From west at tseinc.com Wed Feb 2 19:07:06 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: test Message-ID: <006101bf6de2$fe76d3a0$0101a8c0@jay> Test... Jay West From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 2 19:38:43 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: test References: <006101bf6de2$fe76d3a0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <0002022038570C.17380@vault.neurotica.com> On Wed, 02 Feb 2000, Jay West wrote: >Test... *burp* It works. -Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 2 19:52:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <006101bf6de2$fe76d3a0$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Feb 2, 0 07:07:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 462 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000203/13872725/attachment.ksh From aek at spies.com Wed Feb 2 20:02:16 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: test Message-ID: <200002030202.SAA08294@spies.com> looks like it's working while the list was down, this was sent to me: Subject: Orphaned Altos 586 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I have a working system with all software and documentation. It NEEDS a good HOME. Can you help find one for this lonely machine? Reagrds Ron Tribble yehudi@pipeline.com From west at tseinc.com Wed Feb 2 19:47:40 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: List starting up.... Message-ID: <008a01bf6de8$a9179b00$0101a8c0@jay> Test part two..... Howdy folks. The classiccmp list appears to be working. There are still some questions about if digests are working properly among a few other housekeeping things that need to be more thoroughly tested. Please bear with us as we work out any kinks. First, some general points to everyone: *I* am not the classiccmp list owner or moderator, I only administer the servers where it runs. Derek still is the owner of the list and as such is the one who "calls the shots". Because of that, if there are any problems with the mailing list, please contact Derek and not me. I will gladly assist Derek anytime he requests it in any way he wishes. If there is a very critical issue that Derek can't respond to (out of town, sick, etc.) feel free to email me the request. However, depending on what you ask I reserve the right to say "That will have to wait until Derek can act on it" because I'm not here to "step on his feet". Of course if the list just simply isn't working at all, you can bet I'll take a look at it quickly. Please keep the list traffic low until Derek has a chance to make any announcements. I'm getting ready to email him the admin issues now. Quick summary: For help with majordomo, email majordomo@classiccmp.org with keyword "help" To subscribe, email majordomo@classiccmp.org with keyword "subscribe classiccmp" To unsubscribe.... that's obvious.... To send out list traffic, email classiccmp@classiccmp.org Final note - Anything I've just said can be over-ruled by Derek, so if he posts a startup announcement it'd be a good thing to read. Regards, Jay West From bobcaar at cyberdude.com Wed Feb 2 20:04:53 2000 From: bobcaar at cyberdude.com (Devon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <006101bf6de2$fe76d3a0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000202210453.007b21c0@mail.iname.com> Aloha? Whats happening with this? At 07:07 PM 02/02/00 -0600, you wrote: >Test... > >Jay West From elvey at hal.com Wed Feb 2 20:07:36 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: First real message In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002030207.SAA05393@civic.hal.com> Hi All I'm looking for tiny basic on the 6502. I'll take listings, binary, S format, Hex, PROMs or what ever. Thanks Dwight From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Feb 2 20:10:34 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: test References: <006101bf6de2$fe76d3a0$0101a8c0@jay> <0002022038570C.17380@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3898E399.A612AEF2@idirect.com> >Dave McGuire wrote: > On Wed, 02 Feb 2000, Jay West wrote: > >Test... > > *burp* > > It works. > > -Dave Jerome Fine replies: Hurrah!!!!!! ME ALSO!!!!! I wonder if you would prefer if the "Respond To" portion should be: "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" as it used to???? (Well it used to be: "classiccmp@u.washington.edu") I know that sometimes caused a bit of a problem for posts that were supposed to be off list, but I think that is the more intended aspect????? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From west at tseinc.com Wed Feb 2 19:59:14 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: test References: <3.0.1.32.20000202210453.007b21c0@mail.iname.com> Message-ID: <00c601bf6dea$469afb00$0101a8c0@jay> You wrote.... > Aloha? > Whats happening with this? > > At 07:07 PM 02/02/00 -0600, you wrote: > >Test... > > > >Jay West Aloha? Are you thinking the time is off on the server? Nope... not at all. The server is located in St. Louis, Missouri, where CST/CDT is GMT-6:00. Or did I misunderstand what you're referring to? Jay West From ks at coastalnet.com Wed Feb 2 20:13:14 2000 From: ks at coastalnet.com (KS) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: Very Good! Message-ID: <3898E43A.792E@coastalnet.com> Looks like the new server is up... have really missed all that daily info! Kirk Scott ks@coastalnet.com From west at tseinc.com Wed Feb 2 20:08:46 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... References: <006101bf6de2$fe76d3a0$0101a8c0@jay> <0002022038570C.17380@vault.neurotica.com> <3898E399.A612AEF2@idirect.com> Message-ID: <00dc01bf6deb$9b69af40$0101a8c0@jay> Several people wrote.... > I wonder if you would prefer if the "Respond To" portion should be: > > "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" > > as it used to???? (Well it used to be: "classiccmp@u.washington.edu") > I know that sometimes caused a bit of a problem for posts that were > supposed to be off list, but I think that is the more intended aspect????? I've had a fair amount of experience using (and setting up and running) quite a few mailing lists. The way they were always set up was the user sent to the list, and the list sent the mail back to all the subscribers with the reply address being the user who sent the post originally. In this manner if you hit the REPLY button to a post, your message goes to the person who sent the post, not the list. If you hit the REPLY ALL button, then your response went to the list AND the original poster. This is how 99.9% of all the lists I've ever seen are configured. As a result, I've always wondered why on classiccmp the reply address was the list. Using that method the benefit is that everyone can see what's going on. The drawback is it's very very easy to send posts intended to be private to the list. I'm not saying any of this to say how it should be set up. That's not my call. I'm just saying what I've typically seen on other lists. If Derek wants it changed to the old method, he can do it or he can call me to do it. I personally prefer the new way, but my vote doesn't count! :) Jay West From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Feb 2 20:29:07 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: test In-Reply-To: ; from Tony Duell on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 01:52:34AM +0000 References: <006101bf6de2$fe76d3a0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <20000202192907.A24220@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 01:52:34AM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Test... > > Seems to be working :-)... Wow neat, I've been off this list for ages, hadn't taken the time to find out how to resubscribe. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 2 20:36:53 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: List starting up.... In-Reply-To: <008a01bf6de8$a9179b00$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Feb 02, 2000 07:47:40 PM Message-ID: <200002030236.SAA23522@shell1.aracnet.com> Can we get it fixed so that replies go to the list instead of the author of the message? Great to see it's back! Zane > To send out list traffic, email classiccmp@classiccmp.org From liste at artware.qc.ca Wed Feb 2 20:45:28 2000 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <00dc01bf6deb$9b69af40$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: On 03-Feb-00 Jay West wrote: > Several people wrote.... >> I wonder if you would prefer if the "Respond To" portion should be: >> >> "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" >> >> as it used to???? (Well it used to be: "classiccmp@u.washington.edu") >> I know that sometimes caused a bit of a problem for posts that were >> supposed to be off list, but I think that is the more intended >> aspect????? The best text on the subject i've seen is ``Reply-To'' Munging Considered Harmful by Chip Rosenthal. http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html -Philip From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 2 20:55:04 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <00c601bf6dea$469afb00$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Feb 02, 2000 07:59:14 PM Message-ID: <200002030255.SAA23978@shell1.aracnet.com> > You wrote.... > > Aloha? > > Whats happening with this? > > > > At 07:07 PM 02/02/00 -0600, you wrote: > > >Test... > > > > > >Jay West > > Aloha? Are you thinking the time is off on the server? Nope... not at all. > The server is located in St. Louis, Missouri, where CST/CDT is GMT-6:00. > > Or did I misunderstand what you're referring to? > > Jay West > Might mean 'hello', of course I'm sitting in Aloha, as I type this :^) Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 2 21:00:02 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) Message-ID: <200002030300.TAA24080@shell1.aracnet.com> > I'm not saying any of this to say how it should be set up. That's not my > call. I'm just saying what I've typically seen on other lists. If Derek > wants it changed to the old method, he can do it or he can call me to do it. > > I personally prefer the new way, but my vote doesn't count! :) > > Jay West I personally vote for the old way! I'm on quite a few different ML's and only the DECnet/Linux one does it this way. It's more of a pain to have to get the correct TO: with it set this way that the old way! Especially if I'm using 'elm', like right now, since I either have to forward it to the ML, or remember to chage the TO: after I'm done typing the message. Zane From west at tseinc.com Wed Feb 2 20:52:17 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING References: Message-ID: <014201bf6df1$afe91fe0$0101a8c0@jay> Several people wrote.... >I wonder if you would prefer if the "Respond To" portion should be: > >"classiccmp@classiccmp.org" > >as it used to???? (Well it used to be: "classiccmp@u.washington.edu") >I know that sometimes caused a bit of a problem for posts that were >supposed to be off list, but I think that is the more intended >aspect????? To which Philip replied... > The best text on the subject i've seen is ``Reply-To'' Munging Considered > Harmful by Chip Rosenthal. > > http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html Anyone who wants the reply address mechanism changed should of course contact Derek. However, I strongly suggest that before anyone finalizes their mindset on this to please read the text page at the url that Philip provided above first. I've rarely seen a better argument made. There - that's my 2 cents worth I've always wondered why the list was set up the way it was. It could be the mail software that Derek had available to use, which is not the same as the mailing list software he's got now. Or perhaps there was a concious decision to do it that way on his part or the part of the list community as a whole. As a relative newbie to the list, I have no idea. Just some random thoughts... Jay West From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Feb 2 21:18:25 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: Getting out of collecting, mostly Message-ID: <200002030318.UAA01753@calico.litterbox.com> After some soul searching, I've finally realised I really don't want to collect anymore. No, it has nothing to do with anyone or anything that has happened on this list, and because I'm keeping my Vax (to hopefully do useful work for me) I'll still be here on this list. I've just realised that *having* these machines doesn't do alot for me, and I don't seem to bother messing with them very often. So what this means is I'm beginning the process of liquidating my collection. Ideally I'd like to sell to people in the Colorado Springs/Denver metro area so shipping isn't as much of a pain, but we'll see how it goes. The way I'm going to work this is: If you are interested in a piece, e-mail me privately. I'll 1. Make sure the piece works. When my shelves got knocked over a lot of hardware got dumped on the floor. 2. Negotiate a price with you. 3. Negotiate delivery methods with you. I'm not looking to turn a profit on most of this stuff - I just want to get rid of it and see that it goes to a good home. What I have: Apple2 GS #1. 8mb of Ram, ramfast SCSI, 120 meg (I think) SCSI disk (no enclosure for the disk) 1 3.5 inch apple floppy drive, 1 5.25 inch apple floppy drive. 1 monitor. Apple2GS #2 4mb of RAM, parallel card, 2 3.5 inch apple floppy drive, 2 5.25 inch apple floppy drives. Monitor may work, but both the system and the monitor fell off the shelf they were on when a cat managed to push the shelves over. Apple2E Enhanced apple2E ROMS, 64 K of RAM. Ramfast SCSI, 40 meg SCSI hard disk (no enclosure for disk) 2 5.25 inch apple floppy drives. 1 monitor. 1 kensington system saver. Tiger Learning Computer - Not really a classic except that inside what looks like a laptop (but isn't - it has no integral screen) is an apple2C with cartrige drives. Hooks to your TV. This one amuses me a lot, so unlike the rest it will require significant cash to separate it from me. Commodore 64 nasty looking, but works fine. New keyboard. Includes 1541 floppy drive and new monitor cable. Squeeky clean inside, since I used its motherboard to verify that yes, washing them in the dishwasher IS ok. Kaypro 4/84 Good condition, both drives work. Some software. Misc Monitors one commodore monitor - barely works. 1 cga/ega (not sure which) might work, don't have the hardware to test it. Misc 486 PC hardware - again, not quite classic, although I think the original 486 might be by now. Misc Apple2GS software - many titles old and new. New includes Orca C. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From generic3 at home.com Wed Feb 2 21:21:11 2000 From: generic3 at home.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: WPL file (PFS WinWorks Spreadsheets) Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000202221907.0097cdc0@popmail.voicenet.com> I am trying to find a converter or reader for .WPL file (PFS WinWorks Spreadsheets} Any thoughts ????????? ------------------------------------------------------ On-Line Computer & Video Game Garage Sale http://www.voicenet.com/~generic gene@ehrich.com generic3@home.com Gene Ehrich From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 2 21:56:42 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: List starting up.... References: <200002030236.SAA23522@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3898FC7A.F83A7DC6@rain.org> Whew, the withdrawal was almost too much :). Thanks to Jay and Derek for getting the list up and running again!!! Also, I would second the motion to change the reply function back to reply to the list instead of the individual sending the message. And yes, I did read Chip Rosenthal's comments. Marvin From djenner at halcyon.com Wed Feb 2 21:54:46 2000 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) References: <200002030300.TAA24080@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3898FC06.BEDD05E2@halcyon.com> I vote for the new way. It's now trivial to reply either to the sender alone, the sender and the list, or the list alone. With a decent mailer each of these options is now one click. Vastly superior. Dave healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > > I'm not saying any of this to say how it should be set up. That's not my > > call. I'm just saying what I've typically seen on other lists. If Derek > > wants it changed to the old method, he can do it or he can call me to do it. > > > > I personally prefer the new way, but my vote doesn't count! :) > > > > Jay West > > I personally vote for the old way! I'm on quite a few different ML's and > only the DECnet/Linux one does it this way. It's more of a pain to have to > get the correct TO: with it set this way that the old way! Especially if > I'm using 'elm', like right now, since I either have to forward it to the > ML, or remember to chage the TO: after I'm done typing the message. > > Zane From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Feb 2 21:57:51 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: Welcome Back! and Pro 350's Message-ID: Very Big Welcome Back to the List... I was just starting to not be able to control my withdrawal symptoms. Many Many thanks to Jay and Derek for keeping this alive! While the List was sleeping, I was given two DEC Pro 350's, with a huge box of software and docs. I have one up and running now, using a VR241 RGB color display. (I have yet to try the other unit.) I have about 20 grey DEC slipcover-type software packages, with 14 or so being the communications set, but I also have the Install and Maintenance, both Disk systems, Basic, Prose, and a third-party database application builder called RDM by Interactive Technology Inc. (2 copies of this). All of the slipcases contain diskettes, and most are still unopened internally. Also in the load was the Technical manual and the engineering printsets. Additionally there is a Floating Point adapter in it's box... the maintenance program informs me that the unit I have running contains one already, and 768 KW of RAM to go with the 5-meg Hard Drive. I have no idea what this model must have cost in 1982 when it was new, with 8-of-256 colors and as slow as it is... but it sure is fascinating to see how far we've come. Cheers John From whdawson at mlynk.com Wed Feb 2 22:15:06 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bf6dfd$4069eb20$53e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Philip (and the list) I agree it should now be left as it is. Chip has a compelling and logical argument, with which I concur. I, for one, don't like having to rummage thru a message header in order to find an email address in order to reply to a list member, instead of the entire list membership. I don't mind having to send messages in plain text, to accommodate those members of this list who are "mailer disadvantaged". I believe, however, that the majority of us have "Reply" and "Reply to All" functions inherent in our mailer software. The new way things are set up appears to be a reasonable compromise to me. FWIW, Bill whdawson@mlynk.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of liste@artware.qc.ca Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 9:45 PM To: Jay West Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: regarding the reply address on the list.... On 03-Feb-00 Jay West wrote: > Several people wrote.... >> I wonder if you would prefer if the "Respond To" portion should be: >> >> "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" >> >> as it used to???? (Well it used to be: "classiccmp@u.washington.edu") >> I know that sometimes caused a bit of a problem for posts that were >> supposed to be off list, but I think that is the more intended >> aspect????? The best text on the subject i've seen is ``Reply-To'' Munging Considered Harmful by Chip Rosenthal. http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html -Philip From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Feb 2 22:38:37 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... References: <006101bf6de2$fe76d3a0$0101a8c0@jay> <0002022038570C.17380@vault.neurotica.com> <3898E399.A612AEF2@idirect.com> <00dc01bf6deb$9b69af40$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3899064D.6A1FE560@idirect.com> >Jay West wrote: > I've had a fair amount of experience using (and setting up and running) > quite a few mailing lists. The way they were always set up was the user sent > to the list, and the list sent the mail back to all the subscribers with the > reply address being the user who sent the post originally. In this manner if > you hit the REPLY button to a post, your message goes to the person who sent > the post, not the list. If you hit the REPLY ALL button, then your response > went to the list AND the original poster. This is how 99.9% of all the lists > I've ever seen are configured. > > As a result, I've always wondered why on classiccmp the reply address was > the list. Using that method the benefit is that everyone can see what's > going on. The drawback is it's very very easy to send posts intended to be > private to the list. Jerome Fine replies: Thanks to Jay and Derek from this list member as well. What ever you two or the others decide is fine with me. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 22:44:46 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) Message-ID: <20000203044446.19549.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- "David C. Jenner" wrote: > I vote for the new way. It's now trivial to > reply either to the sender alone, the sender > and the list, or the list alone. > > With a decent mailer each of these options is > now one click. I don't mind the new way (I use a web-based mail interface due to all the attachments I get from another list and can click "Reply" or "Reply All"), but how are the posters of articles going to feel about receiving a response twice to their postings, once direct and once via the list? If people don't mind, I don't mind either. It was always extra work to reply to an individual with the old scheme. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 22:44:46 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) Message-ID: <20000203044446.19549.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- "David C. Jenner" wrote: > I vote for the new way. It's now trivial to > reply either to the sender alone, the sender > and the list, or the list alone. > > With a decent mailer each of these options is > now one click. I don't mind the new way (I use a web-based mail interface due to all the attachments I get from another list and can click "Reply" or "Reply All"), but how are the posters of articles going to feel about receiving a response twice to their postings, once direct and once via the list? If people don't mind, I don't mind either. It was always extra work to reply to an individual with the old scheme. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Feb 2 23:37:21 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: Yeah Baby! VAX 4000/300 questions Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000202213122.024d0cb0@mcmanis.com> Boy, is it glad to have this resource back! I received a VAX 4000/300 and have been integrating it into my VAX herd but it has the annoying tendency to _always_ ask for my language preference on power on. I've done the 'set language' and I've tried the dial selector in all three positions but no joy. The other thing this VAX came with was a "remote service console" or some such. It looks like a powered A/B switch except that you switch it with the VAX key, it has two sets of three push buttons and four DB25 connectors on the back. Can anyone tell me how to use this thing? --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 3 00:09:56 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: Yeah Baby! VAX 4000/300 questions In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000202213122.024d0cb0@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Feb 02, 2000 09:37:21 PM Message-ID: <200002030609.WAA26834@shell1.aracnet.com> > Boy, is it glad to have this resource back! Aren't we all! :^) > I received a VAX 4000/300 and have been integrating it into my VAX herd but > it has the annoying tendency to _always_ ask for my language preference on > power on. I've done the 'set language' and I've tried the dial selector in > all three positions but no joy. Dead battery? I've noticed that the MicroVAX 3 that I have in a Sigma Rack mount tends to do the same thing unless I've had it on for a while and then take it down and back up. ISTR, reading somewhere the battery is necessary to keep that and other parameters saved. Of course the MV3 is a rather older class system compared to your VAX 4000/300. Zane From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 01:56:02 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: <014201bf6df1$afe91fe0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Jay West wrote: > I've always wondered why the list was set up the way it was. It could be the > mail software that Derek had available to use, which is not the same as the > mailing list software he's got now. Or perhaps there was a concious decision > to do it that way on his part or the part of the list community as a whole. > As a relative newbie to the list, I have no idea. Just some random > thoughts... Because: a) it makes it more of a BBS, with all messages being contributed to the public good by default instead of private threads being spawned off b) who the hell wants to have to read the same message TWICE? (once from the list and once from the replier) c) it's an incredible pain in the ass having to edit the reply-to addresses for every damn message you reply to Besides, despite what the aforementioned article says, the previous list reply-to mechanism was working, and working well. The article is just a masturbatory entreaty for one persons personal preferences, and does not really take into account convenience for the overall list. Sure, once in a while people would goof and send a private reply to the list, but see a, b and c above. Change it back. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Feb 3 00:49:22 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:33 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: References: <00dc01bf6deb$9b69af40$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: >The best text on the subject i've seen is ``Reply-To'' Munging Considered >Harmful by Chip Rosenthal. > > http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html When I hit "reply to all" the list goes in the cc field and I have to cut and paste it into the send field instead of sending a bunch of innocent people multiple replies. 95% of the time I want to reply to the list. From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 02:03:14 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <000001bf6dfd$4069eb20$53e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Bill Dawson wrote: > I, for one, don't like having to rummage thru a message header in order to > find an email address in order to reply to a list member, instead of the > entire list membership. I don't understand where this is coming from. The previous method enabled one to: a) reply to the list or b) reply to the sender only And again, why would one want to reply to both the sender AND the list? Assuming the sender is a member of the list (99% of the time they are) they are going to get the message anyway. I hate it when I get two replies to the same message because someone was too lazy to edit the headers of a poorly configured list. The benefits of a list like this is that it is a public forum; it's like a bunch of geeks in a big circle jabbering to each other. That's what gives this list its unique character and usefulness. Change it back. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 02:09:41 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: Major gripe Message-ID: Ok, major gripe. With the old software, I could stay subscribed to the list to send messages, but could SET POSTPONE CLASSICCMP to effectively turn the messages off. There doesn't seem to be a way to do this with majordomo. I'll stay subscribed for now (so I can get some replies on this) but if I have to unsubscribe then I hope there is an easy mechanism for me to continue to post messages to the list without having to be subscribed. If not, I don't think I'll be passing on any messages from people coming to me with old hardware wanting to find new homes for it. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From mbg at world.std.com Thu Feb 3 01:37:02 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) Message-ID: <200002030737.CAA05816@world.std.com> I vote for the new way as well... it is now trivial for me to respond to either the author of a message or the list itself. Before, I had to do a cut and paste of the author's name in order to send mail to them... Yes, there will be occasions in which people send to an author when they meant the list, but heck, we've already had that in reverse... and for some messages it is most definitely more embarrassing to have them go to the list... So please keep it the new way... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From kevinm at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Thu Feb 3 01:39:48 2000 From: kevinm at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: PDP8/S then GRI-909 and the perhaps a british machine called the Molecular? Message-ID: <002b01bf6e19$d9291810$8700a8c0@xpuppy> Many years ago I worked on a minicomputer range manufactured in the UK. The series was the Molecular 18 sold by BCL Ltd. Having an interest in this machine, and in PDP8 machines, I have been looking for links between the two. (The two machines have quite a few similarities) In an interview, Saul Dinman (who designed the PDP8/S) talks about a later design called the GRI-909. Saul had left DEC at this stage I believe. The company that manufactured the early Molecular 18 machines in the UK was Allied Business Computers, who also produced a machine called the GRI-99. This all may be coincidence and fanciful, but does any one have any information of the GRI range of machines? (For more info on the Molecular 18, see www.classiccomputing.co.uk) Kevin Murrell UK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000203/c03659da/attachment.html From mbg at world.std.com Thu Feb 3 01:40:47 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING Message-ID: <200002030740.CAA07179@world.std.com> >a) it makes it more of a BBS, with all messages being contributed to the > public good by default instead of private threads being spawned off Which is still accomplished when someone replies to all >b) who the hell wants to have to read the same message TWICE? (once from > the list and once from the replier) Hey, these are computers! Certainly there has to be some way of telling it to send to the list rather than the list *and* the author (who is on the list). >c) it's an incredible pain in the ass having to edit the reply-to > addresses for every damn message you reply to And it is more of a pain having to find the author name and then do cut and paste to send to them specifically... some of us don't have mail readers which even allow us to change the To: or CC: field (or anything other than the message) once we're typing the message... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 3 02:07:18 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... References: <00dc01bf6deb$9b69af40$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <38993736.7704CEDD@rain.org> And while we are on the topic of the list server, is it possible to have a common date stamp put on all messages that are sent out from the listserver? One of the major pains I have is when messages come in from different time zones, and this ^%$^&$ software (Netscape Mail) sorts the damn stuff by date without the option of not sorting. Among other reasons, a common date stamp makes it FAR easier to keep track of who might be responding to something first. Sorry Mike for sending the message to you personally earlier; I ***REALLY DISLIKE*** the way the Reply is set up now. With almost everything I send going out to the list, this new method is a major pain as well as a waste of time having to deal with the *&%^$ headers on every message sent to the list. Mike Ford wrote: > > >The best text on the subject i've seen is ``Reply-To'' Munging Considered > >Harmful by Chip Rosenthal. > > > > http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html > > When I hit "reply to all" the list goes in the cc field and I have to cut > and paste it into the send field instead of sending a bunch of innocent > people multiple replies. 95% of the time I want to reply to the list. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 3 02:38:59 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: References: <014201bf6df1$afe91fe0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: Sellam wrote: >Because: > >a) it makes it more of a BBS, with all messages being contributed to the > public good by default instead of private threads being spawned off >b) who the hell wants to have to read the same message TWICE? (once from > the list and once from the replier) >c) it's an incredible pain in the ass having to edit the reply-to > addresses for every damn message you reply to Yes to everything! I just got home, and found that with the machine I use at home that this is even more of a royal pain! It looks like Eudora Pro doesn't have a group reply. I thought this was a pain in the neck with 'elm', and yes, multiple people have pointed out "Group Reply", but I don't consider sending the person who's message I'm replying to, two copies acceptable behavior! I know *I* don't want two copies everytime someone replies to something I wrote. Here is something else to consider, there have got to be list members that have to pay *PER MINUTE* connection fees (remember those? *I* sure do). You do a group reply to those folks, you're costing them money! Then there is the disk space and bandwidth wasted by two messages. Oh, and yes, these are a couple of the reasons that I get a more than a little irritated with non-ASCII email and binary attachments! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Thu Feb 3 02:44:30 2000 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: FW: AS/400 questions... Message-ID: OK, welcome back everyone.... I'm not sure if this email made it to the old list before it was stopped, so I'm resending (in other words, sorry if you've seen it twice!!) >Technically this shouldn't quite make the list (the machine's of 1991 vintage >apparently), but my work's throwing out an old AS/400 - I know nothing at all >about these machines but if it's getting slung then I may as well grab it and >take a look at the thing... > >Model number is 9404, big tower-style case, 8" floppy and (I believe) 150MB >QIC tape drive. > >It's got a console/terminal of some sort which is apparently dead (I haven't >looked at the cabling - can I wire up just about anything as a console or do >they use some strange protocol / signal levels?). Nobody knows how much disk >or memory it has in it and it hasn't been powered up in years. There's a box >of assorted junk with it, cables, keyboard etc. and someone said there's a >load of tapes for it too... > >So, initial questions: > >Does anyone have any handy web links to AS/400 stuff so I can get some more >information on this thing? (and AS/400s in general) > And does anyone know how hard OS install media is to get hold of from >IBM? It may be that someone here has the tapes (or whatever) but I'm not sure >(I'll try to hunt them out later). I don't know if I can be bothered >transporting it home when I don't even know if it works and possibly don't >have installation media if the system needs rebuilding!! > >cheers > >Jules > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 3 02:44:48 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <38993736.7704CEDD@rain.org> References: <00dc01bf6deb$9b69af40$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: >And while we are on the topic of the list server, is it possible to have a >common date stamp put on all messages that are sent out from the listserver? >One of the major pains I have is when messages come in from different time >zones, and this ^%$^&$ software (Netscape Mail) sorts the damn stuff by date >without the option of not sorting. Among other reasons, a common date stamp >makes it FAR easier to keep track of who might be responding to something >first. Oh, now that would be SERIOUSLY COOL! I'm using Eudora and sort stuff by date also. Drives me crazy when people have the clock on their computer *seriously* off. Although, thankfully doesn't sound like I've as much trouble as Netscape Mail causes. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spc at armigeron.com Thu Feb 3 03:02:08 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: from "liste@artware.qc.ca" at Feb 02, 2000 09:45:28 PM Message-ID: <200002030902.EAA29776@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great liste@artware.qc.ca once stated (and will get two copies of this): > > > On 03-Feb-00 Jay West wrote: > > Several people wrote.... > >> I wonder if you would prefer if the "Respond To" portion should be: > >> > >> "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" > >> > >> as it used to???? (Well it used to be: "classiccmp@u.washington.edu") > >> I know that sometimes caused a bit of a problem for posts that were > >> supposed to be off list, but I think that is the more intended > >> aspect????? > > The best text on the subject i've seen is ``Reply-To'' Munging Considered > Harmful by Chip Rosenthal. > > http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html And the rebuttle: http://www.metasystema.org/reply-to-useful.mhtml I personally like Reply-To: set to the mailing list. All the lists I'm on are set up that way and there have been no problems that I could see (yes, you see the occasional private message sent but it's not that big a problem). -spc (I get enough mail as it is ... I don't need duplicates 8-) From flo at rdel.co.uk Thu Feb 3 03:07:08 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list... Message-ID: <3899453C.1665E2F8@rdel.co.uk> Rats...just been caught by the new reply mechanism. Grrr "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > >And while we are on the topic of the list server, is it possible to have a > >common date stamp put on all messages that are sent out from the listserver? > >One of the major pains I have is when messages come in from different time > >zones, and this ^%$^&$ software (Netscape Mail) sorts the damn stuff by date > >without the option of not sorting. Among other reasons, a common date stamp > >makes it FAR easier to keep track of who might be responding to something > >first. > > Oh, now that would be SERIOUSLY COOL! I'm using Eudora and sort stuff by > date also. Drives me crazy when people have the clock on their computer > *seriously* off. > > Although, thankfully doesn't sound like I've as much trouble as Netscape > Mail causes. I'd be surprised if Eudora used a different method of determining the date and time for sorting purposes than Netscape does. Your message, for example, was apparently sent at 00:44:48 -0800, and displays on my screen as 08:44, because I'm on GMT (and using Netscape Messenger). So, we're both reliant on senders having their clocks and timezones set correctly. I'd object to some central server forging the best indication you've got of how far along a conversation had got at the time I replied. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Feb 3 03:33:01 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: DASTAR COM "Re: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING" (Feb 2, 23:56) References: Message-ID: <10002030933.ZM5236@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> First of all, "Thanks!" to Jay for getting the list going again. The withdrawal symptoms are beginning to wear off now :-) On Feb 2, 23:56, DASTAR COM wrote: > On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Jay West wrote: > > > I've always wondered why the list was set up the way it was. > Because: > > b) who the hell wants to have to read the same message TWICE? (once from > the list and once from the replier) Sellam has a point here; it is considered bad netiquette to do that, and that's why newsreaders, for example, won't get the GNSA if they allow a followup posting to also be emailed to the author automatically. However, this isn't usenet, and it's easy in most mailers to remove the extra address. I hope people do so, and I hope they'll also forgive me when I forget :-) > c) it's an incredible pain in the ass having to edit the reply-to > addresses for every damn message you reply to Virtually all mailers have a "reply all" function. I can think of just one exception, and that's a mailer intended as a local delivery agent, not a mail user agent. > Besides, despite what the aforementioned article says, the previous list > reply-to mechanism was working, and working well. The article is just a > masturbatory entreaty for one persons personal preferences, and does not > really take into account convenience for the overall list. No, it isn't. There are good reasons for the "Reply-to:" header to override the "From:" address, where the "From:" address is not valid or correct for incoming mail. That's more common than many people think. If you use "Reply-to:" for list redirection, that breaks, and irrevocably removes the correct address for replies to the author. Although old habits die hard, and it will take a little getting used to, I prefer the new method. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 3 03:56:55 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list... In-Reply-To: <3899453C.1665E2F8@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: >I'd be surprised if Eudora used a different method of determining the >date and time for sorting purposes than Netscape does. Your message, >for example, was apparently sent at 00:44:48 -0800, and displays on my >screen as 08:44, because I'm on GMT (and using Netscape Messenger). So, >we're both reliant on senders having their clocks and timezones set >correctly. > >I'd object to some central server forging the best indication you've got >of how far along a conversation had got at the time I replied. Hmmm, you raise a good point, the way it's set right now is a good indicator of how crazy other people are, and if we're likely to see a reply from them that day. For example, you're correct when you point out that I sent the last at 00:44:48 -0800, and this one is even worse :^) since it's now 1:54am here. It might be possible to stuff the original at the beginning of the message body. Still I guess it is best to leave the timestamps alone. OTOH, this reply-to bit is driving me crazy! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Feb 3 06:25:58 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: HP 98XX IFs & S100 Message-ID: Nice to have the list back. I have to use the reply to all and edit the individual out of the send to box but I don't mind. I know the list doesn't like ePay so I hope I don't start a flame war. I'm dumping S100 cards and HP 98XX interfaces there now. Not all the time do things bring high prices. I just sold a HP 9820 interface for under $10. Most of the interfaces and cards are running between $10 and $15 including an original Cromemco HD. This is much easier for me than having to haggle over prices. If you are interested my sellers name is 'innfosale'. Use ebay's seller search to find my items. Most are in vintage computer hardware with some in mainframes. There will be more in the future. I have been suffering withdrawals over not having the list also. Many thanks for the list and ALL who comment. Paxton Portland, OR, USA PS It is a lot of fun to be on late at night and see comments come in from around the world. From west at tseinc.com Thu Feb 3 06:23:31 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: reply address setting explanation Message-ID: <004801bf6e41$7cf93660$0101a8c0@jay> And - just so folks know... I didn't intentionally change the way the reply-to address works, even though I prefer the new method. When I set up the list I just installed a separate copy of majordomo "straight out of the box". We host all our customer lists with majordomo, primarily because majordomo is virtually the de-facto standard for internet mailing lists world-wide. Yes, there are other mailing list server packages, but none seem to have the installed base of majordomo. The default installation of majordomo does what - you guessed it - reply-to is NOT munged. Gee - I wonder why the author of majordomo did that. Hum... I installed the standard default configuration, did some testing, and started it back up. I'm so used to mailing lists having the reply-to set to the original poster it really didn't dawn on me that classiccmp was set differently although I knew that full well. The change was not intentional. After the first post or two I saw about this topic I was going to change it to work like the old list because obviously that's how it WAS set up. Then I saw the lively discussion and thought perhaps its better to have everyone get their opinions in and let any changes be determined without me. As you might infer from previous posts, I don't want to be making any changes on my own.... Regards, Jay West From west at tseinc.com Thu Feb 3 06:33:30 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: HOT TIP - System Available? Message-ID: <005e01bf6e42$e2153200$0101a8c0@jay> I was advised by a non-classiccmp'er yesterday that a PDP-11 type system in some kind of rack is being decomissioned and is available. Contact Wayne Nelson of SDPTV in Vermillion, South Dakota - quickly That's all the contact info I currently have. Regards, Jay West From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 3 07:32:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <38993736.7704CEDD@rain.org> Message-ID: Well from pine via telnet the current way means marvin just got two copies and I don't plan to edit the message as it too damm slow. The mailer at home seems to be an oddbal and has no reply to all and the from: address it will use is the first or last(have to look) in the header. In the end the most visible address is the one I'm likely to reply to by error. Oh, and I really hate getting things twice, NetBSD-Port-VAX is dont this way and I get anything I reply to and their replys at least twice. Another pet peeve, posts/replies in html, I don't read them and dump them sumarily as A) they are often spam, B)the are a pain to handle via said slow telnet and pine. Oh, I have no plans for IE or any other browser based mail and really don't want to use MS OS if I can avoid it. So that rather limits what some consider a decent mailer. Allison From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Feb 3 07:39:36 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200002030300.TAA24080@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000203082231.00b462c0@206.231.8.2> At 07:00 PM 2/2/00 -0800, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: >> I'm not saying any of this to say how it should be set up. That's not my >> call. I'm just saying what I've typically seen on other lists. If Derek >> wants it changed to the old method, he can do it or he can call me to do it. >> >> I personally prefer the new way, but my vote doesn't count! :) >> >> Jay West > >I personally vote for the old way! I'm on quite a few different ML's and >only the DECnet/Linux one does it this way. It's more of a pain to have to >get the correct TO: with it set this way that the old way! Especially if >I'm using 'elm', like right now, since I either have to forward it to the >ML, or remember to chage the TO: after I'm done typing the message. Zane and group, The URL posted by Philip (liste@artware.qc.ca) just previous to this msg ( FYI: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html and titled ' ''Reply-To'' Munging Considered Harmful' ) is clear on making it easy for you since you use Elm 2.5. Just hit "r" or "g" depending upon whether you intend the msg to be private or to the group. Many of us have been bit by sending an intended private reply to the whole list for example a monitary offer negotiating for something offered for sale, a flame stating 'Yer mamma wears army boots!', etc. This present classiccmp reply setting is Good IMHO. That munging article is a very good discussion on the subject even though the author has a rather strong opinion against the automatic "Reply all" list setting. I nevertheless follows my feeling on the matter. I use Eudora and had just hit the "Reply All" button to publicly reply to this msg as I do with several other lists I'm on. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 3 08:56:50 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <200002030902.EAA29776@armigeron.com>; from spc@armigeron.com on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:02:08AM -0500 References: <200002030902.EAA29776@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <20000203095650.B4057@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:02:08AM -0500, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner (spc@armigeron.com) wrote: > > I personally like Reply-To: set to the mailing list. All the lists I'm on > are set up that way and there have been no problems that I could see (yes, > you see the occasional private message sent but it's not that big a > problem). No problems? Here's one! A mailing list subscriber wants to receive mail at an address different from that in his From: header. (Let's say he's using Pine without ALLOW_CHANGING_FROM, or he's using some older MUA that doesn't even have the concept of changing the From: header). So, he sets the Reply-To: to the address at which he actually accepts mail; the From: isn't meaningful anymore. Then it goes to the list, which replaces that Reply-To: with one pointing at the list. Explain how someone wishing to reply to him can retrieve the correct address at this point. (Or, phrased differently, why the mailing list should change anything at *all* in the message being sent.) It's awfully curious that a list full o' geeks can't figure out how to reply to a message in their mail client. -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 3 08:59:53 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000203082231.00b462c0@206.231.8.2>; from cfandt@netsync.net on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 08:39:36AM -0500 References: <200002030300.TAA24080@shell1.aracnet.com> <4.1.20000203082231.00b462c0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <20000203095953.C4057@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 08:39:36AM -0500, Christian Fandt (cfandt@netsync.net) wrote: > [someone else wrote:] > >I personally vote for the old way! I'm on quite a few different ML's and > >only the DECnet/Linux one does it this way. It's more of a pain to have to > >get the correct TO: with it set this way that the old way! The "correct" headers are the ones which the sender of the message put on his message. > The URL posted by Philip (liste@artware.qc.ca) just previous to this msg ( > FYI: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html and titled ' > ''Reply-To'' Munging Considered Harmful' ) is clear on making it easy for > you since you use Elm 2.5. Just hit "r" or "g" depending upon whether you > intend the msg to be private or to the group. For those that have noticed a bit of a flaw in their mail program regarding this issue, I'll take a moment to point out that the MUA That Sucks Less, 'mutt', offers not only reply and group-reply but also list-reply. :-) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 3 09:02:28 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: ; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 12:38:59AM -0800 References: <014201bf6df1$afe91fe0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <20000203100228.D4057@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 12:38:59AM -0800, Zane H. Healy (healyzh@aracnet.com) wrote: > > Yes to everything! I just got home, and found that with the machine I use > at home that this is even more of a royal pain! It looks like Eudora Pro > doesn't have a group reply. I thought this was a pain in the neck with > 'elm', and yes, multiple people have pointed out "Group Reply", but I don't > consider sending the person who's message I'm replying to, two copies > acceptable behavior! I know *I* don't want two copies everytime someone > replies to something I wrote. Surely, being a collector of old computers, you're adept enough with them to delete an address before you send a message? (I fail to see what's difficult about this.) > Here is something else to consider, there have got to be list members that > have to pay *PER MINUTE* connection fees (remember those? *I* sure do). > You do a group reply to those folks, you're costing them money! So don't send two messages. This is a straw man, and you know it. I'm beginning to think that someone's replaced the subscription list of classiccmp with a bunch of lusers. Don't you people know how to use a mail client yet? -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Feb 3 09:14:07 2000 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... Message-ID: <8025687A.0053B54C.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> >> >> The best text on the subject i've seen is ``Reply-To'' Munging Considered >> Harmful by Chip Rosenthal. >> >> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html > > And the rebuttle: http://www.metasystema.org/reply-to-useful.mhtml > > I personally like Reply-To: set to the mailing list. All the lists I'm on > are set up that way and there have been no problems that I could see (yes, > you see the occasional private message sent but it's not that big a > problem). Hello again everyone! Good to be back! I have read both the above web articles. I'd like to cast my vote in favour of REPLY-TO: == THE LIST Why? 1. I don't want to receive two messages when someone replies to me and the list 2. With the old system, if someone forgot to change the header, there was a spurious message, which I deleted. Some people might object to the waste of bandwidth, but it merely gave me one extra message to delete. With the new system, if someone forgets to change the header, the information doesn't reach the list. This causes a bigger waste of bandwidth, because you get more people answering the same question, not having seen each other's replies. And it stifles discussion, because replies-to-replies often never get generated (and these are sometimes the most useful). So the new method gives less info to the list for more use of bandwidth. IMHO, not good. I am on several lists, of which about half work the old way (reply to the list by default). This is very convenient on all of them. Of the others, on the one where I have asked questions I have received substantially the same reply privately from several people, but the discussion hasn't borne fruit on the list. Just my two penn'orth... Philip. PS I almost forgot to edit the addressees of this one... ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Feb 3 09:59:12 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3898FC06.BEDD05E2@halcyon.com> Message-ID: My mailer doesn't "click"... On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, David C. Jenner wrote: > I vote for the new way. It's now trivial to > reply either to the sender alone, the sender > and the list, or the list alone. > > With a decent mailer each of these options is > now one click. > > Vastly superior. > > Dave > > healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > > > > I'm not saying any of this to say how it should be set up. That's not my > > > call. I'm just saying what I've typically seen on other lists. If Derek > > > wants it changed to the old method, he can do it or he can call me to do it. > > > > > > I personally prefer the new way, but my vote doesn't count! :) > > > > > > Jay West > > > > I personally vote for the old way! I'm on quite a few different ML's and > > only the DECnet/Linux one does it this way. It's more of a pain to have to > > get the correct TO: with it set this way that the old way! Especially if > > I'm using 'elm', like right now, since I either have to forward it to the > > ML, or remember to chage the TO: after I'm done typing the message. > > > > Zane > From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Feb 3 10:10:14 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap Message-ID: Hmmmm... seems to me, running Pine as I do, that the "reply to" issue, in my particular case, breaks down to laziness on my part: Two keystrokes to set up a reply vs. replacing the Original Sender's name with the list name. And I'm sure I could automate it but... why? If I had my druthers, I'd vote for the "old" way, however it's almost a non-issue with me, and it even provides for a little 'breathing room' right before I blast off a piquant reply that, in the fulness of time, may or may not have been a little rash. NOW, FURTHERMORE: In all this discussion of the New Classiccmp regime... I would like to weigh in with Allison on the issue of HTML and Binary attachments propagated to this List. I belong to 6 other lists besides this one, and four have some kind of HTML filtering and binaries-rejectors. I dislike, and delete unread, HTML stuff, because this is an ASCII list and I engage it with an ASCII mailreader. Yes, I have PPP accounts and Netscrape and all the rest, but my central (and voluminous) corespondence is carried on Pine under a Unix shell account, and I ain't changin' it. [I offer Kevin Murrel's post above as a non-rancorous example] IMHO, it does little or no good to try and 'police' the issue case-by-case, due to the influx of new members and existing members forgetting or not caring. Most folk here are pretty sensitive to this, I have found, once made aware that HTML is displayed in it's raw state for many of Us. And I think it's much prettier cooked. It does seem to be a losing battle in the long run. If this instance of majordomo has such filters, I, for one, would like to see them energized.... Cheers John From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Feb 3 10:04:20 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3898FC06.BEDD05E2@halcyon.com> References: <200002030300.TAA24080@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: At 19:54 -0800 2/2/00, David C. Jenner wrote: >I vote for the new way. Me too. - Mark From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Feb 3 10:31:32 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: No I'm not going to retype the subject Message-ID: <200002031631.LAA09423@dbit.dbit.com> >From: allisonp@world.std.com >Another pet peeve, posts/replies in html, I don't read them and dump them >sumarily as A) they are often spam, B)the are a pain to handle via said >slow telnet and pine. I have the same attitude, WHY do people think we would even want to see a fancy schmancy version of what they typed as simple ASCII text, especially when many of us read this list on simple ASCII terminals anyway so we can't see any of the colors or misaligned columns. It's especially annoying when a message contains the same text twice, once as text and once as HTML, so at least half of the message is useless to *everyone*. I would *love* it if list servers could be set up to filter this crap out, or at the very least run the HTML text through Lynx or something and translate it back to usable 80-column ASCII. FWIW I'm not crazy about the new header format, when I replied to this msg with "R" (I'm using Berkeley Mail) it would have gone to Allison only, and when I changed to "r", the mailing list was only there as a Cc:, if I had edited out the other recipients there would have been *no* primary recipient, only a Cc:. And that's certainly not what we want! This problem comes up on every mailing list, maybe it would make sense to define an X-Foo: header that gives the mailing list address and hack the popular mailers to have a "reply to mailing list" command? Or has this already been done and I'm just oblivious as usual? Of course this wouldn't help Windows users running canned mailers with no source code available, but what can I say, shame on you!!! :-) John Wilson D Bit From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 3 10:38:23 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: <20000203100228.D4057@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: > I'm beginning to think that someone's replaced the subscription list > of classiccmp with a bunch of lusers. Don't you people know how to use > a mail client yet? > > -Rich That is rude and foolish. It's damm annoying to have to tell pine which to send to as it take this config and puts classiccmp as the CC: and the poster as the TO:. On a telnet link that trivial edit is really slow. I do know how to run a mail client and I happen to run some odd ones for my reasons. Pine can sort out the mess some but I access my ISP via a telnet connection from the work isp. So happens the work ISP is really poor and while I have a reliable 21.6k connection if I back up to edit the screen updates seem to suddenly take MINUTES, no exaduration. To back the cursor up it literally worse than editing on an old asr33!. If you know how to speed that up I'm all ears. Oh, I have to use telnet as MY ISP is in a different state and the only local access that would not use telnet is 25miles away as a long distance call. Now at home I run under W3.1 and use a nonwinsock based mailer (RFDmail) as its fast and worked with the unix shell account I have. It happens to not have group reply or the ability to sort out multiple from fields. Ok, you call that broken but it does move a meg of mail faster than Eudora or (gagme) netscape-mail and it's kin. I dont have to wait for trumpet winsock to wind up first either. The payback, ALL emailable viruses/trojans/worms are ineffective and can be safely recieved! Allison From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu Feb 3 10:42:01 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: References: <3898FC06.BEDD05E2@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <200002031646.KAA12838@trailingedge.com> I prefer the old way, this new way is playing havoc with the filter functions on my mailer since the headers are never the same. 99% of the time I want to reply to the whole list and now it's more work to do that. On 3 Feb 00, at 7:59, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > My mailer doesn't "click"... > > On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, David C. Jenner wrote: > > > I vote for the new way. It's now trivial to > > reply either to the sender alone, the sender > > and the list, or the list alone. > > > > With a decent mailer each of these options is > > now one click. > > > > Vastly superior. > > > > Dave > > > > healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > > > > > > I'm not saying any of this to say how it should be set up. That's not my > > > > call. I'm just saying what I've typically seen on other lists. If Derek > > > > wants it changed to the old method, he can do it or he can call me to do it. > > > > > > > > I personally prefer the new way, but my vote doesn't count! :) > > > > > > > > Jay West > > > > > > I personally vote for the old way! I'm on quite a few different ML's and > > > only the DECnet/Linux one does it this way. It's more of a pain to have to > > > get the correct TO: with it set this way that the old way! Especially if > > > I'm using 'elm', like right now, since I either have to forward it to the > > > ML, or remember to chage the TO: after I'm done typing the message. > > > > > > Zane > > > ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 3 10:45:38 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, John Lawson wrote: > Hmmmm... seems to me, running Pine as I do, that the "reply to" > issue, in my particular case, breaks down to laziness on my part: > Two keystrokes to set up a reply vs. replacing the Original Sender's > name with the list name. And I'm sure I could automate it but... why? This is somewhat of an issue for me. First when I reply pine asks if I want the orginal text, then it asks reply to ALL senders. that last question has a yes or no and if no only John gets this and if yes it's a duplicate as John is the TO: and Classiccmp is the CC: Sure I can edit it but this took over 7 minutes due to the loop echo time from the My ISP vis the pokey local ISP. From home this is less an issue. but then I'm only awake there for about 5 hours compared to the 9 here! Allison From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 11:46:48 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000203082231.00b462c0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Christian Fandt wrote: > I use Eudora and had just hit the "Reply All" button to publicly reply to > this msg as I do with several other lists I'm on. But Christian, your message went out twice: once to the list and once agan to poor Zane. Now my reply message is going out THRICE: once to the list, once again to poor Zane, and yet another time to poor you. Pretty soon, if people don't pay attention, 50 copies of the same message will go out rather than just the one that should go to the list. The intent of a mailing list is to be able to send one message to one address and have it disperse from there. This new reply-to mechanism defeats that purpose. Anyway, I wouldn't really care if I could figure out how to set the list back to postpone mode so I don't have to be getting any of these messages. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From spc at armigeron.com Thu Feb 3 10:55:26 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <20000203095650.B4057@alcor.concordia.ca> from "Rich Lafferty" at Feb 03, 2000 09:56:50 AM Message-ID: <200002031655.LAA06708@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Rich Lafferty once stated: > > A mailing list subscriber wants to receive mail at an address different > from that in his From: header. (Let's say he's using Pine without > ALLOW_CHANGING_FROM, or he's using some older MUA that doesn't even > have the concept of changing the From: header). So, he sets the > Reply-To: to the address at which he actually accepts mail; the From: > isn't meaningful anymore. > > Then it goes to the list, which replaces that Reply-To: with one > pointing at the list. > > Explain how someone wishing to reply to him can retrieve the correct > address at this point. (Or, phrased differently, why the mailing list > should change anything at *all* in the message being sent.) Because in this case, it's the Right Thing (TM). Honestly, just how often is your case even relevant? I subscribe from an account I can't read mail from so I want replies sent somewhere else? From (and sorry about the URL) http://www.unicom.com/BBS/bbs_forum.cgi?forum=replyto&read=000038-000000.msg&session=3899a9c653b6a5e4&use_last_read=on&last_read=0 1: The person must be sending from an account that s/eh cannot recieve mail from. While this may have been true in the past, in most cases people are reading/sending mail from the account they want the mail go to. In the 7 years I've been using email and the 2 years of working at an ISP I have only seen the reply-to used twice. Both times it was because a person was switching to a new account and wanted an effective way to get people in the habit of sending to the new address. In such cases the mailing lists are usually the first to move to the new address. Aside from a 1-2 day overlap, there really is no danger of missing any mail. And then there's http://www.unicom.com/BBS/bbs_forum.cgi?forum=replyto&read=000058-000000.msg&session=3899a8e8523e3f27&use_last_read=on&last_read=0 I found your site because someone posted the URL on the video4linux list, I by myself run a large site with 70 mailing-lists with over 15'000 subscribers. To be blunt, I think your page is useless with the exception to give you feedback from the "real" world. I wrote my list-software using procmail and perl-scripts to handle bounces, archiving and email-header settings, I provide the functionality, and list-operators who run the lists can decide whether they want reply-to set to the list or the sender ... by default it's back to the sender ... and 95% of all lists the *users* request me to set reply-to the list, because sender are flooded with replies which are meant for the list, and they end up forwarding them all. As comparison, we have 3'000 incomings email per day, and running them for four years I had to remove 4 emails from the archives because people accidently assumed the reply would go to the sender and not list itself. But not content with that, I decided to ACTUALLY READ RFC-822 and see what it says about this whole mess: 4.4.3. REPLY-TO / RESENT-REPLY-TO This field provides a general mechanism for indicating any mailbox(es) to which responses are to be sent. Three typical uses for this feature can be distinguished. In the first case, the author(s) may not have regular machine-based mail- boxes and therefore wish(es) to indicate an alternate machine address. In the second case, an author may wish additional persons to be made aware of, or responsible for, replies. A >>> somewhat different use may be of some help to "text message >>> teleconferencing" groups equipped with automatic distribution >>> services: include the address of that service in the "Reply- >>> To" field of all messages submitted to the teleconference; >>> then participants can "reply" to conference submissions to >>> guarantee the correct distribution of any submission of their >>> own. (emphasis mine). And that, I think ends this discussion. > It's awfully curious that a list full o' geeks can't figure out how to > reply to a message in their mail client. -spc (I can't figure out why anyone hasn't read the RFC until now ... 8-) From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 11:50:44 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <20000203095650.B4057@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Rich Lafferty wrote: > A mailing list subscriber wants to receive mail at an address different > from that in his From: header. (Let's say he's using Pine without > ALLOW_CHANGING_FROM, or he's using some older MUA that doesn't even > have the concept of changing the From: header). So, he sets the > Reply-To: to the address at which he actually accepts mail; the From: > isn't meaningful anymore. > > Then it goes to the list, which replaces that Reply-To: with one > pointing at the list. > > Explain how someone wishing to reply to him can retrieve the correct > address at this point. (Or, phrased differently, why the mailing list > should change anything at *all* in the message being sent.) Well, hmmm. Since you are obviously are subscribed to the list, and you obviously read the messages coming from the list, then that implies that replies going back to the mailbox from which you read the list will in fact reach you. So I guess what I'm saying is I don't understand your scenario. A little more specifics might help. > It's awfully curious that a list full o' geeks can't figure out how to > reply to a message in their mail client. Change always pisses people off (especially when it wasn't particularly broken in the first place). Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 11:52:32 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: <20000203100228.D4057@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Rich Lafferty wrote: > So don't send two messages. This is a straw man, and you know it. > > I'm beginning to think that someone's replaced the subscription list > of classiccmp with a bunch of lusers. Don't you people know how to use > a mail client yet? Rich, this is hardly constructive. So because you got a wild hair up your arse and decided to get nasty, I replied to you seven additional times with this message, including the one going out to the list. Enjoy! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 3 11:59:33 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <8025687A.0053B54C.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <200002031700.SAA22100@mail2.siemens.de> Well, Phillip already said most of the relevant Mail. So here's my ME-TOO-NOT-LIKE-THE-NEW mail: > >> The best text on the subject i've seen is ``Reply-To'' Munging Considered > >> Harmful by Chip Rosenthal. > >> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html > > And the rebuttle: http://www.metasystema.org/reply-to-useful.mhtml > > I personally like Reply-To: set to the mailing list. All the lists I'm on > > are set up that way and there have been no problems that I could see (yes, > > you see the occasional private message sent but it's not that big a > > problem). > Hello again everyone! Good to be back! Same here :) I already got a nervous breakdown, seeing that while I have been 5 days over the ocean just 27 'new' messages arrived ! > I have read both the above web articles. I'd like to cast my vote in favour of > REPLY-TO: == THE LIST > 1. I don't want to receive two messages when someone replies to me and the list > 2. With the old system, if someone forgot to change the header, there was a > spurious message, which I deleted. Some people might object to the waste of > bandwidth, but it merely gave me one extra message to delete. > With the new system, if someone forgets to change the header, the information > doesn't reach the list. This causes a bigger waste of bandwidth, because you > get more people answering the same question, not having seen each other's > replies. And it stifles discussion, because replies-to-replies often never get > generated (and these are sometimes the most useful). I just answered to Philips Mail, and only becaus I checked to be shure I recogniced that the list wasn't at all in the TO or CC headers ! > So the new method gives less info to the list for more use of bandwidth. IMHO, > not good. Like resending mails > I am on several lists, of which about half work the old way (reply to the list > by default). This is very convenient on all of them. Of the others, on the one > where I have asked questions I have received substantially the same reply > privately from several people, but the discussion hasn't borne fruit on the > list. Also my mailer (Pegasus/Win) just offers the ordinary 'reply' button. No selectable stuff, so I have to edit. End if you take a look at Ethans Mail: he is using some Web service, sending out dual mails .. And I REALY hate duplicate mails ... especialy when produced due uncommon machine features. As with all machine made decision you have a variety between right and wrong, and Reply-To enshures that the percentage of unwanted messages is way lower than the 'new' way. Last but not least, it's the RFC 822 way - and standards are the only real chance to go along. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 3 11:01:45 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... References: <200002030902.EAA29776@armigeron.com> <20000203095650.B4057@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <3899B479.90FEDFA8@rain.org> Rich Lafferty wrote: > > A mailing list subscriber wants to receive mail at an address different > from that in his From: header. (Let's say he's using Pine without > ALLOW_CHANGING_FROM, or he's using some older MUA that doesn't even > have the concept of changing the From: header). So, he sets the > Reply-To: to the address at which he actually accepts mail; the From: > isn't meaningful anymore. > > Then it goes to the list, which replaces that Reply-To: with one > pointing at the list. > > Explain how someone wishing to reply to him can retrieve the correct > address at this point. (Or, phrased differently, why the mailing list > should change anything at *all* in the message being sent.) > > It's awfully curious that a list full o' geeks can't figure out how to > reply to a message in their mail client. It ain't a matter of figuring it out, it is a matter of efficiency. Damn headers, like replying to you with the Reply button now and seeing the list isn't included, and I have to manually delete the 2nd spam to you. My feeling is that I won't tolerate this much longer and will most likely unsubscribe. While a valuable resource, it ain't worth the aggrevation of the way the headers are currently set up. FWIW, I copied this msg, deleted the original response, did a Reply All, deleted your email address, pasted back my original response, and am now continuing. I dislike things that steal my time and that is what these damn headers are doing now. If the list was primarily private responses, I could be talked into leaving it as it is ... but it is not. From at258 at osfn.org Thu Feb 3 11:03:11 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: No I'm not going to retype the subject In-Reply-To: <200002031631.LAA09423@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: I really hate that HTML mail crap, too, and usually just delete it. I have little enough time, anyway, I don't want to waste it it in HTML unless I'm writing it. On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, John Wilson wrote: > >From: allisonp@world.std.com > > >Another pet peeve, posts/replies in html, I don't read them and dump them > >sumarily as A) they are often spam, B)the are a pain to handle via said > >slow telnet and pine. > > I have the same attitude, WHY do people think we would even want to see a > fancy schmancy version of what they typed as simple ASCII text, especially > when many of us read this list on simple ASCII terminals anyway so we can't > see any of the colors or misaligned columns. It's especially annoying when > a message contains the same text twice, once as text and once as HTML, so > at least half of the message is useless to *everyone*. I would *love* it if > list servers could be set up to filter this crap out, or at the very least > run the HTML text through Lynx or something and translate it back to usable > 80-column ASCII. > > FWIW I'm not crazy about the new header format, when I replied to this msg > with "R" (I'm using Berkeley Mail) it would have gone to Allison only, and > when I changed to "r", the mailing list was only there as a Cc:, if I had > edited out the other recipients there would have been *no* primary recipient, > only a Cc:. And that's certainly not what we want! > > This problem comes up on every mailing list, maybe it would make sense to > define an X-Foo: header that gives the mailing list address and hack the > popular mailers to have a "reply to mailing list" command? Or has this > already been done and I'm just oblivious as usual? Of course this wouldn't > help Windows users running canned mailers with no source code available, > but what can I say, shame on you!!! :-) > > John Wilson > D Bit > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 3 11:03:26 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING References: <014201bf6df1$afe91fe0$0101a8c0@jay> <20000203100228.D4057@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <3899B4DE.8A001911@rain.org> Rich Lafferty wrote: > > I'm beginning to think that someone's replaced the subscription list > of classiccmp with a bunch of lusers. Don't you people know how to use > a mail client yet? Arrogance will get you flamed nicely. Is that what you are wanting to start? From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 3 11:05:00 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <200002031700.SAA22100@mail2.siemens.de>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 06:00:33PM +0000 References: <8025687A.0053B54C.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> <200002031700.SAA22100@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <20000203120500.O6677@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 06:00:33PM +0000, Hans Franke (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) wrote: > > Last but not least, it's the RFC 822 way - and standards are the > only real chance to go along. I'm not sure what you mean, here. RFC 822 specifies that the Reply-To: is to be set by the originator, but the rest of your post seems to suggest that majordomo should change it. Could you clarify? -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 12:09:06 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <8025687A.0053B54C.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: Prelude to this reply: Cursor Up Cursor Up Cursor Up Cursor Up Cursor Up Cut Line Cursor Down Cut Line Cursor Down Uncut Line Cursor Down Cursor Down Cursor Down Cursor Down > 2. With the old system, if someone forgot to change the header, there was a > spurious message, which I deleted. Some people might object to the waste of > bandwidth, but it merely gave me one extra message to delete. > > With the new system, if someone forgets to change the header, the > information doesn't reach the list. This causes a bigger waste of > bandwidth, because you get more people answering the same question, > not having seen each other's replies. And it stifles discussion, > because replies-to-replies often never get generated (and these are > sometimes the most useful). Exactly! And I guarantee you that if the list stays the way it is there will be so many duplicate messages flying about that those of us against the current system will be getting huffy all the time, constantly bitching to the list about it, which will result in more flame wars than were ever sparked by my bad attitude. And to reiterate, I think the most important point is that THE DISCUSSION WILL INEVITABLY SPLINTER OFF INTO PRIVATE DISCUSSIONS AND THIS DOES NOT BENEFIT THE LIST WHATSOEVER, not to mention future generations who will quite possibly miss a LOT of great information that could have been archived from public messages but instead was lost to time since the replies were private. This list is archived in at least two places that I know of: Classic Computers Mailing List Archives http://www.heydon.org/kevan/mlists/classiccmp/ (currently down according to Kevan's previous message) Classic Computers Mailing List Searchable Archives http://mail-index.nice.ru/classiccmp/wgindex.html This is an EXTRAORDINARILY valuable resource that will be diminished if many excellent replies to many good questions are administered in private discussions. Humankind does not gain by having to ask the same questions over and over again, only to have to repeat the work that someone already did to answer the question. > I am on several lists, of which about half work the old way (reply to > the list by default). This is very convenient on all of them. Of the > others, on the one where I have asked questions I have received > substantially the same reply privately from several people, but the > discussion hasn't borne fruit on the list. In other words, that information is effectively lost to time. That's shameful, considering our collective mission is to preserve information. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 3 11:12:41 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: NO HTML! was Re: No I'm not going to retype the subject References: Message-ID: <3899B709.7F682568@rain.org> "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > > I really hate that HTML mail crap, too, and usually just delete it. I > have little enough time, anyway, I don't want to waste it it in HTML > unless I'm writing it. I also really dislike the HTML and it only seems like a way for some people to display cutsie messages. It gets in my reader okay, but is not nearly as easy to read as the ascii text most people send to the list. From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 3 11:22:34 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list... References: <3899453C.1665E2F8@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: <3899B95A.F05BA4FA@rain.org> Paul Williams wrote: > > > >And while we are on the topic of the list server, is it possible to have a > > >common date stamp put on all messages that are sent out from the listserver? > > >One of the major pains I have is when messages come in from different time > > >zones, and this ^%$^&$ software (Netscape Mail) sorts the damn stuff by date > > >without the option of not sorting. Among other reasons, a common date stamp > > >makes it FAR easier to keep track of who might be responding to something > > >first. > > > I'd object to some central server forging the best indication you've got > of how far along a conversation had got at the time I replied. I tolerate, but do not even slightly like, the fact that the dates that come in are dependent on the senders time/date stamp. Putting a realistic time stamp on a message is certainly not forging anything. Currently, messages come in all over the place (with regard to time/date order). Is this good? I think not! From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 3 12:23:36 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <20000203120500.O6677@alcor.concordia.ca> References: <200002031700.SAA22100@mail2.siemens.de>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 06:00:33PM +0000 Message-ID: <200002031724.SAA29602@mail2.siemens.de> (I just had to retype the mail, since my mailer did only reply to Rich) > On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 06:00:33PM +0000, Hans Franke (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) wrote: > > Last but not least, it's the RFC 822 way - and standards are the > > only real chance to go along. > I'm not sure what you mean, here. RFC 822 specifies that the Reply-To: > is to be set by the originator, but the rest of your post seems to > suggest that majordomo should change it. Could you clarify? As spc already cited (sp?) RFC 822 4.4.3 (paralell while I answered), he missed out the 'Note' you're going on. Just to put up the question who is the originator. Well, the originator is maybe the person who did send the mail ... or is it Majordomo ? Since Majordomo is not only a forwarding thing, but rather processing the mail and generating a new one. Anyway, I think this is advocates talk. Even if I'd agree to set the prior sender to be the originator (*1), The forwarding/list service should provide the service of setting reply-to as a courtsy to all te other users - if the 'originator' forgot to do so. Just as an usage of the Best-Possible-Result rule. Gruss H. *1 - just to come up with the question if, in this case, if the first sender is the originator, then, why are there different originators for all follow up replys ? They are just 'some black boxes' processing the information and generating new mails :)) -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 12:25:45 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: VCF Europe Announcement Message-ID: Ok, Hans Franke informs me that VCF Europe in Munich, Germany, is set for April 29th and 30th! More details to follow as I get them. The VCF website will be updated as time permits. A VCF Los Angeles is being considered, as well as a VCF East. And as always, VCF 4.0 will be held somewhere in the Silicon Valley sometime in the Fall. VCF: Coming to a town near you! It's like the circus, but better (we don't have any stupid clowns). Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Feb 3 11:34:03 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Feb 03, 2000 08:10:14 AM Message-ID: <200002031734.KAA04429@calico.litterbox.com> I tend to agree. Also the purist in me insists that email is a *text* protocol, not an HTML one. And I too dump every HTML message I get because ELM doesn't handle them, it just spews them out raw. Elm users, if you get annoyed by getting two copies every time someone does a group reply, I think you could set a filter up that searches for your address in "To" AND the list's address in the "cc" header and redirects those messages to /dev/null. I haven't tried this, nor have I given the headers of a list reply to a message of mine close scrutiny so I might be wrong. > Hmmmm... seems to me, running Pine as I do, that the "reply to" > issue, in my particular case, breaks down to laziness on my part: > Two keystrokes to set up a reply vs. replacing the Original Sender's > name with the list name. And I'm sure I could automate it but... why? > > If I had my druthers, I'd vote for the "old" way, however it's > almost a non-issue with me, and it even provides for a little > 'breathing room' right before I blast off a piquant reply that, in > the fulness of time, may or may not have been a little rash. > > NOW, FURTHERMORE: > > In all this discussion of the New Classiccmp regime... I would > like to weigh in with Allison on the issue of HTML and Binary > attachments propagated to this List. > > I belong to 6 other lists besides this one, and four have some kind > of HTML filtering and binaries-rejectors. I dislike, and delete > unread, HTML stuff, because this is an ASCII list and I engage it > with an ASCII mailreader. Yes, I have PPP accounts and Netscrape and > all the rest, but my central (and voluminous) corespondence is > carried on Pine under a Unix shell account, and I ain't changin' it. > > [I offer Kevin Murrel's post above as a non-rancorous example] > > IMHO, it does little or no good to try and 'police' the issue > case-by-case, due to the influx of new members and existing members > forgetting or not caring. Most folk here are pretty sensitive to > this, I have found, once made aware that HTML is displayed in it's > raw state for many of Us. And I think it's much prettier cooked. It > does seem to be a losing battle in the long run. > > If this instance of majordomo has such filters, I, for one, would > like to see them energized.... > > > Cheers > > John > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 3 11:44:42 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:34 2005 Subject: Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap In-Reply-To: <200002031734.KAA04429@calico.litterbox.com>; from jim@calico.litterbox.com on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 10:34:03AM -0700 References: <200002031734.KAA04429@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <20000203124442.S6677@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 10:34:03AM -0700, Jim Strickland (jim@calico.litterbox.com) wrote: > > Elm users, if you get annoyed by getting two copies every time someone does > a group reply, I think you could set a filter up that searches for your > address in "To" AND the list's address in the "cc" header and redirects those > messages to /dev/null. If you're using procmail instead of filter, there's a procmail recipe to get rid of duplicates in the procmailex(5) manual page, which works quite reliably. (Sorry, Sellam/Dastar.) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Feb 3 12:09:59 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: HOT TIP - System Available? Message-ID: <200002031809.MAA04232@falcon.inetnebr.com> Tracked it down; Wayne is no longer with them. They are going to double-check, but it sounds like I may be driving up there to get it this weekend.. ;-) Thanks! (On a sad note, the engineer said they "threw away an Altair" before he found out about it. I was ready to go excavate in the dump, but he said that was like 10 years ago. *sigh) >I was advised by a non-classiccmp'er yesterday that a PDP-11 type system in >some kind of rack is being decomissioned and is available. > >Contact Wayne Nelson of SDPTV in Vermillion, South Dakota - quickly > >That's all the contact info I currently have. > >Regards, > >Jay West > > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 3 12:27:42 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <200002031724.SAA29602@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: NOBODY had any serious difficulty using the old system. SOME people have some difficulty with the new system. SOME people find the old system to be more convenient. SOME people find the new system to be more convenient. But that is NOT due to any intrinsic advantage, it is due to being a better fit with THEIR mail programs. Over the years, I have gotten a LOT of flack for using "obsolete" computers. Even on this list! Over the years, I have gotten a LOT of flack for using "obsolete" software. Even on this list! Now, the folk who only use NEW programs have instituted a change that provides a trivially greater level of conveneince for them, at the cost of a mild level of inconvenience for those of us using OLD systems. On MOST lists, the answer is obvious: dump those who use OLD stuff. Is that the answer here, also? I will put up with the inconvenience because of the great people and discussions here. Even those of you who are COMPLETELY WRONG on this issue :-) For SEVERAL reasons, my access here is through telnet and PINE on the ISP. That doesn't give me much opportunity to rewrite, debug, or alter features or characteristics of the mail program. I'm stuck with whatever version of PINE the ISP is currently using. I have a completely separate set of access for web browsing. Some people say, "I'm on thousands of mailing lists, and they ALL use the OLD way." Some people say, "I'm on thousands of mailing lists, and they ALL use the NEW way." There must be a LOT of mailing lists to have so little overlap :-) One of the issues is consequence of error. Under OLD system, occasionally a message that was intended to be private went public. Under the NEW system, a large number of messages that were intended to be public will go private, and MANY (maybe MOST) messages will have DUPLICATES. Each person has their own opinion of the cost/benefit analysis of THAT issue. But none of that is the real problem. There simply needs to be a simple and easy choice between REPLY TO AUTHOR v REPLY TO LIST. On old PINE, that is what you have (a Y/N for using REPLY TO: v FROM:). On the NEW software, instead, the choices appear to be REPLY TO AUTHOR v REPLY TO BOTH AUTHOR AND LIST. Perhaps some rethinking is needed in the "NEW" mail programs?????? I, too, HATE html-mail! But the version of PINE that I'm using on THIS ISP handles it well! (Although in the same "upgrade", they completely and totally BROKE LYNX :-( ) But I want to thank MOST folk for becoming conscious of the fact that NOT every mail program is internally linked to a browser. THANK YOU for providing a one sentence explanation of any URLs that you post (rather than the old "Check out: http://www.obscure.nul") -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 3 12:36:21 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap In-Reply-To: <200002031734.KAA04429@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Jim Strickland wrote: > Elm users, if you get annoyed by getting two copies every time someone does > a group reply, I think you could set a filter up that searches for your > address in "To" AND the list's address in the "cc" header and redirects those > messages to /dev/null. I haven't tried this, nor have I given the headers of > a list reply to a message of mine close scrutiny so I might be wrong. On one list that I am on, the TO: and CC: portions of the header are unmunged. The only way to differentiate the list v author replies is by examining the routing in the headers, or by the extraneous advertising that the list's host appends to every message (which thus makes it possible to differentiate by length). On at least THAT list, the filter you describe would simply delete ALL copies of REPLIES, which might be a little anti-social :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From kla at helios.augustana.edu Thu Feb 3 12:44:02 2000 From: kla at helios.augustana.edu (Kevin L. Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: HTML and RTF mail -- Not entirely user control Message-ID: I, too, dislike HTML and RTF mail. I usually read all of my e-mail lists in digest form (which I am waiting to have activated for this list...), which means HTML letters cannot easily be deleted (a small price to pay). Most lists I am on filter those out at the server end. At the same time, any time you get a new user, you usually have to be patient and tell them how to turn off that feature if they are Netscape or IE user. But that isn't the only issue.... More serious, however, is that user may not be in full control over the turning off of that feature. The ISP and/or the organzation you work for may have control over the form that mail goes out onto the Internet. A good instance is the college I work for, and others that depend upon Microsoft Exchange Servers (regardless of the client end). Normally in X.400 protocol, when mail does go out the SMTP pipeline (such as to this list) the mail still goes out in HTML. My computer center apparently doesn't know how to turn that off (or will not do it), although I've asked them many times. They, like Microsoft, are counting on the users at the other end being individuals using either a browser interface or an Exchange-compatible client, both which will know how to deal with non-text files. So it becomes an institutional problem, out of control of the user. I get around it because I also have access to a Unix box, which is what I use for all e-mail list interactions. Expect this type of problem to happen more and more into the future as more users come online with non-Text based e-mail clients. Me and you folks will be unfortunately the exception. As a sidebar, I can take the "reply to" feature either way -- as a digest user for all my e-mail lists, I always have to cut-and- paste my address and subject lines (or retype them), as a reply would go only to the list (and never to the user), plus the subject line would be all wrong (Re: Digest 1002...; not to forget that I will have Mbytes of reply text to edit each time) My recommendation would be to follow whatever the current RFC standard is -- after all, the Internet functions only because people have adopted protocols. My two cents worth... Regards, Kevin Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent the administration of Augustana College. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 3 12:24:53 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <200002031646.KAA12838@trailingedge.com> (dlw@trailingedge.com) References: <3898FC06.BEDD05E2@halcyon.com> <200002031646.KAA12838@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <20000203182453.4365.qmail@brouhaha.com> "David Williams" wrote: > I prefer the old way, this new way is playing havoc with the filter > functions on my mailer since the headers are never the same. > 99% of the time I want to reply to the whole list and now it's more > work to do that. Strange! My filters (on the "Sender:" header) are working great. The header seems to always be Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org If you filter won't work on "Sender:", it looks like there's always a "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" in either the "To:" or "CC:" headers; my software can filter on those as well, but I suppose YMMV. From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 3 13:06:49 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: Simon Plans Message-ID: <3899D1C9.1920E861@rain.org> I received a number of private emails regarding the plans for the Simon relay computer, and I have sent out a couple of CDs with the scans of the article. Thanks to those of you who had suggestions for shringing down the file size. The total size runs about 270Mb on the TIFF scans sent out on CD (tranlates to about 8 MB per page.) I don't have software tools to try out some of the compression schemes so I will leave them as is for now. At this point, I am slowly looking for and acquiring the parts to build the thing. It looks like it would be a real trip to build and operate a computer capable of handling a 5 bit number :). From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 3 12:30:57 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list... In-Reply-To: <3899B95A.F05BA4FA@rain.org> (message from Marvin on Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:22:34 -0800) References: <3899453C.1665E2F8@rdel.co.uk> <3899B95A.F05BA4FA@rain.org> Message-ID: <20000203183057.4415.qmail@brouhaha.com> Marvin writes: > I tolerate, but do not even slightly like, the fact that the dates that come > in are dependent on the senders time/date stamp. Putting a realistic time > stamp on a message is certainly not forging anything. Currently, messages > come in all over the place (with regard to time/date order). Is this good? I > think not! It's the principle of least munging of headers again; it's considered bad form to modify the Date: header supplied by the sender. If possible, set your software to display and sort on the timestamp in the received header as seen here (from your posting): Received: (from majordom@localhost) by opal.tseinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA30204 for classiccmp-classiccmp-org-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:23:20 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org) It's a bit tricky since there's more than one Received: header, but if you use the one that says "for classiccmp-classiccmp-org-outgoing", that's the most likely to get you accurate ordering (since everyone else's clocks don't necessarily match) and a consistent time zone. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 3 13:14:08 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: References: <8025687A.0053B54C.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000203131408.00c8f210@pc> At 10:09 AM 2/3/00 -0800, DASTAR COM wrote: > >In other words, that information is effectively lost to time. That's >shameful, considering our collective mission is to preserve information. Why hasn't anyone else piped up about the usefulness and reliability of using punched cards and paper tape to archive the mailing list as well as compose replies? My mail header may claim to say I use Eudora, but I actually use an ASR-33, sending tapes to my ISP for delivery. - John From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 3 12:37:24 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: (cisin@xenosoft.com) References: Message-ID: <20000203183724.4467.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > NOBODY had any serious difficulty using the old system. > SOME people have some difficulty with the new system. I disagree. I found the old system to be quite annoying. Every time I wanted to send a private reply, I had to grovel around in the headers to find the right address. As everyone has noticed, this often led to replys intended to be private winding up on the list. So I don't think it's accurate to say that "NOBODY had any..." From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 3 13:27:32 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In all this discussion of the New Classiccmp regime... I would >like to weigh in with Allison on the issue of HTML and Binary >attachments propagated to this List. I agree, I hate HTML and Binary attachments (though will use the binary attachments to a single person, if I know they can handle them). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 3 13:09:30 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2270 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000203/7b5741dc/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 3 14:42:02 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000203131408.00c8f210@pc> References: Message-ID: <200002031943.UAA27180@mail2.siemens.de> (just realized that I did send this mail only to Eric - just I keep copies since the last failure ... not exactly a user friendly solution) > "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > NOBODY had any serious difficulty using the old system. > > SOME people have some difficulty with the new system. > I disagree. I found the old system to be quite annoying. Every time I > wanted to send a private reply, I had to grovel around in the headers to > find the right address. As everyone has noticed, this often led to > replys intended to be private winding up on the list. > So I don't think it's accurate to say that "NOBODY had any..." If you send more replys via PM than to the list you may be right. I'd still go for a 'least possible effort' rule - and my majority of replys goes direct to the list. Shure, I also did sometimes miss to change the To part (and I still apology therefore) but thats way more rare than the other way. (oh and note the 'serious' part you left out) Servus Hans From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 3 14:45:43 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002031946.UAA28012@mail2.siemens.de> > > Several people wrote.... > > > I wonder if you would prefer if the "Respond To" portion should be: > > > "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" > > > as it used to???? (Well it used to be: "classiccmp@u.washington.edu") > > > I know that sometimes caused a bit of a problem for posts that were > > > supposed to be off list, but I think that is the more intended aspect????? > > I've had a fair amount of experience using (and setting up and running) > > quite a few mailing lists. The way they were always set up was the user sent > > to the list, and the list sent the mail back to all the subscribers with the > > reply address being the user who sent the post originally. In this manner if > > you hit the REPLY button to a post, your message goes to the person who sent > > the post, not the list. If you hit the REPLY ALL button, then your response > > went to the list AND the original poster. This is how 99.9% of all the lists > > I've ever seen are configured. > Actually, I've been investigating that, and that is _not_ what happens, > at least not with my mailer. > I am on a number of mailing lists. The ones which have Reply-to: pointing > to the sender seem to have _very_ little discussion on them. Most people > just send replies to the sender rather than to the list. The original > poster gets a number of replies giving essentially the same information, > since nobody can know that other people have already replied. > On the other hand, the lists that have Reply-to: pointing to the list > almost always have a lot of discussion on them. > Posting to the list (and I've only done it twice) has _already_ become a > pain for me. I guess I'll stay here, but while I have to fool around > editing headers (or worse, editing files in my mail queue because I've > forgotten to edit the headers), I'll not post anything like as much as I > used to. Some of you might think that's a Good Thing, though ;-). Through we're no always share the same idea, I'd prefer to read your stuff. Servus hans -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 3 14:54:33 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <200002031946.UAA28012@mail2.siemens.de> References: Message-ID: <200002031955.UAA29643@mail2.siemens.de> > > > [...] > > Posting to the list (and I've only done it twice) has _already_ become a > > pain for me. I guess I'll stay here, but while I have to fool around > > editing headers (or worse, editing files in my mail queue because I've > > forgotten to edit the headers), I'll not post anything like as much as I > > used to. Some of you might think that's a Good Thing, though ;-). > Through we're no always share the same idea, I'd prefer to read > your stuff. > Servus > hans AAARGH - this was intended to go for Tony - This switching around with which address to select is ridicoulous. Sorry Hans -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From elvey at hal.com Thu Feb 3 14:07:53 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: Yet another real message: Looking for info on disk controller In-Reply-To: <200002031946.UAA28012@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <200002032007.MAA22741@civic.hal.com> Hi I have a Dynabyte DD disk controller. It has a WD1781 controller chip on it. Does anyone have Docs on this board? Also, does anyone know if the 1781 is instruction compatible with the more generic western digital controllers? Thanks Dwight PS On the address reply issue: While everything changes, while everything changes! Oh well! From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Feb 3 14:42:49 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001801bf6e87$3c3f87a0$90e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Zane wrote: Yes to everything! I just got home, and found that with the machine I use at home that this is even more of a royal pain! It looks like Eudora Pro doesn't have a group reply. I thought this was a pain in the neck with 'elm', and yes, multiple people have pointed out "Group Reply", but I don't consider sending the person who's message I'm replying to, two copies acceptable behavior! I know *I* don't want two copies everytime someone replies to something I wrote. Here is something else to consider, there have got to be list members that have to pay *PER MINUTE* connection fees (remember those? *I* sure do). You do a group reply to those folks, you're costing them money! Then there is the disk space and bandwidth wasted by two messages. Oh, and yes, these are a couple of the reasons that I get a more than a little irritated with non-ASCII email and binary attachments! I reply , only to the list: The reasons you give for wishing to change back are the reasons I wish things to stay as they are now. I hit "Reply to All" and the reply goes to you, and to the list. I hit "Reply", and only you get the reply. I can easily go to the TO box, and remove your name if I wish to reply only to the list. I'll do this now.....OK, took about 2 seconds. Where is the problem? FWIW, I don't believe thinly veiled threats on the part of prominent list members who want their own way should be considered valid arguments in this debate, I.E. : I'll stay subscribed for now (so I can get some replies on this) but if I have to unsubscribe then I hope there is an easy mechanism for me to continue to post messages to the list without having to be subscribed. If not, I don't think I'll be passing on any messages from people coming to me with old hardware wanting to find new homes for it. I would have expected more logical argumentation and discussion from a group heavily vested in this resource. Bill From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Feb 3 14:36:57 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: UnknownTI Hardware in Kansas City Message-ID: Back to old computers I came across a TI system 1100 in my surplus excavations. I haven't found anything on the Web about it. It's not a TI explorer. It looks like a blue-Grey deskside case. I've searched both TI's web site which indicates they sold all UNIX hardware to HP. I've searched HP's web site which is not very informative. Any information out there? Mike If I had kept one of every computer I've programmed I would be living in a warehouse without family or pets, but I would have lots of fun. mmcfadden@cmh.edu From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Feb 3 14:43:22 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: DEC Hardware in Kansas City, TK25, RD53 Message-ID: For all you mature computer lovers I just came across the following, I'm looking for a home for it. 2 TK25 tape drives in desktop cases 1 RD53 disk in desktop case 1 desktop case, looks like MicroVax2000 external disk or tape case. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Feb 3 14:50:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: Send Again instead of Reply Message-ID: I was just sitting looking at the headers, and it dawned on me, instead of reply I could just do a "send again" since the TO: header has the list address. This is using Eudora 3.1 on a Mac, but may apply to others as well. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Feb 3 14:51:48 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: Keydisc? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000203131408.00c8f210@pc> References: <8025687A.0053B54C.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: >Why hasn't anyone else piped up about the usefulness and reliability >of using punched cards and paper tape to archive the mailing list >as well as compose replies? My mail header may claim to say I use >Eudora, but I actually use an ASR-33, sending tapes to my ISP for delivery. This makes me curious, anybody have, or care about the Keydisc consoles that replaced keypunch for a lot of data entry? From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Feb 3 15:33:22 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: Vocal Minority Message-ID: In all the interesting discussion re: the 'reply' function (and I am a tad annoyed that I have to get two copies of each reply, from each person who replies, to a message that I posted, separated by as much as 15 minutes) I got to thinking that there might be 25 or 30 listmembers who actively post messages out of... ??? how many subscribers? 200? 400? Are (we) attempting to dictate list policy for the majority? Is anyone keeping even a rough record of the 'Old' vs 'New' camps? If votes be kept... I am tending to like the 'Reply To:' functionality the way it >WAS< ... ie' hitting 'reply' [in Pine] replies to the List and not to the Poster. I am one of those who has no control over the configuration of Pine, and, it would seem, neither does anyone else at Netcom/Mindspring/Earthlink, or whatever they're called *this* week. ;} obclassiccmp: Speaking of S/N ratios... I got a pair of DEC Pro-350 machines, with a large amount of original software packages, documentation etc... are there any other 300/350 owners out there who are trying to restore a system? I may be able to help with printsets, etc. Cheerz John PS: Classiccmp Mantra: "OM! Its only a hobby; Its only a hobby; Its only a hobby; Its only........." From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Feb 3 15:40:14 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: Keydisc? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >Why hasn't anyone else piped up about the usefulness and reliability > >of using punched cards and paper tape to archive the mailing list > >as well as compose replies? My mail header may claim to say I use > >Eudora, but I actually use an ASR-33, sending tapes to my ISP for delivery. > > This makes me curious, anybody have, or care about the Keydisc consoles > that replaced keypunch for a lot of data entry? Well... while I don't have one (tho it would look kool next to my '029), I do have (fond?) memories of working on one back in my data entry days... As well as some interesting(?) key to tape machines when I was doing data entry at Farmers Insurance. (eek! another bit of my sordid past leaks out...) ...and does anyone besides me think that the IBM 129 on eBay with the $1500.00 reserve (I think thats the amount I saw quoted) is just a bit 'out there'? -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From spc at armigeron.com Thu Feb 3 15:42:45 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: On Reply-To: munging from RFC-822, section 4.4.3 (page 22) In-Reply-To: <20000203120500.O6677@alcor.concordia.ca> from "Rich Lafferty" at Feb 03, 2000 12:05:00 PM Message-ID: <200002032142.QAA10929@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Rich Lafferty once stated: > > On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 06:00:33PM +0000, Hans Franke (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) wrote: > > > > Last but not least, it's the RFC 822 way - and standards are the > > only real chance to go along. > > I'm not sure what you mean, here. RFC 822 specifies that the Reply-To: > is to be set by the originator, but the rest of your post seems to > suggest that majordomo should change it. Could you clarify? Just in case you missed it last time (from RFC-822, available via ftp://nis.nsf.net/documents/rfc/rfc0822.txt , page 22): 4.4.3. REPLY-TO / RESENT-REPLY-TO This field provides a general mechanism for indicating any mailbox(es) to which responses are to be sent. Three typical uses for this feature can be distinguished. In the first case, the author(s) may not have regular machine-based mail- boxes and therefore wish(es) to indicate an alternate machine address. In the second case, an author may wish additional persons to be made aware of, or responsible for, replies. A somewhat different use may be of some help to "text message teleconferencing" groups equipped with automatic distribution services: include the address of that service in the "Reply- To" field of all messages submitted to the teleconference; then participants can "reply" to conference submissions to guarantee the correct distribution of any submission of their own. That last sentance allows majordomo to ``munge'' the Reply-To: field. If you want, I can even send you the RFC in question. -spc (Any questions?) From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 16:50:43 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: <001801bf6e87$3c3f87a0$90e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Bill Dawson wrote: > you, and to the list. I hit "Reply", and only you get the reply. I can > easily go to the TO box, and remove your name if I wish to reply only to the > list. I'll do this now.....OK, took about 2 seconds. Where is the problem? The problem here is diversity of mail clients. Not all allow you to simply delete the individual's address and be done with it. PINE, for instance (what I currently use) requires me to cut the classiccmp address from the CC line and paste it to the To: line, but only after I've deleted the To: line. You are looking at it from your (somewhat limited) perspective. You probably use a GUI-based e-mail client. I don't. Like many others, I prefer to use a text-based mail reader over a telnet connection because I'm old school and damn proud of it. In fact, a lot of people subscribed to this list are naturally old school, and naturally are using older systems without all the fancy editing features your mail reader apparently does. In fact, that's what this list is all about: old school people using old school systems to talk about old school computers. That being the case, the list should cater to us old schoolers. It should also: * Conform to the RFC * Be conducive to a PUBLIC discussion that can be archived for posterity * Not send out more replies than are required, thus annoying people > FWIW, I don't believe thinly veiled threats on the part of prominent list > members who want their own way should be considered valid arguments in this > debate, I.E. : <...> Well, I've pretty much laid out very logical reasons to revert to the old method, which I've reiterated above. Perhaps you need to read a little further into the discussion. Quite frankly, I don't care how it turns out because I'm only subscribed by virtue of the fact that I was a subscribed (but inactive) member of the old list. I'm just still trying to figure out a way to stop the messages from coming to me without having to unsubscribe. If I have to unsubscribe to make this happen, then I'll probably not want to go through the trouble of re-subscribing just to post a quick message say "This person has this hardware..." and then having to unsubscribe again. SO I guess what I'm saying is, this software sucks and has caused nothing but grief for all involved, so let's just go back to the old list processing software that u.washington.edu was using. Screw MajorDomo. I don't even like that name. What the fork is a MajorDomo anyway? Screw MajorDomo, it's developer, and the boat that person came in on. > I would have expected more logical argumentation and discussion from a group > heavily vested in this resource. Once would, but look at what we've mainly talked about since the list became active again. We're a wacky bunch. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Feb 3 15:55:13 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <200002031655.LAA06708@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <000501bf6e91$599ae560$90e3dfd0@cobweb.net> 4.4.3. REPLY-TO / RESENT-REPLY-TO This field provides a general mechanism for indicating any mailbox(es) to which responses are to be sent. Three typical uses for this feature can be distinguished. In the first case, the author(s) may not have regular machine-based mail- boxes and therefore wish(es) to indicate an alternate machine address. In the second case, an author may wish additional persons to be made aware of, or responsible for, replies. A >>> somewhat different use may be of some help to "text message >>> teleconferencing" groups equipped with automatic distribution >>> services: include the address of that service in the "Reply- >>> To" field of all messages submitted to the teleconference; >>> then participants can "reply" to conference submissions to >>> guarantee the correct distribution of any submission of their >>> own. (emphasis mine). And that, I think ends this discussion. O.K. Valid argument. I now agree with those who wish to change back to the *OLD* way. Most replies are directed back to the group anyway, not to individuals. It's not a case of hardware, software, or means. It's more one of functionality and purpose. The purpose should be to facilitate discussion with the group and to disseminate information to the group. A replies to an individuals directly is not the main purpose of CLASSICCMP as I see it. Bill FWIW, if you wish to reply to me directly: whdawson@mlynk.com Easy enough to replace the "TO address" with the above, isn't it. AAMOF, an individual's contact information should be one of the last items included in a post to the group. Isn't that why it was requested to be there before? From spc at armigeron.com Thu Feb 3 15:59:35 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: Not setting Reply-To: affects me this way ... Message-ID: <200002032159.QAA11180@armigeron.com> I just realized another annoyance I'm encountering because of the lack of Reply-To---I now have to search for mail I've sent. I use elm. I've been using elm since 1989 and I have no plans to change that any time soon (I've tried pine and I don't care for it). One setting I have enabled on elm is saving all email I send out. Such email is stored based upon the email address being sent to. Since a group reply places the list address in the Cc: line, the email is still stored, but not under the classiccmp folder (file actually), but a different folder. So now I have to search (grep) through 231 (at of right now) folders for messages I send to classiccmp. That also means when I want to save a particular message it won't be stuffed under the classiccmp folder by default (I'm used to hitting 's-enter' and now that does The Wrong Thing). But majordomo (or any mailing list software) is still RFC-822 compliant even if it does set the Reply-To: field and it seems to me that the annoyance having to do a 'group' reply outweighs the benefit of `reply' going to the list. So, what exactly, is the problem (really, no hypothetical pathological cases here) of setting the Reply-To: field? -spc (Yes, I should clean out my folders ... ) From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 3 16:07:37 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: On Reply-To: munging from RFC-822, section 4.4.3 (page 22) In-Reply-To: <200002032142.QAA10929@armigeron.com>; from spc@armigeron.com on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:42:45PM -0500 References: <20000203120500.O6677@alcor.concordia.ca> <200002032142.QAA10929@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <20000203170737.D10106@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:42:45PM -0500, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner (spc@armigeron.com) wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Rich Lafferty once stated: > > > > On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 06:00:33PM +0000, Hans Franke (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) wrote: > > > > > > Last but not least, it's the RFC 822 way - and standards are the > > > only real chance to go along. > > > > I'm not sure what you mean, here. RFC 822 specifies that the Reply-To: > > is to be set by the originator, but the rest of your post seems to > > suggest that majordomo should change it. Could you clarify? > > Just in case you missed it last time (from RFC-822, available via > ftp://nis.nsf.net/documents/rfc/rfc0822.txt , page 22): > > 4.4.3. REPLY-TO / RESENT-REPLY-TO > > This field provides a general mechanism for indicating any > mailbox(es) to which responses are to be sent. Three typical > uses for this feature can be distinguished. In the first > case, the author(s) may not have regular machine-based mail- > boxes and therefore wish(es) to indicate an alternate machine > address. In the second case, an author may wish additional > persons to be made aware of, or responsible for, replies. A > somewhat different use may be of some help to "text message > teleconferencing" groups equipped with automatic distribution > services: include the address of that service in the "Reply- > To" field of all messages submitted to the teleconference; > then participants can "reply" to conference submissions to > guarantee the correct distribution of any submission of their > own. > > That last sentance allows majordomo to ``munge'' the Reply-To: field. If > you want, I can even send you the RFC in question. You left out the context of that passage, which describes how the *originator* can use the Reply-To header. Majordomo is not the originator of messages sent to the list, it's the sender. RFC 822 also specifies Note: The "Reply-To" field is added by the originator and serves to direct replies, whereas the "Return-Path" field is used to identify a path back to the origina- tor. Although I'm starting to wonder if this isn't symptomatic of a majordomo bug, or at least a design flaw. It would make sense to me to configure Majordomo such that the Reply-To points to the list *unless* the originator added its own Reply-To, in which case it would leave that there. That way, you'd have discussion on the list except when the original poster intended otherwise, which strikes me as something that the original poster might very well want. This would satisfy the objection of lost information (which strikes me as the only thing that isn't a question of preference or user-agent configuration -- when majordomo strips a reply-to, it's *gone*) and the objection of encouraging public discussion (in that unless otherwise specified by the originator, the reply is directed to the list). I don't believe that this is possible with current majordomo, but I'm really not sure *why*. Does anyone know? If not, I think I might throw together a patch for this. (Would we want it? If nothing else I'll use it locally..) While trying to figure out why, I came across the following in the majordomo FAQ which might be worth considering: The most important reason why Reply-To: to the list is bad is that it can cause mail loops if any of the members of your list are running fairly-common but broken software which doesn't know what an envelope address is. (Many Microsoft products, as well as many other PC-based non-SMTP/Internet mail systems which work through an SMTP gateway.) I don't have any of those systems to find out what they're talking about, though. Or are they just referring to autoresponders? -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Feb 3 15:35:42 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap In-Reply-To: John Lawson "Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap" (Feb 3, 8:10) References: Message-ID: <10002032135.ZM5856@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 3, 8:10, John Lawson wrote: > In all this discussion of the New Classiccmp regime... I would > like to weigh in with Allison on the issue of HTML and Binary > attachments propagated to this List. [...] > If this instance of majordomo has such filters, I, for one, would > like to see them energized.... I was about to "second" Allison, but I'll "third" John instead since he beat me to it :-) I don't mind the bandwidth (though I might if HTML became more common), it's just that it's a nuisance to read HTML (or anything with "alternate-part"s) in another window, so I just skip over it with the delete key. And my non-Microsoft mailers on no-M$ OSs don't handle some of their more execrable alternatives anyway. As far as I'm concerned, email is an ASCII (or perhaps ISO-8859-X) medium. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Feb 3 16:15:46 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: regarding the reply address on the list...." (Feb 3, 18:00) References: <200002031700.SAA22100@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <10002032215.ZM5889@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 3, 18:00, Hans Franke wrote: > So here's my ME-TOO-NOT-LIKE-THE-NEW mail: > Last but not least, it's the RFC 822 way - and standards are the > only real chance to go along. Except that mailing lists are not what RFC 822 defined "Reply-to:" for. Its primary purpose is quite different; it's to force a reply to a valid address when the sender's "From:" is not valid. Quote: "The "Reply-To" field is added by the originator" The RFC 822 method would be to set the "From:" field to "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" , and set the "Sender:" field to the name of the person who originated the message (which is exactly the opposite to what majordomo is doing, I notice, but that's perfectly legitimate). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Feb 3 16:11:51 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) In-Reply-To: Aaron Christopher Finney "Re: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd)" (Feb 3, 7:59) References: Message-ID: <10002032211.ZM5885@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 3, 7:59, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > My mailer doesn't "click"... > > On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, David C. Jenner wrote: > > > I vote for the new way. It's now trivial to > > reply either to the sender alone, the sender > > and the list, or the list alone. > > > > With a decent mailer each of these options is > > now one click. Maybe Aaron has soundless keys :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 3 15:53:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 678 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000203/5c0b8a10/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 3 15:50:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3332 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000203/78f0428e/attachment.ksh From west at tseinc.com Thu Feb 3 16:30:29 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: IMPORTANT PLEASE READ Message-ID: <012001bf6e96$46984fc0$d402a8c0@tse.com> I can't believe I heard someone say just go back to the old software. With the level of expertise of the people on this list, I should *NOT* have to say the following, but I'm apparently going to have to - PLEASE READ THIS: Majordomo is perfectly capable of making the list work just the way it always did. Period. It is not an issue of the list software forcing the configuration this way. It is not an issue with the host system. It is simply a configuration issue which can be easily changed. It can be done any way the folks here want it done and will work just as well as it always did. The problem I'm having is this: I am a relative newcomer to this list (about the last 12 months perhaps). I was not around when this list was started. As such, I have no knowledge as to if this list is owned by Derek and thus he has total sayso or if everything was always done by group concensus or what. I assumed (perhaps incorrectly - to this date I still have no idea if this is correct or not) that Derek ran the list. Please imagine my position. Everyone is saying do it one way or another and I don't know if I'm supposed to go with whatever Derek says or if I'm supposed to be listening and counting votes. I'm stuck in the middle because a fair number of folks aren't happy. I haven't received any email from Derek for several days so I don't know what should be done. I CAN do whatever should be done but SOMEONE has to tell me definitively what to do. My personal preference at this point is to change the configuration so that it works as it did on u.washington.edu. and we can always discuss the merits of doing it a different way later. That would be easy to do and I can do it right now. But there's the rub - if I go do that right now and make the reply-to stuff work the way it did am I stepping on Derek's toes? Or am I ignoring the will of the group? I would greatly appreciate it if someone could just authoritatively say "do it this way". I offered to do this free of charge and I have no problem with that at all. I just don't know who to listen to. Somebody educate me on this please. Jay West From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Feb 3 16:35:00 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "regarding the reply address on the list...." (Feb 3, 19:09) References: Message-ID: <10002032235.ZM5900@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 3, 19:09, Tony Duell wrote: > > Several people wrote.... > > > I wonder if you would prefer if the "Respond To" portion should be: > On the other hand, the lists that have Reply-to: pointing to the list > almost always have a lot of discussion on them. Interesting observation, and whilst I don't doubt Tony's word, I can't help noticing that an awful lot of discussion seems to have managed to make it's way onto the list today! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 3 16:41:45 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: IMPORTANT PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: <012001bf6e96$46984fc0$d402a8c0@tse.com>; from west@tseinc.com on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:30:29PM -0600 References: <012001bf6e96$46984fc0$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: <20000203174145.G10106@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:30:29PM -0600, Jay West (west@tseinc.com) wrote: > > Majordomo is perfectly capable of making the list work just the way it > always did. Period. Well, careful -- LISTSERV also offered the "Respect" option, which does as I describe below. I'm not sure if at UW the configuration was Reply-to= LIST # always force Reply-To: classiccmp@... or Reply-to= LIST,RESPECT # only add Reply-To: classiccmp@... if sender # didn't specify her own. Anyone remember? > ignoring the will of the group? I would greatly appreciate it if someone > could just authoritatively say "do it this way". I offered to do this free > of charge and I have no problem with that at all. I just don't know who to > listen to. Somebody educate me on this please. Out of curiosity, and without any other arguments surrounding it -- are there objections to having majordomo set the Reply-To unless the user explicitly sets it to something else? I've looked at the source and it seems like a trivial hack, and I'd be happy to submit a patch even if it's not going to be included in majordomo proper. (For what it's worth, this is even a contentious issue amongst the *developers* of majordomo! :-) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From spc at armigeron.com Thu Feb 3 16:46:51 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: On Reply-To: munging from RFC-822, section 4.4.3 (page 22) In-Reply-To: <20000203170737.D10106@alcor.concordia.ca> from "Rich Lafferty" at Feb 03, 2000 05:07:37 PM Message-ID: <200002032246.RAA11869@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Rich Lafferty once stated: > > On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:42:45PM -0500, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner (spc@armigeron.com) wrote: > > > > Just in case you missed it last time (from RFC-822, available via > > ftp://nis.nsf.net/documents/rfc/rfc0822.txt , page 22): > > > > 4.4.3. REPLY-TO / RESENT-REPLY-TO [ snip ] > > That last sentance allows majordomo to ``munge'' the Reply-To: field. If > > you want, I can even send you the RFC in question. > > You left out the context of that passage, which describes how the > *originator* can use the Reply-To header. Majordomo is not the > originator of messages sent to the list, it's the sender. RFC 822 also > specifies > > Note: The "Reply-To" field is added by the originator and > serves to direct replies, whereas the "Return-Path" > field is used to identify a path back to the origina- > tor. That note comes from section 4.3.1, which covers RETURN-PATH. But this now hinges on what you (or RFC-822) means by ``originator.'' I interpret that to mean the mailing list software. I (originator #1) send a message to the list. That in turn accepts the mail, then turns around and then becomes originator #2 in sending a copy out to the recipients of the list. > Although I'm starting to wonder if this isn't symptomatic of a > majordomo bug, or at least a design flaw. It would make sense to me to > configure Majordomo such that the Reply-To points to the list *unless* > the originator added its own Reply-To, in which case it would leave > that there. To me that sounds reasonable, but that still means you have to be careful in replying privately to a message send publically without an explicit Reply-To: added by the original sender. > While trying to figure out why, I came across the following in the > majordomo FAQ which might be worth considering: > > The most important reason why Reply-To: to the list is bad is that it > can cause mail loops if any of the members of your list are running > fairly-common but broken software which doesn't know what an envelope > address is. (Many Microsoft products, as well as many other PC-based > non-SMTP/Internet mail systems which work through an SMTP gateway.) > > I don't have any of those systems to find out what they're talking > about, though. Or are they just referring to autoresponders? You got me there. My experience has only been with Unix based tools. -spc (The Devil is in the details, eh?) From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Feb 3 16:52:08 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: 150 kVA Topaz available Message-ID: Here at wurk they have decomissioned a largish computer room, shipped off all the 'puters in their crates, and disposed of the above-captioned Topaz unit. It has Model number A9-M150, and has three seperate breaker sections in it, each with 30 or so single-phase breakers, one 225 A disconnect per section, and a 300A main breaker, as well as the displays for the input and regulation sections. It is big, heavy +/- 1 kilopounds, on wheels... Any interest? It can be had fairly cheaply, and must have been in the $20K range new. E-mail me off list if interested. Cheers John From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Feb 3 16:58:16 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: IBM card punches (was Re: Keydisc?) Message-ID: <20000203225816.8628.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> --- James Willing wrote: > Well... while I don't have one (tho it would look kool next to my '029) You have an 029? I've got an 026 that is in need of some cleaning/adjusting. Have you ever gone through the process? When we fire it up, not all the right things happen when feeding a card from the hopper. Where do you get your punch cards from? I know you can still order them, but I don't want to buy 10,000 cards at a time. I'm thinking more like a few hundred at a time, and a few colored cards for dividers. Also, do you have a set of the leaf-spring force measurement thingies? I need to aquire a set for the 026 and TTY adjustment, and have no idea where to buy them. Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 3 16:24:09 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: On Reply-To: munging from RFC-822, section 4.4.3 (page 22) In-Reply-To: <200002032246.RAA11869@armigeron.com> (spc@armigeron.com) References: <200002032246.RAA11869@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <20000203222409.5963.qmail@brouhaha.com> There's an obvious solution to this problem which will satisfy (almost) everyone. Set up two lists, one with each behavior. Arrange for a single address to mail postings, which get distributed to both lists. (It would be bad to have two addresses, as inevitably someone would send the same postings to both.) Each individual subscriber can choose which header style he or she desires by subscribing to the appropriate list. This requires a bit more work (one time) on the part of the system administrator (Jay). I'd be willing to help with that. (This would be even easier with mailing list software that sent each message separately per subscriber, as is done by Ezmlm. But I don't think Majordomo works that way.) From spc at armigeron.com Thu Feb 3 17:08:54 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: IMPORTANT PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: <012001bf6e96$46984fc0$d402a8c0@tse.com> from "Jay West" at Feb 03, 2000 04:30:29 PM Message-ID: <200002032308.SAA12206@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Jay West once stated: > > My personal preference at this point is to change the configuration so that > it works as it did on u.washington.edu. and we can always discuss the merits > of doing it a different way later. That would be easy to do and I can do it > right now. But there's the rub - if I go do that right now and make the > reply-to stuff work the way it did am I stepping on Derek's toes? Or am I > ignoring the will of the group? I would greatly appreciate it if someone > could just authoritatively say "do it this way". I offered to do this free > of charge and I have no problem with that at all. I just don't know who to > listen to. Somebody educate me on this please. It is easier to ask forgiveness than ask permission. Change it. If Derek complains, ask for forgiveness and change it back. Then we can complain to Derek. -spc (I'll take the responsibility then!) From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 18:09:25 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <10002032215.ZM5889@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Except that mailing lists are not what RFC 822 defined "Reply-to:" for. > Its primary purpose is quite different; it's to force a reply to a valid > address when the sender's "From:" is not valid. > > Quote: "The "Reply-To" field is added by the originator" It's a matter of semantics but arguably the "originator" in this case is the list software. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 18:15:39 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: IMPORTANT PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: <012001bf6e96$46984fc0$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Jay West wrote: > ignoring the will of the group? I would greatly appreciate it if someone > could just authoritatively say "do it this way". I offered to do this free > of charge and I have no problem with that at all. I just don't know who to > listen to. Somebody educate me on this please. Ok, here you go: Change the reply-to address to be the list by default. I have spoken. (OK, flame away...I'm unsubscribing now anyway :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 18:17:02 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: IMPORTANT PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: <20000203174145.G10106@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Rich Lafferty wrote: > Out of curiosity, and without any other arguments surrounding it -- > are there objections to having majordomo set the Reply-To unless the > user explicitly sets it to something else? I've looked at the source > and it seems like a trivial hack, and I'd be happy to submit a patch > even if it's not going to be included in majordomo proper. I think this is a mighty fine solution and I endorse. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Feb 3 17:33:36 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "RE: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING" (Feb 3, 21:50) References: Message-ID: <10002032333.ZM6043@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 3, 21:50, Tony Duell wrote: > > The reasons you give for wishing to change back are the reasons I wish > > things to stay as they are now. I hit "Reply to All" and the reply goes to > > you, and to the list. I hit "Reply", and only you get the reply. I can > > Ah, but that doesn't work properly if you're replying to a message that > somebody else has already group-replied to. > > Supposing you post to classiccmp, and I group-reply. The message is now > going to classiccmp@... _and you_. Suppose Philip Belben then > group-replies to the message. It now has you, me, and the list as > addresses. Then Megan (say) group-replies to that. Before long, the > header contains the address of every 'regular' here. And we all get > things twice. > > The only ways for me to reply to the list _only_ seem to be : You missed one: "reply-all" and remove the original author's address. It obviously depends on the mailer(s) involved. With the one I use nearly all the time (zmail under Unix), if I hit "reply all" then both the list and original author addresses appear in the "To:" header, and because of the way that's presented by this particular mailer, it's easy for me to remove the one I don't want (two keystrokes). However, if I reply to a followup that someone else has already responded to, and that message has the list address in the "Cc:" instead of the "To:" header, zmail keeps it in the "Cc:" and it means two more keystrokes to fix. I can do exactly the same thing in BSD Mail but it take an extra keystroke or two. And I apologise not always practising what I preach, i.e. for sending 3 extra copies of an earlier followup :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Feb 3 17:45:57 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: Identification of EPROM Programming board - AIM or KIM or ??? Message-ID: <000e01bf6ea0$d16a71a0$90e3dfd0@cobweb.net> To All, I just obtained a board which I think is an EPROM programming board for the AIM or KIM or ???, and I'm trying to find some information on it. It is not an RM65 board, the connector looks like it would plug right to an AIM. Here is a description: Measures 4-7/16 (4.4375)inches wide by 6-1/2 (6.5) inches long, including edge connector, lengthwise insertion. 44 pin gold plated edge connector with a 44 pin socket mounted immediately behind and parallel to the edge connector, on the component side of the PCB. 24 pin ZIF connector in the upper LH corner, viewing with the edge connector facing me (all descriptions below assume this position). 10 position DIP switch immediately to the right of the ZIF socket (no labeling), and another 10 position dip switch about halfway up the RHS, labeled 1 to 7 and B, C, D (probably address selection since one row of pins is all tied common and most of the pins on the other side of it go to a 74LS154). One LED, immediately to the right of the first 10 position DIP switch mentioned above, at the edge of the board. Two trimpots about center of the far edge of the board, to the right of the LED. Two jumper blocks, one with 2 pins, labeled W1, and one with 3 pins, labeled RO and RA. Two Toshiba 24 pin TMM2016P-1 RAMs left of center in second row of DIPs on the board. One 2516-45 EPROM to the left of the RAMS, with a label on top "6517A". On the solder side the only markings (in etch) are CUBIT INC, 1981 and the numbers 10362 and 6583. Most of the date codes on the ICs are between 8037 and 8203. There is no other model number, manufacturer, or other ID marking on this board. If anyone has any information on this board, please let me know (through the list). Thanks all, Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Thu Feb 3 17:47:36 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... References: <00dc01bf6deb$9b69af40$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <026c01bf6ea1$374f5800$a6e993c3@proteus> Hi Mike, > When I hit "reply to all" the list goes in the cc field.... >....95% of the time I want to reply to the list. Quite, the way the list is set up now, whether I hit "Reply to sender" or "Reply to all", I end up having to edit the "To:" field of the message to remove the senders' address. Frankly this really sucks, BIG TIME.... :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Thu Feb 3 17:47:01 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... References: <200002030902.EAA29776@armigeron.com> <20000203095650.B4057@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <026b01bf6ea1$3514aa40$a6e993c3@proteus> Hmm, only my second posting to the new list and already editing the "To:" address has become more than mildly annoying. :-( > Explain how someone wishing to reply to him can retrieve the >correct address at this point.... Well Brainiac, the new mailing list software doesn't appear to mess with the "Reply To:" field so it wouldn't be a problem. > It's awfully curious that a list full o' geeks can't figure out >how to reply to a message in their mail client. It's awfully curious that you're not able to figure this out for yourself....but then judging from the tone of your messages perhaps it isn't.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Feb 3 17:55:18 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: On Reply-To: munging from RFC-822, section 4.4.3 (page 22) In-Reply-To: <20000203222409.5963.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 10:24:09PM -0000 References: <200002032246.RAA11869@armigeron.com> <20000203222409.5963.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000203185518.B13547@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 10:24:09PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > There's an obvious solution to this problem which will satisfy > (almost) everyone. > > Set up two lists, one with each behavior. Arrange for a single address > to mail postings, which get distributed to both lists. (It would be bad > to have two addresses, as inevitably someone would send the same postings > to both.) > > Each individual subscriber can choose which header style he or she desires > by subscribing to the appropriate list. That's *such* a good idea! I was going to suggest modifying the list server to have user-settable preferences and giving everyone the exact headers they want, but no one would ever get around to doing that (certainly not me, any time soon!). But making it two separate lists would take no time at all... Plus this flamewar could go away since people wouldn't have to agree after all! John Wilson D Bit From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Feb 3 17:56:21 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:35 2005 Subject: IBM card punches (was Re: Keydisc?) In-Reply-To: <20000203225816.8628.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- James Willing wrote: > > Well... while I don't have one (tho it would look kool next to my '029) > > You have an 029? Yep! Immortalized in flying bits on my web pages! > I've got an 026 that is in need of some cleaning/adjusting. > Have you ever gone through the process? Oh yes... many a time over the years. (complete docs help) > When we fire it up, not all the right things happen when feeding a card > from the hopper. Been there... What sort of 'not right things' are happening? (or not as the case might be) Most common gremlin I've seen on mine is a group of cam driven actuators that cycle a gang of lever switches, and the lubrication gums up and causes the actuators to stick (or be slow) and that completely messes up the cycling of the machine. I usually end up pulling out the block, removing all of the actuators (think there are five of them), giving them all a good clean and lube, and then we're off for another stretch. > Where do you get your punch cards from? I know you can still order them, > but I don't want to buy 10,000 cards at a time. I'm thinking more like > a few hundred at a time, and a few colored cards for dividers. Been there too... My current 'stock' was culled from a local recycler who had just carted off a large mainframe based data center and multiple pallets of cards. I got them for a couple of bucks per box, but the trick was to sort out the unused cards from the punched! All of the boxes of cards you see were palletized with little regard for where they had been on the shelves. B^{ Ummm... wait... 10,000??? that's only five boxes! Where did you find that would sell in that small a quantity? > Also, do you have a set of the leaf-spring force measurement thingies? I > need to aquire a set for the 026 and TTY adjustment, and have no idea where > to buy them. No, that's one tool that I've not picked up so far although they seem common enough. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Thu Feb 3 18:08:29 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:36 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING References: Message-ID: <02e801bf6ea4$22004c40$a6e993c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > I have always believed that on a discussion list like this you >should try to 'put something back in'.... > > This is a discussion list. I am of the (not so humble) opinion that >answers to questions posted here should also be posted to the list.... > > Remember this list is archived, and hopefully in the future it will >be of interest to computer historians. I suspect that the answers will >be at least as interesting as the questions, and thus need to be >archived as well. HALLELUJA!! TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From jmd at infinet.com Thu Feb 3 18:07:29 2000 From: jmd at infinet.com (jmd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:42 2005 Subject: Sony SMC-70 floppy disks Message-ID: <389A1841.CC1AF0EE@infinet.com> Hi all........ Good to see the list back again...... Recently I picked up a Sony SMC-70 with CP/M for Sony on floppy disks. I have recreated what the original owner had by purchasing the same model monitor and using his cable to connect the computer to the monitor. This is not the OEM monitor (anybody know what was?) but this setup worked for him. When I turn on the computer it scans for the floppy in a:, b: and then pauses and comes back to a: and reads the disk for about 12 seconds. Nothing more happens. There is no display on the screen. If I leave the a: drive empty and have *any* floppy in b: the computer scans a:, then b: goes back to b: for a couple of seconds then begins to beep until I put a floppy in a:. Still nothing on the screen. There is a switch on the side that has 3 options: OFF DISK ROM I have tried all three with no output to screen. Things I have done. 1) Double checked the pinouts against the drawing I was given. 2) I have tried the cable that connects to a B/W port on the box. I connect this to video on the monitor. 3) I have tested the monitor. I know it works in TV and video mode, but have no way to test for RGB. Which is how I am connecting. I am wondering if the floppies may have gone bad. (There are 4 disks labeled CP/M 2.2 and one also says Sony CP/M 2.2) They have been laying around for several years I think. If this is a possibility does anyone have known good floppies? thanks for any info jeff duncan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 3 17:26:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:42 2005 Subject: IBM card punches (was Re: Keydisc?) Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 780 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000203/0034fc62/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 3 19:16:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:42 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... Message-ID: <200002040116.UAA29337@world.std.com> I had to edit the header again, or this reply would have gone to Eric. I checked what the mailer(RFDmail) at home does... Same thing it did before. The last FROM: address it sees is the assumed reply address. Oh well. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 3 19:11:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:42 2005 Subject: Sony SMC-70 floppy disks Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2436 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000204/d97ee4b3/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 3 20:33:59 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: Identification of EPROM Programming board - AIM or KIM or ??? In-Reply-To: <000e01bf6ea0$d16a71a0$90e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000203213359.460f0f44@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Bill, I don't have any information on your board but The S-100 & Other Micro Buses by Poe and Goodwin talks about a KIM-4 board that is an expansion board for the Kim-1. The Kim-4 measures 11 x 11.5" inches and has two sockets that mate to the two expansion connectors on the Kim-1. The Kim-4 has six "expansion module connectors" on it that look similar to the card sockets in an IBM PC. The module connectors have 44 pins and the connections are *ALMOST* the same as those on the Kim-1. The Kim-4 also has one application connector on one edge and one bus expansion connector on the end opposite the Kim-1 connectors. The book says that the Kim-4 was made by MOS Technology, Inc. The same book also shows a "KIMSI" expansion board for the Kim-1. The KIMSI has eight >> S-100 buss << expansion connectors. FWIW, Joe At 06:45 PM 2/3/00 -0500, you wrote: >To All, > >I just obtained a board which I think is an EPROM programming board for the >AIM or KIM or ???, and I'm trying to find some information on it. It is not >an RM65 board, the connector looks like it would plug right to an AIM. Here >is a description: > >Measures 4-7/16 (4.4375)inches wide by 6-1/2 (6.5) inches long, including >edge connector, lengthwise insertion. > >44 pin gold plated edge connector with a 44 pin socket mounted immediately >behind and parallel to the edge connector, on the component side of the PCB. > >24 pin ZIF connector in the upper LH corner, viewing with the edge connector >facing me (all descriptions below assume this position). > >10 position DIP switch immediately to the right of the ZIF socket (no >labeling), and another 10 position dip switch about halfway up the RHS, >labeled 1 to 7 and B, C, D (probably address selection since one row of pins >is all tied common and most of the pins on the other side of it go to a >74LS154). > >One LED, immediately to the right of the first 10 position DIP switch >mentioned above, at the edge of the board. > >Two trimpots about center of the far edge of the board, to the right of the >LED. > >Two jumper blocks, one with 2 pins, labeled W1, and one with 3 pins, labeled >RO and RA. > >Two Toshiba 24 pin TMM2016P-1 RAMs left of center in second row of DIPs on >the board. > >One 2516-45 EPROM to the left of the RAMS, with a label on top "6517A". > >On the solder side the only markings (in etch) are CUBIT INC, 1981 and the >numbers 10362 and 6583. Most of the date codes on the ICs are between 8037 >and 8203. There is no other model number, manufacturer, or other ID marking >on this board. > >If anyone has any information on this board, please let me know (through the >list). > >Thanks all, > >Bill > >whdawson@mlynk.com > > From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 3 19:42:53 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: To anybody & everybody who needs to rebuild their Macintosh Portable batteries. Message-ID: <20000204014253.3806.qmail@hotmail.com> Great news! If there is anybody looking for replacement cells for their Macintosh Portable batteries, go to this site: http://www.hepi.com/ look for 2V 5.0Ah "Cyclon" size "X" cells They don't mention prices on the site, however, so buyer beware. Also, I don't want to get 20 e-mails saying that I led you to a company that ripped you off. I cannot, & will not, be held accountable for your actions! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mbg at world.std.com Thu Feb 3 19:49:22 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... Message-ID: <200002040149.UAA20094@world.std.com> >NOBODY had any serious difficulty using the old system. That is an assumption on your part... it just so happens that some of us did have problems with the old system. It seems that maybe we just didn't complain about it enough... :-) >SOME people have some difficulty with the new system. Parity... In fact, for this 'response', I decided to simply make it a new 'send' to the list, so the original author won't get a second copy of this message... this is easier for me than to have to search for and then cut-and-paste the address of the author if I want to send just to them... after all, the list is at a fixed address (for now). After all that, however, I'm going to withdraw my vote for the new system, I'll abstain. I'll get by with whatever is available (so long as it isn't the HTML-cr*p)... I do like Sellam's argument about information lost due to doing a reply and having it go only to the author and not the list. My $.02 Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Feb 3 20:50:05 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: CDC 9448 Message-ID: <20000203.205006.101.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: Anyone out there that still uses these? I have a bunch of spares (boards and r/w heads) for 'em. If there's any interest, please e-mail me privately. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 3 21:02:16 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <200002040149.UAA20094@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Megan wrote: > >NOBODY had any serious difficulty using the old system. > That is an assumption on your part... it just so happens that some of us > did have problems with the old system. It seems that maybe we just didn't > complain about it enough... :-) I stand corrected. I'll need to change that to: "Nobody complained about problems using the old system." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Feb 3 21:33:45 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: Focal In-Reply-To: <38999F74.31A88264@jaywalk.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000203193345.02ff7958@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Jon: I don't have the FOCAL source. I'm not sure it is available. Anyone comment? Kevin At 03:32 PM 00/02/03 +0000, you wrote: >Do you have the original source code for focal....I've looked at the >focal.txt file, but i'd like to know how everything works > >JON > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Feb 3 21:36:12 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: References: <200002031631.LAA09423@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000203193612.02ffbe40@ferrari.sfu.ca> I too vote against embedded HTML in email. Give me the content, the fancy formatting is superfluous. Kevin At 12:03 PM 00/02/03 -0500, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > >I really hate that HTML mail crap, too, and usually just delete it. I >have little enough time, anyway, I don't want to waste it it in HTML >unless I'm writing it. > >On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, John Wilson wrote: > >> >From: allisonp@world.std.com >> >> >Another pet peeve, posts/replies in html, I don't read them and dump them >> >sumarily as A) they are often spam, B)the are a pain to handle via said >> >slow telnet and pine. >> >> I have the same attitude, WHY do people think we would even want to see a >> fancy schmancy version of what they typed as simple ASCII text, especially >> when many of us read this list on simple ASCII terminals anyway so we can't >> see any of the colors or misaligned columns. It's especially annoying when >> a message contains the same text twice, once as text and once as HTML, so >> at least half of the message is useless to *everyone*. I would *love* it if >> list servers could be set up to filter this crap out, or at the very least >> run the HTML text through Lynx or something and translate it back to usable >> 80-column ASCII. >> >> FWIW I'm not crazy about the new header format, when I replied to this msg >> with "R" (I'm using Berkeley Mail) it would have gone to Allison only, and >> when I changed to "r", the mailing list was only there as a Cc:, if I had >> edited out the other recipients there would have been *no* primary recipient, >> only a Cc:. And that's certainly not what we want! >> >> This problem comes up on every mailing list, maybe it would make sense to >> define an X-Foo: header that gives the mailing list address and hack the >> popular mailers to have a "reply to mailing list" command? Or has this >> already been done and I'm just oblivious as usual? Of course this wouldn't >> help Windows users running canned mailers with no source code available, >> but what can I say, shame on you!!! :-) >> >> John Wilson >> D Bit >> > >M. K. Peirce >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. >215 Shady Lea Road, >North Kingstown, RI 02852 > >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Feb 3 21:53:36 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: <35.e3f778.25cba740@aol.com> Hello all Sadly, the WD1770 fcd IC in my home-brew fd i/o board finally gave up the ghost. Fourteen years of service is admirable -- when it finally croaked, I felt like weeping. Additionally, in violation of my policy of *always* keeping spares of discontinued components which I use -- I have no spare. Does anyone know of a source for these? Or the 1772 (I believe Tony Duell once mentioned that the 1772 could replace the 1770 in most cases -- but I could be wrong). Also, I understand that the C64 floppy drives (1581?) used the 1770 but I'm not a commie and can't immediately verify this. Anyone out there with junk C64 drives who wants to liberate this IC -- to a good home?? Any help at all on this will be greatly appreciated. Glen Goodwin 0/0 From rickb at bensene.com Thu Feb 3 22:41:35 2000 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: Focal In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000203193345.02ff7958@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: I have a VERY OLD listing of FOCAL-69 PAL-8 source (printed by, as I recall, a Centronics 101 printer attached to a Straight-8). It'd take some serious digging to find it, but I know it's around here somewhere. It's an amazing piece of programming. I spent a lot of time many years (like, oh, 23 years ago) ago figuring out how it all worked, and wrote a FOCAL interpreter, in, get this--- HP 2000F Timeshare BASIC. Needless to say, it was kind of slow...but it worked. I should dig it out and type it in...it wouldn't take too long. It's old enough that it's probably beyond scanning. Rick Bensene The Old Calculators Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators Kevin McQuiggin wrote, in response to a query by Jon Andrews: > > Hi Jon: > > I don't have the FOCAL source. I'm not sure it is available. > Anyone comment? > > Kevin > Jon wrote: > >Do you have the original source code for focal....I've looked at the > >focal.txt file, but i'd like to know how everything works > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Feb 3 21:45:03 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: Focal Message-ID: <01a901bf6ec2$38971740$702cd1d8@default> When requesting original DEC source code one must include flavor (12 bit, 16bit, 18bit, 36 bit) and vintage (Focal-1968, Focal-1969, Focal-1970, Focal 1.0b, etc), and style (preliminary, beta, released). I received a huge amount of original commented FOCAL source code/OP system source code in many different formats [paper tapes, dectapes, floppies, rk05 packs, etc..] from the DEC load. I hope to put the code online this year but....what do you need? john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com -----Original Message----- From: Kevin McQuiggin To: Jon Andrews Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, February 03, 2000 10:35 PM Subject: Re: Focal >Hi Jon: > >I don't have the FOCAL source. I'm not sure it is available. Anyone comment? > >Kevin > >At 03:32 PM 00/02/03 +0000, you wrote: >>Do you have the original source code for focal....I've looked at the >>focal.txt file, but i'd like to know how everything works >> >>JON >> >> > >--- >Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD >mcquiggi@sfu.ca > From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Feb 3 23:05:33 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: Focal In-Reply-To: <01a901bf6ec2$38971740$702cd1d8@default> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000203210533.00756154@ferrari.sfu.ca> If the source is available (and distributable) I can post a copy on highgate. Kevin At 10:45 PM 00/02/03 -0500, John B wrote: >When requesting original DEC source code one must include flavor (12 bit, >16bit, 18bit, 36 bit) and vintage (Focal-1968, Focal-1969, Focal-1970, Focal >1.0b, etc), and style (preliminary, beta, released). > >I received a huge amount of original commented FOCAL source code/OP system >source code in many different formats [paper tapes, dectapes, floppies, rk05 >packs, etc..] from the DEC load. I hope to put the code online this year >but....what do you need? > >john > >PDP-8 and other rare mini computers > >http://www.pdp8.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: Kevin McQuiggin >To: Jon Andrews >Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Date: Thursday, February 03, 2000 10:35 PM >Subject: Re: Focal > > >>Hi Jon: >> >>I don't have the FOCAL source. I'm not sure it is available. Anyone >comment? >> >>Kevin >> >>At 03:32 PM 00/02/03 +0000, you wrote: >>>Do you have the original source code for focal....I've looked at the >>>focal.txt file, but i'd like to know how everything works >>> >>>JON >>> >>> >> >>--- >>Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD >>mcquiggi@sfu.ca >> > > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Feb 4 00:49:19 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000203193612.02ffbe40@ferrari.sfu.ca> References: <200002031631.LAA09423@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: At 7:36 PM -0800 2/3/00, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: >I too vote against embedded HTML in email. Give me the content, the fancy >formatting is superfluous. The only problem being that most of the people who post HTML have no clue they are doing it. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Feb 4 02:15:48 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: Allison J Parent "Re: regarding the reply address on the list...." (Feb 3, 20:16) References: <200002040116.UAA29452@world.std.com> Message-ID: <10002040815.ZM6441@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 3, 20:16, Allison J Parent wrote: > I had to edit the header again, or this reply would have gone to Eric. > > I checked what the mailer(RFDmail) at home does... Same thing it did > before. The last FROM: address it sees is the assumed reply address. In compliance with RFC 822. About the only thing that can legitimately override that is a "Reply-to:". I wonder why no-one has thought of simply swapping the "Sender:" and "From:" headers? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Feb 4 02:13:28 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed In-Reply-To: Glenatacme@aol.com "WD1770 help needed" (Feb 3, 22:53) References: <35.e3f778.25cba740@aol.com> Message-ID: <10002040813.ZM6437@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 3, 22:53, Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > Sadly, the WD1770 fcd IC in my home-brew fd i/o board finally gave up the > ghost. Fourteen years of service is admirable -- when it finally croaked, > I felt like weeping. > Does anyone know of a source for these? Or the 1772 (I believe Tony Duell > once mentioned that the 1772 could replace the 1770 in most cases -- but I > could be wrong). The 1772 was designed to be a plug-in replacement. The main (only?) difference is in the programmed step rates. > Also, I understand that the C64 floppy drives (1581?) used the 1770 but I'm > not a commie and can't immediately verify this. I'd be surprised if so. I thought all Commodore micros apart from their ill-fated PCs used GCR. There are plenty of list members who know much more about C= stuff than I do, though... Atari STs used the 1772, so that's another potential source. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Feb 4 08:20:11 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #3 Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000204092011.007b0330@mail.wincom.net> >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 09:14:09 -0500 >To: classiccmp@opal.tseinc.com (This address bounced) From: "Charles E. Fox" >Subject: Re: classiccmp-digest V1 #3 >In-Reply-To: <200002031957.NAA33069@opal.tseinc.com> > > > > Since the restart of classiccmp I have only been getting classiccmp-digest, not individual messages. This is really time consuming as I have to check the entire message and not just the header. Is this a feature of the new setup, or have I just been left off a list? > > Regards > > Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Feb 4 08:47:09 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: Focal sources Message-ID: <000204094709.21600494@trailing-edge.com> Kevin wrote: >>Do you have the original source code for focal....I've looked at the >>focal.txt file, but i'd like to know how everything works >>JON > >I don't have the FOCAL source. I'm not sure it is available. Anyone comment? The DECUS PDP-8 Focal sources (in PAL10) are available. FOCAL.PA begins with: /**** FOCAL 5/69 **** /E.A.TAFT - REVISION OF FOCALW 8/68 /EAT/ 25-JUL-72 /ASSEMBLY INSTRUCTIONS FOR DECUS VERSION: /INPUT FILES: / FOCAL.569 FOCAL LANGUAGE PROCESSOR / FLOAT.569 FLOATING POINT PACKAGE / EXTEND.569 EXTENDED FUNCTION PACKAGE / 2USER.569 2-USER OVERLAY What I have is in the "nickel" PDP-8 DECTAPE archive rescued by me from the University of Indiana several years ago. The Focal stuff, in particular, is on the web at: http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/focal/ If you were asking about FOCAL-10 (for a PDP-10), this is available on the web as well, from the home to all good software that's PDP-10 related: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0462/ If you want the PDP-11 (specifically, for RT-11) sources, you can find this at the Metalab.unc.edu PDP-11 archives as DECUS entry 11-0447. Go to http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ then go into the RT-11 archives, pick the "decus11" directory, and you'll see three 110477 directories (d1, d2, and d3), one for each original floppy. I also have much RSX and DOS-11 FOCAL stuff that's not indexed yet. I hope this helps. If none of these packages meets your needs, you might ask again for your specific platform(s). Enjoy! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Feb 4 09:11:14 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <000501bf6e91$599ae560$90e3dfd0@cobweb.net> References: <200002031655.LAA06708@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000204095612.00b4e160@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 04:55 PM 2/3/00 -0500, Bill Dawson said something like: -- snip -- >>>> somewhat different use may be of some help to "text message >>>> teleconferencing" groups equipped with automatic distribution >>>> services: include the address of that service in the "Reply- >>>> To" field of all messages submitted to the teleconference; >>>> then participants can "reply" to conference submissions to >>>> guarantee the correct distribution of any submission of their >>>> own. > > (emphasis mine). And that, I think ends this discussion. > > > >O.K. Valid argument. I now agree with those who wish to change back to the >*OLD* way. Most replies are directed back to the group anyway, not to >individuals. > >It's not a case of hardware, software, or means. It's more one of >functionality and purpose. The purpose should be to facilitate discussion >with the group and to disseminate information to the group. A replies to an >individuals directly is not the main purpose of CLASSICCMP as I see it. This is now the way I feel too Bill. I see the light: An important technical discussion kept private will not benefit the group as a whole nor benefit those researchers (ourselves and others) who try to find answers from the Archives and is essentially a Bad Thing. I feel the *OLD* way is preferable. We just gotta keep in mind that a reply intended to be private will automatically go to the whole list as it always had been before now. That's about the only significant problem with having an open forum as the old ClassicCmp setup had been. It would also relieve some of the significant problems that folks like Tony, Allison, et al. have just started having. I may even want to try using Pine or try telneting or try something else "classic" someday myself. It's true classic computer operation in a sense as opposed to this windoze stuff. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Feb 4 10:00:41 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: IBM card punches (was Re: Keydisc?) In-Reply-To: <20000203225816.8628.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000204102522.00b51dc0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 02:58 PM 2/3/00 -0800, Ethan Dicks said something like: >--- James Willing wrote: >> Well... while I don't have one (tho it would look kool next to my '029) > >You have an 029? I've got an 026 that is in need of some cleaning/adjusting. >Have you ever gone through the process? When we fire it up, not all the >right things happen when feeding a card from the hopper. -- snip -- > >Also, do you have a set of the leaf-spring force measurement thingies? I >need to aquire a set for the 026 and TTY adjustment, and have no idea where >to buy them. One source is Neuses Tools in the Chicago area http://www.pkneuses.com/. They specialize in tools for the telecommunications industry. They are a small speciallized company and are therefore a bit pricey but by golly they've got a selection of eight spring tension guage products from 0 - 10 grams up to 2000 grams range. Another real neat company who has a truly heavenly selection of tools for the precision craftsman/restorer/modelmaker is Small Parts Inc. at http://www.smallparts.com/. I've got their catalog and am extremely impressed by their selection of tools, supplies, books, resources and hard to find stuff contained within. In looking at it I hyperventilate at some of the goodies! :-) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From dastar at siconic.com Fri Feb 4 11:37:55 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: IBM parts to donate (fwd) Message-ID: This guy has an IBM 5360 (huge beast) to give to a good home. He also wants to trade PDP and VAX stuff. Please reply directly to the original sender. Reply-to: cureau@pcstarnet.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 08:41:03 -0500 From: Chris Cureau To: sellam@siconic.com Subject: IBM parts to donate Hi there. :-) I've got an IBM 5360, a 5224 printer and two 5291 terminals with keyboards. If you're interested, please let me know... I'm also looking for a few parts for projects I'm working on...specifically from PDPs and MicroVAXen. If you'd like to trade, let me know. :-) Cheers, Chris Cureau Pumpelly Oil Company (337) 625-1117 Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Feb 4 11:17:54 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <10002040815.ZM6441@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > In compliance with RFC 822. About the only thing that can legitimately > override that is a "Reply-to:". I wonder why no-one has thought of simply > swapping the "Sender:" and "From:" headers? Ah, that would be true for most mailers... the one I use at home is a bit mroe creative. It's really a script that runs and interacts with unix mail and effectively collects mail by extracting it (header and all) and sending it via zmodem to the local system. Now the local software collects all this and creats an index plus an inbox. So, when I reply it parses the TEXT that has an attaced header and looks for the FROM: and uses that as the address. I can completely override that. Replied mails are effectively from my system not replied but new messages containing the old mail. It's flexible to the limits of the script portion but the rest of it is black box borland code. The author never released it even though it's shareware and he lives about 15miles away. Allison From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Feb 4 11:29:10 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: IBM parts to donate (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000204112910.01728180@pc> At 09:37 AM 2/4/00 -0800, DASTAR COM wrote: > >This guy has an IBM 5360 (huge beast) to give to a good home. He also >wants to trade PDP and VAX stuff. Please reply directly to the >original sender. He sent me a message, too. I guess this web-page donation-bait works. Below is the rest of the info that anyone would need to know. - John From: Chris Cureau X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (OS/2; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: John Foust Subject: Re: IBM 5360 Hey, John. I'm in Sulphur, Lousiana...it's near Lake Charles, about 30 miles east of the Texas border. When the system leaves, there will be no software loaded on the system, as I have been asked to wipe the drives. I know the disks for RPG II and the operating system are here, as well as other boxes full of disks and manuals. When I mentioned moving the machine, I mentioned the word 'donation', and I believe that is what upper management is expecting. I'd much rather give it to someone who wants it than give it to a scrapper... Let me know what you think. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Feb 4 12:36:10 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: Last Find Message-ID: <200002041737.SAA06038@mail2.siemens.de> Well, beside the anoying new headers there's still a CC-life (Ommmm :). As of my last stopover in the new world, I aquired a Tandy DT-1. Quite a cute pice of hardware. For the uninformed (as I have been until someone offered it to me via mail) it's basicly a Tandy Model III/IV case build as a Terminal. The Keyboard is a bit different labeled (of course), and the latch closing the empty FD slots is different than the one used on FD less M3/4 (suprise). Mine is working fine (except the A key), I just miss any kind of documentation at all. I'd apreciate any hint where to find more info or maybe manuals. A quick web search turned nothing up. Gruss H. A missing Reply-to header is a fool proof way to loose contact with your friends. From west at tseinc.com Fri Feb 4 12:46:37 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: test reply-to - please ignore Message-ID: <009c01bf6f40$2ad42700$d402a8c0@tse.com> testing the reply-to configuration. Please ignore From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Feb 4 13:43:37 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: <20000204194337.13601.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Feb 3, 22:53, Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > > > Sadly, the WD1770 fcd IC in my home-brew fd i/o board finally gave up the > > ghost. > The 1772 was designed to be a plug-in replacement. The main (only?) > difference is in the programmed step rates. I am looking at a WDC-1772. It has 28 pins. Doesn't the 1770 have 40 pins? > > Also, I understand that the C64 floppy drives (1581?) used the 1770 but > > I'm not a commie and can't immediately verify this. > > I'd be surprised if so. I thought all Commodore micros apart from their > ill-fated PCs used GCR. The standard 5.25" drives _do_ use GCR for all native formats, but the later stuff (1570/1571) also do MFM for CP/M compatibility. The aforementioned 1581 is a 3.5" device (~720K; the not-released 1591 was ~1.44Mb) and does have some form of MFM-capable chip, AFAIK. You can read 1581 disks in other machines, Linux included, I think. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From west at tseinc.com Fri Feb 4 13:54:36 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: test reply-to - please ignore References: <009c01bf6f40$2ad42700$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: <00ae01bf6f49$aa07d900$d402a8c0@tse.com> The is a reply to a new (OLD style) list traffic. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay West To: Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 12:46 PM Subject: test reply-to - please ignore > testing the reply-to configuration. Please ignore > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Feb 4 14:01:37 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <20000204200137.16295.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> In going through and sorting my piles of classic ICs, I ran across this Western Digital WD2793A chip. What is it? Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Feb 4 15:01:43 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: test reply-to - please ignore In-Reply-To: <00ae01bf6f49$aa07d900$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: <200002042002.VAA04452@mail2.siemens.de> > Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Thank you very much Jay Hans -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 4 14:18:26 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? References: <20000204200137.16295.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0002041518550F.00208@vault.neurotica.com> On Fri, 04 Feb 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: >In going through and sorting my piles of classic ICs, I ran across this Western >Digital WD2793A chip. What is it? I believe that's a floppy controller. Not a terribly ancient one, though.. -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 4 13:05:38 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: To anybody & everybody who needs to rebuild their Macintosh Portable batteries. Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 727 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000204/f44fe1f1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 4 13:15:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1621 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000204/513f97ba/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Feb 4 13:46:12 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? In-Reply-To: <20000204200137.16295.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:01:37 -0800 (PST)) References: <20000204200137.16295.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000204194612.22552.qmail@brouhaha.com> > In going through and sorting my piles of classic ICs, I ran across this > Western Digital WD2793A chip. What is it? It's a later replacement for the 1793 FDC. But not a drop-in replacement. It has an on-board analog data separator, while the 1793 required an external data separator. Some of the other 179x replacements had better digital data separators. I've personally always had good luck using the 179x with external SMC 9216 or 9229 data separators, which are probably hard to get by now. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 4 14:25:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed In-Reply-To: <20000204194337.13601.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 4, 0 11:43:37 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 972 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000204/1c7d09b1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 4 14:27:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? In-Reply-To: <20000204200137.16295.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 4, 0 12:01:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 446 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000204/f3c636e6/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Feb 4 14:34:31 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: WD1770 help needed" (Feb 4, 11:43) References: <20000204194337.13601.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10002042034.ZM6814@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 4, 11:43, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > > The 1772 was designed to be a plug-in replacement. The main (only?) > > difference is in the programmed step rates. > > I am looking at a WDC-1772. It has 28 pins. Doesn't the 1770 have 40 pins? No, you're thinking of a 1790. 1770 and 1772 are both 28-pin devices. There's also a 1772-2 which is just a mask revision of the 1772, and a 1772-2-2 which can run faster. Ataris sometimes have the latter. > The standard 5.25" drives _do_ use GCR for all native formats, but the later > stuff (1570/1571) also do MFM for CP/M compatibility. The aforementioned 1581 > is a 3.5" device (~720K; the not-released 1591 was ~1.44Mb) and does have some > form of MFM-capable chip, AFAIK. You can read 1581 disks in other machines, > Linux included, I think. I didn't know that. Did Commodore machines use a standard controller to write the MFM, or did they use the same techniques as for the GCR? I know Amigas can read/write DOS disks, but they don't have any sort of standard controller. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 4 14:40:29 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: A good way to find out what all those pesky IC's are Message-ID: <20000204204029.65397.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, I don't work for them or get any money for telling the list about it or anything like that, but I found http://www.icmaster.com and it works most of the time. It's best used to look up chips made by companies that are still in business, though. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Feb 4 14:38:52 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: test reply-to - please ignore References: <009c01bf6f40$2ad42700$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: <389B38DC.D4FA1133@idirect.com> >Jay West wrote: > testing the reply-to configuration. Please ignore Jerome Fine replies: This version works just like the old one - if that is your intent? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 4 14:46:19 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <000c01bf6f50$e8859a80$0400c0a8@winbook> That's correct, Eric, it's a direct replacement, functionally, for the 1793, with an analog clock extraction circuit. It has the limitation that the analog clock processing circuit requires a different lowpass filter for 8" and 5-1/4" drives, and, IIRC for FM or MFM. The 9216 and 9229 are external clock recovery circuits tailored for the 179x series, but can be replaced with a PAL. The 8-pin 9216 is pretty handy, but doesn't handle the write-precompensation which the 20-pin (?) 9229 does. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 1:46 PM Subject: Re: What's a WD2793A chip? >> In going through and sorting my piles of classic ICs, I ran across this >> Western Digital WD2793A chip. What is it? > >It's a later replacement for the 1793 FDC. But not a drop-in replacement. >It has an on-board analog data separator, while the 1793 required an external >data separator. > >Some of the other 179x replacements had better digital data separators. >I've personally always had good luck using the 179x with external >SMC 9216 or 9229 data separators, which are probably hard to get by now. From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Feb 4 14:53:58 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: Reply To: change Message-ID: Thank you Jay and Derek... it's my opinion that the List is better served by having the replies redirected back to itself. Now, about that HTML filter... Cheers John From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 4 14:58:51 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: <001101bf6f52$a4951ba0$0400c0a8@winbook> If you love your old drives, you'll operate the stepper at it's optimum rate, which should be essentially noise-free. If you can hear your drives, you need to tweak the step rate, usually upward. One alternative is to ad a mux or whatever to change the speed to the FDC when the step pulses are being transmitted, as nothing else is happening then. Many drives need rates somewhat faster than what the standard controller issues, hence, it's a good idea to consider a fix, involving clock selection via the to match the drive select. In the case of the 1771 and 179x series it's possible to build a really neat circuit I've seen but never tried to match, which uses the /TEST pin on the FDC to cause the device to put out its pulses much faster, allowing them to be accumulated externally in a counter, which, drives a DAC which drives a VCO, which drives the counter as it downcounts the number of steps, thereby slewing the head assembly. This could lead to an interesting but lengthy discussion. The point is that if you want your drives to suffer the least possible wear from off-rate stepping, you'll do SOMETHING to reduce vibration due to an incorrect step rate. The vibration is on the same axis as the eventual misalignment that will result. None of this applies to the 1770/1772, which have reasonbly fast but not fast enough step rates. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 1:41 PM Subject: WD1770 help needed >> Hello all >> >> Sadly, the WD1770 fcd IC in my home-brew fd i/o board finally gave up the >> ghost. Fourteen years of service is admirable -- when it finally croaked, I >> felt like weeping. >> >> Additionally, in violation of my policy of *always* keeping spares of >> discontinued components which I use -- I have no spare. >> >> Does anyone know of a source for these? Or the 1772 (I believe Tony Duell >> once mentioned that the 1772 could replace the 1770 in most cases -- but I >> could be wrong). > >The 1772 appears to be identical to the 1770 apart from the step rates it >uses. If your drives can take said higher rates, then the 1772 will work >in your controller. > >The 1772 (although not the 1770) was, I believe, second-sourced by VLSI >(the company that made most of the ARM chips), as it was used in Acorn >Archimedes machines. The 1770 was used in later version of the BBC micro. > >The 1772 (I think) was used in Atari STs. > >I am not suggesting you raid a working example of any of these machines >for the chip, but maybe somebody has a dead ST with a working 1772 or >something. > >> >> Also, I understand that the C64 floppy drives (1581?) used the 1770 but I'm >> not a commie and can't immediately verify this. Anyone out there with junk >> C64 drives who wants to liberate this IC -- to a good home?? >> > >The 1570 and 1571 (5.25" CBM drives that could read GDR and MFM disks) >have a 1770 in them. Older CBM drives (1541, PET 5.25" drives) do not. I >don't know about the 1581. > >Again, I'd not want to raid a working unit for the chip. But if you have >a broken drive, it's a possible source. > >-tony > From donm at cts.com Fri Feb 4 15:01:51 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: TRS Model 2/16 keyboard Message-ID: I have a chap who is trying to resurrect a Model 16 that is sans keyboard. Does anyone have one that they can spare? - don From aek at spies.com Fri Feb 4 15:33:01 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: <200002042133.NAA27309@spies.com> "In the case of the 1771 and 179x series it's possible to build a really neat circuit I've seen but never tried to match, which uses the /TEST pin on the FDC to cause the device to put out its pulses much faster, allowing them to be accumulated externally in a counter, which, drives a DAC which drives a VCO, which drives the counter as it downcounts the number of steps, thereby slewing the head assembly. This could lead to an interesting but lengthy discussion. " Sounds like an ideal candidate for reimplementation in a single chip microcontroller. From elvey at hal.com Fri Feb 4 15:49:40 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? In-Reply-To: <000c01bf6f50$e8859a80$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200002042149.NAA15717@civic.hal.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > That's correct, Eric, it's a direct replacement, functionally, for the 1793, > with an analog clock extraction circuit. It has the limitation that the > analog clock processing circuit requires a different lowpass filter for 8" > and 5-1/4" drives, and, IIRC for FM or MFM. Hi I have a iSBX card that I wrote a driver for that uses a 2793. It is software compatable with the 1793. It does 1.44M disk with the right clock. What I'd like to know is what are the software requirements for a 1781? Dwight From aek at spies.com Fri Feb 4 15:53:23 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: How many mistakes can YOU spot in this eBay ad? Message-ID: <200002042153.NAA28604@spies.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=253429580 Does anyone on the list even HAVE a working FPS-xxxx (any flavor) ? These have to be the white elephants of the 80's computing world. --al (who used an FPS-100 in the early 80's) From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Feb 4 16:01:32 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: C= disks (was Re: WD1770 help needed) Message-ID: <20000204220133.21065.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Feb 4, 11:43, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > The standard 5.25" drives _do_ use GCR for all native formats... > > I didn't know that. Did Commodore machines use a standard controller to > write the MFM, or did they use the same techniques as for the GCR? WD177x, AFAIK, in the 1570 (single-sided) and 1571 (double-sided) 5.25" disks and the 1581 (3.5") drive. > I know Amigas can read/write DOS disks, but they don't have any sort of > standard controller. Right. They can do MFM, GCR or whatever because the diskette interface is distributed amongst several custom chips including a 4096-bit shift register in the sound chip. The Amiga reads and writes an entire track at once and parses it in memory. The MFM stuff is efficient because it uses the masking logic of the graphic chip to convert MFM to binary and back. With a simple adapter, you can attach Macintosh drives to the Amiga and read/write _those_ as well (800K with a Mac drive, and 1.44Mb if your Amiga has a C= half-speed floppy drive). There is a read-only demo version of the Mac driver available, read-write is commercial software. There's even a floppy-based network for the Amiga, but it's around $100 per node. I was just at the web page for it this week. RG-58 cable, bus topology, and you can still have three floppy drives on the computer as well. It's great for those bitty-boxes that have no slots. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Feb 4 16:03:36 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: More C= disks (was Re: WD1770 help needed) Message-ID: <20000204220336.6239.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > This is not really an OS issue. The PC disk controller can do MFM (and > some versions can do FM) recording. In other words, if the 1581 uses MFM > recording then most likely a PC controller can read its disks. If it uses > GCR, then it can't _no matter what OS is in use_. I meant that ISTR there is a utility that understands the 1581 filesystem for Linux, as well as the hardware being able to read the raw format. Sorry for the ambiguity. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Feb 4 17:51:44 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000203193612.02ffbe40@ferrari.sfu.ca> <200002031631.LAA09423@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000204185144.3cef289c@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:49 PM 2/3/00 -0800, Mike F. wrote: >At 7:36 PM -0800 2/3/00, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: >>I too vote against embedded HTML in email. Give me the content, the fancy >>formatting is superfluous. > >The only problem being that most of the people who post HTML have no clue >they are doing it. In other words, typical WinDozes users! They'll learn real quick if we all bounce their messages back to them! Joe > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Feb 4 17:59:52 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: Info needed: Eagle AVL S-100 computer Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000204185952.3cef318e@mailhost.intellistar.net> HI, I found one of these today. I also found the keyboard, external floppy drive and monitor for. The "monitor" looks like it started life as a 8" security monitor. But I have to say that this is the first monitor that I've ever seen that was connected with a coaxial cable with N-connectors! It looks like this computer was designed to control an audio visual system. Can anyone tell me about the computer? I'm wondering if it's usefull for a general purpose S-100 computer. All the cards in it including the back plane are marked "AV". There are warranty stickers in it dated 1978 and it has an 8080 CPU. Does anyone have docs and software for it? Joe From west at tseinc.com Fri Feb 4 17:01:42 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST Message-ID: <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> Hokay... In my own opinion, most of the comments on the list about the reply-to function preferred the "old" method. A fair number of the people who preferred the "new" method have since publicly changed their mind. As a result, the list now has the reply address set to the list which is how it used to be before the move. I'd be happy to take any criticism for my handling of the situation: send those emails to dev-null@tseinc.com For the non-unix non-sendmail oriented on the list, that's a joke, don't bother sending. Now that the major issue appears to be resolved, I'm taking requests on any other list behaviour that people don't like. I don't promise to implement all of them, but I'll gladly take a look at it. Quite a few people sent me... er.... "suggestions", but because of all the flurry of activity related to the "reply-to" dilemma I didn't do a good job of tracking those other requests. Here's what I can remember: 1) verify that digests are being built 2) check if the digests are sent automagically or does the list owner have to "goose" them out 3) if they can be done automagically, get input from the digest users as to how often they want them sent 4) Verify that digest people are on the digest list, not the non-digest list 5) See if users can be allowed to send to the list without getting daily traffic If you have anything to add to the above, please DO send in the request to west@tseinc.com Regards, Jay West From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 4 17:59:29 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:43 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <001501bf6f6b$e24f60e0$0400c0a8@winbook> A 1781? !!GAWD!! I've not seen even an oblique reference to that number since back in the '70's. Wasn't that the one that died with MMFM? I don't believe I ever saw one in the "flesh." Nevertheless, the difference between it and any other member of the WD 8"-drive-capable controller line is probably pretty minor. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 3:09 PM Subject: Re[2]: What's a WD2793A chip? >"Richard Erlacher" wrote: >> That's correct, Eric, it's a direct replacement, functionally, for the 1793, >> with an analog clock extraction circuit. It has the limitation that the >> analog clock processing circuit requires a different lowpass filter for 8" >> and 5-1/4" drives, and, IIRC for FM or MFM. > >Hi > I have a iSBX card that I wrote a driver for that uses a >2793. It is software compatable with the 1793. It does >1.44M disk with the right clock. What I'd like to >know is what are the software requirements for a 1781? >Dwight > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Feb 4 17:44:14 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? In-Reply-To: <000c01bf6f50$e8859a80$0400c0a8@winbook> (edick@idcomm.com) References: <000c01bf6f50$e8859a80$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000204234414.24029.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > The 9216 and 9229 are external clock recovery circuits tailored for the 179x > series, but can be replaced with a PAL. The 8-pin 9216 is pretty handy, but > doesn't handle the write-precompensation which the 20-pin (?) 9229 does. I've often thought that a PAL or small CPLD would do the job. Has anyone written the appropriate state machine or equations? From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 4 18:33:34 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: How many mistakes can YOU spot in this eBay ad? In-Reply-To: <200002042153.NAA28604@spies.com> from "Al Kossow" at Feb 04, 2000 01:53:23 PM Message-ID: <200002050033.QAA02814@shell1.aracnet.com> > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=253429580 > > Does anyone on the list even HAVE a working FPS-xxxx (any flavor) ? > These have to be the white elephants of the 80's computing world. > > --al (who used an FPS-100 in the early 80's) > Oh, one BLINDING error. Wouldn't that hook up to a VAX? I passed on one about a year ago, and a lot of parts. Though I might have gotten some software for it in the mess of DEC stuff that I did get. Zane From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 4 18:54:09 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: Macintosh Portable battery rebild follow-up. Message-ID: <20000205005409.85907.qmail@hotmail.com> This posting is a follow up to my Mac Portable battery post: The cost of the individual 2V 5.0 Ah "Cyclon" size "X" is $7.25 (USD). The total for 3 is $25 (USD), not including s&h charges. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Feb 4 18:57:34 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <200002050057.TAA13841@world.std.com> "In the case of the 1771 and 179x series it's possible to build a really ne drive and monitor for. The "monitor" looks like it started life as a 8" "I've often thought that a PAL or small CPLD would do the job. Has anyone written the appropriate state machine or equations? " >From memory, didn't the Furgusson 'big board' use a digital data separator that was a bipolar prom state machine? I know I've seen this same design in several late 70's floppy controller boards (maybe it was even in the WDC data sheets) From aek at spies.com Fri Feb 4 19:06:08 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: How many mistakes can YOU spot in this eBay ad? Message-ID: <200002050106.RAA06698@spies.com> "Oh, one BLINDING error. Wouldn't that hook up to a VAX? I passed on one about a year ago, and a lot of parts. Though I might have gotten some software for it in the mess of DEC stuff that I did get. " ..or a Unibus PDP-11. What kind was it? I have some docs on the FPS-100. I keep meaning to stop over at the Physiology Department of the Medical College of Wisconsin to find out what ever happened to that 11/44 and FPS-100 that I used to take care of.. From elvey at hal.com Fri Feb 4 19:09:44 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? In-Reply-To: <200002050057.TAA13841@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200002050109.RAA18261@civic.hal.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > Take a 1793 and put some of the stuff needed to make it useful on the die, > call it 2793. Basically it's a 1793 with data sep and precomp logic built > on. Hi Anyhow, if anyone wants the schematic for the iSBX card I have with the 2793, I can trace it out for someone. Just let me know. It has all of about 4 chips. Dwight From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Feb 4 19:29:58 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST In-Reply-To: "Jay West" "Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST" (Feb 4, 17:01) References: <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 4, 17:01, Jay West wrote: > Now that the major issue appears to be resolved, I'm taking requests on > any other list behaviour that people don't like. I don't promise to > implement all of them, but I'll gladly take a look at it. My request-for-enhancement is: "do something" about HTML, or better still, "do something" about any "multipart/alternative" posting (which would include M$ richtext, with those application/ms-tnef attachments). Options I can think of: a) silently discard any such postings (probably not a good idea) b) bounce them back to the author, with an explanation of why bounced c) remove the non-text part d) combination of (b) and (c) e) accept, but warn the author (who may not realise (s)he's sent HTML) All of these would involve scanning the content to a greater or lesser extent. I've no idea how doable that would be with majordomo, whether the extra processing is acceptable to the server, or whether Jay has the time to do that. Just for information, some of these policies are implemented on our helpdesk at work, which automatically tracks, redirects, and archives user support enquiries. We implement (e) on the first "offence", and (b) thereafter, but since every incoming email is read by a human, we do it by paw and memory, and occasionally discretion (ie we tend to discard fewer mails from professors than students :-)). We also have a policy of discarding attachments (or indeed any message) by simple automated truncation at the 10-kilobyte mark (mainly to prevent filling mailboxes and archives with "why doesn't this 4Mb PostScript/JPEG/Word document print?"). I think the record idiocy was a 63MB Word document ("I can't send this document to my friend. Why?") -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From generic3 at home.com Fri Feb 4 20:07:58 2000 From: generic3 at home.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: Ambra Laptop - hard drive In-Reply-To: <35.e3f778.25cba740@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000204210647.00999d80@popmail.voicenet.com> I have an Ambra Laptop with a dead hard drive. Does anyone know what I need for a replacement and where to get it. ------------------------------------------------------ On-Line Computer & Video Game Garage Sale http://www.voicenet.com/~generic gene@ehrich.com generic3@home.com Gene Ehrich From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Feb 4 20:04:48 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST In-Reply-To: <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> (pete@dunnington.u-net.com) References: <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20000205020448.24621.qmail@brouhaha.com> Pete Turnbull writes: > Options I can think of: > > a) silently discard any such postings (probably not a good idea) > b) bounce them back to the author, with an explanation of why bounced > c) remove the non-text part > d) combination of (b) and (c) > e) accept, but warn the author (who may not realise (s)he's sent HTML) > > All of these would involve scanning the content to a greater or lesser > extent. For options a and b, only the header needs to be examined. If there is a Content-Type header that specifies anything other than text/plain, or if there is a Content-Transfer-Encoding other than 7bit (or perhaps quoted-printable, although that generally sucks also), the message should be discarded or bounced. In particular, this would discard or bounce any messages whose Content-Type is multipart/mixed. If people want to supply files to the list, it should be done by providing a URL, or by private email. No attachments should be sent to the list. IMNSHO. :-) From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 4 21:08:28 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: <003a01bf6f86$476d27e0$0400c0a8@winbook> It could be a microcontroller project, but it's easy enough if you use a relatively small CPLD. What's critical is that you need a VCO or some digital analog to it which causes the counters to run more quickly while the beginning track to ending track difference is large and ramps up slower than it ramps down. I'd not depend on that, since each drive will be different. It's best done, IMHO, if one uses a drive-resident circuit with slew rates tuned to the individual drive. Thos of us who can't remanufacture our drives NEED this in order to make our 8" drives stay well. I microcontroller could handle the job fine if it just could be adjusted with a pot rather than having to have parameters experimentally determined and then fit via cut-and-try. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 2:51 PM Subject: Re: WD1770 help needed >"In the case of the 1771 and 179x series it's possible to build a really neat >circuit I've seen but never tried to match, which uses the /TEST pin on the >FDC to cause the device to put out its pulses much faster, allowing them to >be accumulated externally in a counter, which, drives a DAC which drives a >VCO, which drives the counter as it downcounts the number of steps, thereby >slewing the head assembly. This could lead to an interesting but lengthy >discussion. >" > >Sounds like an ideal candidate for reimplementation in a single chip >microcontroller. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 4 21:09:03 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: <003b01bf6f86$5c051140$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, I've considered that, but . . . there's a delay involved that wouldn't work with WD's chips unless you accumulate the pulses and disable ready. Then mask the delays by extending the head-load delay. Remember, every drive is different. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 6:12 PM Subject: Re: WD1770 help needed >"In the case of the 1771 and 179x series it's possible to build a really ne >< > >Did that many years ago using 8748, worked very good too as I could count >the pulses then issue them out as a ramped rate so that the head was >accelerated and decelerated to the track. Didn't make any difference for >a few track move. Head movement that was about 15 tracks or more it was >very noticeable. CP/M does a lot of seek to the directory track (usually >track one or two) every time it writes an extent or closes/opens a file so >decreases in seek time payed nicely. > >Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 4 21:16:24 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <004401bf6f87$62d72c00$0400c0a8@winbook> The Feruson BIg Board ( of which I have a bunch) was single-density only, for which clock extraction was dirt simple. MFM requires a gentler hand. It was, as you suggest, straight from the WD App Notes. The Big Board-II used the 9216. Back in those days, there was a big fight between the analog guys and the digit-heads, and it didn't help a thing. It got me paid for designs that were never implemented on more than one occasion, even though my meticulously designed and carefully stolen and tested, then improved digital separators worked much faster and better than the analog ones. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 6:18 PM Subject: Re: What's a WD2793A chip? >"I've often thought that a PAL or small CPLD would do the job. Has anyone >written the appropriate state machine or equations? >" > >From memory, didn't the Furgusson 'big board' use a digital data separator >that was a bipolar prom state machine? I know I've seen this same design in >several late 70's floppy controller boards (maybe it was even in the WDC >data sheets) From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 4 21:22:11 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <004c01bf6f88$317bde20$0400c0a8@winbook> Be careful what you assume about this chip. As I wrote before, the external lowpass filter is different for different data rates, so if you want to use both 5-1/4" and 8" drives, (and the 3-1/2" ones that look like 8") then you need two lowpass filters. These can be hooked up very simply today as there are analog multiplexors with on the order of 1 ohm of on-resistance, though back then it was necessary to use relatively costly low-on-resistance D-mos switches. I very much prefer the digital approach, which, then, was the only real alternative. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 6:23 PM Subject: Re: What's a WD2793A chip? >Allison J Parent wrote: >> >> > > >> Take a 1793 and put some of the stuff needed to make it useful on the die, >> call it 2793. Basically it's a 1793 with data sep and precomp logic built >> on. > >Hi > Anyhow, if anyone wants the schematic for the iSBX card >I have with the 2793, I can trace it out for someone. >Just let me know. It has all of about 4 chips. >Dwight > From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Feb 4 21:57:32 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: HTML in Email Message-ID: In a message dated 02/03/2000 10:47:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, mcquiggi@sfu.ca writes: > I too vote against embedded HTML in email. Give me the content, the fancy > formatting is superfluous. I second the motion. Most usenet groups will savagely attack anyone posting binaries or html, and so it should be, here. If God had meant for us to read html, we would be born with browsers built-in. Glen 0/0 From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Feb 4 22:41:33 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: In a message dated 02/04/2000 3:02:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, ethan_dicks@yahoo.com writes: > I am looking at a WDC-1772. It has 28 pins. Doesn't the 1770 have 40 pins? I am looking at a (dead) WD1770 and it's a 28 pin DIP. Glen 0/0 From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Feb 4 22:48:39 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: <13.fed63b.25cd05a7@aol.com> In a message dated 02/04/2000 3:34:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > The 1772 appears to be identical to the 1770 apart from the step rates it > uses. If your drives can take said higher rates, then the 1772 will work > in your controller. Thanks for the information, Tony. Upgrading the drives is not a problem since I have access to many types of drives. In fact, I recently had some trouble finding a drive *ancient* enough to work with the 1770 i/f. Glen 0/0 From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Fri Feb 4 15:58:02 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: <200001262244218.SM00188@kernst> Message-ID: <02e001bf6f97$080d56e0$2ee993c3@proteus> Hi Kevin, >....I picked up a lot of cool stuff, but the real prize was an >HP model 45851A (I think) 'Touchscreen II,' a.k.a HP 150C. Nice find. >....But I don't think anyone in the company still has the disk >media. I can't imagine there being any other options besides >the HP version of MS-DOS that it shipped with.... I can send you a Teledisk image of the DOS disc if you need one. Other than that I have no software for the machine. Hardware options included several different RAM boards, one with built in HP-IL interface, various floppy/hard drive units and the touch screen itself (I've NEVER seen a machine with the touch screen BTW). Do you have some form of drive unit for the machine? Without one all you have is a dumb terminal.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 5 00:34:13 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed In-Reply-To: <13.fed63b.25cd05a7@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000205013413.307fbb02@mailhost.intellistar.net> Glen, At 11:48 PM 2/4/00 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 02/04/2000 3:34:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, >ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > >> The 1772 appears to be identical to the 1770 apart from the step rates it >> uses. If your drives can take said higher rates, then the 1772 will work >> in your controller. > >Thanks for the information, Tony. Upgrading the drives is not a problem >since I have access to many types of drives. In fact, I recently had some >trouble finding a drive *ancient* enough to work with the 1770 i/f. What kind of "ancient" drives are you looking for? I scrounge up old drives all the time. I found nine hh Mitsubishi 8" floppy drives a few weeks ago and an 8" Quantum hard drive last week. I found a power supply and the connectors for a pair of 8" floppy drives today. Joe > >Glen >0/0 > From whdawson at mlynk.com Sat Feb 5 00:04:49 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? Message-ID: <000c01bf6f9e$e9220520$a8e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Does anyone have any information on this item, a "Prometrix Omnimap 11" in what looks to be a VT-100 case? It's currently for sale on eBay, item 246642084. What was this used for? What OS or Application does it run? Is software available out there from anyone on this list? Was this equipment made entirely by DEC, or does it have modifications made by a reseller? What is this thing really worth? I know, lots of questions! Any answers? Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 00:45:14 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000204222906.01ba1460@mcmanis.com> I have a very perplexing problem. What I want to do is mount a Seagate ST410800N on a VMS 5.4-1 system. The hardware is a VAX 4000/300 with an Emulex UC-08-III controller half of which is in MSCP mode. (the other half is talking to the tape drive) There are two existing 1GB (Imprimis) drives on this system. First attempt: Put the drive into the SCSI chain, terminate it correctly, drives are targets 0, 1, and 2. The new drive is now target 0, the others are moved to 1 and 2. I reset the VAX and get into the Emulex firmware (rev 'M' (changed to 'R' later, see below)) and try to autoconfigure the drives. The two 1GB drives show up like they should, the 9GB drive shows up as a 500MB drive. Weird. Second attempt: Replace the firmware in the Emulex with version 'R'. Attempt to reconfigure, same problem as #1. Third attempt: Attempt to manually specify the geometry and notice that the Seagate is reporting it has 4925 cylinders but the prompt says the number has to be between 20 and 4095. I enter a number smaller than 4095 and say 'OK'. Now the drive shows up as having 14x10E6 blocks! Ok so now we're getting somewhere but I forgot to configure the other two. Fourth Attempt: Recompute "Fake" heads/sectors numbers so that by using 4094 cylinders I get close to the drives 17,845,431 blocks. Configure the two 1GB drives with all the defaults. Seagate drive shows up as a 1/2 G drive again. On a whim I subtract the number of blocks shown from what it should be, the result is in the 16x10E6 range, aha! I say. Fifth Attempt: Recompute cylinder/sector/head numbers so that the total will be less than 2^24-1 blocks. This works and I end up with a controller that thinks the drive is about 8GB in size (I could live with this for now...). So we go all the way up to VMS. In VMS I type 'INIT DUA0: TEST' and it fails with "%INIT-F-CLUSTER unsuitable cluster factor", I drill down through the help files but there doesn't seem to be a comment on this. It talks about VAX clusters and CLUSTER_SIZE which I tried setting to higher numbers (like 10 or 16). But nothing has worked so far. My questions then are: 1) Is there a way to get the Emulex controller to recognize more that 2^24 blocks on a SCSI drive? 2) Does VMS have a volume size limit in 5.4-1 that I need to know about? 3) If I "split" the volume on the Emulex into two logical drives, can the sum of the logical drive sizes be greater than 8GB? Curious minds want to know! --Chuck (Who is enjoying VMS for the time being ... ;-)) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 00:56:18 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? In-Reply-To: <000c01bf6f9e$e9220520$a8e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000204225355.01af58f0@mcmanis.com> It is the LSI-11 built into a VT100 thingy (a PDT-11?) The cards are from left to right: LSI=11/03 processor, RQDXn disk controller, Memory (looks like an M8044), serial port, and RX01 floppy controller. A cute system and well worth the dollar that is currently bid :-) --Chuck At 01:04 AM 2/5/00 -0500, you wrote: >Does anyone have any information on this item, a "Prometrix Omnimap 11" in >what looks to be a VT-100 case? It's currently for sale on eBay, item >246642084. What was this used for? What OS or Application does it run? Is >software available out there from anyone on this list? Was this equipment >made entirely by DEC, or does it have modifications made by a reseller? >What is this thing really worth? I know, lots of questions! Any answers? > >Bill > >whdawson@mlynk.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 5 01:45:08 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000204225355.01af58f0@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Feb 04, 2000 10:56:18 PM Message-ID: <200002050745.XAA11305@shell1.aracnet.com> > It is the LSI-11 built into a VT100 thingy (a PDT-11?) The cards are from > left to right: > LSI=11/03 processor, RQDXn disk controller, Memory (looks like an M8044), > serial port, and RX01 floppy controller. A cute system and well worth the > dollar that is currently bid :-) > --Chuck I think you me a VT103. I've got a system that looks close to this in my collection although it was turned into a plain VT100 prior to my getting it. I've got the parts though and plan to one day get it put all back together. The neat thing about the one on eBay is the disk box. Wondering just what exactly all those cards are though... Zane From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Feb 5 01:16:33 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000204185144.3cef289c@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.32.20000203193612.02ffbe40@ferrari.sfu.ca> <200002031631.LAA09423@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >>>I too vote against embedded HTML in email. Give me the content, the fancy >>>formatting is superfluous. >> >>The only problem being that most of the people who post HTML have no clue >>they are doing it. > > In other words, typical WinDozes users! They'll learn real quick if we Dozers are the ElItE, worry about @aol and @webtv or whatever it is. OTOH I would not be willing to bet that some user on this list hasn't entered a message via toggle switches in octal. ;) They are just the ones to use HTML to prove a point. Actually it sounds a bit easier than the method Allison is using now. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Feb 5 02:18:11 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? Message-ID: <20000205081811.15362.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck McManis wrote: > It is the LSI-11 built into a VT100 thingy (a PDT-11?) The cards are from > left to right: > LSI=11/03 processor, RQDXn disk controller, Memory (looks like an M8044), > serial port, and RX01 floppy controller. A cute system and well worth the > dollar that is currently bid :-) > --Chuck I see that you're the high bidder, or I'd probably bid on it myself (that, and I already have a VT103 and boxes of Qbus cards). What _I_ see there in the ad is an 11/23 CPU (KDF-11), some third party (floppy) controller (white handle - the RQDX3 has a 50-pin connector in the middle of a red handle; the RQDX1 and RQDX2 are quad-width), memory (perhaps an M8044, as you say), an IVB11 (IEEE-488) and a DJV11-J 4-port SIO card. Pretty standard stuff. Good luck on the box. I hope you get it. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Feb 5 02:23:52 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: PDP-11 sighting - "Sliders" pilot Message-ID: <20000205082352.8353.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, all, I happened to be watching the Sci Fi Channel tonight and caught the re- broadcast of the first "Sliders" episode. Quinn has a PDP-11 in his basement in San Francisco. It's blurry most of the time, but when he opens a worm hole for Wade and Prof. Arturo, the distortion effect brings the rack into visible clarity - it appears to be an RX01 or RX02 at the top of the rack, over a BA-11N box, CPU unknown. I'm not sure, but underneath the BA-11N, the narrow black vertical panels appear similar to the filler plates on a MINC-11 system, but that part of the rack wasn't shown as clearly. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From spc at armigeron.com Sat Feb 5 02:41:07 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Feb 04, 2000 11:16:33 PM Message-ID: <200002050841.DAA11126@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Mike Ford once stated: > > OTOH I would not be willing to bet that some user on this list hasn't > entered a message via toggle switches in octal. ;) They are just the ones > to use HTML to prove a point. Actually it sounds a bit easier than the > method Allison is using now. Actually, this isn't the first time this topic has come up on this list. The last time was .. wow! January of 1999 (hmmmm ... seasonal topic?). And last time, Chuck McManis wanted HTML: > Sheesh. Plain text really sucks. Y'all prefer that someone type _like this_ > to indicate a piece of underlined text? or my habit *bolding* with > asterisks? This message "encoded" with HTML is roughly 5% larger than it is > in plain text. Wow, now that's a waste of resources. I responded in kind (and also in Postscript, morse code, and uuencoded DVI). -spc (I wonder what complaints about email we'll be bitching, uh, discussing, next year?) From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Feb 5 03:12:53 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: Info needed: Eagle AVL S-100 computer Message-ID: <2b.17638f7.25cd4395@aol.com> Joe; I would ignore the AVL. Does anyone know if Eagle made a S100 computer? My bet is the computer is a generic S100 used to run multiple serial ports. However they could be custom controllers. AVL makes slide projector controllers for large slide shows. This sounds like a very early controller. What are the outputs on the AV cards? Could they conceivably drive Kodak Ektamatic or Carousel slide projectors? Slide projectors use 2, 5 or 7 wire/pin connectors. Some AVLs will control up to 12 slide projectors, usually in multiple of 3s (i.e., 3, 6, 9 or 12 projectors). Two of the wires control the power up and down on the light bulbs. If they did this directly there would have to be some serious power dissipation. AVL was an early adopter of computers. If I remember right Eagle made S100 computers before their crossover clones. This is my guess. Paxton From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Feb 5 03:27:24 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: WTB: Multibus Cisco Ethernet cards Message-ID: <20000205092724.8531.qmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> If they aren't classic, they soon will be. I've got this ancient Cisco AGS+ router (68040-based) with Multibus and some kind of Cisco-proprietary slots inside. I have a quad V.35 card (useless to me because of the 26-pin high- density D-shell connectors and no cables). What I need is at least a dual Ethernet card. Whenever I ask my friends in networking, they always tell me the same story, "Oh, yeah. We used to have some of those, but we threw all that stuff out X months ago." So if all these folks have been throwing this sort of stuff out, I figure that *someone* on this list has seen the occasional item float by. Any and all leads are appreciated. I'm willing to pay in excess of 1.2 * shipping, but the sky is not the limit. Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Feb 5 03:56:54 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: PDP-11 sighting - "Sliders" pilot Message-ID: <000205045654.25600ae9@trailing-edge.com> >I happened to be watching the Sci Fi Channel tonight and caught the re- >broadcast of the first "Sliders" episode. Quinn has a PDP-11 in his >basement in San Francisco. If I had to be able to interface to computers both 30 years in the past *and* 30 years in the future, I'd be sure to use my PDP-11 too :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Feb 5 07:29:33 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: PDP-11 sighting - "Sliders" pilot In-Reply-To: <000205045654.25600ae9@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <13521272749.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [PDP-11s interface to anything?] Didn't get get called "the fastest UART in the west?" Or was that PDP-8s? ------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 5 07:09:52 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: WTB: Multibus Cisco Ethernet cards References: <20000205092724.8531.qmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00020508332402.00857@vault.neurotica.com> On Sat, 05 Feb 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: >If they aren't classic, they soon will be. I've got this ancient Cisco AGS+ >router (68040-based) with Multibus and some kind of Cisco-proprietary slots >inside. I have a quad V.35 card (useless to me because of the 26-pin high- >density D-shell connectors and no cables). What I need is at least a dual >Ethernet card. Whenever I ask my friends in networking, they always tell me >the same story, "Oh, yeah. We used to have some of those, but we threw all >that stuff out X months ago." > >So if all these folks have been throwing this sort of stuff out, I figure that >*someone* on this list has seen the occasional item float by. Any and all >leads are appreciated. I'm willing to pay in excess of 1.2 * shipping, but >the sky is not the limit. You know...strangely enough, that line of router hardware has pretty much been "artificially" obsoleted by cisco. I mean, not that such practices are all that unusual (the ss5/170 was discontinued how many months after it had been put into production? like four?) but despite their archaic physical appearance, the AGS+ is only now getting a bit "old" by today's [non-PC] standards. It's the immediate predecessor of the 7000, and is a good deal faster than the 7000 as well, assuming it's a later CSC4-equipped box..which is why cisco wants all the AGSs to go away so badly. There are still a good number of AGS+ routers in racks at peering points all over the world terminating big pipes, and that won't be changing anytime soon. Why? They work, and they seldom fail. The attitudes there are affected a little more by the telco industry and a little less by the PC industry. But in spite of that, I'm sure you'll get your hands on one from someone a little *more* affected (INfected?) by the PC industry, and win bigtime. I sure did! :-) There's a fellow I know in Sweden who does 64mb mods and clock speedup hacks on CSC4 boards regularly for those who don't feel like paying cisco's blood money for $60,000 monsters like the 75xx...'cause just about the only thing the AGS+ can't terminate is an OCn circuit. The last release of IOS that'll run on it is 11.1, more than modern enough for all but the most whiz-bang of routing "features". No krb5 in 11.1 though, bummer. So anyway, to my point...You should be able to get your hands on an AGS+ for a few hundred bucks anytime, if you don't want to wait for one to come down the pike. People rarely "throw them out" because cisco is (or at least was, it's been a year or so since I talked to anyone about it) vacuuming them up extremely thoroughly to keep people from (gasp!) using them. A friend of mine squeaked a handful of brand-new CSC4 boards out of cisco a while back...said they're kept under lock and key! I can just picture the cisco salesdroid..."hey, I'll give you 42% if you tell all your friends that you threw this in the trash...deal?" Anyway, sorry for being so long-winded this morning. I just woke up. Happy AGS hacking; they're really cool boxes! If you need images or stuff like that let me know. Oh yeah, and stay away from any processor board that's pre-CSC4. -Dave McGuire From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 5 08:41:23 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <02e001bf6f97$080d56e0$2ee993c3@proteus> References: <200001262244218.SM00188@kernst> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I have a bunch of programs for the HP 150 including several versions of MS_DOS. As you've probably figured out by now, the 150s aren't entirely IBM compatible. The programs for it should use only DOS calls, if they access the hardware directly then they have to modified to work with the 150. If your machine is a box with squared corners and the expansion cards are mounted vertical behind the monitor then it's a TouchScreen II. If the machine has nice rounded edges and the expansion cards are horizontal in the bottom then it's the original HP 150. The TS II has a 5 pin DIN connector in the back. That's used to provide power for a HP 9123 disk drive. The 150 and TS II can both use the HP 9121 and 9122 3.5" floppy disk drives. The 9121 is a single sided drive and the 9122 is a double sided drive. Both drives are AC powered. The HP 9123 drive is exactly the same as the 9122 except that it has no power supply and gets it's power from the TS II. You can connect it to an external power supply and use it on a 150 or any other HP machine that supports the 9122. The S verion of the drives only have a single drive but the D verson of the drives have dual drives. FWIW there is also a HP 9122C but it's scarce. The C is a quad density drive and is not compatible with the other 9122s. I don't think the 150 or TS-11 supports the 9122C. The Touch Screen feature is standard on the 150 but optional on the TS-II. Strange! I've never seen a Touch Screen on a TS-II. I don't think many buyers added it. Let me know if you have any specific questions. Joe At 09:58 PM 2/4/00 -0000, you wrote: >Hi Kevin, > > >....I picked up a lot of cool stuff, but the real prize was an > >HP model 45851A (I think) 'Touchscreen II,' a.k.a HP 150C. > >Nice find. > > > >....But I don't think anyone in the company still has the disk > >media. I can't imagine there being any other options besides > >the HP version of MS-DOS that it shipped with.... > >I can send you a Teledisk image of the DOS disc if you need one. Other than >that I have no software for the machine. > >Hardware options included several different RAM boards, one with built in >HP-IL interface, various floppy/hard drive units and the touch screen itself >(I've NEVER seen a machine with the touch screen BTW). > >Do you have some form of drive unit for the machine? Without one all you >have is a dumb terminal.... > > > TTFN - Pete. > >-- >Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. >Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > >peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk >-- > > > From lsommo at hotmail.com Sat Feb 5 09:30:34 2000 From: lsommo at hotmail.com (No Name) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <20000205153105.39042.qmail@hotmail.com> Wasn't there an add-on developed for the Xerox 820/ Big Board that used the 2793? As I recall it was a a simpler (and less expensive) circuit as compared to the other add-on being offered at the time. I had one and lost it (as well as my 256K memory expansion board) during the course of my moves. If anyone has the schematics for it I'd like to try and put another one together. Lou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/babb7f39/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Sat Feb 5 09:46:55 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <001001bf6ff0$3bab9d00$0400c0a8@winbook> There may well have been one of these. I've got a one or two of the ones a Denver company made for the Xerox 820 to insert a 1791/95 in place of the 1771. I even have the writeup somewhere, but no software patches. It just seems that I never have both the mezzanine board and the doc at the same time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: No Name To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, February 05, 2000 8:49 AM Subject: Re: What's a WD2793A chip? Wasn't there an add-on developed for the Xerox 820/ Big Board that used the 2793? As I recall it was a a simpler (and less expensive) circuit as compared to the other add-on being offered at the time. I had one and lost it (as well as my 256K memory expansion board) during the course of my moves. If anyone has the schematics for it I'd like to try and put another one together. Lou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/92ba94c9/attachment.html From emu at ecubics.com Sat Feb 5 10:09:32 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST References: <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <011701bf6ff3$d27ac320$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 18:29 Subject: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST > My request-for-enhancement is: > > "do something" about HTML, or better still, "do something" about > any "multipart/alternative" posting (which would include M$ > richtext, with those application/ms-tnef attachments). > > Options I can think of: > > a) silently discard any such postings (probably not a good idea) > b) bounce them back to the author, with an explanation of why bounced > c) remove the non-text part > d) combination of (b) and (c) > e) accept, but warn the author (who may not realise (s)he's sent HTML) I like b) most. This sending of HTML, happens mostly to new members, (or to "old" users, which got a browser "update" ;-)) so they can see immediatly whats wrong, and we don't even see this email, so no reason for a new discussion about it AGAIN. ;-) just my $ .02 cheers, emanuel From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Feb 5 10:18:37 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: FW: SURPLUS MINI COMPUTER (Perkin Elmer) Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000205081837.00b5e0a4@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: The new list seems to be working fine. Here's a message from a friend in the City of Vancouver. If you're interested, please contact Jim directly. There's a URL with more details. Kevin >Return-Path: >From: Jim Lloyd >To: "McQuiggin, Kevin" >Subject: SURPLUS MINI COMPUTER >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:47:09 -0800 > >Kevin, you had mentioned that you may have some intersted parties in the >attached machine. Here are some of the details. It is advertised on our web >site at www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/bid/SPS_00010.htm > >Thanks > > >"The City of Vancouver (Canada) has a Perkin Elmer mini computer for sale >that will be available for removal in approximately June 2000. This computer >will be in service until that date and has been used for operation of the >City+s Traffic Signal Management System. > > >Details: >Model 3210 CPU >2MB RAM >Model CDC50 - 50MB disc subsystem (two discs - one fixed, one removable) >Model 1175A tape subsystem (two drives - one 800 bpi, one 1600 bpi) 75inches >per second >75 CCU Winkomatic Modems with possible spares >10 Multiplexer cards (for modems) >Software not included" ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Feb 5 10:34:37 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: PDP-11 sighting - "Sliders" pilot In-Reply-To: <20000205082352.8353.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000205083437.00b63f98@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: Vancouver is a popular venue for TV and movie filmmaking. I've spoken to prop folks locally and volunteered any of my systems should they have a show or movie that needs "old computers with spinning tapes and blinking lights". No bites (bytes) yet, but it would be neat to get one of my systems into a movie. I also have about 20 old radios from the 1920s-30s and have offered them for props as well. I'd suggest that others in movie-friendly locales also volunteer, it's a way of popularizing our hobby! Kevin At 12:23 AM 2/5/00 -0800, you wrote: > >Hi, all, > >I happened to be watching the Sci Fi Channel tonight and caught the re- >broadcast of the first "Sliders" episode. Quinn has a PDP-11 in his >basement in San Francisco. It's blurry most of the time, but when he >opens a worm hole for Wade and Prof. Arturo, the distortion effect brings >the rack into visible clarity - it appears to be an RX01 or RX02 at the top >of the rack, over a BA-11N box, CPU unknown. I'm not sure, but underneath >the BA-11N, the narrow black vertical panels appear similar to the filler >plates on a MINC-11 system, but that part of the rack wasn't shown as clearly. > >-ethan > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > > ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Feb 5 10:36:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:44 2005 Subject: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? Message-ID: <200002051636.LAA28930@world.std.com> > method Allison is using now. Well... the telnet link makes me think the SR on a pretty 11/70 as faster way to do it. The local at home stuff is rather odd but actually very efficient as it's edit/compose/reply is all done off line then you deliver (also fetches then). It has many things going for it, one it leaves nothing on the ISP, the connect time is minimal, all headers are visible, being slightly brain dead all worms/viri/trojans _can_ be sent through it safely and files TEXT or UUE greater than 50k are saved to disk and the first 1024 chars displayed. the interface is windows/3.1 so it isn't that bad. <> Sheesh. Plain text really sucks. Y'all prefer that someone type _like thi <> to indicate a piece of underlined text? or my habit *bolding* with <> asterisks? This message "encoded" with HTML is roughly 5% larger than it <> in plain text. Wow, now that's a waste of resources. < < I responded in kind (and also in Postscript, morse code, and uuencoded ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 11:16:33PM -0800 References: <3.0.1.32.20000203193612.02ffbe40@ferrari.sfu.ca> <200002031631.LAA09423@dbit.dbit.com> <3.0.1.16.20000204185144.3cef289c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 11:16:33PM -0800, Mike Ford wrote: > OTOH I would not be willing to bet that some user on this list hasn't > entered a message via toggle switches in octal. ;) I still say that if people can mail me their MS-Word crap w/o asking first, I should be able to send "Content-Type: application/runoff" to them and let *them* be the ones to copy it through three systems to get it somewhere where they can read it legibly (if they have RUNOFF at all, if they don't, tough). So there! And of course "image/hpgl" too (with the pens loaded in some unusual order just to be a pain) for tacking 2 KB corporate logos onto every 300-character message. And if people insist on putting their card on the end of every message, it should be 80 columns wide and 12 rows tall (and mail the chad separately). Yeah, pcard instead of vcard! Well maybe not... John Wilson D Bit From mbg at world.std.com Sat Feb 5 11:01:05 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? Message-ID: <200002051701.MAA10375@world.std.com> >It is the LSI-11 built into a VT100 thingy (a PDT-11?) The cards are from >left to right: LSI=11/03 processor, RQDXn disk controller, Memory (looks >like an M8044), serial port, and RX01 floppy controller. A cute system >and well worth the dollar that is currently bid :-) --Chuck Sounds more like a VT103 case... definitely worth it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 12:41:00 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? In-Reply-To: <20000205081811.15362.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000205104027.015c4450@mcmanis.com> Feel free to bid on it, I just put a $10 bid on it to see what the reserve was (its more than $10 :-) --Chuck At 12:18 AM 2/5/00 -0800, you wrote: >--- Chuck McManis wrote: > > It is the LSI-11 built into a VT100 thingy (a PDT-11?) The cards are from > > left to right: > > LSI=11/03 processor, RQDXn disk controller, Memory (looks like an M8044), > > serial port, and RX01 floppy controller. A cute system and well worth the > > dollar that is currently bid :-) > > --Chuck > >I see that you're the high bidder, or I'd probably bid on it myself (that, >and I already have a VT103 and boxes of Qbus cards). > >What _I_ see there in the ad is an 11/23 CPU (KDF-11), some third party >(floppy) controller (white handle - the RQDX3 has a 50-pin connector in >the middle of a red handle; the RQDX1 and RQDX2 are quad-width), memory >(perhaps an M8044, as you say), an IVB11 (IEEE-488) and a DJV11-J 4-port >SIO card. Pretty standard stuff. > >Good luck on the box. I hope you get it. > >-ethan > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com From mac at Wireless.Com Sat Feb 5 13:18:55 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: I'd like to see a small tag be prefixed to the Subject: line so that it's easier to know that the email came from the Classic Computer list. I suggest the Majordomo "config" file include a line like this: subject_prefix = [ClassicCmp] or somesuch. That way, it's quite easy to sort on messages from this list both automatically, and, equally important, manually. I don't much care -exactly- what the subject_prefix ends up being, just some tag that uniquely identifies the message as coming from classiccmp. Thanks! -Mike From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 5 14:46:23 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: Info needed: Eagle AVL S-100 computer In-Reply-To: <2b.17638f7.25cd4395@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000205154623.495f5ab6@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:12 AM 2/5/00 EST, Paxton wrote: >Joe; > >I would ignore the AVL. Does anyone know if Eagle made a S100 computer? It appears that they did. See "http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/vallino/personal/bio.html". That's a job history of one of the guys that used to work for them. AVL decided to adopt computers early on in order to be able to change slides faster. It sounds like they didn't use the S-100 stuff very long before switching to the IBM PC. FWIW the case and all the cards in it appear to have been made by AVL. All of them have their logo on them and the case only has the required cut outs. My >bet is the computer is a generic S100 used to run multiple serial ports. That's what I was hoping that it was but it appears to be a custom job. For example, the ports on it are five pin DIN sockets. I've never seen them used on another S-100 computer. >However they could be custom controllers. FWIW it does appear that they used the S-100 bus. It does have the right connectors and the few pins that we traced out all seem to have the right voltages and signals on them. > >AVL makes slide projector controllers for large slide shows. This sounds like >a very early controller. What are the outputs on the AV cards? The "controller" output appears to be five 5 pin DIN sockets on the back. Only two of the sockets are used in this machine. The others are there but have never had wires soldered to them. Could they >conceivably drive Kodak Ektamatic or Carousel slide projectors? Very possibly. But I don't know anything about the controls for slide projectors so I can't say. I'm sure you'd need software to run them and that could be quite a problem to find. There is one disk with the drive but who knows what's on it. Slide >projectors use 2, 5 or 7 wire/pin connectors. Some AVLs will control up to 12 >slide projectors, usually in multiple of 3s (i.e., 3, 6, 9 or 12 projectors). > Two of the wires control the power up and down on the light bulbs. If they >did this directly there would have to be some serious power dissipation. AVL >was an early adopter of computers. > >If I remember right Eagle made S100 computers before their crossover clones. > >This is my guess. I think you're dead on. Joe >Paxton > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 5 15:02:26 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? In-Reply-To: <001001bf6ff0$3bab9d00$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000205160226.2f47d4c4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Richard, Exactly what was add-on supposed to do for the Xerox 820? Joe At 08:46 AM 2/5/00 -0700, Richard wrote: >There may well have been one of these. I've got a one or two of the ones a Denver company made for the Xerox 820 to insert a 1791/95 in place of the 1771. I even have the writeup somewhere, but no software patches. It just seems that I never have both the mezzanine board and the doc at the same time. > >Dick > -----Original Message----- > From: No Name > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Saturday, February 05, 2000 8:49 AM > Subject: Re: What's a WD2793A chip? > > > Wasn't there an add-on developed for the Xerox 820/ Big Board that used the 2793? As I recall it was a a simpler (and less expensive) circuit as compared to the other add-on being offered at the time. I had one and lost it (as well as my 256K memory expansion board) during the course of my moves. If anyone has the schematics for it I'd like to try and put another one together. > > Lou > >Attachment Converted: "C:\ATTACH\ReWhat'1.htm" > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 12:36:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <02e001bf6f97$080d56e0$2ee993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 4, 0 09:58:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 830 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/a34aa3f6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 12:56:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 5, 0 09:41:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2283 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/066f52eb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 13:05:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Feb 5, 0 11:45:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1783 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/51b76e46/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 14:20:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000205160226.2f47d4c4@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 5, 0 04:02:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 792 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/a274642c/attachment.ksh From west at tseinc.com Sat Feb 5 14:12:30 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: ClassicCMP test subject prefix IGNORE Message-ID: <004701bf7015$561c90c0$0101a8c0@jay> test subject prefix From dann at greycat.com Sat Feb 5 14:30:55 2000 From: dann at greycat.com (Dann Lunsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: ; from mac@Wireless.Com on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 11:18:55AM -0800 References: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000205123055.A55477@greycat.com> On Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 11:18:55AM -0800, Mike Cheponis wrote: > I'd like to see a small tag be prefixed to the Subject: line so that it's > easier to know that the email came from the Classic Computer list. > > I suggest the Majordomo "config" file include a line like this: > > subject_prefix = [ClassicCmp] > > or somesuch. That way, it's quite easy to sort on messages from this list > both automatically, and, equally important, manually. I have to come out as vehemently opposed to this. I'm on a couple of lists that do this, and *all* it really achieves is reducing the number of visibie/useful characters in the Subject: header, and increasing the noise level. The Sender: header already contains "owner-classiccmp"; surely pine (never used it, msyelf; went from 'mail' to 'elm' to 'mutt', which I *LIKE* :-)) can sort on Sender:. Or use procmail to distribute your mail into folders; the following is the procmail recipe that I use for this list: :0: * ^Sender:.*owner-classiccmp* classiccomp (Yes, it could be smarter, but I don't feel like taking the time :-)) In short, Ah'm agin' it. -- Dann Lunsford The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil dann@greycat.com is that men of good will do nothing. -- Cicero From west at tseinc.com Sat Feb 5 14:29:42 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] DIGEST USERS/WANNABES PLEASE READ Message-ID: <007d01bf7017$c03c4fc0$0101a8c0@jay> The digests appear to be working, but likely need some "tuning". It appears the digests are being sent only when a certain number of messages have stacked up. I would like to change it so that the digest is sent out at a certain time each day, once a day, regardless of the number of messages waiting in the digest. Does anyone have any ideas regarding how it should be timed? Also, quite a few people have emailed me asking what happened to the digests. Apparently the old software handled the digests as part of the main list. With majordomo, digests are actually a totally separate list. If you want digests instead of regular traffic, unsubscribe to the classiccmp list and then subscribe to classiccmp-digest which is the name of the digest list. Send to majordomo@classiccmp.org with a key of 'unsubscribe classiccmp' Then send another message to majordomo@classiccmp.org with a key of 'subscribe classiccmp-digest' Of course, there's no reason you can't subscribe to both :) Pleast let me know if there's any problems. Regards, Jay West From west at tseinc.com Sat Feb 5 14:36:05 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request Message-ID: <008301bf7018$a0fca0a0$0101a8c0@jay> Another kind list user has just blessed me with four H89's and an H19, about 4 external 5.25 drives and one or two 8" drive boxes, along with a TON of manuals, software, etc. I was wondering if anyone can point me to a source for 5.25" floppy disk media for the drives that are internal to the H89's. I believe they are hard sector, perhaps 10 sector? Thanks in advance! Jay West From edick at idcomm.com Sat Feb 5 14:55:35 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <003801bf701b$5a057c00$0400c0a8@winbook> It sat as a mazzanine board on the 820 board, in place of the 1771 in order to enable the 820 to handle MFM format. regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, February 05, 2000 1:26 PM Subject: Re: What's a WD2793A chip? >Richard, > > Exactly what was add-on supposed to do for the Xerox 820? > > Joe > > >At 08:46 AM 2/5/00 -0700, Richard wrote: >>There may well have been one of these. I've got a one or two of the ones >a Denver company made for the Xerox 820 to insert a 1791/95 in place of the >1771. I even have the writeup somewhere, but no software patches. It just >seems that I never have both the mezzanine board and the doc at the same >time. >> >>Dick >> -----Original Message----- >> From: No Name >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Saturday, February 05, 2000 8:49 AM >> Subject: Re: What's a WD2793A chip? >> >> >> Wasn't there an add-on developed for the Xerox 820/ Big Board that >used the 2793? As I recall it was a a simpler (and less expensive) circuit >as compared to the other add-on being offered at the time. I had one and >lost it (as well as my 256K memory expansion board) during the course of my >moves. If anyone has the schematics for it I'd like to try and put another >one together. >> >> Lou >> >>Attachment Converted: "C:\ATTACH\ReWhat'1.htm" >> > From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Feb 5 15:13:55 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: References: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000205151355.01742df0@pc> At 11:18 AM 2/5/00 -0800, you wrote: >I don't much care -exactly- what the subject_prefix ends up being, just some >tag that uniquely identifies the message as coming from classiccmp. [CCC] would be shorter. If your mail program is doing the filtering, classiccmp@classiccmp.org is sprinkled throughout the header - or is there a filter out there that can only look at subject lines? Or are we talking about filtering performmed by your eyes on your mailbox? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Feb 5 15:11:07 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: References: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000205151107.01745560@pc> At 07:05 PM 2/5/00 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >Attacking a Word file with strings(1) often extracts some readable text >from it. However, I wonder what I am missing, as it appears only about >1/8 of the file is said text. Certainly within the last few years, Word was known for putting the contents of undo buffers or previous cut operations in the .DOC file. I know I used this trick to sometimes see the previous edits of, say, a contract or letter that someone had sent to me in Word form. :-) These days, if you hope to find strings in Windows-related files, you really need a 'strings' that handles Unicode. I think I saw one in the last year or two. - John From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 5 15:26:21 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Macintosh Portable questions. Message-ID: <20000205212621.85171.qmail@hotmail.com> Here are a few questions I have about the Macintosh Portable How much would a 3Mb (or larger) memory expander card cost? How much would a car power adapter cost? Were there ever any cards released that used the ROM slot? Were there ever any cards released that used the PDS slot? Where can I find a detailed pin-out diagram of the Portable's video out socket & a PC's VGA video socket? (The info in the manual is too vague, I require more info so I can at least try to rig-up a cable that can use a regular VGA monitor. That is all assuming that this is even possible in the first place) I know that Dynamic Engineering & Ebay have some of the things that I am looking for, but I am not paying *that* much for some of that stuff, they must think I'm an idiot or something. Also I really don't trust Ebay that much. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Feb 5 15:26:57 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:51 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000204222906.01ba1460@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Feb 04, 2000 10:45:14 PM Message-ID: <200002052126.OAA15122@calico.litterbox.com> I believe VMS 5.4 is early enough that it doesn't like non-dec drives. I was unable to get my seagate drive to show up at all until I upgraded to VMS 7. whatever is on the hobbiest cdrom v2. The older versions' scsi driver was finicky. There's a workaround, but I've forgotten what it is, and I'm sure someone will post it. > > I have a very perplexing problem. What I want to do is mount a Seagate > ST410800N on a VMS 5.4-1 system. > > The hardware is a VAX 4000/300 with an Emulex UC-08-III controller half of > which is in MSCP mode. (the other half is talking to the tape drive) There > are two existing 1GB (Imprimis) drives on this system. > > First attempt: > > Put the drive into the SCSI chain, terminate it correctly, drives are > targets 0, 1, and 2. The new drive is now target 0, the others are moved to > 1 and 2. I reset the VAX and get into the Emulex firmware (rev 'M' (changed > to 'R' later, see below)) and try to autoconfigure the drives. The two 1GB > drives show up like they should, the 9GB drive shows up as a 500MB drive. > Weird. > > Second attempt: > Replace the firmware in the Emulex with version 'R'. Attempt to > reconfigure, same problem as #1. > > Third attempt: > Attempt to manually specify the geometry and notice that the Seagate is > reporting it has 4925 cylinders but the prompt says the number has to be > between 20 and 4095. I enter a number smaller than 4095 and say 'OK'. Now > the drive shows up as having 14x10E6 blocks! Ok so now we're getting > somewhere but I forgot to configure the other two. > > Fourth Attempt: > Recompute "Fake" heads/sectors numbers so that by using 4094 cylinders I > get close to the drives 17,845,431 blocks. Configure the two 1GB drives > with all the defaults. Seagate drive shows up as a 1/2 G drive again. On a > whim I subtract the number of blocks shown from what it should be, the > result is in the 16x10E6 range, aha! I say. > > Fifth Attempt: > Recompute cylinder/sector/head numbers so that the total will be less than > 2^24-1 blocks. This works and I end up with a controller that thinks the > drive is about 8GB in size (I could live with this for now...). So we go > all the way up to VMS. > > In VMS I type 'INIT DUA0: TEST' and it fails with "%INIT-F-CLUSTER > unsuitable cluster factor", I drill down through the help files but there > doesn't seem to be a comment on this. It talks about VAX clusters and > CLUSTER_SIZE which I tried setting to higher numbers (like 10 or 16). But > nothing has worked so far. > > My questions then are: > 1) Is there a way to get the Emulex controller to recognize more that 2^24 > blocks on a SCSI drive? > 2) Does VMS have a volume size limit in 5.4-1 that I need to know about? > 3) If I "split" the volume on the Emulex into two logical drives, can the sum > of the logical drive sizes be greater than 8GB? > > Curious minds want to know! > --Chuck (Who is enjoying VMS for the time being ... ;-)) > > > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 5 15:37:25 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: References: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >I'd like to see a small tag be prefixed to the Subject: line so that it's >easier to know that the email came from the Classic Computer list. > >I suggest the Majordomo "config" file include a line like this: > >subject_prefix = [ClassicCmp] Oh, NO! I'd just like to point out that this makes sorting messages a nightmare! PLUS it means you've got shorter subject lines. ARGGHHH! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 5 16:34:41 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: References: <02e001bf6f97$080d56e0$2ee993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000205173441.495f077a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:36 PM 2/5/00 +0000, Tony wrote: > >> (I've NEVER seen a machine with the touch screen BTW). > >I can confirm that it does exist, at least for the 150-II. The Touch Screen came standard on all HP 150s. It was optional on the TS-II. It could also be ordered and installed by the user. I've never seen it on a TS-II, but I've only seen a few TS-IIs anyway. BUT I did see a Touch Screen add on for sale on E-bay once. The same add-on Touch Screen could also be used on one of the HP terminals. Joe From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Feb 5 15:55:02 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Why is it a nightmare? It's all the same for me (as far as software sorting). On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >I'd like to see a small tag be prefixed to the Subject: line so that it's > >easier to know that the email came from the Classic Computer list. > > > >I suggest the Majordomo "config" file include a line like this: > > > >subject_prefix = [ClassicCmp] > > Oh, NO! I'd just like to point out that this makes sorting messages a > nightmare! PLUS it means you've got shorter subject lines. ARGGHHH! > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From kevinm at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Sat Feb 5 14:47:26 2000 From: kevinm at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] PDP8/S, then GRI99, and later a British machine?? Message-ID: <002601bf701a$35d1b660$8700a8c0@xpuppy> Many years ago I worked on a minicomputer range manufactured in the UK. The series was the Molecular 18 sold by BCL Ltd. Having an interest in this machine, and in PDP8 machines, I have been looking for links between the two. (The two machines have quite a few similarities) In an interview, Saul Dinman (who designed the PDP8/S) talks about a later design called the GRI-909. Saul had left DEC at this stage. The company that manufactured the early Molecular 18 machines in the UK was Allied Business Computers, who also produced a machine called the GRI-99. This all may be coincidence and fanciful, but does any one have any information of the GRI range of machines? Kevin Murrell UK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/f526eeaa/attachment.html From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 16:21:26 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: References: < <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000205142007.016b5dd0@mcmanis.com> I'm with Zane here (who uttered these words) putting [ClassicCMP] in the header is a waste of space. There are plenty of unambiguous indicators in the message headers that messages come from this list and most if not all software will sort them correctly. --Chuck At 01:37 PM 2/5/00 -0800, you wrote: >Oh, NO! I'd just like to point out that this makes sorting messages a >nightmare! PLUS it means you've got shorter subject lines. ARGGHHH! From cem14 at cornell.edu Sat Feb 5 16:20:17 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: References: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000205172017.00d3c4cc@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 07:05 PM 02/05/2000 +0000, you wrote: >There is one big difference. Runoff, *roff, TeX, etc are all >human-readable anyway. Yes, I know TeX is a complete programming >language, so in theory you could encrypt some text and write a TeX document >that decodes it and prints it, but nobody ever does :-). Tony: did you ever play with BASiX ? it was a bare-bones TeX-based BASIC intepreter written just for the sake of proving that it could be done. It was published in TUGBoat at some point in time. Fun source to look at. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 16:42:45 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? In-Reply-To: <200002052126.OAA15122@calico.litterbox.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20000204222906.01ba1460@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000205143959.015aaa20@mcmanis.com> Certainly possible, the controller can "split" the drive into multiple parts probably to get around this. Does anyone know what the largest drive VMS 5.4 could use? Is that in the Software SPD somewhere? (This I have but it is pretty opaque) --Chuck >I believe VMS 5.4 is early enough that it doesn't like non-dec drives. I was >unable to get my seagate drive to show up at all until I upgraded to VMS 7. >whatever is on the hobbiest cdrom v2. The older versions' scsi driver was >finicky. There's a workaround, but I've forgotten what it is, and I'm sure >someone will post it. [smallish protest note, since we've gone back to the broken(tm) way of doing replies to the list my mailer no longer appropriately attributes quotations, therefore from this message forward I'll simply remove the now supurious "you wrote:" line. --Chuck] From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 16:47:52 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000205144724.015c7ba0@mcmanis.com> Does anyone know if RSX-11M 4.0 supports MSCP drives? --Chuck From ss at allegro.com Sat Feb 5 16:49:01 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000205142007.016b5dd0@mcmanis.com> References: <"v04020a00b4c2484412f6(a)(091)192.168.1.5(093)*"@MHS> Message-ID: <200002052249.OAA07129@opus.allegro.com> Re: > I'm with Zane here (who uttered these words) putting [ClassicCMP] in the > header is a waste of space. There are plenty of unambiguous indicators in > the message headers that messages come from this list and most if not all > software will sort them correctly. > --Chuck > > At 01:37 PM 2/5/00 -0800, you wrote: > >Oh, NO! I'd just like to point out that this makes sorting messages a > >nightmare! PLUS it means you've got shorter subject lines. ARGGHHH! I agree! In Pegasus, "new mail" window, this message's subject line is: Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] T (yes, when I open the message, I see the full subject: Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line (yes, I have the "subject" column more than adequately sized!) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 5 16:48:11 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request In-Reply-To: <008301bf7018$a0fca0a0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000205174811.2f0f7c50@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Jay, IF they're 10 sectored then North Star's use the same disk. There was a guy that was selling quite a bit of N* software on E-bay. The price was running about $1/disk if I remember correctly. If you can't find any of the ads, I have his address somewhere and I can dig it out for you. Joe At 02:36 PM 2/5/00 -0600, you wrote: >Another kind list user has just blessed me with four H89's and an H19, about >4 external 5.25 drives and one or two 8" drive boxes, along with a TON of >manuals, software, etc. > >I was wondering if anyone can point me to a source for 5.25" floppy disk >media for the drives that are internal to the H89's. I believe they are hard >sector, perhaps 10 sector? > >Thanks in advance! > >Jay West > > From KB9VU at aol.com Sat Feb 5 17:04:33 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request Message-ID: <3b.ae97a7.25ce0681@aol.com> Oh, I forgot to tell you, there is a disk in the software pile called EMULATE. It will allow you to read and write several other computer disk write schemes (Kaypro, Osborne, Cromemco, Tandy, Magnolia, CDR, Z-37, Z-47, Etc.). The disks need to be the same media (Hard Sector or Soft Sector) but it works pretty slick. Mike From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Feb 5 17:08:19 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? Message-ID: <200002052308.SAA29408@world.std.com> >How much would a 3Mb (or larger) memory expander card cost? All luck. They're so obscure there really is no set price. >How much would a car power adapter cost? You'd probably be best off just getting an AC to car converter. I have a "Curtis Power Maker 50" which I paid about $50 for, and it works fine. >Were there ever any cards released that used the ROM slot? >Were there ever any cards released that used the PDS slot? All I can think of is the modem and memory cards. >Where can I find a detailed pin-out diagram of the Portable's video out >socket & a PC's VGA video socket? This could be tough. An adapter is required to use an external monitor on the Mac Portable, and I've never heard of anybody actually owning one. Unless you can find a _lot_ more information, you'd probably have better luck finding a SCSI-based monitor. Tom ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From owad at applefritter.com Sat Feb 5 17:42:40 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line Message-ID: <200002052345.PAA00646@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >I have to come out as vehemently opposed to this. I'm on a couple of lists >that do this, and *all* it really achieves is reducing the number of >visibie/useful characters in the Subject: header, and increasing the >noise level. I agree; it is a bit of a nuisance. ClassicCmp gets so much traffic I'm sure most of us have it automatically sorted. At worst, how about just '[C]'? Tom Owad ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Feb 5 17:30:09 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: <20000205123055.A55477@greycat.com> References: ; from mac@Wireless.Com on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 11:18:55AM -0800 <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: I don't mind a subject thing, but maybe shorter? [CCmp] I am a visual sorter, but at least my VCR doesn't blink 12:00 (for more than a month after a power out.) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 17:28:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000205172017.00d3c4cc@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> from "Carlos Murillo" at Feb 5, 0 05:20:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 669 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/15d4ca14/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 17:24:42 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request In-Reply-To: <008301bf7018$a0fca0a0$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Feb 5, 0 02:36:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1141 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/5c209ae4/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 5 17:57:16 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Why is it a nightmare? It's all the same for me (as far as software >sorting). Because if you sort by subject so you can find an entire thread, you won't find the entire thread. Furthermore, almost anyone that filters thier mail into separate mailboxes shouldn't need that in the subject. I filter off of finding "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" in the message headers. Also what started out as: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line is now: Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line It will get worse. I'm was on a mailing list that does this with just a two letter id, and I've seen it creep most of the way across the subject. I will admit this might be handy if you're not filtering stuff into different mailboxes/folders. Of course if you're active enough on the list you should be able to recognize a message from the list, just by the sender/subject! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Feb 5 06:16:06 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: Tag requested in Subject: line References: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <389C1486.B7A7E1E4@idirect.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > >I'd like to see a small tag be prefixed to the Subject: line so that it's > >easier to know that the email came from the Classic Computer list. > >I suggest the Majordomo "config" file include a line like this: > >subject_prefix = [ClassicCmp] > Oh, NO! I'd just like to point out that this makes sorting messages a > nightmare! PLUS it means you've got shorter subject lines. ARGGHHH! Jerome Fine replies: I agree with the original request and I agree with Zane. Perhaps a compromise like: subject_prefix = [CCmp] would do the job and still be just as identifiable. Even then, if we take a little bit of extra time (about 10 seconds - much longer than it takes me to type even this stuff in parenthesis), the original [CCmp] can be deleted. I don't know if the list software can also search for the presence of any imbedded [CCmp] strings and eliminate those as well automatically. Otherwise, I do prefer the prefix. Sorry Zane! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Feb 5 06:19:42 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? References: <4.2.0.58.20000205104027.015c4450@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <389C155E.38F7E4AC@idirect.com> >Chuck McManis wrote: > Feel free to bid on it, I just put a $10 bid on it to see what the reserve > was (its more than $10 :-) > > > It is the LSI-11 built into a VT100 thingy (a PDT-11?) The cards are from > > > left to right: > > > LSI=11/03 processor, RQDXn disk controller, Memory (looks like an M8044), > > > serial port, and RX01 floppy controller. A cute system and well worth the > > > dollar that is currently bid :-) > >I see that you're the high bidder, or I'd probably bid on it myself (that, > >and I already have a VT103 and boxes of Qbus cards). > >What _I_ see there in the ad is an 11/23 CPU (KDF-11), some third party > >(floppy) controller (white handle - the RQDX3 has a 50-pin connector in > >the middle of a red handle; the RQDX1 and RQDX2 are quad-width), memory > >(perhaps an M8044, as you say), an IVB11 (IEEE-488) and a DJV11-J 4-port > >SIO card. Pretty standard stuff. Jerome Fine replies: Since I already have a VT103 (with the backplane upgraded to 22 bit addresses no less), I do not want another one. But I would like to track the auction. But when I searched for it, I could not find it. Can anyone supply the URL please? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Feb 5 18:31:05 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis "[ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives?" (Feb 5, 14:47) References: <4.2.0.58.20000205144724.015c7ba0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <10002060031.ZM7960@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 5, 14:47, Chuck McManis wrote: > Does anyone know if RSX-11M 4.0 supports MSCP drives? 4.x certainly does, but I can't remember exactly which interfaces. I recall using an RQDX2 on miy 11/73, maybe RQDX3. The earliest MSCP support appeared in 3.x, I think. I assume you have a reason for asking? If I know what interface/drive you were thinking of, I might be able to look it up in the SYSGEN manual. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Feb 5 18:07:56 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST In-Reply-To: "emanuel stiebler" "Re: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST" (Feb 5, 9:09) References: <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <011701bf6ff3$d27ac320$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: <10002060007.ZM7941@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 5, 9:09, emanuel stiebler wrote: > I like b) most. This sending of HTML, happens mostly to new members, (or to > "old" users, which got a browser "update" ;-)) so they can see immediatly > whats wrong, and we don't even see this email, so no reason for a new > discussion about it AGAIN. ;-) I've noticed on rare occasions, that regular contributors post an HTML or multipart message as a follow-up. I don't have one handy to check, but I suspect that's due to Netscape Messenger (and I think Outlook may do it too) having a setting that normally sends plain text, but HTML-ises a reply to an HTML message. I'm pretty sure the regulars who've let that happen have done so unintentionally. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Feb 5 18:23:56 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: Mike Cheponis "[ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line" (Feb 5, 11:18) References: Message-ID: <10002060023.ZM7954@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 5, 11:18, Mike Cheponis wrote: > I'd like to see a small tag be prefixed to the Subject: line so that it's > easier to know that the email came from the Classic Computer list. > > I suggest the Majordomo "config" file include a line like this: > > subject_prefix = [ClassicCmp] > > or somesuch. That way, it's quite easy to sort on messages from this list > both automatically, and, equally important, manually. No!!! Please! Any sensible mailer can sort on, or at least display, one of the "Sender:" or "To:" field, or the envelope "From" (not the header "From:") instead of the envelope "To" line. All of these, as well as the "Reply-to:", refer to the mailing list address. Anyone who hasn't seen all the headers, see below for the headers as I received Mike's message, and you'll see what I mean. All the prefix does is make it messy, and waste space. -------------------received headers below here--------------------------- >From owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sat Feb 5 23:59:44 2000 Received: from localhost by indy.dunnington.u-net.com via ESMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1502/980207.PNT) for id XAA07839; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 23:59:44 GMT Envelope-to: pete@dunnington.u-net.com Delivery-date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 19:52:39 +0000 Received: from mail.u-net.com by fetchmail-4.6.0 POP3 for (multi-drop); Sat, 05 Feb 2000 23:59:44 GMT Received: from [209.83.134.16] (helo=opal.tseinc.com) by mserv1b.u-net.net with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #63) id 12HBG2-0004Gp-00 for pete@dunnington.u-net.com; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 19:52:38 +0000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by opal.tseinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA64868 for classiccmp-classiccmp-org-outgoing; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 13:18:56 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org) X-Authentication-Warning: opal.tseinc.com: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f Received: from NameServer.Culver.Net (mac@[206.79.230.38]) by opal.tseinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA64863 for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 13:18:54 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mac@Wireless.Com) Received: from localhost (mac@localhost) by NameServer.Culver.Net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA18471; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 11:18:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 11:18:55 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Cheponis X-Sender: mac@NameServer.Culver.Net To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -------------------received headers above here--------------------------- -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Sat Feb 5 18:35:34 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: <200002052345.PAA00646@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net>; from owad@applefritter.com on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 06:42:40PM -0500 References: <200002052345.PAA00646@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20000205193534.A17625@alcor.concordia.ca> On Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 06:42:40PM -0500, Tom Owad (owad@applefritter.com) wrote: > >I have to come out as vehemently opposed to this. I'm on a couple of lists > >that do this, and *all* it really achieves is reducing the number of > >visibie/useful characters in the Subject: header, and increasing the > >noise level. > > I agree; it is a bit of a nuisance. ClassicCmp gets so much traffic I'm > sure most of us have it automatically sorted. > > At worst, how about just '[C]'? Even that will cause a problem, since Majordomo appears to be too stupid to understand "Re:", and you end up with cascading "Re: [ClassicCMP]" all across the top. I am aware of no mail filters which only allow filtering on Subject:. -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From go at ao.com Sat Feb 5 19:01:57 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST In-Reply-To: <10002060007.ZM7941@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <"emanuel stiebler" <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <011701bf6ff3$d27ac320$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000205165738.036eed00@buffy.ao.com> >I've noticed on rare occasions, that regular contributors post an HTML or >multipart message as a follow-up. I don't have one handy to check, but I >suspect that's due to Netscape Messenger (and I think Outlook may do it >too) having a setting that normally sends plain text, but HTML-ises a >reply to an HTML message. I'm pretty sure the regulars who've let that >happen have done so unintentionally. > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York You can blame Eudora as well. They implemented a new "flowed" display that changes text set off by > into a change bar sort of thing. Unfortunatly, when you reply to a message that is already a reply, it turns the mess into some kind of RTF (html is mostly used.) I have my Eudora configured to ASK first before sending this, and to set "send as text only" before it gets launched. If you don't configure it to ASK, it goes out RTF'd. And it appears that Eudora turns ALL messages into HTML internally (when I do a "view source" on any message, I get HTML for everything - even the rfc822 headers. I've complained several times to the Eudora tech support and have never received an answer...) -Gary From donm at cts.com Sat Feb 5 19:12:10 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: <389C1486.B7A7E1E4@idirect.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Jerome Fine wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > >I'd like to see a small tag be prefixed to the Subject: line so that it's > > >easier to know that the email came from the Classic Computer list. > > >I suggest the Majordomo "config" file include a line like this: > > >subject_prefix = [ClassicCmp] > > Oh, NO! I'd just like to point out that this makes sorting messages a > > nightmare! PLUS it means you've got shorter subject lines. ARGGHHH! > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I agree with the original request and I agree with Zane. Perhaps a compromise like: > subject_prefix = [CCmp] would do the job and still be just as identifiable. Even > then, if we take a little bit of extra time (about 10 seconds - much longer than it takes > me to type even this stuff in parenthesis), the original [CCmp] can be deleted. I don't > know if the list software can also search for the presence of any imbedded [CCmp] > strings and eliminate those as well automatically. > > Otherwise, I do prefer the prefix. Sorry Zane! Well, you could preface it with Re: as in Zane's previous example: : Also what started out as: : [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line : is now: : Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line : It will get worse. I'm was on a mailing list that does this with just : a two letter id, and I've seen it creep most of the way across the subject. 8-) - don > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > > From mac at Wireless.Com Sat Feb 5 20:05:15 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: <200002052345.PAA00646@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I think just [C] or [CC] would be OK, too. -Mike On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Tom Owad wrote: > >I have to come out as vehemently opposed to this. I'm on a couple of lists > >that do this, and *all* it really achieves is reducing the number of > >visibie/useful characters in the Subject: header, and increasing the > >noise level. > > I agree; it is a bit of a nuisance. ClassicCmp gets so much traffic I'm > sure most of us have it automatically sorted. > > At worst, how about just '[C]'? > > Tom Owad > > ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ > Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. > ------------------------------------------ > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 5 20:14:55 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? In-Reply-To: <10002060031.ZM7960@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: Chuck McManis "[ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives?" (Feb 5, 14:47) <4.2.0.58.20000205144724.015c7ba0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: Peter Turnbull wrote: >On Feb 5, 14:47, Chuck McManis wrote: >> Does anyone know if RSX-11M 4.0 supports MSCP drives? > >4.x certainly does, but I can't remember exactly which interfaces. I >recall using an RQDX2 on miy 11/73, maybe RQDX3. The earliest MSCP support >appeared in 3.x, I think. I assume you have a reason for asking? If I know >what interface/drive you were thinking of, I might be able to look it up in >the SYSGEN manual. I've used a WQESD ESDI controller, and a Viking QDT SCSI controller with V4.2 without any problem. Should just need to SYSGEN in MSCP support. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dann at greycat.com Sat Feb 5 20:55:17 2000 From: dann at greycat.com (Dann Lunsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: <20000205193534.A17625@alcor.concordia.ca>; from rich@alcor.concordia.ca on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 07:35:34PM -0500 References: <200002052345.PAA00646@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <20000205193534.A17625@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <20000205185517.A64919@greycat.com> On Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 07:35:34PM -0500, Rich Lafferty wrote: > On Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 06:42:40PM -0500, Tom Owad (owad@applefritter.com) wrote: > > >I have to come out as vehemently opposed to this. I'm on a couple of lists > > >that do this, and *all* it really achieves is reducing the number of > > >visibie/useful characters in the Subject: header, and increasing the > > >noise level. > > > > I agree; it is a bit of a nuisance. ClassicCmp gets so much traffic I'm > > sure most of us have it automatically sorted. > > > > At worst, how about just '[C]'? > > Even that will cause a problem, since Majordomo appears to be too stupid > to understand "Re:", and you end up with cascading "Re: [ClassicCMP]" > all across the top. > > I am aware of no mail filters which only allow filtering on Subject:. > Well, strictly speaking, you could do this with procmail (aided and abetted by a couple of other programs), but I'll bet the result wouldn't be pretty. *Nasty old fart mode on* But my major objection, putting it perhaps a bit forcefully, is: Why should *I* have to deal with garbage put there to make up for *someone else's* brain dead, bletcherous MUA or someone else's lack of desire to learn how to use what they've got? If your MUA can't filter and/or sort effectively, JUNK IT! Don't ask everyone else to put up with extraneous garbage. GET SOMETHING THAT WORKS! And learn how to use it! In the long run, you'll be a lot happier, and certainly the people you deal with will be. (hmm.. should I turn it off? Nah.) -- Dann Lunsford The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil dann@greycat.com is that men of good will do nothing. -- Cicero From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 5 20:54:43 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: References: <200002052345.PAA00646@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Mike Cheponis wrote: >I think just [C] or [CC] would be OK, too. Why not just set up a filter that searches for "classiccmp@classiccmp.org"? As I've stated, the prefix trashes trying to sort messages by subject. It's not simply a problem of how much space it takes up. Rich Lafferty wrote: >Even that will cause a problem, since Majordomo appears to be too stupid >to understand "Re:", and you end up with cascading "Re: [ClassicCMP]" >all across the top. I suspect the problem is with specific eMail software, from what I've seen of this on other lists. It usually seems to be certain people that have/cause this problem. >I am aware of no mail filters which only allow filtering on Subject:. Actually some software such as Eudora Pro can. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 5 21:09:25 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: Why Tag's in subject lines are a BAD Thing! In-Reply-To: <389C1486.B7A7E1E4@idirect.com> References: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> >I'd like to see a small tag be prefixed to the Subject: line so that it's >> >easier to know that the email came from the Classic Computer list. >> >I suggest the Majordomo "config" file include a line like this: >> >subject_prefix = [ClassicCmp] >> Oh, NO! I'd just like to point out that this makes sorting messages a >> nightmare! PLUS it means you've got shorter subject lines. ARGGHHH! > >Jerome Fine replies: > >I agree with the original request and I agree with Zane. Perhaps a >compromise like: >subject_prefix = [CCmp] would do the job and still be just as >identifiable. Even >then, if we take a little bit of extra time (about 10 seconds - much >longer than it takes >me to type even this stuff in parenthesis), the original [CCmp] can be >deleted. I don't >know if the list software can also search for the presence of any imbedded >[CCmp] >strings and eliminate those as well automatically. > >Otherwise, I do prefer the prefix. Sorry Zane! My *KEY* point/compaint/rant, is that it destroys the ability to sort the messages by subject. I just did a quick sort by subject and got the following results (this is a small subset, and you'll note I've split out the specific thread I'm *trying* to follow): <--> [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line <--> [ClassicCMP] Re: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? [ClassicCMP] Re: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML in Email [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML in Email Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML in Email [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST [ClassicCMP] Re: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? <--> [ClassicCMP] Re: Tag requested in Subject: line Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: Tag requested in Subject: line <--> [ClassicCMP] Re: What's a WD2793A chip? <--> [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line <--> As you can see from this example using tags in the subject line totally breaks the ability to sort the messages by subject and follow a thread. It doesn't matter if you change the tag to something of a more sensible lenght, the ability to sort by subjects will still be lost! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Feb 5 21:38:16 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Why is it a nightmare? It's all the same for me (as far as software > >sorting). > > Because if you sort by subject so you can find an entire thread, you won't > find the entire thread. Furthermore, almost anyone that filters thier mail Ahh, point seen... From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Feb 5 21:41:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? Message-ID: <200002060341.WAA17877@world.std.com> ; from dann@greycat.com on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 06:55:17PM -0800 References: <200002052345.PAA00646@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <20000205193534.A17625@alcor.concordia.ca> <20000205185517.A64919@greycat.com> Message-ID: <20000205225224.B22487@alcor.concordia.ca> On Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 06:55:17PM -0800, Dann Lunsford (dann@greycat.com) wrote: > On Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 07:35:34PM -0500, Rich Lafferty wrote: > > > > I am aware of no mail filters which only allow filtering on Subject:. > > > Well, strictly speaking, you could do this with procmail (aided and > abetted by a couple of other programs), but I'll bet the result wouldn't > be pretty. Pedants! You're all pedants! Argh! "I am aware of no mail filters which allow filtering on Subject: only." There. Better? Furrfu! :-) (I've heard mumbles that majordomo 2 allows configuring both the Reply-To and the [ClassicCmp] subject thingie on a per-user basis. Updates as events warrant!) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 22:16:34 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000205165738.036eed00@buffy.ao.com> References: <10002060007.ZM7941@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <"emanuel stiebler" <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <011701bf6ff3$d27ac320$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000205201459.016beec0@mcmanis.com> I'd send to Gary but, you know ... Go to the options panel and turn off "use microsoft viewer" and it wont convert to HTML. It will still "flow" it however. So this message has been "flowed" by Eudora, can anyone confirm or deny that it is in HTML or RTF? (I see it as having two change bar type things on the left side. --Chuck At 05:01 PM 2/5/00 -0800, you wrote: >>I've noticed on rare occasions, that regular contributors post an HTML or >>multipart message as a follow-up. I don't have one handy to check, but I >>suspect that's due to Netscape Messenger (and I think Outlook may do it >>too) having a setting that normally sends plain text, but HTML-ises a >>reply to an HTML message. I'm pretty sure the regulars who've let that >>happen have done so unintentionally. >> >>-- >> >>Pete Peter Turnbull >> Dept. of Computer Science >> University of York > >You can blame Eudora as well. They implemented a new "flowed" display >that changes text set off by > into a change bar sort of thing. Unfortunatly, >when you reply to a message that is already a reply, it turns the mess >into some kind of RTF (html is mostly used.) I have my Eudora configured >to ASK first before sending this, and to set "send as text only" before >it gets launched. If you don't configure it to ASK, it goes out RTF'd. > >And it appears that Eudora turns ALL messages into HTML internally (when >I do a "view source" on any message, I get HTML for everything - even >the rfc822 headers. I've complained several times to the Eudora tech >support and have never received an answer...) > >-Gary > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 22:19:40 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? In-Reply-To: <10002060031.ZM7960@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20000205144724.015c7ba0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000205201723.015c5bc0@mcmanis.com> At 12:31 AM 2/6/00 +0000, ete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) wrote: >On Feb 5, 14:47, Chuck McManis wrote: > > Does anyone know if RSX-11M 4.0 supports MSCP drives? > >4.x certainly does, but I can't remember exactly which interfaces. I >recall using an RQDX2 on miy 11/73, maybe RQDX3. The earliest MSCP support >appeared in 3.x, I think. I assume you have a reason for asking? If I know >what interface/drive you were thinking of, I might be able to look it up in >the SYSGEN manual. Well it may be moot if the tape is destroyed, however the plan was to install it on an 11/23 using a Sigma RQDE11 (Webster licensed) board. I can tell it to report back to RSX any set of disks I would like. The trick is whether or not RSX will do the MSCP thing. (RT-11 won't for example until 5.1 :-() --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 22:22:19 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: References: <200002052345.PAA00646@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000205202032.0177fcc0@mcmanis.com> I think Jay has turned them off, at least a couple of messages further down seem to have them off, but the point is not how long they are, it is that the software is too stupid to see "Re: [ClassicCMP]" and say "gee this thing already has a tag on it, I'll leave it alone." Instead it adds another one, so every reply adds 16 characters to the subject line. Tags are evil. --Chuck At 06:05 PM 2/5/00 -0800, you wrote: >I think just [C] or [CC] would be OK, too. >-Mike From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 22:43:29 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? In-Reply-To: <200002060341.WAA17877@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000205203525.015b0810@mcmanis.com> At 10:41 PM 2/5/00 -0500, Allison wrote: >It's not so much a limit on 5.4 as the specific hardware limits that were >usually lower than VMS maxima. FOr example 3100s(early) cant have a boot >device more than 1.07gb but data devices can be much larger. The problem >was a artifact of early SCSI implmentations and not VMS limits. Since VMS >allowed (even before V5) things like bound and shadow volumes to create >terabyte sized disk fields I can see a limit for practical systems. Hmmm, good information but the problem remains without a clear solution. I was going to look at this today but instead got wrapped up in another vax project, a 3400 that I thought was in a dead BA213 roll around box. After replacing the power supplies in that box I discovered that a single RF30 isn't enough to cause the BA213's PSU to start regulating. But that raised another interesting point since the VAX 4000 manual has a nice discussion about clustering a couple of VAX on the DSSI bus and the 3400 has an on board DSSI bus, perhaps I can cluster the 3400 and the 4000 together. I still have to figure out if 5.4 can cluster dissimilar CPUs. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Feb 6 14:13:55 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: Ping Message-ID: The list still here? I have a hard time believing zero posts since last night. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Feb 6 13:43:07 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: HTML in Email References: <200002050841.DAA11126@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <002501bf70de$f9a73a00$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Sean, >> Sheesh. Plain text really sucks. Y'all prefer that someone type _like >>this_ to indicate a piece of underlined text? or my habit *bolding* with >>asterisks? This message "encoded" with HTML is roughly 5% larger than it >>is in plain text. Wow, now that's a waste of resources. Where did this quote come from? I've not seen this message, is my ISP losing mail for me again? :-( And to whoever actually wrote the above, where on earth did you get that figure of 5% from? HTML encoded messages are pretty much *100%* bigger than plain text messages - such messages contain TWO copies of the text, one in plain ASCII, one in HTML. Oh, and _YES_ I *personally* prefer the use of "_" and "*" to emphasise text.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sat Feb 5 11:28:38 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST References: <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20000205020448.24621.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <002401bf70de$f82e55a0$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Eric, >> Options I can think of: >> >> a) silently discard any such postings (probably not a good idea) >> b) bounce them back to the author, with an explanation of why bounced >> c) remove the non-text part >> d) combination of (b) and (c) >> e) accept, but warn the author (who may not realise (s)he's sent HTML) >> > For options a and b, only the header needs to be examined.... Personally I'd go for option "b", it would be the easiest and most courteous method. Whilst desirable, I feel option "c" would be too problematical. >....If people want to supply files to the list, it should be done by >providing a URL, or by private email. No attachments should be sent >to the list. Absolutely. Not only could this lead to potential virus distribution problems but if there are 400 people subscribed to the list and someone attaches a 1Mb file to a message it's going to clog up the server! TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Feb 6 14:44:29 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST In-Reply-To: <002401bf70de$f82e55a0$91d993c3@proteus>; from peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:28:38PM -0000 References: <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20000205020448.24621.qmail@brouhaha.com> <002401bf70de$f82e55a0$91d993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <20000206154429.A14667@alcor.concordia.ca> On Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:28:38PM -0000, Peter Pachla (peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk) wrote: > Hi Eric, > > >> Options I can think of: > >> > >> a) silently discard any such postings (probably not a good idea) > >> b) bounce them back to the author, with an explanation of why bounced > >> c) remove the non-text part > >> d) combination of (b) and (c) > >> e) accept, but warn the author (who may not realise (s)he's sent HTML) > >> > > For options a and b, only the header needs to be examined.... > > Personally I'd go for option "b", it would be the easiest and most courteous > method. Whilst desirable, I feel option "c" would be too problematical. If we do end up bouncing MIME'd messages, please don't block PGP/MIME signatures. (That is, please don't block messages of type multipart/signed, with part types of text/plain and application/pgp-signature.) We might also not want to block multipart messages that consist of only text/plain or message/rfc822, which are probably people forwarding other people's mail (read: forwarding other people's offers of computers) from a MIME-aware mail agent. -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Feb 6 15:01:47 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: Ping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.20000206155908.00b5fdd0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:13 PM 2/6/00 -0800, Zane H. Healy said something like: >The list still here? I have a hard time believing zero posts since last night. Well, everybody was plumb wore out from all the list operation discussions :-) Seems to work very well now! --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From west at tseinc.com Sun Feb 6 14:48:36 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: Ping References: Message-ID: <001101bf70e3$8b9d6b60$0101a8c0@jay> Zane wrote.... > The list still here? I have a hard time believing zero posts since last night. > > Zane It's here now anyways.... All of our services, especially mail - are redundant. If the primary server fails, there's a backup server that automagically takes over the load. Our primary mail server locked up last night about midnight. The backup mail server took over so mail was still working. However, since I was in a rush to get the list up I hadn't yet taken the time to make the classiccmp majordomo service redundant as well (it needs to be done on a service by service basis, not on a machine by machine basis). Sometime towards the end of this coming week I'll make the classiccmp majordomo setup redundant so it doesn't happen again. Regards, Jay West From west at tseinc.com Sun Feb 6 14:53:36 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request References: <3b.ae97a7.25ce0681@aol.com> Message-ID: <000b01bf70e4$3f7a5760$0101a8c0@jay> You wrote.... > Oh, I forgot to tell you, there is a disk in the software pile called > EMULATE. It will allow you to read and write several other computer disk > write schemes (Kaypro, Osborne, Cromemco, Tandy, Magnolia, CDR, Z-37, Z-47, > Etc.). The disks need to be the same media (Hard Sector or Soft Sector) but > it works pretty slick. > > Mike Thanks for the tip! Hey, I haven't got a chance to go through the stuff yet. Tell me, are these H89/90's or Z89/90's?? Isn't the different an 8080cpu vs. Z80? Jay From spc at armigeron.com Sun Feb 6 15:34:21 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: <002501bf70de$f9a73a00$91d993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 06, 2000 07:43:07 PM Message-ID: <200002062134.QAA09079@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Peter Pachla once stated: > > Hi Sean, > > >> Sheesh. Plain text really sucks. Y'all prefer that someone type _like > >>this_ to indicate a piece of underlined text? or my habit *bolding* with > >>asterisks? This message "encoded" with HTML is roughly 5% larger than it > >>is in plain text. Wow, now that's a waste of resources. > > Where did this quote come from? I've not seen this message, is my ISP losing > mail for me again? :-( Unless you were on the list in January of 1999, you wouldn't have seen the message I quoted. Last year this time was a discussion about this very topic and I just thought it would be interesting to bring it to our collective attention again. I have elm set up to save any outgoing message I send in a folder based upon the recipient, so everything I write for classiccmp (with a few exceptions over the past few days) is in one large folder called ``classiccmp.'' > And to whoever actually wrote the above, where on earth did you get that > figure of 5% from? HTML encoded messages are pretty much *100%* bigger than > plain text messages - such messages contain TWO copies of the text, one in > plain ASCII, one in HTML. He was saying that HTML *itself* only adds about 5% to plain text. Perhaps in a few cases that's true, like for hand written HTML, but most of these so called HTML editors are really bad and bloat the HTML out quite a bit. -spc (You should have seen the HTML reply I sent him back 8-) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Feb 6 15:47:06 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: Another test Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000206134624.019163a0@mcmanis.com> Well this is my third message since last night and I haven't seen one yet. Then the Ping's came through this morning, perhaps this one will make it... --Chuck From mac at Wireless.Com Sun Feb 6 15:47:59 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:52 2005 Subject: [CC] Tags are great Message-ID: Actually, folks, the software is -not- so stupid. What happened was that I put on my -personal- subject: line the string [ClassicCmp]. Then Jay added first ClassicCMP then [ClassicCmp]; these are in fact different. Notice: Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject If people had chosen to be observant, they would have noticed -no- other subject had multiple tags inserted, even when following-up. This is the way it should be. The linux-usb, bsd-usb, and irda lists all use tags, and are very helpful. Again, I don't see what the issue is for inserting [C] or [CC] at the beginning. As for this robbing people of 4 characters on the subject: line - gimme a break! (Or should I pop into flippant mode: what, -you- don't use 132-column screens to read your email! How primitive!) ;-) -Mike p.s. For the humor impaired, please note the ;-) on the previous paragraph. On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > I think Jay has turned them off, at least a couple of messages further down > seem to have them off, but the point is not how long they are, it is that > the software is too stupid to see "Re: [ClassicCMP]" and say "gee this > thing already has a tag on it, I'll leave it alone." Instead it adds > another one, so every reply adds 16 characters to the subject line. Tags > are evil. > > --Chuck > > At 06:05 PM 2/5/00 -0800, you wrote: > >I think just [C] or [CC] would be OK, too. > >-Mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 15:48:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: <002501bf70de$f9a73a00$91d993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 6, 0 07:43:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 883 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000206/3f8cb35a/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 6 17:11:02 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: Ping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000206181102.3ebfab52@mailhost.intellistar.net> Zane, Did you get this? If so, you're still on the list. If not, well ..... Joe At 12:13 PM 2/6/00 -0800, you wrote: >The list still here? I have a hard time believing zero posts since last night. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Feb 6 16:11:34 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? Message-ID: <10002062211.ZM8839@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Apologies if anyone already got this; I originally posted it during what seems to have been an outage, and I assume the original is lost... On Feb 5, 20:19, Chuck McManis wrote: > At 12:31 AM 2/6/00 +0000, ete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) wrote: ^^^ ete? :-) > >On Feb 5, 14:47, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > Does anyone know if RSX-11M 4.0 supports MSCP drives? > > > >4.x certainly does, but I can't remember exactly which interfaces. > >The earliest MSCP support appeared in 3.x, I think. Nope, Pete was wrong again. It looks like MSCP support first appeared in 4.0. And I never did get my RQDX3 to work under RSX-11 (but I never had a version later than 4.2). > Well it may be moot if the tape is destroyed, however the plan was to > install it on an 11/23 using a Sigma RQDE11 (Webster licensed) board. I can > tell it to report back to RSX any set of disks I would like. The trick is > whether or not RSX will do the MSCP thing. (RT-11 won't for example until > 5.1 :-() I've never done an install from tape, except to recover a backup, and then what matters is what standalone BRU or DSC supports. In 4.2 at least, BRU and BRU64K.SYS (the standalone) do support MSCP, but the manual only lists RA80/RA60/RA81/RC25/RD51/RX50 disks (and no MSCP tapes at all). DSC only supports the RA80; standalone DSC has no MSCP support at all in 4.2. I'd expect 4.0 supports even less. The list above implies RQDX1 support and other things, but not RQDX3. That might be a problem, because I think there's a bug in the early DU: handler that prevents it working with RQDX3s. I certainly never got RSX-11 4.2 to work with any RQDX3, and the same bug might apply to a 3rd-party controller. Best way to find out is to try it. I reckon there's a reasonable chance it will work, especially if your disk controller works with RT-11 5.1. In RT-11, full MSCP support post-dates even 5.1. 5.1 works with RQDX1/2, but not RQDX3, for example; because whoever wrote the DU: handler ignored the MSCP documentation and made an unwarranted assumption about the contents of the SA register during initialisation. It took me ages to trace the problem and fix it :-). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Feb 6 16:11:36 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST Message-ID: <10002062211.ZM8843@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Apologies if anyone already got this; I originally posted it during what seems to have been an outage, and I assume the original is lost... On Feb 5, 20:16, Chuck McManis wrote: > I'd send to Gary but, you know ... > > Go to the options panel and turn off "use microsoft viewer" and it wont > convert to HTML. It will still "flow" it however. So this message has been > "flowed" by Eudora, can anyone confirm or deny that it is in HTML or RTF? > (I see it as having two change bar type things on the left side. Neither, it's flat text; no HTML, no attachments. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 6 17:17:34 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000206155908.00b5fdd0@206.231.8.2> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000206181734.3ccf38cc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, Has anyone got a manual for one of these? I picked one up with three pods (z-80, 8085 and 6800) but didn't get a manual. Joe From aek at spies.com Sun Feb 6 17:04:41 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter Message-ID: <200002062304.PAA30269@spies.com> "Has anyone got a manual for one of these?" Yes, I have extensive documentation at www.spies.com/arcade/schematics along with a lot of other information classiccmp folke will find usefu. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 6 17:18:57 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? Message-ID: <200002062318.SAA15586@world.std.com> ; frommac@Wireless.Com on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 11:18:55AM -0800<20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <03b701bf70fd$884dcc60$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Mike, > I don't mind a subject thing, but maybe shorter? PLEASE NO, NOT AT ALL! Just look at the subject line of this message already, and I've seen worse on later messages. If Majordomo could delete the extra "Re: [ClassicCMP]" tags, leaving a single "[ClassicCMP]" (followed by "Re:" as required) then fine. As it is, the current system makes a mess of the subject column making it difficult to see message titles. With the amount of traffic this list generates anything which makes it easier to decide which messages to read and which not to read is highly desirable - the current proliferation of superfluous tags makes it considerably more difficult. :-( As other people have pointed out, all mailers which allow sorting of mail into folders will allow you to sort on various fields in the header. All you have to do is look for the mailing list address in the "To:" field.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From ss at allegro.com Sun Feb 6 18:19:50 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: [CC] Tags are great In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002070020.QAA09817@opus.allegro.com> Re: > This is the way it should be. The linux-usb, bsd-usb, and irda lists all > use tags, and are very helpful. But needless. A decent mail program can filter based on sender, so the message subject is redundant information. That should be "QED", but... > As for this robbing people of 4 characters on the subject: line - gimme a > break! It matters! Pegasus (3.12), even on a 21" monitor running 1600x1200 seems to refuse to display more than about 35 characters of subject heading in a folder (no matter how wide I resize that column of the window) ...why? I don't know! In short, when people complain...sometimes it's because they have a valid reason to complain. (Sometimes, of course, they don't :) sieler@allegro.com Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From mbg at world.std.com Sun Feb 6 18:19:52 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? Message-ID: <200002070019.TAA16359@world.std.com> >In RT-11, full MSCP support post-dates even 5.1. 5.1 works with RQDX1/2, >but not RQDX3, for example; because whoever wrote the DU: handler ignored >the MSCP documentation and made an unwarranted assumption about the >contents of the SA register during initialisation. It took me ages to >trace the problem and fix it :-). MSCP support was added in V5.0 -- but there were some problems, not the least of which was the fact that it setup the interface such that if you didn't do any disk access for a minute, the disk would go off line. This was corrected in a patch for V5.0 and in the distributed V5.1, at which time it also worked with RQDX2... support for RQDX3 and other similar interfaces wasn't out until V5.2... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sun Feb 6 18:22:49 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? Message-ID: <200002070022.TAA17842@world.std.com> >Dont tell mine RT11 V5.01c system then as the RQDX3 runs just fine. To >the best of my knowlege RQDXn are interchangeable (I have done that) with >one exception... the drive must be formatted for the RQDX3 as it's >apparently different from the 1/2. Full RQDX3 support was not in the *base* system until V5.2. Prior to that, it was a patch release for V5.1, which is why it works in V5.1c Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Feb 6 18:39:19 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: TF85 internals Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000206163707.01be0b90@mcmanis.com> This apparently didn't make it out to the list. I was cleaning a TF85 (DSSI desktop model) and discovered that the drive talks to a bridgeboard that talks DSSI. The connector to the drive is the same number of pins as the TK70 drive. My question is whether or not one can drive the TK85 mechanism from a TQK70. I ask because I would like to put the drive inside a cabinet (BA213) and would rather not have the bridge board laying in there as well. --Chuck From Mzthompson at aol.com Sun Feb 6 18:54:46 2000 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: Ping Message-ID: <7b.13e8c91.25cf71d6@aol.com> Upon the date 12:13 PM 2/6/00 -0800, Zane H. Healy said something like: >> The list still here? I have a hard time believing zero posts since last >> night. And then Christian Fandt graciously replied, astutely noting that: > Well, everybody was plumb wore out from all the list operation discussions :-) Boy, I'll say. I skim through the digest keying on the text 'Subject:'. I wore out one mouse trying to get through the likes of: : Subject: Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line : >> I am aware of no mail filters which only allow filtering on Subject:. > Seems to work very well now! May even be good enough to discuss the collection, restoration, and sharing of knowledge about classic computers. I have been on this list since mid-97, and Zane & Chris probably just as long, if not longer. We all know that we don't need '[ClassicCMP]' in the subject line since we have done without for this long. I for one will not debate it beyond this one posting, because it being or not being there makes no difference to me. I might suggest that if there are those wanting to debate it further and if Jay is willing, then set up another list classicmp-admin and discuss away. Meanwhile back at the ranch, I took the trash from my wife's shop out back to the dumpster. I noticed a mouse (two-button, not four-legged) in the dumpster. That led to a keyboard and on to a 386 PC. I know, I know, whoopee! Hey another spare mouse, keyboard, floppy drive never hurts. And there is a small chance that I will soon be hauling home a stack of DECstation 5000's and associated goodies. And one last soapbox point. I do not recall any postings yet, thanking Jay for all the efforts with regards to the list. Given all the flak, I would probably have used the ON/OFF switch by now. Why don't we flood this list one last time with some words of appreciation, and then you can tell all of us about your latest finds, etc. Mike Thompson From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 6 18:53:30 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter In-Reply-To: <200002062304.PAA30269@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000206195330.21bf09fe@mailhost.intellistar.net> Al, Great! Thanks. BTW did you ever send me the payment for the DEC books? I'm not sure I ever got it. Joe At 03:04 PM 2/6/00 -0800, you wrote: >"Has anyone got a manual for one of these?" > >Yes, I have extensive documentation at www.spies.com/arcade/schematics along >with a lot of other information classiccmp folke will find usefu. > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Feb 6 19:05:02 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? In-Reply-To: Allison J Parent "Re: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives?" (Feb 6, 18:18) References: <200002062318.SAA15586@world.std.com> Message-ID: <10002070105.ZM9913@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 6, 18:18, Allison J Parent wrote: > > define full? Supports all the QBus controllers. OK, that's not very full :-) > > Dont tell mine RT11 V5.01c system then as the RQDX3 runs just fine. To > the best of my knowlege RQDXn are interchangeable Maybe it depends on the firmware then, but I can assure you that the bug certainly exists, and lots of people other than me found it and suffered from it. The particular bug is that the RQDXn (and other MSCP controllers) return some flags in the top 4 bits of the SA register during initialisation. On the RQDX1 and RQDX2, the rest of the register contains zeros, and the driver code depends on that -- IIRC, there are three places where it does a BNE on the result. The RQDX3 of the same vintage as 5.01, however, returns the interrupt vector in the bottom bits of SA, so the BNE doesn't work as desired. Actually, there's slightly more to it than that, but that's the basics. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From KB9VU at aol.com Sun Feb 6 19:54:03 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request Message-ID: <26.1842b62.25cf7fbb@aol.com> I have a box of 10+ used hard sector floppies and a box of new hard sector disks for you. 8^) Mike, KB9VU CCA# 404 MARS AFA3BO Florissant, MO From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Feb 6 18:15:50 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST References: <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20000205020448.24621.qmail@brouhaha.com> <002401bf70de$f82e55a0$91d993c3@proteus> <20000206154429.A14667@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <047a01bf7119$372117e0$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Rich, > If we do end up bouncing MIME'd messages, please don't block >PGP/MIME signatures.... Excellent points. It's starting to sound complicated though, is Majordomo going to be able to handle this, or is modifying it going to be a BIG job? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Feb 6 18:40:19 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: [CC] Tags are great References: Message-ID: <047d01bf7119$39ae2b60$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Mike, > If people had chosen to be observant, they would have noticed >-no- other subject had multiple tags inserted, even when >following-up. Yes, but that was difficult to see when viewing the message titles together in a thread. Which was what my objection to this was all about. > Again, I don't see what the issue is for inserting [C] or [CC] >at the beginning. Well, as long as the "[xxxx]" tag were to always appear only at the beginning of the subject line then I don't see a problem either, IE "[xxxx] Subject" or "[xxxx] Re: Subject". I'm certainly not a fan of such tags, but as long as they're used sensibly and don't become a problem then I personally don't care about them. > (Or should I pop into flippant mode: what, -you- don't use 132 >-column screens to read your email! How primitive!) ;-) Naa, only about 100 odd here.... ;-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Feb 6 20:25:18 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: <200001262244218.SM00188@kernst> <3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Joe, >....As you've probably figured out by now, the 150s aren't >entirely IBM compatible.... I think that qualifies as the biggest understatement of the year so far. :-)) >....If your machine is a box with squared corners and the >expansion cards are mounted vertical behind the monitor then >it's a TouchScreen II.... I can't speak for the person who posted the original message, but that's certainly the machine I have. >....If the machine has nice rounded edges and the expansion cards >are horizontal in the bottom then it's the original HP 150.... If that's the one which looks very much like the terminals HP supply with their HP 3000 series mainframes then I'd very much like to get my hands on one (not to mention an HP-120 or 125). >....Both drives are AC powered. The HP 9123 drive is exactly the >same as the 9122 except that it has no power supply and gets it's >power from the TS II.... Hmm, that sounds like the drive box I have (dual drive version) - I can't actually get to it to check right now though. > The Touch Screen feature is standard on the 150 but optional on >the TS-II. Strange! I've never seen a Touch Screen on a TS-II. I >don't think many buyers added it. That's my theory too. I know Tony's seen a few, but all the unit's I've seen (admittedly only a handfull) hadn't had the touch screen added - though I suppose they could've been removed and been sold off seperately. > Let me know if you have any specific questions. Well, at the moment what I really want is to find somewhere in the UK where I can find some RAM boards for it (I have none) and a hard drive - preferably without having to part with an arm and a leg. Oh, are the rear panels hard to come by, mine is missing? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Feb 6 19:29:20 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: AS400-C10 References: Message-ID: <047e01bf7119$3a7795e0$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Paul, > By the look of the IBM docs, the >C10 models appear to support >more than one bus, so it could very well be. This is the thing, I don't know whether the bus in the expansion cabinet constitutes and extension to the existing bus or another bus altogether. Sadly I have NO documentation other than that ".pdf" handbook I grabbed from IBMs site. :-( > Someone was kind enough to handwrite a 16 hexadecimal digit number >labeled "Sys Pw" on the inside of the case. Does that sound the >right format for a system security number? >From the little I know I'd guess that sounds correct. I don't have the number for mine, and I'm having a devil of a time finding out how to find out the number (IYKWIM). >....It is not the serial number which like on a RS/6000 appears on >the front panel in a xx-xxxxx format. Uh oh, do RS series machines need some type of system security number too then? > Mine also does not want to boot, but I believe that is because I >don't have a console hooked up yet. Yes, you do indeed need a console attached to the system in order for it to boot. >....I had to disassemble the whole machine to get the pedestal unit >light enough to lift into my trunk/back seat. I left the boards in mine when I came to move it, but I did have to take out all the drives and the power supplies. Even then it wasn't exactly easy to shift. > I took apart what appeared to be the CPU board last night.... I haven't gotten up the courage to do that myself yet. That said I'm going to have to take all of the modules in mine apart and give them a good cleaning - the amount of dust and gunge in the machine is incredible. > I did not see anything that resembled RAM anywhere but on the >main CPU board, so I assume mine has the default 8 meg of memory. I was wondering where the RAM was on the thing, from what I've been able to find out thus far none of the cards in mine appear to be RAM boards. > I worked at a city hall as an intern in college in the early 90's >and wrote various RPG queries on the AS400. I probably have not >touched an AS400 since. I haven't touched a working system myself since '98. I was working at a local engineering company looking after several HP mainframes - I forget the exact model numbers but ISTR they were 3000 series machines (they ran MPE/ix anyway) - and we had an AS/400 which was about to be decomissioned when I started there....and it was still there when I left. I never got ANY training on the thing. All I knew how to do was to initiate the monthly BACS transfer and print off our pay slips. :-( > Thanks, and keep me posted if you have any progress. No problem, but with all the other projects I have on my plate this one keeps getting pushed aside for another day. :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Feb 6 18:23:49 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: HTML in Email References: <200002062134.QAA09079@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <047b01bf7119$37f22380$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Sean, > Unless you were on the list in January of 1999, you wouldn't >have seen the message I quoted.... Sorry, I didn't realise the quote was from such an old message. I didn't join the list until last May. > He was saying that HTML *itself* only adds about 5% to plain >text.... Fair enough, I didn't realise that. I thought he was referring to the overall size of the HTML encoded message. >....but most of these so called HTML editors are really bad and >bloat the HTML out quite a bit. Tell me about it. Since I haven't take the time to sit down and learn HTML coding yet I use FrontPage, you want to look at that for a prime example of bloated HTML production....I've heard tales of some pages being three times larger than they could be mentioned in the FP newsgroup. :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Feb 6 19:32:07 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: AS400-C10 References: Message-ID: <047f01bf7119$3b51c940$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Zane, > Anyone got a URL for this? Sorry, I found it on IBM's website after a LOT of rummaging around. I'll see if I can't figure out roughly where I found it and get back to you. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Feb 6 20:39:17 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: Message-ID: <048101bf7119$3cf56720$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > I've never seen a combined RAM and HPIL board. Are you >_sure_ ? Well, I've never seen one, but the HP-150 FAQ mentions a "45915A: 384k RAM memory with HP-HIL interface". I haven't really done any digging on the HP yet, all I know is what I've learnt by reading the FAQ. > The add-on cards I have are: OK, the FAQ mentions the following cards: 45630A: 128k RAM memory expansion 45631A: 256k RAM memory expansion 45632A: 384k RAM memory expansion 45915A: 384k RAM memory with HP-HIL interface 45890A: Expanded memory board with 512k of RAM 45891A: Additional 256k RAM for board. and 45914A: HP-HIL card for the 150A and 150B. 45643A: HP-IL and parallel printer interface board. 45640A: 1200 baud modem card for HP 150A/B 45640B: 1200 baud modem card for HP 150 II. I've no idea how exhaustive list this is, I'd guess not very since the 2Mb RAM board you have isn't mentioned. >> (I've NEVER seen a machine with the touch screen BTW). > > I can confirm that it does exist, at least for the 150-II. No, I wasn't suggesting it didn't - just that for some reason all the ones I've ever seen (at radio rallies mostly) have been without the touch screen.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From mew_jac at swbell.net Sun Feb 6 21:13:43 2000 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: Convex Mini-SuperComputer Message-ID: <0FPJ00CZKIATDF@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> If any of the serious Big Iron collectors are interested in a Convex there is one being decommissioned in Houston. This will be a large hall. If no one picks this thing up it will sit in the Houston weather for a year or so and be melted down. This is the second Convex I've run across in the last few months, surely not many more left. If your serious about moving a few thousand pounds of supercomputer Email me for the details. -- From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Feb 6 21:20:30 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: HP System available in Oregon Message-ID: Don't ask any specifics, I don't know them, and I've not seen the system. The Hillsboro "Wacky Willies" currenty has a largish HP system in back (you'd have to ask about it, I was in there yesterday and didn't even see it as they've blocked of the entire back half of the store). From what I was told it's at least one 19" rack, and bunch of terminals, lots of documentation, and I think tapes. I gather it might be something like a 735? Again, I know nothing about this system, someone I know that messes with DEC and Sun stuff spotted it and thought I might know someone that's interested. He said it's *over* a pickup worth of stuff! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bsa3 at cornell.edu Sun Feb 6 21:22:22 2000 From: bsa3 at cornell.edu (Brad Ackerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: Apple manuals available for download Message-ID: <20000206222222.A22161@cornell.edu> Apple has released about thirteen years worth of product manuals in Acrobat format; the URL is . Unfortunately, the covered time period starts with the IIci and Portable, which are topical by the ten-year rule, but we can always hope for more... -- Brad Ackerman N1MNB "You're a cyborg -- look it up." bsa3@cornell.edu Wandering Gweep -- Bradley Rhodes, to Josh Weaver PGP: 0x62D6B223 http://skaro.pair.com/ IAP lecture, 21 January 2000 From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 6 20:45:58 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: Wanted: software & docs for Intel Series II & III MDS "blue boxes" Message-ID: <20000207024558.5705.qmail@brouhaha.com> I just acquired an Intel Series III MDS "blue box", to go along with several Series IIs that I've had for a while. Unfortunately, I don't have any software or documentation for either the Series II or Series III, not even the ISIS operating system. If anyone has spares or could make copies available, it would be most appreciated. For those not familiar with the Intel blue boxes: The Series II MDS is Multibus-based, and has either an IPB-80 or IPC-85 CPU card, based on the 8080 and 8085, respectively. There's also an IOC (Input/Output Card) that supports all of the integral I/O devices such as the monitor, keyboard, serial ports, and single-density floppy disk. An external double-density floppy disk system can be added; it uses two Multibus cards, a channel card and an interface card, and apparently uses M2FM code rather than IBM 3740-compatible MFM. The Series II normally runs the ISIS operating system, although I hear there was also a version of CP/M. A Series III MDS is mostly the same as a Series II with an IPC-85, but it adds a two-board RPC-86, which is an 8086-based "Resident Processor Card". A software package called "RUN" acts as the loader and ISIS operating system interface for the 8086. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Feb 6 21:32:40 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <20000206.213242.185.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: Could any of you use a few RL02K-DC disk packs? I have three of them, shock-watches intact on two-- the third one doesn't have it. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Feb 6 21:43:10 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: TF85 internals In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000206163707.01be0b90@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: >This apparently didn't make it out to the list. > >I was cleaning a TF85 (DSSI desktop model) and discovered that the drive >talks to a bridgeboard that talks DSSI. The connector to the drive is the >same number of pins as the TK70 drive. My question is whether or not one >can drive the TK85 mechanism from a TQK70. I ask because I would like to >put the drive inside a cabinet (BA213) and would rather not have the bridge >board laying in there as well. > >--Chuck Hmmm, a TF85 would be the DSSI version of the TK85 (not sure that's the right name), which is either a DLT2000 or DLT4000, _I THINK_. Makes me wonder if the DLT drives have an interface into which you plug the hardware that determines what kind of drive interface it talks to into (i.e. Single Ended SCSI, Differental SCSI, DSSI, etc.). Unfortuantly when I've torn DLT7000's apart I don't tend to take time to notice such details so I'm really not sure what the interface looks about. Having said all that, I'd recommend you don't try it. If it works that's a good drive to have, and worth getting a DSSI interface if you don't already have one. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Feb 6 21:43:53 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? In-Reply-To: <10002062211.ZM8839@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: >I've never done an install from tape, except to recover a backup, and then >what matters is what standalone BRU or DSC supports. In 4.2 at least, BRU >and BRU64K.SYS (the standalone) do support MSCP, but the manual only lists >RA80/RA60/RA81/RC25/RD51/RX50 disks (and no MSCP tapes at all). DSC only >supports the RA80; standalone DSC has no MSCP support at all in 4.2. I'd >expect 4.0 supports even less. Wouldn't those be TMSCP tapes (it's T-something at least, I'm to tired to look it up, or remember)? V4.2 works just fine with TK50's, I've booted and restored it off TK50. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From marvin at rain.org Sun Feb 6 22:34:20 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: Thanks Jay Message-ID: <389E4B4C.F6DFE9B5@rain.org> I just thought it appropriate to say a public thanks to Jay for all the work done on the list in bringing it back up. It is MUCH appreciated!!! From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Feb 6 22:25:10 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: "Peter Pachla"'s message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2000 02:39:17 -0000" References: <048101bf7119$3cf56720$91d993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <200002070425.UAA86423@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Peter Pachla" wrote: > No, I wasn't suggesting it didn't - just that for some reason all the ones > I've ever seen (at radio rallies mostly) have been without the touch > screen.... By the time of the Touchscreen II, lots of us who had deployed 150A/Bs had concluded that while the 150 wasn't that bad, touch screens were not all that they were cracked up to be. You had to take a hand off the keyboard and reach up and touch the screen, and if you had to do this a lot it resulted in a sort of fatigue that was called "gorilla arm", and there were usually ways to do what you wanted from the keyboard (either a function key or tab around some and then press a function key or Enter). So most users didn't bother with it after the novelty wore off. So when it became an extra-cost option we really couldn't see paying for it. Besides, who wants a bunch of fingertip-sized smudges on the screen? -Frank McConnell From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Feb 6 23:11:41 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: "Peter Pachla"'s message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2000 02:25:18 -0000" References: <200001262244218.SM00188@kernst> <3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net> <048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <200002070511.VAA87749@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Peter Pachla" wrote: > If that's the one which looks very much like the terminals HP supply with > their HP 3000 series mainframes then I'd very much like to get my hands on > one (not to mention an HP-120 or 125). There are two styles of 150. One is the 150A/B, and in rough outline it looks something like a 120 or 2382 terminal but does have different casework from those. These models have a 9-inch display screen; I think the only differences between A and B are the ROM'd firmware and accompanying MS-DOS version (and I do recall that it was possible to upgrade a 150A to a 150B with a firmware-and-software swap) but someone else may know better. Then there is the 150-II aka 150C aka Touchscreen II. It's in a boxy enclosure with tiltable 12" display screen. I think the 2392 terminal might have similar styling (2393 does not, it uses the 37531A pale green-screen monitor with the terminal logic in a separate box). After HP introduced the Vectra (PC-compatible, at least more so than the 150) and 150 sales dropped off, and ran out of 2647F terminals, HP started shipping 150-IIs as consoles for /68 and /70 systems. (Maybe /64s too.) Unfortunately I have no idea what kind of terminals HP sell these days. 700/9x? I don't think they ever made a 150 that looks like those, although they did make some monochrome VGA monitors in a similarly-styled case. -Frank McConnell From edick at idcomm.com Sun Feb 6 23:32:01 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: Thanks Jay Message-ID: <000c01bf712c$a99865e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, indeed! Hats off to Jay! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: Classic Computers Date: Sunday, February 06, 2000 9:54 PM Subject: Thanks Jay > >I just thought it appropriate to say a public thanks to Jay for all the work >done on the list in bringing it back up. It is MUCH appreciated!!! From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Feb 7 08:55:01 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <200002070425.UAA86423@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <"Peter Pachla"'s message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2000 02:39:17 -0000"> <048101bf7119$3cf56720$91d993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000207095501.3e4713e4@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:25 PM 2/6/00 -0800, Frank wrote: > >By the time of the Touchscreen II, lots of us who had deployed 150A/Bs >had concluded that while the 150 wasn't that bad, touch screens were >not all that they were cracked up to be. You had to take a hand off >the keyboard and reach up and touch the screen, and if you had to do >this a lot it resulted in a sort of fatigue that was called "gorilla >arm", I feel that same way about using a mouse. I use the WinDoze keyboard short cuts as much as possible. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Feb 7 08:51:40 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: Wanted: software & docs for Intel Series II & III MDS "blue boxes" In-Reply-To: <20000207024558.5705.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000207095140.3e479b52@mailhost.intellistar.net> Eric, I have a Series II model 235 with lots of upgrades. I have a big pile of stuff for the Series II. Here's a list: Intellec Series II CRT and Keyboard Interface Manual Intellec Series II Microcomputer Development System Boot/Monitor Listing Intellec Series II Model 22X/23X Installation Manual Change 1 Installation Instructions Double Density Upgrade Kit Model 503 Rev B Intellec Double Density Diskette Operating System Hardware Reference Manual Book 2. (It's here somewhere! Just gotta find it!) Book 3. PL/M-86 Programming Manual for 8080/8085-Based Development Systems #9800466-003 Rev C MCS-86 Assembly Language Converter Operating Instructions for ISIS-II Users #9800642-02 ASM86 Macro Assembler Operating Instructions for 8086-Bases Systems #121628-003 iAPX 86,88 Family Utilities User’s Guide # 121616-003 iAPX 86,88 Family Utilities User’s Guide # 121616-002 ASM86 Language Reference Manual #121703-002 Book 4. Intellec Series III Microcomputer Development System Product Overview Intellec Series III Microcomputer Development System Programmer’s Reference Manual ISIS Credit CRT-based Text Editor User’s Guide Alter Text Editor User’s Guide iUP-200/201 Universal Programmer User’s Guide Order Number 162613-002 iUP-200/201 Universal Programmer User’s Guide Order Number 162613-001 ICE-86 In-Circuit Emulator Operating Instructions for ISIS-II Users ICE-86A/ICE-88A MicroSystem In-Circuit Emulator Operating Instructions for ISIS-II Users Book 5. ASM86 Language Reference Manual #121703-002 8086/8087/8088 Macro Assembly Language Reference Manual for 8086-Based Development Systems #121627-001 Rev A MCS-86 Assembly Language Converter Operating Instructions for ISIS-II Users ICE-86 In-Circuit Emulator Operating Instructions for ISIS-II Users iAPX 86,88 Family Utilities User’s Guide for 8086-Based Development Systems #121616-001 Rev A ISIS-II User’s Guide Book 6. Intellec Series II Microcomputer Developement System Schematic Drawings Order Number 9800554-04 Rev D Book 7. Intellec Series II Microcomputer Developement System Double-Density Diskette Subsystem Order Number 9800425-02 Rev B Book 8. Product Service Support Plan, product MDS-5055 (internal Intel Document) Book 9. A guide to Intellec Microcomputer Developement Systems Order Number 9800558B I also have a bunch of software for it but I haven't made a list. I think all the SW is on DD 8" disks. At 02:45 AM 2/7/00 -0000, you wrote: >I just acquired an Intel Series III MDS "blue box", to go along with >several Series IIs that I've had for a while. > >Unfortunately, I don't have any software or documentation for either >the Series II or Series III, not even the ISIS operating system. If >anyone has spares or could make copies available, it would be most >appreciated. > >For those not familiar with the Intel blue boxes: > >The Series II MDS is Multibus-based, and has either an IPB-80 or IPC-85 >CPU card, based on the 8080 and 8085, respectively. Yes, they came with a 8080 but the 8085 card was available as an upgrade. Mine has it. There's also an IOC >(Input/Output Card) that supports all of the integral I/O devices such >as the monitor, keyboard, serial ports, and single-density floppy disk. >An external double-density floppy disk system can be added; The internal drives could also be upgraded to DD. See the 4th book above. Mine has been upgraded. I also have an external box with two DD drives. it uses two >Multibus cards, a channel card and an interface card, and apparently uses >M2FM code rather than IBM 3740-compatible MFM. The Series II normally runs >the ISIS operating system, although I hear there was also a version of CP/M. I've never found CPM for them but if you read Digital Research's CPM manuals you'll notice that the CPM source code that they use was written for an Intel MDS. > >A Series III MDS is mostly the same as a Series II with an IPC-85, but >it adds a two-board RPC-86, which is an 8086-based "Resident Processor >Card". A software package called "RUN" acts as the loader and ISIS >operating system interface for the 8086. I don't don't have that. :-( Let me know if you want to borrow this stuff. Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Feb 7 09:01:19 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <200002070511.VAA87749@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <"Peter Pachla"'s message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2000 02:25:18 -0000"> <200001262244218.SM00188@kernst> <3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net> <048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000207100119.3e47fa9a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:11 PM 2/6/00 -0800, Frank wrote: >"Peter Pachla" wrote: >> If that's the one which looks very much like the terminals HP supply with >> their HP 3000 series mainframes then I'd very much like to get my hands on >> one (not to mention an HP-120 or 125). I have both. I like the little one better. The 120 takes up too much room. The 125 is the same size as the HP 9816 (aka 9000 216.) > >There are two styles of 150. One is the 150A/B, and in rough outline >it looks something like a 120 or 2382 terminal but does have different >casework from those. These models have a 9-inch display screen; I >think the only differences between A and B are the ROM'd firmware and >accompanying MS-DOS version (and I do recall that it was possible to >upgrade a 150A to a 150B with a firmware-and-software swap) but >someone else may know better. You're correct. You had to install the later firmware before you could use MS-DOS 3.x I think the later firmware also supports more drive types. I still have one upgrade kit here somewhere. > >Then there is the 150-II aka 150C aka Touchscreen II. It's in a boxy >enclosure with tiltable 12" display screen. I think the 2392 terminal >might have similar styling (2393 does not, it uses the 37531A pale >green-screen monitor with the terminal logic in a separate box). I think that's the 2793 box. I shipped some to Stan P. last year. > >After HP introduced the Vectra (PC-compatible, at least more so than >the 150) and 150 sales dropped off, and ran out of 2647F terminals, HP >started shipping 150-IIs as consoles for /68 and /70 systems. (Maybe >/64s too.) > >Unfortunately I have no idea what kind of terminals HP sell these >days. 700/9x? They did sell a lot of 700/92 s. I don't know if that's still the current model or not. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Feb 7 08:33:23 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> References: <200001262244218.SM00188@kernst> <3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000207093323.3e4737e6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Pete, >I can't speak for the person who posted the original message, but that's >certainly the machine I have. > > >....If the machine has nice rounded edges and the expansion cards > >are horizontal in the bottom then it's the original HP 150.... > >If that's the one which looks very much like the terminals HP supply with >their HP 3000 series mainframes then I'd very much like to get my hands on >one (not to mention an HP-120 or 125). What model termainal are you for? I have no idea what they supply with the 3000 but I see piles of 700/92 terminals in a local scrap yard. I have several 35712s (I think that's the right number). > > >....Both drives are AC powered. The HP 9123 drive is exactly the > >same as the 9122 except that it has no power supply and gets it's > >power from the TS II.... > >Hmm, that sounds like the drive box I have (dual drive version) - I can't >actually get to it to check right now though. It probably is. They seem to be standard with the TS-II. BTW some of these models had different names in Europe. I don't remember the details now but I did see a message showing the differences once. It's just something that you may want to keep in mind when you start discussing them. > > > > The Touch Screen feature is standard on the 150 but optional on > >the TS-II. Strange! I've never seen a Touch Screen on a TS-II. I > >don't think many buyers added it. > >That's my theory too. I know Tony's seen a few, but all the unit's I've seen >(admittedly only a handfull) hadn't had the touch screen added - though I >suppose they could've been removed and been sold off seperately. If they did, then they replaced the bezel with a non-Touch Screen one. > > > > Let me know if you have any specific questions. > >Well, at the moment what I really want is to find somewhere in the UK where >I can find some RAM boards for it (I have none) and a hard drive - >preferably without having to part with an arm and a leg. I have plenty of hard drives. What model are you looking for? I have one here that has TS-II software already on it, I could probably copy it to another one for you. BTW I'm in Florida. Do you know anyone that's coming to Orlando that could bring one back to you? They're not exactly light. RAM: You should see if Tony can find a way to install 256K ics instead of the 64K ones. Most (all?) of the the Touch Screens that I see have 512K or less. I've never seen one with expanded memory. Oh, are the rear >panels hard to come by, mine is missing? Hmmm. I don't know where you'd get one without buying the whole machine but ask Jeff Kaneko ("jeff.kaneko@juno.com". I think he located a pile of TS-IIs a year or so ago. He may be able to send you a panel. > > > TTFN - Pete. > >-- >Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. >Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > >peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk >-- > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Feb 7 08:21:14 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <048101bf7119$3cf56720$91d993c3@proteus> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000207092114.3cbfc07a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:39 AM 2/7/00 -0000, you wrote: > > The add-on cards I have are: > >OK, the FAQ mentions the following cards: There seems to be a lot of third party cards for these as well. Several of mine have cards made by Evergreen in them. Joe From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Feb 7 08:11:54 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: Good work Jay! Message-ID: <4.1.20000207090809.00b3ec90@206.231.8.2> Hi Jay, Thanks much for your hosting of the classiccmp list! Thanks also for enduring the discussions regarding the "new" vs. "old" methods and HTML blocking, etc.! Some interesting bits of info came out of the many postings. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Feb 7 09:24:11 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: Batch OCR'ing from GIF's/TIFF's/bitmaps? Message-ID: <000207102411.25600835@trailing-edge.com> Folks on this list have expressed strong opinions in the past on the subject of how to best OCR old important documents. Recent donations to the DECUS archives here have resulted in several important abstract books that I want to link electronically (i.e. by HTTP) to the files already rescued from magnetic or punched paper media. (See, for example, http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/index.html for the TOPS-10 abstracts linked to the files from DECUS library tapes.) I've spent the past weekend playing with scanners and OCR on PC-clones running various Microsoft OS's. And, of course, I'm extremely unhappy with the point-and-drool misery of doing all of this - there's no reason I should have to click with the mouse for every single page I need converted. So the question: does anyone have recommendations (preferably for freeware, though I would be willing to spend a few hundred dollars for good tools, too) for software that will process already-scanned .GIF's/TIFF's/bitmaps through the OCR process unattended? Ideally there'd be a command line interface, something like ocr page*.gif > bigoutputfile.txt and ideally it would run under Linux as well, though I wouldn't complain too strongly if someone recommended a Windows solution. If it does run under Linux, it'd be *very* nice for batch processing if it didn't need X11 and mouse-point-and-drool interfacing. Tim. (shoppa@trailing-edge.com) From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Feb 7 09:47:04 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: From Usenet: pdp-8 Available Message-ID: <200002071547.HAA03170@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: Found on Usenet. Contact the poster directly. Kevin ----------------- I have an original model PDP-8 (core serial number 35) which I no longer have space for. It's the tabletop model with smoked plastic covers. I would like to give it to a museum that could take care of it and hopefully display it. If any of you know of a place that would be interested, please let me know. Thanks. Philip Lantz prl@mira.rain.com From west at tseinc.com Mon Feb 7 10:14:08 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: List server going down for maintenance Message-ID: <003701bf7186$5cf0bb20$d402a8c0@tse.com> Due to the hardware problems on the system that hosts the classiccmp list over the weekend, that machine will be going down for maintenance sometime today. The outtage is expected to last 2 hours at most. Regards, Jay West From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Feb 7 08:16:38 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: Thanks Jay Message-ID: <20000207.101611.-311713.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> I'll second that! Thanks Jay!! Jeff On Sun, 06 Feb 2000 20:34:20 -0800 Marvin writes: > > I just thought it appropriate to say a public thanks to Jay for all > the work > done on the list in bringing it back up. It is MUCH appreciated!!! ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Feb 7 11:24:20 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: Free Macintosh Classic Message-ID: Hi all, I've got a buddy with a Classic and Stylewriter that he's about to dumpster...does anyone want to pay postage on one of these? Or you can arrange to pick it up (I'm in Southern California - Glendora). Cheers, Aaron From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Feb 7 12:01:03 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: Token ring cards available Message-ID: <389F085E.35129E5B@bigfoot.com> Have 3 token ring cards to get rid of, nice ISA types that I assume are plug-n-play capable. They are as follows: 1) Intel token Express Pro 16/4 with manual. Has 9 pin din and RJ45 ports Jumperless card, 16 bit ISA 1) 3 Com 3C619B TokenLink III 16/4. Has status led's and 9 pin din and rj45 ports. Jumperless card, 16 bit ISA 1) 3Com 3C319 TokenLink Velocity ISA 16/4. Has status led's and 9 pin din and rj45 ports. Jumperless 16 bit ISA All drivers are available on Intel and 3Com's websites as well as manuals in PDF format. Cards are from working machines that got pulled off the network to become standalone units. They do not come with cables. Make me an offer or either cash or useful common PC items. Russ Blakeman Clarkson, KY From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Feb 7 12:29:48 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: SCSI floptical drive Message-ID: <20000207122948.P12002@mrbill.net> I picked up an external SCSI 21mb floptical drive (by PLI) this weekend; anybody have a use for it, or know where I can get media? Bill -- +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@pdp11.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | | http://www.sunhelp.org | http://www.pdp11.org | http://www.mrbill.net | +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Mon Feb 7 12:55:03 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: DEC stuff for trade Message-ID: I was at the local not-for-profit computer surplus and picked up the following DEC stuff 1. 2 TK25 tape drives in desktop cases 2. RD53 labeled disk drive although the disk inside the MicroVAX 2000 style case says RD52 3. tk50Z tape drive inside MicroVAX 2000 case 4. MicroVAX 2000 disk case 5. vax3100 style low profile expansion case 6. micro PDP 11/73+ in floor stand, the pdp 11/73+ boards are spoken for, probably running RSX-11M because of the number of terminal connections on the back of the machine. Anyone want the disk and case ? 7. micro pdp 11/23+ in floor stand, runs RSX-11M, boots and 8. 3 VT320's with keyboards Anyone interested, you pay minimal amount plus shipping? 1. I also picked up a AT&T Unix PC that boots up but is missing the keyboard, anybody know about compatible keyboards? 2. a HP 9862A pen plotter for desktop calculator, dust cover, an manual, but no cable 3. TI system 1100 that has 2 MB memory, dc300 tape, 5 1/4 floppy, and full height 5 1/4 internal disk drive I have my eyes on TK86 and TK867, both in deskside floor stands, before they go to China, are they currently usable? I also saw from afar some type of modular terminal connectors, I could read writing that says 90+ on them, they have a row of rj45 jacks on them and look like there are 4 or 5 mounted on plastic panel. Any idea what they are? Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Feb 7 14:11:39 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: <047b01bf7119$37f22380$91d993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <200002071913.UAA14855@mail2.siemens.de> > > He was saying that HTML *itself* only adds about 5% to plain > >text.... > Fair enough, I didn't realise that. I thought he was referring to the > overall size of the HTML encoded message. > >....but most of these so called HTML editors are really bad and > >bloat the HTML out quite a bit. > Tell me about it. Since I haven't take the time to sit down and learn HTML > coding yet I use FrontPage, you want to look at that for a prime example of > bloated HTML production....I've heard tales of some pages being three times > larger than they could be mentioned in the FP newsgroup. :-( Prime example ? Well, one can name it that way ... I still do 99% of my HTML stuff in notepad - maybe not realy a world class tool, but one get's used to it. And even the German umlauts are not exactly a problem ü unstead of an "u isn't that hard. Anyway, I once _had_ to use Frontpage to modify some pages I did, and they did not only tripple in size, but also these pages didn't render any longer correctly in some browser != MS-Explorer (And last but not least in my case, the code did become completly unreadable - why 1000 times set font attributes if I don't care for fonts at all ?) It is still possible to do Web pages that are readable in any browser type _and_ are still good loocking (assumed you use an actual Lynx version :). Ok, this means that one has to limit himself to real basic structures, and no fancy fonting and gimmicking, and _may_ increase the size more to 15% bigger than plain than including all the ALT tags etc, but it's worth. Well, I just belive I'm again part of a dieing species - even the W3C is about to drop some principles which have been root mechanisms of what's now the WEB. And for the list, I would go for c), the deHTMLifier. I'ts not that hard to programm in perl (or whatever). As for myself, I consider HTML as readable, just it happenes that most of the unwanted HTML stuff is done by MS or MS-alike tools that add way more noise than needed - so cut it off (*) Anyway Gruss H. (*) another way may be to heep the basic tags and just remove all the optional parameters - or, maybe even better use a HTML to Text converter. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Feb 7 13:14:53 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:53 2005 Subject: Batch OCR'ing from GIF's/TIFF's/bitmaps? In-Reply-To: <000207102411.25600835@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000207131453.01691c60@pc> At 10:24 AM 2/7/00 -0500, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >So the question: does anyone have recommendations (preferably for >freeware, though I would be willing to spend a few hundred dollars for >good tools, too) for software that will process already-scanned >.GIF's/TIFF's/bitmaps through the OCR process unattended? Even the circa-1992, Win16, Caere OmniPage 2.11 I have can handle batch-processing an indefinite number of files. In the usual "you'll pay to get what you really want" mode of the software industry, I would guess that there are some very nice five- and six-figure document processing systems that would do the job. - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 12:40:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 7, 0 02:25:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2065 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000207/8288b1ad/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 12:49:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <048101bf7119$3cf56720$91d993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 7, 0 02:39:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2468 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000207/9eddc49d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 12:54:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: Good work Jay! In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000207090809.00b3ec90@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Feb 7, 0 09:11:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 491 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000207/bc6b477c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 12:59:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000207093323.3e4737e6@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 7, 0 09:33:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1360 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000207/40c934df/attachment.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Feb 7 13:37:38 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: DEC stuff for trade In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike" at "Feb 7, 2000 12:55:03 pm" Message-ID: <200002071937.OAA34634@bg-tc-ppp486.monmouth.com> > I was at the local not-for-profit computer surplus and picked up the > following DEC stuff > 1. 2 TK25 tape drives in desktop cases What's the capacity on these -- 150mb? > 6. micro PDP 11/73+ in floor stand, the pdp 11/73+ boards are spoken > for, probably running > RSX-11M because of the number of terminal connections on the back of > the machine. > Anyone want the disk and case ? I've got a couple of 11/23 boards and an RQDX3 (sans cables and stuff) I'd love to get this running. Think the 11/23+ or this 11/73+ would make it a good home. How large is this thing (backplane slots, Q22? etc)? > 7. micro pdp 11/23+ in floor stand, runs RSX-11M, boots and Sounds good... what drives are on this if any? > > Mike > mmcfadden@cmh.edu > > Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bpechter@monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org|pechter@pechter.bsdonline.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 7 13:52:12 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: Batch OCR'ing from GIF's/TIFF's/bitmaps? In-Reply-To: <000207102411.25600835@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/index.html > >for the TOPS-10 abstracts linked to the files from DECUS library >tapes.) Cool! I've got a question though, how was the stuff gotten into the computer in the first place? Not feeling very motivated this morning so I just ported the following to VMS BASIC: 10-190 BATTLESHIP, Version: 2, January 1974 http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0276/index.html Not sure if most of the work required was the result of 'space saving' features of the original platform, or if characters have been lost. There were a LOT of missing spaces, and a couple spots were missing a ';'. I was able to get it compiled on a Alpha, though got some wierd non-fatal errors. One things for sure, it was intended to be played on something like a DECwriter II! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 7 15:52:51 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: <200002071913.UAA14855@mail2.siemens.de> References: <047b01bf7119$37f22380$91d993c3@proteus> Message-ID: >> Tell me about it. Since I haven't take the time to sit down and learn HTML >> coding yet I use FrontPage, you want to look at that for a prime example of >> bloated HTML production....I've heard tales of some pages being three times >> larger than they could be mentioned in the FP newsgroup. :-( > >Prime example ? Well, one can name it that way ... I still do >99% of my HTML stuff in notepad - maybe not realy a world class >tool, but one get's used to it. And even the German umlauts are >not exactly a problem ü unstead of an "u isn't that hard. > >Anyway, I once _had_ to use Frontpage to modify some pages >I did, and they did not only tripple in size, but also these >pages didn't render any longer correctly in some browser != >MS-Explorer (And last but not least in my case, the code did >become completly unreadable - why 1000 times set font attributes >if I don't care for fonts at all ?) You know the amazing thing about this. I'm lazy, but won't use MS products so I use Adobe PageMill 3.0 on a Mac. It's got an option that lets you edit the source when you need to do little tweaks, AND it produces tight readable HTML. I could produce *slightly* smaller documents by hand (literally a few bytes is all), yet it wouldn't look anywhere near as good. The result looks good with old browsers and non-standard browsers, as well as new ones. Although I see the frames version is horrible under Lynx. As far as I'm concerned MS shouldn't be allowed to have any products that have ANYTHING to do with HTML! When I get an E-Mail message written in Outlook Express that contains one short sentence, and an entire page of unreadable garbage somethings is wrong. In the past I've seen message on this list that showed up as a blank page under Eudora Pro on my Mac because they were created with Lookout Express! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 15:59:17 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: JVC GD-H4220US multi-sync monitor help needed Message-ID: <20000207215917.15114.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> I was just gifted with a GD-H4220US monitor that isn't behaving as expected. My best Web research indicates that it is a 19" analog/digital RGB monitor (dual 9-pin connectors and a mode switch) with scan rates of 15-37Khz and 45-87 Hz. I have attached this device to an Amiga 3000, my 486 LRP box and a SPARC2 w/single-width CG6 (via the standard 1395 13W3 adapter). In no case does this monitor give me a locked, stable display. The CG6 does the best, but the top dozen lines do not align, giving a "torn" appearance. The Amiga 3000 (15.75Khz and 31Khz, both) produce at best, two copies of the video, one on the top half of the screen, one on the bottom half. The externally accessible controls are a bank of 4 pots with height, v alignment, width and h alignment icons, labelled A through D; an overscan enable switch; a "cancel preset" switch and the usual bright and contrast controls on the front. I am using two different adapters to convert the monitor's 9-pin RGB to the more common 15-pin high-density connector used today for VGA. One adapter is a short cable, source unknown, the other adapter came with my Amiga 3000. Both adapters produce the same results. I have color, I have video data. I appear to be lacking in the sync department. The only other specs I found on the H4220US is that is is H-V, +ve sync. What I'm not sure about is how common positive sync is these days (it may be the standard for all I know; I've seen negative sync stuff in the past) and whether or not my adapters are properly propogating the sync signals. There is, of course, the possibility that the monitor is defective, but I suspect wiring, first. Can anyone point me to a chart that has the older 9-pin RGB standard? I can verify my adapter, then. Also, I'm not sure what kind of sync a CG6 generates. Can someone shed some light there, too? It's a really awesome monitor, especially for the price. Even with the plastic cover off, it generates no audible noise, unlike every other monitor in the room. One drawback: 2.3A listed draw (4A fuse). That's a lotta watts to keep powered on. I have the covers off at the moment and can find no obvious place to tweak the sync circuit. The manufacturing date is 1989 and it does not appear to be microprocessor controlled. Nothing appears obviously smoked or disconnected. I do not have any documentation to go with this display. Thanks in advance, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 7 17:34:26 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: [CC] Wanted: Macintosh speech program called "Smooth Talker" Message-ID: <20000207233426.42926.qmail@hotmail.com> I am looking for a copy of the old Macintosh speech synthesizer program called "Smooth Talker" from First Byte. I had this program on a floppy that my electronics teacher gave to me last year, but the floppy has since worn out & I have been searching *everywhere* for a copy, but to no avail. If you have a copy, *do not* send me a disk image, as my Mac (original Mac upgraded to Mac Plus specs.) does not recognize them at all. I must ask, however, that it come on an 800K floppy, 400K is not enough space! I am looking for a driver for aforementioned Macintosh for an Apple Color Stylewriter 2400. I don't want that printer to be reduced to dust magnet status! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 17:48:54 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: Batch OCR'ing from GIF's/TIFF's/bitmaps? Message-ID: <20000207234854.27169.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > I've got a question though, how was the stuff gotten into the computer in > the first place? Not feeling very motivated this morning so I just ported > the following to VMS BASIC: > 10-190 BATTLESHIP, Version: 2, January 1974 > http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0276/index.html I just visited this link and was wondering what the crud on the last line of BT.BAS.1 was. Otherwise, good job. I'm sure there's a bunch of us whose early DEC experience was in the form of BASIC games, whether RSTS or OS/8 or whatever, and it all brings back the memories. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Tue Feb 8 17:46:47 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: FS: Mainframe and minicomputer manuals and control panels, and a complete storage technology collection. Message-ID: <002101bf728e$e72753e0$1a80b7d1@kstumpf> If you need or would like to buy these types of items, please send to me, in a private inquiry, a description of what you are looking for. I'll look for those item(s) and send a reply. Here is a slightly more detailed list: Mainframe manuals - all and any vendors - mostly theory of operation, functional specifications-type of manuals DEC maintenance manuals - just a few DEC handbooks - just a few Brochures - mainframe and minicomputers all in mint condition Pocket reference cards - mostly IBM 360 Tabulator manuals - Friden and IBM Tabulator plug board (just a small one) Control panels - mainframe and minicomputers Control consoles - IBM 705 and UNIVAC 1108 Punch cards - boxes (2 000 cards per box) of'em Collection of storage mediums - paper and magnetic including sonic delay line from IBM 2260 controller and core (would like to sell the collection complete, but will do what I must do) Auerbach library of Computer Technology Reports from 1962 to 1989 - hundreds of manuals and reports Books - mostly introduction to data processing or computers-type books Hope you find something you've been looking for. Yours in good faith Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile www.unusual.on.ca - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) Author & Publisher of The Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Feb 7 16:23:45 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <005901bf71b9$ff270920$b82ad1d8@default> Two weeks ago I *had* restored it.... and about every half hour it would break down with a different problem. I am posting this message in the hope that if anyone else ever has to restore such a nasty transistor mini then they can use this as a reference for *everything* that can go wrong with a minicomputer (excluding the power supply). First, the best methods I have found to eliminate the main problems in the most stubborn transistor minicomputers: 1) Bad contacts on backplane - Spray it with "Engine Gunk" (seriously, an automotive engine degreaser/cleaner), then stick a plain extender board with cloth wrapped around contacts and insert/remove a couple of times. Then use contact cleaner. 2) Weak Transistors - Lower the power supply voltage enough that poor transistors start to fail. 3) Thermal Transistor Breakdowns - (these are the Fairchild transistors that *always* fail due to the epoxy inside expanding and breaking contact). I recommend leaving the minicomputer on for 5 hours and let the poor transistors completely fail. Nothing worse than an intermittent one. BTW, I had 18 Flip Chips filled with this problem :-( (thanks for the info Allison!) 4) Intermittent Flip Chips - These occur in areas where the mini is running hot (ie: The MB register) and cause poor solder contacts which *might* be visible. I recommend pulling these altogether and replacing them. 100s of ticking timebombs. Get rid of all of them before you go insane. Use a digital thermometer and check for areas in excess of 115 degrees F (35 C). In the last 3 transistor minicomputers I have restored over the past 5 months I have found you will get a lot more intermittents if the mini was used *a lot* (ie: 12 years) and was stored in an area that varied greatly in temperature. 5) Expect your prints not to contain a complete schematic of the mini computer - I have found many changes to the straight-8, PDP-8/S that were not listed in FCOs but instead new prints were issued. (1960's) COMMON PDP-8/S Problems I have found: Since the speed at which data is switched through the PDP-8/S is *much* faster than the Straight-8 expect problems and replace/resolder the major registers and *ALL* pulse amplifiers. Most pulse amplifiers are switching at the maximum speed for such a Flip Chip (R602,603) so the slightest addition of resistance caused by a poor solder contact will cause endless problems. This PDP-8/S had the following problems (beyond the ones I mentioned before) Saul Dinman decided to add a *new* interrupt called "LPC", Low Power Condition. It will look like a negibus device interrupting the CPU but in fact is a few gates wired to the power monitor board. Of course, it only affects *PARTS* :-( of the CPU like... Parity! ,ION, and other nasty *bugs*. As the original 8/S did not have this installed it was not included in original prints :-(. I now found a third set with these mods... after spending a couple of hours pulling my hair out. After polling for interrupts and a memory parity error it is safe to conclude it is a low poer condition. Thanks Saul! Of course, everything else *only* failed when the CPU was running a program.. It's OLD instruction set was: ========================================= ION when an external device draws *just* enough power when being accessed to cause an LPC rather than an IO Interrupt :-(. Clear Accumulator Sometimes - (external device control) when warm and only when running a program and oscilloscope is not connected. Move AC->MB , 99 out of 100 times asked to. Stall CPU Clock 1mS - no longer or it might be seen without scope. and my favorite... If Zero, Branch Sometimes - BUT branch always in SI mode. ========================================================================= The PDP-8/S has now been running for over 6 hours and every major "bit" junction has been checked for a poor signal - all Fairchild's removed and buried. The desktop 8/S is a micro-sauna which means I will probably install fast boxer fans in place of the two eggbeaters currently installed in the back. My rackmount 8/s has 4 fans along the sides of the boards + 2 blowers, one above and one below. I am installing a 20ma->RS232 converter and will get this mini connected to Telnet with FOCAL loaded as quickly as I can. This mini needs a good month of continuous running to make sure it is finally... happy. PAPER TAPE: If anyone here is using a PC0 with a PC01 controller (Straight-8, or 8/S) I found internal mods used at DEC to increase the read speed from 300CPS to 650CPS... error free! 8/S *really* loads FOCAL fast now! I hope when I get a KA10 it isn't filled with the nasty problems this one had. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Feb 7 18:21:47 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: Dec LK401 keyboards In-Reply-To: <20000207215917.15114.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I picked up half a dozen or so terminal keyboards today, mostly Digital LK401-AA (I think), a couple are Telex with a big round 5 pin that looks PC. I also have a couple spare RJ11 things from keyboards that didn't look so nice. Up to half the batch I will offer to members of this list for $6 each and shipping, the rest go to eBay since they sell for $20 each (listed as Dec VAX keyboards). From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Feb 7 18:24:14 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: Good work Jay! References: <4.1.20000207090809.00b3ec90@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <389F622E.8F038B06@idirect.com> >Christian Fandt wrote: > Hi Jay, > > Thanks much for your hosting of the classiccmp list! Thanks also for > enduring the discussions regarding the "new" vs. "old" methods and HTML > blocking, etc.! Some interesting bits of info came out of the many postings. Jerome Fine also adds: Thanks from this location as well. From bill at chipware.com Mon Feb 7 18:32:45 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: Electrolytic capacitors and other picture postcards. Message-ID: <001301bf71cc$0482c7d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Well, my OSI C3D is currently non-functional. Here's what happened: I've been testing and repairing a number of OSI 48-pin bus cards using the C3. This has required a large number of power cycles. Also, several cards caused the PS fuse (2A, 250 volt, glass cartridge) to blow. In each case, this problem was corrected by replacing the electrolytic caps on the offending board. OSI used 47 microfarad, 16 volt ecaps (ecaps... is this a good abbreviation? I'm getting tired of typing "electrolytic") pretty much exclusively. I could not find a source for these, so I used 47mf, 36 volt ecaps as replacements. This seemed to work OK. I finished working on the other cards and tried to bring up the machine with just the original cards. The fuse blew. Grrr... I pulled all of the cards, replaced the fuse and tried them one at a time. Sure enough, the CPU card (the model 510, triple CPU card with 6800, 6502 and 8080) was the culprit. I replaced its two ecaps as per above. It came up, rebooted once OK, started to get flakey and now won't come up at all. Is my understanding of ecaps correct? That is, as long as the capacitance is correct, the voltage is greater or equal to the required load and it is installed "right way around" it should be OK? There is so much logic on this board, a lot of it 8Txx, I hope I haven't blown a chip. It would take me a month to find it and who knows if I could get a replacement. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Feb 7 18:24:59 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: [CC] Wanted: Macintosh speech program called "Smooth Talker" In-Reply-To: <20000207233426.42926.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >I am looking for a copy of the old Macintosh speech synthesizer program >called "Smooth Talker" from First Byte. I had this program on a floppy that >I am looking for a driver for aforementioned Macintosh for an Apple Color >Stylewriter 2400. I don't want that printer to be reduced to dust magnet >status! I think the sw2500 driver you can download from apple should work ok. BTW I KNOW I have seen smoothtalker recently, but don't know if I bought it, or just saw it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 19:13:56 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: Electrolytic capacitors and other picture postcards. In-Reply-To: <001301bf71cc$0482c7d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Feb 7, 0 07:32:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 990 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000208/c000d7ce/attachment.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 7 19:20:46 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: Batch OCR'ing from GIF's/TIFF's/bitmaps? In-Reply-To: <20000207234854.27169.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 07, 2000 03:48:54 PM Message-ID: <200002080120.RAA30139@shell1.aracnet.com> ethan wrote: > --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > I've got a question though, how was the stuff gotten into the computer in > > the first place? Not feeling very motivated this morning so I just ported > > the following to VMS BASIC: > > 10-190 BATTLESHIP, Version: 2, January 1974 > > http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0276/index.html > > I just visited this link and was wondering what the crud on the last line > of BT.BAS.1 was. > > Otherwise, good job. I'm sure there's a bunch of us whose early DEC experience > was in the form of BASIC games, whether RSTS or OS/8 or whatever, and it all > brings back the memories. Gack, I think I really need to be getting more sleep. I just read what you wrote, and what I wrote, and I've got a bad feeling you might have misunderstood what I wrote. The above is the pointer to the original DECUS basic source on Tim's site. I finally figured out how to play it, the trick was having CAP's lock on :^) It's actually a pretty cool little program even if it's a little primitive. I've put the updated source and a executable for Alpha OpenVMS V7.2 on my FTP site. ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/vms It should compile fine on the VAX also, as well as maybe some PDP's. Other than the missing spaces/characters I'd mentioned the only problem I ran into is the way the RND statement differed. Well, that and the line numbers. Oh, I'm not sure what the weird *U*$=x characters in the original source at the end are. I thought maybe is was some sort of escape sequence to get out of BASIC. I've got to admit that after playing a game I'm really tempted to make a couple updates. It *really* needs to be able to handle lowercase! Zane From taussig at arpanet.com Mon Feb 7 19:47:02 2000 From: taussig at arpanet.com (Edward Taussig) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: <005901bf71b9$ff270920$b82ad1d8@default> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000207204702.01793ef8@pi.pair.com> Hi. Stabilant 22 was touted highly by Jerry Pournelle in Byte magazine as a contact enhancer, it might help after a good de-gunking. http://www.stabilant.com/ http://www.byte.com/art/9705/sec13/art1.htm "Stabilant 22, the miracle all-purpose contact enhancer. It not only makes for better electrical contacts -- a major use of Stabilant 22 is to get all the electrical noise out of hi-fi systems -- but also lubricates connector insertions. If you don't use Stabilant 22, I bet you wish you did." At 05:23 PM 2/7/00 -0500, you wrote: >Two weeks ago I *had* restored it.... and about every half hour it would >break down with a different problem. I am posting this message in the hope >that if anyone else ever has to restore such a nasty transistor mini then >they can use this as a reference for *everything* that can go wrong with a >minicomputer (excluding the power supply). > >First, the best methods I have found to eliminate the main problems in the >most stubborn transistor minicomputers: > >1) Bad contacts on backplane - Spray it with "Engine Gunk" (seriously, an >automotive engine degreaser/cleaner), then stick a plain extender board with >cloth wrapped around contacts and insert/remove a couple of times. Then use >contact cleaner. > >2) Weak Transistors - Lower the power supply voltage enough that poor >transistors start to fail. > >3) Thermal Transistor Breakdowns - (these are the Fairchild transistors that >*always* fail due to the epoxy inside expanding and breaking contact). I >recommend leaving the minicomputer on for 5 hours and let the poor >transistors completely fail. Nothing worse than an intermittent one. BTW, I >had 18 Flip Chips filled with this problem :-( (thanks for the info >Allison!) > >4) Intermittent Flip Chips - These occur in areas where the mini is running >hot (ie: The MB register) and cause poor solder contacts which *might* be >visible. I recommend pulling these altogether and replacing them. 100s of >ticking timebombs. Get rid of all of them before you go insane. Use a >digital thermometer and check for areas in excess of 115 degrees F (35 C). >In the last 3 transistor minicomputers I have restored over the past 5 >months I have found you will get a lot more intermittents if the mini was >used *a lot* (ie: 12 years) and was stored in an area that varied greatly in >temperature. > >5) Expect your prints not to contain a complete schematic of the mini >computer - I have found many changes to the straight-8, PDP-8/S that were >not listed in FCOs but instead new prints were issued. (1960's) > >COMMON PDP-8/S Problems I have found: > >Since the speed at which data is switched through the PDP-8/S is *much* >faster than the Straight-8 expect problems and replace/resolder the major >registers and *ALL* pulse amplifiers. Most pulse amplifiers are switching at >the maximum speed for such a Flip Chip (R602,603) so the slightest addition >of resistance caused by a poor solder contact will cause endless problems. > > >This PDP-8/S had the following problems (beyond the ones I mentioned before) > >Saul Dinman decided to add a *new* interrupt called "LPC", Low Power >Condition. It will look like a negibus device interrupting the CPU but in >fact is a few gates wired to the power monitor board. Of course, it only >affects *PARTS* :-( of the CPU like... Parity! ,ION, and other nasty *bugs*. >As the original 8/S did not have this installed it was not included in >original prints :-(. I now found a third set with these mods... after >spending a couple of hours pulling my hair out. After polling for interrupts >and a memory parity error it is safe to conclude it is a low poer condition. >Thanks Saul! > > >Of course, everything else *only* failed when the CPU was running a >program.. > > It's OLD instruction set was: >========================================= > >ION when an external device draws *just* enough power when being accessed to >cause an LPC rather than an IO Interrupt :-(. > >Clear Accumulator Sometimes - (external device control) when warm and only >when running a program and oscilloscope is not connected. > >Move AC->MB , 99 out of 100 times asked to. > >Stall CPU Clock 1mS - no longer or it might be seen without scope. > >and my favorite... > >If Zero, Branch Sometimes - BUT branch always in SI mode. > >========================================================================= > >The PDP-8/S has now been running for over 6 hours and every major "bit" >junction has been checked for a poor signal - all Fairchild's removed and >buried. The desktop 8/S is a micro-sauna which means I will probably install >fast boxer fans in place of the two eggbeaters currently installed in the >back. My rackmount 8/s has 4 fans along the sides of the boards + 2 blowers, >one above and one below. > > >I am installing a 20ma->RS232 converter and will get this mini connected to >Telnet with FOCAL loaded as quickly as I can. This mini needs a good month >of continuous running to make sure it is finally... happy. > >PAPER TAPE: If anyone here is using a PC0 with a PC01 controller >(Straight-8, or 8/S) I found internal mods used at DEC to increase the read >speed from 300CPS to 650CPS... error free! 8/S *really* loads FOCAL fast >now! > > >I hope when I get a KA10 it isn't filled with the nasty problems this one >had. > > > >john > > > >PDP-8 and other rare mini computers > >http://www.pdp8.com > > > > From foxnhare at jps.net Mon Feb 7 19:36:40 2000 From: foxnhare at jps.net (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: Commodore PET Anatomy Pictures References: <200002072354.RAA03119@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <389F7323.7EF46907@jps.net> Just Added to my ever-growing Commodore Pages: Anatomy of the PET http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/pet/anatomy.html This is a collection of photos I took a bunch of months back displaying my PETs (and Educator 64) their case designs, keyboards, circuit boards, etc. It gives a good overview of the American Line of the various Commodore PET/CBMs. Such interesting things to see also in the Anatomy are: * A picture of the 'drilled ram area' that commodore had done to keep schools from expanding their PETs bought at a discount. * A pictures of the Early SuperPET board set and a close up of the two-switch version. * A picture of the three earliest designs of the C2N datasette * In the pictures you will see an original PET RAM Expansion, Graphics Expansion and a RAM/ROM Emulator. -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-14.4 bps Commodore 8-bit page at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Feb 7 20:41:23 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: JVC GD-H4220US multi-sync monitor help needed In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "JVC GD-H4220US multi-sync monitor help needed" (Feb 7, 13:59) References: <20000207215917.15114.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10002080241.ZM11387@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 7, 13:59, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Can anyone point me to a chart that has the older 9-pin RGB standard? I can > verify my adapter, then. Also, I'm not sure what kind of sync a CG6 generates. I'd have thought the Amiga adapter would work, if anything would, providing it's for an analogue monitor. Here's the pinout from my Acorn Archimedes, which uses a pretty standard multisync pinout: Type: DE9 Pin Function ---------------- 1 red 2 green 3 blue 4 composite sync 5 optional vertical sync 6 red ground 7 green ground 8 blue ground 9 sync ground and for comparison, CGA (which is TTL, not analogue): Type: DE9 Pin Function ---------------- 1 GND 2 Reserved (no connection) 3 red 4 green 5 blue 6 intensity 7 Reserved (no connection) 8 horizontal sync 9 vertical sync -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Feb 7 21:19:04 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: References: <048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000207221904.2fdf582a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:40 PM 2/7/00 +0000, Tony wrote: >FWIW, I have 2 9133s and a 9154 on my 150-II. Oh, and a couple of 9142 >QIC tape drives. Do you have the software to format the tapes in the 9152s? This reminds me. One of the more interesting items for the HP 150 is the HP 9127 disk drive. It has a 5 1/4" floppy drive and it reads and writes disks in a standard MS-DOS format instead of HP's LIF format. I have a couple of 9127s but I've never tried to use them. Does anyone know if the 9127s can be used on any of the other HP systems? I haven't found much information about them in the HP catalogs. Joe From elvey at hal.com Mon Feb 7 21:26:08 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000207204702.01793ef8@pi.pair.com> Message-ID: <200002080326.TAA25423@civic.hal.com> Edward Taussig wrote: > Hi. Stabilant 22 was touted highly by Jerry Pournelle in Byte magazine > as a contact enhancer, it might help after a good de-gunking. > http://www.stabilant.com/ > > http://www.byte.com/art/9705/sec13/art1.htm > "Stabilant 22, the miracle all-purpose contact enhancer. It not only makes > for better electrical contacts -- a major use of Stabilant 22 is to get all > the electrical noise out of hi-fi systems -- but also lubricates connector > insertions. If you don't use Stabilant 22, I bet you wish you did." > Hi Why use someone's resold product when you can just buy some silicone grease like DC4 and it works fine. DC4 will last longer because it contain a binder. As for degreasing, I would suspect that something like brake clean would be better on electronics. Gunk engine cleaner has corrosives and is hygroscopic. I don't think I want that in my machine. It would surely cause long term problems. IMHO Dwight From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 22:07:48 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: JVC GD-H4220US multi-sync monitor help needed Message-ID: <20000208040748.1722.qmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Feb 7, 13:59, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Can anyone point me to a chart that has the older 9-pin RGB standard? > > I'd have thought the Amiga adapter would work, if anything would, providing > it's for an analogue monitor. It is. I've used it on an ancient IBM "Professional Graphics Adapter" monitor - same case as the original IBM Mono monitor from the 5-slot PC days, but 31.5Khz, analog, and color. I would have thought it would work, too, but something's odd about it. Perhaps it's sync polarity. > Here's the pinout from my Acorn Archimedes, > which uses a pretty standard multisync pinout: Thanks. I'll check my adapter. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Feb 7 21:46:22 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: Telephone and PBX manuals In-Reply-To: <002101bf728e$e72753e0$1a80b7d1@kstumpf> Message-ID: One of my friends just bought 2 pallets of manuals, mostly Northern Telecom and AT&T stuff like for the Meridian and SL-1 switches. If you are looking for anything "like" that, down to just the 3 to 4 inch 3 ring binders, email me ASAP. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 22:23:32 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: JVC GD-H4220US multi-sync monitor help needed Message-ID: <20000208042332.3979.qmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Feb 7, 13:59, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Can anyone point me to a chart that has the older 9-pin RGB standard? > Here's the pinout from my Acorn Archimedes, > which uses a pretty standard multisync pinout: > > Type: DE9 > > Pin Function > ---------------- > 1 red > 2 green > 3 blue > 4 composite sync > 5 optional vertical sync > 6 red ground > 7 green ground > 8 blue ground > 9 sync ground This is _very_ close to what I eventually found at pinouts.com... NEC 9-pin Multisync: http://www.pin-outs.com/datasheet_58.htm IBM 15-pin VGA: http://www.pin-outs.com/datasheet_15c.html The difference is that on the NEC 9-pin, 4 and 5 are H. Sync and V. Sync. >From this information, my adapters are a) identical and b) correct. They do connect pin 4 on the 9-pin side to pin 13 and pin 5 to pin 14, as one might expect. The analog wires and associated grounds are as expected. I guess I'm down to either inverted sync or a defective monitor. Thanks for the nudge in the right direction. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Feb 7 21:20:04 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <000d01bf71e3$6464b660$1822d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, February 07, 2000 10:29 PM Subject: Re[2]: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. >Edward Taussig wrote: >> Hi. Stabilant 22 was touted highly by Jerry Pournelle in Byte magazine >> as a contact enhancer, it might help after a good de-gunking. >> http://www.stabilant.com/ >> >> http://www.byte.com/art/9705/sec13/art1.htm >> "Stabilant 22, the miracle all-purpose contact enhancer. It not only makes >> for better electrical contacts -- a major use of Stabilant 22 is to get all >> the electrical noise out of hi-fi systems -- but also lubricates connector >> insertions. If you don't use Stabilant 22, I bet you wish you did." >> > >Hi > Why use someone's resold product when you can just >buy some silicone grease like DC4 and it works fine. >DC4 will last longer because it contain a binder. >As for degreasing, I would suspect that something like >brake clean would be better on electronics. Gunk engine >cleaner has corrosives and is hygroscopic. I don't think >I want that in my machine. It would surely cause >long term problems. I have been using engine gunk in minis for many years and have never had any come back. I am dealing with dirt/crud so thick that you couldn't get it off with just scrubbing. After the engine gunk I vacuum out the backplane, then use contact cleaner. I have never had a problem or a bad contact after that. This should only be used in minis where regulart contact cleaner fails. I have rarely had to use it because most minis come out of labs and are very clean. This mini has been sitting in a warehouse, unprotected for at least 25 years. The dirt was so thick on the negibus cables that I had to soak them in a tub for 4 hours and scrap the dirt off in layers. Looks like a millions $$ now but was disgusting to even handle before. Amazing how much dust and garbage something can accumulate over 20+ years. (it's been running 10 hours now without problems :-) ) john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com >IMHO >Dwight > > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Feb 7 22:29:11 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: Electrolytic capacitors and other picture postcards. Message-ID: <200002080429.XAA20611@world.std.com> References: <20000207215917.15114.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >I picked up half a dozen or so terminal keyboards today, mostly Digital >LK401-AA (I think), a couple are Telex with a big round 5 pin that looks >PC. I also have a couple spare RJ11 things from keyboards that didn't look >so nice. Up to half the batch I will offer to members of this list for $6 >each and shipping, the rest go to eBay since they sell for $20 each (listed >as Dec VAX keyboards). Filling in a little more detail; LK411 just one, but it looks new with the cable still in a bag. LK401-AA about half a dozen, with one currently listed on eBay. LK201 two of these slightly larger keyboards. One keyboard that "looks" like the 401, but no markings at all. Four of the RJ11 on both ends cables. Three of the following Telex keyboards with fat coiled cables. Only one of them had printing I could read on the bottom label, but all three "looked" the same. label reads as follows; Telex Computer Products 205233-002 Rev 01 952563-101 F.C. 602 122ST13-10E A0008 8538 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 8 08:23:51 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: monitor spec in general was Re: JVC GD-H4220US multi-sync monitor help needed In-Reply-To: <10002080241.ZM11387@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <20000207215917.15114.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000208092351.3057f9a4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Speaking of monitors. On one of my scrounging trips I found a Quantum Data 801-C Color Character Generator. This is a fancy video generator that can generate monochome or color video for composite or RGB type monitors. EVERYTHING about the output is programable; the horizontal and verticle sweep rates, field times, dot times, the number of characters per line, the number of dots per character both horizontally and vertically, along with signal polarity and levels, etc, etc, etc. I finally found a manual for it but what I'd like to find is a source that gives the DETAILED specifications for various types of monitors. Does anyone have a source for anything like that? Joe From Historical at aol.com Tue Feb 8 08:33:25 2000 From: Historical at aol.com (Historical@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: How to switch to digest mode . . . Message-ID: Hello everyone, sorry to ask through the list, but could someone please direct me in this? I used to be in digest mode. Thanks very much. Best, David Greelish Classic Computing Press www.classiccomputing.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 8 11:07:13 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: FS: Exteranl Apple Super drive In-Reply-To: <10002080241.ZM11387@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <20000207215917.15114.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000208120713.3d6ff83e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I picked this up at a KSC auction but I don't need it. Apple SuperDrive in external case, family number G7287. I don't have anything to test it on but it looks like new and even still has the tag on the I/O cable. The first $15 plus shipping from 32765 zip code gets it. Joe From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Feb 8 11:11:00 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software Message-ID: <001001bf7258$0bbeb7c0$52e993c3@proteus> Sometime last month there was a discussion here about members' preferred PCB layout software - most of which I appear to have missed thanks to my ISP having problems.... Anyway, what came of that discussion and what were the recommendations for a good free package? Personally I've been using the DOS based "Easy PCB" for about 10 years now (does that make this on topic? ) but would "prefer" to switch to a Win95 based package since I don't have a Linux box up and running yet. I've got "Eagle CAD v3.55r3" which is great, but the limitation on board size makes it impossible for me to use it for the project I'm playing with at the moment. :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From marvin at rain.org Mon Feb 7 12:11:00 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software References: <001001bf7258$0bbeb7c0$52e993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <389F0AB4.B0FBC96F@rain.org> For small boards, I have a program called CAMDOS that seems to work quite well. It does not have autorouting capability, but then again for small boards ... :). I don't recall the exact limitations but IIRC, standard bus boards were no problem. Peter Pachla wrote: > > Sometime last month there was a discussion here about members' preferred PCB > layout software - most of which I appear to have missed thanks to my ISP > having problems.... > > Anyway, what came of that discussion and what were the recommendations for a > good free package? > > Personally I've been using the DOS based "Easy PCB" for about 10 years now > (does that make this on topic? ) but would "prefer" to switch to a > Win95 based package since I don't have a Linux box up and running yet. I've > got "Eagle CAD v3.55r3" which is great, but the limitation on board size > makes it impossible for me to use it for the project I'm playing with at the > moment. :-( > > TTFN - Pete. > > -- > Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. > Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > > peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk > -- From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Feb 8 12:17:36 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: [CC] Wanted: Macintosh speech program called "Smooth Talker" In-Reply-To: <200002072354.RAA03119@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: David Vohs wrote: >I am looking for a driver for aforementioned Macintosh for an Apple Color >Stylewriter 2400. I don't want that printer to be reduced to dust magnet >status! http://asu.info.apple.com/swupdates.nsf/artnum/n10265 Don't know what system software it requires, but considering it's dated 1/97 it should be OK with 7.0.1 or 7.1, both of which run fine on my Mac Plus. - Mark From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 8 13:06:46 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: JVC GD-H4220US multi-sync monitor help needed In-Reply-To: <10002080241.ZM11387@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Feb 8, 0 02:41:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 717 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000208/7fe6b8b2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 8 13:13:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000207221904.2fdf582a@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 7, 0 10:19:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1702 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000208/8cc1f85d/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Tue Feb 8 13:23:26 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software Message-ID: <000601bf7269$f98c0960$0400c0a8@winbook> IIRC there's a free/demo package from IVEX that might do, though I don't know whether it's time limited or not. I am unfamiliar with it because I felt that it was missing about 99.99% of the library component symbols and models I expected to see. It's not missing too much from their viewpoint, but The first five or six components I tried to use in their demo software were absent, so I ditched it. I'm not even sure that IVEX isn't the vendor of the Windraft, etc packages which I seem to recall it is, but they seem to reflect the same problems. There's a PD add-on for AutoCad, which isn't free, that is claimed to work well, though I haven't tried it. What I use for the bread-and-butter stuff myself is the classic DOS-based OrCAD v3.22 which works, I find, much better than the more recent GUI-based versions. OrCAD has recently come out with a schematic capture package for which there is supposed to be a route editor as well, accessible over the web only. That might meet your short-term needs. If you like the EAGLE stuff well enough, it's not terribly expensive, and certainly costs in the range from 1..10% of what the OrCAD which does from 1..10% of Eagle will do, costs. If you plan to integratge shcematic capture and PCB routing with other packages, you should look at VIEWLOGIC despite its higher cost, because it's the package now most-used to support entry on the low-cost CPLD/FPGA verndors' software. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Peter Pachla To: Classic Computer Date: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 10:45 AM Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software >Sometime last month there was a discussion here about members' preferred PCB >layout software - most of which I appear to have missed thanks to my ISP >having problems.... > >Anyway, what came of that discussion and what were the recommendations for a >good free package? > > >Personally I've been using the DOS based "Easy PCB" for about 10 years now >(does that make this on topic? ) but would "prefer" to switch to a >Win95 based package since I don't have a Linux box up and running yet. I've >got "Eagle CAD v3.55r3" which is great, but the limitation on board size >makes it impossible for me to use it for the project I'm playing with at the >moment. :-( > > > TTFN - Pete. > >-- >Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. >Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > >peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk >-- > > > From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Feb 8 14:09:44 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: Electrolytic capacitors and other picture postcards. References: <001301bf71cc$0482c7d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <38A07808.A57C9BB4@wxs.nl> There is one type of ecap that is rather sensitive to negative spikes and overvoltage. These are called tantalium capacitors. Tantalium cap have that very distinct drop-shape ! Best way to protect them is to solder an 1n4001 antiparalel between then ground and the positive powerline such that it will short out any negative spikes on the board. Install likewise on all other power feeds. Overvoltage protection needs a specialised cirquit with a crowbar to blow the fuse in case of an overvoltage condition. ----+------- Positive plane | _ ^ diode (note orientation) | ----+------- ground plane | _ ^ another diode | ----+------- negative plane Sipke de Wal Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Well, my OSI C3D is currently non-functional. Here's > what happened: > > I've been testing and repairing a number of OSI 48-pin > bus cards using the C3. This has required a large number > of power cycles. Also, several cards caused the PS fuse > (2A, 250 volt, glass cartridge) to blow. In each case, this > problem was corrected by replacing the electrolytic caps on > the offending board. OSI used 47 microfarad, 16 volt ecaps > (ecaps... is this a good abbreviation? I'm getting tired of > typing "electrolytic") pretty much exclusively. I could not > find a source for these, so I used 47mf, 36 volt ecaps as > replacements. This seemed to work OK. I finished working > on the other cards and tried to bring up the machine with > just the original cards. The fuse blew. Grrr... I pulled > all of the cards, replaced the fuse and tried them one at a > time. Sure enough, the CPU card (the model 510, triple CPU > card with 6800, 6502 and 8080) was the culprit. I replaced > its two ecaps as per above. It came up, rebooted once OK, > started to get flakey and now won't come up at all. Is my > understanding of ecaps correct? That is, as long as the > capacitance is correct, the voltage is greater or equal to > the required load and it is installed "right way around" > it should be OK? There is so much logic on this board, a > lot of it 8Txx, I hope I haven't blown a chip. It would > take me a month to find it and who knows if I could get a > replacement. > > Thanks, > Bill Sudbrink From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Feb 8 14:21:58 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. References: <3.0.3.32.20000207204702.01793ef8@pi.pair.com> Message-ID: <38A07AE6.5BF46765@wxs.nl> Contact Spray is HELL Never ever use contact-spray! or the like in low voltage connectors/equipment Often the fat that is left after the carrier-solvent has vaporised will function as a very good insulator, The grease will contract all kind of vermin that will eek out a living in your equipment and over time the problem will return ever more hefty. You'll get addicted to the stuff Even in HI-FI-equipment this is a last resort solution, and i would prefer kerosine to remove the crackle from a potentiometer Also: Some types of spray will contain solvents that can effectively dissolve plastics! A very good way to clean dirty contacts is your everyday pencil-eraser and iso-propyl alcohol. Sipke de Wal Edward Taussig wrote: > > Hi. Stabilant 22 was touted highly by Jerry Pournelle in Byte magazine > as a contact enhancer, it might help after a good de-gunking. > http://www.stabilant.com/ > > http://www.byte.com/art/9705/sec13/art1.htm > "Stabilant 22, the miracle all-purpose contact enhancer. It not only makes > for better electrical contacts -- a major use of Stabilant 22 is to get all > the electrical noise out of hi-fi systems -- but also lubricates connector > insertions. If you don't use Stabilant 22, I bet you wish you did." > > At 05:23 PM 2/7/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Two weeks ago I *had* restored it.... and about every half hour it would > >break down with a different problem. I am posting this message in the hope > >that if anyone else ever has to restore such a nasty transistor mini then > >they can use this as a reference for *everything* that can go wrong with a > >minicomputer (excluding the power supply). > > > >First, the best methods I have found to eliminate the main problems in the > >most stubborn transistor minicomputers: > > > >1) Bad contacts on backplane - Spray it with "Engine Gunk" (seriously, an > >automotive engine degreaser/cleaner), then stick a plain extender board with > >cloth wrapped around contacts and insert/remove a couple of times. Then use > >contact cleaner. > > > >2) Weak Transistors - Lower the power supply voltage enough that poor > >transistors start to fail. > > > >3) Thermal Transistor Breakdowns - (these are the Fairchild transistors that > >*always* fail due to the epoxy inside expanding and breaking contact). I > >recommend leaving the minicomputer on for 5 hours and let the poor > >transistors completely fail. Nothing worse than an intermittent one. BTW, I > >had 18 Flip Chips filled with this problem :-( (thanks for the info > >Allison!) > > > >4) Intermittent Flip Chips - These occur in areas where the mini is running > >hot (ie: The MB register) and cause poor solder contacts which *might* be > >visible. I recommend pulling these altogether and replacing them. 100s of > >ticking timebombs. Get rid of all of them before you go insane. Use a > >digital thermometer and check for areas in excess of 115 degrees F (35 C). > >In the last 3 transistor minicomputers I have restored over the past 5 > >months I have found you will get a lot more intermittents if the mini was > >used *a lot* (ie: 12 years) and was stored in an area that varied greatly in > >temperature. > > > >5) Expect your prints not to contain a complete schematic of the mini > >computer - I have found many changes to the straight-8, PDP-8/S that were > >not listed in FCOs but instead new prints were issued. (1960's) > > > >COMMON PDP-8/S Problems I have found: > > > >Since the speed at which data is switched through the PDP-8/S is *much* > >faster than the Straight-8 expect problems and replace/resolder the major > >registers and *ALL* pulse amplifiers. Most pulse amplifiers are switching at > >the maximum speed for such a Flip Chip (R602,603) so the slightest addition > >of resistance caused by a poor solder contact will cause endless problems. > > > > > >This PDP-8/S had the following problems (beyond the ones I mentioned before) > > > >Saul Dinman decided to add a *new* interrupt called "LPC", Low Power > >Condition. It will look like a negibus device interrupting the CPU but in > >fact is a few gates wired to the power monitor board. Of course, it only > >affects *PARTS* :-( of the CPU like... Parity! ,ION, and other nasty *bugs*. > >As the original 8/S did not have this installed it was not included in > >original prints :-(. I now found a third set with these mods... after > >spending a couple of hours pulling my hair out. After polling for interrupts > >and a memory parity error it is safe to conclude it is a low poer condition. > >Thanks Saul! > > > > > >Of course, everything else *only* failed when the CPU was running a > >program.. > > > > It's OLD instruction set was: > >========================================= > > > >ION when an external device draws *just* enough power when being accessed to > >cause an LPC rather than an IO Interrupt :-(. > > > >Clear Accumulator Sometimes - (external device control) when warm and only > >when running a program and oscilloscope is not connected. > > > >Move AC->MB , 99 out of 100 times asked to. > > > >Stall CPU Clock 1mS - no longer or it might be seen without scope. > > > >and my favorite... > > > >If Zero, Branch Sometimes - BUT branch always in SI mode. > > > >========================================================================= > > > >The PDP-8/S has now been running for over 6 hours and every major "bit" > >junction has been checked for a poor signal - all Fairchild's removed and > >buried. The desktop 8/S is a micro-sauna which means I will probably install > >fast boxer fans in place of the two eggbeaters currently installed in the > >back. My rackmount 8/s has 4 fans along the sides of the boards + 2 blowers, > >one above and one below. > > > > > >I am installing a 20ma->RS232 converter and will get this mini connected to > >Telnet with FOCAL loaded as quickly as I can. This mini needs a good month > >of continuous running to make sure it is finally... happy. > > > >PAPER TAPE: If anyone here is using a PC0 with a PC01 controller > >(Straight-8, or 8/S) I found internal mods used at DEC to increase the read > >speed from 300CPS to 650CPS... error free! 8/S *really* loads FOCAL fast > >now! > > > > > >I hope when I get a KA10 it isn't filled with the nasty problems this one > >had. > > > > > > > >john > > > > > > > >PDP-8 and other rare mini computers > > > >http://www.pdp8.com > > > > > > > > From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue Feb 8 14:49:42 2000 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: free machines in Woodbridge VA Message-ID: <200002082049.PAA23086@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Hey all, Once upon a time, I wrote asking for volunteers to rescue some machines in Woodbridge VA. There was a PDP-11/34 that got rescued, but there is still a big pile up there that is headed for the scrap heap unless somebody picks it up. Of course, the remainder is mostly PC crap^H^H^H^Hstuff, but some of it is old enough to be of possible interest. Let me know if you're interested. (The guy dumping this stuff really would like it to find good homes, but he still doesn't want to be overrun by dozens of requests, so I'm still trying to coordinate things.) Without further ado, here's the list brought back by our recon guy, Al Corda . Some of it may be gone by now, but most is probably still there: ] As of today (1/10/00) items of interest I have identified ] include the following: ] ] 3 or 4 Gen-u-ine DEC VT100s (some with keyboards! :-) ] ] A number of IBM XTs (Yeh, I know, but I included them for ] completeness :-) ] A number of IBM ATs (Just plain ATs, no AT370s or AT3270s (so far)) ] ] 2 Compaq Plus Luggables ] ] A bunch of LaserWriter II printers in various states of repair ] A bunch of Spinwriter printers of various makes. ] ] 2 Photocopiers (1 Canon Npf-270, one Xerox (not certain of model)) ] ] A bunch of PC monitors, mostly monochrome or CGA (no VGA as far as I ] could tell) ] ] A couple of cases of various PC software from the early 90's ] (stuff like RBASE, etc.) ] ] 3 or 4 large _HEAVY_ units that on brief inspection strike me as ] UPS (or line conditioner) units. No manufacturers markings were ] obvious (but I wasn't going to try to turn one over. My back is ] worth more to me than any UPS.) ] ] Piles of office telephones, Old modems, Various unidentifiable ] electronic assemblies of dubious origin, Boxes and boxes of cables, ] wire, etc. Cheers, Bill. PS. I've been _way_ behind on answering e-mail lately, so remind me in your reply that this is time-sensitive, and that machines will get crushed if I nap. :-/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 8 13:25:06 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: Electrolytic capacitors and other picture postcards. In-Reply-To: <200002080429.XAA20611@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Feb 7, 0 11:29:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1707 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000208/ee54a0b9/attachment.ksh From dogas at leading.net Tue Feb 8 14:54:10 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <01bf7276$a9c60ea0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> >From: John B > > That was great. I dont even have an 8 of any kind but I enjoyed reading the pointers and learned alot with that one. Thanks. It's one of the reasons I like this list (and I hope one day to have to dig that note up from an archive to help a machine that's near... ;) Keep it up! Cheers - Mike: dogas@leading.net From elvey at hal.com Tue Feb 8 15:49:33 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: <38A07AE6.5BF46765@wxs.nl> Message-ID: <200002082149.NAA12942@civic.hal.com> Sipke de Wal wrote: > Contact Spray is HELL > > Never ever use contact-spray! or the like in low voltage > connectors/equipment Often the fat that is left after the > carrier-solvent has vaporised will function as a very good insulator, > The grease will contract all kind of vermin that will eek out a living > in your equipment and over time the problem will return ever more hefty. > You'll get addicted to the stuff Why does every one think I'm talking about petroleum grease. Many high power connectors are protected with silicone grease and still functioning with out a hitch after 25 years. Their contact resistance still measures less then the original dry contact resistance. I put silicone grease on the contacts of the USART socket, in my Poly88, back in 1979, to fix a flaky contact. I have had no reason since then to add more. I used the Poly88 just last week. If I'm addicted, it is just for new applications. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 8 15:55:47 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:54 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: <38A07AE6.5BF46765@wxs.nl> from "Sipke de Wal" at Feb 8, 0 09:21:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 567 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000208/ccf5a6ed/attachment.ksh From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 8 17:25:04 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: [CC] Clarifying my "Wanted" posting. Message-ID: <20000208232504.14870.qmail@hotmail.com> First off, here is my original posting: >I am looking for a copy of the old Macintosh speech synthesizer program >called "Smooth Talker" from First Byte. I had this program >on a floppy >that my electronics teacher gave to me last year, but >the floppy has since >worn out & I have been searching *everywhere* >for a copy, but to no avail. >If you have a copy, *do not* send me a >disk image, as my Mac (original Mac >upgraded to Mac Plus specs.) >does not recognize them at all. I must ask, >however, that it come on >an 800K floppy, 400K is not enough space! > >I am looking for a driver for aforementioned Macintosh for an Apple Color >Stylewriter 2400. I don't want that printer to be reduced to >dust magnet >status! Clarification: I am looking for the aforementioned drivers/programs *on a disk*, *NOT* as a disk image! Disk images are totally useless to me, & my Mac does not like them *at all*. I tried to make a disk image once, but it didn't work. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, Double FDD, GeoRam 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue Feb 8 16:44:35 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <003b01bf7286$13139da0$bf20d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Mike To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 4:43 PM Subject: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. >>From: John B >> >> > >That was great. I dont even have an 8 of any kind but I enjoyed reading the >pointers and learned alot with that one. Thanks. It's one of the reasons I >like this list (and I hope one day to have to dig that note up from an >archive to help a machine that's near... ;) Keep it up! > You're welcome, and I really hope you find one. Out of the dozens of different mini computers I have restored for collectors, I have never found one as fun to restore as the PDP-8/S. What else can you run hundreds of different programs and languages on only 1001 transistors and 73 light bulbs? (and pretty quick too ;-) ).... Oh, and using "general purpose" Flip Chips?There are only 3 custom boards inside the 8/S: the front panel switches, the front panel lights, and the power monitor flip chip (W506). Even the core memory used general purpose slicers/diff. amps found in DF32 DISC and Magtape units! (okay, So Saul was desperate to use easily accessible Flip Chips... ). Well, back to the grind... I have to restore some PDP-11/20 minis now :-( Hope you find I *really* cool mini! john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com >Cheers >- Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue Feb 8 16:56:45 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <004c01bf7287$c5e788a0$bf20d1d8@default> >Why does every one think I'm talking about petroleum >grease. Many high power connectors are protected with >silicone grease and still functioning with out a >hitch after 25 years. Their contact resistance still >measures less then the original dry contact resistance. >I put silicone grease on the contacts of the USART >socket, in my Poly88, back in 1979, to fix a flaky contact. >I have had no reason since then to add more. I used >the Poly88 just last week. If I'm addicted, it is just >for new applications. >Dwight I'll have to try that. I guess, everyone has their own way of fixing bad solder contacts. I've used the method I described over the past 16 years on dozens of old mini computers... never had one come back because of problems caused from the chemicals I use... john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 8 18:23:55 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <200002090023.TAA25566@world.std.com> Hi, If you have a Classic HP 3000 (any two-digit model #), and if you received the "Y2K Safe" release of MPE recently, and if you haven't installed it yet, I have some notes that you should find interesting. (If you didn't get your Y2K Safe MPE V (which was free!), email Allan Hertling at allan_hertling@hp.com) 0. 3P Patches? -------------- If your goal is to get Release 40 installed, you don't need to bother with the 3P patches you may have received. I simply installed 3P, and then did the Turbo Update to Release 40, and then installed the Release 40 patches. 1. TUINSTAL Y2K bug ------------------- The Turbo Update mechanism has a Y2K bug in it. TUINSTAL builds the file TUSYSDMP, which builds a new SL and tries to create a SYSDUMP tape with a partial backup. If run today (8 Feb 2000), the partial backup would be specified incorrectly as 2/8/0 ... and STORE (which is used by SYSDUMP) doesn't accept a single digit year. Workarounds: 1) change system date to 1999-12-31 before running TUINSTAL (note: you may have to purge TUSYSDMP if it's already been built) or 2) edit TUSLINFO prior to running TUINSTAL and change the line towards the end with "$$/$$/$$" to "02/04/00" (or some such) ...note: I haven't tested to see if TUNINSTALL will complain if it can't find the $$/$$/$$ line. 2. Release 40 Patches --------------------- There are 7 patches on the Release 40 patch tape. Accompanying the tape is a list of the patches ... these are also the names of the files to stream to install each patch! Notes: 1) Be sure to restore the patches into PATCH.TELESUP! (They're on the tape as @.PATCH40.TELESUP) 2) Don't rely on setting LIMIT to 1! Each job has a ";HIPRI", and each builds a new file called "PATCH1JJ" (or some such), and streams it with HIPRI! I.e., it you attempt to minimize your time at the console by streaming all the jobs at once, you'll regret it! (Been there, done that :) 3) INFDVA7B and TRVDVA8B both replace RAPID000.PUB.SYS ... the latter with a bigger file than the former. My *guess* is that TRVDVA8B should be installed second. 4) BBRDVA1B, RPRDVB0A, and SIMANY5B each build a new SYSDUMP tape and require a coldload. I streamed the other 5 jobs first (one at a time), then did: stream BBRDVA1B COLDLOAD from the tape stream RPRDVB0A COLDLOAD from the tape stream SIMANY5B COLDLOAD from the tape did a manual SYSDUMP with date 0 and "@.@.@" If you're ambitious, you could combine the three patches into one job (with one sysdump/coldload) 3. Disk Space ------------- I didn't want to risk my existing disks/system, so I bought a used Coyote (HP 6000 670H ... 670 MB?), and setup a single disk system. After installing just the 3P FOS tape, FREE5 reported 2,348,785 available sectors (573 MB) ... before installing the SUBSYS tape! After going to Release 40, installing the subsystems, and installing the Release 40 patches, I have about 1,600,000 sectors free (383 MB). Stan Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 8 19:05:24 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <200002090105.UAA23517@world.std.com> >I'll have to try that. I guess, everyone has their own way of fixing bad >solder contacts. I've used the method I described over the past 16 years on I DID NOT MEAN BAD SOLDER CONTACTS... I meant poor contacts between a backplane and a board. I'm still having "bad solder joint" flashbacks after restoring my second PDP-8/S.... I hope they go away in a few days ;-) john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com > >john > >PDP-8 and other rare mini computers > >http://www.pdp8.com > >> >> > > From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Tue Feb 8 20:13:12 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: site for old Mac/Lisa SW Message-ID: <27341256@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 347 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000208/f00b2dd2/attachment.bin From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 8 20:39:27 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software In-Reply-To: <001001bf7258$0bbeb7c0$52e993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000208183927.0094d4f0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 17:11 08-02-2000 -0000, you wrote: >Anyway, what came of that discussion and what were the recommendations for a >good free package? Unfortunately (for my needs at least) most of the "free" packages have too many limitations to be useful. I had an old DOS version of OrCAD/SDT once, and it did serve me well for some years. Thanks to having it, I was able to do a "competitive upgrade" to Micro Code Engineering's CircuitMaker Pro and TraxMaker Pro (about USD $700 or so for the pair). So far, it has proven to be a good investment. The digital simulation functions saw me through some tough problems in one of my classes, and produced output that had both my instructors raising their eyebrows. I'll be happy to answer any questions if you want to know more. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 8 20:41:51 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Electrolytic capacitors and other picture postcards. In-Reply-To: <38A07808.A57C9BB4@wxs.nl> References: <001301bf71cc$0482c7d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000208184151.00941150@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 21:09 08-02-2000 +0100, you wrote: >There is one type of ecap that is rather sensitive to >negative spikes and overvoltage. These are called tantalium >capacitors. That would be 'Tantalum.' No extra 'i.' ;-) You are correct, though. Tantalums are quite sensitive to overvoltage conditions, as well as reverse polarity. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Feb 8 20:51:55 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: New list - "PDP-archives" Message-ID: <000208215155.25600e02@trailing-edge.com> Hi Folks, You might remember me, I'm the guy who maintains the PDP-11 software archives at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ and the PDP-10 software archives at http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ In order to maximize the utility of these archives to users, as well as to encourage discussion of the archives (as in, "Hey, I just found a really neat Battleship game for my PDP-10"), I've formed a new mailing list: "PDP-archives". It will be for the discussion not only of the above archives, but also for discussion of other archives and general topics about how to best archive and distribute old PDP-8, PDP-10, and PDP-11 software. (Other PDP-nn software is welcome too, of course!) To subscribe, send an E-mail request consisting of the line subscribe PDP-archives to PDP-archives-request@mudd.trailing-edge.com Alternatively, visit http://mudd.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/PDP-archives and sign up using the web interface. See you on the list! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Feb 9 00:36:59 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software Message-ID: <001501bf72c8$11b714e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 8:02 PM Subject: Re: Schematic capture/PCB design software >At 17:11 08-02-2000 -0000, you wrote: > > > >>Anyway, what came of that discussion and what were the recommendations for a >>good free package? > > > > Unfortunately (for my needs at least) most of the "free" packages have too >many limitations to be useful. I had an old DOS version of OrCAD/SDT once, >and it did serve me well for some years. Thanks to having it, I was able to >do a "competitive upgrade" to Micro Code Engineering's CircuitMaker Pro and >TraxMaker Pro (about USD $700 or so for the pair). > > So far, it has proven to be a good investment. The digital simulation >functions saw me through some tough problems in one of my classes, and >produced output that had both my instructors raising their eyebrows. > > I'll be happy to answer any questions if you want to know more. > I've got a sample package of CIrcuitMaker and TraxMaker and found it wanting, particularly in simulation models and device symbols. When I got OrCAD in the mid-'80's they covered over 90% of the TTL and CMOS devices available. By comparison, I'd say I found these two to be lacking about 90%. It's really not a problem with their libraries, but with how they're managed. They build a symbol for 7400, say, but there's no guarantee there's a corresponding symbol for the 74HC00 or 74S37, which would use the same package and symbol. They had nearly no AC or ACT parts represented, nor did they have BCT or F library components. Since you're paying for a simulator, there ought to be correct models for 7400, 74L00, 74H00, 74C00, 74S00, 74LS00, 74AC00, 74ACT00, 74AHCT00, 74ACT00, 74AHCTLS00, and so on. There ought also to be plenty of models for CMOS parts starting with 40xx, 44xx, 45xx, and a goodly number of 7300 and 7600 series parts. OrCAD had all that back in the mid-80's. They no longer offer that much coverage, owning to the increased knowledge of the user community, which would merely point out all their errors. Have you found otherwise? > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Feb 9 01:21:52 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software In-Reply-To: <001501bf72c8$11b714e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000208232152.0094fe00@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 23:36 08-02-2000 -0700, you wrote: >I've got a sample package of CIrcuitMaker and TraxMaker and found it >wanting, particularly in simulation models and device symbols. It would be. I don't believe Micro Code includes full libraries with the sample versions. >would use the same package and symbol. They had nearly no AC or ACT parts >represented, nor did they have BCT or F library components. Since you're >paying for a simulator, there ought to be correct models for 7400, 74L00, >74H00, 74C00, 74S00, 74LS00, 74AC00, 74ACT00, 74AHCT00, 74ACT00, 74AHCTLS00, A basic simulator at the digital level only looks at on/off states. That's really all it has to do. Since all the parts you've listed above perform EXACTLY the same function, and have the same symbol, I don't see why the library has to include every possible variation on one part. FWIW, the current version of CircuitMaker Pro includes the following for 2-input NAND gates: 4011, 4093, 74F00, 74F132, 74F37, 74LS00, 74LS132, and 74LS37. While I agree that CM does need some help with their library, notably in the more exotic components such as tunnel diodes, I have found it adequate for my needs. The version of OrCAD you refer to only does schematic capture, if I recall correctly, and has no simulation capabilities. >and so on. There ought also to be plenty of models for CMOS parts starting >with 40xx, 44xx, 45xx, and a goodly number of 7300 and 7600 series parts. >OrCAD had all that back in the mid-80's. They no longer offer that much >coverage, owning to the increased knowledge of the user community, which >would merely point out all their errors. I'm not sure I understand that last statement. If the omission of components is itself an error, why would the "user community" not point it out and ask for better coverage? Also, have you considered that there may be another reason? Specifically, that the advancing state of technology where ICs are concerned has made such wide varieties of parts unnecessary to accomplish a given task? To be perfectly honest, I've never heard of the 7300 or 7600 series parts. I do know of TI's 75xxx series, which were line drivers/receivers, but I'm curious about the ones you mention. Anyway, I feel that what CM lacks in library coverage is made up for in other features. Also, there is nothing keeping you from adding to the library. One can create their own SPICE models, though this is not generally a trivial task, and I know there's at least one software package available that lets you input specs from a databook and have it output a SPICE model. >Have you found otherwise? As I've said: I've found that it serves my needs. I feel that it was a good investment for the price I paid. Do I feel that most EDA software is overpriced? Yes. Would I recommend CM and TM for any application? No. There are better packages, but most are well beyond the hobbyist price range. Is there a need for an EDA package with better 'legacy' parts support? I think so. I will continue to bug Micro Code about improving CM and TM along those lines. In fact, we're probably due for an update this year. The bottom line is that a question was asked of the list members, and I gave my opinion in response. The 'Free' packages simply do not suit my needs. If they suit the needs of others, great! I was merely offering one option out of many. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Feb 9 03:44:48 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: References: <38A07AE6.5BF46765@wxs.nl> from "Sipke de Wal" at Feb 8, 0 09:21:58 pm Message-ID: >Oh, and the less said about WD40 the better... I have something worse. Although none on this list might suspect it, from time to time I buy weird cheap items. Case in point, Soybean oil lubricant. Reading the can made it sound like using the product would heal the ozone layer, and it was 79 cents, so I bought a can. As oil it seems ok, but STINK, it reeks for weeks. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Feb 9 03:24:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: How far can you reach in a dumpster? In-Reply-To: <001001bf7258$0bbeb7c0$52e993c3@proteus> Message-ID: I like it when things happen nice. During a scrounge earlier this week I put together a decidedly lame looking box of bits to buy. Today one of my friends gave me a Panasonic Business Mate 150 portable. Digging through my lame box of bits tonight what do I find? The AC power adapter. Yes sometimes its sweet. ;) Answering my teaser subject, until I reach the "organic" layer, but I don't follow the rule you have to keep one foot on the floor. From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Wed Feb 9 05:53:23 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: How far can you reach in a dumpster? Message-ID: <001201bf72f4$44f8b580$db3fc018@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, 9 February 2000 22:23 Subject: How far can you reach in a dumpster? My answer: Until it's too high to climb out again ! Ever since I found a PDP/8L in one a few weeks ago anyway. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Feb 9 08:04:40 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: How far can you reach in a dumpster? In-Reply-To: References: <001001bf7258$0bbeb7c0$52e993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000209090440.3da738c0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:24 AM 2/9/00 -0800, Mike Ford asked: >I like it when things happen nice. During a scrounge earlier this week I >put together a decidedly lame looking box of bits to buy. Today one of my >friends gave me a Panasonic Business Mate 150 portable. Digging through my >lame box of bits tonight what do I find? The AC power adapter. Yes >sometimes its sweet. ;) > >Answering my teaser subject, until I reach the "organic" layer, but I don't >follow the rule you have to keep one foot on the floor. You must be a lot taller than I am. I jump up on the side and lean right in. Joe > > > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Feb 9 08:37:37 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: How far can you reach in a dumpster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13522333718.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Dumpster Diving?] That's nothing. One time, my mom and my kid sister call me at work - they wanna go dumpster diving. They saw a dumpster getting loads of Apple IIe stuff pitched in it. So we go at it. Got some System/36 stuff, some Apple IIe stuff, and a load of miscellaneous. I always wondered where I got the hacker gene from, and now I think I know. I was bragging for weeks. :P ------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Feb 9 08:50:38 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: How far can you reach in a dumpster? Message-ID: <000209095038.25600e4e@trailing-edge.com> > You must be a lot taller than I am. I jump up on the side and lean right >in. My favorite technique is to back my car up to the dumpster, pop the trunk open, climb on my bumper then into the dumpster, and start sorting and tossing the good stuff into the trunk. A good number of the PDP-11 freeware tapes in the archives were rescued that way :-). Tim. From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Feb 9 10:32:28 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: <200002091440.IAA28822@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Allison wrote: >Warning... Silicone grease is persistant stuff and one on what ever >it's very hard to remove. So a board that requires soldering need >that done FIRST then wipe the fingers with a thin film. True. The Contamination Engineer on the NASA program I'm working on swears by "Simple Green", a widely available (grocery-store) detergent, for removing silicon grease. She recommends the clear, unscented version of it, which she uses on our flight hardware. She still hates silicone greases/oils/release agents, though, because it *is* hard to get off once it's on, and it does tend to flow/spread all over anything it's put on. - Mark From elvey at hal.com Wed Feb 9 12:15:53 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: <200002090105.UAA23517@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200002091815.KAA02016@civic.hal.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > < > > Warning... Silicone grease is persistant stuff and one on what ever > it's very hard to remove. Yes, I forgot to warn people. The oils in silicone grease do evaporate slowly over time but there is almost nothing that will fully remove it. I have had reasonable results using Brake Clean but you have to be careful with this also. It dissolves many plastics and most paints. It is highly toxic and should be used in ventilated areas only. Don't get the grease on anything you don't want it on. A little of the stuff goes a long way. Dwight From edick at idcomm.com Wed Feb 9 13:11:49 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software Message-ID: <000e01bf7331$84e73580$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, the package I got from MicroCode was supposed to be a "full-up" version and after I called inquiring about the libraries, I was told "that's all there is, there 'aint no more" at which point I gave up on them. We all get attached to our tools, and I am not trying to pass any sort of overall judgment on their product. However, I do believe that the EAGLE package, though it is not terribly easy to learn either (takes about an hour plus the "easter egg hunt" for the various components and proper package outlines, particularly connectors and passives, the commercial version seems to be pretty adequate at a price about half that asked for the MicroCode package. While you do have to read the documents, the autorouter is about as good as any I've seen in the under-$10k category. That makes a big difference to me, since I work at the "front end" of a project, taking the notion form concept to prototype. I don't like to hunt extensively through libraries as I have to do with the EAGLE v3.55 package, but it's free, after all. and little boards of about 3-1/8" x nearly 4" work fine much of the time for my little one-of's. My normal approach is to enter a particular schematic, the same one for every software package I evaluate, and if that works OK, I try to route it. In the case of CircuitMaker, the first 5 devices were not available, so I gave up. That's over half the parts. When I checked with the Tech SUpport guys, they told me the libraries I had been sent were complete and no revisions or additions were planned at that time. The version-3 OrCAD did, indeed have a timing simulator. It's called OrCAD VST, having to do with verification and simlation. There's also a PLD and a PCB package. The schematic capture part is SDT. It also provides an on-line link to PSpice, v3.xx and beyond, from within the schematic capture package. If I were buying a low-end schematic and PCB software suite, I'd certainly look at EAGLE before I look at MircoCode stuff again, but that's as much because of the cost difference as it is due to the library shortfall. Needless to say, these are my opinions and inclinations. YMMV Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 12:41 AM Subject: Re: Schematic capture/PCB design software >At 23:36 08-02-2000 -0700, you wrote: > >>I've got a sample package of CIrcuitMaker and TraxMaker and found it >>wanting, particularly in simulation models and device symbols. > > It would be. I don't believe Micro Code includes full libraries with the >sample versions. > >>would use the same package and symbol. They had nearly no AC or ACT parts >>represented, nor did they have BCT or F library components. Since you're >>paying for a simulator, there ought to be correct models for 7400, 74L00, >>74H00, 74C00, 74S00, 74LS00, 74AC00, 74ACT00, 74AHCT00, 74ACT00, 74AHCTLS00, > > A basic simulator at the digital level only looks at on/off states. That's >really all it has to do. Since all the parts you've listed above perform >EXACTLY the same function, and have the same symbol, I don't see why the >library has to include every possible variation on one part. > > FWIW, the current version of CircuitMaker Pro includes the following for >2-input NAND gates: > > 4011, 4093, 74F00, 74F132, 74F37, 74LS00, 74LS132, and 74LS37. > > While I agree that CM does need some help with their library, notably in >the more exotic components such as tunnel diodes, I have found it adequate >for my needs. The version of OrCAD you refer to only does schematic >capture, if I recall correctly, and has no simulation capabilities. > >>and so on. There ought also to be plenty of models for CMOS parts starting >>with 40xx, 44xx, 45xx, and a goodly number of 7300 and 7600 series parts. >>OrCAD had all that back in the mid-80's. They no longer offer that much >>coverage, owning to the increased knowledge of the user community, which >>would merely point out all their errors. > > I'm not sure I understand that last statement. If the omission of >components is itself an error, why would the "user community" not point it >out and ask for better coverage? > > Also, have you considered that there may be another reason? Specifically, >that the advancing state of technology where ICs are concerned has made >such wide varieties of parts unnecessary to accomplish a given task? > > To be perfectly honest, I've never heard of the 7300 or 7600 series parts. >I do know of TI's 75xxx series, which were line drivers/receivers, but I'm >curious about the ones you mention. > > Anyway, I feel that what CM lacks in library coverage is made up for in >other features. Also, there is nothing keeping you from adding to the >library. One can create their own SPICE models, though this is not >generally a trivial task, and I know there's at least one software package >available that lets you input specs from a databook and have it output a >SPICE model. > >>Have you found otherwise? > > As I've said: I've found that it serves my needs. I feel that it was a >good investment for the price I paid. Do I feel that most EDA software is >overpriced? Yes. Would I recommend CM and TM for any application? No. There >are better packages, but most are well beyond the hobbyist price range. > > Is there a need for an EDA package with better 'legacy' parts support? I >think so. I will continue to bug Micro Code about improving CM and TM along >those lines. In fact, we're probably due for an update this year. > > The bottom line is that a question was asked of the list members, and I >gave my opinion in response. The 'Free' packages simply do not suit my >needs. If they suit the needs of others, great! I was merely offering one >option out of many. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Feb 9 13:46:06 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: LISP machine Available Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000209114606.008c4100@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: >From my recent email: >I've got a friend that wants to get rid of a Symbolics 3650 LISP machine. It's >got the works, extra backplanes, manuals, full data tape set, tons and tons of >cables, 850MB harddrive. It's circa 1987. The asking price is **FREE**. He's >moving and doesn't want to move it with him. Or would you know of anyone else >who would want it? Anyone interested? I'm going to see this machine Thursday night. I'll take some photos and post them for anyone who might be interested. The computer is in Vancouver, BC. More info as I get it. Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From dburrows at netpath.net Wed Feb 9 13:51:57 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <0ed801bf7337$45756420$a652e780@L166> >Yes, I forgot to warn people. The oils in silicone grease >do evaporate slowly over time but there is almost nothing >that will fully remove it. I have had reasonable results >using Brake Clean but you have to be careful >with this also. It dissolves many plastics and most paints. >It is highly toxic and should be used in ventilated >areas only. > Don't get the grease on anything you don't want it on. >A little of the stuff goes a long way. >Dwight Another warning. Be very careful using chlorinated solvents near electrolytic caps. One of the labs I used to service did some studies on why one of their customers was having a high failure rate with the ends popping. They found the solvent they were using for flux removal was the cause. It broke down the seal at the vent hole. The caps were never in direct contact with the solvent - just the vapors were enough. Dan From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Feb 9 13:55:27 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Product review websites? Message-ID: <4.1.20000209144246.00b38be0@206.231.8.2> Hi group, I've been hunting for a new CD-ROM drive and a 4-6 Gig hard disk for a PC box. So far I've not found any decent websites who have *objective* reviews of these products between different manufacturers. For example, I _don't_ think I want another Creative brand CD-ROM as the one I put in my son's box died after less than a year. I can't spend too much $$ as I'm just getting back to work (finally) and am a bit dry, so low-to-moderate cost devices would be okay as this isn't a mission critical application. Reasonable reliability is an important factor (e.g., the thing lasts for 2+ years). Any thoughts? Please reply offline as this is definitely off topic. Many thanks for your wisdom! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Feb 9 14:00:27 2000 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: free machines in Woodbridge VA Message-ID: <200002092000.PAA15822@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> BTW, if you live in the Woodbridge area, and would be willing to help in the rescue by picking up, packing up, and shipping things to people who are interested but not proximal enough, drop me a line. It seems safe to assume that interested parties will be willing to pay shipping costs, at least. (I'm a few hundred miles away, so I can't reasonably do it.) Thanks, Bill. > Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:49:42 -0500 (EST) > From: Bill Yakowenko > Subject: free machines in Woodbridge VA > > Hey all, > > Once upon a time, I wrote asking for volunteers to rescue some machines > in Woodbridge VA. There was a PDP-11/34 that got rescued, but there > is still a big pile up there that is headed for the scrap heap unless > somebody picks it up. Of course, the remainder is mostly PC > crap^H^H^H^Hstuff, but some of it is old enough to be of possible > interest. > > Let me know if you're interested. (The guy dumping this stuff really > would like it to find good homes, but he still doesn't want to be > overrun by dozens of requests, so I'm still trying to coordinate things.) > > Without further ado, here's the list brought back by our recon guy, > Al Corda . Some of it may be gone by now, but most is > probably still there: > > > ] As of today (1/10/00) items of interest I have identified > ] include the following: > ] > ] 3 or 4 Gen-u-ine DEC VT100s (some with keyboards! :-) > ] > ] A number of IBM XTs (Yeh, I know, but I included them for > ] completeness :-) > ] A number of IBM ATs (Just plain ATs, no AT370s or AT3270s (so far)) > ] > ] 2 Compaq Plus Luggables > ] > ] A bunch of LaserWriter II printers in various states of repair > ] A bunch of Spinwriter printers of various makes. > ] > ] 2 Photocopiers (1 Canon Npf-270, one Xerox (not certain of model)) > ] > ] A bunch of PC monitors, mostly monochrome or CGA (no VGA as far as I > ] could tell) > ] > ] A couple of cases of various PC software from the early 90's > ] (stuff like RBASE, etc.) > ] > ] 3 or 4 large _HEAVY_ units that on brief inspection strike me as > ] UPS (or line conditioner) units. No manufacturers markings were > ] obvious (but I wasn't going to try to turn one over. My back is > ] worth more to me than any UPS.) > ] > ] Piles of office telephones, Old modems, Various unidentifiable > ] electronic assemblies of dubious origin, Boxes and boxes of cables, > ] wire, etc. > > Cheers, > Bill. > > > PS. I've been _way_ behind on answering e-mail lately, so remind me > in your reply that this is time-sensitive, and that machines will > get crushed if I nap. :-/ From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Feb 9 14:54:54 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: ; from mtapley@swri.edu on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 10:32:28AM -0600 References: <200002091440.IAA28822@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20000209155454.A30000@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 10:32:28AM -0600, Mark Tapley wrote: > True. The Contamination Engineer on the NASA program I'm working on > swears by "Simple Green", a widely available (grocery-store) detergent, for > removing silicon grease. She recommends the clear, unscented version of it, > which she uses on our flight hardware. To show *true* pathetic nerdliness, you should always refer to this stuff as "Soylent Green" (well the existing name doesn't really mean anything anyway). If you're lucky, eventually someone will ask you, "what's soylent green?" John Wilson D Bit From elvey at hal.com Wed Feb 9 14:56:03 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: <0ed801bf7337$45756420$a652e780@L166> Message-ID: <200002092056.MAA04008@civic.hal.com> "Daniel T. Burrows" wrote: > > Another warning. Be very careful using chlorinated solvents near > electrolytic caps. One of the labs I used to service did some studies on > why one of their customers was having a high failure rate with the ends > popping. They found the solvent they were using for flux removal was the > cause. It broke down the seal at the vent hole. The caps were never in > direct contact with the solvent - just the vapors were enough. > > Dan Interesting. I hadden thought of that as a potential problem. Most electrolitic caps now days use that same bubber seal. I would think that petrolium oils and ozone from chrona disharge would also degrade them. Surpisingly, silicone grease is often used to protect rubber. I would guess, one should put a light coat of the grease on the rubber parts before using the brake clean ( found another use ). Dwight From markp at wccls.lib.or.us Wed Feb 9 15:17:35 2000 From: markp at wccls.lib.or.us (Mark Price) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? Message-ID: Our apartment complex's dumpster is a good source for home electronica (a 13" B&W TV, a cassette deck, a receiver reeking of cigarettes when warmed up, 2 boom boxes, all in working order...), but I've come across only one PC (clone 386). Who has good dumpsters for finding computers? Retailers? Universities? OT, sorta: Our local Goodwill stores here in Portland have the maddening habit of putting all the monitors on these shelves, all the boxes on those shelves, and all the keyboards in that big bin over there... Found the keyboard for a Mac 512k or Plus but could never find the monitor&breadloaf. Then, in the checkout line, I saw it in a cart! Didn't get the machine, but the guy was happy I found the keyboard for him. Later, I thought Idiot! I shoulda checked their dumpster for other odds'n'ends. I've volunteered before to help assemble complete systems, but they don't have the shelf space for it. Good list, Jay. long-time listener, first-time caller, Mark > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com [SMTP:CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com] > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 6:51 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: How far can you reach in a dumpster? > > > You must be a lot taller than I am. I jump up on the side and lean > right > >in. > > My favorite technique is to back my car up to the dumpster, pop the trunk > open, climb on my bumper then into the dumpster, and start sorting and > tossing the good stuff into the trunk. > > A good number of the PDP-11 freeware tapes in the archives were rescued > that way :-). > > Tim. From rmeenaks at olf.com Wed Feb 9 15:33:03 2000 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Need a SUN-based VME system Message-ID: <38A1DD0F.E5B80B76@olf.com> Hi, I need a VME-based SUN system or better yet a SBUS to VME component. I also need a VME rack as well. Does anyone have one or know of one that is being dumped???? Ram PS: Is the Sun 3/50 VME-based?? -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 9 16:10:43 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >OT, sorta: Our local Goodwill stores here in Portland have the maddening >habit of putting all the monitors on these shelves, all the boxes on those >shelves, and all the keyboards in that big bin over there... Found the Don't forget that at least in the Portland area you have to make a day of it and go to *ALL* the Goodwill stores in the area. You'll find one part of the system in Beaverton, another in Tigard, another on Burnside, then another at the main store. Zane (assuming you don't mean Portland, Maine) | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 9 16:12:47 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Need a SUN-based VME system In-Reply-To: <38A1DD0F.E5B80B76@olf.com> Message-ID: >Hi, > >I need a VME-based SUN system or better yet a SBUS to VME component. >I also need a VME rack as well. Does anyone have one or know of one >that is being dumped???? > >Ram > >PS: Is the Sun 3/50 VME-based?? I _think_ that's a 68k based pizza box. Check http://www.sunhelp.org for pointers to info on the various models. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From red at bears.org Wed Feb 9 16:12:53 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: LISP machine Available In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000209114606.008c4100@mail.sfu.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > >I've got a friend that wants to get rid of a Symbolics 3650 LISP machine. > It's > >got the works, extra backplanes, manuals, full data tape set, tons and > tons of > >cables, 850MB harddrive. It's circa 1987. The asking price is **FREE**. > > Anyone interested? YES! > The computer is in Vancouver, BC. More info as I get it. Wonderful, I'm a few hours south in Edmonds WA, I could pick it up easily. One thing though, I would like to find out the physical dimensions of the CPU cabinet and monitor so I can determine whether or not they will fit in my car, or if I will have to borrow my father's truck. Thanks! I've been looking for one of these machines for a while. (: ok r. From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Feb 9 16:15:29 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: ; from markp@wccls.lib.or.us on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 01:17:35PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20000209161529.J18249@mrbill.net> On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 01:17:35PM -0800, Mark Price wrote: > OT, sorta: Our local Goodwill stores here in Portland have the maddening > habit of putting all the monitors on these shelves, all the boxes on those > shelves, and all the keyboards in that big bin over there... Found the > keyboard for a Mac 512k or Plus but could never find the monitor&breadloaf. > Then, in the checkout line, I saw it in a cart! Didn't get the machine, but > the guy was happy I found the keyboard for him. Later, I thought Idiot! I > shoulda checked their dumpster for other odds'n'ends. I've volunteered > before to help assemble complete systems, but they don't have the shelf > space for it. Here in Austin, they have a "Goodwill Computerworks" - all they sell is computers. They'll routinely get FOUR OR FIVE semi-truck-loads of equipment in at once - but they have signs up threatening arrest for dumpster diving, and the police routinely patrol around back. 8-( I've seen pallets full of equipment SIT OUT IN THE RAIN before. 8-( Bill -- +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@pdp11.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | | http://www.sunhelp.org | http://www.pdp11.org | http://www.mrbill.net | +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Wed Feb 9 16:19:51 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Need a SUN-based VME system In-Reply-To: <38A1DD0F.E5B80B76@olf.com> from Ram Meenakshisundaram at "Feb 9, 2000 04:33:03 pm" Message-ID: <20000209222001Z433912-25457+234@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Hi, > > I need a VME-based SUN system or better yet a SBUS to VME component. > I also need a VME rack as well. Does anyone have one or know of one > that is being dumped???? > > Ram > > PS: Is the Sun 3/50 VME-based?? > The 3/50 is a single board system, there is no bus (except the external SCSI). -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From aek at spies.com Wed Feb 9 16:46:10 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Need a SUN-based VME system Message-ID: <200002092246.OAA00585@spies.com> ">PS: Is the Sun 3/50 VME-based?? I _think_ that's a 68k based pizza box. Check http://www.sunhelp.org for pointers to info on the various models. " No, neither is is 3/60 The 3/110, 3/150 or 4/110's were in four slot VME chassis. Most of the rest were in either rack mounted 12 slot desk or rack mount chassis. I'm rather fond of the 12 slot rack mount chassis, myself. Easy to work on, with a big power supply. There was also a 7 slot desk side chassis. I haven't seen too many VME Sun systems getting thrown away any more, most of them now are first and second generation Sun 4's. From aek at spies.com Wed Feb 9 16:47:49 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? Message-ID: <200002092247.OAA00645@spies.com> "They'll routinely get FOUR OR FIVE semi-truck-loads of equipment in at once - but they have signs up threatening arrest for dumpster diving, and the police routinely patrol around back. 8-(" Let me guess, they only put out PC stuff and Macs, and throw the rest away, because it doesn't sell? Since Austin was the home of the TI Computer division, is there ANY 990 series minicomputer stuff that shows up down there? From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Feb 9 17:06:29 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When refering to the "Main store" do you mean the one on Mcloughin(?)? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >OT, sorta: Our local Goodwill stores here in Portland have the maddening > >habit of putting all the monitors on these shelves, all the boxes on those > >shelves, and all the keyboards in that big bin over there... Found the > > Don't forget that at least in the Portland area you have to make a day of > it and go to *ALL* the Goodwill stores in the area. You'll find one part > of the system in Beaverton, another in Tigard, another on Burnside, then > another at the main store. > > Zane (assuming you don't mean Portland, Maine) > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 9 16:59:07 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000209165907.01471d30@pc> At 01:17 PM 2/9/00 -0800, Mark Price wrote: >Our apartment complex's dumpster is a good source for home electronica (a >13" B&W TV, a cassette deck, a receiver reeking of cigarettes when warmed >up, 2 boom boxes, all in working order...), but I've come across only one PC >(clone 386). Who has good dumpsters for finding computers? Retailers? >Universities? I live in a tiny town of 6,000 people. My local mom-and-pop computer store (repair, Internet, service, they do it all) routinely tosses out semi-dead motherboards (the serial port got zapped, no one wants a separate serial card, so it's history), too-small hard drives, working VGA-ish monitors, etc. I can't imagine what a larger repair shop would routinely toss. - John From jallain at databaseamerica.com Wed Feb 9 17:07:55 2000 From: jallain at databaseamerica.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: <20000209161529.J18249@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <000001bf7352$8097d590$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> I personally find this discussion thread to be scary at best. What does it say about us? My favorite "dives": The MIT Flea Market The Foothill Flea Market (haven't been since '88) This list. eBay. The curbsides of suburbia Found the following: Mac Performa, Mac Scanner, PS2/30 complete, Syquest, Butcher block table, ... The Greenwich Dump Somebody dumped about a dozen Macs there just before Y2K. Funny since Macs always were Y2K compliant. I took One. and a scanner. One of Five randomly selected Scrap houses in the San Jose area. Companies in the process of "BPR". Went to my first open house auction in the No.Cal office of my old employer Calma. It was essentially a Giant three floor tag sale. There was One row of cubicles not with price tags and taped off with a "do not enter" sign on a sheet of paper. That was the 10 remaining people left there, still working. My favorite dumpster story. Walked all the way to The Jacob Javitz Convention center in NYC once for an Internet exhibition. On the way there passed several dangerous neighborhoods. Was reassured(?) to catch a glimpse of one kindly Gentleman reclining to get some noontime sun; seemed like a happy unthreatening type. He was of course reclining in his dumpster. John A. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 9 17:29:30 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: from "George Rachor" at Feb 09, 2000 03:06:29 PM Message-ID: <200002092329.PAA03389@shell1.aracnet.com> > > When refering to the "Main store" do you mean the one on Mcloughin(?)? > Is that the one down by OMSI? If so yes. What can I say, I don't know Portland that well. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 9 17:31:05 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000209165907.01471d30@pc> from "John Foust" at Feb 09, 2000 04:59:07 PM Message-ID: <200002092331.PAA03478@shell1.aracnet.com> > working VGA-ish monitors, etc. I can't imagine what a larger > repair shop would routinely toss. > > - John Repair shop? What's that? I thought everyone just bought a whole new system these days. Zane From markp at wccls.lib.or.us Wed Feb 9 17:32:03 2000 From: markp at wccls.lib.or.us (Mark Price) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? Message-ID: >Don't forget that at least in the Portland area you have to make a day of >it and go to *ALL* the Goodwill stores in the area. You'll find one part >of the system in Beaverton, another in Tigard, another on Burnside, then >another at the main store. > Zane (assuming you don't mean Portland, Maine) You are correct, sir. Portland, Oregon, I should have said. (Forgive my provincialism, good people of Maine!) You're also correct about systems and collections getting scattered among various outlets. But then, you first learn that lesson as a teenager pedal your bike around, paperback-shopping: "Lessee here, _Fellowship of the Ring_ was at that store, _Two Towers_ is at this one, wonder who's got _Return of the King_...?" Mark From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 9 17:35:36 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: <200002092331.PAA03478@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20000209165907.01471d30@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000209173536.0271e940@pc> At 03:31 PM 2/9/00 -0800, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: >Repair shop? What's that? I thought everyone just bought a whole new >system these days. The repair shop is the place you go to when you want someone to tell you to just replace your entire system. - John From markp at wccls.lib.or.us Wed Feb 9 17:35:45 2000 From: markp at wccls.lib.or.us (Mark Price) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? Message-ID: >I live in a tiny town of 6,000 people. My local mom-and-pop computer >store (repair, Internet, service, they do it all) routinely tosses out >semi-dead motherboards (the serial port got zapped, no one wants a >separate serial card, so it's history), too-small hard drives, >working VGA-ish monitors, etc. I can't imagine what a larger >repair shop would routinely toss. >- John Do they have signs threatening dumpster-divers with slow painful death like the thrift stores do? Mark From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 9 17:49:03 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Need a SUN-based VME system In-Reply-To: <200002092246.OAA00585@spies.com> from "Al Kossow" at Feb 09, 2000 02:46:10 PM Message-ID: <200002092349.PAA04558@shell1.aracnet.com> > > ">PS: Is the Sun 3/50 VME-based?? > > I _think_ that's a 68k based pizza box. Check http://www.sunhelp.org for > pointers to info on the various models. > " > > No, neither is is 3/60 > > The 3/110, 3/150 or 4/110's were in four slot VME chassis. Most of the > rest were in either rack mounted 12 slot desk or rack mount chassis. > I'm rather fond of the 12 slot rack mount chassis, myself. Easy to > work on, with a big power supply. There was also a 7 slot desk side > chassis. Better look again. Both the 3/50 and 3/60 are Pizza Boxes. The 3/75 is apparently a 2 VME Slot Pizza Box, now that sounds wierd! See http://www.sunhelp.org/faq/sunref1.html I suspect what he really wants is the following, and these do show up from time to time on USENET: SPARCserver 6xxMP/xx Processor(s): Mbus modules CPU: 501-1686/2055 Chassis type: rackmount Bus: VME; SBus @ 20MHz; and Mbus Memory: 640M physical Architecture: sun4m Notes: First Mbus-based machine. Cypress/ROSS Mbus modules later upgraded to TI SuperSPARC modules (/xx models). Code name "Galaxy". Up to four CPUs. 4M or 16M x 9 80ns 30-pin SIMMs. Not sure how many VMS slots, but they're a nice system, I've use a highly modified one stuffed into a pair of 19" racks (complete with 2 big monitors and keyboards). Or just get an Auspex Fileserver, they're still selling servers with VME backplanes. Of course you don't want to know what they cost ;^) Zane From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Feb 9 17:42:26 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Microvax 3100 Model 30 in Kansas City Message-ID: Just came across a surplus MicroVax 3100 model 30. Anyone want it? Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu Computer surplus scrounger, bin diver, pallet mover, dust blower, classic computer lover, non PC computer discoverer, lover of old but not forgotten technology From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Feb 9 18:02:28 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Microvax 3100 Model 30 in Kansas City In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike" at "Feb 9, 2000 05:42:26 pm" Message-ID: <200002100002.TAA30954@bg-tc-ppp37.monmouth.com> > > Just came across a surplus MicroVax 3100 model 30. Anyone want it? > Mike > mmcfadden@cmh.edu > Computer surplus scrounger, bin diver, pallet mover, dust blower, classic > computer lover, non PC computer discoverer, lover of old but not forgotten > technology I've got a Model 38 VaxStation I'm working to restore... Is that a Qbus box or Vaxstation? Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bpechter@monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org|pechter@pechter.bsdonline.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From markp at wccls.lib.or.us Wed Feb 9 18:05:11 2000 From: markp at wccls.lib.or.us (Mark Price) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:55 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? Message-ID: >I personally find this discussion thread to be scary at best. >What does it say about us? A. cheapskates B. friends to Mother Earth C. need a life D. all of the above Mark From aek at spies.com Wed Feb 9 18:12:38 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Need a SUN-based VME system Message-ID: <200002100012.QAA05350@spies.com> "Better look again. Both the 3/50 and 3/60 are Pizza Boxes. The 3/75 is apparently a 2 VME Slot Pizza Box, now that sounds wierd! " I forgot about that one (mostly because the power supplies burned up a lot in them..) They were "Carrera" (68020) CPU boards, with a VME SCSI board in the second slot. There are also a bunch of third party 6U VME Sun compatible CPU cards that were made. Since the application for the system wasn't specified, it's tough to suggest what type of system is appropriate. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Feb 9 18:24:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: TK50 with KA650 Message-ID: <200002100024.TAA00163@world.std.com> Hello, Glad to find something besides friction that takes that white silicon grease off things. A friend of mine calls it whale snot. I prefer the clear stuff over the white glop anyday. gary HIldebrand Amigaphile WA7KKP scrounger 1st Class From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Feb 9 23:27:12 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: dumpster diving and other sources of goodies Message-ID: Hello, ladies and gents out there I have found good stuff in the dollar bin at Computer Renaissance: 2 working monitors for my Amiga and a Tandberg 525meg tape backup Price: $1.00 per And I don't get dirty or smelly in the process. And I also recommend going to hamfests -- amateur radio fleamarkets. Quite a few guys get this stuff and try to peddle it for a couple bucks. My favorite line is -- How badly do you want to take this boatanchor home?? At one hamfest I found 19 used DSDD 3.5" drives for $30. These are the standard Amiga drive, but useless anywhere else. Get snooping out there -- the used market is drying up fast due to the low low cost of new stuff. Gary Hildebrand Amigaphile WA7KKP scrounger 1st Class From red at bears.org Wed Feb 9 18:44:46 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: silicon grease removal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Glad to find something besides friction that takes that white silicon grease > off things. A friend of mine calls it whale snot. I prefer the clear stuff > over the white glop anyday. Ah.. the white stuff is almost assuredly not silicon grease, but rather titanium dioxide. It's commonly used as a thermal paste, and if the dust is inhaled it is highly toxic. As long as the paste is still plastic though you're fairly safe. It's when it's dried out you really want to be careful with it. ok r. From elvey at hal.com Wed Feb 9 19:02:55 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: silicon grease removal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002100102.RAA07140@civic.hal.com> Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Hello, > > Glad to find something besides friction that takes that white silicon grease > off things. A friend of mine calls it whale snot. I prefer the clear stuff > over the white glop anyday. Also, don't use the white stuff for connectors. It doesn't work. The whiTe ( zink oxide I think )filler gets in the way. Use only the clear stuff. Dwight From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 9 19:15:46 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <20000210011546.71481.qmail@hotmail.com> Umm, interesting to hear that about simple green.... that would be the stuff that I've always used to clean toilets and tile floors... Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 9 19:21:25 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: dumpster diving and other sources of goodies In-Reply-To: from "Gary Hildebrand" at Feb 10, 2000 12:27:12 AM Message-ID: <200002100121.RAA07581@shell1.aracnet.com> Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Hello, ladies and gents out there > > I have found good stuff in the dollar bin at Computer Renaissance: > > 2 working monitors for my Amiga and a Tandberg 525meg tape backup > > Price: $1.00 per Where on earth are you? The best non-PC/non-Mac stuff I've seen at the Computer Renaissance in Beaverton, Oregon is some DEC DB25/MMJ adapters (which filled a *MUCH* needed hole in my collection). Actually they're the only non-PC/non-Mac stuff I've seen. I've asked the people about that and they recommend people take all older PC/Mac stuff, and all non-PC/non-Mac stuff to the Goodwill a couple blocks away. Zane From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 9 19:21:46 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000209192146.00befb30@pc> At 03:35 PM 2/9/00 -0800, Mark Price wrote: > Do they have signs threatening dumpster-divers with slow painful >death like the thrift stores do? No, they bring their garbage to the curb on Monday morning, right on time and in place for my drive to the office. I know them well enough, but all the begging in the world hasn't convinced them to set every last living bit of something with a wire on it for me like I've asked. Another great source of machines is company auctions. A lot of companies sell their old written-off computers at deep discounts to their employees or anyone else who will pay for them. You'll only hear about these if all your friends know you're a scrounger. - John From aek at spies.com Wed Feb 9 19:53:00 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <200002100153.RAA11580@spies.com> "Umm, interesting to hear that about simple green.... that would be the stuff that I've always used to clean toilets and tile floors... " It's also widely used in arcade game collector circles for restoring control panels. One thing i'm wondering about is what the military uses for this problem (not everything is conformally coated). I remember looking at the web page for Stabilant 22, and it left me (on purpose, no doubt) wondering exactly what the stuff really was. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Feb 9 19:54:37 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Our apartment complex's dumpster is a good source for home electronica (a >13" B&W TV, a cassette deck, a receiver reeking of cigarettes when warmed >up, 2 boom boxes, all in working order...), but I've come across only one PC >(clone 386). Who has good dumpsters for finding computers? Retailers? After an auction on pickup days the dumpsters often get pretty good. From foxnhare at jps.net Wed Feb 9 20:22:31 2000 From: foxnhare at jps.net (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: [CC] Clarifying my "Wanted" posting. References: <200002091440.IAA28822@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <38A220E5.2CC769B1@jps.net> > Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 23:25:04 GMT > From: "David Vohs" > Subject: Re: [CC] Clarifying my "Wanted" posting. > > First off, here is my original posting: > > >I am looking for a copy of the old Macintosh speech synthesizer program > >called "Smooth Talker" from First Byte. I had this program >on a floppy > >that my electronics teacher gave to me last year, but >the floppy has since > >worn out & I have been searching *everywhere* >for a copy, but to no avail. > >If you have a copy, *do not* send me a >disk image, as my Mac > (original Mac >upgraded to Mac Plus specs.) >does not recognize them at all. I must > ask, > >however, that it come on >an 800K floppy, 400K is not enough space! > >I am looking for a driver for aforementioned Macintosh for an Apple > Color >Stylewriter 2400. I don't want that printer to be reduced to >dust > magnet >status! > > Clarification: I am looking for the aforementioned drivers/programs *on a > disk*, *NOT* as a disk image! Disk images are totally useless to me, & > my Mac does not like them *at all*. I tried to make a disk image once, > but it didn't work. The only 'StyleWriter' class printer you would get going on your 'Plus specced' mac, would be either a Stylewriter or Stylewriter II, and would require at least system 6. :/ You need 68020 mac or better for the color stylewriters. -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-14.4 bps Commodore 8-bit page at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Feb 9 20:24:26 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? Message-ID: <20000209.202427.155.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Wed, 09 Feb 2000 19:21:46 -0600 John Foust writes: >Another great source of machines is company auctions. A lot of >companies sell their old written-off computers at deep discounts >to their employees or anyone else who will pay for them. >You'll only hear about these if all your friends know you're a >scrounger. *GRRRRRRR!!!* *Dont* Get me started with this! Our MIS department is manned by a bunch of goosestepping Nazi brownshirts who *insist* on giving all of our surplus machines to a 'wholesaler'. They used to sell/give them to employees, but changed the 'policy' last year. "We don't have the time to prepare these machines for employees to buy them". Lame, stupid, BS reason. @#$%&* Where's my valium? Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From rcini at msn.com Wed Feb 9 20:31:22 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress Message-ID: <013801bf7370$29c3ea60$4987113f@office1> Hello, all: For those not necessarily following my 6502-based SBC project on my Web site, here's the latest. The schematics are done, I just have to make some minor tweaks. Then I can work on the PCB layout. The board size is now 9"x7", which is way bigger than I anticipated. There are 20 ICs on the board, most of which are 24, 28, or 40 pin jobbies. Anyway, what I'm going to do is make DXF pictures out of them and post them to my site for all to see. Comments will be welcomed. Once the design is finalized, I'll have a prototype board made so that I can see if it works. Rich [ Rich Cini [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> ? From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Feb 9 20:53:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Microvax 3100 Model 30 in Kansas City Message-ID: <200002100253.VAA01467@world.std.com> <> Just came across a surplus MicroVax 3100 model 30. Anyone want it? <> Mike < Message-ID: <200002100307.TAA08825@civic.hal.com> Al Kossow wrote: > "Umm, interesting to hear that about simple green.... that would be the stuff > that I've always used to clean toilets and tile floors... > " > > It's also widely used in arcade game collector circles for restoring control > panels. > > One thing i'm wondering about is what the military uses for this problem (not > everything is conformally coated). I remember looking at the web page for > Stabilant 22, and it left me (on purpose, no doubt) wondering exactly what > the stuff really was. Hi If it is what I think it is, it is some solvents and a little silicone oil. They most likely get the silicone oil from the same people that make the stuff for car wax. I used the stuff for liquid cooling once on a project in a past life. It has some interesting properties if anyone cares. It didn't make a vary good coolant but it also didn't damage anything it leaked on, unless you consider my butt after slipping on the floor. Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Feb 9 21:51:46 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: silicon grease removal Message-ID: <200002100351.WAA08180@world.std.com> --- "Richard A. Cini, Jr." wrote: > Hello, all: > > For those not necessarily following my 6502-based SBC project on my Web > site, here's the latest. > > The schematics are done, I just have to make some minor tweaks. Then I > can work on the PCB layout. With all the recent discussion, I'd like to know what you are using for layout software. > Anyway, what I'm going to do is make DXF pictures out of them and post > them to my site for all to see. Comments will be welcomed. Cool. > Once the design is finalized, I'll have a prototype board made so that I > can see if it works. I'd also be interested in knowing who's burning your prototype and how much it runs you. I still have delusions of completing my 1802 SBC. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From red at bears.org Wed Feb 9 22:02:04 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: silicon grease removal In-Reply-To: <200002100351.WAA08180@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Allison J Parent wrote: > > I think your confusing Berillium Oxide (BeO, very bad stuff) with Titanium > dioxide(commonly used to make white) which is nearly inert. You're right, I was. It's beryllium oxide to which I was referring, not titanium dioxide. I have a friend who is a painter and a father who is an electronic tech and it's a wonder I can remember in the morning where I left my glasses the night before; you do the math. (: ok r. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Feb 9 22:19:16 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress Message-ID: <006701bf737d$ff1166e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, and I got a spam from an easter-European company offering to make up to 16-layer boards (large, but I don't remember how large) for $26 each, quantity 1. Silkscreen and Solder mask were extra. Now I 've got to see where I stashed it. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 9:14 PM Subject: Re: My6502 Progress >--- "Richard A. Cini, Jr." wrote: >> Hello, all: >> >> For those not necessarily following my 6502-based SBC project on my Web >> site, here's the latest. >> >> The schematics are done, I just have to make some minor tweaks. Then I >> can work on the PCB layout. > >With all the recent discussion, I'd like to know what you are using for >layout software. > >> Anyway, what I'm going to do is make DXF pictures out of them and post >> them to my site for all to see. Comments will be welcomed. > >Cool. > >> Once the design is finalized, I'll have a prototype board made so that I >> can see if it works. > >I'd also be interested in knowing who's burning your prototype and how much >it runs you. I still have delusions of completing my 1802 SBC. > >-ethan > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Feb 9 23:15:36 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: <200002092247.OAA00645@spies.com>; from aek@spies.com on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 02:47:49PM -0800 References: <200002092247.OAA00645@spies.com> Message-ID: <20000209231536.Q18249@mrbill.net> On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 02:47:49PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > "They'll routinely get FOUR OR FIVE semi-truck-loads of equipment > in at once - but they have signs up threatening arrest for dumpster diving, > and the police routinely patrol around back. 8-(" > Let me guess, they only put out PC stuff and Macs, and throw the rest > away, because it doesn't sell? Actually, they put out the PC stuff, some Mac stuff, and tend to auction off most of the rest twice a week by the pallet-load. Unfortunately, I've never been able to get off work to go to the auction. > Since Austin was the home of the TI Computer division, is there ANY 990 > series minicomputer stuff that shows up down there? Not that I've seen, just your standard TI 99/4A stuff on their "8bit table". I've picked up some neat things there, and they're starting to put out the more obscure stuff, after the guy that runs the place (Jamie) learned that there are a bunch of freaks like me who will buy anything. 8-) I've picked up a Livingston Portmaster IRX for $30, etc. -- +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@pdp11.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | | http://www.sunhelp.org | http://www.pdp11.org | http://www.mrbill.net | +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Feb 9 23:17:41 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: ; from markp@wccls.lib.or.us on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 04:05:11PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20000209231741.R18249@mrbill.net> On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 04:05:11PM -0800, Mark Price wrote: > >I personally find this discussion thread to be scary at best. > >What does it say about us? > A. cheapskates > B. friends to Mother Earth > C. need a life > D. all of the above > Mark D. Too much storage space (I have a 2 car garage, personally) E. Not married, or we bribe the SO into accepting our hobby F. All of the above 8-) -- +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@pdp11.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | | http://www.sunhelp.org | http://www.pdp11.org | http://www.mrbill.net | +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Feb 10 00:25:08 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: <20000209231536.Q18249@mrbill.net> References: <200002092247.OAA00645@spies.com> <200002092247.OAA00645@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000209222508.00940980@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 23:15 09-02-2000 -0600, you wrote: >I've picked up a Livingston Portmaster IRX for $30, etc. The IRX is a heck of a router, Bill. I have one myself (about $120 at the Foothill Swap Meet last summer). They're still very much sold and supported by AT&T/Lucent. In fact, there's a new version of its operating system due to be released this year. I've gotten to be fairly conversant with mine. Let me know if you want to trade notes. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Feb 10 01:31:40 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: <20000209161529.J18249@mrbill.net> References: ; from markp@wccls.lib.or.us on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 01:17:35PM -0800 Message-ID: >Here in Austin, they have a "Goodwill Computerworks" - all they sell is >computers. They'll routinely get FOUR OR FIVE semi-truck-loads of equipment >in at once - but they have signs up threatening arrest for dumpster diving, >and the police routinely patrol around back. 8-( Same at Santa Ana, CA Goodwill, except they have a bunch of their own guards roaming around, plus security video cameras. Items left, BELONG to Goodwill, and generally they get at least a few pennies per pound selling even junk to scrap dealers. OTOH begging or bidding on items about to be offered sometimes works. To remove any doubt, the Goodwill donation box is NOT a dumpster, stay out of it. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Feb 10 01:48:45 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: dumpster diving and other sources of goodies In-Reply-To: <200002100121.RAA07581@shell1.aracnet.com> References: from "Gary Hildebrand" at Feb 10, 2000 12:27:12 AM Message-ID: >Where on earth are you? The best non-PC/non-Mac stuff I've seen at the >Computer Renaissance in Beaverton, Oregon is some DEC DB25/MMJ adapters I didn't find anything I liked at the San Diego Computer Renaissance store, but I do know one thing, they are a MAJOR wholesale buyer of used monitors. From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Feb 10 03:58:17 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! Message-ID: <57.1bc412e.25d3e5b9@aol.com> The best dumpster I ever hit was a ComputerLand in San Mateo when they went out of business in the early 90s. I went to their going out of business sale and realized they would have lots of leftovers. After the sale I filled my Honda car two nights in a row, spending about 3 to 4 hrs a night burrowing from one end of their dumpster to the other. The second night I had so much jammed into the Honda there was barely room for me. The passenger seat was so full it towered over me as I was driving. I barely made it back over the bridge to Hayward, where I was staying. I had to use one hand to keep the stuff from collapsing on me. All PC stuff of course. After they realized that someone was dumpster diving they broke every card they put in. >From 1990 to 1992 I regularly checked Microware's Beaverton, OR dumpster. They were a major west coast distributor until they had financial trouble from expanding too fast. Ross-Dove held a huge liquidation auction which had some very good trash. I pulled quite a few brand new motherboards, cards and hard drives in boxes from that dumpster. Also in the early 90s Mentor Graphics was liquidating lots of Apollo 100, 300, 400 and 600 boxes. I pulled a bunch of circuit cards and software from the dumpster at their auxiliary storage. It was so interesting I started checking their main plant until security chased me away. My recommendation is to check computer businesses going out of business. Computer manufacturers going out of business or downsizing are also good. Check the major auctions like Ross Dove that happen in your area. Computer distributors often have good dumpsters also. My favorite story though is one of my scrapper friends. He had some Chinese buyers visiting him. They had gone through his yard in Bend and were on their way to Portland. Cruising through the industrial area of Albany he spotted a dumpster full of good scrap wire. While he wanted to look he wasn't sure of how these Chinese businessmen would take it. He decided what the hell and pulled his truck up beside the dumpster. Needless to say the Chinese were the first on top of the dumpster happily yarding the scrap into the truck. They were having a great time until the local police showed up and made them put all the wire back in the dumpster. I bet it made for great stories back home. Dumpster diving is lots of fun. Especially if you just dive in. Paxton From thomas.h.lindberg at se.abb.com Thu Feb 10 05:34:12 2000 From: thomas.h.lindberg at se.abb.com (thomas.h.lindberg@se.abb.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! Message-ID: <41256881.003F8DF3.00@smtp02.seinf.abb.se> A coule of years ago we had two very tragic dumpster stories in Sweden, three kids vere killed while reading magazines in covered newspaper/magazine dumpsters. The kids had seaked in through the narrow opening where we dump our old newspapers/magazines and sat there while the truck came to pick up the dumpster content. The dumpster was automatically emptied into a compacter at the truck and all taken to the fragmentation site where the kids wer found crushed. The dumpster openings are now just about the size of a mail box. Thomas From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 10 08:22:56 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: silicon grease removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000210092256.46a7a018@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:44 PM 2/9/00 -0500, Bear Stricklin wrote: >On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > >> Glad to find something besides friction that takes that white silicon grease >> off things. A friend of mine calls it whale snot. I prefer the clear stuff >> over the white glop anyday. > >Ah.. the white stuff is almost assuredly not silicon grease, but rather >titanium dioxide. It's commonly used as a thermal paste, and if the dust >is inhaled it is highly toxic. As long as the paste is still plastic >though you're fairly safe. It's when it's dried out you really want to be >careful with it. Hmmm. All the thermal goo that I've seen uses zinc oxide, not titanium dioxide. It also never dries out. But I think the stuff that Gary was referring to is Silicon Rubber or RTV. It comes in clear, white, black and I think silver. Some people use a gob of it to hold connectors together. Watch out what kind you use, the normal house hold stuff forms acetic acid (vinegar) as it cures and will cause corrosion. Get the stuff that doesn't smell like vinegar. There's also a type that's made for coating circuit boards, it flows more than the normal stuff and will flow out to cover everything. The DOW brand of this type is type 3140 RTV coaating and meets MIL-A-446146. Don't use it unless you NEVER want to get the item apart. You'll NEVER get it out from under and in between everything. Joe Joe From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Feb 10 07:45:57 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! Message-ID: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: thomas.h.lindberg@se.abb.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 6:37 AM Subject: Re: Dumpster stories! > > >A coule of years ago we had two very tragic dumpster stories in Sweden, >three kids vere killed while reading magazines in covered >newspaper/magazine dumpsters. >The kids had seaked in through the narrow opening where we dump our old >newspapers/magazines and sat there while the truck came to pick up the >dumpster content. The dumpster was automatically emptied into a compacter >at the truck and all taken to the fragmentation site where the kids wer >found crushed. >The dumpster openings are now just about the size of a mail box. > I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?) not to enter one. There are so many better ways to find old computers in much better condition than something thrown into a dumpster with everything else piled on top. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com >Thomas > > > From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 10 09:00:23 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default>; from dylanb@sympatico.ca on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 08:45:57AM -0500 References: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> Message-ID: <20000210100023.C12882@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 08:45:57AM -0500, John B (dylanb@sympatico.ca) wrote: > > I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. > That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic > residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?) > not to enter one. > > There are so many better ways to find old computers in much better condition > than something thrown into a dumpster with everything else piled on top. Yeah, but they're not as much fun :-) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 10 10:08:38 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> Message-ID: <200002101509.QAA16211@mail2.siemens.de> > >A coule of years ago we had two very tragic dumpster stories in Sweden, > >three kids vere killed while reading magazines in covered > >newspaper/magazine dumpsters. > >The kids had seaked in through the narrow opening where we dump our old > >newspapers/magazines and sat there while the truck came to pick up the > >dumpster content. The dumpster was automatically emptied into a compacter > >at the truck and all taken to the fragmentation site where the kids wer > >found crushed. > >The dumpster openings are now just about the size of a mail box. > I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. > That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic > residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?) > not to enter one. > There are so many better ways to find old computers in much better condition > than something thrown into a dumpster with everything else piled on top. Say, are you trying to reduce competition in your huntig grounds ? :)) H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From S.D.Birchall at pgr.salford.ac.uk Thu Feb 10 08:56:34 2000 From: S.D.Birchall at pgr.salford.ac.uk (S.D.Birchall@pgr.salford.ac.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> Message-ID: <20000210151640.17745.qmail@rhea.salford.ac.uk> Dumpsters are less common in the UK, though we do have "bins" and skips that can yield up interesting finds. Check out: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1893626075/o/qid=9501 95643/sr=8-1/103-0416203-0784633 The Art and Science of dumpster diving - a bit tongue in cheek, but some useful info nonetheless. From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Feb 10 09:12:46 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Dumpster tales from Kansas City Message-ID: I can't help when I drive down the street to stop and examine any computer stuff I find on the curb. My kids get kind of irritated waiting in a running car while I examine stuff.. Our lake community about every 3 years has a free drop-off for large trash. I have picked up more "good stuff" than my wife will let me keep. I usually volunteer so I can help unload and preselect any stuff before it goes in the truck sized bins. Best find was a Toshiba 21" TV with a broken power cord. Lots of old PS/2 and 286 machines and dot matrix printers. The Kansas City surplus place fills bins with the following. Bin #1 motherboards Bin #2 fingerboards Bin #3 power supplies Bin #4 cables I don't know where the documentation and media goes. All of the cases go into the metal scrap bin. I have almost cried when I find something really interesting as a case only in the metal scrap bin. Mike From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Feb 10 09:28:39 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000210072839.00944320@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 08:45 10-02-2000 -0500, you wrote: >I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. >That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic Foo. I'm at more risk crossing the street than I am digging through a dumpster. If I smell something odd, or see a patch of some unknown substance, I back off. It's that easy. I've been fortunate: Most of the dumpsters I've been able to plunder are nothing more than waist-high tub skids. >residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?) >not to enter one. What's the worse offense? Wasting perfectly usable hardware, and in doing so contributing to the pollution of the planet, or rescuing said hardware to continue performing useful work with it? While I agree that there may be legal issues present, they're not enough to keep me away if I think I have a chance to recover something usable. I've never heard of anyone getting arrested for diving, just chased off. In my mind, that's worth the risk if the target is worthwhile. Suggested DD survival gear: Sturdy coveralls, safety glasses with wrap-around side protection, safety shoes (steel toe) and a good pair of gloves. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Thu Feb 10 09:28:28 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <20000210151640.17745.qmail@rhea.salford.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:56:34 -0000 S.D.Birchall@pgr.salford.ac.uk wrote: > Dumpsters are less common in the UK, though we do have "bins" > and skips that can yield up interesting finds. I can report a recent find here at the Uni. I saw a grey cable in the nearby skip (dumpster) which turned out to be a PET IEEE-488 cable, standard connector at one end and special PET edge-connector at the other. And I have the PETs at home to connect it to! -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 10 09:52:50 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress In-Reply-To: <20000210040047.12782.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > I'd also be interested in knowing who's burning your prototype and how much > it runs you. I still have delusions of completing my 1802 SBC. If you do I'm doing a some day project for the 1802 as well... I want one that is more than the basic ELF design (approximating VIP only serial IO). Allison From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 9 09:54:37 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! References: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> Message-ID: <38A18DBD.6F2B1B54@rain.org> John B wrote: > > I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. > That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic > residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?) > not to enter one. > > There are so many better ways to find old computers in much better condition > than something thrown into a dumpster with everything else piled on top. Being alive all by itself is dangerous, so danger by itself is not a realistic way of measuring the value of something. If I had not gone dumpster diving a few years ago to recover a carload of Vector Graphic manuals, hardware, etc., it would have been gone. With the companies permission (and help!), I spent the morning and most of the afternoon checking out things. The value of having things like Vector marketing plans, price lists, hardware, and software manuals, at least to me, is great! Dumpster Diving is a standard practice at the TRW swap meet. The key to this whole thing is *the hunt* :)! From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Feb 10 10:25:13 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! Message-ID: <200002101624.KAA06959@falcon.inetnebr.com> >On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 08:45:57AM -0500, John B (dylanb@sympatico.ca) wrote: >> >> I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. >> That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic >> residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?) >> not to enter one. So... were you someone's mother in another lifetime? ;-) There are already enough laws that try to protect stupid people from themselves, while putting a real damper on those of us who have brains enough to safely engage in "hazardous" activities. Relax! A number of years ago, they filmed part of the movie "Amerika" (which was apparently about the USA being taken over by Soviets or something; I've never seen it). They had a big sale at the end of the movie, held inside the former location of a big K-mart store. People went nuts buying all the clothes and props from the movie. That night, we drove by and noticed that there was a *bunch* of stuff in the dumpsters out back. Upon further investigation, the alley was found to be blocked off with a semi trailer parked across each end. As we were in a Fiat X-1/9 at the time, that wasn't a problem; we just drove under the truck. Found a bunch of electronic odds and ends (props from the "communication van" driven by the "resistance fighters", so I'm told). Popped the removable hard top off the Fiat and started lobbing stuff in. Also found a couple of cool little Northern Telecom telephone terminals; 9" mono screens with membrane telephone keypads in front and a handset on the side, and a miniature QWERTY chicklet keyboard in a little draw that pulls out from underneath, and serial ports on the back. About the time the car was getting full, the police arrived at the near end of the alley, probably summoned by the night watchman. Since they hadn't told us to stop or anything, we just hopped in the car, drove down the alley, under the semi trailer at the far end, and off down the street. Bet they're still scratching their heads over that one. :-) Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 10 11:29:55 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000210122955.4497ee04@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:45 AM 2/10/00 -0500, John B.wrote: > > > > >I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. >That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic >residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?) >not to enter one. > >There are so many better ways to find old computers in much better condition >than something thrown into a dumpster with everything else piled on top. yeah, but none are as exciting as dumpster diving. You never know when there might be an Altair sitting under that next half a ton of wet card baord! Joe From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Feb 10 10:33:02 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <20000210151640.17745.qmail@rhea.salford.ac.uk> Message-ID: There was an article in Wired a couple (few) years ago about guys who did this professionally around the Toronto area (IIRC). They were making up to $200k per year diving! The article was interesting; the author went on some dives with them, talking about how they were actually spelunking in the large (20'-40' dumpsters). I remember some of the hauls were like 500 laptop batteries, 80 used toner cartridges, etc. One nights haul was in the tens of thousands... Never had that much luck myself. The best I've done is a working Xerox copier (with collating/stapling) that I resold for $100, and I once found a really nifty rolling toolbox, as used in auto mechanics' garages, with one drawer missing... On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 S.D.Birchall@pgr.salford.ac.uk wrote: > Dumpsters are less common in the UK, though we do have "bins" > and skips that can yield up interesting finds. > Check out: > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1893626075/o/qid=9501 > 95643/sr=8-1/103-0416203-0784633 > The Art and Science of dumpster diving - a bit tongue in cheek, but > some useful info nonetheless. > > > From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Thu Feb 10 11:33:26 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <57.1bc412e.25d3e5b9@aol.com> Message-ID: One night I found that I wasn't the only one dumpster diving behind an old building. A young woman had already staked her claim on a PET and an Altair 680. We talked as we looked through these 2 huge dumpsters and found that we both were '70's computer fanatics. When we were through, she looked at me, took off all her clothes, and said, "Big boy, you can take whatever you want from me." Her clothes would have never fit me, so I took the Altair. Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs bobstek@ix.netcom.com From jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu Thu Feb 10 11:40:15 2000 From: jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Items for possible trade Message-ID: <20000210124015.A7563@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Hello - Our department is telling me clean up. Some items that may be available soon are: hp 7550 plotter sun sparc 1, 2 (all are B&W, most of the monitors are dim) apple laserwriter II (some whole, some for parts) apple/radius large screen monitors (condition: unknown) calcomp 1039 plotters The apple and sun items have seen heavy use. I don't have room and I don't want to pitch them. I'd like to trade for single board computers or hp integal options/accessories/manuals or ??? Worest case, just offer shipping. john -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * * * * ************************************************************************ From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 10 12:01:08 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: References: <57.1bc412e.25d3e5b9@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000210120108.015a3270@pc> At 12:33 PM 2/10/00 -0500, Bob Stek wrote: >When we were through, she looked at >me, took off all her clothes, and said, "Big boy, you can take whatever you >want from me." Her clothes would have never fit me, so I took the Altair. Did you hear the one about the programmer who finds a talking frog? "If you kiss me, I'll turn into a beautiful princess," the frog pleads, but to no avail. "I don't have time for a girlfriend," the geek says, "but a talking frog is *cool*." - John From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 10 12:59:33 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Display phone? Re: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <200002101624.KAA06959@falcon.inetnebr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000210135933.48efda7e@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:25 AM 2/10/00 -0600, you wrote: Also found a couple of cool little Northern >Telecom telephone terminals; 9" mono screens with membrane telephone keypads >in front and a handset on the side, and a miniature QWERTY chicklet keyboard >in a little draw that pulls out from underneath, and serial ports on the >back. Bill, That sounds like a Northern Telcom Display phone. I've got two of them, they're pretty neat. Joe From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Feb 10 12:39:34 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress In-Reply-To: ; from allisonp@world.std.com on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 10:52:50AM -0500 References: <20000210040047.12782.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000210133934.A187@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 10:52:50AM -0500, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > If you do I'm doing a some day project for the 1802 as well... I want one > that is more than the basic ELF design (approximating VIP only serial IO). Geez I'd forgotten about the VIP, that was the blue plastic thing right? I think I saw it at a show in the early 80s alongside those nasty membrane ASCII keyboards that RCA used to sell. Anyway I've always wondered -- what is the ELF and who made it? I have a Quest Super Elf which I bought in kit form in 1981 (for $106.95, had to work half the summer to pay for it), I gather it was supposed to be a follow-on to the original Elf but I don't know anything about it. The I/O expansion was quite something -- there were a bunch of options on the main board, Quest sold little kits to stuff those parts (IIRC the option to drive a 20 mA TTY from the Q line was $1.95, they also had space for the 1861 video chip and even the 9368s for the address display on the control panel were optional), then there was one 44-pin edge connector, also a ribbon cable that went to the Super Expansion board (which I think I bought the next summer, $99.95 kit) which had 4 KB of SRAM and two (count 'em!) mostly-S100 slots. They had a 64 KB DRAM board for that (I think it was the only known S100 card that actually liked the 1802 timing) which I bought as a bare board, and tore my hair out endlessly getting that to work because I stuffed it with cheap surplus chips from Solid State Sales (which is what they used to call the basement of Eli Heffron's), some of which turned out to be bad. I started out with the $24.95 Quest particle-board/plexiglas case but it couldn't hold the S100 boards or the power supply, so I made my own case out of redwood on my dad's radial arm saw. I was really kinda proud of that, there are grooves for the edges of all the boards and the open frame PSU is nicely contained. So anyway I guess the ELF was an earlier 1802 board? And presumably not from Quest, right? John Wilson D Bit From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 10 12:48:10 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Ultrix 4 manuals avail. Message-ID: <20000210134810.C17060@alcor.concordia.ca> A coworker here has a set of Ultrix 4.0 manuals about to go to the recycling bin. If anyone wants 'em, let me know today, and I'll grab them. -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 10 12:50:04 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones Message-ID: <20000210135004.D17060@alcor.concordia.ca> Someone moments ago made a reference to old Nortel (well, Northern Telecom, back then) display phones, but I didn't realize what they were referring to until I'd deleted the message :-/ If those are the little black-paneled phones with CRTs and slide-out keyboard drawers, could you give me a model number? I've just realized that that'd make the perfect kitchen terminal, and might keep an eye out for them now, but it's awfully hard to search the 'net for 'nortel display phones' without getting bunches of current stuff. -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Thu Feb 10 12:58:08 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress In-Reply-To: <20000210133934.A187@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "Feb 10, 2000 01:39:34 pm" Message-ID: <20000210185821Z433610-18939+174@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > > So anyway I guess the ELF was an earlier 1802 board? And presumably not from > Quest, right? > I believe it was also from Quest. I have one at home (yes I built it from a kit too), if I remember when I get home I'll take a look at it, but I'm pretty sure is was Quest. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 10 12:53:06 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> from "John B" at Feb 10, 0 08:45:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1720 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000210/22d5dc2f/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Feb 10 13:10:44 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress Message-ID: <000210141044.25601116@trailing-edge.com> >Anyway I've always wondered -- what is the ELF and who made it? I have a >Quest Super Elf which I bought in kit form in 1981 (for $106.95, had to work >half the summer to pay for it), Netronics (or maybe it was NEtronics) sticks in my head. And I remember the "Cosmac ELF" being the name of at least one version. Gotta go dig out those old Popular Electronics... I swear every single issue from the late 70's had a Netronics ad. IIRC they also had some 8085 SBC's. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 10 12:35:26 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <41256881.003F8DF3.00@smtp02.seinf.abb.se> (thomas.h.lindberg@se.abb.com) References: <41256881.003F8DF3.00@smtp02.seinf.abb.se> Message-ID: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> thomas.h.lindberg@se.abb.com wrote: > A coule of years ago we had two very tragic dumpster stories in Sweden, > three kids vere killed while reading magazines in covered > newspaper/magazine dumpsters. I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that they hadn't been taught not to do such things. It's certainly the case that I've sometimes gone places that I know I'm not supposed to go, but I only do it if I'm pretty certain that I know what the risks are. And if I'm mistaken, I deserve whatever consequences I get. Here in the USA, all of the soda vending machines now have warnings labels advising people not to rock the machine, because some idiots managed to get themselves crushed under machines as they've tried (unsuccessfully) to sodas without paying. Personally I think the machines should *NOT* have the warning labels. And let's not even bother discussing the labels on products that say "no user-serviceable parts inside." :-) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Feb 10 13:34:08 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:56 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress In-Reply-To: <20000210133934.A187@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20000210040047.12782.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000210112508.03f8aca0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 01:39 PM 2/10/00 -0500, John Wilson wrote: >Anyway I've always wondered -- what is the ELF and who made it? I have a >Quest Super Elf which I bought in kit form in 1981 (for $106.95, had to work >half the summer to pay for it) ... [nice description of the Super Elf deleted] ... >So anyway I guess the ELF was an earlier 1802 board? And presumably not from >Quest, right? The original "Elf" was a design that was done in a two part article in Popular Electronics (IIRC) that was titled "Build this Elf Microcomputer for $99". Needless to say the idea that I could build one of these new fangled Microcomputers for $99 was a real thrill. So I bought the pre-etched circuit board that they offered in the back with the "basic chip set" and built it. With only 256 bytes of RAM it was sorely limited in what it could do, but not long after that article Quest started advertising "The Super Elf" which I scrounged up the cash for and bought as well. (since sold to another list member :-)) I even got the Super Elf enclosure and didn't extend it past the original expansion board. Then Neutronics(sp?) came out with their Elf kit and it had three or four S-100 type slots on the main board. My room mate got one of those (always had to have a computer _slightly_ nicer than mine :-) The really innovative thing about the Elf was that it was a CMOS part (in a land dominated by NMOS and PMOS chips) and the timing on the externally driven DMA cycle was such that you could build a front panel for it that would use the chip's DMA capability to DMA data into memory. This made the front panel trivial to build (and hence the $99 price tag). The worst thing about the Super Elf was that it used three of four diodes in series with the transformer in an attempt to drop the voltage enough that the 7805 wouldn't overheat trying to drop 12V and drive 500mA. --Chuck From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Feb 10 13:36:45 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > In the UK you have to get the permission of the owner of the > skip/dumpster to take stuff out. I've been lucky in that I've often been > allowed to do this. Uh...same thing here, but trolls abound. I've never been given permission to dig in anyone's trash; in fact, the mere mention of interest in someone else's refuse has frequently gotten me threats of what would happen if I went against their wishes. I no longer ask, I just wait for a moonless night, put on the black turtleneck, and take a little flashlight with me... Someone mentioned the "anything goes" trash night. We used to purposefully find interesting looking crap to put on the curb, then sit in lawn chairs and wait to see who stopped by. We met some really interesting, friendly people that way, and managed to barter for some cool stuff (I got an original Oddyssey that way). It's fun to watch "ordinary" people trolling around in stake-bed trucks loaded with all kinds of discarded treasures. Aaron From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Feb 10 13:43:04 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: When I was a whelp in Philadelphia, there was a rash of kids suffocating in old refrigerators during a big garbage strike one summer. Hide-and-seek was the usual motivation. This was back in the day when many refrigerators had latches/locks that could only be opened from the outside. I do remember there being at least 20 PSA's a day on TV (a lot, considering that we only got 2 1/2 channels) and special assemblies in school teaching us not to kill ourselves in abandoned appliances. You can tell kids all you want, but some are still going to play on the train tracks, in old refrigerators, in dumpsters... Aaron On 10 Feb 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > thomas.h.lindberg@se.abb.com wrote: > > A coule of years ago we had two very tragic dumpster stories in Sweden, > > three kids vere killed while reading magazines in covered > > newspaper/magazine dumpsters. > > I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, > but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that > they hadn't been taught not to do such things. > > It's certainly the case that I've sometimes gone places that I know I'm > not supposed to go, but I only do it if I'm pretty certain that I know > what the risks are. And if I'm mistaken, I deserve whatever consequences > I get. > > Here in the USA, all of the soda vending machines now have warnings labels > advising people not to rock the machine, because some idiots managed to get > themselves crushed under machines as they've tried (unsuccessfully) to > sodas without paying. Personally I think the machines should *NOT* have > the warning labels. > > And let's not even bother discussing the labels on products that say > "no user-serviceable parts inside." :-) > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 10 13:47:37 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Feb 10, 0 06:35:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 962 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000210/cf207b3c/attachment.ksh From west at tseinc.com Thu Feb 10 13:58:57 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: HP 2100 related manuals on ebay Message-ID: <008901bf7401$44926f60$d402a8c0@tse.com> Howdy folks... I found these manuals on ebay - I already have a copy of all of these, but I thought fellow HP 2100/2114/2115/2116 collectors might find them usefull. No bidders yet, 2 days left in the auction, and the asking price appears to be 14 bucks and some change... I only call it to everyones attention because they are not listed in a category on ebay that most of us would have likely found them... Jay West ------------- > Title of item: Early HP Computer Manuals > Seller: wogilvie@best.com > Starts: Feb-05-00 18:34:59 PST > Ends: Feb-12-00 18:34:59 PST > Price: Starts at $14.50 > To bid on the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=254393623 > > > Item Description: > Operating and service manuals for HP 2100 minicomputer peripherials - circa 1973 > 7900A Disc Drive - 1" thick, schematics, diagrams > 7035B X-Y Recorder - spiral bound, photos, schematics > 59301A ASCII to Parallel Converter - 40 pages > 12539C Time Base Generator Interface Kit - TBG board for 2100 > 12531C Buffered Teleprinter Interface Kit - PCB for 2100, 2114, 2115, 2116 > 13181A Digital Magnetic Tape Unit. Interface kit PCB for 2100 > Essential for preserving historic computers. > This auction is for these 6 manuals + 2 updates. No hardware is included. Winner > to pay shipping from 94043. Check my other auctions on eBay. From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Thu Feb 10 14:05:31 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: HP 2100 related manuals on ebay In-Reply-To: <008901bf7401$44926f60$d402a8c0@tse.com> from Jay West at "Feb 10, 2000 01:58:57 pm" Message-ID: <20000210200537Z433622-18937+181@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Howdy folks... > > I found these manuals on ebay - I already have a copy of all of these, but I > thought fellow HP 2100/2114/2115/2116 collectors might find them usefull. No > bidders yet, 2 days left in the auction, and the asking price appears to be > 14 bucks and some change... > > I only call it to everyones attention because they are not listed in a > category on ebay that most of us would have likely found them... > > Jay West Thanks, I hadn't noticed them. There are several manuals of interest to me. I've put a bid in, if anyone else on the list is interested, we could divide them up later, or I could make copies. > ------------- > > Title of item: Early HP Computer Manuals > > Seller: wogilvie@best.com > > Starts: Feb-05-00 18:34:59 PST > > Ends: Feb-12-00 18:34:59 PST > > Price: Starts at $14.50 > > To bid on the item, go to: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=254393623 > > > > > > Item Description: > > Operating and service manuals for HP 2100 minicomputer peripherials - > circa 1973 > > 7900A Disc Drive - 1" thick, schematics, diagrams > > 7035B X-Y Recorder - spiral bound, photos, schematics > > 59301A ASCII to Parallel Converter - 40 pages > > 12539C Time Base Generator Interface Kit - TBG board for 2100 > > 12531C Buffered Teleprinter Interface Kit - PCB for 2100, 2114, 2115, 2116 > > 13181A Digital Magnetic Tape Unit. Interface kit PCB for 2100 > > Essential for preserving historic computers. > > This auction is for these 6 manuals + 2 updates. No hardware is > included. Winner > > to pay shipping from 94043. Check my other auctions on eBay. > > -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 10 14:12:07 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress In-Reply-To: <20000210133934.A187@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > Geez I'd forgotten about the VIP, that was the blue plastic thing right? > I think I saw it at a show in the early 80s alongside those nasty membrane > ASCII keyboards that RCA used to sell. Some were an off blue and wome wer beige. > So anyway I guess the ELF was an earlier 1802 board? And presumably not from > Quest, right? The original ELF design was a summation of several RCA appnotes and an article in Popular Electonics ('78 I'd have to look.). Quest was a production version of the wirewrapped version. They were popular as they were cheap and pretty easy to work with. Later Quest, Netronics, and at least two other had similar SBCs that were expandable though not always compatable bus wise. It's an interesting cpu, nearly impossible to write optimized programs as it's addressing modes and register scheme were one of those if it fit it was small, if it didn't it got real ugly. Still it was interesting and it was CMOS. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 10 14:17:44 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress In-Reply-To: <000210141044.25601116@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Gotta go dig out those old Popular Electronics... I swear every single issue > from the late 70's had a Netronics ad. IIRC they also had some 8085 > SBC's. Netronics (in CT) I have an Explorer8085, comination of 8085 SBC (borrows on SDK85) and a S100 bus interface. Mine has all the mods including MSbasic in eprom plus a their s100 64k dynamic ram card(good design using 8203). Still works. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 10 14:24:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000210112508.03f8aca0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: > The really innovative thing about the Elf was that it was a CMOS part (in a > land dominated by NMOS and PMOS chips) and the timing on the externally > driven DMA cycle was such that you could build a front panel for it that > would use the chip's DMA capability to DMA data into memory. This made the > front panel trivial to build (and hence the $99 price tag). At that time the only hobbiest CMOS cpus were RCA CD1802 and the Intersil 6100 (PDP-8 on a chip). Around the same time sa the ELF article there was the (kilobaud) article on the 6100 (take a byte out of this) and it's SBC (intersil 6960) that was also very cheap. The advantage was the 6100 if the user built interfaces that were PDP-8 compatable you could run all of the DECUS pdp-8 software. The only requred interface for a 4k system was a TTY (asr33) and you could run FOCAL! Allison From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 10 15:01:06 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Ultrix 4 manuals avail. In-Reply-To: <20000210134810.C17060@alcor.concordia.ca>; from rich@alcor.concordia.ca on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 01:48:10PM -0500 References: <20000210134810.C17060@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <20000210160106.B1905@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 01:48:10PM -0500, Rich Lafferty (rich@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote: > A coworker here has a set of Ultrix 4.0 manuals about to go to the > recycling bin. If anyone wants 'em, let me know today, and I'll > grab them. The manuals are spoken for. (This list never fails to surprise me!) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 10 14:30:35 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: (message from Aaron Christopher Finney on Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:43:04 -0800 (PST)) References: Message-ID: <20000210203035.470.qmail@brouhaha.com> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > You can tell kids all you want, but some are still going to play on the > train tracks, in old refrigerators, in dumpsters... If they've actually been told not just to avoid such things, but also why (the potential dangers), and they still do it, I'm not going to shed very many tears for them. If they're too young to understand the danger, they need to be supervised. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Feb 10 14:53:28 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: References: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: >When I was a whelp in Philadelphia, there was a rash of kids suffocating >in old refrigerators during a big garbage strike one summer. Hide-and-seek >You can tell kids all you want, but some are still going to play on the >train tracks, in old refrigerators, in dumpsters... The only thing is this instance that seems to really work is to fine anyone the puts out a fridge without removing the door hinges. Children by definition cannot be expected to obey rules, regardless of the rule. From carons at techcare.com Thu Feb 10 15:40:55 2000 From: carons at techcare.com (Sean Caron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Microvax 3100 Model 30 in Kansas City Message-ID: <200002102140.PAA56532@opal.tseinc.com> > >Just came across a surplus MicroVax 3100 model 30. Anyone want it? >Mike >mmcfadden@cmh.edu >Computer surplus scrounger, bin diver, pallet mover, dust blower, classic >computer lover, non PC computer discoverer, lover of old but not forgotten >technology > > Hi! If it isn't spoken for and you don't mind shipping it (all charges on me, of course), I might be interested in it. Do you have an idea of what the system might contain in terms of memory expansion and hard drives (number and size of)? Thanks! - Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 10 15:50:03 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: 400 gig/in^2 punch card Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000210155003.015f98d0@pc> - John From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Feb 10 15:59:17 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000 References: <41256881.003F8DF3.00@smtp02.seinf.abb.se> <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000210165917.A763@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, > but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that > they hadn't been taught not to do such things. I agree... My parents covered all this stuff -- they told us not to dig inside snowbanks because a plow might come, we all wore seat belts way before there was a law (bicycle helmets too), our parents strictly enforced what we could and couldn't watch on TV so there was no need for V chips (I can't believe they're making us pay for censorship devices now just because some absentee parent religious freaks got upset), they never let us skate on the Charles at all, and we never had enough cash of our own to buy porn or cigarettes or anything else. These days parents teach their kids that *nothing* is their own responsibility, the whole world is supposed to be idiot-proofed for them. It's been a slow year here in upstate NY so far, usually by now the TV newscasts are peppered with people blowing each other away in hunting "accidents" (beer + bullets = ?), along with an equal number of geniuses who like to go snowmobiling at night on not-really-frozen lakes, optionally playing chicken with each other while they're at it (see, the goal is to crash and *then* drown). The reporters present these incidents as if they're tragedies but ya just gotta laugh, Darwin would be so proud. Yet people always want to find someone else to blame. John Wilson D Bit From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Feb 10 15:59:26 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones Message-ID: <200002102158.PAA26460@falcon.inetnebr.com> Next time I'm at the location where they're stored, I can try to find you a number. They're RS-232, but they're a bit funky to get to work with anything else; I don't remember the details, but it seems like they used really odd settings - like 6 bits, mark parity, 2 stop bits. Also, the attached phone only works with Northern Telecom phone systems, unless you were to gut the whole thing and stick the electronics from a one piece phone in them. What I've decided to do for terminals around the house (including the kitchen and bathroom) is to buy some old 486 laptops with color displays and PCMCIA slots. I've got PCMCIA ethernet cards for them, and am shopping for PCMCIA sound cards. My plan is to run Linux or FreeBSD on them, and X-windows, and let them surf the web as well as accessing our answering machine (which runs on our file server, and is already web-enabled), Mister House control console, and the CD jukebox control software. I'm going to *try* to set up either a Real Audio server or some kind of multicast audio server, and have a sound card in the server sampling and digitizing the output of the CD jukebox and the computer-controlled FM radio tuner, so you can "tune in" from any workstation in the place and listen to the radio or CDs. (Hey - I've gotta have *something* to keep me out of trouble!) >Someone moments ago made a reference to old Nortel (well, Northern >Telecom, back then) display phones, but I didn't realize what they >were referring to until I'd deleted the message :-/ > >If those are the little black-paneled phones with CRTs and slide-out >keyboard drawers, could you give me a model number? I've just realized >that that'd make the perfect kitchen terminal, and might keep an eye >out for them now, but it's awfully hard to search the 'net for >'nortel display phones' without getting bunches of current stuff. > > -Rich > >-- >------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- > Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services > Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 >------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- > > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Feb 10 16:02:12 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000210112508.03f8aca0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 11:34:08AM -0800 References: <20000210040047.12782.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> <20000210133934.A187@dbit.dbit.com> <4.1.20000210112508.03f8aca0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <20000210170212.B763@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 11:34:08AM -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: > The worst thing about the Super Elf was that it used three of four diodes > in series with the transformer in an attempt to drop the voltage enough > that the 7805 wouldn't overheat trying to drop 12V and drive 500mA. IIRC you're supposed to jumper some variable number of the diodes, depending on how much load there is (I think depending on whether you had installed the extra 9368s/FND503s (?) for the address display option). REALLY cheesy! And the 1802 ran at nowhere near its full speed, because evidently that's not possible with only a 5V supply. John Wilson D Bit From aek at spies.com Thu Feb 10 16:00:57 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: HP 2100 related manuals on ebay Message-ID: <200002102200.OAA32500@spies.com> "I found these manuals on ebay - I already have a copy of all of these, but I thought fellow HP 2100/2114/2115/2116 collectors might find them usefull." I've already scanned in these interface manuals, and am working through a big pile of others right now. From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 10 16:03:49 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones In-Reply-To: <200002102158.PAA26460@falcon.inetnebr.com>; from bill_r@inetnebr.com on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600 References: <200002102158.PAA26460@falcon.inetnebr.com> Message-ID: <20000210170349.A5717@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600, Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) wrote: > Next time I'm at the location where they're stored, I can try to find you a > number. They're RS-232, but they're a bit funky to get to work with > anything else; I don't remember the details, but it seems like they used > really odd settings - like 6 bits, mark parity, 2 stop bits. Also, the > attached phone only works with Northern Telecom phone systems, unless you > were to gut the whole thing and stick the electronics from a one piece phone > in them. Hm, this part's interesting -- while I'm sure there *were* models that were only PBX-aware, an old neighbour of mine used to work for Nortel and had one at home, so now I have to find out if they were produced in any quantity :-/ -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Feb 10 16:21:42 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <20000210165917.A763@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > > I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, > > but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that > > they hadn't been taught not to do such things. > > I agree... My parents covered all this stuff -- they told us not to dig inside > snowbanks because a plow might come, we all wore seat belts way before there > was a law (bicycle helmets too), our parents strictly enforced what we could Never a bicycle helmet, threw heavy rocks on the ice to see if it would break (then made the biggest kid go out there first), built forts in snowplow drifts, threw rocks at bees nests, climbed high trees, had B-B gun fights, etc. Had enough money to buy bottle rockets and firecrackers. Made lawn-chair pipe bombs with pyrodex. So did all of my friends. We're still alive, and each of us still have 10 fingers and two eyes apiece. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Feb 10 16:32:35 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: OT Responsibility Re: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: References: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000210142230.040a5f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 12:53 PM 2/10/00 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >The only thing is this instance that seems to really work is to fine anyone >the puts out a fridge without removing the door hinges. Children by >definition cannot be expected to obey rules, regardless of the rule. If you are the parent of a child who cannot "obey rules" especially ones that will kill them when violated then you must supervise that child. If you are unable to supervise them then you either train them or get someone else to supervise them. If you are unwilling to supervise them or get them supervised and they need it, then your children will die and I will feel sad for them but I will blame the parent. Attempting to make the world "bad parent" safe is not possible. --Chuck From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Thu Feb 10 16:41:45 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones In-Reply-To: <200002102158.PAA26460@falcon.inetnebr.com>; from Bill Richman on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600 References: <200002102158.PAA26460@falcon.inetnebr.com> Message-ID: <20000210154145.B28218@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600, Bill Richman wrote: > in them. What I've decided to do for terminals around the house (including > the kitchen and bathroom) is to buy some old 486 laptops with color displays > and PCMCIA slots. I've got PCMCIA ethernet cards for them, and am shopping > for PCMCIA sound cards. My plan is to run Linux or FreeBSD on them, and > X-windows, and let them surf the web as well as accessing our answering > machine (which runs on our file server, and is already web-enabled), Mister > House control console, and the CD jukebox control software. I'm going to > *try* to set up either a Real Audio server or some kind of multicast audio > server, and have a sound card in the server sampling and digitizing the > output of the CD jukebox and the computer-controlled FM radio tuner, so you > can "tune in" from any workstation in the place and listen to the radio or > CDs. (Hey - I've gotta have *something* to keep me out of trouble!) Sounds like great fun. Personally I'm hooked on touchscreens though. Haven't got it working yet because cheap deals on touchscreens always seem to come with caveats... I have some 386 mono-LCD tablet computers with them, but with only 2 megs RAM and 5 megs flash, which basically restricts them to DOS apps. And a couple of touchscreen CRTs for Macintoshes which work great, but can't be wall-mounted like the others and I also don't have a lot of suitable software for the Mac yet. I'm just going to end up having to write some software. I'm playing with the metawidgets concept (XML to describe what the GUI should consist of, and leave its rendering up to the client). More about that at http://cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com/~ecloud/journal/ For now on the Mac in the kitchen, I can use a touchscreen keyboard to do command line stuff via telnet to one of the Linux boxes, or I can run an old version of MacX to run X apps but that's ugly because it won't run full-screen. The menubar and titlebar waste a lot of space. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Feb 10 17:01:03 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! Message-ID: <200002102300.RAA25470@falcon.inetnebr.com> >>When I was a whelp in Philadelphia, there was a rash of kids suffocating >>in old refrigerators during a big garbage strike one summer. Hide-and-seek > >>You can tell kids all you want, but some are still going to play on the >>train tracks, in old refrigerators, in dumpsters... > >The only thing is this instance that seems to really work is to fine anyone >the puts out a fridge without removing the door hinges. Children by >definition cannot be expected to obey rules, regardless of the rule. > I dunno; it seems to me as though natural selection would take care of the problem better. Any kids dumb enough to get trapped inside a refrigerator don't reproduce, and therefore the defective self-preservation gene doesn't get passed on. Darwin would be proud! Beats the hell out of wrapping the whole world in padding and taking away everything that might possibly kill some moron. Historically, it's been things like rockets, guns, swingsets, mercury switches, fireplaces, and all the really good fireworks that The Establishment has deemed too dangerous for us unwashed masses to play with. Wonder how long until some loser chokes on a mouse ball or strangles himself with the cord while trying to plug in his new business card scanner and mice are required to come with warning labels? Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Feb 10 17:04:21 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: HP 2100 related manuals on ebay In-Reply-To: <200002102200.OAA32500@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000210150421.01650970@agora.rdrop.com> At 02:00 PM 2/10/00 -0800, you wrote: >"I found these manuals on ebay - I already have a copy of all of these, but I >thought fellow HP 2100/2114/2115/2116 collectors might find them usefull." > >I've already scanned in these interface manuals, and am working through >a big pile of others right now. > Anything on the 2117F? Online perhaps?? -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From edick at idcomm.com Thu Feb 10 17:11:59 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! Message-ID: <000901bf741e$fc900100$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, that's true, but it's through no action or inaction (I hesitate to say "fault") of you're own that you're all still in one piece. I'd agree that allowing the masses the freedom to kill or maim themselves or others is probably sound Darwin theory, the fact that people, despite their poor judgement are left to boast about having survived despite the cited obviously imprudent actions is adequate evidence that sound judgement isn't a requirement for survival. The fact that my two boys, neither of whom was either taught or allowed to engage in such actions are still around also serves to point that out. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 3:34 PM Subject: Re: Dumpster stories! > > >On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, John Wilson wrote: > >> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >> > I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, >> > but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that >> > they hadn't been taught not to do such things. >> >> I agree... My parents covered all this stuff -- they told us not to dig inside >> snowbanks because a plow might come, we all wore seat belts way before there >> was a law (bicycle helmets too), our parents strictly enforced what we could > >Never a bicycle helmet, threw heavy rocks on the ice to see if it would >break (then made the biggest kid go out there first), built forts in >snowplow drifts, threw rocks at bees nests, climbed high trees, had B-B >gun fights, etc. Had enough money to buy bottle rockets and firecrackers. >Made lawn-chair pipe bombs with pyrodex. So did all of my friends. > >We're still alive, and each of us still have 10 fingers and two eyes >apiece. > From spc at armigeron.com Thu Feb 10 17:40:42 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones In-Reply-To: <20000210154145.B28218@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at Feb 10, 2000 03:41:45 PM Message-ID: <200002102340.SAA30309@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Shawn T. Rutledge once stated: > > On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600, Bill Richman wrote: > > in them. What I've decided to do for terminals around the house (including > > the kitchen and bathroom) is to buy some old 486 laptops with color displays > > and PCMCIA slots. I've got PCMCIA ethernet cards for them, and am shopping > > for PCMCIA sound cards. My plan is to run Linux or FreeBSD on them, and > > X-windows, Be warned, while you can run Linux with 4M of RAM, installing Linux with 4M of RAM isn't easy. It took me the better part of a day to install Linux on a Toshiba T1900C with 4M RAM and 120M harddrive (a half-baked manual installtion of RedHat using Tom's Root/Doot disk and an existing RedHat system) and a 3Com modem/ethernet PCMCIA card (and it's currently hooked into the network at home). The RedHat install requires 16M of RAM. The oldest Slackware distribution I found (3.3) required 8M to do a floppy based install. Don't even attempt to run X if you have less than 16M and even then, you going to have to use an older window manager like twm or fvwm/fvwm2. If anyone is interested I can go into more details about how I installed Linux on the Toshiba (in total spent about three, four days trying to get *anything* installed on the box). > Sounds like great fun. Personally I'm hooked on touchscreens though. > Haven't got it working yet because cheap deals on touchscreens always seem > to come with caveats... At the Miami Ham fest earlier this month, I came across this one table where the guy was selling a prototype Linux PDA. IBM made these touch screen computers (basically they look like a thich LCD screen and are jet black) with a stylus. He slapped a 1G harddrive and installed Debian Linux on the thing. To Linux it looks like a standard PC, but it was a (I think) 33 MHz 486 with 8 or 16M RAM and a 1G drive. He wanted $250 for it. Tempting, but decided for the Sun 3/80 at another booth. -spc (The Toshiba has a BogoMIP rating of 9.96. Woo hoo!) From edick at idcomm.com Thu Feb 10 17:43:07 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: OT Responsibility Re: Dumpster stories! Message-ID: <000f01bf7420$95b97cc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Chuck, there are a few things you may have forgotten. By the time one has learned enough about parenting to be of use, it's too late for one's own children. I've seen exceptions occur, in cases where when the first "seating" has exited the scene, a second one is introduced. Those are the exception rather than the rule, however. Secondly, in an effort to make the nation's children safe from the few truly abusive parents that we have in our communities, society has rendered illegal the best and easiest-to-use tool, FEAR, sometimes best bundled with GUILT, which is the other of these two tools for childrearing. I had the harrowing experience of having a "counselor," and outsourced individual provided by a district subcontractor, tell one of my sons that my rather stern regimen of discipline was "too strict" and, thereby, validating his desire to disregard my direction. Within weeks the boy was skipping school, smoking, and not just tobacco, and who knows what else. His school work was already poor, so that didn't fall off much. It was a long hard couple of years getting him through high school and off to college. Does this shed any light? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 3:48 PM Subject: OT Responsibility Re: Dumpster stories! >At 12:53 PM 2/10/00 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >>The only thing is this instance that seems to really work is to fine anyone >>the puts out a fridge without removing the door hinges. Children by >>definition cannot be expected to obey rules, regardless of the rule. > >If you are the parent of a child who cannot "obey rules" especially ones >that will kill them when violated then you must supervise that child. If >you are unable to supervise them then you either train them or get someone >else to supervise them. If you are unwilling to supervise them or get them >supervised and they need it, then your children will die and I will feel >sad for them but I will blame the parent. > >Attempting to make the world "bad parent" safe is not possible. > >--Chuck > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Feb 10 18:31:20 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones Message-ID: <20000211003120.5798.qmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Shawn T. Rutledge once stated: > > > > On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600, Bill Richman wrote: > > > in them. What I've decided to do for terminals around the house > > > is to buy some old 486 laptops with color displays > > > and PCMCIA slots. I have had a similar idea, but for $200, I found a surplussed 486DX4 with 16Mb, a 540Mb disk, two PCMCIA, one ISA, all built into a wall-mountable case with the LCD on the front. There is also an external floppy and an IDE connector (once I've sussed out, the other I've passed on due to the connector). It's ripe for Linux hacking, kinda like a laptop without the battery or keyboard. > Be warned, while you can run Linux with 4M of RAM, installing Linux with > 4M of RAM isn't easy. True. It's also possible to fit ancient Linux distributions onto 40Mb of disk, but my record is 80Mb. > The RedHat install requires 16M of RAM. Ask me if I run RedHat. :-) > The oldest Slackware distribution > I found (3.3) required 8M to do a floppy based install. That sounds about right. > Don't even attempt > to run X if you have less than 16M and even then, you going to have to use > an older window manager like twm or fvwm/fvwm2. Unless you _like_ to swap like mad. I've been playing with Floppy-based Linux boxes, primarily derived from the Linux Router Project. My smallest achievement is a 486SLC board w/8Mb, a multi-I/O card (for parallel), a NIC, no video and a Connectix QuickCam. After the kernel loads, the one script snaps a picture, converts it to a jpeg and ftps it to a spot on my web page. No hard disk. I even found a case the size of an encyclopaedia, thus no room for the video card. Total investment, $25 plus the cost of the camera. I've been thinking of a similar thing for the wall-mount 486: boot from floppy (or flash - I have an IDE adapter for an ATA card) and use networked storage. I could use the internal hard disk, but I want an appliance that I can turn on and off without worrying about filesystem corruption. Anyway... massively off-topic, but fun. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 10 19:28:12 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones In-Reply-To: <20000210135004.D17060@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000210202812.47f79c7e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Rich, I made a reference to them in response to someone's dumpster story. I have two of them, a Display Phone and a Display Phone Plus, but there's not at this location so I can't give you the model numbers right now. I'll try to remember to look them up but remind me if I forget. FWIW I bought my second Display phone from E-bay. I searched for Display phone and found it. I was the only bidder and got it for about $20. shipping cost was another $15 of so. Joe At 01:50 PM 2/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >Someone moments ago made a reference to old Nortel (well, Northern >Telecom, back then) display phones, but I didn't realize what they >were referring to until I'd deleted the message :-/ > >If those are the little black-paneled phones with CRTs and slide-out >keyboard drawers, could you give me a model number? I've just realized >that that'd make the perfect kitchen terminal, and might keep an eye >out for them now, but it's awfully hard to search the 'net for >'nortel display phones' without getting bunches of current stuff. > > -Rich > >-- >------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- > Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services > Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 >------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- > > From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 9 19:04:56 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! References: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <38A20EB8.E26A0662@rain.org> Mike Ford wrote: > > >When I was a whelp in Philadelphia, there was a rash of kids suffocating > >in old refrigerators during a big garbage strike one summer. Hide-and-seek > > >You can tell kids all you want, but some are still going to play on the > >train tracks, in old refrigerators, in dumpsters... > > The only thing is this instance that seems to really work is to fine anyone > the puts out a fridge without removing the door hinges. Children by > definition cannot be expected to obey rules, regardless of the rule. And therein lies the problem. Some people remain children from birth to death regardless of the number of years. At some point, people need to take responsibility for their own actions rather than add to the burden society seems all too willing to take on and carry. From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 9 19:12:30 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! References: <000901bf741e$fc900100$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <38A2107E.9681FB5A@rain.org> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I'd agree that allowing the masses the freedom to kill or maim themselves or > others is probably sound Darwin theory, the fact that people, despite their > poor judgement are left to boast about having survived despite the cited > obviously imprudent actions is adequate evidence that sound judgement isn't > a requirement for survival. The fact that my two boys, neither of whom was Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement (or more likely a lack on knowledge.) The whole thing here centers around respect. I neither worship nor fear guns, but I am respectful. We have probably all done things that would be considered Darwin material, but that does not make the experience any less valuable. Anyway, enough OT stuff for now, fun as it is. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 10 20:18:08 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones In-Reply-To: <200002102158.PAA26460@falcon.inetnebr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000210211808.47f730ee@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 03:59 PM 2/10/00 -0600, Bill R. wrote: >Next time I'm at the location where they're stored, I can try to find you a >number. They're RS-232, but they're a bit funky to get to work with >anything else; I don't remember the details, but it seems like they used >really odd settings - like 6 bits, mark parity, 2 stop bits. Also, the >attached phone only works with Northern Telecom phone systems, Hmmm. Both of mine are presently working on the regular phone system. I just plugged them in and they worked. There is a setup screen in mine that lets you define all the RS-232 parameters. At least one of mine has two RS-232 ports. One for a printer and the other to connect to a computer. Joe From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Feb 10 18:23:31 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <008501bf7426$3a3e3d80$292ad1d8@default> Like trying to find a needle in a haystack..... Would anyone know which handbook/manual the RX01 bootstrap loader is in? I need to toggle in the RX01 bootstrap into a PDP-11/20 with 4K config. If the bootstrap code is too long would anyone know if DEC distributed a RX01 bootstrap paper tape version? john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From stan at netcom.com Thu Feb 10 19:34:21 2000 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: HP 9831A questions References: <3.0.3.32.20000210150421.01650970@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <38A3671D.9F7CDAAF@netcom.com> Hello all, I have a few questions about the HP 9831A BASIC language desktop computer: 1) Did it use the same plug in interface cards as the HP 9825 series? 2) What sort of plug-in ROM cartridges or other options were available for it? 2a) What would happen if you plugged in an HP 9825 series ROM? 3) How long were they produced? I found them listed only in my 1978 HP catalog. Thanks! Stan From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Feb 10 19:55:57 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <000210205557.256011b7@trailing-edge.com> >Like trying to find a needle in a haystack..... Not all *that* hard! >Would anyone know which handbook/manual the RX01 bootstrap loader is in? The RT-11 Installation manual is one place, the RX11 manual is another, any of the "Microcomputer Interfaces" books that has the RXV11, ... >I need to toggle in the RX01 bootstrap into a PDP-11/20 with 4K config. You could just, say, go to ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/bootstraps/ and fetch "rx01_boot.txt". What are you going to try to boot in just 4K, BTW? I'm scratching my head to figure out if even RT-11 V2 fit in that small a space... -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rcini at msn.com Thu Feb 10 19:43:59 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress Message-ID: <006001bf7434$66f95180$6464a8c0@office1> On Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:00:47 -0800 (PST), Ethan Dicks wrote >>With all the recent discussion, I'd like to know what you are using for >>layout software. On my web site, I have a paragraph or two about the EDWin NC package that I'm using. In short, it has everything but the kitchen sink, but is not terribly well integrated and requires too many mouse clicks to get simple tasks done. To be fair, though, my speed seems to be improving with each day that I use it. > Anyway, what I'm going to do is make DXF pictures out of them and post > them to my site for all to see. Comments will be welcomed. >>Cool. I may do it in PDFs instead or in addition to the DXFs. EDWin has a lame printing system, so I'll have to see which one produces the best results. > Once the design is finalized, I'll have a prototype board made so that I > can see if it works. >> >>I'd also be interested in knowing who's burning your prototype and how much >>it runs you. I still have delusions of completing my 1802 SBC. No problem. I'll probably pick someone out of Nuts & Volts or Circuit Cellar. Rich [ Rich Cini [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> ? From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 10 20:17:50 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress Message-ID: <200002110217.VAA02405@world.std.com> References: <200002102158.PAA26460@falcon.inetnebr.com> <200002102158.PAA26460@falcon.inetnebr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000210225913.007eb4d0@pop.mindspring.com> Howdy, At 05:03 PM 2/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600, Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) wrote: >> Next time I'm at the location where they're stored, I can try to find you a >> number. They're RS-232, but they're a bit funky to get to work with >> anything else; I don't remember the details, but it seems like they used >> really odd settings - like 6 bits, mark parity, 2 stop bits. Also, the >> attached phone only works with Northern Telecom phone systems, unless you >> were to gut the whole thing and stick the electronics from a one piece phone >> in them. > >Hm, this part's interesting -- while I'm sure there *were* models that >were only PBX-aware, an old neighbour of mine used to work for Nortel >and had one at home, so now I have to find out if they were produced >in any quantity :-/ Well, I still work at Nortel (in hardware design, for 15+ years), and had no idea that _anybody_ would ever be interested in the Displayphones. Geez, we musta thrown out gobs & gobs of those things years ago (yeah, yeah, how were we to know ...). Now, I didn't work on the Displayphone hardware myself (my group designs the DMS-100 digital switching system and it's successors) but I know that at one time in the mid-late 80s there was quite a wide deployment of them within Nortel for people to use to dial into the mainframe computer. A lot of folks had them at their desks and quite a few took them home. I think they had 300 bps modems built in. As I recall, there were at least two different models, the early model looked much like a miniature Hazeltine terminal, the later model had the CRT display up on a stalk. I also recall that it must have been very difficult or impossible to do lower case on those things - you could always tell who was writing their e-mails on a Displayphone because everything they sent was in upper case only. You could program in a list of names and phone numbers and have it autodial the numbers. The models I saw used all hooked into a standard POTS line. I do not recall a model that required what we call a "P-Phone" (PBX-type) line, but I can't say for sure that one wasn't made - all the ones I saw were POTS. I also thought that it was possible to set things like the data rate/parity/stop bits for the external RS-232 ports through a set up menu. A buddy at work used one at his desk until it died recently, I thought it was amusing that when hisphone rang, the CRT on the Displayphone lit up with a message "Excuse me, you have a call" or something like that. It's been a long time since these things were a supported product, so I doubt seriously I can get my hands on any docs., but will keep my eyes open around work. Alex Knight Calculator History & Technology Museum Web Page http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Feb 10 22:13:59 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Old RSTS-11 Freeware library now online Message-ID: <000210231359.25601386@trailing-edge.com> With the help of many fellow archivists, I've pieced together the first hundred or so DECUS RSTS-11 library entries to form a neat web-accessible archive. These RSTS-11 library entries date from the early to mid 1970's, and were originally distributed by DECUS on punched tape and DECTape. Perhaps the most recognizable of the entries are RSTS-11-13 and RSTS-11-14, collections of Basic programs from David Ahl that became the basis of the famous _101 Basic Computer Games_. Here you get to see the source code in its original RSTS-11 Basic form, from an era before Bill Gates and company began writing their first Basic interpreter. These RSTS-11 archives are available over the web at http://pdp-11.trailing-edge.com/rsts11/ As I sort the thousands of megabytes of RT-11, RSX-11, RSTS/E, and other PDP-11 related material I've got in the collection and index it, I'll announce progress in these newsgroups. If you're interested in joining in with the effort, hearing about works in progress, or making your opinion about the web indices known, you're welcome to join the "pdp-archives" mailing list. Subscribe over the web by visiting http://mudd.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/pdp-archives Enjoy! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing-Edge WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Feb 10 21:52:09 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! References: <41256881.003F8DF3.00@smtp02.seinf.abb.se> <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000210165917.A763@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <021a01bf7448$2f685fe0$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 8:29 AM Subject: Re: Dumpster stories! One of the big auction houses that handle a LOT of ex-govt stuff in Adelaide S.A. is Evans & Clarke. After their computer/office eqpt auctions, they ENCOURAGE people to take stuff from the dumpsters they provide for patrons to ditch stuff they don't want out of a batch. (sometimes you buy a pallet of cruft to get a single item you really want, usually for minimal money) I got a Webster Multiport to let my Macs talk to my Netware server and the internet because it was in a batch of junk that went for $5 along with a printer that was all the buyer really wanted. (He gave me the Multiport - he didn't know what it was and had no use for it when I told him) I got a big shock when I found it was worth serious money. E&C have no problem with people snatching whatever they like out of the dumpsters afterwards, as they are paying money to get it taken to a landfill/scrapper otherwise. Sensible. I have some monitors (Sampo 19" hires mono) that the Multiport guy saw them in the bin, asked E&C if he could take one, and was told to go for it and take all he wanted. So he grabbed half a dozen, and I wound up with a few. The big lead smelter here are a bit tougher, you need a business name, (I have one) and you needed a s/h dealers license (until the govt scrapped them) and have to go through their salvage section to find stuff you want. But you can get it very cheap, I picked up some useful DEC stuff that way. (my first Vaxen - a 6310/8530 HSC based cluster came from this mob) > The reporters present these incidents as > if they're tragedies but ya just gotta laugh, Darwin would be so proud. > Yet people always want to find someone else to blame. (One of) Heinleins Laws :- Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. Verbum Sap. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 10 23:16:47 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: HP 9831A questions In-Reply-To: <38A3671D.9F7CDAAF@netcom.com> References: <3.0.3.32.20000210150421.01650970@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000211001647.3b571a4c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Stan, Why? Are you thinking of bidding on the one on E-bay? I was interested in it but I was waiting for the price to come down. It's been posted there about three times. At 05:34 PM 2/10/00 -0800, you wrote: >Hello all, > >I have a few questions about the HP 9831A BASIC language desktop >computer: > >1) Did it use the same plug in interface cards as the HP 9825 series? From what I've been told it should but it had most of the ROMs built in. > >2) What sort of plug-in ROM cartridges or other options were available >for it? None that I know of. There are no ROMs specificly for it in the '78 catalog. That was the only catalog that listed the 9831. It *may* use standard ROMs but I don't think it needed any. > >2a) What would happen if you plugged in an HP 9825 series ROM? I don't know but I can give you Steve Leibson's address and you can ask him. You do know who he is don't you? From what I was told, you cold plug in the 9825 system ROM drawer and it would become a 9825! > >3) How long were they produced? I found them listed only in my 1978 HP >catalog. That year only AFIK. I have a 9831 but I've never looked at the date code on it. The one on E-bay is only the second one that I've ever heard of. Take a look at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/9800.htm". You might find it interesting. Joe > >Thanks! >Stan > From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Thu Feb 10 22:42:12 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones In-Reply-To: <200002102340.SAA30309@armigeron.com>; from Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:40:42PM -0500 References: <20000210154145.B28218@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <200002102340.SAA30309@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <20000210214212.B29331@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:40:42PM -0500, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Shawn T. Rutledge once stated: > > > > On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600, Bill Richman wrote: > > > in them. What I've decided to do for terminals around the house (including > > > the kitchen and bathroom) is to buy some old 486 laptops with color displays > > > and PCMCIA slots. I've got PCMCIA ethernet cards for them, and am shopping > > > for PCMCIA sound cards. My plan is to run Linux or FreeBSD on them, and > > > X-windows, > > Be warned, while you can run Linux with 4M of RAM, installing Linux with > 4M of RAM isn't easy. It took me the better part of a day to install Linux > on a Toshiba T1900C with 4M RAM and 120M harddrive (a half-baked manual > installtion of RedHat using Tom's Root/Doot disk and an existing RedHat > system) and a 3Com modem/ethernet PCMCIA card (and it's currently hooked > into the network at home). > > The RedHat install requires 16M of RAM. The oldest Slackware distribution > I found (3.3) required 8M to do a floppy based install. Don't even attempt > to run X if you have less than 16M and even then, you going to have to use > an older window manager like twm or fvwm/fvwm2. Yeah if I was going to try to make do with 4 megs I'd try to cook up a customized distro using some older code. TinyX can run in 4 megs in theory but the web page warns that you may not be able to run more than 1 app at a time. :-) But running all apps from a remote server should help. I think with 8 megs you could run just about anything you want remotely. TomsRTBT has some really small utils too. Whole collections of utilities are implemented as symlinks to a single executable, and the executable looks at the command line to figure out which utility to run. There's a similar package listed at freshmeat called "busybox" but I'm not sure if that's what Toms uses. libc5 and a.out are also a good thing in a small amount of memory especially if there aren't going to be a lot of processes running at once (elf has overhead but saves memory if the same lib is linked to multiple executables that are running at once). Somewhere I have a slackware so old that it uses a 1.0 series kernel. It has light memory requirements but nothing I could do would make it work in 2 megs of RAM like I wanted to do with those 386's. The kernel would load but there wasn't enough memory left to run init. :-) An idea I bounced off one of the mailing lists was what if code could run in-place directly off the "hard drive" (FLASH in my case) without having to be loaded in memory first. But AFAIK noone has done this yet. My guess is it would involve modifying the loader (in the kernel or in libc? Not sure which) to instead do an mmap and return a pointer to that space. But I gave up thinking about it and resigned myself to make do with DOS and build a custom lightweight GUI framework. At least the metawidgets concept is very portable, moreso than X even. > > If anyone is interested I can go into more details about how I installed > Linux on the Toshiba (in total spent about three, four days trying to get > *anything* installed on the box). FWIW my first Linux box was a 386 with 5 megs. So slackware really did used to run in that just fine. I was using a 1.2 series kernel then. > > > Sounds like great fun. Personally I'm hooked on touchscreens though. > > Haven't got it working yet because cheap deals on touchscreens always seem > > to come with caveats... > > At the Miami Ham fest earlier this month, I came across this one table > where the guy was selling a prototype Linux PDA. IBM made these touch > screen computers (basically they look like a thich LCD screen and are jet > black) with a stylus. He slapped a 1G harddrive and installed Debian Linux > on the thing. To Linux it looks like a standard PC, but it was a (I think) > 33 MHz 486 with 8 or 16M RAM and a 1G drive. He wanted $250 for it. > Tempting, but decided for the Sun 3/80 at another booth. Neato. I'd have the equivalent with my 730T if there were such a thing as a gigabyte PCMCIA type III hard drive. Biggest I've seen is 540 megs, and on ebay they are really expensive. BTW anybody got any PCMCIA drives for sale of any size? Well I'll start another thread about that... -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From mrbelles at pittstate.edu Fri Feb 11 00:46:22 2000 From: mrbelles at pittstate.edu (Mark Belles) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! References: <000901bf741e$fc900100$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <38A3B03E.2DB61EC2@pittstate.edu> Ya know, as I sit back and recall some of the stupidity that I've come across all these years, and after carefully analyzing the actions by our brainless-brethren, I have come to the conclusion that I like stupid people. No really, think about this. Why else do we have the new? Is it not just to inform us of the ridiculous crap people have done that day. You've all seen it. Famous athlete signs 48 million 8 year contract...also picked up for swiping a pair of $ 120 Nike's at the local athletic store. Or as someone already mentioned...2 teenage vandals were crushed early this morning outside of Billy Bob's Git-N-Go when a foiled attempt at free beverages went wrong. The Soda dispensing machine was accidentally tipped on the to young men as the attempted to gently sway the cola out of the machine. Or how bout the one where the kids hopped off of a 200 foot tall bridge into 8 inches of water....hey did you ever think of checking out the old landing zone first? Oh wait...my other favorite, what about the guy who was working on fuel pump of his 1970 Plymouth that blew his right arm off and maimed the family cat...technical reports indicated he was smoking at the time of the incident. :) Ok...or how bout the drunken fishing accident where the guys got trashed and somehow drove off of a 300 foot tall dam at 45 mph. OMG Where are all these fools coming from. My point is that we should be thankful we have our comical, brainless, incapable of reading the manual, didn't see the sign, wasn't looking, fell asleep while tilling the garden, accidentally blew away the dog while cleaning my pistol, or just wanted to get more umphhh out of the family vacum cleaner so I bent the prongs and plugged it into the 220 line ( right before the fire department showed up), forgot how they opened up Netscape 3 seconds ago and now can't remember if it's a Macintosh or Hewlitt Packard even tho there is an Apple on damn thing, common-sense deprived cohorts. Hell, if I didn't get to laugh my ass off every night because some asshole drove his car through the front lobby of the local burger joint, I might just have to go and do some stupid stuff myself. There is no end to the stupidity, and no amount of warnings, labels, locks, chains, security, or advisories are capable of stopping those prone to accidents. I've been warned of every possible harmful thing on the planet by my mom (bless her heart), but if I didn't think first it would do absolutely no good. Just the other day I even notice a "warning" label inside the drivers side sun visor in my 98 Mustang...it read...please face the child restraint seat so that it is facing the rear of the vehicle. It even had a picture which clearly showed the seat in the correct position with a damn steering wheel about six inches in front of it. If there is someone dumb enough to load a child seat into that side of the vehicle...that kid was better off anyways. I wonder, the guy who decided to label that there,,,is he the one that put the Brail dots on the drive-up ATM's? My point...if you aren't lame or dead yet,,,keep diving...if you get hurt....I'll laugh my ass off at ya, but I won't stop ya. mark. Richard Erlacher wrote: > Yes, that's true, but it's through no action or inaction (I hesitate to say > "fault") of you're own that you're all still in one piece. > > I'd agree that allowing the masses the freedom to kill or maim themselves or > others is probably sound Darwin theory, the fact that people, despite their > poor judgement are left to boast about having survived despite the cited > obviously imprudent actions is adequate evidence that sound judgement isn't > a requirement for survival. The fact that my two boys, neither of whom was > either taught or allowed to engage in such actions are still around also > serves to point that out. > > Dick > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron Christopher Finney > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 3:34 PM > Subject: Re: Dumpster stories! > > > > > > >On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, John Wilson wrote: > > > >> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > >> > I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, > >> > but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that > >> > they hadn't been taught not to do such things. > >> > >> I agree... My parents covered all this stuff -- they told us not to dig > inside > >> snowbanks because a plow might come, we all wore seat belts way before > there > >> was a law (bicycle helmets too), our parents strictly enforced what we > could > > > >Never a bicycle helmet, threw heavy rocks on the ice to see if it would > >break (then made the biggest kid go out there first), built forts in > >snowplow drifts, threw rocks at bees nests, climbed high trees, had B-B > >gun fights, etc. Had enough money to buy bottle rockets and firecrackers. > >Made lawn-chair pipe bombs with pyrodex. So did all of my friends. > > > >We're still alive, and each of us still have 10 fingers and two eyes > >apiece. > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Feb 10 22:59:09 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Running a TK50 "on the bench" Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000210205703.0214f6d0@mcmanis.com> I have a TK-50 with a tape stuck in it, it is malfunking :-) I thought I would put it on my workbench and power it up but that doesn't seem to leave it with enough smarts to load and eject tapes. Do I have to hook a TQK50 to it? (I suppose I could bolt a bit of Qbus to a board with power but I'd rather not if I don't have to.) Is there a jumper/testpoint I can change to put it into "local loop" mode? --Chuck From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Thu Feb 10 23:09:56 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: (SOT) IBM 730T and PCMCIA hard drives Message-ID: <20000210220955.C29331@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> (somewhat off topic... only 5 or 6 years old and a PC at that :-) Well as I mentioned in that screenphone thread I bought an IBM 730T. There are lots of them on ebay right now at prices which make me wish I'd not bought that ill-fated DTR-1. This is a tablet type pen-based computer which has 8 megs RAM built-in, 3 PCMCIA slots and 1 RAM card slot which collectively take up the space of 2 type-III slots. So if you put in a hard drive you have 1 type-II slot and 1 RAM slot free. (I don't know if the RAM slot is what is known as type-I, but the pins are arranged differently and it takes a DRAM card... I'm hoping those cards are interchangeable regardless of manufacturer but I'm not sure. IBM intended a 4 or 8 meg card to go in there.) When you turn it on, there is no BIOS setup screen that I have found, it just immediately proceeds to load DOS off the 105 meg hard drive that came with it. Mine came with nothing other than command.com loaded on it so I have no way of putting other software on right now. Floppies for them are rare and expensive. I tried borrowing a coworker's laptop last night to transfer software to the hard drive, but I couldn't make it show up in any of WinNT, FreeDOS or Linux. So I will have to either buy a floppy or a PCMCIA card drive for a desktop PC I guess. I want to try and put Linux on it and get X working with the pen. So if any of you have any of the following for sale or trade: PCMCIA hard drive with more of DOS installed so I can use intersvr at least or Linux a clever substitute for that PCMCIA slot for a PC floppy for the 730T other ideas on how I can try to install Linux ... let me know. I have quite a significant pile of junk^H^H^H^Htrading stock. Hmmm, matter of fact I think I'm going to go add a list of stuff to my home page right now because it's accumulating fast and I need to start losing some. I don't know even if I get Linux onto it, if the fact that DOS boots without any card services being installed, implies that Linux will also see the hard drive as an ordinary one or if I'm going to have to build a kernel that has the PCMCIA support compiled in rather than as modules. I'm beginning to wonder if the hard drive itself is special. Since there is no BIOS setup could I get it to boot from a different sized drive... and maybe also this accounts for why the hard drive didn't look normal to the other OS's. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Feb 10 22:08:14 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> Message-ID: >I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. If you never dumpster dive, you will never find one of the really big rats to keep as a pet. What I love is when a dumpster prude walks by at a public place like the end of a hamfest, and gives me the how could you look, then like three other divers show up and we carry away all we can hold while the person is still shaking their head. A prude is a person who doesn't do something they at least have some interest in for reasons that examined coldly hold little water. All I know for sure is that it suits me, and doesn't suit others. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Feb 10 23:55:49 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: OT Responsibility Re: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000210142230.040a5f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: >Attempting to make the world "bad parent" safe is not possible. Neither is expecting all parents to be perfect all the time. Children are precious enough to do all that we practically can though. One of the newsgroups on software for kids I used to follow had a frequent poster with a tribute to their lost child as a .sig file, and it used to tear me up reading that. From mbg at world.std.com Fri Feb 11 00:45:50 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: OT Responsibility Re: Dumpster stories! References: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200002110645.BAA00546@world.std.com> Even though one can't legislate against stupidity, people still try... Years ago, some guy walked through the spinning tail rotor of a helicopter (well, walked part way through :-) His family sued the manufacturer because it wasn't posted that this was dangerous... ...come on... just another case of someone unwilling to take proper responsibility for their actions... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ p.s. "Think of it as evolution in action." :-) From mrbelles at pittstate.edu Fri Feb 11 04:53:19 2000 From: mrbelles at pittstate.edu (Mark Belles) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! References: <000901bf741e$fc900100$0400c0a8@winbook> <38A3B03E.2DB61EC2@pittstate.edu> Message-ID: <38A3EA1F.39607B78@pittstate.edu> And on another note: To all those who find it foolish to rumage through *dumpsters* looking for golden nuggets of historical components or interesting stuff. You must also take into account that 90% of the people dumping these types of things are the same people that after a full year of internet venturing still have no idea what URL means, how to manually enter a web address/URL, or are act like you are genius that you *a local help desk phone jockey* knew that their internet browser had a *stop* button! Half of the planet just goes about their meager exsistence without so much as one clue of the world around them. So when you *anti-dumpster-divers* flame all the rest, ask yourself, what have I tossed today? Would anyone else find that old stinky document or manual you couldn't figure out interesting? Or maybe the bosses old computer that no one on your floor could run? Most people assume that things are useless if 1) they can't understand it, obviously no one else can either 2) they can't operate it on 3rd grade level, so it must be broken 3) that just because it is old, or not as popular as something else, then it should be tossed! Hey if I spotted someone tossing out a computer that they claimed *didn't* work right, I would probably assume them to ignorant(from them not donating it, or recycling the parts) and attempt to retrieve it. IMHO information is power. How you obtain the info is irrelevant. Some people are just to clueless to spot a diamond in the rough if it got stuck on the bottom of their shoe! Reading *old* dumpster literature is just the same principle as going to the local library, except sometimes the hours are diferent...lol! So to all those who find it foolish to revist old data and hardware, blah blah yada! You fools, what is dirt to some is gold to others! Mark. Mark Belles wrote: > My point...if you aren't lame or dead > yet,,,keep diving...if you get hurt....I'll laugh my ass off at ya, but I won't > stop ya. > mark. > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Yes, that's true, but it's through no action or inaction (I hesitate to say > > "fault") of you're own that you're all still in one piece. > > >We're still alive, and each of us still have 10 fingers and two eyes > > >apiece. > > > From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Fri Feb 11 02:56:13 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:57 2005 Subject: My trade list Message-ID: <20000211015613.D29331@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> ... is up at http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud/trading-stock.html -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Feb 11 06:45:56 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <200002102300.RAA25470@falcon.inetnebr.com> Message-ID: <200002111146.MAA08032@mail2.siemens.de> > >>When I was a whelp in Philadelphia, there was a rash of kids suffocating > >>in old refrigerators during a big garbage strike one summer. Hide-and-seek > >>You can tell kids all you want, but some are still going to play on the > >>train tracks, in old refrigerators, in dumpsters... > >The only thing is this instance that seems to really work is to fine anyone > >the puts out a fridge without removing the door hinges. Children by > >definition cannot be expected to obey rules, regardless of the rule. > I dunno; it seems to me as though natural selection would take care of the > problem better. Any kids dumb enough to get trapped inside a refrigerator > don't reproduce, and therefore the defective self-preservation gene doesn't > get passed on. Darwin would be proud! I duno - The darwin part isn't completly wrong, just we're talking about social evolution - the genes are way to slow to catch up with the concept of a door (not to speak about a fridge) - BUT if the specimin is in an environment where thinking (and learning) is disencuraged, you'll never evolve (sidelines where a failiure to interact allow learning are inherently doomed). > Beats the hell out of wrapping the > whole world in padding and taking away everything that might possibly kill > some moron. Historically, it's been things like rockets, guns, swingsets, > mercury switches, fireplaces, and all the really good fireworks that The > Establishment has deemed too dangerous for us unwashed masses to play with. > Wonder how long until some loser chokes on a mouse ball or strangles himself > with the cord while trying to plug in his new business card scanner and mice > are required to come with warning labels? Well, thare's a feedback mechanism: the growing number of analphabets ... Of course there is more - I had the pleasure to stay a long time next to the consol screen of a dial up mailbox during the 80s. One may be right to assume that the guys (and few gals) using this kind of service, _way_ before the pubic even noticed stuff like 'networks', have been the forerunner of geekhood, and therefore able not only to read, but also to understand and follow directions. WRONG. I can't count the number of thimes they called for help on subjects like 'how do I break out of menu xxx' even when there was a menu item 'press X to leave', or 'how do I skip the help scree' wehn the first line of the help message was 'X to skip message... You're realy getting sick of it and loose all trust in mankind. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From KB9VU at aol.com Fri Feb 11 06:03:34 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: FS: HP 7550 Message-ID: HP 7550 plotter. Includes spare pen carousel, pens, three trays and docs. No software. Trade for Ham Radio gear or sell. Offers? Mike From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Feb 11 07:21:56 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: Running a TK50 "on the bench" Message-ID: <000211082156.256013c0@trailing-edge.com> >I have a TK-50 with a tape stuck in it, it is malfunking :-) > >I thought I would put it on my workbench and power it up but that doesn't >seem to leave it with enough smarts to load and eject tapes. Do I have to >hook a TQK50 to it? (I suppose I could bolt a bit of Qbus to a board with >power but I'd rather not if I don't have to.) A properly functioning TK50 should be able to load and eject tapes even if not plugged into a controller. Can you rapidly switch in/out the red light/button for three or so cycles, with the final position being "out" (unload)? What happens when you try this? If *nothing* happens, then there's something seriously wrong (electrically) with this TK50. If it attempts to unload but doesn't quite do it, and ends up with the red button blinking rapidly, then there's probably a mechanical problem, most likely with one of the capstans or the corresponding optical interrupter. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 08:36:28 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: Running a TK50 "on the bench" Message-ID: <20000211143628.12611.qmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >I have a TK-50 with a tape stuck in it, it is malfunking :-) > > If it attempts to unload but > doesn't quite do it, and ends up with the red button blinking rapidly, > then there's probably a mechanical problem, most likely with one of the > capstans or the corresponding optical interrupter. I have a problem with one TK50 that the connector between the motors and one of the PCBs is flaky. It will load tapes sometimes, but eventually, the tape goes slack in the drive and won't rewind. I've fiddled with it enough that the next time I need to use this particular unit, I'm going to take Allison's advice and solder the motors to the board. I would remove the covers and see what state the tape is in. It might be half-in, half-out, it might be stuck on the leader, indicating a problem with the optical interrupters as mentioned before. Also, when you get the tape out, finally, inspect the barb at the end of the takeup leader in the drive (not the cassette). If it is crimped, you'll get unreliable loading. If it's missing, you won't get *any* loading. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Feb 11 09:31:30 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: PR1ME Available Message-ID: <01BF747B.29513310.steverob@hotoffice.com> Found this in another newsgroup: -------------------------------------------------------------------- We have a Prime 9650 computer available to a good home. This system was under ComputerVision maintenance until they dropped support for the 9650 last July. There are two system cabinets and a half-height tape drive cabinet. Our company was at one time a Prime business partner. This machine was purchased under an agreement that allows us to resell the machine WITH the operating system after a usage period (long past). Stuff that is working 100%: 9650 CPU, 6 mb memory PRIMOS Operating System (32 user?) ICS-II 32 ports Y2K Primos tape set (not installed) (2) 315 MB Disk drives (one nearly "new") 8mm Prime tape drive COBOL Compiler FORMS, MIDASPLUS PRIMELINK, 10 user. Lost of Manuals Additional stuff that doesn't necessarily work: 1/2" reel tape drive 3200 bpi (needs minor work) CDC 496 MB Disk drive and cabinet (crashed probably) 1/4" cartridge tape drive (worked when we unplugged it 5 years ago) Contact: Kevin Davidson QS Technologies kevin@qsinc.com (864) 232-2666 x 3505 ----------------------------------------------- Sounds like a really cool system. The system is located in Greenville SC and consists of two LARGE cabinets and one smaller one. The whole lot probably weighs 1000+ lbs. As always, reply to the original poster, not me! Steve Robertson From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Feb 11 09:59:17 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: Web archive of old Usenet posts Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000211095917.01457a00@pc> Several times in the past I've ranted to this list about my hope for a more ancient version of DejaNews, a web archive of old Usenet posts. Below is an e-mail I received from someone who has the start of an archive. He's searching for more volunteers for the project. I think this would be a tremendous resource for classic computer collectors and historians. - John To: John Foust Subject: Re: Old usenet news? From: Michael Stutz X-Mailer: MH-E (emacs20) X-Url: http://dsl.org/ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:16:57 -0500 Sender: m@dsl.org Been thinking about a potential Usenet archive restoration project lately, how such a project might work. I don't think it's a one-man job -- too many people are probably going to have different ideas on how to store it, availability, interface, etc. This is what I think needs to happen: - there needs to be some kind of public discussion area for the project (like a newsgroup or mailing list) - a repository needs to be put in place, where people can send their archives. any size would probably be good enough to begin with, even a few gigs. hard drives are cheap now and it shouldn't be too difficult for someone to be able to get at least 10gb, which i think should be enough to at least begin assembling some of the old years, and whatever misc. stuff from pre-95 that people have? While I'm very interested in this, I don't have time to oversee or coordinate it. (I assume that you don't, either?) However, I've been assembling what notes I can -- URLs of known archives, addresses of interested people, related threads. I've begun putting all this together in html and plan on putting it on the web, just to make a convergence point for likeminded individuals -- maybe it might provide the impetus for someone else to begin such a project? Or at least get the attention of someone who has a 20gb hard drive on some ftp box at some university or organization somewhere, where some of the old archives could begin to be reassembled? (I'd think such a restoration project would make a great research project for someone, maybe?) As I think I mentioned before, I've got some archives from specific groups, and a lot of old threads and even single articles saved. If there was a coordinator and a system in place (even 1gb to start? or a box with access to a cd-burner or some other removeable media?), I bet a post to slashdot would draw in hundreds of people like me, or more, with their old archives. m P.S. On a related note, I'd like to see an open-source replacement for imdb.com happen, but again it's not a project I can take on right now. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Feb 11 10:04:03 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: Running a TK50 "on the bench" Message-ID: <000211110403.256013cc@trailing-edge.com> >I have a problem with one TK50 that the connector between the motors >and one of the PCBs is flaky. It will load tapes sometimes, but >eventually, the tape goes slack in the drive and won't rewind. In my experience this particular problem is often due to the capstan near the take-up reel side. If the tape gets pulled over the capstan without the capstan actually turning, the TK50 gets confused and thinks that no tape motion is taking place, so it gives up. Check that all the capstans turn nice and freely before assuming the problem is in the electronics. >I would remove the covers and see what state the tape is in. It might be >half-in, half-out, it might be stuck on the leader, indicating a problem >with the optical interrupters as mentioned before. Also, when you get the >tape out, finally, inspect the barb at the end of the takeup leader in the >drive (not the cassette). If it is crimped, you'll get unreliable loading. >If it's missing, you won't get *any* loading. Absolutely - in fact, before loading a TK50 in unknown condition it's always a good idea to make sure the take-up doo-dad is in the correct position and in good shape. Tim. From ernestls at home.com Fri Feb 11 10:10:59 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Manuals/software to trade. Message-ID: <000001bf74aa$96af5ac0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> I have several TRS-80 user manuals with the original software to trade or sell. I would like to trade them for something of a vintage computer nature. I'm a general collector of vintage computers so anything of interest will be considered. If no one wants them, then I'll stick them on Ebay. These manuals are all in good condition, and the disks are all 5.25 size. 1. Model 4 Disk Sciptsit Ver. 1.00 -this is a word processing program for the TRS-80 Model 4. It lets you type, proof-read, revise, print, and save. This program is in it's original :SFD box, with the user manual, reference card, registration card, etc., and the original software disk (for TRSDOS 6.01.00.) (1983) 2. Model 4 TRSDOS 6.2 Utilities Manual -this is the original large, brown vinyl notebook binder (catalog #26-0315.) It includes the original TRSDOS 6.2 Utilities disk, in the inner sleeve pocket. (1983) 3. Model 1/3 Hard Disk Operating System Manual -this is the original large, brown vinyl notebook binder (catalog #26-1130.) This manual explains how to setup, install, and operate the Hard Disk System using LDOS, on the Model 1 and Model 3 computers. This is a thick user manual, and it includes two original disks -Model 3 Hard Disk Operating System LDOS Ver. 5.1.3, and the Model 3 Hard Disk Operating System Initialization Disk LDOS Ver. 5.1.3., in the inner sleeve. 4. Model 4 Disk System Owner's Manual -this is the original large, brown vinyl notebook binder (catalog #26-0316 I think.)This manual explains how to use the Model 4 (with floppy disks,) and how to use TRSDOS Ver. 6. It includes the original TRSDOS Ver. 6 and BASIC Interpreter Disk. (1983) 5. Model 4 VideoTex Plus User Manual -this is the original large, brown vinyl notebook binder (catalog # 26-1598.) This manual is in three parts -the Dow Jones Information Service User Guide, the CompuServe Information Service User Guide, and the VideoTex Plus User Guide. VideoTex Plus is a communications program for communicating with information services, and other host computers. It includes the original VideoTex Plus program disk for TRSDOS 6. (1983.) 6. Model 4p (portable) -original MODELA/III File program disk -for use with TRSDOS 1.3 only. (catalog # 700-3213.) 7. Several non-original program disks on Radio Shack TRS-80 Brand Floppy disks. I don't know what versions or OS these disks are but they are for the TRS-80 (Model unknown) -PFS Report on bootable disk -PFS File on bootable disk -PFS File Backup (non bootable) -VisiCalc on bootable disk -VisiCalc on bootable disk (2nd) -VisiCalc Backup (non bootable) -Scriptsit on bootable disk -BASIC 2c GoldKey Revision 1.03.00 (3/85) Let me know if you're interested, and you can contact me directly at ernestls@home.com or leucoplast@seanet.com. Thanks, Ernest From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 11 11:23:38 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <38A3EA1F.39607B78@pittstate.edu> Message-ID: > also take into account that 90% of the people dumping these types of things are the > same people that after a full year of internet venturing still have no idea what URL Or how to limit line length to LESS than 80 characters And as to the braille keypads on drive-thru ATMs: Although there was a cockamamie notion that it was due to manufacturers selecting one keypad to use regardless of whether a given unit would end up in drive-thru or not, we all know that the REAL reason is so that you won't have to tell your PIN (password) to your dog who drives you to the ATM. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Feb 11 12:06:09 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have this URL and I'd like to find their netaddress n.n.n.n, how? ******http://opt-inbroadcasts.net/remove/remove4.html Apparently this is a spam gatherer as I got mail with this as the way to get on their remove list. I suspect it's really a collect list. Also while looking around (with arp) I have a few address I don't know and would like to translate that to a url or domain name. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 11 12:09:44 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: FS: HP 7550 In-Reply-To: FS: HP 7550 (KB9VU@aol.com) References: Message-ID: <14500.20584.930125.771443@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 11, KB9VU@aol.com wrote: > HP 7550 plotter. Includes spare pen carousel, pens, three trays and docs. > No software. Trade for Ham Radio gear or sell. Offers? Wow...the 7550 is a beautiful machine! I'd definitely be interested in buying it, but I already have one! :-) -Dave McGuire From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Feb 11 11:15:23 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. Message-ID: <005901bf74b3$94e58120$aa28d1d8@default> US customs has decided that people/companies in the US are avoiding tariffs by "importing computer components through Canada" ... even if they are over 30 years old. I (and others I know) in Canada have had quite a few problems (just over the last two months) shipping computer components and documentation to the US. My last eBay buyer spent quite a bit of time trying to convince US customs they were not trying to avoid tariffs... [these materials were well over 25 years old] I wanted every Canadian List member to know that if you indicate the contents of the package to contain computer parts/manuals then, no mater how old, these items could be held up in customs or rejected if you don't provide contact info to customs. (customs doesn't seem to have a clue that *old* computer parts fall outside their tariff issue). Since computer parts are "electronic boards/parts" and manuals/documentation can fall under "books" I recommend describing items as such. Shipping whole mini computers are another issue. Generally, make sure both phone numbers are on the parcel so US customs can contact the shipper/buyer immediately with their concerns. Good luck! john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Feb 11 12:32:48 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? Message-ID: <000211133248.256013cc@trailing-edge.com> >Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? I don't think it is actually routed anywhere, but it's part of a block that belongs to Microsoft according to the ARIN ( http;//www.arin.net/whois/ ): Microsoft Corporation (NETBLK-MICROSOFT-BBLK) One Microsoft Way Redmond, WA 98052 Netname: MICROSOFT-BBLK Netblock: 157.54.0.0 - 157.60.0.0 Coordinator: Parameshwaran, Krishnan (KP26-ARIN) KrishnaP@MICROSOFT.COM (206) 882-8080 Record last updated on 14-Oct-1998. Database last updated on 11-Feb-2000 05:36:03 EDT. >I have this URL and I'd like to find their netaddress n.n.n.n, how? >******http://opt-inbroadcasts.net/remove/remove4.html >Apparently this is a spam gatherer as I got mail with this as the way >to get on their remove list. I suspect it's really a collect list. $ mu nslookup opt-inbroadcasts.net Server: LOCALHOST Address: 127.0.0.1 Name: OPT-INBROADCASTS.NET Address: 208.26.83.110 $ whois/host=whois.networksolutions.com opt-inbroadcasts.net Registrant: opt-inbroadcasts.net (OPT-INBROADCASTS2-DOM) 4400 NW 19th Ave Suite B Pompano, FL 33064 US >Also while looking around (with arp) I have a few address I don't know >and would like to translate that to a url or domain name. Doing a reverse nslookup may work, *if* they've got a PTR record and they haven't chosen to purposefully put wrong information in the PTR record. A traceroute may sometimes give useful results if the IP address is actually in the routing tables. If it's not in the routing tables, you may as well pop Elvis into the 8-track and listen to "Return to Sender." -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Feb 11 12:40:51 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: Running a TK50 "on the bench" In-Reply-To: <000211082156.256013c0@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000211103622.00930130@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 08:21 AM 2/11/00 -0500, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >A properly functioning TK50 should be able to load and eject tapes >even if not plugged into a controller. That's good to know. When powered up the green light on the left goes on and the red button/light doesn't do anything. I took the bronze cover off and the tape is attached to the leader grabber thingy but hasn't yet made a wrap around the hub. >Can you rapidly switch in/out the red light/button for three or so cycles, >with the final position being "out" (unload)? What happens when you >try this? If *nothing* happens, then there's something seriously >wrong (electrically) with this TK50. If it attempts to unload but >doesn't quite do it, and ends up with the red button blinking rapidly, >then there's probably a mechanical problem, most likely with one of the >capstans or the corresponding optical interrupter. I didn't try it "three or so" times, I did push the button in, and then push it again to leave it out and nothing seemed to happen. To be honest though if it blinked for just a second i wouldn't have seen it. I'm going to look carefully at the capstan roller to see if it is turnable. --Chuck From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Feb 11 13:43:22 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: References: <38A3EA1F.39607B78@pittstate.edu> Message-ID: <200002111844.TAA22820@mail2.siemens.de> > > also take into account that 90% of the people dumping these types of things are the > > same people that after a full year of internet venturing still have no idea what URL > Or how to limit line length to LESS than 80 characters Hey, any usefull system limits text length to 72 caracters (or better 71, since column 72 is reserved for the 'continue' asterix), since you need column 1 to 8 for the key :) SCNR Hans -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Feb 11 12:47:35 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.20000211104245.044d4f10@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >I have this URL and I'd like to find their netaddress n.n.n.n, how? > >******http://opt-inbroadcasts.net/remove/remove4.html >Apparently this is a spam gatherer as I got mail with this as the way >to get on their remove list. I suspect it's really a collect list. One way is to type 'ping opt-inbroadcasts.net' which will look up the name in DNS and then try to send it an ICMP echo message. The version of ping I've got on FreeBSD also prints out the IP address when it does this. It gives 208.26.83.110 as its IP address. Then there is the 'whois' command that will tell you where the domain is registers (you can also goto www.internic.net for this) --Chuck From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Feb 11 12:57:52 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. Message-ID: <000211135752.256013cc@trailing-edge.com> >US customs has decided As with all bureacracies, trying to make a blanket statement is difficult and usually wrong... > that people/companies in the US are avoiding tariffs >by "importing computer components through Canada" ... even if they are over >30 years old. Do you have a particular source for this information? I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm saying that I want to learn more. If there's some specific directive number that'll be particularly valuable. >I (and others I know) in Canada have had quite a few problems (just over the >last two months) shipping computer components and documentation to the US. Oh, absolutely. I've had Canadian *government* customers with their media turned back at the border because the US government couldn't make head or tails of what it was. (These were 8" floppies and paper tapes, BTW.) That particular governmental agency now flies the media down in an employee's luggage. >I wanted every Canadian List member to know that if you indicate the >contents of the package to contain computer parts/manuals then, no mater how >old, these items could be held up in customs or rejected if you don't >provide contact info to customs. (customs doesn't seem to have a clue that >*old* computer parts fall outside their tariff issue). You're using the wrong language. If you claim to US customs that what you're doing falls outside their scope, you're only going to convince them that what you're dong is something that they should be concerned with. This isn't an attitude unique to US customs, it'll happen with most any customs service. In particular, to a customs officer "old" often means "potentially antique and valuable". And I've had Canadian customs officials explain to me several times that "zero value" is not possible. If it had no value, you wouldn't be trying to ship it. >Generally, make sure both phone numbers >are on the parcel so US customs can contact the shipper/buyer immediately >with their concerns. Absolutely. I despise customs brokers - and even more their charges - but sometimes having someone there to expedite things is worth the bucks. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Feb 11 13:06:17 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: Running a TK50 "on the bench" Message-ID: <000211140617.256013cc@trailing-edge.com> >>A properly functioning TK50 should be able to load and eject tapes >>even if not plugged into a controller. >That's good to know. When powered up the green light on the left goes on >and the red button/light doesn't do anything. I took the bronze cover off >and the tape is attached to the leader grabber thingy but hasn't yet made a >wrap around the hub. Has leader been pulled out of the cartridge at all? If not, then you can just nudge the door-unlock solenoid (on the right side of the drive near the front) and pull the cartridge out. If the leader *has* been pulled out of the cartridge, trying to do this will leave you with a big mess. >push it again to leave it out and nothing seemed to happen. To be honest >though if it blinked for just a second i wouldn't have seen it. I'm going >to look carefully at the capstan roller to see if it is turnable. If it's not trying to move the tape at all, I don't think it's the capstan roller. One question that's vitally important right here: is this an important tape stuck in the drive, or a scratch tape? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From barry at dobyns.com Fri Feb 11 13:10:37 2000 From: barry at dobyns.com (Barry A. Dobyns) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? Message-ID: <015401bf74c3$aeb97e20$5faafd26@thinman.dobyns.com> Most of the following is at the command prompt of the nearest Unix/Linux/NetBSD box) First you ping it to see if it's really there: [bdobyns@dobyns bdobyns]$ ping -c 100 157.55.85.212 PING 157.55.85.212 (157.55.85.212): 56 data bytes --- 157.55.85.212 ping statistics --- 100 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100% packet loss [bdobyns@dobyns bdobyns]$ Of course, it's not. so then you try to do reverse DNS on it. [bdobyns@dobyns bdobyns]$ nslookup Default Server: dobyns.com Address: 38.253.170.188 > set type=any > 212.85.55.157.in-addr.arpa. Server: dobyns.com Address: 38.253.170.188 *** dobyns.com can't find 212.85.55.157.in-addr.arpa.: Non-existent host/domain > 85.55.157.in-addr.arpa. Server: dobyns.com Address: 38.253.170.188 *** dobyns.com can't find 85.55.157.in-addr.arpa.: Non-existent host/domain > 55.157.in-addr.arpa. Server: dobyns.com Address: 38.253.170.188 *** dobyns.com can't find 55.157.in-addr.arpa.: Non-existent host/domain > 157.in-addr.arpa. Server: dobyns.com Address: 38.253.170.188 in-addr.arpa origin = A.ROOT-SERVERS.NET mail addr = hostmaster.INTERNIC.NET serial = 2000021014 refresh = 1800 (30M) retry = 900 (15M) expire = 604800 (1W) minimum ttl = 86400 (1D) > exit [bdobyns@dobyns bdobyns]$ Of course that fails since spammers don't ever have reverse DNS set up right. Then we try a traceroute, to see if we can "get close" and figure out where it's from. [bdobyns@dobyns bdobyns]$ !/usr /usr/sbin/traceroute 157.55.85.212 traceroute: Warning: Multiple interfaces found; using 38.253.170.190 @ eth0 traceroute to 157.55.85.212 (157.55.85.212), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 ipr254.dobyns.com (38.253.170.254) 2.776 ms 2.666 ms 2.665 ms 2 38-default-gw.psi.net (38.1.1.1) 153.382 ms 152.071 ms 147.602 ms 3 38.18.19.1 (38.18.19.1) 140.295 ms 141.904 ms 161.680 ms 4 rc8.nw.us.psi.net (38.1.43.8) 149.090 ms 155.449 ms 147.925 ms 5 * rc1.nw.us.psi.net (38.1.23.193) 139.237 ms !H * 6 * * * 7 * * * 8 * * * 9 * * * 10 * * * 11 * * * 12 * * * 13 * * * 14 * * * 15 * [bdobyns@dobyns bdobyns]$ Which fails miserably, the backbone routers don't even have a path to it. So I try from another box on a different network. This is to make sure that it's not a routing problem at my ISP. Which it sometimes is. [bdobyns@ns1 bdobyns]$ /usr/sbin/traceroute 157.55.85.212 traceroute to 157.55.85.212 (157.55.85.212), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 router.wwg.com (209.24.64.161) 3.232 ms 3.020 ms 3.952 ms 2 hs-2-0-0-96.a03.mtvwca01.us.ra.verio.net (209.24.0.161) 11.312 ms 14.128 ms 11.260 ms 3 * * * 4 * * * 5 * * hs-2-0-0-96.a03.mtvwca01.us.ra.verio.net (209.24.0.161) 12.440 ms !H 6 * * * 7 * * * 8 * * * 9 * * * 10 * * * 11 * * * 12 * * * 13 * * * 14 * * * Now I believe that it's unroutable. Finaly we go to http://www.arin.net/whois/index.html and use the whois tool with our IP address Microsoft Corporation (NETBLK-MICROSOFT-BBLK) One Microsoft Way Redmond, WA 98052 Netname: MICROSOFT-BBLK Netblock: 157.54.0.0 - 157.60.0.0 Coordinator: Parameshwaran, Krishnan (KP26-ARIN) KrishnaP@MICROSOFT.COM (206) 882-8080 Record last updated on 14-Oct-1998. Database last updated on 11-Feb-2000 05:36:03 EDT. Doh! should have done this first. Which is as good as it gets - it's somewhere inside Microsoft. Finally, to translate an URL to an IP address, go back to your *nix command prompt, and dig around. [bdobyns@dobyns bdobyns]$ nslookup Default Server: dobyns.com Address: 38.253.170.188 > set type=any > opt-inbroadcasts.net Server: dobyns.com Address: 38.253.170.188 Non-authoritative answer: opt-inbroadcasts.net nameserver = ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net opt-inbroadcasts.net internet address = 208.26.83.110 Authoritative answers can be found from: opt-inbroadcasts.net nameserver = ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net internet address = 63.160.130.115 > server ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net Default Server: ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net Address: 63.160.130.115 > opt-inbroadcasts.net Server: ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net Address: 63.160.130.115 opt-inbroadcasts.net nameserver = ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net opt-inbroadcasts.net origin = opt-inbroadcasts.net mail addr = root.opt-inbroadcasts.net serial = 2000021101 refresh = 300 (5M) retry = 300 (5M) expire = 300 (5M) minimum ttl = 300 (5M) opt-inbroadcasts.net preference = 20, mail exchanger = mail.opt-inbroadcasts.net opt-inbroadcasts.net internet address = 208.26.83.110 opt-inbroadcasts.net nameserver = ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net internet address = 63.160.130.115 > ls opt-inbroadcasts.net [ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net] $ORIGIN opt-inbroadcasts.net. @ 5M IN A 208.26.83.110 ns1 5M IN A 63.160.130.116 ns 5M IN A 63.160.130.115 > exit [bdobyns@dobyns bdobyns]$ -b ----- Barry A. Dobyns, barry@dobyns.com, http://barry.dobyns.com -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 11, 2000 10:35 AM Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? > >I have this URL and I'd like to find their netaddress n.n.n.n, how? > >******http://opt-inbroadcasts.net/remove/remove4.html >Apparently this is a spam gatherer as I got mail with this as the way >to get on their remove list. I suspect it's really a collect list. > >Also while looking around (with arp) I have a few address I don't know >and would like to translate that to a url or domain name. > >Allison > > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Feb 11 12:12:30 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. Message-ID: <007201bf74bb$8fb0d3a0$aa28d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 11, 2000 2:01 PM Subject: RE: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. >>US customs has decided > >As with all bureacracies, trying to make a blanket statement is difficult >and usually wrong... > >> that people/companies in the US are avoiding tariffs >>by "importing computer components through Canada" ... even if they are over >>30 years old. > >Do you have a particular source for this information? I'm not saying >that you're wrong, I'm saying that I want to learn more. If there's >some specific directive number that'll be particularly valuable. > My source 3 of my last few shipments have either been "rejected, held , or not arrived yet due to customs delays". I received an email from two others (one today) who said US customs felt they were trying to avoid US tarriffs and had to speak to customs for awhile to have the items released. I do not have a directive order other than I spoke to a broker friend of mine who said truckers are getting increasingly P'od with US customs because they are really slowing things up if they have any computer parts in the truck. >>I (and others I know) in Canada have had quite a few problems (just over the >>last two months) shipping computer components and documentation to the US. > >Oh, absolutely. I've had Canadian *government* customers with their >media turned back at the border because the US government couldn't make >head or tails of what it was. (These were 8" floppies and paper tapes, >BTW.) That particular governmental agency now flies the media down >in an employee's luggage. > Doesn't seem to be a problem with Canadian customs. Never had an item held up or rejected yet. >>I wanted every Canadian List member to know that if you indicate the >>contents of the package to contain computer parts/manuals then, no mater how >>old, these items could be held up in customs or rejected if you don't >>provide contact info to customs. (customs doesn't seem to have a clue that >>*old* computer parts fall outside their tariff issue). > >You're using the wrong language. If you claim to US customs that what >you're doing falls outside their scope, you're only going to convince >them that what you're dong is something that they should be concerned with. >This isn't an attitude unique to US customs, it'll happen with most >any customs service. > I don't say that *to* customs.. I am saying that about them. >In particular, to a customs officer "old" often means "potentially antique >and valuable". > >And I've had Canadian customs officials explain to me several times >that "zero value" is not possible. If it had no value, you wouldn't >be trying to ship it. > I never ship anything with a "zero" value, ever! In fact, the last shipment that was held up was valued at $400! And US customs felt the buyer was trying to avoid tarriffs by buying from Canadians. Morons. These particular DEC boards were manufactured in the states! >>Generally, make sure both phone numbers >>are on the parcel so US customs can contact the shipper/buyer immediately >>with their concerns. > >Absolutely. I despise customs brokers - and even more their charges - but >sometimes having someone there to expedite things is worth the bucks. > I have my own import/export number so I generally don't have to deal with them as long as my paperwork is correct. My problem is when I mail things to the US. Generally, when I send UPS I don't have a problem. US customs have slowed down shipments alot because some guy in BC tried to smuggle into the US a bunch of bomb material. BTW: Canadian Customs do believe old computer parts are *worthless*. I brought through two trucks filled to the top with old DEC stuff just last month. Value : $400. I opened the back of one... customs pointed a flashlight on an ASR-38.. said "God that's old".. and called the loads scrap. Over the past 15 years of imports I have never had any problem bringing in old minis... well, oher than Canadian customs wondering why someone would waste gas and time to cart the *junk* here. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From mrbelles at pittstate.edu Fri Feb 11 13:58:52 2000 From: mrbelles at pittstate.edu (mark belles) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! References: <38A3EA1F.39607B78@pittstate.edu> <200002111844.TAA22820@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <38A469FC.2784125A@pittstate.edu> Hey, sorry bout that? I thought that I had this puppy cranked down for ya'll. Won't happen again....lol well just goes to show...I don't know how to correctly format a composition. Hehe. Mark. ps...this is plain text...is it better for you guys this way? Hans Franke wrote: Or how to limit line length to LESS than 80 characters > > Hey, any usefull system limits text length to 72 caracters (or > better 71, since column 72 is reserved for the 'continue' asterix), > since you need column 1 to 8 for the key :) > > SCNR > Hans > > -- > Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ > Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ > Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Feb 11 15:10:40 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: Going totaly OT (was: Dumpster stories!) In-Reply-To: <20000210165917.A763@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000 Message-ID: <200002112011.VAA05156@mail2.siemens.de> > On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > > I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, > > but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that > > they hadn't been taught not to do such things. > I agree... My parents covered all this stuff -- they told us not to dig inside > snowbanks because a plow might come, we all wore seat belts way before there > was a law (bicycle helmets too), our parents strictly enforced what we could > and couldn't watch on TV so there was no need for V chips (I can't believe > they're making us pay for censorship devices now just because some absentee > parent religious freaks got upset), Please, what are V-Chips - I always associate the NEC CPU series with that. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Feb 11 14:48:47 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: Running a TK50 "on the bench" In-Reply-To: <000211140617.256013cc@trailing-edge.com>; from CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com on Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 02:06:17PM -0500 References: <000211140617.256013cc@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000211144847.T18249@mrbill.net> One quick question - anybody recommend a good place for DLT tape drive repair? I've got a drive here that I need to have looked at (it wont even pull the tape in out of the cartridge, now). fun way to de-spool most of a DLT IV tape from a drive: wrap the end of the broken tape around the rotating part of a power drill, pull the trigger. 8-) Bill On Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 02:06:17PM -0500, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > One question that's vitally important right here: is this an important > tape stuck in the drive, or a scratch tape? -- +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@pdp11.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | | http://www.sunhelp.org | http://www.pdp11.org | http://www.mrbill.net | +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Fri Feb 11 15:03:04 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) Message-ID: <018e01bf74d3$643cf060$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> I don't know the technical details, but here's my understanding: The V-chip is a device that will be installed by law in every VCR and TV manufactured in the U.S., which will allow parents to selectively block content that they find objectionable. So, for example, if I think it's o.k. for my child to see a little bit of romance and sex, I could set the "Sex" limit to 2 out of 5. If I wanted to block all violent programming, I could set the "Violence" limit to 0 out of 5. The device would detect the Sex and Violence levels of all incoming programming (I don't know who would rate the programs). If the program is over the limit that I've set, the device blocks the TV or VCR from showing the program. Of course, given the number of people who can't even figure out how to program their VCRs, I suspect that the kids will be better at changing the limits than their parents - I presume that the system includes passwords or something to prevent unauthorized changing of the limits. I believe that the V-chip concept was invented by a Canadian company, but I may be wrong on this. Regards, Mark Gregory -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 11, 2000 1:43 PM Subject: Going totaly OT (was: Dumpster stories!) >> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >> > I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, >> > but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that >> > they hadn't been taught not to do such things. > >> I agree... My parents covered all this stuff -- they told us not to dig inside >> snowbanks because a plow might come, we all wore seat belts way before there >> was a law (bicycle helmets too), our parents strictly enforced what we could >> and couldn't watch on TV so there was no need for V chips (I can't believe >> they're making us pay for censorship devices now just because some absentee >> parent religious freaks got upset), > >Please, what are V-Chips - I always associate the NEC CPU series with that. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 11 15:15:23 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: Going totaly OT (was: Dumpster stories!) Message-ID: <001001bf74d5$2f840320$0400c0a8@winbook> V-chips are mandatory features built into new TV sets that allow parents to disable viewing of certain programs. These were designed before it was demnostrated that an child over 6 years of age was able to defeat them before their parents figured out how to use them. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 11, 2000 1:28 PM Subject: Going totaly OT (was: Dumpster stories!) >> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >> > I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, >> > but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that >> > they hadn't been taught not to do such things. > >> I agree... My parents covered all this stuff -- they told us not to dig inside >> snowbanks because a plow might come, we all wore seat belts way before there >> was a law (bicycle helmets too), our parents strictly enforced what we could >> and couldn't watch on TV so there was no need for V chips (I can't believe >> they're making us pay for censorship devices now just because some absentee >> parent religious freaks got upset), > >Please, what are V-Chips - I always associate the NEC CPU series with that. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Feb 11 16:24:38 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) In-Reply-To: <018e01bf74d3$643cf060$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> Message-ID: <200002112125.WAA14087@mail2.siemens.de> > The V-chip is a device that will be installed by law in every VCR and TV > manufactured in the U.S., which will allow parents to selectively block > content that they find objectionable. So, for example, if I think it's o.k. > for my child to see a little bit of romance and sex, I could set the "Sex" > limit to 2 out of 5. If I wanted to block all violent programming, I could > set the "Violence" limit to 0 out of 5. The device would detect the Sex and > Violence levels of all incoming programming (I don't know who would rate > the programs). If the program is over the limit that I've set, the device > blocks the TV or VCR from showing the program. Let me get this straight - there is some software to be implemented on TVs and VCRs to disable them on a contend related base ? Just assuming that there will be some kind of add on signal (at this point I'd like to get some technical information) suplying the level(s) of whatever (what classes are named ?), who is responsible to judge the content ? Also, are the TV stations also forced to supply the coding all the time ? Maybe that's part of the US economic 'Wirtschaftswunder' - now TV stations need not only on guy to handle the clap-o-mat, but a second to rate the content all the time (asuming its not a preset thing like: Cartoon Network = Violence 5, Sex 0 etc.). BTW: I know there is violence on US-TV - but sex ? Small content providers like local chanels may have some dificulties, either to supply it at all, or supply it on a constant level - just think about the 'open' chanels in big cities ... If the judgement is done by the producer, someone of a 'nude acceping' show may have a different feeling about the 'sex rating' then the next guy who airs some TV church stuff. > Of course, given the number of people who can't even figure out how to > program their VCRs, I suspect that the kids will be better at changing the > limits than their parents - I presume that the system includes passwords or > something to prevent unauthorized changing of the limits. You mean VCRs don't have to blink all the time ? Well, the thing is doomed from either side. Gruss H. P.S.: is there any _reliable_ source for information on the web ? -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Feb 11 15:29:03 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. In-Reply-To: <005901bf74b3$94e58120$aa28d1d8@default> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000211132903.00892d20@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: For your info, I'm in Canada, and shipped about 75 lbs of old pdp-11 boards to the US this week without any problems. I indicated "Obsolete Computer Parts" on the customs form. Looks like others may be having trouble, but none here on the west coast so far. Fingers crossed, Kevin At 12:15 PM 11/02/00 -0500, you wrote: >US customs has decided that people/companies in the US are avoiding tariffs >by "importing computer components through Canada" ... even if they are over >30 years old. > >I (and others I know) in Canada have had quite a few problems (just over the >last two months) shipping computer components and documentation to the US. > >My last eBay buyer spent quite a bit of time trying to convince US customs >they were not trying to avoid tariffs... [these materials were well over 25 >years old] > >I wanted every Canadian List member to know that if you indicate the >contents of the package to contain computer parts/manuals then, no mater how >old, these items could be held up in customs or rejected if you don't >provide contact info to customs. (customs doesn't seem to have a clue that >*old* computer parts fall outside their tariff issue). > >Since computer parts are "electronic boards/parts" and manuals/documentation >can fall under "books" I recommend describing items as such. Shipping whole >mini computers are another issue. Generally, make sure both phone numbers >are on the parcel so US customs can contact the shipper/buyer immediately >with their concerns. > >Good luck! > > >john > > >PDP-8 and other rare mini computers > >http://www.pdp8.com > > > > > ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Feb 11 15:32:55 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. In-Reply-To: <007201bf74bb$8fb0d3a0$aa28d1d8@default> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000211133255.008dd340@mail.sfu.ca> At 01:12 PM 11/02/00 -0500, you wrote: >BTW: Canadian Customs do believe old computer parts are *worthless*. I >brought through two trucks filled to the top with old DEC stuff just last >month. Value : $400. I opened the back of one... customs pointed a >flashlight on an ASR-38.. said "God that's old".. and called the loads >scrap. Over the past 15 years of imports I have never had any problem >bringing in old minis... well, oher than Canadian customs wondering why >someone would waste gas and time to cart the *junk* here. My experience as well, bringing old radios, computer parts, and RX01s (dual 8" floppy drives) into Canada. No commercial value, no problem. Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Feb 11 15:40:42 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. References: <000211135752.256013cc@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <38A481DA.219C9035@bigfoot.com> The last few times I sent computer/related to Canada I marked the parcels "obsolete computer or printer parts-gift" and the value as a couple dollars. I normally send them UPS rather than USPS as I think much of the problem is with our glorious postal service inspectors as well. As for things I recieve I have them marked the same and the word "gift" specified on all paperwork to include openly on the label. "Obsolete" seems to mean a different thing to them as opposed to "old" What was the purpose of NAFTA anyway? Things are tighter and a bigger pain now than they were before NAFTA, especially to Canada. Mexico doesn't seem to be very much trouble lately. CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >US customs has decided > > As with all bureacracies, trying to make a blanket statement is difficult > and usually wrong... From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Fri Feb 11 15:41:27 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000211132903.00892d20@mail.sfu.ca> from Kevin McQuiggin at "Feb 11, 2000 01:29:03 pm" Message-ID: <20000211214136Z433764-14195+177@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Hi Gang: > > For your info, I'm in Canada, and shipped about 75 lbs of old pdp-11 boards > to the US this week without any problems. I indicated "Obsolete Computer > Parts" on the customs form. > > Looks like others may be having trouble, but none here on the west coast so > far. > I was going to suggest the use of "obsolete", but I recall some discussion about this term in the past :-). Many years ago a friendly customs agent explained the process to me. Most customs organizations work on a keyword basis (not the term used by the customs agent). If you find the right keyword, you don't have any problems. If you use the word "old" you are likely to have problems, because that implies valuable. If you use the word "obsolete", it implies of little value, and it will go through. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Feb 11 15:45:54 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: Going totaly OT (was: Dumpster stories!) In-Reply-To: <200002112011.VAA05156@mail2.siemens.de> References: <20000210165917.A763@dbit.dbit.com> <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000211164301.00b5f230@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:11 PM 2/11/00 +0001, Hans Franke said something like: >> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: -- snip -- >> and couldn't watch on TV so there was no need for V chips (I can't believe >> they're making us pay for censorship devices now just because some absentee >> parent religious freaks got upset), > >Please, what are V-Chips - I always associate the NEC CPU series with that. Hoo boy, you'd have to ask . . . :-) That is a hot button among some folks over here. Anybody more articulate than me explain to the non-US folks this device used to censor certain TV programming from children? -Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Fri Feb 11 16:08:14 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) Message-ID: <01ad01bf74dc$7e56ad20$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> Here's a resource - not much technical detail, but explains how the system works better than I did: http://www.vchipeducation.org/index.html This gives some of the history of the idea: http://www.primenet.com/~acacia/soundview/Bio.html Apparently, the V-chips are only installed in Televisions, not VCRs, and some content (e.g. news, pay-per-view or cablesystem movies) is not necessarily rated. And the system uses the "Closed Captioning" signal to convey the program rating information. Cheers, Mark. -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 11, 2000 2:48 PM Subject: Re: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) >> The V-chip is a device that will be installed by law in every VCR and TV >> manufactured in the U.S., which will allow parents to selectively block >> content that they find objectionable. So, for example, if I think it's o.k. >> for my child to see a little bit of romance and sex, I could set the "Sex" >> limit to 2 out of 5. If I wanted to block all violent programming, I could >> set the "Violence" limit to 0 out of 5. The device would detect the Sex and >> Violence levels of all incoming programming (I don't know who would rate >> the programs). If the program is over the limit that I've set, the device >> blocks the TV or VCR from showing the program. > >Let me get this straight - there is some software to be implemented >on TVs and VCRs to disable them on a contend related base ? Just >assuming that there will be some kind of add on signal (at this point >I'd like to get some technical information) suplying the level(s) >of whatever (what classes are named ?), who is responsible to >judge the content ? > >Also, are the TV stations also forced to supply the coding all the time ? >Maybe that's part of the US economic 'Wirtschaftswunder' - now TV stations >need not only on guy to handle the clap-o-mat, but a second to rate >the content all the time (asuming its not a preset thing like: Cartoon >Network = Violence 5, Sex 0 etc.). > >BTW: I know there is violence on US-TV - but sex ? > >Small content providers like local chanels may have some dificulties, >either to supply it at all, or supply it on a constant level - just >think about the 'open' chanels in big cities ... If the judgement is >done by the producer, someone of a 'nude acceping' show may have a >different feeling about the 'sex rating' then the next guy who airs >some TV church stuff. > >> Of course, given the number of people who can't even figure out how to >> program their VCRs, I suspect that the kids will be better at changing the >> limits than their parents - I presume that the system includes passwords or >> something to prevent unauthorized changing of the limits. > >You mean VCRs don't have to blink all the time ? > >Well, the thing is doomed from either side. > >Gruss >H. > >P.S.: is there any _reliable_ source for information on the web ? > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Feb 11 16:37:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. In-Reply-To: <38A481DA.219C9035@bigfoot.com> References: <000211135752.256013cc@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >The last few times I sent computer/related to Canada I marked the parcels >"obsolete computer or printer parts-gift" and the value as a couple dollars. I >normally send them UPS rather than USPS as I think much of the problem is with UPS is notorious for charging abitrary and high broker fees, so ALL of my Canadian customs demand using another carrier, preferably USPS. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Feb 11 17:13:27 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) In-Reply-To: <200002112125.WAA14087@mail2.siemens.de>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 10:25:38PM +0000 References: <018e01bf74d3$643cf060$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> <200002112125.WAA14087@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <20000211181327.A3904@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 10:25:38PM +0000, Hans Franke wrote: > Let me get this straight - there is some software to be implemented > on TVs and VCRs to disable them on a contend related base ? Right. But remember, we're still the Land of the Free, even though most European countries give their citizens a lot more freedom. See, any time the majority (or better yet, a well-funded and vocal minority) wants something censored, it's not censorship -- the founding fathers were only trying to protect our rights to say stuff that everyone agrees with, they hate people with unpopular tastes or opinions. > Just > assuming that there will be some kind of add on signal (at this point > I'd like to get some technical information) suplying the level(s) > of whatever (what classes are named ?), who is responsible to > judge the content ? There, you've hit the biggest problem. My understanding is that it's just a single scale -- from "not offensive" to "very offensive", according to someone, somewhere. Since the government likes to see everything in terms of strict threshholds (55 MPH = no problem, 56+ MPH = OK to lay down tack strips and cause a fatal crash), they've convinced themselves that everyone is offended by the same stuff. So some invisible authority gets to decide what's offensive and what isn't and everything comes prepackaged (no I don't know what the protocol is for labeling the show but I assume it's some between-visible-scan-lines thing like closed captioning is), so you're just supposed to set your TV for whatever age your kids are (they're all the same age, right?) and leave it at that. > Also, are the TV stations also forced to supply the coding all the time ? I think it's supposed to be done per show. Like the current TV rating system, where they put up a logo at the beginning of each show saying what its rating is. Ridiculous... If I owned a TV network, I'd just set everything to "most offensive" and forget about it. > BTW: I know there is violence on US-TV - but sex ? There's no *real* sex on US TV, but the bible thumpers are offended by even the hint of it. They think that nudity is inherently wrong, and I just *love* the illogic that you can say anything you want but you can't use certain words to say it. Say the exact same thing another way and you're OK though. Anyway this is all just another attempt to idiot-proof the world. Instead of just sitting down with their kids at a young age and explaining what sex is and why it should be taken seriously, the lazy absentee parents think the right thing is for their kids to be prevented at all costs from even looking down in the bath tub, so that they have no idea what's really going on, and it all comes as a total shock to them when they turn 18. People are unbelievably repressed in this country though. I thought my parents did a pretty good job of explaining everything, but they left some important stuff out, like the fact that sex is fun! What a mind-bender, hearing about neighbors etc. that had gotten pregnant "by accident", I couldn't possibly imagine how people would pull off such a complicated disgusting procedure without meaning to. Makes a whole lot more sense now! > If the judgement is > done by the producer, someone of a 'nude acceping' show may have a > different feeling about the 'sex rating' then the next guy who airs > some TV church stuff. Exactly! Personally, I'm seriously, DEEPLY offended by anything to do with organized religion, yet as far as the government is concerned that stuff is all strictly G-rated. So I'll never convince my TV to automatically skip those shows. I have no problem with nudity though, and if I had kids I'd want them to see plenty of it too, so that the novelty would wear off and they wouldn't go into total cranial shutdown the way most Americans do when they see it (since we're strongly conditioned to think that the only time anyone shows any skin is when they're about to have sex with you, so we act like idiots when we see people naked in other contexts). But that's the *main* thing the government wants to stop us from seeing. Anyway, I'm not saying the government is trying to gradually eat away at our rights and subtly turn the USA into a totalitarian state so slowly that no one even notices. But if they WERE trying to do that, they'd go about it exactly this way! Well anyway, I was pissed off the *last* time the gov't forced everyone to pay for an unneeded feature in their TVs, which was closed captioning, but now I use it all the time! It's really handy when the actors are mumbling, or when they're talking in funny voices for no apparent reason (but the caption explains that they're quoting from a 1930s movie I never saw), or when my wife falls asleep but I want to keep watching. Yech, sorry about all this OT stuff, this has gotten pretty far from finding goodies in dumpsters. I once hauled an IBM 029 keypunch out of a dumpster, does that make up for it? It was at the company I worked for so there was no problem with permission, the guys who tossed it in really relished the experience (I guess they hadn't been big fans of that keypunch back when it was the company's only input device) so they were telling everyone, I flipped out of course but the same guys were nice enough to help me haul the thing out again. I've also had pretty good luck with the friendly neighborhood engineering school, especially because they're too cheap to get dumpsters for every building so a lot of the time stuff sits on loading docks for weeks before it gets hauled off, so you can just take it away (as long as you're sure it's scrap). I got a mostly-complete ASR33 and another terminal that way a couple of years ago, and a few other things (found a VK100 GIGI minus the PSU sitting by the curb with some other trash, outside RPI's linear accelerator a few years back). No need to get waist deep in transformer oil or anything yucky like that... John Wilson D Bit -------------- P.S. guess I spoke too soon about the drought of idiotic winter accidents being reported on our local TV news as "tragedies", apparently just last night some bozo in Utica went snowmobiling in the dark and ate a tree at high speed. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Feb 11 17:14:23 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000211132903.00892d20@mail.sfu.ca> from Kevin McQuiggin at "Feb 11, 2000 01:29:03 pm" Message-ID: <200002112314.RAA11355@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > Hi Gang: > > For your info, I'm in Canada, and shipped about 75 lbs of old pdp-11 boards > to the US this week without any problems. I indicated "Obsolete Computer > Parts" on the customs form. > > Looks like others may be having trouble, but none here on the west coast so > far. > > Fingers crossed, > > Kevin > > ========================================================== > Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department > E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 > Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca > One would think that mentioning the Vancouver Police Dept on the package might tend to give it a better then normal chance. -Lawrence LeMay From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 11 17:25:03 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) In-Reply-To: Re: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) (John Wilson) References: <018e01bf74d3$643cf060$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> <200002112125.WAA14087@mail2.siemens.de> <20000211181327.A3904@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <14500.39503.484124.582381@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 11, John Wilson wrote: > Anyway this is all just another attempt to idiot-proof the world. Instead of > just sitting down with their kids at a young age and explaining what sex > is and why it should be taken seriously, the lazy absentee parents think > the right thing is for their kids to be prevented at all costs from even > looking down in the bath tub, so that they have no idea what's really going > on, and it all comes as a total shock to them when they turn 18. Exactly. This government is very big on "protecting the stupid". Personally, I see it as "fighting Darwin"...natural selection can do the right thing if left to its own devices. Now, I don't have kids, so I'll not pretend to be an authority on the subject...but it seems logical to me that keeping them informed will go a lot farther than censoring the world for them. How many people here *really* learned about the "birds & bees" from their parents? Wow, this IS off-topic! -Dave McGuire From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Feb 11 16:50:37 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) In-Reply-To: <20000211181327.A3904@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:13:27 -0500) References: <018e01bf74d3$643cf060$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> <200002112125.WAA14087@mail2.siemens.de> <20000211181327.A3904@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000211225037.8502.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote about the "V Chip": > (no I don't know what the protocol is for labeling the show but I assume > it's some between-visible-scan-lines thing like closed captioning is), Yes. In fact, it uses line 21 just like captioning, but is coded as "enhanced data services" as per EIA 608. I think there's a newer standard that gives the specific V-chip details. I've been thinking about taking my closed caption decoder project, which was formerly used in a hack to automatically mute the audio any time O.J. was mentioned (the O.J. Mute-o-Matic, tm), and turn it into a device to automatically find programming with high violence or "mature audience" ratings. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 11 17:38:56 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) Message-ID: <003101bf74e9$2a8626a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, here in the Land of the Free, there's too much exercise of freedome not guaranteed in any document anywhere, and not tolerated in countries in Europe. It would be so much simpler if there were only one punishment for all violations of the law, as so many infractions are worthy of that ultimate punishment, DEATH. The only thing that seems to vary is WHOSE death. If every offense were met with immediate extermination, perhaps followed by a posthumous apology, a lot of people would behave differently, and nobody would park in my reserved space. In civilized countries, and NOT the U.S, it's common for citizens to turn in their neighbors for viloating the law simply because they observe a law being broken, and not because it has effect on their lives. The fact is that HERE, in the U.S. a person picking up the phone and notifying the police that there's a minor crime in progress within his view is considered, even by the police, worse than the offender. In the U.S. the observable lack of civilization is evidenced in the inability of people to inhabit a limited space as the Europeans have known for centuries to do. For us Americans, it's growing pains. Since there's no more land to inhabit, we're having to acquire some traits of civilized societies because we're having to live together with more and more strangers, often quite different form ourselves, racially, culturally, linguistically, etc. Over time we're going to have to move in the direction of the European model, which we know works, and rely more on common observance of law as opposed to trying to circumvent it. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Wilson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 11, 2000 4:18 PM Subject: Re: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) >On Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 10:25:38PM +0000, Hans Franke wrote: >> Let me get this straight - there is some software to be implemented >> on TVs and VCRs to disable them on a contend related base ? > >Right. But remember, we're still the Land of the Free, even though most >European countries give their citizens a lot more freedom. See, any time >the majority (or better yet, a well-funded and vocal minority) wants something >censored, it's not censorship -- the founding fathers were only trying to >protect our rights to say stuff that everyone agrees with, they hate >people with unpopular tastes or opinions. > >> Just >> assuming that there will be some kind of add on signal (at this point >> I'd like to get some technical information) suplying the level(s) >> of whatever (what classes are named ?), who is responsible to >> judge the content ? > >There, you've hit the biggest problem. My understanding is that it's just >a single scale -- from "not offensive" to "very offensive", according to >someone, somewhere. Since the government likes to see everything in terms >of strict threshholds (55 MPH = no problem, 56+ MPH = OK to lay down tack >strips and cause a fatal crash), they've convinced themselves that everyone >is offended by the same stuff. So some invisible authority gets to decide >what's offensive and what isn't and everything comes prepackaged (no I >don't know what the protocol is for labeling the show but I assume it's some >between-visible-scan-lines thing like closed captioning is), so you're just >supposed to set your TV for whatever age your kids are (they're all the same >age, right?) and leave it at that. > >> Also, are the TV stations also forced to supply the coding all the time ? > >I think it's supposed to be done per show. Like the current TV rating system, >where they put up a logo at the beginning of each show saying what its rating >is. Ridiculous... If I owned a TV network, I'd just set everything to "most >offensive" and forget about it. > >> BTW: I know there is violence on US-TV - but sex ? > >There's no *real* sex on US TV, but the bible thumpers are offended by even >the hint of it. They think that nudity is inherently wrong, and I just >*love* the illogic that you can say anything you want but you can't use >certain words to say it. Say the exact same thing another way and you're >OK though. > >Anyway this is all just another attempt to idiot-proof the world. Instead of >just sitting down with their kids at a young age and explaining what sex >is and why it should be taken seriously, the lazy absentee parents think >the right thing is for their kids to be prevented at all costs from even >looking down in the bath tub, so that they have no idea what's really going >on, and it all comes as a total shock to them when they turn 18. > >People are unbelievably repressed in this country though. I thought my parents >did a pretty good job of explaining everything, but they left some important >stuff out, like the fact that sex is fun! What a mind-bender, hearing about >neighbors etc. that had gotten pregnant "by accident", I couldn't possibly >imagine how people would pull off such a complicated disgusting procedure >without meaning to. Makes a whole lot more sense now! > >> If the judgement is >> done by the producer, someone of a 'nude acceping' show may have a >> different feeling about the 'sex rating' then the next guy who airs >> some TV church stuff. > >Exactly! Personally, I'm seriously, DEEPLY offended by anything to do with >organized religion, yet as far as the government is concerned that stuff >is all strictly G-rated. So I'll never convince my TV to automatically >skip those shows. I have no problem with nudity though, and if I had kids >I'd want them to see plenty of it too, so that the novelty would wear off >and they wouldn't go into total cranial shutdown the way most Americans do >when they see it (since we're strongly conditioned to think that the only >time anyone shows any skin is when they're about to have sex with you, so >we act like idiots when we see people naked in other contexts). But that's >the *main* thing the government wants to stop us from seeing. > >Anyway, I'm not saying the government is trying to gradually eat away at our >rights and subtly turn the USA into a totalitarian state so slowly that no >one even notices. But if they WERE trying to do that, they'd go about it >exactly this way! > >Well anyway, I was pissed off the *last* time the gov't forced everyone to >pay for an unneeded feature in their TVs, which was closed captioning, but >now I use it all the time! It's really handy when the actors are mumbling, >or when they're talking in funny voices for no apparent reason (but the >caption explains that they're quoting from a 1930s movie I never saw), or >when my wife falls asleep but I want to keep watching. > >Yech, sorry about all this OT stuff, this has gotten pretty far from finding >goodies in dumpsters. I once hauled an IBM 029 keypunch out of a dumpster, >does that make up for it? It was at the company I worked for so there was >no problem with permission, the guys who tossed it in really relished the >experience (I guess they hadn't been big fans of that keypunch back when it >was the company's only input device) so they were telling everyone, I flipped >out of course but the same guys were nice enough to help me haul the thing out >again. > >I've also had pretty good luck with the friendly neighborhood engineering >school, especially because they're too cheap to get dumpsters for every >building so a lot of the time stuff sits on loading docks for weeks before >it gets hauled off, so you can just take it away (as long as you're sure >it's scrap). I got a mostly-complete ASR33 and another terminal that way a >couple of years ago, and a few other things (found a VK100 GIGI minus the PSU >sitting by the curb with some other trash, outside RPI's linear accelerator >a few years back). No need to get waist deep in transformer oil or anything >yucky like that... > >John Wilson >D Bit >-------------- >P.S. guess I spoke too soon about the drought of idiotic winter accidents >being reported on our local TV news as "tragedies", apparently just last night >some bozo in Utica went snowmobiling in the dark and ate a tree at high speed. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 19:00:42 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. Message-ID: <20000212010042.4348.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Ford wrote: > >The last few times I sent computer/related to Canada I marked the parcels > >"obsolete computer or printer parts-gift" and the value as a couple dollars. > >I normally send them UPS rather than USPS as I think much of the problem is > >with... > > UPS is notorious for charging abitrary and high broker fees, so ALL of my > Canadian customs demand using another carrier, preferably USPS. My first experience with this was a $120 item I bought for my Amiga from a small company in Vancouver. I get this call from so-and-so brokers who want $85 to process my paperwork. I was outraged. I told them in no uncertain terms that they would *never* extort that kind of blood money from me for their "services" and to send the shipment back. I did receive my hardware a couple of weeks later by post with no duty and no problems. My employer at the time used to ship magtapes to Canadian customers via UPS with the proper customs paperwork attached. We never had any complaints, but we knew how to fill out the forms properly. The moral of the story is to *never* send items across the border UPS without any customs paperwork. The recipient will be saddled with the consequences. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Feb 11 20:10:49 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. In-Reply-To: <200002112314.RAA11355@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Feb 11, 2000 05:14:23 PM Message-ID: <200002120210.SAA10471@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi: > One would think that mentioning the Vancouver Police Dept on the > package might tend to give it a better then normal chance. Those days are definitely gone. Maybe 20 years ago, but no chance these days. Society is evolving and I'm personally happier with a fairer arrangement where all folks are demonstrably treated the same. I send all this stuff personally (i.e. not via official channels) and would _never_ consider trying for any sort of advantage due to my current line of work! Unfortunately television and the movie industry insist on portraying boatanchor characters that are as far from current policing as vacuum tube computers are from modern VLSI machines. Book-'em Dano, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Feb 11 20:16:59 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Feb 11, 2000 01:06:09 PM Message-ID: <200002120216.SAA11859@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Allison: Use nslookup. "nslookup (IP address)". No parentheses. nslookup is a Unix utility, run it at the shell prompt. There will likely be versions available for other systems as well. Alternatively, visit the NIC (www.internic.net) and you can run the IP address through their database there. Kevin > > > I have this URL and I'd like to find their netaddress n.n.n.n, how? > > ******http://opt-inbroadcasts.net/remove/remove4.html > Apparently this is a spam gatherer as I got mail with this as the way > to get on their remove list. I suspect it's really a collect list. > > Also while looking around (with arp) I have a few address I don't know > and would like to translate that to a url or domain name. > > Allison > > > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Feb 11 20:44:49 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? Message-ID: <200002120244.VAA01024@world.std.com> Thanks everyone. I'm getting spammed and it's apparently from the opt-in thing that I'd never opt-into! Any solid suggestion how to shut this down. I firmly believe the "remove" in these is fake or worse address validation. I wonder if the whole remove this is bogus. Allison For example... *************************************************************************** You received this copy as a subscriber to our opt-in email list. If you no longer wish to receive solicitations simply unsubscribe by clicking here: http://www.postmasternetwork.net/remove Unsubscribe ............................................................................ That's right. This week more.com is offering a 6-pack of Ultra Slim Fast for $1 and our ever-popular $1 mystery item. **************************************************************************** From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Feb 11 21:02:53 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? In-Reply-To: <200002120244.VAA01024@world.std.com> Message-ID: In my experience, the best course of action is simply to filter it out. Responses do indeed verify that your address is valid; I once made the mistake of doing just that, and it took about a week before I was getting 10x the amount of spam I had been previously. The best proactive method of dealing with it is to report the forward the message, with all the headers, to either spam@originatingdomain.com or abuse@originatingdomain.com. I have to admit that I'm usually too lazy to do this; the spam filters on the company's mail server do a good enough job that I might get 2-3 spam messages per day at the most (as compared to 10-15 on my old earthlink account). Cheers, Aaron On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Allison J Parent wrote: > > Thanks everyone. > > I'm getting spammed and it's apparently from the opt-in thing that I'd > never opt-into! > > Any solid suggestion how to shut this down. I firmly believe the "remove" > in these is fake or worse address validation. I wonder if the whole > remove this is bogus. > > Allison > > For example... > *************************************************************************** > You received this copy as a subscriber to our opt-in email list. > If you no longer wish to receive solicitations simply unsubscribe by > clicking here: http://www.postmasternetwork.net/remove > Unsubscribe > ............................................................................ > > That's right. > > This week more.com is offering a 6-pack of Ultra Slim Fast for $1 and > our ever-popular $1 mystery item. > > **************************************************************************** > From whdawson at mlynk.com Fri Feb 11 21:15:41 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: Inferno IF/65 Development System II for 65XX microprocessors Message-ID: <001401bf7507$717cfa20$b0e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Hello group, Here I am again, looking for information on something that, more than likely, not a single person on this list will have any information whatsoever. At least this item isn't on eBay. The last thing on eBay that I asked for information on somehow managed to attract all sorts of interest and bids after I posted questions looking for some information on it (I had the opening and only bid for quite some time). My toes still hurt from that one. I should have known, since it had the letters D-E-C on it. BTW, who is pdp.org? OK, now that has been expressed, what I have here is an Infotron IF/65 Development System II. It appears to connect via RS-232 to a dumb terminal for its output of such things as address and data, and perhaps input of some parameters such as uP clock rate; baud rate is selectable from a thumbwheel. This system also appears to have the capability of single stepping the program contained in the device in the ZIF. It has a 28 pin ZIF socket for the targets EPROM/PROM/ROM. There is a standard ribbon cable that connects to a pod, and the pod has a braided ribbon cable that terminates at a 40 pin dip header, most likely to attach to the target in place of the uP. Trap conditions are selectable via four 0 to F thumbwheels, and conditions to be triggered on can be selected as memory data read, memory data written, and/or op-code. Any information would be greatly appreciated, a source of a manual or instructions for use would be fantastic. For those in this group that maybe can help and would like a photo sent as an email attachment, please post your request to the group, on thread, and I'll email the photo off-list. Or just go to http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/Pics/infotron.gif Which brings up another point. If all this verbiage is being collected for posterity, and a picture is worth a thousand words, would it be a good idea to have a photo archive indexed by thread also? I do realize that uncompressed pictures can take up a lot of disk space, and a size limit would have to be implemented. However, as I see the confusion and misunderstanding some of the time among ourselves, a picture would aid tremendously in avoiding this situation. Just imagine how much it will help the denizens of the future in coping with the many objects discussed herein. I understand there are many of you who are limited to text reception and transmittal, but what about the rest of us? With all the recent discussion about the time it takes to read and reply to this email if it is not properly formatted, etc. being such an issue when the list came back up (BTW, thanks Jay), I'm surprised no one brought up all the time it takes to describe things when a simple picture would suffice. Thanks, Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Feb 11 21:39:12 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:58 2005 Subject: Going totaly OT (was: Dumpster stories!) References: <20000210165917.A763@dbit.dbit.com> <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> <4.1.20000211164301.00b5f230@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <00c901bf750a$c21a75e0$d481a7ca@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Fandt" To: Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 8:15 AM Subject: Re: Going totaly OT (was: Dumpster stories!) > Upon the date 09:11 PM 2/11/00 +0001, Hans Franke said something like: > Anybody more articulate than me explain to the non-US folks this device > used to censor certain TV programming from children? We have them here too. But we call them parents. :^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College. geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From whdawson at mlynk.com Fri Feb 11 21:40:30 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: FW: Infotron IF/65 Development System II for 65XX microprocessors Message-ID: <001c01bf750a$e8a03740$b0e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Sorry about the title on the previous post. Darn spell checker gets a little carried away sometimes. How it got Inferno from Infotron is something only Gates and Co. can answer. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Dawson [mailto:whdawson@mlynk.com] Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 10:16 PM To: Classiccmp@Classiccmp. Org Subject: Inferno IF/65 Development System II for 65XX microprocessors Hello group, Here I am again, looking for information on something that, more than likely, not a single person on this list will have any information whatsoever. At least this item isn't on eBay. The last thing on eBay that I asked for information on somehow managed to attract all sorts of interest and bids after I posted questions looking for some information on it (I had the opening and only bid for quite some time). My toes still hurt from that one. I should have known, since it had the letters D-E-C on it. BTW, who is pdp.org? OK, now that has been expressed, what I have here is an Infotron IF/65 Development System II. It appears to connect via RS-232 to a dumb terminal for its output of such things as address and data, and perhaps input of some parameters such as uP clock rate; baud rate is selectable from a thumbwheel. This system also appears to have the capability of single stepping the program contained in the device in the ZIF. It has a 28 pin ZIF socket for the targets EPROM/PROM/ROM. There is a standard ribbon cable that connects to a pod, and the pod has a braided ribbon cable that terminates at a 40 pin dip header, most likely to attach to the target in place of the uP. Trap conditions are selectable via four 0 to F thumbwheels, and conditions to be triggered on can be selected as memory data read, memory data written, and/or op-code. Any information would be greatly appreciated, a source of a manual or instructions for use would be fantastic. For those in this group that maybe can help and would like a photo sent as an email attachment, please post your request to the group, on thread, and I'll email the photo off-list. Or just go to http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/Pics/infotron.gif Which brings up another point. If all this verbiage is being collected for posterity, and a picture is worth a thousand words, would it be a good idea to have a photo archive indexed by thread also? I do realize that uncompressed pictures can take up a lot of disk space, and a size limit would have to be implemented. However, as I see the confusion and misunderstanding some of the time among ourselves, a picture would aid tremendously in avoiding this situation. Just imagine how much it will help the denizens of the future in coping with the many objects discussed herein. I understand there are many of you who are limited to text reception and transmittal, but what about the rest of us? With all the recent discussion about the time it takes to read and reply to this email if it is not properly formatted, etc. being such an issue when the list came back up (BTW, thanks Jay), I'm surprised no one brought up all the time it takes to describe things when a simple picture would suffice. Thanks, Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri Feb 11 22:18:30 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: OT Re: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is an excellent resource in abuse.net http://www.abuse.net I believe it is run by the acting moderator of comp.dcom.telecom A brief excerpt from its FAQ HOW DOES ABUSE.NET WORK ? Once you've registered, when you send a message to an address at abuse.net, the system here automatically re-mails your message to the best reporting address(es) we know for the domain you want to send to. If, say, you wanted to send mail to example.com, the address would be example.com@abuse.net. It's up to you to figure out what the appropriate domain is. See http://spam.abuse.net/others/sites.html for some links to mail analysis advice. For many domains the contact address is postmaster@, for some it's abuse@, for some it's something else. Some particularly unpleasant domains ignore all their mail; when we're aware of that we use the address for their next-level-up provider. * Send a copy of the entire abusive message, including all of the header lines, particularly the "Received:" lines. (Many mail programs including Pine and Eudora don't show or send all the headers unless you specifically tell them to.) If the message is very long, you can cut off the message in the middle, so long as you're sure you're sending all the headers. * Be polite and to the point. * Don't make any threats unless you intend to carry them out. In particular, don't threaten people under the junk fax law (47 USC 227) unless you actually plan to take them to small claims court; even responsible ISPs are really tired of this vacuous threat. On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > In my experience, the best course of action is simply to filter it out. > Responses do indeed verify that your address is valid; I once made the > mistake of doing just that, and it took about a week before I was getting > 10x the amount of spam I had been previously. > > The best proactive method of dealing with it is to report the forward the > message, with all the headers, to either spam@originatingdomain.com or > abuse@originatingdomain.com. I have to admit that I'm usually too lazy to > do this; the spam filters on the company's mail server do a good enough > job that I might get 2-3 spam messages per day at the most (as compared to > 10-15 on my old earthlink account). > > Cheers, > > Aaron > > On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > > > Thanks everyone. > > > > I'm getting spammed and it's apparently from the opt-in thing that I'd > > never opt-into! > > > > Any solid suggestion how to shut this down. I firmly believe the "remove" > > in these is fake or worse address validation. I wonder if the whole > > remove this is bogus. > > > > Allison From djenner at halcyon.com Fri Feb 11 22:36:28 2000 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? References: <200002120244.VAA01024@world.std.com> Message-ID: <38A4E34C.24FEC689@halcyon.com> It's been mentioned before, but try http://www.spamcop.net. If you report the SPAM, a appropriate administrator can shut down the violator. Using it requires a browser, however, and every time I suggest something that benefits browser users, the remarks fly that everyone in this group uses punch cards, a collator, and a keypunch to read/write this group! So your mileage may vary. Dave Allison J Parent wrote: > > Thanks everyone. > > I'm getting spammed and it's apparently from the opt-in thing that I'd > never opt-into! > > Any solid suggestion how to shut this down. I firmly believe the "remove" > in these is fake or worse address validation. I wonder if the whole > remove this is bogus. > > Allison > > For example... > *************************************************************************** > You received this copy as a subscriber to our opt-in email list. > If you no longer wish to receive solicitations simply unsubscribe by > clicking here: http://www.postmasternetwork.net/remove > Unsubscribe > ............................................................................ > > That's right. > > This week more.com is offering a 6-pack of Ultra Slim Fast for $1 and > our ever-popular $1 mystery item. > > **************************************************************************** From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Feb 11 22:50:56 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) In-Reply-To: <20000211225037.8502.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 10:50:37PM -0000 References: <018e01bf74d3$643cf060$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> <200002112125.WAA14087@mail2.siemens.de> <20000211181327.A3904@dbit.dbit.com> <20000211225037.8502.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000211235056.A4835@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 10:50:37PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > I've been thinking about taking my closed caption decoder project, which > was formerly used in a hack to automatically mute the audio any time > O.J. was mentioned (the O.J. Mute-o-Matic, tm), and turn it into a device > to automatically find programming with high violence or "mature audience" > ratings. I can't *believe* what a great idea that is!!!! I'll sure buy one! Y'know, I'll bet I'm not the only one who'd be willing to pay substantially extra for a TV (or cable/satellite converter box) that had this scan feature built in. It would serve the censors right! My college roommates and I used to talk about projects like this, but the idea we tossed around involved just searching for a high percentage of "flesh tones" (so it would have been racist no matter whose flesh it was tuned for), so it would have been very prone to error. As it was we had to read through the monthly "skin guide" from the cable company, and establish a "SkinCon" rating for a particular night of TV (5 = nothing on, or worse yet, Grace Jones in Vamp, 4 and down meant some decent R-rated stuff, to get below 3 you have to cheat and rent a video), and performed regular "skin scans" of the premium movie channels to see if any interesting scenes were on right now. OK maybe we were a tad obsessed... John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Feb 11 22:54:50 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) In-Reply-To: <14500.39503.484124.582381@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 06:25:03PM -0500 References: <018e01bf74d3$643cf060$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> <200002112125.WAA14087@mail2.siemens.de> <20000211181327.A3904@dbit.dbit.com> <14500.39503.484124.582381@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000211235450.B4835@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 06:25:03PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > Now, I don't have kids, so I'll not pretend to be an authority on > the subject...but it seems logical to me that keeping them informed > will go a lot farther than censoring the world for them. I think those of us without kids still get a lot of partial credit from having *been* kids at some point. > How many people here *really* learned about the "birds & bees" from > their parents? Actually my dad told us a *lot* of stuff at a very young age (but in his freakish English way -- WHO uses the word "breed" when talking about humans?!), but it was pretty funny how by the time we kids hit Sex Ed in 5th grade (of course we'd discovered Our Bodies Our Selves in the school library years earlier), we knew way more about birth control than our parents did. They thought it was pretty funny too... John Wilson D Bit From mbg at world.std.com Fri Feb 11 23:03:39 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) References: <018e01bf74d3$643cf060$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> <200002112125.WAA14087@mail2.siemens.de> <20000211181327.A3904@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <200002120503.AAA10696@world.std.com> >> Anyway this is all just another attempt to idiot-proof the world. >> Instead of > Exactly. This government is very big on "protecting the stupid". >Personally, I see it as "fighting Darwin"...natural selection can do >the right thing if left to its own devices. Well, I do believe I've seen the absolute height of the expectation of stupidity... There is a car commercial here in the states in which a rock band is playing on stage... a car drives onto the stage, and then out into the mosh pit area, apparently being supported by the concert attendees... At the bottom of the screen are the words (paraphrased): "Do not drive on people" Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sat Feb 12 00:06:47 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) In-Reply-To: <200002120503.AAA10696@world.std.com> from Megan at "Feb 12, 2000 00:03:39 am" Message-ID: <20000212060653Z433937-14195+269@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > >> Anyway this is all just another attempt to idiot-proof the world. > >> Instead of > > > Exactly. This government is very big on "protecting the stupid". > >Personally, I see it as "fighting Darwin"...natural selection can do > >the right thing if left to its own devices. > > Well, I do believe I've seen the absolute height of the expectation > of stupidity... > > There is a car commercial here in the states in which a rock band is > playing on stage... a car drives onto the stage, and then out into > the mosh pit area, apparently being supported by the concert > attendees... > > At the bottom of the screen are the words (paraphrased): > > "Do not drive on people" > We have that commercial up here too, but without the warning label. They must figure that we are either smarter here, or have dumber lawyers (both would be nice :-)). -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Feb 11 23:22:54 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <000a01bf7519$3791d6c0$6820d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 8:58 PM Subject: RE: RX01 Bootstrap Loader >>Like trying to find a needle in a haystack..... > >Not all *that* hard! > It actually was as I have all the material before '78. I thought it might be in the PDP-11/05 manual but I could not get at it.. and pulling boxes of RT11 would be a lot more headache than asking someone here. >>Would anyone know which handbook/manual the RX01 bootstrap loader is in? > >The RT-11 Installation manual is one place, the RX11 manual is another, >any of the "Microcomputer Interfaces" books that has the RXV11, ... > I found that in my own collection :-) . I just saw the abereviated version. >>I need to toggle in the RX01 bootstrap into a PDP-11/20 with 4K config. > >You could just, say, go to > > ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/bootstrap s/ > >and fetch "rx01_boot.txt". > I saw that book was 1980. I checked 1976,78, peripheral handbooks.. no luck.. Processor handbooks also didn't help too much. I knew I saw it somewhere (prob. 11/05) but was not sure. Thanks for the help. >What are you going to try to boot in just 4K, BTW? I'm scratching my >head to figure out if even RT-11 V2 fit in that small a space... > I don't believe it will . Neither will RT11 V1. DOS/BATCH requires a minimum of 8K too! Even though RT11 only uses up 2K core it still won't load without 8K minimum. The only "OS" that supports 4K is "PTS-11". I needed to boot RX01s as that is a lot easier to run diagnostics across a bunch of 11/20s quickly... beats paper tape!. I have some old diagnostic disks/diagnostic code on RX01s for the 11/20. Most of the PDP-11/20s I am restoring have serial numbers under 400 so most manufactured at that time were configured with paper tape and 4K core. Most of the 11/20s I got were configured with paper tape/4k core. The *newer* ones have DECTape. I am testing all the PDP-11/20s after a basic rebuild with 4K core.. I will add more MM11-Es depending on what is requested. Due to the instruction set incompatibilities between the 11/20 and other 11s, will they even run RT11 V30B with 8K core? I expect most will probably just want PTS-11 and DOS/BATCH with an 8K core system. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > > From aek at spies.com Sat Feb 12 01:20:43 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <200002120720.XAA14990@spies.com> "I needed to boot RX01s as that is a lot easier to run diagnostics across a bunch of 11/20s quickly... beats paper tape!." Will DXDP run in 4k? From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Feb 12 05:49:44 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) References: <003101bf74e9$2a8626a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <000501bf754f$417f6f40$1224fea9@dymesip> I was under the impression that this list is about Vintage Computers rather than judicial politics ........... Sipke de Wal (A European Citizen that also does not agree fully with the aforementioned statements about Europe.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 12:38 AM Subject: Re: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) > Well, here in the Land of the Free, there's too much exercise of freedome > not guaranteed in any document anywhere, and not tolerated in countries in > Europe. It would be so much simpler if there were only one punishment for > all violations of the law, as so many infractions are worthy of that > ultimate punishment, DEATH. The only thing that seems to vary is WHOSE > death. If every offense were met with immediate extermination, perhaps > followed by a posthumous apology, a lot of people would behave differently, > and nobody would park in my reserved space. > > In civilized countries, and NOT the U.S, it's common for citizens to turn in > their neighbors for viloating the law simply because they observe a law > being broken, and not because it has effect on their lives. The fact is > that HERE, in the U.S. a person picking up the phone and notifying the > police that there's a minor crime in progress within his view is considered, > even by the police, worse than the offender. > > In the U.S. the observable lack of civilization is evidenced in the > inability of people to inhabit a limited space as the Europeans have known > for centuries to do. For us Americans, it's growing pains. Since there's > no more land to inhabit, we're having to acquire some traits of civilized > societies because we're having to live together with more and more > strangers, often quite different form ourselves, racially, culturally, > linguistically, etc. > > Over time we're going to have to move in the direction of the European > model, which we know works, and rely more on common observance of law as > opposed to trying to circumvent it. > > Dick > -----Original Message----- > From: John Wilson > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Friday, February 11, 2000 4:18 PM > Subject: Re: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) > > > >On Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 10:25:38PM +0000, Hans Franke wrote: > >> Let me get this straight - there is some software to be implemented > >> on TVs and VCRs to disable them on a contend related base ? > > > >Right. But remember, we're still the Land of the Free, even though most > >European countries give their citizens a lot more freedom. See, any time > >the majority (or better yet, a well-funded and vocal minority) wants > something > >censored, it's not censorship -- the founding fathers were only trying to > >protect our rights to say stuff that everyone agrees with, they hate > >people with unpopular tastes or opinions. > > > >> Just > >> assuming that there will be some kind of add on signal (at this point > >> I'd like to get some technical information) suplying the level(s) > >> of whatever (what classes are named ?), who is responsible to > >> judge the content ? > > > >There, you've hit the biggest problem. My understanding is that it's just > >a single scale -- from "not offensive" to "very offensive", according to > >someone, somewhere. Since the government likes to see everything in terms > >of strict threshholds (55 MPH = no problem, 56+ MPH = OK to lay down tack > >strips and cause a fatal crash), they've convinced themselves that everyone > >is offended by the same stuff. So some invisible authority gets to decide > >what's offensive and what isn't and everything comes prepackaged (no I > >don't know what the protocol is for labeling the show but I assume it's > some > >between-visible-scan-lines thing like closed captioning is), so you're just > >supposed to set your TV for whatever age your kids are (they're all the > same > >age, right?) and leave it at that. > > > >> Also, are the TV stations also forced to supply the coding all the time ? > > > >I think it's supposed to be done per show. Like the current TV rating > system, > >where they put up a logo at the beginning of each show saying what its > rating > >is. Ridiculous... If I owned a TV network, I'd just set everything to > "most > >offensive" and forget about it. > > > >> BTW: I know there is violence on US-TV - but sex ? > > > >There's no *real* sex on US TV, but the bible thumpers are offended by even > >the hint of it. They think that nudity is inherently wrong, and I just > >*love* the illogic that you can say anything you want but you can't use > >certain words to say it. Say the exact same thing another way and you're > >OK though. > > > >Anyway this is all just another attempt to idiot-proof the world. Instead > of > >just sitting down with their kids at a young age and explaining what sex > >is and why it should be taken seriously, the lazy absentee parents think > >the right thing is for their kids to be prevented at all costs from even > >looking down in the bath tub, so that they have no idea what's really going > >on, and it all comes as a total shock to them when they turn 18. > > > >People are unbelievably repressed in this country though. I thought my > parents > >did a pretty good job of explaining everything, but they left some > important > >stuff out, like the fact that sex is fun! What a mind-bender, hearing > about > >neighbors etc. that had gotten pregnant "by accident", I couldn't possibly > >imagine how people would pull off such a complicated disgusting procedure > >without meaning to. Makes a whole lot more sense now! > > > >> If the judgement is > >> done by the producer, someone of a 'nude acceping' show may have a > >> different feeling about the 'sex rating' then the next guy who airs > >> some TV church stuff. > > > >Exactly! Personally, I'm seriously, DEEPLY offended by anything to do with > >organized religion, yet as far as the government is concerned that stuff > >is all strictly G-rated. So I'll never convince my TV to automatically > >skip those shows. I have no problem with nudity though, and if I had kids > >I'd want them to see plenty of it too, so that the novelty would wear off > >and they wouldn't go into total cranial shutdown the way most Americans do > >when they see it (since we're strongly conditioned to think that the only > >time anyone shows any skin is when they're about to have sex with you, so > >we act like idiots when we see people naked in other contexts). But that's > >the *main* thing the government wants to stop us from seeing. > > > >Anyway, I'm not saying the government is trying to gradually eat away at > our > >rights and subtly turn the USA into a totalitarian state so slowly that no > >one even notices. But if they WERE trying to do that, they'd go about it > >exactly this way! > > > >Well anyway, I was pissed off the *last* time the gov't forced everyone to > >pay for an unneeded feature in their TVs, which was closed captioning, but > >now I use it all the time! It's really handy when the actors are mumbling, > >or when they're talking in funny voices for no apparent reason (but the > >caption explains that they're quoting from a 1930s movie I never saw), or > >when my wife falls asleep but I want to keep watching. > > > >Yech, sorry about all this OT stuff, this has gotten pretty far from > finding > >goodies in dumpsters. I once hauled an IBM 029 keypunch out of a dumpster, > >does that make up for it? It was at the company I worked for so there was > >no problem with permission, the guys who tossed it in really relished the > >experience (I guess they hadn't been big fans of that keypunch back when it > >was the company's only input device) so they were telling everyone, I > flipped > >out of course but the same guys were nice enough to help me haul the thing > out > >again. > > > >I've also had pretty good luck with the friendly neighborhood engineering > >school, especially because they're too cheap to get dumpsters for every > >building so a lot of the time stuff sits on loading docks for weeks before > >it gets hauled off, so you can just take it away (as long as you're sure > >it's scrap). I got a mostly-complete ASR33 and another terminal that way a > >couple of years ago, and a few other things (found a VK100 GIGI minus the > PSU > >sitting by the curb with some other trash, outside RPI's linear accelerator > >a few years back). No need to get waist deep in transformer oil or > anything > >yucky like that... > > > >John Wilson > >D Bit > >-------------- > >P.S. guess I spoke too soon about the drought of idiotic winter accidents > >being reported on our local TV news as "tragedies", apparently just last > night > >some bozo in Utica went snowmobiling in the dark and ate a tree at high > speed. > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Feb 12 10:05:40 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <000212110540.25601686@trailing-edge.com> >Due to the instruction set incompatibilities between the 11/20 and other >11s, will they even run RT11 V30B with 8K core? RT11 V03B ought to be OK, as long as you have enough memory. I know that 12K words core is enough (I have V03B on an 11/04 with 12K core), I suspect it will fit in 10 or 8K. If you try to run RT-11 5.5 or 5.6 on an 11/20, you'll get some complaint because EIS instructions found their way into a few utilities and drivers. This has been rectified for 5.7; see the 5.7 release notes for details. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Feb 12 11:16:23 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? Message-ID: <200002121716.MAA10428@world.std.com> -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, February 12, 2000 11:07 AM Subject: Re: RX01 Bootstrap Loader >>Due to the instruction set incompatibilities between the 11/20 and other >>11s, will they even run RT11 V30B with 8K core? > >RT11 V03B ought to be OK, as long as you have enough memory. I know that >12K words core is enough (I have V03B on an 11/04 with 12K core), I suspect >it will fit in 10 or 8K. The monitor only uses 2K core and expects 8. (SJ). > >If you try to run RT-11 5.5 or 5.6 on an 11/20, you'll get some complaint >because EIS instructions found their way into a few utilities and drivers. >This has been rectified for 5.7; see the 5.7 release notes for details. > I am more concerned about the incompatibilities in the basic instruction set. I am going to try boot RT11 V3B. If not, I'll try plain ver 3, then maybe 2. I know DEC discontinued the 11/20 in '73 which was during the initial development of the OS's. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Feb 12 12:38:18 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader In-Reply-To: <002001bf7578$7fae06e0$9a29d1d8@default>; from dylanb@sympatico.ca on Sat, Feb 12, 2000 at 11:44:58AM -0500 References: <002001bf7578$7fae06e0$9a29d1d8@default> Message-ID: <20000212133818.A6383@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Feb 12, 2000 at 11:44:58AM -0500, John B wrote: > I am more concerned about the incompatibilities in the basic instruction > set. Like what? If you mean the RTI/RTT thing and the thing about SWAB and the V bit (I hope I have those right), it's *really* unlikely that any OS code depends on either of those. The MOV SP,-(SP) thing shows up in other models so the OSes should know better than to care about that (although IIRC the DECUS DOS/BATCH BASIC actually *needs* that piece of 11/20 behavior and won't run on some of the other early models), and similarly the /04 and /05 are missing SOB too so the small-machine OSes don't use that either. John Wilson D Bit From mrdos at swbell.net Sat Feb 12 15:38:07 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe Message-ID: <000901bf75a1$7acb6e00$49733ed8@compaq> I recently acquired a Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe, printer, and numerous terminals. I was wondering if anyone had any software, documentation, or general knowledge of it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You, Owen Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000212/aaaac60f/attachment.html From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 12 16:30:18 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: [CC] Looking for a 68k Macintosh software archive. Message-ID: <20000212223018.58549.qmail@hotmail.com> Can anybody direct me to one (or a few) good websites or ftp boards that have software for 68k-based Macs (one that has Smooth Talker, & a Stylewriter II driver would be nice). ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, Double FDD, GeoRam 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Feb 12 17:06:52 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: CDC 9448 "Phoenix" Spares Kit Message-ID: <20000212.170654.267.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: I have a bunch of stuf that (more or less) makes up a spares kit for the the CDC 9448. Stuff includes: I/O Circuit Card CNTL/MUX Card Servo Coarse Board Servo Fine Board Read/Write Card Extender Board 3 R/W Heads Maintainence Manual (including schematics). As far as I can tell, all of this stuff is new, except for maybe one of the R/W heads. I can't use it, maybe someone here can. If there's any interest in this, please contact me privately. Thanks. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 12 18:13:59 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe In-Reply-To: <000901bf75a1$7acb6e00$49733ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000212191359.2d87eb5c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Owen, I don't know anything about Honeywells but I just found two Honeywell 316s in a scrap yard here in Florida. They look complete but they're just the computers. They're about 18" w x 22" d x 14" h. They WERE mounted in a rack but are now sitting on a pallet. There are also two large rack mount Pertec disk drives sitting on the same pallet. I don't know if they came out of the same systems as the Honeywells or not. No sign of cables, software, discs, docs or anything else from the system except a Teletype model 32 sitting on the other side of the yard. I don't know if it may have been part of the systems or not. Joe At 03:38 PM 2/12/00 -0600, you wrote: >I recently acquired a Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe, printer, and numerous terminals. I was wondering if anyone had any software, documentation, or general knowledge of it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > >Thank You, >Owen Robertson > >Attachment Converted: "C:\ATTACH\Honeywe2.htm" > From mtapley at swri.edu Sat Feb 12 17:18:40 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: <200002122232.QAA24936@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: All, At the Texas Thrift Store in San Antonio, loop 410 just south of Ingram, I found: AT&T 6300 and Xerox box - these two looked identical except different color schemes. Both $6.95, "as-is" and the Xerox says "works". Xerox claimed to be made in Italy, I didn't check AT&T. Apple IIGS - mmmm...$13.95? I didn't write it down. "as-is" Franklin Ace 100? - ... $6.95?? "as-is". All boxes were seperated from monitors, keyboards, cables, manuals, software - bare boxes only. I did not spot any such peripherals which looked at all related to any of the above, but didn't look very hard. If anyone is interested, email me offline and I'll buy, pack, ship, and let you know how much it cost to do all three. Hopefully, you'll then send me a check for that amount... - Mark PS are announcements like this of value to anyone? Should I continue them? Move them to the auction-announce list? Comments offline preferred, online OK if they are of general interest. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 12 18:07:35 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. (Mark Tapley) References: <200002122232.QAA24936@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <14501.62919.833680.271750@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 12, Mark Tapley wrote: > AT&T 6300 and Xerox box - these two looked identical except different > color schemes. Both $6.95, "as-is" and the Xerox says "works". Xerox > claimed to be made in Italy, I didn't check AT&T. The AT&T 6300 was actually made by Olivetti, in Italy... Be aware that 6300s use proprietary (and very nice, IMO) monitors. -Dave McGuire From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Feb 12 18:18:11 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: HP 4972A LAN Protocol Analyser Message-ID: <20000212181811.I18249@mrbill.net> Anybody know anything about a HP 4972A LAN Protocol Analyser? Where I can find the OS software? manuals? etc? Is this machine still worth anything? Thanks.. (copyright date on the OS it boots is '90, so hey, it fits the ten-year rule..) Bill -- +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@pdp11.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | | http://www.sunhelp.org | http://www.pdp11.org | http://www.mrbill.net | +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 12 18:32:53 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: HP 4972A LAN Protocol Analyser In-Reply-To: HP 4972A LAN Protocol Analyser (Bill Bradford) References: <20000212181811.I18249@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <14501.64437.394039.140185@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 12, Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody know anything about a HP 4972A LAN Protocol Analyser? > Where I can find the OS software? manuals? etc? Is this > machine still worth anything? > > Thanks.. (copyright date on the OS it boots is '90, so hey, it > fits the ten-year rule..) I have one, I use it regularly, and I love it. Yes it's ten years old...but it's a piece of test equipment, not a computer, so it's only getting "a little" old at this point. Newer units are a bit more flashy and flexible, but those newer units also tend to be Windows PC laptops running network analyzer software that some college schmuck threw together in Visual Basic...and thus tend to blow up a lot. The HP4972 isn't a Windows PC in disguise...it's an honest piece of application-specific- engineered test equipment that does its job very well. I have the documentation, and I'd be willing to loan it to you. I also (obviously) have the software...I'm not sure how to copy it out of the machine, but if we can figure that out, I'll help you get yours running. FYI they tend to go for anywhere between $500-$1000 (working) on the surplus market, or up to about $2500 in the "commercial" used test equipment market. -Dave McGuire From aek at spies.com Sat Feb 12 18:37:20 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe Message-ID: <200002130037.QAA24306@spies.com> "I don't know anything about Honeywells but I just found two Honeywell 316s in a scrap yard here in Florida." John B knows quite a bit about these. I have docs for the 516 series mostly. Are the Pertec drives front or top loading? Any sign of a Pertec disc formatter box? docs (i know.. ha ha..) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 12 18:41:57 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000212191359.2d87eb5c@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <000901bf75a1$7acb6e00$49733ed8@compaq> Message-ID: Joe, > I don't know anything about Honeywells but I just found two Honeywell >316s in a scrap yard here in Florida. They look complete but they're just I hope you rescued them. As much as it pains me to admit it Honeywell computers are worth rescueing as there aren't a lot out there. I suspect most have been scraped already, especially ones that the Government had. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Feb 12 18:53:27 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader References: <000212110540.25601686@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <38A60087.463E68C1@idirect.com> >CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Due to the instruction set incompatibilities between the 11/20 and other > >11s, will they even run RT11 V30B with 8K core? > RT11 V03B ought to be OK, as long as you have enough memory. I know that > 12K words core is enough (I have V03B on an 11/04 with 12K core), I suspect > it will fit in 10 or 8K. Jerome Fine replies: I see that V3.0 distribution of RT-11 has a MAC8K.SAV file. Does this mean that the total memory, including the RT-11 Operating System, can run in 8 KBytes with MAC8K running in somewhat less? OR, does MAC8K.SAV require 8 KBytes just to run itself (000000 to 017776) with RT-11 being located above 020000 (octal)? Is it possible that you have a complete V03.0B distribution? I have several incomplete sets and also a V3.0 distribution from 14-Aug-1977 with the boot floppy (RX01) partly overwritten (about the first 287 blocks) which means that seven SAV files are not available, but can fortunately be replaced by later versions that are available from V3.0B files which should be compatible if someone wants for some reason to use the actual V3.0 Operating System of RT-11 as opposed to V3.0B of RT-11. I believe that V3.0B files have a date of 11-Mar-1978. Also, I looked at the SYSMAC.SML file and note that there is no .DrVTB macro present (also no .DrSet macro although the information is hard coded into the various device drivers, and obviously the SET commands do work). Does this mean, in your opinion (maybe you or someone else remembers that far back - 22 years ago) that an LS.MAC device driver can't operate in V3.0B since RT-11 is not yet smart enough to use dual CSR/VECTOR hardware that requires two .DrAst entries? I notice that V4.0 of RT-11 finally has the LS.SYS device driver, but there is none present in V3.0B of RT-11, only the LP.SYS device driver. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Feb 12 18:57:24 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: HP 4972A LAN Protocol Analyser In-Reply-To: <20000212181811.I18249@mrbill.net>; from mrbill@mrbill.net on Sat, Feb 12, 2000 at 06:18:11PM -0600 References: <20000212181811.I18249@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20000212185724.K18249@mrbill.net> On Sat, Feb 12, 2000 at 06:18:11PM -0600, Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody know anything about a HP 4972A LAN Protocol Analyser? > Where I can find the OS software? manuals? etc? Is this > machine still worth anything? > Thanks.. (copyright date on the OS it boots is '90, so hey, it > fits the ten-year rule..) > Bill Here's a picture of one (mine looks exactly like this): http://www.pendex.com/testeq/hp/4972A-2.JPG Bill -- +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@pdp11.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | | http://www.sunhelp.org | http://www.pdp11.org | http://www.mrbill.net | +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 12 20:42:44 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: References: <200002122232.QAA24936@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000212214244.3e471338@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 05:18 PM 2/12/00 -0600, you wrote: >All, > At the Texas Thrift Store in San Antonio, loop 410 just south of >Ingram, I found: > >AT&T 6300 and Xerox box - these two looked identical except different >color schemes. Both $6.95, "as-is" and the Xerox says "works". Xerox >claimed to be made in Italy, I didn't check AT&T. FWIW Both were made in Italy by Olivetti. But I've never heard of one that was marked XEROX. That must be pretty unusual, you should think about picking it up. Also the 6300s need special monitors with 15 (or 25?) pin connectors. >Apple IIGS - mmmm...$13.95? I didn't write it down. "as-is" > >Franklin Ace 100? - ... $6.95?? "as-is". > > All boxes were seperated from monitors, keyboards, cables, manuals, >software - bare boxes only. I did not spot any such peripherals which >looked at all related to any of the above, but didn't look very hard. > If anyone is interested, email me offline and I'll buy, pack, ship, >and let you know how much it cost to do all three. Hopefully, you'll then >send me a check for that amount... > - Mark >PS are announcements like this of value to anyone? Should I continue them? >Move them to the auction-announce list? Comments offline preferred, online >OK if they are of general interest. Yeah, keep 'em coming. It's interesting to see what turns up and where and what the prices are. Joe > > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat Feb 12 18:37:36 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <004901bf75ba$860e1560$9a29d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, February 12, 2000 2:22 AM Subject: Re: RX01 Bootstrap Loader >"I needed to boot RX01s as that is a lot easier to run diagnostics across a >bunch of 11/20s quickly... beats paper tape!." > >Will DXDP run in 4k? > I have been able to boot XXDP on the PDP-11/20, no problems... but.. (here is where I have a problem) I know the PDP-11/20 is booting RT-11v3.0B as it loads for about 20 seconds.... problem is I don't get anything on the teletype. When booted, RT11 is waiting for keyboard input but does not read mine. When I use an M9312 (ver bad fit) I can type, when I boot XXDP it boots fine as well and I can type. I am using a KL11 (yuck) which uses one vector for both send/receive... at least thats what I thought I read. I just gave Jerome Fine RT-11v3.0B distribution to archive so I don't have the disks handy to find out if there was a special driver to support the KL11 teletype interface. I *really* don't want to hook up mag tape or RK05s eight now so... does someone know if there is a special driver for the KL11? BTW: RT11 V4 does not boot at all.. well, I hear the RX01 reading a bit... then it dies. KL11 setup: addr: 777560 , vector: 60. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 12 20:03:50 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: More interesting TK50 fun Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000212173203.020b1e30@mcmanis.com> Ok, so I had an old TK50Z-GA that was marked "dead" and I ripped it apart and discovered a couple of blow caps on the "heater" board :-) (some adjunct to the PSU) replaced those and it seems to work somewhat again (I've not hooked it up to SCSI, just powered it up to see the drive light up) Anyway, I took my other drive that I was powering up on the bench and by wiggling out the TK50 connector and the power connector I can now plug this thing in an watch it in "real time." This has yielded a bit more information about the failure mode of the drive. With the cover removed I can watch what the drive is doing. This is what I've found out. The "hook up" leader was around the spool and out of the feed path. Now when powered up the drive turns the spool a bit and then starts spinning it making the leader thingy go whack whack whack on the edges. (DEC weed whacker! :-) If I re-feed the take up lead through the tape path it moves back and forth a bit and then stops with the red light flashing. [Note to Tim: My test tape is a scratch tape] Then I fed the tape in manually and hooked it up to the leader. Now the tape was taken up on the spool a bit, then it rewinds to what might be the load point and stops. Then the red button flashes. If I try the press and release a few times leaving it in the unpressed position the drive feeds some time then rewinds and stops just as the end of the actual tape (beginning of the pick up lead) reaches the capstan. [Reference Picture : http://home.mcmanis.com/images/tk50-2.jpg ] In the reference picture I circled in Orange where the leader stops and in red where I cleaned with a q-tip. I've confirmed with my IR detector that the LED in the lower right side of the picture (more toward the rear) is emitting. So several questions come to mind. I'll pop out some of the obvious ones... 1) Does the Red Light/Button on the right hand side in the "out" position mean "unload" ? 2) When does the green light come on (except on power up when it is unloaded.) ? 3) It appears that a "working" unload sequence would have the tape leader get sucked back into the tape and the 'unhooker' should engage the hook leader. Why would it stop before it got that far? --Chuck From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Feb 12 20:05:59 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: More interesting TK50 fun Message-ID: <000212210559.256017d6@trailing-edge.com> >So several questions come to mind. I'll pop out some of the obvious ones... > >1) Does the Red Light/Button on the right hand side in the "out" position >mean "unload" ? Yes. >2) When does the green light come on (except on power up when it is >unloaded.) ? Green light on (solid) means it's OK to operate the handle. >3) It appears that a "working" unload sequence would have the tape leader >get sucked back > into the tape and the 'unhooker' should engage the hook leader. Why >would it stop > before it got that far? While it's doing its tricks, look carefully at the metal capstan that the tape and leader goes over at the rear of the drive. There's an optical interrupter connected to the shaft of this, and this is the only way that the TK50 knows that the tape is actually moving. If tape or leader is moving over this capstan without turning the capstan, the TK50 drive gets all confused and gives up. So look carefully to see if that capstan is turning as tape gets pulled over it. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mbg at world.std.com Sat Feb 12 20:20:04 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader References: <000212110540.25601686@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200002130220.VAA20693@world.std.com> >Also, I looked at the SYSMAC.SML file and note that there is no .DrVTB >macro present (also no .DrSet macro although the information is hard >coded into the various device drivers, and obviously the SET commands do >work). Does this mean, in your opinion (maybe you or someone else >remembers that far back - 22 years ago) that an LS.MAC device driver >can't operate in V3.0B since RT-11 is not yet smart enough to use dual >CSR/VECTOR hardware that requires two .DrAst entries? I notice that V4.0 >of RT-11 finally has the LS.SYS device driver, but there is none present >in V3.0B of RT-11, only the LP.SYS device driver. The .DRxxx set of macros were not added to RT until about the V4.0 timeframe. If you were to take an LS.MAC from a later release and modify it in such a way that it did not use .DRxxx macros, and used what data structures were available in V3B, it certainly would work. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sat Feb 12 20:25:52 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <200002130225.VAA23808@world.std.com> >I have been able to boot XXDP on the PDP-11/20, no problems... but.. >(here is where I have a problem) >I know the PDP-11/20 is booting RT-11v3.0B as it loads for about 20 >seconds.... problem is I don't get anything on the teletype. When booted, >RT11 is waiting for keyboard input but does not read mine. Taken with what you mentioned elsewhere in the message, I suspect that XXDP does PIO while RT uses interrupt-driven IO, and without the other interrupt working, it won't work. I have an idea of how it could be made to, though... contact me off-line... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 12 21:00:33 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe In-Reply-To: <200002130037.QAA24306@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000212220033.3d8faa66@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:37 PM 2/12/00 -0800, you wrote: >"I don't know anything about Honeywells but I just found two Honeywell >316s in a scrap yard here in Florida." > >John B knows quite a bit about these. I have docs for the 516 series mostly. > >Are the Pertec drives front or top loading? Any sign of a Pertec disc formatter >box? docs (i know.. ha ha..) They're front loaders. The tops are unfinished and the drives are obviously made to be put in rack where the tops, bottoms, sides don't show. What does the formatter box look like? It's not on the pallet unless it's so small that I overlooked it. But I can look for it the next time I'm there. Docs? What are those????? :-/ Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 12 21:05:47 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000212191359.2d87eb5c@mailhost.intellistar.net> <000901bf75a1$7acb6e00$49733ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000212220547.45af8830@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:41 PM 2/12/00 -0800, Zane wrote: >Joe, >> I don't know anything about Honeywells but I just found two Honeywell >>316s in a scrap yard here in Florida. They look complete but they're just > >I hope you rescued them. Nope. The owner is wanting "offers" on them. I think he hopes to retire soon! I'll be happy to pass on any offers or give you his name and phone number. Much as I'd like to, I don't have the money to buy ANYTHING at the moment. I just got back from the second day of a THREE day hamfest and I have exactly $5 of spending money left! But I have gotten some GREAT bargains. But that's another story. Joe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 12 20:46:26 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: TK50 gymnastics Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000212183909.01f8d9f0@mcmanis.com> Ok, so now that I've got a mini TK50 test bed set up I tested three other TK50s that I had in a box "condition unknown". After cleaning out some killer dust bunnies they all seem to do the write things. For the archives, TK50 behaviour is as follows: Power on (empty) hums a bit, Red light on. Red Light push button should be in the "out" position. Internal tape spindle moves a bit. Solenoid goes "click" and green light goes on (red off) Lift handle, slide in tape, close handle. Light stays green, nothing happens. Press Red light/button into the "depressed" position. Green light goes off, tape begins motion. Whir, Whir, grind grind grind, tape stops green light and red light remain lit. Use tape in this mode, when finished... Press Red light/button to the "out" position. Tape moves a bit then rewinds rapidly. Tape slows, light flickers, "click" Solenoid retracts and green light goes on. So my broken drive doesn't want to put the leader into the "load/unload" position. Instead the tape stops before it gets completely unwound. I've been using the same tape on all drives so that eliminates the tape as a candidate for now. --Chuck From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Feb 12 20:40:15 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader In-Reply-To: <38A60087.463E68C1@idirect.com>; from jhfine@idirect.com on Sat, Feb 12, 2000 at 07:53:27PM -0500 References: <000212110540.25601686@trailing-edge.com> <38A60087.463E68C1@idirect.com> Message-ID: <20000212214015.A7457@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Feb 12, 2000 at 07:53:27PM -0500, Jerome Fine wrote: > I see that V3.0 distribution of RT-11 has a MAC8K.SAV file. Does this > mean that the total memory, including the RT-11 Operating System, can > run in 8 KBytes with MAC8K running in somewhat less? OR, does > MAC8K.SAV require 8 KBytes just to run itself (000000 to 017776) > with RT-11 being located above 020000 (octal)? I believe it means 8 K for the whole system, but it's 8 K *words* not 8 K bytes. But I can't find anything in the MACRO V4.0 (which had an 8 K flavor too) manual that says for sure, all they do is show which features are missing in MAC8K. John Wilson D Bit From edick at idcomm.com Sat Feb 12 20:46:14 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: CDC 9448 "Phoenix" Spares Kit Message-ID: <001201bf75cc$7f4b9060$0400c0a8@winbook> If anybody needs one, I've got this old suitcase-sized SMD tester. If you're planning to do any maintenance I'm told they're useful. I got this only a few weeks before getting rid of the last of my SMD hardware. That was twenty years ago. I've never had occasion to use it. THe only place I ever used SMD was on my old Systems Group S-100 setup, together with a Konan SMC-100 controller. Dick -----Original Message----- From: jeff.kaneko@juno.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, February 12, 2000 7:42 PM Subject: CDC 9448 "Phoenix" Spares Kit >Guys: > >I have a bunch of stuf that (more or less) makes up >a spares kit for the the CDC 9448. > >Stuff includes: > >I/O Circuit Card >CNTL/MUX Card >Servo Coarse Board >Servo Fine Board >Read/Write Card >Extender Board >3 R/W Heads >Maintainence Manual (including schematics). > >As far as I can tell, all of this stuff is >new, except for maybe one of the R/W heads. >I can't use it, maybe someone here can. > >If there's any interest in this, please contact me >privately. > > >Thanks. > > >Jeff > > > >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From aek at spies.com Sat Feb 12 20:56:49 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe Message-ID: <200002130256.SAA28720@spies.com> "What does the formatter box look like?" Pertec formatters are about 3" high very boring looking rack mounted boxes. They may have been used with an internal 2315 style disc interface in the 316. The drives themselves are 2.5 mb (or 5 if there's a fixed disc underneath the removable) 2315 style devices. If they're the original Pertec Blue, I would suspect someone would want them for their Altair 8800b's From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 12 22:11:29 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <000001bf74aa$96af5ac0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000212231129.5007a818@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, Mike Haas came down from jacksonville and we went to the first day of the Orlando hamfest. Mike scored big time! No less than 6 different TRS computers. Several are like new and in their original boxs with all the books. He also bought several other interesting toys! I picked up all five of the original E&L BugBooks. Only on looks like it was ever touched. The others are all in PERFECT condition. I also picked up another HP 3468 digital multimeter with the HP-IL interface. :-) Also several NEW manuals for the HP 85 computer. Also several Tektronix manuals relating to HP-IB programming using the Tektronic 4051 computer. Also found the user's manual for the Tektronix 4662 plotter that I have to go with my 4051. Also found a 1982 Tektronix catalog, you can guess what it shows :-) Other finds include some kind of CPU board with a 1802 Cosmac CPU, a HP 97 manual and a Heathkit 4804 Byte probe. However the most surprising find was five boxs full of Intel 1702 EPROMs. In one box I found several ICs marked "AMD AM9217APC". I can't find a reference to them, does anyone know what they are? Also they say "Proto" below the IC number. Does that mean that these are prototypes? Joe From bill_r at inetnebr.com Sat Feb 12 21:25:42 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones In-Reply-To: <200002102340.SAA30309@armigeron.com> References: <20000210154145.B28218@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <200002102340.SAA30309@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:40:42 -0500 (EST), you wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Shawn T. Rutledge once stated: >> >> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600, Bill Richman wrote: >> > in them. What I've decided to do for terminals around the house (including >> > the kitchen and bathroom) is to buy some old 486 laptops with color displays >> > and PCMCIA slots. I've got PCMCIA ethernet cards for them, and am shopping >> > for PCMCIA sound cards. My plan is to run Linux or FreeBSD on them, and >> > X-windows, > > Be warned, while you can run Linux with 4M of RAM, installing Linux with >4M of RAM isn't easy. It took me the better part of a day to install Linux >on a Toshiba T1900C with 4M RAM and 120M harddrive (a half-baked manual >installtion of RedHat using Tom's Root/Doot disk and an existing RedHat >system) and a 3Com modem/ethernet PCMCIA card (and it's currently hooked >into the network at home). > We received the first "batch" of Compaq 486/50's I bought (24MB RAM, 384MB HDD, TFT active color display, two PCMCIA slots, built-in trackball) along with a couple of PCMCIA ethernet cards (IBM), and it turns out that FreeBSD works *great* on them; just loads up, detects the ethernet card, installs over the net and runs. They work great for browsing the 'net and for home control stuff. I've spent most of the last couple of days fishing cat 5 cable all through the house. Now we can even surf the net from the bathroom... ;-) -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 12 22:40:55 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe In-Reply-To: <200002130256.SAA28720@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000212234055.572fbf04@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:56 PM 2/12/00 -0800, Al wrote: >"What does the formatter box look like?" > >Pertec formatters are about 3" high very boring looking rack mounted >boxes. They may have been used with an internal 2315 style disc interface >in the 316. The drives themselves are 2.5 mb (or 5 if there's a fixed >disc underneath the removable) 2315 style devices. OK, I'll show my ignorance, what's a 2315 style device or 2315 interface? I wonder if the formatters might be attached to the drives? If they're the original >Pertec Blue, I would suspect someone would want them for their Altair 8800b's No, these aren't floppy drives. It looks like these use a removeable platter that's about 14" across. If they had been Pertec floppy drives I would have grabbed them! The whole box is about the same size as the Honeywell but about 2 inches taller. Roughly 18" w x 15" h x 20" deep. Joe > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Feb 12 21:41:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <200002130341.WAA28493@world.std.com> Ok, so I've come up with a plausible explanation for my TK50 problem. Apparently the drive thinks there is a tape cartridge in it, even though there isn't one. It runs the classic "loading sequence" (slow uptake then fast uptake) even though there isn't a cartridge present. That suggests that it is mistaken about the presence of a tape. So, does anyone know what all of the methods are the TK50 uses to sense the presence of a tape? I'd like to get this one fixed as it is an E4 (I've got two B2's, one E3, and working E4 and one dead E4) --Chuck From aek at spies.com Sat Feb 12 21:58:06 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds Message-ID: <200002130358.TAA30765@spies.com> ""AMD AM9217APC". I can't find a reference to them, does anyone know what they are?" 2k x 8 static RAMs. Are they 24 pin? From aek at spies.com Sat Feb 12 22:21:15 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe Message-ID: <200002130421.UAA31546@spies.com> IBM developed the front loading 2315 disc drive in the 60's, and is the basis for Diablo 31, Wanco, Pertec, HP 7900, and DEC RK05 2.5Mb single platter removable disc drives. >Pertec Blue, I would suspect someone would want them for their Altair 8800b's No, these aren't floppy drives. I know.. take a look at the Pertec adds in Byte in the early 80's, and there should be pictures of these drives in configurations with late MITS systems after MITS was bought by Pertec. Plessey also sold Pertec drives with their clone of the RK-11 disc controller. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 12 22:40:12 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: TK50 redux Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000212203645.01f82db0@mcmanis.com> Well I discovered the problem. The extender arm that is engaged by the cartridge when it is inserted has been bent. (Perhaps someone tried to shove a cartridge in without the handle lifted.) Anyway, without a replacement part the TK50 is not going to work again. Strangely, I went into another pile and came up with another E4 rev TK50 that had a different problem thinking that I might get the piece I need. No such luck, the mechanisms are quite different. There must be a zillion ECOs on the TK50, I don't think any two out of 6 present are identical. Well I've got four working ones and two dead ones. Other than the leader grabber, what other parts might be good salvage? (The hulks will stay in my scrap pile but at least they are now 'down for the count.') --Chuck From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Feb 13 01:15:01 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds Message-ID: <9.20e48a6.25d7b3f5@aol.com> In a message dated 2/12/2000 7:14:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > arked "AMD AM9217APC". I can't find a reference to them, does anyone know > what they are? Also they say "Proto" below the IC number. Does that mean > that these are prototypes? > My 1983 Almac catalog says they are 16K ROMs, organized as 2048X8. The 'A' is 550 ns., 5 V., 368mW. Since they say proto I suspect they are pre-programed ROMs. Paxton From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat Feb 12 23:45:47 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:48:59 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <004001bf75e5$93e0b140$9a29d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, February 12, 2000 9:28 PM Subject: Re: RX01 Bootstrap Loader > >Taken with what you mentioned elsewhere in the message, I suspect that >XXDP does PIO while RT uses interrupt-driven IO That's right. You can set the vector to anything you want (well, almost) and XXDP will boot and talk to the console - no matter the kind. M9312 will talk to a single interrupt teletype card as it too does PIO. I find that out every time I pull out a DL11-W and the vectors get messed up because the dip switches brush against another board. DEC *must* have done something for customers who did not wish to upgrade their old KL11s (M780 cards). After going through tech notes and FCOs I found that DEC switched from M780 -> M782 -> M7821 . Since a DL11-B,C,E, or -W can not be installed in the PDP-11/20 (because no +15V) a decision was made to add a G8000 module that would filter the 8V lamp voltage and use it as +15, add a couple of wires.. and a DL11 with EIA could work. As a result of RT11, DEC produced a new interrupt module M7820 (old one was M782). The new module handled two interrupts. :-) I just found a box of them :-) and the PDP-11/20 just booted RT11-V3.0B!!! and.. I just tried to boot RT11-V4.00 . Boots okay but there is not enough memory to run Basic. Those MM11-Es are a dogs breakfast. I can live with tuning 4K of core memory in a PDP-8 but tuning a bunch of core sets in a pdp-11!??!?! Yuck. executing "Show All" returns the mini is a "PDP-11/15,20 Processor".. after that it says "no device 012056". Guess I have to sysgen a 30b and a 4 for the 11/20s. >, and without the other >interrupt working, it won't work. I have an idea of how it could be made >to, though... contact me off-line... Thanks for the help... I am happy that the PDP-11/20s will continue to use the initial KL11 board set but I will contact you off list so that maybe the original M782 module can be used. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sun Feb 13 00:43:49 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <008501bf75ed$af2e2880$9a29d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, February 12, 2000 9:28 PM Subject: Re: RX01 Bootstrap Loader > >Taken with what you mentioned elsewhere in the message, I suspect that >XXDP does PIO while RT uses interrupt-driven IO That's right. You can set the vector to anything you want (well, almost) and XXDP will boot and talk to the console - no matter the kind. M9312 will talk to a single interrupt teletype card as it too does PIO. I find that out every time I pull out a DL11-W and the vectors get messed up because the dip switches brush against another board. DEC *must* have done something for customers who did not wish to upgrade their old KL11s (M780 cards). After going through tech notes and FCOs I found that DEC switched from M780 -> M782 -> M7821 . Since a DL11-B,C,E, or -W can not be installed in the PDP-11/20 (because no +15V) a decision was made to add a G8000 module that would filter the 8V lamp voltage and use it as +15, add a couple of wires.. and a DL11 with EIA could work. As a result of RT11, DEC produced a new interrupt module M7820 (old one was M782). The new module handled two interrupts. :-) I just found a box of them :-) and the PDP-11/20 just booted RT11-V3.0B!!! and.. I just tried to boot RT11-V4.00 . Boots okay but there is not enough memory to run Basic. Those MM11-Es are a dogs breakfast. I can live with tuning 4K of core memory in a PDP-8 but tuning a bunch of core sets in a pdp-11!??!?! Yuck. executing "Show All" returns the mini is a "PDP-11/15,20 Processor".. after that it says "no device 012056". Guess I have to sysgen a 30b and a 4 for the 11/20s. >, and without the other >interrupt working, it won't work. I have an idea of how it could be made >to, though... contact me off-line... Thanks for the help... I am happy that the PDP-11/20s will continue to use the initial KL11 board set but I will contact you off list so that maybe the original M782 module can be used. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Feb 13 02:15:15 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: CDC 9448 "Phoenix" Spares Kit In-Reply-To: <001201bf75cc$7f4b9060$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000213001515.00939a80@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 19:46 12-02-2000 -0700, you wrote: >If anybody needs one, I've got this old suitcase-sized SMD tester. If >you're planning to do any maintenance I'm told they're useful. I got this Is this the big thick one with about a zillion paddle switches and loads of test points? If so, it might actually have been made by (or for) Seagate. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From Jgzabol at aol.com Sun Feb 13 03:51:50 2000 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe Message-ID: In einer eMail vom 12.02.00 22:42:55 (MEZ) Mitteleurop?ische Zeit schreibt mrdos@swbell.net: > I recently acquired a Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe, printer, and numerous > terminals. I was wondering if anyone had any software, documentation, or > general knowledge of it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > I have a Bull DPS-6000, which really is a Honeywell. If there would be a correspondence between the machines, I would have docs and software. Do you have any idea if these might be the same machine ? Regards John G. Zabolitzky P.S. Any takers for the Convex so far ? From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sun Feb 13 06:45:22 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <009501bf7620$31b15700$9e3dc018@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> I've just found a TI PC circa 1983, 8088 cpu but not IBM compatible. Can't find any references to it anywhere. Is the story of this and the founding of Compaq to be found anywhere on the net. I gather they are related. This one came from a very fastidious former TI employee who seems to have accumulated every bit of software for it he could. Includes UCSD P-system, CP/M 86 and Concurrent CP/M 86 as well as all the DOS compilers of the era. Hans From vaxman at uswest.net Sun Feb 13 09:46:00 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: More interesting TK50 fun In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000212173203.020b1e30@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Feb 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Ok, so I had an old TK50Z-GA that was marked "dead" and I ripped it apart > and discovered a couple of blow caps on the "heater" board :-) (some > adjunct to the PSU) replaced those and it seems to work somewhat again > (I've not hooked it up to SCSI, just powered it up to see the drive light up) > The "heater" board is used to supply enough load to keep the switching power supply happy. > Anyway, I took my other drive that I was powering up on the bench and by > wiggling out the TK50 connector and the power connector I can now plug this > thing in an watch it in "real time." > > This has yielded a bit more information about the failure mode of the > drive. With the cover removed I can watch what the drive is doing. This is > what I've found out. > > The "hook up" leader was around the spool and out of the feed path. Now > when powered up the drive turns the spool a bit and then starts spinning it > making the leader thingy go whack whack whack on the edges. (DEC weed > whacker! :-) If I re-feed the take up lead through the tape path it moves > back and forth a bit and then stops with the red light flashing. > > [Note to Tim: My test tape is a scratch tape] > > Then I fed the tape in manually and hooked it up to the leader. Now the > tape was taken up on the spool a bit, then it rewinds to what might be the > load point and stops. Then the red button flashes. If I try the press and > release a few times leaving it in the unpressed position the drive feeds > some time then rewinds and stops just as the end of the actual tape > (beginning of the pick up lead) reaches the capstan. > If the "hook up" leader is a little bit bent at the end, it will not feed past the read head. Put a little reverse bend on it, hook it to the tape, and make sure it slides freely. > [Reference Picture : http://home.mcmanis.com/images/tk50-2.jpg ] > > In the reference picture I circled in Orange where the leader stops and in > red where I cleaned with a q-tip. I've confirmed with my IR detector that > the LED in the lower right side of the picture (more toward the rear) is > emitting. > > So several questions come to mind. I'll pop out some of the obvious ones... > > 1) Does the Red Light/Button on the right hand side in the "out" position > mean "unload" ? Off means unlocked (you can lift the handle and remove the tape) Off also means no power (you can't lift the handle and remove the tape) On steady means tape loaded Flashing means rewinding or unloading or error (Grrrr) > 2) When does the green light come on (except on power up when it is > unloaded.) ? When the tape is loaded and ready > 3) It appears that a "working" unload sequence would have the tape leader > get sucked back > into the tape and the 'unhooker' should engage the hook leader. Why > would it stop > before it got that far? > See above > --Chuck > > > > From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Feb 13 10:10:52 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader References: <000212110540.25601686@trailing-edge.com> <200002130220.VAA20693@world.std.com> Message-ID: <38A6D78C.D4CBE8B7@idirect.com> >Megan wrote: > >Also, I looked at the SYSMAC.SML file and note that there is no .DrVTB > >macro present (also no .DrSet macro although the information is hard > >coded into the various device drivers, and obviously the SET commands do > >work). Does this mean, in your opinion (maybe you or someone else > >remembers that far back - 22 years ago) that an LS.MAC device driver > >can't operate in V3.0B since RT-11 is not yet smart enough to use dual > >CSR/VECTOR hardware that requires two .DrAst entries? I notice that V4.0 > >of RT-11 finally has the LS.SYS device driver, but there is none present > >in V3.0B of RT-11, only the LP.SYS device driver. > The .DRxxx set of macros were not added to RT until about the V4.0 > timeframe. If you were to take an LS.MAC from a later release and > modify it in such a way that it did not use .DRxxx macros, and used > what data structures were available in V3B, it certainly would work. Jerome Fine replies: I do not wish to contradict you, but I did "EDIT" the V3.0 SYSMAC.SML file and found: .DrBeg .DrAst .DrFin .DrEnd >From what I can understand, that means that the essential macros were already available. While .DrSet would have been helpful, I can see in block zero of LPX.SYS that there is a full set (pardon the pun) of SET options and the LP.MAC file just has them hard coded in place. The key question I am wondering about is IF the ISR interaction between the operating system and the device driver that is present in V4.0 of RT-11 when the LSX.SYS device driver is LOADed and both pair of CSR/VECTOR are activated (so that XON/XOFF can be allowed for a serial printer) is also present in V3.0 of RT-11? I do not want to assume that just because V4.0 allowed two CSR/VECTOR pairs to be active and a device driver such as LSX.SYS to have two .DrAst entry points that V3.0 of RT-11 also allows the same thing. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From mikeporter at att.net Sun Feb 13 10:31:24 2000 From: mikeporter at att.net (Mike Porter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds References: <200002130758.BAA30058@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <38A6DC5C.BC99914A@att.net> I would be interested in those HP-85 manuals (and any other 85 stuff) if you are interested in selling them. Mike Porter > From: Joe > Subject: IC question and hamfest finds > > Hi, > > Mike Haas came down from jacksonville and we went to the first day of > the Orlando hamfest. Mike scored big time! No less than 6 different TRS > computers. Several are like new and in their original boxs with all the > books. He also bought several other interesting toys! > > I picked up all five of the original E&L BugBooks. Only on looks like it > was ever touched. The others are all in PERFECT condition. I also picked > up another HP 3468 digital multimeter with the HP-IL interface. :-) Also > several NEW manuals for the HP 85 computer. Also several Tektronix manuals > relating to HP-IB programming using the Tektronic 4051 computer. Also found > the user's manual for the Tektronix 4662 plotter that I have to go with my > 4051. Also found a 1982 Tektronix catalog, you can guess what it shows :-) > Other finds include some kind of CPU board with a 1802 Cosmac CPU, a HP 97 > manual and a Heathkit 4804 Byte probe. However the most surprising find > was five boxs full of Intel 1702 EPROMs. In one box I found several ICs > marked "AMD AM9217APC". I can't find a reference to them, does anyone know > what they are? Also they say "Proto" below the IC number. Does that mean > that these are prototypes? > > Joe > > ------------------------------ From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 13 10:45:02 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <20000213164502.22523.qmail@hotmail.com> >I've just found a TI PC circa 1983, 8088 cpu but not IBM compatible. >Can't find any references to it anywhere. > >Is the story of this and the founding of Compaq to be found anywhere >on >the net. I gather they are related. > >This one came from a very fastidious former TI employee who seems to >have >accumulated every bit of software for it he could. Includes >UCSD P-system, >CP/M 86 and Concurrent CP/M 86 as well as all the DOS >compilers of the >era. > >Hans Here is all I know about the history of the TI-PC. The TI-PC was released in 1984 not too long after the world famous TI-99/4A rolled over & died. The machine itself is a partial IBM-PC clone, but is not completely compatible as it uses a proprietary disk format (reminds me of an AT&T PC 6300/6400), & it's own version of DOS (TI-DOS, to be exact). The machine reportedly had excellent graphics hardware (for the day, anyway), & one of the best early PC keyboards anywhere. I have only seen one of these things "in the flesh", & that was a few years ago (either 1997 or 1998) in a getting repaired (!) in a Radio Shack. Despite all this, however, the machine failed to sell in large quantities & was abandoned by TI in less than a year. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, Double FDD, GeoRam 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mbg at world.std.com Sun Feb 13 11:07:49 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader References: <000212110540.25601686@trailing-edge.com> <200002130220.VAA20693@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200002131707.MAA13685@world.std.com> >Jerome Fine replies: > >I do not wish to contradict you, but I did "EDIT" the V3.0 SYSMAC.SML >file and found: .DrBeg .DrAst .DrFin .DrEnd >From what I can understand, that means that the essential macros were >already available. While .DrSet would have been helpful, I can see in >block zero of LPX.SYS that there is a full set (pardon the pun) of SET >options and the LP.MAC file just has them hard coded in place. I'm sorry, I forgot about the macros you mention -- those were there from the start (at least once the handler/monitor separation occurred), but the additional ones as you mention were not added until a later release... Until then, things like the SET tables were hard-coded into the module. >The key question I am wondering about is IF the ISR interaction between >the operating system and the device driver that is present in V4.0 of >RT-11 when the LSX.SYS device driver is LOADed and both pair >of CSR/VECTOR are activated (so that XON/XOFF can be allowed >for a serial printer) is also present in V3.0 of RT-11? I do not want to >assume that just because V4.0 allowed two CSR/VECTOR pairs to >be active and a device driver such as LSX.SYS to have two .DrAst >entry points that V3.0 of RT-11 also allows the same thing. I don't think dual vector support is in V3,0 of RT. I'm not absolutely sure, but I can't think of any handlers which used that. I'm sure it would be possible to do using the handler install code, but I also don't remember for which version that support was added. Then again, I do remember a KB handler making the rounds way back when... it must have used two vectors, but I don't know how it did it. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Feb 13 11:38:56 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <20000213164502.22523.qmail@hotmail.com>; from netsurfer_x1@hotmail.com on Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 04:45:02PM +0000 References: <20000213164502.22523.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <20000213123856.A9154@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 04:45:02PM +0000, David Vohs wrote: > The TI-PC was released in 1984 not too long after the world famous TI-99/4A > rolled over & died. The machine itself is a partial IBM-PC clone, but is not > completely compatible as it uses a proprietary disk format (reminds me of an > AT&T PC 6300/6400), & it's own version of DOS (TI-DOS, to be exact). The > machine reportedly had excellent graphics hardware (for the day, anyway), & > one of the best early PC keyboards anywhere. Did I imagine this or did TI have some kind of speech synthesizer doodad for this machine? I have a (possibly false) memory of seeing a TI-PC (the P stands for "professional", not "personal", right?) at a computer show (probably another one of those Hynes Auditorium things) back when it was a current product, and the folks running the booth were very proud of the fact that the thing was talking, I remember noticing that the speech had a discernable Texan accent and thinking "well that figures!" So that suggests it wasn't the usual Votrax SC01 stuff that was *everywhere* back then. John Wilson D Bit From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Feb 13 12:00:25 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: More interesting TK50 fun In-Reply-To: "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" "Re: More interesting TK50 fun" (Feb 13, 8:46) References: Message-ID: <10002131800.ZM16188@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 13, 8:46, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > On Sat, 12 Feb 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > 1) Does the Red Light/Button on the right hand side in the "out" position > > mean "unload" ? Yes, but watch the LEDS. > Off means unlocked (you can lift the handle and remove the tape) > Off also means no power (you can't lift the handle and remove the tape) > On steady means tape loaded > Flashing means rewinding or unloading or error (Grrrr) > > > 2) When does the green light come on (except on power up when it is > > unloaded.) ? > > When the tape is loaded and ready You really need to look at both LEDs together. Here's the table from the User's Guide: Green Red Drive state -------------------------------------------------------------------- Off Off power off Off On 1. After power-on, this condition occurs for 5-15s while the drive is initializing. (Red goes off and green comes on after initialization.) 2. Indicates handle is up, following cartridge insertion. 3. Indicates tape has almost completeed rewinding, and is approaching the unload point. Red stays on during this sequence (8-10s). On Off OK to lift handle NOTE: Only under this condition is it safe to lift the handle. Under any other condition, lifting the handle may damage the unit or cause a fault. On On Tape is at BOT and drive ready to accept system commands. Flash On Indicates tape motion during normal system operation. Flash Flash Tape is rewinding to BOT. Flash Fast Indicates a fault condition. See Chapter 5, Solving Flash Problems. Pushing the LOAD/UNLOAD switch FOUR times may clear the fault. Chapter 5 suggests trying the four-presses two or three times. If that doesn't work, power off and then on (it says to do this only once, actually). If that doesn't work, it suggests calling your system administrator, Field Service, or removing the drive to send to a Service Centre. Not very informative or helpful, really. The only chapter that's shorter is Chapter 4, "Uses For The TK50". The load sequence is: If the power is off, make sure the LOAD/UNLOAD button is in the OUT (unload) position, and power up the drive. Let the drive initialise: the red LED should be on for between 5 and 15 seconds, and then the green LED comes on and the red one goes off. When the green LED is on and the red is off, lift the handle. "Caution: never lift the handle if the red LED is on or blinking." "Smoothly and completely insert the cartridge." [the manual doesn't say where, but I'd be tempted to find the nearest convenient member of the TK50 design team, and ask them to turn round...] When it locks in place, the red LED should go on and the green LED off. Lower the handle. After several seconds, the green LED should come on steady, and the red LED should go off. At this point, it's safe to operate the handle again to remove the cartridge, or continue to load the tape. Push in the LOAD/UNLOAD switch (the LOAD position is IN). The tape shuold go through the load process, taking 5-8 seconds. Both LEDs come on steady when it reaches BOT. To unload a cartridge: Set the LOAD/UNLOAD switch to OUT (UNLOAD position). If the tape isn't already at BOT, both LEDs will flash *slowly* while it rewinds. If the tape was very cose to BOT, you might not see them flash. The red LED comes on while the tape is unloading from BOT. This should take 8-10 seconds, then the red LED should go off and the green should come on. When the red LED is off and the green is on, left the handle, which partially ejects the cartridge. ----- The manual has some diagrams showing how the tape leader in the cartridge should look, and how the take-up leader in the drive should be. From what you wrote, I don't think you have any problems here, but for the sake of completeness... I'm not going to attempt ASCII art for this, and I'm afraid I can't get at a scanner ATM, so I'll try to describe them: Cartridge: Looking at it right-side-up, with the edge with the door towards you and the hinge at the right, you should be able to release the door lock by lifting up the release. Swing open the door; you should see the leader on the left, with *nearly* all of the eye in the leader showing. Drive: With the handle down, looking into the cartridge slot, you should see the take-up leader, with its notch roughly in the middle of the slot. To the left of that notch, the take-up leader should be a little less than 1/2" wide; to the right of the notch it narrows to a fraction of that (maybe an 1/8"), with a sort of fat arrow-head on the end. A little hook on an arm behind the takeup leader (called the buckling link) should be hooked through the notch. Just at the back of the hook, on the buckling link, are a couple of vertical pins which prevent the takeup leader sliding too far back up the buckling link. The narrow part of the takeup leader should all be in front of the link, and straight; it should not be displaced above the link, nor tangled in it, nor unhooked. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 13 13:14:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds Message-ID: <200002131914.OAA04898@world.std.com> "Re: IC question and hamfest finds" (Feb 13, 14:14) References: <200002131914.OAA04898@world.std.com> Message-ID: <10002132056.ZM16293@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 13, 14:14, Allison J Parent wrote: > > The only amd I could find was 9517 (DMA controller like 8237). The 92xx > series has memories so it could be ram or prom type device. > > > Very likely. AMD used 91xx for RAM, 92xx for mask ROM (with a couple of exceptions), and 97xx for EPROM. AM9217 is an NMOS 2048 x 8-bit ROM; A is the speed (550ns), P means 24-pin plastic, C means commercial temperature range (0-70 Celcius). Pinout is the same as an 8316, 2716 compatible, but the chip selects on pins 18,20,21 can be specified either active-high or active-low. The AM9217 was superceded in the late 70's by the AM9218. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 13 13:27:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000212214244.3e471338@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 12, 0 09:42:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 261 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000213/e866325b/attachment.ksh From manney at hmcltd.net Sun Feb 13 15:11:22 2000 From: manney at hmcltd.net (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: Anyone have Apple IIGS software? Message-ID: <001101bf7666$e212fc20$43e3cfd8@fujitsu-c350> Anyone have Apple IIGS software cheaply? Thanks P Manney From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 13 16:31:56 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <200002130358.TAA30765@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000213173156.20ffabc8@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:58 PM 2/12/00 -0800, Al wrote: >""AMD AM9217APC". I can't find a reference to them, does anyone know >what they are?" > >2k x 8 static RAMs. Are they 24 pin? Yes. Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 13 16:54:36 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <200002131914.OAA04898@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000213175436.306f66d0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:14 PM 2/13/00 -0500, Allison wrote: > >Describe it more. What the Cosmac board? Let's see, It's 8 1/4" high x 9" deep. It has an edge connector with about 88 contacts with what looks like .156" spacing. There are four 1/2 AA size batteries near the top. Probably Nicads. They're growing white fuzz. The CPU is near the edge connector and is a RCA CDP 1802CE. It has the number 936 below the CDP number. Below it are three ZIF sockets, two of them have 2516 EPROMs in them. To the left of the CPU are two AMI 8039 22 pin ICs. All the other ICs are SSI. On the bottom edge it says "TRANSYT CORP. CPU T-3020". The end opposite the edge connector has a metal plate at a right angle to the card. So it's obviously made to slide into something. The metal plate is 1" wide x 9 7/8" tall. It has a small switch on it that's marked battery test and there's a LED above it. The bottom edge of the plate says "CPU" and there is a captive screw and the top and bottom of the plate. Any idea what it's out of? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 13 17:04:51 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <10002132056.ZM16293@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200002131914.OAA04898@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000213180451.430fa386@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:56 PM 2/13/00 GMT, Pete wrote: > >AMD used 91xx for RAM, 92xx for mask ROM (with a couple of exceptions), and >97xx for EPROM. AM9217 is an NMOS 2048 x 8-bit ROM; A is the speed >(550ns), P means 24-pin plastic, C means commercial temperature range (0-70 >Celcius). Pinout is the same as an 8316, 2716 compatible, but the chip >selects on pins 18,20,21 can be specified either active-high or active-low. > The AM9217 was superceded in the late 70's by the AM9218. Thanks for the info Pete. Too bad AMD didn't put that in their IC website. Joe From aek at spies.com Sun Feb 13 16:34:59 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds Message-ID: <200002132234.OAA09852@spies.com> ">""AMD AM9217APC". I can't find a reference to them, does anyone know >what they are?" > >2k x 8 static RAMs. Are they 24 pin? Yes. " Sorry about that. Upper left corner of page 1186 of the 1979 IC Master says "ROM" not "RAM" gee... wonder what the bits in the ROMs were for? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Feb 13 16:53:00 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: Anyone have Apple IIGS software? In-Reply-To: <001101bf7666$e212fc20$43e3cfd8@fujitsu-c350> Message-ID: >Anyone have Apple IIGS software cheaply? >From the Apple II FAQ (hint hint, look for the faq before asking the q) Here is a listing of major Apple II game archive sites: Apple Cabi.net #1 archive of IIgs games; mainly in ShrinkIt files ACN Florida ftp://24.96.48.134:6502/ ACN Tarnover ftp://tarnover.dyndns.org/cabi/ Apple IIgs Gaming Memory Fairway- #1 archive of out-of-print commercial IIgs games in emulator .2mg form (some also in ShrinkIt form); includes brief overview for each selection http://www.inwards.com/~fairway/ Apple2 Caltech- large collection of II/IIgs games ftp://apple2.caltech.edu/pub/apple2/ Asimov- #1 archive of Apple II 8-bit games and game utilities in emulator DSK and file formats ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/ French software at ... ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/french_software/ Asimov Mirrors- sites which mirror Asimov Georgia Mirror ftp://mirror.apple.asimov.net ACN Florida ftp://24.96.48.134:6502/Asimov_Archives/ ACN Tarnover ftp://tarnover.dyndns.org/asimov/ Ground- the largest Apple II archive; maintains many II/IIgs games ftp://ground.ecn.uiowa.edu/apple2/ The Vault- archive of Apple II games in emulator disk image form http://www.classicgaming.com/vault/appleiiroms-AM.shtml Uni-kl.de Apple2 U. Kaiserslautern- II/IIgs games in emulator and .shk form ftp://ftp.uni-kl.de/pub/apple2/ XGS Archives- extensive archive of out-of-print commercial IIgs games in emulator .2mg form; offers single-list access with brief comments and file performance info. http://www.inwards.com/xgs/archives.html Other important Apple II game sites are ... Apple Emulator's Wargame Pages- indexes of A2 wargames with screen pics and download links for disk images http://home.earthlink.net/~evin1/a2war/ Apple2 U. Michagan- A2 archive http://www.umich.edu/~archive/apple2/ AV Systems- sells game, education, utility software http://members.xoom.com/AV_Systems/ B&R Computing- sells used II/IIgs commercial games http://hometown.aol.com/rrbp/Home.html From ernestls at home.com Sun Feb 13 17:03:32 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bf7676$8d4fd0e0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> You can plug other old monitors into it if you get an adapter, however there are a couple of things that you should know first. The monochrome monitor does get it's power from the video card but if you open the case, and unplug the little orange/black power plug off of the video card, you can then plug the AT&T color monitor into it. If you don't unplug the video power plug first, you will melt your color monitor. If you do a search for AT&T 6300 on altavista, you'll get a bunch of pin maps for the 6300 video and keyboard plugs. Also, if anyone is interested, I have a bunch of 6300 software, including the hard to find keyboard mouse drivers. I also have UNIX System 5 release 2 for the 6300+. I can make copies for you. Does anyone else have any unusual 6300 software -I have a little ATT product catalog which lists tons and tons of 6300 series software and add on parts. Ernest -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 11:27 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. > picking it up. Also the 6300s need special monitors with 15 (or 25?) pin > connectors. IIRC, it's a DB25 connector, and it carries the (12V) power for the monochrome monitor, so plugging anything else into the monitor socket is a very bad idea. -tony From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Feb 13 17:11:25 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Feb 13, 2000 07:27:13 pm" Message-ID: <200002132311.SAA42905@bg-tc-ppp133.monmouth.com> > > picking it up. Also the 6300s need special monitors with 15 (or 25?) pin > > connectors. > > IIRC, it's a DB25 connector, and it carries the (12V) power for the > monochrome monitor, so plugging anything else into the monitor socket is > a very bad idea. > > -tony The machine can also drive a color monitor in 640x400 mode -- so a number of multisync monitors can be used with it including the MultisyncII which was oem'd by AT&T as the 319 (the only thing you need is an adapter cable). I've got a VDC750 which will drive one of those 25 pin monitors as a VGA/EGA as well. The VGA (I think) was a modified Western Digital (Paradise) card. (nice at the time)... Bill From ernestls at home.com Sun Feb 13 17:09:48 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: Anyone have Apple IIGS software? In-Reply-To: <001101bf7666$e212fc20$43e3cfd8@fujitsu-c350> Message-ID: <000101bf7677$6c973d60$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> You should go to the comp.sys.apple2 newsgroup -those folks will bury you in software. Also, the faq for that newsgroup will tell you how to set up a serial transfer line so that you can move files that you download from the net to your IIgs. It's very easy, and loads of fun. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of PG Manney Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 1:11 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Anyone have Apple IIGS software? Anyone have Apple IIGS software cheaply? Thanks P Manney From ernestls at home.com Sun Feb 13 17:37:57 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300/Xerox 6400 In-Reply-To: <000001bf7676$8d4fd0e0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> Message-ID: <000201bf767b$5c338b00$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> Xerox licensed the 6300 system from AT&T, repainted it, and called it the 6400. The machines are mostly identical inside and out, except for the coloring. The Xerox is a little newer. I know of a place, here in Seattle, that has lots of 6300 monitors and keyboards for very cheap so if anyone buys the 6300 at San Antonio, I can gather up the extra parts that you would need and ship them to you for cost plus shipping -maybe $30 to $40 total, and as I said before, I also have a the ATT MSDOS, and other software so that's available also. I even have an extra mouse that I could sell, for the right price. The 6300 is a funky machine but you won't see to many of them around in working condition. Everything about them is proprietary, but you can add 8 bit ISA cards. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ernest Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 3:04 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. You can plug other old monitors into it if you get an adapter, however there are a couple of things that you should know first. The monochrome monitor does get it's power from the video card but if you open the case, and unplug the little orange/black power plug off of the video card, you can then plug the AT&T color monitor into it. If you don't unplug the video power plug first, you will melt your color monitor. If you do a search for AT&T 6300 on altavista, you'll get a bunch of pin maps for the 6300 video and keyboard plugs. Also, if anyone is interested, I have a bunch of 6300 software, including the hard to find keyboard mouse drivers. I also have UNIX System 5 release 2 for the 6300+. I can make copies for you. Does anyone else have any unusual 6300 software -I have a little ATT product catalog which lists tons and tons of 6300 series software and add on parts. Ernest -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 11:27 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. > picking it up. Also the 6300s need special monitors with 15 (or 25?) pin > connectors. IIRC, it's a DB25 connector, and it carries the (12V) power for the monochrome monitor, so plugging anything else into the monitor socket is a very bad idea. -tony From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 13 18:49:34 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: OT: Faber Castell Slide Rule question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000213173156.20ffabc8@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <200002130358.TAA30765@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000213194934.56c78bb4@mailhost.intellistar.net> I know that there are several slide rule collectors on this list. But is there anyone here that is *VERY* knowlegdeable about the Faber Castell slide rules? I found a very strange one that I'd like some help in identifying. It's completely different from the descriptions of Faber Castell models in general and it has no model name or model number on it. Contact me directly and I'll send you a description. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 13 18:53:01 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <200002132234.OAA09852@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000213195301.49bfa5e4@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:34 PM 2/13/00 -0800, Al wrote: >">""AMD AM9217APC". I can't find a reference to them, does anyone know >>what they are?" >> >>2k x 8 static RAMs. Are they 24 pin? > > Yes. >" > >Sorry about that. Upper left corner of page 1186 of the 1979 IC >Master says "ROM" not "RAM" > >gee... wonder what the bits in the ROMs were for? I have no idea but I doubt I have any use for them so I guess they and the IC will go to that big bit bucket in the sky ^H^H^H er, ah, China. Joe > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 13 19:19:54 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds Message-ID: <200002140119.UAA26619@world.std.com> < What the Cosmac board? Let's see, It's 8 1/4" high x 9" deep. It has a Message-ID: I thought the Olivetti was Xerox's 6060? It's an elegantly beautiful machine, with the styling improved over the 6300, but all minor changes. I have only seen two myself, a stripped carcass, and an almost mint set with software that we were given. On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Ernest wrote: > Xerox licensed the 6300 system from AT&T, repainted it, and called it the > 6400. The machines are mostly identical inside and out, except for the > coloring. The Xerox is a little newer. > > I know of a place, here in Seattle, that has lots of 6300 monitors and > keyboards for very cheap so if anyone buys the 6300 at San Antonio, I can > gather up the extra parts that you would need and ship them to you for cost > plus shipping -maybe $30 to $40 total, and as I said before, I also have a > the ATT MSDOS, and other software so that's available also. I even have an > extra mouse that I could sell, for the right price. > > The 6300 is a funky machine but you won't see to many of them around in > working condition. Everything about them is proprietary, but you can add 8 > bit ISA cards. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ernest > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 3:04 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. > > > You can plug other old monitors into it if you get an adapter, however there > are a couple of things that you should know first. > > The monochrome monitor does get it's power from the video card but if you > open the case, and unplug the little orange/black power plug off of the > video card, you can then plug the AT&T color monitor into it. If you don't > unplug the video power plug first, you will melt your color monitor. If you > do a search for AT&T 6300 on altavista, you'll get a bunch of pin maps for > the 6300 video and keyboard plugs. > > Also, if anyone is interested, I have a bunch of 6300 software, including > the hard to find keyboard mouse drivers. I also have UNIX System 5 release 2 > for the 6300+. I can make copies for you. Does anyone else have any unusual > 6300 software -I have a little ATT product catalog which lists tons and tons > of 6300 series software and add on parts. > > Ernest > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 11:27 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. > > > > picking it up. Also the 6300s need special monitors with 15 (or 25?) pin > > connectors. > > IIRC, it's a DB25 connector, and it carries the (12V) power for the > monochrome monitor, so plugging anything else into the monitor socket is > a very bad idea. > > -tony > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From dogas at leading.net Sun Feb 13 19:59:43 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds Message-ID: <01bf768f$29b398a0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> -----Original Message----- From: Joe > ... Mike Haas came down from jacksonville and we went to the first day of >the Orlando hamfest. Mike scored big time! No less than 6 different TRS >computers. Several are like new and in their original boxs with all the >books. He also bought several other interesting toys! > It was fun! A boxed coco2 and mc-10, and letsee... a model 4, a model 1 L1, a model 1 L2, a Holmes Expansion Interface, 2 disks, a light pen, and ;) the plug&power controller with docs and cassette software. Non Radioshack stuff included a prettily outfitted Atari Portfolio, a Covox voice master again for the atari I hope, an Epson hx-20, and ;))) an Applied Microsystems diagnostic cpu emulator with a 6809 pod and documentation. I drove back down there later Sunday and didn't see anything more than I had on Friday, and am in some respects glad. This haul will take awile to assimilate.... Cheers! - Mike: dogas@leading.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 13 18:25:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: <000001bf7676$8d4fd0e0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> from "Ernest" at Feb 13, 0 03:03:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 908 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000214/c7fa2dc8/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 13 21:51:30 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <01bf768f$29b398a0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000213225130.2117ad64@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:59 PM 2/13/00 -0500, Mike, wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe > >> ... Mike Haas came down from jacksonville and we went to the first day of >>the Orlando hamfest. Mike scored big time! No less than 6 different TRS >>computers. Several are like new and in their original boxs with all the >>books. He also bought several other interesting toys! >> > >It was fun! A boxed coco2 and mc-10, and letsee... a model 4, a model 1 >L1, a model 1 L2, a Holmes Expansion Interface, 2 disks, a light pen, and ;) >the plug&power controller with docs and cassette software. Non Radioshack >stuff included a prettily outfitted Atari Portfolio, a Covox voice master >again for the atari I hope, an Epson hx-20, and ;))) an Applied Microsystems >diagnostic cpu emulator with a 6809 pod and documentation. > >I drove back down there later Sunday and didn't see anything more than I had >on Friday, and am in some respects glad. This haul will take awile to >assimilate.... > > Mike, You left out the boxed RS cassette drive. Where were you Sunday? I never saw you. You must have missing the HTI 68030 emulator/development setup and the two Dec 3000s. The same guy has FIVE SGIs that he wants to get rid of. I'M working on that! The guy that I told you about that has the paper tape reader and punch was there. I would have introduced you if I had seen you. You also forgot to stop and get that PDP out of my truck. I got a big set of National Semiconductor data books today. Including the ones for the 2900 bit slice CPUs. Also found ANOTHER HP 3468 HP-IL digital multimeter and a very strange Faber Castell slide rule. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 13 21:54:39 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: References: <000001bf7676$8d4fd0e0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000213225439.210f9f76@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:25 AM 2/14/00 +0000, someone wrote: > >[AT&T6300] >> The monochrome monitor does get it's power from the video card but if you >> open the case, and unplug the little orange/black power plug off of the >> video card, you can then plug the AT&T color monitor into it. If you don't >> unplug the video power plug first, you will melt your color monitor. If you No, you're wrong. Three of my close friends bought the 6300s when they were new and one of them had the color monitor. You only had to unplug the monochrome monitor and plug in the color one. NO other changes were needed. Joe From ernestls at home.com Sun Feb 13 22:37:49 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300/Xerox 6400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201bf76a5$3fb6f6e0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> Here is the pin out for the 25pin video cable on the monitor. Connector: D25 1. horizontal sync 2. ID0 (monitor id) 3. vertical sync 4. red 5. green 6. blue 8. nothing 9. nothing 10. ID1 11. Mode0 12. nothing 13. -Degauss 14-21. gnd 22. nothing 23. nothing 24,25. +15V for a monochrome monitor ID0 and ID1 are open for color, ID0 is 0, and ID1 is 1, probably 5V, not 15v I have eight different 6300s, and in every case, the monochrome systems have the power connector plugged into the video card, and the color systems have this connector unplugged. Also, I plugged a color monitor into one of the systems using monochrome, plugged the power cord into the wall, turned on the monitor, then the system and poof, the color monitor popped and went out. Maybe it was a coincidence but now, I unplug that power connector to the video card when I want to use a color monitor. Looking at the pin map above, it looks like pins 24 and 25 are the hot ones, which might explain why my color monitor popped but I'm not an electrician, so I'm not sure. There are two other power wires that plug into the bus, where it connects to the motherboard and video card, so I assume that is where the rest of the system gets it's power. Olivetti may have licensed the 6060 from Xerox but the Xerox 6400 is a knockoff of the 6300, which is a knockoff of the Olivetti M24 (?) -the boards inside even say Olivetti on both the 6300 and 6400. These two systems are based on what I believe is the Olivetti M24 (1984.)To tell you the truth, I know that Olivetti produced this system for both AT&T, and Xerox but I'm not sure who designed it. http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/oliv_m24.html http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/att-6300.html Ernest -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Merle K. Peirce Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 5:58 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: AT&T 6300/Xerox 6400 I thought the Olivetti was Xerox's 6060? It's an elegantly beautiful machine, with the styling improved over the 6300, but all minor changes. I have only seen two myself, a stripped carcass, and an almost mint set with software that we were given. On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Ernest wrote: > Xerox licensed the 6300 system from AT&T, repainted it, and called it the > 6400. The machines are mostly identical inside and out, except for the > coloring. The Xerox is a little newer. > > I know of a place, here in Seattle, that has lots of 6300 monitors and > keyboards for very cheap so if anyone buys the 6300 at San Antonio, I can > gather up the extra parts that you would need and ship them to you for cost > plus shipping -maybe $30 to $40 total, and as I said before, I also have a > the ATT MSDOS, and other software so that's available also. I even have an > extra mouse that I could sell, for the right price. > > The 6300 is a funky machine but you won't see to many of them around in > working condition. Everything about them is proprietary, but you can add 8 > bit ISA cards. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ernest > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 3:04 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. > > > You can plug other old monitors into it if you get an adapter, however there > are a couple of things that you should know first. > > The monochrome monitor does get it's power from the video card but if you > open the case, and unplug the little orange/black power plug off of the > video card, you can then plug the AT&T color monitor into it. If you don't > unplug the video power plug first, you will melt your color monitor. If you > do a search for AT&T 6300 on altavista, you'll get a bunch of pin maps for > the 6300 video and keyboard plugs. > > Also, if anyone is interested, I have a bunch of 6300 software, including > the hard to find keyboard mouse drivers. I also have UNIX System 5 release 2 > for the 6300+. I can make copies for you. Does anyone else have any unusual > 6300 software -I have a little ATT product catalog which lists tons and tons > of 6300 series software and add on parts. > > Ernest > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 11:27 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. > > > > picking it up. Also the 6300s need special monitors with 15 (or 25?) pin > > connectors. > > IIRC, it's a DB25 connector, and it carries the (12V) power for the > monochrome monitor, so plugging anything else into the monitor socket is > a very bad idea. > > -tony > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sun Feb 13 22:44:17 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: [CC] Looking for a 68k Macintosh software archive. In-Reply-To: <20000212223018.58549.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/Printing/StyleWriter/ On Sat, 12 Feb 2000, David Vohs wrote: > Can anybody direct me to one (or a few) good websites or ftp boards that > have software for 68k-based Macs (one that has Smooth Talker, & a > Stylewriter II driver would be nice). > ____________________________________________________________ > David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. > > Computer Collection: > > "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, Double FDD, GeoRam 512, Okimate 20. > "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. > "Delorean": TI-99/4A. > "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. > ____________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From ernestls at home.com Sun Feb 13 22:44:28 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000213225439.210f9f76@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000301bf76a6$2d296700$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> Check my posting on the ATT 6300/Xerox 6400. It shows a pin map of the video cable for the monitor. I'm not an electrician but it looks like pins 24 and 25 are the hot ones, at least on the card for sure. I've based the advice on my own experience, which could be pure coincidence but now, I unplug the power to the video card when I use a color monitor. I have collected eight of the 6300s, and in each case, the color monitors have the power connector unplugged at the video card. Maybe that was coincidence too. Ernest -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 7:55 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. At 12:25 AM 2/14/00 +0000, someone wrote: > >[AT&T6300] >> The monochrome monitor does get it's power from the video card but if you >> open the case, and unplug the little orange/black power plug off of the >> video card, you can then plug the AT&T color monitor into it. If you don't >> unplug the video power plug first, you will melt your color monitor. If you No, you're wrong. Three of my close friends bought the 6300s when they were new and one of them had the color monitor. You only had to unplug the monochrome monitor and plug in the color one. NO other changes were needed. Joe From transit at primenet.com Sun Feb 13 23:19:52 2000 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: AT&T Sequent. . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On another list, a public library is considering disposing of the following: "AT&T Sequent, WYSE terminals, router, bridges, hubs, printers, UPS etc" and is interested in trying to determine the "value" of this equipment. They're asking for a "bluebook" showing the values of old computers and such (I don't think such a beast exists, but. .. ) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Feb 14 03:05:31 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: AT&T Sequent. . . Message-ID: In a message dated 2/13/2000 9:26:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, transit@primenet.com writes: > er list, a public library is considering disposing of the > following: "AT&T Sequent, WYSE terminals, router, bridges, hubs, printers, > UPS , etc." and is interested in trying to determine the "value" of this > equipment. They're asking for a "bluebook" showing the values of old > computers and such (I don't think such a beast exists, but. .. ) > Actually there is a computer blue book. It might cover the Wyse terminals but it is more PC based. It has some mini stuff but I doubt the Sequent, routers, bridges UPS etc. Pawn shops use it to evaluate what they will loan on equipment. They are published by Orion Research Corp. in Durango Colorado. It is published yearly and cost about $150. It is actually blue colored. I could help evaluate it if they want to contact me off list. I suspect they would be shocked at the actual valuation. Of course it depends on the age of the equipment. It might be a candidate for a rescue though. Is anyone on the list running a Sequent. Paxton From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Feb 14 04:24:47 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: AT&T Sequent. . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On another list, a public library is considering disposing of the >following: "AT&T Sequent, WYSE terminals, router, bridges, hubs, printers, >UPS etc" and is interested in trying to determine the "value" of this >equipment. They're asking for a "bluebook" showing the values of old >computers and such (I don't think such a beast exists, but. .. ) A bit ridiculous isn't it, a LIBRARY requiring some book it apparently can't find or identify. Between 3 and 7 cents per pound isn't a bad guess though. Anything better would depend on location and specifics. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Feb 14 08:09:56 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: AT&T Sequent. . . In-Reply-To: from "Innfogra@aol.com" at "Feb 14, 2000 04:05:31 am" Message-ID: <200002141409.JAA45493@bg-tc-ppp738.monmouth.com> > In a message dated 2/13/2000 9:26:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, > transit@primenet.com writes: > > > Actually there is a computer blue book. It might cover the Wyse terminals > but it is more PC based. It has some mini stuff but I doubt the Sequent, > routers, bridges UPS etc. Pawn shops use it to evaluate what they will loan > on equipment. They are published by Orion Research Corp. in Durango > Colorado. It is published yearly and cost about $150. It is actually blue > colored. Interesting... > > It might be a candidate for a rescue though. Is anyone on the list running a > Sequent. Since AT&T never made or resold Sequent and resold Pyramid systems in competition to Sequent I'm kind of intrigued. AT&T called them System 7000's (Series 1, 2 or 3) Pyramid's equivalents were the MIS-2, MIS-4 or MIS-10 models for the 7000 Series 1, MIS-2T, MIS-4T or MIS-10T for the Series 2 and the Series 3 were MIS-S models (MIPS R3000 cpu's instead of Pyramid's RISC designs). > > Paxton > > I used to teach for Pyramid's ed services and would be happy to be of some service if this is actually a Pyramid. Bill From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Feb 14 08:52:50 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: AT&T Sequent. . . Message-ID: <000214095250.25601b37@trailing-edge.com> > On another list, a public library is considering disposing of the > following: "AT&T Sequent, WYSE terminals, router, bridges, hubs, printers, > UPS etc" and is interested in trying to determine the "value" of this > equipment. They're asking for a "bluebook" showing the values of old > computers and such (I don't think such a beast exists, but. .. ) More realistic than any single "bluebook" would be to call up dealers in such equipment and see what they're willing to offer. The classic place to begin such a search is in a long-standing minicomputer rag called _Processor_. They're mostly PC-clone ads these days, but they still have a few pages dedicated to DEC and Data General equipment, and there are certainly many outfits in there that'll be interested in quality (i.e. not PC-clone) terminals, network equipment, printers, etc. See http://www.processor.com/ for their on-line presence. It's expanding, though it's still not nearly as good as the actual printed edition. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Feb 14 11:01:57 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: Anyone Out There With a Sun 4/110? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000214090157.0086bbd0@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: The power supply in my Sun 4/110 is acting up. The problem appears to be with the line filter just ahead of the power supply proper. Anyone else have a 4/110 on the list? I'd like to correspond to try to fix the problem. Thanks, Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 14 12:28:46 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300/Xerox 6400 In-Reply-To: <000201bf76a5$3fb6f6e0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> from "Ernest" at Feb 13, 0 08:37:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2214 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000214/0ef3eccd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 14 12:48:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: Anyone Out There With a Sun 4/110? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000214090157.0086bbd0@mail.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Feb 14, 0 09:01:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 535 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000214/857a5870/attachment.ksh From transit at primenet.com Mon Feb 14 13:59:29 2000 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: Hamfests, Amiga Drives (was: Re: dumpster diving and other sources , of goodies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Hello, ladies and gents out there > > I have found good stuff in the dollar bin at Computer Renaissance: Where is "Computer Renaissance"? (I'm guessing it's some sort of store. .. ) > And I also recommend going to hamfests -- amateur radio fleamarkets. Quite > a few guys get this stuff and try to peddle it for a couple bucks. My > favorite line is -- How badly do you want to take this boatanchor home?? I often go to the TRW hamfest in Redondo Beach, CA. (http://linex-w6trw.sp.trw.com/w6trw/swapmeet/swap.htm). Generally lots of good stuff, although it's been quiet on the 8-bit front as of late (lots of old Mac and PC stuff, though). And there's always the same old guys selling the same old radio for the same old price, month after month. . . > > At one hamfest I found 19 used DSDD 3.5" drives for $30. These are the > standard Amiga drive, but useless anywhere else. Was that $30 for the *lot*? Geez, I've seen these drives go for $30 *each*. . . From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 14 14:50:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:00 2005 Subject: Hamfests, Amiga Drives (was: Re: dumpster diving and other sources , of goodies In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Feb 14, 0 11:59:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1066 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000214/f51b6b2b/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 17:19:59 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: Hamfests, Amiga Drives (was: Re: dumpster diving and other sources , of goodies Message-ID: <20000214231959.13414.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Charles P. Hobbs" wrote: > > On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > > At one hamfest I found 19 used DSDD 3.5" drives for $30. These are the > > standard Amiga drive, but useless anywhere else. > > Was that $30 for the *lot*? Geez, I've seen these drives go for $30 > *each*. . . That _is_ a good price if it was for the lot. If anyone is looking for a similar item, I have a box of Sony MP-F11W-72 drives, 720K DSDD 3.5" floppies for various Tandy boxes, including the Tandy 1000. One catch: they don't have a power connector. They draw power over the 34-pin data cable. Typically, floppies have grounds on the odd pins; this one scopes out thusly... 1 NC (uninstalled jumper at RJ1 (GND) and R1 (?)) 3 NC (uninstalled jumper at RJ3 (GND)) (FAQ claims +5VDC) 5-11 +5VDC 13-19 GND 29,31 NC (uninstalled jumper at RJ7 (GND)) (FAQ claims +12VDC) 33 NC (FAQ claims +12VDC) (cf. the Tandy 1000 FAQ - http://www.oldskool.org/~tvdog/1kfaq.html#II.C ) There is a space for a power connector, but it is not installed. If you feel like migrating a connector from a dead floppy, it's doable, but for non-Tandy use, a modified cable might be the better solution. I got these from the Dayton Hamfest in a "you want one, you take the box" deal from the local Radio Shack guys that used to have a great booth in the white tent in the corner of the flea market. I will never use more than one or two of them. Now's your chance to stock up on bizarre Tandy drives. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From jallain at databaseamerica.com Mon Feb 14 17:52:45 2000 From: jallain at databaseamerica.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: (SOT) IBM 730T and PCMCIA hard drives In-Reply-To: <20000210220955.C29331@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <000101bf7746$97edbfa0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Shawn T. Rutledge said: Re: 730T > Since there is no BIOS setup could I get it to boot > from a different sized drive.... Quick answer: I picked a random Swapmeet PCM drive (160MBy) and the 730T recognized it right away. I formatted and loaded it in a friends Modern Laptop. There is a BIOS Set-Up for the 730T. Just depress <> penswitch on the frame for 5Sec while booting. BIOS and selftest there are all icon based. 730T is >5years old and officially de-supported by the manufacturer so it ?is? on-Topic. John A. From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon Feb 14 18:26:52 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: (SOT) IBM 730T and PCMCIA hard drives In-Reply-To: <000101bf7746$97edbfa0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com>; from John Allain on Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 06:52:45PM -0500 References: <20000210220955.C29331@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <000101bf7746$97edbfa0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <20000214172652.A18765@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 06:52:45PM -0500, John Allain wrote: > Shawn T. Rutledge said: > Re: 730T > > Since there is no BIOS setup could I get it to boot > > from a different sized drive.... > > Quick answer: > I picked a random Swapmeet PCM drive (160MBy) and > the 730T recognized it right away. I formatted and Good. > loaded it in a friends Modern Laptop. There is a What OS was running on the Modern Laptop? > BIOS Set-Up for the 730T. Just depress <> penswitch > on the frame for 5Sec while booting. BIOS and selftest Now there's some useful info, thanks. > there are all icon based. 730T is >5years old and officially > de-supported by the manufacturer so it ?is? on-Topic. Cool. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From marvin at rain.org Sun Feb 13 19:02:41 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: Hamfests, Amiga Drives (was: Re: dumpster diving and other sources , of goodies References: Message-ID: <38A75431.73BC4625@rain.org> "Charles P. Hobbs" wrote: > > I often go to the TRW hamfest in Redondo Beach, CA. > (http://linex-w6trw.sp.trw.com/w6trw/swapmeet/swap.htm). Generally lots of > good stuff, although it's been quiet on the 8-bit front as of late (lots > of old Mac and PC stuff, though). And there's always the same old guys > selling the same old radio for the same old price, month after month. . . Okay, why is it you haven't stopped by to say Hi :)??? John has two spots reserved, IIRC G22 and G24, and we are always looking to meet members of the list. We even head over to Coco's for lunch afterward to swap lies. There has almost always been a lot of interesting stuff there and my goal is to sell as much as I buy :). Stop by and say Hi!!! Just to remind everyone, it is the last Saturday of each month at the corner (essentially) of Aviation and Marine officially starting about 7:30 but actually starting about 6:00 AM in the sellers parking lot. From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Feb 14 20:22:40 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: Anyone Out There With a Sun 4/110? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Feb 14, 2000 06:48:15 PM Message-ID: <200002150222.SAA25683@fraser.sfu.ca> > I don't have such a machine, but line filters are rarely complex, and > I've never seen one that has any really odd features. You're welcome to > e-mail me (or post to the list) describing the fault and why you think > the filter is the problem, and I'll see what I can think up. 120 VAC in and 0 V out. No internal fuses. Sealed unit, may no longer be available. It's an SRE brand, model F15352. About 2" cubic with a green (presumably) "power OK" LED, which doesn't come on anymore. I added 12 MB to the machine, I think that the additional current draw may have done it. The machine has had only 8 MB in it for 12 years. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Feb 14 21:13:45 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: Finally! Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000214191312.022f1620@mcmanis.com> I finally scored a working TD Systems Viking QTD SCSI controller for Q-Bus. --Chuck From rcini at msn.com Mon Feb 14 21:22:48 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: OT: HTML question Message-ID: <007b01bf7764$086169e0$6464a8c0@office1> Hello, all: I'm not too familiar with HTML, but I'm guessing that this question is e asy to answer. What's the code to open a new browser window when someone clicks on a li nk? I want a new window to open with the requested page as the open document . Thanks. Rich [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 15 03:04:10 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: Western Digital WD 1002S-SHD card ??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000215040410.3ebf8be2@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I visited a surplus dealer today and picked up an external hard drive case that he was throwing out. The case has a Seagate 225 drive in it with some kind of Western Digital interface card. The card has MFM connection on one end and a 50 pin header on the other. The header is connected to a cable that had a SCSI type plug on it. Does anyone know if the card is a SCSI to MFM interface or what? Joe From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Feb 14 22:24:24 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: Western Digital WD 1002S-SHD card ??? Message-ID: <200002150424.XAA14051@world.std.com> < I visited a surplus dealer today and picked up an external hard drive Does anyone know how to connect an ASR-33 Teletype to a DG Nova 2? Also, does anyone know the communications settings for the Nova 2? I have a ADM-3A Terminal, and according to a book that came with my Nova, my particular machine was host to one. Thanks, Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000214/caf2d269/attachment.html From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Feb 14 23:37:42 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Question In-Reply-To: <001d01bf7770$f49c7500$4c703ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000214213742.00945ea0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 22:55 14-02-2000 -0600, you wrote: >>>> Does anyone know how to connect an ASR-33 Teletype to a DG Nova 2? Also, does <<<< Well, lessee here... I used to fix 33's, and 28's, and 35's, and most other machines in the 'Teletype' line before they went all electronic. Most 33's had a 20mA current-loop interface. Said interface was usually full-duplex: One loop for TX, the other for RX (four wires total), though this was not always the case. Some of the later models had an option for an RS232 interface, though it's been too many years since I've seen one to guess at its composition. I hope that helps. Unfortunately, I know nothing about the DG. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From blakeman at creative-net.net Mon Feb 14 12:08:43 2000 From: blakeman at creative-net.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: OT: HTML question Message-ID: <38a8ed6b.1697.0@creative-net.net> Not too sre as I don't memorize but there is acrapload of info and ideas up at http://www.htmlhelp.com that you might be interested in. Opening another window from that one huh? Sounds like you're building a porno site (grin) >Hello, all: > > I'm not too familiar with HTML, but I'm guessing that this question is e >asy to answer. > > What's the code to open a new browser window when someone clicks on a li >nk? I want a new window to open with the requested page as the open document >. > >Thanks. >Rich > >[ Rich Cini/WUGNET >[ ClubWin!/CW1 >[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >[ Collector of "classic" computers >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ ><================ reply separator =================> > > > > From donm at cts.com Tue Feb 15 00:19:46 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: Western Digital WD 1002S-SHD card ??? In-Reply-To: <200002150424.XAA14051@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Allison J Parent wrote: > > < I visited a surplus dealer today and picked up an external hard drive > > Well St225 is MFM so the card is either a host to MFM bridge or SCSI(SASI) > to MFM bridge. > > The real answer is a part number on the card like WD1002-HDO (host interface > number). Someone else may be able to confrm if the SHD is SASI or at that > time early SCSI. TheRef45A says that it is SASI to ST-412. - don > Allison > > From g at kurico.com Tue Feb 15 00:41:23 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: OT: HTML question In-Reply-To: <38a8ed6b.1697.0@creative-net.net> Message-ID: > I'm not too familiar with HTML, but I'm guessing that this > question is easy to answer. > What's the code to open a new browser window when someone clicks > on a link? I want a new window to open with the requested page as the open > document just add TARGET="_blank" to your link. George From thomas.h.lindberg at se.abb.com Tue Feb 15 01:18:55 2000 From: thomas.h.lindberg at se.abb.com (thomas.h.lindberg@se.abb.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: DEC memory modules available Message-ID: <41256886.00282F00.00@smtp02.seinf.abb.se> HI, I found four DEC memory modules in a lab drawer the other day. No markings that make sense to me but possibly to someone else: On the PCB side 1: Side 1 50-20612-01 Rev A01 LPWR BE3-0 On side 1 in screen print: 27391 6868-3 (placed in the order: LPWR 27391 BE3-0 6868-3) On the PCB side 2: Side 2 There are nine memory chips on each side, type HM514100AS8, plus a 74F541D. 4 Mbits per chip? 8 Mbyte plus parity per module? Dimension 111.81 mm * 28.00 mm Available for freight (from Sweden) plus what the receiver feel thay are worth. Thomas From edick at idcomm.com Tue Feb 15 01:30:11 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: Western Digital WD 1002S-SHD card ??? Message-ID: <000e01bf7786$7ea48f20$0400c0a8@winbook> This board is a SASI board made primarily to tap into the market grown around the XEBEC and OMTI boards. ADAPTEC somewhat later came out with a series (40xx) which later pretty much owned the market. They were all more or less similar, but none were "real" SCSI, in that (A) they didn't cave a firmly established common command set, and (b) they didn't use all of the soon-to-become-standard SCSI signals, certainly not entirely in the same way. By the time the standard was accepted, it was mostly the ADAPTEC feature set that won out. Nevertheless, Joe, you'll find that card can help you quite a little with putting a hard disk in place on your old CP/M systems. This can be helped along with a "back-end-driver" which installs itself under CP/M as an autocommand. This sits above the BIOS, hence uses a 2-k lower system than it would without it, but makes your SCSI hardware portable from one system to another. That's pretty handy in itself. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, February 14, 2000 11:26 PM Subject: Re: Western Digital WD 1002S-SHD card ??? > > >On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Allison J Parent wrote: > >> >> < I visited a surplus dealer today and picked up an external hard drive >> > > > > > >> Well St225 is MFM so the card is either a host to MFM bridge or SCSI(SASI) >> to MFM bridge. >> >> The real answer is a part number on the card like WD1002-HDO (host interface >> number). Someone else may be able to confrm if the SHD is SASI or at that >> time early SCSI. > >TheRef45A says that it is SASI to ST-412. > > - don > >> Allison >> >> > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Feb 15 02:14:57 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: Decserver 100 References: <38a8ed6b.1697.0@creative-net.net> Message-ID: <013d01bf778c$c03fd9c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Anyone know where to find the necessary file(s) to boot a Decserver 100 from a Vax running VMS? I can only seem to find stuff for Decserver 200's & 300's. Advthanksance Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Feb 15 02:58:14 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: <007b01bf7764$086169e0$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: In my recent salvage digging a couple books came home with me; Digital MicroPDP-11 Hardware Information, book sized notebook thing in a sleeve. Copyright is 1987, and it appears to be about what goes in a BA213 chassis. IEEE International conference on circuits and computers, ICCC 82, proceedings. 632 phone book sized pages of pure geek pleasure. I like to get about $5 and postage for interesting books I offer first to the list, but I am happy to entertain ridiculous offers with the caveat that the firstest closest to $5 gets the book, and if no offer suits me its eBay. SPRING CLEANING I was thinking it might be interesting if we picked a day, say 3/1/2000, and everybody on the list digs through there stored treasures and in one fell swoop we post lists of stuff we want to sell or get rid of. Kind of a hamfest for the whole list. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Feb 15 04:57:50 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: OT: HTML question In-Reply-To: <007b01bf7764$086169e0$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: <200002150958.KAA04848@mail2.siemens.de> > I'm not too familiar with HTML, but I'm guessing that this question is e > asy to answer. > What's the code to open a new browser window when someone clicks on a li > nk? I want a new window to open with the requested page as the open document AFAIR it's the TARGET= parameter inside the A tag. You're about to build a screen spam site ? If I want to have a page in a seperate window I'll open one. Gruss H. -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue Feb 15 05:00:54 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: couple of books, spring cleaning References: Message-ID: <38A931E5.76B46EE0@arrl.net> If no one has come forward for the hardware manual, I'll meet your price on that. I have a BA213 work-in-progress so that would definitely be useful. Let me know shipping to 77095. Thanks Nick Mike Ford wrote: > In my recent salvage digging a couple books came home with me; > > Digital MicroPDP-11 Hardware Information, book sized notebook thing in a > sleeve. Copyright is 1987, and it appears to be about what goes in a BA213 > chassis. > > IEEE International conference on circuits and computers, ICCC 82, > proceedings. 632 phone book sized pages of pure geek pleasure. > > I like to get about $5 and postage for interesting books I offer first to > the list, but I am happy to entertain ridiculous offers with the caveat > that the firstest closest to $5 gets the book, and if no offer suits me its > eBay. > > SPRING CLEANING > I was thinking it might be interesting if we picked a day, say 3/1/2000, > and everybody on the list digs through there stored treasures and in one > fell swoop we post lists of stuff we want to sell or get rid of. Kind of a > hamfest for the whole list. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 15 07:51:57 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <007b01bf7764$086169e0$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000215085157.211f63b4@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:58 AM 2/15/00 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: > >SPRING CLEANING >I was thinking it might be interesting if we picked a day, say 3/1/2000, >and everybody on the list digs through there stored treasures and in one >fell swoop we post lists of stuff we want to sell or get rid of. Kind of a >hamfest for the whole list. > Sounds like fun. We can call it a virtual hamfest. Joe From KB9VU at aol.com Tue Feb 15 07:02:48 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: Western Digital WD 1002S-SHD card ??? Message-ID: In a message dated 2/15/00 00:26:40 Central Standard Time, donm@cts.com writes: > > > > < I visited a surplus dealer today and picked up an external hard drive > > > o > > > > > > > Well St225 is MFM so the card is either a host to MFM bridge or SCSI(SASI) > > to MFM bridge. > > > > The real answer is a part number on the card like WD1002-HDO (host > interface > > number). Someone else may be able to confrm if the SHD is SASI or at that > > > time early SCSI. > > TheRef45A says that it is SASI to ST-412. > > - don > Most of the early Heath/Zenith Hard Drive set ups manufactured by after market suppliers used the XEBEC controllers on the hard drives and interfaced to an SCSI card in the computer. The 50 pin female header connected to a 50 pin male header on the SCSI card in my H-89's. There were other schemes, one involving a Western Digital PC controller mounted on the ST-225 and an interface decoder card on the left buss in the H-89. I would bet that the HD described was interfaced to an SCSI card though. Just my .02 worth. YMMV Mike From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Feb 15 07:11:15 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: Western Digital WD 1002S-SHD card ??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000215040410.3ebf8be2@mailhost.intellistar.net> from Joe at "Feb 15, 2000 04:04:10 am" Message-ID: <200002151311.IAA48185@bg-tc-ppp436.monmouth.com> > Hi, > > I visited a surplus dealer today and picked up an external hard drive > case that he was throwing out. The case has a Seagate 225 drive in it with > some kind of Western Digital interface card. The card has MFM connection on > one end and a 50 pin header on the other. The header is connected to a > cable that had a SCSI type plug on it. Does anyone know if the card is a > SCSI to MFM interface or what? > > Joe Sounds like one. Omti, Emulex and WD made them for a while. Bill From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Feb 15 09:45:59 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000215085157.211f63b4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: Nah, gotta use the current buzzwords: eHamfest. On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Joe wrote: > At 12:58 AM 2/15/00 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: > > > >SPRING CLEANING > >I was thinking it might be interesting if we picked a day, say 3/1/2000, > >and everybody on the list digs through there stored treasures and in one > >fell swoop we post lists of stuff we want to sell or get rid of. Kind of a > >hamfest for the whole list. > > > Sounds like fun. We can call it a virtual hamfest. > > Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 15 11:16:15 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: Western Digital WD 1002S-SHD card ??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000215121615.3d2fe1ee@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:02 AM 2/15/00 EST, Mike wrote: >In a message dated 2/15/00 00:26:40 Central Standard Time, donm@cts.com >writes: > >> > >> > < I visited a surplus dealer today and picked up an external hard drive >> > with >> > connection >> o >> > > > > > > > >> > Well St225 is MFM so the card is either a host to MFM bridge or >SCSI(SASI) >> > to MFM bridge. >> > >> > The real answer is a part number on the card like WD1002-HDO (host >> interface >> > number). Someone else may be able to confrm if the SHD is SASI or at >that >> >> > time early SCSI. >> >> TheRef45A says that it is SASI to ST-412. >> >> - don >> > >Most of the early Heath/Zenith Hard Drive set ups manufactured by after >market suppliers used the XEBEC controllers on the hard drives and interfaced >to an SCSI card in the computer. The 50 pin female header connected to a 50 >pin male header on the SCSI card in my H-89's. There were other schemes, one >involving a Western Digital PC controller mounted on the ST-225 and an >interface decoder card on the left buss in the H-89. I would bet that the HD >described was interfaced to an SCSI card though. > >Just my .02 worth. YMMV > > It would be great if I could make it work with my Z-100! Any suggestions? I have an original hard drive controller and data separator cards for the Z-100 but I found them buried in the dirt in a scrap yard and they're in poor condition. The controller card is a S-100 card and the data separator card is a small card that mounted on top of the drive. FWIW I just bought some Zenith technical manuals and I think there's a manual in there for the XEBEC card as used in the Z-89. Joe From wrking at tsoft.com Tue Feb 15 10:51:28 2000 From: wrking at tsoft.com (William King) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: DEC M7551 question Message-ID: <000101bf77d4$e721fe40$c001a8c0@example.com> I recently acquired a DEC M7551 (4Mb memory) board for my 11/23+. I installed the board, but the system traps while doing the power-on memory test. Unfortunately, I don't have any documentation for the board and I'm not sure if I have the jumpers/switches set correctly. It could be that the board is just dead, but I'd like make sure before I give up. If someone could forward me the settings, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Bill King From dogas at leading.net Tue Feb 15 10:57:30 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning Message-ID: <01bf77d5$bf09e7a0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> >Nah, gotta use the current buzzwords: eHamfest. The web page that becomes the front door to this eHamfest can dynamically scramble the anchors to each of the ventor pages kinda creating a random walk through the sales floor from our browsers... oops, nevermind ;) Mike: dogas@leading.net From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Feb 15 11:24:08 2000 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning References: <01bf77d5$bf09e7a0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: <38A98BB8.675BBA4A@olf.com> Mike wrote: > >Nah, gotta use the current buzzwords: eHamfest. > > The web page that becomes the front door to this eHamfest can dynamically > scramble the anchors to each of the ventor pages kinda creating a random > walk through the sales floor from our browsers... oops, nevermind > Use VRML to design a true virtual reality hamfest :-) Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From jallain at databaseamerica.com Tue Feb 15 11:44:58 2000 From: jallain at databaseamerica.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: (DG/ADM) ASR-33 Question In-Reply-To: <001d01bf7770$f49c7500$4c703ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <000001bf77dc$61647ff0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Owen Robertson asked: > various ASR-33/DG Nova/ADM-3A connectivity questions. For the record, Many, many terminals in the 70's and 80's were all co-compatible. The two standards involved here are current loop and RS-232. I'll let others talk about current loop. RS-232 can be regarded as basically PC serial (hope nobody loses lunch over the PC reference) using a 25 pin instead of 9 pin connector. Most terminals and mini's were all RS232 that I dealt with. (current loop tended to look real different -- four screw terminals, not pins) The bottom line I'd like to reach here is that It doesn't HAVE to be an ADM to work with the DG. There were dozens of other manufacturers. It can even be a PC running ?Kermit? with the appropriate connector. Next? John A. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Feb 15 12:11:57 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: DEC M7551 question Message-ID: <000215131157.25601c82@trailing-edge.com> >I recently acquired a DEC M7551 (4Mb memory) board for my 11/23+. I >installed the board, but the system traps while doing the power-on memory >test. Unfortunately, I don't have any documentation for the board and I'm >not sure if I have the jumpers/switches set correctly. It could be that the >board is just dead, but I'd like make sure before I give up. If someone >could forward me the settings, it would be greatly appreciated. Are you sure it's a 4 Mbyte (M7551-CA) board? If it's a 2 Mbyte (-BA) or a 1 Mbyte (-AA) board then it's very possible that it's jumpered for some other starting location than zero. And your CPU self-test is expecting memory starting at zero. If you can get to ODT ("@" prompt), try doing some examines of various locations, i.e. "0/", etc., and see if you get anything. If the board isn't responding at "0/", try higher addresses and see if it's living there. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dburrows at netpath.net Tue Feb 15 12:06:53 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: DEC M7551 question Message-ID: <0a3901bf77df$a9e1c0a0$a652e780@L166> I use them on 11/73's with all switches off. Dan Subject: DEC M7551 question >I recently acquired a DEC M7551 (4Mb memory) board for my 11/23+. I >installed the board, but the system traps while doing the power-on memory >test. Unfortunately, I don't have any documentation for the board and I'm >not sure if I have the jumpers/switches set correctly. It could be that the >board is just dead, but I'd like make sure before I give up. If someone >could forward me the settings, it would be greatly appreciated. > >Thanks, >Bill King From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Feb 15 10:51:00 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning References: <007b01bf7764$086169e0$6464a8c0@office1> <3.0.1.16.20000215085157.211f63b4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <003401bf77e1$09cc63c0$24d893c3@proteus> Hi, > Sounds like fun. We can call it a virtual hamfest. Sounds good to me too, I've got a bunch of stuff I'm trying to get rid of. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 15 13:24:00 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000215085157.211f63b4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:45 AM 2/15/00 -0800, you wrote: >Nah, gotta use the current buzzwords: eHamfest. I thought "Virtual" was the lastest buzz word? Oops! Ok that was last week! :-) Joe > >On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Joe wrote: > >> At 12:58 AM 2/15/00 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >> > >> >SPRING CLEANING >> >I was thinking it might be interesting if we picked a day, say 3/1/2000, >> >and everybody on the list digs through there stored treasures and in one >> >fell swoop we post lists of stuff we want to sell or get rid of. Kind of a >> >hamfest for the whole list. >> > >> Sounds like fun. We can call it a virtual hamfest. >> >> Joe >> > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Feb 15 12:36:31 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: Unibus Terminators available Message-ID: Got the following yesterday, and since I'm not in need of any he OK'd me sending this to the list. Please contact the original author, not me, if interested. Zane From: "J. Darren Peterson" >I've got three PDP boards new (unopened) in box. The vendor label says >M9312 , but on each box that part number has been scratched through and >the number M9301 written over it. Either way, you can have them for the >cost of shipping if you want. Let me know. > >J. Darren | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Feb 15 14:12:57 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: You volunteering for Transportation Coordinator, Mike????? It's a dirty job, but somebody....... Cheers John KB6SCO PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 14:40:48 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning Message-ID: <20000215204048.16408.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Lawson wrote: > John KB6SCO > > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? Ethan Dicks - N8TVD -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Feb 15 14:44:37 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: ; from jpl15@netcom.com on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800 References: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000215154437.A15158@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800, John Lawson wrote: > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? I'll bet it's a pretty high percentage... DE KC1P/2 John Wilson D Bit From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 15 14:45:45 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: ; from John Lawson on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800 References: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000215134545.D21397@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800, John Lawson wrote: > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? KB7PWD (but I don't dit and dah, I'm one of those abominous no-code techs) -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From dburrows at netpath.net Tue Feb 15 14:50:30 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning Message-ID: <0aa801bf77f6$b9c24500$a652e780@L166> >John KB6SCO > > >PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or >so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? WB9DCX Dan From jallain at databaseamerica.com Tue Feb 15 15:02:10 2000 From: jallain at databaseamerica.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: <20000215154437.A15158@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <001401bf77f7$edb71790$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800, John Lawson wrote: > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? I have to have a LOT of respect for Hams. They have given me many great swap meets over the years. Also THX to the WRPI Video Lab annex --great playground. John A. Morse-Challenged. My radio? Cobra 900?Hhz Hand unit. $25 at "Staples" From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Feb 15 15:08:22 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers Message-ID: <20000215.150822.-314645.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> QRZ Jeff KH6JJN (GENERAL since 1977) On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:12:57 -0800 (PST) John Lawson writes: > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From kees.stravers at iae.nl Tue Feb 15 15:49:13 2000 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers Message-ID: <20000215214913.A170820F08@mail.iae.nl> On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:12:57 -0800 (PST) John Lawson writes: > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? 73 de Kees PB0AIA from JO21SK (That's the southern part of The Netherlands). Do I get a QSL card now? hi, or :-) confusing which symbols to use now! -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ My home page http://www.vaxarchive.org/ Info on old DEC VAX computers Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue Feb 15 15:53:26 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release Message-ID: <01BF77D5.2E7DD0C0.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Tuesday, February 08, 2000 7:33 PM, Stan Sieler [SMTP:ss@allegro.com] wrote: > Hi, > > If you have a Classic HP 3000 (any two-digit model #), > and if you received the "Y2K Safe" release of MPE recently, > and if you haven't installed it yet, > I have some notes that you should find interesting. > > (If you didn't get your Y2K Safe MPE V (which was free!), > email Allan Hertling at allan_hertling@hp.com) > > Thanks for the info Stan, I sent an email to Allan asking about the upgrade and he was EXTREMELY helpful. My system (HP 3000/42 Classic) did not have any patches applied for a very long time so, he's gonna send the whole package. The best part is it's absolutely FREE! All in all, HP has been extremely helpful in providing upgrades for my 3000 and 9000s. Steve Robertson - From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 15 15:56:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers In-Reply-To: <20000215.150822.-314645.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? Not Ham. Commercial Radiotelephone, used to do the two way radio racket. Allison From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Feb 15 20:48:06 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: ham radio? Message-ID: Hello, fellow OM's yes, I are a ham too, but don't send the code stuff. Now that the FCC had deregulated things, the majority of hams will NOT know Morse Code. didididahdidah CB radio has now infiltrated our ranks -- but us scrungers live on in cyberspace, or is that at a virtual hamfest where people still build things . . . Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP licenced 32 years this June From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 15 16:03:40 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: Re: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning (John Wilson) References: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> <20000215154437.A15158@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <14505.52540.550403.810924@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 15, John Wilson wrote: > On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800, John Lawson wrote: > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? > > I'll bet it's a pretty high percentage... Probably so. I'm formerly KA2UZK, expired, but hoping to re-test and renew this spring. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 15 16:05:26 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: ham radio? In-Reply-To: ham radio? (Gary Hildebrand) References: Message-ID: <14505.52646.860204.435327@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 15, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > yes, I are a ham too, but don't send the code stuff. Now that the FCC had > deregulated things, the majority of hams will NOT know Morse Code. Hey...all hope is not lost, there. I know *I* really enjoy CW; I can't imagine I'm the only one. It's fun, and that will never change! -Dave McGuire From go at ao.com Tue Feb 15 16:09:43 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000215140607.035935b0@buffy.ao.com> >PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or >so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? Me too! Mostly hf (soon as I get my antennas back up) and soon RTTY (again). Some vhf, but most of my gear needs new batteries.. And to stay on topic: none of my hf gear is less than 10 years old - including the computers I use with it. Gary wa7shi From marvin at rain.org Mon Feb 14 16:19:23 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning References: Message-ID: <38A87F6B.6E12DE8F@rain.org> John Lawson wrote: > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? If there are any physically active hams out there, take a look at http://www.homingin.com. John knows about my interest in ARDF, and we are still looking for people to help round out the US ARDF team for the World Championships that will be held Oct. 13 - 18 in Nanjing, China. End of OT plug. In response to the reply about hams not needing to know Morse code anymore, that is not correct except for the new Technician entry level class; all others need only 5 WPM though. Marvin, KE6HTS (soon to be an Extra shortly after April 15, 2000!) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Feb 15 15:58:03 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > You volunteering for Transportation Coordinator, Mike????? > > > It's a dirty job, but somebody....... > > > > Cheers > >John KB6SCO > > >PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or >so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? WHAT! You aren't suggesting we let those guys with the weird radios mix with our vintage computers at this hamfest are you? Maybe we should consider creating/hijacking a alt.hamfest newsgroup? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Feb 15 15:53:52 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.20000215085157.211f63b4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: >At 07:45 AM 2/15/00 -0800, you wrote: >>Nah, gotta use the current buzzwords: eHamfest. > > I thought "Virtual" was the lastest buzz word? Oops! Ok that was last >week! :-) Nuts, I just checked www.hamfest.com This Domain: hamfest.com is for sale for $2000.00 call 888-480-4200 ask for Hank From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Feb 15 17:28:37 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:01 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000215085157.211f63b4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <200002152229.XAA01678@mail2.siemens.de> > Nah, gotta use the current buzzwords: eHamfest. To late, eHamfest.com is already taken. (And best of all, stroll to feedback and look the textfile :) Gruss h. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mac at Wireless.Com Tue Feb 15 16:43:34 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: ham radio? In-Reply-To: <14505.52646.860204.435327@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: Isn't is amazing? Two trailing-edge hobbies: ham radio and collecting old computers. Coincidence? ;-) -Mike (who's been licensed since 1966...) From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Feb 15 16:48:21 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers In-Reply-To: ; from allisonp@world.std.com on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 04:56:17PM -0500 References: <20000215.150822.-314645.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <20000215174821.A15537@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 04:56:17PM -0500, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > Not Ham. Commercial Radiotelephone, used to do the two way radio racket. So what did you do? Analog *and* digital, I'm impressed! I got the "general" radiotelephone ticket (used to be called "2nd class") on the first testing day after they eliminated 1st class and changed the rules (hmm, this would be early 1980s), but never got a radio job or otherwise had any practical use for it. I was really proud of getting a low serial # as a result of the rule change, but then I was late renewing it and lost the low #, went from PG-1-7 to PG-1-18665, I felt like such an idiot!!! Of course now they last for life anyway. The exam took me several tries to pass, it was *much* harder than the ham exams. But I got lucky, even after the rules change the Boston FCC office was still using old tests (the one I finally passed was dated 1968) which covered tubes but not transistors, good thing because my books were old too and didn't cover transistors well at all. Does anyone know if the commercial radiotelegraph licenses still exist? I used to want to get one but there were age restrictions on at least some of them (maybe just 1st class?) and you needed a passport photo and I think an appointment, and generally it sounded like more of a pain than the 'phone stuff (where you just showed up off the street at the Customs House and gave the test a whirl). I'm sure I'd need a *lot* of tries to pass the commercial code test though, some of the ham ones took a few tries. I still have that plodding recorded FCC voice etched in my memory "write your naammmmmme, the date, and the speeeeeed of this test" from all those ^*!(#^@%^ tests... John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Feb 15 17:00:55 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: ham radio? In-Reply-To: <14505.52646.860204.435327@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 05:05:26PM -0500 References: <14505.52646.860204.435327@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000215180055.B15537@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 05:05:26PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > Hey...all hope is not lost, there. I know *I* really enjoy CW; I > can't imagine I'm the only one. It's fun, and that will never change! I agree, although it's been a few years... Morse is great, you can use *much* simpler equipment and get a readable signal through worse conditions with less power. My main rig, last time I lived some place with a yard big enough for wire antennas, was a CW-only Heath HW16, it was great. So simple that even a doofus like me had some inkling of how it worked. This may sound elitist but I really liked the fact that ham licenses had the Morse code requirement, because it kept out the riff-raff. Forcing people to learn to translate a cipher in their heads real time required a certain amount of commitment, so by the time they got a license, they really valued it and acted a lot more mature as a result. Meanwhile you could get a CB license just by mailing $4 (or not even, once the FCC got busted for charging fees), but of course that turned into 40 channels of impenetrable noise. Hmm, what was the name of that guy who decided that having a ham license w/o bothering to learn anything first was some kind of god-given right, so he started using the freedom of information act to find out the answers to the FCC tests and published them in books? I hope something bad happened to him by now... John Wilson D Bit From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Feb 15 16:58:50 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (mcquiggi@sfu.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers Message-ID: <200002152258.OAA17823@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> I'm a ham, have been licenced since 1977. I'm VE7ZD, ex VE7CPT. Active on HF (CW, SSB, RTTY), VHF, UHF (FM, SSB, Moonbounce, packet, satellites). 73, Kevin From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue Feb 15 17:09:21 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers Message-ID: <01BF77DF.C90DF250.steverob@hotoffice.com> > I got the "general" radiotelephone ticket (used to be called "2nd class") on > the first testing day after they eliminated 1st class and changed the rules > (hmm, this would be early 1980s), but never got a radio job or otherwise > had any practical use for it. I earned my first class license in 1975. Never got a job in the industry so, I let it lapse. Still have the certificate laying around here ... somewhere... Steve Robertson - From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Feb 15 22:23:41 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: FCC licences Message-ID: Hello fellow hams and others, Besides having a ham licence, I also had a First Class Radiotelephone, until the FCC deregulated that as well back in 1985. Now it is just a General Radiotelephone licence, which is required only in a handful of circumstances. And then try to get one today!! The exam is given under a similar structure as the ham licence VEC program, but not the same. And it costs $100+ for an attempt. It's too bad the FCC ran short of money and had to curtail a lot of its activities. Now I just call then the Gettysburg Address. Gary Hildebrand From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Feb 15 17:52:33 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: <01BF77D5.2E7DD0C0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: Seconded! I don't think "helpful" comes close to describing his attitude! I think HP is a model for how classy a giant computer company can really be. Their attitude toward us home enthusiasts is, "well, we had the software ready for someone to use...why not send it out to hobbyists for free as well!" I could hardly believe that they not only offered me the full install set (full subsys tapes, everything), but then he's including extra system manuals and tips on avoiding installation pitfalls as well! I am absolutely blown away...thanks again, Stan... Cheers, Aaron On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: > On Tuesday, February 08, 2000 7:33 PM, Stan Sieler [SMTP:ss@allegro.com] > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > If you have a Classic HP 3000 (any two-digit model #), > > and if you received the "Y2K Safe" release of MPE recently, > > and if you haven't installed it yet, > > I have some notes that you should find interesting. > > > > (If you didn't get your Y2K Safe MPE V (which was free!), > > email Allan Hertling at allan_hertling@hp.com) > > > > > > Thanks for the info Stan, > > I sent an email to Allan asking about the upgrade and he was EXTREMELY > helpful. My system (HP 3000/42 Classic) did not have any patches applied > for a very long time so, he's gonna send the whole package. The best part > is it's absolutely FREE! > > All in all, HP has been extremely helpful in providing upgrades for my 3000 > and 9000s. > > Steve Robertson - > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Feb 15 17:57:09 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning References: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> <20000215154437.A15158@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <006001bf7810$b7b89380$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Wednesday, 16 February 2000 7:14 Subject: Re: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning > On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800, John Lawson wrote: > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? Guilty as charged. DE VK5KDR 73 Geoff Roberts From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Feb 15 18:07:29 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning References: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> <20000215154437.A15158@dbit.dbit.com> <14505.52540.550403.810924@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <007f01bf7812$4a0a59c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave McGuire To: Sent: Wednesday, 16 February 2000 8:33 Subject: Re: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning > Probably so. I'm formerly KA2UZK, expired, but hoping to re-test > and renew this spring. You have to be retested if your license expires? Different. When we pass the exams for the various licenses here, you are issued with a "Certificate of Proficiency", and you quote the certificate number(s) when you apply for a license. The certificates are good for life. I have 2, 1 for Novice (similar to yours I think) and 1 for Limited. (sorta like Technician?) Different system. I did morse @ 5wpm to get my novice, Limited is same as full call, minus morse, so I only need morse @ 10wpm to get my full license. (Full call is the top of the list - we don't have extra class or anything like it) You only need a retest if you have had your license/certificate cancelled for some reason, (and usually not even then - it's an option they can throw at you) or some (detected!) major on air stuffup. Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Feb 15 18:18:44 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Hams In-Reply-To: <006001bf7810$b7b89380$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from Geoff Roberts at "Feb 16, 2000 10:27:09 am" Message-ID: <200002160018.TAA49130@bg-tc-ppp757.monmouth.com> > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800, John Lawson wrote: > > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > > > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? > > Guilty as charged. > > DE VK5KDR > > > 73 > > Geoff Roberts > > > Actually, it's not a surprise that there's a significant number of Hams in the Classic Computer ranks... Who do you think built the early computer kits in the first place... My wife dared me to take the test a couple of years ago... so I dared her back... She's now N2VIS. Bill N2RDI ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 15 18:13:44 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning Message-ID: <200002160013.TAA23542@world.std.com> > Not Ham. Commercial Radiotelephone, used to do the two way radio racket < from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "Feb 15, 2000 04:56:17 pm" Message-ID: <200002160023.TAA49230@bg-tc-ppp757.monmouth.com> > > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > > > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? > > > Not Ham. Commercial Radiotelephone, used to do the two way radio racket. > > > Allison > > > That was a tough test. When getting out of tech school before going to DEC I took it and just missed the score by one question. Never followed up on taking it again (already had the 3rd class for college radio DJ work)... Spent the rest of my time with Digital and couldn't draw a Colpitts (IIRC) Osc. if my life depended on it any more. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Feb 15 18:49:55 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: ham radio? Message-ID: <20000215.184957.39.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:00:55 -0500 John Wilson writes: >Hmm, what was the name of that guy who decided that having a ham >license w/o bothering to learn anything first was some kind of god-given >right, so he started using the freedom of information act to find out the >answers to the FCC tests and published them in books? I hope something bad >happened to him by now... I think someone hit him with the Wouff-hong. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue Feb 15 18:56:24 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning References: Message-ID: <38A9F5B8.3D303AA5@arrl.net> John Lawson wrote: > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? Not a ham..... a long time SWL and boatanchor collector. Learned morse during my beacon-chaser phase. One of these days will get the motivation to climb that tree and restore my storm damaged antenna. Nick From KB9VU at aol.com Tue Feb 15 19:05:20 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning Message-ID: --... ...-- Mike Stover, KB9VU CCA# 404 MARS AFA3BO Florissant, MO From rcini at msn.com Tue Feb 15 19:06:37 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: OT: HTML question Message-ID: <003c01bf781d$3a5b2620$6464a8c0@office1> Hello, all: I assure all of you that my intentions for an automatic window are honor able! No porno at all (although I hear that it's a lucrative site to run :-) ) Here's what I don't like. On my site, when you click the link for the My 6502 project, you wind up having two navigation columns on the left hand sid e. I think that it looks funny. So, I wanted to have that link open up in an other browser window. Thanks for the help. Rich [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 15 19:33:02 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Anyone Out There With a Sun 4/110? In-Reply-To: <200002150222.SAA25683@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Feb 14, 0 06:22:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2048 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000216/193788b6/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 15 19:37:47 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers In-Reply-To: <20000215.150822.-314645.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000215173747.00941a50@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 15:08 15-02-2000 -0600, you wrote: >QRZ > >Jeff KH6JJN (GENERAL since 1977) Ditto. QRZ de WD6EOS, original Tech class (code and all) since December of '77. Also FCC General Radiotelephone (same as 2nd Class Commercial), WITH Radar endorsement, since Nov. of '82. And this is a surprise, how? ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 15 19:36:57 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Question In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000214213742.00945ea0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from "Bruce Lane" at Feb 14, 0 09:37:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1119 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000216/e346d498/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 15 19:44:19 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: ham radio? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000215174419.009589d0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 21:48 15-02-2000 -0500, you wrote: >CB radio has now infiltrated our ranks -- but us scrungers live on in >cyberspace, or is that at a virtual hamfest where people still build things I don't really see it that way, Gary. I see it instead as a big opportunity to "Elmer" a bunch of new blood into the hobby. I would also point out that the "death of 2 meters" (not my words) was predicted when the FCC dropped the code requirement for Tech. As far as I can tell, it didn't happen. 2 meters in the Seattle area is (with the occasional exception, quickly tracked down and dealt with) pretty well behaved. The fact that hamateur rigs cost much more than CB sets will help to weed out those who are really serious about the hobby, and those who are just "lookie-loos." I would also like to think that the upcoming revisions in the tests will make it difficult, if not impossible, to pass just by rote memorization. This means questions that require some level of actual electronics knowledge. I say let's wait to see what happens before disaster is expected. 73 de WD6EOS (eligible for QCWA membership in two years). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From rcini at msn.com Tue Feb 15 19:42:32 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <004701bf781f$54c3ca60$6464a8c0@office1> Here's another question...does anyone have a pointer to the source code for a 6502-based BASIC interpreter that's ROMable? Rich [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> From emu at ecubics.com Tue Feb 15 19:54:19 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Maxtor xt8760 drives References: <0a3901bf77df$a9e1c0a0$a652e780@L166> Message-ID: <009c01bf7820$c71c4af0$5d01a8c0@p2350> Hi, Anybody here knows, what the difference is between the xt-8760E and xt-8760EF version ? (ESDI Drives ...) cheers, emanuel From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Feb 16 01:14:25 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: ham radio Message-ID: I do remember Dick Bash, KL7??? who started the whole licencing uproar. I think he finally got his tech licence pulled for some silly reason. Yes, I love them boat anchors too. Hollow state technology with the warm glow of filaments is so nostalgic. I personally will have a boat anchor station set up. Drake 2B and a Central Electronics 100V transmitter tied into a Johnson Desk Kilowatt. I heven have the Ranger exciter to run it as a KW plate modulated if necessary (now illegal). Yes, I do have rice boxes as well, but there is no challenge to those. But they are nice mobile. I challenge all of you out there to get a ham licence, no code or even the 5 wpm. The 5 wpm is no barrier -- anyone can learn that in a few weeks a couple nights a week. C U on the bands . . . Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP .__ ._ __... _._ _._ .__. ._. collector of old General Electric Progress Line radios and anything else that glows in the dark From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Feb 15 20:59:21 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers In-Reply-To: <20000215.150822.-314645.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000215215547.00b79ca0@206.231.8.2> Not a ham yet but plan on it in next several years. Had my ticket back in mid-70's but never got too active and let it lapse (ex-WB2WAO). Besides, I've got enough BA's and WWII/Korea-vintage military gear in the collection to keep me busy in restoring and listening for several years to come. :-) 73s, Chris -- -- Upon the date 03:08 PM 2/15/00 -0600, Jeffrey l Kaneko said something like: > >QRZ > >Jeff KH6JJN (GENERAL since 1977) > > >On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:12:57 -0800 (PST) John Lawson >writes: >> PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or >> so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? > >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Feb 15 21:10:58 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: ham radio? In-Reply-To: <20000215.184957.39.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>; from jeff.kaneko@juno.com on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 06:49:55PM -0600 References: <20000215.184957.39.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <20000215221058.A17961@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 06:49:55PM -0600, jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > I think someone hit him with the Wouff-hong. Geez, it's been waaaay too long, what's that again? And I forget what a Wollongong (sp?) is too... John Wilson KC1P (formerly KA1BNJ from Sep '78 -- Bad News John!) D Bit From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 21:09:10 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning Message-ID: <20000216030910.15692.qmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Allison J Parent wrote: > Yes the restructure made code a requirement for general and extra only and > the tech is expanded. If I can pony up at least 5wpm I plan to go for the > general, if not the tech as I can pass the technical elements in my sleep > and the rules aren't all that bad. I'm personally looking forward to the new rules - I got a "know code" technician in 1992 and plan to bump myself up to at least general since I already have the 5 wpm. I'd been wanting to get a ticket for a while, my father was one in the '50s, but he let his lapse. The final straw was the depletion of the "N8" call sign - I got N8TVD, as I said earlier. My younger brother got N8YKN. AFAIK, techs around here get "KC8" calls now. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 15 22:29:09 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: References: <01BF77D5.2E7DD0C0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000215232909.3a6796c6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I spotted a HP 3000 system 37 today in a scrap place. It has two HP 7963 drives and a bunch of other stuff that I don't recognize. Can anyone tell me something about them? Joe At 03:52 PM 2/15/00 -0800, you wrote: >Seconded! I don't think "helpful" comes close to describing his attitude! > >I think HP is a model for how classy a giant computer company can really >be. Their attitude toward us home enthusiasts is, "well, we had the >software ready for someone to use...why not send it out to hobbyists for >free as well!" I could hardly believe that they not only offered me the >full install set (full subsys tapes, everything), but then he's including >extra system manuals and tips on avoiding installation pitfalls as well! I >am absolutely blown away...thanks again, Stan... > >Cheers, > >Aaron > >On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: > >> On Tuesday, February 08, 2000 7:33 PM, Stan Sieler [SMTP:ss@allegro.com] >> wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > If you have a Classic HP 3000 (any two-digit model #), >> > and if you received the "Y2K Safe" release of MPE recently, >> > and if you haven't installed it yet, >> > I have some notes that you should find interesting. >> > >> > (If you didn't get your Y2K Safe MPE V (which was free!), >> > email Allan Hertling at allan_hertling@hp.com) >> > >> > >> >> Thanks for the info Stan, >> >> I sent an email to Allan asking about the upgrade and he was EXTREMELY >> helpful. My system (HP 3000/42 Classic) did not have any patches applied >> for a very long time so, he's gonna send the whole package. The best part >> is it's absolutely FREE! >> >> All in all, HP has been extremely helpful in providing upgrades for my 3000 >> and 9000s. >> >> Steve Robertson - >> > > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 15 21:35:57 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Maxtor xt8760 drives In-Reply-To: <009c01bf7820$c71c4af0$5d01a8c0@p2350> References: <0a3901bf77df$a9e1c0a0$a652e780@L166> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000215193557.00908c80@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 18:54 15-02-2000 -0700, you wrote: >Hi, > >Anybody here knows, what the difference is between the xt-8760E and >xt-8760EF version ? I would guess that E is standard ESDI (10 MHz) and EF means 'Fast' (15 or higher). Then again, that's a guess. Maybe someone else knows better...? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 15 21:09:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Feb 15, 0 12:12:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 272 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000216/b21bd270/attachment.ksh From transit at primenet.com Tue Feb 15 21:52:23 2000 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: <14505.52540.550403.810924@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On February 15, John Wilson wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800, John Lawson wrote: > > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > > > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? > > > > I'll bet it's a pretty high percentage... > > Probably so. I'm formerly KA2UZK, expired, but hoping to re-test > and renew this spring. I'm N6YMK, occasionally on 2-meters, and hopefully to be on 10 real soon. . . From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 15 22:50:55 2000 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:12:57 -0800 (PST) . Message-ID: In message , John Laws on writes: >PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or >so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? I'd guess I'm not one of the ones you know about as I don't remember ever mentioning it before. So make that eleven or so. Brian WD4AWY From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Feb 15 22:39:56 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Ham population stats Message-ID: So far: 23 respondents to my "Who's a Ham" question; not counting the several commercial licensees among us. Off Topic: I am hoping that the recent US FCC relaxing of the license requirements will breathe a little New Life into the bands in this country... the average age of the Ham population is now in the late 50s or something. There was a time when our communication system in this country, and especially emergency communication, was augmented positively by Hams... but there was a time when computers were as big as the ones in my living room... times have changed. To all who grouse about having had to learn 13WPM (Im a General Class) or 20 WPM (for Extra Class) I say this: It's only a hobby, and a great, though dying one... I welcome all the new hams to come... 5WPM will still be a good "sincerity" filter, and c'mon, people.... it's only *one* character every *two* freakin seconds!! [you do the math: 5 WPM, 5 letters/word avg... 25 char in 60 secs avg] On Topic: I want to use the PDP 11/44 to talk to my (vintage) AEA PK232 Multi-Mode terminal node controller... but even more I want to lash up an RTTY program for the PDP, to send and recieve Baudot in real time. This is in addition to the vintage 60's RTTY station I am assembling... just looking for a good Transmitter. Major components are Model 19, Collins R-388 (51-J) [serial number 235..!] and Irv Hoff TU made homebrew from 60s QST articles. And now back to your originally scheduled Classic Computer Collector's List already in progress.. Cheers John From rws at enteract.com Tue Feb 15 22:43:56 2000 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: ham radio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, John Lawson wrote: > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? I'm KF9VP, and sometime soon I will get kf9vp.ampr.org [44.72.70.29] back on the air. It's a IBM PC XT with a Seagate ST-225 hard drive; when you open a telnet connection to it the hard drive seeks away like mad for about 15-20 seconds before you get a login: prompt. The sound almost makes you feel sorry for the drive :-) Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Feb 15 22:53:25 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC In-Reply-To: <004701bf781f$54c3ca60$6464a8c0@office1> from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at "Feb 15, 0 08:42:32 pm" Message-ID: <200002160453.UAA15034@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Here's another question...does anyone have a pointer to the source code for ::a 6502-based BASIC interpreter that's ROMable? Why, look in every Commodore, Apple II, or Atari! :-P (But if that's unsatisfactory, I'd be interested, too.) -- -------------------- personal page: http://calvin.flactem.com:3001/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- I used to miss my dad, but then my aim improved. --------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Tue Feb 15 22:50:03 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Maxtor xt8760 drives Message-ID: <001401bf7839$4c2315e0$0400c0a8@winbook> That might be the case, except that my recollection of the "standard" MAXTOR drives were pretty much all 15 Mbit drives. Later they may have gone faster, though. My 4380's and 8760's are all 15 Mbit drives. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 8:44 PM Subject: Re: Maxtor xt8760 drives >At 18:54 15-02-2000 -0700, you wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>Anybody here knows, what the difference is between the xt-8760E and >>xt-8760EF version ? > > I would guess that E is standard ESDI (10 MHz) and EF means 'Fast' (15 or >higher). > > Then again, that's a guess. Maybe someone else knows better...? > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 15 23:01:09 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: ham radio? In-Reply-To: ; from Gary Hildebrand on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 09:48:06PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000215220109.F19165@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 09:48:06PM -0500, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > yes, I are a ham too, but don't send the code stuff. Now that the FCC had > deregulated things, the majority of hams will NOT know Morse Code. Actually for me it's more of an incentive to learn. 5wpm for all classes isn't nearly so daunting. And I would probably enjoy taking on the technical tests as a challenge. So it's only one hurdle to clear rather than 3. I spent some time learning Morse with an old DOS tutor program. I learned about half the alphabet and after that, it just seemed to get too confusing. And I've always hated rote memorization type tasks anyway... learning to type was really frustrating (but of course it's one of my most valuable skills in that category too). It's not fun until it becomes an instinct, but it can't become an instinct until you memorize the symbolic information (the sound of the CW or the location of the keys). -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From edick at idcomm.com Tue Feb 15 23:20:30 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <002501bf783d$8cfa1100$0400c0a8@winbook> I doubt, somehow, that you could classify what's in the ROMs in an ATARI or COMMODORE as source code. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 9:56 PM Subject: Re: Source code for BASIC >::Here's another question...does anyone have a pointer to the source code for >::a 6502-based BASIC interpreter that's ROMable? > >Why, look in every Commodore, Apple II, or Atari! :-P > >(But if that's unsatisfactory, I'd be interested, too.) > >-- >-------------------- personal page: http://calvin.flactem.com:3001/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu >-- I used to miss my dad, but then my aim improved. --------------------------- From nerdware at laidbak.com Tue Feb 15 23:22:26 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: ham radio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002160523.XAA22600@garcon.laidbak.com> WA7KKP WA7KKP DE WD9GCO WD9GCO K My first station (ca. 1978) consisted of a Heath DX-100B and a Knight R-190A, feeding into a homebrew T/R relay and out to an inverted vee hanging off the TV tower. I used a 100W light bulb in a ceramic socket as my dummy load, and I used a WB4VVF Accu- Keyer (still have it...) My paddle was homebrew as well. I used a pair of Radio Shack straight keys, screwed back-to-back and mounted vertically on an angle bracket with two pieces of phenolic circuit board replacing the knobs. Worked well. Even worked some DX, which was an incredible thrill for a Novice in high school.....(also learned that my transmitter was not exactly right on the money, dial-wise. I got a nice little QSL report from the fine folks in Grand Island, Nebraska, when I apparently ventured 5KHz outside the 40m Novice band.....) Bought a 520s after that, still have it. It's still got tubes in the final.....they'll take a lot more punishment than transistors... 73, Paul > I do remember Dick Bash, KL7??? who started the whole licencing uproar. I > think he finally got his tech licence pulled for some silly reason. > > Yes, I love them boat anchors too. Hollow state technology with the warm > glow of filaments is so nostalgic. > > I personally will have a boat anchor station set up. Drake 2B and a > Central Electronics 100V transmitter tied into a Johnson Desk Kilowatt. I > heven have the Ranger exciter to run it as a KW plate modulated if > necessary (now illegal). Yes, I do have rice boxes as well, but there is > no challenge to those. But they are nice mobile. > > I challenge all of you out there to get a ham licence, no code or even the > 5 wpm. The 5 wpm is no barrier -- anyone can learn that in a few weeks a > couple nights a week. C U on the bands . . . > > Gary Hildebrand > WA7KKP .__ ._ __... _._ _._ .__. ._. > > collector of old General Electric Progress Line radios > and anything else that glows in the dark > Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From nerdware at laidbak.com Tue Feb 15 23:25:50 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002160526.XAA22616@garcon.laidbak.com> I'd like to find one of the cartridge-rom cw decoders for the C64 so I can put mine back to work in the shack. I see them every once in a while on ebay, but they go for more than they cost new...... > > On Topic: I want to use the PDP 11/44 to talk to my (vintage) AEA > PK232 Multi-Mode terminal node controller... but even more I want > to lash up an RTTY program for the PDP, to send and recieve Baudot > in real time. > > This is in addition to the vintage 60's RTTY station I am > assembling... just looking for a good Transmitter. Major components are > Model 19, Collins R-388 (51-J) [serial number 235..!] and Irv Hoff TU made > homebrew from 60s QST articles. > Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 15 23:39:15 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Packet (was: ham radio) In-Reply-To: ; from Richard W. Schauer on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 10:43:56PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20000215223915.G19165@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 10:43:56PM -0600, Richard W. Schauer wrote: > On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, John Lawson wrote: > > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? > > I'm KF9VP, and sometime soon I will get kf9vp.ampr.org [44.72.70.29] back > on the air. It's a IBM PC XT with a Seagate ST-225 hard drive; when you > open a telnet connection to it the hard drive seeks away like mad for > about 15-20 seconds before you get a login: prompt. The sound almost > makes you feel sorry for the drive :-) Wow, yeah NOS is kindof advanced as DOS programs go. My main ham interest is TCP/IP packet actually, I'm too shy to chew the rag with strangers around the world. :-) But I'm using a modern machine (relatively, a dual Pentium 100) with Linux. Support for TCP/IP over AX.25 is just excellent. After 5 years of evangelizing some of the other hams around here are starting to use it too. It doesn't even serve much purpose really, hardly any traffic actually flows over packet but I guess sometimes people like to log in to my system as a way to telnet out to the Internet. I want to provide as many gateway type functions as I can eventually but haven't figured it all out yet. And I want to put together a second setup for testing purposes and for mobile use. I'm using a Mitrek for operating at 9600 baud (now we're back on topic kindof, the radios are old! :-) When I first got involved with packet I was using my 386 machine with a couple of MFM drives that I'd pressed into RLL service. I think one was a full-height 30 meg drive and the other was an ST-251. There wasn't a lot of excess space but plenty for a no-frills install of Slackware back then. I started with a somewhat flaky Heathkit HD-4040 tnc and then upgraded to a KPC-9612 to do 9600 baud, and that's what I still have now although I've got a PI2 kit to finish building some day (need to find some parts to finish it, such as the SCC chip and some others) and a PacComm 9600 baud modem to go with it, and some other 9600 baud TNC for another channel or whatever. I'm on 144.91 MHz but there is a 440-band backbone too which I want to get on eventually. I found a couple of digiboards on ebay so now I have plenty of serial ports to hook up as many TNC's as I like (as well as eliminating the main reason I wanted to get that MassComp working... anybody locally want a MassComp?) I'm also supposedly working on a little project to send traffic reports out over APRS, using data taken from the ADOT road-speed sensors, ramp meters and so on. But that involves somebody else who hasn't been in contact with me for a couple months so I will have to yank his chain again one of these days. Meanwhile maybe I'll find a good deal on an extra 1200 baud TNC so I can actually do APRS. Linux software for that is starting to exist in embryonic form. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 00:10:13 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <20000216061013.8752.qmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > I doubt, somehow, that you could classify what's in the ROMs in an ATARI or > COMMODORE as source code. No, but there's reverse-engineered source at ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/cbm/src/pet/basic.zip And it has already demonstrated to be ROMable. The problem is that any 6502 BASIC I have ever worked with is very hardware and firmware dependent. It is, however, a place to start. If this proves insufficient, I can probably dredge up some stuff off of an official C= Assembler disk I got from them in 1982 to develop for the C-64. I know there's some source code there; I forget what it covers. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Feb 16 00:31:08 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Ham population stats References: Message-ID: <01c701bf7847$6a178280$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Lawson To: Sent: Wednesday, 16 February 2000 3:09 Subject: Ham population stats > So far: 23 respondents to my "Who's a Ham" question; not counting > the several commercial licensees among us. Not surprised. > Off Topic: I am hoping that the recent US FCC relaxing of the > license requirements will breathe a little New Life into the bands in > this country... the average age of the Ham population is now in the > late 50s or something. Similar demographics here. > all who grouse about having had to learn 13WPM (Im a General Class) > or 20 WPM (for Extra Class) Ouch. No wonder there were so few Extras. Morse is harder for some than others, I doubt I could ever get to that speed, no matter how hard I tried. It took me MONTHS to learn it at 5wpm. > 5WPM will still be a good "sincerity" filter, and c'mon, people.... > it's only *one* character every *two* freakin seconds!! [you do the > math: 5 WPM, 5 letters/word avg... 25 char in 60 secs avg] I'm hoping they will follow suit here, and scrap the 10wpm requirement, which means I would automatically graduate up to full call...:^) > On Topic: I want to use the PDP 11/44 to talk to my (vintage) AEA > PK232 Multi-Mode terminal node controller... but even more I want > to lash up an RTTY program for the PDP, to send and recieve Baudot > in real time. I have something similar in mind for the Vax 6430. I had Packet as well as rtty in mind. Plenty of terminals. (DMB32) Ideally I'd like to find some way to use a Baycom style modem, TNC's are still ridiculously overpriced. (I use a converted C64 Sendata modem, on a PC, Baycom style, on 1200bd 2M packet.) > This is in addition to the vintage 60's RTTY station I am > assembling... just looking for a good Transmitter. Major components > are Model 19, Collins R-388 (51-J) [serial number 235..!] and Irv > Hoff TU made homebrew from 60s QST articles. I have a (mostly) 'firebottle' powered Yaesu FT200, (early 70's?) a REALLY old straight key, (came off a morse practise set, that used a SOUNDER wound with cloth covered wire - long gone now alas) but the key is a beaut, high quality brass with steel contacts. No idea where it came from, but I suspect it's early 20th century. RTTY wise, I have a Siemens Model 100 (the TT Corp stuff wasn't common here, Siemens ruled.) as well as the usual collection of software based rtty stuff. But to do packet and/or rtty from a terminal on the vax would be ultra cool. I'm trying to build up a 170hz shift rtty TU in my (hah!) copious free time. I have some other Siemens machines and a commercial (ex mil) decoder that are part of an Air Training Corp (Air Force Cadets) project that is around half built up. I have an old Dick Smith VZ200 with a RTTY en/decoder module, (just eproms IIRC) the VZ isn't working, (shows a wierd chessboard pattern on the screen - possibly video ram or something similar is crook) not sure what it REALLY is but it has a coloured keyboard made up of little square plastic buttons. Dates from the mid 80's IIRC. Must dig it out and have a further tinker with it. Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From ernestls at home.com Wed Feb 16 00:32:04 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Michael Grigoni -please read Message-ID: <000d01bf7847$8abfcce0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> Hey, I tried to mail you an image of ATT Unix SVR2 foundation disk 1 but I keep getting "undeliverable" error messages. I emailed you once yesterday, and it seemed to go through OK but I'm not sure if it made it or not. I had to get creative with it. Is there a problem with your email? Send me an email and I'll try to "Reply" to it again, and see if it works. Also, with the Teledisk program and a zipped copy of the disk image, the email is about 500k. Is that a problem? Ernest From donm at cts.com Wed Feb 16 00:41:06 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Maxtor xt8760 drives In-Reply-To: <009c01bf7820$c71c4af0$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi, > > Anybody here knows, what the difference is between the xt-8760E and > xt-8760EF version ? > (ESDI Drives ...) Maxtor's specification for the XT8000 series identifies an E and an EH series, where the H stands for high performance. Track to track of 2.5ms vice 3.0, full stroke of 30ms vice 35. There appears to be no difference in transfer rate, however. I did not find any reference to an EF version, though. - don > cheers, > emanuel > > > From wrm at ccii.co.za Wed Feb 16 04:03:27 2000 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning Message-ID: <200002161050.MAA29426@ccii.co.za> >PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or >so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? dahdidit dit dahdahdidah dididit didahdahdahdah dahdidah dit didahdidahdit dahdidah. :-) W From Mzthompson at aol.com Wed Feb 16 08:49:51 2000 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers Message-ID: <73.120bdf2.25dc130f@aol.com> John Lawson wrote: > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? Mike Cheponis wrote: > Isn't is amazing? Two trailing-edge hobbies: ham radio and collecting > old computers. Coincidence? ;-) Coincidence? Nah! It's due to an ionized packrat gene. Mike Thompson KA9JWZ (Technician), 1982 Commercial Radiotelephone License, 1970 From bill at chipware.com Wed Feb 16 09:24:05 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC In-Reply-To: <004701bf781f$54c3ca60$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: <001101bf7891$dc6179f0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> I just acquired Microsoft 8K basic in ROM for OSI on paper tape. I currently have no facility to read it, so I don't know if it is source or object. The tape seems to be in good shape (doesn't seem to be fragile) so it should be good for a few passes through a reader. I'll let you know. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini, > Jr. > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 8:43 PM > To: ClassCompList > Subject: Source code for BASIC > > > Here's another question...does anyone have a pointer to the > source code for > a 6502-based BASIC interpreter that's ROMable? > > Rich > > [ Rich Cini/WUGNET > [ ClubWin!/CW1 > [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > [ Collector of "classic" computers > [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > <================ reply separator =================> > > > From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Feb 16 09:11:42 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest Message-ID: Hams, Howdy. I'm utterly inactive but I do actually have (had? I'd better check, may have expired) technician KB6UOH. My wife was listening to me struggling to work up to 5 WPM code, using our Mac Plus (am I on-topic now?) as a random code generator. She thought it sounded kind of neat, tried it out, and was doing 10 WPM in a few days. (grrrr!). On the way down to the test I taught her Ohm's law and a few frequencies and talked her into taking the test. She took clean code (and the volunteers there were begging her to try out the general code test) and squeaked by the multiple-choice stuff and got license KB6UOI (awww, how sweet, consecutive numbers...). Now if we'd just get a radio and get on the air..... - Mark From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Feb 16 10:52:52 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC In-Reply-To: <001101bf7891$dc6179f0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:24:05 -0500 Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I just acquired Microsoft 8K basic in ROM for OSI on paper > tape. Since that's very similar to the BASIC for the Compukit UK101, I'd be very interested to hear more about it! I have a UK101 Web page here: http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/uk101.htm > good for a few passes through a reader. I'll let you know. Please do! -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From hofer at wgh.ch Wed Feb 16 11:09:20 2000 From: hofer at wgh.ch (J.-P. Hofer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:02 2005 Subject: Harddisk DEC DSP3210S Message-ID: <200002161709.SAA00449@navier> Hello, I am looking for technical information about a SCSI harddisk DEC DSP3210S. Does anyone have some details about jumper settings, capacity and other specifications ? Thanks in advance. Regards. -- Jean-Pierre Hofer hofer@wgh.ch _______________________________________________________________________ Appareils scientifiques Hofer / Wissenschaftliche Ger?te Hofer Case postale 3126 CH - 8021 Z?rich Phone + 41 1 251 07 31 Suisse / Switzerland E-mail wgh@wgh.ch _______________________________________________________________________ From edick at idcomm.com Wed Feb 16 11:21:07 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <000d01bf78a2$3882e240$0400c0a8@winbook> Though I could have missed it, I don't recall that it is/was ever the policy of Microsoft, through any of its customers, to distribute the source of its BASIC compiler. That would be a really handy thing to have, since one could then hack it into shape for embedded use, thereby competing with Microsoft's own products. If anyone has SOURCE code for Microsoft's BASIC interpreter, I'd be very interested to know about it. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 8:42 AM Subject: RE: Source code for BASIC >I just acquired Microsoft 8K basic in ROM for OSI on paper >tape. I currently have no facility to read it, so I don't >know if it is source or object. The tape seems to be in >good shape (doesn't seem to be fragile) so it should be >good for a few passes through a reader. I'll let you know. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini, >> Jr. >> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 8:43 PM >> To: ClassCompList >> Subject: Source code for BASIC >> >> >> Here's another question...does anyone have a pointer to the >> source code for >> a 6502-based BASIC interpreter that's ROMable? >> >> Rich >> >> [ Rich Cini/WUGNET >> [ ClubWin!/CW1 >> [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >> [ Collector of "classic" computers >> [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >> <================ reply separator =================> >> >> >> From aek at spies.com Wed Feb 16 11:56:34 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <200002161756.JAA01182@spies.com> "> I just acquired Microsoft 8K basic in ROM for OSI on paper > tape. Tim Shoppa mentioned having some early MS source on AFC. What exactly do you have, Tim? " On a related note, I've got source code here to some (many? most?) of the early Microsoft products - you know, things like MBASIC, etc., that say at the top: .TITLE BASIC Mpu 8080/8085/Z80/8086 (5.11) Bill Gates/Paul Allen INCLUDE BASIC.MAC ;SUBTTL VERSION 5.11 -- NOT MANY FEATURES TO GO ;COPYRIGHT 1975 BILL GATES AND PAUL ALLEN ;BILL GATES WROTE A LOT OF STUFF ;PAUL ALLEN WROTE OTHER STUFF AND FAST CODE ;MONTE DAVIDOFF WROTE THE MATH PACKAGE ;ORIGINALLY WRITTEN ON THE PDP-10 FROM ;FEBRUARY 9 TO APRIL 9 1975 " From kla at helios.augustana.edu Wed Feb 16 12:09:49 2000 From: kla at helios.augustana.edu (Kevin L. Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: KB9IUA Message-ID: For the record, I'm KB9IUA (Amateur Extra Class and 99% CW Morse op only). Cheers/73. Kevin * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent the administration of Augustana College. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Feb 16 12:20:58 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000215232909.3a6796c6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: Hi Joe, According to my parts list, the 7963 is a 304meg HD. Beyond that, I don't know much about them. Were you thinking of picking the stuff up? Did you get any model numbers from the other stuff? Cheers, Aaron On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Joe wrote: > Hi, > > I spotted a HP 3000 system 37 today in a scrap place. It has two HP 7963 > drives and a bunch of other stuff that I don't recognize. Can anyone tell > me something about them? > > Joe > > At 03:52 PM 2/15/00 -0800, you wrote: > >Seconded! I don't think "helpful" comes close to describing his attitude! > > > >I think HP is a model for how classy a giant computer company can really > >be. Their attitude toward us home enthusiasts is, "well, we had the > >software ready for someone to use...why not send it out to hobbyists for > >free as well!" I could hardly believe that they not only offered me the > >full install set (full subsys tapes, everything), but then he's including > >extra system manuals and tips on avoiding installation pitfalls as well! I > >am absolutely blown away...thanks again, Stan... > > > >Cheers, > > > >Aaron > > > >On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: > > > >> On Tuesday, February 08, 2000 7:33 PM, Stan Sieler [SMTP:ss@allegro.com] > >> wrote: > >> > Hi, > >> > > >> > If you have a Classic HP 3000 (any two-digit model #), > >> > and if you received the "Y2K Safe" release of MPE recently, > >> > and if you haven't installed it yet, > >> > I have some notes that you should find interesting. > >> > > >> > (If you didn't get your Y2K Safe MPE V (which was free!), > >> > email Allan Hertling at allan_hertling@hp.com) > >> > > >> > > >> > >> Thanks for the info Stan, > >> > >> I sent an email to Allan asking about the upgrade and he was EXTREMELY > >> helpful. My system (HP 3000/42 Classic) did not have any patches applied > >> for a very long time so, he's gonna send the whole package. The best part > >> is it's absolutely FREE! > >> > >> All in all, HP has been extremely helpful in providing upgrades for my > 3000 > >> and 9000s. > >> > >> Steve Robertson - > >> > > > > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Feb 16 12:29:59 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <000216132959.25601d7a@trailing-edge.com> >Tim Shoppa mentioned having some early MS source on AFC. >What exactly do you have, Tim? I've got MBASIC 5.11 sources. This is relatively late in MBASIC's life (about the time it was being ported to the 8086) but there are comments in there referring back to 1975. I've also got home-grown disassemblies of several other Microsoft products from the late 1970's, though these are hardly "official". If someone's looking for a BASIC to run on their SBC, I think I'd go with one of the Tiny BASIC's out there myself that comes with sources. Oak.oakland.edu or another good old Simtel mirror would be a good place to start a search. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Feb 16 13:18:45 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <000a01bf78b2$a7b91660$0400c0a8@winbook> So . . . where did this set of MBASIC v5.11 sources turn up for you to snag? Are the associated files available? Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 11:48 AM Subject: RE: Source code for BASIC >>Tim Shoppa mentioned having some early MS source on AFC. >>What exactly do you have, Tim? > >I've got MBASIC 5.11 sources. This is relatively late in >MBASIC's life (about the time it was being ported to the 8086) but there >are comments in there referring back to 1975. > >I've also got home-grown disassemblies of several other Microsoft products from >the late 1970's, though these are hardly "official". > >If someone's looking for a BASIC to run on their SBC, I think I'd go >with one of the Tiny BASIC's out there myself that comes with sources. >Oak.oakland.edu or another good old Simtel mirror would be a good place >to start a search. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 16 13:24:53 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest In-Reply-To: Re: virtual hamfest (Mark Tapley) References: Message-ID: <14506.63877.849138.247939@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 16, Mark Tapley wrote: > Howdy. I'm utterly inactive but I do actually have (had? I'd better > check, may have expired) technician KB6UOH. > My wife was listening to me struggling to work up to 5 WPM code, > using our Mac Plus (am I on-topic now?) as a random code generator. She > thought it sounded kind of neat, tried it out, and was doing 10 WPM in a > few days. (grrrr!). On the way down to the test I taught her Ohm's law and > a few frequencies and talked her into taking the test. She took clean code > (and the volunteers there were begging her to try out the general code > test) and squeaked by the multiple-choice stuff and got license KB6UOI > (awww, how sweet, consecutive numbers...). > Now if we'd just get a radio and get on the air..... She thought CW sounded neat? Does she have a sister? ;) -Dave McGuire From edick at idcomm.com Wed Feb 16 13:27:30 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <001301bf78b3$e09985e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Just exactly why would you recommend a TINY BASIC as opposed to a full-up interpreter? Most SBC's support huge amounts of RAM, far in excess of what the basic interpreter should require. My earliest Intel SBC's have room for 4 24-pin EPROMs, each of which can hold 4K, and, if you use a jumpering arrangement derived from the schematic rather than from the manual, you can use the 8K parts from MOT. That gives you 32KB. Isn't that enough to support a customized version of the BASIC interpreter in addition to the required driver code? You do have to modify the I/O hooks to fit into your SBC, but you'd have to do that anyway, wouldn't you? There are some public-domain CP/M-compatible I/O handlers which use some of the CP/M i/o calls. Naturally, it's a lot of work, but you can do it, given you have the source code. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 11:48 AM Subject: RE: Source code for BASIC >>Tim Shoppa mentioned having some early MS source on AFC. >>What exactly do you have, Tim? > >I've got MBASIC 5.11 sources. This is relatively late in >MBASIC's life (about the time it was being ported to the 8086) but there >are comments in there referring back to 1975. > >I've also got home-grown disassemblies of several other Microsoft products from >the late 1970's, though these are hardly "official". > >If someone's looking for a BASIC to run on their SBC, I think I'd go >with one of the Tiny BASIC's out there myself that comes with sources. >Oak.oakland.edu or another good old Simtel mirror would be a good place >to start a search. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Feb 16 14:10:28 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges Message-ID: <38AB0434.7B20A49D@idirect.com> I am looking for a source for the 600 Mbyte magneto optical 5 1/4" cartridges with 512 byte per sector. Tim Shoppa has mentioned in the past that he might know where I can find some. Does anyone else? These will be used in a SONY SMO S-501 5 1/4" magneto optical disk drive. I have checked eBay, but they are usually sold as is? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 16 12:44:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Feb 15, 0 08:39:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2143 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000216/ab957085/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 16 13:11:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC In-Reply-To: <001101bf7891$dc6179f0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Feb 16, 0 10:24:05 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 876 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000216/a6b5baa9/attachment.ksh From bill at chipware.com Wed Feb 16 15:08:00 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001201bf78c1$e834aa10$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Looking at the tape, I see that the words "END OF FILE BAS65.PTP" are punched at the end of the tape in sort of pseudo dot-matrix characters. Does the "PTP" extension tell us anything? Looking at the start of the tape: "MICRO-SOFT BAS65.PTP [2601,1260] 29-JUL-77 15:27:58" Looking through the first few feet of "real data"... No high bits, the first few bytes are: 00111011 x3b ';' (was hoping for the start of an assembly comment) 00110010 x32 '2' (nope, looks like some sort of hex...) 00110000 x30 '0' 01000001 x41 'A' 00110000 x30 '0' 00110000 x30 '0' 00110000 x30 '0' 00110011 x33 '3' 00111001 x39 '9' 01000001 x41 'A' > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 2:12 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Source code for BASIC > > > > > > I just acquired Microsoft 8K basic in ROM for OSI on paper > > tape. I currently have no facility to read it, so I don't > > know if it is source or object. The tape seems to be in > > Read the first few characters by hand -- it's most likely to be either > binary or ascii. Put the tape so that the row of small holes is nearer > the bottom, then the top hole is the MSB. Each column of 8 (data) holes > is a character, a hole is a 1, no hole is a space. > > If the top (bit 7) hole is used at all, then either it's a text tape with > parity (in which case the number of holes in a column will always be > either odd or even), or it's a binary tape > > If only the bottom 7 holes are used, then it's probably a text encoding, > but this doesn't mean it's source code. It could well be (and I suspect > it is) an Intel-hex object tape. But reading a few characters > will tell you. > > -tony > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Feb 16 15:15:43 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <000216161543.25601dc2@trailing-edge.com> >Just exactly why would you recommend a TINY BASIC as opposed to a full-up >interpreter? Most SBC's support huge amounts of RAM, far in excess of what >the basic interpreter should require. Heck, we can get SBC's of just a few square inches with a Pentium Pro, 128 Mbytes of RAM, SVGA output, and a hard drive interface, why not just install Windows NT on the SBC so you can run the latest and greatest Visual BASIC++++? Well, I took your argument there a little too far, but I hope you get the point: Use the tools appropriate to the job. And for most SBC applications, the floating point capabilities and libraries as well as the file I/O facilities of a "full-up" BASIC are overkill. OTOH most Tiny Basic implementations are perfect for the bit-banging and input/output that a SBC is often called upon to do. (And yes, I know of other cases where Windows NT and 128 Mbytes of RAM on the SBC are appropriate, but I don't think any of us want to go down that road!) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Feb 16 15:31:35 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 06:44:14PM +0000 References: Message-ID: <20000216163135.B20438@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 06:44:14PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > Hmmm.. I've tried to learn morse several times, and failed every single > time. I don't know why, but it just doesn't seem to 'click' with me. Well, having an actual use for it makes it a lot easier to remember. My best friend and I learned Morse code in 6th grade so that we could pass notes in class that no one could understand. Naturally that later fizzled, the 7th grade teacher was a ham and the 8th grade teacher was a radio operator in the Norwegian underground in WW2, so much for that idea! But learning Morse code is a lot easier than memorizing the ASCII table, there are way fewer characters... > It would be considerably more entertaining to attmept to output data > packets directly from the 11/44 without using a TNC. A DUP11 might be > able to produce a suitable data format. A KMC11 + a suitable comms card > certainly could. I *always* wanted to do that, I actually bought a DUP11 years ago for this purpose but never dug up documentation on it until recently. You'd need to build some kind of external clock (PLL really I guess) that synchronized to the bit transitions of AX.25, shouldn't be a very big deal though. Stupid question: what comes out of the other side of a ham TNC these days? It used to be Bell 202 modem tones at 1200 baud HDX, over an FM voice signal, it *can't* still be that easy though can it? Some place I still have the 202 style TU I built from a kit (hmm, Fletcher TU-1200 maybe, or did I just make that up?) to go with the DUP11 before I dropped the ball. > > to lash up an RTTY program for the PDP, to send and recieve Baudot > > in real time. > > DL11s can be jumpered for 5 bits and 1.5 stop bits IIRC. Hmm, any idea how well that really interacts with real TTYs? I thought they used 1.4xxx stop bits or something (really whatever scrap of a rotation is left over after all 5 bits get sampled and before the selector doodad hits the stop again). I suppose you're unlikely to type fast enough on a real TTY to cause framing errors... Anyway the *true* joy of Baudot is that ridiculous keyboard layout, and all that crap with FIGS and LTRS, using a computer would miss some of the wackiness. Geez, I miss my model 19... John Wilson D Bit From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Feb 16 15:49:57 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <000216164957.25601dcb@trailing-edge.com> >Looking at the tape, I see that the words "END OF FILE BAS65.PTP" >are punched at the end of the tape in sort of pseudo dot-matrix >characters. Does the "PTP" extension tell us anything? "Paper TaPe" in DEC-ese. > Looking at >the start of the tape: >"MICRO-SOFT BAS65.PTP [2601,1260] 29-JUL-77 15:27:58" That makes sense, Microsoft was cross-assembling on PDP-10's at the time, and [2601,1260] would be the PPN code for an account. For the first couple of years Microsoft was using the hyphenated form. >Looking through the first few feet of "real data"... > >No high bits, the first few bytes are: >00111011 x3b ';' (was hoping for the start of an assembly comment) >00110010 x32 '2' (nope, looks like some sort of hex...) >00110000 x30 '0' >01000001 x41 'A' >00110000 x30 '0' >00110000 x30 '0' >00110000 x30 '0' >00110011 x33 '3' >00111001 x39 '9' >01000001 x41 'A' That makes some sense, "20" is the 6502 opcode for a JSR (jump to subroutine). The next two bytes are presumably the subroutine's address, and "39" is the 6502 opcode for an AND abolute,Y instruction. Tim. From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Feb 16 16:58:24 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: <20000216163135.B20438@dbit.dbit.com>; from John Wilson on Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 04:31:35PM -0500 References: <20000216163135.B20438@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000216155824.F25662@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 04:31:35PM -0500, John Wilson wrote: > in the Norwegian underground in WW2, so much for that idea! But learning > Morse code is a lot easier than memorizing the ASCII table, there are way > fewer characters... I haven't done that either, just remember that A is dec. 65 and CR/LF is 0d0a (but I can't remember which is which)... in spite of having written programs more or less continuously since 1986, I still need an ASCII chart sometimes. > > Stupid question: what comes out of the other side of a ham TNC these days? > It used to be Bell 202 modem tones at 1200 baud HDX, over an FM voice signal, > it *can't* still be that easy though can it? Some place I still have the Yeah 1200 baud AFSK hasn't changed but there are many new methods of doing more-reliable data transfer on HF and also faster speeds on other frequencies. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From edick at idcomm.com Wed Feb 16 16:59:05 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <000c01bf78d1$6f1af980$0400c0a8@winbook> No, I don't get the point. The TINY BASIC with which I worked back in the mid-'70's required more ascii because it was necessary to build the features normally contained in the "full-up" version. If one were to have access to the source code for the interpreter, one could then migrate various function classes to external libraries which would be incorporated into the ROM set only if they were needed. If you didn't need the FP library or the high-precision math library, or the file I/O library, you'd simply leave it out. However, it's MUCH easier to add enough ROM code space by using a couple already present sockets, if you do need string processing or floating point functions, it's MUCH easier to use them within the framework of BASIC than to roll-yer-own implementation of a public domain FP package. If you put the ascii basic code in one ROM and put the interpreter in another, it makes a big difference whether you use TINY basic rather than a product like MSBasic v5.11. TINY is OK for some applications, but it doesn't do a lot of the nie things the "real" basic does. That's why you have to use more code to build the functions. If you use them often, these little functions can become large and burdensome. The BASIC source, meaning the stuff you write and feed to the interpreter, is often MUCH easier to fit into a small system's ROM for a given task than the equivalent TINY BASIC implementation simply because it's less verbose than Tiny BASIC code for the same task. YMMV, of course, but IF you write an interface to an LCD so that PRINT uses it, just being able enter '?' as a token already saves space. Of course, if you happened to have a tokenizer for the basic, or, for that matter, TINY BASIC, you'll save space. Unfortunately, I've never had a tokenized TINY BASIC. That, basically, (no pun intended) is the reason a REAL source for a REAL basic interpreter would be interesting. After all, that's one of the features that's made FORTH as popular as it is. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 2:32 PM Subject: Re: Source code for BASIC >>Just exactly why would you recommend a TINY BASIC as opposed to a full-up >>interpreter? Most SBC's support huge amounts of RAM, far in excess of what >>the basic interpreter should require. > >Heck, we can get SBC's of just a few square inches with a Pentium Pro, 128 >Mbytes of RAM, SVGA output, and a hard drive interface, why not just install >Windows NT on the SBC so you can run the latest and greatest Visual BASIC++++? > >Well, I took your argument there a little too far, but I hope you get the >point: Use the tools appropriate to the job. And for most SBC applications, >the floating point capabilities and libraries as well as the file I/O >facilities of a "full-up" BASIC are overkill. OTOH most Tiny Basic >implementations are perfect for the bit-banging and input/output that a >SBC is often called upon to do. > >(And yes, I know of other cases where Windows NT and 128 Mbytes of RAM on >the SBC are appropriate, but I don't think any of us want to go down that >road!) > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 16 17:04:46 2000 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? In-Reply-To: <200002120216.SAA11859@fraser.sfu.ca> References: <200002120216.SAA11859@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <0+4E9JAO0yq4EwsS@joules0.demon.co.uk> In article <200002120216.SAA11859@fraser.sfu.ca>, Kevin McQuiggin writes >Use nslookup. "nslookup (IP address)". No parentheses. > >nslookup is a Unix utility, run it at the shell prompt. There will likely >be versions available for other systems as well. > >Alternatively, visit the NIC (www.internic.net) and you can run the IP >address through their database there. I find http://swhois.net useful as a replacement for whois and nslookup as if you enter an IP address it gives the details of the domain which owns it, if you give a network address it gives the registrant of the netblock and if you give it a domain name then it gives the details one would expect from a whois. All this from one search box on a web form ;-) BTW 157.54.0.0 to 157.60.0.0 is registered to microsoft.com ;-) postmasternetwork.net uses enameserv.com for its DNS so they are a fair bet as the providers for the website that you quote. Whilst I am posting, Allison, could you please e-mail me privately with the full details as to how to break in to the MicroVAX 2000 which I have just been given? I know I should have printed it last time. At present it boots to a $ prompt with no login prompt but if I try to run AUTHORIZE it just puts up the details of time used etc and hangs. -- Regards Pete From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 16 17:51:22 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Macintosh Portable problems Message-ID: <20000216235122.23068.qmail@hotmail.com> Finally got my Mac Portable battery rebuilt, the thing runs great! But I think I have a problem. Whenever I check the "Battery" DA or the battery gauge on the menu bar, the batteries never seem to be charged up more than half way. Anybody got any ideas? ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, Double FDD, GeoRam 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 18:31:51 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Ham population stats Message-ID: <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Wilson wrote: > On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 06:44:14PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > Hmmm.. I've tried to learn morse several times, and failed every single > > time. I don't know why, but it just doesn't seem to 'click' with me. > > Well, having an actual use for it makes it a lot easier to remember. My > best friend and I learned Morse code in 6th grade so that we could pass > notes in class that no one could understand. Naturally that later fizzled, > the 7th grade teacher was a ham and the 8th grade teacher was a radio > operator in the Norwegian underground in WW2, so much for that idea! My younger brother did that as a kid, too. The teacher tapped back "cut it out" when they tried it during a test. > I *always* wanted to do that, I actually bought a DUP11 years ago for this > purpose but never dug up documentation on it until recently. You'd need to > build some kind of external clock (PLL really I guess) that synchronized to > the bit transitions of AX.25, shouldn't be a very big deal though. My knowledge of sync serial comes from years of working with third party devices on DEC equipment, but here goes... If the DUP-11 has a COM5025 serial chip on it then what it's expecting is something like a "standard" bit-rate on its input connector. With the right cable, I'd expect to feed it clocking through pins 15 and 17 on a DB-25 at EIA levels (+/- 12VDC). We used to have racks of "modem eliminators" that were effectively null-modem devices that would provide clocks to DTE equipment on both sides. There were typically various options to set as well, bit rate being chief among them. Most of ours were set to between 9600 and 56Kbps with a couple set to 64kpbs and one to 128kbps for reproducing environments of our European customers. Sync serial has no start bits, no stop bits, just bits. With protocols like SDLC, there's a "flag byte" of 0x7E (0111 1110) that the receiving hardware uses to determine the start and stop of a packet. One efficiency of sync hardware is you aren't trasmitting 10 bits to communicate 8. The downside is extra hardware on both ends and slightly more expensive cables to send it all. If I'm confusing the DUP-11 with other DEC cards that use the COM5025, sorry. The original Software Results Corp. COMBOARD used that chip because it was identical to whatever Qbus card we used to use when we were shipping the HASPBOX (a PDP-11 with sync serial and a DPV-11 to communicate via parallel to a PDP-11/70 or VAX-11/7xx). > Stupid question: what comes out of the other side of a ham TNC these days? > It used to be Bell 202 modem tones at 1200 baud HDX, over an FM voice signal, > it *can't* still be that easy though can it? In the 2 meter band in the U.S., at least, Hams are restricted to 1200 baud. AFAIK, it is that simple. There are "pocket TNCs" that are little more than audio modulator circuits that depend on the CPU in your PeeCee to produce a valid AX.25 bitstream. I've seen it work with an HP-95LX - "pocket packet". -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 16 17:19:11 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC In-Reply-To: <001201bf78c1$e834aa10$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Feb 16, 0 04:08:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 876 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000216/076ecce7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 16 17:27:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: <20000216163135.B20438@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Feb 16, 0 04:31:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2671 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000216/4ab27985/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 16 19:07:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 16, 0 04:31:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 374 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000217/2a54f4f0/attachment.ksh From mac at Wireless.Com Wed Feb 16 19:24:53 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Macintosh Portable problems In-Reply-To: <20000216235122.23068.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, David Vohs wrote: > Finally got my Mac Portable battery rebuilt, the thing runs great! But I > think I have a problem. Whenever I check the "Battery" DA or the battery > gauge on the menu bar, the batteries never seem to be charged up more than > half way. Anybody got any ideas? > ____________________________________________________________ > David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. I assume you used sealed lead-acid batteries? -Mike From rcini at msn.com Wed Feb 16 19:37:43 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: TOUCH for DOS/Windows Message-ID: <008001bf78e7$f4ba6ce0$6464a8c0@office1> Hello, all: Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH utility?? Rich [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Feb 16 19:57:47 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com>; from Ethan Dicks on Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 04:31:51PM -0800 References: <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000216185747.D26896@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 04:31:51PM -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: > In the 2 meter band in the U.S., at least, Hams are restricted to 1200 baud. No, not exactly. But we are limited to the same bandwidth as an FM voice channel, so there is a practical limit. 9600 baud fits into the permissible deviation well enough and is commonly used on 2 meters. (Doing true FSK rather than an audio simulation of FSK helps minimize the bandwidth used.) More speed might be possible with the kinds of fancy tricks that gave us 56K landline modems (and some hams experiment with that kind of stuff). On 440MHz and above there are some 100khz channels available. For those, 56K is the most popular high-speed mode (but pretty scarce at that). You need a modem that outputs a 10 meter carrier pre-modulated with the signal, and a transverter to get from there to the desired frequency; so that makes it expensive (~$1000 to fully equip a station with new equipment) and that's why it's not really common IMO. There have also been experiments with 2 and 10 mbps microwave links using gunn diode transceivers and ethernet cards and slower network cards. And now that spread-spectrum is wide open for experimentation without any STA's required, I expect that to be the next hotbed of activity. Most or all of the no-license-required wireless ethernet devices operate in ham bands (we have to share the bandwidth with them), so it's possible and legal to use high-gain antennae and perhaps bigger power amps to use that kind of equipment for long- distance links. The new regs require dynamic control of output power though - you can't output any more power than is necessary to maintain the link, and the control of it must be automated. But so far the fastest I'm doing is 9600 baud (on 2 meters). -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From liste at artware.qc.ca Wed Feb 16 19:59:19 2000 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: TOUCH for DOS/Windows In-Reply-To: <008001bf78e7$f4ba6ce0$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: On 17-Feb-00 Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > Hello, all: > > Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH > utility?? echo "" >filename.txt Oh! You want to use the real function of touch. Try virtually unix (http://www.itribe.net/virtunix/) It's a good starting point to get all the unix tools win32 so pitifully lacks. Otherwise, Simtel? -Philip From rws at enteract.com Wed Feb 16 20:19:16 2000 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: TOUCH for DOS/Windows In-Reply-To: <008001bf78e7$f4ba6ce0$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH utility?? In DR-DOS, yes. It's called TOUCH. In MS-DOS (and PC-DOS), no. You have to fake it using: copy filename+nul: filename Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From blakeman at creative-net.net Wed Feb 16 08:46:41 2000 From: blakeman at creative-net.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: TOUCH for DOS/Windows Message-ID: <38ab6111.52a8.0@creative-net.net> Shareware.com has a Unix like set of DOS utils called DOSix available for free download at: http://shareware.cnet.com/shareware/0-13628-500-1259888.html?tag=st.sw.16167_501_1.lst.titledetail Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH utility?? > >Rich >[ Rich Cini/WUGNET >[ ClubWin!/CW1 >[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >[ Collector of "classic" computers >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ ><================ reply separator =================> > > > > From marvin at rain.org Tue Feb 15 20:50:30 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: TOUCH for DOS/Windows References: <008001bf78e7$f4ba6ce0$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: <38AA1076.59EAB84F@rain.org> "Richard A. Cini, Jr." wrote: > > Hello, all: > > Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH utility?? Yes there is, but it has been years since I've seen it. IIRC, it is also called TOUCH. ... Just did a quick search under Alta Vista and it showed up at the Simtel site. URL: http://ftp.unicamp.br/simtel.net/msdos/dirutl-bydate.html and just search the page for "touch". From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 22:28:07 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Ham population stats Message-ID: <20000217042807.2895.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Shawn T. Rutledge" wrote: > On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 04:31:51PM -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > In the 2 meter band in the U.S., at least, Hams are restricted to 1200 > baud. > > No, not exactly. But we are limited to the same bandwidth as an FM > voice channel, so there is a practical limit. 9600 baud fits into the > permissible deviation well enough and is commonly used on 2 meters. I guess things changed when I wasn't looking. Thanks for the update. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Feb 16 23:11:06 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Send/Receive (BAUDOT) in GWBASIC (was Ham Stats) In-Reply-To: <20000216163135.B20438@dbit.dbit.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000216211106.02fd5d98@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: Further to this discussion of 5 bit characters on a DL11, this was also possible on the PCjr. I wrote a BASIC send/receive RTTY program for the PCjr in 1985. It used an esoteric mode of the particular serial chip on the PCjr, to support 5 data bits and 1.5 stop bits. The DTR pin of the serial port was used to toggle the radio from transmit to receive. My modem was homebrew, built around an XR2211 (IIRC) chip. I still have the modem buried in the crawlspace somewhere. I used this program/modem for many years, this was in the days before all-mode TNCs. Here's the source code, in GWBASIC. Use at will. ============================================== 10 '**************************************************************************** 20 '* PCjr RTTY * 30 '* By * 40 '* Kevin McQuiggin * 50 '* VE7CPT * 60 '* * 70 '* Version 1.2 April 1985. 80 '* Copyright K. McQuiggin 1985. * 90 '**************************************************************************** 100 '* 110 '* This package provides full transceive operation for RTTY on the IBM PCjr. 120 '* Operation takes place through the use of function keys F1 --> F7 130 '* which provide full TX/RX switching, selection of data rate from 45 to 300 140 '* baud and choice of ASCII or BAUDOT modes. 150 ' 160 '*************************************************************************** 170 ' 180 ' Initialization of constants and ASCII/BAUDOT conversion tables: 190 ' 200 DIM MODE$(1), TXRX$(1), BAUD$(6), HEXBAUD(6), ATOB$(122), BTOA$(31,1), CHANGE$(2) 210 MODE$(0)="Ascii": MODE$(1)="Baudot" 220 TXRX$(0)="TX": TXRX$(1)="RX" 230 BAUD$(0)=" 45": BAUD$(1)=" 50": BAUD$(2)=" 57": BAUD$(3)=" 75" 240 BAUD$(4)=" 78": BAUD$(5)="110": BAUD$(6)="300" 250 HEXBAUD(0)=&H9B5: HEXBAUD(1)=&H8BD: HEXBAUD(2)=&H7AA: HEXBAUD(3)=&H5D3 260 HEXBAUD(4)=&H59A: HEXBAUD(5)=&H1A1: HEXBAUD(6)=&H175 270 CHANGE$(0)=CHR$(&H1F): CHANGE$(1)=CHR$(&H1B): CHANGE$(2)=CHR$(0) 280 ' 290 ' Initialize BAUDOT to ASCII Conversion table (BTOA$). 300 FOR I=0 TO 1:FOR J=0 TO 31 310 READ BTOA$(J,I) 320 NEXT:NEXT 330 BTOA$(2,0)=CHR$(10): BTOA$(8,0)=CHR$(13) 340 BTOA$(2,1)=CHR$(10): BTOA$(8,1)=CHR$(13) 350 BTOA$(5,1)=CHR$(7) 360 ' 370 ' Initialize ASCII to BAUDOT table (ATOB$). 380 ATOB$(0)=CHR$(&H40): ATOB$(7)=CHR$(&H24) 390 ATOB$(10)=CHR$(&H42): ATOB$(13)=CHR$(&H48) 400 RESTORE 2320: FOR I=32 TO 63: READ J: ATOB$(I)=CHR$(J): NEXT 410 RESTORE 2350: FOR I=65 TO 90: READ J: ATOB$(I)=CHR$(J): NEXT 420 RESTORE 2350: FOR I=97 TO 122: READ J: ATOB$(I)=CHR$(J): NEXT 430 ' 440 '*************************************************************************** 450 ASCII=0: BAUDOT=1 460 LTRS=31: FIGS=27 470 TX=0: RX=1 480 ' 490 P=0 ' initial baud rate 45 500 TXRX=1 ' receive state 510 MODE=1 ' Baudot mode 520 SHIFT=0 ' LTRS shift 530 CANNED=0 ' No canned messages 540 OUT &H3FC,0 ' Rig to RX state 550 ' 560 '************************************************************************** 570 ' 580 ' Set initial screen conditions 590 KEY OFF: CLS 600 ' 610 ' Trap F1 --> F7 620 KEY(1) ON: KEY(2) ON: KEY(3) ON: KEY(4) ON: KEY(5) ON: KEY(6) ON: KEY(7) ON 630 ON KEY(1) GOSUB 1670 640 ON KEY(2) GOSUB 1780 650 ON KEY(3) GOSUB 1850 660 ON KEY(4) GOSUB 1930 670 ON KEY(5) GOSUB 2060 680 ON KEY(6) GOSUB 2130 690 ON KEY(7) GOSUB 2180 700 ' 710 ' Error trapping routine 720 ON ERROR GOTO 2360 730 ' 740 '************************************************************************** 750 ' 760 ' Print User Introductory Messages. 770 PRINT TAB(10)"* * PCjr RTTY * *":PRINT TAB(12)"By K. McQuiggin":PRINT TAB(17)"VE7CPT" 780 PRINT:PRINT: PRINT "This package offers full ASCII/BAUDOT" 790 PRINT "transceive operation on the IBM PCjr at" 800 PRINT "data rates from 45 to 300 Baud." 810 PRINT: PRINT "Function Keys operate as follows:" 820 PRINT: PRINT "F1:";TAB(10)"ASCII <--> BAUDOT": PRINT "F2:";TAB(10)"Increase Baud Rate": PRINT "F3:";TAB(10)"Decrease Baud Rate":PRINT "F4:";TAB(10)"TRANSMIT <--> RECEIVE": PRINT "F5:";TAB(10)"EXIT":PRINT "F6:";TAB(10)"Force unshift" 830 PRINT "F7:";TAB(10)"Start/Stop Canned Messages": PRINT: PRINT 840 INPUT "Press ENTER to Continue ",A$ 850 ' 860 '*************************************************************************** 870 ' 880 ' Execution begins. 890 CLS 900 OPEN "scrn:" FOR OUTPUT AS #2 ' Init files and begin operation. 910 GOSUB 1520 920 GOSUB 1430 930 GOSUB 1350 940 GOTO 1120 950 ' 960 '*************************************************************************** 970 ' ASCII Transmit Routine. 980 GOSUB 1590 990 IF CHAR$ = "" THEN GOTO 980 1000 PRINT #1, CHAR$; 1010 PRINT #2, CHAR$; 1020 GOTO 980 1030 ' 1040 '************************************************************************* 1050 ' ASCII Receive Routine. 1060 IF EOF(1) THEN GOTO 1060 1070 CHAR$=INPUT$(LOC(1),#1) 1080 PRINT #2, CHAR$; 1090 GOTO 1060 1100 ' 1110 '*************************************************************************** 1120 ' BAUDOT Receive Routine. 1130 IF EOF(1) THEN 1130 1140 CHAR=ASC(INPUT$(LOC(1),#1)) 1150 IF CHAR > 31 THEN GOTO 1130 1160 IF CHAR = FIGS THEN SHIFT=1 1170 IF CHAR = LTRS THEN SHIFT=0 1180 IF CHAR <> FIGS AND CHAR <> LTRS THEN PRINT #2,BTOA$(CHAR,SHIFT); 1190 GOTO 1130 1200 ' 1210 '************************************************************************** 1220 ' BAUDOT Transmit routine. 1230 SHIFT$=CHANGE$(0) 1240 GOSUB 1590 1250 IF CHAR$ = "" THEN GOTO 1240 1260 PRINT #2,CHAR$; 1270 IF ASC(CHAR$) > 122 THEN CHAR$=CHR$(0) 1280 CHAR$=ATOB$(ASC(CHAR$)) 1290 S=(ASC(CHAR$) AND &H60)/32 1300 CHAR$=CHR$(ASC(CHAR$) AND &H1F) 1310 IF S=2 OR CHANGE$(S) = SHIFT$ THEN PRINT #1,CHAR$; ELSE PRINT #1,CHANGE$(S);CHAR$;: SHIFT$=CHANGE$(S) 1320 GOTO 1240 1330 ' 1340 '************************************************************************** 1350 ' Utility Routine to PRINT STATUS LINE. 1360 I=CSRLIN: J=POS(0) 1370 LOCATE 25,1 1380 PRINT "MODE: ";MODE$(MODE);TAB(14) "RATE: ";TAB(20) BAUD$(P);TAB(24) "Baud";TAB(30) "STATE: ";TXRX$(TXRX); 1390 LOCATE I,J 1400 RETURN 1410 ' 1420 '************************************************************************** 1430 ' Utility Routine to SET BAUD RATE TO HEXBAUD(P). 1440 I=INP(&H3FB)+128 1450 OUT &H3FB,I 1460 OUT &H3F8,(HEXBAUD(P) AND &HFF) 1470 OUT &H3F9,(((HEXBAUD(P) AND &HFF00)/256) AND &HFF) 1480 OUT &H3FB,(I-128) 1490 RETURN 1500 ' 1510 '************************************************************************** 1520 ' Utility Routine to OPEN COM1 FOR CURRENT MODE. 1530 CLOSE #1 1540 IF MODE = ASCII THEN OPEN "com1:75,n,7,1,rs,cs,ds,cd" AS #1 ELSE OPEN "com1:75,n,5,2,rs,cs,ds,cd" AS #1 1550 OUT &H3FC,(INP(&H3FC) AND &HFE) 1560 RETURN 1570 ' 1580 '************************************************************************** 1590 ' Utility Routine to read characters from keyboard or process canned msg. 1600 CHAR$=INKEY$ 1610 IF NOT CANNED THEN RETURN 1620 CHAR$=MID$(MSG$,NEXTCHAR,1) 1630 NEXTCHAR=NEXTCHAR+1: IF NEXTCHAR > LEN(MSG$) THEN NEXTCHAR=1 1640 RETURN 1650 ' 1660 '************************************************************************** 1670 ' Routine "F1" Change Mode ASCII <--> BAUDOT. 1680 IF MODE = ASCII THEN GOTO 1730 1690 MODE=ASCII: GOSUB 1520: GOSUB 1350 1700 IF TXRX = TX THEN RETURN 970 1710 RETURN 1050 1720 ' 1730 MODE=BAUDOT: GOSUB 1520: GOSUB 1350 1740 IF TXRX = TX THEN RETURN 1220 1750 RETURN 1120 1760 ' 1770 '************************************************************************** 1780 ' Routine "F2" Increase Baud Rate. 1790 P=(P+1) MOD 7 1800 GOSUB 1430 1810 GOSUB 1350 1820 RETURN 1830 ' 1840 '************************************************************************** 1850 ' Routine "F3" Decrease Baud Rate. 1860 P=P-1 1870 IF P < 0 THEN P=6 1880 GOSUB 1430 1890 GOSUB 1350 1900 RETURN 1910 ' 1920 '************************************************************************** 1930 ' Routine "F4" Change Status TX <--> RX. 1940 I=INP(&H3FC) AND &H1 1950 IF I = 0 THEN OUT &H3FC,(INP(&H3FC) OR &H1) ELSE OUT &H3FC,(INP(&H3FC) AND &HFE) 1960 IF TXRX = TX THEN GOTO 2010 1970 TXRX=TX: GOSUB 1350 1980 IF MODE = BAUDOT THEN RETURN 1220 1990 RETURN 970 2000 ' 2010 TXRX=RX: GOSUB 1350 2020 IF MODE = BAUDOT THEN RETURN 1120 2030 RETURN 1050 2040 ' 2050 '************************************************************************** 2060 ' Routine "F5" EXIT. 2070 CLOSE #1: CLOSE #2 ' Close all files 2080 OUT &H3FC,0 ' Make sure rig is left in RX mode 2090 ON ERROR GOTO: KEY OFF: WIDTH 80: CLS ' Restore standard states 2100 END 2110 ' 2120 '************************************************************************** 2130 ' Routine "F6" Force "unshift" on Receive. 2140 SHIFT=0 2150 RETURN 2160 ' 2170 '************************************************************************** 2180 ' Routine "F7" Start/Stop transmission of Canned Message. 2190 CANNED=NOT CANNED 2200 MSG$=CHR$(10)+"CQ CQ CQ CQ CQ"+CHR$(10)+"DE"+CHR$(10)+"VE7CPT VE7CPT VE7CPT " 2210 NEXTCHAR=1 2220 RETURN 2230 ' 2240 '************************************************************************** 2250 '************************************************************************** 2260 '* D A T A A R E A * 2270 '************************************************************************** 2280 ' 2290 ' BAUDOT to ASCII Conversion Table 2300 DATA "",E,LF,A," ",S,I,U,CR,D,R,J,N,F,C,K,T,Z,L,W,H,Y,P,Q,O,B,G,"",M,X,V,"" 2310 DATA "",3,LF,-," ",BELL,8,7,CR,$,4,"'",",","",":",(,5,"'",),2,#,6,0,1,9,?,&,"",.,/,;,"" 2320 ' 2330 ' ASCII to BAUDOT Conversion Table ( in Hexadecimal ). 2340 DATA &h44,0,&h31,&h34,&h29,0,0,&h2b,&h2f,&h32,0,0,&h2c,&h23,&h3c,&h3d,&h36,&h37,& h33,&h21,&h2a,&h30,&h35,&h27,&h26,&h38,&h2e,&h3e,0,0,0,&h39 2350 DATA &h03,&h19,&h0e,&h09,&h01,&h0d,&h1a,&h14,&h06,&h0b,&h0f,&h12,&h1c,&h0c,&h18,& h16,&h17,&h0a,&h05,&h10,&h07,&h1e,&h13,&h1d,&h15,&h11 2360 RESUME ============================================== Kevin At 04:31 PM 00/02/16 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 06:44:14PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >> Hmmm.. I've tried to learn morse several times, and failed every single >> time. I don't know why, but it just doesn't seem to 'click' with me. > >Well, having an actual use for it makes it a lot easier to remember. My >best friend and I learned Morse code in 6th grade so that we could pass >notes in class that no one could understand. Naturally that later fizzled, >the 7th grade teacher was a ham and the 8th grade teacher was a radio operator >in the Norwegian underground in WW2, so much for that idea! But learning >Morse code is a lot easier than memorizing the ASCII table, there are way >fewer characters... > >> It would be considerably more entertaining to attmept to output data >> packets directly from the 11/44 without using a TNC. A DUP11 might be >> able to produce a suitable data format. A KMC11 + a suitable comms card >> certainly could. > >I *always* wanted to do that, I actually bought a DUP11 years ago for this >purpose but never dug up documentation on it until recently. You'd need to >build some kind of external clock (PLL really I guess) that synchronized to >the bit transitions of AX.25, shouldn't be a very big deal though. > >Stupid question: what comes out of the other side of a ham TNC these days? >It used to be Bell 202 modem tones at 1200 baud HDX, over an FM voice signal, >it *can't* still be that easy though can it? Some place I still have the >202 style TU I built from a kit (hmm, Fletcher TU-1200 maybe, or did I just >make that up?) to go with the DUP11 before I dropped the ball. > >> > to lash up an RTTY program for the PDP, to send and recieve Baudot >> > in real time. >> >> DL11s can be jumpered for 5 bits and 1.5 stop bits IIRC. > >Hmm, any idea how well that really interacts with real TTYs? I thought they >used 1.4xxx stop bits or something (really whatever scrap of a rotation is >left over after all 5 bits get sampled and before the selector doodad hits >the stop again). I suppose you're unlikely to type fast enough on a real >TTY to cause framing errors... Anyway the *true* joy of Baudot is that >ridiculous keyboard layout, and all that crap with FIGS and LTRS, using a >computer would miss some of the wackiness. Geez, I miss my model 19... > >John Wilson >D Bit > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Feb 16 23:13:56 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: <20000216185747.D26896@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> References: <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000216211356.00746d60@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Folks: 56K packet has been running the Vancouver area for over 5 years. We have two repeaters and a third waiting to be installed. It's on the 70 cm band. It's a TCP/IP network, UNIX based, and fully interconnected to the Internet. Kevin At 06:57 PM 00/02/16 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 04:31:51PM -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> In the 2 meter band in the U.S., at least, Hams are restricted to 1200 baud. > >No, not exactly. But we are limited to the same bandwidth as an FM >voice channel, so there is a practical limit. 9600 baud fits into the >permissible deviation well enough and is commonly used on 2 meters. (Doing >true FSK rather than an audio simulation of FSK helps minimize the bandwidth >used.) More speed might be possible with the kinds of fancy tricks that >gave us 56K landline modems (and some hams experiment with that kind of stuff). > >On 440MHz and above there are some 100khz channels available. For those, >56K is the most popular high-speed mode (but pretty scarce at that). You >need a modem that outputs a 10 meter carrier pre-modulated with the signal, >and a transverter to get from there to the desired frequency; so that makes >it expensive (~$1000 to fully equip a station with new equipment) and >that's why it's not really common IMO. There have also been experiments >with 2 and 10 mbps microwave links using gunn diode transceivers and >ethernet cards and slower network cards. And now that spread-spectrum >is wide open for experimentation without any STA's required, I expect >that to be the next hotbed of activity. Most or all of the no-license-required >wireless ethernet devices operate in ham bands (we have to share the >bandwidth with them), so it's possible and legal to use high-gain antennae >and perhaps bigger power amps to use that kind of equipment for long- >distance links. The new regs require dynamic control of output power >though - you can't output any more power than is necessary to maintain >the link, and the control of it must be automated. > >But so far the fastest I'm doing is 9600 baud (on 2 meters). > >-- > _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud > (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com > __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 16 23:15:09 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges Message-ID: <20000217051509.81785.qmail@hotmail.com> Jerome, Well if you need 1.3 GB ones, I have 90-something, mostly used but a few are new... all are rewriteable MO disks, all are HP Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Feb 16 23:48:56 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000216211356.00746d60@ferrari.sfu.ca>; from Kevin McQuiggin on Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 09:13:56PM -0800 References: <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> <20000216185747.D26896@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <3.0.1.32.20000216211356.00746d60@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <20000216224856.L19165@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 09:13:56PM -0800, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > 56K packet has been running the Vancouver area for over 5 years. We have > two repeaters and a third waiting to be installed. It's on the 70 cm band. > It's a TCP/IP network, UNIX based, and fully interconnected to the Internet. I know, that network is the envy of most other places. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From paulrsm at ameritech.net Wed Feb 16 23:54:48 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <20000217055854.BEJ12286.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> The Merlin assembler for the Apple II came with a demo program that would disassemble the Applesoft BASIC ROMs, with comments. I can provide this disassembly to you. I think Microsoft sold their 6502 BASIC to Commodore, complete with source code. Commodore was then able to change the code as needed for their various 6502 computers. ---------- > From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. > To: ClassCompList > Subject: Source code for BASIC > Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 08:42 PM > > Here's another question...does anyone have a pointer to the source code for > a 6502-based BASIC interpreter that's ROMable? From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Feb 17 00:20:15 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: FW: DigiData 9-tracker, I/F, and software for sale Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000216222015.00937500@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Found this fellow advertising in a ham radio group. I've given him some correction on that, and offered to forward what he has to the list. I'm no DigiData expert, but he tells me that the driver software that comes with the drive is DOS-based. This tells me it's either SCSI or Pertec (SCSI most likely), and decent SCSI 9-trackers are rare. He's in Durham, NC, and I doubt he'd be looking for a mint on this thing. Whoever wants a crack at this, please contact him directly. -=-=- -=-=- >>For Sale, best offer: >> >>9-track tape drive, rack-mount >>Digidata Corp, model 1749-86-4-120-FD-UL >>w/ software, 8-10"reels, 6-8" reels >>in good working condition "Chris Slacke" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Feb 17 00:28:15 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges In-Reply-To: <38AB0434.7B20A49D@idirect.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000216222815.009512c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 15:10 16-02-2000 -0500, you wrote: >I am looking for a source for the 600 Mbyte magneto optical >5 1/4" cartridges with 512 byte per sector. Tim Shoppa >has mentioned in the past that he might know where I can Did that drive arrive yet, Jerome? Honestly, I'd be surprised if it had. I think it's still too soon. Thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Feb 17 02:05:40 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: <20000216185747.D26896@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org>; from rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com on Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 06:57:47PM -0700 References: <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> <20000216185747.D26896@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <20000217030540.A22055@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 06:57:47PM -0700, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > No, not exactly. But we are limited to the same bandwidth as an FM > voice channel, so there is a practical limit. 9600 baud fits into the > permissible deviation well enough and is commonly used on 2 meters. (Doing > true FSK rather than an audio simulation of FSK helps minimize the bandwidth > used.) Wait, 9600 baud in an audio channel using FSK?!?!?! I failed almost every course I ever took but I coulda sworn there was some rule that you couldn't get more BPS than half the channel width with FSK? What are the tone freqs (and which is which, does the L.S.M.F.T. rule still apply?)? John Wilson D Bit From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Feb 16 19:05:39 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <200002170105.UAA13119@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:49:57 -0500 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Looking through the first few feet of "real data"... > > > >No high bits, the first few bytes are: > >00111011 x3b ';' (was hoping for the start of an assembly comment) > >00110010 x32 '2' (nope, looks like some sort of hex...) > >00110000 x30 '0' > >01000001 x41 'A' > >00110000 x30 '0' > >00110000 x30 '0' > >00110000 x30 '0' > >00110011 x33 '3' > >00111001 x39 '9' > >01000001 x41 'A' This looks to me like MOS Technologies checksum hex format, as used on the KIM-1. > That makes some sense, "20" is the 6502 opcode for a JSR (jump to > subroutine). The next two bytes are presumably the subroutine's > address, and "39" is the 6502 opcode for an AND abolute,Y instruction. Not if it's MOS Tech. hex! The first two digits are the length of the block (in hex), then four digits of address, then the hex for the data block. There'll be a checksum on the end. In this case, we've got a 32-byte block (20 hex) starting at address A000. This format is also used on the UK101, and is accepted by many types of EPROM programmer. > Tim. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From wrm at ccii.co.za Thu Feb 17 08:46:30 2000 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning Message-ID: <200002171534.RAA21155@ccii.co.za> Ack! I said: >dahdidit dit dahdahdidah dididit didahdahdahdah dahdidah dit >didahdidahdit dahdidah. And of course it should be dahdahdidit dididit, d?mmit! Shows you how long ago I've played with my radios! Wouter "Where's QS1 anyway" ZS1KE From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Feb 17 09:38:09 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release Message-ID: <01BF7933.160BFA80.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Tuesday, February 15, 2000 11:29 PM, Joe [SMTP:rigdonj@intellistar.net] wrote: > Hi, > > I spotted a HP 3000 system 37 today in a scrap place. It has two HP 7963 > drives and a bunch of other stuff that I don't recognize. Can anyone tell > me something about them? > Question for the HP gurus: Since it's not too far away, I was thinking about grabbing the system. So, can I use my 3000/42 FOS tapes to reinstall the OS on the 37? Thanks. Steve Robertson - From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Feb 17 09:41:33 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges References: <3.0.5.32.20000216222815.009512c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <38AC16AD.5DC12634@idirect.com> >Bruce Lane wrote: > >I am looking for a source for the 600 Mbyte magneto optical > >5 1/4" cartridges with 512 byte per sector. Tim Shoppa > >has mentioned in the past that he might know where I can > Did that drive arrive yet, Jerome? Honestly, I'd be surprised if it had. I > think it's still too soon. Jerome Fine replies: Nothing in sight as yet. Do you possible have a tracking number? Also, was the shipment sent by pre-paid freight and I will include the shipping cost when I pay you for the drive - or is UPS supposed to collect the shipping cost when the package is delivered? Thank you again for sending it. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From kees.stravers at iae.nl Thu Feb 17 10:06:06 2000 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: Send/Receive (BAUDOT) in GWBASIC (was Ham Stats) Message-ID: <20000217160606.2F01420F1A@mail.iae.nl> On 2000-02-16 classiccmp@classiccmp.org said to kees.stravers@iae.nl cl>Hi Gang: cl>Further to this discussion of 5 bit characters on a DL11, this was cl>also possible on the PCjr. I wrote a BASIC send/receive RTTY cl>program for the PCjr in 1985. It used an esoteric mode of the cl>particular serial chip on the PCjr, to support 5 data bits and 1.5 cl>stop bits. The DTR pin of the serial port was used to toggle the cl>radio from transmit to receive. My modem was homebrew, built around cl>an XR2211 (IIRC) chip. I still have the modem buried in the cl>crawlspace somewhere. This was also possible with the serial port of a regular PC. I have been running a RTTY BBS on 144 MHz for 10 years, based on a TRS-80 Model I program I ported to the PC and extended. My program even had an interface to the nearest packet radio BBS, so RTTY users could exchange mail with packet users, and later the system could also communicate in CW (morse code) so you could send emails without having a computer. But nobody uses RTTY anymore, and even CW is on the decline, so I have taken the BBS down, no more users. Kees -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ My home page http://www.vaxarchive.org/ Info on old DEC VAX computers Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 17 11:07:08 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:03 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges In-Reply-To: <38AB0434.7B20A49D@idirect.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000217120708.210f026a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Jerome, What are you going to use the MO drive on? Just curious. I have a SMO-501 also. It's SLOW!! The transfer rate and access time are WORSE than a floppy drive. Joe At 03:10 PM 2/16/00 -0500, you wrote: >I am looking for a source for the 600 Mbyte magneto optical >5 1/4" cartridges with 512 byte per sector. Tim Shoppa >has mentioned in the past that he might know where I can >find some. Does anyone else? These will be used in a >SONY SMO S-501 5 1/4" magneto optical disk drive. > >I have checked eBay, but they are usually sold as is? > >Sincerely yours, > >Jerome Fine > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 17 11:12:53 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000215232909.3a6796c6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000217121253.210f155c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Aaron, At 10:20 AM 2/16/00 -0800, you wrote: >Hi Joe, > >According to my parts list, the 7963 is a 304meg HD. Yes it's 300 something Mb but it can hold up to three drives in each case! I have one here with three drives that's on a 9000 375 that I got from NASA. Beyond that, I don't >know much about them. Were you thinking of picking the stuff up? Did you >get any model numbers from the other stuff? Some of it said System 6000. That's all I got a look at. There are at least three of the short HP cabinents and all are full. I'm THINKING of picking it up but I certainly don't need it or have room for it. Why? do you want it? If so it's in Sanford, Florida. I can put you in contact with the owner and help arrange shipping but I don't have the time, money or means to ship it. The owner has the means to ship it if it's worth his while. Joe > >Cheers, > >Aaron > >On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Joe wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I spotted a HP 3000 system 37 today in a scrap place. It has two HP 7963 >> drives and a bunch of other stuff that I don't recognize. Can anyone tell >> me something about them? >> >> Joe >> >> At 03:52 PM 2/15/00 -0800, you wrote: >> >Seconded! I don't think "helpful" comes close to describing his attitude! >> > >> >I think HP is a model for how classy a giant computer company can really >> >be. Their attitude toward us home enthusiasts is, "well, we had the >> >software ready for someone to use...why not send it out to hobbyists for >> >free as well!" I could hardly believe that they not only offered me the >> >full install set (full subsys tapes, everything), but then he's including >> >extra system manuals and tips on avoiding installation pitfalls as well! I >> >am absolutely blown away...thanks again, Stan... >> > >> >Cheers, >> > >> >Aaron >> > >> >On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: >> > >> >> On Tuesday, February 08, 2000 7:33 PM, Stan Sieler [SMTP:ss@allegro.com] >> >> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> >> > >> >> > If you have a Classic HP 3000 (any two-digit model #), >> >> > and if you received the "Y2K Safe" release of MPE recently, >> >> > and if you haven't installed it yet, >> >> > I have some notes that you should find interesting. >> >> > >> >> > (If you didn't get your Y2K Safe MPE V (which was free!), >> >> > email Allan Hertling at allan_hertling@hp.com) >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> Thanks for the info Stan, >> >> >> >> I sent an email to Allan asking about the upgrade and he was EXTREMELY >> >> helpful. My system (HP 3000/42 Classic) did not have any patches applied >> >> for a very long time so, he's gonna send the whole package. The best part >> >> is it's absolutely FREE! >> >> >> >> All in all, HP has been extremely helpful in providing upgrades for my >> 3000 >> >> and 9000s. >> >> >> >> Steve Robertson - >> >> >> > >> > >> > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 17 11:25:39 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: TOUCH for DOS/Windows In-Reply-To: <008001bf78e7$f4ba6ce0$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000217122539.210fa058@mailhost.intellistar.net> Rich, Yeap, there was one is the DOS PowerTools book. I'll email it directly to you. Joe At 08:37 PM 2/16/00 -0500, you wrote: >Hello, all: > > Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH utility?? > >Rich >[ Rich Cini/WUGNET >[ ClubWin!/CW1 >[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >[ Collector of "classic" computers >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ ><================ reply separator =================> > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Feb 17 11:07:27 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges Message-ID: <007801bf7969$7e445e40$0400c0a8@winbook> A friend of mine and I had about a dozen of those SMO-501's back in about '89 or '90. We cleaned and upgraded them. Their performance on a PC of that era was comparable to the previous generation of PC-based SCSI hard disks. It was not impressive, but it wasn't terribly slow. We had so much trouble keeping them at $1k each that I never used one myself at all. They were just too valuable to keep. From what I remember, their performance was more or less comparable to my Iomega 8" Bernoulli Boxes, though they were MUCH larger in capacity. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, February 17, 2000 9:53 AM Subject: Re: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges >Jerome, > > What are you going to use the MO drive on? Just curious. I have a >SMO-501 also. It's SLOW!! The transfer rate and access time are WORSE than >a floppy drive. > > Joe > >At 03:10 PM 2/16/00 -0500, you wrote: >>I am looking for a source for the 600 Mbyte magneto optical >>5 1/4" cartridges with 512 byte per sector. Tim Shoppa >>has mentioned in the past that he might know where I can >>find some. Does anyone else? These will be used in a >>SONY SMO S-501 5 1/4" magneto optical disk drive. >> >>I have checked eBay, but they are usually sold as is? >> >>Sincerely yours, >> >>Jerome Fine >> >> > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Feb 17 10:16:51 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges Message-ID: <002401bf7962$66a66500$1d2dd1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, February 17, 2000 11:45 AM Subject: Re: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges >Jerome, > > What are you going to use the MO drive on? Just curious. I have a >SMO-501 also. It's SLOW!! The transfer rate and access time are WORSE than >a floppy drive. They weren't that slow. We got some Beta units at the leg. for our Mac platform. I used one as my *primary* drive for years. Was nice as I could swap my development platters (MPW versions, other test junk) instantly. I never lost data and they were very reliable... more reliable than the hard drives at the time! I am looking to buy one again now. I would like to back up all this dec software on them. I know the data won't be lost if it goes on one of those drives. I feel bad now because I chucked it in the garbage a couple of years ago.... It had a carrying case and 12 platters :-( john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Feb 17 12:53:10 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: Steve Robertson's message of "Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:38:09 -0500" References: <01BF7933.160BFA80.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <200002171853.KAA13604@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Steve Robertson wrote: > On Tuesday, February 15, 2000 11:29 PM, Joe [SMTP:rigdonj@intellistar.net] wrote: > > I spotted a HP 3000 system 37 today in a scrap place. It has two HP 7963 > > Question for the HP gurus: > > Since it's not too far away, I was thinking about grabbing the > system. So, can I use my 3000/42 FOS tapes to reinstall the OS on > the 37? Good question. I'm not sure. The 37 has writable control store and so when it boots from tape I think it will want to find a WCS image in the SYSDUMP prefix on the tape. Would the 42 FOS tapes have that WCS image? I suspect there need to be at least two different types of MPE V/E FOS tapes to boot all 3000s supporting MPE V/E: one for 37s (and maybe for the various Micro 3000s -- do they use the same microinstructions and WCS images?), one for 64?/68/70s, and maybe one for the non-WCS 3000s. -Frank McConnell From Mzthompson at aol.com Thu Feb 17 12:58:04 2000 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Subject: Re: TOUCH for DOS/Windows Message-ID: <7b.1895fb3.25dd9ebc@aol.com> "Richard A. Cini, Jr." asked: > Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH utility?? Borland included TOUCH with their Turbo Pascal and Turbo C packages. Also there was a version available thru PC Magazine, created circa 1988 by Michael J. Mefford. If your like most, you probably got some floppies full of utilities that PCMag was always putting out. Here is the syntax for the PCMag version: TOUCH filespec [/D date] [/T time] date = month-day-year time = hour[:minutes[:seconds]] Default is system date and time. Mike From Mzthompson at aol.com Thu Feb 17 12:58:00 2000 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Harddisk DEC DSP3210S Message-ID: <9d.20300b3.25dd9eb8@aol.com> "J.-P. Hofer" wrote: > I am looking for technical information about a SCSI harddisk > DEC DSP3210S. > Does anyone have some details about jumper settings, capacity and > other specifications ? Physical-Log. Modes UNFORMAT WIDTH PLs CYLS CYLS INTERFACE AVG. CACHE PIO MODEL NUMBER FORMAT'D HGT. HDs PRCP HDs REC.METH. TK-TK RPM DMA HA. S/T L-ZN S/T COMMENTS AND ADITIONAL INFO. REV ============================================================================= 2688.0MB 3.50 8 3045 SCSI-2F 10ms 1024KB 2148.0MB 41.4 16 NONE (1,7)RLL 1.0ms 5,400 DSP3210 VC MZ AUTO R/S ECC, 59-119 SECTORS/TRACK _____________________________________________________________________________ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Feb 17 13:28:03 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges In-Reply-To: <002401bf7962$66a66500$1d2dd1d8@default> Message-ID: <4.1.20000217112703.00c60b40@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 11:16 AM 2/17/00 -0500, John B wrote: >I am looking to buy one again now. I would like to back up all this dec >software on them. I know the data won't be lost if it goes on one of those >drives. I feel bad now because I chucked it in the garbage a couple of years >ago.... It had a carrying case and 12 platters :-( I'll trade you a couple of MO drives for a PDP 11/20 with 8K of core :-) --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 17 12:29:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Send/Receive (BAUDOT) in GWBASIC (was Ham Stats) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000216211106.02fd5d98@ferrari.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Feb 16, 0 09:11:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1144 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000217/1888da09/attachment.ksh From ss at allegro.com Thu Feb 17 14:58:37 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: <01BF7933.160BFA80.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <200002172059.MAA22139@opus.allegro.com> Re: > > I spotted a HP 3000 system 37 today in a scrap place. It has two HP 7963 > Since it's not too far away, I was thinking about grabbing the system. > So, can I use my 3000/42 FOS tapes to reinstall the OS on the 37? Definitely. I don't recall the size of a 7963, but I'm sure the install will work...and the 7963's are probably big enough to restore all the subsys files. SS Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Thu Feb 17 15:01:16 2000 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: ham radio? Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E34@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Wouff-Hong (sp?) Boy, that's an obscure reference. When I was in high-school, (back in the 70's) I picked up a couple of big boxes of QST magazines at a ham auction. Most of 'em were from the 1940's and 50's, but they were _very_ interesting reading, especially if you were into tinkering with old world-war II receivers (like the ARC-5 series...) I ran across a number of articles that mentioned the Wouff-Hong. From what I can remember, it was a wierdly-shaped piece of wood with a couple of rusty bits of metal hanging from it (probably was a fragment of an old cart hitch or something along those lines) From what I can remember, someone at ARRL headquarters found this item lying around somewhere in a storage area, and hung it on the wall just for grins. Nobody knew what it actually was, but it became kind of a joke to threaten to use it on someone as a punishment instrument if they did something against the ham ethic. I haven't heard a reference to it since high-school reading foray into the ham-past. (until now, that is :-) -al- (KD4TTQ) -acorda@geocities.com > -----Original Message----- > From: John Wilson [mailto:wilson@dbit.dbit.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 10:11 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: ham radio? > > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 06:49:55PM -0600, jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > > I think someone hit him with the Wouff-hong. > > Geez, it's been waaaay too long, what's that again? And I forget what > a Wollongong (sp?) is too... > > John Wilson KC1P (formerly KA1BNJ from Sep '78 -- Bad News John!) > D Bit > From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Feb 17 15:04:05 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Send/Receive (BAUDOT) in GWBASIC (was Ham Stats) Message-ID: <200002172104.NAA14962@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:29:59 +0000 (GMT) classiccmp@classiccmp.org wrote: > A word of warning for anyone trying to use the code that was below on a PC. > Firstly the PCjr serial port is at 0x2F8 (==COM2 on most PCs). Secondly, > and more importantly, the master clock fed to the chip in the PCjr is > different to that used in PCs (and PC/XTs, PC/ATs, etc). Therefore you'll > need to recalculate the baud rate divisors if you want to use it on a PC. I calculated the divisors in the program by hand, extrapolating from the values given in the technical reference for standard, higher baud rates. Kevin From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Feb 17 15:17:44 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: TOUCH for DOS/Windows Message-ID: <200002172117.NAA23511@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> If anyone wants this utility, I can put a copy on my highgate machine for general access. Kevin On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:58:04 EST classiccmp@classiccmp.org wrote: > "Richard A. Cini, Jr." asked: > > > Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH utility?? > > Borland included TOUCH with their Turbo Pascal and Turbo C packages. > > Also there was a version available thru PC Magazine, created circa 1988 > by Michael J. Mefford. If your like most, you probably got some floppies > full of utilities that PCMag was always putting out. > > Here is the syntax for the PCMag version: > > TOUCH filespec [/D date] [/T time] > date = month-day-year > time = hour[:minutes[:seconds]] > Default is system date and time. > > Mike From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 17 16:22:46 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC In-Reply-To: <004701bf781f$54c3ca60$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: <200002172123.WAA09596@mail2.siemens.de> > Here's another question...does anyone have a pointer to the source code for > a 6502-based BASIC interpreter that's ROMable? What about: Do-It-Yourself ? A Basic Interpreter isn't that hard to do. And don't forget the benefit that you finaly get a Basic as you always wanted ... Servus Hans -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 17 15:27:38 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Send/Receive (BAUDOT) in GWBASIC (was Ham Stats) In-Reply-To: <200002172104.NAA14962@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Feb 17, 0 01:04:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1090 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000217/c1653bac/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 17 14:43:25 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe In-Reply-To: <200002130421.UAA31546@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000217154325.45878b14@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:21 PM 2/12/00 -0800, you wrote: >IBM developed the front loading 2315 disc drive in the 60's, and is the >basis for Diablo 31, Wanco, Pertec, HP 7900, and DEC RK05 2.5Mb single >platter removable disc drives. > >>Pertec Blue, I would suspect someone would want them for their Altair 8800b's > > No, these aren't floppy drives. > >I know.. take a look at the Pertec adds in Byte in the early 80's, and there >should be pictures of these drives in configurations with late MITS systems >after MITS was bought by Pertec. > >Plessey also sold Pertec drives with their clone of the RK-11 disc controller. > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 17 15:09:39 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges In-Reply-To: <002401bf7962$66a66500$1d2dd1d8@default> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000217160939.40d713de@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:16 AM 2/17/00 -0500, you wrote: > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Date: Thursday, February 17, 2000 11:45 AM >Subject: Re: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges > > >>Jerome, >> >> What are you going to use the MO drive on? Just curious. I have a >>SMO-501 also. It's SLOW!! The transfer rate and access time are WORSE than >>a floppy drive. > > >They weren't that slow. Mine is. The access time is something close to 100ms. The transfer rate is about 2/3 that of a floppy drive. Joe From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Feb 17 16:04:30 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: 4 - TK50 Drives Available Message-ID: <200002172204.OAA23177@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> Hi Group: I have four TK50 tape drives available as surplus. All were working spares from a local DEC installation. I already have too many and have to get rid of these. Here's the deal. A nominal amount (US$10 ea), and you pay shipping. Please email me directly if you're interested in one or more. Kevin From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 17 17:09:23 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: TOUCH for DOS/Windows In-Reply-To: <200002172117.NAA23511@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000217180923.4ce7070e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Address? At 01:17 PM 2/17/00 PST, you wrote: >If anyone wants this utility, I can put a copy on my highgate machine for general access. > >Kevin > > >On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:58:04 EST classiccmp@classiccmp.org wrote: >> "Richard A. Cini, Jr." asked: >> >> > Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH utility?? >> >> Borland included TOUCH with their Turbo Pascal and Turbo C packages. >> >> Also there was a version available thru PC Magazine, created circa 1988 >> by Michael J. Mefford. If your like most, you probably got some floppies >> full of utilities that PCMag was always putting out. >> >> Here is the syntax for the PCMag version: >> >> TOUCH filespec [/D date] [/T time] >> date = month-day-year >> time = hour[:minutes[:seconds]] >> Default is system date and time. >> >> Mike > > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 17 17:14:46 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? In-Reply-To: References: <57.1bc412e.25d3e5b9@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000217181446.504fb2be@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I just picked up one of these with the Z-80, Z-80AA, 8080, 8085, 6800, 6809, 8051 and 8048 pods. Has anyone else got one other than Al and Jeff? What do you think of them? Has anyone ever tried to repair the tape drive capstans on them? Has anyone ever tried to built the probe for one? BTW these date from around 1981 and are powered by Z-80s so they're on-topic. Joe From aek at spies.com Thu Feb 17 16:43:11 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? Message-ID: <200002172243.OAA10208@spies.com> "Has anyone else got one other than Al and Jeff?" Yes, there are a bunch of arcade game collectors that have them. "Has anyone ever tried to built the probe for one?" Not that I know of. The probes always get separated from the units (along with the docs and pods). The probes are going for big bucks on eBay ($75-$100). Popular pods (6502,6809,Z80,68K) sell pretty high there as well. Of course, what this stuff sells for on eBay is LOW compared to what the used test equipment scalpers want for them ($250 and up for pods). 9010s are very useful when you're trying to debug embedded hardware (like video game boards) that have no I/O "Has anyone ever tried to repair the tape drive capstans on them?" They are Braemar mini-data cassette drives, you may still be able to get parts from them, and cassettes (which are NOT the same as mini dictation cassettes) From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Feb 17 17:06:04 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Software Results Corp Unibus 68000 board? Message-ID: <000217180604.25601ef6@trailing-edge.com> Hi folks, I just found a "Software Results Corporation" Unibus (hex-height) board with an array of 32 2114 memory chips and a big fat 68000 chip on it. There's a COM5025 (UART?) and two 40-pin headers on the edge. Date codes are from early 1984, and there's a surprising amount of 54LS (and no 74LS) logic on the board, leading me to think that this may have been intended for the military market. Is this, by any chance, a coprocessor type board, or is it a "master" CPU? Am I imagining things, or has "Software Results Corporation" been mentioned on this list recently? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 17 17:24:41 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Macintosh Portable problems Message-ID: <20000217232441.68684.qmail@hotmail.com> >I assume you used sealed lead-acid batteries? > >-Mike Yep, I uesd the exact type of batteries ("Cyclon" 2V, 5.0 Ah cells) that were originally in it. They are new cells. I am tempted to believe that the AC Adaptor/Charger has gone south on me. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, Double FDD, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Feb 17 18:37:18 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? References: <57.1bc412e.25d3e5b9@aol.com> <3.0.1.16.20000217181446.504fb2be@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <001401bf79a8$50c4bac0$3d711fd1@default> I have the same with the pods also but have tried using it yet. John ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe To: Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 5:14 PM Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? > Hi, > > I just picked up one of these with the Z-80, Z-80AA, 8080, 8085, 6800, > 6809, 8051 and 8048 pods. Has anyone else got one other than Al and Jeff? > What do you think of them? Has anyone ever tried to repair the tape drive > capstans on them? Has anyone ever tried to built the probe for one? BTW > these date from around 1981 and are powered by Z-80s so they're on-topic. > > Joe > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 18:49:26 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Software Results Corp Unibus 68000 board? Message-ID: <20000218004926.11754.qmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > Hi folks, > > I just found a "Software Results Corporation" Unibus > (hex-height) board with an array of 32 2114 memory chips and > a big fat 68000 chip on it. There's a COM5025 (UART?) and two > 40-pin headers on the edge. Yup. Cool. Out of perverse curiosity, what's the S/N? I can eventually look it up and tell you who used to own it. I might have even been the guy that pulled the parts from inventory and tested the finished product. > Date codes are from early 1984, > and there's a surprising amount of 54LS (and no 74LS) logic on the > board, leading me to think that this may have been intended for the > military market. Nope... the company got tired of snooping down bad chips. The boards were a couple of grand, customer cost, so MIL-SPEC chips were not a horrible cut into the profit margin and were, at the time, individually tested. It saved enough on labor to be worth the expense. > Is this, by any chance, a coprocessor type board, or is it a > "master" CPU? It is an intellegent synchronous serial card with onboard line-printer capability. On a RSTS/E system, you could avoid spooling jobs through the system line printer queue, saving many CPU cycles. We used to hang LA-180's right off of the printer port or sell a printer adapter for Dataproducts interfaced printers. > Am I imagining things, or has "Software Results Corporation" > been mentioned on this list recently? Yes. I was hired there in 1984 and eventually bought the name and rights to the software/hardware/customer list and provided service between 1993 and 1995 to all the customers who bought them in the 1980s (by 1990 sales were effectively non-existant except for upgrades). Coincidentally, SRC was the company that took out the full page back ad on "CPU Wars", now on the web at http://www.e-pix.com/CPUWARS/cpuwars.html I have all the software, firmware, schematics, wire-wrap prototypes, *everything* for them. Unless you want to speak 3780 or HASP to some other device from your Unibus PDP-11 or VAX, that board is useless. The dual 6309 PROMs are only smart enough to feed more complicated programs through a CSR window into the 16K of SRAM. Even simple diagnostics are downloaded at runtime, character by character. In its protocol emulation mode, it uses 16-bit DMA to feed buffers back and forth. Unless I am seriously misinformed, this board was the first single-board DMA device for the Unibus. Software Results pioneered the removal of the NPR jumper to allow such things to work (prior to this, DMA devices were one _backplane_ that broke grant between the input and output Unibus cables). We had to ship dual-height grant cards to accomodate the absence of the board when it was removed for diagnostic or repair purposes. More trivia: this board uses SRAM because of two early DRAM problems. Intel RAM was having higher than expected single bit errors (thought at first to be cosmic rays, but later proven to be stray alpha particles emitted from the minute quantities of radioactive materials in the ceramic packages). Additionally, the first batch of 68K CPU chips (my old boss still has XC68000 S/N 424, yes, there is a serial number engraved on the lid) had microcode glitches that caused longer than advertised bus cycles. For those designers that borrowed/copied/migrated existing Z-80 refresh schemes, the outages were long enough to interfere in some cases, causing catastrophic memory loss. SRC went with 2114s for reliability. ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 18:51:11 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? Message-ID: <20000218005111.18134.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Al Kossow wrote: > "Has anyone else got one other than Al and Jeff?" > > Yes, there are a bunch of arcade game collectors that have them. Me. > "Has anyone ever tried to built the probe for one?" No. > Not that I know of. The probes always get separated from the > units (along with the docs and pods). The probes are going for > big bucks on eBay ($75-$100). Popular pods (6502,6809,Z80,68K) > sell pretty high there as well. I have only the 68000 pod. I'd *love* to land a 6502 pod. I would get some serious use. Mine came from Software Results Corp. (see other thread) and was used for testing COMBOARDs. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 17 18:01:26 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? Message-ID: <200002180001.TAA20467@world.std.com> >> I just found a "Software Results Corporation" Unibus >> (hex-height) board with an array of 32 2114 memory chips and >> a big fat 68000 chip on it. There's a COM5025 (UART?) and two >> 40-pin headers on the edge. >Yup. Cool. Even cooler that you know all about it :-). > Out of perverse curiosity, what's the S/N? I can eventually >look it up and tell you who used to own it. I might have even been the >guy that pulled the parts from inventory and tested the finished product. SN 1245, Rev 3.0. There's a handwritten "O" before the "CBD-X31" designation on the board. >I have all the software, firmware, schematics, wire-wrap prototypes, >*everything* for them. Unless you want to speak 3780 or HASP to some other >device from your Unibus PDP-11 or VAX, that board is useless. In that case, would anyone else on the list want to grab it? >Unless I am seriously misinformed, this board was the first single-board >DMA device for the Unibus. The RL11 and RX211 both date from 1978 or so and do DMA from a single Unibus slot. Seeing how the date on this 68000 board is 1982, does this mean that a predecessor to this board was being made in 1978 or earlier? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ss at allegro.com Thu Feb 17 21:04:55 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: <200002172059.MAA22139@opus.allegro.com> References: <01BF7933.160BFA80.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <200002180305.TAA26155@opus.allegro.com> Hi, > > So, can I use my 3000/42 FOS tapes to reinstall the OS on the 37? > > Definitely. I don't recall the size of a 7963, but I'm sure the install will Now I'm not so sure :) Stan Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Feb 17 21:29:08 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000217181446.504fb2be@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <57.1bc412e.25d3e5b9@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000217222710.00b672d0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 06:14 PM 2/17/00 -0500, Joe said something like: >Hi, > > I just picked up one of these with the Z-80, Z-80AA, 8080, 8085, 6800, >6809, 8051 and 8048 pods. Has anyone else got one other than Al and Jeff? >What do you think of them? Has anyone ever tried to repair the tape drive >capstans on them? Has anyone ever tried to built the probe for one? BTW >these date from around 1981 and are powered by Z-80s so they're on-topic. I've got several around here along with Z80, 8088, 6809E and 68000 pods. No experience with the tape drives yet. Does this hit that they could be a pest? :-0 Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 17 22:07:36 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? In-Reply-To: <200002172243.OAA10208@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000217230736.321fc066@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:43 PM 2/17/00 -0800, Al wrote: >"Has anyone else got one other than Al and Jeff?" > >Yes, there are a bunch of arcade game collectors that have them. I meant to ask if anyone else on this list had one. > >"Has anyone ever tried to built the probe for one?" > >Not that I know of. The probes always get separated from the >units (along with the docs and pods). The probes are going for >big bucks on eBay ($75-$100). Popular pods (6502,6809,Z80,68K) >sell pretty high there as well. Of course, what this stuff >sells for on eBay is LOW compared to what the used test equipment >scalpers want for them ($250 and up for pods). I know! I can get plenty of pods but the probes are very hard to find. I've looked at the probes and there's almost nothing in them. Two LEDs, two transistors and a few descrete components. > >9010s are very useful when you're trying to debug embedded hardware >(like video game boards) that have no I/O > >"Has anyone ever tried to repair the tape drive >capstans on them?" > >They are Braemar mini-data cassette drives, you may still be able >to get parts from them, and cassettes (which are NOT the same as >mini dictation cassettes) OK what's a "Braemar drive"? I know the audio tapes are different. The Fluke ones seem to be the same as the tapes for the HP 82163 tape drive. I've tried unsuccessfully to find a substitute for those for years. I don't know if the tapes are interchangeable with the HP ones. The write protect switch is different and the tape length may be different. BTW Fluke's price for the tape drive in 1990 was $550! > Joe From mac at Wireless.Com Thu Feb 17 23:01:19 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Macintosh Portable problems In-Reply-To: <20000217232441.68684.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Could you please check the voltage (ideally under load) of the charger? Possibly you could use a 'scope, just to be sure? Then I'll measure mine. -Mike On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, David Vohs wrote: > >I assume you used sealed lead-acid batteries? > > > >-Mike > > Yep, I uesd the exact type of batteries ("Cyclon" 2V, 5.0 Ah cells) that > were originally in it. They are new cells. I am tempted to believe that the > AC Adaptor/Charger has gone south on me. > ____________________________________________________________ > David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. > > Computer Collection: > > "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, Double FDD, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. > "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. > "Delorean": TI-99/4A. > "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 00:16:10 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Software Results Corp Unibus 68000 board? Message-ID: <20000218061610.18808.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >> I just found a "Software Results Corporation" Unibus board... > > > Cool. > > Even cooler that you know all about it :-). There aren't many people in the world who know more than I (at this point, probably nobody ;-) I never expected anyone to ever want to use this stuff ever again. > > Out of perverse curiosity, what's the S/N? > > SN 1245, Rev 3.0. I almost certainly made that board. I started there around 700-800. I even seem to remember that particular one. When I get around to snarfing up the backup tapes and sticking them on CD, I'll be sure to look that one up. It really does ring a bell. We only made that model up to around 1300-1400, IIRC (yes, starting at "1"; I still have some working Rev 1 boards with double digit serial numbers). The dates of the chips do _not_ reflect the manufacturing date, BTW. At one point, we had several *years* supplies of certain ICs due to aggressive overbuying by our comptroller to avoid the shortages that plagued us in the early days. It's why we had *tubes* of 50256 DRAMs that bought at $80 per chip that didn't get used until the price had fallen to $35 per chip. :-( Some of those same chips later ended up in my Amiga when I salvaged an engineering prototype from the dumpster. I know which ones they are by the hand-drawn "U number" identifying labels still stuck to the tops. > >I have all the software, firmware, schematics, wire-wrap prototypes... > > In that case, would anyone else on the list want to grab it? I haven't exactly agreed to post this stuff. It's a massive clot of MACRO, 68K assembler and C code that while not exactly commercially viable would be a major pain on my part to package up to be useful to anyone. As an employee, it took me weeks on the clock to get things to the point where I could build the software from scratch. Also, the C compiler used by the COMBOARD-I products is *not* VAX-C, it's Whitesmith's C and AFAIK I don't have the power to grant those licenses (SRC did, but the corporation dissolved years ago). We never ported our older products to VAX-C, only the newer Qbus and VAX-BI products. There was no point - the customer received binaries and _we_ had no problem using a 12-year-old compiler for 12-year-old code. It was ancient tools, but to the final days, I could incorporate changes to the source and have a new production tree ready to ship in 5 hours of disk thrashing (from typing *one* build command, I might add!) In short, it's possibly of archeological use, but unless you *really* want to speak Bisync to some IBM hardware with VMS 4.5 - 5.4, I don't know how useful any of it would be. There is source code for PDP-11 products, but I am even less confident of being able to even make a working binary distribution tape. I _have_ all the stuff but I haven't done a single thing with it since 1994. The original Unibus board is historically fascinating, but not very extensible. There's a later Unibus board, the COMBOARD-II, that has an entirely different and incompatible DMA interface (transparent to the user because those details are hidden in the driver) with 128K of 4164 DRAMs, but the same printer interface and COM5025. For me, at least, our final products, the COMBOARD-Q (Qbus w/Z8530 Dual SIO and 512K RAM) or the COMBOARD-BI (10Mhz 68010, BI interface, 2Mb RAM and Z8530) are the ones most likely to be turned into something interesting. Unfortunately, the worlds supply of available Q-boards (as we called them in-house) is approximately two, and one of *those* was removed from the walls of the trade show booth, and is lacking in the basic ECOs to be operational. I have crates of COMBOARD-I and COMBOARD-II models, but I do not have a working test bed since my DWBUA BI-to-Unibus adapter board smoked. :-( The VAX 8300 works just fine, but I have no way to test Unibus boards beyond basic boot functions in a PDP-11 test bed (with that Fluke 9010 that's been mentioned in the other thread). Sorry to rain on your parade, but given the freeze-dried nature of the software, you'd have to present a pretty convincing argument for me to divert the tens of hours it would take to whip up something useful and even then, you'd need at least another COMBOARD and modem-eliminator to do as much as demonstrate it (we used to use two COMBOARDs, of any variety, to move files between VAXen - SRC never evolved to using any sort of modern LAN technology like Ethernet - we had point-to-point Bisync links, at cost, between any machines we cared to have). > >Unless I am seriously misinformed, this board was the first single-board > >DMA device for the Unibus. > > The RL11 and RX211 both date from 1978 or so and do DMA from a single Unibus > slot. Seeing how the date on this 68000 board is 1982, does this mean that > a predecessor to this board was being made in 1978 or earlier? Well... The PCB you have is Rev 3. The Rev 1 boards are dated 1979, and the initial prototype originally had a .6" wide socket for the XC68000 processor because it was designed from the preliminary spec sheets from Motorola. It was quite a surprise to the COMBOARD-I designers when they learned that the chip was 1" wide! What may have happened is that the COMBOARD-I was designed before the RL11 or RX211 were available to the public, creating the external appearance that they were first. I am pretty certain that SRC had dual-height grant cards before DEC did because we had our own part number for them. The older, tiny DEC cards were GC727 cards and we called ours the "GC747" card because it was bigger (like Boeing airplanes). I've described the GC747 on the list before - the PCB itself had a built-in curved T-handle at the top and was stencilled in red with a face of a dinosaur and was called the "Grantasaurus Rex". It even made an appearance in a photo in "The DEC Professional", but there's no way I could cite issue and page numbers. As soon as I get my flatbed scanner back from loan, I'll slap it and the COMBOARD line on it and make some scans for the Field Guide. I at least have time to do that. I did find the "COMBOARD PROGRAMMER'S AND MAINTENANCE MANUAL" and the "COMBOARD HARDWARE SELF-INSTALLATION SUPPLIMENT" guides (35 double-sided pages, combined). I'd pass them along for the cost of duplicating/shipping. I could scan them, too, if anyone _really_ wanted to put third-party docs up on a web page. Trivia note: COMBOARDs met VAXen when a customer of DEC who was also a customer of Software Results Corp declined to buy a VAX unless it could talk to the IBM mainframe as well as the PDP-11 he already had. Because DEC wanted to migrate their customer base, one of the founders of Software Results went to Maynard to port the software. I'm told that he used VAX-11/780 S/N 6 for his efforts, a DEC in-house sales demo machine. Our hero was apparently puzzled that the sales staff was upset that he kept crashing the machine during driver development *while they were attempting customer demos* On most of our boards, there was our 800 number for service - 1-800-SRC-DATA. Up until a couple of years ago, it rang to my home office number. I finally disconnected it when I had no more paying customers and was tired of getting billed for other people calling the wrong number. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Feb 18 00:45:16 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: Steve Robertson's message of "Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:38:09 -0500" References: <01BF7933.160BFA80.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <200002180645.WAA33607@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Steve Robertson wrote: > Since it's not too far away, I was thinking about grabbing the > system. So, can I use my 3000/42 FOS tapes to reinstall the OS on > the 37? Stan Sieler got me to re-read one of my manuals. I'm still not sure what it looks like on the tape, but it looks like a bootable tape can contain multiple WCS loads for different models of CPU and still support the models that have microcode in ROM. So this can work, if the /37 microcode is in its place on the FOS tape, and I think that's pretty likely for a (probably mass-produced) FOS tape. -Frank McConnell From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Feb 18 01:53:04 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Software Results Corp Unibus 68000 board? In-Reply-To: <20000218061610.18808.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com>; from ethan_dicks@yahoo.com on Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 10:16:10PM -0800 References: <20000218061610.18808.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000218025304.A25261@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 10:16:10PM -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Also, the C compiler used by the COMBOARD-I > products is *not* VAX-C, it's Whitesmith's C and AFAIK I don't have the power > to grant those licenses (SRC did, but the corporation dissolved years ago). FWIW, I was chasing down Whitesmith's PDP-11 compiler a while back and found that the rights seemed to be owned by TASKING, and they're willing to write licenses for the old compilers if you pay them (IIRC the price I was quoted was $500). Media/docs are your problem but at least there's a legal way to do it. Evidently they bought up the rights to the microcontroller cross-compilers and own the old stuff as a side-effect. John Wilson D Bit From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Feb 18 06:05:50 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000217222710.00b672d0@206.231.8.2> References: <3.0.1.16.20000217181446.504fb2be@mailhost.intellistar.net> <57.1bc412e.25d3e5b9@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000218070550.32f7a5f4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Chris, At 10:29 PM 2/17/00 -0500, you wrote: >Upon the date 06:14 PM 2/17/00 -0500, Joe said something like: >>Hi, >> >> I just picked up one of these with the Z-80, Z-80AA, 8080, 8085, 6800, >>6809, 8051 and 8048 pods. Has anyone else got one other than Al and Jeff? >>What do you think of them? Has anyone ever tried to repair the tape drive >>capstans on them? Has anyone ever tried to built the probe for one? BTW >>these date from around 1981 and are powered by Z-80s so they're on-topic. > >I've got several around here along with Z80, 8088, 6809E and 68000 pods. > >No experience with the tape drives yet. Does this hit that they could be a >pest? :-0 Yeap, the rollers in them seem to "melt" with age just like the ones in the HP 67s, 85s etc. Joe > >Regards, Chris >-- -- >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ > From bill at chipware.com Fri Feb 18 09:16:00 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301bf7a23$0fffa740$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > > >Looking through the first few feet of "real data"... > > > > > >No high bits, the first few bytes are: > > >00111011 x3b ';' (was hoping for the start of an assembly comment) > > >00110010 x32 '2' (nope, looks like some sort of hex...) > > >00110000 x30 '0' > > >01000001 x41 'A' > > >00110000 x30 '0' > > >00110000 x30 '0' > > >00110000 x30 '0' > > >00110011 x33 '3' > > >00111001 x39 '9' > > >01000001 x41 'A' > > This looks to me like MOS Technologies checksum hex format, > as used on the KIM-1. > > > That makes some sense, "20" is the 6502 opcode for a JSR (jump to > > subroutine). The next two bytes are presumably the subroutine's > > address, and "39" is the 6502 opcode for an AND abolute,Y instruction. > > Not if it's MOS Tech. hex! The first two digits are the > length of the block (in hex), then four digits of address, > then the hex for the data block. There'll be a checksum on > the end. In this case, we've got a 32-byte block (20 hex) > starting at address A000. This sounds right. There is "8k basic @ a000" written on a scrap of paper that was with these tapes. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Feb 18 09:56:44 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges Message-ID: <002a01bf7a28$c10e8ce0$4027d1d8@default> PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, February 17, 2000 2:28 PM Subject: Re: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges >At 11:16 AM 2/17/00 -0500, John B wrote: >>I am looking to buy one again now. I would like to back up all this dec >>software on them. I know the data won't be lost if it goes on one of those >>drives. I feel bad now because I chucked it in the garbage a couple of years >>ago.... It had a carrying case and 12 platters :-( > >I'll trade you a couple of MO drives for a PDP 11/20 with 8K of core :-) >--Chuck > Cute Chuck! I got quite a bit of interest for a "straight-11".. more than I thought. I know you indicated interest in one. When I know how many I will have total (first week in March) then I will set aside a couple for list members.. No idea what to trade or how much yet. But............................. If you had said DECTape drives then I probably would have taken you up on it. I can *now* truly appreciate why many dec engineers, field service, and prior dec employees all call them junk. Many have been guilty of using Luttig's name in vane... now, me too! I wonder if TU56s float? john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Feb 18 12:01:31 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges In-Reply-To: <002a01bf7a28$c10e8ce0$4027d1d8@default>; from dylanb@sympatico.ca on Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 10:56:44AM -0500 References: <002a01bf7a28$c10e8ce0$4027d1d8@default> Message-ID: <20000218130131.A26726@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 10:56:44AM -0500, John B wrote: > If you had said DECTape drives then I probably would have taken you up on > it. I can *now* truly appreciate why many dec engineers, field service, and > prior dec employees all call them junk. Many have been guilty of using > Luttig's name in vane... now, me too! > > I wonder if TU56s float? What do you mean? Just because they break down a lot and have an ECO list a mile long? Doesn't matter! They're one of the coolest peripherals around anyway! It's amazing the lengths DEC went to, to have a cheap removable medium that only *slightly* pre-dated floppy disks. But then again they had no choice... My only complaint is that the TC11 backplane has a full-height bracket on only one side, if you take it out of the rack then the two halves of the other side of the backplane is being held together by the wire wrap wire alone. Solution -- don't ever take it out of the rack! And only DEC would make a pretty lights 'n switches control panel and then hide it behind a black block-out panel. Anyway I promise you TU56s don't float, not by a long shot! John Wilson D Bit From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Feb 18 17:07:08 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge Message-ID: Hello, all you dumpster divers . . . . I am on the lookout for: a --->> 44pin IDE <<--- cable about an inch or less long to attach a 2.5" harddrive into an Amiga 1200. I've had people try to sell me adapters to the standard 40 pin. The pitch is slightly less than .100 -- think it's about .080. Female to female connectors. Also looking for a good sorce or supply of Syquest 5 1/4" catridges in either 88 Mb or 200 Mb capacities. I have one of all of these drives -- 44/88/200 and the new prices are worse than the price of gasoline these days. I have a used 44 meg Syquest drive with two carts that I'd part with QUITE CHEAPLY. Also to remind all you Amigalphiles out there -- the Gateway Amiga show is in St. Louis again on April 1-2 at the Henry VIII Hotel on Lindbergh Boulevard near the airport. Gary Hildebrand loyal Amigaphile and boatanchor collector From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Feb 18 12:29:05 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: <200002180645.WAA33607@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: Well, I'm probably the least-knowledgable on the subject, but... I've got my release 3P FOS tape here with the install guide, and it indicates all of the different configuration options for the 37, XE, Micro's, 39, 40, 42, 44, 48, 58, 64, 68, and 70. So I'm assuming it'd be fine...which version of MPE V do you have? If you need the 3P FOS...(and I've got the full subsys tapes too)... Cheers, Aaron On 17 Feb 2000, Frank McConnell wrote: > Steve Robertson wrote: > > Since it's not too far away, I was thinking about grabbing the > > system. So, can I use my 3000/42 FOS tapes to reinstall the OS on > > the 37? > > Stan Sieler got me to re-read one of my manuals. I'm still not sure > what it looks like on the tape, but it looks like a bootable tape can > contain multiple WCS loads for different models of CPU and still > support the models that have microcode in ROM. So this can work, > if the /37 microcode is in its place on the FOS tape, and I think > that's pretty likely for a (probably mass-produced) FOS tape. > > -Frank McConnell > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 18 13:15:05 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hello, all you dumpster divers . . . . > >I am on the lookout for: > >a --->> 44pin IDE <<--- cable about an inch or less long to attach a 2.5" >harddrive into an Amiga 1200. I've had people try to sell me adapters to >the standard 40 pin. The pitch is slightly less than .100 -- think it's >about .080. Female to female connectors. http://www.softhut.com/product.html Which reminds me, I really need to find one or two now that I've got some 2.5" drives.... Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 18 12:37:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000217230736.321fc066@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 17, 0 11:07:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1558 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000218/2e5a9474/attachment.ksh From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Feb 18 12:05:32 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: TC11, TU56, was :(Re: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges Message-ID: <004601bf7a3a$bf693c20$4027d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: John Wilson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 18, 2000 1:01 PM Subject: Re: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges >On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 10:56:44AM -0500, John B wrote: >> If you had said DECTape drives then I probably would have taken you up on >> it. I can *now* truly appreciate why many dec engineers, field service, and >> prior dec employees all call them junk. Many have been guilty of using >> Luttig's name in vane... now, me too! >> >> I wonder if TU56s float? > >What do you mean? Just because they break down a lot and have an ECO list a >mile long? Doesn't matter! Doesn't matter? People generally rate an old piece of equipment by the way it performed.. Most tape drives in the late 1960's were *not* that bad. > They're one of the coolest peripherals around >anyway! It's amazing the lengths DEC went to, to have a cheap removable >medium that only *slightly* pre-dated floppy disks. They made DECTape type drives since '62.. (555), TU55, then (after one would *think* they would get it right)... the TU56. > But then again they had >no choice... My only complaint is that the TC11 backplane has a full-height >bracket on only one side, if you take it out of the rack then the two halves >of the other side of the backplane is being held together by the wire wrap >wire alone. Solution -- don't ever take it out of the rack! That was not a blunder - it was a feature. DEC *knew* the drives were horrible so it only seemed fair to implement an upgrade strategy for the customer. One too many breakdowns... customer pulls the left side of the TC11 down and... presto! customer now has a valid reason to replace the entire tape system. I am working on a TC11 this very minute :-( I have a few to restore > And only DEC >would make a pretty lights 'n switches control panel and then hide it behind >a black block-out panel. DEC did a good job creating flashing light panels ... but, how many times did DEC want to light up a customers computer room with ENDZ, PAR, and other fault lights? This is the *only* lightbulb status panel they ever hid, wasn't it? > >Anyway I promise you TU56s don't float, not by a long shot! I know many DEC customers tried. Some also tried extreme heat or pressure... or both! ;-) I really feel sorry for the field service guy now... to take abuse from a customer looking over his shoulder while trying to repair *another* bad DECTape drive... BTW: Do you have a TC11 _working_ ? john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com > >John Wilson >D Bit > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 18 12:45:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: Software Results Corp Unibus 68000 board? In-Reply-To: <20000218061610.18808.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 17, 0 10:16:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1362 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000218/38ec7e01/attachment.ksh From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Feb 18 14:04:40 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: from Gary Hildebrand at "Feb 18, 2000 06:07:08 pm" Message-ID: <200002182004.OAA05228@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > Also looking for a good source or supply of Syquest 5 1/4" catridges in > either 88 Mb or 200 Mb capacities. I have one of all of these drives -- > 44/88/200 and the new prices are worse than the price of gasoline these > days. I have a used 44 meg Syquest drive with two carts that I'd part with > QUITE CHEAPLY. > I see that www.onsale.com has packs of 3 new 200Mb for $19.95 plus $9.50 shipping in the USA. No, you dont get a discount on the shipping if you buy multiple units. This still seems like a lot to me, but its better than the list price of $119.95 ... 49 sets are still available. This URL is good until monday: http://www.egghead.com/category/inv/00049179/02522148.htm -Lawrence LeMay From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Fri Feb 18 14:06:59 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bf7a4b$b7663d50$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> FYI to the list, I got one of these: IDE laptop to regular IDE adapter. p/n FLT-3120 @ $19.95 each. at http://www.cablemakers.com 1-888-921-2243 a while back. No complaints to report. The website photo shows a slight change to the one I have. Hate to have to hand wire/solder one of these. John A. From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 17 15:08:55 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:04 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge References: <000001bf7a4b$b7663d50$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <38AC6367.BC81635D@rain.org> John Allain wrote: > > FYI to the list, > > I got one of these: > > IDE laptop to regular IDE adapter. > p/n FLT-3120 @ $19.95 each. > at http://www.cablemakers.com 1-888-921-2243 I've seen just the cable adapters w/ power supply connection for about $3.00 or so at Rogers Specialists. $19.95 for what they are offering seems more than a little bit high. From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Feb 18 19:00:51 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Hello, all you dumpster divers . . . . > > I am on the lookout for: > > a --->> 44pin IDE <<--- cable about an inch or less long to attach a 2.5" > harddrive into an Amiga 1200. I've had people try to sell me adapters to > the standard 40 pin. The pitch is slightly less than .100 -- think it's > about .080. Female to female connectors. > It's probably 2mm (.0787 in). The connectors and cable are available from digikey (US and Canada). (www.digikey.com, catalog pg 37) Digikey P/N Description AMP P/N Price (US) ASA44K-ND 44 pin, 2mm, IDC connector 1-111626-0 $3.54 AM446-X-ND 44 conductor, 2mm cable, 5ft 1-57051-2 $3.19 IDC cables are pretty easy to crimp with a panavise, or bench vise and nylon jaws. Just take your time, and buy extra parts :) Clint From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Fri Feb 18 20:11:41 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Test/Machines available Message-ID: <049b01bf7a7f$1ecdc3e0$94ea93c3@proteus> This message is something of a test message since it appears my last few messages haven't made it through to the list. :-( Anyway, I've a few machines I want rid of: Apple II Europlus Apple //e Psion Organiser II, CM Available free or in exchange for any interesting DEC/HP or IBM PS/2 bits (I *NEED* case parts etc for a 9595 I'm trying to restore). I'm located in the UK (Birmingham) in case anyone doesn't already know. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Feb 18 20:22:47 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: TC11, TU56, was :(Re: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges In-Reply-To: <004601bf7a3a$bf693c20$4027d1d8@default>; from dylanb@sympatico.ca on Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 01:05:32PM -0500 References: <004601bf7a3a$bf693c20$4027d1d8@default> Message-ID: <20000218212247.A27770@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 01:05:32PM -0500, John B wrote: > DEC did a good job creating flashing light panels ... but, how many times > did DEC want to light up a customers computer room with ENDZ, PAR, and other > fault lights? Well, just how many "all is well!" lamps do you need on one panel? :-) The "bad news" lights are what make these panels so useful... > BTW: Do you have a TC11 _working_ ? Well, I have one that _works_, but yeah my other one is dead (haven't gotten around to debugging it) and even the good one isn't hooked up right now, I needed the space for something else. I really should set it up though, I've promised several people that I would eventually read tapes for them and it's been way too long. FWIW I ran a TC08/TU56 for a few years and apart from periodically reseating the boards in the TC08 (which in my case seemed to be held in only by buoyancy in the earth's atmosphere, I don't know if I was missing the hold-down bracket or if there honestly isn't one in the TC08), it gave me no trouble at all. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Feb 18 20:25:02 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: ; from vaxman@uswest.net on Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 06:00:51PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20000218212502.B27770@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 06:00:51PM -0700, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > IDC cables are pretty easy to crimp with a panavise, or bench vise and > nylon jaws. Or a "duckbill" vice grip, available at welding supply shops and some auto parts shops. Works nicely, and not too strong... A vice is OK but you have to be really careful to listen for the clicks, the first one is the connector seating, the second one is the connector shattering! John Wilson D Bit From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 18 21:49:01 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge Message-ID: <001501bf7a8c$448f10e0$0400c0a8@winbook> There's a tool made specifically for attaching ICD connectors that costs only $15-16. That's quite a bit less than what the fixe-grips cost. They're a parallel-jawed arrangement made of cleverly formed black sheet metal with a yellow plastic seat that fits in the jaws, hinged at the end, like a nutcracker, and which works MUCH better, faster, and more easily than a vise, plier, even a parallel-jawed pair, as they're usually too small. That seat is almost perfect, but it has a relief for the index tab in the middle of the odd-numbered side of most IDC connectors, but it won't take the ones with two such tabs. I've never seen one of these blister-packed wonders cost more than $19.95, and bought mine for $15 or so. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Wilson To: classiccmp Date: Friday, February 18, 2000 7:28 PM Subject: Re: scroungers -- a new chalenge >On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 06:00:51PM -0700, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: >> IDC cables are pretty easy to crimp with a panavise, or bench vise and >> nylon jaws. > >Or a "duckbill" vice grip, available at welding supply shops and some auto >parts shops. Works nicely, and not too strong... A vice is OK but you >have to be really careful to listen for the clicks, the first one is the >connector seating, the second one is the connector shattering! > >John Wilson >D Bit From rcini at msn.com Fri Feb 18 22:02:22 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: YASBC Update Message-ID: <000d01bf7a8e$888622a0$6464a8c0@office1> Hello, all: I've posted the schematics and the beginnings of a kernel tonight. The c ode is not to a point where I can simulate it yet, but I have the reset, NMI , and IRQ routines done, as well as necessary modifications to Chris Ward's ACIA and Dallas RTC code. Please look at the schematics. There are 9 PDF files containing the 8 sc hematics and a component mask. I appologize in advance for using PDFs for sc hematics, but I've found that it's easier to print from EDWin to the PDF Wri ter driver and then to the printer than directly to the printer itself. See if there is anything glaring that I've missed. At this point, the My 6502 feature set is "frozen", but I'm open to circuit optimization ideas. I' ve gotten the board down to 6.5" x 7.5". When you look at it, you'll see tha t it's stuffed. Enjoy it and let me know what you think. Rich [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Feb 18 23:33:31 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: <001501bf7a8c$448f10e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000219003331.448f600a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Dick, Where do you buy such a wonder? I worked on some of the first 8085 computers in the mid 70s and we bought a press that was made for putting on ICD connectors and I remember that it cost about $450! Personally, I use a vice and have no trouble with it. Joe At 08:49 PM 2/18/00 -0700, you wrote: >There's a tool made specifically for attaching ICD connectors that costs >only $15-16. That's quite a bit less than what the fixe-grips cost. >They're a parallel-jawed arrangement made of cleverly formed black sheet >metal with a yellow plastic seat that fits in the jaws, hinged at the end, >like a nutcracker, and which works MUCH better, faster, and more easily than >a vise, plier, even a parallel-jawed pair, as they're usually too small. >That seat is almost perfect, but it has a relief for the index tab in the >middle of the odd-numbered side of most IDC connectors, but it won't take >the ones with two such tabs. I've never seen one of these blister-packed >wonders cost more than $19.95, and bought mine for $15 or so. > >Dick >-----Original Message----- >From: John Wilson >To: classiccmp >Date: Friday, February 18, 2000 7:28 PM >Subject: Re: scroungers -- a new chalenge > > >>On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 06:00:51PM -0700, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) >wrote: >>> IDC cables are pretty easy to crimp with a panavise, or bench vise and >>> nylon jaws. >> >>Or a "duckbill" vice grip, available at welding supply shops and some auto >>parts shops. Works nicely, and not too strong... A vice is OK but you >>have to be really careful to listen for the clicks, the first one is the >>connector seating, the second one is the connector shattering! >> >>John Wilson >>D Bit > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Feb 18 23:04:44 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Test/Machines available In-Reply-To: <049b01bf7a7f$1ecdc3e0$94ea93c3@proteus> Message-ID: >Available free or in exchange for any interesting DEC/HP or IBM PS/2 bits (I >*NEED* case parts etc for a 9595 I'm trying to restore). > >I'm located in the UK (Birmingham) in case anyone doesn't already know. If you come to Disneyland, stop by I am just a few miles away and have a bunch of 9595s. Need anything bad enough to have it shipped? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Feb 19 02:28:10 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Pomona CA hamfest, Sat (now) ASR33 Message-ID: Last month at the Cal Poly Pomona hamfest I noticed one of the hams had a sign on the back of his car "Teletype 33 forsale", never found him at his spot though for any details, and the spot watcher didn't know anything. 3rd Saturday of the month, TODAY, is the hamfest at Cal Poly Pomona in soCal. I will be on a short leash, arriving a little after 7, and scheduled to be shot if I am not gone shortly after 9 am. Look for a big nerd with a bucket, stupid hat is optional (mine, not yours). From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Feb 19 02:20:43 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: YASBC Update In-Reply-To: <000d01bf7a8e$888622a0$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: > See if there is anything glaring that I've missed. At this point, the My >6502 feature set is "frozen", but I'm open to circuit optimization ideas. I' Since its frozen I will just mention over in the A2 newsgroup there have been a discussion of a VHDL 6502 running on some common gate array type chip. Behaves mostly just like the real thing. Here is a snip with info I wrote a 65c02 VHDL model that I programmed into an Altera 10k30 FPGA. I have booted Apple DOS and played Frogger. Write to me or visit my web page for details Scott L. Baker scd@teleport.com Sierra Circuit Design www.teleport.com/~scd From edick at idcomm.com Sat Feb 19 08:59:23 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge Message-ID: <000e01bf7ae9$eae666c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, I've bought a few of the "real" tools on behalf of one client or another. They're expensive, but it seems that their expense comes mainly from making it difficult to use them with other manufacturers' connectors. My version came from Gateway Electronics, but I've seen them for sale in the same blister-pack elsewhere. I'll phone up the guys at Gateway (St.Louis, Denver, Houston, SanDiego, not all of which are open any longer and none of which are associated with Gateway Computers) since it's Saturday. IF all else fails, I suppose you could call them in Denver at (303) 458-5444. Ask for Mike, and he'll know which crimping tool you want. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 18, 2000 9:38 PM Subject: Re: scroungers -- a new chalenge >Dick, > > Where do you buy such a wonder? I worked on some of the first 8085 >computers in the mid 70s and we bought a press that was made for putting on >ICD connectors and I remember that it cost about $450! Personally, I use a >vice and have no trouble with it. > > Joe > >At 08:49 PM 2/18/00 -0700, you wrote: >>There's a tool made specifically for attaching ICD connectors that costs >>only $15-16. That's quite a bit less than what the fixe-grips cost. >>They're a parallel-jawed arrangement made of cleverly formed black sheet >>metal with a yellow plastic seat that fits in the jaws, hinged at the end, >>like a nutcracker, and which works MUCH better, faster, and more easily than >>a vise, plier, even a parallel-jawed pair, as they're usually too small. >>That seat is almost perfect, but it has a relief for the index tab in the >>middle of the odd-numbered side of most IDC connectors, but it won't take >>the ones with two such tabs. I've never seen one of these blister-packed >>wonders cost more than $19.95, and bought mine for $15 or so. >> >>Dick >>-----Original Message----- >>From: John Wilson >>To: classiccmp >>Date: Friday, February 18, 2000 7:28 PM >>Subject: Re: scroungers -- a new chalenge >> >> >>>On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 06:00:51PM -0700, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) >>wrote: >>>> IDC cables are pretty easy to crimp with a panavise, or bench vise and >>>> nylon jaws. >>> >>>Or a "duckbill" vice grip, available at welding supply shops and some auto >>>parts shops. Works nicely, and not too strong... A vice is OK but you >>>have to be really careful to listen for the clicks, the first one is the >>>connector seating, the second one is the connector shattering! >>> >>>John Wilson >>>D Bit >> >> > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 19 10:17:31 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Manual Available: Penril Corporation 300/1200 Data Modem Message-ID: Same deal, contact the person offering this, not me. I think I translated the dimensions correctly, blasted MS! Another example of where Eudora couldn't read the garbage MS OE spewed. He included a scan of the cover that I can forward to anyone that wants it, it's got a little more info, I'm on a fast line, so forwarding it isn't a problem for me. Zane From: "J. Darren Peterson" I'd like to find a home for this book instead of trashing it. I'll send it to anyone for the cost of shipping. Penril Corporation 300/1200 Data Modem Operations Manual, December 1982 The manual is 8.5-inches x 11-inches in size, .5-inch thick, soft cover, in very good condition, and has five sections and two appendices. The sections are (1) Introduction, (2) Installation, (3) Operating Instructions, (4) Maintenance, and (5) Fault Isolation and Diagnostic Tests. The appendices are (1) Selectable Options Descriptions and (2) Functional Notes. | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Technoid at cheta.net Sat Feb 19 11:56:36 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002191750.MAA11153@lexington.ioa.net> I have used a vice to crimp connectors but for card-edge connectors I just stand of the connector with just the heel of my boot and rock slightly. It is hard to do that way with the header-type connectors without breaking the locks off. You can use superglue if you do.... Caution with a vise. I bent the handle on a friend's one time trying to crimp a scsi header onto some rainbow-colored cable I have. This cable has a little bit more insulation than is normal and it was hard to get throug. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From Technoid at cheta.net Sat Feb 19 11:59:37 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Data General Eclipse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002191754.MAA11714@lexington.ioa.net> Well, I have gotten my DG MV4000DC up and running. It has 8mb ram, a 120mb and an 71mb hard disks, 5b terminals, 12 telnet soft terminals, tcp/ip (not fully configured yet). I have OS tapes, tcpip tape, diagnostic tapes and utilities. I could use a copy of PCOPY.PR to restore an LDU from the former config. I have gotten reasonable facile with the machine and operating system. If anyone comes across an DG machine I can provide system software and tech aid in getting it up and running. This applies to the Data General MV/xxxxx series machines. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Feb 19 12:47:14 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge References: <200002191750.MAA11153@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <38AEE532.53E32EED@bigfoot.com> I make cables with ribbon and header types all the time with a vise - I have a clamp on vise that has stiff poly covers on the jaws and lightly clamp the connector/cable in place and then slowly close the vise down. It's very easy and effective. The crimp tools made for header conection (IDC/IDS) are essentially a hand worked vise. Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > I have used a vice to crimp connectors but for card-edge connectors I just > stand of the connector with just the heel of my boot and rock slightly. > It is hard to do that way with the header-type connectors without breaking > the locks off. You can use superglue if you do.... Caution with a vise. > I bent the handle on a friend's one time trying to crimp a scsi header > onto some rainbow-colored cable I have. This cable has a little bit more > insulation than is normal and it was hard to get throug. -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Technical Services > Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. > 1979B Hendersonville Road > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days > 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 19 13:04:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: <20000218212502.B27770@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Feb 18, 0 09:25:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2821 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000219/2e9643df/attachment.ksh From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Feb 19 13:47:09 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: <000e01bf7ae9$eae666c0$0400c0a8@winbook> from Richard Erlacher at "Feb 19, 2000 07:59:23 am" Message-ID: <200002191947.NAA08003@caesar.cs.umn.edu> The Jameco catalog has an IDC crimping tool listed for $11.95 each. http://www.jameco.com/cfm/viewdesc.cfm?part_num=73251 They also sell a IDC bench press for $164.95 -Lawrence LeMay > > >Dick, > > > > Where do you buy such a wonder? I worked on some of the first 8085 > >computers in the mid 70s and we bought a press that was made for putting on > >ICD connectors and I remember that it cost about $450! Personally, I use a > >vice and have no trouble with it. > > > > Joe > > > >At 08:49 PM 2/18/00 -0700, you wrote: > >>There's a tool made specifically for attaching ICD connectors that costs > >>only $15-16. That's quite a bit less than what the fixe-grips cost. > >>They're a parallel-jawed arrangement made of cleverly formed black sheet > >>metal with a yellow plastic seat that fits in the jaws, hinged at the end, > >>like a nutcracker, and which works MUCH better, faster, and more easily > than > >>a vise, plier, even a parallel-jawed pair, as they're usually too small. > >>That seat is almost perfect, but it has a relief for the index tab in the > >>middle of the odd-numbered side of most IDC connectors, but it won't take > >>the ones with two such tabs. I've never seen one of these blister-packed > >>wonders cost more than $19.95, and bought mine for $15 or so. > >> > >>Dick From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 19 17:18:17 2000 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Qume QVT103 terminal Message-ID: Does anyone know what the above is? I have been offered 2 Suns and a DECSystem 5000 by someone who is looking for one or anything else which will connect to a Stride 460 running UCSD p-system. Obvoiusly I would like to help him if possible. Does anyone know of any software which will emulate the above? He contacted me through the Computer Rescue web page so it works ;-) -- Regards Pete From rmeenaks at olf.com Sat Feb 19 17:44:08 2000 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Past Bytes issues Message-ID: <000001bf7b33$3777a640$0a02f2c7@neptune> Hi, I looking for the following Byte issues. I dont need the whole magazine, just scans of the following articles. TIFF files would be the best as I can run an OCR to convert it to text. Also clear scans of the figures, etc is needed as well. 1. Pountain, Dick. Microprocessor design: the transputer and its special language, Occam. BYTE, August 1984, page 361. 2. Walker, Paul. The transputer: a building block for parallel processing. BYTE, May 1985, page 219. 3. Wilson, Pete. Floating-point survival kit. BYTE, Volume 13, Number 3, March 1988, page 217. Thanks. Ram From dburrows at netpath.net Sat Feb 19 17:54:26 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Qume QVT103 terminal Message-ID: <045d01bf7b34$ae0ac340$a652e780@L166> It is a terminal. There are a few listed in the DDA. Contact me off list and I will give you the dealers that have them and their asking prices. That is if all else fails for a list member having one for real cheap. Dealer asking prices are in the $50 to $100 area. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Peter Joules To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, February 19, 2000 6:45 PM Subject: Qume QVT103 terminal >Does anyone know what the above is? I have been offered 2 Suns and a >DECSystem 5000 by someone who is looking for one or anything else which >will connect to a Stride 460 running UCSD p-system. Obvoiusly I would >like to help him if possible. Does anyone know of any software which >will emulate the above? > >He contacted me through the Computer Rescue web page so it works ;-) >-- >Regards >Pete From mark_k at iname.com Sat Feb 19 17:49:49 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:09:39 Joe wrote: > >>Jerome, > >> > >> What are you going to use the MO drive on? Just curious. I have a > >>SMO-501 also. It's SLOW!! The transfer rate and access time are WORSE > >>than a floppy drive. > > > >They weren't that slow. > > Mine is. The access time is something close to 100ms. The transfer rate > is about 2/3 that of a floppy drive. There is probably something wrong with your drive or disks. Try cleaning the surface of your disks, and if that doesn't help you might want to clean the drive lens. For this you can either obtain the appropriate lens cleaning cartridge (I can find the part number for this if necessary), or disassemble the drive to expose the lens and clean it manually. Using a cleaning cartridge is be less risky. If your disks are old, low-level format them after cleaning. >From memory, the (read) data transfer rate of my SMO-S501-11 drive with 600MB media is about 600K/sec; similar to a quad-speed CD-ROM. To put the access time into perspective, it is similar to that of a modern DVD-RAM drive. -- Mark From mark_k at iname.com Sat Feb 19 17:49:04 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: IBM 3363 optical drive Technical Reference Manual wanted Message-ID: Hi, As the subject says, I would like to get hold of a Technical Reference Manual for the IBM 3363 WORM drive. Any ideas where I might find one? (And an ISA adapter card for the 3363 too.) Regards, -- Mark From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Feb 19 18:05:00 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Finds during down time Message-ID: <003b01bf7b36$21f02560$19dab0d0@default> 1. Picked up most of the manuals for Windows 1.0 at the thrift for 10 cents each. 2. about 56 more books 3. Gridcase 386 does no power up but cost 10 dollars at Goodwill. 4. IBM 7208-001 tape unit for my RS6000 box 5. Tandy 600 power supply 6. about 20 mouse pads for my collection 7. Data General 66824 terminal working for 3.95 8. 20 cartridges some coleco and atari 2600's 9. working TRS80 model 100 in nice case for 5 dollars at Goodwill. 10. lots of cables I will to test and figure out what they go to. 11. lots of other items but most are not under the 10 year rule. Anyone in Minneapolis area know were I can get a warehouse over 2000 sq feet for real cheap ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000219/59d9eb95/attachment.html From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Feb 19 18:16:20 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge References: Message-ID: <38AF3254.3891AACF@idirect.com> >Tony Duell wrote: > > Or a "duckbill" vice grip, available at welding supply shops and some auto > > parts shops. Works nicely, and not too strong... A vice is OK but you > > have to be really careful to listen for the clicks, the first one is the > > connector seating, the second one is the connector shattering! > Actually, the first 2 clicks are the connector locks seating, the third > one is the connector breaking in half :-) Jerome Fine replies: Either you vice is very strong or you are - I have never been able to apply that much pressure. > I've crimped dozens of IDC connectors, and I nearly always use a 3" > (across the jaws) bench vice. Slip the cable into the connector, put the > connector between the jaws of the vice, and tighten just enough to hold > it. Check the alignment of the cable, then clamp it up and it's done. I often use a high powered magnifying glass just to be sure that all the pins are aligned with the cable before I tighten the vice. A bright light helps as well. Also, my vice is a bare bones model which has just plain metal jaws. But I rarely do more than 34 pin cables for disk drives. Sometimes I do a 50 pin cable in which case I often need to do as much as possible in the centre - then shift the connector first to one side then the other to achieve a tight enough fit and apply enough pressure and finally finish up back in the centre. > I've never used the 'press' type tools that are shown in some catalogues > for small-production use, and which cost a few hundred pounds and up. > Doubtless they work well, and they'd be a lot faster (I guess) than using > the bench vice. But time is not that important to me as a hobbyist, and > I've got more important things to buy first. I usually don't use that excuse - I just say that I am plain frugal or cheap - which ever seems right at the time.-) Or I say that all expenses must be offset by something else that I sell to justify the new purchase. The hard part is taking old connectors off old cables - the 34/20 pin edge connectors are usually easy. Getting the header off the other end is almost always difficult - inexpensive and time consuming, but difficult. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 19 18:55:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: <38AF3254.3891AACF@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Feb 19, 0 07:16:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2084 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000220/f9710f15/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 19 20:47:10 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: MSCP Patent Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000219184545.00bde880@mcmanis.com> FWIW, the patent on MSCP, the DEC Mass Storage Control Protocol is #4,449,182. I found it and looked it up at www.uspto.gov. It was issued in May 1984 so should expire in May 2004 (given the revieed 20 yr rule) --Chuck From nerdware at laidbak.com Sat Feb 19 20:32:48 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Apple IIgs stuff for FREE!!! Message-ID: <200002200238.UAA09851@garcon.laidbak.com> Well, you need to pay for boxing and shipping, but other than that.... Here's what I have. I already have two full IIgs systems and my wife is getting a mite touchy about the decreasing free space in the basement.....I'd rather these go to a good, warm, loving home than put 'em on ebay. 4 cpu's All boot through the roms, at least. 4 AppleColor RGB monitors All work 1 Apple HiRes monochrome display (13") 2 5-1/4" floppy drives 2 Imagewriter II's Assume they work, haven't tested 'em. Fairly clean. I'm in the NW Indiana/Chicago area if you want to swing by and pick 'em up and save some shipping. If you want part, fine. If you want the entire pile, better. Just let me know ASAP. I need the space..... Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 19 21:35:14 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Qume QVT103 terminal In-Reply-To: <045d01bf7b34$ae0ac340$a652e780@L166> Message-ID: Is it a straight terminal, or is it a VT100 with a LSI-11 based computer (PDP-11) built into it? The name makes me think it's a rebadged DEC VT103. Zane >It is a terminal. There are a few listed in the DDA. Contact me off list >and I will give you the dealers that have them and their asking prices. >That is if all else fails for a list member having one for real cheap. >Dealer asking prices are in the $50 to $100 area. > >Dan >-----Original Message----- >From: Peter Joules >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Date: Saturday, February 19, 2000 6:45 PM >Subject: Qume QVT103 terminal > > >>Does anyone know what the above is? I have been offered 2 Suns and a >>DECSystem 5000 by someone who is looking for one or anything else which >>will connect to a Stride 460 running UCSD p-system. Obvoiusly I would >>like to help him if possible. Does anyone know of any software which >>will emulate the above? >> >>He contacted me through the Computer Rescue web page so it works ;-) >>-- >>Regards >>Pete | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Feb 19 22:46:48 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: MSCP Patent In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000219184545.00bde880@mcmanis.com>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Sat, Feb 19, 2000 at 06:47:10PM -0800 References: <4.2.0.58.20000219184545.00bde880@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20000219234648.A31091@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Feb 19, 2000 at 06:47:10PM -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: > FWIW, the patent on MSCP, the DEC Mass Storage Control Protocol is > #4,449,182. I found it and looked it up at www.uspto.gov. It was issued in > May 1984 so should expire in May 2004 (given the revieed 20 yr rule) *20* years?!?! When did *that* happen? It used to be 17 so I've been counting the days until May 2001. And I've been wondering if it really even lasts *that* long because 4,449,182 is the re-examined patent, they had actually patented it earlier (applied for in 1981 I think?) but it got shot down, it certainly seems unfair for someone to be able to extend the length of their patent coverage for four more years because *they* screwed up. But of course the more unfair it is, the more likely it is to be the law... I don't know how they got this patent through in the first place, there's nothing particularly non-obvious (how *else* would you manage message rings? even DigiBoards are a bit similar to MSCP and they're just serial ports) or unique about it and the only thing that makes it "useful" is that they were able to get a patent on it and lock out the usual aftermarket vendors! Really, if you read the patent, all it is is a very detailed description of a particular implementation of plain ol' message queues (plus they tacked on a listing of an early VMS DU: driver, for no reason that I can see other than to try to make it seem more complicated), if you describe *anything* in enough detail you'll be able to come up with some frivolous differences between it and other similar schemes but that doesn't make it patentable. N.B. there was some problem with recording the paperwork for the re-examined patent, the text on womplex is the old version. Well E11 doesn't infringe anyway (luckily the patent is detailed enough that it only talks about host and I/O processors that are "substantially independent" and communicate over a bus), but I was hoping to do some MSCP hardware one of these days, which *would* infringe if the patent were still in force. But the whole point of patents is that in exchange for a fixed monopoly period, you give your invention to the world for free after that period ends, so MSCP will be free for everyone sooner or later. Same with that damn LZW patent, it's getting pretty close too! John Wilson D Bit From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Feb 19 23:01:21 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Qume QVT103 terminal In-Reply-To: References: <045d01bf7b34$ae0ac340$a652e780@L166> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000219210121.009d2b60@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:35 PM 2/19/00 -0800, you wrote: >Is it a straight terminal, or is it a VT100 with a LSI-11 based computer >(PDP-11) built into it? The name makes me think it's a rebadged DEC VT103. No, it is just a Qume clone of a VT-100 series terminal. No backplane or other interesting expantion capabilities. Not a rebadged DEC unit... Think I've got a couple rattling around the warehouse. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Feb 20 01:04:37 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From memory, the (read) data transfer rate of my SMO-S501-11 drive with 600MB >media is about 600K/sec; similar to a quad-speed CD-ROM. Just FYI a drive and 3 disks is ending its auction in 18 hours on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=258125312 Last price was about $40 From marvin at rain.org Sat Feb 19 01:37:24 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Walkirt Binary Counter References: Message-ID: <38AE4834.D280720D@rain.org> I recently found a Walkirt Binary Counter unit, type 1673, and haven't been able to find any data on it other than a completed ebay auction (closed at $35.00.) Anyone know anything about this unit? According to the description on the completed ebay auction, it uses a 12AT7 and has an 11 pin socket. Thanks. From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Feb 20 02:09:40 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: suggestions on looking for warehouse space? Message-ID: <9a.153c9fc.25e0fb44@aol.com> In a message dated 2/19/2000 4:12:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, jrkeys@concentric.net writes: > > Anyone in Minneapolis area know were I can get a warehouse over 2000 sq. feet > for real cheap ? > >From many years of looking I suggest that you check out basement space in the older industrial district. You want to make sure that it has a freight elevator that works and big enough for full size racks. You also want to make sure that it is dry and has a good floor that a pallet jack will roll around on. Basements are warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer. They are usually the cheapest space around. Sometimes a business real estate rental agent can be a help. Sometimes you can rent partial bays but they may not be secure. Good luck. Paxton From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Feb 20 03:33:32 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: ham radio? References: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E34@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Message-ID: <01e901bf7b87$bfa7a660$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Corda Albert J DLVA To: Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 7:31 AM Subject: RE: ham radio? > Wouff-Hong (sp?) Boy, that's an obscure reference. When I was > in high-school, (back in the 70's) I picked up a couple of big > boxes of QST magazines at a ham auction. Most of 'em were from > the 1940's and 50's, but they were _very_ interesting reading, > especially if you were into tinkering with old world-war II > receivers (like the ARC-5 series...) I ran across a number of > articles that mentioned the Wouff-Hong. From what I can remember, > it was a wierdly-shaped piece of wood with a couple of rusty bits > of metal hanging from it (probably was a fragment of an old cart > hitch or something along those lines) From what I can remember, > someone at ARRL headquarters found this item lying around somewhere > in a storage area, and hung it on the wall just for grins. Nobody > knew what it actually was, but it became kind of a joke to threaten > to use it on someone as a punishment instrument if they did something > against the ham ethic. I haven't heard a reference to it since > high-school reading foray into the ham-past. (until now, that is IIRC, the founder of the ARRL, one Hiram Percy Maxim, used the term in his "Rotten Radio" series of articles in the 20's(?). Evidently the ham bands in those good(?) old days were something of a mess (bit like 27mhz now I guess) with all kinds of wierd noises, interference etc etc. IIRC, the particular reference was in the context of a msg heard on air, with a suggestion that a particular LID (Bad Operator) be hit with a (burst of noise that came out as Wouff Hong) and the reference became a standard threat to LID's of all kinds, but it was purely an Americanism, and to my knowledge, did not get used by ops in other countries. I first read about in the same source you did, QST. In particular, it was an article that explained the origin of the term. It was an issue from the late 50's or early 60's but couldn't tell you now which one it was..... I think this is right, it was some years ago that I read all this..... The reference to the actual wood&iron article I think was mentioned in this article as well, and sounds (as near as I can remember) like the description there of the origin of the actual device.. Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 20 08:40:17 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Qume QVT103 terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000220094017.2347fbee@mailhost.intellistar.net> pete, I don't know anything about the Qume terminals but I know where there are a few ADM 5A terminals and one old Hazeltine terminal. Located in Melbourne, Florida. Joe At 11:18 PM 2/19/00 +0000, you wrote: >Does anyone know what the above is? I have been offered 2 Suns and a >DECSystem 5000 by someone who is looking for one or anything else which >will connect to a Stride 460 running UCSD p-system. Obvoiusly I would >like to help him if possible. Does anyone know of any software which >will emulate the above? > >He contacted me through the Computer Rescue web page so it works ;-) >-- >Regards >Pete > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 20 08:48:54 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: <38AEE532.53E32EED@bigfoot.com> References: <200002191750.MAA11153@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000220094854.233f9226@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:47 PM 2/19/00 -0600, you wrote: >I make cables with ribbon and header types all the time with a vise - I have >a clamp on vise that has stiff poly covers on the jaws and lightly clamp the >connector/cable in place and then slowly close the vise down. It's very easy >and effective. The crimp tools made for header conection (IDC/IDS) are >essentially a hand worked vise. I do the same thing but I just use the regular jaws. I just take it slow and easy. Even a slight over tightening will crush the connector. Joe From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 20 11:41:06 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard Message-ID: <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com> Here's a new discussion for ya': a top ten list of the best laptop kayboards! I already know who's going to be number 1, but, just the same, here are my picks for the list: Postion Laptop 1. TRS-80 Model 100 2. TRS-80 Model 200 (In the Top 5) Macintosh Portable (In the Top 10) Toshiba T-1000 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 12:30:46 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Finds at the local university salvage Message-ID: <20000220183046.12340.qmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> Last week I finally took an afternoon to peruse the surplus depot at my local university. I had to make two trips because they don't take cash, only checks and money orders. As a result of leaving, I missed out on a VAXstation 3100-42 for $10, but the guy left the two disk boxes behind (total of three RZ-57 drives). They have a wad of Macs of various models in various states. I picked up a Mac IIci for $5 with an Apple video card, 8Mb RAM, 230Mb disk and Asante Ethernet; and a Mac IIcx with only a video card for another $5 (mostly for a spare PSU) I've been looking for a IIci for a while because I was using my brother's old one when it died on me. Now I can return it to him in working condition. If I really felt like it, they had a couple of Quadra 605s for $25, one with memory and disk, one without. Neither had ethernet so I left them behind. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From go at ao.com Sun Feb 20 13:05:30 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000220105614.035f6970@buffy.ao.com> At 05:41 PM 2/20/00 +0000, you wrote: >Here's a new discussion for ya': a top ten list of the best laptop >kayboards! I already know who's going to be number 1, but, just the same, >here are my picks for the list: > >Postion Laptop >1. TRS-80 Model 100 Absolutely! I second the above. Never used a 200, but my 100 still does duty as a cheap, lowpower packet console from time-to-time. It has ALWAYS been my favorite portable kb unit. I tried a couple of cast-off PC clones (an old compac 386-something) and a Toshiba T-1000, but in spite of the computational short-comings of the M100, it still ranks #1 for me for comfort of use. >2. TRS-80 Model 200 >(In the Top 5) Macintosh Portable >(In the Top 10) Toshiba T-1000 I've also done some time on the T-1000 (the floppy-only 8088 unit with 640k) and it's certainly better than average. By comparison, my last two laptops were NEC Versa 6050mx boxes. Wore one out and bought a "factory reconditioned" unit a couple of years ago. Wouldn't you know it: the second unit had the same faults. Keyboard that gets "sticky" after a few months. Case cracks in about three stress points. Soldered components coming "unsoldered" (they used some kind of really soft solder in the 6050 and connectors and components just "rock loose" after being stressed by case flexing.) Basically most new (last 4 years) laptops have marginal keyboards and seemed to be designed to die shortly after their (usually short) warranty runs out. -Gary >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun Feb 20 13:10:59 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com>; from netsurfer_x1@hotmail.com on Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 05:41:06PM +0000 References: <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <20000220131059.X23767@mrbill.net> On Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 05:41:06PM +0000, David Vohs wrote: > Here's a new discussion for ya': a top ten list of the best laptop > kayboards! I already know who's going to be number 1, but, just the same, > here are my picks for the list: > Postion Laptop > 1. TRS-80 Model 100 > 2. TRS-80 Model 200 > (In the Top 5) Macintosh Portable > (In the Top 10) Toshiba T-1000 I'd actually say "Any old Toshiba" in place of the T-1000; I've got a couple of the older Toshiba 3xxx series with the orange/red plasma display that I use as console terminals, since the keyboards are so nice. My GRiD laptop also has a very nice keyboard. Bill -- +----------------+------ ------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | http://www.mrbill.net | +----------------+-------------------+-----------------------+----------+ | When someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown. | | However, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap them. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Feb 20 13:36:04 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000220113424.02a3ad90@mcmanis.com> I got a couple of "free" VT320 terminals with a system I picked up and they both work but they are both pretty dim. (one is reasonably bright after a 30 - 40 minute warm up). Now in the video game market there are kits to rejuvenate a tube but I don't know what the equivalent would be for a VT320. Tony? Anyone? Is there anything I can do? --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Feb 20 15:02:19 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000220105614.035f6970@buffy.ao.com> References: <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >Basically most new (last 4 years) laptops have marginal keyboards and >seemed to be >designed to die shortly after their (usually short) warranty runs out. Isn't that most keyboards? I've gotten a couple new PC keyboards in the last 2-3 years, both have been tossed, and I'm using a 10 year old 101-keyboard with them. My new PowerMac G4/450 is the same way, toss both the keyboard and mouse, and am using an ADB Apple Extended Keyboard II and ADB Mouse II via a ADB-to-USB converter. I've been buying laptops since '87, when I was in the Navy, that's normally all I had room for. The Kaypro 2000 I got in '87 had the best keyboard. The Twinhead in '90 really sucked, so did the P90 in '95, the Apple PowerBook 520c, also in '95 was the best I've gotten since the Twinhead. I've since replaced that with the PowerBook 540c as the 520c screen died, and it was cheaper to get the 540c with an Active Matrix screen than it was to get a replacement for the 520c's Passive Matrix screen, anyway the 540c has the same decent keyboard. One nice feature I've not seen since the Kaypro and Twinhead is the detachable keyboard, of course only the Kaypro had true keys. Gotta agree about the comment on the early Toshiba's, at least the T5200 and prior all had great keyboards! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 20 12:59:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Qume QVT103 terminal In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Feb 19, 0 07:35:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 653 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000220/bc07bb2b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 20 12:56:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000220094854.233f9226@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 20, 0 09:48:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 310 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000220/abd17529/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Feb 20 15:27:00 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Anyone need a MicroVAX II CPU + memory? Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000220132132.029ce970@mcmanis.com> I've got several spare sets of KA630 and MS630-BB (4MB) boards now. If someone wants a set here is a chance to get one. I'm offering the following: 1 KA630 CPU (MicroVAX II w/ 1MB of RAM on board) 2 MS640-BB 4MB Parity Memory boards 1 3 board Memory buss ribbon cable connector. Their $20 shipping included to anywhere in the US. Outside the US it'll be $15 + whatever postage costs. --Chuck From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Feb 20 15:16:46 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? Message-ID: <000220161646.2560213d@trailing-edge.com> >I got a couple of "free" VT320 terminals with a system I picked up and they >both work but they are both pretty dim. (one is reasonably bright after a >30 - 40 minute warm up). Now in the video game market there are kits to >rejuvenate a tube but I don't know what the equivalent would be for a >VT320. Tony? Anyone? Is there anything I can do? As a very first pass, on most terminals you can crank an internal pot to increase the maximum brightness. You will almost certainly find that there's some interaction with the focus. In *my* opinion, using my current price/performance/effort/time tradeoff matrix, if tweaking the pot doesn't yield a satisfactory display, the right thing to do is get a new CRT for the terminal. Open up an issue of _Processor_ and you'll find dozens of places that sell replacement CRT's for terminals of just about every make. Why go the new CRT route? Yes, it's expensive, but if you're going to be using the terminal into the future (and it'll be just as usable fifteen years from now as it was when it was new) it's the right thing to do. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Feb 20 15:32:34 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: 11/03 WCS? Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000220133152.00be3ac0@mcmanis.com> I have an 11/03 module (M7270) with all of its sockets filled, does that mean it has the WCS option or is it simply FP + EIS ? --Chuck From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Feb 20 16:28:19 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: new finds Message-ID: hit the thrift stores today and found a few neat things like: IBM PS/2 3511 which is a 9595 server SCSI enclosure. apple II business graphics application still in original packaging. PS/2 model 25 with original box that neighbor gave to me for free. some macintosh books and original disks including a cassette tape thats a guided tour of macwrite and macpaint. found an atari 1200xl in box but no power supply. the person says they will check next week to see if they have it. all in all, not a bad weekend. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm --You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think-- From mbg at world.std.com Sun Feb 20 16:47:02 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: 11/03 WCS? Message-ID: <200002202247.RAA23289@world.std.com> >I have an 11/03 module (M7270) with all of its sockets filled, does that >mean it has the WCS option or is it simply FP + EIS ? The WCS option was an entire separate (quad) *board*, not a chip. What you probably have is the 11/03, 11/2 chipset +EIS/FIS. Also, please note FIS != FPP/FPU/FPA. It is FADD, FSUB, FMUL, FDIV. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 20 15:26:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:05 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000220113424.02a3ad90@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Feb 20, 0 11:36:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2526 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000220/ecca1fed/attachment.ksh From ccureau at pcstarnet.com Sun Feb 20 17:33:28 2000 From: ccureau at pcstarnet.com (Chris Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Anyone need a MicroVAX II CPU + memory? References: <4.2.0.58.20000220132132.029ce970@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <38B079C8.3502A8D4@pcstarnet.com> Hey, Chuck... I could use those boards for spares in my UVax II. If they're not already spoken for, let me know. Cheers, Chris Chuck McManis wrote: > I've got several spare sets of KA630 and MS630-BB (4MB) boards now. If > someone wants a set here is a chance to get one. I'm offering the following: > 1 KA630 CPU (MicroVAX II w/ 1MB of RAM on board) > 2 MS640-BB 4MB Parity Memory boards > 1 3 board Memory buss ribbon cable connector. > > Their $20 shipping included to anywhere in the US. Outside the US it'll be > $15 + whatever postage costs. > > --Chuck From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 20 18:48:21 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000220113424.02a3ad90@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000220194821.4f6f094e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Chuck, Those kits are usually just a simple autotransformer that boast the filament voltage by 30% or so. Since it's a transformer it will work on any AC voltage within reason. You just have to find one that matchs the CRT plug. FWIW if those terminals have a cover over the CRT, take it off and clean it and the front of the CRT. It's surprising how much dust gets in between them over the years. Joe At 11:36 AM 2/20/00 -0800, you wrote: >I got a couple of "free" VT320 terminals with a system I picked up and they >both work but they are both pretty dim. (one is reasonably bright after a >30 - 40 minute warm up). Now in the video game market there are kits to >rejuvenate a tube but I don't know what the equivalent would be for a >VT320. Tony? Anyone? Is there anything I can do? > >--Chuck > > From jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com Sun Feb 20 17:59:27 2000 From: jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com (John Dykstra) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: TEAC Data Cassette Drive - Available for cost of shipping Message-ID: I've got an TEAC data cassette drive with SCSI interface, model MT-2ST/N50, available to the first responder for the cost of shipping. The drive works, but there's no warranty. It has had light usage and is in good condition, but I have no idea how much life is left on the heads. This is the drive only--no enclosure or power supply. I also have twelve data cassettes that fit this drive. The "buyer" of the drive has first dibs on these, but if s/he doesn't want them, I'll make them available separately. As far as I know, there's no commercial source for these any more. If you want this drive and/or cassettes, email me your address and desired method of shipping. If I don't hear anything by Wednesday, they go up on eBay. ---- John Dykstra jdykstra@nortelnetworks.com Principal Software Architect voice: +1 651 415-1604 Nortel Networks fax: +1 612 932-8549 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000220/375258a8/attachment.html From jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com Sun Feb 20 17:59:28 2000 From: jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com (John Dykstra) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Archive Viper Data Cartridge Drive - Available for cost of shippi ng Message-ID: I've got an Archive "Viper" 150 MB. data cartridge drive with SCSI interface, model 2150S, available to the first responder for the cost of shipping. The drive worked the last time I used it (several years ago), but there's no warranty. The belt, heads and capstan are unworn and appear in good condition. This is the drive only--no enclosure or power supply. If you want them, I also have seven data cartridges. Althrough they physically fit this drive, they may not all be accepted by the drive's firmware--I have a half memory that certain drives only worked with certain cartridges. If you want this drive and the cartridges, email me your address, desired method of shipping, and whether you want the cartridges. If I don't hear anything by Wednesday, it goes up on eBay. ---- John Dykstra jdykstra@nortelnetworks.com Principal Software Architect voice: +1 651 415-1604 Nortel Networks fax: +1 612 932-8549 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000220/ff6921e5/attachment.html From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 20 18:54:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: 11/03 WCS? Message-ID: <200002210054.TAA02943@world.std.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Feb 20, 0 04:16:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1545 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000220/18e943a1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 20 19:03:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000220194821.4f6f094e@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 20, 0 07:48:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1166 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000221/52abe9b8/attachment.ksh From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Feb 20 19:09:41 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Ham population stats References: <20000216163135.B20438@dbit.dbit.com> <20000216155824.F25662@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <005401bf7c08$56497320$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Shawn T. Rutledge To: Sent: Thursday, 17 February 2000 9:28 Subject: Re: Ham population stats > > Stupid question: what comes out of the other side of a ham TNC these days? > > It used to be Bell 202 modem tones at 1200 baud HDX, over an FM voice signal, > > it *can't* still be that easy though can it? Some place I still have the > > Yeah 1200 baud AFSK hasn't changed but there are many new methods of > doing more-reliable data transfer on HF and also faster speeds on other > frequencies. It would be very cool to be able to use AX.25 Packet from a Vax running VMS. I have seen native AX.25 support for linux, so I guess it wouldn't be too hard to do in VMS. I'd REALLY like to see the support for Baycom modems that linux has too. (TNC's are grossly overpriced - even now). Not sure how you'd do it on a DMB32 or similar though, don't know enough about the hardware or how the o/s talks to it. It's unlikely you could do the same thing exactly the same way. On a pc it uses the serial port handshaking lines (presumably so slower machines wouldn't miss something whilst the TNC emulation TSR was busily translating the raw AX.25 - something I suspect is not really necessary unless it's a REALLY slow machine (at 1200bps anyway). I suspect if a Vax can cope with an asyncronous decnet connection @ 9600 on a DMB serial port, AX.25 TNC emulation @ 1200 should be no problem.... Hmmmm...... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Feb 20 19:16:07 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Ham population stats References: Message-ID: <006c01bf7c09$3b5a8080$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Thursday, 17 February 2000 5:14 Subject: Re: Ham population stats > > On Topic: I want to use the PDP 11/44 to talk to my (vintage) AEA > > PK232 Multi-Mode terminal node controller... but even more I want > > Is there any problem in doing that? Just link the TNC to a spare DL11 in > the 11/44. Have to agree. Bare minimum for packet is a terminal and a TNC, provided you don't want to save anything. > > to lash up an RTTY program for the PDP, to send and recieve Baudot > > in real time. > > DL11s can be jumpered for 5 bits and 1.5 stop bits IIRC. Any Vax hardware that could do this trick? Particularly the DMB32 I mentioned previously? The ports are good to 19,200 F/D but no idea of the UART's (or whatever it is they use instead) Call me obsessed (aren't we all?) but the idea of being able to do packet and rtty from the one Vax with just modems and all the AX.25 etc done in software appeals to me. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Feb 20 19:25:23 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? Message-ID: <000220202523.25602173@trailing-edge.com> >> issue of _Processor_ and you'll find dozens of places that sell >> replacement CRT's for terminals of just about every make. >You're lucky!. Monochrome CRTs are almost impossible to obtain in the UK >-- most places that I've tried tell me that it's not worth replacing >them. This is probably correct if the unit in question is a \pounds 50.00 >portable TV. As long as we're on this subject - are B&W TV's with screens larger than 5 inches or so still common in the UK, Europe, Russia, anywhere? It's been at least 15 years since B&W TV's with 12" or larger screens were available here in the US. You *can* still find new composite-input B&W video monitors up into the 9" or 12" size range, but these are marketed towards closed-circuit TV (i.e. security) installations and tend to be more expensive than color TV's of the same size. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 20 19:56:37 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: <000220202523.25602173@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Feb 20, 0 08:25:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 571 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000221/03063672/attachment.ksh From bsa3 at cornell.edu Sun Feb 20 20:17:58 2000 From: bsa3 at cornell.edu (Brad Ackerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: TEAC Data Cassette Drive - Available for cost of shipping In-Reply-To: ; from John Dykstra on Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 05:59:27PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20000220211758.A3740@cornell.edu> On Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 05:59:27PM -0600, John Dykstra wrote: [re Teac cassette drive] > I also have twelve data cassettes that fit this drive. The "buyer" of the > drive has first dibs on these, but if s/he doesn't want them, I'll make them > available separately. As far as I know, there's no commercial source for > these any more. Is this the model that takes tapes which look like consumer analog audiocassettes? If so, I bought some Maxell-brand tapes for one of these from Colamco about four years ago. -- Brad Ackerman N1MNB "You're a cyborg -- look it up." bsa3@cornell.edu Wandering Gweep -- Bradley Rhodes, to Josh Weaver PGP: 0x62D6B223 http://skaro.pair.com/ IAP lecture, 21 January 2000 From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Feb 20 20:45:02 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: References: <000220202523.25602173@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000220213601.00b67d70@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:56 AM 2/21/00 +0000, Tony Duell said something like: >> As long as we're on this subject - are B&W TV's with screens larger than >> 5 inches or so still common in the UK, Europe, Russia, anywhere? > >I've no idea if they're still being made (I've long since given up buying >_new_ consumer electronics [1]), but certainly 12" B&W portable TVs were >sold in the UK very recently. There's a cheaper TV license if you only >have B&W TVs, you see. You _still_ need a license to own a radio or TV in the UK Tony? I knew that to be the case from the earliest days of radio before WWII but I hadn't heard of that being done in recent times. BTW, I've got a 1930-vintage license which came with my 1926-vintage RCA Radiola 20 which once was owned by a fellow up in Nova Scotia province. > >[1] In my experience it's better to rebuild a 10-year-old TV or VCR and >have a machine that will last a good few years than buy a new one which >will fail in a year's time. Sure _is_ junk sold nowadays! Ugh! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From broth at heathers.stdio.com Mon Feb 21 21:07:01 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Goodies Message-ID: <38B1FD55.139AA309@heathers.stdio.com> Just picked up some interesting goodies this weekend. How about a UNIVAC 1610 card punch station. Its in great shape and I think it'll work with a good degrunging. Also got a whole boatload of DEC manuals and handbooks including the original handbook for the classic 8 including a software reference and price list. I also received a VAXstation II that had a card by CMD in it. It may be wishful thinking but it has a 50 pin header on it with three resistor packs like a SCSI. The model is CQD-220/M. Anyone heard of this one? Brian. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Feb 20 20:43:58 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000220105614.035f6970@buffy.ao.com> <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >101-keyboard with them. My new PowerMac G4/450 is the same way, toss both >the keyboard and mouse, and am using an ADB Apple Extended Keyboard II and >ADB Mouse II via a ADB-to-USB converter. Apple Extended Keyboard II is one of the best. Most Apple brand keyboards though have some "following", ie different people think different models are the best. From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Feb 20 21:52:45 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Goodies References: <38B1FD55.139AA309@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: <38B0B68D.282366AC@idirect.com> >Brian Roth wrote: > Just picked up some interesting goodies this weekend. How about a UNIVAC > 1610 card punch station. Its in great shape and I think it'll work with > a good degrunging. Also got a whole boatload of DEC manuals and > handbooks including the original handbook for the classic 8 including a > software reference and price list. Jerome Fine replies: I remember cutting my teeth on a UNIVAC 1107 - well, not my first computer which was an IBM 650. But at this point, I don't feel I want to go back to using punch cards. > I also received a VAXstation II that had a card by CMD in it. It may be > wishful thinking but it has a 50 pin header on it with three resistor > packs like a SCSI. The model is CQD-220/M. Anyone heard of this one? The CQD-220/M is a SCSI host adapter for hard disk drives ONLY - no tape drives allowed. CMD also made a disk/tape version called a CQD-220/TM as well as a tape ONLY version called CQD-220/T. The CQD-220/M is likely useful to others, so perhaps offer it for sale if you don't have a use for it. I would certainly buy it if you are not going to use it yourself. But, if you are going to use your uVAX II, just hook up a SCSI drive and it should run. Is your VAXstation II the model which is a BA23 with 3 slots filled with epoxy? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Feb 20 22:04:04 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Goodies In-Reply-To: <38B1FD55.139AA309@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000220200221.028a9100@mcmanis.com> At 10:07 PM 2/21/00 -0500, Brian Roth wrote: >Just picked up some interesting goodies this weekend. How about a UNIVAC >1610 card punch station. Its in great shape and I think it'll work with >a good degrunging. Also got a whole boatload of DEC manuals and >handbooks including the original handbook for the classic 8 including a >software reference and price list. Neat, didn't happen to get a KA655 or KA650 CPU Technical Manual did you? That ones on my wishlist. >I also received a VAXstation II that had a card by CMD in it. It may be >wishful thinking but it has a 50 pin header on it with three resistor >packs like a SCSI. The model is CQD-220/M. Anyone heard of this one? Looks like you scored Brian, that would be the CMD SCSI disk controller, about the only thing better would be the CQD-220/TM which does tape and disk. --Chuck From mac at Wireless.Com Sun Feb 20 22:14:07 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The best keyboard ever invented is on the ThinkPad 770. Period. And I've been using keyboards of all types since 1959. -Mike On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >101-keyboard with them. My new PowerMac G4/450 is the same way, toss both > >the keyboard and mouse, and am using an ADB Apple Extended Keyboard II and > >ADB Mouse II via a ADB-to-USB converter. > > Apple Extended Keyboard II is one of the best. Most Apple brand keyboards > though have some "following", ie different people think different models > are the best. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Feb 21 00:45:28 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:56:37AM +0000 References: <000220202523.25602173@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000221014528.A1530@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:56:37AM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > [1] In my experience it's better to rebuild a 10-year-old TV or VCR and > have a machine that will last a good few years than buy a new one which > will fail in a year's time. Plus, the older ones probably won't have the fascist anti-copying filters! BTW, do Sams Photofacts still exist, and if so can they be ordered on-line? Our old VCR has been getting picky about what channels it will and won't receive, but I'm probably too dense to repair a tuner even *with* schematics, let alone without. But the only real electronics shop in the area can't get Photofacts any more... John Wilson D Bit From nerdware at laidbak.com Mon Feb 21 00:46:39 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: IIgs stuff update Message-ID: <200002210646.AAA25409@garcon.laidbak.com> Hello, boys and girls. I got four responses right off the bat, so I'm going to sort out who wants what and then I'll post what's left in a couple of days. Thanks to those who responded so far. I'm glad they're going to go to classiccmp people....I've gotten a few orphans that way, so I'm glad to be able to give something back. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Feb 21 02:58:51 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Hamfinds, what is it? In-Reply-To: References: <000220161646.2560213d@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Feb 20, 0 04:16:46 pm Message-ID: Among my bucket of wonders from the Cal Poly Pomona hamfest I have a pair of DIGITAL processor cards. Roughly 6x8 inches with two socket 5 zif sockets, one empty, one with a P90. DIGITAL is marked on it, 1994, a barcode label with *TA445F1042 (other card is different), on the back is a second bar code and the same number is also on the board *54-23534-02*. What is it? Yes I know its a P54C cpu board, but what did it go in? My only planned use is to nab the p90 off each of them, so let me know if its something usefull. The 256k cache simm is also still on it. ************* Teletype 33 on a nasty stand, someones treasure, but sure wasn't mine. Might be at TRW though the guy was a regular hamfest seller. From flo at rdel.co.uk Mon Feb 21 03:22:23 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? References: Message-ID: <38B103CF.39EDC9BB@rdel.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > > I'd start by cleaning the screen. Yes, you can laugh, but it caught > me once, on a VT100. I spent a morning tracing a dim picture which > turned out to be a screen coated in 10 years of gunge! No! That's my anti-glare layer! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Feb 21 03:23:50 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >The best keyboard ever invented is on the ThinkPad 770. Period. Maybe so, but I don't get to touch my wife's 770. She seems to like it, too much. ;) From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Feb 21 07:49:35 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Reminds me of that Dilbert cartoon where his wife accuses him of loving his computer more than her, to which he responds, "I do not love *this* computer more than you," and thinking, "Don't ask about the laptop, don't ask about the laptop..." Aaron On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >The best keyboard ever invented is on the ThinkPad 770. Period. > > Maybe so, but I don't get to touch my wife's 770. She seems to like it, too > much. ;) > > From jdarren at ala.net Mon Feb 21 08:15:59 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (J. Darren Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: free Tektronix 7A26 manual for shipping costs Message-ID: <001a01bf7c76$2ddce660$0f186bce@darren> I would like to find a home for a Tektronix 7A26 Dual Trace Amplifier Instruction Manual and will give it for the cost of shipping. The shipping will be $3.20 for USPS Priority Mail. I will send to first person to contact. Thanks. From jdarren at ala.net Mon Feb 21 08:17:28 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (J. Darren Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: free Tektronix 7603 manual for shipping costs Message-ID: <002801bf7c76$63188640$0f186bce@darren> I would like to find a home for a Tektronix 7603 / R7603 Oscilloscope Service Manual and will give it for the cost of shipping. The shipping will be $3.20 for USPS Priority Mail. I will send to first person to contact. Thanks. From broth at heathers.stdio.com Tue Feb 22 08:18:48 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Goodies References: <4.2.0.58.20000220200221.028a9100@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <38B29AC8.28E76237@heathers.stdio.com> Chuck, Chuck McManis wrote: > At 10:07 PM 2/21/00 -0500, Brian Roth wrote: > >Just picked up some interesting goodies this weekend. How about a UNIVAC > >1610 card punch station. Its in great shape and I think it'll work with > >a good degrunging. Also got a whole boatload of DEC manuals and > >handbooks including the original handbook for the classic 8 including a > >software reference and price list. > > Neat, didn't happen to get a KA655 or KA650 CPU Technical Manual did you? > That ones on my wishlist. > I haven't run across one yet. I still have some box's to go through. I'll let you know if there is one in there. > > >I also received a VAXstation II that had a card by CMD in it. It may be > >wishful thinking but it has a 50 pin header on it with three resistor > >packs like a SCSI. The model is CQD-220/M. Anyone heard of this one? > > Looks like you scored Brian, that would be the CMD SCSI disk controller, > about the only thing better would be the CQD-220/TM which does tape and disk. > > --Chuck From broth at heathers.stdio.com Tue Feb 22 08:28:39 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Goodies References: <38B1FD55.139AA309@heathers.stdio.com> <38B0B68D.282366AC@idirect.com> Message-ID: <38B29D17.A8A033FD@heathers.stdio.com> Jerome, Jerome Fine wrote: > >Brian Roth wrote: > > > Just picked up some interesting goodies this weekend. How about a UNIVAC > > 1610 card punch station. Its in great shape and I think it'll work with > > a good degrunging. Also got a whole boatload of DEC manuals and > > handbooks including the original handbook for the classic 8 including a > > software reference and price list. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I remember cutting my teeth on a UNIVAC 1107 - well, not my first > computer which was an IBM 650. But at this point, I don't feel I > want to go back to using punch cards. > > > I also received a VAXstation II that had a card by CMD in it. It may be > > wishful thinking but it has a 50 pin header on it with three resistor > > packs like a SCSI. The model is CQD-220/M. Anyone heard of this one? > > The CQD-220/M is a SCSI host adapter for hard disk drives ONLY - no > tape drives allowed. CMD also made a disk/tape version called a > CQD-220/TM as well as a tape ONLY version called CQD-220/T. > > The CQD-220/M is likely useful to others, so perhaps offer it for sale > if you don't have a use for it. I would certainly buy it if you are not > going to use it yourself. But, if you are going to use your uVAX II, > just hook up a SCSI drive and it should run. Is your VAXstation II the > model which is a BA23 with 3 slots filled with epoxy? > I did get on their site after posting this. They only have manuals for the 220A and by the looks of the configuration diagrams it is not the same card. Newer ones used dips and this one has jumpers. Chip placement is all different as well. Does anyone have at least jumper info for this guy? I do plan on keeping this one. I have been looking for a decently priced Q-bus SCSI card for a while. Go figure I find one for free... > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Feb 21 09:08:49 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Univac was Re: Goodies In-Reply-To: <38B1FD55.139AA309@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000221100849.316f782e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Brian, I spotted a Univar 1540 in a scrap yard here (central Florida). It looks MOL complete but it's condition can best be described as "rough". Joe At 10:07 PM 2/21/00 -0500, you wrote: >Just picked up some interesting goodies this weekend. How about a UNIVAC >1610 card punch station. Its in great shape and I think it'll work with >a good degrunging. Also got a whole boatload of DEC manuals and >handbooks including the original handbook for the classic 8 including a >software reference and price list. > >I also received a VAXstation II that had a card by CMD in it. It may be >wishful thinking but it has a 50 pin header on it with three resistor >packs like a SCSI. The model is CQD-220/M. Anyone heard of this one? > > >Brian. > > From jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com Mon Feb 21 08:51:57 2000 From: jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com (John Dykstra) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Archive Viper and TEAC data cassette drives are spoken for Message-ID: And sorry for the HTML. If Outlook 97 has an option to send plain text, they've got it well hidden. ---- John Dykstra jdykstra@nortelnetworks.com Principal Software Architect voice: ESN 454-1604 Carrier Packet Solutions fax: ESN 667-8549 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000221/5013ed03/attachment.html From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Feb 21 09:02:57 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Stuff to trade/stuff I'm looking for Message-ID: While I'm thinking about it, I thought I'd do a quick troll for stuff I've been looking for. I'd rather trade around for stuff, but I'd be willing to pay real money (gasp) for some stuff: A keyboard for my HP2649 terminal HP2392, HP2622, or HP2645 terminal. I need one for my 3000 (using a laptop with an HP term program right now). The 2649 I have is dubious; I get a screen full of what looks like garbage to me, but then again, I don't have a keyboard and, in addition, the 2649 is interesting in that it could have a custom program on it for something other than being a straight terminal. An HD for my HP3000 that will fit in the bottom rack space. I've gotten some great info from Joe Rigdon on models and have my eyes open; I need something big enough so that I can do the initial install of MPE V 3P with full subsys (it's been estimated that I need at least 100mb or so). Qbus ethernet card (for my 11/23 compat) Qbus scsi controller card Qbus MFM controller card A scsi interface for the Atari ST (like an ICD/etc). A Hayes Smartmodem 2400 w/ps. What I currently have to trade: Sparcprinter w/LP sbus interface card/required cables Sparc 1 w/24megs ram (If you want both, I'll give you the lpviio.h header file for Ghostscript and you could use linux to make a printer server - i.e., cheap networked laser printer for Mac/Windows/Unix machines) SunOS 4.1 System Manual, volumes I - III SunOS 4.0 Network Administrator's Guide SunView Programmers Guide I'm sure there's a couple others (all 3-ring binders) Cables, cables, cables. DB25 and DB9 serial, AT keyboard extenders, other misc, lots of them. Cat5 patch bay, 24 ports. (warning: not yet classic in the list sense) 486 laptops in various states. A bunch of working Epson Action Note 650's, a working Epson Action Note 895c (color, Cyrix DX4-100). Pentium laptops, mostly pieces. Retired for cracked screens/non operational. Some of the Dell P-75 bases work fine (cracked screens). I'd gladly entertain interesting trades for any of this stuff, with one caveat: I am the world's worst shipper. It takes me a long time to do it, and I hate it with a passion. As a general rule, I really won't ship anything that weighs more than 20 pounds total. Also, I mostly got this stuff for free/trades, so I don't really want to "sell" any of it... I'll be at TRW this month, so I'd be happy to bring anything down there with me...just let me know if you want any of it! Cheers, Aaron From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Feb 21 10:39:14 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Stuff to trade/stuff I'm looking for In-Reply-To: from Aaron Christopher Finney at "Feb 21, 2000 07:02:57 am" Message-ID: <200002211639.LAA02744@bg-tc-ppp738.monmouth.com> > Sparcprinter w/LP sbus interface card/required cables > SunOS 4.1 System Manual, volumes I - III > SunOS 4.0 Network Administrator's Guide > SunView Programmers Guide > I'm sure there's a couple others (all 3-ring binders) I'm interested in the interface card and cables -- I've got a bunch of Sparcprinters here. > 486 laptops in various states. A bunch of working Epson Action Note 650's, > a working Epson Action Note 895c (color, Cyrix DX4-100). How much memory/disk...? I'm looking for a laptop to run Linux/FreeBSD (even 500mb of disk will do and 16mb of memory or more on a 486 or higher). I've got the PCMCIA network cards and modems for the rest. > > Pentium laptops, mostly pieces. Retired for cracked screens/non > operational. Some of the Dell P-75 bases work fine (cracked screens). > Bill bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From liste at artware.qc.ca Mon Feb 21 11:10:17 2000 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On 20-Feb-00 David Vohs wrote: > Here's a new discussion for ya': a top ten list of the best laptop > kayboards! I already know who's going to be number 1, but, just the > same, > here are my picks for the list: > > Postion Laptop > 1. TRS-80 Model 100 Hear hear! > 2. TRS-80 Model 200 > (In the Top 5) Macintosh Portable > (In the Top 10) Toshiba T-1000 I used a T-1100 extensively in 1992 while I was in Bolivia. I don't remember a particular fondness for the keyboard. However, this was back before keyboards started to suck, so maybe I wasn't as alert to keyboard feel. BTW : what *is* it about keyboards these days? I use a 5 year old keytronics keyboard. The K, L, N and M keys now lack letters (right handed guitarist with long fingernails). I've thought of replacing it, but none of the keyboards I try have the same hard feel. They all feel wishy-washy. I'm currently concidering a (not classic) happy hacking keyboard, but wish I could try one out first. -Philip From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Feb 21 11:35:28 2000 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard Message-ID: <8025688C.00608C64.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > Here's a new discussion for ya': a top ten list of the best laptop > kayboards! I already know who's going to be number 1, but, just the same, > here are my picks for the list: OK, I'll be controversial. 1. Epson HX20 2. Tandy TRS-80 model 100 3.... I've never used any other laptops with decent keyboards. In fact, I've used very few pcs with decent keyboards. I have a PS/2 keyboard on my machine at work - it has followed me through at least three machines now... Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Feb 21 16:56:21 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Amiga and BSD o/s Message-ID: Hello, all you guys out there I'm wanting to try out one (or both) of Open BSD and NetBSD on my lil' ol' Amiga -- I really need someone who has gone through the teething process of formatting drives and instaling necessary files, etc. Amiga o/s is neat, but Id like to get into something with a more viable future. Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP Amigaphile and boatanchor collector PS -- liked that ref to Univax -- reminded me of the Jetsons cartoon where the robot was called Uniblab . . . From steverob at hotoffice.com Mon Feb 21 12:27:44 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: MPE Update was "Stuff to trade" Message-ID: <01BF7C6F.701E20E0.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > An HD for my HP3000 that will fit in the bottom rack space. I've gotten > some great info from Joe Rigdon on models and have my eyes open; I need > something big enough so that I can do the initial install of MPE V 3P with > full subsys (it's been estimated that I need at least 100mb or so). Received my MPE tapes on Friday and installed the OS and patches over the weekend. Everything worked out just fine. It's really nice having *ALL* the subsystems again :-) Steve Robertson From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Feb 21 12:38:40 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: MPE Update was "Stuff to trade" In-Reply-To: <01BF7C6F.701E20E0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: Congratulations! I'm really looking forward to being able to reload... On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: > > > > An HD for my HP3000 that will fit in the bottom rack space. I've gotten > > some great info from Joe Rigdon on models and have my eyes open; I need > > something big enough so that I can do the initial install of MPE V 3P > with > > full subsys (it's been estimated that I need at least 100mb or so). > > Received my MPE tapes on Friday and installed the OS and patches over the > weekend. Everything worked out just fine. It's really nice having *ALL* the > subsystems again :-) > > Steve Robertson > > > From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Feb 21 12:54:59 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: T.D. Systems TDL-12 Message-ID: <20000221.125501.218.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: Anybody know what this is? I'm almost certain it is a Q-BUS SCSI adaptor, but is it for disk, tape, or ??? Is is MSCP? Does it emulate RK-0x's, or what? Thanks! Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From spc at armigeron.com Mon Feb 21 13:31:25 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <8025688C.00608C64.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Feb 21, 2000 05:35:28 PM Message-ID: <200002211931.OAA20035@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk once stated: > > > > > > > Here's a new discussion for ya': a top ten list of the best laptop > > kayboards! I already know who's going to be number 1, but, just the same, > > here are my picks for the list: 1. Data General/1. 2. There are no other laptop keyboards worth talking about. > In fact, I've used very few pcs with decent keyboards. I have a PS/2 keyboard > on my machine at work - it has followed me through at least three machines > now... Each year I've attended the Miami Hamfest, I always pick up any IBM AT or PS/2 keyboards as they're the only ones I'll use anymore. Even if I don't have an immediate use for them. -spc (And they seem to go for about $5, incredibly enough) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 21 12:46:01 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: <20000221014528.A1530@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Feb 21, 0 01:45:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1630 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000221/83571358/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 21 12:40:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000220213601.00b67d70@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Feb 20, 0 09:45:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2614 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000221/c7b8386a/attachment.ksh From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Feb 21 14:13:10 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <8025688C.00608C64.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk>; from Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk on Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 05:35:28PM +0000 References: <8025688C.00608C64.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <20000221141310.K23767@mrbill.net> On Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 05:35:28PM +0000, Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > In fact, I've used very few pcs with decent keyboards. I have a PS/2 keyboard > on my machine at work - it has followed me through at least three machines > now... > Philip. Surprised I'm the first person to mention these (altho not laptop, they fit the 10-year rule): Northgate Omnikey keyboards. I find these at the local Goodwill Computerworks from time to time for $5 each, and I snag them as fast as I see them. I've got a hoard of five or so now, and unless my fiancee uses them (she smokes, and tends to fill keyboards with ashes) they last forever. My other favorite keyboards are the classic IBM "big clicky" 101-key, and the Sun Type5 (dunno if the T5 meets the 10year rule tho). Bill -- +----------------+------ ------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | http://www.mrbill.net | +----------------+-------------------+-----------------------+----------+ | When someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown. | | However, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap them. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Feb 21 15:10:06 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <20000221141310.K23767@mrbill.net>; from mrbill@mrbill.net on Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 02:13:10PM -0600 References: <8025688C.00608C64.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> <20000221141310.K23767@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20000221161006.A3421@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 02:13:10PM -0600, Bill Bradford wrote: > Surprised I'm the first person to mention these (altho not laptop, they > fit the 10-year rule): > > Northgate Omnikey keyboards. They're that old? Dee One Systems was selling them new surprisingly recently, I *almost* love mine but I've got two main complaints: - why is the autorepeat so fast? if you lean on Del by accident you delete half your file, it repeats much faster than the actual rate you program it for - I wish the "=" keypad key sent a different scan code from the one on the main keyboard, so I could use it to do an *exact* emulation of the VT100 keypad, but it seems there's no way to tell them apart I really like the keyboard otherwise though -- the best of both worlds, it has all the keys (I'm talking about the Omnikey 102 here), but the function keys are on the left as god intended, and the Ctrl key is where it belongs too. Really hated to have to retrain my fingers after all that time using good ol' well-made 83/84-key keyboards. I like the *feel* of Focus keyboards, but they just don't last. They've been around long enough that they only recently dropped the XT/AT mode switch, but they don't seem to have survived the transition to PS/2 connectors, and certainly not USB, oh well so much for that. Anyway IMHO nothing will ever beat the feel and layout of the DEC VT100 keyboard! Or whichever 8-bit luggable cloned it (Kaypro?). John Wilson D Bit From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Feb 21 15:45:34 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <20000221161006.A3421@dbit.dbit.com>; from wilson@dbit.dbit.com on Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 04:10:06PM -0500 References: <8025688C.00608C64.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> <20000221141310.K23767@mrbill.net> <20000221161006.A3421@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000221154534.P23767@mrbill.net> On Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 04:10:06PM -0500, John Wilson wrote: > Anyway IMHO nothing will ever beat the feel and layout of the DEC VT100 > keyboard! Or whichever 8-bit luggable cloned it (Kaypro?). >From my experience, the TRS-80 Model III/IV came pretty close... Bill -- +----------------+------ ------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | http://www.mrbill.net | +----------------+-------------------+-----------------------+----------+ | When someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown. | | However, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap them. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 21 16:17:16 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000220105614.035f6970@buffy.ao.com> <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >>101-keyboard with them. My new PowerMac G4/450 is the same way, toss both >>the keyboard and mouse, and am using an ADB Apple Extended Keyboard II and >>ADB Mouse II via a ADB-to-USB converter. > >Apple Extended Keyboard II is one of the best. Most Apple brand keyboards >though have some "following", ie different people think different models >are the best. I think that $*#_)* USB atrocity is the one exception to this :^) Well, I have heard of one or two people liking it, but on the G4 list I'm on almost everyone wants to replace it. It took me a couple of hellish days to get the ADB-to-USB converter . The other real popular Apple keyboard seems to be the 'adjustable' one. I've got to admit to being rather partial to the old tiny ADB keyboard for the Apple //gs, although since I got one, it's never been on a //gs :^) Works great for Mac's though! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From msg at waste.org Mon Feb 21 16:26:25 2000 From: msg at waste.org (Infra) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: SVR4.0 'mdevice' file entry needed... Message-ID: Greetings, Would those of you with access to a SysV R4.0 system (eg. SysV/386 R4.0) please inspect /etc/conf/cf.d/mdevice for the entry beginning with 'klm' and report the results to me? If you find it could you also grab the 'space.c' files in /etc/conf/pack.d/klm and /etc/conf/pack.d/nfs directories (very small files). We're trying to fix nfs on an old box and would really appreciate your help. Thanks, Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Feb 21 16:30:48 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: Great finds today Message-ID: <002e01bf7cbb$4e678940$1b711fd1@default> Went to the local thrift and came away with the following: 1. Grid model 2260 without power supply and pen for $1 2. Vtech child see-through laptop with mouse for $5 3. A complete early model sega unit with lots of cartridges for $1 4 A box of 2600 cartridges for $1 5. A 7800 unit with cartridges for $1 6. A large box full of Mac software ( 11 boxes) for $1 7. A Mattel unit with lots of extras for $1 Those were the highlights the many other items will be list another day. Keep computing John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000221/ddbaa1d0/attachment.html From vaxman at uswest.net Mon Feb 21 16:33:45 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:06 2005 Subject: TV License in UK (was Re: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ummm.... Why do you need a license to operate a TV in the UK? And does this only apply to boxes capable of receiving a broadcast signal, or would my laptop with a DVD player fall under the rules... Clint (slightly mystified) From spc at armigeron.com Mon Feb 21 16:44:20 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Amiga and BSD o/s In-Reply-To: from "Gary Hildebrand" at Feb 21, 2000 05:56:21 PM Message-ID: <200002212244.RAA29333@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Gary Hildebrand once stated: > > Hello, all you guys out there > > I'm wanting to try out one (or both) of Open BSD and NetBSD on my lil' ol' > Amiga -- I really need someone who has gone through the teething process of > formatting drives and instaling necessary files, etc. I just recently installed NetBSD on one of the HP/Apollo 400s I have (actually, both, but the second one might have bad SCSI drives) and it was a nightmare. From reading the documentation for the HP, Sun (since I have a 3/80) and VAX (since I have three of them) it seems the installation process is different for each one, depending upon how you want to install it. I probably can't help with actual specific details about the Amiga installation, but I can help with some general info---like the partitions for NetBSD: NetBSD (like most BSD derived systems) use the following convention for partitions (I don't recall the exact terminology used): Partion letter use a filesystem b swap c entire disk Partitions `d' and above can be used for whatever you need. I can't say for the Amiga, but on the HP NetBSD install, ``disklabel'' (their version of ``fdisk'') was abysmal, requiring me to know the exact geometry of the disk (a SCSI disk no less), and I had to work out by hand the partition table. So, I had a disk with the following geometry: Head: 9 Tracks: 1540 Sectors/Track: 60 Sectors/Cyl: 540 Total Sectors: 831,060 ``disklabel'' asked the starting offset (in blocks) and size of each partition. You have to include space for the bootloader (a cylinder) and I wanted 32M of swap (usual convention is twice the physical RAM, but I wanted to split the swap space between the two drives) so breaking out the calculator and pencil, I worked out the following: Partition: Start Size a 540 765524 b 766064 65536 c 0 831,060 The rest weren't used. I should warn you that if the Amiga install is anything like the HP install, it'll be incredibly braindead and you have to type EXACTLY what they are expecting (the install program accepted ``disklabel'' but rejected ``disklabel '' (note extra space)) and you may have to do it twice. And READ everything TWICE before you start---it's all there but sometimes you have to read between the lines (I found out after wasting several hours that the boot process was indeed working, but because the kernel didn't support the video system in my particular HP the screen would go blank. It wasn't until I hooked up a terminal did I find it actually working). > Amiga o/s is neat, but Id like to get into something with a more viable > future. Why? The AmigaOS still works. Why ruin it with Unix? -spc (Most fun OS to program under) From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Feb 21 17:06:09 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Goodies References: <38B1FD55.139AA309@heathers.stdio.com> <38B0B68D.282366AC@idirect.com> <38B29D17.A8A033FD@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: <38B1C4E1.FC6C056@idirect.com> >Brian Roth wrote: > I did get on their site after posting this. They only have manuals for the > 220A and by the looks of the configuration diagrams it is not the same card. > Newer ones used dips and this one has jumpers. Chip placement is all different > as well. Does anyone have at least jumper info for this guy? Jerome Fine replies: I have access to the CQD 220/TM manual somewhere. I will dig it out ASAP. Does anyone else have the full list of jumper settings to post somewhere? > I do plan on keeping this one. I have been looking for a decently priced Q-bus > SCSI card for a while. Go figure I find one for free... That way always seems to be the most satisfying. Good luck with it!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Feb 21 17:14:43 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000220105614.035f6970@buffy.ao.com> <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >I think that $*#_)* USB atrocity is the one exception to this :^) Well, I >have heard of one or two people liking it, but on the G4 list I'm on almost >everyone wants to replace it. It took me a couple of hellish days to get >the ADB-to-USB converter . > >The other real popular Apple keyboard seems to be the 'adjustable' one. >I've got to admit to being rather partial to the old tiny ADB keyboard for >the Apple //gs, although since I got one, it's never been on a //gs :^) >Works great for Mac's though! USB is a force from PCville that could not be avoided for marketing reasons. Steve Jobs loved it because it makes people buy new equipment. I "know" I will use it, but I am not paying a premium to get in line anytime soon. BTW that the Apple Ergonomic keyboard, which sold originally for about $450, but to karpal tunnel suffers is well worth the cost. Every single one I have found in the used market has had some bad or sticky keys, so it doesn't rise up too far on my personal list of keyboards. The IIgs was actually the first ADB apple product IIRC. Very popular keyboard, mostly I think because of its small size, but some like the highly sculpted key caps too. Here is a little keyboard info Apple extended keyboard II model 3501 Apple ADB mouse model G5431, rectangle, my old favorite Apple keyboard model M0116, much more compact Apple extended Keyboard model M0115 Apple adjustable keyboard with keypad model M1242 The IIgs was numbered differently, something like 658-4250 (I could just look, as I must have 10 of every known apple keyboard except the ergonomic). From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Feb 21 17:26:55 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: TV License in UK (was Re: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors?) References: Message-ID: <38B1C9BF.516D3C40@mainecoon.com> "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote: > Ummm.... Why do you need a license to operate a TV in the UK? It's semi-historical. For the longest time UK viewers could only watch the BBC (BBC1 and 2). The BBC model is a bit like PBS in that it's commercial-free; to defray operating costs one must have a television license. ITV and others have since come along; while they support themselves via commercials you still must have a TV license since you're capable of receiving BBC. > And does > this only apply to boxes capable of receiving a broadcast signal, or > would my laptop with a DVD player fall under the rules... Only things capable of receiving "broadcast" signals require the license, which is available in various weird flavors for color and B&W, residential and commercial. Then there are the television detector vans (do they still use those?) that would prowl around looking for RF emissions from unlicensed receivers. I won't even go into cat detector vans... :-) > Clint (slightly mystified) You and me both. Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 21 17:54:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <20000221161006.A3421@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Feb 21, 0 04:10:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 609 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000221/d42ec41f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 21 18:05:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: HP9114B battery pack Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1435 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/3f7309e5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 21 17:58:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: TV License in UK (was Re: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors?) In-Reply-To: from "Clint Wolff" at Feb 21, 0 03:33:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 803 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000221/38ce1d58/attachment.ksh From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Tue Feb 22 19:29:48 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Some h/w free for shipping and some s/w FS. Message-ID: <005e01bf7d9d$7a28e0a0$da81b7d1@kstumpf> Still trying to empty free-up space in my "ware"house. If you would like an HP-IB cable or the tilt/swivel base for the original IBM PC monitor, please send your mailing address to me in a private message. First come first served. I'll confirm things with you and tell you the shipping costs. Also have a complete copy of PC Tools Version 6 for US$8 plus shipping, and something called Software Carousel (1987) for US$5 plus shipping. Please send a private message to me if you are interested. Yours in good faith. Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile www.unusual.on.ca - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) Author & Publisher of The Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Feb 21 20:04:48 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: How many Vaxes? References: <38B18910.6828DD9B@ccc.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <00c501bf7cd9$33889600$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Kolb To: Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2000 5:20 Subject: Re: How many Vaxes? > On a semi-related note, what sort of Vaxen do people on this list Ok here goes. At home. 1 Microvax II with 6mb & 85mb HDD TK50 running VMS 5.5 1 Microvax 3400 TK50 with 20Mb RAM, DSSI, SCSI, Pertec controller, no drives yet. 1 Vax 6000-430 TK70 256mb SCSI,DSSI,CI & SDI/STI & 6 x RA90's running VMS 6.2/UCX/DECNET etc. 1 HSC50 & Star Coupler (not in use - the 6k has a KDB50) 1 x TA78 (PSU faulty) 1 TU78 (Slaved from the TA78) 2 x TA79 (working - sometimes used on the 6430) 3 VS3100's 8mb RZ23's. 1 currently running cut down NetBSD. 1 Decstation 3100 with 32mb & 500mb drive (non-dec) running (sorta) NetBSD. 1 Vax 6000-260 with 64mb (not running anything yet) couple of partly dismembered 6000 cabinets for spares etc. 1 6000-320 minus ram and most of the cards (they're all in the 430) and a faulty 5v supply. (To be fixed later) 1 Microvax 2000 in bits not going. (Might be ok when I put it together) 1 Decmate in bits not going. (Floppy Drives u/s it seems) 16 RA70's in 4 x SA70 enclosures. Sa550 Cabinet(s) 1 Vax 8530 20mb ram - with CIBCI cabinet & Pro380 console. (Would be going, but I lack the console to Vax cable) At work 1 Vax 6000-440 TK70 256mb 3 x RA72 5 x RA70 6 x RA92 served from HSC70. 1 SCSI cd on a CMD controller 1 x TU81+ Running VMS6.0, Vaxcluster, Multinet 3.2 Rev B, MX Mail 5.1, IUPOP3, WASD Web/Proxy Server, Madgoat FTP. 1 VS4000-90 32Mb RAM numerous SCSI drives & Sony CDROM. 2.88 mb FDD. VMS 6.2 & UCX + Vaxcluster. (The 4000-90 is actually mine, I just use it at work) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Feb 21 20:31:51 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: IBM 4381 Avbl in South Australia Message-ID: <00ea01bf7cdc$fad0cae0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Anyone able to tell me something about this type of system? It's about 300 miles north of me, and I'm considering submitting a tender for it. Some idea of it's value, probably as scrap (since that's who I'd probably be bidding against) would be good. FWIW, I personally feel it is historically significant in view of the job it did and worthy of preservation. The system is from the (now closed) Joint US/Australian Space Defense facility at Nurrungar, near Woomera. ('Way out in the desert of northern South Australia.) The entire place is up for sale by tender, houses, buildings, radomes, dishes, power & AC plant etc - plus the IBM Mainframe that did all the data processing. Quote: "The Data Reduction Centre used the IBM 4381 Computer System to process and record infrared data detected by satellite and transmitted by the Satellite Tracking Station (SRS). The raw Satellite data was relayed through a variety of computers and electronic equipment and finally to the DRC's IBM 4381 mainframe computers. The mainframe computers each had dual processors: a support processor and an instruction processor. The processors filtered out any spurious data by comparing the data against pre programmed event criteria. Data that were not needed were discardedwhile data that met certain criteria were formatted and sent to the SOC for further evaluation, this time by human beings." End quote. There are numerous pics of the the system at:- http://www.evansclarke.com.au/megatender/usaf_ibm_4381/index.htm If you click on one of the thumbnails it will show a large version of the pic with a next button to go through all of them. If you want to see the other stuff that's on offer take a look at :- http://www.evansclarke.com.au/megatender/index.html Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 21 13:42:22 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard References: Message-ID: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus> Hi Philip, > BTW : what *is* it about keyboards these days?.... >....none of the keyboards I try have the same hard feel. They >all feel wishy-washy.... They're made to be CHEAP and disposable these days. :-( My favourite keyboards of all are IBM made ones, they have a nice feel and "clicky" keys. In fact, the keyboard I use the most is a 1985 vintage, 84 key, AT keyboard (with the function keys arranged down the left hand end, where they should be). TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 21 19:20:24 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software References: <000601bf7269$f98c0960$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <034a01bf7cdc$eb548f20$0fea93c3@proteus> Hi Richard, > IIRC there's a free/demo package from IVEX that might do, though >I don't know whether it's time limited or not.... Thanks, do you have a web address for IVEX (I'll try the obvious of course)? > What I use for the bread-and-butter stuff myself is the classic >DOS-based OrCAD v3.22 which works, I find, much better than the >more recent GUI-based versions..... I can believe it, I remember downloading one of the very early (if not the first) versions of the GUI port back in my FidoNet days. ISTR I didn't get on with it and stuck with "Easy PC". > If you like the EAGLE stuff well enough, it's not terribly >expensive.... Yes, I do like Eagle quite a lot. The interface is sometimes a bit obscure, but I can cope with that....plus there's a Linux version too (wonder if they do a version for AIX?). The problem is, that even the "standard" version won't allow me to produce a board the size and shape I want to. Considering the cost of the "professional" version, and that I'm doing this purely as a hobby, buying the pro version is not really an option - hence my original enquiry. I can do most everything I want using my existing software, but I don't really want to keep a DOS (or windows) machine running when I switch to Linux. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 21 19:35:50 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: <"Peter Pachla"'s message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2000 02:25:18 -0000"><200001262244218.SM00188@kernst><3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net><048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> <3.0.1.16.20000207100119.3e47fa9a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <034c01bf7cdc$ee604880$0fea93c3@proteus> Hi Joe, > I have both. I like the little one better. The 120 takes up >too much room. The 125 is the same size as the HP 9816 (aka >9000 216.) Interesting, "9816" sounds familiar....are the edges of the unit rounded, if so it sounds like that's my mystery terminal. :-) Actually, are there any sites/collections on the 'net which cover HP equipment? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 21 16:56:59 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Test/Machines available References: Message-ID: <034801bf7cdc$e9ec73a0$0fea93c3@proteus> Hi Mike, >....Need anything bad enough to have it shipped? Possibly, I've been after a few of the plastic case parts for some time - they seem to be rarer than hen's teeth here (or I've been looking in the wrong places). I'll contact you privately off-list. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 21 18:55:30 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software References: <001001bf7258$0bbeb7c0$52e993c3@proteus> <389F0AB4.B0FBC96F@rain.org> Message-ID: <034901bf7cdc$eaa51540$0fea93c3@proteus> Hi, > For small boards, I have a program called CAMDOS that seems to >work quite well.... Sounds interesting, but I really need something with an autorouter. Is "CAMDOS" to be found anywhere on the www, I wouldn't mind having a look at it? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 21 19:54:30 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: Message-ID: <034e01bf7cdc$efb79b20$0fea93c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > Oh, I am not disputing a combined RAM and HP-HIL board.... > > HPIL is _NOT_ HP-HIL. I see, my fault I've been typing "HP-IL" when I meant "HP-HIL" - for some reason I've always called "HP-HIL" "HP-IL"...? > Actually, it is. That 2Mbyte board is the 45890A (512K) + >enough of the 45891A kits....to completely fill it..... Ah, the FAQ didn't mention that. I assumed that you could only fit the one expansion kit to the board. Heck, now I come to think of it that's a pretty dumb assumption....a 768K RAM expansion...? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 21 19:46:37 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: <048101bf7119$3cf56720$91d993c3@proteus> <200002070425.UAA86423@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <034d01bf7cdc$eeee30a0$0fea93c3@proteus> Hi Frank, >....concluded that while the 150 wasn't that bad, touch screens >were not all that they were cracked up to be.... >....it resulted in a sort of fatigue that was called "gorilla >arm".... Quite, I can believe it. I recall messing around with a light pen on my Atari back around 1984, nice idea but my arm would soon start to ache if I used it a lot....so I gave up on it (but then this is the man who hates function keys above the keyboard as he can't operate them with the little finger of his left hand (lazy or what!?)). > Besides, who wants a bunch of fingertip-sized smudges on the >screen? Heh, heh. How did the touch screen operate then, infra red beams? ISTR that I once saw a touch screen (in fact probably the only one I've ever seen) which was some sort of transparent layer attached to the face of the CRT, it looked rather like an anti-glare covering. It was nice as you couldn't smudge it.... :-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 21 19:31:24 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: <200001262244218.SM00188@kernst> <3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net> <048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> <200002070511.VAA87749@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <034b01bf7cdc$ec272160$0fea93c3@proteus> Hi Frank, > Unfortunately I have no idea what kind of terminals HP sell >these days.... The terminals I'm thinking of would be reasonably old. For the life of me I can't recall HP's designation for them, other than it probably began with a "9" and had a suffix of "A". They had rounded edges, and like the HP-150 II allowed the tilt of the screen to be altered. You couldn't really stack anything on top of them since the top wasn't entirely flat - the frontmost couple of inches was angled up slightly. >....I don't think they ever made a 150 that looks like >those.... Maybe I'm thinking of the HP-120/5 then? I'm sure I've seen a photograph of an HP micro which looks almost identical to one of these terminals. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Feb 21 21:26:22 2000 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: IBM 4381 Avbl in South Australia References: <00ea01bf7cdc$fad0cae0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <38B201DE.8896CFE7@halcyon.com> Looks to me like you would have to buy the 3.9 MWatt diesel powerplant to run the IBM 4381 setup. In fact, this whole place looks like it could be a great buy. You could make it into a "Classic Computer Resort", and fly people in for vacations or sabbaticals. (There must be an airfield that goes with it, too? Maybe even a few C-5As?) Maybe we could pool our resources and make a bid on the whole place? Dave Geoff Roberts wrote: > > Anyone able to tell me something about this type of system? It's about 300 > miles north of me, and I'm considering > submitting a tender for it. Some idea of it's value, probably as scrap > (since that's who I'd probably be bidding against) > would be good. FWIW, I personally feel it is historically significant in > view of the job it did and worthy of preservation. > > The system is from the (now closed) Joint US/Australian Space Defense > facility at Nurrungar, near Woomera. > ('Way out in the desert of northern South Australia.) > > The entire place is up for sale by tender, houses, buildings, radomes, > dishes, power & AC plant etc - plus the > IBM Mainframe that did all the data processing. > > Quote: > > "The Data Reduction Centre used the IBM 4381 Computer System to process and > record infrared data detected by satellite and transmitted by the Satellite > Tracking Station (SRS). The raw Satellite data was relayed through a variety > of computers and electronic equipment and finally to the DRC's IBM 4381 > mainframe computers. The mainframe computers each had dual processors: a > support processor and an instruction processor. The processors filtered out > any spurious data by comparing the data against pre programmed event > criteria. Data that were not needed were discardedwhile data that met > certain criteria were formatted and sent to the SOC for further evaluation, > this time by human beings." > > End quote. > > There are numerous pics of the the system at:- > http://www.evansclarke.com.au/megatender/usaf_ibm_4381/index.htm > > If you click on one of the thumbnails it will show a large version of the > pic with a next button to go through all of them. > > If you want to see the other stuff that's on offer take a look at :- > http://www.evansclarke.com.au/megatender/index.html > > Cheers > > Geoff Roberts > Computer Systems Manager > Saint Mark's College > Port Pirie, South Australia. > Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au > netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au > ICQ #: 1970476 From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon Feb 21 21:30:40 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus>; from Peter Pachla on Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:42:22PM -0000 References: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus> Message-ID: <20000221203040.J2874@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:42:22PM -0000, Peter Pachla wrote: > My favourite keyboards of all are IBM made ones, they have a nice feel and > "clicky" keys. In fact, the keyboard I use the most is a 1985 vintage, 84 > key, AT keyboard (with the function keys arranged down the left hand end, > where they should be). Me too but I like the function keys along the top. No point in having a preference that's so hard to find in modern keyboards; sometimes I get stuck using other types besides my IBM's (although I do have extras so I can use one at work and one at every extra computer around the house). Now that we are using Sun Ultra 5's at work though, it's really annoying in that the caps lock and control are reversed, and backspace is one row down where the backslash is on my IBM. Those choices make more sense from an ergonmics point of view but I wish I could be more consistent. Maybe have to see about getting Linux to swap them for me at home. There is an adapter for something like $70 that lets you hook up a PC keyboard to a Sun but that's kindof spendy. Makes me wonder if one couldn't program up a PIC to be a universal keyboard adapter - XT, AT, Sun and ADB. (and a few others people will think of a need for, I'm sure...at least 3 of the above use TTL signalling, but I'm not sure about ADB) The modern Sun keyboards are also too mushy. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From dburrows at netpath.net Mon Feb 21 21:25:06 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: T.D. Systems TDL-12 Message-ID: <03fb01bf7ce4$c8b81c40$a652e780@L166> Yes it is SCSI. I have a little info I will try to dig up for you. They will do MSCP and a few other emulation's. (RL also IIRC) It all depends on the PAL that is installed. Look for what is stamped on the PAL. Dan -----Original Message----- From: jeff.kaneko@juno.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 2:36 PM Subject: T.D. Systems TDL-12 > >Guys: > >Anybody know what this is? I'm almost certain it is a >Q-BUS SCSI adaptor, but is it for disk, tape, or ??? > >Is is MSCP? Does it emulate RK-0x's, or what? > > > >Thanks! > > >Jeff >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Feb 21 21:34:01 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard Message-ID: <200002220334.WAA03089@world.std.com> =:The VT100 keyboard mechanism was used on all sorts of machines (or =: =:VT100 =:Some HP terminals =:TRS-80 Model 1 (older version keyboard) =:Zenith/Heathkit Z19/H88/H89/Z90 =:TI 99/4a (I think) Yes on the TI99/4a Also kaypro, some not all I have two different keyboards. NS* advantage Haziltine 1500 and 1400 series. and like you said a who raft of others. Allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Feb 21 21:49:02 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Amiga and BSD o/s Message-ID: <20000222034902.26409.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Hello, all you guys out there > > I'm wanting to try out one (or both) of Open BSD and NetBSD on my lil' ol' > Amiga -- I really need someone who has gone through the teething process of > formatting drives and instaling necessary files, etc. I haven't installed either on an Amiga myself, but I would recommend Open BSD (http://www.openbsd.org/amiga.html) for one important reason: drivers for my card, the GG2 Bus+ Zorro-to-ISA bridge, are included! Completely self- serving, I know, but there it is. For the curious Amiga owner, the GG2 Bus+ web page is at http://penguincentral.com/GG2/ -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Feb 21 22:08:41 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: How many Vaxes? Message-ID: <20000222040841.17216.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dan Kolb > To: > Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2000 5:20 > Subject: Re: How many Vaxes? > > > On a semi-related note, what sort of Vaxen do people on this list My list of personal VAXen: 1 MicroVAX-II in BA-123 w/9MB & RD54 (154MB), TQK50 and TU80 (Dilog controller), SRC COMBOARD-Q, DZV-11, uninstalled KDA50, running VMS 6.1 1 MicroVAX-II in BA-23 w/9MB & RD54, KDA50, DZV-11 and DEQNA, running VMS 5.5 1 MicroVAX-I in BA-23 w/4Mb & RD52, DZV-11 running MicroVMS 4.2 1 MicroVAX-I parts machine 1 VAX 8300 w/16Mb & RA81 (450Mb), 3rd party SDI-to-ESDI bridge w/two 1.2GB ESDI disks, KDB50, unresponsive DEBNT (cable problems?) running VMS 5.5 1 MicroVAX 2000 w/10Mb? & RD54, DHT32 8-port expander, TK50Z-FA 1 MicroVAX 2000 untested w/external RD54 box 3 VAXstation 2000 untested w/mice, keyboards, mono monitors. 1 VAX-11/750 w/8Mb & RA81 w/DMF-32, Massbus interface (TU78 is 220V and was not moved with CPU), SI9900 disk interface w/Fuji 160Mb+Eagle disks, multiple Emulex 16-port serial cards, UDA-50, 56K DEC sync card for DDCMP, RUX50 interface, TU80 interface, LP11 interface, s/n BT000354, running VMS 4.5 1 VAX-11/750 w/14Mb, multiple DZ-11, TS-11 controller, Massbus controller, SI 9900 controller, Fuji Eagles and RM03s not moved with CPU due to transportation problems. 1 VAX-11/730 w/5Mb & RB80 (121Mb), DMF-32, VMS 5.4 With all of that, only one MicroVAX-II, one MicroVAX 2000 and the VAX 8300 have been powered on in the past year. The Unibus VAXen are in deep storage. On the way is a VAXstation 3100-90 w/64MB and 1.5GB disk, TLZ30 and TK50Z-GA, but no ETA as of yet. :-( -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From marvin at rain.org Sun Feb 20 22:54:05 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Simon Construction References: <20000222040841.17216.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38B0C4ED.C6513E79@rain.org> Just curious how many, if any, people are planning on building the Simon relay computer. It seems like a rather interesting project and I am starting to collect the parts. It should be a neat project for the next VCF! From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Feb 21 23:19:16 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: IBM 4381 Avbl in South Australia References: <00ea01bf7cdc$fad0cae0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> <38B201DE.8896CFE7@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <012e01bf7cf4$5dcddc20$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: David C. Jenner To: Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2000 1:56 Subject: Re: IBM 4381 Avbl in South Australia > Looks to me like you would have to buy the 3.9 MWatt diesel powerplant > to run the IBM 4381 setup. ROFL. Very likely. The power plant also ran the HUGE airconditioning systems, not just for the computers, but the radomes and other buildings as well. I have no idea how much power the computers would have drawn, but I would imagine it was considerable. To run it elsewhere would require it to be downsized somewhat I would imagine. > In fact, this whole place looks like it could be a great buy. You could > make it into a "Classic Computer Resort", and fly people in for vacations > or sabbaticals. Well, the real estate would probably be cheap, but I think it's still part of the Woomera Restricted Area. Crown land. As for the rest? Interesting concept, but there's not a lot there except desert and the old rocket range. (Which is supposed to be being taken over to launch commercial satellites in conjunction with the Russians(?)) The communal canteen/restaurant at Woomera is still called the ELDO Mess. (European Launcher Development Organisation) 45C+ in summer, -5C overnight in Winter. < 5" rain per annum. Most of that in summer thunderstorms, plus tropical rain depressions from collapsed cyclones in the NW of Australia that drift down south far enough. (Happening now, actually) Relative humidity usually around 1%. Hang your washing on the line, by the time you've finished, it's ready to bring in. Bone dry & rock hard. (Well, it's the dryest state of the dryest continent on Earth after all) I used to live in Leigh Creek (open cut brown coal mine for the power stations at Port Augusta 250 miles south) about 85 miles due east of Woomera on the other side of Lake Torrens. (Salt pan - only a lake every few years) > (There must be an airfield that goes with it, too? Yes. Big sealed runway/apron. > Maybe even a few C-5As?) Unfortunately, no. (some TALU acft loading gear was in the tender stuff, though it has now been withdrawn from sale) It WAS served by USAF C141 Starlifters. I used to work them on VHF when I was at Leigh Creek FS. (it was our airspace, there is a tower at Woomera but it is only manned if the RAAF have an exercise on there. (About as often as total eclipses.) Airspace belongs to Adelaide now, since Leigh Creek FS closed down.) MAC & a 5 digit number were the callsigns. I remember they had a pavement dispensation to land at Woomera before they beefed up the pavement a bit. Long strip anyway. The govt stashed it's ex-RAAF Mirage III's there in mothballs before they sold them to Pakistan. (Same climate as Davis-Monthan) > Maybe we could pool our resources and make a bid on the whole place? It'd be interesting to see what sells for how much. Mining companies will snap up the power plant and much of the buildings I'd say. Doubtful about the chiller plant, though it would be capable of doing an entire small town if you wanted to. (Gove in the NT is like that - central airconditioning for the whole town - piped through to your house for a monthly fee - works well.) (Western Mining Corporation has a VERY big Uranium mine about 90 miles north at a place called Roxby Downs (originally Olympic Dam). Big town now. The rest may be hard to unload, partly because of WHERE it is. The market for gigantic Radomes and in outback Australia would seem to be rather small, but you never know. The houses should go pretty well, the ones from Leigh Creek got sold and trucked down south. Cost a bit, but since the houses went for around $15-20k each, add about $3-5k for the move and you saved about $20k on the price of a new one on your site. These will probably go for much the same price I imagine. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Feb 21 23:26:26 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Simon Construction In-Reply-To: <38B0C4ED.C6513E79@rain.org> Message-ID: Marvin: If you have any Sense of Adventure, you might consider using electrical distribution substation switchgear for the logic. It would take up a little more space (maybe two acres) and use more power, but... think of the kewl noise it would make! The control panel would be interesting, too.. if you continued the genre of the 'active logic'. Cheers C. P. Steinmetz From nerdware at laidbak.com Mon Feb 21 23:39:57 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <20000221203040.J2874@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> References: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus>; from Peter Pachla on Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:42:22PM -0000 Message-ID: <200002220540.XAA08286@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:30:40 -0700 From: "Shawn T. Rutledge" To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:42:22PM -0000, Peter Pachla wrote: > > My favourite keyboards of all are IBM made ones, they have a nice feel > > and "clicky" keys. In fact, the keyboard I use the most is a 1985 > > vintage, 84 key, AT keyboard (with the function keys arranged down the > > left hand end, where they should be). > > Me too but I like the function keys along the top. No point in having a > preference that's so hard to find in modern keyboards; sometimes I get > stuck using other types besides my IBM's (although I do have extras so I > can use one at work and one at every extra computer around the house). > I agree on the IBM keyboards. I'm a Mac guy, but I also use wintel boxen and nothing feels like a good, solid, cast-metal-frame IBM keyboard. I've gotten used to Evilsoft Naturals, but really wish they'd use the same keyswitch mechanism that IBM used instead of the rubber dome thingy. I did CAD for 5 years, and the older program we used before AutoCAD had most of the major editing functions mapped to fn keys. My keyboard had them arranged on the left, and I became very proficient that way. My left hand knew what functions I needed without even looking, and I could invoke most drawing commands from the command line. Took me quite a while to untrain my hand when we switched to AutoCAD and I couldn't replilcate the mappings. Right now, I'm using a good ol' IBM clicker as a remote control for my Sony Minidisc deck here in my little studio. Sony put a PS/2 plug on the front for titling and remote control functions, evidently after the realization that most guys hacked their own plug in anyway..... And for laptops, my vote is for ThinkPads. The keyboard on the NEC Versa 4230 I used to used was probably the worst one ever made. Almost made typing on an Atari 400 fun......my ThinkPad 760xl has a crisp, clean, postive feel to it. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From nerdware at laidbak.com Mon Feb 21 23:44:08 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200002220544.XAA08315@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:17:16 -0800 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > The other real popular Apple keyboard seems to be the 'adjustable' one. > I've got to admit to being rather partial to the old tiny ADB keyboard for > the Apple //gs, although since I got one, it's never been on a //gs :^) > Works great for Mac's though! > > Zane Amen! Mine is plugged into my PM 9500 right now, and I love the feel. Plus, it's just so darn cute.... :o) Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Feb 21 23:59:27 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: HP9114B battery pack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000222005927.00f30300@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 12:05 AM 02/22/2000 +0000, you wrote: >I've got a (non-working) HP9114B HPIL disk drive on the bench at the >moment. The first few problems seem to be related to the battery pack. >HP consider this to be a non-serviceable item, so there's no informtion >available. Needless to say I disagree, and intend to repair it. Good. >Firstly the battery itself. The original one is missing, but I think it's >some kind of sealed lead acid unit, 6V at about 2.5Ah. The largest >'Dryfit' that I can get that will fit in the housing is the 1.2Ah one. I >guess this will work but will give me short battery life. The original packs carried the Panasonic LCR-226P, 6V, 2.4AH, which are not produced anymore. However, the LCR-062R4PU has the same form factor and capacity, and can still be obtained. I bought several at Digikey a couple of years ago. The only difference is in the location and orientation of the terminals, but bending them a little is enough for the battery to fit in the pack. By the way, I also used some of these to replace the larger 3.2AH cells in my HP3421's. Unfortunately, I could not find any modern battery with the same form factor of the original LCR-306P. >However, it appears that 3 off 2.5Ah Cyclon cells would fit in the >housing. Has this ever been tried, and does the HP charger PCB charge >these correctly without damage? The 1.5 V difference is big enough that the charger may actually damage them. Low duty lead-acid batteries are supposed to be charged using constant voltage (with initial current limiting, one amp for the ones in question). For standby use the charging voltage for these is 6.9V; for cycle use the charging voltage is 7.3V . Both are way too high for a 4.5V nominal pack. And I think that 4.5V is probably too low for the hp9114. I have two HP9114's, an "A" version and a "B" version. The charge circuits are different. The pack in the "A" version is nothing more than a series NPN/Zenner base voltage reference plus a fuse in series with the 9114A. The one in the 9114B does have the LM311, a 79L05, a 2N3906 and a 6102N/6240 marked "Q2", plus a couple zenners, an 1N4004 and other resistors/caps. Q2 could also be an SCR (not the first time one would have shown up in a charger).... in fact, I have just taken some readings and it definitely is not a bipolar transistor. It's looking more like an SCR. The gate would be the pin farthest from the board edge. And this charger is functional. Sorry, I don't know what a proper replacement would be, but I think that your Q2 might actually be good (it's hard to blow up an SCR with a source that has an internal impedance as high as that in a 82059 xformer). >Secondly, I have a fault on the charger PCB. This is a fairly simple >circuit (based round an LM311 comparator) to rapidly charge the battery >when it's flat and thento fall back to a trickle charge when the battery >voltage rises. > >The switchover seems to be controlled by a 3 terminal component indicated >as 'Q2' on the PCB. The markings on the device are : > >6142N >M (Motorola logo) >6240 > >I assume it's an NPN power transistor, in which case it's defective as >the collector-base junction is open. But I can't find 2N6240 or 2N6142 in >_any_ databook or catalogue here (assuming that's what it really is). > >Does anyone know what this component is, and does anyone know a suitable >replacement? > >-tony From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Feb 22 00:10:52 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: T.D. Systems TDL-12 Message-ID: <20000222.001327.204.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> The one removable PAL says TDL-13 . . . On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:25:06 -0500 "Daniel T. Burrows" writes: >Yes it is SCSI. I have a little info I will try to dig up for you. >They >will do MSCP and a few other emulation's. (RL also IIRC) It all >depends on >the PAL that is installed. Look for what is stamped on the PAL. >Dan >-----Original Message----- >From: jeff.kaneko@juno.com >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 2:36 PM >Subject: T.D. Systems TDL-12 > > >> >>Guys: >> >>Anybody know what this is? I'm almost certain it is a >>Q-BUS SCSI adaptor, but is it for disk, tape, or ??? >> >>Is is MSCP? Does it emulate RK-0x's, or what? ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From dastar at siconic.com Tue Feb 22 02:46:07 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: VCF 1.0e - VCF Europa in Munich, Germany! Message-ID: I'm very proud to announce the first version of the Vintage Computer Festival in Europe! VCF 1.0e is scheduled for April 29-30 in Munich, Germany. Our beloved Hans Franke is the primary organizer of the event. I will be attending the event as well so I look forward to (hopefully) meeting a lot of you European computer collectors. The initial web site for VCF 1.0e is up but is currently only implemented in German. Complain to Hans. http://www.vintage.org/europa I hope Hans will find the time in his busy schedule to translate the site to about 7 other languages, but maybe someone can help him out. I think you silly Europeans should just adopt English already but I guess that's a flame war waiting to explode so I won't say anything (ooops :) Please send all flames and offers of assistance to Hans Franke at . Unfortunately I know little about the event with regards to location, admission, etc. Hans has been doing all of the organization and we haven't been coordinating very well. All that information is on the website but I can't read much German yet unfortunately. My end of the bargain is to learn German fluently enough to give a 45 minute talk at the event. So at some point I should be able to read the pages. For now I remain an Ugly American. Oh well. I hope to see you there! It will be a BLAST! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From kheydon at Solidworks.com Tue Feb 22 03:30:20 2000 From: kheydon at Solidworks.com (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Wang 2200SVP Available in the UK. Message-ID: <5936ED1A3F41D311BDC60090278874660C76EB@MSX102> If anybody is interested in this then contact Robert directly... > From: rib@cannon-co.freeserve.co.uk> > > I have an ancient system dating from circa 1980. It uses the old 8" > floppy disks. it is quite heavy and bulky but would fit into an estate > car. It is probably now quite rare but I want to get rid of it (free > of charge) to anyone who is prepared to pick it from my address in > Kent. The monitor has packed up but the disk drive/ CPU is working. > I shall dump it unless you know of anyone who might have it. > > Robert Cannon -- Kevan From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Feb 22 05:06:09 2000 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: IBM 3363 optical drive Technical Reference Manual wanted Message-ID: <8025688D.003CE9F7.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > As the subject says, I would like to get hold of a Technical Reference Manual > for the IBM 3363 WORM drive. > > Any ideas where I might find one? (And an ISA adapter card for the 3363 too.) I thought I had this manual, but alas, no luck. What I have is the Guide to Operations. A pretty lusing manual, all told, but there is some useful info to be gleaned, like the switch settings for the ISA card. (I don't have the card - sorry). The manual also comes with about half a dozen disks of drivers and software - I think it's Drivers for ISA on 5.25 in; drivers for ISA on 3.5 in; and drivers for microchannel on 3.5in - two disks each or thereabouts. Details of the utility programs can be found in the manual. I haven't read it in detail, so I don't know how good an API you get with this. If you want this, shipping to USA is between 8 and 9 dollars (haven't got an exact figure - I just shoved the manual and one Jiffy bag on the scales in the post room), so I'll send it for $10 US. If you are not as far away from the UK as that, or want me to send it without the binder (a shame, since this is original and in good condition), the price can come down. Please e-mail me privately if you want this, and we can exchange addresses, etc. Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From Jgzabol at aol.com Tue Feb 22 05:28:51 2000 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: VCF 1.0e - VCF Europa in Munich, Germany! Message-ID: For those of you who might be planning a more extended trip to Germany: There is also an International Conference on the History of Computing Heinz Nixdorf Museums-Forum, Paderborn, Germany April 5-7 http://www.hnf.de/ICHC2000/ which will focus on Mapping the History of Computing: Software Issues We surely could also provide a list of other interesting classiccmp-style places to visit, if there were any interest ... just to keep anyone busy during April. John G. Zabolitzky Munich, Germany From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Feb 22 06:37:09 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: HP9114B battery pack In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000222005927.00f30300@postoffice3.mail.cornell. edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000222073709.0078f944@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> I know, bad form to reply to my own post, but I just discovered that my brain was fried last night :-) At 12:59 AM 02/22/2000 -0500, you wrote: >>However, it appears that 3 off 2.5Ah Cyclon cells would fit in the >>housing. Has this ever been tried, and does the HP charger PCB charge >>these correctly without damage? > >The 1.5 V difference is big enough that the charger may actually >damage them. Low duty lead-acid batteries are supposed >to be charged using constant voltage (with initial current limiting, >one amp for the ones in question). For standby use the charging >voltage for these is 6.9V; for cycle use the charging voltage >is 7.3V . Both are way too high for a 4.5V nominal pack. And >I think that 4.5V is probably too low for the hp9114. It should work -- 3 cyclon cells = 6V, the required nominal voltage. But I would still try to get the LCR062R4PU's. Carlos. From Mzthompson at aol.com Tue Feb 22 07:24:19 2000 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Sams Photofacts (Was: Re: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors?) Message-ID: <5f.1bc676d.25e3e803@aol.com> John Wilson wrote: > BTW, do Sams Photofacts still exist, and if so can they be ordered on-line? > Our old VCR has been getting picky about what channels it will and won't > receive, but I'm probably too dense to repair a tuner even *with* schematics, > let alone without. But the only real electronics shop in the area can't get > Photofacts any more... I honestly don't know it they do exist anymore, haven't had a need in years. The last time I saw a current Photofact, it was nothing more than a reprint of the manufacturer's material. It was not the Photofacts of old so I just sort of forgot about them. I think I bought my last one aroung 1976. It so happens that my first electronics job was with Sams PhotoFacts. That was about 30 years ago. At that time they actually acquired one of each model and tore it down to produce the photos and schematics. My job consisted of unpacking the TV, then setting it up with a mess of sensors attached to critical components to measure various parameters. I also disassembled the TV and wrote the disassembly instructions, did the chassis overview drawing, and chassis overview photos calling out the major controls and components. After that the cabinet and CRT were stored and the chassis sent down the 'line' for schematics to be drawn and parts lists produced. That process took 6-8 weeks. The fun part was after that, the set had to be reassembled and restored to working order. During the time on the line, the chassis would be handled by dozens, dropped, kicked, spilled on, and who knows what else. It was a nightmare sometimes to get a set working again, but I learned a lot. Fortunately, it was not my job to reassemble all of them, just something we all did when lacking for something to do or in need of a change. Some of the perks were nice, like a free subscription to Photofact of the Month. The was a file room where 50 or so copies of each individual Photofact were archived. You were free to go there and pull anything you needed. If it was not there, then tell the secretary and she would order it from other archives. One time I needed a Photofact for what at the time was considered an antique radio. I told the secretary and the next day she brought the complete folder, #47 as I recall. I have long since forgot the original issue date on that one. The other neat thing was the quarterly employee book sale. Needless to say, I have my share of Sams books, the paperbacks all bought for a quarter each. It pained me in later years to have to pay full price. I remember even back then that they were cutting back there 'coverage' of things like clock radios and the less expensive TV's. I guess you can call it the dawn of the age of 'discarding'. So I have to wonder what kind of coverage they provided for VCR's. Forgive me, John (et al), for not really answering your question. I had not even though about Sams in years and your posting prompted me to share. Excuse the rambling about old times. Mike From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 22 07:50:42 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: HP 9816 Re: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <034c01bf7cdc$ee604880$0fea93c3@proteus> References: <"Peter Pachla"'s message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2000 02:25:18 -0000"> <200001262244218.SM00188@kernst> <3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net> <048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> <3.0.1.16.20000207100119.3e47fa9a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000222085042.3c0f02b0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:35 AM 2/22/00 -0000, you wrote: >Hi Joe, > > > I have both. I like the little one better. The 120 takes up > >too much room. The 125 is the same size as the HP 9816 (aka > >9000 216.) > >Interesting, "9816" sounds familiar....are the edges of the unit rounded, if >so it sounds like that's my mystery terminal. :-) Take a look at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/hp9816.jpg". That's a 9816 sitting on top of a HP 9121 or 9122 disk drive. The HP 125 looks exactly the same. The keyboard shown in the picture is the original one for the 9816. From what I've seen, most people paid extra and got the larger "Nimetz" keyboard. The original keyboards are sort of hard to come by. > >Actually, are there any sites/collections on the 'net which cover HP >equipment? I have some info at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/hpdcalc.htm". Joe > > > TTFN - Pete. > >-- >Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. >Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > >peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk >-- > > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Feb 22 08:32:37 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: VCF 1.0e - VCF Europa in Munich, Germany! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002221334.OAA26005@mail2.siemens.de> > For those of you who might be planning a more extended trip to Germany: > There is also an > International Conference on the History of Computing > Heinz Nixdorf Museums-Forum, Paderborn, Germany > April 5-7 > http://www.hnf.de/ICHC2000/ > which will focus on > Mapping the History of Computing: Software Issues Thank you John, I'll just put it up onto the VCFe pages > We surely could also provide a list of other interesting classiccmp-style > places to visit, if there were any interest ... just to keep anyone busy > during April. Well, at least of that ... And I have to thank Sallam for puting up the pages. Just, due some trans atlantic turbulences the updated pages (including the first English page - I hate when pages get published - people start to ask more questions ... Life could be so beautiful if we could ignore the user :) are at the moment at http://www.homecomputer.de/VCfe (Also a thank you to Stefan Walgenbach for puting up the mirror) More to come Hans -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 22 07:45:42 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Simon Construction In-Reply-To: <38B0C4ED.C6513E79@rain.org> Message-ID: I don't know if I'd build it but I'm curious to see the design though. Allison On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Marvin wrote: > > Just curious how many, if any, people are planning on building the Simon > relay computer. It seems like a rather interesting project and I am starting > to collect the parts. It should be a neat project for the next VCF! > From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Feb 22 08:27:38 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? References: Message-ID: <001e01bf7d42$8ddf5300$59eb93c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > In my experience, VT3xx terminals are known for eating flyback > transformers.... Good oh, that fills me with confidence - I just picked up another VT3xx (a 340) along with another MicroVAX II at the weekend. BTW I have a VT330 (or possibly a 320) which won't power up properly. When I power it up I hear a click from the sounder in the keyboard and the PSU shuts down, the it tried to power up again, clicks, powers down, etc etc.... Have you ever come across such a problem before? > I'd start by cleaning the screen. Yes, you can laugh, but it caught >me once, on a VT100.... Ditto, same thing caught me out a couple of times in the past. It's ALWAYS worth giving the screen a clean in these circumstances. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Feb 22 08:37:03 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: Message-ID: <001f01bf7d42$8f382c40$59eb93c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > To be exact, I've seen _one_ HP150-II with the touchscreen >-- mine.... Heh, to be honest I've only seen around 5 of the things myself....not exactly a large sample. :-) >....The touchscreen is built into the CRT bezel, so you'd >have to have the plain bezel to replace it if you removed >the touchscreen. Ah, I wasn't aware of that. I'd assumed it clipped on over the existing bezel in some manner, hence making it easily removable. > The hard disk is a GPIB unit, like the floppy drives. There are >various models that will work.... >....FWIW, I have 2 9133s and a 9154 on my 150-II. Oh, and a couple >of 9142 QIC tape drives. I'll have to keep my eyes open now rally season is starting again. I used to see a lot of HP drive boxes on sale at them, during the last few years the supply seems to have dried up somewhat....always the way, you see lots, but when you actually want one.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue Feb 22 09:01:11 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: How many Vaxes? References: <20000222040841.17216.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38B2A4B7.48B50266@arrl.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Dan Kolb > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2000 5:20 > > Subject: Re: How many Vaxes? > > > > > On a semi-related note, what sort of Vaxen do people on this list At Work: (3) VAX 11/785's. One running a MD80 simulator, 2 are spares. My modest home collection: MicroVaxII, BA123. Trying to accumulate necessary parts for installation of RA73s. MicroVaxIII+, KA655 , BA213. Was a DECsystem5500 box, DSSI equipped; this is my never-ending-project. MicroVax3100/10 VAXstation 3100/m38 VAXstation 3100/m76 VAXstation 4000/VLC VAXstation 4000/60 All are/will be VMS machines, though would like to get some flavor of UNIX on one of these. My VAX population will soon take a drastic decrease as I just don't have the time to devote to hobby. With change of season, time-on-hobby will decrease further as time-on-tractor increases. Cheers, Nick From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 09:36:01 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: How many Vaxes? Message-ID: <20000222153601.19151.qmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Nick Oliviero wrote: > My modest home collection: > MicroVaxII, BA123. Trying to accumulate necessary parts for installation > of RA73s. Last summer I receieved a wad of SDI parts including at least one KDA-50, two RA70s and a front panel for the drives. I'm hoping to somehow stuff them into my BA123 for the uVAX-II. I plan to use this machine to begin to process my wad of 9-track tapes (at least the 1600bpi ones - I do not own a 6250 bpi drive) > My VAX population will soon take a drastic decrease as I just don't > have the time to devote to hobby. With change of season, time-on-hobby > will decrease further as time-on-tractor increases. I heard that. I have a 1949 Ford 8N, myself. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From dburrows at netpath.net Tue Feb 22 10:22:01 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: T.D. Systems TDL-12 Message-ID: <055201bf7d51$0b898c90$a652e780@L166> Good - That is the only one I have info on that is handy. Both jumpers out (A&B) it will respond at CSR174420 vec164 The alternate add is CSR 174400 CSR 160 with Jumper A installed. I have had one for some time but have not taken the time to play with it. It is SCSI but it responds at an RL add. Dan >The one removable PAL says TDL-13 . . . > >On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:25:06 -0500 "Daniel T. Burrows" > writes: >>Yes it is SCSI. I have a little info I will try to dig up for you. >>They >>will do MSCP and a few other emulation's. (RL also IIRC) It all >>depends on >>the PAL that is installed. Look for what is stamped on the PAL. >>Dan From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Feb 22 11:23:26 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: T.D. Systems TDL-12 Message-ID: <20000222.112326.-292011.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:22:01 -0500 "Daniel T. Burrows" writes: > Good - That is the only one I have info on that is handy. Both > jumpers out (A&B) it will respond at CSR174420 vec164 The alternate add is CSR > 174400 CSR 160 with Jumper A installed. > I have had one for some time but have not taken the time to play with it. > It is SCSI but it responds at an RL add. Okay, so it emulates an RL-0x drive then. If you wanted to use an entire SCSI device as a single volume, though, you'd need a special driver for O/S you're using, right? Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From kla at helios.augustana.edu Tue Feb 22 11:48:22 2000 From: kla at helios.augustana.edu (Kevin L. Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:07 2005 Subject: Keyboards / Simon relay computer? Message-ID: A quick statement and a question: (1) I seem to recall that the keyboard used on the original Kaypro luggable computer was labeled as the "IBM Selectric" keyboard. I had been a user of the IBM Selectric typewriter at the time of using my first Kaypro computer, and recall the look and feel to be identical (or at least similar enough) in the key shapes and layout. When you folks mention the VT100 keyboard, you are talking about a different animal, right? (Also a nice keyboard....) (2) Would someone please repost the URL for the Simon relay computer. Thanks. Cheers. Kevin Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent the administration of Augustana College. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Feb 22 17:22:20 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Sams Photofacts Message-ID: I have noticed that the earlier Sams are available now on CD-ROM. Don't remember if they are direct from Howard Sams or through third-party. I'm lucky, as there are complete libraries of Photofacts available at both the downtown KC library and in Independence. Even had them in Tacoma, WA so check your local library for availability. Might be able to get them through interlibrary loan. Gary Hildebrand Amigaphile and boatanchor collector From elvey at hal.com Tue Feb 22 12:44:32 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Sams Photofacts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002221844.KAA18191@civic.hal.com> Gary Hildebrand wrote: > I have noticed that the earlier Sams are available now on CD-ROM. Don't > remember if they are direct from Howard Sams or through third-party. > > I'm lucky, as there are complete libraries of Photofacts available at both > the downtown KC library and in Independence. Even had them in Tacoma, WA so > check your local library for availability. Might be able to get them > through interlibrary loan. > > Gary Hildebrand > Amigaphile and boatanchor collector Hi Sam's are still there: http://www.hwsams.com/tech_prod_div.html Dwight From Innfogra at aol.com Tue Feb 22 12:59:09 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Simon Construction Message-ID: In a message dated 2/21/2000 9:33:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, jpl15@netcom.com writes: > If you have any Sense of Adventure, you might consider using > electrical distribution substation switchgear for the logic. It > would take up a little more space (maybe two acres) and use more > power, but... think of the kewl noise it would make! > My scrapper has been buying all of the electrical scrap from BPA (Bonneville Power Administration) in Vancouver, Washington for the last 10 years. If someone wanted to use electrical distribution substation switchgear for the logic it could be possible. He is shipping a container of it this week. Any interest? Paxton From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Feb 22 13:04:09 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Information still needed for Infotron IF/65 Development System II for 65XX microprocessors and CUBIT EPROM Programming board - AIM-65 or KIM ? Message-ID: <002201bf7d67$996b1ae0$89e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Hello to all, I'm still looking for information for these items: Firstly, an Infotron IF/65 Development System II. It appears to connect via RS-232 to a dumb terminal for its output of such things as address and data, and perhaps input of some parameters such as uP clock rate; baud rate is selectable from a thumbwheel. This system also appears to have the capability of single stepping the program contained in the device in the ZIF. It has a 28 pin ZIF socket for the targets EPROM/PROM/ROM. There is a standard ribbon cable that connects to a pod, and the pod has a braided ribbon cable that terminates at a 40 pin dip header, most likely to attach to the target in place of the uP. Trap conditions are selectable via four 0 to F thumbwheels, and conditions to be triggered on can be selected as memory data read, memory data written, and/or op-code. Any information would be greatly appreciated, a source of a manual or instructions for use would be fantastic. This equipment can be viewed at http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/Pics/infotron.gif and secondly: A CUBIT EPROM programming board for the AIM-65. It is not an RM65 board, the connector will plug right onto the expansion connector on an AIM, but can also be attached with an appropriate 1-to-1 ribbon cable. Here is the description: Measures 4-7/16 (4.4375)inches wide by 6-1/2 (6.5) inches long, including edge connector, lengthwise insertion. 44 pin gold plated edge connector with a 44 pin socket mounted immediately behind and parallel to the edge connector, on the component side of the PCB. 24 pin ZIF connector in the upper LH corner, viewing with the edge connector facing me (all descriptions below assume this position). 10 position DIP switch immediately to the right of the ZIF socket (no labeling), and another 10 position dip switch about halfway up the RHS, labeled 1 to 7 and B, C, D (probably address selection since one row of pins is all tied common and most of the pins on the other side of it go to a 74LS154). One LED, immediately to the right of the first 10 position DIP switch mentioned above, at the edge of the board. Two trimpots about center of the far edge of the board, to the right of the LED. Two jumper blocks, one with 2 pins, labeled W1, and one with 3 pins, labeled RO and RA. Two Toshiba 24 pin TMM2016P-1 RAMs left of center in second row of DIPs on the board. One 2516-45 EPROM to the left of the RAMS, with a label on top "6517A". On the solder side the only markings (in etch) are CUBIT INC, 1981 and the numbers 10362 and 6583. Most of the date codes on the ICs are between 8037 and 8203. There is no other model number, manufacturer, or other ID marking on this board. This programmer can be viewed at http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/Pics/cubit.jpg Thanks, Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Feb 22 10:55:05 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard References: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus>; from Peter Pachla on Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:42:22PM -0000 <200002220540.XAA08286@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <018a01bf7d69$4b358520$59eb93c3@proteus> Hi Paul, >....I'm a Mac guy, but I also use wintel boxen and nothing feels >like a good, solid, cast-metal-frame IBM keyboard.... Actually, now you mention it, I really liked the old keyboards which Apple shipped with the Mac Plus and earlier. The only criticism I'd level at them would be that they don't "click" and the key travel is a bit long. But nice nevertheless. And one of the worst keyboards I've ever used is the standard ADB keyboard I got with my "Classic II". "Yuck" just doesn't cover it....I can see why people quickly switched to the extended keyboards. >....My left hand knew what functions I needed without even >looking.... Absolutely, I can operate the function keys on my 84 key keyboard with my left hand without even thinking about it. With them arranged along the top I have to make a concious decision to use the apt key, and then take my hand off the main part of the keyboard to operate the keys....which REALLY disturbs my rhythm when I'm using the machine. I also dislike IBM's (and most other manufacturer's) practice of putting the "Caps Lock" key where "Ctrl" belongs on these keyboards - personally, I can live without "Caps Lock" at all thankyou. Not to mention their insistance on putting "Esc" on the same row as the "F" keys, sigh, "Esc" lives next to the "1" key or, at worst, in the top left corner of the numeric keypad.... :-( Not that I'm fussy or anything. ;-) > And for laptops, my vote is for ThinkPads.... I've not used very many laptop keyboards. I do like the keyboard on my Toshiba T3100SX (for which I need a working power controller PCB) and the one on the Tandy 1400LT I used to own was "OK". >....The keyboard on the NEC Versa 4230 I used to used was >probably the worst one ever made.... My vote would go for the keyboard on my Olivetti M15....foul, the only good thing about it is that you can take it out of the main unit and position it where/how you like. >....Almost made typing on an Atari 400 fun.... Yes, less than a month after I got it my Atari 400 was sporting an "InHome" replacement keyboard....and it still works fine today (despite having coffee spilt in it some 14 years ago). TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Feb 22 11:25:03 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: HP 9816 Re: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: <"Peter Pachla"'s message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2000 02:25:18 -0000"><200001262244218.SM00188@kernst><3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net><048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus><3.0.1.16.20000207100119.3e47fa9a@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.20000222085042.3c0f02b0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <018b01bf7d69$4c282280$59eb93c3@proteus> Hi Joe, > Take a look at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/hp9816.jpg.... >That's a 9816 sitting on top of a HP 9121 or 9122 disk drive.... Thanks, I'll have a look at that (and the rest of your HP pages). TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From aek at spies.com Tue Feb 22 13:37:30 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Information still needed for Infotron IF/65 Development System II for 65XX microprocessors and CUBIT EPROM Programming board - AIM-65 or KIM ? Message-ID: <200002221937.LAA30583@spies.com> Infotron made intellegent multiplexers, this might be a test set for that. They also made erzatz DH-11's a LONG time ago. From donm at cts.com Tue Feb 22 13:49:23 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Keyboards / Simon relay computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Kevin L. Anderson wrote: > A quick statement and a question: > > (1) I seem to recall that the keyboard used on the original Kaypro > luggable computer was labeled as the "IBM Selectric" keyboard. Kaypro must have been making a pretty generic comparison, as I certainly do not recall either a numeric keypad or arrow keys on the Selectric. - don > I had been a user of the IBM Selectric typewriter at the time of > using my first Kaypro computer, and recall the look and feel to be > identical (or at least similar enough) in the key shapes and > layout. When you folks mention the VT100 keyboard, you are talking > about a different animal, right? (Also a nice keyboard....) > > (2) Would someone please repost the URL for the Simon relay > computer. Thanks. > > Cheers. Kevin Anderson > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College > Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 > e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent > the administration of Augustana College. > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Feb 22 14:01:37 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: The tandy TRS 80 with 4 drives (fwd) Message-ID: This person has a TRS 80 that needs a new home. Unfortunately I don't know too much about it. Please contact the original sender for details. Reply-to: WADDL@aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:10:11 EST From: WADDL@aol.com To: vcf@siconic.com Subject: The tandy TRS 80 with 4 drives As far I know it is in good working order. I am in Corpus Christi, Texas Are you interested in it? Walter Dillard Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Feb 22 15:00:40 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: TV License in UK (was Re: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors?) In-Reply-To: References: from "Clint Wolff" at Feb 21, 0 03:33:45 pm Message-ID: <200002222002.VAA10553@mail2.siemens.de> > > Ummm.... Why do you need a license to operate a TV in the UK? And does > The money from the license is used to fund the BBC. But you still need > the license even if you only watch the commercial channels. Same over here in Germany - you may call it a tax, althrough the collection is not government driven. They use it for the public chanles (TV and Radio), but unlike in the UK, these Chanels also do comercials (but restricted). Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 22 14:35:54 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <018a01bf7d69$4b358520$59eb93c3@proteus>; from Peter Pachla on Tue, Feb 22, 2000 at 04:55:05PM -0000 References: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus>; <200002220540.XAA08286@garcon.laidbak.com> <018a01bf7d69$4b358520$59eb93c3@proteus> Message-ID: <20000222133554.B6016@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Feb 22, 2000 at 04:55:05PM -0000, Peter Pachla wrote: > putting "Esc" on the same row as the "F" keys, sigh, "Esc" lives next to the > "1" key or, at worst, in the top left corner of the numeric keypad.... :-( ESC should definitely be on the left. With it on the far upper left, isolated all by itself, the advantage is you can just reach up in the general direction and not have to worry about hitting anything else; whereas if it's next to the "1" it's not as far a reach in the first place. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Feb 22 14:55:17 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Information still needed for Infotron IF/65 Development System II for 65XX microprocessors and CUBIT EPROM Programming board - AIM-65 or KIM ? In-Reply-To: <200002221937.LAA30583@spies.com> Message-ID: <000001bf7d77$204905e0$89e3dfd0@cobweb.net> >Infotron made intellegent multiplexers, this might >be a test set for that. >They also made erzatz DH-11's a LONG time ago. I forgot to mention on the back of the Infotron there are five DB25 connectors labeled as follows: TO MODEM, MALE; TO TERM, FEMALE AND THREE FEMALES LABELED: T NETWORK. Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From bill at chipware.com Tue Feb 22 15:06:49 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! Message-ID: <000d01bf7d78$bbe3f6d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Hi, Once again demonstrating my vast quantities of ignorance... I need a diode which completely blocks current in one direction and presents as little resistance in the other direction as possible. I bought a fist full of little glass ones at Radio Shack for 50 cents. On my Ohm meter, they show no conductance in one direction and 1400KOhm the other way. What do I need to get? RS (which is the only resource I have available, I need them like _NOW_) has many different kinds of diodes, ranging up to two dollars per pair. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Feb 22 15:19:42 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! Message-ID: <200002222119.NAA23733@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> Tell the group what you're trying to do, based on your requirements there are several alternatives! What type of application is this for? Kevin On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:06:49 -0500 classiccmp@classiccmp.org wrote: > Hi, > > Once again demonstrating my vast quantities of ignorance... > I need a diode which completely blocks current in one direction > and presents as little resistance in the other direction > as possible. I bought a fist full of little glass ones at > Radio Shack for 50 cents. On my Ohm meter, they show no > conductance in one direction and 1400KOhm the other way. > What do I need to get? RS (which is the only resource I > have available, I need them like _NOW_) has many different > kinds of diodes, ranging up to two dollars per pair. > > Thanks, > Bill Sudbrink From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 22 15:24:37 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: Diode help... HELP! (Bill Sudbrink) References: <000d01bf7d78$bbe3f6d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <14514.65173.281554.594391@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 22, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Once again demonstrating my vast quantities of ignorance... > I need a diode which completely blocks current in one direction > and presents as little resistance in the other direction > as possible. I bought a fist full of little glass ones at > Radio Shack for 50 cents. On my Ohm meter, they show no > conductance in one direction and 1400KOhm the other way. > What do I need to get? RS (which is the only resource I > have available, I need them like _NOW_) has many different > kinds of diodes, ranging up to two dollars per pair. Hmm...keep in mind that all semiconductor diodes exhibit a forward voltage drop...0.3v for germanium and 0.7v for silicon diodes. If your multimeter isn't using more than that forward voltage drop to measure that "conducting-mode" resistance, you won't get anywhere with that measurement method. -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 12:35:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 21, 0 07:42:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 904 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/d9c5223c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 12:38:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <034d01bf7cdc$eeee30a0$0fea93c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 22, 0 01:46:37 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 744 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/c504e40f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 13:06:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: <001e01bf7d42$8ddf5300$59eb93c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 22, 0 02:27:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 637 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/ecd5ca63/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 12:52:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: HP9114B battery pack In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000222005927.00f30300@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> from "Carlos Murillo" at Feb 22, 0 00:59:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3693 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/f7ab8a66/attachment.ksh From bill at chipware.com Tue Feb 22 15:46:54 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <200002222119.NAA23733@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <000f01bf7d7e$55a7e100$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Tell the group what you're trying to do, based on your > requirements there are several alternatives! > > What type of application is this for? This is totally off topic, by the way. Sorry... I have an embedded computer which has four user readable DIP switches on it. Board is running at 3.3 volts. I want to be able to distinguish between 7 possible SPST switches being closed (one at a time) or all being open. I thought "OK. I'll just convert the single switch event to a binary number by hooking it to the appropriate pins on the DIP switch. Then I'll prevent the multi-bit numbers from cross feeding the single bit events by putting diodes in." But, the diodes have too much resistance for the board to see the switch as closed. The single-bit switches, 1, 2 and 4, read just fine. Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 15:42:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <000d01bf7d78$bbe3f6d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Feb 22, 0 04:06:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2064 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/8e410641/attachment.ksh From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Feb 22 16:04:35 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! Message-ID: <20000222.160436.-303259.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Bill: You should test your diodes with an OHM Meter that has a high enough test voltage to overcome the barrier potential of approx 700mV for a silicon, and about 300mV for a germanium device. What sort of application are you looking use it for? For high current/voltage applications, silicon is pretty much your only choice, as they can be made with very high PRV (peak reverse voltage), and higher power rating. For small-signal use, germanium diodes work best; they have low barrier potential and lower 'ON' resistance (sounds like this is what you want). Used to be, the glass diodes RS used to sell were a mixture of both types. You can tell the difference with a DMM that has a 'diode' test range; the DMM will put enough voltage across the device to foreward bias it (turn it 'on') and display the apparent resistance of the device. Germanuim devices will have a lower apparent resistance. Another way would be to apply a (low) voltage across the device with a resistor in series, and measure the voltage across the device. Of course, all diodes have some reverse leakage current, and all diodes exhibit this 'barrier potential' phenomena; the trick is to find one with a low enough 'on' resistance that will satisfy your requirements. I used to get diodes from RS to make crystal sets; in those days, I found the best ones by wiring it into the set to test it! Jeff On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:06:49 -0500 "Bill Sudbrink" writes: > Hi, > > Once again demonstrating my vast quantities of ignorance... > I need a diode which completely blocks current in one direction > and presents as little resistance in the other direction > as possible. I bought a fist full of little glass ones at > Radio Shack for 50 cents. On my Ohm meter, they show no > conductance in one direction and 1400KOhm the other way. > What do I need to get? RS (which is the only resource I > have available, I need them like _NOW_) has many different > kinds of diodes, ranging up to two dollars per pair. > > Thanks, > Bill Sudbrink > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From marvin at rain.org Mon Feb 21 16:14:59 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Keyboards / Simon relay computer? References: Message-ID: <38B1B8E3.EA0E5704@rain.org> "Kevin L. Anderson" wrote: > > (2) Would someone please repost the URL for the Simon relay > computer. Thanks. If you are talking about who might have posted the scans, I have no idea if anyone has done that yet. But Doug has some information at: http://www.blinkenlights.com/ Just click on the Pop Quiz. From apple at cmc.net Tue Feb 22 16:18:08 2000 From: apple at cmc.net (Jack Noble) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! Message-ID: <011701bf7d82$b39d1560$ab1e66ce@apple> Germanium diodes have the least amount of voltage drop while conducting (about .06 volts I think) and a popular one that should be readily available is the 1N34 or 1N34A. The reason that diodes seem to act funny on an ohmmeter is because of the fwd voltage drop while conducting. The silicon diodes that you probably got at radio shack have a fwd drop of more than .5 volts and will appear as a high resistance to your meter even though they are conducting. Hope this helps Noble -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 1:44 PM Subject: Diode help... HELP! >Hi, > >Once again demonstrating my vast quantities of ignorance... >I need a diode which completely blocks current in one direction >and presents as little resistance in the other direction >as possible. I bought a fist full of little glass ones at >Radio Shack for 50 cents. On my Ohm meter, they show no >conductance in one direction and 1400KOhm the other way. >What do I need to get? RS (which is the only resource I >have available, I need them like _NOW_) has many different >kinds of diodes, ranging up to two dollars per pair. > >Thanks, >Bill Sudbrink From elvey at hal.com Tue Feb 22 16:18:13 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Information still needed for Infotron IF/65 Development System II for 65XX microprocessors and CUBIT EPROM Programming board - AIM-65 or KIM ? In-Reply-To: <002201bf7d67$996b1ae0$89e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <200002222218.OAA20911@civic.hal.com> "Bill Dawson" wrote: > > This programmer can be viewed at http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/Pics/cubit.jpg > > Thanks, > > Bill > > whdawson@mlynk.com Hi Bill I am currently buying a card exactly like the one you picture from hxho@pacbell.net. I am wondering because you are using the exact same .jpg. I just want to make sure I am not sending my money into a empty hole. Are you dealing with Ho or what??? Dwight From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Feb 22 16:18:50 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Thrift store finds... Message-ID: Book day today...I passed up 15 books I would have liked to have but was too stingy to shell out the $$$ for. What I did pick up is: Electronic data Processing, E. Wainright Martin, 1961. Intel Microprocessor and Peripheral Handbook, vol.2, 1987. 68000 Assembly Language Programming, Kane/Hawkins/Leventhal, 1981. Motorola MC68020 User's Manual, 1984. I also grabbed a couple of genuine Apple mousepads and a Macally clone keyboard for $2. They also had an HP terminal keyboard, but no terminal. I'm keeping my eyes open... Cheers, Aaron From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Feb 22 16:52:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <000f01bf7d7e$55a7e100$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> References: <200002222119.NAA23733@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> Message-ID: >> Tell the group what you're trying to do, based on your >> requirements there are several alternatives! >> >> What type of application is this for? > >This is totally off topic, by the way. Sorry... > >I have an embedded computer which has four user >readable DIP switches on it. Board is running >at 3.3 volts. I want to be able to distinguish >between 7 possible SPST switches being closed >(one at a time) or all being open. I thought >"OK. I'll just convert the single switch event >to a binary number by hooking it to the appropriate >pins on the DIP switch. Then I'll prevent the >multi-bit numbers from cross feeding the single >bit events by putting diodes in." But, the diodes >have too much resistance for the board to see the >switch as closed. The single-bit switches, 1, 2 >and 4, read just fine. > >Bill Sounds like a job for an IC, like 8 bit parallel to serial using one dip switch input for serial data perhaps clocked by sequential reads. Maybe a 7 bit binary to octal? 8 bit multiplexer? Sheesh, I shudder to think how many pens are busy on the backs of envelopes right now. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Feb 22 17:08:08 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! Message-ID: <002901bf7d89$af55f1a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Actually, germanium diodes, e.g. 1N43A, 1N270, etc, have a forward voltage on the order of 0.32 volts. There are numerous SCHOTTKY diodes with considerably lower forward voltage. Check the DigiKey catalog for possible candidates. Their catalog lists forward voltage as a characteristic. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jack Noble To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 3:39 PM Subject: Re: Diode help... HELP! >Germanium diodes have the least amount of voltage drop while conducting >(about .06 volts I think) and a popular one that should be readily available >is the 1N34 or 1N34A. The reason that diodes seem to act funny on an >ohmmeter is because of the fwd voltage drop while conducting. The silicon >diodes that you probably got at radio shack have a fwd drop of more than .5 >volts and will appear as a high resistance to your meter even though they >are conducting. Hope this helps > >Noble >-----Original Message----- >From: Bill Sudbrink >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 1:44 PM >Subject: Diode help... HELP! > > >>Hi, >> >>Once again demonstrating my vast quantities of ignorance... >>I need a diode which completely blocks current in one direction >>and presents as little resistance in the other direction >>as possible. I bought a fist full of little glass ones at >>Radio Shack for 50 cents. On my Ohm meter, they show no >>conductance in one direction and 1400KOhm the other way. >>What do I need to get? RS (which is the only resource I >>have available, I need them like _NOW_) has many different >>kinds of diodes, ranging up to two dollars per pair. >> >>Thanks, >>Bill Sudbrink > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 16:23:12 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <000f01bf7d7e$55a7e100$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Feb 22, 0 04:46:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 964 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/e7d5256a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 17:01:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: More on the HP9114B Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2716 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/fec379a5/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Tue Feb 22 17:16:40 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Information still needed for Infotron IF/65 Development System II for 65XX microprocessors and CUBIT EPROM Programming board - AIM-65 or KIM ? In-Reply-To: <000201bf7d89$12b1d8a0$afe3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <200002222316.PAA21661@civic.hal.com> Hi All I just made a mistake in sending to the group. I only meant to send to Bill. As it turns out, ther was no issue. Bill had borrowed the picture. I hope no one takes it against hxho@pacbell.net. He only loaned the picture and I was just checking the double match. Please forgive me Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 17:13:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Feb 22, 0 02:52:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 939 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/94c5719d/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Feb 22 17:31:14 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <000f01bf7d7e$55a7e100$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> References: <200002222119.NAA23733@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <4.1.20000222150646.00bfa330@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 04:46 PM 2/22/00 -0500, Bill wrote: >I have an embedded computer which has four user >readable DIP switches on it. Board is running >at 3.3 volts. I want to be able to distinguish >between 7 possible SPST switches being closed >(one at a time) or all being open. I thought >"OK. I'll just convert the single switch event >to a binary number by hooking it to the appropriate >pins on the DIP switch. Then I'll prevent the >multi-bit numbers from cross feeding the single >bit events by putting diodes in." But, the diodes >have too much resistance for the board to see the >switch as closed. The single-bit switches, 1, 2 >and 4, read just fine. The diodes aren't your problem. The circuit is. Even 1N914 "glass" diodes that you buy at radio shack will conduct at 3.3v. You are doing one row of a keyboard matrix encoder consider the following lousy ASCII diagram. The "*" are connection between wires, the D is a Diode pointed "down" and to the right. All inputs are presumed to be pulled up to Vcc when open circuited. Note that since you are using "ground" as your reference you can't detect switch #7 (only switches zero through six, although they can be silk screened 1 through 7 :-) The logic must detect .7v as being logic 0 (usually not a problem) Bit 0 ------*-------------*-------------*-------------*---- \ | | \ | | \ | | \ | D | | D | | D | | D | \| | \| | \| | \| * | * | * | * | | | | | | | Bit 1 ----------|--*---|--*---|------|------|--*---|--*---| | \ | \ | | | \ | \ | | D | D | | | D | D | | \| \| | | \| \| | * * | | * * | | | | | | | Bit 2 ----------|------|------|--*---|--*---|--*---|--*---| | | | \ | \ | \ | \ | | | | D | D | D | D | | | | \| \| \| \| | | | * * * * | | | | | | | | | | | | | | / / / / / / / / / / / / / / | | | | | | | Ground ---------+------+------+------+------+------+------+ Switch # 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 --Chuck From bill at chipware.com Tue Feb 22 17:35:51 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001001bf7d8d$8df6b680$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > > I have an embedded computer which has four user > > readable DIP switches on it. Board is running > > at 3.3 volts. I want to be able to distinguish > > between 7 possible SPST switches being closed > > (one at a time) or all being open. I thought > > If those SPST switches could become 2 and 3 pole switches, the problem is > trivial to solve.... Unfortunately, not possible. > > "OK. I'll just convert the single switch event > > to a binary number by hooking it to the appropriate > > pins on the DIP switch. Then I'll prevent the > > multi-bit numbers from cross feeding the single > > bit events by putting diodes in." But, the diodes > > have too much resistance for the board to see the > > switch as closed. The single-bit switches, 1, 2 > > and 4, read just fine. > > The current involved is presumably small, so the problem is the 0.7V > forward drop of the silicon diodes. > > You might try using germanium (if you can find them) or shottky diodes. > They should have a lower forward voltage drop. Thanks! From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Feb 22 17:40:04 2000 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: TI DS990/1 Message-ID: <38B31E53.842EB6BD@dragonsweb.org> Today's acqisition here is a TI DS990 Model 1 Intelligent Terminal. This designation appears to be a complete misnomer as it is in fact a full microcomputer. The case appears to be laid up in fiberglass from the same mold as a TI 820 KSR, and the logic bus has 86 pins, which I recall from other terminals of the late '70s, but it has a 3 Mhz TMS9900 processor (nice BIG white ceramic JDL part with gold pins), 64K of ram (4116's, plus parity), a TMS9900 based I/O controller board, 2 asych serial cards, floppy disk controller, and a VDU controller. Going by the configuration table on the back of the case there were other options available as well, including "GPH", which I am wondering whether might be some sort of bit-mapped graphics display. The backplane has a total of 12 slots, 7 occupied. There are what appear to be 3 serial connectors on the back of the case, but they do not connect directly to the serial cards. They go through the bus apparently. I've never had my hands on an 820, but I don't think they're this elaborate, and the 911 VDT's I have certainly aren't. Nice hefty modular 200W linear power supply with its own bus, too. This particular unit has seen some rough handling at some point, and is missing a few keycaps, but it is clean, and powers up. There's a nice raster on the screen, but no cursor. Apparently it must boot off a disk. There's a 25 pin connector on the back of the case which must be for a cable to a FD800/1000 dual 8" drive (which I don't have yet). The "IDLE" and "EXEC" lights on what amounts to a minimal front panel on the keyboard light up, but that's it. No "ERR", anyway. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, so I can track down the problem. In actual use, from what I was told, it was probably hooked up by modem to Tymshare, the predecessor of Tymnet, and thence to a central facility. It has lttle bezels on the front shoulders of the case that identify it as a Tymshare Travel Business System BS2000. As an aside, I did a little searching, and apparently MCI/Worldcom is still running Tymnet, now on rackmount Sparc-based nodes rather than the earlier PDP-10's.and M68K's (I preferred Telenet for X.25; they were always a year or two ahead on dial-in speeds where I was.) Anyway, if anyone has manuals or software, in particular a bootable system disk, for this machine, I'm all ears. Likewise, if anyone has any questions about it, I'll do my best to answer them. jbdigriz -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- DragonsWeb Labs - Custom R&D, Software, & Hardware ---------------------------------------------------------------- Tagline for Tuesday, February 22, 2000 If rabbits feet are so lucky, what happened to the rabbit? ---------------------------------------------------------------- James B. DiGriz - jbdigriz@dragonsweb.org - (912) 653-5139 ---------------------------------------------------------------- From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Feb 22 12:55:08 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 21, 0 07:42:22 pm Message-ID: <200002222353.e1MNr8j18698@admin.cgocable.net> Hi! I'm banging on 8 years old 101key model M keyboard plugged into 1 year old machine. My bench stuff has this keyboard too. And 4 more for parts plus 1 spacesaver modified to have LEDs. Keytronics is sorta ok. Thinkpads of most models. What about Logitech keyboards? What I prefer: -no stick, no grinding feel, binding or creaking. -clear, sharp positive feedback feel. -light to medium-light pressure. -no miss even pressed lightly get characters back. What I don't like: compaq's notebook/laptop keyboards it binds and grinds too heavy pressure to trip "rollover", Dec keyboards (no feedback by feel!), mushy ie: M$ natural, Tandy keyboards, zenith's both pc and at keyboards. Pet pevee: coiled keyboard cords on those IBM mod M keyboards! Wizard From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 22 18:46:08 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <000d01bf7d78$bbe3f6d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000222194608.3eef818e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Bill, If you have other power available you can make an active diode with a diode and an op amp. With those there is NO forward voltage loss. It depends on what you're trying to do. Joe At 04:06 PM 2/22/00 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, > >Once again demonstrating my vast quantities of ignorance... >I need a diode which completely blocks current in one direction >and presents as little resistance in the other direction >as possible. I bought a fist full of little glass ones at >Radio Shack for 50 cents. On my Ohm meter, they show no >conductance in one direction and 1400KOhm the other way. >What do I need to get? RS (which is the only resource I >have available, I need them like _NOW_) has many different >kinds of diodes, ranging up to two dollars per pair. > >Thanks, >Bill Sudbrink > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 22 18:51:52 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: References: <034d01bf7cdc$eeee30a0$0fea93c3@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000222195152.3eefadb8@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:38 PM 2/22/00 +0000, you wrote: >> How did the touch screen operate then, infra red beams? > >For the HP150, yes. Emitters on the left side and bottom, detectors on >the right side and top. The resolution was good enough to select one of a >pair of characters IIRC (it cheated, and used 2 adjacent beams blocked as >to detect when you were midway between said beams). > >> >> ISTR that I once saw a touch screen (in fact probably the only one I've ever >> seen) which was some sort of transparent layer attached to the face of the >> CRT, it looked rather like an anti-glare covering. It was nice as you >> couldn't smudge it.... :-) > >The HP Omingo 100 pocket computer uses a thing like that (you write on >the LCD screen with a stylus). It wears out _very_ quickly, though. I have an Apple Newton 120 that uses a stylus. This one works well, there are no marks on it after a number of years of use. Joe > >-tony > > From bill at chipware.com Tue Feb 22 18:15:27 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000222150646.00bfa330@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <001101bf7d93$166697b0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Chuck McManis gave me a circuit diagram... Hmmm... Here's what I was trying: [*] for connection [D] for diode like this: -*->|-* | Binary 1-------*----|----D----|----D----|----D | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 2-------|----*----D----|----|----D----D | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 3-------|----|----|----*----D----D----D | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | \ \ \ \ \ \ \ *----*----*----*----*----*----*----GND Switch: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Or, to put it in flat english: switch 1 to binary pin 1, direct connect switch 2 to binary pin 2, direct connect switch 3 to binary pin 1 through diode switch 3 to binary pin 2 through diode switch 4 to binary pin 3, direct connect switch 5 to binary pin 1 through diode switch 5 to binary pin 3 through diode switch 6 to binary pin 2 through diode switch 6 to binary pin 3 through diode switch 7 to binary pin 1 through diode switch 7 to binary pin 2 through diode switch 7 to binary pin 3 through diode This should let me detect any one switch closed or all switches open. What I get is the ability to detect switches 1, 2 and 4 and no others... which leads me to the conclusion that the diodes are a problem. From aek at spies.com Tue Feb 22 18:14:54 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: TI DS990/1 Message-ID: <200002230014.QAA26688@spies.com> there is a dissassembly of the boot rom for the 990/4 up at www.spies.com/aek/orphan.html now, along with one for the 990/12. If you have a way to dump the boot proms, it would be interesting to see how similar they were. If you have a way to take pictures of the boards, I'd be curious to see what the I/O cards look like, esp the floppy controller board. From vaxman at uswest.net Tue Feb 22 19:03:44 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: How many Vaxes? In-Reply-To: <38B2A4B7.48B50266@arrl.net> Message-ID: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Dan Kolb > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2000 5:20 > > > Subject: Re: How many Vaxes? > > > > > > > On a semi-related note, what sort of Vaxen do people on this list > Hmm... In mostly working condition (all de-installed while I finish my basement, mostly stored in living room) 11/750 - TU80, 1 Eagle, 3 Avalon coprocessors (no docs), 14MB, BSD 4.3 when I get around to building a console tape to install it uVAX II - STC GCR 9-track, TK50, TK70, 16MB, 3 fuji M2337 drives, RD53, RD54, VMS 5.4? uVAX III - STC GC 9-track (shared with above), TK50, 16MB, SCSI, Quantum Fireball SE 2.1GB, Ultrix 3.1 uVAX 2000 - TK50, 2xRD54, 14MB, dead 4-plane Untested: 1-VAXStation II in BA23 case (missing cabinet kit for QDSS board) 6-DECstation 3100 (unknown options) 6-VAXStation 3100 (unknown options) 2-VAXStation 3100/M38 (unknown options) Spares: At least two complete board sets for the 11/750, three uVAX II CPUs, and a stack of paperwork I haven't inventoried yet... The plan is to build 2 or 3 VS3100s with orthoganol hardware selections, then unload the rest as tested/working systems... I'm still looking for a uPDP 11/73 to fill out my collection.... Any offers :) Clint From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Feb 22 19:16:19 2000 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: TI DS990/1 References: <200002230014.QAA26688@spies.com> Message-ID: <38B334E2.E08A0C3A@dragonsweb.org> Al Kossow wrote: > there is a dissassembly of the boot rom for the 990/4 up at > www.spies.com/aek/orphan.html now, along with one for the 990/12. > I'll be looking at it for clues. Thanks. I have a suspicion there are going to be some major differences, though. > > If you have a way to dump the boot proms, it would be interesting > to see how similar they were. It has a couple of EPROMs on the I/O processor board. Don't have any way to dump them at the moment but will soon. > > > If you have a way to take pictures of the boards, I'd be curious > to see what the I/O cards look like, esp the floppy controller > board. I have a video camera and a capture board I'm putting in another machine. Hopefully sometime this week. Will let you know. When I first saw the boards, I thought they might be TM990/100M modules, but they only have 86 pins, not 100, and the bus edge is centered, not offset like the 990/100M, and not split like the 990/10 (or 4) 13-slot chassis. Release levers only on one end. Little rubber bumpers where a lever would go on the other end. The floppy controller board looks like mostly glue logic and a few drivers. I suspect the I/O processor does most of the work. jbdigriz -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- DragonsWeb Labs - Custom R&D, Software, & Hardware ---------------------------------------------------------------- Tagline for Tuesday, February 22, 2000 If rabbits feet are so lucky, what happened to the rabbit? ---------------------------------------------------------------- James B. DiGriz - jbdigriz@dragonsweb.org - (912) 653-5139 ---------------------------------------------------------------- From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue Feb 22 19:43:32 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: 11/785 available Message-ID: <38B33B44.3D60CD39@arrl.net> For anyone that may be interested, a posting just came up on comp.sys.dec.micro offering (free) a VAX11/785. No location specified. Did'nt copy over his text as im not sure if its 'kosher' to do so without posters permission. Good luck, Nick From emu at ecubics.com Tue Feb 22 20:22:34 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: 11/785 available References: <38B33B44.3D60CD39@arrl.net> Message-ID: <060a01bf7da4$dafc4e60$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Oliviero To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 18:43 Subject: 11/785 available > For anyone that may be interested, a posting just came up on > comp.sys.dec.micro offering (free) a VAX11/785. No location > specified. I asked him already. It's SF area :-( cheers, emanuel From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Feb 22 20:36:14 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <001101bf7d93$166697b0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> References: <4.1.20000222150646.00bfa330@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000222182634.0256cb90@mcmanis.com> At 07:15 PM 2/22/00 -0500, Bill wrote: > > Chuck McManis gave me a circuit diagram... > >Hmmm... Here's what I was trying: > >[*] for connection > >[D] for diode like this: -*->|-* > | > Your circuit is nearly equivalent. I'm guessing that you don't have the pins pulled high to Vcc through a small enough resistor. This is what I think is happening. When the input pins are floating, there is enough leakage to pull them high, but when they are grounded directly they go low. The back side of a diode "looks" like an open circuit to the floating pin. You can test my theory as follows. Connect pin 1 to a diode then to ground through a switch. Read back the pin while changing the switch. What do you get? (given your previous experience it will probably read as a logic '1' both ways) Now pull the pin high by connecting a 4.7K resistor between the pin and Vcc behind the diode so you have this: Vcc | R (4.7K) | Pin ----+-----|>|----/ ---Ground Now repeat the experiment. If I'm right you'll see the switch this time. If I'm wrong you should look for some Shottky diodes :-) --Chuck From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 22 20:30:17 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: Touchscreens (was Re: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <034d01bf7cdc$eeee30a0$0fea93c3@proteus>; from Peter Pachla on Tue, Feb 22, 2000 at 01:46:37AM -0000 References: <048101bf7119$3cf56720$91d993c3@proteus> <200002070425.UAA86423@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <034d01bf7cdc$eeee30a0$0fea93c3@proteus> Message-ID: <20000222193017.B7106@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Feb 22, 2000 at 01:46:37AM -0000, Peter Pachla wrote: > >....concluded that while the 150 wasn't that bad, touch screens > >were not all that they were cracked up to be.... > >....it resulted in a sort of fatigue that was called "gorilla > >arm".... > > Quite, I can believe it. I recall messing around with a light pen on my > Atari back around 1984, nice idea but my arm would soon start to ache if I > used it a lot....so I gave up on it (but then this is the man who hates > function keys above the keyboard as he can't operate them with the little > finger of his left hand (lazy or what!?)). I really like the Sun "Starfire" concept. It's very pie-in-the-sky at this point... but basically you sit in front of a giant screen whose lower 18" is horizontal, like a desk, and curves upwards and inwards like a baseball backstop. The entire thing is a touchscreen and scanner also; any paper you lay on the surface becomes an electronic document with no further intervention. You can work on the horizontal surface to reduce arm fatigue but also drag reference materials or large windows of other kinds up onto the vertical part of the display. So it would seem to be the best of both worlds (vertical monitor for easy reading, combined with a horizontal work surface like a drafting table). This was never built of course, they did a "video prototype". I've seen the video once but it has become available retail so I ordered a copy to see it again. Once wireless touchscreen "web pads" become more commonplace we may see people using those to operate a big-screen display remotely; the pad can display user-interface elements while the big-screen shows what you're actually working on. You can position it however it's most comfortable. > How did the touch screen operate then, infra red beams? There have been a variety of touchscreen and pen type devices over the years. The most common ones now are the resistive and capacitive types; both involve a film coating over the CRT. With the resistive one, there are two layers with some kind of grid of transparent resistive traces; and the pressure of your finger causes them to come into more intimate contact, lowering the resistance between the two traces which cross at that point. The resistance is proportional to the pressure, and this is handy in some applications. With the capacitive type, the presence of your finger changes the capacitance and this gets detected, but these screens are not pressure-sensitive. You can also use a stylus that has a similar effect on the capacitance, but not a hard-tipped one. There is also the Surface Acoustic Wave (SAW) variety, which (I think) somehow uses ultrasound to detect very slight deformations in the glass as you press your finger against it; this type is also pressure-sensitive. There have been infrared beam touchscreens but those tend to be lower-resolution. It detects your finger breaking a pair of crossing beams. And of course there's the old lightpen trick. There is a hardware register somewhere which has a pointer to the VRAM memory location where the color value for the current dot (or character) being painted is coming from; so when the pen detects that the phosphor dot under it has just been lit up by the electron gun, simply go check that pointer to determine what the coordinates of that dot are. I imagine high-persistence phosphors probably interfere with the ability of this method to work very well. And there is another kind of touchscreen that is simply a base that you set a conventional monitor on. I believe it detects a force differential between several strain gauges; as you push on the screen, the weight distribution on the base changes in proportion to where you're pushing and how hard. But it's been a while since I've seen material on this kind and I've never seen an actual unit. I'd bet the calibration would be somewhat finicky. For use with a stylus, the additional options are RF-based. Some of them require the stylus (or puck, in the case of a digitizing board) to be powered and emitting a low-power radio signal. It's picked up by a criss-crossing grid of circuit board traces behind the screen, which act as antennae, and the signal strength gives it a clue to where the pen is located. An advantage of this method is that you can move the cursor without physical contact. My Dauphin DTR-1 uses this type of digitizer, and I can move the cursor with the pen up to 1/2" or so away from the screen. Pressing it down is equivalent to a mouse click. The disadvantage is that the pen must be powered, with batteries in the case of the DTR-1 or else tethered to the machine in other cases. There are also RF-type pens that are passive; the machine emits RF and the pen acts as a transponder to relay it back. My IBM 730T Thinkpad uses an unpowered type of pen but I haven't opened it up to see if the detector is just a grid of circuit board traces or something more. I believe the Newton and other practical PDAs like the Palm probably use resistive screens, because they work with your finger as well as the stylus (but with less precision), and the stylus is just a chunk of plastic. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Feb 22 20:31:20 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:08 2005 Subject: 11/785 available In-Reply-To: <060a01bf7da4$dafc4e60$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: Uh, you don't think they'd let me take this on the plane as carry-on luggage, huh? I'm going to be in SF on Monday for work... (looking at a picture of an 11/785 on netbsd.org) On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, emanuel stiebler wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Nick Oliviero > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 18:43 > Subject: 11/785 available > > > > For anyone that may be interested, a posting just came up on > > comp.sys.dec.micro offering (free) a VAX11/785. No location > > specified. > > I asked him already. It's SF area :-( > > cheers, > emanuel > > From nerdware at laidbak.com Tue Feb 22 21:55:32 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <018a01bf7d69$4b358520$59eb93c3@proteus> Message-ID: <200002230355.VAA22275@garcon.laidbak.com> From: "Peter Pachla" > Actually, now you mention it, I really liked the old keyboards which Apple > shipped with the Mac Plus and earlier. I guess it's personal preference, but I don't like the 128/Plus keyboards as much. Felt sorta weird to me. > > > And one of the worst keyboards I've ever used is the standard ADB keyboard > I got with my "Classic II". "Yuck" just doesn't cover it....I can see why > people quickly switched to the extended keyboards. > Amen to that. And I'm still not that fond of the extended boards. I use the IIgs board on my 9500, I have a Datadesk 101e on my 8500 (nice clicky microswitches) and I use an Apple Keyboard II on my DuoDock. When I get my office rearranged, the 8500 will get the Ergo, the Duo will get the Datadesk, and the 7200 will get the KBII. I'll move the Extended to the SE/30. > > Absolutely, I can operate the function keys on my 84 key keyboard with my > left hand without even thinking about it. With them arranged along the top > I have to make a concious decision to use the apt key, and then take my > hand off the main part of the keyboard to operate the keys....which REALLY > disturbs my rhythm when I'm using the machine. > They tried to give me a new keyboard once, and I threw a tantrum until they let me keep the old one. We switched to Evil$soft Naturals a couple of years later, which was fine except that keyboard shortcuts that I could type with one hand now required unnatural reaches from one half to the other....now that I'm out of cad and into IT, it's ergo all the way. Just wish they used better keys instead of rubber domes. > I've not used very many laptop keyboards. I do like the keyboard on my > Toshiba T3100SX (for which I need a working power controller PCB) I just scrapped one at work, but it wouldn't have helped you any. I tried to power it up for fun, and nothing but the smell of previously toasted electronics. Keyboard was sort of busted up also.... Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 22 22:03:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: HP9114B battery pack Message-ID: <200002230403.XAA07551@world.std.com> I finally built a rack for my 9track tapes and went through them all. In addition to what looks like an entire software distribution for my (still dead) Cadnetix system, I found two VMS tapes, available to anyone interested: XDS-11 Base Package Signetics' Amaze Rev.C Binary (must be an *ancient* version of this, marked 1985) Cheers, Aaron From mmcmanus at direct.ca Tue Feb 22 23:43:17 2000 From: mmcmanus at direct.ca (mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Archive Viper Data Cartridge Drive - Available for cost of shippi ng References: Message-ID: <00a901bf7dc0$e341db00$0c8442d8@o9r9l7> Archive Viper Data Cartridge Drive - Available for cost of shippingI would love to have the unit. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: John Dykstra To: classiccmp-digest@classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2000 3:59 PM Subject: Archive Viper Data Cartridge Drive - Available for cost of shippi ng I've got an Archive "Viper" 150 MB. data cartridge drive with SCSI interface, model 2150S, available to the first responder for the cost of shipping. The drive worked the last time I used it (several years ago), but there's no warranty. The belt, heads and capstan are unworn and appear in good condition. This is the drive only--no enclosure or power supply. If you want them, I also have seven data cartridges. Althrough they physically fit this drive, they may not all be accepted by the drive's firmware--I have a half memory that certain drives only worked with certain cartridges. If you want this drive and the cartridges, email me your address, desired method of shipping, and whether you want the cartridges. If I don't hear anything by Wednesday, it goes up on eBay. ---- John Dykstra jdykstra@nortelnetworks.com Principal Software Architect voice: +1 651 415-1604 Nortel Networks fax: +1 612 932-8549 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/eb7d6737/attachment.html From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Feb 23 00:52:17 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Stuff to trade/stuff I'm looking for In-Reply-To: Aaron Christopher Finney's message of "Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:02:57 -0800 (PST)" References: Message-ID: <200002230652.WAA33003@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: [Aaron's looking for:] > A keyboard for my HP2649 terminal > > HP2392, HP2622, or HP2645 terminal. I need one for my 3000 (using a laptop > with an HP term program right now). The 2649 I have is dubious; I get a > screen full of what looks like garbage to me, but then again, I don't have > a keyboard and, in addition, the 2649 is interesting in that it could have > a custom program on it for something other than being a straight terminal. I can't remember whether the terminal would come up without the keyboard (but I think so), and I don't really know for sure what is inside a 2649 though I think it's not too different from a 2641/2645/2648, meaning an 8080 processor...unfortunately my memory's far enough gone that I don't really remember what's inside a 2645 either beyond a bunch of boards. But those boards would be things like a processor card (which I think also has ROM and about 1KB of RAM), a keyboard interface, a datacomm interface, one or more cards for the display, and zero or more memory cards. Some of the cards (but not the memory) would also be joined at their tops by a sort of "frontplane" interconnect board. That said, there's limited interchangeability between 264X terminal keyboards. Once upon a time I swapped keyboards and keyboard interface cards between a 2640B and 2645A just to see if I could, and it mostly worked. Of course, there was the matter that the 2640B keyboard didn't have all the same keys, and its baud rate switch wasn't labeled above 2400. So far as the 3000's concerned, you could also use 262x (for x>1; 2621 will work for character mode but will not support VPLUS block-mode applications), 2382 (which is nice and small but has a 9" display), 239x, or 700/9x terminals. Or an HP150, which pretends to be a 2623A graphics terminal when it's not being a personal computer. BTW, I think you mentioned passing up some HP terminal keyboards, and you might want to stop that, as the keyboards have a habit of becoming detached from the rest of the terminal on their way through the surplus food chain. Once you start thinking about network configuration with NMMGR, a 264X terminal can be a problem as later versions of NMMGR were made to use the terminal's function key display area for some screens, and 264X terminals don't have a function key display area. I have no idea why NMMGR was changed; as near as I can tell it was mostly gratuitous on HP's part and NMMGR will still function correctly, you just have to know which function keys correspond to which functions on those screens. (Guess who was still using a 2645 as the system console and only hardwired terminal on his 3000/58. Fortunately, I did know which buttons to push.) On the other hand, the 2645 will run Space Invaders, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that the 2649 would too. > An HD for my HP3000 that will fit in the bottom rack space. I've gotten > some great info from Joe Rigdon on models and have my eyes open; I need > something big enough so that I can do the initial install of MPE V 3P with > full subsys (it's been estimated that I need at least 100mb or so). A 7958 is about (a little larger than, I think) 100MB and will work and fit in a 3000/37 cabinet. 7958B is faster than 7958A if it matters. I think bigger numbers (e.g. 7959 and 796x) are larger capacities. -Frank McConnell From Jgzabol at aol.com Wed Feb 23 02:03:55 2000 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: 11/785 available Message-ID: In einer eMail vom 2/23/100 3:39:04AM, schreiben Sie: << Uh, you don't think they'd let me take this on the plane as carry-on luggage, huh? I'm going to be in SF on Monday for work... >> According to my experience, shipping this beast would be around US$ 1000,- (within US or to Europe, not counting forwarding within Europe). Not too bad for a solid item like this, I believe. John G. Zabolitzy Munich, Germany From S.D.Birchall at pgr.salford.ac.uk Wed Feb 23 07:05:44 2000 From: S.D.Birchall at pgr.salford.ac.uk (S.D.Birchall@pgr.salford.ac.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: orbis home computer course? In-Reply-To: <00a901bf7dc0$e341db00$0c8442d8@o9r9l7> Message-ID: <20000223132606.7162.qmail@pan.salford.ac.uk> Hi, does anyone have this set of mags, in the UK? who'd be willing to sell/trade? Regards, Stu From mbg at world.std.com Wed Feb 23 07:45:01 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: 11/785 available - contact original author Message-ID: <200002231345.IAA00758@world.std.com> - - - - - Are they any web sites or companies that might be interested in buying or taking away (for free) a 11/785 that is getting ready to be unplugged? tia Shale@sclay.com - - - - - From bill at chipware.com Wed Feb 23 08:56:55 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <200002230404.XAA08125@world.std.com> Message-ID: <001801bf7e0e$39c22550$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Well... Here's what happens when you make assumptions and start to panic. Turns out the problem was simple. The pins were being pulled up to 3.3 not down to ground. All my diodes were backwards. Reverse the diodes, problem solved. Thanks everybody for the help. Bill From edick at idcomm.com Wed Feb 23 09:18:00 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! Message-ID: <001701bf7e11$2c59f520$0400c0a8@winbook> I'll bet you've gained a real appreciation for DIP or SIP packaged DIODES! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 8:10 AM Subject: RE: Diode help... HELP! >Well... Here's what happens when you make assumptions >and start to panic. > >Turns out the problem was simple. The pins were being >pulled up to 3.3 not down to ground. All my diodes >were backwards. Reverse the diodes, problem solved. > >Thanks everybody for the help. > >Bill > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Feb 23 10:23:15 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: OT: Question about GIF optimisation In-Reply-To: <001801bf7e0e$39c22550$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> References: <200002230404.XAA08125@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200002231526.QAA27224@mail2.siemens.de> I know, this isn't exactly on topic (well, maybe it is, since GIF is alreads more than 10 years around), but I think that some folks around are deep into bit munging :) Is there any tool known to optimize GIF files in size ? It hapened that I just changed some GIFs and without changeing the content the files did grow. After some research I found that the editor I used adds some headers (or whatever) structures, increasing the file size. Not a big increase, but if a 900 Byte picture grows to 1100 I'd like to remove the overhead. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.de/VCFe http://www.homecomputer.de/VCFe From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Feb 23 09:46:31 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: OT: Question about GIF optimisation Message-ID: <000223104631.25602355@trailing-edge.com> >Is there any tool known to optimize GIF files in size ? >It hapened that I just changed some GIFs and without >changeing the content the files did grow. After some >research I found that the editor I used adds some headers >(or whatever) structures, increasing the file size. >Not a big increase, but if a 900 Byte picture grows >to 1100 I'd like to remove the overhead. The best way is to convert the GIF into a "portable" bitmap (i.e. nothing but the bits), then back into a GIF again. I've been doing this for a decade with a package called NetPBM: NetPBM, GRAPHICS, Suite of graphic image format manipulation & conversion pgms Enhanced portable bitmap toolkit. The PBMPLUS toolkit allows conversions between image files of different format. By means of using common intermediate formats, only 2 * N conversion filters are required to support N distinct formats, instead of the N**2 which would be required to convert directly between any one format and any other. The package also includes simple tools for manipulating portable bitmaps. As of the last release I built (early 90's), it was supposedly available at: * wuarchive.wustl.edu (128.252.135.4), directory /graphics/graphics/packages/NetPBM * ikaros.fysik4.kth.se (130.237.35.2), directory /pub/netpbm. * ftp.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de (134.106.1.9). This site also carries binaries for the Amiga. * peipa.essex.ac.uk (155.245.115.161), directory ipa/src/manip * ftp.rahul.net (192.160.13.1), directory /pub/davidsen/source * ftp.cs.ubc.ca, directory /ftp/archive/netpbm What *I* like about NetPBM is that it's a command-line tool, not a "point-and-drool" graphics tool. This means that when I have a few thousand images to convert (as I just did yesterday) that I can do them all with a command script. I especially like it for things like auto-cropping and twiddling colormaps to make backgrounds be "transparent". -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ss at allegro.com Wed Feb 23 12:44:28 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Stuff to trade/stuff I'm looking for In-Reply-To: <200002230652.WAA33003@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <200002231845.KAA23999@opus.allegro.com> Re: > keyboard (but I think so), and I don't really know for sure what is > inside a 2649 though I think it's not too different from a > 2641/2645/2648, meaning an 8080 processor...unfortunately my memory's I thought the 2649 was the OEM version of the 2645 ... and that some of them were sold to people who developed 2649-resident software. > > An HD for my HP3000 that will fit in the bottom rack space. I've gotten > > some great info from Joe Rigdon on models and have my eyes open; I need > > something big enough so that I can do the initial install of MPE V 3P with > > full subsys (it's been estimated that I need at least 100mb or so). I actually bought one :) I got a Coyote (HP 6000 670H), about 600 MB?, for $300 from a used equipment vendor. Of course, I bought it with company money, not personal money :) It doesn't fit in the cabinet, but it's 22" deep, 13" wide, 5" tall. SS Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu Wed Feb 23 14:28:38 2000 From: jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: CD rom from "Microsoft Access 2.0 How-To CD" book Message-ID: <20000223152838.B13730@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Hello - I know this doesn't meet the 10 year rule, but it is obsolete. I bought a copy of this book. When I got home I noticed the CD was missing. I called the publisher to buy copy of the CD. They told me the book was out of print and couldn't sell me a CD. I ask if I found one, could I leaglly make a copy. They said yes. I am looking for the cd in order to make a copy. I have a cd burner. Thanks. john -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * * * * ************************************************************************ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 23 12:55:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Touchscreens (was Re: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <20000222193017.B7106@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at Feb 22, 0 07:30:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 393 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000223/8cf91c46/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 23 12:58:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: HP9114B battery pack In-Reply-To: <200002230403.XAA07551@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Feb 22, 0 11:03:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 939 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000223/23801db3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 23 14:11:50 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: OT: Question about GIF optimisation In-Reply-To: <000223104631.25602355@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Feb 23, 0 10:46:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 989 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000223/f78c1d06/attachment.ksh From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Feb 23 16:04:06 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Stuff to trade/stuff I'm looking for In-Reply-To: <200002231845.KAA23999@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Feb 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: > > keyboard (but I think so), and I don't really know for sure what is > > inside a 2649 though I think it's not too different from a > > 2641/2645/2648, meaning an 8080 processor...unfortunately my memory's > > I thought the 2649 was the OEM version of the 2645 ... and that some > of them were sold to people who developed 2649-resident software. Exactly the case. In fact, I believe it was Wirt Amir on the hp3000-l list who was telling me about how his company actually programmed them to be stand-alone wordprocessors. > > > > An HD for my HP3000 that will fit in the bottom rack space. I've gotten > > > some great info from Joe Rigdon on models and have my eyes open; I need > > > something big enough so that I can do the initial install of MPE V 3P with > > > full subsys (it's been estimated that I need at least 100mb or so). > > I actually bought one :) > > I got a Coyote (HP 6000 670H), about 600 MB?, for $300 from a used equipment > vendor. Of course, I bought it with company money, not personal money :) > > It doesn't fit in the cabinet, but it's 22" deep, 13" wide, 5" tall. Thanks for the info! $300 is more than I want to spend on this one, but I may have to figure out something if my patience starts to run out... Cheers, Aaron From pryor at wi.net Wed Feb 23 16:34:41 2000 From: pryor at wi.net (James Pryor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets Message-ID: <38B46081.A9EE2012@wi.net> Does anyone know of a site listing upcoming swapmeets? I'm interested mainly in the midwest area. Dayton Hamvention? Trenton Computerfest? thanks... Jim From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 17:10:47 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets Message-ID: <20000223231047.7910.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- James Pryor wrote: > Does anyone know of a site listing upcoming swapmeets? > > I'm interested mainly in the midwest area. The best resource I know is the ARRL - http://www.arrl.com/hamfests.html You can search by region or State. > Dayton Hamvention? http://www.hamvention.org/ > Trenton Computerfest? Dunno... never been. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain goes away on 15 March. See http://www.infinet.com/ for details. Please update your address lists to reflect my new address: erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Wed Feb 23 17:13:06 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets In-Reply-To: <38B46081.A9EE2012@wi.net> Message-ID: <000001bf7e53$8b710b10$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> James Pryor said: > Does anyone know of a site ... Trenton Here's one for Ya: Trenton Computer Festival May 6th & 7th, 2000 "the oldest, largest, and best computer show" http://www.tcf-nj.org/ John A. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of James Pryor Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 5:35 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets Does anyone know of a site listing upcoming swapmeets? I'm interested mainly in the midwest area. Dayton Hamvention? Trenton Computerfest? thanks... Jim From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Feb 23 22:13:47 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets In-Reply-To: <38B46081.A9EE2012@wi.net> Message-ID: Hello James On 23-Feb-00, you wrote: > Does anyone know of a site listing upcoming swapmeets? > > I'm interested mainly in the midwest area. > > Dayton Hamvention? > > Trenton Computerfest? > > thanks... Jim > Get a copy or subscription to Nuts and Volts: www.nutsvolts.com or email editor@nutsvolts.com 1-800783-4624 subs only Well worth the money Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP amigaphile and boatanchor collector From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Wed Feb 23 17:36:31 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Machines available, Birmingham UK. Message-ID: <011601bf7e56$f64d1fc0$cde993c3@proteus> Hi Due to the arrival of an RS/6000 and another MicroVAX II I really need to get rid of the following gear....quickly! Available free, or in exchange for stuff I can use (email me for a copy of the wants list): 3Com 3Station x2 286 based, PC compatible diskless workstations. Acorn BBC Model B Apple file://e CBM +4 Complete system, including tapes and cartridges. CBM C-16 Machine only. CBM PET 4032 (small screen) CBM PET 4032 (large screen) CBM PET 8032 x2 CBM PET 8096 C/W 8050 drives, 8032P printer, software & manuals. DEC DECMate III IBM PC System Units NCR system Integral monitor, printer and tape drive. Tandy CoCo II Complete with a couple of cartridges. There may also be a bunch of other stuff to come too, depending on whether people who previously showed an interest still want it. Email me directly please, let's not clog up the list with this. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Feb 23 19:22:43 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets In-Reply-To: <38B46081.A9EE2012@wi.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000223202243.274f9072@mailhost.intellistar.net> Jim, Nuts N Volts website has a list of hamfests. I think the ARRL has a website with a list also. Don't rely on a single list, they're usually not complete. Joe At 04:34 PM 2/23/00 -0600, you wrote: >Does anyone know of a site listing upcoming swapmeets? > >I'm interested mainly in the midwest area. > >Dayton Hamvention? > >Trenton Computerfest? > >thanks... Jim > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Feb 23 19:25:47 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Nuts N Volts Re: Computer/Ham Swapmeets In-Reply-To: References: <38B46081.A9EE2012@wi.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000223202547.274f6a62@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:13 PM 2/23/00 -0500, Gary wrote: >Hello James > >On 23-Feb-00, you wrote: > >> Does anyone know of a site listing upcoming swapmeets? >> >> I'm interested mainly in the midwest area. >> >> Dayton Hamvention? >> >> Trenton Computerfest? >> >> thanks... Jim >> >Get a copy or subscription to Nuts and Volts: > >www.nutsvolts.com or email editor@nutsvolts.com > >1-800783-4624 subs only > >Well worth the money Save your money and get a subscription while you're at the hamfest. It costs half as much there as it does by mail order. Don't ask me why. You don't have to be a subscrber to look up the hamfest list on their website. Joe > > >Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP > >amigaphile and boatanchor collector > > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Feb 23 18:32:00 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets In-Reply-To: <20000223231047.7910.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Feb 23, 2000 03:10:47 pm" Message-ID: <200002240032.TAA08221@bg-tc-ppp876.monmouth.com> > > > --- James Pryor wrote: > > Does anyone know of a site listing upcoming swapmeets? > > > > I'm interested mainly in the midwest area. > > The best resource I know is the ARRL - http://www.arrl.com/hamfests.html > > You can search by region or State. > > > Dayton Hamvention? > > http://www.hamvention.org/ > > > Trenton Computerfest? > > Dunno... never been. > > -ethan > Used to be the greatest show around... It's fallen on hard times over the past years -- far to pc centric in the flea market these days. Bill From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Feb 23 19:13:38 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Thrift store finds... References: Message-ID: <001601bf7e64$62e3f840$d3711fd1@default> Great finds !!! I too look for the Mac clone items which are hard to find. A friend did pick up a Power Computing Power100 for me at a thrift store for $10. It works great. ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 4:18 PM Subject: Thrift store finds... > Book day today...I passed up 15 books I would have liked to have but was > too stingy to shell out the $$$ for. What I did pick up is: > > Electronic data Processing, E. Wainright Martin, 1961. > > Intel Microprocessor and Peripheral Handbook, vol.2, 1987. > > 68000 Assembly Language Programming, Kane/Hawkins/Leventhal, 1981. > > Motorola MC68020 User's Manual, 1984. > > > I also grabbed a couple of genuine Apple mousepads and a Macally clone > keyboard for $2. They also had an HP terminal keyboard, but no terminal. > I'm keeping my eyes open... > > > Cheers, > > Aaron > > From oliv555 at arrl.net Wed Feb 23 19:37:11 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets References: <38B46081.A9EE2012@wi.net> Message-ID: <38B48B47.6D00FE97@arrl.net> James Pryor wrote: > Does anyone know of a site listing upcoming swapmeets? > Does anyone know when the Foothill (Palo Alto) meet comes off of its winter hiatus? I'd like to get to the seasons opening event. For those interested in SoCal events try: www.ac6v.com/pageag.html Thanks, Nick From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Feb 23 22:24:40 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets In-Reply-To: Nick Oliviero's message of "Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:37:11 -0600" References: <38B46081.A9EE2012@wi.net> <38B48B47.6D00FE97@arrl.net> Message-ID: <200002240424.UAA68405@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Nick Oliviero wrote: > Does anyone know when the Foothill (Palo Alto) meet comes off of > its winter hiatus? I'd like to get to the seasons opening event. If past years are any guide, I'd guess it would be 11 March. (2nd Saturday of the month, March through October.) -Frank McConnell From KB9VU at aol.com Thu Feb 24 06:00:51 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets Message-ID: <54.191a159.25e67773@aol.com> Dayton is May 19, 20 and 21 From west at tseinc.com Thu Feb 24 06:47:18 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Mail servers changes (INFO) Message-ID: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> Greetings; We have recently made changes to our mail servers here that may possibly affect some list users. In our ongoing effort to limit SPAM, our mail servers were recently configured to utilitize the MAPS RBL, DUL, and RSS databases (see www.mail-abuse.org for details). Entities that send spam typically make use of mail servers that are improperly configured in such a way as to allow relaying (ie. they are "open relays"). This means that these problem mail servers are often used to bounce mail off of and redistribute spam. Our mail servers have been configured to properly reject mail that is neither from or to a "local" address for many years. However, if our users (or any domains we host, including classiccmp.org) are on the spammers mailing list we have not been able to reject that spam in the past because the target address was both valid and local. By utilizing MAPS, any inbound mail is checked to see if it originated from a system or network that is known to be an open relay - if so, the message is rejected. Thus not only are we not an open relay, but we will refuse to accept or send mail that is from or to any system that is an open relay. That is the function of RBL and RSS; DUL is a blacklist of non-open relays that are however known originators of spam. You can check the above URL for details, but the basic gist is that when anyone on the internet receives junk mail via an open relay, they can submit the open relay's IP address to the MAPS database. The MAPS folks will test the server and if problematic they'll contact the administrator for that system and ask them to fix their open relay. If they do not fix the system within 5 days, they are added to the maps database. Once the administrator fixes the open relay their system is retested by MAPS and if compliant it is removed from the database. Our mail servers will not accept mail from or deliver mail to any system in the MAPS database. You can tell if you've encountered this by your message being returned to you with a note clearly stating that your message was rejected due to RBL, DUL, or open-relays. As you may gather, this does open the possibility of "throwing the baby out with the bath water". If your ISP has an open relay, we will not accept your mail. In this case you need to call your ISP and ask them to fix their mail server security deficiency. If one of your ISP's other customers is a source of spam, it is somewhat possible your ISP will be blocked (which albeit unfairly blocks you). This generally isn't much of a problem because most ISP's are very responsive to requests from MAPS. After weighing these issues we decided that there's no reason that our servers should have to converse with other servers that are known to be insecure or frequent sources of spam. We really really really dislike spam, and feel that this action is wholly appropriate. Regards, Jay West From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Feb 24 07:35:29 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000224053529.0094a200@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 06:47 24-02-2000 -0600, you wrote: >Greetings; > >We have recently made changes to our mail servers here that may possibly >affect some list users. In our ongoing effort to limit SPAM, our mail >servers were recently configured to utilitize the MAPS RBL, DUL, and RSS >databases (see www.mail-abuse.org for details). Good news, Jay, thanks much for the update. FWIW, I wholly agree with this course of action. In fact, I plan to configure my own mail server(s) in a similar way (if USWorst ever gets their act together and gets DSL out here!) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Feb 24 07:44:26 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Soldering to PCB traces? Message-ID: <13526256195.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I have here a perfectly good SCSI device I'd like to use, it's just that the +12V pin in the power connector has broken off. Can I just solder another pin right on the trace on the PCB, or is there some sealer over the traces? (Or anything else I should know about?) ------- From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Feb 24 07:56:11 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: FW: MicroVAX II hardware available Message-ID: <61eabs4v5nblcnf48amr2bdi726iiijki0@4ax.com> Found on Usenet. Anyone in or near the Czech republic want to do a rescue? (Hey, one never knows!) Reply to sender directly if interested. -=-=- -=-=- From: "lm" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: MicroVAX II for sale Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:34:54 +0100 Organization: Compaq Computer Corp. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <893c1q$3je$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 16.193.136.44 X-Trace: mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com 951399290 3694 16.193.136.44 (24 Feb 2000 13:34:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Feb 2000 13:34:50 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: news.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!sdd.hp.com!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsgate.tandem.com!mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com!not-for-mail Xref: news.jps.net comp.os.vms:8076 Dear Sir, I recieved data from one small company in our region in Czech Rep., which is selling their computers. This computers are eight years old and it`s MicroVAX II with spare part. They are looking for a customer, that wants buy this MicroVAX II or spare parts. Below you can find part numbers of this spare parts : 2 x TU81E-DB 3000 MASS-STORAGE 4 x RA82-ED 3261 RA82 622MB 14 inch SDI-DISKS 1 x KDA50-QA 3452 KDA50 MICROVAX2/PDP11 TO RA-DISKS Q-BUS CONTR. 1 x TK70-AA 3360 TF/K70 296MB, 90KB/S (NON)/DSSI DLT TAPE-DRIVE - 5.25" CARTRIDGE TAPE DRIVE WITH TK5 1 x TQK70-AA 3360 TF/K70 296MB, 90KB/S (NON)/DSSI DLT TAPE-DRIVE - Q22 TMSCP CNTLR FOR TK70-AA,30" CAB 1 x DHQ11-M 5456 DHQ11/ 8 LINE ASYNC COMM CTLR 1 x KA630-AA 2450 MicroVAX II - QUAD Q22 MICROVAX CPU MODULE: CPU,F 1 x MS630-AA 2450 MicroVAX II - 1 MB MEM EXP FOR KA630,DUAL HEIGHT 1 x DELQA-M 5460 DELQA/ COMM CTLR ETH TO Q-BUS - DEC ETHERNET QBUS ADAPTOR If you have interest about this offer, please contact Mr. Holan tel.: ++420-602-239252 or e-mail : DECOMP@email.cz or ludek.mrkva@compaq.com Best Regards Ludek Mrkva -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 24 08:57:42 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: <200002241358.OAA15140@mail2.siemens.de> > We have recently made changes to our mail servers here that may possibly > affect some list users. In our ongoing effort to limit SPAM, our mail > servers were recently configured to utilitize the MAPS RBL, DUL, and RSS > databases (see www.mail-abuse.org for details). > [...] (ie. they are "open relays"). [...] > [...] We really really really dislike spam, and feel that this action is > wholly appropriate. First of all, I realy apreciate your efforts to reduce SPAM, and I feel that choosing your system was a real good isea. Just, I have a bad feeling about droping esential parts of free networking - the shareing of resources. Only because some Jerks missuse them. It's like puting an expiration date on the driver licence and ask for renewal just because some guys like to drive slow on the left lane. Or to ban free speech just because some idiots don't know eht hey say ? Hmm I guess I have a hard time to tell my view in English. I just feel bad about the very basic idea. Gruss H. Testing 1, 2, 3 :) -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/VCFe http://www.homecomputer.de/VCFe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 24 08:08:07 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (J.R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: test Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000224090807.007ca320@mailhost.intellistar.net> test William Roberts Certified TCP/IP Network Analyst ---------------------------------------------- IntelliSTAR(sm) Exclusive Provider of Internet LifeCycle Services(sm) http://www.intellistar.net - mailto:willr@intellistar.net 407-206-0788 - 407-206-0826 FAX Providing Residence for Professionals on the Internet(sm), Est. 1995 ---------------------------------------------- From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Feb 24 08:12:24 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Soldering to PCB traces? In-Reply-To: <13526256195.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000224061224.0094a1c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 05:44 24-02-2000 -0800, you wrote: >I have here a perfectly good SCSI device I'd like to use, it's just that >the +12V pin in the power connector has broken off. Can I just solder another >pin right on the trace on the PCB, or is there some sealer over the traces? >(Or anything else I should know about?) There may be solder mask (easily scraped off), but beneath it you should just be dealing with regular tinned copper. Be sure to make a solid connection! The +12V lead in most disk drives supplies the spindle motor, and that means lots of milliamps (or outright amps in many cases). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Feb 24 08:35:55 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets In-Reply-To: <38B48B47.6D00FE97@arrl.net> Message-ID: <000201bf7ed4$763710b0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Nick Oliviero said: > Does anyone know when the Foothill... Did somebody say Foothill?? Found these references: Silicon Valley Surplus Sources v1.8 http://www.kce.com/junk.htm Good stores list, has a link to Foothill (don't use it, outdated) but Also has a link to the following (use it): Bruce Lane's (Sunny) California Swaps and Stores Page http://www.bluefeathertech.com/technoid/calswap.html Has a Huge entry for Foothill. John A. From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Feb 24 08:44:23 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Masstor data cartridges Message-ID: Hi all I just found 3 packages of Masstor data cartridges. They are cylindrical about 2 1/2 inches in diameter, about 4 inches long and look to be covered with some sort of oxide surface. They are hollow and have a kind of snap in connector on one end. I have examined the Web and the only references I find are for large mass storage devices for supercomputer and particle accelerator labs. I seem to remember, from some movie, some sort of robot arm storage device that picked cylindrical cartridges out of a honeycomb structure and inserted them in to a reader/writer. Very large storage, about 360 GB, late 80's early 90's time frame. Any information would be approciated Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From classiccmp at mrynet.com Thu Feb 24 00:58:53 2000 From: classiccmp at mrynet.com (Classic Computer Mailing List) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Mail servers changes (INFO) Message-ID: <200002241458.GAA97476@mrynet.com> Hans Franke wrote: > > > We have recently made changes to our mail servers here that may possibly > > affect some list users. In our ongoing effort to limit SPAM, our mail > > servers were recently configured to utilitize the MAPS RBL, DUL, and RSS > > databases (see www.mail-abuse.org for details). > > [...] (ie. they are "open relays"). [...] > > [...] We really really really dislike spam, and feel that this action is > > wholly appropriate. > > First of all, I realy apreciate your efforts to reduce SPAM, > and I feel that choosing your system was a real good isea. > > Just, I have a bad feeling about droping esential parts of > free networking - the shareing of resources. Only because > some Jerks missuse them. It's like puting an expiration > date on the driver licence and ask for renewal just because > some guys like to drive slow on the left lane. Or to ban > free speech just because some idiots don't know eht hey say ? I wholeheartedly support this MAPS RBL, et al, blocking. The simple fact-of-the-matter is, open relays are wrong. They are the result of bad administration and serve no purpose other than to provide spammers the mechanism to operate anonymously. Performing this SPAM blocking not only protects the subscribers of a list from the resultant abuse of mismanaged mail servers, it forces legitimate operators of mail systems to properly administrate their machines. If a subscriber finds themselves receiving reject responses to their submissions, they should receive within the reject reason a reference to the URL for the service which has listed them or their mail relay as a SPAM source or Open Relay. The submitter should either correct their local problem, or notify their ISP or mail server administration of the issue. The SPAM/anti-relay database servers all provide for quick and fair consideration for removal from these lists once the blocking issue is resolved. To say that this will "ban free speech" is totally unwarranted. There is absolutely no reason for an open relay EXCEPT to facilitate spam. The InterNet is much too sophisticated for any claim of necessity for such a facility. Anonymity is not a factor in Free Speech. I applaud this action, and encourage everyone with the ability to have their mail agents interract with the MAPS RBL, and other databases, to fully support and integrate this spam-blocking service. Respectfully, Scott G. Taylor -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor@mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor@mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 24 10:27:39 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <200002241458.GAA97476@mrynet.com> Message-ID: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> > > > We have recently made changes to our mail servers here that may possibly > > > affect some list users. In our ongoing effort to limit SPAM, our mail > > > servers were recently configured to utilitize the MAPS RBL, DUL, and RSS > > > databases (see www.mail-abuse.org for details). > > > [...] (ie. they are "open relays"). [...] > > > [...] We really really really dislike spam, and feel that this action is > > > wholly appropriate. > > First of all, I realy apreciate your efforts to reduce SPAM, > > and I feel that choosing your system was a real good idea. > > Just, I have a bad feeling about droping esential parts of > > free networking - the shareing of resources. Only because > > some Jerks missuse them. It's like puting an expiration > > date on the driver licence and ask for renewal just because > > some guys like to drive slow on the left lane. Or to bann > > free speech just because some idiots don't know what they say ? > I wholeheartedly support this MAPS RBL, et al, blocking. > The simple fact-of-the-matter is, open relays are wrong. They are > the result of bad administration and serve no purpose other than > to provide spammers the mechanism to operate anonymously. > Performing this SPAM blocking not only protects the subscribers of > a list from the resultant abuse of mismanaged mail servers, it forces > legitimate operators of mail systems to properly administrate their > machines. What's proper or not is a matter of opinion, and in my mind open relays are a basic part of the mail system. > To say that this will "ban free speech" is totally unwarranted. > There is absolutely no reason for an open relay EXCEPT to facilitate > spam. The InterNet is much too sophisticated for any claim of > necessity for such a facility. Anonymity is not a factor in Free > Speech. Two things: Fisrt if you go up there and read again, I didn't say this will bann free speech, I did it compare to that issue, since it is related. But I can agree - in the very last consequence it is exacty that. Any action that is able to supress a single voice will do so and is therefore to avoide at all circumstances. And restricting access is one of them. The net has proven that it can handle trouble without influence and without building up controll structures etc. THings like the UDP http://www.stopspam.org/usenet/faqs/udp.html work quite fine without seting up general barriers. And no 'propper' configuration will ever stop SPAM - maybe reduce the likelyness, but I'm not willing to pay the price. All you need is a series of small 'improving' steps to jump the cliff. Abuse will exist as long as man exists, but here are more ways to handle this stuff. Sorry for the rant, but it just touches some very basic ideas of mine. Servus Hans P.S.: Great to have list members from .lv :) I hope to have again time to visit your county this year. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/VCFe http://www.homecomputer.de/VCFe From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Wed Feb 23 19:32:01 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: HP 9816 Re: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: <"Peter Pachla"'s message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2000 02:25:18 -0000"><200001262244218.SM00188@kernst><3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net><048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus><3.0.1.16.20000207100119.3e47fa9a@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.20000222085042.3c0f02b0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000001bf7ee3$fad98aa0$8e9493c3@proteus> Hi Joe, >....a 9816 sitting on top of a HP 9121 or 9122 disk drive.... Had a look, unfortunately that terminal looks nothing at all like the one I was thinking of. Thanks for the pointer though. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 24 10:26:22 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Soldering to PCB traces? References: <13526256195.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <38B55BAE.EEC871AF@rain.org> "Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote: > > I have here a perfectly good SCSI device I'd like to use, it's just that > the +12V pin in the power connector has broken off. Can I just solder another > pin right on the trace on the PCB, or is there some sealer over the traces? > (Or anything else I should know about?) Aside from Bruce's comments, I would add that you need to make sure there is no stress placed on the trace after soldering. The bond strength of the copper to the laminate is not very great, and it is quite possible to pull the trace off. From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Feb 24 10:41:44 2000 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Mail servers changes (INFO) References: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> Jay West wrote: > > Greetings; > > We have recently made changes to our mail servers here that may possibly > affect some list users. In our ongoing effort to limit SPAM, our mail > servers were recently configured to utilitize the MAPS RBL, DUL, and RSS > databases (see www.mail-abuse.org for details). > > Entities that send spam typically make use of mail servers that are > improperly configured in such a way as to allow relaying (ie. they are "open > relays"). This means that these problem mail servers are often used to > bounce mail off of and redistribute spam. Our mail servers have been > configured to properly reject mail that is neither from or to a "local" > address for many years. However, if our users (or any domains we host, > including classiccmp.org) are on the spammers mailing list we have not been > able to reject that spam in the past because the target address was both > valid and local. By utilizing MAPS, any inbound mail is checked to see if it > originated from a system or network that is known to be an open relay - if > so, the message is rejected. Thus not only are we not an open relay, but we > will refuse to accept or send mail that is from or to any system that is an > open relay. That is the function of RBL and RSS; DUL is a blacklist of > non-open relays that are however known originators of spam. > > You can check the above URL for details, but the basic gist is that when > anyone on the internet receives junk mail via an open relay, they can submit > the open relay's IP address to the MAPS database. The MAPS folks will test > the server and if problematic they'll contact the administrator for that > system and ask them to fix their open relay. If they do not fix the system > within 5 days, they are added to the maps database. Once the administrator > fixes the open relay their system is retested by MAPS and if compliant it is > removed from the database. Our mail servers will not accept mail from or > deliver mail to any system in the MAPS database. You can tell if you've > encountered this by your message being returned to you with a note clearly > stating that your message was rejected due to RBL, DUL, or open-relays. > > As you may gather, this does open the possibility of "throwing the baby out > with the bath water". If your ISP has an open relay, we will not accept your > mail. In this case you need to call your ISP and ask them to fix their mail > server security deficiency. If one of your ISP's other customers is a source > of spam, it is somewhat possible your ISP will be blocked (which albeit > unfairly blocks you). This generally isn't much of a problem because most > ISP's are very responsive to requests from MAPS. After weighing these issues > we decided that there's no reason that our servers should have to converse > with other servers that are known to be insecure or frequent sources of > spam. We really really really dislike spam, and feel that this action is > wholly appropriate. > > Regards, > > Jay West I don't believe in RBL's etc. to combat spammers. I prefer a baseball bat. They don't learn anything from it, they're too goddam stupid, but it makes me feel better. Seriously, there are valid reasons to use or offer an open relay, and there are other technical means to deal with spam, which are improving with time. The MAPS RBL throws the baby out with the bathwater, and smacks of moral cowardice, hypocracy bolstering the egos of the net.nazis pushing it on everyone, to boot. I feel that strongly about it. I'd much rather let my mail system filter the spam out than have my options restricted by a pack of dissimulating busybodies, whose motives I question when all their actions appear to be dirty work designed to artificially bolster the hegemony of the big ISPs. Nevertheless, it's not my list, and it's up to you, Jay, as the administrator, to run it as you see fit. I implore you, though, NOT to use the DUL, at least, as this just flat out discriminates against those of us who are forced by circumstance to run our mail servers on dial-up dynamic IPs. No one has to complain to anyone that you have spammed. The DUL simply collects all the known major ISP dynamic IP ranges preemptively. This just isn't fair. They hide this in the fine print, and then pass the blame to you, the sysadmin. (Oh, WE didn't block your mail, complain to Jay West. (How, if he's blocking your mail?)) I've lost out on at least one multi-thousand dollar deal because of this nonsense. How Vixie lets his name be used for this crap is beyond me. If you were trying to generate as much tension and animosity amongst users and administrators as possible, you couldn't do a better job. Doesn't anyone else see what's wrong with this picture? It's not fair to me, you, or the average list reader, no matter how much mealy-mouthed propaganda we're all fed. My intention is not to start flames. I'd go to n.a.n.a.e for that. I realize that mine is not a popular opinion- it's totally against the recieved wisdom from the net.gods and issue-milking politicians- but it's a valid one, and I had to put my 2 cents in. Sincerely, James B. DiGriz From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 24 11:00:07 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Soldering to PCB traces? In-Reply-To: <38B55BAE.EEC871AF@rain.org> Message-ID: > Aside from Bruce's comments, I would add that you need to make sure there is > no stress placed on the trace after soldering. The bond strength of the > copper to the laminate is not very great, and it is quite possible to pull > the trace off. You may have to scrape the solder mask off to get a good connection, use minimal heat. When done clean well and it's not a bad idea to put a drop of epoxy on the area and maybe the back of the connector (where the pin goes through the board) to support it. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 24 11:17:19 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: > My intention is not to start flames. I'd go to n.a.n.a.e for that. I > realize that mine is not a popular opinion- it's totally against the > recieved wisdom from the net.gods and issue-milking politicians- but > it's a valid one, and I had to put my 2 cents in. > > Sincerely, > James B. DiGriz My $.02. I Have used the same ISP for over 7 years and the username is well worn but every time there is a security hole or some list also echos to to the newsgroups I get spammed to death. I get tired of updating procmail to get rid of UCE and Pornspam! It's so bad that I've put some domains in there so if someone send me legitimate mail I don't see it. Now I'm on some dammed opt-inbroacasts list that I didn't ask for and I don't think 12-15 spams (not including duplicates) is acceptable. ANYTHING that makes if harder for spammers is fine by me. I don't think I have to be burdened with the load of filtering that crap or doing maintenance on it because some spammer things it's a good thing. Servers are private property, Someone owns it, pays for the juice and while it's reasonable to support some free activity there is a point where stopping misuse and outright abuse of the server is not unreasonable. If I were on the net I'd be mighty PO'd if someone were using the server for profit (transport of advertizing) and not sharing the cost of the hardware and admin time. Allison From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 24 12:28:57 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:09 2005 Subject: Soldering to PCB traces? In-Reply-To: <13526256195.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000224132857.3ecff5b8@mailhost.intellistar.net> Dan, None of us have any way of knowing there is sealer over the traces. You'll have to look for yourself. Scrape it with a sharp knife and see if you get copper or a sealer. IMO it's not a good idea to solder the pin to the trace, there's just too much leverage on a pin to expect it to hold. I'd just solder a wire to the trace and solder the other end to the pin and then plug the pin into it's mating socket and let it hang free. Be sure and insulate everything. Joe At 05:44 AM 2/24/00 -0800, you wrote: >I have here a perfectly good SCSI device I'd like to use, it's just that >the +12V pin in the power connector has broken off. Can I just solder another >pin right on the trace on the PCB, or is there some sealer over the traces? >(Or anything else I should know about?) >------- > From pat at transarc.ibm.com Thu Feb 24 11:39:06 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: IBM 4381 92E on eBay Message-ID: See http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=267844859 --Pat. From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Feb 24 11:42:28 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: (OT) Re: Mail servers changes (INFO) References: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <38B56D84.F9916279@mainecoon.com> "James B. DiGriz" wrote: [stuff deleted] > Nevertheless, it's not my list, and it's up to you, Jay, as the > administrator, to run it as you see fit. I implore you, though, NOT to > use the DUL, at least, as this just flat out discriminates against those > of us who are forced by circumstance to run our mail servers on dial-up > dynamic IPs. No one has to complain to anyone that you have spammed. The > DUL simply collects all the known major ISP dynamic IP ranges > preemptively. This just isn't fair. They hide this in the fine print, > and then pass the blame to you, the sysadmin. (Oh, WE didn't block your > mail, complain to Jay West. (How, if he's blocking your mail?)) I've > lost out on at least one multi-thousand dollar deal because of this > nonsense. In our case, on advise of corporate counsel, we've actually relaxed our anti-smap measures somewhat. We don't have a reason to relay, so we don't, and we still honor RBL, but we've tossed everything else. It's a long and debatable argument, but in essence we've been told that deciding to accept or reject messages based on origin compromises our common carrier status and could effectively make us liable if a downstream user was doing something illegal. Remember, the law, particularly in the US, doesn't really care if something is technically practical; once we demonstrate that we can filter messages in *any* fashion it's trivial to be found liable for a failure to filter in *every* fashion, particularly in a civil action. We decided that no matter how remote the risk we didn't want to be on the hook for some pedophile's on-line activities. Interestingly, the opinion was that it's okay to filter *on behalf of the user*, i.e., if the *user* tells us to filter the mail (or constructs their own filters) then we're off the hook, in the same fashion that calling number block/anonymous caller block can be implemented by the telcos without affecting their CC status. So now we're cooking up a scheme to allow not-terribly-technical users to set procmail filters. Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From west at tseinc.com Thu Feb 24 11:44:22 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Mail servers changes (INFO) References: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <007a01bf7eee$ca01e020$d402a8c0@tse.com> In response to one or two people who voiced complaints about MAPS. First, one or two people said there are valid reasons for running a mail server as an open relay. *BS*. That's not just silly, that's ludicrous. There is no reason to configure your mail server as an open relay unless you are specifically intending to allow SPAM/UCE. Any possible scenario that you can come up with as to why a mail server should be an open relay can easily be addressed with other methods that were specifically designed for those cases. As a matter of fact, most any mail server software is preconfigured by default to disallow relaying (nowadays). Second, I am not keeping anyone who wants to operate an open relay from doing so. They are perfectly free to do it. However, *I* am not obligated to talk to their mail server and put myself at risk. To take the argument to silly levels to illustrate the point. Let's say someone chooses to configure their mail server so that every inbound and outbound piece of email gets a virus attached to it. Fine - I'll defend their right to do that. But I will also defend my right to not converse with their server. I'm not saying folks can't run open relays - I'm just saying I don't have to allow my servers to come in contact with them. Third, the above argument isn't quite as silly as it sounds. You think SPAM isn't on the same level as virii? When spam traffic isn't at denial of service levels, it costs us hundreds of manhours of support. I can't begin to tell you how many calls we get each day from people who have received so much SPAM (or a small amount but the spam has big attachments) that they think their mail isn't working when in fact they're trying to download 200 messages over a slow 33.6k link. We have to go in and manually clean out their mailboxes for them. Not to mention the amount of processor, memory, and disk space it chews up on my servers, or network bandwidth that I have to pay a kings ransom for. And then when the spam hits denial of service levels, it directly affects both my and my customers livelihoods. Mail servers drives fill up or processor usage tops out... etc. etc. and the servers halt. Then my customers can't get the email service they're paying for and my image suffers. Fourth, DUL does not indiscriminately single out users. Only specific addresses that have proven to send (not one or two, but) hundreds of bulk spam and that refused to cease doing so are listed. DUL does not reject mail just because someone has a dynamic IP on their mail server. That argument is plain false. Lastly - I absolutely hate to say this (and do so reluctantly) - and anyone here who knows me knows I'm am not a dictatorial pushy force-my-will type person. I am not a "net-nazi"; many of you recall how hesitant I was to make any decision on my own (re: the reply address argument of several weeks ago) regarding the list. However, in this case I'm truely *VERY* sorry to say apologetically - you don't have a choice. If it was just the list, that'd be a different story but when it affects my entire service, that's my call to make. You are all welcome to discuss the merits/deficiencies of open relays, but our servers will continue to use MAPS. Respectfully, Jay West From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu Feb 24 11:37:20 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Nice article in Wired 8.03 on "Retroactivism" Message-ID: <00bd01bf7eed$cdc5bb60$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> There's a good article in this month's Wired on what they call "retroactivism" - people using trailing edge computers in preference to the latest Wintel box - for all the reasons we're familiar with: stability, well-understood O/Ses, nostalgia, etc. The VCF gets some mention, and several classiccompers (notably Allison Parent) are quoted. A good, balanced article that doesn't have the faintly mocking tone of that other recent article (in the magazine with Rosie the Robot on the cover). Cheers, Mark. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Feb 24 12:11:36 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Masstor data cartridges In-Reply-To: ; from mmcfadden@cmh.edu on Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 08:44:23AM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20000224131136.A12954@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 08:44:23AM -0600, McFadden, Mike wrote: > I seem to remember, from some movie, some sort of robot > arm storage device that picked cylindrical cartridges out of a honeycomb > structure and inserted them in to a reader/writer. Very large storage, > about 360 GB, late 80's early 90's time frame. > Any information would be approciated I can't shed any light except to say that I've heard the same thing. The person who told me about them (and yes this would have been mid/late 80s) had worked for a large IBM mainframe installation (Oklahoma dept. of transportation IIRC, I can't believe there's so much computing to do for that but who knows, he said they had a bunch of 3081s), and he specifically mentioned the robotic picker. I *think* he said the actual storage medium was some kind of filament contained inside the can but I could be wrong. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Feb 24 12:31:05 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: (OT) Re: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <38B56D84.F9916279@mainecoon.com>; from chris@mainecoon.com on Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 09:42:28AM -0800 References: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> <38B56D84.F9916279@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20000224133105.B12954@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 09:42:28AM -0800, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Interestingly, the opinion was that it's okay to filter *on behalf > of the user*, i.e., if the *user* tells us to filter the mail (or > constructs their own filters) then we're off the hook, OK then! Jay -- as a user of this list, I request that you go all-out and put in whatever spam blocks you can. I'm constantly deluged in spam from every side so anything to filter even one possible source is OK by me. UUCP and Bitnet are long gone, the net isn't a cooperative bunch of non-profit institutions scratching each other's backs to get the packets through any more. Every step of the way is paid for by the people using it and it's perfectly reasonable for them to refuse to allow their systems to be used to generate someone else's advertising, *especially* when the intent is not only to steal services, but to hide the thief's identity so they won't be held accountable. This crap about opt-in mailing lists is especially annoying. I've never opted into one of these things in my life, in fact every time anyone asks for my email address when I'm making an order or whatever, I specifically tell them *not* to put me on any mailing lists. But these days most of my spam contains an accusation that I *asked* for it -- I suppose they think this is some kind of legal loophole, they can play dumb and say they *thought* I opted in. I even got one of these from PLX Tech recently, you'd think a reputable IC manufacturer would know better... And these days I keep my fax machine turned off too -- seriously 9 out of 10 faxes I was getting were commercial spam, even though that's a direct violation of the FCC rules (which say that you can't send unsolicited commercial faxes to anyone unless you have an established business relationship with them). Apparently these bozos see my print ads and figure that the reason I thousands per year for the ads is actually because I'm just itching to buy their piles of used monitors, and I want to let them use *my* printer and ink cartridge to print their ads. Usually they leave off the header giving the originating fax number, which is also illegal. What happened to the good old days when this crap only came by snail mail and cost nothing! John Wilson D Bit From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Feb 24 12:58:04 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Need docs for Lemark 4033-001 token ring print server Message-ID: <38B57F3C.D99BE9F6@bigfoot.com> I have 5 Lexmark type 4033-001 print servers for token ring coming to install on a small network for a non-profit group but I don't seem to be able to locate any docs on Lexmark's site. Anyone either know of a URL for a text or PDF file, or have one they could photocopy and mail (with reimbursement of course)??? Russ Blakeman Clarkson, KY From elvey at hal.com Thu Feb 24 13:20:48 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: IBM 4381 92E on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002241920.LAA02535@civic.hal.com> Pat Barron wrote: > See http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=267844859 > > --Pat. > Wow, a full mini. Now if I can only convince PG&E ( local power Co. ) to run 480 3phase to my house. Dwight From cdenham at tgis.co.uk Thu Feb 24 15:21:35 2000 From: cdenham at tgis.co.uk (Christopher Denham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Xerox 3100 free uk In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000224090807.007ca320@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000224090807.007ca320@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: I have just been given a Xerox 3100 computer with 8 inch drive and hard drive , Its big its dirty and its heavy and its not the sort of thing that I collect , So if any body wants it before I drop it in a skip drop me an email at cdenham@tgis.co.uk south of England . Chris Denham From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 24 13:18:38 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Soldering to PCB traces? In-Reply-To: <13526256195.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Feb 24, 0 05:44:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1984 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000224/d590394a/attachment.ksh From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Feb 24 15:46:00 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: AT&T 3B2 model 310 and model 400 in Kansas City Message-ID: AT&T #B2 model 310 and Model 400 I just ran across these two machine along with some sort of AT&T external case that goes with them. The model 400 has a damaged case, I haven't looked inside. Rare, interesting, should I save them? I have read the 3B2 FAQ. Anybody else want them? Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 24 15:15:49 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) References: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <20000224211549.16030.qmail@brouhaha.com> Hans wrote: > What's proper or not is a matter of opinion, and in my mind > open relays are a basic part of the mail system. Can you cite any legitimate use for a completely open relay? I can't think of any. Lacking such examples, I agree with Scott G. Taylor's statement: > The simple fact-of-the-matter is, open relays are wrong. I run a mail server myself, as no doubt do many other list members. I would *NEVER* configure one as an open relay. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 24 15:19:04 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: (OT) Re: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <38B56D84.F9916279@mainecoon.com> (message from Chris Kennedy on Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:42:28 -0800) References: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> <38B56D84.F9916279@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20000224211904.16061.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chris Kennedy wrote: > we've been told that deciding to accept or reject messages based on origin > compromises our common carrier status Possibly. But only if you actually have common carrier status, or can make a credible claim that you should. Have they passed any law granting such status to ISPs? I'd think that would be big news, and I haven't heard of it. From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Feb 24 16:48:54 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: (OT) Re: Mail servers changes (INFO) References: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> <38B56D84.F9916279@mainecoon.com> <20000224211904.16061.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <38B5B556.1ECD27B0@mainecoon.com> Eric Smith wrote: > > Chris Kennedy wrote: > > we've been told that deciding to accept or reject messages based on origin > > compromises our common carrier status > > Possibly. But only if you actually have common carrier status, or can > make a credible claim that you should. Have they passed any law granting > such status to ISPs? I'd think that would be big news, and I haven't > heard of it. We and most other ISPs advance the argument that we are not responsible for the content which passes through our infrastructure, arguing that we are the bit-shipping analog to telcos -- and hence should have the same indemnification from acts of our subscribers which might be criminally or civilly actionable. Of course we add explicit indemnification language to our subscription agreements as well. Is there a legislative CC mandate? No. Has this argument been used successfully in court? According to counsel, yes. Would the argument be as effective if we demonstrate the ability to filter objectionable material on behalf of our subscribers but without their explicit direction or consent? Probably not, because the telcos don't do so. I'm not sure that I completely subscribe to that position, but we pay these people for their legal opinions because they're supposed to know more about telecommunications law than we do. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 24 17:28:57 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Card identification required. Message-ID: <20000224232857.71963.qmail@hotmail.com> I have just recently picked up a Tandy Color Computer 3 (which I have nicknamed "Spectrum") at a local thrift store. After opening it up, I found an internal card plugged into some connectors on the system board. The card does not look to be a Tandy add-on. The unknown board bears a name of "DISTO CANADA" & has 16 Mitsubishi M5M4256P chips on it. What is this card? Is it some sort of internal RAM expander or internal disk controller card? Any help would be more than welcome. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, Double FDD, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 24 18:40:05 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: AT&T 3B2 model 310 and model 400 in Kansas City In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000224194005.4bc7a46a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Steve Robertson might be interested. I gave him my two 3B2 310s and a big pile of docs. Where are your's located. Joe At 03:46 PM 2/24/00 -0600, you wrote: >AT&T #B2 model 310 and Model 400 >I just ran across these two machine along with some sort of AT&T external >case that goes with them. The model 400 has a damaged case, I haven't >looked inside. Rare, interesting, should I save them? I have read the 3B2 >FAQ. Anybody else want them? >Mike >mmcfadden@cmh.edu > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 24 17:39:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Card identification required. In-Reply-To: <20000224232857.71963.qmail@hotmail.com> from "David Vohs" at Feb 24, 0 11:28:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 852 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000224/04438324/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 24 17:42:50 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: (OT) Re: Mail servers changes (INFO) Message-ID: <200002242342.SAA26618@world.std.com> <> Possibly. But only if you actually have common carrier status, or can <> make a credible claim that you should. Have they passed any law grantin <> such status to ISPs? I'd think that would be big news, and I haven't <> heard of it. Common carrier status is often implied as part fo a generic communications service. I had to deal with this 30 years ago with RCC(radio common carrier) otherwise known as UHF repeaters. We were if anything indirectly responseable for FCC language mandates if not by law certainly by possible civil penelty. So if we had a customer that tended to run a little hard with a seven deadly dirty words it was a risk to us as well. So it was a condition of service or else... Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 24 17:11:02 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: (OT) Re: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <200002242342.SAA26618@world.std.com> (message from Allison J Parent on Thu, 24 Feb 2000 18:42:50 -0500 (EST)) References: <200002242342.SAA26618@world.std.com> Message-ID: <20000224231102.16907.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > Common carrier status is often implied as part fo a generic communications > service. I had to deal with this 30 years ago with RCC(radio common > carrier) otherwise known as UHF repeaters. We were if anything indirectly > responseable for FCC language mandates if not by law certainly by possible > civil penelty. So if we had a customer that tended to run a little hard > with a seven deadly dirty words it was a risk to us as well. So it was a > condition of service or else... If you were a Common Carrier, the material transmitted by your customers would not be your problem. If you had to police it, you were NOT a Common Carrier. From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 24 18:21:19 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Card identification required. Message-ID: <20000225002119.14679.qmail@hotmail.com> >Those chips are 256K*1 DRAMs, so the card is a 512K memory card. My >guess >is that it's a close clone of the Tandy 512K RAM card (there >were several >such cards around when the CoCo 3 was in production), >and that it replaces >the standard 128K RAM on the CPU board (look >for 4 empty 18 pin sockets). > >You therefore have a 512K machine. > >-tony Wow!, I thought it to be a RAM expander, but I'd never thought it would be a 512K card. I'll check the sockets & see if they're empty. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Feb 24 19:55:38 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Masstor data cartridges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000224175414.0245cee0@mcmanis.com> Ahh yes, the waay cool IBM MSS system. Used a robotic arm to pull a cylinder that was then dumped into a reader and transferred _in bulk_ to an attached 3380 disk drive that then was treated like available DASD storage. Extremely cool, very big, and a kick to watch! --Chuck At 08:44 AM 2/24/00 -0600, you wrote: >Hi all >I just found 3 packages of Masstor data cartridges. They are cylindrical >about 2 1/2 inches in diameter, about 4 inches long and look to be covered >with some sort of oxide surface. They are hollow and have a kind of snap in >connector on one end. I have examined the Web and the only references I >find are for large mass storage devices for supercomputer and particle >accelerator labs. I seem to remember, from some movie, some sort of robot >arm storage device that picked cylindrical cartridges out of a honeycomb >structure and inserted them in to a reader/writer. Very large storage, >about 360 GB, late 80's early 90's time frame. >Any information would be approciated > >Mike >mmcfadden@cmh.edu From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Feb 24 20:39:47 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Masstor data cartridges References: <4.2.0.58.20000224175414.0245cee0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <38B5EB73.8C2EABCF@mainecoon.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > > Ahh yes, the waay cool IBM MSS system. Used a robotic arm to pull a > cylinder that was then dumped into a reader and transferred _in bulk_ to an > attached 3380 disk drive that then was treated like available DASD storage. > Extremely cool, very big, and a kick to watch! Did this use the same sort of technology as the '70s MSS? LBL had one attached via homespun hardware to a CDC channel controller that was in turn attached to a 6600. It was an amazing machine, used a robotic arm to select a rectangular container which it sucked up and shot through a Rube Goldbergesque collection of tubes to a reading station. It used rectangular pieces of film which were read optically. Standard equipment for operation of this thing was a broom, since it had an unhappy habit of puking the film bits all over the floor on a regular basis. It was eventually replaced by a robotic tape library (which promptly caught fire). -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Feb 24 22:02:32 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: (OT) Re: Mail servers changes (INFO) References: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> <38B56D84.F9916279@mainecoon.com> <20000224133105.B12954@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <38B5FED8.C625D3C4@idirect.com> >John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 09:42:28AM -0800, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > Interestingly, the opinion was that it's okay to filter *on behalf > > of the user*, i.e., if the *user* tells us to filter the mail (or > > constructs their own filters) then we're off the hook, > OK then! Jay -- as a user of this list, I request that you go all-out and > put in whatever spam blocks you can. Jerome Fine replies: Ditto!!! Please put in whatever spam blocks you can for me as well!! > What happened to the good old days when this crap only came by snail mail and > cost nothing! And cost the advertiser big dollars just for the postage. Now that is what I call an effective filter. In addition, there should be a requirement for reasonable SUBJECT/DATE/FROM/TO portions of every e-mail and any mass spam could easily be checked to see how many (almost) identical messages are being sent if the number of messages with the same "TO:" are being found - especially if the "TO:" is not a valid address to respond to. Finally, I have asked this question in the past. Will every message that includes an attachment have the attachment checked for a virus? In many case, I am loathe to open an attached file if I don't know the person who has sent the e-mail. On some rare occasions, even Netscape seems to send the e-mail as an attachment even though it was not expected. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 24 22:14:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: (OT) Re: Mail servers changes (INFO) Message-ID: <200002250414.XAA19727@world.std.com> <> with a seven deadly dirty words it was a risk to us as well. So it was a <> condition of service or else... < Hi, Stopped by the scrapper today and found this: IBM 3742 Dual Data Station. There's not much left of it, so I grabbed the little nametag off it for my archaic weird stuff to decorate the walls collection, but I'm curious what it is. The only thing I could find (in German, no less) was a mention from 1975 about it having something to do with 8" disks and System/32. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vcf at siconic.com Thu Feb 24 23:22:02 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Software for sale (fwd) Message-ID: Here is someone with a bunch of classic to semi-classic software for sale. Please reply to the original sender. Reply-to: urdahl@telus.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:08:00 -0800 From: Hans and Sharon Urdahl To: vcf@vintage.org Subject: Software for sale Could you please let me know if there is a internet site where I could list these items Thank you. Inventory list of software: Quantity: Packard Bell MS-Dos 4.0 OPERATING 3 1 Combase (c) 1987 Data base communications inc. 8 New Tandy 1000 Cat.no.25-1504 technical referenc manual 1 Tandy 1000 Cat.no.25-1501 MS-Dos reference manual 5 Packard Bell MS-Dos 4.0 SHELL 1 SVGV-UTILITY (disk 1&2) 5" floppy 1 Racal Interlan, Diags and drives for ni 5210 ver 2.0 contains 158-0248-00 24 New Poly-XFR CP/M Comms communications for Rainbow 100 2 VISI CALC.instantly calulates elec.work sheet user's guide for APPLE II&II plus 48k 16 sector 3 AccPac. Accouts receivable 10 AccPac. Accounts payable 8 AccPac. General ledger and financing report 3 Zenith data systems Heath software 3 Olivetti software libary STK 286 5 new Olivetti MS-Dos pc 286 10 new Microsoft M Basic 86 basic interpreter for rainbow 100 4 Rainbow 100 cp/m-86/80 operating system 1 Rainbow 100 user kit 1 Diskette drive head cleaning kit FD-08 Series 2024 5 new Irish 5" floppy 1 Micom Philips 8" floppy 380 Flexible disk caddy for 8" floppy 33 Come Base user guide communication program for IBM PC 2 Packard Bell Modem 2400 BPS reference manual 2 Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Feb 25 01:20:23 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> References: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: I rambled on the messages so far, prepared to post pointed comments pro and con, and then I realized we don't get any spam on this list. Since the list changed to closed, you have to be a member to post, it has eliminated spam that wasn't even much of a problem before. As long as we don't have any active problems I see no reason for further comment. From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Fri Feb 25 02:46:24 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Unknown IBM thingy whatsit References: <20000225044536.62930.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <38B64160.9D5B188E@ix.netcom.com> Will Jennings wrote: > Hi, > Stopped by the scrapper today and found this: IBM 3742 Dual Data Station. > There's not much left of it, so I grabbed the little nametag off it for my > archaic weird stuff to decorate the walls collection, but I'm curious what > it is. The only thing I could find (in German, no less) was a mention from > 1975 about it having something to do with 8" disks and System/32. > > Will J > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com At one point I worked for a Job Training program. In our part of the program we trained people to be keypunch operators. We used machine that were made by TAB corp and consisted of two keyboards, two 8" floppies and 1 CRT (which was displayed in two displays with a mirror arrangement). the two users would sit facing each other with the floppy drive on the right for each. Each with their own keyboard. The machine would accept data from the keyboard and "punch" it to the 8" drives, 80 collumns per record (I think). You could set it up much the same way you could setup a card punch machine (ie it could do alpha or numeric or duplicate fields based on a "programming" record.) It also had a function to compare typed against already entered records for verifacation. From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Feb 25 03:26:22 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Unknown IBM thingy whatsit Message-ID: <39.1aea12b.25e7a4be@aol.com> In a message dated 2/24/2000 8:55:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, xds_sigma7@hotmail.com writes: > IBM 3742 Dual Data Station. 1975 about it having something to do with 8" disks and System/32. A classic example of a huge plastic data entry workstation that resembled a desk for two operators with a couple of small IBM boards in it. 150 pounds of non recyclable plastic, IIRC. Two small 9"? mono monitors & two keyboards for two operators to enter data. Two original IBM 8" disk drives. It has been 10 years since I have seen one so I hope my memory is correct. It was a small business data entry station that could be better done with two terminals. I believe it could be used with the System one besides the /32. I also think you could hook up a printer directly. IBM made things large because it was expected of them. After all in 1975 it couldn't be a real computer peripheral or worth big bucks if it wasn't large. Very poor scrap. 60 Cubic feet of plastic garbage. It definitely is a collectable if complete and you have space for it. I doubt many were saved. The chassis stuck around because 4 of them would fill a dumpster. Paxton From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Feb 25 03:30:04 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Unknown IBM thingy whatsit Message-ID: In a message dated 2/25/2000 1:10:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, rhudson@ix.netcom.com writes: > 1 CRT (which was > displayed in two displays with a mirror arrangement). the two users would > sit > facing each other with the floppy drive on the right for each. Each with > their > own keyboard. I stand corrected. This is true. One monitor with mirrors to two displays. It has been a long time. It was made by IBM. Paxton From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Feb 25 09:32:59 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Unknown IBM thingy whatsit Message-ID: <000225103259.256026d1@trailing-edge.com> >Stopped by the scrapper today and found this: IBM 3742 Dual Data Station. >There's not much left of it, so I grabbed the little nametag off it for my >archaic weird stuff to decorate the walls collection, but I'm curious what >it is. There may not be left of that particular unit, but the IBM 3740 series (of which the 3742 is a variant) lives on today in every PC clone. > The only thing I could find (in German, no less) was a mention from >1975 about it having something to do with 8" disks and System/32. In particular, every PC-clone uses a floppy disk format that's a very direct descendant of the IBM 3740 format. Change the modulation from FM to MFM, up the data rate, and that's all. And at least some of the PC FDC's will read a IBM 3740 format floppy (see the discussions from the past few years in comp.os.cpm about single-density capable FDC's). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From aek at spies.com Fri Feb 25 15:59:19 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200002252159.NAA10478@spies.com> HP 2xxx stuff Just received this from someone who posted a paper tape punch on eBay. I asked if he had anything else. Someone on the East Coast may be able to work something out with him. "From: Craig Smith Reply-To: ip500@roanoke.infi.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Al Kossow Subject: Re: HP 2100 parts References: <200002251910.LAA28768@spies.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Al, No 2100 series stuff available but I do have a fair bit of 21MX and HP 1000 [series E and F] computers and pieces around. Also just hit the motherload on 2100 documentation----binders full! Am in the process of sorting it all out. What are you in need of and are you close enough to Roanoke for some heavy stuff. I've got a number of NICE rack cabinets and a bunch of the big floor model disc drives in storage and rack mount disc controllers. Also 2 or 3 of the 7970?? Reel to Reel data recorders [HEAVY!!]. Lots of 2640 terminals and some of the later terminals for the 3000 series. I'm cleaning out a warehouse full of stuff I recently bought and really am not sure of total numbers of stuff that will be available [or what else is in there] Every day is a new find. Let me know what your looking for and I'll do some digging. Regards, Craig " From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Feb 25 18:29:57 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Halooooo... Message-ID: <4.1.20000225162857.03c7d530@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Hmm, all this talk about anti-spam stuff and then suddenly "poof" I don't hear anything for hours. Wondering what happened.... --Chuck From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Feb 25 20:07:25 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff In-Reply-To: <200002252159.NAA10478@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000225210725.3b675c0c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi All, The owner is in Roanoke, Va. He's been selling^H^H^H^H^H^H^H listing a lot of HP stuff on E-bay. Most of it he knows nothing about and claims that it "appears to work". After some discussion with him, I found that "appears to work" means that the fan comes on but nothing else does! So watch out. Based on my conversations with him, I don't think he's interested in selling anything off of E-bay, unless maybe after it got no bids. He's listed a couple of HP 1000s, a HP 9825 and a HP 9845 that I know of. My $.02 worth, Joe At 01:59 PM 2/25/00 -0800, you wrote: >HP 2xxx stuff > >Just received this from someone who posted a paper tape punch on eBay. >I asked if he had anything else. Someone on the East Coast may be able >to work something out with him. > >"From: Craig Smith >Reply-To: ip500@roanoke.infi.net >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: Al Kossow >Subject: Re: HP 2100 parts >References: <200002251910.LAA28768@spies.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Hi Al, >No 2100 series stuff available but I do have a fair bit of 21MX and >HP 1000 [series E and F] computers and pieces around. Also just hit the >motherload on 2100 documentation----binders full! Am in the process of >sorting it all out. What are you in need of and are you close enough to >Roanoke for some heavy stuff. I've got a number of NICE rack cabinets >and a bunch of the big floor model disc drives in storage and rack mount >disc controllers. Also 2 or 3 of the 7970?? Reel to Reel >data recorders [HEAVY!!]. Lots of 2640 terminals and some of the later >terminals for the 3000 series. > >I'm cleaning out a warehouse full of stuff I recently bought and really >am not sure of total numbers of stuff that will be available [or what >else is in there] Every day is a new find. Let me know what your looking >for and I'll do some digging. > > Regards, Craig > >" > From dogas at leading.net Fri Feb 25 18:48:32 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <000f01bf7ff3$602ff780$ca646464@dogclient01> Hi everyone, What a cool day. I woke up to a beautiful Florida morning and hopped in the car and drove to Orlando and met Joe to 'hit the spots' (Thanks for comming out to play, Joe!) One stop yielded a Motorola EXORcisor chassis(woo hoo!), two ASR-32's with tape r/w er's , and a 20 slot crate based on a General Micro Systems 6502/6802/6809/z80 sbc/card (currently with the 6809 module installed. It has ports for pinter, i/o, rs232, and ieee-488) from circa 83 maybe...with other cards including a Smoke Signal Broadcasting DCB-4E, a Digalog Systems 64k mem,. a Digalog Systems T Buss Controller, and a few other ufo's. Anyone know anything about this one? Also obtained on the trip: a pdp 11/05 that has the front panel, an ICE sytem for Intel's 960/20, several boards with memory and a few with some Am2901 processors, and a Fourth Cartridge (and entire setup) for a Commie 64. I saw alot of interesting things that didn't come home with me (...yet... ;)) letsee.... The coolest was probably the Univac 1540. Never seen one before, it had a lot of dings but *GREAT* front panallage and full headdress. Wish someone would save that one. Something else I almost picked up was an Intel GUIO MCS-51 thingy that I'm sure will cause regret in time. Well, guess I'll go play... ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From aek at spies.com Fri Feb 25 19:42:57 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff Message-ID: <200002260142.RAA28148@spies.com> " Based on my conversations with him, I don't think he's interested in selling anything off of E-bay" My 'favorite' line from eBay sellers is "If you're interested in something, let me know and I'll list it on eBay" No, pinhead, you give me a price, and I say 'yes' or 'no' to it... From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Fri Feb 25 19:44:46 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F06AB51DD@ALFEXC5> Where's the UNIVAC? Is there any possibility of a rescue on it? -- Tony > ---------- > From: Mike[SMTP:dogas@leading.net] > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 7:48 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: A classic classiccmp day... > > Hi everyone, > > What a cool day. I woke up to a beautiful Florida morning and hopped in > the car and drove to Orlando and met Joe to 'hit the spots' (Thanks for > comming out to play, Joe!) > > One stop yielded a Motorola EXORcisor chassis(woo hoo!), two ASR-32's > with > tape r/w er's , and a 20 slot crate based on a General Micro Systems > 6502/6802/6809/z80 sbc/card (currently with the 6809 module installed. It > has ports for pinter, i/o, rs232, and ieee-488) from circa 83 > maybe...with > other cards including a Smoke Signal Broadcasting DCB-4E, a Digalog > Systems > 64k mem,. a Digalog Systems T Buss Controller, and a few other ufo's. > Anyone know anything about this one? > > Also obtained on the trip: a pdp 11/05 that has the front panel, an ICE > sytem for Intel's 960/20, several boards with memory and a few with some > Am2901 processors, and a Fourth Cartridge (and entire setup) for a Commie > 64. > > I saw alot of interesting things that didn't come home with me (...yet... > ;)) letsee.... The coolest was probably the Univac 1540. Never seen one > before, it had a lot of dings but *GREAT* front panallage and full > headdress. Wish someone would save that one. Something else I almost > picked up was an Intel GUIO MCS-51 thingy that I'm sure will cause regret > in > time. > > Well, guess I'll go play... > > ;) > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Feb 25 19:41:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: Halooooo... Message-ID: <200002260141.UAA02386@world.std.com> ; from aek@spies.com on Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 05:42:57PM -0800 References: <200002260142.RAA28148@spies.com> Message-ID: <20000225205607.C14587@alcor.concordia.ca> On Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 05:42:57PM -0800, Al Kossow (aek@spies.com) wrote: > " Based on my conversations with him, I don't think he's > interested in selling anything off of E-bay" > > My 'favorite' line from eBay sellers is > > "If you're interested in something, let me know and I'll list > it on eBay" > > No, pinhead, you give me a price, and I say 'yes' or 'no' to it... Heh, no kidding. I've actually been pretty lucky with writing eBay sellers and saying "I don't do auctions, but I'll offer you $n". Especially with local stuff, where they get out of the waiting-for-payment and shipping hassles. -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From dogas at leading.net Fri Feb 25 20:08:19 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <003001bf7ffe$5c7ed560$ca646464@dogclient01> -----Original Message----- From: Eros, Anthony >Where's the UNIVAC? Is there any possibility of a rescue on it? > It's almost in Orlando, FL. I'd probably be available to help in a rescue attempt... ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Feb 25 21:26:21 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000225210725.3b675c0c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > The owner is in Roanoke, Va. He's been selling^H^H^H^H^H^H^H listing a > lot of HP stuff on E-bay. Most of it he knows nothing about and claims > that it "appears to work". After some discussion with him, I found that > "appears to work" means that the fan comes on but nothing else does! So > watch out. Based on my conversations with him, I don't think he's > interested in selling anything off of E-bay, unless maybe after it got no > bids. He's listed a couple of HP 1000s, a HP 9825 and a HP 9845 that I > know of. Craig Smith is a decent guy - but computers are not his thing (_old_ radios are). Please, folks, not everyone that lists old computers on Ebay is part of the "6800 assembler coding"* crowd. Don't slam them too hard...they are just being honest with what they know. *Think back to an ancient thread. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Fri Feb 25 22:11:51 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff References: <200002260142.RAA28148@spies.com> Message-ID: <38B75287.E66FF899@roanoke.infi.net> Careful Al, You never know who's on the list server. I thought I was rather cordial in our conversation--never did the ebay subject come up and I did invite you to stop by and check out the heavy stuff-----as an aside, I've found ebay to be a great place to list stuff when you have no idea of its worth and/or desirability. As an antique radio guy I didn't have a clue what the early computer guys were after---ebay has provided a very quick education in the field. The invitation to stop by Roanoke and take a look remains open to anyone in the area---lots of HP stuff and the only way I've found to NOT be a "pinhead" about pricing is to drop it on ebay and let it rip. Regards, Craig Al Kossow wrote: > > " Based on my conversations with him, I don't think he's > interested in selling anything off of E-bay" > > My 'favorite' line from eBay sellers is > > "If you're interested in something, let me know and I'll list > it on eBay" > > No, pinhead, you give me a price, and I say 'yes' or 'no' to it... From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Fri Feb 25 22:11:55 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F06AB51EF@ALFEXC5> Hmm... How big are we talking here? -- Tony > ---------- > From: Mike[SMTP:dogas@leading.net] > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 9:08 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: A classic classiccmp day... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eros, Anthony > > > >Where's the UNIVAC? Is there any possibility of a rescue on it? > > > > It's almost in Orlando, FL. I'd probably be available to help in a > rescue > attempt... ;) > > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Fri Feb 25 22:27:01 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff References: <3.0.1.16.20000225210725.3b675c0c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <38B75615.7CA9716F@roanoke.infi.net> Hi Joe, That's a little harsh don't you think??? In truth I knew nothing about that stuff when we exchanged email--but I'm learning fast [with a great deal of help from guys like you and your HP info pages!]. Fascinating subject. As an antique radio guy [mainly 1910-1925 Navy Shipboard Gear], I had never had any exposure to antique computer equipment. The most logical thing to do was test market some on ebay and see what happened. I NEVER put reserves or high starting prices on things--that's the whole point of letting things find a market price. I am also extremely careful when I describe and picture something on ebay. If I don't know, I SAY SO, and solicit comments from those more experienced in the field. The "So watch out" comment below is really not supported by the facts--my feedback on ebay has always been positive and all the guys who got HP stuff recently have been extremely pleased with it. [at pretty reasonable prices too I might add---the 9825 went for maybe $35, 9845 $45, 1000E with a bunch of cards $330] I'll repeat my offer to Al, if anyone is nearby Roanoke and wants to take a look---drop me a line. Regards, Craig Joe wrote: > > Hi All, > > The owner is in Roanoke, Va. He's been selling^H^H^H^H^H^H^H listing a > lot of HP stuff on E-bay. Most of it he knows nothing about and claims > that it "appears to work". After some discussion with him, I found that > "appears to work" means that the fan comes on but nothing else does! So > watch out. Based on my conversations with him, I don't think he's > interested in selling anything off of E-bay, unless maybe after it got no > bids. He's listed a couple of HP 1000s, a HP 9825 and a HP 9845 that I > know of. > > My $.02 worth, > Joe > > At 01:59 PM 2/25/00 -0800, you wrote: > >HP 2xxx stuff > > > >Just received this from someone who posted a paper tape punch on eBay. > >I asked if he had anything else. Someone on the East Coast may be able > >to work something out with him. > > > >"From: Craig Smith > >Reply-To: ip500@roanoke.infi.net > >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) > >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >To: Al Kossow > >Subject: Re: HP 2100 parts > >References: <200002251910.LAA28768@spies.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >Hi Al, > >No 2100 series stuff available but I do have a fair bit of 21MX and > >HP 1000 [series E and F] computers and pieces around. Also just hit the > >motherload on 2100 documentation----binders full! Am in the process of > >sorting it all out. What are you in need of and are you close enough to > >Roanoke for some heavy stuff. I've got a number of NICE rack cabinets > >and a bunch of the big floor model disc drives in storage and rack mount > >disc controllers. Also 2 or 3 of the 7970?? Reel to Reel > >data recorders [HEAVY!!]. Lots of 2640 terminals and some of the later > >terminals for the 3000 series. > > > >I'm cleaning out a warehouse full of stuff I recently bought and really > >am not sure of total numbers of stuff that will be available [or what > >else is in there] Every day is a new find. Let me know what your looking > >for and I'll do some digging. > > > > Regards, Craig > > > >" > > From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Fri Feb 25 22:35:22 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff References: Message-ID: <38B7580A.E3BD03FA@roanoke.infi.net> Thanks for the kind words Bill. I just joined the list recently to expand my knowledge and newly acquired interest in computers. Built up a pretty good "instant collection" of semi-early HP stuff. My wife is giving me a really hard time about another hobby and more "junk". Regards, Craig William Donzelli wrote: > > > The owner is in Roanoke, Va. He's been selling^H^H^H^H^H^H^H listing a > > lot of HP stuff on E-bay. Most of it he knows nothing about and claims > > that it "appears to work". After some discussion with him, I found that > > "appears to work" means that the fan comes on but nothing else does! So > > watch out. Based on my conversations with him, I don't think he's > > interested in selling anything off of E-bay, unless maybe after it got no > > bids. He's listed a couple of HP 1000s, a HP 9825 and a HP 9845 that I > > know of. > > Craig Smith is a decent guy - but computers are not his thing (_old_ > radios are). Please, folks, not everyone that lists old computers on Ebay is > part of the "6800 assembler coding"* crowd. Don't slam them too > hard...they are just being honest with what they know. > > *Think back to an ancient thread. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 26 03:55:58 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff In-Reply-To: <200002260142.RAA28148@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000226045558.3e4fb19a@mailhost.intellistar.net> I went into a surplus store today and found a complete set of HP logic probes, pulser, chip clip and comparator. I asked what the price was and the onwer ran over to his computer and checked to see what they were selling for on E-bay. Needless to say, I left without buying it. Joe At 05:42 PM 2/25/00 -0800, Al wrote: >" Based on my conversations with him, I don't think he's >interested in selling anything off of E-bay" > >My 'favorite' line from eBay sellers is > >"If you're interested in something, let me know and I'll list > it on eBay" > >No, pinhead, you give me a price, and I say 'yes' or 'no' to it... > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 26 03:11:39 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... In-Reply-To: <000f01bf7ff3$602ff780$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000226041139.3e4f2e40@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:48 PM 2/25/00 -0500, you wrote: >Hi everyone, > >What a cool day. I woke up to a beautiful Florida morning and hopped in >the car and drove to Orlando and met Joe to 'hit the spots' (Thanks for >comming out to play, Joe!) Anytime! I had a ball! Mike forgot to tell everyone about his AMD 2900 bit slice single board computer. THAT'S COOL! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 26 03:14:08 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... In-Reply-To: <003001bf7ffe$5c7ed560$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000226041408.3e4f0ef4@mailhost.intellistar.net> It's in Sanford Fla. This thing is seriously heavy! It's build like a tank and I'm not kidding. It has 1" plate aluminium in it. Neither Mike nor I could move it and we're both BIG boys. Joe At 09:08 PM 2/25/00 -0500, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Eros, Anthony > > >>Where's the UNIVAC? Is there any possibility of a rescue on it? >> > >It's almost in Orlando, FL. I'd probably be available to help in a rescue >attempt... ;) > >- Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 26 03:53:09 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... In-Reply-To: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F06AB51EF@ALFEXC5> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000226045309.3e4f2d3a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:11 PM 2/25/00 -0600, you wrote: >Hmm... How big are we talking here? > >-- Tony About 6 feet 5 inches tall x 2 feet (or more) deep x 4 foot wide. And VERY heavy! Joe From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Feb 26 03:37:42 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: HP logic probes etc. Message-ID: In a message dated 2/26/2000 1:08:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > I went into a surplus store today and found a complete set of HP logic > probes, pulser, chip clip and comparator. I asked what the price was and > the onwer ran over to his computer and checked to see what they were > selling for on E-bay. Needless to say, I left without buying it. Well, Joe, you are a good scrounger. I bet you will find another. Out of curiosity what was he asking for the set? Paxton From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Feb 26 04:49:40 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: OT - need info on SUN 690MP board set Message-ID: <8c.14d14e5.25e909c4@aol.com> Can someone point me in the direction of info on the Sun SServer 690MP. I have read THE SUN HARDWARE REFERENCE compiled by James W. Birdsall and need more info. I seem to have gotten a board set, no backplane, and am interested in identifying some of the cards. Also looking for more info on the Ross CPU? Is anyone running one? OT because it seem to date from 1993. Have CPU (dual Ross 40 MHz) wi 2 differential SCSI & Fiber & 128 meg ram. 501-2055 wi 2X 501-1902 & 370-1388 Extra memory card wi 128 Meg. 501-1767 PDX92B VME card to SBus ??? 201 963-02 3 IPI controllers 501-1539 & 2X 501-1855 From dogas at leading.net Sat Feb 26 07:19:39 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:10 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <003201bf805c$24da5c20$ca646464@dogclient01> -----Original Message----- From: Joe > Anytime! I had a ball! Mike forgot to tell everyone about his AMD 2900 >bit slice single board computer. THAT'S COOL! I've had that one for awile and think I've mentioned it before, but.... Yep, she's a beaut... Its an Advanced Micro Devices Am2901 Evaluation and Learning Kit. It's basicly a complete front panel board with the cpu and everything.. It works. It has 3 nibbles of LEDs (for data display, pipeline register, and microword memory) and toggles for address, data, ram/mux select, run, load, and single-stepping. ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Feb 26 09:35:17 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: HP logic probes etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000226073517.009504c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 04:37 26-02-2000 EST, you wrote: >> I went into a surplus store today and found a complete set of HP logic >> probes, pulser, chip clip and comparator. I asked what the price was and >> the onwer ran over to his computer and checked to see what they were >> selling for on E-bay. Needless to say, I left without buying it. > >Well, Joe, you are a good scrounger. I bet you will find another. Out of >curiosity what was he asking for the set? FWIW, Joe, I don't blame you either. I will admit to using E-pay as an occasional reference, but I also take other factors into account. Example: If someone wants an 11/23 board or something, I'm not about to ask for the "collector" price. That would be silly. Last summer, I actually did buy an HP 545 logic probe from a guy who had it on E-pay. I was the only bidder at its asking price of around $25. They do turn up. Just be aware that there was a nearly identical model to the 545 that was only for ECL circuits, and the physical appearance (outside of the model number) is no different. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Feb 26 09:46:12 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000226045558.3e4fb19a@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <200002260142.RAA28148@spies.com> Message-ID: > I went into a surplus store today and found a complete set of HP logic >probes, pulser, chip clip and comparator. I asked what the price was and >the onwer ran over to his computer and checked to see what they were >selling for on E-bay. Needless to say, I left without buying it. My guess is then that you didn't need it. Last month at TRW I was looking in a box of mac junk, offered the guy $35 for it, which he considered for minute, then started digging through the box and pulled out a card and sold it for $150 to another person who just walked up. Sometimes you win, sometimes you get what you need, sometimes it goes right past you. OTOH the really curious card I bought from him turns out to be functionally useless. My eBay peeve are people who say FS, but really just have a eBay link. I use eBay to set my own prices and it cuts both ways. Most items have drastically lowered prices, with just a few critical items holding value or going up. From dogas at leading.net Sat Feb 26 10:03:06 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: HP logic probes etc. Message-ID: <003401bf8073$18986c60$ca646464@dogclient01> >At 04:37 26-02-2000 EST, a few wrote: > >>> I went into a surplus store today and found a complete set of HP logic >>> probes, pulser, chip clip and comparator. I asked what the price was and >>> the onwer ran over to his computer and checked to see what they were >>> selling for on E-bay. Needless to say, I left without buying it. Yeah, I was there and pretty appaled too. Especially having to wait on the owner's cheesy computer and connection speed to get the price quote. ;) The scary thing is that this is where the Univac is and a resuce may entail a purchase at Ebay's street price... LOL! > They do turn up. Just be aware that there was a nearly identical model to >the 545 that was only for ECL circuits, and the physical appearance >(outside of the model number) is no different. 545A and 10525T probes came with my first 5036A trainer. ;) - Mike From aek at spies.com Sat Feb 26 11:37:05 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff Message-ID: <200002261737.JAA15281@spies.com> "Careful Al, You never know who's on the list server." I figured you'd probably be here, but since you didn't post that the stuff was available.. "No, pinhead, you give me a price, and I say 'yes' or 'no' to it..." Did I say this was about you? From west at tseinc.com Sat Feb 26 11:21:10 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff References: <3.0.1.16.20000225210725.3b675c0c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <002c01bf807d$e150cee0$0101a8c0@jay> Someone wrote... > >No 2100 series stuff available but I do have a fair bit of 21MX and > >HP 1000 [series E and F] computers and pieces around. Also just hit the > >motherload on 2100 documentation----binders full! Am in the process of > >sorting it all out. What are you in need of and are you close enough to > >Roanoke for some heavy stuff. I've got a number of NICE rack cabinets > >and a bunch of the big floor model disc drives in storage and rack mount > >disc controllers. Also 2 or 3 of the 7970?? Reel to Reel > >data recorders [HEAVY!!]. Lots of 2640 terminals and some of the later > >terminals for the 3000 series. Aw sheesh - why does it have to be that all the decent HP2100 and 21MXM/E/F stuff is so far away from me. I'd give anything for another 2109E, another 2113E, and a 2108M and 2112M. OK.... not *ANYTHING*.... well, I can dream anyways :) I already have a pristine 7970E, but if the ones he has are 7970E's I would suggest any HP'ers go get 'em. VERY nice tape drives. Jay West From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Feb 26 11:51:57 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... In-Reply-To: <003201bf805c$24da5c20$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: How many Am2901's does it have? Is it the 'HEX-29' 16bit computer that is shown in AMDs 'Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design' book and app notes? clint On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Mike wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe > > > > Anytime! I had a ball! Mike forgot to tell everyone about his AMD 2900 > >bit slice single board computer. THAT'S COOL! > > > I've had that one for awile and think I've mentioned it before, but.... > > Yep, she's a beaut... Its an Advanced Micro Devices Am2901 Evaluation and > Learning Kit. It's basicly a complete front panel board with the cpu and > everything.. It works. It has 3 nibbles of LEDs (for data display, > pipeline register, and microword memory) and toggles for address, data, > ram/mux select, run, load, and single-stepping. > > ;) > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 26 12:39:46 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: HP logic probes etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000226073517.009504c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000226133946.1bc7e76c@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:35 AM 2/26/00 -0800, you wrote: >At 04:37 26-02-2000 EST, you wrote: > >>> I went into a surplus store today and found a complete set of HP logic >>> probes, pulser, chip clip and comparator. I asked what the price was and >>> the onwer ran over to his computer and checked to see what they were >>> selling for on E-bay. Needless to say, I left without buying it. >> >>Well, Joe, you are a good scrounger. I bet you will find another. Out of >>curiosity what was he asking for the set? Well we found three sets that had closed on e-bay. One sold for $25, one sold for $40 something and the other sold for $140 something. When he started looking at the last one I left! > > FWIW, Joe, I don't blame you either. I will admit to using E-pay as an >occasional reference, but I also take other factors into account. Example: >If someone wants an 11/23 board or something, I'm not about to ask for the >"collector" price. That would be silly. I agree. E-bay is usefull for a price guide but many people take the TOP E-bay price and decide that's what they want. I dealt with the same thing when I used to restore cars. People would hear about some fully restored car that sold for mega thousands of dollars and they would decide that their unrestored rust bucket had to be worth almost as much. > > Last summer, I actually did buy an HP 545 logic probe from a guy who had >it on E-pay. I was the only bidder at its asking price of around $25. > > They do turn up. I bought the smaller kit with just the logic probe and pulser for $25 at the Orlando hamfest. There was also a HP 10525 Pulse Memory in the box and the seller included it too. The Pulse Memory is a cool device. It connects between the logic probe and it's power connector and any pulse that turns on the logic probe will trigger the PM and it will stay on untill manually reset. The power surge to the logic probe cause by the logic probe light turning on causes the PM to trigger. It's intended for those sitations where you want to connect a probe and let it monitor the circuit unattended for long periods of time. BTW I bought this stuff from a test equipment dealer by the name of Joe Barkley from Charlotte NC. I've known Joe for several years and he's an all around nice guy. I recommend him whole heartedly. I bought a HP logic comparator with all the books, IC cards, etc in like new condition for $20 at the UCF hamfest. I already had one so I passed it on to one of the other CC list members. Joe > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > From stevemas at persys.com Sat Feb 26 12:45:15 2000 From: stevemas at persys.com (Steve Mastrianni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff In-Reply-To: <002c01bf807d$e150cee0$0101a8c0@jay> References: <3.0.1.16.20000225210725.3b675c0c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000226133637.00b6d590@persys.com> I also wish I was closer. The 2100 holds a personal attraction for me, since it was the box I cut my teeth on. I wrote lots of assembly language and a pile of Fortran on the 2100, 21MXE and F, and A-series. The 7970E was a nice drive, 1600 BPI phase encoded. The 7970B was also a nice drive, but only 800 BPI NRZI. Both were built with high quality components and had a very high MTBF as long as you kept the read and write heads clean. At 11:21 AM 2/26/00 -0600, Jay West wrote: >Someone wrote... > > >No 2100 series stuff available but I do have a fair bit of 21MX and > > >HP 1000 [series E and F] computers and pieces around. Also just hit the > > >motherload on 2100 documentation----binders full! Am in the process of > > >sorting it all out. What are you in need of and are you close enough to > > >Roanoke for some heavy stuff. I've got a number of NICE rack cabinets > > >and a bunch of the big floor model disc drives in storage and rack mount > > >disc controllers. Also 2 or 3 of the 7970?? Reel to Reel > > >data recorders [HEAVY!!]. Lots of 2640 terminals and some of the later > > >terminals for the 3000 series. > >Aw sheesh - why does it have to be that all the decent HP2100 and 21MXM/E/F >stuff is so far away from me. I'd give anything for another 2109E, another >2113E, and a 2108M and 2112M. OK.... not *ANYTHING*.... well, I can dream >anyways :) > >I already have a pristine 7970E, but if the ones he has are 7970E's I would >suggest any HP'ers go get 'em. VERY nice tape drives. > >Jay West > > - Steve Mastrianni From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Feb 26 12:46:17 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: OT - need info on SUN 690MP board set In-Reply-To: <8c.14d14e5.25e909c4@aol.com>; from Innfogra@aol.com on Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 05:49:40AM -0500 References: <8c.14d14e5.25e909c4@aol.com> Message-ID: <20000226124617.O12050@mrbill.net> On Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 05:49:40AM -0500, Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > Can someone point me in the direction of info on the Sun SServer 690MP. I > have read THE SUN HARDWARE REFERENCE > compiled by James W. Birdsall and need more info. > I seem to have gotten a board set, no backplane, and am interested in > identifying some of the cards. Also looking for more info on the Ross CPU? Is > anyone running one? > OT because it seem to date from 1993. > Have CPU (dual Ross 40 MHz) wi 2 differential SCSI & Fiber & 128 meg ram. > 501-2055 wi 2X 501-1902 & 370-1388 > Extra memory card wi 128 Meg. 501-1767 > PDX92B VME card to SBus ??? 201 963-02 > 3 IPI controllers 501-1539 & 2X 501-1855 You might want to check out my web site, www.sunhelp.org, and particuarly the mailing lists (www.sunhelp.org/lists.php3) - subscribe to the Sun Rescue list, and we can ID your boards for you there. Also, check out http://sun-ref.sunhelp.org - an updated Sun Hardware Reference is in the works (by Mr. Birdsall and others), and there is a mailing list dedicated to that as well. 4/6x0MP machines are nice; I've got four of them. Bill -- +---------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | +-------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------+-----------------------------------+ | Version: 3.12 | | GCS d- s:++ a- C++++ US++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ N++ o K+++ w--- O- M-- V- | | PS PE+ Y+ PGP t+ 5 X- R-- tv+++ b++++ DI++++ D++ G++ e++ h r++ y+ | +-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----------------------------------------------+ From dogas at leading.net Sat Feb 26 13:13:59 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <001201bf808d$b2fafb00$ca646464@dogclient01> -----Original Message----- From: Clint Wolff (VAX collector) >How many Am2901's does it have? Is it the 'HEX-29' 16bit computer that >is shown in AMDs 'Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design' book and app notes? Just one. >> ;) >> - Mike: dogas@leading.net From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Feb 26 14:41:14 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Cassette storage Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000226143714.018646f0@pc> I received this charming message from someone today regarding the audio storage section of my web page http://www.threedee.com/jcm . - John : ::: From: xxxxx@aol.com : :: : Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 12:35:59 EST Subject: Cassete tape data storage To: jfoust@threedee.com : : : When I first saw your page, I was surprised that such a technology ever existed. Lately, I have been writing a windows program that stores data on standard cassette tapes, like a cheap alternative to a tape backup drive. I, being fourteen years old, was not around when the Commodore and other such systems dominated the market, so I did not know that there was ever a way to store data on cassette tapes. Once I am completely done, and I can fit a fair amount of data onto a cassette, I will send you the program. If you know of any other such programs, please tell me of them. I am interested to find out more. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 15:22:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... In-Reply-To: <001201bf808d$b2fafb00$ca646464@dogclient01> from "Mike" at Feb 26, 0 02:13:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 528 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000226/17d430e6/attachment.ksh From KB9VU at aol.com Sat Feb 26 17:45:52 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Heath/Zenith stuff Message-ID: <44.1e46171.25e9bfb0@aol.com> I have a Zenith (Heathkit) H/Z-110 low profile computer with all the options including the latest MB and 768K of RAM, Dual internal hard drives, outboard 1/2 height 8" Zenith drive unit, the color monitor and the Gemini IBM PC card (boots PCDOS directly). User, Technical and Service manuals: Full, original set. Software: Yeah! Lots of it. 15 to 20 original H/Z 3 ring binders of documentation and at least 150 4.25" disks of software. Operating systems: ZDOS, MSDOS, CP/M-80 and CP/M-86. I need room. Make me an offer. Shipping is NOT desired as it will take 3 or 4 large boxes and a lot of work to do it. Located in the St. Louis area. Jay West is still working through the pile of H/Z-89 stuff he picked up from me last month and I may have a few more items of that vintage, spare parts, software and maybe one more computer, available also. If Jay doesn't want them, they will be available. Again, I really don't want to ship the big stuff. Mike Stover, KB9VU Really great radios glow in the dark CCA# 404 MARS AFA3BO Florissant, MO From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 26 19:22:18 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day II ... In-Reply-To: References: <001201bf808d$b2fafb00$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000226202218.25e7d92e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I held off talking about my haul until I could try to find out more about the stuff, but I haven't had any luck finding anything. Thanks to Mike, here's some of the stuff that I got. A Fluke 1722A Intelligent Controller, a 2400B Intelligent Computer Front-End and a 2240B Data Logger. Does know anything about them? Any suggestions of anyplace on the net where I can find out more about them? The 1722 needs a disk with "F DOS". Does anyone have a copy of that? The 1722 is also missing the keyboard. It has a five pin DIN socket that appears to be the same as that used for the IBM PC and AT keyboards. Does anyone know if it can it use a IBM PC or PC AT keyboard on it? Joe From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Feb 26 18:45:23 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Docs for TC31? Message-ID: Hi all, Kind of a blah trip for me to TRW this month; last time I had almost no money and there was a bunch of stuff I wanted, this time I went loaded and only bought two extender boards for $1 each. Hmph. However, I did get to meet up with Marvin and Eliot Moore, from whom I acquired a couple of nifty qbus boards...one of which is an Emulex TC31. Does anyone have any documentation for this board, or have a minute to run over the dip switches for me? As always, help is much appreciated... Cheers, Aaron From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 18:47:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day II ... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000226202218.25e7d92e@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 26, 0 08:22:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1806 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000227/9d6e5a22/attachment.ksh From at258 at osfn.org Sat Feb 26 20:11:46 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Keronix In-Reply-To: <5936ED1A3F41D311BDC60090278874660C76EB@MSX102> Message-ID: We have recently added a Keronix to our collection. Perhpas this spring we will be able to do some work and get it operable. My question is this: How many Keronix machines survive? Does anyone else on the list have one? From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 26 22:22:40 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Keronix In-Reply-To: References: <5936ED1A3F41D311BDC60090278874660C76EB@MSX102> Message-ID: >We have recently added a Keronix to our collection. Perhpas this spring >we will be able to do some work and get it operable. > >My question is this: How many Keronix machines survive? Does anyone >else on the list have one? What is it? I for one have never even heard of one. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From at258 at osfn.org Sat Feb 26 23:06:18 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Keronix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's a Data General Nova clone. Supposedly they were working on an Eclipse clone also. On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >We have recently added a Keronix to our collection. Perhpas this spring > >we will be able to do some work and get it operable. > > > >My question is this: How many Keronix machines survive? Does anyone > >else on the list have one? > > What is it? I for one have never even heard of one. > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Feb 27 00:04:41 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Stuff to trade/stuff I'm looking for In-Reply-To: Aaron Christopher Finney's message of "Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:04:06 -0800 (PST)" References: Message-ID: <200002270604.WAA05560@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > On Wed, 23 Feb 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > > I thought the 2649 was the OEM version of the 2645 ... and that some > > of them were sold to people who developed 2649-resident software. > > Exactly the case. In fact, I believe it was Wirt Amir on the hp3000-l list > who was telling me about how his company actually programmed them to be > stand-alone wordprocessors. Yeah, I've just never gotten a close enough look at one to be sure. Other 264X terminals do differ: 2640s have a processor card with an 8008, and I never figured out what the processor was in the 2647F. > Thanks for the info! $300 is more than I want to spend on this one, but I > may have to figure out something if my patience starts to run out... Hey, this isn't for a PDP-11 or a VAX, it's for an HP3000, which is God's gift to computing. -Frank McConnell From dogas at leading.net Sun Feb 27 05:48:20 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Am2901 sbc, WAS: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <005301bf8118$a672c1c0$ca646464@dogclient01> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell >Any other AM29xx chips on it, like a 2909 or 2910 sequencer? Or is this >just a demo board for a 4-bit ALU chip? > >It sounds like a really interesting find, though. The 29xx series chips >were interesting devices that have been used in all sorts of machines. Yep, there is a 2909 on board too.... ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From dogas at leading.net Sun Feb 27 06:21:52 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Am2901 sbc Message-ID: <00b201bf811d$3cef1780$ca646464@dogclient01> I'll post a picture of the sbc online tomorrow... Cheers - Mike: dogas@leading.net From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Feb 27 08:51:34 2000 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: AT&T 3B2 model 310 and model 400 in Kansas City References: Message-ID: <38B939F6.D02A6B43@dragonsweb.org> McFadden, Mike wrote: > > AT&T #B2 model 310 and Model 400 > I just ran across these two machine along with some sort of AT&T external > case that goes with them. The model 400 has a damaged case, I haven't > looked inside. Rare, interesting, should I save them? I have read the 3B2 > FAQ. Anybody else want them? > Mike > mmcfadden@cmh.edu Mike, I want them if no one else spoken for them. Let me know and we'll talk price. Thanks, jbdigriz -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- DragonsWeb Labs - Custom R&D, Software, & Hardware ---------------------------------------------------------------- Tagline for Sunday, February 27, 2000 May I please be excused? My Brain is full. ---------------------------------------------------------------- James B. DiGriz - jbdigriz@dragonsweb.org - (912) 653-5139 ---------------------------------------------------------------- From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Feb 27 10:09:02 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Electronic/Radio/Computer Swap Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000227080902.009471d0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> The annual Mike and Key Amateur Radio Club swap meet is coming up again at the Western Washington (Puyallup) Fairgrounds on Saturday, March 11, from 09:00-15:00 Pacific time. Parking is free, admission is $6.00 with kids under 16 free when accompanied by an adult. Web info can be found here: http://www.mikeandkey.com/flyer00.htm (shameless plug alert!) I'll be there selling this year. Here's a partial listing of what I plan to bring: Exabyte 8200 and 8500 8mm SCSI tape drives, cleaned and checked out. A small (400W or so) UPS. Motorola 'Micor' radios. A Western Electric "shoebox" 1A2 key system cabinet and line cards. Anything else I can think of to grab, and that will fit. I want to bring out some DSD-880's, and maybe a Cipher front-loader, but Eric Smith was supposed to pick such up from me. On the other wing, he did not appear when he was scheduled to, and my E-mails to him have gone unanswered. Eric, if you're reading this, PLEASE GET IN TOUCH WITH ME! I'm willing to hold the stuff you wanted for a reasonable amount of time if you'll just commit to a pickup date. However, I need to clear space for future projects. Thanks for reading, and I hope to see at least some of you there. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Feb 27 10:36:08 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Keronix References: Message-ID: <38B95278.AB712FD5@mainecoon.com> "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > It's a Data General Nova clone. Yep, although like the DCC clones it has an "extended" mode which allows it to address more than 32KW of memory by restricting indirection to one level. I've been looking for one of these for a *long* time for my nova collection. Keronix was a major vendor of aftermarket core memory for the Nova, Their memory products were somewhat better than DG's; when DG shipped 8K boards Keronix shipped 16K, when DG finally figured out how to build 16K boards Keronix shipped 32Ks. When the Keronix factory burned to the ground we only somewhat jokingly referred to it as having been struck by "DeCastro lightning". -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From west at tseinc.com Sun Feb 27 10:28:04 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: HP2100 help requested Message-ID: <002301bf813f$a0ea5de0$0101a8c0@jay> One of my 2100's has developed a problem. It was working fine for some time, but was only powered up occasionally. The problem started when I ran some burn-in diags over several days. The machine started acting funny, and when I powered it off and back on, there's no front panel display at all - no lights. However, all the fans come up, one of the internal boards that has an on-board led is lit, and I checked all the outputs of the power supply and they're just peachy. I moved every single card (including the front panel) from the bad system to another system and it then runs fine so I know it's not any cards. I suspect the power supply, but as I said all the outputs appear good. Gawd I hope nothing happened to that wire-wrap backplane. Can anyone offer some advice? I'm starting to pour over the schematics on the power supply - wondering if something is amis with the poweron or powergood signal perhaps but I don't know much about it. Any tips most appreciated! Jay West From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sun Feb 27 11:19:04 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Stuff to trade/stuff I'm looking for In-Reply-To: <200002270604.WAA05560@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from Frank McConnell at "Feb 26, 2000 10:04:41 pm" Message-ID: <200002271719.LAA06121@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > Hey, this isn't for a PDP-11 or a VAX, it's for an HP3000, which is > God's gift to computing. > > -Frank McConnell > Gods gift to computing ;) Surely you're referring to something other than the 3000/200... They couldnt even write a proper FORTRAN compiler for it. And we never did use the 5.25" floppy drives, they didnt seem to provide a proper file oriented way to access them (though I suppose it could have been just a lack of documentation). -Lawrence LeMay From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 27 11:25:05 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... In-Reply-To: Re: A classic classiccmp day... (Mike) References: <003201bf805c$24da5c20$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: <14521.24049.273560.689399@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 26, Mike wrote: > Yep, she's a beaut... Its an Advanced Micro Devices Am2901 Evaluation and > Learning Kit. It's basicly a complete front panel board with the cpu and > everything.. It works. It has 3 nibbles of LEDs (for data display, > pipeline register, and microword memory) and toggles for address, data, > ram/mux select, run, load, and single-stepping. I've got one of those too. What a cool board! I *really* like Am2901s. -Dave McGuire From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun Feb 27 11:47:46 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: HP2100 help requested In-Reply-To: <002301bf813f$a0ea5de0$0101a8c0@jay> from Jay West at "Feb 27, 2000 10:28:04 am" Message-ID: <20000227174751Z433393-8367+89@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > One of my 2100's has developed a problem. It was working fine for some time, > but was only powered up occasionally. The problem started when I ran some > burn-in diags over several days. The machine started acting funny, and when > I powered it off and back on, there's no front panel display at all - no > lights. However, all the fans come up, one of the internal boards that has > an on-board led is lit, and I checked all the outputs of the power supply > and they're just peachy. I moved every single card (including the front > panel) from the bad system to another system and it then runs fine so I know > it's not any cards. I suspect the power supply, but as I said all the > outputs appear good. Gawd I hope nothing happened to that wire-wrap > backplane. > > Can anyone offer some advice? I'm starting to pour over the schematics on > the power supply - wondering if something is amis with the poweron or > powergood signal perhaps but I don't know much about it. > My experience when I worked at an HP2100 site was that about 50% of the problems had something to do with the backplane. You probably don't want to hear this :-). Check for dirt or dust in the connectors. One of the things the service people did when they got strange problems was vacuum out the entire backplane. For some reason HP2100s suffered more from bad backplane connections and dirt than other machines I've used. If a quick clean of the backplane doesn't work, its probably a good idea to check to power supply (its easier) before going back to the backplane for a more careful examination. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 27 12:55:21 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: HP2100 help requested In-Reply-To: <002301bf813f$a0ea5de0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000227135521.3dbfee40@mailhost.intellistar.net> Jay, Do all of those machines use the same power supply? I know where there is a HP 12797 (or 12979?). It's an I/O extender for the HP 1000. It looks like it has the same card rack and power supply as a 1000. I can probably get it cheap if you need it. It has a DCPC card in it but all the other cards look like interface cards for external IO. Joe At 10:28 AM 2/27/00 -0600, you wrote: >One of my 2100's has developed a problem. It was working fine for some time, >but was only powered up occasionally. The problem started when I ran some >burn-in diags over several days. The machine started acting funny, and when >I powered it off and back on, there's no front panel display at all - no >lights. However, all the fans come up, one of the internal boards that has >an on-board led is lit, and I checked all the outputs of the power supply >and they're just peachy. I moved every single card (including the front >panel) from the bad system to another system and it then runs fine so I know >it's not any cards. I suspect the power supply, but as I said all the >outputs appear good. Gawd I hope nothing happened to that wire-wrap >backplane. > >Can anyone offer some advice? I'm starting to pour over the schematics on >the power supply - wondering if something is amis with the poweron or >powergood signal perhaps but I don't know much about it. > >Any tips most appreciated! > >Jay West > > > > From whdawson at mlynk.com Sun Feb 27 12:01:48 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Keronix In-Reply-To: <38B95278.AB712FD5@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <000401bf814c$b7540e20$19e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> Yep, although like the DCC clones... How well I remember the DCC D-116. When I was stationed at FCDSTC, Dam Neck, VA we used one to control a IIRC 64 x 64 switching matrix for the Univac equipment (642B, UYK-7, and periphs). Local boxes on top of the computers would convert 36 bits, IIRC, of data and the control and interrupts lines to serial, (and vice versa) which would be routed thru the matrix, then go on to the selected computer or peripheral, where it would be converted back to parallel with the control and interrupt signals extracted. All the cabling was done with RG-59U. The system was synchronous, with the master clock generated at the matrix. I well remember tweaking the delays in the local converters and cutting cable to length to get the timing right. However, this sure beat using the huge patch panel this equipment replaced. We had a spare D-116, and we would switch over the ASR-33 and Digitronics tape reader and write and play BASIC games for hours while monitoring the system, which was designed in San Diego at ??? (a Naval research facility). I even got a 2 week "vacation" in Fairfield, NJ at the DCC HQ, where I learned field repair, to the component level, on the D-116. Does anyone remember the "twisted ring counter" used as the master timing circuit for the D-116 CPU board? Very cleaver, but hideous to troubleshoot. -> Keronix was a major vendor of aftermarket core memory for -> the Nova, Their memory products were somewhat better than -> DG's; when DG shipped 8K boards Keronix shipped 16K, when -> DG finally figured out how to build 16K boards Keronix -> shipped 32Ks. Keronix memory was all we used in the DCC box. IIRC, DCC didn't make their own. Thanks for the memories, Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 27 12:03:42 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Am2901 sbc, WAS: A classic classiccmp day... In-Reply-To: <005301bf8118$a672c1c0$ca646464@dogclient01> from "Mike" at Feb 27, 0 06:48:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 599 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000227/65bca0f9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 27 12:07:52 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: HP2100 help requestedr In-Reply-To: <002301bf813f$a0ea5de0$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Feb 27, 0 10:28:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1292 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000227/e2b94659/attachment.ksh From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Feb 27 13:18:39 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Electronic/Radio/Computer Swap Message-ID: <6d.1989414.25ead28f@aol.com> In a message dated 2/27/2000 8:16:47 AM Pacific Standard Time, kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com writes: > The annual Mike and Key Amateur Radio Club swap meet is coming up again at > the Western Washington (Puyallup) Fairgrounds on Saturday, March 11, from > 09:00-15:00 Pacific time. Parking is free, admission is $6.00 with kids > under 16 free when accompanied by an adult. > One great swapmeet. Very large. Get there early. Or better yet get a table. Paxton From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 27 13:26:16 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Am2901 sbc, WAS: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <200002271926.OAA25061@world.std.com> > From: Tony Duell <> >Any other AM29xx chips on it, like a 2909 or 2910 sequencer? Or is this <> >just a demo board for a 4-bit ALU chip? <> > <> >It sounds like a really interesting find, though. The 29xx series chips <> >were interesting devices that have been used in all sorts of machines. <> <> <> Yep, there is a 2909 on board too.... < I just noticed that I have a 6 wide, Probably Unibus, DEC card with 8 Am 2901s on it. The number on the tab is L0400. Any idea what it is? Paxton From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 27 14:41:56 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Am2901 on unknown DEC card, Need info In-Reply-To: Am2901 on unknown DEC card, Need info (Innfogra@aol.com) References: <27.24f528f.25eae1a2@aol.com> Message-ID: <14521.35860.645854.984618@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 27, Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > I just noticed that I have a 6 wide, Probably Unibus, DEC card with 8 Am > 2901s on it. The number on the tab is L0400. Any idea what it is? That's the data path board for a CI750, which is a CI interface for a VAX-11/750. -Dave McGuire From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Feb 27 14:45:36 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Still Available: HP1000 QuickRef guides Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000227124536.0093f100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> I still have two quick-reference guides for HP1000's available. Cost is $5.00 each (includes mailing costs -- I decided to discount them some more). First two takers in order of arrival of an E-mailed response get them. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From west at tseinc.com Sun Feb 27 14:45:01 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: HP2100 help requested - minor progress References: <20000227174751Z433393-8367+89@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <005201bf8163$85c21de0$0101a8c0@jay> Dr. Mark wrote...... > My experience when I worked at an HP2100 site was that about 50% > of the problems had something to do with the backplane. You > probably don't want to hear this :-). Check for dirt or dust > in the connectors. One of the things the service people did when > they got strange problems was vacuum out the entire backplane. > For some reason HP2100s suffered more from bad backplane connections > and dirt than other machines I've used. I use a particularly fantastic contact cleaner designed for gold. I can't say enough good about it. Now I use it on all cards and connectors I get during the cleaning process. My backplane has been very babied :) > If a quick clean of the backplane doesn't work, its probably > a good idea to check to power supply (its easier) before going > back to the backplane for a more careful examination. Ok, I dug through some info on the power supply. It appears that the IPU (Internal Power On) and PWU (power up) signals should go from 0 to 4vdc +/- 1v within 1/2 second of line voltage crossing 102vac. On my good machine they do, on this one they don't. It appears now that there is a problem with the A3 control board which monitors power and is the originator of IPU and PWU. If the revs of the boards are the same I'll try switching them. In any case, at least it seems to be isolated to one card. Thanks for all who responded, I'll let the list know what I find. Jay West PS - who was it that had a 2100 for years and hasn't touched it? Aw c'mon - give it a good home - I do know one ya know From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Feb 27 15:50:57 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Still Available: HP1000 QuickRef guides In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000227124536.0093f100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: Did Jim Willing get one from you? Last I heard he's in need of HP1000 doc's for the pair he got off of Paxton, and I don't know how activelly he monitors the list. Zane > I still have two quick-reference guides for HP1000's available. Cost is >$5.00 each (includes mailing costs -- I decided to discount them some more). > > First two takers in order of arrival of an E-mailed response get them. >Thanks much. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Sun Feb 27 16:05:05 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Contact cleaner? Was: HP2100 help requested - minor progress In-Reply-To: <005201bf8163$85c21de0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: I use a particularly fantastic contact cleaner designed for gold. I can't say enough good about it. Now I use it on all cards and connectors I get during the cleaning process. My backplane has been very babied :) Jay West So don't keep it a secret! What is it and where do you get it for how much? I've used Cramolin (red and blue) that I bought years ago for my audio interconnects. I tend to use it as a general palliative and can't really verify or dispute its effectiveness. How do you judge? Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs bobstek@ix.netcom.com From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Feb 27 16:07:46 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: HP1000 guides spoken for Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000227140746.00943e20@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Thanks go to Craig Smith and Paxton Hoag for claiming the last of the HP1000 quick-ref guides. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Feb 27 16:09:22 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Still Available: HP1000 QuickRef guides In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20000227124536.0093f100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000227140922.0094c660@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 13:50 27-02-2000 -0800, you wrote: >Did Jim Willing get one from you? Last I heard he's in need of HP1000 >doc's for the pair he got off of Paxton, and I don't know how activelly he >monitors the list. Actually, no, I never heard back from Jim. However, Paxton just got one of the two remaining, so Jim can probably hit him up for a copy. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Feb 27 16:27:51 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Selling My Collection Message-ID: Heads Up... here's the Deal: After much mental anguish and thought-form hand wringing, I think it is best that I unload a Hobby or two and concentrate on other things.. Therefore: Seeing as how the Computers are taking up over 30% of my living space, consuming financial, electrical, and temporal resources, but not getting used for months at a time... well, you get the Picture. I am going to sell everything that I now have related to classic computing.. that is, all the Minis and Micros and everything related to them: parts, spares, software, documentation, peripherals, sales material, the related books library, cables, stuff, junk, and even the little plastic bags full of odd lockwashers. The Collection is primarily DEC PDP-11 Minis, several 11/34s, several 11/44s, a few uVAXen, two PRO-350 etc. The Micros are Apple IIs, Kaypros, various early portables, an Intecolor with display and trackball, NorthStar Horizons, etc etc etc etc...... And, 'Yes' this includes the IMSAI, the Altair, and the Heathkit Large Analogue Computer, and several other quite rare items. There are not a lot of conditions, save that I will be asking somewhere between the high four-figures / low five-figures in US Dollars, and that the Buyer is expected to take *everything*.. ie no 'cherry picking'. My intent is to get my living room back, not start a part-time surplus business. The Buyer must come to my location with a truck big enough to do the job, unless the Buyer is local enough to make two or three trips in the space of a weekend. The deal will be: We agree on price, you pay me, the check clears the bank, you show up with truck, we load gear all day, I wave goodbye when you/it leaves, period, as in sale final, as-is, where-is, don't even say the word 'warranty' around me. I'll be happy to discuss in detail with you as to what works, what doesn't, etc. The only exception to all of this is the MINC-11, which has been promised to the Computer History Museum at Moffet Field. I will send a complete inventory to serious requestors... and again I stress that this is an all-or-nothing, I'm leaving the Hobby and never looking back type of deal. I am located in Los Angeles, CA for your logistical information. Cheers John From dlinder at uiuc.edu Sun Feb 27 16:28:27 2000 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Amiga and BSD o/s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > I'm wanting to try out one (or both) of Open BSD and NetBSD on my lil' ol' > Amiga -- I really need someone who has gone through the teething process of > formatting drives and instaling necessary files, etc. I installed it on my 2000 a few times... just follow the INSTALL directions. Nothing could be easier. Just pick your partition sizes as per their directions (pretty on target), label them accordingly in the Amiga HD Toolbox, and go... Of course, that was at least a version ago, so... who knows > Amiga o/s is neat, but Id like to get into something with a more viable > future. Heh, I got a PC to run FreeBSD so my amiga could keep running AmigaOS... But I'm in the school of people who think VAXen should run VMS. good luck! NetBSD/Amiga is nice... served me well for 4 years of college. - Dan Linder / dlinder@uiuc.edu / upside@mcs.net - - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... - From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 27 15:38:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Am2901 sbc, WAS: A classic classiccmp day... In-Reply-To: <200002271926.OAA25061@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Feb 27, 0 02:26:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1974 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000227/2cd36ca7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 27 15:41:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: HP2100 help requested - minor progress In-Reply-To: <005201bf8163$85c21de0$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Feb 27, 0 02:45:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 579 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000227/9125a147/attachment.ksh From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Feb 27 17:51:50 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Amiga and BSD o/s In-Reply-To: ; from dlinder@uiuc.edu on Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 04:28:27PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20000227185150.A22999@alcor.concordia.ca> On Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 04:28:27PM -0600, Dan Linder (dlinder@uiuc.edu) wrote: > > Heh, I got a PC to run FreeBSD so my amiga could keep running AmigaOS... > But I'm in the school of people who think VAXen should run VMS. Of course, there's one other school, which is that in which you obtain two of everything, one running NetBSD and the other running its original OS. I just found my second MIPS M120 and have my eye on a pair of vs3100s and a pair of Sun 3/60s... :-) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 27 18:26:23 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:11 2005 Subject: Am2901 sbc, WAS: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <200002280026.TAA22219@world.std.com> Hi all, I have spent all day trying to get VMS 5.4 loaded onto my 11/750, but I can't figure out how to get standalone backup to find the hard drive. My configuration: CPU: 11/750 Massbus? Emulex SC750/B? (RM03/RM05/RM80 compatible) Fujitsu Eagle (M2351?) Emulex SC750/B? (RM03/RM05/RM80 compatible) Memory: 14Meg Unibus: TU80 controller misc other boards 4.3 BSD recognizes the Fuji drive, and calls it hp(0,0), but I can't get standalone backup (version 4.4) to recognize it... Any suggestions? I've tried DUA0, DRA0, DBA0, and several others... Thanks in advance, clint PS I shudder to think of my electric bill this month... Yesterday I installed and played with 4.3 BSD, today I tried to install VMS... Fortunately it is cool enough outside, I can just open the door to keep it from overheating... From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Feb 27 19:06:26 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Stuff to trade/stuff I'm looking for In-Reply-To: Lawrence LeMay's message of "Sun, 27 Feb 2000 11:19:04 -0600 (CST)" References: <200002271719.LAA06121@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <200002280106.RAA36690@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Gods gift to computing ;) > Surely you're referring to something other than the 3000/200... They couldnt > even write a proper FORTRAN compiler for it. And we never did use the > 5.25" floppy drives, they didnt seem to provide a proper file oriented > way to access them (though I suppose it could have been just a lack > of documentation). Sounds like a 9000 to me; there never was a 3000 series 200. The only floppy disc drives I ever heard of on 3000s were 8", and I don't think that notion caught on. And if you were using a 3000, you'd have noticed! 3000s don't run Unix, they run MPE, which (back then at least) was clearly not Unix-like. They also used to have a thoroughly record-structured filesystem. Most folks just hate that, though I can't fathom why. -Frank McConnell From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Feb 27 20:58:20 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Selling My Collection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.20000227203158.00b4f610@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 02:27 PM 2/27/00 -0800, John Lawson said something like: >again I stress that this is an all-or-nothing, I'm leaving the Hobby >and never looking back type of deal. I'm really sorry to see you leave John! You've been one of the "core" group on this list from before I joined who's left me with important bits of knowledge and wisdom about a broad variety of classic computer-related subjects. I really hope you are able to find a fine home for the collection. I think I can _really_ sympathize with you on the space thing. For at least 25 years I've been a serious early radio and electronic communications collector/historian. I have several very interesting items amongst the mostly garden variety early radio collection fitted into the house. Now, with folks like you here, I've been able to develop my classic computer collecting hobby within a short time and obtain a few interesting classic computer pieces to add to the several gems I already had before I "discovered" the hobby. As Hans F. and William D. can attest from seeing our house, there is a wee bit of a space problem in "my" areas ;) Beverly "allows" me a bit over half the basement, all the attic, an extra bedroom (a small one) and the 2 car garage at the back of the property for my stuff (she's giving me the evil eye on the half of the main garage filled with DEC gear though . . .). At least the DEC gear out in the garage is heading out to Colorado which is beginning to be planned now. There are several radios on display around our living room but those are like a piece of furniture. Not many of us folks have yet figured out how to make a typical minicomputer look like a piece of wood furniture in order to please the spouse/S.O. ;) Good luck! -Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From west at tseinc.com Sun Feb 27 22:02:21 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: HP2100 more minor progress References: Message-ID: <00fd01bf81a0$9e2d90c0$0101a8c0@jay> Well, the bad card is definitely A3 in the power supply. This is the card that checks overvoltage, undervoltage, and provides the powerup signal. Unfortunately, my schematics for the power supply boards is correct for all the cards except A3. My schematics are for 2100-60047 and my board is 2100-60109. Since the 60047 version has IC's and my 60109 board does not, I'm a little hesitant to accept the schematic I've got. Sheesh! Also, how come most HP power supplies I've worked with don't have ejection handles on the cards? There always a major pain to remove (wiping off my bloody knuckles )! Cursory probes with a transistor checker and vom don't reveal the problem. Unless someone here has schematics for the 2100-60109 A3 board, it looks like I'll be calling a dealer tomorrow to find out just how much he'll charge for a replacement board. Grrrrr.... Thanks to all who replied! Jay West From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 27 22:32:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: VAX/VMS help needed Message-ID: <200002280432.XAA16745@world.std.com> Message-ID: <011401bf81a3$a87ed540$0101a8c0@jay> Bob wrote... > So don't keep it a secret! What is it and where do you get it for how much? > > I've used Cramolin (red and blue) that I bought years ago for my audio > interconnects. I tend to use it as a general palliative and can't really > verify or dispute its effectiveness. How do you judge? It's made by Caig, and called Pro Gold G5. It cost me about $15.00 for a 5oz spray can. I've used it on every gold connector in 3 restoration projects, and I still have almost 1/2 can (and that includes scrubbing all the backplane connectors with it). The only drawback is it is ONLY for use on gold connectors. I use it on backplane connectors as well as the edge connectors on cards with a very soft toothbrush. How do I judge efficacy? It has definitely solved several problematic connection backplanes for me. Also many I/O cards that were very hard to seat now slide in and out effortlessly (and still seat snugly). Old very worn connectors (and even corroded ones) come out bright and shiny almost immediately. Supposedly it also prevents future corrosion. And best of all - it's completely safe to get on plastics (although they do advise wiping up excess quickly). When talking to a rep at the company, they also said it is completely non-conductive and can be sprayed on live connections. I wouldn't do that - but it does make me feel like I don't always have to let the connector dry over 24 hours before using. Regards, Jay West From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Feb 27 23:05:14 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Selling My Collection Message-ID: <20000228050514.28942.qmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Christian Fandt wrote: > Upon the date 02:27 PM 2/27/00 -0800, John Lawson said something like: > >again I stress that this is an all-or-nothing, I'm leaving the Hobby > >and never looking back type of deal. > > I'm really sorry to see you leave John! I agree. > Not many of us folks have yet figured out how to make a typical > minicomputer look like a piece of wood furniture in order to please > the spouse/S.O. ;) I do have these LSI-11/03 machines in 3' tall DEC cabinets with casters and woodgrain formica tops - they could pass for end tables. I got them from OSU at the surplus yard about 8 years ago - 11/03 w/DLV11J, RXV11, RX01 and a small amount of MOS memory (8K?) They make up an important segment of my basement work area as portable Qbus space with useful work surface on top. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain goes away on 15 March. See http://www.infinet.com/ for details. Please update your address lists to reflect my new address: erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Feb 27 23:15:22 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: VAX/VMS help needed Message-ID: <20000228051522.9013.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote: > > Hi all, > > I have spent all day trying to get VMS 5.4 loaded onto my 11/750, but > I can't figure out how to get standalone backup to find the hard drive. > > My configuration: > > CPU: > 11/750 > Massbus? > Emulex SC750/B? (RM03/RM05/RM80 compatible) > Fujitsu Eagle (M2351?) > Emulex SC750/B? (RM03/RM05/RM80 compatible) > > 4.3 BSD recognizes the Fuji drive, and calls it hp(0,0), but I can't > get standalone backup (version 4.4) to recognize it... All unicies I've worked with in the DEC world were great about non-DEC disk controllers. Even 2.9BSD for the PDP-11 loves Unibus SMD disk controllers in the install (xp driver). > Any suggestions? I've tried DUA0, DRA0, DBA0, and several others... ISTR that with third-party disk controllers, it was common to cut custom SA Backup tapes. We always had SI/9900 controllers so I can't comment to your Emulex boards specifically, but I know we had to patch the DRDRIVER.EXE to recognize an Eagle as an oversized RM05. The smaller Fuji drive (a 160Mb) showed up under VMS and UNIX as a pair of RM03s, DRA0 and DRA1. We didn't have to do anything to the drives for that one - the geometry was emulated exactly. Depending on MASSBUS slot number (set by the jumpers on the backplane, but typically never altered from factory spec), it's possible that your drive might show up as DRB0 or DRC0, especially if there are multiple MASSBUS options installed or even a second Unibus (L0010 card). One of the features of later SA Backups was that it would print out your available disk and tape configuration as part of the startup process. If you are loading such a version and the tape drive shows up but not your Emulex disk, suspect driver issues with the SA Backup tapes, especially if they are DEC standard. I think that crept in around VMS 5, though. If you can get a newer Backup, it might help you identify what, if any, drive letters it shows up as. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain goes away on 15 March. See http://www.infinet.com/ for details. Please update your address lists to reflect my new address: erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From jmd at infinet.com Sun Feb 27 23:11:05 2000 From: jmd at infinet.com (jmd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Sony SMC-70 info Message-ID: <38BA0369.9A4E915A@infinet.com> Hi all... I am still looking for any information I can find on a Sony SMC-70. User Manual, pinout diagrams etc. Any info would be appreciated. I have CP/M disks. tia jeff duncan From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 28 00:28:34 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Selling My Collection Message-ID: <20000228062835.68200.qmail@hotmail.com> John, Well I know that A: I can;t afford all of it, and B: I don't need more than one 11/34, etc., hehe. Anyways, I wanted to ask if you have a spare 11/34 front panel you could possibly spare, since mine has none. Also, the 2nd weekend in March will be Wang day. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vcf at siconic.com Mon Feb 28 01:13:43 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Tandy 6000 up for grabs in Fleischmanns, New York, USA Message-ID: Here is someone with a Tandy 6000 system that needs to go to a good home. Please contact the owner directly. Reply-to: catskill@catskill.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:04:36 -0500 From: Catskill To: Vintage Computer Festival Subject: Re: Old Working Computer In Fleischmanns, NY 12430. The town is located in the southeastern tier of New York (Catskill Mountain) about 100 miles due northwest of New York City and 110 miles due east from Binghamton, NY. Incidentally, I forgot to mention that then Tandy 6000 HD comes with a harddrive and a "memory expansion unit" - also a few 8" disks. ----- Original Message ----- To: Catskill Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 12:24 AM Subject: Re: Old Working Computer On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Catskill wrote: > One vintage Tandy 6000 in very good working order for the price of > shipping it to you if you are interested. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Feb 28 03:22:24 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: RT-11 version 2 manual available... Message-ID: Hi all, I finally got the rest of the RT-11v2 System Reference Manual online tonight: http://www.prinsol.com/~aaron/classiccmp/rt11v2manual/ I haven't had time to put together the rest yet (appendices, etc.) and I also have release notes from Fortran IV and some other stuff to put up. Also in the works are a couple of handbooks and the like, an IBM System/360 Fortran IV manual, some older SunOS docs...and whatever else I can find around here to scan. Cheers, Aaron :wq From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Feb 28 07:56:26 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? Message-ID: <13527306955.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> You know, I've been told it's painful, but is it dangerous? I just told another group about the supply I have (It outputs 110AC, 30hz, .06 amp), and realized it's 110. Isn't that dangerous? If I really did zap my kid brother with it, would it just hurt or could it really HURT him? ------- From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Feb 28 08:25:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <13527306955.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: Treat is with respect. Under the worng condition it could be serious, under the best it's very nasty. I've been caught by that a few times and it's the 30hz that I find worse. Allison On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > You know, I've been told it's painful, but is it dangerous? > I just told another group about the supply I have (It outputs 110AC, 30hz, > .06 amp), and realized it's 110. Isn't that dangerous? If I really did zap > my kid brother with it, would it just hurt or could it really HURT him? > ------- > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Feb 28 09:00:51 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <13527306955.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000228070051.00944ad0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 05:56 28-02-2000 -0800, you wrote: >You know, I've been told it's painful, but is it dangerous? Any voltage along those lines can be dangerous if it passes through the chest. My understanding is that it takes less than 20mA of current flow to kill a person. Be safe rather than sorry. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From edick at idcomm.com Mon Feb 28 09:55:33 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? Message-ID: <001001bf8204$3fb26840$0400c0a8@winbook> The ringing voltage is over 250 volts peak-to-peak but at a high enough voltage to make you jerk your hand away if you touch it. The voltage range that's most dangerous is from 25volts to about 60 volts, as it won't make you jerk your hand (or other body part) away, yet it is capable of disrupting normal operation of the cardio-vascular system. I've never seen a precise write-up of what it takes to kill you, but I'd avoid contact with voltages such as this just to avoid the pain. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, February 28, 2000 8:25 AM Subject: Re: Is ringing voltage dangerous? >At 05:56 28-02-2000 -0800, you wrote: > >>You know, I've been told it's painful, but is it dangerous? > > > > Any voltage along those lines can be dangerous if it passes through the >chest. My understanding is that it takes less than 20mA of current flow to >kill a person. > > Be safe rather than sorry. > > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Feb 28 10:06:17 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: RT-11 version 2 manual available... In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Feb 28, 2000 01:22:24 AM Message-ID: <200002281606.IAA04391@fraser.sfu.ca> Yahoo! I need RT-11 docs of any kind! Thanks, Aaron. Kevin > > > Hi all, > > I finally got the rest of the RT-11v2 System Reference Manual online > tonight: > > http://www.prinsol.com/~aaron/classiccmp/rt11v2manual/ > > I haven't had time to put together the rest yet (appendices, etc.) and I > also have release notes from Fortran IV and some other stuff to put up. > Also in the works are a couple of handbooks and the like, an IBM > System/360 Fortran IV manual, some older SunOS docs...and whatever else I > can find around here to scan. > > Cheers, > > Aaron > > :wq > > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Feb 28 10:30:29 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Cipher F880 Manual (copy) Available Message-ID: Hi, I've got a photocopy of the technical manual (mechanical breakdowns/etc) for a Cipher F880/C880 available to anyone who wants it. It's a professional-quality photocopy that John L. made and the original claimant didn't want. Anyone with a need can have it... Cheers, Aaron From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Feb 28 11:36:12 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <13527306955.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000228123612.25efeb8c@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 05:56 AM 2/28/00 -0800, Danial wrote: >You know, I've been told it's painful, but is it dangerous? >I just told another group about the supply I have (It outputs 110AC, 30hz, >.06 amp), and realized it's 110. Isn't that dangerous? If I really did zap >my kid brother with it, would it just hurt or could it really HURT him? >------- > No, it'll just hurt him. It'll sure get his attention though! I've been shocked by them dozens of times. FWIW the normal (US) telephone ringing voltage is only 48 volts or so. The old telephones and military field phones with the hand cranks with put out over 100 volts. Those hurt! Joe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Feb 28 12:09:10 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000228123612.25efeb8c@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <13527306955.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000228100236.03fcb100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 12:36 PM 2/28/00 -0500, you wrote: >At 05:56 AM 2/28/00 -0800, Danial wrote: >>You know, I've been told it's painful, but is it dangerous? >>I just told another group about the supply I have (It outputs 110AC, 30hz, >>.06 amp), and realized it's 110. Isn't that dangerous? If I really did zap >>my kid brother with it, would it just hurt or could it really HURT him? >>------- >> > > No, it'll just hurt him. It'll sure get his attention though! Bzzzt! And thanks for playing. Electricity screws up a variety of things in the human body, the brain, the heart, etc. All due to the interaction of electricity with nerves. You can kill someone with a couple of microamps in the right spot, then again 10,000V from a static electricity build up is just a 'snap.' The bottom line is current flowing through and around nerves and there isn't a very good SPICE model for a human. However, lots of things can change the situation: 1) Is there a good conductive path for the electricity? 2) What freqency is the signal? 3) How much current does the base signal have? And how long can it keep that going? 4) What is the "ground reference" for the circuit, where is ground relative to the point of entry? 5) What is the blood sugar level of the victim? The bottom line is, "Don't zap your kid brother, as tempting as that is, because the down side (death, or permanent disability) is too great." --Chuck From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Feb 28 12:09:19 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <001001bf8204$3fb26840$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've never seen a precise write-up of what it takes to kill you, but I'd > avoid contact with voltages such as this just to avoid the pain. Over the years BYTE, PopularElectronics, RadioElectonics and many texts (none I have) have covered it. the key element is NOT Voltage but, the current flow it can induce through a largely resistive body. The currents range from about 60MA (considered deadly if across the chest) to 20uA which is down around the threshold level. Also DC vs AC and what frequency the effects vary. HF(above several MHZ) AC for example is more likely to cause burns before muscle spasms. RULE 1, unless the voltage is very low it _can_ be dangerous. Low is hard number be exact about but, over 12-30V is the watch out zone. RULE 2, All efforts are to be made to avoid crossing the heart or chest as a possible path for safety. One hand in pocket rule is derived from this. RULE 3, if you not sure, make sure. get a meter and find out if it's live and how hot hot is. Over the years working with RF and transmitters I've been hit with RF and DC to 1800V (ouch!) and LF AC power to 200V/400hz. Some were annoying, a few painful, one nearly bluecrossed me and the better ones left scars (and a willingness to NOT stick fingers in). Allison From kmar at lle.rochester.edu Mon Feb 28 12:34:48 2000 From: kmar at lle.rochester.edu (Ken Marshall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Sony SMC-70 info In-Reply-To: <38BA0369.9A4E915A@infinet.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000228133256.00aba930@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> Jeff: Somewhere at home I have a users manual for the SMC-70. If I can find it, I can make you a photocopy if you're intersted. Regards, At 12:11 AM 02/28/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Hi all... > >I am still looking for any information I can find on a Sony SMC-70. User >Manual, pinout diagrams etc. Any info would be appreciated. I have CP/M >disks. > >tia >jeff duncan Kenneth L. Marshall Research Engineer, Optical Materials Laboratory for Laser Energetics University of Rochester 250 East River Road Rochester, NY 14623 Phone:(716)-275-8247 Fax: (716)-275-5960 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 28 13:24:33 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <001001bf8204$3fb26840$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: The recurring spec that I keep seeing is 20 Hz at 90V. I don't know whether that is peak to peak or RMS. Most phones will respond to a wide range, and there are almost certainly different specs used in different places. Yes, it DOES bite. In the right special cicumstances, it COULD kill, but death is unlikely. Zapping your kid brother is NOT a good idea. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The ringing voltage is over 250 volts peak-to-peak but at a high enough > voltage to make you jerk your hand away if you touch it. The voltage range > that's most dangerous is from 25volts to about 60 volts, as it won't make > you jerk your hand (or other body part) away, yet it is capable of > disrupting normal operation of the cardio-vascular system. > > I've never seen a precise write-up of what it takes to kill you, but I'd > avoid contact with voltages such as this just to avoid the pain. > > Dick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Lane > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, February 28, 2000 8:25 AM > Subject: Re: Is ringing voltage dangerous? > > > >At 05:56 28-02-2000 -0800, you wrote: > > > >>You know, I've been told it's painful, but is it dangerous? > > > > > > > > Any voltage along those lines can be dangerous if it passes through the > >chest. My understanding is that it takes less than 20mA of current flow to > >kill a person. > > > > Be safe rather than sorry. > > > > > > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > > -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 28 12:59:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <13527306955.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Feb 28, 0 05:56:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1188 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000228/af0ca486/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 28 12:50:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: HP2100 more minor progress In-Reply-To: <00fd01bf81a0$9e2d90c0$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Feb 27, 0 10:02:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1574 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000228/9584fe58/attachment.ksh From dburrows at netpath.net Mon Feb 28 15:00:12 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? Message-ID: <12c401bf822e$fc345da0$a652e780@L166> >RULE 1, unless the voltage is very low it _can_ be dangerous. Low is hard > number be exact about but, over 12-30V is the watch out zone. >RULE 2, All efforts are to be made to avoid crossing the heart or chest > as a possible path for safety. One hand in pocket rule is derived > from this. >RULE 3, if you not sure, make sure. get a meter and find out if it's live > and how hot hot is. I just want to add a rule - Don't always trust what the meter says. I took 1950 v from an electron multiplier supply because the meter read around 40 volts. There was a common failure mode of this supply that it would shut down to 40 v. Instead of walking around to shut it off before disconnecting the meter (after all the supply was dead right? ) I just disconnected the meter. Surprise the supply was good and the meter was dead. I almost was also. I had severe cramps in that arm and shoulder for almost 2 days. Dan >Over the years working with RF and transmitters I've been hit with RF and >DC to 1800V (ouch!) and LF AC power to 200V/400hz. Some were annoying, >a few painful, one nearly bluecrossed me and the better ones left scars >(and a willingness to NOT stick fingers in). > > >Allison > > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Feb 28 15:31:31 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: About the ringing voltage question... Message-ID: <13527389801.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> No, I wasn't really gonna zap my kid brother! That was a hypothetical question. I was more worried about zapping myself, and I try to follow the one-hand-in your-pocket rule whenever I can. I know better than to zap anyone with anything I wouldn't zap myself with. (But a good shot of signal voltage (+28VDC, 2 amps) across his earlobes next time he gets out of the shower is very tempting! J/K!) Oh, and the 9V battery story, I got told it was a Navy guy who fell on his voltmeter probes. It's probably another urban legend. ------- From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Feb 28 15:44:58 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Cipher F880 Manual (copy) Available In-Reply-To: <000201bf820e$c709bb40$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: I didn't expect such a response for this! Tell you what I'll do, since I don't really have the proper facilites for making good copies of the extended pages...I'll just scan it and post it within the next couple of days to the web site. BTW, the actual nice paper copy I have was spoken for within 5 minutes or so of my original post... Cheers, Aaron From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Feb 28 16:22:10 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <001001bf8204$3fb26840$0400c0a8@winbook>; from edick@idcomm.com on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:55:33AM -0700 References: <001001bf8204$3fb26840$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000228172210.B25177@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:55:33AM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The ringing voltage is over 250 volts peak-to-peak but at a high enough > voltage to make you jerk your hand away if you touch it. The voltage range > that's most dangerous is from 25volts to about 60 volts, as it won't make > you jerk your hand (or other body part) away, yet it is capable of > disrupting normal operation of the cardio-vascular system. I guess it depends on a lot. When I was in 6th grade I tried to build my own inverter, using a 12V lantern battery and a buzzer in series with the secondary of a doorbell transformer. Didn't get 110V like I was hoping but it gave off a nice 50 V according to my voltmeter (the finest that $8.95 would buy at Shack!). So being the well-adjusted, popular kid I was, I installed the whole mess in a lunch box and went to school and zapped everyone who didn't jump out of the way fast enough! No real ill effects (well I think I got punched a few times for some reason, but that's different), but I suspect the key was that it was probably a pretty low duty cycle, and more importantly I used a normal 110V cord and plug for the 50V end, so it was being applied to only 1/2" of skin, as opposed to going in one arm and out the other etc. Naturally my friends (the few I had left after that) wanted in, so they put together high voltage lunch boxes too. One friend's father worked for an electronics company (General Scanning in Watertown, MA, I never really understood what they make though) and used to hang around there after school, and one of the engineers liked the idea and put together a little transistor inverter circuit for him which got 170 V instead of 50. The engineer wisely put a big series resistor on so no one got hurt by that either, it bit a lot harder though, and the kid was able to fool people into getting into range because at least *his* lunch box wasn't loudly buzzing! Anyway in retrospect, this was all insanely dangerous, because it *really* depends on how good a connection you get, how dry the person's skin is, whether they have any unknown heart problems, etc. I've *heard* that it's possible to build up a resistance to this kind of thing but that sounds pretty fishy to me, it's not that kind of thing. I think it's more just hit and miss, I've zapped myself with all kinds of voltages as I'm sure most people on this list have, but still you occasionally hear of someone being killed by some pitiful amount just because it caught them the wrong way. Did anyone see the tape a few months ago on 60 Minutes or Dateline or whatever, showing the two founders of a company that sells "air tasers" demonstrate their supposed safety by shooting each other with them? I was impressed, it looked a no-kidding-around shock... And the needles have gotta hurt too, unless I misunderstood that part. I assume it's high frequency or uses short pulses or something though. And the nice thing about small shots of really high voltages is, charred skin doesn't conduct nearly as well! Built-in fail safe system... well maybe not! John Wilson D Bit From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Feb 28 16:19:11 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: RT-11 version 2 manual available... References: Message-ID: <38BAF45F.23C89A51@idirect.com> >Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > I finally got the rest of the RT-11v2 System Reference Manual online > tonight: > http://www.prinsol.com/~aaron/classiccmp/rt11v2manual/ Jerome Fine replies: Thank you for your efforts. Any old RT-11 manuals are appreciated. Now, does anyone have any V2.x distributions? Also, I downloaded one of the files and it is just a bunch of funny characters. I am using W95 and I am at the less than dummy level. Can you please help? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From dogas at leading.net Mon Feb 28 16:10:27 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Am2901 sbc Message-ID: <000601bf8238$a158e400$ca646464@dogclient01> I snapped a few cheesy shots of the AMD sbc but my camera is flaking out and the imaging is marginal. However, http://users.leading.net/~dogas/am2901.gif shows the entire board, and http://users.leading.net/~dogas/am2901display.gif zooms in a little on the LED displays.. Cheers - Mike: dogas@leading.net From red at bears.org Mon Feb 28 17:12:16 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Symbolics Message-ID: Howdy; I've long been intrigued by Symbolics LISP machines and I finally had the opportunity to get one to poke at. (English grammar now requires me to point out that I took advantage of that opportunity. (: ) I've been thumbing through some of the docs to get a better idea of how things work, which effort has lead me to two questions: 1) Where am I likely to find a mouse for this beast? I haven't one and it appears as though the environment expects to use one. 2) Can the FEP software be loaded onto a virgin disk by someone other than Symbolics? The disk in my system may have problems, and as near as I can tell the machines arrived new with at least a bare modicum of software on the disk. Inquiring minds want to know. ok r. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 28 16:27:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <12c401bf822e$fc345da0$a652e780@L166> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Feb 28, 0 04:00:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1789 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000228/71a65722/attachment.ksh From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Feb 28 17:34:21 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Cipher F880 Manual (copy) Available In-Reply-To: ; from af-list@wfi-inc.com on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 01:44:58PM -0800 References: <000201bf820e$c709bb40$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <20000228183421.A25433@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 01:44:58PM -0800, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > I didn't expect such a response for this! Tell you what I'll do, since I > don't really have the proper facilites for making good copies of the > extended pages...I'll just scan it and post it within the next couple of > days to the web site. Wonderful, thank you!!! John Wilson D Bit From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Feb 28 17:36:08 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <20000228172210.B25177@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <000201bf8244$97c5e8a0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> I just want to thank John W. for his nice post. Did this make anyone recall the movie** where the guy builds up so high a resistance to electricity (actually an appetite) that the little lightbulb goes off over his head and he says 'Great, I can do anything, and they'll just give me the Electric Chair' the ide being that it would just feed him. **Man Made Monster (1941) http://us.imdb.com/Title?0033879 Back to topic, I have a relative that also has built shock machines at points throughout his life. No problems to report, but I'll have to withhold names,voltages,amperages and design factors since the lawyers out there are getting powerful. John A. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Feb 28 17:44:09 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: Eric Smith "Re: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO)" (Feb 24, 21:15) References: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> <20000224211549.16030.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 24, 21:15, Eric Smith wrote: > Hans wrote: > > What's proper or not is a matter of opinion, and in my mind > > open relays are a basic part of the mail system. > > Can you cite any legitimate use for a completely open relay? I can't > think of any. Lacking such examples, I agree with Scott G. Taylor's > statement: > > The simple fact-of-the-matter is, open relays are wrong. My ISP runs two SMTP mail servers, one open, the other not; for a very good reason. A large number of customers travel across Europe, and it is not practical for them to always dial the ISP at international rates. Hence, there are a number of agreements between several ISPs in several European countries, which allow customers registered with one ISP to use the points-of-presence of another. However, the roaming user typically wants to keep his normal email address (ie, have mail appear to originate from his normal address). To do so, he must either use his "home" server despite his temporary IP address/hostname not matching that server's domain (which would look like an attempted forgery to a spam-blocking server) or must use the "local" server and forge the sender address (which would also fail on any normal spam-blocking server). This practice is quite widespread in Europe. Jay's use of MAPS doesn't bother me, because I can (almost) always use the blocking server, and I expect that for most roaming users the inconvenience is minimal. However, until there's a sensible system to deal with roaming users' need to send mail as well as receive it, there will be open relays. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon Feb 28 18:27:52 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: ; from r. 'bear' stricklin on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 06:12:16PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000228172752.B3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 06:12:16PM -0500, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > I've long been intrigued by Symbolics LISP machines and I finally had the > opportunity to get one to poke at. (English grammar now requires me to > point out that I took advantage of that opportunity. (: ) Neato. Not sure I've ever seen one... can you put up some pictures? I heard they had nice keyboards with unshifted keys for all the bracket variations (<[{) so you don't have to keep hitting shifted-numbers all the time in lisp. Didn't know they used a GUI though. Is it X window or something special? Do they still have performance advantages over less specialized systems? What kind of hardware modifications would optimize execution of Lisp? -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed processing. http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From edick at idcomm.com Mon Feb 28 18:29:02 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? Message-ID: <000c01bf824b$fb0c2b20$0400c0a8@winbook> These comments are clearly made by someone who has experience with this matter! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, February 28, 2000 4:40 PM Subject: Re: Is ringing voltage dangerous? >> >> >> >RULE 1, unless the voltage is very low it _can_ be dangerous. Low is hard >> > number be exact about but, over 12-30V is the watch out zone. >> >RULE 2, All efforts are to be made to avoid crossing the heart or chest >> > as a possible path for safety. One hand in pocket rule is derived >> > from this. >> >RULE 3, if you not sure, make sure. get a meter and find out if it's live >> > and how hot hot is. >> >> >> I just want to add a rule - Don't always trust what the meter says. I took > >I believe that when working on live power lines and other circuits >carrying dangerous voltages, you test the meter on a known HV source, >then you test the line, then you test the meter again on said known HV >source. Then, normally, you connect the power line to earth, assuming >it's shown to be dead. And only then do you touch it. > >Some HV meters used for this sort of thing have a 'proving unit' (a small >PSU that gives out a few kV at a minimal current, running off batteries) >in the carrying case for these tests. > >> 1950 v from an electron multiplier supply because the meter read around 40 >> volts. There was a common failure mode of this supply that it would shut >> down to 40 v. Instead of walking around to shut it off before > >Ouch!. That's not pleasant :-(. Oh, and never trust indicator lamps (they >can burn out), and never trust on/off switches to isolate something. Pull >the mains plug and put it where you can see it (or some idiot will plug >it in again). > >I'll add another 'rule'... When you are sure something is not live, brush >it with the back of your finger. If, by some strange chance it _is_ still >live, your finger will be thrown off. Touch it with the front of your >finger and you'll be forced into better contact with it. > >-tony > From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon Feb 28 18:35:44 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>; from Pete Turnbull on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 11:44:09PM +0000 References: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> <20000224211549.16030.qmail@brouhaha.com> <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20000228173544.C3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 11:44:09PM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > until there's a sensible system to deal with roaming users' need to send > mail as well as receive it, there will be open relays. There is an RFC for a roaming IP scheme that allows you to get the same address even when plugging into a "foreign" network. However I've yet to see a working implementation of it anywhere. Seemed like a good idea. At one point there was talk in the ham community of using this method to give the Mir continuous connectivity via an array of amateur packet stations around the globe but I don't think it actually got done (and it's too late now). -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed processing. http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From edick at idcomm.com Mon Feb 28 18:39:33 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? Message-ID: <002d01bf824d$7377ffc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Careful, Joe . . . the ring voltage spec I remember said it was about 128 volts AC centered about the battery voltage, which is conventionally -48 volts. That's where the 80-volts at 20 hertz comes from, since that's what you see by way of a rectifier diode. That's not a true sinusoid, though, it's the humps from a sinusoid rectified to ground when the median of the sinusoid is at -48Vdc. I don't really know that this can kill or even harm you in some other major way, but it's unpleasant enough that it makes sense to avoid it. That urge to pull my hand out of the box when I'm bitten by a higher voltage than I like is what's made me unwilling to work on TV sets with their puched chassis, etc. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, February 28, 2000 9:45 AM Subject: Re: Is ringing voltage dangerous? >At 05:56 AM 2/28/00 -0800, Danial wrote: >>You know, I've been told it's painful, but is it dangerous? >>I just told another group about the supply I have (It outputs 110AC, 30hz, >>.06 amp), and realized it's 110. Isn't that dangerous? If I really did zap >>my kid brother with it, would it just hurt or could it really HURT him? >>------- >> > > No, it'll just hurt him. It'll sure get his attention though! I've been >shocked by them dozens of times. FWIW the normal (US) telephone ringing >voltage is only 48 volts or so. The old telephones and military field >phones with the hand cranks with put out over 100 volts. Those hurt! > > Joe > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 28 18:40:43 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: Re: Symbolics (Shawn T. Rutledge) References: <20000228172752.B3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <14523.5515.346231.666526@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 28, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > Do they still have performance advantages over less specialized systems? > What kind of hardware modifications would optimize execution of Lisp? Hmm...what processor instructions might one create to deal with a language with more parens than actual code? ;) -Dave McGuire From spc at armigeron.com Mon Feb 28 18:35:45 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Feb 28, 2000 11:44:09 PM Message-ID: <200002290035.TAA27385@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Pete Turnbull once stated: > > > Can you cite any legitimate use for a completely open relay? I can't > > think of any. Lacking such examples, I agree with Scott G. Taylor's > > statement: > > > The simple fact-of-the-matter is, open relays are wrong. > > My ISP runs two SMTP mail servers, one open, the other not; for a very good > reason. A large number of customers travel across Europe, and it is not > practical for them to always dial the ISP at international rates. Hiway (a subsidiary of Verio and their primary web hosting division) set up a system whereby you have to check your mail first before sending. They have a modified POP server that records the IP address of the person requesting their mail. Sendmail will then allow relaying from that IP address for a period of time before being disallowed again. Since most people check their email before sending, it's not that inconvienent to use. Something similar could probably be set up. -spc From donm at cts.com Mon Feb 28 19:13:22 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <20000228172210.B25177@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, John Wilson wrote: > On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:55:33AM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > The ringing voltage is over 250 volts peak-to-peak but at a high enough > > voltage to make you jerk your hand away if you touch it. The voltage range > > that's most dangerous is from 25volts to about 60 volts, as it won't make > > you jerk your hand (or other body part) away, yet it is capable of > > disrupting normal operation of the cardio-vascular system. > > I guess it depends on a lot. When I was in 6th grade I tried to build my own > inverter, using a 12V lantern battery and a buzzer in series with the secondary > of a doorbell transformer. Didn't get 110V like I was hoping but it gave > off a nice 50 V according to my voltmeter (the finest that $8.95 would buy > at Shack!). So being the well-adjusted, popular kid I was, I installed the > whole mess in a lunch box and went to school and zapped everyone who didn't > jump out of the way fast enough! No real ill effects (well I think I got > punched a few times for some reason, but that's different), but I suspect the > key was that it was probably a pretty low duty cycle, and more importantly > I used a normal 110V cord and plug for the 50V end, so it was being applied > to only 1/2" of skin, as opposed to going in one arm and out the other etc. All of this reminds me that when I was in high school there were a few of us that did some similar type things with a Model T spark coil - the old buzz box thing. We made a haywire installation in a car with the high tension lead connected to the car's bodywork and a ground lead trailing on the pavement or ground. Power to the thing was controlled by a push button switch. It was rather fun - we thought - to wait until someone placed a hand on the bodywork or, better yet, parked their fanny on a fender. The rest is left as an exercise for the student. But, even better was to ease up behind another car until bumpers touched and wait until the driver returned to board and was about to touch the door handle. ZAP! We did not continue too long as word spread rather rapidly! Oh yes, there was also the dog that elected to relieve himself on one of the wheels... - don > Naturally my friends (the few I had left after that) wanted in, so they > put together high voltage lunch boxes too. One friend's father worked for > an electronics company (General Scanning in Watertown, MA, I never really > understood what they make though) and used to hang around there after school, > and one of the engineers liked the idea and put together a little transistor > inverter circuit for him which got 170 V instead of 50. The engineer wisely > put a big series resistor on so no one got hurt by that either, it bit a lot > harder though, and the kid was able to fool people into getting into range > because at least *his* lunch box wasn't loudly buzzing! > > Anyway in retrospect, this was all insanely dangerous, because it *really* > depends on how good a connection you get, how dry the person's skin is, > whether they have any unknown heart problems, etc. I've *heard* that it's > possible to build up a resistance to this kind of thing but that sounds > pretty fishy to me, it's not that kind of thing. I think it's more just > hit and miss, I've zapped myself with all kinds of voltages as I'm sure > most people on this list have, but still you occasionally hear of someone > being killed by some pitiful amount just because it caught them the wrong > way. > > Did anyone see the tape a few months ago on 60 Minutes or Dateline or whatever, > showing the two founders of a company that sells "air tasers" demonstrate > their supposed safety by shooting each other with them? I was impressed, > it looked a no-kidding-around shock... And the needles have gotta hurt too, > unless I misunderstood that part. I assume it's high frequency or uses short > pulses or something though. And the nice thing about small shots of really > high voltages is, charred skin doesn't conduct nearly as well! Built-in > fail safe system... well maybe not! > > John Wilson > D Bit > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Feb 28 19:25:20 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: DSL Coming -- I may need help! Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Yes, I consider this on-topic because two of my intranet's servers will be MicroVAX III's. ;-) After much fencing with my local telco over loop lengths, and a snail-mail letter asking them why their competition (AT&T and Covad) were willing to do what they were not (at the time), I have a due date for my DSL connection! It'll be (minimum) 256K up/downstream guaranteed, and those rates could fluctuate a bit depending on the usual variables. This means that, shortly thereafter, I'll be taking full control of my own domain, including all servers, and (finally!) starting to set up what I hope will be a very useful FTP and web site for anyone who futzes with "classic" computing or electronic equipment (ham radio stuff included). This won't happen overnight! It's going to take some time to build up the thing the way I want it to be. With that in mind, I have a request: Those of you who are fluent with setting up servers (Unix/NetBSD-based) on a small intranet, and tying said intranet through a Livingston IRX/Firewall router to the outside world, AND that would be willing to help me keep from making too many mistakes in setting things up, please raise your hand and let me know if I can contact you periodically for help and advice. FWIW, I plan to have: Two DNS, two mail (for redundancy/fault tolerance), single news/FTP box combined, and a single web server. My current setup is on one of the InterNIC-reserved Class C net spaces: 192.168.42.0 - 192.168.42.254. The DSL "modem" (a misnomer if I ever saw one) will be a Cisco 675. Its Ethernet port will tie to one side of the Livingston router. Said router will provide firewalling and packet-filtering capabilities that the Cisco lacks. The Livingston will also provide NAT services to translate the five static IPs I get from USWest onto the private network side. I plan to use my own pair of DNS servers as primary and secondary hosts for my domain, with USWest acting as tertiary. The DNS boxes will be old Sun IPC's. They've already been configured. Thanks much! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon Feb 28 19:25:26 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <14523.5515.346231.666526@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from Dave McGuire on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 07:40:43PM -0500 References: <20000228172752.B3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <14523.5515.346231.666526@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000228182526.H3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 07:40:43PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On February 28, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > > Do they still have performance advantages over less specialized systems? > > What kind of hardware modifications would optimize execution of Lisp? > > Hmm...what processor instructions might one create to deal with a > language with more parens than actual code? ;) I doubt that is an issue... I've never written a lisp interpreter (wish I'd had one of those CS classes where they do that) but I'd guess the ASCII source code gets tokenized into some kind of tree structure which is probably interpreted by doing a tree traversal, so the parens are all gone by that point (they just tell it how to build the tree). But I can't think of any hardware optimizations that help with trees, other than the concept of a "stack", which is hardly a new one. Evidently there are some though. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed processing. http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Feb 28 18:53:54 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> (pete@dunnington.u-net.com) References: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> <20000224211549.16030.qmail@brouhaha.com> <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20000229005354.12898.qmail@brouhaha.com> Pete writes: > My ISP runs two SMTP mail servers, one open, the other not; for a very good > reason. A large number of customers travel across Europe, and it is not > practical for them to always dial the ISP at international rates. Hence, This can be solved by having your POP or IMAP daemon open up temporary access to your SMTP server from the roaming IP address after the POP or IMAP connection is authenticated. This is what I do for some of my users. If you use qmail there's a readymade program available, but it should be easy to set it up for Sendmail. Another approach is for the "roaming" relay to only accept email with both envelope sender and from headers of legitimate customers. This isn't as secure, but is still much better than a wide-open relay. If a spammer discovers the relay by scanning IP addresses for SMTP ports, they still won't be able to use it unless they also can determine who the legitimate users of that SMTP server are. IMNSHO, the disadvantages of the open relay *far* outweigh the benefit. > However, until there's a sensible system to deal with roaming users' need to > send mail as well as receive it, there will be open relays. Lots of sites are starting to refuse mail from open relays. Your ISP is going to have to come up with a better solution. From red at bears.org Mon Feb 28 19:40:31 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <20000228172752.B3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > Not sure I've ever seen one... can you put up some pictures? Yes, I had planned to. My SLR has been cranky recently, and I needed some photos from an event I performed at so I picked up one of those single-use jobs and have been filling up the rest of the roll with stuff from my collection. Let's hope they turn out respectably. (: One of the things I wanted to accomplish is to illustrate the amazing amounts of miniaturization 13 years can see. For example, one of the photos will be of one of the 1 MW ECC memory boards next to a pair of 32 MB ECC SIMMs from an HP 715. Anyway. > I heard they had nice keyboards with unshifted keys for all the bracket > variations (<[{) so you don't have to keep hitting shifted-numbers all > the time in lisp. The parens are where they normally are (over 9 and 0), but are also available unshifted where the square brackets would normally be. The square brackets have been moved to where the curly brackets would normally be (on this keyboar, above the unshifted parens) and the curly brackets have been moved to shifted keys which are in Siberia. What I find most amusing is the sheer number of 'modifier' keys on the keyboard. Caps-lock, shift, symbol, hyper, super, meta, control, and mode-lock. Plus perhaps one or two more which work as modifiers but which I don't recognise as such. According to the docs, the keyboard has 'unlimited rollover', meaning if you hit a key, the machine takes note of it no matter how many other keys you're holding down at the time. Mind-boggling. Apparently someone saw a great need for a user to be able to type an n-bit character set directly from the keyboard, where n is some ridiculous number like 12. > Didn't know they used a GUI though. Is it X window or something special? I'm not sure, but I don't think that X11 existed at the time this machine was current in 1987. X10, maybe, but the windowing system is its own thing. Nothing too fancy. I'd put it on par with the Apollo DM in terms of the kind of functionality it attempts to provide. > Do they still have performance advantages over less specialized systems? > What kind of hardware modifications would optimize execution of Lisp? Still? I'd be surprised. According to the User's Guide to Symbolics Computers: "The power, speed, and flexibility of Symbolics processing machines result from optimizing the hardware design to match the software environment. Some of the special architecture features include: Tagged architecture Multiple caches Hardware stack management Pipelined instruction cycles Parallel processing Hardware assisted garbage collection Fully ECC'ed system memory (end of quote) I'm very intrigued by what I've learned about the system so far and am anxious to start it up and give it a try. I get the feeling that the LISPM is something of a transputer (like the parallel i860 boards that Microway used to sell which fit in an Intel PC), but with the balance of power between the transputer board and its host (LISPM and FEP, respectively) swapped around so that instead of the PC's OS hosting software which crunches away on the transputer, the OS actually runs on the LISPM, and the FEP's job is to boot the environment and then to handle I/O once the environment is running. I don't feel like I've described it very articulately, but I only vaguely understand what's going on at this point anyway. Still. It's an interesting conceptual leap! ok r. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Feb 28 18:55:03 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <20000228173544.C3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> (rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com) References: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> <20000224211549.16030.qmail@brouhaha.com> <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20000228173544.C3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <20000229005503.12911.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Shawn T. Rutledge" wrote: > There is an RFC for a roaming IP scheme that allows you to get the same > address even when plugging into a "foreign" network. However I've yet to > see a working implementation of it anywhere. Seemed like a good idea. There are at least two working, publicly-available implementations for Linux. Neat stuff! From west at tseinc.com Mon Feb 28 19:49:00 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) References: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> <20000224211549.16030.qmail@brouhaha.com> <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <002901bf8257$2a3efd40$0101a8c0@jay> Pete wrote.... > My ISP runs two SMTP mail servers, one open, the other not; for a very good > reason. A large number of customers travel across Europe, and it is not > practical for them to always dial the ISP at international rates. Hence, > there are a number of agreements between several ISPs in several European > countries, which allow customers registered with one ISP to use the > points-of-presence of another. However, the roaming user typically wants > to keep his normal email address (ie, have mail appear to originate from > his normal address). To do so, he must either use his "home" server > despite his temporary IP address/hostname not matching that server's domain > (which would look like an attempted forgery to a spam-blocking server) or > must use the "local" server and forge the sender address (which would also > fail on any normal spam-blocking server). Open relays have NOTHING to do with the above situation - talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater - the above scenario is akin to saying "gee, I want to allow http through my firewall, so lets just open the firewall up for all ports and all services to and from anywhere". Sheesh. There are two other much more "standard" methods of allowing the above. First, the user could still check his email at his original/local provider via pop or imap, and he could send mail from the smtp server at his nonlocal/traveling provider. Second, any time an ISP sets up an agreement with another ISP to let their users roam, they could just add the roaming ISP's domain name to their sendmail.cw file to allow relaying from that domain only. The easy (and recommended) approach is to do BOTH of the above - one for inbound and one for outbound. On a properly configured pop and smtp server, neither of the above methods appear as forgeries, and neither method is blocked by any spam-blocking methods I've ever seen. Both of these situations are very easily handled by any modern mail client which lets you have more than one mail account configuration and for each account lets you specify inbound vs. outbound servers. Yes, this type of setup would cause really antique mail clients problems, but the hardware those old mail clients run on isn't exactly something portable you'd be carrying around the country . I might add also that neither of the above scenarious are problematic with MAPS either. Anyone have any other scenarious where a completely open relay is a good idea? :) Jay West From west at tseinc.com Mon Feb 28 20:13:07 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:12 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) References: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <003501bf825a$86607880$0101a8c0@jay> Bruce wrote... > connection! It'll be (minimum) 256K up/downstream guaranteed, and those > rates could fluctuate a bit depending on the usual variables. Um... you might want to check the fine print on the DSL service agreement. At least in SWBell (and I strongly suspect it's also true in other DSL carriers infrastructure) DSL speed guarantees are only from the copper jack in your house to your central office DSLAM. When your DSL traffic hits the DSLAM it is moved off from the PSTN to a cell relay ATM network, where all the DSL-offering ISP's (including SWBell if that's your ISP) actually compete for bandwidth availability. As a result, DSL speed guarantees have absolutely NOTHING to do with the internet speed you get. I won't go into examples, but I'm sure many folks here will immediately see the ramifications of this. Think of a file download where each packet comes at 256k but there's 300ms pauses between each packet! Add to this that most ISP's are implementing PPP over ATM for authentication, so there's also some minor extra overhead in addition to the above cell relay latency. Not to mention that DSL traffic is carried as UBR (unspecified bit rate) on the ATM cell relay network. This means no QOS, no commited cells, no standard ATM service classes of any kind! UBR basically means "We might get your packets there if we have absolutely nothing else to do. Then again, we might not". Just my own 2c worth. Jay West From west at tseinc.com Mon Feb 28 20:23:16 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: DSL Coming -- I may need help! References: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <004d01bf825b$f11ce220$0101a8c0@jay> Bruce wrote... > With that in mind, I have a request: Those of you who are fluent with > setting up servers (Unix/NetBSD-based) on a small intranet, and tying said > intranet through a Livingston IRX/Firewall router to the outside world, AND > that would be willing to help me keep from making too many mistakes in > setting things up, please raise your hand and let me know if I can contact > you periodically for help and advice. Bruce, I'd be happy to help. We haven't used Livingston gear for ages (we're all cisco gear now), but I still remember them pretty well. I'm very well versed with FreeBSD Unix, sendmail, wu-ftp, mysql, dns(bind), apache/stronghold, radius, etc. etc. Feel free to call me any time you have questions. Work number is 800-669-8203. Jay West From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Feb 28 21:02:12 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) Message-ID: <200002290302.WAA25268@world.std.com> Jay wrote >Bruce wrote... >> connection! It'll be (minimum) 256K up/downstream guaranteed, and those >> rates could fluctuate a bit depending on the usual variables. >Um... you might want to check the fine print on the DSL service agreement. I agree fully here! There's vast differences between DSL service from different suppliers. The el-cheapo suppliers might route all of your traffic to the other side of the continent and back before it goes anywhere. (Flashcom does this, for example.) The really good providers have real service level agreements, guaranteed time commitments, and other frills. (My DSL carrier, UUNet, will call me within a few minutes if for any reason they are unable to ping my DSL router. So whenever the power is out, or I'm just moving some wires here in the shop, I know who's going to be the first to call me.) (Another top-notch DSL provider is Savvis.) Also thoroughly check out your options in terms of multiple static IP's, etc., if this is important to you. These aren't important issues to folks who are using a PC-clone to surf the web over a DSL line, but if you want to hook older machines to your LAN to get to the outside world through DSL you do need to pay attention here. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Feb 28 21:17:32 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) References: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <003501bf825a$86607880$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <38BB3A4C.37F265A5@mainecoon.com> Jay West wrote: > > Bruce wrote... > > connection! It'll be (minimum) 256K up/downstream guaranteed, and those > > rates could fluctuate a bit depending on the usual variables. > > Um... you might want to check the fine print on the DSL service agreement. > At least in SWBell (and I strongly suspect it's also true in other DSL > carriers infrastructure) [Lots of perfectly accurate stuff, deleted] To add insult to injury, here in Pac*Hell land both PB and Covad consider DSL to be a "best effort" service; if they can't get it to work they can just walk away from the deal. I won't even talk about how fragile PBI's ATM backhaul from the DSLAMs has become. Me, I'm not giving up my T1. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Feb 28 21:29:22 2000 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: DSL Coming -- I may need help! References: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <38BB3D12.17A8565F@halcyon.com> Bruce, I have US West DSL and NWNexus handles my IP for http://www.jenner.net. I have 256/256, but I am provisioned for 640/272 on a Cisoc 675. I routinely get the full download bandwidth for sites that can feed such. We probably will have a different route, but there will be a common juncture somewhere in or near Seattle, I would presume. I have one static IP and hook the 675 up to an old 386 gateway/router/ firewall running http://www.sharethenet.com. It does NAT for my internal LAN and passes selected ports to my Web, FTP, SMTP, etc. servers. It sounds like your setup will be a little different, but I would be happy to advise you about experiences with US West DSL, which I've now had for 1.5 years. And this probably isn't Off Topic, because the 386 is 10 or more years old! It shows you what you can do with a "Classic Computer" -- it's still very useful with 8MB RAM, a floppy, two NICs, and no harddrive. And Linux, of course. Dave Bruce Lane wrote: > > Yes, I consider this on-topic because two of my intranet's servers will be > MicroVAX III's. ;-) > > After much fencing with my local telco over loop lengths, and a snail-mail > letter asking them why their competition (AT&T and Covad) were willing to > do what they were not (at the time), I have a due date for my DSL > connection! It'll be (minimum) 256K up/downstream guaranteed, and those > rates could fluctuate a bit depending on the usual variables. > > This means that, shortly thereafter, I'll be taking full control of my own > domain, including all servers, and (finally!) starting to set up what I > hope will be a very useful FTP and web site for anyone who futzes with > "classic" computing or electronic equipment (ham radio stuff included). > > This won't happen overnight! It's going to take some time to build up the > thing the way I want it to be. > > With that in mind, I have a request: Those of you who are fluent with > setting up servers (Unix/NetBSD-based) on a small intranet, and tying said > intranet through a Livingston IRX/Firewall router to the outside world, AND > that would be willing to help me keep from making too many mistakes in > setting things up, please raise your hand and let me know if I can contact > you periodically for help and advice. > > FWIW, I plan to have: Two DNS, two mail (for redundancy/fault tolerance), > single news/FTP box combined, and a single web server. > > My current setup is on one of the InterNIC-reserved Class C net spaces: > 192.168.42.0 - 192.168.42.254. The DSL "modem" (a misnomer if I ever saw > one) will be a Cisco 675. Its Ethernet port will tie to one side of the > Livingston router. Said router will provide firewalling and > packet-filtering capabilities that the Cisco lacks. > > The Livingston will also provide NAT services to translate the five static > IPs I get from USWest onto the private network side. > > I plan to use my own pair of DNS servers as primary and secondary hosts > for my domain, with USWest acting as tertiary. The DNS boxes will be old > Sun IPC's. They've already been configured. > > Thanks much! > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Feb 28 21:48:40 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: ; from red@bears.org on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:40:31PM -0500 References: <20000228172752.B3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <20000228224840.A25883@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:40:31PM -0500, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > What I find most amusing is the sheer number of 'modifier' keys on the > keyboard. Caps-lock, shift, symbol, hyper, super, meta, control, and > mode-lock. Plus perhaps one or two more which work as modifiers but which > I don't recognise as such. I briefly was allowed to use the Slimebolics 3600 (??) that RPI used to have, and I remember the keyboard as being completely *insane*. As in, you had to stare into the sea of keys for a while before you even noticed the QWERTY part. Really vast... And the command processor seemed to have TOPS-20-like command completion, only it was turned on all the time (not just when you press ESC) so stuff would jump in front of the cursor while you were typing (and IIRC the capitalization would be "fixed" after you went by?). All a bit florid for my tastes but anyway I certainly respect it when a project goes all out like that, it certainly *felt* a lot more luxurious than a Sun running KCL or whatever the other machines were doing. I never really got the hang of thinking in Lisp though... John Wilson D Bit From whdawson at mlynk.com Mon Feb 28 21:51:57 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: INTERSIL ICL7601CPD info needed Message-ID: <000201bf8268$534e18e0$35e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Hello all, I just obtained a box of goodies, and these Intersil ICL7601CPD 14 pin ceramic dips were in the lot. I can't seem to locate any information on them. Can anyone give me a clue? BTW, also in the box were a bunch of common NOS (mid 1970s era) TTL, 2 Zilog Z-80s, and a National Semi DT1050 Digitalker Standard Vocabulary Kit still in the original NS box in an antistat bag, along with the DT1050 docs Thanks, Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Feb 28 22:05:26 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) In-Reply-To: <000228221510.256028be@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000228200526.009a4a00@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:15 PM 2/28/00 -0500, you wrote: >Jay wrote >>Bruce wrote... >>> connection! It'll be (minimum) 256K up/downstream guaranteed, and those >>> rates could fluctuate a bit depending on the usual variables. >... >Also thoroughly check out your options in terms of multiple static IP's, etc., >if this is important to you. These aren't important issues to folks who are >using a PC-clone to surf the web over a DSL line, but if you want to hook >older machines to your LAN to get to the outside world through DSL you do >need to pay attention here. ...or, look into IP Masquerading. I'm running that through my Linux box, which also hosts my web server and it all runs quite well. My other Linux boxes, the occasional Windoze box, and just about anything else I drop in the net seem quite content, and it all appears as a single static IP address to the rest of the world... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Feb 28 22:05:35 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) Message-ID: <200002290405.XAA29053@world.std.com> Here it is, 24 hours down the log. I have recieved quite a few thoughtful e-mails from various Folk on this List: Thank you all. I have given even *more* thought to my situation here, in light of various developments, and will try an experiment, vizt., I will dump some of the Junk... and believe me some of it's no more than scrap.... list to follow. ;} I will place some items in a long-term storage facility that I have currently warehousing one of my oldest 'dormant' hobbies... my lovely ten-rank pipe organ, which come to think of it, would probably fit where the computers are now.... no, forget it. I will concentrate on a few systems, and NOT collect any more stuff for the nonce. The offer to sell my Vintage Computer Collection is hereby withdrawn, and again, my great "thank yous" to all who responded. It was a valuable exercise for me, if nothing else. Guess I'm a hard core mainline computer junkie. The MINC is *still* going to CCHM. sigh. Cheers John From edick at idcomm.com Mon Feb 28 23:03:35 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: INTERSIL ICL7601CPD info needed Message-ID: <000801bf8272$55e7cb00$0400c0a8@winbook> Harris recently spun the Intersil division off into its own entity. Believe it or not, you may find data at www.intersil.com. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Dawson To: Classiccmp@Classiccmp. Org Date: Monday, February 28, 2000 9:00 PM Subject: INTERSIL ICL7601CPD info needed >Hello all, > >I just obtained a box of goodies, and these Intersil ICL7601CPD 14 pin >ceramic dips were in the lot. I can't seem to locate any information on >them. Can anyone give me a clue? > >BTW, also in the box were a bunch of common NOS (mid 1970s era) TTL, 2 Zilog >Z-80s, and a National Semi DT1050 Digitalker Standard Vocabulary Kit still >in the original NS box in an antistat bag, along with the DT1050 docs > >Thanks, > >Bill > >whdawson@mlynk.com > > From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 28 11:03:49 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? References: Message-ID: <003601bf8238$73fb6d20$8ce893c3@proteus> Hi Tony, >....And the most likely cause of that is a shorted flyback >transformer.... >....Seen it dozens of times.... Thanks, it's what I feared....I was kind of hoping it would be something else. > Pull the case and look at the flyback transformer.... >....Most likely it'll be visibly cracked! The unit is currently at the bottom of a (large) pile of pending projects, I've gotta pull some stuff from that pile this week so I'll drag it out and take a look. I've got several other 320/330/340's so it's not exactly a top priority IYKWIM? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 28 11:07:43 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard References: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus>; <200002220540.XAA08286@garcon.laidbak.com> <018a01bf7d69$4b358520$59eb93c3@proteus> <20000222133554.B6016@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <003701bf8238$74c4d7a0$8ce893c3@proteus> Hi, > ESC should definitely be on the left.... >....whereas if it's next to the "1" it's not as far a >reach in the first place. I kind of like it situated next to the "1", but I suppose that's because most of the systems/terminals I've used over the years had it there. Actually, having it at the top left corner of the numeric pad is surprisingly handy. My 84-key AT keyboard has it there, I didn't like it at first but soon got to appreciate it's presence there. :-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 28 11:48:35 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard References: <200002230355.VAA22275@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <003801bf8238$77072680$8ce893c3@proteus> Hi Paul, > I guess it's personal preference, but I don't like the >128/Plus keyboards as much. Felt sorta weird to me. IKWYM, the keys seem to travel an awful long way before they register. Might be my typing style, but my fingers start aching after I've used the keyboard for a while. I still quite like it though for some reason.... >....And I'm still not that fond of the extended boards.... I've only used one a few times on a friend's machine. Seemed OK. Probably my only criticism was that the keys didn't travel far enough.... :-)) I know....I tend to judge all keyboards by my trusty 1985 AT keyboard nowadays.... >>....Toshiba T3100SX (for which I need a working power controller >>PCB) > >....but it wouldn't have helped you any. I tried to power it up for >fun, and nothing but the smell of previously toasted electronics.... Yep, from what I've been able to find out the power controller is notorious for failing in these machines. And you don't want to know what Toshiba want for a replacement board.... Unfortunately I don't have the schematics and since it uses several proprietary Toshiba chips (at least two MCUs I understand) I can't really make much of a stab at fixing it....not to mention that it's mostly SMD technology.... :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From whdawson at mlynk.com Mon Feb 28 23:39:42 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: INTERSIL ICL7601CPD info needed In-Reply-To: <000801bf8272$55e7cb00$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <000f01bf8277$618098c0$35e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> Harris recently spun the Intersil division off into its own -> entity. Believe -> it or not, you may find data at www.intersil.com. -> -> Dick Thanks Dick, but that was only the first of many sites I tried. Lots of information on the 7660 (how well I remember that one, used it in a couple of designs). I wish I knew where my old Intersil data book went. Bill -> -> >Hello all, -> > -> >I just obtained a box of goodies, and these Intersil ICL7601CPD 14 pin -> >ceramic dips were in the lot. I can't seem to locate any information on -> >them. Can anyone give me a clue? -> > -> >BTW, also in the box were a bunch of common NOS (mid 1970s era) TTL, 2 -> Zilog -> >Z-80s, and a National Semi DT1050 Digitalker Standard -> Vocabulary Kit still -> >in the original NS box in an antistat bag, along with the DT1050 docs -> > -> >Thanks, -> > -> >Bill -> > -> >whdawson@mlynk.com -> > -> > -> From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 29 00:09:48 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) In-Reply-To: <003501bf825a$86607880$0101a8c0@jay> References: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000228220948.00966d70@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 20:13 28-02-2000 -0600, you wrote: >Not to mention that DSL traffic is carried as UBR (unspecified bit rate) on >the ATM cell relay network. This means no QOS, no commited cells, no >standard ATM service classes of any kind! UBR basically means "We might get >your packets there if we have absolutely nothing else to do. Then again, we >might not". So what am I supposed to do? I want control of my own servers, and I can neither afford nor justify a frame relay private circuit. Also, I have to wonder about something. If everything you say is true, you are implying also that DSL service stinks. If that's truly the case, why has it become such a runaway success? I think I'll wait to see how it actually performs before I slap it down. I'm not committed to any type of minimum service contract, so I really don't have a lot to lose. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 29 00:13:09 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) In-Reply-To: <000228221510.256028be@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000228221309.00968200@mail.bluefeathertech.com> >I agree fully here! There's vast differences between DSL service from >different suppliers. The el-cheapo suppliers might route all of your Let me clarify: The DSL service AND Internet pipe are going to both be provided by USWest. I have read consumer-produced reviews of both. The impression I get from those is that the service is worth it -- quite speedy, etc. -- but their tech support could use some work. This is no different than what I currently have, so I'm not really losing much (if anything). >Also thoroughly check out your options in terms of multiple static IP's, etc., Read my original message. I get five usable static IPs, and three others that are reserved for DNS. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Feb 29 01:15:07 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000228220948.00966d70@mail.bluefeathertech.com>; from kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 10:09:48PM -0800 References: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <003501bf825a$86607880$0101a8c0@jay> <3.0.5.32.20000228220948.00966d70@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <20000229021507.A26387@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 10:09:48PM -0800, Bruce Lane wrote: > Also, I have to wonder about something. If everything you say is true, you > are implying also that DSL service stinks. If that's truly the case, why > has it become such a runaway success? (I don't have DSL but...) I think the point is that the quality varies and there are no guarantees. I have a friend who moved to Ann Arbor, MI, a year or so ago (since moved on to Redmond, WA, the horror!) and he went out of his way to choose an apartment based on it being in a DSL service area. Apparently for the first several months he had the line, it was *far* slower than a dialup modem connection. There was just something freakishly wrong with it, but it did eventually get the bytes through so of course, he still had to pay his bill. Eventually the phone co. tweaked something and got decent performance out of it but he wasn't too happy. I have Road Runner here (the Albany NY area was one of the test markets so we got it way early, our payback seems to be, no DSL even though everyone else in the world has that already), and it's another one of these things with wonderful theoretical max numbers, but the real-life numbers are all over the place. Sometimes I can get 200 KByte/second FTP speeds, other times it's so slow that my telnet connections drop. And I love the fact that when I connect from my home Linux box to dbit.com, the connection goes from here, to Boston, to New Jersey, then finally to dbit.com which is located at the ISP two blocks from my house. So I guess they're too cheap to make *real* routing deals. John Wilson D Bit From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 29 01:12:02 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: Re: Symbolics (Shawn T. Rutledge) References: <20000228172752.B3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <14523.5515.346231.666526@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20000228182526.H3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <14523.28994.177600.899382@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 28, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > > Hmm...what processor instructions might one create to deal with a > > language with more parens than actual code? ;) > > I doubt that is an issue... I've never written a lisp interpreter (wish > I'd had one of those CS classes where they do that) but I'd guess the > ASCII source code gets tokenized into some kind of tree structure which > is probably interpreted by doing a tree traversal, so the parens are all > gone by that point (they just tell it how to build the tree). But I can't > think of any hardware optimizations that help with trees, other than the > concept of a "stack", which is hardly a new one. Evidently there are some > though. 'Twas a joke, man... -Dave McGuire From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Feb 29 01:59:17 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: Eric Smith "Re: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO)" (Feb 29, 0:53) References: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> <20000224211549.16030.qmail@brouhaha.com> <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20000229005354.12898.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <10002290759.ZM1817@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 29, 0:53, Eric Smith wrote: > Pete writes: > > My ISP runs two SMTP mail servers, one open, the other not; > This can be solved by having your POP or IMAP daemon open up temporary > access to your SMTP server from the roaming IP address after the POP or > IMAP connection is authenticated. This is what I do for some of my users. > If you use qmail there's a readymade program available, but it should be > easy to set it up for Sendmail. That's one of the methods being trialled by my ISP (they use Exim for (E)SMTP). They'r also loking at some sort of password-based authentication but I don't know how that works. > Another approach is for the "roaming" relay to only accept email with both > envelope sender and from headers of legitimate customers. This isn't as > secure, but is still much better than a wide-open relay. If a spammer > discovers the relay by scanning IP addresses for SMTP ports, they still > won't be able to use it unless they also can determine who the legitimate > users of that SMTP server are. True, but that requires spoofing the envelope sender address, which isn't so easy to do on some systems. It also requires even more setup for the ISP than Jay's suggestion of adding domains to sendmail.cw. I know of one common SMTP package (Mercury, for Novell) that allows a simpler system. It's much less secure, because it doesn't really check the addresses; it merely relies on the From address matching the server's own domain. Needless to say, that's easy for anyone -- including a spammer -- to spoof. > > However, until there's a sensible system to deal with roaming users' need to > > send mail as well as receive it, there will be open relays. > > Lots of sites are starting to refuse mail from open relays. Your ISP is > going to have to come up with a better solution. Indeed, and they are looking. IPv6 should eventually remove the problem, of course, but that's some way off. Anyone know the number of the RFC for roaming IP, which Shawn mentioned? I'd like to take a look at it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Feb 29 01:59:19 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: "Jay West" "Re: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO)" (Feb 28, 19:49) References: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> <20000224211549.16030.qmail@brouhaha.com> <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <002901bf8257$2a3efd40$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <10002290759.ZM1821@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 28, 19:49, Jay West wrote: > Pete wrote.... > > My ISP runs two SMTP mail servers, one open, the other not; > Open relays have NOTHING to do with the above situation - talk about > throwing the baby out with the bathwater - the above scenario is akin to > saying "gee, I want to allow http through my firewall, so lets just open the > firewall up for all ports and all services to and from anywhere". Well, maybe, which is why the European ISPs (and mine in particular) are looking for another method. As more and more sites use MAPS or other services, the need for a better solution becomes greater. > There are two other much more "standard" methods of allowing the above. > First, the user could still check his email at his original/local provider > via pop or imap, they do that anyway -- *receiving* mail isn't part of the problem. > and he could send mail from the smtp server at his > nonlocal/traveling provider. But it would have the "wrong" address, and lots of people can't seem to cope with that. > Second, any time an ISP sets up an agreement > with another ISP to let their users roam, they could just add the roaming > ISP's domain name to their sendmail.cw file to allow relaying from that > domain only. Agreed, but we're talking about hundreds of ISPs, not just a few. And for reasons I've never really understood, quite a number of European ISPs, including one of the biggest UK providers, don't provide DNS PTR records for their dialups (so authentication is more difficult). I'm not personally advocating the use of open relays, BTW. The servers I help manage are not open, because we were hit a long time ago. I'm merely pointing out an instance where a bunch of ISPs have seen them as an interim solution -- and issue warnings to roaming users that some of their mail may bounce because recipient servers may block them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From elmo at mminternet.com Tue Feb 29 02:23:03 2000 From: elmo at mminternet.com (Eliot Moore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Docs for TC31? References: Message-ID: <38BB81E6.CDA8CDEB@mminternet.com> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > However, I did get to meet up with Marvin and Eliot Moore, from whom I > acquired a couple of nifty qbus boards...one of which is an Emulex TC31. > Does anyone have any documentation for this board, or have a minute to run > over the dip switches for me? As always, help is much appreciated... Minor correction: the tape coupler board is a TC03. The other nifty board was a DSD MFM controller. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Feb 29 03:00:26 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) In-Reply-To: <000228221510.256028be@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: I'm a fairly satisfied flascom user. Granted, I do have some service outtages now and again...but not too bad. Strict terms (*no* servers of any kind allowed, according to the agreement) but good speed - 384/64 for $49 per month. Aaron On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > Jay wrote > >Bruce wrote... > >> connection! It'll be (minimum) 256K up/downstream guaranteed, and those > >> rates could fluctuate a bit depending on the usual variables. > > >Um... you might want to check the fine print on the DSL service agreement. > > I agree fully here! There's vast differences between DSL service from > different suppliers. The el-cheapo suppliers might route all of your > traffic to the other side of the continent and back before it goes > anywhere. (Flashcom does this, for example.) The really good providers > have real service level agreements, guaranteed time commitments, and > other frills. (My DSL carrier, UUNet, will call me within a few minutes > if for any reason they are unable to ping my DSL router. So whenever > the power is out, or I'm just moving some wires here in the shop, I know > who's going to be the first to call me.) (Another top-notch DSL provider > is Savvis.) > > Also thoroughly check out your options in terms of multiple static IP's, etc., > if this is important to you. These aren't important issues to folks who are > using a PC-clone to surf the web over a DSL line, but if you want to hook > older machines to your LAN to get to the outside world through DSL you do > need to pay attention here. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From wrm at ccii.co.za Tue Feb 29 03:58:11 2000 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) Message-ID: <200002291051.MAA12888@ccii.co.za> Hi all >Lots of sites are starting to refuse mail from open relays. Your ISP is >going to have to come up with a better solution. I'm --><-- this close to blocking mail from all of .co.jp Open relays, *nobody* seems to have an abuse@ address, and we don't have customers over there anyway. :-) But I'll probably use the open relay database... W From at258 at osfn.org Tue Feb 29 06:49:19 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: UPDATE: Selling Collection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You know, you might be able to fit a very nice Wang VS-45 sysytem in that space... :) On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, John Lawson wrote: > > > Here it is, 24 hours down the log. I have recieved quite a few > thoughtful e-mails from various Folk on this List: Thank you all. > > I have given even *more* thought to my situation here, in light of > various developments, and will try an experiment, vizt., > > I will dump some of the Junk... and believe me some of it's no > more than scrap.... list to follow. ;} > > I will place some items in a long-term storage facility that I have > currently warehousing one of my oldest 'dormant' hobbies... my > lovely ten-rank pipe organ, which come to think of it, would probably > fit where the computers are now.... no, forget it. > > I will concentrate on a few systems, and NOT collect any more > stuff for the nonce. > > The offer to sell my Vintage Computer Collection is hereby > withdrawn, and again, my great "thank yous" to all who responded. It > was a valuable exercise for me, if nothing else. Guess I'm a hard > core mainline computer junkie. > > The MINC is *still* going to CCHM. > > sigh. > > > > Cheers > > John > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From Mzthompson at aol.com Tue Feb 29 07:48:40 2000 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: INTERSIL ICL7601CPD info needed Message-ID: "Bill Dawson" wrote: > I just obtained a box of goodies, and these Intersil ICL7601CPD 14 pin > ceramic dips were in the lot. I can't seem to locate any information on > them. Can anyone give me a clue? It is an Op-Amp, officially listed as Commutating Auto-Zero (CAZ) Operational Amplifier. It is listed in their 1979 databook. 1 C1 Capacitor across pins 1/2 2 C1 3 +IN 4 AZ Auto-Zero 5 -IN 6 C2 Capacitor across pins 6/7 7 C2 8 V- 9 Bias 10 Output 11 V+ 12 OSC 13 n/c 14 DR V+/V- supply up to +/- 18 volts HTH Mike From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 29 08:39:44 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) In-Reply-To: <20000229021507.A26387@dbit.dbit.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20000228220948.00966d70@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <003501bf825a$86607880$0101a8c0@jay> <3.0.5.32.20000228220948.00966d70@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000229063944.0095d5d0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 02:15 29-02-2000 -0500, you wrote: >(I don't have DSL but...) I think the point is that the quality varies and >there are no guarantees. I have a friend who moved to Ann Arbor, MI, a Ok. For the benefit of all concerned, I'll run some stats for the first couple of weeks or so and see what I get. Connection speed and number of hops to the backbone will take priority in the listing. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Feb 29 08:51:12 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Don Crabb, dead at 44 Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000229084728.018b1880@pc> >Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 15:00:40 -0500 >To: "Computer Book Publishing" >From: Tara Calishain >X-URL: > > >Studio B sadly passes along news of the death of Studio B Client Don Crabb. Don Crabb >was well-known and respected in the computer press. He wrote numerous books as well as >a column in the Chicago Sun-Times, which was syndicated by the Chicago Sun-Times >Features Syndicate into over 250 papers. In addition, Don taught at the University of Chicago, >and covered Internet topics on both TV and radio. > >He will be missed. Links : http://www.wgnam.com/shows/wgncom/index.html http://www.suntimes.com/output/crabb/xcrabb.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/obituaries/article/0,2669,SAV-0002280105,FF.html http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/crab28.html http://macweek.zdnet.com/2000/02/27/0227crabb.html From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Feb 29 09:16:29 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Don Crabb, dead at 44 In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000229084728.018b1880@pc> Message-ID: This is truly sad. Don had a lot of things going for him at this point in his life, and the Mac community has lost one of its true champions... On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, John Foust wrote: > > >Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 15:00:40 -0500 > >To: "Computer Book Publishing" > >From: Tara Calishain > >X-URL: > > > > > >Studio B sadly passes along news of the death of Studio B Client Don Crabb. Don Crabb > >was well-known and respected in the computer press. He wrote numerous books as well as > >a column in the Chicago Sun-Times, which was syndicated by the Chicago Sun-Times > >Features Syndicate into over 250 papers. In addition, Don taught at the University of Chicago, > >and covered Internet topics on both TV and radio. > > > >He will be missed. > > Links : > http://www.wgnam.com/shows/wgncom/index.html > http://www.suntimes.com/output/crabb/xcrabb.html > http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/obituaries/article/0,2669,SAV-0002280105,FF.html > http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/crab28.html > http://macweek.zdnet.com/2000/02/27/0227crabb.html > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Feb 29 09:26:22 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Docs for TC31? In-Reply-To: <38BB81E6.CDA8CDEB@mminternet.com> Message-ID: I thought so too, but the visual ID guide at http://vax.sevensages.org/hw/vfg/nquad.html (vaxarchive.org mirror?) definitely matches it as a TC31. The way it's numbered on the board, it reads "TC031", as if it weren't confusing enough... I'm hoping that the DSD card is straight-forward enough that I can use it without docs. I've had no luck at all finding anything on the Emulex card, though... Cheers, Aaron On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Eliot Moore wrote: > > > Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > However, I did get to meet up with Marvin and Eliot Moore, from whom I > > acquired a couple of nifty qbus boards...one of which is an Emulex TC31. > > Does anyone have any documentation for this board, or have a minute to run > > over the dip switches for me? As always, help is much appreciated... > > Minor correction: the tape coupler board is a TC03. > > The other nifty board was a DSD MFM controller. > > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Feb 29 12:46:52 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Document scanning questions (beating a dead horse?) Message-ID: I know we've discussed this ad nauseum here, but I had a specific question for those who have a little more experience with scanning documents. What I'm interested in doing is creating searchable, text-imbedded pdf files as well as tiff files. For those who've done this, could you give me a little rundown on the process you used? I've got Acrobat 3.0, which works fine to produce image-only pdf files that are, incidentally, slightly bigger than that source tiff files. So far I've been scanning bi-tonal at 300dpi, which seemed to me to provide the best quality/size ratio for the image files. Any help at all with this would be much appreciated... Aaron From west at tseinc.com Tue Feb 29 13:01:55 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: A tidbit of history on the HP 2100 to 21MX product line Message-ID: <00b901bf82e7$72783500$d402a8c0@tse.com> I just talked to a guy that worked (in an executive type position) years ago at a company called MeasureX. According to him, MeasureX bought a lot of HP2100's for their process control stuff. They got tired of the problems associated with the cpu card set consisting of 8 cards (9 with DMA - er - DCPC in HP lingo) and the problems with the wire-wrapped backplanes. They redesigned the 2100 cpu to fit on a single card - one PCB - no wirewrapping, all etched traces. They sold this redesigned cpu (actually just a relayout of the circuits) back to HP, and HP dubbed it the 21MX (where the MX is for MeasureX). This was also the origin of the "build your own modular HP", called the K series where you pick and choose cpu boards, slot assemblies, etc. at time of order. He also mentioned that HP used to charge (at the time) $1400 to "clean the backplane". MeasureX found out that the CE's were just taking out all the cards and taking the unit to a car wash and spraying them with pressured water and then sun-drying them in the back of a closed up station wagon in the summer. So---- MeasureX just started doing it themselves and save a huge sum of money :) I found these tidbits interesting! Regards, Jay West From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 29 16:14:31 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: ; from r. 'bear' stricklin on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:40:31PM -0500 References: <20000228172752.B3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <20000229151430.A6592@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:40:31PM -0500, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > "The power, speed, and flexibility of Symbolics processing machines result > from optimizing the hardware design to match the software environment. > Some of the special architecture features include: > > Tagged architecture Not sure what that is? > Multiple caches > Hardware stack management So I guess maybe that wasn't taken for granted back then huh? > Pipelined instruction cycles > Parallel processing Hmmm. > Hardware assisted garbage collection Now that'd still be cutting-edge if implemented on a modern processor... Just saw a slashdot article about it that pointed here... http://csl.cs.iit.edu/~dmm/ -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed processing. http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 29 16:16:31 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <14523.28994.177600.899382@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from Dave McGuire on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 02:12:02AM -0500 References: <20000228172752.B3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <14523.5515.346231.666526@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20000228182526.H3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <14523.28994.177600.899382@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000229151630.B6592@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 02:12:02AM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On February 28, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > > > Hmm...what processor instructions might one create to deal with a > > > language with more parens than actual code? ;) > > > > I doubt that is an issue... I've never written a lisp interpreter (wish > > I'd had one of those CS classes where they do that) but I'd guess the > > ASCII source code gets tokenized into some kind of tree structure which > > is probably interpreted by doing a tree traversal, so the parens are all > > gone by that point (they just tell it how to build the tree). But I can't > > think of any hardware optimizations that help with trees, other than the > > concept of a "stack", which is hardly a new one. Evidently there are some > > though. > > 'Twas a joke, man... Well I knew you were being facetious, I just took the opportunity to try to bait whoever has an opinion or actual knowledge of how LISP gets interpreted. Any takers? :-) -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed processing. http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Feb 29 15:48:46 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: DSL Coming -- I may need help! In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> (message from Bruce Lane on Mon, 28 Feb 2000 17:25:20 -0800) References: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <20000229214846.26278.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bruce Lane wrote: > The DSL "modem" (a misnomer if I ever saw one) will be a Cisco 675. The DSL "modem" really is a modem. In fact, it has a considerably more sophisticated modulator and demodulator than any other modem you're likely to have had experience with. By comparison, 56K modems (when operating in PCM mode) are much less like traditional modems than the DSL modem is. Of course, there's also a router or bridge in most of the DSL modems. From red at bears.org Tue Feb 29 16:44:47 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <20000229151430.A6592@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > > Tagged architecture > > Not sure what that is? On a tagged architecture, instruction data includes 'tag' bits which are used to type the data, and allow runtime data checking in hardware. SPARC processors use a tagged architecture. > > Multiple caches > > Hardware stack management > > So I guess maybe that wasn't taken for granted back then huh? The processor is stack-based and doesn't have any general purpose registers. I'm assuming this is what makes the hardware stack management more important. The "multiple caches" goes beyond the instruction and data caches common today. "Major caches are the Stack cache, the Memory Map cache, and the Instruction cache." Of these, the memory map cache is the one I find unique; it's an 8K (sic) RAM which "cross references the virtual page number and the physical page number". The instruction cache is part of an optional "Enhanced Performance" unit which I don't have, and also seems to be where the pipeline (three-stage) is implemented. ok r. From spc at armigeron.com Tue Feb 29 16:39:19 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <20000229151430.A6592@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at Feb 29, 2000 03:14:31 PM Message-ID: <200002292239.RAA26564@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Shawn T. Rutledge once stated: > > On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:40:31PM -0500, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > "The power, speed, and flexibility of Symbolics processing machines result > > from optimizing the hardware design to match the software environment. > > Some of the special architecture features include: > > > > Tagged architecture > > Not sure what that is? Each memory cell has a tag associated with it telling how to interpret the contents---this cell has an integer, this one is a pointer to a string, this one a floating point number, this is a pointer to a cons cell. Tagged memory in other words. -spc (The Intel 432 was a tagged architecture---meant for OOP programming but it never caught on ... ) From go at ao.com Tue Feb 29 17:02:55 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Core memory on a chip. Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000229144649.00d2f660@buffy.ao.com> I'm sure some of you have seen this already... http://www.ramtrom.com Ramtron is a producer of "ferroelectric ram" devices. Two weeks ago they announced a 256k bit part. To keep on topic: this is exactly what I need for my single-board Scenix-based PDP-8 emulator! No damn battery backup needed and you don't have to reload RIM every time you boot. -Gary From spc at armigeron.com Tue Feb 29 17:22:10 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <20000229151630.B6592@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at Feb 29, 2000 03:16:31 PM Message-ID: <200002292322.SAA27673@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Shawn T. Rutledge once stated: > > On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 02:12:02AM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On February 28, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > > > > Hmm...what processor instructions might one create to deal with a > > > > language with more parens than actual code? ;) > > > > > > I doubt that is an issue... I've never written a lisp interpreter (wish > > > I'd had one of those CS classes where they do that) but I'd guess the > > > ASCII source code gets tokenized into some kind of tree structure which > > > is probably interpreted by doing a tree traversal, so the parens are all > > > gone by that point (they just tell it how to build the tree). But I can't > > > think of any hardware optimizations that help with trees, other than the > > > concept of a "stack", which is hardly a new one. Evidently there are some > > > though. > > > > 'Twas a joke, man... > > Well I knew you were being facetious, I just took the opportunity to try to > bait whoever has an opinion or actual knowledge of how LISP gets interpreted. > Any takers? :-) Sure, I'll bite (Hmmmmm, yummmmmm but what's this sharp pointy thing? 8-) Instructions to help with pointer manipulations. Also a typed architecture would help as well. There isn't much in a LISP interpreter and a fairly minimalistic one can be written in a few hundred lines of code (although it'll probably be slow). The stack is implicit---you don't really use one explicitely (much like you don't really notice the stack when you make subroutine calls but it's used implicitely to keep track of return addresses). The basic storage unit (a cons cell is the traditional name) might look something like: typedef struct conscell { int type; union alltypes data; struct conscell *next; } conscell_t; A Lisp list is basically, a linked list of conscells with type information. If you can keep all this in a single word of memory that helps with memory consumption, and possibly specialized instructions to extract the fields out to help with speed, and possibly instructions to insert, delete and walk linked lists. I know the VAX had linked-list instructions. -spc (Have compiler, will code) From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Feb 29 16:46:54 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <200002292239.RAA26564@armigeron.com> (spc@armigeron.com) References: <200002292239.RAA26564@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <20000229224654.26739.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" wrote: > -spc (The Intel 432 was a tagged architecture---meant for OOP programming > but it never caught on ... ) Indeed. It was somewhat non-traditional even as tagged architectures went. Rather than tagging every memory location, memory was considered as objects. Each object has a type, which can either be a hardware-interpreted system type (such as Processor, Process, Port, Context, Domain) or a software- defined type. In a given Context (procedure/function invocation), software can only access objects for which that context has an access descriptor (AD). The AD is a capability, which means that it controls the access rights to the object pointed to. For instance, objects have hardware-interpreted read and write rights, as well as other rights that vary depending on the object type. Each object is divided into two parts, the data part and the access part. The access part contains ADs only. The data part can not contain ADs. The instruction set does not even provide any method whereby software could attempt to store an AD into the data part, or data into the access part. This split between ADs and data means that the software can never try to dereference other data as if it were an AD, nor can it corrupt an AD by overwriting it with random data. (There's no inherent protection against writing the "wrong" AD over the "right" one, if you have write rights to the segment.) The architecture is really quite elegant. The big problems with it are: 1) It's slow, due largely to the limits of the 1975-1981 technology used in the implementation. For instance, on the already-large dice, there was not room for instruction or data caches, although there was a small cache for segment information. Also, the data path between the two chips that made up the general data processor was too narrow. 2) The architecture doesn't map well to languages like C. It would be possible to implement a fully standards-compliant C compiler for the 432, but it is likely that the vast majority of existing real-world C code would not run correctly on the system, because most large C programs make architectural assumptions beyond what the C standard requires the platform to guarantee. I've put some information about the iAPX 432 on my web site: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/intel/iapx432/ As I think I've stated here before, I'm looking for ANY 432-related materials (documentation, software, chips, boards, systems, etc.). I've started work on a 432 simulator, but I expect it will take a long time to complete, and if I am unable to obtain a complete copy of the 432 cross-development software, I will be unable to verify the correctness of the simulator. So if you have anything, please let me know. Thanks! Eric From west at tseinc.com Tue Feb 29 17:18:14 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Core memory diagnostics advice request Message-ID: <002001bf830b$4265a5e0$0101a8c0@jay> Greetings; I've finally gotten (again) my HP2100's to the point where I can run real diagnostics. The memory architecture doesn't appear all that different from a PDP-8E at the board level anyways (there's a memory controller board, a load board, an ID board, an XY driver board, and the core array). My question is this: I heard from a reseller that one should run the memory diagnostics in loop mode for 48 to 72 hours before assuming the memory subsystem is a good one. Bear in mind that when the diagnostic is run without loop mode, it only takes about 8 minutes to complete. This would mean 360 passes being made in 48 hours. From others experience, is 48 hours really necessary? I mean, isn't a good 4 hours enough to test for heat problems, etc? Unlike the reseller, I don't need to be 100% positive a board is perfect before sending it to a customer, I just want to be reasonably sure I can remove the memory system from the list of possible trouble spots as I go on to test other things. I was hoping that there would be nothing about the HP core subsystem that would require that long of burn in, and thus the experience others have had with other systems might be valid experience. So how long do YOU loop memory diags to test a core memory system to be reasonably sane? Thanks in advance! Jay West From ss at allegro.com Tue Feb 29 17:39:54 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Core memory on a chip. In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000229144649.00d2f660@buffy.ao.com> Message-ID: <200002292341.PAA08087@opus.allegro.com> Re: > I'm sure some of you have seen this already... > > http://www.ramtrom.com The url is actually: http://www.ramtron.com BTW, one of the uglier and harder to read web pages that I've seen! Still, an interesting product, potentially. Stan (Background GIFs: just say NO!) Sieler Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 29 17:45:07 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: ; from r. 'bear' stricklin on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 05:44:47PM -0500 References: <20000229151430.A6592@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <20000229164507.C6592@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 05:44:47PM -0500, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > On a tagged architecture, instruction data includes 'tag' bits which are > used to type the data, and allow runtime data checking in hardware. SPARC > processors use a tagged architecture. Seems like a good idea. But there would be a limited fixed set of types available then. > > The "multiple caches" goes beyond the instruction and data caches common > today. > > "Major caches are the Stack cache, the Memory Map cache, and the > Instruction cache." Of these, the memory map cache is the one I find > unique; it's an 8K (sic) RAM which "cross references the virtual page > number and the physical page number". The instruction cache is part of an > optional "Enhanced Performance" unit which I don't have, and also seems to > be where the pipeline (three-stage) is implemented. Hmmm, wouldn't any MMU have to keep track of the virtual-to-physical mapping? Would it normally just do it in main memory if there isn't usually special cache for that? -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed processing. http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From west at tseinc.com Tue Feb 29 17:36:45 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: HP 2100 documentation request Message-ID: <002f01bf830d$d829e120$0101a8c0@jay> Greetings again! I'm in need of some printed documentation with regards to the HP2100 or HP21MX diagnostics. While each of the diagnostics are available separately, a large chunk of diagnostics are put on a single set of 3 paper tapes. I do have the tapes, but not the manual that goes with it. The manual is 24396-14001. That's the one I need as this "manual" actually is a manual on each diagnostic included in the three tapes above. Can any of the 2100 or 21MX folks check and see if they have this manual laying around? In the event no one has 24396-14001, I would also be able to just get along with the manuals on a few of the diagnostics. Those critical ones would be: 02100-90219 Core memory (2100/16/15/14) 24395-90001 Semiconductor memory (21MX) 02100-90221 Memory Parity Check 02100-90216 Power fail auto restart 24391-90001 General purpose register 24322-90002 Direct Memory Access (2100/21MX) Thanks for checking! Jay West From Technoid at cheta.net Tue Feb 29 18:01:39 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <20000228182526.H3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <200002292355.SAA24013@lexington.ioa.net> One thing you can do to optimize a tokenizing interpreter is to precalculate and store the goto and gosub destination and return addresses. This way the interpreter does not have to start at line 0 searching sequentially through the tree for the destination for a gosub but will just go there directly. Of course calculated destinations (ie: 10 if x then gosub x+x+1) totally ruin this system for that line of code. Basic XE and Basic XL from OSS used this feature in thier "FAST" command (a sort of post-tokenized address precompiler) to boost performance. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 29 18:10:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics Message-ID: <200003010010.TAA09514@world.std.com> To drag this in a different direction since the LISP discussion brought a few memory frags to the surface... Forth, LISP, PostScript and a few others I'll leave others to name were all similar in that they were stack oriented languages. I never worked with them much save for Postscript (it's core is Forth to me). Now, I vaguely remember a series of articles in Kilobaud, Dr Dobbs or maybe Byte on constructing your own forth like language in the early 80s. Anyone remember these? Are there copies? Allison From west at tseinc.com Tue Feb 29 18:00:44 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Electronic/Radio/Computer Swap References: <6d.1989414.25ead28f@aol.com> Message-ID: <009c01bf8311$323b6820$0101a8c0@jay> Someone wrote.... > > The annual Mike and Key Amateur Radio Club swap meet is coming up again at > > the Western Washington (Puyallup) Fairgrounds on Saturday, March 11, from > > 09:00-15:00 Pacific time. Parking is free, admission is $6.00 with kids > > under 16 free when accompanied by an adult. > > > One great swapmeet. Very large. Get there early. Or better yet get a table. Ok, where is this swapmeet? What city, state, etc...? And might they have old minicomputer stuff or is it mostly radio stuff? Jay West From rcini at msn.com Tue Feb 29 18:21:33 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Re. Document scanning questions (beating a dead horse?) Message-ID: <006b01bf8315$08336100$6464a8c0@office1> Aaron: I happen to like the combination of Acrobat Exchange 3.01 and my HP Scan Jet with document feeder. It's not blazingly fast, but it works. I have it c onnected to my AHA2940UW controller. Rich [ Rich Cini [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> From elvey at hal.com Tue Feb 29 18:32:29 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: Core memory on a chip. In-Reply-To: <200002292341.PAA08087@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: <200003010032.QAA26040@civic.hal.com> "Stan Sieler" wrote: > > Stan (Background GIFs: just say NO!) Sieler Hi Stan I find that if I drag my mouse with the select button I can at least read the darn things. What is even worse is when the picture file is corrupted. I'm sure they payed a lot to some jerk to make the web page without thinking about what browser would be looking at it. Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 29 18:50:00 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:13 2005 Subject: mpi (CDC) drive Message-ID: <200003010050.TAA02911@world.std.com> I have a MPI (CDC) 5.25 full height 2sided drive and some questions. Part number is 77711800 is this 35, 40 or "other" cylinders? is it 48tpi, 96 or maybe 100 tpi? It gets cranky from tracks 9-14 inward (even a Format) and it makes me wonder what it is or is it just flakey? Appearances suggest flakey but I'm making sure it's not an oddball MPI 100tpi. FYI: it's a NS* Advantage and it runs fine off a generic HH5.25/48tpi floppy. Anyone have a NS* CP/M OS manual for it. It has CP/M and it's apparently a NS* version for the Advantage and slightly strange compared to others I've seen? Allison From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 29 18:52:31 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Electronic/Radio/Computer Swap In-Reply-To: <009c01bf8311$323b6820$0101a8c0@jay>; from Jay West on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 06:00:44PM -0600 References: <6d.1989414.25ead28f@aol.com> <009c01bf8311$323b6820$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <20000229175231.A6998@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 06:00:44PM -0600, Jay West wrote: > Someone wrote.... > > > The annual Mike and Key Amateur Radio Club swap meet is coming up again > at > > > the Western Washington (Puyallup) Fairgrounds on Saturday, March 11, > from > > > 09:00-15:00 Pacific time. Parking is free, admission is $6.00 with kids > > > under 16 free when accompanied by an adult. > > > > > One great swapmeet. Very large. Get there early. Or better yet get a > table. > > Ok, where is this swapmeet? What city, state, etc...? And might they have Looks like it's near Puyallup in western Washington state. ;-) -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed processing. http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From elvey at hal.com Tue Feb 29 18:56:20 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <200003010010.TAA09514@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200003010056.QAA26363@civic.hal.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > Forth, LISP, PostScript and a few others I'll leave others to name Hi Forth and PostScript are quite similar but I wouldn't say that LISP was a stack based language. It uses stacks but most languages use stacks. In Forth, you have direct control of two stacks as necessary for the language. The differences that contrast the languages are post-fixed versus pre-fixed. Both of these are actually better than in-fixed that is used by most popular languages( flame bate ). Parsing rules are always the same, with no special cases to deal with or ambiguous implementation depended rules. Forth has the advantage that action is read left to right or "Do-it As You See It". LISP has the ability to concatenate several of similar operations like (+ ). LISP has the advantage over Forth in that all parameters are specific in the text. Both can do recursion with equal ease although many early Forth's did not explicitly define it. One of the big advantages of Forth and that is it has flexibility to add new capabilities in high level Forth or low level code and make it seem as though it were part of the language. LISP has a similar ability but the explicit parameter passing often makes the usefulness of this lost in the coding. Oh well, each to there own. IMHO Dwight From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 29 20:02:06 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Electronic/Radio/Computer Swap In-Reply-To: <009c01bf8311$323b6820$0101a8c0@jay> References: <6d.1989414.25ead28f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000229180206.0096d670@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 18:00 29-02-2000 -0600, you wrote: >Ok, where is this swapmeet? What city, state, etc...? And might they have >old minicomputer stuff or is it mostly radio stuff? Puyallup, WA, Jay. Southeast of Tacoma, Puget Sound region. I've seen older minicomputer stuff there, but it's not common. I think whatever shows up there this year may be largely because of what I bring out. ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Feb 29 20:24:30 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <200003010010.TAA09514@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000229202308.01874ee0@pc> At 07:10 PM 2/29/00 -0500, you wrote: >Now, I vaguely remember a series of articles in Kilobaud, Dr Dobbs or >maybe Byte on constructing your own forth like language in the early 80s. >Anyone remember these? Are there copies? There was a Byte Press book "Threaded Interpreted Languages" from back then. I have it on the shelf at the office, if you want the ISBN number. I think of Lisp as a list-based language, not stack-based. - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 29 20:25:57 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: INTERSIL ICL7601CPD info needed In-Reply-To: <000201bf8268$534e18e0$35e3dfd0@cobweb.net> from "Bill Dawson" at Feb 28, 0 10:51:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 800 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000301/58c4587c/attachment.ksh From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Feb 29 19:41:00 2000 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics Message-ID: <01JMHP8F2QPE9QV5W4@cc.usu.edu> >Now, I vaguely remember a series of articles in Kilobaud, Dr Dobbs or >maybe Byte on constructing your own forth like language in the early 80s. >Anyone remember these? Are there copies? There was an issue of BYTE dedicated to threaded languages; it's been a while since I read it, but IIRC it was pretty much devoted to FORTH. There was also a book which somehow was related to the articles that went through the process of building your own FORTH. Unfortuantely, I don't have a copy of that. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Feb 29 20:54:06 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: Need RS6K help Message-ID: <015001bf832b$1afbb880$9fe993c3@proteus> Hi, I've just gotten hold of an RS/6000 which appears to be a model 520 (7013?). Since the thing appears to be a server (POWERserver?), and thus has no display adapter, I need to get hold of at least one of the 10-pin to 25-pin serial port converter cables. Can anyone, preferably in the UK, help please? Also, does anyone know where I can track down a set of AIX 3.1.0 manuals - printed or electronic form? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From west at tseinc.com Tue Feb 29 20:50:35 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics References: <01JMHP8F2QPE9QV5W4@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <023001bf8328$ecb245e0$0101a8c0@jay> Someone wrote... > There was an issue of BYTE dedicated to threaded languages; it's been a > while since I read it, but IIRC it was pretty much devoted to FORTH. > There was also a book which somehow was related to the articles that > went through the process of building your own FORTH. Unfortuantely, I > don't have a copy of that. The first OS type design project I was ever offered was to write a run time forth interpreter and complete OS environment for it on Microdata Reality computers (subsequently McDonnell Douglas Computer Systems). As I recall they had some type of medical oriented accounting or business package written in forth and they wanted to make it run (without another underlying OS) on the Reality platform (which they owned). They offered me almost triple what I was currently making to be the lead engineer on the project. I was absolutely salivating at the thought of doing a complete OS design from scratch, but in subsequent interviews it was obvious to me that they would likely let me go once the project was written so I didn't take it. I've never touched forth since then. This is almost 20 year old memory cells trying to activate here, but I thought Forth was generally implemented by "compilation" into a non-standard pCode which was then run interpretively by a stack oriented run time engine. Thus, I would have said it was a stack oriented language. But I guess it depends on if you're looking at the language itself or how it is normally executed? Jay West From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 29 21:22:43 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics Message-ID: <200003010322.WAA10986@world.std.com> Forth and PostScript are quite similar but I wouldn't >This is almost 20 year old memory cells trying to activate here, but I >thought Forth was generally implemented by "compilation" into a non-standard >pCode which was then run interpretively by a stack oriented run time engine. That's one way of doing it, but the most traditional (and still most popular, at least from what I see) way of doing it is to compile straight to threaded machine code. Note that even though threaded code is usually most commonly associated with Forth and other "non-traditional" languages, the technique is applicable to old-line languages as well. For example, Fortran IV compilers on the PDP-11 could optionally compile to threaded machine code, usually producing smaller object code as a result. >Thus, I would have said it was a stack oriented language. But I guess it >depends on if you're looking at the language itself or how it is normally >executed? To me, at least, threaded means "you call a subroutine for everything". For instance, if you want to add two numbers, you push them onto a (or the) stack and call the add routine. It's the extreme opositte of "inline" code, to the point where you can think that you're working on a "virtual" machine that doesn't have the limitations of your "real" machine (probably why you've confused Forth with p-Code type intermediate representations - after all, conceptually they aren't that different!) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From nerdware at laidbak.com Tue Feb 29 21:48:15 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: Don Crabb, dead at 44 In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000229084728.018b1880@pc> Message-ID: <200003010348.VAA27707@garcon.laidbak.com> I heard this Monday and was shocked. I knew Don had been sick, but thought he was recovering. Don truly was a wonderful guy. I emailed him with questions on several occasions and he always went out of his way to respond, usually within a few hours! And he didn't know me from anyone. He was a gifted writer. I just couldn't get enough of his columns and articles. Intelligent, witty, and always fair. Sure, he was rabidly pro-Mac, but never blindly so. He wasn't afraid to criticize where he saw room for improvement. Always making suggestions to improve the State of the Mac. Don was engaged to be married for the second time (he took ill and was hospitalized on his wedding day -- truly sad) and was very happy with the way his life was going. Living in the Chicago area, I have listened to Crabby on the air over the years, both on his own show on WGN and on with local legend Steve Dahl, with whom he shared not only a love of techie stuff but also the same strange, twisted sense of humor. It was hard not to like Don. Dahl has a very touching commentary on Don's passing posted on his web page at www.dahl.com. If you read all the replies to Roger Ebert's eulogy posted on www.suntimes.com, you'll realize that this was a man that few people in the computer world didn't like. Damn shame. I always wanted to take a day off and take him to lunch. I, for one, am going to miss him. Rest in peace, Crabby. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From donm at cts.com Tue Feb 29 22:34:23 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: mpi (CDC) drive In-Reply-To: <200003010050.TAA02911@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Allison J Parent wrote: > I have a MPI (CDC) 5.25 full height 2sided drive and some questions. > > Part number is 77711800 Allison, I have a 96tpi MPI with Part number 77686000, so it is apparently not that. I also have a 100tpi MPI, bit it is installed and inaccessible now. - don > is this 35, 40 or "other" cylinders? > > is it 48tpi, 96 or maybe 100 tpi? > > It gets cranky from tracks 9-14 inward (even a Format) and it makes me > wonder what it is or is it just flakey? Appearances suggest flakey but I'm > making sure it's not an oddball MPI 100tpi. I'm sure that you have checked that the head assembly slides freely on the guide rods. > FYI: it's a NS* Advantage and it runs fine off a generic HH5.25/48tpi > floppy. Certainly points at the drive. > Anyone have a NS* CP/M OS manual for it. It has CP/M and it's apparently > a NS* version for the Advantage and slightly strange compared to others I've > seen? What is different about it? - don > > Allison > > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Feb 29 23:43:52 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <000229224135.25602547@trailing-edge.com>; from CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 10:41:35PM -0500 References: <000229224135.25602547@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000301004352.A30048@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 10:41:35PM -0500, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > That's one way of doing it, but the most traditional (and still most > popular, at least from what I see) way of doing it is to compile > straight to threaded machine code. I've never understood this. Evidently most/all of the FIG FORTHs produced threaded code, but I haven't found a single peep about it in the FIST standards that say it's an inherent part of the language. I've written FORTHs that did it both ways, very simple-minded in each case but I think it would be pretty easy to write a FORTH that at least pruned out most of the superfluous stack use (stuff that gets pushed and then popped right off) and could produce semi-decent machine code. > Note that even though threaded code is usually most commonly associated > with Forth and other "non-traditional" languages, the technique > is applicable to old-line languages as well. Totally. When I ported Small-C to the IBM 370, I had it produce threaded code, just because my head started to hurt whenever I thought about how to automate the allocation of base registers. Yeeccchh... My PDP-11 emulator has several different interpreters inside it for both threaded code (for the device bootstraps, and for composing complicated strings for log files) and tokenized code (for the keyboard script language), they come in really handy. Funny how this stuff seems to be dying out these days, but then again, if C is really bad at something, it's considered to be that something's fault, no big surprise I guess. It's a really great tool for cases where you're willing to lose a little speed to save a lot of space. John Wilson D Bit From west at tseinc.com Wed Feb 2 19:07:06 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: test Message-ID: <006101bf6de2$fe76d3a0$0101a8c0@jay> Test... Jay West From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 2 19:38:43 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: test References: <006101bf6de2$fe76d3a0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <0002022038570C.17380@vault.neurotica.com> On Wed, 02 Feb 2000, Jay West wrote: >Test... *burp* It works. -Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 2 19:52:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <006101bf6de2$fe76d3a0$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Feb 2, 0 07:07:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 462 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000203/13872725/attachment-0001.ksh From aek at spies.com Wed Feb 2 20:02:16 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: test Message-ID: <200002030202.SAA08294@spies.com> looks like it's working while the list was down, this was sent to me: Subject: Orphaned Altos 586 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I have a working system with all software and documentation. It NEEDS a good HOME. Can you help find one for this lonely machine? Reagrds Ron Tribble yehudi@pipeline.com From west at tseinc.com Wed Feb 2 19:47:40 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: List starting up.... Message-ID: <008a01bf6de8$a9179b00$0101a8c0@jay> Test part two..... Howdy folks. The classiccmp list appears to be working. There are still some questions about if digests are working properly among a few other housekeeping things that need to be more thoroughly tested. Please bear with us as we work out any kinks. First, some general points to everyone: *I* am not the classiccmp list owner or moderator, I only administer the servers where it runs. Derek still is the owner of the list and as such is the one who "calls the shots". Because of that, if there are any problems with the mailing list, please contact Derek and not me. I will gladly assist Derek anytime he requests it in any way he wishes. If there is a very critical issue that Derek can't respond to (out of town, sick, etc.) feel free to email me the request. However, depending on what you ask I reserve the right to say "That will have to wait until Derek can act on it" because I'm not here to "step on his feet". Of course if the list just simply isn't working at all, you can bet I'll take a look at it quickly. Please keep the list traffic low until Derek has a chance to make any announcements. I'm getting ready to email him the admin issues now. Quick summary: For help with majordomo, email majordomo@classiccmp.org with keyword "help" To subscribe, email majordomo@classiccmp.org with keyword "subscribe classiccmp" To unsubscribe.... that's obvious.... To send out list traffic, email classiccmp@classiccmp.org Final note - Anything I've just said can be over-ruled by Derek, so if he posts a startup announcement it'd be a good thing to read. Regards, Jay West From bobcaar at cyberdude.com Wed Feb 2 20:04:53 2000 From: bobcaar at cyberdude.com (Devon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <006101bf6de2$fe76d3a0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000202210453.007b21c0@mail.iname.com> Aloha? Whats happening with this? At 07:07 PM 02/02/00 -0600, you wrote: >Test... > >Jay West From elvey at hal.com Wed Feb 2 20:07:36 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: First real message In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002030207.SAA05393@civic.hal.com> Hi All I'm looking for tiny basic on the 6502. I'll take listings, binary, S format, Hex, PROMs or what ever. Thanks Dwight From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Feb 2 20:10:34 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: test References: <006101bf6de2$fe76d3a0$0101a8c0@jay> <0002022038570C.17380@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3898E399.A612AEF2@idirect.com> >Dave McGuire wrote: > On Wed, 02 Feb 2000, Jay West wrote: > >Test... > > *burp* > > It works. > > -Dave Jerome Fine replies: Hurrah!!!!!! ME ALSO!!!!! I wonder if you would prefer if the "Respond To" portion should be: "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" as it used to???? (Well it used to be: "classiccmp@u.washington.edu") I know that sometimes caused a bit of a problem for posts that were supposed to be off list, but I think that is the more intended aspect????? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From west at tseinc.com Wed Feb 2 19:59:14 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: test References: <3.0.1.32.20000202210453.007b21c0@mail.iname.com> Message-ID: <00c601bf6dea$469afb00$0101a8c0@jay> You wrote.... > Aloha? > Whats happening with this? > > At 07:07 PM 02/02/00 -0600, you wrote: > >Test... > > > >Jay West Aloha? Are you thinking the time is off on the server? Nope... not at all. The server is located in St. Louis, Missouri, where CST/CDT is GMT-6:00. Or did I misunderstand what you're referring to? Jay West From ks at coastalnet.com Wed Feb 2 20:13:14 2000 From: ks at coastalnet.com (KS) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: Very Good! Message-ID: <3898E43A.792E@coastalnet.com> Looks like the new server is up... have really missed all that daily info! Kirk Scott ks@coastalnet.com From west at tseinc.com Wed Feb 2 20:08:46 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... References: <006101bf6de2$fe76d3a0$0101a8c0@jay> <0002022038570C.17380@vault.neurotica.com> <3898E399.A612AEF2@idirect.com> Message-ID: <00dc01bf6deb$9b69af40$0101a8c0@jay> Several people wrote.... > I wonder if you would prefer if the "Respond To" portion should be: > > "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" > > as it used to???? (Well it used to be: "classiccmp@u.washington.edu") > I know that sometimes caused a bit of a problem for posts that were > supposed to be off list, but I think that is the more intended aspect????? I've had a fair amount of experience using (and setting up and running) quite a few mailing lists. The way they were always set up was the user sent to the list, and the list sent the mail back to all the subscribers with the reply address being the user who sent the post originally. In this manner if you hit the REPLY button to a post, your message goes to the person who sent the post, not the list. If you hit the REPLY ALL button, then your response went to the list AND the original poster. This is how 99.9% of all the lists I've ever seen are configured. As a result, I've always wondered why on classiccmp the reply address was the list. Using that method the benefit is that everyone can see what's going on. The drawback is it's very very easy to send posts intended to be private to the list. I'm not saying any of this to say how it should be set up. That's not my call. I'm just saying what I've typically seen on other lists. If Derek wants it changed to the old method, he can do it or he can call me to do it. I personally prefer the new way, but my vote doesn't count! :) Jay West From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Feb 2 20:29:07 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: test In-Reply-To: ; from Tony Duell on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 01:52:34AM +0000 References: <006101bf6de2$fe76d3a0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <20000202192907.A24220@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 01:52:34AM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Test... > > Seems to be working :-)... Wow neat, I've been off this list for ages, hadn't taken the time to find out how to resubscribe. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 2 20:36:53 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: List starting up.... In-Reply-To: <008a01bf6de8$a9179b00$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Feb 02, 2000 07:47:40 PM Message-ID: <200002030236.SAA23522@shell1.aracnet.com> Can we get it fixed so that replies go to the list instead of the author of the message? Great to see it's back! Zane > To send out list traffic, email classiccmp@classiccmp.org From liste at artware.qc.ca Wed Feb 2 20:45:28 2000 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <00dc01bf6deb$9b69af40$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: On 03-Feb-00 Jay West wrote: > Several people wrote.... >> I wonder if you would prefer if the "Respond To" portion should be: >> >> "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" >> >> as it used to???? (Well it used to be: "classiccmp@u.washington.edu") >> I know that sometimes caused a bit of a problem for posts that were >> supposed to be off list, but I think that is the more intended >> aspect????? The best text on the subject i've seen is ``Reply-To'' Munging Considered Harmful by Chip Rosenthal. http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html -Philip From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 2 20:55:04 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <00c601bf6dea$469afb00$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Feb 02, 2000 07:59:14 PM Message-ID: <200002030255.SAA23978@shell1.aracnet.com> > You wrote.... > > Aloha? > > Whats happening with this? > > > > At 07:07 PM 02/02/00 -0600, you wrote: > > >Test... > > > > > >Jay West > > Aloha? Are you thinking the time is off on the server? Nope... not at all. > The server is located in St. Louis, Missouri, where CST/CDT is GMT-6:00. > > Or did I misunderstand what you're referring to? > > Jay West > Might mean 'hello', of course I'm sitting in Aloha, as I type this :^) Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 2 21:00:02 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) Message-ID: <200002030300.TAA24080@shell1.aracnet.com> > I'm not saying any of this to say how it should be set up. That's not my > call. I'm just saying what I've typically seen on other lists. If Derek > wants it changed to the old method, he can do it or he can call me to do it. > > I personally prefer the new way, but my vote doesn't count! :) > > Jay West I personally vote for the old way! I'm on quite a few different ML's and only the DECnet/Linux one does it this way. It's more of a pain to have to get the correct TO: with it set this way that the old way! Especially if I'm using 'elm', like right now, since I either have to forward it to the ML, or remember to chage the TO: after I'm done typing the message. Zane From west at tseinc.com Wed Feb 2 20:52:17 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING References: Message-ID: <014201bf6df1$afe91fe0$0101a8c0@jay> Several people wrote.... >I wonder if you would prefer if the "Respond To" portion should be: > >"classiccmp@classiccmp.org" > >as it used to???? (Well it used to be: "classiccmp@u.washington.edu") >I know that sometimes caused a bit of a problem for posts that were >supposed to be off list, but I think that is the more intended >aspect????? To which Philip replied... > The best text on the subject i've seen is ``Reply-To'' Munging Considered > Harmful by Chip Rosenthal. > > http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html Anyone who wants the reply address mechanism changed should of course contact Derek. However, I strongly suggest that before anyone finalizes their mindset on this to please read the text page at the url that Philip provided above first. I've rarely seen a better argument made. There - that's my 2 cents worth I've always wondered why the list was set up the way it was. It could be the mail software that Derek had available to use, which is not the same as the mailing list software he's got now. Or perhaps there was a concious decision to do it that way on his part or the part of the list community as a whole. As a relative newbie to the list, I have no idea. Just some random thoughts... Jay West From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Feb 2 21:18:25 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: Getting out of collecting, mostly Message-ID: <200002030318.UAA01753@calico.litterbox.com> After some soul searching, I've finally realised I really don't want to collect anymore. No, it has nothing to do with anyone or anything that has happened on this list, and because I'm keeping my Vax (to hopefully do useful work for me) I'll still be here on this list. I've just realised that *having* these machines doesn't do alot for me, and I don't seem to bother messing with them very often. So what this means is I'm beginning the process of liquidating my collection. Ideally I'd like to sell to people in the Colorado Springs/Denver metro area so shipping isn't as much of a pain, but we'll see how it goes. The way I'm going to work this is: If you are interested in a piece, e-mail me privately. I'll 1. Make sure the piece works. When my shelves got knocked over a lot of hardware got dumped on the floor. 2. Negotiate a price with you. 3. Negotiate delivery methods with you. I'm not looking to turn a profit on most of this stuff - I just want to get rid of it and see that it goes to a good home. What I have: Apple2 GS #1. 8mb of Ram, ramfast SCSI, 120 meg (I think) SCSI disk (no enclosure for the disk) 1 3.5 inch apple floppy drive, 1 5.25 inch apple floppy drive. 1 monitor. Apple2GS #2 4mb of RAM, parallel card, 2 3.5 inch apple floppy drive, 2 5.25 inch apple floppy drives. Monitor may work, but both the system and the monitor fell off the shelf they were on when a cat managed to push the shelves over. Apple2E Enhanced apple2E ROMS, 64 K of RAM. Ramfast SCSI, 40 meg SCSI hard disk (no enclosure for disk) 2 5.25 inch apple floppy drives. 1 monitor. 1 kensington system saver. Tiger Learning Computer - Not really a classic except that inside what looks like a laptop (but isn't - it has no integral screen) is an apple2C with cartrige drives. Hooks to your TV. This one amuses me a lot, so unlike the rest it will require significant cash to separate it from me. Commodore 64 nasty looking, but works fine. New keyboard. Includes 1541 floppy drive and new monitor cable. Squeeky clean inside, since I used its motherboard to verify that yes, washing them in the dishwasher IS ok. Kaypro 4/84 Good condition, both drives work. Some software. Misc Monitors one commodore monitor - barely works. 1 cga/ega (not sure which) might work, don't have the hardware to test it. Misc 486 PC hardware - again, not quite classic, although I think the original 486 might be by now. Misc Apple2GS software - many titles old and new. New includes Orca C. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From generic3 at home.com Wed Feb 2 21:21:11 2000 From: generic3 at home.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: WPL file (PFS WinWorks Spreadsheets) Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000202221907.0097cdc0@popmail.voicenet.com> I am trying to find a converter or reader for .WPL file (PFS WinWorks Spreadsheets} Any thoughts ????????? ------------------------------------------------------ On-Line Computer & Video Game Garage Sale http://www.voicenet.com/~generic gene@ehrich.com generic3@home.com Gene Ehrich From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 2 21:56:42 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: List starting up.... References: <200002030236.SAA23522@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3898FC7A.F83A7DC6@rain.org> Whew, the withdrawal was almost too much :). Thanks to Jay and Derek for getting the list up and running again!!! Also, I would second the motion to change the reply function back to reply to the list instead of the individual sending the message. And yes, I did read Chip Rosenthal's comments. Marvin From djenner at halcyon.com Wed Feb 2 21:54:46 2000 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) References: <200002030300.TAA24080@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3898FC06.BEDD05E2@halcyon.com> I vote for the new way. It's now trivial to reply either to the sender alone, the sender and the list, or the list alone. With a decent mailer each of these options is now one click. Vastly superior. Dave healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > > I'm not saying any of this to say how it should be set up. That's not my > > call. I'm just saying what I've typically seen on other lists. If Derek > > wants it changed to the old method, he can do it or he can call me to do it. > > > > I personally prefer the new way, but my vote doesn't count! :) > > > > Jay West > > I personally vote for the old way! I'm on quite a few different ML's and > only the DECnet/Linux one does it this way. It's more of a pain to have to > get the correct TO: with it set this way that the old way! Especially if > I'm using 'elm', like right now, since I either have to forward it to the > ML, or remember to chage the TO: after I'm done typing the message. > > Zane From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Feb 2 21:57:51 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: Welcome Back! and Pro 350's Message-ID: Very Big Welcome Back to the List... I was just starting to not be able to control my withdrawal symptoms. Many Many thanks to Jay and Derek for keeping this alive! While the List was sleeping, I was given two DEC Pro 350's, with a huge box of software and docs. I have one up and running now, using a VR241 RGB color display. (I have yet to try the other unit.) I have about 20 grey DEC slipcover-type software packages, with 14 or so being the communications set, but I also have the Install and Maintenance, both Disk systems, Basic, Prose, and a third-party database application builder called RDM by Interactive Technology Inc. (2 copies of this). All of the slipcases contain diskettes, and most are still unopened internally. Also in the load was the Technical manual and the engineering printsets. Additionally there is a Floating Point adapter in it's box... the maintenance program informs me that the unit I have running contains one already, and 768 KW of RAM to go with the 5-meg Hard Drive. I have no idea what this model must have cost in 1982 when it was new, with 8-of-256 colors and as slow as it is... but it sure is fascinating to see how far we've come. Cheers John From whdawson at mlynk.com Wed Feb 2 22:15:06 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bf6dfd$4069eb20$53e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Philip (and the list) I agree it should now be left as it is. Chip has a compelling and logical argument, with which I concur. I, for one, don't like having to rummage thru a message header in order to find an email address in order to reply to a list member, instead of the entire list membership. I don't mind having to send messages in plain text, to accommodate those members of this list who are "mailer disadvantaged". I believe, however, that the majority of us have "Reply" and "Reply to All" functions inherent in our mailer software. The new way things are set up appears to be a reasonable compromise to me. FWIW, Bill whdawson@mlynk.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of liste@artware.qc.ca Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 9:45 PM To: Jay West Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: regarding the reply address on the list.... On 03-Feb-00 Jay West wrote: > Several people wrote.... >> I wonder if you would prefer if the "Respond To" portion should be: >> >> "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" >> >> as it used to???? (Well it used to be: "classiccmp@u.washington.edu") >> I know that sometimes caused a bit of a problem for posts that were >> supposed to be off list, but I think that is the more intended >> aspect????? The best text on the subject i've seen is ``Reply-To'' Munging Considered Harmful by Chip Rosenthal. http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html -Philip From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Feb 2 22:38:37 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... References: <006101bf6de2$fe76d3a0$0101a8c0@jay> <0002022038570C.17380@vault.neurotica.com> <3898E399.A612AEF2@idirect.com> <00dc01bf6deb$9b69af40$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3899064D.6A1FE560@idirect.com> >Jay West wrote: > I've had a fair amount of experience using (and setting up and running) > quite a few mailing lists. The way they were always set up was the user sent > to the list, and the list sent the mail back to all the subscribers with the > reply address being the user who sent the post originally. In this manner if > you hit the REPLY button to a post, your message goes to the person who sent > the post, not the list. If you hit the REPLY ALL button, then your response > went to the list AND the original poster. This is how 99.9% of all the lists > I've ever seen are configured. > > As a result, I've always wondered why on classiccmp the reply address was > the list. Using that method the benefit is that everyone can see what's > going on. The drawback is it's very very easy to send posts intended to be > private to the list. Jerome Fine replies: Thanks to Jay and Derek from this list member as well. What ever you two or the others decide is fine with me. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 22:44:46 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) Message-ID: <20000203044446.19549.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- "David C. Jenner" wrote: > I vote for the new way. It's now trivial to > reply either to the sender alone, the sender > and the list, or the list alone. > > With a decent mailer each of these options is > now one click. I don't mind the new way (I use a web-based mail interface due to all the attachments I get from another list and can click "Reply" or "Reply All"), but how are the posters of articles going to feel about receiving a response twice to their postings, once direct and once via the list? If people don't mind, I don't mind either. It was always extra work to reply to an individual with the old scheme. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 22:44:46 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) Message-ID: <20000203044446.19549.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- "David C. Jenner" wrote: > I vote for the new way. It's now trivial to > reply either to the sender alone, the sender > and the list, or the list alone. > > With a decent mailer each of these options is > now one click. I don't mind the new way (I use a web-based mail interface due to all the attachments I get from another list and can click "Reply" or "Reply All"), but how are the posters of articles going to feel about receiving a response twice to their postings, once direct and once via the list? If people don't mind, I don't mind either. It was always extra work to reply to an individual with the old scheme. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Feb 2 23:37:21 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: Yeah Baby! VAX 4000/300 questions Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000202213122.024d0cb0@mcmanis.com> Boy, is it glad to have this resource back! I received a VAX 4000/300 and have been integrating it into my VAX herd but it has the annoying tendency to _always_ ask for my language preference on power on. I've done the 'set language' and I've tried the dial selector in all three positions but no joy. The other thing this VAX came with was a "remote service console" or some such. It looks like a powered A/B switch except that you switch it with the VAX key, it has two sets of three push buttons and four DB25 connectors on the back. Can anyone tell me how to use this thing? --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 3 00:09:56 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: Yeah Baby! VAX 4000/300 questions In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000202213122.024d0cb0@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Feb 02, 2000 09:37:21 PM Message-ID: <200002030609.WAA26834@shell1.aracnet.com> > Boy, is it glad to have this resource back! Aren't we all! :^) > I received a VAX 4000/300 and have been integrating it into my VAX herd but > it has the annoying tendency to _always_ ask for my language preference on > power on. I've done the 'set language' and I've tried the dial selector in > all three positions but no joy. Dead battery? I've noticed that the MicroVAX 3 that I have in a Sigma Rack mount tends to do the same thing unless I've had it on for a while and then take it down and back up. ISTR, reading somewhere the battery is necessary to keep that and other parameters saved. Of course the MV3 is a rather older class system compared to your VAX 4000/300. Zane From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 01:56:02 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: <014201bf6df1$afe91fe0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Jay West wrote: > I've always wondered why the list was set up the way it was. It could be the > mail software that Derek had available to use, which is not the same as the > mailing list software he's got now. Or perhaps there was a concious decision > to do it that way on his part or the part of the list community as a whole. > As a relative newbie to the list, I have no idea. Just some random > thoughts... Because: a) it makes it more of a BBS, with all messages being contributed to the public good by default instead of private threads being spawned off b) who the hell wants to have to read the same message TWICE? (once from the list and once from the replier) c) it's an incredible pain in the ass having to edit the reply-to addresses for every damn message you reply to Besides, despite what the aforementioned article says, the previous list reply-to mechanism was working, and working well. The article is just a masturbatory entreaty for one persons personal preferences, and does not really take into account convenience for the overall list. Sure, once in a while people would goof and send a private reply to the list, but see a, b and c above. Change it back. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Feb 3 00:49:22 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: References: <00dc01bf6deb$9b69af40$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: >The best text on the subject i've seen is ``Reply-To'' Munging Considered >Harmful by Chip Rosenthal. > > http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html When I hit "reply to all" the list goes in the cc field and I have to cut and paste it into the send field instead of sending a bunch of innocent people multiple replies. 95% of the time I want to reply to the list. From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 02:03:14 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <000001bf6dfd$4069eb20$53e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Bill Dawson wrote: > I, for one, don't like having to rummage thru a message header in order to > find an email address in order to reply to a list member, instead of the > entire list membership. I don't understand where this is coming from. The previous method enabled one to: a) reply to the list or b) reply to the sender only And again, why would one want to reply to both the sender AND the list? Assuming the sender is a member of the list (99% of the time they are) they are going to get the message anyway. I hate it when I get two replies to the same message because someone was too lazy to edit the headers of a poorly configured list. The benefits of a list like this is that it is a public forum; it's like a bunch of geeks in a big circle jabbering to each other. That's what gives this list its unique character and usefulness. Change it back. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 02:09:41 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: Major gripe Message-ID: Ok, major gripe. With the old software, I could stay subscribed to the list to send messages, but could SET POSTPONE CLASSICCMP to effectively turn the messages off. There doesn't seem to be a way to do this with majordomo. I'll stay subscribed for now (so I can get some replies on this) but if I have to unsubscribe then I hope there is an easy mechanism for me to continue to post messages to the list without having to be subscribed. If not, I don't think I'll be passing on any messages from people coming to me with old hardware wanting to find new homes for it. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From mbg at world.std.com Thu Feb 3 01:37:02 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) Message-ID: <200002030737.CAA05816@world.std.com> I vote for the new way as well... it is now trivial for me to respond to either the author of a message or the list itself. Before, I had to do a cut and paste of the author's name in order to send mail to them... Yes, there will be occasions in which people send to an author when they meant the list, but heck, we've already had that in reverse... and for some messages it is most definitely more embarrassing to have them go to the list... So please keep it the new way... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From kevinm at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Thu Feb 3 01:39:48 2000 From: kevinm at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: PDP8/S then GRI-909 and the perhaps a british machine called the Molecular? Message-ID: <002b01bf6e19$d9291810$8700a8c0@xpuppy> Many years ago I worked on a minicomputer range manufactured in the UK. The series was the Molecular 18 sold by BCL Ltd. Having an interest in this machine, and in PDP8 machines, I have been looking for links between the two. (The two machines have quite a few similarities) In an interview, Saul Dinman (who designed the PDP8/S) talks about a later design called the GRI-909. Saul had left DEC at this stage I believe. The company that manufactured the early Molecular 18 machines in the UK was Allied Business Computers, who also produced a machine called the GRI-99. This all may be coincidence and fanciful, but does any one have any information of the GRI range of machines? (For more info on the Molecular 18, see www.classiccomputing.co.uk) Kevin Murrell UK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000203/c03659da/attachment-0001.html From mbg at world.std.com Thu Feb 3 01:40:47 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING Message-ID: <200002030740.CAA07179@world.std.com> >a) it makes it more of a BBS, with all messages being contributed to the > public good by default instead of private threads being spawned off Which is still accomplished when someone replies to all >b) who the hell wants to have to read the same message TWICE? (once from > the list and once from the replier) Hey, these are computers! Certainly there has to be some way of telling it to send to the list rather than the list *and* the author (who is on the list). >c) it's an incredible pain in the ass having to edit the reply-to > addresses for every damn message you reply to And it is more of a pain having to find the author name and then do cut and paste to send to them specifically... some of us don't have mail readers which even allow us to change the To: or CC: field (or anything other than the message) once we're typing the message... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 3 02:07:18 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... References: <00dc01bf6deb$9b69af40$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <38993736.7704CEDD@rain.org> And while we are on the topic of the list server, is it possible to have a common date stamp put on all messages that are sent out from the listserver? One of the major pains I have is when messages come in from different time zones, and this ^%$^&$ software (Netscape Mail) sorts the damn stuff by date without the option of not sorting. Among other reasons, a common date stamp makes it FAR easier to keep track of who might be responding to something first. Sorry Mike for sending the message to you personally earlier; I ***REALLY DISLIKE*** the way the Reply is set up now. With almost everything I send going out to the list, this new method is a major pain as well as a waste of time having to deal with the *&%^$ headers on every message sent to the list. Mike Ford wrote: > > >The best text on the subject i've seen is ``Reply-To'' Munging Considered > >Harmful by Chip Rosenthal. > > > > http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html > > When I hit "reply to all" the list goes in the cc field and I have to cut > and paste it into the send field instead of sending a bunch of innocent > people multiple replies. 95% of the time I want to reply to the list. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 3 02:38:59 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: References: <014201bf6df1$afe91fe0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: Sellam wrote: >Because: > >a) it makes it more of a BBS, with all messages being contributed to the > public good by default instead of private threads being spawned off >b) who the hell wants to have to read the same message TWICE? (once from > the list and once from the replier) >c) it's an incredible pain in the ass having to edit the reply-to > addresses for every damn message you reply to Yes to everything! I just got home, and found that with the machine I use at home that this is even more of a royal pain! It looks like Eudora Pro doesn't have a group reply. I thought this was a pain in the neck with 'elm', and yes, multiple people have pointed out "Group Reply", but I don't consider sending the person who's message I'm replying to, two copies acceptable behavior! I know *I* don't want two copies everytime someone replies to something I wrote. Here is something else to consider, there have got to be list members that have to pay *PER MINUTE* connection fees (remember those? *I* sure do). You do a group reply to those folks, you're costing them money! Then there is the disk space and bandwidth wasted by two messages. Oh, and yes, these are a couple of the reasons that I get a more than a little irritated with non-ASCII email and binary attachments! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From JRichardson at softwright.co.uk Thu Feb 3 02:44:30 2000 From: JRichardson at softwright.co.uk (Julian Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:14 2005 Subject: FW: AS/400 questions... Message-ID: OK, welcome back everyone.... I'm not sure if this email made it to the old list before it was stopped, so I'm resending (in other words, sorry if you've seen it twice!!) >Technically this shouldn't quite make the list (the machine's of 1991 vintage >apparently), but my work's throwing out an old AS/400 - I know nothing at all >about these machines but if it's getting slung then I may as well grab it and >take a look at the thing... > >Model number is 9404, big tower-style case, 8" floppy and (I believe) 150MB >QIC tape drive. > >It's got a console/terminal of some sort which is apparently dead (I haven't >looked at the cabling - can I wire up just about anything as a console or do >they use some strange protocol / signal levels?). Nobody knows how much disk >or memory it has in it and it hasn't been powered up in years. There's a box >of assorted junk with it, cables, keyboard etc. and someone said there's a >load of tapes for it too... > >So, initial questions: > >Does anyone have any handy web links to AS/400 stuff so I can get some more >information on this thing? (and AS/400s in general) > And does anyone know how hard OS install media is to get hold of from >IBM? It may be that someone here has the tapes (or whatever) but I'm not sure >(I'll try to hunt them out later). I don't know if I can be bothered >transporting it home when I don't even know if it works and possibly don't >have installation media if the system needs rebuilding!! > >cheers > >Jules > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 3 02:44:48 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <38993736.7704CEDD@rain.org> References: <00dc01bf6deb$9b69af40$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: >And while we are on the topic of the list server, is it possible to have a >common date stamp put on all messages that are sent out from the listserver? >One of the major pains I have is when messages come in from different time >zones, and this ^%$^&$ software (Netscape Mail) sorts the damn stuff by date >without the option of not sorting. Among other reasons, a common date stamp >makes it FAR easier to keep track of who might be responding to something >first. Oh, now that would be SERIOUSLY COOL! I'm using Eudora and sort stuff by date also. Drives me crazy when people have the clock on their computer *seriously* off. Although, thankfully doesn't sound like I've as much trouble as Netscape Mail causes. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spc at armigeron.com Thu Feb 3 03:02:08 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: from "liste@artware.qc.ca" at Feb 02, 2000 09:45:28 PM Message-ID: <200002030902.EAA29776@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great liste@artware.qc.ca once stated (and will get two copies of this): > > > On 03-Feb-00 Jay West wrote: > > Several people wrote.... > >> I wonder if you would prefer if the "Respond To" portion should be: > >> > >> "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" > >> > >> as it used to???? (Well it used to be: "classiccmp@u.washington.edu") > >> I know that sometimes caused a bit of a problem for posts that were > >> supposed to be off list, but I think that is the more intended > >> aspect????? > > The best text on the subject i've seen is ``Reply-To'' Munging Considered > Harmful by Chip Rosenthal. > > http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html And the rebuttle: http://www.metasystema.org/reply-to-useful.mhtml I personally like Reply-To: set to the mailing list. All the lists I'm on are set up that way and there have been no problems that I could see (yes, you see the occasional private message sent but it's not that big a problem). -spc (I get enough mail as it is ... I don't need duplicates 8-) From flo at rdel.co.uk Thu Feb 3 03:07:08 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list... Message-ID: <3899453C.1665E2F8@rdel.co.uk> Rats...just been caught by the new reply mechanism. Grrr "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > >And while we are on the topic of the list server, is it possible to have a > >common date stamp put on all messages that are sent out from the listserver? > >One of the major pains I have is when messages come in from different time > >zones, and this ^%$^&$ software (Netscape Mail) sorts the damn stuff by date > >without the option of not sorting. Among other reasons, a common date stamp > >makes it FAR easier to keep track of who might be responding to something > >first. > > Oh, now that would be SERIOUSLY COOL! I'm using Eudora and sort stuff by > date also. Drives me crazy when people have the clock on their computer > *seriously* off. > > Although, thankfully doesn't sound like I've as much trouble as Netscape > Mail causes. I'd be surprised if Eudora used a different method of determining the date and time for sorting purposes than Netscape does. Your message, for example, was apparently sent at 00:44:48 -0800, and displays on my screen as 08:44, because I'm on GMT (and using Netscape Messenger). So, we're both reliant on senders having their clocks and timezones set correctly. I'd object to some central server forging the best indication you've got of how far along a conversation had got at the time I replied. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Feb 3 03:33:01 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: DASTAR COM "Re: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING" (Feb 2, 23:56) References: Message-ID: <10002030933.ZM5236@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> First of all, "Thanks!" to Jay for getting the list going again. The withdrawal symptoms are beginning to wear off now :-) On Feb 2, 23:56, DASTAR COM wrote: > On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Jay West wrote: > > > I've always wondered why the list was set up the way it was. > Because: > > b) who the hell wants to have to read the same message TWICE? (once from > the list and once from the replier) Sellam has a point here; it is considered bad netiquette to do that, and that's why newsreaders, for example, won't get the GNSA if they allow a followup posting to also be emailed to the author automatically. However, this isn't usenet, and it's easy in most mailers to remove the extra address. I hope people do so, and I hope they'll also forgive me when I forget :-) > c) it's an incredible pain in the ass having to edit the reply-to > addresses for every damn message you reply to Virtually all mailers have a "reply all" function. I can think of just one exception, and that's a mailer intended as a local delivery agent, not a mail user agent. > Besides, despite what the aforementioned article says, the previous list > reply-to mechanism was working, and working well. The article is just a > masturbatory entreaty for one persons personal preferences, and does not > really take into account convenience for the overall list. No, it isn't. There are good reasons for the "Reply-to:" header to override the "From:" address, where the "From:" address is not valid or correct for incoming mail. That's more common than many people think. If you use "Reply-to:" for list redirection, that breaks, and irrevocably removes the correct address for replies to the author. Although old habits die hard, and it will take a little getting used to, I prefer the new method. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 3 03:56:55 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list... In-Reply-To: <3899453C.1665E2F8@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: >I'd be surprised if Eudora used a different method of determining the >date and time for sorting purposes than Netscape does. Your message, >for example, was apparently sent at 00:44:48 -0800, and displays on my >screen as 08:44, because I'm on GMT (and using Netscape Messenger). So, >we're both reliant on senders having their clocks and timezones set >correctly. > >I'd object to some central server forging the best indication you've got >of how far along a conversation had got at the time I replied. Hmmm, you raise a good point, the way it's set right now is a good indicator of how crazy other people are, and if we're likely to see a reply from them that day. For example, you're correct when you point out that I sent the last at 00:44:48 -0800, and this one is even worse :^) since it's now 1:54am here. It might be possible to stuff the original at the beginning of the message body. Still I guess it is best to leave the timestamps alone. OTOH, this reply-to bit is driving me crazy! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Feb 3 06:25:58 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: HP 98XX IFs & S100 Message-ID: Nice to have the list back. I have to use the reply to all and edit the individual out of the send to box but I don't mind. I know the list doesn't like ePay so I hope I don't start a flame war. I'm dumping S100 cards and HP 98XX interfaces there now. Not all the time do things bring high prices. I just sold a HP 9820 interface for under $10. Most of the interfaces and cards are running between $10 and $15 including an original Cromemco HD. This is much easier for me than having to haggle over prices. If you are interested my sellers name is 'innfosale'. Use ebay's seller search to find my items. Most are in vintage computer hardware with some in mainframes. There will be more in the future. I have been suffering withdrawals over not having the list also. Many thanks for the list and ALL who comment. Paxton Portland, OR, USA PS It is a lot of fun to be on late at night and see comments come in from around the world. From west at tseinc.com Thu Feb 3 06:23:31 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: reply address setting explanation Message-ID: <004801bf6e41$7cf93660$0101a8c0@jay> And - just so folks know... I didn't intentionally change the way the reply-to address works, even though I prefer the new method. When I set up the list I just installed a separate copy of majordomo "straight out of the box". We host all our customer lists with majordomo, primarily because majordomo is virtually the de-facto standard for internet mailing lists world-wide. Yes, there are other mailing list server packages, but none seem to have the installed base of majordomo. The default installation of majordomo does what - you guessed it - reply-to is NOT munged. Gee - I wonder why the author of majordomo did that. Hum... I installed the standard default configuration, did some testing, and started it back up. I'm so used to mailing lists having the reply-to set to the original poster it really didn't dawn on me that classiccmp was set differently although I knew that full well. The change was not intentional. After the first post or two I saw about this topic I was going to change it to work like the old list because obviously that's how it WAS set up. Then I saw the lively discussion and thought perhaps its better to have everyone get their opinions in and let any changes be determined without me. As you might infer from previous posts, I don't want to be making any changes on my own.... Regards, Jay West From west at tseinc.com Thu Feb 3 06:33:30 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: HOT TIP - System Available? Message-ID: <005e01bf6e42$e2153200$0101a8c0@jay> I was advised by a non-classiccmp'er yesterday that a PDP-11 type system in some kind of rack is being decomissioned and is available. Contact Wayne Nelson of SDPTV in Vermillion, South Dakota - quickly That's all the contact info I currently have. Regards, Jay West From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 3 07:32:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <38993736.7704CEDD@rain.org> Message-ID: Well from pine via telnet the current way means marvin just got two copies and I don't plan to edit the message as it too damm slow. The mailer at home seems to be an oddbal and has no reply to all and the from: address it will use is the first or last(have to look) in the header. In the end the most visible address is the one I'm likely to reply to by error. Oh, and I really hate getting things twice, NetBSD-Port-VAX is dont this way and I get anything I reply to and their replys at least twice. Another pet peeve, posts/replies in html, I don't read them and dump them sumarily as A) they are often spam, B)the are a pain to handle via said slow telnet and pine. Oh, I have no plans for IE or any other browser based mail and really don't want to use MS OS if I can avoid it. So that rather limits what some consider a decent mailer. Allison From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Feb 3 07:39:36 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200002030300.TAA24080@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000203082231.00b462c0@206.231.8.2> At 07:00 PM 2/2/00 -0800, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: >> I'm not saying any of this to say how it should be set up. That's not my >> call. I'm just saying what I've typically seen on other lists. If Derek >> wants it changed to the old method, he can do it or he can call me to do it. >> >> I personally prefer the new way, but my vote doesn't count! :) >> >> Jay West > >I personally vote for the old way! I'm on quite a few different ML's and >only the DECnet/Linux one does it this way. It's more of a pain to have to >get the correct TO: with it set this way that the old way! Especially if >I'm using 'elm', like right now, since I either have to forward it to the >ML, or remember to chage the TO: after I'm done typing the message. Zane and group, The URL posted by Philip (liste@artware.qc.ca) just previous to this msg ( FYI: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html and titled ' ''Reply-To'' Munging Considered Harmful' ) is clear on making it easy for you since you use Elm 2.5. Just hit "r" or "g" depending upon whether you intend the msg to be private or to the group. Many of us have been bit by sending an intended private reply to the whole list for example a monitary offer negotiating for something offered for sale, a flame stating 'Yer mamma wears army boots!', etc. This present classiccmp reply setting is Good IMHO. That munging article is a very good discussion on the subject even though the author has a rather strong opinion against the automatic "Reply all" list setting. I nevertheless follows my feeling on the matter. I use Eudora and had just hit the "Reply All" button to publicly reply to this msg as I do with several other lists I'm on. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 3 08:56:50 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <200002030902.EAA29776@armigeron.com>; from spc@armigeron.com on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:02:08AM -0500 References: <200002030902.EAA29776@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <20000203095650.B4057@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:02:08AM -0500, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner (spc@armigeron.com) wrote: > > I personally like Reply-To: set to the mailing list. All the lists I'm on > are set up that way and there have been no problems that I could see (yes, > you see the occasional private message sent but it's not that big a > problem). No problems? Here's one! A mailing list subscriber wants to receive mail at an address different from that in his From: header. (Let's say he's using Pine without ALLOW_CHANGING_FROM, or he's using some older MUA that doesn't even have the concept of changing the From: header). So, he sets the Reply-To: to the address at which he actually accepts mail; the From: isn't meaningful anymore. Then it goes to the list, which replaces that Reply-To: with one pointing at the list. Explain how someone wishing to reply to him can retrieve the correct address at this point. (Or, phrased differently, why the mailing list should change anything at *all* in the message being sent.) It's awfully curious that a list full o' geeks can't figure out how to reply to a message in their mail client. -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 3 08:59:53 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000203082231.00b462c0@206.231.8.2>; from cfandt@netsync.net on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 08:39:36AM -0500 References: <200002030300.TAA24080@shell1.aracnet.com> <4.1.20000203082231.00b462c0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <20000203095953.C4057@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 08:39:36AM -0500, Christian Fandt (cfandt@netsync.net) wrote: > [someone else wrote:] > >I personally vote for the old way! I'm on quite a few different ML's and > >only the DECnet/Linux one does it this way. It's more of a pain to have to > >get the correct TO: with it set this way that the old way! The "correct" headers are the ones which the sender of the message put on his message. > The URL posted by Philip (liste@artware.qc.ca) just previous to this msg ( > FYI: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html and titled ' > ''Reply-To'' Munging Considered Harmful' ) is clear on making it easy for > you since you use Elm 2.5. Just hit "r" or "g" depending upon whether you > intend the msg to be private or to the group. For those that have noticed a bit of a flaw in their mail program regarding this issue, I'll take a moment to point out that the MUA That Sucks Less, 'mutt', offers not only reply and group-reply but also list-reply. :-) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 3 09:02:28 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: ; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 12:38:59AM -0800 References: <014201bf6df1$afe91fe0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <20000203100228.D4057@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 12:38:59AM -0800, Zane H. Healy (healyzh@aracnet.com) wrote: > > Yes to everything! I just got home, and found that with the machine I use > at home that this is even more of a royal pain! It looks like Eudora Pro > doesn't have a group reply. I thought this was a pain in the neck with > 'elm', and yes, multiple people have pointed out "Group Reply", but I don't > consider sending the person who's message I'm replying to, two copies > acceptable behavior! I know *I* don't want two copies everytime someone > replies to something I wrote. Surely, being a collector of old computers, you're adept enough with them to delete an address before you send a message? (I fail to see what's difficult about this.) > Here is something else to consider, there have got to be list members that > have to pay *PER MINUTE* connection fees (remember those? *I* sure do). > You do a group reply to those folks, you're costing them money! So don't send two messages. This is a straw man, and you know it. I'm beginning to think that someone's replaced the subscription list of classiccmp with a bunch of lusers. Don't you people know how to use a mail client yet? -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Feb 3 09:14:07 2000 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... Message-ID: <8025687A.0053B54C.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> >> >> The best text on the subject i've seen is ``Reply-To'' Munging Considered >> Harmful by Chip Rosenthal. >> >> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html > > And the rebuttle: http://www.metasystema.org/reply-to-useful.mhtml > > I personally like Reply-To: set to the mailing list. All the lists I'm on > are set up that way and there have been no problems that I could see (yes, > you see the occasional private message sent but it's not that big a > problem). Hello again everyone! Good to be back! I have read both the above web articles. I'd like to cast my vote in favour of REPLY-TO: == THE LIST Why? 1. I don't want to receive two messages when someone replies to me and the list 2. With the old system, if someone forgot to change the header, there was a spurious message, which I deleted. Some people might object to the waste of bandwidth, but it merely gave me one extra message to delete. With the new system, if someone forgets to change the header, the information doesn't reach the list. This causes a bigger waste of bandwidth, because you get more people answering the same question, not having seen each other's replies. And it stifles discussion, because replies-to-replies often never get generated (and these are sometimes the most useful). So the new method gives less info to the list for more use of bandwidth. IMHO, not good. I am on several lists, of which about half work the old way (reply to the list by default). This is very convenient on all of them. Of the others, on the one where I have asked questions I have received substantially the same reply privately from several people, but the discussion hasn't borne fruit on the list. Just my two penn'orth... Philip. PS I almost forgot to edit the addressees of this one... ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Feb 3 09:59:12 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3898FC06.BEDD05E2@halcyon.com> Message-ID: My mailer doesn't "click"... On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, David C. Jenner wrote: > I vote for the new way. It's now trivial to > reply either to the sender alone, the sender > and the list, or the list alone. > > With a decent mailer each of these options is > now one click. > > Vastly superior. > > Dave > > healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > > > > I'm not saying any of this to say how it should be set up. That's not my > > > call. I'm just saying what I've typically seen on other lists. If Derek > > > wants it changed to the old method, he can do it or he can call me to do it. > > > > > > I personally prefer the new way, but my vote doesn't count! :) > > > > > > Jay West > > > > I personally vote for the old way! I'm on quite a few different ML's and > > only the DECnet/Linux one does it this way. It's more of a pain to have to > > get the correct TO: with it set this way that the old way! Especially if > > I'm using 'elm', like right now, since I either have to forward it to the > > ML, or remember to chage the TO: after I'm done typing the message. > > > > Zane > From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Feb 3 10:10:14 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap Message-ID: Hmmmm... seems to me, running Pine as I do, that the "reply to" issue, in my particular case, breaks down to laziness on my part: Two keystrokes to set up a reply vs. replacing the Original Sender's name with the list name. And I'm sure I could automate it but... why? If I had my druthers, I'd vote for the "old" way, however it's almost a non-issue with me, and it even provides for a little 'breathing room' right before I blast off a piquant reply that, in the fulness of time, may or may not have been a little rash. NOW, FURTHERMORE: In all this discussion of the New Classiccmp regime... I would like to weigh in with Allison on the issue of HTML and Binary attachments propagated to this List. I belong to 6 other lists besides this one, and four have some kind of HTML filtering and binaries-rejectors. I dislike, and delete unread, HTML stuff, because this is an ASCII list and I engage it with an ASCII mailreader. Yes, I have PPP accounts and Netscrape and all the rest, but my central (and voluminous) corespondence is carried on Pine under a Unix shell account, and I ain't changin' it. [I offer Kevin Murrel's post above as a non-rancorous example] IMHO, it does little or no good to try and 'police' the issue case-by-case, due to the influx of new members and existing members forgetting or not caring. Most folk here are pretty sensitive to this, I have found, once made aware that HTML is displayed in it's raw state for many of Us. And I think it's much prettier cooked. It does seem to be a losing battle in the long run. If this instance of majordomo has such filters, I, for one, would like to see them energized.... Cheers John From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Feb 3 10:04:20 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3898FC06.BEDD05E2@halcyon.com> References: <200002030300.TAA24080@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: At 19:54 -0800 2/2/00, David C. Jenner wrote: >I vote for the new way. Me too. - Mark From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Feb 3 10:31:32 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: No I'm not going to retype the subject Message-ID: <200002031631.LAA09423@dbit.dbit.com> >From: allisonp@world.std.com >Another pet peeve, posts/replies in html, I don't read them and dump them >sumarily as A) they are often spam, B)the are a pain to handle via said >slow telnet and pine. I have the same attitude, WHY do people think we would even want to see a fancy schmancy version of what they typed as simple ASCII text, especially when many of us read this list on simple ASCII terminals anyway so we can't see any of the colors or misaligned columns. It's especially annoying when a message contains the same text twice, once as text and once as HTML, so at least half of the message is useless to *everyone*. I would *love* it if list servers could be set up to filter this crap out, or at the very least run the HTML text through Lynx or something and translate it back to usable 80-column ASCII. FWIW I'm not crazy about the new header format, when I replied to this msg with "R" (I'm using Berkeley Mail) it would have gone to Allison only, and when I changed to "r", the mailing list was only there as a Cc:, if I had edited out the other recipients there would have been *no* primary recipient, only a Cc:. And that's certainly not what we want! This problem comes up on every mailing list, maybe it would make sense to define an X-Foo: header that gives the mailing list address and hack the popular mailers to have a "reply to mailing list" command? Or has this already been done and I'm just oblivious as usual? Of course this wouldn't help Windows users running canned mailers with no source code available, but what can I say, shame on you!!! :-) John Wilson D Bit From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 3 10:38:23 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: <20000203100228.D4057@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: > I'm beginning to think that someone's replaced the subscription list > of classiccmp with a bunch of lusers. Don't you people know how to use > a mail client yet? > > -Rich That is rude and foolish. It's damm annoying to have to tell pine which to send to as it take this config and puts classiccmp as the CC: and the poster as the TO:. On a telnet link that trivial edit is really slow. I do know how to run a mail client and I happen to run some odd ones for my reasons. Pine can sort out the mess some but I access my ISP via a telnet connection from the work isp. So happens the work ISP is really poor and while I have a reliable 21.6k connection if I back up to edit the screen updates seem to suddenly take MINUTES, no exaduration. To back the cursor up it literally worse than editing on an old asr33!. If you know how to speed that up I'm all ears. Oh, I have to use telnet as MY ISP is in a different state and the only local access that would not use telnet is 25miles away as a long distance call. Now at home I run under W3.1 and use a nonwinsock based mailer (RFDmail) as its fast and worked with the unix shell account I have. It happens to not have group reply or the ability to sort out multiple from fields. Ok, you call that broken but it does move a meg of mail faster than Eudora or (gagme) netscape-mail and it's kin. I dont have to wait for trumpet winsock to wind up first either. The payback, ALL emailable viruses/trojans/worms are ineffective and can be safely recieved! Allison From dlw at trailingedge.com Thu Feb 3 10:42:01 2000 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: References: <3898FC06.BEDD05E2@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <200002031646.KAA12838@trailingedge.com> I prefer the old way, this new way is playing havoc with the filter functions on my mailer since the headers are never the same. 99% of the time I want to reply to the whole list and now it's more work to do that. On 3 Feb 00, at 7:59, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > My mailer doesn't "click"... > > On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, David C. Jenner wrote: > > > I vote for the new way. It's now trivial to > > reply either to the sender alone, the sender > > and the list, or the list alone. > > > > With a decent mailer each of these options is > > now one click. > > > > Vastly superior. > > > > Dave > > > > healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > > > > > > > I'm not saying any of this to say how it should be set up. That's not my > > > > call. I'm just saying what I've typically seen on other lists. If Derek > > > > wants it changed to the old method, he can do it or he can call me to do it. > > > > > > > > I personally prefer the new way, but my vote doesn't count! :) > > > > > > > > Jay West > > > > > > I personally vote for the old way! I'm on quite a few different ML's and > > > only the DECnet/Linux one does it this way. It's more of a pain to have to > > > get the correct TO: with it set this way that the old way! Especially if > > > I'm using 'elm', like right now, since I either have to forward it to the > > > ML, or remember to chage the TO: after I'm done typing the message. > > > > > > Zane > > > ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 3 10:45:38 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, John Lawson wrote: > Hmmmm... seems to me, running Pine as I do, that the "reply to" > issue, in my particular case, breaks down to laziness on my part: > Two keystrokes to set up a reply vs. replacing the Original Sender's > name with the list name. And I'm sure I could automate it but... why? This is somewhat of an issue for me. First when I reply pine asks if I want the orginal text, then it asks reply to ALL senders. that last question has a yes or no and if no only John gets this and if yes it's a duplicate as John is the TO: and Classiccmp is the CC: Sure I can edit it but this took over 7 minutes due to the loop echo time from the My ISP vis the pokey local ISP. From home this is less an issue. but then I'm only awake there for about 5 hours compared to the 9 here! Allison From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 11:46:48 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000203082231.00b462c0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Christian Fandt wrote: > I use Eudora and had just hit the "Reply All" button to publicly reply to > this msg as I do with several other lists I'm on. But Christian, your message went out twice: once to the list and once agan to poor Zane. Now my reply message is going out THRICE: once to the list, once again to poor Zane, and yet another time to poor you. Pretty soon, if people don't pay attention, 50 copies of the same message will go out rather than just the one that should go to the list. The intent of a mailing list is to be able to send one message to one address and have it disperse from there. This new reply-to mechanism defeats that purpose. Anyway, I wouldn't really care if I could figure out how to set the list back to postpone mode so I don't have to be getting any of these messages. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From spc at armigeron.com Thu Feb 3 10:55:26 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <20000203095650.B4057@alcor.concordia.ca> from "Rich Lafferty" at Feb 03, 2000 09:56:50 AM Message-ID: <200002031655.LAA06708@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Rich Lafferty once stated: > > A mailing list subscriber wants to receive mail at an address different > from that in his From: header. (Let's say he's using Pine without > ALLOW_CHANGING_FROM, or he's using some older MUA that doesn't even > have the concept of changing the From: header). So, he sets the > Reply-To: to the address at which he actually accepts mail; the From: > isn't meaningful anymore. > > Then it goes to the list, which replaces that Reply-To: with one > pointing at the list. > > Explain how someone wishing to reply to him can retrieve the correct > address at this point. (Or, phrased differently, why the mailing list > should change anything at *all* in the message being sent.) Because in this case, it's the Right Thing (TM). Honestly, just how often is your case even relevant? I subscribe from an account I can't read mail from so I want replies sent somewhere else? From (and sorry about the URL) http://www.unicom.com/BBS/bbs_forum.cgi?forum=replyto&read=000038-000000.msg&session=3899a9c653b6a5e4&use_last_read=on&last_read=0 1: The person must be sending from an account that s/eh cannot recieve mail from. While this may have been true in the past, in most cases people are reading/sending mail from the account they want the mail go to. In the 7 years I've been using email and the 2 years of working at an ISP I have only seen the reply-to used twice. Both times it was because a person was switching to a new account and wanted an effective way to get people in the habit of sending to the new address. In such cases the mailing lists are usually the first to move to the new address. Aside from a 1-2 day overlap, there really is no danger of missing any mail. And then there's http://www.unicom.com/BBS/bbs_forum.cgi?forum=replyto&read=000058-000000.msg&session=3899a8e8523e3f27&use_last_read=on&last_read=0 I found your site because someone posted the URL on the video4linux list, I by myself run a large site with 70 mailing-lists with over 15'000 subscribers. To be blunt, I think your page is useless with the exception to give you feedback from the "real" world. I wrote my list-software using procmail and perl-scripts to handle bounces, archiving and email-header settings, I provide the functionality, and list-operators who run the lists can decide whether they want reply-to set to the list or the sender ... by default it's back to the sender ... and 95% of all lists the *users* request me to set reply-to the list, because sender are flooded with replies which are meant for the list, and they end up forwarding them all. As comparison, we have 3'000 incomings email per day, and running them for four years I had to remove 4 emails from the archives because people accidently assumed the reply would go to the sender and not list itself. But not content with that, I decided to ACTUALLY READ RFC-822 and see what it says about this whole mess: 4.4.3. REPLY-TO / RESENT-REPLY-TO This field provides a general mechanism for indicating any mailbox(es) to which responses are to be sent. Three typical uses for this feature can be distinguished. In the first case, the author(s) may not have regular machine-based mail- boxes and therefore wish(es) to indicate an alternate machine address. In the second case, an author may wish additional persons to be made aware of, or responsible for, replies. A >>> somewhat different use may be of some help to "text message >>> teleconferencing" groups equipped with automatic distribution >>> services: include the address of that service in the "Reply- >>> To" field of all messages submitted to the teleconference; >>> then participants can "reply" to conference submissions to >>> guarantee the correct distribution of any submission of their >>> own. (emphasis mine). And that, I think ends this discussion. > It's awfully curious that a list full o' geeks can't figure out how to > reply to a message in their mail client. -spc (I can't figure out why anyone hasn't read the RFC until now ... 8-) From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 11:50:44 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <20000203095650.B4057@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Rich Lafferty wrote: > A mailing list subscriber wants to receive mail at an address different > from that in his From: header. (Let's say he's using Pine without > ALLOW_CHANGING_FROM, or he's using some older MUA that doesn't even > have the concept of changing the From: header). So, he sets the > Reply-To: to the address at which he actually accepts mail; the From: > isn't meaningful anymore. > > Then it goes to the list, which replaces that Reply-To: with one > pointing at the list. > > Explain how someone wishing to reply to him can retrieve the correct > address at this point. (Or, phrased differently, why the mailing list > should change anything at *all* in the message being sent.) Well, hmmm. Since you are obviously are subscribed to the list, and you obviously read the messages coming from the list, then that implies that replies going back to the mailbox from which you read the list will in fact reach you. So I guess what I'm saying is I don't understand your scenario. A little more specifics might help. > It's awfully curious that a list full o' geeks can't figure out how to > reply to a message in their mail client. Change always pisses people off (especially when it wasn't particularly broken in the first place). Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 11:52:32 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: <20000203100228.D4057@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Rich Lafferty wrote: > So don't send two messages. This is a straw man, and you know it. > > I'm beginning to think that someone's replaced the subscription list > of classiccmp with a bunch of lusers. Don't you people know how to use > a mail client yet? Rich, this is hardly constructive. So because you got a wild hair up your arse and decided to get nasty, I replied to you seven additional times with this message, including the one going out to the list. Enjoy! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 3 11:59:33 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <8025687A.0053B54C.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <200002031700.SAA22100@mail2.siemens.de> Well, Phillip already said most of the relevant Mail. So here's my ME-TOO-NOT-LIKE-THE-NEW mail: > >> The best text on the subject i've seen is ``Reply-To'' Munging Considered > >> Harmful by Chip Rosenthal. > >> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html > > And the rebuttle: http://www.metasystema.org/reply-to-useful.mhtml > > I personally like Reply-To: set to the mailing list. All the lists I'm on > > are set up that way and there have been no problems that I could see (yes, > > you see the occasional private message sent but it's not that big a > > problem). > Hello again everyone! Good to be back! Same here :) I already got a nervous breakdown, seeing that while I have been 5 days over the ocean just 27 'new' messages arrived ! > I have read both the above web articles. I'd like to cast my vote in favour of > REPLY-TO: == THE LIST > 1. I don't want to receive two messages when someone replies to me and the list > 2. With the old system, if someone forgot to change the header, there was a > spurious message, which I deleted. Some people might object to the waste of > bandwidth, but it merely gave me one extra message to delete. > With the new system, if someone forgets to change the header, the information > doesn't reach the list. This causes a bigger waste of bandwidth, because you > get more people answering the same question, not having seen each other's > replies. And it stifles discussion, because replies-to-replies often never get > generated (and these are sometimes the most useful). I just answered to Philips Mail, and only becaus I checked to be shure I recogniced that the list wasn't at all in the TO or CC headers ! > So the new method gives less info to the list for more use of bandwidth. IMHO, > not good. Like resending mails > I am on several lists, of which about half work the old way (reply to the list > by default). This is very convenient on all of them. Of the others, on the one > where I have asked questions I have received substantially the same reply > privately from several people, but the discussion hasn't borne fruit on the > list. Also my mailer (Pegasus/Win) just offers the ordinary 'reply' button. No selectable stuff, so I have to edit. End if you take a look at Ethans Mail: he is using some Web service, sending out dual mails .. And I REALY hate duplicate mails ... especialy when produced due uncommon machine features. As with all machine made decision you have a variety between right and wrong, and Reply-To enshures that the percentage of unwanted messages is way lower than the 'new' way. Last but not least, it's the RFC 822 way - and standards are the only real chance to go along. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 3 11:01:45 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... References: <200002030902.EAA29776@armigeron.com> <20000203095650.B4057@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <3899B479.90FEDFA8@rain.org> Rich Lafferty wrote: > > A mailing list subscriber wants to receive mail at an address different > from that in his From: header. (Let's say he's using Pine without > ALLOW_CHANGING_FROM, or he's using some older MUA that doesn't even > have the concept of changing the From: header). So, he sets the > Reply-To: to the address at which he actually accepts mail; the From: > isn't meaningful anymore. > > Then it goes to the list, which replaces that Reply-To: with one > pointing at the list. > > Explain how someone wishing to reply to him can retrieve the correct > address at this point. (Or, phrased differently, why the mailing list > should change anything at *all* in the message being sent.) > > It's awfully curious that a list full o' geeks can't figure out how to > reply to a message in their mail client. It ain't a matter of figuring it out, it is a matter of efficiency. Damn headers, like replying to you with the Reply button now and seeing the list isn't included, and I have to manually delete the 2nd spam to you. My feeling is that I won't tolerate this much longer and will most likely unsubscribe. While a valuable resource, it ain't worth the aggrevation of the way the headers are currently set up. FWIW, I copied this msg, deleted the original response, did a Reply All, deleted your email address, pasted back my original response, and am now continuing. I dislike things that steal my time and that is what these damn headers are doing now. If the list was primarily private responses, I could be talked into leaving it as it is ... but it is not. From at258 at osfn.org Thu Feb 3 11:03:11 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: No I'm not going to retype the subject In-Reply-To: <200002031631.LAA09423@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: I really hate that HTML mail crap, too, and usually just delete it. I have little enough time, anyway, I don't want to waste it it in HTML unless I'm writing it. On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, John Wilson wrote: > >From: allisonp@world.std.com > > >Another pet peeve, posts/replies in html, I don't read them and dump them > >sumarily as A) they are often spam, B)the are a pain to handle via said > >slow telnet and pine. > > I have the same attitude, WHY do people think we would even want to see a > fancy schmancy version of what they typed as simple ASCII text, especially > when many of us read this list on simple ASCII terminals anyway so we can't > see any of the colors or misaligned columns. It's especially annoying when > a message contains the same text twice, once as text and once as HTML, so > at least half of the message is useless to *everyone*. I would *love* it if > list servers could be set up to filter this crap out, or at the very least > run the HTML text through Lynx or something and translate it back to usable > 80-column ASCII. > > FWIW I'm not crazy about the new header format, when I replied to this msg > with "R" (I'm using Berkeley Mail) it would have gone to Allison only, and > when I changed to "r", the mailing list was only there as a Cc:, if I had > edited out the other recipients there would have been *no* primary recipient, > only a Cc:. And that's certainly not what we want! > > This problem comes up on every mailing list, maybe it would make sense to > define an X-Foo: header that gives the mailing list address and hack the > popular mailers to have a "reply to mailing list" command? Or has this > already been done and I'm just oblivious as usual? Of course this wouldn't > help Windows users running canned mailers with no source code available, > but what can I say, shame on you!!! :-) > > John Wilson > D Bit > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 3 11:03:26 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING References: <014201bf6df1$afe91fe0$0101a8c0@jay> <20000203100228.D4057@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <3899B4DE.8A001911@rain.org> Rich Lafferty wrote: > > I'm beginning to think that someone's replaced the subscription list > of classiccmp with a bunch of lusers. Don't you people know how to use > a mail client yet? Arrogance will get you flamed nicely. Is that what you are wanting to start? From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 3 11:05:00 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <200002031700.SAA22100@mail2.siemens.de>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 06:00:33PM +0000 References: <8025687A.0053B54C.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> <200002031700.SAA22100@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <20000203120500.O6677@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 06:00:33PM +0000, Hans Franke (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) wrote: > > Last but not least, it's the RFC 822 way - and standards are the > only real chance to go along. I'm not sure what you mean, here. RFC 822 specifies that the Reply-To: is to be set by the originator, but the rest of your post seems to suggest that majordomo should change it. Could you clarify? -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 12:09:06 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <8025687A.0053B54C.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: Prelude to this reply: Cursor Up Cursor Up Cursor Up Cursor Up Cursor Up Cut Line Cursor Down Cut Line Cursor Down Uncut Line Cursor Down Cursor Down Cursor Down Cursor Down > 2. With the old system, if someone forgot to change the header, there was a > spurious message, which I deleted. Some people might object to the waste of > bandwidth, but it merely gave me one extra message to delete. > > With the new system, if someone forgets to change the header, the > information doesn't reach the list. This causes a bigger waste of > bandwidth, because you get more people answering the same question, > not having seen each other's replies. And it stifles discussion, > because replies-to-replies often never get generated (and these are > sometimes the most useful). Exactly! And I guarantee you that if the list stays the way it is there will be so many duplicate messages flying about that those of us against the current system will be getting huffy all the time, constantly bitching to the list about it, which will result in more flame wars than were ever sparked by my bad attitude. And to reiterate, I think the most important point is that THE DISCUSSION WILL INEVITABLY SPLINTER OFF INTO PRIVATE DISCUSSIONS AND THIS DOES NOT BENEFIT THE LIST WHATSOEVER, not to mention future generations who will quite possibly miss a LOT of great information that could have been archived from public messages but instead was lost to time since the replies were private. This list is archived in at least two places that I know of: Classic Computers Mailing List Archives http://www.heydon.org/kevan/mlists/classiccmp/ (currently down according to Kevan's previous message) Classic Computers Mailing List Searchable Archives http://mail-index.nice.ru/classiccmp/wgindex.html This is an EXTRAORDINARILY valuable resource that will be diminished if many excellent replies to many good questions are administered in private discussions. Humankind does not gain by having to ask the same questions over and over again, only to have to repeat the work that someone already did to answer the question. > I am on several lists, of which about half work the old way (reply to > the list by default). This is very convenient on all of them. Of the > others, on the one where I have asked questions I have received > substantially the same reply privately from several people, but the > discussion hasn't borne fruit on the list. In other words, that information is effectively lost to time. That's shameful, considering our collective mission is to preserve information. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 3 11:12:41 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: NO HTML! was Re: No I'm not going to retype the subject References: Message-ID: <3899B709.7F682568@rain.org> "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > > I really hate that HTML mail crap, too, and usually just delete it. I > have little enough time, anyway, I don't want to waste it it in HTML > unless I'm writing it. I also really dislike the HTML and it only seems like a way for some people to display cutsie messages. It gets in my reader okay, but is not nearly as easy to read as the ascii text most people send to the list. From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 3 11:22:34 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list... References: <3899453C.1665E2F8@rdel.co.uk> Message-ID: <3899B95A.F05BA4FA@rain.org> Paul Williams wrote: > > > >And while we are on the topic of the list server, is it possible to have a > > >common date stamp put on all messages that are sent out from the listserver? > > >One of the major pains I have is when messages come in from different time > > >zones, and this ^%$^&$ software (Netscape Mail) sorts the damn stuff by date > > >without the option of not sorting. Among other reasons, a common date stamp > > >makes it FAR easier to keep track of who might be responding to something > > >first. > > > I'd object to some central server forging the best indication you've got > of how far along a conversation had got at the time I replied. I tolerate, but do not even slightly like, the fact that the dates that come in are dependent on the senders time/date stamp. Putting a realistic time stamp on a message is certainly not forging anything. Currently, messages come in all over the place (with regard to time/date order). Is this good? I think not! From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 3 12:23:36 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <20000203120500.O6677@alcor.concordia.ca> References: <200002031700.SAA22100@mail2.siemens.de>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 06:00:33PM +0000 Message-ID: <200002031724.SAA29602@mail2.siemens.de> (I just had to retype the mail, since my mailer did only reply to Rich) > On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 06:00:33PM +0000, Hans Franke (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) wrote: > > Last but not least, it's the RFC 822 way - and standards are the > > only real chance to go along. > I'm not sure what you mean, here. RFC 822 specifies that the Reply-To: > is to be set by the originator, but the rest of your post seems to > suggest that majordomo should change it. Could you clarify? As spc already cited (sp?) RFC 822 4.4.3 (paralell while I answered), he missed out the 'Note' you're going on. Just to put up the question who is the originator. Well, the originator is maybe the person who did send the mail ... or is it Majordomo ? Since Majordomo is not only a forwarding thing, but rather processing the mail and generating a new one. Anyway, I think this is advocates talk. Even if I'd agree to set the prior sender to be the originator (*1), The forwarding/list service should provide the service of setting reply-to as a courtsy to all te other users - if the 'originator' forgot to do so. Just as an usage of the Best-Possible-Result rule. Gruss H. *1 - just to come up with the question if, in this case, if the first sender is the originator, then, why are there different originators for all follow up replys ? They are just 'some black boxes' processing the information and generating new mails :)) -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 12:25:45 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: VCF Europe Announcement Message-ID: Ok, Hans Franke informs me that VCF Europe in Munich, Germany, is set for April 29th and 30th! More details to follow as I get them. The VCF website will be updated as time permits. A VCF Los Angeles is being considered, as well as a VCF East. And as always, VCF 4.0 will be held somewhere in the Silicon Valley sometime in the Fall. VCF: Coming to a town near you! It's like the circus, but better (we don't have any stupid clowns). Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Feb 3 11:34:03 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Feb 03, 2000 08:10:14 AM Message-ID: <200002031734.KAA04429@calico.litterbox.com> I tend to agree. Also the purist in me insists that email is a *text* protocol, not an HTML one. And I too dump every HTML message I get because ELM doesn't handle them, it just spews them out raw. Elm users, if you get annoyed by getting two copies every time someone does a group reply, I think you could set a filter up that searches for your address in "To" AND the list's address in the "cc" header and redirects those messages to /dev/null. I haven't tried this, nor have I given the headers of a list reply to a message of mine close scrutiny so I might be wrong. > Hmmmm... seems to me, running Pine as I do, that the "reply to" > issue, in my particular case, breaks down to laziness on my part: > Two keystrokes to set up a reply vs. replacing the Original Sender's > name with the list name. And I'm sure I could automate it but... why? > > If I had my druthers, I'd vote for the "old" way, however it's > almost a non-issue with me, and it even provides for a little > 'breathing room' right before I blast off a piquant reply that, in > the fulness of time, may or may not have been a little rash. > > NOW, FURTHERMORE: > > In all this discussion of the New Classiccmp regime... I would > like to weigh in with Allison on the issue of HTML and Binary > attachments propagated to this List. > > I belong to 6 other lists besides this one, and four have some kind > of HTML filtering and binaries-rejectors. I dislike, and delete > unread, HTML stuff, because this is an ASCII list and I engage it > with an ASCII mailreader. Yes, I have PPP accounts and Netscrape and > all the rest, but my central (and voluminous) corespondence is > carried on Pine under a Unix shell account, and I ain't changin' it. > > [I offer Kevin Murrel's post above as a non-rancorous example] > > IMHO, it does little or no good to try and 'police' the issue > case-by-case, due to the influx of new members and existing members > forgetting or not caring. Most folk here are pretty sensitive to > this, I have found, once made aware that HTML is displayed in it's > raw state for many of Us. And I think it's much prettier cooked. It > does seem to be a losing battle in the long run. > > If this instance of majordomo has such filters, I, for one, would > like to see them energized.... > > > Cheers > > John > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 3 11:44:42 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap In-Reply-To: <200002031734.KAA04429@calico.litterbox.com>; from jim@calico.litterbox.com on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 10:34:03AM -0700 References: <200002031734.KAA04429@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <20000203124442.S6677@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 10:34:03AM -0700, Jim Strickland (jim@calico.litterbox.com) wrote: > > Elm users, if you get annoyed by getting two copies every time someone does > a group reply, I think you could set a filter up that searches for your > address in "To" AND the list's address in the "cc" header and redirects those > messages to /dev/null. If you're using procmail instead of filter, there's a procmail recipe to get rid of duplicates in the procmailex(5) manual page, which works quite reliably. (Sorry, Sellam/Dastar.) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Feb 3 12:09:59 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: HOT TIP - System Available? Message-ID: <200002031809.MAA04232@falcon.inetnebr.com> Tracked it down; Wayne is no longer with them. They are going to double-check, but it sounds like I may be driving up there to get it this weekend.. ;-) Thanks! (On a sad note, the engineer said they "threw away an Altair" before he found out about it. I was ready to go excavate in the dump, but he said that was like 10 years ago. *sigh) >I was advised by a non-classiccmp'er yesterday that a PDP-11 type system in >some kind of rack is being decomissioned and is available. > >Contact Wayne Nelson of SDPTV in Vermillion, South Dakota - quickly > >That's all the contact info I currently have. > >Regards, > >Jay West > > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 3 12:27:42 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <200002031724.SAA29602@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: NOBODY had any serious difficulty using the old system. SOME people have some difficulty with the new system. SOME people find the old system to be more convenient. SOME people find the new system to be more convenient. But that is NOT due to any intrinsic advantage, it is due to being a better fit with THEIR mail programs. Over the years, I have gotten a LOT of flack for using "obsolete" computers. Even on this list! Over the years, I have gotten a LOT of flack for using "obsolete" software. Even on this list! Now, the folk who only use NEW programs have instituted a change that provides a trivially greater level of conveneince for them, at the cost of a mild level of inconvenience for those of us using OLD systems. On MOST lists, the answer is obvious: dump those who use OLD stuff. Is that the answer here, also? I will put up with the inconvenience because of the great people and discussions here. Even those of you who are COMPLETELY WRONG on this issue :-) For SEVERAL reasons, my access here is through telnet and PINE on the ISP. That doesn't give me much opportunity to rewrite, debug, or alter features or characteristics of the mail program. I'm stuck with whatever version of PINE the ISP is currently using. I have a completely separate set of access for web browsing. Some people say, "I'm on thousands of mailing lists, and they ALL use the OLD way." Some people say, "I'm on thousands of mailing lists, and they ALL use the NEW way." There must be a LOT of mailing lists to have so little overlap :-) One of the issues is consequence of error. Under OLD system, occasionally a message that was intended to be private went public. Under the NEW system, a large number of messages that were intended to be public will go private, and MANY (maybe MOST) messages will have DUPLICATES. Each person has their own opinion of the cost/benefit analysis of THAT issue. But none of that is the real problem. There simply needs to be a simple and easy choice between REPLY TO AUTHOR v REPLY TO LIST. On old PINE, that is what you have (a Y/N for using REPLY TO: v FROM:). On the NEW software, instead, the choices appear to be REPLY TO AUTHOR v REPLY TO BOTH AUTHOR AND LIST. Perhaps some rethinking is needed in the "NEW" mail programs?????? I, too, HATE html-mail! But the version of PINE that I'm using on THIS ISP handles it well! (Although in the same "upgrade", they completely and totally BROKE LYNX :-( ) But I want to thank MOST folk for becoming conscious of the fact that NOT every mail program is internally linked to a browser. THANK YOU for providing a one sentence explanation of any URLs that you post (rather than the old "Check out: http://www.obscure.nul") -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 3 12:36:21 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap In-Reply-To: <200002031734.KAA04429@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Jim Strickland wrote: > Elm users, if you get annoyed by getting two copies every time someone does > a group reply, I think you could set a filter up that searches for your > address in "To" AND the list's address in the "cc" header and redirects those > messages to /dev/null. I haven't tried this, nor have I given the headers of > a list reply to a message of mine close scrutiny so I might be wrong. On one list that I am on, the TO: and CC: portions of the header are unmunged. The only way to differentiate the list v author replies is by examining the routing in the headers, or by the extraneous advertising that the list's host appends to every message (which thus makes it possible to differentiate by length). On at least THAT list, the filter you describe would simply delete ALL copies of REPLIES, which might be a little anti-social :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From kla at helios.augustana.edu Thu Feb 3 12:44:02 2000 From: kla at helios.augustana.edu (Kevin L. Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: HTML and RTF mail -- Not entirely user control Message-ID: I, too, dislike HTML and RTF mail. I usually read all of my e-mail lists in digest form (which I am waiting to have activated for this list...), which means HTML letters cannot easily be deleted (a small price to pay). Most lists I am on filter those out at the server end. At the same time, any time you get a new user, you usually have to be patient and tell them how to turn off that feature if they are Netscape or IE user. But that isn't the only issue.... More serious, however, is that user may not be in full control over the turning off of that feature. The ISP and/or the organzation you work for may have control over the form that mail goes out onto the Internet. A good instance is the college I work for, and others that depend upon Microsoft Exchange Servers (regardless of the client end). Normally in X.400 protocol, when mail does go out the SMTP pipeline (such as to this list) the mail still goes out in HTML. My computer center apparently doesn't know how to turn that off (or will not do it), although I've asked them many times. They, like Microsoft, are counting on the users at the other end being individuals using either a browser interface or an Exchange-compatible client, both which will know how to deal with non-text files. So it becomes an institutional problem, out of control of the user. I get around it because I also have access to a Unix box, which is what I use for all e-mail list interactions. Expect this type of problem to happen more and more into the future as more users come online with non-Text based e-mail clients. Me and you folks will be unfortunately the exception. As a sidebar, I can take the "reply to" feature either way -- as a digest user for all my e-mail lists, I always have to cut-and- paste my address and subject lines (or retype them), as a reply would go only to the list (and never to the user), plus the subject line would be all wrong (Re: Digest 1002...; not to forget that I will have Mbytes of reply text to edit each time) My recommendation would be to follow whatever the current RFC standard is -- after all, the Internet functions only because people have adopted protocols. My two cents worth... Regards, Kevin Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent the administration of Augustana College. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 3 12:24:53 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <200002031646.KAA12838@trailingedge.com> (dlw@trailingedge.com) References: <3898FC06.BEDD05E2@halcyon.com> <200002031646.KAA12838@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <20000203182453.4365.qmail@brouhaha.com> "David Williams" wrote: > I prefer the old way, this new way is playing havoc with the filter > functions on my mailer since the headers are never the same. > 99% of the time I want to reply to the whole list and now it's more > work to do that. Strange! My filters (on the "Sender:" header) are working great. The header seems to always be Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org If you filter won't work on "Sender:", it looks like there's always a "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" in either the "To:" or "CC:" headers; my software can filter on those as well, but I suppose YMMV. From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 3 13:06:49 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: Simon Plans Message-ID: <3899D1C9.1920E861@rain.org> I received a number of private emails regarding the plans for the Simon relay computer, and I have sent out a couple of CDs with the scans of the article. Thanks to those of you who had suggestions for shringing down the file size. The total size runs about 270Mb on the TIFF scans sent out on CD (tranlates to about 8 MB per page.) I don't have software tools to try out some of the compression schemes so I will leave them as is for now. At this point, I am slowly looking for and acquiring the parts to build the thing. It looks like it would be a real trip to build and operate a computer capable of handling a 5 bit number :). From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 3 12:30:57 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list... In-Reply-To: <3899B95A.F05BA4FA@rain.org> (message from Marvin on Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:22:34 -0800) References: <3899453C.1665E2F8@rdel.co.uk> <3899B95A.F05BA4FA@rain.org> Message-ID: <20000203183057.4415.qmail@brouhaha.com> Marvin writes: > I tolerate, but do not even slightly like, the fact that the dates that come > in are dependent on the senders time/date stamp. Putting a realistic time > stamp on a message is certainly not forging anything. Currently, messages > come in all over the place (with regard to time/date order). Is this good? I > think not! It's the principle of least munging of headers again; it's considered bad form to modify the Date: header supplied by the sender. If possible, set your software to display and sort on the timestamp in the received header as seen here (from your posting): Received: (from majordom@localhost) by opal.tseinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA30204 for classiccmp-classiccmp-org-outgoing; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:23:20 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org) It's a bit tricky since there's more than one Received: header, but if you use the one that says "for classiccmp-classiccmp-org-outgoing", that's the most likely to get you accurate ordering (since everyone else's clocks don't necessarily match) and a consistent time zone. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 3 13:14:08 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: References: <8025687A.0053B54C.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000203131408.00c8f210@pc> At 10:09 AM 2/3/00 -0800, DASTAR COM wrote: > >In other words, that information is effectively lost to time. That's >shameful, considering our collective mission is to preserve information. Why hasn't anyone else piped up about the usefulness and reliability of using punched cards and paper tape to archive the mailing list as well as compose replies? My mail header may claim to say I use Eudora, but I actually use an ASR-33, sending tapes to my ISP for delivery. - John From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 3 12:37:24 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: (cisin@xenosoft.com) References: Message-ID: <20000203183724.4467.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > NOBODY had any serious difficulty using the old system. > SOME people have some difficulty with the new system. I disagree. I found the old system to be quite annoying. Every time I wanted to send a private reply, I had to grovel around in the headers to find the right address. As everyone has noticed, this often led to replys intended to be private winding up on the list. So I don't think it's accurate to say that "NOBODY had any..." From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 3 13:27:32 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In all this discussion of the New Classiccmp regime... I would >like to weigh in with Allison on the issue of HTML and Binary >attachments propagated to this List. I agree, I hate HTML and Binary attachments (though will use the binary attachments to a single person, if I know they can handle them). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 3 13:09:30 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2270 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000203/7b5741dc/attachment-0001.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 3 14:42:02 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:15 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000203131408.00c8f210@pc> References: Message-ID: <200002031943.UAA27180@mail2.siemens.de> (just realized that I did send this mail only to Eric - just I keep copies since the last failure ... not exactly a user friendly solution) > "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > NOBODY had any serious difficulty using the old system. > > SOME people have some difficulty with the new system. > I disagree. I found the old system to be quite annoying. Every time I > wanted to send a private reply, I had to grovel around in the headers to > find the right address. As everyone has noticed, this often led to > replys intended to be private winding up on the list. > So I don't think it's accurate to say that "NOBODY had any..." If you send more replys via PM than to the list you may be right. I'd still go for a 'least possible effort' rule - and my majority of replys goes direct to the list. Shure, I also did sometimes miss to change the To part (and I still apology therefore) but thats way more rare than the other way. (oh and note the 'serious' part you left out) Servus Hans From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 3 14:45:43 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002031946.UAA28012@mail2.siemens.de> > > Several people wrote.... > > > I wonder if you would prefer if the "Respond To" portion should be: > > > "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" > > > as it used to???? (Well it used to be: "classiccmp@u.washington.edu") > > > I know that sometimes caused a bit of a problem for posts that were > > > supposed to be off list, but I think that is the more intended aspect????? > > I've had a fair amount of experience using (and setting up and running) > > quite a few mailing lists. The way they were always set up was the user sent > > to the list, and the list sent the mail back to all the subscribers with the > > reply address being the user who sent the post originally. In this manner if > > you hit the REPLY button to a post, your message goes to the person who sent > > the post, not the list. If you hit the REPLY ALL button, then your response > > went to the list AND the original poster. This is how 99.9% of all the lists > > I've ever seen are configured. > Actually, I've been investigating that, and that is _not_ what happens, > at least not with my mailer. > I am on a number of mailing lists. The ones which have Reply-to: pointing > to the sender seem to have _very_ little discussion on them. Most people > just send replies to the sender rather than to the list. The original > poster gets a number of replies giving essentially the same information, > since nobody can know that other people have already replied. > On the other hand, the lists that have Reply-to: pointing to the list > almost always have a lot of discussion on them. > Posting to the list (and I've only done it twice) has _already_ become a > pain for me. I guess I'll stay here, but while I have to fool around > editing headers (or worse, editing files in my mail queue because I've > forgotten to edit the headers), I'll not post anything like as much as I > used to. Some of you might think that's a Good Thing, though ;-). Through we're no always share the same idea, I'd prefer to read your stuff. Servus hans -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 3 14:54:33 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <200002031946.UAA28012@mail2.siemens.de> References: Message-ID: <200002031955.UAA29643@mail2.siemens.de> > > > [...] > > Posting to the list (and I've only done it twice) has _already_ become a > > pain for me. I guess I'll stay here, but while I have to fool around > > editing headers (or worse, editing files in my mail queue because I've > > forgotten to edit the headers), I'll not post anything like as much as I > > used to. Some of you might think that's a Good Thing, though ;-). > Through we're no always share the same idea, I'd prefer to read > your stuff. > Servus > hans AAARGH - this was intended to go for Tony - This switching around with which address to select is ridicoulous. Sorry Hans -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From elvey at hal.com Thu Feb 3 14:07:53 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: Yet another real message: Looking for info on disk controller In-Reply-To: <200002031946.UAA28012@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <200002032007.MAA22741@civic.hal.com> Hi I have a Dynabyte DD disk controller. It has a WD1781 controller chip on it. Does anyone have Docs on this board? Also, does anyone know if the 1781 is instruction compatible with the more generic western digital controllers? Thanks Dwight PS On the address reply issue: While everything changes, while everything changes! Oh well! From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Feb 3 14:42:49 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001801bf6e87$3c3f87a0$90e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Zane wrote: Yes to everything! I just got home, and found that with the machine I use at home that this is even more of a royal pain! It looks like Eudora Pro doesn't have a group reply. I thought this was a pain in the neck with 'elm', and yes, multiple people have pointed out "Group Reply", but I don't consider sending the person who's message I'm replying to, two copies acceptable behavior! I know *I* don't want two copies everytime someone replies to something I wrote. Here is something else to consider, there have got to be list members that have to pay *PER MINUTE* connection fees (remember those? *I* sure do). You do a group reply to those folks, you're costing them money! Then there is the disk space and bandwidth wasted by two messages. Oh, and yes, these are a couple of the reasons that I get a more than a little irritated with non-ASCII email and binary attachments! I reply , only to the list: The reasons you give for wishing to change back are the reasons I wish things to stay as they are now. I hit "Reply to All" and the reply goes to you, and to the list. I hit "Reply", and only you get the reply. I can easily go to the TO box, and remove your name if I wish to reply only to the list. I'll do this now.....OK, took about 2 seconds. Where is the problem? FWIW, I don't believe thinly veiled threats on the part of prominent list members who want their own way should be considered valid arguments in this debate, I.E. : I'll stay subscribed for now (so I can get some replies on this) but if I have to unsubscribe then I hope there is an easy mechanism for me to continue to post messages to the list without having to be subscribed. If not, I don't think I'll be passing on any messages from people coming to me with old hardware wanting to find new homes for it. I would have expected more logical argumentation and discussion from a group heavily vested in this resource. Bill From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Feb 3 14:36:57 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: UnknownTI Hardware in Kansas City Message-ID: Back to old computers I came across a TI system 1100 in my surplus excavations. I haven't found anything on the Web about it. It's not a TI explorer. It looks like a blue-Grey deskside case. I've searched both TI's web site which indicates they sold all UNIX hardware to HP. I've searched HP's web site which is not very informative. Any information out there? Mike If I had kept one of every computer I've programmed I would be living in a warehouse without family or pets, but I would have lots of fun. mmcfadden@cmh.edu From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Feb 3 14:43:22 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: DEC Hardware in Kansas City, TK25, RD53 Message-ID: For all you mature computer lovers I just came across the following, I'm looking for a home for it. 2 TK25 tape drives in desktop cases 1 RD53 disk in desktop case 1 desktop case, looks like MicroVax2000 external disk or tape case. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Feb 3 14:50:31 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: Send Again instead of Reply Message-ID: I was just sitting looking at the headers, and it dawned on me, instead of reply I could just do a "send again" since the TO: header has the list address. This is using Eudora 3.1 on a Mac, but may apply to others as well. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Feb 3 14:51:48 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: Keydisc? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000203131408.00c8f210@pc> References: <8025687A.0053B54C.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: >Why hasn't anyone else piped up about the usefulness and reliability >of using punched cards and paper tape to archive the mailing list >as well as compose replies? My mail header may claim to say I use >Eudora, but I actually use an ASR-33, sending tapes to my ISP for delivery. This makes me curious, anybody have, or care about the Keydisc consoles that replaced keypunch for a lot of data entry? From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Feb 3 15:33:22 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: Vocal Minority Message-ID: In all the interesting discussion re: the 'reply' function (and I am a tad annoyed that I have to get two copies of each reply, from each person who replies, to a message that I posted, separated by as much as 15 minutes) I got to thinking that there might be 25 or 30 listmembers who actively post messages out of... ??? how many subscribers? 200? 400? Are (we) attempting to dictate list policy for the majority? Is anyone keeping even a rough record of the 'Old' vs 'New' camps? If votes be kept... I am tending to like the 'Reply To:' functionality the way it >WAS< ... ie' hitting 'reply' [in Pine] replies to the List and not to the Poster. I am one of those who has no control over the configuration of Pine, and, it would seem, neither does anyone else at Netcom/Mindspring/Earthlink, or whatever they're called *this* week. ;} obclassiccmp: Speaking of S/N ratios... I got a pair of DEC Pro-350 machines, with a large amount of original software packages, documentation etc... are there any other 300/350 owners out there who are trying to restore a system? I may be able to help with printsets, etc. Cheerz John PS: Classiccmp Mantra: "OM! Its only a hobby; Its only a hobby; Its only a hobby; Its only........." From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Feb 3 15:40:14 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: Keydisc? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >Why hasn't anyone else piped up about the usefulness and reliability > >of using punched cards and paper tape to archive the mailing list > >as well as compose replies? My mail header may claim to say I use > >Eudora, but I actually use an ASR-33, sending tapes to my ISP for delivery. > > This makes me curious, anybody have, or care about the Keydisc consoles > that replaced keypunch for a lot of data entry? Well... while I don't have one (tho it would look kool next to my '029), I do have (fond?) memories of working on one back in my data entry days... As well as some interesting(?) key to tape machines when I was doing data entry at Farmers Insurance. (eek! another bit of my sordid past leaks out...) ...and does anyone besides me think that the IBM 129 on eBay with the $1500.00 reserve (I think thats the amount I saw quoted) is just a bit 'out there'? -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From spc at armigeron.com Thu Feb 3 15:42:45 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: On Reply-To: munging from RFC-822, section 4.4.3 (page 22) In-Reply-To: <20000203120500.O6677@alcor.concordia.ca> from "Rich Lafferty" at Feb 03, 2000 12:05:00 PM Message-ID: <200002032142.QAA10929@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Rich Lafferty once stated: > > On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 06:00:33PM +0000, Hans Franke (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) wrote: > > > > Last but not least, it's the RFC 822 way - and standards are the > > only real chance to go along. > > I'm not sure what you mean, here. RFC 822 specifies that the Reply-To: > is to be set by the originator, but the rest of your post seems to > suggest that majordomo should change it. Could you clarify? Just in case you missed it last time (from RFC-822, available via ftp://nis.nsf.net/documents/rfc/rfc0822.txt , page 22): 4.4.3. REPLY-TO / RESENT-REPLY-TO This field provides a general mechanism for indicating any mailbox(es) to which responses are to be sent. Three typical uses for this feature can be distinguished. In the first case, the author(s) may not have regular machine-based mail- boxes and therefore wish(es) to indicate an alternate machine address. In the second case, an author may wish additional persons to be made aware of, or responsible for, replies. A somewhat different use may be of some help to "text message teleconferencing" groups equipped with automatic distribution services: include the address of that service in the "Reply- To" field of all messages submitted to the teleconference; then participants can "reply" to conference submissions to guarantee the correct distribution of any submission of their own. That last sentance allows majordomo to ``munge'' the Reply-To: field. If you want, I can even send you the RFC in question. -spc (Any questions?) From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 16:50:43 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: <001801bf6e87$3c3f87a0$90e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Bill Dawson wrote: > you, and to the list. I hit "Reply", and only you get the reply. I can > easily go to the TO box, and remove your name if I wish to reply only to the > list. I'll do this now.....OK, took about 2 seconds. Where is the problem? The problem here is diversity of mail clients. Not all allow you to simply delete the individual's address and be done with it. PINE, for instance (what I currently use) requires me to cut the classiccmp address from the CC line and paste it to the To: line, but only after I've deleted the To: line. You are looking at it from your (somewhat limited) perspective. You probably use a GUI-based e-mail client. I don't. Like many others, I prefer to use a text-based mail reader over a telnet connection because I'm old school and damn proud of it. In fact, a lot of people subscribed to this list are naturally old school, and naturally are using older systems without all the fancy editing features your mail reader apparently does. In fact, that's what this list is all about: old school people using old school systems to talk about old school computers. That being the case, the list should cater to us old schoolers. It should also: * Conform to the RFC * Be conducive to a PUBLIC discussion that can be archived for posterity * Not send out more replies than are required, thus annoying people > FWIW, I don't believe thinly veiled threats on the part of prominent list > members who want their own way should be considered valid arguments in this > debate, I.E. : <...> Well, I've pretty much laid out very logical reasons to revert to the old method, which I've reiterated above. Perhaps you need to read a little further into the discussion. Quite frankly, I don't care how it turns out because I'm only subscribed by virtue of the fact that I was a subscribed (but inactive) member of the old list. I'm just still trying to figure out a way to stop the messages from coming to me without having to unsubscribe. If I have to unsubscribe to make this happen, then I'll probably not want to go through the trouble of re-subscribing just to post a quick message say "This person has this hardware..." and then having to unsubscribe again. SO I guess what I'm saying is, this software sucks and has caused nothing but grief for all involved, so let's just go back to the old list processing software that u.washington.edu was using. Screw MajorDomo. I don't even like that name. What the fork is a MajorDomo anyway? Screw MajorDomo, it's developer, and the boat that person came in on. > I would have expected more logical argumentation and discussion from a group > heavily vested in this resource. Once would, but look at what we've mainly talked about since the list became active again. We're a wacky bunch. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Feb 3 15:55:13 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <200002031655.LAA06708@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <000501bf6e91$599ae560$90e3dfd0@cobweb.net> 4.4.3. REPLY-TO / RESENT-REPLY-TO This field provides a general mechanism for indicating any mailbox(es) to which responses are to be sent. Three typical uses for this feature can be distinguished. In the first case, the author(s) may not have regular machine-based mail- boxes and therefore wish(es) to indicate an alternate machine address. In the second case, an author may wish additional persons to be made aware of, or responsible for, replies. A >>> somewhat different use may be of some help to "text message >>> teleconferencing" groups equipped with automatic distribution >>> services: include the address of that service in the "Reply- >>> To" field of all messages submitted to the teleconference; >>> then participants can "reply" to conference submissions to >>> guarantee the correct distribution of any submission of their >>> own. (emphasis mine). And that, I think ends this discussion. O.K. Valid argument. I now agree with those who wish to change back to the *OLD* way. Most replies are directed back to the group anyway, not to individuals. It's not a case of hardware, software, or means. It's more one of functionality and purpose. The purpose should be to facilitate discussion with the group and to disseminate information to the group. A replies to an individuals directly is not the main purpose of CLASSICCMP as I see it. Bill FWIW, if you wish to reply to me directly: whdawson@mlynk.com Easy enough to replace the "TO address" with the above, isn't it. AAMOF, an individual's contact information should be one of the last items included in a post to the group. Isn't that why it was requested to be there before? From spc at armigeron.com Thu Feb 3 15:59:35 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: Not setting Reply-To: affects me this way ... Message-ID: <200002032159.QAA11180@armigeron.com> I just realized another annoyance I'm encountering because of the lack of Reply-To---I now have to search for mail I've sent. I use elm. I've been using elm since 1989 and I have no plans to change that any time soon (I've tried pine and I don't care for it). One setting I have enabled on elm is saving all email I send out. Such email is stored based upon the email address being sent to. Since a group reply places the list address in the Cc: line, the email is still stored, but not under the classiccmp folder (file actually), but a different folder. So now I have to search (grep) through 231 (at of right now) folders for messages I send to classiccmp. That also means when I want to save a particular message it won't be stuffed under the classiccmp folder by default (I'm used to hitting 's-enter' and now that does The Wrong Thing). But majordomo (or any mailing list software) is still RFC-822 compliant even if it does set the Reply-To: field and it seems to me that the annoyance having to do a 'group' reply outweighs the benefit of `reply' going to the list. So, what exactly, is the problem (really, no hypothetical pathological cases here) of setting the Reply-To: field? -spc (Yes, I should clean out my folders ... ) From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 3 16:07:37 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: On Reply-To: munging from RFC-822, section 4.4.3 (page 22) In-Reply-To: <200002032142.QAA10929@armigeron.com>; from spc@armigeron.com on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:42:45PM -0500 References: <20000203120500.O6677@alcor.concordia.ca> <200002032142.QAA10929@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <20000203170737.D10106@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:42:45PM -0500, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner (spc@armigeron.com) wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Rich Lafferty once stated: > > > > On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 06:00:33PM +0000, Hans Franke (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) wrote: > > > > > > Last but not least, it's the RFC 822 way - and standards are the > > > only real chance to go along. > > > > I'm not sure what you mean, here. RFC 822 specifies that the Reply-To: > > is to be set by the originator, but the rest of your post seems to > > suggest that majordomo should change it. Could you clarify? > > Just in case you missed it last time (from RFC-822, available via > ftp://nis.nsf.net/documents/rfc/rfc0822.txt , page 22): > > 4.4.3. REPLY-TO / RESENT-REPLY-TO > > This field provides a general mechanism for indicating any > mailbox(es) to which responses are to be sent. Three typical > uses for this feature can be distinguished. In the first > case, the author(s) may not have regular machine-based mail- > boxes and therefore wish(es) to indicate an alternate machine > address. In the second case, an author may wish additional > persons to be made aware of, or responsible for, replies. A > somewhat different use may be of some help to "text message > teleconferencing" groups equipped with automatic distribution > services: include the address of that service in the "Reply- > To" field of all messages submitted to the teleconference; > then participants can "reply" to conference submissions to > guarantee the correct distribution of any submission of their > own. > > That last sentance allows majordomo to ``munge'' the Reply-To: field. If > you want, I can even send you the RFC in question. You left out the context of that passage, which describes how the *originator* can use the Reply-To header. Majordomo is not the originator of messages sent to the list, it's the sender. RFC 822 also specifies Note: The "Reply-To" field is added by the originator and serves to direct replies, whereas the "Return-Path" field is used to identify a path back to the origina- tor. Although I'm starting to wonder if this isn't symptomatic of a majordomo bug, or at least a design flaw. It would make sense to me to configure Majordomo such that the Reply-To points to the list *unless* the originator added its own Reply-To, in which case it would leave that there. That way, you'd have discussion on the list except when the original poster intended otherwise, which strikes me as something that the original poster might very well want. This would satisfy the objection of lost information (which strikes me as the only thing that isn't a question of preference or user-agent configuration -- when majordomo strips a reply-to, it's *gone*) and the objection of encouraging public discussion (in that unless otherwise specified by the originator, the reply is directed to the list). I don't believe that this is possible with current majordomo, but I'm really not sure *why*. Does anyone know? If not, I think I might throw together a patch for this. (Would we want it? If nothing else I'll use it locally..) While trying to figure out why, I came across the following in the majordomo FAQ which might be worth considering: The most important reason why Reply-To: to the list is bad is that it can cause mail loops if any of the members of your list are running fairly-common but broken software which doesn't know what an envelope address is. (Many Microsoft products, as well as many other PC-based non-SMTP/Internet mail systems which work through an SMTP gateway.) I don't have any of those systems to find out what they're talking about, though. Or are they just referring to autoresponders? -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Feb 3 15:35:42 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap In-Reply-To: John Lawson "Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap" (Feb 3, 8:10) References: Message-ID: <10002032135.ZM5856@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 3, 8:10, John Lawson wrote: > In all this discussion of the New Classiccmp regime... I would > like to weigh in with Allison on the issue of HTML and Binary > attachments propagated to this List. [...] > If this instance of majordomo has such filters, I, for one, would > like to see them energized.... I was about to "second" Allison, but I'll "third" John instead since he beat me to it :-) I don't mind the bandwidth (though I might if HTML became more common), it's just that it's a nuisance to read HTML (or anything with "alternate-part"s) in another window, so I just skip over it with the delete key. And my non-Microsoft mailers on no-M$ OSs don't handle some of their more execrable alternatives anyway. As far as I'm concerned, email is an ASCII (or perhaps ISO-8859-X) medium. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Feb 3 16:15:46 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: regarding the reply address on the list...." (Feb 3, 18:00) References: <200002031700.SAA22100@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <10002032215.ZM5889@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 3, 18:00, Hans Franke wrote: > So here's my ME-TOO-NOT-LIKE-THE-NEW mail: > Last but not least, it's the RFC 822 way - and standards are the > only real chance to go along. Except that mailing lists are not what RFC 822 defined "Reply-to:" for. Its primary purpose is quite different; it's to force a reply to a valid address when the sender's "From:" is not valid. Quote: "The "Reply-To" field is added by the originator" The RFC 822 method would be to set the "From:" field to "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" , and set the "Sender:" field to the name of the person who originated the message (which is exactly the opposite to what majordomo is doing, I notice, but that's perfectly legitimate). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Feb 3 16:11:51 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd) In-Reply-To: Aaron Christopher Finney "Re: regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd)" (Feb 3, 7:59) References: Message-ID: <10002032211.ZM5885@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 3, 7:59, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > My mailer doesn't "click"... > > On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, David C. Jenner wrote: > > > I vote for the new way. It's now trivial to > > reply either to the sender alone, the sender > > and the list, or the list alone. > > > > With a decent mailer each of these options is > > now one click. Maybe Aaron has soundless keys :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 3 15:53:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 678 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000203/5c0b8a10/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 3 15:50:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3332 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000203/78f0428e/attachment-0001.ksh From west at tseinc.com Thu Feb 3 16:30:29 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: IMPORTANT PLEASE READ Message-ID: <012001bf6e96$46984fc0$d402a8c0@tse.com> I can't believe I heard someone say just go back to the old software. With the level of expertise of the people on this list, I should *NOT* have to say the following, but I'm apparently going to have to - PLEASE READ THIS: Majordomo is perfectly capable of making the list work just the way it always did. Period. It is not an issue of the list software forcing the configuration this way. It is not an issue with the host system. It is simply a configuration issue which can be easily changed. It can be done any way the folks here want it done and will work just as well as it always did. The problem I'm having is this: I am a relative newcomer to this list (about the last 12 months perhaps). I was not around when this list was started. As such, I have no knowledge as to if this list is owned by Derek and thus he has total sayso or if everything was always done by group concensus or what. I assumed (perhaps incorrectly - to this date I still have no idea if this is correct or not) that Derek ran the list. Please imagine my position. Everyone is saying do it one way or another and I don't know if I'm supposed to go with whatever Derek says or if I'm supposed to be listening and counting votes. I'm stuck in the middle because a fair number of folks aren't happy. I haven't received any email from Derek for several days so I don't know what should be done. I CAN do whatever should be done but SOMEONE has to tell me definitively what to do. My personal preference at this point is to change the configuration so that it works as it did on u.washington.edu. and we can always discuss the merits of doing it a different way later. That would be easy to do and I can do it right now. But there's the rub - if I go do that right now and make the reply-to stuff work the way it did am I stepping on Derek's toes? Or am I ignoring the will of the group? I would greatly appreciate it if someone could just authoritatively say "do it this way". I offered to do this free of charge and I have no problem with that at all. I just don't know who to listen to. Somebody educate me on this please. Jay West From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Feb 3 16:35:00 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "regarding the reply address on the list...." (Feb 3, 19:09) References: Message-ID: <10002032235.ZM5900@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 3, 19:09, Tony Duell wrote: > > Several people wrote.... > > > I wonder if you would prefer if the "Respond To" portion should be: > On the other hand, the lists that have Reply-to: pointing to the list > almost always have a lot of discussion on them. Interesting observation, and whilst I don't doubt Tony's word, I can't help noticing that an awful lot of discussion seems to have managed to make it's way onto the list today! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 3 16:41:45 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: IMPORTANT PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: <012001bf6e96$46984fc0$d402a8c0@tse.com>; from west@tseinc.com on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:30:29PM -0600 References: <012001bf6e96$46984fc0$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: <20000203174145.G10106@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:30:29PM -0600, Jay West (west@tseinc.com) wrote: > > Majordomo is perfectly capable of making the list work just the way it > always did. Period. Well, careful -- LISTSERV also offered the "Respect" option, which does as I describe below. I'm not sure if at UW the configuration was Reply-to= LIST # always force Reply-To: classiccmp@... or Reply-to= LIST,RESPECT # only add Reply-To: classiccmp@... if sender # didn't specify her own. Anyone remember? > ignoring the will of the group? I would greatly appreciate it if someone > could just authoritatively say "do it this way". I offered to do this free > of charge and I have no problem with that at all. I just don't know who to > listen to. Somebody educate me on this please. Out of curiosity, and without any other arguments surrounding it -- are there objections to having majordomo set the Reply-To unless the user explicitly sets it to something else? I've looked at the source and it seems like a trivial hack, and I'd be happy to submit a patch even if it's not going to be included in majordomo proper. (For what it's worth, this is even a contentious issue amongst the *developers* of majordomo! :-) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From spc at armigeron.com Thu Feb 3 16:46:51 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: On Reply-To: munging from RFC-822, section 4.4.3 (page 22) In-Reply-To: <20000203170737.D10106@alcor.concordia.ca> from "Rich Lafferty" at Feb 03, 2000 05:07:37 PM Message-ID: <200002032246.RAA11869@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Rich Lafferty once stated: > > On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 04:42:45PM -0500, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner (spc@armigeron.com) wrote: > > > > Just in case you missed it last time (from RFC-822, available via > > ftp://nis.nsf.net/documents/rfc/rfc0822.txt , page 22): > > > > 4.4.3. REPLY-TO / RESENT-REPLY-TO [ snip ] > > That last sentance allows majordomo to ``munge'' the Reply-To: field. If > > you want, I can even send you the RFC in question. > > You left out the context of that passage, which describes how the > *originator* can use the Reply-To header. Majordomo is not the > originator of messages sent to the list, it's the sender. RFC 822 also > specifies > > Note: The "Reply-To" field is added by the originator and > serves to direct replies, whereas the "Return-Path" > field is used to identify a path back to the origina- > tor. That note comes from section 4.3.1, which covers RETURN-PATH. But this now hinges on what you (or RFC-822) means by ``originator.'' I interpret that to mean the mailing list software. I (originator #1) send a message to the list. That in turn accepts the mail, then turns around and then becomes originator #2 in sending a copy out to the recipients of the list. > Although I'm starting to wonder if this isn't symptomatic of a > majordomo bug, or at least a design flaw. It would make sense to me to > configure Majordomo such that the Reply-To points to the list *unless* > the originator added its own Reply-To, in which case it would leave > that there. To me that sounds reasonable, but that still means you have to be careful in replying privately to a message send publically without an explicit Reply-To: added by the original sender. > While trying to figure out why, I came across the following in the > majordomo FAQ which might be worth considering: > > The most important reason why Reply-To: to the list is bad is that it > can cause mail loops if any of the members of your list are running > fairly-common but broken software which doesn't know what an envelope > address is. (Many Microsoft products, as well as many other PC-based > non-SMTP/Internet mail systems which work through an SMTP gateway.) > > I don't have any of those systems to find out what they're talking > about, though. Or are they just referring to autoresponders? You got me there. My experience has only been with Unix based tools. -spc (The Devil is in the details, eh?) From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Feb 3 16:52:08 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: 150 kVA Topaz available Message-ID: Here at wurk they have decomissioned a largish computer room, shipped off all the 'puters in their crates, and disposed of the above-captioned Topaz unit. It has Model number A9-M150, and has three seperate breaker sections in it, each with 30 or so single-phase breakers, one 225 A disconnect per section, and a 300A main breaker, as well as the displays for the input and regulation sections. It is big, heavy +/- 1 kilopounds, on wheels... Any interest? It can be had fairly cheaply, and must have been in the $20K range new. E-mail me off list if interested. Cheers John From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Feb 3 16:58:16 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: IBM card punches (was Re: Keydisc?) Message-ID: <20000203225816.8628.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> --- James Willing wrote: > Well... while I don't have one (tho it would look kool next to my '029) You have an 029? I've got an 026 that is in need of some cleaning/adjusting. Have you ever gone through the process? When we fire it up, not all the right things happen when feeding a card from the hopper. Where do you get your punch cards from? I know you can still order them, but I don't want to buy 10,000 cards at a time. I'm thinking more like a few hundred at a time, and a few colored cards for dividers. Also, do you have a set of the leaf-spring force measurement thingies? I need to aquire a set for the 026 and TTY adjustment, and have no idea where to buy them. Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 3 16:24:09 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: On Reply-To: munging from RFC-822, section 4.4.3 (page 22) In-Reply-To: <200002032246.RAA11869@armigeron.com> (spc@armigeron.com) References: <200002032246.RAA11869@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <20000203222409.5963.qmail@brouhaha.com> There's an obvious solution to this problem which will satisfy (almost) everyone. Set up two lists, one with each behavior. Arrange for a single address to mail postings, which get distributed to both lists. (It would be bad to have two addresses, as inevitably someone would send the same postings to both.) Each individual subscriber can choose which header style he or she desires by subscribing to the appropriate list. This requires a bit more work (one time) on the part of the system administrator (Jay). I'd be willing to help with that. (This would be even easier with mailing list software that sent each message separately per subscriber, as is done by Ezmlm. But I don't think Majordomo works that way.) From spc at armigeron.com Thu Feb 3 17:08:54 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: IMPORTANT PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: <012001bf6e96$46984fc0$d402a8c0@tse.com> from "Jay West" at Feb 03, 2000 04:30:29 PM Message-ID: <200002032308.SAA12206@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Jay West once stated: > > My personal preference at this point is to change the configuration so that > it works as it did on u.washington.edu. and we can always discuss the merits > of doing it a different way later. That would be easy to do and I can do it > right now. But there's the rub - if I go do that right now and make the > reply-to stuff work the way it did am I stepping on Derek's toes? Or am I > ignoring the will of the group? I would greatly appreciate it if someone > could just authoritatively say "do it this way". I offered to do this free > of charge and I have no problem with that at all. I just don't know who to > listen to. Somebody educate me on this please. It is easier to ask forgiveness than ask permission. Change it. If Derek complains, ask for forgiveness and change it back. Then we can complain to Derek. -spc (I'll take the responsibility then!) From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 18:09:25 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <10002032215.ZM5889@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Except that mailing lists are not what RFC 822 defined "Reply-to:" for. > Its primary purpose is quite different; it's to force a reply to a valid > address when the sender's "From:" is not valid. > > Quote: "The "Reply-To" field is added by the originator" It's a matter of semantics but arguably the "originator" in this case is the list software. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 18:15:39 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: IMPORTANT PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: <012001bf6e96$46984fc0$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Jay West wrote: > ignoring the will of the group? I would greatly appreciate it if someone > could just authoritatively say "do it this way". I offered to do this free > of charge and I have no problem with that at all. I just don't know who to > listen to. Somebody educate me on this please. Ok, here you go: Change the reply-to address to be the list by default. I have spoken. (OK, flame away...I'm unsubscribing now anyway :) Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From dastar at siconic.com Thu Feb 3 18:17:02 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: IMPORTANT PLEASE READ In-Reply-To: <20000203174145.G10106@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Rich Lafferty wrote: > Out of curiosity, and without any other arguments surrounding it -- > are there objections to having majordomo set the Reply-To unless the > user explicitly sets it to something else? I've looked at the source > and it seems like a trivial hack, and I'd be happy to submit a patch > even if it's not going to be included in majordomo proper. I think this is a mighty fine solution and I endorse. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Feb 3 17:33:36 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "RE: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING" (Feb 3, 21:50) References: Message-ID: <10002032333.ZM6043@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 3, 21:50, Tony Duell wrote: > > The reasons you give for wishing to change back are the reasons I wish > > things to stay as they are now. I hit "Reply to All" and the reply goes to > > you, and to the list. I hit "Reply", and only you get the reply. I can > > Ah, but that doesn't work properly if you're replying to a message that > somebody else has already group-replied to. > > Supposing you post to classiccmp, and I group-reply. The message is now > going to classiccmp@... _and you_. Suppose Philip Belben then > group-replies to the message. It now has you, me, and the list as > addresses. Then Megan (say) group-replies to that. Before long, the > header contains the address of every 'regular' here. And we all get > things twice. > > The only ways for me to reply to the list _only_ seem to be : You missed one: "reply-all" and remove the original author's address. It obviously depends on the mailer(s) involved. With the one I use nearly all the time (zmail under Unix), if I hit "reply all" then both the list and original author addresses appear in the "To:" header, and because of the way that's presented by this particular mailer, it's easy for me to remove the one I don't want (two keystrokes). However, if I reply to a followup that someone else has already responded to, and that message has the list address in the "Cc:" instead of the "To:" header, zmail keeps it in the "Cc:" and it means two more keystrokes to fix. I can do exactly the same thing in BSD Mail but it take an extra keystroke or two. And I apologise not always practising what I preach, i.e. for sending 3 extra copies of an earlier followup :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Feb 3 17:45:57 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: Identification of EPROM Programming board - AIM or KIM or ??? Message-ID: <000e01bf6ea0$d16a71a0$90e3dfd0@cobweb.net> To All, I just obtained a board which I think is an EPROM programming board for the AIM or KIM or ???, and I'm trying to find some information on it. It is not an RM65 board, the connector looks like it would plug right to an AIM. Here is a description: Measures 4-7/16 (4.4375)inches wide by 6-1/2 (6.5) inches long, including edge connector, lengthwise insertion. 44 pin gold plated edge connector with a 44 pin socket mounted immediately behind and parallel to the edge connector, on the component side of the PCB. 24 pin ZIF connector in the upper LH corner, viewing with the edge connector facing me (all descriptions below assume this position). 10 position DIP switch immediately to the right of the ZIF socket (no labeling), and another 10 position dip switch about halfway up the RHS, labeled 1 to 7 and B, C, D (probably address selection since one row of pins is all tied common and most of the pins on the other side of it go to a 74LS154). One LED, immediately to the right of the first 10 position DIP switch mentioned above, at the edge of the board. Two trimpots about center of the far edge of the board, to the right of the LED. Two jumper blocks, one with 2 pins, labeled W1, and one with 3 pins, labeled RO and RA. Two Toshiba 24 pin TMM2016P-1 RAMs left of center in second row of DIPs on the board. One 2516-45 EPROM to the left of the RAMS, with a label on top "6517A". On the solder side the only markings (in etch) are CUBIT INC, 1981 and the numbers 10362 and 6583. Most of the date codes on the ICs are between 8037 and 8203. There is no other model number, manufacturer, or other ID marking on this board. If anyone has any information on this board, please let me know (through the list). Thanks all, Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Thu Feb 3 17:47:36 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... References: <00dc01bf6deb$9b69af40$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <026c01bf6ea1$374f5800$a6e993c3@proteus> Hi Mike, > When I hit "reply to all" the list goes in the cc field.... >....95% of the time I want to reply to the list. Quite, the way the list is set up now, whether I hit "Reply to sender" or "Reply to all", I end up having to edit the "To:" field of the message to remove the senders' address. Frankly this really sucks, BIG TIME.... :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Thu Feb 3 17:47:01 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... References: <200002030902.EAA29776@armigeron.com> <20000203095650.B4057@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <026b01bf6ea1$3514aa40$a6e993c3@proteus> Hmm, only my second posting to the new list and already editing the "To:" address has become more than mildly annoying. :-( > Explain how someone wishing to reply to him can retrieve the >correct address at this point.... Well Brainiac, the new mailing list software doesn't appear to mess with the "Reply To:" field so it wouldn't be a problem. > It's awfully curious that a list full o' geeks can't figure out >how to reply to a message in their mail client. It's awfully curious that you're not able to figure this out for yourself....but then judging from the tone of your messages perhaps it isn't.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Feb 3 17:55:18 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: On Reply-To: munging from RFC-822, section 4.4.3 (page 22) In-Reply-To: <20000203222409.5963.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 10:24:09PM -0000 References: <200002032246.RAA11869@armigeron.com> <20000203222409.5963.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000203185518.B13547@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 10:24:09PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > There's an obvious solution to this problem which will satisfy > (almost) everyone. > > Set up two lists, one with each behavior. Arrange for a single address > to mail postings, which get distributed to both lists. (It would be bad > to have two addresses, as inevitably someone would send the same postings > to both.) > > Each individual subscriber can choose which header style he or she desires > by subscribing to the appropriate list. That's *such* a good idea! I was going to suggest modifying the list server to have user-settable preferences and giving everyone the exact headers they want, but no one would ever get around to doing that (certainly not me, any time soon!). But making it two separate lists would take no time at all... Plus this flamewar could go away since people wouldn't have to agree after all! John Wilson D Bit From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Feb 3 17:56:21 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:16 2005 Subject: IBM card punches (was Re: Keydisc?) In-Reply-To: <20000203225816.8628.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- James Willing wrote: > > Well... while I don't have one (tho it would look kool next to my '029) > > You have an 029? Yep! Immortalized in flying bits on my web pages! > I've got an 026 that is in need of some cleaning/adjusting. > Have you ever gone through the process? Oh yes... many a time over the years. (complete docs help) > When we fire it up, not all the right things happen when feeding a card > from the hopper. Been there... What sort of 'not right things' are happening? (or not as the case might be) Most common gremlin I've seen on mine is a group of cam driven actuators that cycle a gang of lever switches, and the lubrication gums up and causes the actuators to stick (or be slow) and that completely messes up the cycling of the machine. I usually end up pulling out the block, removing all of the actuators (think there are five of them), giving them all a good clean and lube, and then we're off for another stretch. > Where do you get your punch cards from? I know you can still order them, > but I don't want to buy 10,000 cards at a time. I'm thinking more like > a few hundred at a time, and a few colored cards for dividers. Been there too... My current 'stock' was culled from a local recycler who had just carted off a large mainframe based data center and multiple pallets of cards. I got them for a couple of bucks per box, but the trick was to sort out the unused cards from the punched! All of the boxes of cards you see were palletized with little regard for where they had been on the shelves. B^{ Ummm... wait... 10,000??? that's only five boxes! Where did you find that would sell in that small a quantity? > Also, do you have a set of the leaf-spring force measurement thingies? I > need to aquire a set for the 026 and TTY adjustment, and have no idea where > to buy them. No, that's one tool that I've not picked up so far although they seem common enough. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Thu Feb 3 18:08:29 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:17 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING References: Message-ID: <02e801bf6ea4$22004c40$a6e993c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > I have always believed that on a discussion list like this you >should try to 'put something back in'.... > > This is a discussion list. I am of the (not so humble) opinion that >answers to questions posted here should also be posted to the list.... > > Remember this list is archived, and hopefully in the future it will >be of interest to computer historians. I suspect that the answers will >be at least as interesting as the questions, and thus need to be >archived as well. HALLELUJA!! TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From jmd at infinet.com Thu Feb 3 18:07:29 2000 From: jmd at infinet.com (jmd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: Sony SMC-70 floppy disks Message-ID: <389A1841.CC1AF0EE@infinet.com> Hi all........ Good to see the list back again...... Recently I picked up a Sony SMC-70 with CP/M for Sony on floppy disks. I have recreated what the original owner had by purchasing the same model monitor and using his cable to connect the computer to the monitor. This is not the OEM monitor (anybody know what was?) but this setup worked for him. When I turn on the computer it scans for the floppy in a:, b: and then pauses and comes back to a: and reads the disk for about 12 seconds. Nothing more happens. There is no display on the screen. If I leave the a: drive empty and have *any* floppy in b: the computer scans a:, then b: goes back to b: for a couple of seconds then begins to beep until I put a floppy in a:. Still nothing on the screen. There is a switch on the side that has 3 options: OFF DISK ROM I have tried all three with no output to screen. Things I have done. 1) Double checked the pinouts against the drawing I was given. 2) I have tried the cable that connects to a B/W port on the box. I connect this to video on the monitor. 3) I have tested the monitor. I know it works in TV and video mode, but have no way to test for RGB. Which is how I am connecting. I am wondering if the floppies may have gone bad. (There are 4 disks labeled CP/M 2.2 and one also says Sony CP/M 2.2) They have been laying around for several years I think. If this is a possibility does anyone have known good floppies? thanks for any info jeff duncan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 3 17:26:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: IBM card punches (was Re: Keydisc?) Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 780 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000203/0034fc62/attachment-0001.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 3 19:16:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... Message-ID: <200002040116.UAA29337@world.std.com> I had to edit the header again, or this reply would have gone to Eric. I checked what the mailer(RFDmail) at home does... Same thing it did before. The last FROM: address it sees is the assumed reply address. Oh well. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 3 19:11:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: Sony SMC-70 floppy disks Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2436 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000204/d97ee4b3/attachment-0001.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 3 20:33:59 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: Identification of EPROM Programming board - AIM or KIM or ??? In-Reply-To: <000e01bf6ea0$d16a71a0$90e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000203213359.460f0f44@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Bill, I don't have any information on your board but The S-100 & Other Micro Buses by Poe and Goodwin talks about a KIM-4 board that is an expansion board for the Kim-1. The Kim-4 measures 11 x 11.5" inches and has two sockets that mate to the two expansion connectors on the Kim-1. The Kim-4 has six "expansion module connectors" on it that look similar to the card sockets in an IBM PC. The module connectors have 44 pins and the connections are *ALMOST* the same as those on the Kim-1. The Kim-4 also has one application connector on one edge and one bus expansion connector on the end opposite the Kim-1 connectors. The book says that the Kim-4 was made by MOS Technology, Inc. The same book also shows a "KIMSI" expansion board for the Kim-1. The KIMSI has eight >> S-100 buss << expansion connectors. FWIW, Joe At 06:45 PM 2/3/00 -0500, you wrote: >To All, > >I just obtained a board which I think is an EPROM programming board for the >AIM or KIM or ???, and I'm trying to find some information on it. It is not >an RM65 board, the connector looks like it would plug right to an AIM. Here >is a description: > >Measures 4-7/16 (4.4375)inches wide by 6-1/2 (6.5) inches long, including >edge connector, lengthwise insertion. > >44 pin gold plated edge connector with a 44 pin socket mounted immediately >behind and parallel to the edge connector, on the component side of the PCB. > >24 pin ZIF connector in the upper LH corner, viewing with the edge connector >facing me (all descriptions below assume this position). > >10 position DIP switch immediately to the right of the ZIF socket (no >labeling), and another 10 position dip switch about halfway up the RHS, >labeled 1 to 7 and B, C, D (probably address selection since one row of pins >is all tied common and most of the pins on the other side of it go to a >74LS154). > >One LED, immediately to the right of the first 10 position DIP switch >mentioned above, at the edge of the board. > >Two trimpots about center of the far edge of the board, to the right of the >LED. > >Two jumper blocks, one with 2 pins, labeled W1, and one with 3 pins, labeled >RO and RA. > >Two Toshiba 24 pin TMM2016P-1 RAMs left of center in second row of DIPs on >the board. > >One 2516-45 EPROM to the left of the RAMS, with a label on top "6517A". > >On the solder side the only markings (in etch) are CUBIT INC, 1981 and the >numbers 10362 and 6583. Most of the date codes on the ICs are between 8037 >and 8203. There is no other model number, manufacturer, or other ID marking >on this board. > >If anyone has any information on this board, please let me know (through the >list). > >Thanks all, > >Bill > >whdawson@mlynk.com > > From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 3 19:42:53 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: To anybody & everybody who needs to rebuild their Macintosh Portable batteries. Message-ID: <20000204014253.3806.qmail@hotmail.com> Great news! If there is anybody looking for replacement cells for their Macintosh Portable batteries, go to this site: http://www.hepi.com/ look for 2V 5.0Ah "Cyclon" size "X" cells They don't mention prices on the site, however, so buyer beware. Also, I don't want to get 20 e-mails saying that I led you to a company that ripped you off. I cannot, & will not, be held accountable for your actions! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mbg at world.std.com Thu Feb 3 19:49:22 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... Message-ID: <200002040149.UAA20094@world.std.com> >NOBODY had any serious difficulty using the old system. That is an assumption on your part... it just so happens that some of us did have problems with the old system. It seems that maybe we just didn't complain about it enough... :-) >SOME people have some difficulty with the new system. Parity... In fact, for this 'response', I decided to simply make it a new 'send' to the list, so the original author won't get a second copy of this message... this is easier for me than to have to search for and then cut-and-paste the address of the author if I want to send just to them... after all, the list is at a fixed address (for now). After all that, however, I'm going to withdraw my vote for the new system, I'll abstain. I'll get by with whatever is available (so long as it isn't the HTML-cr*p)... I do like Sellam's argument about information lost due to doing a reply and having it go only to the author and not the list. My $.02 Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Feb 3 20:50:05 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: CDC 9448 Message-ID: <20000203.205006.101.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: Anyone out there that still uses these? I have a bunch of spares (boards and r/w heads) for 'em. If there's any interest, please e-mail me privately. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 3 21:02:16 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <200002040149.UAA20094@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Megan wrote: > >NOBODY had any serious difficulty using the old system. > That is an assumption on your part... it just so happens that some of us > did have problems with the old system. It seems that maybe we just didn't > complain about it enough... :-) I stand corrected. I'll need to change that to: "Nobody complained about problems using the old system." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Feb 3 21:33:45 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: Focal In-Reply-To: <38999F74.31A88264@jaywalk.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000203193345.02ff7958@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Jon: I don't have the FOCAL source. I'm not sure it is available. Anyone comment? Kevin At 03:32 PM 00/02/03 +0000, you wrote: >Do you have the original source code for focal....I've looked at the >focal.txt file, but i'd like to know how everything works > >JON > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Feb 3 21:36:12 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: References: <200002031631.LAA09423@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000203193612.02ffbe40@ferrari.sfu.ca> I too vote against embedded HTML in email. Give me the content, the fancy formatting is superfluous. Kevin At 12:03 PM 00/02/03 -0500, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > >I really hate that HTML mail crap, too, and usually just delete it. I >have little enough time, anyway, I don't want to waste it it in HTML >unless I'm writing it. > >On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, John Wilson wrote: > >> >From: allisonp@world.std.com >> >> >Another pet peeve, posts/replies in html, I don't read them and dump them >> >sumarily as A) they are often spam, B)the are a pain to handle via said >> >slow telnet and pine. >> >> I have the same attitude, WHY do people think we would even want to see a >> fancy schmancy version of what they typed as simple ASCII text, especially >> when many of us read this list on simple ASCII terminals anyway so we can't >> see any of the colors or misaligned columns. It's especially annoying when >> a message contains the same text twice, once as text and once as HTML, so >> at least half of the message is useless to *everyone*. I would *love* it if >> list servers could be set up to filter this crap out, or at the very least >> run the HTML text through Lynx or something and translate it back to usable >> 80-column ASCII. >> >> FWIW I'm not crazy about the new header format, when I replied to this msg >> with "R" (I'm using Berkeley Mail) it would have gone to Allison only, and >> when I changed to "r", the mailing list was only there as a Cc:, if I had >> edited out the other recipients there would have been *no* primary recipient, >> only a Cc:. And that's certainly not what we want! >> >> This problem comes up on every mailing list, maybe it would make sense to >> define an X-Foo: header that gives the mailing list address and hack the >> popular mailers to have a "reply to mailing list" command? Or has this >> already been done and I'm just oblivious as usual? Of course this wouldn't >> help Windows users running canned mailers with no source code available, >> but what can I say, shame on you!!! :-) >> >> John Wilson >> D Bit >> > >M. K. Peirce >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. >215 Shady Lea Road, >North Kingstown, RI 02852 > >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Feb 3 21:53:36 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: <35.e3f778.25cba740@aol.com> Hello all Sadly, the WD1770 fcd IC in my home-brew fd i/o board finally gave up the ghost. Fourteen years of service is admirable -- when it finally croaked, I felt like weeping. Additionally, in violation of my policy of *always* keeping spares of discontinued components which I use -- I have no spare. Does anyone know of a source for these? Or the 1772 (I believe Tony Duell once mentioned that the 1772 could replace the 1770 in most cases -- but I could be wrong). Also, I understand that the C64 floppy drives (1581?) used the 1770 but I'm not a commie and can't immediately verify this. Anyone out there with junk C64 drives who wants to liberate this IC -- to a good home?? Any help at all on this will be greatly appreciated. Glen Goodwin 0/0 From rickb at bensene.com Thu Feb 3 22:41:35 2000 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: Focal In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000203193345.02ff7958@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: I have a VERY OLD listing of FOCAL-69 PAL-8 source (printed by, as I recall, a Centronics 101 printer attached to a Straight-8). It'd take some serious digging to find it, but I know it's around here somewhere. It's an amazing piece of programming. I spent a lot of time many years (like, oh, 23 years ago) ago figuring out how it all worked, and wrote a FOCAL interpreter, in, get this--- HP 2000F Timeshare BASIC. Needless to say, it was kind of slow...but it worked. I should dig it out and type it in...it wouldn't take too long. It's old enough that it's probably beyond scanning. Rick Bensene The Old Calculators Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/oldcalculators Kevin McQuiggin wrote, in response to a query by Jon Andrews: > > Hi Jon: > > I don't have the FOCAL source. I'm not sure it is available. > Anyone comment? > > Kevin > Jon wrote: > >Do you have the original source code for focal....I've looked at the > >focal.txt file, but i'd like to know how everything works > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Feb 3 21:45:03 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: Focal Message-ID: <01a901bf6ec2$38971740$702cd1d8@default> When requesting original DEC source code one must include flavor (12 bit, 16bit, 18bit, 36 bit) and vintage (Focal-1968, Focal-1969, Focal-1970, Focal 1.0b, etc), and style (preliminary, beta, released). I received a huge amount of original commented FOCAL source code/OP system source code in many different formats [paper tapes, dectapes, floppies, rk05 packs, etc..] from the DEC load. I hope to put the code online this year but....what do you need? john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com -----Original Message----- From: Kevin McQuiggin To: Jon Andrews Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, February 03, 2000 10:35 PM Subject: Re: Focal >Hi Jon: > >I don't have the FOCAL source. I'm not sure it is available. Anyone comment? > >Kevin > >At 03:32 PM 00/02/03 +0000, you wrote: >>Do you have the original source code for focal....I've looked at the >>focal.txt file, but i'd like to know how everything works >> >>JON >> >> > >--- >Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD >mcquiggi@sfu.ca > From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Feb 3 23:05:33 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: Focal In-Reply-To: <01a901bf6ec2$38971740$702cd1d8@default> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000203210533.00756154@ferrari.sfu.ca> If the source is available (and distributable) I can post a copy on highgate. Kevin At 10:45 PM 00/02/03 -0500, John B wrote: >When requesting original DEC source code one must include flavor (12 bit, >16bit, 18bit, 36 bit) and vintage (Focal-1968, Focal-1969, Focal-1970, Focal >1.0b, etc), and style (preliminary, beta, released). > >I received a huge amount of original commented FOCAL source code/OP system >source code in many different formats [paper tapes, dectapes, floppies, rk05 >packs, etc..] from the DEC load. I hope to put the code online this year >but....what do you need? > >john > >PDP-8 and other rare mini computers > >http://www.pdp8.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: Kevin McQuiggin >To: Jon Andrews >Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Date: Thursday, February 03, 2000 10:35 PM >Subject: Re: Focal > > >>Hi Jon: >> >>I don't have the FOCAL source. I'm not sure it is available. Anyone >comment? >> >>Kevin >> >>At 03:32 PM 00/02/03 +0000, you wrote: >>>Do you have the original source code for focal....I've looked at the >>>focal.txt file, but i'd like to know how everything works >>> >>>JON >>> >>> >> >>--- >>Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD >>mcquiggi@sfu.ca >> > > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Feb 4 00:49:19 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000203193612.02ffbe40@ferrari.sfu.ca> References: <200002031631.LAA09423@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: At 7:36 PM -0800 2/3/00, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: >I too vote against embedded HTML in email. Give me the content, the fancy >formatting is superfluous. The only problem being that most of the people who post HTML have no clue they are doing it. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Feb 4 02:15:48 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: Allison J Parent "Re: regarding the reply address on the list...." (Feb 3, 20:16) References: <200002040116.UAA29452@world.std.com> Message-ID: <10002040815.ZM6441@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 3, 20:16, Allison J Parent wrote: > I had to edit the header again, or this reply would have gone to Eric. > > I checked what the mailer(RFDmail) at home does... Same thing it did > before. The last FROM: address it sees is the assumed reply address. In compliance with RFC 822. About the only thing that can legitimately override that is a "Reply-to:". I wonder why no-one has thought of simply swapping the "Sender:" and "From:" headers? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Feb 4 02:13:28 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed In-Reply-To: Glenatacme@aol.com "WD1770 help needed" (Feb 3, 22:53) References: <35.e3f778.25cba740@aol.com> Message-ID: <10002040813.ZM6437@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 3, 22:53, Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > Sadly, the WD1770 fcd IC in my home-brew fd i/o board finally gave up the > ghost. Fourteen years of service is admirable -- when it finally croaked, > I felt like weeping. > Does anyone know of a source for these? Or the 1772 (I believe Tony Duell > once mentioned that the 1772 could replace the 1770 in most cases -- but I > could be wrong). The 1772 was designed to be a plug-in replacement. The main (only?) difference is in the programmed step rates. > Also, I understand that the C64 floppy drives (1581?) used the 1770 but I'm > not a commie and can't immediately verify this. I'd be surprised if so. I thought all Commodore micros apart from their ill-fated PCs used GCR. There are plenty of list members who know much more about C= stuff than I do, though... Atari STs used the 1772, so that's another potential source. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Feb 4 08:20:11 2000 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #3 Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000204092011.007b0330@mail.wincom.net> >Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 09:14:09 -0500 >To: classiccmp@opal.tseinc.com (This address bounced) From: "Charles E. Fox" >Subject: Re: classiccmp-digest V1 #3 >In-Reply-To: <200002031957.NAA33069@opal.tseinc.com> > > > > Since the restart of classiccmp I have only been getting classiccmp-digest, not individual messages. This is really time consuming as I have to check the entire message and not just the header. Is this a feature of the new setup, or have I just been left off a list? > > Regards > > Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Feb 4 08:47:09 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: Focal sources Message-ID: <000204094709.21600494@trailing-edge.com> Kevin wrote: >>Do you have the original source code for focal....I've looked at the >>focal.txt file, but i'd like to know how everything works >>JON > >I don't have the FOCAL source. I'm not sure it is available. Anyone comment? The DECUS PDP-8 Focal sources (in PAL10) are available. FOCAL.PA begins with: /**** FOCAL 5/69 **** /E.A.TAFT - REVISION OF FOCALW 8/68 /EAT/ 25-JUL-72 /ASSEMBLY INSTRUCTIONS FOR DECUS VERSION: /INPUT FILES: / FOCAL.569 FOCAL LANGUAGE PROCESSOR / FLOAT.569 FLOATING POINT PACKAGE / EXTEND.569 EXTENDED FUNCTION PACKAGE / 2USER.569 2-USER OVERLAY What I have is in the "nickel" PDP-8 DECTAPE archive rescued by me from the University of Indiana several years ago. The Focal stuff, in particular, is on the web at: http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/focal/ If you were asking about FOCAL-10 (for a PDP-10), this is available on the web as well, from the home to all good software that's PDP-10 related: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0462/ If you want the PDP-11 (specifically, for RT-11) sources, you can find this at the Metalab.unc.edu PDP-11 archives as DECUS entry 11-0447. Go to http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ then go into the RT-11 archives, pick the "decus11" directory, and you'll see three 110477 directories (d1, d2, and d3), one for each original floppy. I also have much RSX and DOS-11 FOCAL stuff that's not indexed yet. I hope this helps. If none of these packages meets your needs, you might ask again for your specific platform(s). Enjoy! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Feb 4 09:11:14 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <000501bf6e91$599ae560$90e3dfd0@cobweb.net> References: <200002031655.LAA06708@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000204095612.00b4e160@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 04:55 PM 2/3/00 -0500, Bill Dawson said something like: -- snip -- >>>> somewhat different use may be of some help to "text message >>>> teleconferencing" groups equipped with automatic distribution >>>> services: include the address of that service in the "Reply- >>>> To" field of all messages submitted to the teleconference; >>>> then participants can "reply" to conference submissions to >>>> guarantee the correct distribution of any submission of their >>>> own. > > (emphasis mine). And that, I think ends this discussion. > > > >O.K. Valid argument. I now agree with those who wish to change back to the >*OLD* way. Most replies are directed back to the group anyway, not to >individuals. > >It's not a case of hardware, software, or means. It's more one of >functionality and purpose. The purpose should be to facilitate discussion >with the group and to disseminate information to the group. A replies to an >individuals directly is not the main purpose of CLASSICCMP as I see it. This is now the way I feel too Bill. I see the light: An important technical discussion kept private will not benefit the group as a whole nor benefit those researchers (ourselves and others) who try to find answers from the Archives and is essentially a Bad Thing. I feel the *OLD* way is preferable. We just gotta keep in mind that a reply intended to be private will automatically go to the whole list as it always had been before now. That's about the only significant problem with having an open forum as the old ClassicCmp setup had been. It would also relieve some of the significant problems that folks like Tony, Allison, et al. have just started having. I may even want to try using Pine or try telneting or try something else "classic" someday myself. It's true classic computer operation in a sense as opposed to this windoze stuff. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Feb 4 10:00:41 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: IBM card punches (was Re: Keydisc?) In-Reply-To: <20000203225816.8628.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000204102522.00b51dc0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 02:58 PM 2/3/00 -0800, Ethan Dicks said something like: >--- James Willing wrote: >> Well... while I don't have one (tho it would look kool next to my '029) > >You have an 029? I've got an 026 that is in need of some cleaning/adjusting. >Have you ever gone through the process? When we fire it up, not all the >right things happen when feeding a card from the hopper. -- snip -- > >Also, do you have a set of the leaf-spring force measurement thingies? I >need to aquire a set for the 026 and TTY adjustment, and have no idea where >to buy them. One source is Neuses Tools in the Chicago area http://www.pkneuses.com/. They specialize in tools for the telecommunications industry. They are a small speciallized company and are therefore a bit pricey but by golly they've got a selection of eight spring tension guage products from 0 - 10 grams up to 2000 grams range. Another real neat company who has a truly heavenly selection of tools for the precision craftsman/restorer/modelmaker is Small Parts Inc. at http://www.smallparts.com/. I've got their catalog and am extremely impressed by their selection of tools, supplies, books, resources and hard to find stuff contained within. In looking at it I hyperventilate at some of the goodies! :-) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From dastar at siconic.com Fri Feb 4 11:37:55 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: IBM parts to donate (fwd) Message-ID: This guy has an IBM 5360 (huge beast) to give to a good home. He also wants to trade PDP and VAX stuff. Please reply directly to the original sender. Reply-to: cureau@pcstarnet.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 08:41:03 -0500 From: Chris Cureau To: sellam@siconic.com Subject: IBM parts to donate Hi there. :-) I've got an IBM 5360, a 5224 printer and two 5291 terminals with keyboards. If you're interested, please let me know... I'm also looking for a few parts for projects I'm working on...specifically from PDPs and MicroVAXen. If you'd like to trade, let me know. :-) Cheers, Chris Cureau Pumpelly Oil Company (337) 625-1117 Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Feb 4 11:17:54 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: regarding the reply address on the list.... In-Reply-To: <10002040815.ZM6441@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > In compliance with RFC 822. About the only thing that can legitimately > override that is a "Reply-to:". I wonder why no-one has thought of simply > swapping the "Sender:" and "From:" headers? Ah, that would be true for most mailers... the one I use at home is a bit mroe creative. It's really a script that runs and interacts with unix mail and effectively collects mail by extracting it (header and all) and sending it via zmodem to the local system. Now the local software collects all this and creats an index plus an inbox. So, when I reply it parses the TEXT that has an attaced header and looks for the FROM: and uses that as the address. I can completely override that. Replied mails are effectively from my system not replied but new messages containing the old mail. It's flexible to the limits of the script portion but the rest of it is black box borland code. The author never released it even though it's shareware and he lives about 15miles away. Allison From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Feb 4 11:29:10 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: IBM parts to donate (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000204112910.01728180@pc> At 09:37 AM 2/4/00 -0800, DASTAR COM wrote: > >This guy has an IBM 5360 (huge beast) to give to a good home. He also >wants to trade PDP and VAX stuff. Please reply directly to the >original sender. He sent me a message, too. I guess this web-page donation-bait works. Below is the rest of the info that anyone would need to know. - John From: Chris Cureau X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (OS/2; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: John Foust Subject: Re: IBM 5360 Hey, John. I'm in Sulphur, Lousiana...it's near Lake Charles, about 30 miles east of the Texas border. When the system leaves, there will be no software loaded on the system, as I have been asked to wipe the drives. I know the disks for RPG II and the operating system are here, as well as other boxes full of disks and manuals. When I mentioned moving the machine, I mentioned the word 'donation', and I believe that is what upper management is expecting. I'd much rather give it to someone who wants it than give it to a scrapper... Let me know what you think. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Feb 4 12:36:10 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: Last Find Message-ID: <200002041737.SAA06038@mail2.siemens.de> Well, beside the anoying new headers there's still a CC-life (Ommmm :). As of my last stopover in the new world, I aquired a Tandy DT-1. Quite a cute pice of hardware. For the uninformed (as I have been until someone offered it to me via mail) it's basicly a Tandy Model III/IV case build as a Terminal. The Keyboard is a bit different labeled (of course), and the latch closing the empty FD slots is different than the one used on FD less M3/4 (suprise). Mine is working fine (except the A key), I just miss any kind of documentation at all. I'd apreciate any hint where to find more info or maybe manuals. A quick web search turned nothing up. Gruss H. A missing Reply-to header is a fool proof way to loose contact with your friends. From west at tseinc.com Fri Feb 4 12:46:37 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: test reply-to - please ignore Message-ID: <009c01bf6f40$2ad42700$d402a8c0@tse.com> testing the reply-to configuration. Please ignore From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Feb 4 13:43:37 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: <20000204194337.13601.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Feb 3, 22:53, Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > > > Sadly, the WD1770 fcd IC in my home-brew fd i/o board finally gave up the > > ghost. > The 1772 was designed to be a plug-in replacement. The main (only?) > difference is in the programmed step rates. I am looking at a WDC-1772. It has 28 pins. Doesn't the 1770 have 40 pins? > > Also, I understand that the C64 floppy drives (1581?) used the 1770 but > > I'm not a commie and can't immediately verify this. > > I'd be surprised if so. I thought all Commodore micros apart from their > ill-fated PCs used GCR. The standard 5.25" drives _do_ use GCR for all native formats, but the later stuff (1570/1571) also do MFM for CP/M compatibility. The aforementioned 1581 is a 3.5" device (~720K; the not-released 1591 was ~1.44Mb) and does have some form of MFM-capable chip, AFAIK. You can read 1581 disks in other machines, Linux included, I think. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From west at tseinc.com Fri Feb 4 13:54:36 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: test reply-to - please ignore References: <009c01bf6f40$2ad42700$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: <00ae01bf6f49$aa07d900$d402a8c0@tse.com> The is a reply to a new (OLD style) list traffic. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jay West To: Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 12:46 PM Subject: test reply-to - please ignore > testing the reply-to configuration. Please ignore > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Feb 4 14:01:37 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <20000204200137.16295.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> In going through and sorting my piles of classic ICs, I ran across this Western Digital WD2793A chip. What is it? Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Feb 4 15:01:43 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: test reply-to - please ignore In-Reply-To: <00ae01bf6f49$aa07d900$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: <200002042002.VAA04452@mail2.siemens.de> > Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Thank you very much Jay Hans -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 4 14:18:26 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:24 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? References: <20000204200137.16295.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0002041518550F.00208@vault.neurotica.com> On Fri, 04 Feb 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: >In going through and sorting my piles of classic ICs, I ran across this Western >Digital WD2793A chip. What is it? I believe that's a floppy controller. Not a terribly ancient one, though.. -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 4 13:05:38 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: To anybody & everybody who needs to rebuild their Macintosh Portable batteries. Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 727 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000204/f44fe1f1/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 4 13:15:41 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1621 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000204/513f97ba/attachment-0001.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Feb 4 13:46:12 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? In-Reply-To: <20000204200137.16295.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> (message from Ethan Dicks on Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:01:37 -0800 (PST)) References: <20000204200137.16295.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000204194612.22552.qmail@brouhaha.com> > In going through and sorting my piles of classic ICs, I ran across this > Western Digital WD2793A chip. What is it? It's a later replacement for the 1793 FDC. But not a drop-in replacement. It has an on-board analog data separator, while the 1793 required an external data separator. Some of the other 179x replacements had better digital data separators. I've personally always had good luck using the 179x with external SMC 9216 or 9229 data separators, which are probably hard to get by now. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 4 14:25:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed In-Reply-To: <20000204194337.13601.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 4, 0 11:43:37 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 972 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000204/1c7d09b1/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 4 14:27:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? In-Reply-To: <20000204200137.16295.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 4, 0 12:01:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 446 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000204/f3c636e6/attachment-0001.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Feb 4 14:34:31 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: WD1770 help needed" (Feb 4, 11:43) References: <20000204194337.13601.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10002042034.ZM6814@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 4, 11:43, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > > The 1772 was designed to be a plug-in replacement. The main (only?) > > difference is in the programmed step rates. > > I am looking at a WDC-1772. It has 28 pins. Doesn't the 1770 have 40 pins? No, you're thinking of a 1790. 1770 and 1772 are both 28-pin devices. There's also a 1772-2 which is just a mask revision of the 1772, and a 1772-2-2 which can run faster. Ataris sometimes have the latter. > The standard 5.25" drives _do_ use GCR for all native formats, but the later > stuff (1570/1571) also do MFM for CP/M compatibility. The aforementioned 1581 > is a 3.5" device (~720K; the not-released 1591 was ~1.44Mb) and does have some > form of MFM-capable chip, AFAIK. You can read 1581 disks in other machines, > Linux included, I think. I didn't know that. Did Commodore machines use a standard controller to write the MFM, or did they use the same techniques as for the GCR? I know Amigas can read/write DOS disks, but they don't have any sort of standard controller. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 4 14:40:29 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: A good way to find out what all those pesky IC's are Message-ID: <20000204204029.65397.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, I don't work for them or get any money for telling the list about it or anything like that, but I found http://www.icmaster.com and it works most of the time. It's best used to look up chips made by companies that are still in business, though. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Feb 4 14:38:52 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: test reply-to - please ignore References: <009c01bf6f40$2ad42700$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: <389B38DC.D4FA1133@idirect.com> >Jay West wrote: > testing the reply-to configuration. Please ignore Jerome Fine replies: This version works just like the old one - if that is your intent? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 4 14:46:19 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <000c01bf6f50$e8859a80$0400c0a8@winbook> That's correct, Eric, it's a direct replacement, functionally, for the 1793, with an analog clock extraction circuit. It has the limitation that the analog clock processing circuit requires a different lowpass filter for 8" and 5-1/4" drives, and, IIRC for FM or MFM. The 9216 and 9229 are external clock recovery circuits tailored for the 179x series, but can be replaced with a PAL. The 8-pin 9216 is pretty handy, but doesn't handle the write-precompensation which the 20-pin (?) 9229 does. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 1:46 PM Subject: Re: What's a WD2793A chip? >> In going through and sorting my piles of classic ICs, I ran across this >> Western Digital WD2793A chip. What is it? > >It's a later replacement for the 1793 FDC. But not a drop-in replacement. >It has an on-board analog data separator, while the 1793 required an external >data separator. > >Some of the other 179x replacements had better digital data separators. >I've personally always had good luck using the 179x with external >SMC 9216 or 9229 data separators, which are probably hard to get by now. From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Feb 4 14:53:58 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: Reply To: change Message-ID: Thank you Jay and Derek... it's my opinion that the List is better served by having the replies redirected back to itself. Now, about that HTML filter... Cheers John From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 4 14:58:51 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: <001101bf6f52$a4951ba0$0400c0a8@winbook> If you love your old drives, you'll operate the stepper at it's optimum rate, which should be essentially noise-free. If you can hear your drives, you need to tweak the step rate, usually upward. One alternative is to ad a mux or whatever to change the speed to the FDC when the step pulses are being transmitted, as nothing else is happening then. Many drives need rates somewhat faster than what the standard controller issues, hence, it's a good idea to consider a fix, involving clock selection via the to match the drive select. In the case of the 1771 and 179x series it's possible to build a really neat circuit I've seen but never tried to match, which uses the /TEST pin on the FDC to cause the device to put out its pulses much faster, allowing them to be accumulated externally in a counter, which, drives a DAC which drives a VCO, which drives the counter as it downcounts the number of steps, thereby slewing the head assembly. This could lead to an interesting but lengthy discussion. The point is that if you want your drives to suffer the least possible wear from off-rate stepping, you'll do SOMETHING to reduce vibration due to an incorrect step rate. The vibration is on the same axis as the eventual misalignment that will result. None of this applies to the 1770/1772, which have reasonbly fast but not fast enough step rates. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 1:41 PM Subject: WD1770 help needed >> Hello all >> >> Sadly, the WD1770 fcd IC in my home-brew fd i/o board finally gave up the >> ghost. Fourteen years of service is admirable -- when it finally croaked, I >> felt like weeping. >> >> Additionally, in violation of my policy of *always* keeping spares of >> discontinued components which I use -- I have no spare. >> >> Does anyone know of a source for these? Or the 1772 (I believe Tony Duell >> once mentioned that the 1772 could replace the 1770 in most cases -- but I >> could be wrong). > >The 1772 appears to be identical to the 1770 apart from the step rates it >uses. If your drives can take said higher rates, then the 1772 will work >in your controller. > >The 1772 (although not the 1770) was, I believe, second-sourced by VLSI >(the company that made most of the ARM chips), as it was used in Acorn >Archimedes machines. The 1770 was used in later version of the BBC micro. > >The 1772 (I think) was used in Atari STs. > >I am not suggesting you raid a working example of any of these machines >for the chip, but maybe somebody has a dead ST with a working 1772 or >something. > >> >> Also, I understand that the C64 floppy drives (1581?) used the 1770 but I'm >> not a commie and can't immediately verify this. Anyone out there with junk >> C64 drives who wants to liberate this IC -- to a good home?? >> > >The 1570 and 1571 (5.25" CBM drives that could read GDR and MFM disks) >have a 1770 in them. Older CBM drives (1541, PET 5.25" drives) do not. I >don't know about the 1581. > >Again, I'd not want to raid a working unit for the chip. But if you have >a broken drive, it's a possible source. > >-tony > From donm at cts.com Fri Feb 4 15:01:51 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: TRS Model 2/16 keyboard Message-ID: I have a chap who is trying to resurrect a Model 16 that is sans keyboard. Does anyone have one that they can spare? - don From aek at spies.com Fri Feb 4 15:33:01 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: <200002042133.NAA27309@spies.com> "In the case of the 1771 and 179x series it's possible to build a really neat circuit I've seen but never tried to match, which uses the /TEST pin on the FDC to cause the device to put out its pulses much faster, allowing them to be accumulated externally in a counter, which, drives a DAC which drives a VCO, which drives the counter as it downcounts the number of steps, thereby slewing the head assembly. This could lead to an interesting but lengthy discussion. " Sounds like an ideal candidate for reimplementation in a single chip microcontroller. From elvey at hal.com Fri Feb 4 15:49:40 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? In-Reply-To: <000c01bf6f50$e8859a80$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <200002042149.NAA15717@civic.hal.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > That's correct, Eric, it's a direct replacement, functionally, for the 1793, > with an analog clock extraction circuit. It has the limitation that the > analog clock processing circuit requires a different lowpass filter for 8" > and 5-1/4" drives, and, IIRC for FM or MFM. Hi I have a iSBX card that I wrote a driver for that uses a 2793. It is software compatable with the 1793. It does 1.44M disk with the right clock. What I'd like to know is what are the software requirements for a 1781? Dwight From aek at spies.com Fri Feb 4 15:53:23 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: How many mistakes can YOU spot in this eBay ad? Message-ID: <200002042153.NAA28604@spies.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=253429580 Does anyone on the list even HAVE a working FPS-xxxx (any flavor) ? These have to be the white elephants of the 80's computing world. --al (who used an FPS-100 in the early 80's) From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Feb 4 16:01:32 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: C= disks (was Re: WD1770 help needed) Message-ID: <20000204220133.21065.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Feb 4, 11:43, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > The standard 5.25" drives _do_ use GCR for all native formats... > > I didn't know that. Did Commodore machines use a standard controller to > write the MFM, or did they use the same techniques as for the GCR? WD177x, AFAIK, in the 1570 (single-sided) and 1571 (double-sided) 5.25" disks and the 1581 (3.5") drive. > I know Amigas can read/write DOS disks, but they don't have any sort of > standard controller. Right. They can do MFM, GCR or whatever because the diskette interface is distributed amongst several custom chips including a 4096-bit shift register in the sound chip. The Amiga reads and writes an entire track at once and parses it in memory. The MFM stuff is efficient because it uses the masking logic of the graphic chip to convert MFM to binary and back. With a simple adapter, you can attach Macintosh drives to the Amiga and read/write _those_ as well (800K with a Mac drive, and 1.44Mb if your Amiga has a C= half-speed floppy drive). There is a read-only demo version of the Mac driver available, read-write is commercial software. There's even a floppy-based network for the Amiga, but it's around $100 per node. I was just at the web page for it this week. RG-58 cable, bus topology, and you can still have three floppy drives on the computer as well. It's great for those bitty-boxes that have no slots. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Feb 4 16:03:36 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: More C= disks (was Re: WD1770 help needed) Message-ID: <20000204220336.6239.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > This is not really an OS issue. The PC disk controller can do MFM (and > some versions can do FM) recording. In other words, if the 1581 uses MFM > recording then most likely a PC controller can read its disks. If it uses > GCR, then it can't _no matter what OS is in use_. I meant that ISTR there is a utility that understands the 1581 filesystem for Linux, as well as the hardware being able to read the raw format. Sorry for the ambiguity. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Feb 4 17:51:44 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20000203193612.02ffbe40@ferrari.sfu.ca> <200002031631.LAA09423@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000204185144.3cef289c@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:49 PM 2/3/00 -0800, Mike F. wrote: >At 7:36 PM -0800 2/3/00, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: >>I too vote against embedded HTML in email. Give me the content, the fancy >>formatting is superfluous. > >The only problem being that most of the people who post HTML have no clue >they are doing it. In other words, typical WinDozes users! They'll learn real quick if we all bounce their messages back to them! Joe > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Feb 4 17:59:52 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: Info needed: Eagle AVL S-100 computer Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000204185952.3cef318e@mailhost.intellistar.net> HI, I found one of these today. I also found the keyboard, external floppy drive and monitor for. The "monitor" looks like it started life as a 8" security monitor. But I have to say that this is the first monitor that I've ever seen that was connected with a coaxial cable with N-connectors! It looks like this computer was designed to control an audio visual system. Can anyone tell me about the computer? I'm wondering if it's usefull for a general purpose S-100 computer. All the cards in it including the back plane are marked "AV". There are warranty stickers in it dated 1978 and it has an 8080 CPU. Does anyone have docs and software for it? Joe From west at tseinc.com Fri Feb 4 17:01:42 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST Message-ID: <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> Hokay... In my own opinion, most of the comments on the list about the reply-to function preferred the "old" method. A fair number of the people who preferred the "new" method have since publicly changed their mind. As a result, the list now has the reply address set to the list which is how it used to be before the move. I'd be happy to take any criticism for my handling of the situation: send those emails to dev-null@tseinc.com For the non-unix non-sendmail oriented on the list, that's a joke, don't bother sending. Now that the major issue appears to be resolved, I'm taking requests on any other list behaviour that people don't like. I don't promise to implement all of them, but I'll gladly take a look at it. Quite a few people sent me... er.... "suggestions", but because of all the flurry of activity related to the "reply-to" dilemma I didn't do a good job of tracking those other requests. Here's what I can remember: 1) verify that digests are being built 2) check if the digests are sent automagically or does the list owner have to "goose" them out 3) if they can be done automagically, get input from the digest users as to how often they want them sent 4) Verify that digest people are on the digest list, not the non-digest list 5) See if users can be allowed to send to the list without getting daily traffic If you have anything to add to the above, please DO send in the request to west@tseinc.com Regards, Jay West From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 4 17:59:29 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <001501bf6f6b$e24f60e0$0400c0a8@winbook> A 1781? !!GAWD!! I've not seen even an oblique reference to that number since back in the '70's. Wasn't that the one that died with MMFM? I don't believe I ever saw one in the "flesh." Nevertheless, the difference between it and any other member of the WD 8"-drive-capable controller line is probably pretty minor. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 3:09 PM Subject: Re[2]: What's a WD2793A chip? >"Richard Erlacher" wrote: >> That's correct, Eric, it's a direct replacement, functionally, for the 1793, >> with an analog clock extraction circuit. It has the limitation that the >> analog clock processing circuit requires a different lowpass filter for 8" >> and 5-1/4" drives, and, IIRC for FM or MFM. > >Hi > I have a iSBX card that I wrote a driver for that uses a >2793. It is software compatable with the 1793. It does >1.44M disk with the right clock. What I'd like to >know is what are the software requirements for a 1781? >Dwight > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Feb 4 17:44:14 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? In-Reply-To: <000c01bf6f50$e8859a80$0400c0a8@winbook> (edick@idcomm.com) References: <000c01bf6f50$e8859a80$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000204234414.24029.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > The 9216 and 9229 are external clock recovery circuits tailored for the 179x > series, but can be replaced with a PAL. The 8-pin 9216 is pretty handy, but > doesn't handle the write-precompensation which the 20-pin (?) 9229 does. I've often thought that a PAL or small CPLD would do the job. Has anyone written the appropriate state machine or equations? From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 4 18:33:34 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: How many mistakes can YOU spot in this eBay ad? In-Reply-To: <200002042153.NAA28604@spies.com> from "Al Kossow" at Feb 04, 2000 01:53:23 PM Message-ID: <200002050033.QAA02814@shell1.aracnet.com> > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=253429580 > > Does anyone on the list even HAVE a working FPS-xxxx (any flavor) ? > These have to be the white elephants of the 80's computing world. > > --al (who used an FPS-100 in the early 80's) > Oh, one BLINDING error. Wouldn't that hook up to a VAX? I passed on one about a year ago, and a lot of parts. Though I might have gotten some software for it in the mess of DEC stuff that I did get. Zane From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Fri Feb 4 18:54:09 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: Macintosh Portable battery rebild follow-up. Message-ID: <20000205005409.85907.qmail@hotmail.com> This posting is a follow up to my Mac Portable battery post: The cost of the individual 2V 5.0 Ah "Cyclon" size "X" is $7.25 (USD). The total for 3 is $25 (USD), not including s&h charges. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Feb 4 18:57:34 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <200002050057.TAA13841@world.std.com> "In the case of the 1771 and 179x series it's possible to build a really ne drive and monitor for. The "monitor" looks like it started life as a 8" "I've often thought that a PAL or small CPLD would do the job. Has anyone written the appropriate state machine or equations? " >From memory, didn't the Furgusson 'big board' use a digital data separator that was a bipolar prom state machine? I know I've seen this same design in several late 70's floppy controller boards (maybe it was even in the WDC data sheets) From aek at spies.com Fri Feb 4 19:06:08 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: How many mistakes can YOU spot in this eBay ad? Message-ID: <200002050106.RAA06698@spies.com> "Oh, one BLINDING error. Wouldn't that hook up to a VAX? I passed on one about a year ago, and a lot of parts. Though I might have gotten some software for it in the mess of DEC stuff that I did get. " ..or a Unibus PDP-11. What kind was it? I have some docs on the FPS-100. I keep meaning to stop over at the Physiology Department of the Medical College of Wisconsin to find out what ever happened to that 11/44 and FPS-100 that I used to take care of.. From elvey at hal.com Fri Feb 4 19:09:44 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? In-Reply-To: <200002050057.TAA13841@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200002050109.RAA18261@civic.hal.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > > Take a 1793 and put some of the stuff needed to make it useful on the die, > call it 2793. Basically it's a 1793 with data sep and precomp logic built > on. Hi Anyhow, if anyone wants the schematic for the iSBX card I have with the 2793, I can trace it out for someone. Just let me know. It has all of about 4 chips. Dwight From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Feb 4 19:29:58 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST In-Reply-To: "Jay West" "Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST" (Feb 4, 17:01) References: <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 4, 17:01, Jay West wrote: > Now that the major issue appears to be resolved, I'm taking requests on > any other list behaviour that people don't like. I don't promise to > implement all of them, but I'll gladly take a look at it. My request-for-enhancement is: "do something" about HTML, or better still, "do something" about any "multipart/alternative" posting (which would include M$ richtext, with those application/ms-tnef attachments). Options I can think of: a) silently discard any such postings (probably not a good idea) b) bounce them back to the author, with an explanation of why bounced c) remove the non-text part d) combination of (b) and (c) e) accept, but warn the author (who may not realise (s)he's sent HTML) All of these would involve scanning the content to a greater or lesser extent. I've no idea how doable that would be with majordomo, whether the extra processing is acceptable to the server, or whether Jay has the time to do that. Just for information, some of these policies are implemented on our helpdesk at work, which automatically tracks, redirects, and archives user support enquiries. We implement (e) on the first "offence", and (b) thereafter, but since every incoming email is read by a human, we do it by paw and memory, and occasionally discretion (ie we tend to discard fewer mails from professors than students :-)). We also have a policy of discarding attachments (or indeed any message) by simple automated truncation at the 10-kilobyte mark (mainly to prevent filling mailboxes and archives with "why doesn't this 4Mb PostScript/JPEG/Word document print?"). I think the record idiocy was a 63MB Word document ("I can't send this document to my friend. Why?") -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From generic3 at home.com Fri Feb 4 20:07:58 2000 From: generic3 at home.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: Ambra Laptop - hard drive In-Reply-To: <35.e3f778.25cba740@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000204210647.00999d80@popmail.voicenet.com> I have an Ambra Laptop with a dead hard drive. Does anyone know what I need for a replacement and where to get it. ------------------------------------------------------ On-Line Computer & Video Game Garage Sale http://www.voicenet.com/~generic gene@ehrich.com generic3@home.com Gene Ehrich From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Feb 4 20:04:48 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST In-Reply-To: <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> (pete@dunnington.u-net.com) References: <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20000205020448.24621.qmail@brouhaha.com> Pete Turnbull writes: > Options I can think of: > > a) silently discard any such postings (probably not a good idea) > b) bounce them back to the author, with an explanation of why bounced > c) remove the non-text part > d) combination of (b) and (c) > e) accept, but warn the author (who may not realise (s)he's sent HTML) > > All of these would involve scanning the content to a greater or lesser > extent. For options a and b, only the header needs to be examined. If there is a Content-Type header that specifies anything other than text/plain, or if there is a Content-Transfer-Encoding other than 7bit (or perhaps quoted-printable, although that generally sucks also), the message should be discarded or bounced. In particular, this would discard or bounce any messages whose Content-Type is multipart/mixed. If people want to supply files to the list, it should be done by providing a URL, or by private email. No attachments should be sent to the list. IMNSHO. :-) From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 4 21:08:28 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: <003a01bf6f86$476d27e0$0400c0a8@winbook> It could be a microcontroller project, but it's easy enough if you use a relatively small CPLD. What's critical is that you need a VCO or some digital analog to it which causes the counters to run more quickly while the beginning track to ending track difference is large and ramps up slower than it ramps down. I'd not depend on that, since each drive will be different. It's best done, IMHO, if one uses a drive-resident circuit with slew rates tuned to the individual drive. Thos of us who can't remanufacture our drives NEED this in order to make our 8" drives stay well. I microcontroller could handle the job fine if it just could be adjusted with a pot rather than having to have parameters experimentally determined and then fit via cut-and-try. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 2:51 PM Subject: Re: WD1770 help needed >"In the case of the 1771 and 179x series it's possible to build a really neat >circuit I've seen but never tried to match, which uses the /TEST pin on the >FDC to cause the device to put out its pulses much faster, allowing them to >be accumulated externally in a counter, which, drives a DAC which drives a >VCO, which drives the counter as it downcounts the number of steps, thereby >slewing the head assembly. This could lead to an interesting but lengthy >discussion. >" > >Sounds like an ideal candidate for reimplementation in a single chip >microcontroller. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 4 21:09:03 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: <003b01bf6f86$5c051140$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, I've considered that, but . . . there's a delay involved that wouldn't work with WD's chips unless you accumulate the pulses and disable ready. Then mask the delays by extending the head-load delay. Remember, every drive is different. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 6:12 PM Subject: Re: WD1770 help needed >"In the case of the 1771 and 179x series it's possible to build a really ne >< > >Did that many years ago using 8748, worked very good too as I could count >the pulses then issue them out as a ramped rate so that the head was >accelerated and decelerated to the track. Didn't make any difference for >a few track move. Head movement that was about 15 tracks or more it was >very noticeable. CP/M does a lot of seek to the directory track (usually >track one or two) every time it writes an extent or closes/opens a file so >decreases in seek time payed nicely. > >Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 4 21:16:24 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <004401bf6f87$62d72c00$0400c0a8@winbook> The Feruson BIg Board ( of which I have a bunch) was single-density only, for which clock extraction was dirt simple. MFM requires a gentler hand. It was, as you suggest, straight from the WD App Notes. The Big Board-II used the 9216. Back in those days, there was a big fight between the analog guys and the digit-heads, and it didn't help a thing. It got me paid for designs that were never implemented on more than one occasion, even though my meticulously designed and carefully stolen and tested, then improved digital separators worked much faster and better than the analog ones. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 6:18 PM Subject: Re: What's a WD2793A chip? >"I've often thought that a PAL or small CPLD would do the job. Has anyone >written the appropriate state machine or equations? >" > >From memory, didn't the Furgusson 'big board' use a digital data separator >that was a bipolar prom state machine? I know I've seen this same design in >several late 70's floppy controller boards (maybe it was even in the WDC >data sheets) From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 4 21:22:11 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <004c01bf6f88$317bde20$0400c0a8@winbook> Be careful what you assume about this chip. As I wrote before, the external lowpass filter is different for different data rates, so if you want to use both 5-1/4" and 8" drives, (and the 3-1/2" ones that look like 8") then you need two lowpass filters. These can be hooked up very simply today as there are analog multiplexors with on the order of 1 ohm of on-resistance, though back then it was necessary to use relatively costly low-on-resistance D-mos switches. I very much prefer the digital approach, which, then, was the only real alternative. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 6:23 PM Subject: Re: What's a WD2793A chip? >Allison J Parent wrote: >> >> > > >> Take a 1793 and put some of the stuff needed to make it useful on the die, >> call it 2793. Basically it's a 1793 with data sep and precomp logic built >> on. > >Hi > Anyhow, if anyone wants the schematic for the iSBX card >I have with the 2793, I can trace it out for someone. >Just let me know. It has all of about 4 chips. >Dwight > From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Feb 4 21:57:32 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: HTML in Email Message-ID: In a message dated 02/03/2000 10:47:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, mcquiggi@sfu.ca writes: > I too vote against embedded HTML in email. Give me the content, the fancy > formatting is superfluous. I second the motion. Most usenet groups will savagely attack anyone posting binaries or html, and so it should be, here. If God had meant for us to read html, we would be born with browsers built-in. Glen 0/0 From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Feb 4 22:41:33 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: In a message dated 02/04/2000 3:02:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, ethan_dicks@yahoo.com writes: > I am looking at a WDC-1772. It has 28 pins. Doesn't the 1770 have 40 pins? I am looking at a (dead) WD1770 and it's a 28 pin DIP. Glen 0/0 From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Feb 4 22:48:39 2000 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed Message-ID: <13.fed63b.25cd05a7@aol.com> In a message dated 02/04/2000 3:34:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > The 1772 appears to be identical to the 1770 apart from the step rates it > uses. If your drives can take said higher rates, then the 1772 will work > in your controller. Thanks for the information, Tony. Upgrading the drives is not a problem since I have access to many types of drives. In fact, I recently had some trouble finding a drive *ancient* enough to work with the 1770 i/f. Glen 0/0 From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Fri Feb 4 15:58:02 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: <200001262244218.SM00188@kernst> Message-ID: <02e001bf6f97$080d56e0$2ee993c3@proteus> Hi Kevin, >....I picked up a lot of cool stuff, but the real prize was an >HP model 45851A (I think) 'Touchscreen II,' a.k.a HP 150C. Nice find. >....But I don't think anyone in the company still has the disk >media. I can't imagine there being any other options besides >the HP version of MS-DOS that it shipped with.... I can send you a Teledisk image of the DOS disc if you need one. Other than that I have no software for the machine. Hardware options included several different RAM boards, one with built in HP-IL interface, various floppy/hard drive units and the touch screen itself (I've NEVER seen a machine with the touch screen BTW). Do you have some form of drive unit for the machine? Without one all you have is a dumb terminal.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 5 00:34:13 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: WD1770 help needed In-Reply-To: <13.fed63b.25cd05a7@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000205013413.307fbb02@mailhost.intellistar.net> Glen, At 11:48 PM 2/4/00 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 02/04/2000 3:34:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, >ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > >> The 1772 appears to be identical to the 1770 apart from the step rates it >> uses. If your drives can take said higher rates, then the 1772 will work >> in your controller. > >Thanks for the information, Tony. Upgrading the drives is not a problem >since I have access to many types of drives. In fact, I recently had some >trouble finding a drive *ancient* enough to work with the 1770 i/f. What kind of "ancient" drives are you looking for? I scrounge up old drives all the time. I found nine hh Mitsubishi 8" floppy drives a few weeks ago and an 8" Quantum hard drive last week. I found a power supply and the connectors for a pair of 8" floppy drives today. Joe > >Glen >0/0 > From whdawson at mlynk.com Sat Feb 5 00:04:49 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? Message-ID: <000c01bf6f9e$e9220520$a8e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Does anyone have any information on this item, a "Prometrix Omnimap 11" in what looks to be a VT-100 case? It's currently for sale on eBay, item 246642084. What was this used for? What OS or Application does it run? Is software available out there from anyone on this list? Was this equipment made entirely by DEC, or does it have modifications made by a reseller? What is this thing really worth? I know, lots of questions! Any answers? Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 00:45:14 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000204222906.01ba1460@mcmanis.com> I have a very perplexing problem. What I want to do is mount a Seagate ST410800N on a VMS 5.4-1 system. The hardware is a VAX 4000/300 with an Emulex UC-08-III controller half of which is in MSCP mode. (the other half is talking to the tape drive) There are two existing 1GB (Imprimis) drives on this system. First attempt: Put the drive into the SCSI chain, terminate it correctly, drives are targets 0, 1, and 2. The new drive is now target 0, the others are moved to 1 and 2. I reset the VAX and get into the Emulex firmware (rev 'M' (changed to 'R' later, see below)) and try to autoconfigure the drives. The two 1GB drives show up like they should, the 9GB drive shows up as a 500MB drive. Weird. Second attempt: Replace the firmware in the Emulex with version 'R'. Attempt to reconfigure, same problem as #1. Third attempt: Attempt to manually specify the geometry and notice that the Seagate is reporting it has 4925 cylinders but the prompt says the number has to be between 20 and 4095. I enter a number smaller than 4095 and say 'OK'. Now the drive shows up as having 14x10E6 blocks! Ok so now we're getting somewhere but I forgot to configure the other two. Fourth Attempt: Recompute "Fake" heads/sectors numbers so that by using 4094 cylinders I get close to the drives 17,845,431 blocks. Configure the two 1GB drives with all the defaults. Seagate drive shows up as a 1/2 G drive again. On a whim I subtract the number of blocks shown from what it should be, the result is in the 16x10E6 range, aha! I say. Fifth Attempt: Recompute cylinder/sector/head numbers so that the total will be less than 2^24-1 blocks. This works and I end up with a controller that thinks the drive is about 8GB in size (I could live with this for now...). So we go all the way up to VMS. In VMS I type 'INIT DUA0: TEST' and it fails with "%INIT-F-CLUSTER unsuitable cluster factor", I drill down through the help files but there doesn't seem to be a comment on this. It talks about VAX clusters and CLUSTER_SIZE which I tried setting to higher numbers (like 10 or 16). But nothing has worked so far. My questions then are: 1) Is there a way to get the Emulex controller to recognize more that 2^24 blocks on a SCSI drive? 2) Does VMS have a volume size limit in 5.4-1 that I need to know about? 3) If I "split" the volume on the Emulex into two logical drives, can the sum of the logical drive sizes be greater than 8GB? Curious minds want to know! --Chuck (Who is enjoying VMS for the time being ... ;-)) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 00:56:18 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? In-Reply-To: <000c01bf6f9e$e9220520$a8e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000204225355.01af58f0@mcmanis.com> It is the LSI-11 built into a VT100 thingy (a PDT-11?) The cards are from left to right: LSI=11/03 processor, RQDXn disk controller, Memory (looks like an M8044), serial port, and RX01 floppy controller. A cute system and well worth the dollar that is currently bid :-) --Chuck At 01:04 AM 2/5/00 -0500, you wrote: >Does anyone have any information on this item, a "Prometrix Omnimap 11" in >what looks to be a VT-100 case? It's currently for sale on eBay, item >246642084. What was this used for? What OS or Application does it run? Is >software available out there from anyone on this list? Was this equipment >made entirely by DEC, or does it have modifications made by a reseller? >What is this thing really worth? I know, lots of questions! Any answers? > >Bill > >whdawson@mlynk.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 5 01:45:08 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000204225355.01af58f0@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Feb 04, 2000 10:56:18 PM Message-ID: <200002050745.XAA11305@shell1.aracnet.com> > It is the LSI-11 built into a VT100 thingy (a PDT-11?) The cards are from > left to right: > LSI=11/03 processor, RQDXn disk controller, Memory (looks like an M8044), > serial port, and RX01 floppy controller. A cute system and well worth the > dollar that is currently bid :-) > --Chuck I think you me a VT103. I've got a system that looks close to this in my collection although it was turned into a plain VT100 prior to my getting it. I've got the parts though and plan to one day get it put all back together. The neat thing about the one on eBay is the disk box. Wondering just what exactly all those cards are though... Zane From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Feb 5 01:16:33 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000204185144.3cef289c@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.32.20000203193612.02ffbe40@ferrari.sfu.ca> <200002031631.LAA09423@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >>>I too vote against embedded HTML in email. Give me the content, the fancy >>>formatting is superfluous. >> >>The only problem being that most of the people who post HTML have no clue >>they are doing it. > > In other words, typical WinDozes users! They'll learn real quick if we Dozers are the ElItE, worry about @aol and @webtv or whatever it is. OTOH I would not be willing to bet that some user on this list hasn't entered a message via toggle switches in octal. ;) They are just the ones to use HTML to prove a point. Actually it sounds a bit easier than the method Allison is using now. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Feb 5 02:18:11 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? Message-ID: <20000205081811.15362.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck McManis wrote: > It is the LSI-11 built into a VT100 thingy (a PDT-11?) The cards are from > left to right: > LSI=11/03 processor, RQDXn disk controller, Memory (looks like an M8044), > serial port, and RX01 floppy controller. A cute system and well worth the > dollar that is currently bid :-) > --Chuck I see that you're the high bidder, or I'd probably bid on it myself (that, and I already have a VT103 and boxes of Qbus cards). What _I_ see there in the ad is an 11/23 CPU (KDF-11), some third party (floppy) controller (white handle - the RQDX3 has a 50-pin connector in the middle of a red handle; the RQDX1 and RQDX2 are quad-width), memory (perhaps an M8044, as you say), an IVB11 (IEEE-488) and a DJV11-J 4-port SIO card. Pretty standard stuff. Good luck on the box. I hope you get it. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Feb 5 02:23:52 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: PDP-11 sighting - "Sliders" pilot Message-ID: <20000205082352.8353.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, all, I happened to be watching the Sci Fi Channel tonight and caught the re- broadcast of the first "Sliders" episode. Quinn has a PDP-11 in his basement in San Francisco. It's blurry most of the time, but when he opens a worm hole for Wade and Prof. Arturo, the distortion effect brings the rack into visible clarity - it appears to be an RX01 or RX02 at the top of the rack, over a BA-11N box, CPU unknown. I'm not sure, but underneath the BA-11N, the narrow black vertical panels appear similar to the filler plates on a MINC-11 system, but that part of the rack wasn't shown as clearly. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From spc at armigeron.com Sat Feb 5 02:41:07 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Feb 04, 2000 11:16:33 PM Message-ID: <200002050841.DAA11126@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Mike Ford once stated: > > OTOH I would not be willing to bet that some user on this list hasn't > entered a message via toggle switches in octal. ;) They are just the ones > to use HTML to prove a point. Actually it sounds a bit easier than the > method Allison is using now. Actually, this isn't the first time this topic has come up on this list. The last time was .. wow! January of 1999 (hmmmm ... seasonal topic?). And last time, Chuck McManis wanted HTML: > Sheesh. Plain text really sucks. Y'all prefer that someone type _like this_ > to indicate a piece of underlined text? or my habit *bolding* with > asterisks? This message "encoded" with HTML is roughly 5% larger than it is > in plain text. Wow, now that's a waste of resources. I responded in kind (and also in Postscript, morse code, and uuencoded DVI). -spc (I wonder what complaints about email we'll be bitching, uh, discussing, next year?) From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Feb 5 03:12:53 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: Info needed: Eagle AVL S-100 computer Message-ID: <2b.17638f7.25cd4395@aol.com> Joe; I would ignore the AVL. Does anyone know if Eagle made a S100 computer? My bet is the computer is a generic S100 used to run multiple serial ports. However they could be custom controllers. AVL makes slide projector controllers for large slide shows. This sounds like a very early controller. What are the outputs on the AV cards? Could they conceivably drive Kodak Ektamatic or Carousel slide projectors? Slide projectors use 2, 5 or 7 wire/pin connectors. Some AVLs will control up to 12 slide projectors, usually in multiple of 3s (i.e., 3, 6, 9 or 12 projectors). Two of the wires control the power up and down on the light bulbs. If they did this directly there would have to be some serious power dissipation. AVL was an early adopter of computers. If I remember right Eagle made S100 computers before their crossover clones. This is my guess. Paxton From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Feb 5 03:27:24 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:25 2005 Subject: WTB: Multibus Cisco Ethernet cards Message-ID: <20000205092724.8531.qmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> If they aren't classic, they soon will be. I've got this ancient Cisco AGS+ router (68040-based) with Multibus and some kind of Cisco-proprietary slots inside. I have a quad V.35 card (useless to me because of the 26-pin high- density D-shell connectors and no cables). What I need is at least a dual Ethernet card. Whenever I ask my friends in networking, they always tell me the same story, "Oh, yeah. We used to have some of those, but we threw all that stuff out X months ago." So if all these folks have been throwing this sort of stuff out, I figure that *someone* on this list has seen the occasional item float by. Any and all leads are appreciated. I'm willing to pay in excess of 1.2 * shipping, but the sky is not the limit. Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Feb 5 03:56:54 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:26 2005 Subject: PDP-11 sighting - "Sliders" pilot Message-ID: <000205045654.25600ae9@trailing-edge.com> >I happened to be watching the Sci Fi Channel tonight and caught the re- >broadcast of the first "Sliders" episode. Quinn has a PDP-11 in his >basement in San Francisco. If I had to be able to interface to computers both 30 years in the past *and* 30 years in the future, I'd be sure to use my PDP-11 too :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Feb 5 07:29:33 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:26 2005 Subject: PDP-11 sighting - "Sliders" pilot In-Reply-To: <000205045654.25600ae9@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <13521272749.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [PDP-11s interface to anything?] Didn't get get called "the fastest UART in the west?" Or was that PDP-8s? ------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 5 07:09:52 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:26 2005 Subject: WTB: Multibus Cisco Ethernet cards References: <20000205092724.8531.qmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00020508332402.00857@vault.neurotica.com> On Sat, 05 Feb 2000, Ethan Dicks wrote: >If they aren't classic, they soon will be. I've got this ancient Cisco AGS+ >router (68040-based) with Multibus and some kind of Cisco-proprietary slots >inside. I have a quad V.35 card (useless to me because of the 26-pin high- >density D-shell connectors and no cables). What I need is at least a dual >Ethernet card. Whenever I ask my friends in networking, they always tell me >the same story, "Oh, yeah. We used to have some of those, but we threw all >that stuff out X months ago." > >So if all these folks have been throwing this sort of stuff out, I figure that >*someone* on this list has seen the occasional item float by. Any and all >leads are appreciated. I'm willing to pay in excess of 1.2 * shipping, but >the sky is not the limit. You know...strangely enough, that line of router hardware has pretty much been "artificially" obsoleted by cisco. I mean, not that such practices are all that unusual (the ss5/170 was discontinued how many months after it had been put into production? like four?) but despite their archaic physical appearance, the AGS+ is only now getting a bit "old" by today's [non-PC] standards. It's the immediate predecessor of the 7000, and is a good deal faster than the 7000 as well, assuming it's a later CSC4-equipped box..which is why cisco wants all the AGSs to go away so badly. There are still a good number of AGS+ routers in racks at peering points all over the world terminating big pipes, and that won't be changing anytime soon. Why? They work, and they seldom fail. The attitudes there are affected a little more by the telco industry and a little less by the PC industry. But in spite of that, I'm sure you'll get your hands on one from someone a little *more* affected (INfected?) by the PC industry, and win bigtime. I sure did! :-) There's a fellow I know in Sweden who does 64mb mods and clock speedup hacks on CSC4 boards regularly for those who don't feel like paying cisco's blood money for $60,000 monsters like the 75xx...'cause just about the only thing the AGS+ can't terminate is an OCn circuit. The last release of IOS that'll run on it is 11.1, more than modern enough for all but the most whiz-bang of routing "features". No krb5 in 11.1 though, bummer. So anyway, to my point...You should be able to get your hands on an AGS+ for a few hundred bucks anytime, if you don't want to wait for one to come down the pike. People rarely "throw them out" because cisco is (or at least was, it's been a year or so since I talked to anyone about it) vacuuming them up extremely thoroughly to keep people from (gasp!) using them. A friend of mine squeaked a handful of brand-new CSC4 boards out of cisco a while back...said they're kept under lock and key! I can just picture the cisco salesdroid..."hey, I'll give you 42% if you tell all your friends that you threw this in the trash...deal?" Anyway, sorry for being so long-winded this morning. I just woke up. Happy AGS hacking; they're really cool boxes! If you need images or stuff like that let me know. Oh yeah, and stay away from any processor board that's pre-CSC4. -Dave McGuire From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 5 08:41:23 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:26 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <02e001bf6f97$080d56e0$2ee993c3@proteus> References: <200001262244218.SM00188@kernst> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I have a bunch of programs for the HP 150 including several versions of MS_DOS. As you've probably figured out by now, the 150s aren't entirely IBM compatible. The programs for it should use only DOS calls, if they access the hardware directly then they have to modified to work with the 150. If your machine is a box with squared corners and the expansion cards are mounted vertical behind the monitor then it's a TouchScreen II. If the machine has nice rounded edges and the expansion cards are horizontal in the bottom then it's the original HP 150. The TS II has a 5 pin DIN connector in the back. That's used to provide power for a HP 9123 disk drive. The 150 and TS II can both use the HP 9121 and 9122 3.5" floppy disk drives. The 9121 is a single sided drive and the 9122 is a double sided drive. Both drives are AC powered. The HP 9123 drive is exactly the same as the 9122 except that it has no power supply and gets it's power from the TS II. You can connect it to an external power supply and use it on a 150 or any other HP machine that supports the 9122. The S verion of the drives only have a single drive but the D verson of the drives have dual drives. FWIW there is also a HP 9122C but it's scarce. The C is a quad density drive and is not compatible with the other 9122s. I don't think the 150 or TS-11 supports the 9122C. The Touch Screen feature is standard on the 150 but optional on the TS-II. Strange! I've never seen a Touch Screen on a TS-II. I don't think many buyers added it. Let me know if you have any specific questions. Joe At 09:58 PM 2/4/00 -0000, you wrote: >Hi Kevin, > > >....I picked up a lot of cool stuff, but the real prize was an > >HP model 45851A (I think) 'Touchscreen II,' a.k.a HP 150C. > >Nice find. > > > >....But I don't think anyone in the company still has the disk > >media. I can't imagine there being any other options besides > >the HP version of MS-DOS that it shipped with.... > >I can send you a Teledisk image of the DOS disc if you need one. Other than >that I have no software for the machine. > >Hardware options included several different RAM boards, one with built in >HP-IL interface, various floppy/hard drive units and the touch screen itself >(I've NEVER seen a machine with the touch screen BTW). > >Do you have some form of drive unit for the machine? Without one all you >have is a dumb terminal.... > > > TTFN - Pete. > >-- >Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. >Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > >peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk >-- > > > From lsommo at hotmail.com Sat Feb 5 09:30:34 2000 From: lsommo at hotmail.com (No Name) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:26 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <20000205153105.39042.qmail@hotmail.com> Wasn't there an add-on developed for the Xerox 820/ Big Board that used the 2793? As I recall it was a a simpler (and less expensive) circuit as compared to the other add-on being offered at the time. I had one and lost it (as well as my 256K memory expansion board) during the course of my moves. If anyone has the schematics for it I'd like to try and put another one together. Lou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/babb7f39/attachment-0001.html From edick at idcomm.com Sat Feb 5 09:46:55 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:26 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <001001bf6ff0$3bab9d00$0400c0a8@winbook> There may well have been one of these. I've got a one or two of the ones a Denver company made for the Xerox 820 to insert a 1791/95 in place of the 1771. I even have the writeup somewhere, but no software patches. It just seems that I never have both the mezzanine board and the doc at the same time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: No Name To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, February 05, 2000 8:49 AM Subject: Re: What's a WD2793A chip? Wasn't there an add-on developed for the Xerox 820/ Big Board that used the 2793? As I recall it was a a simpler (and less expensive) circuit as compared to the other add-on being offered at the time. I had one and lost it (as well as my 256K memory expansion board) during the course of my moves. If anyone has the schematics for it I'd like to try and put another one together. Lou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/92ba94c9/attachment-0001.html From emu at ecubics.com Sat Feb 5 10:09:32 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:26 2005 Subject: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST References: <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <011701bf6ff3$d27ac320$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 18:29 Subject: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST > My request-for-enhancement is: > > "do something" about HTML, or better still, "do something" about > any "multipart/alternative" posting (which would include M$ > richtext, with those application/ms-tnef attachments). > > Options I can think of: > > a) silently discard any such postings (probably not a good idea) > b) bounce them back to the author, with an explanation of why bounced > c) remove the non-text part > d) combination of (b) and (c) > e) accept, but warn the author (who may not realise (s)he's sent HTML) I like b) most. This sending of HTML, happens mostly to new members, (or to "old" users, which got a browser "update" ;-)) so they can see immediatly whats wrong, and we don't even see this email, so no reason for a new discussion about it AGAIN. ;-) just my $ .02 cheers, emanuel From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Feb 5 10:18:37 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:26 2005 Subject: FW: SURPLUS MINI COMPUTER (Perkin Elmer) Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000205081837.00b5e0a4@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: The new list seems to be working fine. Here's a message from a friend in the City of Vancouver. If you're interested, please contact Jim directly. There's a URL with more details. Kevin >Return-Path: >From: Jim Lloyd >To: "McQuiggin, Kevin" >Subject: SURPLUS MINI COMPUTER >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:47:09 -0800 > >Kevin, you had mentioned that you may have some intersted parties in the >attached machine. Here are some of the details. It is advertised on our web >site at www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/bid/SPS_00010.htm > >Thanks > > >"The City of Vancouver (Canada) has a Perkin Elmer mini computer for sale >that will be available for removal in approximately June 2000. This computer >will be in service until that date and has been used for operation of the >City+s Traffic Signal Management System. > > >Details: >Model 3210 CPU >2MB RAM >Model CDC50 - 50MB disc subsystem (two discs - one fixed, one removable) >Model 1175A tape subsystem (two drives - one 800 bpi, one 1600 bpi) 75inches >per second >75 CCU Winkomatic Modems with possible spares >10 Multiplexer cards (for modems) >Software not included" ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Feb 5 10:34:37 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:26 2005 Subject: PDP-11 sighting - "Sliders" pilot In-Reply-To: <20000205082352.8353.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000205083437.00b63f98@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: Vancouver is a popular venue for TV and movie filmmaking. I've spoken to prop folks locally and volunteered any of my systems should they have a show or movie that needs "old computers with spinning tapes and blinking lights". No bites (bytes) yet, but it would be neat to get one of my systems into a movie. I also have about 20 old radios from the 1920s-30s and have offered them for props as well. I'd suggest that others in movie-friendly locales also volunteer, it's a way of popularizing our hobby! Kevin At 12:23 AM 2/5/00 -0800, you wrote: > >Hi, all, > >I happened to be watching the Sci Fi Channel tonight and caught the re- >broadcast of the first "Sliders" episode. Quinn has a PDP-11 in his >basement in San Francisco. It's blurry most of the time, but when he >opens a worm hole for Wade and Prof. Arturo, the distortion effect brings >the rack into visible clarity - it appears to be an RX01 or RX02 at the top >of the rack, over a BA-11N box, CPU unknown. I'm not sure, but underneath >the BA-11N, the narrow black vertical panels appear similar to the filler >plates on a MINC-11 system, but that part of the rack wasn't shown as clearly. > >-ethan > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com > > ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Feb 5 10:36:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:26 2005 Subject: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? Message-ID: <200002051636.LAA28930@world.std.com> > method Allison is using now. Well... the telnet link makes me think the SR on a pretty 11/70 as faster way to do it. The local at home stuff is rather odd but actually very efficient as it's edit/compose/reply is all done off line then you deliver (also fetches then). It has many things going for it, one it leaves nothing on the ISP, the connect time is minimal, all headers are visible, being slightly brain dead all worms/viri/trojans _can_ be sent through it safely and files TEXT or UUE greater than 50k are saved to disk and the first 1024 chars displayed. the interface is windows/3.1 so it isn't that bad. <> Sheesh. Plain text really sucks. Y'all prefer that someone type _like thi <> to indicate a piece of underlined text? or my habit *bolding* with <> asterisks? This message "encoded" with HTML is roughly 5% larger than it <> in plain text. Wow, now that's a waste of resources. < < I responded in kind (and also in Postscript, morse code, and uuencoded ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 11:16:33PM -0800 References: <3.0.1.32.20000203193612.02ffbe40@ferrari.sfu.ca> <200002031631.LAA09423@dbit.dbit.com> <3.0.1.16.20000204185144.3cef289c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 11:16:33PM -0800, Mike Ford wrote: > OTOH I would not be willing to bet that some user on this list hasn't > entered a message via toggle switches in octal. ;) I still say that if people can mail me their MS-Word crap w/o asking first, I should be able to send "Content-Type: application/runoff" to them and let *them* be the ones to copy it through three systems to get it somewhere where they can read it legibly (if they have RUNOFF at all, if they don't, tough). So there! And of course "image/hpgl" too (with the pens loaded in some unusual order just to be a pain) for tacking 2 KB corporate logos onto every 300-character message. And if people insist on putting their card on the end of every message, it should be 80 columns wide and 12 rows tall (and mail the chad separately). Yeah, pcard instead of vcard! Well maybe not... John Wilson D Bit From mbg at world.std.com Sat Feb 5 11:01:05 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? Message-ID: <200002051701.MAA10375@world.std.com> >It is the LSI-11 built into a VT100 thingy (a PDT-11?) The cards are from >left to right: LSI=11/03 processor, RQDXn disk controller, Memory (looks >like an M8044), serial port, and RX01 floppy controller. A cute system >and well worth the dollar that is currently bid :-) --Chuck Sounds more like a VT103 case... definitely worth it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 12:41:00 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? In-Reply-To: <20000205081811.15362.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000205104027.015c4450@mcmanis.com> Feel free to bid on it, I just put a $10 bid on it to see what the reserve was (its more than $10 :-) --Chuck At 12:18 AM 2/5/00 -0800, you wrote: >--- Chuck McManis wrote: > > It is the LSI-11 built into a VT100 thingy (a PDT-11?) The cards are from > > left to right: > > LSI=11/03 processor, RQDXn disk controller, Memory (looks like an M8044), > > serial port, and RX01 floppy controller. A cute system and well worth the > > dollar that is currently bid :-) > > --Chuck > >I see that you're the high bidder, or I'd probably bid on it myself (that, >and I already have a VT103 and boxes of Qbus cards). > >What _I_ see there in the ad is an 11/23 CPU (KDF-11), some third party >(floppy) controller (white handle - the RQDX3 has a 50-pin connector in >the middle of a red handle; the RQDX1 and RQDX2 are quad-width), memory >(perhaps an M8044, as you say), an IVB11 (IEEE-488) and a DJV11-J 4-port >SIO card. Pretty standard stuff. > >Good luck on the box. I hope you get it. > >-ethan > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com From mac at Wireless.Com Sat Feb 5 13:18:55 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: I'd like to see a small tag be prefixed to the Subject: line so that it's easier to know that the email came from the Classic Computer list. I suggest the Majordomo "config" file include a line like this: subject_prefix = [ClassicCmp] or somesuch. That way, it's quite easy to sort on messages from this list both automatically, and, equally important, manually. I don't much care -exactly- what the subject_prefix ends up being, just some tag that uniquely identifies the message as coming from classiccmp. Thanks! -Mike From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 5 14:46:23 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: Info needed: Eagle AVL S-100 computer In-Reply-To: <2b.17638f7.25cd4395@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000205154623.495f5ab6@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:12 AM 2/5/00 EST, Paxton wrote: >Joe; > >I would ignore the AVL. Does anyone know if Eagle made a S100 computer? It appears that they did. See "http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/vallino/personal/bio.html". That's a job history of one of the guys that used to work for them. AVL decided to adopt computers early on in order to be able to change slides faster. It sounds like they didn't use the S-100 stuff very long before switching to the IBM PC. FWIW the case and all the cards in it appear to have been made by AVL. All of them have their logo on them and the case only has the required cut outs. My >bet is the computer is a generic S100 used to run multiple serial ports. That's what I was hoping that it was but it appears to be a custom job. For example, the ports on it are five pin DIN sockets. I've never seen them used on another S-100 computer. >However they could be custom controllers. FWIW it does appear that they used the S-100 bus. It does have the right connectors and the few pins that we traced out all seem to have the right voltages and signals on them. > >AVL makes slide projector controllers for large slide shows. This sounds like >a very early controller. What are the outputs on the AV cards? The "controller" output appears to be five 5 pin DIN sockets on the back. Only two of the sockets are used in this machine. The others are there but have never had wires soldered to them. Could they >conceivably drive Kodak Ektamatic or Carousel slide projectors? Very possibly. But I don't know anything about the controls for slide projectors so I can't say. I'm sure you'd need software to run them and that could be quite a problem to find. There is one disk with the drive but who knows what's on it. Slide >projectors use 2, 5 or 7 wire/pin connectors. Some AVLs will control up to 12 >slide projectors, usually in multiple of 3s (i.e., 3, 6, 9 or 12 projectors). > Two of the wires control the power up and down on the light bulbs. If they >did this directly there would have to be some serious power dissipation. AVL >was an early adopter of computers. > >If I remember right Eagle made S100 computers before their crossover clones. > >This is my guess. I think you're dead on. Joe >Paxton > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 5 15:02:26 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? In-Reply-To: <001001bf6ff0$3bab9d00$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000205160226.2f47d4c4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Richard, Exactly what was add-on supposed to do for the Xerox 820? Joe At 08:46 AM 2/5/00 -0700, Richard wrote: >There may well have been one of these. I've got a one or two of the ones a Denver company made for the Xerox 820 to insert a 1791/95 in place of the 1771. I even have the writeup somewhere, but no software patches. It just seems that I never have both the mezzanine board and the doc at the same time. > >Dick > -----Original Message----- > From: No Name > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Saturday, February 05, 2000 8:49 AM > Subject: Re: What's a WD2793A chip? > > > Wasn't there an add-on developed for the Xerox 820/ Big Board that used the 2793? As I recall it was a a simpler (and less expensive) circuit as compared to the other add-on being offered at the time. I had one and lost it (as well as my 256K memory expansion board) during the course of my moves. If anyone has the schematics for it I'd like to try and put another one together. > > Lou > >Attachment Converted: "C:\ATTACH\ReWhat'1.htm" > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 12:36:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <02e001bf6f97$080d56e0$2ee993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 4, 0 09:58:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 830 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/a34aa3f6/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 12:56:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 5, 0 09:41:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2283 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/066f52eb/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 13:05:29 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Feb 5, 0 11:45:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1783 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/51b76e46/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 14:20:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: What's a WD2793A chip? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000205160226.2f47d4c4@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 5, 0 04:02:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 792 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/a274642c/attachment-0001.ksh From west at tseinc.com Sat Feb 5 14:12:30 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: ClassicCMP test subject prefix IGNORE Message-ID: <004701bf7015$561c90c0$0101a8c0@jay> test subject prefix From dann at greycat.com Sat Feb 5 14:30:55 2000 From: dann at greycat.com (Dann Lunsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: ; from mac@Wireless.Com on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 11:18:55AM -0800 References: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000205123055.A55477@greycat.com> On Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 11:18:55AM -0800, Mike Cheponis wrote: > I'd like to see a small tag be prefixed to the Subject: line so that it's > easier to know that the email came from the Classic Computer list. > > I suggest the Majordomo "config" file include a line like this: > > subject_prefix = [ClassicCmp] > > or somesuch. That way, it's quite easy to sort on messages from this list > both automatically, and, equally important, manually. I have to come out as vehemently opposed to this. I'm on a couple of lists that do this, and *all* it really achieves is reducing the number of visibie/useful characters in the Subject: header, and increasing the noise level. The Sender: header already contains "owner-classiccmp"; surely pine (never used it, msyelf; went from 'mail' to 'elm' to 'mutt', which I *LIKE* :-)) can sort on Sender:. Or use procmail to distribute your mail into folders; the following is the procmail recipe that I use for this list: :0: * ^Sender:.*owner-classiccmp* classiccomp (Yes, it could be smarter, but I don't feel like taking the time :-)) In short, Ah'm agin' it. -- Dann Lunsford The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil dann@greycat.com is that men of good will do nothing. -- Cicero From west at tseinc.com Sat Feb 5 14:29:42 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] DIGEST USERS/WANNABES PLEASE READ Message-ID: <007d01bf7017$c03c4fc0$0101a8c0@jay> The digests appear to be working, but likely need some "tuning". It appears the digests are being sent only when a certain number of messages have stacked up. I would like to change it so that the digest is sent out at a certain time each day, once a day, regardless of the number of messages waiting in the digest. Does anyone have any ideas regarding how it should be timed? Also, quite a few people have emailed me asking what happened to the digests. Apparently the old software handled the digests as part of the main list. With majordomo, digests are actually a totally separate list. If you want digests instead of regular traffic, unsubscribe to the classiccmp list and then subscribe to classiccmp-digest which is the name of the digest list. Send to majordomo@classiccmp.org with a key of 'unsubscribe classiccmp' Then send another message to majordomo@classiccmp.org with a key of 'subscribe classiccmp-digest' Of course, there's no reason you can't subscribe to both :) Pleast let me know if there's any problems. Regards, Jay West From west at tseinc.com Sat Feb 5 14:36:05 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request Message-ID: <008301bf7018$a0fca0a0$0101a8c0@jay> Another kind list user has just blessed me with four H89's and an H19, about 4 external 5.25 drives and one or two 8" drive boxes, along with a TON of manuals, software, etc. I was wondering if anyone can point me to a source for 5.25" floppy disk media for the drives that are internal to the H89's. I believe they are hard sector, perhaps 10 sector? Thanks in advance! Jay West From edick at idcomm.com Sat Feb 5 14:55:35 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: What's a WD2793A chip? Message-ID: <003801bf701b$5a057c00$0400c0a8@winbook> It sat as a mazzanine board on the 820 board, in place of the 1771 in order to enable the 820 to handle MFM format. regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, February 05, 2000 1:26 PM Subject: Re: What's a WD2793A chip? >Richard, > > Exactly what was add-on supposed to do for the Xerox 820? > > Joe > > >At 08:46 AM 2/5/00 -0700, Richard wrote: >>There may well have been one of these. I've got a one or two of the ones >a Denver company made for the Xerox 820 to insert a 1791/95 in place of the >1771. I even have the writeup somewhere, but no software patches. It just >seems that I never have both the mezzanine board and the doc at the same >time. >> >>Dick >> -----Original Message----- >> From: No Name >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Saturday, February 05, 2000 8:49 AM >> Subject: Re: What's a WD2793A chip? >> >> >> Wasn't there an add-on developed for the Xerox 820/ Big Board that >used the 2793? As I recall it was a a simpler (and less expensive) circuit >as compared to the other add-on being offered at the time. I had one and >lost it (as well as my 256K memory expansion board) during the course of my >moves. If anyone has the schematics for it I'd like to try and put another >one together. >> >> Lou >> >>Attachment Converted: "C:\ATTACH\ReWhat'1.htm" >> > From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Feb 5 15:13:55 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: References: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000205151355.01742df0@pc> At 11:18 AM 2/5/00 -0800, you wrote: >I don't much care -exactly- what the subject_prefix ends up being, just some >tag that uniquely identifies the message as coming from classiccmp. [CCC] would be shorter. If your mail program is doing the filtering, classiccmp@classiccmp.org is sprinkled throughout the header - or is there a filter out there that can only look at subject lines? Or are we talking about filtering performmed by your eyes on your mailbox? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Feb 5 15:11:07 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: References: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000205151107.01745560@pc> At 07:05 PM 2/5/00 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >Attacking a Word file with strings(1) often extracts some readable text >from it. However, I wonder what I am missing, as it appears only about >1/8 of the file is said text. Certainly within the last few years, Word was known for putting the contents of undo buffers or previous cut operations in the .DOC file. I know I used this trick to sometimes see the previous edits of, say, a contract or letter that someone had sent to me in Word form. :-) These days, if you hope to find strings in Windows-related files, you really need a 'strings' that handles Unicode. I think I saw one in the last year or two. - John From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 5 15:26:21 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Macintosh Portable questions. Message-ID: <20000205212621.85171.qmail@hotmail.com> Here are a few questions I have about the Macintosh Portable How much would a 3Mb (or larger) memory expander card cost? How much would a car power adapter cost? Were there ever any cards released that used the ROM slot? Were there ever any cards released that used the PDS slot? Where can I find a detailed pin-out diagram of the Portable's video out socket & a PC's VGA video socket? (The info in the manual is too vague, I require more info so I can at least try to rig-up a cable that can use a regular VGA monitor. That is all assuming that this is even possible in the first place) I know that Dynamic Engineering & Ebay have some of the things that I am looking for, but I am not paying *that* much for some of that stuff, they must think I'm an idiot or something. Also I really don't trust Ebay that much. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Feb 5 15:26:57 2000 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000204222906.01ba1460@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Feb 04, 2000 10:45:14 PM Message-ID: <200002052126.OAA15122@calico.litterbox.com> I believe VMS 5.4 is early enough that it doesn't like non-dec drives. I was unable to get my seagate drive to show up at all until I upgraded to VMS 7. whatever is on the hobbiest cdrom v2. The older versions' scsi driver was finicky. There's a workaround, but I've forgotten what it is, and I'm sure someone will post it. > > I have a very perplexing problem. What I want to do is mount a Seagate > ST410800N on a VMS 5.4-1 system. > > The hardware is a VAX 4000/300 with an Emulex UC-08-III controller half of > which is in MSCP mode. (the other half is talking to the tape drive) There > are two existing 1GB (Imprimis) drives on this system. > > First attempt: > > Put the drive into the SCSI chain, terminate it correctly, drives are > targets 0, 1, and 2. The new drive is now target 0, the others are moved to > 1 and 2. I reset the VAX and get into the Emulex firmware (rev 'M' (changed > to 'R' later, see below)) and try to autoconfigure the drives. The two 1GB > drives show up like they should, the 9GB drive shows up as a 500MB drive. > Weird. > > Second attempt: > Replace the firmware in the Emulex with version 'R'. Attempt to > reconfigure, same problem as #1. > > Third attempt: > Attempt to manually specify the geometry and notice that the Seagate is > reporting it has 4925 cylinders but the prompt says the number has to be > between 20 and 4095. I enter a number smaller than 4095 and say 'OK'. Now > the drive shows up as having 14x10E6 blocks! Ok so now we're getting > somewhere but I forgot to configure the other two. > > Fourth Attempt: > Recompute "Fake" heads/sectors numbers so that by using 4094 cylinders I > get close to the drives 17,845,431 blocks. Configure the two 1GB drives > with all the defaults. Seagate drive shows up as a 1/2 G drive again. On a > whim I subtract the number of blocks shown from what it should be, the > result is in the 16x10E6 range, aha! I say. > > Fifth Attempt: > Recompute cylinder/sector/head numbers so that the total will be less than > 2^24-1 blocks. This works and I end up with a controller that thinks the > drive is about 8GB in size (I could live with this for now...). So we go > all the way up to VMS. > > In VMS I type 'INIT DUA0: TEST' and it fails with "%INIT-F-CLUSTER > unsuitable cluster factor", I drill down through the help files but there > doesn't seem to be a comment on this. It talks about VAX clusters and > CLUSTER_SIZE which I tried setting to higher numbers (like 10 or 16). But > nothing has worked so far. > > My questions then are: > 1) Is there a way to get the Emulex controller to recognize more that 2^24 > blocks on a SCSI drive? > 2) Does VMS have a volume size limit in 5.4-1 that I need to know about? > 3) If I "split" the volume on the Emulex into two logical drives, can the sum > of the logical drive sizes be greater than 8GB? > > Curious minds want to know! > --Chuck (Who is enjoying VMS for the time being ... ;-)) > > > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 5 15:37:25 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: References: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >I'd like to see a small tag be prefixed to the Subject: line so that it's >easier to know that the email came from the Classic Computer list. > >I suggest the Majordomo "config" file include a line like this: > >subject_prefix = [ClassicCmp] Oh, NO! I'd just like to point out that this makes sorting messages a nightmare! PLUS it means you've got shorter subject lines. ARGGHHH! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 5 16:34:41 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: References: <02e001bf6f97$080d56e0$2ee993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000205173441.495f077a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:36 PM 2/5/00 +0000, Tony wrote: > >> (I've NEVER seen a machine with the touch screen BTW). > >I can confirm that it does exist, at least for the 150-II. The Touch Screen came standard on all HP 150s. It was optional on the TS-II. It could also be ordered and installed by the user. I've never seen it on a TS-II, but I've only seen a few TS-IIs anyway. BUT I did see a Touch Screen add on for sale on E-bay once. The same add-on Touch Screen could also be used on one of the HP terminals. Joe From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Feb 5 15:55:02 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:33 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Why is it a nightmare? It's all the same for me (as far as software sorting). On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >I'd like to see a small tag be prefixed to the Subject: line so that it's > >easier to know that the email came from the Classic Computer list. > > > >I suggest the Majordomo "config" file include a line like this: > > > >subject_prefix = [ClassicCmp] > > Oh, NO! I'd just like to point out that this makes sorting messages a > nightmare! PLUS it means you've got shorter subject lines. ARGGHHH! > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From kevinm at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Sat Feb 5 14:47:26 2000 From: kevinm at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] PDP8/S, then GRI99, and later a British machine?? Message-ID: <002601bf701a$35d1b660$8700a8c0@xpuppy> Many years ago I worked on a minicomputer range manufactured in the UK. The series was the Molecular 18 sold by BCL Ltd. Having an interest in this machine, and in PDP8 machines, I have been looking for links between the two. (The two machines have quite a few similarities) In an interview, Saul Dinman (who designed the PDP8/S) talks about a later design called the GRI-909. Saul had left DEC at this stage. The company that manufactured the early Molecular 18 machines in the UK was Allied Business Computers, who also produced a machine called the GRI-99. This all may be coincidence and fanciful, but does any one have any information of the GRI range of machines? Kevin Murrell UK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/f526eeaa/attachment-0001.html From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 16:21:26 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: References: < <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000205142007.016b5dd0@mcmanis.com> I'm with Zane here (who uttered these words) putting [ClassicCMP] in the header is a waste of space. There are plenty of unambiguous indicators in the message headers that messages come from this list and most if not all software will sort them correctly. --Chuck At 01:37 PM 2/5/00 -0800, you wrote: >Oh, NO! I'd just like to point out that this makes sorting messages a >nightmare! PLUS it means you've got shorter subject lines. ARGGHHH! From cem14 at cornell.edu Sat Feb 5 16:20:17 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: References: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000205172017.00d3c4cc@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 07:05 PM 02/05/2000 +0000, you wrote: >There is one big difference. Runoff, *roff, TeX, etc are all >human-readable anyway. Yes, I know TeX is a complete programming >language, so in theory you could encrypt some text and write a TeX document >that decodes it and prints it, but nobody ever does :-). Tony: did you ever play with BASiX ? it was a bare-bones TeX-based BASIC intepreter written just for the sake of proving that it could be done. It was published in TUGBoat at some point in time. Fun source to look at. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 16:42:45 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? In-Reply-To: <200002052126.OAA15122@calico.litterbox.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20000204222906.01ba1460@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000205143959.015aaa20@mcmanis.com> Certainly possible, the controller can "split" the drive into multiple parts probably to get around this. Does anyone know what the largest drive VMS 5.4 could use? Is that in the Software SPD somewhere? (This I have but it is pretty opaque) --Chuck >I believe VMS 5.4 is early enough that it doesn't like non-dec drives. I was >unable to get my seagate drive to show up at all until I upgraded to VMS 7. >whatever is on the hobbiest cdrom v2. The older versions' scsi driver was >finicky. There's a workaround, but I've forgotten what it is, and I'm sure >someone will post it. [smallish protest note, since we've gone back to the broken(tm) way of doing replies to the list my mailer no longer appropriately attributes quotations, therefore from this message forward I'll simply remove the now supurious "you wrote:" line. --Chuck] From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 16:47:52 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000205144724.015c7ba0@mcmanis.com> Does anyone know if RSX-11M 4.0 supports MSCP drives? --Chuck From ss at allegro.com Sat Feb 5 16:49:01 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000205142007.016b5dd0@mcmanis.com> References: <"v04020a00b4c2484412f6(a)(091)192.168.1.5(093)*"@MHS> Message-ID: <200002052249.OAA07129@opus.allegro.com> Re: > I'm with Zane here (who uttered these words) putting [ClassicCMP] in the > header is a waste of space. There are plenty of unambiguous indicators in > the message headers that messages come from this list and most if not all > software will sort them correctly. > --Chuck > > At 01:37 PM 2/5/00 -0800, you wrote: > >Oh, NO! I'd just like to point out that this makes sorting messages a > >nightmare! PLUS it means you've got shorter subject lines. ARGGHHH! I agree! In Pegasus, "new mail" window, this message's subject line is: Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] T (yes, when I open the message, I see the full subject: Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line (yes, I have the "subject" column more than adequately sized!) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 5 16:48:11 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request In-Reply-To: <008301bf7018$a0fca0a0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000205174811.2f0f7c50@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Jay, IF they're 10 sectored then North Star's use the same disk. There was a guy that was selling quite a bit of N* software on E-bay. The price was running about $1/disk if I remember correctly. If you can't find any of the ads, I have his address somewhere and I can dig it out for you. Joe At 02:36 PM 2/5/00 -0600, you wrote: >Another kind list user has just blessed me with four H89's and an H19, about >4 external 5.25 drives and one or two 8" drive boxes, along with a TON of >manuals, software, etc. > >I was wondering if anyone can point me to a source for 5.25" floppy disk >media for the drives that are internal to the H89's. I believe they are hard >sector, perhaps 10 sector? > >Thanks in advance! > >Jay West > > From KB9VU at aol.com Sat Feb 5 17:04:33 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request Message-ID: <3b.ae97a7.25ce0681@aol.com> Oh, I forgot to tell you, there is a disk in the software pile called EMULATE. It will allow you to read and write several other computer disk write schemes (Kaypro, Osborne, Cromemco, Tandy, Magnolia, CDR, Z-37, Z-47, Etc.). The disks need to be the same media (Hard Sector or Soft Sector) but it works pretty slick. Mike From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Feb 5 17:08:19 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? Message-ID: <200002052308.SAA29408@world.std.com> >How much would a 3Mb (or larger) memory expander card cost? All luck. They're so obscure there really is no set price. >How much would a car power adapter cost? You'd probably be best off just getting an AC to car converter. I have a "Curtis Power Maker 50" which I paid about $50 for, and it works fine. >Were there ever any cards released that used the ROM slot? >Were there ever any cards released that used the PDS slot? All I can think of is the modem and memory cards. >Where can I find a detailed pin-out diagram of the Portable's video out >socket & a PC's VGA video socket? This could be tough. An adapter is required to use an external monitor on the Mac Portable, and I've never heard of anybody actually owning one. Unless you can find a _lot_ more information, you'd probably have better luck finding a SCSI-based monitor. Tom ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From owad at applefritter.com Sat Feb 5 17:42:40 2000 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line Message-ID: <200002052345.PAA00646@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >I have to come out as vehemently opposed to this. I'm on a couple of lists >that do this, and *all* it really achieves is reducing the number of >visibie/useful characters in the Subject: header, and increasing the >noise level. I agree; it is a bit of a nuisance. ClassicCmp gets so much traffic I'm sure most of us have it automatically sorted. At worst, how about just '[C]'? Tom Owad ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. ------------------------------------------ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Feb 5 17:30:09 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: <20000205123055.A55477@greycat.com> References: ; from mac@Wireless.Com on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 11:18:55AM -0800 <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: I don't mind a subject thing, but maybe shorter? [CCmp] I am a visual sorter, but at least my VCR doesn't blink 12:00 (for more than a month after a power out.) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 17:28:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000205172017.00d3c4cc@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> from "Carlos Murillo" at Feb 5, 0 05:20:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 669 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/15d4ca14/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 17:24:42 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request In-Reply-To: <008301bf7018$a0fca0a0$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Feb 5, 0 02:36:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1141 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000205/5c209ae4/attachment-0001.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 5 17:57:16 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Why is it a nightmare? It's all the same for me (as far as software >sorting). Because if you sort by subject so you can find an entire thread, you won't find the entire thread. Furthermore, almost anyone that filters thier mail into separate mailboxes shouldn't need that in the subject. I filter off of finding "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" in the message headers. Also what started out as: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line is now: Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line It will get worse. I'm was on a mailing list that does this with just a two letter id, and I've seen it creep most of the way across the subject. I will admit this might be handy if you're not filtering stuff into different mailboxes/folders. Of course if you're active enough on the list you should be able to recognize a message from the list, just by the sender/subject! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Feb 5 06:16:06 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: Tag requested in Subject: line References: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <389C1486.B7A7E1E4@idirect.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > >I'd like to see a small tag be prefixed to the Subject: line so that it's > >easier to know that the email came from the Classic Computer list. > >I suggest the Majordomo "config" file include a line like this: > >subject_prefix = [ClassicCmp] > Oh, NO! I'd just like to point out that this makes sorting messages a > nightmare! PLUS it means you've got shorter subject lines. ARGGHHH! Jerome Fine replies: I agree with the original request and I agree with Zane. Perhaps a compromise like: subject_prefix = [CCmp] would do the job and still be just as identifiable. Even then, if we take a little bit of extra time (about 10 seconds - much longer than it takes me to type even this stuff in parenthesis), the original [CCmp] can be deleted. I don't know if the list software can also search for the presence of any imbedded [CCmp] strings and eliminate those as well automatically. Otherwise, I do prefer the prefix. Sorry Zane! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Feb 5 06:19:42 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? References: <4.2.0.58.20000205104027.015c4450@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <389C155E.38F7E4AC@idirect.com> >Chuck McManis wrote: > Feel free to bid on it, I just put a $10 bid on it to see what the reserve > was (its more than $10 :-) > > > It is the LSI-11 built into a VT100 thingy (a PDT-11?) The cards are from > > > left to right: > > > LSI=11/03 processor, RQDXn disk controller, Memory (looks like an M8044), > > > serial port, and RX01 floppy controller. A cute system and well worth the > > > dollar that is currently bid :-) > >I see that you're the high bidder, or I'd probably bid on it myself (that, > >and I already have a VT103 and boxes of Qbus cards). > >What _I_ see there in the ad is an 11/23 CPU (KDF-11), some third party > >(floppy) controller (white handle - the RQDX3 has a 50-pin connector in > >the middle of a red handle; the RQDX1 and RQDX2 are quad-width), memory > >(perhaps an M8044, as you say), an IVB11 (IEEE-488) and a DJV11-J 4-port > >SIO card. Pretty standard stuff. Jerome Fine replies: Since I already have a VT103 (with the backplane upgraded to 22 bit addresses no less), I do not want another one. But I would like to track the auction. But when I searched for it, I could not find it. Can anyone supply the URL please? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Feb 5 18:31:05 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? In-Reply-To: Chuck McManis "[ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives?" (Feb 5, 14:47) References: <4.2.0.58.20000205144724.015c7ba0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <10002060031.ZM7960@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 5, 14:47, Chuck McManis wrote: > Does anyone know if RSX-11M 4.0 supports MSCP drives? 4.x certainly does, but I can't remember exactly which interfaces. I recall using an RQDX2 on miy 11/73, maybe RQDX3. The earliest MSCP support appeared in 3.x, I think. I assume you have a reason for asking? If I know what interface/drive you were thinking of, I might be able to look it up in the SYSGEN manual. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Feb 5 18:07:56 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST In-Reply-To: "emanuel stiebler" "Re: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST" (Feb 5, 9:09) References: <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <011701bf6ff3$d27ac320$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: <10002060007.ZM7941@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 5, 9:09, emanuel stiebler wrote: > I like b) most. This sending of HTML, happens mostly to new members, (or to > "old" users, which got a browser "update" ;-)) so they can see immediatly > whats wrong, and we don't even see this email, so no reason for a new > discussion about it AGAIN. ;-) I've noticed on rare occasions, that regular contributors post an HTML or multipart message as a follow-up. I don't have one handy to check, but I suspect that's due to Netscape Messenger (and I think Outlook may do it too) having a setting that normally sends plain text, but HTML-ises a reply to an HTML message. I'm pretty sure the regulars who've let that happen have done so unintentionally. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Feb 5 18:23:56 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: Mike Cheponis "[ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line" (Feb 5, 11:18) References: Message-ID: <10002060023.ZM7954@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 5, 11:18, Mike Cheponis wrote: > I'd like to see a small tag be prefixed to the Subject: line so that it's > easier to know that the email came from the Classic Computer list. > > I suggest the Majordomo "config" file include a line like this: > > subject_prefix = [ClassicCmp] > > or somesuch. That way, it's quite easy to sort on messages from this list > both automatically, and, equally important, manually. No!!! Please! Any sensible mailer can sort on, or at least display, one of the "Sender:" or "To:" field, or the envelope "From" (not the header "From:") instead of the envelope "To" line. All of these, as well as the "Reply-to:", refer to the mailing list address. Anyone who hasn't seen all the headers, see below for the headers as I received Mike's message, and you'll see what I mean. All the prefix does is make it messy, and waste space. -------------------received headers below here--------------------------- >From owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sat Feb 5 23:59:44 2000 Received: from localhost by indy.dunnington.u-net.com via ESMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1502/980207.PNT) for id XAA07839; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 23:59:44 GMT Envelope-to: pete@dunnington.u-net.com Delivery-date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 19:52:39 +0000 Received: from mail.u-net.com by fetchmail-4.6.0 POP3 for (multi-drop); Sat, 05 Feb 2000 23:59:44 GMT Received: from [209.83.134.16] (helo=opal.tseinc.com) by mserv1b.u-net.net with esmtp (Exim 2.10 #63) id 12HBG2-0004Gp-00 for pete@dunnington.u-net.com; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 19:52:38 +0000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by opal.tseinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA64868 for classiccmp-classiccmp-org-outgoing; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 13:18:56 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org) X-Authentication-Warning: opal.tseinc.com: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f Received: from NameServer.Culver.Net (mac@[206.79.230.38]) by opal.tseinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA64863 for ; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 13:18:54 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mac@Wireless.Com) Received: from localhost (mac@localhost) by NameServer.Culver.Net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA18471; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 11:18:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 11:18:55 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Cheponis X-Sender: mac@NameServer.Culver.Net To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -------------------received headers above here--------------------------- -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Sat Feb 5 18:35:34 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: <200002052345.PAA00646@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net>; from owad@applefritter.com on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 06:42:40PM -0500 References: <200002052345.PAA00646@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20000205193534.A17625@alcor.concordia.ca> On Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 06:42:40PM -0500, Tom Owad (owad@applefritter.com) wrote: > >I have to come out as vehemently opposed to this. I'm on a couple of lists > >that do this, and *all* it really achieves is reducing the number of > >visibie/useful characters in the Subject: header, and increasing the > >noise level. > > I agree; it is a bit of a nuisance. ClassicCmp gets so much traffic I'm > sure most of us have it automatically sorted. > > At worst, how about just '[C]'? Even that will cause a problem, since Majordomo appears to be too stupid to understand "Re:", and you end up with cascading "Re: [ClassicCMP]" all across the top. I am aware of no mail filters which only allow filtering on Subject:. -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From go at ao.com Sat Feb 5 19:01:57 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST In-Reply-To: <10002060007.ZM7941@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <"emanuel stiebler" <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <011701bf6ff3$d27ac320$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000205165738.036eed00@buffy.ao.com> >I've noticed on rare occasions, that regular contributors post an HTML or >multipart message as a follow-up. I don't have one handy to check, but I >suspect that's due to Netscape Messenger (and I think Outlook may do it >too) having a setting that normally sends plain text, but HTML-ises a >reply to an HTML message. I'm pretty sure the regulars who've let that >happen have done so unintentionally. > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York You can blame Eudora as well. They implemented a new "flowed" display that changes text set off by > into a change bar sort of thing. Unfortunatly, when you reply to a message that is already a reply, it turns the mess into some kind of RTF (html is mostly used.) I have my Eudora configured to ASK first before sending this, and to set "send as text only" before it gets launched. If you don't configure it to ASK, it goes out RTF'd. And it appears that Eudora turns ALL messages into HTML internally (when I do a "view source" on any message, I get HTML for everything - even the rfc822 headers. I've complained several times to the Eudora tech support and have never received an answer...) -Gary From donm at cts.com Sat Feb 5 19:12:10 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: <389C1486.B7A7E1E4@idirect.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Jerome Fine wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > >I'd like to see a small tag be prefixed to the Subject: line so that it's > > >easier to know that the email came from the Classic Computer list. > > >I suggest the Majordomo "config" file include a line like this: > > >subject_prefix = [ClassicCmp] > > Oh, NO! I'd just like to point out that this makes sorting messages a > > nightmare! PLUS it means you've got shorter subject lines. ARGGHHH! > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I agree with the original request and I agree with Zane. Perhaps a compromise like: > subject_prefix = [CCmp] would do the job and still be just as identifiable. Even > then, if we take a little bit of extra time (about 10 seconds - much longer than it takes > me to type even this stuff in parenthesis), the original [CCmp] can be deleted. I don't > know if the list software can also search for the presence of any imbedded [CCmp] > strings and eliminate those as well automatically. > > Otherwise, I do prefer the prefix. Sorry Zane! Well, you could preface it with Re: as in Zane's previous example: : Also what started out as: : [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line : is now: : Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line : It will get worse. I'm was on a mailing list that does this with just : a two letter id, and I've seen it creep most of the way across the subject. 8-) - don > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > > From mac at Wireless.Com Sat Feb 5 20:05:15 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: <200002052345.PAA00646@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I think just [C] or [CC] would be OK, too. -Mike On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Tom Owad wrote: > >I have to come out as vehemently opposed to this. I'm on a couple of lists > >that do this, and *all* it really achieves is reducing the number of > >visibie/useful characters in the Subject: header, and increasing the > >noise level. > > I agree; it is a bit of a nuisance. ClassicCmp gets so much traffic I'm > sure most of us have it automatically sorted. > > At worst, how about just '[C]'? > > Tom Owad > > ------------------------------Applefritter------------------------------ > Apple Prototypes, Clones, & Hacks - The obscure, unusual, & exceptional. > ------------------------------------------ > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 5 20:14:55 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? In-Reply-To: <10002060031.ZM7960@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: Chuck McManis "[ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives?" (Feb 5, 14:47) <4.2.0.58.20000205144724.015c7ba0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: Peter Turnbull wrote: >On Feb 5, 14:47, Chuck McManis wrote: >> Does anyone know if RSX-11M 4.0 supports MSCP drives? > >4.x certainly does, but I can't remember exactly which interfaces. I >recall using an RQDX2 on miy 11/73, maybe RQDX3. The earliest MSCP support >appeared in 3.x, I think. I assume you have a reason for asking? If I know >what interface/drive you were thinking of, I might be able to look it up in >the SYSGEN manual. I've used a WQESD ESDI controller, and a Viking QDT SCSI controller with V4.2 without any problem. Should just need to SYSGEN in MSCP support. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dann at greycat.com Sat Feb 5 20:55:17 2000 From: dann at greycat.com (Dann Lunsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: <20000205193534.A17625@alcor.concordia.ca>; from rich@alcor.concordia.ca on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 07:35:34PM -0500 References: <200002052345.PAA00646@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <20000205193534.A17625@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <20000205185517.A64919@greycat.com> On Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 07:35:34PM -0500, Rich Lafferty wrote: > On Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 06:42:40PM -0500, Tom Owad (owad@applefritter.com) wrote: > > >I have to come out as vehemently opposed to this. I'm on a couple of lists > > >that do this, and *all* it really achieves is reducing the number of > > >visibie/useful characters in the Subject: header, and increasing the > > >noise level. > > > > I agree; it is a bit of a nuisance. ClassicCmp gets so much traffic I'm > > sure most of us have it automatically sorted. > > > > At worst, how about just '[C]'? > > Even that will cause a problem, since Majordomo appears to be too stupid > to understand "Re:", and you end up with cascading "Re: [ClassicCMP]" > all across the top. > > I am aware of no mail filters which only allow filtering on Subject:. > Well, strictly speaking, you could do this with procmail (aided and abetted by a couple of other programs), but I'll bet the result wouldn't be pretty. *Nasty old fart mode on* But my major objection, putting it perhaps a bit forcefully, is: Why should *I* have to deal with garbage put there to make up for *someone else's* brain dead, bletcherous MUA or someone else's lack of desire to learn how to use what they've got? If your MUA can't filter and/or sort effectively, JUNK IT! Don't ask everyone else to put up with extraneous garbage. GET SOMETHING THAT WORKS! And learn how to use it! In the long run, you'll be a lot happier, and certainly the people you deal with will be. (hmm.. should I turn it off? Nah.) -- Dann Lunsford The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil dann@greycat.com is that men of good will do nothing. -- Cicero From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 5 20:54:43 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: References: <200002052345.PAA00646@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Mike Cheponis wrote: >I think just [C] or [CC] would be OK, too. Why not just set up a filter that searches for "classiccmp@classiccmp.org"? As I've stated, the prefix trashes trying to sort messages by subject. It's not simply a problem of how much space it takes up. Rich Lafferty wrote: >Even that will cause a problem, since Majordomo appears to be too stupid >to understand "Re:", and you end up with cascading "Re: [ClassicCMP]" >all across the top. I suspect the problem is with specific eMail software, from what I've seen of this on other lists. It usually seems to be certain people that have/cause this problem. >I am aware of no mail filters which only allow filtering on Subject:. Actually some software such as Eudora Pro can. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 5 21:09:25 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: Why Tag's in subject lines are a BAD Thing! In-Reply-To: <389C1486.B7A7E1E4@idirect.com> References: <20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> >I'd like to see a small tag be prefixed to the Subject: line so that it's >> >easier to know that the email came from the Classic Computer list. >> >I suggest the Majordomo "config" file include a line like this: >> >subject_prefix = [ClassicCmp] >> Oh, NO! I'd just like to point out that this makes sorting messages a >> nightmare! PLUS it means you've got shorter subject lines. ARGGHHH! > >Jerome Fine replies: > >I agree with the original request and I agree with Zane. Perhaps a >compromise like: >subject_prefix = [CCmp] would do the job and still be just as >identifiable. Even >then, if we take a little bit of extra time (about 10 seconds - much >longer than it takes >me to type even this stuff in parenthesis), the original [CCmp] can be >deleted. I don't >know if the list software can also search for the presence of any imbedded >[CCmp] >strings and eliminate those as well automatically. > >Otherwise, I do prefer the prefix. Sorry Zane! My *KEY* point/compaint/rant, is that it destroys the ability to sort the messages by subject. I just did a quick sort by subject and got the following results (this is a small subset, and you'll note I've split out the specific thread I'm *trying* to follow): <--> [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line <--> [ClassicCMP] Re: Digital Prometrix Omnimap 111, DEC??? [ClassicCMP] Re: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML in Email [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML in Email Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML in Email [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST [ClassicCMP] Re: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? <--> [ClassicCMP] Re: Tag requested in Subject: line Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: Tag requested in Subject: line <--> [ClassicCMP] Re: What's a WD2793A chip? <--> [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line [ClassicCMP] Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line <--> As you can see from this example using tags in the subject line totally breaks the ability to sort the messages by subject and follow a thread. It doesn't matter if you change the tag to something of a more sensible lenght, the ability to sort by subjects will still be lost! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Feb 5 21:38:16 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Why is it a nightmare? It's all the same for me (as far as software > >sorting). > > Because if you sort by subject so you can find an entire thread, you won't > find the entire thread. Furthermore, almost anyone that filters thier mail Ahh, point seen... From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Feb 5 21:41:22 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? Message-ID: <200002060341.WAA17877@world.std.com> ; from dann@greycat.com on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 06:55:17PM -0800 References: <200002052345.PAA00646@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <20000205193534.A17625@alcor.concordia.ca> <20000205185517.A64919@greycat.com> Message-ID: <20000205225224.B22487@alcor.concordia.ca> On Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 06:55:17PM -0800, Dann Lunsford (dann@greycat.com) wrote: > On Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 07:35:34PM -0500, Rich Lafferty wrote: > > > > I am aware of no mail filters which only allow filtering on Subject:. > > > Well, strictly speaking, you could do this with procmail (aided and > abetted by a couple of other programs), but I'll bet the result wouldn't > be pretty. Pedants! You're all pedants! Argh! "I am aware of no mail filters which allow filtering on Subject: only." There. Better? Furrfu! :-) (I've heard mumbles that majordomo 2 allows configuring both the Reply-To and the [ClassicCmp] subject thingie on a per-user basis. Updates as events warrant!) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 22:16:34 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000205165738.036eed00@buffy.ao.com> References: <10002060007.ZM7941@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <"emanuel stiebler" <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <011701bf6ff3$d27ac320$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000205201459.016beec0@mcmanis.com> I'd send to Gary but, you know ... Go to the options panel and turn off "use microsoft viewer" and it wont convert to HTML. It will still "flow" it however. So this message has been "flowed" by Eudora, can anyone confirm or deny that it is in HTML or RTF? (I see it as having two change bar type things on the left side. --Chuck At 05:01 PM 2/5/00 -0800, you wrote: >>I've noticed on rare occasions, that regular contributors post an HTML or >>multipart message as a follow-up. I don't have one handy to check, but I >>suspect that's due to Netscape Messenger (and I think Outlook may do it >>too) having a setting that normally sends plain text, but HTML-ises a >>reply to an HTML message. I'm pretty sure the regulars who've let that >>happen have done so unintentionally. >> >>-- >> >>Pete Peter Turnbull >> Dept. of Computer Science >> University of York > >You can blame Eudora as well. They implemented a new "flowed" display >that changes text set off by > into a change bar sort of thing. Unfortunatly, >when you reply to a message that is already a reply, it turns the mess >into some kind of RTF (html is mostly used.) I have my Eudora configured >to ASK first before sending this, and to set "send as text only" before >it gets launched. If you don't configure it to ASK, it goes out RTF'd. > >And it appears that Eudora turns ALL messages into HTML internally (when >I do a "view source" on any message, I get HTML for everything - even >the rfc822 headers. I've complained several times to the Eudora tech >support and have never received an answer...) > >-Gary > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 22:19:40 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? In-Reply-To: <10002060031.ZM7960@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20000205144724.015c7ba0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000205201723.015c5bc0@mcmanis.com> At 12:31 AM 2/6/00 +0000, ete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) wrote: >On Feb 5, 14:47, Chuck McManis wrote: > > Does anyone know if RSX-11M 4.0 supports MSCP drives? > >4.x certainly does, but I can't remember exactly which interfaces. I >recall using an RQDX2 on miy 11/73, maybe RQDX3. The earliest MSCP support >appeared in 3.x, I think. I assume you have a reason for asking? If I know >what interface/drive you were thinking of, I might be able to look it up in >the SYSGEN manual. Well it may be moot if the tape is destroyed, however the plan was to install it on an 11/23 using a Sigma RQDE11 (Webster licensed) board. I can tell it to report back to RSX any set of disks I would like. The trick is whether or not RSX will do the MSCP thing. (RT-11 won't for example until 5.1 :-() --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 22:22:19 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line In-Reply-To: References: <200002052345.PAA00646@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000205202032.0177fcc0@mcmanis.com> I think Jay has turned them off, at least a couple of messages further down seem to have them off, but the point is not how long they are, it is that the software is too stupid to see "Re: [ClassicCMP]" and say "gee this thing already has a tag on it, I'll leave it alone." Instead it adds another one, so every reply adds 16 characters to the subject line. Tags are evil. --Chuck At 06:05 PM 2/5/00 -0800, you wrote: >I think just [C] or [CC] would be OK, too. >-Mike From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 5 22:43:29 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: Disk size limits in VMS 5.4-1? In-Reply-To: <200002060341.WAA17877@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000205203525.015b0810@mcmanis.com> At 10:41 PM 2/5/00 -0500, Allison wrote: >It's not so much a limit on 5.4 as the specific hardware limits that were >usually lower than VMS maxima. FOr example 3100s(early) cant have a boot >device more than 1.07gb but data devices can be much larger. The problem >was a artifact of early SCSI implmentations and not VMS limits. Since VMS >allowed (even before V5) things like bound and shadow volumes to create >terabyte sized disk fields I can see a limit for practical systems. Hmmm, good information but the problem remains without a clear solution. I was going to look at this today but instead got wrapped up in another vax project, a 3400 that I thought was in a dead BA213 roll around box. After replacing the power supplies in that box I discovered that a single RF30 isn't enough to cause the BA213's PSU to start regulating. But that raised another interesting point since the VAX 4000 manual has a nice discussion about clustering a couple of VAX on the DSSI bus and the 3400 has an on board DSSI bus, perhaps I can cluster the 3400 and the 4000 together. I still have to figure out if 5.4 can cluster dissimilar CPUs. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Feb 6 14:13:55 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: Ping Message-ID: The list still here? I have a hard time believing zero posts since last night. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Feb 6 13:43:07 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: HTML in Email References: <200002050841.DAA11126@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <002501bf70de$f9a73a00$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Sean, >> Sheesh. Plain text really sucks. Y'all prefer that someone type _like >>this_ to indicate a piece of underlined text? or my habit *bolding* with >>asterisks? This message "encoded" with HTML is roughly 5% larger than it >>is in plain text. Wow, now that's a waste of resources. Where did this quote come from? I've not seen this message, is my ISP losing mail for me again? :-( And to whoever actually wrote the above, where on earth did you get that figure of 5% from? HTML encoded messages are pretty much *100%* bigger than plain text messages - such messages contain TWO copies of the text, one in plain ASCII, one in HTML. Oh, and _YES_ I *personally* prefer the use of "_" and "*" to emphasise text.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sat Feb 5 11:28:38 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST References: <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20000205020448.24621.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <002401bf70de$f82e55a0$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Eric, >> Options I can think of: >> >> a) silently discard any such postings (probably not a good idea) >> b) bounce them back to the author, with an explanation of why bounced >> c) remove the non-text part >> d) combination of (b) and (c) >> e) accept, but warn the author (who may not realise (s)he's sent HTML) >> > For options a and b, only the header needs to be examined.... Personally I'd go for option "b", it would be the easiest and most courteous method. Whilst desirable, I feel option "c" would be too problematical. >....If people want to supply files to the list, it should be done by >providing a URL, or by private email. No attachments should be sent >to the list. Absolutely. Not only could this lead to potential virus distribution problems but if there are 400 people subscribed to the list and someone attaches a 1Mb file to a message it's going to clog up the server! TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Feb 6 14:44:29 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST In-Reply-To: <002401bf70de$f82e55a0$91d993c3@proteus>; from peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:28:38PM -0000 References: <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20000205020448.24621.qmail@brouhaha.com> <002401bf70de$f82e55a0$91d993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <20000206154429.A14667@alcor.concordia.ca> On Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 05:28:38PM -0000, Peter Pachla (peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk) wrote: > Hi Eric, > > >> Options I can think of: > >> > >> a) silently discard any such postings (probably not a good idea) > >> b) bounce them back to the author, with an explanation of why bounced > >> c) remove the non-text part > >> d) combination of (b) and (c) > >> e) accept, but warn the author (who may not realise (s)he's sent HTML) > >> > > For options a and b, only the header needs to be examined.... > > Personally I'd go for option "b", it would be the easiest and most courteous > method. Whilst desirable, I feel option "c" would be too problematical. If we do end up bouncing MIME'd messages, please don't block PGP/MIME signatures. (That is, please don't block messages of type multipart/signed, with part types of text/plain and application/pgp-signature.) We might also not want to block multipart messages that consist of only text/plain or message/rfc822, which are probably people forwarding other people's mail (read: forwarding other people's offers of computers) from a MIME-aware mail agent. -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Feb 6 15:01:47 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: Ping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.20000206155908.00b5fdd0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:13 PM 2/6/00 -0800, Zane H. Healy said something like: >The list still here? I have a hard time believing zero posts since last night. Well, everybody was plumb wore out from all the list operation discussions :-) Seems to work very well now! --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From west at tseinc.com Sun Feb 6 14:48:36 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: Ping References: Message-ID: <001101bf70e3$8b9d6b60$0101a8c0@jay> Zane wrote.... > The list still here? I have a hard time believing zero posts since last night. > > Zane It's here now anyways.... All of our services, especially mail - are redundant. If the primary server fails, there's a backup server that automagically takes over the load. Our primary mail server locked up last night about midnight. The backup mail server took over so mail was still working. However, since I was in a rush to get the list up I hadn't yet taken the time to make the classiccmp majordomo service redundant as well (it needs to be done on a service by service basis, not on a machine by machine basis). Sometime towards the end of this coming week I'll make the classiccmp majordomo setup redundant so it doesn't happen again. Regards, Jay West From west at tseinc.com Sun Feb 6 14:53:36 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request References: <3b.ae97a7.25ce0681@aol.com> Message-ID: <000b01bf70e4$3f7a5760$0101a8c0@jay> You wrote.... > Oh, I forgot to tell you, there is a disk in the software pile called > EMULATE. It will allow you to read and write several other computer disk > write schemes (Kaypro, Osborne, Cromemco, Tandy, Magnolia, CDR, Z-37, Z-47, > Etc.). The disks need to be the same media (Hard Sector or Soft Sector) but > it works pretty slick. > > Mike Thanks for the tip! Hey, I haven't got a chance to go through the stuff yet. Tell me, are these H89/90's or Z89/90's?? Isn't the different an 8080cpu vs. Z80? Jay From spc at armigeron.com Sun Feb 6 15:34:21 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: <002501bf70de$f9a73a00$91d993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 06, 2000 07:43:07 PM Message-ID: <200002062134.QAA09079@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Peter Pachla once stated: > > Hi Sean, > > >> Sheesh. Plain text really sucks. Y'all prefer that someone type _like > >>this_ to indicate a piece of underlined text? or my habit *bolding* with > >>asterisks? This message "encoded" with HTML is roughly 5% larger than it > >>is in plain text. Wow, now that's a waste of resources. > > Where did this quote come from? I've not seen this message, is my ISP losing > mail for me again? :-( Unless you were on the list in January of 1999, you wouldn't have seen the message I quoted. Last year this time was a discussion about this very topic and I just thought it would be interesting to bring it to our collective attention again. I have elm set up to save any outgoing message I send in a folder based upon the recipient, so everything I write for classiccmp (with a few exceptions over the past few days) is in one large folder called ``classiccmp.'' > And to whoever actually wrote the above, where on earth did you get that > figure of 5% from? HTML encoded messages are pretty much *100%* bigger than > plain text messages - such messages contain TWO copies of the text, one in > plain ASCII, one in HTML. He was saying that HTML *itself* only adds about 5% to plain text. Perhaps in a few cases that's true, like for hand written HTML, but most of these so called HTML editors are really bad and bloat the HTML out quite a bit. -spc (You should have seen the HTML reply I sent him back 8-) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Feb 6 15:47:06 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: Another test Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000206134624.019163a0@mcmanis.com> Well this is my third message since last night and I haven't seen one yet. Then the Ping's came through this morning, perhaps this one will make it... --Chuck From mac at Wireless.Com Sun Feb 6 15:47:59 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [CC] Tags are great Message-ID: Actually, folks, the software is -not- so stupid. What happened was that I put on my -personal- subject: line the string [ClassicCmp]. Then Jay added first ClassicCMP then [ClassicCmp]; these are in fact different. Notice: Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject If people had chosen to be observant, they would have noticed -no- other subject had multiple tags inserted, even when following-up. This is the way it should be. The linux-usb, bsd-usb, and irda lists all use tags, and are very helpful. Again, I don't see what the issue is for inserting [C] or [CC] at the beginning. As for this robbing people of 4 characters on the subject: line - gimme a break! (Or should I pop into flippant mode: what, -you- don't use 132-column screens to read your email! How primitive!) ;-) -Mike p.s. For the humor impaired, please note the ;-) on the previous paragraph. On Sat, 5 Feb 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > I think Jay has turned them off, at least a couple of messages further down > seem to have them off, but the point is not how long they are, it is that > the software is too stupid to see "Re: [ClassicCMP]" and say "gee this > thing already has a tag on it, I'll leave it alone." Instead it adds > another one, so every reply adds 16 characters to the subject line. Tags > are evil. > > --Chuck > > At 06:05 PM 2/5/00 -0800, you wrote: > >I think just [C] or [CC] would be OK, too. > >-Mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 15:48:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: <002501bf70de$f9a73a00$91d993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 6, 0 07:43:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 883 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000206/3f8cb35a/attachment-0001.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 6 17:11:02 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: Ping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000206181102.3ebfab52@mailhost.intellistar.net> Zane, Did you get this? If so, you're still on the list. If not, well ..... Joe At 12:13 PM 2/6/00 -0800, you wrote: >The list still here? I have a hard time believing zero posts since last night. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Feb 6 16:11:34 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? Message-ID: <10002062211.ZM8839@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Apologies if anyone already got this; I originally posted it during what seems to have been an outage, and I assume the original is lost... On Feb 5, 20:19, Chuck McManis wrote: > At 12:31 AM 2/6/00 +0000, ete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) wrote: ^^^ ete? :-) > >On Feb 5, 14:47, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > Does anyone know if RSX-11M 4.0 supports MSCP drives? > > > >4.x certainly does, but I can't remember exactly which interfaces. > >The earliest MSCP support appeared in 3.x, I think. Nope, Pete was wrong again. It looks like MSCP support first appeared in 4.0. And I never did get my RQDX3 to work under RSX-11 (but I never had a version later than 4.2). > Well it may be moot if the tape is destroyed, however the plan was to > install it on an 11/23 using a Sigma RQDE11 (Webster licensed) board. I can > tell it to report back to RSX any set of disks I would like. The trick is > whether or not RSX will do the MSCP thing. (RT-11 won't for example until > 5.1 :-() I've never done an install from tape, except to recover a backup, and then what matters is what standalone BRU or DSC supports. In 4.2 at least, BRU and BRU64K.SYS (the standalone) do support MSCP, but the manual only lists RA80/RA60/RA81/RC25/RD51/RX50 disks (and no MSCP tapes at all). DSC only supports the RA80; standalone DSC has no MSCP support at all in 4.2. I'd expect 4.0 supports even less. The list above implies RQDX1 support and other things, but not RQDX3. That might be a problem, because I think there's a bug in the early DU: handler that prevents it working with RQDX3s. I certainly never got RSX-11 4.2 to work with any RQDX3, and the same bug might apply to a 3rd-party controller. Best way to find out is to try it. I reckon there's a reasonable chance it will work, especially if your disk controller works with RT-11 5.1. In RT-11, full MSCP support post-dates even 5.1. 5.1 works with RQDX1/2, but not RQDX3, for example; because whoever wrote the DU: handler ignored the MSCP documentation and made an unwarranted assumption about the contents of the SA register during initialisation. It took me ages to trace the problem and fix it :-). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Feb 6 16:11:36 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:34 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Re: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST Message-ID: <10002062211.ZM8843@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Apologies if anyone already got this; I originally posted it during what seems to have been an outage, and I assume the original is lost... On Feb 5, 20:16, Chuck McManis wrote: > I'd send to Gary but, you know ... > > Go to the options panel and turn off "use microsoft viewer" and it wont > convert to HTML. It will still "flow" it however. So this message has been > "flowed" by Eudora, can anyone confirm or deny that it is in HTML or RTF? > (I see it as having two change bar type things on the left side. Neither, it's flat text; no HTML, no attachments. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 6 17:17:34 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000206155908.00b5fdd0@206.231.8.2> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000206181734.3ccf38cc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, Has anyone got a manual for one of these? I picked one up with three pods (z-80, 8085 and 6800) but didn't get a manual. Joe From aek at spies.com Sun Feb 6 17:04:41 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter Message-ID: <200002062304.PAA30269@spies.com> "Has anyone got a manual for one of these?" Yes, I have extensive documentation at www.spies.com/arcade/schematics along with a lot of other information classiccmp folke will find usefu. From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 6 17:18:57 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? Message-ID: <200002062318.SAA15586@world.std.com> ; frommac@Wireless.Com on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 11:18:55AM -0800<20000205114512.B17681@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <03b701bf70fd$884dcc60$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Mike, > I don't mind a subject thing, but maybe shorter? PLEASE NO, NOT AT ALL! Just look at the subject line of this message already, and I've seen worse on later messages. If Majordomo could delete the extra "Re: [ClassicCMP]" tags, leaving a single "[ClassicCMP]" (followed by "Re:" as required) then fine. As it is, the current system makes a mess of the subject column making it difficult to see message titles. With the amount of traffic this list generates anything which makes it easier to decide which messages to read and which not to read is highly desirable - the current proliferation of superfluous tags makes it considerably more difficult. :-( As other people have pointed out, all mailers which allow sorting of mail into folders will allow you to sort on various fields in the header. All you have to do is look for the mailing list address in the "To:" field.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From ss at allegro.com Sun Feb 6 18:19:50 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: [CC] Tags are great In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002070020.QAA09817@opus.allegro.com> Re: > This is the way it should be. The linux-usb, bsd-usb, and irda lists all > use tags, and are very helpful. But needless. A decent mail program can filter based on sender, so the message subject is redundant information. That should be "QED", but... > As for this robbing people of 4 characters on the subject: line - gimme a > break! It matters! Pegasus (3.12), even on a 21" monitor running 1600x1200 seems to refuse to display more than about 35 characters of subject heading in a folder (no matter how wide I resize that column of the window) ...why? I don't know! In short, when people complain...sometimes it's because they have a valid reason to complain. (Sometimes, of course, they don't :) sieler@allegro.com Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From mbg at world.std.com Sun Feb 6 18:19:52 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? Message-ID: <200002070019.TAA16359@world.std.com> >In RT-11, full MSCP support post-dates even 5.1. 5.1 works with RQDX1/2, >but not RQDX3, for example; because whoever wrote the DU: handler ignored >the MSCP documentation and made an unwarranted assumption about the >contents of the SA register during initialisation. It took me ages to >trace the problem and fix it :-). MSCP support was added in V5.0 -- but there were some problems, not the least of which was the fact that it setup the interface such that if you didn't do any disk access for a minute, the disk would go off line. This was corrected in a patch for V5.0 and in the distributed V5.1, at which time it also worked with RQDX2... support for RQDX3 and other similar interfaces wasn't out until V5.2... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sun Feb 6 18:22:49 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? Message-ID: <200002070022.TAA17842@world.std.com> >Dont tell mine RT11 V5.01c system then as the RQDX3 runs just fine. To >the best of my knowlege RQDXn are interchangeable (I have done that) with >one exception... the drive must be formatted for the RQDX3 as it's >apparently different from the 1/2. Full RQDX3 support was not in the *base* system until V5.2. Prior to that, it was a patch release for V5.1, which is why it works in V5.1c Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Feb 6 18:39:19 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: TF85 internals Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000206163707.01be0b90@mcmanis.com> This apparently didn't make it out to the list. I was cleaning a TF85 (DSSI desktop model) and discovered that the drive talks to a bridgeboard that talks DSSI. The connector to the drive is the same number of pins as the TK70 drive. My question is whether or not one can drive the TK85 mechanism from a TQK70. I ask because I would like to put the drive inside a cabinet (BA213) and would rather not have the bridge board laying in there as well. --Chuck From Mzthompson at aol.com Sun Feb 6 18:54:46 2000 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: Ping Message-ID: <7b.13e8c91.25cf71d6@aol.com> Upon the date 12:13 PM 2/6/00 -0800, Zane H. Healy said something like: >> The list still here? I have a hard time believing zero posts since last >> night. And then Christian Fandt graciously replied, astutely noting that: > Well, everybody was plumb wore out from all the list operation discussions :-) Boy, I'll say. I skim through the digest keying on the text 'Subject:'. I wore out one mouse trying to get through the likes of: : Subject: Re: [ClassicCMP] Re: ClassicCMP Re: [ClassicCmp] Tag requested in Subject: line : >> I am aware of no mail filters which only allow filtering on Subject:. > Seems to work very well now! May even be good enough to discuss the collection, restoration, and sharing of knowledge about classic computers. I have been on this list since mid-97, and Zane & Chris probably just as long, if not longer. We all know that we don't need '[ClassicCMP]' in the subject line since we have done without for this long. I for one will not debate it beyond this one posting, because it being or not being there makes no difference to me. I might suggest that if there are those wanting to debate it further and if Jay is willing, then set up another list classicmp-admin and discuss away. Meanwhile back at the ranch, I took the trash from my wife's shop out back to the dumpster. I noticed a mouse (two-button, not four-legged) in the dumpster. That led to a keyboard and on to a 386 PC. I know, I know, whoopee! Hey another spare mouse, keyboard, floppy drive never hurts. And there is a small chance that I will soon be hauling home a stack of DECstation 5000's and associated goodies. And one last soapbox point. I do not recall any postings yet, thanking Jay for all the efforts with regards to the list. Given all the flak, I would probably have used the ON/OFF switch by now. Why don't we flood this list one last time with some words of appreciation, and then you can tell all of us about your latest finds, etc. Mike Thompson From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 6 18:53:30 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter In-Reply-To: <200002062304.PAA30269@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000206195330.21bf09fe@mailhost.intellistar.net> Al, Great! Thanks. BTW did you ever send me the payment for the DEC books? I'm not sure I ever got it. Joe At 03:04 PM 2/6/00 -0800, you wrote: >"Has anyone got a manual for one of these?" > >Yes, I have extensive documentation at www.spies.com/arcade/schematics along >with a lot of other information classiccmp folke will find usefu. > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Feb 6 19:05:02 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? In-Reply-To: Allison J Parent "Re: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives?" (Feb 6, 18:18) References: <200002062318.SAA15586@world.std.com> Message-ID: <10002070105.ZM9913@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 6, 18:18, Allison J Parent wrote: > > define full? Supports all the QBus controllers. OK, that's not very full :-) > > Dont tell mine RT11 V5.01c system then as the RQDX3 runs just fine. To > the best of my knowlege RQDXn are interchangeable Maybe it depends on the firmware then, but I can assure you that the bug certainly exists, and lots of people other than me found it and suffered from it. The particular bug is that the RQDXn (and other MSCP controllers) return some flags in the top 4 bits of the SA register during initialisation. On the RQDX1 and RQDX2, the rest of the register contains zeros, and the driver code depends on that -- IIRC, there are three places where it does a BNE on the result. The RQDX3 of the same vintage as 5.01, however, returns the interrupt vector in the bottom bits of SA, so the BNE doesn't work as desired. Actually, there's slightly more to it than that, but that's the basics. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From KB9VU at aol.com Sun Feb 6 19:54:03 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Heath H89 diskette request Message-ID: <26.1842b62.25cf7fbb@aol.com> I have a box of 10+ used hard sector floppies and a box of new hard sector disks for you. 8^) Mike, KB9VU CCA# 404 MARS AFA3BO Florissant, MO From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Feb 6 18:15:50 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: HTML: was Re: Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST References: <012701bf6f63$cd365a40$d402a8c0@tse.com> <10002050129.ZM7046@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20000205020448.24621.qmail@brouhaha.com> <002401bf70de$f82e55a0$91d993c3@proteus> <20000206154429.A14667@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <047a01bf7119$372117e0$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Rich, > If we do end up bouncing MIME'd messages, please don't block >PGP/MIME signatures.... Excellent points. It's starting to sound complicated though, is Majordomo going to be able to handle this, or is modifying it going to be a BIG job? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Feb 6 18:40:19 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: [CC] Tags are great References: Message-ID: <047d01bf7119$39ae2b60$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Mike, > If people had chosen to be observant, they would have noticed >-no- other subject had multiple tags inserted, even when >following-up. Yes, but that was difficult to see when viewing the message titles together in a thread. Which was what my objection to this was all about. > Again, I don't see what the issue is for inserting [C] or [CC] >at the beginning. Well, as long as the "[xxxx]" tag were to always appear only at the beginning of the subject line then I don't see a problem either, IE "[xxxx] Subject" or "[xxxx] Re: Subject". I'm certainly not a fan of such tags, but as long as they're used sensibly and don't become a problem then I personally don't care about them. > (Or should I pop into flippant mode: what, -you- don't use 132 >-column screens to read your email! How primitive!) ;-) Naa, only about 100 odd here.... ;-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Feb 6 20:25:18 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: <200001262244218.SM00188@kernst> <3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Joe, >....As you've probably figured out by now, the 150s aren't >entirely IBM compatible.... I think that qualifies as the biggest understatement of the year so far. :-)) >....If your machine is a box with squared corners and the >expansion cards are mounted vertical behind the monitor then >it's a TouchScreen II.... I can't speak for the person who posted the original message, but that's certainly the machine I have. >....If the machine has nice rounded edges and the expansion cards >are horizontal in the bottom then it's the original HP 150.... If that's the one which looks very much like the terminals HP supply with their HP 3000 series mainframes then I'd very much like to get my hands on one (not to mention an HP-120 or 125). >....Both drives are AC powered. The HP 9123 drive is exactly the >same as the 9122 except that it has no power supply and gets it's >power from the TS II.... Hmm, that sounds like the drive box I have (dual drive version) - I can't actually get to it to check right now though. > The Touch Screen feature is standard on the 150 but optional on >the TS-II. Strange! I've never seen a Touch Screen on a TS-II. I >don't think many buyers added it. That's my theory too. I know Tony's seen a few, but all the unit's I've seen (admittedly only a handfull) hadn't had the touch screen added - though I suppose they could've been removed and been sold off seperately. > Let me know if you have any specific questions. Well, at the moment what I really want is to find somewhere in the UK where I can find some RAM boards for it (I have none) and a hard drive - preferably without having to part with an arm and a leg. Oh, are the rear panels hard to come by, mine is missing? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Feb 6 19:29:20 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: AS400-C10 References: Message-ID: <047e01bf7119$3a7795e0$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Paul, > By the look of the IBM docs, the >C10 models appear to support >more than one bus, so it could very well be. This is the thing, I don't know whether the bus in the expansion cabinet constitutes and extension to the existing bus or another bus altogether. Sadly I have NO documentation other than that ".pdf" handbook I grabbed from IBMs site. :-( > Someone was kind enough to handwrite a 16 hexadecimal digit number >labeled "Sys Pw" on the inside of the case. Does that sound the >right format for a system security number? >From the little I know I'd guess that sounds correct. I don't have the number for mine, and I'm having a devil of a time finding out how to find out the number (IYKWIM). >....It is not the serial number which like on a RS/6000 appears on >the front panel in a xx-xxxxx format. Uh oh, do RS series machines need some type of system security number too then? > Mine also does not want to boot, but I believe that is because I >don't have a console hooked up yet. Yes, you do indeed need a console attached to the system in order for it to boot. >....I had to disassemble the whole machine to get the pedestal unit >light enough to lift into my trunk/back seat. I left the boards in mine when I came to move it, but I did have to take out all the drives and the power supplies. Even then it wasn't exactly easy to shift. > I took apart what appeared to be the CPU board last night.... I haven't gotten up the courage to do that myself yet. That said I'm going to have to take all of the modules in mine apart and give them a good cleaning - the amount of dust and gunge in the machine is incredible. > I did not see anything that resembled RAM anywhere but on the >main CPU board, so I assume mine has the default 8 meg of memory. I was wondering where the RAM was on the thing, from what I've been able to find out thus far none of the cards in mine appear to be RAM boards. > I worked at a city hall as an intern in college in the early 90's >and wrote various RPG queries on the AS400. I probably have not >touched an AS400 since. I haven't touched a working system myself since '98. I was working at a local engineering company looking after several HP mainframes - I forget the exact model numbers but ISTR they were 3000 series machines (they ran MPE/ix anyway) - and we had an AS/400 which was about to be decomissioned when I started there....and it was still there when I left. I never got ANY training on the thing. All I knew how to do was to initiate the monthly BACS transfer and print off our pay slips. :-( > Thanks, and keep me posted if you have any progress. No problem, but with all the other projects I have on my plate this one keeps getting pushed aside for another day. :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Feb 6 18:23:49 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: HTML in Email References: <200002062134.QAA09079@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <047b01bf7119$37f22380$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Sean, > Unless you were on the list in January of 1999, you wouldn't >have seen the message I quoted.... Sorry, I didn't realise the quote was from such an old message. I didn't join the list until last May. > He was saying that HTML *itself* only adds about 5% to plain >text.... Fair enough, I didn't realise that. I thought he was referring to the overall size of the HTML encoded message. >....but most of these so called HTML editors are really bad and >bloat the HTML out quite a bit. Tell me about it. Since I haven't take the time to sit down and learn HTML coding yet I use FrontPage, you want to look at that for a prime example of bloated HTML production....I've heard tales of some pages being three times larger than they could be mentioned in the FP newsgroup. :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Feb 6 19:32:07 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: AS400-C10 References: Message-ID: <047f01bf7119$3b51c940$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Zane, > Anyone got a URL for this? Sorry, I found it on IBM's website after a LOT of rummaging around. I'll see if I can't figure out roughly where I found it and get back to you. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Sun Feb 6 20:39:17 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: Message-ID: <048101bf7119$3cf56720$91d993c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > I've never seen a combined RAM and HPIL board. Are you >_sure_ ? Well, I've never seen one, but the HP-150 FAQ mentions a "45915A: 384k RAM memory with HP-HIL interface". I haven't really done any digging on the HP yet, all I know is what I've learnt by reading the FAQ. > The add-on cards I have are: OK, the FAQ mentions the following cards: 45630A: 128k RAM memory expansion 45631A: 256k RAM memory expansion 45632A: 384k RAM memory expansion 45915A: 384k RAM memory with HP-HIL interface 45890A: Expanded memory board with 512k of RAM 45891A: Additional 256k RAM for board. and 45914A: HP-HIL card for the 150A and 150B. 45643A: HP-IL and parallel printer interface board. 45640A: 1200 baud modem card for HP 150A/B 45640B: 1200 baud modem card for HP 150 II. I've no idea how exhaustive list this is, I'd guess not very since the 2Mb RAM board you have isn't mentioned. >> (I've NEVER seen a machine with the touch screen BTW). > > I can confirm that it does exist, at least for the 150-II. No, I wasn't suggesting it didn't - just that for some reason all the ones I've ever seen (at radio rallies mostly) have been without the touch screen.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From mew_jac at swbell.net Sun Feb 6 21:13:43 2000 From: mew_jac at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: Convex Mini-SuperComputer Message-ID: <0FPJ00CZKIATDF@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> If any of the serious Big Iron collectors are interested in a Convex there is one being decommissioned in Houston. This will be a large hall. If no one picks this thing up it will sit in the Houston weather for a year or so and be melted down. This is the second Convex I've run across in the last few months, surely not many more left. If your serious about moving a few thousand pounds of supercomputer Email me for the details. -- From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Feb 6 21:20:30 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: HP System available in Oregon Message-ID: Don't ask any specifics, I don't know them, and I've not seen the system. The Hillsboro "Wacky Willies" currenty has a largish HP system in back (you'd have to ask about it, I was in there yesterday and didn't even see it as they've blocked of the entire back half of the store). From what I was told it's at least one 19" rack, and bunch of terminals, lots of documentation, and I think tapes. I gather it might be something like a 735? Again, I know nothing about this system, someone I know that messes with DEC and Sun stuff spotted it and thought I might know someone that's interested. He said it's *over* a pickup worth of stuff! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bsa3 at cornell.edu Sun Feb 6 21:22:22 2000 From: bsa3 at cornell.edu (Brad Ackerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: Apple manuals available for download Message-ID: <20000206222222.A22161@cornell.edu> Apple has released about thirteen years worth of product manuals in Acrobat format; the URL is . Unfortunately, the covered time period starts with the IIci and Portable, which are topical by the ten-year rule, but we can always hope for more... -- Brad Ackerman N1MNB "You're a cyborg -- look it up." bsa3@cornell.edu Wandering Gweep -- Bradley Rhodes, to Josh Weaver PGP: 0x62D6B223 http://skaro.pair.com/ IAP lecture, 21 January 2000 From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 6 20:45:58 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: Wanted: software & docs for Intel Series II & III MDS "blue boxes" Message-ID: <20000207024558.5705.qmail@brouhaha.com> I just acquired an Intel Series III MDS "blue box", to go along with several Series IIs that I've had for a while. Unfortunately, I don't have any software or documentation for either the Series II or Series III, not even the ISIS operating system. If anyone has spares or could make copies available, it would be most appreciated. For those not familiar with the Intel blue boxes: The Series II MDS is Multibus-based, and has either an IPB-80 or IPC-85 CPU card, based on the 8080 and 8085, respectively. There's also an IOC (Input/Output Card) that supports all of the integral I/O devices such as the monitor, keyboard, serial ports, and single-density floppy disk. An external double-density floppy disk system can be added; it uses two Multibus cards, a channel card and an interface card, and apparently uses M2FM code rather than IBM 3740-compatible MFM. The Series II normally runs the ISIS operating system, although I hear there was also a version of CP/M. A Series III MDS is mostly the same as a Series II with an IPC-85, but it adds a two-board RPC-86, which is an 8086-based "Resident Processor Card". A software package called "RUN" acts as the loader and ISIS operating system interface for the 8086. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Feb 6 21:32:40 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <20000206.213242.185.3.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: Could any of you use a few RL02K-DC disk packs? I have three of them, shock-watches intact on two-- the third one doesn't have it. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Feb 6 21:43:10 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: TF85 internals In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000206163707.01be0b90@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: >This apparently didn't make it out to the list. > >I was cleaning a TF85 (DSSI desktop model) and discovered that the drive >talks to a bridgeboard that talks DSSI. The connector to the drive is the >same number of pins as the TK70 drive. My question is whether or not one >can drive the TK85 mechanism from a TQK70. I ask because I would like to >put the drive inside a cabinet (BA213) and would rather not have the bridge >board laying in there as well. > >--Chuck Hmmm, a TF85 would be the DSSI version of the TK85 (not sure that's the right name), which is either a DLT2000 or DLT4000, _I THINK_. Makes me wonder if the DLT drives have an interface into which you plug the hardware that determines what kind of drive interface it talks to into (i.e. Single Ended SCSI, Differental SCSI, DSSI, etc.). Unfortuantly when I've torn DLT7000's apart I don't tend to take time to notice such details so I'm really not sure what the interface looks about. Having said all that, I'd recommend you don't try it. If it works that's a good drive to have, and worth getting a DSSI interface if you don't already have one. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Feb 6 21:43:53 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: [ClassicCMP] Does RSX-11M 4.0 support MSCP drives? In-Reply-To: <10002062211.ZM8839@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: >I've never done an install from tape, except to recover a backup, and then >what matters is what standalone BRU or DSC supports. In 4.2 at least, BRU >and BRU64K.SYS (the standalone) do support MSCP, but the manual only lists >RA80/RA60/RA81/RC25/RD51/RX50 disks (and no MSCP tapes at all). DSC only >supports the RA80; standalone DSC has no MSCP support at all in 4.2. I'd >expect 4.0 supports even less. Wouldn't those be TMSCP tapes (it's T-something at least, I'm to tired to look it up, or remember)? V4.2 works just fine with TK50's, I've booted and restored it off TK50. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From marvin at rain.org Sun Feb 6 22:34:20 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: Thanks Jay Message-ID: <389E4B4C.F6DFE9B5@rain.org> I just thought it appropriate to say a public thanks to Jay for all the work done on the list in bringing it back up. It is MUCH appreciated!!! From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Feb 6 22:25:10 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: "Peter Pachla"'s message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2000 02:39:17 -0000" References: <048101bf7119$3cf56720$91d993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <200002070425.UAA86423@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Peter Pachla" wrote: > No, I wasn't suggesting it didn't - just that for some reason all the ones > I've ever seen (at radio rallies mostly) have been without the touch > screen.... By the time of the Touchscreen II, lots of us who had deployed 150A/Bs had concluded that while the 150 wasn't that bad, touch screens were not all that they were cracked up to be. You had to take a hand off the keyboard and reach up and touch the screen, and if you had to do this a lot it resulted in a sort of fatigue that was called "gorilla arm", and there were usually ways to do what you wanted from the keyboard (either a function key or tab around some and then press a function key or Enter). So most users didn't bother with it after the novelty wore off. So when it became an extra-cost option we really couldn't see paying for it. Besides, who wants a bunch of fingertip-sized smudges on the screen? -Frank McConnell From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Feb 6 23:11:41 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: "Peter Pachla"'s message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2000 02:25:18 -0000" References: <200001262244218.SM00188@kernst> <3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net> <048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <200002070511.VAA87749@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Peter Pachla" wrote: > If that's the one which looks very much like the terminals HP supply with > their HP 3000 series mainframes then I'd very much like to get my hands on > one (not to mention an HP-120 or 125). There are two styles of 150. One is the 150A/B, and in rough outline it looks something like a 120 or 2382 terminal but does have different casework from those. These models have a 9-inch display screen; I think the only differences between A and B are the ROM'd firmware and accompanying MS-DOS version (and I do recall that it was possible to upgrade a 150A to a 150B with a firmware-and-software swap) but someone else may know better. Then there is the 150-II aka 150C aka Touchscreen II. It's in a boxy enclosure with tiltable 12" display screen. I think the 2392 terminal might have similar styling (2393 does not, it uses the 37531A pale green-screen monitor with the terminal logic in a separate box). After HP introduced the Vectra (PC-compatible, at least more so than the 150) and 150 sales dropped off, and ran out of 2647F terminals, HP started shipping 150-IIs as consoles for /68 and /70 systems. (Maybe /64s too.) Unfortunately I have no idea what kind of terminals HP sell these days. 700/9x? I don't think they ever made a 150 that looks like those, although they did make some monochrome VGA monitors in a similarly-styled case. -Frank McConnell From edick at idcomm.com Sun Feb 6 23:32:01 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: Thanks Jay Message-ID: <000c01bf712c$a99865e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, indeed! Hats off to Jay! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: Classic Computers Date: Sunday, February 06, 2000 9:54 PM Subject: Thanks Jay > >I just thought it appropriate to say a public thanks to Jay for all the work >done on the list in bringing it back up. It is MUCH appreciated!!! From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Feb 7 08:55:01 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <200002070425.UAA86423@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <"Peter Pachla"'s message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2000 02:39:17 -0000"> <048101bf7119$3cf56720$91d993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000207095501.3e4713e4@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:25 PM 2/6/00 -0800, Frank wrote: > >By the time of the Touchscreen II, lots of us who had deployed 150A/Bs >had concluded that while the 150 wasn't that bad, touch screens were >not all that they were cracked up to be. You had to take a hand off >the keyboard and reach up and touch the screen, and if you had to do >this a lot it resulted in a sort of fatigue that was called "gorilla >arm", I feel that same way about using a mouse. I use the WinDoze keyboard short cuts as much as possible. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Feb 7 08:51:40 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: Wanted: software & docs for Intel Series II & III MDS "blue boxes" In-Reply-To: <20000207024558.5705.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000207095140.3e479b52@mailhost.intellistar.net> Eric, I have a Series II model 235 with lots of upgrades. I have a big pile of stuff for the Series II. Here's a list: Intellec Series II CRT and Keyboard Interface Manual Intellec Series II Microcomputer Development System Boot/Monitor Listing Intellec Series II Model 22X/23X Installation Manual Change 1 Installation Instructions Double Density Upgrade Kit Model 503 Rev B Intellec Double Density Diskette Operating System Hardware Reference Manual Book 2. (It's here somewhere! Just gotta find it!) Book 3. PL/M-86 Programming Manual for 8080/8085-Based Development Systems #9800466-003 Rev C MCS-86 Assembly Language Converter Operating Instructions for ISIS-II Users #9800642-02 ASM86 Macro Assembler Operating Instructions for 8086-Bases Systems #121628-003 iAPX 86,88 Family Utilities User’s Guide # 121616-003 iAPX 86,88 Family Utilities User’s Guide # 121616-002 ASM86 Language Reference Manual #121703-002 Book 4. Intellec Series III Microcomputer Development System Product Overview Intellec Series III Microcomputer Development System Programmer’s Reference Manual ISIS Credit CRT-based Text Editor User’s Guide Alter Text Editor User’s Guide iUP-200/201 Universal Programmer User’s Guide Order Number 162613-002 iUP-200/201 Universal Programmer User’s Guide Order Number 162613-001 ICE-86 In-Circuit Emulator Operating Instructions for ISIS-II Users ICE-86A/ICE-88A MicroSystem In-Circuit Emulator Operating Instructions for ISIS-II Users Book 5. ASM86 Language Reference Manual #121703-002 8086/8087/8088 Macro Assembly Language Reference Manual for 8086-Based Development Systems #121627-001 Rev A MCS-86 Assembly Language Converter Operating Instructions for ISIS-II Users ICE-86 In-Circuit Emulator Operating Instructions for ISIS-II Users iAPX 86,88 Family Utilities User’s Guide for 8086-Based Development Systems #121616-001 Rev A ISIS-II User’s Guide Book 6. Intellec Series II Microcomputer Developement System Schematic Drawings Order Number 9800554-04 Rev D Book 7. Intellec Series II Microcomputer Developement System Double-Density Diskette Subsystem Order Number 9800425-02 Rev B Book 8. Product Service Support Plan, product MDS-5055 (internal Intel Document) Book 9. A guide to Intellec Microcomputer Developement Systems Order Number 9800558B I also have a bunch of software for it but I haven't made a list. I think all the SW is on DD 8" disks. At 02:45 AM 2/7/00 -0000, you wrote: >I just acquired an Intel Series III MDS "blue box", to go along with >several Series IIs that I've had for a while. > >Unfortunately, I don't have any software or documentation for either >the Series II or Series III, not even the ISIS operating system. If >anyone has spares or could make copies available, it would be most >appreciated. > >For those not familiar with the Intel blue boxes: > >The Series II MDS is Multibus-based, and has either an IPB-80 or IPC-85 >CPU card, based on the 8080 and 8085, respectively. Yes, they came with a 8080 but the 8085 card was available as an upgrade. Mine has it. There's also an IOC >(Input/Output Card) that supports all of the integral I/O devices such >as the monitor, keyboard, serial ports, and single-density floppy disk. >An external double-density floppy disk system can be added; The internal drives could also be upgraded to DD. See the 4th book above. Mine has been upgraded. I also have an external box with two DD drives. it uses two >Multibus cards, a channel card and an interface card, and apparently uses >M2FM code rather than IBM 3740-compatible MFM. The Series II normally runs >the ISIS operating system, although I hear there was also a version of CP/M. I've never found CPM for them but if you read Digital Research's CPM manuals you'll notice that the CPM source code that they use was written for an Intel MDS. > >A Series III MDS is mostly the same as a Series II with an IPC-85, but >it adds a two-board RPC-86, which is an 8086-based "Resident Processor >Card". A software package called "RUN" acts as the loader and ISIS >operating system interface for the 8086. I don't don't have that. :-( Let me know if you want to borrow this stuff. Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Feb 7 09:01:19 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <200002070511.VAA87749@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <"Peter Pachla"'s message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2000 02:25:18 -0000"> <200001262244218.SM00188@kernst> <3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net> <048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000207100119.3e47fa9a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:11 PM 2/6/00 -0800, Frank wrote: >"Peter Pachla" wrote: >> If that's the one which looks very much like the terminals HP supply with >> their HP 3000 series mainframes then I'd very much like to get my hands on >> one (not to mention an HP-120 or 125). I have both. I like the little one better. The 120 takes up too much room. The 125 is the same size as the HP 9816 (aka 9000 216.) > >There are two styles of 150. One is the 150A/B, and in rough outline >it looks something like a 120 or 2382 terminal but does have different >casework from those. These models have a 9-inch display screen; I >think the only differences between A and B are the ROM'd firmware and >accompanying MS-DOS version (and I do recall that it was possible to >upgrade a 150A to a 150B with a firmware-and-software swap) but >someone else may know better. You're correct. You had to install the later firmware before you could use MS-DOS 3.x I think the later firmware also supports more drive types. I still have one upgrade kit here somewhere. > >Then there is the 150-II aka 150C aka Touchscreen II. It's in a boxy >enclosure with tiltable 12" display screen. I think the 2392 terminal >might have similar styling (2393 does not, it uses the 37531A pale >green-screen monitor with the terminal logic in a separate box). I think that's the 2793 box. I shipped some to Stan P. last year. > >After HP introduced the Vectra (PC-compatible, at least more so than >the 150) and 150 sales dropped off, and ran out of 2647F terminals, HP >started shipping 150-IIs as consoles for /68 and /70 systems. (Maybe >/64s too.) > >Unfortunately I have no idea what kind of terminals HP sell these >days. 700/9x? They did sell a lot of 700/92 s. I don't know if that's still the current model or not. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Feb 7 08:33:23 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> References: <200001262244218.SM00188@kernst> <3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000207093323.3e4737e6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Pete, >I can't speak for the person who posted the original message, but that's >certainly the machine I have. > > >....If the machine has nice rounded edges and the expansion cards > >are horizontal in the bottom then it's the original HP 150.... > >If that's the one which looks very much like the terminals HP supply with >their HP 3000 series mainframes then I'd very much like to get my hands on >one (not to mention an HP-120 or 125). What model termainal are you for? I have no idea what they supply with the 3000 but I see piles of 700/92 terminals in a local scrap yard. I have several 35712s (I think that's the right number). > > >....Both drives are AC powered. The HP 9123 drive is exactly the > >same as the 9122 except that it has no power supply and gets it's > >power from the TS II.... > >Hmm, that sounds like the drive box I have (dual drive version) - I can't >actually get to it to check right now though. It probably is. They seem to be standard with the TS-II. BTW some of these models had different names in Europe. I don't remember the details now but I did see a message showing the differences once. It's just something that you may want to keep in mind when you start discussing them. > > > > The Touch Screen feature is standard on the 150 but optional on > >the TS-II. Strange! I've never seen a Touch Screen on a TS-II. I > >don't think many buyers added it. > >That's my theory too. I know Tony's seen a few, but all the unit's I've seen >(admittedly only a handfull) hadn't had the touch screen added - though I >suppose they could've been removed and been sold off seperately. If they did, then they replaced the bezel with a non-Touch Screen one. > > > > Let me know if you have any specific questions. > >Well, at the moment what I really want is to find somewhere in the UK where >I can find some RAM boards for it (I have none) and a hard drive - >preferably without having to part with an arm and a leg. I have plenty of hard drives. What model are you looking for? I have one here that has TS-II software already on it, I could probably copy it to another one for you. BTW I'm in Florida. Do you know anyone that's coming to Orlando that could bring one back to you? They're not exactly light. RAM: You should see if Tony can find a way to install 256K ics instead of the 64K ones. Most (all?) of the the Touch Screens that I see have 512K or less. I've never seen one with expanded memory. Oh, are the rear >panels hard to come by, mine is missing? Hmmm. I don't know where you'd get one without buying the whole machine but ask Jeff Kaneko ("jeff.kaneko@juno.com". I think he located a pile of TS-IIs a year or so ago. He may be able to send you a panel. > > > TTFN - Pete. > >-- >Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. >Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > >peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk >-- > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Feb 7 08:21:14 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <048101bf7119$3cf56720$91d993c3@proteus> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000207092114.3cbfc07a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:39 AM 2/7/00 -0000, you wrote: > > The add-on cards I have are: > >OK, the FAQ mentions the following cards: There seems to be a lot of third party cards for these as well. Several of mine have cards made by Evergreen in them. Joe From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Feb 7 08:11:54 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: Good work Jay! Message-ID: <4.1.20000207090809.00b3ec90@206.231.8.2> Hi Jay, Thanks much for your hosting of the classiccmp list! Thanks also for enduring the discussions regarding the "new" vs. "old" methods and HTML blocking, etc.! Some interesting bits of info came out of the many postings. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Feb 7 09:24:11 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: Batch OCR'ing from GIF's/TIFF's/bitmaps? Message-ID: <000207102411.25600835@trailing-edge.com> Folks on this list have expressed strong opinions in the past on the subject of how to best OCR old important documents. Recent donations to the DECUS archives here have resulted in several important abstract books that I want to link electronically (i.e. by HTTP) to the files already rescued from magnetic or punched paper media. (See, for example, http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/index.html for the TOPS-10 abstracts linked to the files from DECUS library tapes.) I've spent the past weekend playing with scanners and OCR on PC-clones running various Microsoft OS's. And, of course, I'm extremely unhappy with the point-and-drool misery of doing all of this - there's no reason I should have to click with the mouse for every single page I need converted. So the question: does anyone have recommendations (preferably for freeware, though I would be willing to spend a few hundred dollars for good tools, too) for software that will process already-scanned .GIF's/TIFF's/bitmaps through the OCR process unattended? Ideally there'd be a command line interface, something like ocr page*.gif > bigoutputfile.txt and ideally it would run under Linux as well, though I wouldn't complain too strongly if someone recommended a Windows solution. If it does run under Linux, it'd be *very* nice for batch processing if it didn't need X11 and mouse-point-and-drool interfacing. Tim. (shoppa@trailing-edge.com) From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Feb 7 09:47:04 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: From Usenet: pdp-8 Available Message-ID: <200002071547.HAA03170@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: Found on Usenet. Contact the poster directly. Kevin ----------------- I have an original model PDP-8 (core serial number 35) which I no longer have space for. It's the tabletop model with smoked plastic covers. I would like to give it to a museum that could take care of it and hopefully display it. If any of you know of a place that would be interested, please let me know. Thanks. Philip Lantz prl@mira.rain.com From west at tseinc.com Mon Feb 7 10:14:08 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: List server going down for maintenance Message-ID: <003701bf7186$5cf0bb20$d402a8c0@tse.com> Due to the hardware problems on the system that hosts the classiccmp list over the weekend, that machine will be going down for maintenance sometime today. The outtage is expected to last 2 hours at most. Regards, Jay West From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Feb 7 08:16:38 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: Thanks Jay Message-ID: <20000207.101611.-311713.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> I'll second that! Thanks Jay!! Jeff On Sun, 06 Feb 2000 20:34:20 -0800 Marvin writes: > > I just thought it appropriate to say a public thanks to Jay for all > the work > done on the list in bringing it back up. It is MUCH appreciated!!! ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Feb 7 11:24:20 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: Free Macintosh Classic Message-ID: Hi all, I've got a buddy with a Classic and Stylewriter that he's about to dumpster...does anyone want to pay postage on one of these? Or you can arrange to pick it up (I'm in Southern California - Glendora). Cheers, Aaron From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Feb 7 12:01:03 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: Token ring cards available Message-ID: <389F085E.35129E5B@bigfoot.com> Have 3 token ring cards to get rid of, nice ISA types that I assume are plug-n-play capable. They are as follows: 1) Intel token Express Pro 16/4 with manual. Has 9 pin din and RJ45 ports Jumperless card, 16 bit ISA 1) 3 Com 3C619B TokenLink III 16/4. Has status led's and 9 pin din and rj45 ports. Jumperless card, 16 bit ISA 1) 3Com 3C319 TokenLink Velocity ISA 16/4. Has status led's and 9 pin din and rj45 ports. Jumperless 16 bit ISA All drivers are available on Intel and 3Com's websites as well as manuals in PDF format. Cards are from working machines that got pulled off the network to become standalone units. They do not come with cables. Make me an offer or either cash or useful common PC items. Russ Blakeman Clarkson, KY From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Feb 7 12:29:48 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: SCSI floptical drive Message-ID: <20000207122948.P12002@mrbill.net> I picked up an external SCSI 21mb floptical drive (by PLI) this weekend; anybody have a use for it, or know where I can get media? Bill -- +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@pdp11.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | | http://www.sunhelp.org | http://www.pdp11.org | http://www.mrbill.net | +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Mon Feb 7 12:55:03 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: DEC stuff for trade Message-ID: I was at the local not-for-profit computer surplus and picked up the following DEC stuff 1. 2 TK25 tape drives in desktop cases 2. RD53 labeled disk drive although the disk inside the MicroVAX 2000 style case says RD52 3. tk50Z tape drive inside MicroVAX 2000 case 4. MicroVAX 2000 disk case 5. vax3100 style low profile expansion case 6. micro PDP 11/73+ in floor stand, the pdp 11/73+ boards are spoken for, probably running RSX-11M because of the number of terminal connections on the back of the machine. Anyone want the disk and case ? 7. micro pdp 11/23+ in floor stand, runs RSX-11M, boots and 8. 3 VT320's with keyboards Anyone interested, you pay minimal amount plus shipping? 1. I also picked up a AT&T Unix PC that boots up but is missing the keyboard, anybody know about compatible keyboards? 2. a HP 9862A pen plotter for desktop calculator, dust cover, an manual, but no cable 3. TI system 1100 that has 2 MB memory, dc300 tape, 5 1/4 floppy, and full height 5 1/4 internal disk drive I have my eyes on TK86 and TK867, both in deskside floor stands, before they go to China, are they currently usable? I also saw from afar some type of modular terminal connectors, I could read writing that says 90+ on them, they have a row of rj45 jacks on them and look like there are 4 or 5 mounted on plastic panel. Any idea what they are? Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Feb 7 14:11:39 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: <047b01bf7119$37f22380$91d993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <200002071913.UAA14855@mail2.siemens.de> > > He was saying that HTML *itself* only adds about 5% to plain > >text.... > Fair enough, I didn't realise that. I thought he was referring to the > overall size of the HTML encoded message. > >....but most of these so called HTML editors are really bad and > >bloat the HTML out quite a bit. > Tell me about it. Since I haven't take the time to sit down and learn HTML > coding yet I use FrontPage, you want to look at that for a prime example of > bloated HTML production....I've heard tales of some pages being three times > larger than they could be mentioned in the FP newsgroup. :-( Prime example ? Well, one can name it that way ... I still do 99% of my HTML stuff in notepad - maybe not realy a world class tool, but one get's used to it. And even the German umlauts are not exactly a problem ü unstead of an "u isn't that hard. Anyway, I once _had_ to use Frontpage to modify some pages I did, and they did not only tripple in size, but also these pages didn't render any longer correctly in some browser != MS-Explorer (And last but not least in my case, the code did become completly unreadable - why 1000 times set font attributes if I don't care for fonts at all ?) It is still possible to do Web pages that are readable in any browser type _and_ are still good loocking (assumed you use an actual Lynx version :). Ok, this means that one has to limit himself to real basic structures, and no fancy fonting and gimmicking, and _may_ increase the size more to 15% bigger than plain than including all the ALT tags etc, but it's worth. Well, I just belive I'm again part of a dieing species - even the W3C is about to drop some principles which have been root mechanisms of what's now the WEB. And for the list, I would go for c), the deHTMLifier. I'ts not that hard to programm in perl (or whatever). As for myself, I consider HTML as readable, just it happenes that most of the unwanted HTML stuff is done by MS or MS-alike tools that add way more noise than needed - so cut it off (*) Anyway Gruss H. (*) another way may be to heep the basic tags and just remove all the optional parameters - or, maybe even better use a HTML to Text converter. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Feb 7 13:14:53 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: Batch OCR'ing from GIF's/TIFF's/bitmaps? In-Reply-To: <000207102411.25600835@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000207131453.01691c60@pc> At 10:24 AM 2/7/00 -0500, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >So the question: does anyone have recommendations (preferably for >freeware, though I would be willing to spend a few hundred dollars for >good tools, too) for software that will process already-scanned >.GIF's/TIFF's/bitmaps through the OCR process unattended? Even the circa-1992, Win16, Caere OmniPage 2.11 I have can handle batch-processing an indefinite number of files. In the usual "you'll pay to get what you really want" mode of the software industry, I would guess that there are some very nice five- and six-figure document processing systems that would do the job. - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 12:40:20 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 7, 0 02:25:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2065 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000207/8288b1ad/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 12:49:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <048101bf7119$3cf56720$91d993c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 7, 0 02:39:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2468 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000207/9eddc49d/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 12:54:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: Good work Jay! In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000207090809.00b3ec90@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Feb 7, 0 09:11:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 491 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000207/bc6b477c/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 12:59:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:35 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000207093323.3e4737e6@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 7, 0 09:33:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1360 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000207/40c934df/attachment-0001.ksh From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Feb 7 13:37:38 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: DEC stuff for trade In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike" at "Feb 7, 2000 12:55:03 pm" Message-ID: <200002071937.OAA34634@bg-tc-ppp486.monmouth.com> > I was at the local not-for-profit computer surplus and picked up the > following DEC stuff > 1. 2 TK25 tape drives in desktop cases What's the capacity on these -- 150mb? > 6. micro PDP 11/73+ in floor stand, the pdp 11/73+ boards are spoken > for, probably running > RSX-11M because of the number of terminal connections on the back of > the machine. > Anyone want the disk and case ? I've got a couple of 11/23 boards and an RQDX3 (sans cables and stuff) I'd love to get this running. Think the 11/23+ or this 11/73+ would make it a good home. How large is this thing (backplane slots, Q22? etc)? > 7. micro pdp 11/23+ in floor stand, runs RSX-11M, boots and Sounds good... what drives are on this if any? > > Mike > mmcfadden@cmh.edu > > Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bpechter@monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org|pechter@pechter.bsdonline.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 7 13:52:12 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: Batch OCR'ing from GIF's/TIFF's/bitmaps? In-Reply-To: <000207102411.25600835@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/index.html > >for the TOPS-10 abstracts linked to the files from DECUS library >tapes.) Cool! I've got a question though, how was the stuff gotten into the computer in the first place? Not feeling very motivated this morning so I just ported the following to VMS BASIC: 10-190 BATTLESHIP, Version: 2, January 1974 http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0276/index.html Not sure if most of the work required was the result of 'space saving' features of the original platform, or if characters have been lost. There were a LOT of missing spaces, and a couple spots were missing a ';'. I was able to get it compiled on a Alpha, though got some wierd non-fatal errors. One things for sure, it was intended to be played on something like a DECwriter II! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 7 15:52:51 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: HTML in Email In-Reply-To: <200002071913.UAA14855@mail2.siemens.de> References: <047b01bf7119$37f22380$91d993c3@proteus> Message-ID: >> Tell me about it. Since I haven't take the time to sit down and learn HTML >> coding yet I use FrontPage, you want to look at that for a prime example of >> bloated HTML production....I've heard tales of some pages being three times >> larger than they could be mentioned in the FP newsgroup. :-( > >Prime example ? Well, one can name it that way ... I still do >99% of my HTML stuff in notepad - maybe not realy a world class >tool, but one get's used to it. And even the German umlauts are >not exactly a problem ü unstead of an "u isn't that hard. > >Anyway, I once _had_ to use Frontpage to modify some pages >I did, and they did not only tripple in size, but also these >pages didn't render any longer correctly in some browser != >MS-Explorer (And last but not least in my case, the code did >become completly unreadable - why 1000 times set font attributes >if I don't care for fonts at all ?) You know the amazing thing about this. I'm lazy, but won't use MS products so I use Adobe PageMill 3.0 on a Mac. It's got an option that lets you edit the source when you need to do little tweaks, AND it produces tight readable HTML. I could produce *slightly* smaller documents by hand (literally a few bytes is all), yet it wouldn't look anywhere near as good. The result looks good with old browsers and non-standard browsers, as well as new ones. Although I see the frames version is horrible under Lynx. As far as I'm concerned MS shouldn't be allowed to have any products that have ANYTHING to do with HTML! When I get an E-Mail message written in Outlook Express that contains one short sentence, and an entire page of unreadable garbage somethings is wrong. In the past I've seen message on this list that showed up as a blank page under Eudora Pro on my Mac because they were created with Lookout Express! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 15:59:17 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: JVC GD-H4220US multi-sync monitor help needed Message-ID: <20000207215917.15114.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> I was just gifted with a GD-H4220US monitor that isn't behaving as expected. My best Web research indicates that it is a 19" analog/digital RGB monitor (dual 9-pin connectors and a mode switch) with scan rates of 15-37Khz and 45-87 Hz. I have attached this device to an Amiga 3000, my 486 LRP box and a SPARC2 w/single-width CG6 (via the standard 1395 13W3 adapter). In no case does this monitor give me a locked, stable display. The CG6 does the best, but the top dozen lines do not align, giving a "torn" appearance. The Amiga 3000 (15.75Khz and 31Khz, both) produce at best, two copies of the video, one on the top half of the screen, one on the bottom half. The externally accessible controls are a bank of 4 pots with height, v alignment, width and h alignment icons, labelled A through D; an overscan enable switch; a "cancel preset" switch and the usual bright and contrast controls on the front. I am using two different adapters to convert the monitor's 9-pin RGB to the more common 15-pin high-density connector used today for VGA. One adapter is a short cable, source unknown, the other adapter came with my Amiga 3000. Both adapters produce the same results. I have color, I have video data. I appear to be lacking in the sync department. The only other specs I found on the H4220US is that is is H-V, +ve sync. What I'm not sure about is how common positive sync is these days (it may be the standard for all I know; I've seen negative sync stuff in the past) and whether or not my adapters are properly propogating the sync signals. There is, of course, the possibility that the monitor is defective, but I suspect wiring, first. Can anyone point me to a chart that has the older 9-pin RGB standard? I can verify my adapter, then. Also, I'm not sure what kind of sync a CG6 generates. Can someone shed some light there, too? It's a really awesome monitor, especially for the price. Even with the plastic cover off, it generates no audible noise, unlike every other monitor in the room. One drawback: 2.3A listed draw (4A fuse). That's a lotta watts to keep powered on. I have the covers off at the moment and can find no obvious place to tweak the sync circuit. The manufacturing date is 1989 and it does not appear to be microprocessor controlled. Nothing appears obviously smoked or disconnected. I do not have any documentation to go with this display. Thanks in advance, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 7 17:34:26 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: [CC] Wanted: Macintosh speech program called "Smooth Talker" Message-ID: <20000207233426.42926.qmail@hotmail.com> I am looking for a copy of the old Macintosh speech synthesizer program called "Smooth Talker" from First Byte. I had this program on a floppy that my electronics teacher gave to me last year, but the floppy has since worn out & I have been searching *everywhere* for a copy, but to no avail. If you have a copy, *do not* send me a disk image, as my Mac (original Mac upgraded to Mac Plus specs.) does not recognize them at all. I must ask, however, that it come on an 800K floppy, 400K is not enough space! I am looking for a driver for aforementioned Macintosh for an Apple Color Stylewriter 2400. I don't want that printer to be reduced to dust magnet status! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 17:48:54 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: Batch OCR'ing from GIF's/TIFF's/bitmaps? Message-ID: <20000207234854.27169.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > I've got a question though, how was the stuff gotten into the computer in > the first place? Not feeling very motivated this morning so I just ported > the following to VMS BASIC: > 10-190 BATTLESHIP, Version: 2, January 1974 > http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0276/index.html I just visited this link and was wondering what the crud on the last line of BT.BAS.1 was. Otherwise, good job. I'm sure there's a bunch of us whose early DEC experience was in the form of BASIC games, whether RSTS or OS/8 or whatever, and it all brings back the memories. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Tue Feb 8 17:46:47 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: FS: Mainframe and minicomputer manuals and control panels, and a complete storage technology collection. Message-ID: <002101bf728e$e72753e0$1a80b7d1@kstumpf> If you need or would like to buy these types of items, please send to me, in a private inquiry, a description of what you are looking for. I'll look for those item(s) and send a reply. Here is a slightly more detailed list: Mainframe manuals - all and any vendors - mostly theory of operation, functional specifications-type of manuals DEC maintenance manuals - just a few DEC handbooks - just a few Brochures - mainframe and minicomputers all in mint condition Pocket reference cards - mostly IBM 360 Tabulator manuals - Friden and IBM Tabulator plug board (just a small one) Control panels - mainframe and minicomputers Control consoles - IBM 705 and UNIVAC 1108 Punch cards - boxes (2 000 cards per box) of'em Collection of storage mediums - paper and magnetic including sonic delay line from IBM 2260 controller and core (would like to sell the collection complete, but will do what I must do) Auerbach library of Computer Technology Reports from 1962 to 1989 - hundreds of manuals and reports Books - mostly introduction to data processing or computers-type books Hope you find something you've been looking for. Yours in good faith Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile www.unusual.on.ca - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) Author & Publisher of The Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Feb 7 16:23:45 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <005901bf71b9$ff270920$b82ad1d8@default> Two weeks ago I *had* restored it.... and about every half hour it would break down with a different problem. I am posting this message in the hope that if anyone else ever has to restore such a nasty transistor mini then they can use this as a reference for *everything* that can go wrong with a minicomputer (excluding the power supply). First, the best methods I have found to eliminate the main problems in the most stubborn transistor minicomputers: 1) Bad contacts on backplane - Spray it with "Engine Gunk" (seriously, an automotive engine degreaser/cleaner), then stick a plain extender board with cloth wrapped around contacts and insert/remove a couple of times. Then use contact cleaner. 2) Weak Transistors - Lower the power supply voltage enough that poor transistors start to fail. 3) Thermal Transistor Breakdowns - (these are the Fairchild transistors that *always* fail due to the epoxy inside expanding and breaking contact). I recommend leaving the minicomputer on for 5 hours and let the poor transistors completely fail. Nothing worse than an intermittent one. BTW, I had 18 Flip Chips filled with this problem :-( (thanks for the info Allison!) 4) Intermittent Flip Chips - These occur in areas where the mini is running hot (ie: The MB register) and cause poor solder contacts which *might* be visible. I recommend pulling these altogether and replacing them. 100s of ticking timebombs. Get rid of all of them before you go insane. Use a digital thermometer and check for areas in excess of 115 degrees F (35 C). In the last 3 transistor minicomputers I have restored over the past 5 months I have found you will get a lot more intermittents if the mini was used *a lot* (ie: 12 years) and was stored in an area that varied greatly in temperature. 5) Expect your prints not to contain a complete schematic of the mini computer - I have found many changes to the straight-8, PDP-8/S that were not listed in FCOs but instead new prints were issued. (1960's) COMMON PDP-8/S Problems I have found: Since the speed at which data is switched through the PDP-8/S is *much* faster than the Straight-8 expect problems and replace/resolder the major registers and *ALL* pulse amplifiers. Most pulse amplifiers are switching at the maximum speed for such a Flip Chip (R602,603) so the slightest addition of resistance caused by a poor solder contact will cause endless problems. This PDP-8/S had the following problems (beyond the ones I mentioned before) Saul Dinman decided to add a *new* interrupt called "LPC", Low Power Condition. It will look like a negibus device interrupting the CPU but in fact is a few gates wired to the power monitor board. Of course, it only affects *PARTS* :-( of the CPU like... Parity! ,ION, and other nasty *bugs*. As the original 8/S did not have this installed it was not included in original prints :-(. I now found a third set with these mods... after spending a couple of hours pulling my hair out. After polling for interrupts and a memory parity error it is safe to conclude it is a low poer condition. Thanks Saul! Of course, everything else *only* failed when the CPU was running a program.. It's OLD instruction set was: ========================================= ION when an external device draws *just* enough power when being accessed to cause an LPC rather than an IO Interrupt :-(. Clear Accumulator Sometimes - (external device control) when warm and only when running a program and oscilloscope is not connected. Move AC->MB , 99 out of 100 times asked to. Stall CPU Clock 1mS - no longer or it might be seen without scope. and my favorite... If Zero, Branch Sometimes - BUT branch always in SI mode. ========================================================================= The PDP-8/S has now been running for over 6 hours and every major "bit" junction has been checked for a poor signal - all Fairchild's removed and buried. The desktop 8/S is a micro-sauna which means I will probably install fast boxer fans in place of the two eggbeaters currently installed in the back. My rackmount 8/s has 4 fans along the sides of the boards + 2 blowers, one above and one below. I am installing a 20ma->RS232 converter and will get this mini connected to Telnet with FOCAL loaded as quickly as I can. This mini needs a good month of continuous running to make sure it is finally... happy. PAPER TAPE: If anyone here is using a PC0 with a PC01 controller (Straight-8, or 8/S) I found internal mods used at DEC to increase the read speed from 300CPS to 650CPS... error free! 8/S *really* loads FOCAL fast now! I hope when I get a KA10 it isn't filled with the nasty problems this one had. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Feb 7 18:21:47 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: Dec LK401 keyboards In-Reply-To: <20000207215917.15114.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I picked up half a dozen or so terminal keyboards today, mostly Digital LK401-AA (I think), a couple are Telex with a big round 5 pin that looks PC. I also have a couple spare RJ11 things from keyboards that didn't look so nice. Up to half the batch I will offer to members of this list for $6 each and shipping, the rest go to eBay since they sell for $20 each (listed as Dec VAX keyboards). From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Feb 7 18:24:14 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: Good work Jay! References: <4.1.20000207090809.00b3ec90@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <389F622E.8F038B06@idirect.com> >Christian Fandt wrote: > Hi Jay, > > Thanks much for your hosting of the classiccmp list! Thanks also for > enduring the discussions regarding the "new" vs. "old" methods and HTML > blocking, etc.! Some interesting bits of info came out of the many postings. Jerome Fine also adds: Thanks from this location as well. From bill at chipware.com Mon Feb 7 18:32:45 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: Electrolytic capacitors and other picture postcards. Message-ID: <001301bf71cc$0482c7d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Well, my OSI C3D is currently non-functional. Here's what happened: I've been testing and repairing a number of OSI 48-pin bus cards using the C3. This has required a large number of power cycles. Also, several cards caused the PS fuse (2A, 250 volt, glass cartridge) to blow. In each case, this problem was corrected by replacing the electrolytic caps on the offending board. OSI used 47 microfarad, 16 volt ecaps (ecaps... is this a good abbreviation? I'm getting tired of typing "electrolytic") pretty much exclusively. I could not find a source for these, so I used 47mf, 36 volt ecaps as replacements. This seemed to work OK. I finished working on the other cards and tried to bring up the machine with just the original cards. The fuse blew. Grrr... I pulled all of the cards, replaced the fuse and tried them one at a time. Sure enough, the CPU card (the model 510, triple CPU card with 6800, 6502 and 8080) was the culprit. I replaced its two ecaps as per above. It came up, rebooted once OK, started to get flakey and now won't come up at all. Is my understanding of ecaps correct? That is, as long as the capacitance is correct, the voltage is greater or equal to the required load and it is installed "right way around" it should be OK? There is so much logic on this board, a lot of it 8Txx, I hope I haven't blown a chip. It would take me a month to find it and who knows if I could get a replacement. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Feb 7 18:24:59 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: [CC] Wanted: Macintosh speech program called "Smooth Talker" In-Reply-To: <20000207233426.42926.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >I am looking for a copy of the old Macintosh speech synthesizer program >called "Smooth Talker" from First Byte. I had this program on a floppy that >I am looking for a driver for aforementioned Macintosh for an Apple Color >Stylewriter 2400. I don't want that printer to be reduced to dust magnet >status! I think the sw2500 driver you can download from apple should work ok. BTW I KNOW I have seen smoothtalker recently, but don't know if I bought it, or just saw it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 19:13:56 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: Electrolytic capacitors and other picture postcards. In-Reply-To: <001301bf71cc$0482c7d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Feb 7, 0 07:32:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 990 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000208/c000d7ce/attachment-0001.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 7 19:20:46 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: Batch OCR'ing from GIF's/TIFF's/bitmaps? In-Reply-To: <20000207234854.27169.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 07, 2000 03:48:54 PM Message-ID: <200002080120.RAA30139@shell1.aracnet.com> ethan wrote: > --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > I've got a question though, how was the stuff gotten into the computer in > > the first place? Not feeling very motivated this morning so I just ported > > the following to VMS BASIC: > > 10-190 BATTLESHIP, Version: 2, January 1974 > > http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0276/index.html > > I just visited this link and was wondering what the crud on the last line > of BT.BAS.1 was. > > Otherwise, good job. I'm sure there's a bunch of us whose early DEC experience > was in the form of BASIC games, whether RSTS or OS/8 or whatever, and it all > brings back the memories. Gack, I think I really need to be getting more sleep. I just read what you wrote, and what I wrote, and I've got a bad feeling you might have misunderstood what I wrote. The above is the pointer to the original DECUS basic source on Tim's site. I finally figured out how to play it, the trick was having CAP's lock on :^) It's actually a pretty cool little program even if it's a little primitive. I've put the updated source and a executable for Alpha OpenVMS V7.2 on my FTP site. ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/vms It should compile fine on the VAX also, as well as maybe some PDP's. Other than the missing spaces/characters I'd mentioned the only problem I ran into is the way the RND statement differed. Well, that and the line numbers. Oh, I'm not sure what the weird *U*$=x characters in the original source at the end are. I thought maybe is was some sort of escape sequence to get out of BASIC. I've got to admit that after playing a game I'm really tempted to make a couple updates. It *really* needs to be able to handle lowercase! Zane From taussig at arpanet.com Mon Feb 7 19:47:02 2000 From: taussig at arpanet.com (Edward Taussig) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: <005901bf71b9$ff270920$b82ad1d8@default> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000207204702.01793ef8@pi.pair.com> Hi. Stabilant 22 was touted highly by Jerry Pournelle in Byte magazine as a contact enhancer, it might help after a good de-gunking. http://www.stabilant.com/ http://www.byte.com/art/9705/sec13/art1.htm "Stabilant 22, the miracle all-purpose contact enhancer. It not only makes for better electrical contacts -- a major use of Stabilant 22 is to get all the electrical noise out of hi-fi systems -- but also lubricates connector insertions. If you don't use Stabilant 22, I bet you wish you did." At 05:23 PM 2/7/00 -0500, you wrote: >Two weeks ago I *had* restored it.... and about every half hour it would >break down with a different problem. I am posting this message in the hope >that if anyone else ever has to restore such a nasty transistor mini then >they can use this as a reference for *everything* that can go wrong with a >minicomputer (excluding the power supply). > >First, the best methods I have found to eliminate the main problems in the >most stubborn transistor minicomputers: > >1) Bad contacts on backplane - Spray it with "Engine Gunk" (seriously, an >automotive engine degreaser/cleaner), then stick a plain extender board with >cloth wrapped around contacts and insert/remove a couple of times. Then use >contact cleaner. > >2) Weak Transistors - Lower the power supply voltage enough that poor >transistors start to fail. > >3) Thermal Transistor Breakdowns - (these are the Fairchild transistors that >*always* fail due to the epoxy inside expanding and breaking contact). I >recommend leaving the minicomputer on for 5 hours and let the poor >transistors completely fail. Nothing worse than an intermittent one. BTW, I >had 18 Flip Chips filled with this problem :-( (thanks for the info >Allison!) > >4) Intermittent Flip Chips - These occur in areas where the mini is running >hot (ie: The MB register) and cause poor solder contacts which *might* be >visible. I recommend pulling these altogether and replacing them. 100s of >ticking timebombs. Get rid of all of them before you go insane. Use a >digital thermometer and check for areas in excess of 115 degrees F (35 C). >In the last 3 transistor minicomputers I have restored over the past 5 >months I have found you will get a lot more intermittents if the mini was >used *a lot* (ie: 12 years) and was stored in an area that varied greatly in >temperature. > >5) Expect your prints not to contain a complete schematic of the mini >computer - I have found many changes to the straight-8, PDP-8/S that were >not listed in FCOs but instead new prints were issued. (1960's) > >COMMON PDP-8/S Problems I have found: > >Since the speed at which data is switched through the PDP-8/S is *much* >faster than the Straight-8 expect problems and replace/resolder the major >registers and *ALL* pulse amplifiers. Most pulse amplifiers are switching at >the maximum speed for such a Flip Chip (R602,603) so the slightest addition >of resistance caused by a poor solder contact will cause endless problems. > > >This PDP-8/S had the following problems (beyond the ones I mentioned before) > >Saul Dinman decided to add a *new* interrupt called "LPC", Low Power >Condition. It will look like a negibus device interrupting the CPU but in >fact is a few gates wired to the power monitor board. Of course, it only >affects *PARTS* :-( of the CPU like... Parity! ,ION, and other nasty *bugs*. >As the original 8/S did not have this installed it was not included in >original prints :-(. I now found a third set with these mods... after >spending a couple of hours pulling my hair out. After polling for interrupts >and a memory parity error it is safe to conclude it is a low poer condition. >Thanks Saul! > > >Of course, everything else *only* failed when the CPU was running a >program.. > > It's OLD instruction set was: >========================================= > >ION when an external device draws *just* enough power when being accessed to >cause an LPC rather than an IO Interrupt :-(. > >Clear Accumulator Sometimes - (external device control) when warm and only >when running a program and oscilloscope is not connected. > >Move AC->MB , 99 out of 100 times asked to. > >Stall CPU Clock 1mS - no longer or it might be seen without scope. > >and my favorite... > >If Zero, Branch Sometimes - BUT branch always in SI mode. > >========================================================================= > >The PDP-8/S has now been running for over 6 hours and every major "bit" >junction has been checked for a poor signal - all Fairchild's removed and >buried. The desktop 8/S is a micro-sauna which means I will probably install >fast boxer fans in place of the two eggbeaters currently installed in the >back. My rackmount 8/s has 4 fans along the sides of the boards + 2 blowers, >one above and one below. > > >I am installing a 20ma->RS232 converter and will get this mini connected to >Telnet with FOCAL loaded as quickly as I can. This mini needs a good month >of continuous running to make sure it is finally... happy. > >PAPER TAPE: If anyone here is using a PC0 with a PC01 controller >(Straight-8, or 8/S) I found internal mods used at DEC to increase the read >speed from 300CPS to 650CPS... error free! 8/S *really* loads FOCAL fast >now! > > >I hope when I get a KA10 it isn't filled with the nasty problems this one >had. > > > >john > > > >PDP-8 and other rare mini computers > >http://www.pdp8.com > > > > From foxnhare at jps.net Mon Feb 7 19:36:40 2000 From: foxnhare at jps.net (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: Commodore PET Anatomy Pictures References: <200002072354.RAA03119@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <389F7323.7EF46907@jps.net> Just Added to my ever-growing Commodore Pages: Anatomy of the PET http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/pet/anatomy.html This is a collection of photos I took a bunch of months back displaying my PETs (and Educator 64) their case designs, keyboards, circuit boards, etc. It gives a good overview of the American Line of the various Commodore PET/CBMs. Such interesting things to see also in the Anatomy are: * A picture of the 'drilled ram area' that commodore had done to keep schools from expanding their PETs bought at a discount. * A pictures of the Early SuperPET board set and a close up of the two-switch version. * A picture of the three earliest designs of the C2N datasette * In the pictures you will see an original PET RAM Expansion, Graphics Expansion and a RAM/ROM Emulator. -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-14.4 bps Commodore 8-bit page at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Feb 7 20:41:23 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: JVC GD-H4220US multi-sync monitor help needed In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "JVC GD-H4220US multi-sync monitor help needed" (Feb 7, 13:59) References: <20000207215917.15114.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10002080241.ZM11387@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 7, 13:59, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Can anyone point me to a chart that has the older 9-pin RGB standard? I can > verify my adapter, then. Also, I'm not sure what kind of sync a CG6 generates. I'd have thought the Amiga adapter would work, if anything would, providing it's for an analogue monitor. Here's the pinout from my Acorn Archimedes, which uses a pretty standard multisync pinout: Type: DE9 Pin Function ---------------- 1 red 2 green 3 blue 4 composite sync 5 optional vertical sync 6 red ground 7 green ground 8 blue ground 9 sync ground and for comparison, CGA (which is TTL, not analogue): Type: DE9 Pin Function ---------------- 1 GND 2 Reserved (no connection) 3 red 4 green 5 blue 6 intensity 7 Reserved (no connection) 8 horizontal sync 9 vertical sync -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Feb 7 21:19:04 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: References: <048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000207221904.2fdf582a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:40 PM 2/7/00 +0000, Tony wrote: >FWIW, I have 2 9133s and a 9154 on my 150-II. Oh, and a couple of 9142 >QIC tape drives. Do you have the software to format the tapes in the 9152s? This reminds me. One of the more interesting items for the HP 150 is the HP 9127 disk drive. It has a 5 1/4" floppy drive and it reads and writes disks in a standard MS-DOS format instead of HP's LIF format. I have a couple of 9127s but I've never tried to use them. Does anyone know if the 9127s can be used on any of the other HP systems? I haven't found much information about them in the HP catalogs. Joe From elvey at hal.com Mon Feb 7 21:26:08 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000207204702.01793ef8@pi.pair.com> Message-ID: <200002080326.TAA25423@civic.hal.com> Edward Taussig wrote: > Hi. Stabilant 22 was touted highly by Jerry Pournelle in Byte magazine > as a contact enhancer, it might help after a good de-gunking. > http://www.stabilant.com/ > > http://www.byte.com/art/9705/sec13/art1.htm > "Stabilant 22, the miracle all-purpose contact enhancer. It not only makes > for better electrical contacts -- a major use of Stabilant 22 is to get all > the electrical noise out of hi-fi systems -- but also lubricates connector > insertions. If you don't use Stabilant 22, I bet you wish you did." > Hi Why use someone's resold product when you can just buy some silicone grease like DC4 and it works fine. DC4 will last longer because it contain a binder. As for degreasing, I would suspect that something like brake clean would be better on electronics. Gunk engine cleaner has corrosives and is hygroscopic. I don't think I want that in my machine. It would surely cause long term problems. IMHO Dwight From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 22:07:48 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: JVC GD-H4220US multi-sync monitor help needed Message-ID: <20000208040748.1722.qmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Feb 7, 13:59, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Can anyone point me to a chart that has the older 9-pin RGB standard? > > I'd have thought the Amiga adapter would work, if anything would, providing > it's for an analogue monitor. It is. I've used it on an ancient IBM "Professional Graphics Adapter" monitor - same case as the original IBM Mono monitor from the 5-slot PC days, but 31.5Khz, analog, and color. I would have thought it would work, too, but something's odd about it. Perhaps it's sync polarity. > Here's the pinout from my Acorn Archimedes, > which uses a pretty standard multisync pinout: Thanks. I'll check my adapter. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Feb 7 21:46:22 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: Telephone and PBX manuals In-Reply-To: <002101bf728e$e72753e0$1a80b7d1@kstumpf> Message-ID: One of my friends just bought 2 pallets of manuals, mostly Northern Telecom and AT&T stuff like for the Meridian and SL-1 switches. If you are looking for anything "like" that, down to just the 3 to 4 inch 3 ring binders, email me ASAP. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 22:23:32 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: JVC GD-H4220US multi-sync monitor help needed Message-ID: <20000208042332.3979.qmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Feb 7, 13:59, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Can anyone point me to a chart that has the older 9-pin RGB standard? > Here's the pinout from my Acorn Archimedes, > which uses a pretty standard multisync pinout: > > Type: DE9 > > Pin Function > ---------------- > 1 red > 2 green > 3 blue > 4 composite sync > 5 optional vertical sync > 6 red ground > 7 green ground > 8 blue ground > 9 sync ground This is _very_ close to what I eventually found at pinouts.com... NEC 9-pin Multisync: http://www.pin-outs.com/datasheet_58.htm IBM 15-pin VGA: http://www.pin-outs.com/datasheet_15c.html The difference is that on the NEC 9-pin, 4 and 5 are H. Sync and V. Sync. >From this information, my adapters are a) identical and b) correct. They do connect pin 4 on the 9-pin side to pin 13 and pin 5 to pin 14, as one might expect. The analog wires and associated grounds are as expected. I guess I'm down to either inverted sync or a defective monitor. Thanks for the nudge in the right direction. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From dylanb at sympatico.ca Mon Feb 7 21:20:04 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <000d01bf71e3$6464b660$1822d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, February 07, 2000 10:29 PM Subject: Re[2]: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. >Edward Taussig wrote: >> Hi. Stabilant 22 was touted highly by Jerry Pournelle in Byte magazine >> as a contact enhancer, it might help after a good de-gunking. >> http://www.stabilant.com/ >> >> http://www.byte.com/art/9705/sec13/art1.htm >> "Stabilant 22, the miracle all-purpose contact enhancer. It not only makes >> for better electrical contacts -- a major use of Stabilant 22 is to get all >> the electrical noise out of hi-fi systems -- but also lubricates connector >> insertions. If you don't use Stabilant 22, I bet you wish you did." >> > >Hi > Why use someone's resold product when you can just >buy some silicone grease like DC4 and it works fine. >DC4 will last longer because it contain a binder. >As for degreasing, I would suspect that something like >brake clean would be better on electronics. Gunk engine >cleaner has corrosives and is hygroscopic. I don't think >I want that in my machine. It would surely cause >long term problems. I have been using engine gunk in minis for many years and have never had any come back. I am dealing with dirt/crud so thick that you couldn't get it off with just scrubbing. After the engine gunk I vacuum out the backplane, then use contact cleaner. I have never had a problem or a bad contact after that. This should only be used in minis where regulart contact cleaner fails. I have rarely had to use it because most minis come out of labs and are very clean. This mini has been sitting in a warehouse, unprotected for at least 25 years. The dirt was so thick on the negibus cables that I had to soak them in a tub for 4 hours and scrap the dirt off in layers. Looks like a millions $$ now but was disgusting to even handle before. Amazing how much dust and garbage something can accumulate over 20+ years. (it's been running 10 hours now without problems :-) ) john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com >IMHO >Dwight > > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Feb 7 22:29:11 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: Electrolytic capacitors and other picture postcards. Message-ID: <200002080429.XAA20611@world.std.com> References: <20000207215917.15114.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >I picked up half a dozen or so terminal keyboards today, mostly Digital >LK401-AA (I think), a couple are Telex with a big round 5 pin that looks >PC. I also have a couple spare RJ11 things from keyboards that didn't look >so nice. Up to half the batch I will offer to members of this list for $6 >each and shipping, the rest go to eBay since they sell for $20 each (listed >as Dec VAX keyboards). Filling in a little more detail; LK411 just one, but it looks new with the cable still in a bag. LK401-AA about half a dozen, with one currently listed on eBay. LK201 two of these slightly larger keyboards. One keyboard that "looks" like the 401, but no markings at all. Four of the RJ11 on both ends cables. Three of the following Telex keyboards with fat coiled cables. Only one of them had printing I could read on the bottom label, but all three "looked" the same. label reads as follows; Telex Computer Products 205233-002 Rev 01 952563-101 F.C. 602 122ST13-10E A0008 8538 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 8 08:23:51 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: monitor spec in general was Re: JVC GD-H4220US multi-sync monitor help needed In-Reply-To: <10002080241.ZM11387@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <20000207215917.15114.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000208092351.3057f9a4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Speaking of monitors. On one of my scrounging trips I found a Quantum Data 801-C Color Character Generator. This is a fancy video generator that can generate monochome or color video for composite or RGB type monitors. EVERYTHING about the output is programable; the horizontal and verticle sweep rates, field times, dot times, the number of characters per line, the number of dots per character both horizontally and vertically, along with signal polarity and levels, etc, etc, etc. I finally found a manual for it but what I'd like to find is a source that gives the DETAILED specifications for various types of monitors. Does anyone have a source for anything like that? Joe From Historical at aol.com Tue Feb 8 08:33:25 2000 From: Historical at aol.com (Historical@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: How to switch to digest mode . . . Message-ID: Hello everyone, sorry to ask through the list, but could someone please direct me in this? I used to be in digest mode. Thanks very much. Best, David Greelish Classic Computing Press www.classiccomputing.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 8 11:07:13 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: FS: Exteranl Apple Super drive In-Reply-To: <10002080241.ZM11387@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <20000207215917.15114.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000208120713.3d6ff83e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I picked this up at a KSC auction but I don't need it. Apple SuperDrive in external case, family number G7287. I don't have anything to test it on but it looks like new and even still has the tag on the I/O cable. The first $15 plus shipping from 32765 zip code gets it. Joe From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Feb 8 11:11:00 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software Message-ID: <001001bf7258$0bbeb7c0$52e993c3@proteus> Sometime last month there was a discussion here about members' preferred PCB layout software - most of which I appear to have missed thanks to my ISP having problems.... Anyway, what came of that discussion and what were the recommendations for a good free package? Personally I've been using the DOS based "Easy PCB" for about 10 years now (does that make this on topic? ) but would "prefer" to switch to a Win95 based package since I don't have a Linux box up and running yet. I've got "Eagle CAD v3.55r3" which is great, but the limitation on board size makes it impossible for me to use it for the project I'm playing with at the moment. :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From marvin at rain.org Mon Feb 7 12:11:00 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software References: <001001bf7258$0bbeb7c0$52e993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <389F0AB4.B0FBC96F@rain.org> For small boards, I have a program called CAMDOS that seems to work quite well. It does not have autorouting capability, but then again for small boards ... :). I don't recall the exact limitations but IIRC, standard bus boards were no problem. Peter Pachla wrote: > > Sometime last month there was a discussion here about members' preferred PCB > layout software - most of which I appear to have missed thanks to my ISP > having problems.... > > Anyway, what came of that discussion and what were the recommendations for a > good free package? > > Personally I've been using the DOS based "Easy PCB" for about 10 years now > (does that make this on topic? ) but would "prefer" to switch to a > Win95 based package since I don't have a Linux box up and running yet. I've > got "Eagle CAD v3.55r3" which is great, but the limitation on board size > makes it impossible for me to use it for the project I'm playing with at the > moment. :-( > > TTFN - Pete. > > -- > Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. > Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > > peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk > -- From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Feb 8 12:17:36 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: [CC] Wanted: Macintosh speech program called "Smooth Talker" In-Reply-To: <200002072354.RAA03119@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: David Vohs wrote: >I am looking for a driver for aforementioned Macintosh for an Apple Color >Stylewriter 2400. I don't want that printer to be reduced to dust magnet >status! http://asu.info.apple.com/swupdates.nsf/artnum/n10265 Don't know what system software it requires, but considering it's dated 1/97 it should be OK with 7.0.1 or 7.1, both of which run fine on my Mac Plus. - Mark From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 8 13:06:46 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: JVC GD-H4220US multi-sync monitor help needed In-Reply-To: <10002080241.ZM11387@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Feb 8, 0 02:41:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 717 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000208/7fe6b8b2/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 8 13:13:58 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000207221904.2fdf582a@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 7, 0 10:19:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1702 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000208/8cc1f85d/attachment-0001.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Tue Feb 8 13:23:26 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software Message-ID: <000601bf7269$f98c0960$0400c0a8@winbook> IIRC there's a free/demo package from IVEX that might do, though I don't know whether it's time limited or not. I am unfamiliar with it because I felt that it was missing about 99.99% of the library component symbols and models I expected to see. It's not missing too much from their viewpoint, but The first five or six components I tried to use in their demo software were absent, so I ditched it. I'm not even sure that IVEX isn't the vendor of the Windraft, etc packages which I seem to recall it is, but they seem to reflect the same problems. There's a PD add-on for AutoCad, which isn't free, that is claimed to work well, though I haven't tried it. What I use for the bread-and-butter stuff myself is the classic DOS-based OrCAD v3.22 which works, I find, much better than the more recent GUI-based versions. OrCAD has recently come out with a schematic capture package for which there is supposed to be a route editor as well, accessible over the web only. That might meet your short-term needs. If you like the EAGLE stuff well enough, it's not terribly expensive, and certainly costs in the range from 1..10% of what the OrCAD which does from 1..10% of Eagle will do, costs. If you plan to integratge shcematic capture and PCB routing with other packages, you should look at VIEWLOGIC despite its higher cost, because it's the package now most-used to support entry on the low-cost CPLD/FPGA verndors' software. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Peter Pachla To: Classic Computer Date: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 10:45 AM Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software >Sometime last month there was a discussion here about members' preferred PCB >layout software - most of which I appear to have missed thanks to my ISP >having problems.... > >Anyway, what came of that discussion and what were the recommendations for a >good free package? > > >Personally I've been using the DOS based "Easy PCB" for about 10 years now >(does that make this on topic? ) but would "prefer" to switch to a >Win95 based package since I don't have a Linux box up and running yet. I've >got "Eagle CAD v3.55r3" which is great, but the limitation on board size >makes it impossible for me to use it for the project I'm playing with at the >moment. :-( > > > TTFN - Pete. > >-- >Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. >Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > >peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk >-- > > > From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Feb 8 14:09:44 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: Electrolytic capacitors and other picture postcards. References: <001301bf71cc$0482c7d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <38A07808.A57C9BB4@wxs.nl> There is one type of ecap that is rather sensitive to negative spikes and overvoltage. These are called tantalium capacitors. Tantalium cap have that very distinct drop-shape ! Best way to protect them is to solder an 1n4001 antiparalel between then ground and the positive powerline such that it will short out any negative spikes on the board. Install likewise on all other power feeds. Overvoltage protection needs a specialised cirquit with a crowbar to blow the fuse in case of an overvoltage condition. ----+------- Positive plane | _ ^ diode (note orientation) | ----+------- ground plane | _ ^ another diode | ----+------- negative plane Sipke de Wal Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Well, my OSI C3D is currently non-functional. Here's > what happened: > > I've been testing and repairing a number of OSI 48-pin > bus cards using the C3. This has required a large number > of power cycles. Also, several cards caused the PS fuse > (2A, 250 volt, glass cartridge) to blow. In each case, this > problem was corrected by replacing the electrolytic caps on > the offending board. OSI used 47 microfarad, 16 volt ecaps > (ecaps... is this a good abbreviation? I'm getting tired of > typing "electrolytic") pretty much exclusively. I could not > find a source for these, so I used 47mf, 36 volt ecaps as > replacements. This seemed to work OK. I finished working > on the other cards and tried to bring up the machine with > just the original cards. The fuse blew. Grrr... I pulled > all of the cards, replaced the fuse and tried them one at a > time. Sure enough, the CPU card (the model 510, triple CPU > card with 6800, 6502 and 8080) was the culprit. I replaced > its two ecaps as per above. It came up, rebooted once OK, > started to get flakey and now won't come up at all. Is my > understanding of ecaps correct? That is, as long as the > capacitance is correct, the voltage is greater or equal to > the required load and it is installed "right way around" > it should be OK? There is so much logic on this board, a > lot of it 8Txx, I hope I haven't blown a chip. It would > take me a month to find it and who knows if I could get a > replacement. > > Thanks, > Bill Sudbrink From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Feb 8 14:21:58 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. References: <3.0.3.32.20000207204702.01793ef8@pi.pair.com> Message-ID: <38A07AE6.5BF46765@wxs.nl> Contact Spray is HELL Never ever use contact-spray! or the like in low voltage connectors/equipment Often the fat that is left after the carrier-solvent has vaporised will function as a very good insulator, The grease will contract all kind of vermin that will eek out a living in your equipment and over time the problem will return ever more hefty. You'll get addicted to the stuff Even in HI-FI-equipment this is a last resort solution, and i would prefer kerosine to remove the crackle from a potentiometer Also: Some types of spray will contain solvents that can effectively dissolve plastics! A very good way to clean dirty contacts is your everyday pencil-eraser and iso-propyl alcohol. Sipke de Wal Edward Taussig wrote: > > Hi. Stabilant 22 was touted highly by Jerry Pournelle in Byte magazine > as a contact enhancer, it might help after a good de-gunking. > http://www.stabilant.com/ > > http://www.byte.com/art/9705/sec13/art1.htm > "Stabilant 22, the miracle all-purpose contact enhancer. It not only makes > for better electrical contacts -- a major use of Stabilant 22 is to get all > the electrical noise out of hi-fi systems -- but also lubricates connector > insertions. If you don't use Stabilant 22, I bet you wish you did." > > At 05:23 PM 2/7/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Two weeks ago I *had* restored it.... and about every half hour it would > >break down with a different problem. I am posting this message in the hope > >that if anyone else ever has to restore such a nasty transistor mini then > >they can use this as a reference for *everything* that can go wrong with a > >minicomputer (excluding the power supply). > > > >First, the best methods I have found to eliminate the main problems in the > >most stubborn transistor minicomputers: > > > >1) Bad contacts on backplane - Spray it with "Engine Gunk" (seriously, an > >automotive engine degreaser/cleaner), then stick a plain extender board with > >cloth wrapped around contacts and insert/remove a couple of times. Then use > >contact cleaner. > > > >2) Weak Transistors - Lower the power supply voltage enough that poor > >transistors start to fail. > > > >3) Thermal Transistor Breakdowns - (these are the Fairchild transistors that > >*always* fail due to the epoxy inside expanding and breaking contact). I > >recommend leaving the minicomputer on for 5 hours and let the poor > >transistors completely fail. Nothing worse than an intermittent one. BTW, I > >had 18 Flip Chips filled with this problem :-( (thanks for the info > >Allison!) > > > >4) Intermittent Flip Chips - These occur in areas where the mini is running > >hot (ie: The MB register) and cause poor solder contacts which *might* be > >visible. I recommend pulling these altogether and replacing them. 100s of > >ticking timebombs. Get rid of all of them before you go insane. Use a > >digital thermometer and check for areas in excess of 115 degrees F (35 C). > >In the last 3 transistor minicomputers I have restored over the past 5 > >months I have found you will get a lot more intermittents if the mini was > >used *a lot* (ie: 12 years) and was stored in an area that varied greatly in > >temperature. > > > >5) Expect your prints not to contain a complete schematic of the mini > >computer - I have found many changes to the straight-8, PDP-8/S that were > >not listed in FCOs but instead new prints were issued. (1960's) > > > >COMMON PDP-8/S Problems I have found: > > > >Since the speed at which data is switched through the PDP-8/S is *much* > >faster than the Straight-8 expect problems and replace/resolder the major > >registers and *ALL* pulse amplifiers. Most pulse amplifiers are switching at > >the maximum speed for such a Flip Chip (R602,603) so the slightest addition > >of resistance caused by a poor solder contact will cause endless problems. > > > > > >This PDP-8/S had the following problems (beyond the ones I mentioned before) > > > >Saul Dinman decided to add a *new* interrupt called "LPC", Low Power > >Condition. It will look like a negibus device interrupting the CPU but in > >fact is a few gates wired to the power monitor board. Of course, it only > >affects *PARTS* :-( of the CPU like... Parity! ,ION, and other nasty *bugs*. > >As the original 8/S did not have this installed it was not included in > >original prints :-(. I now found a third set with these mods... after > >spending a couple of hours pulling my hair out. After polling for interrupts > >and a memory parity error it is safe to conclude it is a low poer condition. > >Thanks Saul! > > > > > >Of course, everything else *only* failed when the CPU was running a > >program.. > > > > It's OLD instruction set was: > >========================================= > > > >ION when an external device draws *just* enough power when being accessed to > >cause an LPC rather than an IO Interrupt :-(. > > > >Clear Accumulator Sometimes - (external device control) when warm and only > >when running a program and oscilloscope is not connected. > > > >Move AC->MB , 99 out of 100 times asked to. > > > >Stall CPU Clock 1mS - no longer or it might be seen without scope. > > > >and my favorite... > > > >If Zero, Branch Sometimes - BUT branch always in SI mode. > > > >========================================================================= > > > >The PDP-8/S has now been running for over 6 hours and every major "bit" > >junction has been checked for a poor signal - all Fairchild's removed and > >buried. The desktop 8/S is a micro-sauna which means I will probably install > >fast boxer fans in place of the two eggbeaters currently installed in the > >back. My rackmount 8/s has 4 fans along the sides of the boards + 2 blowers, > >one above and one below. > > > > > >I am installing a 20ma->RS232 converter and will get this mini connected to > >Telnet with FOCAL loaded as quickly as I can. This mini needs a good month > >of continuous running to make sure it is finally... happy. > > > >PAPER TAPE: If anyone here is using a PC0 with a PC01 controller > >(Straight-8, or 8/S) I found internal mods used at DEC to increase the read > >speed from 300CPS to 650CPS... error free! 8/S *really* loads FOCAL fast > >now! > > > > > >I hope when I get a KA10 it isn't filled with the nasty problems this one > >had. > > > > > > > >john > > > > > > > >PDP-8 and other rare mini computers > > > >http://www.pdp8.com > > > > > > > > From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Tue Feb 8 14:49:42 2000 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: free machines in Woodbridge VA Message-ID: <200002082049.PAA23086@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> Hey all, Once upon a time, I wrote asking for volunteers to rescue some machines in Woodbridge VA. There was a PDP-11/34 that got rescued, but there is still a big pile up there that is headed for the scrap heap unless somebody picks it up. Of course, the remainder is mostly PC crap^H^H^H^Hstuff, but some of it is old enough to be of possible interest. Let me know if you're interested. (The guy dumping this stuff really would like it to find good homes, but he still doesn't want to be overrun by dozens of requests, so I'm still trying to coordinate things.) Without further ado, here's the list brought back by our recon guy, Al Corda . Some of it may be gone by now, but most is probably still there: ] As of today (1/10/00) items of interest I have identified ] include the following: ] ] 3 or 4 Gen-u-ine DEC VT100s (some with keyboards! :-) ] ] A number of IBM XTs (Yeh, I know, but I included them for ] completeness :-) ] A number of IBM ATs (Just plain ATs, no AT370s or AT3270s (so far)) ] ] 2 Compaq Plus Luggables ] ] A bunch of LaserWriter II printers in various states of repair ] A bunch of Spinwriter printers of various makes. ] ] 2 Photocopiers (1 Canon Npf-270, one Xerox (not certain of model)) ] ] A bunch of PC monitors, mostly monochrome or CGA (no VGA as far as I ] could tell) ] ] A couple of cases of various PC software from the early 90's ] (stuff like RBASE, etc.) ] ] 3 or 4 large _HEAVY_ units that on brief inspection strike me as ] UPS (or line conditioner) units. No manufacturers markings were ] obvious (but I wasn't going to try to turn one over. My back is ] worth more to me than any UPS.) ] ] Piles of office telephones, Old modems, Various unidentifiable ] electronic assemblies of dubious origin, Boxes and boxes of cables, ] wire, etc. Cheers, Bill. PS. I've been _way_ behind on answering e-mail lately, so remind me in your reply that this is time-sensitive, and that machines will get crushed if I nap. :-/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 8 13:25:06 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: Electrolytic capacitors and other picture postcards. In-Reply-To: <200002080429.XAA20611@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Feb 7, 0 11:29:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1707 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000208/ee54a0b9/attachment-0001.ksh From dogas at leading.net Tue Feb 8 14:54:10 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <01bf7276$a9c60ea0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> >From: John B > > That was great. I dont even have an 8 of any kind but I enjoyed reading the pointers and learned alot with that one. Thanks. It's one of the reasons I like this list (and I hope one day to have to dig that note up from an archive to help a machine that's near... ;) Keep it up! Cheers - Mike: dogas@leading.net From elvey at hal.com Tue Feb 8 15:49:33 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: <38A07AE6.5BF46765@wxs.nl> Message-ID: <200002082149.NAA12942@civic.hal.com> Sipke de Wal wrote: > Contact Spray is HELL > > Never ever use contact-spray! or the like in low voltage > connectors/equipment Often the fat that is left after the > carrier-solvent has vaporised will function as a very good insulator, > The grease will contract all kind of vermin that will eek out a living > in your equipment and over time the problem will return ever more hefty. > You'll get addicted to the stuff Why does every one think I'm talking about petroleum grease. Many high power connectors are protected with silicone grease and still functioning with out a hitch after 25 years. Their contact resistance still measures less then the original dry contact resistance. I put silicone grease on the contacts of the USART socket, in my Poly88, back in 1979, to fix a flaky contact. I have had no reason since then to add more. I used the Poly88 just last week. If I'm addicted, it is just for new applications. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 8 15:55:47 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: <38A07AE6.5BF46765@wxs.nl> from "Sipke de Wal" at Feb 8, 0 09:21:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 567 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000208/ccf5a6ed/attachment-0001.ksh From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Tue Feb 8 17:25:04 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: [CC] Clarifying my "Wanted" posting. Message-ID: <20000208232504.14870.qmail@hotmail.com> First off, here is my original posting: >I am looking for a copy of the old Macintosh speech synthesizer program >called "Smooth Talker" from First Byte. I had this program >on a floppy >that my electronics teacher gave to me last year, but >the floppy has since >worn out & I have been searching *everywhere* >for a copy, but to no avail. >If you have a copy, *do not* send me a >disk image, as my Mac (original Mac >upgraded to Mac Plus specs.) >does not recognize them at all. I must ask, >however, that it come on >an 800K floppy, 400K is not enough space! > >I am looking for a driver for aforementioned Macintosh for an Apple Color >Stylewriter 2400. I don't want that printer to be reduced to >dust magnet >status! Clarification: I am looking for the aforementioned drivers/programs *on a disk*, *NOT* as a disk image! Disk images are totally useless to me, & my Mac does not like them *at all*. I tried to make a disk image once, but it didn't work. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, Double FDD, GeoRam 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue Feb 8 16:44:35 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <003b01bf7286$13139da0$bf20d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Mike To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 4:43 PM Subject: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. >>From: John B >> >> > >That was great. I dont even have an 8 of any kind but I enjoyed reading the >pointers and learned alot with that one. Thanks. It's one of the reasons I >like this list (and I hope one day to have to dig that note up from an >archive to help a machine that's near... ;) Keep it up! > You're welcome, and I really hope you find one. Out of the dozens of different mini computers I have restored for collectors, I have never found one as fun to restore as the PDP-8/S. What else can you run hundreds of different programs and languages on only 1001 transistors and 73 light bulbs? (and pretty quick too ;-) ).... Oh, and using "general purpose" Flip Chips?There are only 3 custom boards inside the 8/S: the front panel switches, the front panel lights, and the power monitor flip chip (W506). Even the core memory used general purpose slicers/diff. amps found in DF32 DISC and Magtape units! (okay, So Saul was desperate to use easily accessible Flip Chips... ). Well, back to the grind... I have to restore some PDP-11/20 minis now :-( Hope you find I *really* cool mini! john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com >Cheers >- Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue Feb 8 16:56:45 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <004c01bf7287$c5e788a0$bf20d1d8@default> >Why does every one think I'm talking about petroleum >grease. Many high power connectors are protected with >silicone grease and still functioning with out a >hitch after 25 years. Their contact resistance still >measures less then the original dry contact resistance. >I put silicone grease on the contacts of the USART >socket, in my Poly88, back in 1979, to fix a flaky contact. >I have had no reason since then to add more. I used >the Poly88 just last week. If I'm addicted, it is just >for new applications. >Dwight I'll have to try that. I guess, everyone has their own way of fixing bad solder contacts. I've used the method I described over the past 16 years on dozens of old mini computers... never had one come back because of problems caused from the chemicals I use... john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 8 18:23:55 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:36 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <200002090023.TAA25566@world.std.com> Hi, If you have a Classic HP 3000 (any two-digit model #), and if you received the "Y2K Safe" release of MPE recently, and if you haven't installed it yet, I have some notes that you should find interesting. (If you didn't get your Y2K Safe MPE V (which was free!), email Allan Hertling at allan_hertling@hp.com) 0. 3P Patches? -------------- If your goal is to get Release 40 installed, you don't need to bother with the 3P patches you may have received. I simply installed 3P, and then did the Turbo Update to Release 40, and then installed the Release 40 patches. 1. TUINSTAL Y2K bug ------------------- The Turbo Update mechanism has a Y2K bug in it. TUINSTAL builds the file TUSYSDMP, which builds a new SL and tries to create a SYSDUMP tape with a partial backup. If run today (8 Feb 2000), the partial backup would be specified incorrectly as 2/8/0 ... and STORE (which is used by SYSDUMP) doesn't accept a single digit year. Workarounds: 1) change system date to 1999-12-31 before running TUINSTAL (note: you may have to purge TUSYSDMP if it's already been built) or 2) edit TUSLINFO prior to running TUINSTAL and change the line towards the end with "$$/$$/$$" to "02/04/00" (or some such) ...note: I haven't tested to see if TUNINSTALL will complain if it can't find the $$/$$/$$ line. 2. Release 40 Patches --------------------- There are 7 patches on the Release 40 patch tape. Accompanying the tape is a list of the patches ... these are also the names of the files to stream to install each patch! Notes: 1) Be sure to restore the patches into PATCH.TELESUP! (They're on the tape as @.PATCH40.TELESUP) 2) Don't rely on setting LIMIT to 1! Each job has a ";HIPRI", and each builds a new file called "PATCH1JJ" (or some such), and streams it with HIPRI! I.e., it you attempt to minimize your time at the console by streaming all the jobs at once, you'll regret it! (Been there, done that :) 3) INFDVA7B and TRVDVA8B both replace RAPID000.PUB.SYS ... the latter with a bigger file than the former. My *guess* is that TRVDVA8B should be installed second. 4) BBRDVA1B, RPRDVB0A, and SIMANY5B each build a new SYSDUMP tape and require a coldload. I streamed the other 5 jobs first (one at a time), then did: stream BBRDVA1B COLDLOAD from the tape stream RPRDVB0A COLDLOAD from the tape stream SIMANY5B COLDLOAD from the tape did a manual SYSDUMP with date 0 and "@.@.@" If you're ambitious, you could combine the three patches into one job (with one sysdump/coldload) 3. Disk Space ------------- I didn't want to risk my existing disks/system, so I bought a used Coyote (HP 6000 670H ... 670 MB?), and setup a single disk system. After installing just the 3P FOS tape, FREE5 reported 2,348,785 available sectors (573 MB) ... before installing the SUBSYS tape! After going to Release 40, installing the subsystems, and installing the Release 40 patches, I have about 1,600,000 sectors free (383 MB). Stan Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 8 19:05:24 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <200002090105.UAA23517@world.std.com> >I'll have to try that. I guess, everyone has their own way of fixing bad >solder contacts. I've used the method I described over the past 16 years on I DID NOT MEAN BAD SOLDER CONTACTS... I meant poor contacts between a backplane and a board. I'm still having "bad solder joint" flashbacks after restoring my second PDP-8/S.... I hope they go away in a few days ;-) john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com > >john > >PDP-8 and other rare mini computers > >http://www.pdp8.com > >> >> > > From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Tue Feb 8 20:13:12 2000 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: site for old Mac/Lisa SW Message-ID: <27341256@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 347 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000208/f00b2dd2/attachment-0001.bin From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 8 20:39:27 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software In-Reply-To: <001001bf7258$0bbeb7c0$52e993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000208183927.0094d4f0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 17:11 08-02-2000 -0000, you wrote: >Anyway, what came of that discussion and what were the recommendations for a >good free package? Unfortunately (for my needs at least) most of the "free" packages have too many limitations to be useful. I had an old DOS version of OrCAD/SDT once, and it did serve me well for some years. Thanks to having it, I was able to do a "competitive upgrade" to Micro Code Engineering's CircuitMaker Pro and TraxMaker Pro (about USD $700 or so for the pair). So far, it has proven to be a good investment. The digital simulation functions saw me through some tough problems in one of my classes, and produced output that had both my instructors raising their eyebrows. I'll be happy to answer any questions if you want to know more. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 8 20:41:51 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Electrolytic capacitors and other picture postcards. In-Reply-To: <38A07808.A57C9BB4@wxs.nl> References: <001301bf71cc$0482c7d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000208184151.00941150@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 21:09 08-02-2000 +0100, you wrote: >There is one type of ecap that is rather sensitive to >negative spikes and overvoltage. These are called tantalium >capacitors. That would be 'Tantalum.' No extra 'i.' ;-) You are correct, though. Tantalums are quite sensitive to overvoltage conditions, as well as reverse polarity. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Feb 8 20:51:55 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: New list - "PDP-archives" Message-ID: <000208215155.25600e02@trailing-edge.com> Hi Folks, You might remember me, I'm the guy who maintains the PDP-11 software archives at http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ and the PDP-10 software archives at http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ In order to maximize the utility of these archives to users, as well as to encourage discussion of the archives (as in, "Hey, I just found a really neat Battleship game for my PDP-10"), I've formed a new mailing list: "PDP-archives". It will be for the discussion not only of the above archives, but also for discussion of other archives and general topics about how to best archive and distribute old PDP-8, PDP-10, and PDP-11 software. (Other PDP-nn software is welcome too, of course!) To subscribe, send an E-mail request consisting of the line subscribe PDP-archives to PDP-archives-request@mudd.trailing-edge.com Alternatively, visit http://mudd.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/PDP-archives and sign up using the web interface. See you on the list! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Feb 9 00:36:59 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software Message-ID: <001501bf72c8$11b714e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Please see comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 8:02 PM Subject: Re: Schematic capture/PCB design software >At 17:11 08-02-2000 -0000, you wrote: > > > >>Anyway, what came of that discussion and what were the recommendations for a >>good free package? > > > > Unfortunately (for my needs at least) most of the "free" packages have too >many limitations to be useful. I had an old DOS version of OrCAD/SDT once, >and it did serve me well for some years. Thanks to having it, I was able to >do a "competitive upgrade" to Micro Code Engineering's CircuitMaker Pro and >TraxMaker Pro (about USD $700 or so for the pair). > > So far, it has proven to be a good investment. The digital simulation >functions saw me through some tough problems in one of my classes, and >produced output that had both my instructors raising their eyebrows. > > I'll be happy to answer any questions if you want to know more. > I've got a sample package of CIrcuitMaker and TraxMaker and found it wanting, particularly in simulation models and device symbols. When I got OrCAD in the mid-'80's they covered over 90% of the TTL and CMOS devices available. By comparison, I'd say I found these two to be lacking about 90%. It's really not a problem with their libraries, but with how they're managed. They build a symbol for 7400, say, but there's no guarantee there's a corresponding symbol for the 74HC00 or 74S37, which would use the same package and symbol. They had nearly no AC or ACT parts represented, nor did they have BCT or F library components. Since you're paying for a simulator, there ought to be correct models for 7400, 74L00, 74H00, 74C00, 74S00, 74LS00, 74AC00, 74ACT00, 74AHCT00, 74ACT00, 74AHCTLS00, and so on. There ought also to be plenty of models for CMOS parts starting with 40xx, 44xx, 45xx, and a goodly number of 7300 and 7600 series parts. OrCAD had all that back in the mid-80's. They no longer offer that much coverage, owning to the increased knowledge of the user community, which would merely point out all their errors. Have you found otherwise? > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Feb 9 01:21:52 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software In-Reply-To: <001501bf72c8$11b714e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000208232152.0094fe00@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 23:36 08-02-2000 -0700, you wrote: >I've got a sample package of CIrcuitMaker and TraxMaker and found it >wanting, particularly in simulation models and device symbols. It would be. I don't believe Micro Code includes full libraries with the sample versions. >would use the same package and symbol. They had nearly no AC or ACT parts >represented, nor did they have BCT or F library components. Since you're >paying for a simulator, there ought to be correct models for 7400, 74L00, >74H00, 74C00, 74S00, 74LS00, 74AC00, 74ACT00, 74AHCT00, 74ACT00, 74AHCTLS00, A basic simulator at the digital level only looks at on/off states. That's really all it has to do. Since all the parts you've listed above perform EXACTLY the same function, and have the same symbol, I don't see why the library has to include every possible variation on one part. FWIW, the current version of CircuitMaker Pro includes the following for 2-input NAND gates: 4011, 4093, 74F00, 74F132, 74F37, 74LS00, 74LS132, and 74LS37. While I agree that CM does need some help with their library, notably in the more exotic components such as tunnel diodes, I have found it adequate for my needs. The version of OrCAD you refer to only does schematic capture, if I recall correctly, and has no simulation capabilities. >and so on. There ought also to be plenty of models for CMOS parts starting >with 40xx, 44xx, 45xx, and a goodly number of 7300 and 7600 series parts. >OrCAD had all that back in the mid-80's. They no longer offer that much >coverage, owning to the increased knowledge of the user community, which >would merely point out all their errors. I'm not sure I understand that last statement. If the omission of components is itself an error, why would the "user community" not point it out and ask for better coverage? Also, have you considered that there may be another reason? Specifically, that the advancing state of technology where ICs are concerned has made such wide varieties of parts unnecessary to accomplish a given task? To be perfectly honest, I've never heard of the 7300 or 7600 series parts. I do know of TI's 75xxx series, which were line drivers/receivers, but I'm curious about the ones you mention. Anyway, I feel that what CM lacks in library coverage is made up for in other features. Also, there is nothing keeping you from adding to the library. One can create their own SPICE models, though this is not generally a trivial task, and I know there's at least one software package available that lets you input specs from a databook and have it output a SPICE model. >Have you found otherwise? As I've said: I've found that it serves my needs. I feel that it was a good investment for the price I paid. Do I feel that most EDA software is overpriced? Yes. Would I recommend CM and TM for any application? No. There are better packages, but most are well beyond the hobbyist price range. Is there a need for an EDA package with better 'legacy' parts support? I think so. I will continue to bug Micro Code about improving CM and TM along those lines. In fact, we're probably due for an update this year. The bottom line is that a question was asked of the list members, and I gave my opinion in response. The 'Free' packages simply do not suit my needs. If they suit the needs of others, great! I was merely offering one option out of many. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Feb 9 03:44:48 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: References: <38A07AE6.5BF46765@wxs.nl> from "Sipke de Wal" at Feb 8, 0 09:21:58 pm Message-ID: >Oh, and the less said about WD40 the better... I have something worse. Although none on this list might suspect it, from time to time I buy weird cheap items. Case in point, Soybean oil lubricant. Reading the can made it sound like using the product would heal the ozone layer, and it was 79 cents, so I bought a can. As oil it seems ok, but STINK, it reeks for weeks. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Feb 9 03:24:27 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: How far can you reach in a dumpster? In-Reply-To: <001001bf7258$0bbeb7c0$52e993c3@proteus> Message-ID: I like it when things happen nice. During a scrounge earlier this week I put together a decidedly lame looking box of bits to buy. Today one of my friends gave me a Panasonic Business Mate 150 portable. Digging through my lame box of bits tonight what do I find? The AC power adapter. Yes sometimes its sweet. ;) Answering my teaser subject, until I reach the "organic" layer, but I don't follow the rule you have to keep one foot on the floor. From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Wed Feb 9 05:53:23 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: How far can you reach in a dumpster? Message-ID: <001201bf72f4$44f8b580$db3fc018@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, 9 February 2000 22:23 Subject: How far can you reach in a dumpster? My answer: Until it's too high to climb out again ! Ever since I found a PDP/8L in one a few weeks ago anyway. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Feb 9 08:04:40 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: How far can you reach in a dumpster? In-Reply-To: References: <001001bf7258$0bbeb7c0$52e993c3@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000209090440.3da738c0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:24 AM 2/9/00 -0800, Mike Ford asked: >I like it when things happen nice. During a scrounge earlier this week I >put together a decidedly lame looking box of bits to buy. Today one of my >friends gave me a Panasonic Business Mate 150 portable. Digging through my >lame box of bits tonight what do I find? The AC power adapter. Yes >sometimes its sweet. ;) > >Answering my teaser subject, until I reach the "organic" layer, but I don't >follow the rule you have to keep one foot on the floor. You must be a lot taller than I am. I jump up on the side and lean right in. Joe > > > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Feb 9 08:37:37 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: How far can you reach in a dumpster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <13522333718.9.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> [Dumpster Diving?] That's nothing. One time, my mom and my kid sister call me at work - they wanna go dumpster diving. They saw a dumpster getting loads of Apple IIe stuff pitched in it. So we go at it. Got some System/36 stuff, some Apple IIe stuff, and a load of miscellaneous. I always wondered where I got the hacker gene from, and now I think I know. I was bragging for weeks. :P ------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Feb 9 08:50:38 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: How far can you reach in a dumpster? Message-ID: <000209095038.25600e4e@trailing-edge.com> > You must be a lot taller than I am. I jump up on the side and lean right >in. My favorite technique is to back my car up to the dumpster, pop the trunk open, climb on my bumper then into the dumpster, and start sorting and tossing the good stuff into the trunk. A good number of the PDP-11 freeware tapes in the archives were rescued that way :-). Tim. From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Feb 9 10:32:28 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: <200002091440.IAA28822@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Allison wrote: >Warning... Silicone grease is persistant stuff and one on what ever >it's very hard to remove. So a board that requires soldering need >that done FIRST then wipe the fingers with a thin film. True. The Contamination Engineer on the NASA program I'm working on swears by "Simple Green", a widely available (grocery-store) detergent, for removing silicon grease. She recommends the clear, unscented version of it, which she uses on our flight hardware. She still hates silicone greases/oils/release agents, though, because it *is* hard to get off once it's on, and it does tend to flow/spread all over anything it's put on. - Mark From elvey at hal.com Wed Feb 9 12:15:53 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: <200002090105.UAA23517@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200002091815.KAA02016@civic.hal.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > > < > > Warning... Silicone grease is persistant stuff and one on what ever > it's very hard to remove. Yes, I forgot to warn people. The oils in silicone grease do evaporate slowly over time but there is almost nothing that will fully remove it. I have had reasonable results using Brake Clean but you have to be careful with this also. It dissolves many plastics and most paints. It is highly toxic and should be used in ventilated areas only. Don't get the grease on anything you don't want it on. A little of the stuff goes a long way. Dwight From edick at idcomm.com Wed Feb 9 13:11:49 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software Message-ID: <000e01bf7331$84e73580$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, the package I got from MicroCode was supposed to be a "full-up" version and after I called inquiring about the libraries, I was told "that's all there is, there 'aint no more" at which point I gave up on them. We all get attached to our tools, and I am not trying to pass any sort of overall judgment on their product. However, I do believe that the EAGLE package, though it is not terribly easy to learn either (takes about an hour plus the "easter egg hunt" for the various components and proper package outlines, particularly connectors and passives, the commercial version seems to be pretty adequate at a price about half that asked for the MicroCode package. While you do have to read the documents, the autorouter is about as good as any I've seen in the under-$10k category. That makes a big difference to me, since I work at the "front end" of a project, taking the notion form concept to prototype. I don't like to hunt extensively through libraries as I have to do with the EAGLE v3.55 package, but it's free, after all. and little boards of about 3-1/8" x nearly 4" work fine much of the time for my little one-of's. My normal approach is to enter a particular schematic, the same one for every software package I evaluate, and if that works OK, I try to route it. In the case of CircuitMaker, the first 5 devices were not available, so I gave up. That's over half the parts. When I checked with the Tech SUpport guys, they told me the libraries I had been sent were complete and no revisions or additions were planned at that time. The version-3 OrCAD did, indeed have a timing simulator. It's called OrCAD VST, having to do with verification and simlation. There's also a PLD and a PCB package. The schematic capture part is SDT. It also provides an on-line link to PSpice, v3.xx and beyond, from within the schematic capture package. If I were buying a low-end schematic and PCB software suite, I'd certainly look at EAGLE before I look at MircoCode stuff again, but that's as much because of the cost difference as it is due to the library shortfall. Needless to say, these are my opinions and inclinations. YMMV Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 12:41 AM Subject: Re: Schematic capture/PCB design software >At 23:36 08-02-2000 -0700, you wrote: > >>I've got a sample package of CIrcuitMaker and TraxMaker and found it >>wanting, particularly in simulation models and device symbols. > > It would be. I don't believe Micro Code includes full libraries with the >sample versions. > >>would use the same package and symbol. They had nearly no AC or ACT parts >>represented, nor did they have BCT or F library components. Since you're >>paying for a simulator, there ought to be correct models for 7400, 74L00, >>74H00, 74C00, 74S00, 74LS00, 74AC00, 74ACT00, 74AHCT00, 74ACT00, 74AHCTLS00, > > A basic simulator at the digital level only looks at on/off states. That's >really all it has to do. Since all the parts you've listed above perform >EXACTLY the same function, and have the same symbol, I don't see why the >library has to include every possible variation on one part. > > FWIW, the current version of CircuitMaker Pro includes the following for >2-input NAND gates: > > 4011, 4093, 74F00, 74F132, 74F37, 74LS00, 74LS132, and 74LS37. > > While I agree that CM does need some help with their library, notably in >the more exotic components such as tunnel diodes, I have found it adequate >for my needs. The version of OrCAD you refer to only does schematic >capture, if I recall correctly, and has no simulation capabilities. > >>and so on. There ought also to be plenty of models for CMOS parts starting >>with 40xx, 44xx, 45xx, and a goodly number of 7300 and 7600 series parts. >>OrCAD had all that back in the mid-80's. They no longer offer that much >>coverage, owning to the increased knowledge of the user community, which >>would merely point out all their errors. > > I'm not sure I understand that last statement. If the omission of >components is itself an error, why would the "user community" not point it >out and ask for better coverage? > > Also, have you considered that there may be another reason? Specifically, >that the advancing state of technology where ICs are concerned has made >such wide varieties of parts unnecessary to accomplish a given task? > > To be perfectly honest, I've never heard of the 7300 or 7600 series parts. >I do know of TI's 75xxx series, which were line drivers/receivers, but I'm >curious about the ones you mention. > > Anyway, I feel that what CM lacks in library coverage is made up for in >other features. Also, there is nothing keeping you from adding to the >library. One can create their own SPICE models, though this is not >generally a trivial task, and I know there's at least one software package >available that lets you input specs from a databook and have it output a >SPICE model. > >>Have you found otherwise? > > As I've said: I've found that it serves my needs. I feel that it was a >good investment for the price I paid. Do I feel that most EDA software is >overpriced? Yes. Would I recommend CM and TM for any application? No. There >are better packages, but most are well beyond the hobbyist price range. > > Is there a need for an EDA package with better 'legacy' parts support? I >think so. I will continue to bug Micro Code about improving CM and TM along >those lines. In fact, we're probably due for an update this year. > > The bottom line is that a question was asked of the list members, and I >gave my opinion in response. The 'Free' packages simply do not suit my >needs. If they suit the needs of others, great! I was merely offering one >option out of many. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Feb 9 13:46:06 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: LISP machine Available Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000209114606.008c4100@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: >From my recent email: >I've got a friend that wants to get rid of a Symbolics 3650 LISP machine. It's >got the works, extra backplanes, manuals, full data tape set, tons and tons of >cables, 850MB harddrive. It's circa 1987. The asking price is **FREE**. He's >moving and doesn't want to move it with him. Or would you know of anyone else >who would want it? Anyone interested? I'm going to see this machine Thursday night. I'll take some photos and post them for anyone who might be interested. The computer is in Vancouver, BC. More info as I get it. Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From dburrows at netpath.net Wed Feb 9 13:51:57 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <0ed801bf7337$45756420$a652e780@L166> >Yes, I forgot to warn people. The oils in silicone grease >do evaporate slowly over time but there is almost nothing >that will fully remove it. I have had reasonable results >using Brake Clean but you have to be careful >with this also. It dissolves many plastics and most paints. >It is highly toxic and should be used in ventilated >areas only. > Don't get the grease on anything you don't want it on. >A little of the stuff goes a long way. >Dwight Another warning. Be very careful using chlorinated solvents near electrolytic caps. One of the labs I used to service did some studies on why one of their customers was having a high failure rate with the ends popping. They found the solvent they were using for flux removal was the cause. It broke down the seal at the vent hole. The caps were never in direct contact with the solvent - just the vapors were enough. Dan From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Feb 9 13:55:27 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Product review websites? Message-ID: <4.1.20000209144246.00b38be0@206.231.8.2> Hi group, I've been hunting for a new CD-ROM drive and a 4-6 Gig hard disk for a PC box. So far I've not found any decent websites who have *objective* reviews of these products between different manufacturers. For example, I _don't_ think I want another Creative brand CD-ROM as the one I put in my son's box died after less than a year. I can't spend too much $$ as I'm just getting back to work (finally) and am a bit dry, so low-to-moderate cost devices would be okay as this isn't a mission critical application. Reasonable reliability is an important factor (e.g., the thing lasts for 2+ years). Any thoughts? Please reply offline as this is definitely off topic. Many thanks for your wisdom! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From yakowenk at cs.unc.edu Wed Feb 9 14:00:27 2000 From: yakowenk at cs.unc.edu (Bill Yakowenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: free machines in Woodbridge VA Message-ID: <200002092000.PAA15822@swordfin.cs.unc.edu> BTW, if you live in the Woodbridge area, and would be willing to help in the rescue by picking up, packing up, and shipping things to people who are interested but not proximal enough, drop me a line. It seems safe to assume that interested parties will be willing to pay shipping costs, at least. (I'm a few hundred miles away, so I can't reasonably do it.) Thanks, Bill. > Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:49:42 -0500 (EST) > From: Bill Yakowenko > Subject: free machines in Woodbridge VA > > Hey all, > > Once upon a time, I wrote asking for volunteers to rescue some machines > in Woodbridge VA. There was a PDP-11/34 that got rescued, but there > is still a big pile up there that is headed for the scrap heap unless > somebody picks it up. Of course, the remainder is mostly PC > crap^H^H^H^Hstuff, but some of it is old enough to be of possible > interest. > > Let me know if you're interested. (The guy dumping this stuff really > would like it to find good homes, but he still doesn't want to be > overrun by dozens of requests, so I'm still trying to coordinate things.) > > Without further ado, here's the list brought back by our recon guy, > Al Corda . Some of it may be gone by now, but most is > probably still there: > > > ] As of today (1/10/00) items of interest I have identified > ] include the following: > ] > ] 3 or 4 Gen-u-ine DEC VT100s (some with keyboards! :-) > ] > ] A number of IBM XTs (Yeh, I know, but I included them for > ] completeness :-) > ] A number of IBM ATs (Just plain ATs, no AT370s or AT3270s (so far)) > ] > ] 2 Compaq Plus Luggables > ] > ] A bunch of LaserWriter II printers in various states of repair > ] A bunch of Spinwriter printers of various makes. > ] > ] 2 Photocopiers (1 Canon Npf-270, one Xerox (not certain of model)) > ] > ] A bunch of PC monitors, mostly monochrome or CGA (no VGA as far as I > ] could tell) > ] > ] A couple of cases of various PC software from the early 90's > ] (stuff like RBASE, etc.) > ] > ] 3 or 4 large _HEAVY_ units that on brief inspection strike me as > ] UPS (or line conditioner) units. No manufacturers markings were > ] obvious (but I wasn't going to try to turn one over. My back is > ] worth more to me than any UPS.) > ] > ] Piles of office telephones, Old modems, Various unidentifiable > ] electronic assemblies of dubious origin, Boxes and boxes of cables, > ] wire, etc. > > Cheers, > Bill. > > > PS. I've been _way_ behind on answering e-mail lately, so remind me > in your reply that this is time-sensitive, and that machines will > get crushed if I nap. :-/ From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Feb 9 14:54:54 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: ; from mtapley@swri.edu on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 10:32:28AM -0600 References: <200002091440.IAA28822@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20000209155454.A30000@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 10:32:28AM -0600, Mark Tapley wrote: > True. The Contamination Engineer on the NASA program I'm working on > swears by "Simple Green", a widely available (grocery-store) detergent, for > removing silicon grease. She recommends the clear, unscented version of it, > which she uses on our flight hardware. To show *true* pathetic nerdliness, you should always refer to this stuff as "Soylent Green" (well the existing name doesn't really mean anything anyway). If you're lucky, eventually someone will ask you, "what's soylent green?" John Wilson D Bit From elvey at hal.com Wed Feb 9 14:56:03 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. In-Reply-To: <0ed801bf7337$45756420$a652e780@L166> Message-ID: <200002092056.MAA04008@civic.hal.com> "Daniel T. Burrows" wrote: > > Another warning. Be very careful using chlorinated solvents near > electrolytic caps. One of the labs I used to service did some studies on > why one of their customers was having a high failure rate with the ends > popping. They found the solvent they were using for flux removal was the > cause. It broke down the seal at the vent hole. The caps were never in > direct contact with the solvent - just the vapors were enough. > > Dan Interesting. I hadden thought of that as a potential problem. Most electrolitic caps now days use that same bubber seal. I would think that petrolium oils and ozone from chrona disharge would also degrade them. Surpisingly, silicone grease is often used to protect rubber. I would guess, one should put a light coat of the grease on the rubber parts before using the brake clean ( found another use ). Dwight From markp at wccls.lib.or.us Wed Feb 9 15:17:35 2000 From: markp at wccls.lib.or.us (Mark Price) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? Message-ID: Our apartment complex's dumpster is a good source for home electronica (a 13" B&W TV, a cassette deck, a receiver reeking of cigarettes when warmed up, 2 boom boxes, all in working order...), but I've come across only one PC (clone 386). Who has good dumpsters for finding computers? Retailers? Universities? OT, sorta: Our local Goodwill stores here in Portland have the maddening habit of putting all the monitors on these shelves, all the boxes on those shelves, and all the keyboards in that big bin over there... Found the keyboard for a Mac 512k or Plus but could never find the monitor&breadloaf. Then, in the checkout line, I saw it in a cart! Didn't get the machine, but the guy was happy I found the keyboard for him. Later, I thought Idiot! I shoulda checked their dumpster for other odds'n'ends. I've volunteered before to help assemble complete systems, but they don't have the shelf space for it. Good list, Jay. long-time listener, first-time caller, Mark > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com [SMTP:CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com] > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 6:51 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: How far can you reach in a dumpster? > > > You must be a lot taller than I am. I jump up on the side and lean > right > >in. > > My favorite technique is to back my car up to the dumpster, pop the trunk > open, climb on my bumper then into the dumpster, and start sorting and > tossing the good stuff into the trunk. > > A good number of the PDP-11 freeware tapes in the archives were rescued > that way :-). > > Tim. From rmeenaks at olf.com Wed Feb 9 15:33:03 2000 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Need a SUN-based VME system Message-ID: <38A1DD0F.E5B80B76@olf.com> Hi, I need a VME-based SUN system or better yet a SBUS to VME component. I also need a VME rack as well. Does anyone have one or know of one that is being dumped???? Ram PS: Is the Sun 3/50 VME-based?? -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 9 16:10:43 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >OT, sorta: Our local Goodwill stores here in Portland have the maddening >habit of putting all the monitors on these shelves, all the boxes on those >shelves, and all the keyboards in that big bin over there... Found the Don't forget that at least in the Portland area you have to make a day of it and go to *ALL* the Goodwill stores in the area. You'll find one part of the system in Beaverton, another in Tigard, another on Burnside, then another at the main store. Zane (assuming you don't mean Portland, Maine) | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 9 16:12:47 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Need a SUN-based VME system In-Reply-To: <38A1DD0F.E5B80B76@olf.com> Message-ID: >Hi, > >I need a VME-based SUN system or better yet a SBUS to VME component. >I also need a VME rack as well. Does anyone have one or know of one >that is being dumped???? > >Ram > >PS: Is the Sun 3/50 VME-based?? I _think_ that's a 68k based pizza box. Check http://www.sunhelp.org for pointers to info on the various models. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From red at bears.org Wed Feb 9 16:12:53 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: LISP machine Available In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000209114606.008c4100@mail.sfu.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > >I've got a friend that wants to get rid of a Symbolics 3650 LISP machine. > It's > >got the works, extra backplanes, manuals, full data tape set, tons and > tons of > >cables, 850MB harddrive. It's circa 1987. The asking price is **FREE**. > > Anyone interested? YES! > The computer is in Vancouver, BC. More info as I get it. Wonderful, I'm a few hours south in Edmonds WA, I could pick it up easily. One thing though, I would like to find out the physical dimensions of the CPU cabinet and monitor so I can determine whether or not they will fit in my car, or if I will have to borrow my father's truck. Thanks! I've been looking for one of these machines for a while. (: ok r. From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Feb 9 16:15:29 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: ; from markp@wccls.lib.or.us on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 01:17:35PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20000209161529.J18249@mrbill.net> On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 01:17:35PM -0800, Mark Price wrote: > OT, sorta: Our local Goodwill stores here in Portland have the maddening > habit of putting all the monitors on these shelves, all the boxes on those > shelves, and all the keyboards in that big bin over there... Found the > keyboard for a Mac 512k or Plus but could never find the monitor&breadloaf. > Then, in the checkout line, I saw it in a cart! Didn't get the machine, but > the guy was happy I found the keyboard for him. Later, I thought Idiot! I > shoulda checked their dumpster for other odds'n'ends. I've volunteered > before to help assemble complete systems, but they don't have the shelf > space for it. Here in Austin, they have a "Goodwill Computerworks" - all they sell is computers. They'll routinely get FOUR OR FIVE semi-truck-loads of equipment in at once - but they have signs up threatening arrest for dumpster diving, and the police routinely patrol around back. 8-( I've seen pallets full of equipment SIT OUT IN THE RAIN before. 8-( Bill -- +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@pdp11.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | | http://www.sunhelp.org | http://www.pdp11.org | http://www.mrbill.net | +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Wed Feb 9 16:19:51 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Need a SUN-based VME system In-Reply-To: <38A1DD0F.E5B80B76@olf.com> from Ram Meenakshisundaram at "Feb 9, 2000 04:33:03 pm" Message-ID: <20000209222001Z433912-25457+234@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Hi, > > I need a VME-based SUN system or better yet a SBUS to VME component. > I also need a VME rack as well. Does anyone have one or know of one > that is being dumped???? > > Ram > > PS: Is the Sun 3/50 VME-based?? > The 3/50 is a single board system, there is no bus (except the external SCSI). -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From aek at spies.com Wed Feb 9 16:46:10 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Need a SUN-based VME system Message-ID: <200002092246.OAA00585@spies.com> ">PS: Is the Sun 3/50 VME-based?? I _think_ that's a 68k based pizza box. Check http://www.sunhelp.org for pointers to info on the various models. " No, neither is is 3/60 The 3/110, 3/150 or 4/110's were in four slot VME chassis. Most of the rest were in either rack mounted 12 slot desk or rack mount chassis. I'm rather fond of the 12 slot rack mount chassis, myself. Easy to work on, with a big power supply. There was also a 7 slot desk side chassis. I haven't seen too many VME Sun systems getting thrown away any more, most of them now are first and second generation Sun 4's. From aek at spies.com Wed Feb 9 16:47:49 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? Message-ID: <200002092247.OAA00645@spies.com> "They'll routinely get FOUR OR FIVE semi-truck-loads of equipment in at once - but they have signs up threatening arrest for dumpster diving, and the police routinely patrol around back. 8-(" Let me guess, they only put out PC stuff and Macs, and throw the rest away, because it doesn't sell? Since Austin was the home of the TI Computer division, is there ANY 990 series minicomputer stuff that shows up down there? From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Feb 9 17:06:29 2000 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When refering to the "Main store" do you mean the one on Mcloughin(?)? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@racsys.rt.rain.com Beaverton, Oregon http://racsys.rt.rain.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >OT, sorta: Our local Goodwill stores here in Portland have the maddening > >habit of putting all the monitors on these shelves, all the boxes on those > >shelves, and all the keyboards in that big bin over there... Found the > > Don't forget that at least in the Portland area you have to make a day of > it and go to *ALL* the Goodwill stores in the area. You'll find one part > of the system in Beaverton, another in Tigard, another on Burnside, then > another at the main store. > > Zane (assuming you don't mean Portland, Maine) > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 9 16:59:07 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000209165907.01471d30@pc> At 01:17 PM 2/9/00 -0800, Mark Price wrote: >Our apartment complex's dumpster is a good source for home electronica (a >13" B&W TV, a cassette deck, a receiver reeking of cigarettes when warmed >up, 2 boom boxes, all in working order...), but I've come across only one PC >(clone 386). Who has good dumpsters for finding computers? Retailers? >Universities? I live in a tiny town of 6,000 people. My local mom-and-pop computer store (repair, Internet, service, they do it all) routinely tosses out semi-dead motherboards (the serial port got zapped, no one wants a separate serial card, so it's history), too-small hard drives, working VGA-ish monitors, etc. I can't imagine what a larger repair shop would routinely toss. - John From jallain at databaseamerica.com Wed Feb 9 17:07:55 2000 From: jallain at databaseamerica.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: <20000209161529.J18249@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <000001bf7352$8097d590$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> I personally find this discussion thread to be scary at best. What does it say about us? My favorite "dives": The MIT Flea Market The Foothill Flea Market (haven't been since '88) This list. eBay. The curbsides of suburbia Found the following: Mac Performa, Mac Scanner, PS2/30 complete, Syquest, Butcher block table, ... The Greenwich Dump Somebody dumped about a dozen Macs there just before Y2K. Funny since Macs always were Y2K compliant. I took One. and a scanner. One of Five randomly selected Scrap houses in the San Jose area. Companies in the process of "BPR". Went to my first open house auction in the No.Cal office of my old employer Calma. It was essentially a Giant three floor tag sale. There was One row of cubicles not with price tags and taped off with a "do not enter" sign on a sheet of paper. That was the 10 remaining people left there, still working. My favorite dumpster story. Walked all the way to The Jacob Javitz Convention center in NYC once for an Internet exhibition. On the way there passed several dangerous neighborhoods. Was reassured(?) to catch a glimpse of one kindly Gentleman reclining to get some noontime sun; seemed like a happy unthreatening type. He was of course reclining in his dumpster. John A. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 9 17:29:30 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: from "George Rachor" at Feb 09, 2000 03:06:29 PM Message-ID: <200002092329.PAA03389@shell1.aracnet.com> > > When refering to the "Main store" do you mean the one on Mcloughin(?)? > Is that the one down by OMSI? If so yes. What can I say, I don't know Portland that well. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 9 17:31:05 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000209165907.01471d30@pc> from "John Foust" at Feb 09, 2000 04:59:07 PM Message-ID: <200002092331.PAA03478@shell1.aracnet.com> > working VGA-ish monitors, etc. I can't imagine what a larger > repair shop would routinely toss. > > - John Repair shop? What's that? I thought everyone just bought a whole new system these days. Zane From markp at wccls.lib.or.us Wed Feb 9 17:32:03 2000 From: markp at wccls.lib.or.us (Mark Price) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? Message-ID: >Don't forget that at least in the Portland area you have to make a day of >it and go to *ALL* the Goodwill stores in the area. You'll find one part >of the system in Beaverton, another in Tigard, another on Burnside, then >another at the main store. > Zane (assuming you don't mean Portland, Maine) You are correct, sir. Portland, Oregon, I should have said. (Forgive my provincialism, good people of Maine!) You're also correct about systems and collections getting scattered among various outlets. But then, you first learn that lesson as a teenager pedal your bike around, paperback-shopping: "Lessee here, _Fellowship of the Ring_ was at that store, _Two Towers_ is at this one, wonder who's got _Return of the King_...?" Mark From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 9 17:35:36 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: <200002092331.PAA03478@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20000209165907.01471d30@pc> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000209173536.0271e940@pc> At 03:31 PM 2/9/00 -0800, healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: >Repair shop? What's that? I thought everyone just bought a whole new >system these days. The repair shop is the place you go to when you want someone to tell you to just replace your entire system. - John From markp at wccls.lib.or.us Wed Feb 9 17:35:45 2000 From: markp at wccls.lib.or.us (Mark Price) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? Message-ID: >I live in a tiny town of 6,000 people. My local mom-and-pop computer >store (repair, Internet, service, they do it all) routinely tosses out >semi-dead motherboards (the serial port got zapped, no one wants a >separate serial card, so it's history), too-small hard drives, >working VGA-ish monitors, etc. I can't imagine what a larger >repair shop would routinely toss. >- John Do they have signs threatening dumpster-divers with slow painful death like the thrift stores do? Mark From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 9 17:49:03 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Need a SUN-based VME system In-Reply-To: <200002092246.OAA00585@spies.com> from "Al Kossow" at Feb 09, 2000 02:46:10 PM Message-ID: <200002092349.PAA04558@shell1.aracnet.com> > > ">PS: Is the Sun 3/50 VME-based?? > > I _think_ that's a 68k based pizza box. Check http://www.sunhelp.org for > pointers to info on the various models. > " > > No, neither is is 3/60 > > The 3/110, 3/150 or 4/110's were in four slot VME chassis. Most of the > rest were in either rack mounted 12 slot desk or rack mount chassis. > I'm rather fond of the 12 slot rack mount chassis, myself. Easy to > work on, with a big power supply. There was also a 7 slot desk side > chassis. Better look again. Both the 3/50 and 3/60 are Pizza Boxes. The 3/75 is apparently a 2 VME Slot Pizza Box, now that sounds wierd! See http://www.sunhelp.org/faq/sunref1.html I suspect what he really wants is the following, and these do show up from time to time on USENET: SPARCserver 6xxMP/xx Processor(s): Mbus modules CPU: 501-1686/2055 Chassis type: rackmount Bus: VME; SBus @ 20MHz; and Mbus Memory: 640M physical Architecture: sun4m Notes: First Mbus-based machine. Cypress/ROSS Mbus modules later upgraded to TI SuperSPARC modules (/xx models). Code name "Galaxy". Up to four CPUs. 4M or 16M x 9 80ns 30-pin SIMMs. Not sure how many VMS slots, but they're a nice system, I've use a highly modified one stuffed into a pair of 19" racks (complete with 2 big monitors and keyboards). Or just get an Auspex Fileserver, they're still selling servers with VME backplanes. Of course you don't want to know what they cost ;^) Zane From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Wed Feb 9 17:42:26 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Microvax 3100 Model 30 in Kansas City Message-ID: Just came across a surplus MicroVax 3100 model 30. Anyone want it? Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu Computer surplus scrounger, bin diver, pallet mover, dust blower, classic computer lover, non PC computer discoverer, lover of old but not forgotten technology From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Feb 9 18:02:28 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Microvax 3100 Model 30 in Kansas City In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike" at "Feb 9, 2000 05:42:26 pm" Message-ID: <200002100002.TAA30954@bg-tc-ppp37.monmouth.com> > > Just came across a surplus MicroVax 3100 model 30. Anyone want it? > Mike > mmcfadden@cmh.edu > Computer surplus scrounger, bin diver, pallet mover, dust blower, classic > computer lover, non PC computer discoverer, lover of old but not forgotten > technology I've got a Model 38 VaxStation I'm working to restore... Is that a Qbus box or Vaxstation? Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bpechter@monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org|pechter@pechter.bsdonline.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From markp at wccls.lib.or.us Wed Feb 9 18:05:11 2000 From: markp at wccls.lib.or.us (Mark Price) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? Message-ID: >I personally find this discussion thread to be scary at best. >What does it say about us? A. cheapskates B. friends to Mother Earth C. need a life D. all of the above Mark From aek at spies.com Wed Feb 9 18:12:38 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: Need a SUN-based VME system Message-ID: <200002100012.QAA05350@spies.com> "Better look again. Both the 3/50 and 3/60 are Pizza Boxes. The 3/75 is apparently a 2 VME Slot Pizza Box, now that sounds wierd! " I forgot about that one (mostly because the power supplies burned up a lot in them..) They were "Carrera" (68020) CPU boards, with a VME SCSI board in the second slot. There are also a bunch of third party 6U VME Sun compatible CPU cards that were made. Since the application for the system wasn't specified, it's tough to suggest what type of system is appropriate. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Feb 9 18:24:06 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: TK50 with KA650 Message-ID: <200002100024.TAA00163@world.std.com> Hello, Glad to find something besides friction that takes that white silicon grease off things. A friend of mine calls it whale snot. I prefer the clear stuff over the white glop anyday. gary HIldebrand Amigaphile WA7KKP scrounger 1st Class From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Feb 9 23:27:12 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: dumpster diving and other sources of goodies Message-ID: Hello, ladies and gents out there I have found good stuff in the dollar bin at Computer Renaissance: 2 working monitors for my Amiga and a Tandberg 525meg tape backup Price: $1.00 per And I don't get dirty or smelly in the process. And I also recommend going to hamfests -- amateur radio fleamarkets. Quite a few guys get this stuff and try to peddle it for a couple bucks. My favorite line is -- How badly do you want to take this boatanchor home?? At one hamfest I found 19 used DSDD 3.5" drives for $30. These are the standard Amiga drive, but useless anywhere else. Get snooping out there -- the used market is drying up fast due to the low low cost of new stuff. Gary Hildebrand Amigaphile WA7KKP scrounger 1st Class From red at bears.org Wed Feb 9 18:44:46 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: silicon grease removal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Glad to find something besides friction that takes that white silicon grease > off things. A friend of mine calls it whale snot. I prefer the clear stuff > over the white glop anyday. Ah.. the white stuff is almost assuredly not silicon grease, but rather titanium dioxide. It's commonly used as a thermal paste, and if the dust is inhaled it is highly toxic. As long as the paste is still plastic though you're fairly safe. It's when it's dried out you really want to be careful with it. ok r. From elvey at hal.com Wed Feb 9 19:02:55 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:37 2005 Subject: silicon grease removal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002100102.RAA07140@civic.hal.com> Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Hello, > > Glad to find something besides friction that takes that white silicon grease > off things. A friend of mine calls it whale snot. I prefer the clear stuff > over the white glop anyday. Also, don't use the white stuff for connectors. It doesn't work. The whiTe ( zink oxide I think )filler gets in the way. Use only the clear stuff. Dwight From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 9 19:15:46 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <20000210011546.71481.qmail@hotmail.com> Umm, interesting to hear that about simple green.... that would be the stuff that I've always used to clean toilets and tile floors... Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 9 19:21:25 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh@aracnet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: dumpster diving and other sources of goodies In-Reply-To: from "Gary Hildebrand" at Feb 10, 2000 12:27:12 AM Message-ID: <200002100121.RAA07581@shell1.aracnet.com> Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Hello, ladies and gents out there > > I have found good stuff in the dollar bin at Computer Renaissance: > > 2 working monitors for my Amiga and a Tandberg 525meg tape backup > > Price: $1.00 per Where on earth are you? The best non-PC/non-Mac stuff I've seen at the Computer Renaissance in Beaverton, Oregon is some DEC DB25/MMJ adapters (which filled a *MUCH* needed hole in my collection). Actually they're the only non-PC/non-Mac stuff I've seen. I've asked the people about that and they recommend people take all older PC/Mac stuff, and all non-PC/non-Mac stuff to the Goodwill a couple blocks away. Zane From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 9 19:21:46 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000209192146.00befb30@pc> At 03:35 PM 2/9/00 -0800, Mark Price wrote: > Do they have signs threatening dumpster-divers with slow painful >death like the thrift stores do? No, they bring their garbage to the curb on Monday morning, right on time and in place for my drive to the office. I know them well enough, but all the begging in the world hasn't convinced them to set every last living bit of something with a wire on it for me like I've asked. Another great source of machines is company auctions. A lot of companies sell their old written-off computers at deep discounts to their employees or anyone else who will pay for them. You'll only hear about these if all your friends know you're a scrounger. - John From aek at spies.com Wed Feb 9 19:53:00 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Poor contact repair (was: Re: The pure *hell* of restoring a PDP-8/S desktop. Message-ID: <200002100153.RAA11580@spies.com> "Umm, interesting to hear that about simple green.... that would be the stuff that I've always used to clean toilets and tile floors... " It's also widely used in arcade game collector circles for restoring control panels. One thing i'm wondering about is what the military uses for this problem (not everything is conformally coated). I remember looking at the web page for Stabilant 22, and it left me (on purpose, no doubt) wondering exactly what the stuff really was. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Feb 9 19:54:37 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Our apartment complex's dumpster is a good source for home electronica (a >13" B&W TV, a cassette deck, a receiver reeking of cigarettes when warmed >up, 2 boom boxes, all in working order...), but I've come across only one PC >(clone 386). Who has good dumpsters for finding computers? Retailers? After an auction on pickup days the dumpsters often get pretty good. From foxnhare at jps.net Wed Feb 9 20:22:31 2000 From: foxnhare at jps.net (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: [CC] Clarifying my "Wanted" posting. References: <200002091440.IAA28822@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <38A220E5.2CC769B1@jps.net> > Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 23:25:04 GMT > From: "David Vohs" > Subject: Re: [CC] Clarifying my "Wanted" posting. > > First off, here is my original posting: > > >I am looking for a copy of the old Macintosh speech synthesizer program > >called "Smooth Talker" from First Byte. I had this program >on a floppy > >that my electronics teacher gave to me last year, but >the floppy has since > >worn out & I have been searching *everywhere* >for a copy, but to no avail. > >If you have a copy, *do not* send me a >disk image, as my Mac > (original Mac >upgraded to Mac Plus specs.) >does not recognize them at all. I must > ask, > >however, that it come on >an 800K floppy, 400K is not enough space! > >I am looking for a driver for aforementioned Macintosh for an Apple > Color >Stylewriter 2400. I don't want that printer to be reduced to >dust > magnet >status! > > Clarification: I am looking for the aforementioned drivers/programs *on a > disk*, *NOT* as a disk image! Disk images are totally useless to me, & > my Mac does not like them *at all*. I tried to make a disk image once, > but it didn't work. The only 'StyleWriter' class printer you would get going on your 'Plus specced' mac, would be either a Stylewriter or Stylewriter II, and would require at least system 6. :/ You need 68020 mac or better for the color stylewriters. -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-14.4 bps Commodore 8-bit page at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Feb 9 20:24:26 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? Message-ID: <20000209.202427.155.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Wed, 09 Feb 2000 19:21:46 -0600 John Foust writes: >Another great source of machines is company auctions. A lot of >companies sell their old written-off computers at deep discounts >to their employees or anyone else who will pay for them. >You'll only hear about these if all your friends know you're a >scrounger. *GRRRRRRR!!!* *Dont* Get me started with this! Our MIS department is manned by a bunch of goosestepping Nazi brownshirts who *insist* on giving all of our surplus machines to a 'wholesaler'. They used to sell/give them to employees, but changed the 'policy' last year. "We don't have the time to prepare these machines for employees to buy them". Lame, stupid, BS reason. @#$%&* Where's my valium? Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From rcini at msn.com Wed Feb 9 20:31:22 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress Message-ID: <013801bf7370$29c3ea60$4987113f@office1> Hello, all: For those not necessarily following my 6502-based SBC project on my Web site, here's the latest. The schematics are done, I just have to make some minor tweaks. Then I can work on the PCB layout. The board size is now 9"x7", which is way bigger than I anticipated. There are 20 ICs on the board, most of which are 24, 28, or 40 pin jobbies. Anyway, what I'm going to do is make DXF pictures out of them and post them to my site for all to see. Comments will be welcomed. Once the design is finalized, I'll have a prototype board made so that I can see if it works. Rich [ Rich Cini [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> ? From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Feb 9 20:53:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Microvax 3100 Model 30 in Kansas City Message-ID: <200002100253.VAA01467@world.std.com> <> Just came across a surplus MicroVax 3100 model 30. Anyone want it? <> Mike < Message-ID: <200002100307.TAA08825@civic.hal.com> Al Kossow wrote: > "Umm, interesting to hear that about simple green.... that would be the stuff > that I've always used to clean toilets and tile floors... > " > > It's also widely used in arcade game collector circles for restoring control > panels. > > One thing i'm wondering about is what the military uses for this problem (not > everything is conformally coated). I remember looking at the web page for > Stabilant 22, and it left me (on purpose, no doubt) wondering exactly what > the stuff really was. Hi If it is what I think it is, it is some solvents and a little silicone oil. They most likely get the silicone oil from the same people that make the stuff for car wax. I used the stuff for liquid cooling once on a project in a past life. It has some interesting properties if anyone cares. It didn't make a vary good coolant but it also didn't damage anything it leaked on, unless you consider my butt after slipping on the floor. Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Feb 9 21:51:46 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: silicon grease removal Message-ID: <200002100351.WAA08180@world.std.com> --- "Richard A. Cini, Jr." wrote: > Hello, all: > > For those not necessarily following my 6502-based SBC project on my Web > site, here's the latest. > > The schematics are done, I just have to make some minor tweaks. Then I > can work on the PCB layout. With all the recent discussion, I'd like to know what you are using for layout software. > Anyway, what I'm going to do is make DXF pictures out of them and post > them to my site for all to see. Comments will be welcomed. Cool. > Once the design is finalized, I'll have a prototype board made so that I > can see if it works. I'd also be interested in knowing who's burning your prototype and how much it runs you. I still have delusions of completing my 1802 SBC. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From red at bears.org Wed Feb 9 22:02:04 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: silicon grease removal In-Reply-To: <200002100351.WAA08180@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, Allison J Parent wrote: > > I think your confusing Berillium Oxide (BeO, very bad stuff) with Titanium > dioxide(commonly used to make white) which is nearly inert. You're right, I was. It's beryllium oxide to which I was referring, not titanium dioxide. I have a friend who is a painter and a father who is an electronic tech and it's a wonder I can remember in the morning where I left my glasses the night before; you do the math. (: ok r. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Feb 9 22:19:16 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress Message-ID: <006701bf737d$ff1166e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, and I got a spam from an easter-European company offering to make up to 16-layer boards (large, but I don't remember how large) for $26 each, quantity 1. Silkscreen and Solder mask were extra. Now I 've got to see where I stashed it. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 9:14 PM Subject: Re: My6502 Progress >--- "Richard A. Cini, Jr." wrote: >> Hello, all: >> >> For those not necessarily following my 6502-based SBC project on my Web >> site, here's the latest. >> >> The schematics are done, I just have to make some minor tweaks. Then I >> can work on the PCB layout. > >With all the recent discussion, I'd like to know what you are using for >layout software. > >> Anyway, what I'm going to do is make DXF pictures out of them and post >> them to my site for all to see. Comments will be welcomed. > >Cool. > >> Once the design is finalized, I'll have a prototype board made so that I >> can see if it works. > >I'd also be interested in knowing who's burning your prototype and how much >it runs you. I still have delusions of completing my 1802 SBC. > >-ethan > > >===== >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Feb 9 23:15:36 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: <200002092247.OAA00645@spies.com>; from aek@spies.com on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 02:47:49PM -0800 References: <200002092247.OAA00645@spies.com> Message-ID: <20000209231536.Q18249@mrbill.net> On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 02:47:49PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > "They'll routinely get FOUR OR FIVE semi-truck-loads of equipment > in at once - but they have signs up threatening arrest for dumpster diving, > and the police routinely patrol around back. 8-(" > Let me guess, they only put out PC stuff and Macs, and throw the rest > away, because it doesn't sell? Actually, they put out the PC stuff, some Mac stuff, and tend to auction off most of the rest twice a week by the pallet-load. Unfortunately, I've never been able to get off work to go to the auction. > Since Austin was the home of the TI Computer division, is there ANY 990 > series minicomputer stuff that shows up down there? Not that I've seen, just your standard TI 99/4A stuff on their "8bit table". I've picked up some neat things there, and they're starting to put out the more obscure stuff, after the guy that runs the place (Jamie) learned that there are a bunch of freaks like me who will buy anything. 8-) I've picked up a Livingston Portmaster IRX for $30, etc. -- +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@pdp11.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | | http://www.sunhelp.org | http://www.pdp11.org | http://www.mrbill.net | +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Feb 9 23:17:41 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: ; from markp@wccls.lib.or.us on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 04:05:11PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20000209231741.R18249@mrbill.net> On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 04:05:11PM -0800, Mark Price wrote: > >I personally find this discussion thread to be scary at best. > >What does it say about us? > A. cheapskates > B. friends to Mother Earth > C. need a life > D. all of the above > Mark D. Too much storage space (I have a 2 car garage, personally) E. Not married, or we bribe the SO into accepting our hobby F. All of the above 8-) -- +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@pdp11.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | | http://www.sunhelp.org | http://www.pdp11.org | http://www.mrbill.net | +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Feb 10 00:25:08 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: <20000209231536.Q18249@mrbill.net> References: <200002092247.OAA00645@spies.com> <200002092247.OAA00645@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000209222508.00940980@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 23:15 09-02-2000 -0600, you wrote: >I've picked up a Livingston Portmaster IRX for $30, etc. The IRX is a heck of a router, Bill. I have one myself (about $120 at the Foothill Swap Meet last summer). They're still very much sold and supported by AT&T/Lucent. In fact, there's a new version of its operating system due to be released this year. I've gotten to be fairly conversant with mine. Let me know if you want to trade notes. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Feb 10 01:31:40 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Who has the best dumpster? In-Reply-To: <20000209161529.J18249@mrbill.net> References: ; from markp@wccls.lib.or.us on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 01:17:35PM -0800 Message-ID: >Here in Austin, they have a "Goodwill Computerworks" - all they sell is >computers. They'll routinely get FOUR OR FIVE semi-truck-loads of equipment >in at once - but they have signs up threatening arrest for dumpster diving, >and the police routinely patrol around back. 8-( Same at Santa Ana, CA Goodwill, except they have a bunch of their own guards roaming around, plus security video cameras. Items left, BELONG to Goodwill, and generally they get at least a few pennies per pound selling even junk to scrap dealers. OTOH begging or bidding on items about to be offered sometimes works. To remove any doubt, the Goodwill donation box is NOT a dumpster, stay out of it. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Feb 10 01:48:45 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: dumpster diving and other sources of goodies In-Reply-To: <200002100121.RAA07581@shell1.aracnet.com> References: from "Gary Hildebrand" at Feb 10, 2000 12:27:12 AM Message-ID: >Where on earth are you? The best non-PC/non-Mac stuff I've seen at the >Computer Renaissance in Beaverton, Oregon is some DEC DB25/MMJ adapters I didn't find anything I liked at the San Diego Computer Renaissance store, but I do know one thing, they are a MAJOR wholesale buyer of used monitors. From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Feb 10 03:58:17 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! Message-ID: <57.1bc412e.25d3e5b9@aol.com> The best dumpster I ever hit was a ComputerLand in San Mateo when they went out of business in the early 90s. I went to their going out of business sale and realized they would have lots of leftovers. After the sale I filled my Honda car two nights in a row, spending about 3 to 4 hrs a night burrowing from one end of their dumpster to the other. The second night I had so much jammed into the Honda there was barely room for me. The passenger seat was so full it towered over me as I was driving. I barely made it back over the bridge to Hayward, where I was staying. I had to use one hand to keep the stuff from collapsing on me. All PC stuff of course. After they realized that someone was dumpster diving they broke every card they put in. >From 1990 to 1992 I regularly checked Microware's Beaverton, OR dumpster. They were a major west coast distributor until they had financial trouble from expanding too fast. Ross-Dove held a huge liquidation auction which had some very good trash. I pulled quite a few brand new motherboards, cards and hard drives in boxes from that dumpster. Also in the early 90s Mentor Graphics was liquidating lots of Apollo 100, 300, 400 and 600 boxes. I pulled a bunch of circuit cards and software from the dumpster at their auxiliary storage. It was so interesting I started checking their main plant until security chased me away. My recommendation is to check computer businesses going out of business. Computer manufacturers going out of business or downsizing are also good. Check the major auctions like Ross Dove that happen in your area. Computer distributors often have good dumpsters also. My favorite story though is one of my scrapper friends. He had some Chinese buyers visiting him. They had gone through his yard in Bend and were on their way to Portland. Cruising through the industrial area of Albany he spotted a dumpster full of good scrap wire. While he wanted to look he wasn't sure of how these Chinese businessmen would take it. He decided what the hell and pulled his truck up beside the dumpster. Needless to say the Chinese were the first on top of the dumpster happily yarding the scrap into the truck. They were having a great time until the local police showed up and made them put all the wire back in the dumpster. I bet it made for great stories back home. Dumpster diving is lots of fun. Especially if you just dive in. Paxton From thomas.h.lindberg at se.abb.com Thu Feb 10 05:34:12 2000 From: thomas.h.lindberg at se.abb.com (thomas.h.lindberg@se.abb.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! Message-ID: <41256881.003F8DF3.00@smtp02.seinf.abb.se> A coule of years ago we had two very tragic dumpster stories in Sweden, three kids vere killed while reading magazines in covered newspaper/magazine dumpsters. The kids had seaked in through the narrow opening where we dump our old newspapers/magazines and sat there while the truck came to pick up the dumpster content. The dumpster was automatically emptied into a compacter at the truck and all taken to the fragmentation site where the kids wer found crushed. The dumpster openings are now just about the size of a mail box. Thomas From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 10 08:22:56 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: silicon grease removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000210092256.46a7a018@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:44 PM 2/9/00 -0500, Bear Stricklin wrote: >On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > >> Glad to find something besides friction that takes that white silicon grease >> off things. A friend of mine calls it whale snot. I prefer the clear stuff >> over the white glop anyday. > >Ah.. the white stuff is almost assuredly not silicon grease, but rather >titanium dioxide. It's commonly used as a thermal paste, and if the dust >is inhaled it is highly toxic. As long as the paste is still plastic >though you're fairly safe. It's when it's dried out you really want to be >careful with it. Hmmm. All the thermal goo that I've seen uses zinc oxide, not titanium dioxide. It also never dries out. But I think the stuff that Gary was referring to is Silicon Rubber or RTV. It comes in clear, white, black and I think silver. Some people use a gob of it to hold connectors together. Watch out what kind you use, the normal house hold stuff forms acetic acid (vinegar) as it cures and will cause corrosion. Get the stuff that doesn't smell like vinegar. There's also a type that's made for coating circuit boards, it flows more than the normal stuff and will flow out to cover everything. The DOW brand of this type is type 3140 RTV coaating and meets MIL-A-446146. Don't use it unless you NEVER want to get the item apart. You'll NEVER get it out from under and in between everything. Joe Joe From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Feb 10 07:45:57 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! Message-ID: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: thomas.h.lindberg@se.abb.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 6:37 AM Subject: Re: Dumpster stories! > > >A coule of years ago we had two very tragic dumpster stories in Sweden, >three kids vere killed while reading magazines in covered >newspaper/magazine dumpsters. >The kids had seaked in through the narrow opening where we dump our old >newspapers/magazines and sat there while the truck came to pick up the >dumpster content. The dumpster was automatically emptied into a compacter >at the truck and all taken to the fragmentation site where the kids wer >found crushed. >The dumpster openings are now just about the size of a mail box. > I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?) not to enter one. There are so many better ways to find old computers in much better condition than something thrown into a dumpster with everything else piled on top. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com >Thomas > > > From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 10 09:00:23 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default>; from dylanb@sympatico.ca on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 08:45:57AM -0500 References: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> Message-ID: <20000210100023.C12882@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 08:45:57AM -0500, John B (dylanb@sympatico.ca) wrote: > > I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. > That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic > residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?) > not to enter one. > > There are so many better ways to find old computers in much better condition > than something thrown into a dumpster with everything else piled on top. Yeah, but they're not as much fun :-) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 10 10:08:38 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> Message-ID: <200002101509.QAA16211@mail2.siemens.de> > >A coule of years ago we had two very tragic dumpster stories in Sweden, > >three kids vere killed while reading magazines in covered > >newspaper/magazine dumpsters. > >The kids had seaked in through the narrow opening where we dump our old > >newspapers/magazines and sat there while the truck came to pick up the > >dumpster content. The dumpster was automatically emptied into a compacter > >at the truck and all taken to the fragmentation site where the kids wer > >found crushed. > >The dumpster openings are now just about the size of a mail box. > I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. > That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic > residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?) > not to enter one. > There are so many better ways to find old computers in much better condition > than something thrown into a dumpster with everything else piled on top. Say, are you trying to reduce competition in your huntig grounds ? :)) H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From S.D.Birchall at pgr.salford.ac.uk Thu Feb 10 08:56:34 2000 From: S.D.Birchall at pgr.salford.ac.uk (S.D.Birchall@pgr.salford.ac.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> Message-ID: <20000210151640.17745.qmail@rhea.salford.ac.uk> Dumpsters are less common in the UK, though we do have "bins" and skips that can yield up interesting finds. Check out: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1893626075/o/qid=9501 95643/sr=8-1/103-0416203-0784633 The Art and Science of dumpster diving - a bit tongue in cheek, but some useful info nonetheless. From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Feb 10 09:12:46 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster tales from Kansas City Message-ID: I can't help when I drive down the street to stop and examine any computer stuff I find on the curb. My kids get kind of irritated waiting in a running car while I examine stuff.. Our lake community about every 3 years has a free drop-off for large trash. I have picked up more "good stuff" than my wife will let me keep. I usually volunteer so I can help unload and preselect any stuff before it goes in the truck sized bins. Best find was a Toshiba 21" TV with a broken power cord. Lots of old PS/2 and 286 machines and dot matrix printers. The Kansas City surplus place fills bins with the following. Bin #1 motherboards Bin #2 fingerboards Bin #3 power supplies Bin #4 cables I don't know where the documentation and media goes. All of the cases go into the metal scrap bin. I have almost cried when I find something really interesting as a case only in the metal scrap bin. Mike From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Feb 10 09:28:39 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000210072839.00944320@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 08:45 10-02-2000 -0500, you wrote: >I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. >That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic Foo. I'm at more risk crossing the street than I am digging through a dumpster. If I smell something odd, or see a patch of some unknown substance, I back off. It's that easy. I've been fortunate: Most of the dumpsters I've been able to plunder are nothing more than waist-high tub skids. >residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?) >not to enter one. What's the worse offense? Wasting perfectly usable hardware, and in doing so contributing to the pollution of the planet, or rescuing said hardware to continue performing useful work with it? While I agree that there may be legal issues present, they're not enough to keep me away if I think I have a chance to recover something usable. I've never heard of anyone getting arrested for diving, just chased off. In my mind, that's worth the risk if the target is worthwhile. Suggested DD survival gear: Sturdy coveralls, safety glasses with wrap-around side protection, safety shoes (steel toe) and a good pair of gloves. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Thu Feb 10 09:28:28 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <20000210151640.17745.qmail@rhea.salford.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:56:34 -0000 S.D.Birchall@pgr.salford.ac.uk wrote: > Dumpsters are less common in the UK, though we do have "bins" > and skips that can yield up interesting finds. I can report a recent find here at the Uni. I saw a grey cable in the nearby skip (dumpster) which turned out to be a PET IEEE-488 cable, standard connector at one end and special PET edge-connector at the other. And I have the PETs at home to connect it to! -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 10 09:52:50 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress In-Reply-To: <20000210040047.12782.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > I'd also be interested in knowing who's burning your prototype and how much > it runs you. I still have delusions of completing my 1802 SBC. If you do I'm doing a some day project for the 1802 as well... I want one that is more than the basic ELF design (approximating VIP only serial IO). Allison From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 9 09:54:37 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! References: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> Message-ID: <38A18DBD.6F2B1B54@rain.org> John B wrote: > > I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. > That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic > residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?) > not to enter one. > > There are so many better ways to find old computers in much better condition > than something thrown into a dumpster with everything else piled on top. Being alive all by itself is dangerous, so danger by itself is not a realistic way of measuring the value of something. If I had not gone dumpster diving a few years ago to recover a carload of Vector Graphic manuals, hardware, etc., it would have been gone. With the companies permission (and help!), I spent the morning and most of the afternoon checking out things. The value of having things like Vector marketing plans, price lists, hardware, and software manuals, at least to me, is great! Dumpster Diving is a standard practice at the TRW swap meet. The key to this whole thing is *the hunt* :)! From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Feb 10 10:25:13 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! Message-ID: <200002101624.KAA06959@falcon.inetnebr.com> >On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 08:45:57AM -0500, John B (dylanb@sympatico.ca) wrote: >> >> I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. >> That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic >> residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?) >> not to enter one. So... were you someone's mother in another lifetime? ;-) There are already enough laws that try to protect stupid people from themselves, while putting a real damper on those of us who have brains enough to safely engage in "hazardous" activities. Relax! A number of years ago, they filmed part of the movie "Amerika" (which was apparently about the USA being taken over by Soviets or something; I've never seen it). They had a big sale at the end of the movie, held inside the former location of a big K-mart store. People went nuts buying all the clothes and props from the movie. That night, we drove by and noticed that there was a *bunch* of stuff in the dumpsters out back. Upon further investigation, the alley was found to be blocked off with a semi trailer parked across each end. As we were in a Fiat X-1/9 at the time, that wasn't a problem; we just drove under the truck. Found a bunch of electronic odds and ends (props from the "communication van" driven by the "resistance fighters", so I'm told). Popped the removable hard top off the Fiat and started lobbing stuff in. Also found a couple of cool little Northern Telecom telephone terminals; 9" mono screens with membrane telephone keypads in front and a handset on the side, and a miniature QWERTY chicklet keyboard in a little draw that pulls out from underneath, and serial ports on the back. About the time the car was getting full, the police arrived at the near end of the alley, probably summoned by the night watchman. Since they hadn't told us to stop or anything, we just hopped in the car, drove down the alley, under the semi trailer at the far end, and off down the street. Bet they're still scratching their heads over that one. :-) Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 10 11:29:55 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000210122955.4497ee04@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:45 AM 2/10/00 -0500, John B.wrote: > > > > >I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. >That's dangerous. There could be dangerous,sharp items inside some. Toxic >residues (not all companies respect the environment), Legal reasons (maybe?) >not to enter one. > >There are so many better ways to find old computers in much better condition >than something thrown into a dumpster with everything else piled on top. yeah, but none are as exciting as dumpster diving. You never know when there might be an Altair sitting under that next half a ton of wet card baord! Joe From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Feb 10 10:33:02 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <20000210151640.17745.qmail@rhea.salford.ac.uk> Message-ID: There was an article in Wired a couple (few) years ago about guys who did this professionally around the Toronto area (IIRC). They were making up to $200k per year diving! The article was interesting; the author went on some dives with them, talking about how they were actually spelunking in the large (20'-40' dumpsters). I remember some of the hauls were like 500 laptop batteries, 80 used toner cartridges, etc. One nights haul was in the tens of thousands... Never had that much luck myself. The best I've done is a working Xerox copier (with collating/stapling) that I resold for $100, and I once found a really nifty rolling toolbox, as used in auto mechanics' garages, with one drawer missing... On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 S.D.Birchall@pgr.salford.ac.uk wrote: > Dumpsters are less common in the UK, though we do have "bins" > and skips that can yield up interesting finds. > Check out: > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1893626075/o/qid=9501 > 95643/sr=8-1/103-0416203-0784633 > The Art and Science of dumpster diving - a bit tongue in cheek, but > some useful info nonetheless. > > > From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Thu Feb 10 11:33:26 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <57.1bc412e.25d3e5b9@aol.com> Message-ID: One night I found that I wasn't the only one dumpster diving behind an old building. A young woman had already staked her claim on a PET and an Altair 680. We talked as we looked through these 2 huge dumpsters and found that we both were '70's computer fanatics. When we were through, she looked at me, took off all her clothes, and said, "Big boy, you can take whatever you want from me." Her clothes would have never fit me, so I took the Altair. Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs bobstek@ix.netcom.com From jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu Thu Feb 10 11:40:15 2000 From: jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Items for possible trade Message-ID: <20000210124015.A7563@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Hello - Our department is telling me clean up. Some items that may be available soon are: hp 7550 plotter sun sparc 1, 2 (all are B&W, most of the monitors are dim) apple laserwriter II (some whole, some for parts) apple/radius large screen monitors (condition: unknown) calcomp 1039 plotters The apple and sun items have seen heavy use. I don't have room and I don't want to pitch them. I'd like to trade for single board computers or hp integal options/accessories/manuals or ??? Worest case, just offer shipping. john -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * * * * ************************************************************************ From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 10 12:01:08 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: References: <57.1bc412e.25d3e5b9@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000210120108.015a3270@pc> At 12:33 PM 2/10/00 -0500, Bob Stek wrote: >When we were through, she looked at >me, took off all her clothes, and said, "Big boy, you can take whatever you >want from me." Her clothes would have never fit me, so I took the Altair. Did you hear the one about the programmer who finds a talking frog? "If you kiss me, I'll turn into a beautiful princess," the frog pleads, but to no avail. "I don't have time for a girlfriend," the geek says, "but a talking frog is *cool*." - John From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 10 12:59:33 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Display phone? Re: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <200002101624.KAA06959@falcon.inetnebr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000210135933.48efda7e@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:25 AM 2/10/00 -0600, you wrote: Also found a couple of cool little Northern >Telecom telephone terminals; 9" mono screens with membrane telephone keypads >in front and a handset on the side, and a miniature QWERTY chicklet keyboard >in a little draw that pulls out from underneath, and serial ports on the >back. Bill, That sounds like a Northern Telcom Display phone. I've got two of them, they're pretty neat. Joe From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Feb 10 12:39:34 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress In-Reply-To: ; from allisonp@world.std.com on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 10:52:50AM -0500 References: <20000210040047.12782.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000210133934.A187@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 10:52:50AM -0500, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > If you do I'm doing a some day project for the 1802 as well... I want one > that is more than the basic ELF design (approximating VIP only serial IO). Geez I'd forgotten about the VIP, that was the blue plastic thing right? I think I saw it at a show in the early 80s alongside those nasty membrane ASCII keyboards that RCA used to sell. Anyway I've always wondered -- what is the ELF and who made it? I have a Quest Super Elf which I bought in kit form in 1981 (for $106.95, had to work half the summer to pay for it), I gather it was supposed to be a follow-on to the original Elf but I don't know anything about it. The I/O expansion was quite something -- there were a bunch of options on the main board, Quest sold little kits to stuff those parts (IIRC the option to drive a 20 mA TTY from the Q line was $1.95, they also had space for the 1861 video chip and even the 9368s for the address display on the control panel were optional), then there was one 44-pin edge connector, also a ribbon cable that went to the Super Expansion board (which I think I bought the next summer, $99.95 kit) which had 4 KB of SRAM and two (count 'em!) mostly-S100 slots. They had a 64 KB DRAM board for that (I think it was the only known S100 card that actually liked the 1802 timing) which I bought as a bare board, and tore my hair out endlessly getting that to work because I stuffed it with cheap surplus chips from Solid State Sales (which is what they used to call the basement of Eli Heffron's), some of which turned out to be bad. I started out with the $24.95 Quest particle-board/plexiglas case but it couldn't hold the S100 boards or the power supply, so I made my own case out of redwood on my dad's radial arm saw. I was really kinda proud of that, there are grooves for the edges of all the boards and the open frame PSU is nicely contained. So anyway I guess the ELF was an earlier 1802 board? And presumably not from Quest, right? John Wilson D Bit From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 10 12:48:10 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Ultrix 4 manuals avail. Message-ID: <20000210134810.C17060@alcor.concordia.ca> A coworker here has a set of Ultrix 4.0 manuals about to go to the recycling bin. If anyone wants 'em, let me know today, and I'll grab them. -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 10 12:50:04 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones Message-ID: <20000210135004.D17060@alcor.concordia.ca> Someone moments ago made a reference to old Nortel (well, Northern Telecom, back then) display phones, but I didn't realize what they were referring to until I'd deleted the message :-/ If those are the little black-paneled phones with CRTs and slide-out keyboard drawers, could you give me a model number? I've just realized that that'd make the perfect kitchen terminal, and might keep an eye out for them now, but it's awfully hard to search the 'net for 'nortel display phones' without getting bunches of current stuff. -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Thu Feb 10 12:58:08 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress In-Reply-To: <20000210133934.A187@dbit.dbit.com> from John Wilson at "Feb 10, 2000 01:39:34 pm" Message-ID: <20000210185821Z433610-18939+174@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > > So anyway I guess the ELF was an earlier 1802 board? And presumably not from > Quest, right? > I believe it was also from Quest. I have one at home (yes I built it from a kit too), if I remember when I get home I'll take a look at it, but I'm pretty sure is was Quest. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 10 12:53:06 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> from "John B" at Feb 10, 0 08:45:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1720 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000210/22d5dc2f/attachment-0001.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Feb 10 13:10:44 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress Message-ID: <000210141044.25601116@trailing-edge.com> >Anyway I've always wondered -- what is the ELF and who made it? I have a >Quest Super Elf which I bought in kit form in 1981 (for $106.95, had to work >half the summer to pay for it), Netronics (or maybe it was NEtronics) sticks in my head. And I remember the "Cosmac ELF" being the name of at least one version. Gotta go dig out those old Popular Electronics... I swear every single issue from the late 70's had a Netronics ad. IIRC they also had some 8085 SBC's. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 10 12:35:26 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <41256881.003F8DF3.00@smtp02.seinf.abb.se> (thomas.h.lindberg@se.abb.com) References: <41256881.003F8DF3.00@smtp02.seinf.abb.se> Message-ID: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> thomas.h.lindberg@se.abb.com wrote: > A coule of years ago we had two very tragic dumpster stories in Sweden, > three kids vere killed while reading magazines in covered > newspaper/magazine dumpsters. I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that they hadn't been taught not to do such things. It's certainly the case that I've sometimes gone places that I know I'm not supposed to go, but I only do it if I'm pretty certain that I know what the risks are. And if I'm mistaken, I deserve whatever consequences I get. Here in the USA, all of the soda vending machines now have warnings labels advising people not to rock the machine, because some idiots managed to get themselves crushed under machines as they've tried (unsuccessfully) to sodas without paying. Personally I think the machines should *NOT* have the warning labels. And let's not even bother discussing the labels on products that say "no user-serviceable parts inside." :-) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Feb 10 13:34:08 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress In-Reply-To: <20000210133934.A187@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20000210040047.12782.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000210112508.03f8aca0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 01:39 PM 2/10/00 -0500, John Wilson wrote: >Anyway I've always wondered -- what is the ELF and who made it? I have a >Quest Super Elf which I bought in kit form in 1981 (for $106.95, had to work >half the summer to pay for it) ... [nice description of the Super Elf deleted] ... >So anyway I guess the ELF was an earlier 1802 board? And presumably not from >Quest, right? The original "Elf" was a design that was done in a two part article in Popular Electronics (IIRC) that was titled "Build this Elf Microcomputer for $99". Needless to say the idea that I could build one of these new fangled Microcomputers for $99 was a real thrill. So I bought the pre-etched circuit board that they offered in the back with the "basic chip set" and built it. With only 256 bytes of RAM it was sorely limited in what it could do, but not long after that article Quest started advertising "The Super Elf" which I scrounged up the cash for and bought as well. (since sold to another list member :-)) I even got the Super Elf enclosure and didn't extend it past the original expansion board. Then Neutronics(sp?) came out with their Elf kit and it had three or four S-100 type slots on the main board. My room mate got one of those (always had to have a computer _slightly_ nicer than mine :-) The really innovative thing about the Elf was that it was a CMOS part (in a land dominated by NMOS and PMOS chips) and the timing on the externally driven DMA cycle was such that you could build a front panel for it that would use the chip's DMA capability to DMA data into memory. This made the front panel trivial to build (and hence the $99 price tag). The worst thing about the Super Elf was that it used three of four diodes in series with the transformer in an attempt to drop the voltage enough that the 7805 wouldn't overheat trying to drop 12V and drive 500mA. --Chuck From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Feb 10 13:36:45 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Tony Duell wrote: > In the UK you have to get the permission of the owner of the > skip/dumpster to take stuff out. I've been lucky in that I've often been > allowed to do this. Uh...same thing here, but trolls abound. I've never been given permission to dig in anyone's trash; in fact, the mere mention of interest in someone else's refuse has frequently gotten me threats of what would happen if I went against their wishes. I no longer ask, I just wait for a moonless night, put on the black turtleneck, and take a little flashlight with me... Someone mentioned the "anything goes" trash night. We used to purposefully find interesting looking crap to put on the curb, then sit in lawn chairs and wait to see who stopped by. We met some really interesting, friendly people that way, and managed to barter for some cool stuff (I got an original Oddyssey that way). It's fun to watch "ordinary" people trolling around in stake-bed trucks loaded with all kinds of discarded treasures. Aaron From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Feb 10 13:43:04 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: When I was a whelp in Philadelphia, there was a rash of kids suffocating in old refrigerators during a big garbage strike one summer. Hide-and-seek was the usual motivation. This was back in the day when many refrigerators had latches/locks that could only be opened from the outside. I do remember there being at least 20 PSA's a day on TV (a lot, considering that we only got 2 1/2 channels) and special assemblies in school teaching us not to kill ourselves in abandoned appliances. You can tell kids all you want, but some are still going to play on the train tracks, in old refrigerators, in dumpsters... Aaron On 10 Feb 2000, Eric Smith wrote: > thomas.h.lindberg@se.abb.com wrote: > > A coule of years ago we had two very tragic dumpster stories in Sweden, > > three kids vere killed while reading magazines in covered > > newspaper/magazine dumpsters. > > I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, > but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that > they hadn't been taught not to do such things. > > It's certainly the case that I've sometimes gone places that I know I'm > not supposed to go, but I only do it if I'm pretty certain that I know > what the risks are. And if I'm mistaken, I deserve whatever consequences > I get. > > Here in the USA, all of the soda vending machines now have warnings labels > advising people not to rock the machine, because some idiots managed to get > themselves crushed under machines as they've tried (unsuccessfully) to > sodas without paying. Personally I think the machines should *NOT* have > the warning labels. > > And let's not even bother discussing the labels on products that say > "no user-serviceable parts inside." :-) > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 10 13:47:37 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Feb 10, 0 06:35:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 962 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000210/cf207b3c/attachment-0001.ksh From west at tseinc.com Thu Feb 10 13:58:57 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: HP 2100 related manuals on ebay Message-ID: <008901bf7401$44926f60$d402a8c0@tse.com> Howdy folks... I found these manuals on ebay - I already have a copy of all of these, but I thought fellow HP 2100/2114/2115/2116 collectors might find them usefull. No bidders yet, 2 days left in the auction, and the asking price appears to be 14 bucks and some change... I only call it to everyones attention because they are not listed in a category on ebay that most of us would have likely found them... Jay West ------------- > Title of item: Early HP Computer Manuals > Seller: wogilvie@best.com > Starts: Feb-05-00 18:34:59 PST > Ends: Feb-12-00 18:34:59 PST > Price: Starts at $14.50 > To bid on the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=254393623 > > > Item Description: > Operating and service manuals for HP 2100 minicomputer peripherials - circa 1973 > 7900A Disc Drive - 1" thick, schematics, diagrams > 7035B X-Y Recorder - spiral bound, photos, schematics > 59301A ASCII to Parallel Converter - 40 pages > 12539C Time Base Generator Interface Kit - TBG board for 2100 > 12531C Buffered Teleprinter Interface Kit - PCB for 2100, 2114, 2115, 2116 > 13181A Digital Magnetic Tape Unit. Interface kit PCB for 2100 > Essential for preserving historic computers. > This auction is for these 6 manuals + 2 updates. No hardware is included. Winner > to pay shipping from 94043. Check my other auctions on eBay. From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Thu Feb 10 14:05:31 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:38 2005 Subject: HP 2100 related manuals on ebay In-Reply-To: <008901bf7401$44926f60$d402a8c0@tse.com> from Jay West at "Feb 10, 2000 01:58:57 pm" Message-ID: <20000210200537Z433622-18937+181@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Howdy folks... > > I found these manuals on ebay - I already have a copy of all of these, but I > thought fellow HP 2100/2114/2115/2116 collectors might find them usefull. No > bidders yet, 2 days left in the auction, and the asking price appears to be > 14 bucks and some change... > > I only call it to everyones attention because they are not listed in a > category on ebay that most of us would have likely found them... > > Jay West Thanks, I hadn't noticed them. There are several manuals of interest to me. I've put a bid in, if anyone else on the list is interested, we could divide them up later, or I could make copies. > ------------- > > Title of item: Early HP Computer Manuals > > Seller: wogilvie@best.com > > Starts: Feb-05-00 18:34:59 PST > > Ends: Feb-12-00 18:34:59 PST > > Price: Starts at $14.50 > > To bid on the item, go to: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=254393623 > > > > > > Item Description: > > Operating and service manuals for HP 2100 minicomputer peripherials - > circa 1973 > > 7900A Disc Drive - 1" thick, schematics, diagrams > > 7035B X-Y Recorder - spiral bound, photos, schematics > > 59301A ASCII to Parallel Converter - 40 pages > > 12539C Time Base Generator Interface Kit - TBG board for 2100 > > 12531C Buffered Teleprinter Interface Kit - PCB for 2100, 2114, 2115, 2116 > > 13181A Digital Magnetic Tape Unit. Interface kit PCB for 2100 > > Essential for preserving historic computers. > > This auction is for these 6 manuals + 2 updates. No hardware is > included. Winner > > to pay shipping from 94043. Check my other auctions on eBay. > > -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 10 14:12:07 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress In-Reply-To: <20000210133934.A187@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > Geez I'd forgotten about the VIP, that was the blue plastic thing right? > I think I saw it at a show in the early 80s alongside those nasty membrane > ASCII keyboards that RCA used to sell. Some were an off blue and wome wer beige. > So anyway I guess the ELF was an earlier 1802 board? And presumably not from > Quest, right? The original ELF design was a summation of several RCA appnotes and an article in Popular Electonics ('78 I'd have to look.). Quest was a production version of the wirewrapped version. They were popular as they were cheap and pretty easy to work with. Later Quest, Netronics, and at least two other had similar SBCs that were expandable though not always compatable bus wise. It's an interesting cpu, nearly impossible to write optimized programs as it's addressing modes and register scheme were one of those if it fit it was small, if it didn't it got real ugly. Still it was interesting and it was CMOS. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 10 14:17:44 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress In-Reply-To: <000210141044.25601116@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Gotta go dig out those old Popular Electronics... I swear every single issue > from the late 70's had a Netronics ad. IIRC they also had some 8085 > SBC's. Netronics (in CT) I have an Explorer8085, comination of 8085 SBC (borrows on SDK85) and a S100 bus interface. Mine has all the mods including MSbasic in eprom plus a their s100 64k dynamic ram card(good design using 8203). Still works. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 10 14:24:32 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000210112508.03f8aca0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: > The really innovative thing about the Elf was that it was a CMOS part (in a > land dominated by NMOS and PMOS chips) and the timing on the externally > driven DMA cycle was such that you could build a front panel for it that > would use the chip's DMA capability to DMA data into memory. This made the > front panel trivial to build (and hence the $99 price tag). At that time the only hobbiest CMOS cpus were RCA CD1802 and the Intersil 6100 (PDP-8 on a chip). Around the same time sa the ELF article there was the (kilobaud) article on the 6100 (take a byte out of this) and it's SBC (intersil 6960) that was also very cheap. The advantage was the 6100 if the user built interfaces that were PDP-8 compatable you could run all of the DECUS pdp-8 software. The only requred interface for a 4k system was a TTY (asr33) and you could run FOCAL! Allison From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 10 15:01:06 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Ultrix 4 manuals avail. In-Reply-To: <20000210134810.C17060@alcor.concordia.ca>; from rich@alcor.concordia.ca on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 01:48:10PM -0500 References: <20000210134810.C17060@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <20000210160106.B1905@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 01:48:10PM -0500, Rich Lafferty (rich@alcor.concordia.ca) wrote: > A coworker here has a set of Ultrix 4.0 manuals about to go to the > recycling bin. If anyone wants 'em, let me know today, and I'll > grab them. The manuals are spoken for. (This list never fails to surprise me!) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 10 14:30:35 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: (message from Aaron Christopher Finney on Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:43:04 -0800 (PST)) References: Message-ID: <20000210203035.470.qmail@brouhaha.com> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > You can tell kids all you want, but some are still going to play on the > train tracks, in old refrigerators, in dumpsters... If they've actually been told not just to avoid such things, but also why (the potential dangers), and they still do it, I'm not going to shed very many tears for them. If they're too young to understand the danger, they need to be supervised. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Feb 10 14:53:28 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: References: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: >When I was a whelp in Philadelphia, there was a rash of kids suffocating >in old refrigerators during a big garbage strike one summer. Hide-and-seek >You can tell kids all you want, but some are still going to play on the >train tracks, in old refrigerators, in dumpsters... The only thing is this instance that seems to really work is to fine anyone the puts out a fridge without removing the door hinges. Children by definition cannot be expected to obey rules, regardless of the rule. From carons at techcare.com Thu Feb 10 15:40:55 2000 From: carons at techcare.com (Sean Caron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Microvax 3100 Model 30 in Kansas City Message-ID: <200002102140.PAA56532@opal.tseinc.com> > >Just came across a surplus MicroVax 3100 model 30. Anyone want it? >Mike >mmcfadden@cmh.edu >Computer surplus scrounger, bin diver, pallet mover, dust blower, classic >computer lover, non PC computer discoverer, lover of old but not forgotten >technology > > Hi! If it isn't spoken for and you don't mind shipping it (all charges on me, of course), I might be interested in it. Do you have an idea of what the system might contain in terms of memory expansion and hard drives (number and size of)? Thanks! - Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 10 15:50:03 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: 400 gig/in^2 punch card Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000210155003.015f98d0@pc> - John From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Feb 10 15:59:17 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000 References: <41256881.003F8DF3.00@smtp02.seinf.abb.se> <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000210165917.A763@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, > but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that > they hadn't been taught not to do such things. I agree... My parents covered all this stuff -- they told us not to dig inside snowbanks because a plow might come, we all wore seat belts way before there was a law (bicycle helmets too), our parents strictly enforced what we could and couldn't watch on TV so there was no need for V chips (I can't believe they're making us pay for censorship devices now just because some absentee parent religious freaks got upset), they never let us skate on the Charles at all, and we never had enough cash of our own to buy porn or cigarettes or anything else. These days parents teach their kids that *nothing* is their own responsibility, the whole world is supposed to be idiot-proofed for them. It's been a slow year here in upstate NY so far, usually by now the TV newscasts are peppered with people blowing each other away in hunting "accidents" (beer + bullets = ?), along with an equal number of geniuses who like to go snowmobiling at night on not-really-frozen lakes, optionally playing chicken with each other while they're at it (see, the goal is to crash and *then* drown). The reporters present these incidents as if they're tragedies but ya just gotta laugh, Darwin would be so proud. Yet people always want to find someone else to blame. John Wilson D Bit From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Feb 10 15:59:26 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones Message-ID: <200002102158.PAA26460@falcon.inetnebr.com> Next time I'm at the location where they're stored, I can try to find you a number. They're RS-232, but they're a bit funky to get to work with anything else; I don't remember the details, but it seems like they used really odd settings - like 6 bits, mark parity, 2 stop bits. Also, the attached phone only works with Northern Telecom phone systems, unless you were to gut the whole thing and stick the electronics from a one piece phone in them. What I've decided to do for terminals around the house (including the kitchen and bathroom) is to buy some old 486 laptops with color displays and PCMCIA slots. I've got PCMCIA ethernet cards for them, and am shopping for PCMCIA sound cards. My plan is to run Linux or FreeBSD on them, and X-windows, and let them surf the web as well as accessing our answering machine (which runs on our file server, and is already web-enabled), Mister House control console, and the CD jukebox control software. I'm going to *try* to set up either a Real Audio server or some kind of multicast audio server, and have a sound card in the server sampling and digitizing the output of the CD jukebox and the computer-controlled FM radio tuner, so you can "tune in" from any workstation in the place and listen to the radio or CDs. (Hey - I've gotta have *something* to keep me out of trouble!) >Someone moments ago made a reference to old Nortel (well, Northern >Telecom, back then) display phones, but I didn't realize what they >were referring to until I'd deleted the message :-/ > >If those are the little black-paneled phones with CRTs and slide-out >keyboard drawers, could you give me a model number? I've just realized >that that'd make the perfect kitchen terminal, and might keep an eye >out for them now, but it's awfully hard to search the 'net for >'nortel display phones' without getting bunches of current stuff. > > -Rich > >-- >------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- > Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services > Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 >------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- > > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Feb 10 16:02:12 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000210112508.03f8aca0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 11:34:08AM -0800 References: <20000210040047.12782.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> <20000210133934.A187@dbit.dbit.com> <4.1.20000210112508.03f8aca0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <20000210170212.B763@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 11:34:08AM -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: > The worst thing about the Super Elf was that it used three of four diodes > in series with the transformer in an attempt to drop the voltage enough > that the 7805 wouldn't overheat trying to drop 12V and drive 500mA. IIRC you're supposed to jumper some variable number of the diodes, depending on how much load there is (I think depending on whether you had installed the extra 9368s/FND503s (?) for the address display option). REALLY cheesy! And the 1802 ran at nowhere near its full speed, because evidently that's not possible with only a 5V supply. John Wilson D Bit From aek at spies.com Thu Feb 10 16:00:57 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: HP 2100 related manuals on ebay Message-ID: <200002102200.OAA32500@spies.com> "I found these manuals on ebay - I already have a copy of all of these, but I thought fellow HP 2100/2114/2115/2116 collectors might find them usefull." I've already scanned in these interface manuals, and am working through a big pile of others right now. From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Feb 10 16:03:49 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones In-Reply-To: <200002102158.PAA26460@falcon.inetnebr.com>; from bill_r@inetnebr.com on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600 References: <200002102158.PAA26460@falcon.inetnebr.com> Message-ID: <20000210170349.A5717@alcor.concordia.ca> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600, Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) wrote: > Next time I'm at the location where they're stored, I can try to find you a > number. They're RS-232, but they're a bit funky to get to work with > anything else; I don't remember the details, but it seems like they used > really odd settings - like 6 bits, mark parity, 2 stop bits. Also, the > attached phone only works with Northern Telecom phone systems, unless you > were to gut the whole thing and stick the electronics from a one piece phone > in them. Hm, this part's interesting -- while I'm sure there *were* models that were only PBX-aware, an old neighbour of mine used to work for Nortel and had one at home, so now I have to find out if they were produced in any quantity :-/ -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From af-list at wfi-inc.com Thu Feb 10 16:21:42 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <20000210165917.A763@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > > I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, > > but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that > > they hadn't been taught not to do such things. > > I agree... My parents covered all this stuff -- they told us not to dig inside > snowbanks because a plow might come, we all wore seat belts way before there > was a law (bicycle helmets too), our parents strictly enforced what we could Never a bicycle helmet, threw heavy rocks on the ice to see if it would break (then made the biggest kid go out there first), built forts in snowplow drifts, threw rocks at bees nests, climbed high trees, had B-B gun fights, etc. Had enough money to buy bottle rockets and firecrackers. Made lawn-chair pipe bombs with pyrodex. So did all of my friends. We're still alive, and each of us still have 10 fingers and two eyes apiece. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Feb 10 16:32:35 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: OT Responsibility Re: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: References: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000210142230.040a5f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 12:53 PM 2/10/00 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >The only thing is this instance that seems to really work is to fine anyone >the puts out a fridge without removing the door hinges. Children by >definition cannot be expected to obey rules, regardless of the rule. If you are the parent of a child who cannot "obey rules" especially ones that will kill them when violated then you must supervise that child. If you are unable to supervise them then you either train them or get someone else to supervise them. If you are unwilling to supervise them or get them supervised and they need it, then your children will die and I will feel sad for them but I will blame the parent. Attempting to make the world "bad parent" safe is not possible. --Chuck From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Thu Feb 10 16:41:45 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones In-Reply-To: <200002102158.PAA26460@falcon.inetnebr.com>; from Bill Richman on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600 References: <200002102158.PAA26460@falcon.inetnebr.com> Message-ID: <20000210154145.B28218@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600, Bill Richman wrote: > in them. What I've decided to do for terminals around the house (including > the kitchen and bathroom) is to buy some old 486 laptops with color displays > and PCMCIA slots. I've got PCMCIA ethernet cards for them, and am shopping > for PCMCIA sound cards. My plan is to run Linux or FreeBSD on them, and > X-windows, and let them surf the web as well as accessing our answering > machine (which runs on our file server, and is already web-enabled), Mister > House control console, and the CD jukebox control software. I'm going to > *try* to set up either a Real Audio server or some kind of multicast audio > server, and have a sound card in the server sampling and digitizing the > output of the CD jukebox and the computer-controlled FM radio tuner, so you > can "tune in" from any workstation in the place and listen to the radio or > CDs. (Hey - I've gotta have *something* to keep me out of trouble!) Sounds like great fun. Personally I'm hooked on touchscreens though. Haven't got it working yet because cheap deals on touchscreens always seem to come with caveats... I have some 386 mono-LCD tablet computers with them, but with only 2 megs RAM and 5 megs flash, which basically restricts them to DOS apps. And a couple of touchscreen CRTs for Macintoshes which work great, but can't be wall-mounted like the others and I also don't have a lot of suitable software for the Mac yet. I'm just going to end up having to write some software. I'm playing with the metawidgets concept (XML to describe what the GUI should consist of, and leave its rendering up to the client). More about that at http://cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com/~ecloud/journal/ For now on the Mac in the kitchen, I can use a touchscreen keyboard to do command line stuff via telnet to one of the Linux boxes, or I can run an old version of MacX to run X apps but that's ugly because it won't run full-screen. The menubar and titlebar waste a lot of space. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From bill_r at inetnebr.com Thu Feb 10 17:01:03 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! Message-ID: <200002102300.RAA25470@falcon.inetnebr.com> >>When I was a whelp in Philadelphia, there was a rash of kids suffocating >>in old refrigerators during a big garbage strike one summer. Hide-and-seek > >>You can tell kids all you want, but some are still going to play on the >>train tracks, in old refrigerators, in dumpsters... > >The only thing is this instance that seems to really work is to fine anyone >the puts out a fridge without removing the door hinges. Children by >definition cannot be expected to obey rules, regardless of the rule. > I dunno; it seems to me as though natural selection would take care of the problem better. Any kids dumb enough to get trapped inside a refrigerator don't reproduce, and therefore the defective self-preservation gene doesn't get passed on. Darwin would be proud! Beats the hell out of wrapping the whole world in padding and taking away everything that might possibly kill some moron. Historically, it's been things like rockets, guns, swingsets, mercury switches, fireplaces, and all the really good fireworks that The Establishment has deemed too dangerous for us unwashed masses to play with. Wonder how long until some loser chokes on a mouse ball or strangles himself with the cord while trying to plug in his new business card scanner and mice are required to come with warning labels? Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Feb 10 17:04:21 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: HP 2100 related manuals on ebay In-Reply-To: <200002102200.OAA32500@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000210150421.01650970@agora.rdrop.com> At 02:00 PM 2/10/00 -0800, you wrote: >"I found these manuals on ebay - I already have a copy of all of these, but I >thought fellow HP 2100/2114/2115/2116 collectors might find them usefull." > >I've already scanned in these interface manuals, and am working through >a big pile of others right now. > Anything on the 2117F? Online perhaps?? -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From edick at idcomm.com Thu Feb 10 17:11:59 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! Message-ID: <000901bf741e$fc900100$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, that's true, but it's through no action or inaction (I hesitate to say "fault") of you're own that you're all still in one piece. I'd agree that allowing the masses the freedom to kill or maim themselves or others is probably sound Darwin theory, the fact that people, despite their poor judgement are left to boast about having survived despite the cited obviously imprudent actions is adequate evidence that sound judgement isn't a requirement for survival. The fact that my two boys, neither of whom was either taught or allowed to engage in such actions are still around also serves to point that out. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 3:34 PM Subject: Re: Dumpster stories! > > >On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, John Wilson wrote: > >> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >> > I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, >> > but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that >> > they hadn't been taught not to do such things. >> >> I agree... My parents covered all this stuff -- they told us not to dig inside >> snowbanks because a plow might come, we all wore seat belts way before there >> was a law (bicycle helmets too), our parents strictly enforced what we could > >Never a bicycle helmet, threw heavy rocks on the ice to see if it would >break (then made the biggest kid go out there first), built forts in >snowplow drifts, threw rocks at bees nests, climbed high trees, had B-B >gun fights, etc. Had enough money to buy bottle rockets and firecrackers. >Made lawn-chair pipe bombs with pyrodex. So did all of my friends. > >We're still alive, and each of us still have 10 fingers and two eyes >apiece. > From spc at armigeron.com Thu Feb 10 17:40:42 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones In-Reply-To: <20000210154145.B28218@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at Feb 10, 2000 03:41:45 PM Message-ID: <200002102340.SAA30309@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Shawn T. Rutledge once stated: > > On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600, Bill Richman wrote: > > in them. What I've decided to do for terminals around the house (including > > the kitchen and bathroom) is to buy some old 486 laptops with color displays > > and PCMCIA slots. I've got PCMCIA ethernet cards for them, and am shopping > > for PCMCIA sound cards. My plan is to run Linux or FreeBSD on them, and > > X-windows, Be warned, while you can run Linux with 4M of RAM, installing Linux with 4M of RAM isn't easy. It took me the better part of a day to install Linux on a Toshiba T1900C with 4M RAM and 120M harddrive (a half-baked manual installtion of RedHat using Tom's Root/Doot disk and an existing RedHat system) and a 3Com modem/ethernet PCMCIA card (and it's currently hooked into the network at home). The RedHat install requires 16M of RAM. The oldest Slackware distribution I found (3.3) required 8M to do a floppy based install. Don't even attempt to run X if you have less than 16M and even then, you going to have to use an older window manager like twm or fvwm/fvwm2. If anyone is interested I can go into more details about how I installed Linux on the Toshiba (in total spent about three, four days trying to get *anything* installed on the box). > Sounds like great fun. Personally I'm hooked on touchscreens though. > Haven't got it working yet because cheap deals on touchscreens always seem > to come with caveats... At the Miami Ham fest earlier this month, I came across this one table where the guy was selling a prototype Linux PDA. IBM made these touch screen computers (basically they look like a thich LCD screen and are jet black) with a stylus. He slapped a 1G harddrive and installed Debian Linux on the thing. To Linux it looks like a standard PC, but it was a (I think) 33 MHz 486 with 8 or 16M RAM and a 1G drive. He wanted $250 for it. Tempting, but decided for the Sun 3/80 at another booth. -spc (The Toshiba has a BogoMIP rating of 9.96. Woo hoo!) From edick at idcomm.com Thu Feb 10 17:43:07 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: OT Responsibility Re: Dumpster stories! Message-ID: <000f01bf7420$95b97cc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Chuck, there are a few things you may have forgotten. By the time one has learned enough about parenting to be of use, it's too late for one's own children. I've seen exceptions occur, in cases where when the first "seating" has exited the scene, a second one is introduced. Those are the exception rather than the rule, however. Secondly, in an effort to make the nation's children safe from the few truly abusive parents that we have in our communities, society has rendered illegal the best and easiest-to-use tool, FEAR, sometimes best bundled with GUILT, which is the other of these two tools for childrearing. I had the harrowing experience of having a "counselor," and outsourced individual provided by a district subcontractor, tell one of my sons that my rather stern regimen of discipline was "too strict" and, thereby, validating his desire to disregard my direction. Within weeks the boy was skipping school, smoking, and not just tobacco, and who knows what else. His school work was already poor, so that didn't fall off much. It was a long hard couple of years getting him through high school and off to college. Does this shed any light? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 3:48 PM Subject: OT Responsibility Re: Dumpster stories! >At 12:53 PM 2/10/00 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >>The only thing is this instance that seems to really work is to fine anyone >>the puts out a fridge without removing the door hinges. Children by >>definition cannot be expected to obey rules, regardless of the rule. > >If you are the parent of a child who cannot "obey rules" especially ones >that will kill them when violated then you must supervise that child. If >you are unable to supervise them then you either train them or get someone >else to supervise them. If you are unwilling to supervise them or get them >supervised and they need it, then your children will die and I will feel >sad for them but I will blame the parent. > >Attempting to make the world "bad parent" safe is not possible. > >--Chuck > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Feb 10 18:31:20 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones Message-ID: <20000211003120.5798.qmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Shawn T. Rutledge once stated: > > > > On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600, Bill Richman wrote: > > > in them. What I've decided to do for terminals around the house > > > is to buy some old 486 laptops with color displays > > > and PCMCIA slots. I have had a similar idea, but for $200, I found a surplussed 486DX4 with 16Mb, a 540Mb disk, two PCMCIA, one ISA, all built into a wall-mountable case with the LCD on the front. There is also an external floppy and an IDE connector (once I've sussed out, the other I've passed on due to the connector). It's ripe for Linux hacking, kinda like a laptop without the battery or keyboard. > Be warned, while you can run Linux with 4M of RAM, installing Linux with > 4M of RAM isn't easy. True. It's also possible to fit ancient Linux distributions onto 40Mb of disk, but my record is 80Mb. > The RedHat install requires 16M of RAM. Ask me if I run RedHat. :-) > The oldest Slackware distribution > I found (3.3) required 8M to do a floppy based install. That sounds about right. > Don't even attempt > to run X if you have less than 16M and even then, you going to have to use > an older window manager like twm or fvwm/fvwm2. Unless you _like_ to swap like mad. I've been playing with Floppy-based Linux boxes, primarily derived from the Linux Router Project. My smallest achievement is a 486SLC board w/8Mb, a multi-I/O card (for parallel), a NIC, no video and a Connectix QuickCam. After the kernel loads, the one script snaps a picture, converts it to a jpeg and ftps it to a spot on my web page. No hard disk. I even found a case the size of an encyclopaedia, thus no room for the video card. Total investment, $25 plus the cost of the camera. I've been thinking of a similar thing for the wall-mount 486: boot from floppy (or flash - I have an IDE adapter for an ATA card) and use networked storage. I could use the internal hard disk, but I want an appliance that I can turn on and off without worrying about filesystem corruption. Anyway... massively off-topic, but fun. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 10 19:28:12 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones In-Reply-To: <20000210135004.D17060@alcor.concordia.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000210202812.47f79c7e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Rich, I made a reference to them in response to someone's dumpster story. I have two of them, a Display Phone and a Display Phone Plus, but there's not at this location so I can't give you the model numbers right now. I'll try to remember to look them up but remind me if I forget. FWIW I bought my second Display phone from E-bay. I searched for Display phone and found it. I was the only bidder and got it for about $20. shipping cost was another $15 of so. Joe At 01:50 PM 2/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >Someone moments ago made a reference to old Nortel (well, Northern >Telecom, back then) display phones, but I didn't realize what they >were referring to until I'd deleted the message :-/ > >If those are the little black-paneled phones with CRTs and slide-out >keyboard drawers, could you give me a model number? I've just realized >that that'd make the perfect kitchen terminal, and might keep an eye >out for them now, but it's awfully hard to search the 'net for >'nortel display phones' without getting bunches of current stuff. > > -Rich > >-- >------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- > Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services > Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 >------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- > > From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 9 19:04:56 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! References: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <38A20EB8.E26A0662@rain.org> Mike Ford wrote: > > >When I was a whelp in Philadelphia, there was a rash of kids suffocating > >in old refrigerators during a big garbage strike one summer. Hide-and-seek > > >You can tell kids all you want, but some are still going to play on the > >train tracks, in old refrigerators, in dumpsters... > > The only thing is this instance that seems to really work is to fine anyone > the puts out a fridge without removing the door hinges. Children by > definition cannot be expected to obey rules, regardless of the rule. And therein lies the problem. Some people remain children from birth to death regardless of the number of years. At some point, people need to take responsibility for their own actions rather than add to the burden society seems all too willing to take on and carry. From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 9 19:12:30 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! References: <000901bf741e$fc900100$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <38A2107E.9681FB5A@rain.org> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I'd agree that allowing the masses the freedom to kill or maim themselves or > others is probably sound Darwin theory, the fact that people, despite their > poor judgement are left to boast about having survived despite the cited > obviously imprudent actions is adequate evidence that sound judgement isn't > a requirement for survival. The fact that my two boys, neither of whom was Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement (or more likely a lack on knowledge.) The whole thing here centers around respect. I neither worship nor fear guns, but I am respectful. We have probably all done things that would be considered Darwin material, but that does not make the experience any less valuable. Anyway, enough OT stuff for now, fun as it is. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 10 20:18:08 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones In-Reply-To: <200002102158.PAA26460@falcon.inetnebr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000210211808.47f730ee@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 03:59 PM 2/10/00 -0600, Bill R. wrote: >Next time I'm at the location where they're stored, I can try to find you a >number. They're RS-232, but they're a bit funky to get to work with >anything else; I don't remember the details, but it seems like they used >really odd settings - like 6 bits, mark parity, 2 stop bits. Also, the >attached phone only works with Northern Telecom phone systems, Hmmm. Both of mine are presently working on the regular phone system. I just plugged them in and they worked. There is a setup screen in mine that lets you define all the RS-232 parameters. At least one of mine has two RS-232 ports. One for a printer and the other to connect to a computer. Joe From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Feb 10 18:23:31 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <008501bf7426$3a3e3d80$292ad1d8@default> Like trying to find a needle in a haystack..... Would anyone know which handbook/manual the RX01 bootstrap loader is in? I need to toggle in the RX01 bootstrap into a PDP-11/20 with 4K config. If the bootstrap code is too long would anyone know if DEC distributed a RX01 bootstrap paper tape version? john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From stan at netcom.com Thu Feb 10 19:34:21 2000 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: HP 9831A questions References: <3.0.3.32.20000210150421.01650970@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <38A3671D.9F7CDAAF@netcom.com> Hello all, I have a few questions about the HP 9831A BASIC language desktop computer: 1) Did it use the same plug in interface cards as the HP 9825 series? 2) What sort of plug-in ROM cartridges or other options were available for it? 2a) What would happen if you plugged in an HP 9825 series ROM? 3) How long were they produced? I found them listed only in my 1978 HP catalog. Thanks! Stan From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Feb 10 19:55:57 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <000210205557.256011b7@trailing-edge.com> >Like trying to find a needle in a haystack..... Not all *that* hard! >Would anyone know which handbook/manual the RX01 bootstrap loader is in? The RT-11 Installation manual is one place, the RX11 manual is another, any of the "Microcomputer Interfaces" books that has the RXV11, ... >I need to toggle in the RX01 bootstrap into a PDP-11/20 with 4K config. You could just, say, go to ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/bootstraps/ and fetch "rx01_boot.txt". What are you going to try to boot in just 4K, BTW? I'm scratching my head to figure out if even RT-11 V2 fit in that small a space... -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From rcini at msn.com Thu Feb 10 19:43:59 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress Message-ID: <006001bf7434$66f95180$6464a8c0@office1> On Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:00:47 -0800 (PST), Ethan Dicks wrote >>With all the recent discussion, I'd like to know what you are using for >>layout software. On my web site, I have a paragraph or two about the EDWin NC package that I'm using. In short, it has everything but the kitchen sink, but is not terribly well integrated and requires too many mouse clicks to get simple tasks done. To be fair, though, my speed seems to be improving with each day that I use it. > Anyway, what I'm going to do is make DXF pictures out of them and post > them to my site for all to see. Comments will be welcomed. >>Cool. I may do it in PDFs instead or in addition to the DXFs. EDWin has a lame printing system, so I'll have to see which one produces the best results. > Once the design is finalized, I'll have a prototype board made so that I > can see if it works. >> >>I'd also be interested in knowing who's burning your prototype and how much >>it runs you. I still have delusions of completing my 1802 SBC. No problem. I'll probably pick someone out of Nuts & Volts or Circuit Cellar. Rich [ Rich Cini [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> ? From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 10 20:17:50 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: My6502 Progress Message-ID: <200002110217.VAA02405@world.std.com> References: <200002102158.PAA26460@falcon.inetnebr.com> <200002102158.PAA26460@falcon.inetnebr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000210225913.007eb4d0@pop.mindspring.com> Howdy, At 05:03 PM 2/10/00 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600, Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) wrote: >> Next time I'm at the location where they're stored, I can try to find you a >> number. They're RS-232, but they're a bit funky to get to work with >> anything else; I don't remember the details, but it seems like they used >> really odd settings - like 6 bits, mark parity, 2 stop bits. Also, the >> attached phone only works with Northern Telecom phone systems, unless you >> were to gut the whole thing and stick the electronics from a one piece phone >> in them. > >Hm, this part's interesting -- while I'm sure there *were* models that >were only PBX-aware, an old neighbour of mine used to work for Nortel >and had one at home, so now I have to find out if they were produced >in any quantity :-/ Well, I still work at Nortel (in hardware design, for 15+ years), and had no idea that _anybody_ would ever be interested in the Displayphones. Geez, we musta thrown out gobs & gobs of those things years ago (yeah, yeah, how were we to know ...). Now, I didn't work on the Displayphone hardware myself (my group designs the DMS-100 digital switching system and it's successors) but I know that at one time in the mid-late 80s there was quite a wide deployment of them within Nortel for people to use to dial into the mainframe computer. A lot of folks had them at their desks and quite a few took them home. I think they had 300 bps modems built in. As I recall, there were at least two different models, the early model looked much like a miniature Hazeltine terminal, the later model had the CRT display up on a stalk. I also recall that it must have been very difficult or impossible to do lower case on those things - you could always tell who was writing their e-mails on a Displayphone because everything they sent was in upper case only. You could program in a list of names and phone numbers and have it autodial the numbers. The models I saw used all hooked into a standard POTS line. I do not recall a model that required what we call a "P-Phone" (PBX-type) line, but I can't say for sure that one wasn't made - all the ones I saw were POTS. I also thought that it was possible to set things like the data rate/parity/stop bits for the external RS-232 ports through a set up menu. A buddy at work used one at his desk until it died recently, I thought it was amusing that when hisphone rang, the CRT on the Displayphone lit up with a message "Excuse me, you have a call" or something like that. It's been a long time since these things were a supported product, so I doubt seriously I can get my hands on any docs., but will keep my eyes open around work. Alex Knight Calculator History & Technology Museum Web Page http://aknight.home.mindspring.com/calc.htm From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Feb 10 22:13:59 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Old RSTS-11 Freeware library now online Message-ID: <000210231359.25601386@trailing-edge.com> With the help of many fellow archivists, I've pieced together the first hundred or so DECUS RSTS-11 library entries to form a neat web-accessible archive. These RSTS-11 library entries date from the early to mid 1970's, and were originally distributed by DECUS on punched tape and DECTape. Perhaps the most recognizable of the entries are RSTS-11-13 and RSTS-11-14, collections of Basic programs from David Ahl that became the basis of the famous _101 Basic Computer Games_. Here you get to see the source code in its original RSTS-11 Basic form, from an era before Bill Gates and company began writing their first Basic interpreter. These RSTS-11 archives are available over the web at http://pdp-11.trailing-edge.com/rsts11/ As I sort the thousands of megabytes of RT-11, RSX-11, RSTS/E, and other PDP-11 related material I've got in the collection and index it, I'll announce progress in these newsgroups. If you're interested in joining in with the effort, hearing about works in progress, or making your opinion about the web indices known, you're welcome to join the "pdp-archives" mailing list. Subscribe over the web by visiting http://mudd.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/pdp-archives Enjoy! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing-Edge WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Feb 10 21:52:09 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! References: <41256881.003F8DF3.00@smtp02.seinf.abb.se> <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> <20000210165917.A763@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <021a01bf7448$2f685fe0$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 8:29 AM Subject: Re: Dumpster stories! One of the big auction houses that handle a LOT of ex-govt stuff in Adelaide S.A. is Evans & Clarke. After their computer/office eqpt auctions, they ENCOURAGE people to take stuff from the dumpsters they provide for patrons to ditch stuff they don't want out of a batch. (sometimes you buy a pallet of cruft to get a single item you really want, usually for minimal money) I got a Webster Multiport to let my Macs talk to my Netware server and the internet because it was in a batch of junk that went for $5 along with a printer that was all the buyer really wanted. (He gave me the Multiport - he didn't know what it was and had no use for it when I told him) I got a big shock when I found it was worth serious money. E&C have no problem with people snatching whatever they like out of the dumpsters afterwards, as they are paying money to get it taken to a landfill/scrapper otherwise. Sensible. I have some monitors (Sampo 19" hires mono) that the Multiport guy saw them in the bin, asked E&C if he could take one, and was told to go for it and take all he wanted. So he grabbed half a dozen, and I wound up with a few. The big lead smelter here are a bit tougher, you need a business name, (I have one) and you needed a s/h dealers license (until the govt scrapped them) and have to go through their salvage section to find stuff you want. But you can get it very cheap, I picked up some useful DEC stuff that way. (my first Vaxen - a 6310/8530 HSC based cluster came from this mob) > The reporters present these incidents as > if they're tragedies but ya just gotta laugh, Darwin would be so proud. > Yet people always want to find someone else to blame. (One of) Heinleins Laws :- Never underestimate the power of human stupidity. Verbum Sap. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 10 23:16:47 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: HP 9831A questions In-Reply-To: <38A3671D.9F7CDAAF@netcom.com> References: <3.0.3.32.20000210150421.01650970@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000211001647.3b571a4c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Stan, Why? Are you thinking of bidding on the one on E-bay? I was interested in it but I was waiting for the price to come down. It's been posted there about three times. At 05:34 PM 2/10/00 -0800, you wrote: >Hello all, > >I have a few questions about the HP 9831A BASIC language desktop >computer: > >1) Did it use the same plug in interface cards as the HP 9825 series? From what I've been told it should but it had most of the ROMs built in. > >2) What sort of plug-in ROM cartridges or other options were available >for it? None that I know of. There are no ROMs specificly for it in the '78 catalog. That was the only catalog that listed the 9831. It *may* use standard ROMs but I don't think it needed any. > >2a) What would happen if you plugged in an HP 9825 series ROM? I don't know but I can give you Steve Leibson's address and you can ask him. You do know who he is don't you? From what I was told, you cold plug in the 9825 system ROM drawer and it would become a 9825! > >3) How long were they produced? I found them listed only in my 1978 HP >catalog. That year only AFIK. I have a 9831 but I've never looked at the date code on it. The one on E-bay is only the second one that I've ever heard of. Take a look at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/9800.htm". You might find it interesting. Joe > >Thanks! >Stan > From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Thu Feb 10 22:42:12 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones In-Reply-To: <200002102340.SAA30309@armigeron.com>; from Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:40:42PM -0500 References: <20000210154145.B28218@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <200002102340.SAA30309@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <20000210214212.B29331@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:40:42PM -0500, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Shawn T. Rutledge once stated: > > > > On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600, Bill Richman wrote: > > > in them. What I've decided to do for terminals around the house (including > > > the kitchen and bathroom) is to buy some old 486 laptops with color displays > > > and PCMCIA slots. I've got PCMCIA ethernet cards for them, and am shopping > > > for PCMCIA sound cards. My plan is to run Linux or FreeBSD on them, and > > > X-windows, > > Be warned, while you can run Linux with 4M of RAM, installing Linux with > 4M of RAM isn't easy. It took me the better part of a day to install Linux > on a Toshiba T1900C with 4M RAM and 120M harddrive (a half-baked manual > installtion of RedHat using Tom's Root/Doot disk and an existing RedHat > system) and a 3Com modem/ethernet PCMCIA card (and it's currently hooked > into the network at home). > > The RedHat install requires 16M of RAM. The oldest Slackware distribution > I found (3.3) required 8M to do a floppy based install. Don't even attempt > to run X if you have less than 16M and even then, you going to have to use > an older window manager like twm or fvwm/fvwm2. Yeah if I was going to try to make do with 4 megs I'd try to cook up a customized distro using some older code. TinyX can run in 4 megs in theory but the web page warns that you may not be able to run more than 1 app at a time. :-) But running all apps from a remote server should help. I think with 8 megs you could run just about anything you want remotely. TomsRTBT has some really small utils too. Whole collections of utilities are implemented as symlinks to a single executable, and the executable looks at the command line to figure out which utility to run. There's a similar package listed at freshmeat called "busybox" but I'm not sure if that's what Toms uses. libc5 and a.out are also a good thing in a small amount of memory especially if there aren't going to be a lot of processes running at once (elf has overhead but saves memory if the same lib is linked to multiple executables that are running at once). Somewhere I have a slackware so old that it uses a 1.0 series kernel. It has light memory requirements but nothing I could do would make it work in 2 megs of RAM like I wanted to do with those 386's. The kernel would load but there wasn't enough memory left to run init. :-) An idea I bounced off one of the mailing lists was what if code could run in-place directly off the "hard drive" (FLASH in my case) without having to be loaded in memory first. But AFAIK noone has done this yet. My guess is it would involve modifying the loader (in the kernel or in libc? Not sure which) to instead do an mmap and return a pointer to that space. But I gave up thinking about it and resigned myself to make do with DOS and build a custom lightweight GUI framework. At least the metawidgets concept is very portable, moreso than X even. > > If anyone is interested I can go into more details about how I installed > Linux on the Toshiba (in total spent about three, four days trying to get > *anything* installed on the box). FWIW my first Linux box was a 386 with 5 megs. So slackware really did used to run in that just fine. I was using a 1.2 series kernel then. > > > Sounds like great fun. Personally I'm hooked on touchscreens though. > > Haven't got it working yet because cheap deals on touchscreens always seem > > to come with caveats... > > At the Miami Ham fest earlier this month, I came across this one table > where the guy was selling a prototype Linux PDA. IBM made these touch > screen computers (basically they look like a thich LCD screen and are jet > black) with a stylus. He slapped a 1G harddrive and installed Debian Linux > on the thing. To Linux it looks like a standard PC, but it was a (I think) > 33 MHz 486 with 8 or 16M RAM and a 1G drive. He wanted $250 for it. > Tempting, but decided for the Sun 3/80 at another booth. Neato. I'd have the equivalent with my 730T if there were such a thing as a gigabyte PCMCIA type III hard drive. Biggest I've seen is 540 megs, and on ebay they are really expensive. BTW anybody got any PCMCIA drives for sale of any size? Well I'll start another thread about that... -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From mrbelles at pittstate.edu Fri Feb 11 00:46:22 2000 From: mrbelles at pittstate.edu (Mark Belles) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! References: <000901bf741e$fc900100$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <38A3B03E.2DB61EC2@pittstate.edu> Ya know, as I sit back and recall some of the stupidity that I've come across all these years, and after carefully analyzing the actions by our brainless-brethren, I have come to the conclusion that I like stupid people. No really, think about this. Why else do we have the new? Is it not just to inform us of the ridiculous crap people have done that day. You've all seen it. Famous athlete signs 48 million 8 year contract...also picked up for swiping a pair of $ 120 Nike's at the local athletic store. Or as someone already mentioned...2 teenage vandals were crushed early this morning outside of Billy Bob's Git-N-Go when a foiled attempt at free beverages went wrong. The Soda dispensing machine was accidentally tipped on the to young men as the attempted to gently sway the cola out of the machine. Or how bout the one where the kids hopped off of a 200 foot tall bridge into 8 inches of water....hey did you ever think of checking out the old landing zone first? Oh wait...my other favorite, what about the guy who was working on fuel pump of his 1970 Plymouth that blew his right arm off and maimed the family cat...technical reports indicated he was smoking at the time of the incident. :) Ok...or how bout the drunken fishing accident where the guys got trashed and somehow drove off of a 300 foot tall dam at 45 mph. OMG Where are all these fools coming from. My point is that we should be thankful we have our comical, brainless, incapable of reading the manual, didn't see the sign, wasn't looking, fell asleep while tilling the garden, accidentally blew away the dog while cleaning my pistol, or just wanted to get more umphhh out of the family vacum cleaner so I bent the prongs and plugged it into the 220 line ( right before the fire department showed up), forgot how they opened up Netscape 3 seconds ago and now can't remember if it's a Macintosh or Hewlitt Packard even tho there is an Apple on damn thing, common-sense deprived cohorts. Hell, if I didn't get to laugh my ass off every night because some asshole drove his car through the front lobby of the local burger joint, I might just have to go and do some stupid stuff myself. There is no end to the stupidity, and no amount of warnings, labels, locks, chains, security, or advisories are capable of stopping those prone to accidents. I've been warned of every possible harmful thing on the planet by my mom (bless her heart), but if I didn't think first it would do absolutely no good. Just the other day I even notice a "warning" label inside the drivers side sun visor in my 98 Mustang...it read...please face the child restraint seat so that it is facing the rear of the vehicle. It even had a picture which clearly showed the seat in the correct position with a damn steering wheel about six inches in front of it. If there is someone dumb enough to load a child seat into that side of the vehicle...that kid was better off anyways. I wonder, the guy who decided to label that there,,,is he the one that put the Brail dots on the drive-up ATM's? My point...if you aren't lame or dead yet,,,keep diving...if you get hurt....I'll laugh my ass off at ya, but I won't stop ya. mark. Richard Erlacher wrote: > Yes, that's true, but it's through no action or inaction (I hesitate to say > "fault") of you're own that you're all still in one piece. > > I'd agree that allowing the masses the freedom to kill or maim themselves or > others is probably sound Darwin theory, the fact that people, despite their > poor judgement are left to boast about having survived despite the cited > obviously imprudent actions is adequate evidence that sound judgement isn't > a requirement for survival. The fact that my two boys, neither of whom was > either taught or allowed to engage in such actions are still around also > serves to point that out. > > Dick > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron Christopher Finney > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 3:34 PM > Subject: Re: Dumpster stories! > > > > > > >On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, John Wilson wrote: > > > >> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > >> > I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, > >> > but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that > >> > they hadn't been taught not to do such things. > >> > >> I agree... My parents covered all this stuff -- they told us not to dig > inside > >> snowbanks because a plow might come, we all wore seat belts way before > there > >> was a law (bicycle helmets too), our parents strictly enforced what we > could > > > >Never a bicycle helmet, threw heavy rocks on the ice to see if it would > >break (then made the biggest kid go out there first), built forts in > >snowplow drifts, threw rocks at bees nests, climbed high trees, had B-B > >gun fights, etc. Had enough money to buy bottle rockets and firecrackers. > >Made lawn-chair pipe bombs with pyrodex. So did all of my friends. > > > >We're still alive, and each of us still have 10 fingers and two eyes > >apiece. > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Feb 10 22:59:09 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Running a TK50 "on the bench" Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000210205703.0214f6d0@mcmanis.com> I have a TK-50 with a tape stuck in it, it is malfunking :-) I thought I would put it on my workbench and power it up but that doesn't seem to leave it with enough smarts to load and eject tapes. Do I have to hook a TQK50 to it? (I suppose I could bolt a bit of Qbus to a board with power but I'd rather not if I don't have to.) Is there a jumper/testpoint I can change to put it into "local loop" mode? --Chuck From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Thu Feb 10 23:09:56 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: (SOT) IBM 730T and PCMCIA hard drives Message-ID: <20000210220955.C29331@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> (somewhat off topic... only 5 or 6 years old and a PC at that :-) Well as I mentioned in that screenphone thread I bought an IBM 730T. There are lots of them on ebay right now at prices which make me wish I'd not bought that ill-fated DTR-1. This is a tablet type pen-based computer which has 8 megs RAM built-in, 3 PCMCIA slots and 1 RAM card slot which collectively take up the space of 2 type-III slots. So if you put in a hard drive you have 1 type-II slot and 1 RAM slot free. (I don't know if the RAM slot is what is known as type-I, but the pins are arranged differently and it takes a DRAM card... I'm hoping those cards are interchangeable regardless of manufacturer but I'm not sure. IBM intended a 4 or 8 meg card to go in there.) When you turn it on, there is no BIOS setup screen that I have found, it just immediately proceeds to load DOS off the 105 meg hard drive that came with it. Mine came with nothing other than command.com loaded on it so I have no way of putting other software on right now. Floppies for them are rare and expensive. I tried borrowing a coworker's laptop last night to transfer software to the hard drive, but I couldn't make it show up in any of WinNT, FreeDOS or Linux. So I will have to either buy a floppy or a PCMCIA card drive for a desktop PC I guess. I want to try and put Linux on it and get X working with the pen. So if any of you have any of the following for sale or trade: PCMCIA hard drive with more of DOS installed so I can use intersvr at least or Linux a clever substitute for that PCMCIA slot for a PC floppy for the 730T other ideas on how I can try to install Linux ... let me know. I have quite a significant pile of junk^H^H^H^Htrading stock. Hmmm, matter of fact I think I'm going to go add a list of stuff to my home page right now because it's accumulating fast and I need to start losing some. I don't know even if I get Linux onto it, if the fact that DOS boots without any card services being installed, implies that Linux will also see the hard drive as an ordinary one or if I'm going to have to build a kernel that has the PCMCIA support compiled in rather than as modules. I'm beginning to wonder if the hard drive itself is special. Since there is no BIOS setup could I get it to boot from a different sized drive... and maybe also this accounts for why the hard drive didn't look normal to the other OS's. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Feb 10 22:08:14 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <01d201bf73cd$29138be0$292ad1d8@default> Message-ID: >I can't believe some list members here dive into dumpsters for computers. If you never dumpster dive, you will never find one of the really big rats to keep as a pet. What I love is when a dumpster prude walks by at a public place like the end of a hamfest, and gives me the how could you look, then like three other divers show up and we carry away all we can hold while the person is still shaking their head. A prude is a person who doesn't do something they at least have some interest in for reasons that examined coldly hold little water. All I know for sure is that it suits me, and doesn't suit others. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Feb 10 23:55:49 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: OT Responsibility Re: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000210142230.040a5f00@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: >Attempting to make the world "bad parent" safe is not possible. Neither is expecting all parents to be perfect all the time. Children are precious enough to do all that we practically can though. One of the newsgroups on software for kids I used to follow had a frequent poster with a tribute to their lost child as a .sig file, and it used to tear me up reading that. From mbg at world.std.com Fri Feb 11 00:45:50 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: OT Responsibility Re: Dumpster stories! References: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200002110645.BAA00546@world.std.com> Even though one can't legislate against stupidity, people still try... Years ago, some guy walked through the spinning tail rotor of a helicopter (well, walked part way through :-) His family sued the manufacturer because it wasn't posted that this was dangerous... ...come on... just another case of someone unwilling to take proper responsibility for their actions... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ p.s. "Think of it as evolution in action." :-) From mrbelles at pittstate.edu Fri Feb 11 04:53:19 2000 From: mrbelles at pittstate.edu (Mark Belles) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! References: <000901bf741e$fc900100$0400c0a8@winbook> <38A3B03E.2DB61EC2@pittstate.edu> Message-ID: <38A3EA1F.39607B78@pittstate.edu> And on another note: To all those who find it foolish to rumage through *dumpsters* looking for golden nuggets of historical components or interesting stuff. You must also take into account that 90% of the people dumping these types of things are the same people that after a full year of internet venturing still have no idea what URL means, how to manually enter a web address/URL, or are act like you are genius that you *a local help desk phone jockey* knew that their internet browser had a *stop* button! Half of the planet just goes about their meager exsistence without so much as one clue of the world around them. So when you *anti-dumpster-divers* flame all the rest, ask yourself, what have I tossed today? Would anyone else find that old stinky document or manual you couldn't figure out interesting? Or maybe the bosses old computer that no one on your floor could run? Most people assume that things are useless if 1) they can't understand it, obviously no one else can either 2) they can't operate it on 3rd grade level, so it must be broken 3) that just because it is old, or not as popular as something else, then it should be tossed! Hey if I spotted someone tossing out a computer that they claimed *didn't* work right, I would probably assume them to ignorant(from them not donating it, or recycling the parts) and attempt to retrieve it. IMHO information is power. How you obtain the info is irrelevant. Some people are just to clueless to spot a diamond in the rough if it got stuck on the bottom of their shoe! Reading *old* dumpster literature is just the same principle as going to the local library, except sometimes the hours are diferent...lol! So to all those who find it foolish to revist old data and hardware, blah blah yada! You fools, what is dirt to some is gold to others! Mark. Mark Belles wrote: > My point...if you aren't lame or dead > yet,,,keep diving...if you get hurt....I'll laugh my ass off at ya, but I won't > stop ya. > mark. > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Yes, that's true, but it's through no action or inaction (I hesitate to say > > "fault") of you're own that you're all still in one piece. > > >We're still alive, and each of us still have 10 fingers and two eyes > > >apiece. > > > From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Fri Feb 11 02:56:13 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: My trade list Message-ID: <20000211015613.D29331@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> ... is up at http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud/trading-stock.html -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Feb 11 06:45:56 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <200002102300.RAA25470@falcon.inetnebr.com> Message-ID: <200002111146.MAA08032@mail2.siemens.de> > >>When I was a whelp in Philadelphia, there was a rash of kids suffocating > >>in old refrigerators during a big garbage strike one summer. Hide-and-seek > >>You can tell kids all you want, but some are still going to play on the > >>train tracks, in old refrigerators, in dumpsters... > >The only thing is this instance that seems to really work is to fine anyone > >the puts out a fridge without removing the door hinges. Children by > >definition cannot be expected to obey rules, regardless of the rule. > I dunno; it seems to me as though natural selection would take care of the > problem better. Any kids dumb enough to get trapped inside a refrigerator > don't reproduce, and therefore the defective self-preservation gene doesn't > get passed on. Darwin would be proud! I duno - The darwin part isn't completly wrong, just we're talking about social evolution - the genes are way to slow to catch up with the concept of a door (not to speak about a fridge) - BUT if the specimin is in an environment where thinking (and learning) is disencuraged, you'll never evolve (sidelines where a failiure to interact allow learning are inherently doomed). > Beats the hell out of wrapping the > whole world in padding and taking away everything that might possibly kill > some moron. Historically, it's been things like rockets, guns, swingsets, > mercury switches, fireplaces, and all the really good fireworks that The > Establishment has deemed too dangerous for us unwashed masses to play with. > Wonder how long until some loser chokes on a mouse ball or strangles himself > with the cord while trying to plug in his new business card scanner and mice > are required to come with warning labels? Well, thare's a feedback mechanism: the growing number of analphabets ... Of course there is more - I had the pleasure to stay a long time next to the consol screen of a dial up mailbox during the 80s. One may be right to assume that the guys (and few gals) using this kind of service, _way_ before the pubic even noticed stuff like 'networks', have been the forerunner of geekhood, and therefore able not only to read, but also to understand and follow directions. WRONG. I can't count the number of thimes they called for help on subjects like 'how do I break out of menu xxx' even when there was a menu item 'press X to leave', or 'how do I skip the help scree' wehn the first line of the help message was 'X to skip message... You're realy getting sick of it and loose all trust in mankind. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From KB9VU at aol.com Fri Feb 11 06:03:34 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: FS: HP 7550 Message-ID: HP 7550 plotter. Includes spare pen carousel, pens, three trays and docs. No software. Trade for Ham Radio gear or sell. Offers? Mike From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Feb 11 07:21:56 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Running a TK50 "on the bench" Message-ID: <000211082156.256013c0@trailing-edge.com> >I have a TK-50 with a tape stuck in it, it is malfunking :-) > >I thought I would put it on my workbench and power it up but that doesn't >seem to leave it with enough smarts to load and eject tapes. Do I have to >hook a TQK50 to it? (I suppose I could bolt a bit of Qbus to a board with >power but I'd rather not if I don't have to.) A properly functioning TK50 should be able to load and eject tapes even if not plugged into a controller. Can you rapidly switch in/out the red light/button for three or so cycles, with the final position being "out" (unload)? What happens when you try this? If *nothing* happens, then there's something seriously wrong (electrically) with this TK50. If it attempts to unload but doesn't quite do it, and ends up with the red button blinking rapidly, then there's probably a mechanical problem, most likely with one of the capstans or the corresponding optical interrupter. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 08:36:28 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: Running a TK50 "on the bench" Message-ID: <20000211143628.12611.qmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >I have a TK-50 with a tape stuck in it, it is malfunking :-) > > If it attempts to unload but > doesn't quite do it, and ends up with the red button blinking rapidly, > then there's probably a mechanical problem, most likely with one of the > capstans or the corresponding optical interrupter. I have a problem with one TK50 that the connector between the motors and one of the PCBs is flaky. It will load tapes sometimes, but eventually, the tape goes slack in the drive and won't rewind. I've fiddled with it enough that the next time I need to use this particular unit, I'm going to take Allison's advice and solder the motors to the board. I would remove the covers and see what state the tape is in. It might be half-in, half-out, it might be stuck on the leader, indicating a problem with the optical interrupters as mentioned before. Also, when you get the tape out, finally, inspect the barb at the end of the takeup leader in the drive (not the cassette). If it is crimped, you'll get unreliable loading. If it's missing, you won't get *any* loading. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From steverob at hotoffice.com Fri Feb 11 09:31:30 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:39 2005 Subject: PR1ME Available Message-ID: <01BF747B.29513310.steverob@hotoffice.com> Found this in another newsgroup: -------------------------------------------------------------------- We have a Prime 9650 computer available to a good home. This system was under ComputerVision maintenance until they dropped support for the 9650 last July. There are two system cabinets and a half-height tape drive cabinet. Our company was at one time a Prime business partner. This machine was purchased under an agreement that allows us to resell the machine WITH the operating system after a usage period (long past). Stuff that is working 100%: 9650 CPU, 6 mb memory PRIMOS Operating System (32 user?) ICS-II 32 ports Y2K Primos tape set (not installed) (2) 315 MB Disk drives (one nearly "new") 8mm Prime tape drive COBOL Compiler FORMS, MIDASPLUS PRIMELINK, 10 user. Lost of Manuals Additional stuff that doesn't necessarily work: 1/2" reel tape drive 3200 bpi (needs minor work) CDC 496 MB Disk drive and cabinet (crashed probably) 1/4" cartridge tape drive (worked when we unplugged it 5 years ago) Contact: Kevin Davidson QS Technologies kevin@qsinc.com (864) 232-2666 x 3505 ----------------------------------------------- Sounds like a really cool system. The system is located in Greenville SC and consists of two LARGE cabinets and one smaller one. The whole lot probably weighs 1000+ lbs. As always, reply to the original poster, not me! Steve Robertson From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Feb 11 09:59:17 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: Web archive of old Usenet posts Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000211095917.01457a00@pc> Several times in the past I've ranted to this list about my hope for a more ancient version of DejaNews, a web archive of old Usenet posts. Below is an e-mail I received from someone who has the start of an archive. He's searching for more volunteers for the project. I think this would be a tremendous resource for classic computer collectors and historians. - John To: John Foust Subject: Re: Old usenet news? From: Michael Stutz X-Mailer: MH-E (emacs20) X-Url: http://dsl.org/ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:16:57 -0500 Sender: m@dsl.org Been thinking about a potential Usenet archive restoration project lately, how such a project might work. I don't think it's a one-man job -- too many people are probably going to have different ideas on how to store it, availability, interface, etc. This is what I think needs to happen: - there needs to be some kind of public discussion area for the project (like a newsgroup or mailing list) - a repository needs to be put in place, where people can send their archives. any size would probably be good enough to begin with, even a few gigs. hard drives are cheap now and it shouldn't be too difficult for someone to be able to get at least 10gb, which i think should be enough to at least begin assembling some of the old years, and whatever misc. stuff from pre-95 that people have? While I'm very interested in this, I don't have time to oversee or coordinate it. (I assume that you don't, either?) However, I've been assembling what notes I can -- URLs of known archives, addresses of interested people, related threads. I've begun putting all this together in html and plan on putting it on the web, just to make a convergence point for likeminded individuals -- maybe it might provide the impetus for someone else to begin such a project? Or at least get the attention of someone who has a 20gb hard drive on some ftp box at some university or organization somewhere, where some of the old archives could begin to be reassembled? (I'd think such a restoration project would make a great research project for someone, maybe?) As I think I mentioned before, I've got some archives from specific groups, and a lot of old threads and even single articles saved. If there was a coordinator and a system in place (even 1gb to start? or a box with access to a cd-burner or some other removeable media?), I bet a post to slashdot would draw in hundreds of people like me, or more, with their old archives. m P.S. On a related note, I'd like to see an open-source replacement for imdb.com happen, but again it's not a project I can take on right now. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Feb 11 10:04:03 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: Running a TK50 "on the bench" Message-ID: <000211110403.256013cc@trailing-edge.com> >I have a problem with one TK50 that the connector between the motors >and one of the PCBs is flaky. It will load tapes sometimes, but >eventually, the tape goes slack in the drive and won't rewind. In my experience this particular problem is often due to the capstan near the take-up reel side. If the tape gets pulled over the capstan without the capstan actually turning, the TK50 gets confused and thinks that no tape motion is taking place, so it gives up. Check that all the capstans turn nice and freely before assuming the problem is in the electronics. >I would remove the covers and see what state the tape is in. It might be >half-in, half-out, it might be stuck on the leader, indicating a problem >with the optical interrupters as mentioned before. Also, when you get the >tape out, finally, inspect the barb at the end of the takeup leader in the >drive (not the cassette). If it is crimped, you'll get unreliable loading. >If it's missing, you won't get *any* loading. Absolutely - in fact, before loading a TK50 in unknown condition it's always a good idea to make sure the take-up doo-dad is in the correct position and in good shape. Tim. From ernestls at home.com Fri Feb 11 10:10:59 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Manuals/software to trade. Message-ID: <000001bf74aa$96af5ac0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> I have several TRS-80 user manuals with the original software to trade or sell. I would like to trade them for something of a vintage computer nature. I'm a general collector of vintage computers so anything of interest will be considered. If no one wants them, then I'll stick them on Ebay. These manuals are all in good condition, and the disks are all 5.25 size. 1. Model 4 Disk Sciptsit Ver. 1.00 -this is a word processing program for the TRS-80 Model 4. It lets you type, proof-read, revise, print, and save. This program is in it's original :SFD box, with the user manual, reference card, registration card, etc., and the original software disk (for TRSDOS 6.01.00.) (1983) 2. Model 4 TRSDOS 6.2 Utilities Manual -this is the original large, brown vinyl notebook binder (catalog #26-0315.) It includes the original TRSDOS 6.2 Utilities disk, in the inner sleeve pocket. (1983) 3. Model 1/3 Hard Disk Operating System Manual -this is the original large, brown vinyl notebook binder (catalog #26-1130.) This manual explains how to setup, install, and operate the Hard Disk System using LDOS, on the Model 1 and Model 3 computers. This is a thick user manual, and it includes two original disks -Model 3 Hard Disk Operating System LDOS Ver. 5.1.3, and the Model 3 Hard Disk Operating System Initialization Disk LDOS Ver. 5.1.3., in the inner sleeve. 4. Model 4 Disk System Owner's Manual -this is the original large, brown vinyl notebook binder (catalog #26-0316 I think.)This manual explains how to use the Model 4 (with floppy disks,) and how to use TRSDOS Ver. 6. It includes the original TRSDOS Ver. 6 and BASIC Interpreter Disk. (1983) 5. Model 4 VideoTex Plus User Manual -this is the original large, brown vinyl notebook binder (catalog # 26-1598.) This manual is in three parts -the Dow Jones Information Service User Guide, the CompuServe Information Service User Guide, and the VideoTex Plus User Guide. VideoTex Plus is a communications program for communicating with information services, and other host computers. It includes the original VideoTex Plus program disk for TRSDOS 6. (1983.) 6. Model 4p (portable) -original MODELA/III File program disk -for use with TRSDOS 1.3 only. (catalog # 700-3213.) 7. Several non-original program disks on Radio Shack TRS-80 Brand Floppy disks. I don't know what versions or OS these disks are but they are for the TRS-80 (Model unknown) -PFS Report on bootable disk -PFS File on bootable disk -PFS File Backup (non bootable) -VisiCalc on bootable disk -VisiCalc on bootable disk (2nd) -VisiCalc Backup (non bootable) -Scriptsit on bootable disk -BASIC 2c GoldKey Revision 1.03.00 (3/85) Let me know if you're interested, and you can contact me directly at ernestls@home.com or leucoplast@seanet.com. Thanks, Ernest From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 11 11:23:38 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: <38A3EA1F.39607B78@pittstate.edu> Message-ID: > also take into account that 90% of the people dumping these types of things are the > same people that after a full year of internet venturing still have no idea what URL Or how to limit line length to LESS than 80 characters And as to the braille keypads on drive-thru ATMs: Although there was a cockamamie notion that it was due to manufacturers selecting one keypad to use regardless of whether a given unit would end up in drive-thru or not, we all know that the REAL reason is so that you won't have to tell your PIN (password) to your dog who drives you to the ATM. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Feb 11 12:06:09 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have this URL and I'd like to find their netaddress n.n.n.n, how? ******http://opt-inbroadcasts.net/remove/remove4.html Apparently this is a spam gatherer as I got mail with this as the way to get on their remove list. I suspect it's really a collect list. Also while looking around (with arp) I have a few address I don't know and would like to translate that to a url or domain name. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 11 12:09:44 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: FS: HP 7550 In-Reply-To: FS: HP 7550 (KB9VU@aol.com) References: Message-ID: <14500.20584.930125.771443@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 11, KB9VU@aol.com wrote: > HP 7550 plotter. Includes spare pen carousel, pens, three trays and docs. > No software. Trade for Ham Radio gear or sell. Offers? Wow...the 7550 is a beautiful machine! I'd definitely be interested in buying it, but I already have one! :-) -Dave McGuire From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Feb 11 11:15:23 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. Message-ID: <005901bf74b3$94e58120$aa28d1d8@default> US customs has decided that people/companies in the US are avoiding tariffs by "importing computer components through Canada" ... even if they are over 30 years old. I (and others I know) in Canada have had quite a few problems (just over the last two months) shipping computer components and documentation to the US. My last eBay buyer spent quite a bit of time trying to convince US customs they were not trying to avoid tariffs... [these materials were well over 25 years old] I wanted every Canadian List member to know that if you indicate the contents of the package to contain computer parts/manuals then, no mater how old, these items could be held up in customs or rejected if you don't provide contact info to customs. (customs doesn't seem to have a clue that *old* computer parts fall outside their tariff issue). Since computer parts are "electronic boards/parts" and manuals/documentation can fall under "books" I recommend describing items as such. Shipping whole mini computers are another issue. Generally, make sure both phone numbers are on the parcel so US customs can contact the shipper/buyer immediately with their concerns. Good luck! john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Feb 11 12:32:48 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? Message-ID: <000211133248.256013cc@trailing-edge.com> >Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? I don't think it is actually routed anywhere, but it's part of a block that belongs to Microsoft according to the ARIN ( http;//www.arin.net/whois/ ): Microsoft Corporation (NETBLK-MICROSOFT-BBLK) One Microsoft Way Redmond, WA 98052 Netname: MICROSOFT-BBLK Netblock: 157.54.0.0 - 157.60.0.0 Coordinator: Parameshwaran, Krishnan (KP26-ARIN) KrishnaP@MICROSOFT.COM (206) 882-8080 Record last updated on 14-Oct-1998. Database last updated on 11-Feb-2000 05:36:03 EDT. >I have this URL and I'd like to find their netaddress n.n.n.n, how? >******http://opt-inbroadcasts.net/remove/remove4.html >Apparently this is a spam gatherer as I got mail with this as the way >to get on their remove list. I suspect it's really a collect list. $ mu nslookup opt-inbroadcasts.net Server: LOCALHOST Address: 127.0.0.1 Name: OPT-INBROADCASTS.NET Address: 208.26.83.110 $ whois/host=whois.networksolutions.com opt-inbroadcasts.net Registrant: opt-inbroadcasts.net (OPT-INBROADCASTS2-DOM) 4400 NW 19th Ave Suite B Pompano, FL 33064 US >Also while looking around (with arp) I have a few address I don't know >and would like to translate that to a url or domain name. Doing a reverse nslookup may work, *if* they've got a PTR record and they haven't chosen to purposefully put wrong information in the PTR record. A traceroute may sometimes give useful results if the IP address is actually in the routing tables. If it's not in the routing tables, you may as well pop Elvis into the 8-track and listen to "Return to Sender." -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Feb 11 12:40:51 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: Running a TK50 "on the bench" In-Reply-To: <000211082156.256013c0@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000211103622.00930130@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 08:21 AM 2/11/00 -0500, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >A properly functioning TK50 should be able to load and eject tapes >even if not plugged into a controller. That's good to know. When powered up the green light on the left goes on and the red button/light doesn't do anything. I took the bronze cover off and the tape is attached to the leader grabber thingy but hasn't yet made a wrap around the hub. >Can you rapidly switch in/out the red light/button for three or so cycles, >with the final position being "out" (unload)? What happens when you >try this? If *nothing* happens, then there's something seriously >wrong (electrically) with this TK50. If it attempts to unload but >doesn't quite do it, and ends up with the red button blinking rapidly, >then there's probably a mechanical problem, most likely with one of the >capstans or the corresponding optical interrupter. I didn't try it "three or so" times, I did push the button in, and then push it again to leave it out and nothing seemed to happen. To be honest though if it blinked for just a second i wouldn't have seen it. I'm going to look carefully at the capstan roller to see if it is turnable. --Chuck From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Feb 11 13:43:22 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! In-Reply-To: References: <38A3EA1F.39607B78@pittstate.edu> Message-ID: <200002111844.TAA22820@mail2.siemens.de> > > also take into account that 90% of the people dumping these types of things are the > > same people that after a full year of internet venturing still have no idea what URL > Or how to limit line length to LESS than 80 characters Hey, any usefull system limits text length to 72 caracters (or better 71, since column 72 is reserved for the 'continue' asterix), since you need column 1 to 8 for the key :) SCNR Hans -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Feb 11 12:47:35 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.20000211104245.044d4f10@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> >I have this URL and I'd like to find their netaddress n.n.n.n, how? > >******http://opt-inbroadcasts.net/remove/remove4.html >Apparently this is a spam gatherer as I got mail with this as the way >to get on their remove list. I suspect it's really a collect list. One way is to type 'ping opt-inbroadcasts.net' which will look up the name in DNS and then try to send it an ICMP echo message. The version of ping I've got on FreeBSD also prints out the IP address when it does this. It gives 208.26.83.110 as its IP address. Then there is the 'whois' command that will tell you where the domain is registers (you can also goto www.internic.net for this) --Chuck From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Feb 11 12:57:52 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. Message-ID: <000211135752.256013cc@trailing-edge.com> >US customs has decided As with all bureacracies, trying to make a blanket statement is difficult and usually wrong... > that people/companies in the US are avoiding tariffs >by "importing computer components through Canada" ... even if they are over >30 years old. Do you have a particular source for this information? I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm saying that I want to learn more. If there's some specific directive number that'll be particularly valuable. >I (and others I know) in Canada have had quite a few problems (just over the >last two months) shipping computer components and documentation to the US. Oh, absolutely. I've had Canadian *government* customers with their media turned back at the border because the US government couldn't make head or tails of what it was. (These were 8" floppies and paper tapes, BTW.) That particular governmental agency now flies the media down in an employee's luggage. >I wanted every Canadian List member to know that if you indicate the >contents of the package to contain computer parts/manuals then, no mater how >old, these items could be held up in customs or rejected if you don't >provide contact info to customs. (customs doesn't seem to have a clue that >*old* computer parts fall outside their tariff issue). You're using the wrong language. If you claim to US customs that what you're doing falls outside their scope, you're only going to convince them that what you're dong is something that they should be concerned with. This isn't an attitude unique to US customs, it'll happen with most any customs service. In particular, to a customs officer "old" often means "potentially antique and valuable". And I've had Canadian customs officials explain to me several times that "zero value" is not possible. If it had no value, you wouldn't be trying to ship it. >Generally, make sure both phone numbers >are on the parcel so US customs can contact the shipper/buyer immediately >with their concerns. Absolutely. I despise customs brokers - and even more their charges - but sometimes having someone there to expedite things is worth the bucks. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Feb 11 13:06:17 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: Running a TK50 "on the bench" Message-ID: <000211140617.256013cc@trailing-edge.com> >>A properly functioning TK50 should be able to load and eject tapes >>even if not plugged into a controller. >That's good to know. When powered up the green light on the left goes on >and the red button/light doesn't do anything. I took the bronze cover off >and the tape is attached to the leader grabber thingy but hasn't yet made a >wrap around the hub. Has leader been pulled out of the cartridge at all? If not, then you can just nudge the door-unlock solenoid (on the right side of the drive near the front) and pull the cartridge out. If the leader *has* been pulled out of the cartridge, trying to do this will leave you with a big mess. >push it again to leave it out and nothing seemed to happen. To be honest >though if it blinked for just a second i wouldn't have seen it. I'm going >to look carefully at the capstan roller to see if it is turnable. If it's not trying to move the tape at all, I don't think it's the capstan roller. One question that's vitally important right here: is this an important tape stuck in the drive, or a scratch tape? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From barry at dobyns.com Fri Feb 11 13:10:37 2000 From: barry at dobyns.com (Barry A. Dobyns) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? Message-ID: <015401bf74c3$aeb97e20$5faafd26@thinman.dobyns.com> Most of the following is at the command prompt of the nearest Unix/Linux/NetBSD box) First you ping it to see if it's really there: [bdobyns@dobyns bdobyns]$ ping -c 100 157.55.85.212 PING 157.55.85.212 (157.55.85.212): 56 data bytes --- 157.55.85.212 ping statistics --- 100 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100% packet loss [bdobyns@dobyns bdobyns]$ Of course, it's not. so then you try to do reverse DNS on it. [bdobyns@dobyns bdobyns]$ nslookup Default Server: dobyns.com Address: 38.253.170.188 > set type=any > 212.85.55.157.in-addr.arpa. Server: dobyns.com Address: 38.253.170.188 *** dobyns.com can't find 212.85.55.157.in-addr.arpa.: Non-existent host/domain > 85.55.157.in-addr.arpa. Server: dobyns.com Address: 38.253.170.188 *** dobyns.com can't find 85.55.157.in-addr.arpa.: Non-existent host/domain > 55.157.in-addr.arpa. Server: dobyns.com Address: 38.253.170.188 *** dobyns.com can't find 55.157.in-addr.arpa.: Non-existent host/domain > 157.in-addr.arpa. Server: dobyns.com Address: 38.253.170.188 in-addr.arpa origin = A.ROOT-SERVERS.NET mail addr = hostmaster.INTERNIC.NET serial = 2000021014 refresh = 1800 (30M) retry = 900 (15M) expire = 604800 (1W) minimum ttl = 86400 (1D) > exit [bdobyns@dobyns bdobyns]$ Of course that fails since spammers don't ever have reverse DNS set up right. Then we try a traceroute, to see if we can "get close" and figure out where it's from. [bdobyns@dobyns bdobyns]$ !/usr /usr/sbin/traceroute 157.55.85.212 traceroute: Warning: Multiple interfaces found; using 38.253.170.190 @ eth0 traceroute to 157.55.85.212 (157.55.85.212), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 ipr254.dobyns.com (38.253.170.254) 2.776 ms 2.666 ms 2.665 ms 2 38-default-gw.psi.net (38.1.1.1) 153.382 ms 152.071 ms 147.602 ms 3 38.18.19.1 (38.18.19.1) 140.295 ms 141.904 ms 161.680 ms 4 rc8.nw.us.psi.net (38.1.43.8) 149.090 ms 155.449 ms 147.925 ms 5 * rc1.nw.us.psi.net (38.1.23.193) 139.237 ms !H * 6 * * * 7 * * * 8 * * * 9 * * * 10 * * * 11 * * * 12 * * * 13 * * * 14 * * * 15 * [bdobyns@dobyns bdobyns]$ Which fails miserably, the backbone routers don't even have a path to it. So I try from another box on a different network. This is to make sure that it's not a routing problem at my ISP. Which it sometimes is. [bdobyns@ns1 bdobyns]$ /usr/sbin/traceroute 157.55.85.212 traceroute to 157.55.85.212 (157.55.85.212), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 router.wwg.com (209.24.64.161) 3.232 ms 3.020 ms 3.952 ms 2 hs-2-0-0-96.a03.mtvwca01.us.ra.verio.net (209.24.0.161) 11.312 ms 14.128 ms 11.260 ms 3 * * * 4 * * * 5 * * hs-2-0-0-96.a03.mtvwca01.us.ra.verio.net (209.24.0.161) 12.440 ms !H 6 * * * 7 * * * 8 * * * 9 * * * 10 * * * 11 * * * 12 * * * 13 * * * 14 * * * Now I believe that it's unroutable. Finaly we go to http://www.arin.net/whois/index.html and use the whois tool with our IP address Microsoft Corporation (NETBLK-MICROSOFT-BBLK) One Microsoft Way Redmond, WA 98052 Netname: MICROSOFT-BBLK Netblock: 157.54.0.0 - 157.60.0.0 Coordinator: Parameshwaran, Krishnan (KP26-ARIN) KrishnaP@MICROSOFT.COM (206) 882-8080 Record last updated on 14-Oct-1998. Database last updated on 11-Feb-2000 05:36:03 EDT. Doh! should have done this first. Which is as good as it gets - it's somewhere inside Microsoft. Finally, to translate an URL to an IP address, go back to your *nix command prompt, and dig around. [bdobyns@dobyns bdobyns]$ nslookup Default Server: dobyns.com Address: 38.253.170.188 > set type=any > opt-inbroadcasts.net Server: dobyns.com Address: 38.253.170.188 Non-authoritative answer: opt-inbroadcasts.net nameserver = ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net opt-inbroadcasts.net internet address = 208.26.83.110 Authoritative answers can be found from: opt-inbroadcasts.net nameserver = ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net internet address = 63.160.130.115 > server ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net Default Server: ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net Address: 63.160.130.115 > opt-inbroadcasts.net Server: ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net Address: 63.160.130.115 opt-inbroadcasts.net nameserver = ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net opt-inbroadcasts.net origin = opt-inbroadcasts.net mail addr = root.opt-inbroadcasts.net serial = 2000021101 refresh = 300 (5M) retry = 300 (5M) expire = 300 (5M) minimum ttl = 300 (5M) opt-inbroadcasts.net preference = 20, mail exchanger = mail.opt-inbroadcasts.net opt-inbroadcasts.net internet address = 208.26.83.110 opt-inbroadcasts.net nameserver = ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net internet address = 63.160.130.115 > ls opt-inbroadcasts.net [ns.opt-inbroadcasts.net] $ORIGIN opt-inbroadcasts.net. @ 5M IN A 208.26.83.110 ns1 5M IN A 63.160.130.116 ns 5M IN A 63.160.130.115 > exit [bdobyns@dobyns bdobyns]$ -b ----- Barry A. Dobyns, barry@dobyns.com, http://barry.dobyns.com -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 11, 2000 10:35 AM Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? > >I have this URL and I'd like to find their netaddress n.n.n.n, how? > >******http://opt-inbroadcasts.net/remove/remove4.html >Apparently this is a spam gatherer as I got mail with this as the way >to get on their remove list. I suspect it's really a collect list. > >Also while looking around (with arp) I have a few address I don't know >and would like to translate that to a url or domain name. > >Allison > > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Feb 11 12:12:30 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. Message-ID: <007201bf74bb$8fb0d3a0$aa28d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 11, 2000 2:01 PM Subject: RE: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. >>US customs has decided > >As with all bureacracies, trying to make a blanket statement is difficult >and usually wrong... > >> that people/companies in the US are avoiding tariffs >>by "importing computer components through Canada" ... even if they are over >>30 years old. > >Do you have a particular source for this information? I'm not saying >that you're wrong, I'm saying that I want to learn more. If there's >some specific directive number that'll be particularly valuable. > My source 3 of my last few shipments have either been "rejected, held , or not arrived yet due to customs delays". I received an email from two others (one today) who said US customs felt they were trying to avoid US tarriffs and had to speak to customs for awhile to have the items released. I do not have a directive order other than I spoke to a broker friend of mine who said truckers are getting increasingly P'od with US customs because they are really slowing things up if they have any computer parts in the truck. >>I (and others I know) in Canada have had quite a few problems (just over the >>last two months) shipping computer components and documentation to the US. > >Oh, absolutely. I've had Canadian *government* customers with their >media turned back at the border because the US government couldn't make >head or tails of what it was. (These were 8" floppies and paper tapes, >BTW.) That particular governmental agency now flies the media down >in an employee's luggage. > Doesn't seem to be a problem with Canadian customs. Never had an item held up or rejected yet. >>I wanted every Canadian List member to know that if you indicate the >>contents of the package to contain computer parts/manuals then, no mater how >>old, these items could be held up in customs or rejected if you don't >>provide contact info to customs. (customs doesn't seem to have a clue that >>*old* computer parts fall outside their tariff issue). > >You're using the wrong language. If you claim to US customs that what >you're doing falls outside their scope, you're only going to convince >them that what you're dong is something that they should be concerned with. >This isn't an attitude unique to US customs, it'll happen with most >any customs service. > I don't say that *to* customs.. I am saying that about them. >In particular, to a customs officer "old" often means "potentially antique >and valuable". > >And I've had Canadian customs officials explain to me several times >that "zero value" is not possible. If it had no value, you wouldn't >be trying to ship it. > I never ship anything with a "zero" value, ever! In fact, the last shipment that was held up was valued at $400! And US customs felt the buyer was trying to avoid tarriffs by buying from Canadians. Morons. These particular DEC boards were manufactured in the states! >>Generally, make sure both phone numbers >>are on the parcel so US customs can contact the shipper/buyer immediately >>with their concerns. > >Absolutely. I despise customs brokers - and even more their charges - but >sometimes having someone there to expedite things is worth the bucks. > I have my own import/export number so I generally don't have to deal with them as long as my paperwork is correct. My problem is when I mail things to the US. Generally, when I send UPS I don't have a problem. US customs have slowed down shipments alot because some guy in BC tried to smuggle into the US a bunch of bomb material. BTW: Canadian Customs do believe old computer parts are *worthless*. I brought through two trucks filled to the top with old DEC stuff just last month. Value : $400. I opened the back of one... customs pointed a flashlight on an ASR-38.. said "God that's old".. and called the loads scrap. Over the past 15 years of imports I have never had any problem bringing in old minis... well, oher than Canadian customs wondering why someone would waste gas and time to cart the *junk* here. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From mrbelles at pittstate.edu Fri Feb 11 13:58:52 2000 From: mrbelles at pittstate.edu (mark belles) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: Dumpster stories! References: <38A3EA1F.39607B78@pittstate.edu> <200002111844.TAA22820@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <38A469FC.2784125A@pittstate.edu> Hey, sorry bout that? I thought that I had this puppy cranked down for ya'll. Won't happen again....lol well just goes to show...I don't know how to correctly format a composition. Hehe. Mark. ps...this is plain text...is it better for you guys this way? Hans Franke wrote: Or how to limit line length to LESS than 80 characters > > Hey, any usefull system limits text length to 72 caracters (or > better 71, since column 72 is reserved for the 'continue' asterix), > since you need column 1 to 8 for the key :) > > SCNR > Hans > > -- > Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ > Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ > Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Feb 11 15:10:40 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: Going totaly OT (was: Dumpster stories!) In-Reply-To: <20000210165917.A763@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000 Message-ID: <200002112011.VAA05156@mail2.siemens.de> > On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > > I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, > > but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that > > they hadn't been taught not to do such things. > I agree... My parents covered all this stuff -- they told us not to dig inside > snowbanks because a plow might come, we all wore seat belts way before there > was a law (bicycle helmets too), our parents strictly enforced what we could > and couldn't watch on TV so there was no need for V chips (I can't believe > they're making us pay for censorship devices now just because some absentee > parent religious freaks got upset), Please, what are V-Chips - I always associate the NEC CPU series with that. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Feb 11 14:48:47 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: Running a TK50 "on the bench" In-Reply-To: <000211140617.256013cc@trailing-edge.com>; from CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com on Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 02:06:17PM -0500 References: <000211140617.256013cc@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000211144847.T18249@mrbill.net> One quick question - anybody recommend a good place for DLT tape drive repair? I've got a drive here that I need to have looked at (it wont even pull the tape in out of the cartridge, now). fun way to de-spool most of a DLT IV tape from a drive: wrap the end of the broken tape around the rotating part of a power drill, pull the trigger. 8-) Bill On Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 02:06:17PM -0500, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > One question that's vitally important right here: is this an important > tape stuck in the drive, or a scratch tape? -- +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@pdp11.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | | http://www.sunhelp.org | http://www.pdp11.org | http://www.mrbill.net | +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Fri Feb 11 15:03:04 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) Message-ID: <018e01bf74d3$643cf060$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> I don't know the technical details, but here's my understanding: The V-chip is a device that will be installed by law in every VCR and TV manufactured in the U.S., which will allow parents to selectively block content that they find objectionable. So, for example, if I think it's o.k. for my child to see a little bit of romance and sex, I could set the "Sex" limit to 2 out of 5. If I wanted to block all violent programming, I could set the "Violence" limit to 0 out of 5. The device would detect the Sex and Violence levels of all incoming programming (I don't know who would rate the programs). If the program is over the limit that I've set, the device blocks the TV or VCR from showing the program. Of course, given the number of people who can't even figure out how to program their VCRs, I suspect that the kids will be better at changing the limits than their parents - I presume that the system includes passwords or something to prevent unauthorized changing of the limits. I believe that the V-chip concept was invented by a Canadian company, but I may be wrong on this. Regards, Mark Gregory -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 11, 2000 1:43 PM Subject: Going totaly OT (was: Dumpster stories!) >> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >> > I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, >> > but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that >> > they hadn't been taught not to do such things. > >> I agree... My parents covered all this stuff -- they told us not to dig inside >> snowbanks because a plow might come, we all wore seat belts way before there >> was a law (bicycle helmets too), our parents strictly enforced what we could >> and couldn't watch on TV so there was no need for V chips (I can't believe >> they're making us pay for censorship devices now just because some absentee >> parent religious freaks got upset), > >Please, what are V-Chips - I always associate the NEC CPU series with that. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 11 15:15:23 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: Going totaly OT (was: Dumpster stories!) Message-ID: <001001bf74d5$2f840320$0400c0a8@winbook> V-chips are mandatory features built into new TV sets that allow parents to disable viewing of certain programs. These were designed before it was demnostrated that an child over 6 years of age was able to defeat them before their parents figured out how to use them. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 11, 2000 1:28 PM Subject: Going totaly OT (was: Dumpster stories!) >> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: >> > I suppose people are going to think I'm a jerk for saying such a thing, >> > but IMNSHO the tragedy here isn't that the kids were killed, but that >> > they hadn't been taught not to do such things. > >> I agree... My parents covered all this stuff -- they told us not to dig inside >> snowbanks because a plow might come, we all wore seat belts way before there >> was a law (bicycle helmets too), our parents strictly enforced what we could >> and couldn't watch on TV so there was no need for V chips (I can't believe >> they're making us pay for censorship devices now just because some absentee >> parent religious freaks got upset), > >Please, what are V-Chips - I always associate the NEC CPU series with that. > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Feb 11 16:24:38 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) In-Reply-To: <018e01bf74d3$643cf060$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> Message-ID: <200002112125.WAA14087@mail2.siemens.de> > The V-chip is a device that will be installed by law in every VCR and TV > manufactured in the U.S., which will allow parents to selectively block > content that they find objectionable. So, for example, if I think it's o.k. > for my child to see a little bit of romance and sex, I could set the "Sex" > limit to 2 out of 5. If I wanted to block all violent programming, I could > set the "Violence" limit to 0 out of 5. The device would detect the Sex and > Violence levels of all incoming programming (I don't know who would rate > the programs). If the program is over the limit that I've set, the device > blocks the TV or VCR from showing the program. Let me get this straight - there is some software to be implemented on TVs and VCRs to disable them on a contend related base ? Just assuming that there will be some kind of add on signal (at this point I'd like to get some technical information) suplying the level(s) of whatever (what classes are named ?), who is responsible to judge the content ? Also, are the TV stations also forced to supply the coding all the time ? Maybe that's part of the US economic 'Wirtschaftswunder' - now TV stations need not only on guy to handle the clap-o-mat, but a second to rate the content all the time (asuming its not a preset thing like: Cartoon Network = Violence 5, Sex 0 etc.). BTW: I know there is violence on US-TV - but sex ? Small content providers like local chanels may have some dificulties, either to supply it at all, or supply it on a constant level - just think about the 'open' chanels in big cities ... If the judgement is done by the producer, someone of a 'nude acceping' show may have a different feeling about the 'sex rating' then the next guy who airs some TV church stuff. > Of course, given the number of people who can't even figure out how to > program their VCRs, I suspect that the kids will be better at changing the > limits than their parents - I presume that the system includes passwords or > something to prevent unauthorized changing of the limits. You mean VCRs don't have to blink all the time ? Well, the thing is doomed from either side. Gruss H. P.S.: is there any _reliable_ source for information on the web ? -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Feb 11 15:29:03 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. In-Reply-To: <005901bf74b3$94e58120$aa28d1d8@default> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000211132903.00892d20@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: For your info, I'm in Canada, and shipped about 75 lbs of old pdp-11 boards to the US this week without any problems. I indicated "Obsolete Computer Parts" on the customs form. Looks like others may be having trouble, but none here on the west coast so far. Fingers crossed, Kevin At 12:15 PM 11/02/00 -0500, you wrote: >US customs has decided that people/companies in the US are avoiding tariffs >by "importing computer components through Canada" ... even if they are over >30 years old. > >I (and others I know) in Canada have had quite a few problems (just over the >last two months) shipping computer components and documentation to the US. > >My last eBay buyer spent quite a bit of time trying to convince US customs >they were not trying to avoid tariffs... [these materials were well over 25 >years old] > >I wanted every Canadian List member to know that if you indicate the >contents of the package to contain computer parts/manuals then, no mater how >old, these items could be held up in customs or rejected if you don't >provide contact info to customs. (customs doesn't seem to have a clue that >*old* computer parts fall outside their tariff issue). > >Since computer parts are "electronic boards/parts" and manuals/documentation >can fall under "books" I recommend describing items as such. Shipping whole >mini computers are another issue. Generally, make sure both phone numbers >are on the parcel so US customs can contact the shipper/buyer immediately >with their concerns. > >Good luck! > > >john > > >PDP-8 and other rare mini computers > >http://www.pdp8.com > > > > > ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Feb 11 15:32:55 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. In-Reply-To: <007201bf74bb$8fb0d3a0$aa28d1d8@default> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000211133255.008dd340@mail.sfu.ca> At 01:12 PM 11/02/00 -0500, you wrote: >BTW: Canadian Customs do believe old computer parts are *worthless*. I >brought through two trucks filled to the top with old DEC stuff just last >month. Value : $400. I opened the back of one... customs pointed a >flashlight on an ASR-38.. said "God that's old".. and called the loads >scrap. Over the past 15 years of imports I have never had any problem >bringing in old minis... well, oher than Canadian customs wondering why >someone would waste gas and time to cart the *junk* here. My experience as well, bringing old radios, computer parts, and RX01s (dual 8" floppy drives) into Canada. No commercial value, no problem. Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Feb 11 15:40:42 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. References: <000211135752.256013cc@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <38A481DA.219C9035@bigfoot.com> The last few times I sent computer/related to Canada I marked the parcels "obsolete computer or printer parts-gift" and the value as a couple dollars. I normally send them UPS rather than USPS as I think much of the problem is with our glorious postal service inspectors as well. As for things I recieve I have them marked the same and the word "gift" specified on all paperwork to include openly on the label. "Obsolete" seems to mean a different thing to them as opposed to "old" What was the purpose of NAFTA anyway? Things are tighter and a bigger pain now than they were before NAFTA, especially to Canada. Mexico doesn't seem to be very much trouble lately. CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >US customs has decided > > As with all bureacracies, trying to make a blanket statement is difficult > and usually wrong... From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Fri Feb 11 15:41:27 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000211132903.00892d20@mail.sfu.ca> from Kevin McQuiggin at "Feb 11, 2000 01:29:03 pm" Message-ID: <20000211214136Z433764-14195+177@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Hi Gang: > > For your info, I'm in Canada, and shipped about 75 lbs of old pdp-11 boards > to the US this week without any problems. I indicated "Obsolete Computer > Parts" on the customs form. > > Looks like others may be having trouble, but none here on the west coast so > far. > I was going to suggest the use of "obsolete", but I recall some discussion about this term in the past :-). Many years ago a friendly customs agent explained the process to me. Most customs organizations work on a keyword basis (not the term used by the customs agent). If you find the right keyword, you don't have any problems. If you use the word "old" you are likely to have problems, because that implies valuable. If you use the word "obsolete", it implies of little value, and it will go through. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Feb 11 15:45:54 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: Going totaly OT (was: Dumpster stories!) In-Reply-To: <200002112011.VAA05156@mail2.siemens.de> References: <20000210165917.A763@dbit.dbit.com> <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000211164301.00b5f230@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:11 PM 2/11/00 +0001, Hans Franke said something like: >> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:35:26PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: -- snip -- >> and couldn't watch on TV so there was no need for V chips (I can't believe >> they're making us pay for censorship devices now just because some absentee >> parent religious freaks got upset), > >Please, what are V-Chips - I always associate the NEC CPU series with that. Hoo boy, you'd have to ask . . . :-) That is a hot button among some folks over here. Anybody more articulate than me explain to the non-US folks this device used to censor certain TV programming from children? -Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Fri Feb 11 16:08:14 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) Message-ID: <01ad01bf74dc$7e56ad20$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> Here's a resource - not much technical detail, but explains how the system works better than I did: http://www.vchipeducation.org/index.html This gives some of the history of the idea: http://www.primenet.com/~acacia/soundview/Bio.html Apparently, the V-chips are only installed in Televisions, not VCRs, and some content (e.g. news, pay-per-view or cablesystem movies) is not necessarily rated. And the system uses the "Closed Captioning" signal to convey the program rating information. Cheers, Mark. -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 11, 2000 2:48 PM Subject: Re: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) >> The V-chip is a device that will be installed by law in every VCR and TV >> manufactured in the U.S., which will allow parents to selectively block >> content that they find objectionable. So, for example, if I think it's o.k. >> for my child to see a little bit of romance and sex, I could set the "Sex" >> limit to 2 out of 5. If I wanted to block all violent programming, I could >> set the "Violence" limit to 0 out of 5. The device would detect the Sex and >> Violence levels of all incoming programming (I don't know who would rate >> the programs). If the program is over the limit that I've set, the device >> blocks the TV or VCR from showing the program. > >Let me get this straight - there is some software to be implemented >on TVs and VCRs to disable them on a contend related base ? Just >assuming that there will be some kind of add on signal (at this point >I'd like to get some technical information) suplying the level(s) >of whatever (what classes are named ?), who is responsible to >judge the content ? > >Also, are the TV stations also forced to supply the coding all the time ? >Maybe that's part of the US economic 'Wirtschaftswunder' - now TV stations >need not only on guy to handle the clap-o-mat, but a second to rate >the content all the time (asuming its not a preset thing like: Cartoon >Network = Violence 5, Sex 0 etc.). > >BTW: I know there is violence on US-TV - but sex ? > >Small content providers like local chanels may have some dificulties, >either to supply it at all, or supply it on a constant level - just >think about the 'open' chanels in big cities ... If the judgement is >done by the producer, someone of a 'nude acceping' show may have a >different feeling about the 'sex rating' then the next guy who airs >some TV church stuff. > >> Of course, given the number of people who can't even figure out how to >> program their VCRs, I suspect that the kids will be better at changing the >> limits than their parents - I presume that the system includes passwords or >> something to prevent unauthorized changing of the limits. > >You mean VCRs don't have to blink all the time ? > >Well, the thing is doomed from either side. > >Gruss >H. > >P.S.: is there any _reliable_ source for information on the web ? > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Feb 11 16:37:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. In-Reply-To: <38A481DA.219C9035@bigfoot.com> References: <000211135752.256013cc@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >The last few times I sent computer/related to Canada I marked the parcels >"obsolete computer or printer parts-gift" and the value as a couple dollars. I >normally send them UPS rather than USPS as I think much of the problem is with UPS is notorious for charging abitrary and high broker fees, so ALL of my Canadian customs demand using another carrier, preferably USPS. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Feb 11 17:13:27 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) In-Reply-To: <200002112125.WAA14087@mail2.siemens.de>; from Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de on Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 10:25:38PM +0000 References: <018e01bf74d3$643cf060$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> <200002112125.WAA14087@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <20000211181327.A3904@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 10:25:38PM +0000, Hans Franke wrote: > Let me get this straight - there is some software to be implemented > on TVs and VCRs to disable them on a contend related base ? Right. But remember, we're still the Land of the Free, even though most European countries give their citizens a lot more freedom. See, any time the majority (or better yet, a well-funded and vocal minority) wants something censored, it's not censorship -- the founding fathers were only trying to protect our rights to say stuff that everyone agrees with, they hate people with unpopular tastes or opinions. > Just > assuming that there will be some kind of add on signal (at this point > I'd like to get some technical information) suplying the level(s) > of whatever (what classes are named ?), who is responsible to > judge the content ? There, you've hit the biggest problem. My understanding is that it's just a single scale -- from "not offensive" to "very offensive", according to someone, somewhere. Since the government likes to see everything in terms of strict threshholds (55 MPH = no problem, 56+ MPH = OK to lay down tack strips and cause a fatal crash), they've convinced themselves that everyone is offended by the same stuff. So some invisible authority gets to decide what's offensive and what isn't and everything comes prepackaged (no I don't know what the protocol is for labeling the show but I assume it's some between-visible-scan-lines thing like closed captioning is), so you're just supposed to set your TV for whatever age your kids are (they're all the same age, right?) and leave it at that. > Also, are the TV stations also forced to supply the coding all the time ? I think it's supposed to be done per show. Like the current TV rating system, where they put up a logo at the beginning of each show saying what its rating is. Ridiculous... If I owned a TV network, I'd just set everything to "most offensive" and forget about it. > BTW: I know there is violence on US-TV - but sex ? There's no *real* sex on US TV, but the bible thumpers are offended by even the hint of it. They think that nudity is inherently wrong, and I just *love* the illogic that you can say anything you want but you can't use certain words to say it. Say the exact same thing another way and you're OK though. Anyway this is all just another attempt to idiot-proof the world. Instead of just sitting down with their kids at a young age and explaining what sex is and why it should be taken seriously, the lazy absentee parents think the right thing is for their kids to be prevented at all costs from even looking down in the bath tub, so that they have no idea what's really going on, and it all comes as a total shock to them when they turn 18. People are unbelievably repressed in this country though. I thought my parents did a pretty good job of explaining everything, but they left some important stuff out, like the fact that sex is fun! What a mind-bender, hearing about neighbors etc. that had gotten pregnant "by accident", I couldn't possibly imagine how people would pull off such a complicated disgusting procedure without meaning to. Makes a whole lot more sense now! > If the judgement is > done by the producer, someone of a 'nude acceping' show may have a > different feeling about the 'sex rating' then the next guy who airs > some TV church stuff. Exactly! Personally, I'm seriously, DEEPLY offended by anything to do with organized religion, yet as far as the government is concerned that stuff is all strictly G-rated. So I'll never convince my TV to automatically skip those shows. I have no problem with nudity though, and if I had kids I'd want them to see plenty of it too, so that the novelty would wear off and they wouldn't go into total cranial shutdown the way most Americans do when they see it (since we're strongly conditioned to think that the only time anyone shows any skin is when they're about to have sex with you, so we act like idiots when we see people naked in other contexts). But that's the *main* thing the government wants to stop us from seeing. Anyway, I'm not saying the government is trying to gradually eat away at our rights and subtly turn the USA into a totalitarian state so slowly that no one even notices. But if they WERE trying to do that, they'd go about it exactly this way! Well anyway, I was pissed off the *last* time the gov't forced everyone to pay for an unneeded feature in their TVs, which was closed captioning, but now I use it all the time! It's really handy when the actors are mumbling, or when they're talking in funny voices for no apparent reason (but the caption explains that they're quoting from a 1930s movie I never saw), or when my wife falls asleep but I want to keep watching. Yech, sorry about all this OT stuff, this has gotten pretty far from finding goodies in dumpsters. I once hauled an IBM 029 keypunch out of a dumpster, does that make up for it? It was at the company I worked for so there was no problem with permission, the guys who tossed it in really relished the experience (I guess they hadn't been big fans of that keypunch back when it was the company's only input device) so they were telling everyone, I flipped out of course but the same guys were nice enough to help me haul the thing out again. I've also had pretty good luck with the friendly neighborhood engineering school, especially because they're too cheap to get dumpsters for every building so a lot of the time stuff sits on loading docks for weeks before it gets hauled off, so you can just take it away (as long as you're sure it's scrap). I got a mostly-complete ASR33 and another terminal that way a couple of years ago, and a few other things (found a VK100 GIGI minus the PSU sitting by the curb with some other trash, outside RPI's linear accelerator a few years back). No need to get waist deep in transformer oil or anything yucky like that... John Wilson D Bit -------------- P.S. guess I spoke too soon about the drought of idiotic winter accidents being reported on our local TV news as "tragedies", apparently just last night some bozo in Utica went snowmobiling in the dark and ate a tree at high speed. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Feb 11 17:14:23 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000211132903.00892d20@mail.sfu.ca> from Kevin McQuiggin at "Feb 11, 2000 01:29:03 pm" Message-ID: <200002112314.RAA11355@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > Hi Gang: > > For your info, I'm in Canada, and shipped about 75 lbs of old pdp-11 boards > to the US this week without any problems. I indicated "Obsolete Computer > Parts" on the customs form. > > Looks like others may be having trouble, but none here on the west coast so > far. > > Fingers crossed, > > Kevin > > ========================================================== > Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department > E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 > Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca > One would think that mentioning the Vancouver Police Dept on the package might tend to give it a better then normal chance. -Lawrence LeMay From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 11 17:25:03 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) In-Reply-To: Re: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) (John Wilson) References: <018e01bf74d3$643cf060$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> <200002112125.WAA14087@mail2.siemens.de> <20000211181327.A3904@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <14500.39503.484124.582381@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 11, John Wilson wrote: > Anyway this is all just another attempt to idiot-proof the world. Instead of > just sitting down with their kids at a young age and explaining what sex > is and why it should be taken seriously, the lazy absentee parents think > the right thing is for their kids to be prevented at all costs from even > looking down in the bath tub, so that they have no idea what's really going > on, and it all comes as a total shock to them when they turn 18. Exactly. This government is very big on "protecting the stupid". Personally, I see it as "fighting Darwin"...natural selection can do the right thing if left to its own devices. Now, I don't have kids, so I'll not pretend to be an authority on the subject...but it seems logical to me that keeping them informed will go a lot farther than censoring the world for them. How many people here *really* learned about the "birds & bees" from their parents? Wow, this IS off-topic! -Dave McGuire From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Feb 11 16:50:37 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) In-Reply-To: <20000211181327.A3904@dbit.dbit.com> (message from John Wilson on Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:13:27 -0500) References: <018e01bf74d3$643cf060$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> <200002112125.WAA14087@mail2.siemens.de> <20000211181327.A3904@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000211225037.8502.qmail@brouhaha.com> John Wilson wrote about the "V Chip": > (no I don't know what the protocol is for labeling the show but I assume > it's some between-visible-scan-lines thing like closed captioning is), Yes. In fact, it uses line 21 just like captioning, but is coded as "enhanced data services" as per EIA 608. I think there's a newer standard that gives the specific V-chip details. I've been thinking about taking my closed caption decoder project, which was formerly used in a hack to automatically mute the audio any time O.J. was mentioned (the O.J. Mute-o-Matic, tm), and turn it into a device to automatically find programming with high violence or "mature audience" ratings. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 11 17:38:56 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) Message-ID: <003101bf74e9$2a8626a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, here in the Land of the Free, there's too much exercise of freedome not guaranteed in any document anywhere, and not tolerated in countries in Europe. It would be so much simpler if there were only one punishment for all violations of the law, as so many infractions are worthy of that ultimate punishment, DEATH. The only thing that seems to vary is WHOSE death. If every offense were met with immediate extermination, perhaps followed by a posthumous apology, a lot of people would behave differently, and nobody would park in my reserved space. In civilized countries, and NOT the U.S, it's common for citizens to turn in their neighbors for viloating the law simply because they observe a law being broken, and not because it has effect on their lives. The fact is that HERE, in the U.S. a person picking up the phone and notifying the police that there's a minor crime in progress within his view is considered, even by the police, worse than the offender. In the U.S. the observable lack of civilization is evidenced in the inability of people to inhabit a limited space as the Europeans have known for centuries to do. For us Americans, it's growing pains. Since there's no more land to inhabit, we're having to acquire some traits of civilized societies because we're having to live together with more and more strangers, often quite different form ourselves, racially, culturally, linguistically, etc. Over time we're going to have to move in the direction of the European model, which we know works, and rely more on common observance of law as opposed to trying to circumvent it. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Wilson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 11, 2000 4:18 PM Subject: Re: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) >On Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 10:25:38PM +0000, Hans Franke wrote: >> Let me get this straight - there is some software to be implemented >> on TVs and VCRs to disable them on a contend related base ? > >Right. But remember, we're still the Land of the Free, even though most >European countries give their citizens a lot more freedom. See, any time >the majority (or better yet, a well-funded and vocal minority) wants something >censored, it's not censorship -- the founding fathers were only trying to >protect our rights to say stuff that everyone agrees with, they hate >people with unpopular tastes or opinions. > >> Just >> assuming that there will be some kind of add on signal (at this point >> I'd like to get some technical information) suplying the level(s) >> of whatever (what classes are named ?), who is responsible to >> judge the content ? > >There, you've hit the biggest problem. My understanding is that it's just >a single scale -- from "not offensive" to "very offensive", according to >someone, somewhere. Since the government likes to see everything in terms >of strict threshholds (55 MPH = no problem, 56+ MPH = OK to lay down tack >strips and cause a fatal crash), they've convinced themselves that everyone >is offended by the same stuff. So some invisible authority gets to decide >what's offensive and what isn't and everything comes prepackaged (no I >don't know what the protocol is for labeling the show but I assume it's some >between-visible-scan-lines thing like closed captioning is), so you're just >supposed to set your TV for whatever age your kids are (they're all the same >age, right?) and leave it at that. > >> Also, are the TV stations also forced to supply the coding all the time ? > >I think it's supposed to be done per show. Like the current TV rating system, >where they put up a logo at the beginning of each show saying what its rating >is. Ridiculous... If I owned a TV network, I'd just set everything to "most >offensive" and forget about it. > >> BTW: I know there is violence on US-TV - but sex ? > >There's no *real* sex on US TV, but the bible thumpers are offended by even >the hint of it. They think that nudity is inherently wrong, and I just >*love* the illogic that you can say anything you want but you can't use >certain words to say it. Say the exact same thing another way and you're >OK though. > >Anyway this is all just another attempt to idiot-proof the world. Instead of >just sitting down with their kids at a young age and explaining what sex >is and why it should be taken seriously, the lazy absentee parents think >the right thing is for their kids to be prevented at all costs from even >looking down in the bath tub, so that they have no idea what's really going >on, and it all comes as a total shock to them when they turn 18. > >People are unbelievably repressed in this country though. I thought my parents >did a pretty good job of explaining everything, but they left some important >stuff out, like the fact that sex is fun! What a mind-bender, hearing about >neighbors etc. that had gotten pregnant "by accident", I couldn't possibly >imagine how people would pull off such a complicated disgusting procedure >without meaning to. Makes a whole lot more sense now! > >> If the judgement is >> done by the producer, someone of a 'nude acceping' show may have a >> different feeling about the 'sex rating' then the next guy who airs >> some TV church stuff. > >Exactly! Personally, I'm seriously, DEEPLY offended by anything to do with >organized religion, yet as far as the government is concerned that stuff >is all strictly G-rated. So I'll never convince my TV to automatically >skip those shows. I have no problem with nudity though, and if I had kids >I'd want them to see plenty of it too, so that the novelty would wear off >and they wouldn't go into total cranial shutdown the way most Americans do >when they see it (since we're strongly conditioned to think that the only >time anyone shows any skin is when they're about to have sex with you, so >we act like idiots when we see people naked in other contexts). But that's >the *main* thing the government wants to stop us from seeing. > >Anyway, I'm not saying the government is trying to gradually eat away at our >rights and subtly turn the USA into a totalitarian state so slowly that no >one even notices. But if they WERE trying to do that, they'd go about it >exactly this way! > >Well anyway, I was pissed off the *last* time the gov't forced everyone to >pay for an unneeded feature in their TVs, which was closed captioning, but >now I use it all the time! It's really handy when the actors are mumbling, >or when they're talking in funny voices for no apparent reason (but the >caption explains that they're quoting from a 1930s movie I never saw), or >when my wife falls asleep but I want to keep watching. > >Yech, sorry about all this OT stuff, this has gotten pretty far from finding >goodies in dumpsters. I once hauled an IBM 029 keypunch out of a dumpster, >does that make up for it? It was at the company I worked for so there was >no problem with permission, the guys who tossed it in really relished the >experience (I guess they hadn't been big fans of that keypunch back when it >was the company's only input device) so they were telling everyone, I flipped >out of course but the same guys were nice enough to help me haul the thing out >again. > >I've also had pretty good luck with the friendly neighborhood engineering >school, especially because they're too cheap to get dumpsters for every >building so a lot of the time stuff sits on loading docks for weeks before >it gets hauled off, so you can just take it away (as long as you're sure >it's scrap). I got a mostly-complete ASR33 and another terminal that way a >couple of years ago, and a few other things (found a VK100 GIGI minus the PSU >sitting by the curb with some other trash, outside RPI's linear accelerator >a few years back). No need to get waist deep in transformer oil or anything >yucky like that... > >John Wilson >D Bit >-------------- >P.S. guess I spoke too soon about the drought of idiotic winter accidents >being reported on our local TV news as "tragedies", apparently just last night >some bozo in Utica went snowmobiling in the dark and ate a tree at high speed. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 19:00:42 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. Message-ID: <20000212010042.4348.qmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Ford wrote: > >The last few times I sent computer/related to Canada I marked the parcels > >"obsolete computer or printer parts-gift" and the value as a couple dollars. > >I normally send them UPS rather than USPS as I think much of the problem is > >with... > > UPS is notorious for charging abitrary and high broker fees, so ALL of my > Canadian customs demand using another carrier, preferably USPS. My first experience with this was a $120 item I bought for my Amiga from a small company in Vancouver. I get this call from so-and-so brokers who want $85 to process my paperwork. I was outraged. I told them in no uncertain terms that they would *never* extort that kind of blood money from me for their "services" and to send the shipment back. I did receive my hardware a couple of weeks later by post with no duty and no problems. My employer at the time used to ship magtapes to Canadian customers via UPS with the proper customs paperwork attached. We never had any complaints, but we knew how to fill out the forms properly. The moral of the story is to *never* send items across the border UPS without any customs paperwork. The recipient will be saddled with the consequences. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Feb 11 20:10:49 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: US customs holding/rejecting computer material. In-Reply-To: <200002112314.RAA11355@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Feb 11, 2000 05:14:23 PM Message-ID: <200002120210.SAA10471@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi: > One would think that mentioning the Vancouver Police Dept on the > package might tend to give it a better then normal chance. Those days are definitely gone. Maybe 20 years ago, but no chance these days. Society is evolving and I'm personally happier with a fairer arrangement where all folks are demonstrably treated the same. I send all this stuff personally (i.e. not via official channels) and would _never_ consider trying for any sort of advantage due to my current line of work! Unfortunately television and the movie industry insist on portraying boatanchor characters that are as far from current policing as vacuum tube computers are from modern VLSI machines. Book-'em Dano, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Feb 11 20:16:59 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Feb 11, 2000 01:06:09 PM Message-ID: <200002120216.SAA11859@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Allison: Use nslookup. "nslookup (IP address)". No parentheses. nslookup is a Unix utility, run it at the shell prompt. There will likely be versions available for other systems as well. Alternatively, visit the NIC (www.internic.net) and you can run the IP address through their database there. Kevin > > > I have this URL and I'd like to find their netaddress n.n.n.n, how? > > ******http://opt-inbroadcasts.net/remove/remove4.html > Apparently this is a spam gatherer as I got mail with this as the way > to get on their remove list. I suspect it's really a collect list. > > Also while looking around (with arp) I have a few address I don't know > and would like to translate that to a url or domain name. > > Allison > > > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Feb 11 20:44:49 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? Message-ID: <200002120244.VAA01024@world.std.com> Thanks everyone. I'm getting spammed and it's apparently from the opt-in thing that I'd never opt-into! Any solid suggestion how to shut this down. I firmly believe the "remove" in these is fake or worse address validation. I wonder if the whole remove this is bogus. Allison For example... *************************************************************************** You received this copy as a subscriber to our opt-in email list. If you no longer wish to receive solicitations simply unsubscribe by clicking here: http://www.postmasternetwork.net/remove Unsubscribe ............................................................................ That's right. This week more.com is offering a 6-pack of Ultra Slim Fast for $1 and our ever-popular $1 mystery item. **************************************************************************** From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Feb 11 21:02:53 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? In-Reply-To: <200002120244.VAA01024@world.std.com> Message-ID: In my experience, the best course of action is simply to filter it out. Responses do indeed verify that your address is valid; I once made the mistake of doing just that, and it took about a week before I was getting 10x the amount of spam I had been previously. The best proactive method of dealing with it is to report the forward the message, with all the headers, to either spam@originatingdomain.com or abuse@originatingdomain.com. I have to admit that I'm usually too lazy to do this; the spam filters on the company's mail server do a good enough job that I might get 2-3 spam messages per day at the most (as compared to 10-15 on my old earthlink account). Cheers, Aaron On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Allison J Parent wrote: > > Thanks everyone. > > I'm getting spammed and it's apparently from the opt-in thing that I'd > never opt-into! > > Any solid suggestion how to shut this down. I firmly believe the "remove" > in these is fake or worse address validation. I wonder if the whole > remove this is bogus. > > Allison > > For example... > *************************************************************************** > You received this copy as a subscriber to our opt-in email list. > If you no longer wish to receive solicitations simply unsubscribe by > clicking here: http://www.postmasternetwork.net/remove > Unsubscribe > ............................................................................ > > That's right. > > This week more.com is offering a 6-pack of Ultra Slim Fast for $1 and > our ever-popular $1 mystery item. > > **************************************************************************** > From whdawson at mlynk.com Fri Feb 11 21:15:41 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: Inferno IF/65 Development System II for 65XX microprocessors Message-ID: <001401bf7507$717cfa20$b0e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Hello group, Here I am again, looking for information on something that, more than likely, not a single person on this list will have any information whatsoever. At least this item isn't on eBay. The last thing on eBay that I asked for information on somehow managed to attract all sorts of interest and bids after I posted questions looking for some information on it (I had the opening and only bid for quite some time). My toes still hurt from that one. I should have known, since it had the letters D-E-C on it. BTW, who is pdp.org? OK, now that has been expressed, what I have here is an Infotron IF/65 Development System II. It appears to connect via RS-232 to a dumb terminal for its output of such things as address and data, and perhaps input of some parameters such as uP clock rate; baud rate is selectable from a thumbwheel. This system also appears to have the capability of single stepping the program contained in the device in the ZIF. It has a 28 pin ZIF socket for the targets EPROM/PROM/ROM. There is a standard ribbon cable that connects to a pod, and the pod has a braided ribbon cable that terminates at a 40 pin dip header, most likely to attach to the target in place of the uP. Trap conditions are selectable via four 0 to F thumbwheels, and conditions to be triggered on can be selected as memory data read, memory data written, and/or op-code. Any information would be greatly appreciated, a source of a manual or instructions for use would be fantastic. For those in this group that maybe can help and would like a photo sent as an email attachment, please post your request to the group, on thread, and I'll email the photo off-list. Or just go to http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/Pics/infotron.gif Which brings up another point. If all this verbiage is being collected for posterity, and a picture is worth a thousand words, would it be a good idea to have a photo archive indexed by thread also? I do realize that uncompressed pictures can take up a lot of disk space, and a size limit would have to be implemented. However, as I see the confusion and misunderstanding some of the time among ourselves, a picture would aid tremendously in avoiding this situation. Just imagine how much it will help the denizens of the future in coping with the many objects discussed herein. I understand there are many of you who are limited to text reception and transmittal, but what about the rest of us? With all the recent discussion about the time it takes to read and reply to this email if it is not properly formatted, etc. being such an issue when the list came back up (BTW, thanks Jay), I'm surprised no one brought up all the time it takes to describe things when a simple picture would suffice. Thanks, Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Feb 11 21:39:12 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: Going totaly OT (was: Dumpster stories!) References: <20000210165917.A763@dbit.dbit.com> <20000210183526.32168.qmail@brouhaha.com> <4.1.20000211164301.00b5f230@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <00c901bf750a$c21a75e0$d481a7ca@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christian Fandt" To: Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 8:15 AM Subject: Re: Going totaly OT (was: Dumpster stories!) > Upon the date 09:11 PM 2/11/00 +0001, Hans Franke said something like: > Anybody more articulate than me explain to the non-US folks this device > used to censor certain TV programming from children? We have them here too. But we call them parents. :^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College. geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From whdawson at mlynk.com Fri Feb 11 21:40:30 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: FW: Infotron IF/65 Development System II for 65XX microprocessors Message-ID: <001c01bf750a$e8a03740$b0e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Sorry about the title on the previous post. Darn spell checker gets a little carried away sometimes. How it got Inferno from Infotron is something only Gates and Co. can answer. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Dawson [mailto:whdawson@mlynk.com] Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 10:16 PM To: Classiccmp@Classiccmp. Org Subject: Inferno IF/65 Development System II for 65XX microprocessors Hello group, Here I am again, looking for information on something that, more than likely, not a single person on this list will have any information whatsoever. At least this item isn't on eBay. The last thing on eBay that I asked for information on somehow managed to attract all sorts of interest and bids after I posted questions looking for some information on it (I had the opening and only bid for quite some time). My toes still hurt from that one. I should have known, since it had the letters D-E-C on it. BTW, who is pdp.org? OK, now that has been expressed, what I have here is an Infotron IF/65 Development System II. It appears to connect via RS-232 to a dumb terminal for its output of such things as address and data, and perhaps input of some parameters such as uP clock rate; baud rate is selectable from a thumbwheel. This system also appears to have the capability of single stepping the program contained in the device in the ZIF. It has a 28 pin ZIF socket for the targets EPROM/PROM/ROM. There is a standard ribbon cable that connects to a pod, and the pod has a braided ribbon cable that terminates at a 40 pin dip header, most likely to attach to the target in place of the uP. Trap conditions are selectable via four 0 to F thumbwheels, and conditions to be triggered on can be selected as memory data read, memory data written, and/or op-code. Any information would be greatly appreciated, a source of a manual or instructions for use would be fantastic. For those in this group that maybe can help and would like a photo sent as an email attachment, please post your request to the group, on thread, and I'll email the photo off-list. Or just go to http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/Pics/infotron.gif Which brings up another point. If all this verbiage is being collected for posterity, and a picture is worth a thousand words, would it be a good idea to have a photo archive indexed by thread also? I do realize that uncompressed pictures can take up a lot of disk space, and a size limit would have to be implemented. However, as I see the confusion and misunderstanding some of the time among ourselves, a picture would aid tremendously in avoiding this situation. Just imagine how much it will help the denizens of the future in coping with the many objects discussed herein. I understand there are many of you who are limited to text reception and transmittal, but what about the rest of us? With all the recent discussion about the time it takes to read and reply to this email if it is not properly formatted, etc. being such an issue when the list came back up (BTW, thanks Jay), I'm surprised no one brought up all the time it takes to describe things when a simple picture would suffice. Thanks, Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri Feb 11 22:18:30 2000 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: OT Re: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is an excellent resource in abuse.net http://www.abuse.net I believe it is run by the acting moderator of comp.dcom.telecom A brief excerpt from its FAQ HOW DOES ABUSE.NET WORK ? Once you've registered, when you send a message to an address at abuse.net, the system here automatically re-mails your message to the best reporting address(es) we know for the domain you want to send to. If, say, you wanted to send mail to example.com, the address would be example.com@abuse.net. It's up to you to figure out what the appropriate domain is. See http://spam.abuse.net/others/sites.html for some links to mail analysis advice. For many domains the contact address is postmaster@, for some it's abuse@, for some it's something else. Some particularly unpleasant domains ignore all their mail; when we're aware of that we use the address for their next-level-up provider. * Send a copy of the entire abusive message, including all of the header lines, particularly the "Received:" lines. (Many mail programs including Pine and Eudora don't show or send all the headers unless you specifically tell them to.) If the message is very long, you can cut off the message in the middle, so long as you're sure you're sending all the headers. * Be polite and to the point. * Don't make any threats unless you intend to carry them out. In particular, don't threaten people under the junk fax law (47 USC 227) unless you actually plan to take them to small claims court; even responsible ISPs are really tired of this vacuous threat. On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > In my experience, the best course of action is simply to filter it out. > Responses do indeed verify that your address is valid; I once made the > mistake of doing just that, and it took about a week before I was getting > 10x the amount of spam I had been previously. > > The best proactive method of dealing with it is to report the forward the > message, with all the headers, to either spam@originatingdomain.com or > abuse@originatingdomain.com. I have to admit that I'm usually too lazy to > do this; the spam filters on the company's mail server do a good enough > job that I might get 2-3 spam messages per day at the most (as compared to > 10-15 on my old earthlink account). > > Cheers, > > Aaron > > On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > > > Thanks everyone. > > > > I'm getting spammed and it's apparently from the opt-in thing that I'd > > never opt-into! > > > > Any solid suggestion how to shut this down. I firmly believe the "remove" > > in these is fake or worse address validation. I wonder if the whole > > remove this is bogus. > > > > Allison From djenner at halcyon.com Fri Feb 11 22:36:28 2000 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? References: <200002120244.VAA01024@world.std.com> Message-ID: <38A4E34C.24FEC689@halcyon.com> It's been mentioned before, but try http://www.spamcop.net. If you report the SPAM, a appropriate administrator can shut down the violator. Using it requires a browser, however, and every time I suggest something that benefits browser users, the remarks fly that everyone in this group uses punch cards, a collator, and a keypunch to read/write this group! So your mileage may vary. Dave Allison J Parent wrote: > > Thanks everyone. > > I'm getting spammed and it's apparently from the opt-in thing that I'd > never opt-into! > > Any solid suggestion how to shut this down. I firmly believe the "remove" > in these is fake or worse address validation. I wonder if the whole > remove this is bogus. > > Allison > > For example... > *************************************************************************** > You received this copy as a subscriber to our opt-in email list. > If you no longer wish to receive solicitations simply unsubscribe by > clicking here: http://www.postmasternetwork.net/remove > Unsubscribe > ............................................................................ > > That's right. > > This week more.com is offering a 6-pack of Ultra Slim Fast for $1 and > our ever-popular $1 mystery item. > > **************************************************************************** From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Feb 11 22:50:56 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:40 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) In-Reply-To: <20000211225037.8502.qmail@brouhaha.com>; from eric@brouhaha.com on Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 10:50:37PM -0000 References: <018e01bf74d3$643cf060$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> <200002112125.WAA14087@mail2.siemens.de> <20000211181327.A3904@dbit.dbit.com> <20000211225037.8502.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20000211235056.A4835@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 10:50:37PM -0000, Eric Smith wrote: > I've been thinking about taking my closed caption decoder project, which > was formerly used in a hack to automatically mute the audio any time > O.J. was mentioned (the O.J. Mute-o-Matic, tm), and turn it into a device > to automatically find programming with high violence or "mature audience" > ratings. I can't *believe* what a great idea that is!!!! I'll sure buy one! Y'know, I'll bet I'm not the only one who'd be willing to pay substantially extra for a TV (or cable/satellite converter box) that had this scan feature built in. It would serve the censors right! My college roommates and I used to talk about projects like this, but the idea we tossed around involved just searching for a high percentage of "flesh tones" (so it would have been racist no matter whose flesh it was tuned for), so it would have been very prone to error. As it was we had to read through the monthly "skin guide" from the cable company, and establish a "SkinCon" rating for a particular night of TV (5 = nothing on, or worse yet, Grace Jones in Vamp, 4 and down meant some decent R-rated stuff, to get below 3 you have to cheat and rent a video), and performed regular "skin scans" of the premium movie channels to see if any interesting scenes were on right now. OK maybe we were a tad obsessed... John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Feb 11 22:54:50 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) In-Reply-To: <14500.39503.484124.582381@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 06:25:03PM -0500 References: <018e01bf74d3$643cf060$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> <200002112125.WAA14087@mail2.siemens.de> <20000211181327.A3904@dbit.dbit.com> <14500.39503.484124.582381@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000211235450.B4835@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 06:25:03PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > Now, I don't have kids, so I'll not pretend to be an authority on > the subject...but it seems logical to me that keeping them informed > will go a lot farther than censoring the world for them. I think those of us without kids still get a lot of partial credit from having *been* kids at some point. > How many people here *really* learned about the "birds & bees" from > their parents? Actually my dad told us a *lot* of stuff at a very young age (but in his freakish English way -- WHO uses the word "breed" when talking about humans?!), but it was pretty funny how by the time we kids hit Sex Ed in 5th grade (of course we'd discovered Our Bodies Our Selves in the school library years earlier), we knew way more about birth control than our parents did. They thought it was pretty funny too... John Wilson D Bit From mbg at world.std.com Fri Feb 11 23:03:39 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) References: <018e01bf74d3$643cf060$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> <200002112125.WAA14087@mail2.siemens.de> <20000211181327.A3904@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <200002120503.AAA10696@world.std.com> >> Anyway this is all just another attempt to idiot-proof the world. >> Instead of > Exactly. This government is very big on "protecting the stupid". >Personally, I see it as "fighting Darwin"...natural selection can do >the right thing if left to its own devices. Well, I do believe I've seen the absolute height of the expectation of stupidity... There is a car commercial here in the states in which a rock band is playing on stage... a car drives onto the stage, and then out into the mosh pit area, apparently being supported by the concert attendees... At the bottom of the screen are the words (paraphrased): "Do not drive on people" Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sat Feb 12 00:06:47 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) In-Reply-To: <200002120503.AAA10696@world.std.com> from Megan at "Feb 12, 2000 00:03:39 am" Message-ID: <20000212060653Z433937-14195+269@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > >> Anyway this is all just another attempt to idiot-proof the world. > >> Instead of > > > Exactly. This government is very big on "protecting the stupid". > >Personally, I see it as "fighting Darwin"...natural selection can do > >the right thing if left to its own devices. > > Well, I do believe I've seen the absolute height of the expectation > of stupidity... > > There is a car commercial here in the states in which a rock band is > playing on stage... a car drives onto the stage, and then out into > the mosh pit area, apparently being supported by the concert > attendees... > > At the bottom of the screen are the words (paraphrased): > > "Do not drive on people" > We have that commercial up here too, but without the warning label. They must figure that we are either smarter here, or have dumber lawyers (both would be nice :-)). -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Feb 11 23:22:54 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <000a01bf7519$3791d6c0$6820d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 8:58 PM Subject: RE: RX01 Bootstrap Loader >>Like trying to find a needle in a haystack..... > >Not all *that* hard! > It actually was as I have all the material before '78. I thought it might be in the PDP-11/05 manual but I could not get at it.. and pulling boxes of RT11 would be a lot more headache than asking someone here. >>Would anyone know which handbook/manual the RX01 bootstrap loader is in? > >The RT-11 Installation manual is one place, the RX11 manual is another, >any of the "Microcomputer Interfaces" books that has the RXV11, ... > I found that in my own collection :-) . I just saw the abereviated version. >>I need to toggle in the RX01 bootstrap into a PDP-11/20 with 4K config. > >You could just, say, go to > > ftp://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/bootstrap s/ > >and fetch "rx01_boot.txt". > I saw that book was 1980. I checked 1976,78, peripheral handbooks.. no luck.. Processor handbooks also didn't help too much. I knew I saw it somewhere (prob. 11/05) but was not sure. Thanks for the help. >What are you going to try to boot in just 4K, BTW? I'm scratching my >head to figure out if even RT-11 V2 fit in that small a space... > I don't believe it will . Neither will RT11 V1. DOS/BATCH requires a minimum of 8K too! Even though RT11 only uses up 2K core it still won't load without 8K minimum. The only "OS" that supports 4K is "PTS-11". I needed to boot RX01s as that is a lot easier to run diagnostics across a bunch of 11/20s quickly... beats paper tape!. I have some old diagnostic disks/diagnostic code on RX01s for the 11/20. Most of the PDP-11/20s I am restoring have serial numbers under 400 so most manufactured at that time were configured with paper tape and 4K core. Most of the 11/20s I got were configured with paper tape/4k core. The *newer* ones have DECTape. I am testing all the PDP-11/20s after a basic rebuild with 4K core.. I will add more MM11-Es depending on what is requested. Due to the instruction set incompatibilities between the 11/20 and other 11s, will they even run RT11 V30B with 8K core? I expect most will probably just want PTS-11 and DOS/BATCH with an 8K core system. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > > From aek at spies.com Sat Feb 12 01:20:43 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <200002120720.XAA14990@spies.com> "I needed to boot RX01s as that is a lot easier to run diagnostics across a bunch of 11/20s quickly... beats paper tape!." Will DXDP run in 4k? From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Feb 12 05:49:44 2000 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) References: <003101bf74e9$2a8626a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <000501bf754f$417f6f40$1224fea9@dymesip> I was under the impression that this list is about Vintage Computers rather than judicial politics ........... Sipke de Wal (A European Citizen that also does not agree fully with the aforementioned statements about Europe.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2000 12:38 AM Subject: Re: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) > Well, here in the Land of the Free, there's too much exercise of freedome > not guaranteed in any document anywhere, and not tolerated in countries in > Europe. It would be so much simpler if there were only one punishment for > all violations of the law, as so many infractions are worthy of that > ultimate punishment, DEATH. The only thing that seems to vary is WHOSE > death. If every offense were met with immediate extermination, perhaps > followed by a posthumous apology, a lot of people would behave differently, > and nobody would park in my reserved space. > > In civilized countries, and NOT the U.S, it's common for citizens to turn in > their neighbors for viloating the law simply because they observe a law > being broken, and not because it has effect on their lives. The fact is > that HERE, in the U.S. a person picking up the phone and notifying the > police that there's a minor crime in progress within his view is considered, > even by the police, worse than the offender. > > In the U.S. the observable lack of civilization is evidenced in the > inability of people to inhabit a limited space as the Europeans have known > for centuries to do. For us Americans, it's growing pains. Since there's > no more land to inhabit, we're having to acquire some traits of civilized > societies because we're having to live together with more and more > strangers, often quite different form ourselves, racially, culturally, > linguistically, etc. > > Over time we're going to have to move in the direction of the European > model, which we know works, and rely more on common observance of law as > opposed to trying to circumvent it. > > Dick > -----Original Message----- > From: John Wilson > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Friday, February 11, 2000 4:18 PM > Subject: Re: V chip (was: Going totally OT ) > > > >On Fri, Feb 11, 2000 at 10:25:38PM +0000, Hans Franke wrote: > >> Let me get this straight - there is some software to be implemented > >> on TVs and VCRs to disable them on a contend related base ? > > > >Right. But remember, we're still the Land of the Free, even though most > >European countries give their citizens a lot more freedom. See, any time > >the majority (or better yet, a well-funded and vocal minority) wants > something > >censored, it's not censorship -- the founding fathers were only trying to > >protect our rights to say stuff that everyone agrees with, they hate > >people with unpopular tastes or opinions. > > > >> Just > >> assuming that there will be some kind of add on signal (at this point > >> I'd like to get some technical information) suplying the level(s) > >> of whatever (what classes are named ?), who is responsible to > >> judge the content ? > > > >There, you've hit the biggest problem. My understanding is that it's just > >a single scale -- from "not offensive" to "very offensive", according to > >someone, somewhere. Since the government likes to see everything in terms > >of strict threshholds (55 MPH = no problem, 56+ MPH = OK to lay down tack > >strips and cause a fatal crash), they've convinced themselves that everyone > >is offended by the same stuff. So some invisible authority gets to decide > >what's offensive and what isn't and everything comes prepackaged (no I > >don't know what the protocol is for labeling the show but I assume it's > some > >between-visible-scan-lines thing like closed captioning is), so you're just > >supposed to set your TV for whatever age your kids are (they're all the > same > >age, right?) and leave it at that. > > > >> Also, are the TV stations also forced to supply the coding all the time ? > > > >I think it's supposed to be done per show. Like the current TV rating > system, > >where they put up a logo at the beginning of each show saying what its > rating > >is. Ridiculous... If I owned a TV network, I'd just set everything to > "most > >offensive" and forget about it. > > > >> BTW: I know there is violence on US-TV - but sex ? > > > >There's no *real* sex on US TV, but the bible thumpers are offended by even > >the hint of it. They think that nudity is inherently wrong, and I just > >*love* the illogic that you can say anything you want but you can't use > >certain words to say it. Say the exact same thing another way and you're > >OK though. > > > >Anyway this is all just another attempt to idiot-proof the world. Instead > of > >just sitting down with their kids at a young age and explaining what sex > >is and why it should be taken seriously, the lazy absentee parents think > >the right thing is for their kids to be prevented at all costs from even > >looking down in the bath tub, so that they have no idea what's really going > >on, and it all comes as a total shock to them when they turn 18. > > > >People are unbelievably repressed in this country though. I thought my > parents > >did a pretty good job of explaining everything, but they left some > important > >stuff out, like the fact that sex is fun! What a mind-bender, hearing > about > >neighbors etc. that had gotten pregnant "by accident", I couldn't possibly > >imagine how people would pull off such a complicated disgusting procedure > >without meaning to. Makes a whole lot more sense now! > > > >> If the judgement is > >> done by the producer, someone of a 'nude acceping' show may have a > >> different feeling about the 'sex rating' then the next guy who airs > >> some TV church stuff. > > > >Exactly! Personally, I'm seriously, DEEPLY offended by anything to do with > >organized religion, yet as far as the government is concerned that stuff > >is all strictly G-rated. So I'll never convince my TV to automatically > >skip those shows. I have no problem with nudity though, and if I had kids > >I'd want them to see plenty of it too, so that the novelty would wear off > >and they wouldn't go into total cranial shutdown the way most Americans do > >when they see it (since we're strongly conditioned to think that the only > >time anyone shows any skin is when they're about to have sex with you, so > >we act like idiots when we see people naked in other contexts). But that's > >the *main* thing the government wants to stop us from seeing. > > > >Anyway, I'm not saying the government is trying to gradually eat away at > our > >rights and subtly turn the USA into a totalitarian state so slowly that no > >one even notices. But if they WERE trying to do that, they'd go about it > >exactly this way! > > > >Well anyway, I was pissed off the *last* time the gov't forced everyone to > >pay for an unneeded feature in their TVs, which was closed captioning, but > >now I use it all the time! It's really handy when the actors are mumbling, > >or when they're talking in funny voices for no apparent reason (but the > >caption explains that they're quoting from a 1930s movie I never saw), or > >when my wife falls asleep but I want to keep watching. > > > >Yech, sorry about all this OT stuff, this has gotten pretty far from > finding > >goodies in dumpsters. I once hauled an IBM 029 keypunch out of a dumpster, > >does that make up for it? It was at the company I worked for so there was > >no problem with permission, the guys who tossed it in really relished the > >experience (I guess they hadn't been big fans of that keypunch back when it > >was the company's only input device) so they were telling everyone, I > flipped > >out of course but the same guys were nice enough to help me haul the thing > out > >again. > > > >I've also had pretty good luck with the friendly neighborhood engineering > >school, especially because they're too cheap to get dumpsters for every > >building so a lot of the time stuff sits on loading docks for weeks before > >it gets hauled off, so you can just take it away (as long as you're sure > >it's scrap). I got a mostly-complete ASR33 and another terminal that way a > >couple of years ago, and a few other things (found a VK100 GIGI minus the > PSU > >sitting by the curb with some other trash, outside RPI's linear accelerator > >a few years back). No need to get waist deep in transformer oil or > anything > >yucky like that... > > > >John Wilson > >D Bit > >-------------- > >P.S. guess I spoke too soon about the drought of idiotic winter accidents > >being reported on our local TV news as "tragedies", apparently just last > night > >some bozo in Utica went snowmobiling in the dark and ate a tree at high > speed. > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Feb 12 10:05:40 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <000212110540.25601686@trailing-edge.com> >Due to the instruction set incompatibilities between the 11/20 and other >11s, will they even run RT11 V30B with 8K core? RT11 V03B ought to be OK, as long as you have enough memory. I know that 12K words core is enough (I have V03B on an 11/04 with 12K core), I suspect it will fit in 10 or 8K. If you try to run RT-11 5.5 or 5.6 on an 11/20, you'll get some complaint because EIS instructions found their way into a few utilities and drivers. This has been rectified for 5.7; see the 5.7 release notes for details. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Feb 12 11:16:23 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? Message-ID: <200002121716.MAA10428@world.std.com> -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, February 12, 2000 11:07 AM Subject: Re: RX01 Bootstrap Loader >>Due to the instruction set incompatibilities between the 11/20 and other >>11s, will they even run RT11 V30B with 8K core? > >RT11 V03B ought to be OK, as long as you have enough memory. I know that >12K words core is enough (I have V03B on an 11/04 with 12K core), I suspect >it will fit in 10 or 8K. The monitor only uses 2K core and expects 8. (SJ). > >If you try to run RT-11 5.5 or 5.6 on an 11/20, you'll get some complaint >because EIS instructions found their way into a few utilities and drivers. >This has been rectified for 5.7; see the 5.7 release notes for details. > I am more concerned about the incompatibilities in the basic instruction set. I am going to try boot RT11 V3B. If not, I'll try plain ver 3, then maybe 2. I know DEC discontinued the 11/20 in '73 which was during the initial development of the OS's. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Feb 12 12:38:18 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader In-Reply-To: <002001bf7578$7fae06e0$9a29d1d8@default>; from dylanb@sympatico.ca on Sat, Feb 12, 2000 at 11:44:58AM -0500 References: <002001bf7578$7fae06e0$9a29d1d8@default> Message-ID: <20000212133818.A6383@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Feb 12, 2000 at 11:44:58AM -0500, John B wrote: > I am more concerned about the incompatibilities in the basic instruction > set. Like what? If you mean the RTI/RTT thing and the thing about SWAB and the V bit (I hope I have those right), it's *really* unlikely that any OS code depends on either of those. The MOV SP,-(SP) thing shows up in other models so the OSes should know better than to care about that (although IIRC the DECUS DOS/BATCH BASIC actually *needs* that piece of 11/20 behavior and won't run on some of the other early models), and similarly the /04 and /05 are missing SOB too so the small-machine OSes don't use that either. John Wilson D Bit From mrdos at swbell.net Sat Feb 12 15:38:07 2000 From: mrdos at swbell.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe Message-ID: <000901bf75a1$7acb6e00$49733ed8@compaq> I recently acquired a Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe, printer, and numerous terminals. I was wondering if anyone had any software, documentation, or general knowledge of it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You, Owen Robertson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000212/aaaac60f/attachment-0001.html From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 12 16:30:18 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: [CC] Looking for a 68k Macintosh software archive. Message-ID: <20000212223018.58549.qmail@hotmail.com> Can anybody direct me to one (or a few) good websites or ftp boards that have software for 68k-based Macs (one that has Smooth Talker, & a Stylewriter II driver would be nice). ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, Double FDD, GeoRam 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Feb 12 17:06:52 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: CDC 9448 "Phoenix" Spares Kit Message-ID: <20000212.170654.267.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: I have a bunch of stuf that (more or less) makes up a spares kit for the the CDC 9448. Stuff includes: I/O Circuit Card CNTL/MUX Card Servo Coarse Board Servo Fine Board Read/Write Card Extender Board 3 R/W Heads Maintainence Manual (including schematics). As far as I can tell, all of this stuff is new, except for maybe one of the R/W heads. I can't use it, maybe someone here can. If there's any interest in this, please contact me privately. Thanks. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 12 18:13:59 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe In-Reply-To: <000901bf75a1$7acb6e00$49733ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000212191359.2d87eb5c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Owen, I don't know anything about Honeywells but I just found two Honeywell 316s in a scrap yard here in Florida. They look complete but they're just the computers. They're about 18" w x 22" d x 14" h. They WERE mounted in a rack but are now sitting on a pallet. There are also two large rack mount Pertec disk drives sitting on the same pallet. I don't know if they came out of the same systems as the Honeywells or not. No sign of cables, software, discs, docs or anything else from the system except a Teletype model 32 sitting on the other side of the yard. I don't know if it may have been part of the systems or not. Joe At 03:38 PM 2/12/00 -0600, you wrote: >I recently acquired a Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe, printer, and numerous terminals. I was wondering if anyone had any software, documentation, or general knowledge of it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > >Thank You, >Owen Robertson > >Attachment Converted: "C:\ATTACH\Honeywe2.htm" > From mtapley at swri.edu Sat Feb 12 17:18:40 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: <200002122232.QAA24936@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: All, At the Texas Thrift Store in San Antonio, loop 410 just south of Ingram, I found: AT&T 6300 and Xerox box - these two looked identical except different color schemes. Both $6.95, "as-is" and the Xerox says "works". Xerox claimed to be made in Italy, I didn't check AT&T. Apple IIGS - mmmm...$13.95? I didn't write it down. "as-is" Franklin Ace 100? - ... $6.95?? "as-is". All boxes were seperated from monitors, keyboards, cables, manuals, software - bare boxes only. I did not spot any such peripherals which looked at all related to any of the above, but didn't look very hard. If anyone is interested, email me offline and I'll buy, pack, ship, and let you know how much it cost to do all three. Hopefully, you'll then send me a check for that amount... - Mark PS are announcements like this of value to anyone? Should I continue them? Move them to the auction-announce list? Comments offline preferred, online OK if they are of general interest. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 12 18:07:35 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. (Mark Tapley) References: <200002122232.QAA24936@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <14501.62919.833680.271750@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 12, Mark Tapley wrote: > AT&T 6300 and Xerox box - these two looked identical except different > color schemes. Both $6.95, "as-is" and the Xerox says "works". Xerox > claimed to be made in Italy, I didn't check AT&T. The AT&T 6300 was actually made by Olivetti, in Italy... Be aware that 6300s use proprietary (and very nice, IMO) monitors. -Dave McGuire From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Feb 12 18:18:11 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: HP 4972A LAN Protocol Analyser Message-ID: <20000212181811.I18249@mrbill.net> Anybody know anything about a HP 4972A LAN Protocol Analyser? Where I can find the OS software? manuals? etc? Is this machine still worth anything? Thanks.. (copyright date on the OS it boots is '90, so hey, it fits the ten-year rule..) Bill -- +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@pdp11.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | | http://www.sunhelp.org | http://www.pdp11.org | http://www.mrbill.net | +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 12 18:32:53 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: HP 4972A LAN Protocol Analyser In-Reply-To: HP 4972A LAN Protocol Analyser (Bill Bradford) References: <20000212181811.I18249@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <14501.64437.394039.140185@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 12, Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody know anything about a HP 4972A LAN Protocol Analyser? > Where I can find the OS software? manuals? etc? Is this > machine still worth anything? > > Thanks.. (copyright date on the OS it boots is '90, so hey, it > fits the ten-year rule..) I have one, I use it regularly, and I love it. Yes it's ten years old...but it's a piece of test equipment, not a computer, so it's only getting "a little" old at this point. Newer units are a bit more flashy and flexible, but those newer units also tend to be Windows PC laptops running network analyzer software that some college schmuck threw together in Visual Basic...and thus tend to blow up a lot. The HP4972 isn't a Windows PC in disguise...it's an honest piece of application-specific- engineered test equipment that does its job very well. I have the documentation, and I'd be willing to loan it to you. I also (obviously) have the software...I'm not sure how to copy it out of the machine, but if we can figure that out, I'll help you get yours running. FYI they tend to go for anywhere between $500-$1000 (working) on the surplus market, or up to about $2500 in the "commercial" used test equipment market. -Dave McGuire From aek at spies.com Sat Feb 12 18:37:20 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe Message-ID: <200002130037.QAA24306@spies.com> "I don't know anything about Honeywells but I just found two Honeywell 316s in a scrap yard here in Florida." John B knows quite a bit about these. I have docs for the 516 series mostly. Are the Pertec drives front or top loading? Any sign of a Pertec disc formatter box? docs (i know.. ha ha..) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 12 18:41:57 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000212191359.2d87eb5c@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <000901bf75a1$7acb6e00$49733ed8@compaq> Message-ID: Joe, > I don't know anything about Honeywells but I just found two Honeywell >316s in a scrap yard here in Florida. They look complete but they're just I hope you rescued them. As much as it pains me to admit it Honeywell computers are worth rescueing as there aren't a lot out there. I suspect most have been scraped already, especially ones that the Government had. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Feb 12 18:53:27 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader References: <000212110540.25601686@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <38A60087.463E68C1@idirect.com> >CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Due to the instruction set incompatibilities between the 11/20 and other > >11s, will they even run RT11 V30B with 8K core? > RT11 V03B ought to be OK, as long as you have enough memory. I know that > 12K words core is enough (I have V03B on an 11/04 with 12K core), I suspect > it will fit in 10 or 8K. Jerome Fine replies: I see that V3.0 distribution of RT-11 has a MAC8K.SAV file. Does this mean that the total memory, including the RT-11 Operating System, can run in 8 KBytes with MAC8K running in somewhat less? OR, does MAC8K.SAV require 8 KBytes just to run itself (000000 to 017776) with RT-11 being located above 020000 (octal)? Is it possible that you have a complete V03.0B distribution? I have several incomplete sets and also a V3.0 distribution from 14-Aug-1977 with the boot floppy (RX01) partly overwritten (about the first 287 blocks) which means that seven SAV files are not available, but can fortunately be replaced by later versions that are available from V3.0B files which should be compatible if someone wants for some reason to use the actual V3.0 Operating System of RT-11 as opposed to V3.0B of RT-11. I believe that V3.0B files have a date of 11-Mar-1978. Also, I looked at the SYSMAC.SML file and note that there is no .DrVTB macro present (also no .DrSet macro although the information is hard coded into the various device drivers, and obviously the SET commands do work). Does this mean, in your opinion (maybe you or someone else remembers that far back - 22 years ago) that an LS.MAC device driver can't operate in V3.0B since RT-11 is not yet smart enough to use dual CSR/VECTOR hardware that requires two .DrAst entries? I notice that V4.0 of RT-11 finally has the LS.SYS device driver, but there is none present in V3.0B of RT-11, only the LP.SYS device driver. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Feb 12 18:57:24 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: HP 4972A LAN Protocol Analyser In-Reply-To: <20000212181811.I18249@mrbill.net>; from mrbill@mrbill.net on Sat, Feb 12, 2000 at 06:18:11PM -0600 References: <20000212181811.I18249@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20000212185724.K18249@mrbill.net> On Sat, Feb 12, 2000 at 06:18:11PM -0600, Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody know anything about a HP 4972A LAN Protocol Analyser? > Where I can find the OS software? manuals? etc? Is this > machine still worth anything? > Thanks.. (copyright date on the OS it boots is '90, so hey, it > fits the ten-year rule..) > Bill Here's a picture of one (mine looks exactly like this): http://www.pendex.com/testeq/hp/4972A-2.JPG Bill -- +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@pdp11.org | mrbill@mrbill.net | | http://www.sunhelp.org | http://www.pdp11.org | http://www.mrbill.net | +------------------------+----------------------+-----------------------+ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 12 20:42:44 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: References: <200002122232.QAA24936@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000212214244.3e471338@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 05:18 PM 2/12/00 -0600, you wrote: >All, > At the Texas Thrift Store in San Antonio, loop 410 just south of >Ingram, I found: > >AT&T 6300 and Xerox box - these two looked identical except different >color schemes. Both $6.95, "as-is" and the Xerox says "works". Xerox >claimed to be made in Italy, I didn't check AT&T. FWIW Both were made in Italy by Olivetti. But I've never heard of one that was marked XEROX. That must be pretty unusual, you should think about picking it up. Also the 6300s need special monitors with 15 (or 25?) pin connectors. >Apple IIGS - mmmm...$13.95? I didn't write it down. "as-is" > >Franklin Ace 100? - ... $6.95?? "as-is". > > All boxes were seperated from monitors, keyboards, cables, manuals, >software - bare boxes only. I did not spot any such peripherals which >looked at all related to any of the above, but didn't look very hard. > If anyone is interested, email me offline and I'll buy, pack, ship, >and let you know how much it cost to do all three. Hopefully, you'll then >send me a check for that amount... > - Mark >PS are announcements like this of value to anyone? Should I continue them? >Move them to the auction-announce list? Comments offline preferred, online >OK if they are of general interest. Yeah, keep 'em coming. It's interesting to see what turns up and where and what the prices are. Joe > > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat Feb 12 18:37:36 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <004901bf75ba$860e1560$9a29d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, February 12, 2000 2:22 AM Subject: Re: RX01 Bootstrap Loader >"I needed to boot RX01s as that is a lot easier to run diagnostics across a >bunch of 11/20s quickly... beats paper tape!." > >Will DXDP run in 4k? > I have been able to boot XXDP on the PDP-11/20, no problems... but.. (here is where I have a problem) I know the PDP-11/20 is booting RT-11v3.0B as it loads for about 20 seconds.... problem is I don't get anything on the teletype. When booted, RT11 is waiting for keyboard input but does not read mine. When I use an M9312 (ver bad fit) I can type, when I boot XXDP it boots fine as well and I can type. I am using a KL11 (yuck) which uses one vector for both send/receive... at least thats what I thought I read. I just gave Jerome Fine RT-11v3.0B distribution to archive so I don't have the disks handy to find out if there was a special driver to support the KL11 teletype interface. I *really* don't want to hook up mag tape or RK05s eight now so... does someone know if there is a special driver for the KL11? BTW: RT11 V4 does not boot at all.. well, I hear the RX01 reading a bit... then it dies. KL11 setup: addr: 777560 , vector: 60. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 12 20:03:50 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: More interesting TK50 fun Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000212173203.020b1e30@mcmanis.com> Ok, so I had an old TK50Z-GA that was marked "dead" and I ripped it apart and discovered a couple of blow caps on the "heater" board :-) (some adjunct to the PSU) replaced those and it seems to work somewhat again (I've not hooked it up to SCSI, just powered it up to see the drive light up) Anyway, I took my other drive that I was powering up on the bench and by wiggling out the TK50 connector and the power connector I can now plug this thing in an watch it in "real time." This has yielded a bit more information about the failure mode of the drive. With the cover removed I can watch what the drive is doing. This is what I've found out. The "hook up" leader was around the spool and out of the feed path. Now when powered up the drive turns the spool a bit and then starts spinning it making the leader thingy go whack whack whack on the edges. (DEC weed whacker! :-) If I re-feed the take up lead through the tape path it moves back and forth a bit and then stops with the red light flashing. [Note to Tim: My test tape is a scratch tape] Then I fed the tape in manually and hooked it up to the leader. Now the tape was taken up on the spool a bit, then it rewinds to what might be the load point and stops. Then the red button flashes. If I try the press and release a few times leaving it in the unpressed position the drive feeds some time then rewinds and stops just as the end of the actual tape (beginning of the pick up lead) reaches the capstan. [Reference Picture : http://home.mcmanis.com/images/tk50-2.jpg ] In the reference picture I circled in Orange where the leader stops and in red where I cleaned with a q-tip. I've confirmed with my IR detector that the LED in the lower right side of the picture (more toward the rear) is emitting. So several questions come to mind. I'll pop out some of the obvious ones... 1) Does the Red Light/Button on the right hand side in the "out" position mean "unload" ? 2) When does the green light come on (except on power up when it is unloaded.) ? 3) It appears that a "working" unload sequence would have the tape leader get sucked back into the tape and the 'unhooker' should engage the hook leader. Why would it stop before it got that far? --Chuck From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Feb 12 20:05:59 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: More interesting TK50 fun Message-ID: <000212210559.256017d6@trailing-edge.com> >So several questions come to mind. I'll pop out some of the obvious ones... > >1) Does the Red Light/Button on the right hand side in the "out" position >mean "unload" ? Yes. >2) When does the green light come on (except on power up when it is >unloaded.) ? Green light on (solid) means it's OK to operate the handle. >3) It appears that a "working" unload sequence would have the tape leader >get sucked back > into the tape and the 'unhooker' should engage the hook leader. Why >would it stop > before it got that far? While it's doing its tricks, look carefully at the metal capstan that the tape and leader goes over at the rear of the drive. There's an optical interrupter connected to the shaft of this, and this is the only way that the TK50 knows that the tape is actually moving. If tape or leader is moving over this capstan without turning the capstan, the TK50 drive gets all confused and gives up. So look carefully to see if that capstan is turning as tape gets pulled over it. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mbg at world.std.com Sat Feb 12 20:20:04 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader References: <000212110540.25601686@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200002130220.VAA20693@world.std.com> >Also, I looked at the SYSMAC.SML file and note that there is no .DrVTB >macro present (also no .DrSet macro although the information is hard >coded into the various device drivers, and obviously the SET commands do >work). Does this mean, in your opinion (maybe you or someone else >remembers that far back - 22 years ago) that an LS.MAC device driver >can't operate in V3.0B since RT-11 is not yet smart enough to use dual >CSR/VECTOR hardware that requires two .DrAst entries? I notice that V4.0 >of RT-11 finally has the LS.SYS device driver, but there is none present >in V3.0B of RT-11, only the LP.SYS device driver. The .DRxxx set of macros were not added to RT until about the V4.0 timeframe. If you were to take an LS.MAC from a later release and modify it in such a way that it did not use .DRxxx macros, and used what data structures were available in V3B, it certainly would work. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Sat Feb 12 20:25:52 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <200002130225.VAA23808@world.std.com> >I have been able to boot XXDP on the PDP-11/20, no problems... but.. >(here is where I have a problem) >I know the PDP-11/20 is booting RT-11v3.0B as it loads for about 20 >seconds.... problem is I don't get anything on the teletype. When booted, >RT11 is waiting for keyboard input but does not read mine. Taken with what you mentioned elsewhere in the message, I suspect that XXDP does PIO while RT uses interrupt-driven IO, and without the other interrupt working, it won't work. I have an idea of how it could be made to, though... contact me off-line... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 12 21:00:33 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe In-Reply-To: <200002130037.QAA24306@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000212220033.3d8faa66@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:37 PM 2/12/00 -0800, you wrote: >"I don't know anything about Honeywells but I just found two Honeywell >316s in a scrap yard here in Florida." > >John B knows quite a bit about these. I have docs for the 516 series mostly. > >Are the Pertec drives front or top loading? Any sign of a Pertec disc formatter >box? docs (i know.. ha ha..) They're front loaders. The tops are unfinished and the drives are obviously made to be put in rack where the tops, bottoms, sides don't show. What does the formatter box look like? It's not on the pallet unless it's so small that I overlooked it. But I can look for it the next time I'm there. Docs? What are those????? :-/ Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 12 21:05:47 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000212191359.2d87eb5c@mailhost.intellistar.net> <000901bf75a1$7acb6e00$49733ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000212220547.45af8830@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:41 PM 2/12/00 -0800, Zane wrote: >Joe, >> I don't know anything about Honeywells but I just found two Honeywell >>316s in a scrap yard here in Florida. They look complete but they're just > >I hope you rescued them. Nope. The owner is wanting "offers" on them. I think he hopes to retire soon! I'll be happy to pass on any offers or give you his name and phone number. Much as I'd like to, I don't have the money to buy ANYTHING at the moment. I just got back from the second day of a THREE day hamfest and I have exactly $5 of spending money left! But I have gotten some GREAT bargains. But that's another story. Joe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 12 20:46:26 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: TK50 gymnastics Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000212183909.01f8d9f0@mcmanis.com> Ok, so now that I've got a mini TK50 test bed set up I tested three other TK50s that I had in a box "condition unknown". After cleaning out some killer dust bunnies they all seem to do the write things. For the archives, TK50 behaviour is as follows: Power on (empty) hums a bit, Red light on. Red Light push button should be in the "out" position. Internal tape spindle moves a bit. Solenoid goes "click" and green light goes on (red off) Lift handle, slide in tape, close handle. Light stays green, nothing happens. Press Red light/button into the "depressed" position. Green light goes off, tape begins motion. Whir, Whir, grind grind grind, tape stops green light and red light remain lit. Use tape in this mode, when finished... Press Red light/button to the "out" position. Tape moves a bit then rewinds rapidly. Tape slows, light flickers, "click" Solenoid retracts and green light goes on. So my broken drive doesn't want to put the leader into the "load/unload" position. Instead the tape stops before it gets completely unwound. I've been using the same tape on all drives so that eliminates the tape as a candidate for now. --Chuck From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Feb 12 20:40:15 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader In-Reply-To: <38A60087.463E68C1@idirect.com>; from jhfine@idirect.com on Sat, Feb 12, 2000 at 07:53:27PM -0500 References: <000212110540.25601686@trailing-edge.com> <38A60087.463E68C1@idirect.com> Message-ID: <20000212214015.A7457@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Feb 12, 2000 at 07:53:27PM -0500, Jerome Fine wrote: > I see that V3.0 distribution of RT-11 has a MAC8K.SAV file. Does this > mean that the total memory, including the RT-11 Operating System, can > run in 8 KBytes with MAC8K running in somewhat less? OR, does > MAC8K.SAV require 8 KBytes just to run itself (000000 to 017776) > with RT-11 being located above 020000 (octal)? I believe it means 8 K for the whole system, but it's 8 K *words* not 8 K bytes. But I can't find anything in the MACRO V4.0 (which had an 8 K flavor too) manual that says for sure, all they do is show which features are missing in MAC8K. John Wilson D Bit From edick at idcomm.com Sat Feb 12 20:46:14 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: CDC 9448 "Phoenix" Spares Kit Message-ID: <001201bf75cc$7f4b9060$0400c0a8@winbook> If anybody needs one, I've got this old suitcase-sized SMD tester. If you're planning to do any maintenance I'm told they're useful. I got this only a few weeks before getting rid of the last of my SMD hardware. That was twenty years ago. I've never had occasion to use it. THe only place I ever used SMD was on my old Systems Group S-100 setup, together with a Konan SMC-100 controller. Dick -----Original Message----- From: jeff.kaneko@juno.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, February 12, 2000 7:42 PM Subject: CDC 9448 "Phoenix" Spares Kit >Guys: > >I have a bunch of stuf that (more or less) makes up >a spares kit for the the CDC 9448. > >Stuff includes: > >I/O Circuit Card >CNTL/MUX Card >Servo Coarse Board >Servo Fine Board >Read/Write Card >Extender Board >3 R/W Heads >Maintainence Manual (including schematics). > >As far as I can tell, all of this stuff is >new, except for maybe one of the R/W heads. >I can't use it, maybe someone here can. > >If there's any interest in this, please contact me >privately. > > >Thanks. > > >Jeff > > > >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From aek at spies.com Sat Feb 12 20:56:49 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe Message-ID: <200002130256.SAA28720@spies.com> "What does the formatter box look like?" Pertec formatters are about 3" high very boring looking rack mounted boxes. They may have been used with an internal 2315 style disc interface in the 316. The drives themselves are 2.5 mb (or 5 if there's a fixed disc underneath the removable) 2315 style devices. If they're the original Pertec Blue, I would suspect someone would want them for their Altair 8800b's From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 12 22:11:29 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <000001bf74aa$96af5ac0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000212231129.5007a818@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, Mike Haas came down from jacksonville and we went to the first day of the Orlando hamfest. Mike scored big time! No less than 6 different TRS computers. Several are like new and in their original boxs with all the books. He also bought several other interesting toys! I picked up all five of the original E&L BugBooks. Only on looks like it was ever touched. The others are all in PERFECT condition. I also picked up another HP 3468 digital multimeter with the HP-IL interface. :-) Also several NEW manuals for the HP 85 computer. Also several Tektronix manuals relating to HP-IB programming using the Tektronic 4051 computer. Also found the user's manual for the Tektronix 4662 plotter that I have to go with my 4051. Also found a 1982 Tektronix catalog, you can guess what it shows :-) Other finds include some kind of CPU board with a 1802 Cosmac CPU, a HP 97 manual and a Heathkit 4804 Byte probe. However the most surprising find was five boxs full of Intel 1702 EPROMs. In one box I found several ICs marked "AMD AM9217APC". I can't find a reference to them, does anyone know what they are? Also they say "Proto" below the IC number. Does that mean that these are prototypes? Joe From bill_r at inetnebr.com Sat Feb 12 21:25:42 2000 From: bill_r at inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: Nortel modem-terminals/display phones In-Reply-To: <200002102340.SAA30309@armigeron.com> References: <20000210154145.B28218@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <200002102340.SAA30309@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:40:42 -0500 (EST), you wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Shawn T. Rutledge once stated: >> >> On Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 03:59:26PM -0600, Bill Richman wrote: >> > in them. What I've decided to do for terminals around the house (including >> > the kitchen and bathroom) is to buy some old 486 laptops with color displays >> > and PCMCIA slots. I've got PCMCIA ethernet cards for them, and am shopping >> > for PCMCIA sound cards. My plan is to run Linux or FreeBSD on them, and >> > X-windows, > > Be warned, while you can run Linux with 4M of RAM, installing Linux with >4M of RAM isn't easy. It took me the better part of a day to install Linux >on a Toshiba T1900C with 4M RAM and 120M harddrive (a half-baked manual >installtion of RedHat using Tom's Root/Doot disk and an existing RedHat >system) and a 3Com modem/ethernet PCMCIA card (and it's currently hooked >into the network at home). > We received the first "batch" of Compaq 486/50's I bought (24MB RAM, 384MB HDD, TFT active color display, two PCMCIA slots, built-in trackball) along with a couple of PCMCIA ethernet cards (IBM), and it turns out that FreeBSD works *great* on them; just loads up, detects the ethernet card, installs over the net and runs. They work great for browsing the 'net and for home control stuff. I've spent most of the last couple of days fishing cat 5 cable all through the house. Now we can even surf the net from the bathroom... ;-) -Bill Richman (bill_r@inetnebr.com) http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r - Home of the COSMAC Elf Microcomputer Simulator, Fun with Molten Metal, Orphaned Robots, and Technological Oddities. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 12 22:40:55 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe In-Reply-To: <200002130256.SAA28720@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000212234055.572fbf04@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:56 PM 2/12/00 -0800, Al wrote: >"What does the formatter box look like?" > >Pertec formatters are about 3" high very boring looking rack mounted >boxes. They may have been used with an internal 2315 style disc interface >in the 316. The drives themselves are 2.5 mb (or 5 if there's a fixed >disc underneath the removable) 2315 style devices. OK, I'll show my ignorance, what's a 2315 style device or 2315 interface? I wonder if the formatters might be attached to the drives? If they're the original >Pertec Blue, I would suspect someone would want them for their Altair 8800b's No, these aren't floppy drives. It looks like these use a removeable platter that's about 14" across. If they had been Pertec floppy drives I would have grabbed them! The whole box is about the same size as the Honeywell but about 2 inches taller. Roughly 18" w x 15" h x 20" deep. Joe > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Feb 12 21:41:27 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <200002130341.WAA28493@world.std.com> Ok, so I've come up with a plausible explanation for my TK50 problem. Apparently the drive thinks there is a tape cartridge in it, even though there isn't one. It runs the classic "loading sequence" (slow uptake then fast uptake) even though there isn't a cartridge present. That suggests that it is mistaken about the presence of a tape. So, does anyone know what all of the methods are the TK50 uses to sense the presence of a tape? I'd like to get this one fixed as it is an E4 (I've got two B2's, one E3, and working E4 and one dead E4) --Chuck From aek at spies.com Sat Feb 12 21:58:06 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds Message-ID: <200002130358.TAA30765@spies.com> ""AMD AM9217APC". I can't find a reference to them, does anyone know what they are?" 2k x 8 static RAMs. Are they 24 pin? From aek at spies.com Sat Feb 12 22:21:15 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe Message-ID: <200002130421.UAA31546@spies.com> IBM developed the front loading 2315 disc drive in the 60's, and is the basis for Diablo 31, Wanco, Pertec, HP 7900, and DEC RK05 2.5Mb single platter removable disc drives. >Pertec Blue, I would suspect someone would want them for their Altair 8800b's No, these aren't floppy drives. I know.. take a look at the Pertec adds in Byte in the early 80's, and there should be pictures of these drives in configurations with late MITS systems after MITS was bought by Pertec. Plessey also sold Pertec drives with their clone of the RK-11 disc controller. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 12 22:40:12 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: TK50 redux Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000212203645.01f82db0@mcmanis.com> Well I discovered the problem. The extender arm that is engaged by the cartridge when it is inserted has been bent. (Perhaps someone tried to shove a cartridge in without the handle lifted.) Anyway, without a replacement part the TK50 is not going to work again. Strangely, I went into another pile and came up with another E4 rev TK50 that had a different problem thinking that I might get the piece I need. No such luck, the mechanisms are quite different. There must be a zillion ECOs on the TK50, I don't think any two out of 6 present are identical. Well I've got four working ones and two dead ones. Other than the leader grabber, what other parts might be good salvage? (The hulks will stay in my scrap pile but at least they are now 'down for the count.') --Chuck From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Feb 13 01:15:01 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds Message-ID: <9.20e48a6.25d7b3f5@aol.com> In a message dated 2/12/2000 7:14:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > arked "AMD AM9217APC". I can't find a reference to them, does anyone know > what they are? Also they say "Proto" below the IC number. Does that mean > that these are prototypes? > My 1983 Almac catalog says they are 16K ROMs, organized as 2048X8. The 'A' is 550 ns., 5 V., 368mW. Since they say proto I suspect they are pre-programed ROMs. Paxton From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sat Feb 12 23:45:47 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <004001bf75e5$93e0b140$9a29d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, February 12, 2000 9:28 PM Subject: Re: RX01 Bootstrap Loader > >Taken with what you mentioned elsewhere in the message, I suspect that >XXDP does PIO while RT uses interrupt-driven IO That's right. You can set the vector to anything you want (well, almost) and XXDP will boot and talk to the console - no matter the kind. M9312 will talk to a single interrupt teletype card as it too does PIO. I find that out every time I pull out a DL11-W and the vectors get messed up because the dip switches brush against another board. DEC *must* have done something for customers who did not wish to upgrade their old KL11s (M780 cards). After going through tech notes and FCOs I found that DEC switched from M780 -> M782 -> M7821 . Since a DL11-B,C,E, or -W can not be installed in the PDP-11/20 (because no +15V) a decision was made to add a G8000 module that would filter the 8V lamp voltage and use it as +15, add a couple of wires.. and a DL11 with EIA could work. As a result of RT11, DEC produced a new interrupt module M7820 (old one was M782). The new module handled two interrupts. :-) I just found a box of them :-) and the PDP-11/20 just booted RT11-V3.0B!!! and.. I just tried to boot RT11-V4.00 . Boots okay but there is not enough memory to run Basic. Those MM11-Es are a dogs breakfast. I can live with tuning 4K of core memory in a PDP-8 but tuning a bunch of core sets in a pdp-11!??!?! Yuck. executing "Show All" returns the mini is a "PDP-11/15,20 Processor".. after that it says "no device 012056". Guess I have to sysgen a 30b and a 4 for the 11/20s. >, and without the other >interrupt working, it won't work. I have an idea of how it could be made >to, though... contact me off-line... Thanks for the help... I am happy that the PDP-11/20s will continue to use the initial KL11 board set but I will contact you off list so that maybe the original M782 module can be used. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Sun Feb 13 00:43:49 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader Message-ID: <008501bf75ed$af2e2880$9a29d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Megan To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, February 12, 2000 9:28 PM Subject: Re: RX01 Bootstrap Loader > >Taken with what you mentioned elsewhere in the message, I suspect that >XXDP does PIO while RT uses interrupt-driven IO That's right. You can set the vector to anything you want (well, almost) and XXDP will boot and talk to the console - no matter the kind. M9312 will talk to a single interrupt teletype card as it too does PIO. I find that out every time I pull out a DL11-W and the vectors get messed up because the dip switches brush against another board. DEC *must* have done something for customers who did not wish to upgrade their old KL11s (M780 cards). After going through tech notes and FCOs I found that DEC switched from M780 -> M782 -> M7821 . Since a DL11-B,C,E, or -W can not be installed in the PDP-11/20 (because no +15V) a decision was made to add a G8000 module that would filter the 8V lamp voltage and use it as +15, add a couple of wires.. and a DL11 with EIA could work. As a result of RT11, DEC produced a new interrupt module M7820 (old one was M782). The new module handled two interrupts. :-) I just found a box of them :-) and the PDP-11/20 just booted RT11-V3.0B!!! and.. I just tried to boot RT11-V4.00 . Boots okay but there is not enough memory to run Basic. Those MM11-Es are a dogs breakfast. I can live with tuning 4K of core memory in a PDP-8 but tuning a bunch of core sets in a pdp-11!??!?! Yuck. executing "Show All" returns the mini is a "PDP-11/15,20 Processor".. after that it says "no device 012056". Guess I have to sysgen a 30b and a 4 for the 11/20s. >, and without the other >interrupt working, it won't work. I have an idea of how it could be made >to, though... contact me off-line... Thanks for the help... I am happy that the PDP-11/20s will continue to use the initial KL11 board set but I will contact you off list so that maybe the original M782 module can be used. john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Feb 13 02:15:15 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: CDC 9448 "Phoenix" Spares Kit In-Reply-To: <001201bf75cc$7f4b9060$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000213001515.00939a80@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 19:46 12-02-2000 -0700, you wrote: >If anybody needs one, I've got this old suitcase-sized SMD tester. If >you're planning to do any maintenance I'm told they're useful. I got this Is this the big thick one with about a zillion paddle switches and loads of test points? If so, it might actually have been made by (or for) Seagate. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From Jgzabol at aol.com Sun Feb 13 03:51:50 2000 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe Message-ID: In einer eMail vom 12.02.00 22:42:55 (MEZ) Mitteleurop?ische Zeit schreibt mrdos@swbell.net: > I recently acquired a Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe, printer, and numerous > terminals. I was wondering if anyone had any software, documentation, or > general knowledge of it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > I have a Bull DPS-6000, which really is a Honeywell. If there would be a correspondence between the machines, I would have docs and software. Do you have any idea if these might be the same machine ? Regards John G. Zabolitzky P.S. Any takers for the Convex so far ? From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Sun Feb 13 06:45:22 2000 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:41 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <009501bf7620$31b15700$9e3dc018@tp.nsw.bigpond.net.au> I've just found a TI PC circa 1983, 8088 cpu but not IBM compatible. Can't find any references to it anywhere. Is the story of this and the founding of Compaq to be found anywhere on the net. I gather they are related. This one came from a very fastidious former TI employee who seems to have accumulated every bit of software for it he could. Includes UCSD P-system, CP/M 86 and Concurrent CP/M 86 as well as all the DOS compilers of the era. Hans From vaxman at uswest.net Sun Feb 13 09:46:00 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: More interesting TK50 fun In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000212173203.020b1e30@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Feb 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > Ok, so I had an old TK50Z-GA that was marked "dead" and I ripped it apart > and discovered a couple of blow caps on the "heater" board :-) (some > adjunct to the PSU) replaced those and it seems to work somewhat again > (I've not hooked it up to SCSI, just powered it up to see the drive light up) > The "heater" board is used to supply enough load to keep the switching power supply happy. > Anyway, I took my other drive that I was powering up on the bench and by > wiggling out the TK50 connector and the power connector I can now plug this > thing in an watch it in "real time." > > This has yielded a bit more information about the failure mode of the > drive. With the cover removed I can watch what the drive is doing. This is > what I've found out. > > The "hook up" leader was around the spool and out of the feed path. Now > when powered up the drive turns the spool a bit and then starts spinning it > making the leader thingy go whack whack whack on the edges. (DEC weed > whacker! :-) If I re-feed the take up lead through the tape path it moves > back and forth a bit and then stops with the red light flashing. > > [Note to Tim: My test tape is a scratch tape] > > Then I fed the tape in manually and hooked it up to the leader. Now the > tape was taken up on the spool a bit, then it rewinds to what might be the > load point and stops. Then the red button flashes. If I try the press and > release a few times leaving it in the unpressed position the drive feeds > some time then rewinds and stops just as the end of the actual tape > (beginning of the pick up lead) reaches the capstan. > If the "hook up" leader is a little bit bent at the end, it will not feed past the read head. Put a little reverse bend on it, hook it to the tape, and make sure it slides freely. > [Reference Picture : http://home.mcmanis.com/images/tk50-2.jpg ] > > In the reference picture I circled in Orange where the leader stops and in > red where I cleaned with a q-tip. I've confirmed with my IR detector that > the LED in the lower right side of the picture (more toward the rear) is > emitting. > > So several questions come to mind. I'll pop out some of the obvious ones... > > 1) Does the Red Light/Button on the right hand side in the "out" position > mean "unload" ? Off means unlocked (you can lift the handle and remove the tape) Off also means no power (you can't lift the handle and remove the tape) On steady means tape loaded Flashing means rewinding or unloading or error (Grrrr) > 2) When does the green light come on (except on power up when it is > unloaded.) ? When the tape is loaded and ready > 3) It appears that a "working" unload sequence would have the tape leader > get sucked back > into the tape and the 'unhooker' should engage the hook leader. Why > would it stop > before it got that far? > See above > --Chuck > > > > From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Feb 13 10:10:52 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader References: <000212110540.25601686@trailing-edge.com> <200002130220.VAA20693@world.std.com> Message-ID: <38A6D78C.D4CBE8B7@idirect.com> >Megan wrote: > >Also, I looked at the SYSMAC.SML file and note that there is no .DrVTB > >macro present (also no .DrSet macro although the information is hard > >coded into the various device drivers, and obviously the SET commands do > >work). Does this mean, in your opinion (maybe you or someone else > >remembers that far back - 22 years ago) that an LS.MAC device driver > >can't operate in V3.0B since RT-11 is not yet smart enough to use dual > >CSR/VECTOR hardware that requires two .DrAst entries? I notice that V4.0 > >of RT-11 finally has the LS.SYS device driver, but there is none present > >in V3.0B of RT-11, only the LP.SYS device driver. > The .DRxxx set of macros were not added to RT until about the V4.0 > timeframe. If you were to take an LS.MAC from a later release and > modify it in such a way that it did not use .DRxxx macros, and used > what data structures were available in V3B, it certainly would work. Jerome Fine replies: I do not wish to contradict you, but I did "EDIT" the V3.0 SYSMAC.SML file and found: .DrBeg .DrAst .DrFin .DrEnd >From what I can understand, that means that the essential macros were already available. While .DrSet would have been helpful, I can see in block zero of LPX.SYS that there is a full set (pardon the pun) of SET options and the LP.MAC file just has them hard coded in place. The key question I am wondering about is IF the ISR interaction between the operating system and the device driver that is present in V4.0 of RT-11 when the LSX.SYS device driver is LOADed and both pair of CSR/VECTOR are activated (so that XON/XOFF can be allowed for a serial printer) is also present in V3.0 of RT-11? I do not want to assume that just because V4.0 allowed two CSR/VECTOR pairs to be active and a device driver such as LSX.SYS to have two .DrAst entry points that V3.0 of RT-11 also allows the same thing. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From mikeporter at att.net Sun Feb 13 10:31:24 2000 From: mikeporter at att.net (Mike Porter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds References: <200002130758.BAA30058@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <38A6DC5C.BC99914A@att.net> I would be interested in those HP-85 manuals (and any other 85 stuff) if you are interested in selling them. Mike Porter > From: Joe > Subject: IC question and hamfest finds > > Hi, > > Mike Haas came down from jacksonville and we went to the first day of > the Orlando hamfest. Mike scored big time! No less than 6 different TRS > computers. Several are like new and in their original boxs with all the > books. He also bought several other interesting toys! > > I picked up all five of the original E&L BugBooks. Only on looks like it > was ever touched. The others are all in PERFECT condition. I also picked > up another HP 3468 digital multimeter with the HP-IL interface. :-) Also > several NEW manuals for the HP 85 computer. Also several Tektronix manuals > relating to HP-IB programming using the Tektronic 4051 computer. Also found > the user's manual for the Tektronix 4662 plotter that I have to go with my > 4051. Also found a 1982 Tektronix catalog, you can guess what it shows :-) > Other finds include some kind of CPU board with a 1802 Cosmac CPU, a HP 97 > manual and a Heathkit 4804 Byte probe. However the most surprising find > was five boxs full of Intel 1702 EPROMs. In one box I found several ICs > marked "AMD AM9217APC". I can't find a reference to them, does anyone know > what they are? Also they say "Proto" below the IC number. Does that mean > that these are prototypes? > > Joe > > ------------------------------ From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 13 10:45:02 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer Message-ID: <20000213164502.22523.qmail@hotmail.com> >I've just found a TI PC circa 1983, 8088 cpu but not IBM compatible. >Can't find any references to it anywhere. > >Is the story of this and the founding of Compaq to be found anywhere >on >the net. I gather they are related. > >This one came from a very fastidious former TI employee who seems to >have >accumulated every bit of software for it he could. Includes >UCSD P-system, >CP/M 86 and Concurrent CP/M 86 as well as all the DOS >compilers of the >era. > >Hans Here is all I know about the history of the TI-PC. The TI-PC was released in 1984 not too long after the world famous TI-99/4A rolled over & died. The machine itself is a partial IBM-PC clone, but is not completely compatible as it uses a proprietary disk format (reminds me of an AT&T PC 6300/6400), & it's own version of DOS (TI-DOS, to be exact). The machine reportedly had excellent graphics hardware (for the day, anyway), & one of the best early PC keyboards anywhere. I have only seen one of these things "in the flesh", & that was a few years ago (either 1997 or 1998) in a getting repaired (!) in a Radio Shack. Despite all this, however, the machine failed to sell in large quantities & was abandoned by TI in less than a year. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, Double FDD, GeoRam 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mbg at world.std.com Sun Feb 13 11:07:49 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: RX01 Bootstrap Loader References: <000212110540.25601686@trailing-edge.com> <200002130220.VAA20693@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200002131707.MAA13685@world.std.com> >Jerome Fine replies: > >I do not wish to contradict you, but I did "EDIT" the V3.0 SYSMAC.SML >file and found: .DrBeg .DrAst .DrFin .DrEnd >From what I can understand, that means that the essential macros were >already available. While .DrSet would have been helpful, I can see in >block zero of LPX.SYS that there is a full set (pardon the pun) of SET >options and the LP.MAC file just has them hard coded in place. I'm sorry, I forgot about the macros you mention -- those were there from the start (at least once the handler/monitor separation occurred), but the additional ones as you mention were not added until a later release... Until then, things like the SET tables were hard-coded into the module. >The key question I am wondering about is IF the ISR interaction between >the operating system and the device driver that is present in V4.0 of >RT-11 when the LSX.SYS device driver is LOADed and both pair >of CSR/VECTOR are activated (so that XON/XOFF can be allowed >for a serial printer) is also present in V3.0 of RT-11? I do not want to >assume that just because V4.0 allowed two CSR/VECTOR pairs to >be active and a device driver such as LSX.SYS to have two .DrAst >entry points that V3.0 of RT-11 also allows the same thing. I don't think dual vector support is in V3,0 of RT. I'm not absolutely sure, but I can't think of any handlers which used that. I'm sure it would be possible to do using the handler install code, but I also don't remember for which version that support was added. Then again, I do remember a KB handler making the rounds way back when... it must have used two vectors, but I don't know how it did it. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sun Feb 13 11:38:56 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: TI Professional Computer In-Reply-To: <20000213164502.22523.qmail@hotmail.com>; from netsurfer_x1@hotmail.com on Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 04:45:02PM +0000 References: <20000213164502.22523.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <20000213123856.A9154@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Feb 13, 2000 at 04:45:02PM +0000, David Vohs wrote: > The TI-PC was released in 1984 not too long after the world famous TI-99/4A > rolled over & died. The machine itself is a partial IBM-PC clone, but is not > completely compatible as it uses a proprietary disk format (reminds me of an > AT&T PC 6300/6400), & it's own version of DOS (TI-DOS, to be exact). The > machine reportedly had excellent graphics hardware (for the day, anyway), & > one of the best early PC keyboards anywhere. Did I imagine this or did TI have some kind of speech synthesizer doodad for this machine? I have a (possibly false) memory of seeing a TI-PC (the P stands for "professional", not "personal", right?) at a computer show (probably another one of those Hynes Auditorium things) back when it was a current product, and the folks running the booth were very proud of the fact that the thing was talking, I remember noticing that the speech had a discernable Texan accent and thinking "well that figures!" So that suggests it wasn't the usual Votrax SC01 stuff that was *everywhere* back then. John Wilson D Bit From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Feb 13 12:00:25 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: More interesting TK50 fun In-Reply-To: "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" "Re: More interesting TK50 fun" (Feb 13, 8:46) References: Message-ID: <10002131800.ZM16188@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 13, 8:46, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > On Sat, 12 Feb 2000, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > 1) Does the Red Light/Button on the right hand side in the "out" position > > mean "unload" ? Yes, but watch the LEDS. > Off means unlocked (you can lift the handle and remove the tape) > Off also means no power (you can't lift the handle and remove the tape) > On steady means tape loaded > Flashing means rewinding or unloading or error (Grrrr) > > > 2) When does the green light come on (except on power up when it is > > unloaded.) ? > > When the tape is loaded and ready You really need to look at both LEDs together. Here's the table from the User's Guide: Green Red Drive state -------------------------------------------------------------------- Off Off power off Off On 1. After power-on, this condition occurs for 5-15s while the drive is initializing. (Red goes off and green comes on after initialization.) 2. Indicates handle is up, following cartridge insertion. 3. Indicates tape has almost completeed rewinding, and is approaching the unload point. Red stays on during this sequence (8-10s). On Off OK to lift handle NOTE: Only under this condition is it safe to lift the handle. Under any other condition, lifting the handle may damage the unit or cause a fault. On On Tape is at BOT and drive ready to accept system commands. Flash On Indicates tape motion during normal system operation. Flash Flash Tape is rewinding to BOT. Flash Fast Indicates a fault condition. See Chapter 5, Solving Flash Problems. Pushing the LOAD/UNLOAD switch FOUR times may clear the fault. Chapter 5 suggests trying the four-presses two or three times. If that doesn't work, power off and then on (it says to do this only once, actually). If that doesn't work, it suggests calling your system administrator, Field Service, or removing the drive to send to a Service Centre. Not very informative or helpful, really. The only chapter that's shorter is Chapter 4, "Uses For The TK50". The load sequence is: If the power is off, make sure the LOAD/UNLOAD button is in the OUT (unload) position, and power up the drive. Let the drive initialise: the red LED should be on for between 5 and 15 seconds, and then the green LED comes on and the red one goes off. When the green LED is on and the red is off, lift the handle. "Caution: never lift the handle if the red LED is on or blinking." "Smoothly and completely insert the cartridge." [the manual doesn't say where, but I'd be tempted to find the nearest convenient member of the TK50 design team, and ask them to turn round...] When it locks in place, the red LED should go on and the green LED off. Lower the handle. After several seconds, the green LED should come on steady, and the red LED should go off. At this point, it's safe to operate the handle again to remove the cartridge, or continue to load the tape. Push in the LOAD/UNLOAD switch (the LOAD position is IN). The tape shuold go through the load process, taking 5-8 seconds. Both LEDs come on steady when it reaches BOT. To unload a cartridge: Set the LOAD/UNLOAD switch to OUT (UNLOAD position). If the tape isn't already at BOT, both LEDs will flash *slowly* while it rewinds. If the tape was very cose to BOT, you might not see them flash. The red LED comes on while the tape is unloading from BOT. This should take 8-10 seconds, then the red LED should go off and the green should come on. When the red LED is off and the green is on, left the handle, which partially ejects the cartridge. ----- The manual has some diagrams showing how the tape leader in the cartridge should look, and how the take-up leader in the drive should be. From what you wrote, I don't think you have any problems here, but for the sake of completeness... I'm not going to attempt ASCII art for this, and I'm afraid I can't get at a scanner ATM, so I'll try to describe them: Cartridge: Looking at it right-side-up, with the edge with the door towards you and the hinge at the right, you should be able to release the door lock by lifting up the release. Swing open the door; you should see the leader on the left, with *nearly* all of the eye in the leader showing. Drive: With the handle down, looking into the cartridge slot, you should see the take-up leader, with its notch roughly in the middle of the slot. To the left of that notch, the take-up leader should be a little less than 1/2" wide; to the right of the notch it narrows to a fraction of that (maybe an 1/8"), with a sort of fat arrow-head on the end. A little hook on an arm behind the takeup leader (called the buckling link) should be hooked through the notch. Just at the back of the hook, on the buckling link, are a couple of vertical pins which prevent the takeup leader sliding too far back up the buckling link. The narrow part of the takeup leader should all be in front of the link, and straight; it should not be displaced above the link, nor tangled in it, nor unhooked. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 13 13:14:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds Message-ID: <200002131914.OAA04898@world.std.com> "Re: IC question and hamfest finds" (Feb 13, 14:14) References: <200002131914.OAA04898@world.std.com> Message-ID: <10002132056.ZM16293@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 13, 14:14, Allison J Parent wrote: > > The only amd I could find was 9517 (DMA controller like 8237). The 92xx > series has memories so it could be ram or prom type device. > > > Very likely. AMD used 91xx for RAM, 92xx for mask ROM (with a couple of exceptions), and 97xx for EPROM. AM9217 is an NMOS 2048 x 8-bit ROM; A is the speed (550ns), P means 24-pin plastic, C means commercial temperature range (0-70 Celcius). Pinout is the same as an 8316, 2716 compatible, but the chip selects on pins 18,20,21 can be specified either active-high or active-low. The AM9217 was superceded in the late 70's by the AM9218. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 13 13:27:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000212214244.3e471338@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 12, 0 09:42:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 261 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000213/e866325b/attachment-0001.ksh From manney at hmcltd.net Sun Feb 13 15:11:22 2000 From: manney at hmcltd.net (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: Anyone have Apple IIGS software? Message-ID: <001101bf7666$e212fc20$43e3cfd8@fujitsu-c350> Anyone have Apple IIGS software cheaply? Thanks P Manney From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 13 16:31:56 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <200002130358.TAA30765@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000213173156.20ffabc8@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:58 PM 2/12/00 -0800, Al wrote: >""AMD AM9217APC". I can't find a reference to them, does anyone know >what they are?" > >2k x 8 static RAMs. Are they 24 pin? Yes. Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 13 16:54:36 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <200002131914.OAA04898@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000213175436.306f66d0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:14 PM 2/13/00 -0500, Allison wrote: > >Describe it more. What the Cosmac board? Let's see, It's 8 1/4" high x 9" deep. It has an edge connector with about 88 contacts with what looks like .156" spacing. There are four 1/2 AA size batteries near the top. Probably Nicads. They're growing white fuzz. The CPU is near the edge connector and is a RCA CDP 1802CE. It has the number 936 below the CDP number. Below it are three ZIF sockets, two of them have 2516 EPROMs in them. To the left of the CPU are two AMI 8039 22 pin ICs. All the other ICs are SSI. On the bottom edge it says "TRANSYT CORP. CPU T-3020". The end opposite the edge connector has a metal plate at a right angle to the card. So it's obviously made to slide into something. The metal plate is 1" wide x 9 7/8" tall. It has a small switch on it that's marked battery test and there's a LED above it. The bottom edge of the plate says "CPU" and there is a captive screw and the top and bottom of the plate. Any idea what it's out of? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 13 17:04:51 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <10002132056.ZM16293@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200002131914.OAA04898@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000213180451.430fa386@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:56 PM 2/13/00 GMT, Pete wrote: > >AMD used 91xx for RAM, 92xx for mask ROM (with a couple of exceptions), and >97xx for EPROM. AM9217 is an NMOS 2048 x 8-bit ROM; A is the speed >(550ns), P means 24-pin plastic, C means commercial temperature range (0-70 >Celcius). Pinout is the same as an 8316, 2716 compatible, but the chip >selects on pins 18,20,21 can be specified either active-high or active-low. > The AM9217 was superceded in the late 70's by the AM9218. Thanks for the info Pete. Too bad AMD didn't put that in their IC website. Joe From aek at spies.com Sun Feb 13 16:34:59 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds Message-ID: <200002132234.OAA09852@spies.com> ">""AMD AM9217APC". I can't find a reference to them, does anyone know >what they are?" > >2k x 8 static RAMs. Are they 24 pin? Yes. " Sorry about that. Upper left corner of page 1186 of the 1979 IC Master says "ROM" not "RAM" gee... wonder what the bits in the ROMs were for? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Feb 13 16:53:00 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: Anyone have Apple IIGS software? In-Reply-To: <001101bf7666$e212fc20$43e3cfd8@fujitsu-c350> Message-ID: >Anyone have Apple IIGS software cheaply? >From the Apple II FAQ (hint hint, look for the faq before asking the q) Here is a listing of major Apple II game archive sites: Apple Cabi.net #1 archive of IIgs games; mainly in ShrinkIt files ACN Florida ftp://24.96.48.134:6502/ ACN Tarnover ftp://tarnover.dyndns.org/cabi/ Apple IIgs Gaming Memory Fairway- #1 archive of out-of-print commercial IIgs games in emulator .2mg form (some also in ShrinkIt form); includes brief overview for each selection http://www.inwards.com/~fairway/ Apple2 Caltech- large collection of II/IIgs games ftp://apple2.caltech.edu/pub/apple2/ Asimov- #1 archive of Apple II 8-bit games and game utilities in emulator DSK and file formats ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/ French software at ... ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/french_software/ Asimov Mirrors- sites which mirror Asimov Georgia Mirror ftp://mirror.apple.asimov.net ACN Florida ftp://24.96.48.134:6502/Asimov_Archives/ ACN Tarnover ftp://tarnover.dyndns.org/asimov/ Ground- the largest Apple II archive; maintains many II/IIgs games ftp://ground.ecn.uiowa.edu/apple2/ The Vault- archive of Apple II games in emulator disk image form http://www.classicgaming.com/vault/appleiiroms-AM.shtml Uni-kl.de Apple2 U. Kaiserslautern- II/IIgs games in emulator and .shk form ftp://ftp.uni-kl.de/pub/apple2/ XGS Archives- extensive archive of out-of-print commercial IIgs games in emulator .2mg form; offers single-list access with brief comments and file performance info. http://www.inwards.com/xgs/archives.html Other important Apple II game sites are ... Apple Emulator's Wargame Pages- indexes of A2 wargames with screen pics and download links for disk images http://home.earthlink.net/~evin1/a2war/ Apple2 U. Michagan- A2 archive http://www.umich.edu/~archive/apple2/ AV Systems- sells game, education, utility software http://members.xoom.com/AV_Systems/ B&R Computing- sells used II/IIgs commercial games http://hometown.aol.com/rrbp/Home.html From ernestls at home.com Sun Feb 13 17:03:32 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bf7676$8d4fd0e0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> You can plug other old monitors into it if you get an adapter, however there are a couple of things that you should know first. The monochrome monitor does get it's power from the video card but if you open the case, and unplug the little orange/black power plug off of the video card, you can then plug the AT&T color monitor into it. If you don't unplug the video power plug first, you will melt your color monitor. If you do a search for AT&T 6300 on altavista, you'll get a bunch of pin maps for the 6300 video and keyboard plugs. Also, if anyone is interested, I have a bunch of 6300 software, including the hard to find keyboard mouse drivers. I also have UNIX System 5 release 2 for the 6300+. I can make copies for you. Does anyone else have any unusual 6300 software -I have a little ATT product catalog which lists tons and tons of 6300 series software and add on parts. Ernest -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 11:27 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. > picking it up. Also the 6300s need special monitors with 15 (or 25?) pin > connectors. IIRC, it's a DB25 connector, and it carries the (12V) power for the monochrome monitor, so plugging anything else into the monitor socket is a very bad idea. -tony From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sun Feb 13 17:11:25 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Feb 13, 2000 07:27:13 pm" Message-ID: <200002132311.SAA42905@bg-tc-ppp133.monmouth.com> > > picking it up. Also the 6300s need special monitors with 15 (or 25?) pin > > connectors. > > IIRC, it's a DB25 connector, and it carries the (12V) power for the > monochrome monitor, so plugging anything else into the monitor socket is > a very bad idea. > > -tony The machine can also drive a color monitor in 640x400 mode -- so a number of multisync monitors can be used with it including the MultisyncII which was oem'd by AT&T as the 319 (the only thing you need is an adapter cable). I've got a VDC750 which will drive one of those 25 pin monitors as a VGA/EGA as well. The VGA (I think) was a modified Western Digital (Paradise) card. (nice at the time)... Bill From ernestls at home.com Sun Feb 13 17:09:48 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: Anyone have Apple IIGS software? In-Reply-To: <001101bf7666$e212fc20$43e3cfd8@fujitsu-c350> Message-ID: <000101bf7677$6c973d60$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> You should go to the comp.sys.apple2 newsgroup -those folks will bury you in software. Also, the faq for that newsgroup will tell you how to set up a serial transfer line so that you can move files that you download from the net to your IIgs. It's very easy, and loads of fun. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of PG Manney Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 1:11 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Anyone have Apple IIGS software? Anyone have Apple IIGS software cheaply? Thanks P Manney From ernestls at home.com Sun Feb 13 17:37:57 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300/Xerox 6400 In-Reply-To: <000001bf7676$8d4fd0e0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> Message-ID: <000201bf767b$5c338b00$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> Xerox licensed the 6300 system from AT&T, repainted it, and called it the 6400. The machines are mostly identical inside and out, except for the coloring. The Xerox is a little newer. I know of a place, here in Seattle, that has lots of 6300 monitors and keyboards for very cheap so if anyone buys the 6300 at San Antonio, I can gather up the extra parts that you would need and ship them to you for cost plus shipping -maybe $30 to $40 total, and as I said before, I also have a the ATT MSDOS, and other software so that's available also. I even have an extra mouse that I could sell, for the right price. The 6300 is a funky machine but you won't see to many of them around in working condition. Everything about them is proprietary, but you can add 8 bit ISA cards. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ernest Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 3:04 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. You can plug other old monitors into it if you get an adapter, however there are a couple of things that you should know first. The monochrome monitor does get it's power from the video card but if you open the case, and unplug the little orange/black power plug off of the video card, you can then plug the AT&T color monitor into it. If you don't unplug the video power plug first, you will melt your color monitor. If you do a search for AT&T 6300 on altavista, you'll get a bunch of pin maps for the 6300 video and keyboard plugs. Also, if anyone is interested, I have a bunch of 6300 software, including the hard to find keyboard mouse drivers. I also have UNIX System 5 release 2 for the 6300+. I can make copies for you. Does anyone else have any unusual 6300 software -I have a little ATT product catalog which lists tons and tons of 6300 series software and add on parts. Ernest -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 11:27 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. > picking it up. Also the 6300s need special monitors with 15 (or 25?) pin > connectors. IIRC, it's a DB25 connector, and it carries the (12V) power for the monochrome monitor, so plugging anything else into the monitor socket is a very bad idea. -tony From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 13 18:49:34 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: OT: Faber Castell Slide Rule question In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000213173156.20ffabc8@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <200002130358.TAA30765@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000213194934.56c78bb4@mailhost.intellistar.net> I know that there are several slide rule collectors on this list. But is there anyone here that is *VERY* knowlegdeable about the Faber Castell slide rules? I found a very strange one that I'd like some help in identifying. It's completely different from the descriptions of Faber Castell models in general and it has no model name or model number on it. Contact me directly and I'll send you a description. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 13 18:53:01 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <200002132234.OAA09852@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000213195301.49bfa5e4@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:34 PM 2/13/00 -0800, Al wrote: >">""AMD AM9217APC". I can't find a reference to them, does anyone know >>what they are?" >> >>2k x 8 static RAMs. Are they 24 pin? > > Yes. >" > >Sorry about that. Upper left corner of page 1186 of the 1979 IC >Master says "ROM" not "RAM" > >gee... wonder what the bits in the ROMs were for? I have no idea but I doubt I have any use for them so I guess they and the IC will go to that big bit bucket in the sky ^H^H^H er, ah, China. Joe > From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 13 19:19:54 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds Message-ID: <200002140119.UAA26619@world.std.com> < What the Cosmac board? Let's see, It's 8 1/4" high x 9" deep. It has a Message-ID: I thought the Olivetti was Xerox's 6060? It's an elegantly beautiful machine, with the styling improved over the 6300, but all minor changes. I have only seen two myself, a stripped carcass, and an almost mint set with software that we were given. On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Ernest wrote: > Xerox licensed the 6300 system from AT&T, repainted it, and called it the > 6400. The machines are mostly identical inside and out, except for the > coloring. The Xerox is a little newer. > > I know of a place, here in Seattle, that has lots of 6300 monitors and > keyboards for very cheap so if anyone buys the 6300 at San Antonio, I can > gather up the extra parts that you would need and ship them to you for cost > plus shipping -maybe $30 to $40 total, and as I said before, I also have a > the ATT MSDOS, and other software so that's available also. I even have an > extra mouse that I could sell, for the right price. > > The 6300 is a funky machine but you won't see to many of them around in > working condition. Everything about them is proprietary, but you can add 8 > bit ISA cards. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ernest > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 3:04 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. > > > You can plug other old monitors into it if you get an adapter, however there > are a couple of things that you should know first. > > The monochrome monitor does get it's power from the video card but if you > open the case, and unplug the little orange/black power plug off of the > video card, you can then plug the AT&T color monitor into it. If you don't > unplug the video power plug first, you will melt your color monitor. If you > do a search for AT&T 6300 on altavista, you'll get a bunch of pin maps for > the 6300 video and keyboard plugs. > > Also, if anyone is interested, I have a bunch of 6300 software, including > the hard to find keyboard mouse drivers. I also have UNIX System 5 release 2 > for the 6300+. I can make copies for you. Does anyone else have any unusual > 6300 software -I have a little ATT product catalog which lists tons and tons > of 6300 series software and add on parts. > > Ernest > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 11:27 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. > > > > picking it up. Also the 6300s need special monitors with 15 (or 25?) pin > > connectors. > > IIRC, it's a DB25 connector, and it carries the (12V) power for the > monochrome monitor, so plugging anything else into the monitor socket is > a very bad idea. > > -tony > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From dogas at leading.net Sun Feb 13 19:59:43 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds Message-ID: <01bf768f$29b398a0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> -----Original Message----- From: Joe > ... Mike Haas came down from jacksonville and we went to the first day of >the Orlando hamfest. Mike scored big time! No less than 6 different TRS >computers. Several are like new and in their original boxs with all the >books. He also bought several other interesting toys! > It was fun! A boxed coco2 and mc-10, and letsee... a model 4, a model 1 L1, a model 1 L2, a Holmes Expansion Interface, 2 disks, a light pen, and ;) the plug&power controller with docs and cassette software. Non Radioshack stuff included a prettily outfitted Atari Portfolio, a Covox voice master again for the atari I hope, an Epson hx-20, and ;))) an Applied Microsystems diagnostic cpu emulator with a 6809 pod and documentation. I drove back down there later Sunday and didn't see anything more than I had on Friday, and am in some respects glad. This haul will take awile to assimilate.... Cheers! - Mike: dogas@leading.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 13 18:25:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: <000001bf7676$8d4fd0e0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> from "Ernest" at Feb 13, 0 03:03:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 908 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000214/c7fa2dc8/attachment-0001.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 13 21:51:30 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: IC question and hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <01bf768f$29b398a0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000213225130.2117ad64@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:59 PM 2/13/00 -0500, Mike, wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe > >> ... Mike Haas came down from jacksonville and we went to the first day of >>the Orlando hamfest. Mike scored big time! No less than 6 different TRS >>computers. Several are like new and in their original boxs with all the >>books. He also bought several other interesting toys! >> > >It was fun! A boxed coco2 and mc-10, and letsee... a model 4, a model 1 >L1, a model 1 L2, a Holmes Expansion Interface, 2 disks, a light pen, and ;) >the plug&power controller with docs and cassette software. Non Radioshack >stuff included a prettily outfitted Atari Portfolio, a Covox voice master >again for the atari I hope, an Epson hx-20, and ;))) an Applied Microsystems >diagnostic cpu emulator with a 6809 pod and documentation. > >I drove back down there later Sunday and didn't see anything more than I had >on Friday, and am in some respects glad. This haul will take awile to >assimilate.... > > Mike, You left out the boxed RS cassette drive. Where were you Sunday? I never saw you. You must have missing the HTI 68030 emulator/development setup and the two Dec 3000s. The same guy has FIVE SGIs that he wants to get rid of. I'M working on that! The guy that I told you about that has the paper tape reader and punch was there. I would have introduced you if I had seen you. You also forgot to stop and get that PDP out of my truck. I got a big set of National Semiconductor data books today. Including the ones for the 2900 bit slice CPUs. Also found ANOTHER HP 3468 HP-IL digital multimeter and a very strange Faber Castell slide rule. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 13 21:54:39 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: References: <000001bf7676$8d4fd0e0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000213225439.210f9f76@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:25 AM 2/14/00 +0000, someone wrote: > >[AT&T6300] >> The monochrome monitor does get it's power from the video card but if you >> open the case, and unplug the little orange/black power plug off of the >> video card, you can then plug the AT&T color monitor into it. If you don't >> unplug the video power plug first, you will melt your color monitor. If you No, you're wrong. Three of my close friends bought the 6300s when they were new and one of them had the color monitor. You only had to unplug the monochrome monitor and plug in the color one. NO other changes were needed. Joe From ernestls at home.com Sun Feb 13 22:37:49 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300/Xerox 6400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201bf76a5$3fb6f6e0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> Here is the pin out for the 25pin video cable on the monitor. Connector: D25 1. horizontal sync 2. ID0 (monitor id) 3. vertical sync 4. red 5. green 6. blue 8. nothing 9. nothing 10. ID1 11. Mode0 12. nothing 13. -Degauss 14-21. gnd 22. nothing 23. nothing 24,25. +15V for a monochrome monitor ID0 and ID1 are open for color, ID0 is 0, and ID1 is 1, probably 5V, not 15v I have eight different 6300s, and in every case, the monochrome systems have the power connector plugged into the video card, and the color systems have this connector unplugged. Also, I plugged a color monitor into one of the systems using monochrome, plugged the power cord into the wall, turned on the monitor, then the system and poof, the color monitor popped and went out. Maybe it was a coincidence but now, I unplug that power connector to the video card when I want to use a color monitor. Looking at the pin map above, it looks like pins 24 and 25 are the hot ones, which might explain why my color monitor popped but I'm not an electrician, so I'm not sure. There are two other power wires that plug into the bus, where it connects to the motherboard and video card, so I assume that is where the rest of the system gets it's power. Olivetti may have licensed the 6060 from Xerox but the Xerox 6400 is a knockoff of the 6300, which is a knockoff of the Olivetti M24 (?) -the boards inside even say Olivetti on both the 6300 and 6400. These two systems are based on what I believe is the Olivetti M24 (1984.)To tell you the truth, I know that Olivetti produced this system for both AT&T, and Xerox but I'm not sure who designed it. http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/oliv_m24.html http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/att-6300.html Ernest -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Merle K. Peirce Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 5:58 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: AT&T 6300/Xerox 6400 I thought the Olivetti was Xerox's 6060? It's an elegantly beautiful machine, with the styling improved over the 6300, but all minor changes. I have only seen two myself, a stripped carcass, and an almost mint set with software that we were given. On Sun, 13 Feb 2000, Ernest wrote: > Xerox licensed the 6300 system from AT&T, repainted it, and called it the > 6400. The machines are mostly identical inside and out, except for the > coloring. The Xerox is a little newer. > > I know of a place, here in Seattle, that has lots of 6300 monitors and > keyboards for very cheap so if anyone buys the 6300 at San Antonio, I can > gather up the extra parts that you would need and ship them to you for cost > plus shipping -maybe $30 to $40 total, and as I said before, I also have a > the ATT MSDOS, and other software so that's available also. I even have an > extra mouse that I could sell, for the right price. > > The 6300 is a funky machine but you won't see to many of them around in > working condition. Everything about them is proprietary, but you can add 8 > bit ISA cards. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ernest > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 3:04 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. > > > You can plug other old monitors into it if you get an adapter, however there > are a couple of things that you should know first. > > The monochrome monitor does get it's power from the video card but if you > open the case, and unplug the little orange/black power plug off of the > video card, you can then plug the AT&T color monitor into it. If you don't > unplug the video power plug first, you will melt your color monitor. If you > do a search for AT&T 6300 on altavista, you'll get a bunch of pin maps for > the 6300 video and keyboard plugs. > > Also, if anyone is interested, I have a bunch of 6300 software, including > the hard to find keyboard mouse drivers. I also have UNIX System 5 release 2 > for the 6300+. I can make copies for you. Does anyone else have any unusual > 6300 software -I have a little ATT product catalog which lists tons and tons > of 6300 series software and add on parts. > > Ernest > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 11:27 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. > > > > picking it up. Also the 6300s need special monitors with 15 (or 25?) pin > > connectors. > > IIRC, it's a DB25 connector, and it carries the (12V) power for the > monochrome monitor, so plugging anything else into the monitor socket is > a very bad idea. > > -tony > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sun Feb 13 22:44:17 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: [CC] Looking for a 68k Macintosh software archive. In-Reply-To: <20000212223018.58549.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/Printing/StyleWriter/ On Sat, 12 Feb 2000, David Vohs wrote: > Can anybody direct me to one (or a few) good websites or ftp boards that > have software for 68k-based Macs (one that has Smooth Talker, & a > Stylewriter II driver would be nice). > ____________________________________________________________ > David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. > > Computer Collection: > > "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, Double FDD, GeoRam 512, Okimate 20. > "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. > "Delorean": TI-99/4A. > "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. > ____________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From ernestls at home.com Sun Feb 13 22:44:28 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000213225439.210f9f76@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000301bf76a6$2d296700$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> Check my posting on the ATT 6300/Xerox 6400. It shows a pin map of the video cable for the monitor. I'm not an electrician but it looks like pins 24 and 25 are the hot ones, at least on the card for sure. I've based the advice on my own experience, which could be pure coincidence but now, I unplug the power to the video card when I use a color monitor. I have collected eight of the 6300s, and in each case, the color monitors have the power connector unplugged at the video card. Maybe that was coincidence too. Ernest -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2000 7:55 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Available in San Antonio, TX, moderately boring stuff. At 12:25 AM 2/14/00 +0000, someone wrote: > >[AT&T6300] >> The monochrome monitor does get it's power from the video card but if you >> open the case, and unplug the little orange/black power plug off of the >> video card, you can then plug the AT&T color monitor into it. If you don't >> unplug the video power plug first, you will melt your color monitor. If you No, you're wrong. Three of my close friends bought the 6300s when they were new and one of them had the color monitor. You only had to unplug the monochrome monitor and plug in the color one. NO other changes were needed. Joe From transit at primenet.com Sun Feb 13 23:19:52 2000 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: AT&T Sequent. . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On another list, a public library is considering disposing of the following: "AT&T Sequent, WYSE terminals, router, bridges, hubs, printers, UPS etc" and is interested in trying to determine the "value" of this equipment. They're asking for a "bluebook" showing the values of old computers and such (I don't think such a beast exists, but. .. ) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Feb 14 03:05:31 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: AT&T Sequent. . . Message-ID: In a message dated 2/13/2000 9:26:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, transit@primenet.com writes: > er list, a public library is considering disposing of the > following: "AT&T Sequent, WYSE terminals, router, bridges, hubs, printers, > UPS , etc." and is interested in trying to determine the "value" of this > equipment. They're asking for a "bluebook" showing the values of old > computers and such (I don't think such a beast exists, but. .. ) > Actually there is a computer blue book. It might cover the Wyse terminals but it is more PC based. It has some mini stuff but I doubt the Sequent, routers, bridges UPS etc. Pawn shops use it to evaluate what they will loan on equipment. They are published by Orion Research Corp. in Durango Colorado. It is published yearly and cost about $150. It is actually blue colored. I could help evaluate it if they want to contact me off list. I suspect they would be shocked at the actual valuation. Of course it depends on the age of the equipment. It might be a candidate for a rescue though. Is anyone on the list running a Sequent. Paxton From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Feb 14 04:24:47 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: AT&T Sequent. . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On another list, a public library is considering disposing of the >following: "AT&T Sequent, WYSE terminals, router, bridges, hubs, printers, >UPS etc" and is interested in trying to determine the "value" of this >equipment. They're asking for a "bluebook" showing the values of old >computers and such (I don't think such a beast exists, but. .. ) A bit ridiculous isn't it, a LIBRARY requiring some book it apparently can't find or identify. Between 3 and 7 cents per pound isn't a bad guess though. Anything better would depend on location and specifics. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Feb 14 08:09:56 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: AT&T Sequent. . . In-Reply-To: from "Innfogra@aol.com" at "Feb 14, 2000 04:05:31 am" Message-ID: <200002141409.JAA45493@bg-tc-ppp738.monmouth.com> > In a message dated 2/13/2000 9:26:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, > transit@primenet.com writes: > > > Actually there is a computer blue book. It might cover the Wyse terminals > but it is more PC based. It has some mini stuff but I doubt the Sequent, > routers, bridges UPS etc. Pawn shops use it to evaluate what they will loan > on equipment. They are published by Orion Research Corp. in Durango > Colorado. It is published yearly and cost about $150. It is actually blue > colored. Interesting... > > It might be a candidate for a rescue though. Is anyone on the list running a > Sequent. Since AT&T never made or resold Sequent and resold Pyramid systems in competition to Sequent I'm kind of intrigued. AT&T called them System 7000's (Series 1, 2 or 3) Pyramid's equivalents were the MIS-2, MIS-4 or MIS-10 models for the 7000 Series 1, MIS-2T, MIS-4T or MIS-10T for the Series 2 and the Series 3 were MIS-S models (MIPS R3000 cpu's instead of Pyramid's RISC designs). > > Paxton > > I used to teach for Pyramid's ed services and would be happy to be of some service if this is actually a Pyramid. Bill From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Feb 14 08:52:50 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: AT&T Sequent. . . Message-ID: <000214095250.25601b37@trailing-edge.com> > On another list, a public library is considering disposing of the > following: "AT&T Sequent, WYSE terminals, router, bridges, hubs, printers, > UPS etc" and is interested in trying to determine the "value" of this > equipment. They're asking for a "bluebook" showing the values of old > computers and such (I don't think such a beast exists, but. .. ) More realistic than any single "bluebook" would be to call up dealers in such equipment and see what they're willing to offer. The classic place to begin such a search is in a long-standing minicomputer rag called _Processor_. They're mostly PC-clone ads these days, but they still have a few pages dedicated to DEC and Data General equipment, and there are certainly many outfits in there that'll be interested in quality (i.e. not PC-clone) terminals, network equipment, printers, etc. See http://www.processor.com/ for their on-line presence. It's expanding, though it's still not nearly as good as the actual printed edition. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Feb 14 11:01:57 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: Anyone Out There With a Sun 4/110? Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000214090157.0086bbd0@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: The power supply in my Sun 4/110 is acting up. The problem appears to be with the line filter just ahead of the power supply proper. Anyone else have a 4/110 on the list? I'd like to correspond to try to fix the problem. Thanks, Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 14 12:28:46 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300/Xerox 6400 In-Reply-To: <000201bf76a5$3fb6f6e0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> from "Ernest" at Feb 13, 0 08:37:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2214 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000214/0ef3eccd/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 14 12:48:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: Anyone Out There With a Sun 4/110? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000214090157.0086bbd0@mail.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Feb 14, 0 09:01:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 535 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000214/857a5870/attachment-0001.ksh From transit at primenet.com Mon Feb 14 13:59:29 2000 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: Hamfests, Amiga Drives (was: Re: dumpster diving and other sources , of goodies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Hello, ladies and gents out there > > I have found good stuff in the dollar bin at Computer Renaissance: Where is "Computer Renaissance"? (I'm guessing it's some sort of store. .. ) > And I also recommend going to hamfests -- amateur radio fleamarkets. Quite > a few guys get this stuff and try to peddle it for a couple bucks. My > favorite line is -- How badly do you want to take this boatanchor home?? I often go to the TRW hamfest in Redondo Beach, CA. (http://linex-w6trw.sp.trw.com/w6trw/swapmeet/swap.htm). Generally lots of good stuff, although it's been quiet on the 8-bit front as of late (lots of old Mac and PC stuff, though). And there's always the same old guys selling the same old radio for the same old price, month after month. . . > > At one hamfest I found 19 used DSDD 3.5" drives for $30. These are the > standard Amiga drive, but useless anywhere else. Was that $30 for the *lot*? Geez, I've seen these drives go for $30 *each*. . . From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 14 14:50:05 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: Hamfests, Amiga Drives (was: Re: dumpster diving and other sources , of goodies In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Feb 14, 0 11:59:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1066 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000214/f51b6b2b/attachment-0001.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 17:19:59 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: Hamfests, Amiga Drives (was: Re: dumpster diving and other sources , of goodies Message-ID: <20000214231959.13414.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Charles P. Hobbs" wrote: > > On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > > At one hamfest I found 19 used DSDD 3.5" drives for $30. These are the > > standard Amiga drive, but useless anywhere else. > > Was that $30 for the *lot*? Geez, I've seen these drives go for $30 > *each*. . . That _is_ a good price if it was for the lot. If anyone is looking for a similar item, I have a box of Sony MP-F11W-72 drives, 720K DSDD 3.5" floppies for various Tandy boxes, including the Tandy 1000. One catch: they don't have a power connector. They draw power over the 34-pin data cable. Typically, floppies have grounds on the odd pins; this one scopes out thusly... 1 NC (uninstalled jumper at RJ1 (GND) and R1 (?)) 3 NC (uninstalled jumper at RJ3 (GND)) (FAQ claims +5VDC) 5-11 +5VDC 13-19 GND 29,31 NC (uninstalled jumper at RJ7 (GND)) (FAQ claims +12VDC) 33 NC (FAQ claims +12VDC) (cf. the Tandy 1000 FAQ - http://www.oldskool.org/~tvdog/1kfaq.html#II.C ) There is a space for a power connector, but it is not installed. If you feel like migrating a connector from a dead floppy, it's doable, but for non-Tandy use, a modified cable might be the better solution. I got these from the Dayton Hamfest in a "you want one, you take the box" deal from the local Radio Shack guys that used to have a great booth in the white tent in the corner of the flea market. I will never use more than one or two of them. Now's your chance to stock up on bizarre Tandy drives. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From jallain at databaseamerica.com Mon Feb 14 17:52:45 2000 From: jallain at databaseamerica.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: (SOT) IBM 730T and PCMCIA hard drives In-Reply-To: <20000210220955.C29331@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <000101bf7746$97edbfa0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Shawn T. Rutledge said: Re: 730T > Since there is no BIOS setup could I get it to boot > from a different sized drive.... Quick answer: I picked a random Swapmeet PCM drive (160MBy) and the 730T recognized it right away. I formatted and loaded it in a friends Modern Laptop. There is a BIOS Set-Up for the 730T. Just depress <> penswitch on the frame for 5Sec while booting. BIOS and selftest there are all icon based. 730T is >5years old and officially de-supported by the manufacturer so it ?is? on-Topic. John A. From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon Feb 14 18:26:52 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: (SOT) IBM 730T and PCMCIA hard drives In-Reply-To: <000101bf7746$97edbfa0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com>; from John Allain on Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 06:52:45PM -0500 References: <20000210220955.C29331@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <000101bf7746$97edbfa0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <20000214172652.A18765@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 06:52:45PM -0500, John Allain wrote: > Shawn T. Rutledge said: > Re: 730T > > Since there is no BIOS setup could I get it to boot > > from a different sized drive.... > > Quick answer: > I picked a random Swapmeet PCM drive (160MBy) and > the 730T recognized it right away. I formatted and Good. > loaded it in a friends Modern Laptop. There is a What OS was running on the Modern Laptop? > BIOS Set-Up for the 730T. Just depress <> penswitch > on the frame for 5Sec while booting. BIOS and selftest Now there's some useful info, thanks. > there are all icon based. 730T is >5years old and officially > de-supported by the manufacturer so it ?is? on-Topic. Cool. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From marvin at rain.org Sun Feb 13 19:02:41 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: Hamfests, Amiga Drives (was: Re: dumpster diving and other sources , of goodies References: Message-ID: <38A75431.73BC4625@rain.org> "Charles P. Hobbs" wrote: > > I often go to the TRW hamfest in Redondo Beach, CA. > (http://linex-w6trw.sp.trw.com/w6trw/swapmeet/swap.htm). Generally lots of > good stuff, although it's been quiet on the 8-bit front as of late (lots > of old Mac and PC stuff, though). And there's always the same old guys > selling the same old radio for the same old price, month after month. . . Okay, why is it you haven't stopped by to say Hi :)??? John has two spots reserved, IIRC G22 and G24, and we are always looking to meet members of the list. We even head over to Coco's for lunch afterward to swap lies. There has almost always been a lot of interesting stuff there and my goal is to sell as much as I buy :). Stop by and say Hi!!! Just to remind everyone, it is the last Saturday of each month at the corner (essentially) of Aviation and Marine officially starting about 7:30 but actually starting about 6:00 AM in the sellers parking lot. From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Feb 14 20:22:40 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:42 2005 Subject: Anyone Out There With a Sun 4/110? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Feb 14, 2000 06:48:15 PM Message-ID: <200002150222.SAA25683@fraser.sfu.ca> > I don't have such a machine, but line filters are rarely complex, and > I've never seen one that has any really odd features. You're welcome to > e-mail me (or post to the list) describing the fault and why you think > the filter is the problem, and I'll see what I can think up. 120 VAC in and 0 V out. No internal fuses. Sealed unit, may no longer be available. It's an SRE brand, model F15352. About 2" cubic with a green (presumably) "power OK" LED, which doesn't come on anymore. I added 12 MB to the machine, I think that the additional current draw may have done it. The machine has had only 8 MB in it for 12 years. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Feb 14 21:13:45 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: Finally! Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000214191312.022f1620@mcmanis.com> I finally scored a working TD Systems Viking QTD SCSI controller for Q-Bus. --Chuck From rcini at msn.com Mon Feb 14 21:22:48 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: OT: HTML question Message-ID: <007b01bf7764$086169e0$6464a8c0@office1> Hello, all: I'm not too familiar with HTML, but I'm guessing that this question is e asy to answer. What's the code to open a new browser window when someone clicks on a li nk? I want a new window to open with the requested page as the open document . Thanks. Rich [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 15 03:04:10 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: Western Digital WD 1002S-SHD card ??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000215040410.3ebf8be2@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I visited a surplus dealer today and picked up an external hard drive case that he was throwing out. The case has a Seagate 225 drive in it with some kind of Western Digital interface card. The card has MFM connection on one end and a 50 pin header on the other. The header is connected to a cable that had a SCSI type plug on it. Does anyone know if the card is a SCSI to MFM interface or what? Joe From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Feb 14 22:24:24 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: Western Digital WD 1002S-SHD card ??? Message-ID: <200002150424.XAA14051@world.std.com> < I visited a surplus dealer today and picked up an external hard drive Does anyone know how to connect an ASR-33 Teletype to a DG Nova 2? Also, does anyone know the communications settings for the Nova 2? I have a ADM-3A Terminal, and according to a book that came with my Nova, my particular machine was host to one. Thanks, Owen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000214/caf2d269/attachment-0001.html From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Feb 14 23:37:42 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Question In-Reply-To: <001d01bf7770$f49c7500$4c703ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000214213742.00945ea0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 22:55 14-02-2000 -0600, you wrote: >>>> Does anyone know how to connect an ASR-33 Teletype to a DG Nova 2? Also, does <<<< Well, lessee here... I used to fix 33's, and 28's, and 35's, and most other machines in the 'Teletype' line before they went all electronic. Most 33's had a 20mA current-loop interface. Said interface was usually full-duplex: One loop for TX, the other for RX (four wires total), though this was not always the case. Some of the later models had an option for an RS232 interface, though it's been too many years since I've seen one to guess at its composition. I hope that helps. Unfortunately, I know nothing about the DG. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From blakeman at creative-net.net Mon Feb 14 12:08:43 2000 From: blakeman at creative-net.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: OT: HTML question Message-ID: <38a8ed6b.1697.0@creative-net.net> Not too sre as I don't memorize but there is acrapload of info and ideas up at http://www.htmlhelp.com that you might be interested in. Opening another window from that one huh? Sounds like you're building a porno site (grin) >Hello, all: > > I'm not too familiar with HTML, but I'm guessing that this question is e >asy to answer. > > What's the code to open a new browser window when someone clicks on a li >nk? I want a new window to open with the requested page as the open document >. > >Thanks. >Rich > >[ Rich Cini/WUGNET >[ ClubWin!/CW1 >[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >[ Collector of "classic" computers >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ ><================ reply separator =================> > > > > From donm at cts.com Tue Feb 15 00:19:46 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: Western Digital WD 1002S-SHD card ??? In-Reply-To: <200002150424.XAA14051@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Allison J Parent wrote: > > < I visited a surplus dealer today and picked up an external hard drive > > Well St225 is MFM so the card is either a host to MFM bridge or SCSI(SASI) > to MFM bridge. > > The real answer is a part number on the card like WD1002-HDO (host interface > number). Someone else may be able to confrm if the SHD is SASI or at that > time early SCSI. TheRef45A says that it is SASI to ST-412. - don > Allison > > From g at kurico.com Tue Feb 15 00:41:23 2000 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: OT: HTML question In-Reply-To: <38a8ed6b.1697.0@creative-net.net> Message-ID: > I'm not too familiar with HTML, but I'm guessing that this > question is easy to answer. > What's the code to open a new browser window when someone clicks > on a link? I want a new window to open with the requested page as the open > document just add TARGET="_blank" to your link. George From thomas.h.lindberg at se.abb.com Tue Feb 15 01:18:55 2000 From: thomas.h.lindberg at se.abb.com (thomas.h.lindberg@se.abb.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: DEC memory modules available Message-ID: <41256886.00282F00.00@smtp02.seinf.abb.se> HI, I found four DEC memory modules in a lab drawer the other day. No markings that make sense to me but possibly to someone else: On the PCB side 1: Side 1 50-20612-01 Rev A01 LPWR BE3-0 On side 1 in screen print: 27391 6868-3 (placed in the order: LPWR 27391 BE3-0 6868-3) On the PCB side 2: Side 2 There are nine memory chips on each side, type HM514100AS8, plus a 74F541D. 4 Mbits per chip? 8 Mbyte plus parity per module? Dimension 111.81 mm * 28.00 mm Available for freight (from Sweden) plus what the receiver feel thay are worth. Thomas From edick at idcomm.com Tue Feb 15 01:30:11 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: Western Digital WD 1002S-SHD card ??? Message-ID: <000e01bf7786$7ea48f20$0400c0a8@winbook> This board is a SASI board made primarily to tap into the market grown around the XEBEC and OMTI boards. ADAPTEC somewhat later came out with a series (40xx) which later pretty much owned the market. They were all more or less similar, but none were "real" SCSI, in that (A) they didn't cave a firmly established common command set, and (b) they didn't use all of the soon-to-become-standard SCSI signals, certainly not entirely in the same way. By the time the standard was accepted, it was mostly the ADAPTEC feature set that won out. Nevertheless, Joe, you'll find that card can help you quite a little with putting a hard disk in place on your old CP/M systems. This can be helped along with a "back-end-driver" which installs itself under CP/M as an autocommand. This sits above the BIOS, hence uses a 2-k lower system than it would without it, but makes your SCSI hardware portable from one system to another. That's pretty handy in itself. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, February 14, 2000 11:26 PM Subject: Re: Western Digital WD 1002S-SHD card ??? > > >On Mon, 14 Feb 2000, Allison J Parent wrote: > >> >> < I visited a surplus dealer today and picked up an external hard drive >> > > > > > >> Well St225 is MFM so the card is either a host to MFM bridge or SCSI(SASI) >> to MFM bridge. >> >> The real answer is a part number on the card like WD1002-HDO (host interface >> number). Someone else may be able to confrm if the SHD is SASI or at that >> time early SCSI. > >TheRef45A says that it is SASI to ST-412. > > - don > >> Allison >> >> > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Feb 15 02:14:57 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: Decserver 100 References: <38a8ed6b.1697.0@creative-net.net> Message-ID: <013d01bf778c$c03fd9c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Anyone know where to find the necessary file(s) to boot a Decserver 100 from a Vax running VMS? I can only seem to find stuff for Decserver 200's & 300's. Advthanksance Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Feb 15 02:58:14 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: <007b01bf7764$086169e0$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: In my recent salvage digging a couple books came home with me; Digital MicroPDP-11 Hardware Information, book sized notebook thing in a sleeve. Copyright is 1987, and it appears to be about what goes in a BA213 chassis. IEEE International conference on circuits and computers, ICCC 82, proceedings. 632 phone book sized pages of pure geek pleasure. I like to get about $5 and postage for interesting books I offer first to the list, but I am happy to entertain ridiculous offers with the caveat that the firstest closest to $5 gets the book, and if no offer suits me its eBay. SPRING CLEANING I was thinking it might be interesting if we picked a day, say 3/1/2000, and everybody on the list digs through there stored treasures and in one fell swoop we post lists of stuff we want to sell or get rid of. Kind of a hamfest for the whole list. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Feb 15 04:57:50 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: OT: HTML question In-Reply-To: <007b01bf7764$086169e0$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: <200002150958.KAA04848@mail2.siemens.de> > I'm not too familiar with HTML, but I'm guessing that this question is e > asy to answer. > What's the code to open a new browser window when someone clicks on a li > nk? I want a new window to open with the requested page as the open document AFAIR it's the TARGET= parameter inside the A tag. You're about to build a screen spam site ? If I want to have a page in a seperate window I'll open one. Gruss H. -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue Feb 15 05:00:54 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: couple of books, spring cleaning References: Message-ID: <38A931E5.76B46EE0@arrl.net> If no one has come forward for the hardware manual, I'll meet your price on that. I have a BA213 work-in-progress so that would definitely be useful. Let me know shipping to 77095. Thanks Nick Mike Ford wrote: > In my recent salvage digging a couple books came home with me; > > Digital MicroPDP-11 Hardware Information, book sized notebook thing in a > sleeve. Copyright is 1987, and it appears to be about what goes in a BA213 > chassis. > > IEEE International conference on circuits and computers, ICCC 82, > proceedings. 632 phone book sized pages of pure geek pleasure. > > I like to get about $5 and postage for interesting books I offer first to > the list, but I am happy to entertain ridiculous offers with the caveat > that the firstest closest to $5 gets the book, and if no offer suits me its > eBay. > > SPRING CLEANING > I was thinking it might be interesting if we picked a day, say 3/1/2000, > and everybody on the list digs through there stored treasures and in one > fell swoop we post lists of stuff we want to sell or get rid of. Kind of a > hamfest for the whole list. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 15 07:51:57 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <007b01bf7764$086169e0$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000215085157.211f63b4@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:58 AM 2/15/00 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: > >SPRING CLEANING >I was thinking it might be interesting if we picked a day, say 3/1/2000, >and everybody on the list digs through there stored treasures and in one >fell swoop we post lists of stuff we want to sell or get rid of. Kind of a >hamfest for the whole list. > Sounds like fun. We can call it a virtual hamfest. Joe From KB9VU at aol.com Tue Feb 15 07:02:48 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: Western Digital WD 1002S-SHD card ??? Message-ID: In a message dated 2/15/00 00:26:40 Central Standard Time, donm@cts.com writes: > > > > < I visited a surplus dealer today and picked up an external hard drive > > > o > > > > > > > Well St225 is MFM so the card is either a host to MFM bridge or SCSI(SASI) > > to MFM bridge. > > > > The real answer is a part number on the card like WD1002-HDO (host > interface > > number). Someone else may be able to confrm if the SHD is SASI or at that > > > time early SCSI. > > TheRef45A says that it is SASI to ST-412. > > - don > Most of the early Heath/Zenith Hard Drive set ups manufactured by after market suppliers used the XEBEC controllers on the hard drives and interfaced to an SCSI card in the computer. The 50 pin female header connected to a 50 pin male header on the SCSI card in my H-89's. There were other schemes, one involving a Western Digital PC controller mounted on the ST-225 and an interface decoder card on the left buss in the H-89. I would bet that the HD described was interfaced to an SCSI card though. Just my .02 worth. YMMV Mike From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Feb 15 07:11:15 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: Western Digital WD 1002S-SHD card ??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000215040410.3ebf8be2@mailhost.intellistar.net> from Joe at "Feb 15, 2000 04:04:10 am" Message-ID: <200002151311.IAA48185@bg-tc-ppp436.monmouth.com> > Hi, > > I visited a surplus dealer today and picked up an external hard drive > case that he was throwing out. The case has a Seagate 225 drive in it with > some kind of Western Digital interface card. The card has MFM connection on > one end and a 50 pin header on the other. The header is connected to a > cable that had a SCSI type plug on it. Does anyone know if the card is a > SCSI to MFM interface or what? > > Joe Sounds like one. Omti, Emulex and WD made them for a while. Bill From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Feb 15 09:45:59 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000215085157.211f63b4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: Nah, gotta use the current buzzwords: eHamfest. On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Joe wrote: > At 12:58 AM 2/15/00 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: > > > >SPRING CLEANING > >I was thinking it might be interesting if we picked a day, say 3/1/2000, > >and everybody on the list digs through there stored treasures and in one > >fell swoop we post lists of stuff we want to sell or get rid of. Kind of a > >hamfest for the whole list. > > > Sounds like fun. We can call it a virtual hamfest. > > Joe > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 15 11:16:15 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: Western Digital WD 1002S-SHD card ??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000215121615.3d2fe1ee@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:02 AM 2/15/00 EST, Mike wrote: >In a message dated 2/15/00 00:26:40 Central Standard Time, donm@cts.com >writes: > >> > >> > < I visited a surplus dealer today and picked up an external hard drive >> > with >> > connection >> o >> > > > > > > > >> > Well St225 is MFM so the card is either a host to MFM bridge or >SCSI(SASI) >> > to MFM bridge. >> > >> > The real answer is a part number on the card like WD1002-HDO (host >> interface >> > number). Someone else may be able to confrm if the SHD is SASI or at >that >> >> > time early SCSI. >> >> TheRef45A says that it is SASI to ST-412. >> >> - don >> > >Most of the early Heath/Zenith Hard Drive set ups manufactured by after >market suppliers used the XEBEC controllers on the hard drives and interfaced >to an SCSI card in the computer. The 50 pin female header connected to a 50 >pin male header on the SCSI card in my H-89's. There were other schemes, one >involving a Western Digital PC controller mounted on the ST-225 and an >interface decoder card on the left buss in the H-89. I would bet that the HD >described was interfaced to an SCSI card though. > >Just my .02 worth. YMMV > > It would be great if I could make it work with my Z-100! Any suggestions? I have an original hard drive controller and data separator cards for the Z-100 but I found them buried in the dirt in a scrap yard and they're in poor condition. The controller card is a S-100 card and the data separator card is a small card that mounted on top of the drive. FWIW I just bought some Zenith technical manuals and I think there's a manual in there for the XEBEC card as used in the Z-89. Joe From wrking at tsoft.com Tue Feb 15 10:51:28 2000 From: wrking at tsoft.com (William King) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: DEC M7551 question Message-ID: <000101bf77d4$e721fe40$c001a8c0@example.com> I recently acquired a DEC M7551 (4Mb memory) board for my 11/23+. I installed the board, but the system traps while doing the power-on memory test. Unfortunately, I don't have any documentation for the board and I'm not sure if I have the jumpers/switches set correctly. It could be that the board is just dead, but I'd like make sure before I give up. If someone could forward me the settings, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Bill King From dogas at leading.net Tue Feb 15 10:57:30 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning Message-ID: <01bf77d5$bf09e7a0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> >Nah, gotta use the current buzzwords: eHamfest. The web page that becomes the front door to this eHamfest can dynamically scramble the anchors to each of the ventor pages kinda creating a random walk through the sales floor from our browsers... oops, nevermind ;) Mike: dogas@leading.net From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Feb 15 11:24:08 2000 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning References: <01bf77d5$bf09e7a0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: <38A98BB8.675BBA4A@olf.com> Mike wrote: > >Nah, gotta use the current buzzwords: eHamfest. > > The web page that becomes the front door to this eHamfest can dynamically > scramble the anchors to each of the ventor pages kinda creating a random > walk through the sales floor from our browsers... oops, nevermind > Use VRML to design a true virtual reality hamfest :-) Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From jallain at databaseamerica.com Tue Feb 15 11:44:58 2000 From: jallain at databaseamerica.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: (DG/ADM) ASR-33 Question In-Reply-To: <001d01bf7770$f49c7500$4c703ed8@compaq> Message-ID: <000001bf77dc$61647ff0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Owen Robertson asked: > various ASR-33/DG Nova/ADM-3A connectivity questions. For the record, Many, many terminals in the 70's and 80's were all co-compatible. The two standards involved here are current loop and RS-232. I'll let others talk about current loop. RS-232 can be regarded as basically PC serial (hope nobody loses lunch over the PC reference) using a 25 pin instead of 9 pin connector. Most terminals and mini's were all RS232 that I dealt with. (current loop tended to look real different -- four screw terminals, not pins) The bottom line I'd like to reach here is that It doesn't HAVE to be an ADM to work with the DG. There were dozens of other manufacturers. It can even be a PC running ?Kermit? with the appropriate connector. Next? John A. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Feb 15 12:11:57 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: DEC M7551 question Message-ID: <000215131157.25601c82@trailing-edge.com> >I recently acquired a DEC M7551 (4Mb memory) board for my 11/23+. I >installed the board, but the system traps while doing the power-on memory >test. Unfortunately, I don't have any documentation for the board and I'm >not sure if I have the jumpers/switches set correctly. It could be that the >board is just dead, but I'd like make sure before I give up. If someone >could forward me the settings, it would be greatly appreciated. Are you sure it's a 4 Mbyte (M7551-CA) board? If it's a 2 Mbyte (-BA) or a 1 Mbyte (-AA) board then it's very possible that it's jumpered for some other starting location than zero. And your CPU self-test is expecting memory starting at zero. If you can get to ODT ("@" prompt), try doing some examines of various locations, i.e. "0/", etc., and see if you get anything. If the board isn't responding at "0/", try higher addresses and see if it's living there. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dburrows at netpath.net Tue Feb 15 12:06:53 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: DEC M7551 question Message-ID: <0a3901bf77df$a9e1c0a0$a652e780@L166> I use them on 11/73's with all switches off. Dan Subject: DEC M7551 question >I recently acquired a DEC M7551 (4Mb memory) board for my 11/23+. I >installed the board, but the system traps while doing the power-on memory >test. Unfortunately, I don't have any documentation for the board and I'm >not sure if I have the jumpers/switches set correctly. It could be that the >board is just dead, but I'd like make sure before I give up. If someone >could forward me the settings, it would be greatly appreciated. > >Thanks, >Bill King From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Feb 15 10:51:00 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning References: <007b01bf7764$086169e0$6464a8c0@office1> <3.0.1.16.20000215085157.211f63b4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <003401bf77e1$09cc63c0$24d893c3@proteus> Hi, > Sounds like fun. We can call it a virtual hamfest. Sounds good to me too, I've got a bunch of stuff I'm trying to get rid of. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 15 13:24:00 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000215085157.211f63b4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:45 AM 2/15/00 -0800, you wrote: >Nah, gotta use the current buzzwords: eHamfest. I thought "Virtual" was the lastest buzz word? Oops! Ok that was last week! :-) Joe > >On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Joe wrote: > >> At 12:58 AM 2/15/00 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >> > >> >SPRING CLEANING >> >I was thinking it might be interesting if we picked a day, say 3/1/2000, >> >and everybody on the list digs through there stored treasures and in one >> >fell swoop we post lists of stuff we want to sell or get rid of. Kind of a >> >hamfest for the whole list. >> > >> Sounds like fun. We can call it a virtual hamfest. >> >> Joe >> > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Feb 15 12:36:31 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: Unibus Terminators available Message-ID: Got the following yesterday, and since I'm not in need of any he OK'd me sending this to the list. Please contact the original author, not me, if interested. Zane From: "J. Darren Peterson" >I've got three PDP boards new (unopened) in box. The vendor label says >M9312 , but on each box that part number has been scratched through and >the number M9301 written over it. Either way, you can have them for the >cost of shipping if you want. Let me know. > >J. Darren | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Feb 15 14:12:57 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: You volunteering for Transportation Coordinator, Mike????? It's a dirty job, but somebody....... Cheers John KB6SCO PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 14:40:48 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning Message-ID: <20000215204048.16408.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Lawson wrote: > John KB6SCO > > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? Ethan Dicks - N8TVD -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Feb 15 14:44:37 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: ; from jpl15@netcom.com on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800 References: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000215154437.A15158@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800, John Lawson wrote: > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? I'll bet it's a pretty high percentage... DE KC1P/2 John Wilson D Bit From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 15 14:45:45 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: ; from John Lawson on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800 References: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20000215134545.D21397@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800, John Lawson wrote: > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? KB7PWD (but I don't dit and dah, I'm one of those abominous no-code techs) -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From dburrows at netpath.net Tue Feb 15 14:50:30 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning Message-ID: <0aa801bf77f6$b9c24500$a652e780@L166> >John KB6SCO > > >PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or >so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? WB9DCX Dan From jallain at databaseamerica.com Tue Feb 15 15:02:10 2000 From: jallain at databaseamerica.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: <20000215154437.A15158@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <001401bf77f7$edb71790$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800, John Lawson wrote: > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? I have to have a LOT of respect for Hams. They have given me many great swap meets over the years. Also THX to the WRPI Video Lab annex --great playground. John A. Morse-Challenged. My radio? Cobra 900?Hhz Hand unit. $25 at "Staples" From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Feb 15 15:08:22 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers Message-ID: <20000215.150822.-314645.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> QRZ Jeff KH6JJN (GENERAL since 1977) On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:12:57 -0800 (PST) John Lawson writes: > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From kees.stravers at iae.nl Tue Feb 15 15:49:13 2000 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers Message-ID: <20000215214913.A170820F08@mail.iae.nl> On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:12:57 -0800 (PST) John Lawson writes: > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? 73 de Kees PB0AIA from JO21SK (That's the southern part of The Netherlands). Do I get a QSL card now? hi, or :-) confusing which symbols to use now! -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ My home page http://www.vaxarchive.org/ Info on old DEC VAX computers Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue Feb 15 15:53:26 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release Message-ID: <01BF77D5.2E7DD0C0.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Tuesday, February 08, 2000 7:33 PM, Stan Sieler [SMTP:ss@allegro.com] wrote: > Hi, > > If you have a Classic HP 3000 (any two-digit model #), > and if you received the "Y2K Safe" release of MPE recently, > and if you haven't installed it yet, > I have some notes that you should find interesting. > > (If you didn't get your Y2K Safe MPE V (which was free!), > email Allan Hertling at allan_hertling@hp.com) > > Thanks for the info Stan, I sent an email to Allan asking about the upgrade and he was EXTREMELY helpful. My system (HP 3000/42 Classic) did not have any patches applied for a very long time so, he's gonna send the whole package. The best part is it's absolutely FREE! All in all, HP has been extremely helpful in providing upgrades for my 3000 and 9000s. Steve Robertson - From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 15 15:56:17 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers In-Reply-To: <20000215.150822.-314645.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? Not Ham. Commercial Radiotelephone, used to do the two way radio racket. Allison From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Feb 15 20:48:06 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: ham radio? Message-ID: Hello, fellow OM's yes, I are a ham too, but don't send the code stuff. Now that the FCC had deregulated things, the majority of hams will NOT know Morse Code. didididahdidah CB radio has now infiltrated our ranks -- but us scrungers live on in cyberspace, or is that at a virtual hamfest where people still build things . . . Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP licenced 32 years this June From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 15 16:03:40 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: Re: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning (John Wilson) References: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> <20000215154437.A15158@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <14505.52540.550403.810924@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 15, John Wilson wrote: > On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800, John Lawson wrote: > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? > > I'll bet it's a pretty high percentage... Probably so. I'm formerly KA2UZK, expired, but hoping to re-test and renew this spring. -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 15 16:05:26 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: ham radio? In-Reply-To: ham radio? (Gary Hildebrand) References: Message-ID: <14505.52646.860204.435327@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 15, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > yes, I are a ham too, but don't send the code stuff. Now that the FCC had > deregulated things, the majority of hams will NOT know Morse Code. Hey...all hope is not lost, there. I know *I* really enjoy CW; I can't imagine I'm the only one. It's fun, and that will never change! -Dave McGuire From go at ao.com Tue Feb 15 16:09:43 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000215140607.035935b0@buffy.ao.com> >PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or >so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? Me too! Mostly hf (soon as I get my antennas back up) and soon RTTY (again). Some vhf, but most of my gear needs new batteries.. And to stay on topic: none of my hf gear is less than 10 years old - including the computers I use with it. Gary wa7shi From marvin at rain.org Mon Feb 14 16:19:23 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning References: Message-ID: <38A87F6B.6E12DE8F@rain.org> John Lawson wrote: > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? If there are any physically active hams out there, take a look at http://www.homingin.com. John knows about my interest in ARDF, and we are still looking for people to help round out the US ARDF team for the World Championships that will be held Oct. 13 - 18 in Nanjing, China. End of OT plug. In response to the reply about hams not needing to know Morse code anymore, that is not correct except for the new Technician entry level class; all others need only 5 WPM though. Marvin, KE6HTS (soon to be an Extra shortly after April 15, 2000!) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Feb 15 15:58:03 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > You volunteering for Transportation Coordinator, Mike????? > > > It's a dirty job, but somebody....... > > > > Cheers > >John KB6SCO > > >PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or >so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? WHAT! You aren't suggesting we let those guys with the weird radios mix with our vintage computers at this hamfest are you? Maybe we should consider creating/hijacking a alt.hamfest newsgroup? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Feb 15 15:53:52 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.20000215085157.211f63b4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: >At 07:45 AM 2/15/00 -0800, you wrote: >>Nah, gotta use the current buzzwords: eHamfest. > > I thought "Virtual" was the lastest buzz word? Oops! Ok that was last >week! :-) Nuts, I just checked www.hamfest.com This Domain: hamfest.com is for sale for $2000.00 call 888-480-4200 ask for Hank From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Feb 15 17:28:37 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000215085157.211f63b4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <200002152229.XAA01678@mail2.siemens.de> > Nah, gotta use the current buzzwords: eHamfest. To late, eHamfest.com is already taken. (And best of all, stroll to feedback and look the textfile :) Gruss h. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mac at Wireless.Com Tue Feb 15 16:43:34 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: ham radio? In-Reply-To: <14505.52646.860204.435327@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: Isn't is amazing? Two trailing-edge hobbies: ham radio and collecting old computers. Coincidence? ;-) -Mike (who's been licensed since 1966...) From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Feb 15 16:48:21 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers In-Reply-To: ; from allisonp@world.std.com on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 04:56:17PM -0500 References: <20000215.150822.-314645.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <20000215174821.A15537@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 04:56:17PM -0500, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > Not Ham. Commercial Radiotelephone, used to do the two way radio racket. So what did you do? Analog *and* digital, I'm impressed! I got the "general" radiotelephone ticket (used to be called "2nd class") on the first testing day after they eliminated 1st class and changed the rules (hmm, this would be early 1980s), but never got a radio job or otherwise had any practical use for it. I was really proud of getting a low serial # as a result of the rule change, but then I was late renewing it and lost the low #, went from PG-1-7 to PG-1-18665, I felt like such an idiot!!! Of course now they last for life anyway. The exam took me several tries to pass, it was *much* harder than the ham exams. But I got lucky, even after the rules change the Boston FCC office was still using old tests (the one I finally passed was dated 1968) which covered tubes but not transistors, good thing because my books were old too and didn't cover transistors well at all. Does anyone know if the commercial radiotelegraph licenses still exist? I used to want to get one but there were age restrictions on at least some of them (maybe just 1st class?) and you needed a passport photo and I think an appointment, and generally it sounded like more of a pain than the 'phone stuff (where you just showed up off the street at the Customs House and gave the test a whirl). I'm sure I'd need a *lot* of tries to pass the commercial code test though, some of the ham ones took a few tries. I still have that plodding recorded FCC voice etched in my memory "write your naammmmmme, the date, and the speeeeeed of this test" from all those ^*!(#^@%^ tests... John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Feb 15 17:00:55 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: ham radio? In-Reply-To: <14505.52646.860204.435327@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 05:05:26PM -0500 References: <14505.52646.860204.435327@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000215180055.B15537@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 05:05:26PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > Hey...all hope is not lost, there. I know *I* really enjoy CW; I > can't imagine I'm the only one. It's fun, and that will never change! I agree, although it's been a few years... Morse is great, you can use *much* simpler equipment and get a readable signal through worse conditions with less power. My main rig, last time I lived some place with a yard big enough for wire antennas, was a CW-only Heath HW16, it was great. So simple that even a doofus like me had some inkling of how it worked. This may sound elitist but I really liked the fact that ham licenses had the Morse code requirement, because it kept out the riff-raff. Forcing people to learn to translate a cipher in their heads real time required a certain amount of commitment, so by the time they got a license, they really valued it and acted a lot more mature as a result. Meanwhile you could get a CB license just by mailing $4 (or not even, once the FCC got busted for charging fees), but of course that turned into 40 channels of impenetrable noise. Hmm, what was the name of that guy who decided that having a ham license w/o bothering to learn anything first was some kind of god-given right, so he started using the freedom of information act to find out the answers to the FCC tests and published them in books? I hope something bad happened to him by now... John Wilson D Bit From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Feb 15 16:58:50 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (mcquiggi@sfu.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers Message-ID: <200002152258.OAA17823@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> I'm a ham, have been licenced since 1977. I'm VE7ZD, ex VE7CPT. Active on HF (CW, SSB, RTTY), VHF, UHF (FM, SSB, Moonbounce, packet, satellites). 73, Kevin From steverob at hotoffice.com Tue Feb 15 17:09:21 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers Message-ID: <01BF77DF.C90DF250.steverob@hotoffice.com> > I got the "general" radiotelephone ticket (used to be called "2nd class") on > the first testing day after they eliminated 1st class and changed the rules > (hmm, this would be early 1980s), but never got a radio job or otherwise > had any practical use for it. I earned my first class license in 1975. Never got a job in the industry so, I let it lapse. Still have the certificate laying around here ... somewhere... Steve Robertson - From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Feb 15 22:23:41 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:43 2005 Subject: FCC licences Message-ID: Hello fellow hams and others, Besides having a ham licence, I also had a First Class Radiotelephone, until the FCC deregulated that as well back in 1985. Now it is just a General Radiotelephone licence, which is required only in a handful of circumstances. And then try to get one today!! The exam is given under a similar structure as the ham licence VEC program, but not the same. And it costs $100+ for an attempt. It's too bad the FCC ran short of money and had to curtail a lot of its activities. Now I just call then the Gettysburg Address. Gary Hildebrand From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Feb 15 17:52:33 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: <01BF77D5.2E7DD0C0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: Seconded! I don't think "helpful" comes close to describing his attitude! I think HP is a model for how classy a giant computer company can really be. Their attitude toward us home enthusiasts is, "well, we had the software ready for someone to use...why not send it out to hobbyists for free as well!" I could hardly believe that they not only offered me the full install set (full subsys tapes, everything), but then he's including extra system manuals and tips on avoiding installation pitfalls as well! I am absolutely blown away...thanks again, Stan... Cheers, Aaron On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: > On Tuesday, February 08, 2000 7:33 PM, Stan Sieler [SMTP:ss@allegro.com] > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > If you have a Classic HP 3000 (any two-digit model #), > > and if you received the "Y2K Safe" release of MPE recently, > > and if you haven't installed it yet, > > I have some notes that you should find interesting. > > > > (If you didn't get your Y2K Safe MPE V (which was free!), > > email Allan Hertling at allan_hertling@hp.com) > > > > > > Thanks for the info Stan, > > I sent an email to Allan asking about the upgrade and he was EXTREMELY > helpful. My system (HP 3000/42 Classic) did not have any patches applied > for a very long time so, he's gonna send the whole package. The best part > is it's absolutely FREE! > > All in all, HP has been extremely helpful in providing upgrades for my 3000 > and 9000s. > > Steve Robertson - > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Feb 15 17:57:09 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning References: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> <20000215154437.A15158@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <006001bf7810$b7b89380$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Wilson To: Sent: Wednesday, 16 February 2000 7:14 Subject: Re: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning > On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800, John Lawson wrote: > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? Guilty as charged. DE VK5KDR 73 Geoff Roberts From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Feb 15 18:07:29 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning References: <3.0.1.16.20000215142400.3e376738@mailhost.intellistar.net> <20000215154437.A15158@dbit.dbit.com> <14505.52540.550403.810924@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <007f01bf7812$4a0a59c0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave McGuire To: Sent: Wednesday, 16 February 2000 8:33 Subject: Re: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning > Probably so. I'm formerly KA2UZK, expired, but hoping to re-test > and renew this spring. You have to be retested if your license expires? Different. When we pass the exams for the various licenses here, you are issued with a "Certificate of Proficiency", and you quote the certificate number(s) when you apply for a license. The certificates are good for life. I have 2, 1 for Novice (similar to yours I think) and 1 for Limited. (sorta like Technician?) Different system. I did morse @ 5wpm to get my novice, Limited is same as full call, minus morse, so I only need morse @ 10wpm to get my full license. (Full call is the top of the list - we don't have extra class or anything like it) You only need a retest if you have had your license/certificate cancelled for some reason, (and usually not even then - it's an option they can throw at you) or some (detected!) major on air stuffup. Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Feb 15 18:18:44 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Hams In-Reply-To: <006001bf7810$b7b89380$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from Geoff Roberts at "Feb 16, 2000 10:27:09 am" Message-ID: <200002160018.TAA49130@bg-tc-ppp757.monmouth.com> > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800, John Lawson wrote: > > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > > > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? > > Guilty as charged. > > DE VK5KDR > > > 73 > > Geoff Roberts > > > Actually, it's not a surprise that there's a significant number of Hams in the Classic Computer ranks... Who do you think built the early computer kits in the first place... My wife dared me to take the test a couple of years ago... so I dared her back... She's now N2VIS. Bill N2RDI ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 15 18:13:44 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning Message-ID: <200002160013.TAA23542@world.std.com> > Not Ham. Commercial Radiotelephone, used to do the two way radio racket < from "allisonp@world.std.com" at "Feb 15, 2000 04:56:17 pm" Message-ID: <200002160023.TAA49230@bg-tc-ppp757.monmouth.com> > > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > > > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? > > > Not Ham. Commercial Radiotelephone, used to do the two way radio racket. > > > Allison > > > That was a tough test. When getting out of tech school before going to DEC I took it and just missed the score by one question. Never followed up on taking it again (already had the 3rd class for college radio DJ work)... Spent the rest of my time with Digital and couldn't draw a Colpitts (IIRC) Osc. if my life depended on it any more. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Feb 15 18:49:55 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: ham radio? Message-ID: <20000215.184957.39.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:00:55 -0500 John Wilson writes: >Hmm, what was the name of that guy who decided that having a ham >license w/o bothering to learn anything first was some kind of god-given >right, so he started using the freedom of information act to find out the >answers to the FCC tests and published them in books? I hope something bad >happened to him by now... I think someone hit him with the Wouff-hong. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue Feb 15 18:56:24 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning References: Message-ID: <38A9F5B8.3D303AA5@arrl.net> John Lawson wrote: > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? Not a ham..... a long time SWL and boatanchor collector. Learned morse during my beacon-chaser phase. One of these days will get the motivation to climb that tree and restore my storm damaged antenna. Nick From KB9VU at aol.com Tue Feb 15 19:05:20 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning Message-ID: --... ...-- Mike Stover, KB9VU CCA# 404 MARS AFA3BO Florissant, MO From rcini at msn.com Tue Feb 15 19:06:37 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: OT: HTML question Message-ID: <003c01bf781d$3a5b2620$6464a8c0@office1> Hello, all: I assure all of you that my intentions for an automatic window are honor able! No porno at all (although I hear that it's a lucrative site to run :-) ) Here's what I don't like. On my site, when you click the link for the My 6502 project, you wind up having two navigation columns on the left hand sid e. I think that it looks funny. So, I wanted to have that link open up in an other browser window. Thanks for the help. Rich [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 15 19:33:02 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Anyone Out There With a Sun 4/110? In-Reply-To: <200002150222.SAA25683@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Feb 14, 0 06:22:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2048 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000216/193788b6/attachment-0001.ksh From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 15 19:37:47 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers In-Reply-To: <20000215.150822.-314645.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000215173747.00941a50@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 15:08 15-02-2000 -0600, you wrote: >QRZ > >Jeff KH6JJN (GENERAL since 1977) Ditto. QRZ de WD6EOS, original Tech class (code and all) since December of '77. Also FCC General Radiotelephone (same as 2nd Class Commercial), WITH Radar endorsement, since Nov. of '82. And this is a surprise, how? ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 15 19:36:57 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: ASR-33 Question In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000214213742.00945ea0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from "Bruce Lane" at Feb 14, 0 09:37:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1119 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000216/e346d498/attachment-0001.ksh From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 15 19:44:19 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: ham radio? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000215174419.009589d0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 21:48 15-02-2000 -0500, you wrote: >CB radio has now infiltrated our ranks -- but us scrungers live on in >cyberspace, or is that at a virtual hamfest where people still build things I don't really see it that way, Gary. I see it instead as a big opportunity to "Elmer" a bunch of new blood into the hobby. I would also point out that the "death of 2 meters" (not my words) was predicted when the FCC dropped the code requirement for Tech. As far as I can tell, it didn't happen. 2 meters in the Seattle area is (with the occasional exception, quickly tracked down and dealt with) pretty well behaved. The fact that hamateur rigs cost much more than CB sets will help to weed out those who are really serious about the hobby, and those who are just "lookie-loos." I would also like to think that the upcoming revisions in the tests will make it difficult, if not impossible, to pass just by rote memorization. This means questions that require some level of actual electronics knowledge. I say let's wait to see what happens before disaster is expected. 73 de WD6EOS (eligible for QCWA membership in two years). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From rcini at msn.com Tue Feb 15 19:42:32 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <004701bf781f$54c3ca60$6464a8c0@office1> Here's another question...does anyone have a pointer to the source code for a 6502-based BASIC interpreter that's ROMable? Rich [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> From emu at ecubics.com Tue Feb 15 19:54:19 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Maxtor xt8760 drives References: <0a3901bf77df$a9e1c0a0$a652e780@L166> Message-ID: <009c01bf7820$c71c4af0$5d01a8c0@p2350> Hi, Anybody here knows, what the difference is between the xt-8760E and xt-8760EF version ? (ESDI Drives ...) cheers, emanuel From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Feb 16 01:14:25 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: ham radio Message-ID: I do remember Dick Bash, KL7??? who started the whole licencing uproar. I think he finally got his tech licence pulled for some silly reason. Yes, I love them boat anchors too. Hollow state technology with the warm glow of filaments is so nostalgic. I personally will have a boat anchor station set up. Drake 2B and a Central Electronics 100V transmitter tied into a Johnson Desk Kilowatt. I heven have the Ranger exciter to run it as a KW plate modulated if necessary (now illegal). Yes, I do have rice boxes as well, but there is no challenge to those. But they are nice mobile. I challenge all of you out there to get a ham licence, no code or even the 5 wpm. The 5 wpm is no barrier -- anyone can learn that in a few weeks a couple nights a week. C U on the bands . . . Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP .__ ._ __... _._ _._ .__. ._. collector of old General Electric Progress Line radios and anything else that glows in the dark From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Feb 15 20:59:21 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers In-Reply-To: <20000215.150822.-314645.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000215215547.00b79ca0@206.231.8.2> Not a ham yet but plan on it in next several years. Had my ticket back in mid-70's but never got too active and let it lapse (ex-WB2WAO). Besides, I've got enough BA's and WWII/Korea-vintage military gear in the collection to keep me busy in restoring and listening for several years to come. :-) 73s, Chris -- -- Upon the date 03:08 PM 2/15/00 -0600, Jeffrey l Kaneko said something like: > >QRZ > >Jeff KH6JJN (GENERAL since 1977) > > >On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:12:57 -0800 (PST) John Lawson >writes: >> PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or >> so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? > >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Feb 15 21:10:58 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: ham radio? In-Reply-To: <20000215.184957.39.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com>; from jeff.kaneko@juno.com on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 06:49:55PM -0600 References: <20000215.184957.39.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <20000215221058.A17961@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 06:49:55PM -0600, jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > I think someone hit him with the Wouff-hong. Geez, it's been waaaay too long, what's that again? And I forget what a Wollongong (sp?) is too... John Wilson KC1P (formerly KA1BNJ from Sep '78 -- Bad News John!) D Bit From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 21:09:10 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning Message-ID: <20000216030910.15692.qmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Allison J Parent wrote: > Yes the restructure made code a requirement for general and extra only and > the tech is expanded. If I can pony up at least 5wpm I plan to go for the > general, if not the tech as I can pass the technical elements in my sleep > and the rules aren't all that bad. I'm personally looking forward to the new rules - I got a "know code" technician in 1992 and plan to bump myself up to at least general since I already have the 5 wpm. I'd been wanting to get a ticket for a while, my father was one in the '50s, but he let his lapse. The final straw was the depletion of the "N8" call sign - I got N8TVD, as I said earlier. My younger brother got N8YKN. AFAIK, techs around here get "KC8" calls now. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 15 22:29:09 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: References: <01BF77D5.2E7DD0C0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000215232909.3a6796c6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I spotted a HP 3000 system 37 today in a scrap place. It has two HP 7963 drives and a bunch of other stuff that I don't recognize. Can anyone tell me something about them? Joe At 03:52 PM 2/15/00 -0800, you wrote: >Seconded! I don't think "helpful" comes close to describing his attitude! > >I think HP is a model for how classy a giant computer company can really >be. Their attitude toward us home enthusiasts is, "well, we had the >software ready for someone to use...why not send it out to hobbyists for >free as well!" I could hardly believe that they not only offered me the >full install set (full subsys tapes, everything), but then he's including >extra system manuals and tips on avoiding installation pitfalls as well! I >am absolutely blown away...thanks again, Stan... > >Cheers, > >Aaron > >On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: > >> On Tuesday, February 08, 2000 7:33 PM, Stan Sieler [SMTP:ss@allegro.com] >> wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > If you have a Classic HP 3000 (any two-digit model #), >> > and if you received the "Y2K Safe" release of MPE recently, >> > and if you haven't installed it yet, >> > I have some notes that you should find interesting. >> > >> > (If you didn't get your Y2K Safe MPE V (which was free!), >> > email Allan Hertling at allan_hertling@hp.com) >> > >> > >> >> Thanks for the info Stan, >> >> I sent an email to Allan asking about the upgrade and he was EXTREMELY >> helpful. My system (HP 3000/42 Classic) did not have any patches applied >> for a very long time so, he's gonna send the whole package. The best part >> is it's absolutely FREE! >> >> All in all, HP has been extremely helpful in providing upgrades for my 3000 >> and 9000s. >> >> Steve Robertson - >> > > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 15 21:35:57 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Maxtor xt8760 drives In-Reply-To: <009c01bf7820$c71c4af0$5d01a8c0@p2350> References: <0a3901bf77df$a9e1c0a0$a652e780@L166> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000215193557.00908c80@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 18:54 15-02-2000 -0700, you wrote: >Hi, > >Anybody here knows, what the difference is between the xt-8760E and >xt-8760EF version ? I would guess that E is standard ESDI (10 MHz) and EF means 'Fast' (15 or higher). Then again, that's a guess. Maybe someone else knows better...? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 15 21:09:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Feb 15, 0 12:12:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 272 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000216/b21bd270/attachment-0001.ksh From transit at primenet.com Tue Feb 15 21:52:23 2000 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: <14505.52540.550403.810924@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Dave McGuire wrote: > On February 15, John Wilson wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 12:12:57PM -0800, John Lawson wrote: > > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > > > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? > > > > I'll bet it's a pretty high percentage... > > Probably so. I'm formerly KA2UZK, expired, but hoping to re-test > and renew this spring. I'm N6YMK, occasionally on 2-meters, and hopefully to be on 10 real soon. . . From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 15 22:50:55 2000 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:12:57 -0800 (PST) . Message-ID: In message , John Laws on writes: >PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or >so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? I'd guess I'm not one of the ones you know about as I don't remember ever mentioning it before. So make that eleven or so. Brian WD4AWY From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Feb 15 22:39:56 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Ham population stats Message-ID: So far: 23 respondents to my "Who's a Ham" question; not counting the several commercial licensees among us. Off Topic: I am hoping that the recent US FCC relaxing of the license requirements will breathe a little New Life into the bands in this country... the average age of the Ham population is now in the late 50s or something. There was a time when our communication system in this country, and especially emergency communication, was augmented positively by Hams... but there was a time when computers were as big as the ones in my living room... times have changed. To all who grouse about having had to learn 13WPM (Im a General Class) or 20 WPM (for Extra Class) I say this: It's only a hobby, and a great, though dying one... I welcome all the new hams to come... 5WPM will still be a good "sincerity" filter, and c'mon, people.... it's only *one* character every *two* freakin seconds!! [you do the math: 5 WPM, 5 letters/word avg... 25 char in 60 secs avg] On Topic: I want to use the PDP 11/44 to talk to my (vintage) AEA PK232 Multi-Mode terminal node controller... but even more I want to lash up an RTTY program for the PDP, to send and recieve Baudot in real time. This is in addition to the vintage 60's RTTY station I am assembling... just looking for a good Transmitter. Major components are Model 19, Collins R-388 (51-J) [serial number 235..!] and Irv Hoff TU made homebrew from 60s QST articles. And now back to your originally scheduled Classic Computer Collector's List already in progress.. Cheers John From rws at enteract.com Tue Feb 15 22:43:56 2000 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: ham radio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, John Lawson wrote: > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? I'm KF9VP, and sometime soon I will get kf9vp.ampr.org [44.72.70.29] back on the air. It's a IBM PC XT with a Seagate ST-225 hard drive; when you open a telnet connection to it the hard drive seeks away like mad for about 15-20 seconds before you get a login: prompt. The sound almost makes you feel sorry for the drive :-) Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Tue Feb 15 22:53:25 2000 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC In-Reply-To: <004701bf781f$54c3ca60$6464a8c0@office1> from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at "Feb 15, 0 08:42:32 pm" Message-ID: <200002160453.UAA15034@oa.ptloma.edu> ::Here's another question...does anyone have a pointer to the source code for ::a 6502-based BASIC interpreter that's ROMable? Why, look in every Commodore, Apple II, or Atari! :-P (But if that's unsatisfactory, I'd be interested, too.) -- -------------------- personal page: http://calvin.flactem.com:3001/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu -- I used to miss my dad, but then my aim improved. --------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Tue Feb 15 22:50:03 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Maxtor xt8760 drives Message-ID: <001401bf7839$4c2315e0$0400c0a8@winbook> That might be the case, except that my recollection of the "standard" MAXTOR drives were pretty much all 15 Mbit drives. Later they may have gone faster, though. My 4380's and 8760's are all 15 Mbit drives. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 8:44 PM Subject: Re: Maxtor xt8760 drives >At 18:54 15-02-2000 -0700, you wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>Anybody here knows, what the difference is between the xt-8760E and >>xt-8760EF version ? > > I would guess that E is standard ESDI (10 MHz) and EF means 'Fast' (15 or >higher). > > Then again, that's a guess. Maybe someone else knows better...? > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 15 23:01:09 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: ham radio? In-Reply-To: ; from Gary Hildebrand on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 09:48:06PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000215220109.F19165@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 09:48:06PM -0500, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > yes, I are a ham too, but don't send the code stuff. Now that the FCC had > deregulated things, the majority of hams will NOT know Morse Code. Actually for me it's more of an incentive to learn. 5wpm for all classes isn't nearly so daunting. And I would probably enjoy taking on the technical tests as a challenge. So it's only one hurdle to clear rather than 3. I spent some time learning Morse with an old DOS tutor program. I learned about half the alphabet and after that, it just seemed to get too confusing. And I've always hated rote memorization type tasks anyway... learning to type was really frustrating (but of course it's one of my most valuable skills in that category too). It's not fun until it becomes an instinct, but it can't become an instinct until you memorize the symbolic information (the sound of the CW or the location of the keys). -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From edick at idcomm.com Tue Feb 15 23:20:30 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <002501bf783d$8cfa1100$0400c0a8@winbook> I doubt, somehow, that you could classify what's in the ROMs in an ATARI or COMMODORE as source code. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 9:56 PM Subject: Re: Source code for BASIC >::Here's another question...does anyone have a pointer to the source code for >::a 6502-based BASIC interpreter that's ROMable? > >Why, look in every Commodore, Apple II, or Atari! :-P > >(But if that's unsatisfactory, I'd be interested, too.) > >-- >-------------------- personal page: http://calvin.flactem.com:3001/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@ptloma.edu >-- I used to miss my dad, but then my aim improved. --------------------------- From nerdware at laidbak.com Tue Feb 15 23:22:26 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: ham radio In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002160523.XAA22600@garcon.laidbak.com> WA7KKP WA7KKP DE WD9GCO WD9GCO K My first station (ca. 1978) consisted of a Heath DX-100B and a Knight R-190A, feeding into a homebrew T/R relay and out to an inverted vee hanging off the TV tower. I used a 100W light bulb in a ceramic socket as my dummy load, and I used a WB4VVF Accu- Keyer (still have it...) My paddle was homebrew as well. I used a pair of Radio Shack straight keys, screwed back-to-back and mounted vertically on an angle bracket with two pieces of phenolic circuit board replacing the knobs. Worked well. Even worked some DX, which was an incredible thrill for a Novice in high school.....(also learned that my transmitter was not exactly right on the money, dial-wise. I got a nice little QSL report from the fine folks in Grand Island, Nebraska, when I apparently ventured 5KHz outside the 40m Novice band.....) Bought a 520s after that, still have it. It's still got tubes in the final.....they'll take a lot more punishment than transistors... 73, Paul > I do remember Dick Bash, KL7??? who started the whole licencing uproar. I > think he finally got his tech licence pulled for some silly reason. > > Yes, I love them boat anchors too. Hollow state technology with the warm > glow of filaments is so nostalgic. > > I personally will have a boat anchor station set up. Drake 2B and a > Central Electronics 100V transmitter tied into a Johnson Desk Kilowatt. I > heven have the Ranger exciter to run it as a KW plate modulated if > necessary (now illegal). Yes, I do have rice boxes as well, but there is > no challenge to those. But they are nice mobile. > > I challenge all of you out there to get a ham licence, no code or even the > 5 wpm. The 5 wpm is no barrier -- anyone can learn that in a few weeks a > couple nights a week. C U on the bands . . . > > Gary Hildebrand > WA7KKP .__ ._ __... _._ _._ .__. ._. > > collector of old General Electric Progress Line radios > and anything else that glows in the dark > Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From nerdware at laidbak.com Tue Feb 15 23:25:50 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002160526.XAA22616@garcon.laidbak.com> I'd like to find one of the cartridge-rom cw decoders for the C64 so I can put mine back to work in the shack. I see them every once in a while on ebay, but they go for more than they cost new...... > > On Topic: I want to use the PDP 11/44 to talk to my (vintage) AEA > PK232 Multi-Mode terminal node controller... but even more I want > to lash up an RTTY program for the PDP, to send and recieve Baudot > in real time. > > This is in addition to the vintage 60's RTTY station I am > assembling... just looking for a good Transmitter. Major components are > Model 19, Collins R-388 (51-J) [serial number 235..!] and Irv Hoff TU made > homebrew from 60s QST articles. > Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 15 23:39:15 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Packet (was: ham radio) In-Reply-To: ; from Richard W. Schauer on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 10:43:56PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20000215223915.G19165@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 10:43:56PM -0600, Richard W. Schauer wrote: > On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, John Lawson wrote: > > > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? > > I'm KF9VP, and sometime soon I will get kf9vp.ampr.org [44.72.70.29] back > on the air. It's a IBM PC XT with a Seagate ST-225 hard drive; when you > open a telnet connection to it the hard drive seeks away like mad for > about 15-20 seconds before you get a login: prompt. The sound almost > makes you feel sorry for the drive :-) Wow, yeah NOS is kindof advanced as DOS programs go. My main ham interest is TCP/IP packet actually, I'm too shy to chew the rag with strangers around the world. :-) But I'm using a modern machine (relatively, a dual Pentium 100) with Linux. Support for TCP/IP over AX.25 is just excellent. After 5 years of evangelizing some of the other hams around here are starting to use it too. It doesn't even serve much purpose really, hardly any traffic actually flows over packet but I guess sometimes people like to log in to my system as a way to telnet out to the Internet. I want to provide as many gateway type functions as I can eventually but haven't figured it all out yet. And I want to put together a second setup for testing purposes and for mobile use. I'm using a Mitrek for operating at 9600 baud (now we're back on topic kindof, the radios are old! :-) When I first got involved with packet I was using my 386 machine with a couple of MFM drives that I'd pressed into RLL service. I think one was a full-height 30 meg drive and the other was an ST-251. There wasn't a lot of excess space but plenty for a no-frills install of Slackware back then. I started with a somewhat flaky Heathkit HD-4040 tnc and then upgraded to a KPC-9612 to do 9600 baud, and that's what I still have now although I've got a PI2 kit to finish building some day (need to find some parts to finish it, such as the SCC chip and some others) and a PacComm 9600 baud modem to go with it, and some other 9600 baud TNC for another channel or whatever. I'm on 144.91 MHz but there is a 440-band backbone too which I want to get on eventually. I found a couple of digiboards on ebay so now I have plenty of serial ports to hook up as many TNC's as I like (as well as eliminating the main reason I wanted to get that MassComp working... anybody locally want a MassComp?) I'm also supposedly working on a little project to send traffic reports out over APRS, using data taken from the ADOT road-speed sensors, ramp meters and so on. But that involves somebody else who hasn't been in contact with me for a couple months so I will have to yank his chain again one of these days. Meanwhile maybe I'll find a good deal on an extra 1200 baud TNC so I can actually do APRS. Linux software for that is starting to exist in embryonic form. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 00:10:13 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <20000216061013.8752.qmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > I doubt, somehow, that you could classify what's in the ROMs in an ATARI or > COMMODORE as source code. No, but there's reverse-engineered source at ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/cbm/src/pet/basic.zip And it has already demonstrated to be ROMable. The problem is that any 6502 BASIC I have ever worked with is very hardware and firmware dependent. It is, however, a place to start. If this proves insufficient, I can probably dredge up some stuff off of an official C= Assembler disk I got from them in 1982 to develop for the C-64. I know there's some source code there; I forget what it covers. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Feb 16 00:31:08 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Ham population stats References: Message-ID: <01c701bf7847$6a178280$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: John Lawson To: Sent: Wednesday, 16 February 2000 3:09 Subject: Ham population stats > So far: 23 respondents to my "Who's a Ham" question; not counting > the several commercial licensees among us. Not surprised. > Off Topic: I am hoping that the recent US FCC relaxing of the > license requirements will breathe a little New Life into the bands in > this country... the average age of the Ham population is now in the > late 50s or something. Similar demographics here. > all who grouse about having had to learn 13WPM (Im a General Class) > or 20 WPM (for Extra Class) Ouch. No wonder there were so few Extras. Morse is harder for some than others, I doubt I could ever get to that speed, no matter how hard I tried. It took me MONTHS to learn it at 5wpm. > 5WPM will still be a good "sincerity" filter, and c'mon, people.... > it's only *one* character every *two* freakin seconds!! [you do the > math: 5 WPM, 5 letters/word avg... 25 char in 60 secs avg] I'm hoping they will follow suit here, and scrap the 10wpm requirement, which means I would automatically graduate up to full call...:^) > On Topic: I want to use the PDP 11/44 to talk to my (vintage) AEA > PK232 Multi-Mode terminal node controller... but even more I want > to lash up an RTTY program for the PDP, to send and recieve Baudot > in real time. I have something similar in mind for the Vax 6430. I had Packet as well as rtty in mind. Plenty of terminals. (DMB32) Ideally I'd like to find some way to use a Baycom style modem, TNC's are still ridiculously overpriced. (I use a converted C64 Sendata modem, on a PC, Baycom style, on 1200bd 2M packet.) > This is in addition to the vintage 60's RTTY station I am > assembling... just looking for a good Transmitter. Major components > are Model 19, Collins R-388 (51-J) [serial number 235..!] and Irv > Hoff TU made homebrew from 60s QST articles. I have a (mostly) 'firebottle' powered Yaesu FT200, (early 70's?) a REALLY old straight key, (came off a morse practise set, that used a SOUNDER wound with cloth covered wire - long gone now alas) but the key is a beaut, high quality brass with steel contacts. No idea where it came from, but I suspect it's early 20th century. RTTY wise, I have a Siemens Model 100 (the TT Corp stuff wasn't common here, Siemens ruled.) as well as the usual collection of software based rtty stuff. But to do packet and/or rtty from a terminal on the vax would be ultra cool. I'm trying to build up a 170hz shift rtty TU in my (hah!) copious free time. I have some other Siemens machines and a commercial (ex mil) decoder that are part of an Air Training Corp (Air Force Cadets) project that is around half built up. I have an old Dick Smith VZ200 with a RTTY en/decoder module, (just eproms IIRC) the VZ isn't working, (shows a wierd chessboard pattern on the screen - possibly video ram or something similar is crook) not sure what it REALLY is but it has a coloured keyboard made up of little square plastic buttons. Dates from the mid 80's IIRC. Must dig it out and have a further tinker with it. Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From ernestls at home.com Wed Feb 16 00:32:04 2000 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Michael Grigoni -please read Message-ID: <000d01bf7847$8abfcce0$59a40b18@C721564-A.home.com> Hey, I tried to mail you an image of ATT Unix SVR2 foundation disk 1 but I keep getting "undeliverable" error messages. I emailed you once yesterday, and it seemed to go through OK but I'm not sure if it made it or not. I had to get creative with it. Is there a problem with your email? Send me an email and I'll try to "Reply" to it again, and see if it works. Also, with the Teledisk program and a zipped copy of the disk image, the email is about 500k. Is that a problem? Ernest From donm at cts.com Wed Feb 16 00:41:06 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Maxtor xt8760 drives In-Reply-To: <009c01bf7820$c71c4af0$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi, > > Anybody here knows, what the difference is between the xt-8760E and > xt-8760EF version ? > (ESDI Drives ...) Maxtor's specification for the XT8000 series identifies an E and an EH series, where the H stands for high performance. Track to track of 2.5ms vice 3.0, full stroke of 30ms vice 35. There appears to be no difference in transfer rate, however. I did not find any reference to an EF version, though. - don > cheers, > emanuel > > > From wrm at ccii.co.za Wed Feb 16 04:03:27 2000 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning Message-ID: <200002161050.MAA29426@ccii.co.za> >PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or >so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? dahdidit dit dahdahdidah dididit didahdahdahdah dahdidah dit didahdidahdit dahdidah. :-) W From Mzthompson at aol.com Wed Feb 16 08:49:51 2000 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: HAM CCMP'ers Message-ID: <73.120bdf2.25dc130f@aol.com> John Lawson wrote: > PS: How many Listmembers are also Hams? I know of at least ten or > so of us... dah-dit dah-dit dah dah dit-dah..... QRZ? Mike Cheponis wrote: > Isn't is amazing? Two trailing-edge hobbies: ham radio and collecting > old computers. Coincidence? ;-) Coincidence? Nah! It's due to an ionized packrat gene. Mike Thompson KA9JWZ (Technician), 1982 Commercial Radiotelephone License, 1970 From bill at chipware.com Wed Feb 16 09:24:05 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC In-Reply-To: <004701bf781f$54c3ca60$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: <001101bf7891$dc6179f0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> I just acquired Microsoft 8K basic in ROM for OSI on paper tape. I currently have no facility to read it, so I don't know if it is source or object. The tape seems to be in good shape (doesn't seem to be fragile) so it should be good for a few passes through a reader. I'll let you know. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini, > Jr. > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 8:43 PM > To: ClassCompList > Subject: Source code for BASIC > > > Here's another question...does anyone have a pointer to the > source code for > a 6502-based BASIC interpreter that's ROMable? > > Rich > > [ Rich Cini/WUGNET > [ ClubWin!/CW1 > [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking > [ Collector of "classic" computers > [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > <================ reply separator =================> > > > From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Feb 16 09:11:42 2000 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest Message-ID: Hams, Howdy. I'm utterly inactive but I do actually have (had? I'd better check, may have expired) technician KB6UOH. My wife was listening to me struggling to work up to 5 WPM code, using our Mac Plus (am I on-topic now?) as a random code generator. She thought it sounded kind of neat, tried it out, and was doing 10 WPM in a few days. (grrrr!). On the way down to the test I taught her Ohm's law and a few frequencies and talked her into taking the test. She took clean code (and the volunteers there were begging her to try out the general code test) and squeaked by the multiple-choice stuff and got license KB6UOI (awww, how sweet, consecutive numbers...). Now if we'd just get a radio and get on the air..... - Mark From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Feb 16 10:52:52 2000 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC In-Reply-To: <001101bf7891$dc6179f0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:24:05 -0500 Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I just acquired Microsoft 8K basic in ROM for OSI on paper > tape. Since that's very similar to the BASIC for the Compukit UK101, I'd be very interested to hear more about it! I have a UK101 Web page here: http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/uk101.htm > good for a few passes through a reader. I'll let you know. Please do! -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From hofer at wgh.ch Wed Feb 16 11:09:20 2000 From: hofer at wgh.ch (J.-P. Hofer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Harddisk DEC DSP3210S Message-ID: <200002161709.SAA00449@navier> Hello, I am looking for technical information about a SCSI harddisk DEC DSP3210S. Does anyone have some details about jumper settings, capacity and other specifications ? Thanks in advance. Regards. -- Jean-Pierre Hofer hofer@wgh.ch _______________________________________________________________________ Appareils scientifiques Hofer / Wissenschaftliche Ger?te Hofer Case postale 3126 CH - 8021 Z?rich Phone + 41 1 251 07 31 Suisse / Switzerland E-mail wgh@wgh.ch _______________________________________________________________________ From edick at idcomm.com Wed Feb 16 11:21:07 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <000d01bf78a2$3882e240$0400c0a8@winbook> Though I could have missed it, I don't recall that it is/was ever the policy of Microsoft, through any of its customers, to distribute the source of its BASIC compiler. That would be a really handy thing to have, since one could then hack it into shape for embedded use, thereby competing with Microsoft's own products. If anyone has SOURCE code for Microsoft's BASIC interpreter, I'd be very interested to know about it. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 8:42 AM Subject: RE: Source code for BASIC >I just acquired Microsoft 8K basic in ROM for OSI on paper >tape. I currently have no facility to read it, so I don't >know if it is source or object. The tape seems to be in >good shape (doesn't seem to be fragile) so it should be >good for a few passes through a reader. I'll let you know. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini, >> Jr. >> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 8:43 PM >> To: ClassCompList >> Subject: Source code for BASIC >> >> >> Here's another question...does anyone have a pointer to the >> source code for >> a 6502-based BASIC interpreter that's ROMable? >> >> Rich >> >> [ Rich Cini/WUGNET >> [ ClubWin!/CW1 >> [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >> [ Collector of "classic" computers >> [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >> <================ reply separator =================> >> >> >> From aek at spies.com Wed Feb 16 11:56:34 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <200002161756.JAA01182@spies.com> "> I just acquired Microsoft 8K basic in ROM for OSI on paper > tape. Tim Shoppa mentioned having some early MS source on AFC. What exactly do you have, Tim? " On a related note, I've got source code here to some (many? most?) of the early Microsoft products - you know, things like MBASIC, etc., that say at the top: .TITLE BASIC Mpu 8080/8085/Z80/8086 (5.11) Bill Gates/Paul Allen INCLUDE BASIC.MAC ;SUBTTL VERSION 5.11 -- NOT MANY FEATURES TO GO ;COPYRIGHT 1975 BILL GATES AND PAUL ALLEN ;BILL GATES WROTE A LOT OF STUFF ;PAUL ALLEN WROTE OTHER STUFF AND FAST CODE ;MONTE DAVIDOFF WROTE THE MATH PACKAGE ;ORIGINALLY WRITTEN ON THE PDP-10 FROM ;FEBRUARY 9 TO APRIL 9 1975 " From kla at helios.augustana.edu Wed Feb 16 12:09:49 2000 From: kla at helios.augustana.edu (Kevin L. Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:44 2005 Subject: KB9IUA Message-ID: For the record, I'm KB9IUA (Amateur Extra Class and 99% CW Morse op only). Cheers/73. Kevin * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent the administration of Augustana College. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Feb 16 12:20:58 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000215232909.3a6796c6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: Hi Joe, According to my parts list, the 7963 is a 304meg HD. Beyond that, I don't know much about them. Were you thinking of picking the stuff up? Did you get any model numbers from the other stuff? Cheers, Aaron On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Joe wrote: > Hi, > > I spotted a HP 3000 system 37 today in a scrap place. It has two HP 7963 > drives and a bunch of other stuff that I don't recognize. Can anyone tell > me something about them? > > Joe > > At 03:52 PM 2/15/00 -0800, you wrote: > >Seconded! I don't think "helpful" comes close to describing his attitude! > > > >I think HP is a model for how classy a giant computer company can really > >be. Their attitude toward us home enthusiasts is, "well, we had the > >software ready for someone to use...why not send it out to hobbyists for > >free as well!" I could hardly believe that they not only offered me the > >full install set (full subsys tapes, everything), but then he's including > >extra system manuals and tips on avoiding installation pitfalls as well! I > >am absolutely blown away...thanks again, Stan... > > > >Cheers, > > > >Aaron > > > >On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: > > > >> On Tuesday, February 08, 2000 7:33 PM, Stan Sieler [SMTP:ss@allegro.com] > >> wrote: > >> > Hi, > >> > > >> > If you have a Classic HP 3000 (any two-digit model #), > >> > and if you received the "Y2K Safe" release of MPE recently, > >> > and if you haven't installed it yet, > >> > I have some notes that you should find interesting. > >> > > >> > (If you didn't get your Y2K Safe MPE V (which was free!), > >> > email Allan Hertling at allan_hertling@hp.com) > >> > > >> > > >> > >> Thanks for the info Stan, > >> > >> I sent an email to Allan asking about the upgrade and he was EXTREMELY > >> helpful. My system (HP 3000/42 Classic) did not have any patches applied > >> for a very long time so, he's gonna send the whole package. The best part > >> is it's absolutely FREE! > >> > >> All in all, HP has been extremely helpful in providing upgrades for my > 3000 > >> and 9000s. > >> > >> Steve Robertson - > >> > > > > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Feb 16 12:29:59 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <000216132959.25601d7a@trailing-edge.com> >Tim Shoppa mentioned having some early MS source on AFC. >What exactly do you have, Tim? I've got MBASIC 5.11 sources. This is relatively late in MBASIC's life (about the time it was being ported to the 8086) but there are comments in there referring back to 1975. I've also got home-grown disassemblies of several other Microsoft products from the late 1970's, though these are hardly "official". If someone's looking for a BASIC to run on their SBC, I think I'd go with one of the Tiny BASIC's out there myself that comes with sources. Oak.oakland.edu or another good old Simtel mirror would be a good place to start a search. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Feb 16 13:18:45 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <000a01bf78b2$a7b91660$0400c0a8@winbook> So . . . where did this set of MBASIC v5.11 sources turn up for you to snag? Are the associated files available? Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 11:48 AM Subject: RE: Source code for BASIC >>Tim Shoppa mentioned having some early MS source on AFC. >>What exactly do you have, Tim? > >I've got MBASIC 5.11 sources. This is relatively late in >MBASIC's life (about the time it was being ported to the 8086) but there >are comments in there referring back to 1975. > >I've also got home-grown disassemblies of several other Microsoft products from >the late 1970's, though these are hardly "official". > >If someone's looking for a BASIC to run on their SBC, I think I'd go >with one of the Tiny BASIC's out there myself that comes with sources. >Oak.oakland.edu or another good old Simtel mirror would be a good place >to start a search. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 16 13:24:53 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest In-Reply-To: Re: virtual hamfest (Mark Tapley) References: Message-ID: <14506.63877.849138.247939@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 16, Mark Tapley wrote: > Howdy. I'm utterly inactive but I do actually have (had? I'd better > check, may have expired) technician KB6UOH. > My wife was listening to me struggling to work up to 5 WPM code, > using our Mac Plus (am I on-topic now?) as a random code generator. She > thought it sounded kind of neat, tried it out, and was doing 10 WPM in a > few days. (grrrr!). On the way down to the test I taught her Ohm's law and > a few frequencies and talked her into taking the test. She took clean code > (and the volunteers there were begging her to try out the general code > test) and squeaked by the multiple-choice stuff and got license KB6UOI > (awww, how sweet, consecutive numbers...). > Now if we'd just get a radio and get on the air..... She thought CW sounded neat? Does she have a sister? ;) -Dave McGuire From edick at idcomm.com Wed Feb 16 13:27:30 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <001301bf78b3$e09985e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Just exactly why would you recommend a TINY BASIC as opposed to a full-up interpreter? Most SBC's support huge amounts of RAM, far in excess of what the basic interpreter should require. My earliest Intel SBC's have room for 4 24-pin EPROMs, each of which can hold 4K, and, if you use a jumpering arrangement derived from the schematic rather than from the manual, you can use the 8K parts from MOT. That gives you 32KB. Isn't that enough to support a customized version of the BASIC interpreter in addition to the required driver code? You do have to modify the I/O hooks to fit into your SBC, but you'd have to do that anyway, wouldn't you? There are some public-domain CP/M-compatible I/O handlers which use some of the CP/M i/o calls. Naturally, it's a lot of work, but you can do it, given you have the source code. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 11:48 AM Subject: RE: Source code for BASIC >>Tim Shoppa mentioned having some early MS source on AFC. >>What exactly do you have, Tim? > >I've got MBASIC 5.11 sources. This is relatively late in >MBASIC's life (about the time it was being ported to the 8086) but there >are comments in there referring back to 1975. > >I've also got home-grown disassemblies of several other Microsoft products from >the late 1970's, though these are hardly "official". > >If someone's looking for a BASIC to run on their SBC, I think I'd go >with one of the Tiny BASIC's out there myself that comes with sources. >Oak.oakland.edu or another good old Simtel mirror would be a good place >to start a search. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From jhfine at idirect.com Wed Feb 16 14:10:28 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges Message-ID: <38AB0434.7B20A49D@idirect.com> I am looking for a source for the 600 Mbyte magneto optical 5 1/4" cartridges with 512 byte per sector. Tim Shoppa has mentioned in the past that he might know where I can find some. Does anyone else? These will be used in a SONY SMO S-501 5 1/4" magneto optical disk drive. I have checked eBay, but they are usually sold as is? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 16 12:44:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Feb 15, 0 08:39:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2143 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000216/ab957085/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 16 13:11:33 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC In-Reply-To: <001101bf7891$dc6179f0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Feb 16, 0 10:24:05 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 876 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000216/a6b5baa9/attachment-0001.ksh From bill at chipware.com Wed Feb 16 15:08:00 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001201bf78c1$e834aa10$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Looking at the tape, I see that the words "END OF FILE BAS65.PTP" are punched at the end of the tape in sort of pseudo dot-matrix characters. Does the "PTP" extension tell us anything? Looking at the start of the tape: "MICRO-SOFT BAS65.PTP [2601,1260] 29-JUL-77 15:27:58" Looking through the first few feet of "real data"... No high bits, the first few bytes are: 00111011 x3b ';' (was hoping for the start of an assembly comment) 00110010 x32 '2' (nope, looks like some sort of hex...) 00110000 x30 '0' 01000001 x41 'A' 00110000 x30 '0' 00110000 x30 '0' 00110000 x30 '0' 00110011 x33 '3' 00111001 x39 '9' 01000001 x41 'A' > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 2:12 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Source code for BASIC > > > > > > I just acquired Microsoft 8K basic in ROM for OSI on paper > > tape. I currently have no facility to read it, so I don't > > know if it is source or object. The tape seems to be in > > Read the first few characters by hand -- it's most likely to be either > binary or ascii. Put the tape so that the row of small holes is nearer > the bottom, then the top hole is the MSB. Each column of 8 (data) holes > is a character, a hole is a 1, no hole is a space. > > If the top (bit 7) hole is used at all, then either it's a text tape with > parity (in which case the number of holes in a column will always be > either odd or even), or it's a binary tape > > If only the bottom 7 holes are used, then it's probably a text encoding, > but this doesn't mean it's source code. It could well be (and I suspect > it is) an Intel-hex object tape. But reading a few characters > will tell you. > > -tony > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Feb 16 15:15:43 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <000216161543.25601dc2@trailing-edge.com> >Just exactly why would you recommend a TINY BASIC as opposed to a full-up >interpreter? Most SBC's support huge amounts of RAM, far in excess of what >the basic interpreter should require. Heck, we can get SBC's of just a few square inches with a Pentium Pro, 128 Mbytes of RAM, SVGA output, and a hard drive interface, why not just install Windows NT on the SBC so you can run the latest and greatest Visual BASIC++++? Well, I took your argument there a little too far, but I hope you get the point: Use the tools appropriate to the job. And for most SBC applications, the floating point capabilities and libraries as well as the file I/O facilities of a "full-up" BASIC are overkill. OTOH most Tiny Basic implementations are perfect for the bit-banging and input/output that a SBC is often called upon to do. (And yes, I know of other cases where Windows NT and 128 Mbytes of RAM on the SBC are appropriate, but I don't think any of us want to go down that road!) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Wed Feb 16 15:31:35 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 06:44:14PM +0000 References: Message-ID: <20000216163135.B20438@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 06:44:14PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > Hmmm.. I've tried to learn morse several times, and failed every single > time. I don't know why, but it just doesn't seem to 'click' with me. Well, having an actual use for it makes it a lot easier to remember. My best friend and I learned Morse code in 6th grade so that we could pass notes in class that no one could understand. Naturally that later fizzled, the 7th grade teacher was a ham and the 8th grade teacher was a radio operator in the Norwegian underground in WW2, so much for that idea! But learning Morse code is a lot easier than memorizing the ASCII table, there are way fewer characters... > It would be considerably more entertaining to attmept to output data > packets directly from the 11/44 without using a TNC. A DUP11 might be > able to produce a suitable data format. A KMC11 + a suitable comms card > certainly could. I *always* wanted to do that, I actually bought a DUP11 years ago for this purpose but never dug up documentation on it until recently. You'd need to build some kind of external clock (PLL really I guess) that synchronized to the bit transitions of AX.25, shouldn't be a very big deal though. Stupid question: what comes out of the other side of a ham TNC these days? It used to be Bell 202 modem tones at 1200 baud HDX, over an FM voice signal, it *can't* still be that easy though can it? Some place I still have the 202 style TU I built from a kit (hmm, Fletcher TU-1200 maybe, or did I just make that up?) to go with the DUP11 before I dropped the ball. > > to lash up an RTTY program for the PDP, to send and recieve Baudot > > in real time. > > DL11s can be jumpered for 5 bits and 1.5 stop bits IIRC. Hmm, any idea how well that really interacts with real TTYs? I thought they used 1.4xxx stop bits or something (really whatever scrap of a rotation is left over after all 5 bits get sampled and before the selector doodad hits the stop again). I suppose you're unlikely to type fast enough on a real TTY to cause framing errors... Anyway the *true* joy of Baudot is that ridiculous keyboard layout, and all that crap with FIGS and LTRS, using a computer would miss some of the wackiness. Geez, I miss my model 19... John Wilson D Bit From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Feb 16 15:49:57 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <000216164957.25601dcb@trailing-edge.com> >Looking at the tape, I see that the words "END OF FILE BAS65.PTP" >are punched at the end of the tape in sort of pseudo dot-matrix >characters. Does the "PTP" extension tell us anything? "Paper TaPe" in DEC-ese. > Looking at >the start of the tape: >"MICRO-SOFT BAS65.PTP [2601,1260] 29-JUL-77 15:27:58" That makes sense, Microsoft was cross-assembling on PDP-10's at the time, and [2601,1260] would be the PPN code for an account. For the first couple of years Microsoft was using the hyphenated form. >Looking through the first few feet of "real data"... > >No high bits, the first few bytes are: >00111011 x3b ';' (was hoping for the start of an assembly comment) >00110010 x32 '2' (nope, looks like some sort of hex...) >00110000 x30 '0' >01000001 x41 'A' >00110000 x30 '0' >00110000 x30 '0' >00110000 x30 '0' >00110011 x33 '3' >00111001 x39 '9' >01000001 x41 'A' That makes some sense, "20" is the 6502 opcode for a JSR (jump to subroutine). The next two bytes are presumably the subroutine's address, and "39" is the 6502 opcode for an AND abolute,Y instruction. Tim. From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Feb 16 16:58:24 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: <20000216163135.B20438@dbit.dbit.com>; from John Wilson on Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 04:31:35PM -0500 References: <20000216163135.B20438@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000216155824.F25662@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 04:31:35PM -0500, John Wilson wrote: > in the Norwegian underground in WW2, so much for that idea! But learning > Morse code is a lot easier than memorizing the ASCII table, there are way > fewer characters... I haven't done that either, just remember that A is dec. 65 and CR/LF is 0d0a (but I can't remember which is which)... in spite of having written programs more or less continuously since 1986, I still need an ASCII chart sometimes. > > Stupid question: what comes out of the other side of a ham TNC these days? > It used to be Bell 202 modem tones at 1200 baud HDX, over an FM voice signal, > it *can't* still be that easy though can it? Some place I still have the Yeah 1200 baud AFSK hasn't changed but there are many new methods of doing more-reliable data transfer on HF and also faster speeds on other frequencies. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From edick at idcomm.com Wed Feb 16 16:59:05 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <000c01bf78d1$6f1af980$0400c0a8@winbook> No, I don't get the point. The TINY BASIC with which I worked back in the mid-'70's required more ascii because it was necessary to build the features normally contained in the "full-up" version. If one were to have access to the source code for the interpreter, one could then migrate various function classes to external libraries which would be incorporated into the ROM set only if they were needed. If you didn't need the FP library or the high-precision math library, or the file I/O library, you'd simply leave it out. However, it's MUCH easier to add enough ROM code space by using a couple already present sockets, if you do need string processing or floating point functions, it's MUCH easier to use them within the framework of BASIC than to roll-yer-own implementation of a public domain FP package. If you put the ascii basic code in one ROM and put the interpreter in another, it makes a big difference whether you use TINY basic rather than a product like MSBasic v5.11. TINY is OK for some applications, but it doesn't do a lot of the nie things the "real" basic does. That's why you have to use more code to build the functions. If you use them often, these little functions can become large and burdensome. The BASIC source, meaning the stuff you write and feed to the interpreter, is often MUCH easier to fit into a small system's ROM for a given task than the equivalent TINY BASIC implementation simply because it's less verbose than Tiny BASIC code for the same task. YMMV, of course, but IF you write an interface to an LCD so that PRINT uses it, just being able enter '?' as a token already saves space. Of course, if you happened to have a tokenizer for the basic, or, for that matter, TINY BASIC, you'll save space. Unfortunately, I've never had a tokenized TINY BASIC. That, basically, (no pun intended) is the reason a REAL source for a REAL basic interpreter would be interesting. After all, that's one of the features that's made FORTH as popular as it is. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 2:32 PM Subject: Re: Source code for BASIC >>Just exactly why would you recommend a TINY BASIC as opposed to a full-up >>interpreter? Most SBC's support huge amounts of RAM, far in excess of what >>the basic interpreter should require. > >Heck, we can get SBC's of just a few square inches with a Pentium Pro, 128 >Mbytes of RAM, SVGA output, and a hard drive interface, why not just install >Windows NT on the SBC so you can run the latest and greatest Visual BASIC++++? > >Well, I took your argument there a little too far, but I hope you get the >point: Use the tools appropriate to the job. And for most SBC applications, >the floating point capabilities and libraries as well as the file I/O >facilities of a "full-up" BASIC are overkill. OTOH most Tiny Basic >implementations are perfect for the bit-banging and input/output that a >SBC is often called upon to do. > >(And yes, I know of other cases where Windows NT and 128 Mbytes of RAM on >the SBC are appropriate, but I don't think any of us want to go down that >road!) > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 16 17:04:46 2000 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: how do I decode 157.55.85.212 to a url? In-Reply-To: <200002120216.SAA11859@fraser.sfu.ca> References: <200002120216.SAA11859@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <0+4E9JAO0yq4EwsS@joules0.demon.co.uk> In article <200002120216.SAA11859@fraser.sfu.ca>, Kevin McQuiggin writes >Use nslookup. "nslookup (IP address)". No parentheses. > >nslookup is a Unix utility, run it at the shell prompt. There will likely >be versions available for other systems as well. > >Alternatively, visit the NIC (www.internic.net) and you can run the IP >address through their database there. I find http://swhois.net useful as a replacement for whois and nslookup as if you enter an IP address it gives the details of the domain which owns it, if you give a network address it gives the registrant of the netblock and if you give it a domain name then it gives the details one would expect from a whois. All this from one search box on a web form ;-) BTW 157.54.0.0 to 157.60.0.0 is registered to microsoft.com ;-) postmasternetwork.net uses enameserv.com for its DNS so they are a fair bet as the providers for the website that you quote. Whilst I am posting, Allison, could you please e-mail me privately with the full details as to how to break in to the MicroVAX 2000 which I have just been given? I know I should have printed it last time. At present it boots to a $ prompt with no login prompt but if I try to run AUTHORIZE it just puts up the details of time used etc and hangs. -- Regards Pete From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 16 17:51:22 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Macintosh Portable problems Message-ID: <20000216235122.23068.qmail@hotmail.com> Finally got my Mac Portable battery rebuilt, the thing runs great! But I think I have a problem. Whenever I check the "Battery" DA or the battery gauge on the menu bar, the batteries never seem to be charged up more than half way. Anybody got any ideas? ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, Double FDD, GeoRam 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 18:31:51 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Ham population stats Message-ID: <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Wilson wrote: > On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 06:44:14PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > Hmmm.. I've tried to learn morse several times, and failed every single > > time. I don't know why, but it just doesn't seem to 'click' with me. > > Well, having an actual use for it makes it a lot easier to remember. My > best friend and I learned Morse code in 6th grade so that we could pass > notes in class that no one could understand. Naturally that later fizzled, > the 7th grade teacher was a ham and the 8th grade teacher was a radio > operator in the Norwegian underground in WW2, so much for that idea! My younger brother did that as a kid, too. The teacher tapped back "cut it out" when they tried it during a test. > I *always* wanted to do that, I actually bought a DUP11 years ago for this > purpose but never dug up documentation on it until recently. You'd need to > build some kind of external clock (PLL really I guess) that synchronized to > the bit transitions of AX.25, shouldn't be a very big deal though. My knowledge of sync serial comes from years of working with third party devices on DEC equipment, but here goes... If the DUP-11 has a COM5025 serial chip on it then what it's expecting is something like a "standard" bit-rate on its input connector. With the right cable, I'd expect to feed it clocking through pins 15 and 17 on a DB-25 at EIA levels (+/- 12VDC). We used to have racks of "modem eliminators" that were effectively null-modem devices that would provide clocks to DTE equipment on both sides. There were typically various options to set as well, bit rate being chief among them. Most of ours were set to between 9600 and 56Kbps with a couple set to 64kpbs and one to 128kbps for reproducing environments of our European customers. Sync serial has no start bits, no stop bits, just bits. With protocols like SDLC, there's a "flag byte" of 0x7E (0111 1110) that the receiving hardware uses to determine the start and stop of a packet. One efficiency of sync hardware is you aren't trasmitting 10 bits to communicate 8. The downside is extra hardware on both ends and slightly more expensive cables to send it all. If I'm confusing the DUP-11 with other DEC cards that use the COM5025, sorry. The original Software Results Corp. COMBOARD used that chip because it was identical to whatever Qbus card we used to use when we were shipping the HASPBOX (a PDP-11 with sync serial and a DPV-11 to communicate via parallel to a PDP-11/70 or VAX-11/7xx). > Stupid question: what comes out of the other side of a ham TNC these days? > It used to be Bell 202 modem tones at 1200 baud HDX, over an FM voice signal, > it *can't* still be that easy though can it? In the 2 meter band in the U.S., at least, Hams are restricted to 1200 baud. AFAIK, it is that simple. There are "pocket TNCs" that are little more than audio modulator circuits that depend on the CPU in your PeeCee to produce a valid AX.25 bitstream. I've seen it work with an HP-95LX - "pocket packet". -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 16 17:19:11 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC In-Reply-To: <001201bf78c1$e834aa10$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Feb 16, 0 04:08:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 876 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000216/076ecce7/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 16 17:27:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: <20000216163135.B20438@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Feb 16, 0 04:31:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2671 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000216/4ab27985/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 16 19:07:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 16, 0 04:31:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 374 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000217/2a54f4f0/attachment-0001.ksh From mac at Wireless.Com Wed Feb 16 19:24:53 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Macintosh Portable problems In-Reply-To: <20000216235122.23068.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, David Vohs wrote: > Finally got my Mac Portable battery rebuilt, the thing runs great! But I > think I have a problem. Whenever I check the "Battery" DA or the battery > gauge on the menu bar, the batteries never seem to be charged up more than > half way. Anybody got any ideas? > ____________________________________________________________ > David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. I assume you used sealed lead-acid batteries? -Mike From rcini at msn.com Wed Feb 16 19:37:43 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: TOUCH for DOS/Windows Message-ID: <008001bf78e7$f4ba6ce0$6464a8c0@office1> Hello, all: Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH utility?? Rich [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Feb 16 19:57:47 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com>; from Ethan Dicks on Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 04:31:51PM -0800 References: <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000216185747.D26896@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 04:31:51PM -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: > In the 2 meter band in the U.S., at least, Hams are restricted to 1200 baud. No, not exactly. But we are limited to the same bandwidth as an FM voice channel, so there is a practical limit. 9600 baud fits into the permissible deviation well enough and is commonly used on 2 meters. (Doing true FSK rather than an audio simulation of FSK helps minimize the bandwidth used.) More speed might be possible with the kinds of fancy tricks that gave us 56K landline modems (and some hams experiment with that kind of stuff). On 440MHz and above there are some 100khz channels available. For those, 56K is the most popular high-speed mode (but pretty scarce at that). You need a modem that outputs a 10 meter carrier pre-modulated with the signal, and a transverter to get from there to the desired frequency; so that makes it expensive (~$1000 to fully equip a station with new equipment) and that's why it's not really common IMO. There have also been experiments with 2 and 10 mbps microwave links using gunn diode transceivers and ethernet cards and slower network cards. And now that spread-spectrum is wide open for experimentation without any STA's required, I expect that to be the next hotbed of activity. Most or all of the no-license-required wireless ethernet devices operate in ham bands (we have to share the bandwidth with them), so it's possible and legal to use high-gain antennae and perhaps bigger power amps to use that kind of equipment for long- distance links. The new regs require dynamic control of output power though - you can't output any more power than is necessary to maintain the link, and the control of it must be automated. But so far the fastest I'm doing is 9600 baud (on 2 meters). -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From liste at artware.qc.ca Wed Feb 16 19:59:19 2000 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: TOUCH for DOS/Windows In-Reply-To: <008001bf78e7$f4ba6ce0$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: On 17-Feb-00 Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > Hello, all: > > Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH > utility?? echo "" >filename.txt Oh! You want to use the real function of touch. Try virtually unix (http://www.itribe.net/virtunix/) It's a good starting point to get all the unix tools win32 so pitifully lacks. Otherwise, Simtel? -Philip From rws at enteract.com Wed Feb 16 20:19:16 2000 From: rws at enteract.com (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: TOUCH for DOS/Windows In-Reply-To: <008001bf78e7$f4ba6ce0$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH utility?? In DR-DOS, yes. It's called TOUCH. In MS-DOS (and PC-DOS), no. You have to fake it using: copy filename+nul: filename Richard Schauer rws@enteract.com From blakeman at creative-net.net Wed Feb 16 08:46:41 2000 From: blakeman at creative-net.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: TOUCH for DOS/Windows Message-ID: <38ab6111.52a8.0@creative-net.net> Shareware.com has a Unix like set of DOS utils called DOSix available for free download at: http://shareware.cnet.com/shareware/0-13628-500-1259888.html?tag=st.sw.16167_501_1.lst.titledetail Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH utility?? > >Rich >[ Rich Cini/WUGNET >[ ClubWin!/CW1 >[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >[ Collector of "classic" computers >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ ><================ reply separator =================> > > > > From marvin at rain.org Tue Feb 15 20:50:30 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: TOUCH for DOS/Windows References: <008001bf78e7$f4ba6ce0$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: <38AA1076.59EAB84F@rain.org> "Richard A. Cini, Jr." wrote: > > Hello, all: > > Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH utility?? Yes there is, but it has been years since I've seen it. IIRC, it is also called TOUCH. ... Just did a quick search under Alta Vista and it showed up at the Simtel site. URL: http://ftp.unicamp.br/simtel.net/msdos/dirutl-bydate.html and just search the page for "touch". From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 22:28:07 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Ham population stats Message-ID: <20000217042807.2895.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Shawn T. Rutledge" wrote: > On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 04:31:51PM -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > In the 2 meter band in the U.S., at least, Hams are restricted to 1200 > baud. > > No, not exactly. But we are limited to the same bandwidth as an FM > voice channel, so there is a practical limit. 9600 baud fits into the > permissible deviation well enough and is commonly used on 2 meters. I guess things changed when I wasn't looking. Thanks for the update. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Feb 16 23:11:06 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Send/Receive (BAUDOT) in GWBASIC (was Ham Stats) In-Reply-To: <20000216163135.B20438@dbit.dbit.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000216211106.02fd5d98@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: Further to this discussion of 5 bit characters on a DL11, this was also possible on the PCjr. I wrote a BASIC send/receive RTTY program for the PCjr in 1985. It used an esoteric mode of the particular serial chip on the PCjr, to support 5 data bits and 1.5 stop bits. The DTR pin of the serial port was used to toggle the radio from transmit to receive. My modem was homebrew, built around an XR2211 (IIRC) chip. I still have the modem buried in the crawlspace somewhere. I used this program/modem for many years, this was in the days before all-mode TNCs. Here's the source code, in GWBASIC. Use at will. ============================================== 10 '**************************************************************************** 20 '* PCjr RTTY * 30 '* By * 40 '* Kevin McQuiggin * 50 '* VE7CPT * 60 '* * 70 '* Version 1.2 April 1985. 80 '* Copyright K. McQuiggin 1985. * 90 '**************************************************************************** 100 '* 110 '* This package provides full transceive operation for RTTY on the IBM PCjr. 120 '* Operation takes place through the use of function keys F1 --> F7 130 '* which provide full TX/RX switching, selection of data rate from 45 to 300 140 '* baud and choice of ASCII or BAUDOT modes. 150 ' 160 '*************************************************************************** 170 ' 180 ' Initialization of constants and ASCII/BAUDOT conversion tables: 190 ' 200 DIM MODE$(1), TXRX$(1), BAUD$(6), HEXBAUD(6), ATOB$(122), BTOA$(31,1), CHANGE$(2) 210 MODE$(0)="Ascii": MODE$(1)="Baudot" 220 TXRX$(0)="TX": TXRX$(1)="RX" 230 BAUD$(0)=" 45": BAUD$(1)=" 50": BAUD$(2)=" 57": BAUD$(3)=" 75" 240 BAUD$(4)=" 78": BAUD$(5)="110": BAUD$(6)="300" 250 HEXBAUD(0)=&H9B5: HEXBAUD(1)=&H8BD: HEXBAUD(2)=&H7AA: HEXBAUD(3)=&H5D3 260 HEXBAUD(4)=&H59A: HEXBAUD(5)=&H1A1: HEXBAUD(6)=&H175 270 CHANGE$(0)=CHR$(&H1F): CHANGE$(1)=CHR$(&H1B): CHANGE$(2)=CHR$(0) 280 ' 290 ' Initialize BAUDOT to ASCII Conversion table (BTOA$). 300 FOR I=0 TO 1:FOR J=0 TO 31 310 READ BTOA$(J,I) 320 NEXT:NEXT 330 BTOA$(2,0)=CHR$(10): BTOA$(8,0)=CHR$(13) 340 BTOA$(2,1)=CHR$(10): BTOA$(8,1)=CHR$(13) 350 BTOA$(5,1)=CHR$(7) 360 ' 370 ' Initialize ASCII to BAUDOT table (ATOB$). 380 ATOB$(0)=CHR$(&H40): ATOB$(7)=CHR$(&H24) 390 ATOB$(10)=CHR$(&H42): ATOB$(13)=CHR$(&H48) 400 RESTORE 2320: FOR I=32 TO 63: READ J: ATOB$(I)=CHR$(J): NEXT 410 RESTORE 2350: FOR I=65 TO 90: READ J: ATOB$(I)=CHR$(J): NEXT 420 RESTORE 2350: FOR I=97 TO 122: READ J: ATOB$(I)=CHR$(J): NEXT 430 ' 440 '*************************************************************************** 450 ASCII=0: BAUDOT=1 460 LTRS=31: FIGS=27 470 TX=0: RX=1 480 ' 490 P=0 ' initial baud rate 45 500 TXRX=1 ' receive state 510 MODE=1 ' Baudot mode 520 SHIFT=0 ' LTRS shift 530 CANNED=0 ' No canned messages 540 OUT &H3FC,0 ' Rig to RX state 550 ' 560 '************************************************************************** 570 ' 580 ' Set initial screen conditions 590 KEY OFF: CLS 600 ' 610 ' Trap F1 --> F7 620 KEY(1) ON: KEY(2) ON: KEY(3) ON: KEY(4) ON: KEY(5) ON: KEY(6) ON: KEY(7) ON 630 ON KEY(1) GOSUB 1670 640 ON KEY(2) GOSUB 1780 650 ON KEY(3) GOSUB 1850 660 ON KEY(4) GOSUB 1930 670 ON KEY(5) GOSUB 2060 680 ON KEY(6) GOSUB 2130 690 ON KEY(7) GOSUB 2180 700 ' 710 ' Error trapping routine 720 ON ERROR GOTO 2360 730 ' 740 '************************************************************************** 750 ' 760 ' Print User Introductory Messages. 770 PRINT TAB(10)"* * PCjr RTTY * *":PRINT TAB(12)"By K. McQuiggin":PRINT TAB(17)"VE7CPT" 780 PRINT:PRINT: PRINT "This package offers full ASCII/BAUDOT" 790 PRINT "transceive operation on the IBM PCjr at" 800 PRINT "data rates from 45 to 300 Baud." 810 PRINT: PRINT "Function Keys operate as follows:" 820 PRINT: PRINT "F1:";TAB(10)"ASCII <--> BAUDOT": PRINT "F2:";TAB(10)"Increase Baud Rate": PRINT "F3:";TAB(10)"Decrease Baud Rate":PRINT "F4:";TAB(10)"TRANSMIT <--> RECEIVE": PRINT "F5:";TAB(10)"EXIT":PRINT "F6:";TAB(10)"Force unshift" 830 PRINT "F7:";TAB(10)"Start/Stop Canned Messages": PRINT: PRINT 840 INPUT "Press ENTER to Continue ",A$ 850 ' 860 '*************************************************************************** 870 ' 880 ' Execution begins. 890 CLS 900 OPEN "scrn:" FOR OUTPUT AS #2 ' Init files and begin operation. 910 GOSUB 1520 920 GOSUB 1430 930 GOSUB 1350 940 GOTO 1120 950 ' 960 '*************************************************************************** 970 ' ASCII Transmit Routine. 980 GOSUB 1590 990 IF CHAR$ = "" THEN GOTO 980 1000 PRINT #1, CHAR$; 1010 PRINT #2, CHAR$; 1020 GOTO 980 1030 ' 1040 '************************************************************************* 1050 ' ASCII Receive Routine. 1060 IF EOF(1) THEN GOTO 1060 1070 CHAR$=INPUT$(LOC(1),#1) 1080 PRINT #2, CHAR$; 1090 GOTO 1060 1100 ' 1110 '*************************************************************************** 1120 ' BAUDOT Receive Routine. 1130 IF EOF(1) THEN 1130 1140 CHAR=ASC(INPUT$(LOC(1),#1)) 1150 IF CHAR > 31 THEN GOTO 1130 1160 IF CHAR = FIGS THEN SHIFT=1 1170 IF CHAR = LTRS THEN SHIFT=0 1180 IF CHAR <> FIGS AND CHAR <> LTRS THEN PRINT #2,BTOA$(CHAR,SHIFT); 1190 GOTO 1130 1200 ' 1210 '************************************************************************** 1220 ' BAUDOT Transmit routine. 1230 SHIFT$=CHANGE$(0) 1240 GOSUB 1590 1250 IF CHAR$ = "" THEN GOTO 1240 1260 PRINT #2,CHAR$; 1270 IF ASC(CHAR$) > 122 THEN CHAR$=CHR$(0) 1280 CHAR$=ATOB$(ASC(CHAR$)) 1290 S=(ASC(CHAR$) AND &H60)/32 1300 CHAR$=CHR$(ASC(CHAR$) AND &H1F) 1310 IF S=2 OR CHANGE$(S) = SHIFT$ THEN PRINT #1,CHAR$; ELSE PRINT #1,CHANGE$(S);CHAR$;: SHIFT$=CHANGE$(S) 1320 GOTO 1240 1330 ' 1340 '************************************************************************** 1350 ' Utility Routine to PRINT STATUS LINE. 1360 I=CSRLIN: J=POS(0) 1370 LOCATE 25,1 1380 PRINT "MODE: ";MODE$(MODE);TAB(14) "RATE: ";TAB(20) BAUD$(P);TAB(24) "Baud";TAB(30) "STATE: ";TXRX$(TXRX); 1390 LOCATE I,J 1400 RETURN 1410 ' 1420 '************************************************************************** 1430 ' Utility Routine to SET BAUD RATE TO HEXBAUD(P). 1440 I=INP(&H3FB)+128 1450 OUT &H3FB,I 1460 OUT &H3F8,(HEXBAUD(P) AND &HFF) 1470 OUT &H3F9,(((HEXBAUD(P) AND &HFF00)/256) AND &HFF) 1480 OUT &H3FB,(I-128) 1490 RETURN 1500 ' 1510 '************************************************************************** 1520 ' Utility Routine to OPEN COM1 FOR CURRENT MODE. 1530 CLOSE #1 1540 IF MODE = ASCII THEN OPEN "com1:75,n,7,1,rs,cs,ds,cd" AS #1 ELSE OPEN "com1:75,n,5,2,rs,cs,ds,cd" AS #1 1550 OUT &H3FC,(INP(&H3FC) AND &HFE) 1560 RETURN 1570 ' 1580 '************************************************************************** 1590 ' Utility Routine to read characters from keyboard or process canned msg. 1600 CHAR$=INKEY$ 1610 IF NOT CANNED THEN RETURN 1620 CHAR$=MID$(MSG$,NEXTCHAR,1) 1630 NEXTCHAR=NEXTCHAR+1: IF NEXTCHAR > LEN(MSG$) THEN NEXTCHAR=1 1640 RETURN 1650 ' 1660 '************************************************************************** 1670 ' Routine "F1" Change Mode ASCII <--> BAUDOT. 1680 IF MODE = ASCII THEN GOTO 1730 1690 MODE=ASCII: GOSUB 1520: GOSUB 1350 1700 IF TXRX = TX THEN RETURN 970 1710 RETURN 1050 1720 ' 1730 MODE=BAUDOT: GOSUB 1520: GOSUB 1350 1740 IF TXRX = TX THEN RETURN 1220 1750 RETURN 1120 1760 ' 1770 '************************************************************************** 1780 ' Routine "F2" Increase Baud Rate. 1790 P=(P+1) MOD 7 1800 GOSUB 1430 1810 GOSUB 1350 1820 RETURN 1830 ' 1840 '************************************************************************** 1850 ' Routine "F3" Decrease Baud Rate. 1860 P=P-1 1870 IF P < 0 THEN P=6 1880 GOSUB 1430 1890 GOSUB 1350 1900 RETURN 1910 ' 1920 '************************************************************************** 1930 ' Routine "F4" Change Status TX <--> RX. 1940 I=INP(&H3FC) AND &H1 1950 IF I = 0 THEN OUT &H3FC,(INP(&H3FC) OR &H1) ELSE OUT &H3FC,(INP(&H3FC) AND &HFE) 1960 IF TXRX = TX THEN GOTO 2010 1970 TXRX=TX: GOSUB 1350 1980 IF MODE = BAUDOT THEN RETURN 1220 1990 RETURN 970 2000 ' 2010 TXRX=RX: GOSUB 1350 2020 IF MODE = BAUDOT THEN RETURN 1120 2030 RETURN 1050 2040 ' 2050 '************************************************************************** 2060 ' Routine "F5" EXIT. 2070 CLOSE #1: CLOSE #2 ' Close all files 2080 OUT &H3FC,0 ' Make sure rig is left in RX mode 2090 ON ERROR GOTO: KEY OFF: WIDTH 80: CLS ' Restore standard states 2100 END 2110 ' 2120 '************************************************************************** 2130 ' Routine "F6" Force "unshift" on Receive. 2140 SHIFT=0 2150 RETURN 2160 ' 2170 '************************************************************************** 2180 ' Routine "F7" Start/Stop transmission of Canned Message. 2190 CANNED=NOT CANNED 2200 MSG$=CHR$(10)+"CQ CQ CQ CQ CQ"+CHR$(10)+"DE"+CHR$(10)+"VE7CPT VE7CPT VE7CPT " 2210 NEXTCHAR=1 2220 RETURN 2230 ' 2240 '************************************************************************** 2250 '************************************************************************** 2260 '* D A T A A R E A * 2270 '************************************************************************** 2280 ' 2290 ' BAUDOT to ASCII Conversion Table 2300 DATA "",E,LF,A," ",S,I,U,CR,D,R,J,N,F,C,K,T,Z,L,W,H,Y,P,Q,O,B,G,"",M,X,V,"" 2310 DATA "",3,LF,-," ",BELL,8,7,CR,$,4,"'",",","",":",(,5,"'",),2,#,6,0,1,9,?,&,"",.,/,;,"" 2320 ' 2330 ' ASCII to BAUDOT Conversion Table ( in Hexadecimal ). 2340 DATA &h44,0,&h31,&h34,&h29,0,0,&h2b,&h2f,&h32,0,0,&h2c,&h23,&h3c,&h3d,&h36,&h37,& h33,&h21,&h2a,&h30,&h35,&h27,&h26,&h38,&h2e,&h3e,0,0,0,&h39 2350 DATA &h03,&h19,&h0e,&h09,&h01,&h0d,&h1a,&h14,&h06,&h0b,&h0f,&h12,&h1c,&h0c,&h18,& h16,&h17,&h0a,&h05,&h10,&h07,&h1e,&h13,&h1d,&h15,&h11 2360 RESUME ============================================== Kevin At 04:31 PM 00/02/16 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 06:44:14PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >> Hmmm.. I've tried to learn morse several times, and failed every single >> time. I don't know why, but it just doesn't seem to 'click' with me. > >Well, having an actual use for it makes it a lot easier to remember. My >best friend and I learned Morse code in 6th grade so that we could pass >notes in class that no one could understand. Naturally that later fizzled, >the 7th grade teacher was a ham and the 8th grade teacher was a radio operator >in the Norwegian underground in WW2, so much for that idea! But learning >Morse code is a lot easier than memorizing the ASCII table, there are way >fewer characters... > >> It would be considerably more entertaining to attmept to output data >> packets directly from the 11/44 without using a TNC. A DUP11 might be >> able to produce a suitable data format. A KMC11 + a suitable comms card >> certainly could. > >I *always* wanted to do that, I actually bought a DUP11 years ago for this >purpose but never dug up documentation on it until recently. You'd need to >build some kind of external clock (PLL really I guess) that synchronized to >the bit transitions of AX.25, shouldn't be a very big deal though. > >Stupid question: what comes out of the other side of a ham TNC these days? >It used to be Bell 202 modem tones at 1200 baud HDX, over an FM voice signal, >it *can't* still be that easy though can it? Some place I still have the >202 style TU I built from a kit (hmm, Fletcher TU-1200 maybe, or did I just >make that up?) to go with the DUP11 before I dropped the ball. > >> > to lash up an RTTY program for the PDP, to send and recieve Baudot >> > in real time. >> >> DL11s can be jumpered for 5 bits and 1.5 stop bits IIRC. > >Hmm, any idea how well that really interacts with real TTYs? I thought they >used 1.4xxx stop bits or something (really whatever scrap of a rotation is >left over after all 5 bits get sampled and before the selector doodad hits >the stop again). I suppose you're unlikely to type fast enough on a real >TTY to cause framing errors... Anyway the *true* joy of Baudot is that >ridiculous keyboard layout, and all that crap with FIGS and LTRS, using a >computer would miss some of the wackiness. Geez, I miss my model 19... > >John Wilson >D Bit > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Wed Feb 16 23:13:56 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: <20000216185747.D26896@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> References: <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000216211356.00746d60@ferrari.sfu.ca> Hi Folks: 56K packet has been running the Vancouver area for over 5 years. We have two repeaters and a third waiting to be installed. It's on the 70 cm band. It's a TCP/IP network, UNIX based, and fully interconnected to the Internet. Kevin At 06:57 PM 00/02/16 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 04:31:51PM -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> In the 2 meter band in the U.S., at least, Hams are restricted to 1200 baud. > >No, not exactly. But we are limited to the same bandwidth as an FM >voice channel, so there is a practical limit. 9600 baud fits into the >permissible deviation well enough and is commonly used on 2 meters. (Doing >true FSK rather than an audio simulation of FSK helps minimize the bandwidth >used.) More speed might be possible with the kinds of fancy tricks that >gave us 56K landline modems (and some hams experiment with that kind of stuff). > >On 440MHz and above there are some 100khz channels available. For those, >56K is the most popular high-speed mode (but pretty scarce at that). You >need a modem that outputs a 10 meter carrier pre-modulated with the signal, >and a transverter to get from there to the desired frequency; so that makes >it expensive (~$1000 to fully equip a station with new equipment) and >that's why it's not really common IMO. There have also been experiments >with 2 and 10 mbps microwave links using gunn diode transceivers and >ethernet cards and slower network cards. And now that spread-spectrum >is wide open for experimentation without any STA's required, I expect >that to be the next hotbed of activity. Most or all of the no-license-required >wireless ethernet devices operate in ham bands (we have to share the >bandwidth with them), so it's possible and legal to use high-gain antennae >and perhaps bigger power amps to use that kind of equipment for long- >distance links. The new regs require dynamic control of output power >though - you can't output any more power than is necessary to maintain >the link, and the control of it must be automated. > >But so far the fastest I'm doing is 9600 baud (on 2 meters). > >-- > _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud > (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com > __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 16 23:15:09 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges Message-ID: <20000217051509.81785.qmail@hotmail.com> Jerome, Well if you need 1.3 GB ones, I have 90-something, mostly used but a few are new... all are rewriteable MO disks, all are HP Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Wed Feb 16 23:48:56 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000216211356.00746d60@ferrari.sfu.ca>; from Kevin McQuiggin on Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 09:13:56PM -0800 References: <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> <20000216185747.D26896@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <3.0.1.32.20000216211356.00746d60@ferrari.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <20000216224856.L19165@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 09:13:56PM -0800, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > 56K packet has been running the Vancouver area for over 5 years. We have > two repeaters and a third waiting to be installed. It's on the 70 cm band. > It's a TCP/IP network, UNIX based, and fully interconnected to the Internet. I know, that network is the envy of most other places. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From paulrsm at ameritech.net Wed Feb 16 23:54:48 2000 From: paulrsm at ameritech.net (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <20000217055854.BEJ12286.mailhost.kal.ameritech.net@paulrsm> The Merlin assembler for the Apple II came with a demo program that would disassemble the Applesoft BASIC ROMs, with comments. I can provide this disassembly to you. I think Microsoft sold their 6502 BASIC to Commodore, complete with source code. Commodore was then able to change the code as needed for their various 6502 computers. ---------- > From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. > To: ClassCompList > Subject: Source code for BASIC > Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 08:42 PM > > Here's another question...does anyone have a pointer to the source code for > a 6502-based BASIC interpreter that's ROMable? From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Feb 17 00:20:15 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: FW: DigiData 9-tracker, I/F, and software for sale Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000216222015.00937500@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Found this fellow advertising in a ham radio group. I've given him some correction on that, and offered to forward what he has to the list. I'm no DigiData expert, but he tells me that the driver software that comes with the drive is DOS-based. This tells me it's either SCSI or Pertec (SCSI most likely), and decent SCSI 9-trackers are rare. He's in Durham, NC, and I doubt he'd be looking for a mint on this thing. Whoever wants a crack at this, please contact him directly. -=-=- -=-=- >>For Sale, best offer: >> >>9-track tape drive, rack-mount >>Digidata Corp, model 1749-86-4-120-FD-UL >>w/ software, 8-10"reels, 6-8" reels >>in good working condition "Chris Slacke" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Feb 17 00:28:15 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges In-Reply-To: <38AB0434.7B20A49D@idirect.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000216222815.009512c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 15:10 16-02-2000 -0500, you wrote: >I am looking for a source for the 600 Mbyte magneto optical >5 1/4" cartridges with 512 byte per sector. Tim Shoppa >has mentioned in the past that he might know where I can Did that drive arrive yet, Jerome? Honestly, I'd be surprised if it had. I think it's still too soon. Thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Feb 17 02:05:40 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Ham population stats In-Reply-To: <20000216185747.D26896@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org>; from rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com on Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 06:57:47PM -0700 References: <20000217003151.20331.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> <20000216185747.D26896@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <20000217030540.A22055@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Feb 16, 2000 at 06:57:47PM -0700, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > No, not exactly. But we are limited to the same bandwidth as an FM > voice channel, so there is a practical limit. 9600 baud fits into the > permissible deviation well enough and is commonly used on 2 meters. (Doing > true FSK rather than an audio simulation of FSK helps minimize the bandwidth > used.) Wait, 9600 baud in an audio channel using FSK?!?!?! I failed almost every course I ever took but I coulda sworn there was some rule that you couldn't get more BPS than half the channel width with FSK? What are the tone freqs (and which is which, does the L.S.M.F.T. rule still apply?)? John Wilson D Bit From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Feb 16 19:05:39 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC Message-ID: <200002170105.UAA13119@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 16:49:57 -0500 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Looking through the first few feet of "real data"... > > > >No high bits, the first few bytes are: > >00111011 x3b ';' (was hoping for the start of an assembly comment) > >00110010 x32 '2' (nope, looks like some sort of hex...) > >00110000 x30 '0' > >01000001 x41 'A' > >00110000 x30 '0' > >00110000 x30 '0' > >00110000 x30 '0' > >00110011 x33 '3' > >00111001 x39 '9' > >01000001 x41 'A' This looks to me like MOS Technologies checksum hex format, as used on the KIM-1. > That makes some sense, "20" is the 6502 opcode for a JSR (jump to > subroutine). The next two bytes are presumably the subroutine's > address, and "39" is the 6502 opcode for an AND abolute,Y instruction. Not if it's MOS Tech. hex! The first two digits are the length of the block (in hex), then four digits of address, then the hex for the data block. There'll be a checksum on the end. In this case, we've got a 32-byte block (20 hex) starting at address A000. This format is also used on the UK101, and is accepted by many types of EPROM programmer. > Tim. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From wrm at ccii.co.za Thu Feb 17 08:46:30 2000 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: virtual hamfest was Re: couple of books, spring cleaning Message-ID: <200002171534.RAA21155@ccii.co.za> Ack! I said: >dahdidit dit dahdahdidah dididit didahdahdahdah dahdidah dit >didahdidahdit dahdidah. And of course it should be dahdahdidit dididit, d?mmit! Shows you how long ago I've played with my radios! Wouter "Where's QS1 anyway" ZS1KE From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Feb 17 09:38:09 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release Message-ID: <01BF7933.160BFA80.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Tuesday, February 15, 2000 11:29 PM, Joe [SMTP:rigdonj@intellistar.net] wrote: > Hi, > > I spotted a HP 3000 system 37 today in a scrap place. It has two HP 7963 > drives and a bunch of other stuff that I don't recognize. Can anyone tell > me something about them? > Question for the HP gurus: Since it's not too far away, I was thinking about grabbing the system. So, can I use my 3000/42 FOS tapes to reinstall the OS on the 37? Thanks. Steve Robertson - From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Feb 17 09:41:33 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges References: <3.0.5.32.20000216222815.009512c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <38AC16AD.5DC12634@idirect.com> >Bruce Lane wrote: > >I am looking for a source for the 600 Mbyte magneto optical > >5 1/4" cartridges with 512 byte per sector. Tim Shoppa > >has mentioned in the past that he might know where I can > Did that drive arrive yet, Jerome? Honestly, I'd be surprised if it had. I > think it's still too soon. Jerome Fine replies: Nothing in sight as yet. Do you possible have a tracking number? Also, was the shipment sent by pre-paid freight and I will include the shipping cost when I pay you for the drive - or is UPS supposed to collect the shipping cost when the package is delivered? Thank you again for sending it. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From kees.stravers at iae.nl Thu Feb 17 10:06:06 2000 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: Send/Receive (BAUDOT) in GWBASIC (was Ham Stats) Message-ID: <20000217160606.2F01420F1A@mail.iae.nl> On 2000-02-16 classiccmp@classiccmp.org said to kees.stravers@iae.nl cl>Hi Gang: cl>Further to this discussion of 5 bit characters on a DL11, this was cl>also possible on the PCjr. I wrote a BASIC send/receive RTTY cl>program for the PCjr in 1985. It used an esoteric mode of the cl>particular serial chip on the PCjr, to support 5 data bits and 1.5 cl>stop bits. The DTR pin of the serial port was used to toggle the cl>radio from transmit to receive. My modem was homebrew, built around cl>an XR2211 (IIRC) chip. I still have the modem buried in the cl>crawlspace somewhere. This was also possible with the serial port of a regular PC. I have been running a RTTY BBS on 144 MHz for 10 years, based on a TRS-80 Model I program I ported to the PC and extended. My program even had an interface to the nearest packet radio BBS, so RTTY users could exchange mail with packet users, and later the system could also communicate in CW (morse code) so you could send emails without having a computer. But nobody uses RTTY anymore, and even CW is on the decline, so I have taken the BBS down, no more users. Kees -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ My home page http://www.vaxarchive.org/ Info on old DEC VAX computers Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 17 11:07:08 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges In-Reply-To: <38AB0434.7B20A49D@idirect.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000217120708.210f026a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Jerome, What are you going to use the MO drive on? Just curious. I have a SMO-501 also. It's SLOW!! The transfer rate and access time are WORSE than a floppy drive. Joe At 03:10 PM 2/16/00 -0500, you wrote: >I am looking for a source for the 600 Mbyte magneto optical >5 1/4" cartridges with 512 byte per sector. Tim Shoppa >has mentioned in the past that he might know where I can >find some. Does anyone else? These will be used in a >SONY SMO S-501 5 1/4" magneto optical disk drive. > >I have checked eBay, but they are usually sold as is? > >Sincerely yours, > >Jerome Fine > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 17 11:12:53 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.20000215232909.3a6796c6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000217121253.210f155c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Aaron, At 10:20 AM 2/16/00 -0800, you wrote: >Hi Joe, > >According to my parts list, the 7963 is a 304meg HD. Yes it's 300 something Mb but it can hold up to three drives in each case! I have one here with three drives that's on a 9000 375 that I got from NASA. Beyond that, I don't >know much about them. Were you thinking of picking the stuff up? Did you >get any model numbers from the other stuff? Some of it said System 6000. That's all I got a look at. There are at least three of the short HP cabinents and all are full. I'm THINKING of picking it up but I certainly don't need it or have room for it. Why? do you want it? If so it's in Sanford, Florida. I can put you in contact with the owner and help arrange shipping but I don't have the time, money or means to ship it. The owner has the means to ship it if it's worth his while. Joe > >Cheers, > >Aaron > >On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Joe wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I spotted a HP 3000 system 37 today in a scrap place. It has two HP 7963 >> drives and a bunch of other stuff that I don't recognize. Can anyone tell >> me something about them? >> >> Joe >> >> At 03:52 PM 2/15/00 -0800, you wrote: >> >Seconded! I don't think "helpful" comes close to describing his attitude! >> > >> >I think HP is a model for how classy a giant computer company can really >> >be. Their attitude toward us home enthusiasts is, "well, we had the >> >software ready for someone to use...why not send it out to hobbyists for >> >free as well!" I could hardly believe that they not only offered me the >> >full install set (full subsys tapes, everything), but then he's including >> >extra system manuals and tips on avoiding installation pitfalls as well! I >> >am absolutely blown away...thanks again, Stan... >> > >> >Cheers, >> > >> >Aaron >> > >> >On Tue, 15 Feb 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: >> > >> >> On Tuesday, February 08, 2000 7:33 PM, Stan Sieler [SMTP:ss@allegro.com] >> >> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> >> > >> >> > If you have a Classic HP 3000 (any two-digit model #), >> >> > and if you received the "Y2K Safe" release of MPE recently, >> >> > and if you haven't installed it yet, >> >> > I have some notes that you should find interesting. >> >> > >> >> > (If you didn't get your Y2K Safe MPE V (which was free!), >> >> > email Allan Hertling at allan_hertling@hp.com) >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> Thanks for the info Stan, >> >> >> >> I sent an email to Allan asking about the upgrade and he was EXTREMELY >> >> helpful. My system (HP 3000/42 Classic) did not have any patches applied >> >> for a very long time so, he's gonna send the whole package. The best part >> >> is it's absolutely FREE! >> >> >> >> All in all, HP has been extremely helpful in providing upgrades for my >> 3000 >> >> and 9000s. >> >> >> >> Steve Robertson - >> >> >> > >> > >> > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 17 11:25:39 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:45 2005 Subject: TOUCH for DOS/Windows In-Reply-To: <008001bf78e7$f4ba6ce0$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000217122539.210fa058@mailhost.intellistar.net> Rich, Yeap, there was one is the DOS PowerTools book. I'll email it directly to you. Joe At 08:37 PM 2/16/00 -0500, you wrote: >Hello, all: > > Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH utility?? > >Rich >[ Rich Cini/WUGNET >[ ClubWin!/CW1 >[ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking >[ Collector of "classic" computers >[ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ ><================ reply separator =================> > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Feb 17 11:07:27 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges Message-ID: <007801bf7969$7e445e40$0400c0a8@winbook> A friend of mine and I had about a dozen of those SMO-501's back in about '89 or '90. We cleaned and upgraded them. Their performance on a PC of that era was comparable to the previous generation of PC-based SCSI hard disks. It was not impressive, but it wasn't terribly slow. We had so much trouble keeping them at $1k each that I never used one myself at all. They were just too valuable to keep. From what I remember, their performance was more or less comparable to my Iomega 8" Bernoulli Boxes, though they were MUCH larger in capacity. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, February 17, 2000 9:53 AM Subject: Re: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges >Jerome, > > What are you going to use the MO drive on? Just curious. I have a >SMO-501 also. It's SLOW!! The transfer rate and access time are WORSE than >a floppy drive. > > Joe > >At 03:10 PM 2/16/00 -0500, you wrote: >>I am looking for a source for the 600 Mbyte magneto optical >>5 1/4" cartridges with 512 byte per sector. Tim Shoppa >>has mentioned in the past that he might know where I can >>find some. Does anyone else? These will be used in a >>SONY SMO S-501 5 1/4" magneto optical disk drive. >> >>I have checked eBay, but they are usually sold as is? >> >>Sincerely yours, >> >>Jerome Fine >> >> > From dylanb at sympatico.ca Thu Feb 17 10:16:51 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges Message-ID: <002401bf7962$66a66500$1d2dd1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, February 17, 2000 11:45 AM Subject: Re: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges >Jerome, > > What are you going to use the MO drive on? Just curious. I have a >SMO-501 also. It's SLOW!! The transfer rate and access time are WORSE than >a floppy drive. They weren't that slow. We got some Beta units at the leg. for our Mac platform. I used one as my *primary* drive for years. Was nice as I could swap my development platters (MPW versions, other test junk) instantly. I never lost data and they were very reliable... more reliable than the hard drives at the time! I am looking to buy one again now. I would like to back up all this dec software on them. I know the data won't be lost if it goes on one of those drives. I feel bad now because I chucked it in the garbage a couple of years ago.... It had a carrying case and 12 platters :-( john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Feb 17 12:53:10 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: Steve Robertson's message of "Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:38:09 -0500" References: <01BF7933.160BFA80.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <200002171853.KAA13604@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Steve Robertson wrote: > On Tuesday, February 15, 2000 11:29 PM, Joe [SMTP:rigdonj@intellistar.net] wrote: > > I spotted a HP 3000 system 37 today in a scrap place. It has two HP 7963 > > Question for the HP gurus: > > Since it's not too far away, I was thinking about grabbing the > system. So, can I use my 3000/42 FOS tapes to reinstall the OS on > the 37? Good question. I'm not sure. The 37 has writable control store and so when it boots from tape I think it will want to find a WCS image in the SYSDUMP prefix on the tape. Would the 42 FOS tapes have that WCS image? I suspect there need to be at least two different types of MPE V/E FOS tapes to boot all 3000s supporting MPE V/E: one for 37s (and maybe for the various Micro 3000s -- do they use the same microinstructions and WCS images?), one for 64?/68/70s, and maybe one for the non-WCS 3000s. -Frank McConnell From Mzthompson at aol.com Thu Feb 17 12:58:04 2000 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Subject: Re: TOUCH for DOS/Windows Message-ID: <7b.1895fb3.25dd9ebc@aol.com> "Richard A. Cini, Jr." asked: > Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH utility?? Borland included TOUCH with their Turbo Pascal and Turbo C packages. Also there was a version available thru PC Magazine, created circa 1988 by Michael J. Mefford. If your like most, you probably got some floppies full of utilities that PCMag was always putting out. Here is the syntax for the PCMag version: TOUCH filespec [/D date] [/T time] date = month-day-year time = hour[:minutes[:seconds]] Default is system date and time. Mike From Mzthompson at aol.com Thu Feb 17 12:58:00 2000 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Harddisk DEC DSP3210S Message-ID: <9d.20300b3.25dd9eb8@aol.com> "J.-P. Hofer" wrote: > I am looking for technical information about a SCSI harddisk > DEC DSP3210S. > Does anyone have some details about jumper settings, capacity and > other specifications ? Physical-Log. Modes UNFORMAT WIDTH PLs CYLS CYLS INTERFACE AVG. CACHE PIO MODEL NUMBER FORMAT'D HGT. HDs PRCP HDs REC.METH. TK-TK RPM DMA HA. S/T L-ZN S/T COMMENTS AND ADITIONAL INFO. REV ============================================================================= 2688.0MB 3.50 8 3045 SCSI-2F 10ms 1024KB 2148.0MB 41.4 16 NONE (1,7)RLL 1.0ms 5,400 DSP3210 VC MZ AUTO R/S ECC, 59-119 SECTORS/TRACK _____________________________________________________________________________ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Feb 17 13:28:03 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges In-Reply-To: <002401bf7962$66a66500$1d2dd1d8@default> Message-ID: <4.1.20000217112703.00c60b40@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 11:16 AM 2/17/00 -0500, John B wrote: >I am looking to buy one again now. I would like to back up all this dec >software on them. I know the data won't be lost if it goes on one of those >drives. I feel bad now because I chucked it in the garbage a couple of years >ago.... It had a carrying case and 12 platters :-( I'll trade you a couple of MO drives for a PDP 11/20 with 8K of core :-) --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 17 12:29:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Send/Receive (BAUDOT) in GWBASIC (was Ham Stats) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000216211106.02fd5d98@ferrari.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Feb 16, 0 09:11:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1144 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000217/1888da09/attachment-0001.ksh From ss at allegro.com Thu Feb 17 14:58:37 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: <01BF7933.160BFA80.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <200002172059.MAA22139@opus.allegro.com> Re: > > I spotted a HP 3000 system 37 today in a scrap place. It has two HP 7963 > Since it's not too far away, I was thinking about grabbing the system. > So, can I use my 3000/42 FOS tapes to reinstall the OS on the 37? Definitely. I don't recall the size of a 7963, but I'm sure the install will work...and the 7963's are probably big enough to restore all the subsys files. SS Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Thu Feb 17 15:01:16 2000 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: ham radio? Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E34@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Wouff-Hong (sp?) Boy, that's an obscure reference. When I was in high-school, (back in the 70's) I picked up a couple of big boxes of QST magazines at a ham auction. Most of 'em were from the 1940's and 50's, but they were _very_ interesting reading, especially if you were into tinkering with old world-war II receivers (like the ARC-5 series...) I ran across a number of articles that mentioned the Wouff-Hong. From what I can remember, it was a wierdly-shaped piece of wood with a couple of rusty bits of metal hanging from it (probably was a fragment of an old cart hitch or something along those lines) From what I can remember, someone at ARRL headquarters found this item lying around somewhere in a storage area, and hung it on the wall just for grins. Nobody knew what it actually was, but it became kind of a joke to threaten to use it on someone as a punishment instrument if they did something against the ham ethic. I haven't heard a reference to it since high-school reading foray into the ham-past. (until now, that is :-) -al- (KD4TTQ) -acorda@geocities.com > -----Original Message----- > From: John Wilson [mailto:wilson@dbit.dbit.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 10:11 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: ham radio? > > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 06:49:55PM -0600, jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > > I think someone hit him with the Wouff-hong. > > Geez, it's been waaaay too long, what's that again? And I forget what > a Wollongong (sp?) is too... > > John Wilson KC1P (formerly KA1BNJ from Sep '78 -- Bad News John!) > D Bit > From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Feb 17 15:04:05 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Send/Receive (BAUDOT) in GWBASIC (was Ham Stats) Message-ID: <200002172104.NAA14962@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 18:29:59 +0000 (GMT) classiccmp@classiccmp.org wrote: > A word of warning for anyone trying to use the code that was below on a PC. > Firstly the PCjr serial port is at 0x2F8 (==COM2 on most PCs). Secondly, > and more importantly, the master clock fed to the chip in the PCjr is > different to that used in PCs (and PC/XTs, PC/ATs, etc). Therefore you'll > need to recalculate the baud rate divisors if you want to use it on a PC. I calculated the divisors in the program by hand, extrapolating from the values given in the technical reference for standard, higher baud rates. Kevin From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Feb 17 15:17:44 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: TOUCH for DOS/Windows Message-ID: <200002172117.NAA23511@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> If anyone wants this utility, I can put a copy on my highgate machine for general access. Kevin On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:58:04 EST classiccmp@classiccmp.org wrote: > "Richard A. Cini, Jr." asked: > > > Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH utility?? > > Borland included TOUCH with their Turbo Pascal and Turbo C packages. > > Also there was a version available thru PC Magazine, created circa 1988 > by Michael J. Mefford. If your like most, you probably got some floppies > full of utilities that PCMag was always putting out. > > Here is the syntax for the PCMag version: > > TOUCH filespec [/D date] [/T time] > date = month-day-year > time = hour[:minutes[:seconds]] > Default is system date and time. > > Mike From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 17 16:22:46 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC In-Reply-To: <004701bf781f$54c3ca60$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: <200002172123.WAA09596@mail2.siemens.de> > Here's another question...does anyone have a pointer to the source code for > a 6502-based BASIC interpreter that's ROMable? What about: Do-It-Yourself ? A Basic Interpreter isn't that hard to do. And don't forget the benefit that you finaly get a Basic as you always wanted ... Servus Hans -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 17 15:27:38 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Send/Receive (BAUDOT) in GWBASIC (was Ham Stats) In-Reply-To: <200002172104.NAA14962@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Feb 17, 0 01:04:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1090 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000217/c1653bac/attachment-0001.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 17 14:43:25 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Honeywell 316s? Re: Honeywell Level 6 Mainframe In-Reply-To: <200002130421.UAA31546@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000217154325.45878b14@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:21 PM 2/12/00 -0800, you wrote: >IBM developed the front loading 2315 disc drive in the 60's, and is the >basis for Diablo 31, Wanco, Pertec, HP 7900, and DEC RK05 2.5Mb single >platter removable disc drives. > >>Pertec Blue, I would suspect someone would want them for their Altair 8800b's > > No, these aren't floppy drives. > >I know.. take a look at the Pertec adds in Byte in the early 80's, and there >should be pictures of these drives in configurations with late MITS systems >after MITS was bought by Pertec. > >Plessey also sold Pertec drives with their clone of the RK-11 disc controller. > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 17 15:09:39 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges In-Reply-To: <002401bf7962$66a66500$1d2dd1d8@default> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000217160939.40d713de@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:16 AM 2/17/00 -0500, you wrote: > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Date: Thursday, February 17, 2000 11:45 AM >Subject: Re: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges > > >>Jerome, >> >> What are you going to use the MO drive on? Just curious. I have a >>SMO-501 also. It's SLOW!! The transfer rate and access time are WORSE than >>a floppy drive. > > >They weren't that slow. Mine is. The access time is something close to 100ms. The transfer rate is about 2/3 that of a floppy drive. Joe From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Feb 17 16:04:30 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: 4 - TK50 Drives Available Message-ID: <200002172204.OAA23177@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> Hi Group: I have four TK50 tape drives available as surplus. All were working spares from a local DEC installation. I already have too many and have to get rid of these. Here's the deal. A nominal amount (US$10 ea), and you pay shipping. Please email me directly if you're interested in one or more. Kevin From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 17 17:09:23 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: TOUCH for DOS/Windows In-Reply-To: <200002172117.NAA23511@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000217180923.4ce7070e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Address? At 01:17 PM 2/17/00 PST, you wrote: >If anyone wants this utility, I can put a copy on my highgate machine for general access. > >Kevin > > >On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:58:04 EST classiccmp@classiccmp.org wrote: >> "Richard A. Cini, Jr." asked: >> >> > Is there a DOS or Windows utility similar to the Unix TOUCH utility?? >> >> Borland included TOUCH with their Turbo Pascal and Turbo C packages. >> >> Also there was a version available thru PC Magazine, created circa 1988 >> by Michael J. Mefford. If your like most, you probably got some floppies >> full of utilities that PCMag was always putting out. >> >> Here is the syntax for the PCMag version: >> >> TOUCH filespec [/D date] [/T time] >> date = month-day-year >> time = hour[:minutes[:seconds]] >> Default is system date and time. >> >> Mike > > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 17 17:14:46 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? In-Reply-To: References: <57.1bc412e.25d3e5b9@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000217181446.504fb2be@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I just picked up one of these with the Z-80, Z-80AA, 8080, 8085, 6800, 6809, 8051 and 8048 pods. Has anyone else got one other than Al and Jeff? What do you think of them? Has anyone ever tried to repair the tape drive capstans on them? Has anyone ever tried to built the probe for one? BTW these date from around 1981 and are powered by Z-80s so they're on-topic. Joe From aek at spies.com Thu Feb 17 16:43:11 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? Message-ID: <200002172243.OAA10208@spies.com> "Has anyone else got one other than Al and Jeff?" Yes, there are a bunch of arcade game collectors that have them. "Has anyone ever tried to built the probe for one?" Not that I know of. The probes always get separated from the units (along with the docs and pods). The probes are going for big bucks on eBay ($75-$100). Popular pods (6502,6809,Z80,68K) sell pretty high there as well. Of course, what this stuff sells for on eBay is LOW compared to what the used test equipment scalpers want for them ($250 and up for pods). 9010s are very useful when you're trying to debug embedded hardware (like video game boards) that have no I/O "Has anyone ever tried to repair the tape drive capstans on them?" They are Braemar mini-data cassette drives, you may still be able to get parts from them, and cassettes (which are NOT the same as mini dictation cassettes) From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Feb 17 17:06:04 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Software Results Corp Unibus 68000 board? Message-ID: <000217180604.25601ef6@trailing-edge.com> Hi folks, I just found a "Software Results Corporation" Unibus (hex-height) board with an array of 32 2114 memory chips and a big fat 68000 chip on it. There's a COM5025 (UART?) and two 40-pin headers on the edge. Date codes are from early 1984, and there's a surprising amount of 54LS (and no 74LS) logic on the board, leading me to think that this may have been intended for the military market. Is this, by any chance, a coprocessor type board, or is it a "master" CPU? Am I imagining things, or has "Software Results Corporation" been mentioned on this list recently? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 17 17:24:41 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Macintosh Portable problems Message-ID: <20000217232441.68684.qmail@hotmail.com> >I assume you used sealed lead-acid batteries? > >-Mike Yep, I uesd the exact type of batteries ("Cyclon" 2V, 5.0 Ah cells) that were originally in it. They are new cells. I am tempted to believe that the AC Adaptor/Charger has gone south on me. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, Double FDD, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Feb 17 18:37:18 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? References: <57.1bc412e.25d3e5b9@aol.com> <3.0.1.16.20000217181446.504fb2be@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <001401bf79a8$50c4bac0$3d711fd1@default> I have the same with the pods also but have tried using it yet. John ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe To: Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 5:14 PM Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? > Hi, > > I just picked up one of these with the Z-80, Z-80AA, 8080, 8085, 6800, > 6809, 8051 and 8048 pods. Has anyone else got one other than Al and Jeff? > What do you think of them? Has anyone ever tried to repair the tape drive > capstans on them? Has anyone ever tried to built the probe for one? BTW > these date from around 1981 and are powered by Z-80s so they're on-topic. > > Joe > > From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 18:49:26 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Software Results Corp Unibus 68000 board? Message-ID: <20000218004926.11754.qmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > Hi folks, > > I just found a "Software Results Corporation" Unibus > (hex-height) board with an array of 32 2114 memory chips and > a big fat 68000 chip on it. There's a COM5025 (UART?) and two > 40-pin headers on the edge. Yup. Cool. Out of perverse curiosity, what's the S/N? I can eventually look it up and tell you who used to own it. I might have even been the guy that pulled the parts from inventory and tested the finished product. > Date codes are from early 1984, > and there's a surprising amount of 54LS (and no 74LS) logic on the > board, leading me to think that this may have been intended for the > military market. Nope... the company got tired of snooping down bad chips. The boards were a couple of grand, customer cost, so MIL-SPEC chips were not a horrible cut into the profit margin and were, at the time, individually tested. It saved enough on labor to be worth the expense. > Is this, by any chance, a coprocessor type board, or is it a > "master" CPU? It is an intellegent synchronous serial card with onboard line-printer capability. On a RSTS/E system, you could avoid spooling jobs through the system line printer queue, saving many CPU cycles. We used to hang LA-180's right off of the printer port or sell a printer adapter for Dataproducts interfaced printers. > Am I imagining things, or has "Software Results Corporation" > been mentioned on this list recently? Yes. I was hired there in 1984 and eventually bought the name and rights to the software/hardware/customer list and provided service between 1993 and 1995 to all the customers who bought them in the 1980s (by 1990 sales were effectively non-existant except for upgrades). Coincidentally, SRC was the company that took out the full page back ad on "CPU Wars", now on the web at http://www.e-pix.com/CPUWARS/cpuwars.html I have all the software, firmware, schematics, wire-wrap prototypes, *everything* for them. Unless you want to speak 3780 or HASP to some other device from your Unibus PDP-11 or VAX, that board is useless. The dual 6309 PROMs are only smart enough to feed more complicated programs through a CSR window into the 16K of SRAM. Even simple diagnostics are downloaded at runtime, character by character. In its protocol emulation mode, it uses 16-bit DMA to feed buffers back and forth. Unless I am seriously misinformed, this board was the first single-board DMA device for the Unibus. Software Results pioneered the removal of the NPR jumper to allow such things to work (prior to this, DMA devices were one _backplane_ that broke grant between the input and output Unibus cables). We had to ship dual-height grant cards to accomodate the absence of the board when it was removed for diagnostic or repair purposes. More trivia: this board uses SRAM because of two early DRAM problems. Intel RAM was having higher than expected single bit errors (thought at first to be cosmic rays, but later proven to be stray alpha particles emitted from the minute quantities of radioactive materials in the ceramic packages). Additionally, the first batch of 68K CPU chips (my old boss still has XC68000 S/N 424, yes, there is a serial number engraved on the lid) had microcode glitches that caused longer than advertised bus cycles. For those designers that borrowed/copied/migrated existing Z-80 refresh schemes, the outages were long enough to interfere in some cases, causing catastrophic memory loss. SRC went with 2114s for reliability. ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 18:51:11 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? Message-ID: <20000218005111.18134.qmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Al Kossow wrote: > "Has anyone else got one other than Al and Jeff?" > > Yes, there are a bunch of arcade game collectors that have them. Me. > "Has anyone ever tried to built the probe for one?" No. > Not that I know of. The probes always get separated from the > units (along with the docs and pods). The probes are going for > big bucks on eBay ($75-$100). Popular pods (6502,6809,Z80,68K) > sell pretty high there as well. I have only the 68000 pod. I'd *love* to land a 6502 pod. I would get some serious use. Mine came from Software Results Corp. (see other thread) and was used for testing COMBOARDs. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 17 18:01:26 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? Message-ID: <200002180001.TAA20467@world.std.com> >> I just found a "Software Results Corporation" Unibus >> (hex-height) board with an array of 32 2114 memory chips and >> a big fat 68000 chip on it. There's a COM5025 (UART?) and two >> 40-pin headers on the edge. >Yup. Cool. Even cooler that you know all about it :-). > Out of perverse curiosity, what's the S/N? I can eventually >look it up and tell you who used to own it. I might have even been the >guy that pulled the parts from inventory and tested the finished product. SN 1245, Rev 3.0. There's a handwritten "O" before the "CBD-X31" designation on the board. >I have all the software, firmware, schematics, wire-wrap prototypes, >*everything* for them. Unless you want to speak 3780 or HASP to some other >device from your Unibus PDP-11 or VAX, that board is useless. In that case, would anyone else on the list want to grab it? >Unless I am seriously misinformed, this board was the first single-board >DMA device for the Unibus. The RL11 and RX211 both date from 1978 or so and do DMA from a single Unibus slot. Seeing how the date on this 68000 board is 1982, does this mean that a predecessor to this board was being made in 1978 or earlier? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ss at allegro.com Thu Feb 17 21:04:55 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: <200002172059.MAA22139@opus.allegro.com> References: <01BF7933.160BFA80.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <200002180305.TAA26155@opus.allegro.com> Hi, > > So, can I use my 3000/42 FOS tapes to reinstall the OS on the 37? > > Definitely. I don't recall the size of a 7963, but I'm sure the install will Now I'm not so sure :) Stan Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Feb 17 21:29:08 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000217181446.504fb2be@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <57.1bc412e.25d3e5b9@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000217222710.00b672d0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 06:14 PM 2/17/00 -0500, Joe said something like: >Hi, > > I just picked up one of these with the Z-80, Z-80AA, 8080, 8085, 6800, >6809, 8051 and 8048 pods. Has anyone else got one other than Al and Jeff? >What do you think of them? Has anyone ever tried to repair the tape drive >capstans on them? Has anyone ever tried to built the probe for one? BTW >these date from around 1981 and are powered by Z-80s so they're on-topic. I've got several around here along with Z80, 8088, 6809E and 68000 pods. No experience with the tape drives yet. Does this hit that they could be a pest? :-0 Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 17 22:07:36 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? In-Reply-To: <200002172243.OAA10208@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000217230736.321fc066@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:43 PM 2/17/00 -0800, Al wrote: >"Has anyone else got one other than Al and Jeff?" > >Yes, there are a bunch of arcade game collectors that have them. I meant to ask if anyone else on this list had one. > >"Has anyone ever tried to built the probe for one?" > >Not that I know of. The probes always get separated from the >units (along with the docs and pods). The probes are going for >big bucks on eBay ($75-$100). Popular pods (6502,6809,Z80,68K) >sell pretty high there as well. Of course, what this stuff >sells for on eBay is LOW compared to what the used test equipment >scalpers want for them ($250 and up for pods). I know! I can get plenty of pods but the probes are very hard to find. I've looked at the probes and there's almost nothing in them. Two LEDs, two transistors and a few descrete components. > >9010s are very useful when you're trying to debug embedded hardware >(like video game boards) that have no I/O > >"Has anyone ever tried to repair the tape drive >capstans on them?" > >They are Braemar mini-data cassette drives, you may still be able >to get parts from them, and cassettes (which are NOT the same as >mini dictation cassettes) OK what's a "Braemar drive"? I know the audio tapes are different. The Fluke ones seem to be the same as the tapes for the HP 82163 tape drive. I've tried unsuccessfully to find a substitute for those for years. I don't know if the tapes are interchangeable with the HP ones. The write protect switch is different and the tape length may be different. BTW Fluke's price for the tape drive in 1990 was $550! > Joe From mac at Wireless.Com Thu Feb 17 23:01:19 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Macintosh Portable problems In-Reply-To: <20000217232441.68684.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Could you please check the voltage (ideally under load) of the charger? Possibly you could use a 'scope, just to be sure? Then I'll measure mine. -Mike On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, David Vohs wrote: > >I assume you used sealed lead-acid batteries? > > > >-Mike > > Yep, I uesd the exact type of batteries ("Cyclon" 2V, 5.0 Ah cells) that > were originally in it. They are new cells. I am tempted to believe that the > AC Adaptor/Charger has gone south on me. > ____________________________________________________________ > David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. > > Computer Collection: > > "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, Double FDD, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. > "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. > "Delorean": TI-99/4A. > "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 00:16:10 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Software Results Corp Unibus 68000 board? Message-ID: <20000218061610.18808.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >> I just found a "Software Results Corporation" Unibus board... > > > Cool. > > Even cooler that you know all about it :-). There aren't many people in the world who know more than I (at this point, probably nobody ;-) I never expected anyone to ever want to use this stuff ever again. > > Out of perverse curiosity, what's the S/N? > > SN 1245, Rev 3.0. I almost certainly made that board. I started there around 700-800. I even seem to remember that particular one. When I get around to snarfing up the backup tapes and sticking them on CD, I'll be sure to look that one up. It really does ring a bell. We only made that model up to around 1300-1400, IIRC (yes, starting at "1"; I still have some working Rev 1 boards with double digit serial numbers). The dates of the chips do _not_ reflect the manufacturing date, BTW. At one point, we had several *years* supplies of certain ICs due to aggressive overbuying by our comptroller to avoid the shortages that plagued us in the early days. It's why we had *tubes* of 50256 DRAMs that bought at $80 per chip that didn't get used until the price had fallen to $35 per chip. :-( Some of those same chips later ended up in my Amiga when I salvaged an engineering prototype from the dumpster. I know which ones they are by the hand-drawn "U number" identifying labels still stuck to the tops. > >I have all the software, firmware, schematics, wire-wrap prototypes... > > In that case, would anyone else on the list want to grab it? I haven't exactly agreed to post this stuff. It's a massive clot of MACRO, 68K assembler and C code that while not exactly commercially viable would be a major pain on my part to package up to be useful to anyone. As an employee, it took me weeks on the clock to get things to the point where I could build the software from scratch. Also, the C compiler used by the COMBOARD-I products is *not* VAX-C, it's Whitesmith's C and AFAIK I don't have the power to grant those licenses (SRC did, but the corporation dissolved years ago). We never ported our older products to VAX-C, only the newer Qbus and VAX-BI products. There was no point - the customer received binaries and _we_ had no problem using a 12-year-old compiler for 12-year-old code. It was ancient tools, but to the final days, I could incorporate changes to the source and have a new production tree ready to ship in 5 hours of disk thrashing (from typing *one* build command, I might add!) In short, it's possibly of archeological use, but unless you *really* want to speak Bisync to some IBM hardware with VMS 4.5 - 5.4, I don't know how useful any of it would be. There is source code for PDP-11 products, but I am even less confident of being able to even make a working binary distribution tape. I _have_ all the stuff but I haven't done a single thing with it since 1994. The original Unibus board is historically fascinating, but not very extensible. There's a later Unibus board, the COMBOARD-II, that has an entirely different and incompatible DMA interface (transparent to the user because those details are hidden in the driver) with 128K of 4164 DRAMs, but the same printer interface and COM5025. For me, at least, our final products, the COMBOARD-Q (Qbus w/Z8530 Dual SIO and 512K RAM) or the COMBOARD-BI (10Mhz 68010, BI interface, 2Mb RAM and Z8530) are the ones most likely to be turned into something interesting. Unfortunately, the worlds supply of available Q-boards (as we called them in-house) is approximately two, and one of *those* was removed from the walls of the trade show booth, and is lacking in the basic ECOs to be operational. I have crates of COMBOARD-I and COMBOARD-II models, but I do not have a working test bed since my DWBUA BI-to-Unibus adapter board smoked. :-( The VAX 8300 works just fine, but I have no way to test Unibus boards beyond basic boot functions in a PDP-11 test bed (with that Fluke 9010 that's been mentioned in the other thread). Sorry to rain on your parade, but given the freeze-dried nature of the software, you'd have to present a pretty convincing argument for me to divert the tens of hours it would take to whip up something useful and even then, you'd need at least another COMBOARD and modem-eliminator to do as much as demonstrate it (we used to use two COMBOARDs, of any variety, to move files between VAXen - SRC never evolved to using any sort of modern LAN technology like Ethernet - we had point-to-point Bisync links, at cost, between any machines we cared to have). > >Unless I am seriously misinformed, this board was the first single-board > >DMA device for the Unibus. > > The RL11 and RX211 both date from 1978 or so and do DMA from a single Unibus > slot. Seeing how the date on this 68000 board is 1982, does this mean that > a predecessor to this board was being made in 1978 or earlier? Well... The PCB you have is Rev 3. The Rev 1 boards are dated 1979, and the initial prototype originally had a .6" wide socket for the XC68000 processor because it was designed from the preliminary spec sheets from Motorola. It was quite a surprise to the COMBOARD-I designers when they learned that the chip was 1" wide! What may have happened is that the COMBOARD-I was designed before the RL11 or RX211 were available to the public, creating the external appearance that they were first. I am pretty certain that SRC had dual-height grant cards before DEC did because we had our own part number for them. The older, tiny DEC cards were GC727 cards and we called ours the "GC747" card because it was bigger (like Boeing airplanes). I've described the GC747 on the list before - the PCB itself had a built-in curved T-handle at the top and was stencilled in red with a face of a dinosaur and was called the "Grantasaurus Rex". It even made an appearance in a photo in "The DEC Professional", but there's no way I could cite issue and page numbers. As soon as I get my flatbed scanner back from loan, I'll slap it and the COMBOARD line on it and make some scans for the Field Guide. I at least have time to do that. I did find the "COMBOARD PROGRAMMER'S AND MAINTENANCE MANUAL" and the "COMBOARD HARDWARE SELF-INSTALLATION SUPPLIMENT" guides (35 double-sided pages, combined). I'd pass them along for the cost of duplicating/shipping. I could scan them, too, if anyone _really_ wanted to put third-party docs up on a web page. Trivia note: COMBOARDs met VAXen when a customer of DEC who was also a customer of Software Results Corp declined to buy a VAX unless it could talk to the IBM mainframe as well as the PDP-11 he already had. Because DEC wanted to migrate their customer base, one of the founders of Software Results went to Maynard to port the software. I'm told that he used VAX-11/780 S/N 6 for his efforts, a DEC in-house sales demo machine. Our hero was apparently puzzled that the sales staff was upset that he kept crashing the machine during driver development *while they were attempting customer demos* On most of our boards, there was our 800 number for service - 1-800-SRC-DATA. Up until a couple of years ago, it rang to my home office number. I finally disconnected it when I had no more paying customers and was tired of getting billed for other people calling the wrong number. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Feb 18 00:45:16 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: Steve Robertson's message of "Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:38:09 -0500" References: <01BF7933.160BFA80.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <200002180645.WAA33607@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Steve Robertson wrote: > Since it's not too far away, I was thinking about grabbing the > system. So, can I use my 3000/42 FOS tapes to reinstall the OS on > the 37? Stan Sieler got me to re-read one of my manuals. I'm still not sure what it looks like on the tape, but it looks like a bootable tape can contain multiple WCS loads for different models of CPU and still support the models that have microcode in ROM. So this can work, if the /37 microcode is in its place on the FOS tape, and I think that's pretty likely for a (probably mass-produced) FOS tape. -Frank McConnell From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Feb 18 01:53:04 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Software Results Corp Unibus 68000 board? In-Reply-To: <20000218061610.18808.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com>; from ethan_dicks@yahoo.com on Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 10:16:10PM -0800 References: <20000218061610.18808.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20000218025304.A25261@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 17, 2000 at 10:16:10PM -0800, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Also, the C compiler used by the COMBOARD-I > products is *not* VAX-C, it's Whitesmith's C and AFAIK I don't have the power > to grant those licenses (SRC did, but the corporation dissolved years ago). FWIW, I was chasing down Whitesmith's PDP-11 compiler a while back and found that the rights seemed to be owned by TASKING, and they're willing to write licenses for the old compilers if you pay them (IIRC the price I was quoted was $500). Media/docs are your problem but at least there's a legal way to do it. Evidently they bought up the rights to the microcontroller cross-compilers and own the old stuff as a side-effect. John Wilson D Bit From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Feb 18 06:05:50 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000217222710.00b672d0@206.231.8.2> References: <3.0.1.16.20000217181446.504fb2be@mailhost.intellistar.net> <57.1bc412e.25d3e5b9@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000218070550.32f7a5f4@mailhost.intellistar.net> Chris, At 10:29 PM 2/17/00 -0500, you wrote: >Upon the date 06:14 PM 2/17/00 -0500, Joe said something like: >>Hi, >> >> I just picked up one of these with the Z-80, Z-80AA, 8080, 8085, 6800, >>6809, 8051 and 8048 pods. Has anyone else got one other than Al and Jeff? >>What do you think of them? Has anyone ever tried to repair the tape drive >>capstans on them? Has anyone ever tried to built the probe for one? BTW >>these date from around 1981 and are powered by Z-80s so they're on-topic. > >I've got several around here along with Z80, 8088, 6809E and 68000 pods. > >No experience with the tape drives yet. Does this hit that they could be a >pest? :-0 Yeap, the rollers in them seem to "melt" with age just like the ones in the HP 67s, 85s etc. Joe > >Regards, Chris >-- -- >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ > From bill at chipware.com Fri Feb 18 09:16:00 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Source code for BASIC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301bf7a23$0fffa740$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > > >Looking through the first few feet of "real data"... > > > > > >No high bits, the first few bytes are: > > >00111011 x3b ';' (was hoping for the start of an assembly comment) > > >00110010 x32 '2' (nope, looks like some sort of hex...) > > >00110000 x30 '0' > > >01000001 x41 'A' > > >00110000 x30 '0' > > >00110000 x30 '0' > > >00110000 x30 '0' > > >00110011 x33 '3' > > >00111001 x39 '9' > > >01000001 x41 'A' > > This looks to me like MOS Technologies checksum hex format, > as used on the KIM-1. > > > That makes some sense, "20" is the 6502 opcode for a JSR (jump to > > subroutine). The next two bytes are presumably the subroutine's > > address, and "39" is the 6502 opcode for an AND abolute,Y instruction. > > Not if it's MOS Tech. hex! The first two digits are the > length of the block (in hex), then four digits of address, > then the hex for the data block. There'll be a checksum on > the end. In this case, we've got a 32-byte block (20 hex) > starting at address A000. This sounds right. There is "8k basic @ a000" written on a scrap of paper that was with these tapes. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Feb 18 09:56:44 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges Message-ID: <002a01bf7a28$c10e8ce0$4027d1d8@default> PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, February 17, 2000 2:28 PM Subject: Re: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges >At 11:16 AM 2/17/00 -0500, John B wrote: >>I am looking to buy one again now. I would like to back up all this dec >>software on them. I know the data won't be lost if it goes on one of those >>drives. I feel bad now because I chucked it in the garbage a couple of years >>ago.... It had a carrying case and 12 platters :-( > >I'll trade you a couple of MO drives for a PDP 11/20 with 8K of core :-) >--Chuck > Cute Chuck! I got quite a bit of interest for a "straight-11".. more than I thought. I know you indicated interest in one. When I know how many I will have total (first week in March) then I will set aside a couple for list members.. No idea what to trade or how much yet. But............................. If you had said DECTape drives then I probably would have taken you up on it. I can *now* truly appreciate why many dec engineers, field service, and prior dec employees all call them junk. Many have been guilty of using Luttig's name in vane... now, me too! I wonder if TU56s float? john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Feb 18 12:01:31 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges In-Reply-To: <002a01bf7a28$c10e8ce0$4027d1d8@default>; from dylanb@sympatico.ca on Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 10:56:44AM -0500 References: <002a01bf7a28$c10e8ce0$4027d1d8@default> Message-ID: <20000218130131.A26726@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 10:56:44AM -0500, John B wrote: > If you had said DECTape drives then I probably would have taken you up on > it. I can *now* truly appreciate why many dec engineers, field service, and > prior dec employees all call them junk. Many have been guilty of using > Luttig's name in vane... now, me too! > > I wonder if TU56s float? What do you mean? Just because they break down a lot and have an ECO list a mile long? Doesn't matter! They're one of the coolest peripherals around anyway! It's amazing the lengths DEC went to, to have a cheap removable medium that only *slightly* pre-dated floppy disks. But then again they had no choice... My only complaint is that the TC11 backplane has a full-height bracket on only one side, if you take it out of the rack then the two halves of the other side of the backplane is being held together by the wire wrap wire alone. Solution -- don't ever take it out of the rack! And only DEC would make a pretty lights 'n switches control panel and then hide it behind a black block-out panel. Anyway I promise you TU56s don't float, not by a long shot! John Wilson D Bit From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Feb 18 17:07:08 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge Message-ID: Hello, all you dumpster divers . . . . I am on the lookout for: a --->> 44pin IDE <<--- cable about an inch or less long to attach a 2.5" harddrive into an Amiga 1200. I've had people try to sell me adapters to the standard 40 pin. The pitch is slightly less than .100 -- think it's about .080. Female to female connectors. Also looking for a good sorce or supply of Syquest 5 1/4" catridges in either 88 Mb or 200 Mb capacities. I have one of all of these drives -- 44/88/200 and the new prices are worse than the price of gasoline these days. I have a used 44 meg Syquest drive with two carts that I'd part with QUITE CHEAPLY. Also to remind all you Amigalphiles out there -- the Gateway Amiga show is in St. Louis again on April 1-2 at the Henry VIII Hotel on Lindbergh Boulevard near the airport. Gary Hildebrand loyal Amigaphile and boatanchor collector From af-list at wfi-inc.com Fri Feb 18 12:29:05 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: HP 3000 MPE V: notes on Y2K Safe release In-Reply-To: <200002180645.WAA33607@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: Well, I'm probably the least-knowledgable on the subject, but... I've got my release 3P FOS tape here with the install guide, and it indicates all of the different configuration options for the 37, XE, Micro's, 39, 40, 42, 44, 48, 58, 64, 68, and 70. So I'm assuming it'd be fine...which version of MPE V do you have? If you need the 3P FOS...(and I've got the full subsys tapes too)... Cheers, Aaron On 17 Feb 2000, Frank McConnell wrote: > Steve Robertson wrote: > > Since it's not too far away, I was thinking about grabbing the > > system. So, can I use my 3000/42 FOS tapes to reinstall the OS on > > the 37? > > Stan Sieler got me to re-read one of my manuals. I'm still not sure > what it looks like on the tape, but it looks like a bootable tape can > contain multiple WCS loads for different models of CPU and still > support the models that have microcode in ROM. So this can work, > if the /37 microcode is in its place on the FOS tape, and I think > that's pretty likely for a (probably mass-produced) FOS tape. > > -Frank McConnell > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 18 13:15:05 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hello, all you dumpster divers . . . . > >I am on the lookout for: > >a --->> 44pin IDE <<--- cable about an inch or less long to attach a 2.5" >harddrive into an Amiga 1200. I've had people try to sell me adapters to >the standard 40 pin. The pitch is slightly less than .100 -- think it's >about .080. Female to female connectors. http://www.softhut.com/product.html Which reminds me, I really need to find one or two now that I've got some 2.5" drives.... Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 18 12:37:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Fluke 9010 Micro-System Troubleshooter ?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000217230736.321fc066@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 17, 0 11:07:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1558 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000218/2e5a9474/attachment-0001.ksh From dylanb at sympatico.ca Fri Feb 18 12:05:32 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: TC11, TU56, was :(Re: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges Message-ID: <004601bf7a3a$bf693c20$4027d1d8@default> -----Original Message----- From: John Wilson To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 18, 2000 1:01 PM Subject: Re: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges >On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 10:56:44AM -0500, John B wrote: >> If you had said DECTape drives then I probably would have taken you up on >> it. I can *now* truly appreciate why many dec engineers, field service, and >> prior dec employees all call them junk. Many have been guilty of using >> Luttig's name in vane... now, me too! >> >> I wonder if TU56s float? > >What do you mean? Just because they break down a lot and have an ECO list a >mile long? Doesn't matter! Doesn't matter? People generally rate an old piece of equipment by the way it performed.. Most tape drives in the late 1960's were *not* that bad. > They're one of the coolest peripherals around >anyway! It's amazing the lengths DEC went to, to have a cheap removable >medium that only *slightly* pre-dated floppy disks. They made DECTape type drives since '62.. (555), TU55, then (after one would *think* they would get it right)... the TU56. > But then again they had >no choice... My only complaint is that the TC11 backplane has a full-height >bracket on only one side, if you take it out of the rack then the two halves >of the other side of the backplane is being held together by the wire wrap >wire alone. Solution -- don't ever take it out of the rack! That was not a blunder - it was a feature. DEC *knew* the drives were horrible so it only seemed fair to implement an upgrade strategy for the customer. One too many breakdowns... customer pulls the left side of the TC11 down and... presto! customer now has a valid reason to replace the entire tape system. I am working on a TC11 this very minute :-( I have a few to restore > And only DEC >would make a pretty lights 'n switches control panel and then hide it behind >a black block-out panel. DEC did a good job creating flashing light panels ... but, how many times did DEC want to light up a customers computer room with ENDZ, PAR, and other fault lights? This is the *only* lightbulb status panel they ever hid, wasn't it? > >Anyway I promise you TU56s don't float, not by a long shot! I know many DEC customers tried. Some also tried extreme heat or pressure... or both! ;-) I really feel sorry for the field service guy now... to take abuse from a customer looking over his shoulder while trying to repair *another* bad DECTape drive... BTW: Do you have a TC11 _working_ ? john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com > >John Wilson >D Bit > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 18 12:45:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Software Results Corp Unibus 68000 board? In-Reply-To: <20000218061610.18808.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 17, 0 10:16:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1362 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000218/38ec7e01/attachment-0001.ksh From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Feb 18 14:04:40 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: from Gary Hildebrand at "Feb 18, 2000 06:07:08 pm" Message-ID: <200002182004.OAA05228@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > Also looking for a good source or supply of Syquest 5 1/4" catridges in > either 88 Mb or 200 Mb capacities. I have one of all of these drives -- > 44/88/200 and the new prices are worse than the price of gasoline these > days. I have a used 44 meg Syquest drive with two carts that I'd part with > QUITE CHEAPLY. > I see that www.onsale.com has packs of 3 new 200Mb for $19.95 plus $9.50 shipping in the USA. No, you dont get a discount on the shipping if you buy multiple units. This still seems like a lot to me, but its better than the list price of $119.95 ... 49 sets are still available. This URL is good until monday: http://www.egghead.com/category/inv/00049179/02522148.htm -Lawrence LeMay From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Fri Feb 18 14:06:59 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bf7a4b$b7663d50$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> FYI to the list, I got one of these: IDE laptop to regular IDE adapter. p/n FLT-3120 @ $19.95 each. at http://www.cablemakers.com 1-888-921-2243 a while back. No complaints to report. The website photo shows a slight change to the one I have. Hate to have to hand wire/solder one of these. John A. From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 17 15:08:55 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge References: <000001bf7a4b$b7663d50$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <38AC6367.BC81635D@rain.org> John Allain wrote: > > FYI to the list, > > I got one of these: > > IDE laptop to regular IDE adapter. > p/n FLT-3120 @ $19.95 each. > at http://www.cablemakers.com 1-888-921-2243 I've seen just the cable adapters w/ power supply connection for about $3.00 or so at Rogers Specialists. $19.95 for what they are offering seems more than a little bit high. From vaxman at uswest.net Fri Feb 18 19:00:51 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Hello, all you dumpster divers . . . . > > I am on the lookout for: > > a --->> 44pin IDE <<--- cable about an inch or less long to attach a 2.5" > harddrive into an Amiga 1200. I've had people try to sell me adapters to > the standard 40 pin. The pitch is slightly less than .100 -- think it's > about .080. Female to female connectors. > It's probably 2mm (.0787 in). The connectors and cable are available from digikey (US and Canada). (www.digikey.com, catalog pg 37) Digikey P/N Description AMP P/N Price (US) ASA44K-ND 44 pin, 2mm, IDC connector 1-111626-0 $3.54 AM446-X-ND 44 conductor, 2mm cable, 5ft 1-57051-2 $3.19 IDC cables are pretty easy to crimp with a panavise, or bench vise and nylon jaws. Just take your time, and buy extra parts :) Clint From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Fri Feb 18 20:11:41 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: Test/Machines available Message-ID: <049b01bf7a7f$1ecdc3e0$94ea93c3@proteus> This message is something of a test message since it appears my last few messages haven't made it through to the list. :-( Anyway, I've a few machines I want rid of: Apple II Europlus Apple //e Psion Organiser II, CM Available free or in exchange for any interesting DEC/HP or IBM PS/2 bits (I *NEED* case parts etc for a 9595 I'm trying to restore). I'm located in the UK (Birmingham) in case anyone doesn't already know. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Feb 18 20:22:47 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:46 2005 Subject: TC11, TU56, was :(Re: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges In-Reply-To: <004601bf7a3a$bf693c20$4027d1d8@default>; from dylanb@sympatico.ca on Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 01:05:32PM -0500 References: <004601bf7a3a$bf693c20$4027d1d8@default> Message-ID: <20000218212247.A27770@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 01:05:32PM -0500, John B wrote: > DEC did a good job creating flashing light panels ... but, how many times > did DEC want to light up a customers computer room with ENDZ, PAR, and other > fault lights? Well, just how many "all is well!" lamps do you need on one panel? :-) The "bad news" lights are what make these panels so useful... > BTW: Do you have a TC11 _working_ ? Well, I have one that _works_, but yeah my other one is dead (haven't gotten around to debugging it) and even the good one isn't hooked up right now, I needed the space for something else. I really should set it up though, I've promised several people that I would eventually read tapes for them and it's been way too long. FWIW I ran a TC08/TU56 for a few years and apart from periodically reseating the boards in the TC08 (which in my case seemed to be held in only by buoyancy in the earth's atmosphere, I don't know if I was missing the hold-down bracket or if there honestly isn't one in the TC08), it gave me no trouble at all. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Fri Feb 18 20:25:02 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: ; from vaxman@uswest.net on Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 06:00:51PM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20000218212502.B27770@dbit.dbit.com> On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 06:00:51PM -0700, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > IDC cables are pretty easy to crimp with a panavise, or bench vise and > nylon jaws. Or a "duckbill" vice grip, available at welding supply shops and some auto parts shops. Works nicely, and not too strong... A vice is OK but you have to be really careful to listen for the clicks, the first one is the connector seating, the second one is the connector shattering! John Wilson D Bit From edick at idcomm.com Fri Feb 18 21:49:01 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge Message-ID: <001501bf7a8c$448f10e0$0400c0a8@winbook> There's a tool made specifically for attaching ICD connectors that costs only $15-16. That's quite a bit less than what the fixe-grips cost. They're a parallel-jawed arrangement made of cleverly formed black sheet metal with a yellow plastic seat that fits in the jaws, hinged at the end, like a nutcracker, and which works MUCH better, faster, and more easily than a vise, plier, even a parallel-jawed pair, as they're usually too small. That seat is almost perfect, but it has a relief for the index tab in the middle of the odd-numbered side of most IDC connectors, but it won't take the ones with two such tabs. I've never seen one of these blister-packed wonders cost more than $19.95, and bought mine for $15 or so. Dick -----Original Message----- From: John Wilson To: classiccmp Date: Friday, February 18, 2000 7:28 PM Subject: Re: scroungers -- a new chalenge >On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 06:00:51PM -0700, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: >> IDC cables are pretty easy to crimp with a panavise, or bench vise and >> nylon jaws. > >Or a "duckbill" vice grip, available at welding supply shops and some auto >parts shops. Works nicely, and not too strong... A vice is OK but you >have to be really careful to listen for the clicks, the first one is the >connector seating, the second one is the connector shattering! > >John Wilson >D Bit From rcini at msn.com Fri Feb 18 22:02:22 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: YASBC Update Message-ID: <000d01bf7a8e$888622a0$6464a8c0@office1> Hello, all: I've posted the schematics and the beginnings of a kernel tonight. The c ode is not to a point where I can simulate it yet, but I have the reset, NMI , and IRQ routines done, as well as necessary modifications to Chris Ward's ACIA and Dallas RTC code. Please look at the schematics. There are 9 PDF files containing the 8 sc hematics and a component mask. I appologize in advance for using PDFs for sc hematics, but I've found that it's easier to print from EDWin to the PDF Wri ter driver and then to the printer than directly to the printer itself. See if there is anything glaring that I've missed. At this point, the My 6502 feature set is "frozen", but I'm open to circuit optimization ideas. I' ve gotten the board down to 6.5" x 7.5". When you look at it, you'll see tha t it's stuffed. Enjoy it and let me know what you think. Rich [ Rich Cini/WUGNET [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Feb 18 23:33:31 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: <001501bf7a8c$448f10e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000219003331.448f600a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Dick, Where do you buy such a wonder? I worked on some of the first 8085 computers in the mid 70s and we bought a press that was made for putting on ICD connectors and I remember that it cost about $450! Personally, I use a vice and have no trouble with it. Joe At 08:49 PM 2/18/00 -0700, you wrote: >There's a tool made specifically for attaching ICD connectors that costs >only $15-16. That's quite a bit less than what the fixe-grips cost. >They're a parallel-jawed arrangement made of cleverly formed black sheet >metal with a yellow plastic seat that fits in the jaws, hinged at the end, >like a nutcracker, and which works MUCH better, faster, and more easily than >a vise, plier, even a parallel-jawed pair, as they're usually too small. >That seat is almost perfect, but it has a relief for the index tab in the >middle of the odd-numbered side of most IDC connectors, but it won't take >the ones with two such tabs. I've never seen one of these blister-packed >wonders cost more than $19.95, and bought mine for $15 or so. > >Dick >-----Original Message----- >From: John Wilson >To: classiccmp >Date: Friday, February 18, 2000 7:28 PM >Subject: Re: scroungers -- a new chalenge > > >>On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 06:00:51PM -0700, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) >wrote: >>> IDC cables are pretty easy to crimp with a panavise, or bench vise and >>> nylon jaws. >> >>Or a "duckbill" vice grip, available at welding supply shops and some auto >>parts shops. Works nicely, and not too strong... A vice is OK but you >>have to be really careful to listen for the clicks, the first one is the >>connector seating, the second one is the connector shattering! >> >>John Wilson >>D Bit > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Feb 18 23:04:44 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Test/Machines available In-Reply-To: <049b01bf7a7f$1ecdc3e0$94ea93c3@proteus> Message-ID: >Available free or in exchange for any interesting DEC/HP or IBM PS/2 bits (I >*NEED* case parts etc for a 9595 I'm trying to restore). > >I'm located in the UK (Birmingham) in case anyone doesn't already know. If you come to Disneyland, stop by I am just a few miles away and have a bunch of 9595s. Need anything bad enough to have it shipped? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Feb 19 02:28:10 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Pomona CA hamfest, Sat (now) ASR33 Message-ID: Last month at the Cal Poly Pomona hamfest I noticed one of the hams had a sign on the back of his car "Teletype 33 forsale", never found him at his spot though for any details, and the spot watcher didn't know anything. 3rd Saturday of the month, TODAY, is the hamfest at Cal Poly Pomona in soCal. I will be on a short leash, arriving a little after 7, and scheduled to be shot if I am not gone shortly after 9 am. Look for a big nerd with a bucket, stupid hat is optional (mine, not yours). From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Feb 19 02:20:43 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: YASBC Update In-Reply-To: <000d01bf7a8e$888622a0$6464a8c0@office1> Message-ID: > See if there is anything glaring that I've missed. At this point, the My >6502 feature set is "frozen", but I'm open to circuit optimization ideas. I' Since its frozen I will just mention over in the A2 newsgroup there have been a discussion of a VHDL 6502 running on some common gate array type chip. Behaves mostly just like the real thing. Here is a snip with info I wrote a 65c02 VHDL model that I programmed into an Altera 10k30 FPGA. I have booted Apple DOS and played Frogger. Write to me or visit my web page for details Scott L. Baker scd@teleport.com Sierra Circuit Design www.teleport.com/~scd From edick at idcomm.com Sat Feb 19 08:59:23 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge Message-ID: <000e01bf7ae9$eae666c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Yes, I've bought a few of the "real" tools on behalf of one client or another. They're expensive, but it seems that their expense comes mainly from making it difficult to use them with other manufacturers' connectors. My version came from Gateway Electronics, but I've seen them for sale in the same blister-pack elsewhere. I'll phone up the guys at Gateway (St.Louis, Denver, Houston, SanDiego, not all of which are open any longer and none of which are associated with Gateway Computers) since it's Saturday. IF all else fails, I suppose you could call them in Denver at (303) 458-5444. Ask for Mike, and he'll know which crimping tool you want. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, February 18, 2000 9:38 PM Subject: Re: scroungers -- a new chalenge >Dick, > > Where do you buy such a wonder? I worked on some of the first 8085 >computers in the mid 70s and we bought a press that was made for putting on >ICD connectors and I remember that it cost about $450! Personally, I use a >vice and have no trouble with it. > > Joe > >At 08:49 PM 2/18/00 -0700, you wrote: >>There's a tool made specifically for attaching ICD connectors that costs >>only $15-16. That's quite a bit less than what the fixe-grips cost. >>They're a parallel-jawed arrangement made of cleverly formed black sheet >>metal with a yellow plastic seat that fits in the jaws, hinged at the end, >>like a nutcracker, and which works MUCH better, faster, and more easily than >>a vise, plier, even a parallel-jawed pair, as they're usually too small. >>That seat is almost perfect, but it has a relief for the index tab in the >>middle of the odd-numbered side of most IDC connectors, but it won't take >>the ones with two such tabs. I've never seen one of these blister-packed >>wonders cost more than $19.95, and bought mine for $15 or so. >> >>Dick >>-----Original Message----- >>From: John Wilson >>To: classiccmp >>Date: Friday, February 18, 2000 7:28 PM >>Subject: Re: scroungers -- a new chalenge >> >> >>>On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 06:00:51PM -0700, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) >>wrote: >>>> IDC cables are pretty easy to crimp with a panavise, or bench vise and >>>> nylon jaws. >>> >>>Or a "duckbill" vice grip, available at welding supply shops and some auto >>>parts shops. Works nicely, and not too strong... A vice is OK but you >>>have to be really careful to listen for the clicks, the first one is the >>>connector seating, the second one is the connector shattering! >>> >>>John Wilson >>>D Bit >> >> > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 19 10:17:31 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Manual Available: Penril Corporation 300/1200 Data Modem Message-ID: Same deal, contact the person offering this, not me. I think I translated the dimensions correctly, blasted MS! Another example of where Eudora couldn't read the garbage MS OE spewed. He included a scan of the cover that I can forward to anyone that wants it, it's got a little more info, I'm on a fast line, so forwarding it isn't a problem for me. Zane From: "J. Darren Peterson" I'd like to find a home for this book instead of trashing it. I'll send it to anyone for the cost of shipping. Penril Corporation 300/1200 Data Modem Operations Manual, December 1982 The manual is 8.5-inches x 11-inches in size, .5-inch thick, soft cover, in very good condition, and has five sections and two appendices. The sections are (1) Introduction, (2) Installation, (3) Operating Instructions, (4) Maintenance, and (5) Fault Isolation and Diagnostic Tests. The appendices are (1) Selectable Options Descriptions and (2) Functional Notes. | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Technoid at cheta.net Sat Feb 19 11:56:36 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002191750.MAA11153@lexington.ioa.net> I have used a vice to crimp connectors but for card-edge connectors I just stand of the connector with just the heel of my boot and rock slightly. It is hard to do that way with the header-type connectors without breaking the locks off. You can use superglue if you do.... Caution with a vise. I bent the handle on a friend's one time trying to crimp a scsi header onto some rainbow-colored cable I have. This cable has a little bit more insulation than is normal and it was hard to get throug. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From Technoid at cheta.net Sat Feb 19 11:59:37 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Data General Eclipse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002191754.MAA11714@lexington.ioa.net> Well, I have gotten my DG MV4000DC up and running. It has 8mb ram, a 120mb and an 71mb hard disks, 5b terminals, 12 telnet soft terminals, tcp/ip (not fully configured yet). I have OS tapes, tcpip tape, diagnostic tapes and utilities. I could use a copy of PCOPY.PR to restore an LDU from the former config. I have gotten reasonable facile with the machine and operating system. If anyone comes across an DG machine I can provide system software and tech aid in getting it up and running. This applies to the Data General MV/xxxxx series machines. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Feb 19 12:47:14 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge References: <200002191750.MAA11153@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <38AEE532.53E32EED@bigfoot.com> I make cables with ribbon and header types all the time with a vise - I have a clamp on vise that has stiff poly covers on the jaws and lightly clamp the connector/cable in place and then slowly close the vise down. It's very easy and effective. The crimp tools made for header conection (IDC/IDS) are essentially a hand worked vise. Technoid@cheta.net wrote: > I have used a vice to crimp connectors but for card-edge connectors I just > stand of the connector with just the heel of my boot and rock slightly. > It is hard to do that way with the header-type connectors without breaking > the locks off. You can use superglue if you do.... Caution with a vise. > I bent the handle on a friend's one time trying to crimp a scsi header > onto some rainbow-colored cable I have. This cable has a little bit more > insulation than is normal and it was hard to get throug. -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Technical Services > Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. > 1979B Hendersonville Road > Asheville, NC 28803 > 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days > 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax > Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? > Technoid@Cheta.net > ----------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 19 13:04:49 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: <20000218212502.B27770@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Feb 18, 0 09:25:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2821 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000219/2e9643df/attachment-0001.ksh From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Feb 19 13:47:09 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: <000e01bf7ae9$eae666c0$0400c0a8@winbook> from Richard Erlacher at "Feb 19, 2000 07:59:23 am" Message-ID: <200002191947.NAA08003@caesar.cs.umn.edu> The Jameco catalog has an IDC crimping tool listed for $11.95 each. http://www.jameco.com/cfm/viewdesc.cfm?part_num=73251 They also sell a IDC bench press for $164.95 -Lawrence LeMay > > >Dick, > > > > Where do you buy such a wonder? I worked on some of the first 8085 > >computers in the mid 70s and we bought a press that was made for putting on > >ICD connectors and I remember that it cost about $450! Personally, I use a > >vice and have no trouble with it. > > > > Joe > > > >At 08:49 PM 2/18/00 -0700, you wrote: > >>There's a tool made specifically for attaching ICD connectors that costs > >>only $15-16. That's quite a bit less than what the fixe-grips cost. > >>They're a parallel-jawed arrangement made of cleverly formed black sheet > >>metal with a yellow plastic seat that fits in the jaws, hinged at the end, > >>like a nutcracker, and which works MUCH better, faster, and more easily > than > >>a vise, plier, even a parallel-jawed pair, as they're usually too small. > >>That seat is almost perfect, but it has a relief for the index tab in the > >>middle of the odd-numbered side of most IDC connectors, but it won't take > >>the ones with two such tabs. I've never seen one of these blister-packed > >>wonders cost more than $19.95, and bought mine for $15 or so. > >> > >>Dick From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 19 17:18:17 2000 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Qume QVT103 terminal Message-ID: Does anyone know what the above is? I have been offered 2 Suns and a DECSystem 5000 by someone who is looking for one or anything else which will connect to a Stride 460 running UCSD p-system. Obvoiusly I would like to help him if possible. Does anyone know of any software which will emulate the above? He contacted me through the Computer Rescue web page so it works ;-) -- Regards Pete From rmeenaks at olf.com Sat Feb 19 17:44:08 2000 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Past Bytes issues Message-ID: <000001bf7b33$3777a640$0a02f2c7@neptune> Hi, I looking for the following Byte issues. I dont need the whole magazine, just scans of the following articles. TIFF files would be the best as I can run an OCR to convert it to text. Also clear scans of the figures, etc is needed as well. 1. Pountain, Dick. Microprocessor design: the transputer and its special language, Occam. BYTE, August 1984, page 361. 2. Walker, Paul. The transputer: a building block for parallel processing. BYTE, May 1985, page 219. 3. Wilson, Pete. Floating-point survival kit. BYTE, Volume 13, Number 3, March 1988, page 217. Thanks. Ram From dburrows at netpath.net Sat Feb 19 17:54:26 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Qume QVT103 terminal Message-ID: <045d01bf7b34$ae0ac340$a652e780@L166> It is a terminal. There are a few listed in the DDA. Contact me off list and I will give you the dealers that have them and their asking prices. That is if all else fails for a list member having one for real cheap. Dealer asking prices are in the $50 to $100 area. Dan -----Original Message----- From: Peter Joules To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, February 19, 2000 6:45 PM Subject: Qume QVT103 terminal >Does anyone know what the above is? I have been offered 2 Suns and a >DECSystem 5000 by someone who is looking for one or anything else which >will connect to a Stride 460 running UCSD p-system. Obvoiusly I would >like to help him if possible. Does anyone know of any software which >will emulate the above? > >He contacted me through the Computer Rescue web page so it works ;-) >-- >Regards >Pete From mark_k at iname.com Sat Feb 19 17:49:49 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:09:39 Joe wrote: > >>Jerome, > >> > >> What are you going to use the MO drive on? Just curious. I have a > >>SMO-501 also. It's SLOW!! The transfer rate and access time are WORSE > >>than a floppy drive. > > > >They weren't that slow. > > Mine is. The access time is something close to 100ms. The transfer rate > is about 2/3 that of a floppy drive. There is probably something wrong with your drive or disks. Try cleaning the surface of your disks, and if that doesn't help you might want to clean the drive lens. For this you can either obtain the appropriate lens cleaning cartridge (I can find the part number for this if necessary), or disassemble the drive to expose the lens and clean it manually. Using a cleaning cartridge is be less risky. If your disks are old, low-level format them after cleaning. >From memory, the (read) data transfer rate of my SMO-S501-11 drive with 600MB media is about 600K/sec; similar to a quad-speed CD-ROM. To put the access time into perspective, it is similar to that of a modern DVD-RAM drive. -- Mark From mark_k at iname.com Sat Feb 19 17:49:04 2000 From: mark_k at iname.com (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: IBM 3363 optical drive Technical Reference Manual wanted Message-ID: Hi, As the subject says, I would like to get hold of a Technical Reference Manual for the IBM 3363 WORM drive. Any ideas where I might find one? (And an ISA adapter card for the 3363 too.) Regards, -- Mark From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Feb 19 18:05:00 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Finds during down time Message-ID: <003b01bf7b36$21f02560$19dab0d0@default> 1. Picked up most of the manuals for Windows 1.0 at the thrift for 10 cents each. 2. about 56 more books 3. Gridcase 386 does no power up but cost 10 dollars at Goodwill. 4. IBM 7208-001 tape unit for my RS6000 box 5. Tandy 600 power supply 6. about 20 mouse pads for my collection 7. Data General 66824 terminal working for 3.95 8. 20 cartridges some coleco and atari 2600's 9. working TRS80 model 100 in nice case for 5 dollars at Goodwill. 10. lots of cables I will to test and figure out what they go to. 11. lots of other items but most are not under the 10 year rule. Anyone in Minneapolis area know were I can get a warehouse over 2000 sq feet for real cheap ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000219/59d9eb95/attachment-0001.html From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Feb 19 18:16:20 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge References: Message-ID: <38AF3254.3891AACF@idirect.com> >Tony Duell wrote: > > Or a "duckbill" vice grip, available at welding supply shops and some auto > > parts shops. Works nicely, and not too strong... A vice is OK but you > > have to be really careful to listen for the clicks, the first one is the > > connector seating, the second one is the connector shattering! > Actually, the first 2 clicks are the connector locks seating, the third > one is the connector breaking in half :-) Jerome Fine replies: Either you vice is very strong or you are - I have never been able to apply that much pressure. > I've crimped dozens of IDC connectors, and I nearly always use a 3" > (across the jaws) bench vice. Slip the cable into the connector, put the > connector between the jaws of the vice, and tighten just enough to hold > it. Check the alignment of the cable, then clamp it up and it's done. I often use a high powered magnifying glass just to be sure that all the pins are aligned with the cable before I tighten the vice. A bright light helps as well. Also, my vice is a bare bones model which has just plain metal jaws. But I rarely do more than 34 pin cables for disk drives. Sometimes I do a 50 pin cable in which case I often need to do as much as possible in the centre - then shift the connector first to one side then the other to achieve a tight enough fit and apply enough pressure and finally finish up back in the centre. > I've never used the 'press' type tools that are shown in some catalogues > for small-production use, and which cost a few hundred pounds and up. > Doubtless they work well, and they'd be a lot faster (I guess) than using > the bench vice. But time is not that important to me as a hobbyist, and > I've got more important things to buy first. I usually don't use that excuse - I just say that I am plain frugal or cheap - which ever seems right at the time.-) Or I say that all expenses must be offset by something else that I sell to justify the new purchase. The hard part is taking old connectors off old cables - the 34/20 pin edge connectors are usually easy. Getting the header off the other end is almost always difficult - inexpensive and time consuming, but difficult. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 19 18:55:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: <38AF3254.3891AACF@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Feb 19, 0 07:16:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2084 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000220/f9710f15/attachment-0001.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Feb 19 20:47:10 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: MSCP Patent Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000219184545.00bde880@mcmanis.com> FWIW, the patent on MSCP, the DEC Mass Storage Control Protocol is #4,449,182. I found it and looked it up at www.uspto.gov. It was issued in May 1984 so should expire in May 2004 (given the revieed 20 yr rule) --Chuck From nerdware at laidbak.com Sat Feb 19 20:32:48 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Apple IIgs stuff for FREE!!! Message-ID: <200002200238.UAA09851@garcon.laidbak.com> Well, you need to pay for boxing and shipping, but other than that.... Here's what I have. I already have two full IIgs systems and my wife is getting a mite touchy about the decreasing free space in the basement.....I'd rather these go to a good, warm, loving home than put 'em on ebay. 4 cpu's All boot through the roms, at least. 4 AppleColor RGB monitors All work 1 Apple HiRes monochrome display (13") 2 5-1/4" floppy drives 2 Imagewriter II's Assume they work, haven't tested 'em. Fairly clean. I'm in the NW Indiana/Chicago area if you want to swing by and pick 'em up and save some shipping. If you want part, fine. If you want the entire pile, better. Just let me know ASAP. I need the space..... Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 19 21:35:14 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Qume QVT103 terminal In-Reply-To: <045d01bf7b34$ae0ac340$a652e780@L166> Message-ID: Is it a straight terminal, or is it a VT100 with a LSI-11 based computer (PDP-11) built into it? The name makes me think it's a rebadged DEC VT103. Zane >It is a terminal. There are a few listed in the DDA. Contact me off list >and I will give you the dealers that have them and their asking prices. >That is if all else fails for a list member having one for real cheap. >Dealer asking prices are in the $50 to $100 area. > >Dan >-----Original Message----- >From: Peter Joules >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Date: Saturday, February 19, 2000 6:45 PM >Subject: Qume QVT103 terminal > > >>Does anyone know what the above is? I have been offered 2 Suns and a >>DECSystem 5000 by someone who is looking for one or anything else which >>will connect to a Stride 460 running UCSD p-system. Obvoiusly I would >>like to help him if possible. Does anyone know of any software which >>will emulate the above? >> >>He contacted me through the Computer Rescue web page so it works ;-) >>-- >>Regards >>Pete | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Sat Feb 19 22:46:48 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: MSCP Patent In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000219184545.00bde880@mcmanis.com>; from cmcmanis@mcmanis.com on Sat, Feb 19, 2000 at 06:47:10PM -0800 References: <4.2.0.58.20000219184545.00bde880@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20000219234648.A31091@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Feb 19, 2000 at 06:47:10PM -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: > FWIW, the patent on MSCP, the DEC Mass Storage Control Protocol is > #4,449,182. I found it and looked it up at www.uspto.gov. It was issued in > May 1984 so should expire in May 2004 (given the revieed 20 yr rule) *20* years?!?! When did *that* happen? It used to be 17 so I've been counting the days until May 2001. And I've been wondering if it really even lasts *that* long because 4,449,182 is the re-examined patent, they had actually patented it earlier (applied for in 1981 I think?) but it got shot down, it certainly seems unfair for someone to be able to extend the length of their patent coverage for four more years because *they* screwed up. But of course the more unfair it is, the more likely it is to be the law... I don't know how they got this patent through in the first place, there's nothing particularly non-obvious (how *else* would you manage message rings? even DigiBoards are a bit similar to MSCP and they're just serial ports) or unique about it and the only thing that makes it "useful" is that they were able to get a patent on it and lock out the usual aftermarket vendors! Really, if you read the patent, all it is is a very detailed description of a particular implementation of plain ol' message queues (plus they tacked on a listing of an early VMS DU: driver, for no reason that I can see other than to try to make it seem more complicated), if you describe *anything* in enough detail you'll be able to come up with some frivolous differences between it and other similar schemes but that doesn't make it patentable. N.B. there was some problem with recording the paperwork for the re-examined patent, the text on womplex is the old version. Well E11 doesn't infringe anyway (luckily the patent is detailed enough that it only talks about host and I/O processors that are "substantially independent" and communicate over a bus), but I was hoping to do some MSCP hardware one of these days, which *would* infringe if the patent were still in force. But the whole point of patents is that in exchange for a fixed monopoly period, you give your invention to the world for free after that period ends, so MSCP will be free for everyone sooner or later. Same with that damn LZW patent, it's getting pretty close too! John Wilson D Bit From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Feb 19 23:01:21 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Qume QVT103 terminal In-Reply-To: References: <045d01bf7b34$ae0ac340$a652e780@L166> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000219210121.009d2b60@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:35 PM 2/19/00 -0800, you wrote: >Is it a straight terminal, or is it a VT100 with a LSI-11 based computer >(PDP-11) built into it? The name makes me think it's a rebadged DEC VT103. No, it is just a Qume clone of a VT-100 series terminal. No backplane or other interesting expantion capabilities. Not a rebadged DEC unit... Think I've got a couple rattling around the warehouse. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Feb 20 01:04:37 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: WTB: 5 1/4" Magneto Optical Cartridges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From memory, the (read) data transfer rate of my SMO-S501-11 drive with 600MB >media is about 600K/sec; similar to a quad-speed CD-ROM. Just FYI a drive and 3 disks is ending its auction in 18 hours on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=258125312 Last price was about $40 From marvin at rain.org Sat Feb 19 01:37:24 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Walkirt Binary Counter References: Message-ID: <38AE4834.D280720D@rain.org> I recently found a Walkirt Binary Counter unit, type 1673, and haven't been able to find any data on it other than a completed ebay auction (closed at $35.00.) Anyone know anything about this unit? According to the description on the completed ebay auction, it uses a 12AT7 and has an 11 pin socket. Thanks. From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Feb 20 02:09:40 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: suggestions on looking for warehouse space? Message-ID: <9a.153c9fc.25e0fb44@aol.com> In a message dated 2/19/2000 4:12:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, jrkeys@concentric.net writes: > > Anyone in Minneapolis area know were I can get a warehouse over 2000 sq. feet > for real cheap ? > >From many years of looking I suggest that you check out basement space in the older industrial district. You want to make sure that it has a freight elevator that works and big enough for full size racks. You also want to make sure that it is dry and has a good floor that a pallet jack will roll around on. Basements are warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer. They are usually the cheapest space around. Sometimes a business real estate rental agent can be a help. Sometimes you can rent partial bays but they may not be secure. Good luck. Paxton From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Feb 20 03:33:32 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: ham radio? References: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8E34@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Message-ID: <01e901bf7b87$bfa7a660$0200a8c0@netcafe.pirie.mtx.net.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Corda Albert J DLVA To: Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 7:31 AM Subject: RE: ham radio? > Wouff-Hong (sp?) Boy, that's an obscure reference. When I was > in high-school, (back in the 70's) I picked up a couple of big > boxes of QST magazines at a ham auction. Most of 'em were from > the 1940's and 50's, but they were _very_ interesting reading, > especially if you were into tinkering with old world-war II > receivers (like the ARC-5 series...) I ran across a number of > articles that mentioned the Wouff-Hong. From what I can remember, > it was a wierdly-shaped piece of wood with a couple of rusty bits > of metal hanging from it (probably was a fragment of an old cart > hitch or something along those lines) From what I can remember, > someone at ARRL headquarters found this item lying around somewhere > in a storage area, and hung it on the wall just for grins. Nobody > knew what it actually was, but it became kind of a joke to threaten > to use it on someone as a punishment instrument if they did something > against the ham ethic. I haven't heard a reference to it since > high-school reading foray into the ham-past. (until now, that is IIRC, the founder of the ARRL, one Hiram Percy Maxim, used the term in his "Rotten Radio" series of articles in the 20's(?). Evidently the ham bands in those good(?) old days were something of a mess (bit like 27mhz now I guess) with all kinds of wierd noises, interference etc etc. IIRC, the particular reference was in the context of a msg heard on air, with a suggestion that a particular LID (Bad Operator) be hit with a (burst of noise that came out as Wouff Hong) and the reference became a standard threat to LID's of all kinds, but it was purely an Americanism, and to my knowledge, did not get used by ops in other countries. I first read about in the same source you did, QST. In particular, it was an article that explained the origin of the term. It was an issue from the late 50's or early 60's but couldn't tell you now which one it was..... I think this is right, it was some years ago that I read all this..... The reference to the actual wood&iron article I think was mentioned in this article as well, and sounds (as near as I can remember) like the description there of the origin of the actual device.. Cheers Geoff Roberts VK5KDR From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 20 08:40:17 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Qume QVT103 terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000220094017.2347fbee@mailhost.intellistar.net> pete, I don't know anything about the Qume terminals but I know where there are a few ADM 5A terminals and one old Hazeltine terminal. Located in Melbourne, Florida. Joe At 11:18 PM 2/19/00 +0000, you wrote: >Does anyone know what the above is? I have been offered 2 Suns and a >DECSystem 5000 by someone who is looking for one or anything else which >will connect to a Stride 460 running UCSD p-system. Obvoiusly I would >like to help him if possible. Does anyone know of any software which >will emulate the above? > >He contacted me through the Computer Rescue web page so it works ;-) >-- >Regards >Pete > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 20 08:48:54 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: <38AEE532.53E32EED@bigfoot.com> References: <200002191750.MAA11153@lexington.ioa.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000220094854.233f9226@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:47 PM 2/19/00 -0600, you wrote: >I make cables with ribbon and header types all the time with a vise - I have >a clamp on vise that has stiff poly covers on the jaws and lightly clamp the >connector/cable in place and then slowly close the vise down. It's very easy >and effective. The crimp tools made for header conection (IDC/IDS) are >essentially a hand worked vise. I do the same thing but I just use the regular jaws. I just take it slow and easy. Even a slight over tightening will crush the connector. Joe From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 20 11:41:06 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard Message-ID: <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com> Here's a new discussion for ya': a top ten list of the best laptop kayboards! I already know who's going to be number 1, but, just the same, here are my picks for the list: Postion Laptop 1. TRS-80 Model 100 2. TRS-80 Model 200 (In the Top 5) Macintosh Portable (In the Top 10) Toshiba T-1000 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 12:30:46 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Finds at the local university salvage Message-ID: <20000220183046.12340.qmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> Last week I finally took an afternoon to peruse the surplus depot at my local university. I had to make two trips because they don't take cash, only checks and money orders. As a result of leaving, I missed out on a VAXstation 3100-42 for $10, but the guy left the two disk boxes behind (total of three RZ-57 drives). They have a wad of Macs of various models in various states. I picked up a Mac IIci for $5 with an Apple video card, 8Mb RAM, 230Mb disk and Asante Ethernet; and a Mac IIcx with only a video card for another $5 (mostly for a spare PSU) I've been looking for a IIci for a while because I was using my brother's old one when it died on me. Now I can return it to him in working condition. If I really felt like it, they had a couple of Quadra 605s for $25, one with memory and disk, one without. Neither had ethernet so I left them behind. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From go at ao.com Sun Feb 20 13:05:30 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000220105614.035f6970@buffy.ao.com> At 05:41 PM 2/20/00 +0000, you wrote: >Here's a new discussion for ya': a top ten list of the best laptop >kayboards! I already know who's going to be number 1, but, just the same, >here are my picks for the list: > >Postion Laptop >1. TRS-80 Model 100 Absolutely! I second the above. Never used a 200, but my 100 still does duty as a cheap, lowpower packet console from time-to-time. It has ALWAYS been my favorite portable kb unit. I tried a couple of cast-off PC clones (an old compac 386-something) and a Toshiba T-1000, but in spite of the computational short-comings of the M100, it still ranks #1 for me for comfort of use. >2. TRS-80 Model 200 >(In the Top 5) Macintosh Portable >(In the Top 10) Toshiba T-1000 I've also done some time on the T-1000 (the floppy-only 8088 unit with 640k) and it's certainly better than average. By comparison, my last two laptops were NEC Versa 6050mx boxes. Wore one out and bought a "factory reconditioned" unit a couple of years ago. Wouldn't you know it: the second unit had the same faults. Keyboard that gets "sticky" after a few months. Case cracks in about three stress points. Soldered components coming "unsoldered" (they used some kind of really soft solder in the 6050 and connectors and components just "rock loose" after being stressed by case flexing.) Basically most new (last 4 years) laptops have marginal keyboards and seemed to be designed to die shortly after their (usually short) warranty runs out. -Gary >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun Feb 20 13:10:59 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com>; from netsurfer_x1@hotmail.com on Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 05:41:06PM +0000 References: <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <20000220131059.X23767@mrbill.net> On Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 05:41:06PM +0000, David Vohs wrote: > Here's a new discussion for ya': a top ten list of the best laptop > kayboards! I already know who's going to be number 1, but, just the same, > here are my picks for the list: > Postion Laptop > 1. TRS-80 Model 100 > 2. TRS-80 Model 200 > (In the Top 5) Macintosh Portable > (In the Top 10) Toshiba T-1000 I'd actually say "Any old Toshiba" in place of the T-1000; I've got a couple of the older Toshiba 3xxx series with the orange/red plasma display that I use as console terminals, since the keyboards are so nice. My GRiD laptop also has a very nice keyboard. Bill -- +----------------+------ ------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | http://www.mrbill.net | +----------------+-------------------+-----------------------+----------+ | When someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown. | | However, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap them. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Feb 20 13:36:04 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000220113424.02a3ad90@mcmanis.com> I got a couple of "free" VT320 terminals with a system I picked up and they both work but they are both pretty dim. (one is reasonably bright after a 30 - 40 minute warm up). Now in the video game market there are kits to rejuvenate a tube but I don't know what the equivalent would be for a VT320. Tony? Anyone? Is there anything I can do? --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Feb 20 15:02:19 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000220105614.035f6970@buffy.ao.com> References: <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >Basically most new (last 4 years) laptops have marginal keyboards and >seemed to be >designed to die shortly after their (usually short) warranty runs out. Isn't that most keyboards? I've gotten a couple new PC keyboards in the last 2-3 years, both have been tossed, and I'm using a 10 year old 101-keyboard with them. My new PowerMac G4/450 is the same way, toss both the keyboard and mouse, and am using an ADB Apple Extended Keyboard II and ADB Mouse II via a ADB-to-USB converter. I've been buying laptops since '87, when I was in the Navy, that's normally all I had room for. The Kaypro 2000 I got in '87 had the best keyboard. The Twinhead in '90 really sucked, so did the P90 in '95, the Apple PowerBook 520c, also in '95 was the best I've gotten since the Twinhead. I've since replaced that with the PowerBook 540c as the 520c screen died, and it was cheaper to get the 540c with an Active Matrix screen than it was to get a replacement for the 520c's Passive Matrix screen, anyway the 540c has the same decent keyboard. One nice feature I've not seen since the Kaypro and Twinhead is the detachable keyboard, of course only the Kaypro had true keys. Gotta agree about the comment on the early Toshiba's, at least the T5200 and prior all had great keyboards! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 20 12:59:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Qume QVT103 terminal In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Feb 19, 0 07:35:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 653 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000220/bc07bb2b/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 20 12:56:39 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: scroungers -- a new chalenge In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000220094854.233f9226@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 20, 0 09:48:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 310 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000220/abd17529/attachment-0001.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Feb 20 15:27:00 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Anyone need a MicroVAX II CPU + memory? Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000220132132.029ce970@mcmanis.com> I've got several spare sets of KA630 and MS630-BB (4MB) boards now. If someone wants a set here is a chance to get one. I'm offering the following: 1 KA630 CPU (MicroVAX II w/ 1MB of RAM on board) 2 MS640-BB 4MB Parity Memory boards 1 3 board Memory buss ribbon cable connector. Their $20 shipping included to anywhere in the US. Outside the US it'll be $15 + whatever postage costs. --Chuck From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Feb 20 15:16:46 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? Message-ID: <000220161646.2560213d@trailing-edge.com> >I got a couple of "free" VT320 terminals with a system I picked up and they >both work but they are both pretty dim. (one is reasonably bright after a >30 - 40 minute warm up). Now in the video game market there are kits to >rejuvenate a tube but I don't know what the equivalent would be for a >VT320. Tony? Anyone? Is there anything I can do? As a very first pass, on most terminals you can crank an internal pot to increase the maximum brightness. You will almost certainly find that there's some interaction with the focus. In *my* opinion, using my current price/performance/effort/time tradeoff matrix, if tweaking the pot doesn't yield a satisfactory display, the right thing to do is get a new CRT for the terminal. Open up an issue of _Processor_ and you'll find dozens of places that sell replacement CRT's for terminals of just about every make. Why go the new CRT route? Yes, it's expensive, but if you're going to be using the terminal into the future (and it'll be just as usable fifteen years from now as it was when it was new) it's the right thing to do. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Feb 20 15:32:34 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: 11/03 WCS? Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000220133152.00be3ac0@mcmanis.com> I have an 11/03 module (M7270) with all of its sockets filled, does that mean it has the WCS option or is it simply FP + EIS ? --Chuck From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Feb 20 16:28:19 2000 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: new finds Message-ID: hit the thrift stores today and found a few neat things like: IBM PS/2 3511 which is a 9595 server SCSI enclosure. apple II business graphics application still in original packaging. PS/2 model 25 with original box that neighbor gave to me for free. some macintosh books and original disks including a cassette tape thats a guided tour of macwrite and macpaint. found an atari 1200xl in box but no power supply. the person says they will check next week to see if they have it. all in all, not a bad weekend. DB Young ICQ: 29427634 view the computers of yesteryear at http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm --You can lead a whore to Vassar, but you can't make her think-- From mbg at world.std.com Sun Feb 20 16:47:02 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: 11/03 WCS? Message-ID: <200002202247.RAA23289@world.std.com> >I have an 11/03 module (M7270) with all of its sockets filled, does that >mean it has the WCS option or is it simply FP + EIS ? The WCS option was an entire separate (quad) *board*, not a chip. What you probably have is the 11/03, 11/2 chipset +EIS/FIS. Also, please note FIS != FPP/FPU/FPA. It is FADD, FSUB, FMUL, FDIV. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 20 15:26:51 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000220113424.02a3ad90@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Feb 20, 0 11:36:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2526 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000220/ecca1fed/attachment-0001.ksh From ccureau at pcstarnet.com Sun Feb 20 17:33:28 2000 From: ccureau at pcstarnet.com (Chris Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Anyone need a MicroVAX II CPU + memory? References: <4.2.0.58.20000220132132.029ce970@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <38B079C8.3502A8D4@pcstarnet.com> Hey, Chuck... I could use those boards for spares in my UVax II. If they're not already spoken for, let me know. Cheers, Chris Chuck McManis wrote: > I've got several spare sets of KA630 and MS630-BB (4MB) boards now. If > someone wants a set here is a chance to get one. I'm offering the following: > 1 KA630 CPU (MicroVAX II w/ 1MB of RAM on board) > 2 MS640-BB 4MB Parity Memory boards > 1 3 board Memory buss ribbon cable connector. > > Their $20 shipping included to anywhere in the US. Outside the US it'll be > $15 + whatever postage costs. > > --Chuck From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 20 18:48:21 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:47 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000220113424.02a3ad90@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000220194821.4f6f094e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Chuck, Those kits are usually just a simple autotransformer that boast the filament voltage by 30% or so. Since it's a transformer it will work on any AC voltage within reason. You just have to find one that matchs the CRT plug. FWIW if those terminals have a cover over the CRT, take it off and clean it and the front of the CRT. It's surprising how much dust gets in between them over the years. Joe At 11:36 AM 2/20/00 -0800, you wrote: >I got a couple of "free" VT320 terminals with a system I picked up and they >both work but they are both pretty dim. (one is reasonably bright after a >30 - 40 minute warm up). Now in the video game market there are kits to >rejuvenate a tube but I don't know what the equivalent would be for a >VT320. Tony? Anyone? Is there anything I can do? > >--Chuck > > From jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com Sun Feb 20 17:59:27 2000 From: jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com (John Dykstra) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: TEAC Data Cassette Drive - Available for cost of shipping Message-ID: I've got an TEAC data cassette drive with SCSI interface, model MT-2ST/N50, available to the first responder for the cost of shipping. The drive works, but there's no warranty. It has had light usage and is in good condition, but I have no idea how much life is left on the heads. This is the drive only--no enclosure or power supply. I also have twelve data cassettes that fit this drive. The "buyer" of the drive has first dibs on these, but if s/he doesn't want them, I'll make them available separately. As far as I know, there's no commercial source for these any more. If you want this drive and/or cassettes, email me your address and desired method of shipping. If I don't hear anything by Wednesday, they go up on eBay. ---- John Dykstra jdykstra@nortelnetworks.com Principal Software Architect voice: +1 651 415-1604 Nortel Networks fax: +1 612 932-8549 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000220/375258a8/attachment-0001.html From jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com Sun Feb 20 17:59:28 2000 From: jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com (John Dykstra) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Archive Viper Data Cartridge Drive - Available for cost of shippi ng Message-ID: I've got an Archive "Viper" 150 MB. data cartridge drive with SCSI interface, model 2150S, available to the first responder for the cost of shipping. The drive worked the last time I used it (several years ago), but there's no warranty. The belt, heads and capstan are unworn and appear in good condition. This is the drive only--no enclosure or power supply. If you want them, I also have seven data cartridges. Althrough they physically fit this drive, they may not all be accepted by the drive's firmware--I have a half memory that certain drives only worked with certain cartridges. If you want this drive and the cartridges, email me your address, desired method of shipping, and whether you want the cartridges. If I don't hear anything by Wednesday, it goes up on eBay. ---- John Dykstra jdykstra@nortelnetworks.com Principal Software Architect voice: +1 651 415-1604 Nortel Networks fax: +1 612 932-8549 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000220/ff6921e5/attachment-0001.html From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 20 18:54:04 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: 11/03 WCS? Message-ID: <200002210054.TAA02943@world.std.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Feb 20, 0 04:16:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1545 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000220/18e943a1/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 20 19:03:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000220194821.4f6f094e@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 20, 0 07:48:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1166 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000221/52abe9b8/attachment-0001.ksh From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Feb 20 19:09:41 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Ham population stats References: <20000216163135.B20438@dbit.dbit.com> <20000216155824.F25662@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <005401bf7c08$56497320$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Shawn T. Rutledge To: Sent: Thursday, 17 February 2000 9:28 Subject: Re: Ham population stats > > Stupid question: what comes out of the other side of a ham TNC these days? > > It used to be Bell 202 modem tones at 1200 baud HDX, over an FM voice signal, > > it *can't* still be that easy though can it? Some place I still have the > > Yeah 1200 baud AFSK hasn't changed but there are many new methods of > doing more-reliable data transfer on HF and also faster speeds on other > frequencies. It would be very cool to be able to use AX.25 Packet from a Vax running VMS. I have seen native AX.25 support for linux, so I guess it wouldn't be too hard to do in VMS. I'd REALLY like to see the support for Baycom modems that linux has too. (TNC's are grossly overpriced - even now). Not sure how you'd do it on a DMB32 or similar though, don't know enough about the hardware or how the o/s talks to it. It's unlikely you could do the same thing exactly the same way. On a pc it uses the serial port handshaking lines (presumably so slower machines wouldn't miss something whilst the TNC emulation TSR was busily translating the raw AX.25 - something I suspect is not really necessary unless it's a REALLY slow machine (at 1200bps anyway). I suspect if a Vax can cope with an asyncronous decnet connection @ 9600 on a DMB serial port, AX.25 TNC emulation @ 1200 should be no problem.... Hmmmm...... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Feb 20 19:16:07 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Ham population stats References: Message-ID: <006c01bf7c09$3b5a8080$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tony Duell To: Sent: Thursday, 17 February 2000 5:14 Subject: Re: Ham population stats > > On Topic: I want to use the PDP 11/44 to talk to my (vintage) AEA > > PK232 Multi-Mode terminal node controller... but even more I want > > Is there any problem in doing that? Just link the TNC to a spare DL11 in > the 11/44. Have to agree. Bare minimum for packet is a terminal and a TNC, provided you don't want to save anything. > > to lash up an RTTY program for the PDP, to send and recieve Baudot > > in real time. > > DL11s can be jumpered for 5 bits and 1.5 stop bits IIRC. Any Vax hardware that could do this trick? Particularly the DMB32 I mentioned previously? The ports are good to 19,200 F/D but no idea of the UART's (or whatever it is they use instead) Call me obsessed (aren't we all?) but the idea of being able to do packet and rtty from the one Vax with just modems and all the AX.25 etc done in software appeals to me. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Feb 20 19:25:23 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? Message-ID: <000220202523.25602173@trailing-edge.com> >> issue of _Processor_ and you'll find dozens of places that sell >> replacement CRT's for terminals of just about every make. >You're lucky!. Monochrome CRTs are almost impossible to obtain in the UK >-- most places that I've tried tell me that it's not worth replacing >them. This is probably correct if the unit in question is a \pounds 50.00 >portable TV. As long as we're on this subject - are B&W TV's with screens larger than 5 inches or so still common in the UK, Europe, Russia, anywhere? It's been at least 15 years since B&W TV's with 12" or larger screens were available here in the US. You *can* still find new composite-input B&W video monitors up into the 9" or 12" size range, but these are marketed towards closed-circuit TV (i.e. security) installations and tend to be more expensive than color TV's of the same size. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 20 19:56:37 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: <000220202523.25602173@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Feb 20, 0 08:25:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 571 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000221/03063672/attachment-0001.ksh From bsa3 at cornell.edu Sun Feb 20 20:17:58 2000 From: bsa3 at cornell.edu (Brad Ackerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: TEAC Data Cassette Drive - Available for cost of shipping In-Reply-To: ; from John Dykstra on Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 05:59:27PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20000220211758.A3740@cornell.edu> On Sun, Feb 20, 2000 at 05:59:27PM -0600, John Dykstra wrote: [re Teac cassette drive] > I also have twelve data cassettes that fit this drive. The "buyer" of the > drive has first dibs on these, but if s/he doesn't want them, I'll make them > available separately. As far as I know, there's no commercial source for > these any more. Is this the model that takes tapes which look like consumer analog audiocassettes? If so, I bought some Maxell-brand tapes for one of these from Colamco about four years ago. -- Brad Ackerman N1MNB "You're a cyborg -- look it up." bsa3@cornell.edu Wandering Gweep -- Bradley Rhodes, to Josh Weaver PGP: 0x62D6B223 http://skaro.pair.com/ IAP lecture, 21 January 2000 From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Feb 20 20:45:02 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: References: <000220202523.25602173@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000220213601.00b67d70@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:56 AM 2/21/00 +0000, Tony Duell said something like: >> As long as we're on this subject - are B&W TV's with screens larger than >> 5 inches or so still common in the UK, Europe, Russia, anywhere? > >I've no idea if they're still being made (I've long since given up buying >_new_ consumer electronics [1]), but certainly 12" B&W portable TVs were >sold in the UK very recently. There's a cheaper TV license if you only >have B&W TVs, you see. You _still_ need a license to own a radio or TV in the UK Tony? I knew that to be the case from the earliest days of radio before WWII but I hadn't heard of that being done in recent times. BTW, I've got a 1930-vintage license which came with my 1926-vintage RCA Radiola 20 which once was owned by a fellow up in Nova Scotia province. > >[1] In my experience it's better to rebuild a 10-year-old TV or VCR and >have a machine that will last a good few years than buy a new one which >will fail in a year's time. Sure _is_ junk sold nowadays! Ugh! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From broth at heathers.stdio.com Mon Feb 21 21:07:01 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Goodies Message-ID: <38B1FD55.139AA309@heathers.stdio.com> Just picked up some interesting goodies this weekend. How about a UNIVAC 1610 card punch station. Its in great shape and I think it'll work with a good degrunging. Also got a whole boatload of DEC manuals and handbooks including the original handbook for the classic 8 including a software reference and price list. I also received a VAXstation II that had a card by CMD in it. It may be wishful thinking but it has a 50 pin header on it with three resistor packs like a SCSI. The model is CQD-220/M. Anyone heard of this one? Brian. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Feb 20 20:43:58 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000220105614.035f6970@buffy.ao.com> <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >101-keyboard with them. My new PowerMac G4/450 is the same way, toss both >the keyboard and mouse, and am using an ADB Apple Extended Keyboard II and >ADB Mouse II via a ADB-to-USB converter. Apple Extended Keyboard II is one of the best. Most Apple brand keyboards though have some "following", ie different people think different models are the best. From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Feb 20 21:52:45 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Goodies References: <38B1FD55.139AA309@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: <38B0B68D.282366AC@idirect.com> >Brian Roth wrote: > Just picked up some interesting goodies this weekend. How about a UNIVAC > 1610 card punch station. Its in great shape and I think it'll work with > a good degrunging. Also got a whole boatload of DEC manuals and > handbooks including the original handbook for the classic 8 including a > software reference and price list. Jerome Fine replies: I remember cutting my teeth on a UNIVAC 1107 - well, not my first computer which was an IBM 650. But at this point, I don't feel I want to go back to using punch cards. > I also received a VAXstation II that had a card by CMD in it. It may be > wishful thinking but it has a 50 pin header on it with three resistor > packs like a SCSI. The model is CQD-220/M. Anyone heard of this one? The CQD-220/M is a SCSI host adapter for hard disk drives ONLY - no tape drives allowed. CMD also made a disk/tape version called a CQD-220/TM as well as a tape ONLY version called CQD-220/T. The CQD-220/M is likely useful to others, so perhaps offer it for sale if you don't have a use for it. I would certainly buy it if you are not going to use it yourself. But, if you are going to use your uVAX II, just hook up a SCSI drive and it should run. Is your VAXstation II the model which is a BA23 with 3 slots filled with epoxy? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Feb 20 22:04:04 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Goodies In-Reply-To: <38B1FD55.139AA309@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000220200221.028a9100@mcmanis.com> At 10:07 PM 2/21/00 -0500, Brian Roth wrote: >Just picked up some interesting goodies this weekend. How about a UNIVAC >1610 card punch station. Its in great shape and I think it'll work with >a good degrunging. Also got a whole boatload of DEC manuals and >handbooks including the original handbook for the classic 8 including a >software reference and price list. Neat, didn't happen to get a KA655 or KA650 CPU Technical Manual did you? That ones on my wishlist. >I also received a VAXstation II that had a card by CMD in it. It may be >wishful thinking but it has a 50 pin header on it with three resistor >packs like a SCSI. The model is CQD-220/M. Anyone heard of this one? Looks like you scored Brian, that would be the CMD SCSI disk controller, about the only thing better would be the CQD-220/TM which does tape and disk. --Chuck From mac at Wireless.Com Sun Feb 20 22:14:07 2000 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The best keyboard ever invented is on the ThinkPad 770. Period. And I've been using keyboards of all types since 1959. -Mike On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >101-keyboard with them. My new PowerMac G4/450 is the same way, toss both > >the keyboard and mouse, and am using an ADB Apple Extended Keyboard II and > >ADB Mouse II via a ADB-to-USB converter. > > Apple Extended Keyboard II is one of the best. Most Apple brand keyboards > though have some "following", ie different people think different models > are the best. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Feb 21 00:45:28 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:56:37AM +0000 References: <000220202523.25602173@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000221014528.A1530@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 01:56:37AM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > [1] In my experience it's better to rebuild a 10-year-old TV or VCR and > have a machine that will last a good few years than buy a new one which > will fail in a year's time. Plus, the older ones probably won't have the fascist anti-copying filters! BTW, do Sams Photofacts still exist, and if so can they be ordered on-line? Our old VCR has been getting picky about what channels it will and won't receive, but I'm probably too dense to repair a tuner even *with* schematics, let alone without. But the only real electronics shop in the area can't get Photofacts any more... John Wilson D Bit From nerdware at laidbak.com Mon Feb 21 00:46:39 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: IIgs stuff update Message-ID: <200002210646.AAA25409@garcon.laidbak.com> Hello, boys and girls. I got four responses right off the bat, so I'm going to sort out who wants what and then I'll post what's left in a couple of days. Thanks to those who responded so far. I'm glad they're going to go to classiccmp people....I've gotten a few orphans that way, so I'm glad to be able to give something back. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Feb 21 02:58:51 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Hamfinds, what is it? In-Reply-To: References: <000220161646.2560213d@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Feb 20, 0 04:16:46 pm Message-ID: Among my bucket of wonders from the Cal Poly Pomona hamfest I have a pair of DIGITAL processor cards. Roughly 6x8 inches with two socket 5 zif sockets, one empty, one with a P90. DIGITAL is marked on it, 1994, a barcode label with *TA445F1042 (other card is different), on the back is a second bar code and the same number is also on the board *54-23534-02*. What is it? Yes I know its a P54C cpu board, but what did it go in? My only planned use is to nab the p90 off each of them, so let me know if its something usefull. The 256k cache simm is also still on it. ************* Teletype 33 on a nasty stand, someones treasure, but sure wasn't mine. Might be at TRW though the guy was a regular hamfest seller. From flo at rdel.co.uk Mon Feb 21 03:22:23 2000 From: flo at rdel.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? References: Message-ID: <38B103CF.39EDC9BB@rdel.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > > I'd start by cleaning the screen. Yes, you can laugh, but it caught > me once, on a VT100. I spent a morning tracing a dim picture which > turned out to be a screen coated in 10 years of gunge! No! That's my anti-glare layer! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Feb 21 03:23:50 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >The best keyboard ever invented is on the ThinkPad 770. Period. Maybe so, but I don't get to touch my wife's 770. She seems to like it, too much. ;) From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Feb 21 07:49:35 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Reminds me of that Dilbert cartoon where his wife accuses him of loving his computer more than her, to which he responds, "I do not love *this* computer more than you," and thinking, "Don't ask about the laptop, don't ask about the laptop..." Aaron On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Mike Ford wrote: > >The best keyboard ever invented is on the ThinkPad 770. Period. > > Maybe so, but I don't get to touch my wife's 770. She seems to like it, too > much. ;) > > From jdarren at ala.net Mon Feb 21 08:15:59 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (J. Darren Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: free Tektronix 7A26 manual for shipping costs Message-ID: <001a01bf7c76$2ddce660$0f186bce@darren> I would like to find a home for a Tektronix 7A26 Dual Trace Amplifier Instruction Manual and will give it for the cost of shipping. The shipping will be $3.20 for USPS Priority Mail. I will send to first person to contact. Thanks. From jdarren at ala.net Mon Feb 21 08:17:28 2000 From: jdarren at ala.net (J. Darren Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: free Tektronix 7603 manual for shipping costs Message-ID: <002801bf7c76$63188640$0f186bce@darren> I would like to find a home for a Tektronix 7603 / R7603 Oscilloscope Service Manual and will give it for the cost of shipping. The shipping will be $3.20 for USPS Priority Mail. I will send to first person to contact. Thanks. From broth at heathers.stdio.com Tue Feb 22 08:18:48 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Goodies References: <4.2.0.58.20000220200221.028a9100@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <38B29AC8.28E76237@heathers.stdio.com> Chuck, Chuck McManis wrote: > At 10:07 PM 2/21/00 -0500, Brian Roth wrote: > >Just picked up some interesting goodies this weekend. How about a UNIVAC > >1610 card punch station. Its in great shape and I think it'll work with > >a good degrunging. Also got a whole boatload of DEC manuals and > >handbooks including the original handbook for the classic 8 including a > >software reference and price list. > > Neat, didn't happen to get a KA655 or KA650 CPU Technical Manual did you? > That ones on my wishlist. > I haven't run across one yet. I still have some box's to go through. I'll let you know if there is one in there. > > >I also received a VAXstation II that had a card by CMD in it. It may be > >wishful thinking but it has a 50 pin header on it with three resistor > >packs like a SCSI. The model is CQD-220/M. Anyone heard of this one? > > Looks like you scored Brian, that would be the CMD SCSI disk controller, > about the only thing better would be the CQD-220/TM which does tape and disk. > > --Chuck From broth at heathers.stdio.com Tue Feb 22 08:28:39 2000 From: broth at heathers.stdio.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Goodies References: <38B1FD55.139AA309@heathers.stdio.com> <38B0B68D.282366AC@idirect.com> Message-ID: <38B29D17.A8A033FD@heathers.stdio.com> Jerome, Jerome Fine wrote: > >Brian Roth wrote: > > > Just picked up some interesting goodies this weekend. How about a UNIVAC > > 1610 card punch station. Its in great shape and I think it'll work with > > a good degrunging. Also got a whole boatload of DEC manuals and > > handbooks including the original handbook for the classic 8 including a > > software reference and price list. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I remember cutting my teeth on a UNIVAC 1107 - well, not my first > computer which was an IBM 650. But at this point, I don't feel I > want to go back to using punch cards. > > > I also received a VAXstation II that had a card by CMD in it. It may be > > wishful thinking but it has a 50 pin header on it with three resistor > > packs like a SCSI. The model is CQD-220/M. Anyone heard of this one? > > The CQD-220/M is a SCSI host adapter for hard disk drives ONLY - no > tape drives allowed. CMD also made a disk/tape version called a > CQD-220/TM as well as a tape ONLY version called CQD-220/T. > > The CQD-220/M is likely useful to others, so perhaps offer it for sale > if you don't have a use for it. I would certainly buy it if you are not > going to use it yourself. But, if you are going to use your uVAX II, > just hook up a SCSI drive and it should run. Is your VAXstation II the > model which is a BA23 with 3 slots filled with epoxy? > I did get on their site after posting this. They only have manuals for the 220A and by the looks of the configuration diagrams it is not the same card. Newer ones used dips and this one has jumpers. Chip placement is all different as well. Does anyone have at least jumper info for this guy? I do plan on keeping this one. I have been looking for a decently priced Q-bus SCSI card for a while. Go figure I find one for free... > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Feb 21 09:08:49 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Univac was Re: Goodies In-Reply-To: <38B1FD55.139AA309@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000221100849.316f782e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Brian, I spotted a Univar 1540 in a scrap yard here (central Florida). It looks MOL complete but it's condition can best be described as "rough". Joe At 10:07 PM 2/21/00 -0500, you wrote: >Just picked up some interesting goodies this weekend. How about a UNIVAC >1610 card punch station. Its in great shape and I think it'll work with >a good degrunging. Also got a whole boatload of DEC manuals and >handbooks including the original handbook for the classic 8 including a >software reference and price list. > >I also received a VAXstation II that had a card by CMD in it. It may be >wishful thinking but it has a 50 pin header on it with three resistor >packs like a SCSI. The model is CQD-220/M. Anyone heard of this one? > > >Brian. > > From jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com Mon Feb 21 08:51:57 2000 From: jdykstra at nortelnetworks.com (John Dykstra) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Archive Viper and TEAC data cassette drives are spoken for Message-ID: And sorry for the HTML. If Outlook 97 has an option to send plain text, they've got it well hidden. ---- John Dykstra jdykstra@nortelnetworks.com Principal Software Architect voice: ESN 454-1604 Carrier Packet Solutions fax: ESN 667-8549 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000221/5013ed03/attachment-0001.html From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Feb 21 09:02:57 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Stuff to trade/stuff I'm looking for Message-ID: While I'm thinking about it, I thought I'd do a quick troll for stuff I've been looking for. I'd rather trade around for stuff, but I'd be willing to pay real money (gasp) for some stuff: A keyboard for my HP2649 terminal HP2392, HP2622, or HP2645 terminal. I need one for my 3000 (using a laptop with an HP term program right now). The 2649 I have is dubious; I get a screen full of what looks like garbage to me, but then again, I don't have a keyboard and, in addition, the 2649 is interesting in that it could have a custom program on it for something other than being a straight terminal. An HD for my HP3000 that will fit in the bottom rack space. I've gotten some great info from Joe Rigdon on models and have my eyes open; I need something big enough so that I can do the initial install of MPE V 3P with full subsys (it's been estimated that I need at least 100mb or so). Qbus ethernet card (for my 11/23 compat) Qbus scsi controller card Qbus MFM controller card A scsi interface for the Atari ST (like an ICD/etc). A Hayes Smartmodem 2400 w/ps. What I currently have to trade: Sparcprinter w/LP sbus interface card/required cables Sparc 1 w/24megs ram (If you want both, I'll give you the lpviio.h header file for Ghostscript and you could use linux to make a printer server - i.e., cheap networked laser printer for Mac/Windows/Unix machines) SunOS 4.1 System Manual, volumes I - III SunOS 4.0 Network Administrator's Guide SunView Programmers Guide I'm sure there's a couple others (all 3-ring binders) Cables, cables, cables. DB25 and DB9 serial, AT keyboard extenders, other misc, lots of them. Cat5 patch bay, 24 ports. (warning: not yet classic in the list sense) 486 laptops in various states. A bunch of working Epson Action Note 650's, a working Epson Action Note 895c (color, Cyrix DX4-100). Pentium laptops, mostly pieces. Retired for cracked screens/non operational. Some of the Dell P-75 bases work fine (cracked screens). I'd gladly entertain interesting trades for any of this stuff, with one caveat: I am the world's worst shipper. It takes me a long time to do it, and I hate it with a passion. As a general rule, I really won't ship anything that weighs more than 20 pounds total. Also, I mostly got this stuff for free/trades, so I don't really want to "sell" any of it... I'll be at TRW this month, so I'd be happy to bring anything down there with me...just let me know if you want any of it! Cheers, Aaron From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Feb 21 10:39:14 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Stuff to trade/stuff I'm looking for In-Reply-To: from Aaron Christopher Finney at "Feb 21, 2000 07:02:57 am" Message-ID: <200002211639.LAA02744@bg-tc-ppp738.monmouth.com> > Sparcprinter w/LP sbus interface card/required cables > SunOS 4.1 System Manual, volumes I - III > SunOS 4.0 Network Administrator's Guide > SunView Programmers Guide > I'm sure there's a couple others (all 3-ring binders) I'm interested in the interface card and cables -- I've got a bunch of Sparcprinters here. > 486 laptops in various states. A bunch of working Epson Action Note 650's, > a working Epson Action Note 895c (color, Cyrix DX4-100). How much memory/disk...? I'm looking for a laptop to run Linux/FreeBSD (even 500mb of disk will do and 16mb of memory or more on a 486 or higher). I've got the PCMCIA network cards and modems for the rest. > > Pentium laptops, mostly pieces. Retired for cracked screens/non > operational. Some of the Dell P-75 bases work fine (cracked screens). > Bill bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? From liste at artware.qc.ca Mon Feb 21 11:10:17 2000 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: On 20-Feb-00 David Vohs wrote: > Here's a new discussion for ya': a top ten list of the best laptop > kayboards! I already know who's going to be number 1, but, just the > same, > here are my picks for the list: > > Postion Laptop > 1. TRS-80 Model 100 Hear hear! > 2. TRS-80 Model 200 > (In the Top 5) Macintosh Portable > (In the Top 10) Toshiba T-1000 I used a T-1100 extensively in 1992 while I was in Bolivia. I don't remember a particular fondness for the keyboard. However, this was back before keyboards started to suck, so maybe I wasn't as alert to keyboard feel. BTW : what *is* it about keyboards these days? I use a 5 year old keytronics keyboard. The K, L, N and M keys now lack letters (right handed guitarist with long fingernails). I've thought of replacing it, but none of the keyboards I try have the same hard feel. They all feel wishy-washy. I'm currently concidering a (not classic) happy hacking keyboard, but wish I could try one out first. -Philip From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Feb 21 11:35:28 2000 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard Message-ID: <8025688C.00608C64.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > Here's a new discussion for ya': a top ten list of the best laptop > kayboards! I already know who's going to be number 1, but, just the same, > here are my picks for the list: OK, I'll be controversial. 1. Epson HX20 2. Tandy TRS-80 model 100 3.... I've never used any other laptops with decent keyboards. In fact, I've used very few pcs with decent keyboards. I have a PS/2 keyboard on my machine at work - it has followed me through at least three machines now... Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Feb 21 16:56:21 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Amiga and BSD o/s Message-ID: Hello, all you guys out there I'm wanting to try out one (or both) of Open BSD and NetBSD on my lil' ol' Amiga -- I really need someone who has gone through the teething process of formatting drives and instaling necessary files, etc. Amiga o/s is neat, but Id like to get into something with a more viable future. Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP Amigaphile and boatanchor collector PS -- liked that ref to Univax -- reminded me of the Jetsons cartoon where the robot was called Uniblab . . . From steverob at hotoffice.com Mon Feb 21 12:27:44 2000 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: MPE Update was "Stuff to trade" Message-ID: <01BF7C6F.701E20E0.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > An HD for my HP3000 that will fit in the bottom rack space. I've gotten > some great info from Joe Rigdon on models and have my eyes open; I need > something big enough so that I can do the initial install of MPE V 3P with > full subsys (it's been estimated that I need at least 100mb or so). Received my MPE tapes on Friday and installed the OS and patches over the weekend. Everything worked out just fine. It's really nice having *ALL* the subsystems again :-) Steve Robertson From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Feb 21 12:38:40 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: MPE Update was "Stuff to trade" In-Reply-To: <01BF7C6F.701E20E0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: Congratulations! I'm really looking forward to being able to reload... On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Steve Robertson wrote: > > > > An HD for my HP3000 that will fit in the bottom rack space. I've gotten > > some great info from Joe Rigdon on models and have my eyes open; I need > > something big enough so that I can do the initial install of MPE V 3P > with > > full subsys (it's been estimated that I need at least 100mb or so). > > Received my MPE tapes on Friday and installed the OS and patches over the > weekend. Everything worked out just fine. It's really nice having *ALL* the > subsystems again :-) > > Steve Robertson > > > From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Feb 21 12:54:59 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: T.D. Systems TDL-12 Message-ID: <20000221.125501.218.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: Anybody know what this is? I'm almost certain it is a Q-BUS SCSI adaptor, but is it for disk, tape, or ??? Is is MSCP? Does it emulate RK-0x's, or what? Thanks! Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From spc at armigeron.com Mon Feb 21 13:31:25 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <8025688C.00608C64.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Feb 21, 2000 05:35:28 PM Message-ID: <200002211931.OAA20035@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk once stated: > > > > > > > Here's a new discussion for ya': a top ten list of the best laptop > > kayboards! I already know who's going to be number 1, but, just the same, > > here are my picks for the list: 1. Data General/1. 2. There are no other laptop keyboards worth talking about. > In fact, I've used very few pcs with decent keyboards. I have a PS/2 keyboard > on my machine at work - it has followed me through at least three machines > now... Each year I've attended the Miami Hamfest, I always pick up any IBM AT or PS/2 keyboards as they're the only ones I'll use anymore. Even if I don't have an immediate use for them. -spc (And they seem to go for about $5, incredibly enough) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 21 12:46:01 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: <20000221014528.A1530@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Feb 21, 0 01:45:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1630 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000221/83571358/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 21 12:40:59 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000220213601.00b67d70@206.231.8.2> from "Christian Fandt" at Feb 20, 0 09:45:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2614 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000221/c7b8386a/attachment-0001.ksh From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Feb 21 14:13:10 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <8025688C.00608C64.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk>; from Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk on Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 05:35:28PM +0000 References: <8025688C.00608C64.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <20000221141310.K23767@mrbill.net> On Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 05:35:28PM +0000, Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > In fact, I've used very few pcs with decent keyboards. I have a PS/2 keyboard > on my machine at work - it has followed me through at least three machines > now... > Philip. Surprised I'm the first person to mention these (altho not laptop, they fit the 10-year rule): Northgate Omnikey keyboards. I find these at the local Goodwill Computerworks from time to time for $5 each, and I snag them as fast as I see them. I've got a hoard of five or so now, and unless my fiancee uses them (she smokes, and tends to fill keyboards with ashes) they last forever. My other favorite keyboards are the classic IBM "big clicky" 101-key, and the Sun Type5 (dunno if the T5 meets the 10year rule tho). Bill -- +----------------+------ ------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | http://www.mrbill.net | +----------------+-------------------+-----------------------+----------+ | When someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown. | | However, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap them. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Feb 21 15:10:06 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <20000221141310.K23767@mrbill.net>; from mrbill@mrbill.net on Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 02:13:10PM -0600 References: <8025688C.00608C64.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> <20000221141310.K23767@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20000221161006.A3421@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 02:13:10PM -0600, Bill Bradford wrote: > Surprised I'm the first person to mention these (altho not laptop, they > fit the 10-year rule): > > Northgate Omnikey keyboards. They're that old? Dee One Systems was selling them new surprisingly recently, I *almost* love mine but I've got two main complaints: - why is the autorepeat so fast? if you lean on Del by accident you delete half your file, it repeats much faster than the actual rate you program it for - I wish the "=" keypad key sent a different scan code from the one on the main keyboard, so I could use it to do an *exact* emulation of the VT100 keypad, but it seems there's no way to tell them apart I really like the keyboard otherwise though -- the best of both worlds, it has all the keys (I'm talking about the Omnikey 102 here), but the function keys are on the left as god intended, and the Ctrl key is where it belongs too. Really hated to have to retrain my fingers after all that time using good ol' well-made 83/84-key keyboards. I like the *feel* of Focus keyboards, but they just don't last. They've been around long enough that they only recently dropped the XT/AT mode switch, but they don't seem to have survived the transition to PS/2 connectors, and certainly not USB, oh well so much for that. Anyway IMHO nothing will ever beat the feel and layout of the DEC VT100 keyboard! Or whichever 8-bit luggable cloned it (Kaypro?). John Wilson D Bit From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Feb 21 15:45:34 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <20000221161006.A3421@dbit.dbit.com>; from wilson@dbit.dbit.com on Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 04:10:06PM -0500 References: <8025688C.00608C64.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> <20000221141310.K23767@mrbill.net> <20000221161006.A3421@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20000221154534.P23767@mrbill.net> On Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 04:10:06PM -0500, John Wilson wrote: > Anyway IMHO nothing will ever beat the feel and layout of the DEC VT100 > keyboard! Or whichever 8-bit luggable cloned it (Kaypro?). >From my experience, the TRS-80 Model III/IV came pretty close... Bill -- +----------------+------ ------------+-----------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | http://www.mrbill.net | +----------------+-------------------+-----------------------+----------+ | When someone annoys you, it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown. | | However, it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and slap them. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 21 16:17:16 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000220105614.035f6970@buffy.ao.com> <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >>101-keyboard with them. My new PowerMac G4/450 is the same way, toss both >>the keyboard and mouse, and am using an ADB Apple Extended Keyboard II and >>ADB Mouse II via a ADB-to-USB converter. > >Apple Extended Keyboard II is one of the best. Most Apple brand keyboards >though have some "following", ie different people think different models >are the best. I think that $*#_)* USB atrocity is the one exception to this :^) Well, I have heard of one or two people liking it, but on the G4 list I'm on almost everyone wants to replace it. It took me a couple of hellish days to get the ADB-to-USB converter . The other real popular Apple keyboard seems to be the 'adjustable' one. I've got to admit to being rather partial to the old tiny ADB keyboard for the Apple //gs, although since I got one, it's never been on a //gs :^) Works great for Mac's though! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From msg at waste.org Mon Feb 21 16:26:25 2000 From: msg at waste.org (Infra) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: SVR4.0 'mdevice' file entry needed... Message-ID: Greetings, Would those of you with access to a SysV R4.0 system (eg. SysV/386 R4.0) please inspect /etc/conf/cf.d/mdevice for the entry beginning with 'klm' and report the results to me? If you find it could you also grab the 'space.c' files in /etc/conf/pack.d/klm and /etc/conf/pack.d/nfs directories (very small files). We're trying to fix nfs on an old box and would really appreciate your help. Thanks, Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Feb 21 16:30:48 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Great finds today Message-ID: <002e01bf7cbb$4e678940$1b711fd1@default> Went to the local thrift and came away with the following: 1. Grid model 2260 without power supply and pen for $1 2. Vtech child see-through laptop with mouse for $5 3. A complete early model sega unit with lots of cartridges for $1 4 A box of 2600 cartridges for $1 5. A 7800 unit with cartridges for $1 6. A large box full of Mac software ( 11 boxes) for $1 7. A Mattel unit with lots of extras for $1 Those were the highlights the many other items will be list another day. Keep computing John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000221/ddbaa1d0/attachment-0001.html From vaxman at uswest.net Mon Feb 21 16:33:45 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: TV License in UK (was Re: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ummm.... Why do you need a license to operate a TV in the UK? And does this only apply to boxes capable of receiving a broadcast signal, or would my laptop with a DVD player fall under the rules... Clint (slightly mystified) From spc at armigeron.com Mon Feb 21 16:44:20 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Amiga and BSD o/s In-Reply-To: from "Gary Hildebrand" at Feb 21, 2000 05:56:21 PM Message-ID: <200002212244.RAA29333@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Gary Hildebrand once stated: > > Hello, all you guys out there > > I'm wanting to try out one (or both) of Open BSD and NetBSD on my lil' ol' > Amiga -- I really need someone who has gone through the teething process of > formatting drives and instaling necessary files, etc. I just recently installed NetBSD on one of the HP/Apollo 400s I have (actually, both, but the second one might have bad SCSI drives) and it was a nightmare. From reading the documentation for the HP, Sun (since I have a 3/80) and VAX (since I have three of them) it seems the installation process is different for each one, depending upon how you want to install it. I probably can't help with actual specific details about the Amiga installation, but I can help with some general info---like the partitions for NetBSD: NetBSD (like most BSD derived systems) use the following convention for partitions (I don't recall the exact terminology used): Partion letter use a filesystem b swap c entire disk Partitions `d' and above can be used for whatever you need. I can't say for the Amiga, but on the HP NetBSD install, ``disklabel'' (their version of ``fdisk'') was abysmal, requiring me to know the exact geometry of the disk (a SCSI disk no less), and I had to work out by hand the partition table. So, I had a disk with the following geometry: Head: 9 Tracks: 1540 Sectors/Track: 60 Sectors/Cyl: 540 Total Sectors: 831,060 ``disklabel'' asked the starting offset (in blocks) and size of each partition. You have to include space for the bootloader (a cylinder) and I wanted 32M of swap (usual convention is twice the physical RAM, but I wanted to split the swap space between the two drives) so breaking out the calculator and pencil, I worked out the following: Partition: Start Size a 540 765524 b 766064 65536 c 0 831,060 The rest weren't used. I should warn you that if the Amiga install is anything like the HP install, it'll be incredibly braindead and you have to type EXACTLY what they are expecting (the install program accepted ``disklabel'' but rejected ``disklabel '' (note extra space)) and you may have to do it twice. And READ everything TWICE before you start---it's all there but sometimes you have to read between the lines (I found out after wasting several hours that the boot process was indeed working, but because the kernel didn't support the video system in my particular HP the screen would go blank. It wasn't until I hooked up a terminal did I find it actually working). > Amiga o/s is neat, but Id like to get into something with a more viable > future. Why? The AmigaOS still works. Why ruin it with Unix? -spc (Most fun OS to program under) From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Feb 21 17:06:09 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:48 2005 Subject: Goodies References: <38B1FD55.139AA309@heathers.stdio.com> <38B0B68D.282366AC@idirect.com> <38B29D17.A8A033FD@heathers.stdio.com> Message-ID: <38B1C4E1.FC6C056@idirect.com> >Brian Roth wrote: > I did get on their site after posting this. They only have manuals for the > 220A and by the looks of the configuration diagrams it is not the same card. > Newer ones used dips and this one has jumpers. Chip placement is all different > as well. Does anyone have at least jumper info for this guy? Jerome Fine replies: I have access to the CQD 220/TM manual somewhere. I will dig it out ASAP. Does anyone else have the full list of jumper settings to post somewhere? > I do plan on keeping this one. I have been looking for a decently priced Q-bus > SCSI card for a while. Go figure I find one for free... That way always seems to be the most satisfying. Good luck with it!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Feb 21 17:14:43 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000220105614.035f6970@buffy.ao.com> <20000220174106.78173.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >I think that $*#_)* USB atrocity is the one exception to this :^) Well, I >have heard of one or two people liking it, but on the G4 list I'm on almost >everyone wants to replace it. It took me a couple of hellish days to get >the ADB-to-USB converter . > >The other real popular Apple keyboard seems to be the 'adjustable' one. >I've got to admit to being rather partial to the old tiny ADB keyboard for >the Apple //gs, although since I got one, it's never been on a //gs :^) >Works great for Mac's though! USB is a force from PCville that could not be avoided for marketing reasons. Steve Jobs loved it because it makes people buy new equipment. I "know" I will use it, but I am not paying a premium to get in line anytime soon. BTW that the Apple Ergonomic keyboard, which sold originally for about $450, but to karpal tunnel suffers is well worth the cost. Every single one I have found in the used market has had some bad or sticky keys, so it doesn't rise up too far on my personal list of keyboards. The IIgs was actually the first ADB apple product IIRC. Very popular keyboard, mostly I think because of its small size, but some like the highly sculpted key caps too. Here is a little keyboard info Apple extended keyboard II model 3501 Apple ADB mouse model G5431, rectangle, my old favorite Apple keyboard model M0116, much more compact Apple extended Keyboard model M0115 Apple adjustable keyboard with keypad model M1242 The IIgs was numbered differently, something like 658-4250 (I could just look, as I must have 10 of every known apple keyboard except the ergonomic). From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Feb 21 17:26:55 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: TV License in UK (was Re: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors?) References: Message-ID: <38B1C9BF.516D3C40@mainecoon.com> "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote: > Ummm.... Why do you need a license to operate a TV in the UK? It's semi-historical. For the longest time UK viewers could only watch the BBC (BBC1 and 2). The BBC model is a bit like PBS in that it's commercial-free; to defray operating costs one must have a television license. ITV and others have since come along; while they support themselves via commercials you still must have a TV license since you're capable of receiving BBC. > And does > this only apply to boxes capable of receiving a broadcast signal, or > would my laptop with a DVD player fall under the rules... Only things capable of receiving "broadcast" signals require the license, which is available in various weird flavors for color and B&W, residential and commercial. Then there are the television detector vans (do they still use those?) that would prowl around looking for RF emissions from unlicensed receivers. I won't even go into cat detector vans... :-) > Clint (slightly mystified) You and me both. Best, Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 21 17:54:45 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <20000221161006.A3421@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Feb 21, 0 04:10:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 609 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000221/d42ec41f/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 21 18:05:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: HP9114B battery pack Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1435 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/3f7309e5/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 21 17:58:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: TV License in UK (was Re: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors?) In-Reply-To: from "Clint Wolff" at Feb 21, 0 03:33:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 803 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000221/38ce1d58/attachment-0001.ksh From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Tue Feb 22 19:29:48 2000 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Some h/w free for shipping and some s/w FS. Message-ID: <005e01bf7d9d$7a28e0a0$da81b7d1@kstumpf> Still trying to empty free-up space in my "ware"house. If you would like an HP-IB cable or the tilt/swivel base for the original IBM PC monitor, please send your mailing address to me in a private message. First come first served. I'll confirm things with you and tell you the shipping costs. Also have a complete copy of PC Tools Version 6 for US$8 plus shipping, and something called Software Carousel (1987) for US$5 plus shipping. Please send a private message to me if you are interested. Yours in good faith. Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile www.unusual.on.ca - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) Author & Publisher of The Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Feb 21 20:04:48 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: How many Vaxes? References: <38B18910.6828DD9B@ccc.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <00c501bf7cd9$33889600$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Kolb To: Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2000 5:20 Subject: Re: How many Vaxes? > On a semi-related note, what sort of Vaxen do people on this list Ok here goes. At home. 1 Microvax II with 6mb & 85mb HDD TK50 running VMS 5.5 1 Microvax 3400 TK50 with 20Mb RAM, DSSI, SCSI, Pertec controller, no drives yet. 1 Vax 6000-430 TK70 256mb SCSI,DSSI,CI & SDI/STI & 6 x RA90's running VMS 6.2/UCX/DECNET etc. 1 HSC50 & Star Coupler (not in use - the 6k has a KDB50) 1 x TA78 (PSU faulty) 1 TU78 (Slaved from the TA78) 2 x TA79 (working - sometimes used on the 6430) 3 VS3100's 8mb RZ23's. 1 currently running cut down NetBSD. 1 Decstation 3100 with 32mb & 500mb drive (non-dec) running (sorta) NetBSD. 1 Vax 6000-260 with 64mb (not running anything yet) couple of partly dismembered 6000 cabinets for spares etc. 1 6000-320 minus ram and most of the cards (they're all in the 430) and a faulty 5v supply. (To be fixed later) 1 Microvax 2000 in bits not going. (Might be ok when I put it together) 1 Decmate in bits not going. (Floppy Drives u/s it seems) 16 RA70's in 4 x SA70 enclosures. Sa550 Cabinet(s) 1 Vax 8530 20mb ram - with CIBCI cabinet & Pro380 console. (Would be going, but I lack the console to Vax cable) At work 1 Vax 6000-440 TK70 256mb 3 x RA72 5 x RA70 6 x RA92 served from HSC70. 1 SCSI cd on a CMD controller 1 x TU81+ Running VMS6.0, Vaxcluster, Multinet 3.2 Rev B, MX Mail 5.1, IUPOP3, WASD Web/Proxy Server, Madgoat FTP. 1 VS4000-90 32Mb RAM numerous SCSI drives & Sony CDROM. 2.88 mb FDD. VMS 6.2 & UCX + Vaxcluster. (The 4000-90 is actually mine, I just use it at work) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Feb 21 20:31:51 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: IBM 4381 Avbl in South Australia Message-ID: <00ea01bf7cdc$fad0cae0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Anyone able to tell me something about this type of system? It's about 300 miles north of me, and I'm considering submitting a tender for it. Some idea of it's value, probably as scrap (since that's who I'd probably be bidding against) would be good. FWIW, I personally feel it is historically significant in view of the job it did and worthy of preservation. The system is from the (now closed) Joint US/Australian Space Defense facility at Nurrungar, near Woomera. ('Way out in the desert of northern South Australia.) The entire place is up for sale by tender, houses, buildings, radomes, dishes, power & AC plant etc - plus the IBM Mainframe that did all the data processing. Quote: "The Data Reduction Centre used the IBM 4381 Computer System to process and record infrared data detected by satellite and transmitted by the Satellite Tracking Station (SRS). The raw Satellite data was relayed through a variety of computers and electronic equipment and finally to the DRC's IBM 4381 mainframe computers. The mainframe computers each had dual processors: a support processor and an instruction processor. The processors filtered out any spurious data by comparing the data against pre programmed event criteria. Data that were not needed were discardedwhile data that met certain criteria were formatted and sent to the SOC for further evaluation, this time by human beings." End quote. There are numerous pics of the the system at:- http://www.evansclarke.com.au/megatender/usaf_ibm_4381/index.htm If you click on one of the thumbnails it will show a large version of the pic with a next button to go through all of them. If you want to see the other stuff that's on offer take a look at :- http://www.evansclarke.com.au/megatender/index.html Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 21 13:42:22 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard References: Message-ID: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus> Hi Philip, > BTW : what *is* it about keyboards these days?.... >....none of the keyboards I try have the same hard feel. They >all feel wishy-washy.... They're made to be CHEAP and disposable these days. :-( My favourite keyboards of all are IBM made ones, they have a nice feel and "clicky" keys. In fact, the keyboard I use the most is a 1985 vintage, 84 key, AT keyboard (with the function keys arranged down the left hand end, where they should be). TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 21 19:20:24 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software References: <000601bf7269$f98c0960$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <034a01bf7cdc$eb548f20$0fea93c3@proteus> Hi Richard, > IIRC there's a free/demo package from IVEX that might do, though >I don't know whether it's time limited or not.... Thanks, do you have a web address for IVEX (I'll try the obvious of course)? > What I use for the bread-and-butter stuff myself is the classic >DOS-based OrCAD v3.22 which works, I find, much better than the >more recent GUI-based versions..... I can believe it, I remember downloading one of the very early (if not the first) versions of the GUI port back in my FidoNet days. ISTR I didn't get on with it and stuck with "Easy PC". > If you like the EAGLE stuff well enough, it's not terribly >expensive.... Yes, I do like Eagle quite a lot. The interface is sometimes a bit obscure, but I can cope with that....plus there's a Linux version too (wonder if they do a version for AIX?). The problem is, that even the "standard" version won't allow me to produce a board the size and shape I want to. Considering the cost of the "professional" version, and that I'm doing this purely as a hobby, buying the pro version is not really an option - hence my original enquiry. I can do most everything I want using my existing software, but I don't really want to keep a DOS (or windows) machine running when I switch to Linux. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 21 19:35:50 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: <"Peter Pachla"'s message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2000 02:25:18 -0000"><200001262244218.SM00188@kernst><3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net><048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> <3.0.1.16.20000207100119.3e47fa9a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <034c01bf7cdc$ee604880$0fea93c3@proteus> Hi Joe, > I have both. I like the little one better. The 120 takes up >too much room. The 125 is the same size as the HP 9816 (aka >9000 216.) Interesting, "9816" sounds familiar....are the edges of the unit rounded, if so it sounds like that's my mystery terminal. :-) Actually, are there any sites/collections on the 'net which cover HP equipment? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 21 16:56:59 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Test/Machines available References: Message-ID: <034801bf7cdc$e9ec73a0$0fea93c3@proteus> Hi Mike, >....Need anything bad enough to have it shipped? Possibly, I've been after a few of the plastic case parts for some time - they seem to be rarer than hen's teeth here (or I've been looking in the wrong places). I'll contact you privately off-list. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 21 18:55:30 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Schematic capture/PCB design software References: <001001bf7258$0bbeb7c0$52e993c3@proteus> <389F0AB4.B0FBC96F@rain.org> Message-ID: <034901bf7cdc$eaa51540$0fea93c3@proteus> Hi, > For small boards, I have a program called CAMDOS that seems to >work quite well.... Sounds interesting, but I really need something with an autorouter. Is "CAMDOS" to be found anywhere on the www, I wouldn't mind having a look at it? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 21 19:54:30 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: Message-ID: <034e01bf7cdc$efb79b20$0fea93c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > Oh, I am not disputing a combined RAM and HP-HIL board.... > > HPIL is _NOT_ HP-HIL. I see, my fault I've been typing "HP-IL" when I meant "HP-HIL" - for some reason I've always called "HP-HIL" "HP-IL"...? > Actually, it is. That 2Mbyte board is the 45890A (512K) + >enough of the 45891A kits....to completely fill it..... Ah, the FAQ didn't mention that. I assumed that you could only fit the one expansion kit to the board. Heck, now I come to think of it that's a pretty dumb assumption....a 768K RAM expansion...? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 21 19:46:37 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: <048101bf7119$3cf56720$91d993c3@proteus> <200002070425.UAA86423@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <034d01bf7cdc$eeee30a0$0fea93c3@proteus> Hi Frank, >....concluded that while the 150 wasn't that bad, touch screens >were not all that they were cracked up to be.... >....it resulted in a sort of fatigue that was called "gorilla >arm".... Quite, I can believe it. I recall messing around with a light pen on my Atari back around 1984, nice idea but my arm would soon start to ache if I used it a lot....so I gave up on it (but then this is the man who hates function keys above the keyboard as he can't operate them with the little finger of his left hand (lazy or what!?)). > Besides, who wants a bunch of fingertip-sized smudges on the >screen? Heh, heh. How did the touch screen operate then, infra red beams? ISTR that I once saw a touch screen (in fact probably the only one I've ever seen) which was some sort of transparent layer attached to the face of the CRT, it looked rather like an anti-glare covering. It was nice as you couldn't smudge it.... :-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 21 19:31:24 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: <200001262244218.SM00188@kernst> <3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net> <048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> <200002070511.VAA87749@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <034b01bf7cdc$ec272160$0fea93c3@proteus> Hi Frank, > Unfortunately I have no idea what kind of terminals HP sell >these days.... The terminals I'm thinking of would be reasonably old. For the life of me I can't recall HP's designation for them, other than it probably began with a "9" and had a suffix of "A". They had rounded edges, and like the HP-150 II allowed the tilt of the screen to be altered. You couldn't really stack anything on top of them since the top wasn't entirely flat - the frontmost couple of inches was angled up slightly. >....I don't think they ever made a 150 that looks like >those.... Maybe I'm thinking of the HP-120/5 then? I'm sure I've seen a photograph of an HP micro which looks almost identical to one of these terminals. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Feb 21 21:26:22 2000 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: IBM 4381 Avbl in South Australia References: <00ea01bf7cdc$fad0cae0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: <38B201DE.8896CFE7@halcyon.com> Looks to me like you would have to buy the 3.9 MWatt diesel powerplant to run the IBM 4381 setup. In fact, this whole place looks like it could be a great buy. You could make it into a "Classic Computer Resort", and fly people in for vacations or sabbaticals. (There must be an airfield that goes with it, too? Maybe even a few C-5As?) Maybe we could pool our resources and make a bid on the whole place? Dave Geoff Roberts wrote: > > Anyone able to tell me something about this type of system? It's about 300 > miles north of me, and I'm considering > submitting a tender for it. Some idea of it's value, probably as scrap > (since that's who I'd probably be bidding against) > would be good. FWIW, I personally feel it is historically significant in > view of the job it did and worthy of preservation. > > The system is from the (now closed) Joint US/Australian Space Defense > facility at Nurrungar, near Woomera. > ('Way out in the desert of northern South Australia.) > > The entire place is up for sale by tender, houses, buildings, radomes, > dishes, power & AC plant etc - plus the > IBM Mainframe that did all the data processing. > > Quote: > > "The Data Reduction Centre used the IBM 4381 Computer System to process and > record infrared data detected by satellite and transmitted by the Satellite > Tracking Station (SRS). The raw Satellite data was relayed through a variety > of computers and electronic equipment and finally to the DRC's IBM 4381 > mainframe computers. The mainframe computers each had dual processors: a > support processor and an instruction processor. The processors filtered out > any spurious data by comparing the data against pre programmed event > criteria. Data that were not needed were discardedwhile data that met > certain criteria were formatted and sent to the SOC for further evaluation, > this time by human beings." > > End quote. > > There are numerous pics of the the system at:- > http://www.evansclarke.com.au/megatender/usaf_ibm_4381/index.htm > > If you click on one of the thumbnails it will show a large version of the > pic with a next button to go through all of them. > > If you want to see the other stuff that's on offer take a look at :- > http://www.evansclarke.com.au/megatender/index.html > > Cheers > > Geoff Roberts > Computer Systems Manager > Saint Mark's College > Port Pirie, South Australia. > Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au > netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au > ICQ #: 1970476 From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon Feb 21 21:30:40 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus>; from Peter Pachla on Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:42:22PM -0000 References: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus> Message-ID: <20000221203040.J2874@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:42:22PM -0000, Peter Pachla wrote: > My favourite keyboards of all are IBM made ones, they have a nice feel and > "clicky" keys. In fact, the keyboard I use the most is a 1985 vintage, 84 > key, AT keyboard (with the function keys arranged down the left hand end, > where they should be). Me too but I like the function keys along the top. No point in having a preference that's so hard to find in modern keyboards; sometimes I get stuck using other types besides my IBM's (although I do have extras so I can use one at work and one at every extra computer around the house). Now that we are using Sun Ultra 5's at work though, it's really annoying in that the caps lock and control are reversed, and backspace is one row down where the backslash is on my IBM. Those choices make more sense from an ergonmics point of view but I wish I could be more consistent. Maybe have to see about getting Linux to swap them for me at home. There is an adapter for something like $70 that lets you hook up a PC keyboard to a Sun but that's kindof spendy. Makes me wonder if one couldn't program up a PIC to be a universal keyboard adapter - XT, AT, Sun and ADB. (and a few others people will think of a need for, I'm sure...at least 3 of the above use TTL signalling, but I'm not sure about ADB) The modern Sun keyboards are also too mushy. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From dburrows at netpath.net Mon Feb 21 21:25:06 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: T.D. Systems TDL-12 Message-ID: <03fb01bf7ce4$c8b81c40$a652e780@L166> Yes it is SCSI. I have a little info I will try to dig up for you. They will do MSCP and a few other emulation's. (RL also IIRC) It all depends on the PAL that is installed. Look for what is stamped on the PAL. Dan -----Original Message----- From: jeff.kaneko@juno.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 2:36 PM Subject: T.D. Systems TDL-12 > >Guys: > >Anybody know what this is? I'm almost certain it is a >Q-BUS SCSI adaptor, but is it for disk, tape, or ??? > >Is is MSCP? Does it emulate RK-0x's, or what? > > > >Thanks! > > >Jeff >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Feb 21 21:34:01 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard Message-ID: <200002220334.WAA03089@world.std.com> =:The VT100 keyboard mechanism was used on all sorts of machines (or =: =:VT100 =:Some HP terminals =:TRS-80 Model 1 (older version keyboard) =:Zenith/Heathkit Z19/H88/H89/Z90 =:TI 99/4a (I think) Yes on the TI99/4a Also kaypro, some not all I have two different keyboards. NS* advantage Haziltine 1500 and 1400 series. and like you said a who raft of others. Allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Feb 21 21:49:02 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Amiga and BSD o/s Message-ID: <20000222034902.26409.qmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Hello, all you guys out there > > I'm wanting to try out one (or both) of Open BSD and NetBSD on my lil' ol' > Amiga -- I really need someone who has gone through the teething process of > formatting drives and instaling necessary files, etc. I haven't installed either on an Amiga myself, but I would recommend Open BSD (http://www.openbsd.org/amiga.html) for one important reason: drivers for my card, the GG2 Bus+ Zorro-to-ISA bridge, are included! Completely self- serving, I know, but there it is. For the curious Amiga owner, the GG2 Bus+ web page is at http://penguincentral.com/GG2/ -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Mon Feb 21 22:08:41 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: How many Vaxes? Message-ID: <20000222040841.17216.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dan Kolb > To: > Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2000 5:20 > Subject: Re: How many Vaxes? > > > On a semi-related note, what sort of Vaxen do people on this list My list of personal VAXen: 1 MicroVAX-II in BA-123 w/9MB & RD54 (154MB), TQK50 and TU80 (Dilog controller), SRC COMBOARD-Q, DZV-11, uninstalled KDA50, running VMS 6.1 1 MicroVAX-II in BA-23 w/9MB & RD54, KDA50, DZV-11 and DEQNA, running VMS 5.5 1 MicroVAX-I in BA-23 w/4Mb & RD52, DZV-11 running MicroVMS 4.2 1 MicroVAX-I parts machine 1 VAX 8300 w/16Mb & RA81 (450Mb), 3rd party SDI-to-ESDI bridge w/two 1.2GB ESDI disks, KDB50, unresponsive DEBNT (cable problems?) running VMS 5.5 1 MicroVAX 2000 w/10Mb? & RD54, DHT32 8-port expander, TK50Z-FA 1 MicroVAX 2000 untested w/external RD54 box 3 VAXstation 2000 untested w/mice, keyboards, mono monitors. 1 VAX-11/750 w/8Mb & RA81 w/DMF-32, Massbus interface (TU78 is 220V and was not moved with CPU), SI9900 disk interface w/Fuji 160Mb+Eagle disks, multiple Emulex 16-port serial cards, UDA-50, 56K DEC sync card for DDCMP, RUX50 interface, TU80 interface, LP11 interface, s/n BT000354, running VMS 4.5 1 VAX-11/750 w/14Mb, multiple DZ-11, TS-11 controller, Massbus controller, SI 9900 controller, Fuji Eagles and RM03s not moved with CPU due to transportation problems. 1 VAX-11/730 w/5Mb & RB80 (121Mb), DMF-32, VMS 5.4 With all of that, only one MicroVAX-II, one MicroVAX 2000 and the VAX 8300 have been powered on in the past year. The Unibus VAXen are in deep storage. On the way is a VAXstation 3100-90 w/64MB and 1.5GB disk, TLZ30 and TK50Z-GA, but no ETA as of yet. :-( -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From marvin at rain.org Sun Feb 20 22:54:05 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Simon Construction References: <20000222040841.17216.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38B0C4ED.C6513E79@rain.org> Just curious how many, if any, people are planning on building the Simon relay computer. It seems like a rather interesting project and I am starting to collect the parts. It should be a neat project for the next VCF! From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Feb 21 23:19:16 2000 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: IBM 4381 Avbl in South Australia References: <00ea01bf7cdc$fad0cae0$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> <38B201DE.8896CFE7@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <012e01bf7cf4$5dcddc20$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: David C. Jenner To: Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2000 1:56 Subject: Re: IBM 4381 Avbl in South Australia > Looks to me like you would have to buy the 3.9 MWatt diesel powerplant > to run the IBM 4381 setup. ROFL. Very likely. The power plant also ran the HUGE airconditioning systems, not just for the computers, but the radomes and other buildings as well. I have no idea how much power the computers would have drawn, but I would imagine it was considerable. To run it elsewhere would require it to be downsized somewhat I would imagine. > In fact, this whole place looks like it could be a great buy. You could > make it into a "Classic Computer Resort", and fly people in for vacations > or sabbaticals. Well, the real estate would probably be cheap, but I think it's still part of the Woomera Restricted Area. Crown land. As for the rest? Interesting concept, but there's not a lot there except desert and the old rocket range. (Which is supposed to be being taken over to launch commercial satellites in conjunction with the Russians(?)) The communal canteen/restaurant at Woomera is still called the ELDO Mess. (European Launcher Development Organisation) 45C+ in summer, -5C overnight in Winter. < 5" rain per annum. Most of that in summer thunderstorms, plus tropical rain depressions from collapsed cyclones in the NW of Australia that drift down south far enough. (Happening now, actually) Relative humidity usually around 1%. Hang your washing on the line, by the time you've finished, it's ready to bring in. Bone dry & rock hard. (Well, it's the dryest state of the dryest continent on Earth after all) I used to live in Leigh Creek (open cut brown coal mine for the power stations at Port Augusta 250 miles south) about 85 miles due east of Woomera on the other side of Lake Torrens. (Salt pan - only a lake every few years) > (There must be an airfield that goes with it, too? Yes. Big sealed runway/apron. > Maybe even a few C-5As?) Unfortunately, no. (some TALU acft loading gear was in the tender stuff, though it has now been withdrawn from sale) It WAS served by USAF C141 Starlifters. I used to work them on VHF when I was at Leigh Creek FS. (it was our airspace, there is a tower at Woomera but it is only manned if the RAAF have an exercise on there. (About as often as total eclipses.) Airspace belongs to Adelaide now, since Leigh Creek FS closed down.) MAC & a 5 digit number were the callsigns. I remember they had a pavement dispensation to land at Woomera before they beefed up the pavement a bit. Long strip anyway. The govt stashed it's ex-RAAF Mirage III's there in mothballs before they sold them to Pakistan. (Same climate as Davis-Monthan) > Maybe we could pool our resources and make a bid on the whole place? It'd be interesting to see what sells for how much. Mining companies will snap up the power plant and much of the buildings I'd say. Doubtful about the chiller plant, though it would be capable of doing an entire small town if you wanted to. (Gove in the NT is like that - central airconditioning for the whole town - piped through to your house for a monthly fee - works well.) (Western Mining Corporation has a VERY big Uranium mine about 90 miles north at a place called Roxby Downs (originally Olympic Dam). Big town now. The rest may be hard to unload, partly because of WHERE it is. The market for gigantic Radomes and in outback Australia would seem to be rather small, but you never know. The houses should go pretty well, the ones from Leigh Creek got sold and trucked down south. Cost a bit, but since the houses went for around $15-20k each, add about $3-5k for the move and you saved about $20k on the price of a new one on your site. These will probably go for much the same price I imagine. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Feb 21 23:26:26 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Simon Construction In-Reply-To: <38B0C4ED.C6513E79@rain.org> Message-ID: Marvin: If you have any Sense of Adventure, you might consider using electrical distribution substation switchgear for the logic. It would take up a little more space (maybe two acres) and use more power, but... think of the kewl noise it would make! The control panel would be interesting, too.. if you continued the genre of the 'active logic'. Cheers C. P. Steinmetz From nerdware at laidbak.com Mon Feb 21 23:39:57 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <20000221203040.J2874@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> References: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus>; from Peter Pachla on Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:42:22PM -0000 Message-ID: <200002220540.XAA08286@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:30:40 -0700 From: "Shawn T. Rutledge" To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > On Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:42:22PM -0000, Peter Pachla wrote: > > My favourite keyboards of all are IBM made ones, they have a nice feel > > and "clicky" keys. In fact, the keyboard I use the most is a 1985 > > vintage, 84 key, AT keyboard (with the function keys arranged down the > > left hand end, where they should be). > > Me too but I like the function keys along the top. No point in having a > preference that's so hard to find in modern keyboards; sometimes I get > stuck using other types besides my IBM's (although I do have extras so I > can use one at work and one at every extra computer around the house). > I agree on the IBM keyboards. I'm a Mac guy, but I also use wintel boxen and nothing feels like a good, solid, cast-metal-frame IBM keyboard. I've gotten used to Evilsoft Naturals, but really wish they'd use the same keyswitch mechanism that IBM used instead of the rubber dome thingy. I did CAD for 5 years, and the older program we used before AutoCAD had most of the major editing functions mapped to fn keys. My keyboard had them arranged on the left, and I became very proficient that way. My left hand knew what functions I needed without even looking, and I could invoke most drawing commands from the command line. Took me quite a while to untrain my hand when we switched to AutoCAD and I couldn't replilcate the mappings. Right now, I'm using a good ol' IBM clicker as a remote control for my Sony Minidisc deck here in my little studio. Sony put a PS/2 plug on the front for titling and remote control functions, evidently after the realization that most guys hacked their own plug in anyway..... And for laptops, my vote is for ThinkPads. The keyboard on the NEC Versa 4230 I used to used was probably the worst one ever made. Almost made typing on an Atari 400 fun......my ThinkPad 760xl has a crisp, clean, postive feel to it. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From nerdware at laidbak.com Mon Feb 21 23:44:08 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200002220544.XAA08315@garcon.laidbak.com> Date sent: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:17:16 -0800 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard Send reply to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > The other real popular Apple keyboard seems to be the 'adjustable' one. > I've got to admit to being rather partial to the old tiny ADB keyboard for > the Apple //gs, although since I got one, it's never been on a //gs :^) > Works great for Mac's though! > > Zane Amen! Mine is plugged into my PM 9500 right now, and I love the feel. Plus, it's just so darn cute.... :o) Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Feb 21 23:59:27 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: HP9114B battery pack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000222005927.00f30300@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> At 12:05 AM 02/22/2000 +0000, you wrote: >I've got a (non-working) HP9114B HPIL disk drive on the bench at the >moment. The first few problems seem to be related to the battery pack. >HP consider this to be a non-serviceable item, so there's no informtion >available. Needless to say I disagree, and intend to repair it. Good. >Firstly the battery itself. The original one is missing, but I think it's >some kind of sealed lead acid unit, 6V at about 2.5Ah. The largest >'Dryfit' that I can get that will fit in the housing is the 1.2Ah one. I >guess this will work but will give me short battery life. The original packs carried the Panasonic LCR-226P, 6V, 2.4AH, which are not produced anymore. However, the LCR-062R4PU has the same form factor and capacity, and can still be obtained. I bought several at Digikey a couple of years ago. The only difference is in the location and orientation of the terminals, but bending them a little is enough for the battery to fit in the pack. By the way, I also used some of these to replace the larger 3.2AH cells in my HP3421's. Unfortunately, I could not find any modern battery with the same form factor of the original LCR-306P. >However, it appears that 3 off 2.5Ah Cyclon cells would fit in the >housing. Has this ever been tried, and does the HP charger PCB charge >these correctly without damage? The 1.5 V difference is big enough that the charger may actually damage them. Low duty lead-acid batteries are supposed to be charged using constant voltage (with initial current limiting, one amp for the ones in question). For standby use the charging voltage for these is 6.9V; for cycle use the charging voltage is 7.3V . Both are way too high for a 4.5V nominal pack. And I think that 4.5V is probably too low for the hp9114. I have two HP9114's, an "A" version and a "B" version. The charge circuits are different. The pack in the "A" version is nothing more than a series NPN/Zenner base voltage reference plus a fuse in series with the 9114A. The one in the 9114B does have the LM311, a 79L05, a 2N3906 and a 6102N/6240 marked "Q2", plus a couple zenners, an 1N4004 and other resistors/caps. Q2 could also be an SCR (not the first time one would have shown up in a charger).... in fact, I have just taken some readings and it definitely is not a bipolar transistor. It's looking more like an SCR. The gate would be the pin farthest from the board edge. And this charger is functional. Sorry, I don't know what a proper replacement would be, but I think that your Q2 might actually be good (it's hard to blow up an SCR with a source that has an internal impedance as high as that in a 82059 xformer). >Secondly, I have a fault on the charger PCB. This is a fairly simple >circuit (based round an LM311 comparator) to rapidly charge the battery >when it's flat and thento fall back to a trickle charge when the battery >voltage rises. > >The switchover seems to be controlled by a 3 terminal component indicated >as 'Q2' on the PCB. The markings on the device are : > >6142N >M (Motorola logo) >6240 > >I assume it's an NPN power transistor, in which case it's defective as >the collector-base junction is open. But I can't find 2N6240 or 2N6142 in >_any_ databook or catalogue here (assuming that's what it really is). > >Does anyone know what this component is, and does anyone know a suitable >replacement? > >-tony From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Feb 22 00:10:52 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: T.D. Systems TDL-12 Message-ID: <20000222.001327.204.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> The one removable PAL says TDL-13 . . . On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:25:06 -0500 "Daniel T. Burrows" writes: >Yes it is SCSI. I have a little info I will try to dig up for you. >They >will do MSCP and a few other emulation's. (RL also IIRC) It all >depends on >the PAL that is installed. Look for what is stamped on the PAL. >Dan >-----Original Message----- >From: jeff.kaneko@juno.com >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Date: Monday, February 21, 2000 2:36 PM >Subject: T.D. Systems TDL-12 > > >> >>Guys: >> >>Anybody know what this is? I'm almost certain it is a >>Q-BUS SCSI adaptor, but is it for disk, tape, or ??? >> >>Is is MSCP? Does it emulate RK-0x's, or what? ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From dastar at siconic.com Tue Feb 22 02:46:07 2000 From: dastar at siconic.com (DASTAR COM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: VCF 1.0e - VCF Europa in Munich, Germany! Message-ID: I'm very proud to announce the first version of the Vintage Computer Festival in Europe! VCF 1.0e is scheduled for April 29-30 in Munich, Germany. Our beloved Hans Franke is the primary organizer of the event. I will be attending the event as well so I look forward to (hopefully) meeting a lot of you European computer collectors. The initial web site for VCF 1.0e is up but is currently only implemented in German. Complain to Hans. http://www.vintage.org/europa I hope Hans will find the time in his busy schedule to translate the site to about 7 other languages, but maybe someone can help him out. I think you silly Europeans should just adopt English already but I guess that's a flame war waiting to explode so I won't say anything (ooops :) Please send all flames and offers of assistance to Hans Franke at . Unfortunately I know little about the event with regards to location, admission, etc. Hans has been doing all of the organization and we haven't been coordinating very well. All that information is on the website but I can't read much German yet unfortunately. My end of the bargain is to learn German fluently enough to give a 45 minute talk at the event. So at some point I should be able to read the pages. For now I remain an Ugly American. Oh well. I hope to see you there! It will be a BLAST! Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From kheydon at Solidworks.com Tue Feb 22 03:30:20 2000 From: kheydon at Solidworks.com (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Wang 2200SVP Available in the UK. Message-ID: <5936ED1A3F41D311BDC60090278874660C76EB@MSX102> If anybody is interested in this then contact Robert directly... > From: rib@cannon-co.freeserve.co.uk> > > I have an ancient system dating from circa 1980. It uses the old 8" > floppy disks. it is quite heavy and bulky but would fit into an estate > car. It is probably now quite rare but I want to get rid of it (free > of charge) to anyone who is prepared to pick it from my address in > Kent. The monitor has packed up but the disk drive/ CPU is working. > I shall dump it unless you know of anyone who might have it. > > Robert Cannon -- Kevan From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Feb 22 05:06:09 2000 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: IBM 3363 optical drive Technical Reference Manual wanted Message-ID: <8025688D.003CE9F7.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > As the subject says, I would like to get hold of a Technical Reference Manual > for the IBM 3363 WORM drive. > > Any ideas where I might find one? (And an ISA adapter card for the 3363 too.) I thought I had this manual, but alas, no luck. What I have is the Guide to Operations. A pretty lusing manual, all told, but there is some useful info to be gleaned, like the switch settings for the ISA card. (I don't have the card - sorry). The manual also comes with about half a dozen disks of drivers and software - I think it's Drivers for ISA on 5.25 in; drivers for ISA on 3.5 in; and drivers for microchannel on 3.5in - two disks each or thereabouts. Details of the utility programs can be found in the manual. I haven't read it in detail, so I don't know how good an API you get with this. If you want this, shipping to USA is between 8 and 9 dollars (haven't got an exact figure - I just shoved the manual and one Jiffy bag on the scales in the post room), so I'll send it for $10 US. If you are not as far away from the UK as that, or want me to send it without the binder (a shame, since this is original and in good condition), the price can come down. Please e-mail me privately if you want this, and we can exchange addresses, etc. Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From Jgzabol at aol.com Tue Feb 22 05:28:51 2000 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: VCF 1.0e - VCF Europa in Munich, Germany! Message-ID: For those of you who might be planning a more extended trip to Germany: There is also an International Conference on the History of Computing Heinz Nixdorf Museums-Forum, Paderborn, Germany April 5-7 http://www.hnf.de/ICHC2000/ which will focus on Mapping the History of Computing: Software Issues We surely could also provide a list of other interesting classiccmp-style places to visit, if there were any interest ... just to keep anyone busy during April. John G. Zabolitzky Munich, Germany From cem14 at cornell.edu Tue Feb 22 06:37:09 2000 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: HP9114B battery pack In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000222005927.00f30300@postoffice3.mail.cornell. edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20000222073709.0078f944@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> I know, bad form to reply to my own post, but I just discovered that my brain was fried last night :-) At 12:59 AM 02/22/2000 -0500, you wrote: >>However, it appears that 3 off 2.5Ah Cyclon cells would fit in the >>housing. Has this ever been tried, and does the HP charger PCB charge >>these correctly without damage? > >The 1.5 V difference is big enough that the charger may actually >damage them. Low duty lead-acid batteries are supposed >to be charged using constant voltage (with initial current limiting, >one amp for the ones in question). For standby use the charging >voltage for these is 6.9V; for cycle use the charging voltage >is 7.3V . Both are way too high for a 4.5V nominal pack. And >I think that 4.5V is probably too low for the hp9114. It should work -- 3 cyclon cells = 6V, the required nominal voltage. But I would still try to get the LCR062R4PU's. Carlos. From Mzthompson at aol.com Tue Feb 22 07:24:19 2000 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Sams Photofacts (Was: Re: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors?) Message-ID: <5f.1bc676d.25e3e803@aol.com> John Wilson wrote: > BTW, do Sams Photofacts still exist, and if so can they be ordered on-line? > Our old VCR has been getting picky about what channels it will and won't > receive, but I'm probably too dense to repair a tuner even *with* schematics, > let alone without. But the only real electronics shop in the area can't get > Photofacts any more... I honestly don't know it they do exist anymore, haven't had a need in years. The last time I saw a current Photofact, it was nothing more than a reprint of the manufacturer's material. It was not the Photofacts of old so I just sort of forgot about them. I think I bought my last one aroung 1976. It so happens that my first electronics job was with Sams PhotoFacts. That was about 30 years ago. At that time they actually acquired one of each model and tore it down to produce the photos and schematics. My job consisted of unpacking the TV, then setting it up with a mess of sensors attached to critical components to measure various parameters. I also disassembled the TV and wrote the disassembly instructions, did the chassis overview drawing, and chassis overview photos calling out the major controls and components. After that the cabinet and CRT were stored and the chassis sent down the 'line' for schematics to be drawn and parts lists produced. That process took 6-8 weeks. The fun part was after that, the set had to be reassembled and restored to working order. During the time on the line, the chassis would be handled by dozens, dropped, kicked, spilled on, and who knows what else. It was a nightmare sometimes to get a set working again, but I learned a lot. Fortunately, it was not my job to reassemble all of them, just something we all did when lacking for something to do or in need of a change. Some of the perks were nice, like a free subscription to Photofact of the Month. The was a file room where 50 or so copies of each individual Photofact were archived. You were free to go there and pull anything you needed. If it was not there, then tell the secretary and she would order it from other archives. One time I needed a Photofact for what at the time was considered an antique radio. I told the secretary and the next day she brought the complete folder, #47 as I recall. I have long since forgot the original issue date on that one. The other neat thing was the quarterly employee book sale. Needless to say, I have my share of Sams books, the paperbacks all bought for a quarter each. It pained me in later years to have to pay full price. I remember even back then that they were cutting back there 'coverage' of things like clock radios and the less expensive TV's. I guess you can call it the dawn of the age of 'discarding'. So I have to wonder what kind of coverage they provided for VCR's. Forgive me, John (et al), for not really answering your question. I had not even though about Sams in years and your posting prompted me to share. Excuse the rambling about old times. Mike From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 22 07:50:42 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: HP 9816 Re: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <034c01bf7cdc$ee604880$0fea93c3@proteus> References: <"Peter Pachla"'s message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2000 02:25:18 -0000"> <200001262244218.SM00188@kernst> <3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net> <048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus> <3.0.1.16.20000207100119.3e47fa9a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000222085042.3c0f02b0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:35 AM 2/22/00 -0000, you wrote: >Hi Joe, > > > I have both. I like the little one better. The 120 takes up > >too much room. The 125 is the same size as the HP 9816 (aka > >9000 216.) > >Interesting, "9816" sounds familiar....are the edges of the unit rounded, if >so it sounds like that's my mystery terminal. :-) Take a look at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/hp9816.jpg". That's a 9816 sitting on top of a HP 9121 or 9122 disk drive. The HP 125 looks exactly the same. The keyboard shown in the picture is the original one for the 9816. From what I've seen, most people paid extra and got the larger "Nimetz" keyboard. The original keyboards are sort of hard to come by. > >Actually, are there any sites/collections on the 'net which cover HP >equipment? I have some info at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/hpdcalc.htm". Joe > > > TTFN - Pete. > >-- >Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. >Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) > >peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk >-- > > > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Feb 22 08:32:37 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: VCF 1.0e - VCF Europa in Munich, Germany! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002221334.OAA26005@mail2.siemens.de> > For those of you who might be planning a more extended trip to Germany: > There is also an > International Conference on the History of Computing > Heinz Nixdorf Museums-Forum, Paderborn, Germany > April 5-7 > http://www.hnf.de/ICHC2000/ > which will focus on > Mapping the History of Computing: Software Issues Thank you John, I'll just put it up onto the VCFe pages > We surely could also provide a list of other interesting classiccmp-style > places to visit, if there were any interest ... just to keep anyone busy > during April. Well, at least of that ... And I have to thank Sallam for puting up the pages. Just, due some trans atlantic turbulences the updated pages (including the first English page - I hate when pages get published - people start to ask more questions ... Life could be so beautiful if we could ignore the user :) are at the moment at http://www.homecomputer.de/VCfe (Also a thank you to Stefan Walgenbach for puting up the mirror) More to come Hans -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 22 07:45:42 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Simon Construction In-Reply-To: <38B0C4ED.C6513E79@rain.org> Message-ID: I don't know if I'd build it but I'm curious to see the design though. Allison On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Marvin wrote: > > Just curious how many, if any, people are planning on building the Simon > relay computer. It seems like a rather interesting project and I am starting > to collect the parts. It should be a neat project for the next VCF! > From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Feb 22 08:27:38 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? References: Message-ID: <001e01bf7d42$8ddf5300$59eb93c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > In my experience, VT3xx terminals are known for eating flyback > transformers.... Good oh, that fills me with confidence - I just picked up another VT3xx (a 340) along with another MicroVAX II at the weekend. BTW I have a VT330 (or possibly a 320) which won't power up properly. When I power it up I hear a click from the sounder in the keyboard and the PSU shuts down, the it tried to power up again, clicks, powers down, etc etc.... Have you ever come across such a problem before? > I'd start by cleaning the screen. Yes, you can laugh, but it caught >me once, on a VT100.... Ditto, same thing caught me out a couple of times in the past. It's ALWAYS worth giving the screen a clean in these circumstances. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Feb 22 08:37:03 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: Message-ID: <001f01bf7d42$8f382c40$59eb93c3@proteus> Hi Tony, > To be exact, I've seen _one_ HP150-II with the touchscreen >-- mine.... Heh, to be honest I've only seen around 5 of the things myself....not exactly a large sample. :-) >....The touchscreen is built into the CRT bezel, so you'd >have to have the plain bezel to replace it if you removed >the touchscreen. Ah, I wasn't aware of that. I'd assumed it clipped on over the existing bezel in some manner, hence making it easily removable. > The hard disk is a GPIB unit, like the floppy drives. There are >various models that will work.... >....FWIW, I have 2 9133s and a 9154 on my 150-II. Oh, and a couple >of 9142 QIC tape drives. I'll have to keep my eyes open now rally season is starting again. I used to see a lot of HP drive boxes on sale at them, during the last few years the supply seems to have dried up somewhat....always the way, you see lots, but when you actually want one.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue Feb 22 09:01:11 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: How many Vaxes? References: <20000222040841.17216.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38B2A4B7.48B50266@arrl.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Dan Kolb > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2000 5:20 > > Subject: Re: How many Vaxes? > > > > > On a semi-related note, what sort of Vaxen do people on this list At Work: (3) VAX 11/785's. One running a MD80 simulator, 2 are spares. My modest home collection: MicroVaxII, BA123. Trying to accumulate necessary parts for installation of RA73s. MicroVaxIII+, KA655 , BA213. Was a DECsystem5500 box, DSSI equipped; this is my never-ending-project. MicroVax3100/10 VAXstation 3100/m38 VAXstation 3100/m76 VAXstation 4000/VLC VAXstation 4000/60 All are/will be VMS machines, though would like to get some flavor of UNIX on one of these. My VAX population will soon take a drastic decrease as I just don't have the time to devote to hobby. With change of season, time-on-hobby will decrease further as time-on-tractor increases. Cheers, Nick From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 09:36:01 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: How many Vaxes? Message-ID: <20000222153601.19151.qmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Nick Oliviero wrote: > My modest home collection: > MicroVaxII, BA123. Trying to accumulate necessary parts for installation > of RA73s. Last summer I receieved a wad of SDI parts including at least one KDA-50, two RA70s and a front panel for the drives. I'm hoping to somehow stuff them into my BA123 for the uVAX-II. I plan to use this machine to begin to process my wad of 9-track tapes (at least the 1600bpi ones - I do not own a 6250 bpi drive) > My VAX population will soon take a drastic decrease as I just don't > have the time to devote to hobby. With change of season, time-on-hobby > will decrease further as time-on-tractor increases. I heard that. I have a 1949 Ford 8N, myself. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From dburrows at netpath.net Tue Feb 22 10:22:01 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: T.D. Systems TDL-12 Message-ID: <055201bf7d51$0b898c90$a652e780@L166> Good - That is the only one I have info on that is handy. Both jumpers out (A&B) it will respond at CSR174420 vec164 The alternate add is CSR 174400 CSR 160 with Jumper A installed. I have had one for some time but have not taken the time to play with it. It is SCSI but it responds at an RL add. Dan >The one removable PAL says TDL-13 . . . > >On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:25:06 -0500 "Daniel T. Burrows" > writes: >>Yes it is SCSI. I have a little info I will try to dig up for you. >>They >>will do MSCP and a few other emulation's. (RL also IIRC) It all >>depends on >>the PAL that is installed. Look for what is stamped on the PAL. >>Dan From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Feb 22 11:23:26 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: T.D. Systems TDL-12 Message-ID: <20000222.112326.-292011.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:22:01 -0500 "Daniel T. Burrows" writes: > Good - That is the only one I have info on that is handy. Both > jumpers out (A&B) it will respond at CSR174420 vec164 The alternate add is CSR > 174400 CSR 160 with Jumper A installed. > I have had one for some time but have not taken the time to play with it. > It is SCSI but it responds at an RL add. Okay, so it emulates an RL-0x drive then. If you wanted to use an entire SCSI device as a single volume, though, you'd need a special driver for O/S you're using, right? Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From kla at helios.augustana.edu Tue Feb 22 11:48:22 2000 From: kla at helios.augustana.edu (Kevin L. Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Keyboards / Simon relay computer? Message-ID: A quick statement and a question: (1) I seem to recall that the keyboard used on the original Kaypro luggable computer was labeled as the "IBM Selectric" keyboard. I had been a user of the IBM Selectric typewriter at the time of using my first Kaypro computer, and recall the look and feel to be identical (or at least similar enough) in the key shapes and layout. When you folks mention the VT100 keyboard, you are talking about a different animal, right? (Also a nice keyboard....) (2) Would someone please repost the URL for the Simon relay computer. Thanks. Cheers. Kevin Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent the administration of Augustana College. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Feb 22 17:22:20 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Sams Photofacts Message-ID: I have noticed that the earlier Sams are available now on CD-ROM. Don't remember if they are direct from Howard Sams or through third-party. I'm lucky, as there are complete libraries of Photofacts available at both the downtown KC library and in Independence. Even had them in Tacoma, WA so check your local library for availability. Might be able to get them through interlibrary loan. Gary Hildebrand Amigaphile and boatanchor collector From elvey at hal.com Tue Feb 22 12:44:32 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:49 2005 Subject: Sams Photofacts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002221844.KAA18191@civic.hal.com> Gary Hildebrand wrote: > I have noticed that the earlier Sams are available now on CD-ROM. Don't > remember if they are direct from Howard Sams or through third-party. > > I'm lucky, as there are complete libraries of Photofacts available at both > the downtown KC library and in Independence. Even had them in Tacoma, WA so > check your local library for availability. Might be able to get them > through interlibrary loan. > > Gary Hildebrand > Amigaphile and boatanchor collector Hi Sam's are still there: http://www.hwsams.com/tech_prod_div.html Dwight From Innfogra at aol.com Tue Feb 22 12:59:09 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Simon Construction Message-ID: In a message dated 2/21/2000 9:33:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, jpl15@netcom.com writes: > If you have any Sense of Adventure, you might consider using > electrical distribution substation switchgear for the logic. It > would take up a little more space (maybe two acres) and use more > power, but... think of the kewl noise it would make! > My scrapper has been buying all of the electrical scrap from BPA (Bonneville Power Administration) in Vancouver, Washington for the last 10 years. If someone wanted to use electrical distribution substation switchgear for the logic it could be possible. He is shipping a container of it this week. Any interest? Paxton From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Feb 22 13:04:09 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Information still needed for Infotron IF/65 Development System II for 65XX microprocessors and CUBIT EPROM Programming board - AIM-65 or KIM ? Message-ID: <002201bf7d67$996b1ae0$89e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Hello to all, I'm still looking for information for these items: Firstly, an Infotron IF/65 Development System II. It appears to connect via RS-232 to a dumb terminal for its output of such things as address and data, and perhaps input of some parameters such as uP clock rate; baud rate is selectable from a thumbwheel. This system also appears to have the capability of single stepping the program contained in the device in the ZIF. It has a 28 pin ZIF socket for the targets EPROM/PROM/ROM. There is a standard ribbon cable that connects to a pod, and the pod has a braided ribbon cable that terminates at a 40 pin dip header, most likely to attach to the target in place of the uP. Trap conditions are selectable via four 0 to F thumbwheels, and conditions to be triggered on can be selected as memory data read, memory data written, and/or op-code. Any information would be greatly appreciated, a source of a manual or instructions for use would be fantastic. This equipment can be viewed at http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/Pics/infotron.gif and secondly: A CUBIT EPROM programming board for the AIM-65. It is not an RM65 board, the connector will plug right onto the expansion connector on an AIM, but can also be attached with an appropriate 1-to-1 ribbon cable. Here is the description: Measures 4-7/16 (4.4375)inches wide by 6-1/2 (6.5) inches long, including edge connector, lengthwise insertion. 44 pin gold plated edge connector with a 44 pin socket mounted immediately behind and parallel to the edge connector, on the component side of the PCB. 24 pin ZIF connector in the upper LH corner, viewing with the edge connector facing me (all descriptions below assume this position). 10 position DIP switch immediately to the right of the ZIF socket (no labeling), and another 10 position dip switch about halfway up the RHS, labeled 1 to 7 and B, C, D (probably address selection since one row of pins is all tied common and most of the pins on the other side of it go to a 74LS154). One LED, immediately to the right of the first 10 position DIP switch mentioned above, at the edge of the board. Two trimpots about center of the far edge of the board, to the right of the LED. Two jumper blocks, one with 2 pins, labeled W1, and one with 3 pins, labeled RO and RA. Two Toshiba 24 pin TMM2016P-1 RAMs left of center in second row of DIPs on the board. One 2516-45 EPROM to the left of the RAMS, with a label on top "6517A". On the solder side the only markings (in etch) are CUBIT INC, 1981 and the numbers 10362 and 6583. Most of the date codes on the ICs are between 8037 and 8203. There is no other model number, manufacturer, or other ID marking on this board. This programmer can be viewed at http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/Pics/cubit.jpg Thanks, Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Feb 22 10:55:05 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard References: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus>; from Peter Pachla on Mon, Feb 21, 2000 at 07:42:22PM -0000 <200002220540.XAA08286@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <018a01bf7d69$4b358520$59eb93c3@proteus> Hi Paul, >....I'm a Mac guy, but I also use wintel boxen and nothing feels >like a good, solid, cast-metal-frame IBM keyboard.... Actually, now you mention it, I really liked the old keyboards which Apple shipped with the Mac Plus and earlier. The only criticism I'd level at them would be that they don't "click" and the key travel is a bit long. But nice nevertheless. And one of the worst keyboards I've ever used is the standard ADB keyboard I got with my "Classic II". "Yuck" just doesn't cover it....I can see why people quickly switched to the extended keyboards. >....My left hand knew what functions I needed without even >looking.... Absolutely, I can operate the function keys on my 84 key keyboard with my left hand without even thinking about it. With them arranged along the top I have to make a concious decision to use the apt key, and then take my hand off the main part of the keyboard to operate the keys....which REALLY disturbs my rhythm when I'm using the machine. I also dislike IBM's (and most other manufacturer's) practice of putting the "Caps Lock" key where "Ctrl" belongs on these keyboards - personally, I can live without "Caps Lock" at all thankyou. Not to mention their insistance on putting "Esc" on the same row as the "F" keys, sigh, "Esc" lives next to the "1" key or, at worst, in the top left corner of the numeric keypad.... :-( Not that I'm fussy or anything. ;-) > And for laptops, my vote is for ThinkPads.... I've not used very many laptop keyboards. I do like the keyboard on my Toshiba T3100SX (for which I need a working power controller PCB) and the one on the Tandy 1400LT I used to own was "OK". >....The keyboard on the NEC Versa 4230 I used to used was >probably the worst one ever made.... My vote would go for the keyboard on my Olivetti M15....foul, the only good thing about it is that you can take it out of the main unit and position it where/how you like. >....Almost made typing on an Atari 400 fun.... Yes, less than a month after I got it my Atari 400 was sporting an "InHome" replacement keyboard....and it still works fine today (despite having coffee spilt in it some 14 years ago). TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Feb 22 11:25:03 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: HP 9816 Re: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: <"Peter Pachla"'s message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2000 02:25:18 -0000"><200001262244218.SM00188@kernst><3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net><048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus><3.0.1.16.20000207100119.3e47fa9a@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.20000222085042.3c0f02b0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <018b01bf7d69$4c282280$59eb93c3@proteus> Hi Joe, > Take a look at "http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/hp9816.jpg.... >That's a 9816 sitting on top of a HP 9121 or 9122 disk drive.... Thanks, I'll have a look at that (and the rest of your HP pages). TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From aek at spies.com Tue Feb 22 13:37:30 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Information still needed for Infotron IF/65 Development System II for 65XX microprocessors and CUBIT EPROM Programming board - AIM-65 or KIM ? Message-ID: <200002221937.LAA30583@spies.com> Infotron made intellegent multiplexers, this might be a test set for that. They also made erzatz DH-11's a LONG time ago. From donm at cts.com Tue Feb 22 13:49:23 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Keyboards / Simon relay computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Kevin L. Anderson wrote: > A quick statement and a question: > > (1) I seem to recall that the keyboard used on the original Kaypro > luggable computer was labeled as the "IBM Selectric" keyboard. Kaypro must have been making a pretty generic comparison, as I certainly do not recall either a numeric keypad or arrow keys on the Selectric. - don > I had been a user of the IBM Selectric typewriter at the time of > using my first Kaypro computer, and recall the look and feel to be > identical (or at least similar enough) in the key shapes and > layout. When you folks mention the VT100 keyboard, you are talking > about a different animal, right? (Also a nice keyboard....) > > (2) Would someone please repost the URL for the Simon relay > computer. Thanks. > > Cheers. Kevin Anderson > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College > Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 > e-mail: kla@helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson@augustana.edu > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent > the administration of Augustana College. > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Feb 22 14:01:37 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: The tandy TRS 80 with 4 drives (fwd) Message-ID: This person has a TRS 80 that needs a new home. Unfortunately I don't know too much about it. Please contact the original sender for details. Reply-to: WADDL@aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:10:11 EST From: WADDL@aol.com To: vcf@siconic.com Subject: The tandy TRS 80 with 4 drives As far I know it is in good working order. I am in Corpus Christi, Texas Are you interested in it? Walter Dillard Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Feb 22 15:00:40 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: TV License in UK (was Re: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors?) In-Reply-To: References: from "Clint Wolff" at Feb 21, 0 03:33:45 pm Message-ID: <200002222002.VAA10553@mail2.siemens.de> > > Ummm.... Why do you need a license to operate a TV in the UK? And does > The money from the license is used to fund the BBC. But you still need > the license even if you only watch the commercial channels. Same over here in Germany - you may call it a tax, althrough the collection is not government driven. They use it for the public chanles (TV and Radio), but unlike in the UK, these Chanels also do comercials (but restricted). Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 22 14:35:54 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <018a01bf7d69$4b358520$59eb93c3@proteus>; from Peter Pachla on Tue, Feb 22, 2000 at 04:55:05PM -0000 References: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus>; <200002220540.XAA08286@garcon.laidbak.com> <018a01bf7d69$4b358520$59eb93c3@proteus> Message-ID: <20000222133554.B6016@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Feb 22, 2000 at 04:55:05PM -0000, Peter Pachla wrote: > putting "Esc" on the same row as the "F" keys, sigh, "Esc" lives next to the > "1" key or, at worst, in the top left corner of the numeric keypad.... :-( ESC should definitely be on the left. With it on the far upper left, isolated all by itself, the advantage is you can just reach up in the general direction and not have to worry about hitting anything else; whereas if it's next to the "1" it's not as far a reach in the first place. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From whdawson at mlynk.com Tue Feb 22 14:55:17 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Information still needed for Infotron IF/65 Development System II for 65XX microprocessors and CUBIT EPROM Programming board - AIM-65 or KIM ? In-Reply-To: <200002221937.LAA30583@spies.com> Message-ID: <000001bf7d77$204905e0$89e3dfd0@cobweb.net> >Infotron made intellegent multiplexers, this might >be a test set for that. >They also made erzatz DH-11's a LONG time ago. I forgot to mention on the back of the Infotron there are five DB25 connectors labeled as follows: TO MODEM, MALE; TO TERM, FEMALE AND THREE FEMALES LABELED: T NETWORK. Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From bill at chipware.com Tue Feb 22 15:06:49 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! Message-ID: <000d01bf7d78$bbe3f6d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Hi, Once again demonstrating my vast quantities of ignorance... I need a diode which completely blocks current in one direction and presents as little resistance in the other direction as possible. I bought a fist full of little glass ones at Radio Shack for 50 cents. On my Ohm meter, they show no conductance in one direction and 1400KOhm the other way. What do I need to get? RS (which is the only resource I have available, I need them like _NOW_) has many different kinds of diodes, ranging up to two dollars per pair. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Feb 22 15:19:42 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! Message-ID: <200002222119.NAA23733@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> Tell the group what you're trying to do, based on your requirements there are several alternatives! What type of application is this for? Kevin On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:06:49 -0500 classiccmp@classiccmp.org wrote: > Hi, > > Once again demonstrating my vast quantities of ignorance... > I need a diode which completely blocks current in one direction > and presents as little resistance in the other direction > as possible. I bought a fist full of little glass ones at > Radio Shack for 50 cents. On my Ohm meter, they show no > conductance in one direction and 1400KOhm the other way. > What do I need to get? RS (which is the only resource I > have available, I need them like _NOW_) has many different > kinds of diodes, ranging up to two dollars per pair. > > Thanks, > Bill Sudbrink From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 22 15:24:37 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: Diode help... HELP! (Bill Sudbrink) References: <000d01bf7d78$bbe3f6d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <14514.65173.281554.594391@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 22, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Once again demonstrating my vast quantities of ignorance... > I need a diode which completely blocks current in one direction > and presents as little resistance in the other direction > as possible. I bought a fist full of little glass ones at > Radio Shack for 50 cents. On my Ohm meter, they show no > conductance in one direction and 1400KOhm the other way. > What do I need to get? RS (which is the only resource I > have available, I need them like _NOW_) has many different > kinds of diodes, ranging up to two dollars per pair. Hmm...keep in mind that all semiconductor diodes exhibit a forward voltage drop...0.3v for germanium and 0.7v for silicon diodes. If your multimeter isn't using more than that forward voltage drop to measure that "conducting-mode" resistance, you won't get anywhere with that measurement method. -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 12:35:53 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 21, 0 07:42:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 904 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/d9c5223c/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 12:38:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <034d01bf7cdc$eeee30a0$0fea93c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 22, 0 01:46:37 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 744 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/c504e40f/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 13:06:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? In-Reply-To: <001e01bf7d42$8ddf5300$59eb93c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 22, 0 02:27:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 637 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/ecd5ca63/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 12:52:54 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: HP9114B battery pack In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20000222005927.00f30300@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> from "Carlos Murillo" at Feb 22, 0 00:59:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3693 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/f7ab8a66/attachment-0001.ksh From bill at chipware.com Tue Feb 22 15:46:54 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <200002222119.NAA23733@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <000f01bf7d7e$55a7e100$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Tell the group what you're trying to do, based on your > requirements there are several alternatives! > > What type of application is this for? This is totally off topic, by the way. Sorry... I have an embedded computer which has four user readable DIP switches on it. Board is running at 3.3 volts. I want to be able to distinguish between 7 possible SPST switches being closed (one at a time) or all being open. I thought "OK. I'll just convert the single switch event to a binary number by hooking it to the appropriate pins on the DIP switch. Then I'll prevent the multi-bit numbers from cross feeding the single bit events by putting diodes in." But, the diodes have too much resistance for the board to see the switch as closed. The single-bit switches, 1, 2 and 4, read just fine. Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 15:42:44 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <000d01bf7d78$bbe3f6d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Feb 22, 0 04:06:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2064 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/8e410641/attachment-0001.ksh From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Feb 22 16:04:35 2000 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! Message-ID: <20000222.160436.-303259.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Bill: You should test your diodes with an OHM Meter that has a high enough test voltage to overcome the barrier potential of approx 700mV for a silicon, and about 300mV for a germanium device. What sort of application are you looking use it for? For high current/voltage applications, silicon is pretty much your only choice, as they can be made with very high PRV (peak reverse voltage), and higher power rating. For small-signal use, germanium diodes work best; they have low barrier potential and lower 'ON' resistance (sounds like this is what you want). Used to be, the glass diodes RS used to sell were a mixture of both types. You can tell the difference with a DMM that has a 'diode' test range; the DMM will put enough voltage across the device to foreward bias it (turn it 'on') and display the apparent resistance of the device. Germanuim devices will have a lower apparent resistance. Another way would be to apply a (low) voltage across the device with a resistor in series, and measure the voltage across the device. Of course, all diodes have some reverse leakage current, and all diodes exhibit this 'barrier potential' phenomena; the trick is to find one with a low enough 'on' resistance that will satisfy your requirements. I used to get diodes from RS to make crystal sets; in those days, I found the best ones by wiring it into the set to test it! Jeff On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:06:49 -0500 "Bill Sudbrink" writes: > Hi, > > Once again demonstrating my vast quantities of ignorance... > I need a diode which completely blocks current in one direction > and presents as little resistance in the other direction > as possible. I bought a fist full of little glass ones at > Radio Shack for 50 cents. On my Ohm meter, they show no > conductance in one direction and 1400KOhm the other way. > What do I need to get? RS (which is the only resource I > have available, I need them like _NOW_) has many different > kinds of diodes, ranging up to two dollars per pair. > > Thanks, > Bill Sudbrink > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From marvin at rain.org Mon Feb 21 16:14:59 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Keyboards / Simon relay computer? References: Message-ID: <38B1B8E3.EA0E5704@rain.org> "Kevin L. Anderson" wrote: > > (2) Would someone please repost the URL for the Simon relay > computer. Thanks. If you are talking about who might have posted the scans, I have no idea if anyone has done that yet. But Doug has some information at: http://www.blinkenlights.com/ Just click on the Pop Quiz. From apple at cmc.net Tue Feb 22 16:18:08 2000 From: apple at cmc.net (Jack Noble) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! Message-ID: <011701bf7d82$b39d1560$ab1e66ce@apple> Germanium diodes have the least amount of voltage drop while conducting (about .06 volts I think) and a popular one that should be readily available is the 1N34 or 1N34A. The reason that diodes seem to act funny on an ohmmeter is because of the fwd voltage drop while conducting. The silicon diodes that you probably got at radio shack have a fwd drop of more than .5 volts and will appear as a high resistance to your meter even though they are conducting. Hope this helps Noble -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 1:44 PM Subject: Diode help... HELP! >Hi, > >Once again demonstrating my vast quantities of ignorance... >I need a diode which completely blocks current in one direction >and presents as little resistance in the other direction >as possible. I bought a fist full of little glass ones at >Radio Shack for 50 cents. On my Ohm meter, they show no >conductance in one direction and 1400KOhm the other way. >What do I need to get? RS (which is the only resource I >have available, I need them like _NOW_) has many different >kinds of diodes, ranging up to two dollars per pair. > >Thanks, >Bill Sudbrink From elvey at hal.com Tue Feb 22 16:18:13 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Information still needed for Infotron IF/65 Development System II for 65XX microprocessors and CUBIT EPROM Programming board - AIM-65 or KIM ? In-Reply-To: <002201bf7d67$996b1ae0$89e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <200002222218.OAA20911@civic.hal.com> "Bill Dawson" wrote: > > This programmer can be viewed at http://www.wpic.com/whdawson/Pics/cubit.jpg > > Thanks, > > Bill > > whdawson@mlynk.com Hi Bill I am currently buying a card exactly like the one you picture from hxho@pacbell.net. I am wondering because you are using the exact same .jpg. I just want to make sure I am not sending my money into a empty hole. Are you dealing with Ho or what??? Dwight From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Feb 22 16:18:50 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Thrift store finds... Message-ID: Book day today...I passed up 15 books I would have liked to have but was too stingy to shell out the $$$ for. What I did pick up is: Electronic data Processing, E. Wainright Martin, 1961. Intel Microprocessor and Peripheral Handbook, vol.2, 1987. 68000 Assembly Language Programming, Kane/Hawkins/Leventhal, 1981. Motorola MC68020 User's Manual, 1984. I also grabbed a couple of genuine Apple mousepads and a Macally clone keyboard for $2. They also had an HP terminal keyboard, but no terminal. I'm keeping my eyes open... Cheers, Aaron From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Feb 22 16:52:02 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <000f01bf7d7e$55a7e100$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> References: <200002222119.NAA23733@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> Message-ID: >> Tell the group what you're trying to do, based on your >> requirements there are several alternatives! >> >> What type of application is this for? > >This is totally off topic, by the way. Sorry... > >I have an embedded computer which has four user >readable DIP switches on it. Board is running >at 3.3 volts. I want to be able to distinguish >between 7 possible SPST switches being closed >(one at a time) or all being open. I thought >"OK. I'll just convert the single switch event >to a binary number by hooking it to the appropriate >pins on the DIP switch. Then I'll prevent the >multi-bit numbers from cross feeding the single >bit events by putting diodes in." But, the diodes >have too much resistance for the board to see the >switch as closed. The single-bit switches, 1, 2 >and 4, read just fine. > >Bill Sounds like a job for an IC, like 8 bit parallel to serial using one dip switch input for serial data perhaps clocked by sequential reads. Maybe a 7 bit binary to octal? 8 bit multiplexer? Sheesh, I shudder to think how many pens are busy on the backs of envelopes right now. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Feb 22 17:08:08 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! Message-ID: <002901bf7d89$af55f1a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Actually, germanium diodes, e.g. 1N43A, 1N270, etc, have a forward voltage on the order of 0.32 volts. There are numerous SCHOTTKY diodes with considerably lower forward voltage. Check the DigiKey catalog for possible candidates. Their catalog lists forward voltage as a characteristic. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jack Noble To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 3:39 PM Subject: Re: Diode help... HELP! >Germanium diodes have the least amount of voltage drop while conducting >(about .06 volts I think) and a popular one that should be readily available >is the 1N34 or 1N34A. The reason that diodes seem to act funny on an >ohmmeter is because of the fwd voltage drop while conducting. The silicon >diodes that you probably got at radio shack have a fwd drop of more than .5 >volts and will appear as a high resistance to your meter even though they >are conducting. Hope this helps > >Noble >-----Original Message----- >From: Bill Sudbrink >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 1:44 PM >Subject: Diode help... HELP! > > >>Hi, >> >>Once again demonstrating my vast quantities of ignorance... >>I need a diode which completely blocks current in one direction >>and presents as little resistance in the other direction >>as possible. I bought a fist full of little glass ones at >>Radio Shack for 50 cents. On my Ohm meter, they show no >>conductance in one direction and 1400KOhm the other way. >>What do I need to get? RS (which is the only resource I >>have available, I need them like _NOW_) has many different >>kinds of diodes, ranging up to two dollars per pair. >> >>Thanks, >>Bill Sudbrink > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 16:23:12 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <000f01bf7d7e$55a7e100$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Feb 22, 0 04:46:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 964 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/e7d5256a/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 17:01:48 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: More on the HP9114B Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2716 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/fec379a5/attachment-0001.ksh From elvey at hal.com Tue Feb 22 17:16:40 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Information still needed for Infotron IF/65 Development System II for 65XX microprocessors and CUBIT EPROM Programming board - AIM-65 or KIM ? In-Reply-To: <000201bf7d89$12b1d8a0$afe3dfd0@cobweb.net> Message-ID: <200002222316.PAA21661@civic.hal.com> Hi All I just made a mistake in sending to the group. I only meant to send to Bill. As it turns out, ther was no issue. Bill had borrowed the picture. I hope no one takes it against hxho@pacbell.net. He only loaned the picture and I was just checking the double match. Please forgive me Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 17:13:13 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Feb 22, 0 02:52:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 939 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/94c5719d/attachment-0001.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Feb 22 17:31:14 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <000f01bf7d7e$55a7e100$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> References: <200002222119.NAA23733@rm-rstar.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <4.1.20000222150646.00bfa330@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 04:46 PM 2/22/00 -0500, Bill wrote: >I have an embedded computer which has four user >readable DIP switches on it. Board is running >at 3.3 volts. I want to be able to distinguish >between 7 possible SPST switches being closed >(one at a time) or all being open. I thought >"OK. I'll just convert the single switch event >to a binary number by hooking it to the appropriate >pins on the DIP switch. Then I'll prevent the >multi-bit numbers from cross feeding the single >bit events by putting diodes in." But, the diodes >have too much resistance for the board to see the >switch as closed. The single-bit switches, 1, 2 >and 4, read just fine. The diodes aren't your problem. The circuit is. Even 1N914 "glass" diodes that you buy at radio shack will conduct at 3.3v. You are doing one row of a keyboard matrix encoder consider the following lousy ASCII diagram. The "*" are connection between wires, the D is a Diode pointed "down" and to the right. All inputs are presumed to be pulled up to Vcc when open circuited. Note that since you are using "ground" as your reference you can't detect switch #7 (only switches zero through six, although they can be silk screened 1 through 7 :-) The logic must detect .7v as being logic 0 (usually not a problem) Bit 0 ------*-------------*-------------*-------------*---- \ | | \ | | \ | | \ | D | | D | | D | | D | \| | \| | \| | \| * | * | * | * | | | | | | | Bit 1 ----------|--*---|--*---|------|------|--*---|--*---| | \ | \ | | | \ | \ | | D | D | | | D | D | | \| \| | | \| \| | * * | | * * | | | | | | | Bit 2 ----------|------|------|--*---|--*---|--*---|--*---| | | | \ | \ | \ | \ | | | | D | D | D | D | | | | \| \| \| \| | | | * * * * | | | | | | | | | | | | | | / / / / / / / / / / / / / / | | | | | | | Ground ---------+------+------+------+------+------+------+ Switch # 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 --Chuck From bill at chipware.com Tue Feb 22 17:35:51 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001001bf7d8d$8df6b680$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > > I have an embedded computer which has four user > > readable DIP switches on it. Board is running > > at 3.3 volts. I want to be able to distinguish > > between 7 possible SPST switches being closed > > (one at a time) or all being open. I thought > > If those SPST switches could become 2 and 3 pole switches, the problem is > trivial to solve.... Unfortunately, not possible. > > "OK. I'll just convert the single switch event > > to a binary number by hooking it to the appropriate > > pins on the DIP switch. Then I'll prevent the > > multi-bit numbers from cross feeding the single > > bit events by putting diodes in." But, the diodes > > have too much resistance for the board to see the > > switch as closed. The single-bit switches, 1, 2 > > and 4, read just fine. > > The current involved is presumably small, so the problem is the 0.7V > forward drop of the silicon diodes. > > You might try using germanium (if you can find them) or shottky diodes. > They should have a lower forward voltage drop. Thanks! From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Feb 22 17:40:04 2000 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: TI DS990/1 Message-ID: <38B31E53.842EB6BD@dragonsweb.org> Today's acqisition here is a TI DS990 Model 1 Intelligent Terminal. This designation appears to be a complete misnomer as it is in fact a full microcomputer. The case appears to be laid up in fiberglass from the same mold as a TI 820 KSR, and the logic bus has 86 pins, which I recall from other terminals of the late '70s, but it has a 3 Mhz TMS9900 processor (nice BIG white ceramic JDL part with gold pins), 64K of ram (4116's, plus parity), a TMS9900 based I/O controller board, 2 asych serial cards, floppy disk controller, and a VDU controller. Going by the configuration table on the back of the case there were other options available as well, including "GPH", which I am wondering whether might be some sort of bit-mapped graphics display. The backplane has a total of 12 slots, 7 occupied. There are what appear to be 3 serial connectors on the back of the case, but they do not connect directly to the serial cards. They go through the bus apparently. I've never had my hands on an 820, but I don't think they're this elaborate, and the 911 VDT's I have certainly aren't. Nice hefty modular 200W linear power supply with its own bus, too. This particular unit has seen some rough handling at some point, and is missing a few keycaps, but it is clean, and powers up. There's a nice raster on the screen, but no cursor. Apparently it must boot off a disk. There's a 25 pin connector on the back of the case which must be for a cable to a FD800/1000 dual 8" drive (which I don't have yet). The "IDLE" and "EXEC" lights on what amounts to a minimal front panel on the keyboard light up, but that's it. No "ERR", anyway. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, so I can track down the problem. In actual use, from what I was told, it was probably hooked up by modem to Tymshare, the predecessor of Tymnet, and thence to a central facility. It has lttle bezels on the front shoulders of the case that identify it as a Tymshare Travel Business System BS2000. As an aside, I did a little searching, and apparently MCI/Worldcom is still running Tymnet, now on rackmount Sparc-based nodes rather than the earlier PDP-10's.and M68K's (I preferred Telenet for X.25; they were always a year or two ahead on dial-in speeds where I was.) Anyway, if anyone has manuals or software, in particular a bootable system disk, for this machine, I'm all ears. Likewise, if anyone has any questions about it, I'll do my best to answer them. jbdigriz -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- DragonsWeb Labs - Custom R&D, Software, & Hardware ---------------------------------------------------------------- Tagline for Tuesday, February 22, 2000 If rabbits feet are so lucky, what happened to the rabbit? ---------------------------------------------------------------- James B. DiGriz - jbdigriz@dragonsweb.org - (912) 653-5139 ---------------------------------------------------------------- From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Feb 22 12:55:08 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus> from "Peter Pachla" at Feb 21, 0 07:42:22 pm Message-ID: <200002222353.e1MNr8j18698@admin.cgocable.net> Hi! I'm banging on 8 years old 101key model M keyboard plugged into 1 year old machine. My bench stuff has this keyboard too. And 4 more for parts plus 1 spacesaver modified to have LEDs. Keytronics is sorta ok. Thinkpads of most models. What about Logitech keyboards? What I prefer: -no stick, no grinding feel, binding or creaking. -clear, sharp positive feedback feel. -light to medium-light pressure. -no miss even pressed lightly get characters back. What I don't like: compaq's notebook/laptop keyboards it binds and grinds too heavy pressure to trip "rollover", Dec keyboards (no feedback by feel!), mushy ie: M$ natural, Tandy keyboards, zenith's both pc and at keyboards. Pet pevee: coiled keyboard cords on those IBM mod M keyboards! Wizard From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 22 18:46:08 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <000d01bf7d78$bbe3f6d0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000222194608.3eef818e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Bill, If you have other power available you can make an active diode with a diode and an op amp. With those there is NO forward voltage loss. It depends on what you're trying to do. Joe At 04:06 PM 2/22/00 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, > >Once again demonstrating my vast quantities of ignorance... >I need a diode which completely blocks current in one direction >and presents as little resistance in the other direction >as possible. I bought a fist full of little glass ones at >Radio Shack for 50 cents. On my Ohm meter, they show no >conductance in one direction and 1400KOhm the other way. >What do I need to get? RS (which is the only resource I >have available, I need them like _NOW_) has many different >kinds of diodes, ranging up to two dollars per pair. > >Thanks, >Bill Sudbrink > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Feb 22 18:51:52 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: References: <034d01bf7cdc$eeee30a0$0fea93c3@proteus> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000222195152.3eefadb8@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:38 PM 2/22/00 +0000, you wrote: >> How did the touch screen operate then, infra red beams? > >For the HP150, yes. Emitters on the left side and bottom, detectors on >the right side and top. The resolution was good enough to select one of a >pair of characters IIRC (it cheated, and used 2 adjacent beams blocked as >to detect when you were midway between said beams). > >> >> ISTR that I once saw a touch screen (in fact probably the only one I've ever >> seen) which was some sort of transparent layer attached to the face of the >> CRT, it looked rather like an anti-glare covering. It was nice as you >> couldn't smudge it.... :-) > >The HP Omingo 100 pocket computer uses a thing like that (you write on >the LCD screen with a stylus). It wears out _very_ quickly, though. I have an Apple Newton 120 that uses a stylus. This one works well, there are no marks on it after a number of years of use. Joe > >-tony > > From bill at chipware.com Tue Feb 22 18:15:27 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000222150646.00bfa330@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <001101bf7d93$166697b0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > Chuck McManis gave me a circuit diagram... Hmmm... Here's what I was trying: [*] for connection [D] for diode like this: -*->|-* | Binary 1-------*----|----D----|----D----|----D | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 2-------|----*----D----|----|----D----D | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 3-------|----|----|----*----D----D----D | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | \ \ \ \ \ \ \ *----*----*----*----*----*----*----GND Switch: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Or, to put it in flat english: switch 1 to binary pin 1, direct connect switch 2 to binary pin 2, direct connect switch 3 to binary pin 1 through diode switch 3 to binary pin 2 through diode switch 4 to binary pin 3, direct connect switch 5 to binary pin 1 through diode switch 5 to binary pin 3 through diode switch 6 to binary pin 2 through diode switch 6 to binary pin 3 through diode switch 7 to binary pin 1 through diode switch 7 to binary pin 2 through diode switch 7 to binary pin 3 through diode This should let me detect any one switch closed or all switches open. What I get is the ability to detect switches 1, 2 and 4 and no others... which leads me to the conclusion that the diodes are a problem. From aek at spies.com Tue Feb 22 18:14:54 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: TI DS990/1 Message-ID: <200002230014.QAA26688@spies.com> there is a dissassembly of the boot rom for the 990/4 up at www.spies.com/aek/orphan.html now, along with one for the 990/12. If you have a way to dump the boot proms, it would be interesting to see how similar they were. If you have a way to take pictures of the boards, I'd be curious to see what the I/O cards look like, esp the floppy controller board. From vaxman at uswest.net Tue Feb 22 19:03:44 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: How many Vaxes? In-Reply-To: <38B2A4B7.48B50266@arrl.net> Message-ID: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Dan Kolb > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2000 5:20 > > > Subject: Re: How many Vaxes? > > > > > > > On a semi-related note, what sort of Vaxen do people on this list > Hmm... In mostly working condition (all de-installed while I finish my basement, mostly stored in living room) 11/750 - TU80, 1 Eagle, 3 Avalon coprocessors (no docs), 14MB, BSD 4.3 when I get around to building a console tape to install it uVAX II - STC GCR 9-track, TK50, TK70, 16MB, 3 fuji M2337 drives, RD53, RD54, VMS 5.4? uVAX III - STC GC 9-track (shared with above), TK50, 16MB, SCSI, Quantum Fireball SE 2.1GB, Ultrix 3.1 uVAX 2000 - TK50, 2xRD54, 14MB, dead 4-plane Untested: 1-VAXStation II in BA23 case (missing cabinet kit for QDSS board) 6-DECstation 3100 (unknown options) 6-VAXStation 3100 (unknown options) 2-VAXStation 3100/M38 (unknown options) Spares: At least two complete board sets for the 11/750, three uVAX II CPUs, and a stack of paperwork I haven't inventoried yet... The plan is to build 2 or 3 VS3100s with orthoganol hardware selections, then unload the rest as tested/working systems... I'm still looking for a uPDP 11/73 to fill out my collection.... Any offers :) Clint From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Feb 22 19:16:19 2000 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:50 2005 Subject: TI DS990/1 References: <200002230014.QAA26688@spies.com> Message-ID: <38B334E2.E08A0C3A@dragonsweb.org> Al Kossow wrote: > there is a dissassembly of the boot rom for the 990/4 up at > www.spies.com/aek/orphan.html now, along with one for the 990/12. > I'll be looking at it for clues. Thanks. I have a suspicion there are going to be some major differences, though. > > If you have a way to dump the boot proms, it would be interesting > to see how similar they were. It has a couple of EPROMs on the I/O processor board. Don't have any way to dump them at the moment but will soon. > > > If you have a way to take pictures of the boards, I'd be curious > to see what the I/O cards look like, esp the floppy controller > board. I have a video camera and a capture board I'm putting in another machine. Hopefully sometime this week. Will let you know. When I first saw the boards, I thought they might be TM990/100M modules, but they only have 86 pins, not 100, and the bus edge is centered, not offset like the 990/100M, and not split like the 990/10 (or 4) 13-slot chassis. Release levers only on one end. Little rubber bumpers where a lever would go on the other end. The floppy controller board looks like mostly glue logic and a few drivers. I suspect the I/O processor does most of the work. jbdigriz -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- DragonsWeb Labs - Custom R&D, Software, & Hardware ---------------------------------------------------------------- Tagline for Tuesday, February 22, 2000 If rabbits feet are so lucky, what happened to the rabbit? ---------------------------------------------------------------- James B. DiGriz - jbdigriz@dragonsweb.org - (912) 653-5139 ---------------------------------------------------------------- From oliv555 at arrl.net Tue Feb 22 19:43:32 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: 11/785 available Message-ID: <38B33B44.3D60CD39@arrl.net> For anyone that may be interested, a posting just came up on comp.sys.dec.micro offering (free) a VAX11/785. No location specified. Did'nt copy over his text as im not sure if its 'kosher' to do so without posters permission. Good luck, Nick From emu at ecubics.com Tue Feb 22 20:22:34 2000 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: 11/785 available References: <38B33B44.3D60CD39@arrl.net> Message-ID: <060a01bf7da4$dafc4e60$5d01a8c0@p2350> ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Oliviero To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 18:43 Subject: 11/785 available > For anyone that may be interested, a posting just came up on > comp.sys.dec.micro offering (free) a VAX11/785. No location > specified. I asked him already. It's SF area :-( cheers, emanuel From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Feb 22 20:36:14 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <001101bf7d93$166697b0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> References: <4.1.20000222150646.00bfa330@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000222182634.0256cb90@mcmanis.com> At 07:15 PM 2/22/00 -0500, Bill wrote: > > Chuck McManis gave me a circuit diagram... > >Hmmm... Here's what I was trying: > >[*] for connection > >[D] for diode like this: -*->|-* > | > Your circuit is nearly equivalent. I'm guessing that you don't have the pins pulled high to Vcc through a small enough resistor. This is what I think is happening. When the input pins are floating, there is enough leakage to pull them high, but when they are grounded directly they go low. The back side of a diode "looks" like an open circuit to the floating pin. You can test my theory as follows. Connect pin 1 to a diode then to ground through a switch. Read back the pin while changing the switch. What do you get? (given your previous experience it will probably read as a logic '1' both ways) Now pull the pin high by connecting a 4.7K resistor between the pin and Vcc behind the diode so you have this: Vcc | R (4.7K) | Pin ----+-----|>|----/ ---Ground Now repeat the experiment. If I'm right you'll see the switch this time. If I'm wrong you should look for some Shottky diodes :-) --Chuck From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 22 20:30:17 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Touchscreens (was Re: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <034d01bf7cdc$eeee30a0$0fea93c3@proteus>; from Peter Pachla on Tue, Feb 22, 2000 at 01:46:37AM -0000 References: <048101bf7119$3cf56720$91d993c3@proteus> <200002070425.UAA86423@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <034d01bf7cdc$eeee30a0$0fea93c3@proteus> Message-ID: <20000222193017.B7106@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Feb 22, 2000 at 01:46:37AM -0000, Peter Pachla wrote: > >....concluded that while the 150 wasn't that bad, touch screens > >were not all that they were cracked up to be.... > >....it resulted in a sort of fatigue that was called "gorilla > >arm".... > > Quite, I can believe it. I recall messing around with a light pen on my > Atari back around 1984, nice idea but my arm would soon start to ache if I > used it a lot....so I gave up on it (but then this is the man who hates > function keys above the keyboard as he can't operate them with the little > finger of his left hand (lazy or what!?)). I really like the Sun "Starfire" concept. It's very pie-in-the-sky at this point... but basically you sit in front of a giant screen whose lower 18" is horizontal, like a desk, and curves upwards and inwards like a baseball backstop. The entire thing is a touchscreen and scanner also; any paper you lay on the surface becomes an electronic document with no further intervention. You can work on the horizontal surface to reduce arm fatigue but also drag reference materials or large windows of other kinds up onto the vertical part of the display. So it would seem to be the best of both worlds (vertical monitor for easy reading, combined with a horizontal work surface like a drafting table). This was never built of course, they did a "video prototype". I've seen the video once but it has become available retail so I ordered a copy to see it again. Once wireless touchscreen "web pads" become more commonplace we may see people using those to operate a big-screen display remotely; the pad can display user-interface elements while the big-screen shows what you're actually working on. You can position it however it's most comfortable. > How did the touch screen operate then, infra red beams? There have been a variety of touchscreen and pen type devices over the years. The most common ones now are the resistive and capacitive types; both involve a film coating over the CRT. With the resistive one, there are two layers with some kind of grid of transparent resistive traces; and the pressure of your finger causes them to come into more intimate contact, lowering the resistance between the two traces which cross at that point. The resistance is proportional to the pressure, and this is handy in some applications. With the capacitive type, the presence of your finger changes the capacitance and this gets detected, but these screens are not pressure-sensitive. You can also use a stylus that has a similar effect on the capacitance, but not a hard-tipped one. There is also the Surface Acoustic Wave (SAW) variety, which (I think) somehow uses ultrasound to detect very slight deformations in the glass as you press your finger against it; this type is also pressure-sensitive. There have been infrared beam touchscreens but those tend to be lower-resolution. It detects your finger breaking a pair of crossing beams. And of course there's the old lightpen trick. There is a hardware register somewhere which has a pointer to the VRAM memory location where the color value for the current dot (or character) being painted is coming from; so when the pen detects that the phosphor dot under it has just been lit up by the electron gun, simply go check that pointer to determine what the coordinates of that dot are. I imagine high-persistence phosphors probably interfere with the ability of this method to work very well. And there is another kind of touchscreen that is simply a base that you set a conventional monitor on. I believe it detects a force differential between several strain gauges; as you push on the screen, the weight distribution on the base changes in proportion to where you're pushing and how hard. But it's been a while since I've seen material on this kind and I've never seen an actual unit. I'd bet the calibration would be somewhat finicky. For use with a stylus, the additional options are RF-based. Some of them require the stylus (or puck, in the case of a digitizing board) to be powered and emitting a low-power radio signal. It's picked up by a criss-crossing grid of circuit board traces behind the screen, which act as antennae, and the signal strength gives it a clue to where the pen is located. An advantage of this method is that you can move the cursor without physical contact. My Dauphin DTR-1 uses this type of digitizer, and I can move the cursor with the pen up to 1/2" or so away from the screen. Pressing it down is equivalent to a mouse click. The disadvantage is that the pen must be powered, with batteries in the case of the DTR-1 or else tethered to the machine in other cases. There are also RF-type pens that are passive; the machine emits RF and the pen acts as a transponder to relay it back. My IBM 730T Thinkpad uses an unpowered type of pen but I haven't opened it up to see if the detector is just a grid of circuit board traces or something more. I believe the Newton and other practical PDAs like the Palm probably use resistive screens, because they work with your finger as well as the stylus (but with less precision), and the stylus is just a chunk of plastic. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Feb 22 20:31:20 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: 11/785 available In-Reply-To: <060a01bf7da4$dafc4e60$5d01a8c0@p2350> Message-ID: Uh, you don't think they'd let me take this on the plane as carry-on luggage, huh? I'm going to be in SF on Monday for work... (looking at a picture of an 11/785 on netbsd.org) On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, emanuel stiebler wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Nick Oliviero > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 18:43 > Subject: 11/785 available > > > > For anyone that may be interested, a posting just came up on > > comp.sys.dec.micro offering (free) a VAX11/785. No location > > specified. > > I asked him already. It's SF area :-( > > cheers, > emanuel > > From nerdware at laidbak.com Tue Feb 22 21:55:32 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard In-Reply-To: <018a01bf7d69$4b358520$59eb93c3@proteus> Message-ID: <200002230355.VAA22275@garcon.laidbak.com> From: "Peter Pachla" > Actually, now you mention it, I really liked the old keyboards which Apple > shipped with the Mac Plus and earlier. I guess it's personal preference, but I don't like the 128/Plus keyboards as much. Felt sorta weird to me. > > > And one of the worst keyboards I've ever used is the standard ADB keyboard > I got with my "Classic II". "Yuck" just doesn't cover it....I can see why > people quickly switched to the extended keyboards. > Amen to that. And I'm still not that fond of the extended boards. I use the IIgs board on my 9500, I have a Datadesk 101e on my 8500 (nice clicky microswitches) and I use an Apple Keyboard II on my DuoDock. When I get my office rearranged, the 8500 will get the Ergo, the Duo will get the Datadesk, and the 7200 will get the KBII. I'll move the Extended to the SE/30. > > Absolutely, I can operate the function keys on my 84 key keyboard with my > left hand without even thinking about it. With them arranged along the top > I have to make a concious decision to use the apt key, and then take my > hand off the main part of the keyboard to operate the keys....which REALLY > disturbs my rhythm when I'm using the machine. > They tried to give me a new keyboard once, and I threw a tantrum until they let me keep the old one. We switched to Evil$soft Naturals a couple of years later, which was fine except that keyboard shortcuts that I could type with one hand now required unnatural reaches from one half to the other....now that I'm out of cad and into IT, it's ergo all the way. Just wish they used better keys instead of rubber domes. > I've not used very many laptop keyboards. I do like the keyboard on my > Toshiba T3100SX (for which I need a working power controller PCB) I just scrapped one at work, but it wouldn't have helped you any. I tried to power it up for fun, and nothing but the smell of previously toasted electronics. Keyboard was sort of busted up also.... Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 22 22:03:33 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: HP9114B battery pack Message-ID: <200002230403.XAA07551@world.std.com> I finally built a rack for my 9track tapes and went through them all. In addition to what looks like an entire software distribution for my (still dead) Cadnetix system, I found two VMS tapes, available to anyone interested: XDS-11 Base Package Signetics' Amaze Rev.C Binary (must be an *ancient* version of this, marked 1985) Cheers, Aaron From mmcmanus at direct.ca Tue Feb 22 23:43:17 2000 From: mmcmanus at direct.ca (mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Archive Viper Data Cartridge Drive - Available for cost of shippi ng References: Message-ID: <00a901bf7dc0$e341db00$0c8442d8@o9r9l7> Archive Viper Data Cartridge Drive - Available for cost of shippingI would love to have the unit. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: John Dykstra To: classiccmp-digest@classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2000 3:59 PM Subject: Archive Viper Data Cartridge Drive - Available for cost of shippi ng I've got an Archive "Viper" 150 MB. data cartridge drive with SCSI interface, model 2150S, available to the first responder for the cost of shipping. The drive worked the last time I used it (several years ago), but there's no warranty. The belt, heads and capstan are unworn and appear in good condition. This is the drive only--no enclosure or power supply. If you want them, I also have seven data cartridges. Althrough they physically fit this drive, they may not all be accepted by the drive's firmware--I have a half memory that certain drives only worked with certain cartridges. If you want this drive and the cartridges, email me your address, desired method of shipping, and whether you want the cartridges. If I don't hear anything by Wednesday, it goes up on eBay. ---- John Dykstra jdykstra@nortelnetworks.com Principal Software Architect voice: +1 651 415-1604 Nortel Networks fax: +1 612 932-8549 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000222/eb7d6737/attachment-0001.html From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Feb 23 00:52:17 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Stuff to trade/stuff I'm looking for In-Reply-To: Aaron Christopher Finney's message of "Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:02:57 -0800 (PST)" References: Message-ID: <200002230652.WAA33003@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: [Aaron's looking for:] > A keyboard for my HP2649 terminal > > HP2392, HP2622, or HP2645 terminal. I need one for my 3000 (using a laptop > with an HP term program right now). The 2649 I have is dubious; I get a > screen full of what looks like garbage to me, but then again, I don't have > a keyboard and, in addition, the 2649 is interesting in that it could have > a custom program on it for something other than being a straight terminal. I can't remember whether the terminal would come up without the keyboard (but I think so), and I don't really know for sure what is inside a 2649 though I think it's not too different from a 2641/2645/2648, meaning an 8080 processor...unfortunately my memory's far enough gone that I don't really remember what's inside a 2645 either beyond a bunch of boards. But those boards would be things like a processor card (which I think also has ROM and about 1KB of RAM), a keyboard interface, a datacomm interface, one or more cards for the display, and zero or more memory cards. Some of the cards (but not the memory) would also be joined at their tops by a sort of "frontplane" interconnect board. That said, there's limited interchangeability between 264X terminal keyboards. Once upon a time I swapped keyboards and keyboard interface cards between a 2640B and 2645A just to see if I could, and it mostly worked. Of course, there was the matter that the 2640B keyboard didn't have all the same keys, and its baud rate switch wasn't labeled above 2400. So far as the 3000's concerned, you could also use 262x (for x>1; 2621 will work for character mode but will not support VPLUS block-mode applications), 2382 (which is nice and small but has a 9" display), 239x, or 700/9x terminals. Or an HP150, which pretends to be a 2623A graphics terminal when it's not being a personal computer. BTW, I think you mentioned passing up some HP terminal keyboards, and you might want to stop that, as the keyboards have a habit of becoming detached from the rest of the terminal on their way through the surplus food chain. Once you start thinking about network configuration with NMMGR, a 264X terminal can be a problem as later versions of NMMGR were made to use the terminal's function key display area for some screens, and 264X terminals don't have a function key display area. I have no idea why NMMGR was changed; as near as I can tell it was mostly gratuitous on HP's part and NMMGR will still function correctly, you just have to know which function keys correspond to which functions on those screens. (Guess who was still using a 2645 as the system console and only hardwired terminal on his 3000/58. Fortunately, I did know which buttons to push.) On the other hand, the 2645 will run Space Invaders, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that the 2649 would too. > An HD for my HP3000 that will fit in the bottom rack space. I've gotten > some great info from Joe Rigdon on models and have my eyes open; I need > something big enough so that I can do the initial install of MPE V 3P with > full subsys (it's been estimated that I need at least 100mb or so). A 7958 is about (a little larger than, I think) 100MB and will work and fit in a 3000/37 cabinet. 7958B is faster than 7958A if it matters. I think bigger numbers (e.g. 7959 and 796x) are larger capacities. -Frank McConnell From Jgzabol at aol.com Wed Feb 23 02:03:55 2000 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: 11/785 available Message-ID: In einer eMail vom 2/23/100 3:39:04AM, schreiben Sie: << Uh, you don't think they'd let me take this on the plane as carry-on luggage, huh? I'm going to be in SF on Monday for work... >> According to my experience, shipping this beast would be around US$ 1000,- (within US or to Europe, not counting forwarding within Europe). Not too bad for a solid item like this, I believe. John G. Zabolitzy Munich, Germany From S.D.Birchall at pgr.salford.ac.uk Wed Feb 23 07:05:44 2000 From: S.D.Birchall at pgr.salford.ac.uk (S.D.Birchall@pgr.salford.ac.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: orbis home computer course? In-Reply-To: <00a901bf7dc0$e341db00$0c8442d8@o9r9l7> Message-ID: <20000223132606.7162.qmail@pan.salford.ac.uk> Hi, does anyone have this set of mags, in the UK? who'd be willing to sell/trade? Regards, Stu From mbg at world.std.com Wed Feb 23 07:45:01 2000 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: 11/785 available - contact original author Message-ID: <200002231345.IAA00758@world.std.com> - - - - - Are they any web sites or companies that might be interested in buying or taking away (for free) a 11/785 that is getting ready to be unplugged? tia Shale@sclay.com - - - - - From bill at chipware.com Wed Feb 23 08:56:55 2000 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! In-Reply-To: <200002230404.XAA08125@world.std.com> Message-ID: <001801bf7e0e$39c22550$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Well... Here's what happens when you make assumptions and start to panic. Turns out the problem was simple. The pins were being pulled up to 3.3 not down to ground. All my diodes were backwards. Reverse the diodes, problem solved. Thanks everybody for the help. Bill From edick at idcomm.com Wed Feb 23 09:18:00 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Diode help... HELP! Message-ID: <001701bf7e11$2c59f520$0400c0a8@winbook> I'll bet you've gained a real appreciation for DIP or SIP packaged DIODES! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 8:10 AM Subject: RE: Diode help... HELP! >Well... Here's what happens when you make assumptions >and start to panic. > >Turns out the problem was simple. The pins were being >pulled up to 3.3 not down to ground. All my diodes >were backwards. Reverse the diodes, problem solved. > >Thanks everybody for the help. > >Bill > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Feb 23 10:23:15 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: OT: Question about GIF optimisation In-Reply-To: <001801bf7e0e$39c22550$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> References: <200002230404.XAA08125@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200002231526.QAA27224@mail2.siemens.de> I know, this isn't exactly on topic (well, maybe it is, since GIF is alreads more than 10 years around), but I think that some folks around are deep into bit munging :) Is there any tool known to optimize GIF files in size ? It hapened that I just changed some GIFs and without changeing the content the files did grow. After some research I found that the editor I used adds some headers (or whatever) structures, increasing the file size. Not a big increase, but if a 900 Byte picture grows to 1100 I'd like to remove the overhead. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.de/VCFe http://www.homecomputer.de/VCFe From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Feb 23 09:46:31 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: OT: Question about GIF optimisation Message-ID: <000223104631.25602355@trailing-edge.com> >Is there any tool known to optimize GIF files in size ? >It hapened that I just changed some GIFs and without >changeing the content the files did grow. After some >research I found that the editor I used adds some headers >(or whatever) structures, increasing the file size. >Not a big increase, but if a 900 Byte picture grows >to 1100 I'd like to remove the overhead. The best way is to convert the GIF into a "portable" bitmap (i.e. nothing but the bits), then back into a GIF again. I've been doing this for a decade with a package called NetPBM: NetPBM, GRAPHICS, Suite of graphic image format manipulation & conversion pgms Enhanced portable bitmap toolkit. The PBMPLUS toolkit allows conversions between image files of different format. By means of using common intermediate formats, only 2 * N conversion filters are required to support N distinct formats, instead of the N**2 which would be required to convert directly between any one format and any other. The package also includes simple tools for manipulating portable bitmaps. As of the last release I built (early 90's), it was supposedly available at: * wuarchive.wustl.edu (128.252.135.4), directory /graphics/graphics/packages/NetPBM * ikaros.fysik4.kth.se (130.237.35.2), directory /pub/netpbm. * ftp.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de (134.106.1.9). This site also carries binaries for the Amiga. * peipa.essex.ac.uk (155.245.115.161), directory ipa/src/manip * ftp.rahul.net (192.160.13.1), directory /pub/davidsen/source * ftp.cs.ubc.ca, directory /ftp/archive/netpbm What *I* like about NetPBM is that it's a command-line tool, not a "point-and-drool" graphics tool. This means that when I have a few thousand images to convert (as I just did yesterday) that I can do them all with a command script. I especially like it for things like auto-cropping and twiddling colormaps to make backgrounds be "transparent". -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ss at allegro.com Wed Feb 23 12:44:28 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Stuff to trade/stuff I'm looking for In-Reply-To: <200002230652.WAA33003@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <200002231845.KAA23999@opus.allegro.com> Re: > keyboard (but I think so), and I don't really know for sure what is > inside a 2649 though I think it's not too different from a > 2641/2645/2648, meaning an 8080 processor...unfortunately my memory's I thought the 2649 was the OEM version of the 2645 ... and that some of them were sold to people who developed 2649-resident software. > > An HD for my HP3000 that will fit in the bottom rack space. I've gotten > > some great info from Joe Rigdon on models and have my eyes open; I need > > something big enough so that I can do the initial install of MPE V 3P with > > full subsys (it's been estimated that I need at least 100mb or so). I actually bought one :) I got a Coyote (HP 6000 670H), about 600 MB?, for $300 from a used equipment vendor. Of course, I bought it with company money, not personal money :) It doesn't fit in the cabinet, but it's 22" deep, 13" wide, 5" tall. SS Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu Wed Feb 23 14:28:38 2000 From: jott at saturn.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: CD rom from "Microsoft Access 2.0 How-To CD" book Message-ID: <20000223152838.B13730@saturn.ee.nd.edu> Hello - I know this doesn't meet the 10 year rule, but it is obsolete. I bought a copy of this book. When I got home I noticed the CD was missing. I called the publisher to buy copy of the CD. They told me the book was out of print and couldn't sell me a CD. I ask if I found one, could I leaglly make a copy. They said yes. I am looking for the cd in order to make a copy. I have a cd burner. Thanks. john -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * * * * ************************************************************************ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 23 12:55:21 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Touchscreens (was Re: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? In-Reply-To: <20000222193017.B7106@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at Feb 22, 0 07:30:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 393 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000223/8cf91c46/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 23 12:58:23 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: HP9114B battery pack In-Reply-To: <200002230403.XAA07551@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Feb 22, 0 11:03:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 939 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000223/23801db3/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 23 14:11:50 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: OT: Question about GIF optimisation In-Reply-To: <000223104631.25602355@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Feb 23, 0 10:46:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 989 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000223/f78c1d06/attachment-0001.ksh From af-list at wfi-inc.com Wed Feb 23 16:04:06 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Stuff to trade/stuff I'm looking for In-Reply-To: <200002231845.KAA23999@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Feb 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: > > keyboard (but I think so), and I don't really know for sure what is > > inside a 2649 though I think it's not too different from a > > 2641/2645/2648, meaning an 8080 processor...unfortunately my memory's > > I thought the 2649 was the OEM version of the 2645 ... and that some > of them were sold to people who developed 2649-resident software. Exactly the case. In fact, I believe it was Wirt Amir on the hp3000-l list who was telling me about how his company actually programmed them to be stand-alone wordprocessors. > > > > An HD for my HP3000 that will fit in the bottom rack space. I've gotten > > > some great info from Joe Rigdon on models and have my eyes open; I need > > > something big enough so that I can do the initial install of MPE V 3P with > > > full subsys (it's been estimated that I need at least 100mb or so). > > I actually bought one :) > > I got a Coyote (HP 6000 670H), about 600 MB?, for $300 from a used equipment > vendor. Of course, I bought it with company money, not personal money :) > > It doesn't fit in the cabinet, but it's 22" deep, 13" wide, 5" tall. Thanks for the info! $300 is more than I want to spend on this one, but I may have to figure out something if my patience starts to run out... Cheers, Aaron From pryor at wi.net Wed Feb 23 16:34:41 2000 From: pryor at wi.net (James Pryor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets Message-ID: <38B46081.A9EE2012@wi.net> Does anyone know of a site listing upcoming swapmeets? I'm interested mainly in the midwest area. Dayton Hamvention? Trenton Computerfest? thanks... Jim From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 17:10:47 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets Message-ID: <20000223231047.7910.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- James Pryor wrote: > Does anyone know of a site listing upcoming swapmeets? > > I'm interested mainly in the midwest area. The best resource I know is the ARRL - http://www.arrl.com/hamfests.html You can search by region or State. > Dayton Hamvention? http://www.hamvention.org/ > Trenton Computerfest? Dunno... never been. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain goes away on 15 March. See http://www.infinet.com/ for details. Please update your address lists to reflect my new address: erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Wed Feb 23 17:13:06 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets In-Reply-To: <38B46081.A9EE2012@wi.net> Message-ID: <000001bf7e53$8b710b10$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> James Pryor said: > Does anyone know of a site ... Trenton Here's one for Ya: Trenton Computer Festival May 6th & 7th, 2000 "the oldest, largest, and best computer show" http://www.tcf-nj.org/ John A. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of James Pryor Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2000 5:35 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets Does anyone know of a site listing upcoming swapmeets? I'm interested mainly in the midwest area. Dayton Hamvention? Trenton Computerfest? thanks... Jim From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Feb 23 22:13:47 2000 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets In-Reply-To: <38B46081.A9EE2012@wi.net> Message-ID: Hello James On 23-Feb-00, you wrote: > Does anyone know of a site listing upcoming swapmeets? > > I'm interested mainly in the midwest area. > > Dayton Hamvention? > > Trenton Computerfest? > > thanks... Jim > Get a copy or subscription to Nuts and Volts: www.nutsvolts.com or email editor@nutsvolts.com 1-800783-4624 subs only Well worth the money Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP amigaphile and boatanchor collector From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Wed Feb 23 17:36:31 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Machines available, Birmingham UK. Message-ID: <011601bf7e56$f64d1fc0$cde993c3@proteus> Hi Due to the arrival of an RS/6000 and another MicroVAX II I really need to get rid of the following gear....quickly! Available free, or in exchange for stuff I can use (email me for a copy of the wants list): 3Com 3Station x2 286 based, PC compatible diskless workstations. Acorn BBC Model B Apple file://e CBM +4 Complete system, including tapes and cartridges. CBM C-16 Machine only. CBM PET 4032 (small screen) CBM PET 4032 (large screen) CBM PET 8032 x2 CBM PET 8096 C/W 8050 drives, 8032P printer, software & manuals. DEC DECMate III IBM PC System Units NCR system Integral monitor, printer and tape drive. Tandy CoCo II Complete with a couple of cartridges. There may also be a bunch of other stuff to come too, depending on whether people who previously showed an interest still want it. Email me directly please, let's not clog up the list with this. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Feb 23 19:22:43 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets In-Reply-To: <38B46081.A9EE2012@wi.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000223202243.274f9072@mailhost.intellistar.net> Jim, Nuts N Volts website has a list of hamfests. I think the ARRL has a website with a list also. Don't rely on a single list, they're usually not complete. Joe At 04:34 PM 2/23/00 -0600, you wrote: >Does anyone know of a site listing upcoming swapmeets? > >I'm interested mainly in the midwest area. > >Dayton Hamvention? > >Trenton Computerfest? > >thanks... Jim > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Feb 23 19:25:47 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Nuts N Volts Re: Computer/Ham Swapmeets In-Reply-To: References: <38B46081.A9EE2012@wi.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000223202547.274f6a62@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:13 PM 2/23/00 -0500, Gary wrote: >Hello James > >On 23-Feb-00, you wrote: > >> Does anyone know of a site listing upcoming swapmeets? >> >> I'm interested mainly in the midwest area. >> >> Dayton Hamvention? >> >> Trenton Computerfest? >> >> thanks... Jim >> >Get a copy or subscription to Nuts and Volts: > >www.nutsvolts.com or email editor@nutsvolts.com > >1-800783-4624 subs only > >Well worth the money Save your money and get a subscription while you're at the hamfest. It costs half as much there as it does by mail order. Don't ask me why. You don't have to be a subscrber to look up the hamfest list on their website. Joe > > >Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP > >amigaphile and boatanchor collector > > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Wed Feb 23 18:32:00 2000 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets In-Reply-To: <20000223231047.7910.qmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> from Ethan Dicks at "Feb 23, 2000 03:10:47 pm" Message-ID: <200002240032.TAA08221@bg-tc-ppp876.monmouth.com> > > > --- James Pryor wrote: > > Does anyone know of a site listing upcoming swapmeets? > > > > I'm interested mainly in the midwest area. > > The best resource I know is the ARRL - http://www.arrl.com/hamfests.html > > You can search by region or State. > > > Dayton Hamvention? > > http://www.hamvention.org/ > > > Trenton Computerfest? > > Dunno... never been. > > -ethan > Used to be the greatest show around... It's fallen on hard times over the past years -- far to pc centric in the flea market these days. Bill From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Feb 23 19:13:38 2000 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Thrift store finds... References: Message-ID: <001601bf7e64$62e3f840$d3711fd1@default> Great finds !!! I too look for the Mac clone items which are hard to find. A friend did pick up a Power Computing Power100 for me at a thrift store for $10. It works great. ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 4:18 PM Subject: Thrift store finds... > Book day today...I passed up 15 books I would have liked to have but was > too stingy to shell out the $$$ for. What I did pick up is: > > Electronic data Processing, E. Wainright Martin, 1961. > > Intel Microprocessor and Peripheral Handbook, vol.2, 1987. > > 68000 Assembly Language Programming, Kane/Hawkins/Leventhal, 1981. > > Motorola MC68020 User's Manual, 1984. > > > I also grabbed a couple of genuine Apple mousepads and a Macally clone > keyboard for $2. They also had an HP terminal keyboard, but no terminal. > I'm keeping my eyes open... > > > Cheers, > > Aaron > > From oliv555 at arrl.net Wed Feb 23 19:37:11 2000 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (Nick Oliviero) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets References: <38B46081.A9EE2012@wi.net> Message-ID: <38B48B47.6D00FE97@arrl.net> James Pryor wrote: > Does anyone know of a site listing upcoming swapmeets? > Does anyone know when the Foothill (Palo Alto) meet comes off of its winter hiatus? I'd like to get to the seasons opening event. For those interested in SoCal events try: www.ac6v.com/pageag.html Thanks, Nick From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Feb 23 22:24:40 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets In-Reply-To: Nick Oliviero's message of "Wed, 23 Feb 2000 19:37:11 -0600" References: <38B46081.A9EE2012@wi.net> <38B48B47.6D00FE97@arrl.net> Message-ID: <200002240424.UAA68405@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Nick Oliviero wrote: > Does anyone know when the Foothill (Palo Alto) meet comes off of > its winter hiatus? I'd like to get to the seasons opening event. If past years are any guide, I'd guess it would be 11 March. (2nd Saturday of the month, March through October.) -Frank McConnell From KB9VU at aol.com Thu Feb 24 06:00:51 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets Message-ID: <54.191a159.25e67773@aol.com> Dayton is May 19, 20 and 21 From west at tseinc.com Thu Feb 24 06:47:18 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Mail servers changes (INFO) Message-ID: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> Greetings; We have recently made changes to our mail servers here that may possibly affect some list users. In our ongoing effort to limit SPAM, our mail servers were recently configured to utilitize the MAPS RBL, DUL, and RSS databases (see www.mail-abuse.org for details). Entities that send spam typically make use of mail servers that are improperly configured in such a way as to allow relaying (ie. they are "open relays"). This means that these problem mail servers are often used to bounce mail off of and redistribute spam. Our mail servers have been configured to properly reject mail that is neither from or to a "local" address for many years. However, if our users (or any domains we host, including classiccmp.org) are on the spammers mailing list we have not been able to reject that spam in the past because the target address was both valid and local. By utilizing MAPS, any inbound mail is checked to see if it originated from a system or network that is known to be an open relay - if so, the message is rejected. Thus not only are we not an open relay, but we will refuse to accept or send mail that is from or to any system that is an open relay. That is the function of RBL and RSS; DUL is a blacklist of non-open relays that are however known originators of spam. You can check the above URL for details, but the basic gist is that when anyone on the internet receives junk mail via an open relay, they can submit the open relay's IP address to the MAPS database. The MAPS folks will test the server and if problematic they'll contact the administrator for that system and ask them to fix their open relay. If they do not fix the system within 5 days, they are added to the maps database. Once the administrator fixes the open relay their system is retested by MAPS and if compliant it is removed from the database. Our mail servers will not accept mail from or deliver mail to any system in the MAPS database. You can tell if you've encountered this by your message being returned to you with a note clearly stating that your message was rejected due to RBL, DUL, or open-relays. As you may gather, this does open the possibility of "throwing the baby out with the bath water". If your ISP has an open relay, we will not accept your mail. In this case you need to call your ISP and ask them to fix their mail server security deficiency. If one of your ISP's other customers is a source of spam, it is somewhat possible your ISP will be blocked (which albeit unfairly blocks you). This generally isn't much of a problem because most ISP's are very responsive to requests from MAPS. After weighing these issues we decided that there's no reason that our servers should have to converse with other servers that are known to be insecure or frequent sources of spam. We really really really dislike spam, and feel that this action is wholly appropriate. Regards, Jay West From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Feb 24 07:35:29 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000224053529.0094a200@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 06:47 24-02-2000 -0600, you wrote: >Greetings; > >We have recently made changes to our mail servers here that may possibly >affect some list users. In our ongoing effort to limit SPAM, our mail >servers were recently configured to utilitize the MAPS RBL, DUL, and RSS >databases (see www.mail-abuse.org for details). Good news, Jay, thanks much for the update. FWIW, I wholly agree with this course of action. In fact, I plan to configure my own mail server(s) in a similar way (if USWorst ever gets their act together and gets DSL out here!) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Feb 24 07:44:26 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Soldering to PCB traces? Message-ID: <13526256195.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I have here a perfectly good SCSI device I'd like to use, it's just that the +12V pin in the power connector has broken off. Can I just solder another pin right on the trace on the PCB, or is there some sealer over the traces? (Or anything else I should know about?) ------- From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Feb 24 07:56:11 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: FW: MicroVAX II hardware available Message-ID: <61eabs4v5nblcnf48amr2bdi726iiijki0@4ax.com> Found on Usenet. Anyone in or near the Czech republic want to do a rescue? (Hey, one never knows!) Reply to sender directly if interested. -=-=- -=-=- From: "lm" Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: MicroVAX II for sale Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:34:54 +0100 Organization: Compaq Computer Corp. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <893c1q$3je$1@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 16.193.136.44 X-Trace: mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com 951399290 3694 16.193.136.44 (24 Feb 2000 13:34:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Feb 2000 13:34:50 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: news.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!sdd.hp.com!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsgate.tandem.com!mailint03.im.hou.compaq.com!not-for-mail Xref: news.jps.net comp.os.vms:8076 Dear Sir, I recieved data from one small company in our region in Czech Rep., which is selling their computers. This computers are eight years old and it`s MicroVAX II with spare part. They are looking for a customer, that wants buy this MicroVAX II or spare parts. Below you can find part numbers of this spare parts : 2 x TU81E-DB 3000 MASS-STORAGE 4 x RA82-ED 3261 RA82 622MB 14 inch SDI-DISKS 1 x KDA50-QA 3452 KDA50 MICROVAX2/PDP11 TO RA-DISKS Q-BUS CONTR. 1 x TK70-AA 3360 TF/K70 296MB, 90KB/S (NON)/DSSI DLT TAPE-DRIVE - 5.25" CARTRIDGE TAPE DRIVE WITH TK5 1 x TQK70-AA 3360 TF/K70 296MB, 90KB/S (NON)/DSSI DLT TAPE-DRIVE - Q22 TMSCP CNTLR FOR TK70-AA,30" CAB 1 x DHQ11-M 5456 DHQ11/ 8 LINE ASYNC COMM CTLR 1 x KA630-AA 2450 MicroVAX II - QUAD Q22 MICROVAX CPU MODULE: CPU,F 1 x MS630-AA 2450 MicroVAX II - 1 MB MEM EXP FOR KA630,DUAL HEIGHT 1 x DELQA-M 5460 DELQA/ COMM CTLR ETH TO Q-BUS - DEC ETHERNET QBUS ADAPTOR If you have interest about this offer, please contact Mr. Holan tel.: ++420-602-239252 or e-mail : DECOMP@email.cz or ludek.mrkva@compaq.com Best Regards Ludek Mrkva -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 24 08:57:42 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: <200002241358.OAA15140@mail2.siemens.de> > We have recently made changes to our mail servers here that may possibly > affect some list users. In our ongoing effort to limit SPAM, our mail > servers were recently configured to utilitize the MAPS RBL, DUL, and RSS > databases (see www.mail-abuse.org for details). > [...] (ie. they are "open relays"). [...] > [...] We really really really dislike spam, and feel that this action is > wholly appropriate. First of all, I realy apreciate your efforts to reduce SPAM, and I feel that choosing your system was a real good isea. Just, I have a bad feeling about droping esential parts of free networking - the shareing of resources. Only because some Jerks missuse them. It's like puting an expiration date on the driver licence and ask for renewal just because some guys like to drive slow on the left lane. Or to ban free speech just because some idiots don't know eht hey say ? Hmm I guess I have a hard time to tell my view in English. I just feel bad about the very basic idea. Gruss H. Testing 1, 2, 3 :) -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/VCFe http://www.homecomputer.de/VCFe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 24 08:08:07 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (J.R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: test Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000224090807.007ca320@mailhost.intellistar.net> test William Roberts Certified TCP/IP Network Analyst ---------------------------------------------- IntelliSTAR(sm) Exclusive Provider of Internet LifeCycle Services(sm) http://www.intellistar.net - mailto:willr@intellistar.net 407-206-0788 - 407-206-0826 FAX Providing Residence for Professionals on the Internet(sm), Est. 1995 ---------------------------------------------- From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Feb 24 08:12:24 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Soldering to PCB traces? In-Reply-To: <13526256195.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000224061224.0094a1c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 05:44 24-02-2000 -0800, you wrote: >I have here a perfectly good SCSI device I'd like to use, it's just that >the +12V pin in the power connector has broken off. Can I just solder another >pin right on the trace on the PCB, or is there some sealer over the traces? >(Or anything else I should know about?) There may be solder mask (easily scraped off), but beneath it you should just be dealing with regular tinned copper. Be sure to make a solid connection! The +12V lead in most disk drives supplies the spindle motor, and that means lots of milliamps (or outright amps in many cases). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Thu Feb 24 08:35:55 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Computer/Ham Swapmeets In-Reply-To: <38B48B47.6D00FE97@arrl.net> Message-ID: <000201bf7ed4$763710b0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Nick Oliviero said: > Does anyone know when the Foothill... Did somebody say Foothill?? Found these references: Silicon Valley Surplus Sources v1.8 http://www.kce.com/junk.htm Good stores list, has a link to Foothill (don't use it, outdated) but Also has a link to the following (use it): Bruce Lane's (Sunny) California Swaps and Stores Page http://www.bluefeathertech.com/technoid/calswap.html Has a Huge entry for Foothill. John A. From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Feb 24 08:44:23 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Masstor data cartridges Message-ID: Hi all I just found 3 packages of Masstor data cartridges. They are cylindrical about 2 1/2 inches in diameter, about 4 inches long and look to be covered with some sort of oxide surface. They are hollow and have a kind of snap in connector on one end. I have examined the Web and the only references I find are for large mass storage devices for supercomputer and particle accelerator labs. I seem to remember, from some movie, some sort of robot arm storage device that picked cylindrical cartridges out of a honeycomb structure and inserted them in to a reader/writer. Very large storage, about 360 GB, late 80's early 90's time frame. Any information would be approciated Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From classiccmp at mrynet.com Thu Feb 24 00:58:53 2000 From: classiccmp at mrynet.com (Classic Computer Mailing List) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: Mail servers changes (INFO) Message-ID: <200002241458.GAA97476@mrynet.com> Hans Franke wrote: > > > We have recently made changes to our mail servers here that may possibly > > affect some list users. In our ongoing effort to limit SPAM, our mail > > servers were recently configured to utilitize the MAPS RBL, DUL, and RSS > > databases (see www.mail-abuse.org for details). > > [...] (ie. they are "open relays"). [...] > > [...] We really really really dislike spam, and feel that this action is > > wholly appropriate. > > First of all, I realy apreciate your efforts to reduce SPAM, > and I feel that choosing your system was a real good isea. > > Just, I have a bad feeling about droping esential parts of > free networking - the shareing of resources. Only because > some Jerks missuse them. It's like puting an expiration > date on the driver licence and ask for renewal just because > some guys like to drive slow on the left lane. Or to ban > free speech just because some idiots don't know eht hey say ? I wholeheartedly support this MAPS RBL, et al, blocking. The simple fact-of-the-matter is, open relays are wrong. They are the result of bad administration and serve no purpose other than to provide spammers the mechanism to operate anonymously. Performing this SPAM blocking not only protects the subscribers of a list from the resultant abuse of mismanaged mail servers, it forces legitimate operators of mail systems to properly administrate their machines. If a subscriber finds themselves receiving reject responses to their submissions, they should receive within the reject reason a reference to the URL for the service which has listed them or their mail relay as a SPAM source or Open Relay. The submitter should either correct their local problem, or notify their ISP or mail server administration of the issue. The SPAM/anti-relay database servers all provide for quick and fair consideration for removal from these lists once the blocking issue is resolved. To say that this will "ban free speech" is totally unwarranted. There is absolutely no reason for an open relay EXCEPT to facilitate spam. The InterNet is much too sophisticated for any claim of necessity for such a facility. Anonymity is not a factor in Free Speech. I applaud this action, and encourage everyone with the ability to have their mail agents interract with the MAPS RBL, and other databases, to fully support and integrate this spam-blocking service. Respectfully, Scott G. Taylor -- Scott G. Akmentins-Taylor InterNet: staylor@mrynet.com MRY Systems staylor@mrynet.lv (Skots Gregorijs Akmentins-Teilors -- just call me "Skots") ----- Labak miris neka sarkans ----- From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Feb 24 10:27:39 2000 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <200002241458.GAA97476@mrynet.com> Message-ID: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> > > > We have recently made changes to our mail servers here that may possibly > > > affect some list users. In our ongoing effort to limit SPAM, our mail > > > servers were recently configured to utilitize the MAPS RBL, DUL, and RSS > > > databases (see www.mail-abuse.org for details). > > > [...] (ie. they are "open relays"). [...] > > > [...] We really really really dislike spam, and feel that this action is > > > wholly appropriate. > > First of all, I realy apreciate your efforts to reduce SPAM, > > and I feel that choosing your system was a real good idea. > > Just, I have a bad feeling about droping esential parts of > > free networking - the shareing of resources. Only because > > some Jerks missuse them. It's like puting an expiration > > date on the driver licence and ask for renewal just because > > some guys like to drive slow on the left lane. Or to bann > > free speech just because some idiots don't know what they say ? > I wholeheartedly support this MAPS RBL, et al, blocking. > The simple fact-of-the-matter is, open relays are wrong. They are > the result of bad administration and serve no purpose other than > to provide spammers the mechanism to operate anonymously. > Performing this SPAM blocking not only protects the subscribers of > a list from the resultant abuse of mismanaged mail servers, it forces > legitimate operators of mail systems to properly administrate their > machines. What's proper or not is a matter of opinion, and in my mind open relays are a basic part of the mail system. > To say that this will "ban free speech" is totally unwarranted. > There is absolutely no reason for an open relay EXCEPT to facilitate > spam. The InterNet is much too sophisticated for any claim of > necessity for such a facility. Anonymity is not a factor in Free > Speech. Two things: Fisrt if you go up there and read again, I didn't say this will bann free speech, I did it compare to that issue, since it is related. But I can agree - in the very last consequence it is exacty that. Any action that is able to supress a single voice will do so and is therefore to avoide at all circumstances. And restricting access is one of them. The net has proven that it can handle trouble without influence and without building up controll structures etc. THings like the UDP http://www.stopspam.org/usenet/faqs/udp.html work quite fine without seting up general barriers. And no 'propper' configuration will ever stop SPAM - maybe reduce the likelyness, but I'm not willing to pay the price. All you need is a series of small 'improving' steps to jump the cliff. Abuse will exist as long as man exists, but here are more ways to handle this stuff. Sorry for the rant, but it just touches some very basic ideas of mine. Servus Hans P.S.: Great to have list members from .lv :) I hope to have again time to visit your county this year. -- VCF Europa am 29./30. April 2000 in Muenchen http://www.vintage.org/VCFe http://www.homecomputer.de/VCFe From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Wed Feb 23 19:32:01 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:51 2005 Subject: HP 9816 Re: I found an HP150 (model 45851A?)--how do I make it work? References: <"Peter Pachla"'s message of "Mon, 7 Feb 2000 02:25:18 -0000"><200001262244218.SM00188@kernst><3.0.1.16.20000205094123.3d7f0a9c@mailhost.intellistar.net><048001bf7119$3c120c00$91d993c3@proteus><3.0.1.16.20000207100119.3e47fa9a@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.20000222085042.3c0f02b0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <000001bf7ee3$fad98aa0$8e9493c3@proteus> Hi Joe, >....a 9816 sitting on top of a HP 9121 or 9122 disk drive.... Had a look, unfortunately that terminal looks nothing at all like the one I was thinking of. Thanks for the pointer though. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 24 10:26:22 2000 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Soldering to PCB traces? References: <13526256195.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <38B55BAE.EEC871AF@rain.org> "Daniel A. Seagraves" wrote: > > I have here a perfectly good SCSI device I'd like to use, it's just that > the +12V pin in the power connector has broken off. Can I just solder another > pin right on the trace on the PCB, or is there some sealer over the traces? > (Or anything else I should know about?) Aside from Bruce's comments, I would add that you need to make sure there is no stress placed on the trace after soldering. The bond strength of the copper to the laminate is not very great, and it is quite possible to pull the trace off. From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Feb 24 10:41:44 2000 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Mail servers changes (INFO) References: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> Jay West wrote: > > Greetings; > > We have recently made changes to our mail servers here that may possibly > affect some list users. In our ongoing effort to limit SPAM, our mail > servers were recently configured to utilitize the MAPS RBL, DUL, and RSS > databases (see www.mail-abuse.org for details). > > Entities that send spam typically make use of mail servers that are > improperly configured in such a way as to allow relaying (ie. they are "open > relays"). This means that these problem mail servers are often used to > bounce mail off of and redistribute spam. Our mail servers have been > configured to properly reject mail that is neither from or to a "local" > address for many years. However, if our users (or any domains we host, > including classiccmp.org) are on the spammers mailing list we have not been > able to reject that spam in the past because the target address was both > valid and local. By utilizing MAPS, any inbound mail is checked to see if it > originated from a system or network that is known to be an open relay - if > so, the message is rejected. Thus not only are we not an open relay, but we > will refuse to accept or send mail that is from or to any system that is an > open relay. That is the function of RBL and RSS; DUL is a blacklist of > non-open relays that are however known originators of spam. > > You can check the above URL for details, but the basic gist is that when > anyone on the internet receives junk mail via an open relay, they can submit > the open relay's IP address to the MAPS database. The MAPS folks will test > the server and if problematic they'll contact the administrator for that > system and ask them to fix their open relay. If they do not fix the system > within 5 days, they are added to the maps database. Once the administrator > fixes the open relay their system is retested by MAPS and if compliant it is > removed from the database. Our mail servers will not accept mail from or > deliver mail to any system in the MAPS database. You can tell if you've > encountered this by your message being returned to you with a note clearly > stating that your message was rejected due to RBL, DUL, or open-relays. > > As you may gather, this does open the possibility of "throwing the baby out > with the bath water". If your ISP has an open relay, we will not accept your > mail. In this case you need to call your ISP and ask them to fix their mail > server security deficiency. If one of your ISP's other customers is a source > of spam, it is somewhat possible your ISP will be blocked (which albeit > unfairly blocks you). This generally isn't much of a problem because most > ISP's are very responsive to requests from MAPS. After weighing these issues > we decided that there's no reason that our servers should have to converse > with other servers that are known to be insecure or frequent sources of > spam. We really really really dislike spam, and feel that this action is > wholly appropriate. > > Regards, > > Jay West I don't believe in RBL's etc. to combat spammers. I prefer a baseball bat. They don't learn anything from it, they're too goddam stupid, but it makes me feel better. Seriously, there are valid reasons to use or offer an open relay, and there are other technical means to deal with spam, which are improving with time. The MAPS RBL throws the baby out with the bathwater, and smacks of moral cowardice, hypocracy bolstering the egos of the net.nazis pushing it on everyone, to boot. I feel that strongly about it. I'd much rather let my mail system filter the spam out than have my options restricted by a pack of dissimulating busybodies, whose motives I question when all their actions appear to be dirty work designed to artificially bolster the hegemony of the big ISPs. Nevertheless, it's not my list, and it's up to you, Jay, as the administrator, to run it as you see fit. I implore you, though, NOT to use the DUL, at least, as this just flat out discriminates against those of us who are forced by circumstance to run our mail servers on dial-up dynamic IPs. No one has to complain to anyone that you have spammed. The DUL simply collects all the known major ISP dynamic IP ranges preemptively. This just isn't fair. They hide this in the fine print, and then pass the blame to you, the sysadmin. (Oh, WE didn't block your mail, complain to Jay West. (How, if he's blocking your mail?)) I've lost out on at least one multi-thousand dollar deal because of this nonsense. How Vixie lets his name be used for this crap is beyond me. If you were trying to generate as much tension and animosity amongst users and administrators as possible, you couldn't do a better job. Doesn't anyone else see what's wrong with this picture? It's not fair to me, you, or the average list reader, no matter how much mealy-mouthed propaganda we're all fed. My intention is not to start flames. I'd go to n.a.n.a.e for that. I realize that mine is not a popular opinion- it's totally against the recieved wisdom from the net.gods and issue-milking politicians- but it's a valid one, and I had to put my 2 cents in. Sincerely, James B. DiGriz From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 24 11:00:07 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Soldering to PCB traces? In-Reply-To: <38B55BAE.EEC871AF@rain.org> Message-ID: > Aside from Bruce's comments, I would add that you need to make sure there is > no stress placed on the trace after soldering. The bond strength of the > copper to the laminate is not very great, and it is quite possible to pull > the trace off. You may have to scrape the solder mask off to get a good connection, use minimal heat. When done clean well and it's not a bad idea to put a drop of epoxy on the area and maybe the back of the connector (where the pin goes through the board) to support it. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 24 11:17:19 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: > My intention is not to start flames. I'd go to n.a.n.a.e for that. I > realize that mine is not a popular opinion- it's totally against the > recieved wisdom from the net.gods and issue-milking politicians- but > it's a valid one, and I had to put my 2 cents in. > > Sincerely, > James B. DiGriz My $.02. I Have used the same ISP for over 7 years and the username is well worn but every time there is a security hole or some list also echos to to the newsgroups I get spammed to death. I get tired of updating procmail to get rid of UCE and Pornspam! It's so bad that I've put some domains in there so if someone send me legitimate mail I don't see it. Now I'm on some dammed opt-inbroacasts list that I didn't ask for and I don't think 12-15 spams (not including duplicates) is acceptable. ANYTHING that makes if harder for spammers is fine by me. I don't think I have to be burdened with the load of filtering that crap or doing maintenance on it because some spammer things it's a good thing. Servers are private property, Someone owns it, pays for the juice and while it's reasonable to support some free activity there is a point where stopping misuse and outright abuse of the server is not unreasonable. If I were on the net I'd be mighty PO'd if someone were using the server for profit (transport of advertizing) and not sharing the cost of the hardware and admin time. Allison From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 24 12:28:57 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Soldering to PCB traces? In-Reply-To: <13526256195.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000224132857.3ecff5b8@mailhost.intellistar.net> Dan, None of us have any way of knowing there is sealer over the traces. You'll have to look for yourself. Scrape it with a sharp knife and see if you get copper or a sealer. IMO it's not a good idea to solder the pin to the trace, there's just too much leverage on a pin to expect it to hold. I'd just solder a wire to the trace and solder the other end to the pin and then plug the pin into it's mating socket and let it hang free. Be sure and insulate everything. Joe At 05:44 AM 2/24/00 -0800, you wrote: >I have here a perfectly good SCSI device I'd like to use, it's just that >the +12V pin in the power connector has broken off. Can I just solder another >pin right on the trace on the PCB, or is there some sealer over the traces? >(Or anything else I should know about?) >------- > From pat at transarc.ibm.com Thu Feb 24 11:39:06 2000 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: IBM 4381 92E on eBay Message-ID: See http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=267844859 --Pat. From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Feb 24 11:42:28 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: (OT) Re: Mail servers changes (INFO) References: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <38B56D84.F9916279@mainecoon.com> "James B. DiGriz" wrote: [stuff deleted] > Nevertheless, it's not my list, and it's up to you, Jay, as the > administrator, to run it as you see fit. I implore you, though, NOT to > use the DUL, at least, as this just flat out discriminates against those > of us who are forced by circumstance to run our mail servers on dial-up > dynamic IPs. No one has to complain to anyone that you have spammed. The > DUL simply collects all the known major ISP dynamic IP ranges > preemptively. This just isn't fair. They hide this in the fine print, > and then pass the blame to you, the sysadmin. (Oh, WE didn't block your > mail, complain to Jay West. (How, if he's blocking your mail?)) I've > lost out on at least one multi-thousand dollar deal because of this > nonsense. In our case, on advise of corporate counsel, we've actually relaxed our anti-smap measures somewhat. We don't have a reason to relay, so we don't, and we still honor RBL, but we've tossed everything else. It's a long and debatable argument, but in essence we've been told that deciding to accept or reject messages based on origin compromises our common carrier status and could effectively make us liable if a downstream user was doing something illegal. Remember, the law, particularly in the US, doesn't really care if something is technically practical; once we demonstrate that we can filter messages in *any* fashion it's trivial to be found liable for a failure to filter in *every* fashion, particularly in a civil action. We decided that no matter how remote the risk we didn't want to be on the hook for some pedophile's on-line activities. Interestingly, the opinion was that it's okay to filter *on behalf of the user*, i.e., if the *user* tells us to filter the mail (or constructs their own filters) then we're off the hook, in the same fashion that calling number block/anonymous caller block can be implemented by the telcos without affecting their CC status. So now we're cooking up a scheme to allow not-terribly-technical users to set procmail filters. Chris -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From west at tseinc.com Thu Feb 24 11:44:22 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Mail servers changes (INFO) References: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <007a01bf7eee$ca01e020$d402a8c0@tse.com> In response to one or two people who voiced complaints about MAPS. First, one or two people said there are valid reasons for running a mail server as an open relay. *BS*. That's not just silly, that's ludicrous. There is no reason to configure your mail server as an open relay unless you are specifically intending to allow SPAM/UCE. Any possible scenario that you can come up with as to why a mail server should be an open relay can easily be addressed with other methods that were specifically designed for those cases. As a matter of fact, most any mail server software is preconfigured by default to disallow relaying (nowadays). Second, I am not keeping anyone who wants to operate an open relay from doing so. They are perfectly free to do it. However, *I* am not obligated to talk to their mail server and put myself at risk. To take the argument to silly levels to illustrate the point. Let's say someone chooses to configure their mail server so that every inbound and outbound piece of email gets a virus attached to it. Fine - I'll defend their right to do that. But I will also defend my right to not converse with their server. I'm not saying folks can't run open relays - I'm just saying I don't have to allow my servers to come in contact with them. Third, the above argument isn't quite as silly as it sounds. You think SPAM isn't on the same level as virii? When spam traffic isn't at denial of service levels, it costs us hundreds of manhours of support. I can't begin to tell you how many calls we get each day from people who have received so much SPAM (or a small amount but the spam has big attachments) that they think their mail isn't working when in fact they're trying to download 200 messages over a slow 33.6k link. We have to go in and manually clean out their mailboxes for them. Not to mention the amount of processor, memory, and disk space it chews up on my servers, or network bandwidth that I have to pay a kings ransom for. And then when the spam hits denial of service levels, it directly affects both my and my customers livelihoods. Mail servers drives fill up or processor usage tops out... etc. etc. and the servers halt. Then my customers can't get the email service they're paying for and my image suffers. Fourth, DUL does not indiscriminately single out users. Only specific addresses that have proven to send (not one or two, but) hundreds of bulk spam and that refused to cease doing so are listed. DUL does not reject mail just because someone has a dynamic IP on their mail server. That argument is plain false. Lastly - I absolutely hate to say this (and do so reluctantly) - and anyone here who knows me knows I'm am not a dictatorial pushy force-my-will type person. I am not a "net-nazi"; many of you recall how hesitant I was to make any decision on my own (re: the reply address argument of several weeks ago) regarding the list. However, in this case I'm truely *VERY* sorry to say apologetically - you don't have a choice. If it was just the list, that'd be a different story but when it affects my entire service, that's my call to make. You are all welcome to discuss the merits/deficiencies of open relays, but our servers will continue to use MAPS. Respectfully, Jay West From mgregory at vantageresearch.com Thu Feb 24 11:37:20 2000 From: mgregory at vantageresearch.com (Mark Gregory) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Nice article in Wired 8.03 on "Retroactivism" Message-ID: <00bd01bf7eed$cdc5bb60$6a4be4cf@vax.vantageresearch.com> There's a good article in this month's Wired on what they call "retroactivism" - people using trailing edge computers in preference to the latest Wintel box - for all the reasons we're familiar with: stability, well-understood O/Ses, nostalgia, etc. The VCF gets some mention, and several classiccompers (notably Allison Parent) are quoted. A good, balanced article that doesn't have the faintly mocking tone of that other recent article (in the magazine with Rosie the Robot on the cover). Cheers, Mark. From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Feb 24 12:11:36 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Masstor data cartridges In-Reply-To: ; from mmcfadden@cmh.edu on Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 08:44:23AM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20000224131136.A12954@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 08:44:23AM -0600, McFadden, Mike wrote: > I seem to remember, from some movie, some sort of robot > arm storage device that picked cylindrical cartridges out of a honeycomb > structure and inserted them in to a reader/writer. Very large storage, > about 360 GB, late 80's early 90's time frame. > Any information would be approciated I can't shed any light except to say that I've heard the same thing. The person who told me about them (and yes this would have been mid/late 80s) had worked for a large IBM mainframe installation (Oklahoma dept. of transportation IIRC, I can't believe there's so much computing to do for that but who knows, he said they had a bunch of 3081s), and he specifically mentioned the robotic picker. I *think* he said the actual storage medium was some kind of filament contained inside the can but I could be wrong. John Wilson D Bit From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Thu Feb 24 12:31:05 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: (OT) Re: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <38B56D84.F9916279@mainecoon.com>; from chris@mainecoon.com on Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 09:42:28AM -0800 References: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> <38B56D84.F9916279@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20000224133105.B12954@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 09:42:28AM -0800, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Interestingly, the opinion was that it's okay to filter *on behalf > of the user*, i.e., if the *user* tells us to filter the mail (or > constructs their own filters) then we're off the hook, OK then! Jay -- as a user of this list, I request that you go all-out and put in whatever spam blocks you can. I'm constantly deluged in spam from every side so anything to filter even one possible source is OK by me. UUCP and Bitnet are long gone, the net isn't a cooperative bunch of non-profit institutions scratching each other's backs to get the packets through any more. Every step of the way is paid for by the people using it and it's perfectly reasonable for them to refuse to allow their systems to be used to generate someone else's advertising, *especially* when the intent is not only to steal services, but to hide the thief's identity so they won't be held accountable. This crap about opt-in mailing lists is especially annoying. I've never opted into one of these things in my life, in fact every time anyone asks for my email address when I'm making an order or whatever, I specifically tell them *not* to put me on any mailing lists. But these days most of my spam contains an accusation that I *asked* for it -- I suppose they think this is some kind of legal loophole, they can play dumb and say they *thought* I opted in. I even got one of these from PLX Tech recently, you'd think a reputable IC manufacturer would know better... And these days I keep my fax machine turned off too -- seriously 9 out of 10 faxes I was getting were commercial spam, even though that's a direct violation of the FCC rules (which say that you can't send unsolicited commercial faxes to anyone unless you have an established business relationship with them). Apparently these bozos see my print ads and figure that the reason I thousands per year for the ads is actually because I'm just itching to buy their piles of used monitors, and I want to let them use *my* printer and ink cartridge to print their ads. Usually they leave off the header giving the originating fax number, which is also illegal. What happened to the good old days when this crap only came by snail mail and cost nothing! John Wilson D Bit From rhblake at bigfoot.com Thu Feb 24 12:58:04 2000 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Need docs for Lemark 4033-001 token ring print server Message-ID: <38B57F3C.D99BE9F6@bigfoot.com> I have 5 Lexmark type 4033-001 print servers for token ring coming to install on a small network for a non-profit group but I don't seem to be able to locate any docs on Lexmark's site. Anyone either know of a URL for a text or PDF file, or have one they could photocopy and mail (with reimbursement of course)??? Russ Blakeman Clarkson, KY From elvey at hal.com Thu Feb 24 13:20:48 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: IBM 4381 92E on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200002241920.LAA02535@civic.hal.com> Pat Barron wrote: > See http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=267844859 > > --Pat. > Wow, a full mini. Now if I can only convince PG&E ( local power Co. ) to run 480 3phase to my house. Dwight From cdenham at tgis.co.uk Thu Feb 24 15:21:35 2000 From: cdenham at tgis.co.uk (Christopher Denham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Xerox 3100 free uk In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000224090807.007ca320@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000224090807.007ca320@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: I have just been given a Xerox 3100 computer with 8 inch drive and hard drive , Its big its dirty and its heavy and its not the sort of thing that I collect , So if any body wants it before I drop it in a skip drop me an email at cdenham@tgis.co.uk south of England . Chris Denham From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 24 13:18:38 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Soldering to PCB traces? In-Reply-To: <13526256195.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Feb 24, 0 05:44:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1984 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000224/d590394a/attachment-0001.ksh From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Feb 24 15:46:00 2000 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: AT&T 3B2 model 310 and model 400 in Kansas City Message-ID: AT&T #B2 model 310 and Model 400 I just ran across these two machine along with some sort of AT&T external case that goes with them. The model 400 has a damaged case, I haven't looked inside. Rare, interesting, should I save them? I have read the 3B2 FAQ. Anybody else want them? Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 24 15:15:49 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) References: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> Message-ID: <20000224211549.16030.qmail@brouhaha.com> Hans wrote: > What's proper or not is a matter of opinion, and in my mind > open relays are a basic part of the mail system. Can you cite any legitimate use for a completely open relay? I can't think of any. Lacking such examples, I agree with Scott G. Taylor's statement: > The simple fact-of-the-matter is, open relays are wrong. I run a mail server myself, as no doubt do many other list members. I would *NEVER* configure one as an open relay. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 24 15:19:04 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: (OT) Re: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <38B56D84.F9916279@mainecoon.com> (message from Chris Kennedy on Thu, 24 Feb 2000 09:42:28 -0800) References: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> <38B56D84.F9916279@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20000224211904.16061.qmail@brouhaha.com> Chris Kennedy wrote: > we've been told that deciding to accept or reject messages based on origin > compromises our common carrier status Possibly. But only if you actually have common carrier status, or can make a credible claim that you should. Have they passed any law granting such status to ISPs? I'd think that would be big news, and I haven't heard of it. From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Feb 24 16:48:54 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: (OT) Re: Mail servers changes (INFO) References: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> <38B56D84.F9916279@mainecoon.com> <20000224211904.16061.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <38B5B556.1ECD27B0@mainecoon.com> Eric Smith wrote: > > Chris Kennedy wrote: > > we've been told that deciding to accept or reject messages based on origin > > compromises our common carrier status > > Possibly. But only if you actually have common carrier status, or can > make a credible claim that you should. Have they passed any law granting > such status to ISPs? I'd think that would be big news, and I haven't > heard of it. We and most other ISPs advance the argument that we are not responsible for the content which passes through our infrastructure, arguing that we are the bit-shipping analog to telcos -- and hence should have the same indemnification from acts of our subscribers which might be criminally or civilly actionable. Of course we add explicit indemnification language to our subscription agreements as well. Is there a legislative CC mandate? No. Has this argument been used successfully in court? According to counsel, yes. Would the argument be as effective if we demonstrate the ability to filter objectionable material on behalf of our subscribers but without their explicit direction or consent? Probably not, because the telcos don't do so. I'm not sure that I completely subscribe to that position, but we pay these people for their legal opinions because they're supposed to know more about telecommunications law than we do. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 24 17:28:57 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Card identification required. Message-ID: <20000224232857.71963.qmail@hotmail.com> I have just recently picked up a Tandy Color Computer 3 (which I have nicknamed "Spectrum") at a local thrift store. After opening it up, I found an internal card plugged into some connectors on the system board. The card does not look to be a Tandy add-on. The unknown board bears a name of "DISTO CANADA" & has 16 Mitsubishi M5M4256P chips on it. What is this card? Is it some sort of internal RAM expander or internal disk controller card? Any help would be more than welcome. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, Double FDD, GeoRAM 512, Okimate 20. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3. ____________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Feb 24 18:40:05 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: AT&T 3B2 model 310 and model 400 in Kansas City In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000224194005.4bc7a46a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Steve Robertson might be interested. I gave him my two 3B2 310s and a big pile of docs. Where are your's located. Joe At 03:46 PM 2/24/00 -0600, you wrote: >AT&T #B2 model 310 and Model 400 >I just ran across these two machine along with some sort of AT&T external >case that goes with them. The model 400 has a damaged case, I haven't >looked inside. Rare, interesting, should I save them? I have read the 3B2 >FAQ. Anybody else want them? >Mike >mmcfadden@cmh.edu > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 24 17:39:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Card identification required. In-Reply-To: <20000224232857.71963.qmail@hotmail.com> from "David Vohs" at Feb 24, 0 11:28:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 852 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000224/04438324/attachment-0001.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 24 17:42:50 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: (OT) Re: Mail servers changes (INFO) Message-ID: <200002242342.SAA26618@world.std.com> <> Possibly. But only if you actually have common carrier status, or can <> make a credible claim that you should. Have they passed any law grantin <> such status to ISPs? I'd think that would be big news, and I haven't <> heard of it. Common carrier status is often implied as part fo a generic communications service. I had to deal with this 30 years ago with RCC(radio common carrier) otherwise known as UHF repeaters. We were if anything indirectly responseable for FCC language mandates if not by law certainly by possible civil penelty. So if we had a customer that tended to run a little hard with a seven deadly dirty words it was a risk to us as well. So it was a condition of service or else... Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 24 17:11:02 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: (OT) Re: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <200002242342.SAA26618@world.std.com> (message from Allison J Parent on Thu, 24 Feb 2000 18:42:50 -0500 (EST)) References: <200002242342.SAA26618@world.std.com> Message-ID: <20000224231102.16907.qmail@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > Common carrier status is often implied as part fo a generic communications > service. I had to deal with this 30 years ago with RCC(radio common > carrier) otherwise known as UHF repeaters. We were if anything indirectly > responseable for FCC language mandates if not by law certainly by possible > civil penelty. So if we had a customer that tended to run a little hard > with a seven deadly dirty words it was a risk to us as well. So it was a > condition of service or else... If you were a Common Carrier, the material transmitted by your customers would not be your problem. If you had to police it, you were NOT a Common Carrier. From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Thu Feb 24 18:21:19 2000 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Card identification required. Message-ID: <20000225002119.14679.qmail@hotmail.com> >Those chips are 256K*1 DRAMs, so the card is a 512K memory card. My >guess >is that it's a close clone of the Tandy 512K RAM card (there >were several >such cards around when the CoCo 3 was in production), >and that it replaces >the standard 128K RAM on the CPU board (look >for 4 empty 18 pin sockets). > >You therefore have a 512K machine. > >-tony Wow!, I thought it to be a RAM expander, but I'd never thought it would be a 512K card. I'll check the sockets & see if they're empty. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Feb 24 19:55:38 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Masstor data cartridges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000224175414.0245cee0@mcmanis.com> Ahh yes, the waay cool IBM MSS system. Used a robotic arm to pull a cylinder that was then dumped into a reader and transferred _in bulk_ to an attached 3380 disk drive that then was treated like available DASD storage. Extremely cool, very big, and a kick to watch! --Chuck At 08:44 AM 2/24/00 -0600, you wrote: >Hi all >I just found 3 packages of Masstor data cartridges. They are cylindrical >about 2 1/2 inches in diameter, about 4 inches long and look to be covered >with some sort of oxide surface. They are hollow and have a kind of snap in >connector on one end. I have examined the Web and the only references I >find are for large mass storage devices for supercomputer and particle >accelerator labs. I seem to remember, from some movie, some sort of robot >arm storage device that picked cylindrical cartridges out of a honeycomb >structure and inserted them in to a reader/writer. Very large storage, >about 360 GB, late 80's early 90's time frame. >Any information would be approciated > >Mike >mmcfadden@cmh.edu From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Feb 24 20:39:47 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Masstor data cartridges References: <4.2.0.58.20000224175414.0245cee0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <38B5EB73.8C2EABCF@mainecoon.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > > Ahh yes, the waay cool IBM MSS system. Used a robotic arm to pull a > cylinder that was then dumped into a reader and transferred _in bulk_ to an > attached 3380 disk drive that then was treated like available DASD storage. > Extremely cool, very big, and a kick to watch! Did this use the same sort of technology as the '70s MSS? LBL had one attached via homespun hardware to a CDC channel controller that was in turn attached to a 6600. It was an amazing machine, used a robotic arm to select a rectangular container which it sucked up and shot through a Rube Goldbergesque collection of tubes to a reading station. It used rectangular pieces of film which were read optically. Standard equipment for operation of this thing was a broom, since it had an unhappy habit of puking the film bits all over the floor on a regular basis. It was eventually replaced by a robotic tape library (which promptly caught fire). -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Feb 24 22:02:32 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: (OT) Re: Mail servers changes (INFO) References: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> <38B56D84.F9916279@mainecoon.com> <20000224133105.B12954@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <38B5FED8.C625D3C4@idirect.com> >John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 09:42:28AM -0800, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > Interestingly, the opinion was that it's okay to filter *on behalf > > of the user*, i.e., if the *user* tells us to filter the mail (or > > constructs their own filters) then we're off the hook, > OK then! Jay -- as a user of this list, I request that you go all-out and > put in whatever spam blocks you can. Jerome Fine replies: Ditto!!! Please put in whatever spam blocks you can for me as well!! > What happened to the good old days when this crap only came by snail mail and > cost nothing! And cost the advertiser big dollars just for the postage. Now that is what I call an effective filter. In addition, there should be a requirement for reasonable SUBJECT/DATE/FROM/TO portions of every e-mail and any mass spam could easily be checked to see how many (almost) identical messages are being sent if the number of messages with the same "TO:" are being found - especially if the "TO:" is not a valid address to respond to. Finally, I have asked this question in the past. Will every message that includes an attachment have the attachment checked for a virus? In many case, I am loathe to open an attached file if I don't know the person who has sent the e-mail. On some rare occasions, even Netscape seems to send the e-mail as an attachment even though it was not expected. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Feb 24 22:14:30 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: (OT) Re: Mail servers changes (INFO) Message-ID: <200002250414.XAA19727@world.std.com> <> with a seven deadly dirty words it was a risk to us as well. So it was a <> condition of service or else... < Hi, Stopped by the scrapper today and found this: IBM 3742 Dual Data Station. There's not much left of it, so I grabbed the little nametag off it for my archaic weird stuff to decorate the walls collection, but I'm curious what it is. The only thing I could find (in German, no less) was a mention from 1975 about it having something to do with 8" disks and System/32. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vcf at siconic.com Thu Feb 24 23:22:02 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Software for sale (fwd) Message-ID: Here is someone with a bunch of classic to semi-classic software for sale. Please reply to the original sender. Reply-to: urdahl@telus.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 14:08:00 -0800 From: Hans and Sharon Urdahl To: vcf@vintage.org Subject: Software for sale Could you please let me know if there is a internet site where I could list these items Thank you. Inventory list of software: Quantity: Packard Bell MS-Dos 4.0 OPERATING 3 1 Combase (c) 1987 Data base communications inc. 8 New Tandy 1000 Cat.no.25-1504 technical referenc manual 1 Tandy 1000 Cat.no.25-1501 MS-Dos reference manual 5 Packard Bell MS-Dos 4.0 SHELL 1 SVGV-UTILITY (disk 1&2) 5" floppy 1 Racal Interlan, Diags and drives for ni 5210 ver 2.0 contains 158-0248-00 24 New Poly-XFR CP/M Comms communications for Rainbow 100 2 VISI CALC.instantly calulates elec.work sheet user's guide for APPLE II&II plus 48k 16 sector 3 AccPac. Accouts receivable 10 AccPac. Accounts payable 8 AccPac. General ledger and financing report 3 Zenith data systems Heath software 3 Olivetti software libary STK 286 5 new Olivetti MS-Dos pc 286 10 new Microsoft M Basic 86 basic interpreter for rainbow 100 4 Rainbow 100 cp/m-86/80 operating system 1 Rainbow 100 user kit 1 Diskette drive head cleaning kit FD-08 Series 2024 5 new Irish 5" floppy 1 Micom Philips 8" floppy 380 Flexible disk caddy for 8" floppy 33 Come Base user guide communication program for IBM PC 2 Packard Bell Modem 2400 BPS reference manual 2 Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Feb 25 01:20:23 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <38B55F48.9DAE91E2@dragonsweb.org> References: <00aa01bf7ec5$493488e0$d402a8c0@tse.com> Message-ID: I rambled on the messages so far, prepared to post pointed comments pro and con, and then I realized we don't get any spam on this list. Since the list changed to closed, you have to be a member to post, it has eliminated spam that wasn't even much of a problem before. As long as we don't have any active problems I see no reason for further comment. From rhudson at ix.netcom.com Fri Feb 25 02:46:24 2000 From: rhudson at ix.netcom.com (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Unknown IBM thingy whatsit References: <20000225044536.62930.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <38B64160.9D5B188E@ix.netcom.com> Will Jennings wrote: > Hi, > Stopped by the scrapper today and found this: IBM 3742 Dual Data Station. > There's not much left of it, so I grabbed the little nametag off it for my > archaic weird stuff to decorate the walls collection, but I'm curious what > it is. The only thing I could find (in German, no less) was a mention from > 1975 about it having something to do with 8" disks and System/32. > > Will J > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com At one point I worked for a Job Training program. In our part of the program we trained people to be keypunch operators. We used machine that were made by TAB corp and consisted of two keyboards, two 8" floppies and 1 CRT (which was displayed in two displays with a mirror arrangement). the two users would sit facing each other with the floppy drive on the right for each. Each with their own keyboard. The machine would accept data from the keyboard and "punch" it to the 8" drives, 80 collumns per record (I think). You could set it up much the same way you could setup a card punch machine (ie it could do alpha or numeric or duplicate fields based on a "programming" record.) It also had a function to compare typed against already entered records for verifacation. From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Feb 25 03:26:22 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Unknown IBM thingy whatsit Message-ID: <39.1aea12b.25e7a4be@aol.com> In a message dated 2/24/2000 8:55:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, xds_sigma7@hotmail.com writes: > IBM 3742 Dual Data Station. 1975 about it having something to do with 8" disks and System/32. A classic example of a huge plastic data entry workstation that resembled a desk for two operators with a couple of small IBM boards in it. 150 pounds of non recyclable plastic, IIRC. Two small 9"? mono monitors & two keyboards for two operators to enter data. Two original IBM 8" disk drives. It has been 10 years since I have seen one so I hope my memory is correct. It was a small business data entry station that could be better done with two terminals. I believe it could be used with the System one besides the /32. I also think you could hook up a printer directly. IBM made things large because it was expected of them. After all in 1975 it couldn't be a real computer peripheral or worth big bucks if it wasn't large. Very poor scrap. 60 Cubic feet of plastic garbage. It definitely is a collectable if complete and you have space for it. I doubt many were saved. The chassis stuck around because 4 of them would fill a dumpster. Paxton From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Feb 25 03:30:04 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Unknown IBM thingy whatsit Message-ID: In a message dated 2/25/2000 1:10:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, rhudson@ix.netcom.com writes: > 1 CRT (which was > displayed in two displays with a mirror arrangement). the two users would > sit > facing each other with the floppy drive on the right for each. Each with > their > own keyboard. I stand corrected. This is true. One monitor with mirrors to two displays. It has been a long time. It was made by IBM. Paxton From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Feb 25 09:32:59 2000 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Unknown IBM thingy whatsit Message-ID: <000225103259.256026d1@trailing-edge.com> >Stopped by the scrapper today and found this: IBM 3742 Dual Data Station. >There's not much left of it, so I grabbed the little nametag off it for my >archaic weird stuff to decorate the walls collection, but I'm curious what >it is. There may not be left of that particular unit, but the IBM 3740 series (of which the 3742 is a variant) lives on today in every PC clone. > The only thing I could find (in German, no less) was a mention from >1975 about it having something to do with 8" disks and System/32. In particular, every PC-clone uses a floppy disk format that's a very direct descendant of the IBM 3740 format. Change the modulation from FM to MFM, up the data rate, and that's all. And at least some of the PC FDC's will read a IBM 3740 format floppy (see the discussions from the past few years in comp.os.cpm about single-density capable FDC's). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From aek at spies.com Fri Feb 25 15:59:19 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <200002252159.NAA10478@spies.com> HP 2xxx stuff Just received this from someone who posted a paper tape punch on eBay. I asked if he had anything else. Someone on the East Coast may be able to work something out with him. "From: Craig Smith Reply-To: ip500@roanoke.infi.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Al Kossow Subject: Re: HP 2100 parts References: <200002251910.LAA28768@spies.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Al, No 2100 series stuff available but I do have a fair bit of 21MX and HP 1000 [series E and F] computers and pieces around. Also just hit the motherload on 2100 documentation----binders full! Am in the process of sorting it all out. What are you in need of and are you close enough to Roanoke for some heavy stuff. I've got a number of NICE rack cabinets and a bunch of the big floor model disc drives in storage and rack mount disc controllers. Also 2 or 3 of the 7970?? Reel to Reel data recorders [HEAVY!!]. Lots of 2640 terminals and some of the later terminals for the 3000 series. I'm cleaning out a warehouse full of stuff I recently bought and really am not sure of total numbers of stuff that will be available [or what else is in there] Every day is a new find. Let me know what your looking for and I'll do some digging. Regards, Craig " From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Feb 25 18:29:57 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Halooooo... Message-ID: <4.1.20000225162857.03c7d530@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Hmm, all this talk about anti-spam stuff and then suddenly "poof" I don't hear anything for hours. Wondering what happened.... --Chuck From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Feb 25 20:07:25 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff In-Reply-To: <200002252159.NAA10478@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000225210725.3b675c0c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi All, The owner is in Roanoke, Va. He's been selling^H^H^H^H^H^H^H listing a lot of HP stuff on E-bay. Most of it he knows nothing about and claims that it "appears to work". After some discussion with him, I found that "appears to work" means that the fan comes on but nothing else does! So watch out. Based on my conversations with him, I don't think he's interested in selling anything off of E-bay, unless maybe after it got no bids. He's listed a couple of HP 1000s, a HP 9825 and a HP 9845 that I know of. My $.02 worth, Joe At 01:59 PM 2/25/00 -0800, you wrote: >HP 2xxx stuff > >Just received this from someone who posted a paper tape punch on eBay. >I asked if he had anything else. Someone on the East Coast may be able >to work something out with him. > >"From: Craig Smith >Reply-To: ip500@roanoke.infi.net >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: Al Kossow >Subject: Re: HP 2100 parts >References: <200002251910.LAA28768@spies.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Hi Al, >No 2100 series stuff available but I do have a fair bit of 21MX and >HP 1000 [series E and F] computers and pieces around. Also just hit the >motherload on 2100 documentation----binders full! Am in the process of >sorting it all out. What are you in need of and are you close enough to >Roanoke for some heavy stuff. I've got a number of NICE rack cabinets >and a bunch of the big floor model disc drives in storage and rack mount >disc controllers. Also 2 or 3 of the 7970?? Reel to Reel >data recorders [HEAVY!!]. Lots of 2640 terminals and some of the later >terminals for the 3000 series. > >I'm cleaning out a warehouse full of stuff I recently bought and really >am not sure of total numbers of stuff that will be available [or what >else is in there] Every day is a new find. Let me know what your looking >for and I'll do some digging. > > Regards, Craig > >" > From dogas at leading.net Fri Feb 25 18:48:32 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <000f01bf7ff3$602ff780$ca646464@dogclient01> Hi everyone, What a cool day. I woke up to a beautiful Florida morning and hopped in the car and drove to Orlando and met Joe to 'hit the spots' (Thanks for comming out to play, Joe!) One stop yielded a Motorola EXORcisor chassis(woo hoo!), two ASR-32's with tape r/w er's , and a 20 slot crate based on a General Micro Systems 6502/6802/6809/z80 sbc/card (currently with the 6809 module installed. It has ports for pinter, i/o, rs232, and ieee-488) from circa 83 maybe...with other cards including a Smoke Signal Broadcasting DCB-4E, a Digalog Systems 64k mem,. a Digalog Systems T Buss Controller, and a few other ufo's. Anyone know anything about this one? Also obtained on the trip: a pdp 11/05 that has the front panel, an ICE sytem for Intel's 960/20, several boards with memory and a few with some Am2901 processors, and a Fourth Cartridge (and entire setup) for a Commie 64. I saw alot of interesting things that didn't come home with me (...yet... ;)) letsee.... The coolest was probably the Univac 1540. Never seen one before, it had a lot of dings but *GREAT* front panallage and full headdress. Wish someone would save that one. Something else I almost picked up was an Intel GUIO MCS-51 thingy that I'm sure will cause regret in time. Well, guess I'll go play... ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From aek at spies.com Fri Feb 25 19:42:57 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff Message-ID: <200002260142.RAA28148@spies.com> " Based on my conversations with him, I don't think he's interested in selling anything off of E-bay" My 'favorite' line from eBay sellers is "If you're interested in something, let me know and I'll list it on eBay" No, pinhead, you give me a price, and I say 'yes' or 'no' to it... From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Fri Feb 25 19:44:46 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F06AB51DD@ALFEXC5> Where's the UNIVAC? Is there any possibility of a rescue on it? -- Tony > ---------- > From: Mike[SMTP:dogas@leading.net] > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 7:48 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: A classic classiccmp day... > > Hi everyone, > > What a cool day. I woke up to a beautiful Florida morning and hopped in > the car and drove to Orlando and met Joe to 'hit the spots' (Thanks for > comming out to play, Joe!) > > One stop yielded a Motorola EXORcisor chassis(woo hoo!), two ASR-32's > with > tape r/w er's , and a 20 slot crate based on a General Micro Systems > 6502/6802/6809/z80 sbc/card (currently with the 6809 module installed. It > has ports for pinter, i/o, rs232, and ieee-488) from circa 83 > maybe...with > other cards including a Smoke Signal Broadcasting DCB-4E, a Digalog > Systems > 64k mem,. a Digalog Systems T Buss Controller, and a few other ufo's. > Anyone know anything about this one? > > Also obtained on the trip: a pdp 11/05 that has the front panel, an ICE > sytem for Intel's 960/20, several boards with memory and a few with some > Am2901 processors, and a Fourth Cartridge (and entire setup) for a Commie > 64. > > I saw alot of interesting things that didn't come home with me (...yet... > ;)) letsee.... The coolest was probably the Univac 1540. Never seen one > before, it had a lot of dings but *GREAT* front panallage and full > headdress. Wish someone would save that one. Something else I almost > picked up was an Intel GUIO MCS-51 thingy that I'm sure will cause regret > in > time. > > Well, guess I'll go play... > > ;) > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Feb 25 19:41:51 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: Halooooo... Message-ID: <200002260141.UAA02386@world.std.com> ; from aek@spies.com on Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 05:42:57PM -0800 References: <200002260142.RAA28148@spies.com> Message-ID: <20000225205607.C14587@alcor.concordia.ca> On Fri, Feb 25, 2000 at 05:42:57PM -0800, Al Kossow (aek@spies.com) wrote: > " Based on my conversations with him, I don't think he's > interested in selling anything off of E-bay" > > My 'favorite' line from eBay sellers is > > "If you're interested in something, let me know and I'll list > it on eBay" > > No, pinhead, you give me a price, and I say 'yes' or 'no' to it... Heh, no kidding. I've actually been pretty lucky with writing eBay sellers and saying "I don't do auctions, but I'll offer you $n". Especially with local stuff, where they get out of the waiting-for-payment and shipping hassles. -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From dogas at leading.net Fri Feb 25 20:08:19 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <003001bf7ffe$5c7ed560$ca646464@dogclient01> -----Original Message----- From: Eros, Anthony >Where's the UNIVAC? Is there any possibility of a rescue on it? > It's almost in Orlando, FL. I'd probably be available to help in a rescue attempt... ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Feb 25 21:26:21 2000 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000225210725.3b675c0c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > The owner is in Roanoke, Va. He's been selling^H^H^H^H^H^H^H listing a > lot of HP stuff on E-bay. Most of it he knows nothing about and claims > that it "appears to work". After some discussion with him, I found that > "appears to work" means that the fan comes on but nothing else does! So > watch out. Based on my conversations with him, I don't think he's > interested in selling anything off of E-bay, unless maybe after it got no > bids. He's listed a couple of HP 1000s, a HP 9825 and a HP 9845 that I > know of. Craig Smith is a decent guy - but computers are not his thing (_old_ radios are). Please, folks, not everyone that lists old computers on Ebay is part of the "6800 assembler coding"* crowd. Don't slam them too hard...they are just being honest with what they know. *Think back to an ancient thread. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Fri Feb 25 22:11:51 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff References: <200002260142.RAA28148@spies.com> Message-ID: <38B75287.E66FF899@roanoke.infi.net> Careful Al, You never know who's on the list server. I thought I was rather cordial in our conversation--never did the ebay subject come up and I did invite you to stop by and check out the heavy stuff-----as an aside, I've found ebay to be a great place to list stuff when you have no idea of its worth and/or desirability. As an antique radio guy I didn't have a clue what the early computer guys were after---ebay has provided a very quick education in the field. The invitation to stop by Roanoke and take a look remains open to anyone in the area---lots of HP stuff and the only way I've found to NOT be a "pinhead" about pricing is to drop it on ebay and let it rip. Regards, Craig Al Kossow wrote: > > " Based on my conversations with him, I don't think he's > interested in selling anything off of E-bay" > > My 'favorite' line from eBay sellers is > > "If you're interested in something, let me know and I'll list > it on eBay" > > No, pinhead, you give me a price, and I say 'yes' or 'no' to it... From Anthony.Eros at compaq.com Fri Feb 25 22:11:55 2000 From: Anthony.Eros at compaq.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F06AB51EF@ALFEXC5> Hmm... How big are we talking here? -- Tony > ---------- > From: Mike[SMTP:dogas@leading.net] > Reply To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 9:08 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: A classic classiccmp day... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eros, Anthony > > > >Where's the UNIVAC? Is there any possibility of a rescue on it? > > > > It's almost in Orlando, FL. I'd probably be available to help in a > rescue > attempt... ;) > > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Fri Feb 25 22:27:01 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff References: <3.0.1.16.20000225210725.3b675c0c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <38B75615.7CA9716F@roanoke.infi.net> Hi Joe, That's a little harsh don't you think??? In truth I knew nothing about that stuff when we exchanged email--but I'm learning fast [with a great deal of help from guys like you and your HP info pages!]. Fascinating subject. As an antique radio guy [mainly 1910-1925 Navy Shipboard Gear], I had never had any exposure to antique computer equipment. The most logical thing to do was test market some on ebay and see what happened. I NEVER put reserves or high starting prices on things--that's the whole point of letting things find a market price. I am also extremely careful when I describe and picture something on ebay. If I don't know, I SAY SO, and solicit comments from those more experienced in the field. The "So watch out" comment below is really not supported by the facts--my feedback on ebay has always been positive and all the guys who got HP stuff recently have been extremely pleased with it. [at pretty reasonable prices too I might add---the 9825 went for maybe $35, 9845 $45, 1000E with a bunch of cards $330] I'll repeat my offer to Al, if anyone is nearby Roanoke and wants to take a look---drop me a line. Regards, Craig Joe wrote: > > Hi All, > > The owner is in Roanoke, Va. He's been selling^H^H^H^H^H^H^H listing a > lot of HP stuff on E-bay. Most of it he knows nothing about and claims > that it "appears to work". After some discussion with him, I found that > "appears to work" means that the fan comes on but nothing else does! So > watch out. Based on my conversations with him, I don't think he's > interested in selling anything off of E-bay, unless maybe after it got no > bids. He's listed a couple of HP 1000s, a HP 9825 and a HP 9845 that I > know of. > > My $.02 worth, > Joe > > At 01:59 PM 2/25/00 -0800, you wrote: > >HP 2xxx stuff > > > >Just received this from someone who posted a paper tape punch on eBay. > >I asked if he had anything else. Someone on the East Coast may be able > >to work something out with him. > > > >"From: Craig Smith > >Reply-To: ip500@roanoke.infi.net > >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) > >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >To: Al Kossow > >Subject: Re: HP 2100 parts > >References: <200002251910.LAA28768@spies.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >Hi Al, > >No 2100 series stuff available but I do have a fair bit of 21MX and > >HP 1000 [series E and F] computers and pieces around. Also just hit the > >motherload on 2100 documentation----binders full! Am in the process of > >sorting it all out. What are you in need of and are you close enough to > >Roanoke for some heavy stuff. I've got a number of NICE rack cabinets > >and a bunch of the big floor model disc drives in storage and rack mount > >disc controllers. Also 2 or 3 of the 7970?? Reel to Reel > >data recorders [HEAVY!!]. Lots of 2640 terminals and some of the later > >terminals for the 3000 series. > > > >I'm cleaning out a warehouse full of stuff I recently bought and really > >am not sure of total numbers of stuff that will be available [or what > >else is in there] Every day is a new find. Let me know what your looking > >for and I'll do some digging. > > > > Regards, Craig > > > >" > > From ip500 at roanoke.infi.net Fri Feb 25 22:35:22 2000 From: ip500 at roanoke.infi.net (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:52 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff References: Message-ID: <38B7580A.E3BD03FA@roanoke.infi.net> Thanks for the kind words Bill. I just joined the list recently to expand my knowledge and newly acquired interest in computers. Built up a pretty good "instant collection" of semi-early HP stuff. My wife is giving me a really hard time about another hobby and more "junk". Regards, Craig William Donzelli wrote: > > > The owner is in Roanoke, Va. He's been selling^H^H^H^H^H^H^H listing a > > lot of HP stuff on E-bay. Most of it he knows nothing about and claims > > that it "appears to work". After some discussion with him, I found that > > "appears to work" means that the fan comes on but nothing else does! So > > watch out. Based on my conversations with him, I don't think he's > > interested in selling anything off of E-bay, unless maybe after it got no > > bids. He's listed a couple of HP 1000s, a HP 9825 and a HP 9845 that I > > know of. > > Craig Smith is a decent guy - but computers are not his thing (_old_ > radios are). Please, folks, not everyone that lists old computers on Ebay is > part of the "6800 assembler coding"* crowd. Don't slam them too > hard...they are just being honest with what they know. > > *Think back to an ancient thread. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 26 03:55:58 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff In-Reply-To: <200002260142.RAA28148@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000226045558.3e4fb19a@mailhost.intellistar.net> I went into a surplus store today and found a complete set of HP logic probes, pulser, chip clip and comparator. I asked what the price was and the onwer ran over to his computer and checked to see what they were selling for on E-bay. Needless to say, I left without buying it. Joe At 05:42 PM 2/25/00 -0800, Al wrote: >" Based on my conversations with him, I don't think he's >interested in selling anything off of E-bay" > >My 'favorite' line from eBay sellers is > >"If you're interested in something, let me know and I'll list > it on eBay" > >No, pinhead, you give me a price, and I say 'yes' or 'no' to it... > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 26 03:11:39 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... In-Reply-To: <000f01bf7ff3$602ff780$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000226041139.3e4f2e40@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:48 PM 2/25/00 -0500, you wrote: >Hi everyone, > >What a cool day. I woke up to a beautiful Florida morning and hopped in >the car and drove to Orlando and met Joe to 'hit the spots' (Thanks for >comming out to play, Joe!) Anytime! I had a ball! Mike forgot to tell everyone about his AMD 2900 bit slice single board computer. THAT'S COOL! Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 26 03:14:08 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... In-Reply-To: <003001bf7ffe$5c7ed560$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000226041408.3e4f0ef4@mailhost.intellistar.net> It's in Sanford Fla. This thing is seriously heavy! It's build like a tank and I'm not kidding. It has 1" plate aluminium in it. Neither Mike nor I could move it and we're both BIG boys. Joe At 09:08 PM 2/25/00 -0500, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Eros, Anthony > > >>Where's the UNIVAC? Is there any possibility of a rescue on it? >> > >It's almost in Orlando, FL. I'd probably be available to help in a rescue >attempt... ;) > >- Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 26 03:53:09 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... In-Reply-To: <3CD591440EF3D111BF1400104B72117F06AB51EF@ALFEXC5> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000226045309.3e4f2d3a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:11 PM 2/25/00 -0600, you wrote: >Hmm... How big are we talking here? > >-- Tony About 6 feet 5 inches tall x 2 feet (or more) deep x 4 foot wide. And VERY heavy! Joe From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Feb 26 03:37:42 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: HP logic probes etc. Message-ID: In a message dated 2/26/2000 1:08:02 AM Pacific Standard Time, rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > I went into a surplus store today and found a complete set of HP logic > probes, pulser, chip clip and comparator. I asked what the price was and > the onwer ran over to his computer and checked to see what they were > selling for on E-bay. Needless to say, I left without buying it. Well, Joe, you are a good scrounger. I bet you will find another. Out of curiosity what was he asking for the set? Paxton From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Feb 26 04:49:40 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: OT - need info on SUN 690MP board set Message-ID: <8c.14d14e5.25e909c4@aol.com> Can someone point me in the direction of info on the Sun SServer 690MP. I have read THE SUN HARDWARE REFERENCE compiled by James W. Birdsall and need more info. I seem to have gotten a board set, no backplane, and am interested in identifying some of the cards. Also looking for more info on the Ross CPU? Is anyone running one? OT because it seem to date from 1993. Have CPU (dual Ross 40 MHz) wi 2 differential SCSI & Fiber & 128 meg ram. 501-2055 wi 2X 501-1902 & 370-1388 Extra memory card wi 128 Meg. 501-1767 PDX92B VME card to SBus ??? 201 963-02 3 IPI controllers 501-1539 & 2X 501-1855 From dogas at leading.net Sat Feb 26 07:19:39 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <003201bf805c$24da5c20$ca646464@dogclient01> -----Original Message----- From: Joe > Anytime! I had a ball! Mike forgot to tell everyone about his AMD 2900 >bit slice single board computer. THAT'S COOL! I've had that one for awile and think I've mentioned it before, but.... Yep, she's a beaut... Its an Advanced Micro Devices Am2901 Evaluation and Learning Kit. It's basicly a complete front panel board with the cpu and everything.. It works. It has 3 nibbles of LEDs (for data display, pipeline register, and microword memory) and toggles for address, data, ram/mux select, run, load, and single-stepping. ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Feb 26 09:35:17 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: HP logic probes etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000226073517.009504c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 04:37 26-02-2000 EST, you wrote: >> I went into a surplus store today and found a complete set of HP logic >> probes, pulser, chip clip and comparator. I asked what the price was and >> the onwer ran over to his computer and checked to see what they were >> selling for on E-bay. Needless to say, I left without buying it. > >Well, Joe, you are a good scrounger. I bet you will find another. Out of >curiosity what was he asking for the set? FWIW, Joe, I don't blame you either. I will admit to using E-pay as an occasional reference, but I also take other factors into account. Example: If someone wants an 11/23 board or something, I'm not about to ask for the "collector" price. That would be silly. Last summer, I actually did buy an HP 545 logic probe from a guy who had it on E-pay. I was the only bidder at its asking price of around $25. They do turn up. Just be aware that there was a nearly identical model to the 545 that was only for ECL circuits, and the physical appearance (outside of the model number) is no different. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Feb 26 09:46:12 2000 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000226045558.3e4fb19a@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <200002260142.RAA28148@spies.com> Message-ID: > I went into a surplus store today and found a complete set of HP logic >probes, pulser, chip clip and comparator. I asked what the price was and >the onwer ran over to his computer and checked to see what they were >selling for on E-bay. Needless to say, I left without buying it. My guess is then that you didn't need it. Last month at TRW I was looking in a box of mac junk, offered the guy $35 for it, which he considered for minute, then started digging through the box and pulled out a card and sold it for $150 to another person who just walked up. Sometimes you win, sometimes you get what you need, sometimes it goes right past you. OTOH the really curious card I bought from him turns out to be functionally useless. My eBay peeve are people who say FS, but really just have a eBay link. I use eBay to set my own prices and it cuts both ways. Most items have drastically lowered prices, with just a few critical items holding value or going up. From dogas at leading.net Sat Feb 26 10:03:06 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: HP logic probes etc. Message-ID: <003401bf8073$18986c60$ca646464@dogclient01> >At 04:37 26-02-2000 EST, a few wrote: > >>> I went into a surplus store today and found a complete set of HP logic >>> probes, pulser, chip clip and comparator. I asked what the price was and >>> the onwer ran over to his computer and checked to see what they were >>> selling for on E-bay. Needless to say, I left without buying it. Yeah, I was there and pretty appaled too. Especially having to wait on the owner's cheesy computer and connection speed to get the price quote. ;) The scary thing is that this is where the Univac is and a resuce may entail a purchase at Ebay's street price... LOL! > They do turn up. Just be aware that there was a nearly identical model to >the 545 that was only for ECL circuits, and the physical appearance >(outside of the model number) is no different. 545A and 10525T probes came with my first 5036A trainer. ;) - Mike From aek at spies.com Sat Feb 26 11:37:05 2000 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff Message-ID: <200002261737.JAA15281@spies.com> "Careful Al, You never know who's on the list server." I figured you'd probably be here, but since you didn't post that the stuff was available.. "No, pinhead, you give me a price, and I say 'yes' or 'no' to it..." Did I say this was about you? From west at tseinc.com Sat Feb 26 11:21:10 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff References: <3.0.1.16.20000225210725.3b675c0c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <002c01bf807d$e150cee0$0101a8c0@jay> Someone wrote... > >No 2100 series stuff available but I do have a fair bit of 21MX and > >HP 1000 [series E and F] computers and pieces around. Also just hit the > >motherload on 2100 documentation----binders full! Am in the process of > >sorting it all out. What are you in need of and are you close enough to > >Roanoke for some heavy stuff. I've got a number of NICE rack cabinets > >and a bunch of the big floor model disc drives in storage and rack mount > >disc controllers. Also 2 or 3 of the 7970?? Reel to Reel > >data recorders [HEAVY!!]. Lots of 2640 terminals and some of the later > >terminals for the 3000 series. Aw sheesh - why does it have to be that all the decent HP2100 and 21MXM/E/F stuff is so far away from me. I'd give anything for another 2109E, another 2113E, and a 2108M and 2112M. OK.... not *ANYTHING*.... well, I can dream anyways :) I already have a pristine 7970E, but if the ones he has are 7970E's I would suggest any HP'ers go get 'em. VERY nice tape drives. Jay West From vaxman at uswest.net Sat Feb 26 11:51:57 2000 From: vaxman at uswest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... In-Reply-To: <003201bf805c$24da5c20$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: How many Am2901's does it have? Is it the 'HEX-29' 16bit computer that is shown in AMDs 'Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design' book and app notes? clint On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Mike wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe > > > > Anytime! I had a ball! Mike forgot to tell everyone about his AMD 2900 > >bit slice single board computer. THAT'S COOL! > > > I've had that one for awile and think I've mentioned it before, but.... > > Yep, she's a beaut... Its an Advanced Micro Devices Am2901 Evaluation and > Learning Kit. It's basicly a complete front panel board with the cpu and > everything.. It works. It has 3 nibbles of LEDs (for data display, > pipeline register, and microword memory) and toggles for address, data, > ram/mux select, run, load, and single-stepping. > > ;) > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 26 12:39:46 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: HP logic probes etc. In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000226073517.009504c0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000226133946.1bc7e76c@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:35 AM 2/26/00 -0800, you wrote: >At 04:37 26-02-2000 EST, you wrote: > >>> I went into a surplus store today and found a complete set of HP logic >>> probes, pulser, chip clip and comparator. I asked what the price was and >>> the onwer ran over to his computer and checked to see what they were >>> selling for on E-bay. Needless to say, I left without buying it. >> >>Well, Joe, you are a good scrounger. I bet you will find another. Out of >>curiosity what was he asking for the set? Well we found three sets that had closed on e-bay. One sold for $25, one sold for $40 something and the other sold for $140 something. When he started looking at the last one I left! > > FWIW, Joe, I don't blame you either. I will admit to using E-pay as an >occasional reference, but I also take other factors into account. Example: >If someone wants an 11/23 board or something, I'm not about to ask for the >"collector" price. That would be silly. I agree. E-bay is usefull for a price guide but many people take the TOP E-bay price and decide that's what they want. I dealt with the same thing when I used to restore cars. People would hear about some fully restored car that sold for mega thousands of dollars and they would decide that their unrestored rust bucket had to be worth almost as much. > > Last summer, I actually did buy an HP 545 logic probe from a guy who had >it on E-pay. I was the only bidder at its asking price of around $25. > > They do turn up. I bought the smaller kit with just the logic probe and pulser for $25 at the Orlando hamfest. There was also a HP 10525 Pulse Memory in the box and the seller included it too. The Pulse Memory is a cool device. It connects between the logic probe and it's power connector and any pulse that turns on the logic probe will trigger the PM and it will stay on untill manually reset. The power surge to the logic probe cause by the logic probe light turning on causes the PM to trigger. It's intended for those sitations where you want to connect a probe and let it monitor the circuit unattended for long periods of time. BTW I bought this stuff from a test equipment dealer by the name of Joe Barkley from Charlotte NC. I've known Joe for several years and he's an all around nice guy. I recommend him whole heartedly. I bought a HP logic comparator with all the books, IC cards, etc in like new condition for $20 at the UCF hamfest. I already had one so I passed it on to one of the other CC list members. Joe > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > From stevemas at persys.com Sat Feb 26 12:45:15 2000 From: stevemas at persys.com (Steve Mastrianni) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: HP 2xxx stuff In-Reply-To: <002c01bf807d$e150cee0$0101a8c0@jay> References: <3.0.1.16.20000225210725.3b675c0c@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000226133637.00b6d590@persys.com> I also wish I was closer. The 2100 holds a personal attraction for me, since it was the box I cut my teeth on. I wrote lots of assembly language and a pile of Fortran on the 2100, 21MXE and F, and A-series. The 7970E was a nice drive, 1600 BPI phase encoded. The 7970B was also a nice drive, but only 800 BPI NRZI. Both were built with high quality components and had a very high MTBF as long as you kept the read and write heads clean. At 11:21 AM 2/26/00 -0600, Jay West wrote: >Someone wrote... > > >No 2100 series stuff available but I do have a fair bit of 21MX and > > >HP 1000 [series E and F] computers and pieces around. Also just hit the > > >motherload on 2100 documentation----binders full! Am in the process of > > >sorting it all out. What are you in need of and are you close enough to > > >Roanoke for some heavy stuff. I've got a number of NICE rack cabinets > > >and a bunch of the big floor model disc drives in storage and rack mount > > >disc controllers. Also 2 or 3 of the 7970?? Reel to Reel > > >data recorders [HEAVY!!]. Lots of 2640 terminals and some of the later > > >terminals for the 3000 series. > >Aw sheesh - why does it have to be that all the decent HP2100 and 21MXM/E/F >stuff is so far away from me. I'd give anything for another 2109E, another >2113E, and a 2108M and 2112M. OK.... not *ANYTHING*.... well, I can dream >anyways :) > >I already have a pristine 7970E, but if the ones he has are 7970E's I would >suggest any HP'ers go get 'em. VERY nice tape drives. > >Jay West > > - Steve Mastrianni From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Feb 26 12:46:17 2000 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: OT - need info on SUN 690MP board set In-Reply-To: <8c.14d14e5.25e909c4@aol.com>; from Innfogra@aol.com on Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 05:49:40AM -0500 References: <8c.14d14e5.25e909c4@aol.com> Message-ID: <20000226124617.O12050@mrbill.net> On Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 05:49:40AM -0500, Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > Can someone point me in the direction of info on the Sun SServer 690MP. I > have read THE SUN HARDWARE REFERENCE > compiled by James W. Birdsall and need more info. > I seem to have gotten a board set, no backplane, and am interested in > identifying some of the cards. Also looking for more info on the Ross CPU? Is > anyone running one? > OT because it seem to date from 1993. > Have CPU (dual Ross 40 MHz) wi 2 differential SCSI & Fiber & 128 meg ram. > 501-2055 wi 2X 501-1902 & 370-1388 > Extra memory card wi 128 Meg. 501-1767 > PDX92B VME card to SBus ??? 201 963-02 > 3 IPI controllers 501-1539 & 2X 501-1855 You might want to check out my web site, www.sunhelp.org, and particuarly the mailing lists (www.sunhelp.org/lists.php3) - subscribe to the Sun Rescue list, and we can ID your boards for you there. Also, check out http://sun-ref.sunhelp.org - an updated Sun Hardware Reference is in the works (by Mr. Birdsall and others), and there is a mailing list dedicated to that as well. 4/6x0MP machines are nice; I've got four of them. Bill -- +---------------+-------------------+ | Bill Bradford | mrbill@mrbill.net | +-------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------+-----------------------------------+ | Version: 3.12 | | GCS d- s:++ a- C++++ US++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ N++ o K+++ w--- O- M-- V- | | PS PE+ Y+ PGP t+ 5 X- R-- tv+++ b++++ DI++++ D++ G++ e++ h r++ y+ | +-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----------------------------------------------+ From dogas at leading.net Sat Feb 26 13:13:59 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <001201bf808d$b2fafb00$ca646464@dogclient01> -----Original Message----- From: Clint Wolff (VAX collector) >How many Am2901's does it have? Is it the 'HEX-29' 16bit computer that >is shown in AMDs 'Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design' book and app notes? Just one. >> ;) >> - Mike: dogas@leading.net From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Feb 26 14:41:14 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Cassette storage Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000226143714.018646f0@pc> I received this charming message from someone today regarding the audio storage section of my web page http://www.threedee.com/jcm . - John : ::: From: xxxxx@aol.com : :: : Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 12:35:59 EST Subject: Cassete tape data storage To: jfoust@threedee.com : : : When I first saw your page, I was surprised that such a technology ever existed. Lately, I have been writing a windows program that stores data on standard cassette tapes, like a cheap alternative to a tape backup drive. I, being fourteen years old, was not around when the Commodore and other such systems dominated the market, so I did not know that there was ever a way to store data on cassette tapes. Once I am completely done, and I can fit a fair amount of data onto a cassette, I will send you the program. If you know of any other such programs, please tell me of them. I am interested to find out more. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 15:22:43 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... In-Reply-To: <001201bf808d$b2fafb00$ca646464@dogclient01> from "Mike" at Feb 26, 0 02:13:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 528 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000226/17d430e6/attachment-0001.ksh From KB9VU at aol.com Sat Feb 26 17:45:52 2000 From: KB9VU at aol.com (KB9VU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Heath/Zenith stuff Message-ID: <44.1e46171.25e9bfb0@aol.com> I have a Zenith (Heathkit) H/Z-110 low profile computer with all the options including the latest MB and 768K of RAM, Dual internal hard drives, outboard 1/2 height 8" Zenith drive unit, the color monitor and the Gemini IBM PC card (boots PCDOS directly). User, Technical and Service manuals: Full, original set. Software: Yeah! Lots of it. 15 to 20 original H/Z 3 ring binders of documentation and at least 150 4.25" disks of software. Operating systems: ZDOS, MSDOS, CP/M-80 and CP/M-86. I need room. Make me an offer. Shipping is NOT desired as it will take 3 or 4 large boxes and a lot of work to do it. Located in the St. Louis area. Jay West is still working through the pile of H/Z-89 stuff he picked up from me last month and I may have a few more items of that vintage, spare parts, software and maybe one more computer, available also. If Jay doesn't want them, they will be available. Again, I really don't want to ship the big stuff. Mike Stover, KB9VU Really great radios glow in the dark CCA# 404 MARS AFA3BO Florissant, MO From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Feb 26 19:22:18 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day II ... In-Reply-To: References: <001201bf808d$b2fafb00$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000226202218.25e7d92e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, I held off talking about my haul until I could try to find out more about the stuff, but I haven't had any luck finding anything. Thanks to Mike, here's some of the stuff that I got. A Fluke 1722A Intelligent Controller, a 2400B Intelligent Computer Front-End and a 2240B Data Logger. Does know anything about them? Any suggestions of anyplace on the net where I can find out more about them? The 1722 needs a disk with "F DOS". Does anyone have a copy of that? The 1722 is also missing the keyboard. It has a five pin DIN socket that appears to be the same as that used for the IBM PC and AT keyboards. Does anyone know if it can it use a IBM PC or PC AT keyboard on it? Joe From af-list at wfi-inc.com Sat Feb 26 18:45:23 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Docs for TC31? Message-ID: Hi all, Kind of a blah trip for me to TRW this month; last time I had almost no money and there was a bunch of stuff I wanted, this time I went loaded and only bought two extender boards for $1 each. Hmph. However, I did get to meet up with Marvin and Eliot Moore, from whom I acquired a couple of nifty qbus boards...one of which is an Emulex TC31. Does anyone have any documentation for this board, or have a minute to run over the dip switches for me? As always, help is much appreciated... Cheers, Aaron From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 18:47:14 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day II ... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000226202218.25e7d92e@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Feb 26, 0 08:22:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1806 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000227/9d6e5a22/attachment-0001.ksh From at258 at osfn.org Sat Feb 26 20:11:46 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Keronix In-Reply-To: <5936ED1A3F41D311BDC60090278874660C76EB@MSX102> Message-ID: We have recently added a Keronix to our collection. Perhpas this spring we will be able to do some work and get it operable. My question is this: How many Keronix machines survive? Does anyone else on the list have one? From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 26 22:22:40 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Keronix In-Reply-To: References: <5936ED1A3F41D311BDC60090278874660C76EB@MSX102> Message-ID: >We have recently added a Keronix to our collection. Perhpas this spring >we will be able to do some work and get it operable. > >My question is this: How many Keronix machines survive? Does anyone >else on the list have one? What is it? I for one have never even heard of one. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From at258 at osfn.org Sat Feb 26 23:06:18 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Keronix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's a Data General Nova clone. Supposedly they were working on an Eclipse clone also. On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >We have recently added a Keronix to our collection. Perhpas this spring > >we will be able to do some work and get it operable. > > > >My question is this: How many Keronix machines survive? Does anyone > >else on the list have one? > > What is it? I for one have never even heard of one. > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Feb 27 00:04:41 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Stuff to trade/stuff I'm looking for In-Reply-To: Aaron Christopher Finney's message of "Wed, 23 Feb 2000 14:04:06 -0800 (PST)" References: Message-ID: <200002270604.WAA05560@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > On Wed, 23 Feb 2000, Stan Sieler wrote: > > I thought the 2649 was the OEM version of the 2645 ... and that some > > of them were sold to people who developed 2649-resident software. > > Exactly the case. In fact, I believe it was Wirt Amir on the hp3000-l list > who was telling me about how his company actually programmed them to be > stand-alone wordprocessors. Yeah, I've just never gotten a close enough look at one to be sure. Other 264X terminals do differ: 2640s have a processor card with an 8008, and I never figured out what the processor was in the 2647F. > Thanks for the info! $300 is more than I want to spend on this one, but I > may have to figure out something if my patience starts to run out... Hey, this isn't for a PDP-11 or a VAX, it's for an HP3000, which is God's gift to computing. -Frank McConnell From dogas at leading.net Sun Feb 27 05:48:20 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Am2901 sbc, WAS: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <005301bf8118$a672c1c0$ca646464@dogclient01> -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell >Any other AM29xx chips on it, like a 2909 or 2910 sequencer? Or is this >just a demo board for a 4-bit ALU chip? > >It sounds like a really interesting find, though. The 29xx series chips >were interesting devices that have been used in all sorts of machines. Yep, there is a 2909 on board too.... ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net From dogas at leading.net Sun Feb 27 06:21:52 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Am2901 sbc Message-ID: <00b201bf811d$3cef1780$ca646464@dogclient01> I'll post a picture of the sbc online tomorrow... Cheers - Mike: dogas@leading.net From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Feb 27 08:51:34 2000 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: AT&T 3B2 model 310 and model 400 in Kansas City References: Message-ID: <38B939F6.D02A6B43@dragonsweb.org> McFadden, Mike wrote: > > AT&T #B2 model 310 and Model 400 > I just ran across these two machine along with some sort of AT&T external > case that goes with them. The model 400 has a damaged case, I haven't > looked inside. Rare, interesting, should I save them? I have read the 3B2 > FAQ. Anybody else want them? > Mike > mmcfadden@cmh.edu Mike, I want them if no one else spoken for them. Let me know and we'll talk price. Thanks, jbdigriz -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- DragonsWeb Labs - Custom R&D, Software, & Hardware ---------------------------------------------------------------- Tagline for Sunday, February 27, 2000 May I please be excused? My Brain is full. ---------------------------------------------------------------- James B. DiGriz - jbdigriz@dragonsweb.org - (912) 653-5139 ---------------------------------------------------------------- From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Feb 27 10:09:02 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Electronic/Radio/Computer Swap Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000227080902.009471d0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> The annual Mike and Key Amateur Radio Club swap meet is coming up again at the Western Washington (Puyallup) Fairgrounds on Saturday, March 11, from 09:00-15:00 Pacific time. Parking is free, admission is $6.00 with kids under 16 free when accompanied by an adult. Web info can be found here: http://www.mikeandkey.com/flyer00.htm (shameless plug alert!) I'll be there selling this year. Here's a partial listing of what I plan to bring: Exabyte 8200 and 8500 8mm SCSI tape drives, cleaned and checked out. A small (400W or so) UPS. Motorola 'Micor' radios. A Western Electric "shoebox" 1A2 key system cabinet and line cards. Anything else I can think of to grab, and that will fit. I want to bring out some DSD-880's, and maybe a Cipher front-loader, but Eric Smith was supposed to pick such up from me. On the other wing, he did not appear when he was scheduled to, and my E-mails to him have gone unanswered. Eric, if you're reading this, PLEASE GET IN TOUCH WITH ME! I'm willing to hold the stuff you wanted for a reasonable amount of time if you'll just commit to a pickup date. However, I need to clear space for future projects. Thanks for reading, and I hope to see at least some of you there. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Feb 27 10:36:08 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Keronix References: Message-ID: <38B95278.AB712FD5@mainecoon.com> "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > It's a Data General Nova clone. Yep, although like the DCC clones it has an "extended" mode which allows it to address more than 32KW of memory by restricting indirection to one level. I've been looking for one of these for a *long* time for my nova collection. Keronix was a major vendor of aftermarket core memory for the Nova, Their memory products were somewhat better than DG's; when DG shipped 8K boards Keronix shipped 16K, when DG finally figured out how to build 16K boards Keronix shipped 32Ks. When the Keronix factory burned to the ground we only somewhat jokingly referred to it as having been struck by "DeCastro lightning". -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From west at tseinc.com Sun Feb 27 10:28:04 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: HP2100 help requested Message-ID: <002301bf813f$a0ea5de0$0101a8c0@jay> One of my 2100's has developed a problem. It was working fine for some time, but was only powered up occasionally. The problem started when I ran some burn-in diags over several days. The machine started acting funny, and when I powered it off and back on, there's no front panel display at all - no lights. However, all the fans come up, one of the internal boards that has an on-board led is lit, and I checked all the outputs of the power supply and they're just peachy. I moved every single card (including the front panel) from the bad system to another system and it then runs fine so I know it's not any cards. I suspect the power supply, but as I said all the outputs appear good. Gawd I hope nothing happened to that wire-wrap backplane. Can anyone offer some advice? I'm starting to pour over the schematics on the power supply - wondering if something is amis with the poweron or powergood signal perhaps but I don't know much about it. Any tips most appreciated! Jay West From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sun Feb 27 11:19:04 2000 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Stuff to trade/stuff I'm looking for In-Reply-To: <200002270604.WAA05560@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from Frank McConnell at "Feb 26, 2000 10:04:41 pm" Message-ID: <200002271719.LAA06121@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > Hey, this isn't for a PDP-11 or a VAX, it's for an HP3000, which is > God's gift to computing. > > -Frank McConnell > Gods gift to computing ;) Surely you're referring to something other than the 3000/200... They couldnt even write a proper FORTRAN compiler for it. And we never did use the 5.25" floppy drives, they didnt seem to provide a proper file oriented way to access them (though I suppose it could have been just a lack of documentation). -Lawrence LeMay From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 27 11:25:05 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: A classic classiccmp day... In-Reply-To: Re: A classic classiccmp day... (Mike) References: <003201bf805c$24da5c20$ca646464@dogclient01> Message-ID: <14521.24049.273560.689399@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 26, Mike wrote: > Yep, she's a beaut... Its an Advanced Micro Devices Am2901 Evaluation and > Learning Kit. It's basicly a complete front panel board with the cpu and > everything.. It works. It has 3 nibbles of LEDs (for data display, > pipeline register, and microword memory) and toggles for address, data, > ram/mux select, run, load, and single-stepping. I've got one of those too. What a cool board! I *really* like Am2901s. -Dave McGuire From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun Feb 27 11:47:46 2000 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: HP2100 help requested In-Reply-To: <002301bf813f$a0ea5de0$0101a8c0@jay> from Jay West at "Feb 27, 2000 10:28:04 am" Message-ID: <20000227174751Z433393-8367+89@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > One of my 2100's has developed a problem. It was working fine for some time, > but was only powered up occasionally. The problem started when I ran some > burn-in diags over several days. The machine started acting funny, and when > I powered it off and back on, there's no front panel display at all - no > lights. However, all the fans come up, one of the internal boards that has > an on-board led is lit, and I checked all the outputs of the power supply > and they're just peachy. I moved every single card (including the front > panel) from the bad system to another system and it then runs fine so I know > it's not any cards. I suspect the power supply, but as I said all the > outputs appear good. Gawd I hope nothing happened to that wire-wrap > backplane. > > Can anyone offer some advice? I'm starting to pour over the schematics on > the power supply - wondering if something is amis with the poweron or > powergood signal perhaps but I don't know much about it. > My experience when I worked at an HP2100 site was that about 50% of the problems had something to do with the backplane. You probably don't want to hear this :-). Check for dirt or dust in the connectors. One of the things the service people did when they got strange problems was vacuum out the entire backplane. For some reason HP2100s suffered more from bad backplane connections and dirt than other machines I've used. If a quick clean of the backplane doesn't work, its probably a good idea to check to power supply (its easier) before going back to the backplane for a more careful examination. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Feb 27 12:55:21 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: HP2100 help requested In-Reply-To: <002301bf813f$a0ea5de0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000227135521.3dbfee40@mailhost.intellistar.net> Jay, Do all of those machines use the same power supply? I know where there is a HP 12797 (or 12979?). It's an I/O extender for the HP 1000. It looks like it has the same card rack and power supply as a 1000. I can probably get it cheap if you need it. It has a DCPC card in it but all the other cards look like interface cards for external IO. Joe At 10:28 AM 2/27/00 -0600, you wrote: >One of my 2100's has developed a problem. It was working fine for some time, >but was only powered up occasionally. The problem started when I ran some >burn-in diags over several days. The machine started acting funny, and when >I powered it off and back on, there's no front panel display at all - no >lights. However, all the fans come up, one of the internal boards that has >an on-board led is lit, and I checked all the outputs of the power supply >and they're just peachy. I moved every single card (including the front >panel) from the bad system to another system and it then runs fine so I know >it's not any cards. I suspect the power supply, but as I said all the >outputs appear good. Gawd I hope nothing happened to that wire-wrap >backplane. > >Can anyone offer some advice? I'm starting to pour over the schematics on >the power supply - wondering if something is amis with the poweron or >powergood signal perhaps but I don't know much about it. > >Any tips most appreciated! > >Jay West > > > > From whdawson at mlynk.com Sun Feb 27 12:01:48 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Keronix In-Reply-To: <38B95278.AB712FD5@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <000401bf814c$b7540e20$19e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> Yep, although like the DCC clones... How well I remember the DCC D-116. When I was stationed at FCDSTC, Dam Neck, VA we used one to control a IIRC 64 x 64 switching matrix for the Univac equipment (642B, UYK-7, and periphs). Local boxes on top of the computers would convert 36 bits, IIRC, of data and the control and interrupts lines to serial, (and vice versa) which would be routed thru the matrix, then go on to the selected computer or peripheral, where it would be converted back to parallel with the control and interrupt signals extracted. All the cabling was done with RG-59U. The system was synchronous, with the master clock generated at the matrix. I well remember tweaking the delays in the local converters and cutting cable to length to get the timing right. However, this sure beat using the huge patch panel this equipment replaced. We had a spare D-116, and we would switch over the ASR-33 and Digitronics tape reader and write and play BASIC games for hours while monitoring the system, which was designed in San Diego at ??? (a Naval research facility). I even got a 2 week "vacation" in Fairfield, NJ at the DCC HQ, where I learned field repair, to the component level, on the D-116. Does anyone remember the "twisted ring counter" used as the master timing circuit for the D-116 CPU board? Very cleaver, but hideous to troubleshoot. -> Keronix was a major vendor of aftermarket core memory for -> the Nova, Their memory products were somewhat better than -> DG's; when DG shipped 8K boards Keronix shipped 16K, when -> DG finally figured out how to build 16K boards Keronix -> shipped 32Ks. Keronix memory was all we used in the DCC box. IIRC, DCC didn't make their own. Thanks for the memories, Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 27 12:03:42 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Am2901 sbc, WAS: A classic classiccmp day... In-Reply-To: <005301bf8118$a672c1c0$ca646464@dogclient01> from "Mike" at Feb 27, 0 06:48:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 599 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000227/65bca0f9/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 27 12:07:52 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: HP2100 help requestedr In-Reply-To: <002301bf813f$a0ea5de0$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Feb 27, 0 10:28:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1292 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000227/e2b94659/attachment-0001.ksh From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Feb 27 13:18:39 2000 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Electronic/Radio/Computer Swap Message-ID: <6d.1989414.25ead28f@aol.com> In a message dated 2/27/2000 8:16:47 AM Pacific Standard Time, kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com writes: > The annual Mike and Key Amateur Radio Club swap meet is coming up again at > the Western Washington (Puyallup) Fairgrounds on Saturday, March 11, from > 09:00-15:00 Pacific time. Parking is free, admission is $6.00 with kids > under 16 free when accompanied by an adult. > One great swapmeet. Very large. Get there early. Or better yet get a table. Paxton From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 27 13:26:16 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Am2901 sbc, WAS: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <200002271926.OAA25061@world.std.com> > From: Tony Duell <> >Any other AM29xx chips on it, like a 2909 or 2910 sequencer? Or is this <> >just a demo board for a 4-bit ALU chip? <> > <> >It sounds like a really interesting find, though. The 29xx series chips <> >were interesting devices that have been used in all sorts of machines. <> <> <> Yep, there is a 2909 on board too.... < I just noticed that I have a 6 wide, Probably Unibus, DEC card with 8 Am 2901s on it. The number on the tab is L0400. Any idea what it is? Paxton From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 27 14:41:56 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Am2901 on unknown DEC card, Need info In-Reply-To: Am2901 on unknown DEC card, Need info (Innfogra@aol.com) References: <27.24f528f.25eae1a2@aol.com> Message-ID: <14521.35860.645854.984618@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 27, Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > I just noticed that I have a 6 wide, Probably Unibus, DEC card with 8 Am > 2901s on it. The number on the tab is L0400. Any idea what it is? That's the data path board for a CI750, which is a CI interface for a VAX-11/750. -Dave McGuire From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Feb 27 14:45:36 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Still Available: HP1000 QuickRef guides Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000227124536.0093f100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> I still have two quick-reference guides for HP1000's available. Cost is $5.00 each (includes mailing costs -- I decided to discount them some more). First two takers in order of arrival of an E-mailed response get them. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From west at tseinc.com Sun Feb 27 14:45:01 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: HP2100 help requested - minor progress References: <20000227174751Z433393-8367+89@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <005201bf8163$85c21de0$0101a8c0@jay> Dr. Mark wrote...... > My experience when I worked at an HP2100 site was that about 50% > of the problems had something to do with the backplane. You > probably don't want to hear this :-). Check for dirt or dust > in the connectors. One of the things the service people did when > they got strange problems was vacuum out the entire backplane. > For some reason HP2100s suffered more from bad backplane connections > and dirt than other machines I've used. I use a particularly fantastic contact cleaner designed for gold. I can't say enough good about it. Now I use it on all cards and connectors I get during the cleaning process. My backplane has been very babied :) > If a quick clean of the backplane doesn't work, its probably > a good idea to check to power supply (its easier) before going > back to the backplane for a more careful examination. Ok, I dug through some info on the power supply. It appears that the IPU (Internal Power On) and PWU (power up) signals should go from 0 to 4vdc +/- 1v within 1/2 second of line voltage crossing 102vac. On my good machine they do, on this one they don't. It appears now that there is a problem with the A3 control board which monitors power and is the originator of IPU and PWU. If the revs of the boards are the same I'll try switching them. In any case, at least it seems to be isolated to one card. Thanks for all who responded, I'll let the list know what I find. Jay West PS - who was it that had a 2100 for years and hasn't touched it? Aw c'mon - give it a good home - I do know one ya know From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Feb 27 15:50:57 2000 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Still Available: HP1000 QuickRef guides In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000227124536.0093f100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: Did Jim Willing get one from you? Last I heard he's in need of HP1000 doc's for the pair he got off of Paxton, and I don't know how activelly he monitors the list. Zane > I still have two quick-reference guides for HP1000's available. Cost is >$5.00 each (includes mailing costs -- I decided to discount them some more). > > First two takers in order of arrival of an E-mailed response get them. >Thanks much. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bobstek at ix.netcom.com Sun Feb 27 16:05:05 2000 From: bobstek at ix.netcom.com (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Contact cleaner? Was: HP2100 help requested - minor progress In-Reply-To: <005201bf8163$85c21de0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: I use a particularly fantastic contact cleaner designed for gold. I can't say enough good about it. Now I use it on all cards and connectors I get during the cleaning process. My backplane has been very babied :) Jay West So don't keep it a secret! What is it and where do you get it for how much? I've used Cramolin (red and blue) that I bought years ago for my audio interconnects. I tend to use it as a general palliative and can't really verify or dispute its effectiveness. How do you judge? Bob Stek Saver of Lost SOLs bobstek@ix.netcom.com From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Feb 27 16:07:46 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: HP1000 guides spoken for Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000227140746.00943e20@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Thanks go to Craig Smith and Paxton Hoag for claiming the last of the HP1000 quick-ref guides. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Feb 27 16:09:22 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:53 2005 Subject: Still Available: HP1000 QuickRef guides In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20000227124536.0093f100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000227140922.0094c660@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 13:50 27-02-2000 -0800, you wrote: >Did Jim Willing get one from you? Last I heard he's in need of HP1000 >doc's for the pair he got off of Paxton, and I don't know how activelly he >monitors the list. Actually, no, I never heard back from Jim. However, Paxton just got one of the two remaining, so Jim can probably hit him up for a copy. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Feb 27 16:27:51 2000 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Selling My Collection Message-ID: Heads Up... here's the Deal: After much mental anguish and thought-form hand wringing, I think it is best that I unload a Hobby or two and concentrate on other things.. Therefore: Seeing as how the Computers are taking up over 30% of my living space, consuming financial, electrical, and temporal resources, but not getting used for months at a time... well, you get the Picture. I am going to sell everything that I now have related to classic computing.. that is, all the Minis and Micros and everything related to them: parts, spares, software, documentation, peripherals, sales material, the related books library, cables, stuff, junk, and even the little plastic bags full of odd lockwashers. The Collection is primarily DEC PDP-11 Minis, several 11/34s, several 11/44s, a few uVAXen, two PRO-350 etc. The Micros are Apple IIs, Kaypros, various early portables, an Intecolor with display and trackball, NorthStar Horizons, etc etc etc etc...... And, 'Yes' this includes the IMSAI, the Altair, and the Heathkit Large Analogue Computer, and several other quite rare items. There are not a lot of conditions, save that I will be asking somewhere between the high four-figures / low five-figures in US Dollars, and that the Buyer is expected to take *everything*.. ie no 'cherry picking'. My intent is to get my living room back, not start a part-time surplus business. The Buyer must come to my location with a truck big enough to do the job, unless the Buyer is local enough to make two or three trips in the space of a weekend. The deal will be: We agree on price, you pay me, the check clears the bank, you show up with truck, we load gear all day, I wave goodbye when you/it leaves, period, as in sale final, as-is, where-is, don't even say the word 'warranty' around me. I'll be happy to discuss in detail with you as to what works, what doesn't, etc. The only exception to all of this is the MINC-11, which has been promised to the Computer History Museum at Moffet Field. I will send a complete inventory to serious requestors... and again I stress that this is an all-or-nothing, I'm leaving the Hobby and never looking back type of deal. I am located in Los Angeles, CA for your logistical information. Cheers John From dlinder at uiuc.edu Sun Feb 27 16:28:27 2000 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Amiga and BSD o/s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Feb 2000, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > I'm wanting to try out one (or both) of Open BSD and NetBSD on my lil' ol' > Amiga -- I really need someone who has gone through the teething process of > formatting drives and instaling necessary files, etc. I installed it on my 2000 a few times... just follow the INSTALL directions. Nothing could be easier. Just pick your partition sizes as per their directions (pretty on target), label them accordingly in the Amiga HD Toolbox, and go... Of course, that was at least a version ago, so... who knows > Amiga o/s is neat, but Id like to get into something with a more viable > future. Heh, I got a PC to run FreeBSD so my amiga could keep running AmigaOS... But I'm in the school of people who think VAXen should run VMS. good luck! NetBSD/Amiga is nice... served me well for 4 years of college. - Dan Linder / dlinder@uiuc.edu / upside@mcs.net - - Riot sounds start riots. / keep talking... - From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 27 15:38:34 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Am2901 sbc, WAS: A classic classiccmp day... In-Reply-To: <200002271926.OAA25061@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Feb 27, 0 02:26:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1974 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000227/2cd36ca7/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 27 15:41:25 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: HP2100 help requested - minor progress In-Reply-To: <005201bf8163$85c21de0$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Feb 27, 0 02:45:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 579 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000227/9125a147/attachment-0001.ksh From rich at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Feb 27 17:51:50 2000 From: rich at alcor.concordia.ca (Rich Lafferty) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Amiga and BSD o/s In-Reply-To: ; from dlinder@uiuc.edu on Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 04:28:27PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20000227185150.A22999@alcor.concordia.ca> On Sun, Feb 27, 2000 at 04:28:27PM -0600, Dan Linder (dlinder@uiuc.edu) wrote: > > Heh, I got a PC to run FreeBSD so my amiga could keep running AmigaOS... > But I'm in the school of people who think VAXen should run VMS. Of course, there's one other school, which is that in which you obtain two of everything, one running NetBSD and the other running its original OS. I just found my second MIPS M120 and have my eye on a pair of vs3100s and a pair of Sun 3/60s... :-) -Rich -- ------------------------------ Rich Lafferty --------------------------- Sysadmin/Programmer, Instructional and Information Technology Services Concordia University, Montreal, QC (514) 848-7625 ------------------------- rich@alcor.concordia.ca ---------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 27 18:26:23 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Am2901 sbc, WAS: A classic classiccmp day... Message-ID: <200002280026.TAA22219@world.std.com> Hi all, I have spent all day trying to get VMS 5.4 loaded onto my 11/750, but I can't figure out how to get standalone backup to find the hard drive. My configuration: CPU: 11/750 Massbus? Emulex SC750/B? (RM03/RM05/RM80 compatible) Fujitsu Eagle (M2351?) Emulex SC750/B? (RM03/RM05/RM80 compatible) Memory: 14Meg Unibus: TU80 controller misc other boards 4.3 BSD recognizes the Fuji drive, and calls it hp(0,0), but I can't get standalone backup (version 4.4) to recognize it... Any suggestions? I've tried DUA0, DRA0, DBA0, and several others... Thanks in advance, clint PS I shudder to think of my electric bill this month... Yesterday I installed and played with 4.3 BSD, today I tried to install VMS... Fortunately it is cool enough outside, I can just open the door to keep it from overheating... From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Feb 27 19:06:26 2000 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Stuff to trade/stuff I'm looking for In-Reply-To: Lawrence LeMay's message of "Sun, 27 Feb 2000 11:19:04 -0600 (CST)" References: <200002271719.LAA06121@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <200002280106.RAA36690@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Gods gift to computing ;) > Surely you're referring to something other than the 3000/200... They couldnt > even write a proper FORTRAN compiler for it. And we never did use the > 5.25" floppy drives, they didnt seem to provide a proper file oriented > way to access them (though I suppose it could have been just a lack > of documentation). Sounds like a 9000 to me; there never was a 3000 series 200. The only floppy disc drives I ever heard of on 3000s were 8", and I don't think that notion caught on. And if you were using a 3000, you'd have noticed! 3000s don't run Unix, they run MPE, which (back then at least) was clearly not Unix-like. They also used to have a thoroughly record-structured filesystem. Most folks just hate that, though I can't fathom why. -Frank McConnell From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Feb 27 20:58:20 2000 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Selling My Collection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.20000227203158.00b4f610@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 02:27 PM 2/27/00 -0800, John Lawson said something like: >again I stress that this is an all-or-nothing, I'm leaving the Hobby >and never looking back type of deal. I'm really sorry to see you leave John! You've been one of the "core" group on this list from before I joined who's left me with important bits of knowledge and wisdom about a broad variety of classic computer-related subjects. I really hope you are able to find a fine home for the collection. I think I can _really_ sympathize with you on the space thing. For at least 25 years I've been a serious early radio and electronic communications collector/historian. I have several very interesting items amongst the mostly garden variety early radio collection fitted into the house. Now, with folks like you here, I've been able to develop my classic computer collecting hobby within a short time and obtain a few interesting classic computer pieces to add to the several gems I already had before I "discovered" the hobby. As Hans F. and William D. can attest from seeing our house, there is a wee bit of a space problem in "my" areas ;) Beverly "allows" me a bit over half the basement, all the attic, an extra bedroom (a small one) and the 2 car garage at the back of the property for my stuff (she's giving me the evil eye on the half of the main garage filled with DEC gear though . . .). At least the DEC gear out in the garage is heading out to Colorado which is beginning to be planned now. There are several radios on display around our living room but those are like a piece of furniture. Not many of us folks have yet figured out how to make a typical minicomputer look like a piece of wood furniture in order to please the spouse/S.O. ;) Good luck! -Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From west at tseinc.com Sun Feb 27 22:02:21 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: HP2100 more minor progress References: Message-ID: <00fd01bf81a0$9e2d90c0$0101a8c0@jay> Well, the bad card is definitely A3 in the power supply. This is the card that checks overvoltage, undervoltage, and provides the powerup signal. Unfortunately, my schematics for the power supply boards is correct for all the cards except A3. My schematics are for 2100-60047 and my board is 2100-60109. Since the 60047 version has IC's and my 60109 board does not, I'm a little hesitant to accept the schematic I've got. Sheesh! Also, how come most HP power supplies I've worked with don't have ejection handles on the cards? There always a major pain to remove (wiping off my bloody knuckles )! Cursory probes with a transistor checker and vom don't reveal the problem. Unless someone here has schematics for the 2100-60109 A3 board, it looks like I'll be calling a dealer tomorrow to find out just how much he'll charge for a replacement board. Grrrrr.... Thanks to all who replied! Jay West From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Feb 27 22:32:05 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: VAX/VMS help needed Message-ID: <200002280432.XAA16745@world.std.com> Message-ID: <011401bf81a3$a87ed540$0101a8c0@jay> Bob wrote... > So don't keep it a secret! What is it and where do you get it for how much? > > I've used Cramolin (red and blue) that I bought years ago for my audio > interconnects. I tend to use it as a general palliative and can't really > verify or dispute its effectiveness. How do you judge? It's made by Caig, and called Pro Gold G5. It cost me about $15.00 for a 5oz spray can. I've used it on every gold connector in 3 restoration projects, and I still have almost 1/2 can (and that includes scrubbing all the backplane connectors with it). The only drawback is it is ONLY for use on gold connectors. I use it on backplane connectors as well as the edge connectors on cards with a very soft toothbrush. How do I judge efficacy? It has definitely solved several problematic connection backplanes for me. Also many I/O cards that were very hard to seat now slide in and out effortlessly (and still seat snugly). Old very worn connectors (and even corroded ones) come out bright and shiny almost immediately. Supposedly it also prevents future corrosion. And best of all - it's completely safe to get on plastics (although they do advise wiping up excess quickly). When talking to a rep at the company, they also said it is completely non-conductive and can be sprayed on live connections. I wouldn't do that - but it does make me feel like I don't always have to let the connector dry over 24 hours before using. Regards, Jay West From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Feb 27 23:05:14 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Selling My Collection Message-ID: <20000228050514.28942.qmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Christian Fandt wrote: > Upon the date 02:27 PM 2/27/00 -0800, John Lawson said something like: > >again I stress that this is an all-or-nothing, I'm leaving the Hobby > >and never looking back type of deal. > > I'm really sorry to see you leave John! I agree. > Not many of us folks have yet figured out how to make a typical > minicomputer look like a piece of wood furniture in order to please > the spouse/S.O. ;) I do have these LSI-11/03 machines in 3' tall DEC cabinets with casters and woodgrain formica tops - they could pass for end tables. I got them from OSU at the surplus yard about 8 years ago - 11/03 w/DLV11J, RXV11, RX01 and a small amount of MOS memory (8K?) They make up an important segment of my basement work area as portable Qbus space with useful work surface on top. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain goes away on 15 March. See http://www.infinet.com/ for details. Please update your address lists to reflect my new address: erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sun Feb 27 23:15:22 2000 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: VAX/VMS help needed Message-ID: <20000228051522.9013.qmail@web605.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote: > > Hi all, > > I have spent all day trying to get VMS 5.4 loaded onto my 11/750, but > I can't figure out how to get standalone backup to find the hard drive. > > My configuration: > > CPU: > 11/750 > Massbus? > Emulex SC750/B? (RM03/RM05/RM80 compatible) > Fujitsu Eagle (M2351?) > Emulex SC750/B? (RM03/RM05/RM80 compatible) > > 4.3 BSD recognizes the Fuji drive, and calls it hp(0,0), but I can't > get standalone backup (version 4.4) to recognize it... All unicies I've worked with in the DEC world were great about non-DEC disk controllers. Even 2.9BSD for the PDP-11 loves Unibus SMD disk controllers in the install (xp driver). > Any suggestions? I've tried DUA0, DRA0, DBA0, and several others... ISTR that with third-party disk controllers, it was common to cut custom SA Backup tapes. We always had SI/9900 controllers so I can't comment to your Emulex boards specifically, but I know we had to patch the DRDRIVER.EXE to recognize an Eagle as an oversized RM05. The smaller Fuji drive (a 160Mb) showed up under VMS and UNIX as a pair of RM03s, DRA0 and DRA1. We didn't have to do anything to the drives for that one - the geometry was emulated exactly. Depending on MASSBUS slot number (set by the jumpers on the backplane, but typically never altered from factory spec), it's possible that your drive might show up as DRB0 or DRC0, especially if there are multiple MASSBUS options installed or even a second Unibus (L0010 card). One of the features of later SA Backups was that it would print out your available disk and tape configuration as part of the startup process. If you are loading such a version and the tape drive shows up but not your Emulex disk, suspect driver issues with the SA Backup tapes, especially if they are DEC standard. I think that crept in around VMS 5, though. If you can get a newer Backup, it might help you identify what, if any, drive letters it shows up as. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain goes away on 15 March. See http://www.infinet.com/ for details. Please update your address lists to reflect my new address: erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From jmd at infinet.com Sun Feb 27 23:11:05 2000 From: jmd at infinet.com (jmd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Sony SMC-70 info Message-ID: <38BA0369.9A4E915A@infinet.com> Hi all... I am still looking for any information I can find on a Sony SMC-70. User Manual, pinout diagrams etc. Any info would be appreciated. I have CP/M disks. tia jeff duncan From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 28 00:28:34 2000 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Selling My Collection Message-ID: <20000228062835.68200.qmail@hotmail.com> John, Well I know that A: I can;t afford all of it, and B: I don't need more than one 11/34, etc., hehe. Anyways, I wanted to ask if you have a spare 11/34 front panel you could possibly spare, since mine has none. Also, the 2nd weekend in March will be Wang day. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vcf at siconic.com Mon Feb 28 01:13:43 2000 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Tandy 6000 up for grabs in Fleischmanns, New York, USA Message-ID: Here is someone with a Tandy 6000 system that needs to go to a good home. Please contact the owner directly. Reply-to: catskill@catskill.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 09:04:36 -0500 From: Catskill To: Vintage Computer Festival Subject: Re: Old Working Computer In Fleischmanns, NY 12430. The town is located in the southeastern tier of New York (Catskill Mountain) about 100 miles due northwest of New York City and 110 miles due east from Binghamton, NY. Incidentally, I forgot to mention that then Tandy 6000 HD comes with a harddrive and a "memory expansion unit" - also a few 8" disks. ----- Original Message ----- To: Catskill Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 12:24 AM Subject: Re: Old Working Computer On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Catskill wrote: > One vintage Tandy 6000 in very good working order for the price of > shipping it to you if you are interested. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details! From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Feb 28 03:22:24 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: RT-11 version 2 manual available... Message-ID: Hi all, I finally got the rest of the RT-11v2 System Reference Manual online tonight: http://www.prinsol.com/~aaron/classiccmp/rt11v2manual/ I haven't had time to put together the rest yet (appendices, etc.) and I also have release notes from Fortran IV and some other stuff to put up. Also in the works are a couple of handbooks and the like, an IBM System/360 Fortran IV manual, some older SunOS docs...and whatever else I can find around here to scan. Cheers, Aaron :wq From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Feb 28 07:56:26 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? Message-ID: <13527306955.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> You know, I've been told it's painful, but is it dangerous? I just told another group about the supply I have (It outputs 110AC, 30hz, .06 amp), and realized it's 110. Isn't that dangerous? If I really did zap my kid brother with it, would it just hurt or could it really HURT him? ------- From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Feb 28 08:25:25 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <13527306955.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: Treat is with respect. Under the worng condition it could be serious, under the best it's very nasty. I've been caught by that a few times and it's the 30hz that I find worse. Allison On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > You know, I've been told it's painful, but is it dangerous? > I just told another group about the supply I have (It outputs 110AC, 30hz, > .06 amp), and realized it's 110. Isn't that dangerous? If I really did zap > my kid brother with it, would it just hurt or could it really HURT him? > ------- > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Feb 28 09:00:51 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <13527306955.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000228070051.00944ad0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 05:56 28-02-2000 -0800, you wrote: >You know, I've been told it's painful, but is it dangerous? Any voltage along those lines can be dangerous if it passes through the chest. My understanding is that it takes less than 20mA of current flow to kill a person. Be safe rather than sorry. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From edick at idcomm.com Mon Feb 28 09:55:33 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? Message-ID: <001001bf8204$3fb26840$0400c0a8@winbook> The ringing voltage is over 250 volts peak-to-peak but at a high enough voltage to make you jerk your hand away if you touch it. The voltage range that's most dangerous is from 25volts to about 60 volts, as it won't make you jerk your hand (or other body part) away, yet it is capable of disrupting normal operation of the cardio-vascular system. I've never seen a precise write-up of what it takes to kill you, but I'd avoid contact with voltages such as this just to avoid the pain. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, February 28, 2000 8:25 AM Subject: Re: Is ringing voltage dangerous? >At 05:56 28-02-2000 -0800, you wrote: > >>You know, I've been told it's painful, but is it dangerous? > > > > Any voltage along those lines can be dangerous if it passes through the >chest. My understanding is that it takes less than 20mA of current flow to >kill a person. > > Be safe rather than sorry. > > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Mon Feb 28 10:06:17 2000 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: RT-11 version 2 manual available... In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Feb 28, 2000 01:22:24 AM Message-ID: <200002281606.IAA04391@fraser.sfu.ca> Yahoo! I need RT-11 docs of any kind! Thanks, Aaron. Kevin > > > Hi all, > > I finally got the rest of the RT-11v2 System Reference Manual online > tonight: > > http://www.prinsol.com/~aaron/classiccmp/rt11v2manual/ > > I haven't had time to put together the rest yet (appendices, etc.) and I > also have release notes from Fortran IV and some other stuff to put up. > Also in the works are a couple of handbooks and the like, an IBM > System/360 Fortran IV manual, some older SunOS docs...and whatever else I > can find around here to scan. > > Cheers, > > Aaron > > :wq > > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Feb 28 10:30:29 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Cipher F880 Manual (copy) Available Message-ID: Hi, I've got a photocopy of the technical manual (mechanical breakdowns/etc) for a Cipher F880/C880 available to anyone who wants it. It's a professional-quality photocopy that John L. made and the original claimant didn't want. Anyone with a need can have it... Cheers, Aaron From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Feb 28 11:36:12 2000 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <13527306955.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.20000228123612.25efeb8c@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 05:56 AM 2/28/00 -0800, Danial wrote: >You know, I've been told it's painful, but is it dangerous? >I just told another group about the supply I have (It outputs 110AC, 30hz, >.06 amp), and realized it's 110. Isn't that dangerous? If I really did zap >my kid brother with it, would it just hurt or could it really HURT him? >------- > No, it'll just hurt him. It'll sure get his attention though! I've been shocked by them dozens of times. FWIW the normal (US) telephone ringing voltage is only 48 volts or so. The old telephones and military field phones with the hand cranks with put out over 100 volts. Those hurt! Joe From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Feb 28 12:09:10 2000 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.20000228123612.25efeb8c@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <13527306955.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000228100236.03fcb100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 12:36 PM 2/28/00 -0500, you wrote: >At 05:56 AM 2/28/00 -0800, Danial wrote: >>You know, I've been told it's painful, but is it dangerous? >>I just told another group about the supply I have (It outputs 110AC, 30hz, >>.06 amp), and realized it's 110. Isn't that dangerous? If I really did zap >>my kid brother with it, would it just hurt or could it really HURT him? >>------- >> > > No, it'll just hurt him. It'll sure get his attention though! Bzzzt! And thanks for playing. Electricity screws up a variety of things in the human body, the brain, the heart, etc. All due to the interaction of electricity with nerves. You can kill someone with a couple of microamps in the right spot, then again 10,000V from a static electricity build up is just a 'snap.' The bottom line is current flowing through and around nerves and there isn't a very good SPICE model for a human. However, lots of things can change the situation: 1) Is there a good conductive path for the electricity? 2) What freqency is the signal? 3) How much current does the base signal have? And how long can it keep that going? 4) What is the "ground reference" for the circuit, where is ground relative to the point of entry? 5) What is the blood sugar level of the victim? The bottom line is, "Don't zap your kid brother, as tempting as that is, because the down side (death, or permanent disability) is too great." --Chuck From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Feb 28 12:09:19 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <001001bf8204$3fb26840$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've never seen a precise write-up of what it takes to kill you, but I'd > avoid contact with voltages such as this just to avoid the pain. Over the years BYTE, PopularElectronics, RadioElectonics and many texts (none I have) have covered it. the key element is NOT Voltage but, the current flow it can induce through a largely resistive body. The currents range from about 60MA (considered deadly if across the chest) to 20uA which is down around the threshold level. Also DC vs AC and what frequency the effects vary. HF(above several MHZ) AC for example is more likely to cause burns before muscle spasms. RULE 1, unless the voltage is very low it _can_ be dangerous. Low is hard number be exact about but, over 12-30V is the watch out zone. RULE 2, All efforts are to be made to avoid crossing the heart or chest as a possible path for safety. One hand in pocket rule is derived from this. RULE 3, if you not sure, make sure. get a meter and find out if it's live and how hot hot is. Over the years working with RF and transmitters I've been hit with RF and DC to 1800V (ouch!) and LF AC power to 200V/400hz. Some were annoying, a few painful, one nearly bluecrossed me and the better ones left scars (and a willingness to NOT stick fingers in). Allison From kmar at lle.rochester.edu Mon Feb 28 12:34:48 2000 From: kmar at lle.rochester.edu (Ken Marshall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Sony SMC-70 info In-Reply-To: <38BA0369.9A4E915A@infinet.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20000228133256.00aba930@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> Jeff: Somewhere at home I have a users manual for the SMC-70. If I can find it, I can make you a photocopy if you're intersted. Regards, At 12:11 AM 02/28/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Hi all... > >I am still looking for any information I can find on a Sony SMC-70. User >Manual, pinout diagrams etc. Any info would be appreciated. I have CP/M >disks. > >tia >jeff duncan Kenneth L. Marshall Research Engineer, Optical Materials Laboratory for Laser Energetics University of Rochester 250 East River Road Rochester, NY 14623 Phone:(716)-275-8247 Fax: (716)-275-5960 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 28 13:24:33 2000 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <001001bf8204$3fb26840$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: The recurring spec that I keep seeing is 20 Hz at 90V. I don't know whether that is peak to peak or RMS. Most phones will respond to a wide range, and there are almost certainly different specs used in different places. Yes, it DOES bite. In the right special cicumstances, it COULD kill, but death is unlikely. Zapping your kid brother is NOT a good idea. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The ringing voltage is over 250 volts peak-to-peak but at a high enough > voltage to make you jerk your hand away if you touch it. The voltage range > that's most dangerous is from 25volts to about 60 volts, as it won't make > you jerk your hand (or other body part) away, yet it is capable of > disrupting normal operation of the cardio-vascular system. > > I've never seen a precise write-up of what it takes to kill you, but I'd > avoid contact with voltages such as this just to avoid the pain. > > Dick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Lane > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, February 28, 2000 8:25 AM > Subject: Re: Is ringing voltage dangerous? > > > >At 05:56 28-02-2000 -0800, you wrote: > > > >>You know, I've been told it's painful, but is it dangerous? > > > > > > > > Any voltage along those lines can be dangerous if it passes through the > >chest. My understanding is that it takes less than 20mA of current flow to > >kill a person. > > > > Be safe rather than sorry. > > > > > > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > >http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > >Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > >own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > > -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 28 12:59:22 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <13527306955.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Feb 28, 0 05:56:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1188 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000228/af0ca486/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 28 12:50:00 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: HP2100 more minor progress In-Reply-To: <00fd01bf81a0$9e2d90c0$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Feb 27, 0 10:02:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1574 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000228/9584fe58/attachment-0001.ksh From dburrows at netpath.net Mon Feb 28 15:00:12 2000 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? Message-ID: <12c401bf822e$fc345da0$a652e780@L166> >RULE 1, unless the voltage is very low it _can_ be dangerous. Low is hard > number be exact about but, over 12-30V is the watch out zone. >RULE 2, All efforts are to be made to avoid crossing the heart or chest > as a possible path for safety. One hand in pocket rule is derived > from this. >RULE 3, if you not sure, make sure. get a meter and find out if it's live > and how hot hot is. I just want to add a rule - Don't always trust what the meter says. I took 1950 v from an electron multiplier supply because the meter read around 40 volts. There was a common failure mode of this supply that it would shut down to 40 v. Instead of walking around to shut it off before disconnecting the meter (after all the supply was dead right? ) I just disconnected the meter. Surprise the supply was good and the meter was dead. I almost was also. I had severe cramps in that arm and shoulder for almost 2 days. Dan >Over the years working with RF and transmitters I've been hit with RF and >DC to 1800V (ouch!) and LF AC power to 200V/400hz. Some were annoying, >a few painful, one nearly bluecrossed me and the better ones left scars >(and a willingness to NOT stick fingers in). > > >Allison > > From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Feb 28 15:31:31 2000 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: About the ringing voltage question... Message-ID: <13527389801.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> No, I wasn't really gonna zap my kid brother! That was a hypothetical question. I was more worried about zapping myself, and I try to follow the one-hand-in your-pocket rule whenever I can. I know better than to zap anyone with anything I wouldn't zap myself with. (But a good shot of signal voltage (+28VDC, 2 amps) across his earlobes next time he gets out of the shower is very tempting! J/K!) Oh, and the 9V battery story, I got told it was a Navy guy who fell on his voltmeter probes. It's probably another urban legend. ------- From af-list at wfi-inc.com Mon Feb 28 15:44:58 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Cipher F880 Manual (copy) Available In-Reply-To: <000201bf820e$c709bb40$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: I didn't expect such a response for this! Tell you what I'll do, since I don't really have the proper facilites for making good copies of the extended pages...I'll just scan it and post it within the next couple of days to the web site. BTW, the actual nice paper copy I have was spoken for within 5 minutes or so of my original post... Cheers, Aaron From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Feb 28 16:22:10 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <001001bf8204$3fb26840$0400c0a8@winbook>; from edick@idcomm.com on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:55:33AM -0700 References: <001001bf8204$3fb26840$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <20000228172210.B25177@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:55:33AM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The ringing voltage is over 250 volts peak-to-peak but at a high enough > voltage to make you jerk your hand away if you touch it. The voltage range > that's most dangerous is from 25volts to about 60 volts, as it won't make > you jerk your hand (or other body part) away, yet it is capable of > disrupting normal operation of the cardio-vascular system. I guess it depends on a lot. When I was in 6th grade I tried to build my own inverter, using a 12V lantern battery and a buzzer in series with the secondary of a doorbell transformer. Didn't get 110V like I was hoping but it gave off a nice 50 V according to my voltmeter (the finest that $8.95 would buy at Shack!). So being the well-adjusted, popular kid I was, I installed the whole mess in a lunch box and went to school and zapped everyone who didn't jump out of the way fast enough! No real ill effects (well I think I got punched a few times for some reason, but that's different), but I suspect the key was that it was probably a pretty low duty cycle, and more importantly I used a normal 110V cord and plug for the 50V end, so it was being applied to only 1/2" of skin, as opposed to going in one arm and out the other etc. Naturally my friends (the few I had left after that) wanted in, so they put together high voltage lunch boxes too. One friend's father worked for an electronics company (General Scanning in Watertown, MA, I never really understood what they make though) and used to hang around there after school, and one of the engineers liked the idea and put together a little transistor inverter circuit for him which got 170 V instead of 50. The engineer wisely put a big series resistor on so no one got hurt by that either, it bit a lot harder though, and the kid was able to fool people into getting into range because at least *his* lunch box wasn't loudly buzzing! Anyway in retrospect, this was all insanely dangerous, because it *really* depends on how good a connection you get, how dry the person's skin is, whether they have any unknown heart problems, etc. I've *heard* that it's possible to build up a resistance to this kind of thing but that sounds pretty fishy to me, it's not that kind of thing. I think it's more just hit and miss, I've zapped myself with all kinds of voltages as I'm sure most people on this list have, but still you occasionally hear of someone being killed by some pitiful amount just because it caught them the wrong way. Did anyone see the tape a few months ago on 60 Minutes or Dateline or whatever, showing the two founders of a company that sells "air tasers" demonstrate their supposed safety by shooting each other with them? I was impressed, it looked a no-kidding-around shock... And the needles have gotta hurt too, unless I misunderstood that part. I assume it's high frequency or uses short pulses or something though. And the nice thing about small shots of really high voltages is, charred skin doesn't conduct nearly as well! Built-in fail safe system... well maybe not! John Wilson D Bit From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Feb 28 16:19:11 2000 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: RT-11 version 2 manual available... References: Message-ID: <38BAF45F.23C89A51@idirect.com> >Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > I finally got the rest of the RT-11v2 System Reference Manual online > tonight: > http://www.prinsol.com/~aaron/classiccmp/rt11v2manual/ Jerome Fine replies: Thank you for your efforts. Any old RT-11 manuals are appreciated. Now, does anyone have any V2.x distributions? Also, I downloaded one of the files and it is just a bunch of funny characters. I am using W95 and I am at the less than dummy level. Can you please help? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From dogas at leading.net Mon Feb 28 16:10:27 2000 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Am2901 sbc Message-ID: <000601bf8238$a158e400$ca646464@dogclient01> I snapped a few cheesy shots of the AMD sbc but my camera is flaking out and the imaging is marginal. However, http://users.leading.net/~dogas/am2901.gif shows the entire board, and http://users.leading.net/~dogas/am2901display.gif zooms in a little on the LED displays.. Cheers - Mike: dogas@leading.net From red at bears.org Mon Feb 28 17:12:16 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Symbolics Message-ID: Howdy; I've long been intrigued by Symbolics LISP machines and I finally had the opportunity to get one to poke at. (English grammar now requires me to point out that I took advantage of that opportunity. (: ) I've been thumbing through some of the docs to get a better idea of how things work, which effort has lead me to two questions: 1) Where am I likely to find a mouse for this beast? I haven't one and it appears as though the environment expects to use one. 2) Can the FEP software be loaded onto a virgin disk by someone other than Symbolics? The disk in my system may have problems, and as near as I can tell the machines arrived new with at least a bare modicum of software on the disk. Inquiring minds want to know. ok r. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 28 16:27:15 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <12c401bf822e$fc345da0$a652e780@L166> from "Daniel T. Burrows" at Feb 28, 0 04:00:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1789 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000228/71a65722/attachment-0001.ksh From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Feb 28 17:34:21 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Cipher F880 Manual (copy) Available In-Reply-To: ; from af-list@wfi-inc.com on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 01:44:58PM -0800 References: <000201bf820e$c709bb40$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> Message-ID: <20000228183421.A25433@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 01:44:58PM -0800, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > I didn't expect such a response for this! Tell you what I'll do, since I > don't really have the proper facilites for making good copies of the > extended pages...I'll just scan it and post it within the next couple of > days to the web site. Wonderful, thank you!!! John Wilson D Bit From John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com Mon Feb 28 17:36:08 2000 From: John.Allain at donnelley.infousa.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <20000228172210.B25177@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <000201bf8244$97c5e8a0$0e0301ac@dba00802.databaseamerica.com> I just want to thank John W. for his nice post. Did this make anyone recall the movie** where the guy builds up so high a resistance to electricity (actually an appetite) that the little lightbulb goes off over his head and he says 'Great, I can do anything, and they'll just give me the Electric Chair' the ide being that it would just feed him. **Man Made Monster (1941) http://us.imdb.com/Title?0033879 Back to topic, I have a relative that also has built shock machines at points throughout his life. No problems to report, but I'll have to withhold names,voltages,amperages and design factors since the lawyers out there are getting powerful. John A. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Feb 28 17:44:09 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: Eric Smith "Re: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO)" (Feb 24, 21:15) References: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> <20000224211549.16030.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 24, 21:15, Eric Smith wrote: > Hans wrote: > > What's proper or not is a matter of opinion, and in my mind > > open relays are a basic part of the mail system. > > Can you cite any legitimate use for a completely open relay? I can't > think of any. Lacking such examples, I agree with Scott G. Taylor's > statement: > > The simple fact-of-the-matter is, open relays are wrong. My ISP runs two SMTP mail servers, one open, the other not; for a very good reason. A large number of customers travel across Europe, and it is not practical for them to always dial the ISP at international rates. Hence, there are a number of agreements between several ISPs in several European countries, which allow customers registered with one ISP to use the points-of-presence of another. However, the roaming user typically wants to keep his normal email address (ie, have mail appear to originate from his normal address). To do so, he must either use his "home" server despite his temporary IP address/hostname not matching that server's domain (which would look like an attempted forgery to a spam-blocking server) or must use the "local" server and forge the sender address (which would also fail on any normal spam-blocking server). This practice is quite widespread in Europe. Jay's use of MAPS doesn't bother me, because I can (almost) always use the blocking server, and I expect that for most roaming users the inconvenience is minimal. However, until there's a sensible system to deal with roaming users' need to send mail as well as receive it, there will be open relays. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon Feb 28 18:27:52 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: ; from r. 'bear' stricklin on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 06:12:16PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20000228172752.B3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 06:12:16PM -0500, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > I've long been intrigued by Symbolics LISP machines and I finally had the > opportunity to get one to poke at. (English grammar now requires me to > point out that I took advantage of that opportunity. (: ) Neato. Not sure I've ever seen one... can you put up some pictures? I heard they had nice keyboards with unshifted keys for all the bracket variations (<[{) so you don't have to keep hitting shifted-numbers all the time in lisp. Didn't know they used a GUI though. Is it X window or something special? Do they still have performance advantages over less specialized systems? What kind of hardware modifications would optimize execution of Lisp? -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed processing. http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From edick at idcomm.com Mon Feb 28 18:29:02 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? Message-ID: <000c01bf824b$fb0c2b20$0400c0a8@winbook> These comments are clearly made by someone who has experience with this matter! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, February 28, 2000 4:40 PM Subject: Re: Is ringing voltage dangerous? >> >> >> >RULE 1, unless the voltage is very low it _can_ be dangerous. Low is hard >> > number be exact about but, over 12-30V is the watch out zone. >> >RULE 2, All efforts are to be made to avoid crossing the heart or chest >> > as a possible path for safety. One hand in pocket rule is derived >> > from this. >> >RULE 3, if you not sure, make sure. get a meter and find out if it's live >> > and how hot hot is. >> >> >> I just want to add a rule - Don't always trust what the meter says. I took > >I believe that when working on live power lines and other circuits >carrying dangerous voltages, you test the meter on a known HV source, >then you test the line, then you test the meter again on said known HV >source. Then, normally, you connect the power line to earth, assuming >it's shown to be dead. And only then do you touch it. > >Some HV meters used for this sort of thing have a 'proving unit' (a small >PSU that gives out a few kV at a minimal current, running off batteries) >in the carrying case for these tests. > >> 1950 v from an electron multiplier supply because the meter read around 40 >> volts. There was a common failure mode of this supply that it would shut >> down to 40 v. Instead of walking around to shut it off before > >Ouch!. That's not pleasant :-(. Oh, and never trust indicator lamps (they >can burn out), and never trust on/off switches to isolate something. Pull >the mains plug and put it where you can see it (or some idiot will plug >it in again). > >I'll add another 'rule'... When you are sure something is not live, brush >it with the back of your finger. If, by some strange chance it _is_ still >live, your finger will be thrown off. Touch it with the front of your >finger and you'll be forced into better contact with it. > >-tony > From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon Feb 28 18:35:44 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com>; from Pete Turnbull on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 11:44:09PM +0000 References: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> <20000224211549.16030.qmail@brouhaha.com> <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20000228173544.C3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 11:44:09PM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > until there's a sensible system to deal with roaming users' need to send > mail as well as receive it, there will be open relays. There is an RFC for a roaming IP scheme that allows you to get the same address even when plugging into a "foreign" network. However I've yet to see a working implementation of it anywhere. Seemed like a good idea. At one point there was talk in the ham community of using this method to give the Mir continuous connectivity via an array of amateur packet stations around the globe but I don't think it actually got done (and it's too late now). -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed processing. http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From edick at idcomm.com Mon Feb 28 18:39:33 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? Message-ID: <002d01bf824d$7377ffc0$0400c0a8@winbook> Careful, Joe . . . the ring voltage spec I remember said it was about 128 volts AC centered about the battery voltage, which is conventionally -48 volts. That's where the 80-volts at 20 hertz comes from, since that's what you see by way of a rectifier diode. That's not a true sinusoid, though, it's the humps from a sinusoid rectified to ground when the median of the sinusoid is at -48Vdc. I don't really know that this can kill or even harm you in some other major way, but it's unpleasant enough that it makes sense to avoid it. That urge to pull my hand out of the box when I'm bitten by a higher voltage than I like is what's made me unwilling to work on TV sets with their puched chassis, etc. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, February 28, 2000 9:45 AM Subject: Re: Is ringing voltage dangerous? >At 05:56 AM 2/28/00 -0800, Danial wrote: >>You know, I've been told it's painful, but is it dangerous? >>I just told another group about the supply I have (It outputs 110AC, 30hz, >>.06 amp), and realized it's 110. Isn't that dangerous? If I really did zap >>my kid brother with it, would it just hurt or could it really HURT him? >>------- >> > > No, it'll just hurt him. It'll sure get his attention though! I've been >shocked by them dozens of times. FWIW the normal (US) telephone ringing >voltage is only 48 volts or so. The old telephones and military field >phones with the hand cranks with put out over 100 volts. Those hurt! > > Joe > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 28 18:40:43 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: Re: Symbolics (Shawn T. Rutledge) References: <20000228172752.B3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <14523.5515.346231.666526@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 28, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > Do they still have performance advantages over less specialized systems? > What kind of hardware modifications would optimize execution of Lisp? Hmm...what processor instructions might one create to deal with a language with more parens than actual code? ;) -Dave McGuire From spc at armigeron.com Mon Feb 28 18:35:45 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:54 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Feb 28, 2000 11:44:09 PM Message-ID: <200002290035.TAA27385@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Pete Turnbull once stated: > > > Can you cite any legitimate use for a completely open relay? I can't > > think of any. Lacking such examples, I agree with Scott G. Taylor's > > statement: > > > The simple fact-of-the-matter is, open relays are wrong. > > My ISP runs two SMTP mail servers, one open, the other not; for a very good > reason. A large number of customers travel across Europe, and it is not > practical for them to always dial the ISP at international rates. Hiway (a subsidiary of Verio and their primary web hosting division) set up a system whereby you have to check your mail first before sending. They have a modified POP server that records the IP address of the person requesting their mail. Sendmail will then allow relaying from that IP address for a period of time before being disallowed again. Since most people check their email before sending, it's not that inconvienent to use. Something similar could probably be set up. -spc From donm at cts.com Mon Feb 28 19:13:22 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Is ringing voltage dangerous? In-Reply-To: <20000228172210.B25177@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, John Wilson wrote: > On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:55:33AM -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > The ringing voltage is over 250 volts peak-to-peak but at a high enough > > voltage to make you jerk your hand away if you touch it. The voltage range > > that's most dangerous is from 25volts to about 60 volts, as it won't make > > you jerk your hand (or other body part) away, yet it is capable of > > disrupting normal operation of the cardio-vascular system. > > I guess it depends on a lot. When I was in 6th grade I tried to build my own > inverter, using a 12V lantern battery and a buzzer in series with the secondary > of a doorbell transformer. Didn't get 110V like I was hoping but it gave > off a nice 50 V according to my voltmeter (the finest that $8.95 would buy > at Shack!). So being the well-adjusted, popular kid I was, I installed the > whole mess in a lunch box and went to school and zapped everyone who didn't > jump out of the way fast enough! No real ill effects (well I think I got > punched a few times for some reason, but that's different), but I suspect the > key was that it was probably a pretty low duty cycle, and more importantly > I used a normal 110V cord and plug for the 50V end, so it was being applied > to only 1/2" of skin, as opposed to going in one arm and out the other etc. All of this reminds me that when I was in high school there were a few of us that did some similar type things with a Model T spark coil - the old buzz box thing. We made a haywire installation in a car with the high tension lead connected to the car's bodywork and a ground lead trailing on the pavement or ground. Power to the thing was controlled by a push button switch. It was rather fun - we thought - to wait until someone placed a hand on the bodywork or, better yet, parked their fanny on a fender. The rest is left as an exercise for the student. But, even better was to ease up behind another car until bumpers touched and wait until the driver returned to board and was about to touch the door handle. ZAP! We did not continue too long as word spread rather rapidly! Oh yes, there was also the dog that elected to relieve himself on one of the wheels... - don > Naturally my friends (the few I had left after that) wanted in, so they > put together high voltage lunch boxes too. One friend's father worked for > an electronics company (General Scanning in Watertown, MA, I never really > understood what they make though) and used to hang around there after school, > and one of the engineers liked the idea and put together a little transistor > inverter circuit for him which got 170 V instead of 50. The engineer wisely > put a big series resistor on so no one got hurt by that either, it bit a lot > harder though, and the kid was able to fool people into getting into range > because at least *his* lunch box wasn't loudly buzzing! > > Anyway in retrospect, this was all insanely dangerous, because it *really* > depends on how good a connection you get, how dry the person's skin is, > whether they have any unknown heart problems, etc. I've *heard* that it's > possible to build up a resistance to this kind of thing but that sounds > pretty fishy to me, it's not that kind of thing. I think it's more just > hit and miss, I've zapped myself with all kinds of voltages as I'm sure > most people on this list have, but still you occasionally hear of someone > being killed by some pitiful amount just because it caught them the wrong > way. > > Did anyone see the tape a few months ago on 60 Minutes or Dateline or whatever, > showing the two founders of a company that sells "air tasers" demonstrate > their supposed safety by shooting each other with them? I was impressed, > it looked a no-kidding-around shock... And the needles have gotta hurt too, > unless I misunderstood that part. I assume it's high frequency or uses short > pulses or something though. And the nice thing about small shots of really > high voltages is, charred skin doesn't conduct nearly as well! Built-in > fail safe system... well maybe not! > > John Wilson > D Bit > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Feb 28 19:25:20 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: DSL Coming -- I may need help! Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Yes, I consider this on-topic because two of my intranet's servers will be MicroVAX III's. ;-) After much fencing with my local telco over loop lengths, and a snail-mail letter asking them why their competition (AT&T and Covad) were willing to do what they were not (at the time), I have a due date for my DSL connection! It'll be (minimum) 256K up/downstream guaranteed, and those rates could fluctuate a bit depending on the usual variables. This means that, shortly thereafter, I'll be taking full control of my own domain, including all servers, and (finally!) starting to set up what I hope will be a very useful FTP and web site for anyone who futzes with "classic" computing or electronic equipment (ham radio stuff included). This won't happen overnight! It's going to take some time to build up the thing the way I want it to be. With that in mind, I have a request: Those of you who are fluent with setting up servers (Unix/NetBSD-based) on a small intranet, and tying said intranet through a Livingston IRX/Firewall router to the outside world, AND that would be willing to help me keep from making too many mistakes in setting things up, please raise your hand and let me know if I can contact you periodically for help and advice. FWIW, I plan to have: Two DNS, two mail (for redundancy/fault tolerance), single news/FTP box combined, and a single web server. My current setup is on one of the InterNIC-reserved Class C net spaces: 192.168.42.0 - 192.168.42.254. The DSL "modem" (a misnomer if I ever saw one) will be a Cisco 675. Its Ethernet port will tie to one side of the Livingston router. Said router will provide firewalling and packet-filtering capabilities that the Cisco lacks. The Livingston will also provide NAT services to translate the five static IPs I get from USWest onto the private network side. I plan to use my own pair of DNS servers as primary and secondary hosts for my domain, with USWest acting as tertiary. The DNS boxes will be old Sun IPC's. They've already been configured. Thanks much! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Mon Feb 28 19:25:26 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <14523.5515.346231.666526@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from Dave McGuire on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 07:40:43PM -0500 References: <20000228172752.B3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <14523.5515.346231.666526@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000228182526.H3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 07:40:43PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On February 28, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > > Do they still have performance advantages over less specialized systems? > > What kind of hardware modifications would optimize execution of Lisp? > > Hmm...what processor instructions might one create to deal with a > language with more parens than actual code? ;) I doubt that is an issue... I've never written a lisp interpreter (wish I'd had one of those CS classes where they do that) but I'd guess the ASCII source code gets tokenized into some kind of tree structure which is probably interpreted by doing a tree traversal, so the parens are all gone by that point (they just tell it how to build the tree). But I can't think of any hardware optimizations that help with trees, other than the concept of a "stack", which is hardly a new one. Evidently there are some though. -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed processing. http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Feb 28 18:53:54 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> (pete@dunnington.u-net.com) References: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> <20000224211549.16030.qmail@brouhaha.com> <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20000229005354.12898.qmail@brouhaha.com> Pete writes: > My ISP runs two SMTP mail servers, one open, the other not; for a very good > reason. A large number of customers travel across Europe, and it is not > practical for them to always dial the ISP at international rates. Hence, This can be solved by having your POP or IMAP daemon open up temporary access to your SMTP server from the roaming IP address after the POP or IMAP connection is authenticated. This is what I do for some of my users. If you use qmail there's a readymade program available, but it should be easy to set it up for Sendmail. Another approach is for the "roaming" relay to only accept email with both envelope sender and from headers of legitimate customers. This isn't as secure, but is still much better than a wide-open relay. If a spammer discovers the relay by scanning IP addresses for SMTP ports, they still won't be able to use it unless they also can determine who the legitimate users of that SMTP server are. IMNSHO, the disadvantages of the open relay *far* outweigh the benefit. > However, until there's a sensible system to deal with roaming users' need to > send mail as well as receive it, there will be open relays. Lots of sites are starting to refuse mail from open relays. Your ISP is going to have to come up with a better solution. From red at bears.org Mon Feb 28 19:40:31 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <20000228172752.B3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > Not sure I've ever seen one... can you put up some pictures? Yes, I had planned to. My SLR has been cranky recently, and I needed some photos from an event I performed at so I picked up one of those single-use jobs and have been filling up the rest of the roll with stuff from my collection. Let's hope they turn out respectably. (: One of the things I wanted to accomplish is to illustrate the amazing amounts of miniaturization 13 years can see. For example, one of the photos will be of one of the 1 MW ECC memory boards next to a pair of 32 MB ECC SIMMs from an HP 715. Anyway. > I heard they had nice keyboards with unshifted keys for all the bracket > variations (<[{) so you don't have to keep hitting shifted-numbers all > the time in lisp. The parens are where they normally are (over 9 and 0), but are also available unshifted where the square brackets would normally be. The square brackets have been moved to where the curly brackets would normally be (on this keyboar, above the unshifted parens) and the curly brackets have been moved to shifted keys which are in Siberia. What I find most amusing is the sheer number of 'modifier' keys on the keyboard. Caps-lock, shift, symbol, hyper, super, meta, control, and mode-lock. Plus perhaps one or two more which work as modifiers but which I don't recognise as such. According to the docs, the keyboard has 'unlimited rollover', meaning if you hit a key, the machine takes note of it no matter how many other keys you're holding down at the time. Mind-boggling. Apparently someone saw a great need for a user to be able to type an n-bit character set directly from the keyboard, where n is some ridiculous number like 12. > Didn't know they used a GUI though. Is it X window or something special? I'm not sure, but I don't think that X11 existed at the time this machine was current in 1987. X10, maybe, but the windowing system is its own thing. Nothing too fancy. I'd put it on par with the Apollo DM in terms of the kind of functionality it attempts to provide. > Do they still have performance advantages over less specialized systems? > What kind of hardware modifications would optimize execution of Lisp? Still? I'd be surprised. According to the User's Guide to Symbolics Computers: "The power, speed, and flexibility of Symbolics processing machines result from optimizing the hardware design to match the software environment. Some of the special architecture features include: Tagged architecture Multiple caches Hardware stack management Pipelined instruction cycles Parallel processing Hardware assisted garbage collection Fully ECC'ed system memory (end of quote) I'm very intrigued by what I've learned about the system so far and am anxious to start it up and give it a try. I get the feeling that the LISPM is something of a transputer (like the parallel i860 boards that Microway used to sell which fit in an Intel PC), but with the balance of power between the transputer board and its host (LISPM and FEP, respectively) swapped around so that instead of the PC's OS hosting software which crunches away on the transputer, the OS actually runs on the LISPM, and the FEP's job is to boot the environment and then to handle I/O once the environment is running. I don't feel like I've described it very articulately, but I only vaguely understand what's going on at this point anyway. Still. It's an interesting conceptual leap! ok r. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Feb 28 18:55:03 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: <20000228173544.C3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> (rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com) References: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> <20000224211549.16030.qmail@brouhaha.com> <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20000228173544.C3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <20000229005503.12911.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Shawn T. Rutledge" wrote: > There is an RFC for a roaming IP scheme that allows you to get the same > address even when plugging into a "foreign" network. However I've yet to > see a working implementation of it anywhere. Seemed like a good idea. There are at least two working, publicly-available implementations for Linux. Neat stuff! From west at tseinc.com Mon Feb 28 19:49:00 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) References: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> <20000224211549.16030.qmail@brouhaha.com> <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <002901bf8257$2a3efd40$0101a8c0@jay> Pete wrote.... > My ISP runs two SMTP mail servers, one open, the other not; for a very good > reason. A large number of customers travel across Europe, and it is not > practical for them to always dial the ISP at international rates. Hence, > there are a number of agreements between several ISPs in several European > countries, which allow customers registered with one ISP to use the > points-of-presence of another. However, the roaming user typically wants > to keep his normal email address (ie, have mail appear to originate from > his normal address). To do so, he must either use his "home" server > despite his temporary IP address/hostname not matching that server's domain > (which would look like an attempted forgery to a spam-blocking server) or > must use the "local" server and forge the sender address (which would also > fail on any normal spam-blocking server). Open relays have NOTHING to do with the above situation - talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater - the above scenario is akin to saying "gee, I want to allow http through my firewall, so lets just open the firewall up for all ports and all services to and from anywhere". Sheesh. There are two other much more "standard" methods of allowing the above. First, the user could still check his email at his original/local provider via pop or imap, and he could send mail from the smtp server at his nonlocal/traveling provider. Second, any time an ISP sets up an agreement with another ISP to let their users roam, they could just add the roaming ISP's domain name to their sendmail.cw file to allow relaying from that domain only. The easy (and recommended) approach is to do BOTH of the above - one for inbound and one for outbound. On a properly configured pop and smtp server, neither of the above methods appear as forgeries, and neither method is blocked by any spam-blocking methods I've ever seen. Both of these situations are very easily handled by any modern mail client which lets you have more than one mail account configuration and for each account lets you specify inbound vs. outbound servers. Yes, this type of setup would cause really antique mail clients problems, but the hardware those old mail clients run on isn't exactly something portable you'd be carrying around the country . I might add also that neither of the above scenarious are problematic with MAPS either. Anyone have any other scenarious where a completely open relay is a good idea? :) Jay West From west at tseinc.com Mon Feb 28 20:13:07 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) References: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <003501bf825a$86607880$0101a8c0@jay> Bruce wrote... > connection! It'll be (minimum) 256K up/downstream guaranteed, and those > rates could fluctuate a bit depending on the usual variables. Um... you might want to check the fine print on the DSL service agreement. At least in SWBell (and I strongly suspect it's also true in other DSL carriers infrastructure) DSL speed guarantees are only from the copper jack in your house to your central office DSLAM. When your DSL traffic hits the DSLAM it is moved off from the PSTN to a cell relay ATM network, where all the DSL-offering ISP's (including SWBell if that's your ISP) actually compete for bandwidth availability. As a result, DSL speed guarantees have absolutely NOTHING to do with the internet speed you get. I won't go into examples, but I'm sure many folks here will immediately see the ramifications of this. Think of a file download where each packet comes at 256k but there's 300ms pauses between each packet! Add to this that most ISP's are implementing PPP over ATM for authentication, so there's also some minor extra overhead in addition to the above cell relay latency. Not to mention that DSL traffic is carried as UBR (unspecified bit rate) on the ATM cell relay network. This means no QOS, no commited cells, no standard ATM service classes of any kind! UBR basically means "We might get your packets there if we have absolutely nothing else to do. Then again, we might not". Just my own 2c worth. Jay West From west at tseinc.com Mon Feb 28 20:23:16 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: DSL Coming -- I may need help! References: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <004d01bf825b$f11ce220$0101a8c0@jay> Bruce wrote... > With that in mind, I have a request: Those of you who are fluent with > setting up servers (Unix/NetBSD-based) on a small intranet, and tying said > intranet through a Livingston IRX/Firewall router to the outside world, AND > that would be willing to help me keep from making too many mistakes in > setting things up, please raise your hand and let me know if I can contact > you periodically for help and advice. Bruce, I'd be happy to help. We haven't used Livingston gear for ages (we're all cisco gear now), but I still remember them pretty well. I'm very well versed with FreeBSD Unix, sendmail, wu-ftp, mysql, dns(bind), apache/stronghold, radius, etc. etc. Feel free to call me any time you have questions. Work number is 800-669-8203. Jay West From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Feb 28 21:02:12 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) Message-ID: <200002290302.WAA25268@world.std.com> Jay wrote >Bruce wrote... >> connection! It'll be (minimum) 256K up/downstream guaranteed, and those >> rates could fluctuate a bit depending on the usual variables. >Um... you might want to check the fine print on the DSL service agreement. I agree fully here! There's vast differences between DSL service from different suppliers. The el-cheapo suppliers might route all of your traffic to the other side of the continent and back before it goes anywhere. (Flashcom does this, for example.) The really good providers have real service level agreements, guaranteed time commitments, and other frills. (My DSL carrier, UUNet, will call me within a few minutes if for any reason they are unable to ping my DSL router. So whenever the power is out, or I'm just moving some wires here in the shop, I know who's going to be the first to call me.) (Another top-notch DSL provider is Savvis.) Also thoroughly check out your options in terms of multiple static IP's, etc., if this is important to you. These aren't important issues to folks who are using a PC-clone to surf the web over a DSL line, but if you want to hook older machines to your LAN to get to the outside world through DSL you do need to pay attention here. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Feb 28 21:17:32 2000 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) References: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <003501bf825a$86607880$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <38BB3A4C.37F265A5@mainecoon.com> Jay West wrote: > > Bruce wrote... > > connection! It'll be (minimum) 256K up/downstream guaranteed, and those > > rates could fluctuate a bit depending on the usual variables. > > Um... you might want to check the fine print on the DSL service agreement. > At least in SWBell (and I strongly suspect it's also true in other DSL > carriers infrastructure) [Lots of perfectly accurate stuff, deleted] To add insult to injury, here in Pac*Hell land both PB and Covad consider DSL to be a "best effort" service; if they can't get it to work they can just walk away from the deal. I won't even talk about how fragile PBI's ATM backhaul from the DSLAMs has become. Me, I'm not giving up my T1. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Feb 28 21:29:22 2000 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: DSL Coming -- I may need help! References: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <38BB3D12.17A8565F@halcyon.com> Bruce, I have US West DSL and NWNexus handles my IP for http://www.jenner.net. I have 256/256, but I am provisioned for 640/272 on a Cisoc 675. I routinely get the full download bandwidth for sites that can feed such. We probably will have a different route, but there will be a common juncture somewhere in or near Seattle, I would presume. I have one static IP and hook the 675 up to an old 386 gateway/router/ firewall running http://www.sharethenet.com. It does NAT for my internal LAN and passes selected ports to my Web, FTP, SMTP, etc. servers. It sounds like your setup will be a little different, but I would be happy to advise you about experiences with US West DSL, which I've now had for 1.5 years. And this probably isn't Off Topic, because the 386 is 10 or more years old! It shows you what you can do with a "Classic Computer" -- it's still very useful with 8MB RAM, a floppy, two NICs, and no harddrive. And Linux, of course. Dave Bruce Lane wrote: > > Yes, I consider this on-topic because two of my intranet's servers will be > MicroVAX III's. ;-) > > After much fencing with my local telco over loop lengths, and a snail-mail > letter asking them why their competition (AT&T and Covad) were willing to > do what they were not (at the time), I have a due date for my DSL > connection! It'll be (minimum) 256K up/downstream guaranteed, and those > rates could fluctuate a bit depending on the usual variables. > > This means that, shortly thereafter, I'll be taking full control of my own > domain, including all servers, and (finally!) starting to set up what I > hope will be a very useful FTP and web site for anyone who futzes with > "classic" computing or electronic equipment (ham radio stuff included). > > This won't happen overnight! It's going to take some time to build up the > thing the way I want it to be. > > With that in mind, I have a request: Those of you who are fluent with > setting up servers (Unix/NetBSD-based) on a small intranet, and tying said > intranet through a Livingston IRX/Firewall router to the outside world, AND > that would be willing to help me keep from making too many mistakes in > setting things up, please raise your hand and let me know if I can contact > you periodically for help and advice. > > FWIW, I plan to have: Two DNS, two mail (for redundancy/fault tolerance), > single news/FTP box combined, and a single web server. > > My current setup is on one of the InterNIC-reserved Class C net spaces: > 192.168.42.0 - 192.168.42.254. The DSL "modem" (a misnomer if I ever saw > one) will be a Cisco 675. Its Ethernet port will tie to one side of the > Livingston router. Said router will provide firewalling and > packet-filtering capabilities that the Cisco lacks. > > The Livingston will also provide NAT services to translate the five static > IPs I get from USWest onto the private network side. > > I plan to use my own pair of DNS servers as primary and secondary hosts > for my domain, with USWest acting as tertiary. The DNS boxes will be old > Sun IPC's. They've already been configured. > > Thanks much! > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Mon Feb 28 21:48:40 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: ; from red@bears.org on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:40:31PM -0500 References: <20000228172752.B3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <20000228224840.A25883@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:40:31PM -0500, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > What I find most amusing is the sheer number of 'modifier' keys on the > keyboard. Caps-lock, shift, symbol, hyper, super, meta, control, and > mode-lock. Plus perhaps one or two more which work as modifiers but which > I don't recognise as such. I briefly was allowed to use the Slimebolics 3600 (??) that RPI used to have, and I remember the keyboard as being completely *insane*. As in, you had to stare into the sea of keys for a while before you even noticed the QWERTY part. Really vast... And the command processor seemed to have TOPS-20-like command completion, only it was turned on all the time (not just when you press ESC) so stuff would jump in front of the cursor while you were typing (and IIRC the capitalization would be "fixed" after you went by?). All a bit florid for my tastes but anyway I certainly respect it when a project goes all out like that, it certainly *felt* a lot more luxurious than a Sun running KCL or whatever the other machines were doing. I never really got the hang of thinking in Lisp though... John Wilson D Bit From whdawson at mlynk.com Mon Feb 28 21:51:57 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: INTERSIL ICL7601CPD info needed Message-ID: <000201bf8268$534e18e0$35e3dfd0@cobweb.net> Hello all, I just obtained a box of goodies, and these Intersil ICL7601CPD 14 pin ceramic dips were in the lot. I can't seem to locate any information on them. Can anyone give me a clue? BTW, also in the box were a bunch of common NOS (mid 1970s era) TTL, 2 Zilog Z-80s, and a National Semi DT1050 Digitalker Standard Vocabulary Kit still in the original NS box in an antistat bag, along with the DT1050 docs Thanks, Bill whdawson@mlynk.com From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Feb 28 22:05:26 2000 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) In-Reply-To: <000228221510.256028be@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20000228200526.009a4a00@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:15 PM 2/28/00 -0500, you wrote: >Jay wrote >>Bruce wrote... >>> connection! It'll be (minimum) 256K up/downstream guaranteed, and those >>> rates could fluctuate a bit depending on the usual variables. >... >Also thoroughly check out your options in terms of multiple static IP's, etc., >if this is important to you. These aren't important issues to folks who are >using a PC-clone to surf the web over a DSL line, but if you want to hook >older machines to your LAN to get to the outside world through DSL you do >need to pay attention here. ...or, look into IP Masquerading. I'm running that through my Linux box, which also hosts my web server and it all runs quite well. My other Linux boxes, the occasional Windoze box, and just about anything else I drop in the net seem quite content, and it all appears as a single static IP address to the rest of the world... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Feb 28 22:05:35 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) Message-ID: <200002290405.XAA29053@world.std.com> Here it is, 24 hours down the log. I have recieved quite a few thoughtful e-mails from various Folk on this List: Thank you all. I have given even *more* thought to my situation here, in light of various developments, and will try an experiment, vizt., I will dump some of the Junk... and believe me some of it's no more than scrap.... list to follow. ;} I will place some items in a long-term storage facility that I have currently warehousing one of my oldest 'dormant' hobbies... my lovely ten-rank pipe organ, which come to think of it, would probably fit where the computers are now.... no, forget it. I will concentrate on a few systems, and NOT collect any more stuff for the nonce. The offer to sell my Vintage Computer Collection is hereby withdrawn, and again, my great "thank yous" to all who responded. It was a valuable exercise for me, if nothing else. Guess I'm a hard core mainline computer junkie. The MINC is *still* going to CCHM. sigh. Cheers John From edick at idcomm.com Mon Feb 28 23:03:35 2000 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: INTERSIL ICL7601CPD info needed Message-ID: <000801bf8272$55e7cb00$0400c0a8@winbook> Harris recently spun the Intersil division off into its own entity. Believe it or not, you may find data at www.intersil.com. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Dawson To: Classiccmp@Classiccmp. Org Date: Monday, February 28, 2000 9:00 PM Subject: INTERSIL ICL7601CPD info needed >Hello all, > >I just obtained a box of goodies, and these Intersil ICL7601CPD 14 pin >ceramic dips were in the lot. I can't seem to locate any information on >them. Can anyone give me a clue? > >BTW, also in the box were a bunch of common NOS (mid 1970s era) TTL, 2 Zilog >Z-80s, and a National Semi DT1050 Digitalker Standard Vocabulary Kit still >in the original NS box in an antistat bag, along with the DT1050 docs > >Thanks, > >Bill > >whdawson@mlynk.com > > From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 28 11:03:49 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Rejuvenating VT320 monitors? References: Message-ID: <003601bf8238$73fb6d20$8ce893c3@proteus> Hi Tony, >....And the most likely cause of that is a shorted flyback >transformer.... >....Seen it dozens of times.... Thanks, it's what I feared....I was kind of hoping it would be something else. > Pull the case and look at the flyback transformer.... >....Most likely it'll be visibly cracked! The unit is currently at the bottom of a (large) pile of pending projects, I've gotta pull some stuff from that pile this week so I'll drag it out and take a look. I've got several other 320/330/340's so it's not exactly a top priority IYKWIM? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 28 11:07:43 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard References: <034701bf7cdc$e87b3060$0fea93c3@proteus>; <200002220540.XAA08286@garcon.laidbak.com> <018a01bf7d69$4b358520$59eb93c3@proteus> <20000222133554.B6016@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <003701bf8238$74c4d7a0$8ce893c3@proteus> Hi, > ESC should definitely be on the left.... >....whereas if it's next to the "1" it's not as far a >reach in the first place. I kind of like it situated next to the "1", but I suppose that's because most of the systems/terminals I've used over the years had it there. Actually, having it at the top left corner of the numeric pad is surprisingly handy. My 84-key AT keyboard has it there, I didn't like it at first but soon got to appreciate it's presence there. :-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Mon Feb 28 11:48:35 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Top 10: Best laptop keyboard References: <200002230355.VAA22275@garcon.laidbak.com> Message-ID: <003801bf8238$77072680$8ce893c3@proteus> Hi Paul, > I guess it's personal preference, but I don't like the >128/Plus keyboards as much. Felt sorta weird to me. IKWYM, the keys seem to travel an awful long way before they register. Might be my typing style, but my fingers start aching after I've used the keyboard for a while. I still quite like it though for some reason.... >....And I'm still not that fond of the extended boards.... I've only used one a few times on a friend's machine. Seemed OK. Probably my only criticism was that the keys didn't travel far enough.... :-)) I know....I tend to judge all keyboards by my trusty 1985 AT keyboard nowadays.... >>....Toshiba T3100SX (for which I need a working power controller >>PCB) > >....but it wouldn't have helped you any. I tried to power it up for >fun, and nothing but the smell of previously toasted electronics.... Yep, from what I've been able to find out the power controller is notorious for failing in these machines. And you don't want to know what Toshiba want for a replacement board.... Unfortunately I don't have the schematics and since it uses several proprietary Toshiba chips (at least two MCUs I understand) I can't really make much of a stab at fixing it....not to mention that it's mostly SMD technology.... :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From whdawson at mlynk.com Mon Feb 28 23:39:42 2000 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: INTERSIL ICL7601CPD info needed In-Reply-To: <000801bf8272$55e7cb00$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <000f01bf8277$618098c0$35e3dfd0@cobweb.net> -> Harris recently spun the Intersil division off into its own -> entity. Believe -> it or not, you may find data at www.intersil.com. -> -> Dick Thanks Dick, but that was only the first of many sites I tried. Lots of information on the 7660 (how well I remember that one, used it in a couple of designs). I wish I knew where my old Intersil data book went. Bill -> -> >Hello all, -> > -> >I just obtained a box of goodies, and these Intersil ICL7601CPD 14 pin -> >ceramic dips were in the lot. I can't seem to locate any information on -> >them. Can anyone give me a clue? -> > -> >BTW, also in the box were a bunch of common NOS (mid 1970s era) TTL, 2 -> Zilog -> >Z-80s, and a National Semi DT1050 Digitalker Standard -> Vocabulary Kit still -> >in the original NS box in an antistat bag, along with the DT1050 docs -> > -> >Thanks, -> > -> >Bill -> > -> >whdawson@mlynk.com -> > -> > -> From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 29 00:09:48 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) In-Reply-To: <003501bf825a$86607880$0101a8c0@jay> References: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000228220948.00966d70@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 20:13 28-02-2000 -0600, you wrote: >Not to mention that DSL traffic is carried as UBR (unspecified bit rate) on >the ATM cell relay network. This means no QOS, no commited cells, no >standard ATM service classes of any kind! UBR basically means "We might get >your packets there if we have absolutely nothing else to do. Then again, we >might not". So what am I supposed to do? I want control of my own servers, and I can neither afford nor justify a frame relay private circuit. Also, I have to wonder about something. If everything you say is true, you are implying also that DSL service stinks. If that's truly the case, why has it become such a runaway success? I think I'll wait to see how it actually performs before I slap it down. I'm not committed to any type of minimum service contract, so I really don't have a lot to lose. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 29 00:13:09 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) In-Reply-To: <000228221510.256028be@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000228221309.00968200@mail.bluefeathertech.com> >I agree fully here! There's vast differences between DSL service from >different suppliers. The el-cheapo suppliers might route all of your Let me clarify: The DSL service AND Internet pipe are going to both be provided by USWest. I have read consumer-produced reviews of both. The impression I get from those is that the service is worth it -- quite speedy, etc. -- but their tech support could use some work. This is no different than what I currently have, so I'm not really losing much (if anything). >Also thoroughly check out your options in terms of multiple static IP's, etc., Read my original message. I get five usable static IPs, and three others that are reserved for DNS. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Feb 29 01:15:07 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000228220948.00966d70@mail.bluefeathertech.com>; from kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 10:09:48PM -0800 References: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <003501bf825a$86607880$0101a8c0@jay> <3.0.5.32.20000228220948.00966d70@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <20000229021507.A26387@dbit.dbit.com> On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 10:09:48PM -0800, Bruce Lane wrote: > Also, I have to wonder about something. If everything you say is true, you > are implying also that DSL service stinks. If that's truly the case, why > has it become such a runaway success? (I don't have DSL but...) I think the point is that the quality varies and there are no guarantees. I have a friend who moved to Ann Arbor, MI, a year or so ago (since moved on to Redmond, WA, the horror!) and he went out of his way to choose an apartment based on it being in a DSL service area. Apparently for the first several months he had the line, it was *far* slower than a dialup modem connection. There was just something freakishly wrong with it, but it did eventually get the bytes through so of course, he still had to pay his bill. Eventually the phone co. tweaked something and got decent performance out of it but he wasn't too happy. I have Road Runner here (the Albany NY area was one of the test markets so we got it way early, our payback seems to be, no DSL even though everyone else in the world has that already), and it's another one of these things with wonderful theoretical max numbers, but the real-life numbers are all over the place. Sometimes I can get 200 KByte/second FTP speeds, other times it's so slow that my telnet connections drop. And I love the fact that when I connect from my home Linux box to dbit.com, the connection goes from here, to Boston, to New Jersey, then finally to dbit.com which is located at the ISP two blocks from my house. So I guess they're too cheap to make *real* routing deals. John Wilson D Bit From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 29 01:12:02 2000 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: Re: Symbolics (Shawn T. Rutledge) References: <20000228172752.B3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <14523.5515.346231.666526@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20000228182526.H3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <14523.28994.177600.899382@phaduka.neurotica.com> On February 28, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > > Hmm...what processor instructions might one create to deal with a > > language with more parens than actual code? ;) > > I doubt that is an issue... I've never written a lisp interpreter (wish > I'd had one of those CS classes where they do that) but I'd guess the > ASCII source code gets tokenized into some kind of tree structure which > is probably interpreted by doing a tree traversal, so the parens are all > gone by that point (they just tell it how to build the tree). But I can't > think of any hardware optimizations that help with trees, other than the > concept of a "stack", which is hardly a new one. Evidently there are some > though. 'Twas a joke, man... -Dave McGuire From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Feb 29 01:59:17 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: Eric Smith "Re: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO)" (Feb 29, 0:53) References: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> <20000224211549.16030.qmail@brouhaha.com> <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20000229005354.12898.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <10002290759.ZM1817@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 29, 0:53, Eric Smith wrote: > Pete writes: > > My ISP runs two SMTP mail servers, one open, the other not; > This can be solved by having your POP or IMAP daemon open up temporary > access to your SMTP server from the roaming IP address after the POP or > IMAP connection is authenticated. This is what I do for some of my users. > If you use qmail there's a readymade program available, but it should be > easy to set it up for Sendmail. That's one of the methods being trialled by my ISP (they use Exim for (E)SMTP). They'r also loking at some sort of password-based authentication but I don't know how that works. > Another approach is for the "roaming" relay to only accept email with both > envelope sender and from headers of legitimate customers. This isn't as > secure, but is still much better than a wide-open relay. If a spammer > discovers the relay by scanning IP addresses for SMTP ports, they still > won't be able to use it unless they also can determine who the legitimate > users of that SMTP server are. True, but that requires spoofing the envelope sender address, which isn't so easy to do on some systems. It also requires even more setup for the ISP than Jay's suggestion of adding domains to sendmail.cw. I know of one common SMTP package (Mercury, for Novell) that allows a simpler system. It's much less secure, because it doesn't really check the addresses; it merely relies on the From address matching the server's own domain. Needless to say, that's easy for anyone -- including a spammer -- to spoof. > > However, until there's a sensible system to deal with roaming users' need to > > send mail as well as receive it, there will be open relays. > > Lots of sites are starting to refuse mail from open relays. Your ISP is > going to have to come up with a better solution. Indeed, and they are looking. IPv6 should eventually remove the problem, of course, but that's some way off. Anyone know the number of the RFC for roaming IP, which Shawn mentioned? I'd like to take a look at it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Feb 29 01:59:19 2000 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) In-Reply-To: "Jay West" "Re: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO)" (Feb 28, 19:49) References: <200002241528.QAA26681@mail2.siemens.de> <20000224211549.16030.qmail@brouhaha.com> <10002282344.ZM1392@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> <002901bf8257$2a3efd40$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <10002290759.ZM1821@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Feb 28, 19:49, Jay West wrote: > Pete wrote.... > > My ISP runs two SMTP mail servers, one open, the other not; > Open relays have NOTHING to do with the above situation - talk about > throwing the baby out with the bathwater - the above scenario is akin to > saying "gee, I want to allow http through my firewall, so lets just open the > firewall up for all ports and all services to and from anywhere". Well, maybe, which is why the European ISPs (and mine in particular) are looking for another method. As more and more sites use MAPS or other services, the need for a better solution becomes greater. > There are two other much more "standard" methods of allowing the above. > First, the user could still check his email at his original/local provider > via pop or imap, they do that anyway -- *receiving* mail isn't part of the problem. > and he could send mail from the smtp server at his > nonlocal/traveling provider. But it would have the "wrong" address, and lots of people can't seem to cope with that. > Second, any time an ISP sets up an agreement > with another ISP to let their users roam, they could just add the roaming > ISP's domain name to their sendmail.cw file to allow relaying from that > domain only. Agreed, but we're talking about hundreds of ISPs, not just a few. And for reasons I've never really understood, quite a number of European ISPs, including one of the biggest UK providers, don't provide DNS PTR records for their dialups (so authentication is more difficult). I'm not personally advocating the use of open relays, BTW. The servers I help manage are not open, because we were hit a long time ago. I'm merely pointing out an instance where a bunch of ISPs have seen them as an interim solution -- and issue warnings to roaming users that some of their mail may bounce because recipient servers may block them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From elmo at mminternet.com Tue Feb 29 02:23:03 2000 From: elmo at mminternet.com (Eliot Moore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Docs for TC31? References: Message-ID: <38BB81E6.CDA8CDEB@mminternet.com> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > However, I did get to meet up with Marvin and Eliot Moore, from whom I > acquired a couple of nifty qbus boards...one of which is an Emulex TC31. > Does anyone have any documentation for this board, or have a minute to run > over the dip switches for me? As always, help is much appreciated... Minor correction: the tape coupler board is a TC03. The other nifty board was a DSD MFM controller. From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Feb 29 03:00:26 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) In-Reply-To: <000228221510.256028be@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: I'm a fairly satisfied flascom user. Granted, I do have some service outtages now and again...but not too bad. Strict terms (*no* servers of any kind allowed, according to the agreement) but good speed - 384/64 for $49 per month. Aaron On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > Jay wrote > >Bruce wrote... > >> connection! It'll be (minimum) 256K up/downstream guaranteed, and those > >> rates could fluctuate a bit depending on the usual variables. > > >Um... you might want to check the fine print on the DSL service agreement. > > I agree fully here! There's vast differences between DSL service from > different suppliers. The el-cheapo suppliers might route all of your > traffic to the other side of the continent and back before it goes > anywhere. (Flashcom does this, for example.) The really good providers > have real service level agreements, guaranteed time commitments, and > other frills. (My DSL carrier, UUNet, will call me within a few minutes > if for any reason they are unable to ping my DSL router. So whenever > the power is out, or I'm just moving some wires here in the shop, I know > who's going to be the first to call me.) (Another top-notch DSL provider > is Savvis.) > > Also thoroughly check out your options in terms of multiple static IP's, etc., > if this is important to you. These aren't important issues to folks who are > using a PC-clone to surf the web over a DSL line, but if you want to hook > older machines to your LAN to get to the outside world through DSL you do > need to pay attention here. > > -- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 > From wrm at ccii.co.za Tue Feb 29 03:58:11 2000 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: OT: Mail servers changes (INFO) Message-ID: <200002291051.MAA12888@ccii.co.za> Hi all >Lots of sites are starting to refuse mail from open relays. Your ISP is >going to have to come up with a better solution. I'm --><-- this close to blocking mail from all of .co.jp Open relays, *nobody* seems to have an abuse@ address, and we don't have customers over there anyway. :-) But I'll probably use the open relay database... W From at258 at osfn.org Tue Feb 29 06:49:19 2000 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: UPDATE: Selling Collection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You know, you might be able to fit a very nice Wang VS-45 sysytem in that space... :) On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, John Lawson wrote: > > > Here it is, 24 hours down the log. I have recieved quite a few > thoughtful e-mails from various Folk on this List: Thank you all. > > I have given even *more* thought to my situation here, in light of > various developments, and will try an experiment, vizt., > > I will dump some of the Junk... and believe me some of it's no > more than scrap.... list to follow. ;} > > I will place some items in a long-term storage facility that I have > currently warehousing one of my oldest 'dormant' hobbies... my > lovely ten-rank pipe organ, which come to think of it, would probably > fit where the computers are now.... no, forget it. > > I will concentrate on a few systems, and NOT collect any more > stuff for the nonce. > > The offer to sell my Vintage Computer Collection is hereby > withdrawn, and again, my great "thank yous" to all who responded. It > was a valuable exercise for me, if nothing else. Guess I'm a hard > core mainline computer junkie. > > The MINC is *still* going to CCHM. > > sigh. > > > > Cheers > > John > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From Mzthompson at aol.com Tue Feb 29 07:48:40 2000 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: INTERSIL ICL7601CPD info needed Message-ID: "Bill Dawson" wrote: > I just obtained a box of goodies, and these Intersil ICL7601CPD 14 pin > ceramic dips were in the lot. I can't seem to locate any information on > them. Can anyone give me a clue? It is an Op-Amp, officially listed as Commutating Auto-Zero (CAZ) Operational Amplifier. It is listed in their 1979 databook. 1 C1 Capacitor across pins 1/2 2 C1 3 +IN 4 AZ Auto-Zero 5 -IN 6 C2 Capacitor across pins 6/7 7 C2 8 V- 9 Bias 10 Output 11 V+ 12 OSC 13 n/c 14 DR V+/V- supply up to +/- 18 volts HTH Mike From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 29 08:39:44 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: [OT] Re: DSL Coming -- I may need help! : My ranting :) In-Reply-To: <20000229021507.A26387@dbit.dbit.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20000228220948.00966d70@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> <003501bf825a$86607880$0101a8c0@jay> <3.0.5.32.20000228220948.00966d70@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000229063944.0095d5d0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 02:15 29-02-2000 -0500, you wrote: >(I don't have DSL but...) I think the point is that the quality varies and >there are no guarantees. I have a friend who moved to Ann Arbor, MI, a Ok. For the benefit of all concerned, I'll run some stats for the first couple of weeks or so and see what I get. Connection speed and number of hops to the backbone will take priority in the listing. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Feb 29 08:51:12 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Don Crabb, dead at 44 Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000229084728.018b1880@pc> >Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 15:00:40 -0500 >To: "Computer Book Publishing" >From: Tara Calishain >X-URL: > > >Studio B sadly passes along news of the death of Studio B Client Don Crabb. Don Crabb >was well-known and respected in the computer press. He wrote numerous books as well as >a column in the Chicago Sun-Times, which was syndicated by the Chicago Sun-Times >Features Syndicate into over 250 papers. In addition, Don taught at the University of Chicago, >and covered Internet topics on both TV and radio. > >He will be missed. Links : http://www.wgnam.com/shows/wgncom/index.html http://www.suntimes.com/output/crabb/xcrabb.html http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/obituaries/article/0,2669,SAV-0002280105,FF.html http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/crab28.html http://macweek.zdnet.com/2000/02/27/0227crabb.html From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Feb 29 09:16:29 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Don Crabb, dead at 44 In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000229084728.018b1880@pc> Message-ID: This is truly sad. Don had a lot of things going for him at this point in his life, and the Mac community has lost one of its true champions... On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, John Foust wrote: > > >Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 15:00:40 -0500 > >To: "Computer Book Publishing" > >From: Tara Calishain > >X-URL: > > > > > >Studio B sadly passes along news of the death of Studio B Client Don Crabb. Don Crabb > >was well-known and respected in the computer press. He wrote numerous books as well as > >a column in the Chicago Sun-Times, which was syndicated by the Chicago Sun-Times > >Features Syndicate into over 250 papers. In addition, Don taught at the University of Chicago, > >and covered Internet topics on both TV and radio. > > > >He will be missed. > > Links : > http://www.wgnam.com/shows/wgncom/index.html > http://www.suntimes.com/output/crabb/xcrabb.html > http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/obituaries/article/0,2669,SAV-0002280105,FF.html > http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/crab28.html > http://macweek.zdnet.com/2000/02/27/0227crabb.html > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Feb 29 09:26:22 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Docs for TC31? In-Reply-To: <38BB81E6.CDA8CDEB@mminternet.com> Message-ID: I thought so too, but the visual ID guide at http://vax.sevensages.org/hw/vfg/nquad.html (vaxarchive.org mirror?) definitely matches it as a TC31. The way it's numbered on the board, it reads "TC031", as if it weren't confusing enough... I'm hoping that the DSD card is straight-forward enough that I can use it without docs. I've had no luck at all finding anything on the Emulex card, though... Cheers, Aaron On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Eliot Moore wrote: > > > Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > > However, I did get to meet up with Marvin and Eliot Moore, from whom I > > acquired a couple of nifty qbus boards...one of which is an Emulex TC31. > > Does anyone have any documentation for this board, or have a minute to run > > over the dip switches for me? As always, help is much appreciated... > > Minor correction: the tape coupler board is a TC03. > > The other nifty board was a DSD MFM controller. > > From af-list at wfi-inc.com Tue Feb 29 12:46:52 2000 From: af-list at wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Document scanning questions (beating a dead horse?) Message-ID: I know we've discussed this ad nauseum here, but I had a specific question for those who have a little more experience with scanning documents. What I'm interested in doing is creating searchable, text-imbedded pdf files as well as tiff files. For those who've done this, could you give me a little rundown on the process you used? I've got Acrobat 3.0, which works fine to produce image-only pdf files that are, incidentally, slightly bigger than that source tiff files. So far I've been scanning bi-tonal at 300dpi, which seemed to me to provide the best quality/size ratio for the image files. Any help at all with this would be much appreciated... Aaron From west at tseinc.com Tue Feb 29 13:01:55 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: A tidbit of history on the HP 2100 to 21MX product line Message-ID: <00b901bf82e7$72783500$d402a8c0@tse.com> I just talked to a guy that worked (in an executive type position) years ago at a company called MeasureX. According to him, MeasureX bought a lot of HP2100's for their process control stuff. They got tired of the problems associated with the cpu card set consisting of 8 cards (9 with DMA - er - DCPC in HP lingo) and the problems with the wire-wrapped backplanes. They redesigned the 2100 cpu to fit on a single card - one PCB - no wirewrapping, all etched traces. They sold this redesigned cpu (actually just a relayout of the circuits) back to HP, and HP dubbed it the 21MX (where the MX is for MeasureX). This was also the origin of the "build your own modular HP", called the K series where you pick and choose cpu boards, slot assemblies, etc. at time of order. He also mentioned that HP used to charge (at the time) $1400 to "clean the backplane". MeasureX found out that the CE's were just taking out all the cards and taking the unit to a car wash and spraying them with pressured water and then sun-drying them in the back of a closed up station wagon in the summer. So---- MeasureX just started doing it themselves and save a huge sum of money :) I found these tidbits interesting! Regards, Jay West From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 29 16:14:31 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: ; from r. 'bear' stricklin on Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:40:31PM -0500 References: <20000228172752.B3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <20000229151430.A6592@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:40:31PM -0500, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > "The power, speed, and flexibility of Symbolics processing machines result > from optimizing the hardware design to match the software environment. > Some of the special architecture features include: > > Tagged architecture Not sure what that is? > Multiple caches > Hardware stack management So I guess maybe that wasn't taken for granted back then huh? > Pipelined instruction cycles > Parallel processing Hmmm. > Hardware assisted garbage collection Now that'd still be cutting-edge if implemented on a modern processor... Just saw a slashdot article about it that pointed here... http://csl.cs.iit.edu/~dmm/ -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed processing. http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 29 16:16:31 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <14523.28994.177600.899382@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from Dave McGuire on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 02:12:02AM -0500 References: <20000228172752.B3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <14523.5515.346231.666526@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20000228182526.H3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> <14523.28994.177600.899382@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20000229151630.B6592@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 02:12:02AM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On February 28, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > > > Hmm...what processor instructions might one create to deal with a > > > language with more parens than actual code? ;) > > > > I doubt that is an issue... I've never written a lisp interpreter (wish > > I'd had one of those CS classes where they do that) but I'd guess the > > ASCII source code gets tokenized into some kind of tree structure which > > is probably interpreted by doing a tree traversal, so the parens are all > > gone by that point (they just tell it how to build the tree). But I can't > > think of any hardware optimizations that help with trees, other than the > > concept of a "stack", which is hardly a new one. Evidently there are some > > though. > > 'Twas a joke, man... Well I knew you were being facetious, I just took the opportunity to try to bait whoever has an opinion or actual knowledge of how LISP gets interpreted. Any takers? :-) -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed processing. http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Feb 29 15:48:46 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: DSL Coming -- I may need help! In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> (message from Bruce Lane on Mon, 28 Feb 2000 17:25:20 -0800) References: <3.0.5.32.20000228172520.00957100@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <20000229214846.26278.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bruce Lane wrote: > The DSL "modem" (a misnomer if I ever saw one) will be a Cisco 675. The DSL "modem" really is a modem. In fact, it has a considerably more sophisticated modulator and demodulator than any other modem you're likely to have had experience with. By comparison, 56K modems (when operating in PCM mode) are much less like traditional modems than the DSL modem is. Of course, there's also a router or bridge in most of the DSL modems. From red at bears.org Tue Feb 29 16:44:47 2000 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <20000229151430.A6592@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > > Tagged architecture > > Not sure what that is? On a tagged architecture, instruction data includes 'tag' bits which are used to type the data, and allow runtime data checking in hardware. SPARC processors use a tagged architecture. > > Multiple caches > > Hardware stack management > > So I guess maybe that wasn't taken for granted back then huh? The processor is stack-based and doesn't have any general purpose registers. I'm assuming this is what makes the hardware stack management more important. The "multiple caches" goes beyond the instruction and data caches common today. "Major caches are the Stack cache, the Memory Map cache, and the Instruction cache." Of these, the memory map cache is the one I find unique; it's an 8K (sic) RAM which "cross references the virtual page number and the physical page number". The instruction cache is part of an optional "Enhanced Performance" unit which I don't have, and also seems to be where the pipeline (three-stage) is implemented. ok r. From spc at armigeron.com Tue Feb 29 16:39:19 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <20000229151430.A6592@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at Feb 29, 2000 03:14:31 PM Message-ID: <200002292239.RAA26564@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Shawn T. Rutledge once stated: > > On Mon, Feb 28, 2000 at 08:40:31PM -0500, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > "The power, speed, and flexibility of Symbolics processing machines result > > from optimizing the hardware design to match the software environment. > > Some of the special architecture features include: > > > > Tagged architecture > > Not sure what that is? Each memory cell has a tag associated with it telling how to interpret the contents---this cell has an integer, this one is a pointer to a string, this one a floating point number, this is a pointer to a cons cell. Tagged memory in other words. -spc (The Intel 432 was a tagged architecture---meant for OOP programming but it never caught on ... ) From go at ao.com Tue Feb 29 17:02:55 2000 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:55 2005 Subject: Core memory on a chip. Message-ID: <4.2.2.20000229144649.00d2f660@buffy.ao.com> I'm sure some of you have seen this already... http://www.ramtrom.com Ramtron is a producer of "ferroelectric ram" devices. Two weeks ago they announced a 256k bit part. To keep on topic: this is exactly what I need for my single-board Scenix-based PDP-8 emulator! No damn battery backup needed and you don't have to reload RIM every time you boot. -Gary From spc at armigeron.com Tue Feb 29 17:22:10 2000 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <20000229151630.B6592@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> from "Shawn T. Rutledge" at Feb 29, 2000 03:16:31 PM Message-ID: <200002292322.SAA27673@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Shawn T. Rutledge once stated: > > On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 02:12:02AM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On February 28, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > > > > Hmm...what processor instructions might one create to deal with a > > > > language with more parens than actual code? ;) > > > > > > I doubt that is an issue... I've never written a lisp interpreter (wish > > > I'd had one of those CS classes where they do that) but I'd guess the > > > ASCII source code gets tokenized into some kind of tree structure which > > > is probably interpreted by doing a tree traversal, so the parens are all > > > gone by that point (they just tell it how to build the tree). But I can't > > > think of any hardware optimizations that help with trees, other than the > > > concept of a "stack", which is hardly a new one. Evidently there are some > > > though. > > > > 'Twas a joke, man... > > Well I knew you were being facetious, I just took the opportunity to try to > bait whoever has an opinion or actual knowledge of how LISP gets interpreted. > Any takers? :-) Sure, I'll bite (Hmmmmm, yummmmmm but what's this sharp pointy thing? 8-) Instructions to help with pointer manipulations. Also a typed architecture would help as well. There isn't much in a LISP interpreter and a fairly minimalistic one can be written in a few hundred lines of code (although it'll probably be slow). The stack is implicit---you don't really use one explicitely (much like you don't really notice the stack when you make subroutine calls but it's used implicitely to keep track of return addresses). The basic storage unit (a cons cell is the traditional name) might look something like: typedef struct conscell { int type; union alltypes data; struct conscell *next; } conscell_t; A Lisp list is basically, a linked list of conscells with type information. If you can keep all this in a single word of memory that helps with memory consumption, and possibly specialized instructions to extract the fields out to help with speed, and possibly instructions to insert, delete and walk linked lists. I know the VAX had linked-list instructions. -spc (Have compiler, will code) From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Feb 29 16:46:54 2000 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <200002292239.RAA26564@armigeron.com> (spc@armigeron.com) References: <200002292239.RAA26564@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <20000229224654.26739.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" wrote: > -spc (The Intel 432 was a tagged architecture---meant for OOP programming > but it never caught on ... ) Indeed. It was somewhat non-traditional even as tagged architectures went. Rather than tagging every memory location, memory was considered as objects. Each object has a type, which can either be a hardware-interpreted system type (such as Processor, Process, Port, Context, Domain) or a software- defined type. In a given Context (procedure/function invocation), software can only access objects for which that context has an access descriptor (AD). The AD is a capability, which means that it controls the access rights to the object pointed to. For instance, objects have hardware-interpreted read and write rights, as well as other rights that vary depending on the object type. Each object is divided into two parts, the data part and the access part. The access part contains ADs only. The data part can not contain ADs. The instruction set does not even provide any method whereby software could attempt to store an AD into the data part, or data into the access part. This split between ADs and data means that the software can never try to dereference other data as if it were an AD, nor can it corrupt an AD by overwriting it with random data. (There's no inherent protection against writing the "wrong" AD over the "right" one, if you have write rights to the segment.) The architecture is really quite elegant. The big problems with it are: 1) It's slow, due largely to the limits of the 1975-1981 technology used in the implementation. For instance, on the already-large dice, there was not room for instruction or data caches, although there was a small cache for segment information. Also, the data path between the two chips that made up the general data processor was too narrow. 2) The architecture doesn't map well to languages like C. It would be possible to implement a fully standards-compliant C compiler for the 432, but it is likely that the vast majority of existing real-world C code would not run correctly on the system, because most large C programs make architectural assumptions beyond what the C standard requires the platform to guarantee. I've put some information about the iAPX 432 on my web site: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/intel/iapx432/ As I think I've stated here before, I'm looking for ANY 432-related materials (documentation, software, chips, boards, systems, etc.). I've started work on a 432 simulator, but I expect it will take a long time to complete, and if I am unable to obtain a complete copy of the 432 cross-development software, I will be unable to verify the correctness of the simulator. So if you have anything, please let me know. Thanks! Eric From west at tseinc.com Tue Feb 29 17:18:14 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: Core memory diagnostics advice request Message-ID: <002001bf830b$4265a5e0$0101a8c0@jay> Greetings; I've finally gotten (again) my HP2100's to the point where I can run real diagnostics. The memory architecture doesn't appear all that different from a PDP-8E at the board level anyways (there's a memory controller board, a load board, an ID board, an XY driver board, and the core array). My question is this: I heard from a reseller that one should run the memory diagnostics in loop mode for 48 to 72 hours before assuming the memory subsystem is a good one. Bear in mind that when the diagnostic is run without loop mode, it only takes about 8 minutes to complete. This would mean 360 passes being made in 48 hours. From others experience, is 48 hours really necessary? I mean, isn't a good 4 hours enough to test for heat problems, etc? Unlike the reseller, I don't need to be 100% positive a board is perfect before sending it to a customer, I just want to be reasonably sure I can remove the memory system from the list of possible trouble spots as I go on to test other things. I was hoping that there would be nothing about the HP core subsystem that would require that long of burn in, and thus the experience others have had with other systems might be valid experience. So how long do YOU loop memory diags to test a core memory system to be reasonably sane? Thanks in advance! Jay West From ss at allegro.com Tue Feb 29 17:39:54 2000 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: Core memory on a chip. In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000229144649.00d2f660@buffy.ao.com> Message-ID: <200002292341.PAA08087@opus.allegro.com> Re: > I'm sure some of you have seen this already... > > http://www.ramtrom.com The url is actually: http://www.ramtron.com BTW, one of the uglier and harder to read web pages that I've seen! Still, an interesting product, potentially. Stan (Background GIFs: just say NO!) Sieler Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 29 17:45:07 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: ; from r. 'bear' stricklin on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 05:44:47PM -0500 References: <20000229151430.A6592@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <20000229164507.C6592@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 05:44:47PM -0500, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > On a tagged architecture, instruction data includes 'tag' bits which are > used to type the data, and allow runtime data checking in hardware. SPARC > processors use a tagged architecture. Seems like a good idea. But there would be a limited fixed set of types available then. > > The "multiple caches" goes beyond the instruction and data caches common > today. > > "Major caches are the Stack cache, the Memory Map cache, and the > Instruction cache." Of these, the memory map cache is the one I find > unique; it's an 8K (sic) RAM which "cross references the virtual page > number and the physical page number". The instruction cache is part of an > optional "Enhanced Performance" unit which I don't have, and also seems to > be where the pipeline (three-stage) is implemented. Hmmm, wouldn't any MMU have to keep track of the virtual-to-physical mapping? Would it normally just do it in main memory if there isn't usually special cache for that? -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed processing. http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From west at tseinc.com Tue Feb 29 17:36:45 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: HP 2100 documentation request Message-ID: <002f01bf830d$d829e120$0101a8c0@jay> Greetings again! I'm in need of some printed documentation with regards to the HP2100 or HP21MX diagnostics. While each of the diagnostics are available separately, a large chunk of diagnostics are put on a single set of 3 paper tapes. I do have the tapes, but not the manual that goes with it. The manual is 24396-14001. That's the one I need as this "manual" actually is a manual on each diagnostic included in the three tapes above. Can any of the 2100 or 21MX folks check and see if they have this manual laying around? In the event no one has 24396-14001, I would also be able to just get along with the manuals on a few of the diagnostics. Those critical ones would be: 02100-90219 Core memory (2100/16/15/14) 24395-90001 Semiconductor memory (21MX) 02100-90221 Memory Parity Check 02100-90216 Power fail auto restart 24391-90001 General purpose register 24322-90002 Direct Memory Access (2100/21MX) Thanks for checking! Jay West From Technoid at cheta.net Tue Feb 29 18:01:39 2000 From: Technoid at cheta.net (Technoid@cheta.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <20000228182526.H3347@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> Message-ID: <200002292355.SAA24013@lexington.ioa.net> One thing you can do to optimize a tokenizing interpreter is to precalculate and store the goto and gosub destination and return addresses. This way the interpreter does not have to start at line 0 searching sequentially through the tree for the destination for a gosub but will just go there directly. Of course calculated destinations (ie: 10 if x then gosub x+x+1) totally ruin this system for that line of code. Basic XE and Basic XL from OSS used this feature in thier "FAST" command (a sort of post-tokenized address precompiler) to boost performance. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Technical Services Bits & Bytes Computer Services Inc. 1979B Hendersonville Road Asheville, NC 28803 828-684-8953 - voice 0900-1700 five days 828-687-9284 - 24hr fax Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk? Technoid@Cheta.net ----------------------------------------------------------- From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 29 18:10:13 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics Message-ID: <200003010010.TAA09514@world.std.com> To drag this in a different direction since the LISP discussion brought a few memory frags to the surface... Forth, LISP, PostScript and a few others I'll leave others to name were all similar in that they were stack oriented languages. I never worked with them much save for Postscript (it's core is Forth to me). Now, I vaguely remember a series of articles in Kilobaud, Dr Dobbs or maybe Byte on constructing your own forth like language in the early 80s. Anyone remember these? Are there copies? Allison From west at tseinc.com Tue Feb 29 18:00:44 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Electronic/Radio/Computer Swap References: <6d.1989414.25ead28f@aol.com> Message-ID: <009c01bf8311$323b6820$0101a8c0@jay> Someone wrote.... > > The annual Mike and Key Amateur Radio Club swap meet is coming up again at > > the Western Washington (Puyallup) Fairgrounds on Saturday, March 11, from > > 09:00-15:00 Pacific time. Parking is free, admission is $6.00 with kids > > under 16 free when accompanied by an adult. > > > One great swapmeet. Very large. Get there early. Or better yet get a table. Ok, where is this swapmeet? What city, state, etc...? And might they have old minicomputer stuff or is it mostly radio stuff? Jay West From rcini at msn.com Tue Feb 29 18:21:33 2000 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: Re. Document scanning questions (beating a dead horse?) Message-ID: <006b01bf8315$08336100$6464a8c0@office1> Aaron: I happen to like the combination of Acrobat Exchange 3.01 and my HP Scan Jet with document feeder. It's not blazingly fast, but it works. I have it c onnected to my AHA2940UW controller. Rich [ Rich Cini [ ClubWin!/CW1 [ MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking [ Collector of "classic" computers [ http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ <================ reply separator =================> From elvey at hal.com Tue Feb 29 18:32:29 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: Core memory on a chip. In-Reply-To: <200002292341.PAA08087@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: <200003010032.QAA26040@civic.hal.com> "Stan Sieler" wrote: > > Stan (Background GIFs: just say NO!) Sieler Hi Stan I find that if I drag my mouse with the select button I can at least read the darn things. What is even worse is when the picture file is corrupted. I'm sure they payed a lot to some jerk to make the web page without thinking about what browser would be looking at it. Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 29 18:50:00 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: mpi (CDC) drive Message-ID: <200003010050.TAA02911@world.std.com> I have a MPI (CDC) 5.25 full height 2sided drive and some questions. Part number is 77711800 is this 35, 40 or "other" cylinders? is it 48tpi, 96 or maybe 100 tpi? It gets cranky from tracks 9-14 inward (even a Format) and it makes me wonder what it is or is it just flakey? Appearances suggest flakey but I'm making sure it's not an oddball MPI 100tpi. FYI: it's a NS* Advantage and it runs fine off a generic HH5.25/48tpi floppy. Anyone have a NS* CP/M OS manual for it. It has CP/M and it's apparently a NS* version for the Advantage and slightly strange compared to others I've seen? Allison From rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com Tue Feb 29 18:52:31 2000 From: rutledge at cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com (Shawn T. Rutledge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Electronic/Radio/Computer Swap In-Reply-To: <009c01bf8311$323b6820$0101a8c0@jay>; from Jay West on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 06:00:44PM -0600 References: <6d.1989414.25ead28f@aol.com> <009c01bf8311$323b6820$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <20000229175231.A6998@electron.kb7pwd.ampr.org> On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 06:00:44PM -0600, Jay West wrote: > Someone wrote.... > > > The annual Mike and Key Amateur Radio Club swap meet is coming up again > at > > > the Western Washington (Puyallup) Fairgrounds on Saturday, March 11, > from > > > 09:00-15:00 Pacific time. Parking is free, admission is $6.00 with kids > > > under 16 free when accompanied by an adult. > > > > > One great swapmeet. Very large. Get there early. Or better yet get a > table. > > Ok, where is this swapmeet? What city, state, etc...? And might they have Looks like it's near Puyallup in western Washington state. ;-) -- _______ http://www.bigfoot.com/~ecloud (_ | |_) ecloud@bigfoot.com finger rutledge@cx47646-a.phnx1.az.home.com __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ Join the ProcessTree Network: For-pay Internet distributed processing. http://www.ProcessTree.com/?sponsor=5903 From elvey at hal.com Tue Feb 29 18:56:20 2000 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <200003010010.TAA09514@world.std.com> Message-ID: <200003010056.QAA26363@civic.hal.com> Allison J Parent wrote: > Forth, LISP, PostScript and a few others I'll leave others to name Hi Forth and PostScript are quite similar but I wouldn't say that LISP was a stack based language. It uses stacks but most languages use stacks. In Forth, you have direct control of two stacks as necessary for the language. The differences that contrast the languages are post-fixed versus pre-fixed. Both of these are actually better than in-fixed that is used by most popular languages( flame bate ). Parsing rules are always the same, with no special cases to deal with or ambiguous implementation depended rules. Forth has the advantage that action is read left to right or "Do-it As You See It". LISP has the ability to concatenate several of similar operations like (+ ). LISP has the advantage over Forth in that all parameters are specific in the text. Both can do recursion with equal ease although many early Forth's did not explicitly define it. One of the big advantages of Forth and that is it has flexibility to add new capabilities in high level Forth or low level code and make it seem as though it were part of the language. LISP has a similar ability but the explicit parameter passing often makes the usefulness of this lost in the coding. Oh well, each to there own. IMHO Dwight From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 29 20:02:06 2000 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Electronic/Radio/Computer Swap In-Reply-To: <009c01bf8311$323b6820$0101a8c0@jay> References: <6d.1989414.25ead28f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000229180206.0096d670@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 18:00 29-02-2000 -0600, you wrote: >Ok, where is this swapmeet? What city, state, etc...? And might they have >old minicomputer stuff or is it mostly radio stuff? Puyallup, WA, Jay. Southeast of Tacoma, Puget Sound region. I've seen older minicomputer stuff there, but it's not common. I think whatever shows up there this year may be largely because of what I bring out. ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Feb 29 20:24:30 2000 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <200003010010.TAA09514@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.3.0.20000229202308.01874ee0@pc> At 07:10 PM 2/29/00 -0500, you wrote: >Now, I vaguely remember a series of articles in Kilobaud, Dr Dobbs or >maybe Byte on constructing your own forth like language in the early 80s. >Anyone remember these? Are there copies? There was a Byte Press book "Threaded Interpreted Languages" from back then. I have it on the shelf at the office, if you want the ISBN number. I think of Lisp as a list-based language, not stack-based. - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 29 20:25:57 2000 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: INTERSIL ICL7601CPD info needed In-Reply-To: <000201bf8268$534e18e0$35e3dfd0@cobweb.net> from "Bill Dawson" at Feb 28, 0 10:51:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 800 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000301/58c4587c/attachment-0001.ksh From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Feb 29 19:41:00 2000 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics Message-ID: <01JMHP8F2QPE9QV5W4@cc.usu.edu> >Now, I vaguely remember a series of articles in Kilobaud, Dr Dobbs or >maybe Byte on constructing your own forth like language in the early 80s. >Anyone remember these? Are there copies? There was an issue of BYTE dedicated to threaded languages; it's been a while since I read it, but IIRC it was pretty much devoted to FORTH. There was also a book which somehow was related to the articles that went through the process of building your own FORTH. Unfortuantely, I don't have a copy of that. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk Tue Feb 29 20:54:06 2000 From: peter.pachla at wintermute.org.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: Need RS6K help Message-ID: <015001bf832b$1afbb880$9fe993c3@proteus> Hi, I've just gotten hold of an RS/6000 which appears to be a model 520 (7013?). Since the thing appears to be a server (POWERserver?), and thus has no display adapter, I need to get hold of at least one of the 10-pin to 25-pin serial port converter cables. Can anyone, preferably in the UK, help please? Also, does anyone know where I can track down a set of AIX 3.1.0 manuals - printed or electronic form? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@wintermute.org.uk | www.wintermute.org.uk -- From west at tseinc.com Tue Feb 29 20:50:35 2000 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics References: <01JMHP8F2QPE9QV5W4@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <023001bf8328$ecb245e0$0101a8c0@jay> Someone wrote... > There was an issue of BYTE dedicated to threaded languages; it's been a > while since I read it, but IIRC it was pretty much devoted to FORTH. > There was also a book which somehow was related to the articles that > went through the process of building your own FORTH. Unfortuantely, I > don't have a copy of that. The first OS type design project I was ever offered was to write a run time forth interpreter and complete OS environment for it on Microdata Reality computers (subsequently McDonnell Douglas Computer Systems). As I recall they had some type of medical oriented accounting or business package written in forth and they wanted to make it run (without another underlying OS) on the Reality platform (which they owned). They offered me almost triple what I was currently making to be the lead engineer on the project. I was absolutely salivating at the thought of doing a complete OS design from scratch, but in subsequent interviews it was obvious to me that they would likely let me go once the project was written so I didn't take it. I've never touched forth since then. This is almost 20 year old memory cells trying to activate here, but I thought Forth was generally implemented by "compilation" into a non-standard pCode which was then run interpretively by a stack oriented run time engine. Thus, I would have said it was a stack oriented language. But I guess it depends on if you're looking at the language itself or how it is normally executed? Jay West From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Feb 29 21:22:43 2000 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics Message-ID: <200003010322.WAA10986@world.std.com> Forth and PostScript are quite similar but I wouldn't >This is almost 20 year old memory cells trying to activate here, but I >thought Forth was generally implemented by "compilation" into a non-standard >pCode which was then run interpretively by a stack oriented run time engine. That's one way of doing it, but the most traditional (and still most popular, at least from what I see) way of doing it is to compile straight to threaded machine code. Note that even though threaded code is usually most commonly associated with Forth and other "non-traditional" languages, the technique is applicable to old-line languages as well. For example, Fortran IV compilers on the PDP-11 could optionally compile to threaded machine code, usually producing smaller object code as a result. >Thus, I would have said it was a stack oriented language. But I guess it >depends on if you're looking at the language itself or how it is normally >executed? To me, at least, threaded means "you call a subroutine for everything". For instance, if you want to add two numbers, you push them onto a (or the) stack and call the add routine. It's the extreme opositte of "inline" code, to the point where you can think that you're working on a "virtual" machine that doesn't have the limitations of your "real" machine (probably why you've confused Forth with p-Code type intermediate representations - after all, conceptually they aren't that different!) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From nerdware at laidbak.com Tue Feb 29 21:48:15 2000 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: Don Crabb, dead at 44 In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.20000229084728.018b1880@pc> Message-ID: <200003010348.VAA27707@garcon.laidbak.com> I heard this Monday and was shocked. I knew Don had been sick, but thought he was recovering. Don truly was a wonderful guy. I emailed him with questions on several occasions and he always went out of his way to respond, usually within a few hours! And he didn't know me from anyone. He was a gifted writer. I just couldn't get enough of his columns and articles. Intelligent, witty, and always fair. Sure, he was rabidly pro-Mac, but never blindly so. He wasn't afraid to criticize where he saw room for improvement. Always making suggestions to improve the State of the Mac. Don was engaged to be married for the second time (he took ill and was hospitalized on his wedding day -- truly sad) and was very happy with the way his life was going. Living in the Chicago area, I have listened to Crabby on the air over the years, both on his own show on WGN and on with local legend Steve Dahl, with whom he shared not only a love of techie stuff but also the same strange, twisted sense of humor. It was hard not to like Don. Dahl has a very touching commentary on Don's passing posted on his web page at www.dahl.com. If you read all the replies to Roger Ebert's eulogy posted on www.suntimes.com, you'll realize that this was a man that few people in the computer world didn't like. Damn shame. I always wanted to take a day off and take him to lunch. I, for one, am going to miss him. Rest in peace, Crabby. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From donm at cts.com Tue Feb 29 22:34:23 2000 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: mpi (CDC) drive In-Reply-To: <200003010050.TAA02911@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, Allison J Parent wrote: > I have a MPI (CDC) 5.25 full height 2sided drive and some questions. > > Part number is 77711800 Allison, I have a 96tpi MPI with Part number 77686000, so it is apparently not that. I also have a 100tpi MPI, bit it is installed and inaccessible now. - don > is this 35, 40 or "other" cylinders? > > is it 48tpi, 96 or maybe 100 tpi? > > It gets cranky from tracks 9-14 inward (even a Format) and it makes me > wonder what it is or is it just flakey? Appearances suggest flakey but I'm > making sure it's not an oddball MPI 100tpi. I'm sure that you have checked that the head assembly slides freely on the guide rods. > FYI: it's a NS* Advantage and it runs fine off a generic HH5.25/48tpi > floppy. Certainly points at the drive. > Anyone have a NS* CP/M OS manual for it. It has CP/M and it's apparently > a NS* version for the Advantage and slightly strange compared to others I've > seen? What is different about it? - don > > Allison > > From wilson at dbit.dbit.com Tue Feb 29 23:43:52 2000 From: wilson at dbit.dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:56 2005 Subject: old threaded languages, was Re: Symbolics In-Reply-To: <000229224135.25602547@trailing-edge.com>; from CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com on Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 10:41:35PM -0500 References: <000229224135.25602547@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20000301004352.A30048@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Feb 29, 2000 at 10:41:35PM -0500, CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > That's one way of doing it, but the most traditional (and still most > popular, at least from what I see) way of doing it is to compile > straight to threaded machine code. I've never understood this. Evidently most/all of the FIG FORTHs produced threaded code, but I haven't found a single peep about it in the FIST standards that say it's an inherent part of the language. I've written FORTHs that did it both ways, very simple-minded in each case but I think it would be pretty easy to write a FORTH that at least pruned out most of the superfluous stack use (stuff that gets pushed and then popped right off) and could produce semi-decent machine code. > Note that even though threaded code is usually most commonly associated > with Forth and other "non-traditional" languages, the technique > is applicable to old-line languages as well. Totally. When I ported Small-C to the IBM 370, I had it produce threaded code, just because my head started to hurt whenever I thought about how to automate the allocation of base registers. Yeeccchh... My PDP-11 emulator has several different interpreters inside it for both threaded code (for the device bootstraps, and for composing complicated strings for log files) and tokenized code (for the keyboard script language), they come in really handy. Funny how this stuff seems to be dying out these days, but then again, if C is really bad at something, it's considered to be that something's fault, no big surprise I guess. It's a really great tool for cases where you're willing to lose a little speed to save a lot of space. John Wilson D Bit From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Feb 29 20:08:22 2000 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:49:57 2005 Subject: Symbolics photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200003010706.e21764T28388@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 01:05:19 -0500 (EST) > From: "r. 'bear' stricklin" > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Symbolics photos > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Hi, > > As promised: > > The 8" 760 MB SMD disk, with a 3.5" 2 GB SCSI disk for comparison- > http://www.lycanthrope.org/~red/behind/machines/symbolics/disks.jpeg > A billiard ball is depicted in the last two images for further context. > For reference, an SGI Indigo2 is approximately the size of an IBM 5150 PC, > but a bit more compact. Billiard ball and that context comparisons (like the 2GB 3.5" hd to that 8" SMD is very good! Liked that and reminds me of comparing that 2.5" to a 5.25 FH hd. :-) That 1MW board looked like you could make it to 2MW board by filling all the empty spaces with memory chips. Wizard -who did play pool for fun when I have chance to. From dylanb at sympatico.ca Tue Feb 29 16:17:50 2000 From: dylanb at sympatico.ca (John B) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:50:07 2005 Subject: Can someone here telnet to my 11/35 Message-ID: <001801bf8302$d7e2c700$9926d1d8@default> Thanks everyone for telnetting into the 11/35. It seems the 11/35 could handle the guests but not my PII-350 :-(. The terminal server is now repaired and it looks to be stable. .. though probably not as stable as the 11/35. I will be putting online many different PDP-11s/PDP-8s online throughout this week and the coming months. The 11/35 will have FORTRAN IV, MACRO and FOCAL added to it (with a lot more games) later on today. http://www.pdp8.com/telnet.htm Enjoy! PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com