ID: <13535437512.18.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Since alt.sys.pdp10 is in a big flamewar right now, I guess I'll ask here. Does anyone know the correct geomerty of an RP04 pack in 18-bit mode? I have it as 19 heads, 411 cylinders, and 20 sectors a track, with 260 word sectors. (18 bit words, 256 data words and 4 header words.) I think that's wrong though. ------- From pat at transarc.ibm.com Thu Mar 30 09:35:09 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: RP04 geometry? In-Reply-To: <13535437512.18.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Since alt.sys.pdp10 is in a big flamewar right now, I guess I'll ask here. > Does anyone know the correct geomerty of an RP04 pack in 18-bit mode? > > I have it as 19 heads, 411 cylinders, and 20 sectors a track, with 260 > word sectors. (18 bit words, 256 data words and 4 header words.) > I think that's wrong though. >From the TOPS-10 7.03 monitor source (file RPXKON.MAC), I see BLKPRU (blocks per unit) set to 154280 with the comment "406 CYLINDERS", BLKPUM (blocks per unit including maint cylinders) is 156180 with the comment "411 CYLINDERS", and BLKPUC (blocks per unit in 10/11 compatibility mode - what is this? Does it mean 16-bit mode?) as 171798, with the comment "22*19*411". If you do the math, 411*19*20 does equal 156180, so it would appear that the geometry you have is correct. I don't remember offhand about the number of words per sector - I was thinking that there were 5 header words (2 cylinder address, two "keywords", and one CRC or something?). But I'm likely to be wrong there, and my peripherals handbook is at home and I'm at work right now. --Pat. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Mar 30 11:42:27 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: RP04 geometry? In-Reply-To: <13535437512.18.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>; from DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com on Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 06:18:55AM -0800 References: <13535437512.18.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <20000330124227.A14385@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 06:18:55AM -0800, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Since alt.sys.pdp10 is in a big flamewar right now, I guess I'll ask here. > Does anyone know the correct geomerty of an RP04 pack in 18-bit mode? > > I have it as 19 heads, 411 cylinders, and 20 sectors a track, with 260 > word sectors. (18 bit words, 256 data words and 4 header words.) > I think that's wrong though. Why? It's the exact same drive and media as used on a PDP-11, just formatted to 20 sec/track instead of 22. So the cyls and tracks ought to be the same, just fewer sectors since they're 11% longer. I certainly don't *know* that it's the same (although I'll bet looking at the source to the ITS "MARK" routine would be enlightening), but why wouldn't it be? And of course the headers should be invisible unless you use opcodes 53/63/73. John Wilson D Bit From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 29 17:27:47 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: PDP11/23 More dumb questions In-Reply-To: <38E28A62.BB9F4E8F@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Mar 29, 0 05:57:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1951 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000330/95d9470e/attachment.ksh From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Mar 30 12:25:37 2000 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Tephelones (fairly off topic) Message-ID: <802568B2.006519E5.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> This is only on topic at all because I shall be using a classic computer for it... I understand that some mobile telephones nowadays can download tunes to play when they ring. Can anybody point me to (a) the download protocol(s) that the phones use and (b) the file format(s) for these tunes? Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Mar 30 13:07:07 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: "New" prompt on Sun box In-Reply-To: "New" prompt on Sun box (Technoid@cheta.net) References: <10003282346.ZM18818@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200003300144.UAA00333@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <14563.42459.214649.18203@phaduka.neurotica.com> On March 29, Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > I have tried the 'n' command and it says it is not a command. If I enter > "new" it responds "cpu cache enabled" which is not what I wanted at all. > Is it possible this Sparcstation 330 (sparc 4/300) does not have the 'new' > prompt at all? -- Nope...of all the models in the sun4/xxx family, only the 4/6xx has OpenFirmware. The 4/1xx, 4/2xx, 4/3xx, and 4/4xx have sun3-style "old mode" only. -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 30 12:03:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <02e001bf99f6$689282e0$a9e993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Mar 30, 0 00:07:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3340 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000330/633ec514/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 30 12:10:57 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: from "DOUG PEKSA - COMPG" at Mar 30, 0 10:08:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2256 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000330/34d1ff7b/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 30 16:03:15 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Odd Magnetic Media question Message-ID: OK, I've got a wierd question now. What is the lifespan of Magnetic Media? In this case, I'm concerned about 4mm DAT, but since I'm more familiar with 8mm it as an example. Let's say I've got a stack of 8mm tapes with data on them. They're supposed to be good for archival purposes, when stored in the proper conditions for 2 years. Now let's say I've got a brand new box of 8mm tapes that have been sitting around still sealed for 8 years. Again, they've been stored in the proper conditions more or less. So are they still good? Is the 2 year number for their ability to hold data, or the actual physical lifespan. Anyone have any ideas? The real reason for the question is finding some 4mm tapes that are still sealed, and I'd estimate about 8 years old. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From elvey at hal.com Thu Mar 30 16:26:58 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Odd Magnetic Media question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200003302226.OAA07025@civic.hal.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > Now let's say I've got a brand new box of 8mm tapes that have been sitting > around still sealed for 8 years. Again, they've been stored in the proper > conditions more or less. So are they still good? Is the 2 year number for > their ability to hold data, or the actual physical lifespan. Anyone have > any ideas? Hi I think the 2 year is for reasonable useage. New tapes should last for 30 to 40 years at least with good storage. Tapes with data may not fare as well. One of the biggest problem with old tapes is print through. This is particularly true of the thinner tapes. This is where some of the signal form one layer in the spool shows up on another layer. I've seen this on old audio tapes. I've seen troubles with old floppies lately also. What is the problem is the glue they use to hold the inner surface pads onto the disk folder. It bleeds through to the floppies over time and gets on the disk. It then gets onto the heads as well ( sticky stuff ). I resently recovered some data from some disk that suffered from this and I had to clean the heads between each disk. You could see that it did some damage to the disk as well but I was able to get data off with multiple tries. Use short length tapes for long term storage and you should get more years than you'll live. Always make backups of backups and store in a different location. Dwight From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Mar 30 17:02:51 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Odd Magnetic Media question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.20000330145617.00c7d990@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 02:03 PM 3/30/00 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is the 2 year number for >their ability to hold data, or the actual physical lifespan. Anyone have >any ideas? Tapes seem to fail in a variety of ways. I'm not an expert but these are my personal experiences and my working theorys, buyer beware! 1) They fail to stay magnetized. I'm guessing due to heat changing the magnetic properties of the tape. 2) The oxide flakes off. It seems the adhesive between the mylar and the oxide "dries out" or some such and it just peels off. Usually leaves behind a clear spot. 3) They stretch. Mostly this seemed to be a problem in an old Kennedy drive I used that really sucked (vacuum that is!) and I don't think it did as good a job as it could with the tape tension control. 4) They evaporate. Now I've never ever seen a partially evaporated tape, however I have on more than one occasion been absolutely positive I put some tapes in a box in the closet, only to come back some time later and to have them completely gone. Then again it could just be a "senior moment" :-) --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 30 17:25:23 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Odd Magnetic Media question In-Reply-To: <200003302226.OAA07025@civic.hal.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Mar 30, 2000 02:26:58 PM Message-ID: <200003302325.PAA02184@shell1.aracnet.com> > I think the 2 year is for reasonable useage. Actually the 2 year number is from a government study that I don't believe is still online :^( It was refering to writing the data to tape and then sticking the tape in a vault. In other words an archive tape. They found 8mm was good for 2 years, while DLT and 9-Track tapes were good for 10 years. > New tapes should last for 30 to 40 years at least > with good storage. Tapes with data may not fare as well. Hmmm, somehow I've got my doubts on them being good for that long, though I've seen downright ancient 9-Track tapes used when I was working at a Mainframe site. My general suspicion is that they're good, and that the 2 year figure is for the data on the tape, and that if one was to write over the tape again, that it would probably be good for another two years. > Use short length tapes for long term storage and > you should get more years than you'll live. > Always make backups of backups and store in a > different location. > Dwight > Actually I've used CD-R for archives for the last 2-3 years. Though even they should be refreshed probably every 5-10 years. I'm just looking at finally getting my act together and setting up automated backups on my Home OpenVMS cluster, and am looking to cut corners and save some money by using this stash of tapes I just uncovered. Should be enough tapes there to set up a small pool. Besides once I've got a good copy of the data I'm going to shadow the drives :^) That's the other thing I should have had going, but haven't gotten around to. You can never have your data *to* safe :^) Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 30 17:49:20 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Odd Magnetic Media question In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000330145617.00c7d990@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Mar 30, 2000 03:02:51 PM Message-ID: <200003302349.PAA05414@shell1.aracnet.com> > Tapes seem to fail in a variety of ways. I'm not an expert but these are my > personal experiences and my working theorys, buyer beware! > > 1) They fail to stay magnetized. > > I'm guessing due to heat changing the magnetic properties of the tape. Now are you talking the physical properties of the tape, or the 'bits' of data on the tape? > 2) The oxide flakes off. > > It seems the adhesive between the mylar and the oxide "dries out" or some > such and it just peels off. Usually leaves behind a clear spot. This was one of my chief concerns. Any idea how long a 4mm takes? > 4) They evaporate. > > Now I've never ever seen a partially evaporated tape, however I have on > more than one occasion been absolutely positive I put some tapes in a box > in the closet, only to come back some time later and to have them > completely gone. Then again it could just be a "senior moment" :-) I've seen this problem. What's worse is when it's a locked safe they disappear from! Zane From elvey at hal.com Thu Mar 30 18:11:18 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Odd Magnetic Media question In-Reply-To: <200003302325.PAA02184@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <200003310011.QAA08365@civic.hal.com> healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > Actually I've used CD-R for archives for the last 2-3 years. Though even > they should be refreshed probably every 5-10 years. Hi It sounds like it might be a good idea to backup on both medias. I don't know if there is enough information of the kinds of problems CD-R's might have to really say how safe they are. Some of the darnest things can come back and bite you, like the bottle of cleaning solution that the janitor uses. Take Care Dwight From marvin at rain.org Thu Mar 30 19:46:58 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Messages Per Month References: <000326115032.224003d3@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <38E40392.12B757D2@rain.org> I was just checking the number of messages that have come through this year and it is pretty close to 3900 so far! Let's see. At 90 days into the year, it averages out to about 63 per day. No wonder things get lost in my inbox :)! From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 30 20:34:13 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Messages Per Month In-Reply-To: <38E40392.12B757D2@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Mar 30, 2000 05:46:58 PM Message-ID: <200003310234.SAA24731@shell1.aracnet.com> > I was just checking the number of messages that have come through this year > and it is pretty close to 3900 so far! Let's see. At 90 days into the year, > it averages out to about 63 per day. No wonder things get lost in my inbox > :)! Shoot, that's what they make eMail filters for. Besides if that's all you get a day you're lucky. I'm on a couple other lists that are pretty heavy, so I get 3-500 messages a day. Zane From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Thu Mar 30 17:28:42 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Odd Magnetic Media question References: Message-ID: <03e101bf9ab9$9e911a00$f59793c3@proteus> Hi, > Let's say I've got a stack of 8mm tapes with data on them. >They're supposed to be good for archival purposes, when >stored in the proper conditions for 2 years. Are you sure about that? Two years sounds a bit short. > The real reason for the question is finding some 4mm tapes >that are still sealed, and I'd estimate about 8 years old. If it helps, I've been using DAT for music since 1993. I've got tapes I recorded then which are fine now, the only problems I've ever encountered are the occasional dropouts due to tape ware. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Thu Mar 30 20:05:11 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: Message-ID: <03e301bf9ab9$a023ef00$f59793c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > The 'Local Viewdata System' seems to be a program (which I >don't have AFAIK) that turns a networked 380Z into a viewdata >server.... Interesting, does this then imply that there was a Teletext/Viewdata compatible graphics adapter available for the 380Z? Or did it simulate a Viewdata display using the hi-res graphics option? >....Other machines (380Z and 480Z) on the network can call up >'pages' from that server.... Wasn't there a similar package available for the BBC micro? > The user port (and user ports in general) was a nice idea. >It's a pity you don't see them on modern micros... Yes, the science dept at school did a fair bit of stuff with the user port on one of the 380Zs. They also used one of the science teachers' PET in several demonstrations, couldn't have done that without the user port. > That's it -- sort-of. A white case (with a black underside IIRC) >that looks a little like an Electron). I've dug mine out, it appears to be specifically intended for the Electron - even the label above the cassette flap is printed in the same style as that of the Electron. I think I've seen the version you mention though - black bottom, top part same cream/beige colour as BBC micro and black buttons? > You have an Interak? NICE! Yes, I swapped it for a BBC B (with Torch disc pack and CP/N co-processor) back in '89/'90. It's a nice system, not a PAL or an ASIC in sight. I even have the floppy controller board for it, but have never set that up since I don't have the CP/M disc(s). It's a pity Greenbank Electronics no longer exist, I could do with a few prototyping cards for it. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Thu Mar 30 17:45:05 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z References: Message-ID: <03e201bf9ab9$9f63ac40$f59793c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > There's a 26 pin header plug on the hi-res card.... >....colour output option consists of 3 resistor networks and >transistor buffers.... Sort of like D/A converters made from an R/2R resistor ladder and a buffer stage? > Physically, this option is a little PCB on a bracket which carries >the 4 BNC sockets.... >....BNCs going through one of the large cutouts in that panel.... Ah, so that's what the cutout was for. > I'd miss it too if I ever bought any new equipment.... Yes, even Tandy used to supply schematics with all of their equipment in those days. I still have my first cassette recorder (a CTR-40) and my "air band" radio, both of which came from Tandy and both of which came with schematics - as did both the multimeters I bought from them for that matter. I don't know if it's cost cutting or a philosophy of "it's cheaper to replace it than fix it", but it's annoying the lengths you have to go to nowadays to get schematics and/or service manuals. :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Thu Mar 30 20:07:48 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Prime 2455 References: Message-ID: <03e401bf9ab9$a2125180$f59793c3@proteus> Hi John, > I used a Prime P750 way back at Westfield College.... >....If you need any help with using PRIMOS, let me know.... Thanks, but I need to locate a copy of it first.... :-) One of my friends used to use a Prime at Polytechnic, but he threw all his notes away years ago.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From Technoid at cheta.net Thu Mar 30 20:50:42 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: "New" prompt on Sun box In-Reply-To: <14563.42459.214649.18203@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200003310254.VAA19274@lexington.ioa.net> I have succeeded in replacing the batt on the nvram/rtc. It now self-tests without any problem but won't boot. I have autoboot configured the way I thought was right:b sd(0,18,0) but the machine will no longer boot from the hard disk. It would before but I had to toggle the power switch rapidly to make that happen. I erased the eeprom somehow and the faq is not getting it done. Remember my Sparcstation 330 has something like a late 3/ series monitor and so does not have the OK monitor which came with the 3/6x machineas and later. I have reprogrammed the nvram via the "q" command and it tries but something is wrong. I must be missing something like telling the machine what buss to initialize a boot from or something. I thought I had what I needed to replace the eeprom and restore the settings.... sigh... please oh sunworshipers help me -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 30 21:39:15 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Odd Magnetic Media question In-Reply-To: <03e101bf9ab9$9e911a00$f59793c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Mar 31, 2000 12:28:42 AM Message-ID: <200003310339.TAA29531@shell1.aracnet.com> > > Let's say I've got a stack of 8mm tapes with data on them. > >They're supposed to be good for archival purposes, when > >stored in the proper conditions for 2 years. > > Are you sure about that? Two years sounds a bit short. Well, I can't find the report anymore online, but I got that from a report on media lifespans for archival purposes. My guess is that after two years a certain percentage of tapes start to show problems. This same report listed 9-Tracks at 10 years, and I've personally gotten data off of 20 or 30 year old tapes. The one thing about the report that has always bothered me is they listed just about every type tape, except 4mm. > If it helps, I've been using DAT for music since 1993. I've got tapes I > recorded then which are fine now, the only problems I've ever encountered > are the occasional dropouts due to tape ware. Actually this does help, since my main concerns were physical deteriation since, while these tapes are from about '92, they've never been used. Zane From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Mar 30 22:45:37 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <38E341B1.8E5F2113@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: <200003310445.WAA13130@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 06:59:45 -0500 From: Brian Roth To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org I just stopped at my local (NW Indiana) CC tonight to browse some 900MHz phones and they had a demo unit on display, running a demo program. Very weird little device, but kinda cool. Didn't think to ask if they actually had any..... Did see the 46" Phillips HDTV, though, and I'm wondering which body parts I need to sell to get one.....of course, I'll still need ears and eyes to appreciate it once I get it, so they're out of the question. Subject: Re: iOpener Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > I stopped by again(I don't trust them) to see if they came in. I asked > THREE people on the floor about it and none of them even knew what it was. > They actually had to look it up in the computer to find it. I think the > prerequisite to work there is to know absolutely nothing about technology. > Amazing! > Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 30 13:49:30 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Tephelones (fairly off topic) In-Reply-To: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk "Tephelones (fairly off topic)" (Mar 30, 19:25) References: <802568B2.006519E5.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <10003302049.ZM20362@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 30, 19:25, Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > This is only on topic at all because I shall be using a classic computer for > it... > > I understand that some mobile telephones nowadays can download tunes to play > when they ring. Can anybody point me to (a) the download protocol(s) that the > phones use and (b) the file format(s) for these tunes? Yes, several Nokia, Ericsson, and Siemens models can download tunes, and a few can be programmed in other ways with a data cable. One place to start might be http://www.cellulartips.com/index.html but there are lots of other sites around. You'll find a lot of information by using AltaVista, or DejaNews to search the uk.telecom newgroups as well (look for "nokia" and "data"), eg http://www.gadgets.demon.co.uk/nokia61xx/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Mar 30 13:53:20 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: PDP11/23 More dumb questions In-Reply-To: "Olminkhof" "Re: PDP11/23 More dumb questions" (Mar 30, 22:30) References: <002001bf9a43$b054d860$dadf8490@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <10003302053.ZM20366@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 30, 22:30, Olminkhof wrote: > I do this and get: > > 147470 > @ > > Further iterations all result in: > > 173000 > @ > > If I hit restart at any time after that there is a some disk activity and > eventually and "&" prompt appears. The first address is in RAM, which is interesting. It suggests the processor is executing some bootstrap that gets copied into memory. 173000 is the standard bootstrap address; every time you restart the CPU, it sets the program counter to that address. The "&" is not any normal PDP-11 prompt, so that must have come from the disk or custom boot roms. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Mar 31 01:40:21 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Odd Magnetic Media question In-Reply-To: healyzh@aracnet.com "Re: Odd Magnetic Media question" (Mar 30, 15:25) References: <200003302325.PAA02184@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <10003310840.ZM21103@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 30, 15:25, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > I think the 2 year is for reasonable useage. > > Actually the 2 year number is from a government study that I don't believe > is still online :^( It was refering to writing the data to tape and then > sticking the tape in a vault. In other words an archive tape. They found > 8mm was good for 2 years, while DLT and 9-Track tapes were good for 10 > years. > > > New tapes should last for 30 to 40 years at least > > with good storage. Tapes with data may not fare as well. That seems logical to me. I wonder how much of the apparent data loss is due to print-through? I was told that tapes ought to be rewound every year or two to minimise the print-through effect. The idea is that by doing so, you change the overlap between layers on the spool, and the effects cancel out to some extent. Having said that, I've just been reading some old cassette tapes on my Exidy Sorcerer. I sold my original Sorcerer (and associated tapes) 20 years ago, but got a replacement (with no tapes at all) for my collection recently. Last weekend, a friend brought me some tapes he'd found from his, unused since 1980. I've managed to read every program I've tried so far -- about a dozen -- on the four tapes I've tried. In a couple of cases, I got errors on the first read, but no problem on the second. I think that's probably due to the tape being more evenly wound/tensioned after playing through and rewinding once, a common effect in compact cassettes as I recall. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Mar 31 01:15:43 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: 8" floppy holder In-Reply-To: References: <02e001bf99f6$689282e0$a9e993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Mar 30, 0 00:07:04 am Message-ID: Snoopin at the salvage yard I noticed a "fellows" 8 inch floppy holder. Typical desk top plastic thing with the smoked lid, 4 partitions, holds maybe 40 or so floppies. If somebody on the list wants it, email me, most likely $5 and postage. From PeksaDO at Cardiff.ac.uk Fri Mar 31 09:26:19 2000 From: PeksaDO at Cardiff.ac.uk (DOUG PEKSA - COMPG) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z (380Z ^IEEE) Message-ID: >> The 3.5" square (exactly) daughter board plugs directly into and >> only into where the Z80 CPU normally resides. The board contains: >> Z80 CPU, AM25LS252IPC, 2 x SN74LS245N, SN74LS00N, 74F32PC chips >> with assorted resistors etc. There is a 26 way berg connector to >> take the cable to the IEEE-488 port. Also there is a 8-way link >> box with 5 unbroken links, 2 broken links and 1 remade link. > I don't like to say things like this, but I think I am justified... >'Impossible!' > You've got an address decoder (AM25LS2521 == 74LS688 IIRC), a > couple of bidirectional bus buffers ('245s), and a few gates ('00 > NANDs and '32 ORs). What you don't have is any form of latch, which > is what you'd need for an output port. Since the IEEE-488 bus can > run a lot more slowly than the Z80 bus, it's going to need such > latches, at least for output. There are several possibilites. > Either you've missed out some chips (like '374s, or even a true > IEEE-488 chip like the 9914 or 7210). Or this is _not_ the IEEE-488 > option. I suspect the latter, actually. I would be very suprised if > the RML IEE-488 option was a daughtercard that fitted under the > CPU. Everything I can find out about it suggests it's a normal Z50 > bus card. This sounds like some kind of bus buffering/extension > card, sort of like the IDE interface (although obviously > incompatable with the PC type of IDE). Are you sure this is not > some kind of strange winchester interface. It could well be the > host adapter for (say) a WD1001 card or something like that. Please feel free to say 'impossible' - my knowledge of electronics at this level is minimal. I will now write out 100 times 'Failure to pay due regard to warnings repeatedly given, brings in its train dire consequences which might easily been avoided by the use of a little self restraint' (school line). As you have pointed out whatever this is, the person who installed it just made use of the convenient sized hole marked IEEE port. Nothing which came with the equipment (originally from Oxford University, then from Biomechanical Engineering at UWCM (University of Wales, College of Medicine), used that port. Doug. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Mar 31 03:02:53 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: iOpener In-Reply-To: <200003310445.WAA13130@garcon.laidbak.com> References: <38E341B1.8E5F2113@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: >Did see the 46" Phillips HDTV, though, and I'm wondering which >body parts I need to sell to get one.....of course, I'll still need ears Couple years ago at WCES I saw a demo of a Texas Instruments micro mirror HDTV projector with about a 22 ft screen, it was NICE. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Mar 31 01:56:35 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: Odd Magnetic Media question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >OK, I've got a wierd question now. What is the lifespan of Magnetic Media? >In this case, I'm concerned about 4mm DAT, but since I'm more familiar with >8mm it as an example. >The real reason for the question is finding some 4mm tapes that are still >sealed, and I'd estimate about 8 years old. Archival life is one of those statistical things. It has to take into account sun spots, Roger rat taking a nibble, and the general river rising sort of problems. My point being, a significant amount of failure will be due to some sort of 'accident'. The only audio cassettes I have ever lost were eaten by mean tape drives, and I have a number of 25 year old cassettes I listen to still. OTOH I was mortified to hear that perhaps some of my recordings on reel to reel Ampex 456 tape that I spent a fortune on may now be starting to fail after the same time period. Prudence suggests important data needs to be stored on several different media types and in several different locations. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Mar 31 03:13:52 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:28 2005 Subject: DecConnect office cable Aaack In-Reply-To: <200003310445.WAA13130@garcon.laidbak.com> References: <38E341B1.8E5F2113@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: One of the things my greedy little hands grab up whenever the price allows it, are the neat little CoStar label printers. As is typical these low priced found in a box of stuff units are missing power supply (not hard to replace) and data cable (all apparently vanished into limbo along with all known pinouts). The nasty little missing cable is a PC serial Din on the end of a RJ11 phone cable. Oh happy day said I spying a number of cables that seem to be exactly this, but my hopes dashed like so much salt over a pagans shoulder, I note these cables have printed on them DecConnect Office Cable. Woe, oh woe, oh no, are these some nasty DEC things and not my highly desired CoStar serial cables? Glimmer of hope, the nasty din8 on the nasty DEC cable isn't molded on, and appears to perhaps "open", if so looks like a job I am short one tiny screw driver to attempt for now (one on each side). From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Mar 31 04:07:26 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Messages Per Month Message-ID: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D63AAC2E@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: healyzh@aracnet.com [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 9:34 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Messages Per Month > > > > I was just checking the number of messages that have come > through this year > > and it is pretty close to 3900 so far! Let's see. At 90 > days into the year, > > it averages out to about 63 per day. No wonder things get > lost in my inbox > > :)! Wonder how many it would be if Tony were still posting :-) Anyone know what happened to him? Steve Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000331/8c870711/attachment.html From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Mar 31 09:43:15 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Possible treasure haul...help? In-Reply-To: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D63AAC2E@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Message-ID: For anyone in Southern California (specifically Ventura area): I made a contact with an eBay-only reseller (mostly test equipment) who occasionally picks up old computer junk. Up until now, he usually scraps it for gold value, but would rather someone preserve them then have them melted down. Because of financial circumstances, however, I think the few dollars per item scrap value would make a big difference to him. He's in the process of relocating, and has a 16' x 16' x 5' high (seriously, almost square) pile of junk that hasn't been sorted through. I've been thinking of offering a couple of weekends of work helping sort/move stuff in exchange for any old computer stuff I could glean...anyone in the area (or any area, for that matter) interested in helping out? Just from cursory examination, I saw a *large* Pertec 9track drive, a bunch of 8" drives, and lots of proprietary stuff that looks like it's from government/military installations. He knows that there are some HP terminals, more 9track drives, etc. buried in there somewhere. I haven't pitched the idea to him yet, and wanted to know if anyone was up for it first. I don't relish the idea of sorting/lifting thousands of pounds of gear alone, but we do what we must. It could work out well; he was complaining about his shortage of time/labor, and at the same time basically saying that all of the computer stuff he has is worth almost nothing to him... Cheers, Aaron From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Mar 31 10:35:24 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Old Magnetic Media Questions Message-ID: I have somewhere a GAO report that lists the problems, lifetimes, and quantities of data that the US government has on different magnetic media. IIRC the big problem with magentic media is that it is never stored in the correct environmental conditions that provide optimum lifetimes. They included pictures of piles of 9-track tapes of LANDSAT data, some of the stacks were used to block open the door to the tape library. Humidity and heat are big problems for tape. Here are several references about data storage and media Preserving Digital Objects: Recurrent Needs and Challenges. Michael Lesk. Bellcore. Abstract. We do not know today what Mozart sounded like on the... URL: www.lesk.com/mlesk/auspres/aus.html . Effects of Humidity on Life Expectancy of Media. Long-Term Preservation of Dig Long-Term Preservation of Digital Materials. Dr. John W.C. Van Bogart National Media Laboratory. Presented at the National Preservation Office (NPO)... URL: www.safesupplies.com/article1.html http://www.cclabs.missouri.edu/~ccgreg/tapes.html Magnetic Tape and Digital Media Life Expectancies Preservation of New Technology ...as digital media, DAT cartridges, 9-track tape in... ...example, half-inch 9-track magnetic tape densities have... palimpsest.stanford.edu/byauth/lesk/lesk2.html - Cached - 58k - GoogleScout I think that the September 1995 issue of Scientific American had an article about preserving digital data. Mike From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Mar 30 09:53:09 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (john b) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software Message-ID: <002501bf9a60$0bb962e0$533ffea9@johnb> My entire collection was purchased by a *very* large corporation. Details will probably be PR'd later this month. I have a lot of source code and PDP-1 software that does not exist anywhere. I would like to back up this material in case of damage in shipping, and it should be made available to all. I am spending all my time right now packing and rackmounting - I have no time to write anything. I will have some people come over and feed in the paper tape this weekend. While I won't be able to archive most of it, I do hope to at least read in most of the source code on paper tape. (I have over 310 PDP-1 paper tapes alone). This program needs to be *very* easy to use and hopefully supports X/Y-MODEM. I will set up a terminal program at this end that supports 32 character file names (windows 98). This program would have to run under RT11-V3B, or RT11V4 BL. Hopefully it would send the code down a serial line separate serial port. I will only have this software here until Wednesday April 5,2000 (5 days). It would be really nice if this software just asked the end user to load a paper tape, then huit return, and it sends the data read out a separate serial port, then prompts to load the next one. Please e-mail me at: dylanb@sympatico.ca . P.S. Most wishlist items were set aside before this offer to purchase so I will be able to ship them soon. P.P.S I bought a DSI to do this but it got seriously damaged in shipping - I have no time to fix it. john From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Mar 31 11:40:11 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software Message-ID: <000331124011.22400ac6@trailing-edge.com> >I am spending all my time right now packing and rackmounting - I have no >time to write anything. I will have some people come over and feed in the >paper tape this weekend. While I won't be able to archive most of it, I do >hope to at least read in most of the source code on paper tape. (I have over >310 PDP-1 paper tapes alone). > >This program needs to be *very* easy to use and hopefully supports >X/Y-MODEM. I will set up a terminal program at this end that supports 32 >character file names (windows 98). This program would have to run under >RT11-V3B, or RT11V4 BL. Hopefully it would send the code down a serial line >separate serial port. Umm, what's wrong with Kermit? The latest Kermit for RT does just fine under RT-11 V4, and Kermit is available for just about every other piece of hardware ever created. See ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/ >It would be really nice if this software just asked the end user to load a >paper tape, then huit return, and it sends the data read out a separate >serial port, then prompts to load the next one. What sort of paper tape reader are you using? If it's a serial reader, you can hook it straight up to a PC-clone running MS-DOS and MS-Kermit (or Linux and C-Kermit) and archive the tapes that way. Both MS-Kermit and C-Kermit include powerful scripting languages. Remember, you *don't* have to start from scratch, others of us have been archiving this sort of stuff for many years. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 31 11:39:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <03e201bf9ab9$9f63ac40$f59793c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Mar 31, 0 00:45:05 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2620 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000331/7eae14fb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 31 11:44:09 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z In-Reply-To: <03e301bf9ab9$a023ef00$f59793c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Mar 31, 0 03:05:11 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1836 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000331/95e19525/attachment.ksh From g at kurico.com Fri Mar 31 11:47:09 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Another Sparc question (SparcClassic) In-Reply-To: <38E18080.72AF1A11@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <38E4903D.15930.7E12A37E@localhost> I have a Sparc Classic (sorta) that I'm trying to get up and going. When it boots it displays the following: Can?t read disk label Can?t open sun disk label package It then proceeds to boot into single user mode, but with everything mounted read only. The drive itself looks ok and the fs can't be too messed up since it still boots and I can still see and do stuff (as long as it doesn't write to the disk). If I try to fsck it, it comes back and says: can't stat /dev/rdsk/c0t3d0s0 How do I put a disk label back on the drive. Preferably a method that doesn't require a cd/tape to boot from (only have a floppy drive). Thanks George From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 31 11:51:26 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Research Machines Link 480Z (380Z ^IEEE) In-Reply-To: from "DOUG PEKSA - COMPG" at Mar 31, 0 09:26:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2067 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000331/3bf3753b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 31 11:52:55 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Messages Per Month In-Reply-To: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D63AAC2E@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> from "Steve Robertson" at Mar 31, 0 05:07:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 224 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000331/ca7c010f/attachment.ksh From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Mar 30 11:00:20 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (john b) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software Message-ID: <001001bf9a69$6e9ba180$533ffea9@johnb> -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, March 31, 2000 12:42 PM Subject: RE: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software >>I am spending all my time right now packing and rackmounting - I have no >>time to write anything. I will have some people come over and feed in the >>paper tape this weekend. While I won't be able to archive most of it, I do >>hope to at least read in most of the source code on paper tape. (I have over >>310 PDP-1 paper tapes alone). >> >>This program needs to be *very* easy to use and hopefully supports >>X/Y-MODEM. I will set up a terminal program at this end that supports 32 >>character file names (windows 98). This program would have to run under >>RT11-V3B, or RT11V4 BL. Hopefully it would send the code down a serial line >>separate serial port. > >Umm, what's wrong with Kermit? The latest Kermit for RT does just fine under >RT-11 V4, and Kermit is available for just about every other piece >of hardware ever created. See ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/ > >>It would be really nice if this software just asked the end user to load a >>paper tape, then huit return, and it sends the data read out a separate >>serial port, then prompts to load the next one. > >What sort of paper tape reader are you using? If it's a serial reader, >you can hook it straight up to a PC-clone running MS-DOS and MS-Kermit >(or Linux and C-Kermit) and archive the tapes that way. Both MS-Kermit >and C-Kermit include powerful scripting languages. PC05 with a PC11 controller. > >Remember, you *don't* have to start from scratch, others of us have >been archiving this sort of stuff for many years. > I appreciate that. Do you have this archived: PDP-1 source code. PDP-11 source code - Dos/Batch-11 , RT11. I also have source code to most of the packages they released. If you have this stuff then I won't bother archiving all the source code I have and pass it on. I did get almost all the source from the original minicomputers dec knocked out.. alot of it was internal. john >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 31 12:34:34 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Old Magnetic Media Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >correct environmental conditions that provide optimum lifetimes. They >included pictures of piles of 9-track tapes of LANDSAT data, some of the >stacks were used to block open the door to the tape library. Humidity and >heat are big problems for tape. I don't know if they still do, but back in '93 there was a building on the WNY in DC that had a simular problem. BUT the problem was punch cards. Do you have any idea how *bad* punch cards can smell if they draw moisoture and start havning a mildew problem? >. Effects of Humidity on Life Expectancy of Media. Long-Term Preservation of >Dig > Long-Term Preservation of Digital Materials. Dr. John W.C. Van >Bogart National Media Laboratory. Presented at the National Preservation >Office (NPO)... BINGO!!! This isn't the article I'd read before, but the one I'd read was on the NML web site (which appears to no longer exist sadly). However, this one contains a lot of info the other didn't. Thank You! Of course, now that I remember that it's the NML.... Here is another link to add to you're list (you can order it or read it online) http://www.clir.org/pubs/abstract/pub54.html Actually thier whole pub list looks rather interesting. http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/reports.html Ah, they're the Council on Library and Information Resources. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Mar 31 12:51:09 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Another Sparc question (SparcClassic) In-Reply-To: <38E4903D.15930.7E12A37E@localhost> from George Currie at "Mar 31, 2000 11:47:09 am" Message-ID: <200003311851.NAA08611@bg-tc-ppp85.monmouth.com> > I have a Sparc Classic (sorta) that I'm trying to get up and going. > When it boots it displays the following: > > Can't read disk label > Can't open sun disk label package > > It then proceeds to boot into single user mode, but with everything > mounted read only. The drive itself looks ok and the fs can't be too > messed up since it still boots and I can still see and do stuff (as > long as it doesn't write to the disk). > > If I try to fsck it, it comes back and says: > > can't stat /dev/rdsk/c0t3d0s0 > > How do I put a disk label back on the drive. Preferably a method > that doesn't require a cd/tape to boot from (only have a floppy drive). > > Thanks > George > > > Sounds like the disk label may have gotten hit. Try uname -a and see what Solaris version it is. I'd try fsck -n and see what partitions it knows about and can see (bet it's just root). It may be possible to run the format program and label it... If you need it I've got some Sun compatible CDROMS (single speed external slow) available that'll do the 512 byte sectors. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Mar 31 13:29:40 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software References: <001001bf9a69$6e9ba180$533ffea9@johnb> Message-ID: <38E4FCA4.3E53FC36@idirect.com> >John B. wrote: > PDP-1 source code. > PDP-11 source code - Dos/Batch-11 , RT11. I also have source code to most of > the packages they released. > > If you have this stuff then I won't bother archiving all the source code I > have and pass it on. I did get almost all the source from the original > minicomputers dec knocked out.. alot of it was internal. Jerome Fine replies: I just saw all your messages. I wonder why they were delayed for so long. In any case, I would like to help at least with the RX01/RX02 floppy diskettes. I have one working RX02 drive and a spare ESDI drive of 600 MBytes that I can use to hold more than 1000 floppy images. If that would at least help to hold all the 8" floppy data, I could pick them up ASAP and return them by April 4th, 2000. I will try and phone you again later today. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Mar 31 13:43:26 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software Message-ID: <000331144326.22400ae0@trailing-edge.com> >>>It would be really nice if this software just asked the end user to load a >>>paper tape, then huit return, and it sends the data read out a separate >>>serial port, then prompts to load the next one. > >>What sort of paper tape reader are you using? If it's a serial reader, >>you can hook it straight up to a PC-clone running MS-DOS and MS-Kermit >>(or Linux and C-Kermit) and archive the tapes that way. Both MS-Kermit >>and C-Kermit include powerful scripting languages. >PC05 with a PC11 controller. OK, you can hook the PC05 up to a PC, but you'd have to do some re-wiring and write the simple code to read it. If you've already got a running RT-11 system with the PC11 in it up and running, it's probably easier if you use Kermit on the RT end and a Kermit script on the PC-clone to do the automation and user prompting. OTOH I could run all the tapes through the machinery here in a few days, as well. It's too bad that you have to do it all in just a few days before they're gone, setting up the automation on your end with your equipment sounds like it might end up taking most of your allotted time, when such archiving (ideally) shouldn't be done in such a rush. How many feet total are we talking about, 10 thousand feet, 30 thousand feet, 100 thousand feet? Remember than 10 thousand feet is (approximately) 1.2 megabytes, and takes a bit more than an hour if you can run it continuously through a PC05's 300 char/sec reader. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mrdos at swbell.net Fri Mar 31 13:55:50 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Looking for Honeywell TACPAC Message-ID: <002f01bf9b4b$1e780da0$86713ed8@compaq> Has anyone heard of TACPAC for old Honeywell computers? I have a Honeywell Level 6, and according to the manual, I need TACPAC to boot the machine. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000331/800ed6ad/attachment.html From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Fri Mar 31 13:57:07 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software In-Reply-To: <001001bf9a69$6e9ba180$533ffea9@johnb> Message-ID: <001801bf9b4b$4c12dba0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> >>This program needs to be *very* easy to use and hopefully supports >>X/Y-MODEM. I will set up a terminal program at this end that supports 32 >Umm, what's wrong with Kermit? The latest Kermit for RT does just fine Funny, I've been using Kermit since 1981 and FTP since 1985 and I still don't know which egg/chicken came first. They seem awfully similar from a user's standpoint. Anybody know If FTP is based on Kermit or Vice-Versa? John A. From at258 at osfn.org Fri Mar 31 14:19:37 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Storage Machine 1 In-Reply-To: <38E4FCA4.3E53FC36@idirect.com> Message-ID: I was just looking over a notebook on what appears to be an OS called Storage Machine 1 by FileTek. I was wondering if anyone knows anything about this, and what hardware it ran on. Some notes identify the cartridge tape drive as "TK50" and the system seesm to have had a big optical disk library device, about 2.3 or 2.6 gigs. Does this sound familiar to anyone? It came in a pile of material from a DG Nova system. From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Mar 31 14:27:53 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software References: <001801bf9b4b$4c12dba0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <38E50A49.94AFE3EF@mainecoon.com> John Allain wrote: > Funny, I've been using Kermit since 1981 and FTP since 1985 and > I still don't know which egg/chicken came first. > They seem awfully similar from a user's standpoint. > Anybody know If FTP is based on Kermit or Vice-Versa? Dunno, but I was using FTP in 1975-76. I'd guess that any behavioral resemblence is more a consequence of the two both having similar functions, i.e., moving files around, rather than any sort of common parentage... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Mar 31 14:31:27 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software Message-ID: <000331153127.22400ae9@trailing-edge.com> >Funny, I've been using Kermit since 1981 and FTP since 1985 and >I still don't know which egg/chicken came first. >They seem awfully similar from a user's standpoint. >Anybody know If FTP is based on Kermit or Vice-Versa? The first RFC for FTP is RFC 765, from June 1980. It begins: The objectives of FTP are 1) to promote sharing of files (computer programs and/or data), 2) to encourage indirect or implicit (via programs) use of remote computers, 3) to shield a user from variations in file storage systems among Hosts, and 4) to transfer data reliably and efficiently. FTP, though usable directly by a user at a terminal, is designed mainly for use by programs. Note that today there are few "programs" that know how to speak FTP directly, when someone says "FTP this" they almost always mean running the user-types-command-to-a-FTP-client. (Yes, there certainly are some programs that know how to speak FTP, I'm just pointing out that this isn't as common as the originators of the protocol wanted. If anything, it seems to be gaining in popularity as a "built-in" protocol, for example wget will take a ftp: or http: URL quite interchangably.) The user interface for both Kermit and FTP certainly are similar, and that shouldn't be a surprise, since the "big iron" being hooked up to other "big iron" in that day was almost always PDP-10 to PDP-10. Both the Kermit and FTP command styles are descended from the PDP-10 conventions (the TOPS-20 monitor in particular.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Mar 31 14:35:19 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Storage Machine 1 Message-ID: <000331153519.22400ae9@trailing-edge.com> >I was just looking over a notebook on what appears to be an OS called >Storage Machine 1 by FileTek. I was wondering if anyone knows anything >about this, and what hardware it ran on. Some notes identify the >cartridge tape drive as "TK50" and the system seesm to have had a big optical >disk library device, about 2.3 or 2.6 gigs. > >Does this sound familiar to anyone? It came in a pile of material from a >DG Nova system. >From www.filetek.com: William C. Thompson and John Burgess founded FileTek in 1984 to address the need for making very large volumes of offline information accessible to online users of mainframes minicomputers, and networked workstations. They firmly believed that historic detail has an increased value when organizations can access and use it productively. In 1987, FileTek introduced its first product, Storage Machine/1, a shared client/server-based, automatically managed storage server. This innovative data server used sophisticated storage management software to control a storage hierarchy of magnetic disk and write once read many (WORM) optical technology. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Mar 31 14:46:31 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software Message-ID: <000331154631.22400ae9@trailing-edge.com> I wrote: >The first RFC for FTP is RFC 765, from June 1980. It begins: Whoops, I found several earlier ones, extending all the way back to RFC 354 (from 8-Jul-1972). This references RFC264, which doesn't seem to exist anymore. Tim. From pat at transarc.ibm.com Fri Mar 31 14:56:46 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Original ARPANET protocols (was: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software) In-Reply-To: <38E50A49.94AFE3EF@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Mar 2000, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > Dunno, but I was using FTP in 1975-76. I'd guess that > any behavioral resemblence is more a consequence of the > two both having similar functions, i.e., moving files > around, rather than any sort of common parentage... > If you were using it in 1975-1976, it wasn't FTP as it exists today - it would be the FTP implemented on top of the "old" ARPANET protocols (sometimes referred to as "NCP", but I believe more properly referred to as simply "Host-to-Host Protocol"). But that reminds me of a question I had while I was having lunch today ... Was there ever an implementation of the old ARPANET protocols on a PDP-11 or VAX Unix? If it ever existed, I'd guess it would have had to have been on top of Seventh Edition, but I can't recall ever seeing any drivers for an ACC LH/DH or DEC IMP-11 on any incarnation of that platform. Berkeley Unix added TCP/IP in 4.1a, but I don't remember if there had been any ARPANET support (for the old protocol) before that. --Pat. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Mar 31 15:29:19 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software In-Reply-To: <000331153127.22400ae9@trailing-edge.com>; from CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com on Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 03:31:27PM -0500 References: <000331153127.22400ae9@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000331162919.A1246@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Mar 31, 2000 at 03:31:27PM -0500, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > The user interface for both Kermit and FTP certainly are similar, and > that shouldn't be a surprise, since the "big iron" being hooked up to > other "big iron" in that day was almost always PDP-10 to PDP-10. Both > the Kermit and FTP command styles are descended from the PDP-10 conventions > (the TOPS-20 monitor in particular.) I think I remember some mention in at least the older versions of the Kermit protocol specs, of what other protocols they were inspired by. I forget whether FTP was mentioned specifically or whether they credited TCP/IP in general, but I think one or the other was in there. In any case there'd be only a general relationship rather than a direct connection, and I may have imagined the whole thing. It's been a while since I've had my hands on the doc I'm thinking of, I remember it was a slightly bleary printout from an IBM TN print train... John Wilson D Bit From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Mar 31 15:29:53 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Original ARPANET protocols (was: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software) References: Message-ID: <38E518D1.F5555A19@mainecoon.com> Pat Barron wrote: > If you were using it in 1975-1976, it wasn't FTP as it exists today - > it would be the FTP implemented on top of the "old" ARPANET protocols > (sometimes referred to as "NCP", but I believe more properly referred to > as simply "Host-to-Host Protocol"). That's correct. > But that reminds me of a question I had while I was having lunch today ... > Was there ever an implementation of the old ARPANET protocols on a PDP-11 > or VAX Unix? Not that I know of. There was an implementation running on a non-Unix capabilities-list operating system at LLL called, IIRC, RATS/RISOS that I believe had such an implementation. Everything else I came in contact with had VDH IMP interfaces. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Mar 31 16:28:57 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software In-Reply-To: "John Allain" "RE: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software" (Mar 31, 14:57) References: <001801bf9b4b$4c12dba0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <10003312328.ZM21720@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 31, 14:57, John Allain wrote: > Funny, I've been using Kermit since 1981 and FTP since 1985 and > I still don't know which egg/chicken came first. > They seem awfully similar from a user's standpoint. > Anybody know If FTP is based on Kermit or Vice-Versa? They're fairly different "inside". For example, kermit assumes an "unreliable" connection, and does it's own error-checking, while FTP relies to some extent on a transport layer that already has error-checking. I suppose they naturally have some similarities on the "outside" because they serve similar purposes, though. Anyway, kermit predates FTP by a few years. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Mar 31 17:35:44 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Qbus cards that need ID Message-ID: <60.1cba69f.26169050@aol.com> I have four Qbus cards that I am interested in finding out what they are. One is a Micro Technology QTS25. It has a 50 pin header. I was wondering if it was a SCSI card? The second is an Emulex QD331040100 Rev. J. This has a 60 pin header and two 26 pin headers. I was wondering if this was a SMD drive controller? The third is a Dilog DQ696-20.vThis has a 34 pin header and two 20 pin header. My guess is that it is a MFM or ESDI hard drive controller. In the same group of cards is a DEC M7546 which I believe is a TK50 tape drive controller. Why is it called a Maya Controller? Thanks for the help. Paxton From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Fri Mar 31 18:02:54 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Acorn A4 website? Message-ID: <20000401000254.63957.qmail@hotmail.com> Does anybody know where (if?) there is a dedicated website for the Acorn A4 laptop? All my searching turned up nil. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Mar 31 18:16:50 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Original ARPANET protocols (was: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software) Message-ID: <001001bf9b6f$943241e0$7564c0d0@ajp166> I thought the classic PDP-11 unix way was UUCP. Allison ..>On Fri, 31 Mar 2000, Chris Kennedy wrote: >> >> Dunno, but I was using FTP in 1975-76. I'd guess that >> any behavioral resemblence is more a consequence of the >> two both having similar functions, i.e., moving files >> around, rather than any sort of common parentage... >> > >If you were using it in 1975-1976, it wasn't FTP as it exists today - >it would be the FTP implemented on top of the "old" ARPANET protocols >(sometimes referred to as "NCP", but I believe more properly referred to >as simply "Host-to-Host Protocol"). > >But that reminds me of a question I had while I was having lunch today ... >Was there ever an implementation of the old ARPANET protocols on a PDP-11 >or VAX Unix? If it ever existed, I'd guess it would have had to have been >on top of Seventh Edition, but I can't recall ever seeing any drivers for >an ACC LH/DH or DEC IMP-11 on any incarnation of that platform. Berkeley >Unix added TCP/IP in 4.1a, but I don't remember if there had been any >ARPANET support (for the old protocol) before that. > >--Pat. > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Mar 31 18:54:22 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Qbus cards that need ID In-Reply-To: <60.1cba69f.26169050@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000331165111.00d0ba20@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 06:35 PM 3/31/00 -0500, Paxton wrote: >One is a Micro Technology QTS25. It has a 50 pin header. I was wondering if >it was a SCSI card? I've never seen one "in-the-flesh" as it were but the picture of one I saw looked like a SCSI card based on the Viking design. You can identify it by the single LED, and the microprocessor on it. >The second is an Emulex QD331040100 Rev. J. This has a 60 pin header and two >26 pin headers. I was wondering if this was a SMD drive controller? No clue. >The third is a Dilog DQ696-20.vThis has a 34 pin header and two 20 pin >header. My guess is that it is a MFM or ESDI hard drive controller. This is the "fast" version of the Dilog ESDI controller. It will control two drives and can handle 20Mhz drives w/ 1:1 interleave. (24Mhz drives still need 2:1). In my experience it is more rare than the 696-15 and plain 696 which is I believe 10Mhz. Its a nice controller (I've got two) and supported by NetBSD. Info is still available from the Manufacturer! >In the same group of cards is a DEC M7546 which I believe is a TK50 tape >drive controller. Why is it called a Maya Controller? No clue on what the history is on this one. --Chuck From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Mar 31 19:17:45 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Qbus cards that need ID In-Reply-To: <60.1cba69f.26169050@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000331171745.0093eb70@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 18:35 31-03-2000 EST, Paxton wrote: >I have four Qbus cards that I am interested in finding out what they are. > >One is a Micro Technology QTS25. It has a 50 pin header. I was wondering if >it was a SCSI card? QTS, IIRC, is (I'm pretty sure) a Viking Systems designation. Since Viking made SCSI adapters for QBus and UniBus, I would consider that a likely guess. Couple of ways to tell. First, look around the header to see if there are any termination resistor packs. If there are, and they have a value stamp along the lines of '221/331,' AND there are at least two, then it is very possible you have a SCSI board. Second way: Use an ohmmeter to check continuity between a known ground point and the even-numbered pins on the header. If it is a SCSI connection, all the even-numbered pins (with the exception of pin 26) will be grounded (and pin 26 will be tied to +5V, probably). >The second is an Emulex QD331040100 Rev. J. This has a 60 pin header and two >26 pin headers. I was wondering if this was a SMD drive controller? Right the first time. It can handle two drives. >The third is a Dilog DQ696-20.vThis has a 34 pin header and two 20 pin >header. My guess is that it is a MFM or ESDI hard drive controller. Your second guess is correct. It's ESDI. Up to four drives, IIRC. >In the same group of cards is a DEC M7546 which I believe is a TK50 tape >drive controller. Why is it called a Maya Controller? No idea, but you're correct again. The official designation is TQK50. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Mar 31 19:19:10 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Qbus cards that need ID Message-ID: <000331201910.22400af8@trailing-edge.com> >One is a Micro Technology QTS25. It has a 50 pin header. I was wondering if >it was a SCSI card? This is a TD Systems Viking controller, tape-only. >The second is an Emulex QD331040100 Rev. J. This has a 60 pin header and two >26 pin headers. I was wondering if this was a SMD drive controller? That's right, a QD33, MSCP emulating. It handles fairly fast SMD drives (i.e. Eagles, 2344's, etc.) >In the same group of cards is a DEC M7546 which I believe is a TK50 tape >drive controller. Why is it called a Maya Controller? I believe that Maya was the DEC development code-name for the TK50. The Aztec, IIRC, was the RC25. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 31 19:39:44 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Qbus cards that need ID In-Reply-To: <60.1cba69f.26169050@aol.com> from "Innfogra@aol.com" at Mar 31, 2000 06:35:44 PM Message-ID: <200004010139.RAA17094@shell1.aracnet.com> > I have four Qbus cards that I am interested in finding out what they are. > > One is a Micro Technology QTS25. It has a 50 pin header. I was wondering if > it was a SCSI card? It's a tape only SCSI card. The rest of this is straight out of the field guide that Megan has. http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt > The second is an Emulex QD331040100 Rev. J. This has a 60 pin header and two > 26 pin headers. I was wondering if this was a SMD drive controller? QD33 Q Emulex SMD controller for up to two SMD disks. Supports SMD-0 and SMD-E, with data rates up to 24MHz for SMD-E. MSCP emulation. DMA (uses adaptive techniques and block mode, supports scatter-write and gather-read on the uVAX-I). > The third is a Dilog DQ696-20.vThis has a 34 pin header and two 20 pin > header. My guess is that it is a MFM or ESDI hard drive controller. DQ696 Q Dilog 2 x ESDI disk controller. Emulates MSCP. (supports Fujitsu 2333) > In the same group of cards is a DEC M7546 which I believe is a TK50 tape > drive controller. Why is it called a Maya Controller? M7546 TQK50-AA Q TMSCP controller for TK50 tape unit M7546 Refs: uNOTE N#041 Zane From marvin at rain.org Fri Mar 31 21:47:58 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Possible treasure haul...help? References: Message-ID: <38E5716E.CE865C20@rain.org> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > He's in the process of relocating, and has a 16' x 16' x 5' high > (seriously, almost square) pile of junk that hasn't been sorted through. > I've been thinking of offering a couple of weekends of work helping > sort/move stuff in exchange for any old computer stuff I could > glean...anyone in the area (or any area, for that matter) interested in > helping out? Since Ventura is about 30 miles from here, I would be interested. As much as I hate rummaging through piles of treas^h^h^h^h^h junk, I could be talked into it. It really doesn't sound like a lot of stuff (perhaps a bit smaller than the stuff in my garage) so it shouldn't take too long :). From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Mar 31 22:38:31 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: IC ID help needed Message-ID: <20000401043831.15205.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> I've done the basic digging (www.chipdir.com, etc.) and can't find info on the following chips I found in a box of stuff some one gave me a while back: AMD 91L02 - I know it's some kind of SRAM but not the size or pinout. The 9101 is 256x4. This one is likely to be either 1024x1 or 1024x4 but I don't know which. NS 74C921 - The 74C922 and 74C923 are somewhat common keyboard encoders, one of which was used on the Netronics Elf-II design. I can't find any info on the pinout of the 74C921, but I did find several places selling them from $6 USD to 72 Danish Kroner (however much that is) I have a few of each, along with 2Kb of 21L02 chips (-2L and -4L speeds, whatever they are), all with 1979 - 1983 date codes. Any clues? Thanks, -ethan ===== Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com The original webpage address is still going away. The permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Fri Mar 31 23:44:22 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: IC ID help needed References: <20000401043831.15205.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000901bf9b9d$57ddfd00$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded comments below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Ethan Dicks To: classiccmp list Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 9:38 PM Subject: IC ID help needed > > I've done the basic digging (www.chipdir.com, etc.) and can't find info > on the following chips I found in a box of stuff some one gave me a while > back: > > AMD 91L02 - I know it's some kind of SRAM but not the size or pinout. The 9101 > is 256x4. This one is likely to be either 1024x1 or 1024x4 but I don't know > which. > This one's a regular 21L02 as made by AMD. That's a 1K-bit by 1 SRAM with separate D and Q. > > NS 74C921 - The 74C922 and 74C923 are somewhat common keyboard encoders, one > of which was used on the Netronics Elf-II design. I can't find any info on > the pinout of the 74C921, but I did find several places selling them from > $6 USD to 72 Danish Kroner (however much that is) > It's not in my National CMOS databook, though the 922 and 923 as well as the numbers below are represented. The 74C-series was a National Semiconductor line which I believe they had pretty much to themselves. My data book is of 1988 date. I don't know why it's not in the book, unless perhaps it was already dead and buried in '88. > > I have a few of each, along with 2Kb of 21L02 chips (-2L and -4L speeds, > whatever they are), all with 1979 - 1983 date codes. > > Any clues? > > Thanks, > > -ethan > > > ===== > Even though my old e-mail address is no longer going to > vanish, please note my new public address: erd@iname.com > > The original webpage address is still going away. The > permanent home is: http://penguincentral.com/ > > See http://ohio.voyager.net/ for details. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com From whdawson at mlynk.com Fri Mar 31 23:48:07 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: IC ID help needed In-Reply-To: <20000401043831.15205.qmail@web612.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001d01bf9b9d$db302700$b1e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> I've done the basic digging (www.chipdir.com, etc.) and can't find info -> on the following chips I found in a box of stuff some one gave me a while -> back: -> -> AMD 91L02 - I know it's some kind of SRAM but not the size or -> pinout. The 9101 is 256x4. This one is likely to be either 1024x1 or 1024x4 but -> I don't know which. IIRC, this is the same as a 21L02, a lower power version of the 2102. AMD just subs a 9 for a 2. 1024x1, BTW. -> NS 74C921 - The 74C922 and 74C923 are somewhat common keyboard -> encoders, one of which was used on the Netronics Elf-II design. I can't find -> any info on the pinout of the 74C921, but I did find several places selling -> them from $6 USD to 72 Danish Kroner (however much that is) Sorry, can't help on this one. -> I have a few of each, along with 2Kb of 21L02 chips (-2L and -4L speeds, -> whatever they are) -2L = 200ns, -4L = 400ns -> -ethan Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Mar 31 17:17:15 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: Possible treasure haul...help? In-Reply-To: References: <2921A6D846E9D31182490050040DC0D63AAC2E@hoexc101.hotoffice.com> Message-ID: >For anyone in Southern California (specifically Ventura area): I made a >contact with an eBay-only reseller (mostly test equipment) who >occasionally picks up old computer junk. Up until now, he usually scraps >pounds of gear alone, but we do what we must. It could work out well; he >was complaining about his shortage of time/labor, and at the same time >basically saying that all of the computer stuff he has is worth almost >nothing to him... I've done this in the past, and my suggestion is to do it gradually, ie don't drive up and work your tail off all weekend then see how the reward side of it goes. I would attempt to cut a CLEAR deal up front, what it is you will do, and how much you will pay for "anything" you find in the pile. What I very much dislike is the practice among scrappers that once your find and ID an item then the price rises like bubbles in soda. Offering labor until you are sick of it, and x cents per pound, is the prudent path. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Mar 31 17:37:24 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:29 2005 Subject: I need some PDP-11 RT11 archiving software In-Reply-To: <38E50A49.94AFE3EF@mainecoon.com> References: <001801bf9b4b$4c12dba0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: >Dunno, but I was using FTP in 1975-76. I'd guess that >any behavioral resemblence is more a consequence of the >two both having similar functions, i.e., moving files >around, rather than any sort of common parentage... I remember my wife bringing home a little sheet of paper with some stuff to type in on my Apple II and it downloaded a working version of Kermit from the university computers. I still don't know how to use Kermit. ;) But I don't let that get in the way of using it a little.