From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jul 1 00:11:44 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:54 2005 Subject: Toshiba T1200 laptop battery question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990630221057.009f5960@mcmanis.com> Except on ThinkPad batteries the on/off switch actually connects/disconnects the embedded charge monitoring microprocessor. --Chuck At 07:31 PM 6/30/99 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: >> On the little battery pack on the T1200 laptop, there is a little >> switch (breaker?) that in one position is read and on the other is closed. >> What the heck does it mean and what position does it go to for recharging. > >If it's anything like the 'switch' on most NiCd packs, it does nothing. >It's just a 2-state flag for the user. You charge the battery (with it in >either position) and flip it one way. When the battery goes flat you flip >it the other way. Then if you have a pile of batteries you know which are >charged. > >-tony > From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Fri Jul 2 00:14:01 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:55 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. In-Reply-To: from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 30, 99 11:21:11 pm Message-ID: <199907010514.WAA21957@saul6.u.washington.edu> Glen Godwin wrote: > I'll bet it was! I once caused an uproar at BP's MIS Dept. over some code I > wrote to batch transaction records from PCs to VAXen via ATT Mail ... nobody > told me the VAX would puke if it encountered a null in a data record . . . > and that was just _software_ . . . taught me a lesson: never rock the "big > iron" . . . It could be worse. Something slightly similar happened to me, except that I think I was using the vendor-supplied utilities. The system in question was a VAX at Pomona College (a small school in California). I was employed as an operator (= peon who separated and filed prinouts and mounted 9-track tapes for backups, also solved general lab problems with PCs and Macintoshes). I thought the backup program had finished using a tape so I dismounted and rewound it. The backup program had a total conniption fit, with annoying and incessant messages appearing on my console and the system manager's console. Shortly after that, the system manager had a conniption fit of his own. :) Pretty poor program design, if you ask me. Man, was that VAX ever overworked. Pomona's UNIX coverage was very limited (a NeXT and a Sun running OpenLook, neither of which anyone knew how to use) but in spite of that I decided then and there that I preferred UNIX to VMS. In fairness, Harvey Mudd (engineering school, part of the same group of colleges) had much better UNIX systems. -- Derek From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Jul 1 00:20:42 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:55 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990630222042.009707d0@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 10:20 30-06-1999 -0700, you wrote: >Classic computer collecting is rewarding on so many levels. And in so many >senses, we have a collector community relationship that rivals those of much >more established hobbies. That's why it's so important, as the hobby begins >to reach maturity, that we not lose sight of our fundamentals. While Kai and I might not see eye to eye on matters of Micro$oft, I find myself agreeing with him pretty strongly in this missive. I would like to add my own brief comments. Yes, I've heard of wonderful machines gone to the dump mere hours before I learned they were available. Yes, I've had to pass up deals on rare machines because I simply lack the space or time to give them the attention they deserve. Yes, I get weird looks and outright questions of "why?" any time I tell someone that restored MicroVAX systems are running a chunk of my own intranet. I've certainly learned from it. I've learned that I can't salvage every piece of hardware on the planet, and that I do have a lot of limitations. And yes, there have been times when I've been guilty of the very isolationist and elitist attitudes that Kai speaks of. I think we all have. The trick is not to let it go to your head. I think we're all in this hobby because we enjoy it. We each have our own areas of specialized knowledge, strengths, and weaknesses, and we've all, I think, been guilty of sneering at the Windows generation. All I can think of to say is 'get used to it.' Face it, folks: Joe Consumer Just Doesn't Care about what goes on 'under the hood.' All s/he wants to do is write that letter to Aunt Hattie, or balance their checkbook, or surf the 'net for a while. There will certainly be those who get curious, and want to start knowing more. Such people may turn to some of us because of this curiousity. The quickest way to shut them, and what may be a budding interest, down is to treat them like idiots. Remember, many have no idea that computers even existed before PCs: If they want to learn, the thing to do is get a feel for how much (or how little) they want to know, and then educate them. Giving too much information can be just as much of a turnoff as giving too little. Find that middle ground. Face it: Most folks will never understand computer collecting and restoration, and the subsequent practical use of early machines over the more modern systems. Second, you cannot teach a person something if they simply do not want to learn, no matter how important it may be that they know. It might go a lot better for us explaining ourselves to the rest of the world if we simply informed rather than judged. Save the Windows and "PeeCee" bashing for private get-togethers, however well-deserved it may be in many cases. If others who are not yet collectors want to learn of the alternatives to the Wintel duopoly, and the operating systems that drive them, they will find their way if the knowledge is made freely available. We should never have to, nor attempt, to force it down their throats. Keep the peace(es). I'll be at VCF this year if anyone wants to have a brew over this (I like the Spanish Peaks ciders)... ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jul 1 01:25:44 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:55 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990630232449.00b305e0@mcmanis.com> Not exactly. While 12 * 15 is 180, there are heat issues and such that probably limit the supply to 8 to 10 amps with a margin for overload. --Chuck At 09:44 PM 6/30/99 -0700, you wrote: >I am risking the effects of that famous quote, "Better to be thought a >fool..." > >I have a 15V DC powersupply that has no other rating on its sticker than >180 watts. Now, with my [extremely] limited knowledge, I did the simple >math and worked out that I could safely pull 12 amps out of this >PS...am I right? Does it really work this way? > >Aaron > From mbg at world.std.com Thu Jul 1 01:25:58 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:56 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. Message-ID: <199907010625.AA06409@world.std.com> >Now, I have no -- none -- experience with anything bigger than a PC, but >IIRC C & Unix were developed on a PDP-8 (or was it an 11???). I _am_ a C >fanatic so these have some historical interest for me. Can you really >have one on a desktop? Is the CPU smaller than a Toyota? Are 8" >floppies still available? Almost... C and Unix were originally developed (as far as *I* know) on a pdp-7, and later on a pdp-11. As for size, it depends on model and peripherals... For example, the 8/I I used in high school was one 6' rack and an ASR33 and it had no peripherals other than the ASR33 (we read everything in via low-speed reader and punched tape at the TTY speed). I now have a pdp-8/e (with no peripherals) and it could sit on a desk (though it would take up a significant percentage of the surface). Tomorrow I'll be getting an old DECmate (the one in a VT terminal) and a couple of 8" floppy drives... > Please advise, as this may be my next foray into collecting, if I can >find one and move it without a forklift . . . Check out the -8s on my collection page to get an idea of size (of systems with peripherals -- remember, the cabs are 6' high). http://world.std.com/~mbg/home_systems.html >P.S.: Isn't it rather sad that a micro-maker (Compaq) wound up buying >DEC _and_ Tandem? Yes... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer (Formerly with DEC for ~20 years) +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From peter at joules.enterprise-plc.com Thu Jul 1 05:25:24 1999 From: peter at joules.enterprise-plc.com (Pete Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: What is a Sirius? Message-ID: <000501bec3ac$09a4f770$b8c348c2@DROOPY> Just been offered one. Has anyone any idea what it is? Regards Pete From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Jul 1 05:41:58 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: Strange PDP card available References: <19990630.224117.237.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <377B45F6.5B7B7378@hotoffice.com> Acording to the current ADAC catalog: Q-Bus compatible products 1664ATTL 64 line TTL compatible input/output card. Can provide any combination of inputs and outputs in increments of 8 by jumper control. All outputs latched. Program control interface included. Can drive at least 12' of cable. Can sink 20ma on each output. Size 8-1/2 X 5". list $515 Steve Robertson jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > > This is an adac corp. model 1664ATTL double-wide > board. I have no idea what buss this is for, > but I think it is some kind of data aquisition > thingie. > > Have no idea if it works; anybody want it? > $3 plus postage. > > Jeff > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt Thu Jul 1 06:50:40 1999 From: yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt (Rodrigo Ventura) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: LSI-11 Message-ID: Does anyone have any info concerning LSI-11 cards? It seems they are single-board versions of the PDP-11 CPU. Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura *** Teaching Assistant and MSc. Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, Portugal *** PGP Public Key available on my homepage: *** http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Key fingerprint = 0C 0A 25 58 46 CF 14 99 CF 9C AF 9E 10 02 BB 2A From Anthony.Eros at COMPAQ.com Thu Jul 1 07:47:28 1999 From: Anthony.Eros at COMPAQ.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: What is a Sirius? Message-ID: It was also marketed as the Victor 9000. > ---------- > From: Pete Joules[SMTP:peter@joules.enterprise-plc.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:25 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: What is a Sirius? > > Just been offered one. Has anyone any idea what it is? > > Regards > Pete > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jul 1 07:50:13 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: LSI-11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1 Jul 1999, Rodrigo Ventura wrote: > > Does anyone have any info concerning LSI-11 cards? > It seems they are single-board versions of the PDP-11 CPU. > > Cheers, News flash. In the PDP-11 line the Falcon and related KXT-11 cards were indeed single board version of the PDP-11 for embeddded controls use. I'd guess there are not less that 100,000 of them in service. They were base on the T-11 cpu which is a 40pin dip version of the LSI-11 cpu though faster. Allison > From Anthony.Eros at COMPAQ.com Thu Jul 1 07:56:44 1999 From: Anthony.Eros at COMPAQ.com (Eros, Anthony) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: What is a Sirius? Message-ID: It was also marketed as the Victor 9000. It was an 8086-based box which ran DOS and CP/M, but wasn't really IBM-compatible. Hi-res, monochrome graphics and a (usually) 10 mb hard drive. The system was designed by Chuck Peddle, who I think was involved with the design of the 6800 and 6502 microprocessors. -- Tony > ---------- > From: Pete Joules[SMTP:peter@joules.enterprise-plc.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:25 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: What is a Sirius? > > Just been offered one. Has anyone any idea what it is? > > Regards > Pete > From ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu Thu Jul 1 08:46:01 1999 From: ckaiser at oa.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: What is a Sirius? In-Reply-To: <000501bec3ac$09a4f770$b8c348c2@DROOPY> from "Pete Joules" at Jul 1, 99 11:25:24 am Message-ID: <199907011346.GAA07240@oa.ptloma.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 546 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990701/3da2394d/attachment.ksh From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Jul 1 09:11:41 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: Strange PDP card available Message-ID: <19990701.091142.207.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 06:41:58 -0400 Steve Robertson writes: > Acording to the current ADAC catalog: > > Q-Bus compatible products > > 1664ATTL > > 64 line TTL compatible input/output card. Can provide any > combination of > inputs and outputs in increments of 8 by jumper control. All outputs > latched. Program control interface included. Can drive at least 12' > of > cable. Can sink 20ma on each output. Size 8-1/2 X 5". > > list $515 ^^^ Yeek! Oh well. If anyone needs/wants this, my offer stands, as I sure as hell can't use it; and I'm not in this for the $$$. Jeff > > Steve Robertson > > > jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > > > > This is an adac corp. model 1664ATTL double-wide > > board. I have no idea what buss this is for, > > but I think it is some kind of data aquisition > > thingie. > > > > Have no idea if it works; anybody want it? > > $3 plus postage. > > > > Jeff > > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From max82 at surfree.com Thu Jul 1 08:46:15 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: <990630193003.23a00fd4@trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: >I'm a little uncertain why it's causing any hostility. As Kai pointed >out, there's thousands of historic and interesting computers and >peripherals hitting the dumpster every day, and if increased public >awareness causes some of these machines to be saved, so much the better. Well, because people want the Altairs as well as the C-64s. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From max82 at surfree.com Thu Jul 1 08:49:02 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >The phrase "prices...out of reach of people who can handle these machines" >sounds like you don't consider anyone with money to be technically >competent. I'm sure that's not what you meant... right? The people who can pay these prices will now be able to get these computers whether they are competent or not. Most of the people on this list, however, will no longer be able to get these machines. That is why the people on this list are becoming upset. A shorter way of putting it is that the machine will be sold to the highest bidder, not to the person who can preserve the machine best. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jul 1 09:54:56 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. Message-ID: <01e601bec3d2$07872b40$7a4a883e@dangermouse> Hi Glen, >I _will_ name them -- I work with Windows 9x every day, and it's a >horrible travesty, a poor excuse for an operating system.... Don't get me started on WIn'95....I've had several months of headaches caused by THAT OS since I upgraded my PC. >....It saddens me to see that people accept this crap.... Quite, I'd be using Linux right now if I could get versions of the software I need to use for it. >Why do the Brits hate the BBC Micro? Didn't know we did....I love the machine. My favourite after the Atari 8-bits, great for hacking around on and devoid of the major design compromises that made hacking my old ZX-81 such a pain in the butt (I wouldn't care if I never saw another Sinclair machine as long as I live). > Please advise, as this may be my next foray into collecting, if I can find >one and move it without a forklift . . . Minis come in all shapes and sizes, I'm concentrating on minis and workstations myself now (getting rid of just about all of my micros save for the Ataris, a BBC Master, a CBM P-500, a CBM 8296-D and an HP-150). You can get nice compact systems if you look around, especially when it comes to PDP-11s and (Micro)VAXen. In fact I picked up an IBM mini last week, though it's probably too new to be on topic in here, an AS/400 model 9404 which is not too much bigger than a pair of PCs in full tower cases.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jul 1 09:45:55 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: HP3000 Message-ID: <01e401bec3d2$060cc040$7a4a883e@dangermouse> Hi, > The second PA-RISC machine from HP. The HP-UX version is >the HP 9000/850. The MPE (not UNIX) version is the HP 3000/950. >So, if it says 950, it started life as an MPE machine.... I don't suppose anyone in the UK is dumping one of these? I used to support several of these machines in a previous job and would love to add one to my collection. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) Not to mention HP certified(!) MPE/ix system operator.... peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jul 1 09:09:15 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: What is a Sirius? Message-ID: <01e301bec3d2$0544dc60$7a4a883e@dangermouse> Hi Pete, > Just been offered one. Has anyone any idea what >it is? Lovely old machine, designed by Chuck Peddle IIRC. It's also known as the "Victor 9000". Usually runs MS-Dos, though CP/M-86 was also available. Supplied with either 128K or 256K RAM on the motherboard and expandable to 768K via a plug in card. The floppy only model had twin 5.25" floppy drives. They used standard 360K floppies but could write up to 1.2Mb to each disc (GCR encoding and variable rotational speed), there may have been a model which used 600K single sided drives too but don't quote me. The HD model had one of the floppies replaced by an internal hard drive. I think 10Mb was the biggest they were ever shipped with but, IIRC, the controller would handle a 20Mb drive. Interestingly the machine used an MFM drive, connected to a SASI to MFM bridge card, in turn connected to a SASI interface card which sat in one of the expansion slots. It had lots of neat features, such as the built in CODEC (great sound for it's day) and the ability to adjust the display's contrast and brightness directly from the keyboard. Yeah....I've got one, but without a version of DOS that will see the hard drive it's just sat in a corner right now. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jul 1 09:51:46 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: Data General/NeXT/Philips Message-ID: <01e501bec3d2$06ce89a0$7a4a883e@dangermouse> Can anyone point me at some sources of information on Data General, NeXT and/or Philips (minis). I'm looking to round off my collection by adding something from one or more of these product lines but know little about them so I don't really know what to look out for. In particular I've heard mention of a DG MicroNOVA which sounds like it might fit the bill in terms of size. TIA. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Jul 1 10:16:00 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Jun 30, 99 09:44:02 pm Message-ID: <199907011516.IAA06165@fraser.sfu.ca> Yup. P=EI, Power=Voltage * Current Kevin > > I am risking the effects of that famous quote, "Better to be thought a > fool..." > > I have a 15V DC powersupply that has no other rating on its sticker than > 180 watts. Now, with my [extremely] limited knowledge, I did the simple > math and worked out that I could safely pull 12 amps out of this > PS...am I right? Does it really work this way? > > Aaron > > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jul 1 10:18:47 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990701101847.011836e0@vpwisfirewall> At 09:49 AM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote: > >The people who can pay these prices will now be able to get these >computers whether they are competent or not. Most of the people on this >list, however, will no longer be able to get these machines. That is why >the people on this list are becoming upset. A shorter way of putting it is >that the machine will be sold to the highest bidder, not to the person who >can preserve the machine best. I disagree, and I'm sure many on the list would agree: you find the best machines, most often, by searching for sources that aren't advertising, and that probably aren't even selling. If you're price sensitive, you'll be happier and wealthier by finding machines that are ready to be given away. - John From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 1 11:09:51 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby References: Message-ID: <377B92CF.C0B6F4BF@rain.org> Max Eskin wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > >The phrase "prices...out of reach of people who can handle these machines" > >sounds like you don't consider anyone with money to be technically > >competent. I'm sure that's not what you meant... right? > > The people who can pay these prices will now be able to get these > computers whether they are competent or not. Most of the people on this > list, however, will no longer be able to get these machines. That is why > the people on this list are becoming upset. A shorter way of putting it is > that the machine will be sold to the highest bidder, not to the person who > can preserve the machine best. A rather biased and/or elitist way of looking at things. First, if someone pays a small fortune for a machine (you define "small fortune"), it is VERY unlikely they will not preserve it. Additionally, they will most likely be able to afford to have someone who knows what they are doing go through the machine. Second, if someone is *really* interested in lets say an Altair, it is not difficult to build one especially since the schematics are readily available. Granted, the minis would be more difficult to build, but most of these prices we are seeing are for microcomuters. Another thing that hasn't been brought up in this discussion yet is the minor detail of museums. With the appropriate safeguards, people give and loan collections to museums for display. Granted that is not the same as using it, but people can still see them (Moffett Field for instance.) From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Jul 1 11:24:29 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby Message-ID: <19990701.112431.207.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> This will draw alot of flames, and may upset certain people. Please send personal attacks to me directly. On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:20:38 -0700 Kai Kaltenbach writes: > Classic computer collecting is rewarding on so many levels. And in > so many senses, we have a collector community relationship that rivals those > of much more established hobbies. That's why it's so important, as the > hobby begins to reach maturity, that we not lose sight of our fundamentals. But you've missed the one 'fundamental' that uniquely gives our hobby its true appeal: Our hobby exists (existed) purely for its own sake. No strings, wire, or unneeded baggage. It existed purely for the joy of computing at its most base level, and the aquisition of knowledge of the science. > Lately, there has been a disturbing trend towards isolationism and > elitism among our flock, up to and including outright hostility. This has > got to stop. Hostile? Yer damned right. We're on the defensive now. The 'marketplace' is poised to fundamentally change what I perceive as the original charter of the computing hobby. > Now, as Dennis Miller says, I don't want to get off on a rant here. > As much as anyone else, I'd like a world full of retired aerospace > engineers with garages full of free Altairs. I'd also like the IRS > to abolish my income taxes and give me a free Ferrari. It's just not > going to work that way, folks. You hit a raw nerve here, buddy boy. I don't *want* garages of free Altairs (or whatever). All I want is to be able to purchase the material that is of interest to me at a *reasonable* price. Now the retired Aerospace Engineer thinks he can make a fortune off his old computers. Piss. > Lashing out at people who want to publicize our hobby is like > sitting in the nosebleed section of your hometown baseball stadium > and hoping to god that your team loses big so you can afford better > tickets next year. This to me, clearly says you have no clue as to what is at stake here. From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 11:33:43 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby Message-ID: <19990701163343.1026.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> --- CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com wrote: > I'm a little uncertain why it's causing any hostility. As Kai pointed > out, there's thousands of historic and interesting computers and > peripherals hitting the dumpster every day, and if increased public > awareness causes some of these machines to be saved, so much the better. > > Admittedly, most of the machines getting tossed aren't necessarily > in anyone's "top 100 collectible" list, but that doesn't make them any less > interesting IMHO. Case-in-point: just today, a friend is collecting half-a-dozen machines from a local high-school that's closing. He thought they were PS/1's, but from his description, they might be PC-AT's (he's not a collector). He found out about them when he was there to bid on shop equipment. The workmen told him that if someone didn't pick them up today, they were going to "throw them out"... out in this case is literally - out the second story window into an industrial dumpster. I asked him to grab these for me, sight unseen, just because I might be able to scavenge the disk drives (if 360K) for my Kaypro, not because these are likely to be any "Top 100" list. Even commodity hardware is work rescuing if only to keep the older stuff going. I have a small box of 5Mb and 10Mb drives for that same reason. I was amazed/disgusted at the $510 Mac 512K, though, mostly at the seller for not exactly lying, but not fully representing the truth. Caveat Emptor. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Jul 1 11:40:46 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:57 2005 Subject: Data General/NeXT/Philips Message-ID: <19990701.114055.207.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> In terms of pure cool, and collectability, I always felt that the DG AViiON would be a great addition to any collection. Cool Points: 1. The ultimate Orphan. One of a small handfull of machines to use Moto's 88000 CPU chipset. 2. DG's been encouraging its customers to 'upgrade' to their newer Intel offerings, so 'obsolete' hardware can be had fairly cheap. 3. Runs DG/UX (subspecies of UNIX). Can't get much cooler than that. 4. Came in double, and quad CPU configurations. Mondo cool. Caveats: 1. Make sure you get the software with it, as replacements are hard to come by, and ludicrously expensive. 2. Make sure you get the keyboards, mice, crt, etc. These were unique to the AViiON, IIRC. 3. No free operating system available for it (no LINUX or *BSD). Bummer. Just my $.02. Jeff On Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:51:46 +0100 "Peter Pachla" writes: > Can anyone point me at some sources of information on Data General, > NeXT and/or > Philips (minis). > > I'm looking to round off my collection by adding something from one > or more of > these product lines but know little about them so I don't really > know what to > look out for. > > In particular I've heard mention of a DG MicroNOVA which sounds like > it might > fit the bill in terms of size. > > TIA. > > > TTFN - Pete. > > -- > Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. > Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers > (esp DEC) > > peter.pachla@virgin.net | > peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | > peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | > www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk > -- > > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From edick at idcomm.com Thu Jul 1 12:02:51 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby Message-ID: <000601bec3e3$a05e9c20$71483cd1@fuj03> This argument is getting to where it's pretty silly. I don't see how anyone can complain about buying used computer hardware for considerably less than it cost when new. The mythical "free Altair" which pops up again and again is generally sold, even in "better than new" (properly assembled and functional) condition for significantly less than what it cost new, in "real" dollars. -- YES -- even on eBay! The typical PDP8 owned by persons in this particular interest group were certainly not purchased for what they cost new, even in inflated dollars, so I really can't see what the complaint is. Sure, some people are able, and, some, misguided though they may seem to be, even willing to pay more than I think they should for a given item. To them, I sell what I can. In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 each, functionally tested and aligned, plus the estimated cost of packaging and shipping, since I don't want more work on top of the alignment and testing, estimated by Mailboxes, etc, which is where I'll have them boxed and shipped. I've offered these same drives to people, as is, for just the cost of shipping, and most wouldn't pay even for the shipping. When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. The last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to me, a typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the same, and a terminal cost $750. If people wanted more than that for these devices, even though they were in perfectly functional and cosmetically perfect condition, I could understand the complaints. I won't be convinced that the prices being paid at auction, publicity or not, for "old, used, obsolete" computers or component are unreasonable until someone shows me a similarly pristine '55 Thunderbird that's going unsold because its price is over half what it cost new. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey l Kaneko To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 10:36 AM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >This will draw alot of flames, and may upset certain people. >Please send personal attacks to me directly. > >On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:20:38 -0700 Kai Kaltenbach >writes: >> Classic computer collecting is rewarding on so many levels. And in >> so many senses, we have a collector community relationship that rivals >those >> of much more established hobbies. That's why it's so important, as the > >> hobby begins to reach maturity, that we not lose sight of our >fundamentals. > >But you've missed the one 'fundamental' that uniquely gives our hobby >its true appeal: Our hobby exists (existed) purely for its own sake. >No strings, wire, or unneeded baggage. It existed purely for the joy >of computing at its most base level, and the aquisition of knowledge >of the science. > >> Lately, there has been a disturbing trend towards isolationism and >> elitism among our flock, up to and including outright hostility. This >has >> got to stop. > >Hostile? Yer damned right. We're on the defensive now. The >'marketplace' >is poised to fundamentally change what I perceive as the original charter >of the computing hobby. > >> Now, as Dennis Miller says, I don't want to get off on a rant here. >> As much as anyone else, I'd like a world full of retired aerospace >> engineers with garages full of free Altairs. I'd also like the IRS >> to abolish my income taxes and give me a free Ferrari. It's just not >> going to work that way, folks. > >You hit a raw nerve here, buddy boy. I don't *want* garages of free >Altairs (or whatever). All I want is to be able to purchase the material > >that is of interest to me at a *reasonable* price. Now the retired >Aerospace >Engineer thinks he can make a fortune off his old computers. Piss. > >> Lashing out at people who want to publicize our hobby is like >> sitting in the nosebleed section of your hometown baseball stadium >> and hoping to god that your team loses big so you can afford better >> tickets next year. > >This to me, clearly says you have no clue as to what is at stake here. >>From my perspective, it's more like lashing out at land speculators >who want to parcel out what was once tribal land, the parcels by the >lake commanding the highest prices. What was once an almost free and >accessable resource, now belongs only to the elite who can pay the price. > > >> Get OVER it. Nobody understands our hobby, it's next to impossible to >> properly insure, > >Insure. Huh, yeah right. Why would you want to insure something unless >you spent BIG BUCK$ on it? > >> there's far too little real museum space devoted to >> classic computers, > >Whaddaya mean by 'real museum space'?!? You mean like in the Deutsche >Museum? The LA Museum of Sci & Ind.? The Guggenheim?!?! Tell ya what. >When these 'heavies' get real serious about computing engines built >during *my* lifetime, I'm outta here. No way I'll be able to afford it >then. > >> hundreds of historic pieces are being tossed in the >> dumpster every day, > >As tragic as this situation is, ss long as the possibility for this >exists, there will be hope for the hobbyist with little or no money >(this includes *most* of our young people). > >> and you want to keep the whole thing a big in-clique secret. >> Does this make any freaking sense to you? > >Yes. This hobby is what it is because it was populated almost >exclusively >by what I will refer to as 'true believers': Guys with little (or no) >money but alot of patience and a solid *commitment* to make the machines >live. > >Now there are amongst us speculators who don't truly believe; >they don't practice the true faith, and don't care to. All they >know is that computers have become a 'hot' collectible, and they want >a piece of the action. It is these that we must oppose. > >> Every time I hear somebody say something like, "Are you going to >> sell that to a REAL collector at a decent price or are you going to >> WHORE it on EBAY?" I just want to gag. > >I see the prices, and *I* just want to gag. The continued exposure >of our hobby on forums like E-BAy will only cause prices to rise. Very >soon, many of us will be priced out . . . > >> Amazing as this may seem, the people on eBay deserve this stuff as >> much as you do, mr. nose-in-the-air elitist. > >Maybe they do. But they have the money; many of us 'tribesmen' don't. >It seems you've mis-applied the 'eliteist' label, in this case. > >> Oh sure, who wouldn't want to buy the thing at a token "collector >price" >> and save a bunch of money, but don't make the seller feel like an ass >> because he wants to participate in a free-market economy. > >We can't stop folks from auctioning off stuff on e-bay; that's their >right. ALl I know is, is that prices are going up, and e-bay isn't >helping the matter. As far as I'm concerned, E-Bay is hurting our >hobbyist 'way of life', not enhancing it. > >> And quit calling the people on eBay "morons". OK, sure, the guy who >> bid $510 for the "signature Macintosh" was a few cans short of a >> six-pack, but if you bothered to follow up on the auction, you'd notice > >> that most of the bidders pulled out once they caught a clue. And > >I try to ignore some of the stupidity on this planet. Fortunately, >there are still (for the moment) plenty of cheap MAC's to go around. > >> everybody who pays what YOU consider a high price for a genuinely >> interesting piece of hardware is not an idiot. People pay money for >> something because they want it. So, you're basically upset that >> somebody wants it more than you do? > >SO you're convinced that someone with a pile of money to throw at >a 'hobby' simply wants it more than someone who's broke??!! Sheesh. >It must be nice to rich, so you feel justified in making implications >like that. > >IN the hobby I knew, money was only a very small part of the equation. >Used to be, all I needed was a few dollars, some basic tools, and a >little luck. Now I need *deep* pockets, too. I'm upset that the >'elite' is putting my favorite passtime out of my reach. > >> And while we're at it, what's with all this "some rich bastard >> overbid me" crap. If I went through all the classiccmp posts about >rich >> executives, rich internet IPO participants, rich employees of big >computer >> companies, and replaced all the occurrences of "rich" with "black" or >> "hispanic", the vintage computer festival would look like a Klan rally. > > >What can I say? This used to be a 'poor mans' hobby. I'm seeing one >segment being displaced and disenfranchised by another. Yep. > > "I'm the *angriest* computer nerd in America!" > >> America has always stood for a place where anybody can get rich if they > >> work hard enough. Are you upset that somebody else got there first? > >No, I'm upset that there is the pretense of a level playing field. >It *was* nearly level at one time. It isn't anymore. > >> There is a lot of assumption that, when someone pays a high price for >> a classic computer, that they A) don't know as much about it as you >> do, and B) don't care as much about it as you do, when the reverse is >> probably the case. Look, just because you refused that job opportunity > >> at Apple in 1983 because you thought the Lisa was a bomb and your >> business selling print drivers for daisywheels was doing so well, >> DOESN'T mean you're an idealist. > >All it means is that you were a little short-sighted. > >> Because somebody outbid you doesn't mean they deserve it less than >> you do. Maybe they have more cash, maybe they were just willing to bid >a >> higher perecentage of their income than you were. Heck, somebody with >cash >> probably is going to care for the item better. A good percentage of >> the purported idealists complaining about high classic computer prices >> have an Altair on their kitchen table with coffee mug rings on the top. > > >Gosh darnit, you got us there. Us pore folk generally don't have the >the fancy display and storage facilities as do our more well-heeled >bretheren. But then again, for us, these are objects of affection; we >like to keep them close to us (the kitchen or livingroom seems >appropriate). > >> Look, I'm impressed that you're reading this post through a custom >TCP/IP >> stack that you wrote for a Kaypro II. If you did that for the fun of >it, more >> power to you. If you think that doing your daily correspondence on a >dot >> matrix printer makes you a better classic computer collector than the >rest >> of us, that's something else. > >It doesn't make us better, just more joyful. > >> It's like that guy who coated the entire exterior of his 1952 >Oldsmobile >> with tiny rhinestones over a grueling 5-year period -- impressive, but >> the man obviously had too much time on his hands. > >But if it's something special to *him* isn't that part of what this hobby > >was (is) all about? > >> It is NOT necessary to have a Wozniak beard, live in a geodesic dome >> house, and drive a Volkswagen Thing to appreciate classic computers. > >Maybe not, but the way it's going, you'll have to be able to afford >the aforementioned house, and a *mint* example of the aforementioned >car before you can even *consider* having a classic computer for your >yourself. > >> Wake up, open up, embrace the world's coming to know our hobby. > >True believers only. Sorry. Greed and commercialism are threatening to >corrupt our 'society'. Maybe there's nothing we can do about it, >but we won't go quietly. . . > >> Because otherwise, one day you're going to wake up and find that not a >> single schoolchildren remembers any of this history, because somebody >> started making 6800 assembler coding an entrance requirement to the >museums. > >True believers will always welcome initiates. But only the truly >committed will mature and contribute. These are the ones who will >make our hobby live. If you shut these out by raising the price >of admission, then our hobby (as we now know it) will certainly die. > > >Jeff > > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jul 1 14:29:04 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: What is a Sirius? In-Reply-To: <000501bec3ac$09a4f770$b8c348c2@DROOPY> Message-ID: <199907011730.TAA25554@horus.mch.sni.de> > Just been offered one. Has anyone any idea what it is? A nice looking well designed 8086 box - 128-768 KB mem, monochrome high res graphics and two FD drives or one 10 MB HD and one FD (all full height). The disks could read 'standard' 360 K MFM or some secial CGR (?) format for up to 1 MB (?). As an additional genuine feature a Codec (Basicly a kind of special A/D D/A converter for sound frequency range - as used for ISDN) was integrated - thus allowing _high_ quality (mono) sound output. No general purpuse I/O bzw. enhancement bus concept - But if we look for the head behind, Chuck Peddle, this concept becomes somewhat familar :) (Did I mention the _big_ highly usable keyboard ?) Eventualy the Machine was renamed to 'Victor'. Also a compatible Portable was availabe, named 'Vicky' (Did anybady tell you that Compaq startet the x86 Shlep-tops ? In fact, the machine (plus slots) was exactly what the IBM-PC should have been :( - both macines came to the market about the same time, and at least over here in Europe, the IBM had no easy stand against the Sirius. One of the earlyest WYSIWYG publishing systems (for real publishers :) was based on the Sirius. Definitly a must have for the collection. Servus Hans Oh, yes, OS of choice was CP/M 86, and later on MS-DOS -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jul 1 12:45:03 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: <000601bec3e3$a05e9c20$71483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990701124503.0107a2b0@vpwisfirewall> At 11:02 AM 7/1/99 -0600, you wrote: > >In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at >$565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was >in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. I suppose there must be a web site, somewhere, that would let you enter a date and a US dollar amount, and would show you the equivalent value in today's dollars, accounting for actual inflation, etc. in the intervening years. Which reminds me, when I was in high school, we sold candy bars to fund the purchase of a few K of RAM for the IMSAI as well as a floppy drive. >I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 each, Similarly, you'd think there would be a web site somewhere to remind people of the rapid devaluation of the value of computer equipment - say, perhaps the flip side of Moore's Law, that shows how simply purchasing and opening the box of a new computer causes a significant drop in value, followed by subsequent halvings of resale value every six months, until it quickly reaches the "nuisance fee" level mentioned above, where the cost of shipping and packing seems to exceed the street price. - John From arfonrg at texas.net Thu Jul 1 13:04:39 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: Apple //e, TRS-80 M4, IBM xstation 120 & a Socrates toy. Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990701130439.0097f100@207.207.0.212> Hello all, Goodwill had a $20.00 grab fest yesterday and I snagged a haul including a bunch of Apple //e's, IBM Xstation 120, Atari 800 and a TRS-80 M4. Problem: A //e, Trs-80 M4: some of the key caps are broken on these, anyone know where I can find replacement parts? Atari 800: not broken, just missing the #8 keycap. Any clues for replacement? IBM Xstation: What is the processor? What OS does it run? The Socrates toy: I found one... I vaguely remember it from some years back... I gave it to a couple that seemed to want it badly. What is it's collectable significance? A ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Jul 1 12:46:26 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: <199907010232.TAA07653@civic.hal.com> References: <82c018b6.24ac2b0c@aol.com> Message-ID: >> > I doubt these people are just buying these things >> > to spray paint them, green and red, to use as lawn ornaments. >> >> Wow! Sounds to me like the perfect application for a C64 ;>) Why would a Local Area Wireless Network need an ornament anyway? From mikeford at netwiz.net Thu Jul 1 13:06:14 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >>The phrase "prices...out of reach of people who can handle these machines" >>sounds like you don't consider anyone with money to be technically >>competent. I'm sure that's not what you meant... right? > >The people who can pay these prices will now be able to get these >computers whether they are competent or not. Most of the people on this >list, however, will no longer be able to get these machines. That is why >the people on this list are becoming upset. A shorter way of putting it is >that the machine will be sold to the highest bidder, not to the person who >can preserve the machine best. Just an observation, but the people on this list seem to have a LOT more trouble with storage than accquisition. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jul 1 13:10:55 1999 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: 1975 Dollars (was RE: State of the Hobby) Message-ID: I grabbed the Consumer Price Index history off the web, pasted into Excel, and applied the percentage changes cumulative from 1975. One 1998 dollar = $2.95 in 1975 dollars (ouch, those Carter administration years! Thank goodness for Greenspan) Therefore, an assembled Altair 8800 with 4x2K static RAM, serial, parallel, cassette, and bus expansion, $1880 in 1975 dollars, would be the equivalent of $5546 today. An Apple Lisa base configuration ($9995 in 1983 dollars) would be $16,169 today. Kai -----Original Message----- From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust@threedee.com] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 10:45 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: State of the Hobby At 11:02 AM 7/1/99 -0600, you wrote: > >In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at >$565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was >in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. I suppose there must be a web site, somewhere, that would let you enter a date and a US dollar amount, and would show you the equivalent value in today's dollars, accounting for actual inflation, etc. in the intervening years. Which reminds me, when I was in high school, we sold candy bars to fund the purchase of a few K of RAM for the IMSAI as well as a floppy drive. >I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 each, Similarly, you'd think there would be a web site somewhere to remind people of the rapid devaluation of the value of computer equipment - say, perhaps the flip side of Moore's Law, that shows how simply purchasing and opening the box of a new computer causes a significant drop in value, followed by subsequent halvings of resale value every six months, until it quickly reaches the "nuisance fee" level mentioned above, where the cost of shipping and packing seems to exceed the street price. - John From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Jul 1 13:08:57 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (Jeffrey l Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby Message-ID: <19990701.130857.217.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:02:51 -0600 "Richard Erlacher" writes: > This argument is getting to where it's pretty silly. PLease, hear me out on this . . . > I don't see how anyone can complain about buying used computer > hardware for considerably less than it cost when new. OKay, $500 or $1000 is alot less than the $4k+ these things cost when they were new, but $500 is *still* alot of money for most people, certainly for one who's just starting out. > The mythical "free Altair" which pops up again and again is > generally sold, even in "better than new" (properly assembled > and functional) condition for significantly less than what it > cost new, in "real" dollars. -- YES -- even on eBay! But e-bay makes the difference between 'easily affordable' and 'hopelessly out of reach'. > The typical PDP8 owned by persons in this particular interest group > were certainly not purchased for what they cost new, even in inflated > dollars, so I really can't see what the complaint is. The complaint is that what was once easily within reach, may not be in the future . . . > Sure, some people are able, and, some, misguided though they may > seem to be, even willing to pay more than I think they should for > a given item. To them, I sell what I can. No matter how inexpensive, I does cost *something* to do this hobby afterall; so . . . > In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned > off at $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and > that was in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy > bar. As I said, that's still alot of money. The cool thing about this hobby was that you didn't need alot to get cool stuff. That's starting to change. > I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for > $5 each, functionally tested and aligned, plus the estimated cost of > packaging and shipping, since I don't want more work on top of the > alignment and testing, estimated by Mailboxes, etc, which is where I'll > have them boxed and shipped. I've offered these same drives to people, > as is, for just the cost of shipping, and most wouldn't pay even for > the shipping. Now see, this is what I've been talking about. You supply a scarce commodity (in working condition I might add) for a reasonable price. You are actively trying to make a contribution to our hobbyist community. > When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. > The last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to me, > a typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the > same, and a terminal cost $750. Yep. Big money. Definitely not something you do casually. BY 1993 though, you could get these for next to nothing. Suddenly, you could persue the hobby you couldn't afford ten years before. > If people wanted more than that for these devices, even though they > were in perfectly functional and cosmetically perfect condition, I could > understand the complaints. I won't be convinced that the prices being paid at > auction, publicity or not, for "old, used, obsolete" computers or component > are unreasonable until someone shows me a similarly pristine '55 > Thunderbird that's going unsold because its price is over half what it cost new. Well, automobile collecting is definitely a rich-man's hobby; which sure leaves me out. I just find it painful to see our hobby go the same way. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Jul 1 15:54:52 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. In-Reply-To: References: <14c12893.24aaf0e8@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 30, 99 00:02:48 am Message-ID: <199907011855.UAA28542@horus.mch.sni.de> Tony: > > but are you saying that the ZX80/81 was "much less significant?" Perhaps I > > misunderstand. > Let me explain. > The PERQ is very closely related to the Xerox D-machines. In fact if you > compare the PERQ CPU board with the Daybreak CPU board you can find > similarities in the logic. The I/O structure is similar. So is the > (native) filesystem. Etc. And thus it's related to the Alto. > Thus we have : > Alto----+----->D machines ----> Apple Lisa ----> Macintosh ----> MS Windows > | | Close similarities > +-----> PERQ > I don't want to imply a direct technical link here. But it's clear that the > Macintosh was influenced by the Lisa. And that Windows was influenced by > the Macintosh. Objections! IMHO Windows was _not_ influenced by the mac - at least not at all before 3.x, and not heavyly before 9x. Let me explain: If you remember Windows 1.x it is clear to everyone that this is just a Sidekick clone with a nice user gimmick called MS-Mouse (and as single new feature a way to invoke programms in a sub shell - but thats more related to the implementation strategy). Ad the mouse is, by any means, not a genuine idea of the D-Machines. I belive at MS (at least within the management) they had recogniced the mouse, but no idea what to dy, other than it may sell well and add a new 'we are top techie' flavour to them. Only with the growing success of GEM, a true MacOS/Finder clone, they tealized they would need something alike to regain their place behind the wheel. Now the 3.0 was born (and the successfull bug fix version of 3.1 - If you buy a Microsoft product, always look for the x.1 version, never ever buy the the x.0 :). This was a pure reaction to the GEM success - no (direct) Mac influence at all (After all, Apple had excluded themself from the race with insisting in beeing a hardware company, and not a software company). The picture might look like: The Mouse ------------------------------; | SideKick -'-> Windows 1.x/2.x -;-> MS Win 3.x -;-> MS Win 9x | ,-> GEM -' | Alto -+-> D machines -> Apple Lisa -> Original Mac -'----------> MacOS >7.0 -'-> ... | | Close similarities +-> PERQ That's the way of influence as far as I can see it. (And for the Win 1.x/2.x thing, belive me - I had to do Win2.x, GEM and Mac development in the 80s) > For better or worse, the GUI (in particular MS Windows) has a major > influence on today's computing. More so than (IMHO) the influence of > cheap home computers. In other words, had the ZX80, etc never existed > (but keeping the IBM PC etc), then computing today wouldn't be that > different. Had the PERQ/Dmachines, etc never existed, then things would > most likely have been somewhat different. You may be right on the 'theoretical' part, the way of UI evolution and development, but for the Computer as an accepted tool, and as an every days thingy, for the evolution of the _user_, and of course for the development of the computer industrie, I belive the ZX 80/81/ Spectrum machines (and the C64 after 1985) had more importance than anything else. Where the D-Machines did employ some people at a few big companies, some few developers, and only a few users ever had contact, the cheap charly computers lauched thousends of small hard- ware-add-on-companies, computer shops, ten thousends of developers, and millions of beople, who could own a computer for the first time, see that it's just a pice of plastic, with no 'holy' aura of truth or whatever - just a tool. And this only in Europ - now add half the east, from DDR until Sibiria, where these computers did support the ideas of uncounted hobbyists as self made clones (there has been an 'official' brochure in the DDR, exactly explaning how to build your own ZX Spectrum clone from scratch - only called 'industrie standard home computer' in this case :) And don't forget all these Taiwan based (and often Japan owned) companies that did build ZX clones - And don't underestimate the impact in other, oftern third world, countries, where they had an impact, not known over here - just remember this bunch of systems in Brasil > > Millions of people worldwide were introduced to computers by these machines > > (and their Timex cousins). Because of the low price, people bought them to > Are you suggesting that if there hadn't been cheap home computers, then > there wouldn't have been IBM PCs? I am not sure I can agree with that. No, me'n either, but maybe the impact of the PC had been different - these computers did pave the road to use other systems more willingly not just by order of ones boss. > > see if they "liked computing" -- if not, they could throw them away and only > > be out $100 or so. > Sure. I am not saying that the ZX80 had no effect at all. The ZX80 does > have historical significance, and it is worth collecting (well, I can > understand why people collect them...). However, I am not convinced that > it has 10 times the importance of the PERQ. And yet I see the (much more > common) ZX81 selling for \pounds 50, and the ZX80 selling for \pounds > 200. I've never heard of a PERQ sell for anything like that figure. Not sure if there is any way to judge any multiplyer of importance between machines at all, and yes, the impact for at the 'high tech development foremost frontier' is small (althrough, with the ZX 81, a proof of integration concepts was made), but thats not the only way a computer has importance - Computers don't only exist for themself, they are part of our culture, and when looking across the pure technological borderline, the ZXes could have a stand on their own. > The other point is that the PERQ had features which a lot of people don't > believe existed in 1980. Things like a high-resolution bitmapped display. > Like a pointing device. Open gates - I still belive that the ViewPoint System is the _best_ system at all - instead of adding these stupid window keys, MS should have added the four buttons ! Anyway Servus Hans P.S.: If you continue, I might be interested in getting a PERQ :) P.P.S.: and speaking of _great_ ideas without big impact (beside technology) - I'm still looking for a well maintained, but cheap C-5 -- Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. H.Achternbusch From steverob at hotoffice.com Thu Jul 1 14:30:39 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby Message-ID: <01BEC3D6.AD018C10.steverob@hotoffice.com> > > Well, automobile collecting is definitely a rich-man's hobby; which > sure leaves me out. I just find it painful to see our hobby go > the same way. > > Jeff Wrong... Just like computers, there are certain cars that are more desirable than others. You wanna collect cars? There's half a dozen parked in my neighorhood that you can get for free. OH.. That's no good enough, you want the 55 T-Bird and you expect to get it for nothing. You wanna collect computers? The thrift stores are full of 386s and 486s that you can get for next to nothing! Truck loads of em go in the landfill every single day. Nooooo... You wanna collect fancy computers with blinken lights and all kinda of cool stuff that noone else has and you expect to get it for nothing. Get over it! As a fairly new collector, I gotta say, you guys are spoiled. No-one ever gave me an ALTAIR and I still love the hobby. Sorry about the rant but, this argument is getting REALLY old. You wanna flame me, do it off line. I'm sure most of the other members are tired of hearing it too. Steve Robertson - From at258 at osfn.org Thu Jul 1 14:40:13 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990701124503.0107a2b0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: Many systems develop a negative value. We were given one system, for instance, which would have cost the owner $1,000 to dispose of. We have several other systems which would have represented a significant cost to their owner if they had not been given to us. As for the $1300 MITS drive, has anyone ever heard of depreciation? After 5-10 years it is worth NOTHING. Something to counterbalance the belief in wonderful deals on eBay. On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, John Foust wrote: > At 11:02 AM 7/1/99 -0600, you wrote: > > > >In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at > >$565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was > >in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. > > I suppose there must be a web site, somewhere, that would let you enter > a date and a US dollar amount, and would show you the equivalent value > in today's dollars, accounting for actual inflation, etc. in the > intervening years. > > Which reminds me, when I was in high school, we sold candy bars to > fund the purchase of a few K of RAM for the IMSAI as well as a floppy drive. > > >I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 > each, > > Similarly, you'd think there would be a web site somewhere to > remind people of the rapid devaluation of the value of computer > equipment - say, perhaps the flip side of Moore's Law, that shows > how simply purchasing and opening the box of a new computer causes > a significant drop in value, followed by subsequent halvings of > resale value every six months, until it quickly reaches the > "nuisance fee" level mentioned above, where the cost of shipping > and packing seems to exceed the street price. > > - John > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Thu Jul 1 15:04:16 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby Message-ID: <19990701200416.10926.rocketmail@ web605.yahoomail.com> --- John Foust wrote: > At 11:02 AM 7/1/99 -0600, you wrote: > >I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 > each, Hmm... Whatcha got? I'm looking for an 8" drive that I can attach to a PeeCee to read/write my old disks. I do have a 1/2-height drive that came with a DataRAM PDP-11 clone (along with an ST506 interface that emulates an RL02, but with no docs). Do you have any +12v/+5v 8" floppies, or only 24v-motor ones? > Similarly, you'd think there would be a web site somewhere to > remind people of the rapid devaluation of the value of computer > equipment - say, perhaps the flip side of Moore's Law, that shows > how simply purchasing and opening the box of a new computer causes > a significant drop in value, followed by subsequent halvings of > resale value every six months, until it quickly reaches the > "nuisance fee" level mentioned above, where the cost of shipping > and packing seems to exceed the street price. The general trend I've seen is 10% of MSRP at five years old, 1% at ten years old. There are exceptions, but it's a good rule of thumb (Think about what was new and selling for big bucks in 1989, then figure out what Goodwill is getting for it right now, for a comparison). In 1984-1985, a PC-AT was (decked out with 40Mb disk and a meg or two of RAM) $5K. Ten years later, they were well below $100 and frequently spotted at $50. There's the 1%. It's not absolute, but it gives me an idea about what to pay for an item, Altairs and Apple I's notwithstanding. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 12:50:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. In-Reply-To: <85474c74.24ac34eb@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 30, 99 11:05:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 6537 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990701/8aa654af/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 12:53:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. In-Reply-To: from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 30, 99 11:21:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 752 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990701/f0f34060/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 12:53:50 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: Strange PDP card available In-Reply-To: <19990630.224117.237.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at Jun 30, 99 10:41:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 141 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990701/6f7473b4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 12:57:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. In-Reply-To: <9205a2ec.24ac3f52@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jun 30, 99 11:49:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 322 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990701/0a6c0a2c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 13:00:49 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Jun 30, 99 09:44:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 884 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990701/b3931960/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 13:31:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: What is a Sirius? In-Reply-To: from "Eros, Anthony" at Jul 1, 99 07:56:44 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 583 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990701/9b2c5499/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 13:15:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: What is a Sirius? In-Reply-To: <000501bec3ac$09a4f770$b8c348c2@DROOPY> from "Pete Joules" at Jul 1, 99 11:25:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990701/25337bdc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 13:44:36 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: What is a Sirius? In-Reply-To: <01e301bec3d2$0544dc60$7a4a883e@dangermouse> from "Peter Pachla" at Jul 1, 99 03:09:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 994 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990701/42dc0406/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 13:18:17 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: LSI-11 In-Reply-To: from "Rodrigo Ventura" at Jul 1, 99 11:50:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 380 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990701/0ed7ae4f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 13:53:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: Data General/NeXT/Philips In-Reply-To: <01e501bec3d2$06ce89a0$7a4a883e@dangermouse> from "Peter Pachla" at Jul 1, 99 03:51:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1459 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990701/af24466d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 13:59:53 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. In-Reply-To: <01e601bec3d2$07872b40$7a4a883e@dangermouse> from "Peter Pachla" at Jul 1, 99 03:54:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1869 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990701/83d985db/attachment.ksh From jbcqc at qcunix1.acc.qc.edu Thu Jul 1 16:16:08 1999 From: jbcqc at qcunix1.acc.qc.edu (joe comunale) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: pdp11 schematics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Do these exist, and if so, where can I get a copy (buy or xerox)? -- joe comunale /url> www.qc.edu/~hn8qc Queens College/OIT /off> 718-997-5919 unix/asst Sys Mgr /fax> 718-997-5678 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jul 1 16:33:10 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: pdp11 schematics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990701142729.03d1fcb0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> There are print sets (aka Schematics) for all of the DEC PDP-11 systems, however, as one of, if not the, most popular minicomputer architecture there is isn't any "single" set of schematics. You have to realize that PDP-11 architecture machines come in three basic varieties: 1) Microcoded CPU systems build out of separate parts: 11/10, 11/20, 11/40, 11/70 etc 2) Some Integration (Unibus) 11/04, 11/24, 11/34, 11/44 3) High Integration (usually Q-bus) 11/03, 11/23, 11/73, 11/83, 11/93 And some more specialized models 11/45, 11/55 If you just want to know how PDP-11's work, I reccomend the PDP-11 Architecture handbook published by Digitial Equipment Corporation (nee Compaq Computer). If you have a particular PDP-11 model that needs schematics then you need to say what the model number is, and if you have a PDP-11 with lights and switches and no model number, then it is one of the "original" PDP-11's and it was later designated the PDP-11/20. --Chuck At 05:16 PM 7/1/99 -0400, joe comunale wrote: >Do these exist, and if so, where can I get a copy (buy or xerox)? From rigdonj at mailhost.intellistar.net Thu Jul 1 18:08:03 1999 From: rigdonj at mailhost.intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: Free Stuff! Xerox Printer/Terminal Manuals Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990701180803.3f17bf7a@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi, Does anyone want a copy of the Operator's Guide for the XEROX 630 API/API ECS Printer/Terminal? I also have a orignal Operator's Guide for the XEROX D 25 Printer. Joe From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Thu Jul 1 16:03:05 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, everyone who answered. I think I'm going to spring for another PS that I know is rated for the full 12 amps. Just out of curiosity, what could conceivably happen if I ran it at 12 amps and it couldn't handle the load? By the way, it is indeed an inexpensive, linear type... Thanks again, Aaron On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I am risking the effects of that famous quote, "Better to be thought a > > fool..." > > > > I have a 15V DC powersupply that has no other rating on its sticker than > > 180 watts. Now, with my [extremely] limited knowledge, I did the simple > > math and worked out that I could safely pull 12 amps out of this > > PS...am I right? Does it really work this way? > > In theory, yes. > > DC power = I.V. So 180W at 15V is, indeed, 12A. > > However, that is taking the '180W' to be the output power of the supply. > In many cases, the 180W is the maximum power it will consume from the > mains. And as power supplies are not 100% efficient, you don't get out > all the power you put in. In fact, the efficiency might only be 50% > (particularly if it's a linear PSU), so you could only draw 6A from it. > > I'd probably not take more than that from it, unless I _knew_ it was > designed to stand it. > > -tony > From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Jul 1 13:16:02 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199907012212.SAA15027@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 14:03:05 -0700 (PDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Aaron Christopher Finney > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: DC Power supply question...duh... > X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Thanks, everyone who answered. I think I'm going to spring for another PS > that I know is rated for the full 12 amps. Just out of curiosity, what > could conceivably happen if I ran it at 12 amps and it couldn't handle the > load? By the way, it is indeed an inexpensive, linear type... > > Thanks again, > > Aaron That full rating is no longer trusted because of marketing idiots. Best to find another PSU that have 220 ~ 250W rated, and run it at 12A. Never assume u find a 12A PSU. Find a 16A or so PSU in other words. Wizard From edick at idcomm.com Thu Jul 1 17:08:44 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby Message-ID: <002b01bec40e$67ac8ba0$66483cd1@fuj03> Well, just to put things in proportion, today, you can go to Best Buy and get a 300+ MHz P-II computer with an 8gb HDD and 256K of RAM, etc, for $600 including a nice 17" monitor. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey l Kaneko To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 12:24 PM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >On Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:02:51 -0600 "Richard Erlacher" >writes: >> This argument is getting to where it's pretty silly. > >PLease, hear me out on this . . . > >> I don't see how anyone can complain about buying used computer >> hardware for considerably less than it cost when new. > >OKay, $500 or $1000 is alot less than the $4k+ these things >cost when they were new, but $500 is *still* alot of money for >most people, certainly for one who's just starting out. > >> The mythical "free Altair" which pops up again and again is >> generally sold, even in "better than new" (properly assembled >> and functional) condition for significantly less than what it >> cost new, in "real" dollars. -- YES -- even on eBay! > >But e-bay makes the difference between 'easily affordable' and >'hopelessly out of reach'. > >> The typical PDP8 owned by persons in this particular interest group >> were certainly not purchased for what they cost new, even in inflated >> dollars, so I really can't see what the complaint is. > >The complaint is that what was once easily within reach, may not >be in the future . . . > >> Sure, some people are able, and, some, misguided though they may >> seem to be, even willing to pay more than I think they should for >> a given item. To them, I sell what I can. > >No matter how inexpensive, I does cost *something* to do this hobby >afterall; so . . . > >> In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned >> off at $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, >and >> that was in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a >candy >> bar. > >As I said, that's still alot of money. The cool thing about this >hobby was that you didn't need alot to get cool stuff. That's >starting to change. > >> I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for > >> $5 each, functionally tested and aligned, plus the estimated cost of >> packaging and shipping, since I don't want more work on top of the >> alignment and testing, estimated by Mailboxes, etc, which is where I'll > >> have them boxed and shipped. I've offered these same drives to people, > >> as is, for just the cost of shipping, and most wouldn't pay even for >> the shipping. > >Now see, this is what I've been talking about. You supply a scarce >commodity (in working condition I might add) for a reasonable price. >You are actively trying to make a contribution to our hobbyist community. > >> When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. >> The last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to >me, >> a typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the >> same, and a terminal cost $750. > >Yep. Big money. Definitely not something you do casually. BY 1993 >though, you could get these for next to nothing. Suddenly, you could >persue the hobby you couldn't afford ten years before. > >> If people wanted more than that for these devices, even though they >> were in perfectly functional and cosmetically perfect condition, I >could >> understand the complaints. I won't be convinced that the prices being >paid at >> auction, publicity or not, for "old, used, obsolete" computers or >component >> are unreasonable until someone shows me a similarly pristine '55 >> Thunderbird that's going unsold because its price is over half what it >cost new. > >Well, automobile collecting is definitely a rich-man's hobby; which >sure leaves me out. I just find it painful to see our hobby go >the same way. > >Jeff > > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From edick at idcomm.com Thu Jul 1 17:09:20 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: 1975 Dollars (was RE: State of the Hobby) Message-ID: <002c01bec40e$6903de40$66483cd1@fuj03> I think you have that backwards, sir. The present value of the 1975 dollar is $2.95, not the other way around. This is clearly just a misstatement, as you've interpreted it correctly in the subsequent statements of present value. This implies that when eBay facilitates an auction of an old Altair for $3000 it's $2500 lower than what a new one cost. That's not so bad, considering that the original was probably not built up and not functional. I note that the last one I saw for sale there hadn't even gotten a bid from $3k to start after 4 or 5 days. It would appear the guys who buy these aren't all totally stupid out there. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Kai Kaltenbach To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 12:17 PM Subject: 1975 Dollars (was RE: State of the Hobby) >I grabbed the Consumer Price Index history off the web, pasted into Excel, >and applied the percentage changes cumulative from 1975. > >One 1998 dollar = $2.95 in 1975 dollars (ouch, those Carter administration >years! Thank goodness for Greenspan) > >Therefore, an assembled Altair 8800 with 4x2K static RAM, serial, parallel, >cassette, and bus expansion, $1880 in 1975 dollars, would be the equivalent >of $5546 today. > >An Apple Lisa base configuration ($9995 in 1983 dollars) would be $16,169 >today. > >Kai > > -----Original Message----- >From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust@threedee.com] >Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 10:45 AM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Re: State of the Hobby > >At 11:02 AM 7/1/99 -0600, you wrote: >> >>In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at >>$565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was >>in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. > >I suppose there must be a web site, somewhere, that would let you enter >a date and a US dollar amount, and would show you the equivalent value >in today's dollars, accounting for actual inflation, etc. in the >intervening years. > >Which reminds me, when I was in high school, we sold candy bars to >fund the purchase of a few K of RAM for the IMSAI as well as a floppy drive. > >>I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 >each, > >Similarly, you'd think there would be a web site somewhere to >remind people of the rapid devaluation of the value of computer >equipment - say, perhaps the flip side of Moore's Law, that shows >how simply purchasing and opening the box of a new computer causes >a significant drop in value, followed by subsequent halvings of >resale value every six months, until it quickly reaches the >"nuisance fee" level mentioned above, where the cost of shipping >and packing seems to exceed the street price. > >- John From edick at idcomm.com Thu Jul 1 17:12:57 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... Message-ID: <003501bec40e$e0259c20$66483cd1@fuj03> Well, first of all, the linear type in that range aren't inexpensive . . . Switchers are cheaper. That's why the use them so much. All that would happen is that your voltage would drop out of regulation because the ripple would cause the input voltage to be too low. I'd be not the least bit afraid to try it. It probably won't break anything except maybe the fuse on the supply. -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 4:09 PM Subject: Re: DC Power supply question...duh... >Thanks, everyone who answered. I think I'm going to spring for another PS >that I know is rated for the full 12 amps. Just out of curiosity, what >could conceivably happen if I ran it at 12 amps and it couldn't handle the >load? By the way, it is indeed an inexpensive, linear type... > >Thanks again, > >Aaron > >On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> > I am risking the effects of that famous quote, "Better to be thought a >> > fool..." >> > >> > I have a 15V DC powersupply that has no other rating on its sticker than >> > 180 watts. Now, with my [extremely] limited knowledge, I did the simple >> > math and worked out that I could safely pull 12 amps out of this >> > PS...am I right? Does it really work this way? >> >> In theory, yes. >> >> DC power = I.V. So 180W at 15V is, indeed, 12A. >> >> However, that is taking the '180W' to be the output power of the supply. >> In many cases, the 180W is the maximum power it will consume from the >> mains. And as power supplies are not 100% efficient, you don't get out >> all the power you put in. In fact, the efficiency might only be 50% >> (particularly if it's a linear PSU), so you could only draw 6A from it. >> >> I'd probably not take more than that from it, unless I _knew_ it was >> designed to stand it. >> >> -tony >> > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Jul 1 17:31:07 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990701152755.03e3ad90@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> A well designed PSU will go into "thermal" shutdown, where the heat produced by the pass transistors is detected and the PSU shuts down until they cool off. A poorly designed PSU will go into "smoke" shutdown, where the transistors release their blue smoke and then never work again. The worst thing about the latter case is that when the transistors go into thermal avalanche mode they cease operating according to specification and the output of the supply could literally become nearly anything up to and including the unregulated DC input from the rectifier (probably 23 volts in this case) --Chuck At 02:03 PM 7/1/99 -0700, you wrote: >Just out of curiosity, what >could conceivably happen if I ran it at 12 amps and it couldn't handle the >load? By the way, it is indeed an inexpensive, linear type... From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jul 1 18:00:45 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: Data General/NeXT/Philips In-Reply-To: <01e501bec3d2$06ce89a0$7a4a883e@dangermouse> Message-ID: > In particular I've heard mention of a DG MicroNOVA which sounds like it might > fit the bill in terms of size. microNovas are hind to find these days, unlike microVAXen or the "micro"PDP-11s. I have only ever seen two (both of which I owned at one point). They were both MP/100s - the 2nd flavor to come out - and was based around a Nova on a 40-pin chip. The previous version was simply called "microNova" and had a detachable control panel that looked an awful lot like a calculator of the day (1977 or so). The succeeding version, after the MP/100, was the MP/200 and used a much faster multichip processor. There was also a microNova/Dasher combination called the MPT/100 - probably DG's answer to DEC's PDT series. I am not sure when that came out. Cheesy little boxes, them microNovas. The interface to the drive was interesting, being a simple 16 conductor ribbon cable (obviously VERY serial!). If size is an issue, get yourself a real Nova, like a 4, or maybe an Eclipse. They are around, if you look long and hard for one. In fact, I am looking into buying a bunch of DG stuff, including a Nova clone(!). Anyway, they are not much bigger than microNovas. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jul 1 18:11:45 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: <377B92CF.C0B6F4BF@rain.org> Message-ID: > Another thing that hasn't been brought up in this discussion yet is the > minor detail of museums. With the appropriate safeguards, people give and > loan collections to museums for display. Granted that is not the same as > using it, but people can still see them (Moffett Field for instance.) Yes, there are actually museums that do allow donors to play with the artifacts. One of them is RCS. Plug. A good number of our big peices are privately owned, like two of the three PDP-12s, the Interdata 4, PDP-8/i, VAX-11/750, and so on. Plug. Even though the working -12 is not mine, I can go and play with it, as long as I respect it as not being mine. Plug. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 17:29:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: What is a Sirius? In-Reply-To: <199907011730.TAA25554@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jul 1, 99 07:30:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1740 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990701/ab8eb4ba/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 17:43:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader.# In-Reply-To: <199907011855.UAA28542@horus.mch.sni.de> from "Hans Franke" at Jul 1, 99 08:55:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2325 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990701/90d79e02/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgocable.net Thu Jul 1 14:32:52 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: <002b01bec40e$67ac8ba0$66483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <199907012329.TAA04323@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:08:44 -0600 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Richard Erlacher" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: State of the Hobby > X-To: > Well, just to put things in proportion, today, you can go to Best Buy and > get a 300+ MHz P-II computer with an 8gb HDD and 256K of RAM, etc, for $600 > including a nice 17" monitor. > > Dick Please snip off excess text while replying. BTW whoops 256K for a PII? U mean 256MB? :-) Wizard From a2k at one.net Thu Jul 1 18:34:57 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: <01BEC3D6.AD018C10.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: > You wanna collect computers? The thrift stores are full of 386s and 486s > that you can get for next to nothing! Truck loads of em go in the landfill > every single day. Nooooo... You wanna collect fancy computers with blinken > lights and all kinda of cool stuff that noone else has and you expect to > get it for nothing. > > Get over it! Good point! I *do* collect the 386s and 486s... not particularly as collector's items -- they're still too common. However, they still are useful computers, so I clean them up, put Linux on them, and give them a good home in my basement. Even if they takee a while, they're still useful for Distributed.Net and SETI@HOME stuff... besides, they're great to drop a few 100 meg HDs into and mount over NFS. > As a fairly new collector, I gotta say, you guys are spoiled. No-one ever > gave me an ALTAIR and I still love the hobby. Some here. I have been given a great deal of my stuff... 2 TRS-80Cocos, Atari 800, C64s (oodles), an Amiga 2000 (great machine!) and a few 386s... amoungst lots of parts. Kevin From edick at idcomm.com Thu Jul 1 18:35:27 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader.# Message-ID: <001a01bec41a$66e79780$4f483cd1@fuj03> I just have to be contrary, here. I was given my first Mouse Systems Optical Mouse back in '82. That was before either the Lisa or the Mac. I don't exactly know what the giver thought/wished I would do with it, but there it was. I was using CP/M at home and office though we did have an MS-DOS machine. If attention hadn't been called to the mouse by that time, I doubt someone would have given me one. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 5:21 PM Subject: Re: Article about collecting in Antique Trader.# >> > I don't want to imply a direct technical link here. But it's clear that the >> > Macintosh was influenced by the Lisa. And that Windows was influenced by >> > the Macintosh. >> >> Objections! >> IMHO Windows was _not_ influenced by the mac - at least not >> at all before 3.x, and not heavyly before 9x. Let me explain: > >I wasn't implying a technical influence. Just that the Mac brought the >mouse to the public's attention. And thus PCs had to get some kind of >mouse/GUI. After all, the GUI on the Alto is very different from that on >the Lisa, which is very different from that on the Mac (at least as I >remember them). > >In any case, Windows 3.x was an important step. There were _very few_ >(that I remember) third party applications for Windows 1.x or 2.x. In >fact those versions of Windows tended to come bundled with whatever >applications needed them (I remember installing Excel on a PC in about >1988 and it came with a run-time Windows 2.x IIRC). > >But Windows 3.0 appeared (to the user) as a different PC operating system >(yes, _I_ know it was built on top of MS-DOS, but...). Now you could get >point-n-drool programs for this OS on a PC. > > >> The picture might look like: >> >> The Mouse ------------------------------; >> | SideKick -'-> Windows 1.x/2.x -;-> MS Win 3.x -;-> MS Win 9x >> | ,-> GEM -' | >> Alto -+-> D machines -> Apple Lisa -> Original Mac -'----------> MacOS >7.0 -'-> ... >> | | Close similarities >> +-> PERQ > > >OK, I can certainly accept that. > >All I was really commenting on was the fact that the Lisa attracts a >price out of all proportion with it's significance. The PERQ and >D-machines are important as well, but those don't tend to sell for $5000 >or whatever. > >> No, me'n either, but maybe the impact of the PC had been different - >> these computers did pave the road to use other systems more willingly >> not just by order of ones boss. > >I would be _very_ supprised if most of today's PC _users_ (as opposed to >programmers, hackers, etc) started out building a ZX80 19 years ago.. > >> P.S.: If you continue, I might be interested in getting a PERQ :) > >You should be. It's an interesting machine. Just be warned that >microcoding is addictive... > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Jul 1 18:37:25 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby Message-ID: <002101bec41a$ad1ff8a0$4f483cd1@fuj03> see below, plz Dick -----Original Message----- From: jpero@cgocable.net To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 5:34 PM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:08:44 -0600 >> Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu >> From: "Richard Erlacher" >> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" >> Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >> X-To: > >> Well, just to put things in proportion, today, you can go to Best Buy and >> get a 300+ MHz P-II computer with an 8gb HDD and 256K of RAM, etc, for $600 >> including a nice 17" monitor. >> >> Dick > >Please snip off excess text while replying. BTW whoops 256K for a >PII? U mean 256MB? > I do indeed! Sorry . . . rented fingers (lame excuse) . . . > >:-) > >Wizard From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 18:38:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:58 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... In-Reply-To: from "Aaron Christopher Finney" at Jul 1, 99 02:03:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1276 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990702/415df424/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 18:41:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: pdp11 schematics In-Reply-To: from "joe comunale" at Jul 1, 99 05:16:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 716 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990702/a1775b88/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 1 18:44:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: pdp11 schematics In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990701142729.03d1fcb0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jul 1, 99 02:33:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 936 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990702/14643ec2/attachment.ksh From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jul 1 19:17:48 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: <19990701.112431.207.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: > But you've missed the one 'fundamental' that uniquely gives our hobby > its true appeal: Our hobby exists (existed) purely for its own sake. > No strings, wire, or unneeded baggage. It existed purely for the joy > of computing at its most base level, and the aquisition of knowledge > of the science. I would not say that is a rule of thumb. I think there are many people on this list that pursue the hobby for the sake of the machines - almost as a sense of responsibility to preserve the past. I can say that nearly everyone at RCS shares this feeling, at least. > Hostile? Yer damned right. We're on the defensive now. The > 'marketplace' > is poised to fundamentally change what I perceive as the original charter > of the computing hobby. Well, as the old German man says - "Dat ist de vay de kookie krumbles". See below for the explanation... > This to me, clearly says you have no clue as to what is at stake here. > >From my perspective, it's more like lashing out at land speculators > who want to parcel out what was once tribal land, the parcels by the > lake commanding the highest prices. What was once an almost free and > accessable resource, now belongs only to the elite who can pay the price. [...] > Now there are amongst us speculators who don't truly believe; > they don't practice the true faith, and don't care to. All they > know is that computers have become a 'hot' collectible, and they want > a piece of the action. It is these that we must oppose. I think there are far more of these people than we think. How many of us actually _know_ someone that is doing this? Dealers tend to be rather open about what they do, simply because they want people to know what they have for sale. It is basically advertising. > I see the prices, and *I* just want to gag. The continued exposure > of our hobby on forums like E-BAy will only cause prices to rise. Very > soon, many of us will be priced out . . . None of the computers I have seen for sale, with the exception of a Bendix G-15, have been horribly outragous in an absolute sense. Look at just about ANY hobby that involves things collectable - the cream will cost four figures. Computers, depression glass, model trains, Hummels, books, clocks, whatever. Computers are interesting, however, because many of the people that are buying the things are in the computer industry, and are probably making good money. If I were a lowly technician* at UUnet, I would still be making enough to spend four figures _maybe_ once a year on something good like an Altair. If I were an engineer, something I am sure many of us are, a four figure Altair purchase would be something to stop and think about for a minute, but nothing that would drain the kid's college fund. Let's face it, both the money _and_the_collectors_ are in the computer industry. > SO you're convinced that someone with a pile of money to throw at > a 'hobby' simply wants it more than someone who's broke??!! Sheesh. > It must be nice to rich, so you feel justified in making implications > like that. This is (mostly) America, as they say. Work your butt off and get ahead of the game. Then buy your Altairs. So far, I know lots of people that make decent pay because of hard work, but I know no one that gets decent pay for whining. When I was a poor college student and wanted something, I would put extra hours in at the warehouse. > IN the hobby I knew, money was only a very small part of the equation. > Used to be, all I needed was a few dollars, some basic tools, and a > little luck. Now I need *deep* pockets, too. I'm upset that the > 'elite' is putting my favorite passtime out of my reach. Its not the "elite" that have something about cornering the computer collectable field - it happens to ALL collectable fields. I have seen it happen in two related instances. Back, maybe 15 years ago, I was in high school and was getting interested in old electronics - specifically collecting electron tubes and military radios. Back then, the electron tube market was just starting to go, but the military radio market was dead. I mean dead dead. Maybe Mr. Fandt can back me up on this, but back in 1985, one could get a Western Electric 205D vacuum tube for about $25, and an Collins R-390A receiver for, well, free. If you paid more than $25 you were a sucker. Anyway, both markets started to mature and prices went up. These days a 205D will cost you about $350, and an R-390A will be about $500. Could anything stop these price increases? No. Absolutely nothing. People started to see how collectable these were, and in these two cases, both cream. Economics took over, with all of that supply and demand goobledygook we all slept thru in school. There were (and still are) speculators in these fields, but just not that many. There were (are) far more dealers, because most people like quick money, and speculation is not the place to make a quick dollar. The dealers, for the most part, are quite open about what they do. They demand good money because they know they can get it. The also demand good money because there are a great many dead ends that must be looked at before a big score. How many people like to search a dark, dirty, 110 degree F warehouse just to find nothing, all because of a good sounding lead? In the two above mentioned fields, there are "big guns" - those people that do have money. I know some of them, and have personally seen alot of collections. Most of these guys are very knowledgable, and treat their artifacts in a very loving manner. One of the perks of being a "big gun" and having a super collection is that people expect them to be authorities, and most end up being so. It works both ways - knowledge increases with new artifacts, and the quest to get more artifacts gets more intense as more questions arise from the knowledge. The idea that the "rich bastards" will just glass-case the items so onlookers can stare is basically completely wrong - with tubes, radios, or computers. Most like to "show off" more than just what they purchased. In any case, the computer collecting field is going thru these changes, and nothing will stop it. Basically, deal with it in whatever way makes you happy, but certainly whining will do nothing but alienate. > True believers will always welcome initiates. But only the truly > committed will mature and contribute. These are the ones who will > make our hobby live. If you shut these out by raising the price > of admission, then our hobby (as we now know it) will certainly die. Initiation? Sounds idealist to me. When do we get a temple? And do we get to spank people with brightly colored paddles with latin mottos? *no, I was not a technician, I was an engineer, but I knew technicians. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jul 1 19:23:17 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: Apple //e, TRS-80 M4, IBM xstation 120 & a Socrates toy. In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990701130439.0097f100@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: > IBM Xstation: What is the processor? What OS does it run? 80C186, I think, with a 34010 on the side. It _wants_ to talk to an AIX machine, but you could probably boot is from other Unix boxes with a big enough hammer. > The Socrates toy: > I found one... I vaguely remember it from some years back... I gave it > to a couple that seemed to want it badly. What is it's collectable > significance? Hey, does it have a "new" FCC sticker over and "old" FCC sticker on the bottom? That crappy warehouse job I mentioned in a (just) previous post was me replacing the damn things because someone ordered the wrong things at the factory. I never want to see a Socrates ever again. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jul 1 19:31:34 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: <19990701.130857.217.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: > OKay, $500 or $1000 is alot less than the $4k+ these things > cost when they were new, but $500 is *still* alot of money for > most people, certainly for one who's just starting out. It may be alot for someone starting out, sure, but then someone starting out might not want to go for the cream. That might be aiming just a bit too high. > As I said, that's still alot of money. The cool thing about this > hobby was that you didn't need alot to get cool stuff. That's > starting to change. For starting? No. Despite all of the talk about the $510 Mac, there are bushels of machines that are in the under $50 category - some pretty darn nice ones, too. This seems to be like the press reporting about multi-million dollar personal injury lawsuits - they really are rarer than hens teeth, but the newspeople make it sound like it happens all of the time. There will always be very affordable classic computers - only the creme will go ballistic. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From edick at idcomm.com Thu Jul 1 19:45:58 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby Message-ID: <000e01bec424$451c4560$43483cd1@fuj03> Don't expect sympathy from any evolutionists . . . the inability to continue in life or in any other pursuit is simply a response to the need for certain characteristics. In this case, income. If your income fails to keep up with the cost of your hobby, you have little choice but to get another hobby . . . or perhaps a job which pays better so you can forestall the same extinction event a bit. It's not fair to expect the universe to look out for you personally. It's not the way of things that YOU or I, for that matter, get to set the price of commodities on the market, else I'd set the price of gold really low when I planned on buying and really high when I planned on selling. It won't be long before you, like others on this list expect not only to get things for no cost, but you'll soon want to be paid for taking them. Dick -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:23 PM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >> But you've missed the one 'fundamental' that uniquely gives our hobby >> its true appeal: Our hobby exists (existed) purely for its own sake. >> No strings, wire, or unneeded baggage. It existed purely for the joy >> of computing at its most base level, and the aquisition of knowledge >> of the science. > >I would not say that is a rule of thumb. I think there are many people on >this list that pursue the hobby for the sake of the machines - almost as >a sense of responsibility to preserve the past. I can say that nearly >everyone at RCS shares this feeling, at least. > >> Hostile? Yer damned right. We're on the defensive now. The >> 'marketplace' >> is poised to fundamentally change what I perceive as the original charter >> of the computing hobby. > >Well, as the old German man says - "Dat ist de vay de kookie krumbles". > >See below for the explanation... > >> This to me, clearly says you have no clue as to what is at stake here. >> >From my perspective, it's more like lashing out at land speculators >> who want to parcel out what was once tribal land, the parcels by the >> lake commanding the highest prices. What was once an almost free and >> accessable resource, now belongs only to the elite who can pay the price. > >[...] > >> Now there are amongst us speculators who don't truly believe; >> they don't practice the true faith, and don't care to. All they >> know is that computers have become a 'hot' collectible, and they want >> a piece of the action. It is these that we must oppose. > >I think there are far more of these people than we think. How many of us >actually _know_ someone that is doing this? Dealers tend to be rather >open about what they do, simply because they want people to know what >they have for sale. It is basically advertising. > >> I see the prices, and *I* just want to gag. The continued exposure >> of our hobby on forums like E-BAy will only cause prices to rise. Very >> soon, many of us will be priced out . . . > >None of the computers I have seen for sale, with the exception of a Bendix >G-15, have been horribly outragous in an absolute sense. Look at just >about ANY hobby that involves things collectable - the cream will cost >four figures. Computers, depression glass, model trains, Hummels, books, >clocks, whatever. > >Computers are interesting, however, because many of the people that are >buying the things are in the computer industry, and are probably making >good money. If I were a lowly technician* at UUnet, I would still be >making enough to spend four figures _maybe_ once a year on something good >like an Altair. If I were an engineer, something I am sure many of us are, >a four figure Altair purchase would be something to stop and think about >for a minute, but nothing that would drain the kid's college fund. Let's >face it, both the money _and_the_collectors_ are in the computer industry. > >> SO you're convinced that someone with a pile of money to throw at >> a 'hobby' simply wants it more than someone who's broke??!! Sheesh. >> It must be nice to rich, so you feel justified in making implications >> like that. > >This is (mostly) America, as they say. Work your butt off and get ahead >of the game. Then buy your Altairs. So far, I know lots of people that >make decent pay because of hard work, but I know no one that gets >decent pay for whining. When I was a poor college student and wanted >something, I would put extra hours in at the warehouse. > >> IN the hobby I knew, money was only a very small part of the equation. >> Used to be, all I needed was a few dollars, some basic tools, and a >> little luck. Now I need *deep* pockets, too. I'm upset that the >> 'elite' is putting my favorite passtime out of my reach. > >Its not the "elite" that have something about cornering the computer >collectable field - it happens to ALL collectable fields. I have seen it >happen in two related instances. > >Back, maybe 15 years ago, I was in high school and was getting interested >in old electronics - specifically collecting electron tubes and military >radios. Back then, the electron tube market was just starting to go, but >the military radio market was dead. I mean dead dead. Maybe Mr. Fandt can >back me up on this, but back in 1985, one could get a Western Electric >205D vacuum tube for about $25, and an Collins R-390A receiver for, well, >free. If you paid more than $25 you were a sucker. Anyway, both markets >started to mature and prices went up. These days a 205D will cost you >about $350, and an R-390A will be about $500. Could anything stop these >price increases? No. Absolutely nothing. People started to see how >collectable these were, and in these two cases, both cream. Economics >took over, with all of that supply and demand goobledygook we all slept >thru in school. > >There were (and still are) speculators in these fields, but just not that >many. There were (are) far more dealers, because most people like quick >money, and speculation is not the place to make a quick dollar. The >dealers, for the most part, are quite open about what they do. They demand >good money because they know they can get it. The also demand good money >because there are a great many dead ends that must be looked at before a >big score. How many people like to search a dark, dirty, 110 degree F >warehouse just to find nothing, all because of a good sounding lead? > >In the two above mentioned fields, there are "big guns" - those people >that do have money. I know some of them, and have personally seen alot of >collections. Most of these guys are very knowledgable, and treat their >artifacts in a very loving manner. One of the perks of being a "big gun" >and having a super collection is that people expect them to be >authorities, and most end up being so. It works both ways - knowledge >increases with new artifacts, and the quest to get more artifacts gets >more intense as more questions arise from the knowledge. The idea that >the "rich bastards" will just glass-case the items so onlookers can stare is >basically completely wrong - with tubes, radios, or computers. Most like >to "show off" more than just what they purchased. > >In any case, the computer collecting field is going thru these changes, >and nothing will stop it. Basically, deal with it in whatever way makes >you happy, but certainly whining will do nothing but alienate. > >> True believers will always welcome initiates. But only the truly >> committed will mature and contribute. These are the ones who will >> make our hobby live. If you shut these out by raising the price >> of admission, then our hobby (as we now know it) will certainly die. > >Initiation? Sounds idealist to me. When do we get a temple? And do we get >to spank people with brightly colored paddles with latin mottos? > >*no, I was not a technician, I was an engineer, but I knew technicians. > >William Donzelli >aw288@osfn.org > From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Thu Jul 1 20:19:27 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: Apple //e, TRS-80 M4, IBM xstation 120 & a Socrates toy. In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Jul 1, 1999 8:23:17 pm" Message-ID: <199907020120.VAA68578@pechter.dyndns.org> > > IBM Xstation: What is the processor? What OS does it run? > > 80C186, I think, with a 34010 on the side. It _wants_ to talk to an AIX > machine, but you could probably boot is from other Unix boxes with a big > enough hammer. > This depends on the model. Some used faster processors like a 386 and I think some were RISC based. There were 130's, 140's,150's... They all had different memory configs and different amounts of cpu horsepower. Most used the TI 34010 for the graphics support. Some had an internal disk for backing and font storage. What model is it. The 130's were dog slow, but the 150 wasn't too bad. Bill From bsa3 at cornell.edu Thu Jul 1 20:28:46 1999 From: bsa3 at cornell.edu (Brad Ackerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: Apple //e, TRS-80 M4, IBM xstation 120 & a Socrates toy. In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990701130439.0097f100@207.207.0.212>; from Arfon Gryffydd on Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 01:04:39PM -0500 References: <3.0.3.32.19990701130439.0097f100@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: <19990701212846.51560@cornell.edu> On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 01:04:39PM -0500, Arfon Gryffydd wrote: > > IBM Xstation: What is the processor? What OS does it run? Let me know if you can't find a boot image on IBM's web site -- I can probably pull one out of my /var. Whatever processor it runs, they're slow -- but still faster than a bwtwo. -- Brad Ackerman N1MNB "...faced with the men and women who bring home bsa3@cornell.edu the pork, voters almost always re-elect them." http://skaro.pair.com/ -- _The Economist_, 31 Oct 1998 From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Jul 1 20:46:18 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. Message-ID: Hi Megan: Thanks for the note. I've written tons of code to interface PCs with "big" computers, but I've never had the opportunity to see any of them. Cool site! In a message dated 7/1/99 2:26:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mbg@world.std.com writes: > Check out the -8s on my collection page to get an idea of size (of > systems with peripherals -- remember, the cabs are 6' high). > > http://world.std.com/~mbg/home_systems.html Glen Goodwin 0/0 From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Jul 1 20:49:51 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: FW: Looking for REAL old parts (IBM 5155 + 5170) In-Reply-To: <377BCCA2.2C7DDEAC@wxs.nl> References: <377BCCA2.2C7DDEAC@wxs.nl> Message-ID: <377e1a82.377629282@smtp.jps.net> If anyone feels like helping this fellow out, please reply directly. Thanks! -=-=- -=-=- On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 22:16:34 +0200, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc you wrote: >>From: Dennis Mulleneers >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc >>Subject: Looking for REAL old parts (IBM 5155 + 5170) >>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 22:16:34 +0200 >>Organization: Planet Internet >>Lines: 20 >>Message-ID: <377BCCA2.2C7DDEAC@wxs.nl> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: mt0385-2.dial.wxs.nl >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>X-Trace: reader3.wxs.nl 930860130 3815417 195.121.189.129 (1 Jul 1999 20:15:30 GMT) >>X-Complaints-To: abuse@wxs.nl >>NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jul 1999 20:15:30 GMT >>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5 i686) >>X-Accept-Language: en >>Path: news1.jps.net!news-west.eli.net!news-sea-20.sprintlink.net!news-west.sprintlink.net!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news-ge.switch.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.unisource.nl!gate.news.unisource.nl!news.wxs.nl!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc:436 >> >>Hi there, >> >>I'm looking for some parts to restore some old IBM PC's (for my >>collection)... >> >>IBM 5155: >>- original screws (those blue colored internal screws) >>- original backplates (6 pcs, to cover the holes of the exp. slots) >>- TWO ORIGINAL 5.25" inch diskdrives (360Kb Half Height. I tink they're >>black) >> >>IBM 5170: >>- original screws to close the case (the five big hexheaded ones) >>- original cork "feet" for the case >>- also about 7 pcs of the backplates to cover the holes of the exp. >>slots >> >>I hope someone can get me these things.....TIA >> >>Dennis :-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..." From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Jul 1 20:59:03 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. Message-ID: <5485281.24ad76e7@aol.com> Hi Peter: In a message dated 7/1/99 10:58:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk writes: > Don't get me started on WIn'95....I've had several months of headaches caused > by THAT OS since I upgraded my PC. Sorry to hear it. 95 OSR2.x is actually a bit more stable than the earlier versions, so if you're running something prior to 2.0 you may want to upgrade again (can't believe I'm saying this . . .) People with (relatively) stable Win 95 PCs come into our shop every day wanting to move to 98, and when we ask them why they don't have an answer . . . this is a good indication of the mindset of the average PC user . . . > I'd be using Linux right now if I could get versions of the software > I > need to use for it. They'll be here soon, we hope . . . Thanks, Glen Goodwin 0/0 From edick at idcomm.com Thu Jul 1 20:57:39 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby Message-ID: <001a01bec42e$58171500$43483cd1@fuj03> I agree with this one! There's no need for a "starter-outer" regardless of his/her current station in life to go after an Imsai or (much worse) an ALTAIR, when those machines weren't that well designed and weren't that well supported. If one wants to start out with an S-100, he should get hold of a widely used, common and therefore likely to be inexpensive, mainframe, or at least backplane, then do the same for known-to-be-compatible memory, CPU, and controller cards, a power supply, and a terminal or PC with a working terminal program and a couple of 8" floppy disk drives. Unfortunately, the presence of the PC with its virtually plug-and-play (chuckle) readily available boards and the MAC with it's even less difficult to set up peripherals, have led the world to believe that devices should just naturally play together. Anyone who's worked with DEC equipment knows that isn't true. Once upon a time, I worked for a DEC-addicted client whose system required redundant PDP11-44's. The DEC folks would deliver the hardware on one day, set up the first rack the second day, get the basic hardware to run on the third, and then one or two days at a time, get the rest to work together. Then there was the second rack . . . Now, even though the two machines had been specifically ordered to be "identical in every way" at a considerable premium, it was not unusual for the DEC folks to have to swap each rack in its entirety several times before they actually had two from which you could extract a board and exchange it with the corresponding board in the other and not have both machines fall apart. Usually, while this was happening, the other 30 or so of us were in day-for-day schedule slip. On the S-100 bus, there were lots of board which worked just fine together. Unfortunately, there were others which did not. The earlier the vintage, the less likely that they'd be particularly interoperable with other manufacturers' equipment. This applied as much to backplanes and serial port boards as to CPU's, memory and FDC's. If a beginner has a few fairly widely used boards, it's likely he can get some help from the guys on this list or from the fellows in the CP/M newsgroup. If he has an Altair, that number is greatly reduced. Nonetheless, if a fellow has an Altair, that's normally the one he wants to get running, irrespective of the associated problems. Suggestions abound, of course, but solid help from experienced users is scarce because there weren't many. What I want to know is why a beginner would want to run old hardware if he doesn't know anything about hardware in general and the general class of hardware with which he's dealing in particular. I can understand it if he used the stuff when he was a pup, or if his father had one. What I read here, however, is mostly stuff from people who have gotten a few pieces of gear for next to no money and expect that since they've got the "big" bits they won't need to spend much more. Unfortunately, that's seldom the case. I read lots of prose from people who've got lots of pieces of lots of systems but haven't a clue what, exactly, is necessary in order to make any of the stuff "do something." Why do you suppose this is? Dick -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:37 PM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >> OKay, $500 or $1000 is alot less than the $4k+ these things >> cost when they were new, but $500 is *still* alot of money for >> most people, certainly for one who's just starting out. > >It may be alot for someone starting out, sure, but then someone starting >out might not want to go for the cream. That might be aiming just a bit >too high. > >> As I said, that's still alot of money. The cool thing about this >> hobby was that you didn't need alot to get cool stuff. That's >> starting to change. > >For starting? No. Despite all of the talk about the $510 Mac, there are >bushels of machines that are in the under $50 category - some pretty darn >nice ones, too. This seems to be like the press reporting about >multi-million dollar personal injury lawsuits - they really are rarer >than hens teeth, but the newspeople make it sound like it happens all of >the time. There will always be very affordable classic computers - only >the creme will go ballistic. > >William Donzelli >aw288@osfn.org From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Jul 1 21:02:47 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: <000601bec3e3$a05e9c20$71483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > This argument is getting to where it's pretty silly. > > I don't see how anyone can complain about buying used computer hardware for > considerably less than it cost when new. It's called "inflation". Look it up. > The mythical "free Altair" which pops up again and again is generally sold, > even in "better than new" (properly assembled and functional) condition for > significantly less than what it cost new, in "real" dollars. -- YES -- even > on eBay! Would you buy a 1967 model Beetle for what a 1999 model costs? > In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at > $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was > in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. I'm > presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 each, > functionally tested and aligned, plus the estimated cost of packaging and > shipping, since I don't want more work on top of the alignment and testing, > estimated by Mailboxes, etc, which is where I'll have them boxed and > shipped. I've offered these same drives to people, as is, for just the cost > of shipping, and most wouldn't pay even for the shipping. Which may very well prove one point being brought up, that some people are not collecting to use or preserve, but merely to display and trophy. Still, your price comparisons are nonsense. > When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. The > last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to me, a > typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the same, and a > terminal cost $750. Yeah, but today I can get a 3.5" floppy drive that holds more data and is faster, for $35. I can get a Pentium-II CPU at 350Mhz for certainly less than $250, and a floppy controller is built into the motherboard I buy for under $100. So how does your price comparison stand up now? P.S. It would be nice if you'd edit the superfluous quoted reply out of your message before sending it. Bandwidth is a precious commodity in third world countries. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From max82 at surfree.com Thu Jul 1 20:04:32 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: PC form factor Message-ID: Hi, I'm wondering: was the IBM PC the first machine with PSU in the rear right, drives in the front right, motherboard in rear left, or did they borrow this design from someone else? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From at258 at osfn.org Thu Jul 1 21:17:13 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Everything starts out at a high price, and over its life span, that price slowly drops and hits bottom, then it slowly starts to rise again. It isn't just computers, but Rolls-Royces, Mark Twain first editions, gold jewellery, kewpie dolls, etc. On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, William Donzelli wrote: > Initiation? Sounds idealist to me. When do we get a temple? And do we get > to spank people with brightly colored paddles with latin mottos? Ah now THIS sounds like a nice hobby...sic semper Atari? M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From edick at idcomm.com Thu Jul 1 21:26:03 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby Message-ID: <003201bec432$4e61e540$43483cd1@fuj03> See embedded comments below, plz Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 8:08 PM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> This argument is getting to where it's pretty silly. >> >> I don't see how anyone can complain about buying used computer hardware for >> considerably less than it cost when new. > >It's called "inflation". Look it up. > Nope, Sam, once again you demonstrate your proclivity to yack before you look. Inflation would make the current price HIGHER. That's why a $1 item, so priced in 1967, costs over $3 today, and, in some cases, >$4. Perhaps you need to look it up. > >> The mythical "free Altair" which pops up again and again is generally sold, >> even in "better than new" (properly assembled and functional) condition for >> significantly less than what it cost new, in "real" dollars. -- YES -- even >> on eBay! > >Would you buy a 1967 model Beetle for what a 1999 model costs? > If, as is the case with many "antique" computers, it is, in fact in better condition than when it was new, having been properly assembled, all the routing errors on the PCB corrected, and proved running. If it had been as well preserved as may computers I've seen dating back to then, I'd probably say "yes." Naturally, the fact that nothing built in Mexico with the shoddy quality control standards they must have to use to get anything from their assembly lines approved at all, makes me wonder whether I'd want one of the new ones at all. In '67, I bought a VW beetle for just under $1300. They cost significantly more than that here in the US, but I was in Germany. If I encountered one in like-new condition, in like-new state of wear, with all the features intact, it would probably never be offered for anything nearly so low as the '99's. > >> In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at >> $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was >> in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. I'm >> presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 each, >> functionally tested and aligned, plus the estimated cost of packaging and >> shipping, since I don't want more work on top of the alignment and testing, >> estimated by Mailboxes, etc, which is where I'll have them boxed and >> shipped. I've offered these same drives to people, as is, for just the cost >> of shipping, and most wouldn't pay even for the shipping. > >Which may very well prove one point being brought up, that some people are >not collecting to use or preserve, but merely to display and trophy. > >Still, your price comparisons are nonsense. > >> When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. The >> last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to me, a >> typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the same, and a >> terminal cost $750. > >Yeah, but today I can get a 3.5" floppy drive that holds more data and is >faster, for $35. > I don't doubt that. Most anyone else could buy them for the normal market price of $22. Nevertheless, what would you have to pay to get an 8" drive today? The 3.5" drive may be better, but can't read 32-sector hard-sectored media very well. Nor can it read the venerable IBM 3740-formatted diskettes which were standard distribution media for CP/M. > > I can get a Pentium-II CPU at 350Mhz for certainly less >than $250, and a floppy controller is built into the motherboard I buy for >under $100. So how does your price comparison stand up now? > >P.S. It would be nice if you'd edit the superfluous quoted reply out of >your message before sending it. Bandwidth is a precious commodity in >third world countries. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 05/25/99] > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Jul 1 21:31:24 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: PC form factor Message-ID: <003901bec432$fb34c120$43483cd1@fuj03> Since most folks are right-handed, having the drives on the right is pretty reasonable. The physical design was allegedly patterened after the pple-][ whose market IBM coveted. The concept of easily installable expansion cards on an open bus with I/O connectors in the rear did evolve there, though not in Apple's products. Several companies saw the light and put connectors on the back of their Apple computers using a separate bracket. IBM saw the problem that caused once your computer got rather full, since each card so equipped would require, essentially, two slots. The Apple-][ had its supply on the left and had no internal drives. I don't remember whether the Apple III had internal drives. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 8:10 PM Subject: PC form factor >Hi, >I'm wondering: was the IBM PC the first machine with PSU in the rear >right, drives in the front right, motherboard in rear left, or did they >borrow this design from someone else? > >--Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power > From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jul 1 21:41:35 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: PC form factor In-Reply-To: <003901bec432$fb34c120$43483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: > Since most folks are right-handed, having the drives on the right is pretty > reasonable. The physical design was allegedly patterened after the > pple-][ whose market IBM coveted. I really doubt that they looked at Apple for the design. IBM has pretty much been on top of the pile as far as ergonomics and ease of maintenance since the 1950s. Sure, the PC is not exactly their shining moment, but it does show some thought for a design with a low production cost in mind. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From PATTON2R at aol.com Thu Jul 1 21:40:16 1999 From: PATTON2R at aol.com (PATTON2R@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 XT Message-ID: <5478f2b.24ad8090@aol.com> Greetings all, I am trying to see if I can get an IBM 5150 working still. I was wondering if anyone out there can tell me: 1. If the IBM 5150 XT computer came with documentation 2. Is an IBM monitor, model # 5153 (Personal Computer Color Display) is compatible with an IBM 5150 XT? 3. What kind of monitor (graphics array) is an IBM 5153. I would guess EGA, but don't know. If anyone can help me out I sure would appreciate it. Robert From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jul 1 21:46:04 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby Message-ID: <199907020246.AA22839@world.std.com> <> In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off a <> $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that wa Aas someone that placed that order asap back when, that was several months savings! the new ford truck (F250 4x4 pickup) was only $2700. and it would take weeks to make it do something. later more money to replace the damm S4Ks with 88MCDs and again with seals 8k static. When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. Th <> last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to me, a <> typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the same, an <> terminal cost $750. When? In 1977 it's was more like(8080 or z80/2mhz) $399 by 1979 it was 299 and 4mhz z80, 81 a cpu board had z80b ram, rom serial and floppy at $599. hard to compare apples and oranges. < 1. If the IBM 5150 XT computer came with documentation Yes, a hell of a lot more than current hardware does. < 2. Is an IBM monitor, model # 5153 (Personal Computer Color Display) is Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > What I want to know is why a beginner would want to run old hardware if he > doesn't know anything about hardware in general and the general class of > hardware with which he's dealing in particular. I can understand it if he You've never heard of people wanting to learn? Great attitude. > I read lots of prose from people who've got lots of pieces of lots of > systems but haven't a clue what, exactly, is necessary in order to make any > of the stuff "do something." > > Why do you suppose this is? Because you haven't clued them in? Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dastar at ncal.verio.com Thu Jul 1 22:04:35 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: PC form factor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, William Donzelli wrote: > > Since most folks are right-handed, having the drives on the right is pretty > > reasonable. The physical design was allegedly patterened after the > > pple-][ whose market IBM coveted. > > I really doubt that they looked at Apple for the design. IBM has pretty > much been on top of the pile as far as ergonomics and ease of maintenance > since the 1950s. Sure, the PC is not exactly their shining moment, but it > does show some thought for a design with a low production cost in mind. Acually, there are rumors abound that IBM modeled the PC after the successful Apple ][. But, rhey are just rumors and anecdotes passed around like those in Dick's message. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Jul 1 22:08:53 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. Message-ID: <3336d350.24ad8745@aol.com> Hey Hans! In a message dated 7/1/99 2:56:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de writes: > P.P.S.: and speaking of _great_ ideas without big impact (beside > technology) - I'm still looking for a well maintained, > but cheap C-5 You really know your Sinclairs! A C5? Really??? I'm too old to push the pedals when going uphill . . . BTW, thanks for the nice defense of the Sinclair line and its international clones. Did you know that a Spectrum clone is still being manufactured in Russia? Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0 From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Jul 1 22:45:49 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. Message-ID: Hello Tony: In a message dated 7/1/99 5:07:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > Admission time... I have quite a collection of home computers as well, Ha! I _knew_ it!! ;>) >> Why do the Brits hate the BBC Micro? > No idea. In fact I didn't know we did Must just be the ZX Brits I usually hang around with . . . > Hmm... Unix came out first on a PDP7, but later versions ran on the > PDP11. I am not sure where C came in all this, but there are certainly > PDP11 versions. > I've never heard of either fitting on a PDP8. See -- I told you I was ignorant of these machines . . . > BTW, you can get a license from SCO for the old PDP11 unices (source code > :-)) for $100 for home use only. Nice to know they're still available. $100 seems fair. Anyway, thanks for all the great information re large computers. For years I've read about them and used code which was developed on them, but I've never seen or touched one. Any tips on where to stumble onto some of this gear, other than just hanging around universities, waiting for them to throw something out? Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0 From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 1 22:50:32 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 XT References: <5478f2b.24ad8090@aol.com> Message-ID: <377C3708.4E5B6178@rain.org> PATTON2R@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings all, > I am trying to see if I can get an IBM 5150 working still. I was > wondering if anyone out there can tell me: > > 1. If the IBM 5150 XT computer came with documentation Yes, the Guide To Operations Personal Computer XT and I believe there were a couple of other small manuals included. > 2. Is an IBM monitor, model # 5153 (Personal Computer Color Display) is > compatible with an IBM 5150 XT? > 3. What kind of monitor (graphics array) is an IBM 5153. I would guess > EGA, but don't know. The Personal Computer Color display is a CGA monitor. Talking about it being compatible with the PC is not a valid question since it is the controller that determines what monitor can be used. The switch settings on the motherboard of both the PC and XT are settable for mono, CGA, and EGA adapter cards. Schematics for the 5150 and peripherals were available in the IIRC Technical Reference Manual and the Options and Adapters Manuals. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 1 22:53:54 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 XT In-Reply-To: <5478f2b.24ad8090@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jul 1999 PATTON2R@aol.com wrote: > Greetings all, > I am trying to see if I can get an IBM 5150 working still. I was > wondering if anyone out there can tell me: > 1. If the IBM 5150 XT computer came with documentation The XT is NOT a 5150. That's like a VW Karmann Ghia Bug. Which is it? 5150 is _PC_. You can recognize it by the FIVE expansion slots. 5160 is _XT_. You can recognize it by the EIGHT expansion slots. There are numerous other less visible differences. Both came with "Guide to operations", and "BASIC" in canvas sleeved binders. Other manuals, such as "Technical Reference Manual" were available separately. > 2. Is an IBM monitor, model # 5153 (Personal Computer Color Display) is > compatible with an IBM 5150 XT? > 3. What kind of monitor (graphics array) is an IBM 5153. I would guess > EGA, but don't know. CGA. If the computer has a CGA video board, then it'll be fine. But if you plug it into an MDA board, you can damage it. From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Jul 1 22:55:18 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. Message-ID: <84b76eef.24ad9226@aol.com> Hey Tony: In a message dated 7/1/99 5:13:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > I started on an MK14. It took me many years to figure out that darn > manual. And the hardware design was somewhat clueless (hint : A 74157 is > a multiplexer. A 74175 is a latch. Using the former as a latch is > possible, but not a good idea if you want to avoid timing problems. Guess > what this machine did...) What's really amazing about the MK14 design is that the original, which Clive bought from one of his buddies, was never used. Your MK14 was in fact designed by National Semi. They convinced Clive that it would be cheaper and more efficient if the kit used more NS components, and they offered to provide the design free, if he signed an exclusive contract. Glen Goodwin 0/0 From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Jul 1 23:15:44 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader.# Message-ID: <3e484e82.24ad96f0@aol.com> Hello Richard: In a message dated 7/1/99 7:47:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, edick@idcomm.com writes: > I was given my first Mouse Systems > Optical Mouse back in '82. That reminds me, I have a functional one from about '85 -- maybe I'll put it on Ebay: Genuine Collectors Item -- RARE pre-Windows optical mouse ;>) Glen Goodwin 0/0 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jul 2 01:17:08 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: PC form factor In-Reply-To: References: <003901bec432$fb34c120$43483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <199907020418.GAA16332@horus.mch.sni.de> > > Since most folks are right-handed, having the drives on the right is pretty > > reasonable. The physical design was allegedly patterened after the > > pple-][ whose market IBM coveted. > I really doubt that they looked at Apple for the design. IBM has pretty > much been on top of the pile as far as ergonomics and ease of maintenance > since the 1950s. Sure, the PC is not exactly their shining moment, but it > does show some thought for a design with a low production cost in mind. The aim was forshure on the A2 market, and whengoing to beat the top kid on the block it's a must to have a look. Most features point right on the A2. But as Allison already pointed out, with a certain goal, this design comes almost automaticly - just have a look at the BASIS 108 as an early, better Apple clone - Looks like an IBM-PC (but sold way before). Gruss H. -- Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Fri Jul 2 01:17:08 1999 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. In-Reply-To: <3336d350.24ad8745@aol.com> Message-ID: <199907020418.GAA16335@horus.mch.sni.de> > > P.P.S.: and speaking of _great_ ideas without big impact (beside > > technology) - I'm still looking for a well maintained, > > but cheap C-5 > You really know your Sinclairs! A C5? Really??? I'm too old to push the > pedals when going uphill . . . So, your's is for sale ? :)) > BTW, thanks for the nice defense of the Sinclair line and its international > clones. Did you know that a Spectrum clone is still being manufactured in > Russia? I'm notrealy shure for tahat, but if you tell. Gruss H. -- Traue keinem Menschen der 5 Tage blutet und immer noch nicht tod ist. From Glenatacme at aol.com Thu Jul 1 23:29:23 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... Message-ID: <9a09cb85.24ad9a23@aol.com> Hello Tony: In a message dated 7/1/99 8:03:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > I still want to know why my old Williamson (15W RMS) > sounds a _lot_ louder than the '240W' PC speakers The clue is in your mention of RMS. Your PC speakers are rated by PMPO, "Peak Music Power Output," and this 240W rating is for both channels combined. Your Williamson is 15W _per_channel_, for a total of 30W RMS. Since PMPO usually represents about 5 percent of the true RMS output, each of your amplified PC speakers is good for about 6W RMS, for a total of about 12W (with huge distortion at that output level). Even this rating of the PC speakers is probably grossly exaggerated. There are Watts, and then there are Watts. At least, this is the case with the speakers we sell in our shop. ;>) Glen Goodwin 0/0 From marvin at rain.org Fri Jul 2 00:20:00 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader.# References: <3e484e82.24ad96f0@aol.com> Message-ID: <377C4C00.61030D@rain.org> Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: > > > I was given my first Mouse Systems > > Optical Mouse back in '82. > > That reminds me, I have a functional one from about '85 -- maybe I'll put it > on Ebay: > > Genuine Collectors Item -- RARE pre-Windows optical mouse I understand the optical pads for the Sun Mouse Systems mice are somewhat difficult to find. Is it possible the pads are the same? From edick at idcomm.com Fri Jul 2 00:53:04 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: PC form factor Message-ID: <002501bec44f$27538cc0$76483cd1@fuj03> That's quite correct. It was a stupid, Stupid, STUPID plan exhausting air from the PC and drawing air through all the front-loading devices, e.g disk drives, etc. That prevented a nice sensible filtering scheme like many people have implemented by adding a fan to the PSU after reversing the fan that's in there. They sandwich a filter between the fans to offset the head loss due to the filter. This keeps the power supply components much cleaner, as well as keeping the dust from settling so quickly on internal components. The cooling is substantially improved and the dust accumulation is decimated. All this extends the life of not only the power supply, but the active components in the PC as well, as the heat transfer is more efficient when laminar flow at the component surfaces isn't hampered by dust most of the time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 8:52 PM Subject: Re: PC form factor > >I don't think it was borrowed as much as there are few choices when >you put most of the meat on one card. Packaging hardware is an >older art than the PC. > >Personally it was a horrid layout with poor airflow for cooling. > >Allison > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Jul 2 00:58:46 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: PC form factor Message-ID: <003601bec44f$f2e35dc0$76483cd1@fuj03> I was acquainted with a couple of guys from the Niwot plant (IBM) who were temporarily assigned to BOCA for the PC development effort. The company actually gathered quite a number of hobbyists to see what information they could get from them. Apparently they didn't listen too well. Back in '81, when the PC came out, it was pretty widely believed that IBM had gotten the form factor for its cards and the notion of packaging for I/O in the way they used from the Apple-][. It (Apple) was, after all, the most successful single company in the personal computer market and seizing a major share of the desktop market. Their approach wasn't a bad one from the I/O convenience standpoint. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 9:09 PM Subject: Re: PC form factor >On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, William Donzelli wrote: > >> > Since most folks are right-handed, having the drives on the right is pretty >> > reasonable. The physical design was allegedly patterened after the >> > pple-][ whose market IBM coveted. >> >> I really doubt that they looked at Apple for the design. IBM has pretty >> much been on top of the pile as far as ergonomics and ease of maintenance >> since the 1950s. Sure, the PC is not exactly their shining moment, but it >> does show some thought for a design with a low production cost in mind. > >Acually, there are rumors abound that IBM modeled the PC after the >successful Apple ][. But, rhey are just rumors and anecdotes passed >around like those in Dick's message. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 05/25/99] > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Jul 2 01:02:37 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader.# Message-ID: <004301bec450$7d1c7f80$76483cd1@fuj03> sounds like a quote from me . . . the mouse I got back in '82 or so was, in fact a SUN mouse. It used TTL levels rather than RS-232, but the optical pad was the same I was later used to seeing at the SUN workstations. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 11:25 PM Subject: Re: Article about collecting in Antique Trader.# > > >Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: >> >> > I was given my first Mouse Systems >> > Optical Mouse back in '82. >> >> That reminds me, I have a functional one from about '85 -- maybe I'll put it >> on Ebay: >> >> Genuine Collectors Item -- RARE pre-Windows optical mouse > >I understand the optical pads for the Sun Mouse Systems mice are somewhat >difficult to find. Is it possible the pads are the same? From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Jul 2 01:35:18 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: Todays salvage yard finds In-Reply-To: References: <001a01bec42e$58171500$43483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: I feel pretty good about the stuff I found today, Two Teletype 33 manuals (technical and parts), an 8525-286 (cute little color all in one that boots right up), a Tandy 1000 HX, Commodor 64k, and a fair assortment of cable doodads and odds and ends. One such odd end is a adapter cable that has that real wide, wider than a RJ45 but with side clips on one end, and a female DB9 on the other (could this be some kind of keyboard adapter?). I am working on a big post of all my odd bits, but it could take a week or more. I sure hope the HP3000 doesn't go to the metal shredder, but nobody has stepped up to the plate to buy it yet. I spent some time looking at the MassPar today too. Front panel says model 2204, plate on the rear of each unit reads (two boxes side by side, plus workstation); Model MP1200 S/N MS12 - 102 - 292 Model MPDA S/N MSDA - 056 - 162 DecStation 5000 / 200 with a storage unit and a VR299 display. Six binders of manuals are also in a box; Digital hardware install guide hardware operations guide MassPar Fortran (two manuals) hardware Libraries From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Jul 2 01:45:06 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: PC form factor In-Reply-To: <002501bec44f$27538cc0$76483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: >That's quite correct. It was a stupid, Stupid, STUPID plan exhausting air >from the PC and drawing air through all the front-loading devices, e.g disk OTOH some of the model 95's I picked up recently clearly lived all their lives in a clean room, not a speck of dust anyplace in them. From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jul 1 20:56:49 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader.# Message-ID: <000001bec47d$3ee4f120$d747883e@dangermouse> Hi, >> P.S.: If you continue, I might be interested in getting a PERQ :) > >You should be. It's an interesting machine. Just be warned that >microcoding is addictive... You've certainly piqued my interest.... :-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From mikeford at netwiz.net Fri Jul 2 05:30:59 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: FW: Looking for REAL old parts (IBM 5155 + 5170) In-Reply-To: <377e1a82.377629282@smtp.jps.net> References: <377BCCA2.2C7DDEAC@wxs.nl> <377BCCA2.2C7DDEAC@wxs.nl> Message-ID: > If anyone feels like helping this fellow out, please reply directly. >>>- TWO ORIGINAL 5.25" inch diskdrives (360Kb Half Height. I tink they're >>>black) One of the salvage places I frequent just got in a gaylord (the big cardboard box that fits on a pallet) of what appears to be "new" service spares of 5.25 inch floppy drives. Lots of teac, but also a fair amount of odd bits like Tandon. As usual I don't have a clue about what I should dig out, so if people supply me with a clue I will do a little digging. Mercenary note, I generally won't dig anything out of a box for less than $5. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Jul 2 07:27:06 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: <199907020246.AA22839@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Jul 1, 1999 10:46: 4 pm" Message-ID: <199907021227.IAA51707@pechter.dyndns.org> > If you have a good answer, write a book. ;) Personally I believe it's > a total lack of knowledge and therefore they don't have the first clue > many of the early hobby machines of the altair ilk were "engineers toys" > or at least damm sharp techie types that werent afraid to read a few books. > Look at COMP.OS.CPM and you have someone looking for z80 data in electronic > form, one wonders if a library is near his home. > > I will not speak of the damage done by the unknowing that cant solder either > or think a hotter iron will help the solder stick. > > Allison > The libraries here don't keep the old stuff too long. I just bought Andy Johnson-Laird's book (a second copy) and the Sybex CP/M Handbook for $0.25 each from the local library. They were even dumping books on Word Perfect and Word Perfect 6.x for Windows (got 'em too). Bet they keep the MS-Office books. 8-( I like Ami Pro and WS 6 the best of all of them doggone word processors. (I'll still use FrameMaker and vi with troff most of the time for my own stuff.) Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jul 2 07:32:35 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: PC form factor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >That's quite correct. It was a stupid, Stupid, STUPID plan exhausting air > >from the PC and drawing air through all the front-loading devices, e.g disk Any system that does that is not sound cooling wise from expereince. I've always concluded the PS2 line were better designed from most points of view than the earlier PCs and clones. Allison From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Jul 2 07:45:51 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: <001a01bec42e$58171500$43483cd1@fuj03> from Richard Erlacher at "Jul 1, 1999 7:57:39 pm" Message-ID: <199907021245.IAA51766@pechter.dyndns.org> > Unfortunately, the presence of the PC with its virtually plug-and-play > (chuckle) readily available boards and the MAC with it's even less difficult > to set up peripherals, have led the world to believe that devices should > just naturally play together. > > Anyone who's worked with DEC equipment knows that isn't true. Once upon a > time, I worked for a DEC-addicted client whose system required redundant > PDP11-44's. The DEC folks would deliver the hardware on one day, set up the > first rack the second day, get the basic hardware to run on the third, and > then one or two days at a time, get the rest to work together. Then there > was the second rack . . . Geez. Someone did something VERY wrong. I used to drop identical DEC boxes in at AT&T and the various telcos without ever finding anything different in 'em. They were identical down to the dip switches (and the head leads in the RK05's being reversed in the second drive so the operators couldn't interchange the packs in the machines). Some of the systems were SARTS (11/34A's) -- later Vax systems, COSMOS (11/70's with third party comm gear), SCAMOS, etc. It all depends on how the machines were spec'd and ordered. DEC used to charge considerable money to meet the Bell System standard. I tend to think someone didn't do their homework on the ordering or spec. (I also think you had Vax-only techs working on PDP's. Was this perhaps after the year 1984? I think DEC's field service tech quality began to fall down seriously after that point. They began to think that all you need to do is swap boards and you didn't have to hire folks who could understand how machines worked.) Bell supplied full system docs including dip switches, special cable pin-outs (where required), special cabinet specs. etc... > Now, even though the two machines had been specifically ordered to be > "identical in every way" at a considerable premium, it was not unusual for > the DEC folks to have to swap each rack in its entirety several times before > they actually had two from which you could extract a board and exchange it > with the corresponding board in the other and not have both machines fall > apart. Usually, while this was happening, the other 30 or so of us were in > day-for-day schedule slip. > I think someone was bull@#$R%&^Y on the special order and just took delivery on similar configurations due to time constraints then. The only time I've seen stuff come in misconfigured like you describe was on some military inteligence stuff (Bill, we can't tell you where this is going) but I pulled the installation paperwork the product line docs said military intelligence. This was about 15 years ago... Where it's going is a secret (but they were shipping to Colorado). My guess was Cheyenne Mountain (or something like that). It was a dual mirrored 11/70 system in special tempest systems cabinets and required riggers to move it. It would normally take 1 week to 10 days to shake out the configuration. They allotted 7 total days in their schedule for install and for tempest testing. Half of it didn't work after they shipped it to me. The CSS (Computer Special Systems guys) had special bus switches, cables and diags). It was too hot in the facility to run the machine more than a couple of hours in the testing facility due to the 85+ degree heat. They were supposed to run the full system pair mirrored and test. We barely got one RP06 and system up and on line -- but they had to ship anyway. This was my worst experience with military DEC hardware -- I was DEC's guy at Fort Monmouth, NJ for five years and a government contractor at the Fort on DEC and other hardware for about 5 more. I will never say anything good about the government contractor involved in this project (there's a town in Georgia with the same name as the company now merged company). > > Dick Bill (an Ex-DEC tech who left them in 1986) From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jul 2 09:00:29 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 XT In-Reply-To: <5478f2b.24ad8090@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990702090029.2227acc8@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:40 PM 7/1/99 EDT, you wrote: >Greetings all, > I am trying to see if I can get an IBM 5150 working still. I was >wondering if anyone out there can tell me: > > 1. If the IBM 5150 XT computer came with documentation Yes, They came with a DOS manual, an Exploring the IBM PC manual and a bunch of loose leaf inserts for each option. I'm not certain but I think their was a hardware manual of some sort that the inserts went into. I don't have that manual but I still have many of the inserts. I have one in front of me, it's titled "Option Instructions Color/Graphic Monitor Adapter". This one is for the CGA card. Here is a list of the inserts that I know of: Switch Setting Charts, IBM Monochrome Display, IBM Color Display, IBM Monochrome Display and Printer Adapter, Color/Graphics Monitor Adapter, IBM Printers, Printer Adapter, 5 1/4" Diskette Drive, 10 Megabyte Fixed Disk Drive, 10 Megabyte Fixed Disk Drive Adapter, 64 KB Memory Module Kit, 64/256KB Memory Expansion, IBM Math Coprocessor, Game Control Adapter, Prototype Card, IBM Personal Computer Expansion Unit, AsynchronousCommunications Adapter, Binary Synchronous Communications Adapter, Synchronous Data Link Control (SDLC) Communications Adapter, IBM Cummunications Adapter. > 2. Is an IBM monitor, model # 5153 (Personal Computer Color Display) is >compatible with an IBM 5150 XT? Yes, if you have the CGA card installed. > 3. What kind of monitor (graphics array) is an IBM 5153. I would guess >EGA, but don't know. Nope it's CGA. The EGA ones say "Enhanced Color Graphics" or something close to that. Joe From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Jul 2 07:54:35 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:44:59 2005 Subject: PC form factor In-Reply-To: <003901bec432$fb34c120$43483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:31:24 -0600 Richard Erlacher wrote: > The Apple-][ had its supply on the left and had no > internal drives. So did the BBC Micro! No expansion slots on the BBC, though. > I don't remember whether the Apple III had internal > drives. It did, a single 5.25inch floppy disk. The Apple III had a *huge* diecasting for the chassis, covered in fins on the back for heat dissipation -- and no fan. The slots (only about three of them) were in the middle of the rear of the machine. The big metal chassis helped with RF screening, too, and the cards had PS/2 MCA style rear panels to make a good earth. Two neat features of the Apple III: 1. Two-speed auto-repeat on the cursor keys: press harder for faster cursor movement. 2. All the expansion cards had a large hole near the top to facilitate levering them out with a screwdriver. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From estechmann at abivest.com Fri Jul 2 08:23:15 1999 From: estechmann at abivest.com (Eric Stechmann) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: subscribe Message-ID: <377CBD43.26D1A8DB@abivest.com> -- Eric Stechmann Direct: +1 (651) 234-1217 Software Critter Fax: +1 (651) 490-1484 American Biosystems, Inc. E-mail: estechmann@abivest.com 20 Yorkton Court URL: www.abivest.com St.Paul MN 55117 The program said "Requires Windows 9* or better" so I bought a Macintosh. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jul 2 08:27:34 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: References: <01BEC3D6.AD018C10.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990702082734.0116caf0@vpwisfirewall> At 07:34 PM 7/1/99 -0400, LordTyran wrote: > >Good point! I *do* collect the 386s and 486s... > Even if they takee a while, they're still useful >for Distributed.Net and SETI@HOME stuff... Not really, if you consider the price of electricity. - John From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Fri Jul 2 09:57:25 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment Available In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990701193313.0079ddb0@pop3.portal.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990702075725.0306ec10@ferrari.sfu.ca> Thanks Dallas, I have forwarded this to the classiccmp mailing list, for those Commodore enthusiasts. Anyone interested, get back to me or Dallas and we will hook you up with the originator, Otto Brandt. Kevin At 07:33 PM 99/07/01 -0800, you wrote: >Hi Kevin .. a forwarded message which you might be interested in: > > >>From : Otto Brandt >To : Dallas Hinton >Subj : Log-off comment > >Would you or anyone you know be interested in Commodore equipt, eg >1571, 1581 floppies, wide carriage printer, CBM 128, color monitor mostly >working (some keys and contacts might have oxide problems due to lack of use) >I am asking for a friend >Cheers, Dallas > > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From arfonrg at texas.net Fri Jul 2 10:06:58 1999 From: arfonrg at texas.net (Arfon Gryffydd) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: Keyboard repair parts? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990702100658.0095a450@207.207.0.212> Anyone know where to find keyboard repair parts for old 8-bit machines? Any good mail-order stores? Anyone remember the makers of the keyboards, switches, and/or key caps and color names? (I remember that Cherry made the TRS-80s keyboards.) ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jul 2 12:08:32 1999 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990702130832.00997b30@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Glenatacme@aol.com may have mentioned these words: >In a message dated 6/30/99 7:04:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >scott@saskatoon.com writes: >> Also, back to the question above, I think by 1982 we might also have had >> the Atari400. The C64 must have been around this time too. Probably the >> Coco as well. Really, 1982 is pretty close to the start of the 8bit >> explosion. > >CoCo I'm not sure of (without checking), 400 & C64 yes. But, all of these >sold for many times the cost of a ZX81. Additionally, none of the above have >that perfect wedge shape, which really does make a perfect door-stop. ;>) The CoCo was up for sale in Fall of 1979, IIRC, and sales lasted on the CoCo3 thru mid-1992 (again, IIRC). I'm pretty sure that it was the first commercial 8-bitter with a multi-user, multi-tasking OS available as well... (when did M/PM (??) arrive?) IIRC, OS/9 was available around the fall of 1981. The CoCo also had a nice wedge shape to it giving it those nice doorstop properties... however, as it was much bigger, you needed a much bigger door to stop. ;-) See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jul 2 12:11:11 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: Keyboard repair parts? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990702100658.0095a450@207.207.0.212> Message-ID: >Anyone know where to find keyboard repair parts for old 8-bit machines? >Any good mail-order stores? > >Anyone remember the makers of the keyboards, switches, and/or key caps and >color names? >(I remember that Cherry made the TRS-80s keyboards.) Best advice I can think of on this is don't toss broken keyboards, save them for parts. You might also be able to unsolder, and refurbish the keyswitch yourself. I've done this with an Apple Extended II keyboard (just to nice a keyboard to toss). With a couple of old Mac Plus's I took another broken keyboard and used it for parts to get two fully functional keyboards (the Plus it went to was also used as parts). Of course with some systems canablization isn't the answer, and depending on the system, many of us, myself included might consider it criminal :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jul 2 12:28:12 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: Keyboard repair parts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Best advice I can think of on this is don't toss broken keyboards, save > them for parts. You might also be able to unsolder, and refurbish the > keyswitch yourself. I've done this with an Apple Extended II keyboard > (just to nice a keyboard to toss). With a couple of old Mac Plus's I took > another broken keyboard and used it for parts to get two fully functional > keyboards (the Plus it went to was also used as parts). Good advice, but Fair Radio Sales may have a bunch of extra keyboards of all shapes and sizes. Look them up on the web, as I am too lazy to find it myself. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Fri Jul 2 13:12:19 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: Keyboard repair parts? Message-ID: <19990702181219.28799.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Of course with some systems canablization isn't the answer I've got this keyboard that well illustrates that point - the SX-64. I got one cheap because the keyboard was fubared and a previous owner attempted to repair it. Fortunately for me, I happened to have *just the keyboard* and nothing else (equipment attraction, obviously ;-) For those that don't know the design, the SX-64 is a luggable C-64 with integral color CRT and 1541 disk drive. The only thing missing is a cassette port, making certain packet radio and other external hardware useless to it. The keyboard detaches from the front/top of the unit, connects with a 24-pin cable (DB-25 with a keying pin) and while it has real keys for the user to type on, is a single-sheet membrane inside with all the circuit paths and conductive areas. More than one SX-64 is sitting around out there because its keyboard has failed. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Jul 2 15:47:10 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: subscribe In-Reply-To: <377CBD43.26D1A8DB@abivest.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990702154710.2227df90@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:23 AM 7/2/99 -0500, Eric wrote: > >-- >Eric Stechmann Direct: +1 (651) 234-1217 >Software Critter Software Critter ???? I'm afraid to ask. Joe From max82 at surfree.com Fri Jul 2 14:20:45 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: PC form factor In-Reply-To: <199907020246.AA23162@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: >Personally it was a horrid layout with poor airflow for cooling. Ah, yes, the airflow issue again. What would you change to improve airflow? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jul 2 15:30:15 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp@world.std.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: PC form factor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ah, yes, the airflow issue again. What would you change to improve > airflow? As Richard said filtered air in the intake, board mounted vertical, orientation of plug in boards in line with primary airflow. Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Jul 2 16:15:41 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <4.1.19990702140328.00b7b490@mcmanis.com> Q: Name the one thing that Classic Computers have that modern computers lack? A: Adequate documentation to write your own system level software on them! What we need is the "Open Hardware" movement. What is Open Hardware? It is a set of specifications for a computer and an interface system that anyone can build processors, I/O, or accessories for without owing any taxes to anyone. However, ideally, this "open architecture" needs a bit of software already available for it to get the movement off the ground. I suggest that the PDP-11 could be that architecture for several reasons: 1) It has lots of software available for it. 2) It can be expressed in a single modern FPGA so processors can be "home built" 3) It has some pretty easy to use busses defined for it (Q-Bus, Unibus) Alternatively one could go with something like SPARC (which Sun alleges is open but I have my doubts) Comments? --Chuck From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Jul 2 16:13:34 1999 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: Keyboard repair parts? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/2/99 8:07:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, arfonrg@texas.net writes: > > Anyone know where to find keyboard repair parts for old 8-bit machines? > Any good mail-order stores? > I have some old keyboards. What are you looking for? Paxton From max82 at surfree.com Fri Jul 2 15:14:22 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: PC form factor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jul 1999 allisonp@world.std.com wrote: >As Richard said filtered air in the intake, board mounted vertical, >orientation of plug in boards in line with primary airflow. That makes sense, except for the board mounted vertical. Why that? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From edick at idcomm.com Fri Jul 2 17:06:10 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: PC form factor Message-ID: <000e01bec4d7$17e8d460$79483cd1@fuj03> Those perforations which many people ended up using for an additional speaker were actually intended as a feeble attempt at encouraging airflow through the vertically mounted cards. Those, if you remember, were full-length back in those days, and because of that fact would have benefitted had there actually been enough pressure difference between outside and inside to cause the air to flow substantially. IBM had people who were really worried about noise, hence wouldn't put a meaningful fan in the box. That little thing in the PSU (which dies more often than any other single component in any PC) won't move enough air to cool things much. It will move enough air to load everything in the box with dust, though. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp@world.std.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 2:36 PM Subject: Re: PC form factor >> Ah, yes, the airflow issue again. What would you change to improve >> airflow? > >As Richard said filtered air in the intake, board mounted vertical, >orientation of plug in boards in line with primary airflow. > >Allison > From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jul 2 17:29:16 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <199907022229.AA22768@world.std.com> <>As Richard said filtered air in the intake, board mounted vertical, <>orientation of plug in boards in line with primary airflow. < from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jul 1, 99 11:45:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1056 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990702/bfd933b0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 16:23:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader.# In-Reply-To: <000001bec47d$3ee4f120$d747883e@dangermouse> from "Peter Pachla" at Jul 2, 99 02:56:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3325 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990702/bc291b6f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 16:32:42 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: <001a01bec42e$58171500$43483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jul 1, 99 07:57:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3527 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990702/a9b8d58a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 17:28:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: Keyboard repair parts? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jul 2, 99 10:11:11 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1166 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990702/7a1332f9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 16:59:26 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 XT In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 1, 99 08:53:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 555 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990702/2a059065/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 16:45:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 XT In-Reply-To: <5478f2b.24ad8090@aol.com> from "PATTON2R@aol.com" at Jul 1, 99 10:40:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2816 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990702/a0b9e3e0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 16:53:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: PC form factor In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jul 1, 99 08:04:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 535 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990702/20105aee/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 15:50:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jul 1, 99 08:17:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3086 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990702/7c5bdec6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 17:07:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... In-Reply-To: <9a09cb85.24ad9a23@aol.com> from "Glenatacme@aol.com" at Jul 2, 99 00:29:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2001 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990702/dd4dd861/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 17:23:19 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: Keyboard repair parts? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990702100658.0095a450@207.207.0.212> from "Arfon Gryffydd" at Jul 2, 99 10:06:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2022 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990702/16d00085/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 16:51:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Jul 1, 99 08:00:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1536 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990702/6c830ebf/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Jul 2 18:19:58 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: Need ID Help Message-ID: <000001bec4e1$6704b500$8d711fd1@5x86jk> Anyone know what a ImageMaker Model IM100 by Presentation Technologies is ?? Saw one today at the thrift for $25 but would not buy since it was unknown to me and was a little high in price. Thanks John From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 2 18:42:00 1999 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: ImageMaker (Re: Need ID Help In-Reply-To: <000001bec4e1$6704b500$8d711fd1@5x86jk> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > Anyone know what a ImageMaker Model IM100 by Presentation Technologies is ?? > Saw one today at the thrift for $25 but would not buy since it was unknown > to me and was a little high in price. Thanks John Don't have a chance right now to check specific models, but I've got one. It's a "slidemaker". outputs graphic images onto 35mm film in an attached Pentax? camera body. Had some goofy presentation graphics software. Don't know if it could be setup/programmed to do bitmap images. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 From elvey at hal.com Fri Jul 2 18:41:41 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: PC form factor In-Reply-To: <199907022229.AA22862@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199907022341.QAA14207@civic.hal.com> allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > <>As Richard said filtered air in the intake, board mounted vertical, > <>orientation of plug in boards in line with primary airflow. > < > > If the fan fails convection flow is helpful. Actually vertical with > airflow from bottom to top works well. > > Allison Hi All Actually air flow is quite complicated. Using muffin type fans makes it worse. Here are some basic rules of thumb. 1. Fast moving air in an open space will find a surface and run along it. 2. The only way to make uniform air flow is with restriction. 3. Rotating air will do strange things until straightened out. ( examples, air coming from a rotary fan and also most air going through a single small restriction ). 4. Laminar flow is best understood but turbulent flow removes more heat. I have seen the above problems cause all kinds of effects that were not obvious at first. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 17:34:15 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: PC form factor In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Jul 2, 99 04:14:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 376 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990702/c56f73aa/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 2 17:40:16 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990702140328.00b7b490@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jul 2, 99 02:15:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2122 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990702/07cfa2a4/attachment.ksh From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Jul 2 18:52:55 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:00 2005 Subject: Surplus finds Message-ID: Today, having the day off, I went Surplus crawling, over to a place I used to work at in the late 70's. It has shrunk from those wonderful days, but a lot of Stuff remains nonetheless. I found a Teletype 33ASR with a full roll of paper tape left in it, and a Wilson Labs MWX-1000 SMD disk tester/execiser. I had to pay more than I thought the Wilson box was worth, because it 'looks cool' and they thought it would make a nice movie prop... which I guess it would. *I*, on the other hand, think it would make an even nicer SMD disk tester, so I rescued it. Aside from some bits and pieces, I saw nothing worth taking home, save for a DEC Punch/Reader in a rack that got smashed, wedging the unit so I couldn't get to it, though it looked to be in good shape other than the rack rails being bent. I know where it is, if someone is looking for one, I could go back and pry it out of it's nest. Now to blow the warehouse dust out of the Teletype and get it working... Cheers John From jpero at cgocable.net Fri Jul 2 15:07:14 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: PC form factor In-Reply-To: <199907022341.QAA14207@civic.hal.com> References: <199907022229.AA22862@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199907030003.UAA25666@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 16:41:41 -0700 (PDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Dwight Elvey > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: PC form factor Snip! Good comments... > > Allison > > Hi All > Actually air flow is quite complicated. Using muffin type fans > makes it worse. Here are some basic rules of thumb. > 1. Fast moving air in an open space will find a surface > and run along it. I append: Air likes least resistance paths. Suppose: bunch of short cards with space above it and space front of it. Most of air will not go into it, it will bypass it. > 2. The only way to make uniform air flow is with restriction. In other words: ducts and shrounds? > 3. Rotating air will do strange things until straightened > out. ( examples, air coming from a rotary fan and also > most air going through a single small restriction ). Tell me about this "rotating air will do strange thing till straightened out" what it do strange thing? And how is done to straighten it out? > 4. Laminar flow is best understood but turbulent > flow removes more heat. Correct. > > I have seen the above problems cause all kinds of effects > that were not obvious at first. Do tell your tales about this! I'm trying to design a case to do cooling of all drives, PSU motherboard and CPU by one large quiet fan and ducts/shrounds. Isssues: noise and reliablity from too many fans. > Dwight Wizard From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Jul 2 19:10:34 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: Local bus schedule In-Reply-To: <3777391F.41907CBA@home.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990702200557.00b57280@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:58 AM 6/28/99 -0700, Doug Coward said something like: -- snip -- >it was locked down to a standard. There is an extended Benton >Harbor Bus which is easily identified as a double row of pins, >instead a single row of pins. That's likely the improved Trionyx motherboard which had the second row of pins which provided a lower impedance ground. I retrofitted my H8 with one of these so I could use some of the faster, more complex option boards Bill was offering (or so I believed from his marketing hype :) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association Check our redesigned website! URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From roblwill at usaor.net Fri Jul 2 22:08:01 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason (the General)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 XT Message-ID: <01bec501$42bbddc0$598ea6d1@the-general> >I thought the CGA monitor was a lot harder to damage. If you plug it into >an MDA card, it won't work, but I didn't think it did damage. > It doesn't. I plugged on into an MDA/Hercules card my mistake (thought it was a CGA). All that came up was horizontal fuzz. Put in a CGA card, and it worked fine. Your best bet is to plug it in and try it. If it works, go with it. ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From jpero at cgocable.net Fri Jul 2 15:24:36 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: Mike Ford = email black hole? In-Reply-To: <001501bec344$b0c75b00$4a483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <199907030020.UAA04913@admin.cgocable.net> Every time I wanted to contact someone directly for example Mike Ford, I does not get any replies back. I have no spam block. Just concerned and I mean to do business. Wizard From Mzthompson at aol.com Fri Jul 2 19:23:42 1999 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: Fwd: Dec DELNI, and doc's Message-ID: <8f438293.24aeb20e@aol.com> Anybody interested in these, please respond to him directly. Mike >Subject: Dec DELNI, and doc's >From: John Isenhour >Date: Fri, 02 July 1999 09:50 AM EDT >I have a DEC DELNI that I no longer need, if this is something you could >use make an offer. >Also new set of VMS manuals (not the grey wall but the newer one's that >fit it a box - I'll have to look at version) free to good home for >shipping. From elvey at hal.com Fri Jul 2 19:46:42 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: PC form factor In-Reply-To: <199907030003.UAA25666@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199907030046.RAA14240@civic.hal.com> jpero@cgocable.net wrote: > > 1. Fast moving air in an open space will find a surface > > and run along it. > > I append: Air likes least resistance paths. Suppose: bunch of > short cards with space above it and space front of it. Most of air > will not go into it, it will bypass it. > > > 2. The only way to make uniform air flow is with restriction. Also, if you have a flat surface near this air flow, it will swing to the side and follow that surface. The rest of the volume may even have slight counter flow. > > In other words: ducts and shrounds? No, ducts and shrouds only help to get the air to an area. What I mean is that is you want nice uniform air flow, you need to make something that provides a uniform resistance to air flow across the air flow. Screens and meshes are what I mean. > > > 3. Rotating air will do strange things until straightened > > out. ( examples, air coming from a rotary fan and also > > most air going through a single small restriction ). > > Tell me about this "rotating air will do strange thing till > straightened out" what it do strange thing? And how is done to > straighten it out? Here is an experiment you can try for your self. Take a rotary muffin type fan and place a flat piece of metal across the center such that the air flow would be split on either side. Use an anemometer to see where the air is going. Much to many's surprise, the air will make an angled change and go off to the right or left along the metal surface but not straight out as one would expect. This is why people that are serious about cooling will usually us a squirrel cage fan over a bunch of muffin type fans. Squirrel cage fans output a mostly non-rotating air flow. > > Do tell your tales about this! I'm trying to design a case to do > cooling of all drives, PSU motherboard and CPU by one large quiet > fan and ducts/shrounds. Isssues: noise and reliablity from too many > fans. > The best solution is to provide impingement cooling where cooling is needed and an air extraction system. Dwight From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Jul 2 20:01:05 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: 1975 Dollars (was RE: State of the Hobby) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990702205512.00b25aa0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 11:10 AM 7/1/99 -0700, Kai Kaltenbach said something like: >I grabbed the Consumer Price Index history off the web, pasted into Excel, >and applied the percentage changes cumulative from 1975. > >One 1998 dollar = $2.95 in 1975 dollars (ouch, those Carter administration >years! Thank goodness for Greenspan) > >Therefore, an assembled Altair 8800 with 4x2K static RAM, serial, parallel, >cassette, and bus expansion, $1880 in 1975 dollars, would be the equivalent >of $5546 today. > >An Apple Lisa base configuration ($9995 in 1983 dollars) would be $16,169 >today. > >Kai > > -----Original Message----- >From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust@threedee.com] >Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 10:45 AM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Re: State of the Hobby > >At 11:02 AM 7/1/99 -0600, you wrote: >> >>In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at >>$565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was >>in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. > >I suppose there must be a web site, somewhere, that would let you enter >a date and a US dollar amount, and would show you the equivalent value >in today's dollars, accounting for actual inflation, etc. in the >intervening years. Actually there is something that should give some sort of results you are looking for. Here's a useful site I found quite awhile ago that is on the Johnson Space Center server: http://krakatoa.jsc.nasa.gov/bu2/inflate.html and look at the "GDP Deflator Inflation Calculator" link. I suppose it's a valuable tool to forecast project expenses into the future as project development can last for many years in NASA. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association Check our redesigned website! URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From jpero at cgocable.net Fri Jul 2 16:11:19 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: PC form factor In-Reply-To: <199907030046.RAA14240@civic.hal.com> References: <199907030003.UAA25666@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199907030107.VAA29792@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 17:46:42 -0700 (PDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Dwight Elvey > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: PC form factor > jpero@cgocable.net wrote: > > > 1. Fast moving air in an open space will find a surface > > > and run along it. > > > > I append: Air likes least resistance paths. Suppose: bunch of > > short cards with space above it and space front of it. Most of air > > will not go into it, it will bypass it. > > > > > 2. The only way to make uniform air flow is with restriction. > > Also, if you have a flat surface near this air flow, it will > swing to the side and follow that surface. The rest of the volume > may even have slight counter flow. True, sometimes I noticed that. I remembered doing a experiment blowing into narrow end of funnel and only air races across surface and air do DRAWS in middle. (!!). > > In other words: ducts and shrounds? > > No, ducts and shrouds only help to get the air to an area. > What I mean is that is you want nice uniform air flow, > you need to make something that provides a uniform resistance > to air flow across the air flow. Screens and meshes are > what I mean. Thanks, keep in mind about this. I was thinking how I get even airflow thru series of slots and holes cut along certain length of a duct. The series of holes is appox length of 8 cards in length for that application so I could cool all cards by negative pressure thru that duct to a exhausting fan to outside. > > Tell me about this "rotating air will do strange thing till > > straightened out" what it do strange thing? And how is done to > > straighten it out? > Snip! > straight out as one would expect. This is why people that > are serious about cooling will usually us a squirrel cage > fan over a bunch of muffin type fans. Squirrel cage > fans output a mostly non-rotating air flow. Oh, I know about that because I can tell it blows rotating air in a cone shaped flow due to "flinging" air outwards because of rotation, but I was asking u why it's would do strange things and what is the _method_ to straighten it out properly? My comments: Rotary fans mounted on heatsinks have a dead spot about 20% more than the area of the fan motor and very inefficient! Blowers is not that easy to obtain except from electronic supplier at greater cost. > > fan and ducts/shrounds. Isssues: noise and reliablity from too many > > fans. > > > > > The best solution is to provide impingement cooling where > cooling is needed and an air extraction system. > Dwight Dwight, exactly, I forgot to say that I'm PULLING air from heat producing components via shrouds around heatsinks and ducts to draw out hot air from cards and PSU. Like vacuuming up hot air and keep it seperated from cooler air till exhausted outside. Wizard From reif at magicnet.net Fri Jul 2 20:44:15 1999 From: reif at magicnet.net (Robert Reif) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: Unisoft UNIX wanted. Message-ID: <377D6AEE.2A9AB1E1@magicnet.net> Hi, I'm looking for Unisoft UNIX for either a CompuPro 68K, or a Dual Systems Corporation S-100 system. Thanks, Bob. From elvey at hal.com Fri Jul 2 20:18:26 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: PC form factor In-Reply-To: <199907030107.VAA29792@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199907030118.SAA14273@civic.hal.com> jpero@cgocable.net wrote: > but I was asking u why it's would do strange things and what is the > _method_ to straighten it out properly? Hi I've seen a honey comb aluminum used on mil stuff but I've never been able to find a good source. Similar thing will work. For experimenting, a stack of thin strips of corrugated cardboard will work. > > Dwight, exactly, I forgot to say that I'm PULLING air from heat > producing components via shrouds around heatsinks and ducts to draw > out hot air from cards and PSU. Like vacuuming up hot air and keep > it seperated from cooler air till exhausted outside. Only problem here is that pulling air is slightly less effective at cooling than blowing. Still, you'll end up better than simply dumping air from a fan into an enclosure. Dwight From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Fri Jul 2 21:08:27 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jul 2, 1999 11:40:16 pm" Message-ID: <199907030208.WAA00538@pechter.dyndns.org> > > 3) It has some pretty easy to use busses defined for it (Q-Bus, Unibus) > > Does anyone know what DEC's restrictions are on these buses now? At one > time they were patented by DEC, and you could only (legally) homebrew a > certain number of cards per machine. > > > > > Alternatively one could go with something like SPARC (which Sun alleges is > > open but I have my doubts) > > I don't think the processor is the problem, is it? You can get a pentium > data sheet with enough info to write low-level software for the machine. > > -tony > > > As far as I know DEC never enforced any patent restrictions on building Unibus or Q-Bus cards. They did kill anyone who tried to do Massbus or Cache-Bus interfaces on the 11's. Bill --- bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, The one who does Field Service and the one who signs your check. From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jul 2 21:21:24 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > But also, I've learnt a lot about _real_ computer design and operation > from these old machines. You'll learn a lot more sitting down for a day > with a PDP8/e and a logic analyser than you'll learn from most books on > computer logic. Oh yes, indeed, there is nothing like an old machine to learn about computer architecture. This does not mean that modern machines are not learning tool - no way. One can learn all sorts of nifty things about operating systems (NO M$ slams, please) and higher level languages - things that sometimes are near impossible on an old system (OOP for a PDP-8/e? I don't think so!). Learning basic computer architecture (gate level) and assembly is basically impossible on most of today's machines simply due to complexity - most processors are becoming dataflow and/or superscalar, and these days compliers have to deal with all sorts of conditions that do not exist on (most) classic machines, like instruction ordering to keep the pipes full. In other words, the learning potential has changed - not for the good or for the worse, but just changed. > Please remember that this list is international. And that not all of us > have well payed jobs, or even jobs at all. I couldn't consider spending > twice my _annual_ income on an Altair. Heck, I have to stop and think > before I spend my weekly income on common 8-bit micro. !!! > > This is (mostly) America, as they say. Work your butt off and get ahead > > I am _NOT_ in America. Please remember that the conditions in other > countries are very different. I knew this was going to happen. "Mostly" means that 95% of this list goes to Americans. Anyway, can you not do the same in the the U.K., Germany, Japan, or whatever developed country we may live in? Are foriegn electronics and computer industries (again, assuming that many of us are in the industry) really in that bad of shape? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jul 2 21:28:12 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <199907022229.AA22768@world.std.com> Message-ID: > Too highend. Yes, but the highend SPARC stuff tends to become cheap - SPARCstation 1s these days are almost free. Anyway, some of the older SPARC boxes have really nice 9U VME cages. By the way, the SPARC architecture really is open - there are lots of things SPARC that are not Sun/Solaris. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From cube at msn.fullfeed.com Fri Jul 2 22:00:01 1999 From: cube at msn.fullfeed.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: pdp11 schematics In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990701142729.03d1fcb0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> Message-ID: <199907030304.WAA09204@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com> You are correct. It wasn't. (Isn't, in the case of my two machines... 8-) ). > >Hmmm... I didn't think the 11/20 was microcoded (although all other >PDP11s are AFAIK). > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection Jay.Jaeger@msn.fullfeed.com visit http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~cube From edick at idcomm.com Fri Jul 2 22:03:15 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <000601bec500$98c6f480$46483cd1@fuj03> Before you go off picking a bus because the cards look "neat" shouldn't you agree on what your goals are? Some of these suggestions indicate that certain people like certain things, but there's really been no discussion of why one might want to use one or another. In the absence of goals/requirements, there can be no analysis or design. Does anybody know where this is supposed to lead? Dick -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 8:34 PM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) >> Too highend. > >Yes, but the highend SPARC stuff tends to become cheap - SPARCstation 1s >these days are almost free. Anyway, some of the older SPARC boxes have >really nice 9U VME cages. > >By the way, the SPARC architecture really is open - there are lots of >things SPARC that are not Sun/Solaris. > >William Donzelli >aw288@osfn.org From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Jul 2 22:14:04 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: PC form factor Message-ID: <94d40e12.24aed9fc@aol.com> Hello Dick: In a message dated 7/2/99 6:15:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, edick@idcomm.com writes: > IBM had people who were really worried about noise, hence wouldn't put a > meaningful fan in the box. That little thing in the PSU (which dies more > often than any other single component in any PC) Not to doubt your word, but as owner of a small PC repair shop, my experience (and records) would suggest that the following components have a higher failure rate than power supplies or their fans. In order from highest failure rate: 1) modems -- extremely susceptible to spikes -- our most common repair 2) CD-ROM drives -- easily damaged by jarring the unit -- we sell a lot of replacements 3) floppy drives -- usually a victim of grit which is sucked in through the drive by the power supply fan! Side note: In '88 I had a gig with Gulf Oil/Cumberland Farms. Being a True Blue shop, MIS insisted on nothing less than PS/2-80s at forty loading terminals. About three months after installation, the floppies began to fail. Inspection revealed that since Big Blue, in their wisdom, had failed to build the little closure flap into the drives (probably saved them 10 cents per unit), these machines were not suitable for use in an industrial environment without modification (replacing the drive). Modifying these critters cost IBM a boatload on just this one project; I'm sure there were many more. Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0 From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jul 2 22:20:35 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <000601bec500$98c6f480$46483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: > Does anybody know where this is supposed to lead? Off topic? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jul 2 22:24:46 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: PC form factor In-Reply-To: <94d40e12.24aed9fc@aol.com> Message-ID: > Side note: In '88 I had a gig with Gulf Oil/Cumberland Farms. Being a True > Blue shop, MIS insisted on nothing less than PS/2-80s at forty loading > terminals. About three months after installation, the floppies began to > fail. Inspection revealed that since Big Blue, in their wisdom, had failed > to build the little closure flap into the drives (probably saved them 10 > cents per unit), these machines were not suitable for use in an industrial > environment without modification (replacing the drive). As one who has spend quite a bit of time in industrial environments, I would say that MIS department was a bunch of Bozos for not getting industrial machines. Basically ANY floppy that spends its life at a loading dock is going to die very quickly, followed in short order by the power supply and keyboard. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Jul 2 22:15:00 1999 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby Message-ID: <19990702.222137.245.2.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> On Fri, 2 Jul 1999 21:50:16 +0100 (BST) ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: >Please remember that this list is international. And that not all of >us have well payed jobs, or even jobs at all. I couldn't consider >spending twice my _annual_ income on an Altair. Heck, I have to stop >and think before I spend my weekly income on common 8-bit micro. It won't belong before this condition will exist in the States as well. >> > IN the hobby I knew, money was only a very small part of the >> > equation. Used to be, all I needed was a few dollars, some basic >> > tools, and a little luck. Now I need *deep* pockets, too. I'm >> > upset that the 'elite' is putting my favorite passtime out of my reach. > >I think what a lot of us are saying is : > >At one time classic computers were cheap. Anyone could buy them _and_ >they weren't worth buying as an 'investment'. The only reason to buy >them was because you were seriously interested in the machines. Thank You. I *knew* there had to someone out there who actually understood my point. It dosen't surprise me it was someone outside the US. >> Its not the "elite" that have something about cornering the computer >> collectable field - it happens to ALL collectable fields. I have >> seen it happen in two related instances. > >As I have said before, Valve radio/audio was ruined for me when I >could no longer get an old set for a few _pence_ at a jumble sale. The same fate awaits many of us here in the Classic Computing community. Since many of you seem convinced that there is nothing that can be done, I shall publicly discuss this issue no further. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Jul 2 22:43:07 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... Message-ID: <2bae7afd.24aee0cb@aol.com> In a message dated 7/2/99 6:47:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > Actually, a Williamson is a single-channel amplifier Man, I've _got_ to stop posting messages in the middle of the night, when I'm half asleep (as I am now ;>) A lot of Taiwanese jive, is what it boils down to. After playing around with a pair of "200W" speakers today, I'd estimate about 2.5W RMS per channel. > I don't own any such speakers, or indeed, a soundcard. Never seen the need for > > one... Me neither, except that I use the soundcard to transfer programs to cassette for use on my Timex/Sinclairs. > What I am asking for is _any_ kind of justification for the modern kind > of watt... The modern watts sell speakers. Our customers like to hear "big numbers," and don't have a clue as to what those numbers mean or how to verify them, whether it's in reference to watts, MHz, bps, RAM, cache, or disk storage. The box says 200 watts, and people like the look of them. That's my story and I'm sticking to it ;>) Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0 From jpl15 at netcom.com Fri Jul 2 23:25:36 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: 33ASR Update Message-ID: Many, many, thanks to the person who posted the fix for gooey print-hammer pads!! The one I got had turned viscid, so I scraped it off, cleaned the tab, and affixed one of those little peel-n-stick rubber feet. (one trade name is 'Bumpon'). It works perfectly, and is just the right height. Now I am diagnosing the machine.. it has a stuck something in the keyboard/reader. Some keys print a different character, and a few print only their shifted symbol, and vice-versa. Neither does Return work, tho I can trip the pawl by hand and the carriage smacks me in the knuckle every time. Reading a test tape produces the same result. So I am going to spread out the manuals and figure out which codes are getting mangled. Other than that, it seems in good shape, still nicely oiled and all belts in good condition... even the ribbon is still dark, except for the portion that has been exposed for the last twenty years, sitting on that lonely shelf... According to the Laws of Surplus Attractionm can a PDP-8 be far behind?? Cheers John From Glenatacme at aol.com Fri Jul 2 23:58:54 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: PC form factor Message-ID: Hi william: In a message dated 7/2/99 11:25:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, aw288@osfn.org writes: > As one who has spend quite a bit of time in industrial environments, I > would say that MIS department was a bunch of Bozos for not getting > industrial machines. Basically ANY floppy that spends its life at a > loading dock is going to die very quickly, followed in short order by the > power supply and keyboard. Bozos, to say the least. But do you think that a bunch of mainframe guys in 1988 would listen to a lowly PC person? Besides, the IBM guys told them the PCs would be okay, and they had already spent $20 per unit on those plastic prophylactic keyboard skins . . . ;>) After IBM replaced the drives with units which had the flap, they only croaked once a year instead of every three months . . . and always in the middle of reading disk three of a five disk software upgrade which I had sent them . . My most entertaining project ever. Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0 From a2k at one.net Sat Jul 3 00:31:44 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990702082734.0116caf0@vpwisfirewall> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, John Foust wrote: > At 07:34 PM 7/1/99 -0400, LordTyran wrote: > > > >Good point! I *do* collect the 386s and 486s... > > Even if they takee a while, they're still useful > >for Distributed.Net and SETI@HOME stuff... > > Not really, if you consider the price of electricity. > > - John > WHY DOES EVERYBODY HAVE TO BE SO BLASTED PESSIMISTIC?!?! They're just FUN, ok? I enjoy making these things work again! ARGH! Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's you isn't it? THE BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL!" "In the flesh, on the phone and in your account..." -- BOFH #3 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Jul 3 00:51:09 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: 33ASR Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990702225014.00b9bea0@mcmanis.com> Check to see if the shift bar is stuck up on the keyboard. --Chuck At 09:25 PM 7/2/99 -0700, you wrote: > Now I am diagnosing the machine.. it has a stuck something in the >keyboard/reader. Some keys print a different character, and a few >print only their shifted symbol, and vice-versa. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Jul 3 00:52:44 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: References: <000601bec500$98c6f480$46483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <4.1.19990702225115.00ba0c70@mcmanis.com> Well, in my case it was supposed to lead to the development of a really open hardware platform. As for Allison's comment that SPARC is to "high end" I have to disagree. The SPARC architecture was initally a lot less complicated than the PDP-11 architecture. It is the funky MMUs that get in the way. --Chuck At 11:20 PM 7/2/99 -0400, you wrote: >> Does anybody know where this is supposed to lead? > >Off topic? > >William Donzelli >aw288@osfn.org From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jul 3 00:38:38 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: ImageMaker (Re: Need ID Help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101bec516$4d0554e0$94721fd1@5x86jk> Thanks very much for the feedback, does not sound like anything I should pick up. John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > (XenoSoft) > Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 6:42 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: ImageMaker (Re: Need ID Help > > > On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > Anyone know what a ImageMaker Model IM100 by Presentation > Technologies is ?? > > Saw one today at the thrift for $25 but would not buy since it > was unknown > > to me and was a little high in price. Thanks John > > Don't have a chance right now to check specific models, but I've got one. > It's a "slidemaker". outputs graphic images onto 35mm film in an attached > Pentax? camera body. Had some goofy presentation graphics software. > Don't know if it could be setup/programmed to do bitmap images. > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > 2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > From ddameron at earthlink.net Fri Jul 2 22:01:37 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... In-Reply-To: References: <9a09cb85.24ad9a23@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990702220137.26071be8@earthlink.net> At 11:07 PM 7/2/99 +0100, Tony wrote: >What I was really asking is for any kind of justification of the '240W' >figure. Now, most of these speakers seem to have a 6W DC input rating, so >the output power can't be any more than that. > >I wonder if it's something like : > >We have a 12V PSU. So we can get 24V p-p across the speakers (use a >full-bridge output stage). Say 8 ohm speakers, 4 of them (2 per channel). >So we get 24^2/8 *4 = 288W. Yes, I know there's absolutely _no_ >justification for any of that, but then again it is marketroid-speak.... > Boy does that sound like spec. inflation! 24 p-p is just 12 Volt peak in either polarity with a bridge circuit. That gives 12/8 peak amps and 18 peak watts (like with a +/-12 volt square wave). The RMS voltage and currents are these voltages, currents divided by sqrt(2), giving a sine wave power of 9 watts per 8 Ohm speaker, with no voltage drop in the amplifier. Don't tell me these "240 Watt" speakers are powered by 4 "AA" batteries ;)... or use one of the many automobile ic amps that give about 4.5 watts with a 12 Volt supply and a 4 Ohm speaker. -Dave From edick at idcomm.com Sat Jul 3 01:44:28 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <000e01bec51f$80e67ec0$44483cd1@fuj03> Well . . . what could possibly be more "open" than the ISA. It's capable of pretty much anything that the PDP-11 could dish out, AND you can get paid for taking the boards away from a lot of places. Almost any function you care to have is available if you don't want to try to improve on what's available, and the structural components are commonly available. The same could, I guess, be said of the VME in the smaller form factors. In all my years of hardware scrounging, I've never seen any architecture more prolific than the ISA, and in that time I've seen maybe a half dozen Q-bus cards for cheap. Now, I'm not saying it has be cheap, but you would gather that as the primary requirement from what most folks seem so spout about in this forum, e.g. "What??! A dollar for a 1956 Rolls, in solid gold! Too much! I'll offer a nickel . . ." Dick -----Original Message----- From: Chuck McManis To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 11:49 PM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) >Well, in my case it was supposed to lead to the development of a really >open hardware platform. > >As for Allison's comment that SPARC is too "high end" I have to disagree. >The SPARC architecture was initally a lot less complicated than the PDP-11 >architecture. It is the funky MMUs that get in the way. > >--Chuck > >At 11:20 PM 7/2/99 -0400, you wrote: >>> Does anybody know where this is supposed to lead? >> >>Off topic? >> >>William Donzelli >>aw288@osfn.org > > From mikeford at netwiz.net Sat Jul 3 03:16:02 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: Mike Ford = email black hole? In-Reply-To: <199907030020.UAA04913@admin.cgocable.net> References: <001501bec344$b0c75b00$4a483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: >Every time I wanted to contact someone directly for example Mike >Ford, I does not get any replies back. I have no spam block. > >Just concerned and I mean to do business. Black hole? You've seen my garage? ;) Sometimes I am just busy, other times I just don't have an answer handy combined with busy. If I don't know something or can't do it, I typically respond right away saying so, but the "maybe" stuff falls into a think about it before responding heap. Things I must both weigh and think about send me into a spiral and can take some time. The nature of network communications brings on a false sense of the speed things happen. Somethings are very quick, other times a simple transaction drags on over months. From pechter at pechter.dyndns.org Sat Jul 3 07:17:28 1999 From: pechter at pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <000e01bec51f$80e67ec0$44483cd1@fuj03> from Richard Erlacher at "Jul 3, 1999 0:44:28 am" Message-ID: <199907031217.IAA33368@pechter.dyndns.org> > Well . . . what could possibly be more "open" than the ISA. It's capable of > pretty much anything that the PDP-11 could dish out, AND you can get paid > for taking the boards away from a lot of places. Almost any function you > care to have is available if you don't want to try to improve on what's > available, and the structural components are commonly available. The same > could, I guess, be said of the VME in the smaller form factors. In all my > years of hardware scrounging, I've never seen any architecture more prolific > than the ISA, and in that time I've seen maybe a half dozen Q-bus cards for > cheap. Now, I'm not saying it has be cheap, but you would gather that as > the primary requirement from what most folks seem so spout about in this > forum, e.g. "What??! A dollar for a 1956 Rolls, in solid gold! Too much! > I'll offer a nickel . . ." > > Dick The problem with ISA is lack of interrupt sharing on most boards. Perhaps if a passive backplane was used and the isa boards were modified to allow interrupt sharing. The limited number of IRQ's is a major drag. The cases and power supplies are cheap, though. I'd recommend going with VME or Multibus over ISA. Bill From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jul 3 08:45:19 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: Surplus Attractionm? wasRe: 33ASR Update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990703084519.23070afa@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:25 PM 7/2/99 -0700, John wrote: > According to the Laws of Surplus Attractionm can a PDP-8 be far >behind?? No, not until you get rid of all the accessories that you need for it THEN the PDP-8 will show up. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jul 3 08:52:18 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: Unisoft UNIX wanted. In-Reply-To: <377D6AEE.2A9AB1E1@magicnet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990703085218.3f2fef52@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Bob, I see you finally joined the list. Good luck finding the Unix. Talk to you later. Joe At 09:44 PM 7/2/99 -0400, Bob Reif wrote: >Hi, > >I'm looking for Unisoft UNIX for either a CompuPro 68K, or a Dual >Systems Corporation S-100 system. > >Thanks, > >Bob. > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jul 3 08:46:48 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: PC form factor Message-ID: <199907031346.AA07181@world.std.com> < Actually air flow is quite complicated. Using muffin type fans <> PDP-11 could be that architecture for several reasons: <> 1) It has lots of software available for it. < <> 2. The only way to make uniform air flow is with restriction. < <> > Hmm... Unix came out first on a PDP7, but later versions ran on the <> > PDP11. I am not sure where C came in all this, but there are certainly <> > PDP11 versions. <> <> > I've never heard of either fitting on a PDP8. While neither were developed on a pdp8 there is nothing to say it cant be done. The -8 does run fortran, basic, cobal, focal and I believe pascal as well. The reson it wasn't done (C or unix) is timing. the -8 was past it's peak and the PDP-11 had eclipsed it. Allison From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jul 3 10:15:42 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: Ed Roberts In-Reply-To: <006c01beb158$46b5a3a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990703101542.23178586@mailhost.intellistar.net> Dick, I found the article that tells about Ed Roberts. See "http://www.grocerybill.com/altair/index.html" Also the auction for the 8" floppies just closed. I got $30 for the box of 3M floppies and $17/box for the others. There were only two bidders but you can get their address at "http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=122887882". Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jul 3 10:32:34 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: Ed Roberts In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990703101542.23178586@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <006c01beb158$46b5a3a0$0100c0a8@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990703103234.2327c776@mailhost.intellistar.net> Oops, that was supposed to be a direct E-mail. Sorry about that. At 10:15 AM 7/3/99, you wrote: >Dick, > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Jul 3 09:40:46 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: Ed Roberts Message-ID: <000c01bec562$099b6b80$71483cd1@fuj03> Thanks for the info. As far as I've been able to find out, which is lillte more than speculation, I'm afraid, these "MITS Hard Disk Controller" boxes were just prepared for trade shows and demos and were never mass-produced. Since I can convert them into something useful without damaging them in any way, I'll go ahead and do that. It would appear there were fewer than half a dozen of these made, and they were never mmass-marketed. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 8:22 AM Subject: Ed Roberts >Dick, > > > I found the article that tells about Ed Roberts. See >"http://www.grocerybill.com/altair/index.html" > > Also the auction for the 8" floppies just closed. I got $30 for the box >of 3M floppies and $17/box for the others. There were only two bidders but >you can get their address at >"http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=122887882". > > Joe > > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jul 3 10:27:53 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:01 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby Message-ID: <199907031527.AA25600@world.std.com> > Please remember that this list is international. And that not all of us <> have well payed jobs, or even jobs at all. I couldn't consider spending <> twice my _annual_ income on an Altair. Heck, I have to stop and think <> before I spend my weekly income on common 8-bit micro. < I don't own any such speakers, or indeed, a soundcard. Never seen the nee > one... For laughs I took a pair of the so called 60W per speakers, opened them and put them on a 50w dummyload and measured them. They did 12W RMS at less than .1% distortion, at 13W they were already to 1% and at 14W 5%. The 60w number, power drawn from the wall outlet at full load! haveing spent years in audio and analoge if the claim is power the PSU better be BIG or its all smoke and mirrors. <> What I am asking for is _any_ kind of justification for the modern kind <> of watt... it's still the same here. A Watt or power will produce a certain amount of heat (RMS). However a non sinusoidal waveform will still drive a load to the same peak current and voltage but the power (heating ability) will be greatly lowered or increased. the hardest driving waveform is a symetric squarewave. the lowest would be a for example a 1% asymetric pulse. You may indeed be onto something here, Allison, but the ISA is no less general in its inherent qualities than the S-100, and I'd submit that a major case for the S-100's popularity for non-8080 applications was the ready commmmercial availability of numerous desirable functions at reasonable prices. That's how the ISA occurred to me. Aside from that, a general purpose not processor-biased architecture would provide a few control signals, e.g. IORD, IOWR, MEMRD, MEMWR, maybe a couple of clocks, probably one fairly fast one suitable as a dot clock for a video circuit, and one slower, suitable for bus transaction timing, a few interrupt and DMA support signals, and a couple of dozen address lines. Parity and maybe a "tilt" line would be handy, as well as a wait signal. Most busses have these signals in one form or another. The key element for generalized development, though, is whether or not you can afford to buy the functions you don't want to build right away. Don't you agree? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 9:35 AM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) >< > >To yet another iteration of the last 30 years of computer and bus design. > > >The ugly exception! This doesn't make it good, only the odd exception >for unexplainable reasons despite being primarily a 8080 bus! > >S100 8080, 8085, 808x, 80x86, z80, z180, LSI-11, AM100, TI9900, 6502, > 6800, 6809, 6800x > >How is it that one of the ugly busses stands out like this in history? >My cut is that the very flavor of an experimentors "hobby" bus was the >draw. > >Allison > From stan at netcom.com Sat Jul 3 10:54:31 1999 From: stan at netcom.com (Stan Perkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: Questions about an IOTech SCSI 488/D Bus Controller References: <001501bec344$b0c75b00$4a483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <377E3237.5D5A0E9F@netcom.com> Hi all, I just picked up one of these devices, and (of course) it had no documentation or drivers with it. I would like to set it up on my PC with an Adaptec SCSI board to act as a GPIB controller. Alternatively, I have an old Macintosh that I could use. Questions: 1) Is it possible to use this with a PC or a Mac, or is it only for Sun, NeXT, and/or other specialized workstations? 2) What sort of software do I need to use it? 3) Any pointers to software and documentation? The IOTech web site has nothing to offer. 4) Can it be used in reverse (i.e. can I hook it to a computer with a GPIB interface and use it to access SCSI devices)? Thanks in advance, Stan From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Jul 3 11:07:19 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: <199907031527.AA25600@world.std.com> Message-ID: I hope this doesn't become a huge socio-economic discussion, so I will try to keep it short. > The industries in many of the foreign countries are quite healthy but the > admission price (education REQUIRED) is far higher so it's not as easy to > get in. That also does not allow for retired, people that don't wish to > work in electrotechnical fields for a living and for some reason far to > many women. OK, so the next question: is getting an education (enough to give one a chance) that tough overseas? It is not hard at all here in the states - even a communuity college degree will work - I know quite a few that have gone that route. For this reason, not having an technical education in the U.S. doesn't hold much water with me - almost none, in fact. And if getting a similar type of education overseas is about the same - well, then that holds little water, too. Anyway, there are ways to make money to support a hobby that do not involve an education. One can easily make two thousand dollars every summer at hamfests, selling electronic castoffs - even junk. Fill a box with caps, switches, tubes, connectors, knobs, etc., and the homebrewers will come. Yes, they tend to be a cheap lot too, but it adds up. Anyway, by October, an Altair could be possible - or even a pile of other machines. Being a hamfest seller is a GREAT way to get leads, as well. Of course, I have never been to a radio rally, so things might be different for sellers. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Jul 3 11:10:46 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: Kalok Drives Message-ID: I have a pair of Kalok drives, a KL320 and a KL330 (20 and 30 Mbyte, perhaps?), each on a sort of "hard card" thing for a PeeCee. The interfaces are apparently made by Seagate. I do not know what is on them, or even if they work. Any interest out there? If not, I am going to scrap them out. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jul 3 11:23:33 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: Kalok Drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990703092333.0096aa50@mail.bluefeathertech.com> At 12:10 03-07-1999 -0400, you wrote: >I have a pair of Kalok drives, a KL320 and a KL330 (20 and 30 Mbyte, >perhaps?), each on a sort of "hard card" thing for a PeeCee. The >interfaces are apparently made by Seagate. Kalok?! AHHHHHHH!!!! Seriously, I've had awful experiences with the few Kalok drives I tried, and I've heard other horror stories as well. They are known to be one of the least reliable drives ever made, and Kalok themselves folded some time ago. >I do not know what is on them, or even if they work. Any interest out >there? If not, I am going to scrap them out. Use them for sledgehammer practice, then send them to the aluminum recycler. Can I watch? ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Jul 3 11:36:52 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. In-Reply-To: <199907031347.AA07495@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Jul 3, 1999 09:47:35 am" Message-ID: <199907031636.QAA04744@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > > While neither were developed on a pdp8 there is nothing to say it cant be > done. The -8 does run fortran, basic, cobal, focal and I believe pascal as > well. > Yes, there was a pdp8/e pascal compiler written at the U of Minnesota, Twin Cities, and distributed by DECUS. I have copies of the floppy disks and user manual from the department that wrote it. Now, if i only had a pdp8/e with floppy drives ;) -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From rwaltman at bellatlantic.net Sat Jul 3 11:40:54 1999 From: rwaltman at bellatlantic.net (Roberto Waltman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: Kalok Drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <377f3c81.57884974@core.iconnet.net> Hi, I have a couple of Kaypro computers (Z80, CP/M) that I want to convert to "Kaypro 10": 1 'huge' 10 Mb disk. I would like to try those Kalok drives. I am in New Jersey, (ZIP 07481) Where are you locates ? Regards, Roberto Waltman On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 12:10:46 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: >I have a pair of Kalok drives, a KL320 and a KL330 (20 and 30 Mbyte, >perhaps?), each on a sort of "hard card" thing for a PeeCee. The >interfaces are apparently made by Seagate. > >I do not know what is on them, or even if they work. Any interest out >there? If not, I am going to scrap them out. > >William Donzelli >aw288@osfn.org From at258 at osfn.org Sat Jul 3 11:38:45 1999 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, William Donzelli wrote: > Anyway, there are ways to make money to support a hobby that do not > involve an education. One can easily make two thousand dollars every > summer at hamfests, selling electronic castoffs - even junk. Fill a box > with caps, switches, tubes, connectors, knobs, etc., and the > homebrewers will come. I know if it weren't for my crack cocaine sales, I'd never be able to afford the Altairs on eBay.... M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 "Casta est qui nemo rogavit." - Ovid From edick at idcomm.com Sat Jul 3 11:39:06 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: Kalok Drives Message-ID: <008501bec572$91603ea0$71483cd1@fuj03> While it's true that not everyone liked KALOK, I'd not be influenced too much by the fact they're no longer with us. IMI, CMI, Miniscribe, Shugart, and many others are gone, too. Not everyone like their products either. You should probably determine whether these babies work before you ditch them. They don't have enough aluminum scrap value to justify destroying them before you know whether they work. If they do they are worth a few dollars to you and a week of headaches, aspirin, MAALOX, prune juice, and whiskey to the buyer. . . but it's YOUR money, and it's HIS headaches . . . get the picture? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Lane To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 10:29 AM Subject: Re: Kalok Drives >At 12:10 03-07-1999 -0400, you wrote: > >>I have a pair of Kalok drives, a KL320 and a KL330 (20 and 30 Mbyte, >>perhaps?), each on a sort of "hard card" thing for a PeeCee. The >>interfaces are apparently made by Seagate. > > Kalok?! AHHHHHHH!!!! > > Seriously, I've had awful experiences with the few Kalok drives I tried, >and I've heard other horror stories as well. They are known to be one of >the least reliable drives ever made, and Kalok themselves folded some time >ago. > >>I do not know what is on them, or even if they work. Any interest out >>there? If not, I am going to scrap them out. > > Use them for sledgehammer practice, then send them to the aluminum >recycler. Can I watch? ;-) > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies >http://www.bluefeathertech.com >Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) >"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own >human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From rwaltman at bellatlantic.net Sat Jul 3 11:52:17 1999 From: rwaltman at bellatlantic.net (Roberto Waltman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: Kalok Drives In-Reply-To: <377f3c81.57884974@core.iconnet.net> References: <377f3c81.57884974@core.iconnet.net> Message-ID: <37813f8c.58663573@core.iconnet.net> Sorry, clicked on the wrong button, this should not have gone to the list... > >I would like to try those Kalok drives. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jul 3 13:38:38 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: Ed Roberts In-Reply-To: <000c01bec562$099b6b80$71483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990703133838.23475ca6@mailhost.intellistar.net> Dick, It still sounds like they have a significant collector and historical value in their own right. Like it or not MITS was at the heart of the micro-computer revolution. It would be interesting to see what one of the boxs would bring on E-OverPay. Joe At 08:40 AM 7/3/99 -0600, you wrote: >Thanks for the info. As far as I've been able to find out, which is lillte >more than speculation, I'm afraid, these "MITS Hard Disk Controller" boxes >were just prepared for trade shows and demos and were never mass-produced. >Since I can convert them into something useful without damaging them in any >way, I'll go ahead and do that. It would appear there were fewer than half >a dozen of these made, and they were never mmass-marketed. > >Dick >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 8:22 AM >Subject: Ed Roberts > > >>Dick, >> >> >> I found the article that tells about Ed Roberts. See >>"http://www.grocerybill.com/altair/index.html" >> >> Also the auction for the 8" floppies just closed. I got $30 for the box >>of 3M floppies and $17/box for the others. There were only two bidders but >>you can get their address at >>"http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=122887882". >> >> Joe >> >> >> > > From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Jul 3 12:48:26 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: More Nostalgia type books FS (fwd) Message-ID: Heads Up Folks.... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:29:34 -0400 From: Ken Simpson To: BA Swap List Subject: More Nostalgia type books FS [snipped a dozen Ham Radio catalogs and course books.. old ones] Sinclair Cambridge Program Library - Volumes 1-4 General/Finance/Statistics Mathematics Physics & Engineering Electronics 1977 = $ 8 Prices do not include shipping from Florida. All books are in good condition. E-mail to W8EK@fdt.net Thanks. 73, Ken, W8EK From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Jul 3 12:57:32 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: Kalok Drives In-Reply-To: <008501bec572$91603ea0$71483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: > You should probably determine whether these babies work before you ditch > them. They don't have enough aluminum scrap value to justify destroying > them before you know whether they work. I have no easy way I can test them, as I ditched the PeeCee scene. Anyway, I will almost always ask someone, on or off the list, if they want something before I scrap it out. I am a firm believer in computer recycling, and if a piece is not super historically important (pre-1975, basically) and I can not get someone to take it off my hands, it gets parted out. Anyway, money from the scrapping goes into saving other things from the scrapper that are also important (like a warehouse I know of filled with WWII radar stuff who's time is running out). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Jul 3 09:25:22 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: Keyboard repair parts? In-Reply-To: <19990702181219.28799.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <199907031827.OAA03257@smtp.interlog.com> On 2 Jul 99 at 11:12, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > Of course with some systems canablization isn't the answer > > I've got this keyboard that well illustrates that point - the SX-64. I got > one cheap because the keyboard was fubared and a previous owner attempted > to repair it. Fortunately for me, I happened to have *just the keyboard* > and nothing else (equipment attraction, obviously ;-) > > For those that don't know the design, the SX-64 is a luggable C-64 with > integral color CRT and 1541 disk drive. The only thing missing is a cassette > port, making certain packet radio and other external hardware useless to it. > The keyboard detaches from the front/top of the unit, connects with a 24-pin > cable (DB-25 with a keying pin) and while it has real keys for the user to > type on, is a single-sheet membrane inside with all the circuit paths and > conductive areas. More than one SX-64 is sitting around out there because > its keyboard has failed. > > -ethan > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > I've got an apparently functioning Compaq portable, the sewing machine look-alikes, that I've been unable to explore because it is missing the cover/keyboard. It has a deep well socket that takes a standard 5-pin din but won't work with any of the K-Bs I've tried with it. Like the Plus it seems to be a proprietary interface. Anyone know of a k-b that will work besides the original ? ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jul 3 13:30:03 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: DAS1200 Message-ID: <199907031830.AA19305@world.std.com> Thanks to all who have responded so far.. I have tracked the trouble to code level 5.. I have the parity keyboard with split shifts and '5' is stuck marking all the time. I put myself to sleep last night reading the maintenance manual, after lunch I'm gonna dive into it. WooHoo! Cheerz John From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Jul 3 13:44:11 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <199907031528.AA25946@world.std.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990703112646.0098b8f0@mcmanis.com> At 11:28 AM 7/3/99 -0400, Allison J Parent wrote: >Error. Highend meaning it's not a simple or low complexity system. SPARC >may be RISC but that has little to do with system implmentation only the >instruction set and internal processor design. It's still 32bit, comples >set of control signals, high speed and nontrivial design. Sorry, I misspoke. The problem is as follows, the "free" OS movement is dying. Its not very apparent yet but as time passes it will become more so. The reason it is dying is because a syndicate is coalescing out of hardware vendors for the current high volume platform, the "wintel" platform. It has started with the 3D hardware. I happen to love 3D graphics and enjoy hacking on my little 3D engine, but I have to do that on Windows 95 (or NT) because the vendors of 3D boards don't release enough information for "free software" types to write drivers for their boards, and then they sue people who reverse engineer their boards. The freezes 3D hardware out of the "free OS" market. Intel has features in its latest 810 chipsets that require bi-directional NDAs to even know about, and if disclosure of the information covered by those NDAs is traced back to you then you are liable for huge civil penalties. Further, more forward thinking makers of "chipset" technology are being aggressively litigated by the Intel. You can't write software for an undocumented computer, and you can't get documentation unless you agree to not write free software, free software's days are limited. Now in the past, for example with the VAX architecture, one could always just pull out the board and buzz out the connetions, but not so in a VLSI circuit. If this trend is not reversed then the free OS movement will die and I will be saddened by it. Its not the end of the world, but an area we might be able to address at the moment. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Jul 3 13:52:29 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: More 33ASR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990703114857.00b87280@mcmanis.com> Hi John, One test you can do is to type to the punch and see if the punch actually punches the correct code. If it does, then the code bar in the typing unit is stuck, not the keyboard. If you can read a paper tape with the correct codes and they type correctly, then the keyboard is more likely to be the culprit. You can also measure the signals at the output of the keyboard without disassembling the whole unit. Taking apart the keyboard is a _major_ pain. --Chuck At 11:31 AM 7/3/99 -0700, you wrote: > > Thanks to all who have responded so far.. I have tracked the >trouble to code level 5.. I have the parity keyboard with split >shifts and '5' is stuck marking all the time. I put myself to sleep >last night reading the maintenance manual, after lunch I'm gonna >dive into it. > > WooHoo! > > >Cheerz > >John From edick at idcomm.com Sat Jul 3 13:45:59 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: Ed Roberts Message-ID: <003801bec584$4b4dd6e0$58483cd1@fuj03> The boxes I bought were sold to us by an agent for Pertec, which was liquidating the MITS stuff. The FDD and HDD used with Altairs were Pertec's, since they worked closely with the MITS boys. Unfortunately their FDD and HDD were a bit out of date. They probably saw the 8-bit market as a place to dispose of the stuff no longer suitable for mini's. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Ed Roberts > >< > >What about after the Pertec guys bought them, I thought the marketed a >MITS hard disk? though I think it was a 10mb 14" removable. > >Allison > > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jul 3 14:01:38 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <199907031901.AA03383@world.std.com> S100 was one of the first to see people using different cpus as they could still use their old boards (sometime with mods) or they could "bend" the cpu to fit the bus adaquately. check it out... another amazing price level http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=123282312 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sat Jul 3 14:48:15 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: MITS/Pertec Hard Disks (was Re: Ed Roberts) In-Reply-To: <199907031830.AA19593@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990703124815.03380fc4@agora.rdrop.com> At 02:30 PM 07/03/1999 -0400, you wrote: > >< > >What about after the Pertec guys bought them, I thought the marketed a >MITS hard disk? though I think it was a 10mb 14" removable. They did... There is a picture of one taken in an 'Altair Computer Center' on my web site on the 'Historical Items' page of the 'Virtual Museum'. Or for the impatient: http://www.computergarage.org/Garage/MitsBusSys.jpg -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Jul 3 15:06:02 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: RD53 questions... In-Reply-To: from "Brian D Chase" at Jul 3, 99 11:38:32 am Message-ID: <199907032006.NAA03680@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Brian: You may be a victim of the infamous "RD53 spindown problem". Does the drive spin up and then stop and/or recycle, or fail to reach full speed? If so you likely have a spindle break solenoid problem, which can be fixed with a small Phillips screwdriver. Please chack this and get back to me, I'll give more detailed instructions if indeed this is what's happening. > : | : : | | > > D S W W > 4 3 2 1 2 1 The RD53 I have here has the W1 and W2 in place, the next three pins are DS (drive select) ID settings, DS1, DS2, or DS3. I seem to recall that the drive has to be set as DS2 to be the primary drive on an RQDX3 controller. The one in front of me is set to DS1 however. I have three other RD53s in storage, I can check on Monday if necessary, but jumpering may not be the problem. You might contact Megan or Allison on the list. I forget what W1 and W2 are for, but my drive has them in place. Hope this help, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sat Jul 3 15:08:40 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: RD53 questions... In-Reply-To: <199907032006.NAA03680@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Jul 3, 99 01:06:02 pm Message-ID: <199907032008.NAA04015@fraser.sfu.ca> Argggh, my spelling! > If so you likely have a spindle break solenoid problem, which can be fixed ^^^^^ I meant "brake"! Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From mbg at world.std.com Sat Jul 3 15:13:18 1999 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: RD53 questions... Message-ID: <199907032013.AA11785@world.std.com> >The RD53 I have here has the W1 and W2 in place, the next three pins are >DS (drive select) ID settings, DS1, DS2, or DS3. I seem to recall that >the drive has to be set as DS2 to be the primary drive on an RQDX3 >controller. No. The floppies are DS1 and DS2. The hard drive should be DS3. If your system has a second drive, however, you may need to set this to be DS4. Depends on what else you have and how it is all wired. What system box? (BA23? BA123?) Direct connect to controller? (Leprechaun box?) Connection through signal card? (RQDXE? BA23 backplane?) More info is needed. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 3 12:13:02 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990702220137.26071be8@earthlink.net> from "Dave Dameron" at Jul 2, 99 10:01:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1239 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990703/5ce6d9bb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 3 12:43:23 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: 33ASR Update In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Jul 2, 99 09:25:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2253 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990703/ce7f2ec6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 3 12:45:39 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: 33ASR Update In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990702225014.00b9bea0@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jul 2, 99 10:51:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 378 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990703/547c39e8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 3 12:21:34 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jul 2, 99 10:21:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2106 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990703/b1a10fe6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 3 12:48:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <000e01bec51f$80e67ec0$44483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jul 3, 99 00:44:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 688 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990703/330c3225/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 3 12:51:35 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <199907031347.AA07232@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jul 3, 99 09:47:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 730 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990703/04083827/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 3 12:24:46 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <000601bec500$98c6f480$46483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jul 2, 99 09:03:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 657 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990703/36797f05/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jul 3 18:03:02 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: Compaq P III was Re: Keyboard repair parts? In-Reply-To: <199907031827.OAA03257@smtp.interlog.com> References: <19990702181219.28799.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990703180302.22cfd1c2@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 02:25 PM 7/3/99 +0000, Larry wrote: > >> _________________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> >I've got an apparently functioning Compaq portable, the sewing machine >look-alikes, that I've been unable to explore because it is missing the >cover/keyboard. It has a deep well socket that takes a standard 5-pin din >but won't work with any of the K-Bs I've tried with it. Like the Plus it >seems to be a proprietary interface. Anyone know of a k-b that will work >besides the original ? > Sounds like a Compaq Portable III. Did you try both an XT and an AT style keyboard? I think I used a non-Compaq keyboard on one in the past. There's a P III for sale on E-bay right now and I think the price was pretty cheap. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jul 3 18:06:27 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly In-Reply-To: <199907031931.PAA27001@chmls06.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990703180627.3faf5886@mailhost.intellistar.net> $610!!! I'll bet Intel wishes they still had some! Who was it that said "A fool and his money are soon parted." ? Joe At 03:31 PM 7/3/99 -0400, you wrote: >check it out... > >another amazing price level > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=123282312 > > From jpero at cgocable.net Sat Jul 3 13:16:19 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990703180627.3faf5886@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <199907031931.PAA27001@chmls06.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <199907032212.SAA14643@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 18:06:27 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Joe > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly Hi, > > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=123282312 Bogus! I knew Voyager doesn't use this '4004, I think cpu is 1801 or something like that made for space applications. Wizard From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 3 16:32:56 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: More 33ASR In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Jul 3, 99 11:31:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1038 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990703/6c63c54c/attachment.ksh From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Jul 3 17:22:15 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: E-Bay URLs rant Message-ID: To all you clever people out there who post E-Bay references with no accompanying text on just what it is you're sniggering about: Not everyone on this List reads It in the context of a web-browser. And speaking strictly for myself, while I am curious to know what it is generating the excitement, I am *not* curious enough to shut down the shell account, redial the PPP number and launch Netscape, go to E-Bay, turn down a jarfull of goddam cookies, see what ludicrous price some nitwit has paid for XXX that we all have a dozen of, then reverse the whole process and get back to the list again. Copying the said (or any) URL for me, means pencil and paper... not bloody likely as far as E-Bay is concerned. I do not like nor will I participate in E-bay, but that is my own opinion on the matter and I respect and honor differing views. Good old-fashioned Netiquette is the topic of this rant, however. Thanks John From max82 at surfree.com Sat Jul 3 16:25:28 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly In-Reply-To: <199907032212.SAA14643@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 jpero@cgocable.net wrote: >Bogus! I knew Voyager doesn't use this '4004, I think cpu is 1801 >or something like that made for space applications. So, where _did_ the story about the Voyager using a 4004 come from? I've seen it in a variety of places, and never questioned it. As it happens, I think that this is a fairly valuable item, though perhaps not worth $600. Although it's not the _first_ microprocessor (as we learned a year ago), it's definitely the first commercial one. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From edick at idcomm.com Sat Jul 3 17:22:11 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <001901bec5a2$9168f060$6f483cd1@fuj03> With the ISA, it depends on the TYPE of DMA you use. If you use one of the channels on the motherboard, there sould be no problem. It's only a bit shaky if you try to run it from the bus itself. That's because of motherboard features. Since there's to be no motherboard, i.e. only a passive ISA backplane, that shouldn't be a limitation. It's not necessary, in general, to have DMA, first because the processors used on PC motherboards have block transfer operations which operate at the bus bandwidth. The only things which would be inherited from the adoption of ISA as an open bus would be the connector and the signal definitions. I see nothing wrong with those. One could even punt the 14.318 MHz (4x color-burst) oscillator in favor of a more useful one, or perhaps none at all. The types of boards useful in development don't need a lot of documentation to be used outside the MSDOS/PC world. The base locations of the 8250's on I/O boards is know, the base of the printer port (twisted though it is) is known, and one doesn't need a video board right off the top. The WD1003-WAH board is well uderstood and the EIDE interface emulates that pretty well. That solves the mass storage problems. Serial I/O is straigtforward enough. Where's the problem? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 3:24 PM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) >> >> Well . . . what could possibly be more "open" than the ISA. It's capable of >> pretty much anything that the PDP-11 could dish out, AND you can get paid > >Well, apart from interupt sharing, multiple bus masters (the 16 bit ISA >allows for _one_ bus master card, but it doesn't really handle it >properly), certain DMA transfers, etc, etc, etc... > >> for taking the boards away from a lot of places. Almost any function you > >But most of these cards are _NOT_ 'open'. Try getting complete >programmings specs for certain video cards, let alone schematics, PAL >equations, etc. > >The whole idea of this is to make an open PC, _because_ existing cards >are not fully documented. > >-tony > From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Jul 3 17:32:26 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby In-Reply-To: <199907031901.AA03449@world.std.com> Message-ID: > My understanding is not any harder than here. breaking into the hardware > field is a bit harder than software and many here (USA) in the internet > services (web, java and all that rot) are likely self educated people with > non-technical degrees. Yes, and no. To get a job in a hardware field takes some looking, but once found, the chances of getting in are much better - the demand is great and the supply is low. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Jul 3 17:33:41 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: 33ASR Thanks Message-ID: Muchas Gracias to all who have offered advice and suggestions about the teletype. The Problem, alas, is that the print carriage has thrown one of the little nylon sliders that ride on the code rails as it travels... I have taken the unit down to major subassemblies but there is no sign of the slider. Damn. It is of course the slider on codebar 5. I narrowed this down by observing the punch, which is getting the correct codes. Why 'return' doesn't work is a further mystery, but it will have to wait until I can scrounge up a parts machine, or a working one in which case this one will become the parts donor. It is the parity machine with the forms feed unit and tractor feed sprockets, which is nice for computer use. Thanks again all... now to get to this 11/44 sysgen... Cheers John From ddameron at earthlink.net Sat Jul 3 14:07:31 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... In-Reply-To: <199907031528.AA26086@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990703140731.23d744a2@earthlink.net> At 11:28 AM 7/3/99 -0400, Allison wrote: > >no that would be 24/4 (two speakers presuming they are parallel) or 6A. >Assumes a 100% lossless bridge amp. at 24VPP and 6A you have 144W if it's >a symetirc squarewave, less if sine(RMS). > Sorry, I cannot tell if you switched from an engineer to a marketroid ;). In this bridge circuit with a 12 volt supply: +12 ------- A B .LOAD.. C D return----- (A, B, C, D) are switches, either A, D or B, C on, The 4 Ohm load sees a maximum current of 3 Amps in either direction. That is 1.5 Amps for each of two 8 Ohm speakers in parallel. The maximum (peak) power is 36 watts, 4x that of a non-bridged amplifier. "peak to peak power" is just a marketroid term. Actually I don't even use the term "RMS power", as IMHO, "RMS" applies to voltage or current, not power. -Dave From marvin at rain.org Sat Jul 3 18:05:51 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly References: <3.0.1.16.19990703180627.3faf5886@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <377E974F.EC110B20@rain.org> Joe wrote: > > $610!!! I'll bet Intel wishes they still had some! Who was it that said > "A fool and his money are soon parted." ? If prior patterns follow, we will be seeing more of the 4004 microprocessor chips showing up now. With any luck, the first one listed pulls in a higher than expected price, and the following ones will slowly reach reasonable again. Of course it could be like the Altair where the first ones sold for about $600 or so, and the price went up from there, and then settled in to the current $2000 - $3000 or so. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Jul 3 18:15:42 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:02 2005 Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly Message-ID: <000601bec5a9$f945d200$6d483cd1@fuj03> That's the price you pay, so to speak, for participating in a free-market economy. The market determines what price the market will bear. If there are more rich dummies (If that's how you prefer to think of them) than there are Altairs or 4004's then you'll probably never own one. Meanwhile, maybe I can get someone to slide me a few bucks for this old stuff of mine . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: Marvin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 5:11 PM Subject: Re: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly > > >Joe wrote: >> >> $610!!! I'll bet Intel wishes they still had some! Who was it that said >> "A fool and his money are soon parted." ? > >If prior patterns follow, we will be seeing more of the 4004 microprocessor >chips showing up now. With any luck, the first one listed pulls in a higher >than expected price, and the following ones will slowly reach reasonable >again. > >Of course it could be like the Altair where the first ones sold for about >$600 or so, and the price went up from there, and then settled in to the >current $2000 - $3000 or so. From fpp at concentric.net Sat Jul 3 18:24:36 1999 From: fpp at concentric.net (Paul Passmore) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly Message-ID: <002f01bec5ab$37ecd520$5bf9adce@paul> Now if I can only remember where that box of old processors are in the warehouse. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Jul 3 18:32:39 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: 33ASR Thanks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990703163113.00b398e0@mcmanis.com> I've got a typing unit that has donated parts to my ASR33 and none from the code bar area. If you have the Teletype manual with the exploded drawings tell me the page and part number and I'll pull them off my typing unit here and mail em to ya' --Chuck (Barring the Teletype manual, a _really_ good description could do in a pinch) At 03:33 PM 7/3/99 -0700, you wrote: > > > Muchas Gracias to all who have offered advice and suggestions >about the teletype. The Problem, alas, is that the print carriage >has thrown one of the little nylon sliders that ride on the code >rails as it travels... I have taken the unit down to major >subassemblies but there is no sign of the slider. Damn. It is of >course the slider on codebar 5. > > I narrowed this down by observing the punch, which is getting the >correct codes. Why 'return' doesn't work is a further mystery, but >it will have to wait until I can scrounge up a parts machine, or a >working one in which case this one will become the parts donor. It >is the parity machine with the forms feed unit and tractor feed >sprockets, which is nice for computer use. > > > Thanks again all... now to get to this 11/44 sysgen... > > > Cheers > >John > > > From max82 at surfree.com Sat Jul 3 18:36:38 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: OT: Minix Message-ID: Hi, I know that several people on this list have used minix. Can anyone tell me if the book is worth buying with respect to understanding the OS? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Jul 3 20:43:51 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly In-Reply-To: <000601bec5a9$f945d200$6d483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990703204351.3d7786e0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 05:15 PM 7/3/99 -0600, Dick wrote: >That's the price you pay, so to speak, for participating in a free-market >economy. The market determines what price the market will bear. If there >are more rich dummies (If that's how you prefer to think of them) than there >are Altairs or 4004's then you'll probably never own one. > >Meanwhile, maybe I can get someone to slide me a few bucks for this old >stuff of mine . . . Sure I'll slip you a few bucks. Got any 4004s around? :-) Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 3 19:19:51 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: 33ASR Thanks In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Jul 3, 99 03:33:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 679 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990704/10bc93d2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 3 19:13:22 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <001901bec5a2$9168f060$6f483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jul 3, 99 04:22:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3865 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990704/c3143945/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 3 19:47:52 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: OT: Minix In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Jul 3, 99 07:36:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 446 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990704/067fcc43/attachment.ksh From jpero at cgocable.net Sat Jul 3 16:35:15 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: Kalok Drives In-Reply-To: <37813f8c.58663573@core.iconnet.net> References: <377f3c81.57884974@core.iconnet.net> Message-ID: <199907040131.VAA29411@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 16:52:17 GMT > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: rwaltman@bellatlantic.net (Roberto Waltman) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Kalok Drives > Sorry, clicked on the wrong button, this should not have > gone to the list... > > > >I would like to try those Kalok drives. Aside from this, every time I find Kalok hds, they are already crashed or bad boards. Yuk. Keep cheapo hds cooled, they tend to last longer this way. Wizard From edick at idcomm.com Sat Jul 3 20:33:28 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly Message-ID: <001601bec5bd$3843a280$6e483cd1@fuj03> Nope . . . and I made a "high-tech tie-tack" out of my 8008. I just powered the box down, pulled the processor out, removed the 8008, bent the pins around so as not to damage a good silk bib, and super-glued the tack to the back of it. . . That box, an NBI word processor, used those hard sectored diskettes with the holes around the outside. EEEK! regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Joe To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 6:55 PM Subject: Re: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly >At 05:15 PM 7/3/99 -0600, Dick wrote: >>That's the price you pay, so to speak, for participating in a free-market >>economy. The market determines what price the market will bear. If there >>are more rich dummies (If that's how you prefer to think of them) than there >>are Altairs or 4004's then you'll probably never own one. >> >>Meanwhile, maybe I can get someone to slide me a few bucks for this old >>stuff of mine . . . > > Sure I'll slip you a few bucks. Got any 4004s around? :-) > > Joe > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Jul 3 20:59:25 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <001f01bec5c0$ea33ab40$6e483cd1@fuj03> Please see comments embedded below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 6:55 PM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) >> >> With the ISA, it depends on the TYPE of DMA you use. If you use one of the >> channels on the motherboard, there sould be no problem. It's only a bit >> shaky if you try to run it from the bus itself. That's because of > >Sure. But the Unibus/VME/etc way where the _peripheral card_ generates >the addresses for DMA (rather than there being a central DMA controller) >is a lot cleaner IMHO > Yes, it is, and with the PC motherboard gone, there's nothing to prevent one from using that method. > >> motherboard features. Since there's to be no motherboard, i.e. only a >> passive ISA backplane, that shouldn't be a limitation. It's not necessary, > >Eh? If you're going to have an ISA bus (meaning a bus where you can stick >standard PC expansion cards) you _have_ to have the DMA controller. Even >an FDC card really needs it. You can't start suddenly redefining odd >signals and call the result ISA. > Leaving off the motherboard doesn't change the BUS to something else. There have been systems with multiple processors on passive backplanes for the ISA for years. You don't have to change one signal. Of course, if you leave off the motherboard, i.e. the circuitry that makes it a PC, then you don't have to use the otherwise useless 4x-color-burst crystal oscillator either, and you don't have to generated that inane 18... Hz interrupt and can use something sensible instead, and you don't have to generate refresh addresses with one DMA channel, and you don't have to use DMA for the floppy which will work fine without it, and . . . > >Of course you can have a similar bus with mostly the same signals, but >with bus request/grant signals and an arbitration scheme like >Unibus/VME/etc. But most ISA cards would _not_ work on thse bus. > > >> in general, to have DMA, first because the processors used on PC >> motherboards have block transfer operations which operate at the bus >> bandwidth. > >Why do you assume that ISA -> Intel processor? It may be something >totally different, something that doesn't have efficient block transfer >instructions. > Now you're confusing me . . . you just got through saying that the PC has to be there, Intel and all, or it's not an ISA bus. Perhaps you spoke (sic) too soon? I made no such assertion! There are lots of processors which have block transfer instructions which operate at the bus bandwidth. Even the Z80 did that. >> >> The only things which would be inherited from the adoption of ISA as an open >> bus would be the connector and the signal definitions. I see nothing wrong >> with those. One could even punt the 14.318 MHz (4x color-burst) oscillator > >I see a _lot_ wrong with the ISA signal definitions. For one thing the >IRQs are edge triggered, active high, when any sane designer would make >them level triggered active low (had IBM done this it would have cost >them an extra couple of TTL chips on the PC motherboard. It would also >have allowed the sharing of interrupts). For another thing there's no >proper bus request/grant (multiple masters are almost essential IMHO). > You're certainly right about that! All that would have been needed is that they swallow their pride and use a sensible interrupt handler instead of their silly 8259. In fact, they should have left all their LSI's off the MB. The way their counters work, or don't, and the fact they're slow, and they're ripple counters so you have to read half of them twice . . . don't get me started . . . Of course if you're going to "fix" the mistakes, then maybe a few changes are warranted, including a provision for multiple masters. I find multiple masters on a single backplane of limited value. It's easy enough just to have a drawer for each processor and let them talk to one another on a high-speed LAN. Now that multi-Gb LANs are becoming more visible, no pun intended, those'll be the next great leap. Changing the way the signals work is not such a sin, since you still use the same bus definitions. A little improvement on the ISA could go a long way. > >> in favor of a more useful one, or perhaps none at all. > >That clock (which, BTW is not synchronised to anything else necessarily) >is the least of the problems. > well, if you use a color board, or a frame grabber which assumes NTSC timing, it may want that to be there. > >> >> The types of boards useful in development don't need a lot of documentation >> to be used outside the MSDOS/PC world. The base locations of the 8250's on > >As I understand it, the aim is to make a PC (meaning something that runs >a useful open OS like linux or *BSD) and which has 'modern' features like >a good video card. Not to make the equivalent on an S100 system > >> I/O boards is know, the base of the printer port (twisted though it is) is > >The base address of the printer port is no more twisted than that of the >serial ports. I've read the ROM source code, and the routines that set up >the address table are _very_ similar. > That was an error, i.e. i had an indefinite antecedent for the pronout "it" in that I meant that the way the parallel port works, with some of its signals inverted, etc, was twisted. An address is just an address. > >Basically, the ROM looks for printer ports at 0x3bc, 0x378, 0x278 in >order. It assigns each one it finds to the next available 'LPT number'. >What this means is : > >If you have a single parallel port at _any_ of those addresses, it will >be LPT1. > >If you have 3 ports they will be LPT1 (0x3bc), LPT2 (0x378), LPT3 (0x278). > >If you have 2 ports, the one at the 'first' address in the table will be >LPT1, the one at the later address will be LPT2. > >Serial ports are similar. It looks for 8250s at 0x3F8 amd 0x2F8. It >assigns the first one it finds to COM1, the second one to COM2. In other >words, if you have a single RS232 port at 0x2F8, it will be COM1. > >> known, and one doesn't need a video board right off the top. The WD1003-WAH >> board is well uderstood and the EIDE interface emulates that pretty well. > >Sure. Now where do you propose getting schematics for this I/O card, and >where are you going to get a data sheet on the ASIC that almost certainly >appears on it. This is supposed to be _open_ hardware. This implies full >schematics, not undocumented PCBs. > No ASIC, just the WD 1010 which is thoroughly characterized in the old databooks and datasheets. maybe a few other garden variety LSI's of the early '80's. I probably have it somewhere, but there was a time when I had the 1010 and 2010 pretty well memorized. The BMAC is an 8042 with some code and a peek at the application notes for the 1010 will tell you what's in the 1100. Since MFM is pretty much history, or, more correctly, the drives which used it, I'd say that's a non-issue. You don't need the schematic, though,since the board you'll be using will be an IDE interface with onboard FDC. Those (FDC's) are well characterized and all you need to know about the 1003-WAH is the command set, since IDE still uses it. The little IDE interface boards with 5 TTL's on them are easy enough to buzz out and understand. Data on the LSI's is easy enough to get, though you shouldn't need it if you read the data on the WD 1003 controller board. > >-tony > From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Jul 3 21:15:36 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: 33ASR Mech probs. Message-ID: Tony Duell and Chuck McMannis are thanked in large measure for thier help. Tony and I have the same manual... for the curious, the missing part in my 33 (and I have just spent another hour poking around; the part has been abducted by Vintage Computer Aliens.) is depicted in Bulletin 11848 33 [Page Printer Set (ASR, KSR, and RO)], in Section 574-122-800TC, Page 8, figure 7.. at the bottom of the page on the right... the part number is 180478 (Guide, Nylon) Chuck, if you want to send me one or two of these beasts, I'll send you copies of the official Teletype test paper tapes.... In the meantime, I guess I'll start the long disassembly process... the platen and forms control unit has to come off, then the carriage mechanism... what fun! Cheers John From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sat Jul 3 21:24:58 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: PDP 11/780 and 785 diagnostics Message-ID: <199907040224.CAA05482@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Back in 1992, I purchased a few 8" single sided diskettes from someone on the arpanet (or was it internet by then...). Anyways, these were a group of both used and unused diskettes. Roughly 50 of them are used, and they all are DEC software diskettes for the PDP 11/780 or 785. The vast majority are various kinds of diagnostics. Does someone here have a vax 11/785 and have a need for the stuff on these diskettes? -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 3 21:25:59 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <001f01bec5c0$ea33ab40$6e483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jul 3, 99 07:59:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5278 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990704/b0f7af1f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 3 21:33:21 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: 33ASR Mech probs. In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Jul 3, 99 07:15:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1052 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990704/8e646da0/attachment.ksh From jpl15 at netcom.com Sat Jul 3 21:49:26 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: 33ASR Mech probs. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > In the meantime, I guess I'll start the long disassembly > > process... the platen and forms control unit has to come off, then > > the carriage mechanism... what fun! > > It shouldn't be as bad as that. The easiest way to get the carriage out > is something like : > > Take the typing unit out of the machine. Hmmm... ok, I'll go look at that. The book said something about taking the platen out first, which would be trivial were it not for the VFU. This is what 4-day weekends are for. Cheers John From edick at idcomm.com Sat Jul 3 22:04:47 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <000c01bec5ca$0c8597e0$4d483cd1@fuj03> I don't think we disagree that much, but take a look at my comments embedded in your reply quoted below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 8:39 PM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) > >Well, IMHO there is _if you want to call the bus ISA_. > >There's no reason not to use this type of DMA on a homebrew system. >There's no reason not to use cards that have the same form factor and >same connectors and ISA cards. > I've seen little reason to use DMA at all when processors generally have the capacity to move data at the bus bandwidth with block transfer instructions. It's not a religious issue for me to call the bus whatever seems appropriate. ISA is the "standard" developed around the PC. The signals are, for the most part, the obvious ones for ANY microprocessor. The interrupts are the exception, in that they use the ancient and stupid intel method, namely positive-going and, as you said, edge sensitive interrupts, which preclude the more sensible approaches to interrupt management. > >But as soon as you start changing signals, you no longer have an ISA bus. >Some ISA cards will surely fail to work. That is _all_ I am saying. > Well, pehaps we don't want ISA bus. Perhaps we could benefit from the use of the cheap and commonly available parts, though. I never used interrupts or DMA in ten years on the S-100 bus. It was never necessary to do so. I don't see why you're so worried about interrupts on the few ISA boards one might actually want to use, e.g. serial I/O and disk adapters, along, maybe, with video boards. There aren't really any terribly interesting parallel I/O boards, and if you want to use IEEE488 stuff you'll play hell beating the WIndows software to help you do it. > >> Leaving off the motherboard doesn't change the BUS to something else. There >> have been systems with multiple processors on passive backplanes for the ISA >> for years. You don't have to change one signal. Of course, if you leave > >If you want to have active-low interrupts, DMA as I described it above, >etc then you do have to redefine some of the signals. Maybe not in name, >but certainly in what they do. > >Suppose you don't have a central DMA controller. What do you propose >doing with the DRQ/DACK signals? Sure you can make them effectively >bus request signals. But now the peripheral card has to know to generate >the address. And no standard ISA card would do that. > Just exactly which boards do you wish to use that do that? If they don't yet exist I'd say there are some liberties worth taking. > >> off the motherboard, i.e. the circuitry that makes it a PC, then you don't >> have to use the otherwise useless 4x-color-burst crystal oscillator either, > >I don't know what your problem is with that oscillator. It's trivial to >generate. That really is the least of the problems. > It's just a useless source of noise synchronized approximately with our TV electronics. >> and you don't have to generate that inane 18... Hz interrupt and can use >> something sensible instead, and you don't have to generate refresh addresses >> with one DMA channel, and you don't have to use DMA for the floppy which > >Actually, only PCs and XTs used a DMA channel for refresh. ATs and above >have a separate counter for this. > Yes, but refresh itself doesn't need an address at all, or at least hasn't since the 64k DRAMs came out with hidden refresh. > >> >> in general, to have DMA, first because the processors used on PC >> >> motherboards have block transfer operations which operate at the bus >> >> bandwidth. >> > >> >Why do you assume that ISA -> Intel processor? It may be something >> >totally different, something that doesn't have efficient block transfer >> >instructions. >> > >> Now you're confusing me . . . you just got through saying that the PC has to >> be there, Intel and all, or it's not an ISA bus. Perhaps you spoke (sic) > >You just said '...processors used on PC motherboards...'. Now most PC >motherboards have an Intel, or Intel-compatible processor on them. So I >think I was justified in thinking that you were implying an Intel >processor here. > >> too soon? I made no such assertion! There are lots of processors which >> have block transfer instructions which operate at the bus bandwidth. Even >> the Z80 did that. > >And IIRC the Z80 block moves were ridiculously slow... > Yes, perhaps it was ridiculously slow, but it was the bus bandwidth at the time. > >> >I see a _lot_ wrong with the ISA signal definitions. For one thing the >> >IRQs are edge triggered, active high, when any sane designer would make >> >them level triggered active low (had IBM done this it would have cost >> >them an extra couple of TTL chips on the PC motherboard. It would also >> >have allowed the sharing of interrupts). For another thing there's no >> >proper bus request/grant (multiple masters are almost essential IMHO). >> > >> You're certainly right about that! All that would have been needed is that >> they swallow their pride and use a sensible interrupt handler instead of >> their silly 8259. In fact, they should have left all their LSI's off the >> MB. The way their counters work, or don't, and the fact they're slow, and >> they're ripple counters so you have to read half of them twice . . . don't >> get me started . . . > > >Don't get me started either. I sat down with the PC (and later...) >techrefs, and I went through the schematics. Every so often I would >exclaim 'They did WHAT???'.... > >> which used it, I'd say that's a non-issue. You don't need the schematic, >> though,since the board you'll be using will be an IDE interface with onboard > >For the th time, the aim is to get 'open hardware'. That means (at >least to me) available schematics. Not schematics of things that _might_ >work the same (e.g. WD1003 .vs. IDE). It means scheamtics and >documentation for the hardware that's actually in the machine. > So, you want schematics of the disk drives as well, and the keyboard, and the floppy drive? . . . and when you have them, how are you going to stick your 'scope probe into that IC, and how are you going to fix it when it's broken. It's a custom IC, after all, and they will cost 10x what a new disk drive costs if you try to buy just one. If "OPEN" means to you that you have access and rights to all the intellectual property contained in your computer, you might as well give up right now. If what you want is enough information to program and use the devices you can buy, that's quite possible as we sit here. > >> FDC. Those (FDC's) are well characterized and all you need to know about >> the 1003-WAH is the command set, since IDE still uses it. >> >> The little IDE interface boards with 5 TTL's on them are easy enough to buzz >> out and understand. Data on the LSI's is easy enough to get, though you > >I've found it _very_ hard to get data on the typical ASICs that you find >on modern PC motherboards and I/O cards. In fact I've not managed to do >it in a lot of cases. > That's the reason, precisely, why you don't use them. > >I don't mean the 82xx chips that are on the original PC motherboards. I >have the data sheets on those. I mean the all-in-one chip on a multi-IO >card that does FDC, IDE, 2 serial ports, parallel port, etc. > There's no reason to use one, even if you could. The little 5-TTL circuit works fine and just as quickly, for disk I/O. Now, since you hate the PC MOBO so much, why would you want to use one of the PC-MOBO specific IC's? > >-tony > From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jul 3 23:07:04 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: RD53 questions... Message-ID: <199907040407.AA13473@world.std.com> Intel processor? It may be something known, and one doesn't need a video board right off the top. The WD1003- <> board is well uderstood and the EIDE interface emulates that pretty well < There's good reason to cast about for a general purpose bus on the order of the middle-period S-100. The PC's of tomorrow will have no expansion slots at all and will rely on USB, SCSI, and the various parallel port protocols to do "practical" I/O. That will be very limiting. I don't know what folks will do in cases where they have measurements, telememtry, process control tasks, or whatever to do. The PC has never been particularly well suited for such tasks, since there were such meager offerings in the way of general purpose I/O. The common microcontroller setups are pretty costly, often much more so than a Pentium based PC with thousands of times the computing power. By the time it was standardized, the S-100 was pretty well settled. Unfortunately, the amateur computer enthusiasts presented a bigger market than the measurement and control people, of whom I was one, and so it was pretty important to be able to build one's own interface circuits. For that, the S-100 was not as friendly as it could have been. Because of the legacy of 8080 signals and signal timing, even though the system usually had a sensible processor which could have worked very well, there tended to be glitches as caused by the fact that it took maybe three signals and a decoder to sense a local I/O cycle, yet the bus provided six or seven, and various board makers didn't use the same ones, nor did they use them in the same way. That's a mistake that should be avoided in the future. By contrast, the Multibus-I had signals somewhat similar to those on the ISA, and they were simple, easy to understand, and so on. Of course Intel led the charge on MB-I. See comments below, plz Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 10:14 PM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) > Intel processor? It may be something > >Like a z280? > You must really love that chip, Allison, but yes, even that, if you wish. It's YOUR computer, after all, so it should be the way YOU like it. > > >So the interrupts are upsidedown and stoopid, it's useful as is none the >less. The yabut is for small systems it's fine. > > >Consider possibility number 3, something that is hybrid, having the features >of S-100 like system but modern I/O and a different bus. > I personally would favor the 96-pin connector (per DIN 41612) as used in VME, but only one, for a basic card and make it on the nominally 4.5 x 6" form factor of the single slot EUROCARDS (e.g. VME). That connector is more reliable than card-edge connectors and it's used enough that it's relatively cheap. It's compatible with a 0.100" matrix so a card and a backplane could ( if you were REALLY desperate and impoverished ) be made by hand on a good wire-wrap card. Those are a few pretty compelling reasons. Of course unless you actually adopted the VME standard, you'd still be on your own and unable to buy a serial card or such. > ><> known, and one doesn't need a video board right off the top. The WD1003- ><> board is well uderstood and the EIDE interface emulates that pretty well >< > This is where I'd recommend caution if you use q-bus. The schematics must not only be available and complete, but they must be correct as well. PALs must be fully characterized, something I've never seen in a DEC product, and, in fact, I'd say you have MUCH less "open" information about q-bus than about ISA. The problem with ISA is that the information was usually "out there" well in advance and then, when the product was shipped, wasn't available any more, because there were too many competitors and the doc cost an extra few pennies. > In reality, building an I/O mux onto a current generation PC parallel port makes as much sense as anything. With EPP you can get up to 2MB of transfer bandwidth, in bursts, of course. That's not bad . . . AND you have a "real" computer with "real" tools that's very fast and "real" cheap. > >Treat the card as a functional black box. Herc, CGA and VGA video is well >enough known and the addresses are not secret. It's not a requirement to >knwo the tiny design details of the 8042 keyboard controller to get it to >give keycodes. Most of the floppies are the base 765 circuits pushed into >a chip, same for serial and IDE is not a secret. Based on what I've seen >of some of those cards the less I know the better! > >Allison > From ddameron at earthlink.net Sat Jul 3 20:17:39 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: The Computer Journal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990703201739.25570c68@earthlink.net> Hi All, Well it's been a year since I subscribed to "The Computer Journal" and have received no issues and have gotton no responses for my requests for a refund. Has anyone else asked for a refund? Received one? Their web page is at: www.psyber.com/~tcj The last issue is apparently #81, spring 1998. Thanks, -Dave From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Jul 4 00:38:44 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: The Computer Journal In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990703201739.25570c68@earthlink.net> References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990703223622.00b3d3f0@mcmanis.com> Sounds like a print publication that isn't exactly surviving (there was a year between issue #79 and #80 but the subscription gets you "1 year (6 issues)" :-) 82 has been in the works for a while apparently. Robotics people do this too, publish three issues and then die because they didn't figure out just how darn hard it is to actually publish something. Sigh. --Chuck At 08:17 PM 7/3/99 +0000, you wrote: >Hi All, >Well it's been a year since I subscribed to "The Computer Journal" and have >received no issues and have gotton no responses for my requests for a refund. >Has anyone else asked for a refund? Received one? >Their web page is at: >www.psyber.com/~tcj >The last issue is apparently #81, spring 1998. >Thanks, >-Dave > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Jul 4 01:33:44 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: BASIC for the PDP-8? Message-ID: <4.1.19990703233141.00a0b100@mcmanis.com> Does anyone have a tape image with BASIC on it for the PDP-8? On a related question, I've got a current loop adapter for my PC, this was my interface to the PDP-8 before the ASR-33 showed up. Now I'd like to punch some of my PDP-8 tape images, back into paper tape. What is the magic to start print supression so that I can print with this thing? --Chuck From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Sun Jul 4 02:36:58 1999 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly Message-ID: Yeah, the Voyager used three RCA 1802s (the CPU used in the Elf, SuperElf, COSMAC computers), because they used a SOS process (Semiconductor On Sapphire) which was extremely resistant to electromagnetics, radiation, etc. I think about that every time I see the silly original Star Trek: The Motion Picture (for those who haven't seen this masterpiece, the RCA 1802-powered Voyager runs into an alien civilization who accelerates it to about the level of HAL with a learning disorder, then gives it a big EMP gun and points it back towards Earth - gee, thanks) Kai -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin [mailto:max82@surfree.com] Sent: Saturday, July 03, 1999 2:25 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 jpero@cgocable.net wrote: >Bogus! I knew Voyager doesn't use this '4004, I think cpu is 1801 >or something like that made for space applications. So, where _did_ the story about the Voyager using a 4004 come from? I've seen it in a variety of places, and never questioned it. As it happens, I think that this is a fairly valuable item, though perhaps not worth $600. Although it's not the _first_ microprocessor (as we learned a year ago), it's definitely the first commercial one. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Sun Jul 4 07:06:25 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: Email Question In-Reply-To: <36CD9A8C.6683CFFD@mindspring.com> from "Phil Clayton" at Feb 19, 99 12:08:28 pm Message-ID: <199907041206.FAA26924@saul9.u.washington.edu> > I've noticed that when send email to Classiccmp my email address > shows up instead of my name. > However others users have their name instead of their email address. > Is this a setting on my end, or is it the way I am setup on this forum.? Hi, Phil, Wow... I know I've let some administrative messages pile up (because last quarter was the busiest one I've ever had) but yours is probaly the oldest. I'm really sorry about keeping you waiting. For each person who's subscribed to the list, the software keeps a personal name. That gets set when you subscribe. You might have done what many people do by mistake, and included your e-mail address when you subscribed: subscribe classiccmp musicman38@mindspring.com But that's actually wrong. The software reads your e-mail address from the header of the message (so in other words, the address you use to subscribe is the one where the messages will get sent). The place in the body of the message where your e-mail address is shown above is actually the place where your name is supposed to go. So your name ends up being your e-mail address. It's kind of annoying, actually. I don't think there's a command to change just your name. However, unsubscribing and resubscribing works just as well (and is easier to remember). i already did that for you, so your name should finally be changed after all this time. Again, sorry for keeping you waiting. Let me know if you have any other questions. I'm not swamped anymore, so I should be able to answer them quickly. -- Derek From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Jul 4 08:40:37 1999 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly In-Reply-To: <001601bec5bd$3843a280$6e483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19990704084037.3e2f540c@mailhost.intellistar.net> You should put the disk on E-OverPay if you still have it. I've never seen one like that, I'm sure it's a lot rarer than the 8008! All you need is a good write up full of hype! Joe At 07:33 PM 7/3/99 -0600, you wrote: >Nope . . . and I made a "high-tech tie-tack" out of my 8008. I just powered >the box down, pulled the processor out, removed the 8008, bent the pins >around so as not to damage a good silk bib, and super-glued the tack to the >back of it. . . That box, an NBI word processor, used those hard sectored >diskettes with the holes around the outside. EEEK! > >regards, > >Dick > >-----Original Message----- >From: Joe >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > >Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 6:55 PM >Subject: Re: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly > > >>At 05:15 PM 7/3/99 -0600, Dick wrote: >>>That's the price you pay, so to speak, for participating in a free-market >>>economy. The market determines what price the market will bear. If there >>>are more rich dummies (If that's how you prefer to think of them) than >there >>>are Altairs or 4004's then you'll probably never own one. >>> >>>Meanwhile, maybe I can get someone to slide me a few bucks for this old >>>stuff of mine . . . >> >> Sure I'll slip you a few bucks. Got any 4004s around? :-) >> >> Joe >> > > From max82 at surfree.com Sun Jul 4 10:09:01 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >I think about that every time I see the silly original Star Trek: The Motion >Picture (for those who haven't seen this masterpiece, the RCA 1802-powered >Voyager runs into an alien civilization who accelerates it to about the >level of HAL with a learning disorder, then gives it a big EMP gun and >points it back towards Earth - gee, thanks) Yes, I'm fascinated by the stupidity of that script. Supposedly, voyager was instructed to "learn all that is knowable, then report the information back to its creator". Had these people no idea what a computer was? --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From jason at sdi.cluephone.com Sun Jul 4 11:23:14 1999 From: jason at sdi.cluephone.com (Jason Duerstock) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: acquiring old hardware In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'd like to get my hands on an old Data General, preferably 32-bit so I can port Linux to it. Does anyone have any good inexpensive sources for such equipment? Thanks Jason From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jul 4 11:25:20 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <199907041625.AA19684@world.std.com> Like a z280? <> Message-ID: > I'd like to get my hands on an old Data General, preferably 32-bit so I > can port Linux to it. Does anyone have any good inexpensive sources for > such equipment? With Data General equipment, the best thing to do is just wait. Every few months a 32 bit Eclipse pops out of the woodwork, generally for the right price. As far as I know, there are no cheap sources of these machines with "stock" - they just are not that common. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From edick at idcomm.com Sun Jul 4 12:36:45 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <001301bec643$dc1191c0$6f483cd1@fuj03> take a look below, plz Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, July 04, 1999 10:31 AM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) > >If I had to rely on those I'd be cooked. > > >I think you need to hit the catalogs. GPIB and IO cards for process control >are quite common. I know I run a bank of ovens with a PC (AD and GP-io >card, DOS even) and a test fixture for resistive elements using GPIB and >Keithley instruments. From ddameron at earthlink.net Sun Jul 4 09:23:09 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: The Computer Journal In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990703223622.00b3d3f0@mcmanis.com> References: <3.0.6.16.19990703201739.25570c68@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990704092309.226f8142@earthlink.net> Hi Chuck and all, At 10:38 PM 7/3/99 -0700, you wrote: >Sounds like a print publication that isn't exactly surviving (there was a >year between issue #79 and #80 but the subscription gets you "1 year (6 >issues)" :-) >82 has been in the works for a while apparently. > >Robotics people do this too, publish three issues and then die because they >didn't figure out just how darn hard it is to actually publish something. Sigh. > >--Chuck > Yes it isn't easy, I tried a newsletter once.. Then they should at least send (pro-rated) refunds. Another magazine, Microcomputer Cornucopia did. If they don't, they appear no different than scam artists who, for example sell non-existent items on ebay. -Dave From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Jul 4 13:18:08 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: Kalok Drives In-Reply-To: References: <008501bec572$91603ea0$71483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <4.1.19990704141537.00b244f0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:57 PM 7/3/99 -0400, William Donzelli said something like: >> You should probably determine whether these babies work before you ditch >> them. They don't have enough aluminum scrap value to justify destroying >> them before you know whether they work. > >I have no easy way I can test them, as I ditched the PeeCee scene. > >Anyway, I will almost always ask someone, on or off the list, if they want >something before I scrap it out. I am a firm believer in computer >recycling, and if a piece is not super historically important (pre-1975, >basically) and I can not get someone to take it off my hands, it gets >parted out. Anyway, money from the scrapping goes into saving other things >from the scrapper that are also important (like a warehouse I know of >filled with WWII radar stuff who's time is running out). Yeah! Keep your eyes locked on that place Bill! Some of us mil surplus collectors will appreciate saving that gear for sure! Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association Check our redesigned website! URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jul 4 14:32:57 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <199907041932.AA19734@world.std.com> <> terminally similar) out there for copying. It takes nothing to make <>a 16-bit output and 16-bit input board using the vector foundation board. < from "John Lawson" at Jul 3, 99 07:49:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 719 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990704/940b9d13/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 4 13:08:30 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <199907040407.AA13997@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jul 4, 99 00:07:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 713 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990704/91ad7f36/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 4 12:41:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <000c01bec5ca$0c8597e0$4d483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jul 3, 99 09:04:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5194 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990704/5609e86c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 4 13:14:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: BASIC for the PDP-8? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990703233141.00a0b100@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Jul 3, 99 11:33:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 470 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990704/f368634e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 4 13:23:54 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <199907041625.AA19684@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jul 4, 99 12:25:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1259 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990704/6772df0b/attachment.ksh From sheehan at switchboardmail.com Sun Jul 4 15:04:05 1999 From: sheehan at switchboardmail.com (Bill Sheehan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: E-Bay URLs rant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, John Lawson wrote: > To all you clever people out there who post E-Bay references with > no accompanying text on just what it is you're sniggering about: ... John - While I agree that a line of accompanying text would time and keep those of us using other mail clients from feeling lie we're being left out of an inside joke, you should be able to reach eBay from your shell account. Believe it or not, Lynx works very nicely on eBay - I've used it a lot. Lynx supports most Unices and VMS. You can get more information at http://lynx.browser.org. -- Bill From rickb at pail.enginet.com Sun Jul 4 15:38:43 1999 From: rickb at pail.enginet.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: Old IC's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601bec65d$351b6ac0$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> May be kind of OT for this list, but I have an old machine that has a couple of what I believe are DTL IC's that I need to identify function and pinout for. I'm hoping that perhaps some of the folks on the list might have old Databooks or such that they've gathered for servicing old computers. They are: DT uL93559 Date Code=6918 Manufacturer: Fairchild (only logo is a stylized 'F') SN15836N Date Code=7020 Manufacturer: Texas Instruments Anyone out there that might have some late '60's/early '70's Fairchild and/or TI Databooks, could you see if these might be in there? Thanks in advance! Rick Bensene The Old Calculators Web Museum http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/7510 From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Jul 4 15:37:55 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: E-Bay URLs rant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Bill Sheehan wrote: > > > On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, John Lawson wrote: > > To all you clever people out there who post E-Bay references with > > no accompanying text on just what it is you're sniggering about: > ... > > John - > > While I agree that a line of accompanying text would time and keep those > of us using other mail clients from feeling lie we're being left out of an ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I ain't the only one..... > inside joke, you should be able to reach eBay from your shell account. > Believe it or not, Lynx works very nicely on eBay - I've used it a lot. [snip] A quite valid point.. I used Lynx long before Netscape was a company, and Mosaic was kind of unstable.. but I *still* maintain that a short description tagline would be nice, so *I* can decide whether or not to pursue the link, especially if it has a .jpg associated with it.... and I thought there was another List allied with this one for e-bay stuff and links... no?? Cheers and Happy 4th to all you 'Murrkans out there... John From donm at cts.com Sun Jul 4 16:05:50 1999 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:03 2005 Subject: The Computer Journal In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990704092309.226f8142@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Dave Dameron wrote: > Hi Chuck and all, > At 10:38 PM 7/3/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Sounds like a print publication that isn't exactly surviving (there was a > >year between issue #79 and #80 but the subscription gets you "1 year (6 > >issues)" :-) > >82 has been in the works for a while apparently. > > > >Robotics people do this too, publish three issues and then die because they > >didn't figure out just how darn hard it is to actually publish something. > Sigh. > > > >--Chuck > > > Yes it isn't easy, I tried a newsletter once.. > Then they should at least send (pro-rated) refunds. Another magazine, > Microcomputer Cornucopia did. If they don't, they appear no different than > scam artists who, for example sell non-existent items on ebay. > -Dave Not to those of us who have been subscribers over the years. There is NO intent to defraud! Merely a very limited ability (in time and money) to publish. - don From edick at idcomm.com Sun Jul 4 16:14:28 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <002101bec662$4646eae0$52483cd1@fuj03> I didn't say you need to call a bus a given thing. What I was suggesting is using and staying close to the ISA hardware because ISA hardware is so cheap. You can go to almost any thrift store and get a video board or a serial board, or a disk controller for $3. U.S. They throw them away by the 55-gal drumful. Once you've got the hardware, YOU decide how to make the interrupts work, and YOU decide how to use the DMA control lines. You can call if FRED for all I care. Have a look below for additional comments embedded in your reply. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, July 04, 1999 2:00 PM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) >> > >> >Well, IMHO there is _if you want to call the bus ISA_. >> > >> >There's no reason not to use this type of DMA on a homebrew system. >> >There's no reason not to use cards that have the same form factor and >> >same connectors and ISA cards. >> > >> I've seen little reason to use DMA at all when processors generally have the >> capacity to move data at the bus bandwidth with block transfer instructions. > >If the system is properly designed (adequate cache, etc) then the CPU can >run a program from the cache _while_ a DMA transfer is going on. That's >one advantage of DMA. Well, I don't know what you want to do, so I can't size a cache for you. Moreover, most DMA depends on external events to schedule its access to the bus. If the external event is concurrent with the time the processor is running from CACHE, it works out well, otherwise, it doesn't. I don't know why you'd want DMA in a typical system. The CPU is quick enough to accommplish the transfers as fast as they can go, and it just sits waiting, generally, when it's allowing DMA, since it can't use the bus. Floppies, for some stupid reason, use DMA in a PC, though it's not warranted, yet hard disks, yes, including CDROMs generally don't. There are some PCI controllers which use DMA, but we're talking ISA for now. >> It's not a religious issue for me to call the bus whatever seems > >Hmmm... One thing I _really_ object to is calling a bus (or whatever) a >standard name when it doesn't meet the standard. At one time Apple were >particularly bad about this - they had 'RS422 ports' that were nothing >like what they should have been, etc. > I agree that it's inappropriate to call an interface by a name unwarranted by its characteristics. > >As I said, design your own bus, sure. If I was doing it, I'd use those >DIN41612 connectors because you don't need to etch (and preferably >gold-plate) PCBs. But don't call it ISA. > If I were using the DIN connectors, I'd get a standard out, read and understand it, and then use it, calling it VME, its rightful name. Unfortunately, I'd not be able to get a two-port serial board or a LAN board for VME from the local thrift store. > >[As an aside, my MG1 workstation has the ISA adapter board in it. This is >a 32016-based workstation, and the ISA adapter goes to great trouble to >exactly emulate the ISA bus, even down to 'useless' things like a refresh >address appearing on the address lines, all the clocks, etc. The result >is that all ISA cards will work in this machine] > But to what end??? If you have a "decent" system already, why would you want to use ISA. For that matter, why the crusade to invent a new bus? > >> with video boards. There aren't really any terribly interesting parallel >> I/O boards, and if you want to use IEEE488 stuff you'll play hell beating >> the WIndows software to help you do it. > >Eh? Maybe the Windows software is OK if all you want are 'virtual >instruments' (but I really can't see the point of that - physical >controls are a lot easier) but for real automatic test/measurement >systems give me a decent GPIB driver, a good compiler and a real >operating system... > A friend of mine uses it at the Cape and on the west coast for launching rockets. I think it probably works O.K. I guess it's a matter of preference. > >> >Suppose you don't have a central DMA controller. What do you propose >> >doing with the DRQ/DACK signals? Sure you can make them effectively >> >bus request signals. But now the peripheral card has to know to generate >> >the address. And no standard ISA card would do that. >> > >> Just exactly which boards do you wish to use that do that? If they don't > >Err, any ISA card that uses DMA, like CD-ROM controllers, FDCs, >soundcards, tape controllers, etc, etc,etc. I know of no ISA I/O devices which require DMA. I know of only a few which CAN use DMA, and of those, only the high-end SCSI adapters e.g. ADAPTEC 154x series actually use it, albeit poorly. I have fairly fast equipment, in general, and find that programmed I/O performs as well as DMA in the cases I've tested, because the software I use does little else while the DMA is progressing. Now I've seen little FDC based tape controllers, the kind you use to interface one of those QIC toys to a PC which use DMA, but only because they're grafting themselves onto the FDC handler. They don't NEED DMA, they just inherited it. >You may say you don't want the above. Fine. Design your own bus. But >don't call it ISA, because it isn't.. > Remember, I just suggested making the choices compatible with ISA cards to save guys like yourself money. You're always complaining about the cost of computer hardware. > >> >> too soon? I made no such assertion! There are lots of processors which >> >> have block transfer instructions which operate at the bus bandwidth. >> Even >> >> the Z80 did that. >> > >> >And IIRC the Z80 block moves were ridiculously slow... >> > >> Yes, perhaps it was ridiculously slow, but it was the bus bandwidth at the >> time. > >Not so. A Z80 LDIR doesn't hit the bus bandwidth _at all_. Heck, it >fetches the instruction each time for one thing. IIRC at least one of the >Z80 block instructions is slower than doing it in hand-optimised machine >code. > Well, it was fast enough to transfer a whole track of data from an ST-506 in one revolution of the disk . . . that's 10416 byte-times, nominally, in 16.6 ms . . . > >> >> which used it, I'd say that's a non-issue. You don't need the schematic, >> >> though,since the board you'll be using will be an IDE interface with >> onboard >> > >> >For the th time, the aim is to get 'open hardware'. That means (at >> >least to me) available schematics. Not schematics of things that _might_ >> >work the same (e.g. WD1003 .vs. IDE). It means scheamtics and >> >documentation for the hardware that's actually in the machine. >> > >> So, you want schematics of the disk drives as well, and the keyboard, and >> the floppy drive? . . . and when you have them, how are you going to stick > >YES!! That's exactly what I want. > >> your 'scope probe into that IC, and how are you going to fix it when it's >> broken. It's a custom IC, after all, and they will cost 10x what a new disk > >Why do you insist on wanting custom ICs? You can do an awful lot with >standard chips, you know. Except buy them, since they don't make them anymore. >> drive costs if you try to buy just one. If "OPEN" means to you that you > >At the moment maybe. But in 20-30 years time it will be nice to be able >to fix the machine when new modules simply aren't available. Now that you >can't get new 5.25" drives, I'm darn glad I've got a pile of service >manuals for them. > First of all you CAN get new ones, and secondly, death is inevitable. Once they stop making the stuff you want to use, it's only a matter of time before something you can't fix will fail. > >> have access and rights to all the intellectual property contained in your >> computer, you might as well give up right now. If what you want is enough > >Why? OK, I am not going get the rights to copy standard chips, but I >don't see why the PCB schematics, etc can't be open. The reason is because YOU don't make the rules regarding other people's intellectual property. I agree it would be nice, but if a board costs $15 new, and $2 used, why would anyone worry about fixing them? You just buy a couple of identical spares while the opportunity is in front of you. Most commercial boards, nowadays, have custom firmware of some sort. There's no reason at all why anyone should give you that. I doubt you'll have a problem getting schematics for "standard" chips. It's the custom logic, e.g. FPGA's, CPLD's, PAL's, and PROM's that will be the problem. >As I have said many times before, I am using a '100% documented' PC. It's >not open, in that schematics, etc are copyright IBM etc, but I didn't sign >any NDAs to get them. The _only_ thing I don't have the schematics for is >the hard disk. I have them for the motherboard, PSU, keyboard, monitor, >floppy drives, CD-ROM, expansion cards, etc. > Yes, but as you said, you don't have the firmware listing for the keyboard interface. > >> >I've found it _very_ hard to get data on the typical ASICs that you find >> >on modern PC motherboards and I/O cards. In fact I've not managed to do >> >it in a lot of cases. >> > >> That's the reason, precisely, why you don't use them. > >You're the one who wants to use standard PC I/O cards. I don't... > Well, what would you use instead? Would that save money? Would it save time? > >-tony > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Jul 4 16:21:09 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <002801bec663$246037a0$52483cd1@fuj03> plz see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Sunday, July 04, 1999 2:01 PM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) >> >> > > >A lot of the time, DEC didn't copy-protect the PALs on their Unibus or >Q-bus cards. So it is possible to get the equations out of them. That, >combined with the schematic is enough. > >I have seen some DEC printests with logic equations in them. I've also >seen one (DRV11-W?) with the PALs drawn out as gates. > Oddly enough, the DRV11-WA was the one board for which I saw reasonable documentation, and it was what we used to interface to the E3-A (AWACS). I saw no PAL equations, and, in fact, the PALs were soldered in place, so if there were any, which I don't remember, you couldn't read them even if there were no security bit. > >> Sorry, no. DEC in the handbooks provide full data, timing, and sample >> schematics for qbus interfaces. Same for Omnibus Unibus. In that area > I guess I just had too little interest in DEC to notice that. Documentation was an issue, though, and as I once mentioned, even DEC couldn't tell if two of their machines were alike. > >Indeed. The PDP11 bus handbook is a very useful document. > >> interface (DMA capable) already there. ISA, I don't have any similar >> concise reference for bus timing other than a few simple published >> circuits. I've ahd to extrapolate from the XT and 8088 (and supporting >> chips) knowledge to get things like timing and protocal for at least the >> ISA 8bit. > >No, the IBM Techrefs do _NOT_ include timing diagrams, etc for the ISA >bus. Sure you can work them out from the 8088 data sheets, etc, but the >fact is, IBM did not fully document ISA. > There is a standard, however. IBM didn't create it. >-tony > From a2k at one.net Sun Jul 4 18:15:20 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: E-Bay URLs rant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > While I agree that a line of accompanying text would time and keep those > > of us using other mail clients from feeling lie we're being left out of an > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I ain't the only one..... I agree. I use PINE, and I've always used PINE. I used Nutscrap mail for about a week before I got mad at it and decided to go back to pine. Then I decided to install Linux on my own machine and before I had finished my quest to find the 'Ultimate WM' (or at least one I liked) used the console 99% of the time (KDE was bloat, Afterstep gets boring... and so on). 9 times out of 10 when I use gpm to copy a link and run lynx, it's referring to an image.. then I either have to write down the URL or copy it to a file, start X, load nutscrap... and then find out it wasn't worth it. Please have a short description. Thanks. Oh, and I use flwm now... (based on wm2) not totally perfect, but small and fast, plus I have the source and am working on my own version of it.. Kevin From red at bears.org Sun Jul 4 18:22:48 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: Data General Aviion documentation available Message-ID: I wound up somehow with some extra sets of documentation for Data General Aviion systems and DG/UX. Speak up and they're yours for 1.2x the cost of shipping. I estimate there to be about 30 pounds of docs here, but they can be sent Book Rate inside the US. They're physically located just north of Seattle if there's anybody interested locally. The titles: Guide to AViiON and DG/UX System Documentation Installing the DG/UX System Managing the DG/UX System Using the DG/UX System Using the DG/UX Editors Customizing the DG/UX System Using TCP/IP on the DG/UX System Managing TCP/IP on the DG/UX System Managing ONC/NFS and its Facilities on the DG/UX System Release notes for: DG/UX for AViiON Systems, Patch dgux_5.4.2.p58 DG/UX for AViiON Systems, Patch dgux_5.4.2.p77 GNU C Compiler System 5.4 for AViiON Systems Release 2.4.5.6 X.desktop System 5.4 for AViiON Computers Release 3.5 X11R5 DG/UX X Window System for AViiON Systems Release 5.4 Release 3.00 DG/UX System 5.4 for AViiON Computers Release 3.00 The rings in some of the binders are a little iffy. ok r. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 4 18:05:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <002101bec662$4646eae0$52483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jul 4, 99 03:14:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 8515 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990705/7616ff84/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 4 18:41:38 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <002801bec663$246037a0$52483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jul 4, 99 03:21:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1615 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990705/f19083b0/attachment.ksh From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Jul 4 20:15:03 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: 11/44 RSTS/E Sysgen Message-ID: I am preparing to sysgen my 11/44 system to expand the device drivers available... specifically to get RL02s installed, secondarily RK05s, PC01s, etc. I would like to know if anyone reading The List has ever done this particular operation, and if so, are there any pitfalls, booby traps, and/or gotchas that lurk waiting to sink (more) fangs in my tender derrier.... ? All day today I have been tracking down a problem with my Kenndy 9100 system... it fails when writing long files, and locks up with a 'device hung or writelocked' error message. At first I thought it didn't like the RL11 card in there, so I de-installed that, of course no change. I believe the 9100 itself is wanting a ramp-time adjustment... I can do it, have the tools/docs, but the labor is enormous and I would like to avoid it for now if possible. Does the sysgen process write to the tape? Or just read from it and write to the disk? The Kennedy reads fine, it's just recording that's flaky. This came about as I tried to make a master backup of the system to a fresh tape.. "BACKUP" seems to work, but "copy *.* ms0:" screws up at random places... except for once in a while when it completes with no errors. Any RSTS/E Sysgen advice? Happy 4th... Cheers John From edick at idcomm.com Sun Jul 4 20:03:38 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <000801bec682$377adec0$55483cd1@fuj03> > >> of their machines were alike. > >I think you ended up with somebody clueless in DEC. I've never had this >sort of problem with a DEC machine. > At the time in question, I had a client whose system required two 11/44's in lockstep. This meant that the two boxes had to be identical in every way, both hardware and software. DEC had a VERY difficult time delivering these pairs. They didn't have trouble charging significantly more for two identical machines than for just two machines, though. Instead of half a day per rack, they often took as long as five weeks to get the job done, several times swapping out each of the two boxes several times. Fortunately, they couldn't charge for that. You're right, of course, in that it implies that someone clueless was in the supply chain, but the impression I got was that clueless was the rule rather than the exception at DEC. Consequently, I did everything I could to specify other hardware in the twenty five years or so in which I could do that. Many times that meant a bill of 5K-bucks instead of 150K-bucks. Dick From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Jul 4 20:55:00 1999 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: 11/44 RSTS/E Sysgen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199907050156.SAA19399@smtp6.jps.net> > I would like to know if anyone reading The List has ever done this > particular operation, and if so, are there any pitfalls, booby traps, > and/or gotchas that lurk waiting to sink (more) fangs in my tender > derrier.... ? The process is actually easier than it looks. You can, if you wish, specify more devices than you actually have installed. That allows room for growth down the road. > Does the sysgen process write to the tape? Or just read from it > and write to the disk? The Kennedy reads fine, it's just recording > that's flaky. Strictly reads from it, and writes to the disk. In fact, you should -never- run a sysgen source tape write enabled (yank the write ring out of the back of the reel before you start). Enjoy! SysGenning on RSTS is actually one of the easier things I've experienced. From jpl15 at netcom.com Sun Jul 4 22:14:11 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: 11/44 RSTS/E Sysgen In-Reply-To: <199907050156.SAA19399@smtp6.jps.net> Message-ID: One last maybe dumb qestion: Assuming RSTS booted and running, me logged in as user 1,2, tape loaded and mounted... what do I do to initiate the process? $ ms0:sysgen ? $ ms0:start ? I looked all over for the "run"dialog box, but my screen is black and I can't find any of my icons and I hate this stupid screensaver or wallpaper or whatever it is, and where does the mouse go? There's just a bunch of flat wires going all over in the back.. I called my Internet technical support and I was only on hold for 40 minutes but the Amerika Off Line person couldn't help me and kept telling me to go to the chatroom of DEC but I can't find it although I paged my E-Buddies for more help..... Where does the CD-disk ROM go? Some of those AOL help-line people can get a little short-tempered, I guess it's cause they're true professionals and maybe not used to dealing with computers in racks with big tape-reader box things. I want a CRAY XMP-1 next, someone on ICQ said they were maximum K3WL!!! and only Elite WarezD00Dz had them. Me too! Please add me to your list! Cheers CmpguyLuzer1166RuLeRofZARGISH From allisonp at world.std.com Sun Jul 4 22:28:37 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: E-Bay URLs rant Message-ID: <199907050328.AA21032@world.std.com> References: <3.0.6.16.19990704092309.226f8142@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990704195348.238fdc00@earthlink.net> Hi Don and all, At 02:05 PM 7/4/99 -0700, you wrote: >On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Dave Dameron wrote: >> Yes it isn't easy, I tried a newsletter once.. >> Then they should at least send (pro-rated) refunds. Another magazine, >> Microcomputer Cornucopia did. If they don't, they appear no different than >> scam artists who, for example sell non-existent items on ebay. >> -Dave > >Not to those of us who have been subscribers over the years. There is NO >intent to defraud! Merely a very limited ability (in time and money) to >publish. > I'm sure some of the back issues are very informative. I am concerned with the last year. Regardless of their intent, my gripe is no issues _and_ no response to my requests for a refund. -Dave From ddameron at earthlink.net Sun Jul 4 19:57:23 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: Old IC's In-Reply-To: <000601bec65d$351b6ac0$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990704195723.229f2f3c@earthlink.net> At 01:38 PM 7/4/99 -0700, you wrote: >May be kind of OT for this list, but I have an old machine that >has a couple of what I believe are DTL IC's that I need >to identify function and pinout for. I'm hoping that perhaps some >of the folks on the list might have old Databooks or such that they've >gathered for servicing old computers. > >They are: > >DT uL93559 Date Code=6918 Manufacturer: Fairchild (only logo is a >stylized 'F') A 935 is a DTL hex inverter with the same pinout as a 7404. I am not sure if it is the same as your part, as I don't understand Fairchild's labelling conventions (the last 59 in this case). -Dave From max82 at surfree.com Mon Jul 5 05:50:03 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <001301bec643$dc1191c0$6f483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >>From what I understand, those will all be irrelevant by year's end, as the >evolving standard for PC2000 will have NO expansion slots at all. There are >already plenty with no ISA slots. My GPIB hardware is NI, and I had to >build my own parallel I/O hardware. Well, it's always possible to make an external USB->GPIB adapter. Of course, you'd be forced to use an OS which supports USB, and that eliminates DOS and various other small operating systems (which might be preferrable in many situations). --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From max82 at surfree.com Mon Jul 5 05:52:44 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >Actually, if you want to do anything beyond plain VGA then you do start >to have problems. This is what started this discussion - the fact that >many modern video cards are _not_ properly documented. What worries me even more is that there is no universal SVGA standard, as there is with VGA. S3 requires a different driver than Trident 9400, while the results are indistinguishable for me. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From max82 at surfree.com Mon Jul 5 06:01:22 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <002101bec662$4646eae0$52483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >If I were using the DIN connectors, I'd get a standard out, read and >understand it, and then use it, calling it VME, its rightful name. >Unfortunately, I'd not be able to get a two-port serial board or a LAN board >for VME from the local thrift store. I don't get it...are you saying that the connector somehow determines the bus? An bus could in theory be compatible with ISA and use some other connector, and still be ISA for the most part. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Mon Jul 5 08:37:04 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <990705093704.2a200330@trailing-edge.com> >On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >>If I were using the DIN connectors, I'd get a standard out, read and >>understand it, and then use it, calling it VME, its rightful name. >>Unfortunately, I'd not be able to get a two-port serial board or a LAN board >>for VME from the local thrift store. >I don't get it...are you saying that the connector somehow determines the >bus? An bus could in theory be compatible with ISA and use some other >connector, and still be ISA for the most part. I suspect that it's just Dick on one of his rants these days. VME boards are extremely plentiful these days, as are prototyping boards with the connectors. Of course, there are cases where the same connector was used on two different busses. The connector and card size of the Motorola EXORcisor system is remarkably similar to the S-100 bus (to the point where I've actually mistaken one for the other until I got up close and looked.) And the 44-conductor-edge-connector design has been used in so many instruments and machines that it is completely "generic". There are *many* ISA-compatible busses in use in the embedded systems world that use "different" connectors. Some of these are proprietary, meaning they're only used by one company, others are much more widespread (like the PC/104 bus). OK, there are some drive differenences between PC/104 and ISA, but that's an "improvement" for the application. See http://www.pc104.com/ for a PC/104 FAQ. PC/104 was originated by Ampro, a maker of classic computers, so I feel justified in mentioning it here :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jritorto at nut.net Mon Jul 5 05:40:00 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: PDP 11/780 and 785 diagnostics In-Reply-To: <199907040224.CAA05482@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: I'd like the xxdp diskettes if they're rx-50. I understand the license is implied in simply owning original media. jake On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Back in 1992, I purchased a few 8" single sided diskettes from someone on > the arpanet (or was it internet by then...). Anyways, these were a group of > both used and unused diskettes. > > Roughly 50 of them are used, and they all are DEC software diskettes for > the PDP 11/780 or 785. The vast majority are various kinds of diagnostics. > > Does someone here have a vax 11/785 and have a need for the stuff on these > diskettes? > > -Lawrence LeMay > lemay@cs.umn.edu > > From jritorto at nut.net Mon Jul 5 05:45:02 1999 From: jritorto at nut.net (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: PDP 11/780 and 785 diagnostics In-Reply-To: <199907040224.CAA05482@thorin.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: Ugh, 8" disks. vax 780. Sorry about the rx-50 comment. retracted. From a2k at one.net Mon Jul 5 11:17:33 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well, it's always possible to make an external USB->GPIB adapter. Of > course, you'd be forced to use an OS which supports USB, and that > eliminates DOS and various other small operating systems (which might be > preferrable in many situations). Erm, Linux kind-of supports it (alpha? or is it beta now?) > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) Kevin From edick at idcomm.com Mon Jul 5 11:12:29 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <002101bec701$2eee0c80$79483cd1@fuj03> I've written small code snippets which seem to suggest that software from DOS can easily drive the ECP/EPP ports. I'd assume the same is true of USB, though one would have to create or acquire it somehow. That would make it quite task-specific. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, July 05, 1999 5:57 AM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) >On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >>>From what I understand, those will all be irrelevant by year's end, as the >>evolving standard for PC2000 will have NO expansion slots at all. There are >>already plenty with no ISA slots. My GPIB hardware is NI, and I had to >>build my own parallel I/O hardware. > >Well, it's always possible to make an external USB->GPIB adapter. Of >course, you'd be forced to use an OS which supports USB, and that >eliminates DOS and various other small operating systems (which might be >preferrable in many situations). > >--Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Jul 5 11:14:46 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <002601bec701$80273360$79483cd1@fuj03> The old OrCAD electronics drafting software came with a tool which pretty automatically generated an 800x600 driver for most any available card of the day. This suggests that a "generic" driver may be available. My experience with the 1Kx768 types has been less encouraging, however. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, July 05, 1999 6:00 AM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) >On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Tony Duell wrote: >>Actually, if you want to do anything beyond plain VGA then you do start >>to have problems. This is what started this discussion - the fact that >>many modern video cards are _not_ properly documented. > >What worries me even more is that there is no universal SVGA standard, as >there is with VGA. S3 requires a different driver than Trident 9400, while >the results are indistinguishable for me. > >--Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Jul 5 11:18:55 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <002b01bec702$14ae93c0$79483cd1@fuj03> No. Your point is well taken, though. What I'm advocating in this case is the adoption of VME, which has shown itself to be as good as any more or less standard bus and better than most. The connector hardware doesn't define the bus, but it restricts it to the ones which used that connector. You then have to adopt a signal set which complies with that standard in both its definition and its usage if you want to consider yourself using that BUS. However, it's conceivable one might use a "modified" XXX bus, with changes implemented in a way which doesn't conflict with the use of certain cards already in existence. This is not easy, nor is it easly understood, particularly in its motivation, since you have the option of doing whatever you want. It is YOUR computer, after all. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Max Eskin To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, July 05, 1999 6:08 AM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) >On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >>If I were using the DIN connectors, I'd get a standard out, read and >>understand it, and then use it, calling it VME, its rightful name. >>Unfortunately, I'd not be able to get a two-port serial board or a LAN board >>for VME from the local thrift store. > >I don't get it...are you saying that the connector somehow determines the >bus? Any bus could in theory be compatible with ISA and use some other >connector, and still be ISA for the most part. > >--Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Jul 5 11:23:28 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <003001bec702$b731aa60$79483cd1@fuj03> It's true there are lots of VME boards around. There just aren't many cheap ones. The connector doesn't define the bus standard being used. TI used a 100-pin edge connector for some of thir 99xx development systems. Multibus-II and VME look pretty similar. NuBUS, as Tony pointed out, certainly used the DIN connector and used a form factor not too different from the ISA. As I said before, you could use a modified version of whatever bus you almost like, then call it whatever you like, but not what it specifically isn't. Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, July 05, 1999 7:43 AM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) >>On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >>>If I were using the DIN connectors, I'd get a standard out, read and >>>understand it, and then use it, calling it VME, its rightful name. >>>Unfortunately, I'd not be able to get a two-port serial board or a LAN board >>>for VME from the local thrift store. > >>I don't get it...are you saying that the connector somehow determines the >>bus? An bus could in theory be compatible with ISA and use some other >>connector, and still be ISA for the most part. > >I suspect that it's just Dick on one of his rants these days. VME >boards are extremely plentiful these days, as are prototyping boards >with the connectors. > >Of course, there are cases where the same connector was used on two >different busses. The connector and card size of the Motorola EXORcisor >system is remarkably similar to the S-100 bus (to the point where I've >actually mistaken one for the other until I got up close and looked.) >And the 44-conductor-edge-connector design has been used in so many >instruments and machines that it is completely "generic". > >There are *many* ISA-compatible busses in use in the embedded systems >world that use "different" connectors. Some of these are proprietary, >meaning they're only used by one company, others are much more widespread >(like the PC/104 bus). OK, there are some drive differenences between >PC/104 and ISA, but that's an "improvement" for the application. See >http://www.pc104.com/ for a PC/104 FAQ. PC/104 was originated by Ampro, >a maker of classic computers, so I feel justified in mentioning it here :-). > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From mikeford at netwiz.net Mon Jul 5 10:32:15 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... In-Reply-To: <199907031528.AA25813@world.std.com> Message-ID: >< ><> I don't own any such speakers, or indeed, a soundcard. Never seen the nee > > one... > >For laughs I took a pair of the so called 60W per speakers, opened them >and put them on a 50w dummyload and measured them. They did 12W RMS at Fry me in butter if I'm wrong, but I think the FTC (Federal Trade Commission, the agency in the USA that enforces truth in advertising etc.) is pretty sick of these 500 watt wall wart powered speakers and plans to apply the same requirements on powered speakers as they do now for amplifiers. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 5 11:51:24 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <003001bec702$b731aa60$79483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: > It's true there are lots of VME boards around. There just aren't many > cheap ones. Actually, VME boards are plentiful and cheap. I routinely see tham at hamfests for a dollar or two a piece. They can also be taken out of older Suns (the -3s and early -4s), as many of those machines are hitting the junkyards now. They tend to have non-Sun interface boards (SCSI, tape, etc..) hidden "inside" 9U to 6U board convertors. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From edick at idcomm.com Mon Jul 5 12:38:52 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <004b01bec70d$8389c8e0$79483cd1@fuj03> IIRC, there are enough signals just on the single 96-pin connector which comes on the single-sized VME (3U?) boards. It's those to which I was referring when I advocated adopting the VME for generalized development. I've never seen a 2nd-hand VME board for sale anywhere. The 2nd hand boards (wirewrap types) I looked at once, were actually MB-II format, and, at junk dealer prices were at $200 each. Here in the Denver area they don't appear to be as available. I see SUN stuff on the junk piles from time to time, but nobody seems to want that stuff. I surely don't need another line of outdated computers. Now, I don't go to HAMfests, or HAM anything elses, and I'm not into dumpster diving. That might turn up something. Though I once sold VME wirewrap cards, I've never owned a VME-based system aside from some SUN hardware I had about 15 years ago, which might have had some inside. That stuff was for ultimate sale to a client, so I left my fingers off it. Dick -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, July 05, 1999 10:58 AM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) >> It's true there are lots of VME boards around. There just aren't many >> cheap ones. > >Actually, VME boards are plentiful and cheap. I routinely see tham at >hamfests for a dollar or two a piece. They can also be taken out of older >Suns (the -3s and early -4s), as many of those machines are hitting the >junkyards now. They tend to have non-Sun interface boards (SCSI, tape, >etc..) hidden "inside" 9U to 6U board convertors. > >William Donzelli >aw288@osfn.org From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Jul 5 14:14:31 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Sysgen Successful Message-ID: Thanks to everyone who provided help of all kinds. I finished up the sysgen in just under two hours.. praying all the way that my semi-flaky Kennedy drive would behave during the process, which it did, bless it's little blower motor. :) I added support for RL02s, RK05s, RX02, PC05, and expanded some of the runtime language packages to include math and FPP functions. Everything else got the defaults. SO: the object of this sysgen was primarily to allow the use of the RL02 disks. And here I have a stuckness: I can sucessfully init an RL02 disk, erase it, exercise it, find it's bad blocks, and then mount it. All ok. But I can't allocate it, write a file to it, or get a directory. The error message is 'Device not available.' I can do 'show dev' and see that it is mounted, but from there I cannot find out what the next step is. I have a RSTS Orange Wall on the way in, but it will be almost two weeks before I get it. Until then.. what need I do to read and write the RL02s? NOTE>>> Especial thanks to Tim Shoppa and Bruce Lane! << References: from "Fred Cisin" at Jul 1, 99 08:53:54 pm Message-ID: <199907051920.PAA18195@smtp.interlog.com> On 2 Jul 99 at 22:59, Tony Duell wrote: > > > 3. What kind of monitor (graphics array) is an IBM 5153. I would guess > > > EGA, but don't know. > > > > CGA. If the computer has a CGA video board, then it'll be fine. > > But if you plug it into an MDA board, you can damage it. > > The MDA monitor is the really 'fragile' one. As it has no horizontal > oscillator, the Hsync pin directly drives the HOT. And if you drive it > off-frequency, it will fail. > > I thought the CGA monitor was a lot harder to damage. If you plug it into > an MDA card, it won't work, but I didn't think it did damage. > > -tony > Most of the Hercules and Simca docs had a warning about using them when connected to a CGA card. I can't remember now the specifics. You said in an earlier post something to the effect that the 5150 Bios supports VGA. Obviously it requires a VGA card (8 bit ?) but I thought only the XT would support VGA. I have a highly modified 5150 with an Intel Inboard 386 card that I had become resigned to not having VGA abilities. I've acquired an 8bit VGA card that I was going to use on my XT(5160) since I had been told the PC wouldn't work with it. Could you elaborate. Since VGA at that point of time was only an idea not yet close to implementation.Was it a backward compatibility thing built into VGA? I'm really into the idea of blowing the socks off the bleeding-edge Dozers with this machine, I have a pristine model for collection purposes.(boring) ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Jul 5 10:19:01 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: 1975 Dollars (was RE: State of the Hobby) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990702205512.00b25aa0@206.231.8.2> References: Message-ID: <199907051920.PAA18209@smtp.interlog.com> On 2 Jul 99 at 21:01, Christian Fandt wrote: > Upon the date 11:10 AM 7/1/99 -0700, Kai Kaltenbach said something like: > >I grabbed the Consumer Price Index history off the web, pasted into Excel, > >and applied the percentage changes cumulative from 1975. > > > >One 1998 dollar = $2.95 in 1975 dollars (ouch, those Carter administration > >years! Thank goodness for Greenspan) > > > >Therefore, an assembled Altair 8800 with 4x2K static RAM, serial, parallel, > >cassette, and bus expansion, $1880 in 1975 dollars, would be the equivalent > >of $5546 today. > > > >An Apple Lisa base configuration ($9995 in 1983 dollars) would be $16,169 > >today. > > > >Kai > > > >At 11:02 AM 7/1/99 -0600, you wrote: > >> > >>In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at > >>$565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was > >>in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. > > > >I suppose there must be a web site, somewhere, that would let you enter > >a date and a US dollar amount, and would show you the equivalent value > >in today's dollars, accounting for actual inflation, etc. in the > >intervening years. > > Actually there is something that should give some sort of results you are > looking for. Here's a useful site I found quite awhile ago that is on the > Johnson Space Center server: > > http://krakatoa.jsc.nasa.gov/bu2/inflate.html and look at the "GDP > Deflator Inflation Calculator" link. > > I suppose it's a valuable tool to forecast project expenses into the future > as project development can last for many years in NASA. > > Regards, Chris > -- -- Unfortunately, as you are likely aware of Chris, these price comparisons and dollar values don't really capture the market realities of the time. Not like when you were there. The going wage levels, at times inflated prices for some commodities, and rent,food prices, expectations, and cultural demands also played a role. Each era has it's "norm" demands and when I reflect back to the 40's and 50's our expectations and demands from that time make the present ones those that only the wealthy of that era could afford. Hollywood generally makes as bad a representation when they do their period pieces. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Jul 5 10:19:02 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 XT In-Reply-To: <01bec501$42bbddc0$598ea6d1@the-general> Message-ID: <199907051920.PAA18227@smtp.interlog.com> On 2 Jul 99 at 20:08, Jason (the General) wrote: > >I thought the CGA monitor was a lot harder to damage. If you plug it into > >an MDA card, it won't work, but I didn't think it did damage. > > > It doesn't. I plugged on into an MDA/Hercules card my mistake (thought it > was a CGA). All that came up was horizontal fuzz. Put in a CGA card, and > it worked fine. Your best bet is to plug it in and try it. If it works, go > with it. > > ///--->>> > -Jason Willgruber > (roblwill@usaor.net) > ICQ#: 1730318 > > Think you're wrong, but can't remember the instances. It was related to when you had both the color and Hercules card installed and tried to access the EMU while plugged in to the CGA. Something about the horizontal resolution. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Jul 5 10:19:02 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: Kalok Drives In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990703092333.0096aa50@mail.bluefeathertech.com> References: Message-ID: <199907051920.PAA18242@smtp.interlog.com> On 3 Jul 99 at 9:23, Bruce Lane wrote: > At 12:10 03-07-1999 -0400, you wrote: > > >I have a pair of Kalok drives, a KL320 and a KL330 (20 and 30 Mbyte, > >perhaps?), each on a sort of "hard card" thing for a PeeCee. The > >interfaces are apparently made by Seagate. > > Kalok?! AHHHHHHH!!!! > > Seriously, I've had awful experiences with the few Kalok drives I tried, > and I've heard other horror stories as well. They are known to be one of > the least reliable drives ever made, and Kalok themselves folded some time > ago. > > >I do not know what is on them, or even if they work. Any interest out > >there? If not, I am going to scrap them out. > > Use them for sledgehammer practice, then send them to the aluminum > recycler. Can I watch? ;-) > Such vehemence. Why not take your repressed violence out on a Detroit product which you have so many of on the left coast. Shows that not only Max and Amerikas youth have these antagonistic and destructive tendencies towards technologies. Usually more controlled tho. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Jul 5 10:19:03 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: Compaq P III was Re: Keyboard repair parts? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990703180302.22cfd1c2@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <199907031827.OAA03257@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199907051920.PAA18275@smtp.interlog.com> On 3 Jul 99 at 18:03, Joe wrote: >I've got an apparently functioning Compaq portable, the sewing machine > >look-alikes, that I've been unable to explore because it is missing the > >cover/keyboard. It has a deep well socket that takes a standard 5-pin din > >but won't work with any of the K-Bs I've tried with it. Like the Plus it > >seems to be a proprietary interface. Anyone know of a k-b that will work > >besides the original ? > > > > Sounds like a Compaq Portable III. Did you try both an XT and an AT > style keyboard? I think I used a non-Compaq keyboard on one in the past. > There's a P III for sale on E-bay right now and I think the price was > pretty cheap. > > Joe > A II actually. I tried both XT and AT but a K-B with a switch. Didn't try it with one of my other ones since the well is too narrow for most DINs. I'll open it up and see if I can access the port that way to go thru my range of KBs. Hate the idea of buying a complete machine just to get a KB. Neat machine tho. Thanks. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Mon Jul 5 10:19:03 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: Kalok Drives In-Reply-To: <377f3c81.57884974@core.iconnet.net> References: Message-ID: <199907051920.PAA18265@smtp.interlog.com> On 3 Jul 99 at 16:40, Roberto Waltman wrote: > Hi, > > I have a couple of Kaypro computers (Z80, CP/M) that I > want to convert to "Kaypro 10": 1 'huge' 10 Mb disk. > > I would like to try those Kalok drives. > I am in New Jersey, (ZIP 07481) Where are you locates ? > > Regards, > > Roberto Waltman > > RIGHT EFFING ON !!! lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jul 5 14:13:04 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: FD235 floppy jumpers Message-ID: <9907052013.ZM25019@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> I have a number of older TEAC FD235-HF drives, and no service manual. One particularly old one has what I can only describe as a "jumper block", a matrix of 4 pins x 7 pins labelled 1,2,3,4 and A,B,C,D,E,F,G. I'd like to use this drive in a particular system that wants it set to be drive 0, with the disk-changed line active. Anyone know the settings? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jul 5 15:08:17 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: RSTS/E Sysgen Successful In-Reply-To: John Lawson "RSTS/E Sysgen Successful" (Jul 5, 12:14) References: Message-ID: <9907052108.ZM25109@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jul 5, 12:14, John Lawson wrote: > SO: the object of this sysgen was primarily to allow the use of > the RL02 disks. And here I have a stuckness: I can sucessfully > init an RL02 disk, erase it, exercise it, find it's bad blocks, and > then mount it. All ok. But I can't allocate it, write a file to it, > or get a directory. The error message is 'Device not available.' > > I can do 'show dev' and see that it is mounted, but from there I > cannot find out what the next step is. I have a RSTS Orange Wall on > the way in, but it will be almost two weeks before I get it. > > Until then.. what need I do to read and write the RL02s? I've never used RSTS, but in RSX, you have to provide a /PUB switch to mount, to mount it as public. Maybe RSTS is similar? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 5 12:17:25 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <000801bec682$377adec0$55483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jul 4, 99 07:03:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1262 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990705/cd43a486/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 5 13:39:33 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <002601bec701$80273360$79483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jul 5, 99 10:14:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 867 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990705/4d03ea32/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 5 13:42:40 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <002b01bec702$14ae93c0$79483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jul 5, 99 10:18:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1182 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990705/47e9b50b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 5 13:31:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Jul 5, 99 07:01:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1436 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990705/fd6706a4/attachment.ksh From adavie at mad.scientist.com Mon Jul 5 15:53:55 1999 From: adavie at mad.scientist.com (Andrew Davie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: SYM single board computer FA/S/T Message-ID: <001c01bec728$7fd5f460$2f171fce@default> Currently on eBay, http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=127334243 I'm happy to consider prior sale/trade offers for this desirable (boxed SYM single board computer, fine condition). About to return from holiday, this must stay behind. Looking for Russian calculators, computers, rare old game machines and cartridges. Thanks A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990705/99493922/attachment.html From lemay at cs.umn.edu Mon Jul 5 16:04:30 1999 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: FD235 floppy jumpers In-Reply-To: <9907052013.ZM25019@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Jul 5, 1999 07:13:04 pm" Message-ID: <199907052104.VAA08574@thorin.cs.umn.edu> > I have a number of older TEAC FD235-HF drives, and no service manual. One > particularly old one has what I can only describe as a "jumper block", a > matrix of 4 pins x 7 pins labelled 1,2,3,4 and A,B,C,D,E,F,G. I'd like to > use this drive in a particular system that wants it set to be drive 0, with > the disk-changed line active. Anyone know the settings? > http://www.teac.com/dsp/catalog.html You'll need adobe acrobat reader to view the PDF files. -Lawrence LeMay From max82 at surfree.com Mon Jul 5 15:07:21 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: Kalok Drives In-Reply-To: <199907051920.PAA18242@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: >which you have so many of on the left coast. Shows that not only Max and >Amerikas youth have these antagonistic and destructive tendencies towards And who do you suppose I am? That reminds me of a common phrase in news broadcasts, "The G-8, composed of the world's 7 richest nations (pause) and Russia" --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From roblwill at usaor.net Mon Jul 5 19:32:32 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason (the General)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: Fireworks in a power supply... (indirectly off topic) Message-ID: <01bec747$09a0ef60$LocalHost@THEGENERAL> O.k.... here's the question: What would cause a capacitor in a power supply to suddenly explode, spraying its 'guts' and a bunch of smoke all over the place?? Why I said it was indirectly off topic is that the power supply capacitor in question is from a car radio, but I've also had this happen in a couple laptops that I have. I replaced the capacitor in the one laptop, and it works fine, but it looks like the capacitor has "puffed up". The other one just keeps exploding as soon as I connect the power supply. I don't even have a chance to turn it on. As for the radio, it was working fine, then, *Bang!* it's dead, and smoke pours out of every opening in it. I take it apart, the top of the capacitor is missing, and there's brown liquid all over the place. The same sort of thing happens in the second laptop, but the capacitor totally explodes. Any suggestions? ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From max82 at surfree.com Mon Jul 5 15:53:33 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: Fireworks in a power supply... (indirectly off topic) In-Reply-To: <01bec747$09a0ef60$LocalHost@THEGENERAL> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, Jason (the General) wrote: >O.k.... here's the question: What would cause a capacitor in a power >supply to suddenly explode, spraying its 'guts' and a bunch of smoke all >over the place?? A power surge. I suppose it could also be accomplished by severe overheating. The same warnings apply to them as to alkaline batteries. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From edick at idcomm.com Mon Jul 5 17:11:39 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:04 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <002d01bec733$6d62bec0$75483cd1@fuj03> You can use any connector which suits you. You can use any name for a bus, even Fred or Jake. You can use any existing bus protocol you desire. It's your computer. What I said, apparently not clearly enough, is that I'm partial to the VME, and, though the typical wire-wrap connector for VME (i.e. that particular connector, VME or not) costs more than a typical PC at the junk store. I made the mistake of believing that, from your prior comments in other context, you watch every penny with considerable interest, and you might appreciate the opportunity to use a video board, perhaps a Mono, or a VGA, or even HGA, none of which use interrupts or DMA. For that reason I figured you'd not mind corrupting the "standard" usage of ISA signals since you'd not be using circuits which use the ones which you felt were inappropriately implemented. I said that because if you go dumpster diving in almost any business park or office complex, you'll find ISA serial cards and ISA video cards, particularly on a Monday or a Friday. OTOH, if dumpsters are not to your taste, the thrift stores sell them for the approximate cost of a burger here in the US. You can get LAN boards and others there too, but they sometimes use interrupts and DMA, which might be a problem if you've changed the way in which you use them from what a typical PC does. In my view, and that's not universal, by any means, $2 VME cards don't come up often enough for me ever to have seen one. If you like VME and find them to be cheap enough, I think that's an excellent choice, not that my approval is needed for what goes in YOUR computer. I did say, however, that if I were going to switch to the 96-pin DIN 41612 connector, I'd use VME because that gives me a fallback position if I haven't time, patience, or skill enough to create my own ??? and I don't mind shelling out the $$$. I can guarantee you, though, that if you build your own serial card for whatever bus, it will cost more for the parts than an ISA video card at the thrift store would cost. Maybe, if you intend to roll your own, you SHOULD build an ISA adapter or two, so you can save the time and trouble, not to mention expense, of building a card you can buy for little money. That way you can allocate your scarce resources in the way which best serves your goals and build your own video board, or whatever, later. If you were to choose to reinvent the ISA on a better connector, being short a couple of pins, you could quickly do away with the 4x Color-burst oscillator and the AEN signal, neither of which would do much four you outside the PC. regards, Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, July 05, 1999 2:14 PM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) >> >> On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >If I were using the DIN connectors, I'd get a standard out, read and >> >understand it, and then use it, calling it VME, its rightful name. >> >Unfortunately, I'd not be able to get a two-port serial board or a LAN board >> >for VME from the local thrift store. >> >> I don't get it...are you saying that the connector somehow determines the >> bus? An bus could in theory be compatible with ISA and use some other >> connector, and still be ISA for the most part. > >Exactly. A 3-row DIN 41612 connector has 96 pins. ISA bus has 98 pins (on >a 16 bit slot). And I'm sure I could find 2 signals that I could 'do >without' (miss off one of the DMA channels?). > >In other words you could put something with much the same signals as ISA >on a DIN41612 if you wanted to. The result shouldn't be called ISA >(because you can't just plug a card straight in). But it would work, and >the cards would be easy to design. > >I like DIN41612 connectors because you can easily use them on homebrew >cards. Wire-wrap versions exist. If you want to use a card edge type of >connector you really have to gold-plate the PCB, and that's hard to do at >home. It's also a pain having to get a PCB house to make all the >prototype boards. Much easier if you can homebrew them. > >I've used those connectors for all sorts of things, most of them not >VME-related. Of course I've not called the result VME... > >-tony > From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon Jul 5 17:25:12 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Fireworks in a power supply... (indirectly off topic) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/5/99 5:36:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, roblwill@usaor.net writes: << O.k.... here's the question: What would cause a capacitor in a power supply to suddenly explode, spraying its 'guts' and a bunch of smoke all over the place?? >> Remarkable -- the same thing happened to a desktop PC of mine years ago. I had been using it for a couple of hours, when BANG -- smoke -- and the system shut down. It was so loud my wife raced into the room, thinking I'd been shot (imagine her disappointment at finding me alive ;>). Cursory examination revealed a filter cap with the top blown off; further inspection turned up a short in the transformer. Glen Goodwin 0/0 From musicman38 at mindspring.com Mon Jul 5 17:45:53 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Macintosh and MIDI References: <001c01bec728$7fd5f460$2f171fce@default> Message-ID: <378135A1.413237EB@mindspring.com> Hello Everyone, I just got a nice Mac Classic II computer, with 10MB RAM, 60MB Hard Drive installed. It has System 7.1 OS.. I know very little about these machines, but was wondering if any of the Mac experts here know if I could use this computer to play my MIDI files that have collected over the years. I have software and MIDI instruments that I use on my PC, but this computer would be very nice to use because of its small compact size.. Phil... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 206 bytes Desc: Card for Phil Clayton Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990705/77195dc4/vcard.vcf From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 5 16:27:31 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 XT In-Reply-To: <199907051920.PAA18195@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Jul 5, 99 03:19:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1931 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990705/fd3f6302/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 5 17:04:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: FD235 floppy jumpers In-Reply-To: <9907052013.ZM25019@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jul 5, 99 07:13:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1526 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990705/292cdfe9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 5 16:39:07 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 XT In-Reply-To: <199907051920.PAA18227@smtp.interlog.com> from "Lawrence Walker" at Jul 5, 99 03:19:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1796 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990705/9327a659/attachment.ksh From jpl15 at netcom.com Mon Jul 5 17:57:54 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Fireworks in a power supply... (indirectly off topic) In-Reply-To: <01bec747$09a0ef60$LocalHost@THEGENERAL> Message-ID: This is why gear which has been sitting around a long time should be 'eased' back into operation... especially minicomputers with large multiple power supplies: Electrolytic capacitors use aluminum foil for the electrodes, and aluminum oxide for the insulation between them. This insulation is formed on the surface of the foil by a chemical which is contained within the capacitor case, soaked up by porous paper wound up in the spool of aluminum. When the capacitor dries out, from a pinhole leak or heat or age, or if there is internal shorting, heat is generated. If the current is strong enough, the heat boils the chemical and that usually breaches the case somehow. Most electrolytics have a designed in 'safety-valve' of some kind or another, either a thin rubber plug in the can, or in the case of small PC-mount units, the case itself is scored with lines in the material, so it will rupture there first. Then the guts come spewing out with a bang, and paper bits and aluminum foil go all over. I have had this happen while bending over a board trouble shooting it; damn good thing I wear glasses because the cap-guts coated both lenses and would have gone right in my eyes. I have been around many of the darn things when they pop, and have seen some spectacular (and very dangerous) situations where the larger sizes have gone off and destroyed equipment in the process. My second PDP-11/04 ran fine for about two weeks, and then one afternoon the +15V regulator filters woofed their cookies simultaneously, one blew up and one hissed like a snake... it took two weeks to get the smell out of the house.... Then there was the 7805 TO-220 regulator on a Cromemco memory board I was fixing out on the bench... *it* blew up and embedded a sliver of epoxy in my cheek, as well as scaring the *%^&$ out of me... I didn't know I was wounded until blood dripped off my chin onto the board... I had to go to the emergency room and have it dug out.. what fun. The doctor was so fascinated that I was working on a computer at home (1978) that he kept stopping to ask questions about the machine, and what it could do, and.... But I'm getting off topic, no? Cheers John From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jul 5 18:56:29 1999 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: FD235 floppy jumpers In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: FD235 floppy jumpers" (Jul 5, 23:04) References: Message-ID: <9907060056.ZM25508@indy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jul 5, 23:04, Tony Duell wrote: > I have _a_ FD235 service manual here. The problem is that there are many > versions, and my manual only covers one or two of them. It shows the 'F' > as having the 4*7 block and the 'HF' as having a 3*7 block. Oh well... > > Here are the settings for those, in case they're any use Excellent, thanks, Tony! I'll try that out tomorrow. I've just spent ages trying to connect to TEAC's web site, after Lawrence suggested a URL -- but no luck for me. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Jul 5 19:17:22 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: 1975 Dollars (was RE: State of the Hobby) In-Reply-To: <199907051920.PAA18209@smtp.interlog.com> References: <4.1.19990702205512.00b25aa0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <4.1.19990705201234.00ae9e10@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 03:19 PM 7/5/99 +0000, Lawrence Walker said something like: >On 2 Jul 99 at 21:01, Christian Fandt wrote: > >> Upon the date 11:10 AM 7/1/99 -0700, Kai Kaltenbach said something like: >> >I grabbed the Consumer Price Index history off the web, pasted into Excel, -- snip -- >> >At 11:02 AM 7/1/99 -0600, you (somebody else, that is... -crf) wrote: >> >> >> >>In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at >> >>$565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was >> >>in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. >> > >> >I suppose there must be a web site, somewhere, that would let you enter >> >a date and a US dollar amount, and would show you the equivalent value >> >in today's dollars, accounting for actual inflation, etc. in the >> >intervening years. >> >> Actually there is something that should give some sort of results you are >> looking for. Here's a useful site I found quite awhile ago that is on the >> Johnson Space Center server: >> >> http://krakatoa.jsc.nasa.gov/bu2/inflate.html and look at the "GDP >> Deflator Inflation Calculator" link. >> >> I suppose it's a valuable tool to forecast project expenses into the future >> as project development can last for many years in NASA. >> >> Regards, Chris >> -- -- > > Unfortunately, as you are likely aware of Chris, these price comparisons and >dollar values don't really capture the market realities of the time. Not like >when you were there. The going wage levels, at times inflated prices for some >commodities, and rent,food prices, expectations, and cultural demands also >played a role. Each era has it's "norm" demands and when I reflect back to the >40's and 50's our expectations and demands from that time make the present >ones those that only the wealthy of that era could afford. Hollywood >generally makes as bad a representation when they do their period pieces. All this is understood well by most of us. The NASA calculator merely gives a ballpark idea of the value of something in a particular year compared to dollar value of another year. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association Check our redesigned website! URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 5 18:02:12 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Fireworks in a power supply... (indirectly off topic) In-Reply-To: <01bec747$09a0ef60$LocalHost@THEGENERAL> from "Jason" at Jul 5, 99 05:32:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1595 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990706/c530c0f7/attachment.ksh From thompson at athenet.net Mon Jul 5 20:29:47 1999 From: thompson at athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Fireworks in a power supply... (indirectly off topic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think that this is actually rather on topic for collecting of classic computers. Should a home based collector be especially worried about the possible destructive ability of a blown power supply? I have had the H7868 power supplies go out on my Qbus machine with only that distinctive fried electronics odor and a downed system. What are and how likely are dangerous situations if the power supply goes when I am not at home? Paul On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, John Lawson wrote: > This is why gear which has been sitting around a long time should > be 'eased' back into operation... especially minicomputers with > large multiple power supplies: snip > I have been around > many of the darn things when they pop, and have seen some spectacular > (and very dangerous) situations where the larger sizes have gone off > and destroyed equipment in the process. > > Cheers > > John > > > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Mon Jul 5 20:30:32 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: The Computer Journal In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990703201739.25570c68@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Dave Dameron wrote: > Well it's been a year since I subscribed to "The Computer Journal" and have > received no issues and have gotton no responses for my requests for a refund. > Has anyone else asked for a refund? Received one? > Their web page is at: > www.psyber.com/~tcj > The last issue is apparently #81, spring 1998. Me too, basically. I'm not really sweating it though. The last I heard Dave Baldwin had no time to devote to the magazine and the guy who took it over (forget his name) fell into the same deal. They're good guys and would never intentionally screw anyone over. That doesn't help you in getting your money back though. I know people who knows Dave directly, so I'll try to find out what the deal is and if we can ever expect either our money back or the continuation of the subscription. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From Glenatacme at aol.com Mon Jul 5 20:36:06 1999 From: Glenatacme at aol.com (Glenatacme@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... Message-ID: <14d55535.24b2b786@aol.com> Hey Mike: In a message dated 7/5/99 12:44:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mikeford@netwiz.net writes: > >For laughs I took a pair of the so called 60W per speakers, opened them > >and put them on a 50w dummyload and measured them. They did 12W RMS at > > Fry me in butter if I'm wrong, but I think the FTC (Federal Trade > Commission, the agency in the USA that enforces truth in advertising etc.) > is pretty sick of these 500 watt wall wart powered speakers and plans to > apply the same requirements on powered speakers as they do now for > amplifiers. Pardon my asking, but where did you hear this? It's just a little hard to believe, since MS has lied, and lied, and lied about Windows 9x . . . and the FTC doesn't bother them. Have you ever installed Win 95 or 98 (any release) and read the "informative notes" which are displayed while the (seemingly) endless file-copy is in progress? "Windows 9x makes your computer more reliable" "Windows 9x makes your computer easier to use" "DOS programs run faster and more reliable" "Windows 9x provides the features you want" (sure, Blue Screen of Death) For a real laugh, "Windows is now (mis) configuring your hardware and any Plug and Play (Pray) devices you may have" If the FTC wants to go after an easy target re truth in advertising, they need look no further than Redmond. IMHO, the claims MS makes are even more outrageous than those of the Taiwanese speaker guys. Glen Goodwin 0/0 From ddameron at earthlink.net Mon Jul 5 17:13:22 1999 From: ddameron at earthlink.net (Dave Dameron) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 XT In-Reply-To: References: <199907051920.PAA18227@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.19990705171322.21f7dd54@earthlink.net> At 10:39 PM 7/5/99 +0100, you wrote: >[CGA and MDA cards/monitors] > >Now consider the 5151 MDA monitor. The is no equivalent of 'Q402'. The >incoming horizontal sync signal goes straight to the driver stage. So the >horizontal system will run at whatever frequency you try to drive it at. >Even if that results in major blow-ups. > Does that mean if one is turned on without a connection to any computer, there will be no CRT anode voltage (The horizontal output transistor has no drive and is off)? -Dave From jlwest at tseinc.com Mon Jul 5 20:50:02 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Advice wanted on Kennedy 9600 and PDP11/23 Message-ID: <000a01bec751$ddded800$0101a8c0@jay> Greetings: I have a Kennedy 9600 tape drive (cream and black, horizontal loading) on an 11/23 via a third party card. I have always used the 1600bpi setting, but now have reason to read some old 800bpi tapes. The operating system is RT-11 v5.04, FB. I'm not sure if the drive supports 800bpi as alas I have no docs for it at all. My crude test was going to be a backup of du1 (the floppy) to ms0 (the kennedy) at PE setting and see how long it took and count the tape forward movements. Then do the same with the drive set for NRZI and see if it takes longer and generates more tape forward movements. A "backup/dev du1: ms0:" set at PE works fine. The same command with a /ver option also works fine. However, when I set NRZI, it looks like its backing up, the tape cycles much more slowly forward, but eventually I get an RT-11 "output error". If the drive really doesn't support 800bpi, I would think it wouldn't even try writing NRZI. So - my question is (given the above info) - is the drive broke but only for 800bpi or am I doing something silly? Thanks in advance! jay West From musicman38 at mindspring.com Mon Jul 5 21:31:50 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: PC to Mac file transfers References: <001c01bec728$7fd5f460$2f171fce@default> <378135A1.413237EB@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <37816A96.B08DE8E5@mindspring.com> Does anyone here know how I can transfer downloaded files from my PC to my newly acquired Mac by floppy disk.. ? Any help greatly appreciated.. Phil... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 206 bytes Desc: Card for Phil Clayton Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990705/da8403f4/vcard.vcf From max82 at surfree.com Mon Jul 5 20:36:06 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... In-Reply-To: <14d55535.24b2b786@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 Glenatacme@aol.com wrote: >"Windows 9x makes your computer more reliable" >"Windows 9x makes your computer easier to use" >"DOS programs run faster and more reliable" >"Windows 9x provides the features you want" (sure, Blue Screen of Death) For one thing, this rant is wholly uncalled for while we're talking about capacitors blowing up inside radios. You should really save more often, then you won't get as angry when the system crashes :) As it happens, these claims aren't objective, and there is no way to prove them right or wrong. "DOS programs run faster and more reliably", for example. Relative to what? Perhaps to a Windows 3.x DOS window, they do. In fact, it could be said to be more reliable than in plain DOS, because a dead DOS application in Windows doesn't always force a reboot. Lastly, there is no reason to evaluate Windows on the basis of what it says while running the setup program. There are objective ways of analyzing it, such as system requirements, disk access time, etc. Speakers, on the other hand, may be objectively evaluated by the amount of watts that they consume. If they are purposely mis-labelled so as to increase sales, the FTC can go after them. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Mon Jul 5 21:12:53 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: OT: Mailreader setups/Re: E-Bay URLs rant In-Reply-To: <199907050328.AA21032@world.std.com> Message-ID: My quick .02, I use pine via SSH on my box at work, since it's been the only way I can keep mail messages organized and available on the work, home, and laptop machines. Pine users shouldn't complain too much, since you can set it up to launch a web browser for inline URL's in mail messages. I have mine launch lynx by default, but the nice thing about SSH is that you can forward secure X connections and even a biggie like the KDE web browser runs surprisingly well over DSL... But I agree, a one-line description would be polite. Aaron On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > > I use pine via Telnet from work... slow but works. > > The home system runs RDFmail and that uses a no slip or ppp interface so > going from mail to Nyetscrap is a whole change of enviroment in W3.1. > > A brief one liner so we know if it's worth the effort is not much to ask. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jul 5 23:08:37 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: PC to Mac file transfers In-Reply-To: <37816A96.B08DE8E5@mindspring.com> References: <001c01bec728$7fd5f460$2f171fce@default> <378135A1.413237EB@mindspring.com> Message-ID: >Does anyone here know how I can transfer downloaded files from my PC to my >newly acquired Mac by floppy disk.. ? >Any help greatly appreciated.. >Phil... I assume by newly acquired you don't mean one of the new G3's that is missing the floppy drive? What verion of MacOS is it running? If it's running something like 7.1 (I think that's when it was added) or later you can simply read a FAT formated floppy. Ah, just checked the other message you just sent, so you've got 7.1, and an older Mac. Hmmmm, something else to be aware of, I think you need the 1.44Mb floppy to be able to read FAT floppies, don't think that works with 800k floppies. If the FAT floppies don't work, there are utilities now that will let you read/write Mac floppies on a PC now, but I don't know anything about them. I remember using 'Executor' (Mac Emulator) under Linux several years ago when I got my first Mac, read Mac floppies on a PC. The eval version has/had a 10 minute time limit, which was long enough to let you use it for copying files. Unfortunatly I don't know what the current state of such things are as I'm writing this from a PowerMac :^) I occasionally have to worry about getting stuff from the Mac to a PC though, at which point I just toss it on one of my servers via my network (in my opinion the best method). BTW, Linux makes a great fileserver for Mac's. >Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Description: Card for Phil Clayton >Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" > >Attachment converted: Internet HD:vcard.vcf 1 (TEXT/ttxt) (000029E8) Please do everyone a favor and turn this off. We don't enjoy these files cluttering up our hard drives. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From paul at paul.dragontear.org Mon Jul 5 23:23:35 1999 From: paul at paul.dragontear.org (paul yaskowski) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: More Minix questions Message-ID: <19990706002335.A31572@paul.dragontear.org> Hello, I have an IBM PS/2 Model 50 that I'm trying to install Minix 2.0.0 on. I've read a considerable amount of documentation trying to get this to work. ;> I'm using 720k floppies, etc.. Minix boots, and I'm able to run 'setup,' but my problems begin when I use 'part.' I load up 'part,' and I select /dev/hd0, which is the type 30, 20Mb drive that's in the computer. When I try to read the partition table, I receive: bios-hd0: can't read partition table Unrecoverable disk error on device 3/0, block 0 /dev/hd0: I/O error /dev/hd0: Invalid partition table (reset) Besides from the unrecoverable error, it seems to me that I should be able to merely write a new partition table (i'm not too concerned about whatever the hell was on the drive before. ;>). If anyone has insight into my problems, I'd greatly appreciate a reply. I'm killing myself over here trying to get this smelly computer that I pulled out of the trash working. ;> Minix seems interesting to me, if only because it's not generally heard of. If you cannot help with my Minix questions, perhaps you know of another O/S that will run on a 286 with 1Mb of ram? Ideally with networking capabilities. I don't know why I want to do something with this machine so badly, but I have a thing for old computers. :) Thanks. BTW, this computer is 12 years old, hence on-topic. :) -- paul yaskowski [a paradigm of a paramount failure] From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jul 6 00:15:13 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: RT-11 and TK50's Message-ID: Is it possible to make a bootable TK50 with RT-11, that can then be used to install RT-11 if something happens to the Hard Drive? I know there is a script that makes a RT-11 install tape, but is that tape bootable? Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jul 6 00:21:23 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: More Minix questions In-Reply-To: <19990706002335.A31572@paul.dragontear.org> Message-ID: >Hello, > > I have an IBM PS/2 Model 50 that I'm trying to install Minix 2.0.0 on. >I've read a considerable amount of documentation trying to get this to >work. ;> I'm using 720k floppies, etc.. Minix boots, and I'm able to >run 'setup,' but my problems begin when I use 'part.' > > I load up 'part,' and I select /dev/hd0, which is the type 30, 20Mb drive >that's in the computer. When I try to read the partition table, I >receive: > > bios-hd0: can't read partition table > Unrecoverable disk error on device 3/0, block 0 Hmmm, the PS/2 Model 50 is a Micro Channel based system IIRC, which wasn't even supported under Linux until recently. Then there is the question of what kind of HD does it have? If it's ESDI that might be a problem, though at 20Mb, I'd guess a MFM drive, which shouldn't be a problem. I think the real question is, does Minix 2.0 support the PS/2. Unfortunaltly other than asking these questions, I can't be of any help. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Jul 6 01:21:53 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Old chips? In-Reply-To: <000601bec65d$351b6ac0$a5d302c7@camaro.enginet.com> References: Message-ID: Poking in the depths of a salvage place I found a plastic box full of 2164's and it started me to wondering, did I want to buy them, should I buy any old chips such as 2716 eproms? Now its a given that anything I can pry away from the scrap path for little money I do. Deal sweeteners like, haggle haggle haggle, OK, but how about tossing in that box of chips too. I am talking the serious money situation where the guy wants $3 or $4 bucks for the box, not some token amount. From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Tue Jul 6 05:58:02 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Surplus Attraction? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19990703084519.23070afa@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 03 Jul 1999 08:45:19 Joe wrote: > At 09:25 PM 7/2/99 -0700, John wrote: > > > According to the Laws of Surplus Attractionm can a PDP-8 be far > >behind?? > > No, not until you get rid of all the accessories that you need for it THEN > the PDP-8 will show up. "Surplus Attraction" works for me: I had a Mac Plus sitting on my desk at the Uni, and it attracted enough attention for me to acquire two more Mac Pluses. BTW, one of the Mac Plus machines arrived in normal beige, and the other in a more modern-looking grey. I didn't know that there were two colour schemes... -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Jul 6 07:28:32 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Advice wanted on Kennedy 9600 and PDP11/23 Message-ID: <990706082832.2a2002aa@trailing-edge.com> >I have a Kennedy 9600 tape drive (cream and black, horizontal loading) on an >11/23 via a third party card. What is the third party card? >A "backup/dev du1: ms0:" set at PE works fine. The same command with a /ver >option also works fine. However, when I set NRZI, it looks like its backing >up, the tape cycles much more slowly forward, but eventually I get an RT-11 >"output error". If the drive really doesn't support 800bpi, I would think it >wouldn't even try writing NRZI. So - my question is (given the above info) - >is the drive broke but only for 800bpi or am I doing something silly? Well, the tape does need to be re-inited at the new density. Are you doing the INIT before the BACKUP, or doing a BACKUP/INIT? Does the INIT operation work OK? Can you do a DIR MS: after the INIT at 800 BPI? Other than that, the -11 doesn't much care what density the tape is at, but the controller card might. Try to identify it (maybe a Dilog DQ132? DQ133? Emulex TC02? TC03? QT13?) and I'll see what I can figure out. Some controller cards (the Dilogs in particular) might be expecting part of the PE burst to come down the cabling. I'm not awfully familiar with the Kennedy 9600, but if it's like the 9614 it supports 800, 1600, 3200, and 6250 BPI. Yours is the Pertec-formatted (two 50-pin cables) interface? I'll also point out that NRZI requires a lot tighter physical tolerances on the alignment of the tape head (the reason why many drives don't support 800 BPI NRZI at all) than 1600 and 6250 BPI (which allow substantial skew between the tape channels as part ofthe spec.) If at some point the head in your transport had been replaced or knocked around without properly being re-aligned you might see something like what you're seeing. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Jul 6 07:35:25 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: RT-11 and TK50's Message-ID: <990706083525.2a2002aa@trailing-edge.com> >Is it possible to make a bootable TK50 with RT-11, that can then be used to >install RT-11 if something happens to the Hard Drive? I know there is a >script that makes a RT-11 install tape, but is that tape bootable? Sure, just assign BIN to the disk with the completem set of distribution files, assign KIT to the tape drive (MU0), and do a @MUB. The resulting tape will be bootable into MDUP.MU (a simple utility that lets you initialize a disk and copy the tape files to it, and then boots the disk.) The MDUP instructions are in the RT-11 Installation manual - ask if you don't have the book and need help. TK50 tapes are also bootable into MDUP.AI, the "auto-install" version. An auto-install from TK50 takes hours, but it does work if your hardware meets the AI requirements. Note that the MUB.COM build file will expect every file that comes on an official RT-11 distribution to be present on BIN:. You better have every file, and ideally they'd be those from a "virgin" system. Things like driver SET commands may make your particular install be "non-virgin". -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 6 08:31:37 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... Message-ID: <199907061331.AA28857@world.std.com> "Windows 9x makes your computer more reliable" <>"Windows 9x makes your computer easier to use" <>"DOS programs run faster and more reliable" <>"Windows 9x provides the features you want" (sure, Blue Screen of Death) The rant is unneeded. I'm not a MS lover (VMS is my love) but I also make a living keeping 40 clients and 3 servers going running W95 and NT on late 486, p133 and P166 systems, while supporting users and various programmable control systems. IT does work, it's works amazingly well. It's not VMS and nowhere near as robust, it is far better than DOS. It is possible during install and even during hardware purchase to do things that will compromize the system. Usually the problem is poor apps that don't run well under any OS or not taking advantage of service paks that MS does provice. Now PS failures is something to pay attention to as the results can be anything from annoying to downright dangerous. Any new system should be run in a safe place under a watchful eye until it's assured it's operation will remain stable after being powered off for years. NOTE: Many systems the case, rack and other components are essenital to their fire safety, do not compromize. Fuses and circuit breakers should be of the correct rating. Make sure they weren't replaced by oversized (or undersized!) ones in a prior life. Capacitors will blow if overvoltage, age, reverse polarity, excessive ripple (bad rectifiers), bad internal design or a result of previous abuses. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 6 08:31:49 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: OT: Mailreader setups/Re: E-Bay URLs rant Message-ID: <199907061331.AA29061@world.std.com> Message-ID: Hmm, I guess I'll post this on here, too... On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > does anyone recall exactly what must be done to make 2.9BSD work with > fuji160s? I'm only getting about 30MB out of them, but I haven't really > tried anything yet. I have no tape drive, but instead (4) rl02 packs with > the /usr fs broken up about equally between them in tar format. The sc21s > I have available are SC2110201-BMG and SC2110201/V1E. > > BTW, what are the real capability differences in these boards? > > > TIA > > jake > > From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Jul 6 09:36:26 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Advice wanted on Kennedy 9600 and PDP11/23 Message-ID: <004301bec7bc$eee64500$0101a8c0@jay> Tim wrote... >What is the third party card? It's an Emulex. The card has silkscreened Assy TU0210401 REV C. One one of the chips, it says Top Assy TC0210201-FSH, Sub Assy C6716 C. Two 50 pin ribbon cables look pretty Pertec-ish to me. There's a 4 switch dip and LED between the ribbon cables. There's also a 20 pin header (2 rows of 10) on each side of the ribbon cable connectors. In the center of the board are two 10 position dip switches. There's 3 sets of wire wrap jumper pins as follows: at the top A,B,C,D in the middle E,F,G, and at the bottom H,J,K,L. On my board, the 4 switch dip SW1 has all switched towards the PCA (closed). On the center two 10 position dips, SW2 is all down or off except #8; SW3 all are down or off except #1,3,7,8. On wirewraps, A-B, C-D,E-F. There appears to be a few ECO wires added to the board too. >Well, the tape does need to be re-inited at the new density. Are you >doing the INIT before the BACKUP, or doing a BACKUP/INIT? Does the INIT >operation work OK? Can you do a DIR MS: after the INIT at 800 BPI? In my version of RT11 (5.04), /init isn't a valid option on the backup command. But, when I do a backup/dev du1: ms0: it does ask if I want to initialize, that seems to complete, then the backup goes on and finally an output error. Once I get the tape controller reinstalled, I'll tell you for sure. >I'm not awfully familiar with the Kennedy 9600, but if it's like the 9614 >it supports 800, 1600, 3200, and 6250 BPI. Yours is the Pertec-formatted >(two 50-pin cables) interface? Yup, pertec. It would appear to support 800 and 1600, because the density switch toggles between PE and NRZI one at a time (plus a remote setting for each). >I'll also point out that NRZI requires a lot tighter physical tolerances >on the alignment of the tape head (the reason why many drives don't support >800 BPI NRZI at all) than 1600 and 6250 BPI (which allow substantial skew >between the tape channels as part ofthe spec.) If at some point the head >in your transport had been replaced or knocked around without properly >being re-aligned you might see something like what you're seeing. Really! I didn't know that. When I got the tape drive, it had been in storage and was immaculately clean. Other than usual wear on the door, it looked in fantastic condition. What's involved in aligning the heads? I take it I would need an alignment tape? 1600bpi seems to work great though, both reading and writing. Any help is most appreciated! Jay West From max82 at surfree.com Tue Jul 6 08:45:44 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: More Minix questions In-Reply-To: <19990706002335.A31572@paul.dragontear.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, paul yaskowski wrote: > I load up 'part,' and I select /dev/hd0, which is the type 30, 20Mb drive >that's in the computer. When I try to read the partition table, I >receive: Perhaps related to the non-standard disk controller... --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Jul 6 10:07:44 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Advice wanted on Kennedy 9600 and PDP11/23 Message-ID: <990706110744.2a2002aa@trailing-edge.com> >>What is the third party card? >It's an Emulex. The card has silkscreened Assy TU0210401 REV C. One one of >the chips, it says Top Assy TC0210201-FSH, Sub Assy C6716 C. OK, I use many TC02's here, and have never had a problem at 800 BPI. (The only density problems I've had have been on Dilogs, having to do with expecting PE bursts at the beginning of the tape.) >>Well, the tape does need to be re-inited at the new density. Are you >>doing the INIT before the BACKUP, or doing a BACKUP/INIT? Does the INIT >>operation work OK? Can you do a DIR MS: after the INIT at 800 BPI? >In my version of RT11 (5.04), /init isn't a valid option on the backup >command. Historically, the BUP.SAV options have been out of sync with the CCL BACKUP (command line) options for many versions of RT-11. This was always a damn shame, as it discouraged folks from using BACKUP. Things get fixed in 5.5 and later. > But, when I do a backup/dev du1: ms0: it does ask if I want to >initialize, that seems to complete, then the backup goes on and finally an >output error. Once I get the tape controller reinstalled, I'll tell you for >sure. What happens if you just INIT MS0: and COPY a couple of files to it? Can you read them back off at 800 BPI? BACKUP uses 4096-byte blocks, while the COPY (PIP.SAV) operations use 512-byte blocks. It's conceivable that you'll only have troubles with the long blocks. >>I'll also point out that NRZI requires a lot tighter physical tolerances >>on the alignment of the tape head (the reason why many drives don't support >>800 BPI NRZI at all) than 1600 and 6250 BPI (which allow substantial skew >>between the tape channels as part ofthe spec.) If at some point the head >>in your transport had been replaced or knocked around without properly >>being re-aligned you might see something like what you're seeing. >Really! I didn't know that. Yep. NRZI is a pretty low-tech interface, and it relies entirely on good alignment of the heads for timing. PE and GCR allow skews of up to several bits that are disentangled by the electronics in the formatter. > When I got the tape drive, it had been in >storage and was immaculately clean. Other than usual wear on the door, it >looked in fantastic condition. What's involved in aligning the heads? I take >it I would need an alignment tape? 1600bpi seems to work great though, both >reading and writing. It takes a master alignment tape, a scope, and a resistor network that sums the outputs from the tape channels. The master alignment tape has transitions that are supposedly well-aligned between all channels, and you tweak the head until you get a nice pattern on the scope. I can fax you a few pages from drive maintenance manuals on the procedure if you're really interested. Many drives do deskewing of NRZI in electronics (usually with shift registers running at several time the data rate) in addition to having the head being aligned correctly overall. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From jlwest at tseinc.com Tue Jul 6 10:12:59 1999 From: jlwest at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Advice wanted on Kennedy 9600 and PDP11/23 Message-ID: <005201bec7c2$0aa01a00$0101a8c0@jay> Now that my TC02 is re-installed, it won't work at all. The select light never comes on. ARGH!!! I'll fiddle with it later today since I'm off work. If I can't get it working, would anyone be willing to convert some 800bpi tapes to 1600bpi for me? The tapes are the initial load tapes for HP2000Access (Timeshare BASIC). My 7970E doesn't speak 800bpi, so I need to convert them. Of course, the tapes are priceless to me so I'm loath to send them out, but they are useless at 800bpi. On the other hand, I was wondering about what is involved in making my 7900E read 800bpi? ISTR that different heads are needed - which it too much modifications to me. GRrrrr.... >It takes a master alignment tape, a scope, and a resistor network that sums >the outputs from the tape channels. The master alignment tape has transitions >that are supposedly well-aligned between all channels, and you tweak the >head until you get a nice pattern on the scope. I can fax you a few pages >from drive maintenance manuals on the procedure if you're really interested. Well, I have the scope (20mhz ok?), but no alignment tape or resistor network. Thanks in advance for all the help! Jay West From edick at idcomm.com Tue Jul 6 10:34:56 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Advice wanted on Kennedy 9600 and PDP11/23 Message-ID: <000601bec7c5$1a17ba80$62483cd1@fuj03> I have what claims to be an IBM master alignment tape. I haven't looked at it in detail in over 20 years, but I just saw it yesterday. Is this somehing you (or all of you) could use? Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jay West To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 9:28 AM Subject: Re: Advice wanted on Kennedy 9600 and PDP11/23 >Now that my TC02 is re-installed, it won't work at all. The select light >never comes on. ARGH!!! I'll fiddle with it later today since I'm off work. > >If I can't get it working, would anyone be willing to convert some 800bpi >tapes to 1600bpi for me? The tapes are the initial load tapes for >HP2000Access (Timeshare BASIC). My 7970E doesn't speak 800bpi, so I need to >convert them. Of course, the tapes are priceless to me so I'm loath >to send them out, but they are useless at 800bpi. > >On the other hand, I was wondering about what is involved in making my 7900E >read 800bpi? ISTR that different heads are needed - which it too much >modifications to me. GRrrrr.... > >>It takes a master alignment tape, a scope, and a resistor network that sums >>the outputs from the tape channels. The master alignment tape has >transitions >>that are supposedly well-aligned between all channels, and you tweak the >>head until you get a nice pattern on the scope. I can fax you a few pages >>from drive maintenance manuals on the procedure if you're really >interested. > > >Well, I have the scope (20mhz ok?), but no alignment tape or resistor >network. > >Thanks in advance for all the help! > >Jay West > From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 6 10:28:30 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: State of the Hobby Message-ID: <020a01bec7d1$f3725040$0512883e@dangermouse> Hi, >Please snip off excess text while replying.... I'd like echo this sentiment. Of late I've been receiving quite a few messages which quote the entire message and just add a line or two to the end....many of there are quite large messages (over 6K) and for some reason I end up not being able to download them from my mailbox (I cannot even telnet in and view them on-line). All I can do is delete them from my mailbox, it's very frustrating as I'm therefore losing parts of threads - usually ones which I'm trying to follow.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 6 10:53:35 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. Message-ID: <020b01bec7d1$f455ab60$0512883e@dangermouse> Hi Tony, >Well, it has a text formatter. It has a C compiler. That's all I really >need :-) Unfortunately I need to use DVE and a 6809 assembler at the moment, I'm sure the latter is around for Linux but I'm pretty sure DVE isn't (I tought I once saw a Linux port of DVE somewhere, but I'm darned if I can find any trace of it now). >....And I share your views on Sinclair machines. They were cheap to the >point of stupidity..... Thanks, glad to know I'm not the only one.... The thing about Sinclair machines is that they are masterpieces of design, but I always found that cleverness "crippled" them rather too much. The '80 wasn't too bad since it was built up using straight TTL, however the '81 and subsequent machines used ASICS to reduce the chip count which meant you couldn't get in there and hack things around. Then from a software point of view I found I was constantly fighting against the built in OS/BIOS whenever I tried to do pretty much anything outside of BASIC programming. Also in those days, particularly when the '80 was in fashion, coming by detailed technical details on the hardware and software wasn't easy - even though there was a thriving home micro/Sinclair community around. I can't honestly say that I have many fond memories of my ZX80/81 days. >....The QL is a major case in point..... >....disk drives, and a real keyboard, it might have done >rather better... I didn't know about the serial port problems. ISTR that when the QL came out it caused more than a few eyebrows to be raised. While it was a very nice machine for it's day the decisions to use the awful Speccy style keyboard and microdrives for storage (3.5" floppy drives had reached reasonable prices by then, witness the Opus disc drives for the Speccy) were widely criticised. Chances are I may have gotten one sooner or later, but in the end other considerations won out. >....I started on an MK14. It took me many years to figure out that darn >manual.... I always wanted one of those, but never did get my hands on one. I almost certainly have my old issues of "ETI" and "Practical Electronics" somewhere containing the MK.14 adverts (and Acorn System 1 ads). Did any/all of the advertised add-ons ever appear, PROM programmer, VDU etc etc? >If you need any help on the HP150, I have the full tech manual for it... That's good to know, it works OK but I'm sure I'll have a few questions when it gets to the top of the current projects file.... ;-) TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 6 11:38:22 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: What is a Sirius? Message-ID: <020c01bec7d1$f55911a0$0512883e@dangermouse> Hi Tony, >....printer port that looks to be Centronics, but in fact it has enough >lines, and the right buffers, to be GPIB if you can get the right >software.... Have you ever found software which will drive the Centronics port as GPIB? I've been looking around since I first got a Sirius in '88 but have never found any. >Sound is a CI-55516 CODEC linked to a 6852 serial chip. There's a >built-in speaker, and a header plug for audio input (!). I've never seen >software for that either, though. If you mean software which drives the CODEC I've only ever came across one program which uses it, and that was a demo disc which displayed various hi-res graphics and played back digitised music and speech. I was given to understand that a few games came out for the Sirius which used the CODEC, but I don't know any details at all. >....The hardware would be capable of DS operation, but I've >never seen suitable drives. The DS drives are identical to the single sided ones, with the obvious exception of the extra head.... ;-) ISTR they're pretty much the same as the 360K drives used in the IBM PC (MPI-40s?) with the exception of the analogue board being removed, you could probably press one of those into service? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 6 11:40:41 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: What is a Sirius? Message-ID: <020d01bec7d1$f62a1d40$0512883e@dangermouse> Hi Tony, >The disk controller board can handle 2 floppy drives, and all >the machines I've seen in the UK had that configuration. I wonder if this is some sort of regional thing here in the UK....I've seen plenty of HD Sirii around the Midlands, roughly twice as many as twin floppy machines in fact? TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 6 11:46:15 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: What is a Sirius? Message-ID: <020e01bec7d1$f6ebe6a0$0512883e@dangermouse> Hi Tony, >Are you sure about the MFM format? I can't see any obvious way to make >the hardwaare do that.... The floppy controller DEFINITELY doesn't do MFM as standard. A chap in the UK Sirius User Group once told me that there was a board in development which would replace the standard floppy controller to allow the machine to read and write IBM format (360K and 1.2Mb) discs. He claimed to have one of the prototypes and that it never made it to the market - probably because the new controller wouldn't read/write the old style GCR discs. :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jul 6 12:03:27 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. Message-ID: <802567A6.005D9AFD.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Long weekend syndrome: Some of these threads are several days old. Please bear with me in this and the next few replies. Glen wrote (in a discussion of the relative significance of ZX80s and PERQs): > What was the first sub-100-pound computer (MK14??) That is indeed the one I had in mind. I think there may have been one or two other kit machines in that price bracket (Nascom?) Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Tue Jul 6 12:13:59 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. Message-ID: <802567A6.005F0BF4.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> Tony wrote (in the discussion of ZX80s and PERQs): > The other point is that many features of today's computers can be traced > back to the PERQ/D-machines, etc. There aren't that many features that > can be traced back to the ZX80. Are you sure the PERQ was very influential. It was more of a commercial machine than the Xeroxes, possibly, but I think the Xerox ideas would have had the same influence on modern computing without the PERQ. >> Sorry, Tony, I must agree with Glen here. Sinclair did not go to the trouble >> that Apple and Microsoft have since expended to separate the user from the >> nitty-gritty of how the machine works. The Sinclair is a far better machine to > > Are you suggesting that PERQ systems did? Heck, you get a microcoding > manual with the machine. The microcode assembler and placer are on the > standard system distribution. Not in the least. > When you get into it, you'll learn a lot more from a PERQ than from a > Sinclair.... Possibly. But you cannot assign more significance to the PERQ because it was a better machine to learn on. Both the PERQ and the ZX80 were far better to learn on than a PC clone. The ZX80 could teach you about microprocessor systems (after a fashion), the PERQ about minicomputers and microcoding. The designers' intentions were probably that the ZX80 was _meant_ to be educational, while the PERQ was meant for experienced computer buffs to design specialist application specific software and peripherals. The ZX80 is certainly more significant in the amount of learning (people educated * some measure of knowledge gained, or rather sum over people educated of amount of knowledge gained) that was done on it. So in some sense the ZX80 is more significant. But In other ways, as Tony pointed out, it is less significant. Swings and Roundabouts. But I agree that the ZX80 does not deserve the inflated colletors' prices... Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jul 6 12:24:50 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: PC form factor Message-ID: <802567A6.005F9010.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Max Eskin wrote: > Hi, > I'm wondering: was the IBM PC the first machine with PSU in the rear > right, drives in the front right, motherboard in rear left, or did they > borrow this design from someone else? I don't know about "someone else", but the IBM System/23 (Datamaster) had exactly that design. The Tektronix 4051 (1975) may have been similar: tape drive to the right of the display, PSU in rear RH corner of case. I have a 4052, which has these two featurs, but no "motherboard" - the processor is 4 boards mounted horizontally in 2 layers covering almost the entire bottom of the case (under PSU, display, tape drive etc.) but to the rear of the keyboard (which occupies the front 20% of the area) The PET had a very close mirror image of the IBM layout. Large transformer in rear LEFT corner, cassette deck to the left of the keyboard in the front, motherboard flat in the bottom to the right of the transformer. Other power supply components on LH side of mobo, except for two big fat capacitors chassis mounted next to the transformer.. Expansion of various sorts was rear right. Hmm. I'll add one more - some DEC boxes. Can't remember what box my 11/10 is in, but the BA11L (?) is similar. Power supply rear right. Backplane vertical next to it. All plug-in cards horizontal rear left (well, sort of rear - they take up almost the whole length of it), front panel across whole of front. Drives in separate (rather larger) boxes, though. Any more examples? Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jul 6 12:30:23 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. Message-ID: <802567A6.00601298.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Tony: > There is a very big difference between being ignorant (and wanting to > learn) and being clueless... I have never flamed anyone for the latter... Did you really mean that? In my experience you flame a lot of people for being clueless. I hope you don't flame ignorant people if they want to learn, though. OT: There is a quotation about that, but I can't remember the exact words or all four verses. Something like: He who knows, and knows that he knows, is wise: follow him He who knows, and knows not that he knows, ?[can't remember this one]? He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is teachable: teach him He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool: shun him. The fourth category seems to be the sort of cluelessness that Tony finds annoying - and who can blame him? Philip. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jul 6 12:47:51 1999 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <802567A6.0061AB85.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> > Well, in my case it was supposed to lead to the development of a really > open hardware platform. > > As for Allison's comment that SPARC is to "high end" I have to disagree. > The SPARC architecture was initally a lot less complicated than the PDP-11 > architecture. It is the funky MMUs that get in the way. I'm reluctant to enter this rather heated debate, but: Has anyone tried to build a SPARC - compatible processor out of standard SSI and MSI chips? Has anyone any thoughts on how easy, or otherwise, it would be? Philip. PS since I'm in here: Dick - it's all very well to choose a bus because it is a popular, de facto standard, but if you don't conform pretty closely to the standard, you may as well not have a standard at all. And what other reasons are there for choosing ISA? Tony - OPEN doesn't mean everything is documented. It means you can connect what you like to it. And know what to do to get it to work. Chuck (wasn't it) suggested having an OPEN hardware architecture for which anyone can build periphereals and CPU cards which, if they conform to the OPEN spec, will be guaranteed to work. I think this is an excellent idea. However, there is nothing wrong with using undocumented cards on the OPEN-spec bus which happen to work because they were designed for the system on which the spec was based. Win-win! Those like you who want a fully documented system can have one. Those like Dick who want to be able to use cheap cards from the 50p bin at that shop in Notting Hill can do that too. As I said, win-win. P. PPS I am concerned aboout the report that the open software movement is losing momentum. Does anyone have any more news on this? I read quite recently that Intel is trying to negotiate with some of the Linux community to get Linux available for their next generation of processors right from the start. The difficulty seems to be NDAs, not surprisingly. I hope they solve it (e.g. no disclosure until launch date, free thereafter). P. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk ********************************************************************** From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Jul 6 13:29:31 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Surplus Attraction? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.16.19990703084519.23070afa@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: >BTW, one of the Mac Plus machines arrived in normal >beige, and the other in a more modern-looking grey. >I didn't know that there were two colour schemes... Three, beige, platinum, and yellow. From mikeford at netwiz.net Tue Jul 6 13:38:11 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: DC Power supply question...duh... In-Reply-To: <199907061331.AA28857@world.std.com> Message-ID: >The rant is unneeded. I'm not a MS lover (VMS is my love) but I also >make a living keeping 40 clients and 3 servers going running W95 and NT >on late 486, p133 and P166 systems, while supporting users and various >programmable control systems. IT does work, it's works amazingly well. I have to agree, it does work amazingly well. What other combination of OS and hardware would allow you to make a living supporting just 40 users. I know first hand people who converted a company from the dark side to linux or Mac OS and found themselves out of a job when the support requirements vanished. IMHO the main reason for MS success is the army of consultants etc. it keeps employed, who know which side of their bread gets buttered on. From dcoward at pressstart.com Tue Jul 6 14:01:21 1999 From: dcoward at pressstart.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:05 2005 Subject: Fwd: Looking for Minisport notebook in AU Message-ID: <4.1.19990706114958.03cd3f00@199.108.34.2> Someone in Australia is looking for a Minisport Notebook. This is too new for me to have in my collection. Reply to louise melov if you can help them out. --Doug >Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 07:02:16 +1000 >To: "Doug Coward" >From: louise melov >Subject: None >Hi Doug, >Remember the Zenith Minisport Notebook with the 2" diskette drive. >Any ideas where I can get one. >I tried posting an wanted ad in eBay. Got some bites, but nothing came of it. >Should I try more auction sites, or is there something better I could do ? >Thanks >Eddie R. ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA ========================================= From elvey at hal.com Tue Jul 6 14:01:26 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly In-Reply-To: <001601bec5bd$3843a280$6e483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <199907061901.MAA27973@civic.hal.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > Nope . . . and I made a "high-tech tie-tack" out of my 8008. I just powered > the box down, pulled the processor out, removed the 8008, bent the pins > around so as not to damage a good silk bib, and super-glued the tack to the > back of it. . . That box, an NBI word processor, used those hard sectored > diskettes with the holes around the outside. EEEK! > > regards, > > Dick Hi I wouldn't worry to much. The 8008, unlike the 4004 wasn't the first anything. The Fairchild F8 was the first 8 bit. The 8008 was claimed to be the first single chip ( first F8 = 2 chip ) but even the 8008 needed a specialize clock generator and bus interface logic to decode and latch states. I would say that the 8008's only claim to fame was that it only made a short run and was replaced with the more long lived 8080. Dwight I wonder how much my working 4004 development system would go for. Not that I wish to sell! Dwight From edick at idcomm.com Tue Jul 6 13:58:36 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <000201bec7e1$bce2c5e0$7f483cd1@fuj03> I've snipped much of the original message, so I hope you can wade through the several threads interwoven under this general (off-) topic in the embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 11:57 AM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) > >> Well, in my case it was supposed to lead to the development of a really >> open hardware platform. >> >> As for Allison's comment that SPARC is to "high end" I have to disagree. >> The SPARC architecture was initally a lot less complicated than the PDP-11 >> architecture. It is the funky MMUs that get in the way. > >I'm reluctant to enter this rather heated debate, but: > >Has anyone tried to build a SPARC - compatible processor out of standard SSI and >MSI chips? > >Has anyone any thoughts on how easy, or otherwise, it would be? > >Philip. > > >PS since I'm in here: > >Dick - it's all very well to choose a bus because it is a popular, de facto >standard, but if you don't conform pretty closely to the standard, you may as >well not have a standard at all. And what other reasons are there for choosing >ISA? > >Tony - OPEN doesn't mean everything is documented. It means you can connect >what you like to it. And know what to do to get it to work. > >Chuck (wasn't it) suggested having an OPEN hardware architecture for which >anyone can build periphereals and CPU cards which, if they conform to the OPEN >spec, will be guaranteed to work. I think this is an excellent idea. > Yes, and then someone jumped in with the notion that everyone who produces hardware for such a bus should make every detail of his product available to whoever wants it, including his competitors, and then, of course, decried the use of custom logic even though the equivalent SSI/MSI version would take a PCB a couple of acres in size . . . well, that's a bit of a hyperbole . Would you believe square meters? > >However, there is nothing wrong with using undocumented cards on the OPEN-spec >bus which happen to work because they were designed for the system on which the >spec was based. Win-win! Those like you who want a fully documented system can >have one. Those like Dick who want to be able to use cheap cards from the 50p >bin at that shop in Notting Hill can do that too. As I said, win-win. > When I suggested that it might be advantageous to be able to use boards which are available from that 50p bin I wasn't thinking of myself. There are people who have complained bitterly about the $2 cost of this and that, and it's their interests I was considering. I use cheap stuff when it's available, but I normally don't have to leave my house to find it. I've actually never had a copy of the ISA spec, nor has it been a problem, though I've designed 20+ boards in use even today for the ISA. My position is that it's not necessary to have anything open. It's generally straightforward to build something that works on the ISA as it is for most any widely used bus. Since it's not in the interest of any commercial manufacturer to build products as open as Tony Duell would like, though it might have worked in the past (that's DISTANT past), it's unlikely we'll see that happen. If you want a bus to use under public scrutiny, it will be only a matter of time before someone finds a way to try to make bit of money that way, and the "open-ness" will fade. > >P. > I'm not the one who is concerned (a) about whether "the bus" is open or (b) about whether it's standard. I find it hard to buy cards which do what I want yet don't adhere to some standard, however, so I buy stuff that's commercially available, or build stuff that's compatible with what I have to run with it. > >PPS I am concerned about the report that the open software movement is losing >momentum. Does anyone have any more news on this? I read quite recently that >Intel is trying to negotiate with some of the Linux community to get Linux >available for their next generation of processors right from the start. The >difficulty seems to be NDAs, not surprisingly. I hope they solve it (e.g. no >disclosure until launch date, free thereafter). > >P. > The reason the open software is losing momentum is that the people who do the work don't mind pitching in but do mind doing the work for people who won't do their own work. These folks are finding that getting paid helps their inclination to do useful work. OTOH, many of those who provided the "momentum" though not willing to do the work, are not willing to pay others for it either. As an example, look at LINUX, and then look at the state of its documentation. Dick From elvey at hal.com Tue Jul 6 14:10:51 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <000c01bec5ca$0c8597e0$4d483cd1@fuj03> Message-ID: <199907061910.MAA27978@civic.hal.com> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > I>There's no reason not to use this type of DMA on a homebrew system. > >There's no reason not to use cards that have the same form factor and > >same connectors and ISA cards. > > > I've seen little reason to use DMA at all when processors generally have the > capacity to move data at the bus bandwidth with block transfer instructions. > It's not a religious issue for me to call the bus whatever seems > appropriate. ISA is the "standard" developed around the PC. The signals > are, for the most part, the obvious ones for ANY microprocessor. The > interrupts are the exception, in that they use the ancient and stupid intel > method, namely positive-going and, as you said, edge sensitive interrupts, > which preclude the more sensible approaches to interrupt management. Hi I thought I'd mention, the edge sensitive was a IBM issue, not specifically Intel. On a side issue. I have connected two ISA cards to a vary non-Intel processor ( NC4000 ). I have a older MFM HD controller and a floppy controller connected. The HD, of course, doesn't need DMA but the FDC normally ran with DMA. Since I had no interrupt on my setup, I was able to dedicate the processor to reading the FDC. The only problem I had was that the processor was a little to fast for the controller chip and the status from the internal state machine required me to put a delay loop in the code. This processor had no block move instructions but ran fast enough that it wasn't an issue. Dwight From red at bears.org Tue Jul 6 14:32:53 1999 From: red at bears.org (R. Stricklin (kjaeros)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Surplus Attraction? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Mike Ford wrote: > >BTW, one of the Mac Plus machines arrived in normal > >beige, and the other in a more modern-looking grey. > >I didn't know that there were two colour schemes... > > Three, beige, platinum, and yellow. The yellow is the result of a beige or platinum Mac sitting for months in a window receiving direct sunlight. The UV degrades the plastic and causes the yellow colour phase you noticed. AFAIK there were no yellow compact macs shipped from the factory. ok r. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 6 14:46:06 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <199907061946.AA04827@world.std.com> Hi. I need help unsubscribing from this list. Here's the deal: Currently, I use the addrfess review@thereviewguide.com to access eMail. I subscribed (and currently use the reply address) tim@thereviewguide.com . However, since then, I no longer have SMTP server that I can access. I write eMAil via telnet and use pine. So when I try to unsubscribe, I gert an error that I can't unsubscribe because I'm not subscribed. I also didn't see a 'reply to' option under pine. So how canI unsubscribe? CAn someone kick me? Any ideas? Thanks, Tim From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 6 15:14:27 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly Message-ID: <199907062014.AA06923@world.std.com> I wouldn't worry to much. The 8008, unlike the 4004 wasn't from "Peter Pachla" at Jul 6, 99 05:38:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2605 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990706/d21c735d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 6 13:42:57 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: What is a Sirius? In-Reply-To: <020e01bec7d1$f6ebe6a0$0512883e@dangermouse> from "Peter Pachla" at Jul 6, 99 05:46:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 773 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990706/bb5651d5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 6 12:33:14 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 XT In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990705171322.21f7dd54@earthlink.net> from "Dave Dameron" at Jul 5, 99 05:13:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 745 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990706/08562e52/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 6 13:07:06 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Advice wanted on Kennedy 9600 and PDP11/23 In-Reply-To: <990706082832.2a2002aa@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Jul 6, 99 08:28:32 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 979 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990706/6148218f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 6 12:42:11 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Fireworks in a power supply... (indirectly off topic) In-Reply-To: from "Paul Thompson" at Jul 5, 99 08:29:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1991 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990706/cee0e3c2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 6 12:55:10 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: More Minix questions In-Reply-To: <19990706002335.A31572@paul.dragontear.org> from "paul yaskowski" at Jul 6, 99 00:23:35 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 948 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990706/b823495c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 6 13:30:24 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. In-Reply-To: <020b01bec7d1$f455ab60$0512883e@dangermouse> from "Peter Pachla" at Jul 6, 99 04:53:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2655 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990706/34585da6/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Tue Jul 6 15:28:54 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly In-Reply-To: <199907062014.AA06923@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199907062028.NAA28010@civic.hal.com> allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: > I wouldn't worry to much. The 8008, unlike the 4004 wasn't > > First the F8 set didn't predate the 8008. It was however the first minimum > chipset part to open the marrket to part list the 3780, 8048 and other > single chips MCUs. I think you are refering to the single chip F8 ( 3780 ). The two chip F8 was considered the first 8 bit micro when I worked at Intel. I don't think history has changed much since then. > > > Not true. It was still being made in the early 80s! I think DEC did > a last time buy in 84 or 85. I meant, new designs. Intel was using the 4040 series parts themselves until about '85 but the part was still long obsolete and not used in new designs. Dwight From PaKing at exchange.ml.com Tue Jul 6 15:30:42 1999 From: PaKing at exchange.ml.com (King, Paul (CICG)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Help, as in I need help too Message-ID: <59523CAF2AA3D111A8AB00805FE67F2EFEE343@ewst03.exchange.ml.com> Hi, Great list, but no can handle the traffic. I unsubscribed several weeks (months?) ago. Then come in this morning and, pow! Some how I'm back on the list. Interesting list, but no can handle the traffic. I sent unsubscribe again and got "You are not subscribed to list classiccmp@u.washington.edu". Gee, thats what I thought. Also got this odd message sent: Sun 7/4/99 7:03 AM Current settings are: ADDRESS = Paul_King@ml.com MAIL = ACK PASSWORD = 931085786 CONCEAL = NO Thanks, Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim Hotze [SMTP:review@RyansPC.ryanspc.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 2:53 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Help > > Hi. I need help unsubscribing from this list. Here's the deal: > Currently, I use the addrfess review@thereviewguide.com to access eMail. > I subscribed (and currently use the reply address) tim@thereviewguide.com > . However, since then, I no longer have SMTP server that I can access. I > write eMAil via telnet and use pine. So when I try to unsubscribe, I gert > an error that I can't unsubscribe because I'm not subscribed. > > I also didn't see a 'reply to' option under pine. > So how canI unsubscribe? CAn someone kick me? Any ideas? > > Thanks, > > Tim From classiccmp at dobyns.com Tue Jul 6 15:51:56 1999 From: classiccmp at dobyns.com (Barry A. Dobyns) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: East Coast Vax 11/750 Available Message-ID: <001501bec7f1$95ade580$adb6f5c0@thinman.dobyns.com> Please respond to the original sender, Martin. I'm just forwarding this on his behalf. He's looking for a "local" collector for what looks like an excellent box. -b -----Original Message----- From: Martin Baechtel To: 'bdobyns@clueless.com' Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 3:30 AM Subject: Vax 11/750 ... snip ... I will sell you my Vax 11/750 for $100. It has 6Mb, A RA80 disk with under 200 hours on it, A DH11-AE, DH11-AA (24 rs232 ports), FP750, DMC11, TU58, two LP11 And a spares kit and if you need a tape drive A 9300 (125 ips 800/1600). If you need any VT200s I have 18 @ $!0. each martin Baechtel w 703 413-8888 06:00 -16:00 edt h 301 330-9079 From musicman38 at mindspring.com Tue Jul 6 16:06:18 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (musicman38@mindspring.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: PC to Mac file transfers Message-ID: <008f01bec7f3$65506320$d480cdcf@server> >>Does anyone here know how I can transfer downloaded files from my PC to my >>newly acquired Mac by floppy disk.. ? >>Any help greatly appreciated.. >>Phil... > Hmmmm, something else >to be aware of, I think you need the 1.44Mb floppy to be able to read FAT >floppies, don't think that works with 800k floppies. The Mac I just got is a "Macintosh Classic II" , and I think it has a 1.44 floppy drive.. It has System 7.1 OS also.. So I will ask again if someone knows how I can teach the Mac to read floppys from my PC, and also the reverse.. I will be downloading software and files from the internet to my PC, and then I need to put them on the Mac Via Floppy disk.. Can anyone help? Phil.. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 6 15:31:04 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. In-Reply-To: <802567A6.00601298.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jul 6, 99 06:30:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 563 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990706/86193507/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 6 15:34:41 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <802567A6.0061AB85.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> from "Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk" at Jul 6, 99 06:47:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 463 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990706/08bd8e95/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 6 15:46:37 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: <000201bec7e1$bce2c5e0$7f483cd1@fuj03> from "Richard Erlacher" at Jul 6, 99 12:58:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3491 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990706/61b951f0/attachment.ksh From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Jul 6 16:44:10 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Advice wanted on Kennedy 9600 and PDP11/23 Message-ID: <990706174410.2b2000aa@trailing-edge.com> >> I'll also point out that NRZI requires a lot tighter physical tolerances >> on the alignment of the tape head (the reason why many drives don't support >> 800 BPI NRZI at all) than 1600 and 6250 BPI (which allow substantial skew >> between the tape channels as part ofthe spec.) If at some point the head >> in your transport had been replaced or knocked around without properly >> being re-aligned you might see something like what you're seeing. >Would you? Most tape head/path adjustments are only really critical for >'interchanageability' -- so that tapes on one drive can be read on >others. If the head is slightly skewed, it will write a skewed tape, but >it will also be expecting to read a tape that's similarly skewed (and >that's what it will get). > >Now, admittedly if they're way out it's not going to work. But then it >probably wouldn't read a 1600bpi distribution either. What you say above is certainly true for tape systems where the same head is used for reading and writing, and most small tape drives fall into this category. But most 7-track and 9-track drives have separate read and write heads, and these are often out of skew with each other. Because the read and write heads are often part of the same assembly, the necessary deskewing can be a combination of both physical adjustment (to get the read head correctly aligned) and electronic timing adjustment (to get the write pulses aligned on tape relative to the read head.) There may be some drives where the write head is physically adjusted and the read timings are electronically adjusted, but this makes the entire procedure much more difficult - what good does a master skew tape do you in doing mechanical alignment of the write heads??? :-) For most drives with electronic deskewing (and the Kennedy 9100 and successors certainly fall in this category) when you get a replacement head it comes with a set of "starting" electronic deskewing settings. I'll gladly fax you the section of a Kennedy maintenance manual that details the procedure, if you're interested. >I would cartainly look for other causes before tweaking head adjustment >screws. Absolutely. Barring physical damage (a good drop onto concrete from a few feet is enough to whack other things out of alignment) I'd look for other causes first. The NRZI data path is different than the PE data path, for one thing. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 6 16:44:58 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly Message-ID: <199907062144.AA16732@world.std.com> < I think you are refering to the single chip F8 ( 3780 ). The Not true. It was still being made in the early 80s! I think DEC did <> a last time buy in 84 or 85. < Message-ID: > Odd... I've got several hundred (no exageration) service manuals here. > All containing schematics, etc. In a lot of cases there's enough > information to build an exact copy of the device from the service manual. > And you know what? I can't think of a single example where a competitor > has done that. Or even used the information to directly make a competing > product. ???!!?!?!!!! Tucked away in just about _every_ manuafacturer's R&D department is a room that contains as many of their competitor's products and manuals as they can get their hands on. If you think that electronic companies do not use this tactic to "improve" their products, you are wrong. Service manuals do a great job of giving up company secrets! These days, the things are generally marked "confidential" and do not leave the buildings. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 6 14:07:06 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. Message-ID: <000001bec7fa$ee2053c0$b15e883e@dangermouse> Hi Philip, >That is indeed the one I had in mind. I think there may have been one >or two other kit machines in that price bracket (Nascom?) I'm pretty sure the Nascom I and II were pitched at something like ?199 and ?275 respectively when launched. The ZX-80 and 81 were ?79 and the Microtan 65 was ?69.95. Can't off-hand think of any others just now (well I can, but I can't remember the prices). TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jul 6 14:31:00 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: What is a Sirius? Message-ID: <000101bec7fa$eef15f60$b15e883e@dangermouse> Hi Tony, >My Sirius is very 'fussy' about the disks it will handle. It won't use >most 360K disks. It will work with '80 track' disks.... Interesting, the only discs mine objects to are, surprise, surprise, 1.2Mb ones. I'm pretty sure that the discs I used in mine were a mixture of 48tpi and 96tpi media, no problems with either type here. >....One day I'll get some suitable drives to experiment with and see if I >can get it to handle DS, or if there are other changes. AFAIK the disc controller is exactly the same for SS/DS drives, IE no firmware changes etc. >Any ideas which version of MS-DOS that would be? I have 1.25 and 2.2 I >think somewhere. OK, I DO have a copy of 1.25 which will access the hard drive. However since it's v1.25 it's only of academic interest - I also have a copy of (I think) DOS 2.11, complete in "Victor" colours, but that refuses to see the hard drive at all. I'm told I need a different version of 2.11 which includes support for the hard drive. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Jul 6 17:07:26 1999 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: References: <802567A6.0061AB85.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <4.1.19990706150545.03d05cd0@mailhost.hq.freegate.com> At 09:34 PM 7/6/99 +0100, Tony wrote: >I was taking 'Open hardware' as being roughly equivalent to open-source >software. We don't call an OS 'open source' if all you get is a >description of the API (even though it allows you to write programs to >run under it). > >The equivalent to 'source code' for hardware is the schematics/PAL >equations/... And as I invented the term in this thread I get to confirm that Tony is using the correct definition :-) "Open Hardware" is hardware that is documented well enough such that anyone can recreate it from the documentation. This includes VHDL specs, PAL equations, etc. --Chuck From elvey at hal.com Tue Jul 6 17:01:56 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly In-Reply-To: <199907062144.AA16732@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199907062201.PAA28039@civic.hal.com> allisonp@world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote: >  > No I meant the multichip F8 (385x) from fairchild. It predates the 8080 > by a tiny bit but not the 8008. The 3850/1 were made with N channel mos > Isoplanar technolgy that was not available when the 8008 (PMOS) was > designed. Hi You could be right here but that isn't what I remember. My old, mumbled up, mind could have got it wrong. ---snip-- > > Kept all the data books I had! I rely on them for dates and tech notes. > The F8 was not a popular chip save for it made cheap systems, horrid > instruction set. It was interesting that many parts of this processor were vary similar to todays RISC designs but as a 8 bitter, it was difficult to use without a good macro assembler that could do much of the house keeping for you. They were used quite a bit for machine control in the early days. Dwight From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jul 6 17:03:26 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Kalok drives contest Message-ID: Despite the griping about the Kalok drives, quite a few people want them. Being rather busy, both will go to the same person, thru a contest. The question: What company was IBM's first "headache" in the disk drive business? The winner pays shipping, and some token amount for my time, box, and tape. Bribery works, too. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 6 17:34:44 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: What is a Sirius? In-Reply-To: <000101bec7fa$eef15f60$b15e883e@dangermouse> from "Peter Pachla" at Jul 6, 99 08:31:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1151 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990706/3304ddf3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 6 18:07:05 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Advice wanted on Kennedy 9600 and PDP11/23 In-Reply-To: <990706174410.2b2000aa@trailing-edge.com> from "CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com" at Jul 6, 99 05:44:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4772 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990707/f8576026/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 6 18:14:27 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jul 6, 99 05:49:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2259 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990707/584c22cf/attachment.ksh From owad at applefritter.com Tue Jul 6 15:28:24 1999 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <199907070030.RAA04225@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> >And as I invented the term in this thread I get to confirm that Tony is >using the correct definition :-) "Open Hardware" is hardware that is >documented well enough such that anyone can recreate it from the >documentation. This includes VHDL specs, PAL equations, etc. Are you guys familiar with the "Open Hardware Certification Program" (I haven't heard it mentioned)? They've got a list of their own requirements at Tom Owad From jpl15 at netcom.com Tue Jul 6 19:52:19 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: RSTS/E <-> RL02s Message-ID: I have gotten RSTS/E V9.1 re-sysgenned on my 11/44 to include support for RL02s, RK05s, RX02s, and a few other things. I have spent some time getting the hardware configured properly. As a result of the new sysgen, I can now init, erase, and mount the RL02s. 'show dev' indicates the RL02 mounted, yet when I try to write to the drive, get a directory, or allocate the drives, I get a 'Device not available' message from RSTS. I have tried mounting them /PUBLIC, tried re-initing them, nothing seems to change. If I try to do anything with them dismounted, I get 'Device not mounted' as you would expect. I have the RSTS Orange Wall coming in a few weeks, until then I am limited to the 'help' facility. The RL02s are working fine, I have the docs and specs and have verified that they are 'OK'. The scratch pack I am using was new and never used before. During the Init process, I specified three-pattern initialization, which completed normally in about 15 minutes, finding and marking three bad blocks along the way. So... anyone have any ideas? What am I doing stupid? What am I *not* doing? Calling all RSTS Gurus.... Cheers John From edick at idcomm.com Tue Jul 6 20:13:48 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <001201bec815$f8420fe0$38483cd1@fuj03> Out bretheren on the Pacific Rim don't share our sense of ethics nor do they revere the notion of intellectual property rights, or patents, for that matter as we do. If you have a product made, say in Korea or Taiwan, it's almost certain you'll have a competitor making the same thing using tooling exactly like yours within a few weeks, and they don't have to earn 50Megabucks in NRE costs. If they never see a working model, as, indeed, they may not, they're going to have a much easier time cloning your product with the schematics and programmable device listings than without, particularly if your product is just a board for a PC. In the latter case, they often don't even know what it does, but just reproduce it and sell it to someone who buys pirate copies of the doc or ships the product without. If it's your product, YOU make the market, and THEY make the profit. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 5:45 PM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) >> >> > Odd... I've got several hundred (no exageration) service manuals here. >> > All containing schematics, etc. In a lot of cases there's enough >> > product. >> >> ???!!?!?!!!! >> >> Tucked away in just about _every_ manuafacturer's R&D department is a >> room that contains as many of their competitor's products and manuals as >> they can get their hands on. If you think that electronic companies do >> not use this tactic to "improve" their products, you are wrong. > >Of course they do. But I won't accept that the service manual gives them >that much help. And I can't think of a case where a service manual has >been the cause of a clone. > >Given a working example of a product you can 'reverse engineer' it to >better than the level of information in the service manual in a couple of >weeks. Using only a DMM and a simple logic analyser. The former to get a >rat's nest of the connections, the latter to assign useful >names/functions to pins on gate arrays. Believe me, it's not hard. > >And I know that a lot of companies do just that to competing products. >I've talked to people who do just that. > An automatic tester can give you a netlist in a day's time, assuming you have a board and someone to program the tester. However, getting from a netlist of a board with, say 1000 components on it to a schematic can take a long time. By that I mean a LONG time. I've seen where it has taken a week to get a correct schematic of a 3"x4" board. Now what about a 9" x 12" one? > >Therefore, the service manual isn't _that_ valuable. Not having it >doesn't stop the above. And from what I've heard (and observed on classic >computers), you would be very unwise to rely on a manual. Errors creep >in. Things are missed out. Important details of things like signal timing >can only be deduced from the product itself. In other words, even with >the manual you are going to want to dismantle and analyse a real machine. > The sevice manual can shorten the time to do the job from weeks to days. That's pretty helpful if you ask me. > >> >> Service manuals do a great job of giving up company secrets! These days, >> the things are generally marked "confidential" and do not leave the >> buildings. > >I will assure you that restricting the service manuals like this doesn't >hinder 'the competition' that much at all. What it does hinder are >non-official service agents, though. That, IMHO is the main reason for >restricting them. And I am not happy with that. > >> >> William Donzelli >> aw288@osfn.org >> > >-tony > From dastar at ncal.verio.com Tue Jul 6 20:23:19 1999 From: dastar at ncal.verio.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Surplus Attraction? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, John Honniball wrote: > BTW, one of the Mac Plus machines arrived in normal > beige, and the other in a more modern-looking grey. > I didn't know that there were two colour schemes... The later Macs were called "Platinum Macs". Apple went to this "Platinum" color scheme on all its machines of the late 80s, including the //e, //c+ and the Macs (and the Imagewriter //). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 05/25/99] From dpeschel at u.washington.edu Tue Jul 6 20:33:40 1999 From: dpeschel at u.washington.edu (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Help In-Reply-To: from "Tim Hotze" at Jul 6, 99 02:52:35 pm Message-ID: <199907070133.SAA12650@saul7.u.washington.edu> > Hi. I need help unsubscribing from this list. Here's the deal: > Currently, I use the addrfess review@thereviewguide.com to access eMail. > I subscribed (and currently use the reply address) tim@thereviewguide.com > . However, since then, I no longer have SMTP server that I can access. I > write eMAil via telnet and use pine. So when I try to unsubscribe, I gert > an error that I can't unsubscribe because I'm not subscribed. I'm replying to the list in case anyone else needs to know the answer. The list-processing software is very inflexible about addresses (you probably knew that already). It tends to extract them automatically from the message headers instead of letting you specify them. And every user has an address that's saved along with some other info like personal name, digest settings, etc. The software does come with an option to support alternate addresses (so you can use another address besides your own but still "be you"). Unfortunately, that option's been disabled by the UW administrators as far as I know. It's easiest to just have me make the change. Let me know what you want to do and I'll do it. There is another way involving a password -- which is saved with your personal settings -- but it's clumsy. Besides, I'd have to send you your password. If you want, I'll be happy to do that (because I never want to be accused of security through obscurity) but I regard it as a waste of time. (Obviously, AFAIK there's no "get my password" request; the "change my password" request would have to come from your old address, and the "change my address" request requires the password!) -- Derek > I also didn't see a 'reply to' option under pine. If you want to add a Reply-To: header, I think it works like this: - Somewhere buried in the configuration settings is a series of options about which headers you want to use. - When writing a message, move up into the header area and hit Ctrl-R for "rich headers". That adds in all the extra headers you configured. If you want to reply to a certain person other than the default, you have to start writing the reply, move up into the header area, and then edit the "To:" line. > So how canI unsubscribe? CAn someone kick me? Any ideas? See above. Send mail to dpeschel@u.washington.edu (= me, personally). -- Derek From max82 at surfree.com Tue Jul 6 19:33:44 1999 From: max82 at surfree.com (Max Eskin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Junk boxes Message-ID: Hi, I'd like to know how people here store their junk parts, as I'm looking for an efficient method myself. For the past several years, I've been keeping them in ziplock bags in a plastic box, which is falling apart, and also is useless for storing anything small. --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Jul 6 20:51:49 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Junk boxes In-Reply-To: from "Max Eskin" at Jul 6, 99 08:33:44 pm Message-ID: <199907070151.SAA10761@fraser.sfu.ca> My junk boxes range from small plastic containers used for little parts, to large cardboard boxes that store boards, assemblies, and other big items. Some other items (such as disk drives, power supplies, backplanes, etc) are stored in various nooks and crannies in the basement and attic. I've inventoried the major components, such as DEC modules and other spares, but the smaller stuff is located by memory. If I need it I can generally recall which box it's in. Kevin > > Hi, > I'd like to know how people here store their junk parts, as I'm looking > for an efficient method myself. For the past several years, I've been > keeping them in ziplock bags in a plastic box, which is falling apart, and > also is useless for storing anything small. > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power > > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jul 6 20:56:20 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Junk boxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hi, >I'd like to know how people here store their junk parts, as I'm looking >for an efficient method myself. For the past several years, I've been >keeping them in ziplock bags in a plastic box, which is falling apart, and >also is useless for storing anything small. > >--Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power I've got a 'Roller Stack of Drawers' that must be about 4' high, with various depths of drawers. It's made out of plastic, and I picked it up cheap at Costco (our local 'warehouse style' store). Works great, I just wish I had room in here for more. Of course most stuff gets tossed in cardboard boxes and stuck in one of my storage units on one of the shelves, or the floor, or on top of a rack, or..... Filefolder boxes are great for cardboard boxes, as they stack well, but unlike boxes you get (hmmm, where do boxes come from) they aren't free. I buy them buy the case. Helpful oddball off-topic storage tip of the day: Video Cassettes fit great in Comic Book boxes. You can fit two layers in a box. Get the mid-sized comic boxes, and they're easy to move, and you can stack them up high. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Tue Jul 6 20:56:06 1999 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Need Info: "LH Research" Power Supply Message-ID: <199907070156.SAA11378@fraser.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: This is a longshot, but I am looking for a schematic (or even a pinout) for an LH Research power supply, model number IM203. It's 120VAC to 5 VDC@8A, 12 VDC and -12 VDC both at 1.5A. There are two terminal strips (unlabelled) on the supply, one with 4 screws (AC input, by inspection), and one with 7 screws for the outputs. It's not working (nothing obvious like rectifier or fuses) and I'm trying to figure out why. I emailed the company without a reply. Any info appreciated, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From a2k at one.net Tue Jul 6 21:02:43 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Junk boxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have several storage methods: For Micros, I built a rack wide enough for each micro to sit next to its disk/tape drives on a shelf and still be usable... there's a composite monitor on top of the rack and a switcher (built out of 2x4s and plywood in about 10 minutes. 4 shelves with brackets to hold spare cables on the front. Looks quite nice, actually. Rather easy to do it you have woodworking skills. I had my miniframe sitting on a table for a while, then back to its floor case. I have my laptop's docking station and a 386 (for my BBS) sitting on the same table. ICs and other small things go in an old Sears parts holder (designed for screws I believe) that I built into my workbench. I have three rubbermaid cabinets for motherboards, expansion cards, disk drives, manuals, etc. Two are around three feet tall and have one shelf in them and one is around 8 feet tall and has 6 shelves IIRC. I built a small shelf for magazines and books next to the large cabinet and is a convenient surface to drop things onto when I come into the room 8-). Cables go into two large plastic boxes that someone gave me a long time ago. Everything else is still in cardboard boxes from when I moved about two months ago. Hope this gives you a few ideas. Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's you isn't it? THE BASTARD OPERATOR FROM HELL!" "In the flesh, on the phone and in your account..." -- BOFH #3 From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jul 6 21:02:36 1999 From: thedm at sunflower.com (TheDM) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: PC to Mac file transfers References: <008f01bec7f3$65506320$d480cdcf@server> Message-ID: <001901bec81c$c9077060$e9297c18@lawrence.ks.us> There is a shareware program called Transmac. Search for yahoo on it, and it will show up. I use it for the same thing, it's great. Or. You can email it to your mac as well, I did that for a while. you will have to use 720k floppies I think, easy enough to tape over the HD hole and format it 720. If you need to transfer and a 720 wont do it, I have enough hardware to get it done, since I use I IIfx as an appletalk gateway over TCPIP. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 4:06 PM Subject: Re: PC to Mac file transfers > >>Does anyone here know how I can transfer downloaded files from my PC to my > >>newly acquired Mac by floppy disk.. ? > >>Any help greatly appreciated.. > >>Phil... > > > Hmmmm, something else > >to be aware of, I think you need the 1.44Mb floppy to be able to read FAT > >floppies, don't think that works with 800k floppies. > > > The Mac I just got is a "Macintosh Classic II" , and I think it has a 1.44 > floppy > drive.. It has System 7.1 OS also.. > > So I will ask again if someone knows how I can teach the Mac to read floppys > from my PC, > and also the reverse.. > > I will be downloading software and files from the internet to my PC, and > then I need to > put them on the Mac Via Floppy disk.. > > Can anyone help? > Phil.. > > From elvey at hal.com Tue Jul 6 21:10:03 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Junk boxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199907070210.TAA28097@civic.hal.com> Max Eskin wrote: > Hi, > I'd like to know how people here store their junk parts, ---snip--- Hi I'm not sure if this is what you want. What I do is have a lot of boxes of all kinds of things. Every now and then, I have to move them around to get at things. When I do, I find all kinds of interesting projects to work on. It isn't efficient but it keeps me busy. There are years of project to play with. Dwight From elvey at hal.com Tue Jul 6 21:14:21 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Need Info: "LH Research" Power Supply In-Reply-To: <199907070156.SAA11378@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <199907070214.TAA28102@civic.hal.com> Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > Hi Gang: > > This is a longshot, but I am looking for a schematic (or even a pinout) > for an LH Research power supply, model number IM203. It's 120VAC to 5 > VDC@8A, 12 VDC and -12 VDC both at 1.5A. Hi I don't know the particular supply you are looking at. The first thing to determine is if it is an analog or switcher. This is most easily determined by the ratio of transformer space to electrolytics. One big transformer and only a couple of large electrolytics and it is analog. Small transformer and a lot of electrolytics ( some rated for high voltage ) and it is a switcher. Where you go from here is related to what you have. Dwight From jpero at cgocable.net Tue Jul 6 17:35:34 1999 From: jpero at cgocable.net (jpero@cgocable.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:06 2005 Subject: Need Info: "LH Research" Power Supply In-Reply-To: <199907070214.TAA28102@civic.hal.com> References: <199907070156.SAA11378@fraser.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <199907070231.WAA06798@admin.cgocable.net> > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:14:21 -0700 (PDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Dwight Elvey > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Need Info: "LH Research" Power Supply > Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > > Hi Gang: > > > > This is a longshot, but I am looking for a schematic (or even a pinout) > > for an LH Research power supply, model number IM203. It's 120VAC to 5 > > VDC@8A, 12 VDC and -12 VDC both at 1.5A. > > Hi > I don't know the particular supply you are looking at. The first > thing to determine is if it is an analog or switcher. > This is most easily determined by the ratio of transformer space > to electrolytics. One big transformer and only a couple of large > electrolytics and it is analog. Small transformer and a lot > of electrolytics ( some rated for high voltage ) and it is a > switcher. > Where you go from here is related to what you have. > Dwight Be careful, I have seen switchers that looks almost like analog per your descriptions and few analog ones looks like complex switcher. Switchers: Only talltale item: solid ferrite core and small, tends to have copper band; switcher. Analog PSU tend to have soft iron lamites and bit heavy and tend to hum like a bee sometimes. Switchers sometimes squeal and usually quiet. Wizard From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Tue Jul 6 21:34:42 1999 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Junk boxes Message-ID: <990706223442.2b2000fc@trailing-edge.com> >I'd like to know how people here store their junk parts, as I'm looking >for an efficient method myself. For the past several years, I've been >keeping them in ziplock bags in a plastic box, which is falling apart, and >also is useless for storing anything small. Indeed, "junk parts" covers everything from tiny surface mount resistors to entire 400-pound tape and disk drives here :-). Small stuff goes in the Akro-Mills style of plastic drawers. I long ago gave up using those dividers that they give you a few of - small parts just slip underneath way to easy. Most all of the hardware collection resides in the same plastic drawers. I've got the photo stuff drawers here pretty well segregated from the random electronic and hardware stuff drawers, but otherwise there isn't a lot of order. Well, that's not entirely true: the IDC connectors are nicely arrayed by type (header, socket, edge connector) and size (10-16-20-26-34- 40-50-60) in a nice matrix. And the 1/4" and 1/2" watt resistors are nicely collected and ordered too. Moderately larger stuff (including even 3.5" disk drives) will fit into the large plastic drawers. Small PC boards generally get put in anti-static bags and then into cardboard "Stor-All" letter file boxes. Larger PC boards go into larger boxes. For instance, Unibus hex-height boards go into an 18" x 12" box. The next step up from PC boards are, of course, rack-mount chassis. These generally get piled on top of each other or on shelves until they're tested and put into a real rack. There's a big pile, probably three hundred pounds worth, of various rack rails here waiting to be matched up with boxes. Standard rack-mount drives (you know, like RL02's, etc.) get stacked on top of each other if they're spares, put in a rack if part of an actual system. Working tape drives always go into racks. Tape drives in the process of being repaired generally occupy their own chunk of floor space. There's usually a delay from repair to mounting in rack until I can convince someone to help me heave it into a rack and stand the rack back up. Random stuff (monitors, keyboards) go on prefab shelves, along with cardboard boxes filled with PC boards. 9-track tapes, 14" removable disk packs, etc., go where God intended them: into Wright Line media shelves intended just for the application. Admittedly there's a few hundred 9-tracks in a pile in the corner waiting either for me to put them to use or go recycle them. There's hundreds of boxes of 8" floppies lined up on shelves underneath my workbenches. TK50's fit very nicely into 9" x 12" cardboard boxes, which are then stacked upon each other. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa@trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927 From elvey at hal.com Tue Jul 6 21:44:33 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Need Info: "LH Research" Power Supply In-Reply-To: <199907070231.WAA06798@admin.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199907070244.TAA28129@civic.hal.com> jpero@cgocable.net wrote: > > Be careful, I have seen switchers that looks almost like analog per > your descriptions and few analog ones looks like complex switcher. > > Switchers: Only talltale item: solid ferrite core and small, tends > to have copper band; switcher. Analog PSU tend to have soft iron > lamites and bit heavy and tend to hum like a bee sometimes. > Switchers sometimes squeal and usually quiet. > > Wizard All true but low voltage outputs rarely have 350-450V electrolytics hanging on them. Dwight From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 6 22:06:01 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: E-bay stupidity! was Re: height of folly Message-ID: <199907070306.AA18118@world.std.com> < You could be right here but that isn't what I remember. Hi, >The Mac I just got is a "Macintosh Classic II" , and I think it has a 1.44 >floppy drive.. It has System 7.1 OS also.... >....So I will ask again if someone knows how I can teach the Mac to read >floppys from my PC, and also the reverse. You need a utility like "Dos Mounter" which lets you read/write MS-DOS format discs; the Classic II has a SuperDrive in it so you'll have no problems if you can find the software. I can't help I'm afraid as my Classic II is up the shoot - the ROM on the internal HD has failed (you don't have the facility to read ROMs do you???). TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From musicman38 at mindspring.com Tue Jul 6 22:51:13 1999 From: musicman38 at mindspring.com (Phil Clayton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: PC to Mac file transfers References: <008f01bec7f3$65506320$d480cdcf@server> <001901bec81c$c9077060$e9297c18@lawrence.ks.us> Message-ID: <3782CEB1.C4A8BE53@mindspring.com> DM, Thank You Very Much !!! The program Transmac works perfectly, transfered my MIDI files to the Mac. Great program... Phil.... TheDM wrote: > There is a shareware program called Transmac. Search for yahoo on it, and > it will show up. I use it for the same thing, it's great. Or. You can > email it to your mac as well, I did that for a while. > > you will have to use 720k floppies I think, easy enough to tape over the HD > hole and format it 720. If you need to transfer and a 720 wont do it, I > have enough hardware to get it done, since I use I IIfx as an appletalk > gateway over TCPIP. > > > The Mac I just got is a "Macintosh Classic II" , and I think it has a 1.44 > > floppy > > drive.. It has System 7.1 OS also.. > > > > So I will ask again if someone knows how I can teach the Mac to read > floppys > > from my PC, > > and also the reverse.. > > > > I will be downloading software and files from the internet to my PC, and > > then I need to > > put them on the Mac Via Floppy disk.. > > > > Can anyone help? > > Phil.. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 206 bytes Desc: Card for Phil Clayton Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990706/abbce9c6/vcard.vcf From af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com Tue Jul 6 22:32:03 1999 From: af-list at lafleur.wfi-inc.com (Aaron Christopher Finney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Junk boxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Max, I got a 3'x3'x2' set of metal drawers, with about 20 drawers in it, from an insurance agency that went out of business. Each drawer will hold about one-and-a-half reams of legal-size paper, or a bunch of cards/case parts/tools/etc. For screws and the like, I got a couple of these fishing-tackle type cases from the hardware store, about 4" high, and they fit nicely in the drawers as well. Aaron On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > Hi, > I'd like to know how people here store their junk parts, as I'm looking > for an efficient method myself. For the past several years, I've been > keeping them in ziplock bags in a plastic box, which is falling apart, and > also is useless for storing anything small. > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power > From stanp at storm.ca Tue Jul 6 23:42:18 1999 From: stanp at storm.ca (Stan Pietkiewicz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Sun hard drive question References: <3.0.1.16.19990610202435.421f79c8@intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3782DAA9.66ED9D3A@storm.ca> Joe wrote: > Hi, > > I have a Sun EXP-2 external hard drive that I picked up. I'm trying to > find the specs on this but none of the SUN hardware FAQs seem to be > working. Can someone tell me what system it's for and the disk capacity and > other particulars? Sorry for the late reply, but .... The EXP-2 (in case you haven't popped the cover off yet) has room for 2 5 1/4 full height SCSI devices in it. The connectors at the back are Sun's SCSI-I version aka DB-50.... I seem to recall Sun 3's and 4xx series machines having SCSI interfaces with DB-50connectors.... Disk capacity will depend on what is in the box ... ;-}) I've seen Sun 370mb, 670mb disks, Exabyte 8200 and QIC-?? 150mb tapes in the bottom...... I've also used them for newer SCSI disks; the power supplies and fans are plenty adequate..... From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jul 6 23:49:08 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Junk boxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I'd like to know how people here store their junk parts, as I'm looking > > for an efficient method myself. For the past several years, I've been > > keeping them in ziplock bags in a plastic box, which is falling apart, and > > also is useless for storing anything small. At least for cables, I find square milk crates to be great. One for 10base2, one for 10baseT, one for fibre, one for HSSI, etc.. One nice thing is they stack very well. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From roblwill at usaor.net Wed Jul 7 03:14:58 1999 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason (the General)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Junk boxes Message-ID: <01bec850$cd73a680$c08ea6d1@the-general> What I use for storing my larger stuff (motherboards, drives, etc.) are Egg boxes (not the ones that the actual eggs are in). Just go to your local Giant Eagle (or whatever's local in your area). Ask them if they have any empty egg boxes that you can use for storing stuff. They _should_ know what you're talking about. They're pretty sturdy, and they usually have handles in them. They'll usually give them to you for free, but I've found that it helps to buy something from the store, then ask the cashier :) Another thing that works _very_ well in damp areas are the wax-covered cardboard 'crates' that they sell fruit and some vegetables from (If you have a bulk store in your area). Those things are almost totally waterproof, but they'll still get 'soggy when wet', but they won't rip through as easily. ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 From jpl15 at netcom.com Wed Jul 7 00:20:10 1999 From: jpl15 at netcom.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Junk boxes Message-ID: My junk box? Very simple, elegant, straightforward: I just use a house. Cheers John PS: The garage works for when the house is full. Like now.... From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 7 00:33:30 1999 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. References: <802567A6.00601298.00@PTECHNOTES02.PowerTech.co.uk> Message-ID: <3782E6AA.80DA7961@rain.org> Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > OT: There is a quotation about that, but I can't remember the exact words or > all four verses. Something like: > > He who knows, and knows that he knows, is wise: follow him > > He who knows, and knows not that he knows, ?[can't remember this one]? is asleep: wake him. > > He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is teachable: teach him > > He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool: shun him. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jul 7 00:36:45 1999 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Powells Technical In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Jul 6, 99 10:20:10 pm Message-ID: <199907070536.WAA02013@shell2.aracnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 797 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990706/e8b3f112/attachment.ksh From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Jul 7 01:28:38 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: PC to Mac file transfers In-Reply-To: <008f01bec7f3$65506320$d480cdcf@server> Message-ID: <199907071034.GAA19456@smtp.interlog.com> On 6 Jul 99 at 17:06, musicman38@mindspring.com wrote: > >>Does anyone here know how I can transfer downloaded files from my PC to my > >>newly acquired Mac by floppy disk.. ? > >>Any help greatly appreciated.. > >>Phil... > > > Hmmmm, something else > >to be aware of, I think you need the 1.44Mb floppy to be able to read FAT > >floppies, don't think that works with 800k floppies. > > > The Mac I just got is a "Macintosh Classic II" , and I think it has a 1.44 > floppy > drive.. It has System 7.1 OS also.. > > So I will ask again if someone knows how I can teach the Mac to read floppys > from my PC, > and also the reverse.. > > I will be downloading software and files from the internet to my PC, and > then I need to > put them on the Mac Via Floppy disk.. > > Can anyone help? > Phil.. > Yes the Classic II does have a 1.44 fdd. Should be no problem. There's a number of programs that will do this. "Transmac" and "MacDisk" come to mind. Both shareware. The real challenge is to get stuff on to the 800 or 400 k macs when you dont have access to another Mac with a Superdisk. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Jul 7 01:28:37 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: PC to Mac file transfers In-Reply-To: <001901bec81c$c9077060$e9297c18@lawrence.ks.us> Message-ID: <199907071034.GAA19484@smtp.interlog.com> On 6 Jul 99 at 21:02, TheDM wrote: > There is a shareware program called Transmac. Search for yahoo on it, and > it will show up. I use it for the same thing, it's great. Or. You can > email it to your mac as well, I did that for a while. > > you will have to use 720k floppies I think, easy enough to tape over the HD > hole and format it 720. If you need to transfer and a 720 wont do it, I > have enough hardware to get it done, since I use I IIfx as an appletalk > gateway over TCPIP. That's only if you need an 800k Mac disk as in the first SE and earlier madels. Transmac will do the trick, altho Macdisk has more bells and whistles. and IIRC the registered version will also do 800 k. Just dug this out: Pierre Duhem Logiciels & Services Duhem, Paris, France http://www.macdisk.com ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Jul 7 01:28:37 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Kalok Drives In-Reply-To: References: <199907051920.PAA18242@smtp.interlog.com> Message-ID: <199907071034.GAA19453@smtp.interlog.com> On 5 Jul 99 at 16:07, Max Eskin wrote: > On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, Lawrence Walker wrote: > >which you have so many of on the left coast. Shows that not only Max and > >Amerikas youth have these antagonistic and destructive tendencies towards > > And who do you suppose I am? That reminds me of a common phrase in news > broadcasts, "The G-8, composed of the world's 7 richest nations (pause) > and Russia" > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power > Sorry Max. I wasn't singleing you out in particular. I was referring to the long thread about trashing computers a while back and the destructive throw-away attitude of so many young people. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Jul 7 05:38:54 1999 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Junk boxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:33:44 -0400 (EDT) Max Eskin wrote: > I'd like to know how people here store their junk parts, Well, for larger items, such as desktop microcomputers, I can recommend a range of wooden shelving from Ikea called "Sten". Ikea is a Scandanavian furniture supplier (mostly in flat-pack form) but I doubt it's available outside Europe. The point about Sten is that it's heavy-duty, cheap, and available in 50cm depth (18 inch) as well as 30cm (12 inch). The deeper version is the one I use for PC-sized stuff. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From ethan_dicks at yahoo.com Wed Jul 7 06:03:18 1999 From: ethan_dicks at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Junk boxes Message-ID: <19990707110318.3294.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Max Eskin wrote: > Hi, > I'd like to know how people here store their junk parts, I have several parts boxes (3 columns, 20+ rows, each box 1"x3"x5") that hold ICs, IDC connectors, resistors, fasteners, relays, etc., for the larger components. For teeny stuff, I use plastic film canisters. For loose SMT parts, I have a box of sample capsules I got from a resistor company - 1" tall, 1/4" I.D., with a plastic window on the end. Cables are sorted by type and stored in xerox paper boxes. I also have this way of cutting and folding former 6"-reel magtape boxes into display storage - cut the short-side top flaps in half, top-to-bottom. Fold a long flap and the adjacent short half-flaps against the inside of the box and glue them in place. Take the two remaining half-flaps and glue the remaining long flap against them. It looks something like this... +-------------------------+ |+-----------------------+| || || || Open hole to inside || |+-----------------------+| +-------------------------+ | | | | | Label area | | | +-------------------------+ I can stack them two or three high on a regular modular shelf, depending. I find them good for high-profile stuff like SCSI supplies, monitor cables and other odd stuff that needs to stay at the top of the heap. Big stuff goes on modular shelving, but we've been over that ground in recent months. For in the computer room, I use the stanchion/standard style of shelving where you screw the vertical strips to the walls and fit in brackets as needed. I have three walls out of four covered with this stuff in my current room, floor to ceiling. It's a lot of space, but I always find a way to fill it. ;-) -ethan -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Jul 6 21:24:42 1999 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Junk boxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990706220354.00aed710@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 08:33 PM 7/6/99 -0400, Max Eskin said something like: >Hi, >I'd like to know how people here store their junk parts, as I'm looking >for an efficient method myself. For the past several years, I've been >keeping them in ziplock bags in a plastic box, which is falling apart, and >also is useless for storing anything small. Wow Max, this is can be considered a broad question which can have an equally broad answer as it depends upon the amount of storage space (shelf, under-workbench, closet, under-bed, etc.), quantity of stuff to store and the type of person who's doing the squirreling away of the parts and/or the exact location of the storage. I use anything which is a sturdy enough container for the subject items -usually corrugated cartons. Heavy, triple-wall cartons (275 lb burst test) for extremely heavy items (transformers, etc.) and normal double-wall types (175-200 lb test) for most other stuff. These were gotten from the receiving department clerk at my ex-employer. We got all kinds of parts and supplies for our manufacturing operations and there were quite a few to choose from of a ggodly range of sizes. Check with grocery stores and other merchants to scrounge cartons if not many can be had from your workplace. Also Rubbermaid storage containers and those from Rubbermaid competitors work well for me too although I have to pay for them. I keep The Special Stuff in them :) What I meant by "the type of person" I wrote above is this: Some folks are a bit more fastidious than me (just ask my wife!) and don't like the 'ugly' corrugated cartons stacked around the place. Or, the only storage is out in the open where all or at least most of one's visitors can see the storage containers (tiny appartments come to mind here). Hence, under these points, the classier looking Rubbermaid type containers work better. I've got half the basement and two garages to stash my stuff and Beverly doesn't care too much what those areas look like just so there is not the appearance of a tornado aftermath ;) Of course, others here have other suggestions based on what they need/want to do and they may chime in with their own experiences. HTH, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association Check our redesigned website! URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Wed Jul 7 03:17:20 1999 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Junk boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199907071220.IAA03565@smtp.interlog.com> On 6 Jul 99 at 20:32, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > Hi Max, > > I got a 3'x3'x2' set of metal drawers, with about 20 drawers in it, from > an insurance agency that went out of business. Each drawer will hold about > one-and-a-half reams of legal-size paper, or a bunch of cards/case > parts/tools/etc. For screws and the like, I got a couple of these > fishing-tackle type cases from the hardware store, about 4" high, and they > fit nicely in the drawers as well. > > Aaron > > On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Max Eskin wrote: > > > Hi, > > I'd like to know how people here store their junk parts, as I'm looking > > for an efficient method myself. For the past several years, I've been > > keeping them in ziplock bags in a plastic box, which is falling apart, and > > also is useless for storing anything small. > > One thing I treasure is my old oak card-file cabinet which also serves as a base for my 3'x4' desk/workbench slab. It's about 36"x30"x18' and has 12 8"x18" 6" high drawers. It has long been filled however and some things I keep in a 5 drawer 5' metal filing cabinet. Screw-top plastic containers, for smaller items like screws etc, tools, repair equipment, drives, PSUs and the like are close-by in an old 2'x3'x5' room divider. The adjustable shelves work well. The rest goes in cardboard boxes. There should be some of these old card-file cabinets around and available since the few people that still use card-files use the smaller cards like the ones in Rollodexes, and the drawers are just a bit too narrow for paper. They once were quite common in many offices and are really ideal for comp. cards. I just use cardboard to cover the irregular bottoms of the drawers. They're usually stackable too. ciao larry lwalker@interlog.com Let us know of your upcoming computer events for our Events Page. t3c@xoommail.com Collectors List and info http://members.xoom.com/T3C From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jul 7 07:50:11 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Junk boxes Message-ID: <199907071250.AA06857@world.std.com> > I'd like to know how people here store their junk parts, as I'm lookin > for an efficient method myself. For the past several years, I've been > keeping them in ziplock bags in a plastic box, which is falling apart, > also is useless for storing anything small. My setup due to volume and diverity of components is more involved. I only have a 10x14 room that I use as my office and the wall space of the garage on one side that I'm willing to fill. In that limited space there are some 30-40 systems, their spares and 30+ years of electronics from my radio and analog days. For some components metal coffee cans where the quantity of one type or class warrents it. Then there are the 30/40/50 drawer cabinates for small parts. I also have the ~10x6x1.5" divided project bins, maybe another 12 of those for small volume parts. There are tubes of ICs enough to fill a 14x14x20" box. Then there are the copy paper boxes with larger peices, boards, cables, disks, old radios, books and whatnot maybe another 12 or so of them. Things like cables I used often and small parts I keep at a hand are in one of three 15x15x16 wood cubes with three drawers and prints are in a larger three drawer that can hold C sized sheets. I also have a lot of book shelf space for books! Any my major systems I used every day are in a wall unit I built (to get 17" depth!) for the PC and four 3100 series vaxen. Oh, and more books. Zip lock bags are good for keeping items that must stay together or that may have many little loose parts. For keeping memories and CPUs that want anti-static a coffee can with lid works fine. A decent shelf unit can really help storage too. Allison From Philip.Belben at pgen.com Wed Jul 7 07:50:23 1999 From: Philip.Belben at pgen.com (Philip.Belben@pgen.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <802567A7.0046ED24.00@WESTD90.pgen.co.uk> >>And as I invented the term in this thread I get to confirm that Tony is >>using the correct definition :-) "Open Hardware" is hardware that is >>documented well enough such that anyone can recreate it from the >>documentation. This includes VHDL specs, PAL equations, etc. > > Are you guys familiar with the "Open Hardware Certification Program" (I > haven't heard it mentioned)? > > They've got a list of their own requirements at > Thanks, Tom, very interesting URL. I wasn't familiar with it, but it is quite close to my view of "open hardware". I would tend to extend this so that not only are devices supplied with enough info to write drivers, but they are also supplied with enough info to connect them to computers using other buses. In many cases this is the same, but it would help to have a definitive list of (say) what features of the bus they need / don't like / can take advantage of. To return to Chuck and Tony's definition, yes, very laudable. But I don't think you should _impose_ the requirement that everyone who builds hardware for the open system should make everything public. And I like Dick's idea of taking an existing standard, in the same way that Linux (for example) took the UNIX system, so that there is already a wide range of stuff available for your system. And users can build as open or closed a system as they like. Dick, I'm not sure what you meant by buying stuff "that does what you want but doesn't conform to some standard" - that seems to be the opposite way round to our discussion, which was about defining an open bus, and whether kit you buy (which _does_ conform to the standard) will work with the bus we've defined, or whether the differences between our open definition and the standard will prevent it. ISA is a standard - of sorts. You can adopt it, and reap the benefit of the standard, because a lot of kit will work with your system. Or you can reject it, and said kit won't work with your system. You seemed to be suggesting the adoption of a partial ISA standard. And some ISA kit will work with it, and some won't. Fine for true open hardware, since you can tell what will and won't before you buy it. But difficult to use the existing ISA kit with your open bus, since it is the existing ISA kit that is not open, so you can't easily tell whether the ISA card you had in mind will work on the modified bus. So why bother with ISA at all? On this point I agree with Tony. Edge connectors in slots, while fine for the volume market, doesn't help the homebrew hobbyist. So if we choose an existing bus on which to base our new open bus, choose one with indirect connectors, like VME. True, few hobbyists will homebrew _everything_, but by the Chuck/Tony definition of open, they should be able to, if they wish. A system aimed at homebrew also makes it easier for designers to publish designs which other people then build. Kits can be made of standard parts and not require custom PCBs. And when the bugs have been ironed out, then the PCB design can go off to the mass production plant... Philip. From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Jul 7 03:29:56 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Junk boxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Hi, >I'd like to know how people here store their junk parts, as I'm looking >for an efficient method myself. For the past several years, I've been >keeping them in ziplock bags in a plastic box, which is falling apart, and >also is useless for storing anything small. I just bought a 1000 3x5 pink plastic bags (static dissipation), and my current plan is to put all the common parts I find, ie all the good chips off a bad motherboard etc., into a bag then write something meaningfull with a magic marker and tape it closed. My next level up of storage are plastic shoeboxes, sweater boxes, storage boxes, up to the big daddy those flip lid storage containers. My goals are to retain ID of what is in the bag, don't lose bits, and don't let things get tangled again. I am a firm believer in fairly large "misc" boxes that I can just stir around in to find items of a generic variety. From go at ao.com Wed Jul 7 10:23:17 1999 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Powells Technical In-Reply-To: <199907070536.WAA02013@shell2.aracnet.com> References: Message-ID: <4.1.19990707081312.05082110@office.ao.com> At 10:36 PM 7/6/99 -0700, you wrote: >I assume this is of interest to more than just those of us in the Portland >Area. The news tonite had something about Powells Technical Books having a >fire. Unfortunatly I missed almost all of it, so I don't have any details. From KFergason at aol.com Wed Jul 7 10:51:53 1999 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Junk boxes Message-ID: <6e3c1727.24b4d199@aol.com> In a message dated 7/7/99 5:39:46 AM Central Daylight Time, John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk writes: For the Texans here, Houston has an Ikea store. Coincidance. I just spent $219 this past weekend for a set of Sten shelving. 9ft by 6ft with a corner piece. 4 shelves high. 20" deep. pain in the butt to put up. Works good. << > I'd like to know how people here store their junk parts, Well, for larger items, such as desktop microcomputers, I can recommend a range of wooden shelving from Ikea called "Sten". Ikea is a Scandanavian furniture supplier (mostly in flat-pack form) but I doubt it's available outside Europe. >> From steverob at hotoffice.com Wed Jul 7 10:58:29 1999 From: steverob at hotoffice.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Junk boxes Message-ID: <01BEC870.07D75F00.steverob@hotoffice.com> On Wednesday, July 07, 1999 8:50 AM, Allison J Parent [SMTP:allisonp@world.std.com] wrote: > I'd like to know how people here store their junk parts, as I'm lookin > for an efficient method myself. For the past several years, I've been > keeping them in ziplock bags in a plastic box, which is falling apart, > also is useless for storing anything small. I like ziplock bags for small components, hardware, etc... They keep everything sorted, they keep dust and dirt out, you can see through them, and most importantly they're cheap. I dump the baggies with similar items in to cardboard boxes and put them on shelves in a closet. Currently, I have three closets that are FULL of this kinda stuff. My refrigerator just went bad and I'm thinking about making a storage "locker" out of it. I'm gonna paint it to match my equipment racks, and put different handles on it to make it look more "industrial". It has built in shelving, it's sealed against dust, it's on casters so it's easy to move, and it's already paid for... :-) The hardest items to store are "books" and "documentation". They take up a lot of room, they're heavy, they're very sensitive to handling, and they're often irreplacable. Books deserve the best possible treatment and need to be kept on good quality book shelves. Prints, booklets, and other small documents go in hanging folders in a filing cabinet. Complete systems go in the garage / workshop. This 14' X 25' building is where I keep the goodies. Everything gets tossed in to a spare bedroom. I use the (RSS) Robertson sorting system to keep things organized. I just throw it in a pile and it magically sorts it's self out. Whenever I go looking for something, it'll ALWAYS be on the bottom... Steve Robertson - From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jul 7 11:00:20 1999 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Junk boxes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990707110020.010754c0@vpwisfirewall> At 11:38 AM 7/7/99 +0100, John Honniball wrote: >Ikea is a Scandanavian furniture >supplier (mostly in flat-pack form) but I doubt it's >available outside Europe. Actually, the typical Ikea store in the USA is larger than several European countries. They have their own restaurants, day care centers, transportation systems, etc. - John From mikeford at netwiz.net Wed Jul 7 11:19:26 1999 From: mikeford at netwiz.net (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Junk boxes In-Reply-To: <6e3c1727.24b4d199@aol.com> Message-ID: >Coincidance. I just spent $219 this past weekend for a >set of Sten shelving. 9ft by 6ft with a corner piece. 4 shelves >high. 20" deep. pain in the butt to put up. I'll put in my 2 cents in favor of commercial shelving. Often called boltless due to assembly requiring only a rubber mallet, brand names are Rapid Rack, Riveteer, and a couple similar but imcompatible brands. Pick a brand and stick with it, unless you can buy complete units in another brand "exactly" how you want them, since the pieces don't quite fit. I have four units right now, and the one the fits between the garage door and wall of the garage is a good example. 6 feet tall, 6 feet wide, and 24 inches deep, the two bottom shelves each have (8) model 9595 servers on them, the third shelf misc computers and parts, and the top has a row of monitors. Well over 1000 lbs for the unit, and if shelves weren't a continuous span (ie a middle post was required) I could only fit 6 servers per shelf instead of 8. My biggest unit is 9 ft tall, 8 ft wide, and 24 inches deep. It holds a BUNCH, but the climb up to the top shelf makes me chicken to put really heavy stuff that high. If you shop around this stuff is cheaper than the consumer shelving, and better I think. From a2k at one.net Wed Jul 7 12:14:35 1999 From: a2k at one.net (LordTyran) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Junk boxes In-Reply-To: <01BEC870.07D75F00.steverob@hotoffice.com> Message-ID: > My refrigerator just went bad and I'm thinking about making a storage > "locker" out of it. I'm gonna paint it to match my equipment racks, and put Careful. Refridgerators tend to begin smelling really strange after they've been unplugged for a few days.. you should smell the one we use as a prop in the drama dept. at school. It's been tehre since before the current drama head was there (20+ years). A lovely avacado green.. original! Kevin From edick at idcomm.com Wed Jul 7 13:27:52 1999 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) Message-ID: <001401bec8a6$83126620$0400c0a8@winbook> please see embedded comments below; Dick -----Original Message----- From: Philip.Belben@pgen.com To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 6:59 AM Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of) > > >>>And as I invented the term in this thread I get to confirm that Tony is >>>using the correct definition :-) "Open Hardware" is hardware that is >>>documented well enough such that anyone can recreate it from the >>>documentation. This includes VHDL specs, PAL equations, etc. >> >> Are you guys familiar with the "Open Hardware Certification Program" (I >> haven't heard it mentioned)? >> >> They've got a list of their own requirements at >> > > >Thanks, Tom, very interesting URL. I wasn't familiar with it, but it is quite >close to my view of "open hardware". I would tend to extend this so that not >only are devices supplied with enough info to write drivers, but they are also >supplied with enough info to connect them to computers using other buses. In >many cases this is the same, but it would help to have a definitive list of >(say) what features of the bus they need / don't like / can take advantage of. > >To return to Chuck and Tony's definition, yes, very laudable. But I don't think >you should _impose_ the requirement that everyone who builds hardware for the >open system should make everything public. And I like Dick's idea of taking an >existing standard, in the same way that Linux (for example) took the UNIX >system, so that there is already a wide range of stuff available for your >system. And users can build as open or closed a system as they like. > >Dick, I'm not sure what you meant by buying stuff "that does what you want but >doesn't conform to some standard" - that seems to be the opposite way round to >our discussion, which was about defining an open bus, and whether kit you buy >(which _does_ conform to the standard) will work with the bus we've defined, or >whether the differences between our open definition and the standard will >prevent it. > What I meant by that comment was that if you decide on one standard, but a function you feel you have to have doesn't, or you don't want to buy the available hardware for some reason, e.g. cost, particularly in the case where you have another potential solution, e.g. you have something that can be made to work, you shouldn't be prevented by the standard, or by the lack of information, from adapting what you want to use. Likewise, if you like the majority of the signal set on ISA, except you don't like the way interrupts work, you should be able to make that suit you. Then, supposing you would also like to use a different interconnection arrangement, say, the one used with VME, perhaps, then that should be OK too. The bad thing about any standard is two-fold (at least). First, it prevents integration errors by ensuring tbat you can plug whatever adheres to the standard into a standard system and expect it to work, and secondly, itmakes sure that maufacturers build cards that will work with others' cards. Unfortunately, the resulting debate in standards committee meetings often doesn't concern itself with how well something works as much as which mfg has the largest installed base of "nearly" standard hardware. The problem, you see, is that in a SCSI standards committee, a single vendor, e.g. ADAPTEC, with enough installed base to overwhelm the market can defeat the whole standard. One point I was driving at was that since the interrupt scheme on ISA is unpalatable to many, it can be ignored so long as cards being used don't exploit that feature. There are plenty of video cards which don't use it. There are simple ways of converting cards which do use it to use the opposite sense if that's deemed appropriate. It's still easier to patch an existing board than to reinvent the whole thing. > >ISA is a standard - of sorts. You can adopt it, and reap the benefit of the >standard, because a lot of kit will work with your system. Or you can reject >it, and said kit won't work with your system. You seemed to be suggesting the >adoption of a partial ISA standard. And some ISA kit will work with it, and >some won't. Fine for true open hardware, since you can tell what will and won't >before you buy it. But difficult to use the existing ISA kit with your open >bus, since it is the existing ISA kit that is not open, so you can't easily tell >whether the ISA card you had in mind will work on the modified bus. So why >bother with ISA at all? > It would not be my choice to adapt cards about which I didn't know enough to accomplish the task. However, given that much is known about ISA, including its flaws, I find that signal set a good starting point. If you switch the connector to be a DIN 41612 type, it's still a decent signal set, and if you invert the interrupts, and perhaps make them level sensitive rather than edge triggered, it might even be better. It's just that THIS PARTICULAR existing "convention" if not standard, will lead to much easy-to-adapt hardware, thereby leading to a useable test environment virtually right away, while with other types, more effort is needed. > >On this point I agree with Tony. Edge connectors in slots, while fine for the >volume market, doesn't help the homebrew hobbyist. So if we choose an existing >bus on which to base our new open bus, choose one with indirect connectors, like >VME. True, few hobbyists will homebrew _everything_, but by the Chuck/Tony >definition of open, they should be able to, if they wish. > >A system aimed at homebrew also makes it easier for designers to publish designs >which other people then build. Kits can be made of standard parts and not >require custom PCBs. And when the bugs have been ironed out, then the PCB >design can go off to the mass production plant... > >Philip. > > > > > From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jul 7 14:47:11 1999 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: OT: A call to arms (sort of) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Of course they do. But I won't accept that the service manual gives them > that much help. And I can't think of a case where a service manual has > been the cause of a clone. Not clones - that is lawsuit country - but certainly improvements. Just about every other week *EE Times* has an article on company X dragging company Y to court for stealing technology. Documentation is often the main bit of evidence, including, yes, service manuals for the techs. > Given a working example of a product you can 'reverse engineer' it to > better than the level of information in the service manual in a couple of > weeks. Using only a DMM and a simple logic analyser. The former to get a > rat's nest of the connections, the latter to assign useful > names/functions to pins on gate arrays. Believe me, it's not hard. A "couple of weeks" can make or break a product, back then and today. Time to market is often the overriding factor in any engineering project. Shaving off some time by snatching a manual and getting clues, sometimes just subtle hints, can make a lot of difference. Also, engineers are not cheap, and having a small team buzzing out circuit boards is not exactly cost effective. Also, there are lots of things that show up in service manuals that are completely non-obvious to someone examining a board. Diagnostic ports, used during the manufacturing process, are sometimes are very well hidden in the normal vias of a circuit board. One thing a manufacturer does not want a competitor to get at is the JTAG scan ports, as they really let someone look deep into a machine. Another thing found in service manuals are the tricks that allow technicians and engineers to crack passwords and use backdoors. Imagine the fun a company would have trying to patch a PR disaster because some high school kid keeps fooling around with spanning trees and access lists on switches and routers, with techniques available in the back of a manual. There is a lot of sensitive information in these service manuals that can really hurt a company if it falls into the wrong hands. The easiest solution, and probably the best as well, is to restrict the manuals. > Therefore, the service manual isn't _that_ valuable. Not having it > doesn't stop the above. And from what I've heard (and observed on classic > computers), you would be very unwise to rely on a manual. Errors creep > in. Things are missed out. Important details of things like signal timing > can only be deduced from the product itself. In other words, even with > the manual you are going to want to dismantle and analyse a real machine. Oh yes, but lots of clues and shortcuts can be found in the pages. > I will assure you that restricting the service manuals like this doesn't > hinder 'the competition' that much at all. What it does hinder are > non-official service agents, though. That, IMHO is the main reason for > restricting them. And I am not happy with that. No. Companies simply do not care about "non-official" service agents anymore because there are not that many of them to worry about, and the companies can always clobber these "non-officials" on replacement parts costs, technical support, and the continuation of warranties. There is a very good reason why one of the first pages in any military electronics technical manual is devoted to destruction of the equipment and the manual in an emergency. War and the market aren't much different. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 7 14:38:32 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Need Info: "LH Research" Power Supply In-Reply-To: <199907070156.SAA11378@fraser.sfu.ca> from "Kevin McQuiggin" at Jul 6, 99 06:56:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1381 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990707/f50c8765/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jul 7 15:33:39 1999 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Random ramblings... Message-ID: 1) For anyone needing to make travel plans or prepare items for exhibit - there are now less than three months until the start of VCF III! 2) Down that same track, (since I just had the above revelation a few days ago) there are some new pictures on the 'Computer Garage' website that I've been shooting as I'm going thru machines and systems... "Field stripping the RX02" makes up one quick little photo set... There are others as well. 3) And for those of morbid curiosity (or those just in need of a good theme for a nightmare B^} ) Hidden in the pages (but not too hidden) of the 'Garage' are some shots from within (one of) the 'Computer Garage' Warehouses! Sorry, no panoramas from within the 'Garage' itself... Yet! -jim --- jimw@computergarage.org The Computer Garage - http://www.computergarage.org Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 >>> Coming soon to www.computergarage.org - the CBBS/NW on-line archives >>> Coming to VCF III (2-3 October 1999) - CBBS/NW live! From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 7 07:51:56 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. Message-ID: <000001bec8b8$91fa7300$cf4b883e@dangermouse> Hi Glen, I'll keep this short as we're heading MAJORLY off topic here.... >Sorry to hear it. 95 OSR2.x is actually a bit more stable than the >earlier versions, so if you're running something prior to 2.0 you >may want to upgrade again (can't believe I'm saying this . . .) On my home system I've found little difference in terms of stability between OSR1 and 2 (I mainly run Office, IE4 and Frontpage, as well as some emulators), but having supported WIn95 systems in two different jobs I'd not disagree with that statement.... >> I'd be using Linux right now if I could get versions of the software >>I need to use for it. > >They'll be here soon, we hope . . . Quite, I've got some (little) experience with various flavours of Unix and it would definitely be my OS of choice if I could get the software I need for it....it's very frustrating. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 7 08:08:04 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. Message-ID: <000101bec8b8$94dcf980$cf4b883e@dangermouse> Hi Tony, >> The thing about Sinclair machines is that they are masterpieces of >>design.... > >I am not convinced they are good designs. We've had this discussion >before on this list, but I will never be convinced that leaving out a >couple of chips to save a few pence is a good thing if the result doesn't >work properly. Quite, but my point was that whoever designed them (Sir Clive or whoever) REALLY understood what they were doing! Although that said a lot of the design ideas could have (probably were) cribbed from books like "The Cheap Video Cookbook" etc.... >Never had a System 1, always wanted one. I've got some of the later >Systems in racks, including the 6809 version... Likewise, I'd love to get my hands on a System 1 - I've never even seen one "in the flesh". I wasn't aware that they developed the "System 1" further, I'd always thought/assumed that Acorn quietly dropped the system after the "Atom" popped up. >I have the tape interface. I think I saw the PROM programmer at an >electronics show, so at least a prototype existed. Never saw any of the >others. One of my teachers at school was the only other person I've known who had a Mk14 from new. I'm pretty sure he never managed to get any of the add ons other than the tape interface, though ISTR he'd ordered the VDU and PROM programmer. I think he ended up cancelling the orders due to non-delivery, the launch of the VDU board was delayed several times ISTR. :-( TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jul 7 08:19:02 1999 From: peter.pachla at vectrex.freeserve.co.uk (Peter Pachla) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: What is a Sirius? Message-ID: <000201bec8b8$95cf96e0$cf4b883e@dangermouse> Hi Tony, >Right. Again, it should be easy enough to do that. Hack an 8272 or >something in place of the GCR path, keep the motor control hardware >that you've already got. Yes, shouldn't be too tricky. IIRC the Sirius User Group were talking about trying to get permission to duplicate the new floppy controller but I don't think they pursued the project. After all they'd probably only sell a few boards to club members, and how many people would want them if it meant not being able to access their existing discs? Hmmm, I think it may be time for me to dig up the 'phone number for the group and renew old acquaintances; it's been about 5 years since I had any real contact with them now. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla@virgin.net | peter.pachla@vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla@wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk -- From bill at chipware.com Wed Jul 7 16:13:27 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: IMSAI (moving along...) Message-ID: <000b01bec8bd$8e534ab0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> So I've identified and corrected one problem with the front panel and now the address lights and switches seem to respond correctly to EXAMINE, EXAMINE NEXT and DEPOSIT NEXT. For those who might be curious... U15 (74ls04) had apparently been replaced several times. In particular, the area around the pad for pin 11 was rather charred. There seemed to be some conductivity between pin 11 and one of its neighbors. I desoldered U15 and soldered in a socket. Then cut the trace about 1/8" from pin 11, reinserted U15 with pin 11 bent out and "air wired" pin 11 to a convenient hole-through a little further down the trace. Much better! So now, on to the data lights. With no memory board installed, I get 0xFF (all 8 data lights on) for any address. This is correct behavior, is it not? I then put in the INDUSTRIAL MICRO SYSTEMS 8K MEMORY BD. Checking each 4K (0x0000, 0x1000, ..., 0xE000, 0xF000) I still get nothing but 0xFF. Try DEPOSITing 0x00 at each 4K, still nothing but 0xFF. On the board, J1 is jumpered at 0 (choices being 0-7). I assume that this is the bank number and that would make this board 8K starting at address 0. J2 is open (I have no idea what this means). By the way... on the front panel, when powered up, the PROGRAMMED OUTPUT lights are all on. Is this correct? Thanks, Bill From fauradon at mn.mediaone.net Wed Jul 7 16:50:30 1999 From: fauradon at mn.mediaone.net (Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Fw: FS Next stuff in Minneapolis Message-ID: <001f01bec8c2$bc343020$0100a8c0@mn.mediaone.net> As usual I don't know the guy, Contact him directly. I could help pick up and ship if that's a problem with the guy. Francois ----- Original Message ----- From: william rice Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.marketplace Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 3:50 AM Subject: FS Next stuff in Minneapolis > I have a bunch of next stuff that must go > 030 cube boards $25 (2) > 25mhz '040 cube 16/1gig with monitor and cable and keyboard $250 > 25mhz 040 color slab 24/380 17" sony monitor soundbox, cables, > keyboard $250 > next laser best offer (3) > external hdd 1gig $25 (2) > black dove fax $5 (1) > > sgi iris 3130 complete $50 > > all these are for sale in minneapolis.. I will ship if I have to tho... > make reasonable offers if you dont like the price.. I just want to get > rid of this stuff > > bill > From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Jul 7 16:56:56 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Junk boxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001f01bec8c3$a135fb40$35711fd1@5x86jk> I use old tool boxes (plastic and metal), shoe boxes, and jewelry boxes. John > -----Original Message----- > From: CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu > [mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Max Eskin > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 7:34 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Junk boxes > > > Hi, > I'd like to know how people here store their junk parts, as I'm looking > for an efficient method myself. For the past several years, I've been > keeping them in ziplock bags in a plastic box, which is falling apart, and > also is useless for storing anything small. > > --Max Eskin (max82@surfree.com) > http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - > Knowledge is Power > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Jul 7 17:37:51 1999 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: New finds last couple days Message-ID: <002801bec8c9$58abfa40$35711fd1@5x86jk> Good Day All over the last few days a few items have come my way here's a short list: 1. Mattel Aquarius and extras' all in their boxes 2. Apple GS with WOZ (so called limited edition),2 3.5 drives and 1 5 1/4 drive, KB and mouse 3. Several old manuals and mag's 4. digital VAXstation 4000/60 with built-in cd-rom drive no KB or monitor with it. 5. Mac LCIII just the cpu no kb or other parts with it. 6. 10 brand new unopened copies of Win 3.1, Access 2.0, ProComm Plus, and other software all brand new unopened. (I will be putting most of this up for sale at $5 a box plus shipping). 7. About 15 Atari cartridges, have list them yet but I notice a few that I had never seen before. Well that's the short as some of the stuff is not yet 10 years old. Keep computing John I also saw were ZOOM acquired all of Hayes Corp. assets and name, another great one dies. I wonder what this does for Hayes items that we all collect ? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 7 17:28:01 1999 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Article about collecting in Antique Trader. In-Reply-To: <000101bec8b8$94dcf980$cf4b883e@dangermouse> from "Peter Pachla" at Jul 7, 99 02:08:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1612 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19990707/107bbaab/attachment.ksh From elvey at hal.com Wed Jul 7 18:29:22 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: IMSAI (moving along...) In-Reply-To: <000b01bec8bd$8e534ab0$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <199907072329.QAA01456@civic.hal.com> "Bill Sudbrink" wrote: > I then > put in the INDUSTRIAL MICRO SYSTEMS 8K MEMORY BD. Hi Bill If this is a dynamic memory board it may not work. None of the dynamic boards, I tried, seemed to work from the front panel. I don't know if they do work under normal CPU access as I didn't try it. The output lights are at address 0FFh and the lights go on when you write 0's and off when you write 1's. I don't recall if they are all lit at power on or not. I still don't know how a ls04 could have caused a swap of your data lines?? Dwight From Jgzabol at aol.com Wed Jul 7 18:34:46 1999 From: Jgzabol at aol.com (Jgzabol@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: FW: Symbolics 3600 and 3670 available Message-ID: Hi there, I have run across two interesting machines: Symbolics 3600 Symbolics 3670 built for AI applications. Since they are not in my line, here is the telephone number of the person who needs to remove them WITHIN THE NEXT TEN DAYS (612) 379 - 7343 (Minneapolis, MN). Please contact him directly, not me; I am simply forwarding this information. These are NOT personal computer type systems, they are BIG !!!! (Mainframe class). These are LISP machines. Happy collecting John G. Zabolitzky From bill at chipware.com Wed Jul 7 18:56:52 1999 From: bill at chipware.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: IMSAI (moving along...) In-Reply-To: <199907072329.QAA01456@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <000c01bec8d4$62927560$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> > If this is a dynamic memory board it may not work. No it is 8K of 2102 static. > None of the dynamic boards, I tried, seemed to work > from the front panel. This front panel has the DRAM modification (IMSAI number ECN 77-0039) which apparently changes how S-100 pin 71 is interpreted. > I still don't know how a ls04 could have caused a > swap of your data lines?? No no, didn't cause the swap. The data cable _was_ backwards. Bit 7 (the high bit) was "sort of" (about 5K ohms) grounded to a neighboring pin at U15 which was often low. This resulted in that bit almost always being 0. When the cable was backwards, you would get an 0xC2 (JNZ) instead of an 0xC3 (JMP) which would work, with the exception of the address being reversed by the byte and the "low" (really high) address bit always zero. If you put the data cable in the right way, you got an 0x43 (invalid instruction) which did not put an address on the address bus and gave the impression that random lights were flashing on each press of the EXAMINE switch. The system is still flakey as heck. With my limited time, resources and knowledge it might take me a couple of years to get it working and stable. I'm considering asking Jim Willing what he would charge to get it put back together. Bill From jwebste3 at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 7 21:52:31 1999 From: jwebste3 at bellsouth.net (JAMES WEBSTER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: New finds last couple days References: <002801bec8c9$58abfa40$35711fd1@5x86jk> Message-ID: <3784126F.CEC@bellsouth.net> John, My first EMail/message on this forum. :-) I might be interested in some of the software in item #6, when you get it posted. I had not heard about Zoom acquiring Hayes. Along with Hayes (the modem pioneer) went Cardinal Technologies, which was owned by Hayes. We have both Hayes and Cardinal drivers in our Drivers Archive starting here: http://www.driverzone.com/drivers/ I moderate the messageboard at The DriverZone. Some more Cardinal drivers may be obtained here: http://members.cnx.net/reboot/drivers.htm Cardinal, Hayes, and Practical Peripherals drivers here: http://www.practical.com/drivers.html Jim Webster John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > Good Day All over the last few days a few items have come my way here's a > short list: > 1. Mattel Aquarius and extras' all in their boxes > 2. Apple GS with WOZ (so called limited edition),2 3.5 drives and 1 5 1/4 > drive, KB and mouse > 3. Several old manuals and mag's > 4. digital VAXstation 4000/60 with built-in cd-rom drive no KB or monitor > with it. > 5. Mac LCIII just the cpu no kb or other parts with it. > 6. 10 brand new unopened copies of Win 3.1, Access 2.0, ProComm Plus, and > other software all brand new unopened. (I will be putting most of this up > for sale at $5 a box plus shipping). > 7. About 15 Atari cartridges, have list them yet but I notice a few that I > had never seen before. > Well that's the short as some of the stuff is not yet 10 years old. Keep > computing John > > I also saw were ZOOM acquired all of Hayes Corp. assets and name, another > great one dies. I wonder what this does for Hayes items that we all collect > ? From elvey at hal.com Wed Jul 7 20:54:00 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: IMSAI (moving along...) In-Reply-To: <000c01bec8d4$62927560$bb88e9cf@yamato.chipware.com> Message-ID: <199907080154.SAA01507@civic.hal.com> "Bill Sudbrink" wrote: > > If this is a dynamic memory board it may not work. > > No it is 8K of 2102 static. > ---snip--- > > The system is still flakey as heck. With my limited time, > resources and knowledge it might take me a couple of years > to get it working and stable. I'm considering asking Jim > Willing what he would charge to get it put back together. Hi Bill You should continue on it. There was an issue with what write signal that the RAM used. It seems like I remember that my static boards had a switch to select -write or PWR. One is directly from the front panel and the other is from the processor board. This is most likely the trouble. Notice that the phase is inverted. Dwight From bsa3 at cornell.edu Wed Jul 7 21:03:18 1999 From: bsa3 at cornell.edu (Brad Ackerman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: Free: CDS Unistar, NeXT docs Message-ID: <19990707220317.A5557@cornell.edu> The following items are free to whomever wants to pay for shipping or pick them up either in Ithaca (whenever) or Baltimore (Mariott Hunt Valley, this weekend). * CDS Unistar, one floppy, HD, a bunch of Data Translation DA/AD cards, keyboard. No docs or discs, and the /usr partition is wiped, so this won't do much good unless you already have one. I can supply a copy of the manual for the same vendor's ISA card of like vintage, if it will help. Works, at least to the extent that I can test it with what's in /bin. * NeXTstep v2.1 upgrade package. Includes OS on floptical. * NeXT manuals, all in one box set: Technical Summaries Supplemental Documentation Writing Loadable Kernel Servers Operating System Software Sound, Music, and Signal Processing: Reference Sound, Music, and Signal Processing: Concepts As always, first come, first served. Taking all of these items off my hands simultaneously is welcome, but not necessary. -- Brad Ackerman N1MNB "...faced with the men and women who bring home bsa3@cornell.edu the pork, voters almost always re-elect them." http://skaro.pair.com/ -- _The Economist_, 31 Oct 1998 From elvey at hal.com Wed Jul 7 21:31:42 1999 From: elvey at hal.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: New finds last couple days In-Reply-To: <3784126F.CEC@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <199907080231.TAA01610@civic.hal.com> JAMES WEBSTER wrote: > John, > > My first EMail/message on this forum. :-) > I might be interested in some of the software in item #6, > when you get it posted. > I had not heard about Zoom acquiring Hayes. Along with > Hayes (the modem pioneer) went Cardinal Technologies, > which was owned by Hayes. > We have both Hayes and Cardinal drivers in our Drivers > Archive starting here: http://www.driverzone.com/drivers/ > I moderate the messageboard at The DriverZone. > Some more Cardinal drivers may be obtained here: > http://members.cnx.net/reboot/drivers.htm > Cardinal, Hayes, and Practical Peripherals drivers here: > http://www.practical.com/drivers.html > Jim Webster Hi Jim Should you ever want to fiddle with DSP's, I have made some tools to access the older soft modems that Cardinal and Digicom had. There was a ADSP2101 on the Cardinals and the Digicoms had either a ADSP2101 or a ADSP2115. As an example of how to use it, I had a radio weather-fax demodulator that I had done as class project. You'd connect it up to your short wave receiver and use some shareware code from the net to display the fax on your screen. Anyhow, if you are interested, let me know. Dwight From jwebste3 at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 7 23:39:16 1999 From: jwebste3 at bellsouth.net (JAMES WEBSTER) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:07 2005 Subject: New finds last couple days References: <199907080231.TAA01610@civic.hal.com> Message-ID: <37842B74.4CF6@bellsouth.net> > > Hi Jim > Should you ever want to fiddle with DSP's, I have made > some tools to access the older soft modems that Cardinal > and Digicom had. There was a ADSP2101 on the Cardinals > and the Digicoms had either a ADSP2101 or a ADSP2115. > As an example of how to use it, I had a radio weather-fax > demodulator that I had done as class project. You'd connect > it up to your short wave receiver and use some shareware > code from the net to display the fax on your screen. > Anyhow, if you are interested, let me know. > Dwight Dwight, That is pretty cool! But WAY over my head. I am not very electronics savey. And didn't start into computers until 1988, at 30 years old. I did manage to teach myself assembly language programming, though. The Disk Editor version at my Home Page is more current: http://hotfiles.zdnet.com/cgi-bin/texis/swlib/hotfiles/info.html?fcode=000Q5F http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Sector/7256/ And speaking of Digicom, if anyone owns a Creative Labs Modem/PhoneBlaster modem, that is who made it. And they actually support these modems better than Creative Labs does. http://www.digicomsys.com/techsupp/dlmb.html Jim Webster From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jul 7 22:15:31 1999 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:45:08 2005 Subject: IMSAI (moving along...) Message-ID: <199907080315.AA07600@world.std.com> <> put in the INDUSTRIAL MICRO SYSTEMS 8K MEMORY BD. <