From marvin at rain.org Wed Sep 1 01:38:03 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:05 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? References: Message-ID: <37CCC9CB.94E5CD64@rain.org> Don Maslin wrote: > > And I being more cowardly like to power down and let sit for a while and > make the adjustment 'cold'. Then power up and see how you did. Repeat if > necessary. I prefer to do it "hot" since I can see what I am doing. Regardless, I once discharged a CRT fully (at least as far as I could touch the high voltage connection and not get a shock.) I left it alone for a while and went back to pick it up making the mistake of getting my hand too near the high voltage connection. After making the proper explatives deleted, I now always discharge the tube just before I am going to do something with it. From hrothgar at total.net Wed Sep 1 04:12:43 1999 From: hrothgar at total.net (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:06 2005 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 31-Aug-99, James Willing wrote: >On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Joe wrote: >> At 01:25 AM 8/31/99 -0500, Doug wrote: >> >It went downhill really well, so I'm considering entering it in next >> >year's Soap Box Derby. >I hope you are kidding... B^} Of course. It would require modifications to add steering, and I want to leave it in its original state. :) I do want to build shelves into it, though. But I want to fit the shelves over the beam that runs through the middle. I don't want to puncture the metal. >-jim -- Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: hrothgar@total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ From hrothgar at total.net Wed Sep 1 04:29:52 1999 From: hrothgar at total.net (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990831170908.3c3f4ca8@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On 31-Aug-99, Joe wrote: >At 01:25 AM 8/31/99 -0500, Doug wrote: >>Anyone know how old this thing is? > Look at the serial number. Add 1960 to the first two digits and that >will tell you what year it was made. The second pair of digits will >tell you the week that it was made. 39th week of 1988. Thanks! :) > Yes, they're NICE plotters. Unfortunately, everyone is throwing them >out and replacing them with ink jets. I rescued two of them but >couldn't even give them away. It's a shame. I've been so out of touch with what's going on with drafting that I thought these things would still be in use. I went to the big office supply warehouse and they didn't have any kind of large paper. They told me to try arts supply shops. :) When I was working using AutoCAD in 1990, I was in a big room with lots of people doing drafting by hand. I suppose that job is obsolete now? I actually transferred some old drawings from paper into the computer while I was there, and a girl I knew did that as a full-time job. I didn't have direct access to the plotters back then. I shoved my disks into a little cubbyhole and when I'd come back a few hours later some drawings had miraculously appeared! :) I was able to peek through the cubbyholes, though, and the plotters that they used looked to be big flat tables over which the pens would move in both axes. I have used smaller plotters, which work only on 8.5x11" sheets. Dopey little toys compared to this. :) But I really wish I had picked up some of those Commodore plotters (VIC 1520?) when I had a chance. There were some of those at the Salvation Army store and I was too busy picking up other things at the time. One of my many computer collecting regrets. They probably ended up in the garbage. :'( > Joe -- Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: hrothgar@total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ From hrothgar at total.net Wed Sep 1 04:29:22 1999 From: hrothgar at total.net (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <00cc01bef3bc$d60b0440$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On 31-Aug-99, Richard Erlacher wrote: >The Draftmaster series was "current" in '88. We bought them for about >$10K each in '88, though I routinely see them offered nowadays at >$200. So I guess this is simultaneously my cheapest (free) and most expensive ($10,000) piece of computer equipment. :) >There are drivers for Windows, I'll have to see if there's a proper driver for AmigaOS. I don't do Windows (at least not yet!). >Pens from third parties are readily available and the device >operates as either DCE or DTE via RS232, or HPIB. I thought the thing wasn't working until I thought to try connecting it up via a null modem instead of a standard serial cable. My null modem doesn't carry the flow control lines, though, so I can overflow the plotter's buffer at 19,200bps. If I play with the settings I might be able to fix that, though. (There are quite a few menu items in there!) >Dick -- Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: hrothgar@total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ From hrothgar at total.net Wed Sep 1 04:37:06 1999 From: hrothgar at total.net (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: 16-sector disks? Message-ID: Hi, How common are 16-sector hard sectored disks? I found some disks for my AES 7100, and that's what they are (17 holes!). Unfortunately, the only Software disk I found only boots part way. The other disks are Data disks, and they give me an error when I try to boot from them. But at least now I know that the screen works. :) -- Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: hrothgar@total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ From foxvideo at wincom.net Wed Sep 1 09:04:12 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? In-Reply-To: <001c01bef414$f0862900$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990901100412.007ad790@mail.wincom.net> At 07:57 PM 8/31/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Primarily for nostalgic reasons, I want a 9" video monitor and terminal >keyboard on one of my systems. I've had the Micro-Term ACT-IVa keyboard for >some time, and recently got a 9" monitor to go with it. > >When I powered up the monitor and keyboard, I noticed that the display is >slightly twisted (I think the correct term is trapezoid, where the distance >from the top of the left end of the printed line to the top of the screen is >not the same distance from the top right end of the same line to the top of >the screen - the lines run downhill slightly). > >My question is - is this a tell-tale sign that indicates a worse problem is >imminent? I don't mind the slight run downhill on the screen, but if that's >a sign of worse to come, I'd just assume return the monitor and get a >different one. There is no adjustment pot that I can see internal or >external for this "twisting" effect. > >Thanks in advance! > >Jay West > > > If the raster is rectangular, top and bottom edges parallel, but higher on on e side than the other, the deflection yoke can be rotated on the neck of the tube to align it. If the raster is "keystoned", top and bottom not parallel, the yoke probably has shorted turns... get rid of it. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 1 10:00:08 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: HP DraftMaster I Message-ID: <001a01bef48a$c91037a0$0400c0a8@winbook> My plotter, admittedly not exactly identical, but VERY similar, requires that you load the paper, press the button that says "chart hold" or some such, then, after allowing the plotter to look for the edges of the paper (an important step because it initializes the origin to the center of the paper), press "on-line" at which time the DTR light becomes really important. Now, the plotter will work from a null-modem arrangement if you use X-on/x-off but I've had my best luck with the cable hooked up differently. I'd go into detail, but that was with the old v3.22 OrCad drafting utility and it had to have a specially wired cable to work correctly. I've also opened the box and socketed and replaced the components on the little serial interface board, which uses a Z-80 Dart and some 1488 and 1489 drivers and receivers. If this little comm interface module isn't happy, the whole plotter knows about it and doesn't work well. Back in the late '80's, when I got mine, the HP support for these (they were still selling them) was terrible. No one really knew what was necessary to make them work. Nowadays, there's nobody there who'll even talk about them. If you want to test the thing thoroughly, you'll have to get some of the toilet paper that fits it, (mine only uses cut forms) making sure you still have the cutoff blade located in the little groove at the front and then load the paper in the paper path (straighforward, assume the obvious) and then send it various drawings which use different size paper in different orientation. These machines will feed the appropriate amount, but don't mind wasting paper, i.e. they feed the 36"-wide paper 14-15" for a portrait 'A'-size form, wasting most of the paper. That was the reason I got the single-sheet version. I don't need it to run all night unattended, but I do have to pay for the paper. You'll see that's not cheap. That may explain why the drawings in most manuals are so difficult to read, having been reduced from already-too-small drawings. The manuals may still be available somewhere, but I would get right on trying to find them if I were you. I made the purchase of my plotter contingent on complete manuals, so they were included. That became a condition after I found that Martin Marietta, after buying 20 or so of these still hadn't received a complete set of manuals even though each plotter was supposed to come with them. If you have access to a Windows box with AutoCad 12 on it (I don't have a later version to try this) you should be able to put it through its paces, as that has an internal plotter driver which operates independently of the one in WIndows. I've had no luck at all getting the Windows driver to do anything. I suspect (after watching the lights on the breakout box) that there is some incompatibility in the way they work their handshaking. Perhaps the '488 port will work for you, if you've got one with drivers in your system. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Doug Spence To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 2:43 AM Subject: Re: HP DraftMaster I >On 31-Aug-99, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >>The Draftmaster series was "current" in '88. We bought them for about >>$10K each in '88, though I routinely see them offered nowadays at >>$200. > >So I guess this is simultaneously my cheapest (free) and most expensive >($10,000) piece of computer equipment. :) > >>There are drivers for Windows, > > >I'll have to see if there's a proper driver for AmigaOS. I don't do >Windows (at least not yet!). > >>Pens from third parties are readily available and the device >>operates as either DCE or DTE via RS232, or HPIB. > >I thought the thing wasn't working until I thought to try connecting it >up via a null modem instead of a standard serial cable. My null modem >doesn't carry the flow control lines, though, so I can overflow the >plotter's buffer at 19,200bps. If I play with the settings I might be >able to fix that, though. (There are quite a few menu items in there!) > >>Dick > > >-- >Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: >hrothgar@total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 1 10:05:12 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: 16-sector disks? Message-ID: <001d01bef48b$6456e380$0400c0a8@winbook> I don't know how common they were, but most 8" floppy drives seem to have a built-in provision for them. The most I've seen is the 33-hole 32-sector format, but the drives with sector-separators on them had jumpering for 8, 16, and 32-sector formats. Unfortunately, the controllers which operate on hard-sectored formats seem to be like hen's teeth. If your system knows what to do with these, then you're in luck. Does your system read your data diskettes after you've booted from the hard-sectored boot diskette? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Doug Spence To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 2:43 AM Subject: 16-sector disks? >Hi, > >How common are 16-sector hard sectored disks? > >I found some disks for my AES 7100, and that's what they are (17 >holes!). > >Unfortunately, the only Software disk I found only boots part way. The >other disks are Data disks, and they give me an error when I try to boot >from them. > >But at least now I know that the screen works. :) > >-- >Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: >hrothgar@total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ > From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Sep 1 10:58:56 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: 16-sector disks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > How common are 16-sector hard sectored disks? Not very common. > > I found some disks for my AES 7100, and that's what they are (17 > holes!). Yep, index plus 16 sector holes. The 17th one is oddly positioned to the rest so the system can tell it's at the start/end of the media. Oh, 10 sector (NS*) have 11 holes (if you want to be picky 12... theres that big one dead center). > Unfortunately, the only Software disk I found only boots part way. The > other disks are Data disks, and they give me an error when I try to boot > from them. No idea on the system used, likely unique to them. Allison From marvin at rain.org Wed Sep 1 11:11:15 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: 16-sector disks? References: Message-ID: <37CD5023.9CF0F411@rain.org> Doug Spence wrote: > > Hi, > > How common are 16-sector hard sectored disks? > > I found some disks for my AES 7100, and that's what they are (17 > holes!). You didn't say whether they were 5 1/4" or 8" floppies (I'm not familiar with the AES 7100.) The 5 1/4" disks were used on, among others, the Vector Graphic S-100 computers. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Sep 1 13:11:53 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990901131153.490797a8@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:56 PM 8/31/99 -0700, Don wrote: > >And I being more cowardly like to power down and let sit for a while and >make the adjustment 'cold'. Then power up and see how you did. Repeat if >necessary. That's the smart way to do it! That CRT high voltage sure hurts! But beware that the CRT can act like a capacitor and store charges for a LONG time. I used to take new CRTS out of the shipping boxs where they had been sitting for a year or more and they would still bite me! Also most monitors and TVs have a hot chassis and one side of the AC line is connected directly to the frame. So unplug them before touching it and then ground a screw driver with a jumper and use it to make sure there are no stored charges anywhere. Joe From peter at joules.enterprise-plc.com Wed Sep 1 13:30:23 1999 From: peter at joules.enterprise-plc.com (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: haggling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bef4a8$0de4e3e0$0100a8c0@snoopy.joules.enterprise-plc.com> > I got 7 or 8 calls, and the first question > each time was whats wrong with them. Here in the UK the general rule when anything is sold privately is that whilst the buyer takes the risk as to whether what they buy is OK at the same timmew the seller must not misrepresent the item. As a result of this my first question when buying anything secondhand is 'what's wrong with it' as this then places the onus on the seller to describe any faults truthfully. Provided that the answer is satisfactory, even if faults are declared, I will still buy. Regards Pete From bill at chipware.com Wed Sep 1 15:31:22 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: This is getting annoying Message-ID: <001001bef4b8$f4701ae0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Once again, no messages since yesterday 8/31/99 at 5 PM. Am I the only one who keeps getting kicked off? Bill Sudbrink From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 1 12:57:43 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? In-Reply-To: <001c01bef414$f0862900$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Aug 31, 99 07:57:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3061 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990901/7badbf50/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 1 13:00:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? In-Reply-To: <37CCC9CB.94E5CD64@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Aug 31, 99 11:38:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1023 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990901/6c6f2fe3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 1 13:08:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990901131153.490797a8@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Sep 1, 99 01:11:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1802 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990901/88d5e7f1/attachment.ksh From a2k at one.net Wed Sep 1 17:21:08 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? In-Reply-To: <37CCC9CB.94E5CD64@rain.org> Message-ID: > I prefer to do it "hot" since I can see what I am doing. Regardless, I once > discharged a CRT fully (at least as far as I could touch the high voltage > connection and not get a shock.) I left it alone for a while and went back > to pick it up making the mistake of getting my hand too near the high > voltage connection. After making the proper explatives deleted, I now always > discharge the tube just before I am going to do something with it. > A teacher/mentor of mine repairs arcade machines during the summer. A new kid was assisting him fixing a Space Invaders (or was it PacMan?) machine. The kid said he discharged the tube and my friend believed him. The kid proceeded to start working on the tube and my friend was touching the chassis ground... with his left hand. His right hand came into contact with the kid's left arm, which was touching the HV connections... it literally threw him across the pub and he blacked out. When he came to, it was all he could do to keep from smashing the kid's face in. Kevin From jlwest at tseinc.com Wed Sep 1 17:58:43 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? FOLLOWUP QUESTION Message-ID: <000c01bef4cd$8bbc5080$0101a8c0@jay> Thanks to all for the advice on fixing the monitor tilt problem. Followup question: I'm probably being overcautious - monitors have always scared me due to the high possibility of shock hazzard. I believe it was Tony who said to basically unscrew the "hose clamp like" ring, then gently turn the tube end to adjust the screen. I'm doing this with power off because I'm a chicken (and I still realize there's some voltage lurking around). On this monitor, the "hose clamp like ring" unscrews easily. The ring itself was spread slightly (mechanics piston ring expander type tool). I can tell the clamp is quite loose. On the very end of the tube is a small circuit board, about 2 inches by two inches. This is soldered directly onto the 7 or so pins in a circle on the back of the tube. Not wanting to touch the tube, I figured I'd just gently turn the circuit card on the back. I have applied as much pressure as possible without running the risk of bending or breaking the pins coming out of the tube and into the circuit card. The thing won't turn. I just wanted to double check with folks here and make sure I wasn't trying to turn the end of the whole picture tube off! Suggestions? TIA! Jay West From at258 at osfn.org Wed Sep 1 18:16:58 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: This is getting annoying In-Reply-To: <001001bef4b8$f4701ae0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: No, I've been kicked off twice in recent months. On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Once again, no messages since yesterday 8/31/99 at > 5 PM. Am I the only one who keeps getting kicked off? > > Bill Sudbrink > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 1 18:29:44 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? FOLLOWUP QUESTION In-Reply-To: <000c01bef4cd$8bbc5080$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Jay West wrote: > Thanks to all for the advice on fixing the monitor tilt problem. Followup > question: > > I'm probably being overcautious - monitors have always scared me due to the > high possibility of shock hazzard. I believe it was Tony who said to > basically unscrew the "hose clamp like" ring, then gently turn the tube end > to adjust the screen. I'm doing this with power off because I'm a chicken > (and I still realize there's some voltage lurking around). On this monitor, > the "hose clamp like ring" unscrews easily. The ring itself was spread > slightly (mechanics piston ring expander type tool). I can tell the clamp is > quite loose. On the very end of the tube is a small circuit board, about 2 > inches by two inches. This is soldered directly onto the 7 or so pins in a > circle on the back of the tube. Not wanting to touch the tube, I figured I'd > just gently turn the circuit card on the back. I have applied as much > pressure as possible without running the risk of bending or breaking the > pins coming out of the tube and into the circuit card. The thing won't turn. > I just wanted to double check with folks here and make sure I wasn't trying > to turn the end of the whole picture tube off! Suggestions? > > TIA! > > Jay West STOP! CEASE!! DESIST!!! Trying to turn the whole tube is exactly what you are trying to do. The part that you want to turn is as far forward on the neck as you can get. Typically, it will have a flared coil that overlays the beginning of the flare of the CRT glass envelope. You do not want to turn the tube, you want to turn the coil assembly. - don From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Sep 1 18:45:44 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: interesting new addition Message-ID: whilst browsing thousands of LPs at a thrift store I came across an interesting computer related item. Its made by radio shack and it's called a microcomputer trainer. basically ,its a rudimentary computer with one cpu chip, a hex keypad, some LEDs and one hex LED display and speaker. the included book shows how to load and run simple programs as well as how to do math functions in binary and hex. It's complete and works and is probably from around 1982 time period. Also found an apple monitor /// so my profile-equipped apple /// is now complete and correct. d From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Sep 1 18:13:59 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990901131153.490797a8@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990901181359.21f7f84a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Tony, At 07:08 PM 9/1/99 +0100, you wrote: >> >> At 09:56 PM 8/31/99 -0700, Don wrote: >> > >> >And I being more cowardly like to power down and let sit for a while and >> >make the adjustment 'cold'. Then power up and see how you did. Repeat if >> >necessary. >> > >[Could you please limit your line length to something sane, like 80 >characters max] It should be now. Let me know how many chars/line you're getting. > >> That's the smart way to do it! That CRT high voltage sure hurts! But > >Colour is a lot worse than monochrome... But they both hurt! Color TVs use ~25kV and if I remember right most B/W sets use ~18 to 20 kV depending on the CRT size. > >But to rotate the yoke, you're not working very near the EHT. The only >thing you have to worry about is the 1kV-ish pulses on the horizontal >deflection coils. Unless the HV arcs. I've seen it happen more than once. Even 1000 volts isn't pleasant! > >> beware that the CRT can act like a capacitor and store charges for a LONG >> time. I used to take new CRTS out of the shipping boxs where they had been >> sitting for a year or more and they would still bite me! Also most >> monitors and TVs have a hot chassis and one side of the AC line is >> connected directly to the frame. So unplug them before touching it and > >Not really. > >TVs : Certainly in Europe, almost all modern TVs have an isolated >chassis. Mainly because all our TVs have a 'SCART socket' which carries >line-level audio, composite video, RGB, etc. It's a lot easier to isolate >the PSU (most TVs have an SMPSU anyway) than to isolate the dozen or so >signals on that socket. I can't comment on US-TVs, though -- are they >really still hot-chassis? Yeap, unless they've changed in the last couple of years. > >Monitors : For much the same reason (it's hard to isolate a composite >video signal, at least without mangling it), almost all monitors have >an isolated chassis. Having worked on dozens of monitors from just about >every manufacturer, I've come across exactly _1_ that had a hot chassis - >the 110V version of the TRS-80 model 1 monitor. Every other monitor has >been isolated. I've only worked on a few monitors so I'm not an expert but why take a chance? The TRS model I monitor was a modified TV. It and others like it would almost certainly have a hot chassis. > >I don't think finding a hot-chassis is much of a worry here. Then you're lucky! Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 1 18:16:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? In-Reply-To: from "LordTyran" at Sep 1, 99 06:21:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1033 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990902/fb26906f/attachment.ksh From jlwest at tseinc.com Wed Sep 1 19:14:27 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - fixed! (blushing very deeply) Message-ID: <003401bef4d8$1f9c41c0$0101a8c0@jay> Ok - ok - you can all stop laughing now! :) (about me trying to turn the tube). I never touched a monitor before and don't know electronically how they work at all. Hence, my question. The biggest reason I didn't turn the coil part others were talking about was that it had a big line of hotglue around it, so it looked to me like it was supposed to stay put. I went back and delicately removed the line of glue, and the coil thingy turns easily. The picture is now perfect - so thanks a MILLION to all who responded (and didn't laugh too loudly ). One last question if I can impose.... should I get out the hot glue gun and put another line of glue where the tube meets the coil in addition to tightening down the hose clamp doodad, or should I just skip the glue? Actually, it might not be glue, it looks like clear caulk. THANKS! Jay West From hermz1 at earthlink.net Wed Sep 1 19:26:07 1999 From: hermz1 at earthlink.net (Hermz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: Newbie member saying something!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199909020030.RAA12804@harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net> hello everyone. Hey all, just this weekend I went to a flea market and bought my 2nd "classic' computer. It is the original Compaq, to my knowledge. I paid $10 for it. I would like to find out more info about this thing, all I know its a 8088 machine (WP says so) and it has a internal drive thats about 10MB in size and its got 2 5 1/4 drives, which are useless to me (my other 4 computers are macs) If you know or know a site about this thing I would be thrilled. OH yeah, I also have a nice Mac Plus system, decked in platinum, and all I need is that dern 20MB drive that sits under it..but I tink I found one, unless one of you know where I could find one for cheap TIA
Hermz ^^^^^^^^ Is da man!!
From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Sep 1 19:33:34 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:07 2005 Subject: FW: DEC plus lots of other for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Found on Usenet. Anyone interested, please contact this fellow directly. -=-=- -=-=- On Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:30:34 -0600, in comp.sys.dec you wrote: >>From: geomac@hop-uky.campuscwix.net (George McCouch) >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec >>Subject: DEC plus lots of other for sale >>Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:30:34 -0600 >>Organization: W3GEO >>Lines: 42 >>Message-ID: >>NNTP-Posting-Host: s03-pm28.snwestsac.campuscwix.net >>X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.4.4 >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!news.sisna.com!pants.skycache.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!newsfeed.mathworks.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.campuscwix.net!geomac >>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.sys.dec:469 >> >>For Sale >> >>We have just upgraded our editorial front end system and our business >>system an have the following surplus equipment. >> >>25 - 286 PCs mostly AST with thicknet network cards, some VGA cards, and >>hard disk >> drives >>7 - 386 PCs AST but some generic (some 3.5 drives but mostly 5.25 floppy >>drives) >>12 - black and white and VGA monitors (mixed) >>6 - Arc net hubs >> core tape backup units >> Keyboards (these things did not have mouse cards!) >>20+ Sealed boxes of DOS 3.3 and Xywrite (word processor) >> >>2 - Varityper 5000 >>2 - Tegra XP 1000 >>2 - RTI 8400 Compugraphics emulators >>Several Racal modems >> >>DEC PDP 11/44 mainframe unit >>2 - RA 80 Drives >>1- TU 80 9 track tape unit >>Some VT 100 terminals >> >>This system was a newspaper editorial system from ATEX (formally DeWars Systems) >>The PDP was a newspaper business system. >> >>Want to move all of it, not inclined to separate. >>Located in Hopkinsville KY >> >>Everything was working when we decommissioned it on 8/28/99 And we were >>putting out a daily paper and several weekly papers with it for 9 years. >> >>Make an offer (please) >>Will consider donating to school or other institution who can use this stuff >> >> >>For More Information Please Call >>Richard Shepherd or George McCouch At: >>Kentucky New Era Inc. 270-886-4444 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 1 19:27:03 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - fixed! (blushing very deeply) In-Reply-To: <003401bef4d8$1f9c41c0$0101a8c0@jay> (jlwest@tseinc.com) References: <003401bef4d8$1f9c41c0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <19990902002703.13313.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The biggest reason I didn't turn the > coil part others were talking about was that it had a big line of hotglue > around it, so it looked to me like it was supposed to stay put. > > I went back and delicately removed the line of glue, and the coil thingy > turns easily. The picture is now perfect - so thanks a MILLION to all who > responded (and didn't laugh too loudly ). One last question if I can > impose.... should I get out the hot glue gun and put another line of glue > where the tube meets the coil in addition to tightening down the hose clamp > doodad, or should I just skip the glue? Actually, it might not be glue, it > looks like clear caulk. I don't recall whether you're talking about a monochrome or color tube. For a monochrome tube, adjusting the yoke is trivial. And yes, some glue to keep it in place is a good idea, unless you want to adjust it again soon. For a color tube, if you move the yoke you also have to deal with color purity and convergence, which can be a major pain in the ass. Once you get the purity adjusted (by turning the magnets), you definitely want to make sure the yoke is not going anywhere. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Sep 1 21:01:11 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <001a01bef48a$c91037a0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990901210111.2de7b692@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:00 AM 9/1/99 -0600, Dick wrote: >My plotter, admittedly not exactly identical, but VERY similar, requires >that you load the paper, press the button that says "chart hold" or some >such, then, after allowing the plotter to look for the edges of the paper >(an important step because it initializes the origin to the center of the >paper), press "on-line" at which time the DTR light becomes really >important. Now, the plotter will work from a null-modem arrangement if you >use X-on/x-off but I've had my best luck with the cable hooked up >differently. I'd go into detail, but that was with the old v3.22 OrCad >drafting utility and it had to have a specially wired cable to work >correctly. > >I've also opened the box and socketed and replaced the components on the >little serial interface board, which uses a Z-80 Dart and some 1488 and 1489 >drivers and receivers. If this little comm interface module isn't happy, >the whole plotter knows about it and doesn't work well. > >Back in the late '80's, when I got mine, the HP support for these (they were >still selling them) was terrible. No one really knew what was necessary to >make them work. I know. AFTER you bought it you found out that you needed all kinds of optional I/O ROMs and the like to make it work. > Nowadays, there's nobody there who'll even talk about them. Yeap. > >If you want to test the thing thoroughly, you'll have to get some of the >toilet paper that fits it, (mine only uses cut forms) making sure you still >have the cutoff blade located in the little groove at the front and then >load the paper in the paper path (straighforward, assume the obvious) and >then send it various drawings which use different size paper in different >orientation. Sounds like a HP 7221 plotter with paper feed. I have one of them and a 9874 that's similar but has a HP-IB inteface. Someone dropped the 9874 on one corner and bent the whole thing out of kilter. I've tried everything but I can't get it to feed paper right. The framne is too heavy to try and straighten out. Perhaps if I took it to someone that has a puller for straightening car frames ..... These machines will feed the appropriate amount, but don't >mind wasting paper, i.e. they feed the 36"-wide paper 14-15" for a portrait >'A'-size form, wasting most of the paper. That was the reason I got the >single-sheet version. I don't need it to run all night unattended, but I do >have to pay for the paper. You'll see that's not cheap. I always use mine if single sheet mode. BTW any idea where I can find a roll of paper for it? I only have a small amount of paper left and I'd like to have a roll to go with it. That may explain >why the drawings in most manuals are so difficult to read, having been >reduced from already-too-small drawings. > >The manuals may still be available somewhere, but I would get right on >trying to find them if I were you. I have a PRETTY GOOD bunch of plotter manuals. In fact, I have a good bunch of all of the HP computer and calculator manuals. I grab everyone that I can get my hands on! What model plotter do you have? I made the purchase of my plotter >contingent on complete manuals, so they were included. That became a >condition after I found that Martin Marietta, after buying 20 or so of these >still hadn't received a complete set of manuals even though each plotter was >supposed to come with them. Boy! Does this bring back memories! When I was working in Canada for Martin Marietta we could never got any of the drawings and other documents from MM in the US. I keep calling and they kept telling me that they had been sent. In fact some of them were sent three times with multiple copies everytime. I finally got the name of the guy that they were sent to in Canada and I went found him. It turns out that he kept one copy of EVERYTHING that went through his office. I checked the next office that handled the stuff and they did the same thing. So did the next office. And the one after that! As it turns out the handling people kept everything and the ones of us in engineering never got the stuff that was supposed to be coming to us. I think that was SOP for MM! > >If you have access to a Windows box with AutoCad 12 on it (I don't have a >later version to try this) you should be able to put it through its paces, >as that has an internal plotter driver which operates independently of the >one in WIndows. I've had no luck at all getting the Windows driver to do >anything. I suspect (after watching the lights on the breakout box) that >there is some incompatibility in the way they work their handshaking. >Perhaps the '488 port will work for you, if you've got one with drivers in >your system. Well I'm using a HP 7550 on the PC so it may be more compatible than your older model. But I think you need more than a null MODEM cable to make the plotter work. I have a manual with the cabling schematics somewhere and I think the HP requires more of the pins to be connected than most serial devices do. I'll look for the cabling drawings if you want them. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Sep 1 21:08:48 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: 16-sector disks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990901210848.2de793cc@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:37 AM 9/1/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, > >How common are 16-sector hard sectored disks? Do you mean 5 1/4" disks? I have some for one of the Vector Graphics machines. I don't know of any other machine that used 16s 5 1/4" disks but I'm sure there were some. All of the hard sectored floppy disks are pretty scarce IMO. I pick up all of them that I can. I recently lucked into a bunch of 32s 8" floppies. I have two machines that use them. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 1 19:45:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990901181359.21f7f84a@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Sep 1, 99 06:13:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3708 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990902/3ec3d891/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 1 19:51:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? FOLLOWUP QUESTION In-Reply-To: <000c01bef4cd$8bbc5080$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Sep 1, 99 05:58:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2504 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990902/524f1e0b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 1 20:16:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - fixed! (blushing very deeply) In-Reply-To: <003401bef4d8$1f9c41c0$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Sep 1, 99 07:14:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1130 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990902/74cd6d71/attachment.ksh From bsa3 at cornell.edu Wed Sep 1 21:17:43 1999 From: bsa3 at cornell.edu (Brad Ackerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Tek40xx setup mode info re-rqst Message-ID: <19990901221743.A16399@cornell.edu> Someone posted instructions for the setup mode of Tek 40xx series graphical terminals fairly recently, but I can't seem to find said message in the archives. Could the original poster please email a copy of that message to me or repost to the list? -- Brad Ackerman N1MNB "...faced with the men and women who bring home bsa3@cornell.edu the pork, voters almost always re-elect them." http://skaro.pair.com/ -- _The Economist_, 31 Oct 1998 From jritorto at nut.net Wed Sep 1 21:35:00 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Tek40xx setup mode info re-rqst In-Reply-To: <19990901221743.A16399@cornell.edu> Message-ID: Ugh, I was the one who requested this topic and I though I got snubbed. Please, yes, do repost everything and anything about this thread; I missed everything for some reason. Perhaps a look into the server's health is in order? thank you. jake [[yay; can't wait to start tiddling vectors on my 4015!]] On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Brad Ackerman wrote: > Someone posted instructions for the setup mode of Tek 40xx series > graphical terminals fairly recently, but I can't seem to find said > message in the archives. Could the original poster please email a > copy of that message to me or repost to the list? > > -- > Brad Ackerman N1MNB "...faced with the men and women who bring home > bsa3@cornell.edu the pork, voters almost always re-elect them." > http://skaro.pair.com/ -- _The Economist_, 31 Oct 1998 > > From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 1 22:18:56 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - fixed! (blushing very deeply) In-Reply-To: <003401bef4d8$1f9c41c0$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Jay West wrote: > Ok - ok - you can all stop laughing now! :) (about me trying to turn the > tube). I never touched a monitor before and don't know electronically how > they work at all. Hence, my question. The biggest reason I didn't turn the > coil part others were talking about was that it had a big line of hotglue > around it, so it looked to me like it was supposed to stay put. > > I went back and delicately removed the line of glue, and the coil thingy > turns easily. The picture is now perfect - so thanks a MILLION to all who > responded (and didn't laugh too loudly ). One last question if I can > impose.... should I get out the hot glue gun and put another line of glue Unless you anticipate moving the monitor around a LOT - read vibration - I would not bother with it. But, do retighten the clamp :) - don > where the tube meets the coil in addition to tightening down the hose clamp > doodad, or should I just skip the glue? Actually, it might not be glue, it > looks like clear caulk. > > THANKS! > > Jay West > > From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 1 22:31:30 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: 16-sector disks? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990901210848.2de793cc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Joe wrote: > At 04:37 AM 9/1/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi, > > > >How common are 16-sector hard sectored disks? > > Do you mean 5 1/4" disks? I have some for one of the Vector Graphics > machines. I don't know of any other machine that used 16s 5 1/4" disks but > I'm sure there were some. All of the hard sectored floppy disks are pretty > scarce IMO. I pick up all of them that I can. I recently lucked into a > bunch of 32s 8" floppies. I have two machines that use them. > > Joe I have a few Compudata 'Exidy' Hardsector disks that are apparently of European origin that are 16hs x 5.25". - don From Glenatacme at aol.com Wed Sep 1 22:59:53 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? Message-ID: <510c3df1.24ff5039@aol.com> Hello all: I hope this is "classic" enough . . . Though I've been involved with and have earned my keep with desktop microcomputers for a period covering almost twenty years, I was in another field during the time when CP/M was popular. I'd like to add a CP/M based machine to my collection but as with all of my old computers I want to have a system I can use for at least one business-related application. This helps make my collection tax-deductable as a business expense ;>) BTW, I don't mind writing my own code. What was the best CP/M based machine for business? Are applications and utilities still obtainable? What about development tools and documentation? Your opinions, please. Thanks, Glen Goodwin 0/0 From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 1 23:25:06 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <510c3df1.24ff5039@aol.com> Message-ID: >What was the best CP/M based machine for business? Are applications and >utilities still obtainable? What about development tools and documentation? Don't know how it is for business, but I'd say the best CP/M machine would be a Commodore 128. After all it has the best games of any system that ran CP/M :^) Well, that's not quite true. I've run CP/M-86 on a Pentium/133, and played a couple cool games on it. Personally when I think CP/M though, I think "Kaypro 2". It came with what would have been at the time some decent business apps, including WordStar. Then again I think I've got an Apple 2 clone that came with W*. Hmmm, that's right Apples could run CP/M with an add-on card... OK, OK, I'll try and be serious for a minute. Based on what you want it for, the Kaypro sounds like the computer for you. Unless you're also wanting a S-100 based system. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From DD950 at prodigy.net Wed Sep 1 23:33:15 1999 From: DD950 at prodigy.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? Message-ID: <000e01bef4fc$4cfdf400$fdbcfea9@cel-366> No Doubt about it, you need a Kaypro. They came with just about all the software you would need to run a small office, Wordstar, DataStar, DB2, Basic and the list went on. They were very reliable. I used mine right up until 1991. The Kaypro 2X I had bought in 1984 ran WordStar faster than the IBM Xt's. As they were the portables of the day, it will take up less space than some of the other CP/M machines of the time period. My two cents. Jim "If the automobile had followed the same development cycle as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year, killing everyone inside." ( Robert X. Cringely, "InfoWorld" ) From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Sep 1 23:50:39 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <000e01bef4fc$4cfdf400$fdbcfea9@cel-366> from "Jim" at Sep 01, 1999 09:33:15 PM Message-ID: <199909020450.WAA25746@calico.litterbox.com> Yup. I have a Kaypro 4/84. Restoration has consisted of cleaning the heads in the floppy drives. I'm told the floppy drives are the achilies heel of the kaypro, since the boot drive never powers off and stops spinning. There are a mess of Kaypro experts on this list, as I found out when I was getting my 4/84 up and running. > > No Doubt about it, you need a Kaypro. > > They came with just about all the software you would need to run a small > office, Wordstar, DataStar, DB2, Basic and the list went on. > > They were very reliable. I used mine right up until 1991. The Kaypro 2X I > had bought in 1984 ran WordStar faster than the IBM Xt's. > > As they were the portables of the day, it will take up less space than some > of the other CP/M machines of the time period. > > My two cents. > > Jim > > BTW I'm a different Jim from the one who I'm replying to. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 1 23:47:35 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: HP DraftMaster I Message-ID: <001201bef4fe$60d820c0$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded comments below thanx Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 7:16 PM Subject: Re: HP DraftMaster I >At 09:00 AM 9/1/99 -0600, Dick wrote: > I know. AFTER you bought it you found out that you needed all kinds of >optional I/O ROMs and the like to make it work. > Actually, it was working perfectly about 2 minutes after I replaced the parts on the serial I/O board. Now probably only one was defective, but I replaced them all. There aren't many. > >> Nowadays, there's nobody there who'll even talk about them. > > Yeap. >> >>If you want to test the thing thoroughly, you'll have to get some of the > Sounds like a HP 7221 plotter with paper feed. I have one of them and a >9874 that's similar but has a HP-IB inteface. Someone dropped the 9874 on >one corner and bent the whole thing out of kilter. I've tried everything >but I can't get it to feed paper right. The framne is too heavy to try and >straighten out. Perhaps if I took it to someone that has a puller for >straightening car frames ..... > God be thanked, it's not at all like that miserable piece of junk! If id hadn't said HP on it, nobody with more than two grey cells would have taken one home. > > These machines will feed the appropriate amount, but don't >>mind wasting paper, i.e. they feed the 36"-wide paper 14-15" for a portrait >>'A'-size form, wasting most of the paper. That was the reason I got the >>single-sheet version. I don't need it to run all night unattended, but I do >>have to pay for the paper. You'll see that's not cheap. > > I always use mine if single sheet mode. BTW any idea where I can find a >roll of paper for it? I only have a small amount of paper left and I'd >like to have a roll to go with it. > > >That may explain >>why the drawings in most manuals are so difficult to read, having been >>reduced from already-too-small drawings. >> >>The manuals may still be available somewhere, but I would get right on >>trying to find them if I were you. > > I have a PRETTY GOOD bunch of plotter manuals. In fact, I have a good >bunch of all of the HP computer and calculator manuals. I grab everyone >that I can get my hands on! What model plotter do you have? > Well, the manual set for mine (HP7585B) weights just short of 25 lbs and costs about $500 to duplicate because of the half-tone schematics and other drawings, which won't Xerox at all readably. > > I made the purchase of my plotter >>contingent on complete manuals, so they were included. That became a >>condition after I found that Martin Marietta, after buying 20 or so of these >>still hadn't received a complete set of manuals even though each plotter was >>supposed to come with them. > > Boy! Does this bring back memories! When I was working in Canada for >Martin Marietta we could never got any of the drawings and other documents >from MM in the US. I keep calling and they kept telling me that they had >been sent. In fact some of them were sent three times with multiple copies >everytime. I finally got the name of the guy that they were sent to in >Canada and I went found him. It turns out that he kept one copy of >EVERYTHING that went through his office. I checked the next office that >handled the stuff and they did the same thing. So did the next office. And >the one after that! As it turns out the handling people kept everything and >the ones of us in engineering never got the stuff that was supposed to be >coming to us. I think that was SOP for MM! > >> >>If you have access to a Windows box with AutoCad 12 on it (I don't have a >>later version to try this) you should be able to put it through its paces, >>as that has an internal plotter driver which operates independently of the >>one in WIndows. I've had no luck at all getting the Windows driver to do >>anything. I suspect (after watching the lights on the breakout box) that >>there is some incompatibility in the way they work their handshaking. >>Perhaps the '488 port will work for you, if you've got one with drivers in >>your system. > > Well I'm using a HP 7550 on the PC so it may be more compatible than >your older model. But I think you need more than a null MODEM cable to make >the plotter work. I have a manual with the cabling schematics somewhere >and I think the HP requires more of the pins to be connected than most >serial devices do. I'll look for the cabling drawings if you want them. > The 7550 was an earlier, and much smaller, version from the same family. I briefly had one but found the pens not to be interchangeable with my 7585, and was too cheap to stock two sets of pens. For 'B' size, as th 7550 does, I use an HP1120C printer. > Joe > From ddameron at earthlink.net Wed Sep 1 21:24:07 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990901131153.490797a8@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990901212407.2bc72474@earthlink.net> At 07:08 PM 9/1/99 +0100, Tony wrote: >TVs : Certainly in Europe, almost all modern TVs have an isolated >chassis. Mainly because all our TVs have a 'SCART socket' which carries >line-level audio, composite video, RGB, etc. It's a lot easier to isolate >the PSU (most TVs have an SMPSU anyway) than to isolate the dozen or so >signals on that socket. I can't comment on US-TVs, though -- are they >really still hot-chassis? > I quess "hot chassis" isn't as clear as it once was. TV's don't have mains 60Hz power transformers like they used to. Are they many with 50Hz ones there? What they have is a mains rectified DC supply, typically 170V for 120V AC that runs the horiz. output stage. Much of the rest of the TV runs off the flyback transformer windings, which can be considered isolated. This is like SMPSU's except in a TV, the filter cap, horiz. output transistor, etc. may be scattered around the TV, and are all "hot", unlike many computer SMPSU where the mains side circuits are obviously apart from the output side. Of course, the horiz. driver has to somehow be powered to start up the TV, so may be hot as well. As for a "chassis" it has about disappeared. There is only the PC board, the CRT, and a pod with the controls, all in a plastic cabinet. Maybe ground could be considered the return of any inputs, or the CRT outer coating (not always the same circuit point) -Dave From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Sep 1 23:53:54 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: nasty chassis, surprise inside In-Reply-To: References: from "Jacob Ritorto" at Aug 31, 99 03:31:39 pm Message-ID: I saw the rear end of a old Apple IIe peeking out of its burial in a big box of misc junk, and for no good reason dug it out. What a junker, half a dozen keys were missing, and the case looked like it had been on the bottom of a lot of pallets. I could hear most of the cards were loose inside, either pulled and left, or the unit was dropped upside down or something. The power supply didn't look right, kind of squished with a fan on the top, and no Apple logo. The words "hard drive" on it though prompted me to close the case and go buy it. ;) I took it home, blew out the dust, and reseated all the cards. Then plugged it in. INSTANT booting, must be some kind of rom card, then the hard drive spun up, and I have two apparently emulated hard floppies, slot 7 drives 1 and 2. Its a Applied inginuity drive and controller, Ramworks card, Hayes modem, and a couple other cards. Nasty looking little bugger, (the case and keyboard are junk and will be replaced), but fast, fast, fast. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 1 23:57:59 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? Message-ID: <001f01bef4ff$bad1c4e0$0400c0a8@winbook> There's no doubt that there were several really good CP/M machines out there but I suppose when you say CP/M "machine" you're not referring to the boxes built to order by the dealers. These were often S-100 boxes with Cromemco boards, running 5-6 MHz using ultra-fast PERSCI 8" floppies and PRIAM or similarly big and expensive hard disks. Soldier of Fortune magazine had two boxes built with Systems Group boards, in CCS mainframes and using KONAN SMC-100 adapters to their CDC Lark SMD drives. Unquestionably, if you're looking for a computer "brand" it would have to be either a Kaypro or, of course, the Apple-II, with a Z-80 card, 16K memory add-on, SVA 8" drive controller, and the VIDEX or similar 24x80 display board. You could actually use that for useful work. At the age I'd reached by 1980, (35) I was still able to read the Kaypro display, however, but the full-sized one normally used with the Apple][ was easier to use. In any case, I read somewhere that there were as many Apple ][ machines running CP/M as any other single system. I never learned to like them, though . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jim To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 10:35 PM Subject: Re: Best CP/M machine? >No Doubt about it, you need a Kaypro. > >They came with just about all the software you would need to run a small >office, Wordstar, DataStar, DB2, Basic and the list went on. > >They were very reliable. I used mine right up until 1991. The Kaypro 2X I >had bought in 1984 ran WordStar faster than the IBM Xt's. > >As they were the portables of the day, it will take up less space than some >of the other CP/M machines of the time period. > >My two cents. > >Jim > > >"If the automobile had followed the same development cycle as the computer, >a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and >explode once a year, killing everyone inside." >( Robert X. Cringely, "InfoWorld" ) > > > > > From jritorto at nut.net Thu Sep 2 00:31:26 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Speaking of CP/M... (Re: Best CP/M machine?) In-Reply-To: <001f01bef4ff$bad1c4e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: While we're on the subject, I'd just like to mention that I have an original copy of the CP/M-80 version of the MIX C compiler. 5 1/4 floppies in some Kaypro format. Book too. I bought it about eight years ago directly from Mix to run on my Commodore 128. At first they said they had no more books but when I sounded really sad, they offered me one with a "slightly creased" cover (turned out to be quite near perfect, actually) I think it was $29.95 + shipping. I bought it because I was taking a c programming class in college and refused to use peecees back then because I thought the architecture was too crass to bother with an upgrade. PS. I'm still M$ free, BTW, but I sold out about three years ago and now use commodity hardware w/FreeBSD in addition to my pdp11s running 2BSD jake From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 2 02:40:08 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <001201bef4fe$60d820c0$0400c0a8@winbook> (edick@idcomm.com) References: <001201bef4fe$60d820c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <19990902074008.15319.qmail@brouhaha.com> Joe wrote: > Sounds like a HP 7221 plotter with paper feed. I have one of them and a > 9874 that's similar but has a HP-IB inteface. Someone dropped the 9874 on > one corner and bent the whole thing out of kilter. I've tried everything > but I can't get it to feed paper right. The framne is too heavy to try and > straighten out. Perhaps if I took it to someone that has a puller for > straightening car frames ..... I think you must be referring to the HP 9872. They sold basically the same plotter as three models: HP 7220 - RS-232 serial, compact binary language HP 7221 - RS-232 serial, HP-GL, same hardware as 7220 but with different ROMS HP 9872 - IEEE-488 (HP-IB), HP-GL Different letter suffixes denoted the generation of the plotter, and whether it had the roll feed (e.g., 9872 A/B/C without, and 9872 S/T with). Early generations had four pen stalls, and later ones had eight. Note that these were the first HP-GL plotters, and the language evolved some minor differences that prevent some modern software from working with them. I built my own serial-to-488 box to use with mine, and my firmware tweaks the HP-GL when necessary. "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > God be thanked, it's not at all like that miserable piece of junk! If id > hadn't said HP on it, nobody with more than two grey cells would have taken > one home. I can't believe you'd say that about this series of plotters, which were very well-engineered and solidly built flatbed plotters. Are you sure you're not thinking about the 7225, or the much later "consumer" grit-wheel plotters such as the 7470 and 7475? From hrothgar at total.net Wed Sep 1 23:09:40 1999 From: hrothgar at total.net (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: 16-sector disks? In-Reply-To: <001d01bef48b$6456e380$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On 01-Sep-99, Richard Erlacher wrote: >I don't know how common they were, but most 8" floppy drives seem to >have a built-in provision for them. Sorry, I didn't specify that these are 5.25" disks. I still don't have anything with an 8" drive. >Unfortunately, the controllers which operate on hard-sectored formats >seem to be like hen's teeth. If your system knows what to do with >these, then you're in luck. Only my AES box knows what to do with them. I have no way of accessing the contents of these disks, because the boot disk appears to be DOA. Are you saying that there are controllers for IBM-PCs that can access hard sectored disks? How would I know one if I saw one? :) >Does your system read your data diskettes after you've booted from the >hard-sectored boot diskette? No. It only makes it part way through booting. After apparently reading for a while (14 moves of the head at regular intervals), it sounds like the drive's head starts shaking back and forth. Either the disk is bad and it's attempting to read the same data over and over again, or the boot process is stalling for some other reason. Nothing comes up on the screen, though, and it makes no difference if a Data disk is in the other drive. I'm hoping that the machine doesn't need to have a printer connected to it to start up. This machine will find the boot disk in either of its two drives, BTW, which is kind of neat. >Dick -- Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: hrothgar@total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ From hrothgar at total.net Thu Sep 2 06:22:26 1999 From: hrothgar at total.net (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: 16-sector disks? In-Reply-To: <37CD5023.9CF0F411@rain.org> Message-ID: On 01-Sep-99, Marvin wrote: >Doug Spence wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> How common are 16-sector hard sectored disks? >> >> I found some disks for my AES 7100, and that's what they are (17 >> holes!). >You didn't say whether they were 5 1/4" or 8" floppies (I'm not >familiar with the AES 7100.) Sorry. They're 5.25" disks. If you have a graphics-capable browser, you can see my AES 7100 at: http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/AES7100/index.html >The 5 1/4" disks were used on, among others, the Vector Graphic >S-100 computers. OK, so at least the media wasn't specially produced for AES. :) -- Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: hrothgar@total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ From hrothgar at total.net Wed Sep 1 22:49:27 1999 From: hrothgar at total.net (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: 16-sector disks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 01-Sep-99, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >> How common are 16-sector hard sectored disks? >Not very common. Well, at least I can make some more from soft sectored disks once I find my mother's miniature hole punch. :) >> I found some disks for my AES 7100, and that's what they are (17 >> holes!). >Yep, index plus 16 sector holes. The 17th one is oddly positioned to >the rest so the system can tell it's at the start/end of the media. Yup, I noticed that. Before I had seen a hard sectored disk I didn't know how that would be accomplished. I thought that maybe the sector holes would be at a different distance from the centre of the disk, with another hole in the jacket. I prefer the solution that was used in the real world - less wasted disk surface! :) >Oh, 10 sector (NS*) have 11 holes (if you want to be picky 12... theres >that big one dead center). I have ONE 10-sector disk that was sent to me by a member of this list a while back, in an attempt to get this AES box to do something. But not even the drive light would turn on with that disk. It likes the 16-sector ones, though. The lights come on, the head moves, and then an error message comes up on the screen. :) >> Unfortunately, the only Software disk I found only boots part way. >> The other disks are Data disks, and they give me an error when I >> try to boot from them. >No idea on the system used, likely unique to them. Yes, I'm afraid so. And the flaky software disk I have even has the name of the company it was registered to stamped on it. I doubt I'll be finding much WaR3Z for this machine. :) It's an 'office system'. It's primarily a word processor, but it can join a network, and can do some number crunching and database functions with the standard software. I found the disks inside some pockets behind the front cover of a manual I found. Unfortunately, I didn't get the full set of disks. And the back cover of the manual was missing, possibly with the rest of the disks. Its software is disk-based, though, so if I could a) dump the bootstrap to disk and b) access the disks on some other machine, I could conceivably write my own OS for it. Apparently there was a version of CP/M for some AES boxes floating about out there. >Allison -- Doug Spence Hrothgar's Cool Old Junk Page: hrothgar@total.net http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/ From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Sep 2 07:32:29 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <510c3df1.24ff5039@aol.com> Message-ID: > What was the best CP/M based machine for business? Are applications and > utilities still obtainable? What about development tools and documentation? The short list is long! Kaypro (any) Compupro (s100 any) Morrow Northstar Horizon Even an IMSAI with a disk. As to software check ftp.simtel.net (I forget if it's net, org or com). Also the OAK Archive (oakland.edu). You sould not have any difficulty finding at least 10-20 sites with CPM-80 software. There were some 20,000 on the walnut creek CPM cdrom alone so thgere are plenty out there. Development tools, I'd guess between 20-30 different languages alone including all the well known ones (basic, Pascal, C, Fortran). Then there are the assemblers linkers and editors. You will be able to find whole applications as well for most any use. It was not an orphan OS and was very actively used by many businesses into the early 90s! Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Sep 2 07:52:56 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <199909020450.WAA25746@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: > There are a mess of Kaypro experts on this list, as I found out when > I was getting my 4/84 up and running. > > > > > No Doubt about it, you need a Kaypro. Certainly a good choice and fairly common. Two comments, it's far from the smallest or fastest. But like I said there are LOTs of machines with 8080,8085 or z80 than ran CPM. I'd suggest most any with the following: Z80/Z180 cpu (greatest software following) Softsector floppy based on a standard chip (179x or 765) at least 48k of ram (64k or more is better) Hard disk is nice but not required. The last of machine that fill that bill is HUGE. Oh, the largest ones were the OSI and the smallest were AmproLB based bookshelf systems. Allison From at258 at osfn.org Thu Sep 2 07:59:59 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <510c3df1.24ff5039@aol.com> Message-ID: My favourite was the old Xerox 820-II, with the high keyboard and 8inch drives. It runs Dbase and WordStar with great dignity. I know there are plenty of other applications floating around for it, too. multiplan comes immediately to mind. My second favourite was the Epson QX-10, also very lovely, with lots of interesting software. The Xerox keyboards always struck me as being particularly sensual and pleasant to use. The Epson has a ramdrive. The Epson is also smaller and a bit easier to move about. On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > Hello all: > > I hope this is "classic" enough . . . > > Though I've been involved with and have earned my keep with desktop > microcomputers for a period covering almost twenty years, I was in another > field during the time when CP/M was popular. > > I'd like to add a CP/M based machine to my collection but as with all of my > old computers I want to have a system I can use for at least one > business-related application. This helps make my collection tax-deductable > as a business expense ;>) BTW, I don't mind writing my own code. > > What was the best CP/M based machine for business? Are applications and > utilities still obtainable? What about development tools and documentation? > > Your opinions, please. > > Thanks, > > Glen Goodwin > 0/0 > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From musicman38 at mindspring.com Thu Sep 2 08:42:24 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? References: Message-ID: <37CE7EC0.F6CB6674@mindspring.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > >What was the best CP/M based machine for business? Are applications and > >utilities still obtainable? What about development tools and documentation? I would cast my vote for the Kaypro I have one in my office that runs with a nice continous demo program that I wrote in BASIC. Its a nice conversation piece everyone that enters my office is imediatly drawn to it.. Its a real work horse, my has been on for 2 years now almost everyday. These machines are easily found on Ebay for around $40.00.. Phil... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 206 bytes Desc: Card for Phil Clayton Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990902/5c23ffad/vcard.vcf From musicman38 at mindspring.com Thu Sep 2 08:51:32 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Why is CP/M faster than DOS References: <000e01bef4fc$4cfdf400$fdbcfea9@cel-366> Message-ID: <37CE80E4.FBA985B6@mindspring.com> After reading all the comments on CP/M computers a comment was made that CP/M is a faster OS that DOS.. I have found this to be very true. My Kaypro 1X boots up in 5 seconds, and loads MBASIC in about another 5 seconds, also executes the same BASIC code faster than on my XT. Now on my old Compaq XT, it takes about 30 seconds just for the hardware to powerup, then another 20 seconds to boot to a DOS prompt, then another 15 seconds to boot BASIC. So can some of the experts here tell me why CP/M is so much faster ? Phil... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 206 bytes Desc: Card for Phil Clayton Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990902/8bcf3a52/vcard.vcf From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 2 08:58:28 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Why is CP/M faster than DOS In-Reply-To: <37CE80E4.FBA985B6@mindspring.com> References: <000e01bef4fc$4cfdf400$fdbcfea9@cel-366> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990902085828.011e0840@vpwisfirewall> At 09:51 AM 9/2/99 -0400, you wrote: > >So can some of the experts here tell me why CP/M is so much faster ? My first impression is the difference between an OS that's hard-coded for particular devices versus one that's more dynamic and hot-patched with device drivers. I'm sure CP/M eventually added those dynamic features, but DOS was much more I/O bound at boot time. You can get DOS in ROM, too. Second, there's that (yet unnamed?) law that says as the CPU gets faster, software designers feel it's more acceptable for their software to run slower and take longer to load and consume more space on the storage media. Tell me why my dual Pentium Pro system takes ten seconds to "new" a document in Word. (Load a dozen wizards and templates I don't use, all so I can pick "blank".) - John From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Sep 2 09:06:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > My favourite was the old Xerox 820-II, with the high keyboard and 8inch > drives. It runs Dbase and WordStar with great dignity. I know there are Another good machine. I have a visual1050, IT's interesting as it was one of the CPM3 machines with integral video and detached keyboard like a PC, mono video with graphics was handled by a 6502 and the main cpu was z80. It was particulary nice as it has a SASI-adaptek-MFM hard disk and the floppies were an odd 96tpi 380k format, but they read RX50s. The laptop Epson PX-8 is a fair cpm machine as well. Small too. Others I have as examples: Micromint SB180 w/SCSI option AmproLB (it is!) DECMATEIII with z80 APU DEC Vt180 apps/lang/tools I have for those and more listed mostly to show a partial list of what was/is available. Dbase Multiplan FMS80 Wordstar Calcstar Turbo Pascal, C MIX C MS Bascom and basic UCSD Psystem BDS C SmallC TinyC baseX S-basic C-basic (BASICs about 10-12 of them at last count) Algol68 DRI PLM MS fortran Forth Assemblers 8080/8085/z80 (asm, zasm, ZAS, asmz...) Xasms for 6800, 1802, 6502, NEC7800, 8051, 8048, Editors (too many!) File and print tools fancyfont and Runoff plus others. Most of the Adventure game (Zork, ADvent, millionair...) Comm programs (modem7, MEX, COMM, Microcom...) Disk format translation tools (many!) CPM upgrades (ZCPR, ZCCP, P2DOS, ZCPM, CONIX) Various business packages (accounting, inventory GL) And the CPM Cdrom. What makes most of these special to me is amny are available as sources as well (CPM too!). Most of these are available at the varions archive sites for free! Also some of XT class PCs with NEC V20 were CPM80 candidate machines as the V20 has 8080 emulation on chip. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Sep 2 09:14:02 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Why is CP/M faster than DOS In-Reply-To: <37CE80E4.FBA985B6@mindspring.com> Message-ID: > powerup, > then another 20 seconds to boot to a DOS prompt, then another 15 seconds to > boot BASIC. > > So can some of the experts here tell me why CP/M is so much faster ? Really simple... Command.com (even V1) is bigger that CPM complete, CCP, BDOS and BIOS are typically around 6.5-8k on most cpm systems. to be fair most CPM systems do not do a POST so that is a consideration too. FYI: MS-basic for CPM is roughly 30k, the compiler is smaller. So far I've show the code as smaller I may add in 1982 the typical z80 was 4 mhz and there were 6mhz parts around where the average XT was 4.77mhz and the cpus use about the same number of cycles to do similar things so the z80 was nearly as fast and ran a lot less code to do it all typically faster. By 1985 286s were 8-10mhz and z80s to 8mhz (or z180s to 10mhz) were still beating them in text based apps... reason codebloat. It's hard to beat compact efficient code on a good cpu. An aside apple][s were quite able to beat XT PCs, someteimes with better graphics. Reason, tight code. Allison From bo at zimmers.net Thu Sep 2 09:25:00 1999 From: bo at zimmers.net (Bo Zimmerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Speaking of CP/M... (Re: Best CP/M machine?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199909021425.JAA12722@sunny.maxserv.com> Awsome. How would one go about getting a copy of that compiler today, do ya think? I have Commodore 128 myself and could use a nice C compiler. - Bo > While we're on the subject, I'd just like to mention that I have > an original copy of the CP/M-80 version of the MIX C compiler. 5 1/4 > floppies in some Kaypro format. Book too. I bought it about eight years > ago directly from Mix to run on my Commodore 128. At first they said they > had no more books but when I sounded really sad, they offered me one with > a "slightly creased" cover (turned out to be quite near perfect, actually) > I think it was $29.95 + shipping. I bought it because I was > taking a c programming class in college and refused to use peecees back > then because I thought the architecture was too crass to bother with an > upgrade. > > PS. I'm still M$ free, BTW, but I sold out about three years ago and now > use commodity hardware w/FreeBSD in addition to my pdp11s running 2BSD > > jake > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Sep 2 09:52:35 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: HP plotters Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990902095235.232f97f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi All, I got this from a friend of mine. You can see there are still lots of good reasons to keep a real plotter around. So save that plotter! Joe > >A little while back a friend of mine (little bit of a collector, he >has a Basis 108 and a DEC Pro 350, and some VAXen that he used to use) >was starting to get into slide photography and going through his >father's collection of slides (mostly having to do with the NYC subway >system and like things in other cities). He decided he wanted to >print on photo slide mounts; handwriting them doesn't work for him >because he has crappy handwriting. > >So we spent some time at Fry's looking at inkjet printers, and decided >the paper paths were too contorted -- no way to get a slide mount >through there, let alone the sort of cardboard carrier we thought we'd >need. > >We thought about it a while and decided that a plotter would be the >way to go. Of course, who makes plotters in this day of cheap color >inkjet printers (with expensive ink cartridges)? So I went to the >next Computer Recycling Center sale and picked up a somewhat grungy >7550A for $10 and passed it along to him. He bought some pens on >eBay, worked out some HP-GL, hacked up a pen and an extra-fine >Sharpie, and put together some bits of cardboard to make a carrier for >a few slide mounts, and he was all set. > >So I guess they still have their uses. His only complaint is that the >7550 takes up too much table space. I guess I'm keeping my eyes open for >an 7470 or 7475 with RS-232 interface. > > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Sep 2 09:35:28 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Why is CP/M faster than DOS In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990902085828.011e0840@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: > I'm sure CP/M eventually added those dynamic features, but DOS was > much more I/O bound at boot time. You can get DOS in ROM, too. Don't tell my Epson PX-8, CPM in rom. Theres not much to romming cpm. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 2 09:31:09 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: HP DraftMaster I Message-ID: <000801bef54f$cd060d60$0400c0a8@winbook> After I wrote this remark I got to thinking . . . the model I was dogging was a flatbed not quite the right size for "B" format but had analog inputs rather than RS-232 or HPGL. It was a 72-something, but my aging memory can't produce the "something" as it once did. Several fellows I knew had snagged them and I spent literally weeks with each of them trying to make them perform repeatably. They looked and smelled solid, but didn't behave that way. Even when they were more or less operational, the pen speed was very slow. The 74xx series, by way of contrast, was more or less like a real plotter though it was just a toy . . . sort of a stopgap while they developed a useable printer with which to do the same thing. The 75xx models actually behaved like real plotters. That tray-fed tabletop 7550 was the smalles in this series, IIRC, but it had eight pens and could plot quickly and accurately as could its bigger bretheren. There are some folks who were sorry to see these dinosaurs pass, but anyone who's had to wait 45 minutes for one to plot a "D"-sized drawing will tell you the ink-spitters are a gigantic improvement. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 1:49 AM Subject: Re: HP DraftMaster I >Joe wrote: >> Sounds like a HP 7221 plotter with paper feed. I have one of them and a >> 9874 that's similar but has a HP-IB inteface. Someone dropped the 9874 on >> one corner and bent the whole thing out of kilter. I've tried everything >> but I can't get it to feed paper right. The framne is too heavy to try and >> straighten out. Perhaps if I took it to someone that has a puller for >> straightening car frames ..... > >I think you must be referring to the HP 9872. They sold basically the >same plotter as three models: > >HP 7220 - RS-232 serial, compact binary language >HP 7221 - RS-232 serial, HP-GL, same hardware as 7220 but with different ROMS >HP 9872 - IEEE-488 (HP-IB), HP-GL > >Different letter suffixes denoted the generation of the plotter, and whether >it had the roll feed (e.g., 9872 A/B/C without, and 9872 S/T with). Early >generations had four pen stalls, and later ones had eight. > >Note that these were the first HP-GL plotters, and the language evolved >some minor differences that prevent some modern software from working with >them. I built my own serial-to-488 box to use with mine, and my firmware >tweaks the HP-GL when necessary. > >"Richard Erlacher" wrote: >> God be thanked, it's not at all like that miserable piece of junk! If id >> hadn't said HP on it, nobody with more than two grey cells would have taken >> one home. > >I can't believe you'd say that about this series of plotters, which were >very well-engineered and solidly built flatbed plotters. Are you >sure you're not thinking about the 7225, or the much later "consumer" >grit-wheel plotters such as the 7470 and 7475? From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Sep 2 09:38:28 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: HP plotters In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990902095235.232f97f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > >7550 takes up too much table space. I guess I'm keeping my eyes open for > >an 7470 or 7475 with RS-232 interface. I have a 7475/serial, they are nice to have/use. No, it's not for sale as it is useful! Allison From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 2 09:47:04 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? Message-ID: <001701bef552$1f2822c0$0400c0a8@winbook> From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 2 09:53:36 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Why is CP/M faster than DOS In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990902085828.011e0840@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990902095336.01533d90@vpwisfirewall> At 10:35 AM 9/2/99 -0400, allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >> I'm sure CP/M eventually added those dynamic features, but DOS was >> much more I/O bound at boot time. You can get DOS in ROM, too. > >Don't tell my Epson PX-8, CPM in rom. Theres not much to romming cpm. I know, I didn't say you couldn't put CP/M in ROM. My point was that CP/M was more easily put into a small, quickly loaded memory image than the early DOS. - John From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Sep 2 10:51:40 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Why is CP/M faster than DOS In-Reply-To: <37CE80E4.FBA985B6@mindspring.com> References: <000e01bef4fc$4cfdf400$fdbcfea9@cel-366> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990902105140.222fd084@mailhost.intellistar.net> Phil, The code is a lot smaller for one thing. I can run CPM, a menu program and an editor in 64K on my HP 125. Try that in a DOS machine! Also many of the old CPM machines had drives that ran continously. Good for access time but bad for life span of the drive and disks. Joe At 09:51 AM 9/2/99 -0400, you wrote: >After reading all the comments on CP/M computers a comment was made that CP/M >is a faster OS that DOS.. I have found this to be very true. >My Kaypro 1X boots up in 5 seconds, and loads MBASIC in about another 5 >seconds, also >executes the same BASIC code faster than on my XT. > >Now on my old Compaq XT, it takes about 30 seconds just for the hardware to >powerup, >then another 20 seconds to boot to a DOS prompt, then another 15 seconds to >boot BASIC. > >So can some of the experts here tell me why CP/M is so much faster ? > >Phil... > > > > >Attachment Converted: "C:\ATTACH\vcard19.vcf" > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Sep 2 10:56:56 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: HP 120 was Re: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <37CE7EC0.F6CB6674@mindspring.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990902105656.3d47258a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Since we're on the subject of CPM machines I'll mention that I just picked up a HP 120 CPM machine. It looks a lot like a HP 9816. Cute little bugger. And it's a lot easier to move around than the HP 125 that I was using. I have the OS for it and HP's menu program (PAM) and a word processor. Does anyone have any other software for the HP 120 or 125? I'm not sure if it will run regular CPM software or not but probably not knowing how HP did things. I can read both 8, 3.5 and 5.25" disks on them but they have to be in HP's oddball LIF format. Joe From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 2 09:58:35 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Why is CP/M faster than DOS Message-ID: <002901bef553$a2732b60$0400c0a8@winbook> On my Ampro Little Board (the original one) on which I have a small hard disk, though this is by no means limited to the hard disk, software loads VERY fast as well. It's no coincidence, I believe, that this one has the Kaypro format as an optional diskette format. The difference, I belive is the way data is stored on the diskette. If you have the right combination of sector skew and data block size, tansfers to/from diskette are quite fast. What's more, since CP/M systems didn't normally attempt to do all the crazy stuff that DOS attempts to do with its BIST/POST firmware, there's less to wait for. I think one will be disappointed with the real performance of the typical 4 MHz Z-80 if it's evaluated in an I/O-independent way, since we've become accustomed to much faster processors. Nonetheless, turning the machine on and having the prompt waiting for you by the time the monitor is warmed up enough to show the image is quite a treat. With one of those 1.25" tall 3-1/2" drives, my Ampro boots up CP/M in a second or two. It's amazing! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Phil Clayton To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 7:44 AM Subject: Why is CP/M faster than DOS >After reading all the comments on CP/M computers a comment was made that CP/M >is a faster OS that DOS.. I have found this to be very true. >My Kaypro 1X boots up in 5 seconds, and loads MBASIC in about another 5 >seconds, also >executes the same BASIC code faster than on my XT. > >Now on my old Compaq XT, it takes about 30 seconds just for the hardware to >powerup, >then another 20 seconds to boot to a DOS prompt, then another 15 seconds to >boot BASIC. > >So can some of the experts here tell me why CP/M is so much faster ? > >Phil... > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 2 10:01:19 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: HP plotters Message-ID: <002e01bef554$03b67620$0400c0a8@winbook> That 7550 is quite a bit "more" plotter than the smaller 74xx ones. It's too bad the table is so small . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 8:29 AM Subject: HP plotters >Hi All, > > I got this from a friend of mine. You can see there are still lots of >good reasons to keep a real plotter around. So save that plotter! > > Joe >> >>A little while back a friend of mine (little bit of a collector, he >>has a Basis 108 and a DEC Pro 350, and some VAXen that he used to use) >>was starting to get into slide photography and going through his >>father's collection of slides (mostly having to do with the NYC subway >>system and like things in other cities). He decided he wanted to >>print on photo slide mounts; handwriting them doesn't work for him >>because he has crappy handwriting. >> >>So we spent some time at Fry's looking at inkjet printers, and decided >>the paper paths were too contorted -- no way to get a slide mount >>through there, let alone the sort of cardboard carrier we thought we'd >>need. >> >>We thought about it a while and decided that a plotter would be the >>way to go. Of course, who makes plotters in this day of cheap color >>inkjet printers (with expensive ink cartridges)? So I went to the >>next Computer Recycling Center sale and picked up a somewhat grungy >>7550A for $10 and passed it along to him. He bought some pens on >>eBay, worked out some HP-GL, hacked up a pen and an extra-fine >>Sharpie, and put together some bits of cardboard to make a carrier for >>a few slide mounts, and he was all set. >> >>So I guess they still have their uses. His only complaint is that the >>7550 takes up too much table space. I guess I'm keeping my eyes open for >>an 7470 or 7475 with RS-232 interface. >> > >> > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 2 10:07:56 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: HP plotters Message-ID: <004101bef554$f0bc8fe0$0400c0a8@winbook> I had one fellow describe to me how he rigged his pen in the 7475 so he could draw his PCB layouts directly on the copper. That certainly wouldn't work with my inkjet printer! I know at least one guy who plots resist directly on his copper using a CD printer. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 8:39 AM Subject: Re: HP plotters >> >7550 takes up too much table space. I guess I'm keeping my eyes open for >> >an 7470 or 7475 with RS-232 interface. > >I have a 7475/serial, they are nice to have/use. No, it's not for sale >as it is useful! > >Allison > > From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Sep 2 10:08:01 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Speaking of CP/M... (Re: Best CP/M machine?) Message-ID: <19990902.101751.193.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Jake: On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Jacob Ritorto writes: > PS. I'm still M$ free, BTW, but I sold out about three years ago and > now use commodity hardware w/FreeBSD in addition to my pdp11s running > 2BSD You've aroused my interest with this. You run *BSD in a PDP-11? WHich model PDP do you have that does this? I have a lead on an 11/73 I can probably get for next to nothing (with a SCSI HD controller!). I presume you're running Net/2 or some derivative thereof. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From marvin at rain.org Thu Sep 2 10:34:24 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: 1st West Coast Computer Faire References: Message-ID: <37CE9900.5F8E7521@rain.org> For the first time, I saw reference on an ebay auction to the First West Coast Computer Faire. The proceedings is on auction at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=156621934 I am just curious how many people here have programs and proceedings from that event in their collections. I have a collection of programs and proceedings starting with the first program and IIRC, most of the proceedings for the first seven or eight years. And no, they aren't for sale or auction (no duplicates.) It will be interesting to see what this will close at! From marvin at rain.org Thu Sep 2 11:00:03 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:08 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? References: <001701bef552$1f2822c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <37CE9F03.68464ECB@rain.org> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > >From what I remember, the Northstar was probably the most widely hated > "system" around in these parts. There was a local company which produced an > apparently quite nice accounting package (Champion???) which wouldn't run on > their most popular model, the "Horizon" because it had an 8K ROM which > reduced their TPA under CP/M to the point where this package wouldn't run > properly. I ran my business using Champion on my Northstar for about 8 years with no problems (except for the slowness.) From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Sep 2 11:11:22 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: 1st West Coast Computer Faire In-Reply-To: <37CE9900.5F8E7521@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Marvin wrote: > For the first time, I saw reference on an ebay auction to the First West > Coast > Computer Faire. The proceedings is on auction at: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=156621934 ...and the flood gates open! Now there are a few running. > I am just curious how many people here have programs and proceedings from > that event in their collections. I have a collection of programs > and proceedings starting with the first program and IIRC, most of the > proceedings for the first seven or eight years. Well... I was at WCCF 1 thru 8, and probably have much of the materials buried in the archives (somewhere). I've got images of the program from WCCF #1 and my badges from 6, 7, & 8 in the 'Historical Items' section of my web site. Right now it is just the front cover of the WCCF #1 program, but with all of the recent interest I should probably scan the whole thing and add it to the site. > And no, they aren't for sale or auction (no duplicates.) It will be > interesting to see what this will close at! ...or frightening! B^} Hmmm... Sounds like someone needs to start producing 'official' programs for the VCF! How knows what those could be worth in a few years! (Sellam, you listening? B^} ) -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Sep 2 11:53:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <001701bef552$1f2822c0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: > >From what I remember, the Northstar was probably the most widely hated > "system" around in these parts. There was a local company which produced an > apparently quite nice accounting package (Champion???) which wouldn't run on > their most popular model, the "Horizon" because it had an 8K ROM which > reduced their TPA under CP/M to the point where this package wouldn't run > properly. NS* system wasn't the problem it was the MPS-A floppy system, It looked like 20 of ram/rom at 0E800h through 0EFFFh, It was memory mapped. There was only 256 bytes of actual rom. This generally meant for CPM users that the upper 4k of ram was unused. The fix was simple, CCP and BDOS ending 256bytes belove the controller and tweek the jump table for 0F000h. Then you put the BIOS above the FDC in ram. Works well and you end up with a 56-58k system. > The CompuPro combinations fit in the same category, i.e. the ones who loved > 'em loved 'em, and the rest of us didn't. The owner of that company had the > practice of having his people design circuits whith whatever he'd bought for > cheap this week, and that meant that sometimes they were good, and sometimes > they weren't. His boards often suffered from compatibility problems, even > with other boards of his own manufacture. It was, to be sure, spotty. Stating that is nice but I have about 25-30 of those boards (all the interfacer models, RAM16/17/20/21/22/23, DISK1A, DISK3, system support, 8/16 cpu, CPU-Z, MPX-1, Mdrive, two crates) NONE support your view. This may not be true for older boards (I'll bet the early ones were poor). I know they were considered reliable as they were pulled from 10 s100 crates that were used here before PCs replaced them. They ran CHAMPION, DBASE, BTRIVE and a few other familiar names using Concurrent-dos on the 8/16 cards. > S-100 systems, in general, can't be viewed in the same way as, say, a > single-board machine, because there is too much potential variation in its > configuration to define it in a specific way. Some manufacturers sold board > sets, about which they were willing to make certain claims about > performance, etc, but most of them just wanted to ship their boards and let > the headaches fall where they may. They clearly werent PLUG and PLAY. Then again it was an industry wide issue. The only way out was a one vendor box or do you own system integration . > Computer stores, notably ComputerLand, quite popular in the late '70's-early > '80's, tended to sell board sets from Cromemco, Vector, and occasionally > NorthStar because the mfg would stand behind the sets they pushed. The > Cromemco board sets were often displayed in a desk-enclosure with integral > (vertically mounted) Persci (very fast, voice-coil-driven) floppy drives, > into which it was very easy to drop a paper clip or something. Businesses > tended to buy these because they were sold under a single aegis as opposed > to letting someone "integrate" a system for them. The theory was that there > was less risk that way. Certainly true to my experience on the east coast, the real problem was the inductry was so volitile that Fly-by-night computer was often common. and getting support for those older combines was at best iffy. From 1975 through 1980 most every vendor we knew as the "originators" of the industry either went under or changed names/product multiple times trying to adapt to the changes that were going on. From 1980 on it only got worse! However, this is not a CPM problem. Allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Sep 2 12:13:14 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? Message-ID: <19990902171314.12124.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> --- Phil Clayton wrote: > I would cast my vote for the Kaypro I have one in my office that runs with a > nice continous demo program that I wrote in BASIC... Care to share your demo? I've got a Kaypro 2 I picked up at the last Dayton Hamfest (and a spare Tandon TM-100-2 double-sided drive to perhaps upgrade with, should I care to plunk down the cash for a new boot ROM that supports double-sided disks). -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From at258 at osfn.org Thu Sep 2 12:16:40 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Why is CP/M faster than DOS In-Reply-To: <37CE80E4.FBA985B6@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Could it be perhaps because the Redmond Terror has nothing to do with it? Actually, I think it relates to hardware design. On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Phil Clayton wrote: > After reading all the comments on CP/M computers a comment was made that CP/M > is a faster OS that DOS.. I have found this to be very true. > My Kaypro 1X boots up in 5 seconds, and loads MBASIC in about another 5 > seconds, also > executes the same BASIC code faster than on my XT. > > Now on my old Compaq XT, it takes about 30 seconds just for the hardware to > powerup, > then another 20 seconds to boot to a DOS prompt, then another 15 seconds to > boot BASIC. > > So can some of the experts here tell me why CP/M is so much faster ? > > Phil... > > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Thu Sep 2 12:29:28 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Greetings... Message-ID: <802567E0.005FDAB4.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > My name is Bo Zimmerman. I've been collecting computers (and calculators, > and disk drives, and printers, etc, etc) made by Commodore Business Machines > for about three years, with my primary interest being programming and > tinkering (upgrading, networking, etc.) If anyone is amused by such things, > I maintain a web site of my collection at > http://www.zimmers.net/cbmpics/index.html. Welcome to the list! I grew up on the PET, and there are several other CBM people on the list. Larry Anderson is our resident expert, I think. > My question concerns insurance, and is the reason I was referred to this > fine gathering. Does anyone here carry insurance against fire (or theft?!) > for their collections? IIRC my home contents insurance doesn't cover my collection. I intend to change that... man~ana... When I brought a Tek 4052 to the USA for the VCF last year, I insured it for 2000 pounds (about $3000 US), which cost me 100 pounds just for the 2 weeks I was out of the UK. With a policy excess of 100 pounds, I didn't bother claiming for the minor chassis bends and keyboard damamge when the airline dropped it. It still worked, after all! I don't know whether my insurance experience is typical. Anyone else? Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From jritorto at nut.net Thu Sep 2 12:42:35 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: HP plotters In-Reply-To: <004101bef554$f0bc8fe0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: OK, since we're on the subject of plotters, I guess I'll make mention of my Calcomp 1055 plotter and 925 tape spooler combo. They're in near-perfect condition and really, really huge (about 4' high, 3' deep and 5' wide) each and seem to interface via rs232. I've never powered them up, but the guy who gave them to me said they worked fine last time. Anyone know what to do with these as faar as programming goes? Links? jake On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I had one fellow describe to me how he rigged his pen in the 7475 so he > could draw his PCB layouts directly on the copper. That certainly wouldn't > work with my inkjet printer! > > I know at least one guy who plots resist directly on his copper using a CD > printer. > > Dick > -----Original Message----- > From: allisonp@world.std.com > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 8:39 AM > Subject: Re: HP plotters > > > >> >7550 takes up too much table space. I guess I'm keeping my eyes open > for > >> >an 7470 or 7475 with RS-232 interface. > > > >I have a 7475/serial, they are nice to have/use. No, it's not for sale > >as it is useful! > > > >Allison > > > > > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 2 12:43:51 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: HP plotters In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990902095235.232f97f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Thu, 02 Sep 1999 09:52:35) References: <3.0.1.16.19990902095235.232f97f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <19990902174351.18776.qmail@brouhaha.com> Joe wrote: > I got this from a friend of mine. You can see there are still lots of > good reasons to keep a real plotter around. So save that plotter! > >> So I guess they still have their uses. His only complaint is that the >> 7550 takes up too much table space. I guess I'm keeping my eyes open for >> an 7470 or 7475 with RS-232 interface. The 7550 may be big, but it is *much* better engineered and built than the 7470 and 7475. I doubt that the guy would actually be happy with those. From jritorto at nut.net Thu Sep 2 12:58:56 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Speaking of CP/M... (Re: Best CP/M machine?) In-Reply-To: <199909021425.JAA12722@sunny.maxserv.com> Message-ID: I assume you have the cp/m boot stuff for your 128, right? If so, you may be able to purchase the compiler it from Mix, but I don't know. If you can't find them and can't find a way to acquire it legitimately, let me know and we'll work on it off-list. jake On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Bo Zimmerman wrote: > Awsome. How would one go about getting a copy of that compiler today, do ya > think? I have Commodore 128 myself and could use a nice C compiler. > > - Bo From jritorto at nut.net Thu Sep 2 13:11:47 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Speaking of CP/M... (Re: Best CP/M machine?) In-Reply-To: <19990902.101751.193.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: Bro, BSD grew up on '11s (VAX11 included, of course ;-)... 2.9 BSD boots on all my pdps and I have 2.11 plunking away on my 11/73 all the time. It has all the tcp/ip stuff (telnet, ftp, etc) and works like a charm for me. Get that 11/73 and SCSI controller, definitely. If you decide not to use it, I'd definitely be interested in acquiring the SCSI controller. They're pretty expensive still and I can't afford one from a vendor. You can buy a SCO 'ancient unix' hobbyist license for $100 and then download the complete systems (I think they have everything for pdp/VAX from V5 on). See http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au and look for the PUPS section. I have spoken with people who have a four-CD set of old unicies, so I guess that's available somewhere, too. Can get info on it if you wish. Good luck, and please keep me posted on that SCSI board if you're not going to use it! jake On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > > You've aroused my interest with this. You run *BSD in a PDP-11? WHich > model PDP do you have that does this? I have a lead on an 11/73 I can > probably get for next to nothing (with a SCSI HD controller!). > > I presume you're running Net/2 or some derivative thereof. > > Jeff From jritorto at nut.net Thu Sep 2 13:21:39 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Speaking of 11/73s In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Allison, I remember you mentioning the PMI modification that makes the 11/73 into an 11/83 on INFO-pdp11 a few years ago. Could you please give step-by-step instructions on doing that here? Does 2.11BSD have the smarts to use this, or is it a wholly-hardware-incarnated thing? I notice my '73 lagging a bit on memory-intensive stuff. tia jake From vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com Thu Sep 2 13:23:41 1999 From: vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: QBus question In-Reply-To: <13475920226.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: In a previous messages (long since retired to /dev/null), someone mentioned the QBus spec was in the PDP 11 bus handbook. The copies I have (1979) have specs for the Unibus and the LSI-11 bus. Is LSI-11 and QBus the same? or Similiar? If they are different, what is the spec name/DEC part number I should look for. Also, I am looking for a copy of the "Vax 11/750 gate array handbook". If anyone has a copy they would sell or loan me I would appreciate it. (Or if you see a copy somewhere I will gratefully reimburse you purchase price + shipping + gratuity). Thanks, clint From owad at applefritter.com Thu Sep 2 15:43:02 1999 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? Message-ID: <199909021943.MAA07112@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> I recall reading an article a while back about the possibility of building computers based on a number system other than two (octal, IIRC). If memory serves me right, it was found possible to do, but not practical and less efficient than binary. I now have need for some basic information on the possibility of non-binary computers, but am unable to find anything. Can anybody point me in the direction of some info? Thanks. Tom Owad ---------------------------Applefritter--------------------------- Apple prototypes, Apple II & early Mac clones, and the Compubrick. ------------------------------------ From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Sep 2 15:22:19 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: 2BSD on PDP-11 (was Re: Speaking of CP/M... (Re: Best CP/M machine?)) Message-ID: <19990902202219.15029.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > Jake: > > On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Jacob Ritorto > writes: > > > PS. I'm still M$ free, BTW, but I sold out about three years ago and > > now use commodity hardware w/FreeBSD in addition to my pdp11s running > > 2BSD > > You've aroused my interest with this. You run *BSD in a PDP-11? WHich > model PDP do you have that does this? Five years ago I was running 2.9BSD on an *emulated* PDP-11 on my SPARC1. I would refer you to the BSD web pages for a hardware compatibility list, but for smaller PDP's (11/24, 11/34, etc.), they can run 2.9BSD. Things like MSCP (SCSI, SDI, etc.) weren't added until later versions of 2BSD, but to run _them_, you need an 11/44 or 11/73 or the like. > I have a lead on an 11/73 I can probably get for next to nothing (with a SCSI > HD controller!). Go join PUPS (The PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society). You can get a $100 license for 2BSD and then go get 2.11BSD for your 11/73. -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From walgen at do.isst.fhg.de Thu Sep 2 15:29:28 1999 From: walgen at do.isst.fhg.de (Stefan Walgenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Major HCM update ... Message-ID: <25B2C31EDD35D311A08500805F199059022B02@postman.do.isst.fhg.de> Hi! just wanted to let you know that there was a major update of the HomeComputer-Museum web-pages. During the last months I took a lot of photos (computers and especially boxes) and finally have quite a few pictures of the HCM machines on the web. You may want to have a look and maybe you even consider putting a LINK to the HCM at your own web page! BTW: I am always interested in trading some computers! Stefan Walgenbach, http://www.HomeComputer.de mailto:Stefan@HomeComputer.de From jlwest at tseinc.com Thu Sep 2 15:42:45 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? Message-ID: <00f101bef583$b679a960$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> I never heard of octal based systems, but I know a lot of work was done on trinary computers (3 rather than binary 2 states - on, off, and inbetween). Everything I heard said they were too expensive, etc.... Try searching the web under "trinary computer"? Jay West From bo at zimmers.net Thu Sep 2 15:40:20 1999 From: bo at zimmers.net (Bo Zimmerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Major HCM update ... In-Reply-To: <25B2C31EDD35D311A08500805F199059022B02@postman.do.isst.fhg.de> Message-ID: <199909022040.PAA19453@sunny.maxserv.com> Well sir, you definitely need some Commodore machines. There are none! What's up with that? I've been asking this of collectors everywhere, but do you have insurance on your collection? > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Stefan Walgenbach > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 3:29 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Major HCM update ... > > > Hi! > > just wanted to let you know that there was a major > update of the HomeComputer-Museum web-pages. > > During the last months I took a lot of photos > (computers and especially boxes) and finally > have quite a few pictures of the HCM machines > on the web. > > You may want to have a look and maybe you even > consider putting a LINK to the HCM at your own web page! > > BTW: I am always interested in trading some computers! > > Stefan Walgenbach, > http://www.HomeComputer.de > mailto:Stefan@HomeComputer.de > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Sep 2 15:48:42 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: 2BSD on PDP-11 (was Re: Speaking of CP/M... (Re: Best CP/M machine?)) In-Reply-To: <19990902202219.15029.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > You've aroused my interest with this. You run *BSD in a PDP-11? WHich > > model PDP do you have that does this? > > Five years ago I was running 2.9BSD on an *emulated* PDP-11 on my SPARC1. I > would refer you to the BSD web pages for a hardware compatibility list, but > for smaller PDP's (11/24, 11/34, etc.), they can run 2.9BSD. Things like > MSCP (SCSI, SDI, etc.) weren't added until later versions of 2BSD, but to > run _them_, you need an 11/44 or 11/73 or the like. I'm actually running V7 on a 11/73 and RL02. 2.9 would run well on that as RL02 is a known device. > > > I have a lead on an 11/73 I can probably get for next to nothing (with a SCSI > > HD controller!). > > Go join PUPS (The PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society). You can get a $100 > license for 2BSD and then go get 2.11BSD for your 11/73. Best bet! With license you get access to source and any device is possible. Allison From donm at cts.com Thu Sep 2 16:13:29 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <001f01bef4ff$bad1c4e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > There's no doubt that there were several really good CP/M machines out there > but I suppose when you say CP/M "machine" you're not referring to the boxes > built to order by the dealers. These were often S-100 boxes with Cromemco > boards, running 5-6 MHz using ultra-fast PERSCI 8" floppies and PRIAM or > similarly big and expensive hard disks. Soldier of Fortune magazine had two > boxes built with Systems Group boards, in CCS mainframes and using KONAN > SMC-100 adapters to their CDC Lark SMD drives. > > Unquestionably, if you're looking for a computer "brand" it would have to be > either a Kaypro or, of course, the Apple-II, with a Z-80 card, 16K memory > add-on, SVA 8" drive controller, and the VIDEX or similar 24x80 display > board. You could actually use that for useful work. At the age I'd reached > by 1980, (35) I was still able to read the Kaypro display, however, but the > full-sized one normally used with the Apple][ was easier to use. In any > case, I read somewhere that there were as many Apple ][ machines running > CP/M as any other single system. That would be very interested if documented. However, I find it very hard to believe! - don > I never learned to like them, though . . . > > Dick > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 10:35 PM > Subject: Re: Best CP/M machine? > > > >No Doubt about it, you need a Kaypro. > > > >They came with just about all the software you would need to run a small > >office, Wordstar, DataStar, DB2, Basic and the list went on. > > > >They were very reliable. I used mine right up until 1991. The Kaypro 2X I > >had bought in 1984 ran WordStar faster than the IBM Xt's. > > > >As they were the portables of the day, it will take up less space than some > >of the other CP/M machines of the time period. > > > >My two cents. > > > >Jim > > > > > >"If the automobile had followed the same development cycle as the computer, > >a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and > >explode once a year, killing everyone inside." > >( Robert X. Cringely, "InfoWorld" ) > > > > > > > > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 2 14:39:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Monitor tilt - return it? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990901212407.2bc72474@earthlink.net> from "Dave Dameron" at Sep 1, 99 09:24:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2654 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990902/7a416079/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 2 15:50:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <510c3df1.24ff5039@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Sep 1, 99 11:59:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 788 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990902/496bec32/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 2 16:16:22 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Speaking of 11/73s References: Message-ID: <9909021720150K.25952@vault.neurotica.com> On Thu, 02 Sep 1999, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > I remember you mentioning the PMI modification that makes the >11/73 into an 11/83 on INFO-pdp11 a few years ago. Could you please give >step-by-step instructions on doing that here? Does 2.11BSD have the >smarts to use this, or is it a wholly-hardware-incarnated thing? I notice >my '73 lagging a bit on memory-intensive stuff. I'm curious about that too. Does anyone know if the 11/53 cpu board supports PMI as well? -Dave McGuire From bo at zimmers.net Thu Sep 2 16:27:32 1999 From: bo at zimmers.net (Bo Zimmerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199909022127.QAA20223@sunny.maxserv.com> The best CP/M machine is the Commodore 128D, fortified with CMD hardware. - Bo > > Hello all: > > > > I hope this is "classic" enough . . . > > > > Though I've been involved with and have earned my keep with desktop > > microcomputers for a period covering almost twenty years, I was > in another > > field during the time when CP/M was popular. > > > > I'd like to add a CP/M based machine to my collection but as > with all of my > > old computers I want to have a system I can use for at least one > > business-related application. This helps make my collection > tax-deductable > > as a business expense ;>) BTW, I don't mind writing my own code. > > > > What was the best CP/M based machine for business? Are > applications and > > utilities still obtainable? What about development tools and > documentation? > > > > Your opinions, please. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Glen Goodwin > > 0/0 > > > From donm at cts.com Thu Sep 2 16:46:25 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > My favourite was the old Xerox 820-II, with the high keyboard and 8inch > > drives. It runs Dbase and WordStar with great dignity. I know there are > > Another good machine. > ________O/_______ O\ > Also some of XT class PCs with NEC V20 were CPM80 candidate machines as > the V20 has 8080 emulation on chip. As do the V30 and V40. - don From elvey at hal.com Thu Sep 2 16:45:43 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? In-Reply-To: <00f101bef583$b679a960$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <199909022145.OAA07432@civic.hal.com> "Jay West" wrote: > I never heard of octal based systems, but I know a lot of work was done on > trinary computers (3 rather than binary 2 states - on, off, and inbetween). > Everything I heard said they were too expensive, etc.... Try searching the > web under "trinary computer"? > > Jay West > Hi While not to practical for the real guts of a computer, many parts of current computers use multi level coding. Many flash memories use 3 and 4 levels for storage cells. LCD's are almost all multi level multiplexed. From transit at primenet.com Thu Sep 2 16:54:19 1999 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > > My favourite was the old Xerox 820-II, with the high keyboard and 8inch > > > drives. It runs Dbase and WordStar with great dignity. I know there are > > > > Another good machine. Does anyone here rember the GNAT's (System 9 and System 10)? We had them in high school (1981-1983) From donm at cts.com Thu Sep 2 16:59:00 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: HP 120 was Re: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990902105656.3d47258a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Joe wrote: > Since we're on the subject of CPM machines I'll mention that I just > picked up a HP 120 CPM machine. It looks a lot like a HP 9816. Cute little > bugger. And it's a lot easier to move around than the HP 125 that I was > using. I have the OS for it and HP's menu program (PAM) and a word > processor. Does anyone have any other software for the HP 120 or 125? I'm > not sure if it will run regular CPM software or not but probably not > knowing how HP did things. I can read both 8, 3.5 and 5.25" disks on them > but they have to be in HP's oddball LIF format. Joe, I have the following for the HP 100 machines. E-mail me off list if interested. - don HEWLETT-PACKARD Name Format Description 100-SYS DSDD HP 100 series (120/125) CP/M 2.2 system disk 100-UTIL DSDD HP 100 series utilities 100-TUT DSDD HP 100 series Computer Tutor 100-WS DSDD HP 100 series Wordstar 3.0 100-WORD DSDD HP 100 series The Word+ 100-COND DSDD HP 100 series Condor 20 dbms 100-VISI DSDD HP 100 series Visicalc 100-GRPH DSDD HP 100 series Graphics 100-DLNK DSDD HP 100 series to host comm programs From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Thu Sep 2 17:10:37 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? In-Reply-To: <199909021943.MAA07112@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from Tom Owad at "Sep 2, 1999 03:43:02 pm" Message-ID: <19990902221048Z13255-24908+106@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > I recall reading an article a while back about the possibility of > building computers based on a number system other than two (octal, IIRC). > If memory serves me right, it was found possible to do, but not > practical and less efficient than binary. > > I now have need for some basic information on the possibility of > non-binary computers, but am unable to find anything. Can anybody point > me in the direction of some info? > A number of early small computers were non-binary. One that comes to mind is the IBM 1620 which was a decimal variable word lenght machine. The 1620 was in production about 40 years ago and was mainly marketed as a business machine. One of the interesting features of this machine was that it did all its arthmetic by table lookup. The tables were stored in memory, so you could change how the operations worked! A number of 1620s were used by universities into the late 1960s. Since they were variable word length, they were very nice for doing precise computations. Since early computers were based on analogue electronics it was much easier to do non-binary than it is now. Many early memory devices (except core) were really analogue devices with thresholds used to distinguish 0 and 1. You just needed to add a few more thresholds to get a larger range. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From donm at cts.com Thu Sep 2 17:11:19 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <19990902171314.12124.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > --- Phil Clayton wrote: > > > I would cast my vote for the Kaypro I have one in my office that runs with a > > nice continous demo program that I wrote in BASIC... > > Care to share your demo? I've got a Kaypro 2 I picked up at the last Dayton > Hamfest (and a spare Tandon TM-100-2 double-sided drive to perhaps upgrade > with, should I care to plunk down the cash for a new boot ROM that supports > double-sided disks). > > -ethan If memory serves, if you need to change the boot ROM to use DSDD, you need also to make some mods to the motherboard. If, on the other hand, your machine has a ROM of 81-232 or higher you then need only install the drives and get a DSDD system disk appropriate to the ROM. - don From danburrows at mindspring.com Thu Sep 2 17:16:00 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Speaking of 11/73s Message-ID: <024d01bef590$befd0020$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> >smarts to use this, or is it a wholly-hardware-incarnated thing? I notice >my '73 lagging a bit on memory-intensive stuff. > I'm curious about that too. Does anyone know if the 11/53 cpu board supports >PMI as well? > > -Dave McGuire Sorry no such luck an the 11/53 that I am aware of. To install PMI with an 83 the memory goes first on the bus then the CPU. For Qbus systems you need the MSV11-JD or JE. You can't use the MSV11-JB or JC. They can only be used on 11/84 machines. Dan From ss at allegro.com Thu Sep 2 17:18:58 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? In-Reply-To: <19990902221048Z13255-24908+106@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> References: <199909021943.MAA07112@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <199909022218.PAA32275@bart.allegro.com> Re: > A number of early small computers were non-binary. One that comes > to mind is the IBM 1620 which was a decimal variable word lenght > machine. The 1620 was in production about 40 years ago and was > mainly marketed as a business machine. One of the interesting > features of this machine was that it did all its arthmetic by > table lookup. Was that the CADET? (Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try) > The tables were stored in memory, so you could change how the operations worked! A colleague of mine, Fred White, tells stories about changing that table for some scientific routines, and then restoring it at subroutine exit. sieler@allegro.com From morrison at t-iii.com Thu Sep 2 17:34:18 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601B7A2D6@hobbit.t-iii.com> My favorite was the IBM (model forgotten) which had a bolt on division unit Neil Morrison > -----Original Message----- > From: ss@allegro.com [SMTP:ss@allegro.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 3:19 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: non-binary computers? > > Re: > > A number of early small computers were non-binary. One that comes [Neil Morrison] .. > table lookup. > Was that the CADET? (Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try) > > > The tables were stored in memory, so you could change how the operations > worked! > > A colleague of mine, Fred White, tells stories about changing that table > for > some scientific routines, and then restoring it at subroutine exit. > > sieler@allegro.com From jhfine at idirect.com Thu Sep 2 17:35:09 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Speaking of 11/73s References: Message-ID: <37CEFB9D.700B294C@idirect.com> >Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Allison, > I remember you mentioning the PMI modification that makes the > 11/73 into an 11/83 on INFO-pdp11 a few years ago. Could you please give > step-by-step instructions on doing that here? Does 2.11BSD have the > smarts to use this, or is it a wholly-hardware-incarnated thing? I notice > my '73 lagging a bit on memory-intensive stuff. Jerome Fine replies: FIRST, you require a Qbus backplane with as many slots as the memory and CPU will occupy. In general, I have heard that you should NOT mix boards with different sizes of PMI memory - Since I have two MSV11-JE boards (2 MByte PMI memory - the maximum DEC made was a 2 MByte memory board - I am told that Chrislen made a 4 MByte board - anyone have it at a reasonable price, especially if you are not using it anymore), that is not a problem. The DEC MSV11-JD was a 1 MByte memory board. These two boards were to be used ONLY for the Qbus. On an 11/84 system, DEC managed to require the use of either the MSV11-JB (1 MByte) or the MSV11-JC (2 Mbyte). I have been told to NEVER mix these boards between an 11/83 and an 11/84 system. Don't know why. Now, assuming you have 2 (or 1) MSV11-JE memory, you MUST place it in an ABCD slot above the CPU board which must be the KDJ11-BA,B,C (M8190-"blank",YB) which is the quad version of the 11/73. PMI will not work with the KDJ11-AA,B,C which is the dual version of the 11/73 (M8192) or at least if it does (I have never bothered to try), it will operate as ordinary Qbus memory regardless of where it is placed in the backplane. I also them place the 11/73 CPU board as the very next board right after the PMI memory and the CPU board MUST also occupy an ABCD slot. If you are using a BA23 with 3 ABCD slots (all BA23s that I know of have exactly 3 ABCD slots), the the first 2 slots MUST be the PMI memory and the 3rd slot MUST be the quad 11/73 CPU. If you have only one PMI memory board, make it the first slot and the CPU the 2nd slot. I presume (I have never had 3 * 1 MByte boards of PMI memory) that on a BA123 with 4 ABCD slots, it is possible to have 3 PMI memory boards at the top and the CPU in the 4th slot. If you place the PMI memory under the CPU, it still works as normal Qbus memory. Someone (either Allison or Megan Gentry) once explained how PMI memory works, but I forget. I have never tried to use one board above and one board below - has anyone ever done so? Based on a VERY limited set of benchmarks, PMI memory seems to speed up the system (CPU wise) by about 20%. Moving to a KDJ11-EF (11/83) seems to add another 13% for a total of about 33% between an 11/73 at 15 MHz without PMI memory and an 11/83 with PMI memory. So if you want to increase the speed, the major boast comes from PMI memory and works with all quad 11/73 that I have tested PMI memory with; just place it on top with memory and CPU underneath, all in ABCD slots. I have been told that PMI memory will not function as PMI memory with an 11/53. The increase in speed is purely a hardware function and does not depend on the OS or anything else, although I have seen RT-11 able to "know" that PMI memory is or is not present - have not ever bothered to find out how. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From donm at cts.com Thu Sep 2 17:36:49 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > > > On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > > > > My favourite was the old Xerox 820-II, with the high keyboard and 8inch > > > > drives. It runs Dbase and WordStar with great dignity. I know there are > > > > > > Another good machine. > > Does anyone here rember the GNAT's (System 9 and System 10)? We had them > in high school (1981-1983) Yep! I have one. System 10, IIRC. - don From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Sep 2 17:46:55 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? Message-ID: <19990902224655.27450.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Don Maslin wrote: > On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > If memory serves, if you need to change the boot ROM to use DSDD, you need > also to make some mods to the motherboard. If, on the other hand, your > machine has a ROM of 81-232 or higher you then need only install the > drives and get a DSDD system disk appropriate to the ROM. That is exactly the version of ROM I have. -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Thu Sep 2 17:51:58 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? In-Reply-To: <199909022218.PAA32275@bart.allegro.com> from "ss@allegro.com" at "Sep 2, 1999 03:18:58 pm" Message-ID: <19990902225206Z13255-24908+118@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > Re: > > A number of early small computers were non-binary. One that comes > > to mind is the IBM 1620 which was a decimal variable word lenght > > machine. The 1620 was in production about 40 years ago and was > > mainly marketed as a business machine. One of the interesting > > features of this machine was that it did all its arthmetic by > > table lookup. > > Was that the CADET? (Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try) > I believe it was also known by that name. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From jpl15 at netcom.com Thu Sep 2 17:58:25 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? In-Reply-To: <19990902225206Z13255-24908+118@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: Am I wrong in thinking that the ENIAC was a decimal machine? and that the EDVAC broke ground by having a base-2 architecture? And was not the ATT/Bell System Relay Comuter bi-quinary? I'm at work and away from my books, and of course my head is full of WOFM chips these days. Cheers John PS WOFM = Write Once Forget Many From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Sep 2 19:08:50 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: HP plotters In-Reply-To: <004101bef554$f0bc8fe0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990902190850.27974a8a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:07 AM 9/2/99 -0600, Dick wrote: >I had one fellow describe to me how he rigged his pen in the 7475 so he >could draw his PCB layouts directly on the copper. That certainly wouldn't >work with my inkjet printer! I've heard that there are knifes available that can be used in them to cut strip lines on copper PCB and knifes for cutting out vinyl and other materials but I don't know what they cost or where you can get them. Does anyone know any more about them? Joe From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Sep 2 18:12:27 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Hello, Tony Duell (was Re: Best CP/M machine?) Message-ID: <1b307c29.25005e5b@aol.com> Tony: You recently posted a message which only contained the text from my original inquiry -- an editing error, perhaps? If so how about resending your reply? Glen 0/0 From djenner at halcyon.com Thu Sep 2 19:24:22 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? References: <19990902221048Z13255-24908+106@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <37CF1536.95CBCFDD@halcyon.com> The IBM 360 series was a "hexadecimal" machine. The result was that you got one or more fewer decimal digits of precision for floating point numbers as opposed to a binary machine. The CDC series of 3xxx/6xxx was a favorite of scientifically oriented users due to this fact, and many computer centers were CDC instead of IBM at the time. (There was a difference in word length, too, but many users didn't realize that you could get better precision on a PDP-11 than on a 360 in single precision.) The ultimate, of course, is the UNARY computer. If you look in the "Feynman Lectures on Computation", Richard Feynman, 1996, you'll see that he has you start designing a unary computer. Maybe not so easy when all you have to work with is "1"! (It has to have a variable word length, of course). Dave Mark Green wrote: > > > I recall reading an article a while back about the possibility of > > building computers based on a number system other than two (octal, IIRC). > > If memory serves me right, it was found possible to do, but not > > practical and less efficient than binary. > > > > I now have need for some basic information on the possibility of > > non-binary computers, but am unable to find anything. Can anybody point > > me in the direction of some info? > > > > A number of early small computers were non-binary. One that comes > to mind is the IBM 1620 which was a decimal variable word lenght > machine. The 1620 was in production about 40 years ago and was > mainly marketed as a business machine. One of the interesting > features of this machine was that it did all its arthmetic by > table lookup. The tables were stored in memory, so you could change > how the operations worked! A number of 1620s were used by universities > into the late 1960s. Since they were variable word length, they > were very nice for doing precise computations. > > Since early computers were based on analogue electronics it was > much easier to do non-binary than it is now. Many early memory > devices (except core) were really analogue devices with thresholds > used to distinguish 0 and 1. You just needed to add a few more > thresholds to get a larger range. > > -- > Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca > Professor (780) 492-4584 > Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) > Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) > University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 2 19:14:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? -- sorry In-Reply-To: <1b307c29.25005e5b@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Sep 2, 99 07:12:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1396 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990903/2bd0f950/attachment.ksh From mbg at world.std.com Thu Sep 2 19:23:39 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Speaking of 11/73s Message-ID: <199909030023.UAA14039@world.std.com> > I remember you mentioning the PMI modification that makes the >11/73 into an 11/83 on INFO-pdp11 a few years ago. Could you please give >step-by-step instructions on doing that here? Does 2.11BSD have the >smarts to use this, or is it a wholly-hardware-incarnated thing? I >notice my '73 lagging a bit on memory-intensive stuff. All it takes is a KDJ11-B, the proper memory, and the proper ordering of the CPU and memory in the backplane. I've forgotten the exact designation for the memory, I think it is MSV11-J or MSV11-Q.. (don't quote me... I have to check) The memory boards are placed in the bus before the CPU... if you have one memory board, it goes in slot 1 and the CPU in slot 2. If you have two memory boards, they go in slots 1 and 2 and the CPU goes in slot 3. Use of PMI is entirely hardware-related, with no specific software support required to enable it. I have three machines so configured. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From morrison at t-iii.com Thu Sep 2 19:38:21 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? -- sorry Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601B7A44C@hobbit.t-iii.com> How about the Dimension 68K? CP/M _and_ Apple, TRS-80 and MS-Dos all in one machine with a separate floppy drive for each. Neil Morrison > -----Original Message----- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [SMTP:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 5:15 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Best CP/M machine? -- sorry > > > You recently posted a message which only contained the text from my > original > > inquiry -- an editing error, perhaps? If so how about resending your > reply? > > Ooops!!! > > Here you are > > ------------------------------------------- > > > What was the best CP/M based machine for business? Are applications and > > > utilities still obtainable? What about development tools and > documentation? > > > > Your opinions, please. > > I am going to leave out all the S100 machines. Not because I don't like > them - I do. But an S100 machine is really defined by what cards you put > in it, rather than the box. And thus there are far too many choices to > reasonably commment on. > > OK, so restricting the list to essentially pre-configured machines, and > remembering that I'm a hardware hacker, the ones I particularly like are : > > > The Epson QX10. It's got up to 256K of bank-switched RAM. It's got an NEC > 7220 graphics chip and a bitmapped display (on which it supports multiple > text fonts). It's got the wonderful Epson voice-coil floppy drives. > > The DEC Rainbow. A twin-processor machine, Z80 and 8088. You can run > CP/M-80 programs on the Z80, with 62K (IIRC) of memory. There's an > optional bitmapped colour card with (yet again) an 7220. > > There were 'business' progams (spreadsheets, word processors, etc) for > both of those. Development tools (at least an assembler) should be > available somewhere. > > -tony > From schoedel at kw.igs.net Thu Sep 2 19:40:16 1999 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Speaking of CP/M... (Re: Best CP/M machine?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1999/09/02 at 2:11pm -0400, you wrote: >[...] I have spoken with people who have a four-CD set of old unicies, >so I guess that's available somewhere, too. Can get info on it if you wish. That would probably be Kirk McKusick's set with 1bsd through 4.4. You need a UNIX source license. http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/index.html Coincidentally I got an 11/73 yesterday: saw it in a dumpster, bought it (yes, really), and dragged it out. No disk, and damaged case, but with luck the electronics will turn out OK. Also got a Kontron PLA286 logic analyzer (not from the dumpster); this even counts as on-topic here in its own right (though I got it to *use*), since it's actually a 12-year-old luggable MS-DOS PC with capture cards and control panel. Unfortunately it generated sound and smoke when I powered it up; symptoms suggest the 12V supply died violently. Anyone familiar with this machine? I have manuals but, not surprisingly, there are no schematics. I've no time to further examine either of these now, unfortunately. -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From mbg at world.std.com Thu Sep 2 20:00:32 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Speaking of 11/73s References: Message-ID: <199909030100.VAA05206@world.std.com> > I'm curious about that too. Does anyone know if the 11/53 cpu board >supports PMI as well? No Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Sep 2 20:07:40 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: Speaking of 11/73s References: Message-ID: <199909030107.VAA09346@world.std.com> >If you place the PMI memory under the CPU, it still works as normal Qbus >memory. Someone (either Allison or Megan Gentry) once explained how PMI >memory works, but I forget. I have never tried to use one board above >and one board below - has anyone ever done so? It uses the Qbus *and* the CD interconnect... when an address is placed on the bus which falls in the memory space, the board responds with the addressed word over the Qbus, and the adjacent word (longword aligned) over the CD interconnect and it goes into the cache. So for straight-line code, you can get almost 50% cache hit rate. >The increase in speed is purely a hardware function and does not depend >on the OS or anything else, although I have seen RT-11 able to "know" >that PMI memory is or is not present - have not ever bothered to find >out how. Having written the code in RESORC which reports it, I can tell you... The code first flushes the cache, then executes a bunch of NOPs. It then checks the cache hit-miss register. If it is non-zero, then there were cache hits, and thus there is PMI present (of course, it previously had to determine that the machine was a KDJ-based machine). Interestingly, the DCJ11 microcode is optimized for cache usage, and if on a PRO380 one disables the cache, the performance drops through the floor -- to about 11/23 performance... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From rexstout at uswest.net Thu Sep 2 21:13:32 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! Message-ID: Been a little while since I got a "new" computer. One of the neighbors was getting rid of some stuff from their basement, which included two computers. Luckily they now I'm a computer freak and told me I could have whatever I wanted. So, now I have an Amiga 500 with p/s, A520 video adaptor and what looks like a printer cable. No disks :-(, but it did have the original box(wow! a 7MHz 68000 and 512K RAM!!!). Also got a C64 with 1541 drive, two joysticks and probably 50-70 disks(haven't gotten around to counting. But hey, Pac-Man is in there!). The C64 seems to be working just fine(not sure about the drive yet), but the Amiga isn't. When I finally figured out how the A520 worked, all I could get on my Apple composite monitor was a green screen with a blank area at the top(looked kinfa like the video is off a bit inside the monitor, which is partially true but it's not THAT bad... just some hidden text on the edge usually) which blinks maybe every 10-15 seconds or so. No sounds, no text, not really any video at all. The power light is kinda flashing, maybe once every second or two(haven't timed it yet). Any ideas on what's wrong? I'll hold off on the how do I use it questions until after I finish raiding the local library of the computer books, but feel free to send me any tips and tricks for these systems... -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Sep 2 20:27:19 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! Message-ID: In a message dated 9/2/99 9:11:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rexstout@uswest.net writes: > So, now I have an Amiga 500 with p/s, A520 video adaptor > and what looks like a printer cable. No disks :-(, but it did have the > original box(wow! a 7MHz 68000 and 512K RAM!!!). Also got a C64 with 1541 > drive, two joysticks and probably 50-70 disks(haven't gotten around to > counting. But hey, Pac-Man is in there!). The C64 seems to be working just > fine(not sure about the drive yet), but the Amiga isn't. When I finally > figured out how the A520 worked, all I could get on my Apple composite > monitor was a green screen with a blank area at the top(looked kinfa like > the video is off a bit inside the monitor, which is partially true but it's > not THAT bad... just some hidden text on the edge usually) which blinks > maybe every 10-15 seconds or so. No sounds, no text, not really any video > at all. The power light is kinda flashing, maybe once every second or > two(haven't timed it yet). Any ideas on what's wrong? I'll hold off on the > how do I use it questions until after I finish raiding the local library of > the computer books, but feel free to send me any tips and tricks for these > systems... > hmmm, if you have the A520 adaptor plugged in, you should be using the RF out plug, or least that's what i used on mine. the amiga wont beep, but the disk drive shoud be polling for a system disk; you should hear it. the screen should show a hand holding a disk that says WORKBENCH. power light certainly shouldnt flash! check to see if there's a memory wedge installed undneath the computer. It's under the trap door. try taking it out for testing. From rexstout at uswest.net Thu Sep 2 21:45:29 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:09 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >hmmm, if you have the A520 adaptor plugged in, you should be using >the RF out plug, or least that's what i used on mine. That works OK for a TV, but composite monitors don't like RF too much. I have the C64 hooked up to the TV right now and I don't want to redo everything right now. >the disk drive shoud be polling for a system disk Nope, nothing. >the screen should show a hand holding a disk that says WORKBENCH. Don't you need the disk for that? Or is it in ROM? >check to see if there's a memory wedge installed undneath the computer. There was. Reading the package carefully, it says Amiga 500 Deluxe. 512K memory expansion pre-installed! Took it out and it still flashes the power light. Thought there was no video for a second, but the A520 was just a little loose. The power light flashes about once a second, and the screen flashes every 10 seconds. Definitley something wrong. -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From cureau at centuryinter.net Thu Sep 2 22:00:53 1999 From: cureau at centuryinter.net (Chris Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! References: Message-ID: <37CF39E5.60717802@centuryinter.net> > >check to see if there's a memory wedge installed undneath the computer. > There was. Reading the package carefully, it says Amiga 500 Deluxe. 512K > memory expansion pre-installed! Took it out and it still flashes the power > light. Thought there was no video for a second, but the A520 was just a > little loose. The power light flashes about once a second, and the screen > flashes every 10 seconds. Definitley something wrong. It's been a while...but if I remember right, that sounds like the ROM that's bad...I'll have to pull out some documentation and check... From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Sep 2 22:33:42 1999 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199909030332.WAA22856@garcon.laidbak.com> From: John Rollins To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: new computers... Finally! <> > >the screen should show a hand holding a disk that says WORKBENCH. > Don't you need the disk for that? Or is it in ROM? > The Kickstart code on an A500 is in rom. It should boot to the point where the bitmap of the hand holding the disk comes up without any user intervention. It's the Kickstart rom that's the OS loader -- you'll need the Workbench floppy from then on. Always used my 500 on a 1040s monitor, so I can't comment on the RF output. I never used the modulator for the Amiga. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware@laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 2 22:42:58 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: HP plotters In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990902190850.27974a8a@mailhost.intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Thu, 02 Sep 1999 19:08:50) References: <3.0.1.16.19990902190850.27974a8a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <19990903034258.22506.qmail@brouhaha.com> Joe wrote: > I've heard that there are knifes available that can be used in them to > cut strip lines on copper PCB and knifes for cutting out vinyl and other > materials but I don't know what they cost or where you can get them. Does > anyone know any more about them? There are small machines designed for the express purpose of milling printed circuit boards. There's no way a pen plotter will be able to do that with a knife or drill; they weren't designed to produce enough force or move enough mass for that type of work. Modifying the pen lift assembly of a 9872 to raise the pen-down height enough for the thickness of a copper-clad board to plot resist is easy and works well. For cutting vinyl, perhaps. It's still way beyond what the plotter was designed for. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 2 22:44:07 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? In-Reply-To: <37CF1536.95CBCFDD@halcyon.com> (djenner@halcyon.com) References: <19990902221048Z13255-24908+106@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> <37CF1536.95CBCFDD@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <19990903034407.22521.qmail@brouhaha.com> > The ultimate, of course, is the UNARY computer. If you look in the > "Feynman Lectures on Computation", Richard Feynman, 1996, you'll see > that he has you start designing a unary computer. Maybe not so easy > when all you have to work with is "1"! (It has to have a variable > word length, of course). When all you have are ones (and nothing else to represent the absence of a one), what do you use to delimit the start and end of variable-length words? From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Sep 2 23:05:46 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: HP plotters Message-ID: In a message dated 09/02/1999 7:05:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > I've heard that there are knifes available that can be used in them to > cut strip lines on copper PCB and knifes for cutting out vinyl and other > materials but I don't know what they cost or where you can get them. Does > anyone know any more about them? > > Joe Hmm -- most vinyl cutters are in reality just cheap single-pen plotters with the equivalent of an Exacto knife in them. Check with wholesale suppliers of machines for the signage or awards industries and you should be able to turn up someone who can provide a cutting tool which will come close to -- if not exactly match -- the holders for your pens. Or, you can e-mail me off-list & I'll point you in the right direction. Glen 0/0 From stanp at storm.ca Thu Sep 2 23:30:09 1999 From: stanp at storm.ca (Stan Pietkiewicz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Sources in Syracuse Message-ID: <37CF4ED1.39D67459@storm.ca> Does anyone know of any possible sources in the Syracuse, New York area that they'd be willing to share / divulge / point at? I'm particularly watching for DEC Q-bus goodies.... Thanks... Stan From Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU Thu Sep 2 23:46:58 1999 From: Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 power supply problems Message-ID: <21979073@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Anyone got any ideas for this guy? Please reply directly to him, as he's not subscribed to the list. Thanks. -- MB --- Forwarded Message from Dave --- I have a question. I have been looking for a Lisa for quite some time and I finally found one (Lisa 2 or XL, not quite sure). I brought it home and excitedly plugged it in and ... nothing. No spinning of drives no monitor activity just a small, short hiss that comes from the power supply every time I hit the soft switch. According to sun's pdf repair guide this is perhaps a problem with the power supply (mine is the 1.8 model). Could you perhaps suggest to me (or refer me to source that could) how to check my power supply, or if this is even the right course of action. Have been diddling with this for three days now and have no ideas. I did however take a volt meter to the power supply and noted that while I have black on body of the power supply I only get one five volt reading and nothing else. That comes from the third tooth up and only on one side. Any help would really make my day and with luck I could join the likes of you folks. Thanks a lot Dave From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Sep 3 03:32:45 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: HP plotters In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990902190850.27974a8a@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <004101bef554$f0bc8fe0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: >At 09:07 AM 9/2/99 -0600, Dick wrote: >>I had one fellow describe to me how he rigged his pen in the 7475 so he >>could draw his PCB layouts directly on the copper. That certainly wouldn't >>work with my inkjet printer! > > I've heard that there are knifes available that can be used in them to >cut strip lines on copper PCB and knifes for cutting out vinyl and other >materials but I don't know what they cost or where you can get them. Does >anyone know any more about them? > > Joe Gerber, I think, used to have a system using a tiny router (like a drill bit, except designed to cut sideways) to cut out circuit traces for board prototyping. Roland packaged a system with a plotter and swiveling exacto knife "pen" that most sign shops used to cut letters for banners etc. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Sep 3 09:00:47 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Major HCM update ... In-Reply-To: <25B2C31EDD35D311A08500805F199059022B02@postman.do.isst.fhg.de> Message-ID: <199909031201.OAA08315@horus.mch.sni.de> Servus Stefan, > just wanted to let you know that there was a major > update of the HomeComputer-Museum web-pages. Nun, alle paar Monate ein neues Design :) > NEC PC-8300 (Siemens Nixdorf) Ein ausgeschlachteter FST ? Hast Du den ganzen Koffer ? Wenn ja, ich hab so ziemlich alles was es dazu an Unterlagen gab (Die 2. Generation der SW wurde ja schliesslich nach meinen Vorgaben gebaut). Bei mir gibts nicht viel Neues, ausser vieleicht das ich jetzt endlich ein Lager habe ... Seit 2 Monaten tu ich praktisch nur Malern, Loecher gipsen, Waende Bauen etc. Was ist eigentlich aus dem Treffen geworden ? Ueber die Mailingliste kam nie was rueber. Servus Hans -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Sep 3 09:00:47 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 power supply problems In-Reply-To: <21979073@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <199909031201.OAA08318@horus.mch.sni.de> > I have a question. I have been looking for a Lisa for quite some time > and I finally found one (Lisa 2 or XL, not quite sure). I brought it > home and excitedly plugged it in and ... nothing. No spinning of drives > no monitor activity just a small, short hiss that comes from the power > supply every time I hit the soft switch. According to sun's pdf repair > guide this is perhaps a problem with the power supply (mine is the 1.8 > model). Could you perhaps suggest to me (or refer me to source that > could) how to check my power supply, or if this is even the right course > of action. Have been diddling with this for three days now and have no > ideas. > I did however take a volt meter to the power supply and noted that while > I have black on body of the power supply I only get one five volt > reading and nothing else. That comes from the third tooth up and only > on one side. Shure you closed the backside ? There's a small switch, and the machine only powers up if this switch is closed - safety first :) At least this is the most common problem when a Lisa won't power up. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Sep 3 09:07:54 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Major HCM update ... In-Reply-To: <199909031201.OAA08315@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <25B2C31EDD35D311A08500805F199059022B02@postman.do.isst.fhg.de> Message-ID: <199909031208.OAA08691@horus.mch.sni.de> I'm getting tired ... sorry, this was ment as a PM. H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Sep 3 07:23:55 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: HP plotters Message-ID: <802567E1.0043E40F.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> >>>I had one fellow describe to me how he rigged his pen in the 7475 so he >>>could draw his PCB layouts directly on the copper. That certainly wouldn't >>>work with my inkjet printer! >> >> I've heard that there are knifes available that can be used in them to >>cut strip lines on copper PCB and knifes for cutting out vinyl and other >>materials but I don't know what they cost or where you can get them. Does >>anyone know any more about them? >> >> Joe > > Gerber, I think, used to have a system using a tiny router (like a drill > bit, except designed to cut sideways) to cut out circuit traces for board > prototyping. > > Roland packaged a system with a plotter and swiveling exacto knife "pen" > that most sign shops used to cut letters for banners etc. I think Mike has hit the nail on the head here. Unlike a pen, a knife only works in one direction. The "pen" of a cutting plotter MUST swivel for it to work - and giving it some degree of caster to swivel itself loses accuracy really fast. I like the idea of a router in the pen part of a plotter - but it's a lot of mass for the pen carriage to move around! Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Sep 3 10:27:46 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: References: <001f01bef4ff$bad1c4e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <199909031328.PAA12999@horus.mch.sni.de> > > Unquestionably, if you're looking for a computer "brand" it would have to be > > either a Kaypro or, of course, the Apple-II, with a Z-80 card, 16K memory > > add-on, SVA 8" drive controller, and the VIDEX or similar 24x80 display > > board. You could actually use that for useful work. At the age I'd reached > > by 1980, (35) I was still able to read the Kaypro display, however, but the > > full-sized one normally used with the Apple][ was easier to use. In any > > case, I read somewhere that there were as many Apple ][ machines running > > CP/M as any other single system. Don: > That would be very interested if documented. However, I find it very hard > to believe! Well, I have no numbers at hand and I think it is impossible to get 'em (MS won't tell you and most cards have been clones) but since a) the CPM card was less than USD 30 in the early 80s (as clone), b) from around 1982 on almost every clone board already incooperated a Z80 and c) almost every comercial CP/M soft was also available in an Apple ][ version (different disk format and some specialalities about I/O), I belive that one can assume the Apple ][ with Softcard(-clone) as the #1 brand CP/M system. To publish my own opinion on that question: a) Of course the Apple ][ - maybe with a Z80H subsystem (seperate 64 to 128 K RAM and upt to 10 MHz) - as one of the most supported CP/M systems with literaly _all_ possible soft. b) A Superbrain - This machine is just _way_cool_ -well ok, there's some nostalgia about ... For todays CP/M usage I assume a,c,d or e c) An PC with NEC V2x/3x or just any 8086/88 Machine with a replacement by V30/V20 - preferly a high performance PC like an IBM-PC (clone) with Screamer or any higher clock rate clone. d) One of the 'modern' Dual CPU S100 systems (any manufacturer). e) look for a Z180 (HD64180) machine - they are available in flavours until 20 MHz. I assumed that we where talking about CP/M-80 (and to some extend CP/M-86). Well, a) is of course a good choice if space is a reason, since you'll get two classic systems at once, while c) is possibly the best choice to get a maximum performance at minimum cost - and you are able to run CP/M-80 and CP/M-86 and MS-DOS - with some trick even seamless without reboot - just start the programms :) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Sep 3 10:27:46 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Insurance. In-Reply-To: <802567E0.005FDAB4.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <199909031328.PAA13011@horus.mch.sni.de> > > My question concerns insurance, and is the reason I was referred to this > > fine gathering. Does anyone here carry insurance against fire (or theft?!) > > for their collections? > IIRC my home contents insurance doesn't cover my collection. I intend to change > that... man~ana... My home insurance covers 'hobby' artefacts only as long as they are within the 'usual' range - which means in most cases less than 5% of the total secured values. > When I brought a Tek 4052 to the USA for the VCF last year, I insured it for > 2000 pounds (about $3000 US), which cost me 100 pounds just for the 2 weeks I > was out of the UK. With a policy excess of 100 pounds, I didn't bother claiming > for the minor chassis bends and keyboard damamge when the airline dropped it. > It still worked, after all! Oops - you dindn't tell that. > I don't know whether my insurance experience is typical. Anyone else? Well, like always, insurance is about paying a lot and getting ZERO. Gruss H. -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Sep 3 11:01:33 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: HP plotters In-Reply-To: <19990903034258.22506.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <3.0.1.16.19990902190850.27974a8a@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19990902190850.27974a8a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990903110133.3e4fa0bc@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 03:42 AM 9/3/99 -0000, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> I've heard that there are knifes available that can be used in them to >> cut strip lines on copper PCB and knifes for cutting out vinyl and other >> materials but I don't know what they cost or where you can get them. Does >> anyone know any more about them? > >There are small machines designed for the express purpose of milling >printed circuit boards. There's no way a pen plotter will be able to do >that with a knife or drill; they weren't designed to produce enough force >or move enough mass for that type of work. That's what I thought but I've seen people do it. One of the classes at my unverisity used some kind of knife in a HP plotter to make strip lines on a PCB for microwave work. Apparently they had been doing it for a while and it worked successfully. I wasn't interested in it at the time so I didn't pay attention to what they were doing and I don't even know which plotter they used except that it was a large flat bed HP plotter. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Sep 3 11:03:31 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: HP plotters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990903110331.3e4f9a48@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:05 AM 9/3/99 EDT, Glen wrote: >In a message dated 09/02/1999 7:05:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > >> I've heard that there are knifes available that can be used in them to >> cut strip lines on copper PCB and knifes for cutting out vinyl and other >> materials but I don't know what they cost or where you can get them. Does >> anyone know any more about them? >> >> Joe > >Hmm -- most vinyl cutters are in reality just cheap single-pen plotters with >the equivalent of an Exacto knife in them. That's about what I expected. But how do they make it cut in different directions? Or is the knife on a swivel? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Sep 3 11:06:05 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Lisa 2 power supply problems In-Reply-To: <21979073@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990903110605.3f9f4e7e@mailhost.intellistar.net> If anyone has any specific information about fixing the Lisa power supplies please post it here. This is a common problem and I for one would like to know more about fixing them. I have a Lisa with a good power supply but you can never tell when it may die. Joe At 12:46 AM 9/3/99 EDT, you wrote: >Anyone got any ideas for this guy? Please reply directly to him, as he's not subscribed to the list. Thanks. -- MB > >--- Forwarded Message from Dave --- > >I have a question. I have been looking for a Lisa for quite some time >and I finally found one (Lisa 2 or XL, not quite sure). I brought it >home and excitedly plugged it in and ... nothing. No spinning of drives >no monitor activity just a small, short hiss that comes from the power >supply every time I hit the soft switch. According to sun's pdf repair >guide this is perhaps a problem with the power supply (mine is the 1.8 >model). Could you perhaps suggest to me (or refer me to source that >could) how to check my power supply, or if this is even the right course >of action. Have been diddling with this for three days now and have no >ideas. >I did however take a volt meter to the power supply and noted that while >I have black on body of the power supply I only get one five volt >reading and nothing else. That comes from the third tooth up and only >on one side. > >Any help would really make my day and with luck I could join the likes >of you folks. > >Thanks a lot > >Dave > > > From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Sep 3 10:15:09 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: HP plotters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:32:45 -0700 Mike Ford wrote: > Gerber, I think, used to have a system using a tiny router (like a drill > bit, except designed to cut sideways) to cut out circuit traces for board > prototyping. I've seen this kind of thing done, both for quick turnaround at the prototype stage and for "design confidentiality". > Roland packaged a system with a plotter and swiveling exacto knife "pen" > that most sign shops used to cut letters for banners etc. My favourite peripheral of all time: the Roland 3-axis milling machine. It could cut full 3D models out of blocks of plastic, presumably controlled by a kind of 3D HPGL. Made a hell of a mess with little green plastic shavings! Anybody got one? Anybody want to get rid of one? :-) -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU Fri Sep 3 10:18:54 1999 From: Marion.Bates at Dartmouth.EDU (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Imsai disk drive? Message-ID: <21984575@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 610 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990903/e534184d/attachment.bin From dogas at leading.net Fri Sep 3 10:47:29 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike haas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Imsai disk drive? In-Reply-To: <21984575@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: Marion!!!! I want it and will pay *much* more than that!! Thanks Mike: -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Marion Bates Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 11:19 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Imsai disk drive? Hey folks, I was at an estate sale today and saw an Imsai 8080. It got sold ($12) before I had a chance to really check it out -- I know nothing about them, except for having heard of them on this list. Did I miss something fantastic here? Maybe don't tell me if I did. :-/ Anyway, nearby was a double-decker 5.25" floppy drive, woodgrain case, with a ribbon cable (didn't count the pins, sorry). I thought it might go with the computer. It was marked $5 -- if anyone's dying to have it, let me know and I'll pick it up for you. Reply before 1pm today though (I'm leaving town for the weekend.) -- MB -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990903/4bc9c2b0/attachment.html From djenner at halcyon.com Fri Sep 3 10:55:01 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? References: <19990902221048Z13255-24908+106@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> <37CF1536.95CBCFDD@halcyon.com> <19990903034407.22521.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <37CFEF55.E2D38F5D@halcyon.com> Ahhh! It's nice to see someone is awake! You do need to have some way of delineating the data you are crunching. Feynman does this in the context of a Turing machine, where he writes "tape marks" of arbitrary content, but specific significance, to indicate the state of the process. Eric Smith wrote: > > > The ultimate, of course, is the UNARY computer. If you look in the > > "Feynman Lectures on Computation", Richard Feynman, 1996, you'll see > > that he has you start designing a unary computer. Maybe not so easy > > when all you have to work with is "1"! (It has to have a variable > > word length, of course). > > When all you have are ones (and nothing else to represent the absence of > a one), what do you use to delimit the start and end of variable-length > words? From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Sep 3 13:04:38 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Why is CP/M faster than DOS In-Reply-To: <37CE80E4.FBA985B6@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <199909031605.SAA19342@horus.mch.sni.de> > After reading all the comments on CP/M computers a comment was made that CP/M > is a faster OS that DOS.. I have found this to be very true. > My Kaypro 1X boots up in 5 seconds, and loads MBASIC in about another 5 > seconds, also > executes the same BASIC code faster than on my XT. > Now on my old Compaq XT, it takes about 30 seconds just for the hardware to > powerup, > then another 20 seconds to boot to a DOS prompt, then another 15 seconds to > boot BASIC. > So can some of the experts here tell me why CP/M is so much faster ? Well, you should skip the hardware power up time when compareing, since most old systems didn'n check anything at all, so its 5+5 vs. 20+15. Now take the more sophisticated OS into account. MS-DOS (I assume something like 2.11 or higher) is a _way_ more complex system (loadable device driver etc.) while CP/M is just a memory image with some adjustments. If you take DOS 1.x _without_ any additional stuff, the needed time to boot gets _very_ close. Further on, CP/M is barely more than a programm loader, while MS-DOS offers quite more abstraktion - in fact, the CP/M functionality is more like the PC-BIOS (I still won't call MS-DOS an OS either). Next the programm structure on file is a bit more complex than just loading the image - additional processing is needed. And finaly, the Coding is bigger - this results in way longer loading times, since the media (Minidisks) are at the same transfer rate. Oh, and last but not least: If you compare a Z80 4MHz to an 8088 4.77MHz, you get a very close finish ... especialy when the programm isn't realy adapted to the processors - and most of the early apps have just been (more or less) automatic conversion of 8080 code. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From mranalog at home.com Fri Sep 3 11:36:18 1999 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: 16-sector disks? Message-ID: <37CFF902.A3CD58BC@home.com> Doug Spence said: > >The 5 1/4" disks were used on, among others, the Vector Graphic > >S-100 computers. > > OK, so at least the media wasn't specially produced for AES. :) > A few years ago I picked up a large quantity of 16 sector disks and I was begining to think that I would never find a machine that needed them. Then I found this FDS-100 Minifile made by G.U.C. Products. This is a micro based floppy subsystem with a single drive, keypad and RS-232 interface (it was also available with 488, 8 bit parallel, or PDP-11 interface) You just open a blank file with the keypad, then dump data to the FDS-100 through the serial port and then close the file with the keypad. And loading afile is just that easy too. Anyway, mine is double sided, uses a Shugard 450 drive, and stores 178,560 bytes net on 16 sector disks. --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Sep 3 11:59:36 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Why is CP/M faster than DOS In-Reply-To: <199909031605.SAA19342@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: > since most old systems didn'n check anything at all, so its Most yes but not all. My Visual 1050 does a powerup test then tests to see what the boot device (floppy or winni) is useable. Still faster! As to device loadability and images on disk. CPM generally is loaded as an image on disk for versions up to CPM3. CPM3, MPM and CPM86 (68k too) All load a loader that is core file system and that loaded loads a file called CPM.sys though in some causes it will load peices and link them. The most accurate statement about cpm (commonly 2.2) is that it prohibited nothing. Loadable devices can and was done, though most BIOSs were pretty bare. So if you wanted loadable devices and what not it was quite doable and the ZCPR system was one such example. Even TSR programs were done such as Handyman for example. > Further on, CP/M is barely more than a programm loader, while MS-DOS More correctly it is a complete file system. The CPP was at 2k barely more than a file loader. There was nothing to prevent you from replacing CCP with your own (ZCCP, ZCPR, CCP+ examples). If I could make one comment rre were the system before about 82'sih that had a bios that used interrupts. Example like the Vt180 or later years AMproLB began to show what the CPM was capable of. > Oh, and last but not least: If you compare a Z80 4MHz to an 8088 4.77MHz, > you get a very close finish ... especialy when the programm isn't realy > adapted to the processors - and most of the early apps have just been > (more or less) automatic conversion of 8080 code. This is true for both. The CPM image is 8080 code and if optimized for z80 it's both smaller and faster. Running CPM (P2dos a z80 clone) on a 10mhz z80 with 128k of ram via paged MMU and fast DMA floppy and hard disks is a shockingly fast machine in actual use. I know my s100 crate is exactly this. The CPM version is stil 2.2 via the clone but all of the mods like ZCPR, loadable devices, TSRs, RSXs are in there and quite pleasent to use. I also have background print spooling, background loadable programs (simple timeshare) implmented. it was quite easy to do in that CPM does not prohibit it (it just doesn't do it) Allison From mranalog at home.com Fri Sep 3 12:06:05 1999 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? Message-ID: <37CFFFFD.443278F2@home.com> > My favourite was the old Xerox 820-II, with the high keyboard and 8inch > drives. It runs Dbase and WordStar with great dignity. Since we're voting, I want to put a vote in for the PMC-101 "MicroMate". The MicroMate is a 128K CP/M computer that is the size of one TRS-80 floppy disk drive, so it fits anywhere. You can add 3 additional external drives. And it comes with a utility that allows you to configure any of the drives as any of (about) 5 different CP/M formats, so you can copy and translate the format of CP/M disks in one operation. It has built-in "TERMINAL" and "MODEM" serial ports. And (I don't have it in front of me) I believe it also has a built-in parallel printer port. --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From mranalog at home.com Fri Sep 3 12:29:17 1999 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? Message-ID: <37D0056D.3EF14A2E@home.com> Tom said: > I now have need for some basic information on the possibility of > non-binary computers, but am unable to find anything. Can anybody point > me in the direction of some info? > Thanks. > Tom Owad Tom, just search the Web for the phrase "analog computer". :) --Doug ==================================================== Doug Coward dcoward@pressstart.com (work) Sr. Software Eng. mranalog@home.com (home) Press Start Inc. http://www.pressstart.com Sunnyvale,CA Curator Analog Computer Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ==================================================== From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Sep 3 12:37:03 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: HP plotters In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990903110133.3e4fa0bc@mailhost.intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Fri, 03 Sep 1999 11:01:33) References: <3.0.1.16.19990902190850.27974a8a@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19990902190850.27974a8a@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19990903110133.3e4fa0bc@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <19990903173703.27762.qmail@brouhaha.com> Joe wrote: > That's what I thought but I've seen people do it. One of the classes at > my unverisity used some kind of knife in a HP plotter to make strip lines > on a PCB for microwave work. Apparently they had been doing it for a while > and it worked successfully. I wasn't interested in it at the time so I > didn't pay attention to what they were doing and I don't even know which > plotter they used except that it was a large flat bed HP plotter. As far as I know, the 9872 family (including the 7220 and 7221) were the biggest and last flatbed plotters HP ever made. Presumably for microwave work they didn't need to cut very large boards. From dwollmann at ibmhelp.com Fri Sep 3 12:47:12 1999 From: dwollmann at ibmhelp.com (David Wollmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Fella looking for IBM 5362 SSP media Message-ID: Jason Olson Jason has a 5362 he'd like to get running, but no SSP for it. I can't help him at the moment as my 5363 is in pieces and I'm too busy to put it back together right now. -- David Wollmann DST / DST Data Conversion http://www.ibmhelp.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Sep 3 12:41:42 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? In-Reply-To: <37CFEF55.E2D38F5D@halcyon.com> (djenner@halcyon.com) References: <19990902221048Z13255-24908+106@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> <37CF1536.95CBCFDD@halcyon.com> <19990903034407.22521.qmail@brouhaha.com> <37CFEF55.E2D38F5D@halcyon.com> Message-ID: <19990903174142.27799.qmail@brouhaha.com> "David C. Jenner" wrote: > You do need to have some way of delineating the data you are crunching. > Feynman does this in the context of a Turing machine, where he writes > "tape marks" of arbitrary content, but specific significance, to indicate > the state of the process. OK. So it's not really a unary computer after all. Note that Turing machines actually need at least two symbols. However, it is common for programs for binary Turing machine to represent a positive integer as the count of the number of ones between a pair of zeros that serve as delimiters. When I was playing with Turing machines, I tried to use a true binary place-value representation using two tape locations for each bit, so that one of the tape locations of the pair was the field delimiter. However, the code quickly got too complex and hurt my brain. (Hmmm... maybe the damage was permanent; that would explain a lot.) From jlwest at tseinc.com Fri Sep 3 13:02:32 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: AS400 saved from dumpster (apparently) Message-ID: <006001bef636$7eb1c900$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> well, it's not really a classic to my way of thinking but..... I was sitting in my office 1/2 hour ago, and out the window I saw a truck pull up to the dumpster in the parking lot. The guy started to pull out a very nice clean decomissioned hours ago AS400. He was headed to the dumpster with it. I have no interest in IBM stuff whatsoever, but decided to walk down for a looksee. When I got downstairs, someone in another office downstairs had seen the same thing and was already handing the guy cash for the system. I found it amusing..... Jay West From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Sep 3 13:13:20 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: AS400 saved from dumpster (apparently) In-Reply-To: <006001bef636$7eb1c900$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990903111017.03ecd100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> This suggests perhaps a hunting theory; Put out a big dumpster that says "COMPUTER EQUIPMENT ONLY" and set up a small blind perhaps 45' away ( you don't want to scare the prey ) then have it manned round the clock by collector/volunteers watching. As soon as a truck pulls up you swoop down and rescue the gear. You might need some decoys so maybe a keyboard and an old terminal in a box next to the dumpster would help. --Chuck At 01:02 PM 9/3/99 -0500, Jay West wrote: >When I got downstairs, someone in another office downstairs had seen the >same thing and was already handing the guy cash for the system. >I found it amusing..... From jim at calico.litterbox.com Fri Sep 3 13:08:22 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: AS400 saved from dumpster (apparently) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990903111017.03ecd100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Sep 03, 1999 11:13:20 AM Message-ID: <199909031808.MAA00291@calico.litterbox.com> > > This suggests perhaps a hunting theory; > > Put out a big dumpster that says "COMPUTER EQUIPMENT ONLY" > and set up a small blind perhaps 45' away ( you don't want > to scare the prey ) then have it manned round the clock by > collector/volunteers watching. As soon as a truck pulls up > you swoop down and rescue the gear. You might need some > decoys so maybe a keyboard and an old terminal in a box > next to the dumpster would help. > > --Chuck *laugh* Might want to put a fairly thick cushion of foam rubber inside it, in case the quarrey is fast enough to get the machine into the dumpster before being pounced. (and to save cash, since once it's in your dumpster it's yours. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jlwest at tseinc.com Fri Sep 3 13:23:55 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: AS400 saved from dumpster (apparently) Message-ID: <001201bef639$7b42d9a0$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Hey, I think we're on to something here! Perhaps this new strategy should be includedin the Collectors Guide book..... In addition, I think one could choose where to place the dumpster strategicly, like right next to a company I know that has a decked out PDP-11/40 system in storage that I can't get them to let go of... :) Jay West -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, September 03, 1999 1:09 PM Subject: Re: AS400 saved from dumpster (apparently) >> >> This suggests perhaps a hunting theory; >> >> Put out a big dumpster that says "COMPUTER EQUIPMENT ONLY" >> and set up a small blind perhaps 45' away ( you don't want >> to scare the prey ) then have it manned round the clock by >> collector/volunteers watching. As soon as a truck pulls up >> you swoop down and rescue the gear. You might need some >> decoys so maybe a keyboard and an old terminal in a box >> next to the dumpster would help. >> >> --Chuck > >*laugh* Might want to put a fairly thick cushion of foam rubber inside it, >in case the quarrey is fast enough to get the machine into the dumpster before >being pounced. (and to save cash, since once it's in your dumpster it's yours. >:) > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > BeOS Powered! >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 3 13:28:37 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Imsai disk drive? References: <21984575@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <99090314300500.29702@vault.neurotica.com> On Fri, 03 Sep 1999, Marion Bates wrote: >I was at an estate sale today and saw an Imsai 8080. It got sold ($12) before I >had a chance to really check it out -- I know nothing about them, except for >having heard of them on this list. Did I miss something fantastic here? Maybe >don't tell me if I did. :-/ Well heck, since they frequently fetch $3000 on eBay...I'd say $12 is a reasonable deal. ;) -Dave McGuire From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 3 15:16:22 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Imsai disk drive? In-Reply-To: <21984575@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: > I was at an estate sale today and saw an Imsai 8080. It got sold ($12) before I > had a chance to really check it out -- I know nothing about them, except for > having heard of them on this list. Did I miss something fantastic here? Maybe > don't tell me if I did. :-/ Well, there are some people here who might be willing to pay almost TWICE that amount. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 3 15:51:27 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: DEC FPF11 ?!?! Message-ID: OK, what kind of a system does a FPF11 go into? It's some kind of floating point processor and it's Q-Bus. Beware, I might be asking several, what is this sort of questions today. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ss at allegro.com Fri Sep 3 15:49:24 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Imsai disk drive? In-Reply-To: <99090314300500.29702@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <199909032049.NAA22424@bart.allegro.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1609 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990903/8d0b4d04/attachment.bin From edick at idcomm.com Fri Sep 3 16:01:09 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? Message-ID: <001f01bef64f$735433e0$0400c0a8@winbook> The local N* users must have figured that out eventually. One of them got together with the guy who owned the Champion software outfit and started a users group for the "superbrain" computer which was a complete system packaged in what looked like a desktop terminal. I know that at least this one guy still had his N* after that. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 10:53 AM Subject: Re: Best CP/M machine? >> >From what I remember, the Northstar was probably the most widely hated >> "system" around in these parts. There was a local company which produced an >> apparently quite nice accounting package (Champion???) which wouldn't run on >> their most popular model, the "Horizon" because it had an 8K ROM which >> reduced their TPA under CP/M to the point where this package wouldn't run >> properly. > >NS* system wasn't the problem it was the MPS-A floppy system, It looked >like 20 of ram/rom at 0E800h through 0EFFFh, It was memory mapped. There >was only 256 bytes of actual rom. This generally meant for CPM users that >the upper 4k of ram was unused. > >The fix was simple, CCP and BDOS ending 256bytes belove the controller >and tweek the jump table for 0F000h. Then you put the BIOS above the >FDC in ram. Works well and you end up with a 56-58k system. > >> The CompuPro combinations fit in the same category, i.e. the ones who loved >> 'em loved 'em, and the rest of us didn't. The owner of that company had the >> practice of having his people design circuits whith whatever he'd bought for >> cheap this week, and that meant that sometimes they were good, and sometimes >> they weren't. His boards often suffered from compatibility problems, even >> with other boards of his own manufacture. It was, to be sure, spotty. > >Stating that is nice but I have about 25-30 of those boards (all the >interfacer models, RAM16/17/20/21/22/23, DISK1A, DISK3, system support, >8/16 cpu, CPU-Z, MPX-1, Mdrive, two crates) NONE support your view. This >may not be true for older boards (I'll bet the early ones were poor). > >I know they were considered reliable as they were pulled from 10 s100 >crates that were used here before PCs replaced them. They ran CHAMPION, >DBASE, BTRIVE and a few other familiar names using Concurrent-dos on the >8/16 cards. > >> S-100 systems, in general, can't be viewed in the same way as, say, a >> single-board machine, because there is too much potential variation in its >> configuration to define it in a specific way. Some manufacturers sold board >> sets, about which they were willing to make certain claims about >> performance, etc, but most of them just wanted to ship their boards and let >> the headaches fall where they may. > >They clearly werent PLUG and PLAY. Then again it was an industry wide >issue. The only way out was a one vendor box or do you own system >integration . > > >> Computer stores, notably ComputerLand, quite popular in the late '70's-early >> '80's, tended to sell board sets from Cromemco, Vector, and occasionally >> NorthStar because the mfg would stand behind the sets they pushed. The >> Cromemco board sets were often displayed in a desk-enclosure with integral >> (vertically mounted) Persci (very fast, voice-coil-driven) floppy drives, >> into which it was very easy to drop a paper clip or something. Businesses >> tended to buy these because they were sold under a single aegis as opposed >> to letting someone "integrate" a system for them. The theory was that there >> was less risk that way. > >Certainly true to my experience on the east coast, the real problem was >the inductry was so volitile that Fly-by-night computer was often common. >and getting support for those older combines was at best iffy. From 1975 >through 1980 most every vendor we knew as the "originators" of the >industry either went under or changed names/product multiple times trying >to adapt to the changes that were going on. From 1980 on it only got >worse! > >However, this is not a CPM problem. > >Allison > > From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Fri Sep 3 16:07:58 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: DEC FPF11 ?!?! In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 3, 1999 01:51:27 pm" Message-ID: <19990903210809Z13336-20166+207@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > OK, what kind of a system does a FPF11 go into? It's some kind of floating > point processor and it's Q-Bus. > > Beware, I might be asking several, what is this sort of questions today. > It goes into Q-Bus based PDP11 systems. I know it will work with an 11/73 and 11/83. It may work in other systems as well. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From elvey at hal.com Fri Sep 3 16:53:14 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Imsai disk drive? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199909032153.OAA11798@civic.hal.com> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > I was at an estate sale today and saw an Imsai 8080. It got sold ($12) > before I > > had a chance to really check it out -- I know nothing about them, except for > > having heard of them on this list. Did I miss something fantastic here? > Maybe > > don't tell me if I did. :-/ > > Well, there are some people here who might be willing to pay almost TWICE > that amount. Ok, I'll bit you up to 2.5 that amount. Dwight From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Sep 3 17:00:47 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: HP plotters Message-ID: In a message dated 9/3/99 9:56:57 AM EST, rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: << >Hmm -- most vinyl cutters are in reality just cheap single-pen plotters with >the equivalent of an Exacto knife in them. That's about what I expected. But how do they make it cut in different directions? Or is the knife on a swivel? Joe >> As a previous poster noted, the knife is mounted in a swiveling holder. Glen Goodwin 0/0 From DD950 at prodigy.net Fri Sep 3 16:46:02 1999 From: DD950 at prodigy.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? Message-ID: <000201bef658$fa08fac0$fdbcfea9@cel-366> So why did Kaypro or, Non-Linear Systems as it really was I understand, go out of business anyway. I had gotten busy with other endeavers and when I looked about 1989 or 1990 or so, Kaypro was gone. It seemed as if they had enjoyed a good reputation. What exactly went wrong if anybody knows? Jim ---> From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Sep 3 17:12:01 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: HP plotters Message-ID: <5b881e1a.2501a1b1@aol.com> In a message dated 9/3/99 10:17:30 AM EST, John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk writes: << My favourite peripheral of all time: the Roland 3-axis milling machine. It could cut full 3D models out of blocks of plastic, presumably controlled by a kind of 3D HPGL. Made a hell of a mess with little green plastic shavings! Anybody got one? Anybody want to get rid of one? :-) -- John Honniball >> This machine also could be used to produce beautiful wooden plaques. If you _do_ find one of these, I'd suggest you buy or rig up a chip removal system. Letting the chips fall where they may will greatly reduce tool life and also produce imprecise cuts. Glen Goodwin 0/0 From mbg at world.std.com Fri Sep 3 17:30:44 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: DEC FPF11 ?!?! Message-ID: <199909032230.SAA02556@world.std.com> An FPF11 can be used with a KDF11-B (11/23+), which is a Qbus machine. It can also be used in an 11/24, it derives only power from the bus (if I remember correctly). I would suspect that it might also work with an 11/23 (KDF11-A), since it has the same chip location for Floating point as the 11/23+, but I've never confirmed this. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Fri Sep 3 17:34:26 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: DEC FPF11 ?!?! Message-ID: <199909032234.SAA04536@world.std.com> >It goes into Q-Bus based PDP11 systems. I know it will work with >an 11/73 and 11/83. It may work in other systems as well. Are you sure of that? Unless the floating point chip (and socket) on an KDJ11-A or -B is identical to the one which is used on the KDF11-A and -B (and I don't think they are identical, since the one for the KDF is a dual chip carrier), it won't work. The FPF11 board has a ribbon cable which ends in a connector which fits the Floating point chip socket of a 11/23, 11/23+ and 11/24. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Sep 3 17:44:20 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? Message-ID: <199909032244.SAA11538@world.std.com> <>It goes into Q-Bus based PDP11 systems. I know it will work with <>an 11/73 and 11/83. It may work in other systems as well. Totally incompatable with J11 cpu. I was reading the manual on my Plextor UltraPlex Wide, and it says it supports VMS. Thought that knowledge might be useful to y'all. Their web site has lots of info on their various products. http://www.plextor.com/home.html -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Fri Sep 3 18:02:33 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:10 2005 Subject: HP plotters Message-ID: <001e01bef660$68ccd420$0400c0a8@winbook> I've seen knife assemblies which fit into the pen holder on the plotter. Unfortunately I don't believe it's realistic to use them on the HP multi-pen plotters because they won't fit in the carrier. The one I examined had three roller bearings (implying it's runing on a flatbed, BTW) with a swivel mounted (obviously quite meticulously assembled as they're less than 1/2" in diameter blade centered between the rollers. These rollers are in a barrel which is what the plotter grabs and align themselves with respect to the direction of travel so the blade, which is spring loaded and height adjustable for different thicknesses of vinyl. I've never seen one working on a drum plotter like my 7585B, though. I'd really hate to have to build one of these things. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, September 02, 1999 5:05 PM Subject: Re: HP plotters >At 09:07 AM 9/2/99 -0600, Dick wrote: >>I had one fellow describe to me how he rigged his pen in the 7475 so he >>could draw his PCB layouts directly on the copper. That certainly wouldn't >>work with my inkjet printer! > > I've heard that there are knifes available that can be used in them to >cut strip lines on copper PCB and knifes for cutting out vinyl and other >materials but I don't know what they cost or where you can get them. Does >anyone know any more about them? > > Joe > From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Fri Sep 3 18:18:57 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: DEC FPF11 ?!?! In-Reply-To: <199909032234.SAA04536@world.std.com> from Megan at "Sep 3, 1999 06:34:26 pm" Message-ID: <19990903231914Z13343-20166+239@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > > >It goes into Q-Bus based PDP11 systems. I know it will work with > >an 11/73 and 11/83. It may work in other systems as well. > > Are you sure of that? Unless the floating point chip (and socket) > on an KDJ11-A or -B is identical to the one which is used on the > KDF11-A and -B (and I don't think they are identical, since the one > for the KDF is a dual chip carrier), it won't work. > > The FPF11 board has a ribbon cable which ends in a connector which > fits the Floating point chip socket of a 11/23, 11/23+ and 11/24. > You're right, I was thinking of the FPJ11, which is the 11/73 version. The FPF11 is for the 11/23 and related systems. I knew that I had one of them at one point, just couldn't remember which system it was on. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From edick at idcomm.com Fri Sep 3 18:13:13 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: HP plotters Message-ID: <004801bef661$e5f74240$0400c0a8@winbook> If you're determined to use a flatbed plotter to mill PCB's, you could consider making a custom "quill" powered by a flexible-cable DREMEL tool. You will need a really small (e.g. 0.020") carbide milling tool and LOTS of them, since they break easily. I'd advise a very modest feed rate and, of course, since you can't place traces at any less than 0.030" centers, and that's pretty agressive, you will have to limit yourself to a VERY coarse routing grid. I'm told that you can expose and etch your own PCB quite a bit quicker than you can mill one, and, aside from the chemicals and the associated disposal problems, build better boards with chemicals than with a milling approach, I'd suggest you look for a good, positive resist material you can apply with the plotter in a refillable pen. There, your only problem will be in adjusting the height of the pen and the speed of the plotter to allow for the thickness of the PCB, and the thickness of the probably latex base ink/resist. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, September 03, 1999 8:57 AM Subject: Re: HP plotters >At 03:42 AM 9/3/99 -0000, you wrote: >>Joe wrote: >>> I've heard that there are knifes available that can be used in them to >>> cut strip lines on copper PCB and knifes for cutting out vinyl and other >>> materials but I don't know what they cost or where you can get them. Does >>> anyone know any more about them? >> >>There are small machines designed for the express purpose of milling >>printed circuit boards. There's no way a pen plotter will be able to do >>that with a knife or drill; they weren't designed to produce enough force >>or move enough mass for that type of work. > > That's what I thought but I've seen people do it. One of the classes at >my unverisity used some kind of knife in a HP plotter to make strip lines >on a PCB for microwave work. Apparently they had been doing it for a while >and it worked successfully. I wasn't interested in it at the time so I >didn't pay attention to what they were doing and I don't even know which >plotter they used except that it was a large flat bed HP plotter. > > Joe > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 3 16:55:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: DEC FPF11 ?!?! In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 3, 99 01:51:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 416 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990903/dd8e5b9a/attachment.ksh From transit at primenet.com Fri Sep 3 19:12:29 1999 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? In-Reply-To: <199909021943.MAA07112@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Tom Owad wrote: > I recall reading an article a while back about the possibility of > building computers based on a number system other than two (octal, IIRC). > If memory serves me right, it was found possible to do, but not > practical and less efficient than binary. > > I now have need for some basic information on the possibility of > non-binary computers, but am unable to find anything. Can anybody point > me in the direction of some info? In one of his "Never Say Die" columns, Wayne Green (73 Magazine) theorized about "trigital" computers and data transmission schemes, amid other ruminations . . . I think his idea was more along the lines of data transmission: instead of having digital bits of just 1 and 0, you could have "trigital" bits of 0, 1 or 2. So, for example the binary number 1001101 (7 bits) could be sent, in trigital, as 2212 (4 bits), theoretically saving bandwidth. (Whether it actually *would* or not, I'll leave to the theorists) From elvey at hal.com Fri Sep 3 19:39:57 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199909040039.RAA12073@civic.hal.com> "Charles P. Hobbs" wrote: > > I think his idea was more along the lines of data transmission: instead > of having digital bits of just 1 and 0, you could have "trigital" bits of > 0, 1 or 2. So, for example the binary number 1001101 (7 bits) could be > sent, in trigital, as 2212 (4 bits), theoretically saving bandwidth. > (Whether it actually *would* or not, I'll leave to the theorists) > > Hi Sending multiple bits of information is and has been done for quite dome time. In modems, 9600 and above all use methods that encode more than one bit at a time. Dwight From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Sep 3 19:45:40 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? In-Reply-To: (transit@primenet.com) References: Message-ID: <19990904004540.30356.qmail@brouhaha.com> > So, for example the binary number 1001101 (7 bits) could be > sent, in trigital, as 2212 (4 bits), theoretically saving bandwidth. > (Whether it actually *would* or not, I'll leave to the theorists) Except that it isn't base 3, this is how modern modems work. Your standard V.34 modem can transfer data at up to 33.6 Kbps. But it actually uses under 4000 baud. That's because a baud is NOT defined as a bit per second. Rather, it is defined as a signal change per second, and the modem uses a large number of symbols (collectively called a constellation) instead of just binary. The tradeoff is that it can use a narrower frequency band than might otherwise be necessary, but it need a better SNR (signal-to-noise ratio). For the telephone system, which has a hard limit of under 4000 Hz (typically 3300 Hz), this tradeoff is obviously worthwhile. But for other transmission media such as coaxial cable or radio, it's usually better to use fewer symbols and more bauds. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 3 21:43:25 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: 3rd Party DEC boards Message-ID: OK, I've got basically everything easy to come up with any kind of ID, inventoried, a bunch of it's pretty much unmarked, so will take some looking. Does anyone know what any of this is? DCW-RL02 MTI MLV11M-3 MLSi-LP11 MDB SYSTEMS, INC MZV8-11 minntronics (50-ping ribbon cable) RLV112 Sigma SCD-RQD11/EC SRQD11-A/03 Webster CAMBEX 207-115-600 (RAM Board?) Couple of these look rather interesting. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spc at armigeron.com Fri Sep 3 21:50:39 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Sep 3, 99 05:12:29 pm Message-ID: <199909040250.WAA20829@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1251 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990903/c2061fca/attachment.ksh From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Sep 3 21:54:49 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: MINC-11 Message-ID: <19990903.215456.224.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: I asked some time ago if there was anyone interested in MINC-11 hardware. If you guys are still out there, please contact me via private E-Mail. Thanks. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From a2k at one.net Fri Sep 3 23:40:10 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > but the Amiga isn't. When I finally > figured out how the A520 worked, all I could get on my Apple composite > monitor was a green screen with a blank area at the top(looked kinfa like > the video is off a bit inside the monitor, which is partially true but it's > not THAT bad... just some hidden text on the edge usually) which blinks > maybe every 10-15 seconds or so. No sounds, no text, not really any video > at all. The power light is kinda flashing, maybe once every second or > two(haven't timed it yet). Any ideas on what's wrong? I'll hold off on the > how do I use it questions until after I finish raiding the local library of > the computer books, but feel free to send me any tips and tricks for these > systems... k This could be a fairly easy fix or a pain in the arse... Open up the case (Quite a few screws aroudn the perimeter... either philips or hex head depending on revision (don't remember which came first)), turn right side up, remove top carefully, unplug keyboard and LED cables (noting polarity), remove the shielfding right above the expansion (Bus?) ... this might require removing all of the shielding; I don't remember. At any rate there are a few tabs in addition to the screws; be careful as these break easily. Reseat the 68000 chip and replace the sheilding and cover (you may want to just plug the keyboard and LEDs back in to make sure that it works). Hopefully this will remedy the problem... if not... ugh... If the machine has 1.3 ROMs (most likely) I can maek you a copy of my AmigaOS 1.3 disks if you need them... I also have a few cover disks and utilities. Kevin From donm at cts.com Sat Sep 4 00:46:03 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: Best CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <000201bef658$fa08fac0$fdbcfea9@cel-366> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Sep 1999, Jim wrote: > So why did Kaypro or, Non-Linear Systems as it really was I understand, go > out of business anyway. Well the actual reason is that the Bankruptcy Court put them into Chapter 7 and closed them down. What led up to that is a rather longer and involved story which includes expansion faster than they could manage well, family problems, staying with 8-bitters too long, etc. There were approximately $20 million in claims against the company at the time of closure. > I had gotten busy with other endeavers and when I looked about 1989 or 1990 > or so, Kaypro was gone. Well, not quite, as the actual terminal date was about 10 June 1992. At that time they had produced and sold more than 750,000 personal computers - the vast majority of which were the Z-80 based machines. (How does that figure stack up against Z-80 cards for Apple IIs?) - don > It seemed as if they had enjoyed a good reputation. What exactly went wrong > if anybody knows? > > Jim > ---> > > From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Sep 4 01:38:05 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: Xerox 6085 Users out there? Message-ID: <19990904.013805.116.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: Does anyone out there own a *working* Xerox 6085? I have a potentially interesting experiment in need of a suitable volunteer. Please reply via private e-mail. Thanx. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 01:51:17 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! Message-ID: <19990904065117.10865.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gareth Knight wrote: > >all I could get on my Apple composite > > monitor was a green screen with a blank area at the top > > A green screen is a Chip memory error or a loose connection between the > chips and socket. Take the cover off and check the connection. It tends to be a loose Agnes chip. In the A500, C= later shipped a metal clip to attempt to hold it together in shipping. While the machine is open, check the integrity of the Agnus socket (the big square one in the middle of the board). If a previous owner tried to remove the Fat Agnes without a PLCC extractor, it's possible that they goobered up the socket. Mostly, as long as there isn't a vertical crack from the top of a corner down towards the PCB, you are probably OK for this problem. If no crack, press on the Fat Agnes to re-seat it. It might click as it seats. -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 4 07:32:09 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: 3rd Party DEC boards Message-ID: <990904083209.23200aea@trailing-edge.com> >OK, I've got basically everything easy to come up with any kind of ID, >inventoried, a bunch of it's pretty much unmarked, so will take some >looking. Does anyone know what any of this is? > > DCW-RL02 Well, it emulates a RL02, one would assume... > MTI MLV11M-3 DLV11 clone > MLSi-LP11 LP11 clone (line printer interface) > MZV8-11 minntronics (50-ping ribbon cable) DZV11 clone? > RLV112 DLV11 clone, again. > SCD-RQD11/EC Sigma-rebranded version of the Webster WQESD ESDI controller. (DSD and Qualogy also rebranded Webster boards.) > SRQD11-A/03 Webster Webster MFM controller > CAMBEX 207-115-600 (RAM Board?) Yep, count the chips to determine the capacity. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From Jan133 at aol.com Sat Sep 4 09:30:48 1999 From: Jan133 at aol.com (Jan133@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: JTS hard drives Message-ID: <255e0502.25028718@aol.com> Dear classic Do you have any ideas about how I can find a replacement hard drive for a JTS 1.4 gig 3" hard drive for my EPS Technologies Apex 166 laptop. Both EPS and JTS seem to be out of business. David Searles Jan133@aol.com From jwebste3 at bellsouth.net Sat Sep 4 11:03:58 1999 From: jwebste3 at bellsouth.net (JAMES WEBSTER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: JTS hard drives References: <255e0502.25028718@aol.com> Message-ID: <37D142EE.6F9D@bellsouth.net> David, The EPS line of notebooks were actually rebadged Chicony's ( http://www.chicony.com/ ). Chicony is not responsible for support of these notebooks, but I'm sure that they would be glad to help with relevant info about your notebook (with a friendly enough plea for help). Relay to them the EPS model number and the notebooks FCC ID#. You may also want to try: http://www.mcglen.com/ Jim Webster http://www.driverzone.com/ Jan133@aol.com wrote: > > Dear classic > > Do you have any ideas about how I can find a replacement hard > drive for a JTS 1.4 gig 3" hard drive for my EPS Technologies > Apex 166 laptop. Both EPS and JTS seem to be out of business. > > David Searles > Jan133@aol.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 4 09:34:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: 3rd Party DEC boards In-Reply-To: <990904083209.23200aea@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Sep 4, 99 08:32:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 214 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990904/7e4e186b/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Sep 4 10:36:05 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: Computer Museum opens in San Diego Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990904083605.009914d0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> The Seattle Times ran this in the Aug. 30th edition. http://www.seattletimes.com/news/technology/html98/muse_19990830.html I noted, with some amusement, that the author of the article doesn't seem to understand the difference between drum and disk storage. His use of the term "drum memory disk" was a bit of an eyeball-roller. Other than that, it's a decent article. Enjoy. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 4 11:16:11 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: 3rd Party DEC boards In-Reply-To: References: <990904083209.23200aea@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Sep 4, 99 08:32:09 am Message-ID: >> > RLV112 >> >> DLV11 clone, again. > >>From the number I'd have thought of something that emulated a DEC RLV12 >-- an RL0x controller for Q-bus. > >-tony I was rather hoping it was a RLV12 clone instead of a RLV11 clone, since I need a second RL0x controller that will work in a 22-Bit system. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 4 11:19:36 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: 3rd Party DEC boards In-Reply-To: <990904083209.23200aea@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: >> DCW-RL02 > >Well, it emulates a RL02, one would assume... That was my guess. In other words the next question would be what kind of drives. >> MTI MLV11M-3 > >DLV11 clone 18-Bit then I presume? >> SCD-RQD11/EC > >Sigma-rebranded version of the Webster WQESD ESDI controller. (DSD and >Qualogy also rebranded Webster boards.) Yes! Now that is great news! Considering that I needed another one of these! >> SRQD11-A/03 Webster > >Webster MFM controller Dang, was afraid of that. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 4 11:17:42 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: 3rd Party DEC boards Message-ID: <990904121742.23201bfe@trailing-edge.com> >>> > RLV112 >>> >>> DLV11 clone, again. >> >>>From the number I'd have thought of something that emulated a DEC RLV12 >>-- an RL0x controller for Q-bus. > >I was rather hoping it was a RLV12 clone instead of a RLV11 clone, since I >need a second RL0x controller that will work in a 22-Bit system. If it *is* a "RLV12 clone", it doesn't hook to s standard RL01/RL02 drive; it would make a MFM (or SASI or SMD or ...) drive look like a RL01 or RL02 to the system. If you can describe the card more fully (connectors? Big chips?) we'll do a better job of telling you exactly what it is. Sigma had the habit of starting many (not all!) of their clone-cards with R's (most of the others are S's), thus the confusion between RLV11 and DLV11. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sat Sep 4 13:37:25 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: Computer Museum opens in San Diego In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990904083605.009914d0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> from "Bruce Lane" at Sep 4, 99 08:36:05 am Message-ID: <199909041837.LAA01537@saul10.u.washington.edu> Bruce Lane wrote: > The Seattle Times ran this in the Aug. 30th edition. > > http://www.seattletimes.com/news/technology/html98/muse_19990830.html > > I noted, with some amusement, that the author of the article doesn't seem > to understand the difference between drum and disk storage. His use of the > term "drum memory disk" was a bit of an eyeball-roller. > > Other than that, it's a decent article. Enjoy. It's a bit lacking in substance, but you're right, it is decent. At least it doesn't make wild claims. I was trying to think of some strange excuse that could make the phrase "drum memory disk" meaningful. (Some UNIXes have a /dev/drum which is really a disk; I also have an article from alt.folklore.computers which describes one system's "firehose drum" which is really a disk, or maybe it's the other way around.) But I think the computer in question (made by Royal Precision -- is that the same as Royal McBee?) really does have a drum. The part I liked was this: A display case shows the progression of storage disks, starting with one from 1965 that's the size of a tractor-trailer tire. It held 2.5 megabytes of data and had to be sandblasted to be erased. Had to be sandblasted to be erased? Huh?? -- Derek From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 4 12:13:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: 3rd Party DEC boards In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 4, 99 09:19:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1330 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990904/37b2e946/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Sep 4 16:33:24 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: FS: Apple IIe tech Ref manual Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990904163324.4f3f8d48@mailhost.intellistar.net> For sale: Apple IIe Technical Reference manual hardback with plastic covered dust jacket. The first couple of pages have been torn out (page v is the first page) otherwise it's in fine condition, no marked or damaged pages. $10 plus shipping. Joe From jlwest at tseinc.com Sat Sep 4 17:02:09 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: esdi hard drive identification Message-ID: <001301bef721$23ca6240$0101a8c0@jay> One of the surplus stores in my area just got in a load of 5-1/4 form factor hard drives. They look just like the ones my PDP-11/73's use (RD51 or 52, can't recall). I believe my controller is a RQDX2, not a RQDX3. My drives are 30mb. I was wondering, is there an easy way (short of looking up the model numbers) to visually determine if any of the drives are ESDI and might work with my 11/73? Thanks! Jay West From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 4 17:26:16 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: esdi hard drive identification Message-ID: <990904182616.202000ad@trailing-edge.com> >One of the surplus stores in my area just got in a load of 5-1/4 form factor >hard drives. They look just like the ones my PDP-11/73's use (RD51 or 52, >can't recall). I believe my controller is a RQDX2, not a RQDX3. My drives >are 30mb. If they're for use with a RQDX2 or 3, they'd better be MFM (ST-506) interface drives, not ESDI drives! The connectors are the same, but the signals are quite different. >I was wondering, is there an easy way (short of looking up the model >numbers) to visually determine if any of the drives are ESDI and might work >with my 11/73? Most any ST506 drive can be pressed into use with a RQDX1/2/3, with an appropriate low-level format (via XXDP's ZRQB?? or ZRQC?? formatter). The RD52 is a Quantum Q540 or an Atasi AT3046. Capacity around 30 Mbytes. There was also a CDC drive used, I'm not sure what the model number was. The RD53 is a Micropolis 1325 (early ones) or 1335 (later ones). Capacity around 65 Mbytes. The RD54 is a Maxtor XT2190. Capacity around 140 Mbytes. Won't work with a RQDX1/2, only a RQDX3. If you're really interested in pursuing the use of random MFM drives on your RQDX2 or RQDX3, pay close attention to the notes that Terry Kennedy has kept in ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt for the past decade or so. There are many details about the use of non-DEC-branded-drives, and in particular there are some suggestions for formatting them with XXDP. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 4 17:29:05 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: evolution of misinformation (was: Computer Museum opens in San Diego In-Reply-To: <199909041837.LAA01537@saul10.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: > A display case shows the progression of storage disks, starting with > one from 1965 that's the size of a tractor-trailer tire. It held 2.5 > megabytes of data and had to be sandblasted to be erased. > Had to be sandblasted to be erased? Huh?? Obviously, any sort of read/write device can be erased through writing of different content. Only a "write-once" device would require destructive erasure. We've seen that particular bit of silliness before. Once an authoritative statement of wrong information is made, others will follow, and if/when challenged merely refer to the authority. Quite a while back, we discussed some systems for LONG-term data storage. Stonehenge was [jokingly] mentioned as being a hard-sectored long term data storage device. (probably stationary media with moving head) Assuming a high data density stored as surface markings or pitting, sandblasting WOULD be the needed method for erasing surface data. How long before our silly speculation finds its way into the computer histories, and later generations are told that the druids invented hard-sectored disks? From kees.stravers at iae.nl Sat Sep 4 17:40:02 1999 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: QBus question Message-ID: <19990904224002.D95E17D9C@iaehv.iae.nl> On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:23:41 -0600 (MDT), vaxman@oldy.crwolff.com said: >In a previous messages (long since retired to /dev/null), someone >mentioned the QBus spec was in the PDP 11 bus handbook. The copies >I have (1979) have specs for the Unibus and the LSI-11 bus. Is >LSI-11 and QBus the same? or Similiar? If they are different, >what is the spec name/DEC part number I should look for. AFAIK the LSI-11 bus is a subset of the Qbus. Maybe these links will help you. Kees. http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/QBusConns.ps Q-bus connector pinouts http://www.telnet.hu/hamster/dr/qbus.html Qbus tutorial http://www.netbsd.org/Library/Hardware/Busses/Q-bus/index.html QBUS docs ftp://ftp.netbsd.org./pub/NetBSD/misc/ross/qbus/ QBUS design tips ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/ -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/ my Computer Home page http://www.vaxarchive.org/ documentation on old VAX systems http://vaxarchive.sevensages.org/ VAXarchive mirror Net-Tamer V1.08.1 - Registered From owad at applefritter.com Sat Sep 4 20:30:37 1999 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: End of Prodigy Classic Message-ID: <199909050031.RAA09284@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Prodig be discontinuing thier Prodigy Classic service on October 1. Article at < http://www.pathfinder.com/time/digital/feature/0,2955,30429-1,00.html> From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Sep 4 21:45:08 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: esdi hard drive identification Message-ID: <199909050245.WAA13919@world.std.com> Jay, First the RQDXn series are NOT ESDI. They are vanilla MFM. So the common drives that work are: ST225 RD31 20mb C/H 615/4 St251 RD32 40mb 777/6 Quantum D540 RD52 30mb 512/8 Micropolus 1325 RD53 70mb 1024/8 Maxtor 2190 RD54 159mb 1224/15 NOTES: *ST251 are generally terrible for reliablity, The D540 is a better drive and much faster. *M1325 (the 1300 series!) are prone to problems with heat and age. The Cylinder and heads were given as a guide to picking other drives that may match. With the right cables and all a RQDX2 addresses 1 RX50 and two RDxx drives or 1 Teac fd55F(or GFR) plus 3 RDxx. In this case the TEAC drive is jumped to run as a single RX50 (slow spindle and single sided). Others may be possible but you will need the X11 formatter to make it work. Allison from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 4, 99 03:29:05 pm Message-ID: <199909050547.WAA23167@saul4.u.washington.edu> I wrote, and Fred Cisin replied: > > A display case shows the progression of storage disks, starting with > > one from 1965 that's the size of a tractor-trailer tire. It held 2.5 > > megabytes of data and had to be sandblasted to be erased. > > Had to be sandblasted to be erased? Huh?? > We've seen that particular bit of silliness before. Once an authoritative > statement of wrong information is made, others will follow, and if/when > challenged merely refer to the authority. I assumed that by "particular bit of silliness" you meant "the 'erased by sandblasting' idea" but after a little thought, I realized that maybe you just meant "the spreading of a patently false statement". I wonder how such a ridiculous idea (about sandblasting, I mean) could have gotten started in the first place. Do you have any details? > Quite a while back, we discussed some systems for LONG-term data storage. > Stonehenge was [jokingly] mentioned as being a hard-sectored long term > data storage device. (probably stationary media with moving head) > Assuming a high data density stored as surface markings or pitting, > sandblasting WOULD be the needed method for erasing surface data. How > long before our silly speculation finds its way into the computer > histories, and later generations are told that the druids invented > hard-sectored disks? Well, you either want to prevent the correct information from disappearing, or prevent the incorrect information from spreading. It's too late to retract the joke, so you have to vigorously insist that it was a joke and hope that your correction lasts longer than the joke itself. -- Derek From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Sep 5 09:31:18 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: evolution of misinformation (was: Computer Museum opens in San Diego Message-ID: <199909051431.KAA24804@world.std.com> <> > A display case shows the progression of storage disks, starting wit <> > one from 1965 that's the size of a tractor-trailer tire. It held 2. <> > megabytes of data and had to be sandblasted to be erased. <> > Had to be sandblasted to be erased? Huh?? < <> We've seen that particular bit of silliness before. Once an authoritativ <> statement of wrong information is made, others will follow, and if/when <> challenged merely refer to the authority. < from "Derek Peschel" at Sep 4, 99 10:47:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1157 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990905/37a05190/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 5 14:45:32 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: evolution of misinformation (was: Computer Museum opens in San Diego In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > I assumed that by "particular bit of silliness" you meant "the 'erased by > > sandblasting' idea" but after a little thought, I realized that maybe you > > just meant "the spreading of a patently false statement". > I wonder if this disk came from a secure (military, possibly) > installation, and the platter had to be sandblasted before it could be > given to the museum. To prevent any possibility of future data recovery. Good point by Allison and by Tony. The sandblasting to erase could, instead, mean that it had to be sandblasted to DESTROY it before releasing to a third party. Certainly that could erase it. > Of course the implication is that the disk was sandblasted in normal use, > which appears to be absurd. THAT is the "particular bit of silliness" to which I referred. Hmmm. on the head carriage there would be an extra nozzle assembly to sand blast? And maybe a vacuum sand recovery system for reuse? From cushite at earthlink.net Sun Sep 5 10:00:57 1999 From: cushite at earthlink.net (Gene V. McNeil) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: no rom basic Message-ID: <37D285A9.E32D78A9@earthlink.net> I found this software that can fix the problem, it's called Hard Drive Mechanic 3.0 & Bootable Rescue Disk. Made by Higher Ground Diagnostics, Inc. I think this will help, if its not to late. Gene cushite@earthlink.net royston hill wrote: > > Hi ,can you assist .we have a old 386 with a conner 80 meg HD .We needed > to clean same and used the zero fill from disk manager on boot up. we > got message NO ROM BASIC >SYSTEM HALTED we cannot find anything on this > error message.or what we did wrong ?????? regards from africa ROY HILL From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 5 15:58:47 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3 Message-ID: I've got a KA650 and RAM boards thanks to my last haul, I believe it's the kind they sold to upgrade a MicroVAX II to a MicroVAX III. Anyway I'm wondering if they needed their own Cab Kit, or can use the MV2 Cab Kit. I pulled the board set out of the BA123, and swapped it with a MV2 board set in a Sigma Rack mount chassis, unfortunatly the system seems to be having problems. Another thought would be the RQDX3 revision as I didn't swap them. Also is there a writeup anywhere on what the various tests are as it counts down? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Sun Sep 5 16:38:45 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: no rom basic Message-ID: <000801bef7e7$21a7be60$0400c0a8@winbook> One common cause for this message is the lack of an active partition on the boot drive. If you can attach this drive to another (preferably diskless) system and read it then perhaps the problem will be solved if you use FDISK to "make the partition active" before attempting to boot from it. Normally when you FDISK the drive, it automatically makes the partition active. If you have more than one partition, it could, depending on what the DOS version was, decide to let you tell it specifically, without asking whether you want the partition made active (which you can only do on the "boot" drive) after telling it how large to make a primary partition. Even the latest version leaves the partition inactive if you've specified you want to use less than the whole disk. It does prompt you to make the partition active or not, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Gene V. McNeil To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, September 05, 1999 2:01 PM Subject: Re: no rom basic >I found this software that can fix the problem, it's called Hard Drive >Mechanic 3.0 & Bootable Rescue Disk. > >Made by Higher Ground Diagnostics, Inc. > >I think this will help, if its not to late. > >Gene >cushite@earthlink.net > > > >royston hill wrote: >> >> Hi ,can you assist .we have a old 386 with a conner 80 meg HD .We >needed >> to clean same and used the zero fill from disk manager on boot up. we >> got message NO ROM BASIC >SYSTEM HALTED we cannot find anything on >this >> error message.or what we did wrong ?????? regards from africa ROY >HILL > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 5 16:53:39 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I've got a KA650 and RAM boards thanks to my last haul, I believe it's the >kind they sold to upgrade a MicroVAX II to a MicroVAX III. Anyway I'm >wondering if they needed their own Cab Kit, or can use the MV2 Cab Kit. > >I pulled the board set out of the BA123, and swapped it with a MV2 board >set in a Sigma Rack mount chassis, unfortunatly the system seems to be >having problems. Another thought would be the RQDX3 revision as I didn't >swap them. OK, I'll be bad and reply to my own message. Just booted the system, the problem is the TK50 controller. So, now I'm wondering if the version of the ROMs on the TQK50 makes any difference. Gonna be a bit of a pain if I've got to downgrade the system to a MV2 if I want to put a modern version of VMS on it. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Glenatacme at aol.com Sun Sep 5 22:20:01 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: evolution of misinformation (was: Computer Museum opens in SanDiego Message-ID: In a message dated 09/05/1999 3:45:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cisin@xenosoft.com writes: > > Of course the implication is that the disk was sandblasted in normal use, > > which appears to be absurd. > > THAT is the "particular bit of silliness" to which I referred. Hmmm. on > the head carriage there would be an extra nozzle assembly to sand blast? > And maybe a vacuum sand recovery system for reuse? You have to have the recovery system in order to meet EPA standards --- you can't just blow all that sand out the back door, you know. After all, sand might pollute the environment ;>) Glen Goodwin 0/0 From Glenatacme at aol.com Sun Sep 5 22:34:04 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: no rom basic Message-ID: <7a50331f.2504902c@aol.com> royston hill wrote: > > > > Hi ,can you assist .we have a old 386 with a conner 80 meg HD .We > needed > > to clean same and used the zero fill from disk manager on boot up. we > > got message NO ROM BASIC >SYSTEM HALTED we cannot find anything on > this > > error message.or what we did wrong ?????? regards from africa ROY > HILL Umm, perhaps I missed part of this thread, but the procedure is fairly simple . . . NO ROM BASIC means "no bootable operating system found." 1) Boot from a floppy which also has fdisk.exe and format.com on it. 2) After boot, run fdisk and DELETE any existing partitions. 3) Create a new, single partition which utilizes the entire drive and answer YES when asked if you want to make the partition active. 4) Exit fdisk. 5) Reboot from the floppy drive. 6) Execute the command FORMAT C: /S 7) Remove the disk from the floppy drive. 8) Reboot, and you should get a C: prompt. If not, check for viruses and try again. 9) If still no success, make sure the drive is properly configured (as "master" or "single drive" depending on your configuration). Also make sure that the CHS values have been properly entered into your system BIOS. 10) If still no success, try a different drive. Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 5 23:05:41 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: Never Mind: MicroVAX 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I solved my problem. Moved the TQK50 to the next row after the RQDX3, instead of beside it and it works fine. Don't quite understand that, since I'm positive I had the RQDX3 and TQK50 in the exact same spot with the KA650 board set as they'd been with the KA630 board set, and I saw it working in that config. Does a system care if you've got a grant continuity board in a spot that you shouldn't have a board? It seems to me that it should. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From black at gco.apana.org.au Sun Sep 5 23:02:27 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: ID this power supply ? Message-ID: <000d01bef81c$fced1080$203a8aca@primus.com.au> One for the Commodore people - In my latest haul from the tip shop I got an unusual power supply that I don't recognise; it's made of metal, black, a little larger than the CBM "brick" type power supply for the original VIC's & C64's, oblong in shape has a 7 pin round plug, 9VDC at 1amp output, no ID except for "Commodore Personal Computer Power Supply" on it, serial # 100659, so can't tell (at least from the no.) where it was made. Anyone know what thisa belongs to ? // Lance Lyon black@gco.apana.org.au llyon@primus.com.au lance999@hotmail.com Ph: +61-3-6254-7376 // -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990906/0f58f339/attachment.html From dseagrav at bony.umtec.com Mon Sep 6 00:06:48 1999 From: dseagrav at bony.umtec.com (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: It's Alive! ^_^ Message-ID: Here we go again with RSTS... ^_^ The incriminating evidence follows. (Windows users select a monospaced font to read this, or it won't make sense.) Now I just gotta write UUCP for RSTS/E, and find a place to network this sucker... (Hehe, 1,2!usagi-circus@umtec.com - This much fun is probably illegal! ^_^) ----- USAGI-CIRCUS-BOOT.TXT ----- =20 Testing in progress - Please wait=20 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9=20 Starting system=20 Device DP30: does not interrupt - device disabled. RSTS V7.0-07 -USAGI CIRCUS- (DL0) Option: START You currently have: JOB MAX =3D 24, SWAP MAX =3D 31K. JOB MAX or SWAP MAX changes? NO Any memory allocation changes? NO You currently have crash dump enabled. Crash dump?=20 DD-MMM-YY? 05-SEP-99 12:00 PM? 11:16 PM INIT V7.0-07A RSTS V7.0-07 -USAGI CIRCUS- Command File Name?=20 DETACHING... ^C HELLO 1/2 Password: Job 1 is detached under this account Job number to attach to?=20 1 other user is logged in under this account Ready RUN $UTILTY UTILTY V7.0-07E RSTS V7.0-07 -USAGI CIRCUS- #ADD SWAPFILE 0 DL0:SWAP0 #ADD RT11 #ADD RSX ?Can't find file or account - in ADD=20 #ADD RMS11 ?Can't find file or account - in ADD=20 #ADD BP2COM ?Can't find file or account - in ADD=20 #ADD BASIC2 ?Can't find file or account - in ADD=20 #ADD BASIC ?Name or account now exists - in ADD=20 #ADD BAS4F ?Can't find file or account - in ADD=20 #ADD TECO #EXIT Ready BYE/F ATTACHING TO JOB 1=20 DETACHING... ^C HELLO 1/2 Password: Job 1 is detached under this account Job number to attach to?=20 1 other user is logged in under this account Ready RUN $TTYSET TTYSET V7.0-07B RSTS V7.0-07 -USAGI CIRCUS- Terminal characteristics program ? KB0:; VT100 For KB0:? KB17:; SPEED 9600; VT100 For KB17:? KB18:; SPEED 9600; VT100 For KB18:? KB19:; SPEED 9600; VT100 For KB19:? KB20:; SPEED 9600; VT100 For KB20:? KB21:; SPEED 9600; VT100 For KB21:? KB22:; SPEED 9600; VT100 For KB22:? KB23:; SPEED 9600; VT100 For KB23:? KB24:; SPEED 9600; VT100 For KB24:? EXIT Ready BYE/F ATTACHING TO JOB 1=20 DETACHING... =91^C HELLO 1/2 Password: Job 1 is detached under this account Job number to attach to?=20 1 other user is logged in under this account Ready RUN SY:(1,2)OPSER OPSER=09V7.0-07=09RSTS V7.0-07 -USAGI CIRCUS- #DETACH DETACHING . . . =91^C HELLO 1/2 Password: Jobs 1 2 are detached under this account Job number to attach to?=20 2 other users are logged in under this account Ready RUN SY:(1,2)QUEMAN QUEMAN=09V7.0-07A=09RSTS V7.0-07 -USAGI CIRCUS- STARTED AT: 11:16 PM ON 05-Sep-99 QUEUE FILE DATA CHECKED FOR CONSISTENCY # SPOOLERS ONLINE =3D 0; WILL CLEAR TABLE #DETACH/PRIORITY:0 JOB #3 'QUEMAN' PUT ONLINE DETACHING . . . =91^C HELLO 1/2 Password: Jobs 1 2 3 are detached under this account Job number to attach to?=20 3 other users are logged in under this account Ready RUN SY:(1,2)BATCH BATCH=09V7.0-07B=09RSTS V7.0-07 -USAGI CIRCUS- #BA0:/ERROR:FATAL/NOQUEUE/NODELETE DETACHING... ATTACHING TO JOB 1=20 DETACHING... =91^C HELLO 1/2 Password: Jobs 1 2 3 4 are detached under this account Job number to attach to?=20 4 other users are logged in under this account Ready RUN $UTILTY UTILTY=09V7.0-07E=09RSTS V7.0-07 -USAGI CIRCUS- #CCL ATT-ACH=3D$LOGIN.*;PRIV 30000 #CCL ATP-K=3D$ATPK.*;PRIV 30000 JOB #4 'BA0SPL' PUT ONLINE #CCL BCK-=3D$RMSBCK.TSK;0 #CCL BPC-REF=3D$BPCREF.*;30000 #CCL BYE-=3D$LOGOUT.*;PRIV 0 #CCL CNV-=3D$RMSCNV.TSK;0 MESSAGE=09=09 1 : 05-Sep-99 11:17 PM JOB:3 DET QUMRUN[1,2]=20 =09BA0SPL (4) PUT ONLINE #CCL CRE-ATE=3D$EDIT.*;30000 #CCL DEF-=3D$RMSDEF.TSK;0 #CCL DFN-=3D$RMSDFN.TSK;0 #CCL DES-=3D$RMSDES.TSK;0 #CCL DIS-MOUNT=3D$UMOUNT.*;PRIV 30000 #CCL DI-RECTORY=3D$DIRECT.*;PRIV 30000 #CCL DSP-=3D$RMSDSP.TSK;0 #CCL EDT-=3D$EDT.TSK;0 #CCL ED-IT=3D$EDIT.*;30000 #CCL FIT-=3D$FIT.*;PRIV 30000 #CCL HELLO-=3D$LOGIN.*;PRIV 0 #CCL HELP-=3D$HELP.*;PRIV 30000 #CCL IFL-=3D$RMSIFL.TSK;0 #CCL LBR-=3D$LBR.TSK;0 #CCL LIBR-=3D$LIBR.SAV;8208 #CCL LIN-K=3D$LINK.SAV;8208 #CCL LOG-IN=3D$LOGIN.*;PRIV 0 #CCL MACR-O=3D$MACRO.SAV;8216 #CCL MAC-=3D$MAC.TSK;0 #CCL MAK-E=3D$TECO.TEC;0 #CCL MOU-NT=3D$UMOUNT.*;PRIV 30000 #CCL MU-NG=3D$TECO.TEC;0 #CCL PAT-=3D$PAT.TSK;0 #CCL PIP-=3D$PIP.SAV;8208 #CCL PL-EASE=3D$PLEASE.*;PRIV 30000 #CCL QU-EUE=3D$QUE.*;PRIV 30000 #CCL RST-=3D$RMSRST.TSK;PRIV 0 #CCL SE-T=3D$TTYSET.*;PRIV 30000 #CCL SRT-=3D$SORT.TSK;0 #CCL SU-BMIT=3D$QUE.*;PRIV 30000 #CCL SW-ITCH=3D$SWITCH.*;PRIV 30000 #CCL SY-STAT=3D$SYSTAT.*;PRIV 30000 #CCL TE-CO=3D$TECO.TEC;0 #CCL TKB-=3D$TKB.TSK;0 #CCL TY-PE=3D$TYPE.TEC;8 #CCL UT-ILTY=3D$UTILTY.*;30000 #EXIT Ready BYE/F ATTACHING TO JOB 1=20 RUN $ERRINT 100 NO Ready ERRINT=09V7.0-07=09RSTS V7.0-07 -USAGI CIRCUS- ERRLOG File is 5% Full Change Size to < 100 >?=20 Utilize Crash File Output (Yes/No) ?=20 Detaching . . . HELLO =FF RSTS V7.0-07 -USAGI CIRCUS- Job 5 KB0 05-Sep-99 11:17 PM #1,2 Password: Jobs 1 2 3 4 are detached under this account Job number to attach to?=20 4 other users are logged in under this account -USAGI CIRCUS- RSTS/E V7.0-07 B I S H O U J O - S E N S H I _ ______ __ /--\ /--\ __| |____ /_____/ _ /__/ /= --/ | | | | |_ ___ | ______ / / / = / | ^ | | ^ | | | /_/ ** |____ | ** / / __ ** | = | | | | | | | | |____ ** __/ / ** / /__\ \ ** ___/ = / | | | | | | \_____| |___/ /________\ |____/ | || | | || | >>>> S A I L O R M O O N <<<< | || | | || | / || \________/ || \ / \ /-------------------------\ / __ __ \ | ^_^ You don't wanna | | / \ / \ | | know how much time I | | | | wasted on this banner! | | /\ | +-------------------------+ \ ___ / | PDP-11/83, 2M ECC RAM | \ \_/ / | 1 RL02, AND NO BACKUPS. | \__________________/ +-------------------------+ \ \_/ / | WIENERS DON'T DO DRUGS! | /____/ \____\ \-------------------------/ Ready SYSTAT RSTS V7.0-07 -USAGI CIRCUS- status at 05-Sep-99, 11:18 PM Up: 2:20 Job Who Where What Size State Run-Time Pri/RB RTS 1 [SELF] Det ERRCPY 5/31K SR 44.9 0/6 BASIC=20 2 [SELF] Det OPSRUN 16/31K SL 3.1 -8/6 BASIC=20 3 [SELF] Det QUMRUN 16/31K SL 3.2 0/6 BASIC=20 4 [SELF] Det BATIDL 13/31K SL 2.1 -8/6 BASIC=20 5 [SELF] KB0 SYSTAT 11/31K RN Lck 1.7 -8/6 BASIC=20 Busy Devices: None Disk Structure: Disk Open Free Cluster Errors Name Comments DL0 11 10986 2 0 BUNNY Pub, DLW Small=09Large=09Jobs=09Hung TTY's=09Errors 235=09 0=09 5/10=09 0=09=09 0 Run-Time Systems: Name=09Ext=09 Size=09Users=09Comments BASIC =09BAC=0914(16)K=09 5=09Perm, Addr:26, KBM, CSZ RT11 =09SAV=09 4(28)K=09 0=09Non-Res, KBM, CSZ, EMT:255 TECO =09TEC=09 8(24)K=09 0=09Non-Res Resident Libraries: None Message Receivers: Name=09Job=09Msgs=09Max=09Senders ERRLOG=09 1=09 0=0940=09Priv OPSER =09 2=09 0=0930=09Local QUEMAN=09 3=09 0=0960=09Local BA0SPL=09 4=09 0=09 5=09Priv Ready BYE Confirm: Y Saved all disk files; 6488 blocks in use Job 5 User 1,2 logged off KB0 at 05-Sep-99 11:18 PM 4 other users still logged in under this account System RSTS V7.0-07 -USAGI CIRCUS- Run time was 2.8 seconds Elapsed time was 1 minute Good evening ----- Daniel Seagraves | I'm an International Clandestine Arms Dealer! "In the name of the moon, will you punish me?" - Crayon Shin-Chan(?),SMS #1= 04 "There is nothing more dangerous than a resourceful idiot." - Dilbert "Who hired you guys, anyway?" -- 8-year-old Sailor Venus to the DiC SM VAs. SailorMoon Into Eternity! | Usagi's Stormtroopers Local #42 | 36 BITS 4EVER= ! From musicman38 at mindspring.com Mon Sep 6 00:12:59 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: ID this power supply ? References: <000d01bef81c$fced1080$203a8aca@primus.com.au> Message-ID: <37D34D5B.DFC361B4@mindspring.com> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 206 bytes Desc: Card for Phil Clayton Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990906/7f4be8fd/vcard.vcf From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Sep 6 05:45:43 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: Never Mind: MicroVAX 3 Message-ID: <990906064543.204000a9@trailing-edge.com> >I solved my problem. Moved the TQK50 to the next row after the RQDX3, >instead of beside it and it works fine. Don't quite understand that, since >I'm positive I had the RQDX3 and TQK50 in the exact same spot with the >KA650 board set as they'd been with the KA630 board set, and I saw it >working in that config. > >Does a system care if you've got a grant continuity board in a spot that >you shouldn't have a board? It seems to me that it should. Again, you aren't really giving us enough details (What backplane slots? Which backplane? Your previous message mentioned both a BA123 and a Sigma box, but I couldn't figure out which one you were trying to use the boards in. What else is in the system? What exactly was the problem? In your previous message you said "the problem was the TK50 controller", but I still haven't a clue what the symptoms were!) to answer your question, but if you draw out the arrangement of cards both "before" and "after" I'll take a shot! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Sep 6 08:35:49 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:11 2005 Subject: Never Mind: MicroVAX 3 Message-ID: <199909061335.JAA26424@world.std.com> Message-ID: Hermz, When you say that this is the original Compaq, do you mean that it is the Compaq Portable (suitcase-sized, 9" monitor) or the Compaq Deskpro (standard CPU box and external monitor)? If the latter, it's actually an 8086 box. It's scrupulously IBM-compatible, and will run any software than ran on the IBM PC. Performance is a little better than the original PC. The floppy disk drives are double-sided, double-density, and can hold 360K of data each. There is quite literally a mountain of DOS software that will run on this beastie. You can also run CP/M-86, UCDS P-System, and even Xenix (if you can find it). You can find more info on Compaq's web site. Here's the URL for the Deskpro: http://www.compaq.com/support/techpubs/qrg/Deskpro.html Enjoy! -- Bill On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Hermz wrote: > hello everyone. > > Hey all, just this weekend I went to a flea market and bought my 2nd "classic' > computer. It is the original Compaq, to my knowledge. I paid $10 for it. I would > like to find out more info about this thing, all I know its a 8088 machine (WP > says so) and it has a internal drive thats about 10MB in size and its got 2 5 > 1/4 drives, which are useless to me (my other 4 computers are macs) If you know > or know a site about this thing I would be thrilled. OH yeah, I also have a nice > Mac Plus system, decked in platinum, and all I need is that dern 20MB drive that > sits under it..but I tink I found one, unless one of you know where I could find > one for cheap > > TIA >
Hermz > ^^^^^^^^ > Is da man!!
> From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 6 11:34:04 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Never Mind: MicroVAX 3 In-Reply-To: <990906064543.204000a9@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: Tim Shoppa wrote: >Again, you aren't really giving us enough details (What backplane slots? >Which backplane? Your previous message mentioned both a BA123 and >a Sigma box, but I couldn't figure out which one you were trying to Oops, thought I'd mentioned that originally, this is the Sigma chassis for two reasons, it fits nicely in the bottom of a rack, and I'm saving the BA123 for a spare for my /73. Here is the original config, didn't work: KA650 ----- MS650 ----- MS650 ----- RQDX3 TQK50 -rest empty- This worked: KA650 ----- MS650 ----- MS650 ----- RQDX3 GRANT -rest empty- and this: KA650 ----- MS650 ----- MS650 ----- RQDX3 empty GRANT empty -rest empty- Final solution: KA650 ----- MS650 ----- MS650 ----- RQDX3 empty TQK50 empty -rest empty- >use the boards in. What else is in the system? What exactly was the problem? >In your previous message you said "the problem was the TK50 controller", but >I still haven't a clue what the symptoms were!) to answer your question, but >if you draw out the arrangement of cards both "before" and "after" I'll >take a shot! IIRC, the Diagnostic it stopped on was 34 (but might be off a few). Seem to work great this way, but it sounds like I should swap the RQDX3 and TQK50 from what Allison says. Do you happen to know the configuration of a Sigma Backplane? Somehow I suspect that would answer my questions. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Sep 6 11:55:48 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Never Mind: MicroVAX 3 Message-ID: <990906125548.20200137@trailing-edge.com> >Oops, thought I'd mentioned that originally, this is the Sigma chassis for >two reasons, it fits nicely in the bottom of a rack, and I'm saving the >BA123 for a spare for my /73. > >Here is the original config, didn't work: > >KA650 ----- >MS650 ----- >MS650 ----- >RQDX3 TQK50 >-rest empty- I *suspect* that the whole right-hand-side of the Sigma box is CD-only. The only way to tell for sure is to pull the backplane and trace it out. >This worked: >KA650 ----- >MS650 ----- >MS650 ----- >RQDX3 GRANT >-rest empty- > >and this: >KA650 ----- >MS650 ----- >MS650 ----- >RQDX3 empty >GRANT empty >-rest empty- > >Final solution: >KA650 ----- >MS650 ----- >MS650 ----- >RQDX3 empty >TQK50 empty >-rest empty- This confirms my suspicion that the Sigma backplane you have has CD slots all the way down the right side (though it's not conclusive; it might only be CD for the first four slots.) If, indeed, it is CD all the way down, then putting a TQK50 in next to a memory card there can heavily confuse the memory mapping and testing. >IIRC, the Diagnostic it stopped on was 34 (but might be off a few). Yes, the early tests are memory bus testing and sizing. > Seem >to work great this way, but it sounds like I should swap the RQDX3 and >TQK50 from what Allison says. Well, if you're playing fully by the DEC rules you should swap the cards, but both the RQDX3 and TQK50 are smart heavily buffered devices, and in such a tiny configuration as you have I doubt there'd be any differences seen at all. OTOH, if you have 3 Q-bus backplanes with dozens of "stupid" (unbuffered) cards in each, it does eliminate a lot of heartache to play by the rules! >Do you happen to know the configuration of a Sigma Backplane? Somehow I >suspect that would answer my questions. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 6 12:17:47 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Never Mind: MicroVAX 3 In-Reply-To: <990906125548.20200137@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: From cureau at centuryinter.net Mon Sep 6 12:27:19 1999 From: cureau at centuryinter.net (Chris Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: TK50 and stuck tape Message-ID: <37D3F976.53CA537B@centuryinter.net> Hi everyone... I was given a MicroVax II over the weekend...looks like it'll be something really interesting to work with once I get it running. :-) It's got a TK50 drive in it with a tape in the drive that won't come out. From what I remember of the TK50s, you push the red button in, wait for the green light to come on, and then pull the lever under the tape upwards to eject it. Unfortunately, I don't hear any tape noises at all from the unit, and the red light flashes very quickly. Green light never comes on. Any ideas on getting the tape out of the drive? Did I remember correctly how to eject the thing? Cheers, Chris From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Sep 6 12:47:12 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: TK50 and stuck tape Message-ID: <990906134712.20200141@trailing-edge.com> > I was given a MicroVax II over the weekend...looks like it'll be >something really interesting to work with once I get it running. :-) > It's got a TK50 drive in it with a tape in the drive that won't come >out. From what I remember of the TK50s, you push the red button in, >wait for the green light to come on, and then pull the lever under the >tape upwards to eject it. Unfortunately, I don't hear any tape noises >at all from the unit, and the red light flashes very quickly. Green >light never comes on. Any ideas on getting the tape out of the drive? >Did I remember correctly how to eject the thing? A blinking red light means that something is very wrong with the tape drive. There are several possibilities, including electronic failure and power supply failure, but the most likely case is that the take-up leader has come unhooked. You'll have to remove the drive from the enclosure and look inside the drive to figure out where to go from here. Some questions whose answers will determine what you'll have to do to fix this: 1. Is there much tape wound around the take-up reel? (You can remove the metal cover over the takeup reel by taking off three screws.) 2. If the answer to "1" is "No", trace out the plastic leader from the take-up hub and figure out where it's going (or not going!) Replacement leaders are only a buck from DECDirect. 3. If the answer to "1" is "Yes", apply power to the drive and see if any tape motion takes place. If you're lucky, it'll rewind the tape back into the cartridge. If you're not lucky, you'll have manually wind the tape back in (or just pull it out and trash the tape.) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cureau at centuryinter.net Mon Sep 6 13:17:22 1999 From: cureau at centuryinter.net (Chris Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: TK50 and stuck tape References: <990906134712.20200141@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <37D40532.61BB811F@centuryinter.net> An update, for the curious... ;-) > A blinking red light means that something is very wrong with the > tape drive. There are several possibilities, including electronic > failure and power supply failure, but the most likely case is that > the take-up leader has come unhooked. You'll have to remove the > drive from the enclosure and look inside the drive to figure out > where to go from here. > > Some questions whose answers will determine what you'll have to do > to fix this: > > 1. Is there much tape wound around the > take-up reel? (You can remove the metal cover over the takeup reel > by taking off three screws.) > > 2. If the answer to "1" is "No", trace out the plastic leader > from the take-up hub and figure out where it's going (or not > going!) Replacement leaders are only a buck from DECDirect. > > 3. If the answer to "1" is "Yes", apply power to the drive and see if > any tape motion takes place. If you're lucky, it'll rewind the tape > back into the cartridge. If you're not lucky, you'll have manually > wind the tape back in (or just pull it out and trash the tape.) There is plenty of tape around the reel in the drive, so I tried to apply power to see if it would rewind. The drive would wind for perhaps a second three times, then stop completely and flash the red light. Looks to me as if the motor isn't spinning properly...suggestions? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 6 12:22:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: evolution of misinformation (was: Computer Museum opens in In-Reply-To: from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Sep 5, 99 11:20:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 311 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990906/49cdf7d5/attachment.ksh From paul at jthm.org Mon Sep 6 13:39:46 1999 From: paul at jthm.org (paul yaskowski) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: vaxstation cdrom questions Message-ID: <19990906143946.A8652@jthm.org> hello, i have a vaxstation3100, not sure of the model, but it's rather large, with exposed drive bays and scsi cables leading to both. i have two sun cdroms that i'd like to install in it. my question stems from that, how the hell do i mount them in there? or, if you know they won't work, warn me now before i waste time with lots of duct tape installing them. ;> this is a little offtopic, but the cdroms and the vaxstation are all ancient. any help would be appreciated. -- "you is my elf-ho!!!" -- happy noodle boy From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Sep 6 13:39:11 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: TK50 and stuck tape Message-ID: <990906143911.20200141@trailing-edge.com> > There is plenty of tape around the reel in the drive, so I tried to apply >power to see if it would rewind. The drive would wind for perhaps a second >three times, then stop completely and flash the red light. Looks to me as if >the motor isn't spinning properly...suggestions? I suspect that one of the optical sensors is obscured by dust. If you've got a source of (clean!) compressed air, or a nitrogen cylinder around, try blowing out around: 1. The LED and photodiode that are on the "far" side of the head (the side towards the rear of the TK50). These detect "stripes" that are in the leader. 2. The LED and photodiode that are around the spindle on the far side of the head. This is a bit more complicated - you have to remove several screws, and it's probably best if you pull whatever tape remains before trying this. When you get the cover off you'll see the little rotational encoder wheel that the LED's shine through - make sure this is clean, too, but don't bend it! To pull the tape, pull back on the solenoid (right side of the drive, near the front), move the lever, and pull the cartridge out. Now pull all the tape out - preferably right into the garbage can! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Sep 6 13:42:12 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: vaxstation cdrom questions Message-ID: <990906144212.20200141@trailing-edge.com> > i have a vaxstation3100, not sure of the model, but it's rather >large, with exposed drive bays and scsi cables leading to both. i have >two sun cdroms that i'd like to install in it. my question stems from >that, how the hell do i mount them in there? or, if you know they >won't work, warn me now before i waste time with lots of duct tape >installing them. ;> > > this is a little offtopic, but the cdroms and the vaxstation are all >ancient. any help would be appreciated. (Assuming you've got a 3100 Model 40 - i.e. with the "double decker" drive trays and a 5.25" cutout): For testing purposes, just remove the escutcheon covering up an unused bay and set the drive in there. I'll have to poke around my model 40 and see if I can get you a part number for any mounting hardware you'll need to install it. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From paul at jthm.org Mon Sep 6 14:01:05 1999 From: paul at jthm.org (paul yaskowski) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: vaxstation cdrom questions In-Reply-To: <990906144212.20200141@trailing-edge.com> References: <990906144212.20200141@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <19990906150105.A8936@jthm.org> * CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) [09.06.99 14:52]: : (Assuming you've got a 3100 Model 40 - i.e. with the "double decker" : drive trays and a 5.25" cutout): : for some reason i think it's a model 30, but i'm not sure. it has a little that you push it and swing out to reveal two drive bays with the covers on. i measured both bays, and they're 6" across. : For testing purposes, just remove the escutcheon covering up an unused : bay and set the drive in there. I'll have to poke around my model 40 : and see if I can get you a part number for any mounting hardware : you'll need to install it. i'd appreciate that. :) -- "you is my elf-ho!!!" -- happy noodle boy From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon Sep 6 14:18:13 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: WTB: Kaypro 10 Message-ID: Hello all: Thanks to everyone who offered up their opinions about the "best" CP/M machine. After digesting the replies and doing a bit of homework, I've decided a Kaypro 10 would very well suit my needs. Anybody have one for sale? TIA, Glen Goodwin 0/0 From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Sep 6 14:30:19 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Never Mind: MicroVAX 3 References: Message-ID: <37D4164B.70136AA3@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > I solved my problem. Moved the TQK50 to the next row after the RQDX3, > instead of beside it and it works fine. Don't quite understand that, since > I'm positive I had the RQDX3 and TQK50 in the exact same spot with the > KA650 board set as they'd been with the KA630 board set, and I saw it > working in that config. > > Does a system care if you've got a grant continuity board in a spot that > you shouldn't have a board? It seems to me that it should. Jerome Fine replies: I saw some of the configurations and at first glance, it does seem as if the Sigma backplane is "ABCD" all the way. However, one method of testing that without taking any chances may be to add a few more boards to the "AB" side all the way down and see if they still function. If only the first 4 slots are "ABCD" and the 5th slot starts the "ABAB", then the second part of the 5th slot will require a bust grant to allow any interrupts to get to the CPU. If the 5th and 6th slots and both "ABCD", then putting a single bus grant card in the "AB" side of the 5th slot will allow the 6th slot to function. Suggestion: Put a bus grant card in the 5th "AB" slot and move the TK50 (or the RQDX3 - actually, I suggest it be the RQDX3 since you will not even be able to boot and you will find out immediately) down to the 6th slot. Tim, is this suggestion a safe way to find out? In general when doing such testing, look for a safe way to test so that if you are making an incorrect assumption, nothing will be damaged - it just will not work. If the first 6 slots are all "ABCD", then probably the rest are as well. If the Sigma box is running a uVAX II (or higher), I believe that "ABCD" slots are required for the CPU and the memory. Tim is that correct - I don't have any uVAX systems? But I do have ONE SMS Qbus box which I believe is "ABAB" starting with the first slot and ran a dual 11/73 with memory beside it - if I remember correctly. ALSO, I am about to try out (if I can get a degausser) some TK50 tapes in a TK70. But I want to be able to have both the TK50 and a TK70 tape drive on line. I have done a SYSGEN and the MUX.SYS device driver allows two devices, (MU0: and MU1:), but I don't have the dip switch settings for alternate CSR values. Can anyone help? PLEASE? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Sep 6 14:39:23 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Felt & Tarrant/Burroughs Adding Machine (fwd) Message-ID: Someone in the UK wants to give away a F&T adding machine. Please reply to the original sender. Reply-to: AH3WH@ah3wh.freeserve.co.uk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:01:12 -080 From: Alan Hardman Subject: Re: enquiry Dear reader, I have a Felt & Tarrant/Burrows adding machine. I am going to despose of it. Are you interested in taking it of my hands? If you are please inform me and to arrange a carrier to collect it. Yours sincerely, Alan Hardman. Ah3wh@ah3wh.freeserve.co.uk Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 6 15:51:20 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: evolution of misinformation (was: Computer Museum opens in In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > And maybe a vacuum sand recovery system for reuse? > > You have to have the recovery system in order to meet EPA standards --- you > > can't just blow all that sand out the back door, you know. After all, sand > > might pollute the environment ;>) > On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > Particularly if you live near the seaside ;-) OB_OT: State of Minnesota v Reserve Mining Corp. (dicharging wet rock on the shore of Lake Superior) A LOT of wet rock (67,000 tons per day), which in a few thousand years would make a 1% change in the lake size. The state felt that due to the larger mass, that it was more important than the lack of a working sewage treatment plant in Duluth. To the extent that the state misrepresented the data to close Reserve. The vacuum recovery system is also needed to reduce the amount of sand in the bearings, and sand being dragged over the surface by the heads. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Sep 6 15:52:26 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: TK50 and stuck tape In-Reply-To: <37D3F976.53CA537B@centuryinter.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990906135226.00993230@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 12:27 06-09-1999 -0500, you wrote: >Hi everyone... > > I was given a MicroVax II over the weekend...looks like it'll be >something really interesting to work with once I get it running. :-) MV-II's run NetBSD (a free Unix) pretty well. Visit www.netbsd.org for details. > It's got a TK50 drive in it with a tape in the drive that won't come >out. From what I remember of the TK50s, you push the red button in, >wait for the green light to come on, and then pull the lever under the >tape upwards to eject it. Unfortunately, I don't hear any tape noises Actually, that's backwards. The red button gets popped OUT to rewind and unload the tape. Once that cycle completes, the green light comes on and you can lift the handle. Others have already detailed the necessary steps for removing dud tapes. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Sep 6 16:00:34 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Never Mind: MicroVAX 3 Message-ID: <990906170034.20200141@trailing-edge.com> >ALSO, I am about to try out (if I can get a degausser) some TK50 tapes >in a TK70. But I want to be able to have both the TK50 and a TK70 >tape drive on line. You certainly can! > I have done a SYSGEN and the MUX.SYS device driver >allows two devices, (MU0: and MU1:), but I don't have the dip switch >settings for alternate CSR values. Can anyone help? PLEASE? On both the TQK50 and TQK70, the CSR is set by jumpers, not by DIPswitches. (the DIPswitches on a TK50 actually set the rev level reported by TMSCP inquiry commands, which changed more often than the CSR's at one point!) The default CSR is 774500. The CSR must be a multiple of 4, so the low two bits are always zero, and the CSR must be in the I/O page, so the high 5 bits are always on. The in-between bits are set with the jumpers near the edge connectors. Seen with the edge connectors to the bottom, the default looks like: XXXXXX (jumper in for CSR's starting with 77, jumper out for 76) XXXXXX \ | . . |- a "4" | . . / XXXXXX \ | . . |- a "5" | XXXXXX / . . \ | . . |- a "0" | . . / . . jumper in if last digit is "4", out if a "0". The "autoconfigure" CSR selection for a second TK50 in a system is 760404, though of course this moves around if you've got other second controllers in the systems, or a serial multiplexer, and of course RT-11 doesn't care a damn bit about autoconfigure rules as you've got to manually configure it anyway :-) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 6 16:01:08 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: evolution of misinformation (was: Computer Museum opens in San Diego In-Reply-To: <199909050547.WAA23167@saul4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I just watched a fun but somewhat silly program about Stonehenge, narrated by Leonard Nimoy. It was claimed that Stonehenge preceded the druids. If so, did the previous owners sandblast it to erase their data before they handed it over to the druids? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > > A display case shows the progression of storage disks, starting with > > > one from 1965 that's the size of a tractor-trailer tire. It held 2.5 > > > megabytes of data and had to be sandblasted to be erased. > > > Had to be sandblasted to be erased? Huh?? > > > Quite a while back, we discussed some systems for LONG-term data storage. > > Stonehenge was [jokingly] mentioned as being a hard-sectored long term > > data storage device. (probably stationary media with moving head) > > Assuming a high data density stored as surface markings or pitting, > > sandblasting WOULD be the needed method for erasing surface data. How > > long before our silly speculation finds its way into the computer > > histories, and later generations are told that the druids invented > > hard-sectored disks? > Well, you either want to prevent the correct information from disappearing, > or prevent the incorrect information from spreading. It's too late to > retract the joke, so you have to vigorously insist that it was a joke and > hope that your correction lasts longer than the joke itself. > > -- Derek From vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com Mon Sep 6 16:16:46 1999 From: vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm using a KA650 in a MicroVAX II cabinet w/no problems. I forget the magic name for it, it is the 1' x 2' x 2.5' cabinet on wheels. I just pulled the KA630 and RAM out, put the KA650 (w/ new RAM) in, plugged in the old cab kit and it ran fine (except having to recompile Ultrix to recognize the new CPU). The VMS FAQ says the same cab kit was used with the KA630, KA650, and KA655 boards. You did use the KA650 RAM didn't you? I believe the PMI connectors don't line up very well if you goof. I also recall something about a problem with certain older 3rd party boards. IIRC the QBus interface chip on the KA650 had a bug in it (that DEC refused to acknowledge... Deliberate bug perhaps) that caused problems with 3rd party boards, specifically the TSV05 tape controller, but might be more. But, to answer your question, no, I don't know of a writeup on the KA650 POST numbers... Sorry.... clint PS I have a working system here running Ultrix... If you want to send me your boards, I can swap them with mine and see if one is bad. On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've got a KA650 and RAM boards thanks to my last haul, I believe it's the > kind they sold to upgrade a MicroVAX II to a MicroVAX III. Anyway I'm > wondering if they needed their own Cab Kit, or can use the MV2 Cab Kit. > > I pulled the board set out of the BA123, and swapped it with a MV2 board > set in a Sigma Rack mount chassis, unfortunatly the system seems to be > having problems. Another thought would be the RQDX3 revision as I didn't > swap them. > > Also is there a writeup anywhere on what the various tests are as it counts > down? > > Zane > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | > | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > From black at gco.apana.org.au Mon Sep 6 08:07:53 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: ID this power supply ? References: <000d01bef81c$fced1080$203a8aca@primus.com.au> <37D34D5B.DFC361B4@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <002901bef8af$ced2cf80$a73786cb@primus.com.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil Clayton To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Monday, September 06, 1999 3:12 PM Subject: Re: ID this power supply ? This unit is for the Commodore VIC-20. The very first units shipped had Power Supplys in a metal case. They later went to a Plastic Case.. Hi Phil, 7 pins though ? all three of my Vic's have a two pin power connection. cheers, Lance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990906/42a43718/attachment.html From cureau at centuryinter.net Mon Sep 6 16:47:46 1999 From: cureau at centuryinter.net (Chris Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: TK50 and stuck tape References: <990906143911.20200141@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <37D43682.AEFF5503@centuryinter.net> > 1. The LED and photodiode that are on the "far" side of the head (the > side towards the rear of the TK50). These detect "stripes" that are in > the leader. I think I've found this pair...the whole wheel came out when unscrewed...connected to a plastic strip on the bottom. Cleaned this pair. And managed to get the tape out more or less intact. > 2. The LED and photodiode that are around the spindle on the far side > of the head. This is a bit more complicated - you have to remove > several screws, and it's probably best if you pull whatever tape remains > before trying this. When you get the cover off you'll see the little > rotational encoder wheel that the LED's shine through - make sure this > is clean, too, but don't bend it! Not sure about this one... > To pull the tape, pull back on the solenoid (right side of the drive, > near the front), move the lever, and pull the cartridge out. Now pull > all the tape out - preferably right into the garbage can! I take it you think the tape isn't worth feeding back through? Another curious thing...after I got the tape out, I tried to power the unit up again. Same thing happened...three short jerks on the spool, and then the flashing red light. I checked the phototransistor and LED...they seem to be aimed through the hole in the guide belt. Is it possible that one is not working? Cheers, Chris From hermz1 at earthlink.net Mon Sep 6 18:38:54 1999 From: hermz1 at earthlink.net (Hermz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Newbie member saying something!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199909062343.QAA23749@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Nope, it is the siutcase style machine, with a 8088 processor (I checked in wpinfo) Know where I can get any info on that?? On 9/6/99 at 10:05 AM, sheehan@switchboardmail.com (Bill Sheehan) wrote: > Hermz, > > When you say that this is the original Compaq, do you mean that it is the > Compaq Portable (suitcase-sized, 9" monitor) or the Compaq Deskpro > (standard CPU box and external monitor)? > > If the latter, it's actually an 8086 box. It's scrupulously > IBM-compatible, and will run any software than ran on the IBM PC. > Performance is a little better than the original PC. > > The floppy disk drives are double-sided, double-density, and can hold 360K > of data each. > > There is quite literally a mountain of DOS software that will run on this > beastie. You can also run CP/M-86, UCDS P-System, and even Xenix (if you > can find it). > > You can find more info on Compaq's web site. Here's the URL for the > Deskpro: http://www.compaq.com/support/techpubs/qrg/Deskpro.html > > Enjoy! > > -- Bill >
Hermz ^^^^^^^^ Is da man!!
From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Sep 6 19:57:04 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: TK50 and stuck tape In-Reply-To: <37D43682.AEFF5503@centuryinter.net> References: <990906143911.20200141@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990906175704.00994ea0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 16:47 06-09-1999 -0500, you wrote: >> To pull the tape, pull back on the solenoid (right side of the drive, >> near the front), move the lever, and pull the cartridge out. Now pull >> all the tape out - preferably right into the garbage can! > > I take it you think the tape isn't worth feeding back through? It's never a good idea to try reusing a TK50 cartridge that's been stuck and manually removed. Even if you get it out, God only knows where the tape will have been creased or crinkled, and that puts your data at risk. The same applies to almost any tape cartridge or reel, especially if it's been physically stressed. It's beginning to sound as though you have a bad drive, though. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon Sep 6 20:42:36 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 Message-ID: <582203e3.2505c78c@aol.com> Rich wrote: > I've got several Kaypro 10s over in Port Richey, Florida. Thanks for the reply, Rich. I'm sure we can work out a deal off-list, but since the answers to some my questions may be of help to others on the list, I'm posting those questions here. > Do you need a K10-83 or a K10-84? What is the difference in these two models? (83, 84 -- year of mfg., maybe??) > If your using it for anything/data your very fond of, I'd recommend finding a machine >that now has a replacement Seagate ST225 hard drive installed. Why? Is the original hard drive unreliable? What type of drive originally shipped with this system? MFM, like the 225? I have a hoard of 225s (pulled from old pc clones) so replacing the original drive shouldn't be too much of a hassle -- _if_ it's MFM and has a compatible controller. Also, I've seen a number of archive sites where CP/M software is available, as well as the "CP/M Disk," which claims to have over 18,000 files. How can I transfer CP/M files from my PC to a Kaypro? Thanks, Glen Goodwin 0/0 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Sep 6 20:53:41 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: VCF Announcement: Change of Speakers Message-ID: I'm sorry to report that Stan Veit and Curt Vendel will no longer be able to speak at VCF 3.0. I'm working on filling their spots with two new speakers, and will announce them as soon as they are located. It's not too late to save money by pre-registering for the VCF. For details, see http://www.vintage.org/vcf/register.htm. You can also still exhibit your computer and perhaps win the Best of Show ribbon at the VCF Exhibition. See http://www.vintage.org/vcf/exhibit.htm for details. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 6 20:58:00 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 In-Reply-To: <582203e3.2505c78c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > Also, I've seen a number of archive sites where CP/M software is available, > as well as the "CP/M Disk," which claims to have over 18,000 files. How can > I transfer CP/M files from my PC to a Kaypro? There is terminal emulation software available for the Kaypro that includes xmodem style file transfer. either through modems and a phone line, or a "null-modem" cable. You can upload files to a third party location, such as a shell account at your ISP, and then download with the Kaypro. There is software for the [DOUBLE SIDED] Kaypro to read PC 360K diskettes. There is software for PC to write Kaypro diskettes. There are many such programs, some shareware, some commercial. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From roblwill at usaor.net Tue Sep 7 00:00:18 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason (the General)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Need help to unsubscribe...... Message-ID: <01bef8ed$e1d19920$7e8ea6d1@the-general> Hi! I know this was probably mentioned before, but I must have deleted the message. How do I unsubscribe? I'm going to be switching ISP's, and I'll be resubscribing within a week or so after I get all my email software set up with the new ISP. ThAnX! ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From Mzthompson at aol.com Mon Sep 6 21:48:09 1999 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Compaq Portable III Floppy Drive Message-ID: I picked up a Compaq Portable III in a salvage lot. I had no problems with the machine until the 5 1/4" 1.2mb floppy apparently failed. If you attempt to read a disk, the disk is rendered entirely unusable, in fact you can not even reformat it in another machine. Knowing that it was unlikely that I would find another 5 1/4 drive, I decided to replace it with a 3 1/2" 1.44mb drive. I had to modify a pair of mounting rails to get the drive mounted correctly and fashion a piece of plastic to fill in the empty space around the drive, and it ended up looking pretty good physically. I booted the machine, it reported the difference in the drive, I ran the setup program and that all went well. Then it came time to read a disk the machine would not access the drive. When I grabbed a spare drive I happen to grab a Sony MFD-17W-50L. Believing that I might have grabbed a bad drive, I tried several other drives. I tried another Sony MFD-17W-50L, a Sony MFD-17W-5GD, a Newtronics/Mitsumi D359T3, and a TEAC FD-235HF. The results were that none of the Sony drives would work and the others worked fine. I checked the 5 1/4 drive and it was set for an ID of drive 1 as expected since there was the usual twist in part of the ribbon cable. The drives that worked were set to an ID of 1. One of the Sony's was set to an ID of 0, but I tried all ID's on the Sony's to no avail. I finally installed the TEAC drive and everythng is fine. I am curious as to why the Sony's would not work. Anybody got any insights, or had problems with Sony drives in other machines. TIA Mike Thompson From djenner at halcyon.com Mon Sep 6 22:09:58 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Compaq Portable III Floppy Drive References: Message-ID: <37D48205.8474B64F@halcyon.com> Mike, A while ago, I found a 3 1/2" drive for either a Compaq III or Compaq 386 to replace the 5 1/4" drive now in a machine. I found it complete with bezel, rails, power and signal conversion connectors. The drive is a Toshiba ND-3561GR. I haven't gotten around to trying it, so I don't know if it works. Dave Mzthompson@aol.com wrote: > > I picked up a Compaq Portable III in a salvage lot. I had no problems > with the machine until the 5 1/4" 1.2mb floppy apparently failed. > If you attempt to read a disk, the disk is rendered entirely unusable, > in fact you can not even reformat it in another machine. > > Knowing that it was unlikely that I would find another 5 1/4 drive, I > decided to replace it with a 3 1/2" 1.44mb drive. I had to modify a > pair of mounting rails to get the drive mounted correctly and fashion > a piece of plastic to fill in the empty space around the drive, and > it ended up looking pretty good physically. > > I booted the machine, it reported the difference in the drive, I ran > the setup program and that all went well. Then it came time to read > a disk the machine would not access the drive. > > When I grabbed a spare drive I happen to grab a Sony MFD-17W-50L. > Believing that I might have grabbed a bad drive, I tried several other > drives. I tried another Sony MFD-17W-50L, a Sony MFD-17W-5GD, > a Newtronics/Mitsumi D359T3, and a TEAC FD-235HF. The results were > that none of the Sony drives would work and the others worked fine. > > I checked the 5 1/4 drive and it was set for an ID of drive 1 as > expected since there was the usual twist in part of the ribbon cable. > The drives that worked were set to an ID of 1. One of the Sony's was > set to an ID of 0, but I tried all ID's on the Sony's to no avail. > > I finally installed the TEAC drive and everythng is fine. I am curious > as to why the Sony's would not work. Anybody got any insights, or had > problems with Sony drives in other machines. > > TIA > Mike Thompson From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Sep 6 22:30:26 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Aw, Gort... (Antique Roadshow) Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990906203026.0361cc94@agora.rdrop.com> Just what we needed... On tonights episode of 'Antique Roadshow' they did a brief insert on things that they consider will likely become collectable in the new century. Specifically they made reference to "examples of early computers and technology..." Just swell... B^{ A national jump into the mainstream! (sigh) And off we go! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon Sep 6 22:45:19 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 Message-ID: <1743c788.2505e44f@aol.com> Hello all: I inquired: > How can I transfer CP/M files from my PC to a Kaypro? Fred Cisin replied: > There is software for the [DOUBLE SIDED] Kaypro to read PC 360K diskettes. Cool -- I'm in the process of obtaining a K-10 and I assume it has double-sided drives. > There is software for PC to write Kaypro diskettes. There are many such > programs, some shareware, some commercial. Would you be so kind as to point a Kaypro novice in the direction of these programs? Thanks, Glen Goodwin 0/0 From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Sep 6 23:00:46 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Aw, Gort... (Antique Roadshow) Message-ID: <19990906.230102.125.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 20:30:26 -0700 James Willing writes: >Just what we needed... > >On tonights episode of 'Antique Roadshow' they did a brief insert on >things >that they consider will likely become collectable in the new century. > >Specifically they made reference to "examples of early computers and >technology..." > >Just swell... B^{ A national jump into the mainstream! (sigh) > >And off we go! It's the end of the world as we know it, (And I feel fine). ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 6 23:07:17 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 In-Reply-To: <1743c788.2505e44f@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > I inquired: > > How can I transfer CP/M files from my PC to a Kaypro? > Fred Cisin replied: > > There is software for the [DOUBLE SIDED] Kaypro to read PC 360K diskettes. > Cool -- I'm in the process of obtaining a K-10 and I assume it has > double-sided drives. I don't know where to find that software, but Don Maslin might know. MicroSolutions got their start making "Uniform" on the Kaypro. But they seem to have moved on and abandoned their roots. > > There is software for PC to write Kaypro diskettes. There are many such > > programs, some shareware, some commercial. > Would you be so kind as to point a Kaypro novice in the direction of these > programs? THAT's an easy one: http://www.xenosoft.com/xcflyer.html If you can find an old original copy of it somewhere, I'll upgrade for folks on this list for free, even from the unauthorized copies from a certain publisher. There exist a few others besides mine. 22Disk seems to be the primary one of the shareware (possibly on simtel?) -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From donm at cts.com Tue Sep 7 00:19:47 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 In-Reply-To: <1743c788.2505e44f@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > Hello all: > > I inquired: > > > How can I transfer CP/M files from my PC to a Kaypro? > > Fred Cisin replied: > > > There is software for the [DOUBLE SIDED] Kaypro to read PC 360K diskettes. > > Cool -- I'm in the process of obtaining a K-10 and I assume it has > double-sided drives. > > > There is software for PC to write Kaypro diskettes. There are many such > > programs, some shareware, some commercial. > > Would you be so kind as to point a Kaypro novice in the direction of these > programs? In order of preference, I would recommend 22DISK to read/write/format Kaypro (and many other CP/M disks) on a PC. It is available from the developer at www.sydex.com as a demo download. Registration brings the addition of many other CP/M machines as well. Next would be the software to read PC disks on the Kaypro. This tends to be slow and cannot handle PC directories. Last would be the communications package and a null modem. It works, but is REALLY slow! The hard drives in Kaypro 10s are likely to be most anything that is at least 10mb and has at least 4 heads, and 306 cylinders. Any ST-225 clone is a drop in replacement, but you get to use only 50% of the drive unless you get a third party ROM such as the TurboROM. TCJ has these and the relevant software. Given the choice, take the 10/84. It has somewhat improved graphics capability over the 10/83. Try to avoid the so-called U-ROM version, though. They were not the answer to a maiden's dreams as Kaypro hoped. - don From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Sep 5 04:41:33 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoffrey D. Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: End of Prodigy Classic References: <199909050031.RAA09284@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000001bef92a$5aa41d00$6d7d38cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Owad To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Sunday, 5 September 1999 11:00 Subject: End of Prodigy Classic > Prodigy discontinuing thier Prodigy Classic service on October 1. > a bank of outmoded minicomputers and mainframes Any idea what they are? I seem to recall that the original Compu$erve ran on Pr1mes of some kind, but no idea what Prodigy used. Vaxen? IBM 370's? > Is anybody going after those computers? Sounds like a very historically > significant groups of systems. I'd have to agree, hopefully they will find an honourable retirement with someone, a museum should be interested, given the significance of the service they ran. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Tue Sep 7 07:57:34 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: End of Prodigy Classic In-Reply-To: <000001bef92a$5aa41d00$6d7d38cb@helpdesk> from "Geoffrey D. Roberts" at "Sep 5, 1999 7:11:33 pm" Message-ID: <199909071258.IAA15382@pechter.dyndns.org> Geoff Roberts wrote: > From: Tom Owad > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Sent: Sunday, 5 September 1999 11:00 > Subject: End of Prodigy Classic > > > > Prodigy discontinuing thier Prodigy Classic service on October 1. > > > a bank of outmoded minicomputers and mainframes > > Any idea what they are? I seem to recall that the original Compu$erve ran > on Pr1mes of > some kind, but no idea what Prodigy used. Vaxen? IBM 370's? Actually, CompuServe ran on PDP-10 (DecSystem 10's) and System Concepts DecSystem 10 clones. Compuserve (which began as MicroNet) actually reengineered pieces of the 10 and designed their own switching power supply for KL-10's and rewrote a large part of the OS. Interestingly enough, they also let you get down to KL-10 timesharing level if you wanted to and they let you write your own programs to run on their machines. They also invented the Gif file and two protocols for file transfer over RS232 (CIS-A and CIS-B). The Source ran on Prime systems. Delphi (General Videotex?) ran on Vax 11/780's. I subscribed to all three at different times. > > Is anybody going after those computers? Sounds like a very historically > > significant groups of systems. > > I'd have to agree, hopefully they will find an honourable retirement with > someone, > a museum should be interested, given the significance of the service they > ran. Sounds reasonable. They probably will get scrapped, though. I figure they'll be Prime spare parts for folks still running Prime systems. Still better than gold scrap. > Cheers > > Geoff Roberts > Computer Systems Manager > Saint Mark's College > geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Sep 7 12:07:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: VCF Vendor Booths Still Available Message-ID: There are still vendor booths available at the Vintage Computer Festival. If you'd like more information, please visit: http://www.vintage.org/vcf/vendor.htm Only 3 more weeks until VCF 3.0! Got your travel plans in order? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 7 12:32:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Newbie member saying something!!! In-Reply-To: <199909062343.QAA23749@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> from "Hermz" at Sep 6, 99 06:38:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 658 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990907/75652b5a/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Tue Sep 7 14:51:51 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Newbie member saying something!!! In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Sep 7, 99 06:32:22 pm Message-ID: <199909071951.PAA14039@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2432 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990907/c6162297/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Sep 7 15:37:54 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Newbie member saying something!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The 8088 and 8086 are actually very similar processors. The main > difference is the external data bus width -- the 8086 has a 16 bit > external bus and the 8088 has an 8 bit external bus. I seem to remember > that the internal instruction queue is a different size on the 2 chips > but I would have to check. The 8086 prefetch que is 6 bytes and the 8088 is 4 bytes, this is to keep it from beating up the bus. > It is therefore difficult to tell the chips apart in software and a lot > of 'machine info' type utilities report finding an 8088 even on > 8086-based machines. Nearly impossible. the only test I know is to compare transfer speed to known clock. the 8086 comes up about 10-20% faster for a given clock and memory speed. Plugging in a V20 can fool that test (you can test for V20 instuction extensions for that). > IMHO the only reliable way to know what CPU you have is to read the > markings on the chip package. If they havent been sanded off or they are v20/V30s! Allison From owad at applefritter.com Tue Sep 7 16:38:13 1999 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: End of Prodigy Classic Message-ID: <199909072038.NAA01642@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >Any idea what they are? I seem to recall that the original Compu$erve ran >on Pr1mes of >some kind, but no idea what Prodigy used. Vaxen? IBM 370's? I sure don't know. To tell you the truth, I never even used Prodigy. Being a Mac user, the service didn't appeal to me - I signed up with AOL around 1990/91. And then I also ran a local BBS of my own for a little over two years. I recall talking to a somewhat distant relative a few years back who was involved with Prodigy. Even then he said how pitifully old systems were. Is the Apple II forum on AOL still around? When I quit the service (I think two years ago - just after the change over to AOL 3.0 and unlimited access) the forum was still around, but the message boards and chat were gone, and the software libraries were decaying. With AOL 3.0, the keyword "Apple II" (or was it "Apple II Forum"?) no longer worked, but instead a very long line of "http://" garbage was required. I was told that the Apple II forum was no longer being "supported" and that when the systems or hard drives died, they were simply thrown out, with no attempts to recover being made, and nothing backed up. This is why Tom Turley and company were making such an effort to back up the file libraries. Of course, this last bit is all according to Mr. Turley. Take it with however much salt you deem appropriate. >I'd have to agree, hopefully they will find an honourable retirement with >someone, >a museum should be interested, given the significance of the service they >ran. I wish I had the space for them. New York's not all that far, for me. :-) Tom Owad ---------------------------Applefritter--------------------------- Apple prototypes, Apple II & early Mac clones, and the Compubrick. ------------------------------------ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 7 15:49:43 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Differentiating chips (Was: Newbie member saying something!!! In-Reply-To: <199909071951.PAA14039@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote about using self-modifying code to check the size of the prefetch buffer to differentiate between 8086 and 8088. But does anyone have a good way to differentiate between 386SX and 386DX? Possibilities that come to mind include brute force speed comparison? Compare speed of moving data that is word v doubleword aligned? SX has 24 bit address bus, DX has 32 bits. Any easy way to test? From jim at calico.litterbox.com Tue Sep 7 15:55:56 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Differentiating chips (Was: Newbie member saying something!!! In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at Sep 07, 1999 01:49:43 PM Message-ID: <199909072055.OAA17690@calico.litterbox.com> > > On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote about using > self-modifying code to check the size of the prefetch buffer to > differentiate between 8086 and 8088. > > > But does anyone have a good way to differentiate between 386SX and 386DX? > > Possibilities that come to mind include brute force speed comparison? > Compare speed of moving data that is word v doubleword aligned? > SX has 24 bit address bus, DX has 32 bits. Any easy way to test? How about trying to select or write to memory addresses higher than 16mb, which was the maximum the 386sx could address? Or would that give you false positives for 386sx if you don't actually have more than 16 megs of RAM? -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From morrison at t-iii.com Tue Sep 7 16:06:02 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: End of Prodigy Classic Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601BAB10B@hobbit.t-iii.com> Compu$erve, now owned by AOL, is making it harder & harder for older owners to find what remains of the forums. You have to know which one you want, search won't find them now. Soon, no more ...... ???? Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Owad [SMTP:owad@applefritter.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 2:38 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: End of Prodigy Classic > > >Any idea what they are? I seem to recall that the original Compu$erve > ran > >on Pr1mes of > >some kind, but no idea what Prodigy used. Vaxen? IBM 370's? > > I sure don't know. To tell you the truth, I never even used Prodigy. > Being a Mac user, the service didn't appeal to me - I signed up with AOL > around 1990/91. And then I also ran a local BBS of my own for a little > over two years. I recall talking to a somewhat distant relative a few > years back who was involved with Prodigy. Even then he said how > pitifully old systems were. > > Is the Apple II forum on AOL still around? When I quit the service (I > think two years ago - just after the change over to AOL 3.0 and unlimited > access) the forum was still around, but the message boards and chat were > gone, and the software libraries were decaying. With AOL 3.0, the > keyword "Apple II" (or was it "Apple II Forum"?) no longer worked, but > instead a very long line of "http://" garbage was required. I was told > that the Apple II forum was no longer being "supported" and that when the > systems or hard drives died, they were simply thrown out, with no > attempts to recover being made, and nothing backed up. This is why Tom > Turley and company were making such an effort to back up the file > libraries. Of course, this last bit is all according to Mr. Turley. > Take it with however much salt you deem appropriate. > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Sep 7 15:58:32 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Newbie member saying something!!! In-Reply-To: <199909071951.PAA14039@armigeron.com> Message-ID: I don't think that works as the prefetch is coherent. To my experience the que was nearly transparent to programs and I never allowed for it presence not incurred any difficulty for that offense. It's fuzzy but branches and several other events dump the queue. Allison On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > > > > > > Nope, it is the siutcase style machine, with a 8088 processor (I checked in > > > > The 8088 and 8086 are actually very similar processors. The main > > difference is the external data bus width -- the 8086 has a 16 bit > > external bus and the 8088 has an 8 bit external bus. I seem to remember > > that the internal instruction queue is a different size on the 2 chips > > but I would have to check. > > 8086 has a 6-byte prefetch queue while the 8088 has a 4-byte prefetch > queue. I did a *lot* of 8088 assembly programming years ago. Possibly too > much 8-) > > > It is therefore difficult to tell the chips apart in software and a lot > > of 'machine info' type utilities report finding an 8088 even on > > 8086-based machines. > > I don't think it's that difficult. > > org 0100h > mov al,0 ;[1] > mov bx,offset jmp_point + 1 > > mov [bx],al ;[2] > nop ;[3] > nop > nop ;[5] > nop > jmp_point: jmps x86_chip ;[4] > > mov dx,offset t88_chip > jmps display > > x86_chip: mov dx,offset t86_chip > > display: mov ah,9 > int 21h > > t88_chip db 'Hi, we're an 8088!',13,10,'$' > t86_chip db 'Hi, we're an 8086!',13,10,'$' > > [1] We're going to change the offset of the jump at point [3] to > 0. On an 8088, this will take effect since the instruction will > not have been read in by the time we write the modification at > point [2]. On an 8086, the instruction at point [4] will already > be in the pre-fetch queue and won't be modified (well, it will be > modified in memory, but not in the pre-fetch queue). > > [2] This is a two byte instruction. After the primary byte is read, the > 8086 will be fetching the first byte of the instruction at point > [4], while on an 8088, it will be reading in the instruction at > point [5]. On the second byte, the 8086 will have finished reading > the JMP instruction, while the 8088 will read the next NOP. The > write back will happen at JMP_POINT+1, which the 8086 has already > read, while the 8088 has yet to read. > > [3] Filler space for the 8088 4-byte prefetch queue. > > [4] The instruction we're going to modify to determine if we're on an > 8086 or 8088. > > [5] See note [2]. > > > IMHO the only reliable way to know what CPU you have is to read the > > markings on the chip package. > > Ah, but a program will have a problem doing that. > > -spc (Note: this is untested code. Theoretically, it should work, but I > don't have an 8086 to test it on) > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Sep 7 16:14:52 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: End of Prodigy Classic Message-ID: <803be478.2506da4c@aol.com> In a message dated 9/7/99 4:41:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, owad@applefritter.com writes: > Is the Apple II forum on AOL still around? When I quit the service (I > think two years ago - just after the change over to AOL 3.0 and unlimited > access) the forum was still around, but the message boards and chat were > gone, and the software libraries were decaying. With AOL 3.0, the > keyword "Apple II" (or was it "Apple II Forum"?) no longer worked, but > instead a very long line of "http://" garbage was required. I was told > that the Apple II forum was no longer being "supported" and that when the > systems or hard drives died, they were simply thrown out, with no > attempts to recover being made, and nothing backed up. This is why Tom > Turley and company were making such an effort to back up the file > libraries. Of course, this last bit is all according to Mr. Turley. > Take it with however much salt you deem appropriate. supposedly the apple forums on aol are still accessable via http://something-or-other. you might want to check in comp.sys.apple2 as the address has been posted several times there. d From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 7 16:22:53 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:12 2005 Subject: Newbie member saying something!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > I don't think that works as the prefetch is coherent. To my experience > the que was nearly transparent to programs and I never allowed for it > presence not incurred any difficulty for that offense. It's fuzzy but > branches and several other events dump the queue. A variant of that code DOES work. Early versions of Xeno-Copy would run on 8088, but would NOT run on 8086. Inserting a few irrelevant or NOP instructions into the middle of the self-modifying code lenghtened the distance to work with the 8086 larger prefetch buffer. But a full fix can be done by putting in a JMP $+2 in between. Jumping to the next instruction wouldn't seem to do anything, but ANY jump flushes the prefetch buffer. Rather than a raw speed test, how about COMPARING the speed for moving a block of data that is word aligned v one that is not? On the 8088 (8 bit), there is no difference. But on the 8086 (16 bit), there is a quite measurable performance inmprovement for word aligned data. From wsmith at gj.com Tue Sep 7 16:54:59 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 Message-ID: >> Do you need a K10-83 or a K10-84? >What is the difference in these two models? (83, 84 -- year of mfg., maybe??) I didn't see a direct answer to this. Does anyone know? From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Tue Sep 7 13:13:35 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: Gem Desktop Message-ID: <199909072219.SAA24495@smtp.interlog.com> I was lucky enough to finally find a PCjr. today at the local thrift and picked up also a book of the type I usually disdain, "Introduction to Personal Computers" by Katherine Murray from Que/1990. In looking thru the book which is an excellent primer to newby collectors (it covers basics for DOS, Mac, AppleGS) I was struck again by the similarities of most of the GUIs. It had figs. from Mac, GS, and PCs. I'd never seen before the GS desktop. What struck me is the basic similarity. Having develloped my eye-teeth with Atari STs, altho I had a Pet and PCs before that, I am well acquainted with the GEM desktop. Despite the claims of Apple and the Palo Alto connection and the suit that wound up GEM on PCs and resulted in Windblows, I am unclear as to what the DI relationship was, why Atari was allowed to continue with it's GEM desktop, altho they stopped at GEM II, why GEOS on the C64 (C64 users compare before flaming me) and a multitude of systems and programs such as Ventura Publisher and PC Tools were allowed to continue with this supposed violation of supposed Apple copyright. DI of course continued for years issuing GEM-like GUIs and they are still available. ciao larry BTW Tim Olmsteads Unofficial CP/M home page has a lot of material. lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Vintage Computer Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Sep 7 17:34:17 1999 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: Speaking of CP/M... (Re: Best CP/M machine?) Message-ID: All, Mix software still has a web site at http://www.mixsoftware.com/. I don't know whether they would support CP/M or not. One might ask, and one might also suggest the possibility of classic-comp group buy for the CP/M edition if they could temporarily resurrect it. - Mark From DD950 at prodigy.net Tue Sep 7 18:08:37 1999 From: DD950 at prodigy.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 Message-ID: <001001bef985$ec0a09c0$5d61fea9@cel-366> From: Wayne Smith >>> Do you need a K10-83 or a K10-84? > >>What is the difference in these two models? (83, 84 -- year of mfg., maybe??) > >I didn't see a direct answer to this. Does anyone know? > > Truth is, as I remember buying a Kaypro in the Summer of 1984 in Los Angeles, nobody did really know what the difference was :-) Yes, that is 1983 or 1984. The year of manufacture. Things were changing fast. The Kaypro 84 added more graphics, (but you still had basically none) a 25 line screen, which there was scant use for, a double sided drive in the -10 and two of them in the 2, and more software, DbII was added to the list, and the newer version of cp/m. 2.2G or something. I think a 300 Bd modem was added to the -10 that year, but that won't help you now :] Something about another serial port added around that time I think also. The true techies here know more than I. There was something about a better ROM whatever, but that was mostly for the "graphics" as I remember and maybe the double sided 360 k disk drives. Somebody was selling one aftermarket anyway. I think you would want to stay with the -84 model if you want to get some work out of it. If your interested, I bought the "Business Pack" in July of 1984 Which included a remarked Brother daisy wheel printer and a KayPro 2X (2 double sided 360k drives) no modem, (couldn't imagine what I would do with that) all for only $1750. I thought it was the biggest bargain in the world watching WordStar spell check and print out my reports. Saved me days of work. I wore ear plugs while I printed out my work. Hope that helps, Jim, ??? ~ <---- KayPro graphics "You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat." -- Albert Einstein (When asked to describe radio) From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Sep 7 20:02:56 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: Differentiating chips (Was: Newbie member saying something!!! Message-ID: <199909080102.VAA18503@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > Isn't there a processor ID register in the 386 and up class? There wasn't a usable one at the time of the 386. I don't know whether it started with the 486 or Pentium. Somebody told me that many of the earlier processors loaded a register with their ID at power on, but then before I would be able to get to that, the POST wipes it. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Sep 7 21:19:59 1999 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: End of Prodigy Classic References: <199909071258.IAA15382@pechter.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <004801bef9a0$a899fc20$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Pechter To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Tuesday, 7 September 1999 10:27 Subject: Re: End of Prodigy Classic > Geoff Roberts wrote: > > > From: Tom Owad > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > > Sent: Sunday, 5 September 1999 11:00 > > Subject: End of Prodigy Classic > Actually, CompuServe ran on PDP-10 (DecSystem 10's) and System Concepts > DecSystem 10 clones. Oh, ok. > Interestingly enough, they also let you get down to KL-10 timesharing > level if you wanted to and they let you write your own programs > to run on their machines. Interesting. Can't see them allowing that these days. The world has changed.. > > They also invented the Gif file and two protocols for file transfer over > RS232 (CIS-A and CIS-B). Yep. knew that. > The Source ran on Prime systems. Ah, yes, it was them I misremembered. > Delphi (General Videotex?) ran on Vax 11/780's. heard of Delphi, that's about it. > They probably will get scrapped, though. I figure they'll be Prime > spare parts for folks still running Prime systems. Still better > than gold scrap. So it WAS Primes that ran/run Prodigy then? Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia. Email: geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au netcafe@pirie.mtx.net.au ICQ #: 1970476 From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Sep 7 22:15:24 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: 7900A drive: 1 , Me - 0 Message-ID: <004301bef9a8$6566a400$0101a8c0@jay> Here's another installment in the ongoing HP7900A drive saga (yes, it's a plea for advice and/or sympathy ) Installed new (refurbed) lower heads and new lower platter. Recleaned inside of drive. Powered up, put in new removable cartridge. Hit load switch and waited 25 seconds, then hit unload. Did this a few times (the blowers and drive spins up, but the heads don't load for 30 seconds - did this to get any remaining particles out). Removed cartridge, powered down, removed covers and reinspected everything inside. All looked well (including heads, which were fully retracted). So, this time I powered up and hit load. Waited 30 seconds, heard the heads move out to cylinder 0. Ran drive like this for about 3 minutes, no problem. Hit unload. When I removed the removable cartridge, I noticed the heads weren't quite retracted all the way. They were well off the media, but not all the way back home (the heads weren't touching each other, but they were close). Manually pushed the heads back, rechecked everything I could find. Repowered up the drive, after 30 seconds the heads loaded. Drive ready lite comes on and ran for about 15 minutes. No HDI sounds at all. I was elated. Hit unload, and after about 20 seconds heard very soft HDI. This time I left the cartridge in, powered everything off, removed the covers, and this time the heads weren't retracted at all. They were sitting right on the media. Strange thing is, there's no marks on the media, the lower heads I replaced look pristine, and the upper heads have only the very slightest indication of oxide. Gee - perhaps this is why the drive originally had a head crash before I got it? I've been through the "theory of operation" text and flowcharts. Several things confuse me. First, I thought that hitting the unload switch was pretty much of an immediate voice coil retraction - I didn't think this went through all the normal logic circuits. Second, the coil can't be completely shot I wouldn't think, because as I understand it the drive ready light won't even come on unless the positioner moves out to cyl 0 correctly. Before I replaced the heads and media, I don't THINK I had this problem, I think I would have noticed if the heads weren't retracting before. But, I can't imagine that anything I did related to replacing the lower head set and the lower platter would have anything to do with this. Input anyone????? TIA! Jay West From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Sep 7 22:53:23 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: 7900A drive: 1 , Me - 0 In-Reply-To: <004301bef9a8$6566a400$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990907205323.03439bf8@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:15 PM 09/07/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Here's another installment in the ongoing HP7900A drive saga (yes, it's a >plea for advice and/or sympathy ) >... >Hit unload, and after about 20 seconds heard very soft HDI. This time I left >the cartridge in, powered everything off, removed the covers, and this time >the heads weren't retracted at all. They were sitting right on the media. >Strange thing is, there's no marks on the media, the lower heads I replaced >look pristine, and the upper heads have only the very slightest indication >of oxide. >... >Gee - perhaps this is why the drive originally had a head crash before I got >it? I've been through the "theory of operation" text and flowcharts. Several >things confuse me. First, I thought that hitting the unload switch was >pretty much of an immediate voice coil retraction - I didn't think this went >through all the normal logic circuits. Second, the coil can't be completely >shot I wouldn't think, because as I understand it the drive ready light >won't even come on unless the positioner moves out to cyl 0 correctly. >Before I replaced the heads and media, I don't THINK I had this problem, I >think I would have noticed if the heads weren't retracting before. But, I >can't imagine that anything I did related to replacing the lower head set >and the lower platter would have anything to do with this. Input anyone????? Well... not having (personally) worked on the HP drives, but having done a fair deal of time on CDC cartridge drives which sound functionally similar, I'll offer a couple of thoughts... You are basically correct in your observation that 'head retract' does not usually go through the 'normal logic'. In the CDC drives at least, the head retract circuit is the same as the 'emergency' retract circuit (i.e. get the heads OFF in the event of a power failure). In brief, the circuit is this: Keeping in mind that it takes more force on the positioner to pull the heads back up the load/unload ramp, the standard drive circuit does not do it. When the drive is powered up, a relay is engaged which opens a circuit to the positional coil, allowing the normal drive circuit to function. When you hit unload, or the power fails, this relay drops out which connects a large(ish) capacitor (which has been charging all this time) to the coil, and WHOMP! You unload the heads! (the discharge rate of the 'cap also ensures that the coil does not bounce back off of the stops) Really! It is designed this way! So... (if the HP drive uses a similar system) you look for: An oddly out of place looking (heavier than the norm) cable coming to the positioner coil, a large(ish) relay with good sized contacts, and a large electrolytic (metal can) capacitor! These should all be connected together in a fairly logical fashion... A frequent cause of 'retract failure', especially after the unit has been aligned/serviced/ heads replaced, is the failure of the technician to reconnect the unload system! Also... burned relay contacts, bad relay, bad capacitor, failed charging circuit... It is actually part of the stated proceedure to disable the unload system when you are working on the unit, since there are a number of conditions that can trigger it (spindle speed fault, positioner overrun, off-track fault, etc...), and you only have to have your hand behind the head carriage ONCE (especially a large one like a CDC Phoenix) when that system triggers to ensure that you will NEVER do it again! (BTDT!) FWIW... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Sep 7 23:05:40 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 Message-ID: In a message dated 09/07/1999 1:20:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, donm@cts.com writes: > Given the choice, take the 10/84. It has somewhat improved graphics > capability over the 10/83. Try to avoid the so-called U-ROM version, > though. They were not the answer to a maiden's dreams as Kaypro hoped. How can I identify the "U-ROM version?" What are it's problems? Glen Goodwin 0/0 From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 8 00:23:45 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 In-Reply-To: <001001bef985$ec0a09c0$5d61fea9@cel-366> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Jim wrote: > From: Wayne Smith > > > >>> Do you need a K10-83 or a K10-84? > > > >>What is the difference in these two models? (83, 84 -- year of mfg., > maybe??) > > > >I didn't see a direct answer to this. Does anyone know? > > > > > > Truth is, as I remember buying a Kaypro in the Summer of 1984 in Los > Angeles, nobody did really know what the difference was :-) Yes, that is > 1983 or 1984. The year of manufacture. > > Things were changing fast. The Kaypro 84 added more graphics, (but you > still had basically none) a 25 line screen, which there was scant use for, a > double sided drive in the -10 and two of them in the 2, and more software, > DbII was added to the list, and the newer version of cp/m. 2.2G or > something. I think a 300 Bd modem was added to the -10 that year, but that > won't help you now :] Something about another serial port added around that > time I think also. > > The true techies here know more than I. There was something about a better > ROM whatever, but that was mostly for the "graphics" as I remember and maybe > the double sided 360 k disk drives. Somebody was selling one aftermarket > anyway. > > I think you would want to stay with the -84 model if you want to get some > work out of it. > > If your interested, I bought the "Business Pack" in July of 1984 Which > included a remarked Brother daisy wheel printer and a KayPro 2X (2 double > sided 360k drives) no modem, (couldn't imagine what I would do with that) > all for only $1750. I thought it was the biggest bargain in the world > watching WordStar spell check and print out my reports. Saved me days of > work. I wore ear plugs while I printed out my work. > > Hope that helps, > > Jim, As you say, things were changing fast. The 2X that I have came with both modem and Real Time Clock. IIRC, the RTC was a feature of the 10/84 also. - don From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 8 00:35:52 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Sep 1999 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 09/07/1999 1:20:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, donm@cts.com > writes: > > > Given the choice, take the 10/84. It has somewhat improved graphics > > capability over the 10/83. Try to avoid the so-called U-ROM version, > > though. They were not the answer to a maiden's dreams as Kaypro hoped. > > How can I identify the "U-ROM version?" What are it's problems? On powerup, it will display a legend on the screen that speaks to ROM 2.2U-1 - or something quite similar. They are not catastrophically wrong. Rather there are subtle differences that crop to bug you. The hard disk format is different from all other K10s which gets in the way of a TurboROM installation, for example. However, replacing the ROM makes them look like all the rest. - don From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Sep 8 01:42:44 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: 7900A drive: 1 , Me - 0 In-Reply-To: <004301bef9a8$6566a400$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990908014244.3d9fa4ba@mailhost.intellistar.net> Jay, This is just a shot in the dark but I used to work on large voice coil drives and they used a Saft NiCad battery to retract the heads. The %$^%&^% Saft batteries were no good and we often lost disks and heads due to them not retracting. In theory, the battery was there to supply power and retract the heads in case the drive lost AC power but they cut corners and also used it retract the heads even when AC power was still available. So much for theory! Look around carefully and see if it might have a battery or possible even a large capacitor in it and check it carefully. Joe At 10:15 PM 9/7/99 -0500, you wrote: >Here's another installment in the ongoing HP7900A drive saga (yes, it's a >plea for advice and/or sympathy ) > >Installed new (refurbed) lower heads and new lower platter. Recleaned inside >of drive. Powered up, put in new removable cartridge. Hit load switch and >waited 25 seconds, then hit unload. Did this a few times (the blowers and >drive spins up, but the heads don't load for 30 seconds - did this to get >any remaining particles out). Removed cartridge, powered down, removed >covers and reinspected everything inside. All looked well (including heads, >which were fully retracted). > >So, this time I powered up and hit load. Waited 30 seconds, heard the heads >move out to cylinder 0. Ran drive like this for about 3 minutes, no problem. >Hit unload. When I removed the removable cartridge, I noticed the heads >weren't quite retracted all the way. They were well off the media, but not >all the way back home (the heads weren't touching each other, but they were >close). Manually pushed the heads back, rechecked everything I could find. >Repowered up the drive, after 30 seconds the heads loaded. Drive ready lite >comes on and ran for about 15 minutes. No HDI sounds at all. I was elated. >Hit unload, and after about 20 seconds heard very soft HDI. This time I left >the cartridge in, powered everything off, removed the covers, and this time >the heads weren't retracted at all. They were sitting right on the media. >Strange thing is, there's no marks on the media, the lower heads I replaced >look pristine, and the upper heads have only the very slightest indication >of oxide. > >Gee - perhaps this is why the drive originally had a head crash before I got >it? I've been through the "theory of operation" text and flowcharts. Several >things confuse me. First, I thought that hitting the unload switch was >pretty much of an immediate voice coil retraction - I didn't think this went >through all the normal logic circuits. Second, the coil can't be completely >shot I wouldn't think, because as I understand it the drive ready light >won't even come on unless the positioner moves out to cyl 0 correctly. >Before I replaced the heads and media, I don't THINK I had this problem, I >think I would have noticed if the heads weren't retracting before. But, I >can't imagine that anything I did related to replacing the lower head set >and the lower platter would have anything to do with this. Input anyone????? > >TIA! > >Jay West > > From at258 at osfn.org Wed Sep 8 01:58:22 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: 7900A drive: 1 , Me - 0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990907205323.03439bf8@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: Jim, thanks for those comments. I have a Phoenix drive that has crashed and I've been thinking about trying to take a look at it. I've been following the 7900 thread especially to get an idea of what I might be in for. On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, James Willing wrote: > At 10:15 PM 09/07/1999 -0500, you wrote: > >Here's another installment in the ongoing HP7900A drive saga (yes, it's a > >plea for advice and/or sympathy ) > > >... > >Hit unload, and after about 20 seconds heard very soft HDI. This time I left > >the cartridge in, powered everything off, removed the covers, and this time > >the heads weren't retracted at all. They were sitting right on the media. > >Strange thing is, there's no marks on the media, the lower heads I replaced > >look pristine, and the upper heads have only the very slightest indication > >of oxide. > > >... > >Gee - perhaps this is why the drive originally had a head crash before I got > >it? I've been through the "theory of operation" text and flowcharts. Several > >things confuse me. First, I thought that hitting the unload switch was > >pretty much of an immediate voice coil retraction - I didn't think this went > >through all the normal logic circuits. Second, the coil can't be completely > >shot I wouldn't think, because as I understand it the drive ready light > >won't even come on unless the positioner moves out to cyl 0 correctly. > >Before I replaced the heads and media, I don't THINK I had this problem, I > >think I would have noticed if the heads weren't retracting before. But, I > >can't imagine that anything I did related to replacing the lower head set > >and the lower platter would have anything to do with this. Input anyone????? > > Well... not having (personally) worked on the HP drives, but having done a > fair deal of time on CDC cartridge drives which sound functionally similar, > I'll offer a couple of thoughts... > > You are basically correct in your observation that 'head retract' does not > usually go through the 'normal logic'. In the CDC drives at least, the > head retract circuit is the same as the 'emergency' retract circuit (i.e. > get the heads OFF in the event of a power failure). > > In brief, the circuit is this: > > Keeping in mind that it takes more force on the positioner to pull the > heads back up the load/unload ramp, the standard drive circuit does not do it. > > When the drive is powered up, a relay is engaged which opens a circuit to > the positional coil, allowing the normal drive circuit to function. > > When you hit unload, or the power fails, this relay drops out which > connects a large(ish) capacitor (which has been charging all this time) to > the coil, and WHOMP! You unload the heads! (the discharge rate of the > 'cap also ensures that the coil does not bounce back off of the stops) > > Really! It is designed this way! > > So... (if the HP drive uses a similar system) you look for: An oddly out > of place looking (heavier than the norm) cable coming to the positioner > coil, a large(ish) relay with good sized contacts, and a large electrolytic > (metal can) capacitor! > > These should all be connected together in a fairly logical fashion... > > A frequent cause of 'retract failure', especially after the unit has been > aligned/serviced/ heads replaced, is the failure of the technician to > reconnect the unload system! > > Also... burned relay contacts, bad relay, bad capacitor, failed charging > circuit... > > It is actually part of the stated proceedure to disable the unload system > when you are working on the unit, since there are a number of conditions > that can trigger it (spindle speed fault, positioner overrun, off-track > fault, etc...), and you only have to have your hand behind the head > carriage ONCE (especially a large one like a CDC Phoenix) when that system > triggers to ensure that you will NEVER do it again! (BTDT!) > > FWIW... > > -jim > > --- > jimw@computergarage.org > The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From hansp at digiweb.com Wed Sep 8 02:06:13 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: HP-71B manuals Message-ID: <37D60AE5.CF8001B4@digiweb.com> If anyone is interested in copies of the following manuals please contact me off list before the end of this week. HP-71 Hardware IDS HP-IL IDS volumes 1 and 2 Forth/Assembler IDS Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 8 03:12:06 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: HP-71B manuals In-Reply-To: <37D60AE5.CF8001B4@digiweb.com> (message from Hans B Pufal on Wed, 08 Sep 1999 09:06:13 +0200) References: <37D60AE5.CF8001B4@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <19990908081206.25144.qmail@brouhaha.com> From DD950 at prodigy.net Wed Sep 8 03:21:41 1999 From: DD950 at prodigy.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 Message-ID: <004201bef9d3$2eec3400$1fb3fea9@cel-366> -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin >As you say, things were changing fast. The 2X that I have came with both >modem and Real Time Clock. IIRC, the RTC was a feature of the 10/84 also. > > - don Yes, your 2X was (probably) originally a KayPro 4! The KayPro 4, now I remember, originally added a modem and clock and more software (dBaseII I think) to my cheaper original 2X. There was also a big thing being made about the "inverse video" in 1984, which made it easier to read the WordStar menus. I think the -84's all came with the new 360K double sided disc drives. The -83 mostly had the 180K single sided drives. Also, the 1984's were the first to come with WordStar and the other MicroPro software bundled. In 1983, they shipped with PerfectWriter or something like that. In July of 1984 I think I remember KayPro offered a KayPro 2, with 2 double sided 360K disc drives and PerfectWriter software at about $1200. Then the 2x, which added the Micropro software bundle (WordStar, DataStar, CalcStar, the graphics or inverse video display capabilities all for a song at about $1500. ( The IBM PC was about $2500 then and you needed a display and even had to purchase PC-Dos to go with it! KayPro was the first to bundle operating systems and software with any machines I think. Well, the Macintosh was out but it seemed to have severe memory shortage to me in 1984.) After the KayPro 2x in the line came the Kaypro 4-84 with the 300 Bd modem and dBaseII and something called a real time clock. That cost you close to $2000 and I decided to leave it. For $500 I would type in my own dates until I upgraded in 1993. I feel asleep once reading CompuServe at 300 Bd and decided to let the modem go also. (I had to buy a Hayes 300 a year later for $250 though.) Next came the KayPro 10 with a 10 Mb hard drive that I couldn't fathom anybody needing in 1984. Besides, a Kaypro 10 set you back almost $2800, most of that increase was for that hard drive. That line quickly was changed as the 4 became the 2x, and the 2x became the 2 again and they added a Kaypro 1 which only had one disk drive and a small amount of software. They all were really the same machine as far as I could tell. The differences only being the number of disk drives and the hard drive in the -10. I think the KayPro's were attractive to people like me as they came with all the operating software you needed. It was all in one box that was real easy to set up, and it worked. The price seemed cheap compared to what you got with the IBM's and Apples. At the time, if you bought an IBM or compatable, your second purchase was the operating system, MS or PC DOS, and then WordStar for about $200. I think KayPro's next machine was the 16, which was an IBM PC clone, in about the middle of 1985. I moved to Prescott, Arizona in 1988 and was surprised to see that there were still KayPro dealers selling the cp/m KayPro's in small town America. They had dissapeared off the shelves in Los Angeles long before then. It is interesting to see how much you can remember about these things. I might be wrong on some of it and would be interested in your corrections. Regards, Jim, Any so-called material thing that you want is merely a symbol: you want it not for itself, but because it will content your spirit for the moment. --Mark Twain From jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au Wed Sep 8 04:02:43 1999 From: jolminkh at nsw.bigpond.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: Gem Desktop Message-ID: <000d01bef9d8$e9d42840$f13dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> >desktop. Despite the claims of Apple and the Palo Alto connection >and the suit that wound up GEM on PCs and resulted in Windblows, >I am unclear as to what the DI relationship was, why Atari was >allowed to continue with it's GEM desktop, altho they stopped at I'm confused. I had assumed that GEM was simply renamed to Viewmax which was bundled with DR Dos. If there's differences I didn't spot them. Hans Olminkhof From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Sep 8 08:14:31 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 In-Reply-To: <004201bef9d3$2eec3400$1fb3fea9@cel-366> Message-ID: > After the KayPro 2x in the line came the Kaypro 4-84 with the 300 Bd modem These seemed to be the most common. However when ever asked my KayproII is an oddball. Apparently there lots of mods as mine has 2mb ramdisk, handyman roms and advent turborom plus the fron pannel from everyone I"ve spoken to is two HH drives vertical and acoording to some they should be horizontal. then the PC card is definately 4/84 but no modem or host interface, go figure. Runs good and with the tubrorom and the advent personality card inplace I have three drives, one 3.5" pulled from a ps2 internally, one 3.5" on the front pannel next to the native 360k 5.25" drive. The 3.5" drives using turborom get me 781k per drive and that's pretty roomy for CPM. > Next came the KayPro 10 with a 10 Mb hard drive that I couldn't fathom > anybody needing in 1984. Besides, a Kaypro 10 set you back almost $2800, > most of that increase was for that hard drive. By then my s100 crate was up to a pair of them! I have to agree I never figured I'd fill them but having everything on line was very handy. > I think the KayPro's were attractive to people like me as they came with all > the operating software you needed. It was all in one box that was real easy > to set up, and it worked. The price seemed cheap compared to what you got > with the IBM's and Apples. I got mine from the original owner with the printer and a full box of disks and manuals most original with the machine. > were still KayPro dealers selling the cp/m KayPro's in small town America. > They had dissapeared off the shelves in Los Angeles long before then. I've seen them in active use thorugh '95 becuase they worked and there was software for both PCs (to read the cpm disks) and the kaypro (to read 350k dos) disks! I still use mine along with my PX-8 as I have them and they work. Allison From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Wed Sep 8 10:31:17 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: Suggestions needed! I screwed up bigtime. Message-ID: <13481973312.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Okay, remember that PBX? I may lose it today. I dragged the thing in to work. But I forgot one minor thing: They don't want it there. So now, I have to move the thing out, and before I go home for the day. Trying to convince my boss to let me keep it here is a lost cause. My only two options are to get creative and find a way to save it fast, or to pull the cards out (Those have mercury in them), save the doco, and push it out by the dumpster & forgot I ever saw it. Obviously I'd hate having to do that. But I can't take it home with me (My parents already said no) and I can't get it back to SSI (The van I used before is no longer available) and I'm asking for suggestions. I'd really hate having to know that a perfectly good piece of gear is gonna have to be destroyed because of a stupid mistake on my part. Alternately: Anyone withing driving range of Peoria, IL want a PBX? ------- From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Sep 8 11:14:58 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: JTS hard drives In-Reply-To: <255e0502.25028718@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990908121458.009e28c0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jan133@aol.com may have mentioned these words: Sorry for the late intro to the thread -- been out of town for a week. >Both EPS and >JTS seem to be out of business. Hmmmmm... To bring this on topic, as JTS bought (and subsequently buried) Atari, I wonder what will happen to the Atari name, and/or their computer trademarks & whatnot... Just a (scary) thought... Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From DD950 at prodigy.net Wed Sep 8 12:31:10 1999 From: DD950 at prodigy.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 Message-ID: <008601befa1f$f25a7fe0$1fb3fea9@cel-366> -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com >These seemed to be the most common. However when ever asked my KayproII >is an oddball. Apparently there lots of mods as mine has 2mb ramdisk, >handyman roms and advent turborom plus the fron pannel from everyone I"ve >spoken to is two HH drives vertical and acoording to some they should be >horizontal. Yes, I remember some aftermarket companies selling their own version of the KayPro. I think I do remember one with vertical drives installed and whatever else they did under the hood. There were a few that managed to get four 1/2 height drives in there somehow. I remember you either bought a KayPro and sent it to them or bought one they had already modified. I think most of the mods eventually became model changes by KayPro such as the 1/2 height 360 K drives and a nifty little fold out rack on the bottom to hold the machine at the proper angle. At first you were supposed to sit the box on the back edge of the keyboard, but if it fell off while you were reading or writing a disk, big problems. What are you going to use the KayPro-10 for anyway in the 1999's ? I still have a Pakard Hell XT in my storage to figure out what to do with. Regards, Jim It's never wise to base a major buying decision on price alone--just ask a Yugo owner From ss at allegro.com Wed Sep 8 12:49:20 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: HP-71B manuals In-Reply-To: <37D60AE5.CF8001B4@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <199909081749.KAA28887@bart.allegro.com> Re: > HP-71 Hardware IDS > HP-IL IDS volumes 1 and 2 > Forth/Assembler IDS I mentioned to Hans that I'm interested in copies of the manuals. I'm also looking for Forth for my HP 71, if anyone wants to sell/trade. thanks, Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Sep 8 09:30:31 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: JTS hard drives In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990908121458.009e28c0@mail.30below.com> References: <255e0502.25028718@aol.com> Message-ID: <199909081836.OAA15079@smtp.interlog.com> On 8 Sep 99 at 12:14, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Jan133@aol.com may have mentioned these words: > > Sorry for the late intro to the thread -- been out of town for a week. > > >Both EPS and > >JTS seem to be out of business. > > Hmmmmm... To bring this on topic, as JTS bought (and subsequently buried) > Atari, I wonder what will happen to the Atari name, and/or their computer > trademarks & whatnot... > TMK JTS pieced out the Atari software to a major game company whose name escapes me. If JTS is indeed out of business, it would seem that the Tramiels, who received a big chunk of JTS in the JTS-Atari merger have perfected the art of winding up businesses - likely at a profit. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Vintage Computer Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 8 12:52:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: 7900A drive: 1 , Me - 0 In-Reply-To: <004301bef9a8$6566a400$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Sep 7, 99 10:15:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2305 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990908/c6c23035/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 8 14:28:02 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 In-Reply-To: <004201bef9d3$2eec3400$1fb3fea9@cel-366> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Jim wrote: I'll intersperse a few comments as I recall the facts differently. > Yes, your 2X was (probably) originally a KayPro 4! The KayPro 4, now I > remember, originally added a modem and clock and more software (dBaseII I > think) to my cheaper original 2X. There was also a big thing being made > about the "inverse video" in 1984, which made it easier to read the WordStar > menus. I think the -84's all came with the new 360K double sided disc > drives. The -83 mostly had the 180K single sided drives. Actually, the DS drives have always had a 390k capacity by virtue of using ten 512 byte sectors per track. Both the 4/83 and 10/83 were DS equipped. The II/2 was SS at 195k (nominal). > Also, the 1984's were the first to come with WordStar and the other MicroPro > software bundled. In 1983, they shipped with PerfectWriter or something > like that. In July of 1984 I think I remember KayPro offered a KayPro 2, > with 2 double sided 360K disc drives and PerfectWriter software at about > $1200. Yup! Perfect Calc/Filer/Writer, and The Word +. > Then the 2x, which added the Micropro software bundle (WordStar, DataStar, > CalcStar, the graphics or inverse video display capabilities all for a song > at about $1500. ( The IBM PC was about $2500 then and you needed a display > and even had to purchase PC-Dos to go with it! KayPro was the first to > bundle operating systems and software with any machines I think. Well, the > Macintosh was out but it seemed to have severe memory shortage to me in > 1984.) > > After the KayPro 2x in the line came the Kaypro 4-84 with the 300 Bd modem > and dBaseII and something called a real time clock. That cost you close to > $2000 and I decided to leave it. For $500 I would type in my own dates until > I upgraded in 1993. I feel asleep once reading CompuServe at 300 Bd and > decided to let the modem go also. (I had to buy a Hayes 300 a year later > for $250 though.) > > Next came the KayPro 10 with a 10 Mb hard drive that I couldn't fathom > anybody needing in 1984. Besides, a Kaypro 10 set you back almost $2800, > most of that increase was for that hard drive. > > That line quickly was changed as the 4 became the 2x, and the 2x became the > 2 again and they added a Kaypro 1 which only had one disk drive and a small > amount of software. They all were really the same machine as far as I could > tell. The differences only being the number of disk drives and the hard > drive in the -10. There were also 2/84s that were equipped with half high single sided drives - Newtronics, IIRC. Functionally, the motherboards of all of the n/84s were capable of being outfitted to acquire the capabilities of the most powerful(?) the K-10. The traces were all there and only required insertion of the components and change of ROM for HD capability. The one thing that I never comprehended, though, was why they continued to make two versions of the motherboard that differed only in the location of the RJ-11 jacks, as nearly as I can tell. The K-10 boards had them adjacent on the left back edge, while the rest were one on each end of the back edge. Seemed like a waste to produce both versions when using the same pattern for all would also have eliminated the different punchout requirements in the casees. > I think the KayPro's were attractive to people like me as they came with all > the operating software you needed. It was all in one box that was real easy > to set up, and it worked. The price seemed cheap compared to what you got > with the IBM's and Apples. > > At the time, if you bought an IBM or compatable, your second purchase was > the operating system, MS or PC DOS, and then WordStar for about $200. > > I think KayPro's next machine was the 16, which was an IBM PC clone, in > about the middle of 1985. Interesting, but never successful. Prior to that, however, were the Robie and the Kaypro 4X. The Robie which was known by some as Darth Vader's lunchbox utilized the Drivetec 192tpi drives that required pre-formatted diskettes with a recorded servo track. Their native capacity was about 2.8mb. Robies were not big sellers either, so the surplus Drivetec drives were installed in normal Kaypro boxes and labeled 4X with a quarter sized stick on label that said only 'X'. The major problem with the Drivetec equipped machines was that the diskettes were extremely susceptable to damage from dust or ???. > I moved to Prescott, Arizona in 1988 and was surprised to see that there > were still KayPro dealers selling the cp/m KayPro's in small town America. > They had dissapeared off the shelves in Los Angeles long before then. > > It is interesting to see how much you can remember about these things. I > might be wrong on some of it and would be interested in your corrections. I cannot speak to the prices, but I think that your figures are certainly in the ballpark. > Regards, > > Jim, > > Any so-called material thing that you want is merely a symbol: you want it > not for itself, but because it will content your spirit for the > moment. --Mark Twain - don From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 8 14:35:04 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Sep 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > After the KayPro 2x in the line came the Kaypro 4-84 with the 300 Bd modem > > These seemed to be the most common. However when ever asked my KayproII > is an oddball. Apparently there lots of mods as mine has 2mb ramdisk, > handyman roms and advent turborom plus the fron pannel from everyone I"ve > spoken to is two HH drives vertical and acoording to some they should be > horizontal. then the PC card is definately 4/84 but no modem or host > interface, go figure. Runs good and with the tubrorom and the advent > personality card inplace I have three drives, one 3.5" pulled from a ps2 > internally, one 3.5" on the front pannel next to the native 360k > 5.25" drive. The 3.5" drives using turborom get me 781k per drive and > that's pretty roomy for CPM. It is an oddball, Allison. IIRC, the Kaycomp - the prototype - had vertically oriented drives, but I'm sure they were full high. Also, the early IIs had a fixed power cord rather than the separate item that is now essentially generic. - don > > Next came the KayPro 10 with a 10 Mb hard drive that I couldn't fathom > > anybody needing in 1984. Besides, a Kaypro 10 set you back almost $2800, > > most of that increase was for that hard drive. > > By then my s100 crate was up to a pair of them! I have to agree I never > figured I'd fill them but having everything on line was very handy. > > > I think the KayPro's were attractive to people like me as they came with all > > the operating software you needed. It was all in one box that was real easy > > to set up, and it worked. The price seemed cheap compared to what you got > > with the IBM's and Apples. > > I got mine from the original owner with the printer and a full box of > disks and manuals most original with the machine. > > > were still KayPro dealers selling the cp/m KayPro's in small town America. > > They had dissapeared off the shelves in Los Angeles long before then. > > I've seen them in active use thorugh '95 becuase they worked and there was > software for both PCs (to read the cpm disks) and the kaypro (to read 350k > dos) disks! > > I still use mine along with my PX-8 as I have them and they work. > > Allison > > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 858-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Sep 8 15:36:03 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 In-Reply-To: <008601befa1f$f25a7fe0$1fb3fea9@cel-366> Message-ID: > I think most of the mods eventually became model changes by KayPro such as > the 1/2 height 360 K drives and a nifty little fold out rack on the bottom > to hold the machine at the proper angle. At first you were supposed to sit > the box on the back edge of the keyboard, but if it fell off while you were > reading or writing a disk, big problems. Mine has that, all the ones I've ever seens have that, I thought it was factory. > What are you going to use the KayPro-10 for anyway in the 1999's ? Runs most of my Xasms, a few engineering models I use and makes a dandy terminal. I presume you really wanted that from the original author. > I still have a Pakard Hell XT in my storage to figure out what to do with. Sheesh, it's a computer, compute with it! REally use it for text processing where a gui is not the not setup. Install Minix and learn about OSs. Allison From jlwest at tseinc.com Wed Sep 8 16:05:44 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: 7900A drive: 1 , Me - 0 Message-ID: <007101befa3d$eaae67c0$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> You wrote... ----->Almost all drives have an 'emergency retract' which is activated if the >power fails while the heads are loaded. Typically, this consists of a >relay that drops out when the power fails that then connects a large >capacitor, or more often a NiCd battery, to the voice coil. The head is >rammed against the outer end stop, where it opens a microswitch, >disconnecting the battery. Yes, the power board does have a set of 3 nicads on it, and they are definitely for retracting the heads in the event of a loss of AC power. >Since this involves somewhat violent head movements, which are not good >for the heads (or, indeed, for the positioner), many drives _don't_ use >this to retract the heads on a normal unload. Instead they use the normal >servo system. Certainly the DEC RK05 does this (I have just looked in the >manual). I haven't checked the schematics myself definitively, but, I heard from one repair guy that it does not use the nicads for a normal unload, just for a power fail unload. >If it uses the servo system, first check the power supply voltages. Loss >of one rail to the servo amplifier may mean the heads can move in one >direction but not in the other. Then, insert a pack, spin up, with the >covers removed. When the heads load, try to (gently) move them. They >should appear to be locked over track 0 -- if the heads move slightly >off-track, the servo system should pass a current through the voice coil >to try to move them back. If there's a problem with the servo, you might >find that the servo can move the heads towards the spindle (i.e. >attmepting to force them away from the spindle has no effect) but that it >can't move them away from the spindle (and thus if _you_ try to move them >towards the spindle, it doesn't resist). Now THAT's handy info. Thanks! I'll give that a shot tonight or tomorrow. THANKS! Jay West From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Sep 8 18:54:56 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:13 2005 Subject: 7900A drive: 1 , Me - 0 In-Reply-To: <007101befa3d$eaae67c0$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990908185456.234feb6e@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 04:05 PM 9/8/99 -0500, you wrote: >You wrote... >----->Almost all drives have an 'emergency retract' which is activated if >the >>power fails while the heads are loaded. Typically, this consists of a >>relay that drops out when the power fails that then connects a large >>capacitor, or more often a NiCd battery, to the voice coil. The head is >>rammed against the outer end stop, where it opens a microswitch, >>disconnecting the battery. > > >Yes, the power board does have a set of 3 nicads on it, and they are >definitely for retracting the heads in the event of a loss of AC power. > >>Since this involves somewhat violent head movements, which are not good >>for the heads (or, indeed, for the positioner), many drives _don't_ use >>this to retract the heads on a normal unload. Instead they use the normal >>servo system. Certainly the DEC RK05 does this (I have just looked in the >>manual). > > >I haven't checked the schematics myself definitively, but, I heard from one >repair guy that it does not use the nicads for a normal unload, just for a >power fail unload. Even if that's true, there should be no way that the drive will spin down with the heads still loaded. Even if the normal parking circuit fails, the underspeed detection should trigger the emergency retract. Check out that emergency retract circuit closely, it wasn't put there for nothing. It's proper operation is critical to the survival of the drive. The drives that I worked on had a wire-OR circuit with four diodes to monitor four conditions that would cause an emergency retract. Power fail (5V logic power, I think) and underspeed were two of the conditions. As a suggestion, do you have a scrap disk that you can take the platter off of and run the hub by itself? You could run it and watch what happens without worrying about damaging the heads. Tony is right, your voice coil sounds like it's ok since it will load the heads. You should be able to check it's ability to retract by pushing it further in and it should retract to it's correct position. It should react fast enough that you can't move it before it senses the error and returns to the correct position. If it moves and doesn't return then you have a problem. The drives often use + and - power supplies to supply power for seek and retract. You may have a bad power supply or it may have a bad transistor or whatever they use to switch the power to the voice coil. Attempting to force it past it normal position should detect such problems. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 8 17:34:13 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: 7900A drive: 1 , Me - 0 In-Reply-To: <007101befa3d$eaae67c0$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> from "Jay West" at Sep 8, 99 04:05:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2123 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990908/0853f3a2/attachment.ksh From jlwest at tseinc.com Wed Sep 8 18:08:56 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: 7900A drive: 1 , Me - 0 Message-ID: <000801befa4f$216e7500$0101a8c0@jay> Thanks Tony and Joe! Just before dinner I powered up the drive again. After the 30second spinup, the heads move out to cylinder 0 and the drive ready light comes on. I tried very gently moving the head assembly both forward and back. The thing wouldn't even think about moving. I applied more pressure (a pretty fair amount IMHO), and the head assembly still won't budge at all. I hit the unload switch and the drive starts to brake, but the heads don't retract. I immediately move the heads back manually and all is well (at least no further HDI). After dinner I'll start double checking the power supply voltages. Thanks for any and all input! Jay West From Glenatacme at aol.com Wed Sep 8 18:37:42 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 Message-ID: <3892d33b.25084d46@aol.com> Jim wrote: << > What are you going to use the KayPro-10 for anyway in the 1999's ? Allison Parent replied: > Runs most of my Xasms, a few engineering models I use and makes a dandy > terminal. > I presume you really wanted that from the original author. As mentioned when I started this thread, I have no direct experience with CP/M based machines and am interested in checking out the territory, so to speak ;>) Jim wrote: > I still have a Pakard Hell XT in my storage to figure out what to do with. Allison replied: > Sheesh, it's a computer, compute with it! REally use it for text > processing where a gui is not the not setup. Install Minix and learn > about OSs. >> Right on, Allison! Seems to me you can learn _something_ potentially useful from just about any type of computer. It's also not hard to find some useful function for a given piece of hardware. Someone dumped a 286 & 12" green mono monitor at our store a few years back. Instead of throwing it out, I spent a couple of afternoons patching together some C code, a few batch files, and some other odds & ends and it's served us well as our cash register ever since. It also cranks out our monthly state sales tax report, and maintains our customer database. 52 MB hard drive, 24 MB free -- I imagine we'll be using it every day for years to come. Cost: $0. I even have a couple of business apps (Tony Duell, don't gag ;>) which I run on my Sinclair machines . . . just crank up the old imagination, Jim, and surely you'll come up with some good use for that old "clunker." Glen Goodwin 0/0 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 8 18:39:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: 7900A drive: 1 , Me - 0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990908185456.234feb6e@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Sep 8, 99 06:54:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1692 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990909/bd406d9c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 8 18:41:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: 7900A drive: 1 , Me - 0 In-Reply-To: <000801befa4f$216e7500$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Sep 8, 99 06:08:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1204 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990909/2bccdbfa/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 8 18:48:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 In-Reply-To: <3892d33b.25084d46@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Sep 8, 99 07:37:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1371 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990909/b876827f/attachment.ksh From Glenatacme at aol.com Wed Sep 8 19:38:36 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 Message-ID: <1d515709.25085b8c@aol.com> I wrote: << > I even have a couple of business apps (Tony Duell, don't gag ;>) which I run > on my Sinclair machines . . . just crank up the old imagination, Jim, and Tony Duell replied: > Hmmm... Sinclair microdrives were known for being WORN (write once, read > never) units, so I do have problems trying to run a business from one of > those machines. Oh well... >> Not a _business_, but a couple of non-critical business apps. And, yes, the microdrives are horribly unreliable. I'm using a third-party drive i/f and a DSDD 5.25" drive for storage. The i/f was developed (and is still supported!) by a fellow here in the States. I get 450 KB out of each diskette, which suits my needs ;>) Glen Goodwin 0/0 From jlwest at tseinc.com Wed Sep 8 19:56:30 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: 7900A drive: 1 , Me - 1/2 Message-ID: <002301befa5e$287cf420$0101a8c0@jay> The score narrows, but I can't claim a complete victory.... Tony wrote... >Well, if the servo can lock the heads in both directions, then the power >rails are probably OK (although it can't hurt to check them). Your next >job (and I can't help here as I don't have the schematics) is to figure >out how it unloads the heads (where does it apply the unload signal, what >causes it, etc) and then to check through the electronics. It's not that >complex. I went through the schematics, concentrating on the PMR board (Power regulator) and Drive control board. Not in great detail, but just enough to get a general gist of the sequence of events and "who does what". I then went down and checked the disc power supply (it's a separate rackmount unit). Then before starting to follow traces and wires I decided to pull all the connections from the rest of the system to the PMR board. I was specifically looking for wires that had come loose, or pins that weren't pushed all the way in the connector, etc. Double checked that my hand written labels on the connectors (done before removing them) showed that all the connectors were back in the right place. Powered the drive up - heads seeked and drive ready came on. Hit the unload switch, and the heads immediately retracted and the brake engaged. Did this about 10 times in a row, every time the heads retracted nicely just like they're supposed to. Hummm... this leads me to one of two possible conclusions: A) there was just a loose connector, or B) this is a total co-incidence that it started working and the problem might very easily happen again. Now that it's working, further troubleshooting to be sure of the exact cause is not easy. I Know I had all the connectors pushed down firm and in the correct place before, but, it does work now (at least 10 times anyway, my luck the 11th time would have been the failure). Followup questions: 1) The drive innards are dusty again, must be the environment (or running with the covers removed didn't help I guess). What is the best way to get all the dust out? Canned air doesn't begin to get the dust off the plastic surfaces, neither does a DP-style vacuum. Any tips/tricks anyone would care to pass on? 2) From the previous spin-down with the heads on the platter, the bottom heads are mint but the top heads now have oxide streaks on them. Cleaning with foam qtips and IPA doesn't budge any of it. I am loath to take out the top heads (removable platter) and send them out for recontouring and test-fly because then the drive will need to be re-aligned and I don't have an alignment cartridge (and probably the know-how) to realign them. This is only important because I have a diagnostic cartridge that I need to be able to read for additional cpu/disk/tape diagnostics on down the road. Is it the general consensus that heads in this condition are ok to use or am I setting myself up for a major problem. What I'm hoping is on down the road to get the diagnostics copied from cartridge to 1/2 tape. Then I can send the heads off and not bother with re-alignment (other than having to reformat my cartridges and lay data from tape back down. Bad idea? Thanks! Jay West From dastar at ncal.verio.com Wed Sep 8 20:24:51 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: VCF Exhibitor List (current as of 9/8/99) Message-ID: Here are the current exhibitors at VCF 3.0: Charles Notley Shift Reset - Heathkit H89 Doug Salot Early Toy Computers david dameron Conway's Game of Life Wayne M. IBM 5100 Model B2 and Peripherals Dwight Elvey 4004 Developement System Dwight Elvey Single Plywood Board Computer Tom Belpasso First CMOS uP with homebrew FORTH Jim Willing PDP-8/e - EDUSystem 25 TimeShared BASIC Jim Willing Altair 8800 - MITS TimeShared BASIC Jim Willing Heathkit Educational RObots Mike McManus Osborne Shelly John G. MUNIAC Hans Franke Der Sozialismus ist unaufhaltsamm Michael Kan Real-Time Software Bench Testing environment Liza Loop The First Apple I and Other Highlights of Early Microcomuputers in Learning Environments Jordan Ruderman Exhibit - Sol Jordan Ruderman Sorcerer Jordan Ruderman Osborne III Derek Peschel Marchant model ACR8M calculator Larry Commodore PET 2001 What will YOU be bringing to exhibit? http://www.vintage.org/vcf/exhibit.htm Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Sep 8 21:13:55 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 Message-ID: <199909090213.WAA18127@world.std.com> ) which I ru References: <19990902225206Z13255-24908+118@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: At 03:58 PM 9/2/99 -0700, you wrote: ... > And was not the ATT/Bell System Relay Comuter bi-quinary? ... Wouldn't know, but the IBM 1401 and 1410 were. But binary was still involved, of course. The binary part was (duh) binary. And the quinary part was a binary representation as well. The 1410 also used a two- of-five code for the address regster digits, but even that was 5 bits of -- yup -- binary. It is hard to do much else with switches after all... 8-) Jay > Cheers > >John > > > PS WOFM = Write Once Forget Many > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection Jay.Jaeger@msn.fullfeed.com visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube From cube at msn.fullfeed.com Sun Sep 5 22:37:49 1999 From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: non-binary computers? In-Reply-To: <37CF1536.95CBCFDD@halcyon.com> References: <19990902221048Z13255-24908+106@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: Really, only the _normalization_. It was quantized at 4 bits. The number itself was binary of course (hex being 4 bits). Jay At 05:24 PM 9/2/99 -0700, you wrote: >The IBM 360 series was a "hexadecimal" machine. The result was that >you got one or more fewer decimal digits of precision for floating >point numbers as opposed to a binary machine. The CDC series of >3xxx/6xxx was a favorite of scientifically oriented users due to >this fact, and many computer centers were CDC instead of IBM at the >time. (There was a difference in word length, too, but many users >didn't realize that you could get better precision on a PDP-11 >than on a 360 in single precision.) > >The ultimate, of course, is the UNARY computer. If you look in the >"Feynman Lectures on Computation", Richard Feynman, 1996, you'll see >that he has you start designing a unary computer. Maybe not so easy >when all you have to work with is "1"! (It has to have a variable >word length, of course). > >Dave > >Mark Green wrote: >> >> > I recall reading an article a while back about the possibility of >> > building computers based on a number system other than two (octal, IIRC). >> > If memory serves me right, it was found possible to do, but not >> > practical and less efficient than binary. >> > >> > I now have need for some basic information on the possibility of >> > non-binary computers, but am unable to find anything. Can anybody point >> > me in the direction of some info? >> > >> >> A number of early small computers were non-binary. One that comes >> to mind is the IBM 1620 which was a decimal variable word lenght >> machine. The 1620 was in production about 40 years ago and was >> mainly marketed as a business machine. One of the interesting >> features of this machine was that it did all its arthmetic by >> table lookup. The tables were stored in memory, so you could change >> how the operations worked! A number of 1620s were used by universities >> into the late 1960s. Since they were variable word length, they >> were very nice for doing precise computations. >> >> Since early computers were based on analogue electronics it was >> much easier to do non-binary than it is now. Many early memory >> devices (except core) were really analogue devices with thresholds >> used to distinguish 0 and 1. You just needed to add a few more >> thresholds to get a larger range. >> >> -- >> Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca >> Professor (780) 492-4584 >> Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) >> Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) >> University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection Jay.Jaeger@msn.fullfeed.com visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube From a2k at one.net Wed Sep 8 19:20:05 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: PDP-11/23 on ebay Message-ID: Working PDP-11 with MSV11-PL, DLV11-J4, and DZV114. Currently $310.00 At least it's not entitled "L@@K! UBER-BUSTER L33T PUT3R". Hopefully somebody will save this thing. Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's you isn't it? THE BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL!" "In the flesh, on the phone and in your account..." -- BOFH #3 From Glenatacme at aol.com Wed Sep 8 22:55:40 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: Kaypro 10 Message-ID: In a message dated 09/08/1999 10:16:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, allisonp@world.std.com writes: > Oh, I forgot one. There's a program called "checks" that can be found on > the WC CDrom and the OAK.oakland.edu archives. Runs nicely on the kaypro. > Theres a lot of messydos and CPM software out there in the archives waiting > to be used. Thanks for pointing me to this site! This is going to keep me off the streets and out of trouble for a *long* time! Glen Goodwin 0/0 From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Sep 8 23:35:54 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: Xerox 8010 Floppies Available Message-ID: <19990908.233554.253.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: I just got a stack of software for the Xerox 8010. It is the Viewpoint O/S (v.2.0), office productivity tools, fonts, converters, etc. Six boxes of 8" floppies. This includes what appears to be the install disk set for the VP O/S itself. If interested, please send offers via private E-Mail. Thanks. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 8 23:58:16 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: Xerox 8010 Floppies Available In-Reply-To: <19990908.233554.253.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> References: <19990908.233554.253.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <19990909045816.32376.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jeff wrote: > I just got a stack of software for the Xerox 8010. > It is the Viewpoint O/S (v.2.0), office productivity > tools, fonts, converters, etc. Six boxes of > 8" floppies. This includes what appears to be > the install disk set for the VP O/S itself. A word of warning. Al Kossow informs me that when this software is installed on a particular 8010, it keys itself to that machine's Ethernet address, so it can't be used on a different 8010. From jritorto at nut.net Thu Sep 9 14:17:02 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: therac-25 Message-ID: I found myself in the mood for revisiting the macabre side of classic computing and decided to search for Therac stuff. See: http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/~adamd/essays/rts3.html Now it seems to me that the fellow who wrote this article was pretty full of it. If you can get past his overuse of passive voice and continual nominalization, you may note that many of his points are far too theoretical and not supported by direct observation, knowledge, etc. For example, he claims that this [perhaps] regenned rt11 monitor supports multi-threaded execution to the degree of its enabling things like race conditions, etc. Hindsight is 20/20, I guess... just throwing it out there as discussion bait... jake From max82 at surfree.com Thu Sep 9 14:43:20 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: VCF Exhibitor List (current as of 9/8/99) Message-ID: <002001befafb$94a48da0$0301a8c0@surfree.surfree.com> Wasn't somebody going to network a bunch of C-64s? What happened to this? Didn't it work out? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Sep 9 16:21:42 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: 7900A drive: 1 , Me - 0 In-Reply-To: <000801befa4f$216e7500$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990909162142.3e2fadac@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:08 PM 9/8/99 -0500, you wrote: >Thanks Tony and Joe! > >Just before dinner I powered up the drive again. After the 30second spinup, >the heads move out to cylinder 0 and the drive ready light comes on. > >I tried very gently moving the head assembly both forward and back. The >thing wouldn't even think about moving. I applied more pressure (a pretty >fair amount IMHO), and the head assembly still won't budge at all. That sounds right. I'm sure your power supply and voice coil are good. I hit the >unload switch and the drive starts to brake, but the heads don't retract. Very strange. The only thing I can figure is that it uses the battery to retract the heads even for normal operation and that the battery is shot or there's an open circuit somewhere. You might try hooking a meter to the battery and watching it while doing the same operation and see if the battery is OK. But it's usually easy to tell when one is bad. You might also look for a relay that opens or closes to supply retract power when you press the unload switch and try to trace the source of the retract power back from there. You may find that it's something as simple as a bad relay contact. I >immediately move the heads back manually and all is well (at least no >further HDI). > >After dinner I'll start double checking the power supply voltages. Thanks >for any and all input! Good Luck. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Sep 9 16:39:44 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: 7900A drive: 1 , Me - 1/2 In-Reply-To: <002301befa5e$287cf420$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990909163944.234fedac@mailhost.intellistar.net> Jay, Sounds more like: drive 1, you 9/10! The fact that it works tells you that it's not a hard failure and only a contact or something of that nature. Sounds like it may have been nothing more than an oxidized contact and reseating it fixed the problem. That's not uncommon. I say use the heads like they are until they start giving your trouble. BTW I wonder if the heads are the same as those on a 7914 or any of the other HP drives? I've scrapped some of them and I could have gotten the heads for nothing. I may find more of them, they're not rare by any means. You might try blowing it out with the blower end of a vacuum cleaner. Try using the tapered wand on the end of the hose, that will boast the air speed. You could use a stiff brush like a toothbrush to loosen the crud at the same time. You may want to find something bigger than a toothbrash or you might be there for a while. Joe At 07:56 PM 9/8/99 -0500, you wrote: >The score narrows, but I can't claim a complete victory.... > >Tony wrote... >>Well, if the servo can lock the heads in both directions, then the power >>rails are probably OK (although it can't hurt to check them). Your next >>job (and I can't help here as I don't have the schematics) is to figure >>out how it unloads the heads (where does it apply the unload signal, what >>causes it, etc) and then to check through the electronics. It's not that >>complex. > >I went through the schematics, concentrating on the PMR board (Power >regulator) and Drive control board. Not in great detail, but just enough to >get a general gist of the sequence of events and "who does what". I then >went down and checked the disc power supply (it's a separate rackmount >unit). Then before starting to follow traces and wires I decided to pull all >the connections from the rest of the system to the PMR board. I was >specifically looking for wires that had come loose, or pins that weren't >pushed all the way in the connector, etc. Double checked that my hand >written labels on the connectors (done before removing them) showed that all >the connectors were back in the right place. > >Powered the drive up - heads seeked and drive ready came on. Hit the unload >switch, and the heads immediately retracted and the brake engaged. Did this >about 10 times in a row, every time the heads retracted nicely just like >they're supposed to. Hummm... this leads me to one of two possible >conclusions: A) there was just a loose connector, or B) this is a total >co-incidence that it started working and the problem might very easily >happen again. Now that it's working, further troubleshooting to be sure of >the exact cause is not easy. I Know I had all the connectors pushed down >firm and in the correct place before, but, it does work now (at least 10 >times anyway, my luck the 11th time would have been the failure). > >Followup questions: >1) The drive innards are dusty again, must be the environment (or running >with the covers removed didn't help I guess). What is the best way to get >all the dust out? Canned air doesn't begin to get the dust off the plastic >surfaces, neither does a DP-style vacuum. Any tips/tricks anyone would care >to pass on? > >2) From the previous spin-down with the heads on the platter, the bottom >heads are mint but the top heads now have oxide streaks on them. Cleaning >with foam qtips and IPA doesn't budge any of it. I am loath to take out the >top heads (removable platter) and send them out for recontouring and >test-fly because then the drive will need to be re-aligned and I don't have >an alignment cartridge (and probably the know-how) to realign them. This is >only important because I have a diagnostic cartridge that I need to be able >to read for additional cpu/disk/tape diagnostics on down the road. Is it the >general consensus that heads in this condition are ok to use or am I setting >myself up for a major problem. What I'm hoping is on down the road to get >the diagnostics copied from cartridge to 1/2 tape. Then I can send the heads >off and not bother with re-alignment (other than having to reformat my >cartridges and lay data from tape back down. Bad idea? > >Thanks! > >Jay West > > > > > > > From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Sep 9 15:58:51 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: therac-25 Message-ID: <990909165851.2020039a@trailing-edge.com> > I found myself in the mood for revisiting the macabre side of >classic computing and decided to search for Therac stuff. See: > >http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/~adamd/essays/rts3.html > > Now it seems to me that the fellow who wrote this article was >pretty full of it. If you can get past his overuse of passive voice and >continual nominalization, you may note that many of his points are far too >theoretical and not supported by direct observation, knowledge, etc. It's clear (to me, at least) that he's never directly worked with any of the Therac machines, nor did he even bother talking to the folks at AECL before writing his article. It's entirely a bunch of opinions of his after he read Nancy Leveson's article on Therac. > For >example, he claims that this [perhaps] regenned rt11 monitor supports >multi-threaded execution to the degree of its enabling things like race >conditions, etc. Heck, he also believes that PDP-11 assembly is *difficult*! >just throwing it out there as discussion bait... Again, don't take what he writes too seriously (after all, the author didn't - look at all the "I believes" and "I feels" in there). I've worked with several of the Therac machines, and any of the AECL engineers involved knows a lot more about the methodology involved than the third-hand opinions on someone's web site. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jritorto at nut.net Thu Sep 9 16:17:22 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: XXDP patching In-Reply-To: <990909165851.2020039a@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: Hello. I'm taking a very simplistic approach to a fairly difficult process I guess. I want to hot-patch XXDP to use a few less cylinders than usual in an attempt to accommodate a disk slightly smaller thatn an RD-54. Currently, XXDP bails at the end of the formatting tracks phase and the controller locks. I just need to tell XXDP to go a few cylinders less than normal and I think it'll work. I've read third-party-disks.txt, so I'm aware that someone's been doing this; I'm just not ready to try it myself yet. The disk I have is the Maxtor XT-1140, apparently with the only difference being 918 clyinders instead of 1224. thanks. jake From morrison at t-iii.com Thu Sep 9 16:29:54 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: therac-25 Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601BE68E0@hobbit.t-iii.com> Or look at http://www.calpoly.edu/~darkjedi/300/00.htm for a twisted view of the incident. Or, to quote my Mother, the people responsible for this disaster "should be flogged with a maggoty cat"! My 2 cents: relying on S/W for safety is like relying on timing for birth control. I've known of beatifully made Swiss molding machines with all sorts of hydraulic and electrical interlocks still closing at 100 tons force an inch from someone's fingers. Give me a 2 inch steel bar anyday. Neil Morrison Implementation GTE Enterprise Solutions ph: (604) 293-5710 email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com [SMTP:CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 09, 1999 1:59 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: therac-25 > > > I found myself in the mood for revisiting the macabre side of > >classic computing and decided to search for Therac stuff. See: > > > >http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/~adamd/essays/rts3.html > > > > Now it seems to me that the fellow who wrote this article was > >pretty full of it. If you can get past his overuse of passive voice and > >continual nominalization, you may note that many of his points are far > too > >theoretical and not supported by direct observation, knowledge, etc. > > It's clear (to me, at least) that he's never directly worked with > any of the Therac machines, nor did he even bother talking to the > folks at AECL before writing his article. It's entirely a bunch of > opinions of his after he read Nancy Leveson's article on Therac. > .... clipped From red at bears.org Thu Sep 9 17:56:29 1999 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: vaxstation graphics Message-ID: Hullo. Could somebody give me a quick rundown of the differences in capabilities between GPX and SPX graphics on a VAXstation 3100, and how I might tell which I've actually got? According to the emblem on the front of the machine, I have an SPX-equipped unit. As I understand it this is what passes for 'top-of-the-line' graphics on the 3100. After the initial mix-up when I received the machine without any add-on graphics card, I was sent what was supposed to be the proper SPX card for the unit. Just the other day I happened to notice that 'show version' or some similar 'show' command in UCX indicated I had a 3100 with GPX graphics. Now I'm no longer sure what's what. Could somebody set me straight? ok r. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Sep 9 18:48:03 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: therac-25 Message-ID: <990909194803.2020039a@trailing-edge.com> >> For >>example, he claims that this [perhaps] regenned rt11 monitor supports >>multi-threaded execution to the degree of its enabling things like race >>conditions, etc. >Heck, he also believes that PDP-11 assembly is *difficult*! A few folks asked me in private E-mail how *I* feel about the issues involved. I've worked with AECL folks in the past, and I continue to support some RT-11 based medical systems using some AECL hardware and firmware in components. Leveson's article is, I think, much more on target - it doesn't blame the failure and resultant casualties on any technical decisions made wrong, but on much higher-level decisions - the organizational components that failed. It's like answering "What was the cause of the Challenger Disaster?" Yes, the easy answer is to point at the technical decisions made which caused the explosion. But the real causes - and what we have to pay attention to in order to prevent disasters in the future - are the organizational and institutional systems that prevented, on multiple occasions, the problem from from receiving its due attention (and solution). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Sep 9 18:58:18 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: vaxstation graphics Message-ID: <199909092358.TAA17121@world.std.com> from "Jay West" at Sep 8, 99 07:56:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3576 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990909/5161f726/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Thu Sep 9 19:06:53 1999 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: vaxstation graphics In-Reply-To: <199909092358.TAA17121@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > First off you have to identify the 3100 variation they started with the > 3100m10 through the current 3100m90 or it is 95... in all about 15-25 > different systems with different graphic capabilites. Some graphic > systems were unique to specific models. I didn't know that some grpahics options were unique to specific models. I had realised, though, that a fair number of other things were. (: It's an m76. ok r. From macierno at hotmail.com Thu Sep 9 19:18:17 1999 From: macierno at hotmail.com (mark acierno) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: PDP - 8 Message-ID: <19990910001817.3248.qmail@hotmail.com> Just got myself a pdp-8e and i was wondering if anyone out there had or knew where to get software for it ??? It came with 8" drives and no dec tapes or a papertape reader....... so i'm limited to floppy media. The system seems to work fine and cannot wait to get it set up! mark ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From wvh at gethip.com Thu Sep 9 19:30:24 1999 From: wvh at gethip.com (Bill von Hagen) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: Fwd: UNIVAC 1610 Print Element Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990909202850.00a67d70@mail.city-net.com> I recently received this mail and thought someone on the list might be able to help this guy. The topic of his request predates most of my collection (and knowledge, for that matter). Thanks to anyone who can help him - please reply to him directly. Bill >From: Curt Repka >To: "'wvh@gethip.com'" >Subject: UNIVAC 1610 Print Element >Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:48:16 -0500 >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) > >I have a couple of old UNIVAC keypunch work stations - Model 1610. They >work fine, but they will not print the data on the card. Do you have any >leads on a possible source for technical support, parts, etc.? I have >tried the Tech Support Dept of UNISYS @ 1-800-328-0440, but they >couldn't help. I need the print element and the ink roller. Any help >would be appreciated!!!! > From morrison at t-iii.com Thu Sep 9 20:25:01 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: Intel 4004 processor Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601BE6A6E@hobbit.t-iii.com> I came across a letter from someone who needs one of these to fix a valuable piece of equipment. Are there any still in existence? Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Sep 9 20:49:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: vaxstation graphics Message-ID: <199909100149.VAA20704@world.std.com> Message-ID: <99090921582405.12939@vault.neurotica.com> On Thu, 09 Sep 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: >VMS runs nicely on it as its a 7.8VUP machine and decwindows supports the >SPX option. Versions 5.4 through 7.2 run on it and 7.2 is avaiable >under the hobbiest license (DECUS) for free. Montagar.com has the CDrom >with VMS and a small raft of supporting software that is a must have for >the $30 they charge. Just to wave the flag around a bit more...I recently received my VMS 7.2 distribution and have been installing VMS like a mad dog around here. I've got five systems running so far (two VAX4000-400s, a 4000-200, a 3300, and a 3100/80) and it's great. It includes LOTS of layered products (c, fortran, pascal, basic, tcpip, decnet-plus, notes, etc) and is a breeze to install. There's no excuse for having these machines powered off, folks...go get VMS and fire 'em up!! -Dave McGuire From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Sep 9 21:04:42 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: Intel 4004 processor In-Reply-To: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601BE6A6E@hobbit.t-iii.com> from "morrison@t-iii.com" at "Sep 9, 1999 06:25:01 pm" Message-ID: <199909100204.CAA19945@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > I came across a letter from someone who needs one of these to fix a valuable > piece of equipment. > Are there any still in existence? > > Neil Morrison > email:morrison@t-iii.com > They sell for over $300 each on ebay. yes, they still exist. -Lawrence LeMay From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Sep 9 21:14:44 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: Intel 4004 processor In-Reply-To: <199909100204.CAA19945@thorin.cs.umn.edu> from Lawrence LeMay at "Sep 9, 1999 09:04:42 pm" Message-ID: <199909100214.CAA19982@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > I came across a letter from someone who needs one of these to fix a valuable > > piece of equipment. > > Are there any still in existence? > > > > Neil Morrison > > email:morrison@t-iii.com > > > > They sell for over $300 each on ebay. yes, they still exist. > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160258235 With almost 9 days left, its already at $132.50 ... Hey, if you find a source thats giving em away, i'm sure i can find things that need them as well.. -Lawrence LeMay From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 9 21:01:59 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: vaxstation graphics References: <199909100149.VAA20704@world.std.com> Message-ID: <99090922135906.12939@vault.neurotica.com> On Thu, 09 Sep 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: >I'd have guessed it was a M76, it was the only SPX I knew of. I've got a factory-badged M38 SPX here... -Dave McGuire From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Sep 9 21:14:44 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: PDP - 8 Message-ID: <199909100214.WAA09035@world.std.com> Try looking on the net under PDP-8 sites of note: DBIT.com update.uu.se Hightegate.com oak.oakland.edu There is plenty of software out there including at least three versions of os/8 (both source and binaries). There are also copies of SRT/RTS-8 and images of many papertapes as well. Allison From wsmith at gj.com Thu Sep 9 21:42:43 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: Intel 4004 processor Message-ID: >>> Lawrence LeMay 09/09 7:14 PM >>> >> > I came across a letter from someone who needs one of these to fix a valuable >> > piece of equipment. >> > Are there any still in existence? >> > >> > Neil Morrison >> > email:morrison@t-iii.com >> > >> >> They sell for over $300 each on ebay. yes, they still exist. >> > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160258235 > >With almost 9 days left, its already at $132.50 ... Hey, if you find a >source thats giving em away, i'm sure i can find things that need them >as well.. > >-Lawrence LeMay If you can find a Busicom Model 141-PF desktop calculator, you can pull the 4004 chip right off the board. Perhaps others know of other models that used the 4004. ! ! ! From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 9 21:59:10 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: vaxstation graphics In-Reply-To: <99090921582405.12939@vault.neurotica.com> References: <199909100149.VAA20704@world.std.com> Message-ID: > Just to wave the flag around a bit more...I recently received my VMS 7.2 >distribution and have been installing VMS like a mad dog around here. >I've got Great isn't it! >five systems running so far (two VAX4000-400s, a 4000-200, a 3300, and a >3100/80) and it's great. It includes LOTS of layered products (c, fortran, >pascal, basic, tcpip, decnet-plus, notes, etc) and is a breeze to install. It does help if you can come up with a set of the actual DEC CD's though, as a lot of the stuff in the Hobbyist licenses aren't on the Hobbyist CD's. I managed to get a set for the Alpha (the VAX Hobbyist CD has everything I needed). Now the question is, do you have all those systems clustered? BTW, nice set of VAXen, make the VAX side of my cluster look downright pathetic! > There's no excuse for having these machines powered off, folks...go get VMS >and fire 'em up!! Agreed, VAXen should be running VMS :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 9 22:07:29 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: Sun3 Archive Message-ID: I found this earlier today, and figure there are people around here that might be interested in it. http://sun3arc.krupp.net/ If you've got a Sun3 system you're trying to get up and running this looks like the place for you! It seems to have a very slow network connection, but looks to have a lot of good info, including Y2K patches and software. After finding this resource I won't run away so fast when I see a Sun3 :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 9 21:59:33 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: vaxstation graphics References: Message-ID: <9909092303240G.12939@vault.neurotica.com> On Thu, 09 Sep 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: >It does help if you can come up with a set of the actual DEC CD's though, >as a lot of the stuff in the Hobbyist licenses aren't on the Hobbyist CD's. >I managed to get a set for the Alpha (the VAX Hobbyist CD has everything I >needed). Hmm...I'll have to keep my eyes open for that stuff. >Now the question is, do you have all those systems clustered? Not yet. I was a VMS sysadmin several years ago (5.4 was current) but I never played with clustering. I'd like to cluster the two 4000-400s at the very least; maybe all of them. Since you mention that yours are clustered, could you recommend a good place to start? >BTW, nice set of VAXen, make the VAX side of my cluster look downright >pathetic! Nah, *all* VAXen are cool! >> There's no excuse for having these machines powered off, folks...go get VMS >>and fire 'em up!! > >Agreed, VAXen should be running VMS :^) Great hardware, great software! Since I've got decent connectivity here, I'm hoping to set up some sort of archive server, and I've also got a hankerin' to run a net-accessible BBS on a VMS system. -Dave McGuire From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Sep 9 22:07:12 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: PDP - 8 In-Reply-To: <19990910001817.3248.qmail@hotmail.com> from "mark acierno" at Sep 09, 1999 05:18:17 PM Message-ID: <199909100307.UAA06055@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi: Software and systems documentation are at http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8. There's more, check out metalab.unc.edu under computer-science/history/pdp8 or thereabouts, I may not have this URL exactly correct. Good luck, Kevin > > Just got myself a pdp-8e and i was wondering if anyone out there had or knew > where to get software for it ??? It came with 8" drives and no dec tapes or > a papertape reader....... so i'm limited to floppy media. The system seems > to work fine and cannot wait to get it set up! > > > > mark > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From dogas at leading.net Wed Sep 8 22:11:04 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: CRT replacements for NS Advantage??? Message-ID: <01befa70$f3f8c2c0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Help! I just had a Northstar Advantage shipped to me and because of the shoddy packaging job, the CRT is history. The back of the tube is broken. I'm sad and I'm pissed. I hate seeing equipment so mishandled. Are there any compatible organ doners out there or suggestions for a possible revival? Thanks - Mike: dogas@leading.net From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Sep 9 22:05:54 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: vaxstation graphics Message-ID: <199909100305.XAA10034@world.std.com> < < I've got a factory-badged M38 SPX here... Figures... they are about the same age with the m38 being a bit older (comming out sooner) than the M76. there are a lot of differences between the two. either way both nice boxes. I have 3 VAXserver M10Es and the one lonely M76/spx. I don't have a tube on the m76 as I use a terminal or the vt1200 on the network. My MVII has a GPX board set (all three planes) but I dont use it. The room would never tolerate a VRmumble 19" color tube, they are huge. Never found out why SPX or GPX terms were used. Allison From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Sep 9 22:51:41 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: Vaxstation video In-Reply-To: <199909100305.XAA10034@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Sep 09, 1999 11:05:54 PM Message-ID: <199909100351.VAA29347@calico.litterbox.com> Speaking of vaxstation 3100s, I have a vs42a-bd vaxstation. I also now find myself with an extra PC svga monitor. Is it possible to use the monitor with the vaxstation? I once connected a NEC multisync to one and got usable video, but NEC Multisyncs are extraordinary monitors (and I happened to have one with the right jacks for the cable I had - long story.) If so, where would I get the appropriate cable? Also, does anyone have a keyboard for this thing that they'd sell? It doesn't seem to like autobooting with a terminal, although it will boot. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From jritorto at nut.net Fri Sep 10 01:00:18 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: XXDP on 1.2M In-Reply-To: Message-ID: does anyone have the ability to write an XXDP floppy for me? RX33 format? thanks... From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Sep 10 08:01:55 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: CRT replacements for NS Advantage??? In-Reply-To: <01befa70$f3f8c2c0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: > Are there any compatible organ doners out there or suggestions for a > possible revival? Likely the tube used is one of the ones common to the time and used in a lot of terminals, monitors and the like. You'll need to get the part number off it it should be an easy match. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Sep 10 08:13:48 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: vaxstation graphics In-Reply-To: <9909092303240G.12939@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > >Now the question is, do you have all those systems clustered? > > Not yet. I was a VMS sysadmin several years ago (5.4 was current) but I > never played with clustering. I'd like to cluster the two 4000-400s at the > very least; maybe all of them. Since you mention that yours are clustered, > could you recommend a good place to start? It's pretty easy. I have a LAVC running under V5.5 consisting of a MVII and two disk poor (only have RD52s for swap) VS2000s. One of the VS2000s is my TK50 backup sink as well. Works nice. With everything turned on.... VS3100m/76 (PIPER:: 3 VAXserver3100m/10e (one has TLZ04 tape, another has lots of disk) BA23 MVII (used to be VIDSYS:: at DEC, still called that) BA123 MVII (cluster host FLYER::) 3 MV2000 (2 clustered(cessna::, mooney::) one with RD54 and tk50(AIRPLN::)) VT320 VT340 VT1200 (hooked up as both DTE to the BA123 MVII and NIC as DECwinterm) Somewhere there is a thing on the naming of VAXen. > hoping to set up some sort of archive server, and I've also got a hankerin' to > run a net-accessible BBS on a VMS system. Same here. I need to figure out connectivity to the net (cheap). Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Sep 10 08:17:32 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: Vaxstation video In-Reply-To: <199909100351.VAA29347@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: > Speaking of vaxstation 3100s, I have a vs42a-bd vaxstation. I also now > find myself with an extra PC svga monitor. Is it possible to use the monitor > with the vaxstation? I once connected a NEC multisync to one and got > usable video, but NEC Multisyncs are extraordinary monitors (and I happened > to have one with the right jacks for the cable I had - long story.) Generally PC monitors don't work, but hey it's worth a try. > If so, where would I get the appropriate cable? Also, does anyone have > a keyboard for this thing that they'd sell? It doesn't seem to like > autobooting with a terminal, although it will boot. All the DEC systems that use MMJ connector take any of the DEC keyboards (LK201,LK301,LK401), those are used on ALL VTxxx terminals, Pro3xx, Rainbow to name just a few. it should be easy to find. Allison From dogas at leading.net Fri Sep 10 08:56:03 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: CRT replacements for NS Advantage??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks Allison. I'll look up the part # when I get home tonight. -Mike: dogas@leading.net From: allisonp@world.std.com > Are there any compatible organ doners out there or suggestions for a > possible revival? Likely the tube used is one of the ones common to the time and used in a lot of terminals, monitors and the like. You'll need to get the part number off it it should be an easy match. Allison From CharlesII at nwonline.net Fri Sep 10 09:56:26 1999 From: CharlesII at nwonline.net (CharlesII) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:14 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! Message-ID: Could you tell me what voltages come from what pins on that A500. The one I have doesn't have a power supply. John Rollins wrote: >Been a little while since I got a "new" computer. One of the neighbors was >getting rid of some stuff from their basement, which included two >computers. Luckily they now I'm a computer freak and told me I could have >whatever I wanted. So, now I have an Amiga 500 with p/s, A520 video adaptor >and what looks like a printer cable. No disks :-(, but it did have the >original box(wow! a 7MHz 68000 and 512K RAM!!!). Also got a C64 with 1541 >drive, two joysticks and probably 50-70 disks(haven't gotten around to >counting. But hey, Pac-Man is in there!). The C64 seems to be working just >fine(not sure about the drive yet), but the Amiga isn't. When I finally >figured out how the A520 worked, all I could get on my Apple composite >monitor was a green screen with a blank area at the top(looked kinfa like >the video is off a bit inside the monitor, which is partially true but it's >not THAT bad... just some hidden text on the edge usually) which blinks >maybe every 10-15 seconds or so. No sounds, no text, not really any video >at all. The power light is kinda flashing, maybe once every second or >two(haven't timed it yet). Any ideas on what's wrong? I'll hold off on the >how do I use it questions until after I finish raiding the local library of >the computer books, but feel free to send me any tips and tricks for these >systems... > >-------------------------------------------------------------- >| http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html | >| orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | >| ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | >-------------------------------------------------------------- > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 10 10:13:13 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! In-Reply-To: from "CharlesII" at Sep 10, 99 10:56:26 am Message-ID: <199909101513.IAA05904@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 467 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990910/76a0023e/attachment.ksh From black at gco.apana.org.au Fri Sep 10 10:21:30 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: Spectravideo 318 Message-ID: <005b01befba0$63bde100$353a8aca@primus.com.au> Well, I finally managed to pick up one of the machines I'm after - a Spectravideo SV318, came with tape & RF converter, but I really want to connect this to a monitor - is it possible to wire it up to a CGA monitor ? If anyone has the pinouts, I'd be happy, also, where can I find a disk drive for this beastie ? (BTW: I'm still looking in Oz for anyone who may have a spare Exidy Sorceror laying around.... and an Apple II) // Lance Lyon black@gco.apana.org.au llyon@primus.com.au lance999@hotmail.com Ph: +61-3-6254-7376 // -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990911/42c8b212/attachment.html From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Sep 10 12:35:40 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: Britain is Great (Back from the Island) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199909101536.RAA28739@horus.mch.sni.de> Servus, well, I'm back from the island (best regards to Phillip) and I can only encurage everyone to scrooge their car boot sales - I found: - an Amstrad CPC 464 at GBP 5 (Ok, not exactly rare, but since I had only the Schneider OEM versions until today, the colourfull keyboard gives a distinctive new look :) - a C64 at GBP 7 (Well, again not exactly rare, but never used and original packed it's worth a look) - A BBC at GBP 3 (Now, again not unusual, but getting a Z80 and a 6502 tube module included and a bib box of documentation it's quite a nice find) - an Olivetti PC-1 at GBP 2 (!) (Now thats unusual - I've been searching for years to get one of these) AND - tataaaa - an HP 46 Calculator with installed display option, including the original plastic coffer and in _realy_ good (working) condition at (another ta taa) only GBP 3 !!! (Well, the Old lady asked if three pounds may be to much ...) What a Sunday - and some Stupid Faces at the Lufthansa counter at LHR when they charged me GBP 85 for excess baggage, and I told them that these are old Computers ... Well, never mind, I still belive the HP is a #1 item. BTW: has anybody more info about it ? (I still managed it _not_ to open the machine :) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Sep 10 12:40:27 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: Gem Desktop In-Reply-To: <000d01bef9d8$e9d42840$f13dc018@tp.c2.telstra-mm.net.au> Message-ID: <199909101541.RAA28897@horus.mch.sni.de> > >desktop. Despite the claims of Apple and the Palo Alto connection > >and the suit that wound up GEM on PCs and resulted in Windblows, > >I am unclear as to what the DI relationship was, why Atari was > >allowed to continue with it's GEM desktop, altho they stopped at > I'm confused. I had assumed that GEM was simply renamed to Viewmax which was > bundled with DR Dos. If there's differences I didn't spot them. ViewMax was just a fast hit to compete against the DOS-Shell. Jep, it was almost a full GEM, but not intended to be - but it needs only som minor changes :) Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Sep 10 10:44:15 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: Spectravideo 318 In-Reply-To: <005b01befba0$63bde100$353a8aca@primus.com.au> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Sep 1999 01:21:30 +1000 Lance Lyon wrote: > (BTW: I'm still looking in Oz for anyone who may have a spare > Exidy Sorceror laying around.... and an Apple II) > > // Lance Lyon Well, I have an Apple ][ here, but I'm also looking for an Exidy Sorceror. Anybody know of one in the UK that's looking for a good home (or a swap)? Is it true that the Exidy's ROM cartridge is housed in an 8-track tape case? -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Sep 10 14:19:52 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: Differentiating chips (Was: Newbie member saying something!!! In-Reply-To: References: <199909071951.PAA14039@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <199909101720.TAA01565@horus.mch.sni.de> > On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote about using > self-modifying code to check the size of the prefetch buffer to > differentiate between 8086 and 8088. > But does anyone have a good way to differentiate between 386SX and 386DX? Well, check at startup the DX register - if DH is 3 it is a DX, if 23 it's a SX (DL is the stepping). > Possibilities that come to mind include brute force speed comparison? > Compare speed of moving data that is word v doubleword aligned? > SX has 24 bit address bus, DX has 32 bits. Any easy way to test? No idea about if the moving thing is a possible test, only the difference in the results is quite low - you have to compare speed differences between instruction timings of known instruction sequences. The biggest Backdraft on the early SX was, if I remember correctly, that the BIU did always do 32 bit transfers, no matter if the requestes data was 8, 16 or 32 Bit and a worst case miss alignd 16 bit access (i.e. on address ...11) would result in two 32 Bit accesses which eventualy became 4 16 Bit data transfers. But as I said, this applied AFAIR only to early SXes - and of course not to all second source SX. So the only test I can imagine right now is the weak test thru using the Memory space - Switch the CPU to Flat addressing, and check for example if the BIOS ROM is mirrored every 16 MB (or if it is only mirrored every 64 MB, which gives you a CX CPU). Just if the board designer did only include 24 (or 26) address lines, your test will still fails, even on a DX :(. I cant think of another 'legal' way other than pushing Reset and checking DH (and later on checking the Type instruction of the CX core) Anyways - maybe check also a nice Dr.Dobbs article about AP485 and some blockheads at Intel (I may add that in the 286 Manual they described safer tests :) http://www.ddj.com/articles/1996/9609/9609o/9609o.htm Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 10 14:54:20 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: Differentiating chips (Was: Newbie member saying something!!! In-Reply-To: <199909101720.TAA01565@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Hans Franke wrote: > > But does anyone have a good way to differentiate between 386SX and 386DX? > Well, check at startup the DX register - if DH is 3 it is a DX, > if 23 it's a SX (DL is the stepping). And then the POST (Power On Self Test) IMMEDIATELY wipes it. It's easy to bypass some parts of the POST, but how do you suggest checking the value in that register before the computer has booted enough to even have video? Replacing the ROMs in the computer doesn't seem like a suitable way for a program to identify the CPU. > > Possibilities that come to mind include brute force speed comparison? > > Compare speed of moving data that is word v doubleword aligned? > > SX has 24 bit address bus, DX has 32 bits. Any easy way to test? > > No idea about if the moving thing is a possible test, only the > difference in the results is quite low - you have to compare > speed differences between instruction timings of known instruction > sequences. REP MOVSD can be used to move up to 64K in real mod, thereby providing enough occurences to do it. The difference in time between an aligned v misaligned move (1 v 2 32 bit moves) should be more of a difference than any other differenvces in the instruction set. > The biggest Backdraft on the early SX was, if I remember > correctly, that the BIU did always do 32 bit transfers, no matter > if the requestes data was 8, 16 or 32 Bit and a worst case miss > alignd 16 bit access (i.e. on address ...11) would result in two > 32 Bit accesses which eventualy became 4 16 Bit data transfers. > But as I said, this applied AFAIR only to early SXes - and of course > not to all second source SX. So the only test I can imagine right > now is the weak test thru using the Memory space - Switch the CPU > to Flat addressing, and check for example if the BIOS ROM is > mirrored every 16 MB (or if it is only mirrored every 64 MB, > which gives you a CX CPU). Just if the board designer did only > include 24 (or 26) address lines, your test will still fails, > even on a DX :(. So, a bad board design of a DX would render the "mirroring" test unusable? > I cant think of another 'legal' way other than > pushing Reset and checking DH (and later on checking the Type > instruction of the CX core) But, when I press Reset, unless I change the ROMs, I can not regain access until te POST has thoroughly wiped all traces of that startup code. > Anyways - maybe check also a nice Dr.Dobbs article about AP485 > and some blockheads at Intel (I may add that in the 286 Manual > they described safer tests :) Thanks! Many years ago, an author in MicroCornucopia mentioned that he used some "intel approved tests". Unfortunately, he immediately left the country, and was unreachable in Turkey. I called intel, and wandered the voice maze for a few days. I finally reached somebody who UNDERSTOOD what I was looking for! (after literally dozens of responses on the order of "ask the manufacturer of the computer what's in it") But, then he said that if I ever found those tests, would I please send him a copy. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Sep 10 15:11:18 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: Differentiating chips (Was: Newbie member saying something!!! In-Reply-To: References: <199909101720.TAA01565@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <4.1.19990910131016.03f2aa10@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Hans Franke wrote: >> Well, check at startup the DX register - if DH is 3 it is a DX, >> if 23 it's a SX (DL is the stepping). At 12:54 PM 9/10/99 -0700, Fred wrote: >And then the POST (Power On Self Test) IMMEDIATELY wipes it. It's easy to >bypass some parts of the POST, but how do you suggest checking the value >in that register before the computer has booted enough to even have video? Could you jump into protected mode and out again (which forces a reset) and pull the value out of DH then? --Chuck From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Sep 10 16:26:22 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: Apple II gs problem Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990910162622.2327b314@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi all, I just picked up a nice Apple II gs system but I can't make it work. It keeps saying "check starttup device". I've tried several disk drives and five different disks that should be bootable. Can anyone tell me more about what it's looking for or what I might be doing wrong? I've never used one of these so I'm not familar with it. Joe From spc at armigeron.com Fri Sep 10 15:25:30 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: Differentiating chips (Was: Newbie member saying In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990910131016.03f2aa10@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Sep 10, 99 01:11:18 pm Message-ID: <199909102025.QAA30161@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1168 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990910/b972be28/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Sep 10 16:45:01 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: Britain is Great (Back from the Island) In-Reply-To: <199909101536.RAA28739@horus.mch.sni.de> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990910164501.233f76c8@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 05:36 PM 9/10/99 +1, you wrote: >Servus, > > >AND - tataaaa - an HP 46 Calculator with installed display >option, including the original plastic coffer and in _realy_ >good (working) condition at (another ta taa) only GBP 3 !!! >(Well, the Old lady asked if three pounds may be to much ...) > Cool find! Especially in the UK. I have five of them including two with consecutive serial numbers. I found four of them at one time at Patrick AFB. What do you want to know about them? BTW I know the display was listed as an option but I think they ALL came with it. I've never heard of one that didn't have it. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 10 13:13:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: CRT replacements for NS Advantage??? In-Reply-To: <01befa70$f3f8c2c0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> from "Mike" at Sep 8, 99 11:11:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1337 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990910/845b0045/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 10 13:52:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: Spectravideo 318 In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at Sep 10, 99 04:44:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 741 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990910/1763b729/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Fri Sep 10 16:54:49 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, CharlesII wrote: > Could you tell me what voltages come from what pins on that A500. The one > I have doesn't have a power supply. This should help, but remember this is the plug on the power cord. The computer jack is a mirror image! A500 Power cable TOP .___.___ /.......\ |.3...4.| 1. +5V |...5...| 2. Shield |.2...1.| 3. +12V \_______/ 4. GND ......... 5. -5V From dogas at leading.net Thu Sep 9 17:11:05 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: was Spectravideo 318 now Exidy Hunt Message-ID: <01befb10$35f74a80$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Damn... I've been sitting on a real s-100 exidy expansion box for the sorcerer for a long time now (no, its not for sale) and I can't find an sorcerer to go with it eiither... alas Hmm... I'd be willing to trade a Heathkit H8 or maybe a TRS6000HD, or.... if that would pry one from somebody's hands... ;) - Mike: dogas@leading.net -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 5:51 PM Subject: Re: Spectravideo 318 >> Well, I have an Apple ][ here, but I'm also looking for an >> Exidy Sorceror. Anybody know of one in the UK that's >> looking for a good home (or a swap)? >> >> Is it true that the Exidy's ROM cartridge is housed in an >> 8-track tape case? > >My sorceror is not looking for a good home because it already has one :-).... > >But yes, the ROM cartridges _are_ 8-track tape cases with the tape and >mechancial bits removed and the end cut open (not very well IMHO) to >allow the edge of the PCB to fit into the edge connector in the machine. >The ROM PCB contains 4 ROM chips and a couple of TTL ones (address >decoder I think). > >Hence the question on a University of Bristol computer society quiz >'Where did 8 tracks become 8 bits' ;-) > >-tony > > From dogas at leading.net Thu Sep 9 17:12:06 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: CRT replacements for NS Advantage??? Message-ID: <01befb10$5a888ee0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Thanks Tondy. I was hoping to hear from you on this matter. I'll see if I can find a suitable replacement - Mike: dogas@leading.net -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 5:50 PM Subject: Re: CRT replacements for NS Advantage??? >> >> Help! >> >> I just had a Northstar Advantage shipped to me and because of the shoddy >> packaging job, the CRT is history. The back of the tube is broken. I'm sad >> and I'm pissed. I hate seeing equipment so mishandled. > >Ouch!!! > > >> >> Are there any compatible organ doners out there or suggestions for a >> possible revival? > >There is no way you'll repair the original CRT if the glass is broken (or >even cracked). > >Fortunately, there appear to be only 2 common flavours of monochrome CRT >used in terminals/monitors. One type has a 8 pin B8H base (like an >International Octal with thin pins and a large spigot), a thick neck, and >a 6.3V heater. The other has a 'modified B7G base' (like a 7 pin >miniature tube/valve, but with a hole in the middle of the socket to take >the seal-off tube of the CRT), a thin neck and a 11-12V heater. Most such >CRTs (of both flavours) have a 90 degree deflection angle. > >If you can get a suitable tube of the same class (perhaps raid it from an >old terminal, like a VT3xx that's blown its flyback, or raid it from a >cheap portable B/W TV), it's likely to work. You may have to fiddle the >electrode voltages slightly, but in my experience, putting the CRT in, >fitting the original yoke (these are _not_ generic), and pluging in the >base and EHT cap will produce a useable image. > >-tony > From owad at applefritter.com Fri Sep 10 18:14:50 1999 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: Apple II gs problem Message-ID: <199909102215.PAA17564@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> > I just picked up a nice Apple II gs system but I can't make it work. It >keeps saying "check starttup device". I've tried several disk drives and >five different disks that should be bootable. Can anyone tell me more about >what it's looking for or what I might be doing wrong? I've never used one >of these so I'm not familar with it. Is the system attempting to read the disk? If not, you probably need to make some changes in the control panel. Access it by pressing Option-Control-Reset immediately after turning on the system. IIRC, the changes you want to make will be in the "Slots" menu, and involve which slots are used for boot-up. Tom Owad ---------------------------Applefritter--------------------------- Apple prototypes, Apple II & early Mac clones, and the Compubrick. ------------------------------------ From dogas at leading.net Thu Sep 9 17:23:45 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: CRT replacements for NS Advantage??? Message-ID: <01befb11$fadc25e0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Anyone have any technical detail (schematics) for the Northstar Advantage that you're wiilling to copy for me? i.e. everything or at least tube driver circutry... Thanks - Mike: dogas@leading.net From dlw at trailingedge.com Fri Sep 10 17:30:42 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: was Spectravideo 318 now Exidy Hunt In-Reply-To: <01befb10$35f74a80$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: <199909102229.RAA31504@trailingedge.com> Would I give up my Sorcerer for an H8 or TRS6000HD? Hmmm.... don't think so. Not sure what I'd give it up for. It has been one that was so high on my want list for so long it would take something special. But if you'll give me your address I'll make sure you aren't bothered by that expansion box one night. :-) On 9 Sep 99, at 18:11, Mike wrote: > Damn... I've been sitting on a real s-100 exidy expansion box for the > sorcerer for a long time now (no, its not for sale) and I can't find an > sorcerer to go with it eiither... alas > > Hmm... I'd be willing to trade a Heathkit H8 or maybe a TRS6000HD, or.... > if that would pry one from somebody's hands... > > ;) > - Mike: dogas@leading.net ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Sep 10 17:59:53 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: was Spectravideo 318 now Exidy Hunt In-Reply-To: <199909102229.RAA31504@trailingedge.com> from David Williams at "Sep 10, 1999 05:30:42 pm" Message-ID: <199909102259.WAA24025@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > Would I give up my Sorcerer for an H8 or TRS6000HD? Hmmm.... > don't think so. Not sure what I'd give it up for. It has been one that > was so high on my want list for so long it would take something > special. But if you'll give me your address I'll make sure you aren't > bothered by that expansion box one night. :-) > How about a Sun IPX, or Vax 11/780 maintenance sets.. -Lawrence (i want a Exidy) LeMay From dogas at leading.net Thu Sep 9 18:04:42 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: was Spectravideo 318 now Exidy Hunt Message-ID: <01befb17$b367daa0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> The string attaching it to my big toe would surely wake me up when you grab it and then *there would be trouble* :) Mike: dogas@leading.net -----Original Message----- From: David Williams To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 6:32 PM Subject: Re: was Spectravideo 318 now Exidy Hunt But if you'll give me your address I'll make sure you aren't bothered by that expansion box one night. :-) From rexstout at uswest.net Fri Sep 10 19:17:56 1999 From: rexstout at uswest.net (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > .___.___ > /.......\ > |.3...4.| 1. +5V > |...5...| 2. Shield > |.2...1.| 3. +12V > \_______/ 4. GND > ......... 5. -5V I think I found my problem! No, I just don't think... I'm absolutely sure of it! OK, pin 1 was OK. +5v. AAAGGHHH! Pin 5 is -12v!!!!! Pin 3 reads +12v. Ouch... So, is my A500 pretty much fried now? Guess I'll now as soon as I get the PS fixed(if it can be... any ideas as to what might be wrong? any common failures in A500 PS's?). BTW, in response to earlier posts about loose chips, I finally found my Torx set(needed a T10, and I have TONS of T15's sitting around for my Macs) and everything inside looked okay. No loose chips, didn't notice anything blown up, no loose screws inside... Although the tabs on the shield for the motherboard were kinda annoying. Not to mention all the Torx screws. I'm glad there weren't any deeply recessed torx screws in that thing! It would have been a disaster. -------------------------------------------------------------- | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html | | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | -------------------------------------------------------------- From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Sep 10 18:49:48 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: Apple II gs problem Message-ID: <7227c051.250af31c@aol.com> In a message dated 9/10/99 6:16:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, owad@applefritter.com writes: > > I just picked up a nice Apple II gs system but I can't make it work. It > >keeps saying "check starttup device". I've tried several disk drives and > >five different disks that should be bootable. Can anyone tell me more about > >what it's looking for or what I might be doing wrong? I've never used one > >of these so I'm not familar with it. > > Is the system attempting to read the disk? If not, you probably need to > make some changes in the control panel. Access it by pressing > Option-Control-Reset immediately after turning on the system. IIRC, the > changes you want to make will be in the "Slots" menu, and involve which > slots are used for boot-up. > > Tom Owad > you can access the control panel at any time. if you are using a disk ][ controller card, you have to set slot 6 for 'your card' i believe. otherwise, you will have to change it for the onboard controller in case you are using that to run your disk drives. d From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 10 18:59:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! In-Reply-To: from "John Rollins" at Sep 10, 99 04:17:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 855 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990911/eb50e287/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Fri Sep 10 19:36:20 1999 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, John Rollins wrote: > OK, pin 1 was OK. +5v. AAAGGHHH! Pin 5 is -12v!!!!! Pin 3 reads +12v. I'm nearly positive that pin 5 should be -12v and not -5v. It makes much more sense for it to be that way (consider that RS232 is +/- 12v). That, and what I remeber being the difference between the C=128 power supply and that for the A500 being---other than the power switch---that the C=128 supply provides +/- 9v where the A500 supply provides +/- 12v. I can double check this in the owner's manual if somebody doesn't provide a definite answer before I get home this evening. > common failures in A500 PS's?). Heat failure due to poor thermal protection and overloading. ok r. From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Sep 10 19:45:08 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: How'd Apple get away with it????? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990910204508.0095c100@mail.30below.com> Whilst browsing the Apple store site, I found they are planning on introducing Mac OS9 very soon. Last I heard, they couldn't use that nomenclature due to MicroWare's trademark on OS-9. Was there some deal that I didn't hear about, or are the folks at Apple just being turds??? See ya, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jlwest at tseinc.com Fri Sep 10 19:42:11 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: HP2114 on ebay Message-ID: <000c01befbee$7d41b900$0101a8c0@jay> In case no one who would be interested noticed it, there's a pretty nice looking HP2114 system for sale on ebay. The 2114 is the first computer HP ever sold. It was an "acquired" design from a company they purchased, and HP thought they could do a better design so they came out with the 2100 series (followed by 21MX and 21MXE series). But, not before adding the 2115 and 2116 to the mix which are "kissing cousins" of the 2114. The one on ebay looks to be in great condition, and includes software, manuals, a bunch of I/O cards, an ASR33, a 2748A paper tape reader, Junk ASR33 for parts, and junk 2748B for parts. They want $450.00 for it (pretty high I think, but maybe not that much considering it's advertised as working and includes spares). No bidders last time I checked. I'm spending every ounce of spare cash I have getting my current HP systems running, so I can't buy the thing at the moment. But - I wanted to point it out for anyone interested in starting an early HP collection. It'd be a great start. Jay West From jlwest at tseinc.com Fri Sep 10 19:44:35 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: apple II+ request? Message-ID: <001501befbee$d4b3e460$0101a8c0@jay> I've been toying with the idea of adding an Apple ][ Plus to my collection. Twas the first computer I ever owned. Anyone have one they're looking/willing to trade or sell? Thanks! Jay West From dlw at trailingedge.com Fri Sep 10 20:15:04 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: was Spectravideo 318 now Exidy Hunt In-Reply-To: <199909102259.WAA24025@thorin.cs.umn.edu> References: <199909102229.RAA31504@trailingedge.com> from David Williams at "Sep 10, 1999 05:30:42 pm" Message-ID: <199909110113.UAA32077@trailingedge.com> On 10 Sep 99, at 17:59, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > How about a Sun IPX, or Vax 11/780 maintenance sets.. > > -Lawrence (i want a Exidy) LeMay The Sun would be sort of nice. I have a Sun 3/50 but it isn't in a working condition yet. As much as I'd like to have a Vax 11/780 I don't so the maintenance set though nice wouldn't be as nice as the Exidy. :-) As I said, I don't really know what would be worth and Exidy to me. I really like mine. That's why I've been working on the special area on the website for them. I just wish I could find one of those expansion boxes. Good luck getting your Exidy. Others tell me it isn't that hard but it took me about 20 years to get mine. :-) ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From dlw at trailingedge.com Fri Sep 10 20:16:04 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: was Spectravideo 318 now Exidy Hunt In-Reply-To: <01befb17$b367daa0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: <199909110114.UAA32082@trailingedge.com> Damn... are you "real" attached to that big toe? :-) On 9 Sep 99, at 19:04, Mike wrote: > The string attaching it to my big toe would surely wake me up when you > grab it and then *there would be trouble* > > :) > Mike: dogas@leading.net ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Sep 10 20:22:03 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: was Spectravideo 318 now Exidy Hunt In-Reply-To: <199909110114.UAA32082@trailingedge.com> References: <01befb17$b367daa0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990910212203.009939d0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that David Williams may have mentioned these words: >Damn... are you "real" attached to that big toe? >:-) > >On 9 Sep 99, at 19:04, Mike wrote: > >> The string attaching it to my big toe would surely wake me up when you >> grab it and then *there would be trouble* Naw... Just remember - strings can be cut! ;-) "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From macierno at hotmail.com Fri Sep 10 20:56:17 1999 From: macierno at hotmail.com (mark acierno) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: PDP - 8 Message-ID: <19990911015618.56257.qmail@hotmail.com> well, ok but how can i get software from my mac (or pc) to the pdp8??? thanx mark >From: Kevin McQuiggin >Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > >Subject: Re: PDP - 8 >Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:07:12 -0700 (PDT) > >Hi: > >Software and systems documentation are at >http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8. > >There's more, check out metalab.unc.edu under >computer-science/history/pdp8 or >thereabouts, I may not have this URL exactly correct. > >Good luck, > >Kevin > > > > > Just got myself a pdp-8e and i was wondering if anyone out there had or >knew > > where to get software for it ??? It came with 8" drives and no dec tapes >or > > a papertape reader....... so i'm limited to floppy media. The system >seems > > to work fine and cannot wait to get it set up! > > > > > > > > mark > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > >-- >Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD >mcquiggi@sfu.ca ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 10 21:01:14 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: How'd Apple get away with it????? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990910204508.0095c100@mail.30below.com> References: Message-ID: >Whilst browsing the Apple store site, I found they are planning on >introducing Mac OS9 very soon. > >Last I heard, they couldn't use that nomenclature due to MicroWare's >trademark on OS-9. > >Was there some deal that I didn't hear about, or are the folks at Apple >just being turds??? They didn't get away with it, MicroWare is sueing them. However, as the product they're selling is _Mac OS 9_ and not _OS 9_ Apple is expected to win. Of course as someone on a Apple newsgroup pointed out, it might be cheaper for Apple to simply buy MicroWare, rather than fight a court battle. What I thought interesting was something I just read earlier today, is that apparently MicroWare has a version of OS-9 that runs on the PowerMac. Seriously, IMHO, Apple is justified in this, after all this is Version 9 of the Mac Operating System. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 10 21:09:23 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: HP2114 on ebay References: <000c01befbee$7d41b900$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <99091022121401.15519@vault.neurotica.com> Wow...that is a *lot* of hardware. A lot of very fun-looking hardware. I assume the machine is core-based? When were these systems sold? -Dave McGuire On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Jay West wrote: >In case no one who would be interested noticed it, there's a pretty nice >looking HP2114 system for sale on ebay. > >The 2114 is the first computer HP ever sold. It was an "acquired" design >from a company they purchased, and HP thought they could do a better design >so they came out with the 2100 series (followed by 21MX and 21MXE series). >But, not before adding the 2115 and 2116 to the mix which are "kissing >cousins" of the 2114. > >The one on ebay looks to be in great condition, and includes software, >manuals, a bunch of I/O cards, an ASR33, a 2748A paper tape reader, Junk >ASR33 for parts, and junk 2748B for parts. They want $450.00 for it (pretty >high I think, but maybe not that much considering it's advertised as working >and includes spares). No bidders last time I checked. > >I'm spending every ounce of spare cash I have getting my current HP systems >running, so I can't buy the thing at the moment. But - I wanted to point it >out for anyone interested in starting an early HP collection. It'd be a >great start. > >Jay West From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Sep 10 21:14:34 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: Geek House Clean Up In-Reply-To: <199909110113.UAA32077@trailingedge.com> from David Williams at "Sep 10, 1999 8:15: 4 pm" Message-ID: <199909110215.WAA24842@pechter.dyndns.org> > > How about a Sun IPX, or Vax 11/780 maintenance sets.. Well, it's clean-up time in Geek Gulch. Since I'm spending all my fun time with more recent hardware and software lately I've been given the word. "If I'm going to get new toys I've got to rid myself of the excess." I'm looking to part with a Sun (either an IPX or RaRe Opus Sparcstation clone. Anyone here interested, before it goes Ebay...) I have the 19 inch monitor with the Opus (and it's keyboard, mouse and 64mb memory and 1 420mb and 200 mb internal disk. The IPX has 64mb of new memory -- just purchased it before the clean up request. (It has no internal disk -- I do have an external 1.3gb Seagate and Sun single speed cd with it in an external 1 1/2 full ht case.) I'll be unavailable for about a week -- but if you're interested. Also getting cleaned up -- 11/23 Qbus parts and chassis (long list to follow) DEC 11/780 DW780 Unibus Adapter backplane (spare) Sun: IPX w/64mb, built in CG6, keyboard, mouse (no disk) (Runs SunOS, Solaris2, OpenBSD, NetBSD, RedHat Linux) It has no internal disk -- external 1.3gb Seagate and Sun single speed cd with it in an external 1 1/2 full ht case.) Opus Systems SparcStation2 clone with CG3, 64mb memory, 19" monitor keyboard, 420mb and 200mb internal disks. (Runs SunOS, Solaris2, OpenBSD, NetBSD, RedHat Linux) Peripherals: Hitachi External Single Speed CD (works with Suns above) CP/M boxes DEC VT180 with 2 floppy drives, software Gemini (Telcon) Zorbas - 1 working, 1 not (with spare parts and prints) DEC Rainbow with tower stand DEC VT320 DEC VT100 IBM Compatible Dos boxes: 1 XT turbo 8mhz clone With EGA monitor 1 Panasonic Sr. Partner Modems 1 Prometheus Promodem (1200) 1 Acoustic Coupler, 1 Telebit T2500 (works) 1 Telebit 1500 (works) Macintosh 1 MacPlus with 4mb and ST251N SCSI drive Printers Okidata Microline 192 printer, Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Sep 10 21:18:12 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: How'd Apple get away with it????? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19990910204508.0095c100@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990910221812.009076b0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: >What I thought interesting was something I just read earlier today, is that >apparently MicroWare has a version of OS-9 that runs on the PowerMac. Now that would be really cool! >Seriously, IMHO, Apple is justified in this, after all this is Version 9 of >the Mac Operating System. Honestly, I don't agree. Expanding on your example, what's stopping me from making 97 (very rapid) failed attempts at making a MerchWindows, and releasing a MerchWindows98? Something tells me that Micro$haft would be all over me like [profanity & expletives deleted] and that I'd lose horribly... why should Apple win just 'cause they're bigger? Besides - Mac OS X (thereby called for Version 10) is already out - they've already skipped 9. Why not call it XI, or 11, or Mac OS X Workstation, or something and leave poor ol' 9 alone? [ Editor's Note: Could you see what an American would think of Mac OS 11 in Germany? Mac OS Elf... --- We have a tourist shop here in town - they called it Das Gift Haus; except in German, "Gift" means "Poison"... I went in there once asking if they had any arsenic in stock... ;-) ] "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Sep 10 21:20:38 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: evolution of misinformation (was: Computer Museum opens in San Diego In-Reply-To: <199909050547.WAA23167@saul4.u.washington.edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990910222038.00995820@mail.30below.com> Sorry for the latecoming... but was out-of-electronic-touch for a week; just catching up. Rumor has it that Derek Peschel may have mentioned these words: >I wrote, and Fred Cisin replied: > >> > A display case shows the progression of storage disks, starting with >> > one from 1965 that's the size of a tractor-trailer tire. It held 2.5 >> > megabytes of data and had to be sandblasted to be erased. >> > Had to be sandblasted to be erased? Huh?? > >> We've seen that particular bit of silliness before. Once an authoritative >> statement of wrong information is made, others will follow, and if/when >> challenged merely refer to the authority. > >I assumed that by "particular bit of silliness" you meant "the 'erased by >sandblasting' idea" but after a little thought, I realized that maybe you >just meant "the spreading of a patently false statement". > >I wonder how such a ridiculous idea (about sandblasting, I mean) could have >gotten started in the first place. Do you have any details? > >> Quite a while back, we discussed some systems for LONG-term data storage. >> Stonehenge was [jokingly] mentioned as being a hard-sectored long term >> data storage device. (probably stationary media with moving head) >> Assuming a high data density stored as surface markings or pitting, >> sandblasting WOULD be the needed method for erasing surface data. How >> long before our silly speculation finds its way into the computer >> histories, and later generations are told that the druids invented >> hard-sectored disks? > >Well, you either want to prevent the correct information from disappearing, >or prevent the incorrect information from spreading. It's too late to >retract the joke, so you have to vigorously insist that it was a joke and >hope that your correction lasts longer than the joke itself. Why????? Wouldn't it be cool to see that stuff being taught to our great-grandkids (assuming, for myself, that I have no more heart attacks for the next 60 years) so we could say "yea, I was there when Stonehenge was sandblasted to erase the data... Later on, we re-interfaced it to our Commodore 64's and formatted it Double-Density!" Kind of a geek's "We had no shoes, we had to walk 10 miles to school (uphill both ways and snow 30 feet (9.9 meters) of snow for 11 months out of the year, of course... ;-), and we were *happy* to have a piece of bread-crust for lunch!!!" Just a (twisted) thought... "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Fri Sep 10 21:40:13 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: HP2114 on ebay In-Reply-To: <000c01befbee$7d41b900$0101a8c0@jay> from Jay West at "Sep 10, 1999 07:42:11 pm" Message-ID: <19990911024028Z13321-11839+297@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > In case no one who would be interested noticed it, there's a pretty nice > looking HP2114 system for sale on ebay. > > The 2114 is the first computer HP ever sold. It was an "acquired" design > from a company they purchased, and HP thought they could do a better design > so they came out with the 2100 series (followed by 21MX and 21MXE series). > But, not before adding the 2115 and 2116 to the mix which are "kissing > cousins" of the 2114. > > The one on ebay looks to be in great condition, and includes software, > manuals, a bunch of I/O cards, an ASR33, a 2748A paper tape reader, Junk > ASR33 for parts, and junk 2748B for parts. They want $450.00 for it (pretty > high I think, but maybe not that much considering it's advertised as working > and includes spares). No bidders last time I checked. > Yes, I've noticed it. I really don't need another CPU (I have 2 already), but I'd love to get my hands on the peripherals, especially the paper tape reader and punch. The shipping would be a bit expensive to here as well. I keeping an eye on it to see what happens. Unfortunately, the prices on eBay seem to be all over the place, sometimes things go really cheap and other times they are way over priced. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From wgriff at micrord.com Fri Sep 10 21:48:55 1999 From: wgriff at micrord.com (Walt Griffith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: s-100 Message-ID: <37D9C317.F70330A0@micrord.com> I still have my Seattle Computer Products Gazelle. 128 kb mem 2 8 inch floppies 1 5 1/4 floppy. 8086 (full 16 bit) at 8 mz Also have all the manuals for the boards. Runs as good as the day I bought it. One problem. Had to replace the disk control the first month I had it in 1983. Walt Griffith From dlw at trailingedge.com Fri Sep 10 21:48:17 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: was Spectravideo 318 now Exidy Hunt In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990910212203.009939d0@mail.30below.com> References: <199909110114.UAA32082@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <199909110246.VAA32441@trailingedge.com> On 10 Sep 99, at 21:22, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Naw... Just remember - strings can be cut! ;-) Yea but how many people could say they had an Exidy S-100 Expansion Box with string and toe attached? Ready for computing and fishing all in one. Ok, so I've been told I'm twisted. :-) ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From jlwest at tseinc.com Fri Sep 10 21:37:38 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: HP2114 on ebay Message-ID: <006401befbfe$9e182500$0101a8c0@jay> Yes, it's core based, and the cpu is entirely hardwired. I don't have my old HP catalog around at the moment, but off the top of my head an approximate year of introduction would be 1967. Somewhere I saw a list saying the 2116 was the first, followed by the 2115, then the 2114. I don't have any firm evidence to contradict that, but from what I know about the machine architectures and features and such I would be inclined to suspect that the order was 2114, 2115, 2116 instead. Don't know for sure. Jay West -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, September 10, 1999 9:13 PM Subject: Re: HP2114 on ebay > > Wow...that is a *lot* of hardware. A lot of very fun-looking hardware. > > I assume the machine is core-based? When were these systems sold? > > -Dave McGuire From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Sep 10 21:49:14 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: PDP - 8 In-Reply-To: <19990911015618.56257.qmail@hotmail.com> from "mark acierno" at Sep 10, 1999 06:56:17 PM Message-ID: <199909110249.TAA17052@fraser.sfu.ca> > well, ok but how can i get software from my mac (or pc) to the pdp8??? Take a look and the "rim" and "send" programs on highgate, and the other utilities there written by David Gesswein. Kermit is available, it will allow you to move stuff back and forth at will. Kevin > > > thanx > > mark > > > > >From: Kevin McQuiggin > >Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > > > >Subject: Re: PDP - 8 > >Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:07:12 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Hi: > > > >Software and systems documentation are at > >http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8. > > > >There's more, check out metalab.unc.edu under > >computer-science/history/pdp8 or > >thereabouts, I may not have this URL exactly correct. > > > >Good luck, > > > >Kevin > > > > > > > > Just got myself a pdp-8e and i was wondering if anyone out there had or > >knew > > > where to get software for it ??? It came with 8" drives and no dec tapes > >or > > > a papertape reader....... so i'm limited to floppy media. The system > >seems > > > to work fine and cannot wait to get it set up! > > > > > > > > > > > > mark > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > > > >-- > >Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD > >mcquiggi@sfu.ca > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Sep 10 21:58:37 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: was Spectravideo 318 now Exidy Hunt In-Reply-To: <199909110246.VAA32441@trailingedge.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990910212203.009939d0@mail.30below.com> <199909110114.UAA32082@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990910225837.0096ee10@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that David Williams may have mentioned these words: >On 10 Sep 99, at 21:22, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> Naw... Just remember - strings can be cut! ;-) > >Yea but how many people could say they had an Exidy S-100 >Expansion Box with string and toe attached? Ready for computing >and fishing all in one. Ok, so I've been told I'm twisted. :-) Tho I've no problem with the fact you're twisted, I really cannot agree with you there... I hear way too many old, desirable boxen referred to as "anchors," I wouldn't want to run the risk of the box going overboard. Now, if it was permenantly installed in the boat, i/faced to the Global Positioning System and the Fish Finder..... ;^> "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From dlw at trailingedge.com Fri Sep 10 22:06:37 1999 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: was Spectravideo 318 now Exidy Hunt In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990910225837.0096ee10@mail.30below.com> References: <199909110246.VAA32441@trailingedge.com> Message-ID: <199909110305.WAA32556@trailingedge.com> On 10 Sep 99, at 22:58, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Now, if it was permenantly installed in the boat, i/faced to the Global > Positioning System and the Fish Finder..... ;^> Now that would be cool, something to show at VCF. An Exidy Sorcerer base GPS and Sonar system complete with plug-in software in an old 8-track. Hmm, drawing maps with the Sorcerers user-definable character set. As if I didn't have enough to keep me busy as it was. :-) ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 10 22:33:44 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: How'd Apple get away with it????? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990910221812.009076b0@mail.30below.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990910204508.0095c100@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: >>What I thought interesting was something I just read earlier today, is that >>apparently MicroWare has a version of OS-9 that runs on the PowerMac. > >Now that would be really cool! I find it hard to believe though, if true I tend to suspect that the number of machines supported is likely to be smaller than the number supported by BeOS. >>Seriously, IMHO, Apple is justified in this, after all this is Version 9 of >>the Mac Operating System. > >Honestly, I don't agree. Expanding on your example, what's stopping me from >making 97 (very rapid) failed attempts at making a MerchWindows, and >releasing a MerchWindows98? > >Something tells me that Micro$haft would be all over me like [profanity & >expletives deleted] and that I'd lose horribly... why should Apple win just >'cause they're bigger? Well, they've had something like 15 years to reach this point. Although I have to admit Apple should have seen this problem back around 7.5 or 7.6 when they switched from calling it _System_ to _Mac OS_. Personally I still prefer _System_. >Besides - Mac OS X (thereby called for Version 10) is already out - they've >already skipped 9. Why not call it XI, or 11, or Mac OS X Workstation, or >something and leave poor ol' 9 alone? Yes, BUT this is where it gets wierd and interesting. "Mac OS X Server", is out, however, "Mac OS X Workstation" will not be out until after "Mac OS 9". Confused yet? Worse, "Mac OS 9" was originally called "Mac OS 8.7" in the Beta's, they switched in mid-Beta to calling it "Mac OS 9". The original plan was to go from "Mac OS 8.7" to "Mac OS X Workstation". The change in plans might have something to do with what a drastic change in the OS has been made between 8.6 and 9. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dastar at ncal.verio.com Fri Sep 10 22:43:35 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: Stuff in Richardson, Texas Message-ID: I'm no longer subscribed to ClassicCmp so if anyone has been trying to contact me please do so directly at sellam@siconic.com. If anyone was still interested in the misc. computer stuff in Richardson, Texas, please contact me directly and I'll give you the contact information. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Sep 10 15:23:23 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: Spectravideo 318 In-Reply-To: John Honniball "Re: Spectravideo 318" (Sep 10, 16:44) References: Message-ID: <9909102123.ZM1213@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 10, 16:44, John Honniball wrote: > Is it true that the Exidy's ROM cartridge is housed in an > 8-track tape case? Yes, it is. With some crude hackery to remove internal pillars to make room for a small board holding 4 ROMs or EPROMS (2716 or equivalent) and a 74LS chip (74LS138, from memory). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From hansp at digiweb.com Fri Sep 10 22:59:22 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:15 2005 Subject: Differentiating chips (Was: Newbie member saying References: <199909102025.QAA30161@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <37D9D39A.CB71E14A@digiweb.com> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > I don't think so. The reset vector is hardcoded (it's part of the BIOS) > and the code in the BIOS checks a certain memory location (40:something, > don't recall of the top of my head) and if the contents are $1234, then it's > a software reset and not a powerup reset. I don't recall all the details of > what happens when a soft reset happens but the PC was the first computer > where a user program couldn't grab the reset vector. Close but not quite correct. At reset, one of the first things the BIOS does is to read value out of the CMOS NVRAM, that value determines how the reset is to be treated. There is a value you can write into CMOS to cause the machine to restart at a user supplied vector. I think, I'd have to check the source to be sure, that you can recover the processor type if you use this mechanism. The $1234 value you mentioned is used simply to skip the memory test and other time consuming POST activities which really need only be done on power up. In fact most modern PC's that I work with ignore the $1234 value and do a full POST anyway. If anyone wants the details of the user reset vector let me know and I'll look it up. Regards Hans B Pufal From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Sep 10 23:21:49 1999 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: Never Mind: MicroVAX 3 References: <990906170034.20200141@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <37D9D8DD.1F54DE45@idirect.com> >CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >ALSO, I am about to try out (if I can get a degausser) some TK50 tapes > >in a TK70. But I want to be able to have both the TK50 and a TK70 > >tape drive on line. > You certainly can! Jerome Fine replies: I mentioned the problem to a friend of mine and hopefully will be able to borrow the degausser within a few days. I did not doubt that both the TK50 and the TK70 can be on line at the same time - the only questions was how to set the CSR on the controller board - a bit of a waste having to have one controller for each tape drive. But I now have the cable to connect TWO BA23 boxes so that will be all that I could ever need. Has anyone ever tried to connect THREE BA23 boxes? I rarely use RD5x drives any more since the supply of RD53 drives are all just about dead and I don't have many RD54 drives. Plus I do have a bunch of 600 MByte ESDI drives, so why would I bother with the RD5x drives any more? In addition, I just acquired about 500 * TK50 tapes which were already in the dumpster - well, about 100 feet away and in a pile of garbage already designated for the final resting place. Most of it was old documentation (company private which I did not even touch), but mixed in was about half a grey wall for V5.4 - a bit sad for you VMS fellows which I can understand. There were also some RC25 cartridges and there may be a broken RC25 available at the end of the month along with a couple of RL02 drives and the cabinets. Anyone interested? Please reply immediately since the end of the month is the deadline and I may be able to make the drives and cabinets available - local pickup in Toronto ONLY - sometime next week would be the window of opportunity to arrange anything - along with some RL02 packs. > > I have done a SYSGEN and the MUX.SYS device driver > >allows two devices, (MU0: and MU1:), but I don't have the dip switch > >settings for alternate CSR values. Can anyone help? PLEASE? > On both the TQK50 and TQK70, the CSR is set by jumpers, not by DIPswitches. > (the DIPswitches on a TK50 actually set the rev level reported by TMSCP > inquiry commands, which changed more often than the CSR's at one point!) > The default CSR is 774500. The CSR must be a multiple of 4, so the low two > bits are always zero, and the CSR must be in the I/O page, so the high > 5 bits are always on. The in-between bits are set with the jumpers near > the edge connectors. Seen with the edge connectors to the bottom, the > default looks like: Thanks for the hint about where to look for how the CSR is set. I located the location on the TK50 and there were 11 jumpers set as follows for the CSR at 774500: IIOOIOIOOOO where I=in/O=out I presume that the CSR which I SYSGENed at 774510 would require the jumpers to be: IIOOIOIOOIO I was a bit confused over the method you used to describe the jumpers, so I tried this representation. It seems correct and I will try it the next time I power up the system. For the moment, I swapped the TK50 for the TK70 so that I can test the TK50 tapes after they are "fixed". At that point I will have both a TK70 and a TK50. Anyone have a spare TK70 they are willing to part with for little more than postage. I will want to have a backup drive if I start to use the TK70 and depend on the TK70 media for storage backup. Plus, I have not yet had time to get the modified UNMAC files into a form ready to send. Maybe just an RX33 would be best - I can get all the source on an RX50, but I need to include the OBJ files and I also like to include the SAV files as well. Plus I need to upgrade my comments a bit as well. Is there a deadline to have it included on the CD-ROM and how is that project going? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From donm at cts.com Fri Sep 10 23:56:24 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, John Rollins wrote: > > .___.___ > > /.......\ > > |.3...4.| 1. +5V > > |...5...| 2. Shield > > |.2...1.| 3. +12V > > \_______/ 4. GND > > ......... 5. -5V > I think I found my problem! No, I just don't think... I'm absolutely sure > of it! > OK, pin 1 was OK. +5v. AAAGGHHH! Pin 5 is -12v!!!!! Pin 3 reads +12v. Aargh! I found that glitch and neglected to correct it :( The -12v figure is correct. > Ouch... So, is my A500 pretty much fried now? Guess I'll now as soon as I No, it should not have famaged your A500, and the -12v is correct. Sorry! - don > get the PS fixed(if it can be... any ideas as to what might be wrong? any > common failures in A500 PS's?). > BTW, in response to earlier posts about loose chips, I finally found my > Torx set(needed a T10, and I have TONS of T15's sitting around for my Macs) > and everything inside looked okay. No loose chips, didn't notice anything > blown up, no loose screws inside... Although the tabs on the shield for the > motherboard were kinda annoying. Not to mention all the Torx screws. I'm > glad there weren't any deeply recessed torx screws in that thing! It would > have been a disaster. > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html | > | orham@qth.net list admin KD7BCY | > | ham-mac@qth.net Portland, OR | > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > From a2k at one.net Sat Sep 11 00:11:59 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A500 PSU pinout: ___ ___ | V | | 3 4 | | 5 | | 2 1 | ------- Sorry about the ASCII drawing. The V it the notch at the top. 1 +5 VDC 2 Shield GND 3 +12 VDC 4 Signal GND 5 -12VDC Kevin From black at gco.apana.org.au Fri Sep 10 23:45:53 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! References: Message-ID: <000201befc14$91cc66b0$623786cb@primus.com.au> > I think I found my problem! No, I just don't think... I'm absolutely sure > of it! > OK, pin 1 was OK. +5v. AAAGGHHH! Pin 5 is -12v!!!!! Pin 3 reads +12v. > Ouch... So, is my A500 pretty much fried now? Guess I'll now as soon as I > get the PS fixed(if it can be... any ideas as to what might be wrong? any > common failures in A500 PS's?). Happened often, there were third party p/s's available that replaced the 500's brick.... I know, I had to buy one of 'em after my original died & an attempted repair didn't work :-( cheers, Lance From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 07:36:43 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: new computers... Finally! Message-ID: <19990911123643.23904.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lance Lyon wrote: > > any ideas as to what might be wrong? any > > common failures in A500 PS's?). > > Happened often, there were third party p/s's available that replaced the > 500's brick.... I know, I had to buy one of 'em after my original died & an > attempted repair didn't work :-( The "Bigfoot" PSU for the A500 is just a 200-240W PC supply with an A500 cable coming out of it instead of the "standard" P8/P9 cables. If you aren't afraid to solder, it's easy to make - get a cheap AT PSU, open it up, remove the PCB, unsolder the old P8/P9 connectors, noting which colors of wires go to which holes in the PCB, match the voltages for the A500 cable and solder them in the correct holes. Some PSU PCBs have the output voltage pads labeled. You can also cut the old wires and splice on the A500 power cable on the inside or the outside of the PSU enclosure, but I prefer a sturdier construction. -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Sep 11 08:14:23 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: evolution of misinformation (was: Computer Museum opens in San Diego In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990910222038.00995820@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Sep 10, 1999 10:20:38 pm" Message-ID: <199909111314.JAA00732@pechter.dyndns.org> > Sorry for the latecoming... but was out-of-electronic-touch for a week; > just catching up. > > Rumor has it that Derek Peschel may have mentioned these words: > >I wrote, and Fred Cisin replied: > > > >> > A display case shows the progression of storage disks, starting with > >> > one from 1965 that's the size of a tractor-trailer tire. It held 2.5 > >> > megabytes of data and had to be sandblasted to be erased. Cute line... > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. Actually, the disks I used to see that size (5 or 6 foot diameter) were used by a couple of my fellow DEC Field Engineers as picnic table tops when the drives were decommissioned. Aluminum makes a nice weatherproof table top. (They must've come from KL10s or KA10s or KI10s, though. I've never seen anything that large on minis...) Don't know how the iron oxide does though. Perhaps they were painted when used. --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From drd at mv.mv.com Sat Sep 11 08:16:13 1999 From: drd at mv.mv.com (David R. Dick) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: HP2114 on ebay In-Reply-To: <000c01befbee$7d41b900$0101a8c0@jay> from "Jay West" at Sep 10, 99 07:42:11 pm Message-ID: <199909111316.JAA25801@mv.mv.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 635 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990911/2e4c2dd1/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 11 08:22:20 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: evolution of misinformation (was: Computer Museum opens in San Diego Message-ID: <990911092220.202004b8@trailing-edge.com> >Actually, the disks I used to see that size (5 or 6 foot diameter) were >used by a couple of my fellow DEC Field Engineers as picnic table tops >when the drives were decommissioned. Aluminum makes a nice weatherproof >table top. (They must've come from KL10s or KA10s or KI10s, though. >I've never seen anything that large on minis...) > >Don't know how the iron oxide does though. Perhaps they were painted >when used. Iron oxide is *already* rust :-). The binder used to stick the oxide particles to the surface, though, might not deal well with exposure to sunlight or high temperatures. Tim. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Sep 11 11:05:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: PDP - 8 Message-ID: <199909111605.MAA17230@world.std.com> < allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >All the DEC systems that use MMJ connector take any of the DEC keyboards >(LK201,LK301,LK401), those are used on ALL VTxxx terminals, Pro3xx, >Rainbow to name just a few. it should be easy to find. Someone, who is not a subscriber, sent me a message asking if a LK501 would work on a DECstation. Not having seen a LK501, I don't know. Does the LK501 also use the same connector and therefore will work on a DECstation? TIA Mike From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Sep 11 11:35:02 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: HP2114 on ebay In-Reply-To: <199909111316.JAA25801@mv.mv.com> References: <000c01befbee$7d41b900$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990911093502.0354c7a8@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:16 AM 09/11/1999 -0400, it was written: >> >> The 2114 is the first computer HP ever sold. It was an "acquired" design >> from a company they purchased, and HP thought they could do a better design >> so they came out with the 2100 series (followed by 21MX and 21MXE series). >> But, not before adding the 2115 and 2116 to the mix which are "kissing >> cousins" of the 2114. > >Was there something like an HP1000? I seem to remember being loosely >associated with a project that involved one. Where might that fit in? Well, that one becomes a matter of tracking the ever changing sequences of model and 'system' numbers which often seemed to change at the whim of the marketing people. (and HP is/was not alone in this) To explain: In my collection I have a pair of units displaying the ID "HP-1000F" on their front panels, but if you dig further (inside) you find a tag which identifies the unit as an HP 2117F CPU. It appears that often the most prominant ID referred to the 'system' configuration where the 'computer' in whole was known as an "HP-1000F", while the actual CPU (chassis) is an HP 2117F. All quite confusing (annoying) after a while... B^} -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From schoedel at kw.igs.net Sat Sep 11 12:10:37 1999 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: LK501 Question (Was Re: Vaxstation video) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Someone, who is not a subscriber, sent me a message asking if a LK501 >would work on a DECstation. Not having seen a LK501, I don't know. >Does the LK501 also use the same connector and therefore will work >on a DECstation? It depends which DECstation. Unless I am getting them mixed up, the LK501 has a different connector and protocol than the LK201; the Personal DECstation 5000/xx uses the LK501, while all the others (I think) use the LK201. -- Kevin Schoedel schoedel@kw.igs.net From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Sep 11 12:57:07 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: was Spectravideo 318 now Exidy Hunt In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990910212203.009939d0@mail.30below.com> References: <199909110114.UAA32082@trailingedge.com> <01befb17$b367daa0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Message-ID: >>> The string attaching it to my big toe would surely wake me up when you >>> grab it and then *there would be trouble* > >Naw... Just remember - strings can be cut! ;-) Having the toe on the end of the string would sure increase the collectibility, adding to the "story" of the system. A real showpiece for any display. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Sep 11 13:42:07 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: HP2114 on ebay In-Reply-To: <199909111316.JAA25801@mv.mv.com> (drd@mv.mv.com) References: <199909111316.JAA25801@mv.mv.com> Message-ID: <19990911184207.17476.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jay wrote about the HP 2114/2115/2116 minicomputers from the late 1960s. David Dick asks: > Was there something like an HP1000? I seem to remember being loosely > associated with a project that involved one. Where might that fit in? The HP 1000 series was essentially the later 21xx processors sold with a marketing focus toward embedded systems. For a while some of the processors were given both 21xx and 1000 series designations, and IIRC the actual ordering numbers continued to be 21xx for quite a while. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Sep 11 14:25:42 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: LK501 Question (Was Re: Vaxstation video) Message-ID: <199909111925.PAA01286@world.std.com> Dave Dameron, Please e-mail me. I need your e-mail address. Thanks. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Sep 11 19:43:43 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990911194343.3c5f3f68@mailhost.intellistar.net> I just returned from the Melbourne hamfest. I picked up a Osbourne Executive complete with all the disks and manuals from the original owner, a Heathkit Hero Robot and a HP 3468 meter with HP-IL interface. :-) Found out later that I missed a Lisa keyboard. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 11 19:54:29 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! References: <3.0.1.16.19990911194343.3c5f3f68@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <99091120551400.17590@vault.neurotica.com> On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, Joe wrote: >a Heathkit Hero Robot and a HP 3468 meter with HP-IL interface. :-) Found Ahh, I've got a 3468 as well. What a great multimeter! HP-IL is *cool*. -Dave McGuire From marvin at rain.org Sat Sep 11 20:47:44 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: Neat Find References: <3.0.1.16.19990911194343.3c5f3f68@mailhost.intellistar.net> <99091120551400.17590@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <37DB0640.5827BDF1@rain.org> It seems like about once a year I find something of value at one of the thrift stores. Recently I heard about an Altair on display in the front window of a local thrift store, but so far, haven't been able to find or verify that. However, yesterday I managed to get a Commodore Pet 2001 at a local thrift store for $1.91! Bargains like this are getting harder to find, but at least they still do exist! From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sun Sep 12 01:52:13 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: Apple II gs problem In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990910162622.2327b314@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Sep 10, 1999 04:26:22 PM Message-ID: <199909120652.AAA05336@calico.litterbox.com> Probably it's set to boot from a specific slot. My gs's are all taken apart Atm so I don't remember the control sequence to get into the system setup screen and change that, but it's control open apple something. maybe return? > > Hi all, > > I just picked up a nice Apple II gs system but I can't make it work. It > keeps saying "check starttup device". I've tried several disk drives and > five different disks that should be bootable. Can anyone tell me more about > what it's looking for or what I might be doing wrong? I've never used one > of these so I'm not familar with it. > > Joe > -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From hansp at digiweb.com Sun Sep 12 04:42:43 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: 1970 computer auction Message-ID: <37DB7593.405A2390@digiweb.com> I am doing some research for an exhibition we are putting oon in October and came across this nugget which I thought you all might enjoy: In 1970, the first Parke-Bernet auction of computers is a flop. The prestigious New York auctioneer is unable to sell used mainfrmaes: an IBM 7070 (a million dollar machine) sells for 2$2,250; a UNIVAC Solid State 80 computer (a $300,000 machine) sells for $485. No one will pay %15,000 for an IBM 7094 computer which in its heyday was a $3 million machine. Things are a little different now.... _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From danburrows at mindspring.com Sun Sep 12 06:00:13 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: LK501 Question (Was Re: Vaxstation video) Message-ID: <004f01befd0e$f52673e0$0f0a0a0a@l166> The LK501 will not work. It has a different connector - I checked some I have last night just to make sure my memory served correctly. It has a modular plug with the locking tabs on both sides. Totally different from the RJ11 style on the LK201 and LK401. It also has a plug on the keyboard for a hockey puck mouse that has the same king of plug. Not the normal PS2 style VSxxx-AA connector again. The plugs remind me of the HP keyboard connectors from the Apollo days. Dan > >Yep, LK501 too, same connector same hole. DEC was very big on having one >keyboard deign that any group could use in the company. The only oddball >in the post LS200 era is the LK250 (for PC use) which has a different >connector(s). > >Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 12 13:21:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: <99091120551400.17590@vault.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 11, 99 08:54:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1170 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990912/6843e8fa/attachment.ksh From max82 at surfree.com Sun Sep 12 14:52:31 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! Message-ID: <000601befd58$5c2f36a0$23021a26@surfree.surfree.com> >I'll go along with that. It was/is a very well-desinged interface. At a >high level it looks remarkably like HPIB/IEEE488 (to the extent that >there's an HP interface -- the 82169 IIRC -- that transparently links >HPIB devices to an HPIL controller or HPIL devices to an HPIB >controller). The low level (I have the specs somewhere) is pretty simple >as well... Why does a multimeter need a data bus? From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Sep 12 15:01:30 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: <000601befd58$5c2f36a0$23021a26@surfree.surfree.com> (max82@surfree.com) References: <000601befd58$5c2f36a0$23021a26@surfree.surfree.com> Message-ID: <19990912200130.23456.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Why does a multimeter need a data bus? So the system controller (computer) can monitor the thing. Imagine use on a production line or other industrial setting. From jritorto at nut.net Sun Sep 12 15:34:18 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: How'd Apple get away with it????? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990910221812.009076b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: Hey Roger, I've seen that gift shop and made the same connection. Do you live near Beaver Falls, PA? jake > [ Editor's Note: Could you see what an American would think of Mac OS 11 in > Germany? Mac OS Elf... --- We have a tourist shop here in town - they > called it Das Gift Haus; except in German, "Gift" means "Poison"... I went > in there once asking if they had any arsenic in stock... ;-) ] From jritorto at nut.net Sun Sep 12 15:56:00 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: LK501 Question (Was Re: Vaxstation video) In-Reply-To: <199909111925.PAA01286@world.std.com> Message-ID: Where can I get one of those LK250s? I'm always hitting capslock on my dumb pc keyboard after a pdp11 session... jake ps I have a KB here that's just like an LK201 but with a larger MMJ and a SWITCH SESSION key. What's that for? On Sat, 11 Sep 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > > Yep, LK501 too, same connector same hole. DEC was very big on having one > keyboard deign that any group could use in the company. The only oddball > in the post LS200 era is the LK250 (for PC use) which has a different > connector(s). > > Allison > > > From jritorto at nut.net Sun Sep 12 16:01:53 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: How'd Apple get away with it????? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, that was supposed to be private... On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Hey Roger, I've seen that gift shop and made the same connection. Do you > live near Beaver Falls, PA? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 12 16:35:57 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: <000601befd58$5c2f36a0$23021a26@surfree.surfree.com> from "Max Eskin" at Sep 12, 99 03:52:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 303 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990912/3081c383/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Sep 12 17:59:07 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! Message-ID: <199909122259.SAA11588@world.std.com> <>I'll go along with that. It was/is a very well-desinged interface. At a <>high level it looks remarkably like HPIB/IEEE488 (to the extent that <>there's an HP interface -- the 82169 IIRC -- that transparently links <>HPIB devices to an HPIL controller or HPIL devices to an HPIB <>controller). The low level (I have the specs somewhere) is pretty simple <>as well... < < References: <37dbe1fd@news1.prserv.net> Message-ID: <5U7cN1IRu23wbMDeZ0m6Sob9Am03@4ax.com> If any of our Florida folk (Joe? You out there?) want to rescue some PS/2's, now's the time. Looks like they're going to be dumpstered otherwise. Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:25:08 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware you wrote: >>From: "Fred Mau" >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware >>Subject: Going once, going twice... >>Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:25:08 -0400 >>Lines: 17 >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 >>NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.101.174.177 >>Message-ID: <37dbe1fd@news1.prserv.net> >>X-Trace: 12 Sep 1999 17:25:17 GMT, 32.101.174.177 >>Organization: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & News Services >>X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!calwebnntp!pants.skycache.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed2.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news1.prserv.net!32.101.174.177 >>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware:1368 >> >>I'm throwing the following systems in the dumpster unless someone wants to >>pay shipping on either systems or pieces/parts. Everything works, I just >>don't have the room. Systems include case/motherboard/power supply/floppy. >>No memory or hard drive, I'm keeping that for myself except as listed below. >>E-mail me if you're interested. >> >>8540-3T2 >>8555-T61 w/ 60 meg HDD >>8557-259 >>8570-161 w/ 60 meg HDD >> >> Fred Mau >> Orlando, Florida >> fredmau@ibm.net >> >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Sep 13 07:57:16 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: HELP! Osbourne drives Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990913075716.3eafc670@mailhost.intellistar.net> I played with the Osbourne Executive yesterday. I can't get it to boot. All it says is "boot error". It says the same thing with no disks in it, MS DOS disks in it and with the door open so the message doesn't tell me anything. I tried swapping drives, reseating ICs and cables and everything that I could think of. It booted once and I did DIR on both drives with no problems, it almost booted several times but filled the screeen with garbage and locked up. I tried disks from three different sets including a set of new copies from Don Maslin so I'm sure the the disks aren't the problem. Any ideas? Does anyone know if DS drives can be used in these? The drives in it are ALPS SS DD. I took the drives out and checked them, the heads and drives are clean and the speed is right. I don't think there is anything wrong with them. Several people have posted messages here in the past about problems with Osbournes that wouldn't boot. Did you ever get them working? What have you found wrong with them? Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Sep 13 08:09:09 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: References: <99091120551400.17590@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990913080909.2307fece@mailhost.intellistar.net> Tony, At 07:21 PM 9/12/99 +0100, you wrote: >> Ahh, I've got a 3468 as well. What a great multimeter! HP-IL is *cool*. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >I'll go along with that. It was/is a very well-desinged interface. At a >high level it looks remarkably like HPIB/IEEE488 (to the extent that >there's an HP interface -- the 82169 IIRC -- that transparently links >HPIB devices to an HPIL controller or HPIL devices to an HPIB >controller). The low level (I have the specs somewhere) is pretty simple >as well... The best (only?) low level reference to HP_IL is "The HP-IL System: An Introductory Guide to the Hewlett-Packard Interface Loop" by Kane, Harper and Ushijima published by Osbourne/McGraw Hill. It is (was?) available through any book store. It's manadatory if you're interested in low level details about HP-IL. > >I just wish I had more of it. I've got it on some HP handhelds (71B, >75C), on my 150, and that's about it. I've got some of the interfaces >(RS232, HPIB, GPIO, Video), but no storage devices or printers (yet!!). ThinkJet printers and 9114 disk drives are fairly common if you look for them. A lot of times you'll find them bundled with HP 110 Portable computers. The set of all three shows up on E-bay fairly often and usually sells for a reasonable price. I saw a ThinkJet, 9114 and 110 that sold at the hamfest this weekend for $20 with a pile of HP-IL cables and several manuals. Unfortunately it sold before I found it. > > >I picked up an HP3421 (I think that's the number -- the data >logger/multimeter thingy) with HPIL and HPIB on it for a couple of pounds >at a factory sale aa few years back. Nobody else knew what it was. I >didn't really know what it was, but it said HP, and looked interesting >:-)... Still not figured out how to make it do something useful, but it >returns a sane ID when probed on the HPIL so I guess it's doing something. > The 3421 is really nice, doubley so both interfaces. You can use it on HP 85s and the like with the HP-IB or on HP 71s and the other calculators with the IL interface. If you got any of the optional plug in cards in the back send me the part numbers off of them and I'll tell you what they are. I have a manual for the 3421 if you need a copy. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Sep 13 08:15:48 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: FW: RESCUE NEEDED -- Going once, going twice... In-Reply-To: <5U7cN1IRu23wbMDeZ0m6Sob9Am03@4ax.com> References: <37dbe1fd@news1.prserv.net> <37dbe1fd@news1.prserv.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990913081548.3feff3de@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Bruce, Yes, I'm here but I don't need any PS/2s. I see tons of them dumped all the time. I have picked a few nice ones but I don't have the space to keep them and I can't even give them away so I don't bother to pick them up any more. BTW I passed up FIVE IBM PS/2 P70s this weekend for the same reason. That shows how picky that I have HAD to get. If anyone wants these PS/2s I can help out with getting them but I don't have room to keep them very long and I don't have time to pack and ship them so you'll have to come and get them. Joe At 06:11 PM 9/12/99 -0700, Bruce wrote: > If any of our Florida folk (Joe? You out there?) want to rescue some >PS/2's, now's the time. Looks like they're going to be dumpstered >otherwise. > > Attachment follows. > >-=-=- -=-=- > >On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:25:08 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware you >wrote: > >>>From: "Fred Mau" >>>Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware >>>Subject: Going once, going twice... >>>Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:25:08 -0400 >>>Lines: 17 >>>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 >>>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 >>>NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.101.174.177 >>>Message-ID: <37dbe1fd@news1.prserv.net> >>>X-Trace: 12 Sep 1999 17:25:17 GMT, 32.101.174.177 >>>Organization: Global Network Services - Remote Access Mail & News Services >>>X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net >>>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!calwebnntp!pants.skycache.com!news.maxwell.s yr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed2.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!n ews1.prserv.net!32.101.174.177 >>>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware:1368 >>> >>>I'm throwing the following systems in the dumpster unless someone wants to >>>pay shipping on either systems or pieces/parts. Everything works, I just >>>don't have the room. Systems include case/motherboard/power supply/floppy. >>>No memory or hard drive, I'm keeping that for myself except as listed below. >>>E-mail me if you're interested. >>> >>>8540-3T2 >>>8555-T61 w/ 60 meg HDD >>>8557-259 >>>8570-161 w/ 60 meg HDD >>> >>> Fred Mau >>> Orlando, Florida >>> fredmau@ibm.net >>> >>> > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, >Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com >Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com >"...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, >event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." > From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Mon Sep 13 08:15:36 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: Differentiating chips (Was: Newbie member saying Message-ID: <802567EB.00491635.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> > Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > >> I don't think so. The reset vector is hardcoded (it's part of the BIOS) >> and the code in the BIOS checks a certain memory location (40:something, >> don't recall of the top of my head) and if the contents are $1234, then it's >> a software reset and not a powerup reset. I don't recall all the details of >> what happens when a soft reset happens but the PC was the first computer >> where a user program couldn't grab the reset vector. I didn't catch this one the first time round. What exactly did you mean by "the first computer where a user program couldn't grab the reset vector"? If you mean that the vector is not in alterable memory, the PET springs to mind - 6502 has the vector in locations $FFFC and $FFFD. On the PET this is ROM, and the routine it sends you to does not look in RAM... If you mean the reset vector was not in the computer's address space, and so incapable of alteration even if you put RAM there, does the Z80 not count? The reset vector is always zero, and the machine (afaik) always starts executing code at that address. Most Z80 machines allow this to be made RAM, but plenty don't - Sinclair springs to mind. In my day it was (among 8-bit home computer people) considered quite a luxury if you could redirect the reset vector... Or did you mean the first Intel 88/86 machine? I am puzzled. Philip. This E-mail message is private and confidential and should only be read by those to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, reproduction, modification or publication of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please delete the message from your computer and destroy any copies. This message is not intended to be relied upon by any person without subsequent written confirmation of its contents. This company therefore disclaims all responsibility and accepts no liability of any kind which may arise from any person acting, or refraining from acting, upon the contents of the message without having had subsequent written confirmation. If you have received this communication in error, or if any problems occur in transmission please notify us immediately by telephone on +44 (0)2476 425474 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Sep 13 11:10:30 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: Britain is Great (Back from the Island) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990910164501.233f76c8@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <199909101536.RAA28739@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199909131411.QAA18690@horus.mch.sni.de> > >AND - tataaaa - an HP 46 Calculator with installed display > >option, including the original plastic coffer and in _realy_ > >good (working) condition at (another ta taa) only GBP 3 !!! > >(Well, the Old lady asked if three pounds may be to much ...) > Cool find! Especially in the UK. I have five of them including two > with consecutive serial numbers. I found four of them at one time at > Patrick AFB. One of the most usefull functions of this list, in a psychological sense: It helps to avoide any ocurance of the GröFaz syndrome (Gr"oFaz for the caracterly chalanged). As soon as one thinks he scored a way cool (K3wl) find, someone pops up with at least two other ces of the find ... > What do you want to know about them? BTW I know the display > was listed as an option but I think they ALL came with it. I've never heard > of one that didn't have it. Sounds logical - What I want ? EVERYTHING :) AFAIK the 46 is just like the 45, but with Printer and a 'real' keyboard. Gruss H. -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Sep 13 09:32:21 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: HELP! Osbourne drives In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990913075716.3eafc670@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Joe wrote: > I played with the Osbourne Executive yesterday. I can't get it to boot. > All it says is "boot error". It says the same thing with no disks in it, > MS DOS disks in it and with the door open so the message doesn't tell me > anything. Well... from the description above, the first thing that comes to mind is that the 'Executive', like all of the Osborne machines is a CP/M machine, and will likely never run any form of MicroSquish DOS... B^} In more general terms, the message indicates that the unit is unable to read the boot sector(s), but without a proper set of diskettes it will be difficult to troubleshoot reliabily... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Sep 13 11:10:33 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: Britain is Great (Back from the Island) In-Reply-To: <199909131411.QAA18690@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <3.0.1.16.19990910164501.233f76c8@mailhost.intellistar.net> <199909101536.RAA28739@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990913111033.3b273f36@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hans, At 04:11 PM 9/13/99 +1, you wrote: > >> >AND - tataaaa - an HP 46 Calculator with installed display >> >option, including the original plastic coffer and in _realy_ >> >good (working) condition at (another ta taa) only GBP 3 !!! >> >(Well, the Old lady asked if three pounds may be to much ...) > >> Cool find! Especially in the UK. I have five of them including two >> with consecutive serial numbers. I found four of them at one time at >> Patrick AFB. > >One of the most usefull functions of this list, in a >psychological sense: It helps to avoide any ocurance >of the Gr?Faz syndrome (Gr"oFaz for the caracterly >chalanged). As soon as one thinks he scored a way >cool (K3wl) find, someone pops up with at least two >other ces of the find ... We have to keep your head from getting too big :-) > >> What do you want to know about them? BTW I know the display >> was listed as an option but I think they ALL came with it. I've never heard >> of one that didn't have it. > >Sounds logical - What I want ? EVERYTHING :) >AFAIK the 46 is just like the 45, but with Printer >and a 'real' keyboard. Yes but internally it is completely different from the 45. It uses mainly TTL chips instead of the hybrid CMOS ones that the 45 uses. It uses a *LOT* more ICs than the 45. It uses a printer made by Seiko. A lot of calculators of that vintage use the same printer. The 46 was designed and built by the Loveland Colorado Division of HP. The same same division that built the 9800 series machines like the 9825, 9835 and 9845. The 45 was designed and built by the Advanced Product division in Copertino california. The 81 and 46 look the same on the outside except for the functions but all the internal parts are differnt except for the LEDS, power supply and printer. The HP 9805 is supposed to be the same style machine and very similar to the 46 and 81 but I've never seen a 9805 so I don't know any more than that. The 46, 81 and 9805 are all covered in the same service manual. I have a lot more back ground material on them but I'll have to find it. If you have any specific questions I'll try to answer them. Joe >Gruss >H. > >-- >Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. >H.Achternbusch > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Sep 13 12:34:17 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: How'd Apple get away with it????? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990910221812.009076b0@mail.30below.com> References: Message-ID: <199909131535.RAA22841@horus.mch.sni.de> > >What I thought interesting was something I just read earlier today, is that > >apparently MicroWare has a version of OS-9 that runs on the PowerMac. > Now that would be really cool! Well, _if_ I buy an Apple PC, I'd go for Mac OS, if I want to run other OSes, I'd prefer cheap PC-Boxes. > >Seriously, IMHO, Apple is justified in this, after all this is Version 9 of > >the Mac Operating System. > Honestly, I don't agree. Expanding on your example, what's stopping me from > making 97 (very rapid) failed attempts at making a MerchWindows, and > releasing a MerchWindows98? Well, if your fast attempts take also >10 years, you might get the same credit. > Something tells me that Micro$haft would be all over me like [profanity & > expletives deleted] and that I'd lose horribly... why should Apple win just > 'cause they're bigger? As long as simple logic (like the one obviously for me) is still an argument at court, the naming of (Mac)OS 9(.0) is valid (Of course I know that simple logic, or logic at all, is no reason for court decisions about brand name rights). Also one may keep in mind that MacOS 9 means MacOS _Version_ 9, while in OS/9, the version number is still to be added (of course, the 9 in here lost it's meaning long ago). > Besides - Mac OS X (thereby called for Version 10) is already out - they've > already skipped 9. Why not call it XI, or 11, or Mac OS X Workstation, or > something and leave poor ol' 9 alone? Not exactly, they called it X, since they are still unshure if it can be delivered as a follow up to MacOS 9(.x) - MacOS X is a little bit like Microsofts promise that NT will be the only Windows after 95^H8^H^H2000. > [ Editor's Note: Could you see what an American would think of Mac OS 11 in > Germany? Mac OS Elf... Think of it like one and one (like in meone or someone) - you'll always know what it's about - it's a bit like the VIC 64 story - it took an american mind to have this twisted idea influencing your product name. > --- We have a tourist shop here in town - they > called it Das Gift Haus; except in German, "Gift" means "Poison"... I went > in there once asking if they had any arsenic in stock... ;-) ] Well, ja. This isn't uncomon - Der/Die/Das is recogniced by most Americans as German versions of the/the (and even if not, it can be skipped), and Haus will go well as 'creative' written version of House (kewl, isn't it ?), so most Americanos get the meaning, and maybe the impression of something genuine German (*g*), while using 'Das Geschenkhaus' or more aprobiate 'Der Geschenkladen' would result in some dumb looking faces (Listmembers excepted). Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Sep 13 11:16:44 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: HELP! Osbourne drives In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990913075716.3eafc670@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990913111644.39871ffc@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:32 AM 9/13/99 -0700, Jim wrote: >On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Joe wrote: > >> I played with the Osbourne Executive yesterday. I can't get it to boot. >> All it says is "boot error". It says the same thing with no disks in it, >> MS DOS disks in it and with the door open so the message doesn't tell me >> anything. > >Well... from the description above, the first thing that comes to mind is >that the 'Executive', like all of the Osborne machines is a CP/M machine, >and will likely never run any form of MicroSquish DOS... B^} I know that. I just wanted to see if I could make it generate any other error messages. Evidently it can't, it reports the same message for ANY disk related problem. That's why I said that the error message doesn't mean much. > >In more general terms, the message indicates that the unit is unable to >read the boot sector(s), but without a proper set of diskettes it will be >difficult to troubleshoot reliabily... I have three good sets of disks including a recent set from Don M. I'm sure it isn't a disk problem and I'm fairly sure that it isn't a drive problem. Joe From jritorto at nut.net Mon Sep 13 11:06:33 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: HELP! Osbourne drives In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990913075716.3eafc670@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: head alignment? swap the drives into another machine and see if they'll read the messydos disks... unless the drives are weird proprietary.. jake On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Joe wrote: > I played with the Osbourne Executive yesterday. I can't get it to boot. > All it says is "boot error". It says the same thing with no disks in it, [snip] From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Sep 13 13:39:17 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: Britain is Great (Back from the Island) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990913111033.3b273f36@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <199909131411.QAA18690@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199909131640.SAA25117@horus.mch.sni.de> > >> >(Well, the Old lady asked if three pounds may be to much ...) > >> Cool find! Especially in the UK. I have five of them including two > >> with consecutive serial numbers. I found four of them at one time at > >> Patrick AFB. > We have to keep your head from getting too big :-) thank you > >> What do you want to know about them? BTW I know the display > >> was listed as an option but I think they ALL came with it. I've never heard > >> of one that didn't have it. > >Sounds logical - What I want ? EVERYTHING :) > >AFAIK the 46 is just like the 45, but with Printer > >and a 'real' keyboard. > > Yes but internally it is completely different from the 45. It uses > mainly TTL chips instead of the hybrid CMOS ones that the 45 uses. It uses > a *LOT* more ICs than the 45. I just opened it (finaly - I could withstand for more than a week :), and found a HUGE PCB (00046-66500 Rev C) with just 16 ICs and 5 spare. Most of the chips are RCA, 5 are Mostek, and 2 are marked: A* MI All but 3 parts have a numbering like 1820-0xxx, wher xxx is 939 14 Pin RCA 2x 946 14 Pin RCA 5x (Buffer ?) 848 16 Pin A*MI (Timing ?) 981 14 Pin RCA 993 16 Pin Mostek MK6036P (CPU ?) 994 40 Pin Mostek MK6037P (Decoder ?) The Remaining 3 are numbered 1818 00yy where yy is 12 28 Pin A*MI (Keyboard Decode ?) 58 16 Pin Mostek MK6107P (RAM / ROM ?) 59 16 Pin Mostek MK6108P (RAM / ROM ?) 60 10 Pin Mostek MK6068P (RAM / ROM ?)(round package) All A*MI and Mostek are Ceramic DIP, all RCAs are Plastic. 4 of the 5 spares are routed almost paralell to the 1818-0058/9, so maybe here is room for more ROM / Microcode (Which would make the 58/9 ROM and the 1818-0060 the RAM - I just can' belive that HP had already planned for 32 more RAM locations (each holding a 10 decimal digit number), so this must be ROM). The Keyboard is decoded via a 16 Pin DIL socket (Hey, did _maybe_ one of the Apple ][ designers seen a HP 46 before :) Oh, of course there are two more ICs on the display 'option' (the machines still operates well without the display, so this is realy an option) - which gives a total of 18 IC - spread over an area of almost A3 size... If I take of the ICs obviously used only for the Printer (seven), and assume that in a different layout no printer decoding is needed and the display is included, I may come come down to 10 IC, all but one 16 pin (one will be 28, for the keyboard), so the ICs should be prety much the same as in a hand held calculator. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Sep 13 13:53:20 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990911194343.3c5f3f68@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <199909131654.SAA25553@horus.mch.sni.de> > a Heathkit Hero Robot and a HP 3468 meter with HP-IL interface. :-) Found > out later that I missed a Lisa keyboard. Waitamoment - I can help - What about a trade ? Lisa keyboard vs. Hero ? I may even throw in an additional TI 74 ? Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From rhblake at bigfoot.com Mon Sep 13 12:28:35 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: FS: Drum kit (new) & manual for C.Itoh CI-4, CI-4plus and CI-8 Message-ID: <37DD3443.9C67E48B@bigfoot.com> ok, here goes nothing....I have an excess NEW LB-DR320 Drum Kit with instructions and included tools ~AND~ a like new copy of the User's manual for a C.Itoh model CI-8 laser printer. They go together as a set. the drum kit is still in the box,, unused and still factory wrapped. I have $50 tied up in the 2 of them and that's what I need, plus whatever shipping costs. The two together are probably 4-5 lbs and I prefer to use USPS parcel post to hold the cost down. It would ship from zip 42726 (Clarkson, KY) in case someone wanted to 'scope out' the shipping to them. USA and APO/FPO addresses only, too much expense and paperwork outside of the US and it's territitories. it goes on eBay this weekend unless I get a firm response from someone. you people with these C.Itoh printers know how expensive a new factory made drum is, so you decide. From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Sep 13 12:34:48 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19990913094215.00f39914@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Tony wrote: > I picked up an HP3421 (I think that's the number -- the data > logger/multimeter thingy) with HPIL and HPIB on it for a couple of pounds > at a factory sale aa few years back. Nobody else knew what it was. I > didn't really know what it was, but it said HP, and looked interesting > :-)... Still not figured out how to make it do something useful, but it > returns a sane ID when probed on the HPIL so I guess it's doing something. That was a great find, especially at that price. I have a couple of these with the optional HPIB interface. The most useful card for these beasts is the 10 channel multiplexer/actuator assembly (HP44462A), usually configured with the first two channels as actuators . The multiplexer works like this: when the relay on a given channel is closed, it connects its corresponding LO and HI lines to the LO/HI lines in the main chassis (which, by the way, are the same ones available in the front panel). Relays (channels) configured as actuators connect nothing to the instrument's LO and HI lines; they just close a switch for external use. Warning: because of this design, it is possible to tie two channels and the main LO/HI terminals together by closing two relays at once. The software allows this (it can be useful in some situations) but it is possible to inadvertently connect two high-current circuits together, possibly creating a short. It is also important to remember that when a relay closes, the corresponding measured voltage is available at the front panel terminals of the instrument. I like to connect my HP3468A there, since the 3421A has no display. The 3421 is really simple to use. Since it has no front panel, it is always in "remote" mode, and it doesn't respond to the hpil commands "remote", "local", or "local lockout". It has a set of high level commands and a set of lower level (or "advanced") commands. The high level commands allow pretty simple operation, and are mnemonic; here are some to get you started (note: is mandatory and [argument] is optional): DCV [channel list] Take a sequence of voltage measurements on the optionally specified channels (up to 30) ACV [channel list] TWO [channel list] Two-wire ohm measurements FWo [channel list] Four-wire ohms; needs special connections and two multiplexer assemblies. TEM [channel list] Take a temperature measurement ("T" thermocouple assumed in the corresponding channel). Each multiplexer assembly has its own cold junction compensation. FRQ [channel list] Frequency reading CLS Close an actuator relay or multiplexer channel (protected; first opens any other closed multiplexer channels) OPN Open " " ... UC Unconditionally (no protection) close a channel When the optional channel list is not specified, the commands DCV,ACV,TEM,TWO and FWO leave the current state of the relays undisturbed, so readings are taken from the last channel that was closed. When the channel list is specified, the last channel that was closed remains closed. At startup, no channels are closed, so if no channel list is provided, readings are taken from whatever is connected to the front panel terminals. The 3421A can operate for about 8 hours on its internal sealed lead-acid battery, a Panasonic LCR-306P, 6V, 3.2AH . Unfortunately, these are no longer produced. I put smaller, 2.4AH batteries in mine, similar to those used in the HP9114A/B drives. These you can get from Digikey. One thing _not_ to do with an HP3421: if you remove a multiplexer assembly and turn the thing on, it will notice that it is missing, and the next time you plug it in, it will label the assembly as "uncalibrated", requiring you to complete the calibration procedure (all calibration is done in software). I have not had a lot of time to play with my 3421's recently, but back in January I built a subwoofer with a three-chamber acoustic labyrinth. I needed an automated way of evaluating the frequency response of the thing, since tuning the relative volumes of the chambers is an iterative process. I hooked a WaveteK 111 voltage controlled function generator, the voltage control provided by a DAC08 driven by an HP82165 HPIL-GPIO converter, plus a good mike, an HP3421A, my trusty HP71B and an HP82164 HPIL-RS232 converter. So, to take a response reading at a given frequency, first the HP71B would take 10 frequency readings from the 3421A (connected to the Wavetek 111), average them, and adjust the voltage control using a Regula-Falsi algorithm (just a couple iterations required since the Wavetek 111 is pretty linear) until the desired test frequency was being output by the function generator. Of course, the subwoofer was fed by an amplifier connected to the funtion generator. When the right frequency was being output, amplitude readings were taken from the mike, and after repeating this for several frequencies, the response data was downloaded via RS232 to my pc for further analysis in matlab. After quite a few iterations, I was able to get the response to where I wanted it. Could not have done it without the automated rig. Carlos. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 13 12:49:51 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: HP-46 calculator (was Re: Britain is Great (Back from the Island)) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990913111033.3b273f36@mailhost.intellistar.net> (message from Joe on Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:10:33) References: <3.0.1.16.19990910164501.233f76c8@mailhost.intellistar.net> <199909101536.RAA28739@horus.mch.sni.de> <3.0.1.16.19990913111033.3b273f36@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <19990913174951.28811.qmail@brouhaha.com> Joe writes about the HP-46: > Yes but internally it is completely different from the 45. It uses > mainly TTL chips instead of the hybrid CMOS ones that the 45 uses. > It uses a *LOT* more ICs than the 45. Actually, the HP-45 doesn't use hybrid chips, and it doesn't use CMOS. It uses the same PMOS chipset as the HP-35, but with 1 Kword ROMs instead of 256 word ROMs, and with an extra RAM chip. Some units had ROMs in round metal can packages, and some in DIPs, but all were monolithic, not hybrid. HP didn't use hybrid multichip modules in their first generation handheld calculators except for the HP-80 (seven 256-word ROMs in one hybrid, because the 1 Kword parts weren't ready yet) and the HP-65. The HP-46 uses this chipset as well. But it adds a lot more chips to control the printer. HP didn't use CMOS in handheld calculators until they started offering continuous memory in the late second generation models HP-25C and HP-29C, and the third generation HP-33C, HP-34C, and HP-38C. By the fourth generation (HP-41C/CV/CX, HP-10C/11C/12C/15C/16C), they used nothing but CMOS, except for the power supply chip of the 41C, and some of the chips in peripheral devices. I recently was given a tour of the HP Corvallis Division, which was specifically created as the calculator division. However, since they no longer have anything to do with calculators, the division is mostly responsible for inkjet cartridges. While you may think that inkjet cartridges are simple, this tour impressed on me that actually they are one of the most sophisticated and demanding portions of a modern computer system. But I digress. The reason that I brought this up is that although Corvallis Division no longer has the "Hall of Fame" displaying every calculator model, they do still have a series of photomicrographs in one hallway showing the evolution of the chips that were used. Unfortunately the first photo which showed on of the HP-35 chips is no longer there, but it was interesting to see the others. I didn't take a camera along, and was later told (as I'd suspected) that I wouldn't have been allowed to bring one into the facility. They have very tight security, and apparently it was a fairly uncommon occurance that my host was able to obtain a visitor pass for me (and on only a few hours advance notice). He said that some of his acquaintances who've asked for tours have had to wait months. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 13 12:57:04 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: HP-46 calculator (was Re: Britain is Great (Back from the Island)) In-Reply-To: <199909131640.SAA25117@horus.mch.sni.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) References: <199909131411.QAA18690@horus.mch.sni.de> <199909131640.SAA25117@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <19990913175704.28871.qmail@brouhaha.com> > Most of the chips are RCA, 5 are Mostek, and 2 are marked: > A* > MI AMI, American Microsystems Almost all of the early HP PMOS calculator chips were fabbed by either Mostek and AMI. They are custom for HP, so don't bother looking in catalogs. > From first look the CPU seams to hafe a serial architecture. Yes. There is a two-phase clock and synchronization signal to denote that start of a 56-clock cycle. There is a data line which is used to transfer a 56-bit word to or from memory and peripherals each cycle, although most cycles it is not actually used. There is a line that the CPU uses to shift out an 8-bit instruction address to ROM (addressing beyond 256 words is by bank-switching), and a line that the ROM uses to send back a 10-bit instruction. For more details, check out my web site: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/hpcalc/ I've written a complete microinstruction-level simulator of the HP-45 which is available there. Eric From gtaylor at ccops.com Mon Sep 13 13:08:14 1999 From: gtaylor at ccops.com (Taylor, Gene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: HP 7475 Plotter Message-ID: <815F911B2CAFD111987B0060B052947550D4E6@IMAIL> Hi ? Found you guys on www re an old HP 7475 Plotter? I recently picked up an ?A? model (RS232 version, it seems) with a pile of pens to fit (mostly very old). The plotter works great (test page), but I?m looking for a driver to use under the Windows 9x environment? What did you guys end up using? And by the way, do you need a few pens? I could maybe cut loose of a couple packages? Gene From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Sep 13 15:50:46 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: HP-46 calculator (was Re: Britain is Great (Back from the Island)) In-Reply-To: <19990913175704.28871.qmail@brouhaha.com> References: <199909131640.SAA25117@horus.mch.sni.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) Message-ID: <199909131851.UAA28616@horus.mch.sni.de> > Almost all of the early HP PMOS calculator chips were fabbed by > either Mostek and AMI. They are custom for HP, so don't bother > looking in catalogs. :) > > From first look the CPU seams to hafe a serial architecture. > Yes. There is a two-phase clock and synchronization signal to > denote that start of a 56-clock cycle. There is a data line which > is used to transfer a 56-bit word to or from memory and peripherals > each cycle, although most cycles it is not actually used. There > is a line that the CPU uses to shift out an 8-bit instruction address > to ROM (addressing beyond 256 words is by bank-switching), and a line > that the ROM uses to send back a 10-bit instruction. > For more details, check out my web site: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/hpcalc/ Bookmarked > I've written a complete microinstruction-level simulator of the HP-45 > which is available there. Well, interesting. So if I get your decription right (last mail), the 1818 0060 10 Pin Mostek MK6068P is a 1 kBit ROM and the 1818 0058/9 (MK6107/8) are RAM chips (Which I assumed, since the board layout looks _way_ like it. But why two different Chips ? Already including an preset address comperator ? Each chip can keep 8 'words' (I havn't 'decoded' the simulator right now - Maybe you can recover your description pages ?) Assuming that there are only X,Y,Z,T, STO 0-9 and 2 calcualtion registers ? Also, following the Board layout, there are 4 more locations for RAM - could it be that THe calculator can be extended to 32 more registers ? Just a flow of free ideas: the design was already redy to become a programmable calculator ? The 65 was just in planing I asume (BTW, my unit seams to be from early '74 - since all time stamps are between 73/31 and 74/04) I already love this beast. And Yes, comparing to an HP45 picture I found http://www.hpmuseum.org/45intern.jpg The chips are basicly the same (I'm missing the round ROM). Gruss H. P.S.: Has anybody a HP16C for sale ? -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Sep 13 14:05:49 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:16 2005 Subject: HP-46 calculator (was Re: Britain is Great (Back from the Island)) In-Reply-To: <199909131851.UAA28616@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <19990913175704.28871.qmail@brouhaha.com> <199909131640.SAA25117@horus.mch.sni.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) Message-ID: >> I've written a complete microinstruction-level simulator of the HP-45 >> which is available there. >P.S.: Has anybody a HP16C for sale ? I keep my HP 45 and 16C in the drawer of my desk. Battery pack in the 45 is long since dead, but it works just fine off the AC adapter. The 16C just keeps going and going. No they aren't for sale. ;) I remember a combination of buttons on the 45 would make it act like the 65 with the timers etc. Does that work in your simulator? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 13 13:12:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: Britain is Great (Back from the Island) In-Reply-To: <199909131640.SAA25117@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Sep 13, 99 06:40:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3348 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990913/469b1fa7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 13 12:49:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990913080909.2307fece@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Sep 13, 99 08:09:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2713 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990913/a6b492aa/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 13 12:57:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: from "cem14@cornell.edu" at Sep 13, 99 01:34:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2502 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990913/f9e2365c/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 13 15:08:52 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HP-46 calculator (was Re: Britain is Great (Back from the Island)) In-Reply-To: (message from Mike Ford on Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:05:49 -0700) References: <19990913175704.28871.qmail@brouhaha.com> <199909131640.SAA25117@horus.mch.sni.de> (Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de) Message-ID: <19990913200852.29608.qmail@brouhaha.com> Mike Ford wrote: > I remember a combination of buttons on the 45 would make it act like the 65 > with the timers etc. It made it act somewhat like the 55's stopwatch; the 65 didn't have one. The stopwatch was apparently intended to be a feature of the 45 early on in the development, but was later cancelled. The code was left in the ROM, and was activated by STO followed by the switch under the right half of the ENTER key. The ENTER key is molded to only press the switch under its left half, so this feature was probably intended to be inaccessible on unmodified calculators. However, by the nature of a scanned key matrix, it is possible to get a "phantom key" by pressing three other keys. In this case, it can be done by pressing CHS, 7, and 8 simultaneously. It is difficult to make this work consistently without a lot of work, so many people used the "penny trick", placing a penny on those three keys to help press them simultaneously. Other people added a shim to the ENTER key so that it would press the right-hand switch. Since the stopwatch was not a supported feature of the 45, they manufactured it using the same LC oscillator circuit of most of the other calculators, so it isn't very accurate. Many people installed a crystal, and at some point HP actually published an application note on doing this, although they didn't support it, and it voided the warranty. > Does that work in your simulator? Yes. There's an IFDEF that makes the ENTER key generate the right-hand keycode instead of the normal left-hand. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 13 15:11:10 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HP-46 calculator (was Re: Britain is Great (Back from the Island)) In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990913201110.29632.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote about HP part numbers: > Alas ROM and RAMs both had 1818-numbers. Actually, RAM chips were usually only 1818 if there was some unique characteristic, such as a hard-wired address decode. General-purpose RAM chips were usually 1820. In the calculators, sometimes RAM had make-programmed address decode, and sometimes it was combined with ROM or other functions. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 13 15:16:48 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HP-IL (was Re: GOOD hamfest!) In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990913201648.29675.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > I have (somewhere) the HP specs for HP-IL, and the 1LB3 HPIL interface > chip data sheet I scanned these for Dave Hick's Museum of HP Calculators CD-ROM set. They should appear on the next edition which he expects to ship soon. http://www.hpmuseum.org/ > (heck, although not IL-related, I have the 1LQ4 Saturn bus > -> JEDEC memory interface chip data sheets somewhere...). That one I've never seen. Where did you find it? > Oh, and the > HP71 HPIL module IDS (ROM sources, etc for the HP71 HP-IL code). With > those I can generally figure out HPIL problems These will also appear on a future CD-ROM, along with the HP-71 Software IDS (3 volumes), the HP-71 Hardware IDS, and the HP-71 Forth/Assembler Software IDS. >> The 3421 is really nice, doubley so both interfaces. You can use it on > > The HPIB is a kludge :-). The basic instrument is HPIL, and the HPIB > board is a microcontroller + ROMs + 1LB3 + interface parts. There's a 4 > pole changeover switch that links the HPIL port on the main board either > to the external connector or to the HP-IL port on the HPIB card. That > card then translates HPIB commands/data into HPIL ones -- sort of like a > special 82169. Several HP products were done this way, including the HPIB version of the Thinkjet printer. Also, note that the HP 9807 Integral computer (the 68K/HP-UX lunchbox computer) has an internal Thinkjet printer which is interface to the system via an internal HP-IL bus. Too bad they didn't make it available externally. It's rumored that there was an expansion card to provide an HP-IL interface, but I've never seen it. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Sep 13 16:41:17 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: Britain is Great (Back from the Island) In-Reply-To: <199909131640.SAA25117@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <3.0.1.16.19990913111033.3b273f36@mailhost.intellistar.net> <199909131411.QAA18690@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990913164117.3b271096@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hans, At 06:40 PM 9/13/99 +1, you wrote: >> >> >(Well, the Old lady asked if three pounds may be to much ...) >> >> Cool find! Especially in the UK. I have five of them including two >> >> with consecutive serial numbers. I found four of them at one time at >> >> Patrick AFB. >> We have to keep your head from getting too big :-) >thank you > >> >> What do you want to know about them? BTW I know the display >> >> was listed as an option but I think they ALL came with it. I've never heard >> >> of one that didn't have it. > >> >Sounds logical - What I want ? EVERYTHING :) >> >AFAIK the 46 is just like the 45, but with Printer >> >and a 'real' keyboard. >> >> Yes but internally it is completely different from the 45. It uses >> mainly TTL chips instead of the hybrid CMOS ones that the 45 uses. It uses >> a *LOT* more ICs than the 45. > >I just opened it (finaly - I could withstand for more than a week :), >and found a HUGE PCB (00046-66500 Rev C) with just 16 ICs and 5 spare. >Most of the chips are RCA, 5 are Mostek, and 2 are marked: >A* >MI > >All but 3 parts have a numbering like 1820-0xxx, wher xxx is >939 14 Pin RCA 2x >946 14 Pin RCA 5x (Buffer ?) >848 16 Pin A*MI (Timing ?) >981 14 Pin RCA >993 16 Pin Mostek MK6036P (CPU ?) >994 40 Pin Mostek MK6037P (Decoder ?) > >The Remaining 3 are numbered 1818 00yy where yy is >12 28 Pin A*MI (Keyboard Decode ?) >58 16 Pin Mostek MK6107P (RAM / ROM ?) >59 16 Pin Mostek MK6108P (RAM / ROM ?) >60 10 Pin Mostek MK6068P (RAM / ROM ?)(round package) > >All A*MI and Mostek are Ceramic DIP, all RCAs are Plastic. > >4 of the 5 spares are routed almost paralell to the >1818-0058/9, so maybe here is room for more ROM / >Microcode (Which would make the 58/9 ROM and the >1818-0060 the RAM - I just can' belive that HP had >already planned for 32 more RAM locations (each holding >a 10 decimal digit number), so this must be ROM). I checked my HP part number cross reference but I don't have a listing on ANY of those ICs. > >The Keyboard is decoded via a 16 Pin DIL socket (Hey, did >_maybe_ one of the Apple ][ designers seen a HP 46 before :) > > >Oh, of course there are two more ICs on the display 'option' >(the machines still operates well without the display, so >this is realy an option) - which gives a total of 18 IC - >spread over an area of almost A3 size... > >If I take of the ICs obviously used only for the Printer >(seven), and assume that in a different layout no printer >decoding is needed and the display is included, I may come >come down to 10 IC, all but one 16 pin (one will be 28, >for the keyboard), so the ICs should be prety much the same >as in a hand held calculator. > >>From first look the CPU seams to hafe a serial architecture. > >> It uses a printer made by Seiko. A lot of >> calculators of that vintage use the same printer. > >I cant see any sign sayin Seiko. After all, the Printer was the >most surprising thing to find - a Drum Printer - well shure, I >know them as mainframe printers (I had 2 survivors to maintain >back in 1982), but I never knew this technology has been used >in desktop units ... Yes. I used to work for Burroughs and worked on many of their desktop calculators and several of them used the same printer. I also used to have a big Monroe Litton scientific calculator that used the same printer. I've seen it used in many calculators from about 1972 till the mid '80s. > >> The 46 was designed and >> built by the Loveland Colorado Division of HP. The same same division that >> built the 9800 series machines like the 9825, 9835 and 9845. The 45 was >> designed and built by the Advanced Product division in Copertino >> california. The 81 and 46 look the same on the outside except for the >> functions but all the internal parts are differnt except for the LEDS, >> power supply and printer. The HP 9805 is supposed to be the same style >> machine and very similar to the 46 and 81 but I've never seen a 9805 so I >> don't know any more than that. The 46, 81 and 9805 are all covered in the >> same service manual. >> >> I have a lot more back ground material on them but I'll have to find it. >> If you have any specific questions I'll try to answer them. > >Well, no specific, just anything to gather. OK I'll see what else I can find. There will be a delay due the storm (Floyd) bearing down on us here. Joe > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Sep 13 16:45:54 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HELP! Osbourne drives In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990913075716.3eafc670@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990913164554.3a9736f8@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:06 PM 9/13/99 -0400, Jake wrote: >head alignment? Maybe but both drives are doing the same thing. > >swap the drives into another machine and see if they'll read the messydos >disks... unless the drives are weird proprietary.. I've been told that they're different from standard drives. But I'm not sure of that. I'm hoping that someone can tell me for sure. One problem is that they're single sided drives so I need to find a machine that supports SS drives. I know a PC will read and write SS disks but all the current ones do expect the drive to be double sided. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Sep 13 16:47:28 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: <199909131654.SAA25553@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <3.0.1.16.19990911194343.3c5f3f68@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990913164728.3a979b48@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:54 PM 9/13/99 +1, Hans wrote: >> a Heathkit Hero Robot and a HP 3468 meter with HP-IL interface. :-) Found >> out later that I missed a Lisa keyboard. > >Waitamoment - I can help - What about a trade ? Nope, I don't think so! I only need a couple of Lisa keytops. >Lisa keyboard vs. Hero ? I may even throw in >an additional TI 74 ? What the hell is a TI 74? Joe > >Gruss >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Sep 13 17:04:43 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990913080909.2307fece@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990913170443.3a970d8a@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:49 PM 9/13/99 +0100, Tony said: > >I have (somewhere) the HP specs for HP-IL, and the 1LB3 HPIL interface >chip data sheet (heck, although not IL-related, I have the 1LQ4 Saturn bus >-> JEDEC memory interface chip data sheets somewhere...). Oh, and the >HP71 HPIL module IDS (ROM sources, etc for the HP71 HP-IL code). With >those I can generally figure out HPIL problems Have you ever had to fix any IL stuff? I've never seen one fail (knock on wood!) > > >> >> > >> >I just wish I had more of it. I've got it on some HP handhelds (71B, >> >75C), on my 150, and that's about it. I've got some of the interfaces >> >(RS232, HPIB, GPIO, Video), but no storage devices or printers (yet!!). >> >> ThinkJet printers and 9114 disk drives are fairly common if you look for >> them. A lot of times you'll find them bundled with HP 110 Portable > >How could I forget -- I was given a portable+ a few months back. It has >HPIL (of course)... > >> >I picked up an HP3421 (I think that's the number -- the data >> >logger/multimeter thingy) with HPIL and HPIB on it for a couple of pounds >> >at a factory sale aa few years back. Nobody else knew what it was. I >> >didn't really know what it was, but it said HP, and looked interesting >> >:-)... Still not figured out how to make it do something useful, but it >> >returns a sane ID when probed on the HPIL so I guess it's doing something. >> > >> >> The 3421 is really nice, doubley so both interfaces. You can use it on > >The HPIB is a kludge :-). The basic instrument is HPIL, and the HPIB >board is a microcontroller + ROMs + 1LB3 + interface parts. Yes, the HP-IB version of the ThinkJet does the same thing. I haven't looked at the 3421 circuit so there may be some differences but the IL ThinkJet converts HP-IB to HP-IL and most of the rest of the interface is standard HP-IL. That's odd considering that the IL version was the only battery powered ThinkJet and HP had to make MANY changes to the rest of the electronics to allow the printer to run off of a battery. Besides the battery powereed one with the IL interface, HP was building AC powered ThinkJets with RS-232, HP-IB and Centronics interfaces. Many years later HP came out with a battery powered ThinkJet that used a Centronics interface. Joe From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Sep 13 16:25:41 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HELP! Osbourne drives In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990913164554.3a9736f8@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Joe wrote: > At 12:06 PM 9/13/99 -0400, Jake wrote: > > > >swap the drives into another machine and see if they'll read the messydos > >disks... unless the drives are weird proprietary.. > > I've been told that they're different from standard drives. But I'm not > sure of that. I'm hoping that someone can tell me for sure. One problem is > that they're single sided drives so I need to find a machine that supports > SS drives. I know a PC will read and write SS disks but all the current > ones do expect the drive to be double sided. Well... not having had the need to pull apart any of the 'Execs' in my collection (so far), I can only offer an observation from the earlier Osborne machines. The drives are mainly different in that the drive power is provided on the same cable as the control and data signals, rather than on a seperate cable like 'most' drives. Without a specially configured cable (at least) it will be difficult to operate the drives on another system. In fact, one of the disk exerciser units I have has a special configuration block to deal with Osborne drives. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From cmcmanis at freegate.com Mon Sep 13 16:37:10 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: Canadian help needed Message-ID: <4.1.19990913143520.03f58780@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> I need some help from somebody living within an easy drive of Laurent, Quebec. If you could contact me off list I would appreciate it. --Chuck From arfonrg at texas.net Mon Sep 13 16:30:38 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: Unopened classic what should I do??? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990913163038.00a1a390@207.207.0.212> Bragging part: I just got a TRS-80 Model 12!! I just got a TRS-80 Model 12!! nyah nyah!! It's un-opened!!! It's un-opened!!! WHOO HOO!!!! Dilemma: Should I open it and smellthe sweet scent of the ancient '80's air trapped in it's plastic bags or let it be, and keep it's un-opened pristine state??? A virgin. Un-touched by end-user hands. I really don't have any software for it... what should I do??? A ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From morrison at t-iii.com Mon Sep 13 16:43:20 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: Unopened classic what should I do??? Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1E845@hobbit.t-iii.com> It should come with TRS-DOS and manuals. You can now program it in an old version of Gates Basic. I may even have some S/W for it! Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Arfon Gryffydd [SMTP:arfonrg@texas.net] > Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 2:31 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Unopened classic what should I do??? > > Bragging part: > I just got a TRS-80 Model 12!! I just got a TRS-80 Model 12!! nyah > nyah!! > It's un-opened!!! It's un-opened!!! WHOO HOO!!!! > > > Dilemma: > Should I open it and smellthe sweet scent of the ancient '80's air > trapped > in it's plastic bags or let it be, and keep it's un-opened pristine > state??? A virgin. Un-touched by end-user hands. > > I really don't have any software for it... what should I do??? > > A > ---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... > ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # > #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## > ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### > ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### > ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### > # ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) > ---------------------------------------- > Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > > Slackware Mailing List: > http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Mon Sep 13 16:35:21 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: Unopened classic what should I do??? Message-ID: <199909132135.RAA09295@phantom.golden.net> > I just got a TRS-80 Model 12!! I just got a TRS-80 Model 12!! nyah nyah!! > It's un-opened!!! It's un-opened!!! WHOO HOO!!!! > > >Dilemma: > Should I open it and smellthe sweet scent of the ancient '80's air trapped >in it's plastic bags or let it be, and keep it's un-opened pristine >state??? > Just having the original packaging is remarkable. As for me and my collection, we say keep it intact and untouched for as long as you can. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From jwebste3 at bellsouth.net Mon Sep 13 17:53:13 1999 From: jwebste3 at bellsouth.net (JAMES WEBSTER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HP 7475 Plotter References: <815F911B2CAFD111987B0060B052947550D4E6@IMAIL> Message-ID: <37DD8059.4DD6@bellsouth.net> Gene, I do not own one of these plotters. But from my notes, Windows 9x has native drivers for the HP7475 and HP7550 plotters. How functional they are, I do not know. From the Control Panel select Add Printer and proceed from there. I would be interested in knowing how well the native driver works. Thanks! Jim Webster Taylor, Gene wrote: > > Hi ? > > Found you guys on www re an old HP 7475 Plotter I recently picked up an ?A? > model (RS232 version, it seems) with a pile of pens to fit (mostly very > old). The plotter works great (test page), but I?m looking for a driver to > use under the Windows 9x environment What did you guys end up using? And by > the way, do you need a few pens? I could maybe cut loose of a couple > packages > > Gene From donm at cts.com Mon Sep 13 16:38:58 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HELP! Osbourne drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, James Willing wrote: > On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Joe wrote: > > > I played with the Osbourne Executive yesterday. I can't get it to boot. > > All it says is "boot error". It says the same thing with no disks in it, > > MS DOS disks in it and with the door open so the message doesn't tell me > > anything. > > Well... from the description above, the first thing that comes to mind is > that the 'Executive', like all of the Osborne machines is a CP/M machine, > and will likely never run any form of MicroSquish DOS... B^} > > In more general terms, the message indicates that the unit is unable to > read the boot sector(s), but without a proper set of diskettes it will be > difficult to troubleshoot reliabily... I think you misread his message, Jim. What he was saying was that in addition to not booting on the CP/M disks and getting the error message, he also got the message with a DOS disk, with no disk, and even with the drive door open. With all of those failure modes, it does not seem likely to me that it is a drive problem. - don From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 13 16:41:15 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: Unopened classic what should I do??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990913163038.00a1a390@207.207.0.212> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Sep 13, 99 04:30:38 pm Message-ID: <199909132141.OAA07820@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 695 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990913/fdd5bd5d/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Sep 13 18:10:29 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HELP! Osbourne drives In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990913164554.3a9736f8@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990913181029.39b76a8e@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:25 PM 9/13/99 -0700, Jim wrote: >On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Joe wrote: >> At 12:06 PM 9/13/99 -0400, Jake wrote: >> > >> >swap the drives into another machine and see if they'll read the messydos >> >disks... unless the drives are weird proprietary.. >> >> I've been told that they're different from standard drives. But I'm not >> sure of that. I'm hoping that someone can tell me for sure. One problem is >> that they're single sided drives so I need to find a machine that supports >> SS drives. I know a PC will read and write SS disks but all the current >> ones do expect the drive to be double sided. > >Well... not having had the need to pull apart any of the 'Execs' in my >collection (so far), I can only offer an observation from the earlier >Osborne machines. > >The drives are mainly different in that the drive power is provided on the >same cable as the control and data signals, rather than on a seperate >cable like 'most' drives. The drives in this one have a separate power connector. It's a four conductor Molex connector exactly like the one used on the IBM PCs. That's a good sign I guess but it sounds like I can't rob a drive out of one of my OCC-1s. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Sep 13 18:12:54 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HELP! Osbourne drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990913181254.3a97c55e@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:38 PM 9/13/99 -0700, Don wrote: >On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, James Willing wrote: > >> On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Joe wrote: >> >> > I played with the Osbourne Executive yesterday. I can't get it to boot. >> > All it says is "boot error". It says the same thing with no disks in it, >> > MS DOS disks in it and with the door open so the message doesn't tell me >> > anything. >> >> Well... from the description above, the first thing that comes to mind is >> that the 'Executive', like all of the Osborne machines is a CP/M machine, >> and will likely never run any form of MicroSquish DOS... B^} >> >> In more general terms, the message indicates that the unit is unable to >> read the boot sector(s), but without a proper set of diskettes it will be >> difficult to troubleshoot reliabily... > >I think you misread his message, Jim. What he was saying was that in >addition to not booting on the CP/M disks and getting the error message, >he also got the message with a DOS disk, with no disk, and even with the >drive door open. > >With all of those failure modes, it does not seem likely to me that it is >a drive problem. Exactly! Thanks Don. Joe From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Mon Sep 13 17:21:57 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HELP! Osbourne drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Don Maslin wrote: > On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, James Willing wrote: > > On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Joe wrote: > > > > > I played with the Osbourne Executive yesterday. I can't get it to boot. > > > All it says is "boot error". It says the same thing with no disks in it, > > > MS DOS disks in it and with the door open so the message doesn't tell me > > > anything. > > > > Well... from the description above, the first thing that comes to mind is > > that the 'Executive', like all of the Osborne machines is a CP/M machine, > > and will likely never run any form of MicroSquish DOS... B^} > > > > In more general terms, the message indicates that the unit is unable to > > read the boot sector(s), but without a proper set of diskettes it will be > > difficult to troubleshoot reliabily... > > I think you misread his message, Jim. What he was saying was that in > addition to not booting on the CP/M disks and getting the error message, > he also got the message with a DOS disk, with no disk, and even with the > drive door open. True enough... Failure to read between the lines sufficiently. B^} > With all of those failure modes, it does not seem likely to me that it is > a drive problem. Yep... and the base machine won't give much more of an indication. The Osbornes tended to think in a go/no-go mode, so the one 'catch-all' error message is about all you would ever see. I believe that the 'Exec used a WD1793 series floppy controller chip, so the controller circuitry should be fairly straight forward. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jritorto at nut.net Mon Sep 13 17:29:23 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HP 7475 Plotter (an aside) In-Reply-To: <815F911B2CAFD111987B0060B052947550D4E6@IMAIL> Message-ID: Man, that windows-1252 character set is a real bummer. On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Taylor, Gene wrote: > Hi =96=20 >=20 > Found you guys on www re an old HP 7475 Plotter=85 I recently picked up a= n =93A=94 > model (RS232 version, it seems) with a pile of pens to fit (mostly very > old). The plotter works great (test page), but I=92m looking for a driver= to > use under the Windows 9x environment=85 What did you guys end up using? A= nd by > the way, do you need a few pens? I could maybe cut loose of a couple > packages=85 >=20 > Gene >=20 >=20 From jritorto at nut.net Mon Sep 13 17:39:13 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: Unopened classic what should I do??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990913163038.00a1a390@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: I have that smell fetish too, Afron. Perhaps you could quell it by using a carefully-inserted syringe, extracting some vintage air and pushing it into a non-porous plastic bag or something. :) On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Bragging part: > I just got a TRS-80 Model 12!! I just got a TRS-80 Model 12!! nyah nyah!! > It's un-opened!!! It's un-opened!!! WHOO HOO!!!! > > > Dilemma: > Should I open it and smellthe sweet scent of the ancient '80's air trapped > in it's plastic bags or let it be, and keep it's un-opened pristine > state??? A virgin. Un-touched by end-user hands. > > I really don't have any software for it... what should I do??? > > A > ---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... > ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # > #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## > ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### > ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### > ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### > # ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) > ---------------------------------------- > Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > > Slackware Mailing List: > http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html > > From sring at uslink.net Mon Sep 13 17:55:01 1999 From: sring at uslink.net (END USER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: 5 1/4 floppies on laptop Message-ID: <01befe3b$0359e0a0$6257ddcc@sring.uslink.net> I would like to run 5 1/4 floppies on an older laptop. Can anyone recommend a laptop that had this size drive? Or which older laptops had ports for 5 1/4 external floppie drives? sring@uslink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990913/fe50a358/attachment.html From a2k at one.net Mon Sep 13 18:09:49 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: 5 1/4 floppies on laptop In-Reply-To: <01befe3b$0359e0a0$6257ddcc@sring.uslink.net> Message-ID: I have a Compaq 386 that I picked up at a hamfest for $20 (with docking station!!) I put a floppy drive and a network card in the docking station and use it to copy from 5.25->3.5 and the other way round. Supposedly it the entire docking station and perhipherals can be powered by the laptop's battery but mine was bunk (not only totally flat, wouldn't even charge) so I haven't had a chance to test that. Although I'd really hate to have the thing in my lap... it's huge and weighs a TON. Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's you isn't it? THE BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL!" "In the flesh, on the phone and in your account..." -- BOFH #3 On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, END USER wrote: > > > I would like to run 5 1/4 floppies on an older > laptop. Can anyone recommend a laptop > that had this size drive? Or which older > laptops had ports for 5 1/4 external floppie drives? > > sring@uslink.net > > > > > > > From DD950 at prodigy.net Mon Sep 13 18:17:57 1999 From: DD950 at prodigy.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: 5 1/4 floppies on laptop Message-ID: <00bf01befe3e$3893f280$0f55fea9@cel-366> Well, I am not real knowledgeable about computers but I have still an old Toshiba 1000 that I bought for $150 in 1993 at a hamfest. I used it for packet radio for awhile. It had a 3 1/2 " internal drive and I bought a 5 1/4" external that came with a big brick power supply for $50 dollars for it. I think the Toshiba 1100 was really about the same thing. When I was looking for a 5 1/4" drive in 1993, I remember people telling me that MicroSolutions made one for various notebook computers. I think I have the name of the company correct. MicroSolutions also made external hard drives and tape drives they called/call the back-pack I think. My Toshiba works,err, maybe worked, with its own connections. I think the MicroSolution stuff was all parallel port. I have always wondered if somebody has written a driver for my parallel port 100 Mb Zip drive to work with the old XT type Toshiba 1000? That might be an interesting solution for you also. Regards, Jim Rossbach, Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club Web Ring, www.TonkinYachts.cjb.net Stop repeat offenders. Don't re-elect them! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990913/379193d3/attachment.html From mmcmanus at direct.ca Mon Sep 13 18:48:39 1999 From: mmcmanus at direct.ca (m) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HELP! Osbourne drives References: <3.0.1.16.19990913075716.3eafc670@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.1.16.19990913164554.3a9736f8@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <37DD8D56.159B5FA1@direct.ca> Joe I have the tech repair manual and the thr tech ref manuals.If you need info just ask. The drives in the Exec are Alps which are different than the 01. 22Disk can and maybe format that ssdd disk. Joe wrote: > At 12:06 PM 9/13/99 -0400, Jake wrote: > > >head alignment? > > Maybe but both drives are doing the same thing. > > > >swap the drives into another machine and see if they'll read the messydos > >disks... unless the drives are weird proprietary.. > > I've been told that they're different from standard drives. But I'm not > sure of that. I'm hoping that someone can tell me for sure. One problem is > that they're single sided drives so I need to find a machine that supports > SS drives. I know a PC will read and write SS disks but all the current > ones do expect the drive to be double sided. > > Joe From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Sep 13 19:12:01 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: Really OT: Any tar experts here? In-Reply-To: <00bf01befe3e$3893f280$0f55fea9@cel-366> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990913201201.00939d50@mail.30below.com> Sorry for the off-topic post, but I'm tired of beating what's left of my brains on what's left of my desk... Please, Please, Please, private email replies only. Non-essential info: I'm writing a selective backup program in Perl to read a config file, use the info to create a list of directories to be backed up, then give that listing to tar to back up the information. Essential info: Problem is, I have directories that I want backed up, but with subdirectories that I *don't* want backed up; yet when I feed the list of dir's to tar, it recursively backs up the dir's anyway. Is there a way (program switch, special version of tar, anything...) to tell tar to not recurse subdirectories, or do I need to write a sub-program that extracts each individual filename? Thanks in advance for any help that can be provided. Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jritorto at nut.net Mon Sep 13 19:17:26 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: Really OT: Any tar experts here? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990913201201.00939d50@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: If anyone replies, please cc me on this if you don't mind.. thanks. jake On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Sorry for the off-topic post, but I'm tired of beating what's left of my > brains on what's left of my desk... Please, Please, Please, private email > replies only. From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Sep 13 19:18:12 1999 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: Unopened classic what should I do??? In-Reply-To: Arfon Gryffydd's message of "Mon, 13 Sep 1999 16:30:38 -0500" References: <3.0.3.32.19990913163038.00a1a390@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: <199909140018.RAA05586@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > Dilemma: > Should I open it and smellthe sweet scent of the ancient '80's air trapped > in it's plastic bags or let it be, and keep it's un-opened pristine > state??? A virgin. Un-touched by end-user hands. Consider: will the packaging degrade over time in a way that affects the artifact? Shipping cartons aren't really intended for long-term storage, they're intended to protect the contents during shipment which hopefully won't take 20 years. Styrofoam and plastics can melt if they get too hot (i.e. styrofoam peanuts and plastic bubble wrap tend to have lower melting points than do computer cases and cords, and those temperatures can easily be reached in shelters that are exposed to sunlight like outdoor sheds), and rubbers and glues can dry out and/or turn gooey over time. -Frank McConnell From wsmith at gj.com Mon Sep 13 18:36:38 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HELP! Kaypro 2X Drive (Was: HELP! Osbourne drives) Message-ID: This made me remember that I have a perhaps similar problem with one of my Kaypro drives. It works at first, but eventually wears away portions of the disk making the disk unusable. (After a few uses, if you hold the disk up to the light there are arcs that are clear.) I assume this is a head alignment issue. If so, is there an easy way to realign the heads (perhaps dropping the unit a la Apple III), or should I just look for another floppy drive? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 13 19:37:22 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: Really OT: Any tar experts here? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19990913201201.00939d50@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: I'm inclined to say post it to the list, even if it is off-topic, as I'd also be interested. Zane >If anyone replies, please cc me on this if you don't mind.. > >thanks. > >jake > >On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> Sorry for the off-topic post, but I'm tired of beating what's left of my >> brains on what's left of my desk... Please, Please, Please, private email >> replies only. | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Sep 13 19:45:46 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: Really OT: Any tar experts here? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19990913201201.00939d50@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990913174157.00b9ed80@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Well if you're going to be that way about it. Short answer : use CPIO Long answer : specify all the leafs and don't specify any directories. Longer answer : ../src/gnu/usr.bin/tar make it do anything you want :-) --Chuck At 08:17 PM 9/13/99 -0400, Jake wrote: >If anyone replies, please cc me on this if you don't mind.. From mmcmanus at direct.ca Mon Sep 13 19:44:22 1999 From: mmcmanus at direct.ca (m) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HELP! Osbourne drives References: <3.0.1.16.19990913075716.3eafc670@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <37DD9A65.746759CB@direct.ca> Joe In the FOG library, there was a disk that explained how to convert to dsdd drives. There was a piece of hardware that was required. You would have to read the doc's on the disk. mike Joe wrote: > I played with the Osbourne Executive yesterday. I can't get it to boot. > All it says is "boot error". It says the same thing with no disks in it, > MS DOS disks in it and with the door open so the message doesn't tell me > anything. I tried swapping drives, reseating ICs and cables and everything > that I could think of. It booted once and I did DIR on both drives with no > problems, it almost booted several times but filled the screeen with > garbage and locked up. I tried disks from three different sets including a > set of new copies from Don Maslin so I'm sure the the disks aren't the > problem. Any ideas? Does anyone know if DS drives can be used in these? > The drives in it are ALPS SS DD. I took the drives out and checked them, > the heads and drives are clean and the speed is right. I don't think there > is anything wrong with them. > > Several people have posted messages here in the past about problems with > Osbournes that wouldn't boot. Did you ever get them working? What have you > found wrong with them? > > Joe From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Sep 13 19:39:39 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HELP! Kaypro 2X Drive (Was: HELP! Osbourne drives) Message-ID: <990913203939.202005e1@trailing-edge.com> >This made me remember that I have a perhaps similar problem with one of my >Kaypro drives. It works at first, but eventually wears away portions of the >disk making the disk unusable. (After a few uses, if you hold the disk >up to the light there are arcs >that are clear.) I assume this is a head alignment issue. Why assume this? And why is everyone so quick to assume that the first thing you want to do to a floppy drive is realign the heads? Reminds me of those folks who insist on tweaking the IF cores in all their AM/FM radios without the proper test equipment, and then they wonder why it doesn't perform so well anymore... In my experience, the only floppy drives I've ever had to realign the heads on were drives that someone else decided to align the heads on :-). Two questions: 1. Single sided drive? If so, check the head load pad. An extremely worn head load pad will gouge up the media for sure. 2. Double sided drive? If so, is there anything wedged in the spring supports that'll make the heads press against the media with too much force? -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From morrison at t-iii.com Mon Sep 13 19:59:04 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: Really OT: Any tar experts here? Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1EA45@hobbit.t-iii.com> My bet would be ls. With Kornshell: tar cvf /dev/rmt0 $(ls -1F dir1 dir2 dir3 dir4 ... | grep -v "/") Try:- tar cvf junkfile $(ls -1F dir1 dir2 dir3 dir4 ... | grep -v "/") as a test. Otherwise you need to run a shell script with test to sort out dirs from files. Neil Morrison > -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Merchberger [SMTP:zmerch@30below.com] > Sent: Monday, September 13, 1999 5:12 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Really OT: Any tar experts here? > > Sorry for the off-topic post, but I'm tired of beating what's left of my > brains on what's left of my desk... Please, Please, Please, private email > replies only. > > Non-essential info: I'm writing a selective backup program in Perl to read > a config file, use the info to create a list of directories to be backed > up, then give that listing to tar to back up the information. > > Essential info: Problem is, I have directories that I want backed up, but > with subdirectories that I *don't* want backed up; yet when I feed the > list > of dir's to tar, it recursively backs up the dir's anyway. > > Is there a way (program switch, special version of tar, anything...) to > tell tar to not recurse subdirectories, or do I need to write a > sub-program > that extracts each individual filename? > > Thanks in advance for any help that can be provided. > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Sep 13 19:52:08 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HP IC numbers was:Re: Britain is Great (Back from the Island) In-Reply-To: References: <199909131640.SAA25117@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <4.1.19990913204800.00abbc80@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 07:12 PM 9/13/99 +0100, Tony Duell said something like: >> All but 3 parts have a numbering like 1820-0xxx, wher xxx is > >Almost all HP logic chips are 1820-xxxx :-). And these ones are not in my >list of equivalents, which means they might well be custom (I would >suspect a lot of them are, since there's nowhere near enough parts to >make a calculator using MSI TTL here). -- snip -- Tony and others: I can't recall for sure but has someone posted anywhere a cross ref list between HP house numbers and industry equivalent numbers? I thought there was some discussion here a long time ago about this but I'm subscribed to several other lists which could have had the same type of discussion. Thanks for any pointers folks! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 13 19:59:46 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: Really OT: Any tar experts here? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990913201201.00939d50@mail.30below.com> References: <00bf01befe3e$3893f280$0f55fea9@cel-366> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990913195946.01ce6150@vpwisfirewall> At 08:12 PM 9/13/99 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >Essential info: Problem is, I have directories that I want backed up, but >with subdirectories that I *don't* want backed up; yet when I feed the list >of dir's to tar, it recursively backs up the dir's anyway. As always with Unix, there's eight ways to skin the cat, and sixteen if you're god-like enough to write C programs with 'cat'. I think the easy way would be to write your Perl or shell script that assembles the list of files to backup, with absolute or relative paths as needed, and write those filenames to a file, then tell 'tar' to read its names from that text file instead of trying to trick its recursion into doing the right thing. This makes the problem more chunkable and more easily debugged, too. - John From at258 at osfn.org Mon Sep 13 20:02:12 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HELP! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990913181029.39b76a8e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: Can someone out there help this fellow? He turned up at the Retro-Computing Society of RI/Rhode Island Computer Museum's Annual Cookout Sunday, and is looking desperately for an ASR-33 paper tape punch to use on an old CNC milling machine. tomfool@top.gso.uri.edu Thanks. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Sep 13 21:19:17 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HELP! Kaypro 2X Drive (Was: HELP! Osbourne drives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990913211917.4ac710f8@mailhost.intellistar.net> How long can you use the disks before they fail? It sounds like you just need to replace the disks more often. Floppy disks aren't intended to last forever. When I worked for Burroughs and 8" floppy disks were still new, we were told to replace them every 40 hours. If you're getting less life then it sounds like the head is cocked and putting too much pressure in one spot or else there's too much pressure on the head. I don't know how that could happen though. Joe At 04:36 PM 9/13/99 -0700, you wrote: >This made me remember that I have a perhaps similar problem with one of my Kaypro drives. It works at first, but eventually wears away portions of the disk making the disk unusable. (After a few uses, if you hold the disk up to the light there are arcs that are clear.) I assume this is a head alignment issue. If so, is there an easy way to realign the heads (perhaps dropping the unit a la Apple III), or should I just look for another floppy drive? > > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 13 20:07:44 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HELP! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990913181029.39b76a8e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990913200744.01ce5810@vpwisfirewall> At 09:02 PM 9/13/99 -0400, you wrote: > >Can someone out there help this fellow? > >He turned up at the Retro-Computing Society of RI/Rhode Island Computer >Museum's Annual Cookout Sunday, and is looking desperately for an ASR-33 >paper tape punch to use on an old CNC milling machine. The RTTY Greenkeys list at might be helpful. They tend to look down their nose at the ASR-33, which is regarded as a lightweight consumer version of what they like to play with. - John From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Sep 13 21:22:33 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HP IC numbers was:Re: Britain is Great (Back from the Island) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990913204800.00abbc80@206.231.8.2> References: <199909131640.SAA25117@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990913212233.0b3fc54e@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:52 PM 9/13/99 -0400, Chris said: >Tony and others: > >I can't recall for sure but has someone posted anywhere a cross ref list >between HP house numbers and industry equivalent numbers? I thought there >was some discussion here a long time ago about this but I'm subscribed to >several other lists which could have had the same type of discussion. > >Thanks for any pointers folks! Yes, there is one posted at Sphere's website at "http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/". For some reason, some of the people in Europe have trouble acccessing it. Joe From wsmith at gj.com Mon Sep 13 20:22:04 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HELP! Kaypro 2X Drive (Was: HELP! Osbourne drives) Message-ID: >>> Joe 09/13 9:19 PM >>> >How long can you use the disks before they fail? Only 3-4 times. From wsmith at gj.com Mon Sep 13 20:25:22 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HELP! Kaypro 2X Drive (Was: HELP! Osbourne drives) Message-ID: >>>> 09/13 5:39 PM >>> >>This made me remember that I have a perhaps similar problem with one of my >>Kaypro drives. It works at first, but eventually wears away portions of the >>disk making the disk unusable. (After a few uses, if you hold the disk >>up to the light there are arcs >>that are clear.) I assume this is a head alignment issue. > >Why assume this? And why is everyone so quick to assume that the >first thing you want to do to a floppy drive is realign the heads? >Reminds me of those folks who insist on tweaking the IF cores in all >their AM/FM radios without the proper test equipment, and then they >wonder why it doesn't perform so well anymore... > >In my experience, the only floppy drives I've ever had to realign >the heads on were drives that someone else decided to align the heads on :-). > >Two questions: > >1. Single sided drive? If so, check the head load pad. An extremely >worn head load pad will gouge up the media for sure. > >2. Double sided drive? If so, is there anything wedged in the spring >supports that'll make the heads press against the media with too much >force? It's double sided. I'll have a look at the springs as you suggest. I think you've answered your own question as to why I assumed bad head alignment --- it's what everyone always tells you. (Particularly if the unit was shipped without disk protectors installed.) Something of an urban myth I suppose. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 ! ! ! From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Sep 13 21:35:06 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: HELP! Kaypro 2X Drive (Was: HELP! Osbourne drives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990913213506.498f677e@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 06:22 PM 9/13/99 -0700, you wrote: >>>> Joe 09/13 9:19 PM >>> >>How long can you use the disks before they fail? > >Only 3-4 times. Yow! Definitely something wrong there! > > > > From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Sep 13 20:31:13 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > FWo [channel list] Four-wire ohms; needs special connections and two > > multiplexer assemblies. > > Or from the 4 sockets on the front panel if you don't need multiple > channels ? Yes. > > One thing _not_ to do with an HP3421: if you remove a > > multiplexer assembly and turn the thing on, it will notice > > that it is missing, and the next time you plug it in, it > > will label the assembly as "uncalibrated", requiring you to complete > > the calibration procedure (all calibration is done in software). > > Uh-Oh... I am _sure_ I've done this to mine. If it's uncalibrated, does > it just not work until it's recalibrated, or does it give suspect > readings, or what. How hard is it to calibrate one? If it's uncalibrated, it will report a "calibration RAM checksum error" in the POST (more later). The first reading taken from it will be an error, then it will continue to work fine. The reason why these assemblies even have to do with the calibration constants is that a temperature reading is taken from the assembly's sensor for the purpose of cold junction compensation, and this reading must be calibrated. It is not hard to calibrate an HP3421 with the right equipment. You need a voltage standard capable of supplying 0.3V, 3V, 30V, 300V, and 3Vrms at 100Hz, a 6.5 digit multimeter, a thermometer with 0.1C or better accuracy (HP wanted you to buy a special part #, (a thermistor) that you would use with the temperature function of the 3456A, just for this), and the following resistors: 100 +/- 0.0005%, 1K +/- 0.0005%, 10K +/- 0.001%, 1M +/- 0.002%, 10M +/- 0.01% . Basically, you turn off the power first (never power down the 3421 with the calibration enable switch enabled! cal. RAM corruption may result), set the calibration switch to "enable", power up, clear any error conditions from the status, set the appropriate range and function to calibrate, feed test voltages to it while you tell it to compute the calibration constants. Then you disable the calibration switch, power off, power on back again and that's it. I can give more details on request. Just let me write something more about the POST: the LCD shows the results of some tests. If something is wrong, the arrow next to the "error" sign will light up, and the error numbers will appear for about 1 1/2 seconds before the LCD returns to its normal function of displaying which channels are closed. The error # 's are as follows: 0 Calibration RAM checksum error 1 ROM 1 bad 2 ROM 2 bad 3 A/D slope error 4 uP RAM bad 5 Internal RAM 1 bad 6 Internal RAM 2 bad 7 Failed 10Mohm test (not within 20%) 27 Low battery, unit will shut off in 3 seconds. > Thanks for the info! > > -tony You're welcome. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 13 16:26:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:17 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990913170443.3a970d8a@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Sep 13, 99 05:04:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1344 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990913/c32286ea/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 13 16:35:47 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: HP-46 calculator (was Re: Britain is Great (Back from the Island)) In-Reply-To: <19990913201110.29632.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Sep 13, 99 08:11:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 718 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990913/1fd1d317/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 13 17:12:45 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Unopened classic what should I do??? In-Reply-To: <199909132135.RAA09295@phantom.golden.net> from "Kevin Stumpf/Unusual systems" at Sep 13, 99 05:35:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1197 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990913/7c0041ec/attachment.ksh From cem14 at cornell.edu Mon Sep 13 20:41:34 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > The best (only?) low level reference to HP_IL is "The HP-IL System: An > > Introductory Guide to the Hewlett-Packard Interface Loop" by Kane, Harper > > and Ushijima published by Osbourne/McGraw Hill. It is (was?) available > > through any book store. It's manadatory if you're interested in low level > > details about HP-IL. Joe: I've found that the original HP specs document by HP is more explicit about all hardware aspects, and more to the point. However, I must say that I learned most that I know about _programming_ the HPIL from Kane et al. > > The HPIB is a kludge :-). The basic instrument is HPIL, and the HPIB > board is a microcontroller + ROMs + 1LB3 + interface parts. There's a 4 > pole changeover switch that links the HPIL port on the main board either > to the external connector or to the HP-IL port on the HPIB card. That > card then translates HPIB commands/data into HPIL ones -- sort of like a > special 82169. Tony: I would not call it a kludge. According to HPIB instrument design standards, the computer communications should be electrically isolated from the instrument's electronics. In the particular case of the 3421, using the intrinsic electrical isolation provided by the HPIL loop's pulse xformers to fulfill this requirement is actually sensible cost-conscious engineering. Best regards, Carlos. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Sep 13 20:58:55 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: HELP! Kaypro 2X Drive (Was: HELP! Osbourne drives) Message-ID: <990913215855.202005e1@trailing-edge.com> >It's double sided. I'll have a look at the springs as you suggest. >I think you've answered your own question as to why I assumed bad head >alignment --- it's what everyone always tells you. (Particularly if the unit >was shipped without disk protectors installed.) Something of an urban myth >I suppose. The shipping cardboard doesn't really protect alignment - it's there to keep the heads from banging into each other. Indeed, if there is some physical damage to the heads this could cause it to gouge up the media too. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 13 20:55:07 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990914015507.31833.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Yes, the HP-IB version of the ThinkJet does the same thing. I haven't Tony replied: > I am _amazed_. You mean there are 2 1LB3's in an HPIB thinkjet for no > good reason???? No, there's just one in there. The Thinkjet controller chip has an IL interface built in. (It's equivalent to a 1LB3, but it's not a separate chip.) From wsmith at gj.com Mon Sep 13 21:13:16 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Need ID for IBM Cards Message-ID: I was just going through a box of old files (circa 1970) that my office is throwing out and I found four cards that I need an ID on. They are the same size and shape as a standard puch card, but appear to be made of some sort of magnetic media. They are approximately the color of standard magnetic cassette tape on one side, and nearly black on the other. Each card has "IBM" printed on it in white with a direction arrow next to it in one corner of the card directly opposite the notch. In the corner with the notch there are two groups of 3 digits, also in white. The cards have what appear to be track marks on them in three parallel rows on the horizontal, as if fed through a reader. Thanks. If it would be useful I post a scan of one of these. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 13 20:55:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: HELP! Kaypro 2X Drive (Was: HELP! Osbourne drives) In-Reply-To: <990913203939.202005e1@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Sep 13, 99 08:39:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1678 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990914/ebd1890f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 13 21:01:00 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: from "cem14@cornell.edu" at Sep 13, 99 09:31:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1963 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990914/17a259ec/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 13 21:34:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: <19990914015507.31833.qmail@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Sep 14, 99 01:55:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 578 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990914/eb2ecbf8/attachment.ksh From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Sep 13 21:52:34 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Need ID for IBM Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Wayne Smith wrote: > I was just going through a box of old files (circa 1970) that my office is throwing out and I found four cards that I need an ID on. They are the same size and shape as a standard puch card, but appear to be made of some sort of magnetic media. They are approximately the color of standard magnetic cassette tape on one side, and nearly black on the other. Each card has "IBM" printed on it in white with Are the cards notched on the sides? There were several semi-random access mass storage devices that used such cards... basically a magnetic analog of a punched card. Slightly off the topic: I saw an early IBM device called a STRAM (Selective Tape Random Access Memory) which used 2" wide tape loops of about 12" diameter... they were placed on a mandrel which stretched them into an oval for reading/writing. Also, IBM had an early office automation product called an MTST (Magnetic Tape Selectric Typewriter) which used early tape cartridges. Did not the RAMAC use magnetic cards? Somewhere around here I have a description of an IBM device that used individual magnetic cards... of course I can't find it... been re-arranging the library... it's Hell. Cheers John From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Sep 13 21:52:04 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: HELP! Kaypro 2X Drive (Was: HELP! Osbourne drives) Message-ID: <199909140252.WAA16162@world.std.com> <>>>> Joe 09/13 9:19 PM >>> <>>How long can you use the disks before they fail? <> <>Only 3-4 times. < < Yow! Definitely something wrong there! Everytime I see that it's a glob of hardend media glued to the head. Allison From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Sep 13 21:51:20 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990913170443.3a970d8a@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.1.16.19990913080909.2307fece@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > Yes, the HP-IB version of the ThinkJet does the same thing. I haven't Is this something worth picking up if I see one in a junk yard? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Sep 13 21:57:54 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: 5 1/4 floppies on laptop In-Reply-To: <01befe3b$0359e0a0$6257ddcc@sring.uslink.net> Message-ID: > > I would like to run 5 1/4 floppies on an older laptop. Can anyone >recommend a laptop that had this size drive? Or which older laptops had >ports for 5 1/4 external floppie drives? sring@uslink.net > > > IBM 5140? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Sep 13 22:14:53 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Unopened classic what should I do??? In-Reply-To: References: <199909132135.RAA09295@phantom.golden.net> from "Kevin Stumpf/Unusual systems" at Sep 13, 99 05:35:21 pm Message-ID: >> >> > I just got a TRS-80 Model 12!! I just got a TRS-80 Model 12!! nyah >>nyah!! >> > It's un-opened!!! It's un-opened!!! WHOO HOO!!!! My first edition rule is, if I find I have a unique first edition book, I sell it, and buy x times more reading copies of it and other books. Put it on eBay and let somebody who really wants a sealed box enjoy it, while you enjoy their money spending it on working computers. From lance at costanzo.net Mon Sep 13 22:20:17 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Really OT: Any tar experts here? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990913202015.009e0cdc@costanzo.net> Forget tar. Use pax. Put the names of the files you want to backup in a file, feed it in. # collect the files &cmd("pax -w -f $backupname.pax < $backupname.paxin"); # make a listing $ENV{"LC_TIME"} = "%b %e %T %Y"; &cmd("pax -v -f $backupname.pax > $backupname.paxlist"); # compress &cmd("gzip $backupname.pax"); At 08:12 PM 09/13/1999 -0400, you wrote: >Sorry for the off-topic post, but I'm tired of beating what's left of my >brains on what's left of my desk... A bloody mess indeed, oozing onto the already shattered keyboard lying on the floor. Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting lance@costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Sep 13 22:23:28 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: 5 1/4 floppies on laptop Message-ID: <132f956c.250f19b0@aol.com> In a message dated 9/13/99 11:17:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mikeford@socal.rr.com writes: > > > > I would like to run 5 1/4 floppies on an older laptop. Can anyone > >recommend a laptop that had this size drive? Or which older laptops had > >ports for 5 1/4 external floppie drives? sring@uslink.net > > > > > > > > IBM 5140? Unfortunately, the 5140 (convertible) doesnt support 5.25 drives unless someone's hacked one on. Now, if you had a 5155 you could have one 3.5 and one 5.25 as long as you run dos 3.3 or higher. -->this message printed on recycled disk space. visit the computers of yesteryear at: http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From donm at cts.com Mon Sep 13 23:06:00 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: HELP! Kaypro 2X Drive (Was: HELP! Osbourne drives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Wayne Smith wrote: > This made me remember that I have a perhaps similar problem with one > of my Kaypro drives. It works at first, but eventually wears away > portions of the disk making the disk unusable. (After a few uses, if > you hold the disk up to the light there are arcs that are clear.) I > assume this is a head alignment issue. If so, is there an easy way to > realign the heads (perhaps dropping the unit a la Apple III), or should > I just look for another floppy drive? I would be more inclined to suspect magnetic media build up on the heads that needs to be cleaned off. - don From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 14 00:17:45 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Need ID for IBM Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Thanks. If it would be useful I post a scan of one of these. A scan would be interesting to see, I can't imagine what these would be for, as they don't sound like anything I'm familiar with. I know IBM did a small size punch card, but they're paper. I take it these things aren't punched. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 14 00:19:00 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: HP-46 calculator (was Re: Britain is Great (Back from the Island)) In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990914051900.32644.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Actually, RAM chips were usually only 1818 if there was some unique > characteristic, such as a hard-wired address decode. General-purpose > RAM chips were usually 1820. Tony says: > 1818-0156 = 4K 22 pin standard DRAM > 1818-0701 = 6810 128 byte SRAM ... > AFAIK, all of those are standard parts, not custom-modified for HP. Or at > least I've replaced some of them with the equivalents and the device > worked afterwards :-) > > PALs/HALs generally have 1820-numbers, though... Oops, other way around. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 14 02:21:57 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Really OT: Any tar experts here? In-Reply-To: Roger Merchberger "Really OT: Any tar experts here?" (Sep 13, 20:12) References: <3.0.1.32.19990913201201.00939d50@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <9909140821.ZM8407@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 13, 20:12, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Essential info: Problem is, I have directories that I want backed up, but > with subdirectories that I *don't* want backed up; yet when I feed the list > of dir's to tar, it recursively backs up the dir's anyway. > > Is there a way (program switch, special version of tar, anything...) to > tell tar to not recurse subdirectories, or do I need to write a sub-program > that extracts each individual filename? There are probably several ways. Here's a few I've used: 1) use the 'w' option to tar; it will prompt you for each file/dir to be included. Could be tedious, though. 2) use GNU tar, which has an option to read a list of files/dirs to be excluded, from a file. There's a similar option to read the list as part of the command line. I can't remember the options (and this system doesn't have GNU tar so I can't look them up) but I do remember you have to make the pathnames in the file to be *exactly* as tar will see them. 3) use find (or your perl program) to create a list of files to be archived, excluding all directory/subdirectory names; then it won't recurse into subdirectories. Eg: find . -type p -print | tar cf tarfile.tar - The '-type p' makes find only print names of plain files, not directories or special files, etc. Problem is that you will end up with a flat file in which you can't distinguish which directory files came from from. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Tue Sep 14 03:53:49 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Really OT: Any tar experts here? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990913201201.00939d50@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: Roger, Are you using gnu tar? You might want to...you should be able to use the -T (include files list) and -X (exclude files list) options for this. Like: system("/usr/bin/tar -T ./include.list -X ./exclude.list"); Or sans shell: $result=system("/usr/bin/tar", "-T ./include.list", "-X./exclude.list"); For dumb versions of tar, you can probably get creative with executing cat as a subshell (inside backquotes) like: $tar cvf backupfile.tar `cat include.list` or some such rubbish. If you do that, you can cheat and use the tee command (if it's on your system...) to split the piped output into a results file. I'm sure there are more elegant solutions, but what do you want after a couple-of-few pints of Guinness? I personally use the Archive::Tar module for this kind of thing though: ftp://cpan.nas.nasa.gov/pub/perl/CPAN/modules/by-module/Archive Have fun! Aaron On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Sorry for the off-topic post, but I'm tired of beating what's left of my > brains on what's left of my desk... Please, Please, Please, private email > replies only. > > Non-essential info: I'm writing a selective backup program in Perl to read > a config file, use the info to create a list of directories to be backed > up, then give that listing to tar to back up the information. > > Essential info: Problem is, I have directories that I want backed up, but > with subdirectories that I *don't* want backed up; yet when I feed the list > of dir's to tar, it recursively backs up the dir's anyway. > > Is there a way (program switch, special version of tar, anything...) to > tell tar to not recurse subdirectories, or do I need to write a sub-program > that extracts each individual filename? > > Thanks in advance for any help that can be provided. > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Tue Sep 14 04:01:44 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Really OT: Any tar experts here? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990913174157.00b9ed80@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > Well if you're going to be that way about it. > Short answer : use CPIO A good choice, since it's so widely compatible and is very flexible. Nice for backups to tapes because you can specify 5120 bytes/record input blocks. Also nice because you can actually do *full* backups with things like device files, etc (tar won't do device files). I think the most important thing, though, is the recovery from bad blocks - which kills a tar restore... > Longer answer : ../src/gnu/usr.bin/tar > make it do anything you want :-) Now you're talking... From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Tue Sep 14 04:04:23 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Really OT: Any tar experts here? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, meant to go directly to Roger... On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Roger, From at258 at osfn.org Tue Sep 14 04:16:58 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Need ID for IBM Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sounds like a magcard, probably from an old MagcardII typewriter or a Displaywriter. On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Wayne Smith wrote: > I was just going through a box of old files (circa 1970) that my office is throwing out and I found four cards that I need an ID on. They are the same size and shape as a standard puch card, but appear to be made of some sort of magnetic media. They are approximately the color of standard magnetic cassette tape on one side, and nearly black on the other. Each card has "IBM" printed on it in white with a direction arrow next to it in one corner of the card directly opposite the notch. In the corner with the notch there are two groups of 3 digits, also in white. > > The cards have what appear to be track marks on them in three parallel rows on the horizontal, as if fed through a reader. > > Thanks. If it would be useful I post a scan of one of these. > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From DD950 at prodigy.net Tue Sep 14 05:20:30 1999 From: DD950 at prodigy.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Why is the Coleco Adam so damn popular? Message-ID: <01f501befe9a$c71ae5c0$0f55fea9@cel-366> This might be a bit off of at least the current topics, but probably the best place to ask this question. I have to admit i bought one of the Coleco Adam computers in the summer of 1984 (The Adam bomb). I soon found that it really didn't work and like most I returned it to Toy-R-Us for a refund. I bought a KayPro 2X then and was very happy with it. Used it up until 1993. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990914/b5f5ccbc/attachment.html From DD950 at prodigy.net Tue Sep 14 05:34:38 1999 From: DD950 at prodigy.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Why is the Coleco Adam so popular? Message-ID: <020101befe9c$c028b880$0f55fea9@cel-366> Sorry for the previous post, it got away from me before I was finished :-( This might be a bit off of at least the current topics, but probably the best place to ask this question. I have to admit I bought one of the Coleco Adam computers in the summer of 1984 (The Adam bomb). I soon found that it really didn't work and like most I returned it to Toys-R-Us for a refund. I bought a KayPro 2X then and was very happy with it. I used the KayPro up until 1993. Recently I searched for information on the Kaypro on the Web and other than some pictures of the old machines I really found very little about the KayPro computers or company. But then tonight I noticed a link to a Web site on the darn Coleco Adam and I found that there are still many devotees of the little system, many Web pages, and even complete systems for sell!! These people are still having conventions!! I would think it would be the other way around. It seems as the Kaypro should still have it's UG's and Web sites and the almost worthless Adam would be long forgotten. Can somebody tell me why the Adam has enjoyed so much loyalty from people 14 years after the two year poduction run ended in bankruptcy? I really am mystified by this. Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990914/7bdad4ba/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 14 09:20:10 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: HELP! Kaypro 2X Drive (Was: HELP! Osbourne drives) Message-ID: <000401befebc$4172c560$0400c0a8@winbook> I've seen lots of floppies with this problem. I find that it occurs on systems which (a) leave the motor on and the head loaded (not an option on low-cost 5-1/4" drives, the head was always loaded) and (2) drives with some form of contamination, i.e. particulates, on either the head or the head-load pad. Dust and smoke are often the offending contaminant, i.e. they damage the extremely hard surface of the head, normally polished to a very fine finish, and leave a burr which subsequently scratches the emulsion off the media. In any case, the problem is much scarcer in "clean" environments than in my basement or anyplace like it. Solution: (a) take the media out of the drive when it's not in use and (b) make the fan in whatever enclosure houses the drive blow into rather than suck out of the enclosure, preferably through a filter of some sort. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 6:41 PM Subject: RE: HELP! Kaypro 2X Drive (Was: HELP! Osbourne drives) >>This made me remember that I have a perhaps similar problem with one of my >>Kaypro drives. It works at first, but eventually wears away portions of the >>disk making the disk unusable. (After a few uses, if you hold the disk >>up to the light there are arcs >>that are clear.) I assume this is a head alignment issue. > >Why assume this? And why is everyone so quick to assume that the >first thing you want to do to a floppy drive is realign the heads? >Reminds me of those folks who insist on tweaking the IF cores in all >their AM/FM radios without the proper test equipment, and then they >wonder why it doesn't perform so well anymore... > >In my experience, the only floppy drives I've ever had to realign >the heads on were drives that someone else decided to align the heads on :-). > >Two questions: > >1. Single sided drive? If so, check the head load pad. An extremely >worn head load pad will gouge up the media for sure. > >2. Double sided drive? If so, is there anything wedged in the spring >supports that'll make the heads press against the media with too much >force? > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 14 09:21:34 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: HP IC numbers was:Re: Britain is Great (Back from the Island) Message-ID: <000901befebc$73797900$0400c0a8@winbook> Those 1820-xxxx numbers remind me of lots of HP boards I've looked at over the years. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 7:05 PM Subject: HP IC numbers was:Re: Britain is Great (Back from the Island) >Upon the date 07:12 PM 9/13/99 +0100, Tony Duell said something like: > >>> All but 3 parts have a numbering like 1820-0xxx, wher xxx is >> >>Almost all HP logic chips are 1820-xxxx :-). And these ones are not in my >>list of equivalents, which means they might well be custom (I would >>suspect a lot of them are, since there's nowhere near enough parts to >>make a calculator using MSI TTL here). > > -- snip -- > >Tony and others: > >I can't recall for sure but has someone posted anywhere a cross ref list >between HP house numbers and industry equivalent numbers? I thought there >was some discussion here a long time ago about this but I'm subscribed to >several other lists which could have had the same type of discussion. > >Thanks for any pointers folks! > >Regards, Chris >-- -- >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 14 09:24:10 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Unopened classic what should I do??? Message-ID: <001401befebc$d08c1260$0400c0a8@winbook> The model 12 was no great thing . . . Unopened and in unused condition, however, it might bring a fair price on eBay. That's what I'd do if I had to deal with this. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, September 13, 1999 7:36 PM Subject: Re: Unopened classic what should I do??? >> >> > I just got a TRS-80 Model 12!! I just got a TRS-80 Model 12!! nyah nyah!! >> > It's un-opened!!! It's un-opened!!! WHOO HOO!!!! >> > >> > >> >Dilemma: >> > Should I open it and smellthe sweet scent of the ancient '80's air trapped >> >in it's plastic bags or let it be, and keep it's un-opened pristine >> >state??? >> > >> Just having the original packaging is remarkable. >> >> As for me and my collection, we say keep it intact and untouched for as long >> as you can. > >This is certainly a YMMV thing.... > >I'd say the opposite -- open it (as carefully as possible) and keep the >packaging (assuming you have the space ;-)). > >I collect old computers because I enjoy using them, I enjoy fixing them, >I enjoy figuring out how they work, I learn from them, etc. Not because I >want to own 'valuable' objects. > >So a computer (in unknown working condition, remember!) in a sealed box >has no interest to me at all. The same machine upacked, tested, and >operational would be fun. > >For the same reason (and I know I'll draw flames here), if I ever >obtained an unbuilt kit for something, my first aim would be to build it. >A box of components is not interesting to me, the final object is. > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 14 09:31:50 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Why is the Coleco Adam so popular? Message-ID: <003701befebd$e28084a0$0400c0a8@winbook> The Coleco "Adam" was one of the first mass-marketed "home" computers which was sold as a complete unit, i.e. it had a printer and storage device (originally a tape drive of some odd sort), and coming from a relatively popular game maker didn't hurt either. The basic unit IIRC cost very little and, I'm not sure of this, but I do recall a price of <$500 for the entire mess. The price was quite low, so it was quite frequently purchased. People unwilling to admit they couldn't get it to do anything useful simply threw them out and bought a Kaypro or something similar. I saw many of these make the trip from the store to the dumpster in less than a month, though, since they only "sorta" worked. The challenge here was to make them do something useful, which was quite a feat, I guess. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jim To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 4:37 AM Subject: Why is the Coleco Adam so popular? Sorry for the previous post, it got away from me before I was finished :-( This might be a bit off of at least the current topics, but probably the best place to ask this question. I have to admit I bought one of the Coleco Adam computers in the summer of 1984 (The Adam bomb). I soon found that it really didn't work and like most I returned it to Toys-R-Us for a refund. I bought a KayPro 2X then and was very happy with it. I used the KayPro up until 1993. Recently I searched for information on the Kaypro on the Web and other than some pictures of the old machines I really found very little about the KayPro computers or company. But then tonight I noticed a link to a Web site on the darn Coleco Adam and I found that there are still many devotees of the little system, many Web pages, and even complete systems for sell!! These people are still having conventions!! I would think it would be the other way around. It seems as the Kaypro should still have it's UG's and Web sites and the almost worthless Adam would be long forgotten. Can somebody tell me why the Adam has enjoyed so much loyalty from people 14 years after the two year poduction run ended in bankruptcy? I really am mystified by this. Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990914/fd9b639d/attachment.html From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Sep 14 11:44:14 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Unopened classic what should I do??? In-Reply-To: <199909140018.RAA05586@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: Arfon Gryffydd's message of "Mon, 13 Sep 1999 16:30:38 -0500" Message-ID: <199909141445.QAA17107@horus.mch.sni.de> > > Dilemma: > > Should I open it and smellthe sweet scent of the ancient '80's air trapped > > in it's plastic bags or let it be, and keep it's un-opened pristine > > state??? A virgin. Un-touched by end-user hands. > Consider: will the packaging degrade over time in a way that affects > the artifact? Shipping cartons aren't really intended for long-term > storage, they're intended to protect the contents during shipment > which hopefully won't take 20 years. Styrofoam and plastics can melt > if they get too hot (i.e. styrofoam peanuts and plastic bubble wrap > tend to have lower melting points than do computer cases and cords, > and those temperatures can easily be reached in shelters that are > exposed to sunlight like outdoor sheds), and rubbers and glues can dry > out and/or turn gooey over time. This can be undone - just as one often has to remove other markings and glued stuff to get them back to a displayable state. And light and dust can offer a lot more trubble on long term than som degraded coatings. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Sep 14 11:44:14 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Unopened classic what should I do??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990913163038.00a1a390@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: <199909141445.QAA17103@horus.mch.sni.de> > Bragging part: > I just got a TRS-80 Model 12!! I just got a TRS-80 Model 12!! nyah nyah!! > It's un-opened!!! It's un-opened!!! WHOO HOO!!!! Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh > Dilemma: > Should I open it and smellthe sweet scent of the ancient '80's air trapped > in it's plastic bags or let it be, and keep it's un-opened pristine > state??? A virgin. Un-touched by end-user hands. > I really don't have any software for it... what should I do??? Keep it Virgin (and send it to me :). No, serious, I'll maybe keep it unopened for years ... But if you try, try to open it as carefull as possible - no riping or whatever. And then put it exactly back as it has been - every bubble als platic or paper pice. And you might open it again in some years - or yust show your friends, and look at their eyes if one _realy_ has to unpack it. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Sep 14 11:57:55 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: HP IC numbers was:Re: Britain is Great (Back from the Island) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990913212233.0b3fc54e@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <4.1.19990913204800.00abbc80@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <199909141458.QAA17806@horus.mch.sni.de> > >I can't recall for sure but has someone posted anywhere a cross ref list > >between HP house numbers and industry equivalent numbers? I thought there > >was some discussion here a long time ago about this but I'm subscribed to > >several other lists which could have had the same type of discussion. > >Thanks for any pointers folks! > Yes, there is one posted at Sphere's website at > "http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/". For some reason, some of the people in > Europe have trouble acccessing it. Well, great, but just my parts are not included :( Thanks anyway, another resource. H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jcmitch at fcc.net Tue Sep 14 09:55:20 1999 From: jcmitch at fcc.net (John C. Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: TSR 80 Message-ID: <37DE61D8.423BB9B5@fcc.net> I have a TSR 80 that is tape driven not disk driven. I also have a number of games for it. Is this worth anything. John C. Mitchell From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 14 09:56:48 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Intel Stuff from the early '80's Message-ID: <004801befec1$5fa143e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Back in the heyday of 8-bit micros I got involved with a couple of clients who thought the Intel 16-bit processors were pretty cool. Ultimately I was left with a bunch of software documentation and some software (copied, I suppose). Some of the software and documentation actually go together, so I though I'd make an initial offer to this group in case there's someone crazy enough to pursue this sort of stuff. I have lots ( close to 25 kg ) of manuals in the original blue Intel binders containing documents on various Intel development tools of the early 8086 era, including, I believe, Pascal, Assembler, various OS's (they were experimenting with several at the time) PL/M, among others. There's also a batch, obviously intended to go together, of 8" diskettes marked iAPX Source Code which has in it diskettes marked "CP/M to ISIS Translator" in CP/M SSSD format, RTCS UDI, PL/M-80, and LOTS of other iRMX stuff all in ISIS format (whatever that is) seemingly the source code for an entire development OS. Is anybody interested enough to want this stuff shipped to them at THEIR expense? That means I carry the stuff to the Mailboxes, Etc shop, get a quote on the packing and shipping cost, carry it back and, when your check clears, have it shipped to you. Dick Dick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990914/68a8f5b2/attachment.html From arfonrg at texas.net Tue Sep 14 10:17:37 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Unopened classic... In-Reply-To: <199909141445.QAA17107@horus.mch.sni.de> References: <199909140018.RAA05586@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990914101737.00937100@207.207.0.212> Well, I have decided to let it be for now. I am worried that there might be critters (bugs) in there (through the hand-holes). I don't want to put it on eBay because I am not out to make $$$. All I need to find is a 3x3x3 glass box and a tank of nitrogen. (And a borescope so I can look at it). A ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Sep 14 12:16:16 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990913164728.3a979b48@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <199909131654.SAA25553@horus.mch.sni.de> Message-ID: <199909141517.RAA18728@horus.mch.sni.de> > >> a Heathkit Hero Robot and a HP 3468 meter with HP-IL interface. :-) Found > >> out later that I missed a Lisa keyboard. > >Waitamoment - I can help - What about a trade ? > Nope, I don't think so! I only need a couple of Lisa keytops. Well, if you just need the keytops ... TRADE ! For a Hero I might even plunder some of my Lisa spare parts (I have almost a complete Lisa as genuine Apple spare parts ...). > >Lisa keyboard vs. Hero ? I may even throw in > >an additional TI 74 ? > What the hell is a TI 74? A small hand held Basic computer from TI. I just aquired some. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From arfonrg at texas.net Tue Sep 14 10:21:01 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Archiving old discs... Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990914102101.00937cc0@207.207.0.212> I picked up an AppleII CP/M card and software yesterday and causes me to raise a question... I have a ton of old 5.25" discs from TRS-80's, Apples and etc. Can I use a IBM Compatible and a disc image program (like scopy) to archive these discs? If not, how can I archive these programs? Thanks A ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Sep 14 10:46:01 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Archiving old discs... Message-ID: <990914114601.20200658@trailing-edge.com> >I picked up an AppleII CP/M card and software yesterday and causes me to >raise a question... > >I have a ton of old 5.25" discs from TRS-80's, Apples and etc. Can I use a >IBM Compatible and a disc image program (like scopy) to archive these >discs? In some cases, yes, you can use something like Teledisk to make foreign disk images on the PC. In other cases (most notably Apple floppies) only the original hardware on the Apple, or very specialized hardware on the PC, can read/write the disks. > If not, how can I archive these programs? You can read, for example, Apple disks on the Apple and move the image data over a serial cable to a PC (or your favorite workstation/mini/mainframe). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From arfonrg at texas.net Tue Sep 14 10:50:52 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Archiving old discs... In-Reply-To: <990914114601.20200658@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990914105052.009ac540@207.207.0.212> >You can read, for example, Apple disks on the Apple and move the image >data over a serial cable to a PC (or your favorite workstation/mini/mainframe). Forgive me for being dense but, how do you get an Apple to create the image file and send it out the serial cable? ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Sep 14 11:08:26 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Archiving old discs... Message-ID: <990914120826.20200658@trailing-edge.com> >>You can read, for example, Apple disks on the Apple and move the image >>data over a serial cable to a PC (or your favorite workstation/mini/ >>mainframe). >Forgive me for being dense but, how do you get an Apple to create the image >file and send it out the serial cable? My favorite tool is Warren Toomey's "apl2serial", available by anonymous FTP from ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/apple2/ There are also numerous other tools available on any of the gigabytes-of- Apple II-copyright-violations disk image sites. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From wsmith at gj.com Tue Sep 14 11:27:58 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Need ID for IBM Cards [+ Picture] Message-ID: I think you're right. You are the second person to ID the cards as from an early memory typewriter. I should have mentioned in my earlier post that each of the cards was paperclipped to a carbon copy of a document. Based on the length of the documents, these cards didn't hold much. I have posted a scan of a couple of these cards at http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/_uimages/IBMCards.jpg to the extent that it helps in further IDing them. Thanks. >>>> "Merle K. Peirce" 09/14 2:16 AM >>> >Sounds like a magcard, probably from an old MagcardII typewriter or a >Displaywriter. > >On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Wayne Smith wrote: > >> I was just going through a box of old files (circa 1970) that my office is throwing out and I found four cards that I need an ID on. >>They are the same size and shape as a standard puch card, but appear to be made of some sort of magnetic media. They are >>approximately the color of standard magnetic cassette tape on one side, and nearly black on the other. Each card has "IBM" >>printed on it in white with a direction arrow next to it in one corner of the card directly opposite the notch. In the corner with the >>notch there are two groups of 3 digits, also in white. >> >> The cards have what appear to be track marks on them in three parallel rows on the horizontal, as if fed through a reader. >> >> Thanks. If it would be useful I post a scan of one of these. >> > >M. K. Peirce >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. >215 Shady Lea Road, >North Kingstown, RI 02852 > >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid ! ! ! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 14 11:27:54 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Archiving old discs... In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990914105052.009ac540@207.207.0.212> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Sep 14, 99 10:50:52 am Message-ID: <199909141627.JAA27183@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 380 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990914/d184f65a/attachment.ksh From foxvideo at wincom.net Tue Sep 14 11:34:22 1999 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Why is the Coleco Adam so damn popular? In-Reply-To: <01f501befe9a$c71ae5c0$0f55fea9@cel-366> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990914123422.007a8850@mail.wincom.net> At 03:20 AM 9/14/1999 -0700, you wrote: > This might be a bit off of at least the current topics, but probably >the best place to ask this question. I soon found that it really >didn't work and like most I returned it to Toy-R-Us for a refund. >Used it up until 1993. I think it is human sympathy for an underdog. I'm told the reason people AT FIRST bought the VW Beetle was because it was so homely. (Don't shoot, I had one in 1956.) Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo@wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo From DD950 at prodigy.net Tue Sep 14 11:37:40 1999 From: DD950 at prodigy.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Unopened classic... Message-ID: <029e01befecf$7748d5e0$0f55fea9@cel-366> It would be interesting to find out what something like that would bring on eBay. You could list it with a very high reserve that would most likely never be met, just to see what something like that is now worth. We might be pleasantly surprised, or then again, we might find out that most people do not share our passion for old computers and you have only an interesting box of old stuff. You pay shipping, :-( Anyway, keep us informed. Jim Rossbach, Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club Web Ring, www.TonkinYachts.cjb.net God Made Us Sisters and Brothers, Prozac Made Us Friends -----Original Message----- From: Arfon Gryffydd >Well, I have decided to let it be for now. I am worried that there might be >critters (bugs) in there (through the hand-holes). I don't want to put it >on eBay because I am not out to make $$$. > >All I need to find is a 3x3x3 glass box and a tank of nitrogen. (And a >borescope so I can look at it). > From morrison at t-iii.com Tue Sep 14 11:55:13 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: TSR 80 Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1EB8E@hobbit.t-iii.com> Which Model ??? Z-80 or 6809? If you have any docs, I have a couple of web pages where I am posting whatever docs I can find:- http://homepages.msn.com/Arcade/colorcomputer/index.html http://homepages.msn.com/WindowsWay/t80/index.html If all else fails, I'd like any docs, or copies of same. Neil Morrison ph: (604) 293-5710 email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: John C. Mitchell [SMTP:jcmitch@fcc.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 7:55 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: TSR 80 > > I have a TSR 80 that is tape driven not disk driven. I also have a > number of games for it. Is this worth anything. > > John C. Mitchell > From DD950 at prodigy.net Tue Sep 14 11:51:54 1999 From: DD950 at prodigy.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:18 2005 Subject: Why is the Coleco Adam so damn popular? Message-ID: <02d801befed1$73e8a900$0f55fea9@cel-366> -----Original Message----- From: Charles E. Fox > I think it is human sympathy for an underdog. I'm told the reason people >AT FIRST bought the VW Beetle was because it was so homely. (Don't shoot, I >had one in 1956.) > > Regards > Charlie Fox > If that is it, then it would be an interesting ploy for a marketing department. Although, I took such a course at the local community college once and we discussed the COORS beer underdog marketing campaign of the early and mid 70's. Seems they successfully exploited the underdog thing some felt. Yes, everybody laughed at the Beetle, and bought one. Whatever, it is amazing at all the Web sites and new equipment for sell on the Web for the Coleco Adam. I paid $800 for mine in May 1984 and that was/is not really that cheap. There is not that much excitement left for Coleco's Cabbage Patch Dolls of that time. Those dolls were making headlines back then. Thanks for the input, Jim Rossbach, Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club, www.TonkinYachts.cjb.net From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Tue Sep 14 11:57:40 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Why is the Coleco Adam so popular? In-Reply-To: <020101befe9c$c028b880$0f55fea9@cel-366> Message-ID: It was the Adam! Seriously, though, I think it was particularly accessable to people because it grew out of Coleco's popular (and just damn good) video game system. It wasn't nearly as forbidding as a "real" computer system. I myself had a Colecovision from the early 80's that I recently hawked on eBay. Can you blame me? I got a hundred bucks for it with a few games and the Atari module. I've got another in the garage that works better, and the game roms play better on a PC/emulator combo anyway. I used the money to pay the shipping on some "real" computer (classic, of course) gear. This is interesting: call the 800 number from the sticker on the bottom of a Colecovision/Adam. It's now a company called "Adam's House" who are more than happy to mail you out a catalog with ridiculously-high prices on refurbished Coleco systems and peripherals. Just screwing around with some friends one day we gave it a call - we were playing Donkey Kong at the time - and were totally shocked that someone actually picked up the line, let alone resold Coleco stuff! Aaron On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Jim wrote: > Sorry for the previous post, it got away from me before I was finished :-( > > > > This might be a bit off of at least the current topics, but probably the best place to ask this question. > > I have to admit I bought one of the Coleco Adam computers in the summer of 1984 (The Adam bomb). I soon found that it really didn't work and like most I returned it to Toys-R-Us for a refund. > > I bought a KayPro 2X then and was very happy with it. I used the KayPro up until 1993. > > Recently I searched for information on the Kaypro on the Web and other than some pictures of the old machines I really found very little about the KayPro computers or company. > > But then tonight I noticed a link to a Web site on the darn Coleco Adam and I found that there are still many devotees of the little system, many Web pages, and even complete systems for sell!! These people are still having conventions!! I would think it would be the other way around. It seems as the Kaypro should still have it's UG's and Web sites and the almost worthless Adam would be long forgotten. > > Can somebody tell me why the Adam has enjoyed so much loyalty from people 14 years after the two year poduction run ended in bankruptcy? > > I really am mystified by this. > > Jim > From morrison at t-iii.com Tue Sep 14 12:17:10 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Unopened classic... Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1EBD3@hobbit.t-iii.com> IMHO, the best possible use for a Mod II/12 and esp. for the external floppy drive box, would be to make computer thieves have to carry it repeatedly up and down the stairs of a multi story building! Then maybe they'd keep their hands off other peoples property. (Some idiot actually STOLE one of these, way past it's useful date!!!) Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim [SMTP:DD950@prodigy.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 9:38 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Unopened classic... > > It would be interesting to find out what something like that would bring > on > eBay. You could list it with a very high reserve that would most likely > never be met, just to see what something like that is now worth. > > We might be pleasantly surprised, or then again, we might find out that > most > people do not share our passion for old computers and you have only an > interesting box of old stuff. You pay shipping, :-( > > Anyway, keep us informed. > > Jim Rossbach, Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club Web Ring, www.TonkinYachts.cjb.net > > God Made Us Sisters and Brothers, Prozac Made Us Friends > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arfon Gryffydd > > > >Well, I have decided to let it be for now. I am worried that there might > be > >critters (bugs) in there (through the hand-holes). I don't want to put > it > >on eBay because I am not out to make $$$. > > > >All I need to find is a 3x3x3 glass box and a tank of nitrogen. (And a > >borescope so I can look at it). > > > From morrison at t-iii.com Tue Sep 14 12:18:45 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Why is the Coleco Adam so damn popular? Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1EBD7@hobbit.t-iii.com> Well of course the Model 100 from Rad Shack is eternally popular and useful, and there are many (such as me) who keep their Color Computers also. Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim [SMTP:DD950@prodigy.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 9:52 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Why is the Coleco Adam so damn popular? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles E. Fox > > I think it is human sympathy for an underdog. I'm told the reason people > >AT FIRST bought the VW Beetle was because it was so homely. (Don't shoot, > I > >had one in 1956.) > > > > Regards > > Charlie Fox > > > > > > If that is it, then it would be an interesting ploy for a marketing > department. Although, I took such a course at the local community college > once and we discussed the COORS beer underdog marketing campaign of the > early and mid 70's. Seems they successfully exploited the underdog thing > some felt. > > Yes, everybody laughed at the Beetle, and bought one. > > Whatever, it is amazing at all the Web sites and new equipment for sell on > the Web for the Coleco Adam. I paid $800 for mine in May 1984 and that > was/is not really that cheap. There is not that much excitement left for > Coleco's Cabbage Patch Dolls of that time. Those dolls were making > headlines > back then. > > Thanks for the input, > > Jim Rossbach, Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club, www.TonkinYachts.cjb.net > > > > From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Tue Sep 14 12:11:02 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Why is the Coleco Adam so damn popular? In-Reply-To: <02d801befed1$73e8a900$0f55fea9@cel-366> Message-ID: Speaking from the shadows of youthful ignorance (sure I owned a VW bus, bit it was made the same year I was born), I think people bought the Adam for the same reason that they bought the VW: price. Regardless of how it looked, it was a *car* that could be driven on the *highway*! For next to nothing! At least, that's why people in my family bought them. The first-available Adams may have been no real bargain, but subsequent years brought the price down to where you could practically trade a couple of llama skins for one. It was the Christmas that they went under $400 for the whole system that a bunch of my friends got them...and the same Christmas that my parents took out a second mortgage (well, practically) to buy me an Atari system. Believe me, every time the price came down on the Adam I had to tell them again that I'd rather not have a computer at all than have an Adam. Flash idea: it seems that nostalgia seems to be a way for people to "fix" their past mistakes, by reliving their most embarrassing moments with the blinders of experience and knowledge. Since most people consider anything of that era "non-useful", they can safely remember the Adam as that great old computer they bought for next-to-nothing without having to face the reality that it was actually a real hunk of shit. Anyone? Aaron On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Jim wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles E. Fox > > I think it is human sympathy for an underdog. I'm told the reason people > >AT FIRST bought the VW Beetle was because it was so homely. (Don't shoot, I > >had one in 1956.) > > > > Regards > > Charlie Fox > > > > > > If that is it, then it would be an interesting ploy for a marketing > department. Although, I took such a course at the local community college > once and we discussed the COORS beer underdog marketing campaign of the > early and mid 70's. Seems they successfully exploited the underdog thing > some felt. > > Yes, everybody laughed at the Beetle, and bought one. > > Whatever, it is amazing at all the Web sites and new equipment for sell on > the Web for the Coleco Adam. I paid $800 for mine in May 1984 and that > was/is not really that cheap. There is not that much excitement left for > Coleco's Cabbage Patch Dolls of that time. Those dolls were making headlines > back then. > > Thanks for the input, > > Jim Rossbach, Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club, www.TonkinYachts.cjb.net > > > > > From morrison at t-iii.com Tue Sep 14 12:26:46 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Archiving old discs... Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1EBEA@hobbit.t-iii.com> If the TRS-80 disks are DD you can usually read them OK, but SD needs some other computer (Model I, III, 4, Coco etc.) Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Arfon Gryffydd [SMTP:arfonrg@texas.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 8:21 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Archiving old discs... > > I picked up an AppleII CP/M card and software yesterday and causes me to > raise a question... > > I have a ton of old 5.25" discs from TRS-80's, Apples and etc. Can I use a > IBM Compatible and a disc image program (like scopy) to archive these > discs? If not, how can I archive these programs? > > Thanks > > A > ---------------------------------------- > Tired of Micro$oft??? > > Move up to a REAL OS... > ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # > #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## > ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### > ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### > ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### > # ###### > ("LINUX" for those of you > without fixed-width fonts) > ---------------------------------------- > Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com > > Slackware Mailing List: > http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Sep 14 14:16:51 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Adam Beetle (was: Why is the Coleco Adam so damn popular?) In-Reply-To: <02d801befed1$73e8a900$0f55fea9@cel-366> Message-ID: <199909141717.TAA23110@horus.mch.sni.de> > > I think it is human sympathy for an underdog. I'm told the reason people > >AT FIRST bought the VW Beetle was because it was so homely. (Don't shoot, I > >had one in 1956.) > If that is it, then it would be an interesting ploy for a marketing > department. Although, I took such a course at the local community college > once and we discussed the COORS beer underdog marketing campaign of the > early and mid 70's. Seems they successfully exploited the underdog thing > some felt. > Yes, everybody laughed at the Beetle, and bought one. I assume it is not only laughting about underdogs, but maybe about the laughter at all - for example, right now Mercedes is about to place a second successful car where everybody told them beforehand that this isn't possible. First they hit with the A-Class (Well, against the VW Golf it's still a 1 on 10 ratio), and now the Smart takes of - a car, where _everybody_ was just laughting, but looking at some 'up to date' locations, this small bug (*g*) is taking off... A car like the Beetle - you just can love or hate it, but no opinion inbetween Lets see Hans BTW: I'll love the Smart - just like a Motorbike with a roof :) -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From black at gco.apana.org.au Tue Sep 14 12:35:37 1999 From: black at gco.apana.org.au (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Why is the Coleco Adam so popular? References: Message-ID: <003d01befed7$985e8e70$e83786cb@primus.com.au> ----- Original Message ----- > It was the Adam! Seriously, though, I think it was particularly accessable > to people because it grew out of Coleco's popular (and just damn good) > video game system. It wasn't nearly as forbidding as a "real" computer > system. I myself had a Colecovision from the early 80's that I recently > hawked on eBay. Can you blame me? I got a hundred bucks for it with a few > games and the Atari module. Bizarre! You can pick 'em up here (in Oz) for a couple of bucks from recyclers, junk shops etc...... another reason I never buy on eBay..... still, good luck to you if you found someone willing to pay that price. // Lance Lyon black@gco.apana.org.au llyon@primus.com.au lance999@hotmail.com Ph: +61-3-6254-7376 // From mhco at mindspring.com Tue Sep 14 07:14:27 1999 From: mhco at mindspring.com (mhco@mindspring.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Homeworkers Needed! Message-ID: <405.764856.271945@ns.bigbear.net> Dear Future Associate, You Can Work At Home & Set Your Own Hours. Start earning Big Money in a short time NO Newspaper Advertising! Your job will be to stuff and mail envelopes for our company. You will receive $.25 for each and every envelope you stuff and mail out. 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Plus you will get your own special code number, so that we will know how much you are to get paid. And to make re-ordering of more envelopes, that our company supplies very simple for you. We are giving you this free bonus because we want you to be confident in our company and to ensure that we will be doing business with you for a long time. Benefits Of This Job: 1. You do not have to quit your present job, to earn more money at home 2. You can make between $2,500 to $4,500 a month depending on the amount of time you are willing to spend stuffing and mailing envelopes 3. This is a great opportunity for the students, mothers, disabled persons or those who are home bodies. To secure your position and to show us that you are serious about earning extra income at home we require a one-time registration fee of $35.00. This fee covers the cost of your initial start up package, which includes 100 envelopes, 100 labels and 100 sales letters and a manual, your registration fee will be refunded back to you shortly thereafter. Money Back Guarantee! We guarantee that as soon as you stuff and mail your first 300 envelopes You will be paid $75.00 and your registration fee will be refunded. Many of you wonder why it is necessary to pay a deposit to get a job. It is because we are looking for people that seriously want to work from home. * If 3.000 people told us they wanted to start working from home and we sent out 3.000 packages free to every one. And then half of the people decided not to work, this would be a potential loss of more than $60,000 in supply's and shipping that we have sent out to people that don't want to work We have instituted this policy to make sure that you really want to work and at least finish your first package. To Get Started Today Please Enclose Your Registration Fee of $35 Check,Cash Or Money Order and fill out the application below and mail to: MOHW Co 11054 Ventura Blvd PMB #126 Studio City, CA 91604 Name_____________________________________________________ Address___________________________________________________ City____________________________________ State______________ Zip Code________________ Telephone Number(s)_________________________________________ E-mail Address______________________________________________ For all orders, please allow seven (7) days for delivery and up to 10 days. Cash and Money Orders will result in faster shipping of your package. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Sep 14 12:55:20 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) Message-ID: <19990914175520.5493.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- morrison@t-iii.com wrote: > If the TRS-80 disks are DD you can usually read them OK, but SD needs some > other computer (Model I, III, 4, Coco etc.) Hmm... I've got an ancient ORIGINAL of Zork I (published by Personal Software) I've wanted to back this thing up for years so I can see which data file is on it, but I've never owned anything that can read it. Is it likely to be SD? What kind of non-period hardware can read this? If need be, I could even hook up a 5.25" disk to my Amiga and get funky with that. Thanks, -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From arfonrg at texas.net Tue Sep 14 13:24:15 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) In-Reply-To: <19990914175520.5493.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990914132415.00922210@207.207.0.212> Ethan, >Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. >Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com What is the meaning of your tag? I use Infinet and have heard of no sale or the domain being changed. ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Sep 14 13:26:41 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) Message-ID: <990914142641.20200658@trailing-edge.com> --- morrison@t-iii.com wrote: > If the TRS-80 disks are DD you can usually read them OK, but SD needs some > other computer (Model I, III, 4, Coco etc.) There has been extensive discussion on this topic on the comp.os.cpm newsgroup in the past several years. Here's some articles that detail which PC floppy disk controllers are capable of reading/writing single- density disks: Ken Ganshirt wrote in article <36899CB0.19AD9093@sk.sympatico.ca>... > > I must have a pretty decent floppy controller, because I can even read > my original SS/SD Os-1 floppies, even though 22Disk warns that it might > not work for that format. (For the technically curious, this is on a > Dell 486/50 running Win 95 and the floppy drive is one of those deals > that has both a 3.5 and 5.25 in a single half-height drive. It's the > only system I have left with a 5.25" floppy drive.) > Ken, I recently did a study to find out what will and what won't do single density. Here are my findings so far: Will support single density / FM: NS PC87306 Super I/O SMC FDC37C65 SMC FDC37C78 Most SMC Super I/O chips Will NOT support single density / FM: NS 8473 NS PC87332* Super I/O NS PC97307* Super I/O WD FDC37C65 Most (if not all) Intel parts Any Winbond part Any UMC part Reportedly will do single density / FM but NOT verified: NS 8477 Intel 82077AA Goldstar Super I/O The NS PC87306 is found in a lot of Dell and Compaq machines from the 486-50Mhz models to the Pentium-90 models. Most Super Micro Pentium motherboards using the PCI HX chipset also used that super I/O. *NOTE: It is important to verify the part number on the chip itself. Many of these newer NS parts will identify themselves to software as PC87306, but do NOT support single density. Best regards, Amardeep Amardeep S. Chana (asc1000@ibm.net) wrote: : Ken Ganshirt wrote in article : <36899CB0.19AD9093@sk.sympatico.ca>... : > : > I must have a pretty decent floppy controller, because I can even read : > my original SS/SD Os-1 floppies, even though 22Disk warns that it might : > not work for that format. (For the technically curious, this is on a : > Dell 486/50 running Win 95 and the floppy drive is one of those deals : > that has both a 3.5 and 5.25 in a single half-height drive. It's the : > only system I have left with a 5.25" floppy drive.) : > : Ken, : I recently did a study to find out what will and what won't do single : density. Here are my findings so far: Amardeep, I fear that I must question your study. I believe that you are ascribing to some of the chips the shortcomings of the FDC manufacturer. For example, both the NS 8473 and the WD 37C65 will most assuredly support FM. I have DTK FDC cards with the 8473 and read Osborne 1 disks with them just prior to writing this. Likewise, I have the WD 37C65 in the WD FOX card and it will also read/write FM. On that basis, I must have reservations about some of your other determinations. - don : Will support single density / FM: : NS PC87306 Super I/O : SMC FDC37C65 : SMC FDC37C78 : Most SMC Super I/O chips : Will NOT support single density / FM: : NS 8473 : NS PC87332* Super I/O : NS PC97307* Super I/O : WD FDC37C65 : Most (if not all) Intel parts : Any Winbond part : Any UMC part : Reportedly will do single density / FM but NOT verified: : NS 8477 : Intel 82077AA : Goldstar Super I/O : The NS PC87306 is found in a lot of Dell and Compaq machines from the : 486-50Mhz models to the Pentium-90 models. Most Super Micro Pentium : motherboards using the PCI HX chipset also used that super I/O. : *NOTE: It is important to verify the part number on the chip itself. Many : of these newer NS parts will identify themselves to software as PC87306, : but do NOT support single density. : Best regards, : Amardeep Don Maslin wrote in article <915064276.933215@optional.cts.com>... [snip] > > Amardeep, I fear that I must question your study. I believe that you > are ascribing to some of the chips the shortcomings of the FDC > manufacturer. For example, both the NS 8473 and the WD 37C65 will > most assuredly support FM. I have DTK FDC cards with the 8473 and > read Osborne 1 disks with them just prior to writing this. Likewise, > I have the WD 37C65 in the WD FOX card and it will also read/write > FM. On that basis, I must have reservations about some of your other > determinations. > - don > Hi Don, I understand your reservations and can address every issue. I did not go into enough detail in the first posting to fully support my assertions. > : Will support single density / FM: > > : NS PC87306 Super I/O > : SMC FDC37C65 > : SMC FDC37C78 > : Most SMC Super I/O chips > The above parts are completely stand alone with on board filters, write precomp generators, and data separators. They should work with FM in any board implementation, unless something specific is done to prevent it (not likely). This is per the National and SMSC (new name for SMC semiconductor) data sheets. I have tested the NS PC87306 and SMC FDC37C65 using Jeff Vavasour's Model 4 emulator and Tim Mann's xtrs 2.8 under Linux. They both read and write FM with no problems. > : Will NOT support single density / FM: > > : NS 8473 > : NS PC87332* Super I/O > : NS PC97307* Super I/O > : WD FDC37C65 > : Most (if not all) Intel parts > : Any Winbond part > : Any UMC part > The 1988 data sheet for the NS 8473 states on page 8-32, "While the controller and data separator support both FM and MFM encoding, the filter switch circuitry only supports the IBM standard MFM data rates. To provide both FM and MFM filters external logic may be necessary." Every 8473 board I have tried failed to write FM. However, it may be possible to read FM on some boards if the external filters have a wide enough Q. The NS PC87332 & NS PC97307 are standalone and by design do not support FM (verified on the National data sheets). The only information I have on the WD FDC37C65 is the Always IN2000 card I have with that chip cannot read or write FM. I suspect it is also dependent on implementation. I have new information on Intel... Intel 8272 is a NEC 765 clone and therefore dependent on implementation . Intel 82077AA and 82077SL - data sheet clearly states these parts suppo rt FM. Thanks to Pete Cervasio for testing and reporting that the 82077 does indeed read and write FM. Intel 82078 - data sheet clearly states these parts will NOT support FM . I haven't yet investigated the new Intel Super I/O chip which is replacing the 82078. The Winbond and UMC chips have never worked on any adapter or motherboard I've ever encountered them on. No idea if its the chip or the implementation. > : Reportedly will do single density / FM but NOT verified: > > : NS 8477 > : Intel 82077AA > : Goldstar Super I/O > The NS 8477 data sheet indicates that it does support FM (it is functionally and pin for pin compatible with the Intel 82077). The Goldstar Super I/O was reported to work with FM in a newsgroup posting I read once but have never been able to confirm it. Hope that clarifies things :) Amardeep From donm at cts.com Tue Sep 14 13:28:17 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Need ID for IBM Cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > Sounds like a magcard, probably from an old MagcardII typewriter or a > Displaywriter. > > On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Wayne Smith wrote: > > > I was just going through a box of old files (circa 1970) that my office > > is throwing out and I found four cards that I need an ID on. They are > > the same size and shape as a standard puch card, but appear to be made > > of some sort of magnetic media. They are approximately the color of > > standard magnetic cassette tape on one side, and nearly black on the > > other. Each card has "IBM" printed on it in white with a direction > > arrow next to it in one corner of the card directly opposite the notch. > > In the corner with the notch there are two groups of 3 digits, also in > > white. Merle's analysis agrees with some known Magcards that I have. The two groups of 3 digit numbers are apparently for card identification as they are not duplicated. - don > > The cards have what appear to be track marks on them in three parallel > > rows on the horizontal, as if fed through a reader. > > > > Thanks. If it would be useful I post a scan of one of these. > > > > > > M. K. Peirce > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > 215 Shady Lea Road, > North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > > donm@cts.com *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Don Maslin - Keeper of the Dina-SIG CP/M System Disk Archives Chairman, Dina-SIG of the San Diego Computer Society Clinging tenaciously to the trailing edge of technology. Sysop - Elephant's Graveyard (CP/M) Z-Node 9 - 858-454-8412 *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* see old system support at http://www.psyber.com/~tcj/ visit the "Unofficial" CP/M Web site at http://www.devili.iki.fi/cpm/ with Mirror at http://www.mathcs.emory.edu/~cfs/cpm/ From morrison at t-iii.com Tue Sep 14 13:44:21 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1ECE7@hobbit.t-iii.com> These were made for the Model I in SD. They are flippy disks, with the active part of the game (recorded with track order backwards as I recall) on one side. I know the Coco supports SD, but most IBM PC's don't AFAIK. Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks [SMTP:ethan_dicks@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 10:55 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) > > > > --- morrison@t-iii.com wrote: > > If the TRS-80 disks are DD you can usually read them OK, but SD needs > some > > other computer (Model I, III, 4, Coco etc.) > > Hmm... I've got an ancient ORIGINAL of Zork I (published by Personal > Software) > I've wanted to back this thing up for years so I can see which data file > is on > it, but I've never owned anything that can read it. Is it likely to be > SD? > What kind of non-period hardware can read this? If need be, I could even > hook up a 5.25" disk to my Amiga and get funky with that. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > > === > Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. > Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From arfonrg at texas.net Tue Sep 14 13:37:27 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Everyone, ignore my last post. Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990914133727.00924100@207.207.0.212> Everyone, Sorry about not checking the return address before sending on that last message. ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue Sep 14 14:01:36 1999 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: IBM magcard typewriter cards Message-ID: IBM magcard typewriter IBM MagCard II typewriter introduced by IBM in 1973. The cards that look like a magnetic version of an 026/029 punch card were from a IBM Selectric typewriter with a adjacent floor stand unit that could read/write the cards and print out what was stored on them. I think they were called IBM magcards. I saw them in use in 1974-1976. The floor unit was about 1 foot wide and 4 feet tall with a slot in the front of the unit. At one of my first jobs all of the standard canned pathology reports were stored on magcards. The pathologist would dictate reports by indicating a series of standard report text to use with any additional comments manually added at the end. The typist would feed in the correct cards as indicated. Great productivity and spelling accuracy tool. Later I saw one in the EE department at the University of Missouri-Columbia. Some of the typists could type faster that the machine under magcard control. Occasionally the engineering secretary could be seen sitting in front of the typewriter as it ran without any of her fingers touching the keys. It was great for stored forms and for editing and retyping grant applications. They had little sleeves for them where they indicated the topic or subject stored on the card. mike mcfadden Computer=computing device that can run for a year without crashing. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 14 13:58:45 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Expiration dates for computers? (was Re: Unopened classic...) In-Reply-To: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1EBD3@hobbit.t-iii.com> (morrison@t-iii.com) References: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1EBD3@hobbit.t-iii.com> Message-ID: <19990914185845.4753.qmail@brouhaha.com> morrison@t-iii.com wrote: > IMHO, the best possible use for a Mod II/12 and esp. for the external floppy > drive box, would be to make computer thieves have to carry it repeatedly up > and down the stairs of a multi story building! Then maybe they'd keep their > hands off other peoples property. (Some idiot actually STOLE one of these, > way past it's useful date!!!) Hmmm... I just bought a couple of Model IIs from someone a few months ago. I hadn't realized that they were past the "best used by" date, since I didn't see one stamped on it anywhere. :-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 14 12:54:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: 5 1/4 floppies on laptop In-Reply-To: <132f956c.250f19b0@aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Sep 13, 99 11:23:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 305 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990914/6112742a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 14 13:03:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: HP IC numbers was:Re: Britain is Great (Back from the Island) In-Reply-To: <000901befebc$73797900$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Sep 14, 99 08:21:34 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1450 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990914/8c359779/attachment.ksh From morrison at t-iii.com Tue Sep 14 14:45:35 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Expiration dates for computers? (was Re: Unopened classic... ) Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1ED7C@hobbit.t-iii.com> Best Used By : After almost everyone had discarded them, Rad Shack dumped all software, and the repair techs shook their heads when they saw one come into the repair depot. Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Smith [SMTP:eric@brouhaha.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 11:59 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Expiration dates for computers? (was Re: Unopened > classic...) > > morrison@t-iii.com wrote: > > IMHO, the best possible use for a Mod II/12 and esp. for the external > floppy > > drive box, would be to make computer thieves have to carry it repeatedly > up > > and down the stairs of a multi story building! Then maybe they'd keep > their > > hands off other peoples property. (Some idiot actually STOLE one of > these, > > way past it's useful date!!!) > > Hmmm... I just bought a couple of Model IIs from someone a few months > ago. > I hadn't realized that they were past the "best used by" date, since I > didn't see one stamped on it anywhere. :-) From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Sep 14 14:48:43 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) In-Reply-To: <990914142641.20200658@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Will support single density / FM: > > NS PC87306 Super I/O > SMC FDC37C65 > SMC FDC37C78 > Most SMC Super I/O chips > > Will NOT support single density / FM: > > NS 8473 > NS PC87332* Super I/O > NS PC97307* Super I/O > WD FDC37C65 > Most (if not all) Intel parts > Any Winbond part > Any UMC part Totally incorrect, all support SD *IF* software and external data seperators/clocks are correct. > Reportedly will do single density / FM but NOT verified: > > NS 8477 > Intel 82077AA > Goldstar Super I/O At this point he must be referring to PC FDC CARDS where life is more or less dictated by design hacks and sometimes bios omissions, I can say the 37c65 (all vendors) and all versions of the 765(I8272) all do single density quite well. Most PC bus cards do not do ningle density (any/all) of those more often than not do not do SD FM due to board level implmentation limitations. The most common is the data seperator is hardwired for (especially true for any board with 765/8272 on it) one maybe two data rates. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Sep 14 14:58:23 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: FYI: trs80s used WD 1771 (mod-1) and later ones used the 1793. The 1771 is SD only and the 1793 does both. There were 1793 adaptors for the MOD-1. Allison From wsmith at gj.com Tue Sep 14 15:03:01 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: HELP! Kaypro 2X Drive (Was: HELP! Osbourne drives) Message-ID: >>> Don Maslin 09/13 9:06 PM >>> On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Wayne Smith wrote: > This made me remember that I have a perhaps similar problem with one > of my Kaypro drives. It works at first, but eventually wears away > portions of the disk making the disk unusable. (After a few uses, if > you hold the disk up to the light there are arcs that are clear.) I > assume this is a head alignment issue. If so, is there an easy way to > realign the heads (perhaps dropping the unit a la Apple III), or should > I just look for another floppy drive? I would be more inclined to suspect magnetic media build up on the heads that needs to be cleaned off. - don ***Any suggestions on cleaning methods? Wayne ! ! ! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 14 15:01:53 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > Will support single density / FM: > > . . . > > Will NOT support single density / FM: > > . . . > Totally incorrect, all support SD *IF* software and external data > seperators/clocks are correct. > . . . As Allison pointed out, with the 765 and copies, it becomes an issue of the board design and implementation, because there was some trivial additional circuitry required for FM. But with the 37C65 series, there seemed to be little or no extra circuitry required for FM. Is that correct? A question for Allison: Which, if any, of the chips will do FM regardless of the board design and implementation? Or is it ALWAYS an issue of board rather than chip? From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Sep 14 15:05:53 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) Message-ID: <990914160553.202006be@trailing-edge.com> >> Will support single density / FM: >> >> NS PC87306 Super I/O >> SMC FDC37C65 >> SMC FDC37C78 >> Most SMC Super I/O chips >> >> Will NOT support single density / FM: >> >> NS 8473 >> NS PC87332* Super I/O >> NS PC97307* Super I/O >> WD FDC37C65 >> Most (if not all) Intel parts >> Any Winbond part >> Any UMC part >Totally incorrect, all support SD *IF* software and external data >seperators/clocks are correct. He's specifically talking about "everything on one" FDC's, where there is no external data separator/clock - it's all on the one chip. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From DD950 at prodigy.net Tue Sep 14 15:08:13 1999 From: DD950 at prodigy.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Why is the Coleco Adam so popular? Message-ID: <005d01befeec$e1283c40$0f55fea9@cel-366> -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney >This is interesting: call the 800 number from the sticker on the bottom of >a Colecovision/Adam. It's now a company called "Adam's House" who are more >than happy to mail you out a catalog You don't have to call!!! they are now on the Web at http://www.flash.net/~coleco/start.htm . Scary, as you could not even access the graphic web with one. You can be glad you waited as a Coleco Adam can now be had it appears for about $59.95!! These appear to be for still new equipment. Reading the FAQ it appears Adam House bought out the inventory in 1985 from the Coleco bankruptcy? Aaron, How old are you or that VW van anyway? I have a 1977. Up for a road trip? Regards, Jim Rossbach, Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club Web Ring, www.TonkinYachts.cjb.net What If The Hokey Pokey Is Really What It's All About? From morrison at t-iii.com Tue Sep 14 15:20:24 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1EDCF@hobbit.t-iii.com> The real problem was that the DD controller could only write two types of data marks, whereas the SD one could write four. Randy Cook chose the two the DD controller couldn't write for the Mod I SD O/S. Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: allisonp@world.std.com [SMTP:allisonp@world.std.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 12:58 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) > > > FYI: trs80s used WD 1771 (mod-1) and later ones used the 1793. The 1771 > is SD only and the 1793 does both. There were 1793 adaptors for the > MOD-1. > > > Allison From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Sep 14 15:25:25 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: HP IC numbers was:Re: Britain is Great (Back from the Island) Message-ID: <19990914.153917.263.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:03:30 +0100 (BST) ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Other manufacturers had similar number schemes. IBM have used > standard chips (TTL, etc) with just IBM part numbers on them. ICL had a 2 or > 3 character code on some of their standard TTL (etc) chips -- I > started compiling a list of those as well as they turn up in UK PERQs. > > The one I would love to get an equivalents list for is Xerox. Xerox > D-machines have what are obviously TTL chips with only house numbers > on them. I have never seen any equivalents list or dual-marked ICs, > though, which makes fixing these machines a little harder. Stuff made by Motorola's COMM group was the same way. WHen I left that organization in 1986, I took with me a table cross-referencing commonly used chips with their Motorola Part Numbers. Very useful, if you deal with alot with their old (read: mid-80's) radios, consoles, and computer-ish things. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From jritorto at nut.net Tue Sep 14 15:57:48 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: VW (was Re: Why is the Coleco Adam so popular? In-Reply-To: <005d01befeec$e1283c40$0f55fea9@cel-366> Message-ID: Road Trip in a Microbus? I'm game. I took my '63 to Spokane from Pittsburgh a few years ago. Only used two engines. I've been meaning to weld a pdp11/23 into the area where the refrigerator is supposed to go, but haven't got a round tuit yet. It'd be neat to have a classic computer survellence bus. jake On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Jim wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron Christopher Finney > > >This is interesting: call the 800 number from the sticker on the bottom of > >a Colecovision/Adam. It's now a company called "Adam's House" who are more > >than happy to mail you out a catalog > > You don't have to call!!! they are now on the Web at > http://www.flash.net/~coleco/start.htm . > > Scary, as you could not even access the graphic web with one. > > You can be glad you waited as a Coleco Adam can now be had it appears for > about $59.95!! > > These appear to be for still new equipment. Reading the FAQ it appears Adam > House bought out the inventory in 1985 from the Coleco bankruptcy? > > Aaron, How old are you or that VW van anyway? I have a 1977. Up for a road > trip? > > Regards, > > > Jim Rossbach, Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club Web Ring, www.TonkinYachts.cjb.net > > What If The Hokey Pokey Is Really What It's All About? > > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Sep 14 16:05:17 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > seemed to be little or no extra circuitry required for FM. Is that > correct? SMC926x, 37c65 and later all support fm and MFM regardless of board design ans the general design uses that... HOWEVER... if you use a 37c65 let's say with a 8mhz crystal instead of the expected 16mhz you may not be able to do the higher data rates for example. Also if you do not supply the 9.6mhz clock then 1.2mb can be done. > A question for Allison: > Which, if any, of the chips will do FM regardless of the board design and > implementation? Or is it ALWAYS an issue of board rather than chip? 1771 though it's poor and the clock must be correct for the size drive. It's poor as it's internal data seperator is junk. The external data sep will be board specific. 37c65 and 37c66x are all fully contained but you MUST supply the correct clocks and program them correctly. There are plenty of others in that group. Some of the WD17xx parts will also but again there are some design considerations for them like the 1770 will not do the rates required for 8" drives (slow mos). I have a 765 design that does all rates and formats using the 9229 clock data sep chip or also a gate array part designed for the task. Allison From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Sep 14 16:02:58 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) Message-ID: <19990914210258.5018.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > I can say the 37c65 (all vendors) and all versions of the 765(I8272) all > do single density quite well. Most PC bus cards do not do ningle > density (any/all) of those more often than not do not do SD FM due to > board level implmentation limitations. The most common is the data > seperator is hardwired for (especially true for any board with 765/8272 > on it) one maybe two data rates. So, bottom line, if I find a floppy card that appears to conform to one of the favorable ones on that list from comp.os.cpm, stick it in a PC and use something like 22DISK, I should be able to make a physical backup of a TRS-80 disk? Is there some other piece of software I should use? Unless Teledisk will produce an uncompressed image, it won't help me. I can process the disk images once I get them onto the hard drive, that's the easy part. -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Sep 14 16:07:50 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) In-Reply-To: <990914160553.202006be@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: some snippage//// > He's specifically talking about "everything on one" FDC's, where there > is no external data separator/clock - it's all on the one chip. And he's still wrong. NOTE I said IF the data seperators (or if megga part) clocks are correct. There are some nasty hacks out there. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Sep 14 16:09:20 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) In-Reply-To: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1EDCF@hobbit.t-iii.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 morrison@t-iii.com wrote: > The real problem was that the DD controller could only write two types of > data marks, whereas the SD one could write four. > Randy Cook chose the two the DD controller couldn't write for the Mod I SD > O/S. That was only part of it though an important one. Still you can't read DD with a SD chip. And it was the SD chip 1771 that could write all sorts of bizzare formats. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 14 14:45:29 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) In-Reply-To: <19990914175520.5493.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 14, 99 10:55:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 873 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990914/440e1bf5/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Tue Sep 14 16:39:32 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Homeworkers Needed! In-Reply-To: <405.764856.271945@ns.bigbear.net> Message-ID: <199909142139.OAA29415@civic.hal.com> mhco@mindspring.com wrote: > > MOHW Co > 11054 Ventura Blvd PMB #126 > Studio City, CA 91604 > Name_____________________________________________________ If anyone from this list sends anything other than a complaint to these people, they should be keel hauled. Never, ever, no matter how great it sounds, reply favorably to a spammer. IMHO Dwight From morrison at t-iii.com Tue Sep 14 16:53:11 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1EED9@hobbit.t-iii.com> I did figure out the format, but I've long since forgotten it. But most any SU type program could read it. Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [SMTP:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 12:45 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) > > > Hmm... I've got an ancient ORIGINAL of Zork I (published by Personal > Software) > > I've wanted to back this thing up for years so I can see which data file > is on > > it, but I've never owned anything that can read it. Is it likely to be > SD? > > What kind of non-period hardware can read this? If need be, I could > even > > hook up a 5.25" disk to my Amiga and get funky with that. > > > There was a TRS-80 model 1 Zork that meets this description -- I bought > it years ago. It was a single-density disk (The model 1 used a 1771 > controller that could only do single desnity), and it was formatted > strangely 'copy protect' it. It was also a self-booting disk with no > filesystem as such -- the Zork program just read the text (encrypted > IIRC) from raw sectors on the disk. > > Superutility on a TRS-80 could probably read/back up that disk, but I > don't know what else can. > > -tony From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Sep 14 17:54:53 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: GOOD hamfest! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990913170443.3a970d8a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990914175453.496f7ccc@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:51 PM 9/13/99 -0700, you wrote: >> Yes, the HP-IB version of the ThinkJet does the same thing. I haven't > >Is this something worth picking up if I see one in a junk yard? Since I collect HP stuff and use the HP-IB bus I'd say yes but I guess it depends on if you have a use for it. I don't have a shortage of them :-) I grab most of them that I find and keep them around to use or for parts. The 1LB3 ICs are impossible to find except by pulling them out of other items so I always grab the HP-IB and IL printers. The biggest failure in all the ThinkJets is the contacts on the flex cable that connect to the printhead. They have little tits that are supposed to press against the contacts on the printhead but corrosion and wiping hard will tear the tits off and then you get blank lines in the print. DON'T wipe the contacts, just blot them to clean them. The print cartridges are prone to leaking, you shouls always remove them if you're not using the printer and ALLWAYS remove them before shipping the printer. Altitude and air pressure changes will pump the ink out of the cartridge. You can self test the printers by holding down the FF key and turning the printer on. Wait a few seconds and release the FF key. Joe > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Sep 14 18:07:01 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: HP IC numbers was:Re: Britain is Great (Back from the Island) In-Reply-To: References: <000901befebc$73797900$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990914180701.3b5764bc@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 07:03 PM 9/14/99 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Those 1820-xxxx numbers remind me of lots of HP boards I've looked at over >> the years. > >Yes, HP assigned an 1820-number to just about every (logic) chip that >they used. They had similar numbering schemes for resistor networks, >transistors, etc. > >This seems to have been done to simplify the parts inventory at HP rather >than to make it difficult to replace chips. There is no great secrecy on >the 1820-numbers -- service manuals give the standard equivalents in the >parts list, I'm glad Tony mentioned this. Walter at Sphere has been collecting HP parts lists that have part number cross references and posting all numbers on his website. I've been sending him copies of the part lists with cross references that I have so he can add them to the list. If anyone out these has any HP part lists or other cross references you should send them to him to be added. This cross reference is very usefull and I hope everyone will help out with it. "http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/" Joe From morrison at t-iii.com Tue Sep 14 16:54:58 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Homeworkers Needed! Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1EEDE@hobbit.t-iii.com> I forwarded this to abuse, postmaster etc at their ISP. Received back:- Hello, You are receiving this message in follow-up to a report received by the MindSpring AUP Abuse Department. You may have submitted this report to a number of addresses including but not limited to abuse@netcom.com, abuse@mindspring.com, or abuse@sprynet.com. Our ticketing system would seem to indicate your report regards an issue for which we have already received a number of similar reports. Unfortunately, due in part to high volumes of reports that a single incident can generate, we are unable to respond personally to all reports. If this was a complaint about a particular junk e-mail, we appear to have received as many complaints as was necessary to take appropriate action and do not require any further reports to document this incident. ............. clipped Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Dwight Elvey [SMTP:elvey@hal.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 1999 2:40 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Homeworkers Needed! > > mhco@mindspring.com wrote: > > > > MOHW Co > > 11054 Ventura Blvd PMB #126 > > Studio City, CA 91604 > > Name_____________________________________________________ > > > If anyone from this list sends anything other > than a complaint to these people, they should be > keel hauled. Never, ever, no matter how great it > sounds, reply favorably to a spammer. > IMHO > Dwight From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Sep 14 16:57:01 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) Message-ID: <990914175701.202006d4@trailing-edge.com> >So, bottom line, if I find a floppy card that appears to conform to one of >the favorable ones on that list from comp.os.cpm, stick it in a PC and use >something like 22DISK, I should be able to make a physical backup of a TRS-80 >disk? Is there some other piece of software I should use? Unless Teledisk >will produce an uncompressed image, it won't help me. I can process the disk >images once I get them onto the hard drive, that's the easy part. The compression used inside Teledisk is very simplistic run-length-encoding. I once had a few hundred teledisk images to turn back into "regular" images, and banged out a quick little program to do the conversion in half an hour or so. If anyone's really interested, I'll forward a copy of the source. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Tue Sep 14 17:14:56 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: VW (was Re: Why is the Coleco Adam so popular? Message-ID: <19990914221456.22286.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> --- Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Road Trip in a Microbus? I'm game. I took my '63 to Spokane from > Pittsburgh a few years ago. Only used two engines. Ack! My beloved '76 is down; the (first) engine is in the basement undergoing a complete top-job (new heads, pistons, cylinders) after 2 owners and 125K miles > I've been meaning to > weld a pdp11/23 into the area where the refrigerator is supposed to go, > but haven't got a round tuit yet. It'd be neat to have a classic computer > survellence bus. I saved the A/C plastic enclosure that used to sit behind the heads in the fronts seats to put a computer up there someday. At the time, I was thinking about a C-64 due to low power requirements. If you powered the PDP-11 from some source other than the alternator, you might have a chance; I wouldn't want to put that kind of a load on the factory electrical system. What would you use for disk? Now... an 11/23 in a BA-23 w/ 1/2-height MFM, or better yet, 3.5" SCSI, might be doable. My 11/23's tend to have RL02's on them; not exactly road worthy. -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 14 16:39:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Sep 14, 99 03:48:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 916 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990914/d2e8f6f2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 14 16:41:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Sep 14, 99 03:58:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 519 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990914/3b3fa5e1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 14 16:43:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: HELP! Kaypro 2X Drive (Was: HELP! Osbourne drives) In-Reply-To: from "Wayne Smith" at Sep 14, 99 01:03:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 507 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990914/0cdf03ae/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Sep 14 18:36:25 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Intel Stuff from the early '80's In-Reply-To: <004801befec1$5fa143e0$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990914183625.4f0ffe4e@mailhost.intellistar.net> Dick, I tried to reply directly to you but your server rejected my messages. > > I'm interested in the Intel stuff. ISIS was the operating system for >the big blue and while Intel MDS systems. I still have one. I'd be very >interested in seeing what you have but I have to tell you that I'm NOT fond >of MBE. They charge ridiculous rates for boxs and supplies and for packing >and even their shipping is twice the UPS rate. They charge three times as much for boxs here localy as U-Haul does. I'd much rather you dumped >the stuff in a box and sent it via USPS book rate if possible. > > Joe At 08:56 AM 9/14/99 -0600, you wrote: >Back in the heyday of 8-bit micros I got involved with a couple of clients who thought the Intel 16-bit processors were pretty cool. Ultimately I was left with a bunch of software documentation and some software (copied, I suppose). Some of the software and documentation actually go together, so I though I'd make an initial offer to this group in case there's someone crazy enough to pursue this sort of stuff. I have lots ( close to 25 kg ) of manuals in the original blue Intel binders containing documents on various Intel development tools of the early 8086 era, including, I believe, Pascal, Assembler, various OS's (they were experimenting with several at the time) PL/M, among others. There's also a batch, obviously intended to go together, of 8" diskettes marked iAPX Source Code which has in it diskettes marked "CP/M to ISIS Translator" in CP/M SSSD format, RTCS UDI, PL/M-80, and LOTS of other iRMX stuff all in ISIS format (whatever that is) seemingly the source code for an entire development OS. > >Is anybody interested enough to want this stuff shipped to them at THEIR expense? That means I carry the stuff to the Mailboxes, Etc shop, get a quote on the packing and shipping cost, carry it back and, when your check clears, have it shipped to you. > >Dick > > >Dick > > >Attachment Converted: "C:\ATTACH\IntelStu.htm" > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 14 17:07:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) In-Reply-To: <990914175701.202006d4@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Sep 14, 99 05:57:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 515 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990914/a30b95f5/attachment.ksh From a2k at one.net Tue Sep 14 17:47:20 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: TSR 80 In-Reply-To: <37DE61D8.423BB9B5@fcc.net> Message-ID: Which model? Kevin On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, John C. Mitchell wrote: > I have a TSR 80 that is tape driven not disk driven. I also have a > number of games for it. Is this worth anything. > > John C. Mitchell > > From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 14 17:40:39 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:19 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) In-Reply-To: (ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <19990914224039.6337.qmail@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > There was a TRS-80 model 1 Zork that meets this description -- I bought > it years ago. It was a single-density disk (The model 1 used a 1771 > controller that could only do single desnity), and it was formatted > strangely 'copy protect' it. It was also a self-booting disk with no > filesystem as such -- the Zork program just read the text (encrypted > IIRC) from raw sectors on the disk. Compressed, rather then encrypted, although I'm sure the resulting obfuscation was considered a benefit by the designers. And it wasn't just strings that were read from the disk; the actual game was written in Z-code, the instruction set for a virtual machine. The only Z-80 code was the Z-code interpreter, which implemented a virtual memory system in order to make Zork playable on a 32K machine. The general principles were described in the article "How to Fit a Large Program Into a Small Machine, or How to Fit the Great Underground Empire on Your Desk-top", by Mark Blank and Stu Galley, published in Creative Computing in July 1980. The article may be found at http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pete/Infocom/Articles/small.html From DD950 at prodigy.net Tue Sep 14 18:38:30 1999 From: DD950 at prodigy.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Homeworkers Needed! Try www.spamcop.net Message-ID: <001c01beff0a$41d53440$0f55fea9@cel-366> -----Original Message----- From: morrison@t-iii.com >I forwarded this to abuse, postmaster etc at their ISP. Received back:- > > I forwarded that spam also. I am glad there are others that take the time to complain. Now the only problem is the spammer most probably was not really using, or planned to use again that email account. But you never know so it is worth reporting it anyway. I have been cutting and pasting all my spam into the free parser at www.spamcop.net . You can use the system for free and it will address and send a nice complaint letter for you to the proper people. If you join up I understand you can use the filter that will block all the spam that is being reported. I don't do that so I can't tell you how effective that is. However, the amount of spam I am receiving has dropped almost to zero since I have been using www.spamcop.net to send the complaints! Maybe, just maybe the spammers do keep a list of us whiner and complainers and try not to send us spam. I encourage everybody to visit www.spamcop.net and use the system to file complaints. If nothing else it makes you feel good doing something. Regards, Jim Rossbach, Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club Web Ring, www.TonkinYachts.cjb.net Who were the beta testers for Preparations A through G? From donm at cts.com Tue Sep 14 18:50:51 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) In-Reply-To: <19990914210258.5018.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > I can say the 37c65 (all vendors) and all versions of the 765(I8272) all > > do single density quite well. Most PC bus cards do not do ningle > > density (any/all) of those more often than not do not do SD FM due to > > board level implmentation limitations. The most common is the data > > seperator is hardwired for (especially true for any board with 765/8272 > > on it) one maybe two data rates. > > So, bottom line, if I find a floppy card that appears to conform to one of > the favorable ones on that list from comp.os.cpm, stick it in a PC and use > something like 22DISK, I should be able to make a physical backup of a TRS-80 > disk? Is there some other piece of software I should use? Unless Teledisk > will produce an uncompressed image, it won't help me. I can process the disk > images once I get them onto the hard drive, that's the easy part. TeleDisk is capable of producing either a compressed or noncompressed image, however, in each case there is a certain amount of 'header' data prior to the actual image. AnaDisk, on the other hand, will produce a straight, uncompressed image without any adds or alteration. You can also select the specific contiguous set of tracks that you want to save to file. - don From donm at cts.com Tue Sep 14 19:01:59 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: HELP! Kaypro 2X Drive (Was: HELP! Osbourne drives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Wayne Smith wrote: > > > >>> Don Maslin 09/13 9:06 PM >>> > On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Wayne Smith wrote: > > > This made me remember that I have a perhaps similar problem with one > > of my Kaypro drives. It works at first, but eventually wears away > > portions of the disk making the disk unusable. (After a few uses, if > > you hold the disk up to the light there are arcs that are clear.) I > > assume this is a head alignment issue. If so, is there an easy way to > > realign the heads (perhaps dropping the unit a la Apple III), or should > > I just look for another floppy drive? > > I would be more inclined to suspect magnetic media build up on the heads > that needs to be cleaned off. > > - don > > ***Any suggestions on cleaning methods? > Wayne, I could not improve on the description that Tony provided in an earlier message. - don From morrison at t-iii.com Tue Sep 14 19:02:14 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Homeworkers Needed! Try www.spamcop.net Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1EFF8@hobbit.t-iii.com> "However, the amount of spam I am receiving has dropped almost to zero since I have been using www.spamcop.net to send the complaints!" ---> And if you keep off usa.net it will stay low. Talk about the Land O' Spam!!! Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Sep 14 19:08:42 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Homeworkers Needed! In-Reply-To: <199909142139.OAA29415@civic.hal.com> References: <405.764856.271945@ns.bigbear.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990914200310.00922ad0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 02:39 PM 9/14/99 -0700, Dwight Elvey said something like: >mhco@mindspring.com wrote: >> >> MOHW Co >> 11054 Ventura Blvd PMB #126 >> Studio City, CA 91604 >> Name_____________________________________________________ > > >If anyone from this list sends anything other >than a complaint to these people, they should be >keel hauled. Never, ever, no matter how great it >sounds, reply favorably to a spammer. Even an unfavorable reply should not be sent to a spammer. It simply shows him yours is a "live" address which he can reuse/resell. Just send a brief but kindly worded complaint only to his ISP's .abuse address. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Sep 14 19:08:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) Message-ID: <199909150008.UAA22591@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Sep 14, 99 08:08:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2407 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990915/bc67dd7b/attachment.ksh From philclayton at mindspring.com Tue Sep 14 20:30:28 1999 From: philclayton at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: COBAL for TRS-80 References: <199909090213.WAA18127@world.std.com> Message-ID: <37DEF6B4.2CBFD6B9@mindspring.com> If anyone needs COBAL for TRS-80 Model-1 or Model-3 computers, I have listed it on eBay its currently at only $1.25 plus shipping.. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=163084785 Phil.. From Glenatacme at aol.com Tue Sep 14 20:49:08 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Why is the Coleco Adam so damn popular? Message-ID: <8f5ae11.25105514@aol.com> Jim wrote: In a message dated 09/14/1999 6:21:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, DD950@prodigy.net writes: > I have to admit i bought one of the Coleco Adam computers in the summer of > 1984 (The Adam bomb). I soon found that it really didn't work and like most > I returned it to Toy-R-Us for a refund. I'm not familiar with the Adam. When you say it "really didn't work," do you mean: 1) it was poorly designed 2) it was poorly manufactured 3) it was a PITA to use or program ?? "Really didn't work" sounds as if _nothing_ useful could be done with the machine, no matter the skills and/or perseverance of the user. More plainly stated: are these things _totally_ _crap_ ??? I like collecting the smaller machines, but don't wish to waste my time if the Adam "really doesn't work." TIA, Glen Goodwin 0/0 From at258 at osfn.org Tue Sep 14 21:03:37 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Need ID for IBM Cards [+ Picture] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If I can find the MagCard manual, I'll see if I can find the capacity. I don't know if it mirrored the punch card or not, although I think it held more data. They were supposed to be terrors to run. On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Wayne Smith wrote: > I think you're right. You are the second person to ID the cards as from an early memory typewriter. I should have mentioned in my earlier post that each of the cards was paperclipped to a carbon copy of a document. Based on the length of the documents, these cards didn't hold much. > > I have posted a scan of a couple of these cards at http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/_uimages/IBMCards.jpg to the extent that it helps in further IDing them. > > Thanks. > > >>>> "Merle K. Peirce" 09/14 2:16 AM >>> > >Sounds like a magcard, probably from an old MagcardII typewriter or a > >Displaywriter. > > > >On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Wayne Smith wrote: > > > >> I was just going through a box of old files (circa 1970) that my office is throwing out and I found four cards that I need an ID on. >>They are the same size and shape as a standard puch card, but appear to be made of some sort of magnetic media. They are >>approximately the color of standard magnetic cassette tape on one side, and nearly black on the other. Each card has "IBM" >>printed on it in white with a direction arrow next to it in one corner of the card directly opposite the notch. In the corner with the >>notch there are two groups of 3 digits, also in white. > >> > >> The cards have what appear to be track marks on them in three parallel rows on the horizontal, as if fed through a reader. > >> > >> Thanks. If it would be useful I post a scan of one of these. > >> > > > >M. K. Peirce > >Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > >215 Shady Lea Road, > >North Kingstown, RI 02852 > > > >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > ! ! ! ! > ! > ! > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Sep 14 21:23:23 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Why is the Coleco Adam so xxxx popular? Message-ID: In a message dated 9/14/99 9:50:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Glenatacme@aol.com writes: > Jim wrote: > > In a message dated 09/14/1999 6:21:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > DD950@prodigy.net writes: > > > I have to admit i bought one of the Coleco Adam computers in the summer of > > > 1984 (The Adam bomb). I soon found that it really didn't work and like > most > > I returned it to Toy-R-Us for a refund. > > I'm not familiar with the Adam. When you say it "really didn't work," do > you > mean: > > 1) it was poorly designed > 2) it was poorly manufactured > 3) it was a PITA to use or program > > ?? > > "Really didn't work" sounds as if _nothing_ useful could be done with the > machine, no matter the skills and/or perseverance of the user. > > More plainly stated: are these things _totally_ _crap_ ??? I like > collecting the smaller machines, but don't wish to waste my time if the Adam > > "really doesn't work." > > TIA, well, supposedly there were various applications for it, so you could process words or do the ubiquitous home budgeting. it had a built-in printer which was handy and the built-in basic was very similar to applesoft. only thing you had to remember is not to leave a data tape in the drive when turning it on or the tape's info will be destroyed. -->this message printed on recycled disk space. visit the computers of yesteryear at: http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Sep 14 21:16:44 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Need ID for IBM Cards [+ Picture] Message-ID: <19990914.211645.255.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:03:37 -0400 (EDT) "Merle K. Peirce" writes: > >If I can find the MagCard manual, I'll see if I can find the capacity. > I don't know if it mirrored the punch card or not, although I think it >held more data. They were supposed to be terrors to run. Not to mention repair! One of my first jobs in the electronics industry was field service of the Redactron Redactor (tm) word processing system. This was, for all intensive purposes, an IBM MAG Card System *clone* made by the Redactron Corporation, of Yaphank, NY. It used an *IBM* selectric typewriter mechanism, a box the size of a bar fridge filled with electronics, and used either MAG Cards or special cassette tapes. ALot of our customers started with MAG cards, then upgraded to tapes (which held alot more). Some customers had machines with *both*. LAter, the Selectric (tm) mechanism was replaced with a printer/ keyboard unit called a Q-Pak. Redactron was subsequently purchased by Burroughs. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Sep 14 21:40:09 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) Message-ID: <199909150240.WAA04014@world.std.com> -----Original Message----- From: Glenatacme@aol.com >I'm not familiar with the Adam. When you say it "really didn't work," do you >mean: > >1) it was poorly designed >2) it was poorly manufactured >3) it was a PITA to use or program > The easy answer would be all three, but it was a decent 1983-4 design, the printer quality control left a lot to be desired, but it was a daisy wheel printer for a very cheap price back then. (note: the Adam came with the printer, basic, and a word processor for $800 in 1984, the KayPro 2X with a Juki 6100 Daisy wheel printer I replaced the Adam with costs $1750.) I found you would not want to trust the printer to print out your work on deadline. It might take you a long time to get the formatting correct. It was definetily a PITA to use and program, and program you did. At least you typed in basic programs form listings in books and magazines. My first and last project was to type in a basic progam to make a mailing list for my customers. I never could get it to work and finally found the authors telephone number and called him. He immediately admitted the program didn't work as Coleco had shipped a different version of basic than the one they had given him to work with. He also confirmed that the printer was "very difficult" to get to print correctly. He also admitted that he was without a current Adam as he himself had returned two machines for refunds. I think later the basic was improved and the printer was improved. > >"Really didn't work" sounds as if _nothing_ useful could be done with the >machine, no matter the skills and/or perseverance of the user. I think as time went on, there were some useful filing, spreadsheet, and better word pocessing progams for the Adam. They could not have been any worse anyway :-) There was a lot of talk of CP/M for the Adam while I had one, I don't know if that ever happened. > >More plainly stated: are these things _totally_ _crap_ ??? I like >collecting the smaller machines, but don't wish to waste my time if the Adam >"really doesn't work." > > No, not total loss, but darn close IMHO. As I remember, I could always type something into the Adam, and then play hell trying to get the thing to give it back to me out of the printerr in some kind of recognizable form. With all the activity yet, they are not rare I guess. Perhaps the Adam bomb has earned it's place in any well stocked collection. There appears to be plenty of information on the Web surprisingly, to get you started visit: http://www.flash.net/~coleco/start.htm Good luck, Jim Rossbach, Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club, www.TonkinYachts.cjb.net You've heard it said that the early bird gets the worm? Well the second mouse gets the cheese ! (W. Rian Adams) From at258 at osfn.org Tue Sep 14 22:07:16 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Need ID for IBM Cards [+ Picture] In-Reply-To: <19990914.211645.255.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: EPA apaprently had a lot of those monsters. I had people tell me they would rather type an entire document over rather than try to correct anything on the magcards. We have a Magcard II, and a Savin system that used tapes. Seems like the tape would be easier to use. M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Tue Sep 14 22:09:16 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: 12 In-Reply-To: <000c01beff25$70420400$0f55fea9@cel-366> Message-ID: Our latest acquisition is a PDP-9, one of 455 built. It served until this summer controlling a very large 60"x60" XY plotter. This is one of only 2 of this size in the world, and is used to prepare glass plates for etching. The plotter moves in increments of 1/10000 of an inch. The plotter was built in the late 1960's by Concord Electronics in California. The plotter is built on a granite slab about 3 feet thick, which rests on supports which were drilled down to bedrock. In order to be installed, the rear wall of the building was removed. The Concord controls fill 3 cabinets, and these are controlled in turn by the PDP-9. Two PDP-11's are used to control and programme the PDP-9. This summer a more modern control system the size of a filing cabinet replaced the 3 six-foot control racks, and a Dell server and UPS replaced the DEC's. We were give the PDP-9, PDP-11's, and Concord control parts, as well as spare flip chips, terminals, paper tapes, manuals, etc. From hansp at digiweb.com Tue Sep 14 23:01:03 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: 12 References: Message-ID: <37DF19FF.33CEAE01@digiweb.com> Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > Our latest acquisition is a PDP-9, one of 455 built. It served until > this summer controlling a very large 60"x60" XY plotter. This is one of > only 2 of this size in the world, and is used to prepare glass plates for > etching. The plotter moves in increments of 1/10000 of an inch. The > plotter was built in the late 1960's by Concord Electronics in > California. The plotter is built on a granite slab about 3 feet thick, > which rests on supports which were drilled down to bedrock. In order to > be installed, the rear wall of the building was removed. The Concord > controls fill 3 cabinets, and these are controlled in turn by the PDP-9. > Two PDP-11's are used to control and programme the PDP-9. This summer a > more modern control system the size of a filing cabinet replaced the 3 > six-foot control racks, and a Dell server and UPS replaced the DEC's. We > were give the PDP-9, PDP-11's, and Concord control parts, as well as > spare flip chips, terminals, paper tapes, manuals, etc. Congratualtions. ACONIT, here in Grenoble, has 2 PDP-9's one used to control an experiment at CERN. We laso have a quite extensive library of documentation, paper-tapes and DECtapes. The state of the DECtapes is unknown till we got our system working again. If you need any assistance please feel free to contact me. This is the 5th PDP-9 that I am aware of, we have two, there is one in Australia and I learnt of another one in Germany a few days ago. Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From donm at cts.com Tue Sep 14 23:16:45 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Need ID for IBM Cards [+ Picture] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > If I can find the MagCard manual, I'll see if I can find the capacity. I > don't know if it mirrored the punch card or not, although I think it > held more data. They were supposed to be terrors to run. Not really, as I recall, even an engineer could run one :) As to capacity, my (probably foggy) recollection is that they held about a page and a half of text. - don > On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Wayne Smith wrote: > > > I think you're right. You are the second person to ID the cards as from an early memory typewriter. I should have mentioned in my earlier post that each of the cards was paperclipped to a carbon copy of a document. Based on the length of the documents, these cards didn't hold much. > > > > I have posted a scan of a couple of these cards at http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/_uimages/IBMCards.jpg to the extent that it helps in further IDing them. > > > > Thanks. > > > > >>>> "Merle K. Peirce" 09/14 2:16 AM >>> > > >Sounds like a magcard, probably from an old MagcardII typewriter or a > > >Displaywriter. > > > > > >On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Wayne Smith wrote: > > > > > >> I was just going through a box of old files (circa 1970) that my office is throwing out and I found four cards that I need an ID on. >>They are the same size and shape as a standard puch card, but appear to be made of some sort of magnetic media. They are >>approximately the color of standard magnetic cassette tape on one side, and nearly black on the other. Each card has "IBM" >>printed on it in white with a direction arrow next to it in one corner of the card directly opposite the notch. In the corner with the >>notch there are two groups of 3 digits, also in white. > > >> > > >> The cards have what appear to be track marks on them in three parallel rows on the horizontal, as if fed through a reader. > > >> > > >> Thanks. If it would be useful I post a scan of one of these. > > >> >________O/_______ O\ From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Sep 14 23:39:41 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: SoCal TRW Swap Sep 25th Message-ID: On 25th September, AD 1999, will occur YATS. (Yet Another TRW Swapmeet). The swapmeet is held in El Segundo, a suburb of Los Angeles, CA, USA, at the TRW facility. It is open from 7:00 to 11:30 Am local (pacific) time. There is no charge for buyer entry. From the 405 (San Diego) freeway, take the Rosecrans exit and proceed West on Rosecrans approximately 1 mile, to the intersection of Aviation and Rosecrans. Turn left (south) on Aviation, and go south about 1/2 mile. The TRW plant will be on your right as you go south. Find a place to park and join us. I will be happy to entertain any classiccmpers who wish to show up... my spaces are J21 and 23. Marvin threatens to attend this month's Event, so between him and myself (and maybe Mike Ford) there will be nothing Good left. On second thought... don't bother. It's too early, and we're sure you have plenty of Saturday chores to get done. But if you *do* show up, please come by and say "G'Day, Mate!". If there is sufficient interest, a post-swap Brag-n-Brunch will be held at a local greasy spoon. [We have had upwards of 15 folk at these soirees.] Also, there is always space for a few items that you may wish to expose to the Buying Public. Contact me via private e-mail and we'll sort out the logistics. NOTE: The swapmeet venue is due to be moved in December, ie., the last Meet in the present location will be November's. As of now, it is anticipated that the move will be to another parking lot a block away, but no confirmation of that is in hand. So.... get it while the gettin's good. Cheers John From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Sep 15 00:13:26 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: List spam traced Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990914221326.009a8920@mail.bluefeathertech.com> The recent spam to the list has been traced back to its source and reported. I will say only that the attempt at header forgery, on the part of the spammer, was somewhere between insignificant and pathetic. Then again, given the average intelligence level (or lack thereof) on the part of your typical chickenboner, this comes as no surprise whatsoever. In this case, the spam originated from a Los Angeles dialup node belonging to flash.net. I will advise the list of any response I receive. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Sep 15 00:31:34 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Getting ready for VCF III? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990914223134.03352a3c@agora.rdrop.com> It's creeping up! A little over two weeks left... In case anyone has been curious, or not... B^} A couple of shots from within the depths of The Computer Garage of one of the Altairs hard at work backing up disks for the VCF Faire exhibit have made their way onto the 'Events and Appearances' page of the Computer Garage web site. Disorganized? Who me??? -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From mowhco at att.net Tue Sep 14 19:06:38 1999 From: mowhco at att.net (mowhco@att.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Homeworkers Needed! Message-ID: <669.828814.290793@ns.bigbear.net> Dear Future Associate, You Can Work At Home & Set Your Own Hours. Start earning Big Money in a short time NO Newspaper Advertising! Your job will be to stuff and mail envelopes for our company. You will receive $.25 for each and every envelope you stuff and mail out. 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Plus you will get your own special code number, so that we will know how much you are to get paid. And to make re-ordering of more envelopes, that our company supplies very simple for you. We are giving you this free bonus because we want you to be confident in our company and to ensure that we will be doing business with you for a long time. Benefits Of This Job: 1. You do not have to quit your present job, to earn more money at home 2. You can make between $2,500 to $4,500 a month depending on the amount of time you are willing to spend stuffing and mailing envelopes 3. This is a great opportunity for the students, mothers, disabled persons or those who are home bodies. To secure your position and to show us that you are serious about earning extra income at home we require a one-time registration fee of $35.00. 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From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Sep 15 01:02:52 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Homeworkers Needed! -and spam reported Message-ID: In a message dated 9/15/99 12:29:50 AM US Eastern Standard Time, some spammer scum wrote: > Dear Future Associate, > > You Can Work At Home & Set Your Own Hours. Start earning Big > Money in a short time > > NO Newspaper Advertising! LARTs sent to flash.net; thanks to spamcop.net ! From cutler at nmah.si.edu Wed Sep 15 02:17:26 1999 From: cutler at nmah.si.edu (Alicia M. Cutler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 895 -Reply Message-ID: I will be on vacation from Aug 23 to Sept 15 and will get back to you after that date. I apologize for the delay. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Sep 15 03:32:56 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: References: <199909150008.UAA23082@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Sep 14, 99 08:08:38 pm Message-ID: Given the current discussion, has anyone looked the Central Point "copy card" floppy controller over? I am looking at one of mine right now, and to my limited "PC" eyes it seems fairly normal. Barely the length of a short ISA slot, with fingers on a edge connector as well as a set of header pins for the floppy drive cable. It has one main chip: Transcopy 3 c CPS TC19GO32AP-0036 Japan 8819EA! the ! could be just a vertical line. Its about 8051 sized, maybe 60 pins. There is a 48 khz crystal, and a 1987 copyright. Two sets of jumpers seem to select between PC/XT and AT/Compaq, another set looks like DMA1 or DMA2. Remaining chips are a LS245 to the ISA bus, a 7406 by the PC/XT jumpers, and a 8812S UM8326B next to the crystal. This is one of the cards I check every old PC I see for. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Sep 15 03:39:28 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Why is the Coleco Adam so xxxx popular? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >well, supposedly there were various applications for it, so you could process >words or do the ubiquitous home budgeting. it had a built-in printer which >was handy and the built-in basic was very similar to applesoft. only thing >you had to remember is not to leave a data tape in the drive when turning it >on or the tape's info will be destroyed. This was around the time of the Franklin and Laser Apple II clones, if I remember correctly, and one of my friends contracted to do the OS for Coleco and had it pretty much finished when the legal types canned it. He had way too much experience with Apple DOS, and the legal trick at the time was to reverse engineer the DOS with a software team that had no direct exposure to the original using just the public information on calls etc. That and other cost cutting, budget busting, things killed it. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Sep 15 04:34:25 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: SoCal TRW Swap Sep 25th In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On 25th September, AD 1999, will occur YATS. (Yet Another TRW >Swapmeet). Just to tag along with that; the hamfest at Cal Poly Pomona is the Saturday before, on the 18th, and the day after, Sunday the 26th is the big ACP swapmeet in Santa Ana. From at258 at osfn.org Wed Sep 15 06:19:37 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: 12 In-Reply-To: <37DF19FF.33CEAE01@digiweb.com> Message-ID: While we have to store it for a bit until we figure out how to get it upstairs, we're really interested in getting it to work. Unfortunately, our elevator has not been repaired, and the 9 is about 10 inches too tall for it anyway. It was brutal getting the 2 PDP-10's upstairs, and we still have two tape drives to bring up. On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Hans B Pufal wrote: > Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > > > Our latest acquisition is a PDP-9, one of 455 built. It served until > > this summer controlling a very large 60"x60" XY plotter. This is one of > > only 2 of this size in the world, and is used to prepare glass plates for > > etching. The plotter moves in increments of 1/10000 of an inch. The > > plotter was built in the late 1960's by Concord Electronics in > > California. The plotter is built on a granite slab about 3 feet thick, > > which rests on supports which were drilled down to bedrock. In order to > > be installed, the rear wall of the building was removed. The Concord > > controls fill 3 cabinets, and these are controlled in turn by the PDP-9. > > Two PDP-11's are used to control and programme the PDP-9. This summer a > > more modern control system the size of a filing cabinet replaced the 3 > > six-foot control racks, and a Dell server and UPS replaced the DEC's. We > > were give the PDP-9, PDP-11's, and Concord control parts, as well as > > spare flip chips, terminals, paper tapes, manuals, etc. > > > Congratualtions. ACONIT, here in Grenoble, has 2 PDP-9's one used to > control an experiment at CERN. We laso have a quite extensive library of > documentation, paper-tapes and DECtapes. The state of the DECtapes is > unknown till we got our system working again. > > If you need any assistance please feel free to contact me. > > This is the 5th PDP-9 that I am aware of, we have two, there is one in > Australia and I learnt of another one in Germany a few days ago. > > Regards > > _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- > Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Sep 15 08:00:11 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: HP 7475 Plotter Message-ID: <01BEFF58.B866C3A0.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Monday, September 13, 1999 6:53 PM, JAMES WEBSTER [SMTP:jwebste3@bellsouth.net] wrote: > Gene, > > I do not own one of these plotters. But from my notes, > Windows 9x has native drivers for the HP7475 and HP7550 > plotters. How functional they are, I do not know. From > the Control Panel select Add Printer and proceed from > there. I would be interested in knowing how well the > native driver works. Thanks! > Jim Webster I've used a HP 7550 with the Microsoft WIN 95 drivers and it works very well. Steve Robertson - From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Sep 15 08:16:31 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Getting ready for VCF III? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990914223134.03352a3c@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990915061631.00989e70@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 22:31 14-09-1999 -0700, you wrote: >It's creeping up! A little over two weeks left... How well I know! Just have to get my airline tickets and I'll be all set... I will see the lot of you there. This year is unique as it will be the first time I've been able to make two Bay Area trips in the same year since VCF 1.0. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From jlwest at tseinc.com Wed Sep 15 08:50:16 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay Message-ID: <004401beff81$3df0ae00$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> It appears the HP 2114 on ebay sold from what I hear, it's no longer listed in any case. Just out of curiousity, did anyone here on the list get it??? Jay West From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Sep 15 08:43:06 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: <19990915.085050.220.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> I have one of these. Does anyone know how it's hooked up? Anybody got the S/W for this thing? Supposedly, you can write any format on the planet with this thing. I've heard that it won't run i faster, newer machines. Does anyone know what the limitations are? Jeff On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:32:56 -0700 Mike Ford writes: > Given the current discussion, has anyone looked the Central Point > "copy > card" floppy controller over? > > I am looking at one of mine right now, and to my limited "PC" eyes > it seems > fairly normal. Barely the length of a short ISA slot, with fingers > on a > edge connector as well as a set of header pins for the floppy drive > cable. > It has one main chip: > > Transcopy 3 c CPS > TC19GO32AP-0036 > Japan 8819EA! the ! could be just a vertical line. > > Its about 8051 sized, maybe 60 pins. There is a 48 khz crystal, and > a 1987 > copyright. Two sets of jumpers seem to select between PC/XT and > AT/Compaq, > another set looks like DMA1 or DMA2. > > Remaining chips are a LS245 to the ISA bus, a 7406 by the PC/XT > jumpers, > and a 8812S UM8326B next to the crystal. > > This is one of the cards I check every old PC I see for. > > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Sep 15 09:05:24 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <19990915.085050.220.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: > I have one of these. Does anyone know how it's hooked up? > Anybody got the S/W for this thing? Supposedly, you can > write any format on the planet with this thing. I've Nope, only softsector formats that used standard address marks. That leaves out apple, some CBM, Most heath H89 and all northstar systems at least. > heard that it won't run i faster, newer machines. Does > anyone know what the limitations are? The board is slow, make sure the ISA bus transactions are set up to not exceed 8mhz and also there should be IO waits. Bet best is to find and use an old 386 or 486. Allison From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Sep 15 09:27:03 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: <19990915.092711.204.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:05:24 -0400 (EDT) allisonp@world.std.com writes: > > I have one of these. Does anyone know how it's hooked up? > > Anybody got the S/W for this thing? Supposedly, you can > > write any format on the planet with this thing. I've > > Nope, only softsector formats that used standard address marks. > That leaves out apple, some CBM, Most heath H89 and all northstar systems > at least. Now see, I was *certain* that the whole original purpose of this critter was to copy Apple floppies using a PeeCee. I guess it's not that useful after all. > > heard that it won't run i faster, newer machines. Does > > anyone know what the limitations are? > > The board is slow, make sure the ISA bus transactions are set up to > not exceed 8mhz and also there should be IO waits. Bet best is to find > and use an old 386 or 486. Hah! You think everybody's got 386's and 486's laying around?! Sheesh! :^) I'd use one of my 286's for this job-- assuming it could do anything useful. Peace. Jeff > > Allison > > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Wed Sep 15 09:45:39 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay In-Reply-To: <004401beff81$3df0ae00$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> from Jay West at "Sep 15, 1999 08:50:16 am" Message-ID: <19990915144546Z13885-22076+116@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > It appears the HP 2114 on ebay sold from what I hear, it's no longer listed > in any case. Just out of curiousity, did anyone here on the list get it??? > I had been watching that auction. It wasn't supposed to end until Sept. 16, but it all of a sudden finished yesterday afternoon. How common is this on eBay? I think the final price was $455. I was too busy bidding on some DEC stuff yesterday to pay much attention to the 2114, so I was a bit surprised to find the auction over when I looked. As I said earlier, I wouldn't mind some of the bits and pieces. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 15 10:02:32 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: <001001beff8b$7031c700$0400c0a8@winbook> Since PC's use MFM on their floppies and are, at the hardware level, capable of MFM and FM, and the Apple ][ uses neither, it's unlikely you'll succeed taking that approach. I recommend using an Apple][ with the Z80 card running CP/M and MODEM7 <=> Terminal or HYPERTERMINAL on your PC running Windows. DOS will work if you use Pocomm or TELIX. Other comm programs are likely to work also. That's the least painful way I can envision, since the APPLE diskettes are totally foreign to "standard" modulation schemes used with FD's and their controllers. It would not surprise me to learn that there's an easy way to do this same thing with LINUX as well. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey l Kaneko To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 8:34 AM Subject: Re: Central Point Option floppy controller > > >On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:05:24 -0400 (EDT) allisonp@world.std.com writes: >> > I have one of these. Does anyone know how it's hooked up? >> > Anybody got the S/W for this thing? Supposedly, you can >> > write any format on the planet with this thing. I've >> >> Nope, only softsector formats that used standard address marks. >> That leaves out apple, some CBM, Most heath H89 and all northstar >systems >> at least. > >Now see, I was *certain* that the whole original purpose of this critter >was to copy Apple floppies using a PeeCee. I guess it's not that >useful after all. > >> > heard that it won't run i faster, newer machines. Does >> > anyone know what the limitations are? >> >> The board is slow, make sure the ISA bus transactions are set up to >> not exceed 8mhz and also there should be IO waits. Bet best is to find > >> and use an old 386 or 486. > >Hah! You think everybody's got 386's and 486's laying around?! Sheesh! >:^) >I'd use one of my 286's for this job-- assuming it could do anything >useful. > > >Peace. > >Jeff > >> >> Allison >> >> > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Sep 15 10:20:56 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: <9cff62ec.25111358@aol.com> If I remember, someone marketed an apple II on a card that fit in an ISA PC. I don't remember how the drives hooked up but I do remember the software that came with it included Central Point's drive conversion program. It would read Apple at the very least. I had two of these NIB at one time. Anyone else know of these? Paxton From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 15 10:31:51 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <9cff62ec.25111358@aol.com> from "Innfogra@aol.com" at Sep 15, 99 11:20:56 am Message-ID: <199909151531.IAA27895@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 629 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990915/ab16ad24/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Wed Sep 15 10:34:30 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Opening Shrink Wrapped Packages References: <001001beff8b$7031c700$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <37DFBC86.6F559A4@rain.org> One of the things I picked up (at TRW!) a few years ago was a shrink-wrapped copy of IBM PC-DOS 1.1 w/ Graphics. I have had the urge to open it up, but I haven't yet and really don't plan to open it. The main reason for opening it is curiousity as to what was included in the package. I have no intentions of using it, and somewhere I have another DOS 1.1 system disk that I can play with if so inclined. My general rule of thumb is leave it shrinkwrapped until a *compelling* reason comes along to actually open the package. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 15 10:40:44 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <001001beff8b$7031c700$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Sep 15, 99 09:02:32 am Message-ID: <199909151540.IAA28368@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1064 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990915/5b94cda9/attachment.ksh From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 10:38:40 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Apple ][ in an ISA card (was Re: Central Point Option floppy controller) Message-ID: <19990915153840.16633.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > If I remember, someone marketed an apple II on a card that fit in an ISA PC. > I don't remember how the drives hooked up but I do remember the software that > > came with it included Central Point's drive conversion program. It would read > > Apple at the very least. I had two of these NIB at one time. > Anyone else know of these? > Paxton Was that a "TrackStar" card? I have a complete Apple ][ on an ISA card, but I've never even installed it in a machine. It looked interesting, but I never really needed to use it. -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Sep 15 10:47:14 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <199909151531.IAA27895@shell2.aracnet.com> References: <9cff62ec.25111358@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990915114714.0092daa0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: >> >> If I remember, someone marketed an apple II on a card that fit in an ISA PC. >> I don't remember how the drives hooked up but I do remember the software that >> came with it included Central Point's drive conversion program. It would read >> Apple at the very least. I had two of these NIB at one time. >> Anyone else know of these? >> Paxton >> > >Could you be thinking of one of the Apple ][ on a board cards that were >available in the late 80's? I know Apple made one that went in a Mac LC, >and I think at least one company made them for the PC. You could attach a >genuine Apple ][ drive to one of these cards. You might be thinking of the Trakstar [sp?] -- they had a few different versions, one of the last being Apple //e compatible. Want one??? They're still available (for ~$20USD or so, IIRC) from here: www.ahhz.com Hope that helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Sep 15 10:45:51 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Opening Shrink Wrapped Packages Message-ID: In a message dated 9/15/99 11:35:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, marvin@rain.org writes: > One of the things I picked up (at TRW!) a few years ago was a shrink-wrapped > copy of IBM PC-DOS 1.1 w/ Graphics. I have had the urge to open it up, but I > haven't yet and really don't plan to open it. The main reason for opening it > is curiousity as to what was included in the package. I have no intentions > of using it, and somewhere I have another DOS 1.1 system disk that I can > play with if so inclined. > > My general rule of thumb is leave it shrinkwrapped until a *compelling* > reason comes along to actually open the package. I agree. i actually found wrapped packages of OS/2 versions 1.1 and 1.3 cheap. I opened the 1.3 version only to install it on an old 286to see what it was like. -->this message printed on recycled disk space. visit the computers of yesteryear at: http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Sep 15 10:47:29 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: In a message dated 9/15/99 11:32:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > > > > If I remember, someone marketed an apple II on a card that fit in an ISA > PC. > > I don't remember how the drives hooked up but I do remember the software > that > > came with it included Central Point's drive conversion program. It would > read > > Apple at the very least. I had two of these NIB at one time. > > Anyone else know of these? > > Paxton > > > > Could you be thinking of one of the Apple ][ on a board cards that were > available in the late 80's? I know Apple made one that went in a Mac LC, > and I think at least one company made them for the PC. You could attach a > genuine Apple ][ drive to one of these cards. > > Zane > there was something called the trackstar which allowed pretty good //e emulation. A disk ][ plugged into the adaptor card so essentially you had the real thing. d -->this message printed on recycled disk space. visit the computers of yesteryear at: http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From jwebste3 at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 15 12:10:55 1999 From: jwebste3 at bellsouth.net (JAMES WEBSTER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: HP 7475 Plotter References: <01BEFF58.B866C3A0.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <37DFD31E.23B4@bellsouth.net> Steve Robertson wrote: > > On Monday, September 13, 1999 6:53 PM, JAMES WEBSTER [SMTP:jwebste3@bellsouth.net] wrote: > > Gene, > > > > I do not own one of these plotters. But from my notes, > > Windows 9x has native drivers for the HP7475 and HP7550 > > plotters. How functional they are, I do not know. From > > the Control Panel select Add Printer and proceed from > > there. I would be interested in knowing how well the > > native driver works. Thanks! > > Jim Webster > > I've used a HP 7550 with the Microsoft WIN 95 drivers and it works very well. > > Steve Robertson - Steve, Thanks!! Jim Webster From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Sep 15 10:54:13 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: <8bbe3f94.25111b25@aol.com> In a message dated 9/15/99 9:55:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jeff.kaneko@juno.com writes: > I have one of these. Does anyone know how it's hooked up? > Anybody got the S/W for this thing? Supposedly, you can > write any format on the planet with this thing. I've > heard that it won't run i faster, newer machines. Does > anyone know what the limitations are? > > Jeff i have something called the deluxe option board. it allows: exchange data with mac users if 3.5 drive is installed. copy copy protected disks. make copies of non-IBM formats as long as they are not copy protected. edit tracks on any disk. the book says it's compatible with anything of that time. (PC->386) d -->this message printed on recycled disk space. visit the computers of yesteryear at: http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Sep 15 11:10:24 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Apple ][ in an ISA card (was Re: Central Point Option floppy controller) In-Reply-To: <19990915153840.16633.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > > If I remember, someone marketed an apple II on a card that fit in an ISA PC. > > I don't remember how the drives hooked up but I do remember the software that > > > > came with it included Central Point's drive conversion program. It would read > > > > Apple at the very least. I had two of these NIB at one time. > > Anyone else know of these? > > Paxton > > Was that a "TrackStar" card? I have a complete Apple ][ on an ISA card, but > I've never even installed it in a machine. It looked interesting, but I never > really needed to use it. Hmmm... I don't know about the 'TrackStar' name, but I definately remember the card. It was a complete Apple ][ implemented on a single, full length ISA card for use in a PC. You ran a cable from your existing (CGA) video board to a connector on the 'Apple' card, and then plugged the monitor into a second connector. As for the drives, you connected the cable from the normal 'PC' controller to a connector on the 'Apple' card, and then connected the cable from the drives to a second connector. This way the 'PC' operated normally (at least as normal as ever) until the 'Apple' was booted. I seem to recall either a boot disc or keyboard sequence to select/activate the 'Apple' card. I can't for the life of me put my finger on the name of the vendor who put out the card, tho it seems to be hanging right on the edge... of... QuadRam! Hmmm... now was that the name of the company, or one of their products??? If was definately 'Quad'-something... I think 'QuadRam' is the company name... Product boxes always in a deep blue color scheme... I know I had one once upon a time, but don't think I still do... -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 15 11:50:09 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:20 2005 Subject: Apple ][ in an ISA card (was Re: Central Point Option floppy controller) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apple on a card for PC: QuadLink by QuadRam. Nice idea, but out of several dozen units, we had a 70% DOA rate. We also had a 70% DOA rate on the replacements. Two of the replacement units had their connectors misinstalled, showing that QuadRam had NOT tested even REPLACEMENT units. Trakstar 128 by Diamond. Was also available for a while through RS! Boards to go between FDC board and drives for file transfer: Apple Turnover from Vertex. Supported AppleOS, CP/M, Pascal, ProDOS. Don't talk to me about Vertex. Matchpoint? from MicroSolutions (maker of Uniform, now involved only in external drive units) Deluxe Option Board from Central Point. Original option board could not do it. Anybody have software for the "Transcopy" board? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Sep 15 12:10:13 1999 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: Actually, the Deluxe Option Board will copy Apple II diskettes. I've tested this myself. As far as I can tell, it will copy absolutely any soft-sector format, and there is even a bit-by-bit mode that will sometimes work on some hard sector disks. I'll be bringing my Compaq PC (a.k.a. Portable I, 8088 with the dual full-height 5-1/4" floppies) to the VCF. It has a Deluxe Option Board installed and an internal 3.5" IDE HD run by a Silicon Valley IDE controller with BIOS. The hard drive is there so I can load the Option Board software without a lot of floppy swapping. It'll be set up as a free diskette-copying station. Kai -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com [mailto:allisonp@world.std.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 7:05 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Central Point Option floppy controller > I have one of these. Does anyone know how it's hooked up? > Anybody got the S/W for this thing? Supposedly, you can > write any format on the planet with this thing. I've Nope, only softsector formats that used standard address marks. That leaves out apple, some CBM, Most heath H89 and all northstar systems at least. > heard that it won't run i faster, newer machines. Does > anyone know what the limitations are? The board is slow, make sure the ISA bus transactions are set up to not exceed 8mhz and also there should be IO waits. Bet best is to find and use an old 386 or 486. Allison From morrison at t-iii.com Wed Sep 15 12:22:43 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F267@hobbit.t-iii.com> My buddy has one of these. It works fine in an older computer, but fails in a faster one. I may have to rebuild my 12MHz 286 to run it. Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Ford [SMTP:mikeford@socal.rr.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 1:33 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller > > Given the current discussion, has anyone looked the Central Point "copy > card" floppy controller over? > > I am looking at one of mine right now, and to my limited "PC" eyes it > seems > fairly normal. Barely the length of a short ISA slot, with fingers on a > edge connector as well as a set of header pins for the floppy drive cable. > It has one main chip: > > Transcopy 3 c CPS > TC19GO32AP-0036 > Japan 8819EA! the ! could be just a vertical line. > > Its about 8051 sized, maybe 60 pins. There is a 48 khz crystal, and a 1987 > copyright. Two sets of jumpers seem to select between PC/XT and AT/Compaq, > another set looks like DMA1 or DMA2. > > Remaining chips are a LS245 to the ISA bus, a 7406 by the PC/XT jumpers, > and a 8812S UM8326B next to the crystal. > > This is one of the cards I check every old PC I see for. > From morrison at t-iii.com Wed Sep 15 12:24:15 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F26C@hobbit.t-iii.com> You need Copy2PC to run it. Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey l Kaneko [SMTP:jeff.kaneko@juno.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 6:43 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Central Point Option floppy controller > > I have one of these. Does anyone know how it's hooked up? > Anybody got the S/W for this thing? Supposedly, you can > write any format on the planet with this thing. I've > heard that it won't run i faster, newer machines. Does > anyone know what the limitations are? > > Jeff > > On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:32:56 -0700 Mike Ford > writes: > > Given the current discussion, has anyone looked the Central Point > > "copy > > card" floppy controller over? > > > > I am looking at one of mine right now, and to my limited "PC" eyes > > it seems > > fairly normal. Barely the length of a short ISA slot, with fingers > > on a > > edge connector as well as a set of header pins for the floppy drive > > cable. > > It has one main chip: > > > > Transcopy 3 c CPS > > TC19GO32AP-0036 > > Japan 8819EA! the ! could be just a vertical line. > > > > Its about 8051 sized, maybe 60 pins. There is a 48 khz crystal, and > > a 1987 > > copyright. Two sets of jumpers seem to select between PC/XT and > > AT/Compaq, > > another set looks like DMA1 or DMA2. > > > > Remaining chips are a LS245 to the ISA bus, a 7406 by the PC/XT > > jumpers, > > and a 8812S UM8326B next to the crystal. > > > > This is one of the cards I check every old PC I see for. > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From morrison at t-iii.com Wed Sep 15 12:27:25 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F274@hobbit.t-iii.com> Well, what I covet is a Dimension 68000. It was a Unix box, that could take cards and drives to let it emulate and run the OS for an Apple, TRS-80, CP/M and some other. I did see one once. Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Innfogra@aol.com [SMTP:Innfogra@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 8:21 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Central Point Option floppy controller > > If I remember, someone marketed an apple II on a card that fit in an ISA > PC. > I don't remember how the drives hooked up but I do remember the software > that > came with it included Central Point's drive conversion program. It would > read > Apple at the very least. I had two of these NIB at one time. > Anyone else know of these? > Paxton From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Sep 15 12:41:26 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <19990915.092711.204.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: > Now see, I was *certain* that the whole original purpose of this critter > was to copy Apple floppies using a PeeCee. I guess it's not that > useful after all. Since 90% of the apple format is done in 6502 software anything that reads that would ahve a 6502 or one of it's clones by inference. > > and use an old 386 or 486. > > Hah! You think everybody's got 386's and 486's laying around?! Sheesh! > :^) > I'd use one of my 286's for this job-- assuming it could do anything > useful. Live with it. Before I got a decent PC evenone assumed I had a Pentium. In the mean time look in dumpsters and garbage pails for your 386, they seems to be worthless here (Eastern MA). A 286 should be fine for use with that board if their software doesn't require it. I'd bet they don't need more than that. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Sep 15 12:43:48 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <001001beff8b$7031c700$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Since PC's use MFM on their floppies and are, at the hardware level, capable > of MFM and FM, and the Apple ][ uses neither, it's unlikely you'll succeed > taking that approach. I recommend using an Apple][ with the Z80 card > running CP/M and MODEM7 <=> Terminal or HYPERTERMINAL on your PC running > Windows. DOS will work if you use Pocomm or TELIX. Other comm programs are > likely to work also. Or one of the PC Diamond Trackstar Apple clone board that ran on the ISA-8. FYI: the apple disks are GCR encoded. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Sep 15 13:25:16 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: <990915142516.2020032d@trailing-edge.com> >> Now see, I was *certain* that the whole original purpose of this critter >> was to copy Apple floppies using a PeeCee. I guess it's not that >> useful after all. >Since 90% of the apple format is done in 6502 software anything that reads >that would ahve a 6502 or one of it's clones by inference. I understood that at least the nicer Central Point Option Boards (there were several different ones made) don't have any data decoder in hardware at all. The hardware simply records when transitions take place, and then pass this list to the software that does the decoding. (The Catweasel seems to work on the same principle, but it doesn't come with the decoding software...) -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Sep 15 13:25:31 1999 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: Actually, I would avoid a 286 with the Central Point board unless you're very familiar with the particular machine's architecture. Many 286 boxes had bus speeds greater than 8 MHz As AMD and others produced 286 chips up to 12 MHz & higher, a lot of manufacturers simply kept the bus at processor speed. Those machines were incompatible with a lot of cards. By the 386 days, they went back down to 8 MHz and kept it ever since. -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com [mailto:allisonp@world.std.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 10:41 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: Central Point Option floppy controller > Now see, I was *certain* that the whole original purpose of this critter > was to copy Apple floppies using a PeeCee. I guess it's not that > useful after all. Since 90% of the apple format is done in 6502 software anything that reads that would ahve a 6502 or one of it's clones by inference. > > and use an old 386 or 486. > > Hah! You think everybody's got 386's and 486's laying around?! Sheesh! > :^) > I'd use one of my 286's for this job-- assuming it could do anything > useful. Live with it. Before I got a decent PC evenone assumed I had a Pentium. In the mean time look in dumpsters and garbage pails for your 386, they seems to be worthless here (Eastern MA). A 286 should be fine for use with that board if their software doesn't require it. I'd bet they don't need more than that. Allison From morrison at t-iii.com Wed Sep 15 13:29:47 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F322@hobbit.t-iii.com> Yes. I remember wading my way through "Beneath Apple Dos" trying to figure out Woz's Wonder Ways with not too much success! > -----Original Message----- > From: allisonp@world.std.com [SMTP:allisonp@world.std.com] > > Or one of the PC Diamond Trackstar Apple clone board that ran on the > ISA-8. > > FYI: the apple disks are GCR encoded. > > Allison > From morrison at t-iii.com Wed Sep 15 13:32:26 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Tandy Computers Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F327@hobbit.t-iii.com> I called a buddy at the local Rad Shack repair depot and asked if they had any old repair manuals for the 8bit computers, pockets etc that they no longer wanted. I heard the saddest thing one can hear "We threw them all in the dumpster a month ago!" So if you have an R/S depot near you, you might want to try them and see what they may give away. Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Sep 15 15:56:39 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F322@hobbit.t-iii.com> Message-ID: <199909151857.UAA22413@horus.mch.sni.de> > Yes. I remember wading my way through "Beneath Apple Dos" trying to figure > out Woz's Wonder Ways with not too much success! Well, if it is offered on a silver spoon, like in the mentioned book (or when reading the code), Apple DOS is quite simple to understand ... I just think _I_ would have had a lot of trouble creating it. Gruss H. (Hint, skip your strikt byte sendes thinking and try to see the low level DOS funktions more like hardware) -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 14:23:56 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Older Intel CPUs (was Re: Central Point Option floppy controller) Message-ID: <19990915192356.19733.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > and use an old 386 or 486. > > > > Hah! You think everybody's got 386's and 486's laying around?! Sheesh! > > :^) > > I'd use one of my 286's for this job-- assuming it could do anything > > useful. > > Live with it. Before I got a decent PC everyone assumed I had a Pentium. > In the mean time look in dumpsters and garbage pails for your 386, they > seems to be worthless here (Eastern MA). I've seen 12 Mhz 286 motherboards w/memory for sale at local shows for under $10. *Finding* intact 286 systems is much harder. Personally, I stick with stuff that will run Linux as a baseline of new stuff to aquire for day-to-day work (like the 486DLC w/16Mb I got for under $20 that's now a webcam running Linux from a floppy. The only reason I paid anything for it was for the 4Mb parity 30-pin SIMMs and the ultra-tiny form-factor motherboard - 1/2 Baby AT sized). I tend toward XT-class and 386-class machines, depending on the use. I never really got into 286's. -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From hansp at digiweb.com Wed Sep 15 14:32:15 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay References: <19990915144546Z13885-22076+116@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <37DFF43F.23AAC59D@digiweb.com> Mark Green wrote: > > [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > > It appears the HP 2114 on ebay sold from what I hear, it's no longer listed > > in any case. Just out of curiousity, did anyone here on the list get it??? > > > > I had been watching that auction. It wasn't supposed to end until > Sept. 16, but it all of a sudden finished yesterday afternoon. How > common is this on eBay? I think the final price was $455. I was > too busy bidding on some DEC stuff yesterday to pay much attention > to the 2114, so I was a bit surprised to find the auction over > when I looked. Yes this has happened before - I'm not sure why but I think the seller was made an offer he couldn't refuse and aborted the auction. _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 13:19:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <001001beff8b$7031c700$0400c0a8@winbook> from "Richard Erlacher" at Sep 15, 99 09:02:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1543 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990915/39d95c35/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 13:26:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Apple ][ in an ISA card (was Re: Central Point Option floppy controller) In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Sep 15, 99 09:10:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2358 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990915/5b4149a4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 13:00:09 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) In-Reply-To: <199909150240.WAA04014@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Sep 14, 99 10:40:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 859 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990915/90aa71da/attachment.ksh From lance at costanzo.net Wed Sep 15 14:46:05 1999 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Older Intel CPUs (was Re: Central Point Option floppy controller) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990915124603.0076c25c@costanzo.net> At 12:23 PM 09/15/1999 -0700, you wrote: >--- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >> > > and use an old 386 or 486. >> > Hah! You think everybody's got 386's and 486's laying around?! Sheesh! >> > :^) >> > I'd use one of my 286's for this job-- assuming it could do anything >> > useful. >> Live with it. Before I got a decent PC everyone assumed I had a Pentium. >> In the mean time look in dumpsters and garbage pails for your 386, they >> seems to be worthless here (Eastern MA). >I've seen 12 Mhz 286 motherboards w/memory for sale at local shows for under >$10. *Finding* intact 286 systems is much harder. I've got over 50 286's and a dozen 386's out in the shop. Various configs, all with HDD, KB, monitor (mostly mono, some mono-VGA). All for sale -cheep-. Need a spare - let me know. Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting lance@costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 15 14:42:09 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay In-Reply-To: <004401beff81$3df0ae00$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> (jlwest@tseinc.com) References: <004401beff81$3df0ae00$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> Message-ID: <19990915194209.12691.qmail@brouhaha.com> > It appears the HP 2114 on ebay sold from what I hear, it's no longer listed > in any case. Just out of curiousity, did anyone here on the list get it??? Someone I know got it. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Sep 15 14:42:25 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: <19990915.145352.222.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 13:41:26 -0400 (EDT) allisonp@world.std.com writes: > > I'd use one of my 286's for this job-- assuming it could do > > anything useful. > > Live with it. Before I got a decent PC evenone assumed I had a Pentium. > In the mean time look in dumpsters and garbage pails for your 386, they > seems to be worthless here (Eastern MA). Actually, I was just being a wiseguy. I got *some* 32-bit WinTel stuff. It's just that they're committed to projects at the moment! > A 286 should be fine for use with that board if their software > doesn't require it. I'd bet they don't need more than that. Naw, all of that dos based stuff runs just fine on 16-bit hardware. It's when they started doing all of these fancy memory tricks that got us into trouble. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Sep 15 14:53:43 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Older Intel CPUs (was Re: Central Point Option floppy controller) Message-ID: <19990915.145352.222.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 12:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Ethan Dicks writes: > I've seen 12 Mhz 286 motherboards w/memory for sale at local shows > for under $10. That's about what they are here *Finding* intact 286 systems is much harder. I was given a Taiwan No-name 286 system last year. I picked up a PC's limited 286 box for *nothing*. > Personally, I > stick with stuff that will run Linux as a baseline of new stuff to aquire for > day-to-day work (like the 486DLC w/16Mb I got for under $20 that's now a webcam > running Linux from a floppy. The only reason I paid anything for it was for > the 4Mb parity 30-pin SIMMs and the ultra-tiny form-factor motherboard - 1/2 > Baby AT sized). I use my 286's to torture test MFM disk drives (among other things). I also like toying with Xenix, when I've nothing better to do. > I tend toward XT-class and 386-class machines, depending on the use. > I never really got into 286's. I'm thinking of building an XT, just so I can test my WD-1003-WX2's, and -XT-GEN's. Yeah I know, I know, they should work in an 'AT', but 'it aint natural'. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Sep 15 14:59:00 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay In-Reply-To: <37DFF43F.23AAC59D@digiweb.com> References: <19990915144546Z13885-22076+116@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> Message-ID: <4.1.19990915155340.00a9a830@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:32 PM 9/15/99 +0200, Hans B Pufal said something like: >Mark Green wrote: >> >> [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] >> > It appears the HP 2114 on ebay sold from what I hear, it's no longer listed >> > in any case. Just out of curiousity, did anyone here on the list get it??? >> > >> >> I had been watching that auction. It wasn't supposed to end until >> Sept. 16, but it all of a sudden finished yesterday afternoon. How >> common is this on eBay? I think the final price was $455. I was >> too busy bidding on some DEC stuff yesterday to pay much attention >> to the 2114, so I was a bit surprised to find the auction over >> when I looked. > >Yes this has happened before - I'm not sure why but I think the seller >was made an offer he couldn't refuse and aborted the auction. Or the seller thought the bidding up to that point didn't approach his possibly overinflated expectation and bailed before he had to commit to selling it at, say, $455? If he had no reserve then this could be a credible second reason (I didn't check to see if he had a reserve). I couldn't even find it in the closed or "ended auction" area. Did he or somebody completely remove all reference to the auction? Can that be done? Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Wed Sep 15 15:04:11 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay Message-ID: <990915160411.2020032d@trailing-edge.com> >I couldn't even find it in the closed or "ended auction" area. Did he or >somebody completely remove all reference to the auction? Can that be done? The E-bay administrative folks will completely remove all references to auctions that are determined to be in violation of E-bay policy. The case last week where someone was selling a human kidney is an example. I fail to see how an HP mini would fall into this category, though! Tim. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Sep 15 15:08:21 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Things I haven't seen lately In-Reply-To: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F274@hobbit.t-iii.com> Message-ID: >Well, what I covet is a Dimension 68000. It was a Unix box, that could take >cards and drives to let it emulate and run the OS for an Apple, TRS-80, CP/M >and some other. I did see one once. Sounds familiar. What I am curious about are some of the early 68k boards for the Apple II. They were sold as accelerators if I remember correctly. From morrison at t-iii.com Wed Sep 15 15:11:03 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F3C3@hobbit.t-iii.com> Ask eBay! They do get back after a while. Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Christian Fandt [SMTP:cfandt@netsync.net] > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 12:59 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: HP 2114 on ebay > ..... > I couldn't even find it in the closed or "ended auction" area. Did he or > somebody completely remove all reference to the auction? Can that be done? > ..... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 14:35:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Sep 15, 99 01:41:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1076 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990915/5815d9a7/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Sep 15 15:16:53 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay In-Reply-To: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F3C3@hobbit.t-iii.com> Message-ID: > > From: Christian Fandt [SMTP:cfandt@netsync.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 12:59 PM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: Re: HP 2114 on ebay > > > ..... > > > I couldn't even find it in the closed or "ended auction" area. Did he or > > somebody completely remove all reference to the auction? Can that be done? > > > ..... The offering can be found here: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160802545 Looks like the eBay systems are running behind (yet again) in processing info on completed auctions. The final bid shows as $455.01 and it does not appear that there was a reserve. -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed Sep 15 15:17:25 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay In-Reply-To: <990915160411.2020032d@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: It's just not in the indexes anymore. Try the direct link http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=160802545 Carlos. On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >I couldn't even find it in the closed or "ended auction" area. Did he or > >somebody completely remove all reference to the auction? Can that be done? > > The E-bay administrative folks will completely remove all references to > auctions that are determined to be in violation of E-bay policy. The > case last week where someone was selling a human kidney is an example. > > I fail to see how an HP mini would fall into this category, though! > > Tim. > From morrison at t-iii.com Wed Sep 15 15:22:45 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F3D8@hobbit.t-iii.com> I wonder if one could use a PIC chip to do it. They'll do 20Mhz, and they like bits. Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [SMTP:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 12:35 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Central Point Option floppy controller > .......... > But that doesn't mean that's the only way to read such disks. The format > (as in just what pulses appear where on the disk) is pretty well > documented. It wouldn't be that hard to use some random logic or an FPGA > to make a disk controller that read apple disks and transfered bytes to > whatever host you wanted to use. > > I would guess the pulse rate is going to be low enough that modern CPUs > could read the pulse-stream off the disk directly and decode it. I'm not > going to try it, but I would be very supprised if it couldn't be done. > > > -tony From morrison at t-iii.com Wed Sep 15 15:23:38 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F3DC@hobbit.t-iii.com> Gazumped by a penny! Holy smokes that's funny! Neil Morrison Implementation GTE Enterprise Solutions ph: (604) 293-5710 email:morrison@t-iii.com > Looks like the eBay systems are running behind (yet again) in processing > info on completed auctions. The final bid shows as $455.01 and it does > not appear that there was a reserve. > > -jim > From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 15 15:42:29 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > I have one of these. Does anyone know how it's hooked up? > > Anybody got the S/W for this thing? Supposedly, you can > > write any format on the planet with this thing. I've > > Nope, only softsector formats that used standard address marks. That > leaves out apple, some CBM, Most heath H89 and all northstar systems > at least. The last version - to my knowledge - the Deluxe Option Card claimed that it can copy the following "three basic types: MFM example: IBM PX, Kaypro, Amiga FM example: Atari GCR example: Apple, Macintosh, Commodore ...The TC software may not be able to copy all protected Apple and Atari disks, however. It also can't copy the back side of "flippy" diskettes. It should be noted that not all IBM drives are capable of reliably reading and writing GCR formats (Apple disks)." - don > > heard that it won't run i faster, newer machines. Does > > anyone know what the limitations are? > > The board is slow, make sure the ISA bus transactions are set up to not > exceed 8mhz and also there should be IO waits. Bet best is to find and > use an old 386 or 486. > > Allison > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 15 15:41:09 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller References: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F3D8@hobbit.t-iii.com> Message-ID: <9909151642260G.25253@vault.neurotica.com> Hell, big PICs like the 17C54 run at 33MHz, at damn near 1 avg ins/cycle, too. I'm *sure* it could be done with a PIC. It'd be a neat hack, no? :-) -Dave McGuire On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, morrison@t-iii.com wrote: >I wonder if one could use a PIC chip to do it. They'll do 20Mhz, and they >like bits. > >Neil Morrison >email:morrison@t-iii.com > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [SMTP:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] >> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 12:35 PM >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> Subject: Re: Central Point Option floppy controller >> > .......... >> But that doesn't mean that's the only way to read such disks. The format >> (as in just what pulses appear where on the disk) is pretty well >> documented. It wouldn't be that hard to use some random logic or an FPGA >> to make a disk controller that read apple disks and transfered bytes to >> whatever host you wanted to use. >> >> I would guess the pulse rate is going to be low enough that modern CPUs >> could read the pulse-stream off the disk directly and decode it. I'm not >> going to try it, but I would be very supprised if it couldn't be done. >> >> >> -tony From peter at joules0.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 15:20:30 1999 From: peter at joules0.demon.co.uk (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Homeworkers Needed! In-Reply-To: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1EEDE@hobbit.t-iii.com> References: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1EEDE@hobbit.t-iii.com> Message-ID: In article <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1EEDE@hobbit.t-iii.com>, morrison@t-iii.com writes >If this was a complaint about a particular junk e-mail, we appear >to have received as many complaints as was necessary to take >appropriate action and do not require any further reports to >document this incident. Am I cynical or does this mean that they aren't interested and so just send this out to make it look as if they are dealing with their spammers? -- Regards Pete From morrison at t-iii.com Wed Sep 15 15:46:23 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F430@hobbit.t-iii.com> Yes. I thought of making a replacement FD card for my Coco that could read Apple. Nice if I could figure Commodore etc out also. Perhaps if it worked as a sort of bit copier like the CP Option card?? The Coco is easy because the card is just another program pak with it's own S/W on board. Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [SMTP:mcguire@neurotica.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 1:41 PM > To: Neil Morrison; Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: Central Point Option floppy controller > > > Hell, big PICs like the 17C54 run at 33MHz, at damn near 1 avg > ins/cycle, > too. I'm *sure* it could be done with a PIC. > > It'd be a neat hack, no? :-) > > -Dave McGuire > > On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, morrison@t-iii.com wrote: > >I wonder if one could use a PIC chip to do it. They'll do 20Mhz, and they > >like bits. > From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 15 15:54:33 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > Given the current discussion, has anyone looked the Central Point "copy > card" floppy controller over? First off, it is not a controller, per se, but rather a bridge adapter that goes between the ISA FDC and the floppy drive and enhances the FDC's native capabilities. > I am looking at one of mine right now, and to my limited "PC" eyes it seems > fairly normal. Barely the length of a short ISA slot, with fingers on a > edge connector as well as a set of header pins for the floppy drive cable. > It has one main chip: > > Transcopy 3 c CPS > TC19GO32AP-0036 > Japan 8819EA! the ! could be just a vertical line. > > Its about 8051 sized, maybe 60 pins. There is a 48 khz crystal, and a 1987 ^^-64 > copyright. Two sets of jumpers seem to select between PC/XT and AT/Compaq, > another set looks like DMA1 or DMA2. The PC/XT and AT/Compaq jumpers simply determine whether the header or the card edge connector is the output so as to match the drive cable. > Remaining chips are a LS245 to the ISA bus, a 7406 by the PC/XT jumpers, > and a 8812S UM8326B next to the crystal. > > This is one of the cards I check every old PC I see for. > > > - don From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 15:45:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <9909151642260G.25253@vault.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 15, 99 04:41:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 389 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990915/35cc6cdd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 15:47:52 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F430@hobbit.t-iii.com> from "morrison@t-iii.com" at Sep 15, 99 01:46:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 866 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990915/9dc28fa8/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 15 16:00:52 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <19990915.085050.220.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote: > I have one of these. Does anyone know how it's hooked up? > Anybody got the S/W for this thing? Supposedly, you can > write any format on the planet with this thing. I've > heard that it won't run i faster, newer machines. Does > anyone know what the limitations are? Jeff, there were various versions of the card, including one copyrighted in 1986 whose largest chip was 20 pins. Each required a different version of the software, I believe. I have several of the versions, but am unsure as to which card they are applicable. - don From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 15 15:54:41 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <9909151642260G.25253@vault.neurotica.com> (message from Dave McGuire on Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:41:09 -0400) References: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F3D8@hobbit.t-iii.com> <9909151642260G.25253@vault.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <19990915205441.13202.qmail@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Hell, big PICs like the 17C54 run at 33MHz, at damn near 1 avg ins/cycle, > too. I'm *sure* it could be done with a PIC. No, at 4 or 8 clock cycles per instruction, unfortunately. Microchip claims that their chips are "pipelined", but they don't understand the meaning of the word. They divide down the clock into four internal phases, for instruction fetch, operand read, ALU, and result writeback. This is documented in some of their data sheets. In a truly pipelined CPU, they would do the operand read for instruction n+1 at the same time as the ALU operation for instruction n and the result writeback for instruction n-1. Actually, although they don't describe it that way, I think that they do a limited sort of pipelining, in that I think they actually use all four clocks for each instruction fetch, and just latch the result on phase 1. That way their ROM doesn't have to be as fast. The Scenix SX18 and SX28 parts, which are enhanced clones of the PIC16C5x family, have a "turbo" mode that is fully pipelined, so most instructions really do run in one clock cycle (rather than four). Also, they run at up to 100 MHz. They would be much more suitable for implementing a floppy disk controller. From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Sep 15 16:07:57 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Reading TRS-80 discs (was RE: Archiving old discs...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Sure. I was thinking of cards like the original IBM one where the data > separator was a pile of chips. You can kludge a 9216 in place of them and > wire up the mode select pins on the 9216 to read FM disks. I happen to have an IBM floppy card and the circuit used is easily "adjusted" for other data rates. For 8" replace the 8mhz crystal with a 16mhz one. for single density you need to scale wrclock and the clock to the data seperator. Pretty straightforward if you have some of the old 765 application notes. Also write precomp is there it's a clock scaling problem. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 15 15:58:27 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: (message from Don Maslin on Wed, 15 Sep 1999 13:54:33 -0700 (PDT)) References: Message-ID: <19990915205827.13231.qmail@brouhaha.com> Don Maslin wrote about the Central Point cards: > First off, it is not a controller, per se, but rather a bridge adapter > that goes between the ISA FDC and the floppy drive and enhances the FDC's > native capabilities. No, it doesn't enhance the native FDC in any way; rather it bypasses most of it. It really is a separate "controller", using that term loosely. It allows the PC to read and write raw channel data, bypassing the native FDC's FM & MFM encoder and decoder. When using the card, the native FDC is only used to select the drive and seek to the desired track. From at258 at osfn.org Wed Sep 15 16:09:04 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Apple ][ in an ISA card (was Re: Central Point Option floppy controller) In-Reply-To: <19990915153840.16633.rocketmail@web601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Now that you mention it, we have one of those too. On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > --- Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > > If I remember, someone marketed an apple II on a card that fit in an ISA PC. > > I don't remember how the drives hooked up but I do remember the software that > > > > came with it included Central Point's drive conversion program. It would read > > > > Apple at the very least. I had two of these NIB at one time. > > Anyone else know of these? > > Paxton > > Was that a "TrackStar" card? I have a complete Apple ][ on an ISA card, but > I've never even installed it in a machine. It looked interesting, but I never > really needed to use it. > > -ethan > > > === > Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. > Please send all replies to > > erd@iname.com > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From morrison at t-iii.com Wed Sep 15 16:10:57 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Homeworkers Needed! Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F47D@hobbit.t-iii.com> I suspect it's boiler plae. Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Joules [SMTP:peter@joules0.demon.co.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 1:21 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Homeworkers Needed! > > In article <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1EEDE@hobbit.t-iii.com>, > morrison@t-iii.com writes > >If this was a complaint about a particular junk e-mail, we appear > >to have received as many complaints as was necessary to take > >appropriate action and do not require any further reports to > >document this incident. > > Am I cynical or does this mean that they aren't interested and so just > send this out to make it look as if they are dealing with their > spammers? > -- > Regards > Pete From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed Sep 15 16:13:45 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Find of the day Message-ID: Today I hauled in something that I have no experience whatsoever with, but that I'm sure most people in classiccmp own: a microvax II. I don't know if it works, or how to hook a terminal to it to test it. Here's what I've been able to gather: Cards: Slot description 1 CPU? it has two interesting-looking chips: 1: LSILIA 0485, 21-23413-01, DC379, TAC 8546 2: LSILIA 0486, 21-23389-01, DC379, CAC 8544 This is connected to a DB9M in the back panel (console goes here? what is the pinout? what is the funny-labeled rotary switch next to it?) 2 nemonix memory board, holds 56 TC511000AP-10 chips 3 dec memory board, holds 144 41256-212141302 chips 4 dec board, some labels are: LPWR M94V-1 25787, and "M7516" in the extraction handle; connected to a DB15F in the back panel 5 dec board, (disk controller?), reads M7555 in the extraction handle, connected to what seems to be an older RLL hard drive Hard drive: RD53-A rev A label in the back panel: Model: 630QB-A2 product variation: changed from 630QB-A2 to DH630Q4E2 by WFD. So what exactly is this beast and how can I test if it works? Best regards, Carlos. From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 15 16:19:13 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F26C@hobbit.t-iii.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 morrison@t-iii.com wrote: > You need Copy2PC to run it. No, Copy2PC was software only backup (protected disk) software. The Option Card software goes by different names. - don > Neil Morrison > email:morrison@t-iii.com > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jeffrey l Kaneko [SMTP:jeff.kaneko@juno.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 6:43 AM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: Re: Central Point Option floppy controller > > > > I have one of these. Does anyone know how it's hooked up? > > Anybody got the S/W for this thing? Supposedly, you can > > write any format on the planet with this thing. I've > > heard that it won't run i faster, newer machines. Does > > anyone know what the limitations are? > > > > Jeff > > ________O/_______ O\ From rhblake at bigfoot.com Wed Sep 15 16:21:13 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: COBAL for TRS-80 References: <199909090213.WAA18127@world.std.com> <37DEF6B4.2CBFD6B9@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <37E00DC8.4264D232@bigfoot.com> Hopefully it''s listed as COBOL and not COBAL or not too many people will locate the auction without this info. Phil Clayton wrote: > If anyone needs COBAL for TRS-80 Model-1 or Model-3 computers, > I have listed it on eBay its currently at only $1.25 plus shipping.. > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=163084785 > Phil.. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990915/d91b59eb/attachment.html From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Sep 15 16:39:59 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: from "cem14@cornell.edu" at Sep 15, 1999 05:13:45 PM Message-ID: <199909152139.PAA23702@calico.litterbox.com> I'm sure you'll get better answers from this from the incredibly knowledgable DEC folks on the list, but since I'm here and they may not be until later, I'll give a stab at it. > Today I hauled in something that I have no experience whatsoever with, > but that I'm sure most people in classiccmp own: a microvax II. > I don't know if it works, or how to hook a terminal to it to > test it. Here's what I've been able to gather: > > Cards: > > Slot description > 1 CPU? it has two interesting-looking chips: > 1: LSILIA 0485, 21-23413-01, DC379, TAC 8546 > 2: LSILIA 0486, 21-23389-01, DC379, CAC 8544 > This is connected to a DB9M in the back panel (console goes here? > what is the pinout? what is the funny-labeled rotary switch next to > it?) Dunno what the chips are, probably part of the vax chipset. That db9 is your console socket. It's a straight rs232 terminal port. The rotary switch (if memory serves) determines where in the boot cycle it goes to. In one position it stops at the >>> (bios, more or less) prompt. In another it autoboots the OS. I'm trying to remember if halt is on that switch or seperate, and I think it's separate. > > 2 nemonix memory board, holds 56 TC511000AP-10 chips > > 3 dec memory board, holds 144 41256-212141302 chips > The dec memory board appears to be a 4 meg memory board. Since the machine can address only 16 megs of ram, and since if memory serves it has a meg on the mainboard, I'm going to hazard a guess here and guess the nemonix is an 8 meg memory board, giving you 13 megs total. Not a bad amount at all. The uVax2s that were part of a cluster I once ran ran VMS 5.5 in only 16 megs, and my vaxstation 3100 does 7.2 (I think) on 8 megs. Ultrix runs nicely in 13 megs, too, although compiling gcc took all day on the ultrix box with 13 megs that I tried it on. > 4 dec board, some labels are: LPWR M94V-1 25787, and "M7516" in the > extraction handle; connected to a DB15F in the back panel Not a clue here, although dec uses db15 for video on Vaxstation 3100s, so I suspect it's a graphics card. > > 5 dec board, (disk controller?), reads M7555 in the extraction handle, > connected to what seems to be an older RLL hard drive > > > Hard drive: RD53-A rev A > Yup. RD53 is an RLL 40 meg, I think. Not very reliable in my experience. Somewhere on the system is probably a tk50 tape drive, too. Slow and not very high density per cartrige, but they work. > label in the back panel: > > Model: 630QB-A2 > > product variation: changed from 630QB-A2 to DH630Q4E2 by WFD. > > > So what exactly is this beast and how can I test if it works? > > Best regards, > > Carlos. Any AUI ports in the back of the machine? Might be handy to know what, if any, ethernet it's got. It'll become important if you want to run VMS on it. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 15 16:47:11 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <19990915205827.13231.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 15 Sep 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > Don Maslin wrote about the Central Point cards: > > First off, it is not a controller, per se, but rather a bridge adapter > > that goes between the ISA FDC and the floppy drive and enhances the FDC's > > native capabilities. > > No, it doesn't enhance the native FDC in any way; rather it bypasses most of > it. It really is a separate "controller", using that term loosely. It allows > the PC to read and write raw channel data, bypassing the native FDC's FM & MFM > encoder and decoder. When using the card, the native FDC is only used to > select the drive and seek to the desired track. > That depends on what the meaning of 'is' is :) - don From elvey at hal.com Wed Sep 15 16:54:17 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <19990915205441.13202.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <199909152154.OAA03676@civic.hal.com> Eric Smith wrote: > > The Scenix SX18 and SX28 parts, which are enhanced clones of the PIC16C5x > family, have a "turbo" mode that is fully pipelined, so most instructions > really do run in one clock cycle (rather than four). Also, they run at > up to 100 MHz. They would be much more suitable for implementing a > floppy disk controller. Hi I don't see why one couldn't also go with one of the general purpose DSP chips. These make fine high speed embedded controllers. There is even a 218x version by Analog Devices that is designed to do DMA transfers with a host bus. Just ignore the fact that is says signal processing and just see it as processing. I would think one could make one of these do Apple decoding as well as any of the formats like FM and MFM. One could even do the M2FM used on many of the older ISIS disk. One could even make have it programmable. If anyone is interested in fiddling with this idea, I have hacked the DSP used on the Cardinal/Digicom softmodem that they sold about 4-5 years back. One could easily adapt this board to do floppy controls. Dwight From morrison at t-iii.com Wed Sep 15 17:17:26 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:21 2005 Subject: COBAL for TRS-80 Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F550@hobbit.t-iii.com> It isn't NM > -----Original Message----- > From: Russ Blakeman [SMTP:rhblake@bigfoot.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 2:21 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: COBAL for TRS-80 > > Hopefully it''s listed as COBOL and not COBAL or not too many people will > locate the auction without this info. > > Phil Clayton wrote: > > If anyone needs COBAL for TRS-80 Model-1 or Model-3 computers, > I have listed it on eBay its currently at only $1.25 plus shipping.. > > > Phil.. > > From morrison at t-iii.com Wed Sep 15 17:18:31 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F554@hobbit.t-iii.com> And what you never had sex with! NM > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Maslin [SMTP:donm@cts.com] > When using the card, the native FDC is only used to > > select the drive and seek to the desired track. > > > > That depends on what the meaning of 'is' is :) > > > - don > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Sep 15 17:36:18 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990915153055.04116a20@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> That would be your basic Microvax II all right. It is a lot of fun to run VMS or NetBSD on them. Presumably you've got one with the Floppy drives in the front since I didn't see you mention the TQK50 controller or a 1/2" cartridge tape drive. The RD53 is a bit small for a complete UNIX distribution (VMS does well though) and you can net boot it from another server if you want. If you join DECUS you can get a free license to VMS. Console connects to the DB-9 in the back, standard serial port pin-out. Plug in a terminal and fire it up to see if it can get through post. You never know, it just may boot :-) Tony Duell would have you first carefully remove all the boards and unplug all the peripherals, and then power it up and test the voltages on the power rails, then plug in probably one board (enough to "load" the supplys a bit and test again) and then re-install and reseat everything and try booting it) But I only do that level of check on really old stuff. --Chuck At 05:13 PM 9/15/99 -0400, cem14@cornell.edu wrote: > > >Today I hauled in something that I have no experience whatsoever with, >but that I'm sure most people in classiccmp own: a microvax II. >I don't know if it works, or how to hook a terminal to it to >test it. Here's what I've been able to gather: > >Cards: > >Slot description >1 CPU? it has two interesting-looking chips: > 1: LSILIA 0485, 21-23413-01, DC379, TAC 8546 > 2: LSILIA 0486, 21-23389-01, DC379, CAC 8544 > This is connected to a DB9M in the back panel (console goes here? > what is the pinout? what is the funny-labeled rotary switch next to > it?) > >2 nemonix memory board, holds 56 TC511000AP-10 chips > >3 dec memory board, holds 144 41256-212141302 chips > >4 dec board, some labels are: LPWR M94V-1 25787, and "M7516" in the > extraction handle; connected to a DB15F in the back panel > >5 dec board, (disk controller?), reads M7555 in the extraction handle, > connected to what seems to be an older RLL hard drive > > >Hard drive: RD53-A rev A > >label in the back panel: > >Model: 630QB-A2 > >product variation: changed from 630QB-A2 to DH630Q4E2 by WFD. > > >So what exactly is this beast and how can I test if it works? > >Best regards, > >Carlos. > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 15 17:26:28 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: <199909152139.PAA23702@calico.litterbox.com> from "Jim Strickland" at Sep 15, 99 03:39:59 pm Message-ID: <199909152226.PAA13347@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3169 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990915/02b163df/attachment.ksh From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Sep 15 17:31:05 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F3C3@hobbit.t-iii.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990915183105.00a372e0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that James Willing may have mentioned these words: >The offering can be found here: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160802545 > >Looks like the eBay systems are running behind (yet again) in processing >info on completed auctions. The final bid shows as $455.01 and it does >not appear that there was a reserve. Although, normally an ebay auction ends at the exact time that it's posted, either 3, 5, 7 or more days later. However, this auction ended 5 days 3 hours, 22 minutes and 52 seconds after it began... How could that be??? Just a thought, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 15 17:32:30 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <199909152154.OAA03676@civic.hal.com> (message from Dwight Elvey on Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:54:17 -0700 (PDT)) References: <199909152154.OAA03676@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <19990915223230.13874.qmail@brouhaha.com> Dwight Elvey wrote: > I don't see why one couldn't also go with one of the > general purpose DSP chips. These make fine high speed > embedded controllers. Certainly you could. The main difference is that the Scenix parts are available for $5, come in DIP packages that are easy to prototype with, and that there are a lot of cheap development tools. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 15 17:03:47 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day References: <199909152139.PAA23702@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <99091518430100.25803@vault.neurotica.com> On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: >> 1 CPU? it has two interesting-looking chips: >> 1: LSILIA 0485, 21-23413-01, DC379, TAC 8546 >> 2: LSILIA 0486, 21-23389-01, DC379, CAC 8544 >> This is connected to a DB9M in the back panel (console goes here? >> what is the pinout? what is the funny-labeled rotary switch next to >> it?) > >Dunno what the chips are, probably part of the vax chipset. That db9 is your >console socket. It's a straight rs232 terminal port. The rotary switch (if >memory serves) determines where in the boot cycle it goes to. In one position >it stops at the >>> (bios, more or less) prompt. In another it autoboots the >OS. I'm trying to remember if halt is on that switch or seperate, and I think >it's separate. It is separate...its a toggle switch next to the boot action rotary switch. The >>> business is more commonly referred to as the "rom monitor". >The dec memory board appears to be a 4 meg memory board. Since the machine can >address only 16 megs of ram, and since if memory serves it has a meg on the >mainboard, I'm going to hazard a guess here and guess the nemonix is an 8 meg >memory board, giving you 13 megs total. Not a bad amount at all. The uVax2s >that were part of a cluster I once ran ran VMS 5.5 in only 16 megs, and my >vaxstation 3100 does 7.2 (I think) on 8 megs. Ultrix runs nicely in 13 megs, >too, although compiling gcc took all day on the ultrix box with 13 megs that I >tried it on. 13mb is indeed a reasonable amount of memory for a VAX. VAXen are *very* memory efficient. On a 3100/m38 running Ultrix 3.1, I had two compiles and an emacs session running, with X, on a 16mb system...with *NO* swapping! There is 1mb of RAM on the KA630 CPU board, and the max RAM is 16mb for that CPU. If you put two 8mb boards into the system, the onboard 1mb of RAM is disabled. >> 4 dec board, some labels are: LPWR M94V-1 25787, and "M7516" in the >> extraction handle; connected to a DB15F in the back panel > >Not a clue here, although dec uses db15 for video on Vaxstation 3100s, so I >suspect it's a graphics card. M7516 is an ethernet card, otherwise known as DELQA. It is the faster of the two common Qbus ethernet cards. The DB15 connector is an AUI interface...you can get a transceiver to go to 10baseT or whatever network hardware you're running. >> 5 dec board, (disk controller?), reads M7555 in the extraction handle, >> connected to what seems to be an older RLL hard drive MFM, not RLL. The M7555 is otherwise known as the RQDX3 disk controller. A nice board. It controls up to two floppy drives (RX50 or RX33) and up to two hard drives. Here's a list of the hard drives it supports, their approximate capacities, and their original manufacturer and part number: RD50 5mb Seagate ST506 RD51 10mb Seagate ST412 RD52 35mb Quantum Q540 RD53 71mb Micropolis 1325 RD54 159mb Maxtor XT-2190 RD31 21mb Seagate ST225 RD32 42mb Seagate ST251 >> Hard drive: RD53-A rev A >> > >Yup. RD53 is an RLL 40 meg, I think. Not very reliable in my experience. 71mb. Prone to spindle motor controller failures. >Somewhere on the system is probably a tk50 tape drive, too. Slow and not >very high density per cartrige, but they work. TK50 is 95mb...not very useful for backups due to small capacity, but they were (are) commonly used as a software distribution medium. >> So what exactly is this beast and how can I test if it works? Well, get yourself an ASCII terminal and plug it into that db9. Power it up, and you should see the CPU identify itself (it's a KA630) and then you'll see a countdown. It'll take a few minutes. Each number that it prints is another part of the power-on diagnostics. If all goes well, you'll either start to boot whatever OS is on that RD53, or you'll land at a ">>>" prompt. That machine is capable of running Ultrix, VMS, or NetBSD, by the way. It's a bit slow by today's standards, but it still can be very useful, and lots of fun to run. You have an easy in-box upgrade path to the KA650 CPU (MicroVAX-III) by swapping the CPU and memory boards...makes it about three times faster and increases the addressable RAM to 64mb IIRC. Good luck, and please don't hesitate to post questions here. -Dave McGuire From pbboy at mindspring.com Wed Sep 15 17:55:23 1999 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (pbboy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay References: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F3C3@hobbit.t-iii.com> <3.0.1.32.19990915183105.00a372e0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <37E023DB.B5D7ECC5@mindspring.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that James Willing may have mentioned these words: > > >The offering can be found here: > > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160802545 > > > >Looks like the eBay systems are running behind (yet again) in processing > >info on completed auctions. The final bid shows as $455.01 and it does > >not appear that there was a reserve. > > Although, normally an ebay auction ends at the exact time that it's posted, > either 3, 5, 7 or more days later. However, this auction ended 5 days 3 > hours, 22 minutes and 52 seconds after it began... > > How could that be??? > According to ebay, the seller doesn't really need a reason to end an auction. S/He may just not want to sell the item anymore, or as someone mentioned before may have gotten a price he couldn't refuse, local or on ebay. But according to ebay he's obligated to sell to the highest bidder since he didn't cancel the bids before ending the auction early. eBay Help : Seller Guide : Manage it! : Canceling Bids and Ending Auctions Early go to the link for the information. From wsmith at gj.com Wed Sep 15 17:57:54 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay Message-ID: >>> Roger Merchberger 09/15 3:31 PM >>> Rumor has it that James Willing may have mentioned these words: >The offering can be found here: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160802545 > >Looks like the eBay systems are running behind (yet again) in processing >info on completed auctions. The final bid shows as $455.01 and it does >not appear that there was a reserve. Although, normally an ebay auction ends at the exact time that it's posted, either 3, 5, 7 or more days later. However, this auction ended 5 days 3 hours, 22 minutes and 52 seconds after it began... How could that be??? Just a thought, Roger "Merch" Merchberger ***According to eBay: "Ending Your Auction You can use this form [omitted here] if you want to end your auction early. But remember, lots of bidders wait until the very last minute to bid they're trying to avoid being outbid! So you may lose a potential buyer by ending your auction early. If you are ending the auction because you no longer wish to sell your item, you must cancel all bids on your auction before it ends. If you do not do so, you are obligated to sell to the high bidder." Wayne Smith ! ! ! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 15 17:59:17 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day References: <199909152254.QAA24009@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <99091519082302.25803@vault.neurotica.com> On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: >If it lands at the >>> prompt, try typing boot. I *think* the device name would >probably be DUA0 for that controller, but if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will >correct me. So if boot doesn't get it, try boot dua0. I think. Geez it's been >a long time since I had my hands on a microvax II. dua0 is indeed correct. >When I was a grad school sysadmin, we used a 13mb uVaxII with a pair of ESDI >disks (350 megs each, I think) as a file server for our office. Ironically >of all the vaxen I worked on at that site, that box is one of the few that's >still around, since the terminal server boots from it. :) I'm waiting and >salivating for when the University puts all those vaxen in the surplus auction >or (I hope I hope) takes me up on my offer to haul them all away for free. >They've got a 4000/500 that was brand new when I worked for them that I *want*. *drool* a 4000/500!! Now that *is* fast by today's standards. I've got a pair of 4000/400s that I adore. They are *sweet*. -Dave McGuire From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 18:17:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: from "cem14@cornell.edu" at Sep 15, 99 05:13:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1916 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990916/6a42e721/attachment.ksh From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed Sep 15 18:30:40 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: <199909152139.PAA23702@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Jim Strickland wrote: > Dunno what the chips are, probably part of the vax chipset. That db9 is your > console socket. It's a straight rs232 terminal port. The rotary switch (if > memory serves) determines where in the boot cycle it goes to. In one position > it stops at the >>> (bios, more or less) Great! I needed to know that it was standard before I plugged anything in it. > Yup. RD53 is an RLL 40 meg, I think. Not very reliable in my experience. > Somewhere on the system is probably a tk50 tape drive, too. Slow and not > very high density per cartrige, but they work. Unfortunately, there is nothing but the hard drive in the drive bays. > Any AUI ports in the back of the machine? Might be handy to know what, if any, > ethernet it's got. It'll become important if you want to run VMS on it. As a matter of fact, the DB15F does have the interlocks found in AUI's. Thanks again, Carlos. From vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com Wed Sep 15 18:26:26 1999 From: vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Congratulations! I have several of these machines, and probably have an extra users manual as well... On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 cem14@cornell.edu wrote: > > > Today I hauled in something that I have no experience whatsoever with, > but that I'm sure most people in classiccmp own: a microvax II. > I don't know if it works, or how to hook a terminal to it to > test it. Here's what I've been able to gather: > > Cards: > > Slot description > 1 CPU? it has two interesting-looking chips: > 1: LSILIA 0485, 21-23413-01, DC379, TAC 8546 > 2: LSILIA 0486, 21-23389-01, DC379, CAC 8544 > This is connected to a DB9M in the back panel (console goes here? > what is the pinout? what is the funny-labeled rotary switch next to > it?) > Yep, that is the CPU. Near the upper right corner (with the card fingers down) should be 'M7606' the dec model number for a uVAX II CPU (AKA KA630). The pinout is a bit strange: DE-9 (DEC) DB-25 (PC) 1 1 2 3 3 2 4 5 5 6 6 20 7 7 8 -\ 9 -/ (short 8 & 9) together The toggle switch controls whether the system boots on powerup, or enters the console. The three position rotary switch controls the power up mode (arrow is normal, face is language inquiry, i dunno the other one) The last one is the console baud rate. > 2 nemonix memory board, holds 56 TC511000AP-10 chips > Unknown 3rd party memory... Probably 4Mb or 8Mb > > 3 dec memory board, holds 144 41256-212141302 chips > 8Mb DEC memory board, IIRC. The maximum amount of memory you can have in a uVAX II is 16Mb, using two 8Mb memory boards. Unless it is a VAXStation II/GPX in which case the max is 12MB (or maybe 13MB)... You don't have the extra three cards to make it a GPX system. The CPU has 1MB on it, but it is disabled if there are two 8MB memory boards installed. > > 4 dec board, some labels are: LPWR M94V-1 25787, and "M7516" in the > extraction handle; connected to a DB15F in the back panel > Ethernet card, probably a DEQNA. The 15 pin connector is a (old style) AUI interface. You can get a DESTA to convert the AUI to thinwire coax, or ??? to convert to 10-base-T. > 5 dec board, (disk controller?), reads M7555 in the extraction handle, > connected to what seems to be an older RLL hard drive > Yep, disk controller (an RQDX3 to be precise)... Also can interface to floppies if you have any. > > Hard drive: RD53-A rev A > 75 or so MB MFM hard drive. Probably dead... They never were very good. > label in the back panel: > > Model: 630QB-A2 > > product variation: changed from 630QB-A2 to DH630Q4E2 by WFD. > Don't know what that means, I've got a similiar one on the machine nearest to me (I have one on each floor of my house :) > > So what exactly is this beast and how can I test if it works? > About the same horsepower as a VAX 11/780 (but doesn't handle multiple users because of a slower I/O system). It is reasonably spunky for one user. Build a cable (or use a DEC BC08 cable), plug it in to a terminal, set the proper baud rate, power it up and you should see something like: KA630-A.1 1) Dansk 7) Nederlands blah blah blah (1..11): If you choose the language of choice, you get: Performing normal systems tests. 7..6..5..4..3.. Tests completed. >>> The countdown takes a while (several minutes), then the chevron appears if you set the boot toggle switch to halt on powerup. Otherwise it will: 2..1..0 And start booting off the disk (unless it is bad)... Good luck!!! clint > Best regards, > > Carlos. > > From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed Sep 15 18:38:58 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990915153055.04116a20@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > That would be your basic Microvax II all right. > > It is a lot of fun to run VMS or NetBSD on them. I have nothing against netBSD, but I'd like to learn about VMS, so I hope the hard drive has some version of it. > Presumably you've got one with the Floppy drives in the front since I > didn't see you mention the TQK50 controller or a 1/2" cartridge tape drive. No, it has nothing but the hard drive in the front. The top bay is missing its cover, so maybe there used to be one there. > Console connects to the DB-9 in the back, standard serial port pin-out. > Plug in a terminal and fire it up to see if it can get through post. You > never know, it just may boot :-) Tony Duell would have you first carefully > remove all the boards and unplug all the peripherals, and then power it up > and test the voltages on the power rails, then plug in probably one board > (enough to "load" the supplys a bit and test again) and then re-install and > reseat everything and try booting it) But I only do that level of check on > really old stuff. The interior is somewhat dusty, but not too much. The card edges that go into the slots did not look bad in terms of oxidation; I think that they make positive contact. I wonder if power suply failures are common for this machine... and if the expected lifetime of the capacitors is long enough. Thanks for the info; I am tempted to try turning it on. Carlos. From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed Sep 15 18:54:57 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: <199909152226.PAA13347@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > The big problem is it requires a special cable, fairly easy to make if you > have the parts though. I don't happen to have the pinout handy. Hi Zane; I don't understand; Jim and Chuck said that the pin-out was standard... why do you need a special cable? > You'll want a copy of the following file. It won't help much/any for 3rd > party boards but you should find most DEC Q-Bus and Unibus boards listed. > > ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/field-guide.txt > > The good news is this is a DELQA, which is the ethernet controller still > supported under OpenVMS. Thanks for the pointer! > The RD53 is ~73Mb, normally though it's a paper weight. I've gotten 3 of > them that worked, the next day two of them didn't. DO NOT TRUST THIS DRIVE. > > Unfortunatly it doesn't sound as if this system has a TK50 drive, they're > kinda hard to miss ;^) Yes, there's nothing but the hard drive in the front. > Well, assuming the CPU card is a KA630, you've got a MicroVAX II like you > said ;^) Nice machines. I don't think you mentioned which chassis you've > got, but something tells me it might be a BA23 instead of the larger BA123. How can you tell one from the other? This has four horizontal front bays and one vertical; it is rated at 8.8A, 690W at 120V. The whole thing measures about 24" (height) x 13" (width) x 27" (depth) Carlos. From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Sep 15 19:12:45 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990915191229.00aa6220@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 05:13 PM 9/15/99 -0400, cem14@cornell.edu said something like: > > >Today I hauled in something that I have no experience whatsoever with, >but that I'm sure most people in classiccmp own: a microvax II. >I don't know if it works, or how to hook a terminal to it to >test it. Here's what I've been able to gather: Hi Carlos, from how you speak below it sure shows you do have no experience whatsoever ! But we'll help fix that problem! You've actually got a nice box (provided it still functions) that will be rather fun to learn VMS or ULTRIX upon (if it still has either of those OS's running on it). NetBSD is also available. Your homework for tonite will be to study http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/mvax_faq.html which contains much about the MVII's. Another URL which has MVII bits is: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/jmcm/www/info/info.html (aka ASUBI). I've got an MVII that I've been working on upgrading the hard disk to an RD54. I haven't had time to touch it since last winter as I've had a heap of other projects more important. But I'm salivating at the thought of getting her up and running with OpenVMS during the next winter sometime :) The other DEC friends here have already given you some other important comments and I'm sure a few more of us will chime in. Have fun with it! Incidentally, for you other DEC mavens, I tried reviewing the VAXArchive at http://vaxarchive.ml.org/ but it seems to be either relocated or not available anymore. I felt it was a good VAX info resource. "Unable to find the server vaxarchive.ml.org" is the message thrown back which suggests it's MIA. Could anyone confirm? Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Sep 15 19:29:53 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: References: <199909152226.PAA13347@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990915172436.04111c90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 07:54 PM 9/15/99 -0400, Carlos wrote: >Hi Zane; I don't understand; Jim and Chuck said that the pin-out was >standard... why do you need a special cable? I just plugged a DB9 to DB25 cable into it and the back of my FreeBSD box and ran tip to it. Worked fine. >> Unfortunatly it doesn't sound as if this system has a TK50 drive, they're >> kinda hard to miss ;^) > >Yes, there's nothing but the hard drive in the front. The "empty slot" with no cover is where the RX50 dual floppy goes. You can find them around as they are pretty common. You'll need one of the black "skids" for them as well. The funky card in the end of the card cage that cables the hard drive has cables that go to the floppy as well. If your cabinet is wide, sits on the floor, and has wheels, its a BA123 "world box" if it is about 6" tall, 19" wide and deep, it is a BA23 rack mount box. Thanks to DEC's re-use of parts you can swap out the CPU in these boxes to create a micro-PDP system (11/73 etc). Power supplies are ok for reliability, but too heavy to ship. Lately a lot of BA123's seem to be falling out of the sky around here. >How can you tell one from the other? This has four horizontal front bays >and one vertical; it is rated at 8.8A, 690W at 120V. The whole thing >measures about 24" (height) x 13" (width) x 27" (depth) Actually the part number should have told me it was a BA123 but your description confirms it. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 15 19:07:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: from "cem14@cornell.edu" at Sep 15, 99 07:30:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 548 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990916/8f4479ea/attachment.ksh From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed Sep 15 19:25:36 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > The pinout is a bit strange: > > DE-9 (DEC) DB-25 (PC) > 1 1 > 2 3 > 3 2 > 4 5 > 5 6 > 6 20 > 7 7 > 8 -\ > 9 -/ (short 8 & 9) together Great! now all I have to do is solder. > The three position rotary switch controls the power up mode > (arrow is normal, face is language inquiry, i dunno the other one) Ok, so nothing bad would happen by choosing the wrong one. This switch really was a big question mark for me. > The maximum amount of memory you can have in a uVAX II is 16Mb, using > two 8Mb memory boards. Unless it is a VAXStation II/GPX in which case > the max is 12MB (or maybe 13MB)... You don't have the extra three cards > to make it a GPX system. Apparently, there used to be other cards in here; there are four small PC's fixed in the inside of the back panel, each holding four DB25M connectors, but the ribbon cables coming out of them are not connected to anything... > 75 or so MB MFM hard drive. Probably dead... They never were very > good. hmm, everyone has expressed the same opinion about the drive. Tony at least said that it was fixable, what he did not say was whether he was the only one who could possibly fix them :-) Thanks for all the info! Carlos. From cem14 at cornell.edu Wed Sep 15 19:34:14 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Sep 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, an RS232 console port. The trap is that it is not the same pinout as the > PC/AT DE-9 serial ports. I can't remember the pinout, but it shouldn't be > that hard to find ground, TxD and RxD Thanks Tony. Clint has already provided me with the pinout. I'll have to wait until tomorrow to get the connectors, though. > > 2 nemonix memory board, holds 56 TC511000AP-10 chips > > IIRC, each of thos chips is 1Mbit. So that would appear to be 7Mbytes > with no parity or error correction at all (????). Seems a little strange. > Even though there is 1 Mbyte on the CPU board, so 7Mbytes could be > possible. Only problem is, surely the memory needs to be 32 bits wide (so > I would have expected a multiple of 32 or 36 (parity on each byte) here). You're right, as always Tony! they are in fact 72 chips. I counted 8 groups of 9 chips, and by the time I got to they keyboard with all that info to type, I mangled the numbers in my mind. > > 3 dec memory board, holds 144 41256-212141302 chips > > DEC 4Mbyte memory board, I think. 16 groups of nine in this case. > Much more likely to be MFM than RLL. IIRC that board handles MFM hard > drives and RX50 floppy drives. > Yes an MFM hard disk -- Micropolis 1300-something IIRC. Well known for > developing mechanical problems which may be fixable... Which if the drives that Dave mentioned is considered reliable? (repeated below) RD50 5mb Seagate ST506 RD51 10mb Seagate ST412 RD52 35mb Quantum Q540 RD53 71mb Micropolis 1325 RD54 159mb Maxtor XT-2190 RD31 21mb Seagate ST225 RD32 42mb Seagate ST251 Carlos. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 15 20:10:26 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day References: Message-ID: <99091521160006.25803@vault.neurotica.com> On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, cem14@cornell.edu wrote: >How can you tell one from the other? This has four horizontal front bays >and one vertical; it is rated at 8.8A, 690W at 120V. The whole thing >measures about 24" (height) x 13" (width) x 27" (depth) That's a BA123, otherwise known as a "world box". VERY nice chassis; I'm sure I'm not the only one on the list who's jealous! >The interior is somewhat dusty, but not too much. The card edges that go >into the slots did not look bad in terms of oxidation; I think that they >make positive contact. I wonder if power suply failures are common >for this machine... and if the expected lifetime of the capacitors is >long enough. The power supplies in those boxes are very robust...failures are not common at all. I'm willing to bet that it'll work just fine. A case in point: I have a BA123 containing a MicroVAX-II system that I dragged out of a mud puddle. It had been sitting there for roughly four months. I hosed it down, then let it sit inside for a week over an air conditioning vent. The tape drive was shot, but everything else was just fine, and the system has been running for over a year with no problems. VERY solid hardware. >I have nothing against netBSD, but I'd like to learn about VMS, >so I hope the hard drive has some version of it. I'd suggest becoming a DECUS member (see http://www.decus.org), then once you have a DECUS number you can get what's known as a "VMS Hobbyist License" from http://www.montagar.com. Then you can install VMS, all the way up to the current v7.2. Feel free to email me privately if you have any questions about this. It's easy and fun! -Dave McGuire From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 15 20:18:00 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day References: Message-ID: <99091521193907.25803@vault.neurotica.com> On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, cem14@cornell.edu wrote: >Which if the drives that Dave mentioned is considered reliable? >(repeated below) > > RD50 5mb Seagate ST506 > RD51 10mb Seagate ST412 > RD52 35mb Quantum Q540 > RD53 71mb Micropolis 1325 > RD54 159mb Maxtor XT-2190 > RD31 21mb Seagate ST225 > RD32 42mb Seagate ST251 I'd say the RD52 is probably the *most* reliable, but it's pretty small. I use them a lot on PDP11 systems where OSs tend to be much more compact. I've had reasonably good luck with RD54s, though they're a bit harder to find. You'll be able to find one of those if you hunt around a bit. -Dave McGuire From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 15 20:38:31 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: References: <199909152226.PAA13347@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >> Well, assuming the CPU card is a KA630, you've got a MicroVAX II like you >> said ;^) Nice machines. I don't think you mentioned which chassis you've >> got, but something tells me it might be a BA23 instead of the larger BA123. > >How can you tell one from the other? This has four horizontal front bays >and one vertical; it is rated at 8.8A, 690W at 120V. The whole thing >measures about 24" (height) x 13" (width) x 27" (depth) That's the BA123, they're my favorite DEC Q-Bus Chassis! Lots of room for expansion, and easy to get at stuff. Though as I learned a week and a half ago when I got the side panel I was missing the side panels make a good puzzle :^) The system probably had a TK50 at one point in that empty bay you mentioned. >Which if the drives that Dave mentioned is considered reliable? >(repeated below) > > RD50 5mb Seagate ST506 > RD51 10mb Seagate ST412 > RD52 35mb Quantum Q540 > RD53 71mb Micropolis 1325 > RD54 159mb Maxtor XT-2190 > RD31 21mb Seagate ST225 > RD32 42mb Seagate ST251 Well, the RD50-52 and RD31/32 are really to small to be of use, thankfully the RD54 seems to be a fairly good drive. I personally believe that the best answer is to get a 3rd party ESDI controller or get really lucky and get a SCSI controller (you don't want to know what they cost). BTW, I liked your comments about OpenVMS and NetBSD. I'm a firm believer of running VMS on these systems (though I've got to admit I'm thinking of installing Ultrix). Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 15 21:03:06 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: <99091521193907.25803@vault.neurotica.com> References: Message-ID: >On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, cem14@cornell.edu wrote: >>Which if the drives that Dave mentioned is considered reliable? >>(repeated below) >> >> RD50 5mb Seagate ST506 >> RD51 10mb Seagate ST412 >> RD52 35mb Quantum Q540 >> RD53 71mb Micropolis 1325 >> RD54 159mb Maxtor XT-2190 >> RD31 21mb Seagate ST225 >> RD32 42mb Seagate ST251 > > I'd say the RD52 is probably the *most* reliable, but it's pretty small. I >use them a lot on PDP11 systems where OSs tend to be much more compact. I've >had reasonably good luck with RD54s, though they're a bit harder to find. >You'll be able to find one of those if you hunt around a bit. > > -Dave McGuire Actually if going with MFM drives probably the best thing you can do is to get a VAXstation 2000 (aka Hard Drive Formatter), and hunt up Quantum Q540's and Maxtor XT-2190's at your local junk dealers, swap meets and scrappers. I still cringe when I think of the one local scrapper telling me he'd scrapped and ENTIRE crate of UNUSED RD54's :^( Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From philclayton at mindspring.com Wed Sep 15 21:49:00 1999 From: philclayton at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: COBAL for TRS-80 References: <199909090213.WAA18127@world.std.com> <37DEF6B4.2CBFD6B9@mindspring.com> <37E00DC8.4264D232@bigfoot.com> Message-ID: <37E05A9C.CCDF77B3@mindspring.com> Oh Oh!! Big Time Typo.. All I can hope for now is that someone will find the COBOL by the rest of the listing TRS-80 Model-1 or Model-3.. Thanks for telling me about the typo.. Perhaps someone here may want it, as its still just $1.25.. Phil... Russ Blakeman wrote: > Hopefully it''s listed as COBOL and not COBAL or not too many people > will locate the auction without this info. > > Phil Clayton wrote: > >> If anyone needs COBAL for TRS-80 Model-1 or Model-3 computers, >> I have listed it on eBay its currently at only $1.25 plus shipping.. >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=163084785 >> Phil.. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990915/180f7796/attachment.html From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Sep 15 22:00:52 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: <199909160300.XAA26088@world.std.com> <> really do run in one clock cycle (rather than four). Also, they run at <> up to 100 MHz. They would be much more suitable for implementing a <> floppy disk controller. Why not just toss a cray XMP against the problem. Seriously, in 1979ish apple managed to do it with a little (very little) at something less than 2mhz... why would a PIC at a gazillion MHz be the hot ticket when the real need is enough ram to store all them bits! When you consider the data rate for DD 8" is 500kBits/sec the bandwidth is not that bad. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Sep 15 22:01:06 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day Message-ID: <199909160301.XAA26188@world.std.com> <> 1 CPU? it has two interesting-looking chips: <> 1: LSILIA 0485, 21-23413-01, DC379, TAC 8546 <> 2: LSILIA 0486, 21-23389-01, DC379, CAC 8544 < what is the pinout? what is the funny-labeled rotary switch next to <> it?) Determins if the machine will stay in diagnostic mode, Inquire what language to use (13 possible) and run straight through to trying to boot. If there is a boot device it will try it, if not you get an error message and the >>> prompt. <> 3 dec memory board, holds 144 41256-212141302 chips < 4 dec board, some labels are: LPWR M94V-1 25787, and "M7516" in the <> extraction handle; connected to a DB15F in the back panel < 5 dec board, (disk controller?), reads M7555 in the extraction handle <> connected to what seems to be an older RLL hard drive < Does anyone know the power requirement on the RFxx series drives? I would like to mount one in a BA123 and the RFxx connector is a 5 pin power connector (which I have an extra of but I don't want to screw up!) Also if you run these things without the 10 pin header plugged in, do you need to jumper any of the pins? --Chuck From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Sep 15 22:01:17 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day Message-ID: <199909160301.XAA26249@world.std.com> <> Yup. RD53 is an RLL 40 meg, I think. Not very reliable in my experience <> Somewhere on the system is probably a tk50 tape drive, too. Slow and not <> very high density per cartrige, but they work. BZZT! RD53 is MFM 70mb (100mb if RLL) and only old ones are unreliable... then again a new one is far from likely. They were reliable but the typical operational life was about 4 years (100% powered on). After that they tended to decay. For that time (late 80s) 35,000 power on hours was pretty good though not exceptional. the problem is the last ones were manufactured some 8 or more years ago! Good for there time but very old and small. < RD50 5mb Seagate ST506 < RD51 10mb Seagate ST412 Excellent drive for a 30mb full height, near indestructable. < RD52 35mb Quantum Q540 Tended to get cranky when over 4-5 years old, most all are. < RD53 71mb Micropolis 1325 Good find, 159mb and reliable. < RD54 159mb Maxtor XT-2190 Excellent 20mb drive. < RD31 21mb Seagate ST225 Peice of garbage, runs hot and has spindle problems. < RD32 42mb Seagate ST251 Experience, I have them all and have used them all. Allison From macierno at hotmail.com Wed Sep 15 22:08:29 1999 From: macierno at hotmail.com (mark acierno) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: vaxstation 4000 terminal/keyboard/mouse Message-ID: <19990916030829.68554.qmail@hotmail.com> Does anyone know where I can get a vaxstation compatable terminal, keyboard, and mouse???? thanx mark acierno ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From jritorto at nut.net Wed Sep 15 22:19:10 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: <199909160301.XAA26332@world.std.com> Message-ID: I have an ST-251 and an ST-251-1. The -1 had a few more badblocks, but no heat damage on the PBC where the normal 251 had it. Both are still working but they seem slower than the RD54 to me... jake On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: [snip] > Peice of garbage, runs hot and has spindle problems. > < RD32 42mb Seagate ST251 > > Experience, I have them all and have used them all. From jritorto at nut.net Wed Sep 15 22:30:50 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: firefox In-Reply-To: <199909160301.XAA26332@world.std.com> Message-ID: I have a VaxStation 3520 in the garage that seems to boot. I gather it's a dual-processor model and it has SCSI, RGB, AUI, and TK70, all intact and able to boot. Problem is I have no KB, no mouse, and no head for it. (I had hooked it up to a monitor that had the right cables but the wrong sync stuff, so I had like four shaking images of the boot stuff.) Anyone know of a good cheap place to gather the junque I need to get this thing running right (and part numbers, etc)? It seems like a really nice box except for the BI bus (it has Qbus too!), but I guess that's fine if I stick with OpenVMS. ((Which version?)) TIA jake From jritorto at nut.net Wed Sep 15 22:31:55 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: vaxstation 4000 terminal/keyboard/mouse In-Reply-To: <19990916030829.68554.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: wow, all this talk about VAXen gets us partial system owners all fired up... :) On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, mark acierno wrote: > Does anyone know where I can get a vaxstation compatable terminal, keyboard, > and mouse???? > > > thanx > > mark acierno > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From danburrows at mindspring.com Wed Sep 15 23:08:21 1999 From: danburrows at mindspring.com (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: firefox Message-ID: <00d201befff9$95e5d680$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> If you would include minor details like what the M# of the graphics board I may be able to help. There were a few different ones used over the years. Complete configurations can even be more helpful. It may be a day or 2 before I can respond depending on what Floyd decides to do to me. I have been getting the heavy rains most of the day and now the wind has kicked up. Thank heavens for UPS's for the power flickers. Dan >I have a VaxStation 3520 in the garage that seems to boot. I gather it's >a dual-processor model and it has SCSI, RGB, AUI, and TK70, all intact and >able to boot. Problem is I have no KB, no mouse, and no head for it. (I >had hooked it up to a monitor that had the right cables but the wrong sync >stuff, so I had like four shaking images of the boot stuff.) Anyone know >of a good cheap place to gather the junque I need to get this thing >running right (and part numbers, etc)? It seems like a really nice box >except for the BI bus (it has Qbus too!), but I guess that's fine if I >stick with OpenVMS. ((Which version?)) > >TIA > >jake From jritorto at nut.net Wed Sep 15 23:24:07 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Keeping pdp11s softwarily viable? In-Reply-To: <00d201befff9$95e5d680$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: Can't do it all myself, but I'd like to see a port of a minimal version of lynx to 2.11BSD unix. Anyone care to comment on how (im)possible this is and what it would require? [[I'm tired of telnetting to my FreeBSD box everytime I want to mess with the web.]] While we're on it, what about emacs? That shouldn't be so bad since there's already a uEMACS for RSX. jake From hansp at digiweb.com Wed Sep 15 23:28:03 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay References: <19990915144546Z13885-22076+116@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> <4.1.19990915155340.00a9a830@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <37E071D3.916E1A58@digiweb.com> Christian Fandt wrote: > I couldn't even find it in the closed or "ended auction" area. Did he or > somebody completely remove all reference to the auction? Can that be done? Hmm, interesting. I keep bookmarks of items I might be interested in and managed to access it that way. It's in the database, but not searchable. The end date/time of the auction was changed and so it was marked closed. I haven't sold anything on eBay, can anyone here who does sell tell us if the auction end can be changed? _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 15 23:29:34 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: firefox In-Reply-To: References: <199909160301.XAA26332@world.std.com> Message-ID: >running right (and part numbers, etc)? It seems like a really nice box >except for the BI bus (it has Qbus too!), but I guess that's fine if I >stick with OpenVMS. ((Which version?)) The system is M-Bus, as for the version of VMS, I think it's still supported, so probably anything from 5.5 up will probably work. Best answer check the 7.2 SPD, which I unfortunatly don't have bookmarked. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 15 23:34:19 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Keeping pdp11s softwarily viable? In-Reply-To: References: <00d201befff9$95e5d680$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: > Can't do it all myself, but I'd like to see a port of a minimal >version of lynx to 2.11BSD unix. Anyone care to comment on how >(im)possible this is and what it would require? [[I'm tired of telnetting >to my FreeBSD box everytime I want to mess with the web.]] While we're on >it, what about emacs? That shouldn't be so bad since there's already a >uEMACS for RSX. > >jake On a related note, does anyone have a browser for RT-11? I've got Telnet and FTP running, but would love to add web access :^) Guess I really need to take a look at the source for lynx. As for EMACS, you want to run "Eight Megs And Constanstantly Swapping" on a PDP-11? Even a vi hater like myself would probably stick to vi on 2.11BSD! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From hansp at digiweb.com Wed Sep 15 23:38:30 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay References: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C1F3C3@hobbit.t-iii.com> <3.0.1.32.19990915183105.00a372e0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <37E07446.FFCD651A@digiweb.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > >The offering can be found here: > > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160802545 > > > >Looks like the eBay systems are running behind (yet again) in processing > >info on completed auctions. The final bid shows as $455.01 and it does > >not appear that there was a reserve. > > Although, normally an ebay auction ends at the exact time that it's posted, > either 3, 5, 7 or more days later. However, this auction ended 5 days 3 > hours, 22 minutes and 52 seconds after it began... > > How could that be??? The finish time was definitely changed. I keep my list of interesting items in end time order and this finished 2 days before it was supposed to. Or maybe 1 day 20 hrs 37 min and 8sec earlier? _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 15 23:53:58 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: vaxstation 4000 terminal/keyboard/mouse In-Reply-To: <19990916030829.68554.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: >Does anyone know where I can get a vaxstation compatable terminal, keyboard, >and mouse???? Are you asking about where to get a complete VAXstation 4000 setup; CPU, monitor, keyboard, and mouse. Or are you asking where to get a monitor, keyboard, and mouse for a VAXstation 4000 that you already have? If you've already got it, what model and what graphics card? If not, no, but I've seen lots of VS4000VLC's on ePay. Now my question, does anyone know where I can get just enough RAM to test out a VAXstation 4000/90 cheaply? I want to add a bunch of RAM and drives to it, but first want to be sure it works without paying the big $$$'s for a decent amount of RAM! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 23:57:36 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day Message-ID: <19990916045736.11999.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Christian Fandt wrote: > Incidentally, for you other DEC mavens, I tried reviewing the VAXArchive at > http://vaxarchive.ml.org/ but it seems to be either relocated or not > available anymore. I felt it was a good VAX info resource. "Unable to find > the server vaxarchive.ml.org" is the message thrown back which suggests > it's MIA. Could anyone confirm? The entire ml.org domain is defunct. I used to be antarctica.ml.org. -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Sep 16 00:46:29 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: firefox In-Reply-To: References: <199909160301.XAA26332@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990915224629.009a4dc0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 23:30 15-09-1999 -0400, you wrote: >running right (and part numbers, etc)? It seems like a really nice box >except for the BI bus (it has Qbus too!), but I guess that's fine if I >stick with OpenVMS. ((Which version?)) Actually, NetBSD runs pretty darn good on those... www.netbsd.org. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 16 02:38:47 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <199909160300.XAA26088@world.std.com> (message from Allison J Parent on Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:00:52 -0400 (EDT)) References: <199909160300.XAA26088@world.std.com> Message-ID: <19990916073847.16316.qmail@brouhaha.com> I wrote about using a 100 MHz Scenix SX microcontroller to act as a disk controller for Apple ][-format diskettes. Allison J Parent wrote: > Why not just toss a cray XMP against the problem. Seriously, in 1979ish > apple managed to do it with a little (very little) at something less than > 2mhz... why would a PIC at a gazillion MHz be the hot ticket when the real > need is enough ram to store all them bits! Because the Scenix can do it all in software, and costs less than the clever seven-chip Apple solution. And the Scenix won't be limited to only Apple ][ format. If you prefer to build the seven-chip TTL solution, go for it. Different strokes for different folks. Of course, that solution requires a processor with completely predictable execution times, which will make it very hard to do with any modern PC. Unless you want to stick a microprocessor (say, a 6502) on the controller as well, in which case you also need to add memory, etc., and it's no longer a clever seven-chip solution; now it's perhaps a ten-chip solution. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 16 02:43:11 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: firefox In-Reply-To: (message from Jacob Ritorto on Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:30:50 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <19990916074311.16342.qmail@brouhaha.com> > I have a VaxStation 3520 in the garage that seems to boot. I gather it's ... > It seems like a really nice box I've got one. It's a marginally OK box. > except for the BI bus It's not BI. It's a special bus used only by the Firefox machines (3520 and 3540). Even though the box looks similar on the outside, it's not at all like a 3500 on the inside. > (it has Qbus too!), There were two different Q-bus adapters that could be used in it, and both were crocks for different reasons. Apparently the TK50 controller was just about the only NPG Q-bus card that worked reliably in the thing. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 16 02:44:20 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: firefox In-Reply-To: <00d201befff9$95e5d680$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> (danburrows@mindspring.com) References: <00d201befff9$95e5d680$0c0a0a0a@tower166.office> Message-ID: <19990916074420.16356.qmail@brouhaha.com> > If you would include minor details like what the M# of the graphics board > I may be able to help. There were a few different ones used over the years. Not on the 3520 and 3540, there weren't. You had a choice of how many bit planes, but the only graphics boards that would work were the ones that came with it. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 16 02:47:28 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: firefox In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990915224629.009a4dc0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> (message from Bruce Lane on Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:46:29 -0700) References: <199909160301.XAA26332@world.std.com> <3.0.5.32.19990915224629.009a4dc0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <19990916074728.16388.qmail@brouhaha.com> Bruce Lane writes about software for the VAXstation 3520/3540: > Actually, NetBSD runs pretty darn good on those... Not! From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Sep 16 07:39:24 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I have an ST-251 and an ST-251-1. The -1 had a few more badblocks, but no > heat damage on the PBC where the normal 251 had it. Both are still > working but they seem slower than the RD54 to me... The -1 is no better. Considering they are a stepper they would be slower than the RD52,53,54s that have both more heads and voice coil positioner. About all the st251 has in it's favor is it's half height. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Sep 16 07:45:24 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: firefox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > stuff, so I had like four shaking images of the boot stuff.) Anyone know > of a good cheap place to gather the junque I need to get this thing > running right (and part numbers, etc)? It seems like a really nice box No idea. > except for the BI bus (it has Qbus too!), but I guess that's fine if I > stick with OpenVMS. ((Which version?)) Any version after V5.4 will run that. Since 7.2 is available it's the one to get. Nice box. Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Sep 16 08:06:47 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Keeping pdp11s softwarily viable? Message-ID: <990916090647.20200676@trailing-edge.com> >> Can't do it all myself, but I'd like to see a port of a minimal >>version of lynx to 2.11BSD unix. Anyone care to comment on how >>(im)possible this is and what it would require? [[I'm tired of telnetting >>to my FreeBSD box everytime I want to mess with the web.]] While we're on >>it, what about emacs? That shouldn't be so bad since there's already a >>uEMACS for RSX. >> >>jake >On a related note, does anyone have a browser for RT-11? I've got Telnet >and FTP running, but would love to add web access :^) If anything was done for either 2.11 or RT-11, it'd have to be *very* scaled down from the full lynx. The CERN line-mode browser does fit on an -11. Of course, you can always just telnet to port 80. >Guess I really need to take a look at the source for lynx. It's huge, and it expects enormous contiguous amounts of memory to be available for temporary use. Not a realistic way to do things in the PDP-11's 16-bit memory space. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From amichael at nortelnetworks.com Thu Sep 16 08:43:40 1999 From: amichael at nortelnetworks.com (Arlen Michaels) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:22 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: <13E2EF604DE5D111B2E50000F80824E8024CDBDF@zwdld001.ca.nortel.com> > -----Original Message----- > > Don Maslin wrote about the Central Point cards: > > First off, it is not a controller, per se, but rather a bridge adapter > > that goes between the ISA FDC and the floppy drive and enhances the > FDC's > > native capabilities. > Along similar lines, can anyone explain how to use a Manzana Mux Card? I picked one up recently, recalling it was supposed to let you expand the number of pc internal floppies from two to four. If I'm not mistaken, it installs as a bridge card (like the Central Point Option card) between the standard controller and the drives. Does anyone know how to configure it? It's got 3 jumper block areas. It looks like one sets up the port address, but the others are a mystery. Also I'm wondering if it needs a special software driver or something. Now, the bonus question: can the Manzana card be used in combination with the Central Point card to build a multi-format universal copy machine with a wild mix of drive types? What would the bridge cabling sequence be in this case? -- Arlen Michaels amichael@nortelnetworks.com Nortel Networks, Ottawa, Canada From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 09:37:55 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Find of the day Message-ID: <19990916143755.22699.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> --- allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > About all the st251 has in it's favor is it's half height. That and, in my experience, easier to find. Seagate shipped wads of them for use in early AT's. I don't love them either (slow and hot), but I do have several more of them than any other MFM drive besides the Micropolis 1325. -ethan === Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd@iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Sep 16 10:23:30 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: <19990916143755.22699.rocketmail@web607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > That and, in my experience, easier to find. Seagate shipped wads of them > for use in early AT's. I don't love them either (slow and hot), but I do > have several more of them than any other MFM drive besides the Micropolis 1325. I have a bunch of them, I remove them from use if I get them and replace with D540s or whatever. It's a before they fail action So I do have a few that are actually good with few if any bad blocks. Allison From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Thu Sep 16 10:51:17 1999 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: firefox Message-ID: <01JG184TXA0YASB87Z@cc.usu.edu> >I have a VaxStation 3520 in the garage that seems to boot. If you either yank the graphics cards or hold the halt button in during reset it'll use the MMJ as a serial console. >It seems like a really nice box >except for the BI bus That's M-Bus, not VAXBI. >(it has Qbus too!), If you have the FTAM (Firefox Tape Adapter Module), you can only use QBus devices that can tolerate upwards of 20 microseconds bus latency (I have a specially modified RQDX3 somewhere...). If you have the FQAM (Firefox QBus Adapter Module, designed after it became apparent that FTAM was in trouble) the latencies are acceptable but the QBus throughput is only about 250KB/s. Welcome to the magic of write-back cache. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From marvin at rain.org Thu Sep 16 10:59:16 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Apple Mockingboard References: <13E2EF604DE5D111B2E50000F80824E8024CDBDF@zwdld001.ca.nortel.com> Message-ID: <37E113D4.33C37737@rain.org> I just bought an Apple IIe system with a Mockingboard in it. Is this a board that was at all significant in the Apple world? It came with no documentation although there are three original disks that look like they came from Mockingboard. From marvin at rain.org Thu Sep 16 11:05:54 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Disk Drives, was Re: Find of the day References: Message-ID: <37E11562.EBF4435D@rain.org> allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > > > I have an ST-251 and an ST-251-1. The -1 had a few more badblocks, but no > > heat damage on the PBC where the normal 251 had it. Both are still > > working but they seem slower than the RD54 to me... > > The -1 is no better. Considering they are a stepper they would be slower > than the RD52,53,54s that have both more heads and voice coil positioner. I don't have any idea about the drives used in a DEC environment, but in the IBM PC world, the best program I have found to date is Spinrite for doing a check of the HD media. Having used Nortons NDD, that joke of a program called Scandisk, and a couple of others, Spinrite is the only one that has never caused more problems than it solved. I just ran Scandisk on a Win98 drive that was beginning to fail resulting in the drive being unreadable. Ah, the fun of working with computers! From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Sep 16 13:06:57 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Apple Mockingboard In-Reply-To: <37E113D4.33C37737@rain.org> Message-ID: <199909161607.SAA15459@horus.mch.sni.de> > I just bought an Apple IIe system with a Mockingboard in it. Is this a board > that was at all significant in the Apple world? It came with no > documentation although there are three original disks that look like they > came from Mockingboard. Had Gettysburg any significance for the civil war ? THE Mockinboard was a milestone into whats today calld multimedia. Well sort of - at least it was a well recogniced product. An A2 collection without is like skiping The Mill or the SSC. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From jpero at cgocable.net Wed Sep 15 19:53:09 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Disk Drives, was Re: Find of the day In-Reply-To: <37E11562.EBF4435D@rain.org> Message-ID: <199909161653.MAA21601@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:05:54 -0700 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Marvin > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Disk Drives, was Re: Find of the day > > > allisonp@world.std.com wrote: > > > > The -1 is no better. Considering they are a stepper they would be slower > > than the RD52,53,54s that have both more heads and voice coil positioner. Snip! ST251 is 60ms and ST251-1 is 40ms, I would rather take ST251 and cool it properly like any HDs. If one is found without new defect and in good order if ever. But honestly, I don't want ST251 series, I would lie to the machine with a different RDxx that has specs that matches or excceeds a subsitute HD specs. Voice coil is best for that responsive status. I find all HDs keep their cool in negative pressure air and let air leak in through drive bezel opening with hd bezel taken off. Looks ugly but works beauiful and that is exactly what done on my 3 3.5" HD in one machine one of 3 contains 7200rpm hd in it. All cool like room temps. Wizard From marvin at rain.org Thu Sep 16 11:55:52 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay References: <19990915144546Z13885-22076+116@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> <4.1.19990915155340.00a9a830@206.231.8.2> <37E071D3.916E1A58@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <37E12118.4107F0C5@rain.org> Hans B Pufal wrote: > > Christian Fandt wrote: > > > I couldn't even find it in the closed or "ended auction" area. Did he or > > somebody completely remove all reference to the auction? Can that be done? > > Hmm, interesting. I keep bookmarks of items I might be interested in and > managed to access it that way. It's in the database, but not searchable. > The end date/time of the auction was changed and so it was marked > closed. > > I haven't sold anything on eBay, can anyone here who does sell tell us > if the auction end can be changed? The seller has the option of closing the auction down earlier than the posted time. I know of no way though for the seller to extend the closing time. Ebay does extend auctions 24 hours in the case of a hard outage on their part. From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Thu Sep 16 12:49:39 1999 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Unusual systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Seek and ye shall find - the story of the latest PDP-9 discovery. Message-ID: <199909161749.NAA00606@phantom.golden.net> Hope you consider this message an encouragement. It is directed to those are are new to the hobby or those of you who are disappointed because you still haven't found that special something even though you have spent much time trying to find it. Have we dried up sources of old computers? Hardly. Can you still hope to find that missing system/ software/manual/etc.? Indeed. The proof I offer is the PDP-9 that Merle Pierce, of the Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc., recently told us about. There weren't many of them to start with and it is 30 years old so what are the chances there would still be one working everyday in a building in Philadelphia. Pretty low, but still, against the odds it is now safe for another 130+ years in the museum's collection. A while back a the fellow from the company in Philadelphia that used the 9 contacted me. He came to me because his 9 wasn't working and upon doing a search of the web he discovered I had a reference to PDP-9s since I used to have one. He asked me for help in fixing his, but I was no help. I did mention how much I'd like to have another one and that was end of our correspondence. About 7 weeks ago he contacted me out of the blue and offered the 9 and other gear if I would come and pick it up. Tempting. The customs and other regulatory hassles made the trip impossible so I offered the gear to Merle and the rest is history. Seek and ye shall find. Really, lots and lots of wonderful old small and big computers are waiting to be discovered. Yours in good faith. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf * Unusual systems * www.unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 * EST/EDT GMT - 5 Collector - Commercial Mainframes & Minicomputers from the 50s, 60s, & 70s and control panels and consoles. Author & Publisher - A Guide to Collecting Computers & Computer Collectibles * ISBN 0-9684244-0-6 . From morrison at t-iii.com Thu Sep 16 12:57:27 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Seek and ye shall find - the story of the latest PDP-9 discov ery. Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C4C90C@hobbit.t-iii.com> A few years ago I came across a working IBM card punch, which reminded me of my days at varsity! But where could I store it in a tiny apartment? Ah well, Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: kstumpf@unusual.on.ca [SMTP:kstumpf@unusual.on.ca] > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 10:50 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Seek and ye shall find - the story of the latest PDP-9 > discovery. > ........... > The proof I offer is the PDP-9 that Merle Pierce, of the > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc., recently > told us about. > > There weren't many of them to start with and it is > 30 years old so what are the chances there would > still be one working everyday in a building in > Philadelphia. Pretty low, but still, against the odds > it is now safe for another 130+ years in the museum's > collection. > ........... From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Sep 16 12:58:45 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Apple Mockingboard Message-ID: <990916135845.202008b5@trailing-edge.com> >I just bought an Apple IIe system with a Mockingboard in it. Is this a board >that was at all significant in the Apple world? It came with no >documentation although there are three original disks that look like they >came from Mockingboard. The Mockingboard had substantial support from many Apple video games of the mid-80's onward. Couple the Mockingboard with Steve Ciarcia's voice synthensizer (both circa early 80's) and you've got abilities beyond what was available for PC-clones until just a few years ago. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Sep 16 13:22:38 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: IBM XT looking for a good home in L.A. area Message-ID: Rob Gregory contacted me saying he has an almost mint-condition IBM PC-XT he wants to go to a good home or else he chucks it. He's also got some printers he wants to throw into the deal, but that's for you to decide. His phone number is 310/829.5903. Please contact him directly of course. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 08/17/99] From marvin at rain.org Thu Sep 16 13:31:42 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Seek and ye shall find - the story of the latest PDP-9 discovery. References: <199909161749.NAA00606@phantom.golden.net> Message-ID: <37E1378E.22EF21C9@rain.org> Unusual systems wrote: > > Hope you consider this message an encouragement. > > It is directed to those are are new to the hobby or > those of you who are disappointed because you > still haven't found that special something even > though you have spent much time trying to find it. > > Have we dried up sources of old computers? Hardly. > > Can you still hope to find that missing system/ > software/manual/etc.? Indeed. Great thoughts there Kevin! Similar experiences of mine include the recent acquisitions of the Pet 2001, Sharp PC-5000, MicroProfessor, and the list goes on. Someone complaining, at least at this time in history, about computers not being available is merely an indication they don't know where to look. This list has given a LOT of ideas about how to get older computers!!! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Sep 16 13:55:38 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Seek and ye shall find - the story of the latest PDP-9 discovery. In-Reply-To: <37E1378E.22EF21C9@rain.org> References: <199909161749.NAA00606@phantom.golden.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990916114918.042a1100@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> More like seek and ye shall be innundated. When I got my first PDP-8 I thought it was the rarest beast on earth. Then I started looking for help and discovered a community, then as my obsession with the "old iron" became a talking point amongst my aquaintences I started getting "the calls." These come at odd times and go something like: Me: "Hello, this is Chuck." Them: "Are you Chuck McManis?" Me: "Yes, and you are?" Them: "We've not met but I heard you had an old computer museum or something?" Me: "Not exactly, I preserve older computers." Them: "Oh ... Well, we've got a bunch of XXX sitting in a closet and we don't know what to do with them, do you want them?" Me: "Sure, I can see that they get to good homes ..." Them: "Oh great! ..." It gets really weird after a while, truely it does. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 16 12:45:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <199909160300.XAA26088@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Sep 15, 99 11:00:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 904 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990916/8a22cd84/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 16 12:37:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: from "cem14@cornell.edu" at Sep 15, 99 08:25:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 923 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990916/363245d0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 16 12:42:03 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: from "cem14@cornell.edu" at Sep 15, 99 08:34:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1784 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990916/9436b124/attachment.ksh From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Sep 16 14:37:22 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Looking for a pdp-15 handbook or other docs Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990916123722.00833900@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Group: I have a friend who is looking for pdp-15 docs. Anybody have any, or pointers to any on the web? Kevin ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From hansp at digiweb.com Thu Sep 16 14:44:43 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Looking for a pdp-15 handbook or other docs References: <3.0.5.32.19990916123722.00833900@mail.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <37E148AB.CEFC9943@digiweb.com> Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > I have a friend who is looking for pdp-15 docs. > > Anybody have any, or pointers to any on the web? Yes I have some, what is he/she looking for? I'm just in the process of putting together an index of our PDP 4/7/9/15 docs. Hopefully should be posted on the web by the end of this weekend. I will post the URL as an when its available.... Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From mbg at world.std.com Thu Sep 16 14:46:36 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay References: <19990915144546Z13885-22076+116@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> <4.1.19990915155340.00a9a830@206.231.8.2> <37E071D3.916E1A58@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <199909161946.PAA01098@world.std.com> >The seller has the option of closing the auction down earlier than the >posted time. I know of no way though for the seller to extend the closing >time. Ebay does extend auctions 24 hours in the case of a hard outage on >their part. That is true... the seller can stop an auction before the scheduled time, but he or she must first contact all the parties who have bid and get them to retract their bids (or so I understand). It is also possible that someone complained about the actual auction to eBay and *they* shut down the auction early... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Sep 16 15:06:51 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Looking for a pdp-15 handbook or other docs In-Reply-To: <37E148AB.CEFC9943@digiweb.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19990916123722.00833900@mail.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990916130651.008b5440@mail.sfu.ca> Hi Hans: Thanks, I've cc-ed my friend on this. Kevin At 09:44 PM 16/09/99 +0200, you wrote: >Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > >> I have a friend who is looking for pdp-15 docs. >> >> Anybody have any, or pointers to any on the web? > >Yes I have some, what is he/she looking for? > >I'm just in the process of putting together an index of our PDP 4/7/9/15 >docs. Hopefully should be posted on the web by the end of this weekend. > >I will post the URL as an when its available.... > >Regards > >_---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- >Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue > > > > ========================================================== Sgt. Kevin McQuiggin, Vancouver Police Department E-Comm Project (604) 215-5095; Cell: (604) 868-0544 Email: mcquiggi@sfu.ca From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Sep 16 15:10:21 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay In-Reply-To: <199909161946.PAA01098@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Sep 1999, Megan wrote: > > That is true... the seller can stop an auction before the scheduled time, > but he or she must first contact all the parties who have bid and get > them to retract their bids (or so I understand). > > It is also possible that someone complained about the actual auction to > eBay and *they* shut down the auction early... Ok... you've got me curious. (swinging wildly toward being O.T.) What was there about this particular auction that might have led to a complaint which would have resulted in it being cancelled? (obviously, I did not see anything that threw up a flag) -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From ss at allegro.com Thu Sep 16 15:15:29 1999 From: ss at allegro.com (ss@allegro.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <199909161946.PAA01098@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199909162015.NAA28558@bart.allegro.com> I talked to the seller of the HP 2116, asking what happened. His reply: I got a high offer to end it early. I've responded, asking to know the price :) Stan From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Sep 16 15:41:44 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Ending Auctions (was Re: HP 2114 on ebay) In-Reply-To: <199909161946.PAA01098@world.std.com> References: <19990915144546Z13885-22076+116@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> <4.1.19990915155340.00a9a830@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19990916131933.03e88d90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 03:46 PM 9/16/99 -0400, Megan wrote: >That is true... the seller can stop an auction before the scheduled time, >but he or she must first contact all the parties who have bid and get >them to retract their bids (or so I understand). There's a lot of misinformation going around, I figured another experienced Ebay seller might step up but, apparently that task falls to me: First, the seller in an Ebay auction can end it at any time. You just click on the link to end an auction. Second, the basic rules continue to hold. Which are: - You offer something for sale, you have the option of setting a reserve price and a minimum bid. - When your auction ends, if the highest bid was above your reserve then you _MUST_ sell the item to the highest bidder. REGARDLESS OF HOW THE AUCTION ENDED. The last bit is important, once your reserve is met, the item must be sold to the high bidder. Its in the contract. So in the case of the 2114, the seller ended the auction early and sold the 2114 to aek@spies.com for at least $455.01. In this case, the seller probably lost out on potential revenue. Ebay auctions in my experience follow a very consistent pattern which goes something like this: $$ + * | . | . B | ............ . I $ + .. D | .. D | . |. +---+---+---+---+ ... +---+ d0 d1 d2 d3 d4 de-1 de Days of the auction de = ending day. (Sorry for the lousy ascii graphics) Where in the first day or so the price goes up a bit from the minimum bid as all of the interested parties put in their "watch" bids. Then its flat for the duration of the auction, and then on the last day (sometimes in the last 10 minutes) there is a huge flurry of bidding and the final price emerges. Now a clever bidder can take advantage of a novice seller, by being the high bidder at the start of the "quiet period" and then after a few days offering to just "end it now" and pay the high bid. To a novice seller this looks like a good deal since there hasn't been any bidding anyway, and they can get their money that much quicker. The seller fails to realize that some people shop ebay by _only_ looking at the "Ending Today" listings and so would not even _see_ their listing until the last day. Further, the novice seller fails to realize that most people do _not_ put their highest bid in at the start because they don't want to raise the price too much. Anyway, the latter technique would work great on sellers who were both novices and had their item at a price "wildly above" their expectations. Also the high bidder can offer more than their current high bid to the seller if they close the auction but this is _really_ dangerous because the seller only has their last bid on "paper" and an unscrupulous buyer could weasel out of paying more than their high bid. If the reserve price has not been reached then the seller can end the auction and not be obligated to sell the item to anyone. --Chuck From hansp at digiweb.com Thu Sep 16 15:34:26 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: DEC documentation reference numbers References: <3.0.5.32.19990916123722.00833900@mail.sfu.ca> <37E148AB.CEFC9943@digiweb.com> Message-ID: <37E15452.FE127C88@digiweb.com> Can anyone provide information on how DEC constructed their manual reference numbers. There appears to be some pattern, the machine number after DEC-, most maintenance programs are calleled MAINDEC.... What, for example does -LA mean at the end of a document? Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From g at kurico.com Thu Sep 16 15:44:23 1999 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Ending Auctions (was Re: HP 2114 on ebay) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990916131933.03e88d90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> References: <199909161946.PAA01098@world.std.com> Message-ID: > Second, the basic rules continue to hold. Which are: > - You offer something for sale, you have the option of setting > a reserve price and a minimum bid. > - When your auction ends, if the highest bid was above > your reserve then you _MUST_ sell the item to the highest > bidder. REGARDLESS OF HOW THE AUCTION ENDED. Speaking of this point, did anyone catch the auction for the Xerox Star? Talk about weird endings, it was around $2100 (reserve not met) until the very end, when suddenly a $7000 bid comes in (reserve met). But get this, the alias of the high bidder is almost exactly the same as the seller (seller was foobar, buyer was foo.bar). Sounds like maybe the second place bidder actually hit the reserve ($2300?) and the seller decided that he didn't want to sell it so put in a massive bid under a diff. alias? George From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Sep 16 15:26:24 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Seek and ye shall find - the story of the latest PDP-9 discovery. In-Reply-To: <199909161749.NAA00606@phantom.golden.net> Message-ID: >Seek and ye shall find. Really, lots and lots of >wonderful old small and big computers are >waiting to be discovered. > >Yours in good faith. Help people when you can, act in good faith, and it comes back to you. From morrison at t-iii.com Thu Sep 16 15:51:30 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Ending Auctions (was Re: HP 2114 on ebay) Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C4CADF@hobbit.t-iii.com> Well then he'd have to pay the commision on $7000, no? Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: George Currie [SMTP:g@kurico.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 1:44 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Ending Auctions (was Re: HP 2114 on ebay) > > > Second, the basic rules continue to hold. Which are: > > - You offer something for sale, you have the option of setting > > a reserve price and a minimum bid. > > - When your auction ends, if the highest bid was above > > your reserve then you _MUST_ sell the item to the highest > > bidder. REGARDLESS OF HOW THE AUCTION ENDED. > > Speaking of this point, did anyone catch the auction for the Xerox > Star? Talk about weird endings, it was around $2100 (reserve not > met) until the very end, when suddenly a $7000 bid comes in > (reserve met). But get this, the alias of the high bidder is almost > exactly the same as the seller (seller was foobar, buyer was > foo.bar). Sounds like maybe the second place bidder actually hit > the reserve ($2300?) and the seller decided that he didn't want to > sell it so put in a massive bid under a diff. alias? > > George From g at kurico.com Thu Sep 16 15:55:16 1999 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Ending Auctions (was Re: HP 2114 on ebay) In-Reply-To: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C4CADF@hobbit.t-iii.com> Message-ID: He could always say that the buyer "flaked out" and avoid paying the commission. > Well then he'd have to pay the commision on $7000, no? > > Neil Morrison > email:morrison@t-iii.com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: George Currie [SMTP:g@kurico.com] > > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 1:44 PM > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Subject: Re: Ending Auctions (was Re: HP 2114 on ebay) > > > > > Second, the basic rules continue to hold. Which are: > > > - You offer something for sale, you have the option of setting > > > a reserve price and a minimum bid. > > > - When your auction ends, if the highest bid was above > > > your reserve then you _MUST_ sell the item to the highest > > > bidder. REGARDLESS OF HOW THE AUCTION ENDED. > > > > Speaking of this point, did anyone catch the auction for the Xerox Star? > > Talk about weird endings, it was around $2100 (reserve not met) until > > the very end, when suddenly a $7000 bid comes in (reserve met). But get > > this, the alias of the high bidder is almost exactly the same as the > > seller (seller was foobar, buyer was foo.bar). Sounds like maybe the > > second place bidder actually hit the reserve ($2300?) and the seller > > decided that he didn't want to sell it so put in a massive bid under a > > diff. alias? > > > > George From marvin at rain.org Thu Sep 16 16:10:26 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Ending Auctions (was Re: HP 2114 on ebay) References: <19990915144546Z13885-22076+116@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> <4.1.19990915155340.00a9a830@206.231.8.2> <4.1.19990916131933.03e88d90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <37E15CC2.B196CFD7@rain.org> Chuck McManis wrote: > > Ebay auctions in my experience follow a very consistent pattern which goes > something like this: > > $$ + * > | . > | . > B | ............ . > I $ + .. > D | .. > D | . > |. > +---+---+---+---+ ... +---+ > d0 d1 d2 d3 d4 de-1 de > Days of the auction de = ending day. My experience is similar except that I've noticed the rise time at the end of the auction is getting steeper as people wise up as to a buying strategy that seems to reduce the final price, at least on ebay. I've had people contact me after the auction saying they wanted to bid but missed the deadline. I might add that I have mostly only tried to follow the Vintage Computers catagory. From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu Sep 16 16:11:41 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Find of the day: continued Message-ID: Well , I made a cable with the appropriate pin-out and turned the thing on... here's what came on the terminal: KA630-A.V1.3 Performing normal system tests 7..6..5..4..3.. Tests completed >>> boot 2.. ?54 RETRY 2.. (after a long time, I hit the halt button) ?02 EXT HLT PC = 00001AA8 >>> boot dua0 2.. ?42 NOSUCHFILE, DUA0 ?06 HLT INST PC = 00000EE6 Failure >>> Does that mean that the drive is busted, or just that there is no OS? The drive spins up and it sounds like it is seeking after issuing the boot command. Carlos. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Sep 16 16:15:10 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Ending Auctions (was Re: HP 2114 on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990916131933.03e88d90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <199909161946.PAA01098@world.std.com> Message-ID: >> Second, the basic rules continue to hold. Which are: >> - You offer something for sale, you have the option of setting >> a reserve price and a minimum bid. >> - When your auction ends, if the highest bid was above >> your reserve then you _MUST_ sell the item to the highest >> bidder. REGARDLESS OF HOW THE AUCTION ENDED. > >Speaking of this point, did anyone catch the auction for the Xerox >Star? Talk about weird endings, it was around $2100 (reserve not >met) until the very end, when suddenly a $7000 bid comes in >(reserve met). But get this, the alias of the high bidder is almost >exactly the same as the seller (seller was foobar, buyer was >foo.bar). Sounds like maybe the second place bidder actually hit >the reserve ($2300?) and the seller decided that he didn't want to >sell it so put in a massive bid under a diff. alias? > >George Does look a bit curious, but thats eBay (nuts). Both buyer and seller have a fair amount of feedback history, so they may be unique people with similar names. www.vintagecomputers.com claims to be the largest privately held computer collection, opening soon. Somebody should invite buyer and seller to join this list, if they BOTH aren't already on it. ;) Here is the bid history. eBay Bid History for Xerox Star, the First Commercial GUI Computer (item #159344077) If you have questions about this item, please contact the seller at the User ID provided below. Seller assumes all responsibility for listing this item. Last bid for this item: $7,500.00 (reserve price met) Date auction ends: 09/13/99, 20:37:51 PDT Date auction started: 09/06/99, 20:37:51 PDT Seller: old.computers (old_computers@yahoo.com) (16) First bid at: $1,000.00 Number of bids made: 16 (may include multiple bids by same bidder) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bidding History (in order of bid amount): oldcomputers (ebay@vintagecomputers.com) (14) Last bid at: $7,500.00 Date of bid: 09/13/99, 20:37:29 PDT atarmiga (atari@wcoil.com) (2) Last bid at: $2,300.00 Date of bid: 09/13/99, 18:07:46 PDT eleestafford (lstafford@thestaffords.com) (15) Last bid at: $2,010.00 Date of bid: 09/13/99, 16:41:51 PDT mikegalos (mikegalos@msn.com) (10) Last bid at: $1,025.00 Date of bid: 09/08/99, 22:33:50 PDT From cmcmanis at freegate.com Thu Sep 16 16:48:24 1999 From: cmcmanis at freegate.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: HELP: RF72 info and Control panel info Message-ID: <4.1.19990916144143.03cb34d0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Hello, First question for the list, does anyone have a technical manual on the RF72 (1GB DSSI drive)? The questions I have are: 1) What function does the blue wire in either pin 1 or pin 5 (depending on which is #1) of the power connector provide? 2) What function does the three position dip switch provide? (I've got a couple drives and some have switches set and others don't.) On a related topic, is there any documentation on the VAX "drive control" thingys? Various pieces of documentation I have offer tantalizing bits but I can't find the definitive definition. The Sigma docs talk about "active" and "passive" control panels, one of my BA213's has a 3 way DSSI panel with plugs for plastic "unit" plugs, one of my BA213's has a dual unit and the cab kit for SDI drives. My BA123 world box has four installed (not hooked up to anything) These latter ones appear to be "passive" (they have a 10 pin connector on them as well) --Chuck From elvey at hal.com Thu Sep 16 16:41:16 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Ending Auctions (was Re: HP 2114 on ebay) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990916131933.03e88d90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <199909162141.OAA07981@civic.hal.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > > Ebay auctions in my experience follow a very consistent pattern which goes > something like this: > > $$ + * > | . > | . > B | ............ . > I $ + .. > D | .. > D | . > |. > +---+---+---+---+ ... +---+ > d0 d1 d2 d3 d4 de-1 de > Days of the auction de = ending day. > > (Sorry for the lousy ascii graphics) Hi For you last minute buyers that need to keep on the top of your bid, www.skytel.com offers a pager service that lets you know when someone just topped your bid. Dwight From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 16 16:47:05 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Find of the day: continued In-Reply-To: from "cem14@cornell.edu" at Sep 16, 99 05:11:41 pm Message-ID: <199909162147.OAA16139@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 311 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990916/435fc14d/attachment.ksh From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 16 16:43:54 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Looking for a pdp-15 handbook or other docs In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990916123722.00833900@mail.sfu.ca> (message from Kevin McQuiggin on Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:37:22 -0700) References: <3.0.5.32.19990916123722.00833900@mail.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <19990916214354.20956.qmail@brouhaha.com> Kevin wrote: > I have a friend who is looking for pdp-15 docs. Does your friend have a PDP-15? I've got the PDP-15 Systems Reference Manual, and would like to get other manuals and maintenance prints. From mbg at world.std.com Thu Sep 16 16:56:01 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay Message-ID: <199909162156.RAA11938@world.std.com> >Ok... you've got me curious. (swinging wildly toward being O.T.) >What was there about this particular auction >that might have led to a complaint which would have resulted in it being >cancelled? (obviously, I did not see anything that threw up a flag) I really haven't been following the entire thread, so don't know what specific auction it was about -- I was just responding about the early end to an auction in general. So I can't tell what might have been wrong with it, if anything. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Sep 16 16:58:23 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: HP 2114 on ebay References: <199909161946.PAA01098@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199909162158.RAA13198@world.std.com> >I talked to the seller of the HP 2116, asking what happened. > >His reply: > > I got a high offer to end it early. > >I've responded, asking to know the price :) That doesn't sound like it is allowed according to eBay's rules... there has to be a compelling reason for termination, and not simply because the person has not decided to sell at auction. When a person starts an auction, they are committing to sell the item *to the highest bidder*... Someone may have a case to complain to ebay about this seller. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Sep 16 17:03:26 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Seek and ye shall find In-Reply-To: <37E1378E.22EF21C9@rain.org> References: <199909161749.NAA00606@phantom.golden.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990916180326.009545a0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Marvin may have mentioned these words: [snip] >Someone complaining, at least at this time in history, about >computers not being available is merely an indication they don't know where >to look. This list has given a LOT of ideas about how to get older >computers!!! I'll include the IMHO for you -- remember, not everyone is lucky enough to live in SillyCon Valley or HollyWeird... Where I live, PDP's are non-existant, trying to get (what few) Amigas that exist here can start a blood-feud, and if you see a CoCo2 at a garage sale the first thing to go thru your mind is "Whoohoo!!!" I have too many CoCo2's now... (and yes, the deal of the Amiga 1200's fell thru like a lead balloon. :-( ) Care to trade [computer] problems? Roger "Merch" Merchberger (P.S. And don't think "shipping" is the answer either -- having a full PDP truck-shipped to my area of the country would likely cost at least $400... loading & unloading not included.) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From mbg at world.std.com Thu Sep 16 17:03:01 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Ending Auctions (was Re: HP 2114 on ebay) References: <199909161946.PAA01098@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199909162203.SAA16118@world.std.com> >Speaking of this point, did anyone catch the auction for the Xerox >Star? Talk about weird endings, it was around $2100 (reserve not >met) until the very end, when suddenly a $7000 bid comes in >(reserve met). But get this, the alias of the high bidder is almost >exactly the same as the seller (seller was foobar, buyer was >foo.bar). Sounds like maybe the second place bidder actually hit >the reserve ($2300?) and the seller decided that he didn't want to >sell it so put in a massive bid under a diff. alias? And if so, that is against the eBay rules... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From mbg at world.std.com Thu Sep 16 17:14:34 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: eBay auction rules for ending Message-ID: <199909162214.SAA24137@world.std.com> Since someone mentioned that you can simply end an auction because you want to, here are the specifics... >Canceling Bids >You can cancel bids in an auction if one or more of the following >circumstances apply: > > 1.You've decided to end the auction > 2.A bidder contacts you to back out of a bid > 3.You can't verify the identity of a bidder after trying all > reasonable means of contact > >Please note: Cancellations are publicized in the auction bidding history, >and you will be asked to explain your cancellation to bidders. If the >cancellation was not legitimate, you're also likely to hear about it from >other users. > >Stop the Auction! > >You may miss out on just the bid you've been waiting for if you end your >auction early. Still, there may be times when you have a valid reason to >end an auction. You may stop your auction when you decide not to sell. To >do this, you must cancel all bids on your auction before it ends. If you do >not do this, you are obligated to sell to the high bidder. Note this last part... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Thu Sep 16 17:27:54 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller Message-ID: <990916182754.20200902@trailing-edge.com> >Well, modern single-chip microcontrollers are very cheap, and they're >easy to use. Probably less hassle than attempting to (legally) clone the >Apple disk ][ controller. This may be going counter to the tone of the discussion, but... If the goal is the least-hassle way to read and write Apple ][ disks, isn't the best solution AN APPLE ][ ? Besides, none of these other solutions are more than 10 years old! Tim. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Sep 16 17:52:54 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: eBay auction rules for ending In-Reply-To: <199909162214.SAA24137@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990916155052.041a2b30@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 06:14 PM 9/16/99 -0400, Megan (quoting Ebay's rules) wrote: >Since someone mentioned that you can simply end an auction because you >want to, here are the specifics... That was me... >>You may miss out on just the bid you've been waiting for if you end your >>auction early. Still, there may be times when you have a valid reason to >>end an auction. You may stop your auction when you decide not to sell. To >>do this, you must cancel all bids on your auction before it ends. If you do >>not do this, you are obligated to sell to the high bidder. >Note this last part... This agrees with my statement. Note that you do not have to cancel bids if the reserve was not met and you don't want to sell. And your "valid reason" need be nothing more than you felt like it. Yes, you are obligated to sell to the legitimate high bidder (which presumably happened in the HP2114 case) --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 16 18:04:27 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <990916182754.20200902@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Well, modern single-chip microcontrollers are very cheap, and they're > >easy to use. Probably less hassle than attempting to (legally) clone the > >Apple disk ][ controller. > This may be going counter to the tone of the discussion, but... > If the goal is the least-hassle way to read and write Apple ][ disks, isn't > the best solution > AN APPLE ][ ? Absolutely. > Besides, none of these other solutions are more than 10 years old! Apple Turnover, Matchpoint?, Quadlink, Diamond Trakstar 128, and Copy2 Option board are all over 10 years old. Most of them were DISCONTINUED more that 10 years ago. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Sep 16 18:21:54 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Central Point Option floppy controller In-Reply-To: References: <990916182754.20200902@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990916192154.0092d370@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) may have mentioned these words: >On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >> This may be going counter to the tone of the discussion, but... >> If the goal is the least-hassle way to read and write Apple ][ disks, isn't >> the best solution >> AN APPLE ][ ? >Absolutely. > >> Besides, none of these other solutions are more than 10 years old! > >Apple Turnover, Matchpoint?, Quadlink, Diamond Trakstar 128, and Copy2 >Option board are all over 10 years old. Most of them were DISCONTINUED >more that 10 years ago. Not only that, but IIRC the original gist of the discussion wasn't "how to read/write Apple ][ disks..." but was: "how to read/write Apple ][ disks on an IBM PC." For that, the Apple ][ really isn't the best solution. Besides, Apple ][s are really tough to find up here... my buddy rescued a //gs, tho... [[ and later wondered how much he could get for it when he was hard-up for cash... Him: How much could I get for it? Me: Maybe $20 tops... *if* you find someone interested in it. Him: What're my chances of finding that someone? Me: About the same odds of you gaining 600 pounds overnight and winning the Mr. Olympia title. (he's had a lot of gastro-intestinal surgery over the last 2 years -- he's over 6 foot tall and weights ~130lbs.) Him: You've got to be kidding! It's got a hard drive...]] Yea, he's still my friend, but as he owes me a lot of $$$, I'll prolly give him the $20 for the machine (off his tab, of course... ;-) Anywho, IMHO, YMMV, ABAF and all that jazz... Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From cem14 at cornell.edu Thu Sep 16 18:36:35 1999 From: cem14 at cornell.edu (cem14@cornell.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Find of the day: continued In-Reply-To: <199909162147.OAA16139@shell2.aracnet.com> Message-ID: I guess I was not clear enough... the drive does spin up and maintains a steady speed. No whirring, banging or high-frequency screeching like that heard in drives that have gone bad. And, just after issuing the boot command, the drive can be heard seeking. So there is nothing in the sounds that it makes that confirms death. On Thu, 16 Sep 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > That is what it generally means. Is it making sort of a 'whhhRRRRRR > whhhRRRR wwhhhhhRRRRRRR" noise, and not really totally spinning up? From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Sep 16 18:51:49 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Find of the day: continued Message-ID: <199909162351.TAA24705@world.std.com> <>>> boot < < 2.. < ?54 RETRY < < 2.. (after a long time, I hit the halt button) < ?02 EXT HLT < PC = 00001AA8 < <>>> boot dua0 < < 2.. < ?42 NOSUCHFILE, DUA0 < ?06 HLT INST < PC = 00000EE6 Either the drive is not dua0 or no OS on it. Allison From vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com Thu Sep 16 18:53:25 1999 From: vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 cem14@cornell.edu wrote: > > > On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > > > The pinout is a bit strange: > > > > DE-9 (DEC) DB-25 (PC) > > 1 1 > > 2 3 > > 3 2 > > 4 5 > > 5 6 > > 6 20 > > 7 7 > > 8 -\ > > 9 -/ (short 8 & 9) together > > Great! now all I have to do is solder. > > > The three position rotary switch controls the power up mode > > (arrow is normal, face is language inquiry, i dunno the other one) > > Ok, so nothing bad would happen by choosing the wrong one. This > switch really was a big question mark for me. > > > The maximum amount of memory you can have in a uVAX II is 16Mb, using > > two 8Mb memory boards. Unless it is a VAXStation II/GPX in which case > > the max is 12MB (or maybe 13MB)... You don't have the extra three cards > > to make it a GPX system. > > Apparently, there used to be other cards in here; there are four > small PC's fixed in the inside of the back panel, each holding > four DB25M connectors, but the ribbon cables coming out of them > are not connected to anything... > These are the breakout panels for two DHV11 (or is it DHU11) serial boards. Its nice to have an additional terminal to log into from time to time if the machine isn't on the network. You can probably find one on EBay for ~$10 (they aren't very popular). > > 75 or so MB MFM hard drive. Probably dead... They never were very > > good. > > hmm, everyone has expressed the same opinion about the drive. > Tony at least said that it was fixable, what he did not say > was whether he was the only one who could possibly fix them :-) > Anyone with the customer diagnostics (and a uVAX II) can reformat it, people with a uVAX 2000 can COMPLETEly reformat it (including the bad block table, spare tracks, etc)... I bought a SCSI controllers (CMD CQD-240/TM) for mine, and I run a single 1.2GB drive. They are quieter, and more reliable. This is a fairly expensive solution... I paid $800 each for the SCSI controller (refurbished, from a DEC reseller... Foolish me...), and $200 each for the drives. In one of your other EMails, you expressed an interest in VMS... You can get a (free) license for hobbiest use for VMS from DECUS... You have to buy the CDROM, and then figure out how to get it onto the disk. Booting from a Linux system is apparently possible, though I haven't tried it. > > Thanks for all the info! > Welcome! try http://vaxarchive.org for more stuff... They seem to be having trouble staying up though, so try at different times of the day. > > Carlos. > > clint From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Sep 16 19:00:44 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Ending Auctions (was Re: HP 2114 on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990916131933.03e88d90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> <199909161946.PAA01098@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990916194907.00a90100@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 03:44 PM 9/16/99 -0500, George Currie said something like: >> Second, the basic rules continue to hold. Which are: >> - You offer something for sale, you have the option of setting >> a reserve price and a minimum bid. >> - When your auction ends, if the highest bid was above >> your reserve then you _MUST_ sell the item to the highest >> bidder. REGARDLESS OF HOW THE AUCTION ENDED. > >Speaking of this point, did anyone catch the auction for the Xerox >Star? Talk about weird endings, it was around $2100 (reserve not >met) until the very end, when suddenly a $7000 bid comes in >(reserve met). But get this, the alias of the high bidder is almost >exactly the same as the seller (seller was foobar, buyer was >foo.bar). Sounds like maybe the second place bidder actually hit >the reserve ($2300?) and the seller decided that he didn't want to >sell it so put in a massive bid under a diff. alias? Hmmm, that could be. Except my thought is that the seller is rather "Creativity Challenged", to coin a new politically correct expression. If another party came along with an email to him stating he's 'giving it away' at $2.3k and said it should be around $7k and he panicked and setup that foo.bar monkey business and bought back his machine, then that is plain unethical. He should have done some more research on its value before starting the auction. foobar|foo.bar, sheesh. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu Sep 16 19:52:55 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: Find of the day: continued In-Reply-To: from "cem14@cornell.edu" at Sep 16, 1999 05:11:41 PM Message-ID: <199909170052.SAA30362@calico.litterbox.com> > > Well , I made a cable with the appropriate pin-out and > turned the thing on... here's what came on the terminal: > > KA630-A.V1.3 > > Performing normal system tests > > 7..6..5..4..3.. > > Tests completed This is good so far. Means the hardware is ok. > >>> boot dua0 > > 2.. > ?42 NOSUCHFILE, DUA0 > ?06 HLT INST > PC = 00000EE6 > > Failure > Uh oh. > > > Does that mean that the drive is busted, or just that there is no OS? > The drive spins up and it sounds like it is seeking after issuing > the boot command. > > Carlos. > I was kind of afraid of this. A microvax with no drives except a single 72 meg HD smacks of a Vaxcluster node. Basically it sounds like there's no OS loaded, IMHO, and that disk was used only for swap when the machine was a remote booting Vaxcluster node. I could be wrong and it could be that the disk is hosed or was wiped before the machine was retired, but I'm betting you're going to wind up loading an OS on this thing yourself. So what's a vaxcluster? (now called an OpenVMS cluster) In short, it's a way to tie several VMS machines together for higher availability and more computing power. The machines share (at least one) batch queue, print queues, an IP address, and they will load share DEC proprietary networking connections. VMSclustering also gives you a set of tools to manage all or part of the cluster as a single unit, greatly reducing the work of managing multiple machines doing the same job. The purpose of this is twofold. First, if one machine dies, the other will pick up the jobs on the batch queue and carry on, and all the user has to do is reconnect. All file systems are shared, so the user shouldn't even see the difference, except for the performance hit. Second, rather than having a whole machine sitting idle to provide the redundancy I described above, clustering lets you use the resources of the "backup" machine as well. Microvaxen fit into this picture a little differently. At the university I did vaxcluster management at, we had 7 of the little things, each dedicated to a building, but booting over ethernet from a common server which also owned all the disks, except the swap disk for each machine, which was its only local drive. (I reorganized this later, but that's how it stood when I got there) In this configuration, you don't get any redundancy, but you DO get the horsepower sharing and disk sharing. I think this is very likely similar to what your Microvax II used to do for its living. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From charlesII at nwonline.net Thu Sep 16 19:49:49 1999 From: charlesII at nwonline.net (Charles Oblender) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:23 2005 Subject: C64 I/O pinout Message-ID: <37E1902C.B0C0A1D@nwonline.net> After searching all over the internet for this I've found the pin out for the C64 serial port. The goal of finding this information: to connect serial port of the C64 to the RS232 serial port on my computer. Here's what I found. Pin, description 1, ? 2, GND 3, ATN 4, CLK 5, DATA 6, RESET The description that I found didn't list pin 1 for anything could this possibly be +5V? If so I could connect this to CTS (I'm trying to keep to the standard). ATN is probably attention which tells what device the computer is going to talk to. CLK is probably a clock signal which could be connected to Receive Clock. Could ATN be connected to DCD on the PC? Also what are the logic levels on the C64 port is it inverted compared to RS232 when it comes to 1 and 0 and what is the voltage on pin five for 1 and 0. Charles From mbg at world.std.com Thu Sep 16 19:53:44 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: eBay auction rules for ending Message-ID: <199909170053.UAA03238@world.std.com> >This agrees with my statement. Note that you do not have to cancel bids if >the reserve was not met and you don't want to sell. And your "valid reason" >need be nothing more than you felt like it. Yes, you are obligated to sell >to the legitimate high bidder (which presumably happened in the HP2114 >case) Ah - but if you look further into the rules for cancelling, it states: >You should only cancel bids if you have a good reason to. Also, please >remember that bids cannot be reinstated once they've been canceled. Here >are a few examples of a legitimate cancellation: > > Bidder contacts you to back out of the bid. > You cannot verify the identity of the bidder, after trying all > reasonable means of contact. > You want to end your auction early because you no longer want to sell > your item. In this case you must cancel all bids on your auction > before ending the auction. Note the last one here... "because you no longer want to sell your item". This is not the same as no longer wanting to sell your item *on ebay* because you have been offerred more off ebay... I guess my feeling is that what the seller did was unethical since he did want to sell the item. If he wanted to sell the item, and put it up for bid, then he is accepting the risk, like anyone else, of not getting what they would like for it. That should not be sufficient cause for stopping the auction and making those who bid in good faith suffer from his greediness. >Because your cancellation will be put in the bidding history for this >auction, bidders may ask you to explain your cancellation. So, please >include a one-line explanation of your cancellation for the official >record. And from all the questions about what happened to the auction, and why it was ended early... it would appear the seller didn't even do this. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Sep 16 20:16:01 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Xerox Star buyer? Message-ID: <6c5bf5c4.2512f051@aol.com> Does anyone know who WWW.VintageComputers.Com is or where they are located? Paxton From DD950 at prodigy.net Thu Sep 16 20:41:06 1999 From: DD950 at prodigy.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Xerox Star buyer? Message-ID: <00c801bf00ad$b65c2ea0$100afea9@cel-366> -----Original Message----- From: Innfogra@aol.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, September 16, 1999 6:21 PM Subject: Xerox Star buyer? >Does anyone know who WWW.VintageComputers.Com is or where they are located? >Paxton > Why Network Solutions does :-) The Data in Network Solutions' WHOIS database is provided by Network Solutions for information purposes, and to assist persons in obtaining information about or related to a domain name registration record. Network Solutions does not guarantee its accuracy. Registrant: Keystroke Engineering, LLC (VINTAGECOMPUTERS-DOM) 1233 N. Hoyne Chicago, IL 60622 US Domain Name: VINTAGECOMPUTERS.COM Administrative Contact: Zoghlin, Alex (AZ1172) zoghlin@IBM.NET (773) 395-6226 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Hostmaster, Rapidsite Inc. (HRI-ORG) hostmaster@RAPIDSITE.NET 561-994-6684 Fax- 561-994-6617 Fax- - 304-243-2497 Billing Contact: Zoghlin, Alex (AZ1172) zoghlin@IBM.NET (773) 395-6226 From Hermz1 at earthlink.net Thu Sep 16 20:43:38 1999 From: Hermz1 at earthlink.net (Hermz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: 3 1/2 disk drives In-Reply-To: <199909170053.UAA03238@world.std.com> Message-ID: I would like to know if its possible use a 3 1/2" disk drive with my Compaq Portable machine. Does it support one?? any other tidbits of info on the machine also would be apreiciated, like if its possible to run something a little more "friendly" than DOS, such as a file manager TIA Hermz ^^^^^^^ Is da man! From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Sep 16 20:56:06 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Xerox Star buyer? Message-ID: <4b22a567.2512f9b6@aol.com> Since the Star came from upstate NY and went to Chicago I bet it was a real sale. I bet the largest collection of computers in the world (http://www.vintagecomputers.com) didn't have an original star and was willing to meet a reserve price of $7500. I look forward to the web site when they get it done. Paxton From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 16 21:10:40 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Xerox Star buyer? In-Reply-To: <4b22a567.2512f9b6@aol.com> Message-ID: >Since the Star came from upstate NY and went to Chicago I bet it was a real >sale. I bet the largest collection of computers in the world >(http://www.vintagecomputers.com) didn't have an original star and was >willing to meet a reserve price of $7500. > >I look forward to the web site when they get it done. >Paxton I see they're claiming "The largest private collection of computers in the world.", so I'm wondering if someone actually has a larger collection than Paul Pierce? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Sep 16 21:22:25 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990916203642.00a91660@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 05:53 PM 9/16/99 -0600, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) said something like: > > > >On Wed, 15 Sep 1999 cem14@cornell.edu wrote: > >> -- snipparoni -- >disk. Booting from a Linux system is apparently possible, though >I haven't tried it. > >> >> Thanks for all the info! >> > >Welcome! try http://vaxarchive.org for more stuff... They seem to >be having trouble staying up though, so try at different times of >the day. AHA! Clint that's it! Earlier today I asked in this same thread what happened to http://vaxarchive.ml.org/. To wit: >Incidentally, for you other DEC mavens, I tried reviewing the VAXArchive at >http://vaxarchive.ml.org/ but it seems to be either relocated or not >available anymore. I felt it was a good VAX info resource. "Unable to find >the server vaxarchive.ml.org" is the message thrown back which suggests >it's MIA. Could anyone confirm? and Ethan replyed: "The entire ml.org domain is defunct." Dang. But then you chime in with the above URL, Clint. Thanks muchly! There's a lot of bits of VAX info at this site. I originally wanted to point out a few more MVII things for you to look at in the vaxarchive site Carlos! Dig around in it and enjoy. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Sep 16 21:26:50 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival - Computer Museum Tour Message-ID: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 October 2-3, 1999 Santa Clara Convention Center Santa Clara, California The Vintage Computer Festival is once again proud to present a tour of The Computer Museum History Center in Mountain View, California. The Computer Museum boasts the worlds largest collection of historic computers, including some one of a kind machines. If you've never visited the History Center then you should take advantage of this opportunity. Two tours are scheduled for 3:30pm on both Saturday and Sunday of the Festival based on demand. If there is not enough demand for two separate tours then all reservations will be consolidated to one tour on Sunday, October 3. Each tour will last approximately one hour. The tour is open to most everyone but you must register in advance to reserve a seat on the bus which will be taking participants to the History Center from the Santa Clara Convention Center. Since the History Center is located on a United States military base (Moffet Federal Airfield) foreign nationals will have to RSVP as soon as possible so that their identification can be processed. United States citizens and those with green cards should not have any difficulty registering. Please note there is a charge of $5 for the bus ride. Complete information on making a reservation can be found on The Computer Museum's web site: http://www.computerhistory.org/events/vcf_10021999/tours.page Spread the Word! Remember to tell a friend about the Vintage Computer Festival. This is a great event for the whole family since kids are admitted free. There will be plenty of fascinating old computers on display that will help introduce computing to a budding young mind. Sell Your Computer There are still a few booths available in the Vintage Computer Flea Market but they are going fast! If you have a bunch of old computers sitting in your closet, or want to cash in on the computer collecting craze, there's no better place than the VCF Flea Market to sell your old computers. Booths are $125 for the entire weekend. Don't wait too long to decide, this price is only good until September 15. You can also sell your items on consignment with the VCF. It's hassle free! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf/vendor.htm for complete details on vendor booths and consignment sales. We'll see you at VCF 3.0! And remember, tell your friends!! To be removed from this automated notification service simply reply to this message with the word REMOVE as the first line of the message. Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 October 2-3, 1999 Santa Clara Convention Center Santa Clara, California http://www.vintage.org/vcf From max82 at surfree.com Thu Sep 16 21:27:03 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: 3 1/2 disk drives Message-ID: <001e01bf00b4$260a8480$75021a26@surfree.surfree.com> >I would like to know if its possible use a 3 1/2" disk drive with my If not, you should be able to install another disk controller into it. There must be some kind of TSR which can help you with this also. >little more "friendly" than DOS, such as a file manager Well, I've been down that line, and I have not come up with a truly good way to hide DOS with a dos program. Norton Commander is my favorite file manager, someone here might have a copy to send you. Check out www.filelibrary.com (which requires free registration) for all kinds of DOS software. All the file managers you could dream of. All-in-all, DOS is a good functional OS which doesn't have a lot of pretty stuff. Unless you're going to USE the thing for word processing,etc. don't bother. From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Sep 16 21:34:25 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Xerox Star buyer? In-Reply-To: <4b22a567.2512f9b6@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990916223252.00a8b920@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 09:56 PM 9/16/99 -0400, Innfogra@aol.com said something like: >Since the Star came from upstate NY and went to Chicago I bet it was a real Upstate NY! That's basically my area. Do you know which town Paxton? -- Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 16 23:11:26 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >In one of your other EMails, you expressed an interest in VMS... You >can get a (free) license for hobbiest use for VMS from DECUS... You >have to buy the CDROM, and then figure out how to get it onto the >disk. Booting from a Linux system is apparently possible, though >I haven't tried it. You've kidding! Someone has booted a VMS box off of a Linux system!?!?! Whoa, that is seriously cool! Got any pointers to that? I personally don't want to try that, and since I've got a cluster going already, have no reason to, but the idea is cool! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Sep 16 23:08:58 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Xerox Star buyer? Message-ID: <3b8166a9.251318da@aol.com> In a message dated 9/16/99 7:35:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cfandt@netsync.net writes: > Upstate NY! That's basically my area. Do you know which town Paxton? No. The description of the Xerox Star listed "Upstate Ny" as the location. The email address 'oldcomputers@yahoo.com' is harder to find information about its' actual location. The Seller of the Star also has been active in selling intel 4004, 8008 and sets of intel processors on ebay. Paxton PS Paul Pierce may have the largest private collection in terms of Mass. IBM knew that value=weight and made correspondingly heavy systems. I am sure there are others out there with more individual systems. From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Thu Sep 16 23:22:28 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: C64 I/O pinout In-Reply-To: <37E1902C.B0C0A1D@nwonline.net> Message-ID: This page has everything you are looking for and more... http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dsladic/vice/doc/serial.txt Hope it helps! Aaron On Thu, 16 Sep 1999, Charles Oblender wrote: > After searching all over the internet for this I've found the pin out > for the C64 serial port. The goal of finding this information: to > connect serial port of the C64 to the RS232 serial port on my computer. > Here's what I found. > > Pin, description > 1, ? > 2, GND > 3, ATN > 4, CLK > 5, DATA > 6, RESET > > The description that I found didn't list pin 1 for anything could this > possibly be +5V? If so I could connect this to CTS (I'm trying to keep > to the standard). ATN is probably attention which tells what device the > computer is going to talk to. CLK is probably a clock signal which > could be connected to Receive Clock. Could ATN be connected to DCD on > the PC? Also what are the logic levels on the C64 port is it inverted > compared to RS232 when it comes to 1 and 0 and what is the voltage on > pin five for 1 and 0. > > > > > > Charles > From hansp at digiweb.com Thu Sep 16 23:31:58 1999 From: hansp at digiweb.com (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: eBay auction rules for ending References: <199909162214.SAA24137@world.std.com> Message-ID: <37E1C43E.4AEF843A@digiweb.com> Megan wrote: > >You may miss out on just the bid you've been waiting for if you end your > >auction early. Still, there may be times when you have a valid reason to > >end an auction. You may stop your auction when you decide not to sell. To > >do this, you must cancel all bids on your auction before it ends. If you do > >not do this, you are obligated to sell to the high bidder. So if the current high bidder has a bid in eBay of say $100. They call the seller and offer $1000 for closing the auction early. Result is the buyer is assured the item, the seller pays commission on $100 but actually receives $1000. It might be devious but it seems to fall within the rules. Regards _---_--__-_-_----__-_----_-__-__-_-___--_-__--___-__----__--_--__-___- Hans B Pufal Comprehensive Computer Catalogue From marvin at rain.org Thu Sep 16 23:35:36 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Xerox Star buyer? References: <6c5bf5c4.2512f051@aol.com> Message-ID: <37E1C518.5443355A@rain.org> Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > > Does anyone know who WWW.VintageComputers.Com is or where they are located? > Paxton Hope this helps :)! Registrant: Keystroke Engineering, LLC (VINTAGECOMPUTERS-DOM) 1233 N. Hoyne Chicago, IL 60622 US Domain Name: VINTAGECOMPUTERS.COM Administrative Contact: Zoghlin, Alex (AZ1172) zoghlin@IBM.NET (773) 395-6226 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Hostmaster, Rapidsite Inc. (HRI-ORG) hostmaster@RAPIDSITE.NET 561-994-6684 Fax- 561-994-6617 Fax- - 304-243-2497 Billing Contact: Zoghlin, Alex (AZ1172) zoghlin@IBM.NET (773) 395-6226 Record last updated on 31-Jan-99. Record created on 31-Jan-99. Database last updated on 16-Sep-99 04:48:41 EDT. Domain servers in listed order: NS.NAMESERVERS.NET 207.158.192.40 NS2.NAMESERVERS.NET 209.41.31.13 From jritorto at nut.net Thu Sep 16 23:59:46 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: firefox In-Reply-To: <01JG184TXA0YASB87Z@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: Ok, I got the firefox to boot to the serial line, but I have no passwords and it won't let me do the usual security bypassing stuff. When I try the uafalternate=1 thing, it stops the initialization with a file specification error and when I try the startup-via-opa0: trick, there are no commands available (i.e. SPAWN isn't a valid command and @sys$system:startup isn't found). What can I do? If I let it boot normally to the console, it'll let me try to log in, but guessing the password is pretty hopeless. The OS version banner tells me it's VMS T5.4-4G1. Does this mean anything abmormal? Both processors come up, BTW. TIA jake From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Sep 17 00:14:12 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: firefox In-Reply-To: (message from Jacob Ritorto on Fri, 17 Sep 1999 00:59:46 -0400 (EDT)) References: Message-ID: <19990917051412.23858.qmail@brouhaha.com> Jake wrote: > Ok, I got the firefox to boot to the serial line, but I have no passwords > and it won't let me do the usual security bypassing stuff. When I try the Well, at least you're getting further than I have so far. I pulled the SCSI disc out of mine for examination, and it was a non-DEC drive that contained for Novell Netware for a PC. I guess the drive must have been swapped in a bizarre plan to keep the original software and data from falling into the wrong hands. I haven't yet signed up for DECUS membership and a VMS hobbyist license, but I guess I'd better do it. From jritorto at nut.net Fri Sep 17 00:55:18 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: firefox In-Reply-To: <19990917051412.23858.qmail@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the morale booster, but this thing's awfully weird. None of the normal chevron prompt commands work and I can't find a listing of them on the net. b [dev] or b/1 [dev] are the only commands I've gotten to do anything yet. no help, etc. at least the 3100s had 'sho dev'! Hella cryptic. jake On 17 Sep 1999, Eric Smith wrote: > Jake wrote: > > Ok, I got the firefox to boot to the serial line, but I have no passwords > > and it won't let me do the usual security bypassing stuff. When I try the > > Well, at least you're getting further than I have so far. I pulled the > SCSI disc out of mine for examination, and it was a non-DEC drive > that contained for Novell Netware for a PC. I guess the drive must > have been swapped in a bizarre plan to keep the original software and > data from falling into the wrong hands. > > I haven't yet signed up for DECUS membership and a VMS hobbyist license, > but I guess I'd better do it. > > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Sep 17 08:05:29 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > You've kidding! Someone has booted a VMS box off of a Linux system!?!?! > Whoa, that is seriously cool! Got any pointers to that? I personally > don't want to try that, and since I've got a cluster going already, have no > reason to, but the idea is cool! Technically this should not be that unreasonable to do. The Linux box only has to be able to serve MOP boot and then at some point DECnet. Most MicroVAXen already know MOP over eithernet so the rest is up to the boot host. This is more important to those that would like to run a uVAX with VMS and not have a suitable install load media on the vax when they have a PC with CDrom. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Sep 17 08:10:49 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: firefox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > and it won't let me do the usual security bypassing stuff. When I try the > uafalternate=1 thing, it stops the initialization with a file > specification error and when I try the startup-via-opa0: trick, there are That means you didn't follow the full porocedure or someone removed the alternate UAF. Likely the first case. > no commands available (i.e. SPAWN isn't a valid command and > @sys$system:startup isn't found). What can I do? If I let it boot > normally to the console, it'll let me try to log in, but guessing the If the system boots... uaf alternate or not spawn should work. More than likely you didn't set one r more of teh correct condidtions correctly before boot or after boot. The system password if UAFalternate is correctly invoked in two CRs. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Sep 17 08:14:30 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: firefox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Thanks for the morale booster, but this thing's awfully weird. None of > the normal chevron prompt commands work and I can't find a listing of them > on the net. b [dev] or b/1 [dev] are the only commands I've gotten to do > anything yet. no help, etc. at least the 3100s had 'sho dev'! > Hella cryptic. Well if it's a MicroVAX then thats normal. There is a very limited command set that resemble a low level debugger and nothing of the capability of the 3100s capabilities. Attributable to it being older and having less ROM. If it boots anything (or tries to) the hardware is likely ok and then it's a matter of either cracking the password or installing an OS. Allison From CharlesII at nwonline.net Fri Sep 17 08:42:22 1999 From: CharlesII at nwonline.net (CharlesII) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: C64 I/O pinout Message-ID: Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: >This page has everything you are looking for and more... > >http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dsladic/vice/doc/serial.txt > >Hope it helps! > >Aaron > > > Yes, it did. Though ATN poses a problem on where to put it. I'm thinking of puting a logic inverter on it and connecting it to DTR on the RS232 port. Part of that article was cryptic when it came to the RESET pin I'll quote RESET: Serial Reset You may disconnect this line to save your disk drive. Did the reset pin actualy screw up the disk drive or what and from reading the artical it sounds like it is not needed. Charles From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Fri Sep 17 10:38:00 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: C64 I/O pinout In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just a thought... Did you look at the VICE source to see how they're handling the emulation of the serial port on the pc? Might be worth a peek... I don't know too much about the Commodore hardware - maybe someone else could give you some other advice on the disk drive, etc. Aaron On Fri, 17 Sep 1999, CharlesII wrote: > Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > >This page has everything you are looking for and more... > > > >http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dsladic/vice/doc/serial.txt > > > >Hope it helps! > > > >Aaron > > > > > > > Yes, it did. Though ATN poses a problem on where to put it. I'm thinking of puting a logic inverter on it and connecting it to DTR on the RS232 port. > > Part of that article was cryptic when it came to the RESET pin I'll quote > > RESET: Serial Reset > > You may disconnect this line to save your disk drive. > > Did the reset pin actualy screw up the disk drive or what and from reading the artical it sounds like it is not needed. > > Charles > From jritorto at nut.net Fri Sep 17 11:22:37 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: firefox success! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey all! I tried both break-in procedures again and it finally gave way! I removed the system password and reset all the sysboot variables to original, booted it up and now it's all cool. I don't know why those breakins failed the first time through... Maybe crust on the disk or something. I'm pretty sure I did evertyhing the same; I was following the directions explicitly. Thanks for the prodding, Allison and Eric. Thanks for the printerMMJ/console/HALT button tip, Roger. Thanks for the hardware heads-up, Dan. (I'll be in contact soon; hope the storm went by OK.) mucho gratitude.. jake [[for the voyeuristic, see dialogue below...]] KA60 V1.1 F..E..D..C..B..A..9..8..7..6..5..4..3..2..1..0 5 01010004 L2003 4 ? V1.1 1 SSC 00000001 2 DZ 00031200 ? 3 NI 19210770 ? 4 SCSI 00000901 5 SYS 00000001 7 01010002 L2004 3 ?? V1.1-B 1 GFX 80000122 ?? ILLEGAL CONFIGURATION Tests completed. 08-E1,P1 0B-E1,P1 08 CPU08 >>>b/1 dka VMB V1.0 -DKA0 .. ... SYSBOOT> SET/STARTUP OPA0: SYSBOOT> SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 SYSBOOT> CONTINUE VAX/VMS Version T5.4-4G1 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 %SMP-I-CPUBOOTED, CPU #11 has joined the PRIMARY CPU in multiprocessor operation waiting to form or join a VAXcluster system %VAXcluster-I-LOADSECDB, loading the cluster security database %MSCPLOAD-I-LOADMSCP, loading the MSCP disk server %CNXMAN, Proposing formation of a VAXcluster %CNXMAN, Now a VAXcluster member -- system LASER %CNXMAN, Completing VAXcluster state transition $ spawn spawn %DCL-S-SPAWNED, process SYSTEM_1 spawned %DCL-S-ATTACHED, terminal now attached to process SYSTEM_1 $ @sys$system:startup $! Copyright (c) 1990 Digital Equipment Corporation. All rights reserved. %MSCPLOAD-I-CONFIGSCAN, enabled automatic disk serving %MSCPLOAD-I-CONFIGSCAN, enabled automatic disk serving %SET-I-NEWAUDSRV, identification of new audit server process is 2020008C %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 20200091 %NCP-I-NOINFO, No information in database %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 20200095 %JBC-E-NODSTQUE, no such destination queue Job LICENSE_LOAD (queue LASER$SYSTEM, entry 668) started on LASER$SYSTEM Job MNT_DISKS (queue LASER$SYSTEM, entry 669) started on LASER$SYSTEM DAILY SYSTEM 621 Holding until 28-AUG-1992 00:00 DAILY SYSTEM 622 Holding until 28-AUG-1992 00:00 DAILY SYSTEM 623 Holding until 28-AUG-1992 00:00 Job SYS_LOGNAMES (queue LASER$SYSTEM, entry 670) pending pending status caused by queue busy Job LSE$STARTUP (queue LASER$SYSTEM, entry 671) pending pending status caused by queue busy Job SCA$STARTUP (queue LASER$SYSTEM, entry 672) pending pending status caused by queue busy Job PCA$STARTUP (queue LASER$SYSTEM, entry 673) pending pending status caused by queue busy Job EMACS_START (queue LASER$SYSTEM, entry 674) pending pending status caused by queue busy Job DVLMNT_LOGNAMES (queue LASER$SYSTEM, entry 675) pending pending status caused by queue busy %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 2020009F %DECW-W-BADVALUE, SYSGEN parameter WINDOW_SYSTEM is 0, should be 1 These SYSGEN parameters must be reset for DECwindows to start. You can request that this procedure use AUTOGEN to change these parameters and reboot your system. If you do not want to reboot your system now, you can defer these changes. DECwindows will not, however, start until the SYSGEN parameters are modified. To run AUTOGEN at a later date, enter the following command: $ @SYS$UPDATE:AUTOGEN getdata reboot check_feedback Do you want the system to run AUTOGEN for you [YES]? n %DECW-F-BADPARAMS, DECwindows cannot start %SET-I-INTSET, login interactive limit = 64, current interactive value = 0 27-AUG-1992 22:21:24 Process SYSTEM_1 logged out at 27-AUG-1992 22:21:26.30 Accounting information: Buffered I/O count: 2548 Peak working set size: 965 Direct I/O count: 988 Peak page file size: 4176 Page faults: 22220 Mounted volumes: 0 Charged CPU time: 0 00:01:18.81 Elapsed time: 0 00:03:39.36 %DCL-S-RETURNED, control returned to process STARTUP $ set default sys$system $ dir sysuaf.dat Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE] SYSUAF.DAT;1 Total of 1 file. $ run sys$system:authorize UAF> modify system /nopassword %UAF-I-MDFYMSG, user record(s) updated UAF> exit %UAF-I-DONEMSG, system authorization file modified %UAF-I-RDBNOMODS, no modifications made to rights data base $ reboot SHUTDOWN -- Perform an Orderly System Shutdown on node LASER [rebooting stuff snipped] Welcome to VAX/VMS T5.4-4G1 Username: SYSTEM Welcome to VAX/VMS version T5.4-4G1 on node LASER Last interactive login on Thursday, 27-AUG-1992 22:23 Last non-interactive login on Thursday, 27-AUG-1992 22:31 YAY!!!!! From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Sep 17 12:27:50 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: eBay auction rules for ending References: <4.1.19990916155052.041a2b30@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <37E27A16.AA9EDEE9@bigfoot.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > AThis agrees with my statement. Note that you do not have to cancel bids if > the reserve was not met and you don't want to sell. And your "valid reason" > need be nothing more than you felt like it. Yes, you are obligated to sell > to the legitimate high bidder (which presumably happened in the HP2114 case) > > --Chuck exactly right and no one will see that you did this except in the history for the one item, which is kept for only a few months. you get get the shaft if a reserve item doesn't sell though because you get nailed with the extra reserve fee. I end auctions of mine all the time because all I want to do is get one bid for the minimum amount posted and move the item rather than get rich on an otherwise useless item that someone could put to good use at a reasonable price. On a few items that did move along better than expected (way high bid) I've even paid the shipping instead of adding it on, even though my final value fee was against the actual price it closed at. the rules there are essentially guidelines, not a way for someone else to tell you how you will do something. If they were eBay wouldn't be where it is today. Anyone want to buy a good used kidney From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Sep 17 12:35:40 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: eBay auction rules for ending References: <199909170053.UAA03238@world.std.com> Message-ID: <37E27BEC.C2810E49@bigfoot.com> Megan wrote: > This is not the same as no longer wanting to sell your item *on ebay* > because you have been offerred more off ebay... > > I guess my feeling is that what the seller did was unethical since he did > want to sell the item. If he wanted to sell the item, and put it up for > bid, then he is accepting the risk, like anyone else, of not getting what > they would like for it. That should not be sufficient cause for stopping > the auction and making those who bid in good faith suffer from his > greediness. > > >Because your cancellation will be put in the bidding history for this > >auction, bidders may ask you to explain your cancellation. So, please > >include a one-line explanation of your cancellation for the official > >record. > > And from all the questions about what happened to the auction, and why > it was ended early... it would appear the seller didn't even do this. Ethics didn't make big business big, creativity (as they call it) and cunning did. Poor people have ethics. If the fact that this person closed early gets you so bad, then boycott the seller by not bidding on his/her items in the future. DONT however write emails to other bidders to tell them of his/her practices, as you will surely get boinked [technical term for screwed] and your registration locked out. It's hard to prove a seller is doing anything wrong whereas a copy of your emails are enough to make eBay's people knock you off their user base. Best bet is to laugh it off and go on with life, and maybe you'll see another like item later. > > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | > | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | > | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | > | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From rhblake at bigfoot.com Fri Sep 17 12:41:32 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Xerox Star buyer? References: <00c801bf00ad$b65c2ea0$100afea9@cel-366> Message-ID: <37E27D4C.6A3BF969@bigfoot.com> Jim wrote: > Network Solutions does not guarantee its accuracy. Registrant: > > Keystroke Engineering, LLC (VINTAGECOMPUTERS-DOM) > 1233 N. Hoyne > Chicago, IL 60622 > US It's correct, I was up that way last fall. Hoyne is just off of Western ave. I'm sure Art Pitkin could call and validate that since he's just north of that. From cureau at centuryinter.net Fri Sep 17 13:00:47 1999 From: cureau at centuryinter.net (Chris Cureau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Find of the day References: Message-ID: <37E281CE.24C3DEAE@centuryinter.net> > Technically this should not be that unreasonable to do. The Linux box > only has to be able to serve MOP boot and then at some point DECnet. > Most MicroVAXen already know MOP over eithernet so the rest is up to the > boot host. > > This is more important to those that would like to run a uVAX with VMS and > not have a suitable install load media on the vax when they have a PC with > CDrom. You've got me interested now, since I have a VMS CD but no way to hook a CDROM to my MicroVax-II...how would one go about doing this? Cheers, Chris From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Sep 17 13:04:33 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Xerox Star buyer? In-Reply-To: <37E27D4C.6A3BF969@bigfoot.com> References: <00c801bf00ad$b65c2ea0$100afea9@cel-366> Message-ID: >Jim wrote: > >> Network Solutions does not guarantee its accuracy. Registrant: >> >> Keystroke Engineering, LLC (VINTAGECOMPUTERS-DOM) >> 1233 N. Hoyne >> Chicago, IL 60622 >> US > >It's correct, I was up that way last fall. Hoyne is just off of Western >ave. I'm >sure Art Pitkin could call and validate that since he's just north of that. Why all the Sherlock Holmes, this person obviously belongs on this list, somebody email them and invite them to join. From DD950 at prodigy.net Fri Sep 17 13:41:20 1999 From: DD950 at prodigy.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Xerox Star buyer? Message-ID: <000801bf013c$3dc74bc0$100afea9@cel-366> -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford >Why all the Sherlock Holmes, this person obviously belongs on this list, >somebody email them and invite them to join. > > That would probably meet the definition of spam. Err..., you do it. :-) Besides, what are you going to say: "Please join our list, and, uh, you got any money left?" :-) Just kidding, but I am sure you are all thinking the same as me; I wonder what else does he wants to buy? Regards, Jim Rossbach, Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club, www.TonkinYachts.cjb.net God Made Us Sisters and Brothers, Prozac Made Us Friends. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 17 12:28:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: C64 I/O pinout In-Reply-To: <37E1902C.B0C0A1D@nwonline.net> from "Charles Oblender" at Sep 16, 99 08:49:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1974 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990917/89c471da/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 17 12:35:18 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: 3 1/2 disk drives In-Reply-To: from "Hermz" at Sep 16, 99 08:43:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1544 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990917/b90e766e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 17 12:46:42 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: C64 I/O pinout In-Reply-To: from "CharlesII" at Sep 17, 99 09:42:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 590 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990917/0ed7d475/attachment.ksh From wsmith at gj.com Fri Sep 17 14:05:01 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: eBay auction rules for ending Message-ID: > I guess my feeling is that what the seller did was unethical since he did > want to sell the item. If he wanted to sell the item, and put it up for > bid, then he is accepting the risk, like anyone else, of not getting what > they would like for it. That should not be sufficient cause for stopping > the auction and making those who bid in good faith suffer from his > greediness. At one time, and perhaps still today, eBay allowed the seller to place one bid on his/her own auction. This happened to me once on an auction where the seller outbid me at the last moment on a non-reserve auction. I was outraged, until the seller pointed out to me that he was within the rules in doing this. If it's still ok to bid on one's own auction, then the seller could put in a huge bid, immediately cancel the auction, and then still abide by the "rule" that the item be sold to the highest bidder. Right? From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Sep 17 15:40:58 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: <37E281CE.24C3DEAE@centuryinter.net> Message-ID: > You've got me interested now, since I have a VMS CD but no way to hook a > CDROM to my MicroVax-II...how would one go about doing this? One of several ways: Find an RRD40 and qbus cotroller for it. Find an RRD50 and qbus controller for it Find a SCSI Qbus adaptor and a CDrom that works (different block size for PC) Other routes would be to get a working TK50 or TK70 with controller and have someone cut tapes for you (this is allowed). Allison From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Fri Sep 17 15:56:39 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Find of the day Message-ID: <990917165639.202009ae@trailing-edge.com> >> You've got me interested now, since I have a VMS CD but no way to hook a >> CDROM to my MicroVax-II...how would one go about doing this? >One of several ways: > > Find an RRD40 and qbus cotroller for it. > Find an RRD50 and qbus controller for it > Find a SCSI Qbus adaptor and a CDrom that works (different > block size for PC) > >Other routes would be to get a working TK50 or TK70 with controller and >have someone cut tapes for you (this is allowed). Yet another route is to get a desktop VMS machine (say, a 3100-xx, or an Alphastation) with a CD-ROM. Install VMS on the desktop machine, then boot the Microvax-II into the cluster and MSCP-serve all the disks (including the CD-ROM) between all cluster members. The hobbyist license kit includes the clustering licenses as well. Clustering is not only a powerful user tool, but a power system management tool as well. Resources on clustered VMS nodes are - for all important purposes - local after a machine boots into the cluster. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From edick at idcomm.com Fri Sep 17 16:05:18 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Find of the day Message-ID: <001201bf0150$597ae160$0400c0a8@winbook> Yesterday or the day before, I posted that I had found a number of Intel ISIS-II, iAPX, and iRMX-86 manuals. Is there a website where these could be made available to whoever wants access? Likewise, I posted that I have about 20 diskettes in a case (not yet examined in detail) clearly marked iAPX Sources. Before I send these off to one fellow who wants them, perhaps they should be made available to the public at large. I'd be willing to send them to an appropriate web site if someone will recommend one. Dick From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri Sep 17 16:35:57 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Xerox Star buyer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Sep 1999, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >.... I bet the largest collection of computers in the world > >(http://www.vintagecomputers.com) didn't have an original star and was > >willing to meet a reserve price of $7500. > > > >I look forward to the web site when they get it done. > > I see they're claiming "The largest private collection of computers in the > world.", so I'm wondering if someone actually has a larger collection than > Paul Pierce? Are we qualifying "largest" in terms of number of items or volume/mass? B^} (and no, I'm not vying for a spot in the competition!) -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org || jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Sep 17 16:36:37 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: <001201bf0150$597ae160$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <4.1.19990917173048.00afd380@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 03:05 PM 9/17/99 -0600, Richard Erlacher said something like: >Yesterday or the day before, I posted that I had found a number of Intel >ISIS-II, iAPX, and iRMX-86 manuals. Is there a website where these could be >made available to whoever wants access? > >Likewise, I posted that I have about 20 diskettes in a case (not yet >examined in detail) clearly marked iAPX Sources. Before I send these off to >one fellow who wants them, perhaps they should be made available to the >public at large. I'd be willing to send them to an appropriate web site if >someone will recommend one. > Hi Dick, There are members on here, like myself, who are into the VME- and Multibus-based industrial/embedded systems. I have several Multibus-I boards and a couple of crates that I want to someday get running. iRMX-80 and -86 would indeed be of use in my attempts at this and any help such as you're offering will be appreciated. Docs are just as important too. Thanks much! --Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From elmo at hotpop.com Fri Sep 17 16:52:53 1999 From: elmo at hotpop.com (Eliot Moore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Help with Classic Modem: USR Password 1200 Message-ID: <37E2B835.1E11D73F@hotpop.com> Does anyone have documentation on the USR Password Modem? I have two of them I'd like to press back into service, but haven't a clue how to set the password/callback control. Web searching on "USR Password Modem" yields amusing, if not predictable, but irrelevant results. Regards, Elmo From elvey at hal.com Fri Sep 17 16:57:24 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990917173048.00afd380@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <199909172157.OAA12254@civic.hal.com> Christian Fandt wrote: > Upon the date 03:05 PM 9/17/99 -0600, Richard Erlacher said something like: ---snip--- > >>Likewise, I posted that I have about 20 diskettes in a case (not yet > > ---snip--- > There are members on here, like myself, who are into the VME- and > Multibus-based industrial/embedded systems. I have several Multibus-I > boards and a couple of crates that I want to someday get running. iRMX-80 > and -86 would indeed be of use in my attempts at this and any help such as > you're offering will be appreciated. Docs are just as important too. Hi Watch out for these old 8 inch ISIS disk. These are often M2FM and none of the standard controllers will read them. You'll need to find someone with a MDS-800 or Series II and the floppy controller to read these. Dwight From donm at cts.com Fri Sep 17 17:23:10 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Help with Classic Modem: USR Password 1200 In-Reply-To: <37E2B835.1E11D73F@hotpop.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Sep 1999, Eliot Moore wrote: > Does anyone have documentation on the USR Password Modem? > > I have two of them I'd like to press back into service, but haven't a > clue how to set the password/callback control. Web searching on "USR > Password Modem" yields amusing, if not predictable, but irrelevant > results. > > Regards, > Elmo > The Password 1200 that I am familiar with - in a grey plastic case - has no password/callback capability. - don From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Sep 17 17:29:33 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Compaq and 3 1/2 inch disk drives In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Sep 17, 1999 6:35:18 pm" Message-ID: <199909172229.SAA03567@pechter.dyndns.org> > > I would like to know if its possible use a 3 1/2" disk drive with my Compaq > > > Portable machine. Does it support one?? any other tidbits of info on the > > machine also would be apreiciated, like if its possible to run something a > > little more "friendly" than DOS, such as a file manager > > Wasn't there a more friendly command interpretter for MS-DOS called > '4DOS' or something (shareware IIRC)? It's been a long time since I used > MS-DOS, but I recall something like this. > > -tony 4DOS it is... But it's still command line. (much better for batch scripts, though) Perhaps DR-DOS with it's Gem-based file manager would do. Or CPS's PC-Tools, or Norton's Norton Commander, or MS/PC DOS 5/6's Windows-like file manager. Hell. I've got Windows 1.03. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From elmo at hotpop.com Fri Sep 17 17:55:33 1999 From: elmo at hotpop.com (Eliot Moore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Help with Classic Modem: USR Password 1200 References: Message-ID: <37E2C6E5.222DA0AC@hotpop.com> Don Maslin wrote: > On Fri, 17 Sep 1999, Eliot Moore wrote: > > > Does anyone have documentation on the USR Password Modem? > > > > I have two of them I'd like to press back into service, but haven't a > > clue how to set the password/callback control. Web searching on "USR > > Password Modem" yields amusing, if not predictable, but irrelevant > > results. > > > > Regards, > > Elmo > > > > The Password 1200 that I am familiar with - in a grey plastic case - has > no password/callback capability. > > - don > I vaguely recall some irony in the name chosen for the unit. Perhaps that was it -- any recollection what the pass-thru RS232 connector was intended for? Elmo From edick at idcomm.com Fri Sep 17 19:12:11 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Intel OS DOC and SOURCES (was) Re: Find of the day Message-ID: <002501bf016a$7e2b6ec0$0400c0a8@winbook> sorry about forgetting to change the subject . . . it was sort of a find, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, September 17, 1999 3:12 PM Subject: Re: Find of the day >Yesterday or the day before, I posted that I had found a number of Intel >ISIS-II, iAPX, and iRMX-86 manuals. Is there a website where these could be >made available to whoever wants access? > >Likewise, I posted that I have about 20 diskettes in a case (not yet >examined in detail) clearly marked iAPX Sources. Before I send these off to >one fellow who wants them, perhaps they should be made available to the >public at large. I'd be willing to send them to an appropriate web site if >someone will recommend one. > >Dick > > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Sep 17 19:28:44 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Intel OS DOC and SOURCE Message-ID: <002801bf016c$dd65df40$0400c0a8@winbook> There are three interest areas potentiallyh addressed by these documents and files. First of all, there are doc's relating to ISIS-II which (IIRC) was the 8-bit development environment of the very early '80's. Secondly, there are doc's relating to iRMX-86, and some source files. Thirdly, there are doc's and ostensibly source files relating to iAPX, which was another OS they were pushing for the 8x86/87/88/89 family. Some of the documents are assembler, debugger, compiler, etc. documents for PL/M-80 and PL/M 86, PASCAL 86, the various macro assemblers and cross-assemblers (in this case, for 8x86/88 family parts on their 8080/8085 platforms) and stuff like that. There are also some manuals relating to the console hardware, etc, and the MDS-80, among other things. There's even some hardware doc, though it's user manual stuff. If there were a web site which would accomodate the many thousands of pages involved here I'd consider scanning the stuff and forwarding the bitmaps to whoever wants them. Now, keep in mind that a typical TIFF of a printed page in single-bit format is about 1 MB in size, and we're looking at a 1-2'-high stack of paper with both sides printed in most cases. LEt's see. . . a ream is about 1-3/4" = 500 sheets . . . let's say 10 reams . . . so we're looking at 10 GB, right (GAWD! . . . I hope I've miscalculated!) Well . . . It could be sent as PCX files, only about 1/4 the size, and capable of being compressed as well . . . but it would still take a number of hours of transfer time unless I go to the POP to do it. There I have 44 Mb/sec . . . Now, who's got that much space at their ISP? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, September 17, 1999 3:40 PM Subject: Re: Find of the day >Upon the date 03:05 PM 9/17/99 -0600, Richard Erlacher said something like: >>Yesterday or the day before, I posted that I had found a number of Intel >>ISIS-II, iAPX, and iRMX-86 manuals. Is there a website where these could be >>made available to whoever wants access? >> >>Likewise, I posted that I have about 20 diskettes in a case (not yet >>examined in detail) clearly marked iAPX Sources. Before I send these off to >>one fellow who wants them, perhaps they should be made available to the >>public at large. I'd be willing to send them to an appropriate web site if >>someone will recommend one. >> > >Hi Dick, > >There are members on here, like myself, who are into the VME- and >Multibus-based industrial/embedded systems. I have several Multibus-I >boards and a couple of crates that I want to someday get running. iRMX-80 >and -86 would indeed be of use in my attempts at this and any help such as >you're offering will be appreciated. Docs are just as important too. > >Thanks much! --Chris >-- -- >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Sep 17 19:43:55 1999 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Intel OS DOC and SOURCE In-Reply-To: <002801bf016c$dd65df40$0400c0a8@winbook> (edick@idcomm.com) References: <002801bf016c$dd65df40$0400c0a8@winbook> Message-ID: <19990918004355.30496.qmail@brouhaha.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > If there were a web site which would accomodate the many thousands of pages > involved here I'd consider scanning the stuff and forwarding the bitmaps to > whoever wants them. Now, keep in mind that a typical TIFF of a printed page > in single-bit format is about 1 MB in size, and we're looking at a 1-2'-high > stack of paper with both sides printed in most cases. LEt's see. . . a ream > is about 1-3/4" = 500 sheets . . . let's say 10 reams . . . so we're looking > at 10 GB, right (GAWD! . . . I hope I've miscalculated!) No, for text and line art, just use TIFF Class F Group 4 compression. It's lossless, and for typical pages at 300 DPI it's only about 50K. Intricate pages somtimes wind up around 100K-120K. And although not all software can deal with that format, the Group 4 fax compression is one of the native formats for PDF, so I now supply all of my scanned documents as PDF files. For a few examples, see: http://www.36bit.org/dec/ Yes, I know that some people hate PDF format, and that you can't read them on a Commodore 64 or PDP-11/05. To which I say, too bad. I got many more complaints about other formats. Some people even wanted text pages in JPEG format, which is just about the worst conceivable format for them, since JPEG is a lossy format designed for continuous tone images. I've hacked a version of the imagepdf program from Thomas Metz's PDFLIB to directly import TIFF Class F Group 4 files into PDF files without decompressing them, so that it's not necessary to buy the $300 Acrobat program from Adobe. Eric From Hermz1 at earthlink.net Fri Sep 17 21:34:56 1999 From: Hermz1 at earthlink.net (Hermz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: Compaq and 3 1/2 inch disk drives In-Reply-To: <199909172229.SAA03567@pechter.dyndns.org> References: from Tony Duell at "Sep 17, 1999 6:35:18 pm" Message-ID: Hmm... Windows 1.0, it will run on a 8088 machine?? > >Perhaps DR-DOS with it's Gem-based file manager would do. >Or CPS's PC-Tools, or Norton's Norton Commander, or MS/PC DOS 5/6's >Windows-like file manager. > >Hell. I've got Windows 1.03. > >Bill > >--- > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, > The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. Hermz ^^^^^^^ Is da man! From siconic at jasmine.psyber.com Fri Sep 17 22:22:29 1999 From: siconic at jasmine.psyber.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: TRS-80 stash available for best offer Message-ID: Shelton Caruthers has a pile of some neat TRS-80 stuff that he's wanting to sell for the best offer. Please discuss details with Shelton. I am just passing this message along. I think he will sell items separately but you have to discuss it with him. Please reply directly to Shelton. Reply-to: SCaruthers@compuserve.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 21:56:46 -0400 From: "Shelton D. Caruthers" The following is a somewhat-complete list of the items: HARDWARE (with all manuals): TRS-80 Model 4 (working) with 128K RAM, 2 internal 5.25 drives 2 external 5.25 drives TRS-80 Line Printer VIII Modem II (300 b) Orch-90 Music Synthesizer TRS-80 Pocket Computer (with slight LCD damage) PC printer/cassett interface (ie, docking station w/printer) "Leather" case Realistic cassette player TRS-80 Pocket Computer Model 2 (with manuals) additional 8K RAM module "Leather" case Color Plotter/cassett interface RS-232 interface TRS-80 Modem I SOFTWARE (with manuals): TRS-DOS v6 (pre year 1986 bug fix) Profile 4 Plus Deskmate (for later Tandy PC) Microcom for Model III Model 4 Hi Res Graphics Utilities Super Scripsit (w/ audio tape training course) Super Scripsit Dictionary TRS-80 Disk Mailing List (Model I) Series I Editor/Assembler (Model I/III) TRS-80 Videotex/Compuserve Information Manager (Model I) Other misc. games and utilities... Pocket Computer Software: Personal Finance Games (multiple versions) Statistics Banners Other... Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puttin' the smack down on the man! Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web site update: 09/17/99] From fpp at concentric.net Fri Sep 17 22:36:49 1999 From: fpp at concentric.net (Paul Passmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:24 2005 Subject: eBay auction rules for ending Message-ID: <003301bf0187$0bb22420$57f9adce@paul> eBay does not allow bidding on one's own auctions. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Sep 17 23:33:57 1999 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: eBay auction rules for ending Message-ID: <8e094d4d.25147035@aol.com> In a message dated 9/17/99 11:33:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, fpp@concentric.net writes: > eBay does not allow bidding on one's own auctions. > well of course! that's just being a shill which they've really tried to crack down on. -->this message printed on recycled disk space. visit the computers of yesteryear at: http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm From edick at idcomm.com Sat Sep 18 00:40:50 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Intel OS DOC and SOURCE Message-ID: <003301bf0198$5e32af60$0400c0a8@winbook> Well, I like my scanner because it has a sheetfeeder and because it's legal size, but, alas, it's only capable of a limited range of formats. After all, I've had the thing for nearly ten years. Now, if you have a way to massage the old style TIFF (targa) files into something better, perhaps that would be the thing to do. A lot depends on what requirements the TBD web host will have, and I'll perhaps hold off until a site is found. OTOH, I did sort of allow that since Hans Franke is going to be at the VCF, though I'm not, I can arrange to get this stuff hauled out there for him by someone from here who's going. I will have to see whether he's willing to get this stuff scanned and appropriately compressed, then made available via the web. Wait and see . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, September 17, 1999 6:57 PM Subject: Re: Intel OS DOC and SOURCE >"Richard Erlacher" wrote: >> If there were a web site which would accomodate the many thousands of pages >> involved here I'd consider scanning the stuff and forwarding the bitmaps to >> whoever wants them. Now, keep in mind that a typical TIFF of a printed page >> in single-bit format is about 1 MB in size, and we're looking at a 1-2'-high >> stack of paper with both sides printed in most cases. LEt's see. . . a ream >> is about 1-3/4" = 500 sheets . . . let's say 10 reams . . . so we're looking >> at 10 GB, right (GAWD! . . . I hope I've miscalculated!) > >No, for text and line art, just use TIFF Class F Group 4 compression. >It's lossless, and for typical pages at 300 DPI it's only about 50K. >Intricate pages somtimes wind up around 100K-120K. > >And although not all software can deal with that format, the Group 4 >fax compression is one of the native formats for PDF, so I now supply >all of my scanned documents as PDF files. For a few examples, see: > http://www.36bit.org/dec/ > >Yes, I know that some people hate PDF format, and that you can't read >them on a Commodore 64 or PDP-11/05. To which I say, too bad. I got >many more complaints about other formats. Some people even wanted text >pages in JPEG format, which is just about the worst conceivable format >for them, since JPEG is a lossy format designed for continuous tone >images. > >I've hacked a version of the imagepdf program from Thomas Metz's PDFLIB >to directly import TIFF Class F Group 4 files into PDF files without >decompressing them, so that it's not necessary to buy the $300 Acrobat >program from Adobe. > >Eric From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Sep 18 01:36:38 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: FW: INFO-PDP11 mailing list needs to move soon! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If any of you have a full-time domain under your control, and could consider hosting the INFO-PDP11 mailing list server, please contact Pat Barron as noted in the attached message. Thanks. Attachment follows. -=-=- -=-=- On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:29:53 -0400 (EDT), in vmsnet.pdp-11 you wrote: >>From: Pat Barron >>Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 >>Subject: INFO-PDP11 mailing list needs to move soon! >>Message-ID: >>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:29:53 -0400 (EDT) >>Organization: Info-Pdp11<==>Vmsnet.Pdp-11 Gateway >>X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List >>Lines: 19 >>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news.globix.net!news.idt.net!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.kjsl.com!mvb.saic.com!info-pdp11 >>Xref: news1.jps.net vmsnet.pdp-11:71 >> >>Due to some logistical changes at work, it appears that I will not be >>able to host the INFO-PDP11 mailing list here for much longer. I am >>currently seeking a volunteer to take over the care and feeding of this >>mailing list. The ideal candidate should have a mail server under his/her >>direct control, with good Internet connectivity. If you use an >>automated list maintenance package like Majordomo, the actual time >>required for list administration is not substantial. If you might >>be willing to take on this task, please drop me a note and let me know. >> >>I have maintained this list for the last 11 years or so, and I've been >>very glad over that time to take care of this discussion list. The PDP-11 >>was the first "real" computer I ever used, and it was where I got all of >>my early experience with Unix kernel hacking, so it still holds a special >>place in my heart. However, for good or bad, it appears that I will >>[finally! ;-)] need to move on to other things - though even if/when the >>list does move, I'll still be a reader! >> >>--Pat. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Sep 18 01:43:59 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Real Apple 1 Sale! Message-ID: <13483f0f.25148eaf@aol.com> I think this is a real Apple 1 sale, and in my own backyard. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=162334931 Less than 2 days to go. Paxton From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Sep 18 01:57:39 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Help with Classic Modem: USR Password 1200 In-Reply-To: References: <37E2B835.1E11D73F@hotpop.com> Message-ID: >> Does anyone have documentation on the USR Password Modem? >> >> I have two of them I'd like to press back into service, but haven't a >> clue how to set the password/callback control. Web searching on "USR >> Password Modem" yields amusing, if not predictable, but irrelevant I have some of the Shiva products, netmodems, and telebridges, but those are oriented to AppleTalk network access. I've seen some Hayes remote bridges, but thats it. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Sep 18 06:19:21 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Compaq and 3 1/2 inch disk drives In-Reply-To: from Hermz at "Sep 17, 1999 9:34:56 pm" Message-ID: <199909181120.HAA09871@pechter.dyndns.org> > Hmm... Windows 1.0, it will run on a 8088 machine?? > > Absolutely. That's all there was back then. I ran it on an AT&T 6300 (8086) that they OEM'd from Olivetti to run Pagemaker 1.0. Bill From jlwest at tseinc.com Sat Sep 18 07:04:23 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: INFO-PDP11 mailing list needs to move soon! Message-ID: <002001bf01cd$f3d4db80$0101a8c0@jay> I have a full time domain, and a burstable 10mb ethernet connection to two major backbones. I'd be willing to host the mailing list, and if desired would consider "absorbing" the charge of registering a domain just for the list. Jay West -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, September 18, 1999 1:43 AM Subject: FW: INFO-PDP11 mailing list needs to move soon! > If any of you have a full-time domain under your control, and could >consider hosting the INFO-PDP11 mailing list server, please contact Pat >Barron as noted in the attached message. > > Thanks. Attachment follows. > >-=-=- -=-=- > >On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:29:53 -0400 (EDT), in vmsnet.pdp-11 you wrote: > >>>From: Pat Barron >>>Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 >>>Subject: INFO-PDP11 mailing list needs to move soon! >>>Message-ID: >>>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:29:53 -0400 (EDT) >>>Organization: Info-Pdp11<==>Vmsnet.Pdp-11 Gateway >>>X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List >>>Lines: 19 >>>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >>>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news.globix.net!news.idt.ne t!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.kjsl.com!mvb.saic.com!info-pdp11 >>>Xref: news1.jps.net vmsnet.pdp-11:71 >>> >>>Due to some logistical changes at work, it appears that I will not be >>>able to host the INFO-PDP11 mailing list here for much longer. I am >>>currently seeking a volunteer to take over the care and feeding of this >>>mailing list. The ideal candidate should have a mail server under his/her >>>direct control, with good Internet connectivity. If you use an >>>automated list maintenance package like Majordomo, the actual time >>>required for list administration is not substantial. If you might >>>be willing to take on this task, please drop me a note and let me know. >>> >>>I have maintained this list for the last 11 years or so, and I've been >>>very glad over that time to take care of this discussion list. The PDP-11 >>>was the first "real" computer I ever used, and it was where I got all of >>>my early experience with Unix kernel hacking, so it still holds a special >>>place in my heart. However, for good or bad, it appears that I will >>>[finally! ;-)] need to move on to other things - though even if/when the >>>list does move, I'll still be a reader! >>> >>>--Pat. > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, >Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com >Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com >"...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, >event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." > From jlwest at tseinc.com Sat Sep 18 07:10:27 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Intel OS DOC and SOURCE Message-ID: <003301bf01ce$cc5b75e0$0101a8c0@jay> Richard wrote... >First of all, there are doc's relating to ISIS-II which (IIRC) was the 8-bit >development environment of the very early '80's. That reminds me... I'm trying to dig up an old contact who was the original owner of an ISIS system like you mention. As I recall it was blue, a large bulky perfectly square monitor, and there was an 8" floppy drive in the monitor case. There was a hex keypad on the main bottom board too vaguely like the heathkit H8. I'm somewhat confident that he still has the machine and would give it up, I just haven't had the time to contact him. If anything comes up I'll let the list know... Jay West From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 18 11:00:35 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Compaq and 3 1/2 inch disk drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Hmm... Windows 1.0, it will run on a 8088 machine?? What else would it run on? Windoze up through 3.00 will run on an 8088. 3.10 and above requires at least a 286. PC-Tools cost me a lot of data. In order to keep its pretty displays, it corrupts the critical error handler to IGNORE all errors without reporting them! That sucks. Trivial correction to Tony's post: 720K 3.5" drives are supported by all versions of MS-DOS and PC-DOS from 3.20 on. And are supported by SOME OEM versions of MS-DOS in 2.11. 3.30 adds support for 1.4M, but that can sometimes have BIOS complications. From macierno at hotmail.com Sat Sep 18 12:32:59 1999 From: macierno at hotmail.com (mark acierno) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: INFO-PDP11 mailing list needs to move soon! Message-ID: <19990918173302.81714.qmail@hotmail.com> is there a pdp8 mailing list???? mark acierno >From: "Jay West" >Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > >Subject: Re: INFO-PDP11 mailing list needs to move soon! >Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 07:04:23 -0500 > >I have a full time domain, and a burstable 10mb ethernet connection to two >major backbones. I'd be willing to host the mailing list, and if desired >would consider "absorbing" the charge of registering a domain just for the >list. > >Jay West >-----Original Message----- >From: Bruce Lane >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Saturday, September 18, 1999 1:43 AM >Subject: FW: INFO-PDP11 mailing list needs to move soon! > > > > If any of you have a full-time domain under your control, and could > >consider hosting the INFO-PDP11 mailing list server, please contact Pat > >Barron as noted in the attached message. > > > > Thanks. Attachment follows. > > > >-=-=- -=-=- > > > >On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:29:53 -0400 (EDT), in vmsnet.pdp-11 you wrote: > > > >>>From: Pat Barron > >>>Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 > >>>Subject: INFO-PDP11 mailing list needs to move soon! > >>>Message-ID: > > >>>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:29:53 -0400 (EDT) > >>>Organization: Info-Pdp11<==>Vmsnet.Pdp-11 Gateway > >>>X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List > >>>Lines: 19 > >>>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > >>>Mime-Version: 1.0 > >>>Path: >news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news.globix.net!news.idt.ne >t!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.kjsl.com!mvb.saic.com!info-pdp11 > >>>Xref: news1.jps.net vmsnet.pdp-11:71 > >>> > >>>Due to some logistical changes at work, it appears that I will not be > >>>able to host the INFO-PDP11 mailing list here for much longer. I am > >>>currently seeking a volunteer to take over the care and feeding of this > >>>mailing list. The ideal candidate should have a mail server under >his/her > >>>direct control, with good Internet connectivity. If you use an > >>>automated list maintenance package like Majordomo, the actual time > >>>required for list administration is not substantial. If you might > >>>be willing to take on this task, please drop me a note and let me know. > >>> > >>>I have maintained this list for the last 11 years or so, and I've been > >>>very glad over that time to take care of this discussion list. The >PDP-11 > >>>was the first "real" computer I ever used, and it was where I got all >of > >>>my early experience with Unix kernel hacking, so it still holds a >special > >>>place in my heart. However, for good or bad, it appears that I will > >>>[finally! ;-)] need to move on to other things - though even if/when >the > >>>list does move, I'll still be a reader! > >>> > >>>--Pat. > > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, > >Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com > >Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com > >"...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an >object, > >event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define >any of them..." > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 18 13:09:31 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: INFO-PDP11 mailing list needs to move soon! References: <19990918173302.81714.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <99091814100303.03867@vault.neurotica.com> If there isn't, I'd be more than willing to start/host one. -Dave McGuire On Sat, 18 Sep 1999, mark acierno wrote: >is there a pdp8 mailing list???? > > >mark acierno > > > >>From: "Jay West" >>Reply-To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >>To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" >> >>Subject: Re: INFO-PDP11 mailing list needs to move soon! >>Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 07:04:23 -0500 >> >>I have a full time domain, and a burstable 10mb ethernet connection to two >>major backbones. I'd be willing to host the mailing list, and if desired >>would consider "absorbing" the charge of registering a domain just for the >>list. >> >>Jay West >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Bruce Lane >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> >>Date: Saturday, September 18, 1999 1:43 AM >>Subject: FW: INFO-PDP11 mailing list needs to move soon! >> >> >> > If any of you have a full-time domain under your control, and could >> >consider hosting the INFO-PDP11 mailing list server, please contact Pat >> >Barron as noted in the attached message. >> > >> > Thanks. Attachment follows. >> > >> >-=-=- -=-=- >> > >> >On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:29:53 -0400 (EDT), in vmsnet.pdp-11 you wrote: >> > >> >>>From: Pat Barron >> >>>Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 >> >>>Subject: INFO-PDP11 mailing list needs to move soon! >> >>>Message-ID: >> >> >>>Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:29:53 -0400 (EDT) >> >>>Organization: Info-Pdp11<==>Vmsnet.Pdp-11 Gateway >> >>>X-Gateway-Source-Info: Mailing List >> >>>Lines: 19 >> >>>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >> >>>Mime-Version: 1.0 >> >>>Path: >>news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!news.globix.net!news.idt.ne >>t!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.kjsl.com!mvb.saic.com!info-pdp11 >> >>>Xref: news1.jps.net vmsnet.pdp-11:71 >> >>> >> >>>Due to some logistical changes at work, it appears that I will not be >> >>>able to host the INFO-PDP11 mailing list here for much longer. I am >> >>>currently seeking a volunteer to take over the care and feeding of this >> >>>mailing list. The ideal candidate should have a mail server under >>his/her >> >>>direct control, with good Internet connectivity. If you use an >> >>>automated list maintenance package like Majordomo, the actual time >> >>>required for list administration is not substantial. If you might >> >>>be willing to take on this task, please drop me a note and let me know. >> >>> >> >>>I have maintained this list for the last 11 years or so, and I've been >> >>>very glad over that time to take care of this discussion list. The >>PDP-11 >> >>>was the first "real" computer I ever used, and it was where I got all >>of >> >>>my early experience with Unix kernel hacking, so it still holds a >>special >> >>>place in my heart. However, for good or bad, it appears that I will >> >>>[finally! ;-)] need to move on to other things - though even if/when >>the >> >>>list does move, I'll still be a reader! >> >>> >> >>>--Pat. >> > >> >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >> >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, >> >Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com >> >Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com >> >"...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an >>object, >> >event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define >>any of them..." >> > >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 18 13:19:07 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: INFO-PDP11 mailing list needs to move soon! Message-ID: <990918141907.202009e1@trailing-edge.com> On Sat, 18 Sep 1999, mark acierno wrote: >is there a pdp8 mailing list???? There certainly is... PDP8-LOVERS: Contact: pdp8-lovers-owner@onelist.com (James E. Carpenter) Purpose: To facilitate communication and cooperation between owners of vintage DEC computers, specifically, but not limited to, the PDP-8 series of minicomputers. The list is gatewayed to the Usenet newsgroup alt.sys.pdp8. http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/pdp8-lovers To subscribe, send email to pdp8-lovers-subscribe@onelist.com Listserver: ONElist Another important PDP-8 online resources is the Usenet newsgroup "alt.sys.pdp8", which gets a copy of Doug Jones' FAQ every two months (also readable at http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/ ). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 18 12:57:28 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Compaq and 3 1/2 inch disk drives In-Reply-To: from "Hermz" at Sep 17, 99 09:34:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 237 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990918/cb332f9c/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Sat Sep 18 14:11:14 1999 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim Strickland) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Find of the day In-Reply-To: from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Sep 17, 1999 04:40:58 PM Message-ID: <199909181911.NAA05945@calico.litterbox.com> > > > You've got me interested now, since I have a VMS CD but no way to hook a > > CDROM to my MicroVax-II...how would one go about doing this? > > One of several ways: > > Find an RRD40 and qbus cotroller for it. > Find an RRD50 and qbus controller for it > Find a SCSI Qbus adaptor and a CDrom that works (different > block size for PC) > > Other routes would be to get a working TK50 or TK70 with controller and > have someone cut tapes for you (this is allowed). > > Allison If you're looking for a CDROM, Plextor makes several that will do the smaller block size to make unix and VMS happy. They're SCSI, of course. -- Jim Strickland jim@DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From donm at cts.com Sat Sep 18 17:37:25 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Help with Classic Modem: USR Password 1200 In-Reply-To: <37E2C6E5.222DA0AC@hotpop.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Sep 1999, Eliot Moore wrote: > > > Don Maslin wrote: > > > On Fri, 17 Sep 1999, Eliot Moore wrote: > > > > > Does anyone have documentation on the USR Password Modem? > > > > > > I have two of them I'd like to press back into service, but haven't a > > > clue how to set the password/callback control. Web searching on "USR > > > Password Modem" yields amusing, if not predictable, but irrelevant > > > results. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Elmo > > > > > > > The Password 1200 that I am familiar with - in a grey plastic case - has > > no password/callback capability. > > > > - don > > > > I vaguely recall some irony in the name chosen for the unit. Perhaps that > was it -- any recollection what the pass-thru RS232 connector was intended > for? > > Elmo > Worse than that, I do not even recall a pass-thru connector. The RD-232 input was via a DB-25 on the end of a pigtail cable attached at the rear of the case. Also at the rear are the RJ-11 connector for phone line, a pin jack type power input connector, a slide switch for power, and a 4-place DIP switch. If yours has another DB-25 (I don't know where they'd put it), then we are talking different critters. - don From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Sep 18 18:05:47 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: New (small!) toy. Message-ID: <13484677489.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Dropped by a hamfest today. Got a DD11-DK, a RX11 board, and a Macintosh LC. Also got my newest and smallest toy yet! It looks like a large calculator, and it's a little weatherbeaten, but it's a computer. It's a silver obling piece badges as a "TRS-80 Pocket Computer". It seems to undestand a subset of BASIC, it has a printer/cassette interface (as a seperate unit, and the printer ribbon is shot), and acts like any other TRS-80 I've met so far. I have no clue as of the capabilities and limitations of this piece - Anyone got any information? The LCD is cracked (t was dropped) and the case is pretty beaten, but it seems to work fine. I'm probably going to open it shortly, something inside it is rattling around. Anyone else know any more about the unit? This looks neat enough I might try to scan pictures of it and post them somewhere. ------- From rhblake at bigfoot.com Sat Sep 18 18:36:09 1999 From: rhblake at bigfoot.com (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: 5262 on ebay Message-ID: <37E421E9.C83B02E6@bigfoot.com> anyone need/want a HUGE printer? theres a 5262 line printer for twinax on ebay at http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=162820647 we have one at work, makes a great worktable and/or paperweight -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990918/c45a8d2b/attachment.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 18 18:27:20 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: New (small!) toy. In-Reply-To: <13484677489.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Sep 18, 99 04:05:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1119 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990919/d385845c/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 18 18:47:22 1999 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: New (small!) toy. References: <13484677489.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <99091819490901.04253@vault.neurotica.com> On Sat, 18 Sep 1999, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >Dropped by a hamfest today. Got a DD11-DK, a RX11 board, >and a Macintosh LC. Good score on the RX11! >Also got my newest and smallest toy yet! >It looks like a large calculator, and it's a little weatherbeaten, but >it's a computer. It's a silver obling piece badges as a "TRS-80 Pocket >Computer". It seems to undestand a subset of BASIC, it has a printer/cassette >interface (as a seperate unit, and the printer ribbon is shot), and acts >like any other TRS-80 I've met so far. I bought one of those new when I was in high school. I should still have the documentation...*somewhere*. It was at least eight moves ago for me. But I do remember having seen the docs in a pile of books about a year ago, so I guess I'll start digging! The dialect of BASIC is somewhat limited, but it is functional and useful for simple tasks. -Dave McGuire From dogas at leading.net Sat Sep 18 19:30:43 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: New (small!) toy. Message-ID: <01bf0236$35b04fe0$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> >it's a computer. It's a silver obling piece badges as a "TRS-80 Pocket >>Computer". It seems to undestand a subset of BASIC, it has a printer/cassette >>interface (as a seperate unit, and the printer ribbon is shot), and acts >>like any other TRS-80 I've met so far. They were also manditory purchases for freshmen for DeVry Institute's EET courses circa '84 ;) Mike: dogas@leading.net From Hermz1 at earthlink.net Sat Sep 18 20:15:40 1999 From: Hermz1 at earthlink.net (Hermz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Compaq and 3 1/2 inch disk drives In-Reply-To: <199909181120.HAA09871@pechter.dyndns.org> References: from Hermz at "Sep 17, 1999 9:34:56 pm" Message-ID: Hmm.. I'd love to just see windows 1.0, all I need a disk drive for the machine then, so you think you could send it to me? >> Hmm... Windows 1.0, it will run on a 8088 machine?? >> >> > >Absolutely. That's all there was back then. >I ran it on an AT&T 6300 (8086) that they OEM'd from Olivetti to run >Pagemaker 1.0. > >Bill Hermz ^^^^^^^ Is da man! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Sep 19 01:18:50 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: PC Tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >PC-Tools cost me a lot of data. In order to keep its pretty displays, it >corrupts the critical error handler to IGNORE all errors without reporting >them! That sucks. Which version? I just bought a new in the sealed box copy of version 9 (central point PC tools, local Goodwill has a pile of them) From a2k at one.net Sun Sep 19 07:41:40 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: 3 1/2 disk drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > You can use a 1.44Mbyte _drive_ with 720K _disks_ on a XT controller, > though. It's a bit of a waste of the drive, but since 720K-only drives > are not common any more, you might have to do this. Using 1.44Mbyte disks > will probably prove unreliable, even though you'll only be formatting > them for 720K. I've got a load of 720k disks from a dumpster-diving evening (woowoo, I also got a clock :) ). Yours for shipping. I'd guess somewhere around 50-100 of them, though I haven't really seperated them from the 1.44 ones... I almost never use disks except to boot OSs and install them, so I have them all in a box in the corner of my basement... I tend to make a pile of 720k disks when I find them. Kevin From djenner at halcyon.com Sun Sep 19 09:33:49 1999 From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: PC Tools References: Message-ID: <37E4F44D.437D4525@halcyon.com> The last "good" version of PC Tools, in my opinion, was Version 4.30. It was small, well-featured, and worked well. It ran under DOS. I still use it and not the bloated, buggy updates after that. Dave Mike Ford wrote: > > >PC-Tools cost me a lot of data. In order to keep its pretty displays, it > >corrupts the critical error handler to IGNORE all errors without reporting > >them! That sucks. > > Which version? I just bought a new in the sealed box copy of version 9 > (central point PC tools, local Goodwill has a pile of them) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 19 11:38:17 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: PC Tools In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >PC-Tools cost me a lot of data. In order to keep its pretty displays, it > >corrupts the critical error handler to IGNORE all errors without reporting > >them! That sucks. > Which version? I just bought a new in the sealed box copy of version 9 > (central point PC tools, local Goodwill has a pile of them) I've forgotten which version, and I really should have included that along with such a damning complaint. I'll try to find out this next week. The symptom: About ten years ago (ON-Topic :-) I had been using an AT (real IBM) with a flaky drive with PC-Write as "reception machine" for text editing of phone log, telephone messages, text editing of invoices, text editing of name and address files, etc. I was starting to get incidents where it would seek over and over, really SAWING away, followed by either finally finding the sector, or giving a critical error ("Sector Not Found\nAbort, Retry, Ignore", or "data error\nA,R,I"). Sometimes a RETRY would work, sometimes I would save under a new name, and rename the old file BADSECS.XXX. When I installed PC Tools and switched over to it, it would saw, but then continue on. I would assume "Ah, it finally found it!". It NEVER gave me the critical error messages ("...,\nAbort, Retry, Ingore?") that I had been accustomed to getting. Then, eventually, I found that my files were full of 512 byte long chunks of garbage. and/or missing 512 byte long pieces of file. It had apparently been "handling" the critical errors with an "IGNORE", so as to not have its displays messed up by "...\nA,R,I" messages. I finally switched to Windoze 3.0, and then 3.10, and it has been usable, and eventually replaced the drive. It's been OK for the last 10 years, although I may soon replace the whole thing in order to implement a Caller-ID capable answering system (when people don't block it, it's a LOT more reliable for knowing what number to call back than "5 5 5 mumble mumble" on the answering machine.) From wsmith at gj.com Sun Sep 19 11:58:54 1999 From: wsmith at gj.com (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Kaypro PC-10? Message-ID: Has anyone ever heard of a "Kaypro PC-10"? The Kaypro PC models I am familiar with are the 16 and 2000. Someone is selling a manual for a PC-10 on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=164605910 My guess is that it is an abortive non-portable PC effort. From kees.stravers at iae.nl Sun Sep 19 11:59:03 1999 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: vaxarchive (was: Re: Find of the day) Message-ID: <19990919165903.29B2A7D57@iaehv.iae.nl> On Thu, 16 Sep 1999 17:53:25 -0600 (MDT), vaxman@oldy.crwolff.com said: 8< snip helpful vms info >8 >> Thanks for all the info! >> >Welcome! try http://vaxarchive.org for more stuff... They seem to >be having trouble staying up though, so try at different times of >the day. VAXarchive has indeed been down for a while, but it will be back! The IP number of the machine hosting www.vaxarchive.org has been changed, and there was a problem updating the name servers. It should be fixed soon. In the mean time you can use the mirror at http://vaxarchive.sevensages.org www.vaxarchive.org is the new name of vaxarchive.ml.org, it had to get a new name after the ml.org service went away. I'm glad you mentioned the site, makes me feel I'm not maintaining it for nothing :-) Kees. -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/ my Computer Home page http://www.vaxarchive.org/ documentation on old VAX systems http://vaxarchive.sevensages.org/ VAXarchive mirror Net-Tamer V1.08.1 - Registered From markiw at prodigy.net Sun Sep 19 12:46:35 1999 From: markiw at prodigy.net (Mark Will) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Kaypro PC-10? Message-ID: <000e01bf02c7$3d11fe00$4369fea9@amdk62> -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Smith >Has anyone ever heard of a "Kaypro PC-10"? The Kaypro PC models I am familiar with are the 16 and 2000. Someone is selling a manual for a PC-10 on eBay: > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=164605910 > >My guess is that it is an abortive non-portable PC effort. > Yes, my boss owned a KayPro desktop XT or maybe it was an AT clone back in 1987. I got some of my work done on it that summer. I am not sure, but I would imagine that that was the PC-10 or whatever back then. The 10 probably meant the size of the HDD. I remember comparing it to the KayPro 2X I used at home and finding the CP/M machine to be faster. One of the reasons I didn't upgrade until 1993. (I upgraded to a $50 Packard Hell XT that I still have :-) I have looked at Ebay and notice that the KayPro CP/M machines don't seem to bring in much money. Makes me feel better about giving mine away in 1996. Regards, Jim, Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club Web Ring, www.TonkinYachts.cjb.net Life is an endless struggle full of frustrations and challenges, but eventually you find a hairstyle you like. From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Sep 19 13:24:54 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: vaxarchive (was: Re: Find of the day) In-Reply-To: <19990919165903.29B2A7D57@iaehv.iae.nl> Message-ID: <4.1.19990919142014.009aa1c0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 06:59 PM 9/19/99 +0200, kees.stravers@iae.nl said something like: -- snip -- >VAXarchive has indeed been down for a while, but it will be back! >The IP number of the machine hosting www.vaxarchive.org has been changed, >and there was a problem updating the name servers. It should be fixed >soon. In the mean time you can use the mirror at >http://vaxarchive.sevensages.org > >www.vaxarchive.org is the new name of vaxarchive.ml.org, it had to get >a new name after the ml.org service went away. > >I'm glad you mentioned the site, makes me feel I'm not maintaining it for >nothing :-) Thank you very much for maintaining this resource Kees! Most of the time many of us do get manuals or such tech info with any VAXen we rescue. BTW, vaxarchive has been accessable by me since last Wednesday or Thursday. Must be hitting the right times to get on during their efforts to work on the IP # (unless they're actually completely done with the work now.) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From lkinzer at sciti.com Sun Sep 19 13:32:07 1999 From: lkinzer at sciti.com (Lowell Kinzer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Kaypro PC-10? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990919102228.00a26e20@popmail.ltsp.com> At 09:58 AM 9/19/99 , Wayne Smith wrote: >Has anyone ever heard of a "Kaypro PC-10"? The Kaypro PC models I am >familiar with are the 16 and 2000. Someone is selling a manual for a PC-10 >on eBay: > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=164605910 > >My guess is that it is an abortive non-portable PC effort. > It was one model in their Kaypro Professional Computer (KPC) line of computers, which they started in 1986 (if I recall correctly). The original KPC did not have a hard drive. Later models, the PC-10, PC-20 and PC-30, had 10MB, 20MB and 30MB hard drives, respectively. Lowell Kinzer lkinzer@sciti.com From max82 at surfree.com Sun Sep 19 17:59:34 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: NCR Safari 3115 Message-ID: <001f01bf02f2$a8b77600$72021a26@surfree.surfree.com> Hi, Has anyone come across this machine before? It's a rubber-coated pen Windows machine. Does anybody have any info on it? I just got one at the MIT Flea today and am having some problems booting it. From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun Sep 19 19:23:48 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Help with QBus board identification Message-ID: <19990920002352Z13332-5668+166@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> I have a QBus board that I would like to identify. Its made by Digital Pathways and the model number is TCU-50 Rev A. It is a quad size board and there are three small batteries in the top right corner of the board. There are no peripheral connectors on the card, so I figure its some type of clock or possibly a small amount of battery backed up storage (the machine it was take from was used for collecting process data). Any ideas of what it might be? -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Sep 19 20:07:20 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Help with QBus board identification Message-ID: <990919210720.22e000eb@trailing-edge.com> >I have a QBus board that I would like to identify. Its made >by Digital Pathways and the model number is TCU-50 Rev A. It >is a quad size board and there are three small batteries in >the top right corner of the board. There are no peripheral >connectors on the card, so I figure its some type of clock >or possibly a small amount of battery backed up storage (the >machine it was take from was used for collecting process >data). Any ideas of what it might be? It's not a Q-bus board - what you have there is a Unibus clock board. (There is a Q-bus version, not surprisingly called the TCQ-150.) I posted Y2K patches to the Digital Pathways supplied RT-11 clock-reading routines on vmsnet.pdp-11 a few years back, if you want to put this board to use. Accessing the clock board is very simple; it's four words from 160770 through 160776. The first word contains the date (not in RT-11 bit order) as year (7 bits), month (5 bits), and day (5 bits), the second word has the hour and minute, the third word has the number of seconds, and the fourth word has the number of clock ticks. With 100% certainty, you'll need to replace the batteries on the board. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Sep 19 20:08:09 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Help with QBus board identification Message-ID: <990919210809.22e000eb@trailing-edge.com> >I have a QBus board that I would like to identify. Its made >by Digital Pathways and the model number is TCU-50 Rev A. It >is a quad size board and there are three small batteries in >the top right corner of the board. There are no peripheral >connectors on the card, so I figure its some type of clock >or possibly a small amount of battery backed up storage (the >machine it was take from was used for collecting process >data). Any ideas of what it might be? It's not a Q-bus board - what you have there is a Unibus clock board. (There is a Q-bus version, not surprisingly called the TCQ-150.) I posted Y2K patches to the Digital Pathways supplied RT-11 clock-reading routines on vmsnet.pdp-11 a few years back, if you want to put this board to use. Accessing the clock board is very simple; it's four words from 160770 through 160776. The first word contains the date (not in RT-11 bit order) as year (7 bits), month (5 bits), and day (5 bits), the second word has the hour and minute, the third word has the number of seconds, and the fourth word has the number of clock ticks. With 100% certainty, you'll need to replace the batteries on the board. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun Sep 19 20:28:57 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Help with QBus board identification In-Reply-To: <990919210809.22e000eb@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at "Sep 19, 1999 09:08:09 pm" Message-ID: <19990920012858Z13339-5668+178@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > >I have a QBus board that I would like to identify. Its made > >by Digital Pathways and the model number is TCU-50 Rev A. It > >is a quad size board and there are three small batteries in > >the top right corner of the board. There are no peripheral > >connectors on the card, so I figure its some type of clock > >or possibly a small amount of battery backed up storage (the > >machine it was take from was used for collecting process > >data). Any ideas of what it might be? > > It's not a Q-bus board - what you have there is a Unibus clock board. > (There is a Q-bus version, not surprisingly called the TCQ-150.) I assume that the board is mis-labelled or some mistake has been made, since I removed it from a working qbus system (an 11/73). Is it possible to put a Unibus board in a qbus system, I know it won't work, but will it physically fit into the backplane? I had trouble setting the clock on this system, maybe this is the reason. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sun Sep 19 20:39:57 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Help with QBus board identification Message-ID: <990919213957.22e000eb@trailing-edge.com> >I assume that the board is mis-labelled or some mistake has >been made, since I removed it from a working qbus system (an 11/73). >Is it possible to put a Unibus board in a qbus system, I know it >won't work, but will it physically fit into the backplane? Yes, it will fit. If it was in there, well, then, maybe it really is the Q-bus version. (Or my memory of TCU vs TCQ has faded...) For that matter, Omnibus boards fit into Unibus and Q-bus backplanes too... >I had trouble setting the clock on this system, maybe this is >the reason. If the RT-11 "TIME" command isn't incrementing, that has nothing to do with the TCU - it's an indication that the line time clock (60Hz for us) interrupt is somehow disabled. With the board in, does it respond at its standard addresses of 160770 - 160776? If so, then it's installed in the right sort of system. You ought to see the value at 160774 incrementing once per second if the clock is indeed ticking. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Sep 19 21:57:05 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: HP/UX, Passwords, and Rock 'n Roll. Message-ID: <19990919.215708.247.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Guys: I just scored a HP 9000/340 (I think), and the hard drive has HP/UX loaded on it. I don't know the root password, of course. Anybody know of a way to break into this, or should I wipe it and start over? Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Sun Sep 19 22:18:32 1999 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Help with QBus board identification In-Reply-To: <990919213957.22e000eb@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at "Sep 19, 1999 09:39:57 pm" Message-ID: <19990920031842Z13343-5668+192@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> > > >I had trouble setting the clock on this system, maybe this is > >the reason. > > If the RT-11 "TIME" command isn't incrementing, that has nothing to > do with the TCU - it's an indication that the line time clock (60Hz > for us) interrupt is somehow disabled. > > With the board in, does it respond at its standard addresses of > 160770 - 160776? If so, then it's installed in the right sort > of system. > > You ought to see the value at 160774 incrementing once per second > if the clock is indeed ticking. > I haven't had chance to try that yet. I booted it a few times after I got it, it runs RSX-11M, which I'm not overly familiar with. Once I knew it basically worked I thought I would give it a good cleaning and make an inventory of the parts (it has a TK50 which I want to make sure works before I put tapes in it). When I get it back up again, I'll look at the clock again. Thanks for the information. -- Dr. Mark Green mark@cs.ualberta.ca Professor (780) 492-4584 Director, Research Institute for Multimedia Systems (RIMS) Department of Computing Science (780) 492-1071 (FAX) University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada From spc at armigeron.com Sun Sep 19 22:50:57 1999 From: spc at armigeron.com (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: HP/UX, Passwords, and Rock 'n Roll. In-Reply-To: <19990919.215708.247.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at Sep 19, 99 09:57:05 pm Message-ID: <199909200350.XAA09037@armigeron.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1106 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990919/cc22d798/attachment.ksh From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Mon Sep 20 01:32:27 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Arachnid Eradication... Message-ID: A question for those who might have worked as exterminators putting themselves through college... Are there any potential risks to my old beauties by bug-bombing the garage? I have had enough; I am still recovering from the effects of a black widow bite I sustained while (stooopidly) reaching inside the main cabinet of my HP-3000/37 the other day. Not too serious, apparently I'm not particularly allergic and it was a rather mild bite, but I've felt like I've had the flu for a few days. My doctor was amused that I got it fooling around with computer artifacts, though, which led to me possibly (crossed-fingers) inheriting some nifty old proprietary medical gear. I'd like to just set off a few foggers in there, but my dilemma is that if I cover up the gear with plastic well enough to keep the spray out, the nasty little bastards may survive. Anyone done this? Thoughts? Aaron From marvin at rain.org Mon Sep 20 02:30:32 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Arachnid Eradication... References: Message-ID: <37E5E298.481F1061@rain.org> Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > > A question for those who might have worked as exterminators putting > themselves through college... > I'd like to just set off a few foggers in there, but my dilemma is that if > I cover up the gear with plastic well enough to keep the spray out, the > nasty little bastards may survive. Anyone done this? Thoughts? The exterminators that fumigated out house indicated that the little buggers have an ability to go into a state that some will survive fumigation. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Sep 20 02:47:16 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Arachnid Eradication... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Are there any potential risks to my old beauties by bug-bombing the >garage? I have had enough; I am still recovering from the effects of a >black widow bite I sustained while (stooopidly) reaching inside the main >cabinet of my HP-3000/37 the other day. Not too serious, apparently I'm >not particularly allergic and it was a rather mild bite, but I've felt >like I've had the flu for a few days. My doctor was amused that I got it >fooling around with computer artifacts, though, which led to me possibly >(crossed-fingers) inheriting some nifty old proprietary medical gear. > >I'd like to just set off a few foggers in there, but my dilemma is that if >I cover up the gear with plastic well enough to keep the spray out, the >nasty little bastards may survive. Anyone done this? Thoughts? Number one, bug bombing via foggers poses no threat to spiders. ;( Something the fumigators will tell you is that to kill spiders you have to tent for more than 24 hours, which is the standard for killing termites. Spiders know how, and apparently when to hold their breath for as long as 24 hours. The cans non proffesionals can buy kill by DIRECT contact, ie spray the spider. Wow, what an improvement over a flyswatter. Yipes, sorry to hear about your bite though. Most adults don't have too much trouble, depending a lot on the amount that the spider chooses to pump into you. (humans aren't prey, so many times the bite has little or no venom) The hazard to younger kids though is MUCH greater. You need to remove the habitat, killing the spiders isn't sufficent unless you make it a regular activity. Unfortunately you live in an area much like I grew up in and its a black widow "ideal" climate etc. Forget exterminators unless you want to add one to your monthy payroll. Find a local bug person, or a internet bug group, and get some advice from people who don't just want to replace one parasite with a bigger inc. one. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Sep 20 03:17:43 1999 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Spiders, hazard of collecting junk? In-Reply-To: <37E5E298.481F1061@rain.org> References: Message-ID: I have to admit I am more than a little paranoid about spiders, and since watching a brown recluse segment on PBS, I simply don't poke my fingers into places I can't see. About 75 years ago when my father was a young man a black widow fell on his arm, and he didn't even really notice a bite at the time. A few days later a doctor was attempting to calmly convince him to have the arm removed before it killed him. The doc was all for doing it immediately even if it required a couple people holding my dad down, but a 45 Colt proved sufficient to get a second opinion. One of the local "grannys" made up a "polltus" to cover the bite, and a sort of big pimple formed. A few days later a core of dead flesh fell out open to the bone, but it healed completely in a few weeks just leaving a scar. Modern medicine hasn't improved that much in the years since then (I am curious about your experience on or off list). They have some spider antivenoms, but generally don't use them unless a person has a strong reaction. From what I have heard they aren't very effective anyway, since the poison acts fairly quickly. Bites to the face, hands, or feet are often the worst since we have less "fatty" tissue to absorb the poison. As I mentioned in the first email, a LOT depends on what the spider decides to pump into a person, or how many times to bite, if at all. I've never been bitten that I know of, but I have had half a dozen black widows crawl on me at various times. The most exciting being the turtle neck sweater I put on over bare skin that had one near my shoulder wanting out, but not nearly as much as I wanted the sweater off. Big sucker too, has me shaking stuff out three decades later. The worst of it was, I KNEW it was a spider, and there is only one way to take off a turtleneck sweater, back over your head. Two side facts; the daddy long legs "type" of spider has much stronger venom than the black widow, but can't open its jaws wide enought to bite a human. And my favorite, revenge, the average person during their lifetimes eats about half a dozen spiders in their sleep. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Sep 20 05:55:39 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Arachnid Eradication... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199909200856.KAA09531@horus.mch.sni.de> > Are there any potential risks to my old beauties by bug-bombing the > garage? I have had enough; I am still recovering from the effects of a > black widow bite I sustained while (stooopidly) reaching inside the main > cabinet of my HP-3000/37 the other day. Not too serious, apparently I'm > not particularly allergic and it was a rather mild bite, but I've felt > like I've had the flu for a few days. My doctor was amused that I got it > fooling around with computer artifacts, though, which led to me possibly > (crossed-fingers) inheriting some nifty old proprietary medical gear. > I'd like to just set off a few foggers in there, but my dilemma is that if > I cover up the gear with plastic well enough to keep the spray out, the > nasty little bastards may survive. Anyone done this? Thoughts? Well, foggers might harm your spiders not at all. Spiders are not insects, and their way of 'breathing' is different. Also they need _way_ less O2 during the day than lets say a cockroach (sp?). And at last, spiders tend to sit in small 'holes' and move only if realy needed - and as we might know in our quest for termal convection: the smaler the path, the lower the 'willinglness' to move - will say: your poison don't reach into. I'm not shure about the spider situation in your area, but as long as your storage area is pretty much open for public (at least for the insect community), spiders will move into and hunt 'em down. (BTW: I like to have a small (aktualy 5) spider population in my storage to keep the other bugs down - well yes, not exactly black widdows :). So, if you want to keep your spider (and insect) population down, you need to move your collection into a dry and, if possible, higher altitude (first floor) environment. Also, just mooving all your stuff and applying new wall pint (to the walls, not the computers :) could reduce the bugs for several month (or one or two years) to almost zero - it needs time until there is enough shmuts again to keep them happy. I would have way more concerns about my computers during an exterminator session than about the bugs (and spiders). And after all, since I love to touch, run, dismantle and rebuild my babies, one still has to think about your own health - if it is bad for other living cratures, it's not necersary good for yourself. Gruss H. -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Sep 20 06:56:36 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: New (small!) toy. In-Reply-To: References: <13484677489.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Sep 18, 99 04:05:47 pm Message-ID: <199909200957.LAA13581@horus.mch.sni.de> > > like any other TRS-80 I've met so far. > > I have no clue as of the capabilities and limitations of this piece - > You're pretty much limited to BASIC, and it doesn't have that much > memory. It's probably best to think of it as a fancy programmable > calculator. Well, the 1211 is the 'grandfather' of all small Sharps, and the direct precessor to the 124x/5x/6x series. There are tricks to get ML programms running from tape, but basicly, the real fun started with the 1248 (I'll hacked it on a long drive from berlin where I just tried all 2 letter abrevations to look for undocumented command - and I found them ! Peek/Poke/Call/etc. Now I could access all hardware, but even within almost a year, I couldn't discover the processor beneth - well, it was just a complete hidden and 'non standard' design. Eventualy Sharp published an assemb manual. Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Mon Sep 20 06:35:20 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: HP/UX, Passwords, and Rock 'n Roll. In-Reply-To: <19990919.215708.247.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at "Sep 19, 1999 9:57: 5 pm" Message-ID: <199909201227.IAA15469@pechter.dyndns.org> > > Guys: > > I just scored a HP 9000/340 (I think), and the hard drive > has HP/UX loaded on it. I don't know the root password, > of course. Anybody know of a way to break into this, or > should I wipe it and start over? > > > Jeff One possibility is booting up NetBSD or OpenBSD and using vi to blank out the password fields or using it to create a user account with no password and a SUID copy of a Unix shell. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Sep 20 08:33:44 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: HP/UX, Passwords, and Rock 'n Roll. Message-ID: <000801bf036c$c2c05880$d402a8c0@ws2.tse.com> You can boot the system in single user mode, remount / as read/write, then use the passwd command to change the password. Reboot in multiuser, and you should be ok. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, September 20, 1999 7:32 AM Subject: Re: HP/UX, Passwords, and Rock 'n Roll. >> >> Guys: >> >> I just scored a HP 9000/340 (I think), and the hard drive >> has HP/UX loaded on it. I don't know the root password, >> of course. Anybody know of a way to break into this, or >> should I wipe it and start over? >> >> >> Jeff > >One possibility is booting up NetBSD or OpenBSD and using >vi to blank out the password fields or using it to create a user >account with no password and a SUID copy of a Unix shell. > >Bill > >--- > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, > The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. > From kees.stravers at iae.nl Mon Sep 20 08:59:46 1999 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Kaypro PC-10? Message-ID: <19990920135946.D4E307DBD@iaehv.iae.nl> On Sun, 19 Sep 1999 09:58:54 -0700, wsmith@gj.com said: >Has anyone ever heard of a "Kaypro PC-10"? The Kaypro PC models I am >familiar with are the 16 and 2000. Someone is selling a manual for a PC-10 >on eBay: >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=164605910 >My guess is that it is an abortive non-portable PC effort. It might be the same Kaypro XT clone that was sold by Ahrend in The Netherlands. This was a very interesting machine. It had a passive backplane, and the computer itself was on two cards. 8 Mhz V20, 20MB hard disk, Hercules monochrome. Built like a tank, very reliable. An autodetecting keyboard came with it, you could plug it in an XT or an AT and it would always work. Ahrend did not sell too many of them, after a few years they went out of the computer business (they are an office furniture company originally). Kees. -- Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.stravers@iae.nl http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/ my Computer Home page http://www.vaxarchive.org/ documentation on old VAX systems http://vaxarchive.sevensages.org/ VAXarchive mirror Net-Tamer V1.08.1 - Registered From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Sep 20 09:52:59 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:25 2005 Subject: Kaypro PC-10? In-Reply-To: <19990920135946.D4E307DBD@iaehv.iae.nl> Message-ID: > It might be the same Kaypro XT clone that was sold by Ahrend in The > Netherlands. This was a very interesting machine. It had a passive > backplane, and the computer itself was on two cards. 8 Mhz V20, 20MB > hard disk, Hercules monochrome. Built like a tank, very reliable. > An autodetecting keyboard came with it, you could plug it in an XT or I have one of those, Kaypro XTpro. Nice box and well made. Allison From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Sep 20 10:35:07 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:26 2005 Subject: Here's another find... Message-ID: <13485119737.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Mark game me this board because he didn't know what it was, and he wasn't interested in it. If it is what I think it is, it's probably pretty rare. It has 4 large Xlinx chips on it, a smaller Xlinx chip, a MC68020, and a lot of glue logic. It's made by Micro Technology, Inc, copyrighted 1990, and the sticker reads "CIQBA +". The only connector coming off the board is a small 10-pin connector like the one on a DLV11J. It looks like it's a Q-Bus CI (Computer Interconnect) board, Is this right? Anyone have more info on this? Web search turned up nothing useful... ------- From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Sep 20 11:09:07 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:26 2005 Subject: Here's another find... Message-ID: <990920120907.22e00145@trailing-edge.com> >Mark game me this board because he didn't know what it was, and he wasn't >interested in it. If it is what I think it is, it's probably pretty rare. >It has 4 large Xlinx chips on it, a smaller Xlinx chip, a MC68020, and a lot >of glue logic. It's made by Micro Technology, Inc, copyrighted 1990, and the >sticker reads "CIQBA +". The only connector coming off the board is a small >10-pin connector like the one on a DLV11J. It looks like it's a Q-Bus >CI (Computer Interconnect) board, Is this right? Yes, it is. > Anyone have more info >on this? Web search turned up nothing useful... Simply put, you plug the board into your Q-bus VAX, cable it to your HSC/HSD/HSZ/star coupler, install MTI's PQDRIVER, set up the MTI and VAXCLUSTER license PAKs, and you're on the air! If you don't have a HSC/HSD/HSZ/star coupler, you don't have much need for the CIQBA, do you? :-) Tim. From vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com Mon Sep 20 13:02:17 1999 From: vaxman at oldy.crwolff.com (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:26 2005 Subject: HP/UX, Passwords, and Rock 'n Roll. In-Reply-To: <19990919.215708.247.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: Depending on the TYPE of drive, you could attach it to another system and patch the sectors containing /etc/passwd to hold a dummy password file. If it is SCSI, it is easy to attach to any system, not mount the drive (the filesystem probably isn't compatible), and read/write it through the raw device interface. In my younger (more than the statute of limitations :) days, I hacked the root account be reading the entire raw device (/dev/ra0a) and tweaking someones user account to have no password and root privledges. The /etc/passwd file showed up in three different places, so I assume it was shadowed, but I patched the shadows as well... IE: joes:ASDFADSFASDFA:1020:1001:Joe J. Schmuck:/usr/home/joes:/bin/csh is changed to: joes::0:0:This is to make the leng the same:/usr/home/joes:/bin/csh Or pasted in an encrypted password you already have... Reinstall the disk into the HP and boot it up. clint On Sun, 19 Sep 1999 jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > > Guys: > > I just scored a HP 9000/340 (I think), and the hard drive > has HP/UX loaded on it. I don't know the root password, > of course. Anybody know of a way to break into this, or > should I wipe it and start over? > > > Jeff > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > From morrison at t-iii.com Mon Sep 20 13:12:11 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:26 2005 Subject: Intel OS DOC and SOURCE Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C8380F@hobbit.t-iii.com> Not sure if this is relevant, but the Xerox S/W that comes with many scanners likes to read uncompressed TIFFs. Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [SMTP:edick@idcomm.com] > Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 10:41 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Intel OS DOC and SOURCE > > Well, I like my scanner because it has a sheetfeeder and because it's > legal > size, but, alas, it's only capable of a limited range of formats. After > all, I've had the thing for nearly ten years. Now, if you have a way to > massage the old style TIFF (targa) files into something better, perhaps > that > would be the thing to do. > > A lot depends on what requirements the TBD web host will have, and I'll > perhaps hold off until a site is found. > > OTOH, I did sort of allow that since Hans Franke is going to be at the > VCF, > though I'm not, I can arrange to get this stuff hauled out there for him > by > someone from here who's going. I will have to see whether he's willing to > get this stuff scanned and appropriately compressed, then made available > via > the web. > > Wait and see . . . > > Dick > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Smith > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > Date: Friday, September 17, 1999 6:57 PM > Subject: Re: Intel OS DOC and SOURCE > > > >"Richard Erlacher" wrote: > >> If there were a web site which would accomodate the many thousands of > pages > >> involved here I'd consider scanning the stuff and forwarding the > bitmaps > to > >> whoever wants them. Now, keep in mind that a typical TIFF of a printed > page > >> in single-bit format is about 1 MB in size, and we're looking at a > 1-2'-high > >> stack of paper with both sides printed in most cases. LEt's see. . . a > ream > >> is about 1-3/4" = 500 sheets . . . let's say 10 reams . . . so we're > looking > >> at 10 GB, right (GAWD! . . . I hope I've miscalculated!) > > > >No, for text and line art, just use TIFF Class F Group 4 compression. > >It's lossless, and for typical pages at 300 DPI it's only about 50K. > >Intricate pages somtimes wind up around 100K-120K. > > > >And although not all software can deal with that format, the Group 4 > >fax compression is one of the native formats for PDF, so I now supply > >all of my scanned documents as PDF files. For a few examples, see: > > http://www.36bit.org/dec/ > > > >Yes, I know that some people hate PDF format, and that you can't read > >them on a Commodore 64 or PDP-11/05. To which I say, too bad. I got > >many more complaints about other formats. Some people even wanted text > >pages in JPEG format, which is just about the worst conceivable format > >for them, since JPEG is a lossy format designed for continuous tone > >images. > > > >I've hacked a version of the imagepdf program from Thomas Metz's PDFLIB > >to directly import TIFF Class F Group 4 files into PDF files without > >decompressing them, so that it's not necessary to buy the $300 Acrobat > >program from Adobe. > > > >Eric From morrison at t-iii.com Mon Sep 20 13:16:08 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:26 2005 Subject: Real Apple 1 Sale! Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C8381B@hobbit.t-iii.com> GONE!! Bidding is closed for this item Bidding History (in order of bid amount): oldcomputers (14) Last bid at: $19,200.00 Date of bid: 09/19/99, 20:15:40 PDT big-surf (149) Last bid at: $19,100.00 Date of bid: 09/19/99, 21:02:05 PDT apple-1 (82) Last bid at: $9,999.00 Date of bid: 09/19/99, 19:54:44 PDT spacenut (32) Last bid at: $8,100.00 Date of bid: 09/19/99, 18:33:58 PDT ciscoboy (70) Last bid at: $7,500.00 Date of bid: 09/19/99, 17:59:25 PDT mpz@earthlink.net (13) Last bid at: $7,000.00 Date of bid: 09/18/99, 21:33:43 PDT micromd (13) Last bid at: $6,000.00 Date of bid: 09/19/99, 09:03:46 PDT wind58 (13) Last bid at: $3,100.00 Date of bid: 09/17/99, 06:37:51 PDT pepe95 (1) Last bid at: $3,000.00 Date of bid: 09/15/99, 07:12:42 PDT george@racsys.rt.rain.com (8) Last bid at: $3,000.00 Date of bid: 09/15/99, 07:52:08 PDT sieler (39) Last bid at: $1,550.66 Date of bid: 09/13/99, 16:12:14 PDT retrobyte (16) Last bid at: $1,500.00 Date of bid: 09/12/99, 18:49:11 PDT sulumor (3) Last bid at: $1,000.50 Date of bid: 09/12/99, 15:55:34 PDT geary@acm.org (19) Last bid at: $950.00 Date of bid: 09/12/99, 13:20:08 PDT *!* (46) Last bid at: $888.00 Date of bid: 09/10/99, 22:20:59 PDT tjboldt (2) Last bid at: $686.00 Date of bid: 09/10/99, 22:29:23 PDT wetmouse (177) Last bid at: $656.66 Date of bid: 09/10/99, 22:02:00 PDT cyberjobe (0) Last bid at: $600.00 Date of bid: 09/10/99, 14:17:18 PDT interneter (30) Last bid at: $575.00 Date of bid: 09/10/99, 07:45:41 PDT mtmori@sycard.com (90) Last bid at: $530.00 Date of bid: 09/10/99, 09:21:17 PDT design.fort (19) Last bid at: $510.00 Date of bid: 09/10/99, 05:21:39 PDT joro-42 (19) Last bid at: $500.00 Date of bid: 09/09/99, 23:52:13 PDT > -----Original Message----- > From: Innfogra@aol.com [SMTP:Innfogra@aol.com] > Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 11:44 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Real Apple 1 Sale! > > I think this is a real Apple 1 sale, and in my own backyard. > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=162334931 > > Less than 2 days to go. > > Paxton From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 20 12:32:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:26 2005 Subject: Help with QBus board identification In-Reply-To: <19990920012858Z13339-5668+178@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca> from "Mark Green" at Sep 19, 99 07:28:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 497 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990920/2b276ca8/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Sep 20 15:05:13 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:26 2005 Subject: Help with QBus board identification Message-ID: <990920160513.22e00159@trailing-edge.com> >> Is it possible to put a Unibus board in a qbus system, I know it >> won't work, but will it physically fit into the backplane? >Yes. Unibus and Qbus boards (and Omnibus boards for that matter) all use >the same connectors -- 36 pin (18 pins to a side) 0.125" pitch edge >connectors. A Quad-height board (4 connectors) for any of those buses is >the same physical size. > >Putting a board in the 'wrong' system normally causes other things not to >work, and may even cause damage, though. I'm afraid that I was "wrong" about the board in the system. Digging through my old Digital Pathways paperwork, I see that: TCU-50 = Q-bus TOY clock TCU-150 = Unibus TOY clock My fault for relying on the "U" as meaning "Unibus" ! Tim. From jpero at cgocable.net Mon Sep 20 00:21:45 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:26 2005 Subject: Zilog reintroduces enhanced Z80! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199909202122.RAA28542@admin.cgocable.net> Hi all, That eZ80 supposed to be 4x faster than original z80. Cool, nice to see a old dog with new tricks pop up again. It's on the slashdot.org, I saw it moments ago. Wizard From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Sep 20 16:35:51 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:26 2005 Subject: Zilog reintroduces enhanced Z80! Message-ID: <990920173551.22e0016c@trailing-edge.com> >That eZ80 supposed to be 4x faster than original z80. Cool, nice to >see a old dog with new tricks pop up again. Just 4X faster? What about the Z180, Z280, and Z380, which are even faster than that and have been available for years? And, from what I can see (at http://www.zilog.com/ and http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG19990920S0022 ) it's not an actual chip, but a design that you have to license to build into your own FPGA/VLSI design. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Mon Sep 20 17:07:39 1999 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:26 2005 Subject: Wierd card in the Macintosh... Message-ID: <13485191194.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Mac is a Mac LC, the card has no identifying marks other than it's from Apple and it's a "Apple IIe Card". It has a real funny connector on it. Any ideas? ------- From dogas at leading.net Mon Sep 20 17:18:28 1999 From: dogas at leading.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:26 2005 Subject: Super Tech DAD-1 SS-50 board with a SWTPc 6809? Message-ID: <01bf03b6$108a6620$1b00000a@devlaptop.cmsjax.com> Got one, no docs, dont know what it does... Does anyone? Thanks - Mike: dogas@leading.net From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Mon Sep 20 17:20:22 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:26 2005 Subject: Wierd card in the Macintosh... In-Reply-To: <13485191194.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Sep 20, 99 03:07:39 pm Message-ID: <199909202220.PAA05473@saul4.u.washington.edu> > Mac is a Mac LC, the card has no identifying marks other than > it's from Apple and it's a "Apple IIe Card". It has a real funny connector > on it. Any ideas? It's an Apple IIe on a card. You probably need the software to make it run. Incidentally, the card only works with the LC as far as I know. The connector may be for adding a 5 1/4" disk drive. -- Derek From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Sep 20 17:32:34 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:26 2005 Subject: Getting ready for VCF III? References: <3.0.5.32.19990915061631.00989e70@mail.bluefeathertech.com> Message-ID: <03b901bf03b8$0c9dd7c0$d3711fd1@jrkeysppt> Looking forward to meeting all you myself as this will be my first year there. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Lane To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 8:16 AM Subject: Re: Getting ready for VCF III? > At 22:31 14-09-1999 -0700, you wrote: > > >It's creeping up! A little over two weeks left... > > How well I know! Just have to get my airline tickets and I'll be all set... > > I will see the lot of you there. This year is unique as it will be the > first time I've been able to make two Bay Area trips in the same year since > VCF 1.0. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies > http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com > Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." > From morrison at t-iii.com Mon Sep 20 17:34:31 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:26 2005 Subject: Super Tech DAD-1 SS-50 board with a SWTPc 6809? Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C839F7@hobbit.t-iii.com> My first thought is to try:- Don Lancaster's The Guru's Lair http://www.tinaja.com because I seem to remember him being involved with South West Technical Products Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike [SMTP:dogas@leading.net] > Sent: Monday, September 20, 1999 3:18 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Super Tech DAD-1 SS-50 board with a SWTPc 6809? > > Got one, no docs, dont know what it does... Does anyone? > > Thanks > - Mike: dogas@leading.net > From morrison at t-iii.com Mon Sep 20 17:43:06 1999 From: morrison at t-iii.com (morrison@t-iii.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:26 2005 Subject: Super Tech DAD-1 SS-50 board with a SWTPc 6809? Message-ID: <530ABCFF6BB4D111A08400609780AB1601C83A09@hobbit.t-iii.com> PS Speaking of Don Lancaster, whatever happened to Bill Barden? Neil Morrison email:morrison@t-iii.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 20 17:43:43 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:26 2005 Subject: Wierd card in the Macintosh... In-Reply-To: <13485191194.10.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Sep 20, 99 03:07:39 pm Message-ID: <199909202243.PAA12313@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 395 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990920/0d7d2272/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Sep 20 17:50:01 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:46:26 2005 Subject: Spiders, hazard of collecting junk? Message-ID: <199909202250.SAA09531@world.std.com>